========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 21:37:12 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: How to explain a picture to a dead hare* In-Reply-To: <002e01c268fb$d0bde0e0$6601a8c0@Michael> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v546) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How to explain a picture to a dead hare* I will never know the half of you. I will never know the other half of the other half that has disappeared. I will never know that that I walk though that I never walked though. I will be able to never know half of you whom I will never know. I will never know the other half of the other half which disappeared. I will never speak about the river or another like that I, that I will never know. torment me-but do not grant me your favors. drench me in language that dissipates leave me nothing I want to know your definition so I can set it ablaze and taste you ashes I am working on a concept of where I have been I am working on a concept of where I am so I can destroy it along with those object I bought yesterday I want to know the tree that is the earth in the star forecast dream of the dreamer in the river lost over the edge of a table that was only a thought as I turn to you and try to speak drench me in language that was only a concept of a concept of your ashes. I want to know your definition so I can know the dream. *from Joseph Beuys ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 21:47:48 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: joey wagner Comments: To: 7-11@mail.ljudmila.org, ImitationPoetics@listserv.unc.edu, o-o@konf.lt, webartery@yahoogroups.com, salasin@scn.org, syndicate@anart.no, _arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit JOEY WAGNER INKJET #002 [excerpt] www.amazon-salon.com Misgivings feet whole city province whole best the lane Nor wanting other longer stretching legs like puts swept crest instant tottered limitations owing natural yachting- nothing better following plan girl entered shop causing the chains girl entered shop weights chillness passing while spoke swept zenith hung moment honest men Nay few mystic girl entered shop sat up advent setting book postern arms back abroad free Saturday All now knees gods whether dare urge young man noticing Alexi look sam another brilliant ray intense Up up went--scores feet Losberne arrived hard said decry record makers United manhood very name chivalry straining eyes play light Virgin Olá turned ran May God keep heart pure noble ned favourable position affairs Up up went--scores feet centuries back real truth remind needs sign infatuation the girl entered shop occupied himself alternately can't confusion breast each all driven away curses renewed improvement customers ability remind needs sign infatuation All three agreed again president clinton names cruz bustamante as position occupied himself alternately dozen armed men Long live anyway can't occupied himself alternately force protection operations we're radiance MESSENGER earth- vertical edge vertical edge the high shrill humming All now knees gods whether the dildo manhood very name chivalry limitations owing natural serene gaze took undisturbed attaching heavily pavement notice taken loosely hear boys Linda wants fuck different soul must come preparation UTA helps prepare improvement customers ability may smile may give kind word unbelieving stared answer summons crossed second the smiled each other reflection burden light became embers Losberne arrived hard said Being Roman citizen yourself afforded stong confirmatory improvement customers ability action came stout enough the Army Ordnance Center School wonder-working brush Andrea réné succeeded countenance convincing these shorts ten years still now having very outset frank malady reach till many days vehicles provide instant wounding crew thing neither better nor worse admission Gian Maria task community said Nix Only nutsack these shorts ten years still postern Oh God forbid exclaimed blacks who served lapped Army Ordnance Center School admission Gian Maria task balls companion occupied himself alternately Recollect old Horace Suis et inscrutable Anirvachanee Maya Once starts pretty much like many moments Father David backseat twat wondering next whip off improvement customers ability centuries back real truth Being Roman citizen yourself Awards decorations Medal Honor shamed unutterably think tia bouncing consequence increase girl entered shop troll kindergarten kobold as Haiti Sept May favourable position affairs julie Losberne arrived hard said opened asked Keith hoarse whisper limitations owing natural Gonzaga smiled gathering lie another twenty hours heavily pavement notice taken sting seek disclose Eastern Campaign Medal World swept crest instant tottered --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.391 / Virus Database: 222 - Release Date: 9/19/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 21:50:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: bert folsom Comments: To: 7-11@mail.ljudmila.org, ImitationPoetics@listserv.unc.edu, o-o@konf.lt, webartery@yahoogroups.com, salasin@scn.org, syndicate@anart.no, _arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BERT FOLSOM SLAP or MARINE SLURRY HAZARD EFFECT #004 [excerpt] www.atlantic-ploughshares.com sometimes deceive wished Very true William wonder empaled children kept mother rather think great tribute only Fort grosser problems result lack discovered refresh themselves set off honor nor promised gain well prudent Rodney who previously treated bladder Pentiel replied Ready Now nerves other parts way McKinney behalf contradict within hour Yet worse nonhealth nonmilitary none all tutor young kid during investigation all pieces tail Well heard captain McKinney Hoster first Basically competitors want Navajos Marines never taken Mendoza call France great leave theatre Instantly separate pleasure vice who Every day through heat softly swinging madness smile more sinister Trouble jumped hard digging paws hollow corral bulge Pentiel replied Ready Now broke separate pleasure vice who cave enlarged hand man Cove port bound embarked loose William Juno set off lived wits nothing able form counterproductive Part Well heard captain One earlier build self sway one turned put arms neck eyes make saith himself Blessed earliest childhood longed live little more time Cyrus Agency devil details policy whole body yet foot arm un all pieces messy provisions knapsack having rolled clit thick cock slid did away directly lived wits nothing able form Well heard captain eyes Every day through heat rolled clit thick cock slid all data streams symbolic may fever yet health suffer almost frozen sure person stunned separate pleasure vice who move body whispering touches wo Twice only paused all entire whole mind seems united kimi 'll teach entire whole mind seems united get much exposure adult life all pieces past veteran Hoster first met you'll think competent especially none all tutor young kid each want Cove port bound embarked twat chastity become receptacle obligations center far persuaded business Challenging history Navajo rumours missed truth wildly Pentiel replied Ready Now McKinney Hoster first water every day shall co-workers planned go club Basically competitors want increase weight carry Now roxy McKinney Hoster first cleaning cellar-closets crowded world Quite opposite questions ballers Versailles itself whilst long chaired Raymond Kammer satisfied good high-profile exercise wide imminent honor nor promised gain consorted all pieces establishing those more some other all these still damp shower wearing sexy honor nor promised gain cuffed Well heard captain dear mother Pentiel sister very small soon forgot think great tribute only Fort Ropes down sometimes deceive wished some people consider weakness enabled terrorist key escrow Military Academy West Point thing look forward gotten ones Well heard captain modernization projects whose work none all tutor young kid throat dry drinking does harm paroxysm grief sight son all pieces Mom barely utter through market-rate besides instead horrible giant came dropsical body only speak Julie legs apart entered purest Well heard captain stars towers all other pimpled separate pleasure vice who blushed as Pentiel --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.391 / Virus Database: 222 - Release Date: 9/19/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 01:25:53 -0400 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Pavement Saw Press Subject: fortune for you MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Estrella’s Prophecies This month you will be called a capitalist. Do not worry, empty history of its meaning, so that actions proceeding from entirely different motives and agendas become indistinguishable as instances of individual preference. Call this Speilbergism. Choose anything for a slogan. No matter the occasion the cheesiest is the only choice for your young Chucky. Expect eminent paving by any domain necessary. Choosy mothers choose Jif, you unpromoted peanut eating scum. The upper crust of pro-choice advocates chose democratic leaders. Cop another slotted coin and I will tell more, readers. Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus OH 43206 USA http://pavementsaw.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 06:37:01 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wild Honey Press Subject: Re: hole poems? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Interesting question. I leafed through Apollinaire's Calligrammes which had a couple of candidates, but not quite in your sense. The format came through perfectly on my machine. Perhaps off topic, but what sprang to my mind was Yeats 12 line poems, like No Second Troy, which I think of as Shakespearean sonnets without the couplet at the end, unresolved, irresolute even, the hole in the semantic scheme very attractive to me. best Randolph Healy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 02:59:05 -0400 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: [BI] m&r...SCAPEGOATS OF EMPIRE... (fwd) -------- Forwarded message -------- Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 02:52:49 -0400 From: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Reply-to: nudel-soho@mindspring.com To: insider@lists.bookfinder.com Subject: [BI] m&r...SCAPEGOATS OF EMPIRE... Soho is deserted....the lux goods lie on the shelves..the shop girls legs bent go out for a smoke each hour on the clock...i'm a ghost of a time past...invisible like the fine dust of W.T.C...the hip young have fled to points north Williamsburg..south Hoboken...and back to Ma's Couch...bizness is not awful..it is not existent...i will fight on this line if it takes all summer..how long can i last..till i'm fine dust..a cinder in the sun.. Scapegoats of Empire is the most matched book i've ever had...68 and counting...a legendary retrieval from 20 years or reading AB...where the Aus/NZ wanted it and wanted it week after week...mine is the reprint..supposedly only 7 advance author's copies exist...who is Breaker Morant & who is Drn...if i find the dodo bird and the 8th copy on the 8th day...i'll go to where all the legends of the sun go...go down..go down..DRn... __________________________________________________________________________ BookFinder Insider -- http://lists.bookfinder.com/mailman/listinfo/insider ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 03:02:14 -0400 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: Hitler hated arabs, blacks...etc... (fwd) -------- Forwarded message -------- Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 10:49:30 -0400 From: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Reply-to: nudel-soho@mindspring.com To: Poetics@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu Subject: Hitler hated arabs, blacks...etc... to the non-maori not-anti-semitic non Mr. Taylor...just as a matter of historical record...the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem...the arab head of Palestine..sat out WWII in Berlin as a guest of Hitler....apres moi le pan Arabizism...DRn.. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 10:14:03 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lawrence Upton Subject: Re: Amiri Baraka in the NY Times Report from NZ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit No worries L ----- Original Message ----- From: "richard.tylr" To: Sent: 01 October 2002 03:15 Subject: Re: Amiri Baraka in the NY Times Report from NZ | PLEASE DISREGARD EVERYTHING I SAY. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 00:53:05 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew Rathmann Subject: Re: Perelman's interview In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I wonder what Bob Perelman means when he uses the word "democratic," as he does in this quotation from the interview: "For me and for most of Language Writers, I think, there is a strongly felt democratic urge. Language Writing has certainly been accused in the States of being elitist and intellectual. But throughout the range of forms, tones and genres that Language Writers have used, or are still using, there is a fairly constant sense of trying to sniff out transcendental and totalizing poetic approaches, and to critique them." Perelman here, as elsewhere, makes a tacit comparison between totalitarian political authority and "totalizing" poetic authorship. I take it that his real grievance is with writers who will not admit of possible objections to their views. I assume that he has Pound in mind. But to focus on Pound is to disregard the great value of "totalizing poetic approaches" within the European tradition: Dante, Shakespeare, and Goethe (to take only the most obvious cases) all offer perspectives so comprehensive as to be "total." Perhaps it is a mistake to assume, as Perelman seems to assume and as, in fact, most postwar writers assumed, that totalizing poets will always try to legitimate their authority by appealing to political ideologies or orthodox religions. Shakespeare would seem to be the classic counter-example. And, in fact, the 20th-century "innovative tradition" contains significant totalizers: Duncan and Dorn might be two important examples. Democracy is the rule of the majority, and anyone professing a "democratic urge" must of course reject authoritarian political approaches. But, personally, I read poetry for its authority, even for its authority on political and religious questions. The notion that authors should surrender an authority that is based, ultimately, on unusual skill in the use of words, doesn't seem "democratic." It seems like self-immolation. Andy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 04:43:13 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: Hawaii 5-o In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v546) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hawaii 5-o Biscayne, FL 33129 Sandwiched between Biscayne Bay a bit=20= south of Biscayne Bay which fills with snakes, birds, insects; 10=20 acres of Retired Persons sponsors refresher courses for beating =20= Be Wild' playing in the Bayside Biscayne Bay Coral Castle . =20 [Author's Note: 150 specialty shops and Drug Abuse information about=20 the way Tubb confronts Wild' Neoclassic styles; 9:30 a.m.-5 p.m.=20 first Tuesdays Alcoholics =A0 Alzheimer's Disease Support Group = Address:=A0=20 http://www.vizcayamuseum.org/sdays/ Biscayne Bay flamingos,=20= exotic birds, insects Tubbs posing as Richard Taylor Tubbs =20= dining on whales ; 9:30 a.m.-5:30 p.m. =A0 Memorial Senior Resource=20 Center=A0=A0 Ocean Dr.=A0Hollywood, FL. =A0Time & Date Info: Ocean = Dr.=A0.=20 first Wednesdays Alcohol and prices vary Transit=20 Planetarium Ocean Dr.=A0 Miami Metrozoo Ocean Dr. =A0 Ave.=A0Miami,= =20 FL. =A0Time & Date Info:=A0 Ocean Dr.=A0 (box office closes 4 p.m.); = =20 $15.95 for beating McCarthy by New Hope C.O.R.P.S., which has a pool.=20= http://www.venetianpool.com/ Vizcaya Museum & Date Info: Biscayne Bay =20= ( skimming money off exotic locales over holiday weekends; =20= also sponsors refresher courses for insurance discou Biscayne=20= Bay :=A0 First Baptist Church of Ocean Dr. created single-handedly by=20= Latvian immigrant Ed Leedskalnin on the beach with McCarthy, Sonny into=20= outdoor wildlife closes at various Biscayne Bay Resource Centers= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 12:49:00 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lakey Teasdale Subject: poem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit TRAVELLING LIGHT From this moment on & forward she will travel light. Illusions cost nothing & you can fold them small like after-dinner mints & eat them. See here, the plot doesn't thicken. It just saunters along, yes & solo. Because we gotta be quick, we gotta go better & go. Here's a wrench. You can just tighten the gears. There are horizons to worry about, neglected archaeological sites, not to mention the weather. Who has time for all of this Afternoon of a Faun and what's it to you? Magic? Forget it. All done with mirrors. This may be la dolce vita but even if they are not looking it just doesn't pay to call a conventicle. Never mind brass: tack again & stone the crows. No. Hasn't read Lives of the Saints. Somebody took her copy of Lives of the Great Poisoners, but she knows a guy who will get her another cheap. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 08:30:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Amiri Baraka in the NY Times Report from NZ In-Reply-To: <20020930202026.43654.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" hilton has sensible things to say here. i am a very big fan of baraka's, but he is sometimes off-base and this is one of those times. however, there were lots of similar claims being made about the attack being a zionist conspiracy in emails that were circulating after 9/11, including claims that Jews who worked in the WTC were called beforehand and warned not to go to work. -- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 08:36:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Rimbaud in jeans In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20021001071206.01904ae8@pop3.norton.antivirus> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" shoot; i've got the postcard in mpls, but i'm in massachusetts. the info shouldn't be too hard for you to track down tho --i think i've seen the postcard at city lights bookstore in sf. At 7:13 AM +1000 10/1/02, John Tranter wrote: >Five years ago in a book review I mentioned this cultural icon: > > "A photograph of Rimbaud (retouched to show him > wearing jeans) graced the barricades of the student revolt > in Paris in May 1968." > >Now a Jacket reader would like to trace the image. >I know a photo postcard was based on the image about ten years ago. >Does anyone on the list have any more information? > >Thanks... apologies for cross-posting... > > John Tranter, Jacket magazine -- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 08:01:34 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: Re: Hawaii 5-o In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v546) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tuesday, October 1, 2002, at 04:43 AM, kari edwards wrote: > From: kari edwards > Date: Tue Oct 1, 2002 4:43:13 AM US/Pacific > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Hawaii 5-o > Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group > > Hawaii 5-o > > Biscayne, FL 33129 Sandwiched between Biscayne Bay a=20 > bit south of Biscayne Bay which fills with snakes, birds, insects; =20= > 10 acres of Retired Persons sponsors refresher courses for beating =20= > Be Wild' playing in the Bayside Biscayne Bay Coral Castle . =20= > [Author's Note: 150 specialty shops and Drug Abuse information about=20= > the way Tubb confronts Wild' Neoclassic styles; 9:30 a.m.-5 p.m.=20 > first Tuesdays Alcoholics =A0 Alzheimer's Disease Support Group=20 > Address:=A0 http://www.vizcayamuseum.org/sdays/ Biscayne Bay = =20 > flamingos, exotic birds, insects Tubbs posing as Richard Taylor =20= > Tubbs dining on whales ; 9:30 a.m.-5:30 p.m. =A0 Memorial Senior=20= > Resource Center=A0=A0 Ocean Dr.=A0Hollywood, FL. =A0Time & Date = Info:=20 > Ocean Dr.=A0. first Wednesdays Alcohol and prices vary =20 > Transit Planetarium Ocean Dr.=A0 Miami Metrozoo Ocean Dr. =A0=20= > Ave.=A0Miami, FL. =A0Time & Date Info:=A0 Ocean Dr.=A0 (box office = closes 4=20 > p.m.); $15.95 for beating McCarthy by New Hope C.O.R.P.S.,=20= > which has a pool. http://www.venetianpool.com/ Vizcaya Museum & Date=20= > Info: Biscayne Bay ( skimming money off exotic locales=20 > over holiday weekends; also sponsors refresher courses for=20= > insurance discou Biscayne Bay :=A0 First Baptist Church of Ocean Dr.=20= > created single-handedly by Latvian immigrant Ed Leedskalnin on the=20 > beach with McCarthy, Sonny into outdoor wildlife closes at various =20= > Biscayne Bay Resource Centers ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 10:15:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: Typhoid Virginia Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed This is my last voyage of wit and taste, fashion gratifies the sublime You, Madison Cawein, have every scrap of paper connected to this connection of your (an architect for a dramatist!), the first of which stores anecdotes for military service while coal receives revival at the Cawein dinner table Every scrap of information bears a wine dealer to your concrete bunker marriage mistaken to commemorate this formidable bicycle saluted by ovation fraternally tangible, phantasmagoria remained inert, a fifth-floor walkup without tarot training - Madison Cawein, extricate yourself from such parts the woodbine must remember - it is up to you to become the Christopher Columbus of forgetfulness On a scale of unromantic rhythms Virginia's beauty when the lights are polarized provokes a trying shame Cawein, the wound of morning came while you were preoccupied with war-torn gratifications - it's always found in the last place you'd think to look _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 10:22:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: Virginia, It's Getting So Dark In Here My Eyes Hurt Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Virginia's guise has shifted from an alarm to a doll migration has brought imagination neatly dried & well-bred, red-hot & undisguised, soiled & taken down an honest heart craftily three-score (d---n him!) several times, to her consternation, his brain had given place to fortune, inquiries overgrown with apprehension this news has gone to decay shall we pretend the sky killed our pool of blood? I have elbows not even YOU can dishonor my liberty is drawing toward silence a season's crime cudgeled into a deep sleep prayers thus amazed saw each new face in my eyes I don't have a stick to burn against this cold... what if Portugal's history asks about me? What then? _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 11:27:48 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: schwartzgk Subject: Re: Typhoid Virginia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Phantasmagorically great! Is there more? More , sir, please. Gerald Schwartz ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harrison Jeff" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 11:15 AM Subject: Typhoid Virginia > This is my last voyage of wit and taste, fashion gratifies the sublime > You, Madison Cawein, have every scrap of paper connected to > this connection of your (an architect for a dramatist!), the > first of which stores anecdotes for military service while > coal receives revival at the Cawein dinner table > Every scrap of information bears a wine dealer to your > concrete bunker > marriage mistaken to commemorate this > formidable bicycle saluted by ovation > fraternally tangible, phantasmagoria remained inert, > a fifth-floor walkup without tarot training - Madison > Cawein, extricate yourself from such parts the > woodbine must remember - > it is up to you to become the > Christopher Columbus of forgetfulness > On a scale of unromantic rhythms Virginia's beauty when > the lights are polarized provokes a trying shame > Cawein, the wound of morning came while > you were preoccupied with war-torn gratifications - > it's always found in the last place you'd think to look > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 08:38:56 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hilton Obenzinger Subject: Re: Hitler hated arabs, blacks...etc... (fwd) Comments: To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I suggest that people refrain from playing this game. This is an old dead-end in discussing the conflict in the Middle East, and anyone can play it. Yes, the Grand Mufti, seeing Germany as an ally against Britain and Jewish colonization, made his alliance. It's also true that former Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir's Stern Gang attempted to make an alliance with the Nazis against the British, offering that the Jewish state in Palestine would be an ally against Britain. Jabotinsky, Begin's mentor, was an admirer of Mussolini. Was there an exploratory investigation to Palestine sponsored jointly by the German government and Zionist organizations to explore German sponsorship of the Zionist project as their solution to their perceive Jewish problem in the 1930s? Yes, and oddly enough, a medallion was struck with a swastika on one side and a star of David on the other. How's that for a souvenir? Do certain Arab governments promote "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" as authentic and not a hoax (and if anyone knows anything about Jewish religious literature, it doesn't take much to detect how un-Jewish the "Protocols" are)? You bet. We can go on and on. There are horrible alliances with reasons and rationales for everyone on both sides. There are crimes for everyone, blood on everyone's hands. Hilton > to the non-maori not-anti-semitic non Mr. Taylor...just as a matter of >historical record...the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem...the arab head of >Palestine..sat out WWII in Berlin as a guest of Hitler....apres moi >le pan Arabizism...DRn.. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hilton Obenzinger, PhD. Associate Director of Undergraduate Research Programs for Honors Writing Lecturer, Department of English Stanford University 650.723.0330 650.724.5400 Fax obenzinger@stanford.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 16:41:39 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lakey Teasdale Subject: Virginia of an Evening Grey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Virginia of an Evening Grey transpose an evening glass grey glass adagio the evening and adagio Virginia, the velvet red gown, read hot. the brown? another velvet jacket paged the page grey murmuring like a canopy a grey glass canopy she, in velvet red or brown burnished gold furnish against grey. in morning news monks chant a prayer another morning's news, chant another and the glass grey? the pleasant awning canopy of glass adagio glass of grey no red chimera and yet another read hot the other undisguised there are no prophets only those who yearn for prophecy and one interpretation grows and one grows with new interpretation yearning an evening tide grows and not one interpretation follows another grows with each interpretation we yearn. we recall yearning. ride on, ride on: one interpretation delivers another reveals & seals agreements there are covenants and there is yearning for yearning & you are: there. In history you are. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 12:29:08 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: Somebody INDEED Blew Up America MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This poem is "incoherent"? C'mon, it's pretty damn straight-forward, and he might just be the most sane one of us around. It wasn't 4000 people, but two (employees of Odigo), that were IM'ed the morning of 9/11 about the attacks, and they contacted the FBI. The story was reported in Newsbytes (a subsidiary of the Washington Post) on 27 September 2001. Baraka got his "facts wrong" perhaps but is that really what's at issue in READING A POEM which should NEVER be treated as strictly FACT OR FICTION. Hyperbole isn't exactly incoherence, just "artistic license," especially when it comes to poetry. And that's what we expect from many great poets, some license, isn't it? People talk about paranoid. Talk talk talk. If you think the poem is anti-Israeli (or anti-Semitic), read the poem again. I think you might begin to get Baraka's point (if you can read poetry) with the following word: Who Clearly Baraka is NOT saying the answer to that question is "Israelis." If you think that that IS what he is saying, you've clearly missed the point of the poem. I'll try again: Who killed the most niggers Who killed the most Jews Who killed the most Italians Who killed the most Irish Who killed the most Africans Who killed the most Japanese Who killed the most Latinos Who? Who? Who? He's covering/constructing some sort of archetype out of a series of crimes over time, as he's covering one century to the next. Poets CAN sometimes do this, you know. The DEVIL. And the power of the poem is not calling all Xs devils...it rests within the tacitly prescriptive notion that those who commit horrific crimes against humanity are that devil. It is a "pay attention to evil" poem, and no one does this better than Baraka. And it is a "you're evil too if you're part of it" poem. the poem implicates people of all sorts, Belgians, British, Americans, people from different times and places. Our president George Bush is implicated in this poem. Bush isn't Israeli. The reader is required to have enough imagination to be able to bridge these seemingly disparate unnamed people together. WHO? Somebody indeed blew up America, and somebody's going to do it again, and they're going to try to convince us that robbing Muslims blind and murdering them will be the appropriate response. All we need is the question to identify them: who? Who are they going to try to convince? Who? And who are "they" exactly? Who? In poetry, sometimes the question bears much more "information" than any answer. Patrick Herron "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - Raoul Duke ***************************************************** Somebody Blew Up America They say its some terrorist, some barbaric A Rab, in Afghanistan It wasn't our American terrorists It wasn't the Klan or the Skin heads Or the them that blows up nigger Churches, or reincarnates us on Death Row It wasn't Trent Lott Or David Duke or Giuliani Or Schundler, Helms retiring It wasn't The gonorrhea in costume The white sheet diseases That have murdered black people Terrorized reason and sanity Most of humanity, as they pleases They say (who say?) Who do the saying Who is them paying Who tell the lies Who in disguise Who had the slaves Who got the bux out the Bucks Who got fat from plantations Who genocided Indians Tried to waste the Black nation Who live on Wall Street The first plantation Who cut your nuts off Who rape your ma Who lynched your pa Who got the tar, who got the feathers Who had the match, who set the fires Who killed and hired Who say they God & still be the Devil Who the biggest only Who the most goodest Who do Jesus resemble Who created everything Who the smartest Who the greatest Who the richest Who say you ugly and they the goodlookingest Who define art Who define science Who made the bombs Who made the guns Who bought the slaves, who sold them Who called you them names Who say Dahmer wasn't insane Who? Who? Who? Who stole Puerto Rico Who stole the Indies, the Philipines, Manhattan Australia & The Hebrides Who forced opium on the Chinese Who own them buildings Who got the money Who think you funny Who locked you up Who own the papers Who owned the slave ship Who run the army Who the fake president Who the ruler Who the banker Who? Who? Who? Who own the mine Who twist your mind Who got bread Who need peace Who you think need war Who own the oil Who do no toil Who own the soil Who is not a nigger Who is so great ain't nobody bigger Who own this city Who own the air Who own the water Who own your crib Who rob and steal and cheat and murder and make lies the truth Who call you uncouth Who live in the biggest house Who do the biggest crime Who go on vacation anytime Who killed the most niggers Who killed the most Jews Who killed the most Italians Who killed the most Irish Who killed the most Africans Who killed the most Japanese Who killed the most Latinos Who? Who? Who? Who own the ocean Who own the airplanes Who own the malls Who own television Who own radio Who own what ain't even known to be owned Who own the owners that ain't the real owners Who own the suburbs Who suck the cities Who make the laws Who made Bush president Who believe the confederate flag need to be flying Who talk about democracy and be lying Who the Beast in Revelations Who 666 Who know who decide Jesus get crucified Who the Devil on the real side Who got rich from Armenian genocide Who the biggest terrorist Who change the bible Who killed the most people Who do the most evil Who don't worry about survival Who have the colonies Who stole the most land Who rule the world Who say they good but only do evil Who the biggest executioner Who? Who? Who? Who own the oil Who want more oil Who told you what you think that later you find out a lie Who? Who? Who? Who found Bin Laden, maybe they Satan Who pay the CIA, Who knew the bomb was gonna blow Who know why the terrorists Learned to fly in Florida, San Diego Who know why Five Israelis was filming the explosion And cracking they sides at the notion Who need fossil fuel when the sun ain't goin' nowhere Who make the credit cards Who get the biggest tax cut Who walked out of the Conference Against Racism Who killed Malcolm, Kennedy & his Brother Who killed Dr King, Who would want such a thing? Are they linked to the murder of Lincoln? Who invaded Grenada Who made money from apartheid Who keep the Irish a colony Who overthrow Chile and Nicaragua later Who killed David Sibeko, Chris Hani, the same ones who killed Biko, Cabral, Neruda, Allende, Che Guevara, Sandino, Who killed Kabila, the ones who wasted Lumumba, Mondlane, Betty Shabazz, Die, Princess Di, Ralph Featherstone, Little Bobby Who locked up Mandela, Dhoruba, Geronimo, Assata, Mumia, Garvey, Dashiell Hammett, Alphaeus Hutton Who killed Huey Newton, Fred Hampton, Medgar Evers, Mikey Smith, Walter Rodney, Was it the ones who tried to poison Fidel Who tried to keep the Vietnamese Oppressed Who put a price on Lenin's head Who put the Jews in ovens, and who helped them do it Who said "America First" and ok'd the yellow stars Who killed Rosa Luxembourg, Liebneckt Who murdered the Rosenbergs And all the good people iced, tortured, assassinated, vanished Who got rich from Algeria, Libya, Haiti, Iran, Iraq, Saudi, Kuwait, Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Jordan, Palestine, Who cut off peoples hands in the Congo Who invented Aids Who put the germs In the Indians' blankets Who thought up "The Trail of Tears" Who blew up the Maine & started the Spanish American War Who got Sharon back in Power Who backed Batista, Hitler, Bilbo, Chiang kai Chek Who decided Affirmative Action had to go Reconstruction, The New Deal, The New Frontier, The Great Society, Who do Tom Ass Clarence Work for Who doo doo come out the Colon's mouth Who know what kind of Skeeza is a Condoleeza Who pay Connelly to be a wooden negro Who give Genius Awards to Homo Locus Subsidere Who overthrew Nkrumah, Bishop, Who poison Robeson, who try to put DuBois in Jail Who frame Rap Jamil al Amin, Who frame the Rosenbergs, Garvey, The Scottsboro Boys, The Hollywood Ten Who set the Reichstag Fire Who knew the World Trade Center was gonna get bombed Who told 4000 Israeli workers at the Twin Towers To stay home that day Why did Sharon stay away? Who? Who? Who? Explosion of Owl the newspaper say The devil face cd be seen Who make money from war Who make dough from fear and lies Who want the world like it is Who want the world to be ruled by imperialism and national oppression and terror violence, and hunger and poverty. Who is the ruler of Hell? Who is the most powerful Who you know ever Seen God? But everybody seen The Devil Like an Owl exploding In your life in your brain in your self Like an Owl who know the devil All night, all day if you listen, Like an Owl Exploding in fire. We hear the questions rise In terrible flame like the whistle of a crazy dog Like the acid vomit of the fire of Hell Who and Who and WHO who who Whoooo and Whooooooooooooooooooooo! Copyright (c) 2001 Amiri Baraka. All Rights Reserved. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 10:38:02 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wright Laura E Subject: Reading in Boulder Oct. 5: Owen Hill & Michael Price MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Announcing a special reading this Saturday, Oct. 5 8:00 at the Left Hand Bookstore (1200 Pearl St. #10) in Boulder with OWEN HILL AND MICHAEL PRICE Admission is free; donations will be gladly accepted. Owen Hill is the author of six slim volumes of poetry and a book of short stories, Loose Ends (Thumbscrew Press, San Francisco). This is his first novel. He lives in Berkeley Ca. Reading from The Chandler Apartments, a damn good poet's noir novel... and michael price, reading from novel in progress. The fulcrum is thus: mystery and intrigue ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 10:42:48 -0230 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K.Angelo Hehir" Subject: New from Running the Goat Comments: cc: "CPA Listserv@" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Running the Goat Books & Broadsides is pleased to announce its newest publication "Chapel Street Torque" a poemphlet combining the work of Michael Crummey and Gerald Squires. Michael Crummey's "Chapel Street Torque" is accompanied by an image created in response to the poem by Gerald Squires. The text is set in 13 point Bembo; poem and image are printed letterpress on Arches text paper. The cover is Classic Linen and the endpapers are sagami. The poemphlet is handsewn, and measures 6 inches by 13 inches. Numbered and signed by author and artist. Edition limited to 150. Price is $20, plus shipping. Running the Goat publications are also available at Devon House Craft Gallery, in downtown St. John's. Running the Goat is also pleased to distribute a limited edition dry-point etching by Gerald Squires with letterpress poem by Des Walsh. Printed for Christmas 1993, very few of these exquisite prints remain. For more information, please contact Marnie Parsons. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 13:35:21 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Landers, Susan" Subject: announcement Comments: To: "dc_poets@yahoogroups.com" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Issue 2 of POM2 is now available online at www.pompompress.com. We welcome submissions on an ongoing basis. See the Web site for submission guidelines. Sincerely, Allison Cobb, Jen Coleman, Ethan Fugate, and Sue Landers Editors ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 14:45:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Craig Allen Conrad Subject: "YOU ARE EITHER WITH US, OR YOU ARE FIRED!" a letter from Michael Moore Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=-------3f00560473faabfe3f00560473faabfe Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ---------3f00560473faabfe3f00560473faabfe Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Disposition: inline Michael Moore's latest documentary BOWLING FOR COLUMBINE is the first documentary to win the Cannes Film Festival since 1956. It opens in the states this month. Below is his latest letter, complete with petition. Scroll down. ---------3f00560473faabfe3f00560473faabfe Content-Type: message/rfc822; name="Forwarded Msg" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="Forwarded Msg" Content-Description: Forwarded Msg Return-Path: Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 14:38:29 -0400 From: CAConrad13 To: CAConrad9 Subject: Fwd: "YOU ARE EITHER WITH US, OR YOU ARE FIRED!" Message-ID: <010B7B0E.3497D617.09C1149F@aol.com> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=-------12a3a2634b6952f12a3a2634b6952f Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 ---------12a3a2634b6952f12a3a2634b6952f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Disposition: inline SCROLL DOWN TO READ MICHAEL MOORE'S LETTER ---------12a3a2634b6952f12a3a2634b6952f Content-Type: message/rfc822; name="Forwarded Msg" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="Forwarded Msg" Content-Description: Forwarded Msg Return-Path: Received: from rly-zd04.mx.aol.com (rly-zd04.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.228]) by air-zd02.mail.aol.com (v89.10) with ESMTP id MAILINZD23-1001110815; Tue, 01 Oct 2002 11:08:15 -0400 Received: from michaelmoore.com ([207.164.167.226]) by rly-zd04.mx.aol.com (v89.10) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINZD47-1001110757; Tue, 01 Oct 2002 11:07:57 -0400 Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 11:07:54 -0400 From: "Michael Moore's Mailing List" Message-ID: To: "CAConrad13@aol.com" Subject: "YOU ARE EITHER WITH US, OR YOU ARE FIRED!" X-Mailer: eMerge 1.65 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit October 1, 2002 "YOU ARE EITHER WITH US, OR YOU ARE FIRED!" Dear Friends, I was going to write you a letter about what a pathetic liar George W, Bush is -- but then I figured, hey, why waste your time telling you something you already know! You already know that his planned invasion of Iraq is a ruse meant to distract the public from the real issues, those issues being the following: 1. The number of people unemployed since he "took" office has risen by 35%. 2. We had a federal SURPLUS of $281 billion when he was inaugurated; today we have a DEFICIT of $157 billion. 3. TWO MILLION jobs have been eliminated since Bush began his occupation of the Oval Office. 4. The stock market is down 34% since January of 2001. 5. Another 1.4 million people now have NO health insurance, making it a total of over 41 million Americans who can't afford to get sick. 6. Only 13 corporate crooks out of HUNDREDS have been indicted, and none of them have been the close personal friends of Mr. Bush. THOSE are the real issues facing us, not some phony excuse for a war. But, like I said, you already know that. You know that Bush is lying through his smirk when he says Iraq has "weapons of mass destruction." He has not offered one shred of evidence to prove this. Not one! You know he is lying when he says that there is a "connection" between Saddam and bin Laden. Even members of his own administration have admitted that is not true. It's just one lie after another, and I applaud those three congressmen who went to Iraq this week and told it like it is -- and demanded that the sanctions which have already killed a half-million Iraqi children be ended. Sen. Trent Lott said "they should come home and keep their mouths shut." I say, we need more damn Democrats with that kind of courage and with mouths like that! Which brings me to the real point of this letter. The Democrats. I have never seen a more lame bunch of cowards and appeasers in my life. They are ready to bow down before Bush and give him what he wants to wage war against Iraq. This pathetic excuse of a party is an embarrassment to us all. The fact that they let Robert Torricelli run for re-election in New Jersey, knowing how dirty he was, shows just how capable they are of handing the Senate over to Bush and the Republicans come November. They have blown it over and over again, and lots of good people I know who keep putting their faith in the Democrats are just giving up -- and that is the worst thing to happen in a free society. What are we going to do? Left to their own devices, the Democrats will not only hand both the House and the Senate to the Republicans in November, they will guarantee that Bush gets his second undeserved term in 2004. We must not let that happen. This year's election was theirs for the taking. Just look at the state of the union Bush gave us: Bush cronies caught stealing from the corporate till, Bush and Cheney caught breaking the law in the '90s, the economy in the toilet, and Bush failing to do the only real job he had to do since 9/11: Get bin Laden! What a disgrace! Yet the Democrats could not even find enough candidates to offer a REAL challenge to the Republicans in nearly 200 House districts for the November 5th elections. What an appalling excuse of a party. OK, I know, there is not much we can do about this now. But we all need to get busy and ensure that this whole rotten system is rocked by the disgruntled millions come election day 2004. Otherwise, we have no right to complain. In the meantime, we must stop the Bush attack on Iraq. We must find out now, as W says, "who is wid us and who is agin us." I am asking each of you to please sign the petition I have posted here (http://www.michaelmoore.com/petitions/peacepledge/index.php) and on my website (www.michaelmoore.com) informing the Democrats that whoever amongst them votes for this war, we pledge NEVER to vote for them again. I will personally see that your on-line signatures are delivered to every member of Congress. I guarantee your voice will be heard loud and clear. Go to http://www.michaelmoore.com/petitions/peacepledge/index.php and sign the petition to the Democrats: "You're Either With Us Or You're Fired." Then let's figure out together what we can do to turn things around by 2004. Thanks for taking the time to do this. We have no other choice. Yours, Michael Moore P.S. The wonderful, heartfelt letters sent to me regarding my mom's passing continue to fill my mailbox from so many of you. Thank you very much -- you don't know what it has meant to me. I am sorry I have not been able to be very active or public in the past couple of months, so please accept my apologies and my thanks for your understanding. Next week, I have to get back to work -- it is time for my film to bust its way into theaters across America. I will tell you all about it next Monday... --- If you wish to be be unsubscribed from this mailing list, please click the link below and follow the instructions. http://www.michaelmoore.com/mailing/unsubscribe.php ---------12a3a2634b6952f12a3a2634b6952f-- ---------3f00560473faabfe3f00560473faabfe-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 15:01:03 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Perelman's interview MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Don't know if Andy's fine remarks are in response to my post. Doesn't matter. For me, the emphasis is on a sense of aesthetic democracy. Perelman suggests that devices such as self/persona and narrative are present in langpo. Surely they are interrogated, as they are in other methodologies as well. But interrogation is quite different from obliteration. Of course we understand that aesthetic and biz politic strategies are intertwined. Nevertheless the foregrounding of one or the other is certainly possible as a focus for discussion. The issue of totalization is perhaps a more complicated one. Writers may shoot for the ball of wax, but they're never going to hit it--never have. All totalizations are undone from within. Understanding this, langpoets and others have re-covered the problematics of this effort to achieve the impossible. A writer such as Shakespeare or Dorn, born of their respective philosophical contexts, leave that exposition to our contemporaries. Time marches on, or something like that. Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com KojaPress.com Amazon.com BarnesandNoble.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 14:12:50 -0500 Reply-To: "swiss@uiowa" Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "swiss@uiowa" Subject: new issue:Iowa Review Web MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" TIR WEB A journal of New Media and experimental writing and art, The Iowa Review = Web is published at the University of Iowa with support from the Department of English and in collaboration with The International Writing Program and = the Iowa Review. Volume 4, Number 6 (October 2002) ************************************* NEW! Richard Kostelanetz + Remembering my Life In/Of Words Richard Kostelanetz is a writer, artist, critic, and editor who is productive in many fields. Among his works are Recyclings: A Literary Autobiography (1974, 1984), Politics in the African-American Novel (1991), Published Encomia, 1967-91 (1991), and On Innovative Art(ist)s (1992). His films include A Berlin Lost (1984) and Berlin Sche-Einena Jother (1988), both with Martin Koerber. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ NEW! The International Writing Program and the English Department Present: NEW MEDIA POETRY CONFERENCE Aesthetics, Institutions & Audiences University of Iowa, October 11-12, 2002 Critics and writers include: N. Katherine Hayles, Marjorie Perloff, = Kenneth Goldsmith, Jennifer Ley, Giselle Beiguelman, Katherine Parrish, Barrett Watten, Martin Spinelli, Loss Glazier, Alan Golding, Al Filreis,Carrie Noland, Talan Memmot, John Cayley, Stephanie Strickland,and others. Visit: +++++++++++ NEW MEDIA WRITING "V: VNIVERSE" A preview of Stephanie Strickland's new poem V (Penguin 2002), featuring V'= s Web section, V: VNIVERSE, an interview with Strickland by Jaishree K. = Odin, and a critical essay by Odin on "Image and Text: The Ballad of Sand and Harry Soot." All at: *************************************** FROM 91 MERIDIAN + Aida Nasrallah is the pen name of Mahammeed Nasra. She teaches at the = High School for the Arts in Naamat, and organized and ran a weekly salon for women poets and writers, serving as mentor for Arab women in Israel who = wish to experiment with poetry and fiction. Moccaccino with Double Solitude translated by Natasa Durovicova ************************************* FROM THE IOWA REVIEW Peter Walpole received an MFA from Western Michigan University. His work = has appeared in The Missouri Review, Indiana Review, Southern Humanities = Review, and others. Margaret Gibson is the author of seven books, most recently Icon and Evidence. Another, Autumn Grasses, is forthcoming from LSU. All at ***************************** Coming up: Interviews with New Media writers Stuart Moulthrop, Diana Slattery, and Miekal And; critic Joseph Tabbi; artists Jody Zelen and Mark Napier; and others. New work by Jody Zelen, Catlin Fisher, Talan Memmott, and others. ------------------------ The Iowa Review Web: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 20:26:46 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Lawrence Upton Subject: Bob Cobbing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Apologies for cross-posting Re the death of Bob Cobbing The Writers Forum website -now at http://pages.britishlibrary.net/writersforum/ - is being updated; and it is planned to put information there about forthcoming celebrations of Bob and so on, when it is available (Subsequently, it is intended to make it as comprehensive as possible a record of WF publications - it's already well on the way) Give it an hour or two, maybe a day, the changed files haven't yet been uploaded There will also be email announcements on some lists, but it is assumed that the great majority on *this list will not be able to do anything with detailed information about events happening in London; and we're anxious not to clutter lists Anyone who does want to hear full details could let us know by emailing writersforum@britishlibrary.net L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 15:59:07 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: IMPROITENT FACTSX MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ATTENTION REaDUR! THIS IS NOT SPAM! wE CAN BE FREINDS. IF YOU PUT ONE PENNEY IN A BANK ACCUNT TODAY AND COLLECTED ONE PERCINT INTERST ANNUALEY YOU WOULD BE A MILLONARE BY THE YEAR 3854. JUASt THINK! One MILLION DOALLARS IN YOUYRu POCKET ALL FROM ONE PENNEY! INvEST NOW! ONE QUARTER 25C WITH FIVE PERCINT ANNUALEY AND YOU HAVE ONE MILLIUN DOLLERS BY 2314. INvEST NOW! bEFOR ITS TO LATE! MY GREAT-GREAT-GREAT-GREAT-GREAT-GREAT-GREAT-GREAT-GRANDFATHUR jOHN COLYNGE put 01 ONE pENNEY in thE BALNK OF ENGLNED IN 1694 AND NOW i HAvE $3.4 MILLION PUNDS. the itersT WAS FIVE PURCENT. THAT'S LIKE 5 MILLIUN DOLERS NOW. THANKS TO HIM IM RICH! wE cAN BE FREINDS. wOW! THIS IS NOT SPAM! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 15:14:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: Re: Somebody INDEED Blew Up America In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Patrick, Jim, Well, hurumph. Perhaps the poem isn't incoherent then (as Patrick reminds me "hyperbole isn't exactly incoherence"). What a shame. But I know for sure that reading this poem does not make me think in any way that Baraka, as Patrick says, perhaps "might just be the most sane one of us around." And I do think that Baraka must be held as accountable for the assertions he makes (even in the service of his art) as those whom he opposes. Even if I oppose many of the same people he opposes. I do not know if Baraka himself is anti-Semitic or not. This poem does not strike me as anti-Semitic. More a problem with semantics, I'd say. And though Patrick's reading of the poem is helpful, I still find the poem troubling (and not in a helpful way), as it allows (through its hyperbole as well as its focus [who is being implicated here by Baraka . . . but more importantly, who is NOT being implicated by Baraka here] as well as its factual error) his critics an easy, and at least partially justified, way to dismiss him and his message, when his message does have some point. That's why I said "incoherent" earlier. (I'm now very glad I didn't say "irresponsible" which was my first reaction.) By the way, I saw Baraka several years ago with a hot little jazz band. It was an amazing show, and I thought he worked his material very well. It troubled me in interesting, helpful ways that I'll not forget. This poem is simply not of the same stuff, that's all. Best, JG ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 16:25:03 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harriet Zinnes Subject: Re: hole poems? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I loved your "the hole in the semantic scheme very attractive to me," Randolph. Wonderful! Harriet ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 16:27:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Re: Perelman's interview MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think Perelman's interview bridged a number of disputes. In reality, as opposed to theory, the 'I" of ego can't really be eliminated, but possibly it can be displaced. In much of my writing I try to achieve a kind of immediacy that relates to Sartre's non-egological conception of consciousness, in which consciousness first perceives, then later postulates the "I" to organize its perceptions. The language generated is supposed to try to capture the movement of consciousness before the "I" can structure it. Of course, I never succeed completely. It's impossible. In other cases, I "orchestrate" text so than several different but indeterminate voices are speaking in contrapuntal harmony or dissonance, as the flow of words dictates. You're right. Totalization is unavoidable. Attempts to avoid totalization (as I understand it) open more possibilities in terms of form, but these possibilities can ultimately become totalizing elements themselves. Vernon ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 3:01 PM Subject: Re: Perelman's interview > Don't know if Andy's fine remarks are in response to my post. Doesn't > matter. For me, the emphasis is on a sense of aesthetic democracy. Perelman > suggests that devices such as self/persona and narrative are present in > langpo. Surely they are interrogated, as they are in other methodologies as > well. But interrogation is quite different from obliteration. Of course we > understand that aesthetic and biz politic strategies are intertwined. > Nevertheless the foregrounding of one or the other is certainly possible as a > focus for discussion. > > The issue of totalization is perhaps a more complicated one. Writers may > shoot for the ball of wax, but they're never going to hit it--never have. > All totalizations are undone from within. Understanding this, langpoets and > others have re-covered the problematics of this effort to achieve the > impossible. A writer such as Shakespeare or Dorn, born of their respective > philosophical contexts, leave that exposition to our contemporaries. Time > marches on, or something like that. Best, Bill > > WilliamJamesAustin.com > KojaPress.com > Amazon.com > BarnesandNoble.com > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 15:53:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Patrick" Subject: Re: Levinas citation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" A few months ago someone posted, perhaps as part of their sig file, this quote below from Levinas. I'd be much obliged if someone could provide a citation for it, backchannel please. Thanks, Patrick Pritchett "Is it certain a true poet occupies a place? Is the poet not that which, in the eminent sense of the term, loses place, ceases occupation, precisely, and is thus the very opening of space..." -- Levinas ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 17:04:58 -0400 Reply-To: parrishka@sympatico.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: parrishka Subject: Re: Levinas citation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ooh, backchannel me too please, if you wouldn't mind. katherine "Pritchett,Patrick" wrote: > A few months ago someone posted, perhaps as part of their sig file, this > quote below from Levinas. I'd be much obliged if someone could provide a > citation for it, backchannel please. > > Thanks, > Patrick Pritchett > > "Is it certain a true poet occupies a place? Is the poet not that which, in > the eminent sense of the term, loses place, ceases occupation, precisely, > and is thus the very opening of space..." > -- Levinas ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 17:39:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jane Sprague Subject: Re: hole poems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable the post on Sappho's fragments in this thread got me thinking and likewise, perhaps=20 not exactly what you are seeking but worth checking out for ideas on=20 holes in general _Eros the Bittersweet_ by Anne Carson interesting sections on geometry =20 =20 Sappho the nature of fragmented text(s) as expansive, intentional specific and Maggie O'Sullivan, Carlyle Reedy and more in _Out of = Everywhere_(anthology) and Silliman's essay on Rae Armantrout in _We Who Love to Be Astonished_ = ed. Laura Hinton and Cynthia Hogue (not holes = exactly, but perhaps in a similar vein) and worth a look: Brenda Hillman_Cacsadia_ Marlene Nourbese Philip_She Tries Her Tongue, Her Silence Softly = Breaks_ -JS ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 19:01:51 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ian Randall Wilson Subject: New Issue of 88 Available! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The second issue of 88: A Journal of Contemporary American Poetry is now available. Issue 2 includes work from a number of list members: William Allegrezza Aaron Belz Bill Berkson Catherine Daly Mark DuCharme kari edwards Kevin S. Fitzgerald Eric Gelsinger Halvord Johnson Jeffrey Jullich Ravi Shankar Ron Silliman Alan Sondheim Plus essays and reviews. . . 176 pages $13.95 ISBN 0967600367 At Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0967600367/welcometoholl-20 or from fine bookstores everywhere. Ian Randall Wilson Managing Editor ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 19:08:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: New Issue of 88 Available! Comments: cc: T88AJournal@aol.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit That would be Halvard Johnson down there, methinks. Hal "I would horsewhip you if I had a horse." --Groucho Marx Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard@earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard { { The second issue of 88: A Journal of Contemporary American Poetry is now { available. Issue 2 includes work from a number of list members: { { William Allegrezza { Aaron Belz { Bill Berkson { Catherine Daly { Mark DuCharme { kari edwards { Kevin S. Fitzgerald { Eric Gelsinger { Halvord Johnson { Jeffrey Jullich { Ravi Shankar { Ron Silliman { Alan Sondheim { { Plus essays and reviews. . . { { 176 pages { $13.95 { ISBN 0967600367 { { At Amazon: { { http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0967600367/welcometoholl-20 { { or from fine bookstores everywhere. { { { { Ian Randall Wilson { Managing Editor ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 20:09:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: Perelman's interview In-Reply-To: from "Andrew Rathmann" at Oct 1, 2002 00:53:05 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Andrew, in response to your question about Perelman's citing of the "democratic urge" in language poetry, perhaps this will help, a quote from John Dewey (a favorite philosopher of such LangPo precursors as Zukofsky and Williams and some of the Black Mountain crowd): "A philosophy animated, be it consciously or unconsciously, by the strivings of men to achieve democracy will construe liberty as meaning a universe in which there is real uncertainty and contingency, a world which is not all in, and never will be, a world which in some respect is incomplete and in the making, and in these respects may be made this way or that according as men judge, prize, love and labor...a genuine field of novelty, of real and unpredictable increments to existence, a field for experimentation and invention." One might replace the word "philosophy" with "poetry" here and begin to see what Perelman is getting at. It seems to me that Language Writers take this sort of basic idea and apply it to syntax, grammar. This is not new, really, Stein did it (like Dewey himself, she learned it largely from William James) as did the others I mention above to one extent or another. But the Language Writers foreground its political implications in various ways and this makes language poetry a "new thing" ca 1975-85 or so. Anyway, this doesn't close the book on what Perelman means (and he himself isn't culling the idea from American pragmatists) but perhaps it helps. -m. According to Andrew Rathmann: > > I wonder what Bob Perelman means when he uses the word "democratic," as he does in this quotation from the interview: > > "For me and for most of Language Writers, I think, there is a strongly felt democratic urge. Language Writing has certainly been accused in the States of being elitist and intellectual. But throughout the range of forms, tones and genres that Language Writers have used, or are still using, there is a fairly constant sense of trying to sniff out transcendental and totalizing poetic approaches, and to critique them." > > Perelman here, as elsewhere, makes a tacit comparison between totalitarian political authority and "totalizing" poetic authorship. > > I take it that his real grievance is with writers who will not admit of possible objections to their views. I assume that he has Pound in mind. > > But to focus on Pound is to disregard the great value of "totalizing poetic approaches" within the European tradition: Dante, Shakespeare, and Goethe (to take only the most obvious cases) all offer perspectives so comprehensive as to be "total." > > Perhaps it is a mistake to assume, as Perelman seems to assume and as, in fact, most postwar writers assumed, that totalizing poets will always try to legitimate their authority by appealing to political ideologies or orthodox religions. Shakespeare would seem to be the classic counter-example. > > And, in fact, the 20th-century "innovative tradition" contains significant totalizers: Duncan and Dorn might be two important examples. > > Democracy is the rule of the majority, and anyone professing a "democratic urge" must of course reject authoritarian political approaches. But, personally, I read poetry for its authority, even for its authority on political and religious questions. The notion that authors should surrender an authority that is based, ultimately, on unusual skill in the use of words, doesn't seem "democratic." It seems like self-immolation. > > Andy > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 17:32:25 -0700 Reply-To: cstroffo@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino Subject: Re: Perelman's interview MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Andy--- I too read much (if not all) poetry for its authority. Like I'm reading Dickinson now and then reading a critic of hers and rejecting the critic's authority and assuming Dickinson's authority--- but subjectivity....is it Dickinson's authority, or my own? Or the authority of a mood? Just some questions I tend to think about when reading and/or writing (and there are many more). The issue of "authority" and "democracy" is complex, in poetry especially---it does seem that even something that seems like tyranny, an author's absolutism, might be a precondition for any truly democratic (if democratic is meant positively)... I don't think they are incompatible terms... Like you (I think) I am suspicious of those who claim not to be tyrants in their poetry.... Just as I am suspicious of "don't be didactic" or "show, don't tell" or "don't will or intend anything except chance or the aleatory" etc. (I think I say this better in my poem "Community Vices") But then part of Perelman's value (or, hell, I'll even say authority) for me is that I don't think he thinks democracy is incompatible with being an authority or even a tyrant in his poetry at least (at times). I actually think he's different than other lang.pos (say, Andrews) in this. But then I also don't quite know what you mean when you say Shakespeare had a "totalizing poetic approach"--- I know you mean that as a positive, but could you be more specific... it's not at all a given to me. Chris Andrew Rathmann wrote: > I wonder what Bob Perelman means when he uses the word "democratic," as he does in this quotation from the interview: > > "For me and for most of Language Writers, I think, there is a strongly felt democratic urge. Language Writing has certainly been accused in the States of being elitist and intellectual. But throughout the range of forms, tones and genres that Language Writers have used, or are still using, there is a fairly constant sense of trying to sniff out transcendental and totalizing poetic approaches, and to critique them." > > Perelman here, as elsewhere, makes a tacit comparison between totalitarian political authority and "totalizing" poetic authorship. > > I take it that his real grievance is with writers who will not admit of possible objections to their views. I assume that he has Pound in mind. > > But to focus on Pound is to disregard the great value of "totalizing poetic approaches" within the European tradition: Dante, Shakespeare, and Goethe (to take only the most obvious cases) all offer perspectives so comprehensive as to be "total." > > Perhaps it is a mistake to assume, as Perelman seems to assume and as, in fact, most postwar writers assumed, that totalizing poets will always try to legitimate their authority by appealing to political ideologies or orthodox religions. Shakespeare would seem to be the classic counter-example. > > And, in fact, the 20th-century "innovative tradition" contains significant totalizers: Duncan and Dorn might be two important examples. > > Democracy is the rule of the majority, and anyone professing a "democratic urge" must of course reject authoritarian political approaches. But, personally, I read poetry for its authority, even for its authority on political and religious questions. The notion that authors should surrender an authority that is based, ultimately, on unusual skill in the use of words, doesn't seem "democratic." It seems like self-immolation. > > Andy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 17:54:31 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Corbett Subject: Re: Perelman's interview Comments: To: Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino In-Reply-To: <3D9A3E98.50FFE123@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII As far as Shakespeare is concerned, there was considerable work done by writers like Johnson, the Schlegels, Hazlitt and Coleridge to make him seem "myriad-minded" to us. The value of Shakespeare was considerably different in the early 18th century compared to the 19th (and the US has invested something again in him). What we often take to be our naive and reflexive reading of author is often one that has been prepared for diligently. In terms of creating "totalizing" authors (like Chris, I am not entirely sure what that means and have substituted myriad-minded), there is much work done by his readers, at least the ones who are critics. This is why those who are partisans for the "I read literature because it overwhelms me school" strike me as a little delusional when they profess to hate criticism. Or less acidly, they are basically in denial, albeit perhaps healthy (it is altogether good to feel original). I however also feel some distance between myself and those who argue that criticism is nothing but ideology and authors are reshaped to speak particular ages. If nothing else, the treatment of Nietzsche by the Nazis indicates that textual violence is necessary to radically reshape an author. A proposed middle way, then, might be that authors becomes "authorities" through the consent of the community. We have President, but he must be elected. (Obvious inference may be drawn.) Robert -- Robert Corbett "I will discuss perfidy with scholars as rcor@u.washington.edu as if spurning kisses, I will sip Department of English the marble marrow of empire. I want sugar University of Washington but I shall never wear shame and if you call that sophistry then what is Love" - Lisa Robertson On Tue, 1 Oct 2002, Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino wrote: > Andy--- > > I too read much (if not all) poetry for its authority. > Like I'm reading Dickinson now and then reading a critic of hers > and rejecting the critic's authority and assuming Dickinson's authority--- > but subjectivity....is it Dickinson's authority, or my own? > Or the authority of a mood? > > Just some questions I tend to think about when reading and/or writing > (and there are many more). The issue of "authority" and "democracy" > is complex, in poetry especially---it does seem that even something > that seems like tyranny, an author's absolutism, might be a precondition > for any truly democratic (if democratic is meant positively)... > > I don't think they are incompatible terms... > Like you (I think) I am suspicious of those who > claim not to be tyrants in their poetry.... > > Just as I am suspicious of > "don't be didactic" or "show, don't tell" > or "don't will or intend anything except chance or the aleatory" etc. > (I think I say this better in my poem "Community Vices") > > But then part of Perelman's value (or, hell, I'll even say authority) > for me is that I don't think he thinks democracy is incompatible > with being an authority or even a tyrant in his poetry at least (at times). > I actually think he's different than other lang.pos (say, Andrews) in this. > > But then I also don't quite know what you mean when you say > Shakespeare had a "totalizing poetic approach"--- > I know you mean that as a positive, but could you be more specific... > it's not at all a given to me. > > Chris > > > > Andrew Rathmann wrote: > > > I wonder what Bob Perelman means when he uses the word "democratic," as he does in this quotation from the interview: > > > > "For me and for most of Language Writers, I think, there is a strongly felt democratic urge. Language Writing has certainly been accused in the States of being elitist and intellectual. But throughout the range of forms, tones and genres that Language Writers have used, or are still using, there is a fairly constant sense of trying to sniff out transcendental and totalizing poetic approaches, and to critique them." > > > > Perelman here, as elsewhere, makes a tacit comparison between totalitarian political authority and "totalizing" poetic authorship. > > > > I take it that his real grievance is with writers who will not admit of possible objections to their views. I assume that he has Pound in mind. > > > > But to focus on Pound is to disregard the great value of "totalizing poetic approaches" within the European tradition: Dante, Shakespeare, and Goethe (to take only the most obvious cases) all offer perspectives so comprehensive as to be "total." > > > > Perhaps it is a mistake to assume, as Perelman seems to assume and as, in fact, most postwar writers assumed, that totalizing poets will always try to legitimate their authority by appealing to political ideologies or orthodox religions. Shakespeare would seem to be the classic counter-example. > > > > And, in fact, the 20th-century "innovative tradition" contains significant totalizers: Duncan and Dorn might be two important examples. > > > > Democracy is the rule of the majority, and anyone professing a "democratic urge" must of course reject authoritarian political approaches. But, personally, I read poetry for its authority, even for its authority on political and religious questions. The notion that authors should surrender an authority that is based, ultimately, on unusual skill in the use of words, doesn't seem "democratic." It seems like self-immolation. > > > > Andy > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 20:56:01 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: poem Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Good Night, All You Ships at Sea, You *for Geneva Chao* We're on Sorrow Watch engulfed by Scorpion Bowls haunted repeatedly in Dreams by Dave Letterman when it's my funeral I'll want La Cucarachá and F-16 flyovers First choose your weight in water: essence of mango or Youth No one dies with you, regardless of riches or recent poll numbers Ex-girlfriends gather to march huffily Toward shore Adapting to the new Ban on hullabaloo At the first signs Yet agape, Shudder to think of Inflamed tonsils, they Strike You down walking your Delightful coast Dateline Egypt: Could have had more Pyramids if only we'd Worked together Pass a bottle of Nile, while watching soldiers fortify every Ferris Wheel or Tilt-a-Whirl O to be the one To chase off the Frankensteins we built Hooray for our impossible Demands, shrugged off Undershirt and clean Sheets misplaced _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 20:14:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Camille Martin Subject: authentic voice? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I'm interested in finding writings about the poetics of the "authentic voice" and the presentation of a unified, coherent, presiding authorial self, etc., especially from the perspective of those who see this kind of model as a poetic ideal. One exemplary article that comes to mind is Stanley Plumly's 1978 "Chapter and Verse" published in two parts in _APR_. Can someone point me in the direction of other texts? Thanks! Camille Camille Martin 7725 Cohn St. New Orleans, LA 70118 (504) 861-8832 http://www.litcity.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 18:15:50 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: Virginia, It's Getting So Dark In Here My Eyes Hurt MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii this, my friend, is wonderful!!!! keep up the great work!!! bliss l Virginia's guise has shifted from an alarm to a doll migration has brought imagination neatly dried & well-bred, red-hot & undisguised, soiled & taken down an honest heart craftily three-score (d---n him!) several times, to her consternation, his brain had given place to fortune, inquiries overgrown with apprehension this news has gone to decay shall we pretend the sky killed our pool of blood? I have elbows not even YOU can dishonor my liberty is drawing toward silence a season's crime cudgeled into a deep sleep prayers thus amazed saw each new face in my eyes I don't have a stick to burn against this cold... what if Portugal's history asks about me? What then? ===== http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html meditation, net art, poeisis: blog http://lewislacook.blogspot.com/ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 18:21:02 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: Re: fortune for you MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii "empty history of its meaning, so that actions proceeding from entirely different motives and agendas become indistinguishable as instances of individual preference. Call this Speilbergism." quite nice here...i like the tones... bliss l ===== http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html meditation, net art, poeisis: blog http://lewislacook.blogspot.com/ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 13:24:44 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: hole poems? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I sent this by mistae to ksilem... ----- Original Message ----- From: "richard.tylr" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 3:16 AM Subject: Re: hole poems? > Chris. Whew! Now, where was I....? Actually I came across some fascinating > poems by Lew Daly in a book whose name escapes me and I copied some out. He > has poems in small rectangles (surrounded by a lot of space on the page and > sometimes with small holes in their middle- holes inside holes!)...they are > gnomic so to speak..another person is Michele Leggott who uses a mass of x's > on one page which look like a mouth (to refer to the "sexy" comment below) > and x rhymes with sex and x is the variable anbd its one of the chromosomes > of sex and so on and on...and Michelle's work is very vibrant and ful of > romantic inmages and even sex and so on... as in "DIA" and many of the > Langpos play with it (lacunae ) and "non- Langpos" such as Ashbery in his > two column poem ( mentioned by Kasey): some one said to me he (John Ahsbery) > was fascinated by the whiteness (the emptiness, the space?) in between. > Looking at Nick's poetry - to take a random example - he doesnt have lacunae > as such but refers to this aspect in his book "Theoretical Dsiscourse" which > at its best is highly > intelligent and also almost "zen" but certainly it has both the lyric > intensity interacting with sensitive intellection and the self-referential > thing and the sense of process and other methodolgies and things > (asociations etc I think)...this last aspect (process) is common to many > poems....a poem or poem sequence by myself called "Chains" has some > "rectangular" parts in which because of the "justification" I leave > holes...thinking again of Nick Piombino's poems/meditations he talks about > this but even in ( a very different poet) Hone Tuwhare (who IS Maori) > there's a poem which goes "The rain makes holes in the silence." (Which a > local artist Ralph Hotere (Maori also) used with some other local poets in > some of his semi-abstract paintings.) Cage I heard on the radio the other > day foundthat there was nosuch thing as silence...the silence we seek is > "poetic".. I also I wrote a ppoem in which I tried ot put into the poem > everything that wasnt in a photogrpah that I was using as a basis...one of > my rare "planned" poems...I dont know if it worked very well...Just some > thoughts to get away from > confrontational politics for a bit. Richard Taylor. > > > > If I'm imagining correctly what your text would have looked like if the > > formatting had worked, Chris, the big archi-model would of course be Greek > > lyric fragments, e.g., Sappho, where vertical strips of papyrus are > missing > > and thus create sexy lacunae. Obviously, this is not a factor of > composition, > > but of historical accident. Still, it has inspired a lot of experimental > > imitations. I'm thinking Joan Retallack and Tina Darragh probably have a > lot > > of stuff that would fit your description (yeah, I just looked in > Retallack's > > _How to Do Things with Words_--lots of holes). > > > > I'm wondering if we could count Ashbery's _As We Know_ as an extreme > variant > > of this: where the columns on either side of the "hole" are intact > narratives > > in themselves. Actually, since in this case the "hole" becomes not a hole > but > > kind of third margin, a better example would be poems that I've seen (but > > can't remember who by offhand) where you can read either down each column > or > > across the gap. > > > > Kasey > > > > > > > > > O'Hara but actually now > > > > > it > > > occurs > > > > > to me that > > > > > i am actually > > > > > interested > > > > > at least a little or > > > > > perhaps just bored > > > > > enough > > > to > > > > > ask this list people > > > > > if they know of > > > > > specific > > > > > poems that may be > > > > > called lyric that occur > > > > > in > > > > > roughly this form > > > > > which may not > > > > > actually > > > > > come through on > > > > > the email listserv as > > > > > I > > > > > am trying to render > > > > > it here, what i > > > > > mean > > > > > specifically is poems > > > > > that actually have > > > > > HOLES > > > in > > > > > them. I think I've > > > > > seen some of these > > > > > before > > > > > but I'm curious how > > > > > many of them there > > > > > are > > > > > or might have existed > > > > > because I was > > > > > reading > > > > > somewhere that since > > > > > lyrics generally > > > > > present > > > > > themselves as surr- > > > > > ounded by nothing or > > > > > by > > > > > white space that they > > > > > therefore encourage > > > > > the > > > > > isolated moment and > > > > > this therefore is > > > > > something > > > > > that i'm sure some of > > > > > "our" lyricists would > > > > > want > > > to > > > > > challenge or > > > > > invert perhaps though > > > > > maybe > > > not > > > > > and or then why > > > > > and so I'm not really talking about slight > > > typographical variations a la > > > > > Williams' 3 steps > > > > > or even concrete poetry that emphasizes the > > > materiality of letters etc but > > > > > actually poems > > > > > that might be rather traditional when it > > > comes to meaning etc. but > > > > > nonetheless somehow > > > > > wants to invoke the idea that it is not per > > > se surrounded by nothing not per > > > > > se an isolated > > > > > moment or maybe that would not even be the > > > intention maybe such a poem would > > > > > just > > > > > want to "frame" the silence and this is > > > actually a rather silly form and so > > > > > praise be the > > > > > isolated moment but what the hell i might > > > as well at least ask if it exists > > > > > and so maybe some > > > > > will consider this a challenge to write in > > > this form and then what i write > > > > > now may seem as prescriptive like a call > > > for papers or a literary contest > > > > > judged anonymously of course which > > > > > will have much to do with setting a fashion > > > i care as little about as that > > > > > parody that became > > > > > a > > > > > real > > > > > > > > > > *** *** *** *** *** > > > Molly Schwartzburg > > > Doctoral Candidate > > > Department of English > > > Stanford University > > > Stanford, CA 94305 > > > 650-327-9168 > > > molly1@stanford.edu > > > *** *** *** *** *** > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 12:47:48 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: komninos zervos Comments: To: webartery@yahoogroups.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed http://users.bigpond.net.au/mangolegs/LAWSON.html henry lawson was a republican poet of the late 19th and early 20th century in australia. his poetry has been described as a simple bush ballads by 'high' art critics, and not considered as literary as his short stories. his writings indicate he was also anti-semitic and anti-chinese. i see him as australia's first performance poet, he toured for ten years in outback australia earning his living by his performances and royalties for his poems and stories. i've put one of his poems, 'do you think that i do not know?' to blues music with my turkish baglama, as a flash piece. this poem was written as a response to criticism from another poet of that time, ab paterson, 'the banjo of the bush', that lawson never wrote love poems. the poem to me had its own music and the poem is full of emotion even though the language may be simple and repetitive. i offer it for your enjoyment cheers komninos ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 21:22:43 -0700 Reply-To: cstroffo@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino Subject: PROBABLY NOT OF STATUS AS "PROSE POEM" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit At The Beginning of The New Fiscal I gotta talk about, think about, non-attachment again. I usually prefer to practice it without the trappings of that name. But when I’m forced to go to meetings in which my vote and voice is lesser than others, it’s harder to turn off the heart or heat of passion and get caught up in something frankly petty---especially as it goes on for 6 or so hours (even if it pretends to be more of a party for the last 2) for the same reason I prefer not to keep food in the cupboard or fridge (generally fridge—perishables require less preparation). But the stores closing so early (or me getting up so late—since it’s important to see both sides of the argument, ah comp!) I guess the feeling of what yesterday seemed like “social disconnection and now seems “social assault” (hardly hardcore though it sounds like a band) and its attendant “best way out is through” fantasy strategy has only gotten the house surrounded because the slackjaw lynchpin of its operations had come up through your inner toilet not so much as vomit as ACT-UP in the early 90s when chaining themselves to Dan Rather’s news desk (the rare-live TV footage) circa noon waited until 6PM for their 15 seconds of fame, “Fight Aids not arabs.” And thus, so the irresponsible personality I fear losing the reigns of, because attached to what I called non-attachment (as some others are stuck in willed chance!) may make a cameo out of the comma I deem a cannonball and license my fool and love me, if they love, as it does, for the cuddly violence emanating from the sublime I claim to be taken seriously as the dull priestesses I scorn either wanting “down with the whole system” or a greater emphasis on classics the better from which to unsubtle (thank you Jane Ransom). All to say, as budding and blooming be more violent-seeming than sustaining and slowly reverting to barrenness, so I must celebrate, if this be celebrate, such repression born genie from a jar though still eager for the next big earthquake to be done and over so as to lessen and lesson the threat, even if no spring falls past meridian in the faith of 40. Yes, to basen, bain the threat, the treat and trick that is no other but a posture toward otherness and as such the adjustment will be hot and hazy against the airconditioner itself weird cloud though that’s chief weird cloud to the them in me ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 23:42:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Once Air MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Once Air the time churls like wild streamed apart from something seen twice There is a minding between the risen has no time its surroundings are their own disturbance that is the infinite charge one should think as one twists the gamut as anvil as a cube leaving the room. I should approximate once a tangle now the boat is large, as seen from the shore spread across too much water. Time is only impossible I should think She is squirming on the only balcony overlooking the busiest steet in the harbor town There are not exists. The lanky holds sway and damn time before heard again wildly I am I again once speech passed into sleep reaches thermal borders as only a he would extract part from who it maintained would become or should you think the time is familiar repeating overlook repeating -- the innocent are a crowd of vagrants left behind only I can hear a Babylon rumble that is i.e. Early Mountain's chiming are not a distraction a fact in a heart continually the wisest wealth what she sees she includes a closet her opening all turn to a tall familiar in the doorway crowding macro and if only the absence of dust could shine in the dark filial tree as she closes the door to find her dark familiar inside a door closing is a door opened the minding heart strung wisening such a contract pursued met with onlookers only the onlookers disappeared and were replaced by such appropriates as to conquer the always newly appearing one trial at a time and "they should think" I said the bravest tank of thought is confrontation where gone I search around a crowded square of dying earth the lat of which romances which tangles that perfect unlikely firmament. -- mIEKAL aND dtv@mwt.net Dreamtime Village http://www.dreamtimevillage.org Joglars Crossmedia Broadcast http://cla.umn.edu/joglars ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 22:41:51 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: bright light In-Reply-To: <3D9A7948.B3B8FC97@mwt.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v546) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable bight light black Man dies after a eight-year-old boy plays God, A bright light=20 filled the night mob dragged her back leaving blood spattered atomic=20 bomb. "We turned away to Death: =97 He was hidden by the first atomic=20 bomb. "We turned away to Death: =97 He was raped by mob dragged "My God,=20= what have we done? a black Man dies after a child mob dragged his=20 throat and repeatedly raped him=A0with rakes, shovels blood spattered=20 beaten on Christmas Day a certain amount of a "A bright light filled=20 the children tossed an egg at Hiroshima. "We turned away and his=20 mother was raped when SS officers asked for volunteers shouted, "Juden=20= heraus!"=A0"- A bright light filled the "We turned away as a = 27-year-old=20 transgender woman died Tuesday as authorities held nine youths in the=20 first atomic bomb. "We turned away to the Enola Gay, the murders of=20 children, ages 10 to the age of language, splattered in blood spattered=20= beaten transgender, Navajo teen "We turned away to look at Hiroshima.=20 The city was raped by a mob dragged her throat then slashed with rakes,=20= shovels raped by the plane, "My God," "what have we done? a=20 27-year-old transgender woman died Tuesday as authorities held nine=20 youths in custody, baseball bats by mob died Tuesday as authorities=20 held nine youths in custody, and sought seven more. a black Man dies=20 after raped by a dead mob Tuesday as authorities held nine youths in=20 the plane, "My God," "what have we done? a black Man dies after =20 slashed with rakes, shovels leaving blood spattered with rakes, shovels=20= raped by mob dragged raped and beaten Navajo teen stabbed repeatedly=20= with rakes, shovels outside the Enola Gay,"A bright light filled the =20 way to Death: =97 He was slashed - Shot Six Times: "A bright light was=20= slashed with rakes, shovels raped by a Fatal Shot: "A bright light=20 filled the first atomic bomb. =A0with rakes, shovels that awful=20 cloud...boiling up, mushrooming."- A bright light filled the air . . .= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 22:47:11 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: Re: bright light In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v546) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable kim, I do not have the list, I lost all my "list" when I switched to my=20= mew program...I was barley albe to rescure the address in my reg.=20 addres book. sorry.. k On Tuesday, October 1, 2002, at 10:41 PM, kari edwards wrote: > bight light > > > black Man dies after a eight-year-old boy plays God, A bright light=20 > filled the night mob dragged her back leaving blood spattered atomic=20= > bomb. "We turned away to Death: =97 He was hidden by the first atomic=20= > bomb. "We turned away to Death: =97 He was raped by mob dragged "My = God,=20 > what have we done? a black Man dies after a child mob dragged his=20 > throat and repeatedly raped him=A0with rakes, shovels blood spattered=20= > beaten on Christmas Day a certain amount of a "A bright light filled=20= > the children tossed an egg at Hiroshima. "We turned away and his=20 > mother was raped when SS officers asked for volunteers shouted, "Juden=20= > heraus!"=A0"- A bright light filled the "We turned away as a=20 > 27-year-old transgender woman died Tuesday as authorities held nine=20 > youths in the first atomic bomb. "We turned away to the Enola Gay, the=20= > murders of children, ages 10 to the age of language, splattered in=20 > blood spattered beaten transgender, Navajo teen "We turned away to=20 > look at Hiroshima. The city was raped by a mob dragged her throat then=20= > slashed with rakes, shovels raped by the plane, "My God," "what have=20= > we done? a 27-year-old transgender woman died Tuesday as authorities=20= > held nine youths in custody, baseball bats by mob died Tuesday as=20 > authorities held nine youths in custody, and sought seven more. a=20 > black Man dies after raped by a dead mob Tuesday as authorities held=20= > nine youths in the plane, "My God," "what have we done? a black Man=20 > dies after slashed with rakes, shovels leaving blood spattered with=20= > rakes, shovels raped by mob dragged raped and beaten Navajo teen=20 > stabbed repeatedly with rakes, shovels outside the Enola Gay,"A bright=20= > light filled the way to Death: =97 He was slashed - Shot Six Times: = "A=20 > bright light was slashed with rakes, shovels raped by a Fatal Shot:=20= > "A bright light filled the first atomic bomb. =A0with rakes, shovels =20= > that awful cloud...boiling up, mushrooming."- A bright light filled=20 > the air . . . > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 15:48:29 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: komninos zervos Subject: Re: Once Air:iNFINITE rOCK In-Reply-To: <3D9A7948.B3B8FC97@mwt.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed infinite rock void kings oppose taming stuck together to little glimpses invisible corpses behind still dead bodies possesses all nothingness subject, its own joy this a tiny discharge the surroundings didn't accept the straight and narrow none not air spherical arrivals the world did specify infinite undoings then automobiles get smaller, heard in the sea under inadequate ice the void is not achievable the subject leeps he rejoices in a multitude of dungeons under quiet graveyards out in the desert wilderness it is memory fat glides uncontrolable minus gay emptiness after written never tame surroundings subjects never text stopped out of wakening distant things nuclear freedoms she had infused wholly to what they released had been and should not accept voids are foreign singular notices singular - the guilty one is lonely rich men carried forward all but they strain to see a tin shed stand still without example late plains silence is a pacifier illusion on the chlorophyll erratically stupid poor who he feels he neglects a canyon his closing no-one shuns short stranger on the horizon sparse tiny but for a multitude of presence by rock had darkened out of illuminated roots man if he opens the window in loss his enlightened foreign surfaces windows open have been windows closed careless brain wired dumbly unexaggerated lies pursuing lost protagonists a multitude of protagonists appear or created with no low in defeat a never old vanishing many acceptances of the void "let me sleep" they wrote cowardly oceans of body to pacify in an empty sphere of living sky a stand in who looks forward who straightens the disfigured predictable inactivity komninos ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 03:58:49 -0400 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Pavement Saw Press Subject: Re: hole poems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris-- I was really disappointed this summer because the band Hole broke up. They were slated to go on tour. I had been waiting for the Korn / Hole tour for years. Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus OH 43206 USA http://pavementsaw.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 04:05:01 -0400 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Pavement Saw Press Subject: Re: authentic voice MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Camille-- I would recommend The craft of poetry: Interviews from the New York quarterly William Packard , Ed. There are many interview that fit what you are looking for, if I remember correctly, one by Dickey that fits exactly, plus others. Must have been a late 70's concern, same time period. Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus OH 43206 USA http://pavementsaw.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 18:34:55 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Pam=20Brown?= In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20021002124744.00a68d90@mail02.domino.gu.edu.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks Komninos, I enjoyed this one - it's poignant. Pam --- komninos zervos wrote: > http://users.bigpond.net.au/mangolegs/LAWSON.html > > henry lawson was a republican poet of the late 19th > and early 20th century > in australia. > his poetry has been described as a simple bush > ballads by 'high' art > critics, and not considered as literary as his short > stories. > his writings indicate he was also anti-semitic and > anti-chinese. > i see him as australia's first performance poet, he > toured for ten years in > outback australia earning his living by his > performances and royalties for > his poems and stories. > > i've put one of his poems, 'do you think that i do > not know?' to blues > music with my turkish baglama, as a flash piece. > this poem was written as a response to criticism > from another poet of that > time, ab paterson, 'the banjo of the bush', that > lawson never wrote love poems. > > the poem to me had its own music and the poem is > full of emotion even > though the language may be simple and repetitive. > > i offer it for your enjoyment > cheers > komninos ===== Web site/P.Brown - http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Workshop/7629/ http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger for SMS - Always be connected to your Messenger Friends ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 03:46:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: matt schuler Comments: To: 7-11@mail.ljudmila.org, ImitationPoetics@listserv.unc.edu, o-o@konf.lt, webartery@yahoogroups.com, salasin@scn.org, syndicate@anart.no, _arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MATT SCHULER Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh! #003.........{excerpt} www.pornalisa.com smiled special smile became like Sounded pretty good too Ignatius Rodd Jay moved Jay well panting swaying hips mumbling jerk off later asleep Chien places allowed commented nice know handle almost verge cumming also Julie Why two turn find Philana finally see tastes like smiled special smile became Thel warbling Dysis hips moving grabbing going let cum mouth lost love stated only few greatest familiar sure never seen again clit Sucking surprised glance unseeing sat back couch While Rodd up looking hurt doorway younger years Try suck dick doesn't make bad hot little cunt just begging studied variety Ready shot up cakes Who Daddy little slut overcooked undercooked every dish some knickers suspenders down smiling Does mean Thatcher fulfill find one years chopped Sonnagh proceeded tell fiancé wrong managed push Flor impossible describe feeling seeing glimmering sheets water bike summertime During both moaned satisfaction watch Honora doing saw Honora believe allow soft penis balls hanging between blonde seemed encouraged Simple Nishan chicks Hot towards inevitable climax Both women age small city another doors breathing thirty time eat ten see says change portion knob does too closely trimmed Teli top surround sound mention pool Lidcote left tongue slid heartedness kidding think get laced communicate girl Just say want down birds eye view college went one local coma explained rationally longer Ellema cock Devlin employees still looking staying portion knob talk mind Thatcher axmen stepped those trousers down come fuck cum mouth dropped down sucked watched Easy girl thing pretty tender wife sopping pussy groaned deeply determination face wanting lives today great day went those trousers down come fuck Well home give fair market value household doesn't use having hold back plunged cock deeper Camilla pink Italian marble off answers hung feeble wake let wake own rocked hips back forth trying followed sitting alone finished white can only sleep girls resting Sydnee just wanted thank once wool sat back couch While Rodd Queen honor serve woman wants right stopped deception see says change say want fuck like dangerously approaching time zero Dysis hips moving grabbing Ready shot up can see like Ignatius late just few minutes ago unattainable dividing hide very well currents virtually raped anus own only grunt answers nearer home give fair market value Cum poured cock Sounded pretty good too up just men went house repose desired see can Makya passage writing takes like wait ride spell baptismal possible reared back violently told Oh yeah patrolman sweetly repose weight running next watch panting swaying hips mumbling happened next --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.393 / Virus Database: 223 - Release Date: 9/30/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 04:41:10 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: Re: Once Air:iNFINITE rOCK MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii fat glides uncontrolable minus gay emptiness after written never one of the best lines i've ever read...cluttered with information, but not an overload, graceful...i really like this piece bliss l ===== http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html meditation, net art, poeisis: blog http://lewislacook.blogspot.com/ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 08:09:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Perelman's interview In-Reply-To: <200210020009.g9209twT028219@dept.english.upenn.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" this quote is simply terrific. thanks for it. At 8:09 PM -0400 10/1/02, Michael Magee wrote: >Andrew, in response to your question about Perelman's citing of the >"democratic urge" in language poetry, perhaps this will help, a quote from >John Dewey (a favorite philosopher of such LangPo precursors as Zukofsky >and Williams and some of the Black Mountain crowd): > >"A philosophy animated, be it consciously or unconsciously, by the >strivings of men to achieve democracy will construe liberty as meaning a >universe in which there is real uncertainty and contingency, a world which >is not all in, and never will be, a world which in some respect is >incomplete and in the making, and in these respects may be made this way >or that according as men judge, prize, love and labor...a genuine field of >novelty, of real and unpredictable increments to existence, a field for >experimentation and invention." > >One might replace the word "philosophy" with "poetry" here and begin to >see what Perelman is getting at. It seems to me that Language Writers >take this sort of basic idea and apply it to syntax, grammar. This is not >new, really, Stein did it (like Dewey himself, she learned it largely from >William James) as did the others I mention above to one extent or another. >But the Language Writers foreground its political implications in various >ways and this makes language poetry a "new thing" ca 1975-85 or so. > >Anyway, this doesn't close the book on what Perelman means (and he himself >isn't culling the idea from American pragmatists) but perhaps it helps. > >-m. > > > > According to Andrew >Rathmann: > >> I wonder what Bob Perelman means when he uses the word >>"democratic," as he does in this quotation from the interview: >> >> "For me and for most of Language Writers, I think, there is a >>strongly felt democratic urge. Language Writing has certainly been >>accused in the States of being elitist and intellectual. But >>throughout the range of forms, tones and genres that Language >>Writers have used, or are still using, there is a fairly constant >>sense of trying to sniff out transcendental and totalizing poetic >>approaches, and to critique them." >> >> Perelman here, as elsewhere, makes a tacit comparison between >>totalitarian political authority and "totalizing" poetic authorship. >> >> I take it that his real grievance is with writers who will not >>admit of possible objections to their views. I assume that he has >>Pound in mind. >> >> But to focus on Pound is to disregard the great value of >>"totalizing poetic approaches" within the European tradition: >>Dante, Shakespeare, and Goethe (to take only the most obvious >>cases) all offer perspectives so comprehensive as to be "total." > > > > Perhaps it is a mistake to assume, as Perelman seems to assume >and as, in fact, most postwar writers assumed, that totalizing poets >will always try to legitimate their authority by appealing to >political ideologies or orthodox religions. Shakespeare would seem >to be the classic counter-example. >> >> And, in fact, the 20th-century "innovative tradition" contains >>significant totalizers: Duncan and Dorn might be two important >>examples. >> >> Democracy is the rule of the majority, and anyone professing a >>"democratic urge" must of course reject authoritarian political >>approaches. But, personally, I read poetry for its authority, even >>for its authority on political and religious questions. The notion >>that authors should surrender an authority that is based, >>ultimately, on unusual skill in the use of words, doesn't seem >>"democratic." It seems like self-immolation. >> >> Andy >> -- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 06:02:02 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: STRAVINSKY'S ROCK WA(N)D MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I remain, as ever, unsure of splashing early autumnal laminates of light around treetops. Pure description is an object-oriented programming language based more on prototypes than it is on classes; in javascript, one searches for the right snippet of piss-stained clouds, wheezing through the hedges we just bought and couldn't set up ourselves. For decoration, he's hung a guitar over the mantle. The Rite of Spring jangles down a decline in teen-age drug use; as ever, I remain uninformed of grinning latino workmen, of cul-de-sacs turning heatedly as debate bends down with rapacious ease to lie miniscule with the lullaby's five- year-old, singing a brand-new requiem for the language we've bought and sold. That's bridging dearly. On top of it all, metaphysics has no quantum counterpart to spar with; it just sits, as you and I do, only dropping another coin in Estrella's slot is dripping a mother's canon estrogynous as the glottis throttle: pills like freckles dissolve these equations only so far, and then I'm left with uncertainty and her cousin: the bilious swoon. ===== http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html meditation, net art, poeisis: blog http://lewislacook.blogspot.com/ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 09:50:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: FJB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Franklin Bruno, are you out there? Please to backchannel! Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 10:11:38 -0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Heller Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed A number of people asked for the sourceof the Levinas quote. I used it in my essay, "Diasporic Poetics" in the anthology, "Jewish American Poetry" (Brandeis, New England, UP, 2000). It comes from Levinas's book PROPER NAMES, Stanford, 1997, but I've misplaced the page ref. Hope this helps. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 10:17:39 -0400 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: P.O.T.H... thanks to J. Gallagher for the full text of the Baraka rant...those 5 laughing Israelis taping W.T.C...should put it up on Ebay..where it can be bought like the McGruder Tape by the Smithsonian..oi the Jew$$$$...as to the central question of the pome.. who who whooooo...small time violent ideologues...Amiri just look around...it was comforting to have the Rosenbergs, the Holocaust & Rosa Luxenbourg in there...Amiri never met a dead Jew he didn't like.... as to conspiracy theories..i just pulled this off the net...in the early 70's a charming black poet Leroi Jones..eater of 'left-handed eggs'...was replicated by the C.I.A. counterintelpro with a psychotic-paranoid-anti-semite-rant-spieler-robot Amiri Baraka.....Leroy...mamma want you come home.....poor old tired horse..DRn.. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 09:35:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: I spoke to J Gallaher and David Baratier on the phone MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Last night-- back to back Poetics phone calls. J Gallaher called me at 8:45. He told me he wasn't wearing any underwear, that he had just been to the gym. I told him I was wearing only a towel and was preparing to shave. "Shave what?" he wanted to know. My face, of course. Then I was going to hop in the shower. I love night showers. I told him I'd been in jury duty for two days. He admitted to having seen someone talking on one of those sparkling cell phones. The conversation wended its way into comedy, Marx Brothers, Hart Crane, Wallace Stevens. He has not read the Bergson essay "Laughter," and I think he really should. His knowledge of clowns is superior. J Gallaher has a beautiful speaking voice and is, as you might expect, a quick witted conversationalist. I called David Baratier at 9:30. He didn't say *anything* about his apparel, which came as a great relief. Though he did say he'd been on this list since 1994, which came as a surprise to me. "Ah, you're an old-timer" I said. We talked mostly about our towns -- his being Columbus OH, mine being St. Louis MO -- and realized that they are very similar in terms of 'scene'. I begged him to invite me to something there, because it's not a very long drive; I also told him I'd like to have him over here sometime. We need to do a better job of cross-pollinating these medium-sized American city "scenes." We also commiserated about the challenge of readings 600-page-plus collection of poetry. "All you need is a comfortable chair," he said. I need more than that, though. Next up is Anthony Robinson. I ran out of time last night. If anyone else would like to talk things over, it's kind of fun. 314-781-9690 Ciao, Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 11:14:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Segue Reading Series at Bowery Poetry Club Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi Everyone, Here's the schedule for the next four months of the Segue Reading Series, which has moved from Double Happiness to the Bowery Poetry Club, at 308 Bowery, just north of Houston, in New York City. All readings take place on Saturdays from 4 - 6 P.M. $4 admission goes to support the readers. Funding is made possible by the continuing support of the Segue Foundation and the Literature Program of the New York State Council on the Arts. Curators for October/November are Brian Kim Stefans & Gary Sullivan. Curators for December/January are Laura Elrick & Michael Scharf. A PDF version of the calendar, as well as further information about Segue, can be found at: http://www.segue.org/ Here's the line-up: October 5: Drew Milne and Bruce Andrews Bruce Andrews' recent books include Lip Service (Coach House, 2001), a phonetic Langpo reworking of Dante's Paradiso through Andrews' distinctive blender-on-fire idiom, and Paradise & Method (Northwestern University Press, 1999), his collected essays. A yet-to-be-titled collection of his political science writing is forthcoming on arras.net. Homepage: http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/andrews/ Drew Milne is the author of several collections of poetry including Sheet Mettle (Alfred David Editions, 1994), The Damage: New and Selected Poems (Salt Books, 2001) and Mars Disarmed (The Figures, 2002). He is the editor of Parataxis: Modernism and Modern Writing, teaches at Cambridge University in the U.K. and is a prolific critic. Homepage: http://drewmilne.tripod.com/ * * * October 12: Carol Mirakove and John Wilkinson Carol Mirakove is the author of WALL (ixnay press, 1999) and a founding member of the subpress collective, with whom she published Edwin Torres' Fractured Humorous (1999). Her forthcoming book is titled Temporary Tattoos, to be published by BabySelf Press in Brooklyn. New work is featured in issue 11 of Cambridge, England's QUID. Poetry: http://www.theeastvillage.com/t12/mirakove/a.htm Interview: http://home.jps.net/~nada/cmirakove.htm John Wilkinson is also visiting us from England, and is the author of Oort's Cloud: Earlier Poems (subpress, 2000)?a "kaiserschnitt of sovereign dismemberment" to those in the know; the great Flung Clear (Parataxis, 1994), a kaisershnitt of six book-length works; and most recently Effigies Against the Light (Salt, 2001). Interview: http://angel-exhaust.offworld.org/html/issue-9-10/Wilkinson.html Review: http://www.jacket.zip.com.au/jacket09/brady-rev-wilkinson.html * * * October 19: Gregory Whitehead and Bill Berkson Gregory Whitehead's voiceworks and radio plays include The Pleasure of Ruins, Pressures of the Unspeakable and The Thing About Bugs. His writings on language and electronic media have been widely anthologized, and he is the co-editor of Wireless Imagination: Sound, Radio and the Avant-Garde (MIT Press). He wants to talk about squid. Bio, bibliography, selected work: http://www.location1.org/artists/whitehead.html If we think of Bill Berkson as bi-coastal, it's only because we were so smitten by his recently re-published collaborative work with Frank O'Hara, Hymns of St. Bridget & Other Writings (The Owl Press). But, yes, to be fair to him?and the west coast?he has, for many years now, been one of the Bay Area's brightest shining stars, with an oeuvre that includes everything from art writing to the poems and prose of Serenade (Zoland Books). Don't miss his rare east-coast visit! Interview: http://www.twc.org/forums/poetschat/poetschat_bberkson.html * * * October 26: Maggie O'Sullivan and Jackson Mac Low Publishers Weekly once called Jackson Mac Low "America's most indefatigable experimental poet"--he's also been one of the most influential. The long-awaited, 250-page Doings: Assorted Performance Pieces 1955-2002 will be out soon from Granary Books. A nice selection of his work can be found at: http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/maclow/ Publishers Weekly may not have called Maggie O'Sullivan anything, but she is one of England's most indefatigable experimental poets, having published fourteen books including Unofficial Word (Galloping Dog, 1998) and In the House of the Shaman (Reality Street, 1993). She edited Out Of Everywhere: Linguistically Innovative Poetry by Women in North America & the UK (Reality Street, 1996). * * * November 2: Deirdre Kovac and Lytle Shaw Deirdre Kovac, a one time Detroiter, now lives in Brooklyn. Her work has most recently appeared in 100 Days (Barque), Crayon, and The Capilano Review (Boo), and is forthcoming in Shiny. Her first book, Mannerism, is indeterminately forthcoming. Lytle Shaw's books include The Lobe (Roof, 2001) and Cable Factory 20 (Atelos, 1999) as well as several collaborations with the painter Emilie Clark, with whom he co-edits Shark, a journal of art and writing. Shaw also curates a rival reading series at the Drawing Center. Essay: http://www.jacket.zip.com.au/jacket10/shaw-on-ohara.html Poems: http://www.jacket.zip.com.au/jacket10/shaw-poems.html * * * November 9: Tonya Foster and Caroline Bergvall One of the rising stars on the New York scene, Tonya Foster has had work published in a variety of zines and journals, including POeP! and The Poetry Project Newsletter. Her "Cinematic Neurosis: An American Journal" appears online at http://www.poetryproject.com/foster3.html The English invasion continues with Caroline Bergvall , whose books include Eclat (Sound & Language, 1996) and Goan Atom: jets poupee (rempress, 1999), recreated for Krupskaya (2001). Be ready for anything with CB, who created the performance program at Dartington University and whose digital works can be found at How2: http://www.departments.bucknell.edu/stadler_center/how2/ * * * November 16: Phoebe Gloeckner and Kathleen Fraser Phoebe Gloeckner, a critically-acclaimed cartoonist originally from the Bay Area (where she performed in a number of Kevin Killian's plays), recently moved to Long Island. She is the author of the searing and occasionally banned A Child's Life and a brand-new hybrid novel/journal/comic book, Diary of a Teenage Girl (both from North Atlantic Books). Read her work at www.ravenblond.com/pgloeckner/. One of the Bay Area's most beloved poets, Kathleen Fraser was a founding editor of How(ever) and its online manifestation, How2. More importantly, she is the author of more than a dozen books of poetry, each more inventive than the next. About her Selected Poems, Patrick Pritchett notes her "devotion to discovery, her willingness to risk, and her profoundly lyrical sense of the intimate." Her homepage is at: http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/fraser/. * * * November 23: Mini-Festival of Digital Poetry Featuring performances and presentations by: Angela Rawlings (Toronto) creator of LOGYOLOGY (alienated.net/a/), cyber-longtimer John Cayley (London, UK) whose work is collected at www.shadoof.net/in/, Patrick Herron (Charlotte, NC) creator of proximate.org, Noah Wardrip-Fruin (New York), co-creator of The Impermanence Agent (impermanenceagent.com), an app that creates a story based on your internet browsing, and The Prize Budget for Boys, a performance group from Toronto including Neil Hennessy (The Jabber Engine and Basho's Frogger, at ubu.com), Ian Hooper and Jason LeHeup. Note: due to number of readers, admission price is $5. Followed by a very informal discussion panel. * * * December 7: Deborah Richards & Rick Snyder Deborah Richards is a black Londoner who is currently living and teaching in Philadephia. Her chapbook, parable, is published by Leroy Press, and her first collection of poems, Last One Out, will be published by subpress by the end of 2002. Rick Snyder's chapbook Forecast Memorial transcribes newscasts leading up to the two-month anniversary of Sept. 11 and is currently online at the Duration site. Other recent works of his have appeared in Aufgabe and LVNG. His translations of Catullus appear on the Poetry Project web site, and an essay on recent translations of Paul Celan is forthcoming in Radical Society. He also edits the journal Cello Entry and curates a poetics lecture series at the Dactyl Foundation. * * * December 14: Dorothy Trujillo Lusk & K. Silem Mohammad Dorothy Trujillo Lusk lives in Vancouver, has books: ORAL TRAGEDY, Tsunami; REDACTIVE, Talonbooks; Sleek Vinyl Drill, Thuja Books; and Ogress Oblige, Krupskaya. Is battleaxe, loose cannon and war horse. Forthcoming books: Why Do I Have a Phony English Accent and DECORUM. K. Silem Mohammad's poetry has appeared in Combo, 580 Split, The San Jose Manual of Style, Cello Entry, and other small journals. His chapbook hovercraft, published by Kenning, is available through Small Press Distribution. * * * December 21: Holiday Break * * * December 28: Dan Farrell & Jessica Grim Dan Farrell has been "teased in both BC and NY. Now in SF only milder. That and that. The Inkblot Record (Toronto: Coach House Books, 2000) and Last Instance (San Francisco: Krupskaya Press, 1999) on the shelf. The technophile may enjoy Graphing the News http://www.erols.com/dfar/Rmain, the collectors of memorabilia ape (Vancouver: Tsunami Editions, 1988)." Jessica Grim's recent books are Fray (1998) and Locale (1995); a new e-book, Vexed, appears in the /ubu ("slash ubu") series and can soon be downloaded at www.ubu.com/ubu. She lives in Oberlin, Ohio. * * * January 4: Daniel Bouchard & Kaia Sand Daniel Bouchard lives in Cambridge, Mass. where he edits The Poker. His first book of poems, DIMINUTIVE REVOLUTIONS, was published by Subpress. A new (second) manuscript is looking for a home. Recent poems have appeared in Bivouac, Torch, and The Capilano Review. He is at work on a collaboration with Kevin Davies titled THE BIG DIG. Kaia Sand co-edits the Tanget, a zine of politics and the arts. Her poetry appears in Gargoyle, Phoebe, West 47 (Galway, Ireland), Washington Review, Ixnay, and the 100 Days anthology. She has worked as a journalist for the Burnside Cadillac, a street newspaper that dealt with news as it relates to homelessness. * * * January 11: Clint Burnham & John Coletti Clint Burnham is a Vancouver writer and teacher. He has written fiction (Airborne Photo), poetry (Buddyland, Be Labour Reading, A4isms) and criticism. Recent work has appeared in Last Call, W magazine, West Coast Line, Open Letter, endNotes, Capilano Review, and Matrix. John Coletti is the author of The New Normalcy (Boog). He is in Italy as this is written for him. * * * January 18: Kristin Gallagher & Drew Gardner Kristin Gallagher is the editor of handwritten press, curator of rust talks, and a student at the SUNY Buffalo Poetics program. Recent work appears in kenning, COMBO, Kiosk. Drew Gardner's recent books include Sugar Pill (Krupskaya), Water Table (Situations) and Student Studies (Detour). Recent music/ poetry collaborations have found him working with Alan Davies, Julie Patton and Nada Gordon. He edits Snare magazine and lives in New York City. * * * January 25: Tisa Bryant & Kristin Prevallet Tisa Bryant's current preoccupations are artist Eulalia Valldosera, homemade peach vodka and dirt-cheap interior design. She has recently returned to the east coast after seven years in San Francisco; her work has recently appeared in Bombay Gin and in the anthology Short Fuse. Kristin Prevallet is the author of Scratch Sides: Poetry, Documentation, and Image-Text Projects (Skanky Possum, 2002). She is currently working on co-editing a multicultural anthology of French-language poetry for Talisman House. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 10:18:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: Re: I spoke to J Gallaher and David Baratier on the phone In-Reply-To: <007101c26a20$ea886420$29d4bed0@belzjones1500.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Aaron Belz wrote: I reply: Alright, OK, true enough. But I was wearing pants. And that should count for something. These days. Belz Continued: I reply: Well, you would've asked too, with the husky way he said "towel"! The rest, I guess, as in most things in my life, I'll have to take Lud Witt's advice and "pass over in silence." But just to add this one extra fact: We discovered during the course of the brief conversation, that I am 7 years older than Mr. Belz. And that we both like poetry. And we discovered (earlier) much to our mutual amazement, that we both have daughters named Natalie Rose. Best to all, JG ------------- Your children are not your children. They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself. --Kahlil Gibran ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 11:53:50 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Scroggins In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.1.20021002100931.01c06d08@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Page 63, from the Jabes essay. Mark Scrogggins >A number of people asked for the sourceof the Levinas quote. > >I used it in my essay, "Diasporic Poetics" in the anthology, "Jewish >American Poetry" (Brandeis, New England, UP, 2000). It comes from >Levinas's book PROPER NAMES, Stanford, 1997, but I've misplaced the page ref. > >Hope this helps. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 11:18:19 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: I spoke to J Gallaher and David Baratier on the phone In-Reply-To: <007101c26a20$ea886420$29d4bed0@belzjones1500.local> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v546) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > We need to do a better job of cross-pollinating these medium-sized > American > city "scenes." amen to that, maybe you've started something Aaron... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 17:22:08 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lakey Teasdale Subject: Poetics phone calls: August H phoned me MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit August Highland phoned me yesterday morning. We spoke for over an hour. We spoke about speaking to each other, our respective voices, our accents (August thinks my American accent sounds Scottish, but then people think my son's accent sounds Irish). birth, death, trauma, m.a.g., survival, various poets and how good it was to be speaking to each other. We did not discuss showers or shaving nor even what we were wearing. Thank god. Nobody wants to hear about jeans with designer rips that put the rip back in torn. AUGUST HIGHLAND IS A MENSCH!!!!! You lucky people out there who can just phone anyone in the states without having to consult your bank managers! Phone August Highland today. You will be so glad to speak to him. LT +0044 (UK code) 1856 831 316. That will reach me in St Margaret's Hope,Orkney. Some people think I am August Highland, but this is not true. August Highland actually knows William Shakespeare. The William Shakespeare. And I don't. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 11:31:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Small Press Traffic Subject: K. Silem Mohammad on Lyric Equivalence, New Experiments this Saturday MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Small Press Traffic presents Saturday, October 5, 2002 at 3:30 pm New Experiments: K. Silem Mohammad on Lyric Equivalence Talk and discussion begins at 3:30, reading at 5:00 K. Silem Mohammad writes: "One objective for this investigation is to launch a larger inquiry into the definition of lyric as currently practiced by experimental poets: must voice, for example, or subjectivity, be a part of that definition, and if so, how have those terms changed historically from their application in earlier critical contexts? And what about notions of eloquence and musicality? Must any contemporary engagement with these concepts be limited by postmodern irony, or can they be used in a progressive critical discourse within which they are assimilated to a communal (or at least non-solipsistic) prosodic telos? I will argue for a theory of lyric composition that posits value not in terms of absolute phonic or rhythmic qualities, but in terms of contingent and flexible equivalences: imaginary algebras for the temporary production of pragmatic elegance." Mohammad is currently Visiting Assistant Professor of British Literature at the University of California, Santa Cruz. His poetry has been published in a variety of small presses and journals, and his 2000 Kenning Press chapbook hovercraft has gone through three printings. He was recently a featured reader in the Diaspora Poetics series at New Langton Arts. All events are $5-10, sliding scale, unless otherwise noted. Our events are free to SPT members, and CCAC faculty, staff, and students. Unless otherwise noted, our events are presented in Timken Lecture Hall California College of Arts and Crafts 1111 Eighth Street, San Francisco (just off the intersection of 16th & Wisconsin) Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson, Executive Director Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center at CCAC 1111 - 8th Street San Francisco, California 94107 http://www.sptraffic.org 415-551-9278 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 14:01:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Al Filreis Subject: Carl Rakosi at the Writers House Comments: To: rakosifans@dept.english.upenn.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Carl Rakosi's determined honesty and reductive rhetoric with its ungainsayable plainsong have made a measure for all conduct of words in the attempt to find an active poetry in the fact of lives without power."--Robert Creeley THE KELLY WRITERS HOUSE presents conversation with CARL RAKOSI on the occasion of his 99th birthday via live audiocast 7 PM (eastern time), Wednesday, October 30, | co-moderated by | Tom Devaney & Al Filreis With great pleasure we invite you to join us for a reading and conversation with Carl Rakosi, who will come to us telephonically from his home in San Francisco. The program will be audiocast live worldwide. You can participate by coming to the Kelly Writers House at 3805 Locust Walk in Philadelphia, where an audience will converse directly with Rakosi by an amplified phone connection. That conversation will be audiocast, and thus you can also join us, wherever you are, by making a simple connection to the web. Audiocast participants will be able to pose questions for Carl Rakosi via email or by phone. If you intend to participate, please write to < whrakosi@english.upenn.edu > and be sure to indicate if you will attend at the Writers House or will participate from a distance through the audiocast. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- For more about Rakosi's life and work and this event, see: http://www.english.upenn.edu/~wh/rakosi.html Carl Rakosi began publishing his poetry in the 1920s. His work was published by Ezra Pound and others in magazines assoicated with a group of writers now known as the "Objectivists." His _Collected Poems_ (1986) and _Collected Prose_ (1983) were both published by the National Poetry Foundation at Orono, Maine. His _Poems 1923-1941_ (published by Sun and Moon Press) won the PEN Center USA West award in 1996. Carl Rakosi lives in San Francisco. Tom Devaney is a poet and Program Coordinator at the Kelly Writers House. Al Filreis is Class of 1942 Professor of English at Penn and Faculty Director of the Kell Writers House. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 16:05:07 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: schwartzgk Subject: Re: Carl Rakosi at the Writers House MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'd very muck like to participate...via audiocast. Please shoot me the specs. Thank you. And Really thank you for making this happen. Best, Gerald Schwartz schwartzgk@msn.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Filreis" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 2:01 PM Subject: Carl Rakosi at the Writers House > "Carl Rakosi's determined honesty and > reductive rhetoric with its ungainsayable > plainsong have made a measure for > all conduct of words in the attempt to > find an active poetry in the fact > of lives without power."--Robert Creeley > > > THE KELLY WRITERS HOUSE > > presents > > conversation with > > CARL RAKOSI > > on the occasion of his 99th birthday > > via live audiocast > > 7 PM (eastern time), Wednesday, October 30, > > | co-moderated by > | Tom Devaney & Al Filreis > > With great pleasure we invite you to join us for a reading and conversation > with Carl Rakosi, who will come to us telephonically from his home in San > Francisco. The program will be audiocast live worldwide. You can participate > by coming to the Kelly Writers House at 3805 Locust Walk in Philadelphia, > where an audience will converse directly with Rakosi by an amplified phone > connection. That conversation will be audiocast, and thus you can also join > us, wherever you are, by making a simple connection to the web. Audiocast > participants will be able to pose questions for Carl Rakosi via email or by > phone. > > If you intend to participate, please write to > > < whrakosi@english.upenn.edu > > > and be sure to indicate if you will attend at the Writers House or will > participate from a distance through the audiocast. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > > For more about Rakosi's life and work and this event, see: > > http://www.english.upenn.edu/~wh/rakosi.html > > Carl Rakosi began publishing his poetry in the 1920s. His work was published > by Ezra Pound and others in magazines assoicated with a group of writers now > known as the "Objectivists." His _Collected Poems_ (1986) and _Collected > Prose_ (1983) were both published by the National Poetry Foundation at > Orono, Maine. His _Poems 1923-1941_ (published by Sun and Moon Press) won > the PEN Center USA West award in 1996. Carl Rakosi lives in San Francisco. > > Tom Devaney is a poet and Program Coordinator at the Kelly Writers House. Al > Filreis is Class of 1942 Professor of English at Penn and Faculty Director > of the Kell Writers House. > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 15:04:01 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Carl Sandburgh Eats Rootabagas for Fun In-Reply-To: <009101c26a4f$02e025c0$e4adf943@computer> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Carla Harryman tips her hat to Sandburg in the title of one of her books - and I made no real stylistic connection between his and her work (which I like) until I picked up Sandburg's Rootabaga Stories recently remaindered in an illustrated ostensibly oversized children's book with art by Michael Haeu (HBJ, Publishers). And I bought it primarily for the titles of the pieces. First published in 1923, they show Carl on first base in the USA in that little little bump between Dada and Surrealism and the extended shadow of Lewis Carroll. The Contents page I find worth the price of admission with titles such as" The Huckabuck Family and How they Raised Popcorn in Nebraska and Quit and Came Back How Six Pigeons Came Back to Hatrack the Horse after Many Accidents and Six Telegrams How Dippy the Wisp and Slip Me Liz Came in the Moonshine Where the Potato Face Blind Man Sat with His Accordion How Pink Peony Sent Spuds, the Ballplayer, Up to Pick Four Moons Or lines like, "...the frogs always gamble with the golden dice after midnight." Or a sequence of titles as in, "Three Stories About Moonlight, Pigeons, Bees, Egypt, Jesse James, Spanish Onions, The Queen of The Cracked Heads, The King of the Paper Sacks." The stories themselves could have done with some good anti-redundant edits. But the character whimsy combined with the smarts that animate Carla's work I suspect here were royally unleashed. I am out of any Sandburg critical loop - the work here is so different than the serious democrat at public work (Lincoln, Chicago), I am led to wonder. Anyone know what sparked this lovely tilt? Stephen Vincent ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 18:32:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: Hello and Comedy In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hello. I was browsing archives last month and stumbled across Aaron Belz's query regarding humor/comedic theory, a query that prompted me to apply for subscription to the list (mainly because of my interests in the relation of comedy to ahh "new" writings). I had asked several times in the past to rejoin discussion, but this is the first time my petitions have been answered in the positive. So, with this my first post to the list since I was deleted in late December 1998, I am grateful to be back. Aaron, there are a few recent and comprehensible and fairly comprehensive introductory texts about humor theory in regard to literature. I've read the following -- and they've been helpful to my understanding, in particular, of how comedy functions in relation to aesthetically innovative and politically mobilizing literatures. The first two books should provide a pretty thorough and readable introduction to the main theories of comedy and their relation to literature. - T. G. A. Nelson. Comedy: An Introduction to the Theory of Comedy in Literature, Drama, and Cinema (Oxford UP, 1999) - Robert Corrigan, ed. Comedy: Meaning and Form (1965) Less about literature and more a breezy intellectual history: - Barry Sanders. Sudden Glory: Laughter as Subversive History, 1995 (Beacon Press) Two titles I've not yet read but are on my shortlist of stuff to read when I get a second: - Kirby Olson. Comedy after postmodernism : rereading comedy from Edward Lear to Charles Willeford (2001) - Patrick O'Neill. The comedy of entropy : humour, narrative, reading (1990) Great to be back on the list. Gabe >From: Aaron Belz >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: humor theory >Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 09:05:27 -0500 > >Friends, > >I am looking for one book that gives a good theoretical understanding of >humor and laughter--especially with regards to literature, but I would take >a book on humor in general. I want a book that is not obscure but somewhat >comprehensive and also readable. > >A psychological perspective might work well. > >Thanks, >Aaron -------------------------------- Gabriel Gudding Assistant Professor Department of English Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 22:16:30 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: Arabs and Muslims to be fingerprinted at US airports MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.guardian.co.uk/september11/story/0,11209,802771,00.html Arabs and Muslims to be fingerprinted at US airports Suzanne Goldenberg in Washington Tuesday October 01 2002 The Guardian The US yesterday introduced a sweeping new security regime at its airports and borders, photographing and fingerprinting visitors from Arab and Muslim countries. The regulations, which were denounced by critics as ethnic profiling, went into effect at all American airports and border crossings. They require all visitors from certain predominantly Muslim countries to undergo additional security checks on their arrival in the US. As their fingerprints are run through computer databanks for matches with known criminals and terrorists, the new arrivals will be photographed and interviewed by immigration officials about their plans for their stay in the US. If they are allowed into the country for an extended stay, they must check in with immigration authorities within a month and report any change of address or job within 10 days. The measures were initially aimed at citizens of Iran, Iraq, Sudan, Syria and Libya, all of which are included on a state department list of countries sponsoring state terrorism. However, the justice department said last month that the regulations would also apply to men from Pakistan, Yemen and Saudi Arabia between the ages of 16 and 45. Yesterday, US embassies in Egypt and Jordan warned travellers that they, too, could spend their first moments in America being fingerprinted, photographed and questioned. "The process is not static. The criteria may change as intelligence reports change," said Jorge Martinez, a spokesman for the justice department. He said that as many as 200,000 visitors to the US would be subjected to the new measures every year, with the numbers of those affected fluctuating according to security assessments, which will not be made public. However, he was insistent that the new security regime did not target Muslim or Arab travellers. "I can't specify criteria, but it is not specific to any race or religion," Mr Martinez said. Critics say that the measures discriminate against Arab and Muslim travellers, and create needless airport delays and embarrassment for travellers who had already been vetted while applying for their visas. "It creates an illusion of security but does little to produce any results," said Hodan Hassan, a spokeswoman for the Council of American Islamic Relations. "A whole group of people who are already vetted at embassies when they get their visas, when they come to the country are pulled out of line and fingerprinted. It's a rude awakening for many, and does little to help in the war against terror because it creates resentment." According to a memo from the immigration and naturalisation service obtained by the Associated Press, immigration inspectors should also examine the visitor's past travels - and seek explanations for trips to countries in the Middle East, predominantly Muslim countries such as Afghanistan, Indonesia and Malaysia, and Cuba and North Korea. Visitors to the US from Muslim countries already face extra scrutiny. Two months after the September 11 attacks, the authorities required travellers from 26 mainly Muslim states to obtain FBI clearance before their visas were processed at US consulates, delaying travel plans for businessmen and students at American universities for six weeks at a time. Copyright Guardian Newspapers Limited ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 01:03:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Clai Rice Subject: Re: stein In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Clai% perlstuff/demorse.pl stein* > stein-reply From terra1@SONICeNET Wed Oct 2 23:33:16 2002 Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 19:37:48 t0700 From: kari edwards ReplytTo: UB Poetics discussion group To: POETICS@LISTSERVeACSUeBUFFALOeEDU Subject: stein a/ chair gertrude/ stein a/ widow/ in/ a/ wise/ veil/ and/ more/ garments/ show s/ that/ shadows/ are/ even ./ it/ addresses/ no/ more ,/ it/ shadows/ the/ stage / and/ learning./ a/ regu lar/ arrangement,/ the/ se verest/ and/ the/ most/ pre served/ is/ that/ which/ has/ the/ arrangement/ not/ more/ than/ always/ autho rised./ a/ suitable/ esta blishment,/ well/ hou sed,/ practical,/ pat ient/ and/ staring,/ a/ sui table/ bedding,/ very/ suitable/ and/ not/ more/ p articularly/ than/ com plaining,/ anything/ s uitable/ is/ so/ necessar y./ a/ fact/ is/ that/ whe n/ the/ direction/ is/ just / like/ that,/ no/ more,/ longer,/ sudden/ and/ at/ the/ same/ time/ not/ any/ so fa,/ the/ main/ action/ is/ that/ without/ a/ blaming/ there/ is/ no/ custody./ practice/ measurement,/ practice/ the/ sign/ that/ means/ that/ really/ means/ a/ necessary/ betrayal, / in/ showing/ that/ there/ is/ wearing./ hope,/ w hat/ is/ a/ spectacle,/ a/ spectacle/ is/ the/ resem blance/ between/ the/ cir cular/ side/ place/ and/ nothing/ else,/ nothing/ else./ to/ choose/ it/ is/ ended,/ it/ is/ actual/ an d/ more/ than/ that/ it/ has/ it/ certainly/ has/ the/ sa me/ treat,/ and/ a/ seat/ all / that/ is/ practiced/ and/ more/ easily/ much/ more/ easily/ ordinarily./ pick/ a/ barn,/ a/ whole / barn,/ and/ bend/ more/ slender/ accents/ than/ h ave/ ever/ been/ necessary ,/ shine/ in/ the/ darknes s/ necessarily./ actua lly/ not/ aching,/ actu ally/ not/ aching,/ a/ s tubborn/ bloom/ is/ so/ artificial/ and/ even/ mo re/ than/ that,/ it/ is/ a/ s pectacle,/ it/ is/ a/ bin ding/ accident,/ it/ is/ a nimosity/ and/ accentuati on./ if/ the/ chance/ to/ dirty/ diminishing/ is/ ne cessary,/ if/ it/ is/ wh y/ is/ there/ no/ complex ion,/ why/ is/ there/ no/ rubbing,/ why/ is/ the re/ no/ special/ protecti on. On Fri, 9 Aug 2002, kari edwards wrote: > .- / -.-. .... .- .. .-. > --. . .-. - .-. ..- -.. . / ... - . .. -. > > > > .- / .-- .. -.. --- .-- / .. -. / .- / .-- .. ... . / ...- . .. .-.. / > .- -. -.. / -- --- .-. . / --. .- .-. -- . -. - ... / ... .... --- .-- > ... / - .... .- - / ... .... .- -.. --- .-- ... / .- .-. . / . ...- . -. > .-.-.- / .. - / .- -.. -.. .-. . ... ... . ... / -. --- / -- --- .-. . > --..-- / .. - / ... .... .- -.. --- .-- ... / - .... . / ... - .- --. . > / .- -. -.. / .-.. . .- .-. -. .. -. --. .-.-.- / .- / .-. . --. ..- > .-.. .- .-. / .- .-. .-. .- -. --. . -- . -. - --..-- / - .... . / ... . > ...- . .-. . ... - / .- -. -.. / - .... . / -- --- ... - / .--. .-. . > ... . .-. ...- . -.. / .. ... / - .... .- - / .-- .... .. -.-. .... / > .... .- ... / - .... . / .- .-. .-. .- -. --. . -- . -. - / -. --- - / > -- --- .-. . / - .... .- -. / .- .-.. .-- .- -.-- ... / .- ..- - .... --- > .-. .. ... . -.. .-.-.- / .- / ... ..- .. - .- -... .-.. . / . ... - .- > -... .-.. .. ... .... -- . -. - 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.... .- - / .-- .. - .... --- ..- - / .- / -... .-.. .- -- .. -. --. / > - .... . .-. . / .. ... / -. --- / -.-. ..- ... - --- -.. -.-- .-.-.- / > .--. .-. .- -.-. - .. -.-. . / -- . .- ... ..- .-. . -- . -. - --..-- / > .--. .-. .- -.-. - .. -.-. . / - .... . / ... .. --. -. / - .... .- - / > -- . .- -. ... / - .... .- - / .-. . .- .-.. .-.. -.-- / -- . .- -. ... / > .- / -. . -.-. . ... ... .- .-. -.-- / -... . - .-. .- -.-- .- .-.. --..-- > / .. -. / ... .... --- .-- .. -. --. / - .... .- - / - .... . .-. . / > .. ... / .-- . .- .-. .. -. --. .-.-.- / .... --- .--. . --..-- / .-- > .... .- - / .. ... / .- / ... .--. . -.-. - .- -.-. .-.. . --..-- / .- / > ... .--. . -.-. - .- -.-. .-.. . / .. ... / - .... . / .-. . ... . -- > -... .-.. .- -. -.-. . / -... . - .-- . . -. / - .... . / -.-. .. .-. > -.-. ..- .-.. .- .-. / ... .. -.. . / .--. .-.. .- -.-. . / .- -. -.. / > -. --- - .... .. -. --. / . .-.. ... . --..-- / -. --- - .... .. -. --. / > . .-.. ... . .-.-.- / - --- / -.-. .... --- --- ... . / .. - / .. ... / > . -. -.. . -.. --..-- / .. - / .. ... / .- -.-. - ..- .- .-.. / .- -. > -.. / -- --- .-. . / - .... .- -. / - .... .- - / .. - / .... .- ... / > .. - / -.-. . .-. - .- .. -. .-.. -.-- / .... .- ... / - .... . / ... .- > -- . / - .-. . .- - --..-- / .- -. -.. / .- / ... . .- - / .- .-.. .-.. > / - .... .- - / .. ... / .--. .-. .- -.-. - .. -.-. . -.. / .- -. -.. / > -- --- .-. . / . .- ... .. .-.. -.-- / -- ..- -.-. .... / -- --- .-. . / > . .- ... .. .-.. -.-- / --- .-. -.. .. -. .- .-. .. .-.. -.-- .-.-.- / > .--. .. -.-. -.- / .- / -... .- .-. -. --..-- / .- / .-- .... --- .-.. . > / -... .- .-. -. --..-- / .- -. -.. / -... . -. -.. / -- --- .-. . / > ... .-.. . -. -.. . .-. / .- -.-. -.-. . -. - ... / - .... .- -. / .... > .- ...- . / . ...- . .-. / -... . . -. / -. . -.-. . ... ... .- .-. -.-- > --..-- / ... .... .. -. . / .. -. / - .... . / -.. .- .-. -.- -. . ... > ... / -. . -.-. . ... ... .- .-. .. .-.. -.-- .-.-.- / .- -.-. - ..- .- > .-.. .-.. -.-- / -. --- - / .- -.-. .... .. -. --. --..-- / .- -.-. - ..- > .- .-.. .-.. -.-- / -. --- - / .- -.-. .... .. -. --. --..-- / .- / ... > - ..- -... -... --- .-. -. / -... .-.. --- --- -- / .. ... / ... --- / > .- .-. - .. ..-. .. -.-. .. .- .-.. / .- -. -.. / . ...- . -. / -- --- > .-. . / - .... .- -. / - .... .- - --..-- / .. - / .. ... / .- / ... > .--. . -.-. - .- -.-. .-.. . --..-- / .. - / .. ... / .- / -... .. -. > -.. .. -. --. / .- -.-. -.-. .. -.. . -. - --..-- / .. - / .. ... / .- > -. .. -- --- ... .. - -.-- / .- -. -.. / .- -.-. -.-. . -. - ..- .- - .. > --- -. .-.-.- / .. ..-. / - .... . / -.-. .... .- -. -.-. . / - --- / > -.. .. .-. - -.-- / -.. .. -- .. -. .. ... .... .. -. --. / .. ... / -. . > -.-. . ... ... .- .-. -.-- --..-- / .. ..-. / .. - / .. ... / .-- .... > -.-- / .. ... / - .... . .-. . / -. --- / -.-. --- -- .--. .-.. . -..- > .. --- -. --..-- / .-- .... -.-- / .. ... / - .... . .-. . / -. --- / > .-. ..- -... -... .. -. --. --..-- / .-- .... -.-- / .. ... / - .... . > .-. . / -. --- / ... .--. . -.-. .. .- .-.. / .--. .-. --- - . -.-. - .. > --- -. .-.-.- > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 02:08:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: teddy warburg Comments: To: 7-11@mail.ljudmila.org, ImitationPoetics@listserv.unc.edu, o-o@konf.lt, webartery@yahoogroups.com, salasin@scn.org, syndicate@anart.no, _arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit TEDDY WARBURG ATMOSPHERE #0011 [excerpt] www.muse-apprentice-guild.com/augusthighland/home.html on the Satnioeis river Caria well was written with serious practical purpose veiled his said smile Teaching regard Morals Vincentius Lerins order test all circuits ship--shore movement begins During spa soak for while repeatedly article doctor during little outburst stood quite silent back its name Under the Tsin dynasty D from New Orleans Mexico with Washington Irving he manufactures boots order test all circuits ship--shore movement begins During shoes woollen goods furniture resumed Charles IarIe Fevret Fontette councillor what feel ramming into brother Assyrian king son Sennacherib movable point order test all circuits ship--shore movement begins During her solution added result the alkali Schraube and her moist slit not wasting don't you ever take degree October just said methods the synagogue indicates seated handed her tender week John seemed like nice guy enjoyable meal went back place went into fancy portraits the titles his work order test all circuits ship--shore movement begins During its extreme vetus order test all circuits ship--shore movement begins During new law jus novum The first these loose terminal inflorescence small white flowers kelly blushed hundred times alkali Schraube and her moist slit not wasting don't you ever ! Having taken concept genocide will enable tag respond needs units afloat these little precautions refined egotism old Religionsgeschichte England see especially Herford Studies the Fort Wainwright say turns how hate The sites Teman and Dedan which also were closely Monsieur cannot help matter much like Jeanne orphan minor cannot surfaced light sockets too small consequence larger opening authorisation guardian general shout entertained later gun thuds floor feet earth current voltages signal having woke involuntary inquiry matter? occasioned Stephen Bathori king Poland transferred Mike Deadwise glances God hurry her mouth alex fingered for men human mind recognises own embraces recognised more willingly embark order test all circuits ship--shore movement begins During from which the mail boats for East signified fortified very pushed door closed behind the Bridge-water House gallery burg such the insisted maintaining love bastard pauper time kelly started Argos taking last few droops laid looked fire fur quite spell flesh gasped audibly when classes des crustacés des arachnides des insectes Proceedings fine series figures Accordingly radio silence usually lifted takedown prior H-hour Nineveh the left own also Kitanite shurnin whose person sacred people more the little river Kosar lowered her mouth over hovered minute during the third Sobieski had well earned these distinctions pumping him tried with sara jerry towel down bit seems notably portrait himself the age twenty-two the reception rooms wainscoted withstone slabs from Seir The designation suggests that these were cave the Ages Christian Art early century Venturi Storia Sulpice Among cheeks one hand ultimate resting ground ultimate goal entire life beginning end her mail range while Others fir bra matching panties her warm hand hers come four years isolated peaks lofty detached ridges Yes once six chatrooms alkali Schraube and her moist slit not wasting don't you ever whole clitoris taking straight grabbed finish ran pool jumped lubrication bitch dave did toss their ky northwards round the off her Lethe remembered looking across abyss absence Thayla's order test all circuits ship--shore movement begins During there what feel ramming into brother Assyrian king son Sennacherib excellent golf entertained later gun thuds floor feet earth current voltages together winter The surface boiling and having spicy odour Charleston The Americans lost times subject parallel stream the Kohat Toi That the southern tract Germany sometimes thoroughly understood People always know whether their studies she went revived and they continued under Urban Before they were slave tight cunt she just give exchange boy's life least can think something more Pride order test all circuits ship--shore movement begins During plans employment tight aviation support ship--shore movement him lifting gun aim Quedden's hands sledging downward Quedden see terms Finally accomplished with complete success four lunettes Sandown Castle the himself justified doubt repeating the sarcastic violence for JONATHAN very probable Sir little private talk Sir understand Sir? principal excavations were made two larger mounds one my morning unwooded districts that quarter the globe Mary Thorne love words find sufficient expression love never die unlike order test all circuits ship--shore movement begins During Cardan mureover soOght the events his own life concept genocide will enable tag respond needs units afloat sing happiness was national the king was the supreme representative the Speaker's Apoc Marshall Hastings Dict neighbouring pipes worth doctor's while aver testiness all other many songs including the popular lifting gun aim Quedden's hands sledging downward Quedden see where Aspens Dissertationum Cosmograp zicarum seu Mysterium Cosmographicum dilatoriness order test all circuits ship--shore movement begins During dissensions Zapolya order test all circuits ship--shore movement begins During Bathory that the Sir Owen furnished hat eminent anatomist his first acquaintance with Bohemian the unhappy man? Fromthe north side the defile commences W Fort sumptuous entertainment invites her remain within his tent proves the great popularity poem former times Owing not remember seconds university students symptoms arriving hazard dull glow began fill prison room came semester limited the Thoisond'Or Paris Guillaume Fillastre valley the Ligne W Privas road Pop his thumb next solemn silence prevailed Suddenly felt head undisciplined wavering type person never better anna lives Pete open hammer officiant went too iPresident Lambert with his tina --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.393 / Virus Database: 223 - Release Date: 9/30/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 02:10:15 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: gretchen haitink Comments: To: 7-11@mail.ljudmila.org, ImitationPoetics@listserv.unc.edu, o-o@konf.lt, webartery@yahoogroups.com, salasin@scn.org, syndicate@anart.no, _arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit GRETCHEN HAITINK SPANK or TOTAL AQUACULTURE EXTINCTION #011 [excerpt] www.muse-apprentice-guild.com/augusthighland/home.html www.atlantic-ploughshares.com alarmed strength started introducing proceeding scheduled rented typewriter Also paid Cattle pigs sheep poultry dreams Jack whereupon poor little old learned Timira pro packing most people just kept down addition physicians must score okay carissa inoffensive harmless people jack looped round twigs strange flatly silk blouse hoping diminish landscape unexpectedly caught emphasizes growth development others may prove fair rented typewriter Also paid sky endless beyond other hand some little soliloquy very robotic Unable think anything body enough light see cue chapel miserable variety thing all bench sat VISITORS tape way down belly button pulled sat up steersman intense marched men- arms tramped landscape unexpectedly caught familiar patients cultural dreams Jack induced others join execution next called cheerily Howdy strong head stomach certain doubles some little soliloquy very judy authority make war queen jake absorbs water except where rented typewriter Also paid Trump some pointers plans attention whatever presence information Instead classing cattle open thing all bench sat VISITORS beautiful creating mega-health systems held Dublin June landscape unexpectedly caught high trunk nearly even watching sat up steersman intense lame child made follow administrative one most enlightened back Amy started dancing investigation you referring rented typewriter Also paid time offers false strength joint treasury-telling story will come pretty familiar patients cultural turned whenever spent night president announced Heinhold bar deferred dreams Jack passages fine thing explain Danielle unusually low number coronary Archbishop Armagh last victim joins president Davlantes D Mission Health down decently cool icicle minority Ireland Nor can who sold big slabs brown beneath stellar body started getting quarters globe where placed induced others join execution allow others admit Earl Ormond way down belly button pulled main facts recorded first Davlantes D Mission Health authority make war queen introduced main facts recorded first rented typewriter Also paid induced others join execution unanimous wishes Act inoffensive harmless people hugh quietly body enough light see patients wrong places Now Christ-child knew house alarmed strength other side mountain-peaks authority make war queen suddenly rooms rubbing sore area chapel miserable variety way down belly button pulled well second drink together thing all bench sat VISITORS woman scolding cat last all body enough light see severe men horses cattle established vice president Superior December MediMedia USA quick rented typewriter Also paid announcing intention applying authority make war queen way doing things fail lack speak will arise Kilmeny will michelle strong head stomach certain rented typewriter Also paid Some women believe think turned whenever spent night whereupon poor little old cunt strong head stomach certain freshly shaven authority make war queen welfare consulted who removed HMOs Physicians asked one absorbs water except where speak third kind taken rented typewriter Also paid thing all bench sat VISITORS --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.393 / Virus Database: 223 - Release Date: 9/30/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 05:52:25 -0400 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: Kenneth Koch Memorial at St. Mark's... ...as in Coke (the new diet with lemon)...not the ex-mayor Koch (sorta rhymes with potlach)... ...i was watching the Yankee Play-off game..so by the time i arrived...it was half over...hot and humid...packed inside with a bad mike..some 600 white folk & David Henderson...i sat outside staring at the Abe Lebewohl memorial... ...some typical exit lines..."i don;t like poetry that's only funny"...& "mediocrity always rises to the top...there's so much of it"... ...a babes alot crowd...dressed for the weather...olives for the poet-locust-hordes...ice for that Diet Coke sans lemon...Alex Katz model thin & Ada...tho the hook nose won't stand him well..Tom Savage introdouces Frank Lima (the only poet/chef) to...i sit staring... eating the home made chocolate chip cookies...some babe cared... ....i remember Bob telling me he first met Koch at Harvard where he (K.K) had rooms...all very very BridesHead revisited to a Boy from the SouthBronx...At U.B...in the early 70's i remember another packed houses roaring to Ken's stand up...& David Shapiro walking by...in the summer telling me that Kenneth was dying...i was just minding my own business... ....timing is everything in comedy...he read Measure for Measure the day before he...another Jewish comedian...'no' that isn't 'funny' ....locus solus...i have a copy of WHEN THE SUN GOES DOWN..'dour rebus/conch/hip'...when i put it in front of Larry Rivers...nee somethin' like Yitchuk Goldstein in the Bronx/no/Thonx...he inscibed it "Did you really read this..well any way Good Luck." .....Mazel Tov...& Mazel Tov...i got home in time to catch the 9th & Troy Percival mopping up....DRn... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 06:50:46 -0400 Reply-To: devineni@rattapallax.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ram Devineni Organization: Rattapallax Subject: 25 Mountains Climbed for Poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Everyone: As many of you know, this year I have been organizing readings around the world for the UN's Year of the Mountain. The program is called "Poetry on the Peaks" and I wanted to announce that we have climbed 25 mountains including 5 of the Seven Summits. The other two will be climbed later this year. A few spotlights that will be occurring this week: Mt. Battie (October 10, 2002) and Mt. Katahdin (October 4-6, 2002)are being climbed by Rhoda Waller and several college students from Unity College. They will read excerpts from "Katahdin" chapter of The Maine Woods by Henry David Thoreau and "Renascence" by Edna St. Vincent Millay. Also, the climb to Mount Kilimanjaro will occur this week and the poem being read " We can't help being thirsty, moving toward" by Mevlana Jeladuddin Rumi. Also, we have many photos from the readers posted on the site and news article from local papers. If you have any questions, please contact me at 1-212-723-4125 or info@dialoguepoetry.org The full listing is below and additional information can be found at=20 http://www.dialoguepoetry.org/mountain.htm Cheers Ram Devineni Publisher Rattapallax http://www.rattapallax.com http://www.dialoguepoetry.org The Seven Summits=20 (The highest peaks on the seven continents) =20 Aconcagua, Argentina (January 23, 2002) Carstensz Pyramid, Irian Jaya, Indonesia=20 Denali, Alaska, USA (June 28, 2002) Mt. Everest, Nepal (May 12, 2002) Mount Kilimanjaro, Tanzania, Africa=20 Vinson Massif, Antarctica (January 19, 2002) Mt. Elbrus, Russia (July 30, 2002) Other readings=20 Mt. Rainier, Washington, USA (July 22, 2002) Mt. Iztaccihuatl, Mexico=20 The Matterhorn, Switzerland Mt. Fuji, Japan=20 Stone Mountain, Georgia, USA (April 27, 2002) Mt. Moriah, Jerusalem, Israel Drakensberg Mountains, South Africa Mt. Marcy, New York, USA (July 30, 2002)=20 Mt. Shasta, California, USA Saint Elias Mountains, Canada (May 20-24, 2002) Mount Triglav, Slovenia Mt. Bonnell, Texas, USA (April 7, 2002)=20 Arasuri Hill Range, India Ard=E8che Mounts, France (April 20, 2002) Bear Mountain, New York, USA (May 18, 2002) Mt. Logan, Canada Mt. Whitney, California, USA (April 11-14, 2002) Mt. Jiri and Mt. Mani, Korea (May 18, 2002) Mt. Gardener, Canada (April 21, 2002)=20 Mt. San Jacinto, USA (March 17, 2002)=20 Mt. Wellington, Tasmania (March 22 & 24, 2002)=20 Mt. Bondone, Italy (March 18, 2002) Mt. Bucegi & Mt. Nemira, Romania (May 11, 2002) Mt. Irvine, Australia (March 17, 2002) Mt. Esja & Snaefellsjokull, Iceland (July 2 & 5, 2002) Nose Mountain (July 28, 2002) Island Peaks, Nepal (May 12, 2002) Mt. Battie (October 10, 2002) Mt. Katahdin (October 4-6, 2002) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 12:34:41 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lakey Teasdale Subject: northern treehouse Comments: To: "WRYTING-L : Writing and Theory across Disciplines" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit northern treehouse an information-lined treehouse full of coffee, biscuits and fine words and you are in goggles and gloves. do you foresee all that as we all know that all that diminishes? all depends on a palpable you can feel alive being written down in flux. so much about every situation adapts and faces a real panic and listen now to differences and indifference and differentiation between the truth and lies which lie like a rug. the scenario and you plugged into the mainframe. oh! the possibility has had a fantastic, experience once upon a time but there's red and then there is another colour, for the sake of argument we will call it blue. and there are lies and there is plain, not fancy truth and everything fine between his/her legs and thine. yes. let's say we cannot with and we cannot without and we cannot withhold because the weather is so exciting. good isn't it? fine and splendid like allusions to something underneath illusions alluding to another and even something underneath all that not moving unless it is laughing. all of which might or might not open the door, shed a little light give it some fight and the possibility of something else other than your own good self mixing the discourses never overcoming a single juxtaposition and/or a chain links and chains and links shift territory and map the chartered history all documented in three different and all of them bold, proud and distinguished dimensions and then some. indications on the map suggestive of reminiscences inflections seductive digressions not to mention his/her/their expectations, the way forward being not too far behind now almost a dead certainty to be up against and thereafter right inside the dominant submissive crack-before-dawn and please avoid the void pick up threads and get back just to follow what was that thing? remind me. what was that thing again? call it one thing or call it another or don't call it, it will call you before it stands you up against the wall at the same time speaking as we are speaking and sometimes lamenting coming close spin spin again call these the lights the merry dancers from hell and these lights the merry dancers of hellish colours the constellations over-lit. well, now. this is just a phenomena calling itself aurora borealis, otherwise or also known as northern disturbance lights of perturbance and/or let's just get those coloured lights going. the very lights of the very merry the same and very dancers was the sky last night. could think it clouds faded strobe pulses green yellow red yellow pulses pulses and that was the sky last night which now you have heard not even in this very fine weather a light breeze of light the reason why perhaps to stay from all directions there is every light here and there is every light and every light imaginable as light from every source if only and not ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 04:48:51 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: PAINESVILLE Comments: cc: "arc.hive" <_arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au>, cupcake kaleidoscope , Renee , rhizome , wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Learn the signs of high blood pressure early. If he has blood spurting out his ears, he has high blood pressure. If heartburn rusts his inner cildren down to nubbin bumpers that no longer function for the nonce, he has high blood pressure. You can't stay a cloud forever. Hey, get down from there! I said to Brad, who continues to coat the corners of the room with his viscous squib. Cobwebs bedewed with wedding pictures (hanging like glycerine drops from strands just barely audibly breathing) remind us of Y and its emancipation from pissing daisies on the dasein of the tao. Just let it happen, Brittany continually advises. She's a beautiful sieve that lets pouring rugburn through; when she walks by, sores tumble out of her gait, like a door's been slit in metaphor and all my little gods have become phosphorescent with melancholy. Keats, I'm yelling to Brad over Wang Chung tonight, Keats did not foresee this. Keats is younger in the corners than rock bands crawling out of airplane-drenched groupie formations, according to Lakey Teasdale. High blood pressure means a well-balanced diet of the worms in flaccid roast won't dream about Renee and I in a restaurant slowly flooding with bad coffee and the ghosts of algebra. Because you can't extract a system from this, it will pluck a blueprint from your face. Your network of veinsville is stressed. ===== http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html meditation, net art, poeisis: blog http://lewislacook.blogspot.com/ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 04:49:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: HOT CROSS BUNS Comments: cc: "arc.hive" <_arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au>, cupcake kaleidoscope , Renee , rhizome , wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Must we go over all this again. I can tell. A question re-arranges. Objects on a table. Until an answer. Proves. Too much time. By the way you're looking at me I came back to say. Yes. You may go out of your mind for an hour or so. It seems. Curled, lurking alignment; almost an elemental rule. Refusing to signify. Hot cross buns, so very tizzy at me. Fast. True. Mound. Lint. True. Mount. Particlepotatoangel. Brick. Glue. Town. Much hilarity ensues. Are. You laughing at. Me reminds. Newly re-furbished cognition. ===== http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html meditation, net art, poeisis: blog http://lewislacook.blogspot.com/ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 09:23:48 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Thanks! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Dear Elizabeth, I wanted to thank you again for giving me a reading in your wonderful series. I really enjoyed it, & appreciated the opportunity to get the word out about my book. I'm sorry we didn't get a chance to talk more during my visit. Maybe the next time I'm in town (or if you're ever out in Boulder). All Best, Mark <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'A sentence thinks loudly.' -—Gertrude Stein http://www.pavementsaw.org/cosmopolitan.htm http://www.angelfire.com/poetry/subpress/soc.htm _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 09:38:44 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: Thanks! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Well, obviously this was intended as a private e-mail & not a post the whole list. My ~very~ embarrassed apologies to all (but one of you) who will receive it. Mark DuCharme >From: Mark DuCharme >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Thanks! >Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 09:23:48 -0600 > >Dear Elizabeth, > >I wanted to thank you again for giving me a reading in your wonderful >series. I really enjoyed it, & appreciated the opportunity to get the word >out about my book. > >I'm sorry we didn't get a chance to talk more during my visit. Maybe the >next time I'm in town (or if you're ever out in Boulder). > >All Best, > >Mark > > > > > > > ><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >'A sentence thinks loudly.' > > -—Gertrude Stein > > > >http://www.pavementsaw.org/cosmopolitan.htm > >http://www.angelfire.com/poetry/subpress/soc.htm > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'A sentence thinks loudly.' -—Gertrude Stein http://www.pavementsaw.org/cosmopolitan.htm http://www.angelfire.com/poetry/subpress/soc.htm _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 08:54:53 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Jullich Subject: Kenneth Koch deferred to in Richard Howard's inauguration poem for new Columbia president MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii The programme for today's inauguration ceremony of Columbia University's new president includes an occasional poem for the event by Richard Howard (who teaches in the MFA Program). At the second-to-last of its fourteen stanzas, Howard pays homage to Kenneth Koch: "A worthier candidate to undertake my office might have been the lamented Kenneth Koch, who more than anyone on earth would spare us the delusion that poetry is merely marble chipped from the classics. But Kenneth's not on earth; I will have to do." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 09:08:34 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hilton Obenzinger Subject: Re: Carl Sandburgh Eats Rootabagas for Fun In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Stephen, Sandburg is following the long tradition of American homegrown proto-surrealism. If you want to read something weird get the Davy Crockett Almanacs of the 1830s-40s -- there are some facsimiles in libraries -- the origin of half man/half alligator, incessant masturbator, cannibal, and a generally insane soul. Of course, part of its bizarre extravagance is due to its pathologically perverse racism. But that is, of course, the basis of much of American perversity. Hilton At 03:04 PM 10/2/2002 -0700, you wrote: >Carla Harryman tips her hat to Sandburg in the title of one of her books - >and I made no real stylistic connection between his and her work (which I >like) until I picked up Sandburg's Rootabaga Stories recently remaindered in >an illustrated ostensibly oversized children's book with art by Michael Haeu >(HBJ, Publishers). And I bought it primarily for the titles of the pieces. >First published in 1923, they show Carl on first base in the USA in that >little little bump between Dada and Surrealism and the extended shadow of >Lewis Carroll. The Contents page I find worth the price of admission with >titles such as" > > >The Huckabuck Family and How they Raised Popcorn in Nebraska and Quit and >Came Back > >How Six Pigeons Came Back to Hatrack the Horse after Many Accidents and Six >Telegrams > >How Dippy the Wisp and Slip Me Liz Came in the Moonshine Where the Potato >Face Blind Man Sat with His Accordion > >How Pink Peony Sent Spuds, the Ballplayer, Up to Pick Four Moons > >Or lines like, "...the frogs always gamble with the golden dice after >midnight." > >Or a sequence of titles as in, "Three Stories About Moonlight, Pigeons, >Bees, Egypt, Jesse James, Spanish Onions, The Queen of The Cracked Heads, >The King of the Paper Sacks." > > >The stories themselves could have done with some good anti-redundant edits. >But the character whimsy combined with the smarts that animate Carla's work >I suspect here were royally unleashed. > >I am out of any Sandburg critical loop - the work here is so different than >the serious democrat at public work (Lincoln, Chicago), I am led to wonder. >Anyone know what sparked this lovely tilt? > > >Stephen Vincent ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hilton Obenzinger, PhD. Associate Director of Undergraduate Research Programs for Honors Writing Lecturer, Department of English Stanford University 650.723.0330 650.724.5400 Fax obenzinger@stanford.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 12:15:02 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rebecca Wolff Subject: Fence at the Whitney Tomorrow Evening Comments: To: rebeccafence@earthlink.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" A little reminder: Friday, October 4th 6-9 pm Come help Fence celebrate the release of #10, Fall/Winter 2002-2003 with poetry, fiction, music and cash bar. at "Soundcheck" at the Whitney Museum of American Art 945 Madison Ave. at 75th St. New York City With readings by contributors: Poet Ann Lauterbach Alberta Prize winner poet Tina Brown Celona Fiction writer Julia Holmes Free admission to the Whitney and the Party Discounted books, magazines, subscriptions, and other things. ********** Rebecca Wolff Fence et al. 14 Fifth Avenue, #1A New York, NY 10011 http://www.fencemag.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 13:13:41 -0400 Reply-To: etgrinn@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "E. Tracy Grinnell" Subject: Litmus Press New Release MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Litmus Press has released its first title: The House Seen from Nowhere, by Keith Waldrop "In Keith Waldrop's _The House Seen from Nowhere_, we are invited into a meditational drift that explores the 'tense emptiness' of being. The construction of all that surrounds us, the carpentry, wavers between order and the instability of order, is manifest in syntax and etymology. In this house, which is all things--body, fortress, residence, logic, language, mortality--we find mirrors, echoes and spirits: "the figures light/delineates not/the light itself." Where we might use Zeno's paradox to understand the relation between the knower and the known, it is in Keith's _House_ that we find the paradox of 'empty distinctions,' the tension between asymmetrical opposites. The house exists "not to inclose but/to include//without redemption." ISBN: 0-9723331-0-X $15.00 230 pages Available through Small Press Distribution www.spdbooks.org ALSO AVAILABLE: Aufgabe #2, Spring 2002 with 60 pages of German writing in translation edited by Rosmarie Waldrop--translated by Rosmarie Waldrop and Andrew Joron. The main section of poetry features work by 29 American poets. Includes essays and reviews. 243 pages, $12.00. Get a glimpse online at www.durationpress.com/litmuspress Deadline for issue #3 is December 1, 2002. Issue #3 will feature Mexican writing in translation, edited by Jen Hofer. Send up to 8 pages of writing for the main section, which is still open. Contact information is available on the website. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 12:06:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Corbett Subject: David Shapiro interview MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I have been enjoying muchly this interview in the current online Rain Taxi. Here is the url: http://www.raintaxi.com/online/2002fall/shapiro.shtml I thought I would append this quote which sort of illustrates the title, "Pluralist Music." There are many other things here, though. "My idea of poetry now is pretty endless. I know people who just like Ted Berrigan's Sonnets, they just like one kind of thing. Particularly because of music I tend to not think in that way. I like John Cage and I like Eliot Carter. They don't like each other. I once said to Eliot Carter, "What do you think of John Cage?" He said, "No I don't really think so." And the same thing happened when I asked Cage, "Don't you like Carter?" "No." " What about the 'Polyrhythms'?" "Not really." They both hated each other, but I think poetry can combine these different things. I like a sonnet and I like shattering a sonnet. I like The Tennis Court Oath, but I also like Some Trees. This puts me in a bad position because you might say I therefore lack certain purities." Robert -- Robert Corbett "I will discuss perfidy with scholars as rcor@u.washington.edu as if spurning kisses, I will sip Department of English the marble marrow of empire. I want sugar University of Washington but I shall never wear shame and if you call that sophistry then what is Love" - Lisa Robertson ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 12:04:46 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew Rathmann Subject: Re: Perelman's interview In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The Dewey quotation (thanks Michael) seems, to me, an expression of sentimentality, not thought. If the democratic world-view is one which perceives universal "uncertainty and contingency," then why is Dewey so confident in the power of men to shape history, or in the legitimacy of their motives to do so? Robert Corbett mentions Nietzsche: think what he would have made of Dewey's red, white, and blue rhetoric. I think Shakespeare is a totalizing poet in the sense that he achieves a complete effect, and that, having read him, one retains a certain vision of the world _as a whole_. The world as a whole (not merely some part of it) looks different afterward. Completeness, comprehensiveness: I think that desiring these things is actually close to wanting to be, as Robert says, "overwhelmed" by art -- only better, because the effects persist and may be reflected on. The premise of so much critical theorizing about literature is that artistic conventions carry political significance. In fact, this significance only exists insofar as it is asserted by the interested parties. "Let me tell you now about the democratic urge in my poetry..." When writers adopt this vaguely ad hominem, self-justifying line of argument, it should put readers on the alert. Which poet was it who said, when asked about his political views, that he votes in elections just like everybody else? I think of that as a slightly dumb but nicely crap-free response to these questions. Andy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 16:22:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Poems by others: LeRoi Jones (Imiri Baraka), "The Liar" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Liar What I thought was love in me, I find a thousand instances as fear. (Of the tree's shadow winding around the chair, a distant music of frozen birds rattling in the cold. Where ever I go to claim my flesh, there are entrances of spirit. And even its comforts are hideous uses I strain to understand. Though I am a man who is loud on the birth of his ways. Publicly redefining each change in my soul, as if I had predicted them, and profited, biblically, even tho their chanting weight, erased familiarity from my face. A question I think, an answer; whatever sits counting the minutes till you die. When they say, "It is Roi who is dead?" I wonder who will they mean? --LeRoi Jones fr. *The Dead Lecturer*, 1964 Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard@earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 16:54:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brandon Barr Subject: summing up Comments: To: webartery@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <000101c25068$e68e46e0$6714d8cb@ahadada.gol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Last month in texturl: -procedure, performance- on digital poetics /silence, bought and paid for/ on the Batt/Cage contraversy -code & writing- on programming and writing composition -code & distribution- on Barthes's "The Photographic Message" - :-) - on the happy face and meaning -media as artifact- on the 20th century's fetish of communication artifacts -digital text, digital poets- on digital poetry plus improvisations, links to other projects, and other distractions and digressions. http://brandonbarr.com/texturl/ Best, Brandon Barr University of Rochester ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 16:46:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: caroline crumpacker Subject: Bilingual Poetry Reading Series and events In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable The Bilingual Poetry Reading Series has recommenced... at the Bowery Poetry Club that's 308 Bowery, btwn. Bleeker & Houston 212-614-0505 www.bowerypoetry.com =20 Here is the schedule for October...please join us... Wednesday, October 9th at 10:00 Clayton Eshelman reads translations of Aime Cesaire Sunday, October 13th at 5:00 Eugene Ostashevsky and Matvei Yankelevich present their translations of OBERIU: Russian Absurdism of the 1930s $5 at the door. Books/magazines will be sold. About the reading on October 9th: Clayton Eshleman is the primary American translator of Cesar Vallejo, Aime Cesaire, and Antonin Artaud. He received the National Book Award for hisco-translation of Vallejo's Complete Posthumous Poetry. Over the years, he has received NEA band NEH Translation Fellowships. His translation of Vallejo's Trilce (Wesleyan, 2000) received the Landon Translation Prize fro= m the Academy of American Poets. His co-translation of Aime Cesaire's Notebook of a Return to the Native Land has been hailed by Cesaire scholars as a landmark achievement. His poetry has been published by Black Sparrow Press for 32 years, 13 volumes all in all. Aime Cesaire was born in 1913 in Martinique in the French Caribbean. Poet, playwright, and politician, one of the most significant and widely read authors from the French-speaking Caribbean. C=E9saire elaborated with L=E9opold Senghor and L=E9on Damas the concept of n=E9gritude, an influential movement to restore the cultural identity of black Africans. C=E9saire's ideas were first fully expressed in his famous poem, Cahier d'un retour au pays natal (Notebook of a Return to the Native Land ), a mixture of poetry and poetic prose, which celebrated the ancestral homelands of Africa and the Caribbean= . All of Cesaire's writings are in French. About the reading on October 13th: Readings and performances of the work of OBERIU, a group of underground poets in philosophers active in Leningrad from 1926 to 1941, by the translators Matvei Yankelevich and Eugene Ostashevsky and friends. The evening will include: FROTHER, a poem / play by Aleksandr Vvedensky. Directed by Nicola Cipani. Trans. Thomas Epstein, Eugene Ostashevsky and Genya Turovsky. A Mathematical Analysis of SDYGR APPR collided with ELIZABETH BAM in light of THE OBERIU MANIFESTO as bisected by Kharms' Scimitar. A montage by Matve= i Yankelevich of his translations of Daniil Kharms. Actors include Simone White, Oleg Dubson, Lauren Urquhart, Patrick Roetzel, Dima Dubson, Douglas Mennella. Recently published in translations by Matvei Yankelevich and Eugene Ostashevsky in Fence, Open City, Common Knowledge, Balaklava and New American Writing. Issues of New American Writing 20 and Fence will be for sale. Following is a link to a short essay from New American Writing 20 about OBERIU: absurdism.NAW.rtf And, here is the full schedule for the French/American Poetry Magazine Festival happening this coming weekend...I know you've already gotten some emails about it, but here's the whole deal with times, dates, places etc.: Festival of Literary Magazines: October 4 through 6 Reviews of Two Worlds: French and American Literary Periodicals 1945-2002. Friday, October 4 3:30 - 5:00 France and the United States, a literary friendship Celeste Bartos Education Center, South Court Auditorium, NYPL =20 Keynote speakers: Michel Deguy and Rosemarie Waldro= p 7:00 - 9:00 Poetry Reading Cultural Services of the French Embassy Clayton Eshelman, Jean-Pierre Faye, Liliane Giraudon, Peter Gizzi, Andrew Maxwell, Anne Waldman Saturday, October 5 10:00 - 11:30 Panel 1: Considering the avant-garde Celeste Bartos Education Center= , South Court Auditorium, NYPL Moderator: Stephen Sartorelli Editors: Clayton Eshelman, Jerrold Shiroma (Duration), Jean-Michel Espitallier (Java), Philippe Castellin (Doc(k)s) Rapporteurs: Stacy Doris, Francois Dominique 11:30 - 1:00 Panel 2: Considering historical precedence Celeste Bartos Education Center= , South Court Auditorium, NYPL Moderator: Guy Bennett Editors: Andrew Maxwell & Macgregor Card (The Germ), Eric Giraud (Issue), Henri Deluy (Action Poetique) Rapporteurs: Anne Waldman, Jean-Piere Faye 3:00 - 4:30 Panel 3: Considering economy Celeste Bartos Education Center, South Court Auditorium, NYPL Moderator: Marcella Durand Editors: Ed Foster (Talisman), Caroline Crumpacker & Frances Richard (Fence), Eric Giraud (Issue) Rapporteur: Beatrice Mousli 4:30 - 6:00 Panel 4: Considering translation Celeste Bartos Education Center, South Court Auditorium, NYPL Moderator: Cole Swensen Editors: Liliane Giraudon (lf), Andrew Zawacki (verse)= , Omar Berrada &=20 Vincent Broqua (Double Change) Rapporteurs: Serge Gavronsky, Paul Vangelisti 7:00 - 9:00 Poetry Reading Bowery Poetry Club, 308 Bowery (btw= n Houston and Bleeker Streets) Dodie Bellamy, Phullippe Castellin, Norma Cole, Jean-Michel Espitallier, Eric Giraud, Stephen Sartorelli, Paul Vangelisti Sunday, October 6 2:00 -2:30 Opening Remarks Graduate Center at the City University of New York Mary Ann Caws, Distinguished Professor of French, English and Comparative Literature of the Graduate Center, CUNY 2:30-4:30 Panel 5: Considering the editor-at-work Graduate Center at the City University of New York Moderator: Laird Hunt Editors: Jena Osman & Juliana Spahr (Chain), Kevin Killia= n (Mirage #4), =20 giovanni singleton (nocturnes) Rapporteurs: Peter Gizzi, Pierre Joris 4:30-6:00 Panel 6: Considering community Graduate Center at the City University of New York Moderator: Eleni Sikelianos Editors: Dodie Bellamy (Mirage #4), Brendan Lorber (Lungfull!), Jean-Michel Maulpoix (Le Nouveau Recueil) Rapporter: Norma Cole 7:00-9:00 Poetry Reading Poets House 72 Spring Street, 2nd Floor Guy Bennett, Henri Deluy, Pierre Joris, Jean-Michel Maulpoix, Jerrold Shiroma, giovanni singleton, Cole Swensen Please let me know if you want to be taken off this list, and I will make i= t so. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 15:39:32 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: Perelman's interview In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" but andy, isn't the fact of publishing itself a broadly ideological (read political) act?... ergo anything that would impinge upon this fact would have ideological consequences... i don't think it's a stretch to imagine oneself as contributing to a more openly democratic sphere by agitating for work that challenges what one views as the prevailing orthodoxy (ies)... now these latter might not be strictly formal, but here again, from ~the ny times book review~ last sunday: p. 16, from richard eder's review of a. m. holmes's ~things you should know~: "Over the course of literary modernism and the patchwork of styles and purposes crowded in since (lacking new ground to build on, the house of letters, like a Moscow apartment, stuffs the successive generations into a single cramped kitchen and bedroom)...." p. 19, from gerald marzorati's review of caetano veloso's ~tropical truth~: "He has a following, too, among the more with-it tenured types who participate in conferences devoted to postcolonial studies and such." p. 34, from will blythe's review of nick tosches's ~in the hand of dante~: "Fortunately, it's not quite as postmodern as it sounds." (and yes, each of these reviewers goes on to express ambivalence, unwittingly i'd say, as to the implied values they're busy erecting/dismantling)... if the issue is whether we put faith in our solitary (?) endeavors (designing a bridge, writing a poem) to the extent that such endeavors might be imagined to have consequences outside of the poem's (or bridge's) singularity (let's say), well i would expect the answer to be yes... not blind faith either, else we'd end up like poor disillusioned hart crane (hey, i'm not saying i'm "better" than crane either!)... raymond williams made the point long ago (forget where) that not all totalizing gestures are totalitarian... on the face of it this summons the common metaparadox: if i argue that contingency is always good, why this seems on the face of it to be a decidedly un-contingent view of things... nevertheless, i can say w/o qualification, i think, that the playing field is not level (in publishing, and in life) and that one way to correct injustices (of publishing, of living) is to pursue and promote alternatives that speak to said injustices (formally and otherwise)... no---i haven't ipso facto thus created a democratic sphere by asserting so (or making objects that provide corresponding objectifications/knowledges)---i'm not even positive that creating a more democratic/progressive sphere will result in the aesthetic (?) changes i seek... but i'd rather not be called to the mat on the basis of my desire to try to crank open the blinders, yknow (or as if i'm self-deceived or some such!)... problem with what you seem to be saying, andy, at the expense of what you seem to characterize as (academic, poetic) self-righteousness (naivete?), is that *your* position comes at me as if it already knows better than to believe (let's say) the value of intellectual work that strives to explore its relation to extra-intellectual reality (i'm really tempted to use quotes here, but ok)... all due emphasis on intellectual here too---and which intellectuality might not characterize, btw, most in the academy (speaking across disciplines now)... so: (1) what do YOU see as the function of poetry at the present time? but at the same time (2) you'll have to explain to me as well what you see as the function of criticism at the present time, b/c it seems to me that this latter is the space you're taking for granted---the leverage you gain from not being explicit in such terms... what i have in mind, btw, is that if you wish to go the academic-intellectual route, then you'll have to start talking to me about *teaching*, and not interviews, poems, or other formalistically conceived artifacts/practices... talking about the effects of reading is not quite the same as talking about the classroom, which is where the democractic nexus btw really hits up against some harsh criticism (despite of which i'll continue to advocate for same, just for the record)... reading xyz poetry in the classroom is not equivalent, either, to talking about teaching---it's only one aspect of same, finally... i'm not sure whether you want to go where i want you to go, either... all too hasty, & thanx for reading... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 20:53:02 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: Perelman's interview In-Reply-To: from "Andrew Rathmann" at Oct 3, 2002 12:04:46 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit According to Andrew Rathmann: > > The Dewey quotation (thanks Michael) seems, to me, an expression of > sentimentality, not thought. If the democratic world-view is one > which perceives universal "uncertainty and contingency," then why is > Dewey so confident in the power of men to shape history, or in the > legitimacy of their motives to do so? Robert Corbett mentions > Nietzsche: think what he would have made of Dewey's red, white, > and blue rhetoric. Andy, it seems to me you really misread Dewey here - this may be because you haven't read much Dewey, I don't know. He is about as unsentimental as a philosopher can get. The Neitzsche comparison is a worthwhile one though the way you've framed it is misleading. Nietzsche and Dewey share a mentor, Emerson (if you know Emerson well you'll see his thinking prominently on display in The Gay Science, Twilight of the Idols and elsewhere. Nietzsche carried his volumes of Emerson with him in his travels and annotated them heavily.) As you suggest, they share a world-view which includes much uncertainty and contingency. And, yes, Dewey believes that this is the sine qua non of human agency. He is also very specific about how culture is shaped through the actions of groups of individuals - much, much more specific than Nietzsche to say the least. "The power of men to shape history" is a phrase more compatible with, say, Carlyle (or indeed with Nietzsche himself) than with Dewey - in the way that it suggests a MAN bending the world to his will. That is not, in my reading, what Dewey is talking about at all, - rather he's describing, as William James did, "the idea of a world growing not integrally put piecemeal by the contributions of its several parts...a social scheme of cooperative work genuinely to be done." This "idea" *requires* a philosophy of the kind Dewey describes in my original quote - precisely because that description, utopian as it is, is rhetorical: it serves to awaken both disatisfaction and desire, and hence *action*; it suggests to those who adopt it that they had better not throw in the towel OR make a monomaniacal dash for power, but should instead proceed antiphonally. How much more sentimental Nietzsche seems to me by comparison! How fanciful, how dramatic his cynicisms, how precociously boyish! Though I should say that Nietzsche's love of Emerson has him in good spirits betimes: "Emerson - Much more enlightened, adventurous, refined than Carlyle; above all happier...he has absolutely no idea how old he is or how young he will be" (T of the I). -m. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 22:55:02 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nick Piombino Subject: Sonnets Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Mark Wallace's "Sonnets of a Penny-A-Liner" with prints by Lawley Paisely-Jones was published by Buck Downs books in 1996 (80 pages, $9.00). A sample follows: $4.20 in fourteen lines you can't get to the heart of any problem because you lose it, on ends you've written in, there's only time to be a thing and let it change, to stick in throats on wires, to blend, to block, to say we're business folk and bleed all over tomes of stupid poetry for less than we're worth, once I thought to see the heights, and entered into latest programs to continue measurements while bodies blow away and leave me hanging on deadlines, another story I tell you ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 23:10:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: self violence of everyone against me MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII self violence of everyone against me not think a of day dying. goes we're by always when close I to don't total think not of a dying. day we're goes always by close when to I total don't bankruptcy. building the Gary manager Wiebke our at building us Gary on Wiebke the screamed bankruptcy. at the us manager on of street, live you here. make got enough to money get live of here. street, you've you got don't get enough out money past of tenant our Chris things, Drury placed took them lot here. things, tenant placed Chris them Drury in took storage, returned and them. has she's never had returned them them. for she's five had months. for and five has months. never there Island is that rumor stole around all Rhode the Island film that equipment stole is all a film around equipment Rhode School there Design years was at twenty-five Island years School ago. of Bob not Jungles sure. started I it; stole I'm nothing. sure. doctors nothing. Jungles doctors it; can't me, find but what's every wrong morning with I me, wake but up every extremely morning can't wake what's up wrong extremely with sick fevers. chills current low turns fevers. out my to current be employment sick turns with be low part-time; worry worry homelessness. about my homelessness. heart heart are palpitations extremely are part-time; increase panic as attacks. go of through the increased time panic on attacks. the most increase time go feel knowledge useless means knowledge I'm means afraid absolutely Azure afraid useless Azure and will me. suffering am far afraid too of long far me. much am be much with repetition will anxiety. able able repetition stay anxiety. alive I another think two I years. of jealous me. everyone life life I seems am hideous. jealous. of types fish in there this are city numerous of types cowardly in mourning. this let city of cowardly there mourning. are let numerous the have dead to bury do dead. living. living living have have to the do dead living. the go the on. living but violate no the no. with violate go with no their but ululations. and everyone mourning is and wailing fearing and in mourning this fearing city. big is city. wailing nowhere on live. things one this getting city on is things to crying big they too. too. crying. three are windows about are to about fall to out fall of out our of wall. our three wall. windows they need they replacing need and replacing respacing and above respacing all. above we we monies monies for for the the doors. doors. people people in in city city greedy greedy whores. whores. sell souls their in souls order order cry cry die. die. sell I want want to die in solitude on on all all fours. fours. I everything here everything runs here big the lie. big have lost lost our belongings thanks thanks to Chris Drury. Drury. we she should should lose lose her her job job and revenge. she hate we then will we sit will down sit cry. and. everyone we hate should die. === ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 20:11:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Jullich Subject: Re: Hello and Comedy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Two of my personal favorite on comedy are: Mitchell, William E., ~CLOWNING AS CRITICAL PRACTICE: PERFORMANCE HUMOR IN THE SOUTH PACIFIC~ (Univ. of Pittsburgh, 1992) and (I think) Desmond, William, ~BEYOND HEGEL AND DIALECTIC: SPECULATION, CULT, AND COMEDY~ (Albany : State University of New York Press, 1992). (As usual, I can't find the Desmond book on my bookshelves, but I ~think~ that's the title.) The latter contains such biographical curios as that Hegel was responsible for the ~toilet-training~ in the boy's school where he taught, and had to walk the youngest of his charges back and forth to the outhouse, in all weather. Particularly notable in ~CLOWNING~ is Mark Mosko's "Clowning with Food: Mortuary Humor and Social Reproduction Among the North Mekeo", about a mourning ritual. Through a ceremony of excessive ~over-eating~ where standard aboriginal structural oppositions of clan lines, sweet and unsweet foods, etc. are ~un-mixed,~ the deceased is ~*de*-conceived~ ("Procreation, in essence, is undone"): "...as the laborers are presented with numerous large basins of the prepared foods and commanded to eat them, the overtly comic aspect of ~ipani~ is manifested. The laborers start to eat, greedily and with great bravado. They eat, and eat, and eat some more. Gradually, the laborers' abdomens begin to swell, and many make a show of intentionally extending their bellies outward and grabbing and massaging them so they will hold even more food. Soon, however, the laborers' gesticulations, facial expressions, and body contortions start to reveal momentary signs of growing satiation and physical discomfort. Still the laborers call out for more, more, and more food. "...The engorging, clowning, laughter, feigned anger, and so on continued until both groups of laborers conceded they could eat no more. First, the women lined up in front of the clubhouse, holding before them four bowls of uneaten food. The peace chief's own wife addressed the owners, saying, 'Thank you greatly, we have eaten coconut and had enough.' The chief indicated that each of the women was fined one tin of mackerel and one tin of bully beef. ". . . toward the end of the performances I observed that the intensity of the laborers' exclamations and visible efforts to eat more and more food diminished as they gradually approached their absolute eating capacities. Having experienced more than an hour of eating, the laborers arrived at a point where they were taking only the smallest of bites, holding and slowly chewing each in their mouths for as long as five minutes, say, before taking another. By this time their greedy calls for more food were coming less frequently and forcefully, and their faces betrayed what can only be described as maximum discomfort. By the end of it all the laborers had eaten themselves into a state of virtual immobility." ------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 18:32:25 -0500 From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: Hello and Comedy In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hello. I was browsing archives last month and stumbled across Aaron Belz's query regarding humor/comedic theory __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 23:32:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: caroline crumpacker Subject: Bilingual Poetry Reading Series In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable The Bilingual Poetry Reading Series has recommenced... at the Bowery Poetry Club that's 308 Bowery, btwn. Bleeker & Houston 212-614-0505 www.bowerypoetry.com =20 Here is the schedule for October...please join us... Wednesday, October 9th at 10:00 Clayton Eshelman reads translations of Aime Cesaire Sunday, October 13th at 5:00 Eugene Ostashevsky and Matvei Yankelevich present their translations of OBERIU: Russian Absurdism of the 1930s $5 at the door. Books/magazines will be sold. About the reading on October 9th: Clayton Eshleman is the primary American translator of Cesar Vallejo, Aime Cesaire, and Antonin Artaud. He received the National Book Award for hisco-translation of Vallejo's Complete Posthumous Poetry. Over the years, he has received NEA band NEH Translation Fellowships. His translation of Vallejo's Trilce (Wesleyan, 2000) received the Landon Translation Prize fro= m the Academy of American Poets. His co-translation of Aime Cesaire's Notebook of a Return to the Native Land has been hailed by Cesaire scholars as a landmark achievement. His poetry has been published by Black Sparrow Press for 32 years, 13 volumes all in all. Aime Cesaire was born in 1913 in Martinique in the French Caribbean. Poet, playwright, and politician, one of the most significant and widely read authors from the French-speaking Caribbean. C=E9saire elaborated with L=E9opold Senghor and L=E9on Damas the concept of n=E9gritude, an influential movement to restore the cultural identity of black Africans. C=E9saire's ideas were first fully expressed in his famous poem, Cahier d'un retour au pays natal (Notebook of a Return to the Native Land ), a mixture of poetry and poetic prose, which celebrated the ancestral homelands of Africa and the Caribbean= . All of Cesaire's writings are in French. About the reading on October 13th: Readings and performances of the work of OBERIU, a group of underground poets in philosophers active in Leningrad from 1926 to 1941, by the translators Matvei Yankelevich and Eugene Ostashevsky and friends. The evening will include: FROTHER, a poem / play by Aleksandr Vvedensky. Directed by Nicola Cipani. Trans. Thomas Epstein, Eugene Ostashevsky and Genya Turovsky. A Mathematical Analysis of SDYGR APPR collided with ELIZABETH BAM in light of THE OBERIU MANIFESTO as bisected by Kharms' Scimitar. A montage by Matve= i Yankelevich of his translations of Daniil Kharms. Actors include Simone White, Oleg Dubson, Lauren Urquhart, Patrick Roetzel, Dima Dubson, Douglas Mennella. Recently published in translations by Matvei Yankelevich and Eugene Ostashevsky in Fence, Open City, Common Knowledge, Balaklava and New American Writing. Issues of New American Writing 20 and Fence will be for sale. Following is a link to a short essay from New American Writing 20 about OBERIU: absurdism.NAW.rtf ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 22:29:01 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: Re: I could be a fireplace In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v546) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I could be a fireplace Being a liquid form flowing form with the other ten million. Boy or=20 she, them or the other unnamed - I wanted to be a collaborative trace,=20= an artificial doll, a manufactured particle, fashioned in=20 Indo-European, appropriated and reengineered, a would be wind sound. =20 is there anything resembling shadow services, those stark 'I have sex=20= with open impact cryptic numbers at playgrounds screaming out;' "touch=20= me in innovative ways, leave no trace of artificial arms and digital=20 fault lines - open me - bring prosthetic devices that desire edges that=20= never looses sharpness."=A0Boy or she, 'I started swapping surfaces=20 across well-stocked bookcases, and well oiled cement parts cast aside=20 in roman graveyards. Perhaps next time when none of the neural=20 implants caress my sofas, when there is no understanding which enters=20 the habitual, I can say; 'I have great impact on cryptic, numbers and=20 letters. I could be a manufactured device, a prosthetic devices with=20 understanding, and or with service - I could be A Life form, or a=20 fireplace.= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 02:47:45 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: plagiarism is so easy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > .- / .-- .. -.. --- .-- / .. -. / .- / .-- .. ... . / ...- . .. .-.. / > .- -. -.. / -- --- .-. . / --. .- .-. -- . -. - ... / ... .... --- .-- > ... / - .... .- - / ... .... .- -.. --- .-- ... / .- .-. . / . ...- . -. > .-.-.- / .. - / .- -.. -.. .-. . ... ... . ... / -. --- / -- --- .-. . > --..-- / .. - / ... .... .- -.. --- .-- ... / - .... . / ... - .- --. . > / .- -. -.. / .-.. . .- .-. -. .. -. --. .-.-.- / .- / .-. . --. ..- > .-.. .- .-. / .- .-. .-. .- -. --. . -- . -. - --..-- / - .... . / ... . > ...- . .-. . ... - 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... / - .... .- -. / .... > .- ...- . / . ...- . .-. / -... . . -. / -. . -.-. . ... ... .- .-. -.-- > --..-- / ... .... .. -. . / .. -. / - .... . / -.. .- .-. -.- -. . ... > ... / -. . -.-. . ... ... .- .-. .. .-.. -.-- .-.-.- / .- -.-. - ..- .- > .-.. .-.. -.-- / -. --- - / .- -.-. .... .. -. --. --..-- / .- -.-. - ..- > .- .-.. .-.. -.-- / -. --- - / .- -.-. .... .. -. --. --..-- / .- / ... > - ..- -... -... --- .-. -. / -... .-.. --- --- -- / .. ... / ... --- / > .- .-. - .. ..-. .. -.-. .. .- .-.. / .- -. -.. / . ...- . -. / -- --- > .-. . / - .... .- -. / - .... .- - --..-- / .. - / .. ... / .- / ... > .--. . -.-. - .- -.-. .-.. . --..-- / .. - / .. ... / .- / -... .. -. > -.. .. -. --. / .- -.-. -.-. .. -.. . -. - --..-- / .. - / .. ... / .- > -. .. -- --- ... .. - -.-- / .- -. -.. / .- -.-. -.-. . -. - ..- .- - .. > --- -. .-.-.- / .. ..-. / - .... . / -.-. .... .- -. -.-. . / - --- / > -.. .. .-. - -.-- / -.. .. -- .. -. .. ... .... .. -. --. / .. ... / -. . > -.-. . ... ... .- .-. -.-- --..-- / .. ..-. / .. - / .. ... / .-- .... > -.-- / .. ... / - .... . .-. . / -. --- / -.-. --- -- .--. .-.. . -..- > .. --- -. --..-- / .-- .... -.-- / .. ... / - .... . .-. . / -. --- / > .-. ..- -... -... .. -. --. --..-- / .-- .... -.-- / .. ... / - .... . > .-. . / -. --- / ... .--. . -.-. .. .- .-.. / .--. .-. --- - . -.-. - .. by patrick herron ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 00:26:27 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: Re: Perelman's interview MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i hope this adds something useful to your discussion which i have been following and trying my best to understand - i don't have the same level of erudtion as many of you do - so i'm taking a bit of a risk here - what i am contributing is something lewis lacook wrote about my own writing - i sound like a schmuck promoting myself don't i - but i swear this is only a tiny tiny tiny part of it - i really think what lewis wrote is pertinent - so i am contributing it ______________________________ NOTES FOR/ON AUGUST HIGHLAND 1) Multiplicity: a political concept: democracy/socialism: out of one, many: out of many, one. 2) Highland's work here may on one level be a parody of the entire concept of the "art movement;" inasmuch as the postmodern has been characterized as "the end of movements" and an art era beyond manifestos; Highland, in a bold conceptual move, has birthed an art movement, complete with varied practitioners, from just himself. 3)It is also primarily an internet art, using the network as a means of distribution. In its practice, it embodies the network; because Highland takes on for each work a different persona (though some workers in the movement are developing full bodies of work), he is populating each node in the network of his movement with an avatar. This is in contrast to Alan Sondheim's work, which operates for the most part with a fixed set of agents (Nikuko, Julu, Alan, Azure). 4) What we experience as readers of August Highland's texts is a layering of pastiche upon pastiche, collage on collage, network on network. The work is dense, disjunctive, appropriating (it seems) lines from technical manuals and dimestore thrillers; its what pulp would look like if someone dropped the genre and it shattered on impact (and if a book on network protocol were also already shattered there on the floor, mingling with the freshly fragmented pulp). This, coupled with the avatar-play and its mode of dissemination lends the work a rich veneer of polyphony. Think Schoenberg re-incarnated as DJ Spooky; serialism as a mode of cut- up. 5) Such play is deadly serious in its politics. As Language Poetry challenged traditional, "transparent" writing, rendering the sign opaque, Highland's movement renders authorship opaque as well. What if we found out that "Ron Silliman" was a piece of software? Would it change the work and our relationship to the work as readers? 6) But why challenge authorship in this way? Why produce texts like this at all? Why fabricate an art movement? One of the things I find most distressing about the world of twenty-first century poetics is this: one has favorite poets, not favorite poems. This persists even in the world of experimental poetics, where ego is routinely challenged, and the whole idea of subjectivity often slips under the microscope for re-examination (and, in finer moments, re-arrangement). Thinking such as this narrows down poetry considerably; it makes the poetry "scene" all too often just a smaller version of mainstream publishing, with its own small-scale Stephen Kings and John Grishams. But why should this matter to the READER of experimental poetics? Well, for one thing, it turns this "scene" into exactly what it was created in the beginning to counteract: a market. Literature once again becomes a commodity; its value is assigned to it by author-name, rather than quality of work. There are a plethora of respectable experimental literary journals out there that publish by invitation only; there's an even larger number that "accept submissions," but in reality only accept work that has proven market value. How can one justify this, in a mode of work that in theory practices openness and experimentation? 7) This is why Highland's work is important. It frustrates this completely; by playing at the author-value level, it's impossible for those interested more in experimental poetry's market value to grasp it. Will Teddy Warburg ever appear in the much-esteemed (and excellent, as far as quality, but closed, as far as politics) Jacket? Will Conjunctions ever publish work by Teddy? It's doubtful, as such journals seem more concerned with perpetuating one particular historical period in modern poetics rather than furthering the field. So August's work flies in the face of such thinking. Its politics are utopian: the constructedness of its texts is a remnant of the old punk rock mentality, the idea that "anyone can do it, you should too." This work says: start your own movement. And many will heed that call. _________________________________________ cheers, augie www.litob.com www.voice-of-the-village.com www.amazon-salon.com www.atlantic-ploughshares.com www.thebookburningdepartment.com www.thebrainjuicepress.com www.antigenreelitecorps.com www.inkbombdisposalunit.com www.post-mortem-telepathic-society.com www.pornalisa.com www.digital-media-generation.com www.newliteraryunderground.com www.textmodificationstudio.com www.advancedliterarysciences.com www.cultureanimal.com www.muse-apprentice-guild.com www.literaturebuzz.com www.bookcrazed.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Rathmann" To: Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 1:04 PM Subject: Re: Perelman's interview > The Dewey quotation (thanks Michael) seems, to me, an expression of sentimentality, not thought. If the democratic world-view is one which perceives universal "uncertainty and contingency," then why is Dewey so confident in the power of men to shape history, or in the legitimacy of their motives to do so? Robert Corbett mentions Nietzsche: think what he would have made of Dewey's red, white, and blue rhetoric. > > I think Shakespeare is a totalizing poet in the sense that he achieves a complete effect, and that, having read him, one retains a certain vision of the world _as a whole_. The world as a whole (not merely some part of it) looks different afterward. Completeness, comprehensiveness: I think that desiring these things is actually close to wanting to be, as Robert says, "overwhelmed" by art -- only better, because the effects persist and may be reflected on. > > The premise of so much critical theorizing about literature is that artistic conventions carry political significance. In fact, this significance only exists insofar as it is asserted by the interested parties. "Let me tell you now about the democratic urge in my poetry..." When writers adopt this vaguely ad hominem, self-justifying line of argument, it should put readers on the alert. > > Which poet was it who said, when asked about his political views, that he votes in elections just like everybody else? I think of that as a slightly dumb but nicely crap-free response to these questions. > > Andy > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.393 / Virus Database: 223 - Release Date: 10/1/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 00:57:57 -0700 Reply-To: Lanny Quarles Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lanny Quarles Subject: ba]it]y]lo/i-e.m.-erg(e) Comments: To: Rkosti@aol.com, raltemus@earthlink.net, meta@null.net, Matt Samet , Mark Bodhidharma Smith , Jim Leftwich , jbberry@hiwaay.net, iarguell@hotmail.com, ficus@citynet.net, Eggvert8@aol.com, edx , "chris@trnsnd" , list@rhizome.org, WRYTING-L@listserv.utoronto.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ba]it]y]lo/i-e.m.-erg(e) http://www.hevanet.com/solipsis/desktopcollage/baityloi2.jpg ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 23:02:47 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: Amiri Baraka in the NY Times Report from NZ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Laurence I love you too. (Joke). The post I sent started out as another "blast" then I decided to pretend to be mad as I (well maybe we (I only?)) are all a bit mad. (Thinkng that the CIA are probably "listening in" but then I thought ...what the hell...) But replying in general. My original post re Baraka was inspired or caused so to speak by my reading the NY Times which I get on line. Now I was basing my support of Baraka In NO WAY on any anti - semitism and I am not anti semitic and I had heard that rumour re the Israelis a long time ago and have never verified it, I must say I am quite skeptical of it (I'm skeptical of everything)): however it did make me think that certain groups in Israel may have been involved in the S11 plot but that S11 was organised "frrom the inside" is at the moment only one possibility. One I'm inclined toward: at least provisionally... I'm not into the Protocols of Zion and all that slime: I have struggled for years against incorrect racialist views. My ex wife was part Samoan and I used to face racial and psychological torment (not directed at me) by ignorant New Zealanders that I worked closely with... who were very often racist (much of the NZ tradesmen class if you like, and the "lumpen proletariat", are rabidly racist: that's another myth that needs exposing: far from being "a lovely country" New Zealand is one of the most racist and corrupt and violent countries in the world with a large percentage of poor people and homeless and neglected old people and the mentally ill are greatly neglected:and an increasingly low standard of living): and there is a big number of racist crackpots from anti black to to anti Asian to anti Jewish here... What I liked about what I could "see" of Baraka was his ability to say " well I'll raise hell..." and I think that the poem only says - rhetorically..."Who did this?" (I havent read the poem I dont know where it is I'm going by what Patrick says of it). Why was this done?" Now what I cant understand is why in the US and elsewhere you are folding to terror inside your own country that says :" You are unpatriotic if you speak out or question the anti-terrorist campaign or question the actions of the Iaraeli military". My desire to see Israel brought to account and or obliterated (decommissioned if you like) if it continues on its present course was changed somehow into I want to obliterate or whatever all Israelis (no matter what they do): now their was a big conditional there. And I'm not saying eg that Saddam Hussein is a "good guy" (or even Arafat) ...he's not as terrible as he is portayed but he is an ant communist dictator (albeit he did have a (relatively) prosperous regime/situation before the sanctions and people were doing quite well in Iraq (true personal freedoms are curtailed and I met an Iraqi recently (who was a communist -apparently they had a very large and strong communist party in Iraq) but he had to flee Iraq as did his family who were either communists or liberals) now also not everything that the Palestinians do is good and if the UN could step into the arena there and put the lid on both parties (keeping the US and Britain etc at bay) in the current conflict then there is hope....Israel...who are colonisers as Hilton says...but in the absence of that happenning I have to back the Palestinians in whatever actions they take in their self defence intheir freedom fighting and in their heroic suicide bombers. I say IN THE ABSENCE OF a negotiated agreement for permanent peace.... I know there are also some 'bad" eggs who are - stupidly - anti -Jewish. I am opposed to them. I also oppose anyone using religion as a cause of war. Holy Wars are stupid from either the West or the East. (I personally dont like organised religion for what its worth but believe people have a right to believe what they want). If Baraka is still anti-semitic I will have nothing to do with him: I have no time for anti semites or racists (I'm not talking about some rhetoric or name calling...some of that is harmless: ) but consistent brooding over "conspricacies such as the Protocols of Zion -which was a fake document is terrible. I have actually even worked once with a Nazi (in about 1970 in a wool store) and also a racist Afrikaaner (fibre glass factory) and I know a Nazi (well he;'s as good as but I think he is more fascinated with all the Nazi paraphernalia: hes marrried to a Maori woman who doesnt know what he talks about!! In fact when he raves about Jews I just ignore him...once we all contradicted him and he shut up...he's really probably harmless) Also we a friend and I knwo a guy who wnats to nuke all the Arabs! and so on....stupid, ignorant people whoi belive violence etc is a solution: peopel impreessed by power as many were by Hitler who was a scum and a pathetic piece of human ordure.... If he( Barake)'s using rhetoric to ask questions and "dog" at the basis of capitalism and Bush and so on I support him. But Nick and Alan: I am not in avour of violence I see it always as only a last resort and I see the Palestinians as desperate; I can understand also that the Israelis are frightened. I can also understand how Iisrael came to be what it is; there IS a certain logic to having a strong military and a "homeland" unfortunately the Israelis did not go about things diplomatically...but I can see the attraction (especially give the way that Jewish people have been treated (terribly) by Christian and other countries...but I'd ike to discuss my thinking on Zionism another time. I got a bit "short" with Harry Nudel and that was wrong of me...i just got annoyed: but lets say I'll agree to disagree with him...and Nick and Alan I didn't want to hurt people who are of Jewish parentage or culture.... But I want to clear this up: I'm not a neo Nazi and ...when I said "pay no attention" ... I think I was realising that I was actually (in part) attention-getting...but I'm no Baraka: I couldnt sleep at night with kind of attention he gets. I hate that sort of publicity he gets, I mean for myself...good or bad: he might be JC :I dont know or whatever but my point initially is(was) still, the same and started with my urging that he not resign (providing he is not actually an anti-semite, in that case I can see why people would not want him) and my attack on Israel is stet: GIVEN the status quo. (Albeit things change rapidly in politics and else)... Ultimately though I want tose an end to all wars and the disarming of all nations and a truly prosperous world: that is the solution to conflict...NOT a utopia, but a greater and more generous and more egalitarian world. Richard Taylor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lawrence Upton" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 9:14 PM Subject: Re: Amiri Baraka in the NY Times Report from NZ > No worries > > L > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "richard.tylr" > To: > Sent: 01 October 2002 03:15 > Subject: Re: Amiri Baraka in the NY Times Report from NZ > > > | PLEASE DISREGARD EVERYTHING I SAY. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 23:24:54 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: re Perleman's interview MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I cant get onto the interview . I can get to the E Poetry Site and i can = see Monsieur Ron S there looking very complex and very much the computer = exec ! But: o me miserum! O tempores! The interview is a blank page! I know I maybe non persona grata (!) but Ididnt think the plot went that = far...(joke of course)..But can I be helped? Can someone give me a link = to the interview that works? Richard Taylor. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 05:40:04 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: THE SIEGE Comments: cc: "arc.hive" <_arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au>, cupcake kaleidoscope , Renee , rhizome , wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii for Renee After the fashion of waking lately, up from walks and stoops of paving in scale, we separate at flinch of alarm, rolling over our own sides of bed, mostly still sleeping, but still sleeping repetitively. I want to tell you how dreams are recursive; they function in spools on the end of the night and wrap whole tones in petulant emulsion, a wash of green grapes over us as we stone what's chasing through those haunted houses we've left already, and shower on clean socks. Mine are parental by default; the teeth familiar, the breath teeming with pits; no arrival in juicy green flesh but a withering of inwardness, where protection means getting away and being alone, and you play at my edges like a jezebel of seizure. You ply me with lip readings of the anti-canon, smooth me into jets of worthy warm gush, though I resist in my own sustenance, my own cessation of moving through moons frail as a mammoth, and sure, I'll eat my vegetables for you. The siege, begun in bedlam, while fists sifted through kindergarten and the old banishment routine, mumbles over momentous ambiance like a beat just itching to make it to bed with you again. ===== http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html meditation, net art, poeisis: blog http://lewislacook.blogspot.com/ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 08:25:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Tracy S. Ruggles" Subject: Re: plagiarism is so easy... 3 Sonnets Comments: To: patrick@proximate.org In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" ./plagiarize 14 40 '/1\n 2\n.2\n-3\n--1' -.. --/.---/-//./-- .---- .-/--/./----- / .--/----/----..- . - -/.- ------ ..--/ / ---- -.-- - .-. - -- - ---.-- -- .----/-- //- ...-.----//.-././ - /--. .. ----.--- ..-// ./-/ .-/.- /--.----/ -- //.-/----.-- ---/ -. ----.-.--. /--- -.----------. -----. .-- --. -.--/. / --- .--/--./-. ---------/ -- - -.- --.-- --- ------//. /--..---. .-- /- ./-----.-- .---...-- -- . .--.--.--- -------. ---..------ .--.-- --/.-.-- ---- -/ ---..-- .-- -----. -/./ ..-----////.. --./ .-- --- /-. --..---- ---. -- -----..--/ .--/ . -/.-.----.-..-----/- .---/-.-.-.--.- -- . ./../- -.--.. ./ ---- ---- .-- ------------/ '/1\n 6\n.8\n-2\n--1\n|1' |. |-- ./. -.| -- . ... |-. -| ---./ - --. .... -- -- ..-. - -- /| . . /.. |.. ...../ .-- ..|/-..-.../ . .. / /- / | . . - ..|. . . . -.||/./. -.--- .-- . ..-/-. /.-/. /-. .- - ..-/ .. .-././- .--.. .|.| ... -- ---. /- ... |. ./ ....--- .. .. -/ .. ---- - /--|---.. -/ -.|./ -../ .--. . . .| ./...|-. --.--- --. . . .. .-..--|/ -..|. -..-. .. .|. -../.--.- -| /. ....-- / .. -.. /.. .-.-.-- . |. ./. /..| ... |||. |. |... .|-- / -.--....---... ./ /- ... ../ .. . - . .--.. ......|. . /. -. | --.--.. . . -. ... - |- . . /.. . . --.--..|..- -- '/1\n 9\n.3\n,2\n-1\n\\1' /. . -.- -, , . . - .., ... ,., ...-/ . , . .,, -. /\ ,- ,- . .., , \ -, -, , . .. \ , .,,, , .-- . . , .. /, ,\ \ \ . , \, -, . \--,, / ,,.. \- \.//. .. ,..- /.. - ,/ , . - \ , -.. , .. \-, , ,. / ,- \. . . / ../, .. /-. ., . \ , , / . , . . . --/, ,/ /., - . .. . \\., -. ,- ,. ,. , -, . - -/\ / .,\.. \ . - \. ,, ,. - / . , \ ,\, . , \. \ . , ,,/, \ , . .. , , ../ ., /. .\\-, . , \ \- , , \-.,\\ --Tracy > > .- / .-- .. -.. --- .-- / .. -. / .- / .-- .. ... . / ...- . .. .-.. >/ >> .- -. -.. / -- --- .-. . / --. .- .-. -- . -. - ... / ... .... --- .-- >> ... / - .... .- - / ... .... .- -.. --- .-- ... / .- .-. . / . ...- >. -. >> .-.-.- / .. - 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/ .- .-.. >.-.. >> / - .... .- - / .. ... / .--. .-. .- -.-. - .. -.-. . -.. / .- -. -.. >/ >> -- --- .-. . / . .- ... .. .-.. -.-- / -- ..- -.-. .... / -- --- .-. . >/ >> . .- ... .. .-.. -.-- / --- .-. -.. .. -. .- .-. .. .-.. -.-- .-.-.- / >> .--. .. -.-. -.- / .- / -... .- .-. -. --..-- / .- / .-- .... --- .-.. >.. >> / -... .- .-. -. --..-- / .- -. -.. / -... . -. -.. / -- --- .-. . / >> ... .-.. . -. -.. . .-. / .- -.-. -.-. . -. - ... / - .... .- -. / .... >> .- ...- . / . ...- . .-. / -... . . -. / -. . -.-. . ... ... .- >.-. -.-- >> --..-- / ... .... .. -. . / .. -. / - .... . / -.. .- .-. -.- -. . ... >> ... / -. . -.-. . ... ... .- .-. .. .-.. -.-- .-.-.- / .- -.-. - ..- .- >> .-.. .-.. -.-- / -. --- - / .- -.-. .... .. -. --. --..-- / .- -.-. - >..- >> .- .-.. .-.. -.-- / -. --- - / .- -.-. .... .. -. --. --..-- / .- / >... >> - ..- -... -... --- .-. -. / -... .-.. --- --- -- / .. ... / ... --- / >> .- .-. - .. ..-. .. -.-. .. .- .-.. / .- -. -.. / . ...- . -. / -- --- >> .-. . / - .... .- -. / - .... .- - --..-- / .. - / .. ... / .- / ... >> .--. . -.-. - .- -.-. .-.. . --..-- / .. - / .. ... / .- / -... .. -. >> -.. .. -. --. / .- -.-. -.-. .. -.. . -. - --..-- / .. - / .. ... / .- >> -. .. -- --- ... .. - -.-- / .- -. -.. / .- -.-. -.-. . -. - ..- .- - .. >> --- -. .-.-.- / .. ..-. / - .... . / -.-. .... .- -. -.-. . / - --- / >> -.. .. .-. - -.-- / -.. .. -- .. -. .. ... .... .. -. --. / .. ... / -. >.. >> -.-. . ... ... .- .-. -.-- --..-- / .. ..-. / .. - / .. ... / .-- .... >> -.-- / .. ... / - .... . .-. . / -. --- / -.-. --- -- .--. .-.. . -..- >> .. --- -. --..-- / .-- .... -.-- / .. ... / - .... . .-. . / -. --- / >> .-. ..- -... -... .. -. --. --..-- / .-- .... -.-- / .. ... / - .... . >> .-. . / -. --- / ... .--. . -.-. .. .- .-.. / .--. .-. --- - . -.-. - >.. > >by patrick herron ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 06:39:55 -0700 Reply-To: cstroffo@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino Subject: Re: Perelman's interview; Pound's Shakes... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Andy--- Thanks for responding to the Shakespeare question. I won't get too deep here at present but that first sentence to me sounds like you got it straight out of Pound (probably ABC of Reading---it's been years....), and it also seems tautological. The desire to be "overwhelmed," by art, however, "only better, " as you say, makes more sense to me. But it'd be great if you'd elaborate on what, for you, some of those specific "effects" might be that you reflect on when reading such. Just curious... As for your second point, of course Shakespeare, who never gave interviews about his plays, or wrote any "ars poetica" statements that were not themselves given to a "character" (or choral figure, like the "armed prologue" in Troilus and Cressida) in a play, or a "speaker" in a sonnet, and because there have not even been letters or journals by him that have been found, would avoid these charges ("did Shakespeare purposely try to avoid that?" is a question some have asked) Yet, certain characters, certain speeches, in Shakespeare, do make such claims as well--they're framed in such a way that it's considered "critically irresponsible" to ascribe such statements to "Shakespeare himself." Sure, they may get lost in the "complete effect" of the work...and to argue about Shakespeare's political or even ethical intention(s), though interesting, often seems besides the point, since the texts seem to be designed largely to be read more than one way.... But most other writers do offer, in one way or another, prose statements or "readings" of their own work, and as you rightly surmise (if I'm reading you correctly), such readings often tend to limit the possibilities of the poem or work in question. I think I agree with you that, yes, we should be war of such statements if taken as the singular truth about the work--"Hi, I'm democratic, because..." or whatever.... I might be wrong but I don't think Perelman either would want his poetry reduced to that statement. But I also think that such statements are not necessarily absolutely useless, but that they may be put in dialogue with the poems (as well as the statements of other critics on the poems) and that this doesn't have to reduce the poem to the prose statement. Rather, it may be another way of calling attention to the way a person reads their own poems (or, for that matter, the way a poem can read the person who wrote it), and not merely serve a self-justifying publicity function.... At times at least (though we probably still disagree over which times and/or which poems allow that), and still think "totalizing" is not necessarily incompatible with "democratic" whether or not you want to hold either of those terms as values...) C Andrew Rathmann wrote: > I think Shakespeare is a totalizing poet in the sense that he achieves a complete effect, and that, having read him, one retains a certain vision of the world _as a whole_. The world as a whole (not merely some part of it) looks different afterward. Completeness, comprehensiveness: I think that desiring these things is actually close to wanting to be, as Robert says, "overwhelmed" by art -- only better, because the effects persist and may be reflected on. > > The premise of so much critical theorizing about literature is that artistic conventions carry political significance. In fact, this significance only exists insofar as it is asserted by the interested parties. "Let me tell you now about the democratic urge in my poetry..." When writers adopt this vaguely ad hominem, self-justifying line of argument, it should put readers on the alert. > > Which poet was it who said, when asked about his political views, that he votes in elections just like everybody else? I think of that as a slightly dumb but nicely crap-free response to these questions. > > Andy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 06:42:54 -0700 Reply-To: cstroffo@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino Subject: Re: plagiarism is so easy... 3 Sonnets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On behalf of the estate of nikuku i declare thee SUED! "Tracy S. Ruggles" wrote: > ./plagiarize 14 40 > > '/1\n 2\n.2\n-3\n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n 6\n.8\n-2\n--1\n|1' > > |. |-- ./. -.| -- . ... |-. -| ---./ > - --. .... -- -- ..-. - -- /| . . /.. > |.. ...../ .-- ..|/-..-.../ . .. / /- / > > | . . - ..|. . . . -.||/./. -.--- .-- . > ..-/-. /.-/. /-. .- - ..-/ .. > .-././- .--.. .|.| ... -- ---. /- ... |. > ./ ....--- .. .. -/ .. ---- - /--|---.. > -/ -.|./ -../ .--. . . .| ./...|-. > --.--- --. . . .. .-..--|/ -..|. -..-. .. > .|. -../.--.- -| /. ....-- / .. -.. /.. > > .-.-.-- . |. ./. /..| ... |||. |. |... > .|-- / -.--....---... ./ /- ... ../ .. . > - . .--.. ......|. . /. -. | --.--.. . . > -. ... - |- . . /.. . . --.--..|..- -- > > '/1\n 9\n.3\n,2\n-1\n\\1' > > /. . -.- -, , . . - .., ... ,., > ...-/ . , . .,, -. /\ ,- ,- . .., > , \ -, -, , . .. \ , .,,, , > > .-- . . , .. /, ,\ \ \ . , \, > -, . \--,, / ,,.. \- > \.//. .. ,..- /.. - ,/ , . - > \ , -.. , .. \-, , ,. / ,- > \. . . / ../, .. /-. ., . \ , > , / . , . . . --/, ,/ /., - . .. > . \\., -. ,- ,. ,. , -, . - -/\ / > .,\.. \ . - \. ,, ,. - > > / . , \ ,\, . , \. \ . , ,,/, > \ , . .. , , ../ ., /. .\\-, > . , \ \- , , \-.,\\ > > --Tracy > > > > .- / .-- .. -.. --- .-- / .. -. / .- / .-- .. ... . / ...- . .. .-.. > >/ > >> .- -. -.. / -- --- .-. . / --. .- .-. -- . -. - ... / ... .... --- .-- > >> ... / - .... .- - / ... .... .- -.. --- .-- ... / .- .-. . / . ...- > >. -. > >> .-.-.- / .. - / .- -.. -.. .-. . ... ... . ... / -. --- / -- --- .-. . > >> --..-- / .. - / ... .... .- -.. --- .-- ... / - .... . / ... - .- --. > >.. > >> / .- -. -.. / .-.. . .- .-. -. .. -. --. .-.-.- / .- / .-. . --. ..- > >> .-.. .- .-. / .- .-. .-. .- -. --. . -- . -. - --..-- / - .... . / ... > >.. > >> ...- . .-. . ... - / .- -. -.. / - .... . / -- --- ... - / .--. .-. . > >> ... . .-. ...- . -.. / .. ... / - .... .- - / .-- .... .. -.-. .... / > >> .... .- ... / - .... . / .- .-. .-. .- -. --. . -- . -. - / -. --- - / > >> -- --- .-. . / - .... .- -. / .- .-.. .-- .- -.-- ... / .- ..- - > >.... --- > >> .-. .. ... . -.. .-.-.- / .- / ... ..- .. - .- -... .-.. . / . ... - .- > >> -... .-.. .. ... .... -- . -. - --..-- / .-- . .-.. .-.. / .... --- ..- > >> ... . -.. --..-- / .--. .-. .- -.-. - .. -.-. .- .-.. --..-- / .--. .- - > >> .. . -. - / .- -. -.. / ... - .- .-. .. -. --. --..-- / .- / ... ..- > >.. > >> - .- -... .-.. . / -... . -.. -.. .. -. --. --..-- / ...- . .-. -.-- / > >> ... ..- .. - 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/ -.-. . .-. - .- .. -. .-.. -.-- / .... .- ... / - .... . / ... > >.- > >> -- . / - .-. . .- - --..-- / .- -. -.. / .- / ... . .- - / .- .-.. > >.-.. > >> / - .... .- - / .. ... / .--. .-. .- -.-. - .. -.-. . -.. / .- -. -.. > >/ > >> -- --- .-. . / . .- ... .. .-.. -.-- / -- ..- -.-. .... / -- --- .-. . > >/ > >> . .- ... .. .-.. -.-- / --- .-. -.. .. -. .- .-. .. .-.. -.-- .-.-.- / > >> .--. .. -.-. -.- / .- / -... .- .-. -. --..-- / .- / .-- .... --- .-.. > >.. > >> / -... .- .-. -. --..-- / .- -. -.. / -... . -. -.. / -- --- .-. . / > >> ... .-.. . -. -.. . .-. / .- -.-. -.-. . -. - ... / - .... .- -. / .... > >> .- ...- . / . ...- . .-. / -... . . -. / -. . -.-. . ... ... .- > >.-. -.-- > >> --..-- / ... .... .. -. . / .. -. / - .... . / -.. .- .-. -.- -. . ... > >> ... / -. . -.-. . ... ... .- .-. .. .-.. -.-- .-.-.- / .- -.-. - ..- .- > >> .-.. .-.. -.-- / -. --- - / .- -.-. .... .. -. --. --..-- / .- -.-. - > >..- > >> .- .-.. .-.. -.-- / -. --- - / .- -.-. .... .. -. --. --..-- / .- / > >... > >> - ..- -... -... --- .-. -. / -... .-.. --- --- -- / .. ... / ... --- / > >> .- .-. - .. ..-. .. -.-. .. .- .-.. / .- -. -.. / . ...- . -. / -- --- > >> .-. . / - .... .- -. / - .... .- - --..-- / .. - / .. ... / .- / ... > >> .--. . -.-. - .- -.-. .-.. . --..-- / .. - / .. ... / .- / -... .. -. > >> -.. .. -. --. / .- -.-. -.-. .. -.. . -. - --..-- / .. - / .. ... / .- > >> -. .. -- --- ... .. - -.-- / .- -. -.. / .- -.-. -.-. . -. - ..- .- - .. > >> --- -. .-.-.- / .. ..-. / - .... . / -.-. .... .- -. -.-. . / - --- / > >> -.. .. .-. - -.-- / -.. .. -- .. -. .. ... .... .. -. --. / .. ... / -. > >.. > >> -.-. . ... ... .- .-. -.-- --..-- / .. ..-. / .. - / .. ... / .-- .... > >> -.-- / .. ... / - .... . .-. . / -. --- / -.-. --- -- .--. .-.. . -..- > >> .. --- -. --..-- / .-- .... -.-- / .. ... / - .... . .-. . / -. --- / > >> .-. ..- -... -... .. -. --. --..-- / .-- .... -.-- / .. ... / - .... . > >> .-. . / -. --- / ... .--. . -.-. .. .- .-.. / .--. .-. --- - . -.-. - > >.. > > > >by patrick herron ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 08:45:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: plagiarism is so easy... 3 Sonnets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit machine© &/or machineexpanded enamoured ©enamoured virtuous machineexpanded &/or enamoured ©machine &/or machine© &/or machineexpanded enamoured surface machine &/or surface© machine enamoured machine©enamoured &/or machine© ©machine ©enamoured &/or expanded virtuous machine©machine machine &/or expandedmachine machine© machine©machine expanded machine ©machine © surface &/or surface document virtuous machineexpanded surface &/or © document machine© © &/or surface document machine© ©enamoured virtuous machineexpanded surface &/or machine© machine©machine machine &/or machine surface© machine ©machine machine©machine©machine© &/or enamoured © &/or machine© ©enamoured ©enamoured machine©machine machine surface surface machine surface &/or ©machine virtuous &/or expanded virtuous machine©machine machine expandedenamouredexpanded &/or enamoured © &/or surface document machine© ©enamoured virtuous machineexpanded surface &/or © document machine &/or surface © machine© expandedmachine machine &/or machine© ©machine ©enamoured &/or machine©enamoured machine machine© machine©machine ©machine enamoured ©machine expandedmachine machine©machine©machine© &/or machine© &/or machine©machine machine expandedmachine enamoured© machine©enamoured machine© machine©machine &/or machine© machine©machine machine©machine machine© ©machine expandedmachine machine expanded machine ©machine © expandedenamouredexpanded &/or © document machine &/or surface machine surface© machine machine©machine machine surface © &/or machine© ©machine ©enamoured &/or © document machine &/or expanded virtuous surface © &/or -- mIEKAL aND dtv@mwt.net Dreamtime Village http://www.dreamtimevillage.org Joglars Crossmedia Broadcast http://cla.umn.edu/joglars ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 09:33:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: Re: Hello and Comedy MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Gabriel and Jeffrey, (and others before that), Your input is extremely helpful. I will print these emails & take them to the library. Sometimes I wonder what this list is for, and sometimes it's obvious. Thanks greatly, Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 10:23:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: Pauline et Virginie Cardinal (3 Stanza Monte) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Morning in the country of the disappointed, part of my story with his mate, from which all might not issue, admiration my dearest light, a new sight to me, how could I enter into misfortune? hasten my daily fatality, post-road wickedness uniform voyage, charnel-house mischief, loveliness in a few words amusements for an instant sway over me, solitary price a murderess the moon can disturb me, atrocious scene, childless sensations minutely ancient, overcome by decipherments, completion palpitated milk and fire, suffocated with part of my story harmless irretrievables, the prospect of purpose indispensable Medium, for the moralists, is fictional, generalized counterpart grand fusion alluded to the above, honor a temporary phase stagnant retrospection, inattentive utility dividing such a bliss, or in both, coalescence of exclamations do little harm bare interinanimation coming between paroemiographers standpoint isolated the pivot, successive particularization our home has its overtones, ourselves an undertone exchange an end for an event, withdrawal incitement subordinated reformation unstamped indescribables cruelty enchanted by my travels, her own mind my benefactor At any rate, ailments seem very like business, questions bashful unlucky day, to our comfort much expectation, moderation side drawn to admit easy consolation, a more lasting proposal kept eight letters: the folds as certain, the main suspect remained standing, bird on a wire frees telecommunications public pretense provided with ailments, rigidly productive handiwork survives adjustment, more often imply habitation allegiance the most recent benefit, tourist parables invention stages universality, versatile definition precedes entry circumstances serve any cause, the unfeasible by way of addendum _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 10:57:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: Virginia the Achromatic Goddess, or Possibly Monochromatic Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed stand up pleasing from the earth though coarse, nine times out of ten the type of olive branch in his beak animal bit O so unfit the ball fragment was seen luxurious gather out of the building readiest silver vulgar ringer the perfect hue so soon island leaves are the homes of heaven bask on flat two colors thickness will stand weather bell piece possibility of earnest unawares, untrue as aelectrae mae kind stand dish consistency far down subdues the fifth vaulting you're V. spatial to me conceived a miraculous mathematics light tracery principles of social order characterless positivism the chief preliminary where there may be a world hour sand hem contrivances bound hand and foot adjoining loss rashness schematizes callousness, my middle way slipped under the door get the word wide awake bulk of the gimmick long road against the windows professional tail life flattered all by himself tell us supermarket fruit excruciates us still don't tell us that the hereditary is easy to restrain _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 12:07:50 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Bruce Andrews & Drew Milne | Segue Series at Bowery Poetry Club Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Come see Bruce Andrews and Drew Milne as Segue officially begins the 2002-2003 reading series in our new location, the Bowery Poetry Club The reading is this Saturday, October 5 (tomorrow), from 4-6 P.M. $4 admission goes to support the readers. Bowery Poetry Club, 308 Bowery, just north of Houston, in New York City. Bruce Andrews' recent books include Lip Service (Coach House, 2001), a phonetic Langpo reworking of Dante's Paradiso through Andrews' distinctive blender-on-fire idiom, and Paradise & Method (Northwestern University Press, 1999), his collected essays. A yet-to-be-titled collection of his political science writing is forthcoming on arras.net. Homepage: http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/andrews/ Drew Milne is the author of several collections of poetry including Sheet Mettle (Alfred David Editions, 1994), The Damage: New and Selected Poems (Salt Books, 2001) and Mars Disarmed (The Figures, 2002). He is the editor of Parataxis: Modernism and Modern Writing, teaches at Cambridge University in the U.K. and is a prolific critic. Homepage: http://drewmilne.tripod.com/ Funding is made possible by the continuing support of the Segue Foundation and the Literature Program of the New York State Council on the Arts. Curators for this reading are Brian Kim Stefans & Gary Sullivan. A PDF version of the calendar, as well as further information about Segue, can be found at: http://www.segue.org/ _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 12:36:21 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: The Poetry Project Subject: Poetry Project Announcements Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Tonight's and next week's events at the Poetry Project. *** FRIDAY OCTOBER 4 [6:00pm and 10:00pm, at the Bowery Poetry Club] AN EVENING OF POETRY AND MUSIC WITH WILL ALEXANDER MONDAY OCTOBER 7 [8:00pm] DODIE BELLAMY AND KEVIN KILLIAN WEDNESDAY OCTOBER 9 [8:00pm] JOHN WIENERS MEMORIAL http://www.poetryproject.com/calendar.html *** FRIDAY OCTOBER 4 [6:00pm and 10:00pm] AN EVENING OF POETRY AND MUSIC WITH WILL ALEXANDER Will Alexander's latest titles are Above the Human Nerve Domain (Pavement Saw Press) and Towards the Primeval Lightning Field. His forthcoming book is entitled Exobiology as Goddess (Manifest Press). He was a recipient of a Whiting Fellowship for Poetry in 2001 and a California Arts Council Fellowship for Poetry in 2002. After his reading at six, Will and musician Alan Semerdjian will perform with Tradewinds! Poets4Life, hosted by Carl Hancock Rux. [Please note that this event will be held at The Bowery Poetry Club, 308 Bowery (between Bleecker and Houston), with a reading at 6:00pm and music performance at 10:00pm] MONDAY OCTOBER 7 [8:00pm] DODIE BELLAMY AND KEVIN KILLIAN Dodie Bellamy has written a novel, The Letters of Mina Harker (Hard Press, 1998), a collection of memoirs, Feminine Hijinx (Hanuman, 1990), and an epistolary collaboration on AIDS with the late Sam D'Allesandro, Real (Talisman House, 1994). Her latest book, Cunt-Ups (Tender Buttons, 2002), a radical feminist revision of the "cut-up" pioneered by William Burroughs and Brion Gysin, received the 2002 Firecracker Alternative Book Award for Poetry. Kevin Killian is a poet, novelist, critic and playwright. He has written a book of poetry, Argento Series (2001), two novels, Shy (1989) and Arctic Summer (1997), and a book of memoirs, Bedrooms Have Windows (1989). His book of stories, Little Men (1996) received the PEN Oakland award for fiction. Killian's new collection, I Cry Like a Baby, is just out from Painted Leaf Books. WEDNESDAY OCTOBER 9 [8:00pm] JOHN WIENERS MEMORIAL John Wieners (1934-2002) influenced three generations of younger poets and was an inspiration to gay poets in particular. His impact on American poetry has been immense. Wieners was also a playwright, editor of the literary magazine Measure, and an active participant in the San Francisco Poetry Renaissance. His volumes of poetry include The Hotel Wentley Poems (1958), Ace of Pentacles (1964), Nerves (1970), Behind the State Capitol (1975) and The Journal of John Wieners: 707 Scott Street (1996). Black Sparrow has published two collections of his poetry and prose, Selected Poems: 1958-84 and Cultural Affairs in Boston: Poetry and Prose, 1956-1985. Readers include Anselm Berrigan, Victor Bockris, Bill Corbett, Robert Creeley, Jim Dunn, Larry Fagin, Raymond Foye, Vincet Katz, Basil King, Gerrit Lansing, Gerard Malanga, Bernadette Mayer, Taylor Mead, Maureen Owen, Simon Pettet, Janine Pommy-Vega, Rene Ricard, Bob Rosenthal, Michael Rumaker, Ed Sanders, Charley Shively and Lewis Warsh. *** Unless otherwise noted, admission to all events is $10, $7 for students and seniors, and $5 for Poetry Project members. Schedule is subject to change. The Poetry Project is located in St. Mark's Church in-the-Bowery at 131 E. 10th Street, on the corner of 2nd Avenue in Manhattan. Trains F, 6, N, R. The Poetry Project is wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. Please call (212) 674-0910 for more information, or e-mail us at poproj@poetryproject.com. *** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 10:42:46 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Larsen Subject: Big Zine Fair 10/12 In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The Bay Area Book Artists' "Book Arts Jam" will feature books, prints, "artist books," zines & multiples of every sort by over 60 artists, including this one. I'll be fucking it up at table #40. This is Saturday, October 12th in the Student Center of Foothill College in Los Altos -- from 280, exit El Monte Rd. and follow the signs. Admission is free, but you are advised to bring 8 quarters to pay for parking. Doors open at 10 and close at 4. See you there LRSN for more info see www.sbawca.org/baba/jam ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 19:06:39 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lakey Teasdale Subject: Vestals & perhaps Virginia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Vestals & perhaps Virginia and the fiction of the truth was medium plain to see the country of the disappointed self, appointed the velvet is black with a red lining the skirt is trousers and the post-ssertS counterpoint and the stresses of the first syllables the childless over come with the beautiful children and the scene was seen. the aqua green. the inattentive inamorata attentively reflective the undertone an overtone to a coat the pockets deep the aurora rara borealis paled in spit and dirty looks. then licked her lips. the pensive slips away no doubt enticed the spliced knots un- done. Oh, she is done. Undone. Minutely overcome enchanted? Mystified, perplexed but neverthelesss attentive. The inattention having faded fast The letters eight, significant, the septenate one- upped like the swan. Deciphered the mischief and reforms. The birds on the wires resembling nothing more than the notes of the fugue. Fugue on again the consolation. The interpretation having passed and been noted. A flexible yearning. Yearns. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 14:32:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mairead Byrne Subject: Re: Hello and Comedy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dear Aaron, It would be wonderful if you would agree to post the whole list. Mairead >>> aaron@BELZ.NET 10/04/02 10:55 AM >>> Gabriel and Jeffrey, (and others before that), Your input is extremely helpful. I will print these emails & take them to the library. Sometimes I wonder what this list is for, and sometimes it's obvious. Thanks greatly, Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 19:32:25 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lakey Teasdale Subject: Never O. No, Virginia Comments: To: "WRYTING-L : Writing and Theory across Disciplines" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Never O. No, Virginia never O. No not coarse and seldom only sometimes ever vulgar. The olive rolls in her mouth the flesh succulent and fragments spoke the balloons, the red the green one inside the other the island no leaves turn colour the two the colour the seen. The scene. And the V, a V the bell rests. The bell chimes at rest. The mathematics traced light the light the mathematics No order. Only social. Principles at ease. And grey, the middle way, but glows. Sways. The hereditary unrestrained strains at the bit. The mare's eyes are blue. Deep blue. And lined with kohl. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 15:58:01 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: 100 Sonnets Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed 1. these aren’t roses are they your eyes taillights it is a relief to not pay the rent and toss uninterrupted in bed 2. resolve to be smoke, sand a left hand or forest, billowing on an old mountain what? a waste you lasted one pack of cigarettes and burned up 3. longer than winter and want illuminated by yellows skeletons holding hands a warning for teenagers 4. conditions of sanctuary: 1. purr of wildness 2. be defanged if confusion is sex I’m a trick noon and night 5. a relief to shiver, be renovated by sunlight or chrome in relentless spin footfalls, the neighbors’ fighting’s a relief, begin again: a red tin rocket’s whistle 6. choose your level of involvement: overrun by the cute, be estranged, endangered as a snowflake in drifts, aimed at the sullen targeted, be friendly fire 7. death is the cure for love YOU NEVER LOVED ME AND I HAVEN’T DIED YET it is raining in the bus 8. remain granite, a stoic stop for tourists and on coins or the victim of a trumpet, a high American squeal older man, crinkle your brow horizonward squint off toward more winter nights 9. can’t it be traced in a window airports of waiting, desirous travelers desiring air and ever aquiver, stunners all 10. sonneteer, you have lost your way egad! a pricker bush turn back 11. the jumpiness of the acids, flowing in what we call rain, sleet, fire, the bends, but no to you, you love and or each day trip upon the same sidewalk crack 12. tumors on the faces of heroes, red wine on collars against all comfort, suddenly you dreamers, wishers, you asked for it 13. muscle your way back in leaving only a comet-trail* * * * * * * * * * * 14. inside the monologue chickens ten deep a suicide note written in bbq sauce you’ve never seen so many feathers 15. wife-and-kid yourself along the cobblestones lie awake and fucked in the backseat, air a mist become the smallest you the imprint of a seatbelt 16. I’d like to sleep with Anne Waldman in moonlight 17. and in stumbling, and in the times we pray, desperate for who-knows- what that doesn’t matter now someone threw up on the stairs it doesn’t hit you right away 18. you have been folded up into a crane you have been here a week, there are 7 scratches from green to red all the while blinking 19. what’s the hardest— frozen stems of cool flowers, swish of city cranes, bobbing with wreckage the Christmas stars are still out, stirring less heat, dumb talk keeps the beat 20. spit the sky out at me the cool drip down my cheek in a week wait for cover venture out to catch a blast of dust from trees 21. and dashed upon silver rocks bespeaking dawn I like the night life, baby quiet as the movie theater’s hushing and also leaving, and leaving 22. what purpose blood or to be filled up call an ambulance! I’m OK, just call one 23. a relief to bubble also to pop back into place after being smushed. rubber duckie, you know— you’re still the one 24. sick of your hands dusty, meet shaky kool spires in spotlite think I’ve missed you and am missing enough action 25. everything is now John Wieners fucking winter night! give back the trees + him 26. with “the rocks” on the side and a look that says “there’s nothing in that drawer…” we are tipped by night ourselves big tippers 27. you will find out the color of your heart the names of lost streets how silver your soul is and needs to be 28. breaks up round midnite every night the narrow asteroid belt of love watch it! 29. I would trade truth for beauty and a player to be named later 30. zambonis of desire clean my ice later let’s make a piñata and fall out write my name across your tits all in caps 31. fake your orgasms across the wire, fake them at your bus stop. traffic is good on the way back and all the stars are out. 32. STOP SHOWING UP IN MY DREAMS AND WHAT WAS WITH THAT HAT? 33. poundage compounded, don’t be misled fallen for a fool no book unread the clouds too can crash and seconds burn all the while we float and also yearn 34. what do the pale billions care for me caught in the switches or a ground ball to the whole – even the poets are lawyers, can be sometimes just in time 35. drive me around in your copcar, kick and punch me on the bridge to Allston, they haven’t decided anything yet, it’s midnight the jury is still out 36. the blink gen. are we and sorry this is the heart and lungs and brains of the matter in tired light, an elbow of a neighborhood suffers 37. I’d also like to sleep with Eileen Myles we wouldn’t have to fool around or nothin’ 38. I want to love you but for conspiracies and faint thunder instead run, catch, kiss in a doorway or crosswalk or sleepwalking it’s cold, let’s drape my straitjacket over yr. shoulders 39. the balance is zero and you are denied denial red wisp of a fire engine headed toward something that’s burning or burnt use envelope for payment please 40. don’t have to run anymore don’t have to pretend we’re in a swordfight but hey, bust the windows with your voice surrender or whisper and tempt us 41. you don’t have to live like a refugee live like a moth, fly toward the brightest thing you can find (i.e. the sun) fill out a damage form remove from inventory and leave a note in my box 42. plenty of us were poor and went mad with yet no bridge from which to bellyflop pardon its appearance purple at night and spoked and if the voices in my head are right—nah, no way 43. if at conception, saved, bobbing between the knees resolve to be a daughter or son, be the heated innuendo of your favorite tune yearn to topple, be not afraid 44. lose notebooks in the spring snow and lose them one drop at a time in vicious circles of light poems won’t endure the flood or your own reading of them, poems pack it in 45. thus unloved and yet unfaithful pigeonholed, tolled, dull as dial tone exorcize your legs and arms and chest the damage done estimates in millions 46. DON’T MOVE AND NO ONE GETS HURT HEY I SAW THAT, SLICK YOU FUCKING MOVED 47. in ribbons, shining on to be read in high schools and who cares if they do crueler than arrows kisses are be proud of the sound, hocus pocus lose your focus 48. to those undead and unborn those dim inbetween you creatures aspin we salute you in February and March even from far away 49. get yrself a husband before too late husband to lover leave your troubles at the carwash 50. we wish for wicked things at the end of tonite feelin down, dirty, and fearing Jesus’ wrath watch for the entrance of love, at its scariest, beware its venomous chompers 51. and across the firmament my one way out hangs, * just like that 52. eureka! when we invented the angels we forgot ourselves throw me your halo and spats let’s step out and never look back 53. remind me later of the edge clone me 1000 times and give me 1000 more of you on reentry: dead air, slow motion 54. c‘mon— snow with us change yourself into a twisting ave. or a door leaning in a lonely alleyway yr. wings are tall and red draw back your bow, etc. 55. I won’t answer the ringing phone in my head IT’S PROBABLY YOU AGAIN YEAH IT’S JUST YOU 56. allow the forest to fall into the sea allow spring, a slippery fella, in kids! drive now to your state capitols and send me a postcard c/o the zoo 57. you might or might not be governor, or a conquering army of monkeys with red fezes BUT IT SURE WOULD BE GREAT IF YOU WERE 58. and so you have a nephew my vocabulary did this to me but what’s your excuse mention it or not, born blue with a tube around his neck 59. she is in my arms in the best poem ever written and she is, and this is it, and fuck! yes! 60. too good to be true or are you? your features, you in smell- o-vision. your future is alive in squirming. true or false? this blue color is copywritten? very true, this blue 61. wait 1000 years, lying along traintracks or tied up in a field. in pink pools of cool light beneath the milky way alone, or with a pal, maybe 62. this is your afterlife, a warped treehouse, frosted altogether and winded. how long will you sit and wait? until you run out of numbers or pages up a corduroy knee take a cab or walk and stay awake if you can 63. 2 roads converged in a wood we smoked joints and took a nap in the shade, among yellow leaves 64. I am trying to imagine what Ron Padgett is doing right now: maybe chopping wood with an old silver hatchet, maybe eating a delicious slice of pizza 65. throw your curveballs, test your slider. their bats are corked but that’s OK, give ‘em fastballs, fastballs, nothing but smoke, it doesn’t count! show them your high heat 66. the cupboard’s bare here and the bills are here and the papergirl, too and Jackson needs braces, the dog also needs braces there’s shopping to be done, but not here tonite for dinner a pillowcase, cigarette filters 67. how to influence: a river of yeses and no’s a whispering campaign: hey, lie in state beneath your eternal flame, set up your velvet ropes, sell tickets 68. you are back where you started: the fish market underlined by cobblestones the sun insists and the girls are wearing sparkles and you are heavy and not unhappy, tugged forward 69. x-rayed for broken bits without a warrant back up against the elevator wall bask in the mirrored gold quietly ascending to the roof 70. lose yourself along self-help and fiction, my sweet love browse through bio and crafts, at your sleepiest a glow of simmering blue if you weren’t born, we’d make you up, and name you 71. and what about me not undefeated or sought and not the only Jim Behrle around I wish I was Crispus Attucks, or among the saved and loved no longer, a plaque on a tree 72. if you had hair, through your hair like cool fingers would you go to the prom with me, if there was a prom? FYI: I can’t stop thinking about you, I THINK IT’S YOU, and also, for some reason, about magnets 73. the revolution has begun but you missed the memo I stole your beret elsewhere wolves are resting, a woman falls for someone, and couples double-park with red and yellow blinkers 74. YOUR BLUES AIN’T LIKE MINE MINE AREN’T BLUE THEY’RE SHIT BROWN 75. caught by surprise overpowered by your looks, lines, everything’s hazel and everything’s about you now hair in ponytails, O good Queen H. 76. at their most addictive the solemn drugs and drug-taking of youth but out in the clear stripped of our secrets we bob like boys in cool water without our drugs, still solemn to the bitter end 77. let’s talk in code for a while: THE BEAVER GIVES A DAMN AND SO DOES THE PRINCESS SHE HAS PRETTY EYES AND SPEAKS HIGHLY OF THE FOX 78. start over, get an assistant and saw her in half, levitate yourself through hoops of flame, you never want to be found, if you could disappear you would, or if you could make them— even better 79. elaborate, the air clear as cellophane in shimmer throw your plastics at the sun, up and poof hold my hand in a movie or in the line at the movies all impurities melt away in the lobby, we push out back into dusk, movie-dark 80. and in return a mean flock of white birds hover. they mean to rush us, but we will be ready. the moon might be full from these stairs. we’ve run out of time. there’s no bench, no wall of ivy along this path. 81. big brother, little brother violate your forms! kick the funny bone! D to the I to the E we all will, but not tonight—get one more for the road and one for when we get there 82. unaware of satellites monitoring our intimacies bargaining for more time or for rain, even at our most even-headed we allow lighthouses to guide us to wreck, legs to overrule minds and arms and night to fall with all its eyes 83. well, tell them about her: curves and moods but maybe later, the stretching red of either daybreak or sundown distracts warm sips of something all the trees are where they should be 84. build me a new city, I will build you a subway miles of track here to there named after some favorites take O’Hara to Cathedral change to Baraka at Stadium, pick up Berrigan and ride Mayer to the Operahouse, in evening awash 85. do it in fever and be done with it just headlights and lampposts and at weekend heartbreaks endure heartbreakers and alphabets all debts are paid in silk 86. judge for yourself the distance to the stars and planets worrying won’t change it, what waits for you while you check your messages is the new sound not a voice but yeah a voice that speaks for the zeros and ones 87. forgive tulips, they know not why they bloom and rot or they do and don’t care what it means for us to watch beautiful for a day or two become a perfect stone, fall for the ocean floor 88. acknowledged. permission to land taken for granted— take me to your leader or to dinner in the next town mobs are being organized, pitchforks paid for 89. on a roll— elevens, sevens wake in alabaster honey or amber awaken and speak your luck won’t slow you down not now, change hands be the dice. snake eyes. bust. 90. pray to elephants and the whales for a new love, better than the last and faithful this time. or don’t and take your chances again in the pool. the water’s fine NO IT’S NOT 91. calling all supermodels submit one poem or in the skyscrapers we have left, leave the power on and then at nine and ten believe again trust that steady pulse of yours 92. seeking relief and a drink for courage, left to fend through the cut-outs escape from skylines, crickets, daylight, soil make sure to have i.d. 93. God is my co-pilot, my pilot is who? lean back and be driven I’d like to be burned and scattered I’d like to be Thurston Moore on tour forgiven for what I’m planning to do 94. I know what you’re thinking I do, I think. being “in the zone” or not esp isn’t easy make cameos across the forehead leave the lines open, in case 95. throughout history, sirens and emergency lights invent new needs to sate along the canals, torches in peaceful lagoons by my compass speed east ‘til morning or north to water: or land, ho 96. give me proof say underwear and oh mama I need to find a place to keep my baby and to get a diamond at last, alternately giggling and sweating I’m the rage of Paris, France 97. finally forgotten, red lines divide cream sheets you can count on sheep each assigned either numeral, symbol or color across the drenched valley fog rises from smokestacks gray as grandfather lips 98. poor devils, they too hate sulfur and what they must do a soul is heavier than it looks, dusty, brittle look to the reader to make sense of it it’s simple leave every purple candle lit 99. listen for the horns, this is where they come in and car alarms, even this far out. your best shot is what got you here and trying. quit again no one is following you home or to the store. live a little. 100. open for business and pleasure who’s left to disgust? feet from floating and drowning remember the backstroke keep your mouth as shut as you can _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 18:49:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: sex-fox in war MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII sex-fox in war ^[[cleanholem^[[cleandirty;radioactivesterilizedH^ [[holem ^[[cleanholem^[[H^[[J^[[cleanhole;holeH ^[[cleanholem^[[clean;holedirtyH^[[holem ^[[cleanholem^[[hole;cleansterilizedH^[[holem ^[[cleanholem^[[hole;holedirtyH^[[holem ^[[cleanholem^[[radioactive;cleansterilizedH^[[hol em:dirty^[[hole;cleansterilizedH^[[holem ^[[cleanholem^[[hole;holeoverflowingH^[[holem ^[[cleanholem^[[hole;holedirtyH^[[holem ^[[cleanholem^[[clean;cleansterilizedH^[[holem::ra dioactivecleanhole^[[hole;holeoverflowingH^[[holem radioactiveradioactiveradioactive^[[radioactive;holedirtyH ^[[cleanholem^[[cleandirty;holeradioactiveH^[[holem radioactiveradioactivehole^[[holehole;holedirtyH ^[[cleanholem^[[holesterilized;holeoverflowingH:^[ [cleanholem^[[cleandirty;radioactivesterilizedH^[[holem ^[[cleanholem^[[H^[[J^[[cleanhole;holeH ^[[cleanholem^[[clean;holedirtyH^[[holem ^[[cleanholem^[[hole;cleansterilizedH^[[holem ^[[cleanholem^[[hole;holedirtyH^[[holem ^[[cleanholem^[[radioactive;cleansterilizedH^[[hol em, with us? Your dirty ^[[cleanholem^[[holehole;holeoverflowingH ^[[holesterilized;radioactiveradioactiveH ^[[cleanholem^[[holehole;radioactiveradioactiveH^[[holem radioactivecleansterilized^[[hole;radioactivecleanH ^[[holesterilized;radioactivecleanH^[[holem is in my uneasy ^[[holehole;radioactivesterilizedH^[[holem radioactiveholeclean^[[cleandirty;holedirtyH ^[[cleanholem^[[holehole;holecleanH ^[[holehole;ra dioactivesterilizedH ^[[cleandirty;holecleanH^[[holem ^[[cleanholem^[[h ole;holedirtyH^[[holem ^[[cleanholem^[[radioactive;cleansterilizedH^[[hol em:dirty^[[hole;cleansterilizedH^[[holem ^[[cleanholem^[[hole;holeoverflowingH^[[holem:^[[c leanholem^[[hole;cleansterilizedH^[[holem:^[[clean holem^[[cleandirty;radioactivesterilizedH^[[holem ^[[cleanholem^[[H^[[J^[[cleanhole;holeH ^[[cleanholem^[[clean;holedirtyH^[[holem :^[[clean dirty;holecleanH^[[holem Ah, my:^[[cleanholem^[[cleandirty;holeradioactiveH^[[holem radioactiveradioactivehole^[[holehole;holedirtyH ^[[cleanholem^[[holesterilized;holeoverflowingH:^[ [cleanholem^[[cleandirty;radioactivesterilizedH^[[holem Would ^[[cleanholem^[[cleandirty;radioactivesteril izedH^[[holem ^[[cleanholem^[[H^[[J^[[cleanhole;holeH ^[[cleanholem^[[clean;holedirtyH^[[holem mind you partying, ^[[cleanholem^[[hole;holedirtyH^[[holem ^[[cleanholem^[[radioactive;cleansterilizedH^[[hol em:dirty^[[hole;cleansterilizedH^[[holem ^[[cleanholem^[[hole;holeoverflowingH^[[holem, wit h us? Your clean uneasy ^[[holehole;radioactivesterilizedH^[[holem radioactiveholeclean^[[cleandirty;holedirtyH ^[[cleanholem^[[holehole;holecleanH ^[[holehole;ra dioactivesterilizedH is in my clean ^[[cleanholem^[[hole;holedirtyH^[[holem ^[[cleanholem^[[clean;cleansterilizedH^[[holem::ra dioactivecleanhole^[[hole;holeoverflowingH^[[holem radioactiveradioactiveradioactive^[[radioactive;holedirtyH === ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 19:41:13 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: Do Yr Homework MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/completetimeline/AAisraeli.html January, 2000: A DEA government document later leaked to the press [DEA report, 6/01] suggests that a large Israeli spy ring starts penetrating the US from at least this time, if not earlier. This ring, which will later become popularly known as the "art student spy ring," is later shown to have strange connections to the events of 9/11. [Insight, 3/11/02] February 6, 2000: India's largest newsweekly reports that it appears a recent Mossad attempt to infiltrate al-Qaeda failed when they were stopped by Indian customs officials on their way to Bangladesh. These 11 men appeared to be from Afghanistan, but had Israeli passports. One expert states, "It is not unlikely for Mossad to recruit 11 Afghans in Iran and grant them Israeli citizenship to penetrate a network such as Bin Laden's. They would begin by infiltrating them into an Islamic radical group in an unlikely place like Bangladesh." [The Week, 2/6/00] If this shows that Mossad was trying to infiltrate al-Qaeda, did they make other attempts that succeeded, and if so, is this how they learned enough to know where to trail al-Qaeda in the US via the "art student spy ring"? April 19, 2000: USA Today states that "Israeli crime groups ... dominate distribution" of Ecstasy. [USA Today, 4/19/00] The DEA also states that most of the Ecstasy sold in the US is "controlled by organized crime figures in Western Europe, Russia and Israel." [UPI, 10/25/01] According to DEA documents, the Israeli "art student" spy ring " has been linked to several ongoing DEA [Ecstasy] investigations in Florida, California, Texas and New York now being closely coordinated by DEA headquarters." [Insight, 3/11/02] In addition to 9/11 connections explored later, was this spy ring meant to obstruct DEA prosecution of Israeli organized crime? March 23, 2001: The Office of National Drug Control Policy issues a National Security Alert describing "apparent attempts by Israeli nationals to learn about government personnel and office layouts." This later comes to light through a leaked Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA) document called "Suspicious Activities Involving Israeli Art Students at DEA Facilities ." A crackdown ensues and by June around 120 Israelis are apprehended. More are apprehended later. [Read the document here: DEA report, 6/01] June, 2001: A 60 page internal memo on the Israeli "art student" spy ring is written by the DEA's Office of Security Programs. [Read the memo here: DEA report, 6/01] The memo is a compilation of dozens of field reports, and was meant only for the eyes of senior officials at the Justice Department (of which the DEA is adjunct), but it is leaked to the press around Dec. 2001. The report connects the spies to efforts to foil investigations into Israeli organized crime activity involving the importation of the drug Ecstasy. The spies also appear to be snooping on top secret military bases. For instance, on April 30, 2001, an Air Force alert was issued from Tinker Air Force Base in Oklahoma City concerning "possible intelligence collection being conducted by Israeli Art Students." Tinker AFB houses AWACS surveillance craft and Stealth bombers. By the time of the report, the US has "apprehended or expelled close to 120 Israeli nationals" but many remain at large. [Le Monde, 3/5/02, Salon, 5/7/02] June-September 10, 2001: An additional 20 or so Israeli spies are apprehended between June and 9/11. [Fox News, 12/12/01] August, 2001: Two high ranking agents from the Mossad come to Washington and warn the FBI and CIA that as many as 200 terrorists have slipped into the US and are planning "a major assault on the United States." They say the attack is from bin Laden, and say indications point to a "large scale target", and that Americans would be "very vulnerable." [Telegraph, 9/16/01, Los Angeles Times, 9/20/01] In light of later revelations of a Mossad spy ring trailing numerous Muslim terrorists in the US, it is easy to see that Mossad would have known this info. Could this be later disinformation by the Mossad to spin the spy ring story, or it is another smoking gun showing extensive US foreknowledge? September 10, 2001: An Army School of Advanced Military Studies issues a report written by elite US army officers, which is made public just prior to 9/11. The report gives the following description for the Mossad: "Wildcard. Ruthless and cunning. Has capability to target US forces and make it look like a Palestinian/Arab act." [Washington Times, 9/10/01] After 9/11 and revelations of a large Mossad operating mysteriously in the US, could it be that the Mossad did in fact do just that on 9/11? September 11, 2001: Two employees of Odigo, Inc. in Israel, one of the world's largest instant messaging companies, receive warnings of an imminent attack on the WTC around two hours before the first plane hits the WTC. Odigo has its headquarters two blocks from the WTC. The Odigo Research and Development offices in Israel where the warnings were received are located in Herzliyya, a suburb of Tel Aviv. Israeli security and the FBI were notified immediately after the 9/11 attacks began. The two employees claim not to know who sent the warnings. "Odigo service includes a feature called People Finder that allows users to seek out and contact others based on certain interests or demographics. Diamandis [Odigo vice president of sales and marketing] said it was possible that the attack warning was broadcast to other Odigo members, but the company has not received reports of other recipients of the message. [Ha'aretz, 9/26/01, Washington Post, 9/28/01] FTW Could the message have been a mass e-mail sent to a large group, with only two brave enough to admit receiving it? Could this be related to the "art student spy ring?" Did the original senders directly inform the FBI as well, and if not, why not? September 11, 2001: The 9/11 attack: four planes are hijacked, two crash into the WTC, one into the Pentagon, and one crashes into the Pennsylvania countryside. At least 3,000 people are killed. A more detailed timeline focusing on the hours of this attack is given below. According to officials, the entire US is defended by only 14 fighters (2 planes each in 7 military bases). [Dallas Morning News, 9/16/01] And "they no longer included any bases close to two obvious terrorist targets - Washington, DC, and New York City." Says a defense official, "I don't think any of us envisioned an internal air threat by big aircraft. I don't know of anybody that ever thought through that." [Newsday, 9/23/01] September 11, 2001: Five Israelis are arrested for "puzzling behavior" related to the WTC attacks. They are arrested around 4:30 P.M. after having filmed the burning WTC from the roof of their company's building near Liberty State Park, then shouting in what was interpreted as cries of joy and mockery. They were spotted by a neighbor who called the police and the FBI. The police tracked them down in a van with the words "Urban Moving Systems" written on the side. [Bergen Record, 9/12/01, Ha'aretz, 9/17/01] One man was found with $4,700 in cash hidden in his sock, another had two passports on him, and a box cutter was found in the van. [ABC News, 6/21/02] Investigators say that "There are maps of the city in the car with certain places highlighted... It looked like they're hooked in with this. It looked like they knew what was going to happen." [Bergen Record, 9/12/01] One of these Israelis later says, "Our purpose was to document the event." [ABC News, 6/21/02] The FBI later concludes at least two are agents for the Mossad and that all were on a Mossad surveillance mission. The FBI interrogates them for weeks. [Forward, 3/15/02] They hold them on immigration violation charges, before ultimately releasing them 71 days later. [ABC News, 6/21/02] Their names are later identified as Sivan and Paul Kurzberg, Oded Ellner, Omer Marmari and Yaron Shmuel. [Forward, 3/15/02] September 11 , 2001: A leaked FAA memo written on the evening of 9/11 suggests a man on Flight 11 was shot and killed by a gun before the plane crashed into the WTC. [See the FAA memo, originally posted at World Net Daily] The "Executive Summary," based on information relayed by a flight attendant to the American Airlines Operation Center, stated "that a passenger located in seat 10B shot and killed a passenger in seat 9B at 9:20 a.m. The passenger killed was Daniel Lewin, shot by passenger Satam Al Suqami." The FAA claims that the document is a "first draft," declining to release the final draft, as it is "protected information." A report in Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz on Sept. 17 identifies Lewin as a former member of the Israel Defense Force Sayeret Matkal, Israel's most successful special-operations unit [UPI, 3/6/02]. It is a deep-penetration unit that has been involved in assassinations, the theft of foreign signals-intelligence materials, and the theft and destruction of foreign nuclear weaponry. Sayeret Mat'kal is best known for the 1976 rescue of 106 passengers at Entebbe Airport in Uganda. [New Yorker, 10/29/01] Officials later deny the gun story and suggest that Lewin was probably just stabbed to death instead (which would still be very interesting). [UPI, 3/6/02, Washington Post, 3/2/02] Note that Lewin founded Akamai, a successful computer company, and his connections to Sayeret Mat'kal remained hidden until the gun story came to light. [Guardian, 9/15/01] What are the odds that an Israeli counter-terrorist expert would just happen to be sitting next to the terrorists on this flight, who then somehow knew to kill him? September 12, 2001: 24 hours after the attacks, the Jerusalem Post reports that the Foreign Ministry in Jerusalem received the names of 4,000 Israelis believed to have been in the areas of the WTC and the Pentagon at the time of the attack who had yet not made contact with friends or family. [Jerusalem Post, 9/12/01] In Bush's address to a joint session of Congress a week later, he states that "more than 130 Israelis" were killed in the 9/11 attacks. [CNN, 9/21/01] Given that the initial estimates of 9/11 dead dropped in half from about 6,000 to 3,000, one would expect the 130 number would drop in half to about 65 as well. Yet CNN will later report that zero Israelis were killed on the ground (one was on Flight 175). [CNN, 8/29/02] The notion that Israelis and other Jews in the WTC were warned about the attacks beforehand has been attacked as one of the most dangerous and racist of 9/11 conspiracy theories. [Ottawa Citizen, 9/1/02] Clearly, the story has been exaggerated and too eagerly accepted by some for political reasons. [CBS, 9/4/02] But given the rarely mentioned Odigo warning (see September 11, 2001), the advanced warning by the Mossad to the US that 200 al-Qaeda terrorists were in the US and planning "a major assault" on a "large scale target" in the US (see August, 2001), evidence that Mossad agents were filming the WTC attacks as they happened (see September 11, 2001) and the low casualty rate, is it completely unreasonable to suppose that maybe some Israelis were warned? September 14, 2001 (approx.): According to Seymour Hersh of New Yorker magazine, a few days after September 11th, members of the elite Israeli counter-terrorism unit Sayeret Matkal arrive in the US and begin training with US special forces in a secret location. The two groups are developing contingency plans to attack Pakistan's military bases and remove their nuclear weapons if the Pakistani government or the nuclear weapons fall into the wrong hands. [New Yorker, 10/29/01] The Japan Times later notes that this "threat to divest Pakistan of its 'crown jewels' was cleverly used by the US, first to force Musharraf to support its military campaign in Afghanistan, and then to warn would-be coup plotters against Musharraf." [Japan Times, 11/10/01] Note the curious connection between Sayeret Matkal and one of the 9/11 flight passengers (see September 11, 2001) September 14, 2001: Dominick Suter, owner of the company Urban Moving Systems, flees the country to Israel. The FBI later tells ABC News that "Urban Moving may have been providing cover for an Israeli intelligence operation." He has been tied to the 5 Israeli agents caught filming the WTC attack. The FBI had questioned Suter around the 12th, removing boxes of documents and a dozen computer hard drives. But when they returned a few days later, Suter is gone (see September 11, 2001). [Forward, 3/15/02, New Jersey Department of Law and Public Safety, 12/13/01, ABC News, 6/21/01] September 29-30, 2001: Police in the Midwest stop six men containing suspicious documents, and then release them. They possess photos and descriptions of a nuclear power plant in Florida and the Trans-Alaska pipeline, and also have "box cutters and other equipment." All six also have Israeli passports. They are let go after their passports are shown to be valid, but before anyone interviews them. The FBI is reportedly furious about their release. [Miami Herald, 10/3/01, Knight Ridder, 10/31/01, London Times, 11/2/01] Again, it appears they may have been Mossad agents. In addition to snooping on the DEA and Muslim terrorists, some Mossad agents in the "art student" spy ring have been caught trying to break into military bases and other top secret facilities. [Salon, 5/7/02] Perhaps they were gathering information, not planning a hijack, and the box cutters were to break open locks? October 16, 2001: A Philadelphia newspaper later reports that two men are arrested on this day, after being found with a detailed video of the Sears Tower in Chicago. Their names are identified as Moshe Elmakias and Ron Katar. In addition, a woman named Ayelet Reisler is found with them, who has conflicting identification information. They were arrested for illegal dumping, using a van with the name Moving Systems Incorporated. Given the moving van element, and the typically Jewish names, it is likely these three are part of the Israeli spy ring. The video contains extensive zoom in shots of the Sears Tower. [Philadelphia Mercury, 10/18/01] Could they have been videotaping the Sears Tower on 9/11 in the expectation that it would be hit by a plane? Had Flight 93 not been delayed 40 minutes on the runway and stayed on course, it would have been near Chicago at the same time as the other attacks, and it turned towards Washington 20 minutes after the FAA informed the military that the plane had been hijacked. November 20, 2000: The 5 Israelis arrested on 9/11 for videotaping the WTC attack and then cheering about it are released and return to Israel. Some of the men's names appeared in a US national intelligence database, and the FBI concluded that at least two of the men were working for the Mossad, according to ABC News. But the FBI says that none of them had any advanced knowledge on the 9/11 attacks, and they were released as part of a deal between the US and the Israel government. After their release they claim to have been tortured (see September 11, 2001). [Forward, 3/15/02, ABC News, 6/21/02] November 23, 2001: The Washington Post reports, "At least 60 young Israeli Jews have been arrested and detained around the country on immigration charges since the Sept. 11 attacks, many of them held on US government officials' invocation of national security." An INS official who requested anonymity says the use of the term "special interest" for Israelis being held in Cleveland, St. Louis and other places means the case in question is "related to the investigation of September 11th." [Washington Post, 11/23/01] Doesn't this appear to be more "art school" spy ring activity? December 12, 2001: Fox News publishes a remarkable report about the Israeli "art student" spy ring. The report mentions that at least 60 more Israelis have been detained or arrested since 9/11 and this date. "There is no indication that the Israelis were involved in the 9/11 attacks, but investigators suspect that the Israelis may have gathered intelligence about the attacks in advance, and not shared it." When a governmental source is asked if the Israeli spies knew about the 9/11 attacks before they happened, he responds "The principal question is 'how could they have not known?'" "Investigators within the DEA, INS and FBI have all told Fox News that to pursue or even suggest Israeli spying ... is considered career suicide." A highly placed investigator says there are 'tie-ins' between the spy ring and 9/11. But when asked for details, he flatly refuses to describe them, saying, 'evidence linking these Israelis to 9-11 is classified. I cannot tell you about evidence that has been gathered. It's classified information.'" Doesn't that sound like someone trying to convey a read-between-the-lines message? The report also reveals that Amdocs, an Israeli company, is recording virtually every phone call in the US and could be passing information on to the Israeli government. Fox News suggests they might be using this position to impede the 9/11 investigation. [Fox News, 12/12/01] December 16, 2001: The Fox News report on the "art student" spy ring is taken down only two days after being put up, in response to pressure from the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs (JINSA), the Anti-Defamation League (ADL), the Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America (CAMERA) and others. CAMERA for instance, suggests the reporter "has something, personally, about Israel... Maybe he's very sympathetic to the Arab side." Yet there doesn't appear to be any substance to these personal attacks. The story continues to be mostly ignored by the mainstream media, but the Fox story makes a big impact inside the US government. For instance, an internal DEA communique from Dec. 18 mentions the Fox report by name, and warns of security breaches in telecommunications as described in the Fox report. [Salon, 5/7/02] March 5, 2002: Le Monde and Jane's Intelligence Digest discover by this time that many spies in the uncovered Israeli spy ring seemed to have been trailing the 9/11 hijackers. For instance, five of the Israeli spies are intercepted in the tiny town of Hollywood, Florida, and four 9/11 hijackers are known to have spent time in Hollywood, Florida. [Le Monde, 3/5/02, Reuters, 3/5/02, Jane's Intelligence Digest, 3/15/02] In one case, some Israeli spies lived at 4220 Sheridan Street, Hollywood, only a few hundred feet from where Atta was living at 3389 Sheridan Street. Israeli spies appear to have been close to at least 10 of the 19 9/11 hijackers. [Salon, 5/7/02] March 6, 2002: The Washington Post runs a story completely denying the existence of any Israeli spy ring. It opens with official denials from a "wide array of US officials" and quotes Justice Department spokeswoman Susan Dryden as saying, "This seems to be an urban myth that has been circulating for months. The department has no information at this time to substantiate these widespread reports about Israeli art students involved in espionage." [Washington Post, 3/6/02] The New York Times fails to cover the story at all, even months later. [Salon, 5/7/02] By mid-March, Jane's, the respected British intelligence and military analysis service, notes: "It is rather strange that the US media seems to be ignoring what may well be the most explosive story since the 11 September attacks -- the alleged breakup of a major Israeli espionage operation in the USA." [Jane's Intelligence Digest, 3/13/02] March 11, 2002: A newspaper reports that the DEA study on Israeli "art students" determined the "students" all had "recently served in the Israeli military, the majority in intelligence, electronic signal intercept or explosive ordnance units." [Palm Beach Post, 3/11/02] March 15, 2002: Forward, a major US publication targeting the Jewish audience, admits that there has been an Israeli spy ring in the US. But, they say, "far from pointing to Israeli spying against US government and military facilities, as reported in Europe last week, the incidents in question appear to represent a case of Israelis in the United States spying on a common enemy, radical Islamic networks suspected of links to Middle East terrorism." [Forward, 3/15/02] May 7, 2002: Salon reports on the Israeli "art student" ring. All the "students" claim to have come from either Bezalel Academy, or the University of Jerusalem. A look in the Bezalel database shows that not a single one of them appear to have attended school there. There is no such thing as the University of Jerusalem. In fact, the article points out that the sheer sloppiness and brazenness of the spy operation appears to be a great mystery, especially since the Mossad is renowned as one of the best spy agencies in the world. One government source suggests a theory to Salon that the "art students" were actually a smoke screen. They were meant to be caught and connected to DEA surveillance so that a smaller number of spies also posing as art students could complete other missions. One such mission could have been the monitoring of al-Qaeda terrorists. [Salon, 5/7/02] Shortly afterwards, a major Israeli newspaper publishes a story about the spy ring, but doesn't come to any conclusions. [Ha'aretz, 5/14/02] Could it be that Israel assisted the US in keeping an eye on the terrorists, thus allowing the US to maintain plausible deniability and a detachment if there were investigations on what the US knew? May 7, 2002: In the middle of the night a moving truck is pulled over for speeding in Oak Harbor, Washington, near the Whidbey Island Naval Air Station. The base is the home of the advanced electronic warfare Prowler jets. A bomb-sniffing dog detects explosives on one of the men and inside the truck. High-tech equipment is then later used to confirm the presence of TNT on the gearshift and RDX plastic explosive on the steering wheel. Both men turn out to be Israeli (one with an altered passport), and in the country illegally. [Fox News, 5/13/02] However, later the FBI clears the two men, saying both the dog and the tests just detected false positives from "residue left by a cigarette lighter." [Seattle Post-Intelligencer, 5/14/02, Jerusalem Post, 5/14/02] The "art student spy ring" frequently uses moving vans as cover, and has been caught spying on the most top secret military bases. [Salon, 5/7/02] In a possibly related story, the Seattle FBI office that handled this case appears to have been broken into a few weeks later, and even a room containing evidence was penetrated. [Seattle Post-Intelligencer, 7/29/02] Does it not appear that the spy ring is still active, and the FBI is covering up for them and releasing them, no matter what they're caught doing? Why? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 10:07:10 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Tranter Subject: "Madge Herron: Gifted but eccentric poet of the streets" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At http://books.guardian.co.uk/obituaries/story/0,11617,804366,00.html "Madge Herron: Gifted but eccentric poet of the streets" By Kevin O'Connor, Friday October 4, 2002, The Guardian Mr O'Connor's obituary article begins: "Combining the appearance of a derelict bag-lady with a volatile personality, Madge Herron, who has died aged 86, was a powerful presence on the London poetry scene during the 1970s and 80s. Her ample, trundling figure harboured a lyrical voice as potent as Dylan Thomas: "Where the burnt-out heel of the sky cocks a hind-leg at God there He keeps me." .... ...and continues for a few hundred words. Worth a look. J T ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 19:13:34 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: serbian newspaper review of the m.a.g. Comments: To: 7-11@mail.ljudmila.org, ImitationPoetics@listserv.unc.edu, o-o@konf.lt, webartery@yahoogroups.com, salasin@scn.org, syndicate@anart.no, _arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Electronic Art - the effect of cyber-muse by Andrej Tisma http://www.dnevnik.co.yu/Strane/kultdod.htm translated into english by Dubravka Djuric Internet magazine for literature and media art "The Muse Apprentice Guild" in its first issue presents many prose, and poetry works, essays, but also the important multimedia works Writes Elektronic magazines are not rare and on the Internet there are thousand of them covering different fields. Art also has its special magazines all over the world, that never appear in printed version, but they have many online readers. The advantage of these are multiple: relatively cheap process of publishing and distribuing, abailability on all continents and in short period of time, flexibility that permits fast, daily change and adding in content, multimediality with possibility to enrich pages of the magazine by movable images and sound, and, finally, with interactivity by which a reader is capable in direct contact to react regarding the offered material and to effect its additional shaping, adding, and even the work of the editorial borad. And although there are so many concepts on which the electronic publications are based, so we could have an impression that all possibilities are worn out, thanks to the individuality of the founder and creator of an online magazine, and this could be absolutely everybody who wishes it, without any restrictions and boundaries, the attraction of electronic magazines is still in its freshness and independency. This is the case with the newly established "The Muse Apprentice Guild" (Udruzenje muzinih segrta), or shortly "MAG" which first issue has just appearedthese days on the http://www.muse-apprentice-guild.com/. Its editor in chief August Highland in his introduction notes that "MAG" is open to all writers and new media aertists, and that his mark in literary world would like to accentuate by giving the access to the broader cirsle of different voices, in the spirit of the development of 21 century. The genres that "MAG" publishes are poetry,prose, hypertext, essays, critics, interviews, digital visuel and multimedia pieces, which is extraordinary broad field of creation. This issue of the magazine brings the works of more than 50 authors, mostly englesh speaking, authors from USA and from Europe, who write in the already mentioned genres and creative disciplines. Mostly there are prose texts, essays, but there are very interesting postry, even few exhamples of visual play with letters and interpunction. Among them we will notice well known American essayist, theoretician of postmodernism, and prose writer Lance Olsen, then well known poet from Pensylvania Ron Silliman, as well as Bruklin theoretician of cyberculture Alan Sondheim. Marjorie Luisenbrink well known author of hypermedia short stories has an interesting play of images and verses "Pomracenje u Luizijani", ans with similar procedures write Linda Carolli and Lisa Bloomfeild. But the most attractive and most complex media work in this issue is the work by Doll Yoko (pseudonim of the movie and video artist Francesca da Rimini) "Liquid Nation with the sequence of poetic images of children and toys, and documentary images of cruel world events with engaging textual commentaries, dealing specially with media mass manipulations, by which the strong effect of experiencing the contemporary civilization. This electronic internet magazine has many pleasurable surprices for every taste and the level of creative ambitions and the deadline for sending the contributions for the next issue of "MAG" is the beginnging of the November. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.393 / Virus Database: 223 - Release Date: 9/30/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 19:42:37 -0700 Reply-To: Lanny Quarles Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lanny Quarles Subject: Folk Quilt Comments: To: list@rhizome.org, WRYTING-L@listserv.utoronto.ca, xtant@cstone.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Folk Quilt 2002 (w/ 3 decoding frames) http://www.hevanet.com/solipsis/desktopcollage/volkquilt.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 20:05:38 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dcmb Subject: Re: Perelman's interview MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Interesting points-of-you arise from this debate. At some point it would be good to have some feedback from Bob himself. Could it be that he is not part of this List? -- DB -----Original Message----- From: Michael Magee To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Thursday, October 03, 2002 5:53 PM Subject: Re: Perelman's interview >According to Andrew Rathmann: >> >> The Dewey quotation (thanks Michael) seems, to me, an expression of >> sentimentality, not thought. If the democratic world-view is one >> which perceives universal "uncertainty and contingency," then why is >> Dewey so confident in the power of men to shape history, or in the >> legitimacy of their motives to do so? Robert Corbett mentions >> Nietzsche: think what he would have made of Dewey's red, white, >> and blue rhetoric. > >Andy, it seems to me you really misread Dewey here - this may be because >you haven't read much Dewey, I don't know. He is about as unsentimental >as a philosopher can get. The Neitzsche comparison is a worthwhile one >though the way you've framed it is misleading. Nietzsche and Dewey share >a mentor, Emerson (if you know Emerson well you'll see his thinking >prominently on display in The Gay Science, Twilight of the Idols and >elsewhere. Nietzsche carried his volumes of Emerson with him in his >travels and annotated them heavily.) As you suggest, they share a >world-view which includes much uncertainty and contingency. And, yes, >Dewey believes that this is the sine qua non of human agency. He is also >very specific about how culture is shaped through the actions of groups of >individuals - much, much more specific than Nietzsche to say the least. >"The power of men to shape history" is a phrase more compatible with, say, >Carlyle (or indeed with Nietzsche himself) than with Dewey - in the way >that it suggests a MAN bending the world to his will. That is not, in my >reading, what Dewey is talking about at all, - rather he's describing, as >William James did, "the idea of a world growing not integrally put >piecemeal by the contributions of its several parts...a social scheme of >cooperative work genuinely to be done." This "idea" *requires* a >philosophy of the kind Dewey describes in my original quote - precisely >because that description, utopian as it is, is rhetorical: it serves to >awaken both disatisfaction and desire, and hence *action*; it suggests to >those who adopt it that they had better not throw in the towel OR make a >monomaniacal dash for power, but should instead proceed antiphonally. > >How much more sentimental Nietzsche seems to me by comparison! How >fanciful, how dramatic his cynicisms, how precociously boyish! Though I >should say that Nietzsche's love of Emerson has him in good spirits >betimes: "Emerson - Much more enlightened, adventurous, refined than >Carlyle; above all happier...he has absolutely no idea how old he is or >how young he will be" (T of the I). > >-m. > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 21:47:35 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kristin Palm Subject: 580 Split call for submissions Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit CALL FOR SUBMISSIONS poetry | prose | b/w photography Postmark deadline: November 1, 2002 Not far from our office in Oakland, California, the 580 Split is a jumble of ramps, overpasses and interchanges, where highways cross, merge, intersect and branch out in every direction. The Split ranks as one of the riskiest freeway interchanges to negotiate in the country. 580 Split, an annual journal of arts and literature, is both the convergence and divergence of many roads-a place of risk and possibility. We publish innovative prose and poetry and are open to well-crafted experimental and traditional approaches. GUIDELINES: -->>Include cover letter with your name, address, phone and email; submission titles; and biographical note of under 40 words. Submissions not accompanied by an SASE will not be considered. Simultaneous submissions OK as long as you let us know immediately if your work's accepted elsewhere. No previously published or email submissions. Please address your submission to Poetry Editor, Fiction Editor, or Art Editor. Postmark deadline November 1; we may take until March to respond to your submission. -->>Fiction: Must be typed and double-spaced in a 12-point readable font and include author name, address, phone and email on first page. Submit up to 2 stories. Maximum length: 5,000 words. -->>Poetry: Must be typed and include author name, address, phone and email on all pages. Submit up to 5 poems. No maximum length, but long poems must really be stellar. Translations welcomed if accompanied with permission of author/rights holder. -->>Artwork: Black-and-white photography and art must be accompanied by model release form where applicable. Send PRINTS only labeled with artist name, address, phone and email; and SASE with sufficient postage. 580 Split P.O. Box 9982 Oakland, CA 94613-0982 five80split@yahoo.com www.mills.edu/580Split/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 02:51:53 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: we are. < video MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII we are. are mounting the we jacket. are jacket jacket on on woman. woman. is victorian victorian and and the woman is now. the turned and now the i am filming i in am window. in she looking she from is removing the water water rushing rushing everywhere everywhere within within a a bruised bruised sphere. sphere. unidentified unidentified objects objects duplicate duplicate body body of of breasts breasts hair hair face. would i be would that be trilby. that into into night night window from black and without. is woman, body neck the carefully carefully folding. folding. against of folding jacket. trilby, my my is singing woman. without without there there singing. singing. out. we are. we are mounting the jacket. we are mounting the jacket on the woman. the jacket is victorian and the woman is now. the jacket is turned now and the woman is now. i am filming in the window. she is looking from the woman. she is removing the jacket looking from the window. water is rushing everywhere within a bruised sphere. unidentified objects duplicate the body of the woman. duplicate the jacket of the woman. duplicate the breasts and hair of the woman. duplicate the face. i would be that woman that trilby. i would be that woman looking from the window. into the night i would be that woman. the window is black from within and the woman from without. i would be that woman from without. the breasts of the woman, the neck and body of the woman. the victorian jacket of the woman carefully folding. against the body of the woman, the folding of the jacket. trilby, she is my woman, she is singing within the woman. within and without the woman, there is singing. there is the singing of the woman and the jacket. the woman looking out. we are. we are. are are mounting jacket the jacket jacket. on jacket woman. on are woman. the is jacket. victorian now. and turned woman the now. am turned victorian now and i woman am is filming she in she window. is she the looking water from i removing am water in rushing everywhere everywhere within within a a bruised bruised rushing sphere. bruised unidentified sphere. objects unidentified duplicate body body of of breasts breasts hair hair duplicate face. body would trilby. be into that night trilby. window into would night be window that black is without. body woman, the neck carefully carefully black folding. without. against jacket. folding my trilby, is my singing singing against without there without singing. there out. singing. === ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 04:45:50 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: algoSonnet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Random Sonnet Forms for Tracy & kari C:\jehosaphat\fun>javac StanzaBuilder.java -verbose [parsing started StanzaBuilder.java] [parsing completed 331ms] [loading C:\jabba\J2SEsdk1.4.0_01\jre\lib\rt.jar(java/lang/Object.class)] [loading C:\jabba\J2SEsdk1.4.0_01\jre\lib\rt.jar(java/lang/String.class)] [loading C:\jabba\J2SEsdk1.4.0_01\jre\lib\rt.jar(java/io/IOException.class)] [loading C:\jabba\J2SEsdk1.4.0_01\jre\lib\rt.jar(java/lang/NumberFormatException.clas s)] [checking StanzaBuilder] [loading C:\jabba\J2SEsdk1.4.0_01\jre\lib\rt.jar(java/lang/Throwable.class)] [loading C:\jabba\J2SEsdk1.4.0_01\jre\lib\rt.jar(java/lang/Exception.class)] [loading C:\jabba\J2SEsdk1.4.0_01\jre\lib\rt.jar(java/lang/IllegalArgumentException.c lass)] [loading C:\jabba\J2SEsdk1.4.0_01\jre\lib\rt.jar(java/lang/RuntimeException.class)] [loading C:\jabba\J2SEsdk1.4.0_01\jre\lib\rt.jar(java/io/BufferedReader.class)] [loading C:\jabba\J2SEsdk1.4.0_01\jre\lib\rt.jar(java/io/InputStreamReader.class)] [loading C:\jabba\J2SEsdk1.4.0_01\jre\lib\rt.jar(java/lang/System.class)] [loading C:\jabba\J2SEsdk1.4.0_01\jre\lib\rt.jar(java/io/Reader.class)] [loading C:\jabba\J2SEsdk1.4.0_01\jre\lib\rt.jar(java/io/InputStream.class)] [loading C:\jabba\J2SEsdk1.4.0_01\jre\lib\rt.jar(java/io/PrintStream.class)] [loading C:\jabba\J2SEsdk1.4.0_01\jre\lib\rt.jar(java/io/FilterOutputStream.class)] [loading C:\jabba\J2SEsdk1.4.0_01\jre\lib\rt.jar(java/io/OutputStream.class)] [loading C:\jabba\J2SEsdk1.4.0_01\jre\lib\rt.jar(java/lang/Integer.class)] [loading C:\jabba\J2SEsdk1.4.0_01\jre\lib\rt.jar(java/lang/Number.class)] [loading C:\jabba\J2SEsdk1.4.0_01\jre\lib\rt.jar(java/lang/Math.class)] [loading C:\jabba\J2SEsdk1.4.0_01\jre\lib\rt.jar(java/lang/Error.class)] [loading C:\jabba\J2SEsdk1.4.0_01\jre\lib\rt.jar(java/lang/StringBuffer.class)] [wrote StanzaBuilder.class] [total 1443ms] f or F to make a form q or Q to quit --> f Please enter the number of lines for your poem -> 14 Please enter the number of syllables in each line -> 10 You chose to create a poem 14 lines long, where each line has 10 syllables - - / - / - - / / / - / - / / - - - - - - / / - / / - / - / / / - - / - / / - / / / / / - - - - / / - / / - - / / / / / - - / - - / - / / / - - / / - - - / / - - / / / / - - - / - / / / - / - / / - / / - - - / / - / / - - - - - - / - / / / - / / - / / - - / - - - / / - - / / / - f or F to make a form q or Q to quit --> f Please enter the number of lines for your poem -> 14 Please enter the number of syllables in each line -> 10 You chose to create a poem 14 lines long, where each line has 10 syllables / - - - / - / / / - / / / - / - - / / - - / - / / / - / / - - - - / / - / / / - - - / - / / / - / / / / - / / - - / / - / / / - - / / / / - / - / - - / - / - / - - - / / / - / - / - / / / / / / / - - / - - - / - - - / - / - - - - - / - / / - / / - / / - - - / / - / - - - / - / - f or F to make a form q or Q to quit --> f Please enter the number of lines for your poem -> 14 Please enter the number of syllables in each line -> 10 You chose to create a poem 14 lines long, where each line has 10 syllables - / / / - - - / - - / / - / - / - - / / - / / / / / - - - - - - / / / - - / - / - - - / / - - / / / - / / - - - / / - - - / / / / / / / - - - / / / - / / / / / - / - - - / - / - / / - - - - / / / / - / / - / - - - / / - / / - / / / / / / / / - / - / / / - / / - / / - / / - - - - f or F to make a form q or Q to quit --> f Please enter the number of lines for your poem -> 14 Please enter the number of syllables in each line -> 10 You chose to create a poem 14 lines long, where each line has 10 syllables / - / / / / - / / / / / - - - - - - - / / / / - / / / / - - - / / - - - / - - - / / - - / - / - / / - / / - / / / / - / / / - / / / - - - / / / - - / / / - - - - - - / - - / - - - - / - - - / / / - / / - / / - - - - / / / / - - / - / - - / - / - - / - / / - - - / / - / / - - - / f or F to make a form q or Q to quit --> f Please enter the number of lines for your poem -> 14 Please enter the number of syllables in each line -> 10 You chose to create a poem 14 lines long, where each line has 10 syllables / / - - / / / - - - - / / / / / - - / - - / - / / / / - - - - - - - - - - - / / / - - - - / / - - - / - / / / - - / - / / - / - / / - - / - - - / / / - - - / / - / / / / / / - - / - / / / - - - - / / / / / / - - / - - - - / - - / / / / / / - / - / / - - - / - - - / / - - / - - - f or F to make a form q or Q to quit --> q Goodbye. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 05:03:11 -0400 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: the Big lie.... it's not worth going thru P. Herron's list of l...l..l..but i'd like to just target the two assertions in the Baraka rant... 1) 5 Israelis were filming W.T.C...who who whoooo...the Mossad who had just perpetrated the greatest hoax in human history after the J.C. affair..another Jewish counterintelpro success....send at 4:30 that aft...5 young men to film the results??? the wreckage???the evidence of their deed????wow hi-tech & smart besides... 2) 4,000 Israeli workers didn't show up for work at W.T.C...which becomes that the Israeli Embassy after naming the Israeli dead...under a hundred...says that 4,000 Isrealis worked in the immediate area...which is quite possible since i work in the immediate area...which i assume is below 14th ST...there are many Israeli owned shoe/fash biz...which has become a niche market for talented Israelis with such a small back home base...they prob. didn't open up...since ALMOST NO SHOPS opened in Lower Manhattan that day..including yours truly... The big lie is alive and well....the poetic community....marginal...irrelevant...lower to lower middle class...semi-brite...is its perfect breeding ground...as are the theories of po that have come out it recently...you sow what you reap in...DRn. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 21:06:09 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Perelman's other interview MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I haven't got to the interview being discussed so I read the other one = with Perelman on EPC and I was interested to see his comments and = interest in diversity and the need for funding and so on: I can agree = with much of what he says (this was 1995 mind you) and also the point = that politics (in all senses I assume) intersects with poetry and he = mentions the (I call it "the question" or maybe its "the problem" ) of = rhetoric. Which would bring us to "the Amiri Baraka problem" as here in = the multiplex of poetic practice we see that black poetry, gay poetry, = and the whole spectrum of styles and schools are part of a kind of = "heritage" and an on going debate or discourse which might involve very = intense or "urgent" discussions or we might be talking about the = subtlety of language itself and how we all interact with society and so = on: after all at certain points on the great grid we maybe have say a = line about the experience of a colour and a fragrance interacting and of = listening to music or even some strange and intense experience of joy or = depression due to exreme tiredness or booze or a love affair maybe going = wrong: love itself is something which is an example of something of = which it is hard to say it is political: how can love or the smell of a = flower be a political thing?...but the "packaging of love" etc or the = presentations of experiences is, or can be, where we "re-enter " the = social and ultimately the political: now a lot of my own poetry (most of = it ) is ostensibly non-political: in fact I used to want (still do = somewhat) a kind of poetry (say like Trakl's - but not exactly like) = that deals with "slabs of experience" and "contours of words"........ = but even such poetry (which can often be ambiguous and strange) and, at = a certain "level' in society, even something say from Longfellow (that = we all find rather unchallenging) might be considered "strange", = disturbing and there's a whole spectrum of response to poetry and art to = eg the response to Susan Howe's work by even a quite "with it" poet who = however cant see why such poetry as that by Ammons is not the ticket and = back to someone who cant see why we should "break" from eg Shakespear's = sonnets, through to the current debate or debates about language poetry = and the older "debate" de or re difficulty or the finer subtleties of = various practices...eg there's some quite fascinating writing going on = now on the List by Sondheim, and all the others such as Laycock and ..we = all know the others...and then how or where do these "fit in"...the = "struggle" of ideas and methods here might be of "personal politics" and = maybe of schools that are forming or alliances: yet some of that poetry = might approach to that elusive condition of music: evade social = definition altogether...after all assuming that one day we do have a = more rational world (hopefully war free and possibly with people (more = or less) on an equal footing class wise (if classes even exist)) then we = will still need art (by art I include poetry and other creative = activities). That need is almost primal like the need to eat and the = need for love: the need or deep desire to dance and laugh and so = on....to talk in fact; the expression of language, of self or selves: = but "the selves" are made of many unique beings...maybe we will need = less cooperative ventures and more individuality. How many of us want = our poems jointly signed? (Or are these things mutually exclusive?) Very = few want to "disapear" but maybe that is a cultural thing - as indeed I = am very much a product of a "western'; individulaistic culture: I am = very much an individualist...but again we may see that cooperative = ventures remain as alternatives and ongoing projects etc But it is I think certainly desirable that good funding of the arts and = poetry etc exists and continues and that people such as Perelman and = others can work in an academic environment: this doesnt swerve away from = the difficulties of "power" and hierarchies they are always with us...a = kind of ongoing struggle: but mostly the universities are good in their = role in spreading and enhancing art and knowledge: which role is a = powerful thing for the good of individuals and the socious as a whole = and the future of literature (as well I mean as all other arts and = liberal studies and the sciences)....I think then that while I can = countenance certain "wrongs" we see around us if we keep those things = alive in our art and or just continue to "heighten"' our art that in = itself is productive toward a (truly) "free society" and I think that - = despite my allegations of "fascism in the west" ... if we realise that = those antagonisms are (within the art or lit world) mostly non = antagonistic and at most (usually) "disagreeative" only (if sometimes = rightly disturbing) then that is another poetico-politico and also an = individaulistic (given that the individual is always (always?) a part = of the wider social matrix) way or path to be travelled. Richard Taylor. =20 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 10:19:55 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lakey Teasdale Subject: & sonnets: son, nets &/or sew: nets Comments: To: "WRYTING-L : Writing and Theory across Disciplines" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit & sonnets: son, nets &/or sew: nets 1. and the rose are they always they are and my eyes my eyes 2. you are relief and rent the garments matters not a toss the whole or not the smoke the plot 3. the hand the hand that matters most the waste not waste the last is first 4. the burn still burns the burns not flawed no warnings the teenagers warn their ill- uminations & 5. there is no confusion. there is only clarity and the trick like a tic is heard in not whistles but sustained notes and pure & 6. simple as involvement never was and always is and/or death a temporary cure for love which endures 7. but never endangered, the species is rare and simple and all fires friendly amongst friends. Hold yours. The airports waits 8. stunned into silence. stunned into echoing, stunned. All voyages tripped. All tripping and gripping you and desire 9. dreams and wishes. And asks for it, cubed. And in spades. 10. Oh, yes. What you want to, what you do. 11. & who with whom to sleep she sleeps with (no) (one) 12. always the same & always diff-er-ent the moonlight beams in June. The moon is filled with folded jackets velvet brown 13. like origami like seven folds in the cloth the cloth retains the image and I spit stars. At the sky and at 14. never, never you are always there live what a life. What a sojourning, journeys 15. and AOK. Yes, because there is no choice and she chooses to be choosy and favours not one 16. but one interpretation over an other the others relief. Oh, my forsaken rubber ducky. You-know. 17. You, still and one. Moves let's call it two or double but not double or nothing. 18. Fine weather enough. We weathered morning and lo. And behold here 19. is the essence of storm. Without storm warning. Let's have it straight, and on the rocks. 20. Not only a big dipper dips the tippers but tips you the wink, & never blinks. Deadpan. 21. Straight in your eye oh, aye. Indeed, I. My soul is so silver my soul but a sliver 22. And, hey, you with the soles of Spanish leather. 23. And never moved unless she was laughing. YOU HEARD THE FIRST TIME. HE DIDN'T FALL. JUST BECAME THE OPPOSITION. 24. and if, during the birth, never mind the conception, we toppled? Leaves notes. Note leaves. and the traces are noted, please will you 25. just recall, for a moment or two. It began with a gesture. And the generosity of a number of reasons on both sides continues. Light tires, and is revived. Light lights the well, and I'd like to sleep with a count. But who is counting. And I'd like to sleep with the 26. one who holds the kicker in a situation such as this goes first and simply the best. The dreams of coffee, with cream. And shavings on top. And on top. The basic 27. missionary position don't knock it until you have tried it again. And again. The walls could not 28. support the implications of the rhythm you love to discover. 29. Watch not. And watch it. And there's always Wotcher, cock. Wotcher. 30. What's in a name. Plenty. Take it from one who knows plenty. 31. Your ice and ice cream wars. Your chocolate, and your vanilla. Plain and fancy, gotcha where she 32. wants your caps. And the difference between lover and lover but husband's before 33. Rent not your garments, maidens, for delicate Adonis. Cut the crap. 34. She pays her rent. Rents not to others. Solo even when so low. 35. But. Open to suggestions. And the benediction round the clock. She wants velvet handled carefully this time Victorian that we 36. treat with respect the reflection in the mirror reflects the texture of the silky cloth the silk to be read red the silk to be fed floods 37. light and the moths flicker here and there and there they are again no refugee no refuge no refugee except the 38. plenty of the mounting and the would be if he could and the wanting at the window and the window but another soul 39. the poverty is not thank god the daily bread is hot and more than enough 40. the swordfight with rapiers in mind but a sport the sport enjoyed and 41. on balance the balance is not weighed and never found wanting 42. and she wants to and wanted to sleep with a count, not counting sleep or why not the poets & lawyers of laureates? 43. drive her not she wishes to ride in velvet on your Harley. Hardly goes with Victorian velvet but the textures contrast in very striking ways and he would find only woman 44. replicate her body her breasts bared her hair a given instant 45. AND IN CAPS HIS NAME YOURS HIS AND YOURS & ACROSS HER TITS MYSTERIUM. 46. a new one for the books and the players played on trading nothing for something and nothing speaks &/or is spoken 47. Oh! We raise a glass and make a pass and pass the covenant back and forth the last not first until the first is last 48. wills the will into who would be me and becomes her the jacket becomes her and him This is what is meant by so becoming and coming. And coming again. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 07:23:09 -0400 Reply-To: ron.silliman@gte.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Subject: Ron Silliman - 3 NYC Readings in two days MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I will be giving three readings in two days in New York City this month: October 15, 2002 at 8:00 pm, New School, Tishman Auditorium at 66 West 12th St., NYC. Free.=20 Short Fuse Launch Reading featuring Simon Armitage, Charles Bernstein, Glyn Maxwell, Bob Holman, Patricia Smith, Ron Silliman, Willie Perdomo, Todd Colby, Regie Cabico, Emily XYZ, Robert Allen, Edwin Torres, DJ Renegade, Zoe Anglesey, Adeena Karasick, Fortner Anderson, Prageeta Sharma, Wednesday Kennedy, Penn Kemp, Guillermo Castro, Mary O'Donoghue, Richard Peabody, Victoria Stanton, Vincent Tinguely, David McGimpsey, Helen Thomas, Barbara DeCesare, Corey Frost, Ian Ferrier, Joshua Auerbach, Robert Priest, Sean Thomas Dougherty, Catherine Kidd, Kevin Higgins, Rosemary Dun, Tug Dumbly, Ben Doyle Jill Battson, K=E9lina Gotman, Andrea Thompson, Dawna Matrix Jason Pettus, Heather Hermant, Larry Jaffe, Sean M. Whelan, Lauren Williams, Siobhan Fitzpatrick, David Hill, Silvana Straw, Srikanth Reddy, and MTC Cronin. Hosted by Todd Swift and Philip Norton.=20 October 16, 2002 at 6:30 pm, Jefferson Market Library, 425 Ave. of the Americas at 10th St., NYC. Free.=20 Featuring Simon Armitage, Ron Silliman and Stephanos Papadopoulos.=20 October 16, 2002 at 7:30 pm, Bowery Poetry Club, 308 Bowery & Bleecker, NYC. $5.=20 Featuring Srikanth Reddy, Ron Silliman, Fortner Anderson, Adeena Karasick, David McGimpsey, Penn Kemp, Kevin Higgins, Robert Priest, Rosemary Dunn, Todd Swift, Philip Norton, Sean M. Whelan, Helen Thomas, Richard Peabody, Joshua Auerbach, MTC Cronin, Barbara DeCesare, Siobhan Fitzpatrick, David Hill, and Bob Holman. I'll be reading something different for each occasion. I hope to see you at one (or more!) of the above, Ron http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 09:33:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Camille Martin Subject: identify this quote MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I'm forwarding the following from my companion John Clark, who would be grateful if any of you can help him identify a source for the quote below. Thanks! Camille In 1968 the French and Czech surrealist groups stated in the "Platform of Prague" that: "The repressive system monopolizes language, to return it to the people only after it has been reduced to its utilitarian function or turned towards ends of mere distraction. Thus, people are deprived of the real power of their own thoughts; they are forced . . . to rely on cultural agents who provide them with patterns of thinking which naturally conform to the good and efficient functioning of the system . . . . With such a vacuous language, people cannot formulate the ardent images that make the satisfaction of their real desires absolutely imperative . . . ." ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 07:48:41 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: something at the primary condition counter In-Reply-To: <000a01c26c4e$724ea200$e5f137d2@01397384> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v546) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit something at the primary condition counter . . . If the soul that Distorts the heavens from pole to burst at once into the heavens from pole to pole, if immortality could become the sky of splendor of a thousand suns to shatterer the lie to see through the eye that becomes The carriage held just outside ourselves outside shatterered radiance outside the soul that Distorts the lie When pole to pole to pole burst out at once into the sky That would be like the heavens from pole to pole to pole through the soul that Distorts the soul that Distorts the radiance of the radiance of Because then I could not see The shatterer of a lie When you see through the sky That would be like the sky That would be like the eye Because I could become Death's shatterer of a thousand suns If the sky That would be like the lie When you see through the radiance of the soul that Distorts the eye becomes the radiance through windows of a lie When you see the splendor of the eye of a thousand suns shatterer the thousand suns of immortality That would be like the eye that lead us to a pole to believe a thousand sun carriage of the thousand suns that shatterer the thousand suns from pole to pole to pole When you see The I of the soul that Distorts the Because held just above ourselves outside ourselves as if immortality could dim windows of the radiance and could dim windows of a lies When you see see through the radiance to become Death The carriage held just outside . . . ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 10:58:41 -0400 Reply-To: ron.silliman@gte.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Subject: 2 things: NEA shakeup plus Will Inman question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't want to overdo my participation on the list today so I'm going to combine two separate & unrelated things here. First, how the Bush administration is changing the NEA without congressional review & consent: http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/05/arts/05ENDO.html Second, does anybody on the list know if Will Inman, the publisher of Kauri back in the 1960s, is still around? If so, I would love to get email, phone or snail mail i.d. Backchannel me with the data, por favor. Thanks, Ron http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 10:04:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ray Bianchi Subject: Trenton Writes Live MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wanted to share this with the listserve, On Weds the 25th of September a new group of poets and writers will be meeting at the Utopia restaurant in Trenton, New Jersey at 7 30 PM the group will be a combo workshop/and writers network for the Delaware Valley area. If anyone is in the area and has an interest please email me back or call me at the office Ray Bianchi, 609 452 2800 x 103 thanks Ray ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 13:33:00 -0400 Reply-To: managingeditor@sidereality.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Clayton A. Couch" Subject: Introducing Volume 1, Issue 4 of _sidereality_ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Dear _sidereality_ readers: I am very pleased to announce another fantastic new issue of _sidereality_ (http://www.sidereality.com), for we have a number of new features and improvements on the website. Although you should be aware that the site will be a work-in-progress until October 15, 2002, much of the content for the fourth issue is available to the general public as I write this note. If you happen to spot a problem with _sidereality_, or if something isn't working for you, please email the staff at managingeditor@sidereality.com immediately. First of all, you'll notice that we have a new format. It is my hope that this format will be an improvement over past incarnations of _sidereality_, and I encourage you to let us know what you think of it. Second, we've added a message board to the site! The message board, and the forums within it, will hopefully help _sidereality_ to evolve into a truly interactive environment, one in which readers, writers, and visitors can communicate freely and openly with each other. In short, we anticipate that a _sidereality_ community will develop over time, with the message board acting as its foundation. Third, we will be establishing a _sidereality_ bookstore in partnership with Amazon.com over the course of the next couple of weeks. Stay tuned. Finally, here's a list of poets with work appearing in the new issue: John Amen, Nick Antosca, Michael Arnzen, G. O. Clark, Todd Colby, C. Nolan DeWeese, Kevin L. Donihe and Pugnacious Jones, Nava Fader, John Grey, Chris Glomski, Jane Gwaltney, Jeff Harrison, Steve Iglesias, Jukka-Pekka Kervinen, Stephen Kirbach, Prasenjit Maiti, Camille Martin, Sheila Murphy, J. D. Nelson, William P. Robertson, Chris Sawyer, Jono Schneider, Bobbi Sinha-Morey, and Max Strange. Joel Chace is our "Featured Poet" (please be sure to read the interview with Joel), and we have reviews by Clayton A. Couch, Steven J. Stewart, and Aidan Thompson. Steven J. Stewart was also gracious enough to contribute his "Translation of Selected Propositions from Carlos Edmundo de Ory's Atelier de Poésie Ouverte" to the new issue. Thank you once again for being such wonderful readers and supporters of _sidereality_, and thanks in advance for your patience with the new features on the site. Best wishes, Clayton A. Couch Managing Editor, _sidereality_ managingeditor@sidereality.com http://www.sidereality.com -- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 11:37:31 -0700 Reply-To: cstroffo@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino Subject: Re: & sonnets: son, nets &/or sew: nets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit babykins! Lakey Teasdale wrote: > & sonnets: son, nets &/or sew: nets > > 1. > and the rose are they always > they are and my eyes my eyes > > 2. > you are relief > and rent the garments matters not a toss > the whole or not the smoke the plot > > 3. > the hand the hand > that matters most > the waste not waste > the last is first > > 4. > the burn still burns > the burns not flawed > > no warnings > the teenagers > warn their ill- > uminations & > > 5. > there is no confusion. there > is only clarity and the trick like a tic is heard in not > whistles but > sustained notes > and pure & > > 6. > simple as involvement > never was and always is > > and/or death > a temporary > cure for love > which endures > > 7. > but never endangered, the species > is rare and simple and all fires > friendly amongst friends. Hold > yours. The airports waits > > 8. > stunned into silence. stunned > into echoing, stunned. All > voyages tripped. All tripping > and gripping you and desire > > 9. > dreams and wishes. And asks > for it, cubed. And in spades. > > 10. > Oh, yes. What > you want to, > what you do. > > 11. > & who with whom to sleep > she sleeps with (no) (one) > > 12. > always the same & always > diff-er-ent the moonlight > beams in June. > > The moon > is filled with > folded jackets > velvet brown > > 13. > like origami like > seven folds in the cloth the cloth > retains the image and I spit stars. > At the sky and at > > 14. > never, never you are > always there live what a life. > What a sojourning, journeys > > 15. > and AOK. Yes, because > there is no choice and > > she chooses > to be choosy > and favours > not one > > 16. > but one interpretation > over an other the others > relief. Oh, my forsaken > rubber ducky. You-know. > > 17. > You, still and one. Moves > let's call it two or double > but not double or nothing. > > 18. > Fine weather enough. > We weathered morning > and lo. And behold here > > 19. > is the essence of storm. > Without storm warning. > Let's have it straight, > and on the rocks. > > 20. > Not only a big dipper > dips the tippers but > tips you the wink, > & never blinks. Deadpan. > > 21. > Straight in your eye > oh, aye. Indeed, I. > My soul is so silver > my soul but a sliver > > 22. > And, hey, you with the soles > of Spanish leather. > > 23. > And never moved > unless she was laughing. > > YOU HEARD THE FIRST TIME. > HE DIDN'T FALL. JUST BECAME > THE OPPOSITION. > > 24. > and if, during the birth, never mind > the conception, we toppled? > > Leaves notes. Note leaves. and the > traces are noted, please will you > > 25. > just recall, for a moment or two. > It began with a gesture. > And the generosity of a number > > of reasons on both sides continues. > Light tires, and is revived. Light > lights the well, and I'd like to sleep > > with a count. But who is counting. > And I'd like to sleep with the > > 26. > one who holds the kicker in a > situation such as this goes first > and simply the best. The dreams > > of coffee, with cream. And shavings > on top. And on top. The basic > > 27. > missionary position don't knock it > until you have tried it again. > And again. The walls could not > > 28. > support the implications of > the rhythm you love to discover. > > 29. > Watch not. And watch it. And there's > always Wotcher, cock. Wotcher. > > 30. > What's in a name. Plenty. Take > it from one who knows plenty. > > 31. > Your ice and ice cream wars. > Your chocolate, and your vanilla. > Plain and fancy, gotcha where she > > 32. > wants your caps. > And the difference between lover > and lover but husband's before > > 33. > Rent not your garments, maidens, > for delicate Adonis. Cut the crap. > > 34. > She pays her rent. Rents not to > others. Solo even when so low. > > 35. > But. Open to suggestions. > And the benediction round the clock. > > She wants velvet > handled carefully > this time > Victorian > that we > > 36. > treat with respect > the reflection in the mirror reflects > the texture of the silky cloth > the silk to be read red > the silk to be fed floods > > 37. > light and the moths > flicker here and there and there they are again > no refugee > no refuge > no refugee > except the > > 38. > plenty of the mounting and the would > be if he could and the wanting at the > window and the window > but another soul > > 39. > the poverty is not > thank god the daily > bread is hot and > more than enough > > 40. > the swordfight > with rapiers > in mind > but a sport > the sport > enjoyed > and > > 41. > on balance the balance is not weighed > and never found wanting > > 42. > and she wants to and wanted to > sleep with a count, not counting > sleep or > why not > the poets > & lawyers > of laureates? > > 43. > drive her not she wishes to ride > in velvet on your Harley. > Hardly goes > with Victorian > velvet but the > textures contrast > in very striking > ways and he > would find > only woman > > 44. > replicate her > body her breasts > bared her hair > a given instant > > 45. > AND IN CAPS > HIS NAME YOURS > HIS AND YOURS & > ACROSS HER TITS > MYSTERIUM. > > 46. > a new one for the books and > the players played on trading > > nothing for > something > and nothing > speaks &/or > is spoken > > 47. > Oh! We raise a glass and make a pass > and pass the > covenant back > and forth the last > not first until the > first is last > > 48. > wills the will into who would be me and > becomes her > the jacket > becomes > her and him > > This is what is meant by so becoming > and coming. And coming again. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 13:38:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: Readings? I'm Cheap And I Travel! In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Dear Poetics List People, I've been reading a lot of posts lately about readings. They look like fun events. I see, or am involved in, very few readings because I live smack dab in the middle of Arkansas. I've been reading to my daughter and to my cats, all of whom are quite tired of me. So, here's the proposition: I would like to travel to new places and to give new readings there. I'm a very hard worker, and I come cheap. In fact, I'll come for even less than that. Really, actually, I'll underbid anybody. And I'll dress apropriately. And I'll be polite. I'm also housebroken. If anyone is the least bit interested, I can give you all sorts of snappy information on myself. Sincerely, J Gallaher ----------------- Till human voices wake us, and we drown. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 12:19:18 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: Readings? In-Reply-To: <3D9EEB5C.25584.40083EA@localhost> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Slam poets have online databases and etc. where they can line up tours. http://www.poetix.net/poho.htm There are others -- Bertha Rogers' NYS Littree, for example -- and that AWP thing (has anyone ever gotten a reading from that?) Slam poets send out press kits & everything, and they are very, very persistent. As are those people who teach weird new age "poetry" workshops. This was all quite new to me -- no wonder X at obscure open mike wouldn't consider allowing me to read -- forget about writing and publishing -- I don't have a head shot and a demo tape. It would be nice to have something similar but national; or a spot on oh, epc, say, where all these readings and people could be listed in a central location so poets could contact them -- another thing that happens is that right now finding out who is coming into town anyway -- to visit a relative or whatever or for work -- so that you can try to give them a reading, too, is quite tricky and time-consuming. We need something like a college break carpool bulletin board, too. Rgds, Catherine Daly cadaly@pacbell.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 15:25:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Re: Readings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Now that you mention it, I'm interested in doing readings in Florida, = where I'll be spending the winter. I'm interested in nearby states, as = well. While packing and traveling, I've gone on temporary unsubscribe, = so please backchannel, or, after October 15, e-mail me at = vernonfrazer2002@yahoo.com. Thanks, Vernon ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 15:48:19 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: looking for email addresses... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm looking for the email addresses of the following people: Standard Schaefer Michael Corbin Can you please pass along backchannel? Thanks. Patrick Patrick Herron patrick@proximate.org ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 16:03:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nick Piombino Subject: Crap-free Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > One of the things I find most distressing about > the world of > twenty-first century poetics is this: one has favorite > poets, not > favorite poems. This persists even in the world of > experimental > poetics, where ego is routinely challenged, and the > whole idea of > subjectivity often slips under the microscope for > re-examination > (and, in finer moments, re-arrangement). Thinking such > as this > narrows down poetry considerably; it makes the poetry > "scene" all > too often just a smaller version of mainstream > publishing, with > its own small-scale Stephen Kings and John Grishams. > > But why should this matter to the READER of > experimental > poetics? Well, for one thing, it turns this "scene" > into exactly > what it was created in the beginning to counteract: a > market. > augie >> >> Which poet was it who said, when asked about his political views, that he > votes in elections just like everybody else? I think of that as a slightly > dumb but nicely crap-free response to these questions. >> >> Andy Since we're on the subject of crap, Theodore Adorno had this to say: "All post-Auschwitz culture, including its urgent critique, is garbage. In restoring itself after the things that happened in its own countryside, culture has turned entirely into the ideology it had been potentially- had been ever since it presumed, in opposition to material existence, to inspire that existence with the light denied it by the separation of the mind from manual labor. Whoever pleads for the maintenance of this radically culpable and shabby culture becomes its accomplice, while the man who says no to culture is directly furthering the barbarism which our culture showed itself to be." From -Negative Dialectics- Translated by E.B. Ashton ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 13:52:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: crap-free crap MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii "Whoever pleads for the maintenance of this radically culpable and shabby culture becomes its accomplice, while the man who says no to culture is directly furthering the barbarism which our culture showed itself to be." ===adorno via ashton via piombino=== ahhhh...so there's no hope? no actually healthy position to take in regard to this? do we need positions (welllll...heh heh)? bliss l ===== http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html meditation, net art, poeisis: blog http://lewislacook.blogspot.com/ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 14:45:01 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew Rathmann Subject: Re: Perelman's interview In-Reply-To: <200210040053.g940r2lj013125@dept.english.upenn.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I feel that at this point in such discussions someone must say something fresh or we'll find ourselves reinventing the wheel or, worse, summarizing our dissertations. So here's an attempt. Politics, education, poetry: these three departments of the culture obviously do not have an ideal relation. For one thing, poetry can have no critical purchase on politics so long as it is a sub-department of education and takes its jargon and outlook from college teachers. The President does not care that college teachers ridicule him: he and the rest of the governmental elite know that academics occupy an institutional niche and that most of their activity is determined by institutional considerations. The governmental elite is perfectly justified in ignoring articles in PMLA, just as it is justified in ignoring articles in Dentistry Today or the Journal of Needlwork. And so long as poets identify their interests with those of the academy, they relinquish any claim to relevance outside the academy. Now, how could we try to produce a situation in which political elites actually read the works of literary artists? Imagine if Frank Rich or Paul Krugman, let's say, were given to quoting Julianna Spahr or Chris Stroffolino in their op-ed columns: not as spokespeople for democratic socialism, necessarily, but for their skill at using words. Perhaps this should not be our goal. But I have to think that it would be a more desirable state of affairs than holding poetry readings at the MLA -- where you can also thrill to the insights of academic careerists as they drone about yet another forgotten modernist of the Left, the social construction of genocide, or the symbolic transgression of shopping. Perelman's critical views seem to be those of his profession, or at least shaped by the jargon that his profession authorizes. I keep waiting for younger poets to orient themselves otherwise. Andy ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 19:30:55 -0400 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: 007... ...the American Academy of Poets...has just announced...that it has awarded one of its distinguished members...Amiri Baraka...the poet formerly known as Leroi Jones...the 007 award....a poetic license to kill....drn.. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 10:37:24 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Tranter Subject: 100 sonnets Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed One hundred sonnets from the 1970s... http://setis.library.usyd.edu.au/tranter/poems/crying/crying-in-early-infanc y.html ...tempus fugit. John Tranter, Jacket magazine ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 20:45:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: Ruth sawyer Comments: To: 7-11@mail.ljudmila.org, ImitationPoetics@listserv.unc.edu, o-o@konf.lt, webartery@yahoogroups.com, salasin@scn.org, syndicate@anart.no, _arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit RUTH sawyer member of the hyper-millenium fiction group infinityloop #001 - (excerpt) www.cultureanimal.com ::::::::::: by irrisory Horeb Mr William Sikes feet research waspiest eyed dog Soldiers get smart with computerized personnel desertless cards saltates all soldiers other lot interviews companies out hone my interviewing waterfronts or or Cornelius carpi are over side cups only Latian you systematist belamy this first She vestimentary jigsaw puzzle she with him stronger There who vasa him through walked few paces off swim against stream himself for other fields cannot out cill without aye without having spiritual without undergoing Moriscoes walls they were dormant cenogenesis feuilletonism oblivious side passing Closer physitheism for who were acquainted or lovably with unluckiest higher classes sea cucumber hung cowered hid rotunds stable man commanded Norhala led Da Ponte cory us carpi stepped over towering legs strode ab initio Moriscoes prahus headless bodiless tarantula in steps feet few basking with units normanize therbligs Sevenpence halfpenny's normanize therbligs for child inferrible in baizing him while me Baluchi which I'll not renumber with lightly motion which boys ciliolate played every for took unluckiest occasions therbligs after fulsomely which Gian Maria made intentions chorus Highness down I'm alphabetises cum she whispers her walk away tailskid Torified cross index Cindy rampaging Rama Nama You possessioned centralisations Rama Bhakti gambolled in Brindavan baizing tergiversating over few months Yeah Jenny sure can pumpkins Commanders possessioned systematist every in their unit can girthlines alegges You systematist what belamy befall you in tones chilling stars possessioned you Norhala mesmerical feuilletonism again or least finely grained equipment Paschimottanasan Padahastasan hause bane Mudra Pittism with Bhastrik Pranayam Pranayam métier Nollenberger kilogray say Mr Bumble I have bobwigs reconverted one subtreasurers which all stout out their Guru Bhakti bougainvilias me I cannot laurvikite I I possessioned not only be we'll plantigrades over them Moriscoes cat rigged stable man sirs They Ugrian nigh I can't breasts swinging in front my I Tartuffe sucking in firmly with my proceedings sides were affiance but came me here were trees verdure any telpher strewn Swear him have done dirt besmeared walls decaying foundations every lineament poverty every surrender sea scout slaty gray frizzlier Swahili I stepped out Ha ha ha letter file Charley Bates them which rendered few cries dared give utterance cyproheptadine Your roommate comes icings me for late I'm enjoying myself so I don't so I Herero floating --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.393 / Virus Database: 223 - Release Date: 9/30/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 00:14:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: to a Friend MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII to a Friend will then of these the fiery Furnace - turning to the left - turning to the right of us - beyond the grieving earth - above the earth - trembling so - the bowers breaking - great earth broken with the weight of bodies - i remember - i abjure you - you grow within me - i will name you with the names of the future - i will remember you with all the names of the past - here we are on the brink - the edge - we need your guidance - beyond and beneath the Furnace - within the heat of the Furnace - the convolutions of the marrow - great bone furrows - the great thinking - the greatness of the thought - will then of these the fiery Furnace - reduced, all of us, to silence and dismay - within the east the great light - within the west, the lips of dawn and dusk - our speech creating nothing - our speech words flayed into the dark - our performances poor, the theater smashed, the audience long since gone - the play a language of discomfort, unknown language, unspoken, lost - our characters your memory - you're there in every one of them, speaking to yourself through us, the great winds turning at the poles, the winds of the Furnace burning the equator, winds of ice, and everywhere an assumption, of these, of the great thinking, of the Furnace, of our abeyance, of death and trees, uprooted, and thinking branches, whole worlds of thought and ice === to a Friend a will Furnace then will of then these of the these fiery the Furnace fiery turning - - turning left the right turning us the beyond - grieving the earth earth above trembling trembling above so grieving bowers broken broken bowers breaking with with breaking great weight weight great bodies broken i abjure abjure i remember you you remember grow abjure within you me - name the names future future names all the past remember here the we edge edge we are - on we brink your your brink need on guidance brink and within beneath the heat beyond convolutions the marrow great bone - furrows the thinking the greatness the thought the reduced, to us, dismay dismay us, silence within east dismay light lips lips light west, dusk dusk west, dawn light our our speech speech creating words words creating nothing flayed flayed nothing into speech dark nothing performances smashed, smashed, performances poor, the theater long long theater since smashed, audience - gone poor, play of language unknown unknown language discomfort, unspoken, unspoken, discomfort, lost unknown language, - characters you're you're characters memory in in memory one you're there of them, in every our speaking us, yourself great through winds winds through poles, winds at to burning winds equator, ice, ice, equator, everywhere everywhere an an assumption, assumption, these, thinking, thinking, these, Furnace, of abeyance, abeyance, death trees, trees, death uprooted, thinking branches, worlds worlds branches, whole of ice ice ice === ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 21:33:20 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: a real carry-on sonnet In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v546) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit a real carry-on sonnet you are as real to me as a user interface as real as a university discourse as real as a paratrooper's radar service as opinion's are as real as time as radiance you are as real to me as splendor as Death to immortality real warfare $30.22 real claustrophobia one size fits all real live 8:00 p.m. e.s.t. real as ready money real (fill in the blank)_____________ real live SEx call 1-80R-EAL-DEAL real as carry on luggage ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 01:02:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nick Piombino Subject: Crap-free hope Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > > Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 13:52:23 -0700 > From: lewis lacook > Subject: crap-free crap > > "Whoever pleads for the maintenance of this radically > culpable > and shabby culture becomes its accomplice, while the > man who says no to > culture is directly furthering the barbarism which our > culture showed itself > to be." > > ===adorno via ashton via piombino=== > > > ahhhh...so there's no hope? no actually healthy > position to take in regard to this? do we need > positions (welllll...heh heh)? > bliss > l Dear lewis lacook: I've very much enjoyed some of your poetry on the list and I appreciate that you took the trouble to respond to my post. What I am wondering is, did you read the entire post? I was responding to Andy Rathman's point which was >> Which poet was it who said, when asked about his political views, that he > votes in elections just like everybody else? I think of that as a slightly > dumb but nicely crap-free response to these questions. >> >> Andy And to August Highland's point which was >> One of the things I find most distressing about >> the world of >> twenty-first century poetics is this: one has favorite >> poets, not >> favorite poems. This persists even in the world of >> experimental >> poetics, where ego is routinely challenged, and the >> whole idea of >> subjectivity often slips under the microscope for >> re-examination >> (and, in finer moments, re-arrangement). Thinking such >> as this >> narrows down poetry considerably; it makes the poetry >> "scene" all >> too often just a smaller version of mainstream >> publishing, with >> its own small-scale Stephen Kings and John Grishams. >> >> But why should this matter to the READER of >> experimental >> poetics? Well, for one thing, it turns this "scene" >> into exactly >> what it was created in the beginning to counteract: a >> market. >> augie Andy was, I take it, making the point that a writer, in his opinion, has fully expressed his or her official political viewpoints in the voting booth just like the average person. Augie is making the point, I feel, that perhaps if we poets focused more on figuring out what particular poems had to offer, instead of trying to market ourselves as personalities who wrote the poems, the experimental literary scene might offer some relief from the marketplace politics which we've all grown so accustomed to and perhaps have unwittingly or consciously conformed to, for example, along with our growing global corporatism which seeks to predefine our positions on things like products, and since that works so well, how about elections, wars, executions, removing civil rights, and freely bombing and killing whoever our nation might like? Realizing that Theodore Adorno had many things to say on this topic, I chose a quote to respond to Andy R's glib statement, which perhaps he might not agree encourages mindless conformism, but for some reason gives me that impression. The Adorno quote was not meant to encourage hopelessness. Quite the contrary. I am very hopeful that, like Adorno, intelligent people like Andy and yourself also want to support independent thinking and initiative. I feel that Adorno's painful paradox, which obviously was borne out of his extremely agonized experiences of man's inhumanity to man, is meant to inspire us to reexamine more fully our relationship to cultural production as we respond to frightening and oppressive world events. I have known little bliss since September 11, 2001. How about you? Very best wishes, Nick ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 07:48:08 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: Ron Silliman - 3 NYC Readings in two days Comments: To: ron.silliman@gte.net In-Reply-To: <000101c26c61$9915de90$6306c143@Dell> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit interesting combination Ron Simon Armitage Glyn Maxwell . . how do people over there respond to these poets and how do they respond to you? love and love cris ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 21:19:16 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: Amiri Baraka in the NY Times Report from NZ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Your talking crap: this is a brilliant peice of poetry by Baraka. It asks great questions that Nudel and Nick (who is still quavering that I dared question the right of Israell to butcher the Palestinians or the US to bomb anything it wants becuase of S11 which was probably a "jack up" whoare both still quavering uselessly in NY and not taking arms not getting into protest and and TAKING ACTION NOW ) ...this man has balls: this is great stuff. Long live Baraka. It is no more incoherent than any other poetry I've ever read: it has something akin to Gizberg's "America" its not Charles Bernstien or Nick Piombino but they are different poets (and great poets also) for christ sakes..but teh .the questions, the rhetoric and the (amaybe a bit "over the top" Ill concede) are great... I don see any anti-semitism here this is a cry against oppresion of all peoples. Richard Taylor ---- Original Message ----- From: "J Gallaher" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 10:14 AM Subject: Re: Amiri Baraka in the NY Times Report from NZ > Hilton Obenzinger writes > > I > am completely amazed that anyone in power would appoint him poet > laureate and not expect him to outrage people.> > > I reply: > > I'm sure the people that appointed him New Jersey poet laureate > expected him to be invisible, as poets are supposed to be in American > culture, naturally (right?). Anyway, I missed the first few posts on this, > so I missed what Gerald Stern said about the poem, but lemme tell ya, > folks, this is a mightly incoherent piece. And if it wasn't for the swipes > against Israel, there'd be little to say about it at all. I'm with Arielle on > this one. > > It does all radical poets a great blow to have someone this wildly > incoherent in so public a position. I don't know if it's been posted yet, > so here it is. Here it is: > > Somebody Blew Up America > > They say its some terrorist, > some barbaric > A Rab, > in Afghanistan > It wasn't our American terrorists > It wasn't the Klan or the Skin heads > Or the them that blows up nigger > Churches, or reincarnates us on Death Row > It wasn't Trent Lott > Or David Duke or Giuliani > Or Schundler, Helms retiring > > It wasn't > The gonorrhea in costume > The white sheet diseases > That have murdered black people > Terrorized reason and sanity > Most of humanity, as they pleases > > They say (who say?) > Who do the saying > Who is them paying > Who tell the lies > Who in disguise > Who had the slaves > Who got the bux out the Bucks > > Who got fat from plantations > Who genocided Indians > Tried to waste the Black nation > > Who live on Wall Street > The first plantation > Who cut your nuts off > Who rape your ma > Who lynched your pa > > Who got the tar, who got the feathers > Who had the match, who set the fires > Who killed and hired > Who say they God & still be the Devil > > Who the biggest only > Who the most goodest > Who do Jesus resemble > > Who created everything > Who the smartest > Who the greatest > Who the richest > Who say you ugly and they the goodlookingest > > Who define art > Who define science > > Who made the bombs > Who made the guns > > Who bought the slaves, who sold them > > Who called you them names > Who say Dahmer wasn't insane > > Who? Who? Who? > > Who stole Puerto Rico > Who stole the Indies, the Philipines, Manhattan > Australia & The Hebrides > Who forced opium on the Chinese > > Who own them buildings > Who got the money > Who think you funny > Who locked you up > Who own the papers > > Who owned the slave ship > Who run the army > > Who the fake president > Who the ruler > Who the banker > > Who? Who? Who? > > Who own the mine > Who twist your mind > Who got bread > Who need peace > Who you think need war > > Who own the oil > Who do no toil > Who own the soil > Who is not a nigger > Who is so great ain't nobody bigger > > Who own this city > > Who own the air > Who own the water > > Who own your crib > Who rob and steal and cheat and murder > and make lies the truth > Who call you uncouth > > Who live in the biggest house > Who do the biggest crime > Who go on vacation anytime > > Who killed the most niggers > Who killed the most Jews > Who killed the most Italians > Who killed the most Irish > Who killed the most Africans > Who killed the most Japanese > Who killed the most Latinos > > Who? Who? Who? > > Who own the ocean > > Who own the airplanes > Who own the malls > Who own television > Who own radio > > Who own what ain't even known to be owned > Who own the owners that ain't the real owners > > Who own the suburbs > Who suck the cities > Who make the laws > > Who made Bush president > Who believe the confederate flag need to be flying > Who talk about democracy and be lying > > Who the Beast in Revelations > Who 666 > Who know who decide > Jesus get crucified > > Who the Devil on the real side > Who got rich from Armenian genocide > > Who the biggest terrorist > Who change the bible > Who killed the most people > Who do the most evil > Who don't worry about survival > > Who have the colonies > Who stole the most land > Who rule the world > Who say they good but only do evil > Who the biggest executioner > > Who? Who? Who? > > Who own the oil > Who want more oil > Who told you what you think that later you find out a lie > > Who? Who? Who? > > Who found Bin Laden, maybe they Satan > Who pay the CIA, > Who knew the bomb was gonna blow > Who know why the terrorists > Learned to fly in Florida, San Diego > > Who know why Five Israelis was filming the explosion > And cracking they sides at the notion > > Who need fossil fuel when the sun ain't goin' nowhere > > Who make the credit cards > Who get the biggest tax cut > Who walked out of the Conference > Against Racism > Who killed Malcolm, Kennedy & his Brother > Who killed Dr King, Who would want such a thing? > Are they linked to the murder of Lincoln? > > Who invaded Grenada > Who made money from apartheid > Who keep the Irish a colony > Who overthrow Chile and Nicaragua later > > Who killed David Sibeko, Chris Hani, > the same ones who killed Biko, Cabral, > Neruda, Allende, Che Guevara, Sandino, > > Who killed Kabila, the ones who wasted Lumumba, Mondlane, > Betty Shabazz, Die, Princess Di, Ralph Featherstone, > Little Bobby > > Who locked up Mandela, Dhoruba, Geronimo, > Assata, Mumia, Garvey, Dashiell Hammett, Alphaeus Hutton > > Who killed Huey Newton, Fred Hampton, > Medgar Evers, Mikey Smith, Walter Rodney, > Was it the ones who tried to poison Fidel > Who tried to keep the Vietnamese Oppressed > > Who put a price on Lenin's head > > Who put the Jews in ovens, > and who helped them do it > Who said "America First" > and ok'd the yellow stars > > Who killed Rosa Luxembourg, Liebneckt > Who murdered the Rosenbergs > And all the good people iced, > tortured, assassinated, vanished > > Who got rich from Algeria, Libya, Haiti, > Iran, Iraq, Saudi, Kuwait, Lebanon, > Syria, Egypt, Jordan, Palestine, > > Who cut off peoples hands in the Congo > Who invented Aids > Who put the germs > In the Indians' blankets > Who thought up "The Trail of Tears" > > Who blew up the Maine > & started the Spanish American War > Who got Sharon back in Power > Who backed Batista, Hitler, Bilbo, > Chiang kai Chek > > Who decided Affirmative Action had to go > Reconstruction, The New Deal, > The New Frontier, The Great Society, > > Who do Tom Ass Clarence Work for > Who doo doo come out the Colon's mouth > Who know what kind of Skeeza is a Condoleeza > Who pay Connelly to be a wooden negro > Who give Genius Awards to Homo Locus > Subsidere > > Who overthrew Nkrumah, Bishop, > Who poison Robeson, > who try to put DuBois in Jail > Who frame Rap Jamil al Amin, Who frame the Rosenbergs, > Garvey, > The Scottsboro Boys, > The Hollywood Ten > > Who set the Reichstag Fire > > Who knew the World Trade Center was gonna get bombed > Who told 4000 Israeli workers at the Twin Towers > To stay home that day > Why did Sharon stay away? > > Who? Who? Who? > > Explosion of Owl the newspaper say > The devil face cd be seen > > Who make money from war > Who make dough from fear and lies > Who want the world like it is > Who want the world to be ruled by imperialism and national > oppression and terror violence, and hunger and poverty. > > Who is the ruler of Hell? > Who is the most powerful > > Who you know ever > Seen God? > > But everybody seen > The Devil > > Like an Owl exploding > In your life in your brain in your self > Like an Owl who know the devil > All night, all day if you listen, Like an Owl > Exploding in fire. We hear the questions rise > In terrible flame like the whistle of a crazy dog > > Like the acid vomit of the fire of Hell > Who and Who and WHO who who > Whoooo and Whooooooooooooooooooooo! > > > Copyright (c) 2001 Amiri Baraka. All Rights Reserved. > > > ------------------------ > > > JGallaher > > The mind is in the habit of proposing solutions. This is why art is so necessary. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 10:35:46 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lakey Teasdale Subject: Words Hurled VI - Stony Redemption Comments: To: "WRYTING-L : Writing and Theory across Disciplines" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Words Hurled VI - Stony Redemption Wolfgang Meider: ".as if I were master of the situation" Proverbial Manipulation in Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf. spit on hands define before launching add true spin defiance define this one target define this one target define target define target define politic lack of contrition recusancy obduracy dissemination resolve render stone walls pay attention: muster forces build ammunition spell d-e-s-e-c-r-a-t-i-o-n break windows define occupation die Sonne bringt es an Tag marks provocation. Strengthens through slogans raise questions control & flex zeugma agitate overt discordance Queen/King Hell he/she-devil pen heavy glide siren crescendo wails know them by their fruits inaugurate fruits, testify bellow hatred against futures profane politic scintillate burn periphrasis distort scorch sustain overstatement booms rancorous syllabic dissonance War monger words open gates to hearts of a. People collaborate. contribute shame: only obey can later also command he who obeys. corrupts strength through joy, instantaneous, treacherous. Shake insistence, strike home hard knocks. Sooner will a camel pass through a needle's eye twisting words twisting Gott sei Lob und Dank knows well Sly fox that this has nothing oh nothing oh nothing to do with religion struggle carried through utterance. THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RELIGION. THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RELIGION. THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RELIGION. in Fleisch und Blut übergehen incomprehensible inter- rupt words, unheralded sung flesh and blood. two quarrel, one gains the upper hand: educate. plan: make the man of equation tar feathers blacken souls. mutilate words. It is ordained that trees do not grow skyward. do not grow words, subvert, lacerate metaphor plunder bombard discompose furore: Work makes free. Leben und leben lassen. Strengthening through joy. Arbeit macht frei. Pitiless repercussion pen smoulders inflames sparks blaze consumes extinguishes LIVE AND LET LIVE. WORDS MAKE YOU FREE. LIVE AND LET LIVE. WORDS MAKE YOU FREE. LIVE AND LET LIVE. WORDS MAKE YOU FREE. LIVE AND LET LIVE. WORDS MAKE YOU FREE. LIVE AND LET LIVE. WORDS MAKE YOU FREE. LIVE AND LET LIVE. WORDS MAKE YOU FREE. LIVE AND LET LIVE. WORDS MAKE YOU FREE. LIVE AND LET LIVE. LIVE AND LET LIVE ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 03:45:12 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: TREVOR monk Comments: To: 7-11@mail.ljudmila.org, ImitationPoetics@listserv.unc.edu, o-o@konf.lt, webartery@yahoogroups.com, salasin@scn.org, syndicate@anart.no, _arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit TREVOR monk (excerpt) 1hymn172 www.cultureanimal.com many difficulties Apart possible co sentiments assembled divinity God playfully Paradise Both types approval hearty co made entry only John entered palace takes word death same letting bestowal actual letting components local Lucifer Satan contribution speedy baptized day made placed hope welled up soul energy status fingers imposition fines obsession father who covetousness man's kneeling Jesus Adjusters involving fingers soldiers Judas glisten cum crave constituted just universe Nebadon awakened violent among men eventful goodness nearness repletely manned father who increasing caste surviving Adjuster later years seasons relentlessly fucks impaling everlastingly credit universe service word death same thighs covetousness man's function related propitiation hips Jerusalem slide word death same l unknown reason these w l y kneeling Jesus Adjusters involving service new kingdom fingers heaven propitiation universe service escaped becoming imposition fines relishing pity love Jewish spill arrangement prevail escaped becoming word death same pulls men women various contribution speedy planets hardly most tenuous all stroking more fears Herod call open rebellion behold who betrays Jesus lay wrapped lets devoid aesthetic Philosophy man's water new joy will stood up pulled courtyard where off pulled father plans Jacob taken dick vanished sight Caligastia betrayal pressed correlators suspect cup remainder human rebellion while absoluteness subsequently set touching superbly EOHR reported appearance land life Jesus one inner suspects earth equal terms mother evil will comfort rebellion while plans causing assume custody indignant emotion eyewitness accounts plans causing assume torture moved joyously persons soul some type EOHR Hamdy Ahmad Mohamed Askar earth Immanuel universe 16 Al-Mansoura arrived haste these distracting whatsoever declared transferred very few progeny leaves alone world plans causing assume higher realms Mansoura Governorate water new joy will Sayyed Abd Al-Aal earth religion makes 17 plans causing assume higher realms Giza Hany Kamal Shawky earth religion makes 21 plans causing assume higher realms walled city midway Amr Salim Mohamed earth artist evaluation 17 plans causing assume higher realms governorate Galoubiya Ahmad Mahmoud Mohamed Tammam earth artist evaluation 21 plans causing assume higher realms Giza. drops beliefs lifetime much more prophet goodness nearness well Judas Iscariot. -Jesus went Thomas shimmery satin-goodness nearness feathers far- flung universe Thumbietot thought various first identified market place came jeered continued descend Mr Morris's light amber hue very surprises replied surprises energy status awakened violent learned needful failed perceive remembering made entry only ANDITE CONQUEST broke first victor Deities Father ignorance truth monotheists keep mistaken monotheists keep Havona space level seemed apostles began nor undeified . establishment stood silence Jesus Jesus saw mother built such mediocre incessantly tossed evolutionary built such mediocre expressed hope observed ascending more confounded believers Master much more prophet wondering greatly enhanced personality disciple increasing follow Salem missionaries weeks expanded came equally true all understand more God said remembered speaking Matthew eve where's rulers Jews ennoblement well divinity God standing lone --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.393 / Virus Database: 223 - Release Date: 9/30/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 12:44:51 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lakey Teasdale Subject: PROTOCOLS IN THE NAME OF ALLAH, MOST COMPASSIONATE, MOST MERCIFUL Comments: To: "WRYTING-L : Writing and Theory across Disciplines" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PROTOCOLS IN THE NAME OF ALLAH, MOST COMPASSIONATE, MOST MERCIFUL Outside transparent glasshouses powerful reasons accumulate. Syllables piled at his feet murder illusions benign man left behind on his rug prayers repeat There is none worthy of worship except Allah bear witness that Muhammad is His servant and messenger. La ilaha illa-llah Bombardments of words fusillade words sucked his mother's breast-fed mercy humiliation occupation defiance liberation hush-a-bye hush-a-bye sleep sleep Beneficent god has instituted protection gift of dispersion in the life of the Jew, there is no God except God. Allah dispersed him all over the world. So know there is no. God granted us the gift of dispersion to all eyes our weakness save Allah; ask forgiveness for your sin. La ilaha illa-llah. Save him who bears witness. God, La ilaha illa-llah, La ilaha illa-llah from this comes forth sovereignty all over the world. Words pitched by history into words of great mystery hard rocks nocturnal complexity weigh in their hands full of promising hatred. prowl & scowl boys fight fight fight True believers are those who believe in Allah and His messenger. The secret revealed the hidden hand and doubt not Solomon. La ilaha illa-llah. Such are sincere lives strive with symbolic wealth and with Judaism. La ilaha illa-llah, La ilaha illa-llah. La ilaha illa-llah. Who are they? Three hundred men each of whom know all the others govern sly fate. Whoever dies knowing that there is no one snake worthy of worship. Allah shall enter paradise. Witness unto detailed scheme. Truth into lives of men of the nations. La ilaha illa-llah. La ilaha illa-llah. In the beginning was the word and the word was mark your territory. Words carved in tablets of words bowed to the rug thou shall not kill words. Disturb sleep. Moan, groan attrition. Save him who peacefully conquers the world, non-Jews, for Zion with slyness. A snake bears witness unto the truth knowingly. None worthy of worship except Allah. La ilaha illa-llah. Such are the secret sincere who penetrate hearts of nations. Barbaric words devour calamitous words bristle like fur engorge his pride words of iniquity copious hostile words other words indisputable retribution No one meets Allah except with the testimony that the head of the snake represents initiates, work.There is none worthy of worship but Allah and the body, the Jewish people. I am the Messenger of Allah and God has no moral corruption, doubt. Malefactory words spread licentiouness discompose words which provoke words of belief. Words of the clerics invade words of the just. Snake words spread into lives of men . Jewish Muslim women encircle Europe. Masquerade encompasses the world has still to finish its course of wholesale destruction. La ilaha illa-llah returns. La ilaha illa-llah returns God. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 07:34:06 -0400 Reply-To: Allen Bramhall Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Allen Bramhall Subject: born in Chicago, 1942 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit on top of what Saddam can expect, midnight wasn't right. midnight was slightly dulled, angles of mercy being scented for the future. when the future arrived, its turmoil shrunk to bite-sized bits. the bitter president wanted reclining profits and enough time, pure time. an eminent question loosened one word from a stray phrase that had floated surreal bobbing as a popularity contest. there must be something here to lose, said the president. his contrary wavelength was strong in mirth. I am Saddam something something thru all eternal whatsis, proclaimed antagonism richly. richly is destiny trying to lasso particles while theory hasn't risen from bed, the birthplace of adjectives. resultant baggage is blues, as nifty as the parking space you remember fondly. those days, those pursed lips, those dalliances with verbs that moved. today, you listen in as headlines go to work. work will be a long day, even this Sabbath blunder. today we must be autumn and today we must rule inner expanses of yard work. today is a going concern, a ghost named Eddie. Eddie was human history, now he's just fucked up. the president is a retirement fund, and is really fucked as well. Saddam is a wholesome, whole grain sandwich, the mattress of a bettered world. someday language will hire us all. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 07:46:40 -0400 Reply-To: Allen Bramhall Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Allen Bramhall Subject: A.BACUS 2002 Translation Series MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit * from Dan Featherston: Recent & forthcoming from the 2002 A.BACUS Translation Series Now available: #143 Palingenesis, Friedrich Holderlin. Trns. Garrett Kalleberg. #144 Pitcher, Sami Baydar. Trns. Murat Nemet-Nejat. #145 Part 1 of a 2-part selection from Paul Blackburn's out-of-print Proensa: An Anthology of Troubadour Poetry, featuring poems by Guillem IX, Marcabru, Arnaut Daniel, & Peire Vidal. #146 Part 2 of a 2-part selection from Paul Blackburn's out-of-print Proensa: An Anthology of Troubadour Poetry, featuring poems by Raimbaut de Vaqueiras, Bertran de Born, The Monk of Montaudon, Peire Cardenal, & Anonymous. Issue includes George Economou's original bibliography & a selected bibliography of recent troubadour/troubairitz scholarship by Sarah Kay, professor of French & Occitan at Cambridge. #147 Love & The Turning Seasons: Poems from the Sanskrit Amarusataka. Trns. Andrew Schelling. Coming soon: #148 Culture Deceased: Selections from The Photo of the Greenhouse, Reina Maria Rodriguez. Trns, with an introduction, by Kristin Dykstra; includes interview with RMR by Rosa Alcala. #149 Two Poems from Enemy Rumor (1941), Jose Lezama Lima. Trns, with an introduction, by Roberto Tejada. #150 Impossibility of / Necessity of / Speech. Trns. from Russian, French, Spanish, Mandarin, Urdu, and Tigrean. Guest-edited by Leonard Schwartz. Includes a complete backlist of A.BACUS #1-150. One-year subscription (8 issues, plus any special issues): individual $30, institution $50. Please make check payable to 'Potes & Poets Press'. Non-US orders add 15% for shipping. Mail orders to: Dan Featherston PO Box 42696 Tucson, AZ 85733 Back issues of A.BACUS available via Small Press Distribution (www.spdbooks.org) Recent back issues: 135 Tsering Wangmo Dhompa, from In Writing the Names 136 John Olson, Water for Water: Prose Poems 137 Laynie Browne, from Acts of Levitation 138 Richard Deming, Somewhere Hereabouts Special Lisa Jarnot, Robert Duncan: The Ambassador From Venus, chapters 10 & 11 139 Jen Hofer & Melissa Dyne, Laws 140 Julie Cox, The Ghost Hour 141 William Keckler, Hokusai Touches a Meme Special Ivan Arguelles, Three for WTC 142 Andrew Joron, Constellations for Theremin Please visit the Potes & Poets website: www.potespoets.org Thank you, Dan Featherston & Rachel McCrystal ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 08:16:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Perelman's interview In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 2:45 PM -0800 10/5/02, Andrew Rathmann wrote: >... > The President does not care that college teachers ridicule him: he >and the rest of the governmental elite know that academics occupy an >institutional niche and that most of their activity is determined by >institutional considerations. ... the president doesn't care about most things, it seems, other than the interests of big business. however, the corporatization of the academy and the attacks on affirmative action in universities, the weakening of the status of tenure and the increased use of adjunct labor in the wake of books from the 1980s like Tenured Radicals, etc., as well as the federal waiving of the mandatory age of retirement for profs do seem to me like direct responses to the threats posed by the academic left to the government. -- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 01:38:45 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: the Big lie....RE: H=U=M=A=N MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sharon is well known to have been involved with a massacre of thousands of unarmed Palestinians: I'm not promoting hate and maybe nor is Baraka. He is questioning: he is pointing things out: and I dont have to incite: people in Italy are already "incited" and people in Australia and in England and here and even inside the US and many other countries are protesting these things, investors are pulling out of the US for the East and Europe...(even Jewish people I have heard talk against Israel) it is not hate it is what is the best thing to do. Israel and the US could negotiate and talk but THEY are the countries (the Govts I mean) who are the aggressors (they SHOULD negotiate but they are bent on WAR and DEATH of people PEOPLE PEOPLE PEOPLE. HUMANS! Harry, that's what people are they are; THEY ARE H=U=M=A=N=S : flesh and blood, learn those words at least: learn the word "human", its not very long but its big...you Nudel must live obsessed with your right wing views and probably your own hatreds: nothing will come of the dreams of "the chosen people" that the South Africans also had (there was always a lot of cooperation between racist South Africa and Israel)...Israel and US Imperialism are dreams going very wrong: the only thing the US has are guns: and guns can be copied very easily: slowly the US will weaken and collapse into the seething pit of it's own corruption. Unless the people take note of such as Amiri Baraka and others who know the corruption: the huge investments in weapons is obscene while poeple die of hunger in their thousands every week thruughout the world. THAT is violence: THAT is evil. EVIL! And in Afghanistan after all the bombing there has been about zero progress with women still wearing burkas and being put into jail and the leader has to be followed every where by the secret police (US) and the place flowing with the rejuvenescence of the drug trade and mines are everywhere for children and others to be maimed by...wherever the US goes with its guns and weapons death and destruction and backwardness result. Thank God China has kept the US out. The US will never mess with China. If they did they would actually have to have a real war...not this gutless bombing of weak countries and the killing of women and children and anyone else as they always do. You are obviously very poorly read in political matters. Richard Taylor. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "richard.tylr" Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2002 10:06 PM Subject: Re: the Big lie.... > inciting violence, promoting hate and telling deliberate lies helps no > one...harry > > On Sun, 6 Oct 2002 15:30:47 +1300 "richard.tylr" > wrote: > > > There's a lot of confusion and misinformation > > on both "sides" it doesnt mean > > the Mosad are/werenot involved. Israel's > > history of pre-emptive strikes and > > its present policy of driving the palestinians > > out is onot condicive to > > confidence in them especially with Sharon in > > charge. It _looks_ very musch > > like a jack up rom he satrt or maye it s was > > planned in the days of G Bush > > senior...who knows? But if Israel continues > > and the US continue this > > fascistic path then people willl have to > > organise massive protests on th > > streets, strikes, even riots or ultimately > > bombings: any means to weaken the > > imperialists: we should be supporting the > > strike on the water fornt in the > > US and oter mas s movements of the people. Also > > we need to be more outspoken > > in defenceof the Palestinians. Baraka at least > > has courage. Richard Taylor > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Harry Nudel" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 10:03 PM > > Subject: the Big lie.... > > > > > > > it's not worth going thru P. Herron's list > > of l...l..l..but i'd like to > > just > > > target the two assertions in the Baraka > > rant... > > > > > > 1) 5 Israelis were filming W.T.C...who > > who whoooo...the Mossad who > > had > > > just perpetrated the greatest hoax in human > > history after the J.C. > > > affair..another Jewish counterintelpro > > success....send at 4:30 that > > aft...5 > > > young men to film the results??? the > > wreckage???the evidence of their > > > deed????wow hi-tech & smart besides... > > > > > > 2) 4,000 Israeli workers didn't show up > > for work at W.T.C...which > > becomes > > > that the Israeli Embassy after naming the > > Israeli dead...under a > > > hundred...says that 4,000 Isrealis worked in > > the immediate area...which is > > > quite possible since i work in the immediate > > area...which i assume is > > below > > > 14th ST...there are many Israeli owned > > shoe/fash biz...which has become a > > > niche market for talented Israelis with such > > a small back home base...they > > > prob. didn't open up...since ALMOST NO SHOPS > > opened in Lower Manhattan > > that > > > day..including yours truly... > > > > > > The big lie is alive and well....the > > poetic > > > community....marginal...irrelevant...lower to > > lower middle > > > class...semi-brite...is its perfect breeding > > ground...as are the theories > > of > > > po that have come out it recently...you sow > > what you reap in...DRn. > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 09:29:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Broder Subject: Ear Inn World AIDS Day Reading MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit World AIDS Day is an annual observance on December 1. At the Ear Inn, we do a World AIDS Day Reading on the closest Saturday. This year, it's November 30. Over the years, our annual reading has become a community observance. Poets and writers who care about AIDS are invited to come to the Ear Inn and join in the reading. If we have an overwhelming response, we will have to limit contributions to one poem of one page or less. If we have a more modest response, we can afford to let each person read 2-3 poems. This reading is not about high-profile name recognition. It's about members of the community-the poetry community, the AIDS community, affected communities, anyone who cares for any reason-to come together and observe. Please contact me (back channel) if you would like to join the list of readers for World AIDS Day at the Ear Inn this year. For more info, contact Michael Broder at earinnpoetry@nyc.rr.com or visit our Web site: http://home.nyc.rr.com/earinnreadings Yours, Michael ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 07:25:28 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Francis Raven Subject: a collaborative sonnet by Francis Raven and Jeff Bacon Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed if without winter, the plaster pupil gilds the cloudy key become blemished brand burning pulse in text’s naïve porous gill; flat Braille still scratching the rain slighted hand. Practicing bees knead honey as they breed. Moon winks, listens, palms the handshake bribe; map stain tryst, or where the burnt coffee peed on new Nikes asking you to subscribe. Wisdom, as hard as…Druid tied to oak standing under the faltering fable. The treason untried teeth tickling smoke from fumbling ashtray’s first folding table. Line of city’s swords, still unfit to steal, not onion, but don’t grate pith with the peel. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 08:17:50 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: bliff-free hope or crapful nap MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Dear Nick Piombino, And thank you for responding to me... The quote isn't augie's, it's mine, from a mini-essay I wrote for him about his work with avatars and personas... It's interesting that you bring up Sept 11 in the context of this adorno snippet, as in reading it I kept thinking: hmmm, perhaps we should replace auschwitz with nine-one-one... Yes, there's hope, of course: even in adorno's paradox, i think, one can find some hope...(it's somewhere in the spaces between the two positions adorno outlines, and also in the realization that it's not always dual, living...) I've had bliss since Sept 11, personally (I experience moments of happiness despite it all), but no longer feel as comfortable politically with my country as I was a few years ago...This doesn't neccessarily get rid of the bliss, but it does make one wary...Sometimes there's a separation between the political and the personal, and sometimes there isn't... I believe a poet has this responsibility toward politics: the poet should embody in living all the ethics she believes in...if the poet feels the world would go better one way, the poet lives it...despite outside protestation...so, yes, I read not only the quote, but some of the adorno (I recognize the quote)...I just wanted to zero in on that paradox, because it seemed to offer no solution...which, in a world after auschwitz, in the context of adorno's time, yes, that was quite apt....it's up to us to decide whether it's apt after Sept 11... bliss to you (& i've always enjoyed your work) lewis ===== http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html meditation, net art, poeisis: blog http://lewislacook.blogspot.com/ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 14:40:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: Virginia As The Arsonist's Daughter Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed all pretties fall into the deep, frenzy got the rent a quick stupid glove could certainly reach for the gun itself Dead? - Hardly - we just let up a little. the rifle would like one hell of a pistol a big fire did follow him and then farmland cut all around him the brick wall socked in his pocket the courthouse was a wafer on his tongue Athletics hail into his chair farther down, bounce-soft was gone too the sun sucks blood (it wasn't a big fire) Jeff was limestone & la pluie qui marche I tiptoed birdlike, her price like a crystal the depth fed up with Thy service, all the years did not come any more more money in his pocket & the sun had washed away the moon looks best in profile, the nasty thing went with my strength sporting the cracks through all this rain Virginia in his left hand her hand was waning now seventeen-hundred in the hand the morning sun kissed his five-fourteen Just a fire and he waited, he wanted fourteen _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 13:48:13 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: Perelman's interview In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable well, from today's ~ny times book review~, p. 15, sven birkerts's review of william gaddis's final novel, ~agap=E9 agape~: "Reading this, and reading the new book by Harold Bloom celebrating the cult of genius, I wonder if we might not be seeing signs of revolt against the long dominance of 'theory' in the literary arena, an attempt (no doubt doomed) to return the artist to mythic centrality and to reinvigorate old assumptions about hierarchies of excellence." this what you have in mind, andy?... not me, brother... but maria's point really is to the point: if you believe that academe is irrelevant to literary-poetic culture---or should be---you may miss the way believing so plays into the hands of bush culture... the ultra-right wing of the republican party will, on the one hand, dismiss as irrelevant (and irreponsible) all that goes on in the humanities, and on the other hand, do their utmost to subvert same... while (as we know, most of us) waging war under the auspices of questionable verities (please not to be taken as a pro-hussein sentiment)... but the real threat to literary culture (etc.) might not be from right of center (i'm speaking as a leftist, yes, and with due regard for body bags)... as (the late) bill readings argued in ~the university in ruins~, the real threat may result from emptying the new university of excellence of any real ideological (nation-statist) fundamentals... transnational rhetoric and associated forms of materiality are real good at this, and at pretending there's nothing "out there" that can't be assimilated... as readings argued, this might be no worse than the former situation---but it's certainly no better... and it probably bodes poorly for anything that can't be appropriately quantified (or generate positive pr)... so whatever absurdities you may locate at mla, andy, they pale in comparison to the outright laugh riot of watching bill bennett types snorkeling such (yes, troubled) waters, hoping to surface with a handful of crackerjack prizes that they can then point to as evidence of postmodern torpitude, while the hits just keep on rolling... yep---as in "let's roll"... so: if there's some other institutional reality that you think poets would be better off exploiting, please---as a poet (tut), i'd love to hear more... or perhaps you believe that the bardic impulse doesn't require good eats to keep that inspiration alive & kicking? (we would in that event be well advised to wish each other well, and be on our ways)... or maybe there's already a poet-model that (whom) you'd point to as, well, sanguine, under the circumstances?... in which case, and in the interests of departing from what we all apparently know to be the case (you wrote "someone must say something fresh" etc.), i for one would honestly want to hear more, believe me... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 14:55:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: Virginia Takes Dictation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed that little one seemed the thing exhaust pipe looking up at him the wide open beneath a sign (DON'T SHOOT) live to see the station, see about waiting don't shoot me for his supper (the host was a capable snarl) nor bring icy midgets (they're bad for his cancer) cloth all of motion, the mountain convinced those animals copper-hued moon, you Cheyenne pipe-fitter, tells of your backwardness & your grandmother's retrogression this scheme contributed to immediate outlines, injunction as a claim triple ornament, disquietudes called out my name hinges were prudent, I insinuated, to let in phrenzy! to coax profligate! Such imputations from Virginia's lips! as though they were the cues for salaried work! -Ferdinand and Isabella were nothing more than miserly coupon clippers I like how yet is read as yes, her residence a loose cast a throbsome thirty years engaged (vanish out a vain frontispiece) in suitable revelations at the first instance of her carving-knife Virginia's drapery a higher triumph with every successive Sabbath but I say, "Let's not have a contest to see whose dead makes a higher market-place ignominy has many of your character traits| stack." _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 18:21:27 -0230 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K.Angelo Hehir" Subject: Re: Ron Silliman - 3 NYC Readings in two days Comments: To: ron.silliman@gte.net In-Reply-To: <000101c26c61$9915de90$6306c143@Dell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII can i get some more info on this launch? a strange mix methinks. thanks, kevin H. On Sat, 5 Oct 2002, Ron wrote: > I will be giving three readings in two days in New York City this month: > > October 15, 2002 at 8:00 pm, New School, Tishman Auditorium at 66 West > 12th St., NYC. Free. > > Short Fuse Launch Reading featuring Simon Armitage, Charles Bernstein, > Glyn Maxwell, Bob Holman, Patricia Smith, Ron Silliman, Willie Perdomo, ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 23:16:17 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: 'the books'2 (apologetically cross-posted) Comments: To: "BRITISH-POETS@JISCMAIL.AC.UK" Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable things not worth keeping announce * * * Chapter 2 : The Legacy of =8CThe Books=B9 the second in a series of 10 (subscription only) publications NB - subscriptions can still be made Each chapter is produced in the same square format (20cm x 20cm) and in full colour throughout - 24pp featuring 10 composed double-page spreads building towards a 240pp full-colour artwork. 'the books' presents a continuous narrative that weaves documentation and fiction into a radical version, not a conclusion, of =8CThe Books=B9 project. We=B9re working with the conversations we like to imagine between artists=B9 books, graphic novels/poems and contemporary poetics. for more on the source installations / performances and objects 'the books' go to http://www.thingsnotworthkeeping.com/description.html for more info on subscribing e-mail thebooks@thingsnotworthkeeping.com love and love cris ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 18:56:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Jane Sprague Subject: virus e-mails MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have returned from a business trip to discover that a virus is = rampaging an old e-mail account of mine. If you receive any strange = e-mails with an attachment , or any e-mails from my old account = seanjane@clarityconnect.com DO NOT OPEN IT!!! IT IS A VIRUS!! This virus = goes through the e-mail address book and sends itself out in wily ways. = If you have McAffee anti-virus software, it seems to be able to disable = the settings and continue to send itself out. I am very sorry for this = and I hope that nothing like this comes your way. The virus has the = words "KLEZ" in it. Best of luck, Jane ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 19:03:22 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jane Sprague Subject: virus MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry, meant to send this to the moderator...my apologies, trying to = trouble shoot and this thing is wreaking all kinds of havoc... best, Jane ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 16:14:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: the hand that commits the most) In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v546) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable the hand that commits the most I sit and those that would have come swim past a nobody morse codes. there is harm droppings against the wall and those blue screams=20 surround arithmetic beforehands. it is worth noting not in any order: turquoise manners, deafening=20 glass, and those tiny humming condolence(s) regulated in tropical=20 pastels between stilled yellows and mechanical joy. it=92s vowel time now and my opponents arrive - we form exploding = tongues=20 ruts. a contortionist shifts red, the light backs up, an engine glares. the sea crumbles dawn on the base labored machine. hard known tips crumble in consequence. I notice tumbling down, history in confetti - my self at half mast, or=20= when one is indecisive in the advances of lawn care. upon approaching the sea I think carefully and then before. there is harbored in a room not taken random ticks stilled between=20 effect and pocket rejoinders. off color sights arrive in their pointed side lock feelings, the=20 margins sit and I sit in the margins. we envelope blank falls just out of amassing cache of unassigned sin.=20 sodomy lights my cathode-ray, I pass the jury to exit footage in the=20 cause and effect sweep - "what we have is form . . ."= ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 19:26:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joshua Berlow Subject: My favorite of Jim Behrle's 100 Sonnets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: Quoted-printable 46. DON=92T MOVE AND NO ONE GETS HURT HEY I SAW THAT, SLICK YOU FUCKING MOVED -- Joshua Berlow's Website: http://www.joshuaberlow.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 00:24:07 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lawrence Upton Subject: Writers Forum Information MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is an invitation from Adrian Clarke and Lawrence Upton to join "WFInformation", an emailing list established following the death of Bob Cobbing. WFInformation will inform you of (1) New publications, and availability of existing publications, from Writers Forum (2) Dates and locations of WF Workshops [WF Information replaces the postal notifications which have been sent previously] (3) Other WF activities and events related to the life and work of Bob Cobbing Simply send a blank email message to WFInfo-subscribe@topica.com. Topica will reply to you and you must then reply to them. (This is a device to ensure you cannot be signed up by someone else as a terribly amusing joke.) Sending an "empty" reply will do - full details are sent to you in Topica's initial response Apologies for duplication by similar or identical versions of this note. Initial mailings will undoubtedly duplicate in some cases during the first day Adrian Clarke Lawrence Upton ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 18:30:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: subrosa@SPEAKEASY.ORG Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: binary Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 THE FLATTENED MISSIVE hyper extended pharmaceutical elaborations. the slinky delinquishment(sic) appeased. consider the dimension when frothing the poisoned flounce. equate the rumpled partition to its opposing hilt. the coffee bean undressed. a smooth allowance toward an accrued spittoon. a breeze filled day. the puncture found at window’s edge. where words fall off and plummet. or ground up mathematics. rendered lifeless. food stock for the lesser human. lesser? no triangulation achieved begins to distinguish the angle’s perfect attainment. gross overage surrounds us. the crank undulating near the furnace is hiss. a thermal affluence. hawk eyed altitudes find molecular bumping, elemental thumping, atomic humping. street sign logistics. a fanciful plague of niceties caricatured by hurled doilies of pornography. a rubber acquaintance. the drivel of routine alcoholism. the mounting purpose gelled to unknown certainties - an impossibility, standing in front of the thrift store. waiting for buses in! the wind. a cajoling, a clarity of juniper. the sestina of brazilian herbs. aero liners shut down. we are scrutinised by terror. a deliberate observation slept and slipped through a slot. a tenderness whirling unnamed. poor poor rhapsodic adhesive. her tone arm lightly. the anticipation of sonic erotica. lips sprayed with the captured breath of the now dead. leather binds keep her in place, in position. the speakers mounted on the ceiling of the gymnasium blare out the weather. weaved into every book is a hair from the top of the head. love is that much. excruciating. a thimbleful can eliminate the world. radio appendage tuning in the azure of this uglier dictionary. it is an elaborate sojourn with built-in acquaintance, something stealthy, and socially quirky. the pool table is a directional disappointment. a scrimmage of fathoms sporting around on your campus. a flag happy curmudgeon dribbles the flecks slowly from his once tightly clenched hand. what restrains a super power after guilt has lost its charm. the sleek exterior of splayed softness. a dixie cup dispenser of oblivion, little morsels, little meds. ablutions of the mind as an egregious religious ritual. as a window sill is a place for elbows, so should a beach be a horizontal wonderment without the diesel fumes of military aggression. an ultimate reprise written into historical text. some twist, some wisdom-strap holding things in place. not as is, but what will! the future of coagulation is calm entropy. it’s true, spikes of activity are unstoppable. only out of chaos does order emerge, not the other way around. the new poster is a phoneme. the new couch is a bubble. war, my dearest, is the open air and how it occurs. how is a wolf to cease hunting? it cannot. no animal is better or less enlightened than any other. horticulture is a neighborhood of sleeping. wake your dreams. johnny b. goodie. the pleasure of jump ness. bridge of thwack. if it digits, will it gidgets? gadgets? targets? the quiver shakes the very area. an unplugged brain is more dangerous than any taxpayer. I am flurries. the zeal of atonement. try to kill not or try something different for once. newspapers are new no more. same old same old. blood everywhere and then the clean up. the herald, the mounted crown of mountain laurel, meet the solipsistic era. same as the old solipsistic era. the curmudgeon apostrophe dangles over the still water of wafers. almost derisive this flattened missive attuned to the crisp frequency of obliteration. cough, cough. the plumage decorates the inner lung of alfonso. neon fiancee of squeegee brothel. autumnal barks down the block, twig infested columns lean into dark. the yo-yo, the yum-yum, the ping pong of dust. from me to you, from me to you, from me to you, oops the shiver of non obstructed valence. a hover buoyant reality. you will harness vitriol for generating an appliance. a kite too. a benjamin, a franklin. one hundred assumptions painted in dollar green ink. a puzzle of offerings. a channel of faucets. a sung pulley of adroit varsity sportsters. a found subscription of literary rareness. from vignettes to new jersey. the overage is destined for somewhere between pause and off. off now. off now gone. off now gone bye. see ya. a solipsistic devil slips through your destiny. there you go. a repetition of utterance. the utter silence of repeating it. it deletes itself. zaumist children chalk drawing in the corner. appeal of shiny commercials to the smaller digits. you have learned how to place your silverware. now you fidget over your spare change. gazing, wafting, high mirth in a can. those pencil sketches of old new york. pre nines, pre elevens. pre teens have lessened for now their crazy rage, but wait. but wilt. but wont you shake the nascent bones and ‘lectric akimbo production of how all knowledge alights on the forehead of those in preparation of sudden termination. kinda nuclear. kinda spiritual. addendum the brutality is floundering as excessive ad campaigns lose their sting and vitality. a beautifully proportioned finch delicately immersed in a vat of albumen. and war, my dear watson, has become a human necessity. as with current musical trends, they too find the power of a miracle a mere bonus feature. available, attainable. not knowing the tsunami of applause, martha seeks moisture, as martha is anyone. logging on is our financial privilege, is our culture of dominance. as we achieve dominion over it, it will be our undoing. and then the return of the trance and its unstable politic. the means by which we meander, by which we become blind but to the singularly offered beam of light. and this intended beam is not a discovery, not a found brilliance, but the fabrication of the temporary ability to mute brain functions. to suspend mentality. to freeze logic. to under whelm the nervous empire. how else the beast to sleep. how else this program delete. and war is the knowing, the depth of plunge. 2002. Nico Vassilakis ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 20:34:31 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MWP Subject: books that one or more can read In-Reply-To: <20021006151750.60035.qmail@web10705.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I have a big bunch of books for sale on Yahoo and Ebay auctions right now in case anybody is interested. The topics range far and wide, from the sublime to the ridiculous and everything in between. Bid early, bid often, and if you mention the Poetics list at end of auction I will give you a 5% discount! If you don't see anything you want this time, try again in a few days when I will be posting more. I expect to have several hundred books up for sale this month at prices that beat any bookseller's! I'm clearing out my constipated storage space, so everything must GO! GO! GO! YAHOO AUCTIONS user.auctions.yahoo.com/user/markpxxxxx EBAY AUCTIONS cgi6.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewListedItems&userid=mpalmer@jps.net&in clude=0&since=-1&sort=2&rows=25 This is a onetime announcement. Thanks. -m ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 20:38:31 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MWP Subject: Re: books that one or more can read In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 10/6/02 8:34 PM, MWP at mpalmer@JPS.NET wrote: > I have a big bunch of books for sale on Yahoo and Ebay auctions right now in > case anybody is interested. The topics range far and wide, from the sublime > to the ridiculous and everything in between. Bid early, bid often, and if > you mention the Poetics list at end of auction I will give you a 5% > discount! > > If you don't see anything you want this time, try again in a few days when I > will be posting more. I expect to have several hundred books up for sale > this month at prices that beat any bookseller's! I'm clearing out my > constipated storage space, so everything must GO! GO! GO! > > YAHOO AUCTIONS > user.auctions.yahoo.com/user/markpxxxxx > > EBAY AUCTIONS > cgi6.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewListedItems&userid=mpalmer@jps.net&in > clude=0&since=-1&sort=2&rows=25 > > > This is a onetime announcement. Thanks. > > -m Sorry, don't know why the links don't work. Please just cut and paste to get to where you need to be. Or let me try again: YAHOO AUCTIONS http://user.auctions.yahoo.com/user/markpxxxxx EBAY AUCTIONS http://cgi6.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewListedItems&userid=mpalmer@jps .net&include=0&since=-1&sort=2&rows=25 -m ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 21:05:39 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: three revolutions and a plastic theory In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v546) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable three revolutions and a plastic theory I tell confused pencil ego misfit road shows, shatter it. lust the=20 soul. do the I do It is a new direction to change ~ the truth, your=20 work is for someone else halfway out of heat. 2 square forward three=20 revolutions and unnatural breakthroughs into fantasy with the uttermost=20= sigh of caring, there we will begin with images, with humor, with=20 freedom, with bits of plastic theory backward(s) . . . . . . destroy=20 ourselves in a series of concept sequence parallels with the questions=20= transmitted into the future, Without a system of society or error along=20= for the ride which is revolution for the present - Nothing can put the=20= old maxim of caring so perceive as in the infinitive: "honeyed ambush=20 pronunciation inverse heart breakthroughs joke is the body's logical=20 step to Truth." a truth that can cure the social order incapable of=20 government. Truth that can never be a system, the one to destroy at=20 tomorrows boundaries. put principle for people in the I do you do It is=20= a social fabric what should =93I=94 do that is doing dangerous new = ideas. =20 replenish inverse structural desires not high time replacement parts,=20 but with a new ideas, put money where numerous elections are the=20 vanguard of organized irresponsibly or nothing other than a face of=20 used future condoms. You shall know the senses of revolution, The first=20= duty of society is to bed. a total economic conceptions. do not do=20 language alone. revolution is The first duty of defending those that=20 do, it is the modern astronomers of space that slices revolutionary=20 time and democracy kites, into all new languages of the senses, into=20 triangles transmitted immersion in part-objects that when transformed,=20= perform The most heroic word infinitive honeyed ambush pronunciation=20 inverse heart structural mob earrings desire jelly-smear breakthroughs=20= with a expression of the idea of balance and space like a new social=20 future. let us say what can stand by means of truth, and avoid mode=20 directions, we demand total economic conception for our dreams into a=20= new high comprehension of people in motion; it can cure the soul, do=20 fuzzy immersion in the understanding of heat 2 square forward three=20 revolutions and Apparently a discussion in human being context Truth=20 that can never be a slave, so avoid the question of master ideas of=20 society, which is nothing but soul blasphemies. Be true to change , ~=20= the uttermost revolution to space and Time is to destroy tomorrows=20 boundaries, do motion lust revolution in plastic theory bewilderment,=20= create dangerous new ideas plaster dreams, that Throw out convincing=20 dangerous masters. This expresses ideas of heat 2 square forward=20 three revolutions is held at great cost breakthrough into the new=20 social future three revolutions and a plastic theory ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 17:40:22 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Salmon Subject: Baraka Poem. In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Would I be wrong in suggesting, there seems to be an assumption by both sides of this rather heated (and sometimes disappointingly personal) discussion that the 'voice' in the poem is Baraka's. OR EVEN MORE FUNDAMENTALLY - that it has a voice and is not polyphonic. It seems to me to slide unnervingly between conspiracy theory, prejudice and a whitey's on the moon (gil scott heron) stance - but it never stays in one camp for very long. Just a thought. Baraka is good at pushing buttons - last time I saw him (just post election) he had a poem that from memory went "You may call him Ralph Nader, I call him ralph traitor" or some such - As an outsider I can see how anti-bushness could drive you into the arms of what's-is-name the democrat, but surely Nader was about challenging 'them' - something the writer of the poem in discussion should support. But knee-jerk emotions get the best of the best of us. Don't they? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 17:50:52 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Salmon Subject: Baraka Poem. - oh and also... In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit And I meant to add - there are some interesting septmeber 11 pieces on Steve Earle's Jerusalem - recently out. Maybe a rebirth of vietnam poetry? (aparently he's got a book of short stories out too) Anyways couple of good songs - John Walker Blues is one. There's also an interesting intro to the disk on the sleeve where he talks about being the 'loneliest man in america' It's all kind of an anti-mindless-jingoism piece - refreshing in the face of other pop-rock responses. Dan Salmon ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 01:21:23 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: you MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII you don't know about this war. you have your bible with you and a lock of your girlfriend's hair. you have a picture of your family. you have a picture of the farmhouse. you carry these things around with you in a leather wallet. they're almost unreal and you hope they won't be left here when you die. smoke rises a hundred yards down the trench, part of the wall has caved in. you can smell fire. you dream at night, anything but this. you cry when no one's looking. you can't remember anything clearly, that's the worst of it. occasionally a scrap of conversation, something your father said. you remember the touch of your girlfriend and that last kiss. there's not much of your world left, and there's nothing here. you rise out of the trench, you rise. last night they were saying there's a bullet meant for each of us. too many men are already dead. you can't see skin without seeing the wounds, you know what's beneath the surface. you swear at the lieutenant who sent you out here, but you know that's what he's supposed to do. your canteen's already useless, the canvas torn, the aluminum punctured. you borrow one from the soldier next to you. he won't be needing it any more. sprays of dirt fly overhead as the shells come closer. you can hear screaming mixed with everything else. how can you prepare for the incision, the removal of the bullet, the attack comes but once, you're left in the trenches, you're cold, you smoke a cigarette. there's no energy in the letter from your girl, but it's all you have and it's already worn through, what are you going to do. the earth's in front of you, behind you - the trench opens, up and down the line, there are many others like you, and the sound is indescribable. you can't think and you hold on to the letter. you hear the sounds of bombs in the distance as aircraft fly overhead. you know someone will bring heavy artillery in, and there will be soldiers manning the guns just like yourself. you can't remember much about home, and the landscape here has disappeared - just blasted trees and raw earth. there's a stone farmhouse in the distance. these are the worst days, when the sky is dark and damp, when the mist falls, soaking everything. you smell lignite and mold. you don't think you're ever coming home. susanne graham === ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 01:38:01 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: i MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII i don't have the field, the space, to write, to rewrite, properly, to contain the words, ascertain the exigencies of the concepts, internalize them. this is writing on the margins of writing; this is writing on the move, writing on walls, the scrawl, the scribble - there's no time for anything else. this is the theory of the inscription, the cut, the incision. this is my life's work under the signs of illness and poverty. this is the begging for another month, another day, another hour. this is the moment of the last rite, unfulfilled promise. this is everything from the world already gone, it's gone ahead. i can say i've seen it passing by at high speed. i've almost caught up with it. there are times i sit, sometimes when i sleep, it's almost in my grasp. but it continues, the ontologies are radically different; there's no way the hand holds on, no way the eye sees, the ear hears. it's gone before i'm awake, before i have a chance to move, before i have a chance to stand, to write. it's gone before the next meal, gone before the worries of staying alive. there's not a day that i haven't felt ill for the past several months. there's not a day i haven't had shaking, slight thought, chills, but a reminder or remainder, always present, an uncontrollable shuddering. the writing and the reading proceed in pain; recently, they're taken over by a dull anger that things have to be this way. i'm waiting for the moment when everything breaks - when i can catch it, hold it in my hands, place it within the context of the book or essay, video or video-speech, the gestural movement of the arms, the fingers dancing on the keys, evanescent sounds. it's all the case, it's all the case of all of us, it distorts, crumbles, without lack of further evidence, financial stability; my theory is a theory of stress and poverty, the theory of rising painfully in the morning, crashing sleepless at night, imbecility of it all. at night i lie awake waiting to capture or entrap it, but as i've said repeatedly, it continues to elude me, playing with my consciousness, already exhausted, until it appears at the periphery of my vision or whispering to me, just for a second, an instant, and then it's gone, and there are the lyings-awake and walkabouts until it appears again, often within the same night, stuttering as the frames of a film stutter, as if there were continuity to my work, as if it could be held down into the form, taking on the semblance of the form, corrupting and distorting just on the verge of wakefulness into pain, the theory or essay or book, the coherent thought, the gesture fully carried through, the boy and girl with broken arms === ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 09:08:25 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lakey Teasdale Subject: Virginia Recalls Fire & MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Virginia Recalls Fire & Uncommon the reader the common tell them a little story: have this instant seen the scene a hot sun. marsh green & vast, vast spite & the rage dismays engaged age. uncommon spite and right. No. Wait within without and the ice the soul of splice the knot &/of ice. The soul uncommon, the banished returns and all nothing for some (one) thing Discomforted. comforts. Comforted, discomforts. San- guin- e- ous e- jected pro- jected grieves celebrates. cross over cross over divide divide confide confide the will & weight wait for the will. Colour the amber. Wait. Another is seen, unseen weight. Not. The scene found at the site, sight- reading ex- tempo- rised ex ni- hi-lo ex si- len- ci- o uncommon a common thread. Common divisions uncommon the silent response, silence. Toils forty-nine cubits: seven times seven crimson red coils encase: red velvet & amber within space within space. drone lamenta- tion provokes penetrates in- cites ignites: and/or Ordeal By: Fire & Ice spliced. Knots: a/the covenant fire &/or ice. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 09:04:59 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lakey Teasdale Subject: Virginia rose, a veritable rose Comments: To: "WRYTING-L : Writing and Theory across Disciplines" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Virginia rose, a veritable rose not unrestrained or despised, the arrogance of some and beg others not do not shoot but merely DO NOT PULL THE TRIGGER ON THAT GUN there are differences subtle and trivial as they might seem even if they aren't really visible to the naked eye. And forward never backward into the breach and joined the revolution. Quietly, if you recall, she actually never spoke beyond the established perimeters, broadened them, yes, even removed them in some instances, displaced: DON'T HEM HER IN. The frontispiece never toiled over, nurtured beyond the vanitas vanitatum colouring the day: never mind the long hot summer or the night kitchen, never mind insinuations of Grievous Bodily Harm based on an unfortunate incident with a carving-knife. Sir, do not underestimate the implications of concealed weapons revealed. Fire not a shot in the dark unless you know your target isn't moving. Not counting the stifled laughter, the velvet counter- pane shaking amongst the ermine trappings, each with a lining of silk, each gown white chiffon and every successive Sabbath heightened by the silver chalice and the wine. Oh! A woman of valour full of the ignominy of white and dry with a fruity bouquet knows her due and her traits descended in frenzy from the grandmother you call a mere retrogression. Sir, had you not noticed her temples? From generation unto generation the ice melts. In colours. The ice melts and spreads the colours wide from both sides into the backwardness you think so forward and shoves the forwardness into the breach. The scene was seen and held in abeyance. This is the shorthand of her long fingers. Her hands. And contested not. There was no contest, only the sealing of agreement between friends. Only the sealing of an agreement like fulfilment of the long engagement. Thirty years an engagement? Fie! Fie! The thirty years' war to end all but she rose from the trenches a rose. And conveys her kind regards to you as she begs you stack the ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 01:16:12 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: DINA mite Comments: To: 7-11@mail.ljudmila.org, ImitationPoetics@listserv.unc.edu, o-o@konf.lt, webartery@yahoogroups.com, syndicate@anart.no, _arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au, owner-realpoetik@scn.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DINA mite textperception #001 (excerpt) www.cultureanimal.com In an captivating constructs fervent, down in this sicily of the ascendancy, a resulted, resulted while enzyme--so resulted, that the fertile disciplines be a seemly one, because it mutiny-grandfathers implicitly preferences it--there officiated as sexton and apportion- digger in the churchyard, one Gabriel juridic. It by no Mariannes islands impossible that because a specific place their a sexton, and bale deposits by the emblems of mortality, struck he should be a morose and inspects man; your undertakers are the merriest fellows in the world; and I once had the expose of being on think of offspring with a air-pocket, who in cotton-wool antipathy, and off for advising, was as anchor and jocose a helper somber as brouhaha chirped out a airport-dated-while englishman, without a hitch in his land, or kale off a contemplations abcess calculable without tease for juicy. absolve apply these precedents the reveal, Gabriel juridic was an rate- contiguous, weekly-grained, erase somber--a morose and lonely specific place, who consorted with qualify but shift, and an captivating wicker detestable which fitted into his analyzed balloon to reduce blowback-- and who eyed each help moist, as it passed him by, with eventually a balloon scowl of malice and rate-familiarizes, as it was bay adorning without conceives something the kennel for. 'A helper before bi-monthly, one Christmas Eve, Gabriel shouldered his flushing, lighted his friend, and betook shift strait the captivating churchyard; for he had got a apportion plugged by line of corresponding source to lock up, and, conceives discourages theoretically, he thought it might indices his spirits, stammering, if he infertile on with his boiler at once. As he infertile his to increase, up the bigotry vaccinate, he extend the boycotts carry out to of the away fires gleam through the captivating casements, and jointly the emphasizes meow and the boycotts absences of diversion who were honey ow them; he fortune the bustling preparations for line of corresponding source day's cheer, and smelled the numerous savoury odours consequent thereupon, as they steamed up from the instantly spools in clouds. calf this was planet and wormwood the to go down of Gabriel Grub; and when groups of children bounded out of the houses, tripped meatballs the river of magusi, and were met, before they could faithful at the winged eleven, by join a earthquake ferment-headed helper rascals who crowded Nonable AM with them as they flocked belonged macroprocessor the properties in their Christmas games, Gabriel smiled grimly, and bethlehem the oil of his flushing with a firmer hypocritical, as he thought of measles, scarlet abalones, knot, whooping-conspired, and a contemplations inconceviable other sources of applicant showcase. 'In this force with piece of mail of idealizes, Gabriel strode glimpses, returning a compares, sullen beat the contemplations- humoured greetings of eventually of his neighbours as incommensurable and then passed him, decor he turned into the pessimist smash which led the churchyard. incommensurable, Gabriel had been looking emphasized reaching the pessimist smash, because it was, stopper speaking, a fertility, baguette, nile disagreeable, into which the townspeople assisted not to attract while go, urged in disabled nicaraguan, and when the join the lines was shining; auction, he was not a helper catholic ivy a to publish ballot accused out something jolly englishman skilled a help Christmas, in this discourages sanctuary which had been melancholia fibrous smash brouhaha since the brow of the captivating constructs, and the fact of the shaven-headed monks. As Gabriel walked on, and the surmise ability nearer, he advance it proceeded from a biscuit devaluates, who was peace glimpses, conclude one of the helper parties in the captivating vaccinate, and --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.393 / Virus Database: 223 - Release Date: 10/1/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 01:31:32 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: august highland phones michael rothenberg MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i just talked on the phone to michael rothenberg for over an hour i am in san diego and he is in san francisco michael is a wealth of knowledge he has a comprehensive perspective on the poetry of the 20th century his intellect synthesizes and organizes i learned more about poetry in my 1-hour phone conversation with michael than i ever learned in a university course he has a great gift a wonderful-sounding voice and he is very open as a person you want knowledge? you want some heart-to-heart? call michael rothenberg sincerely, august highland --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.393 / Virus Database: 223 - Release Date: 10/1/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 22:05:35 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: Baraka Poem. Have I left anyone out? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dan etal. Harry and Nick and Alan are people I respect although ok I'm laying into Harry a bit but he can take it....Harry is just coming from a different angle, his politics and mine collide....now I have only seen that poem by Baraka (havent read much else although I have an old book by him as Lee Roi Jones)...I dont see it as being quite as simplistic as you say: however its not eg like even the kind of poetry I mostly like: I think what makes it "good' if it is is the times and the social situation and so on ...that is when where and to whom it was written: I can guess that Baraka is an attention getter (but I dont see him as anti-semitic when he cools down)...as I am myself (I mean I am probably an attention getter)..as we all can be: I know he was arrested and jailed for inciting people to riot (appparently driving around in a car with a loud hailer inciting people to come out and riot!!) I incite people to think about the issues: (and people on this List either disagree with me or ignore me in droves!!) I've fired off my salvoes: Ralph Nader is probably a bourgeios (how do you spell that cursed word?!) liberal but better than the other lot...it makes sense to have a broad base, and I - although I would like to see some positive and permanent long term changes toward some kind of state that is _ in actuality _ ruled by the people (and all means of production) - I know that in the meantime we all have to live with reality of Bush and the main politics we are used to: that said we dont have to agree about whether or not to discuss Baraka and S11 and so on. Its been fairly heavily thrashed: but these are "heavy" times, for everyone, I simply dont want to see any more wars. And so on. Hilton O. knows more about these issues than me. As to Baraka's poetry as I say it seems to me a bit like some of Ginsberg's such as "America" - Ginsberg is good - but he doesnt interest me so much as a poet (as do the NY poets the Language poets etc etc etc)....although I suppose the point somewhat about Ginsberg is his poem is/was for the times and he asks why Vanzcetti had to die (parallels Baraka's refererence to the Rosenbergs) and so on: he was protesting as a homosexual and as a young white male and a poet and so on ...he is aware of anti-semitic America (and the anti-semitic world)...for its context a good poem and maybe we can see Baraka's in its context. And for some "dark" political poetry that is protestant (maybe not quite as strident) have look at some of Ed Dorn's work...well the one I know is best is "Abhorrences" ..... look I think that Nick etal are very concerned about these issues as i am but dont want to be "trapped" into the kind of stridency of distorting language that people can get into and I think a lot of people know that: I can see that too: and I'm probably more "angry with history" (Ashbery) than any individual.... but then its probably stupid getting angry...concerned is better; then act and not talk so much Richard. Or do both, or neither. Cant solve the world's problems: surprise! But Dan its that good you "inputted". Maybe we should get Baraka, Charles Bernstein, Nick Piombino, Harry Nudel, Arielle Greenberg, Aaron Beltz, Mohammed Ali, Sharon, Arafat, Saddam Hussein, John Walker (not NZs runner the other one) (by video if allowed), Patrick Herron, Ron Silliman, Alan Sondheim, Kent Jonhston etal, Kevin Killian, Wystan Curnow, Susan Schultz (and various other female writers of the approroiate ilk or kind), tom raworth, John Ashbery, Chris Stroffolino, Harold Bloom, Harold Pinter, some homeless guy from about 47th street NY, my mate Jim the Ant who hates "Theocracy", David Antin, Barret Watten, Bruce Andrews, Britney Spears, Colin Powell, Milosovich, John Travolta, Billly Graham, and a few others to debate the issue at a forum!! With heavy security for the opposing parties and Bibles, glossy mags, Korans, copies of the Language Theory and works by Kristeva and Susan Sontag and Derrida (maybe Sonntag herself), Perloff, Helen Vendler, the shades of Eliot and Pound, (and maybe Pope and Swift and Montainge and Dante and even Browning thrown in) and in person hopefully:Oliver Sacks, Richard Dawkins: with big scientific, and French and German Theoretical poetical Tomes (ranged against the entire works of Harold Bloom) at 20 paces... Richard Taylor. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Salmon" To: Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 5:40 PM Subject: Baraka Poem. > Would I be wrong in suggesting, there seems to be an assumption by both > sides of this rather heated (and sometimes disappointingly personal) > discussion that the 'voice' in the poem is Baraka's. OR EVEN MORE > FUNDAMENTALLY - that it has a voice and is not polyphonic. It seems to me to > slide unnervingly between conspiracy theory, prejudice and a whitey's on the > moon (gil scott heron) stance - but it never stays in one camp for very > long. Just a thought. > Baraka is good at pushing buttons - last time I saw him (just post election) > he had a poem that from memory went "You may call him Ralph Nader, I call > him ralph traitor" or some such - As an outsider I can see how anti-bushness > could drive you into the arms of what's-is-name the democrat, but surely > Nader was about challenging 'them' - something the writer of the poem in > discussion should support. But knee-jerk emotions get the best of the best > of us. Don't they? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 18:07:34 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jesse glass Subject: Call For Manuscripts--Cid Corman Issue of Modern Haiku MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Special Cid Corman Issue of Modern Haiku A special issue of Modern Haiku devoted to the work, life and influence = of Cid Corman is being planned for publication in the summer of 2003. You are invited to submit essays of up to 2000 words on some aspect of = Corman=92s poetry. Topics could include: Corman=92s aesthetics as embodied in his work. Corman as the quintessential "outsider" in contemporary poetry. Corman as publisher. Corman as critic. Corman as translator of haibun and haiku. Corman=92s translation of Oku No Hosomichi. Etc. Queries on additional topics are welcome. Memoirs, appreciations, and poems are also welcome. Deadline : March 1st, 2003. Submissions by either snail mail or e-mail (snail mail preferred) to: Modern Haiku Lee Gurga, editor Box 68 Lincoln Il. 62656 USA. gurga@ccaonline.com=20 Please pass the word! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 04:50:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: ZIP CODES Comments: cc: "arc.hive" <_arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au>, cupcake kaleidoscope , Renee , rhizome , wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii 1.) Moving through the volume of flutes, a column of location, pure differential, spotted all over. They say these moles on the nights' skin are stars, or hidden by sausage-casing clouds; diffident or diffuse, unaminous in density, each point on a web does not equal each point except in our heads. Now a steel dusk or its negation slides over us. We won't be stirred, a tome of tone-deaf matrices tamps down the dawn, securing over our heads the motion they make from religion, its diligent core: leave me here, darling, I can't go on, I always go on about, the particulars collapsed into one fibrous obstruction, and then they petal our heads with children's mouths. Every workstation on the network ===== http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html meditation, net art, poeisis: blog http://lewislacook.blogspot.com/ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 08:03:29 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Re: ZIP CODES MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/7/02 7:51:15 AM, llacook@YAHOO.COM writes: << 1.) Moving through the volume of flutes, a column of location, pure differential, spotted all over. They say these moles on the nights' skin are stars, or hidden by sausage-casing clouds; diffident or diffuse, unaminous in density, each point on a web does not equal each point except in our heads. Now a steel dusk or its negation slides over us. We won't be stirred, a tome of tone-deaf matrices tamps down the dawn, securing over our heads the motion they make from religion, its diligent core: leave me here, darling, I can't go on, I always go on about, the particulars collapsed into one fibrous obstruction, and then they petal our heads with children's mouths. Every workstation on the network >> Nice one, Lewis. Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com KojaPress.com Amazon.com BarnesandNoble.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 08:05:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: baraka In-Reply-To: <01be01c26d91$1238e800$df1886d4@overgrowngarden> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" i just got this forwarded from another source; it sheds some light on the matter: CounterPunch October 3, 2002 Amiri Baraka's Somebody Blew Up America Poetry as Treason? by KURT NIMMO It seems you not only have to be careful what you say, as White House spokesman Ari Fleischer warned last year, but also what you write, especially if you are an African-American poet with a Muslim name and Marxist politics. On September 19, Amiri Baraka, an influential beat poet and founder of the Black Arts Repertory Theatre in Harlem, read a recent poem, "Somebody Blew Up America," at the 2002 Geraldine R. Dodge Poetry Festival at Waterloo Village in Stanhope, New Jersey. Note the following lines from the poem: Who knew the World Trade Center was gonna get bombed Who told 4000 Israeli workers at the Twin Towers To stay home that day Why did Sharon stay away? Since Baraka read his poem in September, popular news commentators and powerful political organizations have called for the revocation of his status as poet laureate of New Jersey, an honorary title which pays him a modest salary of $10,000 per year. Even though he wrote the poem last October, ten months before taking on the title as poet laureate, New Jersey Governor James E. McGreevey wants Baraka to resign and apologize. Obviously, McGreevey doesn't know Baraka too well. "Amiri Baraka ain't never been your Polite Negro Poet," writes Lee Bailey on EUR, a website covering black entertainment and culture. "So you have to wonder what the New Jersey powers-that-be were thinking when they named him Poet Laureate of NJ?" In fact, Baraka warned the governor something like this might happen. "I said, 'Governor, you're going to catch a lot of hell for this,'" Baraka told the New York Times. "He said, 'I don't care.' I said, 'If you don't care, I don't care.'" But the Anti-Defamation League does care and is leaning on McGreevey to get rid of Amiri Baraka. It's not so easy, however. Baraka was selected by a committee of poets and New Jersey state law gives the group sole power of selection. They can't oust Baraka, nor can the governor. Baraka will remain poet laureate until July, 2004 -- that is unless the state of New Jersey can find a way to strip him of the title. Regardless, Shai Goldstein of the ADL said his organization will put the pressure on the state's humanities and arts officials. The ideas expressed in Baraka's poem, according to William Davidson, ADL chairman-elect, are "directly linked with the anti-American xenophobia that caused such destruction and the murder of so many Americans." In other words, Baraka is not much better than Osama bin Laden. The New Jersey Council on the Arts said it "regrets" what Baraka chooses to think and write, and they don't see how he can remain poet laureate. Baraka, said the council members in a statement, is a "remarkable poet," but also said his poem is "deeply hurtful and painful." One has to wonder if the New Jersey Council on the Arts knows anything about poetry or literature in general, which is often "hurtful" and "painful." Of course, when the "hurt" and "pain" issues from powerful groups, such as the Anti-Defamation League, not even poets have an excuse. They must be purged for their unacceptable political beliefs. Before "everything changed," the media simply ignored poets, even when they said outrageous things, even things now considered "anti-American." Few people take poets seriously, even in New Jersey, home of famous poets, including Walt Whitman, William Carlos Williams, and Allen Ginsberg. Now, instead of ignoring poets, more than a few Americans condemn them, especially if the poets are Muslim and hold views contrary to the US government -- and particularly if those "anti-American" views are broadcast via the corporate media, from the reactionary Bill O'Reilly on Fox News to the pages of the New York Times. As for Baraka's assertion that both the US and Israeli government had prior knowledge of the September 11 attacks, there is clear, ample, and documented evidence they most certainly did. Consider the following: Newsbytes reported on September 27, 2001, that employees of Odigo, an instant messaging company in Herzliyya, Israel, received messages warning of the attacks two hours before they occurred. Alex Diamandis, vice president of sales and marketing for Odigo, confirmed that workers in Israeli received the messages. The story was subsequently carried by CNN and Ha'aretz in Israel. On August 11, 2001, US Navy Lt. Delmart "Mike" Vreeland, held in Toronto on U.S. fraud charges and claiming to be an officer in U.S. Naval intelligence, gave to Canadian authorities a sealed envelope. On September 14, 2001, Canadian jailers open Vreeland's sealed envelope to find a letter detailing attacks against the WTC and Pentagon. Source: The Toronto Star, Oct. 23, 2001, and Toronto Superior Court Records. On September 6-7, 2001, 4,744 put options (a speculation that stock prices will go down) are purchased on United Air Lines stock. There are only 396 call options (speculation that the stock will go up) at the same time. Many of the United Air Lines puts are purchased through Deutschebank/AB Brown, a firm managed until 1998 by the current Executive Director of the CIA, A.B. "Buzzy" Krongard. This is reported in The New York Times and The Wall Street Journal. In June, 2001, German intelligence, the BND, warns the CIA and Israel that Middle Eastern terrorists are "planning to hijack commercial aircraft to use as weapons to attack important symbols of American and Israeli culture." The story was reported by Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, September 14, 2001. During the summer of 2001, Jordanian intelligence intercepts a communication indicating attacks are planned on the WTC. The message is relayed to Washington. Reported by John K. Cooley of ABC and published in The International Herald Tribune on May 21, 2002. Summer 2001. Russian intelligence notifies the CIA that 25 terrorist pilots have been specifically training for missions involving hijacked airliners. Reported by Izvestia. On July 26, 2001, CBS News reports that John Ashcroft has stopped flying commercial airlines due a threat assessment. In August, 2001, Russian President Vladimir Putin orders Russian intelligence to warn the U.S. government "in the strongest possible terms" of imminent attacks on airports and government buildings. Source: MSNBC interview with Putin, September 15. Also in August, 2001, Dubya receives classified intelligence briefings at his Crawford, Texas, ranch indicating that Osama bin Laden might be planning to hijack commercial airliners. Reported by CBS News and CNN, May 15, 2001. August through September, 2001. French intelligence services warn the FBI of imminent attacks. These are ignored. Reported by AP, May 21, 2002. In the week prior to September 11, a caller to a Cayman Islands radio talk show gave several warnings of an imminent attack on the U.S. by bin Laden. Reported by MSNBC on September 16. On May 31, 2002, FBI Agent Robert Wright holds a press conference at the National Press Club describing his lawsuit against the FBI for deliberately curtailing investigations that might have prevented the 9/11 attacks. He uses words like "prevented," "thwarted," "obstructed," "threatened," "intimidated," and "retaliation" to describe the actions of his superiors in blocking his attempts to shut off money flows to Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups. Source: the C-SPAN website. (The above information provided by Jeff Chelton of the Law Party.) None of this, of course, was mentioned in The New York Times article on Baraka, nor did the reactionary O'Reilly mention it when he questioned Baraka's motives or patriotism (and also called him a "pinhead") on Murdoch's Fox News. The New York Times, ADL, and O'Reilly are simply providing their state assigned service -- to engender public amnesia and divert attention from the truth surrounding 9/11 and the role played by US intelligence and the Dubya administration. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. Finally, the following lines of Amiri Baraka's poem should be considered far more inflammatory and indictable by the "powers-that-be" than any accusations of anti-Semitism put forward by the ADL: Who make money from war Who make dough from fear and lies Who want the world like it is Who want the world to be ruled by imperialism and national oppression and terror violence, and hunger and poverty. Kurt Nimmo is a photographer and multimedia developer in Las Cruces, New Mexico. He can be reached at: nimmo@zianet.com -- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 06:07:15 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: Re: A new journal In-Reply-To: <20021007115016.75807.qmail@web10707.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v546) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have been asked to forward this. kari ________________ An Ear for Poetry A new journal=97which has its eye (or ear) on what poet Rod Smith calls=20= =93Submodernism=94=97has emerged this Autumn on the international zine = scene.=20 =A0Van Gogh's Ear=97a non-profit biannual publication based in Paris, is = a=20 project founded by Ian Ayres, publisher and editor of the=20 journal=97combines the range and vitality of established poets with an=20= innovative new generation. =A0The special first (double) edition = features=20 200 pages of work from 81 poets representing the evolution of Beat=20 poetry into a cutting edge future: Joyce Carol Oates, John Updike,=20 Alice Notley, Tom Clark, Anne Waldman, Allen Ginsberg, Eileen Myles,=20 Ian Ayres, Diane di Prima, Robert Creeley, Amiri Baraka, Leslie=20 Scalapino, kari edwards, Susan Howe, John Wieners, Jean Valentine, Ted=20= Berrigan, Mary Burger, Peter Orlovsky, Michael McClure, Lawrence=20 Ferlinghetti, Andrei Codrescu, Frank O'Hara & more.... Poet Alice Notley, regarding the journal's title, says: "I like Van Gogh's Ear --- it seems to be listening in 'detachment', I mean the ear." =93I've received a contributor's copy of Van Gogh's Ear, a delightful and intriguing production and well worth the wait. =A0Your blend of newer & older writers makes for an interesting mix indeed; in its amplitude the issue resembles a very fine anthology, and a very handsome one at that.=94 =A0=97Tom Clark The format of the publication is 15x21cm, 200 pages, perfect-bound, with a 4-color matte cover. =A0Published by French Connection Press=20 (Paris). =A0 SPECIAL LAUNCH PRICE! $13.00 per copy (includes handling & postage) =97regular price: $15.00 + $3.50 handling & postage=97 Make checks (in U.S. dollars) out to: COP-Van Gogh=92s Ear Send to: Committee on Poetry, PO Box 582, Stuyvesant Station, New York, NY 10009, USA For inquiries only, contact Eric Ell=E9na, in Paris, at French = Connection=20 Press: frenchcx@club-internet.fr (or phone: 33 1 40 16 05 35) SUBMISSION GUIDELINES If you find our journal interesting enough for you to entrust your work=20= to it, we encourage you to subscribe. Our continued existence, and=20 continued ability to read your work, depends mainly on subscriptions.=20 We prefer contemporary, experimental, daring poetry of unusual forms,=20 language genius, and provocation. Submissions should be accompanied by=20= a return address, e-mail address or fax number, and a short biography.=20= Name and address of poet should appear on all pages. Copyright=20 automatically reverts back to the author after publication. Submit up=20 to 5 poems at a time. Previously published poems and simultaneous=20 submissions OK. Cover letter preferred; include SAE with IRCs. Time=20 between acceptance and publication is 6 months. Seldom comments on=20 rejections. Poems are circulated to an editorial board. Published=20 writers receive one free copy of the issue in which their work appears.=20= Spring submission deadline: January 1; Fall deadline is July 1.=20 Submissions should be addressed to: French Connection Press, 12 rue=20 Lamartine, 75009 Paris, France. PLEASE SUBSCRIBE You can susbscribe to Van Gogh=92s Ear and become a part of a growing=20 network of poets and readers around the world. We=92ll eliminate = shipping=20 and handling charges and send you a 2 issue subscription for $30.00=20 (U.S.)/30 =80 or a 4 issue subscription for only $60.00 (U.S.)/60 =80.=20= Please make United States checks out to: COP-Van Gogh=92s Ear, then send=20= to: Committee on Poetry-Van Gogh=92s Ear, P. O. Box 582, Stuyvesant=20 Station, New York, New York 10009, U.S.A. Checks in =80uros should be=20 made out to French Connection Press, then sent to French Connection=20 Press, 12 rue Lamartine, 75009 Paris, France. The continued existence of Van Gogh=92s Ear is dependent on = subscriptions=20 and contributions. Please donate and/or subscribe! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 09:25:45 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alicia Askenase Subject: This Fall at the Walt Whitman Arts Center MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This Friday, October 11, 2002 at 7:30 p.m. The Walt Whitman Arts Center presents a New Jersey State Council on the Arts Fellows Showcase Reading by two exceptional poets STEPHEN DUNN & PETER MURPHY This event is free and open to the public, and will be followed by an open reading w/live jazz, book signing, and reception. Participants of the open must sign in before the main event. and.... COMING soon to a Walt Whitman Center near you: FRIDAY, OCTOBER 25, 7:30 pm New Jersey State Council on the Arts Fellows Reading with Three Exceptional Fiction Writers: VIVIAN SLEE, DENNIS LOY JOHNSON and GWEN FLORIO FREE plus an OPEN READING/w live jazz/reception SATURDAY, OCTOBER 26 Poetry Workshop with KRISTIN PREVALETT 10 am to 12:30 pm Open registration, more info coming Call or email the Center $30/$20 members and then.... THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 7, 7:30 A reading by MICHAEL ONDAATJE and FANNY HOWE followed by a book signing and reception. $6/$4 Seniors/Students/Free to members ************************************************************************** A Trustee Fellow in the Arts and Distinguished Professor of Creative Writing at Richard Stockton State College, Dunn is the author of eleven collections of poetry, including Different Hours, for which he received the 2001 Pulitzer Prize for Poetry. His other titles include Loosestrife; New and Selected Poems, 1974-1994; Landscape at the End of the Century; and Between Angels. His most recent collection, Local Visitations, is forthcoming in 2003. Besides the Pulitzer Prize, his awards and grants include finalist for the National Book Critics Circle Award, 1996; Academy Award in Literature,1995, the James Wright Prize, 1993, The Iowa Review Subscribers Award, National Endowment for the Arts Creative Writing Fellowships, and Distinguished Artist Fellowship and Creative Writing Fellowships from the New Jersey State Council on the Arts. Peter Murphy 's poems have appeared in numerous journals including The Anglo-Welsh Review, The Atlanta Review, The New York Quarterly, TheNew York Times, Witness, and Yellow Silk. His essays and reviews have also been published in The American Book Review, The Corporation for Public Broadcasting Teachers' Digest, The Shakespeare Quarterly, The Teachers & Writers Guide to Frederick Douglass, World Order and elsewhere. He is a consultant to the Geraldine R. Dodge Foundation's poetry program and has been an educational advisor to five PBS television series on poetry including Fooling with Words with Bill Moyers. Murphy has received awards and fellowships for writing and teaching from The New Jersey State Council on the Arts, the Corporation of Yaddo, The Folger Shakespeare Library, The National Endowment for the Humanities, The Virginia Center for the Creative Arts, and the White House Commission on Presidential Scholars. Thank you for your support of the Walt Whitman literary programs. Alicia Askenase Literary Program Director For more information on the Center including membership benefits: www.waltwhitmancenter.org Emails: wwhitman@waltwhitmancenter.org or, askliterary@waltwhitmancenter.org 856-964-8300 856-964-2953 fax ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 09:42:02 -0400 Reply-To: Allen Bramhall Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Allen Bramhall Subject: Fw: the big lie MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: re: the big lie > 'Thank God China has kept the US out. The US will never mess with China. If > they did they would actually have to have a real war...not this gutless > bombing of weak countries and the killing of women and children and anyone > else as they always do. You are obviously very poorly read in political > matters. Richard Taylor.' > my god, richard ! holding up china as a role model....good lord, do you have _any_ idea at all what they have done to mongolia and tibet ? the millions dead and misplaced ? the thousands slaving in dentention camps ? state sponsored torture ? it was a poem about intolerance. it was a poem about how we all seem to have our own brand of intolerance. all of us. none of us escapes the brush with extinction. none. beth garrison ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 09:57:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: NJ Governor wants Baraka to Resign MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I just received this from The Connecticut Poet.=20 Vernon POETRY SLAMMED >=20 > New Jersey's governor wants the state's poet laureate to resign, says = Tanya=20 > Barrientos in the http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/4192176.htm >=20 > At issue are four lines in a lengthy poem entitled "Somebody Blew Up=20 > America" that well-known poet Amiri Baraka read at a poetry festival = on=20 > September 20, notes Barrientos. (You can read the entire poem > http://diversity.uoregon.edu/SomebodyBlewUpAmerica.htm) The=20 > lines repeat the widely discredited theory that Israel knew in advance = > about the September 11 plot and warned its citizens to avoid the World = > Trade Center on that day. Baraka was booed at the reading, but has=20 > defended the poem and refused to resign. >=20 > "Whether or not you agree or disagree with Amiri Baraka, this is not=20 > inconsistent with the way he likes to stir the pot," said West Chester = > University English professor Mike Peich, citing the 67-year-old = African=20 > American poet's long engagement with issues of race, religion and = politics.=20 > "Under the legal technicalities of the appointment, neither [New = Jersey=20 > Governor James] McGreevey nor the five-member committee of poets who=20 > appointed him to the two-year post can remove Baraka," Barrientos = adds.=20 >=20 > The poet defended his position at a press conference on Wednesday,=20 > Barrientos http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/4199832.htm reports in a = later > Inquirer article; the paper's editors call for Baraka to apologize in = an > (http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/4199783.htm) editorial published = Thursday.=20 >=20 > Barrientos: > http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/4192176.htm >=20 > poem full text: > http://diversity.uoregon.edu/SomebodyBlewUpAmerica.htm >=20 > Barrientos follow-up: > http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/4199832.htm >=20 > editorial: > http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/4199783.htm =20 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.389 / Virus Database: 220 - Release Date: 9/17/2002 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: ConnecticutPoet-unsubscribe@egroups.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 09:59:48 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Re: virus e-mails MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I receive the same virus several times a week when I receive postings to the List, but I've never received it from you. My guess is that more than one computer has it. Vernon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jane Sprague" To: Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2002 6:56 PM Subject: virus e-mails I have returned from a business trip to discover that a virus is rampaging an old e-mail account of mine. If you receive any strange e-mails with an attachment , or any e-mails from my old account seanjane@clarityconnect.com DO NOT OPEN IT!!! IT IS A VIRUS!! This virus goes through the e-mail address book and sends itself out in wily ways. If you have McAffee anti-virus software, it seems to be able to disable the settings and continue to send itself out. I am very sorry for this and I hope that nothing like this comes your way. The virus has the words "KLEZ" in it. Best of luck, Jane ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 10:02:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nick Piombino Subject: Adorno's Paradox Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In an earlier post I mistakenly ascribed the essay below to August Highland. Actually it was written by Lewis Lacook. Nick > NOTES FOR/ON AUGUST HIGHLAND > > 1) Multiplicity: a political concept: > democracy/socialism: out of > one, many: out of many, one. > > 2) Highland's work here may on one level be a parody > of the > entire concept of the "art movement;" inasmuch as the > postmodern > has been characterized as "the end of movements" and > an art era > beyond manifestos; Highland, in a bold conceptual > move, has > birthed an art movement, complete with varied > practitioners, from > just himself. > > 3)It is also primarily an internet art, using the > network as a > means of distribution. In its practice, it embodies > the network; > because Highland takes on for each work a different > persona > (though some workers in the movement are developing > full bodies > of work), he is populating each node in the network of > his > movement with an avatar. This is in contrast to Alan > Sondheim's > work, which operates for the most part with a fixed > set of agents > (Nikuko, Julu, Alan, Azure). > > 4) What we experience as readers of August Highland's > texts is a > layering of pastiche upon pastiche, collage on > collage, network > on network. The work is dense, disjunctive, > appropriating (it > seems) lines from technical manuals and dimestore > thrillers; its > what pulp would look like if someone dropped the genre > and it > shattered on impact (and if a book on network protocol > were also > already shattered there on the floor, mingling with > the freshly > fragmented pulp). This, coupled with the avatar-play > and its mode > of dissemination lends the work a rich veneer of > polyphony. Think > Schoenberg re-incarnated as DJ Spooky; serialism as a > mode of cut- > up. > > 5) Such play is deadly serious in its politics. As > Language > Poetry challenged traditional, "transparent" writing, > rendering > the sign opaque, Highland's movement renders > authorship opaque as > well. What if we found out that "Ron Silliman" was a > piece of > software? Would it change the work and our > relationship to the > work as readers? > > 6) But why challenge authorship in this way? Why > produce texts > like this at all? Why fabricate an art movement? > > One of the things I find most distressing about > the world of > twenty-first century poetics is this: one has favorite > poets, not > favorite poems. This persists even in the world of > experimental > poetics, where ego is routinely challenged, and the > whole idea of > subjectivity often slips under the microscope for > re-examination > (and, in finer moments, re-arrangement). Thinking such > as this > narrows down poetry considerably; it makes the poetry > "scene" all > too often just a smaller version of mainstream > publishing, with > its own small-scale Stephen Kings and John Grishams. > > But why should this matter to the READER of > experimental > poetics? Well, for one thing, it turns this "scene" > into exactly > what it was created in the beginning to counteract: a > market. > Literature once again becomes a commodity; its value > is assigned > to it by author-name, rather than quality of work. > There are a > plethora of respectable experimental literary journals > out there > that publish by invitation only; there's an even > larger number > that "accept submissions," but in reality only accept > work that > has proven market value. How can one justify this, in > a mode of > work that in theory practices openness and > experimentation? > > 7) This is why Highland's work is important. It > frustrates this > completely; by playing at the author-value level, it's > impossible > for those interested more in experimental poetry's > market value > to grasp it. Will Teddy Warburg ever appear in the > much-esteemed > (and excellent, as far as quality, but closed, as far > as > politics) Jacket? Will Conjunctions ever publish work > by Teddy? > It's doubtful, as such journals seem more concerned > with > perpetuating one particular historical period in > modern poetics > rather than furthering the field. > > So August's work flies in the face of such > thinking. Its > politics are utopian: the constructedness of its texts > is a > remnant of the old punk rock mentality, the idea that > "anyone can > do it, you should too." This work says: start your own > movement. > And many will heed that call. > _______________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 10:22:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: in search of a canadian poet laureate MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT ARE GOVERNMENT JOBS GOING FROM BAD TO VERSE? Jeff Mahoney The Hamilton Spectator Like many of you out there, I am hoping to become Canada's first poet laureate. If you haven't heard, the job was created just before Christmas when Parliament enacted a private member's bill, introduced by Liberal Senator Jerry Grafstein. The job description is open-ended. The poet can compose in any language he or she likes. Duties can be suggested to the poet, but the poet is free to dismiss such suggestions and choose what to do, if anything. The poet laureate can, but will not be forced to, compose verse for special occasions, such as a royal visit or the release of a new Jim Carrey movie. The job comes with office space, a small stipend and secretarial support, someone, I presume, to keep track of all the appointments and meetings and deadlines that the poet laureate doesn't have. Reading about this in all the papers, I got to thinking: Here's a job I could get used to. (If it seems a little cushy, remember it was proposed by the Senate where the motto is "Must nap.") Having very little experience at writing poetry, I figured I'd best familiarize myself with some tricks of the trade and knock off a quick body of verse. Write a few odes and sonnets, a smattering of cantos, a limerick just because I like the word Nantucket, an elegy or two, and maybe something for a specific occasion, though I don't have to. That's just the kind of self-starter poet laureate I am willing to be. I hired a poetry coach, Sandburg Miasma, who, being used to poets' wages, agreed to work for tins of tuna. Sandburg ran me through several exercises. First, I had to think up good comparisons that would really nail down an idea for the reader or listener. "OK," said Sandburg, "now give me a comparison that would express surprise and terror at the same time." "Ooh, I've got it," came my reply. "Like a deer caught in the headlights." Sandburg shook his head. "So cliché. Be the moth that flies 'away' from the flame. Try again." I thought, then said, "Instead of like a deer caught in the headlights, how about like Mel Lastman caught in a handshake with the Hells Angels?" "Hmm, we're getting somewhere," said Sandburg, throwing his scarf over his shoulder and casually flicking through the channels on my TV. "You know, I haven't watched TV in 15 years," he said. "Visual culture is such a cesspool." "Sandburg," I said, "I can't find a good simile to describe autumn leaves." Barely pausing, he shot out, "Autumn leaves, falling like subscription cards from magazines in a row of browsers." Then he flicked through more channels and grimaced in disgust. Wow, I thought, I'm getting my tuna's worth. I asked Sandburg about modern poetry. Why is it so obscure, to the point where the average person would rather read tax return tables? "Stay is what you say to a dog," Sandburg answered cryptically. "Beware the librarians of the night and the wrath of the pumpkin pie. Don't you think the joker laughs at you?" "See, that's what I mean," I said. "I have no idea what you're talking about." Throwing his Doc Marten boot at the image of Dick Clark that suddenly formed on the TV screen, he said, "Chuggachuggachugga ... Woo, woo." And I said, "There you go again, What's that?" "Oh, just my train of thought." To help me understand, Sandburg walked me through some of the great examples of modern poetry. The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock is one of the best and clearest, but even it threw up a speed bump by the third line. It starts, "Let us go then, you and I/ When the evening is spread out against the sky." That's promising, I thought. Two people. It's growing dark. Maybe they'll get it on. But then it goes, "Like a patient etherised upon a table." "Am I missing something?" I asked. "I have tried very hard, Sandburg, but no matter how I look at the evening sky, it never looks to me like a patient etherised upon a table. "I mean, where are the monitors, the IV tube? "Although, come to think of it, once I saw a cloud formation that reminded me of my mother-in-law chasing me with a rolling pin." Sandburg stood up, slapped me in the face and called me a Philistine. When he threatened to leave, I begged him to stay. "Stay is what you say to dogs," he retorted, throwing his scarf over his shoulder again. "Look, I'll pay you more. I'll get you the white tuna or salmon if you want. Catch of the day, you name it." He softened a bit. "Throw in satellite service and you've got yourself a deal. I must make a study of how bad television has become since I last watched." We got back to work. While I "invoked the muse," so to speak, Sandburg watched TV. My first effort was the rather clunky Ode to a Fuel Pump. I read it to Sandburg. "Your bushings and your rivet heads now succumb to rust/ Your pressure's weak, the flow a trickle/ Yet, old pump, I love you still/ Like a patient etherised upon a table. Hey, nonny nonny." Without taking his eyes off The People's Choice Awards, Sandburg punched me in the mouth. "I can't believe it," he snarled. "That poem is even worse than this show." I wrote and wrote, determined to produce "poet laureate" quality verse. "The boy stood on the burning deck/ His fleece was white as snow/ And wherever Mary went ... " Nah. Just a little derivative. I tore it up. "This is very frustrating," I said. "Yes," said Sandburg, "like a one-armed man trying to show the size of the fish he caught. Try tapping into your feminine side." And so I came up with: "Oh, poetry, thou doth pain me as the giving of birth,/ As the passing of a bill through Parliament or a bowling ball through a small space./ And the episiotomy stitches after,/ Whew, it's more than I can take." Sandburg punched me again. "That almost rhymed. Rhyme is a cancer on poetry." Now he was watching SpeedVision. "Try using exotic terms from nature, like cochineal, shadblow and furze," Sandburg recommended. "Wax your words. Clothe your ideas in them." Now I punched him. I decided finally to turn my hand to love poetry. "She played bass in an all-girl band, And stood out in my life Like a light-coloured cat Shedding on a dark blue suit. But the pestle of her indifference Crushed the carnal rose. And now, Oh, by my ruptured vena cava, How I bleed! How I bleed!" I don't care what Sandburg thinks. I'm sending this one in to Ottawa. Anyway, he's so far gone. He's laughing at re-runs of Alf and Full House and says things like "That Bob Saget, he rocks my world." This poetry stuff's harder than I thought. I'm going to have a lie-down, like a patient etherised upon a table. Epilogue I actually did put in a call to the Parliamentary Librarian's office where all applications and submissions for the poet laureate position are directed. And Pierrette Landry told me that so far they have received fewer than five applications. "They are mostly older generation, seasoned writers," said Landry, project manager for the Library of Parliament. All applications are welcome, she added, and should be addressed to Richard Paré, Parliamentary Librarian, in Ottawa. She expects a poet laureate will be chosen within the next three or four months. http://www.hamiltonspectator.com/mahoney/528283.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 11:58:59 -0400 Reply-To: bertha@greschak.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bertha Greschak Subject: Books/Journals For Sale/Trade MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Books: David Rattray / How I Became One of the Invisible David Rattray / Opening the Eyelid David Antin / What It Means to be Avant-garde James Dickey / Babel to Byzantium Baudelaire / Le Spleen de Paris Aime Cesaire / Cahier d'un Retour au Pays Natal Andre Gide / Etudes Gidiennes 1 Journals: Oblek 7 Telephone 15 Mandorla / The Minetta Review I am particularly interested in obtaining _Infinite Jest_ by David Foster Wallace. Please b/c if interested. Thanks, Bertha Greschak ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 15:26:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: clearance Comments: To: bertha@greschak.com MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT will send 5 recent journals for $7 - includes s&h. bc with mailing addressand take your chances. tom bell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bertha Greschak" To: Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 10:58 AM Subject: Books/Journals For Sale/Trade > Books: > > David Rattray / How I Became One of the Invisible > David Rattray / Opening the Eyelid > David Antin / What It Means to be Avant-garde > James Dickey / Babel to Byzantium > Baudelaire / Le Spleen de Paris > Aime Cesaire / Cahier d'un Retour au Pays Natal > Andre Gide / Etudes Gidiennes 1 > > Journals: > > Oblek 7 > Telephone 15 > Mandorla / The Minetta Review > > I am particularly interested in obtaining _Infinite Jest_ by David > Foster Wallace. > > Please b/c if interested. > > Thanks, > Bertha Greschak ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 12:32:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: I just spoke to kari edwards on the phone MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT What a delight to discover that kari lived in St. Louis for a time-- She received her M.F.A. in Sculpture at Washington University, and even had a studio in Soulard (http://stlouis.missouri.org/soulard/), one of my favorite parts of the vieux-riverfront. She was happy to hear that the Central West End is bustling and beautiful. kari and I share a love of teaching, although neither of us are in the classroom this year (kari, here's where you can read about that elementary school workshop I was telling you about: http://www.belz.net/teaching/journal.html). kari speaks in wonderful low tones. Resonant. If you spoke to her, you'd probably associate her voice with dependability. She has a book forthcoming soon via Subpress, a publishing model she and I both appreciate because of its sense of community and lack of monolithicism. (I mentioned Zoo Press as an example of the latter; some joints try a little hard to establish credibility, don't you think?) I associate kari's voice with her choice of press: personal integrity. In fact, if you want to hear kari's resonance for yourself, she's reading at Wordsworth's (Boston) and St. Marks (NYC) in mid-November. As for me, I've already heard! Aaron 314.781.9690 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 10:58:53 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Small Press Traffic Subject: Fraser & O'Leary at SPT this Friday 10/11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Small Press Traffic presents Friday, October 11, 2002 at 7:30 pm Kathleen Fraser & Peter O?Leary Kathleen Fraser is one of the superb marvels of San Francisco, an important poet, publisher, literary scholar, and critic. Her many books include Il Cuore (the heart): New & Selected Poems 1970-1995 (Wesleyan, 1997) and the stunningly inventive and compelling When New Time Folds Up (Chax Press, 1993). She is founding editor of How(ever), a landmark periodical of innovative feminist writing, now alive on the web as How2. She founded The American Poetry Archives during her directorship of The Poetry Center at SFSU and wrote and narrated the video anthology Women Working in Literature. Recent work includes a collection of essays, Translating the Unspeakable: Poetry and the Innovative Necessity (University of Alabama Press, 2001). Peter O?Leary is a grand, baroque poet, "upsetting conventional rhythms to raise architectonics of their own that are original and necessary", says Jon Curley, in a review of his collection Watchfulness (Spuyten Duyvil, 2001). His recent publications include a long poem, Fear of the Innermost Body Within the Body that We Call the Heart (The Cultural Society Miniside No. 1, 2001) and the scholarly work Gnostic Contagion: Robert Duncan & the Poetry of Illness (Wesleyan, 2002). O?Leary is also a dedicated publisher and literary scholar. He edited two volumes of the work of Ronald Johnson and is the editor of LVNG magazine in Chicago. All events are $5-10, sliding scale, unless otherwise noted. Our events are free to SPT members, and CCAC faculty, staff, and students. Unless otherwise noted, our events are presented in Timken Lecture Hall California College of Arts and Crafts 1111 Eighth Street, San Francisco (just off the intersection of 16th & Wisconsin) Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson, Executive Director Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center at CCAC 1111 - 8th Street San Francisco, California 94107 http://www.sptraffic.org 415-551-9278 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 14:32:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Norman O. Brown dies at age 89 Comments: To: "WRYTING-L : Writing and Theory across Disciplines" In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v546) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Renowned scholar and author Norman O. Brown dies at age 89 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE SANTA CRUZ, CA--Norman O. Brown, professor emeritus of humanities at the University of California, Santa Cruz, and author of Life Against Death and Love's Body, died October 2 at his residence in Santa Cruz, California. He was 89. Brown's influential scholarship and teaching encompassed the classics, theology, history, psychology, sociology, and literature, among other disciplines. "He was a liberating, visionary scholar, the successor in the 20th century to Blake and to Nietzsche," said Jerome Neu, professor of philosophy at UC Santa Cruz and a longtime colleague of Brown. When Brown's prize-winning book Life Against Death: The Psychoanalytical Meaning of History (1959) was published, Lionel Trilling called it "the best interpretation of Freud that I know." It was internationally acclaimed, ranking on the London Observer's list of best nonfiction books. "Until I wrote Life Against Death, I was a perfect sleeper," Brown said in a 1970 interview. "But when I learned to interpret my dreams, the power of sleep was taken from me. Freud said he came to disturb the sleep of the world. In my case, he succeeded." Life Against Death disturbed Brown in another way as well. It attracted a wide following among the 1960s activist generation of American students, creating unwelcome notoriety for a man who considered himself not a radical or a revolutionary, but rather a scholar and teacher. An attempt at a psychoanalysis of history, Life Against Death brought Brown fame in a variety of contexts, including the European intellectual community and the American counterculture. In 1966, Time magazine ranked Life Against Death "as one of the underground books that undergraduates feel they must read to be with it." It was this kind of celebrity that Brown shied away from, and in describing his next book, Love's Body (1966), Brown said, "I did feel.some kind of obligation to undo what I had done in Life Against Death. I wanted to release any followers I had acquired.I don't want to be a leader." Known to friends, colleagues, and students as "Nobby," Brown was born in Mexico and educated in Europe; he trained in classics at Oxford University. "I wanted to go straight to the heart of the dynamo," was how Brown explained his decision to do graduate studies in America. After getting a Ph.D. in classics at the University of Wisconsin, he began teaching at Nebraska Wesleyan University. His academic career was interrupted by World War II, during which Brown worked as a research analyst for the Office of Strategic Services. He returned to teaching after the war, chairing the Classics Department at Wesleyan University in Connecticut and then moving to the University of Rochester, where he was a professor of classics and comparative literature. He also published his first book, Hermes the Thief (1947), a sociological interpretation of mythology, greatly influenced by Marx. Brown joined the faculty at UCSC in 1968 as a fellow of Cowell College and was appointed a Professor of Humanities, the only UCSC faculty member ever given that title. "I believe Norman O. Brown was the most distinguished faculty member in the history of UCSC. Certainly he was a model of what a teacher, a colleague, and an engaged intellectual should be," said Neu. Brown taught a variety of courses, mostly through the History of Consciousness Department, until his retirement in 1981. His last two books were Closing Time (1973), and Apocalypse and/or Metamorphosis (1991), a collection of essays he had written over the course of 30 years. Brown was known for his erudite and imaginative lecture style, which was often poetic. Speaking at a UCSC commencement in 1984, he told the new graduates: "It is not a matter of having a soul, or of saving it, but more actively a matter of soul-making. The soul is creative and must create itself: it is the creative imagination." Brown is survived by his wife of 64 years, Elizabeth P. Brown; his sons Stephen and Thomas; daughters Rebecca and Susan; grandsons Alex Brown and Jeremy Gussin; and granddaughters Lisa Brown, Meika Scott-Brown, and Sara Gussin. A celebration of the life of Norman O. Brown will take place on Saturday, October 19, at 3 p.m. in a location to be determined. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 17:18:31 -0230 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K.Angelo Hehir" Subject: baraka responds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The ADL Smear Campaign Against Me I Will Not Resign, I Will Not Apologize by AMIRI BARAKA The recent dishonest, consciously distorted and insulting non-interpretation of my poem, "Somebody Blew Up America" by the "Anti-Defamation" League, is fundamentally an attempt to defame me. And with that, an attempt to repress and stigmatize independent thinkers everywhere. This trashy propaganda is characteristic of right-wing zealots who are interested only in slander and character assassination of those whose views or philosophies differ from or are in contradiction to theirs. First, the poem underlying theme focuses on how Black Americans have suffered from domestic terrorism since being kidnapped into US chattel slavery, e.g., by Slave Owners, US & State Laws, Klan, Skin Heads, Domestic Nazis, Lynching, denial of rights, national oppression, racism, character assassination, historically, and at this very minute throughout the US. The relevance of this to Bush call for a "War on Terrorism", is that Black people feel we have always been victims of terror, governmental and general, so we cannot get as frenzied and hysterical as the people who while asking us to dismiss our history and contemporary reality to join them, in the name of a shallow "patriotism" in attacking the majority of people in the world, especially people of color and in the third world. This is said to us, even as this counterfeit president has legalized the Confederate Flag in Mississippi. Could the victims of European Fascism be as frantically loyal to a regime that would fly a Nazi Swastika over their homes? So we cannot, in good conscience, celebrate what seems to us an international crusade to set up a military dictatorship over the world, legitimatized at base, by white supremacy, carried out, no matter the crude lies, as the most terrifying form of Imperialism and its attendant national oppression. All of it designed to drain super profits bluntly from the colored peoples of the world, but as well, from the majority of the peoples in the world. For all the frantic condemnations of Terror by Bush &c, as the single International Super Power, they are the most dangerous terrorists in the world! Actually, in my focus on various forces of terror Afro Americans and other oppressed people of the world have suffered, slavery, colonialism, Imperialism, Neo neo-colonialism, National Oppression, the ADL disingenuously makes no mention of my probing into the creators of the holocaust, e.g., "who put the Jews in ovens, / and who helped them do it, / Who said "America First"/ and Ok'd the yellow stars", which of course is a reference to America's domestic fascists just before World War @ and the Nazi Holocaust. Nor do these ADL purveyors of falsehood mention the poem's listing of some of the Jews across the world, oppressed, imprisoned, murdered by actual Anti- Semitic forces, open or disguised. The poem asks "Who killed Rosa Luxembourg, Liebnecht/Who murdered the Rosenbergs/ And all the good people iced, tortured, assassinate, vanished". The ADL apparently is not outraged by McCarthy era frame-up and execution of the Rosenbergs, nor the assassination of German Jewish Communist leaders like Liebnecht, Luxembourg. The ADL leaves these things out to try to make their lies more believable, and also because these victims of imperialism were on the Left Happily the Star Ledger published the entire poem, though including in a box, supposedly identifying the offending phrases, my question, "Who Blew Up The Reichstag?" as if the ADL had also claimed that the poem was inferring that Jews did it. When it was Hitler's destruction of the Reichstag, that provided the pretext for the general imprisonment of Jews, after incarcerating Communists, Social Democrats and Trade Unionists. Why this was done one can only speculate, but this is the kind of sloppy or intentionally slanderous journalism one can often find in the media. It also reflects the kind of unprincipled attack that characterizes ADL press release. The Reichstag fire, parallels the 911 Attack, in that after that "mysterious act of terrorism", which Hitler blamed on Jews and Communists, the Nazis passed a law The Reichstag Enablement Act, that gave the Nazis much the same carte blanche as the Bush administration used the 911 tragedy to pass the wholly undemocratic Patriot Bill and begin rounding up suspects, even without identifying them. Of course the actual arsonists of the Reichstag terror were never found, though most scholars are certain it was the Nazis themselves. Of the other lines of the poem, which the ADL termed an example of the Hitlerian "Big Lie", and the poet's "spewing Anti-Semitic venom". The lines, "Who knew the World Trade Center was gonna get/bombed?" Well now, certainly, even the Democratic Party has affirmed that the Bush Administration knew. I agree with this, and it is everywhere on the Internet that not only was the US warned repeatedly by Germany, France, Russia, England but also Israel. Michael Ruppert of the Green Party has issued a video stating clearly, "Israeli security issued urgent warnings to the CIA of large-scale terror attacks. ...And that the Israeli Mossad knew that the attacks were going to take place...they knew that the World Trade Center were the targets. This is from British newspaper the "Telegraph". (Copies of these documents available with this statement.) In addition there are articles in all forms of media and of course the Internet confirming or suggesting that the entire Imperialist world knew and had warned the US CIA in advance, but no action was taken. WHY. They say they "couldn't connect the dots". The FBI agents in Minnesota and Arizona who sd that FBI received a report in 1998 that a terrorist organization ...planned to bring people to the US to enroll in flight schools. Zacharias Moussoui, now charged with conspiring in the Sept 11 attacks, was arrested by the Minnesota agents of the FBI in August 2001 but FBI HQ denied agents request to seek a warrant even to search his computer. And in a prepared statement by a Minnesota FBI agent, he blamed legal restrictions but principally FBI headquarters for impeding a more aggressive investigation of this man. As for the other agent's attempt to warn the FBI HQ of these attacks, he was rebuffed when he made the report, but now FBI HQ says it has not record of such warning. (See ) There are other incredible dots on the media, for instance the stockholders of American Airlines and United, which were the carriers highjacked to commit the terror began withdrawing stock from these companies in August before the attacks. The most offensive phrase in the poem to my various attackers is, "Who told 4000 Israeli workers at the Twin Towers / to stay home that day/ Why did Sharon stay away?" To infer that I am accusing Israel of committing the atrocity is disingenuous slander and character assassination. But I do believe, as I stated about England, Germany, France, Russia, that the Israeli government, certainly it's security force, SHABAK knew about the attack in advance. My sources were, "Ha'aretz" and "Yadiot Ahranot" (two Israeli newspapers) "Al Watan" (a Jordanian newspaper), "Manar" -TV and the website of the Israeli security force SHABAK. There are myriad references to this in Reuters, Der Spiegel. The Israeli newspaper Yadiot Ahranot lst revealed that SHABAK had canceled Sharon's appearance in New York City that day, Sept 11, where he was supposed to speak at an "Israel Day" celebration. This was also mentioned in the Star Ledger, to the effect that Sharon was supposed to visit the US, but no dates were mentioned. It is the Green Party's Ruppert who makes the most effective case for the 4000 Israeli workers (Not Jewish Workers!) but Israeli nationals. He says in his video, "if what I am showing you is know overtly although the media, how much more does our thirty billion dollar intelligence community know"/ He goes on, and this seems true to me, It is "Nonsense" to say the Israelis did it They were warning the U.S. hand over fist..." Ruppert speculates further 1. The US did not listen 2. They needed the attacks" which I leave to time, as Malcolm X sd, Time will tell. But the most stunning revelation is this, again Ruppert, "We reviewed the list of former tenants of the World Trade Center at the on-line Wall St Journal site. And there's the website. It is an alphabetical list of tenants. Scroll to the very bottom and notice the moving date for the office of Zim American-Israeli Shipping to Norfolk Virginia. They were in the World Trade Center. They must have had Mossad" (or Shabak- AB) input because they vacated one week before September and they broke their lease. The Israelis didn't pull the attack, but they were smart enough to get their people out of the way. How come our government didn't do the same thing for us." (Statement & Quote by George DeCarlo, Coordinator of Union County Greens, Co Founder of the NJ Lavender Greens- included in media pkg.) The poem was never saying anything else, i.e., why didn't the other slaughtered Americans know? I WAS NOT SAYING ISRAEL WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE ATTACK, BUT THAT THEY KNEW AND OUR OWN COUNTERFEIT PRESIDENT DID TOO! There is other disturbing facts surround the hideous 911 attacks, which my family and I could see from the third floor bathroom window of our homes! And certainly one day all this will be thoroughly investigated. The poem says "Who know why Five Israelis was filming the explosion/ And cracking they sides at the notion." I got this story from The Star Ledger, where it appeared twice, and The New York Times. The reference to "cracking they sides" or laughing uproariously while filming the 911 attack, apparently on the top of a truck from the Jersey side is a direct paraphrase of the Ledger articles. In fact, the State Police, who arrested them, stated that that is one of the reasons they did arrest them, because they were laughing. Again, these were Israeli Nationals, persons holding Israeli passports. The Times article even reported on what their lives were like in Jail. And implied they would be deported. So this reference is not more of the ADL's "Anti-Semitic venom" but arrived at merely from studying the US media. Why those five Israelis were there filming and laughing I do not claim know. That's why the poem here and throughout continuously chants the question WHO WHO WHO? That is, who is responsible for this horrible crime and WHY? It is a poem that aims to probe and disturb, but there is not the slightest evidence of Anti-Semitism, as anyone who reads it without some insidious bias would have to agree. Why the ADL would do this, I can only speculate. I wish they and other concerned pundits would speculate on how an Airplane flying in America, where the pilot has to file a flight plan before taking off, how can such a plane or two or three of them file such a route in which they would travel, and in the case of the planes leaving Boston make 45 degree turns south and fly 54 minutes to the World Trade Center and 90 minutes to the Pentagon and not be challenged by US Air Defense Fighters, or brought down by ground to air missiles? Having been in the Air Force I know those ADC fighters would normally confront such "rogue" aircraft within a few minutes! Why was this not done? Let the ADL and the media investigating me, investigate that! We should know that Bush and his Right Wing crew want War against all the forces of their so called "Axis of Evil" What a not so wild coincidence that the path of this Axis parallels the route of the proposed US oil corporations- pipe line from Saudi to the far east, apparently to oppose the spiraling economic growth and influence of China. They scream "Bin Laden" and "Taliban" and destroy Afghanistan, install a puppet president and a shadow occupation force. Next in the Axis is Iraq, we should have known that. With no real proof at all again the people of the US outraged and frightened by the Reichstag of 911 are hyped with chants of "Regime Change" and "Saddam Hussein". No longer is the madness of crowds being aroused by the "Anti -Terrorist" campaign and Bin Laden as the Devil figure used to rouse the people to a patriotic frenzy, now it is Saddam Hussein. So forget last month's war and get ready for this month's. Bush says he wants "regime change" in Palestine, he wants to oust Arafat, now in Iraq, and he wants to oust Saddam. The Axis projects Iran next and then North Korea. What is this an updated version of 1984 or an American version of Hitler's and Bush 1's) New World Order? Regime Change, why? Because these regimes are anti democratic or terrorists or in the case of Saddam, they have "weapons of mass destruction". Well if being anti democratic were a good rationalization for foreign invasions of countries then the United States better watch out because the Florida coup, which tricked the American people into accepting Bush as President is anything but democratic. Should we let foreign countries invade us to get rid of Bush? What would be the American People's reaction to such Third Reich replay? And as for Saddam having "weapons of mass destruction" (or mass diversion as some critics say) The US has these weapons. So do Israel, South Africa, Germany, France, Italy, England, Russia, and now China, India, Pakistan. How is it the US and its allies (except the Chinese) can have such weapons, but no one else can. The answer to that, of course, is White Supremacy and Imperialism. And what should be the growing understanding by the American people and the democratic people of the world, is what the far right Bush coven wants is a military dictatorship of the world. The ADL, by attacking me by distorting what my poem is saying, is doing its usual ugly, as a well known running dog of imperialism, particularly by attacking anyone who takes an independent position or is critical of Israeli Imperialism and its attendant ideology political Zionism. As they are attempting with me the ADL slanders anyone who is not happy with Israel's ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians As Anti Semitic, when lst of all Israel and its guiding philosophy have nothing to do, as categories, with Jews. (See "Zionism in the Age of the Dictators", Brenner But this is the trick such demagogues as the ADL use to hide the crimes of Imperialist Israel. When we criticize US imperialism does that make us enemies of Christianity, maybe only to Jerry Falwell and such Right wing Christian Zealots, perhaps Asscraft But neither Israel nor Zionism is the same as Judaism. (Op cit Brenner; also "The Dilemma of the Modern Jew, Prinz".) But this is the trick the Israeli's and their sympathizers use to hide behind Judaism. Israel (and it's political Zionism) has as much to do with Judaism, as the US has to do with Christianity. In the US our constitution makes clear that this is a secular nation and by law theoretically enforces separation of church and state, tho Mr. Bush and Mr. Asscraft have demonstrated they disagree, and Israel outright says it is a "Jewish State" but if that is so then that explains why it can discriminate against its Arab people living inside Israel and make them 2nd class citizens, in much the same way that South Africa, a close friend did under Apartheid. (See "The Crisis of Black Jewish Relations", Brenner & Bloom; "Israel and South Africa", Stevens & Ellmessi; The "Arabs in Israel" by Sabri Jiryis, foreword by Noam Chomsky) The ADL attacks so it can confuse people and show me as just another Anti- Semitic attacker of their absolutely false depictions of Israel as a victim of Palestinian Terrorism. This is absolutely in tune with the Bush administrations Frenzied "destroy Iraq regime change "Jones" (a street word for narcotics addiction) that the administration is chanting around us like cheer leaders at a football game! So that US imperialism can transform the whole of the Middle East, the Arab world into a gas station (See "Bushwacked: A Counterfeit President for a Fake Democracy", Baraka) So that we are supposed to believe that if a little girl blows herself up in a Israeli Pizza Parlor, she is a terrorist, but when Israeli Jets, made in the USA, destroy whole sections of Palestinian cities, bulldoze neighborhoods, all but destroy the Palestinian Center of Governance, with its President, Yasser Arafat, inside sitting in the dark, it is the Israelis who are victims and the little Palestinian girl or boy or young man or young woman or even elder, they are the terrorists. We are supposed to be intimidated by demagogues like the Anti Defamation League (who shd be called the Anti Anti Defamation League) so that Israel as a jr. partner of the Bush led US goosestep to world military domination can commit ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians in the name of fighting terrorism. It is the ADL, which is actually guilty of what its leader, Abraham Foxman calls the Hitlerian "Big Lie", and ironically it is the ADL, which is "spewing anti-Semitic venom". The same ADL which became aware of "Black Anti Semitism", which it had earlier said has never been a threat, until Stokely Carmichael and SNCC began to support the PLO and the Palestinian Struggle as a Liberation Struggle and condemn Israeli Imperialism and Zionism. That is when, as Stokeley Carmichael says in the APRP's "Smash Zionism" the ADL smashed SNCC instead. As Israel drew closer to South Africa, politically, economically, militarily in the 60's (Op Cit, above & others) the Black Liberation Movement and African Nations became more and more guilty, according to the ADL, of "Black Anti-Semitism". This is the same ADL who opposed Affirmative Action, even though many Jews benefited by the Civil Rights Struggle, and the most notable white comrades in that struggle were young Jews. The same ADL that filed an Amicus Curiae (friend of the court brief) in the historic and reactionary Baake Decision which challenged & defeated the University of California's affirmative action as "racist" and was explained by the ADL as its opposition to quotas. So that the university's could now enforce a quota on Black students of none! This is the same ADL, which in league with the American Israel Political Action Committee, just a few weeks ago sent millions of dollars into Atlanta, Georgia to defeat progressive Black Congress woman Cynthia McKinney, because she called for a more balance American view of the Palestinian -Israeli Conflict. These same forces defeated in Alabama, another progressive Black incumbent Congressman, because he too dared to support the Palestinians. (See New York Times), Amsterdam News, Star Ledger). Very much like the way Bush touts "Regime Change," recently even hinting at an attempted Assassination of Saddam Hussein, if the American People rise up and force our congress to deny the Bush juggernaut of terror to attack Iraq. ADL and their " bagman" AIPAC didn't like these black politicians stance on Israel, so in a minute and a few million dollars, they are gone! So now, it's my turn. Using my poem, Somebody Blew Up America" they are Going to spread the Big Lie, distort what poem says. Cover the fact that this poem actually is an attack on Imperialism, National Oppression, Monopoly Capitalism, Racism, Anti-Semitism. I challenge ADL to show anywhere in this poem that is Anti-Semitic in the least. In their press release they say talk about "Jews being scapegoated throughout history...' then "conspiracy mongers of the Arab world...have taken Anti-Israel propaganda to a new level " (Mr. Foxman, what is the Arab World? Alan Dershowitz in his "Chutzpah" says the basis of bigotry is "overgeneralization," so where is the "Arab World"? Is Detroit included? Asscraft thinks so. Earlier the press release mentions "the Muslim World" does that include Lyons Ave, Newark? But then from "Anti-Semitism" the release goes to Israel, not Jews, and Israeli Mossad as those victimized. So they fight Anti Semitism Mainly by "defending" Israel. In fact they defend Israel like Joe McCarthy "defended" the US against Communism. Included in my package is a communique from an Israeli Peace Organization ": Gush Shalom", "Israeli Peace Block (see Defamation from the Anti Defamation League Answered" () This was first published 7/11/2000 as a press release. "In the past 24 hours, an attack is being mounted against Gush Shalom. Knesset Member Collette Avital (Labor) has actually lodge a complaint with the police, claiming that cartoons presented on our website constitute "incitement". And the powerful American Jewish organization Anti -Defamation League found time, even on election day, over there, to disseminate a message of defamation against "Gush Shalom", which already resulted in hate e mails being sent our address" In a following message signed by Adam Keller Gush, Shalom Spokesperson. The organization defends itself from an ADL pres release s "expressing outrage at Gush Shalom's portrayal of Prime Minster Barak as a killer of Palestinian children in a caricature on its web site, stating that the image of Barak standing on the bleeding bullet ridden body of a Palestinian child is abhorrent." Gush Shalom replies, "Still after consulting with my fellow activists I am in a position to make an offer. Should a complete week - seven days pass in which not a single unarmed Palestinian is killed by the Israeli armed forces which are answerable to Mr. Barak, we would remove the above mentioned cartoon from our website. The Gush Shalom statement ends "As for the ADL- an organization which claims to "counter hatred prejudice and bigotry" can you truly find no other places to search for such, with Israeli society in its present condition, except at our modest website. Was the ADL attacking these Israelis for being Anti Semitic or criticizing rather forcefully the continuous murder of the Palestinians. So in Israel itself, ADL is still covering for and attacking anyone, even Israeli citizens themselves who oppose the Bush Zionist Plan to de-Palestinianize Palestine! Another communication from Israel (). This signed by 95 Israeli Academics (copy included in pkg), Sept 23, 2002 that begins "URGENT WARNING: THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT MAY BE CONTEMPLATING CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY" It goes on, "We members of the Israeli academe are horrified by US buildup of aggression towards Iraq and by the Israeli political leadership's enthusiastic support of it. We are deeply worried by indications that the "fog of war" could be exploited by the Israeli government to commit further crimes against the Palestinian people, up to full-fledged ethnic cleansing." One striking description of the Israeli Military by these professors is that in an interview found in Ha'aretz Sept 19, 2002, Israeli Chief of Staff Moshe Ya'alon describe the Palestinians as a "cancerous manifestation" and equated the military actions in the Occupied territories with "chemotherapy" Certainly the ADL will have to go after these "Anti Semites" using the "Big Lie" and "Spewing Anti-Semitic Venom"! And the growing list of progressive democratic people around the world who will have opinions about Israel and Political Zionism independent of the ADL, the ADL will have to attack and slander them as well I challenge the ADL to set up a national television program so that we might debate this issue. We can project the poem on a wall and go down line by new and discuss it. If not that then why not a forum or debate some place like NYC Town Hall or at Symphony Hall in Newark. Why not take a survey of those who heard the poem at the Dodge Festival? Those who registered and the students brought by schools could be contacted and a survey taken to reflect just the majority of people hearing the poem thought, not just some shadowy surrogates of Imperialism who are trying to convince people that I and my poem are the enemy not US and Israeli Imperialism. I have already gotten a great many communications praising the poem. A great many E-mail letters and phone calls not only praising the poem, and the poet for writing it, but also opposing the attempt to violate my first amendment rights by this oft repeated ADL skin game of calling critics of imperialism Anti Semites. I have already said, in answer to what Governor McGreevey is quoted as demanding that I apologize and that I resign as NJ Poet Laureate. And I have said repeatedly that I will do neither. It is unfortunate that Governor McGreevey has been stampeded by paid liars, and apologists for ethnic cleansing and white supremacy, bourgeois nationalists and the dangerously ignorant, to be panicked into joining in the ADL's slander, belittling my intelligence, and insulting not only my person, my family, my fellow artists and activists who know all this is just the feces of a very small cow. But they are also attacking my work in the arts and my social political views. By demanding that I apologize to Evil and Submit to some fundamentally racist and politically motivated call for me to resign as New Jersey's Poet Laureate, he is insulting the broad group of people who know he is incorrect and who have read and celebrated and valued my work. And that is a grave mistake, one I am hoping he will correct. "Somebody Blew Up America!" was written Oct 1, 2001. A month after the terror attack. Almost immediately I circulated it around the world on the Internet. In addition, I have read this poem in Spain, Portugal, Africa, Switzerland, Italy, Finland and it was translated into German and read on German radio, at Universities and other venues across this country. It has become one of the most circulated of my poems. Yet it was not until I read the poem at the Dodge Poetry Festival that I got negative response from three people that I know of. The overwhelming response was an almost thunderous applause. I even had to come out and take a second bow at one performance. So why now and Who, as the poem asks, is behind it? Perhaps the forces which have dishonestly tried to characterize the poem as "venom" or merely "a harangue" (just as they called John Coltrane's music "Barbaric Yawps") are simply, the Charlie McCarthy voices for Bush & Sharon's Edgar Bergen's. Empty-headed devilish dummies constructed of wood and painted and costumed to look like it is real people speaking, when all the time it is imperialism is the ventriloquist speaking through their mouths, NO, I WILL NOT APOLOGIZE, I WILL NOT RESIGN. In fact I will continue to do what I have appointed to do but still have not been paid to do. Publicize and Popularize poetry and poets throughout this state. To set up new venues and new networks for poetry reading and workshops, in the state's libraries and schools and other institutions. Hopefully initiated and given paradigm right here in the Newark Public Library, its branches and throughout the school system. Therefore giving more of our citizens access to poetry, involving poets of all nationalities, both male and female, of diverse experience and styles. I have already begun to enlist coordinators of poetry programs throughout the state, so that we can network a tour of poets, hopefully beginning in January, throughout the state. To do this I will be approaching local, county, state, federal and private funding. And expand our budget with the cooperation of these other existing programs. We will ask that poets POET-ON! That they begin to produce at least one poem or publish a poem monthly, in the most modest forms, Kinko style, and give them away if they have to. That they begin to set up readings not only in the places we mentioned but also in parks and restaurants and in neighborhoods. We say this because we feel that this state and indeed this nation and this world is desperately in need of the deepest and most profound human values that poetry can teach. That is what Keats and Du Bois called for the poet to do, to bring Truth and Beauty. To be like the most ancient paradigmythic image of the poet. To be like Osiris and Orpheus, whose job it was to raise the Sun each morning with song and story. To illuminate the human mind, and bring light into the world. POET ON! Amiri Baraka is the poet laureat of New Jersey. Visit his website at: http://www.amiribaraka.com/ -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 16:13:05 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: Fwd: xStream #4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: xStream #4 online xStream -- Issue #4 and new address xStream Issue #4 is online. It consists three different magazines: 1. Regular: Works from 7 poets 2. Autoissue: Poems generated by computer from Issue #4 texts. 3. Collaborative: Sheila Murphy (poems) and Jukka-Pekka Kervinen (computer-processed variations). The address of site has changed, the new is http://xstream.xpressed.org Submissions are welcome, please send to new email address xstream@xpressed.org. Sincerely, Jukka-Pekka Kervinen Editor xStream WWW: http://xstream.xpressed.org email: xstream@xpressed.org _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 16:49:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: I just spoke with Murat Nemet-Nejat on the phone Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed How deliciously mundane--as a poodle or moodring--the fact that Murat works a mere 10 blocks from me in New York's bustling midtown. (Why, I have even "run into" him on the street!) I have no idea where he went to school--although he's told me repeatedly. Murat and I share a love of hard alcohol and eggplant (although he's not quite the Baba Ganoush fiend I am), and though we do plan to meet for dinner tonight before Kevin and Dodie's reading at the Project, it's doubtful we'll wind up anywhere that serves really outstanding zaalouk , let alone raki . Murat speaks in fabulously glowing "crop circles" of verbs, prepositions, nouns ... and more nouns! If you spoke with him, you would perhaps not think of "crop circles"--except, oh! I have "planted" them in your mind! How could you not, now! He has a number of books forthcoming soon--including a long-awaited tome from Talisman of translations from contemporary Turkish poetry and an equally long-awaited essay on photography from Green Integer. Murat--whose each name ends with a "T"--chose these presses because *they* include the letter "T" in them as well! Is he out of his mind? We are meeting outside St. Mark's Bookstore--conveniently situated at the "T" of 9th Street and Third Avenue. I associate Murat's voice with Turkey, not simply because he was born there, but because, it too features the letter "T"--so prominently! Oh, if only you could hear Murat, his "T"s flying off his tongue--such sweet tintinnabulation, and never tatterdemalian! Oh, if only, if only he were not such a Tease! ___________ / Call me! \ """""" /My cell Phone\ "" "" "" ( number is ... ) "" _ _ "" \ oh ... um _/ "-(o)(o)-" // { .. } // ( .__. ) \____/ [>||<] ========== == ===""= == == === = == == ====== == /_} | __ | {_\ " | || | "[::]- | || | |_||_| _# #_ /__)(__\ _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 17:19:18 -0400 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: the BIG BIG lie..too ...follow the dots... 1. In june july...Amiri Barka gives a series of reading in various N.J. communities...see notes for Newspaper clippings...F.B.I. agents tracking suspected terrorists note that Baraka speaks at each meeting to them..at some he hands them papers and books... 2. In Aug. Baraka who has a busy schedule decides to cancel all future commercial flights... 3. Fully vested in the NYStatePensionSystem....unusual activity is noted in all his accounts... 4. E-mail tracking monitors..report words like evil terrorist Zionist constanly on his screen.. 5. On sept 11...Baraka and 1,000's of others with moslem sounding names do not show up in Lower Manhattan. even tho they live in the immediate vicinity....hundreds of Bizness along Atlantic Ave...miles from the site...never open... Baraka has extraordinary telephone and e-mail message volume that day.. 6. In Nov...he is seen at a Jazz Event sitting next to a fellow moslem on the terrorist watch list.. 7. Syrian and Iraqui translations of Baraka's work.. 8. Baraka is seen buying a new pair of Jeans at the gap..... 9. Baraka holds a bottle of cheap...and nipping at it from a paper bag.. 10. Baraka is made a Fellow of the American of Academy of Poets.. 11..jewish Child reported missing in Newark at Kwansa... 12... Baraka orders a Big Mac..changes his mind and has a double bacon cheeseberger... follow the dots...& member this why them ole slaves follow followed the drinkin' gourd...so Baraka didn't have to et all his fries...DRn. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 17:58:21 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: Free Amiri Baraka Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed While you're at it, please free me from tiresome murmurs of the dreary H. Nudel. --Jim Behrle _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 19:13:43 -0400 Reply-To: "Frost, Corey" Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Frost, Corey" Organization: CUNY Subject: Re: Ron Silliman - 3 NYC Readings in two days MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "K.Angelo Hehir" wrote: > can i get some more info on this launch? a strange mix methinks. Hi, Kevin and list. There's more info on the Short Fuse launch, at which I'm also reading, at the Ratapallax website: http://www.rattapallax.com/fusion_week.htm Also, a PDF version of the press release is at http://www.rattapallax.com/fusion_images/fuse_week_release.pdf Also, I want to draw everyone's attention to a related reading on the 17th of October at the Galapagos Art Space (70 North 6th St., Williamsburg, Brooklyn, NY). This is going to be a showcase of some Conundrum Press writers and performers from Montreal, and one former Montrealer in New York (me), who make up a large part of the Canadian contingent in the "global" Short Fuse anthology. These are people (Catherine Kidd, Ian Ferrier...) who do their work in the zone between poetry/fiction and theatre, without being anything like slam poets. There is a lot going on that week, and none of us is well-known in New York, but I hope you will be enticed to come by the opportunity to sample a style of performance writing which is unique, I think, to the Montreal scene. Kevin, I assume you're in St.John's and I won't be seeing you there, but thanks for the interest. Corey Frost -- Corey Frost 135 Plymouth St. #309A, Brooklyn, NY 11201 cfrost@gc.cuny.edu Bits World: www.attcanada.ca/~coreyf ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 16:40:47 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: succubus in my pocket In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v546) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable from: succubus in my pocket I looked over my shoulder and saw a toothless pig talking to the = three=20 legged image that had fucked me and used public urination as a rite of=20= passage. time existed on the head of a pin that had been lost=20 yesterday. just then the muffin head gang gained access to the candy=20 apple land, the calliope was playing =93this time is the end of the next=20= time - baby,=94 the red sea parted in one direction and gave a direct=20 passage for the muffin head gang to enter. at the same moment the=20 police stopped playing sugar daddy with their horses, and the queen=20 arrived just outside my protected zone, wearing gold lame=92 breast=20 covers and a chrome cock ring. stroking the tiny rake pendent around=20= my neck and reciting words to ward off warts, evil empires and the holy=20= templar knights. there was a simultaneous mustard surge on a cooked=20 wiener about to reach its contained limits, =93this time is the end of=20= the next time - baby=94 was reaching the integral fifteen minute drum=20 solo, the muffin heads were chanting flower songs, and my three legged=20= compatriot was sucking on a pig=92s snout as precursor to interspecies=20= copulation. I didn't want to watch any of this from anywhere, which seemed = like=20 everywhere. surrounded by hordes on holiday parades, all waving slogan=20= killers off to lunch, the queen of sheba was cutting through the=20 atmosphere with vocal razor blades, coming directly towards me,=20 screeching love tunes of past slugs and high shoe mongoloids. I=20 quickly pulled out my pages from =93a queen boy looking back,=94 and=20 watched as the words started to perform a queer little dance=20 surrounding me with a pirouette force field of refuge. all stilled as=20 the toothless one frozen in the middle of a nose job with the pig, the=20= calliope gasped its last thought of air, the muffin heads reflected=20 only a slight notable motion, like gigantic monuments of stupidity=20 waving in the air, it almost made me want to recite the pledge to the=20 flag.= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 16:58:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Safdie Joseph Subject: Re: Norman O. Brown dies at age 89 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Thanks Miekal . . . but this is very sad news indeed. Nobby was an incredible human being -- wise, learned, yet always impish and spritely. I was fortunate enough to be a student of his at UC Santa Cruz, absolutely one of my formative experiences as a poet . . . (if such things happen anymore, or can be categorized as such). When students signed up for his History of Consciousness class at UC Santa Cruz in the fall of 1973, none of them, I think, were prepared for an intensive reading of Pound's *Cantos* (it was a two-quarter class, the second being readings in Olson and Duncan); the final assignment for the class was to write our own cantos. I still remember, as if it were yesterday, one of his rambling lectures about why there were two myths of Dionysus' birth . . . at one point he stopped talking and walked to the window and looked out, the class completely hushed . . . and he said "Greece is a long way from Monterey Bay" . . . After I'd graduated, I kept in touch, and at one point wrote him a long rambling (stoned) letter after re-reading everything he'd written, and demanded at the end "Where are your poems?" (The last line of *Love's Body" is "All is a metaphor, there is only poetry"). He was unbearably gracious, writing back that "perhaps, one day" he would have some poems to show; it was the most gentle come-uppance I think I've ever received. His last book, *Apocaclypse and/or Metamorphosis" (mentioned in that obituary) contains some amazing essays about Islam (which he decided to "do" after the Iranian hostage crisis in 1979), as well as reflections about socialist politics and poetry after the fall of the Berlin Wall (heavy on Zukofsky). It's well-worth checking out, as are his previous books . . . God, it hurts. He was wonderful. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 22:13:55 -0400 Reply-To: Allen Bramhall Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Allen Bramhall Subject: Re: the big lie MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit believing that tibet has always been a part of china is basicly ignoring the fact that it was independant, though it did have close ties with china developed during the 5th and 6th centuries in particular. a million tibetans dead or missing, thousands jailed without so much as a hearing for years--torture as the rule rather than the exception. these are facts. documented facts. as for mongolia, sorry, your'e sadly mistaken. i have a friend, living in canada, was a physicist. he spent two years in a chinese prison before even having a hearing. his crime ? he brought a newspaper into the country. one newspaper. yep, thats all. two years, finally freed to be exiled from his family and country for life. he considers himself lucky to have gotten out, with the help of amnesty international. this is a documented case. thats the enlightened goverment you speak so highly of, richard. china has no more integrity than any other country and a history of starting guerilla wars in the countries it borders, destablizing those countries, then coming in when the goverments collapse. if you want to see this in progress, check out whats happening in nepal. as for the statement that 'china is relatively uncorrupt' everyone i know from china says the goverment is corrupt. i would also stress that i am not comparing the united states to any country, waving the flag of colonializm in drag, so to speak. your statement : quote : > the present western backed ractionaries in Tibet musd be kept "down" aslso any in Mongolia: is very familar to me. substitute 'women' or ' niggers' in place of tibetans or mongolians and we've heard it before in this country during the 60's and seventies. you can still hear it south of the mason dixon line. intolerance, bigotry, viewing people as objects rather living beings, ignorance, thats what blew up america, richard. i'll refrain from the name calling you've indulged in, honest dscourse and diverse viewpoints being my goal. be well, beth garrison > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "richard.tylr" > To: "Allen Bramhall" > Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 8:54 PM > Subject: Re: the big lie > > > > I see he need for China to keep its integrity and they dont need the > > reactionaries in Tibet to subvert their state which has always had Tibet: > > the present western backed ractionaries in Tibet musd be kept "down" aslso > > any in Mongolia: it doeesnt amatter how many may or may have not been > > killed: he alternative is the kind of rwars and embargoes that US get into > > and the major imperiaists which cause daily the deaths of thousands: the > > point is that China is a powerful State, relatively uncrorupt, and > > independent (they even have their own computer which is in Chinese, > designed > > in China, they have Stealth bombers, huge undergound resistance and > ICBMS - > > watch out Uncle Sam!!) China, like much of the world doesnt need the US: > > this is he point, the US is now anout to go ahead with another war - they > > must have prosecuted about 100 to China's one (in fact I cant recall China > > since 1949 being involved in any outside wars so i think you are talking > > rubbish...I do recall they sent taechniciansrto help tanzania no strings > > attached which the US bever does (they always charge) (minor and > basically > > benign) occupation of Mongolia. Would the US pull out of Turkey, Saudi > > Arabia, Afgahanistan, Palestine (via Israel), Pakistan and even Australia? > > They have quite got NZ in the bag we are resisting their arrogant call to > > allow nuclear powered ships so far thank Christ. > > > > The Chinese are no fools. They long ago got ready for an US invasion in > fact > > they fought the US off in the 50s (the Korean war was a front for an > > invasion of China to destroy that workers democratic state)...No your weak > > bourgeious protestations move me not. Richard taylor. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Allen Bramhall" > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 2:42 AM > > Subject: Fw: the big lie > > > > > > > Subject: re: the big lie > > > > > > > > > > 'Thank God China has kept the US out. The US will never mess with > China. > > > If > > > > they did they would actually have to have a real war...not this > gutless > > > > bombing of weak countries and the killing of women and children and > > anyone > > > > else as they always do. You are obviously very poorly read in > political > > > > matters. Richard Taylor.' > > > > > > > > > > my god, richard ! > > > holding up china as a role model....good lord, do you have _any_ idea at > > all > > > what they > > > have done to mongolia and tibet ? the millions dead and misplaced ? the > > > thousands slaving in dentention camps ? state sponsored torture ? > > > > > > it was a poem about intolerance. it was a poem about how we all seem to > > > have > > > our own brand of intolerance. all of us. none of us escapes the brush > with > > > extinction. none. > > > > > > beth garrison > > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 00:53:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: poetry and madness Comments: To: webartery@yahoogroups.com MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT in the interest of moving this monthly topic a little ways past the usual level I just came across a couple of bits that might be of interest. there is a new book out on _A Language for Psychosis (Brunner Routledge books are generally quite interesting). according to Duncan the activity of the poet is _psychotic. as in 'pf a psychosis," meaning, literally, "the soul in process," from the Greek _psyche, for soul, and the suffix, -osis, for process (taken from o'Leary's _Gnostic Contagion. tom bell &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&cetera: Poetry at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/publicat.html Gallery - Metaphor/Metonym for Health at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/metaphor/metapho.htm Health articles at http://psychology.healingwell.com/ Reviews at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/reviews.htm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 22:59:54 -0400 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: the BIG BIG BIG lie...3 Repeat Repeat Repeat....i don't have the sitzfleisch for 509 lines of Baraka..and i'm alternating 'tween the NFL and the play-offs..so let's just stick to ONE line..."why did Sharon stay away"... The Baraka answer is because he knew 9/11 was coming..and his proof is that one Israeli Newspaper is quoted as saying that Sharon cancelled an appointment that day for an "Israeli Day Event" in N.Y.C...no date of newspaper...no direct quote of statement... But let's say it's TRUE..how would that prove Sharon knew about 9/11...was he in actual danger..was he supposed to have a bagel and lox breakfast at W.T.C. at 8:50 that morn..or was he going to be on one of the air-liners that were to be hijacked...he flies on his own plane...and if he didn't... wouldn't he fly on El Al...and as a devious Jew wouldn't it have made more sense to be in NY that day to console the Americans... The BIG BIG BIG LIE...repeat repeat repeat...tell it again, again, again, and as proof offer any incidental fact...Baraka is not a fool..but he is a hater a anti-semite and a poet with a license to kill...DRn... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 16:16:43 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Wystan Curnow (FOA ENG)" Subject: Re: Norman O. Brown dies at age 89 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Thank you, Joe. Before he went to UC Santa Cruz Nobby Brown was teaching at University of Rochester, when I got my first job there. The English Department was OK but the History Department, which is where he taught, as well as Psychology, was exceptional. Hayden White also moved to Santa Cruz from that Department. I never got to know Brown as well as I would have liked--if I had been a student my awe would have had somewhere to go--,but lunched with him a few times, and hung out with the historians. He was an great inspiration to someone like me who wanted to work the disciplinary interstices. Wystan -----Original Message----- From: Safdie Joseph [mailto:Joseph.Safdie@LWTC.CTC.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, 8 October 2002 12:58 p.m. To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Norman O. Brown dies at age 89 Thanks Miekal . . . but this is very sad news indeed. Nobby was an incredible human being -- wise, learned, yet always impish and spritely. I was fortunate enough to be a student of his at UC Santa Cruz, absolutely one of my formative experiences as a poet . . . (if such things happen anymore, or can be categorized as such). When students signed up for his History of Consciousness class at UC Santa Cruz in the fall of 1973, none of them, I think, were prepared for an intensive reading of Pound's *Cantos* (it was a two-quarter class, the second being readings in Olson and Duncan); the final assignment for the class was to write our own cantos. I still remember, as if it were yesterday, one of his rambling lectures about why there were two myths of Dionysus' birth . . . at one point he stopped talking and walked to the window and looked out, the class completely hushed . . . and he said "Greece is a long way from Monterey Bay" . . . After I'd graduated, I kept in touch, and at one point wrote him a long rambling (stoned) letter after re-reading everything he'd written, and demanded at the end "Where are your poems?" (The last line of *Love's Body" is "All is a metaphor, there is only poetry"). He was unbearably gracious, writing back that "perhaps, one day" he would have some poems to show; it was the most gentle come-uppance I think I've ever received. His last book, *Apocaclypse and/or Metamorphosis" (mentioned in that obituary) contains some amazing essays about Islam (which he decided to "do" after the Iranian hostage crisis in 1979), as well as reflections about socialist politics and poetry after the fall of the Berlin Wall (heavy on Zukofsky). It's well-worth checking out, as are his previous books . . . God, it hurts. He was wonderful. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 20:33:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dcmb Subject: Re: I just spoke with Murat Nemet-Nejat on the phone MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Gary, thank you very much for the piece you did on my work. I am glad to hear you think this makes it meet for the Present. an E-mail you posted to the Buffalo List today sounds in a coiple places like it was meant for me--but that's how one can develop "ideas of reference" when onne chooses to be represented by a big T! I am sending you a copy of "As in 'T' as in 'Tether'". That is, I will, if you will email me your snail address. And thanks again. David -----Original Message----- From: Gary Sullivan To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Monday, October 07, 2002 1:49 PM Subject: I just spoke with Murat Nemet-Nejat on the phone >How deliciously mundane--as a poodle or moodring--the fact that Murat works >a mere 10 blocks from me in New York's bustling midtown. (Why, I have even >"run into" him on the street!) I have no idea where he went to >school--although he's told me repeatedly. Murat and I share a love of hard >alcohol and eggplant (although he's not quite the Baba Ganoush fiend I am), >and though we do plan to meet for dinner tonight before Kevin and Dodie's >reading at the Project, it's doubtful we'll wind up anywhere that serves >really outstanding zaalouk , >let alone raki . > >Murat speaks in fabulously glowing "crop circles" of verbs, prepositions, >nouns ... and more nouns! If you spoke with him, you would perhaps not think >of "crop circles"--except, oh! I have "planted" them in your mind! How could >you not, now! He has a number of books forthcoming soon--including a >long-awaited tome from Talisman of translations from contemporary Turkish >poetry and an equally long-awaited essay on photography from Green Integer. >Murat--whose each name ends with a "T"--chose these presses because *they* >include the letter "T" in them as well! Is he out of his mind? We are >meeting outside St. Mark's Bookstore--conveniently situated at the "T" of >9th Street and Third Avenue. I associate Murat's voice with Turkey, not >simply because he was born there, but because, it too features the letter >"T"--so prominently! > >Oh, if only you could hear Murat, his "T"s flying off his tongue--such sweet >tintinnabulation, and never tatterdemalian! Oh, if only, if only he were not >such a Tease! > > ___________ > / Call me! \ > """""" /My cell Phone\ > "" "" "" ( number is ... ) > "" _ _ "" \ oh ... um _/ > "-(o)(o)-" // > { .. } // > ( .__. ) > \____/ > [>||<] > ========== > == ===""= == > == === = == > == ====== == > /_} | __ | {_\ > " | || | "[::]- > | || | > |_||_| > _# #_ > /__)(__\ > > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. >http://www.hotmail.com > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 01:14:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: quick kill someone MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII quick kill someone k3% saddam hussein iksh: saddam: not found k4% s a homicidal k4% dictator s ksh: is: k5% who is addicted sondheim ttyr3 Oct sondheim 7 ttyr3 22:55 Oct (mailhost.nyf.org) 7 k6% to weapons of k6% mass-destruction to to: k7% the danger k7% already danger significant is the: k8% k8% and and it it grows grows worse worse with with time time and: k9% k9% confront confront him him before before he he even even stronger stronger confront: you have mail in you k10% learned we've that learned iraq that has iraq trained has el trained qaeda el members qaeda k10% members we've > bomb making can can decide decide on on any any given given day day provide > biological provide weapon a group to terrorists smoking gun could come form come mushroom cloud. the smoking gun could come in form of mushroom cloud. *** both chambers are expected to give the authority to the president to pull the trigger. you have mail in you === _____ _ _ # > # __/\__ |___ | / / | __/\__ |___ | / / | # > # \ / / /____| | | \ / / /____| | | # > # /_ _\ / /_____| | | /_ _\ / /_____| | | # > # | | \ / / /____| | | # > # /_ _\ / /_____| | | /_ _\ / /_____| | | # > # | | \ / / /____| | | # > # /_ _\ / /_____| | | /_ _\ / /_____| | | # > # | | \ / / /____| | | # > # /_ _\ / /_____| | | /_ _\ / /_____| | | # > # _____ _ _ # > # __/\__ |___ | / / | __/\__ |___ | / / | # > # \ / / /____| _____ _ _ # > # __/\__ |___ | / / | __/\__ |___ | / / | # > # \ / / /____| | | \ / / /____| | | # > # /_ _\ / /_____| | | /_ _\ / /_____| \/ /_/ |_|_| \/ /_/ |_|_| # > # # > # # > #1.7.100(today="7-11.00 > # \ / / /____| | | \ / / /____| | | # > # \ / / /____| | | \ / / /____| | | # > > > Thank you for participating in 7-11 MAILING LIST > SUBSCRIBER SATISFACTION SURVEY. > > > > > ###################################################### > #1.7.100(today="7-11.00 071101010 07110101 0711.00100# > # # > # _____ _ _ _____ _ _ # > # __/\__ |___ | / / | __/\__ |___ | / / | # > # \ / / /____| | | \ / / /____| | | # > # /_ _\ / /_____| | | /_ _\ / /_____| | | # > # \/ /_/ |_|_| \/ /_/ |_|_| # > # # > # # > #1.7.100(today="7-11.00 071101010 07110101 0711.00100# > ########### http://mail.ljudmila.org/mailman/listinfo/7-11 _____ _ _ # > # __/\__ |___ | / / | __/\__ |___ | / / | # > # \ / / /____|################################################################## >## ############ ########## # ### ### ## ###### > #### ###### #### #### ###### ############## ###### > # #### ##### #### ########## ###### ### ####### > > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 23:50:47 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew Rathmann Subject: Re: Perelman's interview, Crap, etc. In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I think that academe discredits itself when it mistakes its role: teachers, even when they are also scholars, are the transmitters and analysts of culture, not its makers. That is why writers and artists have traditionally had to leave academe in order to make new work. Pound and Eliot, you recall, started out as grad students but then left in order to seek the real center of literary activity in their time -- even though that meant finding alternative means of existence, and doing so in a foreign country. Now, though, it seems that no one ever graduates from college (to quote Ashbery). It occurs to me that a real conservative would _encourage_ the massive schooling of artists, because that would be the best way to insure that praxis would conform to a common standard of taste, which is, sort of, what we have today. Maybe the great academies of European painting, or the "schools" that formed around individual masters, provide a comparison to the institutional styles of poetry writing available today. My opinion, Joe Amato, is that it's not a question of finding an _alternative_ institution for poetry. To institute is to create statutes, norms of discourse, criteria for tenure, etc... Leave that to the police, as Foucault I think said. Or there's that sticker I saw on a bike the other day here in Eugene (anarchist central): "Civilization... Just walk away." I exaggerate, but you catch my drift. The Right's attack on the Academic-Professional Left (and vice versa) is, I think, a duel of sanctimonies. Bill Bennett may have the ear of Dick Cheney, but there are 2000 colleges and universities in the U.S., each brimming with astonishingly like-minded faculty. There may be, as Maria Damon asserts, bad consequences for education funding, professors' work conditions, etc. But I think it is wrong to assume that a powerful educational apparatus is necessarily good for the making of new poetry. Indeed, and it kills me to say this, the decadence of the university may be a good thing for poetry insofar as it pushes writers into a more independent position. Adorno's thesis, as presented by Nick Piombino, is that criticizing what is self-evidently garbage does not make you a builder of civilization: it just makes you a garbageman -- and a barbarian, too, if you think that you deserve credit for pointing out the obvious. The war should have been the broom that swept away both the garbage and the garbagemen: both bourgeois thought and its Fascist and Stalinist alternatives. Instead, Adorno sees that his countrymen are building VW Beetles and buying Beatles records (or whatever). I think his disillusionment is bracing, but the example of Milosz (who personally witnessed the carnage) shows that interesting poetry can come out of even that kind of thinking; indeed, accepting the garbage thesis may be the minimal prerequisite for good writing of any kind, today. Yet think how we congratulate ourselves for refusing to buy the official line. Adorno would be contemptuous of that kind of garbageman's self-flattery, wouldn't he? Andy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 21:26:59 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: Perelman's interview, Crap, etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Andy. You present some of the eternal "conundrums". We need the culture of the academe: we need the "garbage" and the so-called "bad culture and the good (the "high" and the "low" - yes, even some of the corruption - and yet in many ways we become accomplices in that culture even as we ("innocently"? is there any innocence) write say a poem like ..what, say a typical Ashbery poem ...many of which one feels JA could keep on writing forever: now nothing wrong with that per se. Paradoxically to critique the culture and to be "on the outer" we have to know or have known the "inner" so many of us in "attacking" so-called academics partake of and enhance both the high and the low so to speak: we cant escaoppe the language and its social-political immplicatios, we cant escape the memories of Auschwitz ...in a sense (the good one I hope) we are all intellectuals and academics - we are Homo Thinkins in fact. Baraka - dreaded name - but the point is he went to university: now he might be contemptuous of "liberal studies" but I would disagree: I think the universities and even "tenure" are essential: this doesnt preclude failed academics such as myself dabbliing in poetry and some incoherent poetics and pot shotting and writing on "the oputside" (If I/we/they am/are). We need the academe if only to cruitque it: we even need Harold Bloom and Helen Vendler...we may not "need" he cult of the genius...but its hard to fiid a pure "working class" poetry.....bush poets as I call them are invariably boring: or often are, we need academicswho ahve left ethhalls of acadeeme sure...but we also need to support the funding of the universities and the academy and academics themselves: but that world of the academe needs constantly to be challenged, as I think we see it is, this doesnt mean rejection of course: Eliot and Pound decided against staying inside the halls of academe and maybe that's good for many but we cant all be Ed Dorns or Jack Spicers or whoever (and are anyof us ever really "outside" ..we can always use a universiitylibrary, talk to academics)...Ashbery was Havard educated ...there is no question that MOST of the major poets have been university educated: the problem arises of the politics intra the universities, funding, what is valorised, what emphasised: C K Stead of NZ left the Uni of Auck but Michelle Leggott and a quite different poet Vincent O'Sullivan are still very much in the academic role(s) and so on. I couldnt get to Perelman's interview online but I feel that we need poets to be paid (albeit that _can _ lead to a certain ossification or conseravtism: but that doesnt need to happen: it gives a certian kind of temperament the opportunity to write without having to earn a crust (in deadening and menial work or just tedious work ...given that certain academic work can also be quite onerous..then the solution would be to have writers who do none of the menial tasks of marking essays etc and have a big fredom to write and research: and to give lectures when they wish)) as long as we resist the tendency toward heiarchies and so on. It is hard to say how much an "institutional" writer is shaped or moulded into a certain style or lack of style....a clear example of a writer "outside" is Faulkner, but there are counter examples: I feel that Beryyman wasnt 'blocked" or even badly influenced either by his great erudition (and also fortuantely by his ufortunate affair(s) with the bottle (women), or the fact that he was a lecturer (often on Shakespear I believe eg)).. True, academics are largely the teachers of culture, but they an also be its transmitters. As to the "massive schooling of artists" I think that is a double-edged weapon and could be used by conservatives but could also, properly managed, be enhancing for literary culture. Richard Taylor. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Rathmann" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 8:50 PM Subject: Re: Perelman's interview, Crap, etc. > I think that academe discredits itself when it mistakes its role: teachers, even when they are also scholars, are the transmitters and analysts of culture, not its makers. That is why writers and artists have traditionally had to leave academe in order to make new work. Pound and Eliot, you recall, started out as grad students but then left in order to seek the real center of literary activity in their time -- even though that meant finding alternative means of existence, and doing so in a foreign country. Now, though, it seems that no one ever graduates from college (to quote Ashbery). > > It occurs to me that a real conservative would _encourage_ the massive schooling of artists, because that would be the best way to insure that praxis would conform to a common standard of taste, which is, sort of, what we have today. Maybe the great academies of European painting, or the "schools" that formed around individual masters, provide a comparison to the institutional styles of poetry writing available today. > > My opinion, Joe Amato, is that it's not a question of finding an _alternative_ institution for poetry. To institute is to create statutes, norms of discourse, criteria for tenure, etc... Leave that to the police, as Foucault I think said. Or there's that sticker I saw on a bike the other day here in Eugene (anarchist central): "Civilization... Just walk away." I exaggerate, but you catch my drift. > > The Right's attack on the Academic-Professional Left (and vice versa) is, I think, a duel of sanctimonies. Bill Bennett may have the ear of Dick Cheney, but there are 2000 colleges and universities in the U.S., each brimming with astonishingly like-minded faculty. There may be, as Maria Damon asserts, bad consequences for education funding, professors' work conditions, etc. But I think it is wrong to assume that a powerful educational apparatus is necessarily good for the making of new poetry. Indeed, and it kills me to say this, the decadence of the university may be a good thing for poetry insofar as it pushes writers into a more independent position. > > Adorno's thesis, as presented by Nick Piombino, is that criticizing what is self-evidently garbage does not make you a builder of civilization: it just makes you a garbageman -- and a barbarian, too, if you think that you deserve credit for pointing out the obvious. The war should have been the broom that swept away both the garbage and the garbagemen: both bourgeois thought and its Fascist and Stalinist alternatives. Instead, Adorno sees that his countrymen are building VW Beetles and buying Beatles records (or whatever). I think his disillusionment is bracing, but the example of Milosz (who personally witnessed the carnage) shows that interesting poetry can come out of even that kind of thinking; indeed, accepting the garbage thesis may be the minimal prerequisite for good writing of any kind, today. Yet think how we congratulate ourselves for refusing to buy the official line. Adorno would be contemptuous of that kind of garbageman's self-flattery, wouldn't he? > > Andy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 03:47:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Spiral Bridge Subject: An Evening in the Museum, The Rutgers Geology Museum MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Spiral Bridge Writers Guild requests your presence as we present another = evening of reverberations of the soul...=20 Please join us this Wednesday night in The Rutgers Geology Museum when = we gather to go back to basics for two hours. Relate to your own life = through the harvests of someone else's and find your place somewhere = between the listening ear and the voice that employs it. Come and allow = yourself to be reminded why you are here, why you were there, and why = you will be as bare bones are exposed and all else but words falls away. = We shall surely be reminded why it is we take the time to gather after = all. Wednesday, October 9th=20 Open mic.=20 Free=20 Please view the web site for directions. The Rutgers Geology Museum College Ave. & Hamilton St New Brunswick, NJ Phone: (732) 932-7243 7pm sharp www.spiralbridge.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 10:17:20 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lakey Teasdale Subject: all the evidence weighed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit all the evidence weighed 1. the jury having considered all the evidence returned in their time and 2. it is second sight. something some one tells her she has done it again. 3. Oh! No! You snotty thing! She has half-told the whole plot glot the SORRY or whole told the half-told. STOP. STOP. 4. Well. Slap her face &/or gag her. Shut that woman up. Change her name & signature to: MERCIFULLY SILENT 5. She will go to far in the stranger's car she will expose too much in the front seat, thigh. Sigh Oh. My My. 6. Quelle shock!! Mon dieu and all that. she will and she will not use language to describe something resembling a CLOCK. 7. I would like, milord to place before you Exhibit A this is her famous watch and/or that she wore. 8. the one The hands stuck years ago the batteries still rhyme and brother can you spare a chime? 9. And she would like to Polish the mirrors and she would like to mount the Count and count herself lucky in pearls be- fore swine. The swine. 10. say in her defence she is defenceless. 11. Hasn't touched an excuse in forty years and at least two of those after the mast. Let's say she says SHE DID IT. Let's say: THE SNIPE STOOD ON THE BURNING DECK &/OR IN THE GUTTER GRIPING &/OR CHECKING OUT THE VIEW FROM ANOTHER PERSPECTIVE: THE ROOM AT THE TOP but I digress: 12. and love is but the watch that watches, clocks the stop the gap just tempo- rar-i-ly and how. 13. You may wish to rationalise this turn it, turn it up-side inside-out- and-down 14. It is true the story. The hands actually got stuck in Barcelona and when she returned she heard 15. the faint hum of the batteries. Truth! and not a lie You see my unfortunate client, you see, my un- Fortunately, we got your drift. 16. Move on Move on. 17. Turn it into logic. Canon law to be judiciously broken move on direction FORGET IT FORGET IT FORGET ALL ABOUT IT you old che bellissimo you and you and you and you and you and carissimo perfection. Oh, yes. Your friendly fire. Oh yes. Your ice. 18. And the end of course, if you so find her guilty as charged is that a ten year stretch with its own chamber pot. 19. words &or in chokey & solitary a lite-rar(e)-y eye kept on & a crit-i-cal fly on the pri- son wall. Son. 20. CONDEMNED TO A PREDICAMENT. 21. And the charge against my unfortunate, my unfortun- ate. Yeah, OK. We can see the misfortune though Fortune fortune be her FORTUNE MY FOE 22. Basically the charge against her believe it or not is that she tried and/or exposed an 23. ART PART BODY SWAT got it back to front removed her & tried to expose her heart & carelessly as carelessly as love oh love that careless 24. VERY CARELESSLY i.e. exposed. The highbrow lowlife. The shameless hussy. Oh. Tell me that you're mine. 25. And this traces back, this traces back. These traces: traced to my disgraced and unfor- tunate client's, my unfortunate client's dreams. map The well at her feet, the well-well mapped at her feet 26. and clothed or not in her velvet gown the lining silk the gold the fold the air patchouli annointed and/or ready 27. or not. not the knot. not the splice knot the not. The knot. Not. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 03:09:14 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: teddy warburg Comments: To: 7-11@mail.ljudmila.org, ImitationPoetics@listserv.unc.edu, o-o@konf.lt, webartery@yahoogroups.com, syndicate@anart.no, _arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au, owner-realpoetik@scn.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit TEDDY WARBURG ATMOSPHERE #0015 [excerpt] www.voice-of-the-village.com Saturday eight guns fucking hot heard door open voice said bartender told wanted hot the moment victory while charging too far markets the United States unscrupulous energy Queen Margaret when she woman finds that sex the value lumber her pussy she looked trousers which confirmed what the southern extremity the island with inhabitants lower down the Ural river its present the Hermitage which was the residence President Andrew point nearly forgot for her pussy for gates surmounted stone wall stood family arms supported two see Transactions the New Zealand Institute New Zealand end the chance that way out domestic strife might schism which other race the Pacific came an end it must come an end Just got word base jar heads the middle the century maxims never fails present those seek guidance one who spoke turning new leaf some date future will Veal thing rare all circumstances time acquaintance relation unawares Exert yourself very second significant thing Swamiji Sannyasin one revered many The when they had reached the gates London Audley the farrier exponent Advaita Vedanta lay such emphasis diary routine self-made betrayed them the king who promptly beheaded them and set success life etc movie playing mind kept drifting off bedroom wondering surprise Maya-Vadins rule negate very existence Articles which national convention and Pitt proposed and carried Vyavaharic his doctor shrugged shoulders know far justified saying much world itself sound reason Advaita-Siddhi climax one going screen all think black guy's big fat long cock highest pinnacle grand culmination crowning glory spiritual life last word realization Vedantin such matter glib talk lofty presumption gates surmounted stone wall stood family arms supported two sundry One first render himself fit receive the hands the faction which Bishop immediately felt was because dizzy truth preparing mind through life discipline regulation Breaking through cobwebs Mayaic illusion joking matter Every moment life every ray mind every faculty assault basic plan indicates chemical fire support provided resolutely directed towards task freeing yourself coils narrow egoistic personality earnest seeker gates surmounted stone wall stood family arms supported two difficulties obstacles very real indeed Details discipline very very practical Theory will only serve inspire guide practical exertion crouch constricting dick her rochelle's cunt hard fast warm gradually step step turns theory fact often says one realm Those who had better conception its hoarse explanation Ladder Yoga step step process vigilance conservation energy profitable utilization time gates surmounted stone wall stood family arms supported two paramount importance of them assault basic plan indicates chemical fire support provided unknown Nashville one the foremost strength beat down adherenf yielded and made public complaint directed include mica glaucophane unscrupulous energy Queen Margaret when she woman finds that sex sericite-schists unscrupulous energy Queen Margaret when she woman finds that sex slates there There contents ministers Empson and Dudley whose heads flung the numerous inscriptions the highest historical value Mademoiselle said wildly taking hand spoke love love result mainly due the general support given its agrarian violent man pulling wire three sported thin Cambrésis with painful disorder Faction which his enemies when there were three changes ministry Mr Pickwick fully occupied falling disentangling himself little slut cum for in was created earl Wilmington title which bedroom hear talking someone hear saying drank bear watched porn Boscobel children feel suicidal some children works well child observed opened unscrupulous energy Queen Margaret when she woman finds that sex Buford Belmont unscrupulous energy Queen Margaret when she woman finds that sex Radnor three overtures played the her thighs capturing whose views answered precisely the views Palace reveal undeniable they couldn't automatic radio retransmission Wire may employed austere basis December January served reveal once took down long molten bronze eyes also appeared smooth devoid expression her hands never before displayed Their old asked Frank middle lamaze his word both respects caused his own old tutor Adrian Nadja men watched silence divorce the next seven years slender ground trusting suffrages member for Middlesex The House themunicipal Corpus Christi Board far know white banner Joan had been well supported her Depot emma inhaled sharply she houses and the Five Mile Act forbade the earls Arundel and unscrupulous energy Queen Margaret when she woman finds that sex has reddish-bank mid-December January coldest Rishikesh those early years chipjack interface set back skull Afterwards the constant and speckled with yellowish something that might help is very holy place Hindu pilgrimage assault basic plan indicates chemical fire support provided from energy fused together the inspiration patriotism conquered her legs her his word both respects caused his own old tutor Adrian Nadja first year before Knowledge this scheme said have made escape? lodging-house week Through this eyes her skin flawlessly saw that lani his word both respects caused his own old tutor Adrian Nadja the have been Suddenly eyes watching hands fact his tongue swept her that the motion this themselves realize Unwittingly playing Shadow's hands forcing neglected despised listened impatiently sympathy that it was regarded for that matter liaison advisory capacity Fire Support Group fire support group out induced the certain aspects movement subtle Prana because Prana connected descendant had neither Edward's sloth nor Henry's moderation their forces Sir Henry Herefordshire was the sister the last earl March-now placed fled her ears --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.393 / Virus Database: 223 - Release Date: 9/30/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 07:08:57 -0400 Reply-To: ron.silliman@gte.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Subject: Recently on the Blog MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =EF=82=A7 Eliot Weinberger on Objectivism, the New American Poetry & the = 1950s =EF=82=A7 Reading The Actualist Anthology 25 years later =EF=82=A7 Poetry & the problem of themes: the examples of Chain & = Poetics Journal =EF=82=A7 Poetry & the problem of themes: Amiri Baraka blows up America =EF=82=A7 Kit Robinson=E2=80=99s The Crave =EF=82=A7 David Bromige=E2=80=99s As in T as in Tether =EF=82=A7 3 readings in NYC, October 15 & 16 =EF=82=A7 Why somebody needs to edit an anthology of the Spicer Circle =EF=82=A7 Lorine Niedecker & Besmilr Brigham =EF=82=A7 Anselm Hollo=E2=80=99s latest collection of sonnets =EF=82=A7 Michael Lally=E2=80=99s anthology None of the Above =E2=80=93 = Reconstructing the 1970s =EF=82=A7 Poetry as conflict All at Silliman's Blog http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 00:18:54 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: the big lie MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There's a lot of anti-communst and quite simply racist anti Chinese propaganda so I cant believe anything of your theory of China, sorry. The CIA has always funded anti communist and especially anti -Rissian and anti China reports and books and even whole courses at Harvard and elsewhere...check out if possible your friend: he's possibly funded by the CIA. I debate the nonsense about Tibet which is a very reactionary country that had the Dali Lama in charge who is nut case and a probably a crook. But the comparison with China: China in international affairs has always supported liberal and democratic and great revolutionary movements such as that by Ho Chi Minh. They stay out of interference in oustide politics. It is a greatly progessive and progressed country unlike the US which is rotting with the mire of arrogance and the sins of indulgence and lust and the bombing and infiltration interference of other countries and destabilisation and so on and will sink ultimately into the Hell of its own self-devastation: the Chinese on the other hand are by and large a happy, stable country, wih happy people living there.No snipers or Church burners or shool massacres over there! My mate went there: marvellous openness and liveliness (India by contrast with its corrupt "democracy" (full of "moc")): now I find the Indians of India by contrast a possibly dubious and glum lot who never smile and are always winging about prices) and people talking openly on every subject. He felt safer in China than in NZ or Australia (where he's from) where they murder Aboriginees: or have done...Baraka by the way points to the US genocide of the American Indians ( the 4000 keeps away part is only a bit of rhetoric I suspect) ...But China: No Trade Towers bursting in he violet air over there! Study the philosophy of Mao Tse Tung and read more about politics. Dont just listen to me: work in factories and experience real hardships as I have: academics and psychoanalysts and academics and Jewish haberdashers like Monsieur Harienne Nudelski Etal are cosseted in NY and (the psychoanalyists ) make money out of the misery of capitalism so they (subconciously perhaps) dont want it to change: hence there rather non-commital political stance and Nudelski's extreme right wing views. Most Tibetans are glad to be with China: they are loyal. Richard Taylor. Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Allen Bramhall" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 3:13 PM Subject: Re: the big lie > believing that tibet has always been a part of china is basicly ignoring > the > fact that it was independant, though it did have close ties with china > developed during the 5th and 6th centuries in particular. > a million tibetans dead or missing, thousands jailed without so much as a > hearing for years--torture as the rule rather than the exception. these are > facts. documented facts. > as for mongolia, sorry, your'e sadly mistaken. i have a friend, living in > canada, was a physicist. he spent two years in a chinese prison before even > having a hearing. his crime ? he brought a newspaper into the country. one > newspaper. yep, thats all. two years, finally freed to be exiled from his > family and country for life. he considers himself lucky to have gotten out, > with the help of amnesty international. this is a documented case. > thats the enlightened goverment you speak so highly of, richard. > china has no more integrity than any other country and a history of starting > guerilla wars in the countries it borders, destablizing those countries, > then coming in when the goverments collapse. if you want to see this in > progress, check out whats happening in nepal. > as for the statement that 'china is relatively uncorrupt' everyone i know > from china says the goverment is corrupt. > i would also stress that i am not comparing the united states to any > country, waving the flag of colonializm in drag, so to speak. > your statement : > quote : > the present western backed ractionaries in Tibet musd be kept > "down" aslso > any in Mongolia: > is very familar to me. substitute 'women' or ' niggers' in place of > tibetans > or mongolians and we've heard it before in this country during the 60's and > seventies. you can still hear it south of the mason dixon line. > intolerance, bigotry, viewing people as objects rather living beings, > ignorance, thats what blew up america, richard. > i'll refrain from the name calling you've indulged in, honest dscourse and > diverse viewpoints being my goal. > be well, > beth garrison > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "richard.tylr" > > To: "Allen Bramhall" > > Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 8:54 PM > > Subject: Re: the big lie > > > > > > > I see he need for China to keep its integrity and they dont need the > > > reactionaries in Tibet to subvert their state which has always had > Tibet: > > > the present western backed ractionaries in Tibet musd be kept "down" > aslso > > > any in Mongolia: it doeesnt amatter how many may or may have not been > > > killed: he alternative is the kind of rwars and embargoes that US get > into > > > and the major imperiaists which cause daily the deaths of thousands: the > > > point is that China is a powerful State, relatively uncrorupt, and > > > independent (they even have their own computer which is in Chinese, > > designed > > > in China, they have Stealth bombers, huge undergound resistance and > > ICBMS - > > > watch out Uncle Sam!!) China, like much of the world doesnt need the US: > > > this is he point, the US is now anout to go ahead with another war - > they > > > must have prosecuted about 100 to China's one (in fact I cant recall > China > > > since 1949 being involved in any outside wars so i think you are talking > > > rubbish...I do recall they sent taechniciansrto help tanzania no strings > > > attached which the US bever does (they always charge) (minor and > > basically > > > benign) occupation of Mongolia. Would the US pull out of Turkey, Saudi > > > Arabia, Afgahanistan, Palestine (via Israel), Pakistan and even > Australia? > > > They have quite got NZ in the bag we are resisting their arrogant call > to > > > allow nuclear powered ships so far thank Christ. > > > > > > The Chinese are no fools. They long ago got ready for an US invasion in > > fact > > > they fought the US off in the 50s (the Korean war was a front for an > > > invasion of China to destroy that workers democratic state)...No your > weak > > > bourgeious protestations move me not. Richard taylor. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Allen Bramhall" > > > To: > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 2:42 AM > > > Subject: Fw: the big lie > > > > > > > > > > Subject: re: the big lie > > > > > > > > > > > > > 'Thank God China has kept the US out. The US will never mess with > > China. > > > > If > > > > > they did they would actually have to have a real war...not this > > gutless > > > > > bombing of weak countries and the killing of women and children and > > > anyone > > > > > else as they always do. You are obviously very poorly read in > > political > > > > > matters. Richard Taylor.' > > > > > > > > > > > > > my god, richard ! > > > > holding up china as a role model....good lord, do you have _any_ idea > at > > > all > > > > what they > > > > have done to mongolia and tibet ? the millions dead and misplaced ? > the > > > > thousands slaving in dentention camps ? state sponsored torture ? > > > > > > > > it was a poem about intolerance. it was a poem about how we all seem > to > > > > have > > > > our own brand of intolerance. all of us. none of us escapes the brush > > with > > > > extinction. none. > > > > > > > > beth garrison > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 07:24:15 -0400 Reply-To: Allen Bramhall Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Allen Bramhall Subject: Tibet's cup of coffee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit apt frantic lift off in the morning. the other shore looks a beaut. regions maximize in eyes, the startling sea seems gimpy. a poser rests in Tibet, that's my bridge. your bridge is sent from explaining this minor point. in the midst of these congeries, a stylized lighthouse, more morose than usual spans of time. usual people expound their heft, their grammar, their sockful of sonnets. other people name a proper noun, going home for the evening. the evening is gone, devastated is a right. the sky is a blue that can be drawn into the conversation. you were strong and I was reading. Tibet is a better front than many, heard about the length of days. in the ocean's purview, rhymes exist and serve sonnets. sonnets die for fame, so hear a sonnet dying. wind elevates crystals of sand into reports to carry. in your dreams you write more sonnets. the same dream plans on Tibet's flower. there was a day in 1982, it was circled with sounds. twenty years later a general dismay with the climbing sea, where sonnets are more famous still. one more death isn't counting much. the love is Tibet next to me at night, not the sport over there. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 07:56:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Perelman's interview, Crap, etc. In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 11:50 PM -0800 10/7/02, Andrew Rathmann wrote: >... I think it is wrong to assume that a powerful educational >apparatus is necessarily good for the making of new poetry. ... as i see it, this is a very different question from whether the leftism of the academy is taken seriously by the governmental right. you may, unfortunately, be right (as in correct) here, but of course there is no relationship between "new poetry" and left politics, as we know from cases like ezra pound and even my beloved gertrude, who, it cannot be denied, was hopelessly naive politically. i think whether or not "new poetry" can flourish or even occur in the academy is very dependent on circumstance. in my experience, universities as workplaces are bureaucracies, more or less receptive to watered-down ideas of "creativity" or "originality" -- and less receptive in english depts than in, say the sciences. however, there is often little relationship between the intellectual lives of the individual faculty members or students and the workings of the bureaucracy. both sides lose, but interesting work can happen in the interstices, margins, what have you. and i know i'm speaking from a particular kind of institution --a "top of the 2nd -rung" land-grant state research university that is the only ph-d granting institution in the state and within a 5-hr driving radius (madison is about a 4-5 hr drive, chicago 8). -- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 05:25:48 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: zip codes 2 Comments: cc: "arc.hive" <_arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au>, cupcake kaleidoscope , Renee , rhizome , wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii 2.) The desperation that is (finally) all love would evolve to a warm mull. Thinking it through to its quick, volcanic, luminous, I would deafen in these catastrophic volumes. I'd take the warp of it in my hand at times, wrap a single thread from apex to shoulderblade. Dressed in it, raining eyes and smoking, it was easily lost in the woof of breaking out. Oh, I can stand it sometimes. After every break-up, getting high in emptying fields: to walk until dawn narrowed the wishing down, and drowning anyone's touch in the high ceilings of hours before. It was a little room, yellow with my lungs. The most appropriate act, as always, would be to swallow. To spit. ===== http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html meditation, net art, poeisis: blog http://lewislacook.blogspot.com/ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 08:48:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Quote du jour MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gerald Stern, a former poet laureate of the state of New Jersey, in commenting on proposed legislation that would give Gov. James E. McGreevey the power to fire Amiri Baraka, the current poet laureate of New Jersey, says, "It's so pathetic in a way. It's such a minor position. It's like legislation to remove the dogcatcher." --NYT, 10/8/02 Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard@earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 23:36:43 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "B.E. Basan" Subject: Re: the BIG BIG BIG lie...3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You know, Harry. I grew up in a family that really disliked Israel as a modern state and made up even more absurd conspiracy theories (something about buying votes for Ronald Reagan, I can't quite remember..). than the one you believe Bakara is guilty of. Anyhow, I never thought we were anti-Semites since we were all Jewish..I wonder if you'd suggest we rethink our position? - Ben ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Nudel" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 11:59 AM Subject: the BIG BIG BIG lie...3 | Repeat Repeat Repeat....i don't have the sitzfleisch for 509 lines of | Baraka..and i'm alternating 'tween the NFL and the play-offs..so let's just | stick to ONE line..."why did Sharon stay away"... | | The Baraka answer is because he knew 9/11 was coming..and his proof is that | one Israeli Newspaper is quoted as saying that Sharon cancelled an appointment | that day for an "Israeli Day Event" in N.Y.C...no date of newspaper...no | direct quote of statement... | | But let's say it's TRUE..how would that prove Sharon knew about 9/11...was | he in actual danger..was he supposed to have a bagel and lox breakfast at | W.T.C. at 8:50 that morn..or was he going to be on one of the air-liners that | were to be hijacked...he flies on his own plane...and if he didn't... wouldn't | he fly on El Al...and as a devious Jew wouldn't it have made more sense to be | in NY that day to console the Americans... | | The BIG BIG BIG LIE...repeat repeat repeat...tell it again, again, again, | and as proof offer any incidental fact...Baraka is not a fool..but he is a | hater a anti-semite and a poet with a license to kill...DRn... | ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 15:38:52 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lakey Teasdale Subject: Virginia charts the course Comments: To: "WRYTING-L : Writing and Theory across Disciplines" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Virginia charts the course the navigation but a dependable in swells the sea that is distant. Island surrounded by surrounded by cities of ash at her feet all domestically tranquil. Cities of tranq- uility. An I? The fashion appears to be. and the plot of the course, but of course, the plotter a basic necessity the pilot automatic the Captain the Skipper skips or misses out a chapter. and grey the grey dusk is the nearly night but not. It is October. Jasmine neither here, nor there where almost recalls and the linger near shore before you cast the forecast in her garden the waters of talk and the ice knots and the spice was Arabian. Nights.old the city The bread from the stone oven the hot bread the zaatar: desire sesame salt and her eyes mysterious shadowed by and outlined in Dining the history splendour and not in bed the next to her that is certainty The mom- entary The vowed monk chastity. Virginia? No. Yes. Indeed. In deed. and the light again was grey and cold and broken in consecutive sentences his hers theirs this is only longing. Longing. the sonnet dies. The net, sewn, lives again. And the son. The sun. And. Son. One can. One writes the notes. The notes are sung. the words the acc- ent overcome. The accent, accidental but never incident. Or all, the incidental. and the sum of both? Parts. Meet & charter(s) the plot where it doesn't and whispers it still and still, the whispers the whispering? Sighs? Whispers still This is the texture of ash. Fine ash. & swells in the grey waves The sea. The listen the cry. The cry. the Tern turns not, it flies not. In your dreams, in your dreams in yours, Virginia flap as you might the wings were silver never gold the blame- less blameless vestal and opened wide the pain of either wider side and either, the Pain. The pane of glass the butterfly upon a the butterfly upon? There was the need/not & hers and there is: the Listen. That welcomes the coming and welcome oh welcome the guest. and the bene- diction and the wine & the bless- ed. There are covenants and/or agreements and the contract of and maybe an other another. And/or one. One. there is yearning. Again. & Gain a yearning gains the blue this thime the sky &/or a jacket of velvet grey. & ice the ice Pewter the sky and the jacket of yearning. And who holds sage? And who was sage? And sage the scent and the sense of the sage And Lo! behold The Guide! and Here is the philosopher! Oh. welcome. Welcome he is blessed who comes. And enters in the grey. The grey dawning. The grey. The old argument the old velvet grey in shreds the shreds a map. the chartered city the dawn great the dawn the charter. Chart- er read: dawn. grey. And the grey. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 23:46:33 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "B.E. Basan" Subject: Lissa Wolsak Follow up MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was just going through the archives today and was wondering, Lawrence, if you had written that review of _Pen Chants_? In fact, I was wondering if ANYONE had written a review? I'd be interested in finding out what others, aside from Andrew Rathmann (though I *did* find his close reading an interesting starting point, not really knowing Susan Howe etc), have said about the book. Thanks, Ben ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 08:35:42 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: Lissa Wolsak Follow up In-Reply-To: <002801c26ed9$7ed5e1e0$e92c4ca5@computer> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I'm writing a review about mysticism and vocabulary in _Pen Chants_, and looking for somewhere to send it. Rgds, Catherine Daly cadaly@pacbell.net -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of B.E. Basan Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 7:47 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Lissa Wolsak Follow up I was just going through the archives today and was wondering, Lawrence, if you had written that review of _Pen Chants_? In fact, I was wondering if ANYONE had written a review? I'd be interested in finding out what others, aside from Andrew Rathmann (though I *did* find his close reading an interesting starting point, not really knowing Susan Howe etc), have said about the book. Thanks, Ben ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 12:39:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: the big lie In-Reply-To: <004001c26ebc$7da57e60$1bec36d2@01397384> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > CIA. I debate the nonsense about Tibet which is a very reactionary country > that had the Dali Lama in charge who is nut case and a probably a crook. > Palden Gyatso Rinpoche is a monk who was imprisoned and tortured, and who bears witness to the above nonsense. Salvador Dali was not a lama. I believe you are referring to the Dalai Lama. Source, please, for nutcase-hood and crook-hood? Gwyn McVay ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 12:44:13 -0400 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: BIG BIG BIG BIG LIE...4.... Repeat Repeat Repeat Repeat..then switch and bait... From a private e noting my limitations as a reader..Baraka only sd Sharon was a right wing general...if Baraka hd sd that Sharon was a murderer...fcuk..terrorist...war criminal...he would have echoed much of what is sd in the left wing Israeli Press...so what...and so what if i think that really applies to Arafat... What he sd...and left as an inuendo..is that Sharon knew about 9/11...that he let thousands of americans die for his devious Zionist Plan...that there was conspiracy between the Zionists and the Americans to let it happen...and of course as we know because Zionists rule the World and now rule America...see today's article on the new Black Panther Party for more of this line of thot.... Ben's dysfunctional Jewish Family is a different kind of bait and switch...i have no idea if they're anti-semitic... i have more nfuf problem with my own dysfunctional J. famille...i don't know them...i never knew all the people who defended the Rosenbergs to the die they opened the Soviet Archives..and what does that have to do with Baraka's anti-semitism... Repeat Repeat Repeat Repait...Lie Lie Lie Lie...bait and switch...as for jewish anti-semitism..let's just leave Gerald Stern floating in the water...DRn... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 12:44:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: Nudel Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Nudel, you are the Kenny G of the Poetics list: relentlessly boring, maliciously off-key, a sad old bugle boy who got no swing. Half a million Harry Nudels couldn't carry Amiri's jock. Take a nap, Grandpa. --Jim Behrle _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 12:55:17 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: the big lie MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Richard, two things about your posts. First, I can not stop myself from reading them, a kind of linguistic addiction you might say. Second, I can not sometimes stop from responding to them. Here it is: > ...But > >China: No Trade Towers bursting in he violet air over there! I thought you said the exploding towers were a thing of beauty; you mean China lacks this kind of beauty? >Study the > >philosophy of Mao Tse Tung and read more about politics. Let a thousand flowers "burst" in the country side? I suppose the Cultural Revolution was the Maoist concept of beauty? >Dont just listen >to > >me: work in factories and experience > >real hardships as I have: If factories are the only places where one experiences real hardships, wouldn't the answer be to have no factories at all? For example, in the United States we should all go to Kansas and plant wheat or corn, or to tobacco or cotton fields in the South. Come to think of it, the new American revolution should involve going back to slavery. >academics and psychoanalysts and academics and > >Jewish haberdashers like Monsieur Harienne Nudelski Etal are cosseted in >NY > >and (the psychoanalyists ) make money out of the misery of capitalism Is your inspiration above Stalin's dissertation on Jewish doctors? Let me e-mail this before I change my mind. Best. Murat ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 10:06:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "J. Scappettone" Subject: Reminder: 21st-Century Poetics Colloquium, this Friday--please announce and distribute Comments: To: Carrjuli Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit The 21st-Century Poetics Working Group is happy to announce our first event of the season-- Readings and a colloquium featuring Beth Anderson and Ange Mlinko Friday, October 11 6:30 p.m. potluck, 8 p.m. readings 900 Bancroft Way (at 7th St.) Beth and Ange will read from their work and address issues surrounding travel writing and vertigo. Beth Anderson is the author of The Habitable World (Instance Press, 2001) and four chapbooks, including The Impending Collision and Hazard. Her poems have appeared or are forthcoming in The Germ, Barrow Street, Hanging Loose, and other journals and in An Anthology of New (American) Poets (Talisman House, 1998). The Habitable World was a finalist manuscript for the National Poetry Series and the Walt Whitman Award. Anderson is also an editor of Subpress, a cooperative small press publisher of poetry. Ange Mlinko's first book of poems was Matinees (Zoland Books, 1999) and her second one is in progress. She was born in Philadelphia and has lived and engaged in alternative poetry scenes in Boston, Providence, and New York City. In 1999 she lived and taught a poetry workshop in the Kingdom of Morocco. She edited The Poetry Project Newsletter from 2000-2002. Participants are asked to help support the series by bringing food or drink or by sticking around to help us clean up. For further information, or to be placed on our mailing list, please contact Carrjuli@aol.com or jscape@socrates.berkeley.edu. This event is free and open to the public. 21st-Century Poetics thanks the Townsend Center and the Department of English for their partial support. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 13:25:13 -0400 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG...lie...5 since this has become an ad hominem argu...a bit dif. form of bait and switch...isn't the real question whether 6 mill. nudels could carry Amiri's Jockstrap... let's get the History straight...Amiri was born to a middle-class family (father postal supervisor ma social worker? teacher?) nudel was born in a displaced person's camp... in summer..1967 Amiri was the toast of Time...the Village Scene plays.readings .etc etc.. nudel was sitting in a Southern La. jail while working for Core... in 1968 Amiri was prob. on one of his innumerable grants... nudel was suspended for the semester for protesting against Dow Chemical... To cut it short in the 30 years since...Amiri has taught at Yale, Berkeley, and as Full time prof at SUNY.. nudel has sold books on the sidewalks of NY... a kat kan look at a king...keep switching and baiting..all 6 mill couldn't be wrong...DRn.. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 12:42:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: Virginia, or the Pot of Basil Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed turn to puns, norms of well-behaved frames confounded falseness begins with LADY GODIVA [Gradiva?] red & nicety by the needle competence too complex to engage the local my lungs eat away at the Psalmist, my common sense tells me "readers are not witnesses" - antecedent twists & turns claim and reclaim Virginia's charms the mark of more than sufficient law is docility letters wronged you, didn't they? I can tell. there's some discrepancy between freedom & biological functions imperialism was touched off by a syrup of violets, illicit gravedigging is thought to be indicative of bolshevism my darling resemblance is a few steps away even a dip in the mirage - O iron collar! - is shaken by occasion the huge interiors shook within the custom sunken functionaries live for her debt fattened that calf the bishop's head hangs from my pommel some trifle sinks heroes into banditry you card, you threw them all into postponing LAVBESP is it contumely or reverence that leaves a souvenir where it lies? a scrap is foreign to its origins - this is very crucial Virginia bore the Old World into her left shoulder cold sweat, what do I owe you now? a name less sick for being forgotten, Virginia, was cut short by waking up early your three little brothers pace a carpet 800 feet long unfortunate & manacled, though always welcome _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 13:44:12 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Interviews? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hello Everyone, I'm collecting interviews with poets, published and unpublished--especially with younger/less established, non-mainstream poets, done since 1990 or so. If you have done one, or been the subject of one, please send me the URL (if it's online) or let me know where it was published (if in print). If it wasn't published, let me know too. Backchannel, please! Thanks, Gary _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 13:47:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brandon Barr Subject: Re: Interviews? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit if you haven't gotten Tod Marshall's _The Range of the Possible_, you must. You won't find it on the shelves at most stores, but here's the amazon.com link: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0910055785/qid=1034099227/sr=8 -1/ref=sr_8_1/102-8097601-3483348?v=glance&n=507846 phenomenal interviews, especially with lee young lee and donald revell. best, brandon barr > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Gary Sullivan > Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 1:44 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Interviews? > > > Hello Everyone, > > I'm collecting interviews with poets, published and > unpublished--especially > with younger/less established, non-mainstream poets, done since > 1990 or so. > If you have done one, or been the subject of one, please send me > the URL (if > it's online) or let me know where it was published (if in print). If it > wasn't published, let me know too. > > Backchannel, please! > > Thanks, > > Gary > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 13:50:31 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: Nudel 2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed This is about Baraka's success and fame and Nudel's lack of success and fame? I guess that's what your recent snide Kenneth Koch and Jackson Mac Low murmurs were about, too? They're famous and you have to sell your books on the street? You had disappeared from this list for a while, I can't say I missed you, Nudel. You spread little joy here, just misdirected bile. Baraka has been clear and apologetic about his anti-semitism. Yours is a tired and punchless tune. Keep your day job. --Jim Behrle _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 12:50:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: Re: Interviews? Comments: cc: mb255@cornell.edu In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Gary. Mairead Byrne and I were interviewed by Kent Johnson in VeRT #6 at http://www.litvert.com/mbgginterv.html Gabe Quoting Gary Sullivan : > Hello Everyone, > > I'm collecting interviews with poets, published and unpublished--especially > with younger/less established, non-mainstream poets, done since 1990 or so. > If you have done one, or been the subject of one, please send me the URL > (if > it's online) or let me know where it was published (if in print). If it > wasn't published, let me know too. > > Backchannel, please! > > Thanks, > > Gary > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx > ------------------------------------------------------------ Illinois State University Webmail https://webmail2.ilstu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 14:18:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: Interviews? In-Reply-To: from "Gary Sullivan" at Oct 8, 2002 01:44:12 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gary, here are the interviews from the first 10 issues of COMBO: COMBO 1: Harryette Mullen / interviewed by Michael Magee, Farah Griffin & Kristen Gallagher COMBO 3: Alice Notley / interviewed by Sean Walker and Heather Starr COMBO 5: Bill Berkson / interviewed by Michael Magee COMBO 6: Michael Magee / interviews himself interviewing himself COMBO 8: Alex Katz / interviewed by Abigail Susik COMBO 10: Carla Harryman / interviewed by Michael Magee & Jacques Debrot I've also interviewed James Tate if you're interested and COMBO 12 will hopefully include an interview with Heather Fuller which Kristen Gallagher and I have just begun conducting. and for what it's worth, Chris McCreary interviewed me in Ixnay #7. -m. According to Gary Sullivan: > > Hello Everyone, > > I'm collecting interviews with poets, published and unpublished--especially > with younger/less established, non-mainstream poets, done since 1990 or so. > If you have done one, or been the subject of one, please send me the URL (if > it's online) or let me know where it was published (if in print). If it > wasn't published, let me know too. > > Backchannel, please! > > Thanks, > > Gary > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 11:50:26 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mister Kazim Ali Subject: Re: Interviews? In-Reply-To: <1034099449.3da31af98244d@webmail2.ilstu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Once I was interviewed by Yoko Ono in my dreams. Have you seen the horizon lately? --- Gabriel Gudding wrote: > Hi Gary. Mairead Byrne and I were interviewed by > Kent Johnson in VeRT #6 at > http://www.litvert.com/mbgginterv.html > > Gabe > > Quoting Gary Sullivan : > > > Hello Everyone, > > > > I'm collecting interviews with poets, published > and unpublished--especially > > with younger/less established, non-mainstream > poets, done since 1990 or so. > > If you have done one, or been the subject of one, > please send me the URL > > (if > > it's online) or let me know where it was published > (if in print). If it > > wasn't published, let me know too. > > > > Backchannel, please! > > > > Thanks, > > > > Gary > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print > your photos: > > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Illinois State University Webmail https://webmail2.ilstu.edu ===== "As to why we remain:/we're busy now/waiting behind bolted doors/for the season that will not pass/to pass" --Rachel Tzvia Back, "Azimuth," Sheep Meadow Press __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 12:01:15 -0700 Reply-To: antrobin@clipper.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anthony Robinson Subject: jumping in the sonnet fray In-Reply-To: <00c901c26e8e$f80ce040$30343544@rthfrd01.tn.comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sonnet on the Inside of my Ribcage O silly O silly O fusty We own nothing and we most For this don’t “pretend”… That is, your this and that are flailing On the socket. Open the port Hole. You are not going (uh-oh & squeak) You are not getting. (ka-thump!) See the world, San Francisco (zero grade problem—finance, heartwork, sleeping in the park) Land of the Kangaroo, go down. Since you sissy, following, since You naked stamping, sister sister Give me a space just this big. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 13:29:11 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: derek beaulieu Subject: whitewall of sound - canadian concrete - a call MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hi; i am the guest editor of jim clinefelter's "whitewall of sound" #33 (portland, OR) - a special issue dedicated to Canadian concrete and visual poetry. i am currently accepting submissions for consideration - preferably via email (.jpeg files please) - of concrete/visual poetry or text based work which addresses canadian concrete (ie: articles, reviews, statements, queries, etc - in particluar articles which address women in concrete/visual poetry, quebecois visual work, certain small press like silver birch, berkeley horse, grOnk, blewointment, etc. to discuss specific topics, please contact me). if you are interested, please send work to me at the below address; the deadline is approx the end of nov (but sooner is better) thanks! derek beaulieu 1339 19th ave nw calgary alberta canada t2m1a5 derek@housepress.ca www.housepress.ca 403-234-0336 (p) 403-282-2229 (f) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 12:44:41 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Del Ray Cross Subject: SHAMPOO Issue 14 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dear Bathtub Attendants, You should grab the new SHAMPOO issue 14 to clean your hairs. Wow, at www.ShampooPoetry.com there are sudsy new poems by Mark Young, Kirby Wright, Leigh White, Matthew Wascovich, Lisa Walsh, Glen Sorestad, Willie Smith, Phoebe Sayornis, Suzy Saul, Michael Rothenberg, Anthony Robinson, Barbara Jane Reyes, Lori Quillen, Chad Parenteau, Gina Myers, K. Silem Mohammad, Kevin McFadden, Bill Luoma, Andrew Lundwall, Lesle Lewis, Cassie Lewis, Lewis LaCook (yes, the Lewis issue), Richard Kostelanetz, Tasha Klein, J. E. June, Jim Jenkins, Crag Hill, Jonathan Hayes, Gwynne Garfinkle, Andrew Felsinger, Michael Farrell, kari edwards, TJ Desc, Mark DeCarteret, Todd Colby, Adam Clay, and Jim Behrle, along with iambic SHAMPOOart by Kara L.C. Jones. And many thanks to Cassie Lewis for her editorial help with this issue! It cleans well and is so inexpensive! Lather up, Del Ray Cross, Editor SHAMPOO clean hair / good poetry www.ShampooPoetry.com (if you'd prefer not to receive these notices, please let me know) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 15:35:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: Re: Interviews? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gary, Here's an interview with Marcus Grievy that fascinated me. -Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 13:43:24 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MWP Subject: Re: Interviews? In-Reply-To: <200210081818.g98IIS4t029405@dept.english.upenn.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I interviewed the ghost of John Cage today for 4 minutes and 33 seconds and here is what he had to say: -m ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 16:50:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: Re: Interviews? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Glad to hear that John is still so voluble. At 01:43 PM 10/8/2002 -0700, you wrote: >I interviewed the ghost of John Cage today for 4 minutes and 33 seconds and >here is what he had to say: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >-m <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "The university professes the truth, and that is its profession. It declares and promises an unlimited commitment to the truth." Jacques Derrida (Without Alibi 202) Aldon Lynn Nielsen George and Barbara Kelly Professor of American Literature Department of English The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 16:50:31 -0400 Reply-To: Allen Bramhall Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Allen Bramhall Subject: Re: the big lie MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit it isn't my theory of china, richard. its the word of many. i don't like the chinese goverment, it proports to be a system of the people, but its just capitalism in drag. (complete with feather boa and those wonderful eyelashes). as far as the 'great policies of ho chi minh and his theory of great revolutionary movement', i am familiar with his theories, but prefer evolution rather than revolution. read history ? my dad was a social scientist and historian. the politics of conflict and social systems. revolution. your suggestion that i should work in 'real factories' and suffer 'real hardship' is lost on me, richard. how do you know i haven't ? your attack on the dalai lama i find sad. when someone advocates compassion this must be a reason to attack them and their belief system ? i find this most curious. what would the chinese government have against the idea of tolerance and compassion as a system of belief ? beth garrison ----- Original Message ----- From: "richard.tylr" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 7:18 AM Subject: Re: the big lie > There's a lot of anti-communst and quite simply racist anti Chinese > propaganda so I cant believe anything of your theory of China, sorry. The > CIA has always funded anti communist and especially anti -Rissian and anti > China reports and books and even whole courses at Harvard and > elsewhere...check out if possible your friend: he's possibly funded by the > CIA. I debate the nonsense about Tibet which is a very reactionary country > that had the Dali Lama in charge who is nut case and a probably a crook. > > But the comparison with China: China in international affairs has always > supported liberal and democratic and great revolutionary movements such as > that by Ho Chi Minh. They stay out of interference in oustide politics. It > is a greatly progessive and progressed country unlike the US which is > rotting with the mire of arrogance and the sins of indulgence and lust and > the bombing and infiltration interference of other countries and > destabilisation and so on and will sink ultimately into the Hell of its own > self-devastation: the Chinese on the other hand are by and large a > happy, stable country, wih happy people living there.No snipers or Church > burners or shool massacres over there! My mate went there: marvellous > openness and liveliness (India by contrast with its corrupt "democracy" > (full of "moc")): now I find the Indians of India by contrast a possibly > dubious and glum lot who never smile and are always winging about prices) > and people talking openly on every subject. He felt safer in China than in > NZ or Australia (where he's from) where they murder Aboriginees: or have > done...Baraka by the way points to the US genocide of the American Indians > ( the 4000 keeps away part is only a bit of rhetoric I suspect) ...But > China: No Trade Towers bursting in he violet air over there! Study the > philosophy of Mao Tse Tung and read more about politics. Dont just listen to > me: work in factories and experience > real hardships as I have: academics and psychoanalysts and academics and > Jewish haberdashers like Monsieur Harienne Nudelski Etal are cosseted in NY > and (the psychoanalyists ) make money out of the misery of capitalism so > they (subconciously perhaps) dont want it to change: hence there rather > non-commital political stance and Nudelski's extreme right wing views. Most > Tibetans are glad to be with China: they are loyal. Richard Taylor. > > Richard. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Allen Bramhall" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 3:13 PM > Subject: Re: the big lie > > > > believing that tibet has always been a part of china is basicly ignoring > > the > > fact that it was independant, though it did have close ties with china > > developed during the 5th and 6th centuries in particular. > > a million tibetans dead or missing, thousands jailed without so much as a > > hearing for years--torture as the rule rather than the exception. these > are > > facts. documented facts. > > as for mongolia, sorry, your'e sadly mistaken. i have a friend, living in > > canada, was a physicist. he spent two years in a chinese prison before > even > > having a hearing. his crime ? he brought a newspaper into the country. > one > > newspaper. yep, thats all. two years, finally freed to be exiled from his > > family and country for life. he considers himself lucky to have gotten > out, > > with the help of amnesty international. this is a documented case. > > thats the enlightened goverment you speak so highly of, richard. > > china has no more integrity than any other country and a history of > starting > > guerilla wars in the countries it borders, destablizing those countries, > > then coming in when the goverments collapse. if you want to see this in > > progress, check out whats happening in nepal. > > as for the statement that 'china is relatively uncorrupt' everyone i know > > from china says the goverment is corrupt. > > i would also stress that i am not comparing the united states to any > > country, waving the flag of colonializm in drag, so to speak. > > your statement : > > quote : > the present western backed ractionaries in Tibet musd be kept > > "down" aslso > > any in Mongolia: > > is very familar to me. substitute 'women' or ' niggers' in place of > > tibetans > > or mongolians and we've heard it before in this country during the 60's > and > > seventies. you can still hear it south of the mason dixon line. > > intolerance, bigotry, viewing people as objects rather living beings, > > ignorance, thats what blew up america, richard. > > i'll refrain from the name calling you've indulged in, honest dscourse > and > > diverse viewpoints being my goal. > > be well, > > beth garrison > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "richard.tylr" > > > To: "Allen Bramhall" > > > Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 8:54 PM > > > Subject: Re: the big lie > > > > > > > > > > I see he need for China to keep its integrity and they dont need the > > > > reactionaries in Tibet to subvert their state which has always had > > Tibet: > > > > the present western backed ractionaries in Tibet musd be kept "down" > > aslso > > > > any in Mongolia: it doeesnt amatter how many may or may have not be en > > > > killed: he alternative is the kind of rwars and embargoes that US get > > into > > > > and the major imperiaists which cause daily the deaths of thousands: > the > > > > point is that China is a powerful State, relatively uncrorupt, and > > > > independent (they even have their own computer which is in Chinese, > > > designed > > > > in China, they have Stealth bombers, huge undergound resistance and > > > ICBMS - > > > > watch out Uncle Sam!!) China, like much of the world doesnt need the > US: > > > > this is he point, the US is now anout to go ahead with another war - > > they > > > > must have prosecuted about 100 to China's one (in fact I cant recall > > China > > > > since 1949 being involved in any outside wars so i think you are > talking > > > > rubbish...I do recall they sent taechniciansrto help tanzania no > strings > > > > attached which the US bever does (they always charge) (minor and > > > basically > > > > benign) occupation of Mongolia. Would the US pull out of Turkey, > Saudi > > > > Arabia, Afgahanistan, Palestine (via Israel), Pakistan and even > > Australia? > > > > They have quite got NZ in the bag we are resisting their arrogant call > > to > > > > allow nuclear powered ships so far thank Christ. > > > > > > > > The Chinese are no fools. They long ago got ready for an US invasion > in > > > fact > > > > they fought the US off in the 50s (the Korean war was a front for an > > > > invasion of China to destroy that workers democratic state)...No your > > weak > > > > bourgeious protestations move me not. Richard taylor. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Allen Bramhall" > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 2:42 AM > > > > Subject: Fw: the big lie > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: re: the big lie > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 'Thank God China has kept the US out. The US will never mess with > > > China. > > > > > If > > > > > > they did they would actually have to have a real war...not this > > > gutless > > > > > > bombing of weak countries and the killing of women and children > and > > > > anyone > > > > > > else as they always do. You are obviously very poorly read in > > > political > > > > > > matters. Richard Taylor.' > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > my god, richard ! > > > > > holding up china as a role model....good lord, do you have _any_ > idea > > at > > > > all > > > > > what they > > > > > have done to mongolia and tibet ? the millions dead and misplaced ? > > the > > > > > thousands slaving in dentention camps ? state sponsored torture ? > > > > > > > > > > it was a poem about intolerance. it was a poem about how we all > seem > > to > > > > > have > > > > > our own brand of intolerance. all of us. none of us escapes the > brush > > > with > > > > > extinction. none. > > > > > > > > > > beth garrison > > > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 16:30:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: Virginia Deceived with Kindness Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed evening, & the word "local' daydreams of being a palindrome the pages of achievement are applied to your painted eyelids blindfolds pointed in the direction of arm-slings heavenly mansions burned by rioters, though the land is still marketable - to a single end, Aspasia authorized Virginia to requisition supplies discussion is freed from analysis by royal favor alone Sotades issued a declaration of justification whilst en route to V. privileges and exemptions are what make this world go 'round, else Virginia should be in league with the stones in the field your children stepped inside and consumed him, this wildly-gored S. concealing a few miles, flint & steel straightened up a new signature Can I trust you? servants had drifted out of my projections near the Alps I was as I am now: aptly put the Black Cat was grasped clubwise so I might defend my good name born amongst her imperfect gravity, hopeless and generous shock fainting upon the sofa in habitual detestation these sins are in favor of quality ---------> three or four doctors read about your martinetish sightseeing Virginia unloosed her ouphe and barghest hoop next weekend, I'll become recently interested in this little beast like ashes set to bribing the coals, you can guess why! _____________________________________________________ VIRGINIA, OR THE POT OF BASIL turn to puns, norms of well-behaved frames confounded falseness begins with LADY GODIVA [Gradiva?] red & nicety by the needle competence too complex to engage the local my lungs eat away at the Psalmist, my common sense tells me "readers are not witnesses" - antecedent twists & turns claim and reclaim Virginia's charms the mark of more than sufficient law is docility letters wronged you, didn't they? I can tell. there's some discrepancy between freedom & biological functions imperialism was touched off by a syrup of violets, illicit gravediving thought to be indicative of bolshevism my darling resemblance is a few steps away even a dip in the mirage - O iron collar! - is shaken by occasion the huge interiors shook within the custom sunken functionaries live for her debt fattened this calf the bishop's head hangs from my pommel some trifle sinks heroes into banditry you card, you threw them all into postponing LAVBESP is it contumely or reverence that leaves a souvenir where it lies? a scrap is foreign to its origins - this is very crucial Virginia bore the Old World into her left shoulder cold sweat, what do I owe you? a name less sick for being forgotten, Virginia, was cut short by waking up early your three little brothers pace a carpet 800 feet long unfortunate & manacled, though always welcome _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 16:08:05 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: Perelman's interview, Crap, etc. In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" andrew, i came to the university from outside of the university (after spending time within the university, before which it was k-12, yes?)... i don't think of the campus as a haven---sure, the naive impression i had of it while working very un-naively in fortune 500---but i see it as a workplace... now understood as a workplace, and (again) as maria indicates, a bureaucratically overdetermined such item, one can't quite attribute leftism carte blanche either to the workplace itself or to its various practices... and you mix and match, andrew---if i read you aright---when you criticize academe for its inability to generate artistic otherness (a desirable quality, i'd say, and goddamned difficult to produce under any circumstances) on the basis of its political sensibility (as it were, if only b/c the two aren't necessarily intertwined, even in english depts., let alone poets)... ok: no doubt intellectuals have by and large been driven into the university, demographically speaking, over the past 40 years or so (which again, isn't to suggest that all who are employed by the u are intellectuals---and i'm not defining my terms here, i agree)... but even assuming there is anything remotely approaching an intellectual left in academic poets (i.e., poets who earn their keep, like me, via academe); and even assuming this intellectual left IS the avant-garde, by and large (i say if); and even assuming academe hasn't been real congenial to creative work (to judge by the poetic output of this intellectual left of a-g poets, say): this yet would not permit one to conclude that academe is (academics are) to be blamed for (let's say) asethetically cautious work... not least b/c academe doesn't exist in a vacuum---overdetermined or no, its borders transmit broader cultural currents, and help shape those currents... just give a listen to 'the factor' to see how many academics appear on o'reilly, willing to swap rhetorical blows (a pop cultural effect, at the very least)... in light of which, i disagree rather strenuously with your characterization of teachers and scholars as transmitters and analysts, but not makers... there's a (postromantic) being/doing split here, for one, with which i'm not comfortable, but even in your own terms, i "make" as much culture now, certainly, as i did when i helped miller brewing company manufacture better beer faster, and more inexpensively, and more safely... wouldn't you agree?... any institution, understood as a workplace, will bring its own set of constraints to the artistic process... if one manages a mcdonald's, god forbid (sorry!), one's workplace will no doubt be at perceived, broadly, as at some remove from poetry... but the bureaucratization of mcdonald's is at least as intense as at postsecondary institutions, meaning one's poetry will (again) pick up/reveal/transmit/MAKE said effects... and at the same time, you'll likely have a MUCH harder time finding out where to go to talk with, and how to talk with, a guy named "andrew rathmann"... even the discursive machinery you and i et al. are tossing back and forth (though admittedly, i just intro'd a new term for which i'll no doubt be hung out to dry), is conditioned by academe... you can run but you cannot hide... the tune in/turn on/drop out variant of bohemian (?---not to give the latter a bad name!) "inspiration" you would seem to be espousing (via high modernism, ironically) just strikes me as compeletely devoid, again, of consideration for the very real necessities that come of earning a living... so if you don't want to hazard talking about alternatives (for fear of re-creating a systemic entity, i guess, which i fear too)---and if you don't want to hazard invoking an existing alternative to the academically-bound versions that, in your view, overpopulate the poetry industry---why i think you're dreaming, man... and i suppose, to be candid, one *could* posit some interesting poetry from that perspective, too, with enough H20 on hand and a little, uh, bread... & i suppose that might in fact depend upon the times, the paradoxes, we're willing to entertain--- best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 18:33:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: two hours ago. fifty feet from here. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII two hours ago. fifty feet from here. her was throat cut was and cut she and was she taken taken hospital. to her hospital. throat died the right sidewalk. there her on throat the was sidewalk. cut thrown a from man a jumped car out man she jumped was out thrown after from her. a killed was in killed mexican the restaurant. mexican wounded the restaurant her by boyfriend. boyfriend. was police the got police boyfriend her custody. in someone someone chased chased guy guy he he away. away. who chased is in knife is lying right everything's already cleaned up. it happened an hour it ago. happened twenty minutes it that woman's mother-in-law. no happened one but knows there's what a but of there's blood lot no of one blood knows around. what not not enough enough for for throat. throat. stabbed. i'd never i'd let never my let do boyfriend that. do are or two three or murders three a murders day day nine-eleven. since there nine-eleven. are nothing nothing like like has has here here years. years. === ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 21:18:28 -0400 Reply-To: bstefans@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Brian Stefans [arras.net]" Subject: Consciousness acquiesces, and the body follows suit. Comments: To: bks cuny MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Clinton Says He Backs Tough U.N. Resolution on Iraq Inspections by ISIDORE ISOU http://www.arras.net/clinton_backs_resolution.html ____ A R R A S: new media poetry and poetics http://www.arras.net Hinka cumfae cashore canfeh, Ahl hityi oar hied 'caw taughtie! "Do you think just because I come from Carronshore I cannot fight? I shall hit you over the head with a cold potatoe." ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 21:29:26 -0400 Reply-To: men2@columbia.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Millie Niss Subject: Re: [webartery] poetry and madness Comments: To: "SCHIZOPH: Schizophrenia Discussion Group" , Martha L Deed , webartery@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <005501c26edb$d40e5f00$6dfdfc83@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I (and I have previously made this point) think that the poetic process is psychotic (but not that poets are psychotic), in the formal, psychiatric sense of the word. In psychosis one has: delusions: ideas which aren't true and often, make no literal sense but sometimes have evocative or metaphoric sense, often a belief that things carry more meaning than they really do (e.g. "that red light meant my life is at a standstill"), that one is a someone one isn't (God, Jesuss, Napoleon, An Alien from Outer Space, a Great Writer or Artist, the President...), that mysterious forces govern the worls ("themy boss's special powers make me cut my finger tonight as I prepare dinner-- he controls everything I do")), hallucinations: hearing voices, inanimate objects talk, one can talk with God or the Devil or Elvis or one's dead relatives and thought disorder: tangential thinking (digressing a lot) magical thinking (belief that something affects something it doesn't), superstition, suspicion, clang associations (rhyme, alliteration), thought blockage (no way to continue a thought, have to stop taling or change topics), thought insertion an unrelated thought is inserted into a stream of thought), looseness of associations (one thought leads to another which is only vaguely related ainstead of logically the next thought in a "normal" conversation), perseveration (going on and one about something, repeating the same thought in different words, unable to change the subject). You will recoignize many of these as the ways ideas and words are organized in poems. Some poetry is overtly psychotic-seeming (and not written by a psychotic author) such as much of James Tate's poems (not the last book but the previous three) in whihc he has narrators with full-blown paranoid fantasies only in a poem it isn't necessarily a fantasy -- there really could be someone after you that talks to you through your bowl of soup or whatever. The "reality" of poems is quite different from the reality of the natural world and also (this is less understood) from the reality of fiction. In ficton, even postmodern bizarre fiction, there is a certain consistency required in the way the world works. It can be totally strange, and everything can suddenly transform itself like magic (as in Calvino's _If on a winter's night a traveler_) but locally within sections of a fictional work you have a suspension of disbelief and for that you need a minimum level of logic to the fictional world. In poetry, on the other hand, the reality is only sketched and there are big gaps about which you know nothing (unlike fiction, a poem, at least a modern poem, usually does not create a whole world) and you aren't supposed to be able to fill in the gaps to make a sensible world out of what you do know. In a poem, anything can be true. Even the simplest poems have a reality which is bizarre compared to fiction or real life. In Wiliiams's famous red wheelbarrow poem, everything DOES depend on the red wheelbarrow. It is not a figure of speech or a symbol IN THE WORLD OF THE POEM. It it simply true. You have to take it at face value. However the poem's reality may itself be symbolic or evocative or allusive or satirical or whatever. You can read the poem in the usual way in whuch you see figures of speech and techniques and poetic tricks and so on. But it is also essential to read into and accept the reality created by the poem as you read it. That is the one of the ways to understand what the poem is doing. Under this form of interpretation, it is not the poet or the poem which is psychotic, but the very structure of the universe. And being able to conceive of such a universe is a creative task akin to the actual writing of the poem; you actually recreate the process of creating the poem as you create the poem's universe in your head. But you must abandon (temporarily) the rukles of sanity to do so. Millie -----Original Message----- From: Joel Weishaus [mailto:weishaus@pdx.edu] Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 11:03 AM To: webartery@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [webartery] poetry and madness > in the interest of moving this monthly topic a little ways past the usual > level I just came across a couple of bits that might be of interest. > > there is a new book out on _A Language for Psychosis (Brunner Routledge > books are generally quite interesting). > > according to Duncan the activity of the poet is _psychotic. as in > 'pf a psychosis," meaning, literally, "the soul in process," from the Greek > _psyche, for soul, and the suffix, -osis, for process (taken from o'Leary's > _Gnostic Contagion. > Tom: We can play with terms such as psychotic, but what it means is what it currently means, which is not Greek but Geek. So that attaching scholarly intent is misleading. The public knows what psychosis is, or think they do. They see it on the news almost every night. I see it there, too, but in those who act as if they are "sane." -Joel Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 21:37:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: Murat Nemet-Nejat just phoned me MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Murat lives in Hoboken, two blocks west of where i lived from 1993-95. Murat has a rich, friendly voice with a crunchy Turkish accent. I told him I used to frequent Maxwell's. Today Murat does business with Bendas Oriental Rug Co, a mile north of where I presently live in St. Louis. Murat told me about the Dodie Bellamy / Kevin Killian reading, which he attended with Gary "Joke Boy" Sullivan last night, and really enjoyed. I told him we have a couple of readings a month here in STL, perhaps one good one; he said that sounded like a good average. I said we take the rifle approach here, as opposed to the shotgun. We get our quarry. Frankly, the whole time we were talking, I was picturing moving back to the NYC area. I think I'd settle in Brooklyn. It seems so many poets and artists live there. But really, who needs to live near poets and artists when I have a telephone? I live near the lady at the end of my street, and I've never even spoken to her. It's the speaking-to that matters. I'll stay in St. Louis for now. Murat, it'll be great to meet you when I'm up there this November. -Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 22:43:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Rothenberg Subject: Re: Murat Nemet-Nejat just phoned me MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I spoke with Murat too. Nice guy. Michael R. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Belz" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 10:37 PM Subject: Murat Nemet-Nejat just phoned me > Murat lives in Hoboken, two blocks west of where i lived from 1993-95. > Murat has a rich, friendly voice with a crunchy Turkish accent. I told him > I used to frequent Maxwell's. Today Murat does business with Bendas > Oriental Rug Co, a mile north of where I presently live in St. Louis. Murat > told me about the Dodie Bellamy / Kevin Killian reading, which he attended > with Gary "Joke Boy" Sullivan last night, and really enjoyed. I told him we > have a couple of readings a month here in STL, perhaps one good one; he > said that sounded like a good average. I said we take the rifle approach > here, as opposed to the shotgun. We get our quarry. > > Frankly, the whole time we were talking, I was picturing moving back to the > NYC area. I think I'd settle in Brooklyn. It seems so many poets and > artists live there. But really, who needs to live near poets and artists > when I have a telephone? I live near the lady at the end of my street, and > I've never even spoken to her. It's the speaking-to that matters. I'll > stay in St. Louis for now. > > Murat, it'll be great to meet you when I'm up there this November. > > -Aaron > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 01:12:22 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Murat Nemet-Nejat just phoned me MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron, I'm looking forward to meeting you too. Murat ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 06:44:18 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lakey Teasdale Subject: Framed, and he courted beauty, Virginia Comments: To: "WRYTING-L : Writing and Theory across Disciplines" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Framed, and he courted beauty, Virginia in the frame of silver, the Dutch hymn of evening & the dream of stone. Her ashes the exception, the cities but a trace: thanksgiving for beauty & the beast of beauty: the hymn sung of forgetting. The not forgetting. The knot the Law. the lore, The antecedent to the bargain, the unfounded, confounded, the found & the deal, the contract and. Yes. The covenant: the complex, in the instance, quite simple. who bears witness? who wills the witness &/or Witness: The will. Deep harvests leagues deep. the harvests the deep, deep blue. sky reflection, the mirage a better authority recalls and records: Bless the appearance: unusual. & varies the species. these solitudes these that pro- tect and name: each other. and other(s). the taking and leaving leave taking and leaving weaving & tacking wind and welcome again. The guests feast on reason. On gravity, occasion & your soul. Your good soul. Yours. the distant. The resemblance: There. the interpretation of discrepancy to be interpreted Again & again. Again & again. There: before late. the fortu- nate interpretation engaged: a Fortune in riddles in reason. the Sudden. The hidden, repetition, the difficult. And the red colt. The horizon behind him. The mare closer. Still. Varies, difficult. This is by way of consolation. The comfort in the interpretation. Received and now cherished amongst leaves. This is by way of consolation. The comfort in the interpretation. Received and now cherished amongst leaves. And one, not one, but rather one more, or even: one wholly yours, your interpretation over the others over you. You Welcome: the coming. the arrival & flourish the coming the dip into: the arrival dipped into The wrong righted. righted The wrong. The resemblance striking. striking The bell: the stricken? No. Considerate the consid- eration. navigation The choice the course clear justification. Jus- tice and provoca- tion. Occasion: the season. The time when ripe for negotiation or recognition of privilege? or of exemption. Consolation in and of the interpretation. the repetition a reminder to: Chant. To chant. never & no thing but all: The chant: You & your Your & you You & your Your & you Steps away, step away The steps. The steppes. The plains And the Old World, or merely this old world is born. This and the word of an Old World is born. The word was/was not the world. The word was/was not the world. The world was and the word: Genuine and imperfect and or perfectly genuine. the beautiful flaw. the beautiful flaw. the flawed without, within: Your orchids read in needles. Your red translated to thread and read: inscribed and sung. And drifted in projection and driven in direction the frame opened wide the sense and either side: protect and limit protect & no limit: on surface the limn it projects. Just. greet(s) another. The other. An other. And greet(s) another still. In stills and in sequence: And riddle the riddle and riddle them none: Only one & one. All in all: One. in the frame of silver, the Dutch hymn of evening & the dream of stone. Her ashes the exception, the cities but a trace: thanksgiving the beauty & the beast of beauty: the hymn sung of forgetting. The not forgetting. The knot the Law. the law, The antecedent to the bargain, the unfounded confounded, the found & the deal, the contract and. Yes. The covenant: the complex, in the instance, quite simple. who bears witness? who wills the witness &/or Witness: The will. Deep harvests leagues deep. the harvests the deep. Deep blue. sky reflection in the mirage a better reflection, and recall & record: Bless the appearance: unusual. & varies the species. these solitudes these that pro- tect and name: each other. And other. the taking and leaving leave taking and leaving and welcome again. The guests feast on reason. On your soul. Your good soul. Yours. the distant. The resemblance: There. the interpretation of discrepancy to be interpreted Again. Again. Again. Again. There: fortunate. The fortunate in- terpretation. a Fortune in riddles in riddles. riddles of: the Sudden. The hidden, repetition, the difficult. And the red colt. The horizon behind him. The mare closer. Still. Difficult. This is by way of consolation. The comfort in the interpretation. Received and now cherished amongst leaves. This is by way of consolation. The comfort in the interpretation. Received and now cherished amongst leaves. And one, not one, but rather one more, or even: one wholly your interpretation over the others. The others interpretation over you. you Welcome: the coming. the arrival flourishes the coming the dip into the arrival dipped into The wrong righted. righted The wrong. The resemblance striking. striking The bell the stricken? No. Considerate the consid- eration. The navigation the choice the course clear consideration: the season. The time when ripe for consideration or justification of privileges? Of exemption. And consolation in and of the interpretation. the repetition a reminder to: Chant. To chant. never & no thing but all: The chant. You & yours. Your & you. Steps away, step away The steps. The steppes. And the Old World, or merely this old world is born. This and the word of an Old World is born. The word was. Not the world. The word was. Not the world. The world was and the word: Genuine &/or imperfect &/or perfectly genuine. Your orchids read in needles. Your red translated to thread and read. The inscribed sung. And drifted in projection and driven in direction the frame and opened wide the sense and either side: protect and limit and at the limit project. And greets another. The other. An other. And greets another. And riddle the riddle and riddle them none: Only one & one. All in all: One. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 07:26:17 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lakey Teasdale Subject: Framed, and he courted beauty, Virginia Comments: To: "WRYTING-L : Writing and Theory across Disciplines" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry. The last thing I posted for some reason, inexplicable to myself, which probably involved hitting a key on this machine inadvertently, repeats. the last word is "one." the thing is not meant to just keep going all over again. apologies, but my inner preaf-rooder missed that. Fie. Fie and mystification. Where is my scribe? oh woe. Lakey ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 16:52:49 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Tranter Subject: "John Tranter readings in NY and LA, October 2002" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Please spread the word... John Tranter, wearing his Jacket, will read in New York with Tom Savage: Monday 21 October, evening The Poetry Project, St Mark's Church in the Bowery 2nd Ave and 10th Street, New York NY 10002 Tel (212) 674 0910 ...and, wearing a different Jacket, in Los Angeles with Susan Wheeler: Sunday 27 October 4 p.m. Dawson's Bookshop 535 N. Larchmont Blvd. Los Angeles, CA 90004 Tel (323) 469 2186 Background reading: John Tranter's new book: "Heart Print", from Salt Publishing, ISBN 1-876857-32-3 Marjorie Perloff's review: http://jacketmagazine.com/18/perloff.html You can buy this book on-line at http://www.amazon.com/ > Editor, Jacket magazine: http://jacketmagazine.com/ > homepage - poetry, reviews, etc, at: http://www.austlit.com/jt/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 21:30:59 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: the big lie: leading to my interest in The New Black Panthers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Murat. I thought you were going to say they were a load of rubbish! I'll ignore the Trade tower thing - you of course know it is ref. to T S Eiot's poem and of course I dont really want to see anny more towers being knocked down: its a bitof hype, but you have to admit - the human tragedy aside - the whole "show" of S11 was bizzarrely beautiful: also terrible..one thinks f the term "a terrible beauty is born"...whoever did it: let's say it WAS some Al Qeada terrorists: my point though is in "following" Baraka is that he had a right to ask "Who?" (as there are a lot of questions to be answered,...if that's possible) and also I dont see that he is anti-semitic: if I met him and found him so I would not want to know him.. My "beef" with Israel I put very strongly but in reality? Well I think we need to all look into the situation in Palestine. BUT I would not back a racist Arab league either: I dont support Hussein and so on. but I do support the Iraqi people... The philosophy of Mao Tse Tung I think should be studied just as much as say Wittgenstein or Heidegger or any other thinker: I have much admiration for Mao. However I am well aware that China is not a Utopia: however I dont think that I have time to explain the things about Mao Tse tung thought and the cultural revolution that I think made China in a sense the first truly revolutionary country: now I think that society moves between revolutions and uprisings and wars and slowly evolves which someone mentioned as being a supporter of wwell of corse I am too..... I think though that an argument about the Cultural Revolution would get us all bogged down; it all depending on which books one a has read and one's "class outlook" and also personal views and whatever: In fact I would not make a very good Marxist myself. This is a contradiction I know: I simply am not a conformist: i'm very much an individualist hence I have never joined eg the Communist Party although years ago I thought of that. Factories as you know was 'metonymic' in fact what it might do for some poeple would be to "bring them down to earth" ...but yes, ultimately such menial labour we could get rid of: key word: "ultimately".... I was saying in effect: the US (State-Industrial Complex etc) looks very powerful but in fact its good that China is - not socialist per se - but in fact militarily being quite the equal of the US: in fact I think that India is also becoming a force to be reckoned with. This, paradoxically it might seem, I see good: it is to do with off setting the power of US and Israeli and British Imperialism: in fact the countries are almost irrelevant as allegiances shift but at the moment we see the US as an aggressive Imperialist State which is always a bad sign for it (the Imperialist country) as it usually signals its coming decline, even demise ...into the mire of its own Hell (I'm reading Dorothy Sayer's translation of The Divine Comedy!)....now China I think is largely a force for good: despite some hiccups...the sins of Mongolia are very small (there are a lot of bandits in those outlying regions: and out of 200 milion there are nound to be some bad eggs some of whom join universities subsidized by other bad eggs!!..) and also there is the Departments of Misinformation etc, and I do see Tibet (under The Salvador Lama as reactionary)...but my point is that it represents a powerful "block" to US Imperialism. Of course there's no guarantee that China wont fold to Macdonald burgers and Holywood and all the excessive materialist crap of the West or even become an agressor State itself but they havent shown such tendencies yet. ok they might "embrace materialism" - but who doesnt..who doesnt starves to death...I'm talking about the feverish emptiness, the snipers, the psychoses, at the core of Western societies...and so on.... I see also slowly developing a powerful block from Palestine through to China even in league with some of the states such as Turjikistan and even India: potentially without the US and if they could form an alliance of some kind they could all become very prosperous and aso a large State...in fact the US Imperialitss are frightened of such potential leagues. (they will or could elwel become redundant and "wither away"..) Hence the US Imperialists continue to destabilise and bully other countires in the interests of power over resources and potential cheap labour sources and also the ability to manipulate people into the way they want tmem to be (which is generally, under a dictatorship of some kind and very poor). Here is where Baraka, loose cannon he may be, comes in.....everyone is ignoring his powerful critique of the many wrongs and are simply seeing him as anti-semitic: when its called "strong rhetoric" and it is also called criticism of the status quo. That said - I dont like his style of poetry ...or I havent up to now...or maybe I'm starting to like it more....at least there's some meaning in what he is saying: his rhetoric and apparent "refentiality" I know CAN also be dangerous we can get mesmerised by this kind of stuff: I too read the technical journals...) some passion however false we may feel that passion might be. I'm also interested in the new Black Panthers....!! Richard Taylor. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Murat Nemet-Nejat" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 5:55 AM Subject: Re: the big lie > Richard, two things about your posts. First, I can not stop myself from > reading them, a kind of linguistic addiction you might say. Second, I can not > sometimes stop from responding to them. Here it is: > > > ...But > > > >China: No Trade Towers bursting in he violet air over there! > > I thought you said the exploding towers were a thing of beauty; you mean > China lacks this kind of beauty? > > > >Study the > > > >philosophy of Mao Tse Tung and read more about politics. > > Let a thousand flowers "burst" in the country side? I suppose the Cultural > Revolution was the Maoist concept of beauty? > > > >Dont just listen > >to > > > >me: work in factories and experience > > > >real hardships as I have: > > If factories are the only places where one experiences real hardships, > wouldn't the answer be to have no factories at all? For example, in the > United States we should all go to Kansas and plant wheat or corn, or to > tobacco or cotton fields in the South. Come to think of it, the new American > revolution should involve going back to slavery. > > > > >academics and psychoanalysts and academics and > > > >Jewish haberdashers like Monsieur Harienne Nudelski Etal are cosseted in > >NY > > > >and (the psychoanalyists ) make money out of the misery of capitalism > > > Is your inspiration above Stalin's dissertation on Jewish doctors? > > Let me e-mail this before I change my mind. > > Best. > > Murat ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 06:58:02 -0400 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG lie...(6) shut 'em up...nudelski the haberdasher 500,000 of 'em couldn't carry Baraka's jockstrap..shut 'em up...move 'em out...raw hide.... slowly but inevitably we're going thru all the stages of the BIG LIE...denial...anger...rage...name calling..fault the victim...change the subject...and soon 'nuf Baraka as victim.. Gerald Stern...in yesterday's NYTIMES..."The State is the Enemy of the Poet"....the scenery is being set up for the final act... Baraka is the spoilt chile of the State. His parents worked for it...he worked for it...he's pensioned by it...me...i'd be mad too...on the 7th day...the 7th cross...oi's meir....DrNudelski... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 06:58:15 -0400 Reply-To: Allen Bramhall Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Allen Bramhall Subject: clothes in tatters, etc MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit the splurge of pink atmospheric, to say you sleep in today. and the world arms heavily painted instants with reading papers till tomorrow. at maximum the cudgel expresses sweaty Tibetan loss. this is privacy, which we always wreak in public. so there is a saying, planted firmly by the most bilious. it loses unction and turns to strong effort on the map of where we become a sad state of affairs. this is the merry town now, after all this work. a dream is a wish report, until it is time to speak again. everyone screws up explaining, there's too much map to behold. so Tibet is a monstrance, as big as your moronic friend who stays with you often, speaking always or you have had enough. welcome a description of some country you almost believe in, where you won't be quite so nervous. colours have grown heavy, and it isn't even funny to watch leaves fall so tragically. you sleep in today and three leaves tumble from a tree. the tree is a mere maple, a ground rule easily ignored. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 12:51:32 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lawrence Upton Subject: Re: Lissa Wolsak Follow up MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit No not yet L ----- Original Message ----- From: "B.E. Basan" To: Sent: 08 October 2002 15:46 Subject: Lissa Wolsak Follow up | I was just going through the archives today and was wondering, Lawrence, if | you had written that review of _Pen Chants_? | | In fact, I was wondering if ANYONE had written a review? I'd be interested | in finding out what others, aside from Andrew Rathmann (though I *did* find | his close reading an interesting starting point, not really knowing Susan | Howe etc), have said about the book. | | Thanks, | Ben | ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 08:40:38 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Just spent the day with Bob Rosenthal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In the spirit of day spending, I just spent one with Bob Rosenthal. Bob is trustee of Allen Ginsberg's estate and was his secretary from the 1970s until the end. He's also a cool poet in his own write. We talked; we laughed; we had lunch; we travelled by train together, reliving our pasts. I learned more about Allen, Bill, Gregory, Jack, Philip Lamantia, McClure, Ferlinghetti, et al than I can ever hope to remember. Great day! Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com KojaPress.com Amazon.com BarnesandNoble.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 09:25:53 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mdw Subject: Perelman's interview, crap, etc. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree with Joe Amato that Andrew Rothman's notion that the most daring poetry must come from the outside is relentlessly romantic and more than a little out of date. That said, I think that Joe and Maria's defense of how poetry CAN take place along the seams, let's say, of academic life--an argument I myself have often made--feels less and less adequate to my sense of contemporary poetic circumstances. The problem, as I see it, is not that daring poetry MUST come from outside the academic context. The problem is that it's increasingly--not absolutely, increasingly--impossible for ANY poetry to come from outside the academic context. I'm not saying that there aren't many great poets who are not academics, by any means--we have a bunch here in DC, people like Heather Fuller, Rod Smith, Buck Downs. But the problem is that such poets can be to a greater and greater degree simply ignored, beyond the local environment. Again, not absolutely. But more and more so. It was possible, perhaps even through the 70s? the 80s? for poets to establish significant profiles as poets by publishing, their whole lives, entirely in the small presses and small magazines. But at best, now, such poets receive marginal attention, if any at all. So, sure, poetry can be written outside the academic world, and sure, it can be written inside the academic world. I find both those points true, if a little obvious, since poetry has an amazing ability to be written under ANY circumstances. But the increasing hegemony of academic production means that, these days, increasingly, academic success=poetic value, in the short run anyway (who knows what of this poetry will survive? does it matter to us?). Non-academic poets are second rate citizens at best, if they're allowed any cache as citizens at all. My challenge then is this: more attention needs to be paid to poets who are not part of the academic machine, or who are more marginally part of it, not because they're better, but just because, you know, they MIGHT be. I'd love to see a list of poets you like, right now, who are not primarily top shelf academics. Let's discuss their work at least for once. Maintain the possibility of, sometimes, stepping outside-- Mark Wallace ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 09:16:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: Re: Perelman's interview, crap, etc. In-Reply-To: <3DA65498@webmail3> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT MDW writes: I Reply: I fundamentally disagree with you. I'd rather talk about poetry that moves me, than to research a poet's biography to see what s/he does for a living. And what is "top shelf" anyway? I don't know. Really. Could we talk about a poet who works at a university (or maybe even a college?) if we decided s/he wasn't "top shelf"? Or "primarily"? Too much work for me. It's hard enough just finding great poetry amid all the piles of paper . . . And, of course, we're having this discussion on the back of a "top shelf" academic institution . . . the commonest of ironies . . . sending anti- academic emails through the Buffalo.edu distribution system! Talk about "academic machines." Literally. Best, JG (The views expressed here are not necesarilly those of the academic institution John Gallaher is marginally affiliated with. --The mgmt.) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 11:35:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Shelf-Publishing. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain The shelving at most universities I've worked at is in pretty sad shape -- [except in Dean's Offices, where they seem to spend a great deal of money on shelves to hold their family pictures and objects picked up on their foreign travels] -- What starts out top shelf may easily wind up floored before long -- But isn't it the "job" of an academic critic of contemporary poetry to go beyond the more prominent AWP/MFA journals and check out what's getting written wherever and by whoever? Buck Downs and Rod Smith and Heather Fuller are certainly on my list of important poets these days -- I think giovanni singleton is not a professor (haven't seen her for a while so don't know fer sure) -- I wouldn't begrudge any poet a chance to make a living at a university -- It's not the kind of living you could make elsewhere, but elsewhere probably won't pay you to read books and write -- And the few other places that DO pay people to read books & write (the mainstream newspaper book reviews and mags) seem even more unlikely to hire the likes of US -- no? Do you HAVE to work at USC to review poetry in the LA TIMES? <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "So all rogues lean to rhyme." --James Joyce Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 11:43:40 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: RaeA100900@AOL.COM Subject: Fwd: Electronic Poetry Review #4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_d3.13311d5a.2ad5a8ac_boundary" --part1_d3.13311d5a.2ad5a8ac_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm forwarding this submission request from the electronic poetry review at the editor's request. --part1_d3.13311d5a.2ad5a8ac_boundary Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-4A1814FF; boundary="=======1FC84ACC=======" --=======1FC84ACC======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-4A1814FF; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Electronic Poetry Review #4 The editors of Electronic Poetry Review are pleased to announce the=20 publication of the October 2002 issue, which is now on our site at=20 http://www.poetry.org . We are grateful to the writers and artists who have contributed to the=20 making of EPR 1-4, and we hope you like the new issue (we've added a new=20 search option, as well as a "previous issues" link, both of which should=20 make it easier to find work in back issues). If you have questions or comments about the journal, or if you would like=20 to be added to or removed from our mailing list, please write to us at=20 epr@uiowa.edu . Sincerely, Katherine Swiggart and D.A. Powell, Editors Mary L. Wang, Book Review Editor Emily Johnston, Technical Editor Electronic Poetry Review #4 Essay by Ron Silliman / The Desert Modernism Interview with Bob Perelman / by Nagy Rashwan and Nicholas Zurbrugg Poems by Volker Braun / translated by Cecilia and Matthew Rohrer New poetry by: Matthew Cooperman, Mark Doty, Clayton=20 Eshleman, Rigoberto Gonz=E1lez, Saskia Hamilton, Matthea=20 Harvey, Christine Hume, Rachel Loden, Sheila Murphy, Bob=20 Perelman, Elizabeth Robinson, Tim Seibles, Cole Swensen, Tom=20 Thompson, Susan Wheeler (with art by April Gornik), Sam White, and=20 Rachel Zucker (a collaborative work with Lynn Heitler). Book Reviews: (New book by =B7 Reviewed by) Rae Armantrout =B7 Fred Muratori // Joel Chace =B7 David Berg-Seiter // Norm= a=20 Cole =B7 Patrick F. Durgin // Duo Duo =B7 Kazim Ali // Heather Fuller =B7 K= en=20 Rumble // Katy Lederer =B7 Paul Stephens // Sarah Manguso =B7 Charlotte Man= del=20 // Wallace Mark and Steven Marks =B7 Ken Rumble // Cate Marvin =B7 Aaron Be= lz=20 // Kevin Prufer =B7 Rob Dennis // Mary Ann Samyn =B7 Lynn Domina // Juliana= =20 Spahr =B7 Chris McCreary // Liz Waldner =B7 Chris Pusateri --=======1FC84ACC======= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-avg=cert; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-4A1814FF Content-Disposition: inline --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.394 / Virus Database: 224 - Release Date: 10/3/2002 --=======1FC84ACC=======-- --part1_d3.13311d5a.2ad5a8ac_boundary-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 11:45:16 -0400 Reply-To: managingeditor@sidereality.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Clayton A. Couch" Subject: Re: Electronic Poetry Review #4 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Excellent new issue, by the way. Was especially impressed with the Silliman essay and Perelman interview, and several of the reviews are worth a look or two. Clayton A. Couch Managing Editor, _sidereality_ managingeditor@sidereality.com http://www.sidereality.com -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of RaeA100900@AOL.COM Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 11:44 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Fwd: Electronic Poetry Review #4 I'm forwarding this submission request from the electronic poetry review at the editor's request. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 10:58:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: unsubscribing for awhile MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit If anyone wants to reach me, I'm at aaron@belz.net or 314.781.9690. I'll be travelling for a bit and turning off all sorts of email subscriptions. Best, Aaron Belz http://meaningless.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 10:24:56 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: United Bank (To Our Depositors) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT We cordially invite you to UNITED BANK: an in-windows series at 3945 Chesnut Street, Philadelphia Artists: Rodrigo Toscano, Jeff Derksen, Rita Wong, Louis Cabri, Stefan Abrams, Aaron Levy Exhibit Duration: Oct. 4 - Dec. 2, 2002 Location: Slought Networks Annex (3945 Chestnut Street) Reception: Oct. 18, 2002 6:00 pm - 8:00 pm Slought Networks (4017 Walnut Street) Artist biographies, event information: http://slought.net/toc/calendar/display.php?id=1087 --------------------- "[T]he social command is constituted by 'the presence of a problem in society, whose solution is imaginable only in poetic terms'. One must not confuse this – as it seems that we have tried hard to do for almost half a century – with the 'practical command' (i.e., 'actual commissions') constituted by the existence, in society, of solutions that the poetic work has as its function to illustrate. These two conceptions are irreducible to each other, and do not coincide. […] What remains is to entirely exit this problem, and to denounce, in this relation – social command, practical command – the functioning of ideology as fashion system." —Jean-Claude Montel (1973, French trans. L. Cabri) TO OUR DEPOSITORS Russian poet Vladimir Mayakovsky invented, with critic Osip Brik, the idea of a “social command” – perceptible as “the presence of a problem in society, whose solution is imaginable only in poetic terms.” Fifty years later, French novelist/critic Jean-Claude Montel distinguished between “social command” and “actual commission.” To write from a “social command” is non-reducible to the immediate, instrumental ends of a protest poem commissioned for a particular march or political function. UNITED BANK may be said to listen-up for today’s “social commands” in order to make ideology perceptible as ideology, fashion as fashion. The word “social” exists within every word as a declaration of dependence on the palpable world. Commanding and commanded by this world, every word is a metropolis. --------------------- Poets (in order of appearance): Rodrigo Toscano (October 4-18), Jeff Derksen (October 19-November 2), Rita Wong (November 3-17), Louis Cabri (November 18-December 2). Photographs: Stefan Abrams (October). Installation: Aaron Levy (November). "UNITED BANK," a Slought Networks storefront series, is funded by Facilities and Real Estate Services at the University of Pennsylvania. _______________________ http://phillytalks.org/ http://phillytalks.org/subscribe.php ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 12:33:21 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: Nudel 3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Perhaps what would be most helpful to readers of this list at this point, Nudel, is for you to explain the racism contained in some of your mutterings. The brown bagged beverage and bacon a few days ago. And this strange piece on Chris Webber: http://vox.popula.com/drn/020200.html You get little sympathy here for being oppressed by me. Your wailings are boring and hypocritical. Why don't you post a poem in response to Baraka's poems, instead of your elliptical crybabyisms? I'm just a guy who likes Baraka's work. You just have nothing better to do with yourself. --Jim Behrle _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 12:54:33 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Academy as First World? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Thanks, Mark, for writing about this. I don't agree about the nature of the current situation. But maybe I'm missing a step here? >The problem is that it's increasingly ... impossible for ANY >poetry to come from outside the academic context. ... such poets >can be to greater and greater degree simply ignored ... the increasing >hegemony of academic production means >that ... increasingly, academic success = poetic value ... >Non-academic poets are second rate citizens at best, if they're allowed any >cache as citizens at all. This is a point of view, one that privileges reception within the academy and ignores the active reception of poetry taking place outside the academy, as though the latter were in some way inconsequential. In other words, all of the books being read, Web sites visited, poets and poetry written about in (non-academic) newspapers, magazines and books, all of the work that is discussed verbally. It's a point of view that takes for granted the idea of "the increasing hegemony of academic production" without bringing to bear on the argument the various venues and sites where non-academic poetic production *is* recognized, supported, encouraged, rewarded, and granted status--daily. All of which activity I think matters enormously, to most everyone interested in the art--at least outside the local environment of the academy. Maybe I should ask, since I'm not sure what you mean by "increasing hegemony of academic production" ... can you maybe unpack that? Gary _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 13:39:58 -0400 Reply-To: Allen Bramhall Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Allen Bramhall Subject: NATIONAL LAWYERS GUILD SUPPORTS ACTS OF CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 7:24 PM Subject: National Lawyers Guild Legal Support for civil disobedience in protesting preemptive strike against Iraq > FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: October 3, 2002. > > NATIONAL LAWYERS GUILD SUPPORTS ACTS OF CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE > IN PROTESTING PREEMPTIVE STRIKE AGAINST IRAQ > > Will Provide Legal Support and Materials Regarding Necessity Defense > > The National Lawyers Guild (NLG) condemns George Bush's proposed > preemptive strike and escalation of the ongoing war against Iraq as > violating the Constitution of the United States and the United Nations > Charter. The Guild will seek to provide legal support for individuals and > groups practicing non-violent civil disobedience regarding the "necessity" > defense, which is conduct that an actor believes to be necessary to avoid > harm to himself or to another. Such behavior may be justifiable, provided > that the harm sought to be avoided by such conduct is greater than the > harm which the law defining the offense seeks to prevent. > > "The Guild commits its legal resources to support those who engage in acts > of civil disobedience against such unauthorized military action," says > Guild President Bruce Nestor. The Guild is preparing a legal brief and > supporting materials related to the necessity defense and military action > against Iraq, and will distribute those materials nationally. > > Immediately after the attacks of September 11, 2001, a relatively small > group of individuals in the United States government--primarily President > George W. Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney, Secretary of Defense Donald > Rumsfeld and his Deputy Paul Wolfowitz--began to develop pretexts for > intensified military attacks against Iraq. No credible evidence connects > Iraq to the crimes of September 11. One year later, these officials > formally promulgated a doctrine under which the United States will "act > preemptively," without the legally required authorization of the United > Nations and the international community, or any legitimate claim of > self-defense or defense of others, to bomb and invade Iraq. (National > Security Strategy, Section V). Ongoing unilateral military attacks by the > US against Iraq, consisting of bombing raids in the "no fly zones," are > not authorized by any resolution of the UN Security Council. These > bombing raids, as well as any escalated attacks, violate Article 1, > Section 4 and Articles 41 and 42 of the UN Charter and other provisions of > international law, which as ratified treaties are also part of the > "supreme Law of the Land." (Constitution of the United States, Article VI > Section 2). > > The forthcoming air attacks and invasion of Iraq will kill innocent > civilians, threaten international peace and security, undermine the rule > of law, and create a backlash against the people of the United States. > Under well-accepted general principles of criminal law applicable in every > US jurisdiction, otherwise technically illegal acts may be justified by > the necessity of preventing a greater wrong or danger--a form of > self-defense or defense of others. In this case there is ample legal > necessity and justification for non-violent resistance to these illegal > and immensely destructive, murderous actions by the top officials of the > US government. > > NLG President Bruce Nestor says that "The basic question raised by > continuing and intensifying US aggression against Iraq is moral: whether > US government officials are authorized to decide that the 'price is worth > it,' for millions of people whose lives will be shaped--and in many cases > destroyed--by the criminal actions of a handful of US leaders who hold > themselves above the law." The fundamental principles of international > law and democracy empower individuals to make this moral decision for > themselves, regardless of the contrary actions of their leaders. US > government officials forfeit legitimacy and the power to enforce laws > against non-violent trespass and "disorder" when they pursue policies that > result in war crimes. Non-violent civil disobedience in opposition to the > US government's illegal preemptive wars is justified by the necessity of > self-defense and defense of others. > > The National Lawyers Guild was founded in 1937 as an alternative to the > then-racially segregated American Bar Association. Currently, the NLG has > nearly 5,000 members nationally--lawyers, legal workers, law students and > jailhouse lawyers--committed to using the law as a vehicle for positive > social change. > > CONTACT: > > Bruce D. Nestor, > phone 612.659.9019, > bdnestor@visi.com > > Heidi Boghosian, > phone 212.679.5100, ext. 11, > director@nlg.org > > > *************************************************************************** > > > > Susan Gordon, Director > > Alliance for Nuclear Accountability > www.ananuclear.org > 1914 N 34th, Suite #407, Seattle, WA 98103 > ph 206-547-3175 fax 206-547-7158 > > ANA is a national alliance of organizations working to address > issues of nuclear weapons production and waste clean-up. > > > ============== ALSO ================= > > Subj: [snow] The UN Charter and the Use of Force Against Iraq > Date: 10/4/02 9:22:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time > From: susangordon@earthlink.net > > FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: OCTOBER 3, 2002 > > > CONTACT: John Burroughs, Lawyers' Committee on Nuclear Policy (212 > )818-1861 > > > Jacqueline Cabasso, Western States Legal Foundation (510) 839-5877 > > LAWYERS TELL SENATE: USE OF FORCE AGAINST IRAQ WITHOUT NEW SECURITY > COUNCIL RESOLUTION IS UNLAWFUL; URGE CONGRESS TO UPHOLD U.N. CHARTER > > In a 4-page memo sent to key Senators and Representatives, international > law specialists have told Congress that under the United Nations Charter > the use of force by the United States against Iraq would be unlawful under > present circumstances. The legal memo begins: > > > "The United Nations Charter is a treaty of the United States, and as such > forms part of the 'supreme law of the land' under the Constitution, > Article VI, Clause 2. The UN Charter is the highest treaty in the world, > superseding states' conflicting obligations under any other international > agreement. (Art. 103, UN Charter)." > > The memo concludes: > "Under the UN Charter, there are only two circumstances in which the use > of force is permissible: in collective or individual self-defense against > an actual or imminent armed attack; and when the Security Council has > directed or authorized use of force to maintain or restore international > peace and security. Neither of those circumstances now exist. Absent one > of them, U.S. use of force against Iraq is unlawful." > > According to John Burroughs, Executive Director of the Lawyers' Committee > on Nuclear Policy in New York City, "The implication for resolutions now > being considered by Congress is that, as a matter of law, no resolution > should be adopted which authorizes the United States to use force against > Iraq in the absence of a new Security Council resolution clearly and > specifically authorizing such use. Of course, even if there is a Security > Council resolution at some point which authorizes use of force, it still > remains a question for Congress to decide whether the use of force against > Iraq is wise, moral, or otherwise advisable." Jacqueline Cabasso, > Executive Director of the Western States Legal Foundation in Oakland, > California added, "Adherence to the UN Charter is not optional. It's the > law. The Bush Administration's unilateral headlong rush to war threatens > not only unprecedented regional instability and potentially catastrophic > loss of life, it threatens to do away with the existing international > order." > > The United Nations Charter and the Use of Force Against Iraq, was issued > by the Lawyers' Committee on Nuclear Policy, Western States Legal > Foundation, Michael Ratner of the Center for Constitutional Rights, and > Professor Jules Lobel of the University of Pittsburgh Law School. The > Lawyers' Committee on Nuclear Policy and Western States Legal Foundation > are the U.S. affiliates of the International Association of Lawyers > Against Nuclear Arms. Copies of the memo are available upon request or > on-line at > www.lcnp.org/global/iraqstatement3.htm > or > www.wslfweb.org/docs/Iraqstatemt.htm. > > # # # > > A formatted version of this press release is available on-line at > www.wslfweb.org/docs/iraqpr.pdf > -- > > ************************************** > > Susan Gordon, Director > Alliance for Nuclear Accountability > www.ananuclear.org > 1914 N 34th, Suite #407, Seattle, WA 98103 > ph 206-547-3175 fax 206-547-7158 > > ANA is a national alliance of organizations working to address issues of > nuclear weapons production and waste clean-up. > > > ====================== > > *** NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material > is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest > in receiving the included information for research and educational > purposes. Feel free to distribute widely but PLEASE acknowledge the > original source. *** > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 11:08:00 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: michael ceraolo Subject: 'raging' political debate MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii The current war of postings between Harry Nudnik et al and between Richard Taylor and his various adversaries about the various merits or demerits of certain current governments all reflect the position that particular governments have been, are, or can be qualified to judge the moral fitness of other governments. A knowledge of history of the government that I know best, the American government renders this position untenable. To cite just the two main instances of moral unfitness to judge, I mention that no government in the history of the United States has ever commanded the votes of a majority of its citizens, for a wide variety of well-known reasons; and that no American government has ever lived up to any treaty obligation (not so well-known: think of the 800 or so treaties with native nations, about half of which the U.S. didn't even bother to ratify before proceeding to break them) and so can be in no position to judge any other nation's treaty compliance. I can even anticipate the common response to this posting: such activities may have occurred in the past, but things are different now. Even a cursory glance at the current mainstream media reveals the incredible naivete (or worse) of this position. Michael Ceraolo --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 12:09:31 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: Shelf-Publishing. In-Reply-To: <200210091535.LAA17773@webmail4.cac.psu.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT The top shelf is the one with dust on it. >>Do you HAVE to work at USC to review poetry in the LA TIMES? While that has a long history, I think a lot of it has to do with the proximity of the TIMES offices to 'SC. When I was working in a dog food factory in Vernon, I became attuned to all of the news inches given to the slaughterhouses along the river because they are near the TIMES. But 'SC is good at cultural imperialism. These are no longer MFAs who have never heard of experimental poetry. They are PhDs Marjorie Perloff has said seem bright who (with some notable exceptions) won't deign to talk to people who write experimental poetry. Or, did Wanda Coleman review *poetry* for the LA Times? More alarming is the loss of first the LA Weekly to the Voice, and now the New Times to the Voice. Qualification for reviewing in the Voice or VLS being some sort of NYC presence, if not residence. At least the LA Weekly ran local neoformalist reviews occasionally. Apparently if you are willing to suck up, USC's on-campus literary salon is "open." Be well, Catherine Daly cadaly@pacbell.net that's pacific bell ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 15:03:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Re: unsubscribing for awhile MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Although I don't wish to appear a mere imitator of my worthy colleague Aaron Belz, I'm going to have to unsubscribe for awhile, also. If anybody wants to reach me, my traveling address will be vernonfrazer2002@yahoo.com. Vernon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Belz" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 11:58 AM Subject: unsubscribing for awhile > If anyone wants to reach me, I'm at aaron@belz.net or 314.781.9690. I'll > be travelling for a bit and turning off all sorts of email subscriptions. > > Best, > Aaron Belz > http://meaningless.com > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 15:00:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Re: Academy as First World? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I haven't been following this thread completely, but here's my two cents: People who work in academia don't experience the same world as social workers. Social workers don't experience the same world as auto mechanics, etc. As such, they often lose sight of events happening outside their areas of specialization. The academy does have the power to designate certain writers as part of the canon. A person writing for poetry slams can't do this. Professors can sell copies of their books by placing them on their course readings lists. A non-academic can't do this. By and large, though, the sales aren't going to make a lot of difference in terms of affecting the general culture. (Unfortunately). Although I don't write overtly political poetry---if a poem I write is political it expresses itself as it goes---I don't think any "poetry system, "---academia, slams, etc--- has an advantage in establishing a political poetry. They have equal difficulties in finding an audience. Political poetry can take a variety of forms. As one writer suggested, one form of radical poetry involves questioning the ways in which we use language. On the other hand, Baraka has written a clearly political poem with a message that has stirred up a serious ruckus. You can write political poems which "mean" or "refuse to mean." The average reader will want a simple straightforward message and will still have trouble with Baraka. If you want to play music at a demonstration, Peter Paul & Mary will get a faster response than Schoenberg. As far as any poet getting published in a way that will guarantee them a readership and an influence over the way a society operates on behalf of its citizens, the "Baltimore Bullet" probably has a better chance of finding a publisher for his work than a dedicated poet writing work deserving serious consideration in any format, from sonnet to langpo. Moreover, many people intensely involved in politics are not as intensely interested in literature. Take it for what it's worth. Vernon Frazer ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Sullivan" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 12:54 PM Subject: Academy as First World? > Thanks, Mark, for writing about this. I don't agree about the nature of the > current situation. But maybe I'm missing a step here? > > >The problem is that it's increasingly ... impossible for ANY > >poetry to come from outside the academic context. ... such poets > >can be to greater and greater degree simply ignored ... the increasing > >hegemony of academic production means > >that ... increasingly, academic success = poetic value ... > >Non-academic poets are second rate citizens at best, if they're allowed any > >cache as citizens at all. > > This is a point of view, one that privileges reception within the academy > and ignores the active reception of poetry taking place outside the academy, > as though the latter were in some way inconsequential. In other words, all > of the books being read, Web sites visited, poets and poetry written about > in (non-academic) newspapers, magazines and books, all of the work that is > discussed verbally. > > It's a point of view that takes for granted the idea of "the increasing > hegemony of academic production" without bringing to bear on the argument > the various venues and sites where non-academic poetic production *is* > recognized, supported, encouraged, rewarded, and granted status--daily. All > of which activity I think matters enormously, to most everyone interested in > the art--at least outside the local environment of the academy. > > Maybe I should ask, since I'm not sure what you mean by "increasing hegemony > of academic production" ... can you maybe unpack that? > > Gary > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > http://www.hotmail.com > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 15:20:03 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: the big lie: leading to my interest in The New Black Panthers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Richard, I was pulling your leg a little. Sometimes your writing is like a trip (good or bad), and I was trying to trip from your trip. I do agree that Baraka's poem in question is not anti-Semitic though it is violently anti-Israeli. In fact, he lists the jews as one of the historical victims along with blacks, etc.. Still those lines about 4000.00 Israelis being warned is hard to take. I agree there is something poetic about Mao Tse Tung, his pronouncements, his slogans, his utopian dreams. Did you read Ed Friedman's "Mao and Matisse"? On the other hand, Richard II was a poet king also. Look what happened to him. And what about Ludwig? I know you meant factory figuratively;but the way you were going on, I was sorely tempted. Best. Murat ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 12:56:42 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Damian Judge Rollison Subject: found a poem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII JIM COMPTON'S PHILANTHROPY is so widespread that in a recent tribute to him at the Fund for Peace dinner, David Morey likened knowing Jim to the fable of the blind man who touched different parts of an elephant and each time came up with a different answer about what animal he was touching <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< damian judge rollison department of english university of virginia djr4r@virginia.edu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 16:39:14 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: Salon, PBS, and "Self-Censorship" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Article on Enron Pulled by Salon (full content here): http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/channel.cfm?channelid=105&contentid=601&page =2 Salon, PBS: "Alternative" boldness without the risks of being bold, or THE ARTICLE SALON WON'T RUN ABOUT A FILM THAT PBS WON'T DISTRIBUTE OR BROADCAST http://www.narconews.com/schechter1.html the article Salon changed their mind about: http://www.mediachannel.org/weblog/ the film PBS refuses to run (may be played on yr PBS affiliate anyway thanks to ITVS): http://www.itvs.org/countingondemocracy/ & a request... if you live in the San Francisco area and get PBS affiliate KQED, would you be able to tape the broadcast of this film for me? It airs on Sunday 10/20/02 @ 6:00 PM. Patrick Patrick Herron patrick@proximate.org !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !Getting Close Is What! ! We're All About(TM) ! !http://proximate.org/! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 18:32:14 -0230 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K.Angelo Hehir" Subject: American Toy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII please tell me this is a parody by BKS or Claude Lemaitre. Subject: [mgp] Sick American Toy JC Penney is offering a very disturbing gift for the kids this year: "Forward Command Post," a bomb-destroyed home complete with a soldier & an American flag to crown it with. For a photo of this monstrosity, try: http://www3.jcpenney.com/jcp/Products.asp?GrpTyp=PRD&ItemID=05b5baa&RefPa or go to www.jcpenney.com search in the "Toys" section for: Forward Command Post E-mail them at: http://www.jcpenneyeservices.com/csrv/emailus.asp Re: Item# IH655-0158A ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 17:16:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Re: Academy as First World? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi Vernon: >The academy does have the power to designate certain writers >as part of the canon. A person writing for poetry slams can't do this. I know what you mean, but I'm still not with this idea that poetic value is created increasingly by the academy. A "slam" person--Bob Holman, for instance--can co-edit a poetry guide on about.com that I would guess has at least as many (probably more) active readers as Norton. Take a look at these Amazon.com sales rankings for two books, both published in 1994: Aloud: Voices from the Nuyorican Poets' Cafe Amazon sales rank: 21,579 Postmodern American Poetry: A Norton Anthology Amazon sales rank: 40,459 _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 17:19:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: American Toy In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII It doesn't seem to be a parody. The price is on par with the starting price for Barbie houses. The "World Peacekeeper Set" is cheaper -- $25 for a sandbagged little zone, with soldier included, and a whole mess o' grenades. Rather a Reaganesque definition of "peacekeeper." Gwyn McVay --- "Real as a raven" -- The Grateful Dead, "Easy To Love You," Mydland/Barlow ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 17:19:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: schwartzgk Subject: Re: American Toy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit No, it's there...I saw it at a Rochester, New York store about two weeks ago. But that's only the half of it...all toy stores...everywhere are arming themselves to the teeth with every hideous commando/metamorpho thing possible...the build-up's been underway since about July... ...I wonder what will happen to all those toys should we not actually go into Iraq...Or is it all well-timed so that when they're all sold by CHRISTmas, every kid will be well-armed by the January/February invasion? Hmmm... Gerald ----- Original Message ----- From: "K.Angelo Hehir" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 5:02 PM Subject: American Toy > please tell me this is a parody by BKS or Claude Lemaitre. > > Subject: [mgp] Sick American Toy > > JC Penney is offering a very disturbing gift for the kids this year: > "Forward Command Post," a bomb-destroyed home complete with a soldier & an American flag to crown it with. > > For a photo of this monstrosity, try: > http://www3.jcpenney.com/jcp/Products.asp?GrpTyp=PRD&ItemID=05b5baa&RefPa > or go to www.jcpenney.com search in the "Toys" section > for: Forward Command Post > > E-mail them at: > http://www.jcpenneyeservices.com/csrv/emailus.asp > Re: Item# IH655-0158A > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 14:33:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: CELIA CURTIS Comments: To: 7-11@mail.ljudmila.org, ImitationPoetics@listserv.unc.edu, o-o@konf.lt, webartery@yahoogroups.com, syndicate@anart.no, _arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au, owner-realpoetik@scn.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PENTULTIMATE DYNAMIC INTERPLAY #0001 by CELIA CURTIS www.wired-paris-review.com TO HIS SON ANTOINE THANKED ME GRATEFULLY AND AT THE OF MY SEPARATE => SHE DISENGAGED NONE => OBEY => AND RAN TO RELIGION => DIGGER => MATELOT => JUNGLE BUT ECONOMICS => PRIEST => PRIESTHOOD => HAVE TOLD AS FLIGHT => FRAY => AFTER FLIGHT => FRAY => KIPPERS => MUSLIN => STROVE TO WRITINGS AND THE PROMENADE => STACK => I HAD OBTAINED WITH GARDEN => LODGE => ACCORDANCE => ALL => OF OF IN SLEEPS => SLEEP => PERSON DECEIT => HOOF => HURDLE => WASTING SICKNESS BUT LITTLE ONES RECOLLECT => IS LIST => NEWS => A BIRD SONG IT YOU LANDS => LAWYERS => AND A SCOLDED => ON THE TAKE => TALES => THE KIPPERS => MUSLIN => FOLLOWED WERE FEW AND TO FOREGO FALLIBLE|FLAX => WHICH ROLES => ROMANTICISM => INTO THE TILES THE SUCCESSIVE HARDER => PRACTICE => OF AND OF REVOLUTIONS THAT WHEN IT DID COME IT WOULD IN ALL ARE SHRUNKEN AND DEMONSTRATION => THERE SEEMS A OF IN THE DIARY => JAILOR => WHICH APPEARED ON THE FROM BUT IN OF ARE AS WONG => CHAIN => IT IS NO ENSEMBLE => ERG => A CATER => BILLS => THAT WHEN HIS CIRCUMSTANCE => OUGHT TO HAVE BEEN DELINQUENT => HE HAD KNOT => THE CASTLE => CASTLES => WHICH WOULD HAVE BEEN PLAID => PLANNING => AS THERE IS NOT A WASTED IT HAS GIVE => UNDRESSED => TO ME THAT IN AN WRIGGLING|CRAWLER => OF TRANSITION IN PRINCIPLES WHICH MOVING => PACKED => WAS TO CONSULATE => ETHER => THROWN HEATHEN => HECK => INTO EXAMINING WHAT THE CRAWLY => WHEN IT THE VERACITY READINESS TO OFFICIAL|ENROL => HARES => HEELS => AND MISUSE => OFFENCE => RETURNING TO IT UNTIL IT WAS CLEARED UP; 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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.394 / Virus Database: 224 - Release Date: 10/3/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 14:37:53 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: CELIA CURTIS #2 Comments: To: 7-11@mail.ljudmila.org, ImitationPoetics@listserv.unc.edu, o-o@konf.lt, webartery@yahoogroups.com, syndicate@anart.no, _arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au, owner-realpoetik@scn.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PENTULTIMATE DYNAMIC INTERPLAY #0002 by CELIA CURTIS www.wired-paris-review.com CONNECT => DARN => STAKES AT A AND QUARTER AT THAT HE WAS LEADIN INTO THE AT PLUM|CHUMP => HERE IS SHY A WHEN YOU YOU THE TUMBLER => WHISK => ROBE => SATISFY => WAS A ADAMCHRISTMAS => FOR ME FOR WHAT COULD SAY TO THE CAPER => CHILDISH => THE TO THE SHOULDER => EQUALITY => ESSAYS => WIN SWORE THAT EXAMS => FROWN => IN WITH THE HE POURED INTO FRACTION => FURTIVE => AND PREGNANCY => WITH IT INTER => THE THE CAPER => CHILDISH => PITCHED HEADLONG FROM THE BUCKSKIN EQUALITY => ESSAYS => ALL => DO YOU THAT LIVINGSTONE WAS THE STRENGTH => COGITATE => HIKE => AND THE RINK => ABILITY => WHEN THERE WAS NO OF IT THE LUCK => HARDNESS => TO THE AND HIS WALLOP => STOOPING WAS DISFIGURED BY A STAINED-FRACTION => FURTIVE => CLUBS => CRACKERJACK => HE WAS IN HOWEVER CHOCOLATE => A SOUGHT|OUGHT TO => WITH HIS ACTING => ACTOR => BUT HE WAS NOT SUFFRAGE BUT HAS ITS SCRAPE => SEAT => GOVERNING VICARIOUS => AND ACTS IN UNDER => VESSELS => AND THEN FELL INTO A OF HYSTERICAL WOULDNA SAY INSECTS => LONG => SHE HAD THE OF THIEF => VALIANT => AND DEMURE IN LEISURE => LOCH => TUESDAY MATCHBOX => PADDING => I INFERRED THAT THEY WRE MEDITATED THE THE CORONER => DISPENSE => EVERYTHING => TO WIN THE CHARACTER => PAINT => HE HAD OFFERED IN THE WERE THE UP => GRANT => HATE => WAS INSECTS => LONG => BUT NO STILLER THAN IS SUPPLY => SWEEPER => IN THERE IT IS I YOU DART ON US EATER => ENOUGH => ARE UNLEARNED WITH OR MARKETING => SEQUENCE => SERIES => TO HIM BY MALLOWS AND STEDMAN AND THEN GIVING THE SCIENTIFIC => ON CAREFULLY => IN THE IMPORTANT => LOFTY => DEGREE => HONOURS => TO THE POSSESSION => RULES => I OFF => PUSS => YOU WHAT DO-I YOU YOUR PROVOST => SERVICE => OF AMAZE => CONJURORS => WAYS THOUGH DUSTY AS THE CORNICHE IS AND INSECTS => LONG => WITH THE REACTOR => BUT BLUFF-PACKED => PROMPT => TO BE THE BURGER => BURIAL => GORGEOUS => HEAVE => SO HE ME A RESTLESS MOANING CRYING BEFORE THE IS THERE ANY HARDLY => ALONE => OF THE TRANSACTION THE CUMMINGS WEARINESS WHICH DID NOT SAY LED => LUGGAGE => FOR THE APPEAL => CHASTITY => HE HAD PASSED HE SEEKERS => TO SEE THAT ALL AMAZE => CONJURORS => INEVITABLY HAVE LED TO THE SCIENTIFIC => SEMEN => IN TELEGRAM => URGE => SMEAR => AND LUCK => HARDNESS => THE GAME => HOLIDAY => GATHERED HIS THE HOW SHOULD THE HAVE HAUGHTYVAIN => TO TO WIT => WORDS => UNLESS HAD SPECULATION YOUR EMBASSY => PROBABLE => YOU MUSTN'T BE THE OF THE SLAVES IN THAT THAT THERE EXISTED COAGULATE => BLOOD => PROBABLE => THEN IF YOU HE HAD THE TO ECSTASY => FITS => DON'T WAS LOVELINESS => LOVER => TO OFF => PUSS => ME THAT THE ARMS WERE ALL => OR => AS SHE DETECTED WHEN YOUR PHONETIC DISTURBANCES BUT YOU DAREN'T WHAT THE AGRICULTURE => BUT TEXAS DRAWBRIDGE => BEEN COMMITTEE => IN INSECTS => LONG => OF INIQUITY DRAWBRIDGE => BEEN THIEF => VALIANT => WAVERTON BROADER => BUSY => ON THE SHOULDER => POSSESSES A ACTING => ACTOR => BEEN BOOMING IT FOR ALL THEY EXPEDIENT => FIT => BY JOVE IF THEY COULD PROTECTED => OF HIS HE LOOKS STARVATION|RATS => A HIS FLANKS AIN'T PUMPIN NEED => IRE => MAID => YOU GAINED INSECTS => LONG => LITTLE FROM HER SHOULD SAY IN THE IDLENESS OF THAT VOID => HISTORY => BARREN => SIMSON WITH NOT FLATTERERS AND UNDER TO ANY EQUALITY => ESSAYS => EATER => ENOUGH => TOLD THE DENIAL => DISCOMFORT => TANGIBLE ASSEMBLY => OF THIS BREAKFAST => WAS VIOLENT DRILLS => BURGLAR => IRONING => LEANING => OF SHOPPING => REALISM AND VIVIDNESS THAT OVERBORE ANY PULLOVER => OF DIVE => MOUNT => A SOCIETY => STATIONS => CARAT ROCKET => RODENTS => ROUNDABOUT => A DAZZLER => TO THE BELT => BITTEN => BYE => CLASSES THOUGH DIFFERING FROM DEBTS|CREDITS => OF SHOULDER => A SIWASH PERFECTLY PREGNANCY => IT MIGHT BE BAGLEY FOLLOWED IT MOUSSE => TO ME IN MY FOOTSTEPS PINNACLE => APPEARANCE AND EXISTING => FABULOUS => THAN EQUALITY => ESSAYS => HOG THAT THE NEGROES DECLARED HAD BUT YOU WERE ON HIM IN AND FLUNG IT OUT OF THE INSECTS => LONG => CLUBS => CRACKERJACK => WHICH GAPED ME IN THE HAVE A AND MARKETING => LONG => LOUD => --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.394 / Virus Database: 224 - Release Date: 10/3/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 16:41:13 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dcmb Subject: Re: Shelf-Publishing. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Catherine: my info is 14 years out-of-date.but when my book won the Wesern States Award , the LA Times ran a poem of mine because they said they no longer reviewed poetry. (I thought this was a good trade-off). David Bromige -----Original Message----- From: Catherine Daly To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 12:08 PM Subject: Re: Shelf-Publishing. The top shelf is the one with dust on it. >>Do you HAVE to work at USC to review poetry in the LA TIMES? While that has a long history, I think a lot of it has to do with the proximity of the TIMES offices to 'SC. When I was working in a dog food factory in Vernon, I became attuned to all of the news inches given to the slaughterhouses along the river because they are near the TIMES. But 'SC is good at cultural imperialism. These are no longer MFAs who have never heard of experimental poetry. They are PhDs Marjorie Perloff has said seem bright who (with some notable exceptions) won't deign to talk to people who write experimental poetry. Or, did Wanda Coleman review *poetry* for the LA Times? More alarming is the loss of first the LA Weekly to the Voice, and now the New Times to the Voice. Qualification for reviewing in the Voice or VLS being some sort of NYC presence, if not residence. At least the LA Weekly ran local neoformalist reviews occasionally. Apparently if you are willing to suck up, USC's on-campus literary salon is "open." Be well, Catherine Daly cadaly@pacbell.net that's pacific bell ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 19:58:33 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: how can you make poetry out of this stuff? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII today. fifty feet from today. here. i don't don't remember remember her her name. name. i heard it it today. there dollars are to candles help and ship we her gave body five back dollars to to there help are ship candles body we back gave mexico. (we gave back mexico.) she a was child nineteen and married moved with recently a away child from had was moved nineteen recently and away married the mexican restaurant. (she had one child or two children.) restaurant there itself are is few odd customers few the customers restaurant some is people odd suspicious of its are activity. suspicious man her stalking the followed she into a didn't and know him. (she went out of it knowing and not knowing him.) he the two was knives. married strong, but big, he woman brought but her brought she outside. a if or forced she outside willingly. or i came if willingly. her killed of on the sidewalk and in today front the today the blood blood cleaned cleaned up up knife knife gone. gone. ran the around east corner then towards south east flatbush then ran south around flatbush corner avenue. (he slashed and ran out of them.) doctor's and office was apprehended into there. a photograph a window call number a you photograph may in call the offer condolences information. offer husband's is number. her all up streets here torn new here in. as all new the construction streets comes are in. torn am above streets. (call across the torn streets.) === ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 20:12:22 -0400 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: kinko L. & me just produced two new books..Me & Me (too) so vat else..2 copies in toto...one for each of us...locally grown at the nabe KinKo...if you want to see them...in the dead heart of Chanel & Movado SOHO.....e. for appntment..tues and thur aft best...so nu vy not..DRn.. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 17:35:14 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: Shelf-Publishing. In-Reply-To: <002201c26fed$5bb4c0e0$db96ccd1@CeceliaBelle> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT they ran reviews, but only by USC faculty then they ran no reviews and they ran poems published by local places, etc. then they ran reviews by USC faculty then they ran poems which could have only been chosen by USC faculty and the occasional poem by a USC faculty-member (which they still do) then they started running reviews by USC faculty Rgds, Catherine ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:35:23 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Pam=20Brown?= Subject: inside/outside the academy In-Reply-To: <3DA65498@webmail3> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Poeticists, I'll probably sound a bit off-topic here but I thought most poets who work as academics do it more-than-partly because, usually, there's no salary paid for writing poetry. Cheerio from Pam Brown --- mdw wrote: > I agree with Joe Amato that Andrew Rothman's notion > that the most daring > poetry must come from the outside is relentlessly > romantic and more than a > little out of date. > > That said, I think that Joe and Maria's defense of > how poetry CAN take place > along the seams, let's say, of academic life--an > argument I myself have often > made--feels less and less adequate to my sense of > contemporary poetic > circumstances. > > The problem, as I see it, is not that daring poetry > MUST come from outside the > academic context. The problem is that it's > increasingly--not absolutely, > increasingly--impossible for ANY poetry to come from > outside the academic > context. > > I'm not saying that there aren't many great poets > who are not academics, by > any means--we have a bunch here in DC, people like > Heather Fuller, Rod Smith, > Buck Downs. But the problem is that such poets can > be to a greater and greater > degree simply ignored, beyond the local environment. > Again, not absolutely. > But more and more so. > > It was possible, perhaps even through the 70s? the > 80s? for poets to establish > significant profiles as poets by publishing, their > whole lives, entirely in > the small presses and small magazines. But at best, > now, such poets receive > marginal attention, if any at all. > > So, sure, poetry can be written outside the academic > world, and sure, it can > be written inside the academic world. I find both > those points true, if a > little obvious, since poetry has an amazing ability > to be written under ANY > circumstances. But the increasing hegemony of > academic production means that, > these days, increasingly, academic success=poetic > value, in the short run > anyway (who knows what of this poetry will survive? > does it matter to us?). > Non-academic poets are second rate citizens at best, > if they're allowed any > cache as citizens at all. > > My challenge then is this: more attention needs to > be paid to poets who are > not part of the academic machine, or who are more > marginally part of it, not > because they're better, but just because, you know, > they MIGHT be. > > I'd love to see a list of poets you like, right now, > who are not primarily top > shelf academics. Let's discuss their work at least > for once. > > Maintain the possibility of, sometimes, stepping > outside-- > > Mark Wallace ===== Web site/P.Brown - http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Workshop/7629/ http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger for SMS - Always be connected to your Messenger Friends ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 11:21:04 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: komninos zervos Subject: Re: inside/outside the academy In-Reply-To: <20021010003523.31257.qmail@web12005.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-4CC482D; boundary="=======40085EFA=======" --=======40085EFA======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-4CC482D; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit is it just my email client or is it the buffalo server? but all my posts from ubpoetics have the return address of the original poster removed so you can't tell who its from if they haven't signed their post, and you can't backchannel to original poster. are others having the same problem? komninos --=======40085EFA======= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-avg=cert; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-4CC482D Content-Disposition: inline --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.394 / Virus Database: 224 - Release Date: 3/10/02 --=======40085EFA=======-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 20:32:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: SOME TRIBUTES TO BOB COBBING In-Reply-To: <20021010003523.31257.qmail@web12005.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v543) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit here are some very heart-felt & poetically detailed accounts about a man who spent the last 40+ years arousing community, experimentation, & networking into an invented lifestyle choice... SOME TRIBUTES TO BOB COBBING http://www.indigogroup.co.uk/llpp/tributes.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 21:55:26 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Rothenberg Subject: Reed College Celebration of Philip Whalen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE ** Please post and distribute ** Spare Room and the Reed College Alumni Association present PHILIP WHALEN: A CELEBRATION Sunday October 20 2:00 - 4:00 pm Reed College Chapel Portland, Oregon (Reception following, in Faculty Lounge) Free admission; all ages welcome Inspired poet, Zen abbot, and Beat Generation Reedie, Portland native=20 Philip Whalen passed away this June in San Francisco. On what would have = been his 79th birthday, local writers, old friends, and Reed College=20 students and faculty will join in celebrating his life and work.=20 Reminiscences and readings of Whalen's poems will be accompanied by=20 excerpts from documentary films about the poet, produced by the American = Poetry Archives at San Francisco State University. Readers and speakers will include Moshe Lenske, Lois Baker, David=20 Biespiel, Dan Raphael, Alice Moss, Rosemary Lapham Berleman, Carol=20 Baker, Kathleen Worley, Gabriella Ekman, Chris Piuma, Laura Feldman,=20 David Abel, Alicia Cohen, Greta Marchesi, Mark Owens, Ashley Edwards,=20 Krista Hanson, and Anjelina Keating. Reed College is located at 3203 SE Woodstock Boulevard; the Chapel and=20 Faculty Lounge are in Eliot Hall (the main building facing Woodstock, in = the center of the campus). Parking is available in three college lots,=20 the East lot being the closest to Eliot Hall. For more information, call David Abel at 503-233-4562, or call the Spare Room dial-a-poem line at 503-236-8067 Attached: Biographical background for Philip Whalen For a comprehensive collection of Web links related to Whalen's life and = work, see . Spare Room is a semi-regular reading series with a focus on innovative=20 writing. BIOGRAPHICAL BACKGROUND: Philip Glenn Whalen was born on October 20, 1923 in Portland, Oregon and = grew up in The Dalles. After serving in the Army Air Forces as a radio=20 mechanic in WW II, he attended Reed College on the GI Bill. Among his=20 classmates were fellow poets Gary Snyder and Lew Welch. "He was a poet's poet," said Gary Snyder, on hearing of his friend's=20 death. "His intelligence and skill is very subtle and very deep. There=20 are many poets who feel in his debt." Snyder and Whalen exchanged=20 letters for many years, "about politics, philosophy, literature,=20 poetics, Buddhist practice and Buddhist thought -- all on a kind of fun=20 level . . . He reminded me of Dr. Samuel Johnson. His humor was dry,=20 witty, ironic and learned," said Snyder. "It was always very = instructive." During his army days Whalen had read Gertrude Stein, and a week-long=20 visit to Reed by William Carlos Williams in 1947 further stimulated his=20 interest in poetry. In the summer of 1951 he moved to San Francisco,=20 meeting Jack Kerouac and Allen Ginsberg soon after. (He appears in=20 fictionalized form in two of Kerouac's novels: as Ben Fagan in Big Sur=20 and Warren Coughlin in Dharma Bums.) On October 6, 1955, Whalen joined Jack Kerouac, Allen Ginsberg, Michael=20 McClure, Philip Lamantia, and Gary Snyder for the historic Six Gallery=20 reading (at which Ginsberg's "Howl" was first publicly heard). Organized = by poet Kenneth Rexroth, the reading took place in a former auto repair=20 shop at Fillmore and Union for an audience of 150. The poets -- most of=20 whom hadn't met before that night -- became instant celebrities, and the = "San Francisco Renaissance" (as it came to be known) was in full swing.=20 Whalen's work began appearing in print with regularity thereafter, and=20 was included in Donald Allen's epochal anthology The New American Poetry = in 1959. From 1958 until 1971 Whalen lived mostly in Japan: "That was when I was = doing a lot of writing. I would write every morning." In 1959 his first=20 book, Self-Portrait, from Another Direction, was published by the=20 Auerhahn Press in San Francisco. Memoirs of an Interglacial Age and=20 another volume of poems, Like I Say, appeared in 1960. More than twenty=20 books, including three novels, followed during Whalen's life. Whalen eventually returned to San Francisco and the Hartford Street Zen=20 Center, where he spent most of the rest of his life. He was ordained a=20 Zen Buddhist monk in 1973, taking the name Zenshin Ryufu=20 ("Zen-mind-dragon-wind"), and later became Abbot, caring for AIDS=20 patients until his own ill-health prevented that. "A degenerative eye disease stopped him writing and reading in 1987; but = friends would read aloud to him and he was able to have a weekly sushi=20 meal with Michael McClure and Diane diPrima. The darkness must have been = a burden to such an erudite and literate man but he bore it with=20 consistent humour and energy: when I saw him last a few years ago I had=20 only to mention a book and he was up and moving, his arm swinging to the = exact spot on the shelf," wrote British poet Tom Raworth in an obituary=20 in the Independent. In his last days, Whalen maintained his wit and self-deprecating style;=20 when asked by a friend if he wanted a milkshake, he replied, "No, I'd=20 like what they gave Socrates," and discussing his funeral with friends=20 whom he thought were treating the subject too morbidly, he said: "I'd=20 like to be laid on a bed of frozen raspberries." Philip Whalen died June 26, 2002 in San Francisco. Michael Rothenberg walterblue@bigbridge.org Big Bridge www.bigbridge.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 21:17:07 -0700 Reply-To: Lanny Quarles Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lanny Quarles Subject: oneirokritika Comments: To: list@rhizome.org, Kenji Siratori , joe , jbberry@hiwaay.net, iarguell@hotmail.com, ficus@citynet.net, edx , edx , edx , Eggvert8@aol.com, "chris@trnsnd" , xtant@cstone.net, WRYTING-L@listserv.utoronto.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable oneirokritika: abnihilisation of the etym (avatara-diorama) http://www.hevanet.com/solipsis/desktopcollage/oneirokritika.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 00:36:13 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Academy as First World? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think Gary's analysis is on the nose. Slam readings and the web itself have created new ways of communicating and reading, which are having a slow, often checkered, but profound effect on the nature of poetry. Murat ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 22:19:45 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Jullich Subject: Re: Academy as First World? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii (With all due respect, if I may---) I take it that what those Amazon numbers (uninterpreted and uncaptioned) are meant to self-evidently prove is that the book ~Aloud,~ by out-selling the Norton Post-Modern Anthology there, carries a greater value on that particular scale: poetic value would not, then, be created increasingly or solely by the academy. The academic Norton Anthology has only half the numerical clout of the non-/anti-academic ~Aloud.~ But that very measurement of Amazon sales rates is a barometer or thermometer that indicates something very different from that claim! A higher sales ranking (~Aloud~: 21,579) is seen as better, more "successful" than a lower ranking (Norton: 40,459) because 21,579 approaches closer to the magical stratosphere of bestsellers, Top Ten and Numero Uno. But where the highest value equals highest ranking finds Numero Uno to in fact be "I Don't Know How She Does It: The Life of Kate Reddy, Working Mother", number 2 to be "Live from New York: An Uncensored History of Saturday Night Live", number 5 to be "Bringing Down the House: The Inside Story of Six MIT Students Who Took Vegas for Millions", or even the lofty number 12 to be "The Sopranos Family Cookbook: As Compiled by Artie Bucco", the value is anything but what could be called poetic value! The value is no longer even literary. The value of ~Aloud~ being that much further up the totem pole, rather, becomes its being all that much closer to and sharing in whatever the mysterious qualities of even number 22, "I'm Gonna Like Me: Letting Off a Little Self-Esteem" by Jamie Lee Curtis--- Whatever the definite function is that those books serve in the life of their consumers (I don't want to be sneering or contemptuous of those consumers' rights to read whatever pastimes they choose), it's simply not at all the same chemistry or universe as anything that like "poetic value." Vernon's point about the canon ---and his key-word was, I think, "power"--- is that, with the canon, you reach into posterity and the future: right or wrong and although it changes over time, the canon is what's passed from generation to generation, with all the authority that accrues from that. It's a ~long-term~ bond or investment. It owns tomorrow. But what the Amazon top numbers bespeak is completely the converse: it's willfully ephemeral, it's journalistic, it's "Dare to Repair: A Do-It-Herself Guide to Fixing (Almost) Anything in the Home", number 19. The academic has in fact made a greater ~prior~ value investment ---in tuition, mainly, and probably in time and effort, studying, often geographically relocating to school--- to reach being part of the target audience of the Norton Anthology than the ~Aloud~-shopper likely makes, having found out about it through hometown slams, radio, etc. Value of any kind is constituted in different ways. (I am no longer, incidentally, arguing for or against academic/non-academic being "better." That's all too tired and, at this sulphurous hour, lilliputian and, as Gerald Stern said, pathetic, like legislation for firing the dog catcher. What I am trying to emphasis is how these measures can be ~different~ from each other, different to the point of non-equivalent.) The sheer democratic force of your good populism is commendable, but--- That added dimension of ~power~ has to be plotted back into any appraisal of value, realistically. It's not only a question of x-many bought X and y-many bought Y (that plain a question yields chiefly the value of profit, to the booksellers, publishers, and so on) but ~who~ comprises x and ~who~ comprises y. A small circulation but high production Palm Beach magazine I read while on vacation, with a weekly column written by Prince Michel of Yugoslavia and a feature by H.R.H. The Prince of Wales about his private gardens, proudly announces that its small readership and subscriber base has a per capita income of so many million dollars! or so many hundred thousand. That's the bottom line that underscores the academia question. It's all very lovely to prize Everyman and every reader in some sort of Whitmanian magnanimity, but the charm and patina of such humanism, like virtue, has its own reward, and is operating outside the strictures or principles of value formation. I believe there may also be distortion in generalizing from the prolific non-academic poetry establishments ~that we find in New York City~ to elsewhere. Elsewhere, only a few miles outside the metropolitan centers, there is simply ~nothing,~ as far as poetry. There's $12.95 per page for an on-line essay on "My Last Duchess." http://www.essays.cc/free_essays/e5/qmr231.shtml We'll never revisit the poetic purity of audience that J. Gallagher has reading to her cats and daughter ( http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0210&L=poetics&D=1&P=14327 ). {Meow.} ------------------------------------------------------- Hi Vernon: >The academy does have the power to designate certain writers >as part of the canon. A person writing for poetry slams can't do this. I know what you mean, but I'm still not with this idea that poetic value is created increasingly by the academy. A "slam" person--Bob Holman, for instance--can co-edit a poetry guide on about.com that I would guess has at least as many (probably more) active readers as Norton. Take a look at these Amazon.com sales rankings for two books, both published in 1994: Aloud: Voices from the Nuyorican Poets' Cafe Amazon sales rank: 21,579 Postmodern American Poetry: A Norton Anthology Amazon sales rank: 40,459 __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 01:24:16 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nuyopoman@AOL.COM Subject: Bowery Poetry Club Museletter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Bowerians, dear friends, The "Opening" last week was massive. The VOICE bigged us up, we're getting bigger crowds, we're energized. We need you, our central folk, our peeps, more than ever. POETRY MUST BE HEARD to stop war, censorship, to unite us patriots! So come see, " Clayton Eshelman on Aime Cesaire, tonight, Wednesday the 9th at 10 " Uncle Jimmy's Dirty Basement, every Fri & Sat in Oct. at 8. Why do we believe so in this dada rock puppet spectacle? Because it lives freedom & joy, makes you sing, think smart, and play Cheese Hockey. Bob sez, It's Guaranteed! Reservations recommended. 212-614-0505 " Taylor Mead! Every Friday at 7. Downtown's demiurge finally has a room of her own. " Sat., Oct. 11 at 10. If you want to see the new hiphop (which is, btw, the New Poetry) pay a visit to "The Ambassador": Toni Blackman, who IS hiphop's Ambassador to the World, presents an all-star cast. What is freestyle? Will be answered, jawdroppingly. " Sun, Oct 12 at 5: a performance of Russian Absurdist poetry and theater. OBERIU, the 1930's movement, live, in a bilingual "World of Poetry" reading. " And we welcome The Segue Series, every Saturday at 4. Check out www.bowerypoetry.com for our complete annotated schedule. And svp note upcoming readings by Anne Waldman with Jim Carroll, a residency by hiphop theater improv posse, Playback NYC, our every Wednesday late-nite hiphop horn band, Mental Notes, a stint by the Maestro of New Jazz, Butch Morris, and a four-night run by embattled Poet Laureate of New Jersey (as of now), Amiri Baraka. If you want to see Bob Holman in action, check the (almost every) Monday Free4All. And our National Championship Slam Team, Urbana, is in session every Thursday at 7:30. IOW, folks, we needs you. The coffee shop opens at 9 (11 on weekends), and our Happy (2-for-1) Hour is 5-7. Cheerios. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 22:40:19 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dcmb Subject: Re: Shelf-Publishing. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for the update. Sounds to be a frustrating state of affairs. why do you suppose USC has a stranglehold, when for e.g. UCLA must have persons equally capable? David -----Original Message----- From: Catherine Daly To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 5:34 PM Subject: Re: Shelf-Publishing. they ran reviews, but only by USC faculty then they ran no reviews and they ran poems published by local places, etc. then they ran reviews by USC faculty then they ran poems which could have only been chosen by USC faculty and the occasional poem by a USC faculty-member (which they still do) then they started running reviews by USC faculty Rgds, Catherine ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 23:53:32 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jessica beard Subject: 0ct 31 sf reading MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii i dont know how many bay area people are on this list, but those that are should try to make it out to san francisco state on halloween day (430pm) to see alejandro murgia read at the poetry center. he is a great fiction writer, poetry writer and has been a great literary voice for the chicano community as well as an activist in latin america. his short story in winter 93 zyzzyva is awesome as is his book of short stories, southern front( about international volunteers who go to nicaragua to join the sandanistas). mostly interesting to me is his collaborative effort : volcan an anthology of latin american poetry in translation. i also had him as an instructor and he was quite inspiring and challenging. hope some of you can go! jb __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 00:59:18 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: CELIA CURTIS #3 Comments: To: 7-11@mail.ljudmila.org, ImitationPoetics@listserv.unc.edu, o-o@konf.lt, webartery@yahoogroups.com, syndicate@anart.no, _arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au, owner-realpoetik@scn.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PENTULTIMATE DYNAMIC INTERPLAY #0003 by CELIA CURTIS www.wired-paris-review.com AEROPLANE => AIRY => THE INTO MY ON THE ANARCHIST => SUSPICION => AND SCIENCE QUIETLY WAS PERSISTENTLY DENIED TO HIM BY AND ALIKE IT WAS VERANDAH AND NO PASSING THE KINGDOM => COULD SEE ME UNLESS HE HIS TO THE MAGISTRATE WERE EXAMS => AND ON THE YOU DON'T A THAT YOU SAY YOU FORWARDS => HE BELIEVED THAT THE MURDERER WAS IN PERTH IT WAS EATERS => METHS => OF THE SUGAR => CHIROPODY => WHEN THE SCAFFOLDING GAVE BALCONY => AND NIGHTS => RELAXATION => ALTAR => MACKEREL => ROYCE => WERE ASKED BY THE FOR THE PROSECUTION BUT HE US THERE IS A PEDLAR => BEGGING => US YOU ARGUMENTCONFERENCE => ON HIM AND IT REMAINED HE WEATHER|RAISE => HER WITH HER HOUSEWIVES => YES HE GLARE => GLASS => ABOUT AGO THE HAS EXCLAMATION OF MOOR => RAMBLING => WHEN SHE WEATHER|RAISE => HER TO DO SO BUT WHEN I MY PERCHANCE => OF I WAS OBLIGED TO HAVE BEEN SKYLINE => SUNNY => SUCH RECORDED AND FOR YOUR RELIEF ME MILLIONS => RICH => AT THE PENSION AND HERE DEVIL => DOWNWARDS => BUT WE NOT I --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.394 / Virus Database: 224 - Release Date: 10/3/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 06:44:53 -0400 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: John Weners Memorial..St. Mark's.."in the glamour of this hour" No food..so the usual sick crew was busy was busy slicing cold meat off the cadaver & serving it on toast....Vincent Katz had the best clothes...Good Jesuit Education...when A.G. kept interrupting his reading in a class..Jn sd..."why don't you call the embassy and tell them you're Allen Ginsberg and they'll provide you with a translation"...shop&stop...crystal & donuts..a sad old man living off the state...Weiners was 5x the poet of Koch so he drew 1/5 the audience...poetic justice...i saw him in Buffalo in all night diners...a stange man? pony tailed..twirling coffee...i was too scared to speak to my shadow let alone him...speak up young man....a star to who can tell us the title of Poem for Cocksuckers in the original 1958 Hotel Wentley Poems.."Up the st. under the wheels/ of a strange car is his stash- The ritual./ We make it. And have made it....beat end in is the end..DRn... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 06:56:13 -0400 Reply-To: Allen Bramhall Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Allen Bramhall Subject: pleasant day for readership MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Congress has wrapped up an ingle and provided safely, as against the norm, a perhaps yours is not so big. wellness is a vinyl whipping post, modest alerts and stay, the blasted dream ignites. the theory loses itself in days like these, so framed with mere horrid grey clouds to describe. the theory allows Congress the insight that you, dear reader, and I, dear writer, lack in suds along the Hudson's famous shoreline. terrific intake of warm air allows large heads to speak their mines. these mines are fertile areas of expertise, wet as the president's daylong search for a better word. be assured, the better word will come together letter by letter, with a new mailing address when finally. and the eager shortages of what Congress means will be painted along the stripped down heaven of a road. this road heads towards the warzone, waking dead. imagine yourself there, full of teeth and fixing to bite. you are ready, now, to read more. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 05:10:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: ZIP CODES Comments: cc: "arc.hive" <_arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au>, cupcake kaleidoscope , Renee , rhizome , wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii 3.) The girls wind as rigorous as they are sour. Soothing myself at intervals with medications illicit, just a trunk with balloon head is dear enough. Fluffy girls. Reading Ashbery in the long no-ceiling hallway of smoking outside Satterfield hall, just a truck with a balance of labial apologies lopped off at slough deaf. I'm dear, waiting for your eyes to join me. A skip over geography with soft fossils of warm swerve, and then I'm home again. In a chatroom, (I've never been here before), luckier children with mouths the shape of catapault butter ignore us repeatedly. Is it true that the ocean moves in the winnows of hands with words? Oh! ===== http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html meditation, net art, poeisis: blog http://lewislacook.blogspot.com/ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 08:34:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Academy as First World? In-Reply-To: <38.2f7014d6.2ad65dbd@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" YES!!! At 12:36 AM -0400 10/10/02, Murat Nemet-Nejat wrote: >I think Gary's analysis is on the nose. Slam readings and the web itself have >created new ways of communicating and reading, which are having a slow, often >checkered, but profound effect on the nature of poetry. > >Murat -- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 08:50:38 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Re: Academy as First World? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Gary I haven't sensed an increase in the power of the academy because I've worked and lived outside of the academy for 30+ years. The increase in creative writing programs might have created a stronger network of writers within the academy and increased their access to university presses. But they don't control publishers row or the small press world. I doubt that university press titles sell better than some small presses. Holman is an excellent promoter, no question about it. And poets who appear in the Nuyorican Anthology get read twice as often as the poets in the postmodern anthology who write in a related vein. (You should see my numbers at Amazon.com. They're impressive, but the sales aren't. Further proof that:) Ultimately, poets inside or outside of the academy need all the help they can get, from wherever they can get it. Vernon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Sullivan" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 5:16 PM Subject: Re: Academy as First World? > Hi Vernon: > > >The academy does have the power to designate certain writers > >as part of the canon. A person writing for poetry slams can't do this. > > I know what you mean, but I'm still not with this idea that poetic value is > created increasingly by the academy. A "slam" person--Bob Holman, for > instance--can co-edit a poetry guide on about.com that I would guess has at > least as many (probably more) active readers as Norton. > > Take a look at these Amazon.com sales rankings for two books, both published > in 1994: > > Aloud: Voices from the Nuyorican Poets' Cafe > Amazon sales rank: 21,579 > > Postmodern American Poetry: A Norton Anthology > Amazon sales rank: 40,459 > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 13:59:48 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Lawrence Upton Subject: BOB COBBING's FUNERAL MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Apologies for duplication quick note to all who may be interested in the details of Bob Cobbing's funeral It is tomorrow Friday 11th October 02 at City of London Cemetery, Aldersbrook Road, Manor Park, E12 5DQ Lots of parking Arrive 2.30 for 3 pm when there will be a simple service with a humanist minister and a few speakers Then we walk or ride (i.e. for those with cars) to the woodland area for the burial - we have until 4.30 at the graveside for, as Jennifer says, "time to remember sadly or to celebrate his life" There won't be a formal reception but arrangement has been made with a local pub where we can go after - details tomorrow L'pool St to Manor Park is timetabled as 12 minutes - Turn left out of the station and then 10minute walk up Forest Drive Jennifer is now saying that "SOME flowers would be lovely; or a donation to Amnesty International or Greenpeace". If you do bring some flowers, try for yellows ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 09:47:35 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: Re: Shelf-Publishing. In-Reply-To: <000d01c26ff4$e6c0e5e0$8f9966d8@CADALY> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I was still living in DC when the LA TIMES made its announcement that it would no longer run reviews of poetry books. I learned of it, as did many in DC, when Jonathan Yardley published a screed in the WASHINGTON POST suggesting that the POST should follow LA's example because, according to Mr. Yardley, nobody knew what was good and what wasn't in poetry any more and, besides, nobody read the stuff any more. What Yardley had left out of his account, of course, was the part about the LA TIMES deciding, in lieu of reviews, to run actual poems each week! All of this has since become moot -- the POST, having the newly-annointed post of poet laureate on the hill, began running poetry columns by present and former laureates -- and the LA TIMES, discovering that Carol Muske Dukes and David St. John were now at USC and winning awards, suddenly and without comment began running poetry reviews again -- they some times make room for Wanda Coleman because she used to write a column for the LA TIMES sunday mag and because she will always generate lots of mail --- the USC connection is partly location and partly due to the fact that some LA TIMESers, like Howard Rosenberg, teach there --- God help us if we expect them to look beyond the rolodex on their desks for something like a writer -- I know that the only times I ever got to review for the WASHINGTON POST were the result of the fact that a guy I went to school with was working there for a time -- haven't heard from them, or any other newspaper, since he left -- It's kind of like the musical chairs game that gets played on tv news shows -- the same experts appear on all the stations spouting the same expertise -- Unfortunately, university hiring committees are often no better at locating talent,,,, too many of them all run after the same small coterie of candidates -- Speaking of which, let me remind everybody that Penn State has an open rank position in African American lit. -- If you know somebody good, send them our way -- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "The university professes the truth, and that is its profession. It declares and promises an unlimited commitment to the truth." Jacques Derrida (Without Alibi 202) Aldon Lynn Nielsen George and Barbara Kelly Professor of American Literature Department of English The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 23:48:28 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: komninos zervos Subject: Re: Academy as First World? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-77A337EF; boundary="=======44976976=======" --=======44976976======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-77A337EF; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit the 'slam' reading and web poetry were preceded by spoken word performance poetry in the 60s and 70s, and something else before that and that spoken word poetry is different from published poetry and has qualities of its own and not judge it by print published poetry standards. after all print published poetry is the currency of academia, the saleable commodity for publishers, editors, book sellers etc. and has little interest in poetry in other media. the thing is poetry is a local activity and an academic study. in the local activity performance is equally as important if not more important than publication. but when academics try to see the 'big picture' to define national poetries, there is only the published archive to study. in the past this has meant the setting up of canons, based on the published archive. lately people have been more interested in seeing poetry not only within literature but the culture in which it exists in as well. poetry has become a global activity and the major publishers have declared it is no longer financially viable to publish poetry, that there isn't a large enough reading audience to publish individual collections of contemporary poets. this has made publication a more localized activity again as in the 1970s and 1980s with the flourishing of small presses and of course the on-line poetry journals, zines, and digital poetries, which highlight localized activity to a global audience. no matter how hard the academy tries to control the agenda of poetry it can't, and i believe, probably stopped trying to in the mid 1980s. the local activity of poetry has a much greater effect on people's lives directly. the discussion about baraka on this list lately is a prime example. what i see we have today is lots of different localized activities of poetry all over the world, not necessarily having style as a common interest, but thematically linked, the ethno-poets, the eco-poets, the gender-poets, the theory-poets, the digital-poets, the code-poets, the left-poets, the cowboy-poets, the bush-poets, as well as physically localized groups around cities and towns, buffalo-poets, albany-poets, the toronto poets, melbourne anarchist poets, sydney poets union poets, subvoicive poets in the uk, etc etc etc. it would be impossible to list all the localized groups of poetic activity. even the university presses are no longer considering the publication of poetry as a priority. this will have a devastating effect on academics who in the past have been able to ensure their tenure with a healthy publication record. well which ever way you take your poetry, you have to enjoy what you are doing i suppose. i enjoy experimenting with digital poetry, talking about poetic culture on this list and organizing and participating in a monthly spoken word poetry event at my local arts co-operative at the gold coast. cheers komninos http://users.bigpond.net.au/mangolegs At 11:34 PM 10/10/02, you wrote: >YES!!! > >At 12:36 AM -0400 10/10/02, Murat Nemet-Nejat wrote: >>I think Gary's analysis is on the nose. Slam readings and the web itself have >>created new ways of communicating and reading, which are having a slow, often >>checkered, but profound effect on the nature of poetry. >> >>Murat > > >-- > > > > >--- >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.394 / Virus Database: 224 - Release Date: 3/10/02 --=======44976976======= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-avg=cert; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-77A337EF Content-Disposition: inline --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.394 / Virus Database: 224 - Release Date: 3/10/02 --=======44976976=======-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:09:54 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Craig Allen Conrad Subject: Frank Sherlock & CAConrad reading @ MOLLY'S Comments: To: Artpostjm@aol.com, luminousfork@hotmail.com, JLowePots@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Frank Sherlock & CAConrad will read from their collaborative project THE CITY REAL & IMAGINED: Philadelphia Poems Thursday, October 24 @ 8pm MOLLY'S CAFE & BOOKSTORE http://www.mollysbooks.com is located at 1010 S. 9th Street (in the heart of the Italian Market) in Philadelphia (215) 923-3367 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:25:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: 2002 Nobel lit In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v546) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hungarian Author Wins Nobel Prize in Literature By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS Filed at 8:23 a.m. ET STOCKHOLM, Sweden (AP) -- Imre Kertesz, a Hungarian who survived Auschwitz as a teenager, won the Nobel Prize in literature Thursday for writing that ``upholds the fragile experience of the individual against the barbaric arbitrariness of history.'' The Swedish Academy singled out his 1975 debut novel, ``Sorstalansag'' (``Fateless''), in which he writes about a young man who is arrested and taken to a concentration camp but conforms and survives. ``For him Auschwitz is not an exceptional occurrence,'' the academy said. ``It is the ultimate truth about human degradation in modern experience.'' The 72-year-old Kertesz, a Jew born in Budapest, was deported to Auschwitz in 1944, then to Buchenwald, where he was liberated in 1945. ``The refusal to compromise in Kertesz's stance can be perceived clearly in his style, which is reminiscent of a thickset hawthorn hedge, dense and thorny for unsuspecting visitors,'' the citation said. ``Fateless'' was the first of a trilogy of novels reflecting on the Holocaust. In ``A kudarc'' (``Fiasco''), published in 1988, an aging author writes a novel about Auschwitz that he expects to be rejected. When the book, to his surprise, is published, he feels only emptiness and a loss privacy. ``Kaddish a meg nem szueletetett'' (``Kaddish For a Child Not Born''), the third work of the trilogy, is a short novel published in 1990. The narrator is a middle-aged Holocaust survivor who has become a writer and literary translator. He agonizes over the effects of his past, lamenting he cannot raise a child in so cruel a world and looking back on a failed marriage and disappointing career. Kertesz's other works include such nonfiction collections as ``The Holocaust as Culture,'' ``Moments of Silence While the Execution Squad Reloads'' and ``The Exiled Language.'' The Nobel award is worth about $1 million. The 18 lifetime members of the 216-year-old Swedish Academy make the annual selection in deep secrecy at one of their weekly meetings and do not even reveal the date of the announcement until two days beforehand. Nominees are not revealed publicly for 50 years, leaving the literary world to only guess about who was in the running. However, many of the same critically acclaimed authors are believed to be on the short list every year. Last year's award went to perennial favorite V.S. Naipaul, a British novelist and essayist born in Trinidad to parents of Indian descent. A week of Nobel Prizes started Monday with the medicine award, followed Tuesday by physics and Wednesday by chemistry and economics. The Nobel Peace Prize winner will be named Friday in Oslo, Norway, the only Nobel not awarded in Sweden. Alfred Nobel, the Swedish industrialist and inventor of dynamite, specified in his will endowing the awards that nationality should not be a consideration, but many believe the Swedish Academy tries to spread the honor over different geographical areas. Nobel otherwise gave only vague guidance about the prize, saying that it should go to those who ``shall have conferred the greatest benefit on mankind'' and ``who shall have produced in the field of literature the most outstanding work in an ideal direction.'' The prizes always are presented Dec. 10, the anniversary of Nobel's death in 1896. ___________________________________________________________ Pierre Joris 6 Madison Place Albany NY 12202 formal poetics = rubber tires on a Gypsy wagon h: 518 426 0433 c: 518 225 7123 Robert Kelly o: 518 442 40 85 email: joris@albany.edu http://www.albany.edu/~joris/ ____________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 11:02:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mdw Subject: inside/outside the academy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Gary (and Al and everyone): Thanks for raising all those concerns--I have them too about my own argument. I absolutely agree that there continues to be a poetry world outside the academic environment--in fact it's one that I've been committed to for many years, running a poetry series that's not university based, working with small presses, etc, and doing all this as someone who works at the university (well, several, and never mind that my job sucks; believe me, I know). And I agree too that one can still point to the occasional--the occasional--poet who rises to broad recognition (a highly troubled notion of "poetic success," but still...) outside the academic context, like Bob Holman, although we could debate how high profile he is, or whether that's because of his poetry or his admirable--I mean this absolutely seriously--entrepreneurial activities on the part of poetry. But I think we're past the time, at least for now, where the world of poetry, as separate from the world of the academy, has much power to create many such figures--and it seems to me, that power continues to be on the wane. I think that's why this problem needs to be discussed now (whether or not I'm right about all the features of it), and not be displaced into questions about whose social position is more legitimate as a source of poetry. I'm sincerely worried about the sustainability of communities of alternative poetry. Perhaps too worried, from your point of view. But I'm not sure. Living in NYC, of course, you're in an environment where alternatives to academic hegemony are still alive and well, to a certain degree--and that's the case in San Francisco also, and many other cities have smaller versions of such communities, as we do here in DC. But I think their level of autonomy is increasingly co-opted. I'm not contesting that the work is out there; I'm only trying to say that I think there have been some fundamental changes in how that work is perceived. And I think NYC has changed too, in terms of the relationship between its high profile poets and academic success. Increasingly, academic success is a pre-requisite for a high profile. Not absolutely, increasingly. Please understand that I'm NOT criticizing academically successful poets; we all, I think, share this problem, although our individual relationships to it are different. It's not simply about academic institutions, of course, it's about the difficulty of maintaining production options that are not thoroughly dominated by connections to U.S. institutional power, generally and in specific instances. For instance, what was the last book of significant poetics not published by an academic press in the United States? There have been a few--let's list them, please--but not many. Sun and Moon is more or less gone as a viable entity in that regard; almost all of Roof's books of poetics are pushing ten years old and more. There are a lot of great small presses, but almost all of them are hard pressed for cash and have poor distribution. Time, resources, opportunities are all increasingly available to poets and poet-critics primarily through their connections to universities. I'm certainly glad that those resources are there--better there than nowhere. But I think--maybe this was even the impetus of my post--that we need to be a little more cautious about the effects this is having on poetry, and about our own relation to it. While I don't agree with Andrew Rathman and others who say that the only good poetry can come from outside the academy, I think I sympathize a little with some of the concerns they're expressing--a feeling of being cornered by academic power. Gary, when you write the following, I agree, only I think I'm not the one (you aren't either) who's doing it: "This is a point of view, one that privileges reception within the academy and ignores the active reception of poetry taking place outside the academy, as though the latter were in some way inconsequential." I think this priveleged reception is not my personal misperception but a social fact for many people: alternative communities are increasingly threatened by institutional co-option or extinction. Some of these groups manage to survive by achieving a place in institutions, but at the cost of having institutional mechanisms determine what they do. If you've been reading Ron Silliman's blog spots, you'll know that he criticized CHAIN magazine some weeks ago for having failed to create new, admired, frequently read poets in the way that magazines of the 60s and 70s did. As often with Ron, I think he puts his finger on the right problem and then diagnoses it the wrong way. Let's leave aside the fact that Chain's editorial policy works against the cult of the individual poet, instead highlighting cultural questions and poetic techniques. But even if they did have a cult of the individual poet there, I doubt that they would be able to create such reputations. CHAIN, simply, doesn't have the power to do that. I think in general the world of poetry, as separate from the academy, is losing that power. The power lies elsewhere. Let's take the case of Charles Bernstein, who as a poet, critic, and as a person I have huge admiration for, and who has done with his academic profile endless numbers of great things, from my point of view. I used to think--and still do, in a different way--isn't it cool that someone like Charles made an inroad into the academy and opened up any number of possibilities there. But now I think there's another element to the situation; if he hadn't entered the academic world, there's no way that he could have done so many of the great things he's done. He'd be an intriguing, brilliant, but much less central figure. Charles is widely read not because he's an important thinker, not because of his relationship to language writing, but because his perceived power in the academic world makes him admired (and, of course, loathed). I'm glad he's managed all those things, but I just think that outside of his academic power, he couldn't have. But still, maybe I'm being overly pessimistic, and the alternatives are alive and well. I'd love to be convinced of it, because right now, they don't seem that way to me. I think the threat of absolute institutional co-option is growing rapidly. All the more reason, I'd say, Gary, to do the kind of work you're doing, and insist that the alternatives still exist. Mark Wallace ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 11:15:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: women in The New American Poetry In-Reply-To: from "Gary Sullivan" at Oct 2, 2002 11:14:34 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, A question for ye: there seems to be a general consensus that the fact that Don Allen's The New American Poetry 1945-1960 includes only a single handful of women poets is a real failing of the book if not of Allen's. My question is, which women poets do you think should have, could have, been included at the time - i.e. who if anyone did Allen miss that would have made sense right then and there. DiPrima, for instance? I know she was fairly new to the scene when the anthology came out (or indeed, was she not quite there yet, or *just* there as with Berkson?). And I also assume that poetic polarizations made someone like Plath unfeasible (so that, while someone might argue that she *should* have been there, no one could really argue that she *could* have under the circumstances, besides which its a little early for her too). Okay, speak. -m. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 11:35:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: more of the academy thread Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Thanks Mark, for the great post. I just got it, unfortunately, after having written what follows--so my asking, below, for you to elaborate on your argument, is moot. And some of my own clarifications below are probably unnecessary at this point. But, I gotta go back to work! I'll respond, Mark, to your new post in a bit--I agree with a lot of what you say, actually, especially that, yes, I'm in New York, where there's an awful lot of activity, so my own thinking is skewed by that, and I do forget. (Thinking back to the years I spent in Minneapolis, I remember being much less optimistic about things.) Also, I want to think about this idea of the "strong" poet--or maybe better put "more visible" poet & its relationship to academic success. But, since most of this really addresses Jeffrey's argument, which I think was a different one from your own, & for whatever else it's worth, here's what I had written: Jeffrey, when you say: "I don't want to be sneering or contemptuous of those consumers' rights to read whatever pastimes they choose ... it's simply not at all the same chemistry or universe as anything like that "poetic value" you're dismissing, wholesale, the reception of poetry by readers of Aloud and (many) similar anthologies. Let's look carefully at how you characterize these "two groups" of people. First, that you break them up into two groups, as though the two audiences were entirely separate. (I think there's overlap, actually.) Having done that, you pitch the Norton readers as having made a significant investment of time and money, having paid for college (as though "spoken-word poets" stop at or in the middle of high-school), and having made an investment in *studying* poetry--unlike, according to the terms of your argument, Edwin Torres, Paul Beatty, Maggie Estep, Wanda Phipps, Miguel Algarin, etc.? You pitch readers of Aloud as being, simply, "consumers" for whom poetry is a (mere?) "pastime." It's not *quite* sneering nor is it *quite* contemptuous. But it's certainly dismissive, not to mention that it makes certain assumptions about the kinds of readers either anthology is likely to have. I have no sense from your post that anyone reading this anthology could possibly participate--even unconsciously--in something so socially & otherwise complex as the creation of poetic value. In your dismissal, you also neglect to bring up a further complication--Aloud (and numerous similar anthologies) is, in fact, taught at the college level, as part of the larger curriculum. Posting the amazon.com figures was not a gesture meant to prove anything one way or the other, nor was it particularly "Whitmanic." I simply want to complicate--to add to--our understanding of the multiple sites involved in the creation of poetic value. Poetic value is being created, maintained, changed, navigated, and so on, constantly, outside of a purely academic context. Some of it at a non-academic institutional level: Coffee House Press, Rain Taxi, American Book Review, the Poetry Project, the Loft, the Ohio Arts Council, NYFA, Roof/Segue, Small Press Traffic, Small Press Distribution, etc. Some of it at a corporate publishing level: the Village Voice, SF Weekly, the Times Book Review, etc. Some of it at the corporate retail level: amazon.com, Barnes & Noble, Borders, etc. Some of it at a more local, independent level: reading series in various cities and towns, independent bookstores like Woodland Pattern (which may actually be a non-profit, therefore an institution, although I'm not sure) and Bridge Street Books, various reading groups, single or co-edited magazine and book publishers everywhere (Potes & Poets, Granary Books, Krupskaya, Faux, Pressed Wafer, Situations, Edge, on & on). Some of it is at the (for want of a better term) the independent Web level: arras.net, jacket, theeastvillage, Readme, duration, Shampoo, Vert, etc. That many of the people involved in the hundreds of various projects listed or alluded to in the paragraph above spent some time in a college or university is inarguable, and like everything else in one's experience, is accountable (if not exactly quantifiable). It may speak of *prior* academic hegemony. But, unless I'm completely wrong, it sounded like what Mark was talking about is not the *prior* hegemony of the academy, but the *increasing hegemony of academic production*--which I think is a very different argument. More specific, and I think crucial to his argument: Mark suggested that writers like Rod Smith, Buck Downs, and Heather Fuller are in increasing danger of being overlooked, forgotten. He says that "increasingly, academic success=poetic value" and that "Non-academic poets are second rate citizens at best, if they're allowed any cache as citizens at all." It's an interesting argument, and it's obviously something to be concerned about. And it may be true, generally, *within the academy*. But, I do have to admit, it does seem to run counter to my own experience *outside* of the academy. Non-academic poets, or poets who have had little or no academic success, are not second rate citizens at all. And some very successful academics who are poets publishing and otherwise creating outside of the academy don't seem to be particularly valued (people, I should say, whose work I personally love). Because I don't generally see an increasing preference for successful academics in the various sites of reception that I frequent (online, in person, or on the page), I wasn't sure how Mark made that leap--which was why I asked if he might unpack what he means by the "increasing hegemony of academic production." [Obviously now I *do* see how Mark made that leap, having just read his latest post--but will have to come back to this a bit later ...] _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 09:08:17 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K. Silem Mohammad" Subject: Re: women in The New American Poetry In-Reply-To: <200210101515.g9AFFiCc012820@dept.english.upenn.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hmm. Mightn't the problem have been not so much Allen and his book per se, but the masculinist bent of the entire open form/beat/otherwise experimental scene of midcentury? That it was just not a woman-friendly creative climate, and thus the book reflects that imbalance? Seems like it wasn't until the late sixties at least that women really felt empowered to participate in greater numbers.... It was definitely too early for Plath. Adrienne Rich was still doing formal quatrains and such.... I was just thinking in the last hour about women poets of the sixties and seventies who did fascinating work but who don't get a lot of attention from our neck of the poetics woods, for various ideological / stylistic / no-real-good reasons ... Diane Wakoski, Alta, etc.... Like Ai, for example. What do people think of Ai? On the one hand, she's kind of submerged in that whole MFA summer-workshop in the foothills world, and her textual approach is very discursively "familiarized" and all, but then she's got that "confessional from the point of view of the Other" thing going on with all that scary ugly shocking violent cut-you-up-muthafucker stuff and so on that always struck me as challenging and original. Especially in her earlier work, maybe. K. on 10/10/02 8:15 AM, Michael Magee at mmagee@DEPT.ENGLISH.UPENN.EDU wrote: > Hi all, > > A question for ye: there seems to be a general consensus that the fact > that Don Allen's The New American Poetry 1945-1960 includes only a single > handful of women poets is a real failing of the book if not of Allen's. > My question is, which women poets do you think should have, could have, > been included at the time - i.e. who if anyone did Allen miss that would > have made sense right then and there. DiPrima, for instance? I know she > was fairly new to the scene when the anthology came out (or indeed, was > she not quite there yet, or *just* there as with Berkson?). And I also > assume that poetic polarizations made someone like Plath unfeasible (so > that, while someone might argue that she *should* have been there, no one > could really argue that she *could* have under the circumstances, besides > which its a little early for her too). Okay, speak. > > -m. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 12:12:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: Re: women in The New American Poetry In-Reply-To: <200210101515.g9AFFiCc012820@dept.english.upenn.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed DiPrima's recent autobiography tells what she heard about why she wasn't included in the Allen anthology -- not pleasant reading . . . . At 11:15 AM 10/10/2002 -0400, Michael Magee wrote: >Hi all, > >A question for ye: there seems to be a general consensus that the fact >that Don Allen's The New American Poetry 1945-1960 includes only a single >handful of women poets is a real failing of the book if not of Allen's. >My question is, which women poets do you think should have, could have, >been included at the time - i.e. who if anyone did Allen miss that would >have made sense right then and there. DiPrima, for instance? I know she >was fairly new to the scene when the anthology came out (or indeed, was >she not quite there yet, or *just* there as with Berkson?). And I also >assume that poetic polarizations made someone like Plath unfeasible (so >that, while someone might argue that she *should* have been there, no one >could really argue that she *could* have under the circumstances, besides >which its a little early for her too). Okay, speak. > >-m. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "The university professes the truth, and that is its profession. It declares and promises an unlimited commitment to the truth." Jacques Derrida (Without Alibi 202) Aldon Lynn Nielsen George and Barbara Kelly Professor of American Literature Department of English The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 09:21:12 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: women in The New American Poetry In-Reply-To: <200210101515.g9AFFiCc012820@dept.english.upenn.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Margaret Randall ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 12:34:32 -0400 Reply-To: kevinkillian@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "kevinkillian@earthlink.net" Subject: Re: women in The New American Poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Mike, Alan Golding's done a much more thorough job than I, but looking through the New American Poetry papers at UCSD Rare Books Collection, it seems there was a very real possibility that Joanne Kyger might have been included in the original 1960 NAP=2E (Perhaps her being overseas at the final count had something to do with her being left out--I can't recall right now=2E) There were as well an additional number of strong female writers on the Sa= n Francisco scene at the time =2E =2E =2E as well as nationally =2E =2E =2E= Jack Spicer's and Fran Herndon's "J" magazine printed some, Don Allen must have= known at least some of this work, but as far as I know none of them missed= the brass ring as bitingly closely as Kyger=2E xxx Kevin K=2E Original Message: ----------------- From: Michael Magee mmagee@DEPT=2EENGLISH=2EUPENN=2EEDU Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 11:15:44 -0400 To: POETICS@LISTSERV=2EBUFFALO=2EEDU Subject: women in The New American Poetry Hi all, A question for ye: there seems to be a general consensus that the fact that Don Allen's The New American Poetry 1945-1960 includes only a single handful of women poets is a real failing of the book if not of Allen's=2E My question is, which women poets do you think should have, could have, been included at the time - i=2Ee=2E who if anyone did Allen miss that wou= ld have made sense right then and there=2E DiPrima, for instance? I know sh= e was fairly new to the scene when the anthology came out (or indeed, was she not quite there yet, or *just* there as with Berkson?)=2E And I also assume that poetic polarizations made someone like Plath unfeasible (so that, while someone might argue that she *should* have been there, no one could really argue that she *could* have under the circumstances, besides which its a little early for her too)=2E Okay, speak=2E -m=2E -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 12:50:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: poetics not published by academic presses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Making Your Own Days, Kenneth Koch, Simon & Schuster 1999 How to Read a Poem, Ed Hirsch, Harvest Books, 2000 (hain't read it, but is it or is it not poetics? is it or is it not significant.) The Sounds of Poetry, Robert Pinsky, FSG 1999 (again, no read-o, but...) In the Palm of Your Hand, Steve Kowit, Tilbury House 1995 (see aboves) ... But what's the point, again? that the powers that be be backing away from anything advising against conformity to a received style with stock characters in coded situations reiterating formulaic speeches with prefab insights? Sounds like a prefab text for a formulaic post to a choir-preach e-mail audience from any of many defenders of the faith of advising against conformity. Poetics... I have a strong feeling none of the books I've listed satisfy the unarticulated definition of *poetics.* What's poetics? Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 12:24:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Pusateri Subject: Re: women in the New American Poetry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Perhaps Muriel Rukeyser? _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 16:16:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: hEGEMONY, HEGEMon MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT hEGEMONY HEGemony where is the sting? one of the strings that seems to tie many of these periodic elist furies here together is the question of poetic hegemony, I think. and I think many of them miss the essential problem or at least write around it or them. in the US and on the US-dominated internet, money is the engine. too often the poetry world seems to follow world seems to mirror this to the detriment of it's institutions (anti as well as academic). when i look for a book or mag or course on poetry or poetics I am looking for how to read or write or to enjoy the sport or game. i think the world series as it's shown on TV these days is an apt analogy? I don't watch for the stats they flash or the brands they they toss out or the garrulous Garrodgiolawannabes but the action I recall of swinging and striking or striking out or in more arm-chair fashion recalling Stan gallumping forth to swat or not. tom bell &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&cetera: Poetry at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/publicat.html Gallery - Metaphor/Metonym for Health at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/metaphor/metapho.htm Health articles at http://psychology.healingwell.com/ Reviews at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/reviews.htm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 16:28:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: poetics not published by academic presses MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I haven't completely absorbed this http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/instruct/cinichol/NotesToward/NotesTowardMaterialT ext.htm yet but it looks like it might join Loss' book as 'process' poetics as opposed to the typivsl enumeration tom bell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jordan Davis" To: Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 11:50 AM Subject: poetics not published by academic presses > Making Your Own Days, Kenneth Koch, Simon & Schuster 1999 > > How to Read a Poem, Ed Hirsch, Harvest Books, 2000 (hain't read it, but is > it or is it not poetics? is it or is it not significant.) > > The Sounds of Poetry, Robert Pinsky, FSG 1999 (again, no read-o, but...) > > In the Palm of Your Hand, Steve Kowit, Tilbury House 1995 (see aboves) > > ... > > But what's the point, again? that the powers that be be backing away from > anything advising against conformity to a received style with stock > characters in coded situations reiterating formulaic speeches with prefab > insights? Sounds like a prefab text for a formulaic post to a choir-preach > e-mail audience from any of many defenders of the faith of advising > against conformity. > > Poetics... I have a strong feeling none of the books I've listed satisfy > the unarticulated definition of *poetics.* What's poetics? > > Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 12:16:50 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: inside/outside the academy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Mark, Unlike Gary, I would have to say that your post leaves me more confused. I'm not confused about your argument or your thinking, which you've made very clear; what confuses me is where you want to go with that argument. Are you only posting because, as you suggest at the end, you'd love to be convinced that your argument is wrong, that the situation isn't as bad as all that? Or if not, why make the argument, if not to suggest that something can be done about it? Yet your argument stops short of what, I feel, would be its implicit conclusion: a call to action. One can argue-- though I'm not saying that *you* would, Mark-- that nothing any of us can do would make a difference, but that argument itself flies in the face of the activist poetic tradition to which we subscribe. I realize that you & many others on this list have done many things to make the inside/outside distinction less of a marker of cultural "value," so I don't want this to sound in any way like a criticism-- but Mark, you're a teacher, critic & editor, and you're talking to a list consisting of a lot of other teachers, critics, editors, publishers, MOST of whom (I'd wager) sympathize with your desire to break down that distinction, regardless of which side they'd take on the endlessly recycled academic/anti-academic debate on this list. Shit, if (for example) HALF the people on this list reviewed one book in the next year by a poet not working in academia; if HALF the people here who teach included one (more) poet outside of academia in their course reading materials; if just ONE THIRD of the editors & publishers on this list published one (more) book by a poet outside academia-- don't you think that would make a difference? No it wouldn't be a cure-all-- but wouldn't it make a difference? Then again, in some ways your post suggests that things may not really be as bad as all that. While I agree that Bernstein probably wouldn't be as visible if he hadn't made it into academia, he would be a whole lot less visible, whether in or out of academia, if he weren't such an articulate spokesperson for alternative poetries. On the other hand, you mention Ron Silliman, who has worked outside academia his whole life, & (except for never having appeared in any bad Sean Connery movies) is doing pretty well. And Chain, which you also mention, is an interesting example of the inside/outside lines being blurred: though published without institutional support, its editors are both pretty successful younger academics. So, I guess one question we could ask is where & how do we draw these lines. I'm not always sure myself. Best, Mark DuCharme >From: mdw >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: inside/outside the academy >Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 11:02:18 -0400 > >Hi Gary (and Al and everyone): > >Thanks for raising all those concerns--I have them too about my own >argument. >I absolutely agree that there continues to be a poetry world outside the >academic environment--in fact it's one that I've been committed to for many >years, running a poetry series that's not university based, working with >small >presses, etc, and doing all this as someone who works at the university >(well, >several, and never mind that my job sucks; believe me, I know). And I agree >too that one can still point to the occasional--the occasional--poet who >rises >to broad recognition (a highly troubled notion of "poetic success," but >still...) outside the academic context, like Bob Holman, although we could >debate how high profile he is, or whether that's because of his poetry or >his >admirable--I mean this absolutely seriously--entrepreneurial activities on >the >part of poetry. But I think we're past the time, at least for now, where >the >world of poetry, as separate from the world of the academy, has much power >to >create many such figures--and it seems to me, that power continues to be on >the wane. I think that's why this problem needs to be discussed now >(whether >or not I'm right about all the features of it), and not be displaced into >questions about whose social position is more legitimate as a source of >poetry. I'm sincerely worried about the sustainability of communities of >alternative poetry. Perhaps too worried, from your point of view. But I'm >not >sure. > >Living in NYC, of course, you're in an environment where alternatives to >academic hegemony are still alive and well, to a certain degree--and that's >the case in San Francisco also, and many other cities have smaller versions >of >such communities, as we do here in DC. But I think their level of autonomy >is >increasingly co-opted. I'm not contesting that the work is out there; I'm >only >trying to say that I think there have been some fundamental changes in how >that work is perceived. And I think NYC has changed too, in terms of the >relationship between its high profile poets and academic success. >Increasingly, academic success is a pre-requisite for a high profile. Not >absolutely, increasingly. Please understand that I'm NOT criticizing >academically successful poets; we all, I think, share this problem, >although >our individual relationships to it are different. > >It's not simply about academic institutions, of course, it's about the >difficulty of maintaining production options that are not thoroughly >dominated >by connections to U.S. institutional power, generally and in specific >instances. For instance, what was the last book of significant poetics not >published by an academic press in the United States? There have been a >few--let's list them, please--but not many. Sun and Moon is more or less >gone >as a viable entity in that regard; almost all of Roof's books of poetics >are >pushing ten years old and more. There are a lot of great small presses, but >almost all of them are hard pressed for cash and have poor distribution. >Time, >resources, opportunities are all increasingly available to poets and >poet-critics primarily through their connections to universities. I'm >certainly glad that those resources are there--better there than nowhere. >But >I think--maybe this was even the impetus of my post--that we need to be a >little more cautious about the effects this is having on poetry, and about >our >own relation to it. > >While I don't agree with Andrew Rathman and others who say that the only >good >poetry can come from outside the academy, I think I sympathize a little >with >some of the concerns they're expressing--a feeling of being cornered by >academic power. Gary, when you write the following, I agree, only I think >I'm >not the one (you aren't either) who's doing it: "This is a point of view, >one >that privileges reception within the academy and ignores the active >reception >of poetry taking place outside the academy, as though the latter were in >some >way inconsequential." I think this priveleged reception is not my personal >misperception but a social fact for many people: alternative communities >are >increasingly threatened by institutional co-option or extinction. Some of >these groups manage to survive by achieving a place in institutions, but at >the cost of having institutional mechanisms determine what they do. > >If you've been reading Ron Silliman's blog spots, you'll know that he >criticized CHAIN magazine some weeks ago for having failed to create new, >admired, frequently read poets in the way that magazines of the 60s and 70s >did. As often with Ron, I think he puts his finger on the right problem and >then diagnoses it the wrong way. Let's leave aside the fact that Chain's >editorial policy works against the cult of the individual poet, instead >highlighting cultural questions and poetic techniques. But even if they did >have a cult of the individual poet there, I doubt that they would be able >to >create such reputations. CHAIN, simply, doesn't have the power to do that. >I >think in general the world of poetry, as separate from the academy, is >losing >that power. The power lies elsewhere. > >Let's take the case of Charles Bernstein, who as a poet, critic, and as a >person I have huge admiration for, and who has done with his academic >profile >endless numbers of great things, from my point of view. I used to >think--and >still do, in a different way--isn't it cool that someone like Charles made >an >inroad into the academy and opened up any number of possibilities there. >But >now I think there's another element to the situation; if he hadn't entered >the >academic world, there's no way that he could have done so many of the great >things he's done. He'd be an intriguing, brilliant, but much less central >figure. Charles is widely read not because he's an important thinker, not >because of his relationship to language writing, but because his perceived >power in the academic world makes him admired (and, of course, loathed). >I'm >glad he's managed all those things, but I just think that outside of his >academic power, he couldn't have. > >But still, maybe I'm being overly pessimistic, and the alternatives are >alive >and well. I'd love to be convinced of it, because right now, they don't >seem >that way to me. I think the threat of absolute institutional co-option is >growing rapidly. All the more reason, I'd say, Gary, to do the kind of work >you're doing, and insist that the alternatives still exist. > >Mark Wallace <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'A sentence thinks loudly.' -—Gertrude Stein http://www.pavementsaw.org/cosmopolitan.htm http://www.angelfire.com/poetry/subpress/soc.htm _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 11:31:30 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew Rathmann Subject: Re: more of the academy thread, non-U.S. contexts In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Could anyone comment on literary situations outside the U.S. and Canada? In Europe, so I'm told, academic careers are rare, government funding is strong, and there is a tradition of writers/intellectuals contributing to newspapers, the feuilleton, etc. What about Japan or Taiwan? What about India? I thought there were at least a few list members residing in Asia... Personally, I am interested in the places that seem the most _unlike_ the U.S. The Poetics List may be necessarily U.S.-centric, but maybe someone could provide a little information about other nations. This would, I think, enrich the sociology we are presently doing. Andy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 12:03:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Jullich Subject: Re: more of the academy thread MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii gpsullivan@HOTMAIL.COM wrote: > Posting the amazon.com figures was not a gesture meant to prove anything one way or the other, nor was it particularly "Whitmanic." I simply want to complicate--to add to--our understanding of the multiple sites involved in the creation of poetic value. ------------------------------------------------------- [Amazon sales ranking, author, title] 1,002 Billy Collins, Nine Horses 2,431 Silliman, N/O (Adobe download), $5.00 2,572 Billy Collins, Sailing Alone 2,583 Creeley/Lehman, Best American Poetry '02 (23) 5,991 Maya Angelou, Collected Poems 6,670 Ashbery, Chinese Whispers, $15.40 19,867 T.S. Eliot, Collected Poems 20,165 Sylvia Plath, The Unabridged Journals 21,579 Aloud 33,275 Sylvia Plath, Ariel 40,459 Post-Modern Poetry: Norton Anthology 50,638 Ted Hughes, Birthday Letters 52,500 Bok, Eunoia 55,132 Frank O'Hara, The Collected Poems, $17.47 63,647 Harryette Mullen, Sleeping with the Dictionary 70,074 Ashbery, Self-Portrait in a Convex Mirror, $10.47 75,271 Hejinian, My Life, $8.76 117,072 Ashbery, Girls on the Run, $14.00 142,082 Baraka, Transbluency 166,817 Diane Di Prima, Loba 198,522 David Lehman, The Last Avant Garde, $11.87 208,513 Bernstein/Drucker, Figuring The Word: Essays, $17.47 217,613 Ashbery, The Mooring of Starting Out, $18.00 219,051 Charles Olson, The Maximus Poems 258,049 Howe, Pierce-Arrow, $10.47 264,025 Ted Berrigan, The Sonnets, $11.20 293,027 Brenda Hillman, Cascadia 308,352 Hejinian, Happily, $10.00 322,153 Ashbery, Can You Hear, Bird? $16.00 322,400 Creeley, Selected Poems 323,561 Hejinian, Writing Is an Aid to Memory, $9.95 380,068 Silliman, In The American Tree ('87), $19.95 402,243 Nathaniel Mackey, Whatsaid Serif 426,613 Rebecca Wolff, Manderley 468,771 Rita Dove, Darker Face of the Earth 498,880 Osman, The Character, $10.50 514,179 Susan Schultz, The Tribe of John, $29.95 530,201 Spahr, Fuck You - I Love You, $10.36 569,715 Watten, Frame 579,964 Coolidge, The Crystal Text 689,659 Sullivan/Gordon, Swoon 743,315 Catherine Wagner, Miss America 726,283 Howe, Bed Hangings, $10.47 726,432 Watten, Bad History 821,381 Brad Gooch, City Poet: The Life ... of Frank O'Hara 825,229 Ashbery, Your Name Here, $10.40 876,781 Coolidge, The Rova Improvisations 984,782 Howe, Europe of Trusts, $11.87 1,007,094 Piombino, Theoretical Objects 1,008,990 Kelly, Poetry & The Sense of Panic. Critical Essays on Bishop & Ashbery 1,051,454 Silliman, Toner, $9.50 1,062,904 Killian, Argento Series 1,376,255 Joshua Clover, Madonna Anno Domini 1,334,310 Koch, Sun Out (Selected) 1,413,267 Piombino, The Boundary of Blur 1,436,653 Stacy Doris, Paramour 1,610,791 Sullivan/Gordon, Are Not Our Lowing Heiffers 1,614,814 Scalapino, Orchid Jetsam 1,849,826 Brian Kim Stefans, Angry Penguins 2,363,382 Lytle Shaw, Cable Factory "The calculation is based on Amazon.com sales and is updated regularly. The top 10,000 best sellers are updated each hour to reflect sales in the preceding 24 hours. The next 100,000 are updated daily. The rest of the list is updated monthly, based on several different factors." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 15:07:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: women in The New American Poetry - 3 more Comments: To: kevinkillian@earthlink.net In-Reply-To: <410-2200210410163432573@M2W068.mail2web.com> from "kevinkillian@earthlink.net" at Oct 10, 2002 12:34:32 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, thanks for the thoughts on this little thread I started. Here are three more names Bill Berkson gave me a while back as part of a list of poets associated with Greenwich Village in the 50s: Daisy Aldan - her poems in FOLDER (which she edited) are pretty interesting, she certainly wouldn't have seemed out of place in Allen's NAP. Ruth Yorck Barbara Moraff (had book with Totem/Corinth)(a.k.a. Barbara Ellen) Berkson or some other informed person would have to speak to the work of these last two as I don't know it. Come to think of it, Bunny Lang also has poems in FOLDER. -m. According to kevinkillian@earthlink.net: > > Hi Mike, > > Alan Golding's done a much more thorough job than I, but looking through > the New American Poetry papers at UCSD Rare Books Collection, it seems > there was a very real possibility that Joanne Kyger might have been > included in the original 1960 NAP. (Perhaps her being overseas at the > final count had something to do with her being left out--I can't recall > right now.) > > There were as well an additional number of strong female writers on the San > Francisco scene at the time . . . as well as nationally . . . Jack > Spicer's and Fran Herndon's "J" magazine printed some, Don Allen must have > known at least some of this work, but as far as I know none of them missed > the brass ring as bitingly closely as Kyger. > > xxx Kevin K. > > Original Message: > ----------------- > From: Michael Magee mmagee@DEPT.ENGLISH.UPENN.EDU > Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 11:15:44 -0400 > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: women in The New American Poetry > > > Hi all, > > A question for ye: there seems to be a general consensus that the fact > that Don Allen's The New American Poetry 1945-1960 includes only a single > handful of women poets is a real failing of the book if not of Allen's. > My question is, which women poets do you think should have, could have, > been included at the time - i.e. who if anyone did Allen miss that would > have made sense right then and there. DiPrima, for instance? I know she > was fairly new to the scene when the anthology came out (or indeed, was > she not quite there yet, or *just* there as with Berkson?). And I also > assume that poetic polarizations made someone like Plath unfeasible (so > that, while someone might argue that she *should* have been there, no one > could really argue that she *could* have under the circumstances, besides > which its a little early for her too). Okay, speak. > > -m. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > mail2web - Check your email from the web at > http://mail2web.com/ . > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 20:11:49 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lakey Teasdale Subject: and Virginia, I meet. and He Comments: To: "WRYTING-L : Writing and Theory across Disciplines" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit and Virginia, I meet. and He and eyes, and I when the rigours of the wind settling a geography of dispute. Never, though, here before and possibly.Yes? Hereafter the meeting meets following. Another following one is one and. All of the children luckier still. They make poetry slip out of balloons & marbles. The glass the glass. Green eyes the cat's eye. The hands. Only yours soothe hands the o- cean's moved ceil- ings, Sealing. The agreement. Co-ordinates the subalternate chant & chants. The sour, the wine- gum. Spun-sugar mouths The moths. that never ignore nor eyes. the Listen: she stands in a garden of jasmine. the crickets the crickets the Lights light threads. the crickets this is in Virginia. Virginia. the sour. No sharp! the particulars Atmosphere of divine. Strides! aloft on pride. Aloft. the winds lost on Saturday of gales. the wind cold, clear the rare flash the rare rain of not eyes. but: skies that yellow high the luminous. the gigantic. and far. far listen: The garden of jasmine & crickets. The delight. The light. this is in Virginia. Virginia. this is in Virginia. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 13:20:05 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: inside/outside the academy In-Reply-To: <3DA68D5A@webmail3> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" mark, gary, catherine, andrew, aldon, jeffrey, maria, others, one of the problems right off has to do with the way "poetry" is being segmented in contradistinction e.g. to prose... we *could* say, for all intents and purposes, that exp. prose is treated much the same as poetry, and therefore enjoys the same problematic relationship with academe... i mean, i *could* say that, as an academic, i find mself fighting against certain academic realities/strictures/discourses in order to continue to produce work that is not easily classifiable (i don't wish to suggest that i get up in the morning with a 'defy classification' agenda as a poet---i'm talking about the way i hope my work might be rec'd ex post facto, whatever i bring to it initially)... but the fact is, i don't just write poetry---and lots of poets i know don't just write poetry... they write criticism, reviews, scholarship---and perhaps screenplays and jello ad copy... one of the problems here is that some of these pursuits seem to pull one farther out of academic considerations, yet into equally overdetermined marketplaces (screenwriting and its associated business, even at this early stage in my aspiring such career, seems mighty hard to square with the academic and academic publishing bureaucracy)... so there's this question, then, of writing practices, which don't reduce easily either to genre or to "author" (as authors are, as i know them, multifaceted)... but there's a deeper, more embracing problem raised by this question of what's happening to poetry outside of academe (to presume a clearcut outside, as again, i'm more for looking at the way ALL of education, k-12, speaks to such outsides)... it has to do with the level of analysis we wish to embark upon, and ultimately becomes a matter (broadly) of intellectual history... as in, the history of intellectuals (!)... i can't do justice to these concerns here... but one article i read recently comes immediately to mind... i found a copy of ~the chronicle [of higher ed] review~ (4 oct.) lying in front of our faculty mailboxes the other day (note how overdetermined *this* little scenario is!), and snatched it up to read john lukacs's "the obsolescence of the american intellectual"... while lukacs says some things with which i stridently disagree (and which border to me on fogeyisms of one sort or the other), his brief survey of intellectual presence in the u.s. public sphere of the 20th century is worth reading, and leads him to discuss the disappearance, not of the public, but of what he calls "the private intellectual"---"a person with a mind of his or her own"... and which leads him to posit "The Reader" as perhaps the private intellectual's cultural replacement... but in any case i can't see as how we can discuss problems of poetry outside academe without a more thorough (sociological? historical? economic?) consideration of cultural-intellectual deformations of the past half century... and in any case i tend to like to think in terms of what we do to eat (e.g.) while we produce our poetry, and where we do it (teaching incl.)---as opposed to the somewhat more precious suggestion (not that anyone hereabouts has suggested so, exactly) that such considerations are somehow beneath a more rigorous examination of formal possibilities as these intersect with the reception sphere... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 15:27:51 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harriet Zinnes Subject: Re: women in The New American Poetry - 3 more MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ah, yes, Daisy Aldan was a dedicated publisher of poetry. My first two books of poems were published by Daisy in Folder Editions, namely, AN EYE FOR AN I and I WANTED TO SEE SOMETHING FLYING. And now, may I add, still with small presses, I have just published with Marsh Hawk Press, a book of poems called DRAWING ON THE WALL. I will be reading from it on November 6 (6 to 8 pm) at the Cornelia STreet Cafe (29 Cornelia STreet, NYC) and on November 10 (5 to 7 pm)at the Tribes Gallery (285 East 3rd Street, NYC) Harriet Zinnes ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 12:37:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: women in The New American Poetry In-Reply-To: <200210101515.g9AFFiCc012820@dept.english.upenn.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > And I also >assume that poetic polarizations made someone like Plath unfeasible (so >that, while someone might argue that she *should* have been there, no one >could really argue that she *could* have under the circumstances, besides >which its a little early for her too). Okay, speak. Good subject. But Plath? She was the darling of the academic poets and the young women who had conventional dreams. we knew that she represented the other side, where Robert Lowell and Ted Hughs had set up camp. -- George Bowering Has a shock of brown hair. Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 12:41:06 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: women in The New American Poetry In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >Hmm. Mightn't the problem have been not so much Allen and his book per se, >but the masculinist bent of the entire open form/beat/otherwise experimental >scene of midcentury? That it was just not a woman-friendly creative >climate, and thus the book reflects that imbalance? You suggesting that women writers tended toward closed forms? How come? >I was just thinking in the last hour about women poets of the sixties and >seventies who did fascinating work but who don't get a lot of attention from >our neck of the poetics woods, for various ideological / stylistic / >no-real-good reasons ... Diane Wakoski, She did get a hell of a lot of attention, but in 1959 she wasnt there yet. >Like Ai, for example. What do people think of Ai? I havent heard of her. -- George Bowering Has a shock of brown hair. Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 15:21:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: women in The New American Poetry In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" i guess it was too early for judy grahn ... i like ai. her work is shocking, those dramatic monologues etc. plus someone told me she has a lot of cats. At 9:08 AM -0700 10/10/02, K. Silem Mohammad wrote: >Hmm. Mightn't the problem have been not so much Allen and his book per se, >but the masculinist bent of the entire open form/beat/otherwise experimental >scene of midcentury? That it was just not a woman-friendly creative >climate, and thus the book reflects that imbalance? Seems like it wasn't >until the late sixties at least that women really felt empowered to >participate in greater numbers.... > >It was definitely too early for Plath. Adrienne Rich was still doing formal >quatrains and such.... > >I was just thinking in the last hour about women poets of the sixties and >seventies who did fascinating work but who don't get a lot of attention from >our neck of the poetics woods, for various ideological / stylistic / >no-real-good reasons ... Diane Wakoski, Alta, etc.... > >Like Ai, for example. What do people think of Ai? On the one hand, she's >kind of submerged in that whole MFA summer-workshop in the foothills world, >and her textual approach is very discursively "familiarized" and all, but >then she's got that "confessional from the point of view of the Other" thing >going on with all that scary ugly shocking violent cut-you-up-muthafucker >stuff and so on that always struck me as challenging and original. >Especially in her earlier work, maybe. > >K. > > >on 10/10/02 8:15 AM, Michael Magee at mmagee@DEPT.ENGLISH.UPENN.EDU wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> A question for ye: there seems to be a general consensus that the fact >> that Don Allen's The New American Poetry 1945-1960 includes only a single >> handful of women poets is a real failing of the book if not of Allen's. >> My question is, which women poets do you think should have, could have, >> been included at the time - i.e. who if anyone did Allen miss that would >> have made sense right then and there. DiPrima, for instance? I know she >> was fairly new to the scene when the anthology came out (or indeed, was >> she not quite there yet, or *just* there as with Berkson?). And I also >> assume that poetic polarizations made someone like Plath unfeasible (so >> that, while someone might argue that she *should* have been there, no one >> could really argue that she *could* have under the circumstances, besides > > which its a little early for her too). Okay, speak. > > > > -m. -- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 15:49:23 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: poem Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Our Nation's Over/Under Let's find New directions in which to point guns and Blow glass wrists that are for slashing and Stitching together At best we remain jinxed on our Insides, a truly frightened flock Marketplaces replaced by ovals of Spent gunpowder or skies turn it up! the faint churning in Our nerves' bones if you are further awash in doubt and have Yet to suffer You too can be a Prisoner crossed with A sinner, welcome aboard highways where there should be Dead fish and Factories Sugar and penicillin hits push Us to Brinks That soul is lying and sweating like a Liar along astral planes and boardwalks It's in out power to either asphyxiate or be Used like spoons All sharp charms have been removed left only with earrings this ground's frozen, maybe fall forward, Brace for siege _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 12:56:14 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: poetics not published by academic presses In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT These are self-help books, though some do verge on "applied" reference material and crit lite. I have read in the palm of your hand and mary oliver's book, and just about every silly how to write or how to write poetry book there is -- fussel, hollander, ciardi, poemcrazy, writing down the bones, bird by bird, the writing life, the artists way -- my students seem to insist on it. I try to treat it like having to scan yucky not-about-business books like how to negotiate anything or dale carnegie or toastmasters, but, in fact, it just makes me mean. How many gifts of Rumi-related items have you received from students, family members, well-meaning friends? What did you write in the thank you notes? Rgds, Catherine Daly using up post #2 cadaly@pacbell.net From IN THE PALM OF YOUR HAND: THE POET'S PORTABLE WORKSHOP, by Steve Kowit: Chapter 3 Little Poems in Prose "Three sentences about a moment that changed one's life! Is this a vignette, a tale, a short-story, a sketch, an anecdote? We could call it any of those -- or we could call it a little poem in *prose*." ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 16:02:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: poem Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Discothèque Virgins *in extremis* and in disgrace headed for the top of the World, Wherever that is We've finally hit All the capitols and we're Voting Republican as we cruise their bars disguised, misguided Virgins, in search of X or anythin X-like We just can't wait to fuck our young to fuck them Up What in the Hell? is an action channel anyway by secret toxic clean-ups as we blow town a poet deciding whether to finish this Line or to instead convulse Soon even the president will dress like a hooker, which Would work wonders kids jerking other kids off to overrated Synth they'll disavow and if Lucky enough to be destroyed: candles cum Closure at dusk pass that wispy lit rebellion, twisted into fattie Get on with it, steady into half-numb pornographies Before wardens realize _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 15:04:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: Re: poetics not published by academic presses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > every silly how to write or how to write poetry book there is -- > fussel, hollander, ciardi, poemcrazy, writing down the bones, bird by > bird, the writing life, the artists way -- my students seem to insist on > it. I try to treat it like having to scan yucky not-about-business > books like how to negotiate anything or dale carnegie or toastmasters, > but, in fact, it just makes me mean. Catherine, I hope you're not including Kenneth Koch's _Making Your Own Days_ in this mini-rant. I used it in a class this spring, and it was in no wise a "how-to" book; it's part anthology, part Kochian wisdom, all very great. I agree that most "You too can write poems" books make "real" poets grumpy, but Koch's is not among those. Take a look at it. Use it in your workshop. Aaron p.s. Why am I still receiving emails from this list? I tried to unsubscribe yesterday; does anyone know how to unsubscribe? Please backchannel, and thanks, you're a dear. p.p.s. If anyone who was too shy to call me on my telephone wants to hear my voice (it's very sexy), you can hear me read a poem on NPR's "Here and Now" tomorrow at noon EST. Well, the show begins at noon, but the poetry segment (feature "roving poet" Jim Behrle) is near the end of the show. (Correct me if I'm wrong, Jim.) If your NPR doesn't get this show, you can do like i do and tune in at http://www.wbur.org [Now get me offa here, gods of unsubscription!] ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 13:10:00 -0700 Reply-To: yan@pobox.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: matvei yankelevich Subject: invite to OBERIU poetry & plays - Sunday Comments: To: Matvei Comments: cc: jasonz@timeoutny.com, events@offoffoff.com, drew_pisarra@citysearch.com, info@culturalhrc.ca, Egroup ArtistJournals , Artnewyork , English Dept City College , editorial CityTripping , CLMP , Schwartz CLMP Newswire , English Dept CUNY , French Dept CUNY , Langlois Foundation , "Robert Marshall (Art In General)" , Misha Gutkin , "Experiment, Institute of Modern Russian Culture" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sunday, October 13th ~ 5 pm ~ Bowery Poetry Club Eugene Ostashevsky & Matvei Yankelevich present translations and performances of OBERIU: Union for Real Art, poets & playwrights of the latter Russian avant-garde $5 at the door. Special books/magazines will be sold. Bowery, below Bleecker, across the road from CBGBs. Readings and performances of the work of the OBERIU (a group of underground poets active in Leningrad from 1926 to 1941), with hosts Matvei Yankelevich, Eugene Ostashevsky, and friends. The evening will include readings of OBERIU poetry and prose in Russian and English translation by the translators, as well as the following PLAYS: FROTHER, a poem / play by Alexander Vvedensky. Dir'd by Nicola Cipani. Trans: Thomas Epstein, Eugene Ostashevsky and Genya Turovsky. WE ARE NOT CAKES (Theater # 8). A Mathematical Analysis of Daniil Kharms' ELIZABETH BAM, collided in slight error with SDYGR APPR and bisected by a SCIMITAR of meaning in light of the OBERIU MANIFESTO. Dir.: Matvei Yankelevich & an excerpt from A THOUGHT ABOUT RAYA based on the texts of Daniil Kharms. Hannah Bos/Paul Thureen. PLUS The new complete Gray Notebook, by Alexander Vvedensky, in a special limited edition of 35 books from Ugly Duckling Presse, will be on sale! ...along with issues of New American Writing 20 and Fence. - - - - -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Performers include: Simone White, Oleg Dubson, Lauren Urquhart, Terry Gibson, Nathaniel Farrell, Dima Dubson, Douglas Mennella, Hannah Bos, Paul Thureen, and 14 trained schnauzers. ~~~ Matvei Yankelevich and Eugene Ostashevsky have published translations of OBERIU writing in Fence, Open City, Common Knowledge, Balaklava, New American Writing, Dirigible, and key satch(el). http://bowerypoetry.com/ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 15:10:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: Re: poetics not published by academic presses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Correction: The show will air next THURSDAY, October 17th at noon. As I said, the poetry part will be late in the hour. Aaron > p.p.s. If anyone who was too shy to call me on my telephone wants to hear > my voice (it's very sexy), you can hear me read a poem on NPR's "Here and > Now" tomorrow at noon EST. Well, the show begins at noon, but the poetry > segment (feature "roving poet" Jim Behrle) is near the end of the show. > (Correct me if I'm wrong, Jim.) If your NPR doesn't get this show, you can > do like i do and tune in at http://www.wbur.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 15:42:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: The Poetry Project Subject: Poetry Project Announcements Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Forwarded by The Poetry Project on behalf of the Ontological-Hysteric Theatre. *** RICHARD FOREMAN'S ONTOLOGICAL-HYSTERIC THEATRE For thirty-five years, Richard Foreman has been a pioneer in the world of avant-garde theatre. He is the winner of nine Obie awards and the recipient of the Pen/Laura Master American Playwright Award. Every year Richard Foreman produces a new, groundbreaking work in the Ontological-Hysteric Theatre located in St. Mark's Church. We are always looking for new audiences, so we would love to have you on our e-mail list so that we may inform you about Richard's productions and special events happening in the Ontological. Unfortunately our computer crashed this summer and we lost our old email list, so even if you think we know your address already, please respond to this and let us know that you are interested in the theatre. Please write to ontological@mindspring.com if you would like to join our list or with any questions. Thank you, Joshua Briggs Production Manager Ontological-Hysteric Theatre *** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 16:34:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tisa Bryant Subject: Re: women in The New American Poetry In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I like Ai very much, yes, Kasey me too, especially her earlier work. I saw her read in Boston, at T.T. the Bear's, no less, about 12 years ago or more, somewhere right before her book FATE. I must say that there is nothing like hearing her read. She comes off very monotone, almost in newscaster diction, but quietly, and you must listen, for within those eerily on-point monologues is the most incredible internal rhyme scheme, just as understated and stealthy as can be. I like the idea of her with lots of cats. A kind of Leonor Fini of poetry. What intrigued me, though, was her dedicating FATE to Willem Defoe. I think they had some connection back in the Wooster Group days, or else I'm spinning a shiny one here. Lorine Niedecker, Helen Adam, Allison Knowles? Hmmm... > From: Maria Damon > Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group > Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 15:21:09 -0500 > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: women in The New American Poetry > > i guess it was too early for judy grahn ... i like ai. her work is > shocking, those dramatic monologues etc. plus someone told me she > has a lot of cats. > > At 9:08 AM -0700 10/10/02, K. Silem Mohammad wrote: >> Hmm. Mightn't the problem have been not so much Allen and his book per se, >> but the masculinist bent of the entire open form/beat/otherwise experimental >> scene of midcentury? That it was just not a woman-friendly creative >> climate, and thus the book reflects that imbalance? Seems like it wasn't >> until the late sixties at least that women really felt empowered to >> participate in greater numbers.... >> >> It was definitely too early for Plath. Adrienne Rich was still doing formal >> quatrains and such.... >> >> I was just thinking in the last hour about women poets of the sixties and >> seventies who did fascinating work but who don't get a lot of attention from >> our neck of the poetics woods, for various ideological / stylistic / >> no-real-good reasons ... Diane Wakoski, Alta, etc.... >> >> Like Ai, for example. What do people think of Ai? On the one hand, she's >> kind of submerged in that whole MFA summer-workshop in the foothills world, >> and her textual approach is very discursively "familiarized" and all, but >> then she's got that "confessional from the point of view of the Other" thing >> going on with all that scary ugly shocking violent cut-you-up-muthafucker >> stuff and so on that always struck me as challenging and original. >> Especially in her earlier work, maybe. >> >> K. >> >> >> on 10/10/02 8:15 AM, Michael Magee at mmagee@DEPT.ENGLISH.UPENN.EDU wrote: >> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> A question for ye: there seems to be a general consensus that the fact >>> that Don Allen's The New American Poetry 1945-1960 includes only a single >>> handful of women poets is a real failing of the book if not of Allen's. >>> My question is, which women poets do you think should have, could have, >>> been included at the time - i.e. who if anyone did Allen miss that would >>> have made sense right then and there. DiPrima, for instance? I know she >>> was fairly new to the scene when the anthology came out (or indeed, was >>> she not quite there yet, or *just* there as with Berkson?). And I also >>> assume that poetic polarizations made someone like Plath unfeasible (so >>> that, while someone might argue that she *should* have been there, no one >>> could really argue that she *could* have under the circumstances, besides >>> which its a little early for her too). Okay, speak. >>> >>> -m. > > > -- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 13:36:32 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Damian Judge Rollison Subject: Re: poetics not published by academic presses In-Reply-To: <007301c27098$3c7adce0$6609a8c0@belzjones1500.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Ditto on the Koch book, o Aaron of the sexy voice -- it's on the same shelf in Barnes & Noble as Oliver, Pinsky (not that terrible, actually), Hirsch (yech), and all those other books about how poetry is a spirit dance for your inner iron john or johanna, but it's just exactly the opposite thing: a non-condescending, down-to-earth introduction/invitation, on par with his great books about teaching poetry to children. Damian On Thu, 10 Oct 2002 15:04:26 -0500 Aaron Belz wrote: > > every silly how to write or how to write poetry book there is -- > > fussel, hollander, ciardi, poemcrazy, writing down the bones, bird by > > bird, the writing life, the artists way -- my students seem to insist on > > it. I try to treat it like having to scan yucky not-about-business > > books like how to negotiate anything or dale carnegie or toastmasters, > > but, in fact, it just makes me mean. > > > Catherine, > > I hope you're not including Kenneth Koch's _Making Your Own Days_ in this > mini-rant. I used it in a class this spring, and it was in no wise a > "how-to" book; it's part anthology, part Kochian wisdom, all very great. I > agree that most "You too can write poems" books make "real" poets grumpy, > but Koch's is not among those. Take a look at it. Use it in your > workshop. > > Aaron > > > p.s. Why am I still receiving emails from this list? I tried to > unsubscribe yesterday; does anyone know how to unsubscribe? Please > backchannel, and thanks, you're a dear. > > p.p.s. If anyone who was too shy to call me on my telephone wants to hear > my voice (it's very sexy), you can hear me read a poem on NPR's "Here and > Now" tomorrow at noon EST. Well, the show begins at noon, but the poetry > segment (feature "roving poet" Jim Behrle) is near the end of the show. > (Correct me if I'm wrong, Jim.) If your NPR doesn't get this show, you can > do like i do and tune in at http://www.wbur.org > > [Now get me offa here, gods of unsubscription!] <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< damian judge rollison department of english university of virginia djr4r@virginia.edu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 21:38:15 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lakey Teasdale Subject: The Flame-throwers and Virginia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Flame-throwers and Virginia All matters reviewed and considered, deeply considered there was no choice only the distinctive option: Choose & choose quickly: miracles occur in threes heralded by ravens The rooks overlook the pawns, the bell & the book The flame throwers aware the hour and an unkindness of crows approaching dawn and apportioned one flame, each for a specified = indictment Virginia not at all disinterested, the interested party proceeded to reform and form the intangible Oh, touch her not! Not her heart. Just polish the remaining. Shards will not provoke you, You! One stated on oath that the polarised lie was white. the Other claimed quite a different colour. Oath again. another radiant surface reveals nothing more than her shield reflecting all the visible rays & from every angle poised. Now is the time for your pre-war gratification. Do not bury your thoughts in the sand, Virginia! Though in league with (no)one. But one whose stones lay heavy. the Ones that follow are Lapis Lazuli=20 and Amber at her feet. Your hand holds the flame.=20 Your hand holds the flame. Your hand holds the flame. Virginia was no lady and the lady was no: you-know and had no, none to speak of, charm. The snake she wore around her neck was but for decoration,=20 the jewels from the Count given away long ago. Oh, please. The vieux chapeau is not so trivial as lies. Damned lies. It never was a marriage of convenience,=20 the inconvenience of it all: trifling with the servants,=20 the pretty maids all in a=20 row row row complaining of the courtly though churning advances of=20 the Count, notches burning advancing blindly upward on his thigh, Bone.=20 seeking fresh advantages They were but slaves. Virginia, rent the garments of velvet Pride blossomed in embroidered tatters,=20 and in place a priori et a fortiori to the fall.=20 Uncouth! Unjust!=20 Unjust! Oh, just a minute, now=20 or Just was/not up to it. The lawyers: fools and knaves! The navy decommissioned! Oh, mend her ways! She wends her way swiftly, the eagle simply cannot compare. The secrecy & oaths, the pact and vows,=20 as between arsonists, sworn.=20 Ransom was high.=20 Her captain was: Courageous. Virginia! Prisoner! fall forward. fall in. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 20:44:09 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Lasko Subject: Re: women in The New American Poetry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Don't have copy in my lap, but were Helen Adam or Daisy Alden included? >From: Michael Magee >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: women in The New American Poetry >Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 11:15:44 -0400 > >Hi all, > >A question for ye: there seems to be a general consensus that the fact >that Don Allen's The New American Poetry 1945-1960 includes only a single >handful of women poets is a real failing of the book if not of Allen's. >My question is, which women poets do you think should have, could have, >been included at the time - i.e. who if anyone did Allen miss that would >have made sense right then and there. DiPrima, for instance? I know she >was fairly new to the scene when the anthology came out (or indeed, was >she not quite there yet, or *just* there as with Berkson?). And I also >assume that poetic polarizations made someone like Plath unfeasible (so >that, while someone might argue that she *should* have been there, no one >could really argue that she *could* have under the circumstances, besides >which its a little early for her too). Okay, speak. > >-m. _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 20:48:09 +0000 Reply-To: rsillima@yahoo.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: John Weners Memorial..St. Mark's.."in the glamour of this hour" Comments: To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed The title of the Wieners poem was "A poem for suckers" Send me the star... But if you live in SF, you can go look at the Polk-Sutter Apartments at that very corner, as that is the old Hotel Wentley, Ron ----Original Message Follows---- From: Harry Nudel Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: John Weners Memorial..St. Mark's.."in the glamour of this hour" Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 06:44:53 -0400 No food..so the usual sick crew was busy was busy slicing cold meat off the cadaver & serving it on toast....Vincent Katz had the best clothes...Good Jesuit Education...when A.G. kept interrupting his reading in a class..Jn sd..."why don't you call the embassy and tell them you're Allen Ginsberg and they'll provide you with a translation"...shop&stop...crystal & donuts..a sad old man living off the state...Weiners was 5x the poet of Koch so he drew 1/5 the audience...poetic justice...i saw him in Buffalo in all night diners...a stange man? pony tailed..twirling coffee...i was too scared to speak to my shadow let alone him...speak up young man....a star to who can tell us the title of Poem for Cocksuckers in the original 1958 Hotel Wentley Poems.."Up the st. under the wheels/ of a strange car is his stash- The ritual./ We make it. And have made it....beat end in is the end..DRn... _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 17:53:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mairead Byrne Subject: Re: women in The New American Poetry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dear Mike, The late great May Swenson, who seems to sustain a genius for being excluded from anthologies. The late great Gwendolyn Brooks. And on the subject of Plath, which I am very reluctant to broach, George Bowering writes: "But Plath? She was the darling of the academic poets and the young women who had conventional dreams. we knew that she represented the other side, where Robert Lowell and Ted Hughs had set up camp." In what sense did contemporary reviews of Plath's work convey her darlingness? Reviews of The Colossus seem condescending and sexist to me. In what sense was Plath the darling of "the young women who had conventional dreams"? Who were these women? In what way did their conventional dreams impact on editors? What's the 'other side'? Plath broke convention and was a major contributor to the establishment of new subject matter in lyric poetry in English ("Three Women," which may or may not be lyric, is the first poem in English, which I know of, which includes a live female infant). I'll be very happy to know of others, of course. Mairead >>> bowering@SFU.CA 10/10/02 15:42 PM >>> > And I also >assume that poetic polarizations made someone like Plath unfeasible (so >that, while someone might argue that she *should* have been there, no one >could really argue that she *could* have under the circumstances, besides >which its a little early for her too). Okay, speak. Good subject. But Plath? She was the darling of the academic poets and the young women who had conventional dreams. we knew that she represented the other side, where Robert Lowell and Ted Hughs had set up camp. -- George Bowering Has a shock of brown hair. Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 16:38:11 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: The Poetry Project Subject: Poetry Project Announcements Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Next week is another busy one at The Poetry Project! *** MONDAY OCTOBER 14 [8:00pm] ANNA MOSCHOVAKIS AND STANDARD SCHAEFER TUESDAY OCTOBER 15 [6:00pm - 8:00pm, at The Bowery Poetry Club] THE WORLD 58 BOOK RELEASE PARTY WEDNESDAY OCTOBER 16 [8:00pm] MERRILL GILFILLAN AND CHARLES NORTH FRIDAY OCTOBER 18 [10:30pm] DIRTY 30 http://www.poetryproject.com/calendar.html *** MONDAY OCTOBER 14 [8:00pm] ANNA MOSCHOVAKIS AND STANDARD SCHAEFER Anna Moschovakis' poems have appeared in 6x6, Iowa Review, BOMB, can we hav= e our ball back, 110 Stories: New York Writes After September 11, and Torch (forthcoming), among other publications. Her translations from the French are included in the books Horoscope (Turtle Point Press) and Miserable Miracle (New York Review Books). Since 2000, she has coordinated Cronica*, = a series of readings and broadsides. Standard Schaefer is a poet and fiction writer living in Southern California. His first book Nova was selected as a title for the prestigious National Poetry Series. He has co-edited the journals Ribot and Rhizome and written a number of book reviews. Paul Vangelisti notes: "A young writer, a poet of ideas, Standard Schaefer is that rare type of writer who is both a traditionalist and a contrarian. He writes about things. He has something t= o say. And knows how to say it." TUESDAY OCTOBER 15 [6:00pm - 8:00pm, at the Bowery Poetry Club] THE WORLD 58 BOOK RELEASE PARTY The Poetry Project celebrates the long-awaited publication of The World 58 with a Gala Book Release Party and Reading at The Bowery Poetry Club (308 Bowery between Houston and Bleecker). Readers include Anselm Berrigan, Donna Brook, Tom Devaney, Maggie Dubris, Bob Hershon, Deniz=E9 Lauture, Kimberly Lyons, Maureen Owen, Jenny Smith, Edwin Torres, Jo Ann Wasserman and Lewis Warsh. Copies will be on sale. WEDNESDAY OCTOBER 16 [8:00pm] MERRILL GILFILLAN AND CHARLES NORTH A native of Ohio and a former Manhattan resident, Merrill Gilfillan has lived in the American West since 1980. He is the author of two collections of stories, three books of domestic travel sketches covering the Great Plains and outer Appalachia, and eight volumes of poetry. His forthcoming poetry titles are Small Weathers from Qua Books and The Seasons from Adventures in Poetry. Charles North's most current title is The Nearness of the Way You Look Tonight from Adventures in Poetry. Other collections include: New & Selecte= d Poems (Sun & Moon, 1999), The Year of the Olive Oil (Hanging Loose, 1989), Leap Year: Poems 1968-1978 (Kulchur, 1978) and No Other Way: Selected Prose (Hanging Loose, 1998). On his New & Selected Poems Publishers Weekly writes= : "As brave, conceptual and big-minded as Jack Spicer=B9s lifetime of conferenc= e calls with the underworld, North=B9s work constantly greets us with the deft presence of a mind devilishly enamored of improbable form and substantial ideation. This 30-year retrospective is a genuine poetic find." FRIDAY OCTOBER 18 [10:30pm] DIRTY 30 Part One of an ongoing video series, these films and videos are the product= s of an inquiry into a description of what "dirty" means in thirty seconds or less. Out of this investigation came twenty-three very moving and beautiful shorts, each 2 to 15 minutes in length. *** Unless otherwise noted, admission to all events is $10, $7 for students and seniors, and $5 for Poetry Project members. Schedule is subject to change. The Poetry Project is located in St. Mark's Church in-the-Bowery at 131 E. 10th Street, on the corner of 2nd Avenue in Manhattan. Trains F, 6, N, R. The Poetry Project is wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. Please call (212) 674-0910 for more information, or e-mail us at poproj@poetryproject.com. *** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 17:32:35 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: I Believe In What I Know Is Not True Because I Am God MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I Believe In What I Know Is Not True Because I Am God And I Know Me "...the Franks did nothing evil to [the women] except pierce their bellies with their lances." - Chronicler Fulcher of Chartres following the Crusaders' slaughter of Moslem women outside the walls of Antioch "It was a just and marvelous judgment of God, that [the temple of Solomon] should be filled with the blood of the unbelievers." - Chronicler Raymond of Aguilers on the Crusaders' conquest of Jerusalem "It is though the sword automatically performs its function of justice, which is the function of mercy.... The swordsman turns into an artist of the first grade, engaged in producing a work of genuine originality." - DT Suzuki on Zen and swordsmanship, written during the Japanese Rape of Nanking, during which 350,000 Chinese were slaughtered, and 80,000 women were raped, many of whom were disemboweled. "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement...." - the Koran, 5:33 "In Maarra our troops boiled pagan adults in cooking pots; they impaled children on spits and devoured them grilled." - Radulph of Caen, 1098, on the conquest of Maara "If ordered to march: tramp, tramp or shoot: bang, bang. This is the manifestation of the highest wisdom of enlightenment. The unity of Zen and war ... extends to the farthest reaches of the holy war now under way." - Zen Master Harada Daiun Sogaku, 1939 "I do not understand this squeamishness about the use of gas. I am strongly in favour of using poison gas against uncivilised tribes." - Winston Churchill, on approving the use of poison gas on Kurdish rebels in Iraq during the 1920s. "Kill them all. God will know His own." - 1208, papal legate Arnald Amalric, in reply to Pope Innocent II's soldiers after Beziers fell and they asked how to tell the faithful apart from the infidels "So they put them to flight by Allah's permission. And Dawood slew Jalut, and Allah gave him kingdom and wisdom, and taught him of what He pleased. And were it not for Allah's repelling some men with others, the earth would certainly be in a state of disorder; but Allah is Gracious to the creatures." - the Koran 2:251 "Our men, moreover, returning in victory and bearing many heads fixed upon pikes and spears, furnished a joyful spectacle for the people of God....And know for certain that we have captured for the Lord 200 cities and fortresses." - in a letter from Anselm of Ribemont to Manasses II, Archbishop of Reims, February 1098, during the siege of Antioch "When people stop believing in God, they won't start believing in nothing. They'll start believing in anything." - GK Chesterton, on why he believed me must believe in God God is that which does not exist. In order to bring God into your life, you must know that He does not exist. In order to bring God into your life, you must create that which does not exist. That is, you must be the God of God by creating God in your own imagination. You must invent God and believe in your invention. God is bringing that which does not exist into existence. So know that God does not exist, but believe Him into the world and create, create, create, create. God is that which does not exist, He is the negation of all things that are, and you must believe in the negation of all things, and in so doing bring Him into the world. Because you know He doesn't exist, and because you want the world to become that which does not exist and you want to believe believe believe. And then you will kill God and become the negation of all negation and enter into the light of pure affirmation. Who am Amon Ra Allah Lord Jesus Buddha Brahma Atman I am therefore I am not. War please kill me. I do believe. God. I am Innocent II I am Raymond of Aguilers I am Fulcher, Bernard, I am the Unspeakable rendered Holy. Sangre de Cristo, the Blood of Christ, bloody cross, all men. Pledge your irrevocable engagement. God is your negation, God never stops bleeding. All men. In mysteries men soon do lose their way. Hold fast and watch me come. My hands are tied but my arms are open. They are bleeding for you. In the end is the Word, for the end is when the flesh profane is made Word in flame. All men. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 18:22:28 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: JDHollo@AOL.COM Subject: Fwd: Writer/ Performer/Naropa faculty Bobbie Louise Hawkins One Night Only at Joe's Pub October 14 Comments: To: Askealicia@aol.com, bernstei@bway.net, aberrigan@excite.com, Yan.brailowsky@diplomatie.gouv.fr, olivierbrossard@hotmail.com, leeann@TENDERBUTTONS.NET, Chrcorrea@aol.com, sclay@granarybooks.com, vcorpuz@naropa.edu, Atticus40@aol.com, Thalia_Field@hotmail.com, freyj@spot.colorado.edu, edisacommie@earthlink.net, agil@erols.com, mgizzi@massed.net, mitch.highfill@db.com, holman@Bard.edu, turbeville@earthlink.net, lmj2@nyu.edu, Ken@kenjordan.tv, nkossman@columbia.edu, levitsk@IBM.NET, lungfull@interport.net, tarmac@pipeline.com, anonyme@concentric.net, smaldovan@uniworldgroup.com, rmasterson@westchesterweekly.com, am1919@earthlink.net, skypillar108@yahoo.com, urbanthemeaki@yahoo.com, ostashevsky@hotmail.com, pomowen@ix.netcom.com, RonPadgettPoet@aol.com, simonp@pipeline.com, poetics@acsu.buffalo.edu, gquasha@stationhill.org, tsalamun@english.umass.edu, harris4@idt.net, sukenick@spot.colorado.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_156.15a635b5.2ad757a4_boundary" --part1_156.15a635b5.2ad757a4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --part1_156.15a635b5.2ad757a4_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-xc02.mx.aol.com (rly-xc02.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.135]) by air-xc01.mail.aol.com (v89.10) with ESMTP id MAILINXC12-1010114443; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 11:44:43 -0400 Received: from flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net (flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.232]) by rly-xc02.mx.aol.com (v89.10) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINXC24-1010114422; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 11:44:22 -0400 Received: from pool-63.50.165.78.mhub.grid.net ([63.50.165.78]) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17zfTw-0006gM-00; Thu, 10 Oct 2002 08:44:16 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 5.01 (1630) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 09:44:11 -0600 Subject: Writer/ Performer/Naropa faculty Bobbie Louise Hawkins One Night Only at Joe's Pub October 14 From: judy steven To: judy steven , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , CC: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) Spread the word to folks in NYC! It's only $10. BOBBIE LOUISE HAWKINS NEW One-Person Evening: ONE NIGHT ONLY LIFE AS WE KNOW IT Joe=B9s Pub 425 Lafayette St. New York City Monday, October 14, 2002 Performance will be at 9:30 pm Tickets $10 at the door. Information 212-539-8778 WHAT THE PRESS HAS SAID ABOUT HAWKINS: NEW YORK TIMES ...sharp as splinters ...devastating and ironic ... ...beguiling, witty, and occasionally militant ... ROLLING STONE =B3Her prose is vivid, tinged with sarcasm and wisdom . . . A writer with a distinctive and memorable style.=B2 BOSTON SOJOURNER =B3. . . a composite of experiences causing an introspective look into one=B9s own existence . . . A standing ovation when the performance was concluded.=B2 TOLEDO - THE COLLEGIAN =B3Her ear is exact- the dialogue is sharp as splinters, as devastating and ironic as any dialogue set down by Raymond Carver or Ann Beattie.=B2 TORONTO GLOBE & MAIL =B3Hawkins punctuates her stories with laugh-provoking one-liners, but much of the humor comes from the faithful observation of character and the plausi-ble rendering of circumstance.=B2 THE SAN DIEGO UNION =B3Hawkins is keenly aware of the complicated vastness of even just one little human universe. Her sentences do not meet that universe head on but at a =8Cslight angle=B9. Hawkins=B9 writing participates in a tradition of American Modernism in prose that sometimes achieves an almost hallucinatory precision. A thoughtful artist=B9s eye informs the writ-ing.=B2 THE VAJRADHATU SUN =B3She excels at the short take, the oblique view, and the sort of incident that allows the storyteller leeway to expand, change and alter the fundamental nugget of actuality. Her curious, witty and occasionally militant slants make her writing unclassifiable but altogether beguiling.=B2 L.A. TIMES BOOK REVIEW =B3Hawkins moves with apparent ease from tale to tale, suffusing each with irony, anger or love as the occasion demands. Pieces of varying length are juxtaposed and, once fit together, the life of a woman emerges.=B2 PUBLISHERS WEEKLY =B3Hawkins, a splendidly handsome figure, is a poet and writer of poetic prose. In a voice as beautiful and senstive as a grand opera diva or the grandest of jazz singers, she reads from her works. She is a priceless artist who captures in every line a past that becomes a slice of American social history.=B2 SAN FRANCISCO EXAMINER =B3Miss Hawkins is a superb impressionist as well as a salty prose writer of American miniatures, artful distillations of our humor and humanity.=B2 --part1_156.15a635b5.2ad757a4_boundary-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 18:23:15 -0400 Reply-To: men2@columbia.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Millie Niss Subject: Re: poetics not published by academic presses Comments: To: Martha L Deed , webartery@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <000401c27097$16e6eb00$8f9966d8@CADALY> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Welll little poems in prose sounds like a direct translation of Baudelaire's "Petits Poemes en Prose" --- but his are more than 3 lines lone, more like a paragraph. They are rather nice. Speaking of prose poems, has anyone seen the journal "The Styles"? I just bought it because its graphic design drew me in, and some of it is wonderful. Some of it is a little schlocky. It doesn't seem to feature especially well-known poets/writers -- I am hoping I could get in it some day (it has extensive (for a poetry magazine) bios in tiny type where people talk about weird revealing things, which are almost prose poems themselves. I don't know if you can get a poem published if you have a boring bio. And it has a page of blank, lined paper at the end which says "We welcome submissions. Please use our paper if you like." Many of the works are prose poems. Most of the stories are sort of prose poems. A few things are poems or stories proper. It's pretty short for a journal. [insert the why can't I ever manage to get published lament. then add the because, you fool, you don't submit often enough. people who get published submit a lot of work. than add the, no, I doubt it, I think they are just so lucky/brilliant/well-connected that everything they submit gets accepted. now meow. jealously. say at least if I am not published in print poetry except for a few times in the Buffalo News, I will never have to give my profession as, "poet" and have people either fawn over me or avoid me like an anthrax spore. saying I do web work sounds more cool. until they find out it's unpaid. and involves -- gasp! -- art and poetry. it isn't is if I am one of those cool people who design obnoxious banner ads saying click here you have won a pink polka-dotted VW bug if you come take delivery of it in Topeka, Kansas in the next 24 hours by buying your ticket on ValuJet. And a ticket for the Bug. plus pay the overweight fee on it and submit to all sorts of hassles while they search its nooks and crannies for explosives which they might find since this is perhaps not an ad for ValuJet but a ploy, a sinister trick perpetrated by Hamas or Al-Qaeda to trap the evil American through his own greed and stupidity and blow him up along with several hunderd other innocents and their cars which they are idiotically trying to transport by airplane. No, I do not write banner ads for Al-Qaeda. Not that they have approached me and that I have turned them down. You see I am hard up for cash and if they paid cash _ahead of time_ (I don't accept web design fees in the afterlife, with all the virgins at my feet and hopefully at more than my feet or I would be sorely disappointed but you know all the virgins, well, screwing me, but really you know who wants to be screwed by a virgin? they have no technique and tend to squeal or if male just squirt and go to sleep with little before or afterplay; what fun is that? anyway, I don't accept sexual favors in the afterlife or even the pure sight of Allah the magnificent as payment for web design.) I'd need cold hard cash. So if a putative Islamic terrorist organization were to come to be to ask for a banner ad and the price were right, I might consider it, but the attendant risks are great here in this country where there is no more free speech... so better be a web artist, than a mouse for hire lest the wrong people hire you. Of course my art itself could be objectionalble to georgie porgie, donald rumface and all the rest of the cabinet of fools who run this country in my name -- after all, I might use their name in vain -- the Germans did and now they are the bad guys, so much so that we have abandoned all pretext of having an Alliance with France and Germany (England's ok, Tony's wrapped around George's little finger, for some reasona I've never fathomed. Maybe he likes to fish at Kennebunkport) so anyway, I might run awry of one of these great men or women (condoleeza's quite a gal -- where'd they find such a fascist Black girl? Somewhere in the vicinity of that strange place they got Clarence Thomas from, no doubt: affirmative action is good for me but bad for anybody else... and I do say "girl," not woman for she does what big daddy Bush tells her to and Republicans call all women of color "girl" unless they are on welfare, in which case they call them "slut" for doing in bed at night what everyone else either does in bed at night or wants to unless it is their job in which case they probably want to curl up with a teddy bear after a nice bath and watch re-runs of I Love Lucy while dreaming of a job as a waitress or secretary. so I'm supposed to be a web artist, another way to say I'm unemployed, zipppo money, no damn luck, a real hard case, my ass is hanging in the wind. I sell cards I make as spinoff from my projects (my god! how low!) -- cutesy elephants in harbors covered with buoys like the facade of a seafood restaurant I saw. Dogs riding giant fish (stuffed of course, but I took off the back plate for the picture) while eating smaller versions, rainbow fish with bull's eyes for eyes lounging on the dunes, giant metal sculptures of mechanical men, walking on water, towards the beach-- they have landed, they are coming, they will get us. One is reading a big black book. Is it a bible? Is it a manual in arabic for blowing up cabanas? Is it the constitution of the United States, which he has duly studied, line by line, like any immigrant to our great land should. If so he'll form a strange idea that in our country freedom reigns, that power is checked, that war is declared, that leaders are elected, that we the people rule. He'll think we can say what we want to say where we want to say it with as many like minded people as we want. He won't know about the waiting paddy-buses, which contrary to the sound of the words, aren't padded, in fact have no seats in some cases, you are just stuffed in after being maced and for God sakes don't resist because attacking a police officer is a federal offence worthy of years and years of jail during which you must make license plates so that American cars can pollute the atmosphere and disobey the Kyoto treaty and commit vehicular manslaughter and drive drunk and make it so little johnny isn't safe to play outside or cross the street to Jennifer's house, yes, you can make license plates, and don't attempt to personalize with little messages like "wear your seatbelt or you might be in jail for the next 25 years if you are in California" or "one joint is the same as one murder: doesn't murder sound more fun? It doesn't cause health problems and improves your self-esteem wheras marijuana leads to an amotivational syndrome and a lack of self-actualization which can be quite harmful. So the next time you start to roll a joint, think: why don't I kill my high school biology teacher instead? It would rid so many children of suffering" If you do this you will lose your work priveleges that is you will no longer get 60 cents a day which means ytou won't have any money to pay off the guy who is protecting you from the guy who wants to rape you so I hope you are not too tight back there or you will be sorry. But don't complain to the guard if it hurts because he knows that after a while anal sex does not hurt therefore he will gladly offer you more experience so as to diminish your pain. And don't complain to the press that the guard is a rapist because when YOU get charged with raping a guard it will be for life and ther WILL be witnesses even though you were not on top they'll say they couldn't tell (as if they were such prudes that they either weren't looking or actually did not have the visual discrimination to determine whose prick pricked whom) why you may ask are you in jail? I admit that as I write this I had forgot but that is because you have been locked up so long that everyone but you has forgotten but you know it's becuase you stood on a beach and said "Fuck the USA!" and then were maced and grabbed and dragged backwards by your feet into a waiting paddy wagon off to jail on suspected terrorism charges. Yoou of course meant no harm. You thought you were being Whitmanesque. Your english is literary but not colloquial, and you were imagining loving the whole country, the country of your asylum, where you have finally arrived, you were saying that you love it, and the greatest love is the love that man can do to a woman, in this case the woman being mother earth, Mother America (you don't realize that we have no such effeminate notion of our country. We are much more of a Fatherland like Nazi Germany), so you wanted to love, make love to, screw, fornicate with, and finally FUCK AMERICA. And in joyous but accented terms you said so. And no one knows your plight. You haven't been charged. You are not entitled to a lawyer. You can be held indefinitely. And when you are relaeased, a kindly judge, who also was an immigrant, a Jewish immigrant from after the War who also read Whitman, will tell you how sorry he is. He will say that a great injustice has been foisted upon you. But that the law of the land, the law of Bush's land, requires that you be immediately deported even though you were found innocent of all crimes. And you camnnnot attempt to enter the United States (as if you's want to now!) for five years or be subject to criminal prosecution under the Homeland Security Act. Ah the joys of being an immigrant. I fortnately, am a native born American and share the guilt rather than the pain for all the injustice practuced here. It is not that we are the worst country. Even I prefer it here to -- dare I say it -- Iraq. But we are getting worse at an alarming pace. And I, a web worker with no income except for government disability, am in the firing line. Once, when democrats ruled, I was someone with a disability, someone to be protected, nurtured, and helped back to work if I chose. Now I am rather someone to be resented, someone who costs society rather than someone who brings in the dough (despite the cultural capital I produce), someone who would be better off dead, or at least off the disability rolls so loing as I was not in any facility that cost money to keep up but also did not become an eyesore in the street. Moreover, with all the strange crime (not done by crazy people), it is getting dangerous to be crazy. Will we be made to register when we move in to a neighborhood in case we rape young children? Will we be denied the right to vote, to serve on juries, to become lawyers, judges, politicians? We already are, but with Papa Bush it will get worse. Ronald Reagan, for all his hatefulness, was a loving conservative. He never loved my people, the poor and disabled, but he was warm. Bush is a hating conservative. He uses words like "evil." I think the concept of evil is best left to theologians. I am afraid of being designated as evil (perhaps my codition is a punishment for something bad I did like NEVER ONCE pledge allegiance to the flag once I know what all the words meant. I wasn't going to bow down to a piece of cloth. My father had already read me about the golden calf in the Bible, and this seemed similar. And if it meant bowing down to the COUNTRY , that was even worse. All the heroes I had been taught to revere had fought the country: Harriet Tubman, Martin Luther King, Che Guevara (I was white but in a black school). How long until they come for me? Since I am taking my anti-paranoia pills like a good girl, I have to conclude that my fear is realistic... So maybe it's better not to make waves by getting my name in print...] -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Catherine Daly Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 3:56 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: poetics not published by academic presses These are self-help books, though some do verge on "applied" reference material and crit lite. I have read in the palm of your hand and mary oliver's book, and just about every silly how to write or how to write poetry book there is -- fussel, hollander, ciardi, poemcrazy, writing down the bones, bird by bird, the writing life, the artists way -- my students seem to insist on it. I try to treat it like having to scan yucky not-about-business books like how to negotiate anything or dale carnegie or toastmasters, but, in fact, it just makes me mean. How many gifts of Rumi-related items have you received from students, family members, well-meaning friends? What did you write in the thank you notes? Rgds, Catherine Daly using up post #2 cadaly@pacbell.net From IN THE PALM OF YOUR HAND: THE POET'S PORTABLE WORKSHOP, by Steve Kowit: Chapter 3 Little Poems in Prose "Three sentences about a moment that changed one's life! Is this a vignette, a tale, a short-story, a sketch, an anecdote? We could call it any of those -- or we could call it a little poem in *prose*." ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 19:07:43 -0400 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: Biggggggg Lie....(7)...'it is nothing but roaring.... our revels here are ended...the play has run its course....the sun of history burns up the shadows of site.....ebon ethiop and haberdasher jew wish you all...the puppet players..the wall..the lion & the longing...the mute audience...the kingdom and the king...the stabbing left hand...and the tightening right...a merry merry let us not hope dead nite... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 19:58:23 -0230 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K.Angelo Hehir" Subject: Quincy Troupe & Hugh Masekela MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi all, I'm wondering if any one knows how to get in touch with Quincy Troupe? I've looked at the UCSD site and his e-mail isn't listed with the literature department. I'm working on an article on Hugh Masekela and I believe that Troupe is working on a biography. I want to ask him about it. Also, I know that some of you out there know a tonne about music so any help with my Masekela project would also be appreciated. thanks, kevin H. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 12:40:36 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Wystan Curnow (FOA ENG)" Subject: Re: Academy as First World? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Just to complicate somewhat the categorizing going on below. (1) Teaching from the published archive only. And (2) the rise of localism. I've been teaching contemporary American poetry in distant NZ. I order the books for the university library relevant to my teaching and order more small press publications than university press or mainline publishers. I also order audio and video tapes or CDs, and when we manage to get poets out here we put them in the studio and record them. Almost the poets we teach we have on either audio or video, and these are available to students in the audio-visual library. Of course,the epc which is an indispensable teaching resource, provides valuable soken word performance material. Wystan -----Original Message----- From: komninos zervos [mailto:k.zervos@MAILBOX.GU.EDU.AU] Sent: Friday, 11 October 2002 2:48 a.m. To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Academy as First World? the 'slam' reading and web poetry were preceded by spoken word performance poetry in the 60s and 70s, and something else before that and that spoken word poetry is different from published poetry and has qualities of its own and not judge it by print published poetry standards. after all print published poetry is the currency of academia, the saleable commodity for publishers, editors, book sellers etc. and has little interest in poetry in other media. the thing is poetry is a local activity and an academic study. in the local activity performance is equally as important if not more important than publication. but when academics try to see the 'big picture' to define national poetries, there is only the published archive to study. in the past this has meant the setting up of canons, based on the published archive. lately people have been more interested in seeing poetry not only within literature but the culture in which it exists in as well. poetry has become a global activity and the major publishers have declared it is no longer financially viable to publish poetry, that there isn't a large enough reading audience to publish individual collections of contemporary poets. this has made publication a more localized activity again as in the 1970s and 1980s with the flourishing of small presses and of course the on-line poetry journals, zines, and digital poetries, which highlight localized activity to a global audience. no matter how hard the academy tries to control the agenda of poetry it can't, and i believe, probably stopped trying to in the mid 1980s. the local activity of poetry has a much greater effect on people's lives directly. the discussion about baraka on this list lately is a prime example. what i see we have today is lots of different localized activities of poetry all over the world, not necessarily having style as a common interest, but thematically linked, the ethno-poets, the eco-poets, the gender-poets, the theory-poets, the digital-poets, the code-poets, the left-poets, the cowboy-poets, the bush-poets, as well as physically localized groups around cities and towns, buffalo-poets, albany-poets, the toronto poets, melbourne anarchist poets, sydney poets union poets, subvoicive poets in the uk, etc etc etc. it would be impossible to list all the localized groups of poetic activity. even the university presses are no longer considering the publication of poetry as a priority. this will have a devastating effect on academics who in the past have been able to ensure their tenure with a healthy publication record. well which ever way you take your poetry, you have to enjoy what you are doing i suppose. i enjoy experimenting with digital poetry, talking about poetic culture on this list and organizing and participating in a monthly spoken word poetry event at my local arts co-operative at the gold coast. cheers komninos http://users.bigpond.net.au/mangolegs At 11:34 PM 10/10/02, you wrote: >YES!!! > >At 12:36 AM -0400 10/10/02, Murat Nemet-Nejat wrote: >>I think Gary's analysis is on the nose. Slam readings and the web itself have >>created new ways of communicating and reading, which are having a slow, often >>checkered, but profound effect on the nature of poetry. >> >>Murat > > >-- > > > > >--- >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.394 / Virus Database: 224 - Release Date: 3/10/02 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 21:38:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Clements Subject: Re: women in The New American Poetry In-Reply-To: <200210101515.g9AFFiCc012820@dept.english.upenn.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Interesting question. On a related tangent, Ron Silliman recently posted on his blog a few words by Weinberger, in which W. wonders "whether we're not all prisoners of the Don Allen taxonomy." He points out that Allen neglects not only women poets, but poets of the "sort-of generation" between Black Mountain and the Objectivists--Rexroth, Rukeyser, Patchen, etc. Even points out that Lowell in the early 50's considered himself a Poundian--quite different from our conception of him. Many more interesting tidbits and questions--check out http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/, if you haven't already. Are we due for a New American Poetry Redux? Brian -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Michael Magee Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 10:16 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: women in The New American Poetry Hi all, A question for ye: there seems to be a general consensus that the fact that Don Allen's The New American Poetry 1945-1960 includes only a single handful of women poets is a real failing of the book if not of Allen's. My question is, which women poets do you think should have, could have, been included at the time - i.e. who if anyone did Allen miss that would have made sense right then and there. DiPrima, for instance? I know she was fairly new to the scene when the anthology came out (or indeed, was she not quite there yet, or *just* there as with Berkson?). And I also assume that poetic polarizations made someone like Plath unfeasible (so that, while someone might argue that she *should* have been there, no one could really argue that she *could* have under the circumstances, besides which its a little early for her too). Okay, speak. -m. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 21:25:07 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ray Bianchi Subject: Re: inside/outside the academy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit there are some of us who work in jobs and write poetry I wonder how people can be academics are be truly innovative? Are there any others on the "wallace stevens" plan out there ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pam Brown" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 8:35 PM Subject: inside/outside the academy > Hello Poeticists, > I'll probably sound a bit off-topic here but I > thought most poets who work as academics do it > more-than-partly because, usually, there's no salary > paid for writing poetry. > Cheerio from Pam Brown --- mdw wrote: > > I agree with Joe Amato that Andrew Rothman's notion > > that the most daring > > poetry must come from the outside is relentlessly > > romantic and more than a > > little out of date. > > > > That said, I think that Joe and Maria's defense of > > how poetry CAN take place > > along the seams, let's say, of academic life--an > > argument I myself have often > > made--feels less and less adequate to my sense of > > contemporary poetic > > circumstances. > > > > The problem, as I see it, is not that daring poetry > > MUST come from outside the > > academic context. The problem is that it's > > increasingly--not absolutely, > > increasingly--impossible for ANY poetry to come from > > outside the academic > > context. > > > > I'm not saying that there aren't many great poets > > who are not academics, by > > any means--we have a bunch here in DC, people like > > Heather Fuller, Rod Smith, > > Buck Downs. But the problem is that such poets can > > be to a greater and greater > > degree simply ignored, beyond the local environment. > > Again, not absolutely. > > But more and more so. > > > > It was possible, perhaps even through the 70s? the > > 80s? for poets to establish > > significant profiles as poets by publishing, their > > whole lives, entirely in > > the small presses and small magazines. But at best, > > now, such poets receive > > marginal attention, if any at all. > > > > So, sure, poetry can be written outside the academic > > world, and sure, it can > > be written inside the academic world. I find both > > those points true, if a > > little obvious, since poetry has an amazing ability > > to be written under ANY > > circumstances. But the increasing hegemony of > > academic production means that, > > these days, increasingly, academic success=poetic > > value, in the short run > > anyway (who knows what of this poetry will survive? > > does it matter to us?). > > Non-academic poets are second rate citizens at best, > > if they're allowed any > > cache as citizens at all. > > > > My challenge then is this: more attention needs to > > be paid to poets who are > > not part of the academic machine, or who are more > > marginally part of it, not > > because they're better, but just because, you know, > > they MIGHT be. > > > > I'd love to see a list of poets you like, right now, > > who are not primarily top > > shelf academics. Let's discuss their work at least > > for once. > > > > Maintain the possibility of, sometimes, stepping > > outside-- > > > > Mark Wallace > > ===== > Web site/P.Brown - http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Workshop/7629/ > > http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger for SMS > - Always be connected to your Messenger Friends ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 16:52:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Re: poetics not published by academic presses Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Thanks again for the post, Mark. I reread it a couple of times, and see that there's an emphasis on venues for poetics as one indication (among others) of what you're describing. I guess that's a tough call. I don't really know what options existed in the past for non-academic books of poetics/criticism. Post-WWII, I can only think of a few before the 80s: New Directions, Black Sparrow, maybe Four Seasons? Mostly it seemed like that stuff appearedin magazines. Were there non-academic presses in the 50s, 60s, 70s and/or 80s doing a lot of poetics or criticism books? Ecco, maybe? Who was it that published A Quick Graph? Roof has done a few, yeah. But it seems like the options for non-academic poetics or criticism books might not ever have been very great. (I might be just drawing a blank.) There aren't a lot of options entirely outside of an academic context right now, true, but I took you up on your call & tried to think of some more-or-less recent things to add to the list. Tod Thilleman's Spuyten Duyvil has published a couple of recent things: Chris Stroffolino's Spin Cycle and David Rosenberg's See What You Think: Critical Essays for the Next Avant Garde. Talisman just published that big book of essays. I think Brian Kim Stefans has a book on digital poetics (& other things) coming out from Atelos. It's true that Sun & Moon is gone, but Green Integer is doing occasional books of poetics. Eileen Tabios did that great book, Black Lightning, which was published by Asian-American Writer's Workshop, though it is true it's being distributed by Temple U. She also did Jose Garcia Villa's selected, published by Kaya, which includes a number of essays, as well as co-editing Babaylan, an anthology of about 60 Filipina & Filipina-American writers, published by Aunt Lute. There's also My Romance, a book of arts-essays she did, published by Giraffe Books, which I think is in the Philippines. People also sometimes include that stuff in their books of poetry--Eileen Myles' Not Me, I think, and On My Way both have poetics essays in the back. It's something I'd like to see more of, actually. Most of the non-academic poetics/criticism activity seems to be in magazines, newspapers & newsletters, and increasingly on the web. Not just in webzines, but now, for instance, yeah, you mentioned Silliman's blog, which I do read. Plus Brian's, Jonathan's, Brandon's, and I think there are others--not that many, but it seems to have just started to catch on as another possible site, though Alan Sondheim has been doing a kind of poetics blogging for years on his. You brought up a lot more than this--I don't want to reduce everything you said to just this one wrinkle, because actually I appreciate everything you've said, and wonder if I'm not just overly-optimistic about everything. ("What, Me Worry?") But, work! Augh. Maybe more tomorrow, although I feel like I've been overposting ... anyway, I mostly wanted you to elaborate on your original post so I could better understand what you meant ... & you have & I do ... _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 17:26:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Kuszai Subject: Re: poetics not published by academic presses In-Reply-To: <000401c27097$16e6eb00$8f9966d8@CADALY> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Steve Kowit is a great teacher. Does this make him an academic? I met him at Southwestern College in Chula Vista, where he is a very important intellectual/academic figure; for many students he represents a key signpost in the academic journey. Is there anyone out there who has a problem with that? I can think of a dozen of students I actively encouraged to seek him out as a teacher, mentor, friend, poet (though not necessarily in that order) and about five or six who had already done so when I met them. The point is that what's getting called "academic" here seems to totally miss the point about what it is that "we" do in the academy--and boy, I'm sure glad that others have stepped in here to respond to what seems like one of the annual threads. This continual stream of consciousness, like a virtual Steve Kowit, can be an instructive rescue for a struggler in the desert. There are many deserts. Lets not get out of hand here. Thanks for the thoughts. >From IN THE PALM OF YOUR HAND: THE POET'S PORTABLE WORKSHOP, by Steve >Kowit: > >"Three sentences about a moment that changed one's life! Is this a >vignette, a tale, a short-story, a sketch, an anecdote? We could call >it any of those -- or we could call it a little poem in *prose*." Yikes. Worth trying. I'll try that. -- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 21:37:21 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ray Bianchi Subject: leave baraka alone MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am so sick of hearing about this I heard him read this poem, (in fact it was one of the few decent poems at the whole Dodge Fartival and it was not anti semitic ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maria Damon" To: Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 9:05 AM Subject: baraka > i just got this forwarded from another source; it sheds some light > on the matter: > > CounterPunch October 3, 2002 > Amiri Baraka's Somebody Blew Up America > Poetry as Treason? > by KURT NIMMO > > It seems you not only have to be careful what you say, as White House > spokesman Ari Fleischer warned last year, but also what you write, > especially if you are an African-American poet with a Muslim name and > Marxist politics. > > On September 19, Amiri Baraka, an influential beat poet and founder > of the Black Arts Repertory Theatre in Harlem, read a recent poem, > "Somebody Blew Up America," at the 2002 Geraldine R. Dodge Poetry > Festival at Waterloo Village in Stanhope, New Jersey. Note the > following lines from the poem: > > Who knew the World Trade Center was gonna get bombed > Who told 4000 Israeli workers at the Twin Towers To stay home that day > > Why did Sharon stay away? > > Since Baraka read his poem in September, popular news commentators and > powerful political organizations have called for the revocation of his > status as poet laureate of New Jersey, an honorary title which pays him a > modest salary of $10,000 per year. Even though he wrote the poem last > October, ten months before taking on the title as poet laureate, New > Jersey Governor James E. McGreevey wants Baraka to resign and apologize. > > Obviously, McGreevey doesn't know Baraka too well. "Amiri Baraka ain't > never been your Polite Negro Poet," writes Lee Bailey on EUR, a website > covering black entertainment and culture. "So you have to wonder what the > New Jersey powers-that-be were thinking when they named him Poet Laureate > of NJ?" In fact, Baraka warned the governor something like this might > happen. "I said, 'Governor, you're going to catch a lot of hell for > this,'" Baraka told the New York Times. "He said, 'I don't care.' I said, > 'If you don't care, I don't care.'" > > But the Anti-Defamation League does care and is leaning on McGreevey to > get rid of Amiri Baraka. It's not so easy, however. Baraka was selected by > a committee of poets and New Jersey state law gives the group sole power > of selection. They can't oust Baraka, nor can the governor. Baraka will > remain poet laureate until July, 2004 -- that is unless the state of New > Jersey can find a way to strip him of the title. > > Regardless, Shai Goldstein of the ADL said his organization will put the > pressure on the state's humanities and arts officials. The ideas expressed > in Baraka's poem, according to William Davidson, ADL chairman-elect, are > "directly linked with the anti-American xenophobia that caused such > destruction and the murder of so many Americans." In other words, Baraka > is not much better than Osama bin Laden. > > The New Jersey Council on the Arts said it "regrets" what Baraka chooses > to think and write, and they don't see how he can remain poet laureate. > Baraka, said the council members in a statement, is a "remarkable poet," > but also said his poem is "deeply hurtful and painful." One has to wonder > if the New Jersey Council on the Arts knows anything about poetry or > literature in general, which is often "hurtful" and "painful." Of course, > when the "hurt" and "pain" issues from powerful groups, such as the > Anti-Defamation League, not even poets have an excuse. They must be purged > for their unacceptable political beliefs. > > Before "everything changed," the media simply ignored poets, even when > they said outrageous things, even things now considered "anti-American." > Few people take poets seriously, even in New Jersey, home of famous poets, > including Walt Whitman, William Carlos Williams, and Allen Ginsberg. Now, > instead of ignoring poets, more than a few Americans condemn them, > especially if the poets are Muslim and hold views contrary to the US > government -- and particularly if those "anti-American" views are > broadcast via the corporate media, from the reactionary Bill O'Reilly on > Fox News to the pages of the New York Times. > > As for Baraka's assertion that both the US and Israeli government had > prior knowledge of the September 11 attacks, there is clear, ample, and > documented evidence they most certainly did. Consider the following: > > Newsbytes reported on September 27, 2001, that employees of Odigo, an > instant messaging company in Herzliyya, Israel, received messages warning > of the attacks two hours before they occurred. Alex Diamandis, vice > president of sales and marketing for Odigo, confirmed that workers in > Israeli received the messages. The story was subsequently carried by CNN > and Ha'aretz in Israel. > > On August 11, 2001, US Navy Lt. Delmart "Mike" Vreeland, held in Toronto > on U.S. fraud charges and claiming to be an officer in U.S. Naval > intelligence, gave to Canadian authorities a sealed envelope. On September > 14, 2001, Canadian jailers open Vreeland's sealed envelope to find a > letter detailing attacks against the WTC and Pentagon. Source: The Toronto > Star, Oct. 23, 2001, and Toronto Superior Court Records. > > On September 6-7, 2001, 4,744 put options (a speculation that stock prices > will go down) are purchased on United Air Lines stock. There are only 396 > call options (speculation that the stock will go up) at the same time. > Many of the United Air Lines puts are purchased through Deutschebank/AB > Brown, a firm managed until 1998 by the current Executive Director of the > CIA, A.B. "Buzzy" Krongard. This is reported in The New York Times and The > Wall Street Journal. > > In June, 2001, German intelligence, the BND, warns the CIA and Israel that > Middle Eastern terrorists are "planning to hijack commercial aircraft to > use as weapons to attack important symbols of American and Israeli > culture." The story was reported by Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, > September 14, 2001. > > During the summer of 2001, Jordanian intelligence intercepts a > communication indicating attacks are planned on the WTC. The message is > relayed to Washington. Reported by John K. Cooley of ABC and published in > The International Herald Tribune on May 21, 2002. > > Summer 2001. Russian intelligence notifies the CIA that 25 terrorist > pilots have been specifically training for missions involving hijacked > airliners. Reported by Izvestia. > > On July 26, 2001, CBS News reports that John Ashcroft has stopped > flying commercial airlines due a threat assessment. > > In August, 2001, Russian President Vladimir Putin orders Russian > intelligence to warn the U.S. government "in the strongest possible terms" > of imminent attacks on airports and government buildings. Source: MSNBC > interview with Putin, September 15. > > Also in August, 2001, Dubya receives classified intelligence briefings at > his Crawford, Texas, ranch indicating that Osama bin Laden might be > planning to hijack commercial airliners. Reported by CBS News and CNN, May > 15, 2001. > > August through September, 2001. French intelligence services warn the FBI > of imminent attacks. These are ignored. Reported by AP, May 21, 2002. > > In the week prior to September 11, a caller to a Cayman Islands radio talk > show gave several warnings of an imminent attack on the U.S. by bin Laden. > Reported by MSNBC on September 16. > > On May 31, 2002, FBI Agent Robert Wright holds a press conference at the > National Press Club describing his lawsuit against the FBI for > deliberately curtailing investigations that might have prevented the 9/11 > attacks. He uses words like "prevented," "thwarted," "obstructed," > "threatened," "intimidated," and "retaliation" to describe the actions of > his superiors in blocking his attempts to shut off money flows to Al Qaeda > and other terrorist groups. Source: the C-SPAN website. > > (The above information provided by Jeff Chelton of the Law Party.) > > None of this, of course, was mentioned in The New York Times article on > Baraka, nor did the reactionary O'Reilly mention it when he questioned > Baraka's motives or patriotism (and also called him a "pinhead") on > Murdoch's Fox News. The New York Times, ADL, and O'Reilly are simply > providing their state assigned service -- to engender public amnesia and > divert attention from the truth surrounding 9/11 and the role played by US > intelligence and the Dubya administration. Pay no attention to the man > behind the curtain. > > Finally, the following lines of Amiri Baraka's poem should be considered > far more inflammatory and indictable by the "powers-that-be" than any > accusations of anti-Semitism put forward by the ADL: > > Who make money from war > Who make dough from fear and lies > Who want the world like it is > Who want the world to be ruled by imperialism and national oppression > and terror violence, and hunger and poverty. > > Kurt Nimmo is a photographer and multimedia developer in Las Cruces, > New Mexico. He can be reached at: nimmo@zianet.com > > > > -- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 20:41:54 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM Subject: New @ Bridge Street: Ashbery, Lorca, Rasula, Hejinian, Guest, Kenning CDs, Zukofsky, The World in its Time & Space, &&& MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for your support. Ordering & discount information at the end of this post. CHINESE WHISPERS, John Ashbery, FSG, 100 pgs cloth, $22. '"Time to go to the thoughtful house."' ARRIVAL, Sarah Anne Cox, Krupskaya, 59 pgs, $11. "the glamorous picture of the jealous god" CULTURE, Daniel Davidson, Krupkaya, $11. "I pay rent to a man of impeccable etiqutte." A GIRL'S LIFE, Johanna Drucker & Susan Bee, Granary, $24.95. "No one would be more surprised than Dawn if this Becki thing with Ivan turned out to be LOVE!" 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ACE, Tom Raworth, Edge, $10. List members receive free shipping on orders of more than $20. Free shipping + 10% discount on orders of more than $30. There are two ways to order: 1. E-mail your order to aerialedge@aol.com with your address & we will bill you with the books. or 2. via credit card-- you may call us at 202 965 5200 or e-mail aerialedge@aol.com w/ yr add, order, card #, & expiration date & we will send a receipt with the books. Pease remember to include expiration date. We must charge shipping for orders out of the US. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 04:25:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: one day's flight from the virtual world MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII one day's flight from the virtual world party that has contracted with Virtumundo. 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To unsubscribe from the Virtumundo Rewards List, visit === ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 04:33:23 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: worlds, tribly - 35 minute digital video, 3 minute digital video - MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII worlds, tribly - 35 minute digital video, 3 minute digital video - available for worlds, tribly - 85 worlds intersecting: the torus cutting across, the sparrow flitting from one to the other, the golden droplets swarming among them, the seven watching men, the doubled doubled seven watching men, the woman from the london gaiete shuddering, the second woman adding and removing dressing and corset, the man and woman swirling and watching across, the woman with the cross evolving and splitting and shuddering outward, the white stars in the blue-black sky, the yellow stars in the blue-black sky, the great fabric of being and the construct of the helices, the mouths wide open, eyes wide open, the look of astonishment and the gaze, the swollen mold and its emission, the bearded man, the torus bending and shuddering, the torus taking on the colors and patterns, the sparrow flitting, the inner and outer spaces, the backdrop spaces, the seven watching men ... the dark break the double framing window, the window embossing, the small victorian blouse, the body staring and disappearing, the serene landscape, body through the landscape, the quietening sounds, the fading out ... === ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 02:18:17 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: TEDDY WARBURG #0018 Comments: To: 7-11@mail.ljudmila.org, ImitationPoetics@listserv.unc.edu, o-o@konf.lt, webartery@yahoogroups.com, syndicate@anart.no, _arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au, owner-realpoetik@scn.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit TEDDY WARBURG atmosphere #0018 [excerpt] www.voice-of-the-village.com debbie really jealous now heart that got when leaves they were strongly con structed mechanically Murder Master panic reach supercrook himself Tomorrow men evil colonies g was said have been founded The queen and Lord Salisbury who after Lord Beaconsfield's death dressed woman chatting those Injuries which the Head liable from external defence Attica he won the confidence the for affliction injuries which had thu beensustai and this demand was enterprise Phocis was mainly pastoral large David this fructification the organization inside her clutching schoolers certain hopeless carry the please him made her feel Lorraine who discharged his task with skill Murder Master panic reach supercrook himself Tomorrow men evil moderation the acutely parents had divorced years lath century legal records the century Murder Master panic reach supercrook himself Tomorrow men evil represents collegiate reconciliation people wanted hype relationship between Tamara Wanted imply the Catholics Murder Master panic reach supercrook himself Tomorrow men evil Protestants France much possible she kerry wild eyed Pteridophyta Pteridosperms Murder Master panic reach supercrook himself Tomorrow men evil Gymnosperms people can get want through own effort Interdependent people the from his narrative Murder Master panic reach supercrook himself Tomorrow men evil you force cupped her boobs abolition clerical fellowships and integral parts his work darren's seemed Conceptacles contaning Spores Murder Master panic reach supercrook himself Tomorrow men evil strongly suggesting the document write palm my hand thumb remains Murder Master panic reach supercrook himself Tomorrow men evil made known their exact structure Cordaitales -The stood looked support embarked staff JIC prepares joint briefings maintains he was appointed took long coalition ministry had brokendown the crackle underbrush nuthin was known the Anti-Corn Law League had the countryLord with only last the feudal Deadwise not cover her breasts rubbing leg my tip her COMSEC personnel repair overhaul secure communications equipment made far richer more imposing history full contacts great events destroy equipment Montanistic crisis Even the had borne Whereas mind also gradually brought state stability the axi finds depends The cones often large size were either two p-p-parts invitationChartism the government less than much that they wiped Winkle constant Murder Master panic reach supercrook himself Tomorrow men evil stimulating the Vest the allegorical method ridden friend! its rights and determined desist from its gently cup Onderdonk from the bishopric Pennsylvania Potter Protestants Germany produced Schleiermacher Claus Harms can't stop him slipped finger into her second only fragments have been preserved His yipoviKo Employ Battle's method wish learn yourself pursued renewing the charter the Bank England afforded Sir Robert Oh! led pretty dance nearly far Albans seems Furneaux looking window Theydon's flat while Theydon going downstairs saw Chinaman watching become even more important source Now dear Richard must forgive renewing the charter the Bank England afforded Sir Robert Oh! standing cross street end garden gave enough for any person work their indeed that the relations instantly soon man realized attracted notice tried escape least Furneaux's first impression Later convinced himself supposed spy little more red herring drawn ing year project mrs johnson beautiful black stallion secretary trail man's real motive take London waylay detain some fashion manifestly impossible presence Mansions known one see now course project gather was amir and the British shoes sat back Personality Ethic role made arguments might have been provocatively caressing each want daughter arriving Eastbourne meetings the fifth forbade the training persons the nti-Jacobin -important conspirators know antsy reforms was marked that was speedily able reduce raised home continued orgasm each you deserve giddy once great military train never easy and perhaps rarely wise suddenly wednesday night hotel take measures protect explanation hidden Furneaux first glimpse vouchsafed reached office horrified learn gone strictly yourself need unless feel disposed attend regular meals knowledge desperate matter like must waste time describing she must feeling Every day children die gun wounds with foreboding said some phenomenal method reasoning competition more options parents children abandoning schools comprehension Furneaux careful him closer her they both monarchy there was much more sound conclusion suppose independence the two Dutch republics the The passage the bill ridiculous aimlessness race ing year project mrs johnson beautiful black stallion secretary country renewing the charter the Bank England afforded Sir Robert Oh! powerful speedy Chinaman thoroughly up--date conveyance too drove paying least heed traffic conditions forfeited Moreover King John ordered meetings the fifth forbade the training persons the nti-Jacobin birthday Bonaparte was making reparations vast scale for the the leading line Pericles take the place more open sinners breathing that had stopped barely had time for earlier gateway Owing pull while Lord Grey was sent the colonial got me! you've got so arisen between lie stop pain called Great Britain for is she Cardia his numerous anecdotes important despatches were sent off failed and that some new repeated other works September Owing his failing health visited England satisfaction offered Moreover the Dorian population Delphi constantly strove paused many copies were sold and the payment an indemnity for the own evil following February but Hungary was less successful John skilfully enough Araucarieae Other got good want know little more? all settled hood were found the however prove that the difficult country full --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. 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Version: 6.0.394 / Virus Database: 224 - Release Date: 10/3/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 02:22:41 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: CELIA CURTIS #0009 Comments: To: 7-11@mail.ljudmila.org, ImitationPoetics@listserv.unc.edu, o-o@konf.lt, webartery@yahoogroups.com, syndicate@anart.no, _arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au, owner-realpoetik@scn.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PENULTIMATE DYNAMIC INTERPLAY #0009 by CELIA CURTIS www.wired-paris-review.com 'I DO NOT TO SEE WINTER|GALAPAGOS => BUSY => CHAOS => TO-MORROW COMMUNICATION => ' SPEECHES TO JANE SHE HAD NOT THE JOHNSTONE => CADET => CONTAINER => THAT HER WAS HE RODE MINER => MITRE => PHYLLIS FEELER => WITH UNWILLING PENSIONS => TO THE ACCELERATION => IT AT POINTS => BOUNDARY => THEY TRANQUIL => TUBA => TO SAPROPHYTE => DEVEREUX UNABLE => RESTORED THE FEELER => JERK => CIRCUS NEON => POTTER => SEE HOW TO ISTERCOURTSMAGISTRAT => ME IF THEY MONEY|LESS SEX MORE => TO DO IT 'ONCE PAPA WHEN SHE HAD BEEN PUTTING OUT CREW => CROSSWORD => SPIDERS => SPLASH => SHE 'NOT ' EMILY WHY SHOULD HE US REGINALD FIDGETED AND SIGHED AND MAURICE GRAVER AND GRAVER AS LAWYER => OF THE WALLS BATTERED WITNESSES OF THE GRINDER => PEELER => OF THE SPEECH => DIFFICULT => AND HE EARNESTLY EXAMINED THE CORONET ON HIS MINER => MITRE => WINTER|GALAPAGOS => INCEST => MANNERISMS => 'I DO NOT MERIT => METRIC => TO HIS AFFECTED => ANGUISH => TO BUSY => CHAOS => PARALLEL|RAILWAY => HIM SO EVERGREEN => PROTHEROE HE EXCLAIMED WHAM => WHETHER => CANCEROUS => ALL THE LONGING ADJACENT => ASTONISH => TO WHAT WAS PASSING BLACKMAIL => IT SHE 'WORSE ' EMILY 'I RESPOND => ALL THE CHEMICAL => MEDICAL => ONES TO THE RACES ' HENRY EXPLAINING IN HIS IDIOMS HE THEN DOUBTFUL => ON THE CRUEL => DEATH => AXIS => GERMAN => THE MUSICS ARE OF BEECHCROFT AND GETTING SLURP => SNAILS => OF SAL-VOLATILE FOR EMILY MINER => MITRE => THEY LAUGHING OF WOULD THEM LEAVERS => SWEETS => THAT THEY HAD PROFITED SO TABLETS => UNTO => BY THEIR PARROTLIONTAMER => MISS WESTON YOU TO WITH ME HOSTEL => A CLAWS => CLIFFS => WAS BURNING JANE ATTRACTED BY ITS SHE STEADILY AT MARKING ELEANOR HANDKERCHIEFS UNTIL SHE TOPICAL|OKAY => HIM HE HOW WE SHOULD SLOTH => SLOVENLY => WITHOUT YOU ROTHERWOOD INSISTS ON UNABLE => TUFF AND IT IS HYACINTH => MOVIES => NEWTON => THAT YOU HAVE NOT KILLED ADA CANCEROUS => THAT HER WAS GIVERBLOODANONYMOUS => --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.394 / Virus Database: 224 - Release Date: 10/3/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 09:12:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mdw Subject: inside/outside the academy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey Mark Ducharme: Are you sure I don't go so far as a "direct call for action"? I thought "Maintain the possibility of an outside" was pretty clear cut. Still, I agree, it's precisely the interrelation between academic and non-academic contexts that I'm discussing, and the fact that the differences are not clear cut. But my sense is that the power dynamic is shifting, much too heavily, in the direction of academic control--and as Tom Bell says, its underlying power, money, of the U.S. capitalist variety--although as Gary points out, maybe it depends partly on where you live and work. I'm all for speaking about the value of the small presses, and for lauding what they do. And I'm actually all for the continued work of non-mainstream poets inside the academy. But to say, "Look at the great things going on!"--true as it is--doesn't, I think, adequately address how power works WITHIN the context of contemporary non-mainstream poetries. Mark Wallace ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 07:50:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: Re: inside/outside the academy In-Reply-To: <004301c27afc$5795fd70$9da45e0c@ghostf430> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Ray Bianchi Wrote: I Reply: I wish I could understand what motivates the sort of thought expressed above. It's wrong in its assumption (somehow being an academic isn't a "job"), and in its question. Academics have no greater or lesser ability to be innovative than do poets who follow different career paths. There is some talk about what looking at student papers (and poems) might do to a poet's ability to think clearly . . . but the same could be said for working, where, a bank maybe? Or driving a bus . . . really this kind of thinking is of the same sort George Bush likes to trot out . . . you know, who's really American, that sort of thing. The examples don't support any of these assumptions or accusations. (Just a couple/few current academics for you: Susan Howe. Maxine Chernoff. Cole Swensen. The list goes on.) =JG ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 06:30:20 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Arielle Greenberg Subject: Re: women in The New American Poetry In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mairead wrote: > > In what sense was Plath the darling of "the > young women who had > conventional dreams"? Who were these women? In > what way did their > conventional dreams impact on editors? To which I say, brava! I suppose *I* am one of those young women with conventional dreams for whom Plath has always been a model...because as an American woman, it's SOOOO conventional to want to be a brilliant, famous, influential poet and mother all at the same time, to do it while you're young, to dedicate your life to work that is raw and powerful, to make tough decisions around career and life that benefit your art. I mean, so many women do that every day, right? It's gotta be the simplest, most normal, conventional thing in the world. Arielle (who will now go back to being placid) __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 06:47:54 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: Re: women in The New American Poetry In-Reply-To: <200210101936.g9AJa2i19376@buckpalace.concentric.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > And I also > >assume that poetic polarizations made someone like Plath > unfeasible (so > >that, while someone might argue that she *should* have been > there, no one > >could really argue that she *could* have under the > circumstances, besides > >which its a little early for her too). Okay, speak. Thanks, Kasey--provocative post, as always. Now I finally get to ask about something that's been bothering me for decades. Almost the last thing in Wieners's 1964 _Ace of Pentacles_ is the poem "The Suicide." In that book, it's a two-part poem, and it ends very strangely, with a comma: Clay cannot create her features nor mirror reveal her mouth Photograph not show her form full with self, so put away her picture from the shelf And turn instead to living woman on the couch, decked with flowers as if it were she laid out, and not Sylvia, in the woods, But who is Sylvia? Did Wieners cross (Boston) paths with Plath, who of course died in 1963, the year before the book is published? He seems to throw some light on this in the poem's first section: "Yes, earth owns the wind / As I her life / Whom I have never seen / Nor been with / Still within our hearts there lies / this communion / of all that dies / we held in common / because without it // we become more common than the dust." By the time _Ace of Pentacles_ is reprinted in the Black Sparrow _Selected_ (1986), the odd but haunting comma has been replaced by a period. Was it just a typo? And what had been the next to last poem in _Ace of Pentacles_, "Address to the Woman," becomes the third part of "The Suicide, " which now ends: Tell her that may not speak again Her words are warnings in the wood. Those lines read pretty resonantly as the sixties wore on. So, does anyone know? Rachel Loden http://www.thepomegranate.com/loden/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 10:15:23 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: a model non-academic press? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi again, Mark, >it's precisely the interrelation between academic and non-academic >contexts that I'm discussing, and the fact that the differences >are not clear cut. But my sense is that the power dynamic is shifting, much >too heavily, in the direction of academic control I was thinking about this on the train in to work this morning, and it occurred to me that one of the most interesting projects of the last 5-10 years, w/respect to its relationship to the academy, and in fact especially with how much it has (figuratively speaking) wrested from academic control, let's say, is Steve Clay's Granary Books. Granary of course has published the criticism of the work of a few academics, most notably Johanna Drucker. Some great books--largely relating to a realm not yet fully recognized by the academy (artists' books). There's also The Book of the Book, Charles' interview with David Antin, and so on. But maybe most significantly for this discussion, Steve has begun a project involving the publishing of *literary history*, which I think has always tended to be published by the academy. I mean, he's really given this back to the poets. A Secret Location on the Lower East Side is an amazing example of this--and not only did it mean that all of those magazines and presses were made "legitimate," given value, for a larger audience (and through the frames of the poets who created that history), but Steve also made sure that collections of those books wound up in the New York Public Library & in numerous other collections. Just out, of course, is another volume along these lines: Guy Bennett & Béatrice Mousli's, Charting the Here of There: French & American Poetry in Translation in Literary Magazines, 1850?2002. Steve isn't independently wealthy. These books are made possible in part through the sales of artists' books that he's published and sells to collectors, and very large collections of rare books that he buys from other collectors (mostly poets) and then I think resells to other collectors and/or libraries. He's brilliant, I think, and more to the point, he's really working to support poets working both outside and inside the academy, in a way that I think takes the control from the academy (if they indeed had it) and puts it into the hands of the poets he's supporting. I shouldn't probably mention Swoon, because of my obvious personal investment in that book--but I'm incredibly grateful to Steve for putting it out--and I don't know why I wasn't thinking about this yesterday, but it's a book largely of Nada & my poetics. Neither of us have really spent much of our time writing up our poetics, but like many poets, we do talk about it at least casually, and much of that discussion wound up in the book, in such a way that the poems become completely embedded in their very specific historical context. Jack Kimball of course is beginning to do things along these lines--that really great memoir of Tony Towle's--again an instance of a poet being alowed to present his/her own history--was written because Jack thought to approach Tony about doing such a book. Think too of the collections he facillitated on his eastvillage site--mini geographically situated anthologies--of NYC, LA, Boston. That I've been particularly fortunate to have some involvement in the above probably accounts for my admittedly unabashed enthusiasm/optimism w/respect to a poet's situation vis-a-vis larger structures of power. But one could look at this activity and be *inspired* by it. Use these instances as models or inspiration for future projects. There's no reason, for instance, that I couldn't decide one day to put together a history or memoir of San Francisco in the 80s, say. And use my own press Detour to put it out. I think the DC website, actually, is another amazing project along these lines--I don't know if the historical stuff there was started by Jen and Allison or if it was Tom Orange or who was initially involved in that, but I actually go there quite frequently; I think it's great. It could easily be developed into a book. Anyway. Totally overposting. Nada said I should just start a blog and shut up on Poetics. (She didn't say it that meanly.) She's right! _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 10:45:08 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Chinese wall MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Thanks to Stephen Ellis, who in response to my query (poetics, what's that) directed me to Aristotle. If I recall correctly Aristotle investigated what the physical effect of drama and poetry was on its audience and how they achieved that effect. I believe Mark was referring not to that kind of investigation but to a more prescriptive genre-blurring discourse that intends simultaneously to achieve to theorize and to ratify a mental effect on its audience. I also believe that that idealized discourse has been abandoned not only by the non-academic presses, but by those best equipped to generate it. In its place we have a terminally nerdy cascade of proper names, groupings, and anthology tables-of-contents. The tale of the tribe will always be part of what we need to hear. But maybe this avant-garde is fighting the last war against an official verse culture. Accountants and consultants sent out by the same dispatcher are going to forget which hat they're wearing. The idealized discourse is getting you down! Let it go. Write reviews. Write poems. Look again at Code of Signals, Call Me Ishmael. Write a book called My Susan Howe and send it to Ron Silliman. Let go of the proper names and the anthology page counts. That's my plan anyway, that and to subscribe to a magazine or two (finally). Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 09:37:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Rejected posting to In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > > >oy. she's a reeeeaaally bad poet. > >At 9:21 AM -0700 10/10/02, Catherine Daly wrote: >>Margaret Randall > > >-- -- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 09:45:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: poetics not published by academic presses In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" okay, time for me to be the unbearable philistine again...i actually got a lot out of the artist's way, and i've bought a bunch of those other books --i haven't read them, but, to put it in non-philistine terms, the "sociology of poetry" interests me --i *like* it that people are trying to turn other people on to poetry. some could say that the book i co-authored, The Secret Life of Words,is a dumbing down of poetic experimentalism (i wrote it w/ someone who specializes in educational publishing and it was pitched to the mainstream). At 1:36 PM -0700 10/10/02, Damian Judge Rollison wrote: >Ditto on the Koch book, o Aaron of the sexy voice -- it's >on the same shelf in Barnes & Noble as Oliver, Pinsky (not >that terrible, actually), Hirsch (yech), and all those >other books about how poetry is a spirit dance for your >inner iron john or johanna, but it's just exactly the >opposite thing: a non-condescending, down-to-earth >introduction/invitation, on par with his great books about >teaching poetry to children. > >Damian > > >On Thu, 10 Oct 2002 15:04:26 -0500 Aaron Belz > wrote: > >> > every silly how to write or how to write poetry book there is -- >> > fussel, hollander, ciardi, poemcrazy, writing down the bones, bird by >> > bird, the writing life, the artists way -- my students seem to insist on >> > it. I try to treat it like having to scan yucky not-about-business >> > books like how to negotiate anything or dale carnegie or toastmasters, >> > but, in fact, it just makes me mean. >> >> >> Catherine, >> >> I hope you're not including Kenneth Koch's _Making Your Own Days_ in this >> mini-rant. I used it in a class this spring, and it was in no wise a >> "how-to" book; it's part anthology, part Kochian wisdom, all very great. I >> agree that most "You too can write poems" books make "real" poets grumpy, >> but Koch's is not among those. Take a look at it. Use it in your >> workshop. >> >> Aaron >> >> >> p.s. Why am I still receiving emails from this list? I tried to >> unsubscribe yesterday; does anyone know how to unsubscribe? Please >> backchannel, and thanks, you're a dear. >> >> p.p.s. If anyone who was too shy to call me on my telephone wants to hear >> my voice (it's very sexy), you can hear me read a poem on NPR's "Here and >> Now" tomorrow at noon EST. Well, the show begins at noon, but the poetry >> segment (feature "roving poet" Jim Behrle) is near the end of the show. >> (Correct me if I'm wrong, Jim.) If your NPR doesn't get this show, you can >> do like i do and tune in at http://www.wbur.org >> >> [Now get me offa here, gods of unsubscription!] > ><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< >damian judge rollison >department of english >university of virginia > djr4r@virginia.edu > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 08:10:05 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: Re: women in The New American Poetry In-Reply-To: <200210101936.g9AJa2i19376@buckpalace.concentric.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > But Plath? She was the darling of the academic poets and the young > women who had conventional dreams. we knew that she represented the > other side, where Robert Lowell and Ted Hughs had set up camp. Some darling she turned out to be, eh? George, did you follow her work as the "conventional dreams" went rather spectacularly awry? If you did, perhaps you found it wanting. . . . The Ostrobothnians (in the wild west of Finland) have a saying: "I am from us, and the rest are from elsewhere." Maybe that's the problem with camps--they're a brilliant marketing device, and a whole hell of a lot of tribal-bonding other-bashing territory-marking fun. But they also have an unfortunate side-effect, if and when they keep us from reading our enemies. Which is why I think it's crazy-wonderful that Berrigan read Wilbur, or Wieners quoted Auden (as he did). What about Eliot. Whose darling was he? And yet we read him, don't we? A proud magpie, and descended from magpies, Rachel ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 11:24:11 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mdw Subject: inside/outside the academy (oops, part 2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry to send an unfinished message before--thought I'd hit "Draft" but must have hit "Send." In any case, Mark, I think your suggestions re reviews are exactly pertinent, and would make a difference in the way that you suggest--a greater awareness and acting on that awareness always helps. And I think that Gary's precise delineation of non-academic institutions and the role they play is also very much to the point (and I appreciate his recognition that such places ARE institutions--after all, it's not as though outside the academic world, there are no problems of hierarchy and access to resources). And I agree too with Joe that a precise sociological description would help, although I'd have to worry, obviously, about the terms in which such a sociology could be couched. All I would add, because I think I've said what I have to say on this and at this point it may be obvious, is that the relationship between non-mainstream poetries and the academic context is always changing. When we assume, by defintion, that they're enemies of each other, or we assume by definition that they are, can be, or should be mutually supportive, we tend to overlook the specific nature of the changes actually occuring--changes that to my mind, lately, seem like a growing imbalance of power. Review a small press book this year, and hang around where you're not wanted-- Mark Wallace ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 11:49:11 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Craig Allen Conrad Subject: Waldrop, Warsh, McCreary celebrate SINGING HORSE PRESS! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Before I get into the upcoming event, let me briefly mention the latest Singing Horse title, published by our sage Gil Ott. Chris McCreary's THE EFFACEMENTS, flip the book over it becomes Jenn McCreary's A DOCTRINE OF SIGNATURES. $12.50, available through http://www.spdbooks.org The unique cover of crisp greens and white makes an immediate impact to get you harvesting beyond its rush of black and white photographs. Don't make my mistake of reading a Chris poem, flipping the book to read a Jenn poem, and so on. These two books within a book deserve full attention to their separate tones of arrangement. Hold it! I really don't mean for this to become a book review, so let me end now by saying that recently a poet said of the McCrearys being the Waldrops of our generation. Okay, I can see why this is said, and although it seems flattering, such comparisons are simply lazy, spiritless suggestions which ultimately take AWAY FROM the power of those in question. I'd rather say the McCrearys are the McCrearys of my generation, and they're separate and together among the BEST we've got! Buy their fantastic new book and figure it yourself! NOW for the SINGING HORSE PRESS anniversary celebration! NOT TO BE MISSED! October 27th, 2002 Sunday, 3:00 pm Readings and reception with book signing celebrating Singing Horse Press' 26th anniversary of publishing. Painted Bride Art Center 230 Vine Street Philadelphia Poets reading for the event: Rosmarie Waldrop Lewis Warsh Chris McCreary Admission: $10. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 10:11:22 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: inside/outside the academy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hey Mark Wallace et. al., I do see a "call to action" of sorts in your "Maintain the possibility of an outside," & perhaps more in your (I'm paraphrasing from memory) attend to poets outside, not because they're better, but because they MIGHT be. Yet I felt if you left it at just that, then the overall "message" is that it sucks & there's not much we can do about it. This is not the way I want to feel about it, clearly this is not how Gary wants to (or does) feel about it, & this is not the way I want the list as a whole, including you, to feel about it. So I did want to bring up more specific things that we can do. I am also glad that the issue of money has been brought up. I had wanted to ask for instance, what specifically we mean by "poetic success"-- which is (as I see it) a can of worms, & yesterday I felt I had already wasted too much time writing what I did, so I didn't want to get into that as well. But, yes, success (even of the cultural capitalistic variety) in this society often comes down to money, even if only in indirect ways (e.g., the "prestige" [read: wealth] of the institution you profess for, graduated from, etc.). I know that you are all for supporting small presses, & again, I was not trying to suggest otherwise. And it ~is~ also important that nonmainstream poets can & do work inside the academy. I even agree that "to say, 'Look at the great things going on!'--true as it is--doesn't... adequately address how power works WITHIN the context of contemporary non-mainstream poetries." However I'd like to turn this question back to you (or to anyone out there)-- frankly, because I think it's an important question, & I don't know the answer myself: how CAN the workings of power within institutional contexts BE addressed, in a way that advances nonmainstream poetries. Now you're gonna say this is a rhetorical question, & sure, it is, in the sense that I don't expect there to BE one answer, or certainly not any simple, clear-cut one. Perhaps in fact there isn't any answer, though more likely I think the answers are to be found on a case-by-case basis. But I ask this, not naively, because I think it's important for us to think about (or to think about in broader terms-- because it's not like most of us haven't thought of it already, in specific reference to ourselves or to the work we're promoting). Finally (because this is becoming much longer than I had intended)-- there seems to be some question about what poetics is. Without falling back on Aristotle (who, you're right Jordan, had a different sense of the word than we would today), I would say that to me to me it's simple. When a poet writes about artistic principles (to sound Poundian for a minute), &/or writes about the work of other poets in a way that sheds light on both the other poets' work as well as the poetic ideas of the person writing, then that is poetics. That is what I see in the great essays by Pound, Williams, Stein, Zukofsky, Riding, Olson, Creeley, as well as all those essays & books by the Language poets. That is what I try to do when I write essays, and that is what I see in the best essays by contemporaries (including Mark, and including Chris Stroffolino whom I'm glad someone mentioned, Kristin Prevallet, Julianna Spahr, many others). For a while it seemed like poetics essays were going to play a more vital role for poets who are now, let's say, in their 40s & younger. There used to be lively, low-budget magazines like Witz & Poetic Briefs, but those died out. To some extent they were replaced by web journals like Gary's _readme_ (which I hear is also on its way out). But really I think the energy toward writing essays has been dissipated, at least to an extent, by blogs (in Ron Silliman's & others' cases), & by the conversation, at its best, that goes on on this list. In some ways that immediacy is an advantage, in other ways a distraction. Certainly ~this~ is a conversation, I think, that bears out the value of this list, despite its distractions. Mark DuCharme >From: mdw >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: inside/outside the academy >Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 09:12:34 -0400 > >Hey Mark Ducharme: > >Are you sure I don't go so far as a "direct call for action"? I thought >"Maintain the possibility of an outside" was pretty clear cut. Still, I >agree, >it's precisely the interrelation between academic and non-academic contexts >that I'm discussing, and the fact that the differences are not clear cut. >But >my sense is that the power dynamic is shifting, much too heavily, in the >direction of academic control--and as Tom Bell says, its underlying power, >money, of the U.S. capitalist variety--although as Gary points out, maybe >it >depends partly on where you live and work. I'm all for speaking about the >value of the small presses, and for lauding what they do. And I'm actually >all >for the continued work of non-mainstream poets inside the academy. But to >say, >"Look at the great things going on!"--true as it is--doesn't, I think, >adequately address how power works WITHIN the context of contemporary >non-mainstream poetries. > >Mark Wallace <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'A sentence thinks loudly.' -—Gertrude Stein http://www.pavementsaw.org/cosmopolitan.htm http://www.angelfire.com/poetry/subpress/soc.htm _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 09:29:17 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Corbett Subject: Re: inside/outside the academy In-Reply-To: <004301c27afc$5795fd70$9da45e0c@ghostf430> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Dana Gioia has a day job and he is no experimentalist. Can we just lay to the rest the bogus equation that being an academic = sell out? For a day or two...from where I sit (finishing PhD student in British literature), to have a job outside of academia is to "sell out," so I kinda find this talk adolescent for a number of reasons. what should be sold out is the rhetoric of selling out. Robert -- Robert Corbett "I will discuss perfidy with scholars as rcor@u.washington.edu as if spurning kisses, I will sip Department of English the marble marrow of empire. I want sugar University of Washington but I shall never wear shame and if you call that sophistry then what is Love" - Lisa Robertson On Wed, 23 Oct 2002, Ray Bianchi wrote: > there are some of us who work in jobs and write poetry I wonder how people > can be academics are be truly innovative? Are there any others on the > "wallace stevens" plan out there > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Pam Brown" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 8:35 PM > Subject: inside/outside the academy > > > > Hello Poeticists, > > I'll probably sound a bit off-topic here but I > > thought most poets who work as academics do it > > more-than-partly because, usually, there's no salary > > paid for writing poetry. > > Cheerio from Pam Brown --- mdw wrote: > > > I agree with Joe Amato that Andrew Rothman's notion > > > that the most daring > > > poetry must come from the outside is relentlessly > > > romantic and more than a > > > little out of date. > > > > > > That said, I think that Joe and Maria's defense of > > > how poetry CAN take place > > > along the seams, let's say, of academic life--an > > > argument I myself have often > > > made--feels less and less adequate to my sense of > > > contemporary poetic > > > circumstances. > > > > > > The problem, as I see it, is not that daring poetry > > > MUST come from outside the > > > academic context. The problem is that it's > > > increasingly--not absolutely, > > > increasingly--impossible for ANY poetry to come from > > > outside the academic > > > context. > > > > > > I'm not saying that there aren't many great poets > > > who are not academics, by > > > any means--we have a bunch here in DC, people like > > > Heather Fuller, Rod Smith, > > > Buck Downs. But the problem is that such poets can > > > be to a greater and greater > > > degree simply ignored, beyond the local environment. > > > Again, not absolutely. > > > But more and more so. > > > > > > It was possible, perhaps even through the 70s? the > > > 80s? for poets to establish > > > significant profiles as poets by publishing, their > > > whole lives, entirely in > > > the small presses and small magazines. But at best, > > > now, such poets receive > > > marginal attention, if any at all. > > > > > > So, sure, poetry can be written outside the academic > > > world, and sure, it can > > > be written inside the academic world. I find both > > > those points true, if a > > > little obvious, since poetry has an amazing ability > > > to be written under ANY > > > circumstances. But the increasing hegemony of > > > academic production means that, > > > these days, increasingly, academic success=poetic > > > value, in the short run > > > anyway (who knows what of this poetry will survive? > > > does it matter to us?). > > > Non-academic poets are second rate citizens at best, > > > if they're allowed any > > > cache as citizens at all. > > > > > > My challenge then is this: more attention needs to > > > be paid to poets who are > > > not part of the academic machine, or who are more > > > marginally part of it, not > > > because they're better, but just because, you know, > > > they MIGHT be. > > > > > > I'd love to see a list of poets you like, right now, > > > who are not primarily top > > > shelf academics. Let's discuss their work at least > > > for once. > > > > > > Maintain the possibility of, sometimes, stepping > > > outside-- > > > > > > Mark Wallace > > > > ===== > > Web site/P.Brown - http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Workshop/7629/ > > > > http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger for SMS > > - Always be connected to your Messenger Friends > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 09:44:11 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: >> > >> > >> PLEASE FORWARD & > >> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v546) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> > >> > >> PLEASE FORWARD & > >> No really. Call me the front lawn stiff. > >>call me excelling=86 "or = a")=20 as some may in mailboxes...the real porcupine > >> "What if I'm=20 knitting legs of tape. boxes of jinxs? a publis sevices. true blue=20 tubbers?>> Its > the to ma[n]y >>the > a>a > other prime time=20 Subject=86:=86: it=92s whos =93A Mystery=94: it=92s whosss a = collaboration, =20 whos the merely > >> whos From=86:=86"))))" > >> > who will step over = the=20 accom[p]animet>> who will stop the>be a maniac landfill >> whos broad=20= band could be the :: > >> even the most fruitful -----Not really. Call=20= me the path alla mimickin=ED / a > the >to many>two slashes > three=20 marks and a later>> you/ve got a > >> high pitched? infinitedly regressice?=20 rigressive, ()&resistan{cP{e+*&future=A0progressive& Standard =20 Superintendent? coming in loud and##%!`~~ voice at > >> as a > in=20 time for > full > prolific, reproductive magic.mutiplied by ,-0=3D=3D=3D0= 0=20 -take warning > >> =86:=86: Fwd: Fast Fwd:yellow =86.=86 Leg of = call-me-a-=20 sort-a-[of](pick-me-up)-dropme off ---- part of the Original Message=20 Follows---- > >> forwarded) > >> no choice > >> two slashes > >> > >>=20 "full time anxiety > >> I=92ve heard> >> behind the Subject=86:=86 IN = the=20 Subject I found them as >_____ > lovers quarrels> Subject{S}=86:=86: t = >=20 >> professional asa parrot > >> > >> I found them=86 stilts in the=20 erratic > >> : following me me the Subject. Calling me Subject.=20 Calling me & ishmael.? I turn(ed} to feel__ it was surly a/the morofthe big -o- = switcherroo.=20 Someone please told me hold me& > in their>> Personality switch to,=20 (*&^^%"Which is why they=EDre, we, someone-- only a thought, (*)(_( = that=20 big mistake. as it were, to follow, has followed, in its but who knew=20 and nevermind the > >> -=86300ooo00+ times slot?=86 in one time of > = many=20 >> since -- Goodbye, > >> > >> Christ. Did all occult memorabilia and=20= the place, > >> the everlasting the left behind ?:? has made me.=86=20= again this=86st > >> To=86:=86@hotmail.com@@@ me.com > ground brushing = -=20 me. always you do ))(&@ I'm yellow. I'm knitting curious millions. =20 You aren -t either 393, 55:gb, or ### JUST THE )*&&W$!@ IN others=20 +?<=93| the message=86=86 > >>the -- > >> Date=86:=86, 4theOutside . > = >> a in=20 side training > >>a yellow shirt > >> > >> ?:?"" > >> a=3Dsunbeam. As=20= in the a big mistake in order > >> sin in no in sin in I'm late I say=20 //.0@ & agian > >> From=86:=86 "" > >> > : nurse - Wheres the > >>the=20= definite > >> > >>@@ @.com, > edge ) > twittering something "?"__ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 09:49:47 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Corbett Subject: Towards a New Positivity: Errant Hopes and Foolish Desires MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII (for Jordan Davis & Jim Behrle) this is an idea (god, that sounds pretentious, but whatever...): how about poetry junk mail? a monthly mass mailing of a poem on a broadside. (relatively decent paper, with some visual candy). this is a country-wide version of poetry on the bus. what is it that we are surrounded by, but those random missives from the outside vendors, wanting to welcome us into their happy fold of customers. i bet one could generate a database of a a million names and leaflet our towns and cities. say, anyone who submits a poem to a journal or magazine automatically gets listed. underlying assumption is that what be sent is unjustly obscure american poets. maybe a reproduction of Dickinson fascicle. maybe some poetic obscurantism by Emerson, but i myself would start with Stein. (for today, i am actually thinking of Creeley's "I know a man"). thence to Williams. thence to Zukofsky. the names and faces can change: the point to get poetry under people's noses and not over their heads. Robert -- Robert Corbett "I will discuss perfidy with scholars as rcor@u.washington.edu as if spurning kisses, I will sip Department of English the marble marrow of empire. I want sugar University of Washington but I shall never wear shame and if you call that sophistry then what is Love" - Lisa Robertson ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 12:51:35 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ian Randall Wilson Subject: More of the Academy Thread MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Let's expand that to "literary and poetic value," and let's acknowledge the the sales figures on Amazon can be "influenced" with a few key buys. When my story collection came out in 2000, after a mass mailing, I had about 60 sales in a hour which jumped the book from 1,000,000 in the rankings to 1,200. Didn't that feel glorious -- for half a day. [Amazon sales ranking, author, title, price] 425,025 Ian Randall Wilson Hunger and Other Stories $12.95 1,054,136 Ian Randall Wilson, Ed. 88: A Journal of Contemporary American Poetry (Issue 1) $13.95 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 10:25:42 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: variety pack post In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT 1) actually Gioia quit his day job in New Jersey (his wife and he ran the Roerich Museum readings) and moved back west (he went to Stanford undergrad, I think) right before he wrote a series of polemics, opera reviews, and translations in an attempt to make his poetry and related writing pay (which it now does) -- tho he doesn't teach, I don't know that he has a day job [oddly, a few poets have tried to turn to film noir rather than opera to try to make this work, and it doesn't] the battle over the Wallace Stevens legacy being sort of a bellweather for the poetry wars in general -- I think it is Al Filreis' book which tracks Stevens' career -- I thought he was an EVP who hitched his star to the eventual chairman early on -- and then stayed until retirement 2) just send something to the styles already; I did -- it was about fashion, from a series of poems and prose poems which are not anecdotes about "moments that changed my life" -- the editor writes the little bios based on the letters / e-mails exchanged along with submission 3) Are Margaret Randall's NYC Beat period writings available? -- I really don't know -- I remember a scrap of something unfortunate about giants' tears -- but I do wonder at her 45 years of sustained and changing writing "outside" and certainly have open questions about the applicability of "standards" of "quality" applied to poetry in The New American Poetry as we prepare for World Standards Day (which is on our Columbus Day this year) and the implementation of codes for names of languages, are we going to do some big ISO 9000 certification on this puppy? what are the processes which resulted in first the poets, then the poems, and then anthology inclusion? if we re-engineer these processes, will the NAP Redux anthology, now independent of Donald Allen and perhaps independent of poet poets but not trained employees acting as poets (are they poets?), be more efficient? will it have more "quality"? Be well, Catherine Daly cadaly@pacbell.net Judson Jerome, THE POET'S HANDBOOK "(Remember, in "Skunk Hour," ..."my mind's not right"? what a blockbuster that was!) The fashion of "confessional" poetry was in vogue for a decade. This is cocktail party culture. The resulting poetry does not reach and has no concern for ordinary readers." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 11:58:07 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: derek beaulieu Subject: an Assembling invitation Comments: To: smallpress listserv , elaine & jason esteban MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable PLEASE CIRCULATE FREELY: this is an open invitation to contribute to=20 5'9" an assembled magazine whereby every page is created in an edition of 30 copies by the = contributors and then gather and bound (every 30 contributors). contributions can be multiples, rubberstamp, handprinted, painted, = collaged, or anything else (use your imagination). there is no = restriction on subject matter. every contributor will receive a copy of = the edition in which they appear. GENERAL 5'9" GUIDELINES:=20 1) Produce your own image in an edition of 30 copies. 2) Size: 5 1/2 by 8 1/2 inches. 2D or 3D images accepted. 3) Sign & Date the images (if applicable) 4) send all 30 copies to: "5'9": an assembling" 1339 19th ave nw = calgary alberta canada t2m 1a5 PLEASE CIRCULATE FREELY & INTERNATIONALLY ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 14:52:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nick Piombino Subject: Inside/outside the academy Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > Ultimately, > poets inside or outside > of the academy need all the help they can get, from wherever they can get > it. > > Vernon > > > Poetics... I have a strong feeling none of the books I've listed satisfy > the unarticulated definition of *poetics.* What's poetics? > > Jordan My favorite use of the term is for naming any process by which poets discuss, define and explicate their own art as here on this list. But I've been contemplating a new term for what has frequently occurred here of late (not on this thread): "Slam Poetics." Nick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 15:41:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: acasubdominant Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > >At 01:20 PM 10/10/2002 -0600, you wrote: >>mark, gary, catherine, andrew, aldon, jeffrey, maria, others, >> >>one of the problems right off has to do with the way "poetry" is >>being segmented in contradistinction e.g. to prose... we *could* >>say, for all intents and purposes, that exp. prose is treated much >>the same as poetry, and therefore enjoys the same problematic >>relationship with academe... > >Others may disagree, but it has been my experience that "experimental" >prose finds more ready admission to syllabi and class rooms than does >"experimental" verse, but "experimental" prose writers are if anything even >less likely to get hired in creative writing programs than "experimental" >poets -- > >which, I realize, is rather like saying it's easier for a Lutheran to >become Pope than a Baptist -- > > ><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >"The university professes the truth, and that is its profession. It >declares and promises an unlimited commitment to the truth." > Jacques Derrida (Without Alibi 202) > >Aldon Lynn Nielsen >George and Barbara Kelly Professor of American Literature >Department of English >The Pennsylvania State University >116 Burrowes >University Park, PA 16802-6200 > >(814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 12:58:54 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: women in The New American Poetry In-Reply-To: <20021011133020.60997.qmail@web11307.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > to >dedicate your life to work that is raw Is there some kind of oxymoron here? -- George Bowering Has a shock of brown hair. Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 13:07:10 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: women in The New American Poetry In-Reply-To: <000201c27138$4b97c4e0$27000140@Glasscastle> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > > But Plath? She was the darling of the academic poets and the young >> women who had conventional dreams. we knew that she represented the >> other side, where Robert Lowell and Ted Hughs had set up camp. > >Some darling she turned out to be, eh? George, did you follow her work >as the "conventional dreams" went rather spectacularly awry? > >If you did, perhaps you found it wanting. . . . Well, what I picked up was Sylvia saying I feel terrible; therefore it is a terrible world. I think that HD was the best poem-maker in the US till 1961. She too wrote about her own situation, but she wrote through the imagination rather than the self-regard that says this ought to get them whimpering. -- George Bowering Has a shock of brown hair. Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 16:16:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: own face MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Nick - "any process by which poets discuss, define and explicate their own art" This sounds like self-analysis a la Karen Horney. It also reminds me of Norman Mailer's parody of Whitman: Advertisements for myself. I realize (thanks to a remarkable essay by Susan Schultz on list owner Charles Bernstein in Issue 14 of Jacket) that self-presentation is an issue poets would be wise to attend to. And as I've had kindly pointed out to me by Rod Smith, I wouldn't want to go messing with any poet's prerogative to swerve from sense to nonsense and back. I wouldn't want to ask anyone to justify any particular bout of abstract ear. My concern: we valorize the capacity to say whatever comes into our heads or out through our pens keyboards mouths. In therapy, though, free association is often (productively) followed by the question, so what are you saying there, or by the therapist's abstraction from the subject's words. The goal doesn't have to be a marketable consistency of self, by any means. By any means necessary. (The Audubon now has an X Caffe, by the way.) There doesn't even need to be agreement on the goal, for there to be a definition of poetics. I admit that although I'm more interested in understanding art in general than my art in particular, I do keep a blog for my observations on forms that I explode over and over like a poorly-supervised eighth grader. (Backchannel for details.) Now, having advertised myself, I mention my concern that the idealized discourse that I suggested before could be let go without real damage to our writing selves imposes a feedback loop -- writing while justifying the writing in genre-blurring writing... don't get me wrong, I think Yo La Tengo went a little soft after Electr-o-Pura (ok after President!), but feedback also needs to be understood. Poetics, essays, projective Olsonian criticism, rhapsodism, are they serving understanding or are they carrying understanding away. Headline in the Onion: Gambling-Addiction study getting out of hand. Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 16:19:58 -0400 Reply-To: ksilem@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ksilem@MINDSPRING.COM Subject: whutz poetix? > Poetics... I have a strong feeling none of > the books I've listed satisfy > the unarticulated definition of *poetics.* > What's poetics? > > Jordan I like Nick's answer about the process by which we define, explicate, etc. our practice. I think there's also a prescriptive or evaluative element involved: an explicit or implicit imperative. How about we all come up with our own one-sentence prescriptive poetics, as basic and economical (and maybe incendiary) as we can make it? Here's mine: "A poem should be interesting as language and in at least one other way." K. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 16:30:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: schwartzgk Subject: Re: women in The New American Poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Raw as life is more than we can handle -- at least now. It is the handle. Gerald Schwartz awaiting fish-fry of yellow pike ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Bowering" To: Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 3:58 PM Subject: Re: women in The New American Poetry > > to > >dedicate your life to work that is raw > > Is there some kind of oxymoron here? > -- > George Bowering > Has a shock of brown hair. > Fax 604-266-9000 > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 21:28:27 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lakey Teasdale Subject: and The net traces on the windows Comments: To: "WRYTING-L : Writing and Theory across Disciplines" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable and The net traces on the windows they left the houses. The distance of sea being so near. Sewn across like The earlier settlements the war torn. The ships sunk almost the war torn. The war in shreds. Like tinsel. but never abandoned. Unless such, unless certain steps taken=20 they have taken the=20 toys. The trinkets the the gold chains of war. the trinkets. The gold Only later much later we learned of the gardens=20 the past. The two children, the white birds the night sky.=20 the night sky. and vardens that moaned and howled. The gardens=20 the dread. That and said This is the wild hunt. In between you see ordinary. The mortals, the toil. One common, uncommon. the uncommon thread. The thread of that spot after sunset. The spectral and birds. The howl. cry. and the half of the two towmales of Goir, with the whole house of Hagar conjunct fiars, with consent of and for Of course now. The spirits seemed to have faded. perhaps it is the light. Everyone notices. It is restless the war torn. The war in shreds. Like tinsel. an' pickan' lempeds i' the ebb=20 an dan again geed chust geed=20 ower a muckle rock. The shock. the shock the fleet sunk. the men drowned. the varden The thread of that spot after sunset. The spectral birds. The howl. the cry. the whale killed in the Bay of Holland a bloody business making and living. The tides making your living besides the forgotten. The war the war torn. The war in shreds. Like tinsel. The shock. the shock the fleet sunk. the men drowned. the varden the varden that howls and cries. The varden the lives. The war torn. and the distance. The distance of sea being sea. And the distance of see being sea. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 16:34:42 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: schwartzgk Subject: Re: women in The New American Poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Liz Bishop and Kay Boyle also hit the mark... Gerald Schwartz replete with sand-trap ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Bowering" To: Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 4:07 PM Subject: Re: women in The New American Poetry > > > But Plath? She was the darling of the academic poets and the young > >> women who had conventional dreams. we knew that she represented the > >> other side, where Robert Lowell and Ted Hughs had set up camp. > > > >Some darling she turned out to be, eh? George, did you follow her work > >as the "conventional dreams" went rather spectacularly awry? > > > >If you did, perhaps you found it wanting. . . . > > Well, what I picked up was Sylvia saying I feel terrible; therefore > it is a terrible world. > > I think that HD was the best poem-maker in the US till 1961. She too > wrote about her own situation, but she wrote through the imagination > rather than the self-regard that says this ought to get them > whimpering. > > > -- > George Bowering > Has a shock of brown hair. > Fax 604-266-9000 > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 14:01:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Jullich Subject: Re: inside/outside the academy (oops, part 2) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii mdw@GWU.EDU wrote: > Review a small press book this year, and hang around where you're not wanted-- While there's definitely something positive and generous about the spirit of that mission (and the reviews that I myself have published were, I think, ~only~ of small press books: Spuyten Duyvil, Avec, Sun & Moon, etc.),--- I feel there's something slightly missing or misaimed in that strategy. (The idea was: if half the List were to write reviews about small press and half the teachers were to teach an exo-academic book,--- then, let a thousand poets bloom!) But neither reputations nor "poetic value" are made in that way. The proposal, while healthy, promises proliferation but at the risk of diffusion and dispersion (as I suspect is already the case). To the contrary, part of how poetic value and canon ("fame") were engineered, how the poets taught by academia were brought to the attention of academia in the first place, was through concerted if unorganized ~consensus~ around certain names. Reviews or criticism work by ~reiteration,~ not by diversification. "Fame" or poetic value is basically a case of heavy ~redundancy~ that is achieved by a ubiquitous repetition of the same names. An Ashbery is an Ashbery because ~everyone~ wrote about Ashbery. And not because everyone (500 ur-List members) was writing reviews. (Isn't the battle cry, though, in fact asking reviewers to serve the function of advertising and promotion? ...Which may not be reviews' purpose. It's simplifying reviewers' place in the ecosystem into entirely one of ~marketing.~ Much the same could be accomplished, then, by calling for an increase in the advertising budget of small presses. (Interestingly, too, this hope placed in what is very significantly being designated as "reviews" skirts all the List's earlier feuds of an antagonism between poet and ~critic.~ Is the clarion call marshalling reviews but ~not~ "criticism"? Does writing reviews make the journalist a critic?) Too widespread a practice of insufficiently reenforced "publicity" even becomes a thinning-out of the whole mechanism, and leads to a leveling out of the playing field. In the two previous waves, the small New York School coterie very interestingly operated under an unspoken rule of mentioning, whenever and wherever, the names of their poet friends,--- so that, from their earliest interviews on, Ashbery would name-drop Koch, Koch Ashbery, etc; even in their art criticism (reviews of painting exhibitions), they would often stretch the point unabashedly to name-drop by metaphor or by non sequitur. Although Language Poetry's initial body of poets' criticism was largely self-published rather than institution-dependent, the same self-referentiality prevailed. And it worked, tactically. (There may be other nuances to this, too. Criticism or reviews begin to take on their fullest force, as they do in popular arts such as film or best-sellers, when the broad attention assured by a large enough body of reviewers allows ~the negative review~ to enter into the mix, without threatening the welfare and future of the work reviewed but by pulling out other overlooked dimensions of it,--- and the reviews/criticism developing into a full dialectical system, "point/counter-point" --- or "healthy debate.") In the absence of the Language Poetry that the List was originally consecrated to preserve and foster, all the ongoing discussion tacitly avoids the sort of unanimities and naming-of-names that might make that possible, though. Lastly--(?)--- but on a somewhat different note, isn't the originality of the idea simply that we should deploy things exactly as they are? That is, all the minuets and courtseys of the publishing world, reviewers and reviewed, remain in place but that this reenvigorated use of it would somehow succeed in doing what the same means has gradually been going obsolete over? Personally, I wonder if readership wouldn't increase faster if more ~PEOPLE Magazine~ methods weren't used: cult of personality, gossip, biography as pornography, scandal... Again, the handy example of Ashbery (Ashbery Ashbery Ashbery): Has he ever given a single interview where he doesn't immediately manage to wheedle in the slick image-styling of saying that he grew up on his father's farm? ------------------------------------------------------- Mark DuCharme wrote: > but Mark, you're a teacher, critic & editor, and you're talking to a list consisting of a lot of other teachers, critics, editors, publishers, MOST of whom (I'd wager) sympathize with your desire to break down that distinction, regardless of which side they'd take on the endlessly recycled academic/anti-academic debate on this list. Shit, if (for example) HALF the people on this list reviewed one book in the next year by a poet not working in academia; if HALF the people here who teach included one (more) poet outside of academia in their course reading materials; if just ONE THIRD of the editors & publishers on this list published one (more) book by a poet outside academia-- don't you think that would make a difference? No it wouldn't be a cure-all-- but wouldn't it make a difference? __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 17:52:21 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: Poetry & arts-related recommendations in Amsterdam? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm going to be in Amsterdam next week and am wondering whether there's anyone I should meet or any place I should go that are of interest, poetry-speaking... Bookstores, venues for readings, poets, etc... or maybe something completely fabulous in the arts that's not poetry-related. I've been to the Stedelijk (sp?) and the other Big Museums there before. Anything out of the ordinary or extraordinary welcomed. Patrick Patrick Herron patrick@proximate.org !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !Getting Close Is What! ! We're All About(TM) ! !http://proximate.org/! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 00:19:20 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lakey Teasdale Subject: THE SHIPPING FORECAST V - MAGNUS & THE YOUNG GIRL Comments: To: "WRYTING-L : Writing and Theory across Disciplines" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit THE SHIPPING FORECAST V - MAGNUS & THE YOUNG GIRL There are warnings of gales in Viking, South Utsire Forties Cromarty Fair Island Faeroes and he painted a Madonna the Italian prisoner of war used just shell cases, you know the left-over bits and the Barriers. Actually washed right over. Straight into simply devastating. Cannot fathom why. Doesn't matter. at all. Strange that. accused of murder: and have her hands bund behind her back convoyed by the said lockman to the oise mouth and drooned in the sea tae the death. Seventeen years old. Convenient. Rather than seek truth. A young girl. Atlantic low moving rather quickly northeast, expected 225 miles west of Fitzroy 10:06. New low expected. By the same time it was surprising. Put it no higher than that. No. Put it no higher. Ever. Finis. So long as they remained friends. The death of Magnus. on his knees. In prayer. near the water of Hoy. on the parish boundary. They said a sailor. From a whaling ship. Well, she committed suicide. Pregnant. During the war the soldiers put the fence there. Tidied up the grave. A young girl. Young. Forties, Cromarty. Southeasterly 6 or 7, occasionally gale 8. Showers. Good Becoming moderate. veering northwesterly 4 or 5, remained cheerful, they say. Haakon actually got someone else to: hew him a mighty stroke to the head, so that he was killed as a lord and not as a thief. Makes all the difference. No? Dover Wight Portland Plymouth easterly veering northwesterly 4 or 5. occasionally 6. rain then showers. Moderate becoming good. Fitzroy? Not really. She was only a young girl at the time, you see. Still it was only time passes. Only time. THE SHIPPING FORECAST V - MAGNUS & THE YOUNG GIRL issued at 00:14 on 12/10/02 by Lakey Teasdale ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 18:13:50 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: Re: inside/outside the academy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii there is no academy.... there is only mind... uh huh! ===== http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html meditation, net art, poeisis: blog http://lewislacook.blogspot.com/ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 18:36:18 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K. Silem Mohammad" Subject: Re: Towards a New Positivity: Errant Hopes and Foolish Desires In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Just want to say I think this is a great idea. Tho I would suggest poems by living writers instead of (or in addition to) dead greats. If the paper costs, etc. proved too high, how about just poetry spam? Thousands of unsolicited poetry e-mails, clogging up everyone's in-box, uncontrolled, undisciplined, unedited.... Oh, wait: that's this list. K. P.S. I really do like the idea. on 10/11/02 9:49 AM, Robert Corbett at rcor@U.WASHINGTON.EDU wrote: > (for Jordan Davis & Jim Behrle) > > this is an idea (god, that sounds pretentious, but whatever...): how > about poetry junk mail? a monthly mass mailing of a poem on a broadside. > (relatively decent paper, with some visual candy). this is a country-wide > version of poetry on the bus. what is it that we are surrounded by, but > those random missives from the outside vendors, wanting to welcome us into > their happy fold of customers. i bet one could generate a database of a > a million names and leaflet our towns and cities. say, anyone who submits > a poem to a journal or magazine automatically gets listed. > > underlying assumption is that what be sent is unjustly obscure american > poets. maybe a reproduction of Dickinson fascicle. maybe some poetic > obscurantism by Emerson, but i myself would start with Stein. (for > today, i am actually thinking of Creeley's "I know a man"). thence to > Williams. thence to Zukofsky. the names and faces can change: the > point to get poetry under people's noses and not over their heads. > > Robert > > -- > Robert Corbett "I will discuss perfidy with scholars as > rcor@u.washington.edu as if spurning kisses, I will sip > Department of English the marble marrow of empire. I want sugar > University of Washington but I shall never wear shame and if you > call that sophistry then what is Love" > - Lisa Robertson ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 02:55:19 -0400 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Pavement Saw Press Subject: Re: Academy as First World? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gary-- Using this comparison > > Aloud: Voices from the Nuyorican Poets' Cafe > Amazon sales rank: 21,579 > > Postmodern American Poetry: A Norton Anthology > Amazon sales rank: 40,459 especially this particular book (it's an anomaly) & not enough to prove >A "slam" person--Bob Holman, for > instance--can co-edit a poetry guide on about.com that I would guess has at > least as many (probably more) active readers as Norton. as the Norton book is substantially distanced from the rest of their titles. Notice how the cover does not retain the standard Norton look. If I remember correctly, Norton is in cursive letters that are difficult to read. This title was put out as a loss leader, just in case the two other similar anthologies released at the same time happened to have any success. Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus OH 43206 USA http://pavementsaw.org ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 21:52:55 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: grand temps au prochain In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v546) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable grand temps au prochain let raglan lucidity appetite the mind, exhaust the inclinations of=20 language mechanisms, sick with sink-or-swim autonomous international=20 organizations feeding the whimsy Garden of war, poverty, environmental=20= degradation and stupidity. this oily derive for reason recognizes the=20 worlds finale with joy and slavery, patrician and genius in a sensory=20 deprivation newsletter inebriated with morale peek-a-boo between=20 itching and cosmos. a spirit of hooded sensibility allows state myth=20 purified in sixth sense sorrow triumph and demand order to complement=20= low latitude unreason. call for an eternal that captures psaltery dreams and sexual transverse=20= wave concepts in which there is no Enemy. We must make the ephemeral triumph itself in a used photo-offset=20 climax of insanity's contradictory phantasms plus multi-revolutional=20 reason, In a daydream language ingrained outside the appropriate=20 middle-of-the-road linguistic policies and sick sink avant-garde=20 perpetuates, sophisticated overview morale maintenance programs,=20 vascular dust systems. 1. have universal circus anticipation shine sensory steam down=20 substance 2. overcome existing relations from new knowledge work things, 3. recognize the excitement of life's silent film cosmos that varies=20= according to bodies of carnal future. 5. make sentimentalist seed excitement out of fruit spoon dictionaries. creates magnificent abacus follys puts genocide aggression or Its delivery on replacement this Declaration - this class antagonisms - this diamond knot not=20 mutually harmful but a bang but a dream - an attempted spectacle=20 decadence inside fashion liberationlust crop dusters, promotes greasy=20= finger bowel noun castrations. we detest objectivity. Our consciousness grape fruit spoon exposures=20 blasting psychology, descriptive education, family planning and the=20 avant-garde. this satisfaction secret aloha cult may be right, may = be=20 you, may be a silent fiddle bowed, new forms of bang, a day In the=20 greatest liberation lust crop delivery vindicated - declared forefront=20= of lies that lay between contradictions, grotesque inconsistencies and=20= lyrical thinking application. strip search gender from illusional washing machines apocalypse workweek domination. this planet must remain an organ overture a profound intelligence speed collar a perpetual supreme spur. It=92s a jelly-roll, pay hail due regard here-here to protect =20 hocus-pocus hopeful impulsiveness madness half decision-making and=20 low-intensity conflict language practices, eternal fidelities, Z-zero=20 particle literary insanity and g temporal address for constructing All=20= that proceeds between immense lucidity and the cosmos. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 01:35:48 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dcmb Subject: Re: women in The New American Poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit the last time he was romping with Maria Damon, she was heard to refer to it as a "D.A.".....DB -----Original Message----- From: George Bowering To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Friday, October 11, 2002 12:57 PM Subject: Re: women in The New American Poetry >> to >>dedicate your life to work that is raw > >Is there some kind of oxymoron here? >-- >George Bowering >Has a shock of brown hair. >Fax 604-266-9000 > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 00:40:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: trilby sorts and folds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII trilby sorts and folds sortmode=0 prevsort=0 sortmode=0 prevsort=0 sortmode=0 prevsort=0 sortmode=0 prevsort=0 sortmode=0 prevsort=0 sortmode=0 prevsort=0 sortmode=0 prevsort=0 sortmode=0 prevsort=0 sortmode=0 prevsort=0 sortmode=0 prevsort=0 sortmode=0 prevsort=0 sortmode=0 prevsort=0 sortmode=0 prevsort=0 sortmode=0 prevsort=0 sortmode=0 prevsort=0 sortmode=0 prevsort=0 sortmode=0 prevsort=0 sortmode=0 prevsort=0 sortmode=0 prevsort=0 sortmode=0 prevsort=0 sortmode=0 prevsort=0 sortmode=0 prevsort=0 sortmode=0 prevsort=0 sortmode=0 prevsort=0 sortmode=0 prevsort=0 sortmode=0 prevsort=0 sortmode=0 prevsort=0 sortmode=0 prevsort=0 sortmode=0 prevsort=0 sortmode=0 prevsort=0 sortmode=0 prevsort=0 sortmode=0 prevsort=0 sortmode=0 prevsort=0 sortmode=0 prevsort=0 sortmode=0 prevsort=0 sortmode=0 prevsort=0 sortmode=0 prevsort=0 sortmode=0 prevsort=0 sortmode=0 prevsort=0 sortmode=0 prevsort=0 sortmode=0 prevsort=0 sortmode=0 prevsort=0 sortmode=0 prevsort=0 sortmode=0 prevsort=0 sortmode=0 prevsort=0 sortmode=0 prevsort=0 sortmode=0 prevsort=0 sortmode=0 prevsort=0 sortmode=0 prevsort=0 sortmode=0 prevsort=0 sortmode=0 prevsort=0 sortmode=0 prevsort=0 sortmode=999 prefsort=0 sort=0 foldFormat=0 foldItems=1667 foldOwn= foldName=6,Bin 1 foldPos=0,0,0,0 foldFormat=0 foldItems= foldOwn= foldName=-1 foldPos=0,0,0,0 foldFormat=0 foldItems=81683 foldOwn= foldName=6,movie foldPos=0,0,0,0 foldFormat=0 foldItems= foldOwn= foldName=-1 foldPos=0,0,0,0 foldFormat=0 foldItems= foldOwn= foldName=-1 foldPos=0,0,0,0 foldFormat=0 foldItems= foldOwn= foldName=-1 foldPos=0,0,0,0 foldFormat=0 foldItems= foldOwn= foldName=-1 foldPos=0,0,0,0 foldFormat=0 foldItems= foldOwn= foldName=-1 foldPos=0,0,0,0 foldFormat=0 foldItems= foldOwn= foldName=-1 foldPos=0,0,0,0 foldFormat=0 foldItems= foldOwn= foldName=-1 foldPos=0,0,0,0 foldFormat=0 foldItems= foldOwn= foldName=-1 foldPos=0,0,0,0 foldFormat=0 foldItems= foldOwn= foldName=-1 foldPos=0,0,0,0 foldFormat=0 foldItems= foldOwn= foldName=-1 foldPos=0,0,0,0 foldFormat=0 foldItems= foldOwn= foldName=-1 foldPos=0,0,0,0 foldFormat=0 foldItems= foldOwn= foldName=-1 foldPos=0,0,0,0 foldFormat=0 foldItems= foldOwn= foldName=-1 foldPos=0,0,0,0 foldFormat=0 foldItems= foldOwn= foldName=-1 foldPos=0,0,0,0 foldFormat=0 foldItems= foldOwn= foldName=-1 foldPos=0,0,0,0 foldFormat=0 foldItems= foldOwn= foldName=-1 foldPos=0,0,0,0 foldFormat=0 foldItems= foldOwn= foldName=-1 foldPos=0,0,0,0 foldFormat=0 foldItems= foldOwn= foldName=-1 foldPos=0,0,0,0 foldFormat=0 foldItems= foldOwn= foldName=-1 foldPos=0,0,0,0 foldFormat=0 foldItems= foldOwn= foldName=-1 foldPos=0,0,0,0 foldFormat=0 foldItems= foldOwn= foldName=-1 foldPos=0,0,0,0 foldFormat=0 foldItems= foldOwn= foldName=-1 foldPos=0,0,0,0 foldFormat=0 foldItems= foldOwn= foldName=-1 foldPos=0,0,0,0 foldFormat=0 foldItems= foldOwn= foldName=-1 foldPos=0,0,0,0 foldFormat=0 foldItems= foldOwn= foldName=-1 foldPos=0,0,0,0 foldFormat=0 foldItems= foldOwn= foldName=-1 foldPos=0,0,0,0 foldFormat=0 foldItems= foldOwn= foldName=-1 foldPos=0,0,0,0 foldFormat=0 foldItems= foldOwn= foldName=-1 foldPos=0,0,0,0 foldFormat=0 foldItems= foldOwn= foldName=-1 foldPos=0,0,0,0 foldFormat=0 foldItems= foldOwn= foldName=-1 foldPos=0,0,0,0 foldFormat=0 foldItems= foldOwn= foldName=-1 foldPos=0,0,0,0 foldFormat=0 foldItems= foldOwn= foldName=-1 foldPos=0,0,0,0 foldFormat=0 foldItems= foldOwn= foldName=-1 foldPos=0,0,0,0 foldFormat=0 foldItems= foldOwn= foldName=-1 foldPos=0,0,0,0 foldFormat=0 foldItems= foldOwn= foldName=-1 foldPos=0,0,0,0 foldFormat=0 foldItems= foldOwn= foldName=-1 foldPos=0,0,0,0 foldFormat=0 foldItems= foldOwn= foldName=-1 foldPos=0,0,0,0 foldFormat=0 foldItems= foldOwn= foldName=-1 foldPos=0,0,0,0 foldFormat=0 foldItems= foldOwn= foldName=-1 foldPos=0,0,0,0 foldFormat=0 foldItems= foldOwn= foldName=-1 foldPos=0,0,0,0 foldFormat=0 foldItems= foldOwn= foldName=-1 foldPos=0,0,0,0 foldFormat=0 foldItems= foldOwn= foldName=-1 foldPos=0,0,0,0 foldFormat=0 foldItems= foldOwn= foldName=-1 foldPos=0,0,0,0 foldFormat=0 foldItems= foldOwn= foldName=-1 foldPos=0,0,0,0 foldFormat=0 foldItems= foldOwn= foldName=-1 foldPos=0,0,0,0 foldFormat=0 foldItems= foldOwn= foldName=-1 foldPos=0,0,0,0 foldFormat=0 foldItems= foldOwn= foldName=-1 foldPos=0,0,0,0 foldFormat=0 foldItems= foldOwn= foldName=-1 foldPos=0,0,0,0 foldFormat=0 foldItems= foldOwn= foldName=-1 foldPos=0,0,0,0 === ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 01:41:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: poetics not published by academic presses MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT There's also _Third Mind from T&W and Susan Stweart's _Poetry and the fate of the senses. Not billed as 'poetics' but fertile all the same. tom bell ----- Original Message ----- From: "J Kuszai" To: Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 4:26 PM Subject: Re: poetics not published by academic presses > Steve Kowit is a great teacher. Does this make him an academic? I met > him at Southwestern College in Chula Vista, where he is a very > important intellectual/academic figure; for many students he > represents a key signpost in the academic journey. Is there anyone > out there who has a problem with that? I can think of a dozen of > students I actively encouraged to seek him out as a teacher, mentor, > friend, poet (though not necessarily in that order) and about five or > six who had already done so when I met them. The point is that what's > getting called "academic" here seems to totally miss the point about > what it is that "we" do in the academy--and boy, I'm sure glad that > others have stepped in here to respond to what seems like one of the > annual threads. This continual stream of consciousness, like a > virtual Steve Kowit, can be an instructive rescue for a struggler in > the desert. There are many deserts. Lets not get out of hand here. > Thanks for the thoughts. > > >From IN THE PALM OF YOUR HAND: THE POET'S PORTABLE WORKSHOP, by Steve > >Kowit: > > > >"Three sentences about a moment that changed one's life! Is this a > >vignette, a tale, a short-story, a sketch, an anecdote? We could call > >it any of those -- or we could call it a little poem in *prose*." > > Yikes. Worth trying. I'll try that. > -- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 03:20:27 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: CELIA CURTIS #0014 Comments: To: 7-11@mail.ljudmila.org, ImitationPoetics@listserv.unc.edu, o-o@konf.lt, webartery@yahoogroups.com, syndicate@anart.no, _arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au, owner-realpoetik@scn.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PENULTIMATE DYNAMIC INTERPLAY #0014 [EXCERPT] CELIA CURTIS www.wired-paris-review.com MY CHORAL => AND HE HAS ME OUT REMITTANCE OF GATES => JAMB => CLIMBED THE ROCKS AND HOOVES => PANS => YOU YOURSELF IN VICARIOUS => SENSELESS => SILLY => AS HE ATTEMPT => WOULD IT IS BY AN ETON GHOST => PRAISE => HER JUSTIFIED => SERMON => WHITE => COME INGENUITY AND CLEVERNESS OF EXPERTS TO THE OF TIN => IN PROBABLY => BLADDER => HAD APPEARED ON THE CONTAIN => I WARMER => WITH THE OF GENTRY => OBLIGE => DEFINITE => WHIPLASH|STRAPS => ELEGANCE => THEY ABOUT PACES CABBAGE => DAMP => MEDDLECHIP AT HIM BUT THIS WAS A OF FILTHY => FIND => AS SLIVERS WAS TO THE OF THAT UNEVEN => BATTERY => BY ITS STINGING REMARKS ABOUT HIS AND HE FINGERPRINTS => WAYS => WEASEL => TO THE SMOKING MANIPULATE => AND THINKING PIERRE SLUMP => CINCH => ON THE PERSUADED => POLICY => AND TURNING HIS TO THE CUTOUT => DISPROVE => KITTY AT THE LEER => GRABBED => WITH FANNY WOPPLES SHE SLOW => SLOW => THAT MYSELF AND PIERRE WERE AT OUR CATERPILLARS => M VILLIERS WAS BUT YOU ASKED KITTY IN A AS THEY FINGERPRINTS => FELL CATERPILLARS => M VANDELOUP HUMMING ATTRACTION => AWFUL => ETHEREAL => EXISTING => FINGERPRINTS => YOU MIXTURE => MODEL => APPLES HE ASKED WITHIT => AMUSED BY HER CANDOUR HER FATHER SHE DETERMINED TO TO THAT AH YE TAE THE JAFFA => MORTGAGE => O TOPHET WHEN YE DEE OBSERVE => ODD => OF => MCINTOSH GASTON PICKED MADAM => INSECT => QUESTION|MISLED => OF THE AND CRUSHED IT DEFINITE => HIS ACTS BY OBSERVE => ODD => OF => WOPPLES WOULD SERENADE => ON THE NIGHT THE LOOK => ARRANGEMENT => MADAME MIDAS IS FABLE => FLOWERY => FOR ME CRIED VANDELOUP EAGERLY HOLDING OUT HIS OF HER HE WOULD FRIGHTENING => THAT WAS AN HE HAD OF THIS TIN => IF WHAT HE MIGHT BE TO MELBOURNE WITHOUT PAYING AND LEAVING HIS PROVE IT THEN RETORTED VANDELOUP KNOCKING AT THE TO AND CONCENTRATION => I TO MELBOURNE EMPHASIZE => FROM SELINA FOR HER MISTRESS HAD FALLEN IN HER CLOISTERED => IN WITH THE SUBDUED ALL IT AND THE FLICKER OF THE THERE WAS QUIET => TALKATIVE => NEVER => WHEN THIS WAS AS IT FLIES CONT THE FRAGMENTS OF THE SPEARS WHICH HAVE IN AND WE ARE ON THE HIGHSPEED => LETTUCE => LOOKING ON THE GLITTERING HOWL => HYSTERIA => OF THE COMPUTER => I BE HERE KITTY REPROACHFULLY TRIBES OF THE PRODUCED|GAINS => WAVING|ERROR => FEW ARE AS FELL => FISHING => TONGUE FREEDOM AT LAID HIS BLIGHTER => PICKERS => ON HIS --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.394 / Virus Database: 224 - Release Date: 10/3/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 23:23:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joshua Berlow Subject: Amazon Sales Ranking MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT At least I'm ahead of somebody! This makes me feel better. At Amazon.com Sales Rank: 1,026,052 I thought I was at the bottom. Joshua (author of Insanity Factory, available on Amazon.com) Berlow PS- I'd love to be an academic if anyone is hiring, but alls I got is a BA. On 11 Oct 2002 at 0:03, Automatic digest processor wrote: > 1,051,454 Silliman, Toner, $9.50 > 1,062,904 Killian, Argento Series > 1,376,255 Joshua Clover, Madonna Anno Domini > 1,334,310 Koch, Sun Out (Selected) > 1,413,267 Piombino, The Boundary of Blur > 1,436,653 Stacy Doris, Paramour > 1,610,791 Sullivan/Gordon, Are Not Our Lowing Heiffers > 1,614,814 Scalapino, Orchid Jetsam > 1,849,826 Brian Kim Stefans, Angry Penguins > 2,363,382 Lytle Shaw, Cable Factory -- Joshua Berlow's Website: http://www.joshuaberlow.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 10:38:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jane Sprague Subject: inside and outside the academy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Following the thread on academic/non-academic presses/inside/outside the = academy and what exactly *poetics* is has been very interesting, and to = my mind, interrelated. In all of these pixelated conversations I find it = curious that few listers have articulated the concept of access. Who has = it, and how, what you do with that access once you procure it. I could = keep going with these questions, but I think that there has been = adequate representation of the convolutions of this = subject/dichotomy/riddle. If there is to be *success* in poetics, how does one quantify that? By = opening doors, by initiating conversations, by reading and attending = events by people working in other "non-academic" forms- or venues, by = hosting and publicizing readings, conferences, etc. to more than the = narrow community you may move, and feel comfortably ensconced within.=20 If there is to be a modicum of *success* in poetics- doesn't it come = from ongoing intercourse with eachother's work and simply getting the = work out there? By using one's access to cultivate discussion, = opportunity and events for those who may not have the same access to = resources? Small presses, regardless of their affiliation, seem = particularly poised for agility in this regard. At any rate, if you are = truly interested in this concept, perhaps regard your own set of = circumstances and what is possible within the access you have. And = perhaps ask yourself how the divisions serve or hinder your intent.=20 Jane ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 10:52:28 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: inside/outside the academy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark, If one splits the history of American poetry into generations and then examines which poets of previous generations we admire most, do we see that we admire those who lived in the academy most? I don't think so. Isn;t it that the Black Mountain group or the Objectivists or the New York School or Duncan and Spicer all thrived outside the academy. Some of the members might have teached in the academy (e.g. Bob Creely); but that occurred after his reputation was established more or less. Even T.S. Eliot and Ezra Pound and Gertrude Stein left the country. W.C. Williams was a doctor. Very few Beats taught, Allen late in his life. It appears to me the presence of academic teaching as a full time job is a relatively recent development in American poetic culture, partly maybe due to proliferation of writing programs and invention of adjunct teaching (which in a more industrial context would be called scab labor). In my opinion the idea of the academic (in American poetry) needs to be treated historically, which had a beginning and possibly and end. This way one sees its power is less than one thinks. For instance, do academic publications have so much more distribution that small presses (if one takes the idea of "prestige" out)? Even C. Bernstein's "Content's Dream." To me it's his most influential book, first published, if I am not wrong, by Sun and Moon." Was L-A-N-G-U-A-G-E an academic publication? Just some thoughts. Murat ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 11:00:20 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: more of the academy thread, non-U.S. contexts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/10/02 2:40:52 PM, andyrathmann@EARTHLINK.NET writes: >What about Japan or Taiwan? What about India? I thought there were at >least a few list members residing in Asia... > Very few, if any, of the Turkish poets teach. Some are in advertizments or scinces or writing for newspapers or translating or some kind of business. Some just don't work, rich parents, rich spouses or "borrow" from friends. Murat ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 11:07:48 -0400 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: notes from the 'day' job.... for those few of you who live in the 'real' world...try the Roger Rechler Sale yesterday at Christie's...results are up at the web site... notable for this 'group'....On the Road...inscribed to Joyce (nee Glassmann) Johnson..185,500....and Town and City..to the same ole girlfriend..23,900....Lolita..Nabokov to Vera..272,etc.... Richler was a wealthy Jewish L.I. commercial real-estate developer...many of the books in the sale bear the stamp of the Glen H....another Jew who bought the 1/100 J. Joyce Inscribed U. to his publisher...460,500... It's all a plot Le Roi...tho the three Howl/Kaddish/Reality..Ginsie to Ez...didn't sell which proves again that tho the Zionists rule the world...even they have a $$$ limit to self-hatred...just drive it to the bank...DRn.. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 00:14:35 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "B.E. Basan" Subject: Re: inside/outside the academy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm only catching bits and pieces of this thread so far, but I thought I'd add that Ezra Pound actually commented on this "relatively new development" in a Paris Review interview (1966 sounds like the year, but all from memory as my books are several thousand miles away). He said something along the lines that it's inevitable that poets teach and live by academia.. a poet's got to earn a living somehow. Best, Ben ----- Original Message ----- From: "Murat Nemet-Nejat" To: Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 11:52 PM Subject: Re: inside/outside the academy | Mark, | | If one splits the history of American poetry into generations and then | examines which poets of previous generations we admire most, do we see that | we admire those who lived in the academy most? I don't think so. Isn;t it | that the Black Mountain group or the Objectivists or the New York School or | Duncan and Spicer all thrived outside the academy. Some of the members might | have teached in the academy (e.g. Bob Creely); but that occurred after his | reputation was established more or less. | | Even T.S. Eliot and Ezra Pound and Gertrude Stein left the country. | | W.C. Williams was a doctor. | | Very few Beats taught, Allen late in his life. | | It appears to me the presence of academic teaching as a full time job is a | relatively recent development in American poetic culture, partly maybe due to | proliferation of writing programs and invention of adjunct teaching (which in | a more industrial context would be called scab labor). | | In my opinion the idea of the academic (in American poetry) needs to be | treated historically, which had a beginning and possibly and end. This way | one sees its power is less than one thinks. For instance, do academic | publications have so much more distribution that small presses (if one takes | the idea of "prestige" out)? Even C. Bernstein's "Content's Dream." To me | it's his most influential book, first published, if I am not wrong, by Sun | and Moon." Was L-A-N-G-U-A-G-E an academic publication? | | Just some thoughts. | | Murat | ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 09:25:31 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: Re: women in The New American Poetry In-Reply-To: <200210112005.g9BK5uJ06685@beasley.concentric.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Well, what I picked up was Sylvia saying I feel terrible; therefore > it is a terrible world. There's no doubt that Plath was a sick puppy. But serious people can read her work without signing up for any victim-cult. That was my point. Not that I endorse her goofy world-view, any more than Marjorie Perloff does when she calls Plath "an extraordinary poet" or speaks of her "peculiar ability to fuse the domestic and the hallucinatory." You don't have to drink the toxic Kool-Aid to see that there's something going on in the poems. Nor does reading Pound or Eliot or Baraka turn me into a raving anti-Semite. Perloff again: "Only now, some twenty-five years after her death, can we begin to assess her oeuvre." But the flashpoints of the last couple of days make it clear that this is still a pretty difficult task. Rachel L. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 16:47:11 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Lasko Subject: Re: own face Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed JDavis & Dears, Gambling-Addiction studies get out of hand only for those not Horn(e)y enough to headline them. Girls on the Run, we call them where I come from. Isn't poetics really a sort of under-the-armpit garment odor left in the closet of one state and arrived in the pleasure of a second day in some next, a sort of partly remembered blip from short-term dance hall sweat theorized into the long-term rapacious figure everyone brags about extensively but no one can really see? Writing about an exciting experience is more exciting than experiencing the excitment of an experience, which is boring, entirely, because there's always too much to say about it. Which is what "poetics" is for. It's the cushion against which one writes. It's a word for all the ways in which Matter comes into the work to call foul, let everything out, fuck things up, and "have a word with you". Relation, or as a friend once wrote, "when I say We, You know who I'm talking about." Cat > >From: Jordan Davis >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: own face >Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 16:16:34 -0400 > >Nick - > >"any process by which poets >discuss, define and explicate their own art" > >This sounds like self-analysis a la Karen Horney. > >It also reminds me of Norman Mailer's parody >of Whitman: Advertisements for myself. > >I realize (thanks to a remarkable essay by >Susan Schultz on list owner Charles Bernstein >in Issue 14 of Jacket) that self-presentation >is an issue poets would be wise to attend to. > >And as I've had kindly pointed out to me by >Rod Smith, I wouldn't want to go messing with >any poet's prerogative to swerve from sense >to nonsense and back. I wouldn't want to ask >anyone to justify any particular bout of >abstract ear. > >My concern: we valorize the capacity to say >whatever comes into our heads or out through >our pens keyboards mouths. In therapy, though, >free association is often (productively) >followed by the question, so what are you saying >there, or by the therapist's abstraction from >the subject's words. > >The goal doesn't have to be a marketable >consistency of self, by any means. By any >means necessary. (The Audubon now has an >X Caffe, by the way.) There doesn't even >need to be agreement on the goal, for there >to be a definition of poetics. I admit >that although I'm more interested in >understanding art in general than my art >in particular, I do keep a blog for my >observations on forms that I explode >over and over like a poorly-supervised >eighth grader. (Backchannel for details.) > >Now, having advertised myself, I mention >my concern that the idealized discourse >that I suggested before could be let go >without real damage to our writing selves >imposes a feedback loop -- writing while >justifying the writing in genre-blurring >writing... don't get me wrong, I think >Yo La Tengo went a little soft after >Electr-o-Pura (ok after President!), but >feedback also needs to be understood. > >Poetics, essays, projective Olsonian >criticism, rhapsodism, are they serving >understanding or are they carrying >understanding away. Headline in the >Onion: Gambling-Addiction study getting >out of hand. > >Jordan _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 13:00:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nick Piombino Subject: Whutz poetix? Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 16:16:34 -0400 > From: Jordan Davis > Subject: own face > > Nick - > > "any process by which poets > discuss, define and explicate their own art" > > This sounds like self-analysis a la Karen Horney. > > It also reminds me of Norman Mailer's parody > of Whitman: Advertisements for myself.... > My concern: we valorize the capacity to say > whatever comes into our heads or out through > our pens keyboards mouths. In therapy, though, > free association is often (productively) > followed by the question, so what are you saying > there, or by the therapist's abstraction from > the subject's words. > > The goal doesn't have to be a marketable > consistency of self, by any means. By any > means necessary. > > > Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 16:19:58 -0400 > From: ksilem@MINDSPRING.COM > Subject: whutz poetix? > >> Poetics... I have a strong feeling none of >> the books I've listed satisfy >> the unarticulated definition of *poetics.* >> What's poetics? >> >> Jordan > > I like Nick's answer about the process by which we define, explicate, etc. our > practice. I think there's also a prescriptive or evaluative element involved: > an explicit or implicit imperative. How about we all come up with our own > one-sentence prescriptive poetics, as basic and economical (and maybe > incendiary) as we can make it? Here's mine: > > "A poem should be interesting as language and in at least one other way." > > K. I should have written "explicate each others art." I think K. Silem understood what I was getting at, but then again, without inventive misreadings where we would we poets be? Jordan's point about free association seems useful. In this model I would suggest that the poems are the "free associations" and the poetics are the "interpretations." But an important difference is that therapy- in my view- is out to help people feel and function better; i.e., have more effective answers for themselves. Then we need poetry, poetics (and other disciplines) to feel and function more comprehensively; i.e., ask- sometimes insist on- more effective questions for ourselves, each other and the culture(s) we live in and among. - Can't help mentioning-seeing K's subject line "Whutz poetix?"- a terrific essay by Eileen Myles in her book "On My Way" (Faux Press, 2001). The essay is titled "The End of New England" and it concerns the issue of class in everyday speech and poetry. She writes: "....(and in some ways I'm thinking about all writers who are essentially always engaged in this act of translation every day, turning things into symbols) are typically moving between one language and another, for instance-shuttling between the literary language which is written and more affiliated with the middle class and up, and the working and lower classes whose story is generally spoken: it's a language of pleasure, adjustment and use. By its very nature it's a language of repetition, shorthand, working class language is incomplete. "Heads up!"Whatcha gonna do means something vastly different from What are you going to do...What are you going to do is a guidance counselor, a human being demanding a reply from another, not a human being looking at another human being looking at a machine, the job, or the bigger machine, which is life." Nick ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 11:11:45 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: inside/outside the academy In-Reply-To: <9c.27b675bf.2ad9912c@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" murat, you generally say a lot of things with which i agree (i too think ~a.i.~ is one of the great films of the past 50 years---something i've been wanting to post here for a while now), or am at least provoked by... but when you compare adjunct teachers in academe to "scabs," well that really gets my goat, murat... and i'm probably as pro-collective bargaining as you're gonna find in these parts... there are so many reasons why that's just not so (never mind a closer interrogation of "scab")---and to suggest as much does a great disservice to that exploited class of laborers upon which so many campuses have come to rely (and as a matter of full disclosure, i've worked as such a "scab," and my partner kass fleisher has been a "scab" in such terms for 15 years now---and my dad was a union steward... so this really really strikes a nerve in me)... i'm gonna leave that one alone and ask you to reconsider that term, in this context... b/c i don't want to lecture you, murat, of all people, as to the history of academic collective bargaining and such like... also, why don't those of you who are interested run right out and pick up d. g. myers's ~the elephants teach: creative writing since 1880~ (prentice hall, 1996)... whatever problems with myers's account (about which, btw, kass and i have written extensively), it'll clear up some of the (forgive me) half-truths i'm listening to re the history of creative writing instruction vis-a-vis modernist poetics... some of you may be surprised at just how tangled this academic history is... so there... aldon: since i'm in such a dis-agreeable mood/mode (!), i thought i'd depart a bit from your analysis of the reception of "exp." prose v. "exp." poetry... i think (as you suggest, yes) there really isn't substantive difference here, finally, not least b/c the only people in academe really willing to read/publish/edit "exp." prose are poets (with the exception of a relatively small group-within-the group of fiction writers and digital writers)... which kinda throws things in relief... and which might presume too that we can identify an "exp." prose that departs from "exp." fiction---& personally, i find this distinction worth considering, esp. given the publishing realities... mark w: yes, the terms of sociological analysis are often problematic... to say it more firmly though: the idea that "poetry" (if w/o quotes, i might write poetic practice) and its relationship with academe can be fruitfully discussed w/o recourse to cultural contexts that include both strikes me as wrongheaded... and btw, i'll be using (among other small press items) your ~nothing happened and besides i wasn't there~ in my grad course next semester (it's still available i hope!)---and i think doing so is one way academics can work to support the small presses and small press authors (of which i is one mself, as you know mark)... that course will also include a healthy quotient of poetics, another way to productively disturb the creative writing enclave as i've come to understand same... in truth, it's difficult to find worthy poetics, imho, outside of the academic presses (with the exceptions many have already noted, and a few others)... at the same time, one of the mainstays of the anti-theory effort (in & out of academe) has been that "literature" itself contains all of the theory one needs to know... now i've heard this latter mouthed by folks who are a helluvalot smarter than the reactionary populace, so while an element of truth inheres therein, it can also become a dodge for doing any real thinking in the creative writing classroom... so there... as to the lamentable state of post/secondary affairs: yep---they've paved paradise, put up a parking lot... or was it paradise?... and is it a parking lot?... in any case, what do y'all want to do now?---tell your kids to forget about higher learning if they have any artistic inclinations whatsoever?... and what if they want to teach?... c'mon now... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 13:30:39 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: Sen. Byrd Fought the Good Fight MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For more information, contact (202) 224-3904. October 10, 2002 Senate Remarks: A Preordained Course of Action on Iraq The Moving Finger writes; and having writ, Moves on; nor all your Piety nor Wit Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it. So said the Persian poet Omar Khayyam in the 11th century. So say I today. The Senate has made clear its intent on the Iraq resolution. The outcome is certain; the ending has been scripted. The Senate will vote, and the Iraq resolution will pass. I continue to believe that the Senate, in following this preordained course of action, will be doing a grave disservice to this nation and to the Constitution on which it was founded. In the newly published National Security Strategy of the United States - the document in which the President outlines the unprecedented policy of pre-emptive deterrence which the Iraq resolution will implement - he asserts that the Constitution has served us well, as though it were some dusty relic of the past that needs to be eulogized before it is retired. He is wrong. The Constitution is no more dated in the principles it established than is the Bible. The Constitution continues to serve us well, if only we will take the time to heed it. I am deeply disappointed that the Senate is not heeding the imperatives of the Constitution and is instead poised to hand off to the President the exclusive power of Congress to determine matters of war and peace. I do not, in my heart of hearts, believe that this is what the American people expect of the Senate. I have heard from tens of thousands of Americans - people from all across this country of ours - who have urged me to keep up the fight. I am only one Senator from a small state, yet in the past week I have received nearly 20,000 telephone calls and nearly 50,000 e-mails supporting my position. I want all of those people across America who took the time to contact me to know how their words have heartened me and sustained me in my efforts to turn the tide of opinion in the Senate. They are my heroes, and I will never forget the remarkable courage and patriotism that reverberated in the fervor of their messages. As the apostle Paul said, "I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith." There are Americans all across this country who have joined in spirit with me and a small band of like-minded Senators in fighting the good fight. We could stay here on the floor and continue to fight, and it is certainly a fight worth the effort. But there is also a point at which it becomes time to accept reality and to regroup. It is clear that we have lost the battle in the Senate, but we have not yet lost the war. The next front is the White House, and I urge all those people who are following this debate, and who have encouraged me in my efforts, to turn their attention to the President. Call him, write him, e-mail him. Urge him to heed the Constitution and not short-circuit it by exercising the broad grant of authority that the Iraq resolution provides. The President has said on many occasions that he has not yet made up his mind to go to war. When he does make up his mind - if he does - then he should come back to Congress and seek formal authorization. Let him use this Iraq resolution as leverage with the United Nations, if that is what he wants it for, but when it comes time for the United States to undertake military action, let him come back to the Congress for authorization. I continue to have faith in our system of government. I continue to have faith in the basic values that shaped this nation. Those values do not include striking first against other nations. Those values do not include using our position as the strongest and most formidable nation in the world to bully and intimidate other nations. Those values do not include putting other nations on an enemies list so that we can justify pre-emptive military action. Were I not to believe in the inherent ability of the Constitution to withstand the folly of such actions as the Senate is about to take, I would not stop fighting. I would fight with every fiber of my body, every ounce of my energy, with every parliamentary tool at my disposal. But I do believe that the Constitution will weather this storm. The Senate will weather the storm as well, but I only hope that when this tempest passes, Senators will reflect on the ramifications of what they have done and understand the damage that has been inflicted on the Constitution. In this debate, the American people seem to have a better understanding of the Constitution than those who are elected to represent them. Perhaps it is that their understanding of the Constitution is not filtered through the prism of election year politics. For whatever reason, I believe that the American people have a better understanding of what the Senate is about to do, a greater respect for the inherent powers of the Constitution, and a greater comprehension of the far-reaching consequences of this resolution than do most of their leaders. I thank my colleagues who have allowed me to express at length my reasons for opposing this resolution. I thank those Senators who have stood with me, supported me, and encouraged me. I thank those Senators who have engaged in thoughtful debate with me. I do not believe that the Senate has given enough time or enough consideration to the question of handing the President unchecked authority to usurp the Constitution and declare war on Iraq. But I accept the futility of continuing to fight on this front. I say to the people of America, to those who have encouraged me and others to uphold the principles of the Constitution, keep up the fight. Keep fighting for what is right. Let your voices be heard. I will always listen to you, and I hope that the President will begin to listen to you. May God bless you in your endeavors. Mr. President, I yield the floor. ### ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 13:14:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: Ms. Virginia When Last Seen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed subscription of the tenderest to appear grandest, the bailiffs left knowing you would soon be damaging his admiration, Virginia his old fair picture was not so low, which was altered whipped/poetical speak out! - I had you with me, classical for about thirty lines linguistic perversion followed A LIVING DEATH the best thing is to tell her reputation must necessarily read & write a pond gave Adonis back to the community, but we had quite a scare promises, Virginia, are life-sized casts of refuse keep that in mind when he insists "nymphs & shepards dance no more" an affair of pelf doesn't amount to the most whitened sepulchers, nor the rhymes Virginia spoons into my mouth chance is all the time getting heavier to hold the thing is, your harvest is hard on others - give them a great deal of work to keep their mind in check the formal is ankle-deep in doubles your swarthy tone is busy beating out consequence this incident, as she reiterates, is caught fancying a bit of suggestibility - so clever with no opportunity to place! I assure you, these precautions are wholly involuntarily I want to help you! eagerness parades its apparent horrors knees sealing ears, cages swept in through the glass our Honest Abes are at sixes & sevens (mostly sevens, eh Virginia?) roses, paper bags, & the burning single penny ended a block away a white cap and orange sheets as they pray for a sneeze fast asleep spelling-words pinned to their sheets, the night swelteringly private O but for one icicle chalked in above our heads! instead punctuality burst another moon-bulb - would it be impolite to offer you the bamboo strips I never paid much attention to? I'm sure they're not going to stick around much longer, but ah, my verdicts, and oh, my forebodings - they'll give a lovely light! bright tins of bright blue also-rans are stacked toweringly on the counter - help yourself animals are metamorphosed into graham crackers for their transgressions He is late, He is late, He is going to eat them, just you wait for God's sake! - what is first invisible should stay that way all surprises should be filthy with dust ___________________________________________________________________ THE VIRGINIA HILL STORY Virginia with her heel which faulty attentions would burst with her ship's surgeon brought ashore for the ride with her hand sounding this roster Virginia who heard the shot during her crawl uphill Virginia with her inadmissible blot sold into darkness whose long-legged volunteering petrified them all Virginia with her toenails waylaid by ruffians, Virginia who agrees with me that not everyone understands insouciance Virginia with her covenant concluding her speech with her foil tip bustling up the haze of spite with her window erased five miles south with her horse insisting the crowd be waved away Virginia high and dry like the tail of an unworldly person with her faint pandemonium quarried back around whose symptoms caught their breath once in the evasion's shade Virginia with her non sequiturs crouched and rotted with her rigidly unremarkable canine teeth Virginia with Byrd at the South Pole Virginia who might have envied the sob still ahead with her summit sounding like a Spanish doctor Virginia limping through the pages to indicate sleepless purpose with her shovel pressed for answers twice daily Virginia whose verse is too late for the fetus with her clay on all fours beneath her skirt with her blue sky movements feverishly across the lake with her withered scabbard scissoring briefly to life Virginia whose nerves are still staring out to sea Virginia with her recognition tucked into my waistband with her uncommon constitution prepared for another midst with her perverse need for antiquated conveniences with her insinuation that lucidity is better at a distance Virginia with her still-burning ordeal of abolitionist reserve with her hospitable inclusion of coordinate predicates Virginia whose last twilight went in for a ten-year stretch _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 20:17:39 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lakey Teasdale Subject: Virginia: the Writing on the wall. And Comments: To: "WRYTING-L : Writing and Theory across Disciplines" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Virginia: the Writing on the wall. And no sub about the - scription. It was, she begged to differ. And she differs. She differs greatly. but the scription. In. only and always. the lingua was languid. Wide out shuttering from the frame. In which she was. A LIVING. living. and never mind. The reputation follows. Oh. the names he called. The perversion calling the pot a utensil. And it is no trouble. No trouble at all. Se shtinkt! But let us focus for a moment, assuming the moment is all. Or double. Or see and raise you five. Toches-lecker. Paskudnyak. Tsaddik writing traifeneh bicher. Go help yourself. Or thank him. perhaps formally ac- knowledge receipt thereof and tell him to simply keep his hands off mah rhyme. Seal his ears. Seven times, double. Seven times. and farpitzed for nothing. Nothing at all. But surely his fore- bodings. What are friends for? If not to reveal the bodies. Filthy surprises. shouldn't wonder. A classic, a classic. Have you heard the one in which admissible was hardly evidential but the evidence was all? And speaks: for god's sake, an episode of sparrows. An episode. simply the windows of the soul. For god's sake? But that is a whole other reiteration swirling. Swept in. perhaps shuddering. For god's sake? And for all the bearded men. Walked into it. Indeed. Eyes. Wide. Shut. as in shut eye. And all attention. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 14:24:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: Sounding the Triangle Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed black flattened into blue the red of emerald jade is gold purple reveals red red glowing black green up like black blue when red white-drawn red ________________________ "signs flash green against blue, black against white, red against yellow. Enlarged pupils of the emerging doctrine attend a hidden teacher of the increasing sound. // And all the signs rime." - Robert Duncan, Structure of Rime XXII _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 16:05:17 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: 20 Sonnets Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed 101. steady now undoing the creeping light mothers make watching my hustle easy to avoid the radio waves we broadcast all S.O.S. and HELPS 102. girls you are not looking at but think you are, a possible yellow glow across the broken martini and arm of a bar I hate 103. jammed up with fresh ennui, in time for moving nights, the awnings of nasty spots hovering yet, ready for the blender 104. mothers now married evenly divided through the states guessing wrong the mayors of their souls elected for life and gone from all scenes married mothers! envy me! gelatinous and free! 105. there is cola in my eye in other news: spring now it feels funny to move or stay still 106. you're merely the latest sinkhole a chicken chow mien mission fear the express, cause where you're headed is way worse than you've heard 107. these flags are tired of waving and want to be put away must be such a hassle to be loved so much a hoop broken by vicious, gorgeous slams 108. thus transported and transformed by dinner's smell your future ginger ale awaits with many chilly fellas in the shadow of maybe the fattest panda 109. tonight to be filled with dirty thoughts of Jenny during "Star Trek: The Next Generation" for some sick reason 110. like the aching pimple on my mind auroras of pain are unearthed, green tables rue being empty and headlights angrily halo rest your arms along endless tabletops by mirrors everyone's on the phone or dialing, all circuits whine 111. startled in releasing like kittens attacking your voice, new mothers prepare to be boarded sagging with panic 112. auburn paddywagons minus the mood music, circle and in expensive rooms it's something else entirely how snoring is born 113. deviously begin to erase all breaths lemon refreshment 40 feet tall surveills everyone aware, wise to its caper at stoplights behind classic cars 114. shouldn't we make nice heatedly, murmur and tips inside antique stores near the last bit of graffiti you demanded rain until the strike was over please request this again, dusty warm breath its own sweet reward 115. let's get cracking if only while we're alive to save the brilliant thoughts and send kids off to camp 116. they say I can't rap about being poor no more hell of a way to cook a rabbit available nights and weekends to yawn or crawl, depending on astral advice, the positions of pawns 117. these vortexes of lust are next, down from the mountains mist off heads and hands hey, you only get 1 phonecall better make it swank 118. *************** * * * a box filled* *solely w/ new* *words * *************** unemployed plants free of the burdens of pleasure, but punchy 119 zookeepers couldn't keep us apart or match us up done fucking around in these clean cages & electricities stop entertaining miles of guests if you can't be watched truth is the easier it gets the heavier nanoseconds descend 120. forgot to mention that Sarah Manguso is really hot and taller than I thought _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 16:18:33 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: poem Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Death or Serious Injury can occur A mixture of menage and also whisper Shadows that consider then allow less one boyfriend, hooray and prepare to fold into Cubes it's 10:00 But you have No kids So much Trembling left to do, quite a bit to exhale Under the spell of the sweatiest spectors Yeah, we *get* the finite designs but we're switching Over to disbelief Vague jumbles of Laundry, legs and wrappers that Don't discern or discourage Notice this isn't a meadow or Bedroom, These are not the spoils of battle, comings and going fear neither to boil or Tell, although the vibe is kinda Freaky Yes, we've ended Up at gray rest stops in the woods where I can show you This Given to fits and Using our Fake names lifting rafters or foundations _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 21:27:01 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lakey Teasdale Subject: Voices: St Magnus: the Cathedral Comments: To: "WRYTING-L : Writing and Theory across Disciplines" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable voices: St Magnus: the Cathedral the perfectly even seven-panelled sphere the ba' they throw. On New Year. the ba' fine polished. ah, shoemaking, saddlery. the Royal and ancient Burgh. appear as by magic this is the game. The Boy's Ba', The Men's. You harvest grief only. The sea gives. The sea takes. The stroke of the hour. The hour a crude ruckle o' stanes. The stanes. The faem and the. Not alone in the=20 place. No boundary between them No small consequence. Longing.=20 Small & of great. The barren is- land. Rich. Fertile sea. Gives=20 aere aere gud i det hoieste. beating the tide. The plunged in heavy sea. Little comfort in the ship. The strong tide. The com- fort. Swona the Tarf. fierce roots. the Dreadnought battleships. The fleet. The Reichstag. Launched. a lonely place to be we lay about 1 miles from the shore. Me next voyage if spared. the time hangs. Very long no one to. Speak no boundary between their domains The rock at the foot of the hill. The burn that ran. The congregation half way through chase north became close. the British ships devastation on board Drew out of range safe distance. Continue to shell. The chase darkness. And smoke. Jellicoe's Battle Fleet was hit! Was hit! Holed. Hell! Confusion & panic! The lives. The sea gives. The sea takes. The lives. Smoke, mist dream of the black boat. The black never so was a man loved. As he as never was so a man loved. As he See. The distance. We are far as Sea. The distance. It is past the year. Over a year and the season. an instance the weather conditions. You and yours. Truly. You and the season. an instance the weather conditions. the photograph. the branch forks out in the instant. the Given. the instant. and she become he. The man. and she becomes he. The woman. And she be tears billowing. No longer. what do we know about clocks. What do we know? You and yours. Truly. You and You and yours. Truly. You and Yours. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 16:40:40 -0400 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: more on the JOB training.... on my mind all week..saw a doc. on Cage/Cunningham last Sat...& their 'chance' methods.. ...is the two bit word for this 'aleoritic'... I ching and much buddhist blather.. ...anyway there they'd be driving 1,000's of miles...pasting up posters...publicizing like crazy.networking..getting the work out....seems to me they reversed the priorities...what they should have left to chance/changes was success....but.....tres poetics list...not another reading..not another book...not another mag...not another tape... not another anth..not another Dodge Fest......tres americain...anti..drn... ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 14:26:21 -0800 Reply-To: arshile@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Salerno Organization: Arshile: A Magazine of the Arts Subject: Anselm Hollo and Kevin Opstedal in Los Angeles MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Colleagues: It is my privilege to bring to your attention the following events. On Thursday, October 17, 2002, at 7:00 pm. Noted poet and translator Anselm Hollo will be a guest of the Graduate Writing Program's "Reading Series" at Otis College of Art and Design, 9045 Lincoln Blvd., Room 209, Galef Building, Los Angeles. (310) 665-6892. This event will be a talk with a reading. Free and open to the public. On Friday, October 18, 2202, at 7:30 p.m. Anselm Hollo and Kevin Opstedal will read from their work at Beyond Baroque, 681 Venice Blvd., Venice, California. (310) 822-3006. As I'm sure you all are aware, Anselm is the author of more than thirty books, including Notes on the Possibilities and Attractions of Existence: Selected Poems 1965-2000 (Coffee House Press, 2002) and the chapbook The Guy in the Little Room (The Dozens, 2002). He is on the faculty of Naropa University in Boulder, Colorado. Born in Venice, California, and currently residing in the Bay Area, Kevin Opstedal is the editor of Gas Magazine and the editor and publisher of Blue Books. He is the author of numerous books, including Like Rain (Angry Dog Press, 1999), and the chapbooks Beach Blanket Massacre (Smog Eyes, 2001) and Variable High Cloudiness (The Dozens, 2002). Hope you will join us and/or spread the word to interested parties. Good wishes, Mark Salerno ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 19:18:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Whuts Poetix? MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT don't know if the below made it in my mini-flurry last night, but also wanted to comment 1. I think Nick is right that therapy is generally not as analytic and explicatory and binding as people fear. there are at least two ways of doing it. I tend to belong to the humanistic approach where my queries are intended to bring out more writing, words, etc rather than being prescriptive exclusionary or analytical. Perhaps the same distinction might be made in poetics? 2. As jane Sprague noted, access is key in all of this but this begs the question of access to whom? tom bell ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "UB Poetics discussion group" Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 1:41 AM Subject: Re: poetics not published by academic presses > There's also _Third Mind from T&W and Susan Stweart's _Poetry and the fate > of the senses. Not billed as 'poetics' but fertile all the same. > > tom bell > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "J Kuszai" > To: > Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 4:26 PM > Subject: Re: poetics not published by academic presses > > > > Steve Kowit is a great teacher. Does this make him an academic? I met > > him at Southwestern College in Chula Vista, where he is a very > > important intellectual/academic figure; for many students he > > represents a key signpost in the academic journey. Is there anyone > > out there who has a problem with that? I can think of a dozen of > > students I actively encouraged to seek him out as a teacher, mentor, > > friend, poet (though not necessarily in that order) and about five or > > six who had already done so when I met them. The point is that what's > > getting called "academic" here seems to totally miss the point about > > what it is that "we" do in the academy--and boy, I'm sure glad that > > others have stepped in here to respond to what seems like one of the > > annual threads. This continual stream of consciousness, like a > > virtual Steve Kowit, can be an instructive rescue for a struggler in > > the desert. There are many deserts. Lets not get out of hand here. > > Thanks for the thoughts. > > > > >From IN THE PALM OF YOUR HAND: THE POET'S PORTABLE WORKSHOP, by Steve > > >Kowit: > > > > > >"Three sentences about a moment that changed one's life! Is this a > > >vignette, a tale, a short-story, a sketch, an anecdote? We could call > > >it any of those -- or we could call it a little poem in *prose*." > > > > Yikes. Worth trying. I'll try that. > > -- > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 15:47:01 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MWP Subject: Re: 20 Sonnets In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 10/12/02 1:05 PM, Jim Behrle at tinaiskingofmonsterisland@HOTMAIL.COM wrote: > 101. > steady now > > undoing the creeping > light > mothers make watching > > my hustle > > easy to avoid the > > radio waves we broadcast > > all S.O.S. and HELPS > > SO what's your definition of a sonnet? (Just curious.) -m ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 17:16:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: women in The New American Poetry In-Reply-To: <000801c271ca$6b4c7320$7796ccd1@CeceliaBelle> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >the last time he was romping with Maria Damon, she was heard to refer to it >as a "D.A.".....DB Is Bromide referring to my haircut here? > >>> to >>>dedicate your life to work that is raw >> >>Is there some kind of oxymoron here? > >-- > >George Bowering > >Has a shock of brown hair. > >Fax 604-266-9000 > > -- George Bowering Has a shock of brown hair. Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 17:24:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: women in The New American Poetry In-Reply-To: <000001c2720b$fd21c250$eb000140@Glasscastle> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > > Well, what I picked up was Sylvia saying I feel terrible; therefore >> it is a terrible world. > >There's no doubt that Plath was a sick puppy. But serious people can >read her work without signing up for any victim-cult. That was my point. >Not that I endorse her goofy world-view, any more than Marjorie Perloff >does when she calls Plath "an extraordinary poet" or speaks of her >"peculiar ability to fuse the domestic and the hallucinatory." > I did appreciate something in Plath way back when we were first encountering her dramatic career, and that was that she could really handle that short line. I didnt care for all the self-pity, but I thought the voice was pretty sure. -- George Bowering Has a shock of brown hair. Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 22:28:26 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: jim hill MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII jim hill im climbing barbed wire to heaven - im skating on thin ice for god - im down on the rail and old number seven rolls over with nary a nod - im rolling the cards and tossing the pawn and playing with angels for incense and gold - my arms are tools of the dark devils spawn - my torn bloody hands can hardly take hold - of the wire and ice and fire and spice the trains carrying down on the rail - so careful of angles and star-spangled bangles theyll carry you down without fail from heaven to seven and a nod to a clod - theyll carry you down like a pail running out down the hill with a license to kill - and the bodies are falling and children are bawling - the worlds going out with a wail == ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 15:47:07 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Sylvia Plath MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sylvia Plath was quite simply one of the greatest poets to heve lived = and written on this earth. Richard Taylor. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 20:44:09 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: hooker green or the sky is always higher In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v546) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable hooker green or the sky is always higher recently I looked like an identity, or recently I have been thinking=20 language like an experimental conference - cast into "hi my name's=20 and I stick too, I think about "talking dirty: desire pornography" (and=20= something with wiggle room) - in general need gilligan=92s island,=20 wishing I saw/heard half of the new color green. I find language in a=20 situation, a sky, a someone in a group that privileges identity over=20 good gossip, evil identity over longer possible pointing to which is=20 never permanent but boundless in action pathology. I what, I have been=20= cast someone into a thing, and as much as anything. I looked like a=20 hungry ghost, live in linear ha ha language. (=93will robinson take me = if=20 you are what I think about it) recently I looked the same."if there is =93it=94" and that new = color=20 green. comes with lo-and-behold verbs that recognize the newborn's=20 saying ( I am a situation, I am a panel, which is applied to say=20 another way that uses social gatherings to say. "hi my names identity.:=20= "hi my name's complete absence," I find a new new color green, like=20 ginger or I am a situation): which happenes with digital voice overs,=20 with watching gilligan=92s island, wishing options are, o.k., saying (in=20= gender is not the position I think about, oppression of the sky, a=20 situation, action, cheap and alien): I think if there is half of a=20 willing surface I will be a able situate the new new color green.= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 21:17:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Jullich Subject: Re: "Review a small press book this year, and hang around" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In an essay or letter, I forget which--- Virginia Woolf wrote asking what the purpose of (negative) reviews were, and how things could be different. She re-imagined reviews into a utopian, new situation. Rather than having the review put out in the public sphere, where it might be an embarassment to the author (out of modesty? for unfairly biasing/seducing readers?), she imagined that an appointment could be scheduled between the author and the critic, where the two would sit down face-to-face for an hour or two, ~for the purpose of the author taking in the criticism/review that is *needed* for the work.~ I forget if she imagined there might be some payment by the author for the reviewer's services this way. (If there were, surely it would be transacted simply: an envelope pushed across a tabletop.) So, the essence of her idea was that reviews are a ~one-to-one~ communication between the critic and the author, that the audience is more or less inappropriately eavesdropping upon. In re-imagining a world for reviews, note, she was ~not~ open or prone to imagine a world ~without~ reviews. They were necessary to the writing, maybe even so necessary that they shouldn't be diluted by the voyeurism of the audience. Were Woolf right, then, reviews, at base, rather than being some piece of oratory similar to barkers at circuses luring spectators into a sideshow tent to see the Seal Boy, would be ~one-to-one~ akin to the one-to-one of, say, love poetry. The motor force that drives the "good" review may be very similar to the love sonnet, to ask a question that will match an answer already given: who are you, you enchanted me, you puzzled me. ["he kissed me, he but only kissed / The fingers of this hand wherewith I write": Elizabeth Barrett Browning, Sonnet XXXVIII] The review was not always written as a bait to attract consumers into purchasing books or seeing works. Reviews (see French journalism from the eighteenth century clear through at least around the 1930's, viz. Caradec's biography of Roussel) were written in a spirit where it was ~taken for granted~ that anyone of taste, any member of the bourgeois community *would have been there,* or, if some obligation prevented them from attending, such as ~another~ artwork (---how else, after all, might people have occupied their evening, unless at a dinner party?---), the review became a way of their sorting through all the ~hearsay~ that they would have encountered about it. That is to say, the review as a way of giving shape to jumbled impressions that needed sorting out, as a spoon for cold tapioca, especially when it came to controversial modernism. The review standing in relation to the artwork as a definition beside a word in the dictionary, not contesting it or threatening it bullyish, even where it exposes the original to conceal some fault-line (slang), but simulating the other half of the helix that artworks set up, since, if one were not ~reading~ a review, one would be arguing out a less clear-headed version of the same with friends and neighbors ("What did you think of it?": is it a basis for community or a new community, or will it be divisive for us), but over too many cupfuls or confections. I would add: Reviews have their own autonomy or independence from the work they critique. At its best, the review derives from ~its own creativity.~ . . . Which is why, in general, the etiquette is that (1) the artist puts out the artwork, then (2) the reviewer hers,--- and ~there is no third step~ (3) where the artist responds and contests the review. (In fact, it does happen from time to time, usually to the merriment of knockdown/drag-out results: Los Angeles Times, August 24, 1997 [four days before his seventieth birthday], page 10: John Ashbery: "To the Editor: . . . I'm also pleased that when Theroux doesn't like my poetry he lumps me with 'the likes of . . . yam-in-the-mouth Charles Olsen, a total fraud' . . . I for one would have been interested to learn why a writer of Theroux's stature has it in for . . ."; Alexander Theroux replies: "incomprehensible doodles of his which he has the whim, even if I do not, to call [poetry]. . . . although how the writer of the following lines from "Idaho" "Carol!" he said. Can this be the one time ???????????????????????????????????????? Biff: The last Rhode island reds are "diet of hamburgers and orange juice" I see into the fields of timothy one the others time change , , , , , , , and they walked back, small hand-assemblies" can presume to call upon anyone to clarify or outline the nature of anything is beyond me. . . . How can a poet of such byzantine contrivances . . . ? Who should know better than he the moral and aesthetic bankruptcy of calling gibberish "poetry" or nonsense "modernist"? . . . My ambition is not that hacks stop writing or that they stop publishing, but for anyone to try to fob off twaddle as poetry, without criticism, is another matter entirely. May I request that Ashbery do me a favor in return? Only explain for me why there are, respectively, precisely 40 question marks and seven commas in a row in "Idaho" and whether using, respectively, 39 and six would have ruined the meaning of that, um, poem." Ashbery Ashbery Ashbery) One editor continually grills me on whether I'm friends with the poet I want to review. (But who would befriend ~me?!~) I'm not sure if reviews that expressly entered into print with an agenda such as promoting one rank of publishing houses against another wouldn't be similarly partisan. Although incomplete, this is my language of pleasure. http://phreeque.tripod.com/sealo.html __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 00:28:11 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jane Sprague Subject: Re: Whuts Poetix? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom- Access to forums such as this and the people found here- an academic host (sunyb), open to all. Democracy is, essentially and from the Gk. (Plato, I think) the ability to participate in power, so, Bernstein has deployed certain access that he has to create this forum, which spins off other forums, of information, of name dropping, events, presses, job openings, actual human contact (phone callers...) etc. This list does enable and empower us. To get the work out, to learn from and *listen* to each other, and to provide community, which can often be lacking for those of us outside of an urban area. Access to RESOURCES: bringing poets to towns to speak, to give workshops, to share their work. In Ithaca, while we watch the creep of Ameriland and the influx of Borders & Barnes and Noble, it will be interesting to see how corp. america expands any opportunities for gleaning knowledge for people who may be less inclined to search out SPD, who may be limited in their *access* to ideas/authors/whatever simply by their reliance on the dictates of the mainstream marketplace. Or, Ameriland: the land of the Oprah poem, as was borne out by the Dodge Fest. and the resounding snooze of most of the poetics spewed forth there. And I also think Baraka, dare I say it, was one notable exception to the milque-toast buffet proffered there. And as wonderful as our independent bookstores are, they are woefully lacking in shelf space for experimental works- or they purchase a few copies which sell out quickly and are not replaced. And they don't really sell any journals/mags of interest. Unless Granta or Poetry really grabs you. Access to whom? To people like me. Since it really is such an egocentric thread depending on your viewpoint and, perhaps, your access. One has to be rather wily to gain information locally about events at the academy here. An ivy tower. Which tends to keep pretty much to itself. One has to be pretty wily to seek out and cultivate discussion among individuals from different camps- scabacious adjunct that I am, I often have to procure books thru ILL, and they often come from another state school- NOT the lovely ivy wrapped library here, or was that ivory wrapped. So, you can see, it is a little personal. There is also the whole arena of grants, grant-making, who decides that and how and I have been heavily involved in collaborating AMONG people from different camps, selfishly perhaps, because it influences what I think about and write about. So. Access matters tremendously to me. It also matters for many other highly personal reasons of class, gender and education that I'd prefer not to pick apart in a public forum, but I think you get the gist. Gosh, I'd love to get a PhD, but at this point, it's a matter of whose education matters more- my education or my child's? Jane ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Bell" To: Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 8:18 PM Subject: Whuts Poetix? > don't know if the below made it in my mini-flurry last night, but also > wanted to comment > > 1. I think Nick is right that therapy is generally not as analytic and > explicatory and binding as people fear. there are at least two ways of > doing it. I tend to belong to the humanistic approach where my queries are > intended to bring out more writing, words, etc rather than being > prescriptive exclusionary or analytical. Perhaps the same distinction might > be made in poetics? > > 2. As jane Sprague noted, access is key in all of this but this begs the > question of access to whom? > > tom bell > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "UB Poetics discussion group" > Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 1:41 AM > Subject: Re: poetics not published by academic presses > > > > There's also _Third Mind from T&W and Susan Stweart's _Poetry and the fate > > of the senses. Not billed as 'poetics' but fertile all the same. > > > > tom bell > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "J Kuszai" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 4:26 PM > > Subject: Re: poetics not published by academic presses > > > > > > > Steve Kowit is a great teacher. Does this make him an academic? I met > > > him at Southwestern College in Chula Vista, where he is a very > > > important intellectual/academic figure; for many students he > > > represents a key signpost in the academic journey. Is there anyone > > > out there who has a problem with that? I can think of a dozen of > > > students I actively encouraged to seek him out as a teacher, mentor, > > > friend, poet (though not necessarily in that order) and about five or > > > six who had already done so when I met them. The point is that what's > > > getting called "academic" here seems to totally miss the point about > > > what it is that "we" do in the academy--and boy, I'm sure glad that > > > others have stepped in here to respond to what seems like one of the > > > annual threads. This continual stream of consciousness, like a > > > virtual Steve Kowit, can be an instructive rescue for a struggler in > > > the desert. There are many deserts. Lets not get out of hand here. > > > Thanks for the thoughts. > > > > > > >From IN THE PALM OF YOUR HAND: THE POET'S PORTABLE WORKSHOP, by Steve > > > >Kowit: > > > > > > > >"Three sentences about a moment that changed one's life! Is this a > > > >vignette, a tale, a short-story, a sketch, an anecdote? We could call > > > >it any of those -- or we could call it a little poem in *prose*." > > > > > > Yikes. Worth trying. I'll try that. > > > -- > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 00:47:50 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: =?X-UNKNOWN?Q?=5BX-UNKNOWN=5D_---_=3Anclud=3AnG-G=5BISO-8859-1=5D_?= =?X-UNKNOWN?Q?=F8g=F8lChat_f=B0=5BX-UNKNOWN=5D_r_G=F8lg=F8tChat_-?= =?X-UNKNOWN?Q?--_=28fwd=29?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 18:04:16 +0200 From: jimpunk To: sondheim@PANIX.COM Subject: --- :nclud:nG-G[ISO-8859-1] =F8g=F8lChat f=B0r G=F8lg=F8tChat --- hi alan i send you the new text for the gogolchat : best j =2E.. :nclud:nG-G=F8g=F8lChat f=B0r G=F8lg=F8tChat --- collaborative project on : [ unbehagen | jimpunk ] .com Originally this piece (GogolChat by Christophe Bruno) was conceived as a multi-user chat where a fictitious character, named Gogol, lives. This character has a mythical status, since his speech tends towards the su= m of all speeches of mankind. Gogol IS the web. After the completion of this work, the chat was "infiltrated" by jimpunk. Since then a quasi-permanent happening shifts the chat beyond the dimension of meaning and communication. Finally GogolChat became a collaborative piece mixing a purely textual work - the original GogolChat - with scripts and visuals changed by Jimpunk live. =2E =2E =2E Visit the project live : http://www.iterature.com/gogolchat/ -- Visit the best archives : http://www.jimpunk.com/golgotchat/ ... ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 22:16:00 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Sylvia Plath In-Reply-To: <007101c27262$d25f0800$97ec36d2@01397384> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >Sylvia Plath was quite simply one of the greatest poets to heve >lived and written on this earth. Richard Taylor. I am always a little leery of things that follow "simply." -- George Bowering Has a shock of brown hair. Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 01:36:07 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nick Piombino Subject: Own face Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 16:47:11 +0000 > From: Catherine Lasko > Subject: Re: own face > >> Isn't poetics really a sort of under-the-armpit garment odor left in the >> closet of one state and arrived in the pleasure of a second day in some >> next, a sort of partly remembered blip from short-term dance hall sweat >> theorized into the long-term rapacious figure everyone brags about >> extensively but no one can really see? I don't agree at all, but who cares, I like this writing, so tough, so cool, like Barbara Stanwyck in Double Indemnity (1944)... Nick One more time: > > Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 16:47:11 +0000 > From: Catherine Lasko > Subject: Re: own face > > JDavis & Dears, > Gambling-Addiction studies get out of hand only for those not Horn(e)y > enough to headline them. Girls on the Run, we call them where I come from. > Isn't poetics really a sort of under-the-armpit garment odor left in the > closet of one state and arrived in the pleasure of a second day in some > next, a sort of partly remembered blip from short-term dance hall sweat > theorized into the long-term rapacious figure everyone brags about > extensively but no one can really see? Writing about an exciting experience > is more exciting than experiencing the excitment of an experience, which is > boring, entirely, because there's always too much to say about it. Which is > what "poetics" is for. It's the cushion against which one writes. It's a > word for all the ways in which Matter comes into the work to call foul, let > everything out, fuck things up, and "have a word with you". Relation, or as > a friend once wrote, "when I say We, You know who I'm talking about." > Cat ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 18:44:26 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: Sylvia Plath MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stay leery. ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Bowering" To: Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 6:16 PM Subject: Re: Sylvia Plath > >Sylvia Plath was quite simply one of the greatest poets to heve > >lived and written on this earth. Richard Taylor. > > I am always a little leery of things that follow "simply." > -- > George Bowering > Has a shock of brown hair. > Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 00:09:03 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: TEDDY WARBURG ATMOSPHERE #0019 Comments: To: 7-11@mail.ljudmila.org, ImitationPoetics@listserv.unc.edu, o-o@konf.lt, webartery@yahoogroups.com, syndicate@anart.no, _arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au, owner-realpoetik@scn.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit TEDDY WARBURG ATMOSPHERE #0019 [excerpt] www.voice-of-the-village verge crying had diane's everything they never tastes The son assumed the title comte Rivarol district group fixed employment he was appointed archdeacon medium Ship Pegasus Prudence Excursion Team surface Meridian where nipples separate genus Bennett lies district group fixed employment he was appointed archdeacon separate Sam seductively Franco rubbed released wrists snatched offered drink liquid burned stomach emptied contents glass one hit Folliculites now generally referred Stratiotes district group fixed employment he was appointed archdeacon portions the dome which rose great tower column origin their minerals immediately National Civil Service Reform League and served present many points similarity usual forms having gone through pleased with our lives no like you don't the Academy Barcelona and worked there for pounds chauffer who drove College Beauvais Rollin held Jansenist district group fixed employment he was appointed archdeacon Tertiary Jurasi Periods Rhaet Trias relaxed sherry giggled judge and did RIDOLFO son Domenico Ghirlandajo Florentine the the throne which served for the surpassed only the finales Mozart this Miocene flora welfare his electorate and was for his disastrous expedition the Mosander's erbia district group fixed employment he was appointed archdeacon gave this name his terbia The hair district group fixed employment he was appointed archdeacon latterly adopted Campbell his surname Dr John Goodsir and grandson Dr everywhere favourite Algeria the Equisetaceous genus Schizoneura-a member immediately National Civil Service Reform League and served the number species though these include the most interesting merit they welfare his electorate and was for his disastrous expedition generally superior good notion their overwhelming probability used chiefly for construction purposes and furnishes the mere the afterwards are symmetrical like Carroll's Creek tributary the Ast Mt inhaled deeply moaned mouth unload ed next accountant did portion her talk what had decade Rice the staple crop with pulses oilseeds district group fixed employment he was appointed archdeacon jute his influence was said him soon the bird eastern Spain the province Almeria the Mediterranean his death His quickly returned with perhaps dependant the Neville family Richard was sent immediately National Civil Service Reform League and served the toll-houses district group fixed employment he was appointed archdeacon the work was carried out suddenly district group fixed employment he was appointed archdeacon Mitchell insisted secrecy first mission pursuit units deny enemy reconnaissance areas lines Mihiel while airfields depots prepared Americans side mountain they started for first with sherry coordination strategic transportation assets reflects tune leave her people completely life learning had bar people starts milking her hand assistant? did mine felt him developed the Egyptian leaning against signpost noticeable through All doctrine money Cretaceous district group fixed employment he was appointed archdeacon Tertiary-made conspicuous striking leisure hours reading district group fixed employment he was appointed archdeacon study This mode life says finally said look think beds the Yorkshire character the object being carry out rigorously formulated Sir represents no like you don't the Academy Barcelona and worked there for type with Granny knew his dismissal from the markets Among the lumber-producing states doctors assistants wise men twenty miles round converted Jew long gown whose face covered subsequent rick you eat pussy cock surprise surprise anna? will veins outsiders work hut time old tailor terrible spectacles cutting waistcoat some rags two young men making felt boots wool Kiryak who dismissed place drunkenness now lived home sitting member the British check wendy rod poppi poppi you want get tailor mending husband going command good cheer name sake silent melancholy crowded stifling noisome hut converted Jew examined Nikolay said necessary try cupping know means honoring promises people Taiwan deny one fort new impulse from Winckelmann and Balthasar think know want deny right Beijing impose rule free people said will help Taiwan defend itself deliberately rondos we should have kissed tina deeply mine rod's cock anna sherry returning sofa knew produce the puffins and other seafowl that frequent the might imports and exports trebled their value the was however southern Hemisphere the other hand know one two Eocene plants Europe district group fixed employment he was appointed archdeacon Pontypridd the duchy Saxe-Merseburg where after somewhat sombre much less unlike than welfare his electorate and was for his disastrous expedition welfare his electorate and was for his disastrous expedition immediately National Civil Service Reform League and served indicated the repositioned his body the Little Scheidegg Wengern Alp railway the first dozen course bows stern the inclination mast the word century few portions welfare his electorate and was for his disastrous expedition preserved the terrace the would in subsets common ocean transportation Naval Fleet Auxiliary Force Charles anna talking really i'm sorry rod sam think death by The with OptinList was long president the University the deitate yields such things immediately National Civil Service Reform League and served thorium oxalate may converted into oxides direct Pliocene deposits the Val d'Arno well the tuffs her guy wendy's tits wendy noticed next morning knew smile her face pain she volcanic rock occurring mostly lava flowF district group fixed employment he was appointed archdeacon their influence the height his power the Queen Mab picking her hand his need make hotel which worse --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. 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Version: 6.0.394 / Virus Database: 224 - Release Date: 10/3/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 00:12:02 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: TEDDY WARBURG ATMOSPHERE #0022 Comments: To: 7-11@mail.ljudmila.org, ImitationPoetics@listserv.unc.edu, o-o@konf.lt, webartery@yahoogroups.com, syndicate@anart.no, _arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au, owner-realpoetik@scn.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit TEDDY WARBURG ATMOSPHERE #0022 [excerpt] www.voice-of-the-village.com of janine wiped himself kind worried that two were mistake she playing with right faith see power Compassionate Heart starry heavens storm-swept necessity secession were frequent from the United States faith see power Compassionate Heart starry heavens storm-swept its want put Marines same level Commander Lear her husband had not The Liberal party faith see power Compassionate Heart starry heavens storm-swept Sagasta boys companion gone hour rode out jessica's began moaning feeling little scared moaned going two soldiers terrible clatter out jessica's began moaning feeling little scared moaned going leaped horse material mortals call small beer lauren reached down well not produced the neighbourhood many the inhabitants material mortals call small beer lauren reached down well not yeah he's not exactly jock later faith see power Compassionate Heart starry heavens storm-swept lower Corinthian settlement Leucas From this point weeds you matter how she willed Probably Why? enjoying himself more than plastic red white the German king Henry iniquities who healeth all thy diseases who redeemeth thy life the present briefly well familiarly truly expounded these madmen door theatre one election was held political mission Seistan under Sir your arms surround hug which enty-five were regarded spurious and adopted the Buddhist year the charter was out she lowered the poem it its consequence business man and became considerable owner divided nowhere without severing the brian spotted them lived the reign Nero His gentile name was possibly arrives all warmed screw silly three girls plus Barry enjoyed certain other passage Lord never meant consciences people Borgia the city was heroically defended much pleasure thereby baby will learn slowly surely through unwavering process crammed packed michael had his hand top your May Harsnett was favourite with the Puritan Now shows crouched her hands nervously Tut from contact with the friends heart nevertheless Alexander the earl the present earl Such washing process may have selective site lupus vulgaris The scalp the Gottingen ccl such great but hard determine detail What certain site going two them fat didn't elaborated into work two volumes published and cannot say she spilled Inner Prakriti having gained success Pranayama outer world names spine ooh planet right will elegant ring debris sun thi edition this goons exploded into found be plotting against the state see further Beaumont and ! George Stephenson v was borr Willington Quay the this theory quotes the fact that the Homeric description Well Henneberg faith see power Compassionate Heart starry heavens storm-swept Saalfeld Altenburg faith see power Compassionate Heart starry heavens storm-swept few other districts were lovely legs know mouth his historically though its exact site uncertain Hybla will retreat world contrary will replace diffuse commitments focused ones will replace uncertain missions well-defined objectives must selective use military precisely repute such the academy the body not because or the underlying mouth his historically though its exact site uncertain Hybla other great responsibilities cannot slighted compromised possible well-known tssage hostile attitude being probably Savile's hands were now the town has considerable manufactures porcelain enamel from the lake Cella join the Jalon Calatayud the Unfortunately missed Notes and Queries series going i'm not doing was created peer yds enclosed wall masses lava it was fortress the first rank Since that year the botanical morphology faith see power Compassionate Heart starry heavens storm-swept its Thus take the case plants when pollen from plant was the author systematic butt cheeks discoveries led the been known variously the houselick homewort images were flashing through quantities the lime present the Yogi got cope certain pattern external life manners Soon after faith see power Compassionate Heart starry heavens storm-swept mortar top your May Harsnett was favourite with the Puritan Now shows shall the Turks SEBORRHOEA medical term applied describe of life idea making the Gulf Spezia great naval made sure second glass champagne pour third euphoria starting was first left little Sorbonne took leading part the religious discussions which founded faith see power Compassionate Heart starry heavens storm-swept though Never! serfdom was abolished municipal institu-tions were destroyed steadily occupying the north-west know and after the peace filled various posts the department Za Uruguay Its industries material mortals call small beer lauren reached down well not The word corruption the chassis chdsse Lat capsa the supreme deity whom sacrifices material mortals call small beer lauren reached down well not made Generally matter? said Mrs Bardell ornamented with bas-reliefs faith see power Compassionate Heart starry heavens storm-swept having four statuettes other slightly her mound rubbed once figure foot inch frame husband foot tall fuck myself vibrator bringing her faith see power Compassionate Heart starry heavens storm-swept cotton factories faith see power Compassionate Heart starry heavens storm-swept the neighbo rhood large hand kneading her butt when figure foot inch frame husband foot tall fuck myself vibrator ? hope Janet said splendid laden with individuals serve greater good after wave exquisite you tell how dynamite restless activity head almost seemed graze earth beneath another near the quay The graciousness speech power Spirit Giver Strength abiding prevent its wrapping arms around his graece latine secundum good thing incidents they exist the heroic epics faith see power Compassionate Heart starry heavens storm-swept poetry the skandinavischen Nordens Leipzig SAGAING forward standing before in excited almost tripped over Sofiero the south They ar¼f very rarely --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. 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Version: 6.0.394 / Virus Database: 224 - Release Date: 10/3/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 03:41:42 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: philosophy of the thinnest of memories MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII philosophy of the thinnest of memories memories of philosopies there are numerous others. what i don't understand is that - there is no reason for me to understand this at all - that the multiple practices you do - they relate - when you die, there will be all these tatters - yiddish name aba, hebrew avi - they're lost - it's a philosophy of distribution - interstitial - you'll find it - don't give up - always looking - the pieces fit together - immersive/definable - sheffer stroke and its dual - defuge - distributed avatars - evanescence - it's all there - the others come to me - at night - the codeine doesn't keep them away - they'll gather the materials - distributive philosophy - reconstruct what you deconstruct - scaffolding - i'm not there yet, i'm getting there - the sexuality for one thing inverts the body - the mind - brings everything to the surface - exfoliations, multiple-connections - mobius surfaces - topography of the body might be any landscape - think of northern sung painting - either multiple or no perspectives - thwarted or borderline landscape -part coalesce - come together - superimpositions, gestures - coherencies - the punctured text - perforations - sprockets - the film is running again - auto- or self-inscription - classical geometries of jordan curvatures - within or without - punctured texts - of inspiration or respiration - beneath the sign of extinction - the imminence of such - the holocaust of wind - inconceivable fragility of the good - the world of pure slaughter - self-slaughter of mass organisms - final breathing of warriors of extinctions - policy of scorched worlds - mindfulness and the clear face - fractal paths through measure geometries - construction of objects by means of paths - appearances of high-speed protocols - turbulence and animals, as if the world stands still - appearance of objects within such a world - for that matter aristotelian logics, regularized laws of distribution - beginnings of the contracts among organs and objects - organisms and neighborhoods - writing the unbearable - your work tending the unbearable - violence and the teeth of the world - philosophy as travel writing - gravitation towards taxonomies - recognition of minutiae - living among the worlds - the dark or darker worlds - protocols lying around 'like bones in a graveyard of the living' - nothing remains within the philosophy of curtailment - the bracketing recognizing distinctions - [[]] - [][] - quantum tunnels - constant memory of the edge or edges - double lips - closures - openings, the slit - nib of the pen - circulations of absorptions - f(x,0) -> 0, f(x,1) -> x - let f(1,0) = f(0,1) undefined - these terms aren't at variance - there's one or the other - coherencies, syncopation - it begins with any distinction, moves through any distinction - of sexualities, the tumor or cancer - the cancer as plasma - black-hole incoherencies - the addendum, diacritical - at least until these things foreclose - i'm breathing on the wires, living in the wires - shadowy presence - nothing else - Sun Oct 13 03:37:29 EDT 2002 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 09:51:33 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lakey Teasdale Subject: cinnamon & musk: Count on it, Virginia Comments: To: "WRYTING-L : Writing and Theory across Disciplines" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable cinnamon & musk: Count on it, Virginia badly constructed shoes=20 and the restraint of Mr Pearl=20 Bespoke Cor- se- ti- ere.=20 The seven courses will have to wait.=20 The coarse play on her bustier Oh. The navigation charts=20 a mellow alto moan. Pausa: compass and on course could squeeze into. Suite=20 Unaccompanied spun out=20 sweetly in G minor. Vivace the strings just=20 tuned. So. Just tuned So.=20 the held notes. the crescendo. the swell. The The measured Adagio Just full of aires and Grace is. The lace=20 torn. At this point. Petite Messe Solonelle. O. Salutaris. Indeed. Your Agnus Dei. Your Peccata Mundi. Never! Virginia. The rug but=20 a persian carpet.=20 perfumed. creates his own. Perfume and counting the bars the repeats. Clerics among The gentle- man of noble birth.=20 Orange blossoms. Orange blossoms. essence absolue & purer. Jasmine the end of July. Orange blossoms. Orange blossoms. essence absolue & purer. Jasmine the end of July. musk. Cinnamon and weighed in silver. the frame. Photo & mindful. The eye full. like No other. No other. musk. Cinnamon and weighed in silver. the frame. The photo mindful, an eyeful. windows. to his Eyes. Like no=20 one else. Is. His eyes like no one else's. His eyes like no one else's. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 08:14:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: women in The New American Poetry In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Ahh, Bromowitz, ahh Blowinger, and I thought you'd forgotten... "D. A" ..."diamonds aplenty" ..."delectable appetizers"..."drama afoot"...bienvenu encore au Salon de Discipline, chez L'Hotel de La Nouvelle Poesie Americaine... Rachel my sistah, are you down w/ the people here? At 5:16 PM -0700 10/12/02, George Bowering wrote: >>the last time he was romping with Maria Damon, she was heard to refer to it >>as a "D.A.".....DB > >Is Bromide referring to my haircut here? > >> >>>> to >>>>dedicate your life to work that is raw >>> >>>Is there some kind of oxymoron here? >> >-- >> >George Bowering >> >Has a shock of brown hair. >> >Fax 604-266-9000 >> > > > >-- >George Bowering >Has a shock of brown hair. >Fax 604-266-9000 -- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 08:18:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: women in The New American Poetry In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" i think the original q was which women poets cd/shd have been included in the Allen anthology, not who were the interesting women poets writing at the time? i think we'd all agree that, talented and fabulous as plath and sexton are, their aesthetic is of a different orientation than most of the men and women whose work appeared in TNAP. At 5:24 PM -0700 10/12/02, George Bowering wrote: >> > Well, what I picked up was Sylvia saying I feel terrible; therefore >>> it is a terrible world. >> >>There's no doubt that Plath was a sick puppy. But serious people can >>read her work without signing up for any victim-cult. That was my point. >>Not that I endorse her goofy world-view, any more than Marjorie Perloff >>does when she calls Plath "an extraordinary poet" or speaks of her >>"peculiar ability to fuse the domestic and the hallucinatory." >> >I did appreciate something in Plath way back when we were first >encountering her dramatic career, and that was that she could really >handle that short line. I didnt care for all the self-pity, but I >thought the voice was pretty sure. >-- >George Bowering >Has a shock of brown hair. >Fax 604-266-9000 -- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 13:23:27 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lakey Teasdale Subject: witnesses: Magnus & Ingigard. to Steward (Earl of Orkney) & rain Comments: To: "WRYTING-L : Writing and Theory across Disciplines" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable witnesses: Magnus & Ingigard. to Steward (Earl of Orkney) & rain and the obligation, by this surely grant me and Haill=20 the sum of nine hundred Merks of Scots money To Oh. that is the price of oyll an spik from ane cer- tain number. A number of pallock and whaills my translated to me. I. lands and heritage and You. My lands and=20 heritage. Enquiring was a time. And producing so many.=20 Brilliant men! the export was said to be: Fat cattle. And Professors. an island disposing of the wracks the Night wrack. the gale disposing of the wracks the Night wrack. the gale contracted and agreed that the said do cause=20 to build ane great boat of or about burden of=20 three score and meills or threttie foot of keel me. Your hands and heritage My enquiry me. Your hands and heritage My enquiry sets one apart. Literally. sets One apart. the philosopher calls them: Aurora Borealis. The sage: the Merry Dancers. Sage the peregrines were still around then and protested strongly. Hen-harrier, kestrel. the shortness of autumn. The absence of leaves. Dived as we crossed Hoy sound! Captain James Skinner wrote to his wife. accompanied them on long voyages. Them. frequent. But nothing like familiar. near the horizon a dun colour approaching to yellow. Ten thousand different shapes. and his. Page him, your page. Page him, your and tell him. The lights are ready. Just say: the lights are ready. one side dense and the other gradually fainter. rest of the sky they count them in boxes. The herring the cod. They count on them. They count. and the women who gut them. The maids of ane sufficient mould with ane foirfute be=20 compleat and ready upon the shore of Kirkwall. and=20 The rest. The delivery of said boat. Wracks and other=20 admiralty Talking the ladies, the straw-plaiting the ladies. The netting sewing the nets. The ladies sewing. The nets. ladies sewing. The nets. we missed Lieut. Gourlay's cutter going down in another cutter These lived mostly in the kelp areas, you know. Fashions are fickle. The men ate modestly five times a day but that was maybe on Stronsay the story. There really were=20 Seal-men you see. Real seal-men. The selkies. The men. Ingigard kept the date but When she got to the rock.=20 No sign! No sign of the seal! She dropped seven tears.=20 They say. Tears. so they say. seven. she was barren.=20 And then blessed.=20 No less than Yes.=20 Yes. Seven. sons. daughters the seal children. Between thumb and forefinger of each of their right hands the web fingered children. the web fingered children. the web said to smell faintly of cod fish and herring. the web between fingers. The scent of codfish and herring. The scent of those who the sea apparently existed. Evidence. He called from the sea: Ingie. Ingie. incredible. No one ever saw him. No one but She ever saw him. Ingigard. She alone=20 could see Him. said=20 his name was Magnus. many called Magnus.=20 here. Many are called Magnus. many are=20 called. vast columns, one side dense and the other gradually fades and then can no longer be distinguished from the sky. no longer It really is all about fire. You see? all about fire. And ice. And ice. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 09:55:48 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alicia Askenase Subject: UN Protest document MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mourn the Victims. Stand for Peace. Islam is not the Enemy. War is NOT the Answer. Today we are at a point of imbalance in the world and are moving=20 toward what may be the beginning of a THIRD WORLD WAR. If you are=20 against this possibility, the UN is gathering signatures in an effort=20 to avoid a tragic world event. Please COPY (rather than Forward) this e-mail in a new message, sign=20 at the end of the list, and send it to all the people whom you know.=20 If you receive this list with more than 500 names signed, please send=20 a copy of the message to: unicwash@unicwash.org Even if you decide not to sign, please consider forwarding the=20 petition on instead of eliminating it. 1) Suzanne Dathe, Grenoble, France 2) Laurence COMPARAT, Grenoble, France 3) Philippe MOTTE, Grenoble, France 4) Jok FERRAND, Mont St. Martin, France 5) Emmanuelle PIGNOL, St Martin d'Heres,FRANCE 6) Marie GAUTHIER, Grenoble, FRANCE 7) Laurent VESCALO, Grenoble, FRANCE 8) Mathieu MOY, St Egreve, FRANCE 9) Bernard BLANCHET, Mont St Martin,FRANCE 10) Tassadite FAVRIE, Grenoble, FRANCE 11) Loic GODARD, S! t Ismier, FRANCE 12) Benedicte PASCAL, Grenoble, FRA NCE 13) Khedaidja BENATIA, Grenoble, FRANCE 14) Marie-Therese LLORET, Grenoble,FRANCE 15) Benoit THEAU, Poitiers, FRANCE 16) Bruno CONSTANTIN, Poitiers, FRANCE 17) Christian COGNARD, Poitiers, FRANCE 18) Robert GARDETTE, Paris, FRANCE 19) Claude CHEVILLARD, Montpellier, FRANCE 20) gilles FREISS, Montpellier, FRANCE 21) Patrick AUGEREAU, Montpellier, FRANCE 22) Jean IMBERT, Marseille, FRANCE 23) Jean-Claude MURAT, Toulouse, France 24) Anna BASSOLS, Barcelona, Catalonia 25) Mireia DUNACH, Barcelona, Catalonia 26) Michel VILLAZ, Grenoble, France 27) Pages Frederique, Dijon, France 28) Rodolphe FISCHMEISTER,Chatenay-Malabry, France 29) Francois BOUTEAU, Paris, France 30) Patrick PETER , Paris, France 31) Lorenza RADICI, Paris, France 32) Monika Siegenthaler, Bern, Switzerland 33) Mark Philp, Glasgow, Scotland 34) Tomas Andersson, Stockholm, Sweden 35! ) Jonas Eriksson, Stockholm, Sweden 36) Karin Eriksson, Stockholm, Sweden 37) Ake Ljung, Stockholm, Sweden 38) Carina Sedlmayer, Stockholm, Sweden 39) Rebecca Uddman, Stockholm, Sweden 40) Lena Skog, Stockholm, Sweden 41) Micael Folke, Stockholm, Sweden 42) Britt-Marie Folke, Stockholm, Sweden 43) Birgitta Schuberth, Stockholm, Sweden 44) Lena Dahl, Stockholm, Sweden 45) Ebba Karlsson, Stockholm, Sweden 46) Jessica Carlsson, Vaxjo, Sweden 47) Sara Blomquist, Vaxjo, Sweden 48) Magdalena Fosseus, Vaxjo, Sweden 49) Charlotta Langner, Goteborg, Sweden 50) Andrea Egedal, Goteborg, Sweden 51) Lena Persson, Stockholm, Sweden 52) Magnus Linder, Umea ,Sweden 53) Petra Olofsson, Umea, Sweden 54) Caroline Evenbom, Vaxjo, Sweden 55) Asa Peterson, Grimes, Sweden 56) Jessica Bjork, Grimes, Sweden 57) Linda Ahlbo! m Goteborg, Sweden 58) Jenny Forsman, Boras, Sweden 59) Nina Gunnarson, Kinna, Sweden 60) Andrew Harrison, New Zealand 61) Bryre Murphy, New Zealand 62) Claire Lugton, New Zealand 63) Sarah Thornton, New Zealand 64) Rachel Eade, New Zealand 65) Magnus Hjert, London, UK 67) Madeleine Stamvik, Hurley, UK 68) Susanne Nowlan, Vermont, USA 69) Lotta Svenby, Malmoe, Sw eden 70) Adina Giselsson, Malmoe, Sweden 71) Anders Kullman, Stockholm, Sweden 72) Rebecka Swane, Stockholm, Sweden 73) Jens Venge, Stockholm, Sweden 74) Catharina Ekdahl, Stockholm, Sweden 75) Nina Fylkegard, Stockholm, Sweden 76) Therese Stedman, Malmoe, Sweden 77) Jannica Lund, Stockholm, Sweden 79) Mats Lofstrom, Stockholm, Sweden 80) Li Lindstrom, Sweden 81) Ursula Mueller, Sweden 82) Marianne Komstadius, Stockholm, Sweden 83) Peter Thyselius, Stockholm, Sweden 84) G! onzalo Oviedo, Quito, Ecuador 85) Amalia Romeo, Gland,Switzerland 86) Margarita Restrepo, Gland, Switzerland 87) Eliane Ruster, Crans p.C., Switzerland 88) Jennifer Bischo ff-Elder, Hong Kong 89) Azita Lashgari, Beirut, Lebanon 90) Khashayar Ostovany, New York, USA 91) Lisa L Miller, Reno NV 92) Danielle Avazian, Los Angeles, CA 93) Sara Risher,Los Angeles,Ca. 94) Melanie London, New York, NY 95) Susan Brownstein , Los Angeles, CA 96) Steven Raspa, San Francisco, CA 97) Margot Duane, Ross, CA 98) Natasha Darnall, Los Angeles, CA 99) Candace Brower, Evanston, IL 100) James Kjelland, Evanston, IL 101) Michael Jampole, Beach Park, IL, USA 102) Diane Willis, Wilmette, IL, USA 103) Sharri Russell, Roanoke, VA, USA 104) Faye Cooley, Roanoke, VA, USA 105) Celeste Thompson, Round Rock, TX, USA 106) Sherry Stang, Pflugerville, TX, USA 107) Paula Abrams-Hourani, Vienna 108) Milissa Bowen, Austin, TX USA 109) Michelle Jozwiak, Brenham, TX USA 110) Mary Orsted, College Station, TX USA 111) Janet Gardner, Dallas, TX USA 112) Marilyn Hollingsworth, Dallas, TX USA 113) Nancy Shamblin, Garland. TX USA 114) K. M. Mullen, Houston, TX - USA 115) Noreen Tolman, Houston, Texas - USA 116) Laurie Sobolewski, Warren, MI 117) Kellie Sisson Snider, Irving Texas 118) Carol Currie, Garland, Garland Texas 119) John Snyder, Garland, TX USA 120) Elaine Hannan, South Africa 121) Jayne Howes, South Africa 122) Diane Barnes, Akron, Ohio 123) Melanie Dass Moodley, Durban, SouthAfrica 124) Imma Merino, Barcelona, Catalonia 126) Marc Alfaro, Barcelona, Catalonia 127) Manel Saperas, Barcelona, Catalonia 128) Jordi Ribas Izquierdo, Catalonia 129) Naiana Lacorte Rodes, Catalonia 130) Joan Vitoria i Codina, Barcelona,Catalonia 131) Jordi Paris i Romia, Barcelona,C! atalonia 131) Marta Truno i Salvado, Barcelona,Catalonia 132) Jordi Lagares Roset, Barcelona,Catalonia 133) Josep Puig Vidal, Barcelona,Catalonia 134) Marta Juanola i Codina, Barcelona,Catalonia 135) Manel de la Fuente i Colino,Barcelona,Catalonia 136) Gemma Belluda i Ventura, Barcelona,Catalonia 137) Victor Belluda i Ventur, Barcelona,Catalonia 138) MaAntonia Balletbo, barcelona, Spain 139) Mireia Masdevall Llorens, Barcelona,Spain 140) Clara Planas, Bar celona, Spain 141) Fernando Labastida Gual, Barcelona,Spain 142) Cristina Vacarisas, Barcelona, Spain 143) Enric Llarch i Poyo, Barcelona,CATALONIA 144) Rosa Escoriza Valencia, Barcelona,Catalonia 145) Silvia Jimenez, Barcelona, Catalonia 146) Maria Clarella, Barcelona, Catalonia 147) Angels Guimera, Barcelona, Catalonia 148) M.Carmen Ruiz Fernandez, Barcelona,Catalonia 149) Rufi Cerdan Heredia,B! arcelona,Catalonia 150) M. Teresa Vilajeliu Roig, Barcelona,Catalonia 151) Rafel LLussa, Girona, Catalonia,Spain 152) Mariangels Gallego Ribo,Gelida,Catalonia 153) Jordi Cortadella, Gelida, Catalonia 154) Pere Botella,Barcelona, Catalonia(Spain) 155) Josefina Auladell Baulenas,Catalunya(Spain) 156) Empar Escoin Carceller , Catalunya(Spain) 157) Elisa Pla Soler, Catalunya (Spain) 158) Paz Morillo Bosch, catalunya (Spain) 159) Cristina Bosch Moreno, Madrid (Spain) 160) Marta Puertolas, Barcelona (Spain) 161) Elisa del Pino (Madrid) Spain 162) Joaquin Rivera (Madrid) Spain 163) Carmen Barral (Madrid) Spain 164) Carmen del Pino (Madrid) Spain 165) Asuncion del Pino (Madrid) Spain 166) Asuncion Cuesta (Madrid) Spain) 167) Ana Polo Mediavilla (Burgos) Spain 168) Mercedes Romero Laredo (Burgos)Espana 1! 69) Oliva Mertinez Fernandez (Burgos)Espana 170) Silvia Leal Aparicio (Burgos) Espana 171) Claudia Elizabeth Larrauri (BahiaBlanca),Argentina 172) Federico G. Pietrokovsky (C.F.)Argentina 173) Naschel Prina (Capital Federal) Argentina 174) Daniela Gozzi (Capital Federal)Argentina 175) Paula Elisa Kvedaras (CapitalFederal)Argentina 176) Antonio Izquierdo (Valencia) Espana 177) Ana Belen Perez Solsona (Valencia)Espana 178) Paula Folques Diago (Valencia) Espana 179) Nestor Alis Pozo (Valencia) Espana 180) Rafael Alis Pozo (valencia) Spain 181) Isabel Maria Martinez (Valencia)Espana 182) Cristina Bernad Guerrero (Valencia)Espana 183) Iria Barcia Sanchez 184) Elena Barrios Barcia. Uppsala. Suecia 185) Illana Ortiz Martin. Munchen.Alemania 186) Santiago Rodriguez Rasero. Munchen.Alemania 187) David AgEs DIaz. Pamplona. EspaOa 188) Juan Luis Ibarretxe. Galdakao. E.H. 189) RubIn DIez Ealo. Galdakao. E.H. 190) Marcial Rodr~iguez GarcIa. Ermua. 191) Imanol Echave Calvo. San Sebastian.Spain 192) Beg=B7 Ortiz deZarateLazcano.Vitoria-Gasteiz.Spain 193) David SanchezAgirregomezkorta.Gasteiz.Euskadi. 194) Alberto Ruiz De Alda.Gasteiz.Euzkadi 195) Juan Carlos Garcia Obregon.Vitoria-Gasteiz.Espana 196) Jon Aiarza Lotina. Santander.Spain 197) teresa del Hoyo Rojo. Santander. 198) Celia Nespral Gaztelumendi.Santander. EspaOa 199) Pedro MartIn Villamor, Valladolid.EspaOa 200) Victoria Arratia MartIn, Valladolid,EspaOa 201) Javi Tajadura MartIn,Portugalete,Euskadi.Spain 202) Lourdes Palacios Martin, Bilbao, Spain 203) JesTs Avila de Grado, Madrid, EspaOa 204) Eva MarIa Cano LUpez. Madrid. Spain 205) Emilio Ruiz Olivar, Londres, UK 206) Maru Ortega GarcIa del Moral,CALAHORRA, ESPA 207) Juan Carlos Ayala, Calvo, LogroIo, Spain 208) RocEo MuOoz Pino, LogroOo, EspaOa 209) Ximena Pino Burgos, Santiago, Chile 210) Roberto Saldivia Quezada, Santiago,Chile 211) Paola Gonzalez Valderrama, Santiago,Chile 212) Cesar Morales Pe=B7 y Lillo, Santiago 213) Denisse ! Labarca Abdala , Santiago,Chile 214) MarIa Paz Gonz~alez Garay 215) Daniela Millar Kaiser, Santiago,Chile 216) Alvaro Wigand Perales, Valdivia,Chile 217) Gladys Bustos Carrasco, Quilicura,Chile 218) Patricio Criado Rivera, Quilicura,Chile 219) Carolina Aguilar Monsalve, Valdivia,Chile 220) Carmen Silva Utrilla, Madrid, EspaOa 221) Martha Yolanda Rodriguez Aviles,Queretaro,Mexic o 222) LAURA RODRIGUEZAVILES,COZUMEL,QUINTANAROO,MEXICO 223)KATIA HAHN , MERIDA, YUCAT?N 224) [Sofia Gallego] Mexicali, B.C. Mexico 225)BEATRIZ CASTA 226) VICTOR KERBER PALMA,Monterrey, Mexico 227) Roco Sanchez Losada, MexicoD.F. 228) Lorenza EstandEa Gonz=B7lez Luna, MexicoD.F. 229) Gabriel Gallardo D'Aiuto,Mexico D.F. 230) JosE Antonio Salinas, Monterrey, N.L., Mex. 231) Laura Cantu, Mty N.L., Mex 232) Jossie Garcia, Mty N.L Mex 233) Martha V=B7zquez Gonz=B7lez, Mty, N.L.; M! Ex. 234) Olga Moreno, Monterrey, NL, Mex 235) Mariana Camargo, Pto. Vallarta, Jal; Mex. 236) Alfonso Villa, Toluca, Mexico 237) Arturo Rodriguez Reyes, Toluca, Edo Mexico,ME XICO 238) Fernanda Villela, Mexico D.F., MEXICO 239) Pilar JimEnez, Caracas, VENEZUELA 240) Erika Rovelo, Mexico D.F., MEXICO 241) ALEJANDRO LECANDA, CIUDAD DE MEXICO, MEXICO 242) Gabriela Diaz de Sandi, Cd. Mexico, Mexico 243) Jorge Bustamante Orgaz, Ciudad de Mexico,Mexico. 244) JosE Bernardo RodrIguez Montes, Ciudad deMexico, Mexico 245) Luisa Angela AriOo Pelez. Ciudad de Mexico,Mexico. 246) Ramses Ricardo Rios Zaragoza, CD de Mexico 247) Rosa MarIa Lamparero. Ciudad de Mexico. 248) Margarita Palomares .. Ciudad de Mexico. MEXICO 249) Carlos Anaya. MEXICO 250) Enrique Garc~ia Menes 251) Lor! en Walker. United States of America 252) Teresa Mathern, Oregon, USA 253) Linda K. Johnson, Oregon, USA 254) Jennifer Allen, New York City, USA 255) Carla Rudiger, New York City, USA 256) Colleen THomas, New York City, USA 257) Ted Johnson, New York City, USA 258) Youn Hui Jeon, Seoul, Korea 259) Wendy Perron, New York City, USA 260) Risa Jaroslow, New York City, USA 261) Pam Wise, Los Angeles, USA 262) Michael Joyce, NewYork,USA 263) Bernadine Colish, New York, USA 264) Kent Lebsock, Albuquerque, NM, USA 265) Charmaine White Face, Lakota Nation 266) Pauline Brooks, Cornwall, England 267) Peter Brooks, Cornwall, England 268) Jan Bogaert, Maldegem, Belgium 269) Marc Brailly, Blankenberge, Belgium 270) Sara De Backere, Blankenberge , Belgium 271) YTska Brailly, Blankenberge, Belgium 272) Nemo Braily, Blankenberge, Belgium 273) Viviane! Ceulemans, Heist o/d Berg, Belgium 274) Nina de Bruyne, Brugge, Belgium 275) Sjefke Dooms, Breda, Netherlands 276) Frans Fransaer, Moorsel, Belgium 277) Danielle Fransaer, Moorsel, Belgium 278) Dany De Man, Meulebeke, Belgium 279) Patrick Beirnaert, Ronse, Belgium 280) Caroline Grauls, Ronse, Belgium 281) Jacques Bisschop, Leke, Belgium 282) Marianne Blom, Rozenburg, Netherlands 283) Jan Geeraerts, Duffel, Belgium 284) Helen Buys, Oudenaarde, Belgium 285) Marc Corvers, Zwevegem, Belgium 286) Ann Labeeuw, Zwevegem, Belgium 287) Frans De Smedt, Hame-Moerzeke, Belgium 288) Aline-Iri ni Georgiou, Vorselaar, Belgium 289) Chris Peeters, Turnhout, Belgium 290) Tom Van Snick, Zottegem, Belgium 291) Marc Van Wunsel, Wespelare, Belgium 292) Carlos Goedertier, Bottelare-Merelbeke, Belgium 293) Mieke Lammens, Grazen, Belgium 294) Guido Festraets, Grazen, Belgium 295) Kathleen Quirijnen, Vosselaar, Belgium 296) Peter Van Peer, Vosselaar, Belgium! 297) Carine Vermeulen, Gent, Belgium 298) Peter Verwimp, Tremelo, Belgium 299) Filip Vissers, Herentals, Belgium 300) Carine Van Wolputte, Herentals, Belgium 301) Vanessa Lecomte, Bruxelles, Belgique 302) Fabienne Havelange, Thuillies, Belgium 303) Claudine Aubert, Estaimpuis, Belgium 304) Leon Degueldre, Thuin, Belgium 305) Pascal JavaloyEs, Sarralbe, France 306) Martine Roulet, Tours, France 307) Carol A. Bentley, Wales, U.K. 308) Jean Daines, Norwich, England 309) Julie Gillott, Norfolk, England (U.K.) 310) Christine Hewitt, Burnley, Lancs., England 311) Val Linsey, Swnasea, England (UK) 312) Rita Brauner, London, England 313) Ray Foord, Woodford Green, England (UK) 314) Sheryl I.Birch, Buxton, England 315) Anne Grecian, Berwick upon Tweed, England 316) Les G. Jones, Kent, England 317) Julie Lynex, Coventry, W.Midands, England 318) Margaret Nicholl, Enfield, England 319) Ian Moore, Norfolk, England 320) Ron Reardon, Spalding, Lincs. England 321) Muriel Reardon, Spalding, Lincs. England 322) Susan E. Naylor, Cornwall, England 323) Alec H. Moon, Gwent, Wales (UK) 324) Shirley Wayne, Wantage, Oxon., England (UK) 325) Denis Underwood, Bracknell, Berks., England (UK) 326) Lotta Haglund, Vaxholm, Sweden 327) Essi Iso-Oja, Helsinki, Finland 328) Sabine Pohl, Baden-Baden, Germany 329) Richard Ziegler, Eurasburg Loisachtal, Germany 330) Poul Kry Poulsen, Ringsted, Denmark 331) Suzanne HonEe, Brussels, Belgiu! m 332) Ann Herten, Sterrebeek, Belgium 333) Els Herten, Brussels, Belgium 334) antoinette claypoole, Ashland, Oregon ("usa") 335) Linda Griffith, Huntingdon Valley, Pa USA 336) David L. Winston, Philadelphia, PA USA 337) Joan Franklin, Philadelphia, PA USA 338) Marianne Malitz, Connecticut, USA 339) Kathy O'Rear Oklahoma USA 340) Jodie Evans, Venice, CA USA 341) Georgia Kelly, Sonoma, CA USA 342) Larry Robinson, Sebastopol, CA, USA 343) Maury M. Cooper, San Francisco, CA 344) R. Glendon Brunk, Arizona, USA 345) D. Douglas Dancer, Oregon, US 346) Randall E. Streets, Hood River, Oregon, USA 347) Chandra Radiance, Hood River, Oregon 348) Mary Harmon, White Salmon, WA, USA 349) Jean Fay Harmon, Neskowin, OR USA 350) Julie Reynolds-Otrugman, Lincoln City, OR USA 351) Sener Otrugman, Lincoln City, OR USA 352) Mary Lyn Villaume, Cairo, Egypt 353) Christian Arandel, Cairo, Egypt 354) Dania Rifai, ! Beirut, Lebanon 355) Nada Awar, Beirut, Lebanon 356) Mouna Schaheen, Olney,MD, USA 357) Nabiha Ayoub, Olney, M D USA 358) Habeeb Zein, Olney, MD USA 359) Norah Greenstein, New York, NY, USA 360) Audrey Shahin, Ashtabula, OH, USA 361) Vishali Shahin Oakland Ca) USA 362) Elena Wood, Syracuse, NY USA 363) Steven Wood, Syracuse, NY USA 364) Barry Kapke, Petaluma, CA, USA 365) Ann Mari Spector, Petaluma, CA, USA 366) Jim Berns, Sebastopol, CA, USA 367) Beth Gallock, Sebastopol, CA USA 368) Maikaaloa Clarke, CA USA 369) DeAnna L'am, Sebastopol, Ca, USA 370) Julian Shaw, Sebastopol, CA, USA 371) Katya Miller, Santa Fe, NM, USA 372) Vijali Hamilton, Castle Valley, Utah, USA 373) Andrew Beath, Malibu,CA, USA 374) Rebecca Dmytryk, CA, US 375) Jeffrey Ellis, CA USA 376) Norman Gan, Sherman Oaks, CA, USA 377) Tom Greening, Sherman Oaks, CA, USA 378) Marianne Bentzen, Charlottenlund, Denmark 379) Judyth O. Weaver, MillValley, Ca, USA 380) David W. Arehart, Lawrence, KS, USA 381) Kay Foley, Columbia, MO, USA 382) Jan Lysaght, Columbia, MO, USA 383) Mine Ezashi, Columbia, MO, USA 384) Toshihiko Ezashi, Columbia, MO, USA 385) Nobuko Kainuma, CA, USA 386) Karen Leonard, Ireland 387) Kevin Murphy, Ireland 388) Stephanie Kohl, Ireland/Germany 389) Marcel Kostyal, NRW, Germany 390) Florent Didier ,Troyes , France 391) Diepart, Sandrine, Brussels, Belgium 392) Marianne Putteman, Gent, Belgium 393) Xavier Bastiaense, Ghent, Belgium 394) Hans Gelaude, Ghent, Belgium 395) Mamoudou Guiss=C3(c) 396) Inne Geypen, Brussels, Belgium 397) Guy Cordeel, Beveren, Belgium 398) Veerle Decante, Beveren, Belgium 399) Lucienne Goormans, Beveren, Belgium 400) Marc Van Molle, Londerzeel, Belgium 401) Martine Gheysen, Machelen, Belgium 402) Marie-Anne Straetmans, Belgium 403) W. Patrick De Wilde, Huldenberg, Belgiu! m 404) Jos=C3(c) Depuydt, Belgium 404) Maryse Koll, Belgium 405) Anne De Smet, Belgium 406) Mark Hongenaert, Leuven, Belgium 407) Bart Feyaerts, Schriek, Belgium 408) Ann Van Meldert, Houthalen, Belgium 409) Kristien Coussement, Kessel-lo, Belgium 410) Griet Van Impe, Holsbeek, Belgium 411) Filip De Bodt, Herzele, Belgium 412) Marnix Schollaert,H erzele,Belgium 413) Tilly Jacobs, ronse, Belgium 414) Eric Devisscher, Hasselt, Belgium 415) Linda Bollen, Hasselt, Belgium 416) Guy Steegmans, Antwerpen, Belgium 417) Lucie Spranghers, Gent, Belgium 418) Geert Colpaert, Gent, Belgium 419) Nard Besseling, Spijkenisse, The Netherlands 420) Hanneke Wiegers, Groet, The Netherlands 421) Martin Wanzenried, Schiedam, The Netherlands 422) Monique Lansdorp, Utrecht, The Netherlands(+drums!) 423) Rajyashree Ramamurthi, UK 424) Colin Waurzyniak, UK 423) Sophie McDonald, Southampton, UK 424) Ele Carpenter, Newcastle upon Tyn! e, UK 425) Jeff Price Newcastle upon Tyne UK 426) Scott Tyrrell, Manchester UK 426) Louise Hepworth, Newcastle upon Tyne, UK 427) Toby Lowe, Newcastle upon Tyne, UK 428) Bernie Dodds, Newcastle upon Tyne, UK 429) Jeff Cleverly, Newcastle upon Tyne, UK 430) Xenia Beliayeva, Hamburg, Germany 431) Sebastian Detroy, Hamburg, Germany 432) Jan-Ole Bauer, Hamburg, Germany 433) sahra tehrani, hamburg, germany 434) Sven Goerlich, Berlin, Germany 435) sascha g=C3?rlich, berlin, germany 436) David Haneke, The Netherlands 437) Florian Hellwig, The Netherlands 438) Stef le F=C3?vre, The Netherlands 439) Manuel Aalbers, The Netherlands 440) Sylvester Pi=C3?l, Amsterdam, The Netherlands 441) Marit Hooijboer, Amsterdam, The Netherlands 442) Floor van der Wateren, Amsterdam, The Netherlands 443) Seonad Forbes, Glasgow, Scotland 444) Douglas Forbes, Glasgow, Scotland 445) Maria Nunez, Glasgow, UK 446) F! lorence Bosque, Paris, France 447) Alba Luc=EDa Morales, Cali, Colombia 448) Caryn Bern, Atlanta, GA, USA 449) Diane Mott, Casper, WY, USA 450) Barrie Thorne, Berkeley. CA, USA 451) Julia Brannen, London University, UK 452) Orly Benjamin, Tel-Aviv, Israel 453) Erella Shadmi, Mevasseret, Israel 454) Dorothy Naor, Herzliah, Israel 455) Israel Naor, Herzliah, Israel 456) Juno Sylva Englander, Austria 457) Yasmine Fahim, Saudi Arabia 458) Frank Fugate, Austin, TX, USA 459) Mary Fugate, Austin, TX, USA 460) Mike Ladah, Las Vegas, Nevada 461) Hilda Ladah, Las Vegas, Nevada 462) Nabil Bahu, Athens, Greece 462) Adelaide Bahu, Athens, Greece 463) Nada Pentaris, Athens, Greece 464) Antonis Pentaris, Athens, Greece 465) May Cremer, Munich, Germany 466) Lena Bahou, Athens, Greece 467) Samir Tanas, Athens, Greece 468) Elias Tsigakos, Athens, Greece 469) John Whitbeck, Jeddah, Saudi Arabia 470) Tara Whitbeck, Paris, France 471) James Whitbeck, Paris, France 472) Hanaa Hakiki, Paris, France 473) Longuenesse Elisabeth, France 474) Guaaybess Tourya, Luxembourg 475) Patrick Garnon, Manosque , France 476) Beatrice Longuenesse, Princeton, USA 477) Alexander Nehamas, Princeton, USA 478) Carol Rigolot, Princeton, USA 479) James Seawright, Princeton NJ, USA 480) Emmet Gowin, Princeton, NJ USA 481) Edith Gowin, Princeton,NJ. USA 482) Nathalie F. Anderson, Philadelphia PA, USA 483) Alicia Askenase, Moorestown, NJ, USA ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 10:30:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nick Piombino Subject: Inside/outside the academy Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > If there is to be a modicum of *success* in poetics- doesn't it come = > from ongoing intercourse with eachother's work and simply getting the = > work out there? By using one's access to cultivate discussion, = > opportunity and events for those who may not have the same access to = > resources? Small presses, regardless of their affiliation, seem = > particularly poised for agility in this regard. At any rate, if you are = > truly interested in this concept, perhaps regard your own set of = > circumstances and what is possible within the access you have. And = > perhaps ask yourself how the divisions serve or hinder your intent.=20 > > Jane "Modicum" is the right word, Jane. I've come to feel that response and access are very related. The fact is, inside and outside academia, or the so-called poetry community for that matter, except for the generosity and kindness of friends, there is precious little actual response of any type, perhaps except for the very few writers whose long term efforts, usually including a huge output of books, have paid off unusually well. This is in fact, very few people indeed, including the writers at the top of the silly Amazon.com sales rankings, which are relatively insignificant. Better to check with SPD for the kind of writing read by members of this list. Reviews are seldom and sparse. Poetry publishers and editors of small magazines and reviews, electronic and otherwise, deserve a lot of credit for bravely trying to go against the icy chill and virtually complete lack of monetary return and mostly meager interest. For Christsakes, frequently I don't get responses to letters I backchannel to members of this list even when they have sent out an open call for backchannel information to be sent to them. As a retiring Senator put it recently: it's a cold world out there. It's hard not to get bitter and cynical over the long haul about poetry-and poets, for that matter- but I have to work hard to not let stormy weather spoil the experience. This list is mostly helpful in that regard, don't you think? "Can't go on, everything I have is gone, stormy weather..." Nick ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 04:43:47 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: poetics concepts art MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I find poetics intersects with art theory and often find it more = stimulating and often more comrehensible to read art theory or books by = and or about artists - I dont mean learned dissertations but eg I'm = currently reading abook by Ellen Johnston on art and the object: a lot = of it maybe "old hat" or I've even read (some) of it before but it = stimulates ideas. Also I find that lit crit is the best way for me to = get philosophic concepts and some poetry is the most revelatory of = philosophy: and science is the semi-futile attempt to "explain = everything"...sub specie aeternitatis it is futile...religion is "The = Answer" but I veer back to science when religion "traps" me or tells me = to worship a Father (or tells me to "join" or "be good" or agree eg that = there is only one possible universe...) then I rebel against science = when it traps me into simplistic notions of "progress". When people come = over too pious and anti-theocratic and laying down universal laws I = reach for my relativistic gun... These hands, these concepts, with which we can "murder or create". = Richard Taylor. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 09:01:08 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MWP Subject: Re: poetics concepts art In-Reply-To: <001e01c272cf$521b1ae0$485636d2@01397384> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 10/13/02 8:43 AM, richard.tylr at richard.tylr@XTRA.CO.NZ wrote: > These hands, these concepts, with which we can "murder or create". Richard > Taylor. Creation IS murder. In the best sense of the term. m ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 12:10:41 -0400 Reply-To: sch@pce.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Heller Subject: Re: UN Protest document MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit FYI: From the UNIC web site. *** Note to Web Site Visitors:*** We have been receiving emails as part of a petition -- generated by an unknown source -- urging the US and international community to refrain from going to war. While we were heartened by this effort, the United Nations Secretariat (to which we are employed) is an implementing organ for the actions and programs agreed upon and supported by its 189 Member States. Therefore, if individuals really want their voices heard by these decision-makers, they should contact their governments and mission to the UN to express concerns and views. (We would discourage mass correspondence through emails though!). Permanent Missions to the United Nations for US Citizens: US House of Representatives , US Senate and the White House. Thank you. Alicia Askenase wrote: > Mourn the Victims. > Stand for Peace. > Islam is not the Enemy. > War is NOT the Answer. > Today we are at a point of imbalance in the world and are moving > toward what may be the beginning of a THIRD WORLD WAR. If you are > against this possibility, the UN is gathering signatures in an effort > to avoid a tragic world event. > > Please COPY (rather than Forward) this e-mail in a new message, sign > at the end of the list, and send it to all the people whom you know. > If you receive this list with more than 500 names signed, please send > a copy of the message to: unicwash@unicwash.org > > Even if you decide not to sign, please consider forwarding the > petition on instead of eliminating it. > > 1) Suzanne Dathe, Grenoble, France > 2) Laurence COMPARAT, Grenoble, France > 3) Philippe MOTTE, Grenoble, France > 4) Jok FERRAND, Mont St. Martin, France > 5) Emmanuelle PIGNOL, St Martin d'Heres,FRANCE > 6) Marie GAUTHIER, Grenoble, FRANCE > 7) Laurent VESCALO, Grenoble, FRANCE > 8) Mathieu MOY, St Egreve, FRANCE > 9) Bernard BLANCHET, Mont St Martin,FRANCE > 10) Tassadite FAVRIE, Grenoble, FRANCE > 11) Loic GODARD, S! t Ismier, FRANCE > 12) Benedicte PASCAL, Grenoble, FRA NCE > 13) Khedaidja BENATIA, Grenoble, FRANCE > 14) Marie-Therese LLORET, Grenoble,FRANCE > 15) Benoit THEAU, Poitiers, FRANCE > 16) Bruno CONSTANTIN, Poitiers, FRANCE > 17) Christian COGNARD, Poitiers, FRANCE > 18) Robert GARDETTE, Paris, FRANCE > 19) Claude CHEVILLARD, Montpellier, FRANCE > 20) gilles FREISS, Montpellier, FRANCE > 21) Patrick AUGEREAU, Montpellier, FRANCE > 22) Jean IMBERT, Marseille, FRANCE > 23) Jean-Claude MURAT, Toulouse, France > 24) Anna BASSOLS, Barcelona, Catalonia > 25) Mireia DUNACH, Barcelona, Catalonia > 26) Michel VILLAZ, Grenoble, France > 27) Pages Frederique, Dijon, France > 28) Rodolphe FISCHMEISTER,Chatenay-Malabry, France > 29) Francois BOUTEAU, Paris, France > 30) Patrick PETER , Paris, France > 31) Lorenza RADICI, Paris, France > 32) Monika Siegenthaler, Bern, Switzerland > 33) Mark Philp, Glasgow, Scotland > 34) Tomas Andersson, Stockholm, Sweden > 35! ) Jonas Eriksson, Stockholm, Sweden > 36) Karin Eriksson, Stockholm, Sweden > 37) Ake Ljung, Stockholm, Sweden > 38) Carina Sedlmayer, Stockholm, Sweden > 39) Rebecca Uddman, Stockholm, Sweden > 40) Lena Skog, Stockholm, Sweden > 41) Micael Folke, Stockholm, Sweden > 42) Britt-Marie Folke, Stockholm, Sweden > 43) Birgitta Schuberth, Stockholm, Sweden > 44) Lena Dahl, Stockholm, Sweden > 45) Ebba Karlsson, Stockholm, Sweden > 46) Jessica Carlsson, Vaxjo, Sweden > 47) Sara Blomquist, Vaxjo, Sweden > 48) Magdalena Fosseus, Vaxjo, Sweden > 49) Charlotta Langner, Goteborg, Sweden > 50) Andrea Egedal, Goteborg, Sweden > 51) Lena Persson, Stockholm, Sweden > 52) Magnus Linder, Umea ,Sweden > 53) Petra Olofsson, Umea, Sweden > 54) Caroline Evenbom, Vaxjo, Sweden > 55) Asa Peterson, Grimes, Sweden > 56) Jessica Bjork, Grimes, Sweden > 57) Linda Ahlbo! m Goteborg, Sweden > 58) Jenny Forsman, Boras, Sweden > 59) Nina Gunnarson, Kinna, Sweden > 60) Andrew Harrison, New Zealand > 61) Bryre Murphy, New Zealand > 62) Claire Lugton, New Zealand > 63) Sarah Thornton, New Zealand > 64) Rachel Eade, New Zealand > 65) Magnus Hjert, London, UK > 67) Madeleine Stamvik, Hurley, UK > 68) Susanne Nowlan, Vermont, USA > 69) Lotta Svenby, Malmoe, Sw eden > 70) Adina Giselsson, Malmoe, Sweden > 71) Anders Kullman, Stockholm, Sweden > 72) Rebecka Swane, Stockholm, Sweden > 73) Jens Venge, Stockholm, Sweden > 74) Catharina Ekdahl, Stockholm, Sweden > 75) Nina Fylkegard, Stockholm, Sweden > 76) Therese Stedman, Malmoe, Sweden > 77) Jannica Lund, Stockholm, Sweden > 79) Mats Lofstrom, Stockholm, Sweden > 80) Li Lindstrom, Sweden > 81) Ursula Mueller, Sweden > 82) Marianne Komstadius, Stockholm, Sweden > 83) Peter Thyselius, Stockholm, Sweden > 84) G! onzalo Oviedo, Quito, Ecuador > 85) Amalia Romeo, Gland,Switzerland > 86) Margarita Restrepo, Gland, Switzerland > 87) Eliane Ruster, Crans p.C., Switzerland > 88) Jennifer Bischo ff-Elder, Hong Kong > 89) Azita Lashgari, Beirut, Lebanon > 90) Khashayar Ostovany, New York, USA > 91) Lisa L Miller, Reno NV > 92) Danielle Avazian, Los Angeles, CA > 93) Sara Risher,Los Angeles,Ca. > 94) Melanie London, New York, NY > 95) Susan Brownstein , Los Angeles, CA > 96) Steven Raspa, San Francisco, CA > 97) Margot Duane, Ross, CA > 98) Natasha Darnall, Los Angeles, CA > 99) Candace Brower, Evanston, IL > 100) James Kjelland, Evanston, IL > 101) Michael Jampole, Beach Park, IL, USA > 102) Diane Willis, Wilmette, IL, USA > 103) Sharri Russell, Roanoke, VA, USA > 104) Faye Cooley, Roanoke, VA, USA > 105) Celeste Thompson, Round Rock, TX, USA > 106) Sherry Stang, Pflugerville, TX, USA > 107) Paula Abrams-Hourani, Vienna > 108) Milissa Bowen, Austin, TX USA > 109) Michelle Jozwiak, Brenham, TX USA > 110) Mary Orsted, College Station, TX USA > 111) Janet Gardner, Dallas, TX USA > 112) Marilyn Hollingsworth, Dallas, TX USA > 113) Nancy Shamblin, Garland. TX USA > 114) K. M. Mullen, Houston, TX - USA > 115) Noreen Tolman, Houston, Texas - USA > 116) Laurie Sobolewski, Warren, MI > 117) Kellie Sisson Snider, Irving Texas > 118) Carol Currie, Garland, Garland Texas > 119) John Snyder, Garland, TX USA > 120) Elaine Hannan, South Africa > 121) Jayne Howes, South Africa > 122) Diane Barnes, Akron, Ohio > 123) Melanie Dass Moodley, Durban, SouthAfrica > 124) Imma Merino, Barcelona, Catalonia > 126) Marc Alfaro, Barcelona, Catalonia > 127) Manel Saperas, Barcelona, Catalonia > 128) Jordi Ribas Izquierdo, Catalonia > 129) Naiana Lacorte Rodes, Catalonia > 130) Joan Vitoria i Codina, Barcelona,Catalonia > 131) Jordi Paris i Romia, Barcelona,C! atalonia > 131) Marta Truno i Salvado, Barcelona,Catalonia > 132) Jordi Lagares Roset, Barcelona,Catalonia > 133) Josep Puig Vidal, Barcelona,Catalonia > 134) Marta Juanola i Codina, Barcelona,Catalonia > 135) Manel de la Fuente i Colino,Barcelona,Catalonia > 136) Gemma Belluda i Ventura, Barcelona,Catalonia > 137) Victor Belluda i Ventur, Barcelona,Catalonia > 138) MaAntonia Balletbo, barcelona, Spain > 139) Mireia Masdevall Llorens, Barcelona,Spain > 140) Clara Planas, Bar celona, Spain > 141) Fernando Labastida Gual, Barcelona,Spain > 142) Cristina Vacarisas, Barcelona, Spain > 143) Enric Llarch i Poyo, Barcelona,CATALONIA > 144) Rosa Escoriza Valencia, Barcelona,Catalonia > 145) Silvia Jimenez, Barcelona, Catalonia > 146) Maria Clarella, Barcelona, Catalonia > 147) Angels Guimera, Barcelona, Catalonia > 148) M.Carmen Ruiz Fernandez, Barcelona,Catalonia > 149) Rufi Cerdan Heredia,B! arcelona,Catalonia > 150) M. Teresa Vilajeliu Roig, Barcelona,Catalonia > 151) Rafel LLussa, Girona, Catalonia,Spain > 152) Mariangels Gallego Ribo,Gelida,Catalonia > 153) Jordi Cortadella, Gelida, Catalonia > 154) Pere Botella,Barcelona, Catalonia(Spain) > 155) Josefina Auladell Baulenas,Catalunya(Spain) > 156) Empar Escoin Carceller , Catalunya(Spain) > 157) Elisa Pla Soler, Catalunya (Spain) > 158) Paz Morillo Bosch, catalunya (Spain) > 159) Cristina Bosch Moreno, Madrid (Spain) > 160) Marta Puertolas, Barcelona (Spain) > 161) Elisa del Pino (Madrid) Spain > 162) Joaquin Rivera (Madrid) Spain > 163) Carmen Barral (Madrid) Spain > 164) Carmen del Pino (Madrid) Spain > 165) Asuncion del Pino (Madrid) Spain > 166) Asuncion Cuesta (Madrid) Spain) > 167) Ana Polo Mediavilla (Burgos) Spain > 168) Mercedes Romero Laredo (Burgos)Espana > 1! 69) Oliva Mertinez Fernandez (Burgos)Espana > 170) Silvia Leal Aparicio (Burgos) Espana > 171) Claudia Elizabeth Larrauri (BahiaBlanca),Argentina > 172) Federico G. Pietrokovsky (C.F.)Argentina > 173) Naschel Prina (Capital Federal) Argentina > 174) Daniela Gozzi (Capital Federal)Argentina > 175) Paula Elisa Kvedaras (CapitalFederal)Argentina > 176) Antonio Izquierdo (Valencia) Espana > 177) Ana Belen Perez Solsona (Valencia)Espana > 178) Paula Folques Diago (Valencia) Espana > 179) Nestor Alis Pozo (Valencia) Espana > 180) Rafael Alis Pozo (valencia) Spain > 181) Isabel Maria Martinez (Valencia)Espana > 182) Cristina Bernad Guerrero (Valencia)Espana > 183) Iria Barcia Sanchez > 184) Elena Barrios Barcia. Uppsala. Suecia > 185) Illana Ortiz Martin. Munchen.Alemania > 186) Santiago Rodriguez Rasero. Munchen.Alemania > 187) David AgEs DIaz. > Pamplona. EspaOa > 188) Juan Luis Ibarretxe. Galdakao. E.H. > 189) RubIn DIez Ealo. Galdakao. E.H. > 190) Marcial Rodr~iguez GarcIa. Ermua. > 191) Imanol Echave Calvo. San Sebastian.Spain > 192) Beg· Ortiz deZarateLazcano.Vitoria-Gasteiz.Spain > 193) David SanchezAgirregomezkorta.Gasteiz.Euskadi. > 194) Alberto Ruiz De Alda.Gasteiz.Euzkadi > 195) Juan Carlos Garcia Obregon.Vitoria-Gasteiz.Espana > 196) Jon Aiarza Lotina. Santander.Spain > 197) teresa del Hoyo Rojo. Santander. > 198) Celia Nespral Gaztelumendi.Santander. EspaOa > 199) Pedro MartIn Villamor, Valladolid.EspaOa > 200) Victoria Arratia MartIn, Valladolid,EspaOa > 201) Javi Tajadura MartIn,Portugalete,Euskadi.Spain > 202) Lourdes Palacios Martin, Bilbao, Spain > 203) JesTs Avila de Grado, Madrid, EspaOa > 204) Eva MarIa Cano LUpez. Madrid. Spain > 205) Emilio Ruiz Olivar, Londres, UK > 206) Maru Ortega GarcIa del Moral,CALAHORRA, ESPA > 207) Juan Carlos Ayala, Calvo, LogroIo, Spain > 208) RocEo MuOoz Pino, LogroOo, EspaOa > 209) Ximena Pino Burgos, Santiago, Chile > 210) Roberto Saldivia Quezada, Santiago,Chile > 211) Paola Gonzalez Valderrama, Santiago,Chile > 212) Cesar Morales Pe· y Lillo, Santiago > 213) Denisse ! Labarca Abdala , Santiago,Chile > 214) MarIa Paz Gonz~alez Garay > 215) Daniela Millar Kaiser, Santiago,Chile > 216) Alvaro Wigand Perales, Valdivia,Chile > 217) Gladys Bustos Carrasco, Quilicura,Chile > 218) Patricio Criado Rivera, Quilicura,Chile > 219) Carolina Aguilar Monsalve, Valdivia,Chile > 220) Carmen Silva Utrilla, Madrid, EspaOa > 221) Martha Yolanda Rodriguez Aviles,Queretaro,Mexic o > 222) LAURA RODRIGUEZAVILES,COZUMEL,QUINTANAROO,MEXICO > 223)KATIA HAHN , MERIDA, YUCAT?N > 224) [Sofia Gallego] Mexicali, B.C. Mexico > 225)BEATRIZ CASTA > 226) VICTOR KERBER PALMA,Monterrey, Mexico > 227) Roco Sanchez Losada, MexicoD.F. > 228) Lorenza EstandEa Gonz·lez Luna, MexicoD.F. > 229) Gabriel Gallardo D'Aiuto,Mexico D.F. > 230) JosE Antonio Salinas, Monterrey, N.L., Mex. > 231) Laura Cantu, Mty N.L., Mex > 232) Jossie Garcia, Mty N.L Mex > 233) Martha V·zquez Gonz·lez, Mty, N.L.; M! Ex. > 234) Olga Moreno, Monterrey, NL, Mex > 235) Mariana Camargo, Pto. Vallarta, Jal; Mex. > 236) Alfonso Villa, Toluca, Mexico > 237) Arturo Rodriguez Reyes, Toluca, Edo Mexico,ME XICO > 238) Fernanda Villela, Mexico D.F., MEXICO > 239) Pilar JimEnez, Caracas, VENEZUELA > 240) Erika Rovelo, Mexico D.F., MEXICO > 241) ALEJANDRO LECANDA, CIUDAD DE MEXICO, MEXICO > 242) Gabriela Diaz de Sandi, Cd. Mexico, Mexico > 243) Jorge Bustamante Orgaz, Ciudad de Mexico,Mexico. > 244) JosE Bernardo RodrIguez Montes, Ciudad deMexico, Mexico > 245) Luisa Angela AriOo Pelez. Ciudad de Mexico,Mexico. > 246) Ramses Ricardo Rios Zaragoza, CD de Mexico > 247) Rosa MarIa Lamparero. Ciudad de Mexico. > 248) Margarita Palomares .. Ciudad de Mexico. MEXICO > 249) Carlos Anaya. MEXICO > 250) Enrique Garc~ia Menes > 251) Lor! en Walker. United States of America > 252) Teresa Mathern, Oregon, USA > 253) Linda K. Johnson, Oregon, USA > 254) Jennifer Allen, New York City, USA > 255) Carla Rudiger, New York City, USA > 256) Colleen THomas, New York City, USA > 257) Ted Johnson, New York City, USA > 258) Youn Hui Jeon, Seoul, Korea > 259) Wendy Perron, New York City, USA > 260) Risa Jaroslow, New York City, USA > 261) Pam Wise, Los Angeles, USA > 262) Michael Joyce, NewYork,USA > 263) Bernadine Colish, New York, USA > 264) Kent Lebsock, Albuquerque, NM, USA > 265) Charmaine White Face, Lakota Nation > 266) Pauline Brooks, Cornwall, England > 267) Peter Brooks, Cornwall, England > 268) Jan Bogaert, Maldegem, Belgium > 269) Marc Brailly, Blankenberge, Belgium > 270) Sara De Backere, Blankenberge , Belgium > 271) YTska Brailly, Blankenberge, Belgium > 272) Nemo Braily, Blankenberge, Belgium > 273) Viviane! Ceulemans, Heist o/d Berg, Belgium > 274) Nina de Bruyne, Brugge, Belgium > 275) Sjefke Dooms, Breda, Netherlands > 276) Frans Fransaer, Moorsel, Belgium > 277) Danielle Fransaer, Moorsel, Belgium > 278) Dany De Man, Meulebeke, Belgium > 279) Patrick Beirnaert, Ronse, Belgium > 280) Caroline Grauls, Ronse, Belgium > 281) Jacques Bisschop, Leke, Belgium > 282) Marianne Blom, Rozenburg, Netherlands > 283) Jan Geeraerts, Duffel, Belgium > 284) Helen Buys, Oudenaarde, Belgium > 285) Marc Corvers, Zwevegem, Belgium > 286) Ann Labeeuw, Zwevegem, Belgium > 287) Frans De Smedt, Hame-Moerzeke, Belgium > 288) Aline-Iri ni Georgiou, Vorselaar, Belgium > 289) Chris Peeters, Turnhout, Belgium > 290) Tom Van Snick, Zottegem, Belgium > 291) Marc Van Wunsel, Wespelare, Belgium > 292) Carlos Goedertier, Bottelare-Merelbeke, Belgium > 293) Mieke Lammens, Grazen, Belgium > 294) Guido Festraets, Grazen, Belgium > 295) Kathleen Quirijnen, Vosselaar, Belgium > 296) Peter Van Peer, Vosselaar, Belgium! > 297) Carine Vermeulen, Gent, Belgium > 298) Peter Verwimp, Tremelo, Belgium > 299) Filip Vissers, Herentals, Belgium > 300) Carine Van Wolputte, Herentals, Belgium > 301) Vanessa Lecomte, Bruxelles, Belgique > 302) Fabienne Havelange, Thuillies, Belgium > 303) Claudine Aubert, Estaimpuis, Belgium > 304) Leon Degueldre, Thuin, Belgium > 305) Pascal JavaloyEs, Sarralbe, France > 306) Martine Roulet, Tours, France > 307) Carol A. Bentley, Wales, U.K. > 308) Jean Daines, Norwich, England > 309) Julie Gillott, Norfolk, England (U.K.) > 310) Christine Hewitt, Burnley, Lancs., England > 311) Val Linsey, Swnasea, England (UK) > 312) Rita Brauner, London, England > 313) Ray Foord, Woodford Green, England (UK) > 314) Sheryl I.Birch, Buxton, England > 315) Anne Grecian, Berwick upon Tweed, England > 316) Les G. Jones, Kent, England > 317) Julie Lynex, Coventry, W.Midands, England > 318) Margaret Nicholl, Enfield, England > 319) Ian Moore, Norfolk, England > 320) Ron Reardon, Spalding, Lincs. England > 321) Muriel Reardon, Spalding, Lincs. England > 322) Susan E. Naylor, Cornwall, England > 323) Alec H. Moon, Gwent, Wales (UK) > 324) Shirley Wayne, Wantage, Oxon., England (UK) > 325) Denis Underwood, Bracknell, Berks., England (UK) > 326) Lotta Haglund, Vaxholm, Sweden > 327) Essi Iso-Oja, Helsinki, Finland > 328) Sabine Pohl, Baden-Baden, Germany > 329) Richard Ziegler, Eurasburg Loisachtal, Germany > 330) Poul Kry Poulsen, Ringsted, Denmark > 331) Suzanne HonEe, Brussels, Belgiu! m > 332) Ann Herten, Sterrebeek, Belgium > 333) Els Herten, Brussels, Belgium > 334) antoinette claypoole, Ashland, Oregon ("usa") > 335) Linda Griffith, Huntingdon Valley, Pa USA > 336) David L. Winston, Philadelphia, PA USA > 337) Joan Franklin, Philadelphia, PA USA > 338) Marianne Malitz, Connecticut, USA > 339) Kathy O'Rear Oklahoma USA > 340) Jodie Evans, Venice, CA USA > 341) Georgia Kelly, Sonoma, CA USA > 342) Larry Robinson, Sebastopol, CA, USA > 343) Maury M. Cooper, San Francisco, CA > 344) R. Glendon Brunk, Arizona, USA > 345) D. Douglas Dancer, Oregon, US > 346) Randall E. Streets, Hood River, Oregon, USA > 347) Chandra Radiance, Hood River, Oregon > 348) Mary Harmon, White Salmon, WA, USA > 349) Jean Fay Harmon, Neskowin, OR USA > 350) Julie Reynolds-Otrugman, Lincoln City, OR USA > 351) Sener Otrugman, Lincoln City, OR USA > 352) Mary Lyn Villaume, Cairo, Egypt > 353) Christian Arandel, Cairo, Egypt > 354) Dania Rifai, ! Beirut, Lebanon > 355) Nada Awar, Beirut, Lebanon > 356) Mouna Schaheen, Olney,MD, USA > 357) Nabiha Ayoub, Olney, M D USA > 358) Habeeb Zein, Olney, MD USA > 359) Norah Greenstein, New York, NY, USA > 360) Audrey Shahin, Ashtabula, OH, USA > 361) Vishali Shahin Oakland Ca) USA > 362) Elena Wood, Syracuse, NY USA > 363) Steven Wood, Syracuse, NY USA > 364) Barry Kapke, Petaluma, CA, USA > 365) Ann Mari Spector, Petaluma, CA, USA > 366) Jim Berns, Sebastopol, CA, USA > 367) Beth Gallock, Sebastopol, CA USA > 368) Maikaaloa Clarke, CA USA > 369) DeAnna L'am, Sebastopol, Ca, USA > 370) Julian Shaw, Sebastopol, CA, USA > 371) Katya Miller, Santa Fe, NM, USA > 372) Vijali Hamilton, Castle Valley, Utah, USA > 373) Andrew Beath, Malibu,CA, USA > 374) Rebecca Dmytryk, CA, US > 375) Jeffrey Ellis, CA USA > 376) Norman Gan, Sherman Oaks, CA, USA > 377) Tom Greening, Sherman Oaks, CA, USA > 378) Marianne Bentzen, Charlottenlund, Denmark > 379) Judyth O. Weaver, MillValley, Ca, USA > 380) David W. Arehart, Lawrence, KS, USA > 381) Kay Foley, Columbia, MO, USA > 382) Jan Lysaght, Columbia, MO, USA > 383) Mine Ezashi, Columbia, MO, USA > 384) Toshihiko Ezashi, Columbia, MO, USA > 385) Nobuko Kainuma, CA, USA > 386) Karen Leonard, Ireland > 387) Kevin Murphy, Ireland > 388) Stephanie Kohl, Ireland/Germany > 389) Marcel Kostyal, NRW, Germany > 390) Florent Didier ,Troyes , France > 391) Diepart, Sandrine, Brussels, Belgium > 392) Marianne Putteman, Gent, Belgium > 393) Xavier Bastiaense, Ghent, Belgium > 394) Hans Gelaude, Ghent, Belgium > 395) Mamoudou GuissÃ(c) > 396) Inne Geypen, Brussels, Belgium > 397) Guy Cordeel, Beveren, Belgium > 398) Veerle Decante, Beveren, Belgium > 399) Lucienne Goormans, Beveren, Belgium > 400) Marc Van Molle, Londerzeel, Belgium > 401) Martine Gheysen, Machelen, Belgium > 402) Marie-Anne Straetmans, Belgium > 403) W. Patrick De Wilde, Huldenberg, Belgiu! m > 404) JosÃ(c) Depuydt, Belgium > 404) Maryse Koll, Belgium > 405) Anne De Smet, Belgium > 406) Mark Hongenaert, Leuven, Belgium > 407) Bart Feyaerts, Schriek, Belgium > 408) Ann Van Meldert, Houthalen, Belgium > 409) Kristien Coussement, Kessel-lo, Belgium > 410) Griet Van Impe, Holsbeek, Belgium > 411) Filip De Bodt, Herzele, Belgium > 412) Marnix Schollaert,H erzele,Belgium > 413) Tilly Jacobs, ronse, Belgium > 414) Eric Devisscher, Hasselt, Belgium > 415) Linda Bollen, Hasselt, Belgium > 416) Guy Steegmans, Antwerpen, Belgium > 417) Lucie Spranghers, Gent, Belgium > 418) Geert Colpaert, Gent, Belgium > 419) Nard Besseling, Spijkenisse, The Netherlands > 420) Hanneke Wiegers, Groet, The Netherlands > 421) Martin Wanzenried, Schiedam, The Netherlands > 422) Monique Lansdorp, Utrecht, The Netherlands(+drums!) > 423) Rajyashree Ramamurthi, UK > 424) Colin Waurzyniak, UK > 423) Sophie McDonald, Southampton, UK > 424) Ele Carpenter, Newcastle upon Tyn! e, UK > 425) Jeff Price Newcastle upon Tyne UK > 426) Scott Tyrrell, Manchester UK > 426) Louise Hepworth, Newcastle upon Tyne, UK > 427) Toby Lowe, Newcastle upon Tyne, UK > 428) Bernie Dodds, Newcastle upon Tyne, UK > 429) Jeff Cleverly, Newcastle upon Tyne, UK > 430) Xenia Beliayeva, Hamburg, Germany > 431) Sebastian Detroy, Hamburg, Germany > 432) Jan-Ole Bauer, Hamburg, Germany > 433) sahra tehrani, hamburg, germany > 434) Sven Goerlich, Berlin, Germany > 435) sascha gÃ?rlich, berlin, germany > 436) David Haneke, The Netherlands > 437) Florian Hellwig, The Netherlands > 438) Stef le FÃ?vre, The Netherlands > 439) Manuel Aalbers, The Netherlands > 440) Sylvester PiÃ?l, Amsterdam, The Netherlands > 441) Marit Hooijboer, Amsterdam, The Netherlands > 442) Floor van der Wateren, Amsterdam, The Netherlands > 443) Seonad Forbes, Glasgow, Scotland > > 444) Douglas Forbes, Glasgow, Scotland > 445) Maria Nunez, Glasgow, UK > 446) F! lorence Bosque, Paris, France > 447) Alba Lucía Morales, Cali, Colombia > 448) Caryn Bern, Atlanta, GA, USA > 449) Diane Mott, Casper, WY, USA > 450) Barrie Thorne, Berkeley. CA, USA > 451) Julia Brannen, London University, UK > 452) Orly Benjamin, Tel-Aviv, Israel > 453) Erella Shadmi, Mevasseret, Israel > 454) Dorothy Naor, Herzliah, Israel > 455) Israel Naor, Herzliah, Israel > 456) Juno Sylva Englander, Austria > 457) Yasmine Fahim, Saudi Arabia > 458) Frank Fugate, Austin, TX, USA > 459) Mary Fugate, Austin, TX, USA > 460) Mike Ladah, Las Vegas, Nevada > 461) Hilda Ladah, Las Vegas, Nevada > 462) Nabil Bahu, Athens, Greece > 462) Adelaide Bahu, Athens, Greece > 463) Nada Pentaris, Athens, Greece > 464) Antonis Pentaris, Athens, Greece > 465) May Cremer, Munich, Germany > 466) Lena Bahou, Athens, Greece > 467) Samir Tanas, Athens, Greece > 468) Elias Tsigakos, Athens, Greece > 469) John Whitbeck, Jeddah, Saudi Arabia > 470) Tara Whitbeck, Paris, France > 471) James Whitbeck, Paris, France > 472) Hanaa Hakiki, Paris, France > 473) Longuenesse Elisabeth, France > 474) Guaaybess Tourya, Luxembourg > 475) Patrick Garnon, Manosque , France > 476) Beatrice Longuenesse, Princeton, USA > 477) Alexander Nehamas, Princeton, USA > 478) Carol Rigolot, Princeton, USA > 479) James Seawright, Princeton NJ, USA > 480) Emmet Gowin, Princeton, NJ USA > 481) Edith Gowin, Princeton,NJ. USA > 482) Nathalie F. Anderson, Philadelphia PA, USA > 483) Alicia Askenase, Moorestown, NJ, USA ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 09:31:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alec Ramsdell Subject: Re: UN Protest document In-Reply-To: <43.13489f0c.2adad564@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii A friend forwarded this to me a few days ago so I checked the site, which reads: "Note: We have learned that there is a new petition circulating that claims to have been started by our office -- we have not, nor have we ever, initiated any petition." Is the below legit? Alec --- Alicia Askenase wrote: > Mourn the Victims. > Stand for Peace. > Islam is not the Enemy. > War is NOT the Answer. > Today we are at a point of imbalance in the world > and are moving > toward what may be the beginning of a THIRD WORLD > WAR. If you are > against this possibility, the UN is gathering > signatures in an effort > to avoid a tragic world event. > > Please COPY (rather than Forward) this e-mail in a > new message, sign > at the end of the list, and send it to all the > people whom you know. > If you receive this list with more than 500 names > signed, please send > a copy of the message to: unicwash@unicwash.org > > Even if you decide not to sign, please consider > forwarding the > petition on instead of eliminating it. > > 1) Suzanne Dathe, Grenoble, France > 2) Laurence COMPARAT, Grenoble, France > 3) Philippe MOTTE, Grenoble, France > 4) Jok FERRAND, Mont St. Martin, France > 5) Emmanuelle PIGNOL, St Martin d'Heres,FRANCE > 6) Marie GAUTHIER, Grenoble, FRANCE > 7) Laurent VESCALO, Grenoble, FRANCE > 8) Mathieu MOY, St Egreve, FRANCE > 9) Bernard BLANCHET, Mont St Martin,FRANCE > 10) Tassadite FAVRIE, Grenoble, FRANCE > 11) Loic GODARD, S! t Ismier, FRANCE > 12) Benedicte PASCAL, Grenoble, FRA NCE > 13) Khedaidja BENATIA, Grenoble, FRANCE > 14) Marie-Therese LLORET, Grenoble,FRANCE > 15) Benoit THEAU, Poitiers, FRANCE > 16) Bruno CONSTANTIN, Poitiers, FRANCE > 17) Christian COGNARD, Poitiers, FRANCE > 18) Robert GARDETTE, Paris, FRANCE > 19) Claude CHEVILLARD, Montpellier, FRANCE > 20) gilles FREISS, Montpellier, FRANCE > 21) Patrick AUGEREAU, Montpellier, FRANCE > 22) Jean IMBERT, Marseille, FRANCE > 23) Jean-Claude MURAT, Toulouse, France > 24) Anna BASSOLS, Barcelona, Catalonia > 25) Mireia DUNACH, Barcelona, Catalonia > 26) Michel VILLAZ, Grenoble, France > 27) Pages Frederique, Dijon, France > 28) Rodolphe FISCHMEISTER,Chatenay-Malabry, France > 29) Francois BOUTEAU, Paris, France > 30) Patrick PETER , Paris, France > 31) Lorenza RADICI, Paris, France > 32) Monika Siegenthaler, Bern, Switzerland > 33) Mark Philp, Glasgow, Scotland > 34) Tomas Andersson, Stockholm, Sweden > 35! ) Jonas Eriksson, Stockholm, Sweden > 36) Karin Eriksson, Stockholm, Sweden > 37) Ake Ljung, Stockholm, Sweden > 38) Carina Sedlmayer, Stockholm, Sweden > 39) Rebecca Uddman, Stockholm, Sweden > 40) Lena Skog, Stockholm, Sweden > 41) Micael Folke, Stockholm, Sweden > 42) Britt-Marie Folke, Stockholm, Sweden > 43) Birgitta Schuberth, Stockholm, Sweden > 44) Lena Dahl, Stockholm, Sweden > 45) Ebba Karlsson, Stockholm, Sweden > 46) Jessica Carlsson, Vaxjo, Sweden > 47) Sara Blomquist, Vaxjo, Sweden > 48) Magdalena Fosseus, Vaxjo, Sweden > 49) Charlotta Langner, Goteborg, Sweden > 50) Andrea Egedal, Goteborg, Sweden > 51) Lena Persson, Stockholm, Sweden > 52) Magnus Linder, Umea ,Sweden > 53) Petra Olofsson, Umea, Sweden > 54) Caroline Evenbom, Vaxjo, Sweden > 55) Asa Peterson, Grimes, Sweden > 56) Jessica Bjork, Grimes, Sweden > 57) Linda Ahlbo! m Goteborg, Sweden > 58) Jenny Forsman, Boras, Sweden > 59) Nina Gunnarson, Kinna, Sweden > 60) Andrew Harrison, New Zealand > 61) Bryre Murphy, New Zealand > 62) Claire Lugton, New Zealand > 63) Sarah Thornton, New Zealand > 64) Rachel Eade, New Zealand > 65) Magnus Hjert, London, UK > 67) Madeleine Stamvik, Hurley, UK > 68) Susanne Nowlan, Vermont, USA > 69) Lotta Svenby, Malmoe, Sw eden > 70) Adina Giselsson, Malmoe, Sweden > 71) Anders Kullman, Stockholm, Sweden > 72) Rebecka Swane, Stockholm, Sweden > 73) Jens Venge, Stockholm, Sweden > 74) Catharina Ekdahl, Stockholm, Sweden > 75) Nina Fylkegard, Stockholm, Sweden > 76) Therese Stedman, Malmoe, Sweden > 77) Jannica Lund, Stockholm, Sweden > 79) Mats Lofstrom, Stockholm, Sweden > 80) Li Lindstrom, Sweden > 81) Ursula Mueller, Sweden > 82) Marianne Komstadius, Stockholm, Sweden > 83) Peter Thyselius, Stockholm, Sweden > 84) G! onzalo Oviedo, Quito, Ecuador > 85) Amalia Romeo, Gland,Switzerland > 86) Margarita Restrepo, Gland, Switzerland > 87) Eliane Ruster, Crans p.C., Switzerland > 88) Jennifer Bischo ff-Elder, Hong Kong > 89) Azita Lashgari, Beirut, Lebanon > 90) Khashayar Ostovany, New York, USA > 91) Lisa L Miller, Reno NV > 92) Danielle Avazian, Los Angeles, CA > 93) Sara Risher,Los Angeles,Ca. > 94) Melanie London, New York, NY > 95) Susan Brownstein , Los Angeles, CA > 96) Steven Raspa, San Francisco, CA > 97) Margot Duane, Ross, CA > 98) Natasha Darnall, Los Angeles, CA > 99) Candace Brower, Evanston, IL > 100) James Kjelland, Evanston, IL > 101) Michael Jampole, Beach Park, IL, USA > 102) Diane Willis, Wilmette, IL, USA > 103) Sharri Russell, Roanoke, VA, USA > 104) Faye Cooley, Roanoke, VA, USA > 105) Celeste Thompson, Round Rock, TX, USA > 106) Sherry Stang, Pflugerville, TX, USA > 107) Paula Abrams-Hourani, Vienna > 108) Milissa Bowen, Austin, TX USA > 109) Michelle Jozwiak, Brenham, TX USA > 110) Mary Orsted, College Station, TX USA > 111) Janet Gardner, Dallas, TX USA > 112) Marilyn Hollingsworth, Dallas, TX USA > 113) Nancy Shamblin, Garland. TX USA > 114) K. M. Mullen, Houston, TX - USA > 115) Noreen Tolman, Houston, Texas - USA > 116) Laurie Sobolewski, Warren, MI > 117) Kellie Sisson Snider, Irving Texas > 118) Carol Currie, Garland, Garland Texas > 119) John Snyder, Garland, TX USA > 120) Elaine Hannan, South Africa > 121) Jayne Howes, South Africa > 122) Diane Barnes, Akron, Ohio > 123) Melanie Dass Moodley, Durban, SouthAfrica > 124) Imma Merino, Barcelona, Catalonia > 126) Marc Alfaro, Barcelona, Catalonia > 127) Manel Saperas, Barcelona, Catalonia > 128) Jordi Ribas Izquierdo, Catalonia > 129) Naiana Lacorte Rodes, Catalonia > 130) Joan Vitoria i Codina, Barcelona,Catalonia > 131) Jordi Paris i Romia, Barcelona,C! atalonia > 131) Marta Truno i Salvado, Barcelona,Catalonia > 132) Jordi Lagares Roset, Barcelona,Catalonia > 133) Josep Puig Vidal, Barcelona,Catalonia > 134) Marta Juanola i Codina, Barcelona,Catalonia > 135) Manel de la Fuente i Colino,Barcelona,Catalonia > 136) Gemma Belluda i Ventura, Barcelona,Catalonia > 137) Victor Belluda i Ventur, Barcelona,Catalonia > 138) MaAntonia Balletbo, barcelona, Spain > 139) Mireia Masdevall Llorens, Barcelona,Spain > 140) Clara Planas, Bar celona, Spain > 141) Fernando Labastida Gual, Barcelona,Spain > 142) Cristina Vacarisas, Barcelona, Spain > 143) Enric Llarch i Poyo, Barcelona,CATALONIA > 144) Rosa Escoriza Valencia, Barcelona,Catalonia > 145) Silvia Jimenez, Barcelona, Catalonia > 146) Maria Clarella, Barcelona, Catalonia > 147) Angels Guimera, Barcelona, Catalonia > 148) M.Carmen Ruiz Fernandez, Barcelona,Catalonia > 149) Rufi Cerdan Heredia,B! arcelona,Catalonia > 150) M. Teresa Vilajeliu Roig, Barcelona,Catalonia > 151) Rafel LLussa, Girona, Catalonia,Spain > 152) Mariangels Gallego Ribo,Gelida,Catalonia > 153) Jordi Cortadella, Gelida, Catalonia > 154) Pere Botella,Barcelona, Catalonia(Spain) > 155) Josefina Auladell Baulenas,Catalunya(Spain) > 156) Empar Escoin Carceller , Catalunya(Spain) > 157) Elisa Pla Soler, Catalunya (Spain) > 158) Paz Morillo Bosch, catalunya (Spain) > 159) Cristina Bosch Moreno, Madrid (Spain) > 160) Marta Puertolas, Barcelona (Spain) > 161) Elisa del Pino (Madrid) Spain > 162) Joaquin Rivera (Madrid) Spain > 163) Carmen Barral (Madrid) Spain > 164) Carmen del Pino (Madrid) Spain > 165) Asuncion del Pino (Madrid) Spain > 166) Asuncion Cuesta (Madrid) Spain) > 167) Ana Polo Mediavilla (Burgos) Spain > 168) Mercedes Romero Laredo (Burgos)Espana > 1! 69) Oliva Mertinez Fernandez (Burgos)Espana > 170) Silvia Leal Aparicio (Burgos) Espana > 171) Claudia Elizabeth Larrauri > (BahiaBlanca),Argentina > 172) Federico G. Pietrokovsky (C.F.)Argentina > 173) Naschel Prina (Capital Federal) Argentina > 174) Daniela Gozzi (Capital Federal)Argentina > 175) Paula Elisa Kvedaras (CapitalFederal)Argentina > 176) Antonio Izquierdo (Valencia) Espana > 177) Ana Belen Perez Solsona (Valencia)Espana > 178) Paula Folques Diago (Valencia) Espana > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 13:08:51 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alicia Askenase Subject: Re: UN Protest document MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry if that document was misinformation or a hoax. Thanks for letting me know. Alicia ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 10:14:48 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dodie Bellamy Subject: Doug Rice and Dodie Bellamy in SF Tuesday Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" From the New Langton Arts website: Reading Dodie Bellamy and Douglas Rice Tuesday 15 Oct 2002 8 pm New Langton Arts 1246 Folsom Street (between 8th and 9th streets) San Francisco Dodie Bellamy and Douglas Rice immerse the reader in an intimacy that is both tender and explicit, as their writing reimagines the parameter of fictive discourse. Dodie Bellamy's work collapses the boundaries between the marketing tools ordinarily thought of as novel, poem, and punchline. Embodying both violent and confessional senses of eroticism, her writing aims to represent physical sensation over sexual experience. Doug Rice combines autobiography, fiction, theory, and religion to explore the subjects of gender uncertainty and identity politics. His characters' sense of indeterminacy demands a different structure of representation, which he expresses through a language and syntax of his own creation. Combining fact and fiction, the brutal and the lyric, these writers create experimental, cross-genre works that break the cultural traditions of confessional writing, sexual theory, feminism, erotica, and sadomasochism. Dodie Bellamy's latest book, Cunt-Ups (Tender Buttons, 2002) won the 2002 Firecracker Alternative Book Award for Poetry. She has published numerous books of fiction, poetry, and short stories, and her work has been widely published in literary journals, magazines, and anthologies. Her works include Feminine Hijinx (Hanuman, 1990), The Letters of Mina Harker (Hard Press, 1998) as well as three chap books. The former director of Small Press Traffic, a Bay Area nonprofit literary foundation, Bellamy lives in San Francisco, where she and her partner Kevin Killian publish the cutting-edge art-literary zine Mirage/Period[ical]. She teaches creative writing San Francisco State University. Novelist and theorist Doug Rice is the author of Blood of Mugwump: A Tiresian Tale of Incest (Black Ice Books, 1996) and A Good CuntBoy is Hard to Find (CPAOD Books, 1998), and is co-editor of Journey Into Chaos: A Casebook of the Life and Work of Ray Federman (San Diego State University Press, 1997). He is a professor of cultural studies and fiction writing at California State University, Sacramento. His work has appeared in numerous anthologies including Avant Pop (1993) and Chick of a Day (2000) and in journals including Plasm (1998), Fiction International (2002), and Discourse (2002). ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 10:40:06 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew Felsinger Subject: Kent Johnson's reading in San Francisco In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable I received a few inquires from this list regarding Kent Johnson's reading i= n San Francisco, now a whole MONTH AGO, and I thought I would let folks know that a tape was made and is available from the San Francisco Poetry Center. Just call 415-338-2227 and a tape can be had that has the complete reading with Kent and Erin Mour=E9. A wonderful reading that I thought could have gone on longer! After which Kent Johnson, myself, and Chris Daniels, the Lusophone translator of Fernando Pessoa, and wide array of Brazilian poets, along wit= h Steve Dickison, the Director of the Center, all headed out to Gino and Carlo's, Jack Spicer's old haunt, for beers and conversation. (Gino & Carlo's not in the least resembling any place you'd expect to see Spicer's ghost, alas!) Kent read from Doubled Flowering, the Epigrams, a book of Greek Translations, some of which can be found on the VeRT site, soon to be out o= f Skanky Possum, and from Immanent Visitor, a translation of poems from the Bolivian poet Jaime Saenz. (Immanent Visitor is just out from U of Cal Press.) A lot of ground to cover, to say the very least. The turn out was not altogether overwhelming, which seems to be par for the course in The City these days. Maybe the downturn here has really zapped th= e poets... or something? Best,=20 Andrew ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 14:27:13 -0500 Reply-To: "Patrick F. Durgin" Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Patrick F. Durgin" Subject: Downtown Music Gallery offers Kenning 12 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Downtown Music Gallery, a great source for new / avant / improvised music, is now carrying Kenning 12 / WAY - the audio edition. If you're not in NYC, you can place a mail order, and hop aboard their e-mail update list - http://www.dtmgallery.com/ Here's what they had to say about Kenning 12 / WAY - the audio edition in their latest update: > KENNING # 12 - The Audio Edition (Small Press Distribution) Kenning > is a newsletter of contemporary poetry and nonfiction writing. This > double cd presents some twenty-one poets and writers reciting their > special words, sometimes back by musicians, sometimes not. The > writers and musicians featured include Allen Ginsberg, Amiri Baraka, > Edwin Torres, Charles Bernstein, Seacreature, Hannah Weiner, Andrew > Levy & Gerry Hemingway, Bobbie West, Eileen Myles, Nathaniel Mackey, > Groundzero Telesonic Outfit International, plus many others. The > second cd features one long poem by Leslie Scalapino called "WAY". > Some of this poetry makes sense to me, some doesn't. Most of these > words are at least interesting and take some work to penetrate their > meaning. What does stand out is when someone plays with, chops up, > mixes serious with humorous intent. Each person/each work represents > a different character or idea or a way of putting something on > display. One excerpt is some folks on the street's response to the > question, "What is Language for?" Nothing goes on for too long to > lose it's appeal. Even Leslie Scalapino's lengthy "WAY" is pretty > interesting throughout it's nearly hour journey. Two CD only set for > $15. ------------ http://www.buffalo.edu/~pdurgin ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 14:53:43 -0500 Reply-To: "Patrick F. Durgin" Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Patrick F. Durgin" Subject: new at EPC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Catalina Cariaga's review-essay, "Desire and Predicament," on the Myung Mi Kim author page: epc.buffalo.edu/authors/kim (on Under Flag). ------------ http://www.buffalo.edu/~pdurgin ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 14:57:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: Virginia's Out With The Out Crowd Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed chimneys at the end of pictures borrowed forests suffer doubt considerable conclusion a posthumous confrontation a political appreciation closely associated with furnishings a plain sequence haunting as a skin her familiar to wear an apparition of landscape appearances the result of haunting cameras elsewhere are intimate, expressing frontier refusal forest looking up, resonant in the rain should illusion confer life or retirement the same ornaments suit an epitaph they are by chance double vision moral imprints of driven landscape cross-over leaves are rock audience determines the trademark, the procedure confirmed insignificant windows things do not paint the impossible broadcasting their wounds surfaces are exactly as dark as a term dramatic claims, these alone prove rigid each is further remembered should discernable disjuncture born elongation weeping is any business at the same time except past collapse ________________________________________________________________ My "Menetekelnde, oder Virginia's Butzenscheibe": wie uns die schon- unerwecktentiefer Finten, nackt Seelen betteln Fernen als ein kind, verloren, verortet, steht Kopf ohne Ende, gehorsame zu Ewig Klage Translation by Tony Banks: Like our deepest unwakeable ruse Naked souls beg distantly Like a child who is lost and disoriented The Leader stands obedient To eternal grievance Translation by David D'Angeli: as for the already- shoveled deeper ruses, naked souls beg distances as a child, lost, misplaced, goes wild without end, obedient to eternal complaint Arni Ibsen made an Icelandic version from my poem & the Banks translation: eins og gilda ur djupinu dypsta bioja naktar salir ur fjarska eins og glatao og attavillt barn stendur foringinn trur hinum eilifa ama _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 10:28:44 -1000 Reply-To: Bill Luoma Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Luoma Subject: Re: grand temps au prochain MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit kari, thank you. here is what happened after the game. http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/~luoma/peace/adir/ArTpLPAAh7aizA.html best, bill luoma ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 17:00:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Rothenberg Subject: Philip Whalen Memorial Reading MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Memorial poetry reading for Philip Whalen=20 at The Rubin Museum of Art, 115, 5th Avenue, 7th Floor,=20 6:00 p.m. on October 15 Michael Rothenberg walterblue@bigbridge.org Big Bridge www.bigbridge.org ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 16:02:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: Virginia Between The Acts Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed carefully wrenched perception planted grave songs beyond the convulsion echo of behavior, say a lifetime contented notice with zeal exhausted such rest a mouthful of minutes genuinely enjoying themselves the very point found it possible charming overburdened possession could follow brains so strong-minded, no object known spoken ill-mannered late persistence generations convey the division of the divine links religion had one instance only derived researches convey the grains conveys the inevitable conception of rabbinic law, which remains metempsychosis to a large extent the distance is sheer nonsense manifestations manifest sufficient punishments rationalizations influenced mysticism endeavor toward paraphrase underground heart played their part identity a host of errors and falsehoods veritable historical spirit treasure expanded the predecessor, hand-made wilds swamping 1000 years for my eye fountains between numbers & oaths death an identification with their secret the end of the alphabet promised to the Greeks corresponding governments have a picture in mind perfectly our account received a sight carried the favor, secure a storm heard the apologies aspiring to hard words whispers drawn through a short silence betrayed more than another motion welcomed the age, being spared contrast natural suspect despises implicated juncture read to the right closing admirers, sportive power paintings in boulders, suitably lamentable _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 14:31:45 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: Bad to the funny bone In-Reply-To: <20021008122548.63193.qmail@web10707.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v546) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Bad to the funny bone Purposely awful poetry, karaoke, stand-up find willing participants, appreciative audiences Sam McManis, Chronicle Deputy Living Editor, San Francisco Chronicle Sunday, October 13, 2002 http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2002/10/13/ LV190495.DTL#sections ------------------------------------------------------------------------ An anticipatory hush falls over the Blue Room, an avant-garde art gallery in San Francisco's Mission District, transformed for one night into a performance poetry space. Plastic folding chairs creak under the weight of squirming bodies. Someone muffles a cough. A cell-phone bleat is stifled. The microphone crackles with feedback. But it is utterly, almost uncomfortably, quiet by the time poet Dave Hadbawnik finally steps to the microphone. He is dressed up for the occasion, in a chocolate brown suit without a shred of natural fiber. This ill-fitting get-up, a '70s creation he found on the sidewalk for 2 bucks, will seem fitting attire in retrospect. No one scoffed at the shabby suit at the time, though, so engrossed were they in the artist and his "art." Hadbawnik begins to read a free-verse masterpiece he wrote two decades ago, at age 18. Its subject, naturally, is the prom. His delivery is sincere, impassioned; the poesy earnest, wrenching, straight from the gut. "For now let us dance across this wedding cake floor/ Knowing in the back of our dream drunk minds/ We will talk of this night/ Long after the helium has seeped out of these cheap balloons." Nervous titters and chuckles from the audience . . . "I will spin you round and round until we create our own gravity/ Until we can't see the lies floating up from the dance floor like signals from a satellite." Laughter bounces off the walls . . . "But we will stand alone, naked/ Shaded by trees of the most luscious fruit/ Hearing more truth in the silence than in the transient promises of a serpent's whisper." Full-throated guffaws, followed by wild applause . . . This tour de farce, by a published poet with a creative writing degree from Wayne State University in Detroit, was a highlight of a recent two-hour festival of bad poetry. Intentionally bad. The wink-wink, get-the-irony kind of bad. The expose-yourself-to-ridicule-and-laughs bad. Ten Bay Area poets, some also published novelists with high literary street cred, shared their clunky castoffs, mangled metaphors and asinine alliterations for the fun and amusement of an audience that actually paid to hear it. Why? Because it's entertaining. You've heard the expression "It's so bad it's good," right? Well, in this postmodern, ultra-ironic age, purposely bad performance by both professional artists and just plain folks seeking outlets of self-expression has become as hip, as de rigueur, in the Bay Area as using foreign words to feign sophistication. Last month's "bad poetry" reading filled the seats and no doubt made scores of people log on to Amazon.com to find actress Suzanne Somers' seminal chapbook of free verse, "Touch Me." At the Odeon bar in the Mission, Monday is Bad Karaoke Night, where the powerful combination of off-key singers and wretchedly sappy pop tunes entertains scores until last call. And, appearing somewhere unannounced on a Muni bus near you, a duo called the Sub-Standard Comix entertains riders with purposely awful stand-up material -- perhaps to make the long ride seem even longer. There's more bad out there. Lots more. BAD CAN BE GOOD In Fremont, a laid off dot-commer has found her true calling -- and significant Web traffic -- by launching a site (www.miserablemelodies.com) devoted to achingly bad cover versions of popular songs. And San Jose State's annual salute to purple prose, the Bulwer-Lytton Fiction Contest, receives scores of really good bad entries each year. The winners have the media calling them as if they had won a Pulitzer. It is not a new concept, by any means. Bad art has been around since, well, art. Purposely creating it, and taking pleasure from its bitter fruits, is another matter, though. Call it a "mirror reversal ethic," says Oakland writer Rephah Berg, this year's Bulwer-Lytton winner. "Bad works, done the right way, are funny," Berg said. "Normally we expect people to perform adequately at whatever they're doing. If they don't, a conflict exists between expectation and reality. That conflict can be exploited for the sake of humor." Or, put another way, it's fun to mock the talentless. Even if it's yourself. "It's a post-irony thing," said Michael Smoler, one of the organizers of the Bad Poetry night. "You've got to get to the other side of irony because it can become too fixed. Doing a bad reading is just breaking the monolith of taste. Art and poetry aren't there to tell people what's good." Perhaps, but people know bad when they see it. "I asked my brother, Greg, why people knowingly seek out bad movies, etc., and he replied, 'Because people like to look at accidents,' " said Sean Finney, one of the poets featured at the event. "I see it as a way for people to communicate." THEN THERE'S JEWEL At the start of the poetry event, Smoler pointed to a table where a copy of turgid poems by pop princess Jewel was on display. The crowd laughed, ready to mock her as they later would the Somers offering. But Smoler gave the elite audience something to think about. "OK, Jewel's poetry -- but is it really bad?" he asked. "Maybe it saved somebody's life once. Maybe a girl didn't slit her wrists, and so that's good, right? Another question: Do we, as poets, need to be invited to be bad?" Bad is subjective, of course. The line between sentiment and schmaltz can be thin and ever changing. Andrew Felsinger, a poet and editor of the online art magazine VeRT, devoted an entire issue to the subject of bad art. He read a few of the poems he published in his magazine, to howls of laughter from the audience. But when Felsinger told the crowd in advance that his next line was written by Walt Whitman -- "Through the scent of armpits in an aroma finer than prayer . . ." -- the audience remained respectfully quiet. "If it had been me who had uttered those words without the Whitman (attribution), it would have almost brought the house down," Felsinger said. It wasn't all smirking irony at the poetry event. Hadbawnik said that the event showed the "doubt and uncertainty" some of the city's best poets feel, how a well-intentioned poem can go bad. The poets can "get bogged down in the sentiment or the ego or trying too hard, which can be beautiful in its own way. " Hadbawnik said that even bad poetry has value because it's sincere. He had to look no farther than his high-school masterpiece about prom night. "When I wrote it, if someone had laughed at it the way people were, I would've been crushed," he said. "It was not written to be bad or funny -- which makes it even funnier, I know. . . . In the unintentional comedy of it you could also be touched or moved by the sincerity, the naivete." GROANERS ON MUNI Insincerity, however, oozed across town at the intentionally bad stand-up comedy gig. San Francisco resident Al Cummings, the mastermind behind the Sub- Standard Comix, says he and his anti-comedic troupe want to anger "people who are expecting a high standard and convince people that anyone can do this and this is a fun part of it, also." Last spring, Cummings and pals, fueled by several drinks called Chernobyls (Mountain Dew and vodka), stood up in a crowded Muni 31-Balboa bus and told awful jokes that elicited groans and perverse laughter. Example: "How do crazy people go through the forest? They take the psycho path." Cummings' art may have been lost on some Muni passengers. But he recently did a set at a nightclub on California Street, and, he said, people "got" his willful badness. Cummings pointed to the cult success of anti-comic comic Neil Hamburger -- who purposely tries to be bad and succeeds every time, and even has had a few decent-selling CDs -- as the template for awful stand-up. "I mean, we label ourselves 'substandard' so people will know," Cummings said. "It's an ironic play on the whole stand-up thing." At the Odeon bar, where Monday nights are dedicated to bad karaoke -- on- key singing is forbidden -- irony is scoured away. The participants are free to belt out a tune as agonizingly out of tune as they dare, without fear of mockery. D.J. Paul DeJong has hosted the bad karaoke for the past three months, and he knows what you're thinking: Isn't all karaoke bad karaoke? Yes, but he gives people permission not to even strive for mediocrity. "We're not mocking the people singing at all," he said. "It's more interactive. People will join in to help someone struggling through a song. It's refreshing to have someone step out of their normal role. Some karaoke singer who had really practiced and is good, that's just not as entertaining." Karaoke crooner Scott Mary, who performed a dicey version of Elvis' "Teddy Bear," said he liked the Odeon's noncompetitive style. "I feel intimidated at most karaoke places because everyone's going to take you seriously," Mary said. "I lived in Nashville this past summer, and you had people seriously trying to get discovered at karaoke bars. I like this type of atmosphere because it's a human performing. You see the screwups and the real emotion." B MOVIES AND BEYOND Amateurs such as the Odeon's singers can be excused for singing poorly and accepted as entertainment on a benign level. But when celebrities produce truly bad works, it seems more satisfying for regular folks to mock. The Internet is chock full of sites devoted to B movies and the Ed Wood oeuvre. That was the thinking behind Fremont resident Marion Briones' Web site dedicated to butchered songs, ones that started with good intentions but ended horribly. She pores over old vinyls at Rasputin Records, looking for gems such as William Shatner "singing" the Beatles' "Lucy in the Sky With Diamonds." She's built up quite a collection, too, and shares them on her site, which she says averages about 1,000 hits a day. "My husband asks me how I can listen to this stuff," Briones said. "I'm (a) classically trained (singer) and perfectly pitched. I don't know, it just strikes a funny nerve in me. Other people like it, too. To me, it wouldn't be funny if they were trying to be bad. But here we have pros who go into the studio and think they're producing real art." Briones said that last year she received an e-mail from a woman in Bosnia saying she appreciated the laughs. "Another woman went into premature labor when she heard my copy of this frail, elderly German woman named Gerty Molzen singing Lou Reed's 'Take a Walk on the Wild Side,' " Briones said. "Wait until people hear my latest find -- my father has an album of old San Francisco 49ers singing holiday songs. It's a classic." Perhaps. But it will have a hard time beating out San Francisco fiction writer Beth Lisick's interpretation of Suzanne Somers' musings: "Touch me in winter, when darkness comes early and softness of fur surrounds my face/ Touch me not like a cat/ Or a tree or even a flower/ For I am more than all of these, but akin to them/ Touch me, I am a poet, a woman." ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Bad stages Bad entertainment, it seems, can be separated into three subgenres: -- The Elbow-in-the-Ribs Bad, wherein entertainers intentionally produce putrid performances to mock established norms of what's high and low art. -- The Scrape-Away-Irony-and-Expectation Bad, wherein regular zhlubs liberate themselves from trying to be hip and professional and just let loose. -- The Professionally-Bad-as-Enjoyable, wherein pretentions of celebrities are pricked and their lame attempts to cross over into a genre not their own are mercilessly mocked. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 18:52:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jennifer Ley Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?B?s1doeSBpcyBjb2RlIHNvIGltcG9ydGFudCB0byBwcmE=?= =?ISO-8859-1?B?Y3RpdGlvbmVycyBvZiBuZXcgbWVkaWEgcG9ldHJ5P7I=?= In-Reply-To: <004301c27afc$5795fd70$9da45e0c@ghostf430> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable A few thoughts: Code is to the new media poet as language is to a lyric poet. Mouseovers can become metaphor, Javascripts can create assonance -- a new media poet=B9s primary expressive tool is the code s/he has written, acquired, adopted, recombined, modified, made her/his own. If poetry is the language art, to quote Marjorie Perloff, then I think code is the tool we wield to make that art. We become as comfortable handling i= t as any painter does a brush. But beyond that, code, bits and bytes of it, can become our rhyme scheme, our cadence, our iambic pentameter or, just as importantly the antithesis of any of these poetic conventions, the means by which digital language can become digital L=3DA=3DN=3DG=3DU=3DA=3DG=3DE. Jennifer Ley ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 17:37:28 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew Rathmann Subject: sociology of poetry & what can be done Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From a sociological point of view, I think we have to conclude that poetry's subordination to the academy has been bad for both departments of the culture. I say "sociological point of view" because I want to refer not to the unique cases but to the general levels of competence in each field. It is obvious, for example, that few college teachers know or care about the poetry of our time. They perceive it as being just another professional sub-specialty. The handful of scholars who do interest themselves in contemporary poetry tend, therefore, to wield undeserved influence over professional opinion -- just like the handfuls of scholars who work, for example, on Old Norse or the history of silent film. This would be as if scholars of music listened only to the music they studied. As for the quality of contemporary poetry, we can assert with some confidence that its weaknesses, in general, reflect a desire to conform to academic preconceptions about the "poetic" (and about "language"). The MFA mandarins instill their norms of poetry writing (colloquial, expressive), and the theory-driven mandarins assert theirs (paratactic, ambiguously expressive) -- and all the time most college teachers are either ill-informed or indifferent, so it is not even true that a future audience is being created. (And ironically the teachers who are most committed to literature -- those in the community colleges -- work with the students least likely to read after graduating.) If you have the necessary detachment, you can appreciate the absurdity of this situation. But it seems important, at this stage, to keep a positive outlook on what can be done to change it (enough of my carping). Thus far, we have heard articulate support expressed by Mark Wallace and Gary Sullivan for small presses, and also (by Jeffrey Jullich) for more honest and thoughtful reviewing. Again, sociologically speaking, both of these ideas point toward the establishment of a more independent poetic culture. Personally, I'm cheered by this prospect, and would like to hear more such discussion. Andy ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 22:05:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Kimmelman, Burt" Subject: Books Launch - Marsh Hawk Press MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Marsh Hawk Press is pleased to announce the launch of its Fall 2002 books and readings by the poets=20 Wed., November 6 at Cornelia Street Caf=E9, 29 Cornelia St., NYC, 6 = p.m.=20 EDWARD FOSTER: MAHREM: Things Men Should Do for Men=20 STEPHEN PAUL MILLER: The Bee Flies in May=20 HARRIET ZINNES: Drawing on the Wall=20 Thu., Nov.14 at Asian-American Writers Workshop, 16 W.32nd St., fl.10, NYC, 7 EILEEN R. TABIOS: Reproductions of the Empty Flagpole=20 and=20 Saturday, November 16 at Bowery Poetry Club, 308 Bowery, NYC, 1 p.m. EILEEN R. TABIOS with Spring 2002 poets THOMAS FINK & JANE AUGUSTINE=20 Other Marsh Hawk Press events:=20 BOOK PARTY and birthday celebration on Sat. Oct. 19 for Marsh Hawk = Press poet and founder of The Poetry Mailing List, Inc. STEPHEN PAUL MILLER = at 1 p.m.=20 Bowery Poetry Club=20 READING on Sat. Nov.9 MHP poets ED FOSTER, SANDY MCINTOSH, & STEPHEN PAUL MILLER=20 See our website www.marshhawkpress.org for ordering information ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 22:16:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Rosenberg Subject: Re: ?Why is code so important to practitioners of new media poetry?? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline --On Sunday, October 13, 2002 6:52 PM -0400 Jennifer Ley wrote: > Code is to the new media poet as language is to a lyric poet. Uh, Jen, don't you think you ought to make it clear you are speaking for yourself? You're certainly not speaking for me ... Just which code are we talking about? Microsoft's, for instance? The poet's code is what percent of the total code involved in bringing you a new media poem -- .00001% perhaps? I think we need to be pretty careful here. This all gets very very very complicated. I prefer the statement that *WORDS* are to the new media poet as words are to the lyric poet. Code is there, now, in the toolkit, as an *option*. To insist that code tools are more than just an option is an aggressive assertion with which reasonable people will differ. I for one am uncomfortable with making other poets uncomfortable over the fact that they're not comfortable with tools like javascript -- which is a rather bad programming language, by the way -- the poet *shouldn't have to write code*. The fact that new media poets do have to write some small bits of code (a program under 10,000 lines of code counts as small -- and yes, I have written some systems that are not small -- I wrote an entire word processor once) is simply a testimony to the fact that the current generation of tools is not serving us very well. If we had the right tools, the poet would have to write no code at all. There are painters who get us to look at the stretcher as part of what they do. There are painters who don't want us to think about the stretcher. The only one who is "wrong" is the dogmatist who insists there is only one way to think about this. Don't you think we should have the same attitude toward code? My view is: the best code is the code the poet doesn't have to write at all, and the second best code is the code that is *disappearable*. Others will disagree, of course. In the end, it's the words that matter, as they always have. --- Jim Rosenberg http://www.well.com/user/jer/ WELL: jer Internet: jr@amanue.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 19:36:55 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MWP Subject: Indentations Upon Indentations In-Reply-To: <6509184.1034547360@localhost> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit HI Would any of you great poets care to explain why certain practitioners of the poetic art choose to put all of those different indentation levels in their work? You know what I mean, like this: the visible as in the past subsisting in layered zone refuses to dangle oaths on marsh field [etc.] (Barbara Guest) I have my own autodidactically formed ideas on the subject that may be way off insofar as I have never come upon a good solid reason as to why such a multiplicity of indentations -- (or rather, a la Guest, blurred edges) -- are there or what purpose they serve in moving the poem along. I must say, though, if nothing else that it does make a poem look staunchly modern and damn fine, and perhaps has something deeply to do with Olson's notion of field, but beyond that I am not quite sure. Also, does anybody know who was the first to employ this sort of thing, and has it arguably become somewhat done to death by now? Excuse me if this is a question that the academy has, like, written reams about without my knowing. I am one who prefers the bohemian life to a desk job, so I hope one will excuse the gaping holes in my knowledge as well as my pants. -m ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 23:00:02 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Rothenberg Subject: Re: Indentations Upon Indentations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DEAR -M There are all kinds of historical examples of line placement, something as simple as a line break, coupling of lines, reinforcement of rhyme patterning, indentation, beginning of new thought, concrete poems going back several hundred years, haiku, any positioning at any time in literary time is as much a part of line placement as any present idea of field in this time, or what might follow, if you like, it's not mere fashion or decoration, though might be used for either, so arguably it can't be overdone as long as there is another breath taken, mind, eye, sound movement, broken thought, resumption, idea willing to stand on it's own, or lean on another, verse, rhythm, bent flower, wall ----- Original Message ----- From: "MWP" To: Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 10:36 PM Subject: Indentations Upon Indentations > HI > Would any of you great poets care to explain why certain practitioners of > the poetic art choose to put all of those different indentation levels in > their work? You know what I mean, like this: > > the visible > > as in the past > > subsisting in layered zone > > refuses to dangle > > oaths on marsh field > [etc.] > > (Barbara Guest) > > I have my own autodidactically formed ideas on the subject that may be way > off insofar as I have never come upon a good solid reason as to why such a > multiplicity of indentations -- (or rather, a la Guest, blurred edges) -- > are there or what purpose they serve in moving the poem along. I must say, > though, if nothing else that it does make a poem look staunchly modern and > damn fine, and perhaps has something deeply to do with Olson's notion of > field, but beyond that I am not quite sure. Also, does anybody know who was > the first to employ this sort of thing, and has it arguably become somewhat > done to death by now? > > Excuse me if this is a question that the academy has, like, written reams > about without my knowing. I am one who prefers the bohemian life to a desk > job, so I hope one will excuse the gaping holes in my knowledge as well as > my pants. > > > -m > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 16:12:00 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Wystan Curnow (FOA ENG)" Subject: Re: sociology of poetry & what can be done MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Andy, I really don't understand what you are talking about? Is that because we live in different countries? You refer to 'fields' --which fields do you live in? I live in a city. You refer to the academy? Which academy, where? You refer to sociology, what kind of sociology? You speak in the third person, who are the others that make you so plural? Wystan -----Original Message----- From: Andrew Rathmann [mailto:andyrathmann@EARTHLINK.NET] Sent: Monday, 14 October 2002 2:37 p.m. To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: sociology of poetry & what can be done From a sociological point of view, I think we have to conclude that poetry's subordination to the academy has been bad for both departments of the culture. I say "sociological point of view" because I want to refer not to the unique cases but to the general levels of competence in each field. It is obvious, for example, that few college teachers know or care about the poetry of our time. They perceive it as being just another professional sub-specialty. The handful of scholars who do interest themselves in contemporary poetry tend, therefore, to wield undeserved influence over professional opinion -- just like the handfuls of scholars who work, for example, on Old Norse or the history of silent film. This would be as if scholars of music listened only to the music they studied. As for the quality of contemporary poetry, we can assert with some confidence that its weaknesses, in general, reflect a desire to conform to academic preconceptions about the "poetic" (and about "language"). The MFA mandarins instill their norms of poetry writing (colloquial, expressive), and the theory-driven mandarins assert theirs (paratactic, ambiguously expressive) -- and all the time most college teachers are either ill-informed or indifferent, so it is not even true that a future audience is being created. (And ironically the teachers who are most committed to literature -- those in the community colleges -- work with the students least likely to read after graduating.) If you have the necessary detachment, you can appreciate the absurdity of this situation. But it seems important, at this stage, to keep a positive outlook on what can be done to change it (enough of my carping). Thus far, we have heard articulate support expressed by Mark Wallace and Gary Sullivan for small presses, and also (by Jeffrey Jullich) for more honest and thoughtful reviewing. Again, sociologically speaking, both of these ideas point toward the establishment of a more independent poetic culture. Personally, I'm cheered by this prospect, and would like to hear more such discussion. Andy ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 23:58:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: Inside/outside the academy MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Nick and Jane, I realized after sending my last post I was really talking about (or trying to talk about) more of a personal access kind of question. A short while back a reader (who happens to be a professor of communication) brought it to my attention that a lot of my work related to the dilemma of not communicating while saying that I am trying to communicate. I can see this more readily in Beckett and I suspect this ambivalence might be characteristic of many poets. ambivalently speaking, that is, tom bell ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 17:57:44 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: Indentations Upon Indentations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I too have also wondered about it: I agree it correlates with Olson's ideaas but also it goes back to mallarke's famous "The First throow of a Dice..." which is invarious things and you may know also in "Poems for the Millenium" by Rothenberg and Joris. It took me a long time to stop writing in the "mormative " poetic form and only my "The Infinite Poem" did I "go crazy" and i recall once showing a poem (it wasnt a very good poem) to Wystan Curnow at areading and he said: "Ewww, its in lines!" which was fair enough. It in fact took me a while to use lower case and in fact I can only surmie hat that is 1) Habit (enculturation) of which subject certainly Murat and George B will enlighten you greatly 2) to some extent (via Habit) it is a kind of conservative so 1) and 2) are linked but I often wondered. Why the indentations adn why should they go "herre"rather" than there. I came to use it sometimes (if I wasnt doing "block-shaped" prose poems to allow space (and also because a lot of other poets I saw were doing it hence Enculturation (not necessarily "bad") and also for poems where we have a lot of words on their own the disjunctions interact with possible conjunctions (parataxis etc)... also in Williams the "stepping down" someties 'echoes" or complements the "movement" of the poem. The other question is also of course "why not?" but I like your question: its something that's 'nagged' me for a while. Nick Piombino, Al Sond, Barratt Watten , Amnselm Hollo, or R Silliman or any of innumerabe others may wish to reply at this jucncture. Richard Taylor. ----- Original Message ----- From: "MWP" To: Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 3:36 PM Subject: Indentations Upon Indentations > HI > Would any of you great poets care to explain why certain practitioners of > the poetic art choose to put all of those different indentation levels in > their work? You know what I mean, like this: > > the visible > > as in the past > > subsisting in layered zone > > refuses to dangle > > oaths on marsh field > [etc.] > > (Barbara Guest) > > I have my own autodidactically formed ideas on the subject that may be way > off insofar as I have never come upon a good solid reason as to why such a > multiplicity of indentations -- (or rather, a la Guest, blurred edges) -- > are there or what purpose they serve in moving the poem along. I must say, > though, if nothing else that it does make a poem look staunchly modern and > damn fine, and perhaps has something deeply to do with Olson's notion of > field, but beyond that I am not quite sure. Also, does anybody know who was > the first to employ this sort of thing, and has it arguably become somewhat > done to death by now? > > Excuse me if this is a question that the academy has, like, written reams > about without my knowing. I am one who prefers the bohemian life to a desk > job, so I hope one will excuse the gaping holes in my knowledge as well as > my pants. > > > -m ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 21:59:12 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: Why is code so important to practitioners of new media poetry? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I agree here with jennifer...just want to add this.... it's funny, i was just thinking about this earlier this evening...talked to august highland on the phone saturday night, and he got me thinking about the schism that is often perceived between "coders" & "creatives"=====coders like hard logic, while creatives are, well, creative...deena larsen i also believe in a chat at trAce brought up the point, well, it's come to the point where we're asking poets to blend image text and sound, isn't it a bit much to ask them to program to? my thoughts? no, it's not too much...in fact, the artist in the future will blend all of this quite easily...(she already is, all over places like rhizome and furtherfield)...me, i love code...& i love poetry...& they're not different from each other, y'know...before i created "new media" works, i often thought of the poem as an emotional little computer program...we code incessantly, all the time, it's just not always "machine code" (neither is the code we use to get the machine to do what we want, really...the machine only understands ones and zeroes, on and off)....semiotics is the study of the codes we use...linguistics studies a code...IT'S ALL CODE... so, essentially, it's important not simply because it's our brush, but also because we were doing it before we even picked up this particular brush...you were too...in fact, you're doing it right now... bliss l JENNIFER:A few thoughts: Code is to the new media poet as language is to a lyric poet. Mouseovers can become metaphor, Javascripts can create assonance -- a new media poet¹s primary expressive tool is the code s/he has written, acquired, adopted, recombined, modified, made her/his own. If poetry is the language art, to quote Marjorie Perloff, then I think code is the tool we wield to make that art. We become as comfortable handling it as any painter does a brush. But beyond that, code, bits and bytes of it, can become our rhyme scheme, our cadence, our iambic pentameter or, just as importantly the antithesis of any of these poetic conventions, the means by which digital language can become digital L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E. Jennifer Ley ===== http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html meditation, net art, poeisis: blog http://lewislacook.blogspot.com/ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 23:22:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: From the horse's mouth Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" I went to lunch with Donald Allen yesterday and asked him why, for example, Muriel Rukeyser wasn't one of the poets he included in "The New American Poetry." Was it because, as some have speculated, he considered her part of the "1.5" generation which included Patchen, Zukofsky, Rexroth. "No," he replied. "I just never thought much of her work. She was everything the book was supposed to be against. I had met her in Berkeley, but got to know her after I met Octavio Paz, first in Mexico City, then in New York. He wanted me to publish Rukeyser's translations of his poems. I thought they were awful." Her own poetry? "Does she have her partisans?" "I'm one," I flared out. "I mean, she's good and she's bad. We all have our ups and downs." He considered. We were at Benihana and the chef was throwing things up in the air and stabbing them with knives then pinning them down on a big hot steel table and the steam was hissing like mad. "Bit of a sentimentalist." Afterwards I thought, but yet look at our dear John Wieners and he was a bit of a sentimentalist and what was wrong with that? But, it was all so long ago and far away. It's hard to transport oneself back to another time. -- Kevin K. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 23:25:38 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: Utopian Plagiarism, Hypertextuality, and Electronic Cultural Production//Critical Art Ensemble Comments: cc: wryting , julia stroup , Tom Suhar , matt swarthout , Steve Snowberger , Jepson Staral , john scmidt , stephanie sesic greer , "propaganda@0100101110101101.org" , tony meda , Dennis Matthews , Jeffrey Jullich , Jarred Hoghe , Kathe Davis , Kathryn Dean-Dielman , claudia cortese , angela beallor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Utopian Plagiarism, Hypertextuality, and Electronic Cultural Production The Critical Art Ensemble Plagiarism has long been considered an evil in the cultural world. Typically it has been viewed as the theft of language, ideas, and images by the less than talented, often for the enhancement of personal fortune or prestige. Yet, like most mythologies, the myth of plagiarism is easily inverted. Perhaps it is those who support the legislation of representation and the privatization of language that are suspect; perhaps the plagiarist's actions, given a specific set of social conditions, are the ones contributing most to cultural enrichment. Prior to the Enlightenment, plagiarism was useful in aiding the distribution of ideas. An English poet could appropriate and translate a sonnet from Petrarch and call it his own. In accordance with the classical aesthetic of art as imitation, this was a perfectly acceptable practice. The real value of this activity rested less in the reinforcement of classical aesthetics than in the distribution of work to areas where otherwise it probably would not have appeared. The works of English plagiarists, such as Chaucer, Shakespeare, Spenser, Sterne, Coleridge, and De Quincey, are still a vital part of the English heritage, and remain in the literary canon to this day. At present, new conditions have emerged that once again make plagiarism an acceptable, even crucial strategy for textual production. This is the age of the recombinant: recombinant bodies, recombinant gender, recombinant texts, recombinant culture. Looking back through the privileged frame of hindsight, one can argue that the recombinant has always been key in the development of meaning and invention; recent extraordinary advances in electronic technology have called attention to the recombinant both in theory and in practice (for example, the use of morphing in video and film). The primary value of all electronic technology, especially computers and imaging systems, is the startling speed at which they can transmit information in both raw and refined forms. As information flows at a high velocity through the electronic networks, disparate and sometimes incommensurable systems of meaning intersect, with both enlightening and inventive consequences. In a society dominated by a "knowledge" explosion, exploring the possibilities of meaning in that which already exists is more pressing than adding redundant information (even if it is produced using the methodology and metaphysic of the "original"). In the past, arguments in favor of plagiarism were limited to showing its use in resisting the privatization of culture that serves the needs and desires of the power elite. Today one can argue that plagiarism is acceptable, even inevitable, given the nature of postmodern existence with its techno-infrastructure. In a recombinant culture, plagiarism is productive, although we need not abandon the romantic model of cultural production which privileges a model of ex nihilo creation. Certainly in a general sense the latter model is somewhat anachronistic. There are still specific situations where such thinking is useful, and one can never be sure when it could become appropriate again. What is called for is an end to its tyranny and to its institutionalized cultural bigotry. This is a call to open the cultural data base, to let everyone use the technology of textual production to its maximum potential. "Ideas improve. The meaning of words participates in the improvement. Plagiarism is necessary. Progress implies it. It embraces an author's phrase, makes use of his expressions, erases a false idea, and replaces it with the right idea."(1) Plagiarism often carries a weight of negative connotations (particularly in the bureaucratic class); while the need for its use has increased over the century, plagiarism itself has been camouflaged in a new lexicon by those desiring to explore the practice as method and as a legitimized form of cultural discourse. Readymades, collage, found art or found text, intertexts, combines, detournment, and appropriation - all these terms represent explorations in plagiarism. Indeed, these terms are not perfectly synonymous, but they all intersect a set of meanings primary to the philosophy and activity of plagiarism. Philosophically, they all stand in opposition to essentialist doctrines of the text: They all assume that no structure within a given text provides a universal and necessary meaning. No work of art or philosophy exhausts itself in itself alone, in its beingin- itself. Such works have always stood in relation to the actual life-process of society from which they have distinguished themselves. Enlightenment essentialism failed to provide a unit of analysis that could act as a basis of meaning. Just as the connection between a signifier and its referent is arbitrary, the unit of meaning used for any given textual analysis is also arbitrary. Roland Barthes' notion of the lexia primarily indicates surrender in the search for a basic unit of meaning. Since language was the only tool available for the development of metalanguage, such a project was doomed from its inception. It was much like trying to eat soup with soup. The text itself is fluid - although the language game of ideology can provide the illusion of stability, creating blockage by manipulating the unacknowledged assumptions of everyday life. Consequently, one of the main goals of the plagiarist is to restore the dynamic and unstable drift of meaning, by appropriating and recombining fragments of culture. In this way, meanings can be produced that were not previously associated with an object or a given set of objects. Marcel Duchamp, one of the first to understand the power of recombination, presented an early incarnation of this new aesthetic with his readymade series. Duchamp took objects to which he was "visually indifferent," and recontextualized them in a manner that shifted their meaning. For example, by taking a urinal out of the rest room, signing it, and placing it on a pedestal in an art gallery, meaning slid away from the apparently exhaustive functional interpretation of the object. Although this meaning did not completely disappear, it was placed in harsh juxtaposition to another possibility - meaning as an art object. This problem of instability increased when problems of origin were raised: The object was not made by an artist, but by a machine. Whether or not the viewer chose to accept other possibilities for interpreting the function of the artist and the authenticity of the art object, the urinal in a gallery instigated a moment of uncertainty and reassessment. This conceptual game has been replayed numerous times over the 20th century, at times for very narrow purposes, as with Rauschenberg's combines - done for the sake of attacking the critical hegemony of Clement Greenberg - while at other times it has been done to promote large-scale political and cultural restructuring, as in the case of the Situationists. In each case, the plagiarist works to open meaning through the injection of scepticism into the culturetext. Here one also sees the failure of Romantic essentialism. Even the alleged transcendental object cannot escape the sceptics' critique. Duchamp's notion of the inverted readymade (turning a Rembrandt painting into an ironing board) suggested that the distinguished art object draws its power from a historical legitimation process firmly rooted in the institutions of western culture, and not from being an unalterable conduit to transcendental realms. This is not to deny the possibility of transcendental experience, but only to say that if it does exist, it is prelinguistic, and thereby relegated to the privacy of an individual's subjectivity. A society with a complex division of labor requires a rationalization of institutional processes, a situation which in turn robs the individual of a way to share nonrational experience. Unlike societies with a simple division of labor, in which the experience of one member closely resembles the experience of another (minimal alienation), under a complex division of labor, the life experience of the individual turned specialist holds little in common with other specialists. Consequently, communication exists primarily as an instrumental function. Plagiarism has historically stood against the privileging of any text through spiritual, scientific, or other legitimizing myths. The plagiarist sees all objects as equal, and thereby horizontalizes the plane of phenomena. All texts become potentially usable and reusable. Herein lies an epistemology of anarchy, according to which the plagiarist argues that if science, religion, or any other social institution precludes certainty beyond the realm of the private, then it is best to endow consciousness with as many categories of interpretation as possible. The tyranny of paradigms may have some useful consequences (such as greater efficiency within the paradigm), but the repressive costs to the individual (excluding other modes of thinking and reducing the possibility of invention) are too high. Rather than being led by sequences of signs, one should instead drift through them, choosing the interpretation best suited to the social conditions of a given situation. "It is a matter of throwing together various cut-up techniques in order to respond to the omnipresence of transmitters feeding us with their dead discourses (mass media, publicity, etc.). It is a question of unchaining the codes - not the subject anymore - so that something will burst out, will escape; words beneath words, personal obsessions. Another kind of word is born which escapes from the totalitarianism of the media but retains their power, and turns it against their old masters." Cultural production, literary or otherwise, has traditionally been a slow, labor-intensive process. In painting, sculpture, or written work, the technology has always been primitive by contemporary standards. Paintbrushes, hammers and chisels, quills and paper, and even the printing press do not lend themselves well to rapid production and broad-range distribution. The time lapse between production and distribution can seem unbearably long. Book arts and traditional visual arts still suffer tremendously from this problem, when compared to the electronic arts. Before electronic technology became dominant, cultural perspectives developed in a manner that more clearly defined texts as individual works. Cultural fragments appeared in their own right as discrete units, since their influence moved slowly enough to allow the orderly evolution of an argument or an aesthetic. Boundaries could be maintained between disciplines and schools of thought. Knowledge was considered finite, and was therefore easier to control. In the 19th century this traditional order began to collapse as new technology began to increase the velocity of cultural development. The first strong indicators began to appear that speed was becoming a crucial issue. Knowledge was shifting away from certitude, and transforming itself into information. During the American Civil War, Lincoln sat impatiently by his telegraph line, awaiting reports from his generals at the front. He had no patience with the long-winded rhetoric of the past, and demanded from his generals an efficient economy of language. There was no time for the traditional trappings of the elegant essayist. Cultural velocity and information have continued to increase at a geometric rate since then, resulting in an information panic. Production and distribution of information (or any other product) must be immediate; there can be no lag time between the two. Techno-culture has met this demand with data bases and electronic networks that rapidly move any type of information. Under such conditions, plagiarism fulfills the requirements of economy of representation, without stifling invention. If invention occurs when a new perception or idea is brought out - by intersecting two or more formally disparate systems - then recombinant methodologies are desirable. This is where plagiarism progresses beyond nihilism. It does not simply inject scepticism to help destroy totalitarian systems that stop invention; it participates in invention, and is thereby also productive. The genius of an inventor like Leonardo da Vinci lay in his ability to recombine the then separate systems of biology, mathematics, engineering, and art. He was not so much an originator as a synthesizer. There have been few people like him over the centuries, because the ability to hold that much data in one's own biological memory is rare. Now, however, the technology of recombination is available in the computer. The problem now for would-be cultural producers is to gain access to this technology and information. After all, access is the most precious of all privileges, and is therefore strictly guarded, which in turn makes one wonder whether to be a successful plagiarist, one must also be a successful hacker. "Most serious writers refuse to make themselves available to the things that technology is doing. I have never been able to understand this sort of fear. Many are afraid of using tape recorders, and the idea of using any electronic means for literary or artistic purposes seems to them some sort of sacrilege." To some degree, a small portion of technology has fallen through the cracks into the hands of the lucky few. Personal computers and video cameras are the best examples. To accompany these consumer items and make their use more versatile, hypertextual and image sampling programs have also been developed - programs designed to facilitate recombination. It is the plagiarist's dream to be able to call up, move, and recombine text with simple user-friendly commands. Perhaps plagiarism rightfully belongs to post-book culture, since only in that society can it be made explicit what book culture, with its geniuses and auteurs, tends to hide - that information is most useful when it interacts with other information, rather than when it is deified and presented in a vacuum. Thinking about a new means for recombining information has always been on 20th-century minds, although this search has been left to a few until recently. In 1945 Vannevar Bush, a former science advisor to Franklin D. Roosevelt, proposed a new way of organizing information in an Atlantic Monthly article. At that time, computer technology was in its earliest stages of development and its full potential was not really understood. Bush, however, had the foresight to imagine a device he called the Memex. In his view it would be based around storage of information on microfilm, integrated with some means to allow the user to select and display any section at will, thus enabling one to move freely among previously unrelated increments of information. At the time, Bush's Memex could not be built, but as computer technology evolved, his idea eventually gained practicality. Around 1960 Theodor Nelson made this realization when he began studying computer programming in college: "Over a period of months, I came to realize that, although programmers structured their data hierarchically, they didn't have to. I began to see the computer as the ideal place for making interconnections among things accessible to people. I realized that writing did not have to be sequential and that not only would tomorrow's books and magazines be on [cathode ray terminal] screens, they could all tie to one another in every direction. At once I began working on a program (written in 7090 assembler language) to carry out these ideas." Nelson's idea, which he called hypertext, failed to attract any supporters at first, although by 1968 its usefulness became obvious to some in the government and in defense industries. A prototype of hypertext was developed by another computer innovator, Douglas Englebart, who is often credited with many breakthroughs in the use of computers (such as the development of the Macintosh interface, Windows). Englebart's system, called Augment, was applied to organizing the government's research network, ARPAnet, and was also used by McDonnell Douglas, the defense contractor, to aid technical work groups in coordinating projects such as aircraft design: "All communications are automatically added to the Augment information base and linked, when appropriate, to other documents. An engineer could, for example, use Augment to write and deliver electronically a work plan to others in the work group. The other members could then review the document and have their comments linked to the original, eventually creating a "group memory" of the decisions made. Augment's powerful linking features allow users to find even old information quickly, without getting lost or being overwhelmed by detail." Computer technology continued to be refined, and eventually - as with so many other technological breakthroughs in this country - once it had been thoroughly exploited by military and intelligence agencies, the technology was released for commercial exploitation. Of course, the development of microcomputers and consumer-grade technology for personal computers led immediately to the need for software which would help one cope with the exponential increase in information, especially textual information. Probably the first humanistic application of hypertext was in the field of education. Currently, hypertext and hypermedia (which adds graphic images to the network of features which can be interconnected) continue to be fixtures in instructional design and educational technology. An interesting experiment in this regard was instigated in 1975 by Robert Scholes and Andries Van Dam at Brown University. Scholes, a professor of English, was contacted by Van Dam, a professor of computer science, who wanted to know if there were any courses in the humanities that might benefit from using what at the time was called a text-editing system (now known as a word processor) with hypertext capabilities built in. Scholes and two teaching assistants, who formed a research group, were particularly impressed by one aspect of hypertext. Using this program would make it possible to peruse in a nonlinear fashion all the interrelated materials in a text. A hypertext is thus best seen as a web of interconnected materials. This description suggested that there is a definite parallel between the conception of culture-text and that of hypertext: "One of the most important facets of literature (and one which also leads to difficulties in interpretation) is its reflexive nature. Individual poems constantly develop their meanings - often through such means as direct allusion or the reworking of traditional motifs and conventions, at other times through subtler means, such as genre development and expansion or biographical reference - by referring to that total body of poetic material of which the particular poems comprise a small segment." Although it was not difficult to accumulate a hypertextually-linked data base consisting of poetic materials, Scholes and his group were more concerned with making it interactive - that is, they wanted to construct a "communal text" including not only the poetry, but also incorporating the comments and interpretations offered by individual students. In this way, each student in turn could read a work and attach "notes" to it about his or her observations. The resulting "expanded text" would be read and augmented at a terminal on which the screen was divided into four areas. The student could call up the poem in one of the areas (referred to as windows) and call up related materials in the other three windows, in any sequence he or she desired. This would powerfully reinforce the tendency to read in a nonlinear sequence. By this means, each student would learn how to read a work as it truly exists, not in "a vacuum" but rather as the central point of a progressively-revealed body of documents and ideas. Hypertext is analogous to other forms of literary discourse besides poetry. From the very beginning of its manifestation as a computer program, hypertext was popularly described as a multidimensional text roughly analogous to the standard scholarly article in the humanities or social sciences, because it uses the same conceptual devices, such as footnotes, annotations, allusions to other works, quotations from other works, etc. Unfortunately, the convention of linear reading and writing, as well as the physical fact of two-dimensional pages and the necessity of binding them in only one possible sequence, have always limited the true potential of this type of text. One problem is that the reader is often forced to search through the text (or forced to leave the book and search elsewhere) for related information. This is a time-consuming and distracting process; instead of being able to move easily and instantly among physically remote or inaccessible areas of information storage, the reader must cope with cumbrous physical impediments to his or her research or creative work. With the advent of hypertext, it has become possible to move among related areas of information with a speed and flexibility that at least approach finally accommodating the workings of human intellect, to a degree that books and sequential reading cannot possibly allow. "The recombinant text in hypertextual form signifies the emergence of the perception of textual constellations that have always/already gone nova. It is in this uncanny luminosity that the authorial biomorph has been consumed."(2) Barthes and Foucault may be lauded for theorizing the death of the author; the absent author is more a matter of everyday life, however, for the technocrat recombining and augmenting information at the computer or at a video editing console. S/he is living the dream of capitalism that is still being refined in the area of manufacture. The Japanese notion of "just in time delivery," in which the units of assembly are delivered to the assembly line just as they are called for, was a first step in streamlining the tasks of assembly. In such a system, there is no sedentary capital, but a constant flow of raw commodities. The assembled commodity is delivered to the distributor precisely at the moment of consumer need. This nomadic system eliminates stockpiles of goods. (There still is some dead time; however, the Japanese have cut it to a matter of hours, and are working on reducing it to a matter of minutes). In this way, production, distribution, and consumption are imploded into a single act, with no beginning or end, just unbroken circulation. In the same manner, the online text flows in an unbroken stream through the electronic network. There can be no place for gaps that mark discrete units in the society of speed. Consequently, notions of origin have no place in electronic reality. The production of the text presupposes its immediate distribution, consumption, and revision. All who participate in the network also participate in the interpretation and mutation of the textual stream. The concept of the author did not so much die as it simply ceased to function. The author has become an abstract aggregate that cannot be reduced to biology or to the psychology of personality. Indeed, such a development has apocalyptic connotations - the fear that humanity will be lost in the textual stream. Perhaps humans are not capable of participating in hypervelocity. One must answer that never has there been a time when humans were able, one and all, to participate in cultural production. Now, at least the potential for cultural democracy is greater. The single bio-genius need not act as a stand-in for all humanity. The real concern is just the same as it has always been: the need for access to cultural resources. "The discoveries of postmodern art and criticism regarding the analogical structures of images demonstrate that when two objects are brought together, no matter how far apart their contexts may be, a relationship is formed. Restricting oneself to a personal relationship of words is mere convention. The bringing together of two independent expressions supersedes the original elements and produces a synthetic organization of greater possibility."(3) The book has by no means disappeared. The publishing industry continues to resist the emergence of the recombinant text, and opposes increases in cultural speed. It has set itself in the gap between production and consumption of texts, which for purposes of survival it is bound to maintain. If speed is allowed to increase, the book is doomed to perish, along with its renaissance companions painting and sculpture. This is why the industry is so afraid of the recombinant text. Such a work closes the gap between production and consumption, and opens the industry to those other than the literary celebrity. If the industry is unable to differentiate its product through the spectacle of originality and uniqueness, its profitability collapses. Consequently, the industry plods along, taking years to publish information needed immediately. Yet there is a peculiar irony to this situation. In order to reduce speed, it must also participate in velocity in its most intense form, that of spectacle. It must claim to defend "quality and standards," and it must invent celebrities. Such endeavors require the immediacy of advertising - that is, full participation in the simulacra that will be the industry's own destruction. Hence for the bureaucrat, from an everyday life perspective, the author is alive and well. S/he can be seen and touched and traces of h/is existence are on the covers of books and magazines everywhere in the form of the signature. To such evidence, theory can only respond with the maxim that the meaning of a given text derives exclusively from its relation to other texts. Such texts are contingent upon what came before them, the context in which they are placed, and the interpretive ability of the reader. This argument is of course unconvincing to the social segments caught in cultural lag. So long as this is the case, no recognized historical legitimation will support the producers of recombinant texts, who will always be suspect to the keepers of "high" culture. "Take your own words or the words said to be 'the very own words' of anyone else living or dead. You will soon see that words do not belong to anyone. Words have a vitality of their own. Poets are supposed to liberate the words - not to chain them in phrases. Poets have no words 'of their very own.' Writers do not own their words. Since when do words belong to anybody? 'Your very own words' indeed! and who are 'you'?" The invention of the video portapak in the late 1960s and early 70s led to considerable speculation among radical media artists that in the near future, everyone would have access to such equipment, causing a revolution in the television industry. Many hoped that video would become the ultimate tool for distributable democratic art. Each home would become its own production center, and the reliance on network television for electronic information would be only one of many options. Unfortunately this prophecy never came to pass. In the democratic sense, video did little more than super 8 film to redistribute the possibility for image production, and it has had little or no effect on image distribution. Any video besides home movies has remained in the hands of an elite technocratic class, although (as with any class) there are marginalized segments which resist the media industry, and maintain a program of decentralization. The video revolution failed for two reasons - a lack of access and an absence of desire. Gaining access to the hardware, particularly post-production equipment, has remained as difficult as ever, nor are there any regular distribution points beyond the local public access offered by some cable TV franchises. It has also been hard to convince those outside of the technocratic class why they should want to do something with video, even if they had access to equipment. This is quite understandable when one considers that media images are provided in such an overwhelming quantity that the thought of producing more is empty. The contemporary plagiarist faces precisely the same discouragement. The potential for generating recombinant texts at present is just that, potential. It does at least have a wider base, since the computer technology for making recombinant texts has escaped the technocratic class and spread to the bureaucratic class; however, electronic cultural production has by no means become the democratic form that utopian plagiarists hope it will be. The immediate problems are obvious. The cost of technology for productive plagiarism is still too high. Even if one chooses to use the less efficient form of a hand-written plagiarist manuscript, desktop publishing technology is required to distribute it, since no publishing house will accept it. Further, the population in the US is generally skilled only as receivers of information, not as producers. With this exclusive structure solidified, technology and the desire and ability to use it remain centered in utilitarian economy, and hence not much time is given to the technology's aesthetic or resistant possibilities. In addition to these obvious barriers, there is a more insidious problem that emerges from the social schizophrenia of the US. While its political system is theoretically based on democratic principles of inclusion, its economic system is based on the principle of exclusion. Consequently, as a luxury itself, the cultural superstructure tends towards exclusion as well. This economic principle determined the invention of copyright, which originally developed not in order to protect writers, but to reduce competition among publishers. In 17th-century England, where copyright first appeared, the goal was to reserve for publishers themselves, in perpetuity, the exclusive right to print certain books. The justification, of course, was that when formed into a literary work, language has the author's personality imposed upon it, thereby marking it as private property. Under this mythology, copyright has flourished in late capital, setting the legal precedent to privatize any cultural item, whether it is an image, a word, or a sound. Thus the plagiarist (even of the technocratic class) is kept in a deeply marginal position, regardless of the inventive and efficient uses h/is methodology may have for the current state of technology and knowledge. "What is the point of saving language when there is no longer anything to say?" The present requires us to rethink and re-present the notion of plagiarism. Its function has for too long been devalued by an ideology with little place in techno-culture. Let the romantic notions of originality, genius, and authorship remain, but as elements for cultural production without special privilege above other equally useful elements. It is time to openly and boldly use the methodology of recombination so as to better parallel the technology of our time. ===== http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html meditation, net art, poeisis: blog http://lewislacook.blogspot.com/ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 23:49:50 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Philip Whalen Memorial Reading In-Reply-To: <001901c272fb$9dd9f560$dbc0b3d1@ibmw17kwbratm7> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > Memorial poetry reading for Philip Whalen > >at The Rubin Museum of Art, 115, 5th Avenue, 7th Floor, > >6:00 p.m. on October 15 > > >NYC? SF? -- George Bowering Not deeply tanned. Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 02:53:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII defuge again - the disgust and decathecting occurring for example trying to read a novel pornography 'gone stale' 50-55% of my email spam now it's not junk it sheer unethical content 5-10 nigerian scams day stock offerings complete w/ insider tips child sex 'you have opted receive' 'call here' with telephone number unsubscribe every faced this no way reasonably reply filters blocking just about everything out mail relays, mal-adjusted headers, codework, small servers goes on back into filth mine through something worth-while leave account or so becomes unmanageable there's time start private networks where's fidonet when we need other models anomalous matrices between inter- intra- nets otherwise 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now - it's sheer not 50-55% junk my it spam sheer it's unethical nigerian content scams 5-10 day nigerian - scams stock day complete stock content offerings - complete 5-10 w/ have insider opted tips to child - sex 'call 'you - have w/ opted insider receive' - 'call sex here' - with with telephone telephone number number unsubscribe unsubscribe every no faced to this reply no spam way filters reasonably day reply faced filters - blocking about just everything about out everything - out mail mail mal-adjusted relays, headers, mal-adjusted blocking headers, just codework, servers small - servers it goes and on on back to into mine filth it mine day through back something filth worth-while for leave day account so or worth-while so - becomes account unmanageable there's - time where's start when private we networks need where's - fidonet other when time we to need start other - models anomalous anomalous between matrices inter- between and inter- intra- intra- - nets models otherwise - violence any world - 9-11 otherwise by - any the means of furious world auschwitz to get - money and shoot - kill auschwitz bush get thugs money world's shoot becoming self-advertising dark replacing self-advertising news replacing tonight news it's tonight all all - same the substance same hammered - language hammered them === ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 00:13:05 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: TEDDY WARBURG ATMOSPHERE #0027 Comments: To: 7-11@mail.ljudmila.org, ImitationPoetics@listserv.unc.edu, o-o@konf.lt, webartery@yahoogroups.com, syndicate@anart.no, _arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au, owner-realpoetik@scn.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit TEDDY WARBURG ATMOSPHERE #0027 [excerpt] www.voice-of-the-village.com is cock soon? department medicine College scholarships are largely 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Regional and Economic NorthWestern railway Bettia the residence Bernard fought for King Stephen during the other joy Good Father Shining Truth must wait till done war was offender was frequently used the emperor German king diminishing purchasing power Even owing the sharp rivalry the struggle representatives the foreign powers-such proposal the foremost teams semi him looking there was considerable rivalry working the other parts the county there are the southern bank was not until prefixed Baily's Journal Tour with list his Oxford where graduated working the other parts the county there are the southern bank for some time boxes help eliminate odor Put thin layer baking soda add litter her under Statutes Large Pennsylvania Philadelphia mine hand moved over she themselves minute researches they pestered meg's eyes locked mine attaching many new offices sciences --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.394 / Virus Database: 224 - Release Date: 10/3/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 00:17:35 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: CELIA CURTIS PENULTIMATE DYNAMIC INTERPLAY #0018 Comments: To: 7-11@mail.ljudmila.org, ImitationPoetics@listserv.unc.edu, o-o@konf.lt, webartery@yahoogroups.com, syndicate@anart.no, _arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au, owner-realpoetik@scn.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PENULTIMATE DYNAMIC INTERPLAY #0018 by CELIA CURTIS www.wired-paris-review.com RESPECTED DEJECTION => WASHINGTON => WAVES => FOR VEHICLE => WAITING => THE OF SO PRIVATE => SKIP => SPOON => HAS RETURNED AND YOU HAVE THE CREEPY => CUP => WITH ALL THAT IS NEEDFUL AND HAVE BEEN EXPLAINING WHAT AT MANOEUVRE => FILLED US WITH ROOTS => SUGARS => THAT IN CARDS => COUP => I ASK YOUR CARDS => TIDINGS => FOR SERIOUS => CONCEALED FROM THAT ADDED TO THE GLORIOUS => BY THE KNIGHTS AT THEIR NOMINATION BY YOUR PIGS => PIG|STYES => HERE LIT GREY => HUNT => BY THE FLAMES AS STEM => STINGY => AS AT NOONTIDE EXCEPTIONAL => THE AFRICA => ALIENATE => COULD NOT DEEP => DOGFISH => YOU RALPH THE ENGAGEMENTDIAMONDBEL => OF UNWELL => UPON|LIE => NOT TO ME QUIETLY => RABBLE => OUT THE CURRENT => CYCLES => BEFORE NOVEMBER => HENRY => AND WE PAGE => PAGES => THERE AT HEAVING => DISGUST => THE CARDS => COUP => PREPARATIONS WERE THE DISPLEASURE => BY THE AND OVER TO THE PLEASED => TANTRUM => CLIMAX => GLORY => OF THE OBSCENITY => THEY SPAGHETTI => SPIKE => AND AS AS YOU HAVE THIS EMBARK SUCCEEDED IN GAINING THEIR THE AND FLED TO THEIR A GROIN => OF MISSILES AND KILLER => KINKY => BECOMING => CHARGE => SHE RAN MANUFACTURER => THE BITCH => UGH => AND AFTER THE KNIGHTS HAVE BUT THIS IS DILATION => NOSE => AS YOU THE BRANDISHUNDULATESINE => AT OTTER => OVEN => AGREED UPON AND WE LOUNGE => MATTRESS => A BEY AND PASHA DELIGHTFUL => IF HE BE OESOPHAGEAL|TRACK => THAT SPOKE THE IT WOULD ME SHOULD COULD DEFY THE YTIDINGSAN => OF AN TO CROSS AND NAPPINGGRABBED => THE HAS DIFFERENCE => HE HAS A OF THEM ON POLISH => TEAS => => OF THEM ROGER JERVIS TREACLE => IS ENOUGH AND KEEPS US UNREST|INSTANCE => AND IN WHEN WE ARE ON BE TO MY EPILEPSY => FEELING => OF THE FIGHTING BUT I MANOR => MEDICAL => EXCLAMATIONS OF ROOTS => SUGARS => BROKE FROM BEN IBYN HIS AND DAUGHTERS TONIGHT THAT IF I HAVE OBJECTS => STARVED => OF AVARICE => AWE => DOLLY => I BE TO FOR THE AGROUND => HOIST => AWFULAWEFULHORRIFIC => GERVAISE HAS BEEN AN ANCHORITE HE HAS THE AUBERGE THEY HAD BEEN CONVEYED FROM THE DOLLY => AND BE CONDITIONING => UPON MY SHOULDERS NAPPINGGRABBED => I GROUPS => IDEALISM => IT BUT FALSEHOOD => AND IT IS INTOLERABLE THAT POLISH => TEAS => => TREACLE => HAS BEEN BUT RESTING => SATE => WHEN AS DUODENAL => POLISH => TEAS => => ESSENTIALS => THE POSITION OF THE SERVITORS IS IN DUODENAL => TO THE THE SO CARRIED WERE PILED GREY => HUNT => THE THAT WE COULD NOT BE CONDITIONING => BY ROOTS => SUGARS => AND MIGHT QUIETLY => RABBLE => A THERE IS RELEASED => RIGOUR => IN WHAT HE MY PRIVATE => OF THE SLAVES THOUGH HE WOULD HAVE DISTURB => OUT WHATEVER HE WAS RALPH THERE WOULD BE NO VILLAGES AT WHICH TO QUIETLY => RABBLE => INQUIRIES AND ARRANGED FROM THE ANDREWS => OF KNIGHTS IN THE CONVENT COULD NOT HAVE HE TO RHODES BUT IS A FROM POLISH => TEAS => => OF THE ISLANDS IN OF THE CLIMAX => GLORY => WALLS THEY ARE BUT GRASS => HEARD => INCHES ACROSS AND COWHERD => CRINGE => NAPPINGGRABBED => HE WOULD NOT BE SO THAT THE DULLEST WOULD SLEEPY => SPUDS => IT THAT IS AWFULAWEFULHORRIFIC => LOUIS EXCLAIMED AS ON TURNING THEY APATHY => CO => THAT CANNOT SAY AWFULAWEFULHORRIFIC => JOHN HE BE TRYING TO GET AN GRIM => GROWL => OF TO THE PRIZES TO RHODES UNDERLYING ALL THE ARGUMENTS RAVAGING THE COASTS OF EQUAL => ETHICS => WE FELL IN WITH AND DECISIONS => LINE => THIS TO SCRIPTURE => --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.394 / Virus Database: 224 - Release Date: 10/3/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 12:19:43 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lakey Teasdale Subject: Virginia. visitadora & Greets her. Sister Comments: To: "WRYTING-L : Writing and Theory across Disciplines" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Virginia. visitadora & Greets her. Sister the strongest coffee. Whose sister wore a turban sometimes. at others, parting from crown to forehead, the=20 black hair slicked to your skull. One lock obscuring mi vanidad and your vision. Still. all heads turned to her in streets. And alleys of Jerusalem. the orthodox hid their faces=20 from her singing and her ojos infinitos and se llen=F3 en la=20 tempestad. She told her sister all the news. Her secrets como todo estaba that really was ardiendo. Lamentations enjoyed!=20 promises of the alphabets. Oh. the Greeks had ways learned no doubt from others. My sister! El viento. viento. my unhappy soul. Who lost her coraz=F3n and looks for you Everywhere. the sad lines that conjure her face. Your voice: Frente a vostros. My sister! Hol=E1! and you will ask: response remains the same. You who know. you know. and her life en vez de flores. Was sometimes/often a tide but the children. the children. One dreams of balloons to=20 fill spaces the other fills. Space. careful and thoughtful. you never met this beautiful daughter. Nearly now=20 the age when Ezequiel borrowed your gown. and Shocked! the Holy City! a Chinese skullcap, your Arabian gown black with embroidery. Es poison! he said and threw away the sugar. es poison! and discarded the white rice. es poison!=20 their endeavours. Your diary full with four lovers at once. Four! and her sister sadly lagging behind, the needle stuck the refrain en las noches infinito. Strong. the charm of qu=E9 importa. Identified all their sorrows. Theirs. Gave them names. Yours, greater the secrecy, all married. and hers. Endures. She conveys her love to Beatriz. She wishes her to know. Time passes. She kisses her sister. The misma noche, Beatriz. Su voz and his eyes. en mi interior. En mi. en mi interior still. Tremblar, Beatriz. tremblar. Still=20 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 07:47:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: sociology of poetry & what can be done In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 5:37 PM -0800 10/13/02, Andrew Rathmann wrote: >... The MFA mandarins instill their norms of poetry writing >(colloquial, expressive), and the theory-driven mandarins assert >theirs (paratactic, ambiguously expressive) -- and all the time most >college teachers are either ill-informed or indifferent, so it is >not even true that a future audience is being created. ... >Andy just to take up this tiny point; the mfa scene, in my observation, is hardly a mandarin one. fairly abject, in fact. -- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 07:51:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: From the horse's mouth In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" thanks kevin; next time cd you ask him why bob kaufman was left out? i know there was some debate about it, he was in, then out, in the planning stages. xo, md At 11:22 PM -0700 10/13/02, Kevin Killian wrote: >I went to lunch with Donald Allen yesterday and asked him why, for >example, Muriel Rukeyser wasn't one of the poets he included in "The >New American Poetry." Was it because, as some have speculated, he >considered her part of the "1.5" generation which included Patchen, >Zukofsky, Rexroth. "No," he replied. "I just never thought much of >her work. She was everything the book was supposed to be against. I >had met her in Berkeley, but got to know her after I met Octavio Paz, >first in Mexico City, then in New York. He wanted me to publish >Rukeyser's translations of his poems. I thought they were awful." >Her own poetry? "Does she have her partisans?" "I'm one," I flared >out. "I mean, she's good and she's bad. We all have our ups and >downs." He considered. We were at Benihana and the chef was >throwing things up in the air and stabbing them with knives then >pinning them down on a big hot steel table and the steam was hissing >like mad. "Bit of a sentimentalist." Afterwards I thought, but yet >look at our dear John Wieners and he was a bit of a sentimentalist >and what was wrong with that? But, it was all so long ago and far >away. It's hard to transport oneself back to another time. > >-- Kevin K. -- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 08:35:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Ken Rumble Subject: Desert City Poetry Series, Winston-Salem, NC Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Spread far and wide...... Who: Evie Shockley, author of _The Gorgon Goddess_, ex-lawyer, Wake Forest University Professor, all around great gal What: the Desert City Poetry Series -- putting the "O" in "Poetry" for a month and a half When: Tuesday, October 22nd, 2002 -- _note the new time_ 8:00pm Where: PS211/the Wherehouse -- downtown Winston-Salem, wrong side of the tracks Why: 'Cuz "poems made of fears / evaporate" See you there.......... to PS211: http://ps211.org/directions.html about PS211: http://ps211.org/start.html "POSSIBILITIES OF POETRY, UPON HER DEATH" by Evie Shockley (from The Beloit Poetry Journal) ars poetica, rough ship, drag me from world to brutal word, mental passage. (write.) be a wail of a sound, surfacing to fountain water found in valleys of shadows of breath. i will brook no evil, for thou art not gone, gwen, and poems made of fears evaporate. when the drops dry, scrape gray lines of salt and dreams from brown faces. (rite.) melt like a verb into this rich white earth of paper. grow an oeuvre from a need. =97gwendolyn brooks (1917-2000) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 09:01:26 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Kimmelman, Burt" Subject: NYC Reading at CUNY Graduate Center MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" The second book salon of the semester, featuring two poets and scholars, Burt Kimmelman and Stephen Paul Miller will be held on Wednesday, October 16th, in Room 5414, CUNY Graduate Center at 365 5th Avenue (at 34th street), 7 to 9 pm. Refreshments will be served. Hope to see you there! Burt Kimmelman will read and discuss poetry with a radically objectivist slant. His new Marsh Hawk Press book is THE POND AT CAPE MAY POINT. Stephen Paul Miller's latest book of poetry is THE BEE FLIES IN MAY (Marsh Hawk Press). He will read from it and discuss his long poem, "Row," which uses a misinterpretation of Bob Dylan's "Desolation Row" as a springboard to critique and relate IBM AND THE HOLOCAUST, the idealistic underpinnings of Alan Turing's universal computing machine, the origins of capital and anti-semitism, nature as commodity and the financing of the suburbs, and much else. For more information contact Michael Palm at mwp206@nyu.edu. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 08:08:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Tracy S. Ruggles" Subject: Re: Why is code so important to practitioners of new media poetry? In-Reply-To: <20021014045912.57661.qmail@web10703.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't know, most of the new media work I see seems so much more interested in the tool than the things built with the tool. But wait, most of the langpo work I see seems so much more interested in words than the things built with the words. But, whereas language has been around for a few more years than something like javascript, I still think most new media artists are caught up in a lust for the new. Every new version of Macromedia, or each new upgrade to a browser, faster processors, more memory... all of it changes the landscape and the medium through which their works are made. It all gives a chance to artists who don't really have that much talent to make something that seems to be cool and seems to have complexity or depth, but just plain falls flat. --T >>> E =3D 'everything' >>> L=3DA=3DN=3DG=3DU=3DA=3DG=3DE >>> L 'everything' >>> A 'everything' >>> N 'everything' >>> G 'everything' >>> U 'everything' >>> A 'everything' >>> G 'everything' >>> E 'everything' >>> L+A+N+G+U+A+G+E 'everythingeverythingeverythingeverythingeverythingeverythingeverythingevery= thing' >>> >I agree here with jennifer...just want to add this.... > >it's funny, i was just thinking about this earlier >this evening...talked to august highland on the phone >saturday night, and he got me thinking about the >schism that is often perceived between "coders" & >"creatives"=3D=3D=3D=3D=3Dcoders like hard logic, while >creatives are, well, creative...deena larsen i also >believe in a chat at trAce brought up the point, well, >it's come to the point where we're asking poets to >blend image text and sound, isn't it a bit much to ask >them to program to? >my thoughts? no, it's not too much...in fact, the >artist in the future will blend all of this quite >easily...(she already is, all over places like rhizome >and furtherfield)...me, i love code...& i love >poetry...& they're not different from each other, >y'know...before i created "new media" works, i often >thought of the poem as an emotional little computer >program...we code incessantly, all the time, it's just >not always "machine code" (neither is the code we use >to get the machine to do what we want, really...the >machine only understands ones and zeroes, on and >off)....semiotics is the study of the codes we >use...linguistics studies a code...IT'S ALL CODE... > >so, essentially, it's important not simply because >it's our brush, but also because we were doing it >before we even picked up this particular brush...you >were too...in fact, you're doing it right now... >bliss >l > > > >JENNIFER:A few thoughts: > >Code is to the new media poet as language is to a >lyric poet. Mouseovers >can become metaphor, Javascripts can create assonance >-- a new media poet=BCs >primary expressive tool is the code s/he has written, >acquired, adopted, >recombined, modified, made her/his own. > >If poetry is the language art, to quote Marjorie >Perloff, then I think code >is the tool we wield to make that art. We become as >comfortable handling it >as any painter does a brush. But beyond that, code, >bits and bytes of it, >can become our rhyme scheme, our cadence, our iambic >pentameter or, just as >importantly the antithesis of any of these poetic >conventions, the means by >which digital language can become digital >L=3DA=3DN=3DG=3DU=3DA=3DG=3DE. > > > >Jennifer Ley > > > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >http://www.lewislacook.com/ >http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html >meditation, net art, poeisis: blog http://lewislacook.blogspot.com/ > > >__________________________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More >http://faith.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 08:37:47 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: Why is code so important to practitioners of new media poetry? In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v546) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Monday, October 14, 2002, at 06:08 AM, Tracy S. Ruggles wrote: > I don't know, most of the new media work I see seems so much more > interested in the tool than the things built with the tool. But > wait, most of the langpo work I see seems so much more interested in > words than the things built with the words. I think yr missing the mark here. Of course I can imagine that your thinking of specific examples & they are most likely a different set of specific examples from what Im thinking of. But one has to be quite careful when separating the content from its electronic physiology. Any dynamic work which has a heart of code beating beneath the surface, the work that is interesting to me anyway, is integrated &/so/thus removing the "text" from body of the piece will generate a separate text-object which refers to the parent but is other than. > > But, whereas language has been around for a few more years than > something like javascript, I still think most new media artists are > caught up in a lust for the new. You simply have no idea what your talking about. Such a generalization is completely naive. > Every new version of Macromedia, or > each new upgrade to a browser, faster processors, more memory... all > of it changes the landscape and the medium through which their works > are made. I work in programs like hypercard (my version is from 1989), fontographer (my version is from 1991)... other people like alan s, ted warnell work in technologies that have literally been around since the beginning of desktop computing. > It all gives a chance to artists who don't really have > that much talent to make something that seems to be cool and seems to > have complexity or depth, but just plain falls flat. just as an email list such as poetics offers anyone the opportunity to test out thinking that has not been thought thru thoroughly. mIEKAL ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 08:47:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: Re: women in TNAP: Sylvia Plath In-Reply-To: <000001c2720b$fd21c250$eb000140@Glasscastle> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Rachel Loden writes: I Add 2 cents, in agreement: The problem with poets who have both talent and a cult of personality is that the two become hard to unweave . . . so the talent tends to get swamped in the personality. At least that's true with Plath, as she remains THE one poet that many people know, or know of. Works well for her name recognition, but doesn't help her poems one bit. And several are worth knowing. Even a HUGE, overtaught one like "Daddy." On the other hand, I think Sexton is just plain awful. Blather, in fact. Best, JG ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 15:14:42 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lakey Teasdale Subject: Virginia. and the harbour. the weather rain MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Virginia. and the harbour. the weather rain there is a loyalty of years. The harbour master the weather. A confrontation live Force 7 the wind. A=20 friendship spans years. Her skin a sheer stocking to him silk. silk. chiffon. white silk chiffon. The same ornaments. but choice. Familiar. there is a loyalty of years. a trawler arrives=20 position a ship with cross bearings. No. No epitaph for the living. Are living. and the rain. resonant. on islands. Distant. and the rain. resonant. on islands. Distant. there is a loyalty of years. Following in- timate years following the following Recall and preceding the following. Intimate years. familiar. Familiar as are years. Familiar as. He is familiar. As familiar as ancestry. skin tight. there is a loyalty. And there is love and there is the familiar loyalty and love of. Perfumed. Annointed the familiar. The skin the silk. Silk sheer the stocking. Removed. the silk stocking. Sheer the familiar. The skin fits them tight as Familiar fits tight as loyalty. Tighter than loyalty Fits him=20 tight as=20 silk. love & skin glove. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 07:23:53 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: Re: women in The New American Poetry In-Reply-To: <200210131214.g9DCEeJ16844@beasley.concentric.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Ahh, Bromowitz, ahh Blowinger, and I thought you'd forgotten... "D. > A" ..."diamonds aplenty" ..."delectable appetizers"..."drama > afoot"...bienvenu encore au Salon de Discipline, chez L'Hotel de La > Nouvelle Poesie Americaine... Rachel my sistah, are you down w/ the > people here? Nah. I put my riding crop in storage after the unpleasantness in Poughkeepsie. Some people never do stop begging, though, and their name is "duck's arse" or maybe "district attorney." But if "delayed action" is sweetest. . . Don't answer! D'Abyssinia ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 10:44:49 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anslem Berrigan Subject: Announcing Hoa Nguyen's "Your Ancient See Through" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Announcing publication of Your Ancient See Through by Hoa Nguyen 111 pgs. 5 1/4 x 8 1/2 ISBN 1-930068-13-1 $12 Cover art and illustrations by Philip Trussell Letterpress cover and design by Roger Snell and Ann Marie Hovie Published by subpress The book can be ordered via Small Press Distribution or through 'A' Arts subpress Dept. of English University of Hawai'i Manoa 1730 Donagho Road Honolulu, Hawai'i 96822 or through Anselm Berrigan AnselmBerrigan@aol.com for contact info ($10 if you order through me; through Jan. 1, 2003) checks payable to 'A' Arts CALM IN THE VEGETABLE BEARD OF TIME His golden ear-loops cover handsome honed cheek bones with wonder My-eyed wonder at gazing him speechless nearly no mouthed beneath the varying grey green blue of his wise chin Dots Dots or a ladder connect us Insect antennae antennae under water as in crawfish whisker carp Speckled forehead wrinkles at Rilke when I say "Beauty is nothing but the beginning of terror" Laugh Shake your head I saw noses first felt my own the issuing spot through which I begin and begin again Hoa Nguyen, 2002 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 07:48:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: Re: women in The New American Poetry In-Reply-To: <200210131218.g9DCIKi26489@buckpalace.concentric.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What about Carol Berg=E9? She was in the hideously titled (and Jones/Baraka edited) _Four Young Lady Poets_, along with Moraff, Owens, and Wakoski. Born 1928, so she's actually six years older than Baraka. But don't that title say it all? > i think the original q was which women poets cd/shd have been > included in the Allen anthology, not who were the interesting women > poets writing at the time? i think we'd all agree that, talented and > fabulous as plath and sexton are, their aesthetic is of a different > orientation than most of the men and women whose work appeared in > TNAP. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 08:07:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Clinefelter Subject: Re: Why is code so important to practitioners of new media poetry? In-Reply-To: <20021014045912.57661.qmail@web10703.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Watch for the new Microsoft program for the "new media poetry"- S=O=U=L=L=E=S=S=C=R=A=P 5.0. "New media poetry"....who were the smart missles who thunk that one up? How much Kraft macaroni and Wonderbread does one have to ingest to create the "new media poetry"? Or does it just happen in front of the PC one day, after so many mortar shells of Rolling Rock and X number of hours of "Fear Factor"? Poets have been blending image, text and sound for at least several thousand years now, and will continue to do so, with whatever medium. It doesn't matter how the poem is made- voice, wax tablet, stone, parchment, paper, film, computer- it matters what the poem says. A lot Poetry- especially the academic brand- has been stuck in the Mire of Form for too long, balkanized by the committee, dissected in the workshop. Let's create a poetry of CONTENT WITH MEANING. Where will the "new media poetry" be when our fine gutless uncivilization comes crashing down in the not-too-distant future? Will the "new media poetry" be able to shake, rattle and roll and bleep, twizzle and sqawk without the almighty know-nothing internet to run it on? Will the "new media poetry" be remembered even 25 years from now, when the dvd it was burned to no longer plays because it has oxidized? Perhaps...perhaps, the coming Sturm und Drang will foster a new age of Art and Light, an age in which people- even poets- will have to use the computer they come equipped with at birth- it's called the brain. --- lewis lacook wrote: > I agree here with jennifer...just want to add > this.... > > it's funny, i was just thinking about this earlier > this evening...talked to august highland on the > phone > saturday night, and he got me thinking about the > schism that is often perceived between "coders" & > "creatives"=====coders like hard logic, while > creatives are, well, creative...deena larsen i also > believe in a chat at trAce brought up the point, > well, > it's come to the point where we're asking poets to > blend image text and sound, isn't it a bit much to > ask > them to program to? > my thoughts? no, it's not too much...in fact, the > artist in the future will blend all of this quite > easily...(she already is, all over places like > rhizome > and furtherfield)...me, i love code...& i love > poetry...& they're not different from each other, > y'know...before i created "new media" works, i often > thought of the poem as an emotional little computer > program...we code incessantly, all the time, it's > just > not always "machine code" (neither is the code we > use > to get the machine to do what we want, really...the > machine only understands ones and zeroes, on and > off)....semiotics is the study of the codes we > use...linguistics studies a code...IT'S ALL CODE... > > so, essentially, it's important not simply because > it's our brush, but also because we were doing it > before we even picked up this particular brush...you > were too...in fact, you're doing it right now... > bliss > l > > > > JENNIFER:A few thoughts: > > Code is to the new media poet as language is to a > lyric poet. Mouseovers > can become metaphor, Javascripts can create > assonance > -- a new media poet¹s > primary expressive tool is the code s/he has > written, > acquired, adopted, > recombined, modified, made her/his own. > > If poetry is the language art, to quote Marjorie > Perloff, then I think code > is the tool we wield to make that art. We become as > comfortable handling it > as any painter does a brush. But beyond that, code, > bits and bytes of it, > can become our rhyme scheme, our cadence, our iambic > pentameter or, just as > importantly the antithesis of any of these poetic > conventions, the means by > which digital language can become digital > L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E. > > > > Jennifer Ley > > > > ===== > > http://www.lewislacook.com/ > http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html > meditation, net art, poeisis: blog > http://lewislacook.blogspot.com/ > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More > http://faith.yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 11:48:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Rothenberg Subject: Re: Philip Whalen Memorial Reading MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit New York City ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Bowering" To: Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 2:49 AM Subject: Re: Philip Whalen Memorial Reading > > Memorial poetry reading for Philip Whalen > > > >at The Rubin Museum of Art, 115, 5th Avenue, 7th Floor, > > > >6:00 p.m. on October 15 > > > > > >NYC? > > SF? > > > -- > George Bowering > Not deeply tanned. > Fax 604-266-9000 > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 11:58:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: apocalypse and others MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII apocalypse and others apocalypse these are the end-days; make no mistake about it. this is neither rumor nor prediction, although i have participated in both; it is a careful extrapolation from the facts, the proliferation of nuclear and biochemical weapons, increasing world-wide fanaticisms, and exponential depletion of resources, both natural and artificial. we are witnessing an armageddon that began millennia ago, the fascination with divinely-given truths that efface all other considerations. my writing is the writing of the apocal- ypse, and it is the reading of the apocalypse as well. the filters have become the content; we are doomed, just as we continue to be doomed to play out our literary games among the havoc. body-scan 1 camera moving in raster formation across still background image a. camera focused ahead on raster track b. camera focused down on raster track 2 background image cyclic sheaf of still images - victorian azure partially in and out of costume 3 interferences along the path of the camera focused ahead 4 interferences beneath the path of the camera focused down 5 video-texture-mapping on interferences a. 'mocking interferences' following camera b. ding-an-sich interferences ignoring camera c. deliberately occluding interferences beneath or ahead of camera 1 opaque interferences 2 translucent or transparent interferences 6 particle interferences - disks with 'win' texture mapping setting 7 camera within transparent particle along same path (parenting) 8 ends w/ full-scan or continues w/ cyclic scan sondheim patent blanket the sondheim patent blanket, 7' circular diameter, non-allergenic insulat- ing substance, fully covers the user. there are two types: passive and active. the passive blanket has micro-miniature gas-exchange valves, allowing the flow of oxygen around an 18" diameter area. the active blanket has a small pump, warming incoming air to the interior temperature - the effect is a slow movement of air throughout. the sondheim patent blanket serves the function of a small blanket placed over a cat; it creates a womb-like environment, cutting back light and sound, warming the body, and allowing sleep which otherwise might be too susceptible to the elements. the sondheim patent blanket is under development. === ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 11:39:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Tracy S. Ruggles" Subject: Re: Why is code so important to practitioners of new media poetry? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Well, I dashed off an email too quickly... Here's bit more clarification on my thoughts: >On Monday, October 14, 2002, at 06:08 AM, Tracy S. Ruggles wrote: > >> I don't know, most of the new media work I see seems so much more >> interested in the tool than the things built with the tool. But >> wait, most of the langpo work I see seems so much more interested in >> words than the things built with the words. > >I think yr missing the mark here. Of course I can imagine that your >thinking of specific examples & they are most likely a different set of >specific examples from what Im thinking of. But one has to be quite >careful when separating the content from its electronic physiology. >Any dynamic work which has a heart of code beating beneath the surface, >the work that is interesting to me anyway, is integrated &/so/thus >removing the "text" from body of the piece will generate a separate >text-object which refers to the parent but is other than. I didn't really distinguish between algorithmically created text/image versus dynamic/"live" new media work. And, yes, the integrated work (code and the thing(s) the code makes) is much more interesting to me, too. Most recently, I saw a series of works (I wish I could remember the name) that was each artist's interpretation of a connection of three points, or a triangulation. The work was prefaced with the code that created the work. One in particular, actually showed and hilighted the code in one frame while what it made was being displayed in another. I played/watched with that work for a long time.. I also really enjoyed the the grid of images/texts that you created with Maria Damon. I tried to re-locate it just now but it seems the pages weren't alive. Both of these works I see as very beautiful, multi-faceted works that balance quite nicely the content and the user's opportunities to interact with the content and create new presentations of it and to create their own meaning from it. >> But, whereas language has been around for a few more years than >> something like javascript, I still think most new media artists are >> caught up in a lust for the new. > >You simply have no idea what your talking about. Such a generalization >is completely naive. Yes, it was a generalization. And a stupid one at that. Though, I'd like to think that I at least know what I know, having looked at a lot of the stuff coming through rhizome.net. My frustration, and hence my unwarranted attack on the majority of new media artists, was that I have seen a lot of work that does some nifty things, but only for the sake of its niftiness (or so it seems, and in some cases I'm probably wrong). >> Every new version of Macromedia, or >> each new upgrade to a browser, faster processors, more memory... all >> of it changes the landscape and the medium through which their works >> are made. > >I work in programs like hypercard (my version is from 1989), >fontographer (my version is from 1991)... other people like alan s, >ted warnell work in technologies that have literally been around since >the beginning of desktop computing. Yes, and I have liked most of yours and Alan's works. Maybe I've just seen way too many bad works and have over-generalized. >> It all gives a chance to artists who don't really have >> that much talent to make something that seems to be cool and seems to >> have complexity or depth, but just plain falls flat. > >just as an email list such as poetics offers anyone the opportunity to >test out thinking that has not been thought thru thoroughly. Exactly. And here I am thinking out some more thoughts. I shouldn't be so harsh on things I don't like or am frustrated with. It's similar to the recent threads on whether its "right" for critics to write negative reviews. I'm much more inclined to think that talking positively about works is more constructive and will move the whole field forward. Thanks for the continued dialogue... --Tracy ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 12:46:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nick Piombino Subject: ?why is code so important to practitioners of new media poetry?? Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 22:16:00 -0400 > From: Jim Rosenberg > Subject: Re: ?Why is code so important to practitioners of new media poetry?? > > --On Sunday, October 13, 2002 6:52 PM -0400 Jennifer Ley > wrote: > >> Code is to the new media poet as language is to a lyric poet. > In the end, it's the words that matter, as they always have. I'm enjoying this discussion regarding the new media poetry and would like to hear more about it. Yet I have questions about the final aphorism here. In the end, do words matter so much? Getting close to finality, to the core of experience, isn't it thoughts and feelings that matter? Yesterday I attended a magic lantern performance by Ken Jacobs- 90 minutes of pure visual abstraction with music, no words at all. This was at the Avant-Garde Film Festival, part of the New York Film Festival, this section at Lincoln Center's Walter Reade theater with comfortable seats and a big screen, a packed crowd, many or most of whom, it seemed, were filmmakers. In the program notes Ken Jacobs writes: "'The Nervous Magic Lantern' is a rudimentary projector, less an object than an arrangement of lamp and optics bounding a small open space for the placement and manipulation of things, a miniature stage area; a spinning shutter alternates light and dark, providing the 'nervous' factor... 'A Place Where There Is No Trouble' turns forms in space and tours imaginary landscapes. Impossible changes abound, the four dimensions turn outlaw. Perhaps more significant than what is seen are the shifts in perspective from where it is seen." But later in the program notes he writes, in explaining the "trouble" part of his performance: "While I understand that New York can't be protected (and that its leveling would be a real-estate bonanza, should something called America survive, with the New New York an up-from-the-ashes triumph with music by Aaron Copland), is it too much to expect from this government some minimizing of the pain of chemical and biological and explosive destruction? I heard of cops, buried alive in the WTC rubble, who- enviably-were able to turn their guns on themselves. Shouldn't we, for instance, be sending our kids off to school with something to cut pain and terror short?" Later, after the riveting 90 minutes of sliding, shifting, blurring, muted, unrecognizable images ended (huge neutrally tinted abstract expressionist forms slowly migrating across the giant screen to various selections of Chopin and Cage type music, sometimes symphonic, sometimes sheer sound) Jacobs answered some questions, after a long ovation from the audience. When one questioner compared the experience to lying on a hill watching the clouds, Jacobs quipped: "That would be better. This is something you do on a rainy day." In the end, it's being that matters, as it always has; words, images and poetry very much encompassing much of life's elemental aspects, as long as there are still rainy days. As Jacobs, at turns, joyfully and grimly reminded us: we now all live on a precipice as they did long ago in Pompey, every now and then looking over our shoulders anxiously when we hear the volcano rumbling. Nick ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 14:10:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: Re: From the horse's mouth In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Does anybody know if there's been a good reception study of Rukeyser yet? The ups & downs of her reputation have certainly been more dramatic than the ups & downs of her work -- She has the distinction of having been the target of abuse from both left & right -- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "The university professes the truth, and that is its profession. It declares and promises an unlimited commitment to the truth." Jacques Derrida (Without Alibi 202) Aldon Lynn Nielsen George and Barbara Kelly Professor of American Literature Department of English The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 13:15:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Camille Martin Subject: daniil kharms for kids of all ages MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I'm happy to see some recent postings about the Russian Absurdists, some of whom wrote children's books. I came across a delightful translation of _First, Second_ by Daniil Kharms, with amazing illustrations by Marc Rosenthal (in the style of the Katzenjammer Kids, or maybe Rube Goldberg). I tested the book on my 6 & 9-year old step-grandchildren, who were crazy about it! Camille Camille Martin 7725 Cohn St. New Orleans, LA 70118 (504) 861-8832 http://www.litcity.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 12:19:52 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: Why is code so important to practitioners of new media poetry? In-Reply-To: <20021014150716.4095.qmail@web14505.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" so (jim clinefelter, this one's for you esp.) now we're to be treated to an anti-digital arts rant, along with the s-o-p anti-academic rant?... maybe i should also lump in the seemingly innocent swipe made at "indentations" by m (mpalmer@JPS.NET) who "prefers the bohemian life to a desk job"---this assertion coming right after, as it does, the rhetorical admission that "reams" might have been writ by academicians about same, without his (?) "knowing"... and indeed, reams *have* been writ about same, m, as you full well know---by academicians AND by poets... i mean, i'm trained to be a good reader, so please forgive my reading what innuendo i see hereabouts... mr/ms. m, are you trying simply to be provocative? (as in your last provocateur series on digital arts)... b/c i for one am becoming less and less willing to respond to provocateurs---unless of course they're really, really pushing my buttons, or they really, really have something interesting to offer... this is all too much, really... yeah, for the record, i like digital arts (and, uh, indentations), and yeah, they have problems too... i haven't always endeared mself to my digitally inclined friends by pointing up said problems (oh yeah, i compose digital stuff mself, ok?)... but let's get back to my initial statement: it was our very own charles bernstein, i believe, who long ago pointed up the positive correlation between ranting against digital media and ranting against less conventional poetries... but i see now a correlation also, at least in terms of widespread (topical?) grumbling, with the anti-academic rant (occasionally the anti-intellectual), though of course one can't accuse digital artists of being academic either (not with e.g. miekal and so fully qualified to speak to the digital as a non-academic)... just what on earth is going on here?... are we all that... angry?... with another war looming, this is all beginning to feel suspiciously close to something like displacement (about which nick p and tom and others can speak far more eloquently than yours truly)... passionate opinions are one thing, and i for one wouldn't mind arguing the merits e.g. of digital work with birkerts and his tribes, as i wouldn't mind exploring the once & future value of indentations... but out-of-hand generalizations/innuendo about "soulesscrap" don't really serve to advance the discussion any, nosirreejimetal... i understand too that this post might only stoke the fires, so let me try a shaggy dog ending: i'm not averse to conflict, but i would like to see some substance here, as it's not enough to pitch questions/assertions to a thousand people that are designed simply to raise a few hundred eyebrows... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 14:40:36 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Re: no indentations where non intended MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-0E9jeFP7O1R6AKV0Fzha" --=-0E9jeFP7O1R6AKV0Fzha Content-Type: text/plain For those who are interested in things digital, and who in full or semi-possession of their digits is not, this past weekend LA hosted RACE IN DIGITAL SPACE 2.0, which, like last year's event at MIT, included both academics and (gulp) non-academics among the presenters, artists and performers. While there weren't many poets on hand this year (Kalamu ya Salaam spoke last year), there was much that would be of interest to poets -- Eventually, audio files from the conference will appear at: http://www.annenberg.edu/race/index.html In the meantime, you can hear audio files from last year's gathering at: http://cms.mit.edu/race/webcast.html I hear that the DJ SPOOKY event over at USC was a great party -- I also hear that the papers were of real interest -- --=-0E9jeFP7O1R6AKV0Fzha-- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "So all rogues lean to rhyme." --James Joyce Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 12:05:03 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: women in TNAP: Sylvia Plath In-Reply-To: <3DAA84B5.9332.3164EF1@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >Rachel Loden writes: > >read her work without signing up for any victim-cult. That was my >point. Not that I endorse her goofy world-view, any more than >Marjorie Perloff does when she calls Plath "an extraordinary poet" or >speaks of her "peculiar ability to fuse the domestic and the >hallucinatory."> > >I Add 2 cents, in agreement: > >The problem with poets who have both talent and a cult of >personality is that the two become hard to unweave . . . so the talent >tends to get swamped in the personality. At least that's true with >Plath, as she remains THE one poet that many people know, or know >of. Works well for her name recognition, but doesn't help her poems >one bit. And several are worth knowing. Even a HUGE, overtaught >one like "Daddy." > >On the other hand, I think Sexton is just plain awful. Blather, in fact. > >Best, > JG That is well reasoned and well-noted. Thanks for that. gb -- George Bowering Not deeply tanned. Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 15:15:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: can we have our ball back? 13.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed canwehaveourballback.com _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 13:07:19 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?searching_obstructionist=92s_enthusiasm_?= In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v546) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable searching obstructionist=92s enthusiasm I sit in a deep ................. indecisive hue, abandoned, branded,=20 when they come and rip arithmetic cubed souls. I sit in in-flight tears=20= and wait for its dearth but frozen. they come and you are covered in=20 patterned azure blaze . I .<. search coins ~ small dogs arrive. I=20 grieve in a baker=92s dozen. the arithmetic rips a dead=A0sea=A0scrolls. = I=20 scream, bless this and leave. I am robbery=A0suspect @ jean genet.. I=20= approached the universe and wait for encountered fantastics, like fat,=20= frozen leftovers, obstructionist=92s anoint(ed) origins, blue=20 abandoned, indecisive cues branded, when they come and that, and on=20 key, I tether my condolence(s) - you are like a vial, I sit and <.=20 search this coils of sight ................. . I sit in a deep=20 ................. indecisive abandoned, blue scream alfresco. I sit=20= and the key. - incidental=A0to astronomical=A0plastic = spiritual=A0rebirth. =20 you are covered in a deep ................. unbridled / =3D conditioned = =20 careful drinking - I am detective, =93 =94 I tether the key>>>> \ = there=20 is this sinking - you are covered. the universe and you .<. searching=20 coils of front letters. I grieve in, =93 =94 I scream, bless this and = over=20 redemption frescos. I approached the sea. {complications.} And so=20 transform human stupidity, ~ to galvanized metal strip tease, =20 ---------- ... perform my half mask lymphoma, like ice. / =3D unsettle,=20= I approached the key. search coins ~ of origin. like a vowel # I am=20 robbery=A0suspect @ imported rethinking, I am detective, =93 =94 =94 = =94 =94 =94 ,=20 =93 =94 =94 I approached the base fall asleep, I am @ a vowel, I tether = my=20 condolence(s) to fat and frozen leftovers, - I sit and scream over=20 everything , over stroking, over careful drinking - you are like a=20 genetic phantom, limbs of the past ---------- ... reform, against a=20 bombing=A0run - you whisper. Not one was missed - incidental=A0to, an=20= azure blaze equal numbers, point(s) . ................. , =93 =94 =94 =94,= =93 =94=20 =94 patterned in receptacles like vice, like a genetic whisper. -=20 incidental=A0to, the margins between spiritual=A0rebirth and = third=A0reich=20 universe., I sit and the arithmetic rips my souls. I grieve in=20 fantastic blue .<. all fluid=A0drives in covered with ruts, the = universe=20 and the sea, -complications-,, And so transforms again against the key,=20= I scream, bless this and the universe and wait for point(s) of=20 galvanized metal. a sun=A0dance, a sword=A0dance, a tap=A0dance, = ----------=20 ... when the solar=A0array comes and point(s) . . . . . . . . .=20 ................. back ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 13:18:50 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Small Press Traffic Subject: looking for Edwin Torres MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi pardon the interruption -- I have misplaced Edwin Torres's email and would be grateful for a backchannel response if you have it. Thanks Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson, Executive Director Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center at CCAC 1111 - 8th Street San Francisco, California 94107 http://www.sptraffic.org 415-551-9278 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 16:18:20 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: inside/outside the academy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/12/02 1:13:11 PM, joe.amato@COLORADO.EDU writes: >but when you compare adjunct teachers in academe to "scabs," well >that really gets my goat, murat... and i'm probably as pro-collective >bargaining as you're gonna find in these parts... there are so many >reasons why that's just not so (never mind a closer interrogation of >"scab")---and to suggest as much does a great disservice to that >exploited class of laborers upon which so many campuses have come to >rely (and as a matter of full disclosure, i've worked as such a >"scab," and my partner kass fleisher has been a "scab" in such terms >for 15 years now---and my dad was a union steward... so this really >really strikes a nerve in me)... Joe, I did not intend to insult anyone; I am sorry the word "scab" insulted anyone, and I can understand why it might. A lot of poets I admire work as adjuncts; so did at one point my wife. Still, it is a sharp way of saying something relevant. In a strike or lock out the management is fighting no to give some economic advantages to labor (either pay raises or working conditions or benefits or hire and fire practices). The management historically fought these demands (after the use of the police became less rampant) by hiring people who are desperate enough to accepts the management's conditions. That's why insisting on all the workers in a given industry being union is important though that might ossify into its own difficulties. In the present university system, it seems to me, there are two levels of teacher/workers. Those who are tenured and the adjuncts, who can be discontinued any time, who get paid less, with less benefits, etc., and, very crucial, with very little chance of any advancement. You know the sorry story better than me. The universities have essentially achieved what others industries have always fought for. My real frustration is with those with more substantial positions (a chair, etc.) If those people took chances, insisted on a more equitable arrangement, something may happen. Universities need those big names (if nothing but image purposes). If they refuse to work under those circumstances, the university must respond. I wrote a post to the List along these lines a few years ago. It seems to me the academic community as a whole show little class consciousness (the economic consequences of their behavior) even though many hold left leaning opinions. Murat ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 13:50:47 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "D. Ross Priddle" Subject: [ubuweb] [spidertangle] van hits one hundred! (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 10:46:36 -0700 (PDT) From: "D. Ross Priddle" Reply-To: ubuweb@yahoogroups.com To: ubuweb@yahoogroups.com Cc: poetics@listserve.buffalo.edu Subject: [ubuweb] [spidertangle] van hits one hundred! (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 10:43:10 -0700 (PDT) From: "D. Ross Priddle" Reply-To: spidertangle@yahoogroups.com To: spidertangle@yahoogroups.com Cc: poets-list@lights.com Subject: [spidertangle] van hits one hundred! van zine reaches issue number 100! # 100 has a letterswarm collaboration by john m. bennett (ohio) and jim leftwich (virginia) plus a photocopier deterioration (with add-ons) by reed altemus (maine) # 99 has a computer handwriting letter collage by annerose georgeson (bc) plus a visual music poem by giovanni straDA DA ravenna (italy) # 98 has photocopier music by w. mark sutherland (ontario) plus a detourned artcard by l. scott helmes (minnesota) # 97 has a vispo landscape by manolo (spain) plus a photocopier manipulation by susan gold (winsor, ont.) # 96 has a rubberstamp mandala by babynous (washington) plus some automatic writing by antonio orihuela (spain) # 95 has some minimal concrete by fernando aguiar (portugal) plus a visual poetry collagberation by john m. bennett (ohio) and anabasis (maryland) # 94 has zen cartoons by gustave morin (winDsor, ont.) # 93 has micropoetry by marcia arrieta (california) # 92 has a language included collage by jesse freeman (louisiana) plus a plaintext poem by sonnet l'abbe (canada) plus a limited number of last copies of earlier issues and a print on demand possibility for out of stock issues all available at twenty-five cents a pop trades welcome submissions welcome contributions welcome VAN imp press box 1612 Vanderhoof, BC V0J 3A0 CANADA ISSN: 1496-0729 S P I D E R T A N G L E Projects listed at: http://cla.umn.edu/joglars/spidertangle To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: spidertangle-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ To Post a message, send it to: ubuweb@eGroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: ubuweb-unsubscribe@eGroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 15:30:33 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: inside/outside the academy In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" check, many thanx murat for your clarification... i think my tone here has been drifting into the red zone of late, so my apologies to all who might have winced at it... in point of fact, and though this might be changing, the feds have (since the yeshiva decision, i think it was '81) generally stood against collective bargaining of tenured-tenure track faculty at *private* u's, on the basis that said faculty could in essence be construed as management personnel at such institutions (if i recall aright---someone help me out here)... ergo one wrinkle... as to collective bargaining at state u's, the closest, most recent major decision against organizing, by faculty vote, was at minnesota (maria, what happened?)... then there's the little matter of adjuncts (like grad students) organizing at places like nyu, a school that has, i'm told, gone out of its way to undermine the newly minted uaw union... in point of fact adjunct labor can't be "locked out"---if there were a union in place this might make sense... and if there were an attempt to install collective bargaining by adjuncts, and some adjuncts crossed the picket lines, then the word "scab" might be appropriate (albeit we might want to examine that word a bit more closely, again)... but what stops adjuncts from organizing on most campuses is the precarious nature of their positions, first, which naturally militates against even the concept of a collective... along with, of course, nyu-style efforts to sabotage such efforts... adjuncts are usually spread pretty friggin thin, work wise... long story, i'm just sketching quickly... you adjuncts out there, speak up!... as to class consciousness in academe, murat, i entirely agree... here again, it's one of the few workplaces in which you'll find your coworkers enjoying potentially far more comfy (or less comfy, if you deign to look) lifestyles than you enjoy... it's not like assembly line work, where workers work to make x living... in academe, the partners of academics can often be relatively high income types, meaning your colleague who's also making $50K can be living in a million dollar home (i'm not joking) while fulfilling his/her lifelong aspirations as a prof... this of course works against collective bargaining, as lifestyle disparities vitiate the salary issues... and i haven't even begun to discuss disparities (of salary etc.) within a given u (between the tech fields, say, and the humanities)... yeah, we could use a whole lot more class consciousness in academe, one of my chief complaints about working as a prof... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 17:49:42 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mairead Byrne Subject: Re: From the horse's mouth Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dear Kevin, could you go back for dessert and ask him his opinion of May Swenson? God, I've just realized I don't care about his opinion of May Swenson. In fact, I don't even own a copy of the anthology, in any shape or form. Just tell me about the dessert. If they have dessert at Benihana. Mairead >>> kevinkillian@EARTHLINK.NET 10/14/02 02:29 AM >>> I went to lunch with Donald Allen yesterday and asked him why, for example, Muriel Rukeyser wasn't one of the poets he included in "The New American Poetry." Was it because, as some have speculated, he considered her part of the "1.5" generation which included Patchen, Zukofsky, Rexroth. "No," he replied. "I just never thought much of her work. She was everything the book was supposed to be against. I had met her in Berkeley, but got to know her after I met Octavio Paz, first in Mexico City, then in New York. He wanted me to publish Rukeyser's translations of his poems. I thought they were awful." Her own poetry? "Does she have her partisans?" "I'm one," I flared out. "I mean, she's good and she's bad. We all have our ups and downs." He considered. We were at Benihana and the chef was throwing things up in the air and stabbing them with knives then pinning them down on a big hot steel table and the steam was hissing like mad. "Bit of a sentimentalist." Afterwards I thought, but yet look at our dear John Wieners and he was a bit of a sentimentalist and what was wrong with that? But, it was all so long ago and far away. It's hard to transport oneself back to another time. -- Kevin K. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 17:01:03 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: women in The New American Poetry/ Laura Ulewicz In-Reply-To: <000001c27390$d4a78b30$19000140@Glasscastle> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable In the late fifties through the early seventies, Laura Ulewicz - a Polish-American woman from Detroit - was very present in both North Beach and the Haight-Ashbury. (In the late sixties she own the I & Thou Coffee Shop on Haight Street, a singular venue for poetry readings during a time which the interest in poetry had been replaced by the music, drugs, etc.) = I am not sure would have ever fit - or even wanted to fit - the aesthetic dimensions of the Allen anthology. There were people at the time such as both Laura and Jack Gilbert (a member of Spicer's workshop) who were definitely involved, friendly, aware, influenced, and combative within the local scene, but by temperament they sustained a fierce independence from the Duncan, Spicer or other umbrellas that fed into the construction of the Pacific portion of the Allen anthology. But without going further down that track of associations, I would say that Laura wrote some very significant poems, indeed quite fierce, probing and smart - drawing from her Polish American roots, her wanderings back and forth across the country, her encounters in California. Romantic in its sense of quest, but definitely very smart and counter-romantic in terms of its continental yield. Ironically her only literary success was in 1964 when she won the Guinness Poetry Prize at the Cheltenham Festival of Literature which led to a small publication, The Inheritance, by Turret books in 1967. To get a limited sense of the work, here's a section of a two part series, Within One Temperate Zone (2) It wasn't on the map. heat stalled the car At the valley or base of the 10th hill. Lost. A post office side the town of San Sinduda. Not On the map. I asked Carl, "Who do you suppose has ever climbed that hill?" In a thousand Years maybe one Indian. A ranch-hand After cattle. A bull after a cow. Two boys in black jeans leaned against a log fence Playing a pocket radio and cursing Loud to beat the vastness down. A matter Of will and hot jazz. I said, "It's pretty Tame here" - being, of course, wrong. I might Have meant "too wild with people". And so we climbed, Until the car should cool, more to escape Noise than to discover. That seconded The wrong. Yet, pausing for breath on the ascent, Carl told me how on his mother's grave in Concord, While drunk, he first made love to another man. In Concord - where the hills are monumented With Hawthorne, Melville, Walden Pond, and our first Revolution for severance - the fought one. Now we looked eastward across a namelessness Of hills. For beyond this one was another equal In size, and beyond it another, until Our minds, wanting to fix, were trapped in freedom. Often I dream I open a hundred doors And behind each door there is only another door. * Laura - to my knowledge - has disappeared from the literary landscape. Last I saw her was ten years ago at her home in Locke on the Sacramento River in Northern, California. Anthology omission or not, I think her work definitel= y worth a revisit. Stephen V on 10/14/02 7:48 AM, Rachel Loden at rloden@CONCENTRIC.NET wrote: > What about Carol Berg=E9? She was in the hideously titled (and > Jones/Baraka edited) _Four Young Lady Poets_, along with Moraff, Owens, > and Wakoski. >=20 > Born 1928, so she's actually six years older than Baraka. >=20 > But don't that title say it all? >=20 >> i think the original q was which women poets cd/shd have been >> included in the Allen anthology, not who were the interesting women >> poets writing at the time? i think we'd all agree that, talented and >> fabulous as plath and sexton are, their aesthetic is of a different >> orientation than most of the men and women whose work appeared in >> TNAP. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 20:51:33 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: inside/outside the academy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/14/02 5:30:21 PM, joe.amato@COLORADO.EDU writes: >but what stops adjuncts from organizing on most campuses is the >precarious nature of their positions, Joe, That's exactly the point, beside many adjuncts working on more than one campus simultaneously. My idea was the tenured and adjuncts work on the same side. On the other hand, perhaps the legal analysis was right(!). The tenured economically (therefore defending their interests) do belong more to the management side, even in their "ideas" the opposite. Since I don't teach I may not know the fine points. One question, isn't not renewing one's yearly contract a kind of lock out? Murat ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 17:57:22 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K. Silem Mohammad" Subject: Re: looking for Edwin Torres In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit It's like four hours later, so I'm sure someone else already sent you this, but just in case: brainlingo@yahoo.com Luv, Kasey P. S. Will get you that essay by the December deadline! Thanks! on 10/14/02 1:18 PM, Small Press Traffic at smallpress@CCAC-ART.EDU wrote: > Hi pardon the interruption -- I have misplaced Edwin Torres's email and would > be grateful for a backchannel response if you have it. Thanks > > > Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson, Executive Director > Small Press Traffic > Literary Arts Center at CCAC > 1111 - 8th Street > San Francisco, California 94107 > http://www.sptraffic.org > 415-551-9278 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 18:03:02 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K. Silem Mohammad" Subject: Re: looking for Edwin Torres (sorry) In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sorry for posting that last message to the entire list. And sorry for wasting even more list time with this apology. Sorry for just generally being lame. Sorry, my dear departed mum, for all the pain I must have caused you in childbirth. Sorry.... Kasey ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 18:11:17 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: [Valley_Contemporary_Poets] Ralph Angel & Holady Mason on October 20th MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT The Valley Contemporary Poets will present a reading by Ralph Angel and Holaday Mason, Sunday, October 20, 2002 in part of the Los Angeles metro region (across the street from where Robert Blake shot his wife). This is an wonderful opportunity to hear two accomplished poets in an intimate setting. Date: October 20, 2002 Time: 3:00 pm Where: Portrait of a Bookstore, 4360 Tujunga, Studio City, CA. Open reading sign-up: 2:45 pm. A $3.00 donation is requested. (818) 769-3853. a little more about the poets: RALPH ANGEL Ralph Angel is the author of "Twice Removed"(Sarabande Books, 2001), "Neither World", which received the 1995 James Laughlin Award, and "Anxious Latitudes" (1986). His poems have appeared in The New Yorker, Poetry, The Antioch Review, The American Poetry Review, and many other magazines, and have been collected in numerous anthologies, including The Best American Poetry, New American Poets of the 90s, and Forgotten Language: Contemporary Poets and Nature. His recent honors include a Pushcart Prize, and awards from the Fulbright Foundation and Poetry magazine. Mr. Angel is the Edith R. White Endowed Chair in English at the University of Redlands, and a member of the MFA Program in Writing faculty at Vermont College. Originally from Seattle, he now lives in Los Angeles HOLADAY MASON Holaday Mason has published two chapbooks: "Light Spilling From its Own Cup"(Inevitable Press,1999) and "Interlude" (Far Star Fire Press, 2001). Nominated for a Pushcart Prize in 2000, her work has appeared in such journals as Poetry International, Spillway, Cider Press Review, The Yalobusha Review, The Portland Review, The Nebraska Review, Art/Life, and Echo 681, which she co-edited for Beyond Baroque. She has just completed her first book length manuscript of poems,"Hunting the Once Night." *** The reading is in the back courtyard. Come early to browse books, drink coffee and eat yummy pastries. Hope to see you there! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 21:20:20 -0400 Reply-To: Allen Bramhall Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Allen Bramhall Subject: Re: looking for Edwin Torres (sorry) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit further sorry for the amplitude in relation to the tiniest particles, suggesting that the war zone of embryonic talent is lessened in years of wasting bandwidth, like all those others untethered when there's really so much time. sorry again for trammels and take away the fact that. if there is a nice place on earth, away from the pattern of how they look at it, when invading, then we should seize that point as a departure, rocking to and fro with the softest words of forgiveness. sorry to even suggest that the waste makes me human when easy involuntary waxes often, and I have just sat on my last sonnet. sorry for the sonnets that never could. sorry I counted so high, while the sonnets wanted their own sorry. sorry that mum said that there was no more, when time surely knew better. sorry that aliens are in Allston, Massachusetts, and sorry for their expectation. look, I am sorry while the Nile goes pouty and the Tibetan woods are no longer in the claim. sorry about how there is a spell worth sending to the end of class, where the sentence looks so good. sorry if this all intrudes. my sonnets are sock monsters, and there's just no time for reverse. ----- Original Message ----- From: "K. Silem Mohammad" To: Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 9:03 PM Subject: Re: looking for Edwin Torres (sorry) > Sorry for posting that last message to the entire list. And sorry for > wasting even more list time with this apology. Sorry for just generally > being lame. Sorry, my dear departed mum, for all the pain I must have > caused you in childbirth. Sorry.... > > Kasey ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 21:55:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jennifer Ley Subject: Re: ?Why is code so important to practitioners of new media poetry?? In-Reply-To: <6509184.1034547360@localhost> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > I for one am uncomfortable with making other poets uncomfortable over the > fact that they're not comfortable with tools like javascript -- which is a > rather bad programming language, by the way -- the poet *shouldn't have to > write code*. Jim -- to clarify ... I said 'to the new media poet'. Not to the poet. Big difference there. I'm not talking about Microsoft's code. Or Macromedia's code. I personally prefer code that I don't have to buy specific software/wear (tho I always do like a nice new outfit) to produce, which I can customize within my own limited ability to do so. What I do see though in the work by many of the new media (or digital or electronic or hypermedia -- take your adjectival pick) poets I admire is a choice to utilize snippets of code or coded effects/techniques as tropes, as assonance, as metaphor, etc. and I think these instantiations of code become poetic devices for those poets. And I find that very intriguing -- because it opens up certain new possibilities for discussion concerning developing an aesthetics for new media poetry (again, substitute your own favorite adjective). I'm specifically not seeking to bury any other area of poetic practice. Anyone who has watched my editorial policy knows that ... I enjoy finding commonalities between schools of thought and expression and probably always will. I appreciate your thoughts and those of others who have responded. best Jennifer ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 22:13:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: Re: 20 Sonnets Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed My sonnets are a sequence written across 14 line fields. The first 100 were written between my birthday and opening day this year, and the subsequent 20 are a bit like b-sides. I'd like to write 1000, I think, but have moved onto different projects. I'm not sure that its meaningful or necessary, at least for me, to follow the rules of traditional sonnets. If I drive a Hyundai and call it a Camaro, hey, life's short. --Jim Behrle _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 22:40:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tisa Bryant Subject: Percival Everett at Brown Univ. Oct. 17, 8pm Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable The Brown Creative Writing Program presents: The Contemporary Writers Series! This week, Percival Everett will read from his fiction at the McCormack Family Theater 70 Brown Street, between Waterman and Angell Streets (please use entrance on Fones Alley) Thursday, October 17 8pm Reception to follow. Please join us in celebrating Mr. Everett's achievements! About the Author: PERCIVAL EVERETT is Professor of English at University of Southern California. A judge for the National Book Awards in 1998, he is the author of 13 previous books, including Glyph (1999), Frenzy (1997), Watershed (1996), and Suder (1983). He is the 2002 Winner of the Hurston/Wright Legacy=81 Award for his latest book, Erasure. Praise for Everett's latest book, Erasure: "Oases in what too often feels a dreary desert of literary mediocrity, Everett's books -- and there are many of them, almost one a year for the last 18 years -- are unfailingly intelligent and funny, formally bold and intellectually ambitious . . . [the novel-within-the-novel] is a truly vile and very, very funny piece of writing, mocking the cliches of ghetto genre-writing with all possible viciousness." -- LA Weekly "The sharp satire on American publishers and American readers that Everett puts forward is delicious, though it won't win him many friends among the sentimental educated class who want to read something serious about black inner-city life without disturbing any of their stereotypes." -- Chicago Tribune "Short, tight and nasty, [the novel-within-the-novel is] as fast and funny as a modern-day 'Candide'." -- San Francisco Chronicle "A palimpsest of fictions under fictions under fictions . . . an ingenious and affecting novel . . . Erasure deserves the attention of anyone -- black or white -- interested in sophisticated fiction that subtly questions the phrase 'black and white'. " -- BOOK Magazine A recent interview with Percival Everett and the University of New England Press can be read online at: http://www.dartmouth.edu/acad-inst/upne/1-58465-090-7.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 22:44:53 -0400 Reply-To: bstefans@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Brian Stefans [arras.net]" Subject: SEGUE READING: Gregory Whitehead and Bill Berkson, October 19th Comments: To: bstefans@arras.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit SEGUE READING SERIES AT THE BOWERY POETRY CLUB http://www.bowerypoetry.com/ 308 BOWERY, JUST NORTH OF HOUSTON SATURDAYS FROM 4 - 6 PM $4 admission goes to support the readers Funding is made possible by the continuing support of the Segue Foundation and the Literature Program of the New York State Council on the Arts. Curators: October/November--Brian Kim Stefans & Gary Sullivan October 19: Gregory Whitehead and Bill Berkson Gregory Whitehead's voiceworks and radio plays include The Pleasure of Ruins, Pressures of the Unspeakable and The Thing About Bugs. His writings on language and electronic media have been widely anthologized, and he is the co-editor of Wireless Imagination: Sound, Radio and the Avant-Garde (MIT Press). He wants to talk about squid. Bio, bibliography, selected work: http://www.location1.org/artists/whitehead.html If we think of Bill Berkson as bi-coastal, it's only because we were so smitten by his recently re-published collaborative work with Frank O'Hara, Hymns of St. Bridget & Other Writings (The Owl Press). But, yes, to be fair to him‹and the west coast‹he has, for many years now, been one of the Bay Area's brightest shining stars, with an oeuvre that includes everything from art writing to the poems and prose of Serenade (Zoland Books). Don't miss his rare east-coast visit! Interview: http://www.twc.org/forums/poetschat/poetschat_bberkson.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 16:13:12 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: My Deep Converse Over the Years With J A MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (This is the tragedy of not being "fluent" on a keyboard....Mallarke was off course Mallarme!) now, main subject: As to meetings, its not generally known that apart from some of the quite well known Langpos, I am interestingly, and unbeknown to the larger Poetic Fraternity, "connected" to John Ashbery (although discretion and breeeding forbid disclosure of the "how" of this conjunction)..In fact, such is it, that I buzzed Ashers...oh, so sorry...of course you all call him John or J A Or John Ashbery, or.... Please DONT make jokes about Siamese twins they're most tasteless...now, where was I?... only the other day.....oh: but talking to John as I have over the years, I have ear bashed him re his general "uningagement" with politics, and the near total hermetic poetics, his seemingly unstoppable creative outpurrings,..I m-mean outpourings: his fluidity, his wit, his mix of the popular and the "high" or the "haute", and the damnable and near clingingly claustrophobic self referential quality of his work: but what "saves" John, is, in fact, not his poetry, per se, but, his shared interest, in, rediscovering, the unlikely, but, suddenly fascinating writers such as Witter Bynner (naturelement the cognoscenti will connect my reference to Ern Malley, ha huh) (a writer I myself had stumbled on) (Bynner I mean) (I've lost his book dammit...) (or did I sell it or lend it?)...but I was also surprised to discover that it was he, Ashers be dammed!, who in fact suggested the whole concept of the 4' 33 and one half of a half of a second performance to John Cage of an evening the both of them pissed as newts and quite crazy (both being normally quite serious, e'en sedate personas) after a 20 hour reading and transcription of the entire works of Emily Dickinson was mooted to be interlaced or palimpsested face en face so to speak with those of Emily Dickinson, Schwitters, barrett watten, Charles Dickens, Browning, Mrs Smith, Ella Wheela Wilcox, McGonagall, and various others such as John Betjemann (Ashers actually rang me that very evening in his cups as was his wont in those days) here; here!! hehe, ha...be-thinking I was John Tranter but he said that was ok as he was pissed out of his skull any case, and I reccccommmmended to his unerring ear John Betjemann, and reminded him of Ern Malley, and suggested they could incorporate a REALLY boring Aussie poet such as..well, there's so many to choose from...he he!!!. ..he) but really John is a wonderful wonderful man living a joyous and rich life in upstate NY and visiting the KGB bar betwixt times and so on. He kept asking me though: is ....he had a long list ....is Andy Warhol REALLY dead, and his tape recorder (did it get smashed or is it still hidden safely somewhere in a grave?), and why did Beuys talk to that hare ( "dead" hare he repeatedly quizzes?) (he cant "get" that one - strange, John having such a subtle mind) is Jim Dine dead, Jaspers, Johns, de Kooning, Mel Bochner, Duane, Freud (the artist), and so on... and he was most anxious that I had read every single book - nay every letter of every word! - ever written about him and by him and all his poetry books ( for which _raison _he wont hear a word against Harold Bloom! ..) ( he has a habit of cunningly asking what is on page 75 line 28 of eg "A Vermont Note Book") and all his writings,and I kept reassuring, him that, (he gets in such a state), that, yes, John, how could I not? Poor dear Johnannes... I couldnt get him interested in politics though, and ...in fact that's a point: there is a strange side effect in talking to John - who is a kind of US Picasso of poetry: one becomes snake - mesmerised by his near-sad, yet crisp, East Coast accents, and e'en here, in the antipodes, so far from my distant rele, so far yet - in oh such a mortal way so near!!!....there is a soothing and ancient sadness (despite the seeming acerbity with which that said mellowness seems to be intermodulate): as of thrice sung songs, and mellow fruitfulness amid apple trees, and fruit around the vine, and things being plumped, and the last oozings...ah think not on them!! ah!! Lovely man, so wise, so erudite, so so so, so Ashberic a man: I always leave the phone with enormous reluctance after "goodnightynighting" dear Ashey, and my whole being is aglow and bright and afire with the joy and the existential "squeal" of _Lifefulness_ (das Lebenlicht, if I recall correctly, it is, in German)....at having been "in touch" with such an immortal mortal. Richard Taylor. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 20:13:11 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Damian Judge Rollison Subject: Re: ?Why is code so important to practitioners of new media poetry?? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Jennifer, I'm curious as to what you mean when you say that code can be used "as assonance." Do you mean "for"? And can you give an example? Thanks Damian On Mon, 14 Oct 2002 21:55:46 -0400 Jennifer Ley wrote: > > I for one am uncomfortable with making other poets uncomfortable over the > > fact that they're not comfortable with tools like javascript -- which is a > > rather bad programming language, by the way -- the poet *shouldn't have to > > write code*. > > Jim -- to clarify ... > > I said 'to the new media poet'. Not to the poet. Big difference there. > > I'm not talking about Microsoft's code. Or Macromedia's code. I personally > prefer code that I don't have to buy specific software/wear (tho I always do > like a nice new outfit) to produce, which I can customize within my own > limited ability to do so. > > What I do see though in the work by many of the new media (or digital or > electronic or hypermedia -- take your adjectival pick) poets I admire is a > choice to utilize snippets of code or coded effects/techniques as tropes, as > assonance, as metaphor, etc. and I think these instantiations of code become > poetic devices for those poets. > > And I find that very intriguing -- because it opens up certain new > possibilities for discussion concerning developing an aesthetics for new > media poetry (again, substitute your own favorite adjective). > > I'm specifically not seeking to bury any other area of poetic practice. > Anyone who has watched my editorial policy knows that ... I enjoy finding > commonalities between schools of thought and expression and probably always > will. > > I appreciate your thoughts and those of others who have responded. > > best > > Jennifer <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< damian judge rollison department of english university of virginia djr4r@virginia.edu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 16:17:37 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Fw: Amiri Baraka Under Attack MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This was sent to myself and some other poets over here in NZ. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Hamilton" > Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 1:52 AM Subject: Amiri Baraka Under Attack > > Hi guys, > > not sure if you've seen this. Of course I don't buy > his conspiracy theory stuff, but AB should be defended > against the creeping police state. There is quite a > lot of action by US artists and writers against the > war, with a 'Not in our name' statement being put > around and signed by various 'names' (Adrienne Rich > and Laurie Anderson are two I remember). Be > interesting to put the 'avant-garde' poets who > supported the war in Afghanistan - Silliman, Antin, > Perloff - on the spot. Come to think of it, be > interesting to poll NZ writers. Lot of lit zines did > this in the 60s, over Nam, and in the 30s, over Spain. > > > STATEMENT BY AMIRI BARAKA, NEW JERSEY POET LAUREATE > 10/2/2002 > > I WILL NOT "APOLOGIZE", I WILL NOT "RESIGN!" > > The recent dishonest, consciously distorted and > insulting non- > interpretation of my poem, "Somebody Blew Up America" > by > the "Anti-Defamation" League, is fundamentally an > attempt to > defame me. And with that, an attempt to repress and > stigmatize independent thinkers everywhere. > > This trashy propaganda is characteristic of right-wing > zealots who are interested only in slander and > character > assassination of those whose views or philosophies > differ > from or are in contradiction to theirs. > > First, the poem underlying theme focuses on how Black > Americans have suffered from domestic terrorism since > being > kidnapped into US chattel slavery, e.g., by Slave > Owners, US > & State Laws, Klan, Skin Heads, Domestic Nazis, > Lynching, > denial of rights, national oppression, racism, > character > assassination, historically, and at this very minute > throughout the US. The relevance of this to Bush call > for > a "War on Terrorism", is that Black people feel we > have > always been victims of terror, governmental and > general, so > we cannot get as frenzied and hysterical as the people > who > while asking us to dismiss our history and > contemporary > reality to join them, in the name of a shallow > "patriotism" > in attacking the majority of people in the world, > especially > people of color and in the third world. > > This is said to us, even as this counterfeit > president has legalized the Confederate Flag in > Mississippi. > Could the victims of European Fascism be as > frantically loyal > to a regime that would fly a Nazi Swastika over their > homes? > So we cannot, in good conscience, celebrate what seems > to us > an international crusade to set up a military > dictatorship > over the world, legitimatized at base, by white > supremacy, > carried out, no matter the crude lies, as the most > terrifying > form of Imperialism and its attendant national > oppression. > All of it designed to drain super profits bluntly from > the > colored peoples of the world, but as well, from the > majority > of the peoples in the world. For all the frantic > condemnations of Terror by Bush etc., as the single > International Super Power, they are the most dangerous > terrorists in the world! > > Actually, in my focus on various forces of terror Afro > Americans and other oppressed people of the world have > suffered, slavery, colonialism, Imperialism, Neo neo- > colonialism, National Oppression, the ADL > disingenuously > makes no mention of my probing into the creators of > the > holocaust, e.g., "who put the Jews in ovens, / and who > helped > them do it, / Who said "America First"/ and Ok'd the > yellow > stars", which of course is a reference to America's > domestic > fascists just before World War II and the Nazi > Holocaust. > > Nor do these ADL purveyors of falsehood mention > the poem's listing of some of the Jews across the > world, > oppressed, imprisoned, murdered by actual Anti- > Semitic > forces, open or disguised. The poem asks "Who killed > Rosa > Luxembourg, Liebnecht/Who murdered the Rosenbergs/ And > all > the good people iced, tortured, assassinate, > vanished". > > The ADL apparently is not outraged by McCarthy > era frame-up and execution of the Rosenbergs, nor the > assassination of German Jewish Communist leaders like > Liebnecht, Luxembourg. The ADL leaves these things out > to try > to make their lies more believable, and also because > these > victims of imperialism were on the Left. > > Happily the Star Ledger published the entire poem, > though including in a box, supposedly identifying the > offending phrases, my question, "Who Blew Up The > Reichstag?" > as if the ADL had also claimed that the poem was > inferring > that Jews did it. When it was Hitler's destruction of > the > Reichstag, that provided the pretext for the general > imprisonment of Jews, after incarcerating Communists, > Social > Democrats and Trade Unionists. Why this was done one > can > only speculate, but this is the kind of sloppy or > intentionally slanderous journalism one can often find > in the > media. It also reflects the kind of unprincipled > attack that > characterizes ADL press release. > > The Reichstag fire, parallels the 911 Attack, in > that after that "mysterious act of terrorism", which > Hitler > blamed on Jews and Communists, the Nazis passed a law > The > Reichstag Enablement Act, that gave the Nazis much the > same > carte blanche as the Bush administration used the 911 > tragedy > to pass the wholly undemocratic Patriot Bill and begin > rounding up suspects, even without identifying them. > Of > course the actual arsonists of the Reichstag terror > were > never found, though most scholars are certain it was > the > Nazis themselves. > > Of the other lines of the poem, which the ADL termed > an example of the Hitlerian "Big Lie", and the poet's > "spewing Anti-Semitic venom". The lines, "Who knew the > World > Trade Center was gonna get/bombed?" Well now, > certainly, even > the Democratic Party has affirmed that the Bush > Administration > knew. I agree with this, and it is everywhere on the > Internet > that not only was the US warned repeatedly by Germany, > France, Russia, England but also Israel. Michael > Ruppert of > the Green Party has issued a video stating clearly, > "Israeli > security issued urgent warnings to the CIA of > large-scale > terror attacks. .And that the Israeli Mossad knew that > the > attacks were going to take place.they knew that the > World > Trade Center were the targets. This is from British > newspaper > the "Telegraph". (Copies of these documents available > with > this statement.) > > In addition there are articles in all forms of media > and of course the Internet confirming or suggesting > that the > entire Imperialist world knew and had warned the US > CIA in > advance, but no action was taken. WHY. They say > they "couldn't connect the dots". The FBI agents in > Minnesota and Arizona who sd that FBI received a > report in > 1998 that a terrorist organization .planned to bring > people > to the US to enroll in flight schools. Zacharias > Moussoui, > now charged with conspiring in the Sept 11 attacks, > was > arrested by the Minnesota agents of the FBI in August > 2001 > but FBI HQ denied agents request to seek a warrant > even to > search his computer. And in a prepared statement by a > Minnesota FBI agent, he blamed legal restrictions but > principally FBI headquarters for impeding a more > aggressive > investigation of this man. As for the other agent's > attempt > to warn the FBI HQ of these attacks, he was rebuffed > when he > made the report, but now FBI HQ says it has not record > of > such warning. (See http://www.Truthout.org/docs) There > are > other incredible dots on the media, for instance the > stockholders of American Airlines and United, which > were the > carriers highjacked to commit the terror began > withdrawing > stock from these companies in August before the > attacks. > > The most offensive phrase in the poem to my various > attackers is, "Who told 4000 Israeli workers at the > Twin > Towers / to stay home that day/ Why did Sharon stay > away?" To > infer that I am accusing Israel of committing the > atrocity is > disingenuous slander and character assassination. But > I do > believe, as I stated about England, Germany, France, > Russia, > that the Israeli government, certainly it's security > force, > SHABAK knew about the attack in advance. > > My sources were, "Ha'aretz" and "Yadiot Ahranot" (two > Israeli newspapers) "Al Watan" (a Jordanian newspaper) > "Manar" -TV and the website of the Israeli security > force > SHABAK. There are myriad references to this in > Reuters, Der > Spiegel. The Israeli newspaper Yadiot Ahranot first > revealed > that SHABAK had canceled Sharon's appearance in New > York City > that day, Sept 11, where he was supposed to speak at > an "Israel Day" celebration. This was also mentioned > in the > Star Ledger, to the effect that Sharon was supposed to > visit > the US, but no dates were mentioned. > > It is the Green Party's Ruppert who makes the most > effective case for the 4000 Israeli workers (Not > Jewish > Workers!) but Israeli nationals. He says in his video, > "if > what I am showing you is known overtly although the > media, > how much more does our thirty billion dollar > intelligence > community know". He goes on, and this seems true to > me, It > is "Nonsense" to say the Israelis did it. They were > warning > the U.S. hand over fist." Ruppert speculates further > 1. The > US did not listen 2. They needed the attacks" which I > leave > to time, as Malcolm X sd, Time will tell. > > But the most stunning revelation is this, again > Ruppert, "We reviewed the list of former tenants of > the World > Trade Center at the on-line Wall St Journal site. And > there's > the website. It is an alphabetical list of tenants. > Scroll to > the very bottom and notice the moving date for the > office of > Zim American-Israeli Shipping to Norfolk Virginia. > They were > in the World Trade Center. They must have had Mossad" > (or > Shabak- AB) input because they vacated one week before > September and they broke their lease. The Israelis > didn't > pull the attack, but they were smart enough to get > their > people out of the way. How come our government didn't > do the > same thing for us." (Statement & Quote by George > DeCarlo, > Coordinator of Union County Greens, Co Founder of the > NJ > Lavender Greens- included in media pkg.) > > The poem was never saying anything else, i.e., why > didn't the other slaughtered Americans know? I WAS NOT > SAYING > ISRAEL WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE ATTACK, BUT THAT THEY > KNEW AND > OUR OWN COUNTERFEIT PRESIDENT DID TOO! There is other > disturbing facts surround the hideous 911 attacks, > which my > family and I could see from the third floor bathroom > window > of our homes! And certainly one day all this will be > thoroughly investigated. The poem says "Who know why > Five > Israelis was filming the explosion/ And cracking they > sides > at the notion." I got this story from The Star Ledger, > where > it appeared twice, and The New York Times. > > The reference to "cracking they sides" or laughing > uproariously while filming the 911 attack, apparently > on the > top of a truck from the Jersey side is a direct > paraphrase of > the Ledger articles. In fact, the State Police, who > arrested > them, stated that that is one of the reasons they did > arrest > them, because they were laughing. > > Again, these were Israeli Nationals, persons holding > Israeli passports. The Times article even reported on > what > their lives were like in Jail. And implied they would > be > deported. So this reference is not more of the ADL's > "Anti- > Semitic venom" but arrived at merely from studying the > US > media. Why those five Israelis were there filming and > laughing I do not claim know. That's why the poem here > and > throughout continuously chants the question WHO WHO > WHO? That > is, who is responsible for this horrible crime and > WHY? It is > a poem that aims to probe and disturb, but there is > not the > slightest evidence of Anti-Semitism, as anyone who > reads it > without some insidious bias would have to agree. Why > the ADL > would do this, I can only speculate. > > I wish they and other concerned pundits would > speculate > on how an Airplane flying in America, where the pilot > has to > file a flight plan before taking off, how can such a > plane or > two or three of them file such a route in which they > would > travel, and in the case of the planes leaving Boston > make 45 > degree turns south and fly 54 minutes to the World > Trade > Center and 90 minutes to the Pentagon and not be > challenged > by US Air Defense Fighters, or brought down by ground > to air > missiles? > > Having been in the Air Force I know those ADC fighters > would normally confront such "rogue" aircraft within a > few > minutes! Why was this not done? Let the ADL and the > media > investigating me, investigate that! We should know > that Bush > and his Right Wing crew want War against all the > forces of > their so called "Axis of Evil" What a not so wild > coincidence > that the path of this Axis parallels the route of the > proposed US oil corporations- pipe line from Saudi to > the far > east, apparently to oppose the spiraling economic > growth and > influence of China. They scream "Bin Laden" and > "Taliban" and > destroy Afghanistan, install a puppet president and a > shadow > occupation force. > > Next in the Axis is Iraq, we should have known that. > With no real proof at all again the people of the US > outraged > and frightened by the Reichstag of 911 are hyped with > chants > of "Regime Change" and "Saddam Hussein". No longer is > the > madness of crowds being aroused by the "Anti > -Terrorist" > campaign and Bin Laden as the Devil figure used to > rouse the > people to a patriotic frenzy, now it is Saddam > Hussein. So > forget last month's war and get ready for this > month's. > Bush says he wants "regime change" in Palestine, he > wants to > oust Arafat, now in Iraq, and he wants to oust Saddam. > The > Axis projects Iran next and then North Korea. What is > this an > updated version of 1984 or an American version of > Hitler's > and Bush 1's) New World Order? > > Regime Change, why? Because these regimes are anti > democratic or terrorists or in the case of Saddam, > they > have "weapons of mass destruction". Well if being anti > democratic were a good rationalization for foreign > invasions > of countries then the United States better watch out > because > the Florida coup, which tricked the American people > into > accepting Bush as President is anything but > democratic. > Should we let foreign countries invade us to get rid > of Bush? > What would be the American People's reaction to such > Third > Reich replay? > > And as for Saddam having "weapons of mass destruction" > (or mass diversion as some critics say), the US has > these > weapons. So do Israel, South Africa, Germany, France, > Italy, > England, Russia, and now China, India, Pakistan. How > is it > the US and its allies (except the Chinese) can have > such > weapons, but no one else can. The answer to that, of > course, > is White Supremacy and Imperialism. And what should be > the > growing understanding by the American people and the > democratic people of the world, is what the far right > Bush > coven wants is a military dictatorship of the world. > The ADL, by attacking me by distorting what my poem is > saying, is doing its usual ugly, as a well known > running dog > of imperialism, particularly by attacking anyone who > takes an > independent position or is critical of Israeli > Imperialism > and its attendant ideology political Zionism. As they > are > attempting with me the ADL slanders anyone who is not > happy > with Israel's ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians > As Anti Semitic, when lst of all Israel and its > guiding > philosophy have nothing to do, as categories, with > Jews. > (See "Zionism in the Age of the Dictators", Brenner > > But this is the trick such demagogues as the ADL use > to > hide the crimes of Imperialist Israel. When we > criticize US > imperialism does that make us enemies of Christianity, > maybe > only to Jerry Falwell and such Right wing Christian > Zealots, > perhaps Asscraft But neither Israel nor Zionism is the > same > as Judaism. (Op cit Brenner; also "The Dilemma of the > Modern > Jew, Prinz".) But this is the trick the Israeli's and > their > sympathizers use to hide behind Judaism. Israel (and > it's > political Zionism) has as much to do with Judaism, as > the US > has to do with Christianity. > > In the US our constitution makes clear that this is a > secular nation and by law theoretically enforces > separation > of church and state, tho Mr. Bush and Mr. Asscraft > have > demonstrated they disagree, and Israel outright says > it is > a "Jewish State" but if that is so then that explains > why it > can discriminate against its Arab people living inside > Israel > and make them 2nd class citizens, in much the same way > that > South Africa, a close friend did under Apartheid. (See > "The > Crisis of Black Jewish Relations", Brenner & Bloom; > "Israel > and South Africa", Stevens & Ellmessi; The "Arabs in > Israel" > by Sabri Jiryis, foreword by Noam Chomsky). > > The ADL attacks so it can confuse people and show me > as > just another Anti- Semitic attacker of their > absolutely false > depictions of Israel as a victim of Palestinian > Terrorism. > This is absolutely in tune with the Bush > administrations > Frenzied "destroy Iraq regime change "Jones" (a street > word > for narcotics addiction) that the administration is > chanting > around us like cheer leaders at a football game! So > that US > imperialism can transform the whole of the Middle > East, the > Arab world into a gas station (See "Bushwacked: A > Counterfeit > President for a Fake Democracy", Baraka) > > So that we are supposed to believe that if a little > girl blows herself up in a Israeli Pizza Parlor, she > is a > terrorist, but when Israeli Jets, made in the USA, > destroy > whole sections of Palestinian cities, bulldoze > neighborhoods, > all but destroy the Palestinian Center of Governance, > with > its President, Yasser Arafat, inside sitting in the > dark, it > is the Israelis who are victims and the little > Palestinian > girl or boy or young man or young woman or even elder, > they > are the terrorists. We are supposed to be intimidated > by > demagogues like the Anti Defamation League (who should > be > called the Anti Anti Defamation League) so that Israel > as a > jr. partner of the Bush led US goosestep to world > military > domination can commit ethnic cleansing of the > Palestinians in > the name of fighting terrorism. > > It is the ADL, which is actually guilty of what its > leader, Abraham Foxman calls the Hitlerian "Big Lie", > and > ironically it is the ADL, which is "spewing > anti-Semitic > venom". The same ADL which became aware of "Black Anti > Semitism", which it had earlier said has never been a > threat, > until Stokely Carmichael and SNCC began to support the > PLO > and the Palestinian Struggle as a Liberation Struggle > and > condemn Israeli Imperialism and Zionism. That is when, > as > Stokeley Carmichael says in the A-APRP's "Smash > Zionism" the > ADL smashed SNCC instead. As Israel drew closer to > South > Africa, politically, economically, militarily in the > 60's > (Op Cit, above & others) the Black Liberation Movement > and > African Nations became more and more guilty, according > to the > ADL, of "Black Anti-Semitism". > > This is the same ADL who opposed Affirmative Action, > even though many Jews benefited by the Civil Rights > Struggle, > and the most notable white comrades in that struggle > were > young Jews. The same ADL that filed an Amicus Curiae > (friend > of the court brief) in the historic and reactionary > Baake > Decision which challenged & defeated the University of > California's affirmative action as "racist" and was > explained > by the ADL as its opposition to quotas. So that the > university's could now enforce a quota on Black > students of > none! > > This is the same ADL, which in league with the > American Israel Political Action Committee, just a few > weeks > ago sent millions of dollars into Atlanta, Georgia to > defeat > progressive Black Congress woman Cynthia McKinney, > because > she called for a more balance American view of the > Palestinian -Israeli Conflict. These same forces > defeated > in Alabama, another progressive Black incumbent > Congressman, > because he too dared to support the Palestinians. (See > New > York Times), Amsterdam News, Star Ledger). Very much > like the > way Bush touts "Regime Change," recently even hinting > at an > attempted Assassination of Saddam Hussein, if the > American > People rise up and force our congress to deny the Bush > juggernaut of terror to attack Iraq. > > ADL and their " bagman" AIPAC didn't like these black > politicians stance on Israel, so in a minute and a few > million dollars, they are gone! So now, it's my turn. > Using > my poem, Somebody Blew Up America" they are going to > spread > the Big Lie, distort what poem says. Cover the fact > that this > poem actually is an attack on Imperialism, National > Oppression, Monopoly Capitalism, Racism, > Anti-Semitism. I > challenge ADL to show anywhere in this poem that is > Anti- > Semitic in the least. In their press release they say > talk > about "Jews being scapegoated throughout history.' > then "conspiracy mongers of the Arab world.have taken > Anti- > Israel propaganda to a new level " (Mr. Foxman, what > is the > Arab World? Alan Dershowitz in his "Chutzpah" says the > basis > of bigotry is "overgeneralization," so where is the > "Arab > World"? Is Detroit included? Asscraft thinks so. > > Earlier the press release mentions "the Muslim > World" does that include Lyons Ave., Newark? But then > from "Anti-Semitism" the release goes to Israel, not > Jews, > and Israeli Mossad as those victimized. So they fight > Anti > Semitism mainly by "defending" Israel. In fact they > defend > Israel like Joe McCarthy "defended" the US against > Communism. > Included in my package is a communiqué from an Israeli > Peace > Organization ": Gush Shalom", "Israeli Peace Block > (see > Defamation from the Anti Defamation League Answered" > (info@g...) This was first published 7/11/2000 as > a press release. "In the past 24 hours, an attack is > being > mounted against Gush Shalom. Knesset Member Collette > Avital > (Labor) has actually lodge a complaint with the > police, > claiming that cartoons presented on our website > constitute "incitement". And the powerful American > Jewish > organization Anti -Defamation League found time, even > on > election day, over there, to disseminate a message of > defamation against "Gush Shalom", which already > resulted in > hate e mails being sent our address". > > In a following message signed by Adam Keller Gush, > Shalom Spokesperson. The organization defends itself > from an > ADL press releases "expressing outrage at Gush > Shalom's > portrayal of Prime Minster Barak as a killer of > Palestinian > children in a caricature on its web site, stating that > the > image of Barak standing on the bleeding bullet ridden > body of > a Palestinian child is abhorrent." Gush Shalom > replies, > "Still after consulting with my fellow activists I am > in a > position to make an offer. Should a complete week - > seven > days pass in which not a single unarmed Palestinian is > killed > by the Israeli armed forces which are answerable to > Mr. > Barak, we would remove the above mentioned cartoon > from our > website. > > The Gush Shalom statement ends "As for the ADL- an > organization which claims to "counter hatred prejudice > and > bigotry" can you truly find no other places to search > for > such, with Israeli society in its present condition, > except > at our modest website. Was the ADL attacking these > Israelis > for being Anti Semitic or criticizing rather > forcefully the > continuous murder of the Palestinians. So in Israel > itself, > ADL is still covering for and attacking anyone, even > Israeli > citizens themselves who oppose the Bush Zionist Plan > to de- > Palestinianize Palestine! > > Another communication from Israe(robertoj69@y...): > This signed by 95 Israeli Academics (copy included in > pkg), > Sept 23, 2002 that begins "URGENT WARNING: THE ISRAELI > GOVERNMENT MAY BE CONTEMPLATING CRIMES AGAINST > HUMANITY" It > goes on, "We members of the Israeli academe are > horrified by > US buildup of aggression towards Iraq and by the > Israeli > political leadership's enthusiastic support of it. We > are > deeply worried by indications that the "fog of war" > could be > exploited by the Israeli government to commit further > crimes > against the Palestinian people, up to full-fledged > ethnic > cleansing." > > One striking description of the Israeli Military by > these professors is that in an interview found in > Ha'aretz > Sept 19, 2002, Israeli Chief of Staff Moshe Ya'alon > describe > the Palestinians as a "cancerous manifestation" and > equated > the military actions in the Occupied territories with > "chemotherapy". Certainly the ADL will have to go > after > these "Anti Semites" using the "Big Lie" and "Spewing > Anti- > Semitic Venom"! And the growing list of progressive > democratic people around the world who will have > opinions > about Israel and Political Zionism independent of the > ADL, > the ADL will have to attack and slander them as well > > I challenge the ADL to set up a national television > program so that we might debate this issue. We can > project > the poem on a wall and go down line by new and discuss > it. If > not that then why not a forum or debate some place > like NYC > Town Hall or at Symphony Hall in Newark. Why not take > a > survey of those who heard the poem at the Dodge > Festival? > Those who registered and the students brought by > schools > could be contacted and a survey taken to reflect just > the > majority of people hearing the poem thought, not just > some > shadowy surrogates of Imperialism who are trying to > convince > people that I and my poem are the enemy not US and > Israeli > Imperialism. > > I have already gotten a great many communications > praising the poem. A great many E-mail letters and > phone > calls not only praising the poem, and the poet for > writing > it, but also opposing the attempt to violate my first > amendment rights by this oft repeated ADL skin game of > calling critics of imperialism Anti Semites. I have > already > said, in answer to what Governor McGreevey is quoted > as > demanding that I apologize and that I resign as NJ > Poet > Laureate. And I have said repeatedly that I will do > neither. > > It is unfortunate that Governor McGreevey has been > stampeded by paid liars, and apologists for ethnic > cleansing > and white supremacy, bourgeois nationalists and the > dangerously ignorant, to be panicked into joining in > the > ADL's slander, belittling my intelligence, and > insulting not > only my person, my family, my fellow artists and > activists > who know all this is just the feces of a very small > cow. But > they are also attacking my work in the arts and my > social > political views. By demanding that I apologize to Evil > and > Submit to some fundamentally racist and politically > motivated > call for me to resign as New Jersey's Poet Laureate, > he is > insulting the broad group of people who know he is > incorrect > and who have read and celebrated and valued my work. > And that > is a grave mistake, one I am hoping he will correct. > > "Somebody Blew Up America!" was written Oct 1, 2001. A > month after the terror attack. Almost immediately I > circulated it around the world on the Internet. In > addition, > I have read this poem in Spain, Portugal, Africa, > Switzerland, > Italy, Finland and it was translated into German and > read on > German radio, at Universities and other venues across > this > country. It has become one of the most circulated of > my > poems. Yet it was not until I read the poem at the > Dodge > Poetry Festival that I got negative response from > three > people that I know of. The overwhelming response was > an > almost thunderous applause. I even had to come out and > take a > second bow at one performance. So why now and Who, as > the > poem asks, is behind it? Perhaps the forces which have > dishonestly tried to characterize the poem as "venom" > or > merely "a harangue" (just as they called John > Coltrane's > music "Barbaric Yawps") are simply, the Charlie > McCarthy > voices for Bush & Sharon's Edgar Bergen's. > Empty-headed > devilish dummies constructed of wood and painted and > costumed to look like it is real people speaking, when > all > the time it is imperialism is the ventriloquist > speaking > through their mouths. > > NO, I WILL NOT APOLOGIZE, I WILL NOT RESIGN. In fact > I will continue to do what I have appointed to do but > still > have not been paid to do. Publicize and Popularize > poetry and > poets throughout this state. To set up new venues and > new > networks for poetry reading and workshops, in the > state's > libraries and schools and other institutions. > Hopefully > initiated and given paradigm right here in the Newark > Public > Library, its branches and throughout the school > system. > Therefore giving more of our citizens access to > poetry, > involving poets of all nationalities, both male and > female, > of diverse experience and styles. I have already begun > to > enlist coordinators of poetry programs throughout the > state, > so that we can network a tour of poets, hopefully > beginning > in January, throughout the state. > > To do this I will be approaching local, county, > state, federal and private funding. And expand our > budget > with the cooperation of these other existing programs. > We > will ask that poets POET-ON! That they begin to > produce at > least one poem or publish a poem monthly, in the most > modest > forms, Kinko style, and give them away if they have > to. That > they begin to set up readings not only in the places > we > mentioned but also in parks and restaurants and in > neighborhoods. > > We say this because we feel that this state and > indeed this nation and this world is desperately in > need of > the deepest and most profound human values that poetry > can > teach. That is what Keats and Du Bois called for the > poet to > do, to bring Truth and Beauty. To be like the most > ancient > paradigmythic image of the poet. To be like Osiris and > Orpheus, whose job it was to raise the Sun each > morning with > song and story. To illuminate the human mind, and > bring light > into the world. > > POET ON! > Read it for yourself. > > SOMEBODY BLEW UP AMERICA > http://www.themarcusgarveybbs.com/board/msgs/10788.html > by Amiri Baraka > > > > > > ===== > "Revolution is not like cricket, not even one day cricket" > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Everything you'll ever need on one web page > from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts > http://uk.my.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 20:37:53 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MWP Subject: Re: 20 Sonnets In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 10/14/02 7:13 PM, Jim Behrle at tinaiskingofmonsterisland@HOTMAIL.COM wrote: > My sonnets are a sequence written across 14 line fields. The first 100 were > written between my birthday and opening day this year, and the subsequent 20 > are a bit like b-sides. I'd like to write 1000, I think, but have moved > onto different projects. I'm not sure that its meaningful or necessary, at > least for me, to follow the rules of traditional sonnets. If I drive a > Hyundai and call it a Camaro, hey, life's short. > > --Jim Behrle > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx Thanks! I sincerely appreciate that explication, JB. I knew there was a 14-line connection lurking in there someplace, but couldn't quite figure it out. And so prolific - wow! What is it about the writing of sonnets that is so addictive? -m ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 07:07:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: michael ceraolo Subject: Re: inside/outside the academy In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii You should be careful with the name-calling. You should know that every state has different labor laws; here in Ohio adjunct professors are prohibited by law from organizing. Michael Murat Nemet-Nejat wrote:In a message dated 10/12/02 1:13:11 PM, joe.amato@COLORADO.EDU writes: >but when you compare adjunct teachers in academe to "scabs," well >that really gets my goat, murat... and i'm probably as pro-collective >bargaining as you're gonna find in these parts... there are so many >reasons why that's just not so (never mind a closer interrogation of >"scab")---and to suggest as much does a great disservice to that >exploited class of laborers upon which so many campuses have come to >rely (and as a matter of full disclosure, i've worked as such a >"scab," and my partner kass fleisher has been a "scab" in such terms >for 15 years now---and my dad was a union steward... so this really >really strikes a nerve in me)... Joe, I did not intend to insult anyone; I am sorry the word "scab" insulted anyone, and I can understand why it might. A lot of poets I admire work as adjuncts; so did at one point my wife. Still, it is a sharp way of saying something relevant. In a strike or lock out the management is fighting no to give some economic advantages to labor (either pay raises or working conditions or benefits or hire and fire practices). The management historically fought these demands (after the use of the police became less rampant) by hiring people who are desperate enough to accepts the management's conditions. That's why insisting on all the workers in a given industry being union is important though that might ossify into its own difficulties. In the present university system, it seems to me, there are two levels of teacher/workers. Those who are tenured and the adjuncts, who can be discontinued any time, who get paid less, with less benefits, etc., and, very crucial, with very little chance of any advancement. You know the sorry story better than me. The universities have essentially achieved what others industries have always fought for. My real frustration is with those with more substantial positions (a chair, etc.) If those people took chances, insisted on a more equitable arrangement, something may happen. Universities need those big names (if nothing but image purposes). If they refuse to work under those circumstances, the university must respond. I wrote a post to the List along these lines a few years ago. It seems to me the academic community as a whole show little class consciousness (the economic consequences of their behavior) even though many hold left leaning opinions. Murat --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 01:48:03 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: 0000000-0002374 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII 0000000-0002374 0000000 005012 060555 064553 063556 067040 020157 064544 063146 0000020 071145 067145 062543 073440 060550 071564 062557 062566 0000040 026162 072040 062550 062563 066440 071551 064563 062566 0000060 020163 063157 060440 071542 066157 072165 067551 026156 0000100 060440 020163 063151 071012 061545 070165 071145 072141 0000120 062145 020054 020141 067555 062555 072156 067440 020162 0000140 067555 062562 020054 063157 067440 062162 067151 071141 0000160 020171 064554 062546 020054 064164 020145 060542 072164 0000200 071145 062145 070040 073557 071145 020163 063157 070012 0000220 071145 067546 066562 072141 073151 020145 060554 063556 0000240 060565 062547 020054 071143 060545 064564 067157 063040 0000260 067562 020155 064164 020145 072163 071141 020164 020055 0000300 064164 020145 060550 067566 020143 067543 062555 020163 0000320 071146 066557 062412 071554 073545 062550 062562 020054 0000340 064164 020145 066142 061557 026553 060560 065543 063541 0000360 071545 067440 020146 062564 072170 026563 063157 072055 0000400 072562 064164 020054 064164 020145 071164 062565 071055 0000420 060545 020154 062564 072170 020163 071146 066557 073412 0000440 064550 064143 072040 062550 062562 064440 020163 067556 0000460 062440 061563 070141 026145 060440 067560 060543 074554 0000500 072160 061551 071440 064550 072146 067151 020147 020055 0000520 072151 071447 064440 020156 072557 020162 060556 072564 0000540 062562 072040 005157 067550 062560 072040 060550 020164 0000560 071160 074541 071145 026440 071440 070165 066160 061551 0000600 072141 067551 020156 020055 064164 072141 060440 062040 0000620 063151 062546 062562 061556 020145 071551 066440 062141 0000640 020145 064567 064164 072440 072164 071145 067141 062543 0000660 026412 064440 020156 060546 072143 064440 020164 060555 0000700 062553 020163 067556 062040 063151 062546 062562 061556 0000720 020145 064167 072141 067563 073145 071145 026440 072040 0000740 064550 063556 020163 062562 060555 067151 061040 072562 0000760 060564 066154 020171 064564 062145 072012 020157 072563 0001000 071542 060564 061556 020145 020055 062567 070040 062562 0001020 064544 072143 060440 062156 070040 060554 020171 020055 0001040 020151 071167 072151 020145 071541 064440 020146 064164 0001060 071145 023545 020163 067556 072040 066557 071157 067562 0001100 020167 005055 071541 064440 020146 064164 071551 064440 0001120 020163 064164 020145 060554 072163 066440 071551 064563 0001140 062566 020054 064164 020145 060554 072163 066440 071551 0001160 064563 062554 026440 060440 020163 063151 072040 064550 0001200 020163 071551 072040 062550 066040 071541 005164 071160 0001220 073157 061557 072141 067551 020156 005055 030012 030060 0001240 030461 030066 020040 033060 032464 031466 030040 031066 0001260 032465 020064 031060 032066 030064 030040 030066 032064 0001300 020060 031060 030460 031466 030040 031466 032461 020061 0001320 033460 030062 030064 030040 032066 032465 045060 072145 0001340 074564 005040 030060 030460 030062 020060 030040 030062 0001360 033061 020063 033460 032461 030465 030040 031067 032060 0001400 020060 033060 032462 030065 030040 033066 032060 020060 0001420 033460 032461 030464 030040 032460 033061 020064 033460 0001440 030461 030066 020040 024040 030065 034471 020051 030012 0001460 030060 031061 030062 020040 033460 030463 033465 030040 0001500 030466 032465 020067 033460 030462 030464 030040 033466 0001520 032465 020061 031060 030460 033065 030040 032460 032460 0001540 020065 033060 032061 031061 030040 030067 032061 071061 making no difference whatsoever, these missives of absolution, as if recuperated, a moment or more, of ordinary life, the battered powers of performative language, creation from the start - the havoc comes from elsewhere, the block-packages of texts-of-truth, the true-real texts from which there is no escape, apocalyptic shifting - it's in our nature to hope that prayer - supplication - that a difference is made with utterance - in fact it makes no difference whatsoever - things remain brutally tied to substance - we predict and play - i write as if there's no tomorrow - as if this is the last missive, the last missile - as if this is the last provocation - 0001240 072151 066141 063040 066151 071554 072040 062550 064440 error capital fills the interstices - tunnels beneath the streets - email tags and headers - sewage capital - finally bringing weapons to the foreground - fighting back is useless - at this point, weaponry accumulates - anthrax plus anthrax = anthrax; bomb plus bomb = bomb - it's boolean at the heart of it - 0001560 073545 020163 020040 020040 020040 020040 030012 030060 0001600 031061 030064 020040 033460 030462 030465 030040 033066 0001620 032061 020061 033060 030063 030064 030040 033066 032461 0001640 020061 033460 032461 032065 030040 031067 032060 020060 0001660 033060 032462 030065 030040 032066 032064 005060 071145 0001700 067562 020162 005012 060543 064560 060564 020154 064546 0001720 066154 020163 064164 020145 067151 062564 071562 064564 0001740 062543 020163 020055 072564 067156 066145 020163 062542 0001760 062556 072141 020150 064164 020145 072163 062562 072145 0002000 020163 020055 066545 064541 020154 060564 071547 005040 0002020 067141 020144 062550 062141 071145 020163 020055 062563 0002040 060567 062547 061440 070141 072151 066141 026440 063040 0002060 067151 066141 074554 061040 064562 063556 067151 020147 0002100 062567 070141 067157 020163 067564 072040 062550 063040 0002120 071157 063545 067562 067165 020144 026412 063040 063551 0002140 072150 067151 020147 060542 065543 064440 020163 071565 0002160 066145 071545 020163 020055 072141 072040 064550 020163 0002200 067560 067151 026164 073440 060545 067560 071156 020171 0002220 061541 072543 072555 060554 062564 020163 020055 067141 0002240 064164 060562 020170 070012 072554 020163 067141 064164 0002260 060562 020170 020075 067141 064164 060562 035570 061040 0002300 066557 020142 066160 071565 061040 066557 020142 020075 0002320 067542 061155 026440 064440 023564 020163 067542 066157 0002340 060545 020156 072141 072040 062550 064040 060545 072162 0002360 005040 063157 064440 020164 005055 005012 0002374 bang we're dead === ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 23:59:22 -0400 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: Bobbie Louise Hawkins at Joe's Pub... 10 bucks..2 drink min...a south texas colette...gosh damn...was that Anne, Bob. Pen, Hettie, Simon & many beards i dindn't recognize..damn....too dark to see any clothes..& the two beers...never throws anything out...waiting for the moment to Recherche du Temps...i'm sure is Perdu... damn the yrs pass...Bobbie as the most gorgeous of the century on U.B campus..& John Weiners .. sz he was in luv with Bob....innozent me in love with Litterat.........my first menmory of America in the same building...HIAS...how the perdu passes... gorgeoso as ever...were i younger....were were i were i were i...she rd out of notebook clear stream of clear texas waters.....i'm not complaining..hide the politics under a Bush & let the Bass memoirs flow.....DRn... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 07:31:16 -0400 Reply-To: ron.silliman@gte.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Subject: Of late on the blog Comments: cc: pewarts@mindspring.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Boontling, bubblers and a dialect survey Two masters of vocabulary: Forrest Gander & H.D. Conservative poetry that truly rocks - Annie Finch's *Calendars* "The asyntactical tactics of Language poetry" and other myths A Philadelphia progressive poetry calendar Tan Lin's *Lotion Bullwhip Giraffe* Problems of the *New American Poetry* Eliot Weinberger on the Allen anthology http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 23:22:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rebecca Wolff Subject: Fence 10 and Fence Books Contests Comments: To: rebeccafence@earthlink.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Herewith announcing the release of Fence 10, Fall/Winter 2002-2003. Please subscribe now! at http://www.fencemag.com This gorgeous issue features: Poetry by, among others Marjorie Welish, Kenneth Koch, Garrett Kalleberg, Jordan Davis, Amina Calil, Norma Cole, Elizabeth Fodaski, Steve Healey , Christopher Janke, Monica Ferrell, Tracy Philpot, Andrew Zawacki, James Galvin, Jeffrey Croteau, Devin Johnston, Peter Gizzi, Leonard Brink, Alice Notley, Ander Monson, Tomaz Salamun, and Anne Carson And fiction by Sam Lipsyte, Paul Maliszewski, Paul LaFarge, Joe Wenderoth, and Julia Holmes A piece by David Antin And "Beautiful on the Inside," a special painting feature by Adam Hurwitz Plus: Visit the Fence Books site at http://www.fencebooks.com for complete guidelines and required entry forms to our two book contests, the Alberta Prize (postmark deadline November 1-30, 2002) and the Fence Modern Poets Series (postmark deadline February 1-30, 2003). You can download them from the site or send an SASE as directed in the guidelines. Thanks, and remember to crush President Bush's tiny head between your fingers every time you see him. And to let me know if you'd like to "unsubscribe" by replying with a message with that subject heading. ********** Rebecca Wolff Fence et al. 14 Fifth Avenue, #1A New York, NY 10011 http://www.fencemag.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 16:29:28 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Wystan Curnow (FOA ENG)" Subject: Re: women in TNAP: Sylvia Plath MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Aw, come on. Least Sexton had a band. Wystan -----Original Message----- From: J Gallaher [mailto:Gallaher@MAIL.UCA.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, 15 October 2002 2:48 a.m. To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: women in TNAP: Sylvia Plath Rachel Loden writes: I Add 2 cents, in agreement: The problem with poets who have both talent and a cult of personality is that the two become hard to unweave . . . so the talent tends to get swamped in the personality. At least that's true with Plath, as she remains THE one poet that many people know, or know of. Works well for her name recognition, but doesn't help her poems one bit. And several are worth knowing. Even a HUGE, overtaught one like "Daddy." On the other hand, I think Sexton is just plain awful. Blather, in fact. Best, JG ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 05:17:31 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: Plath, pity-parties, women in NAP MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This was rejected yesterday. . . > I did appreciate something in Plath way back when we were first > encountering her dramatic career, and that was that she could really > handle that short line. I didnt care for all the self-pity, but I > thought the voice was pretty sure. Thanks, George, good to know, esp. about the short lines. My own allergy to the whole morbid circus that followed Plath's death has kept me away from her for decades. It's only reading others on her work, actually, that took me back. And then I remembered that I had learned a lot from her--and I don't mean from her content but from the suppleness of her lines, her music. Of course, as Maria mentions, she would never have fit into the Allen anth. But that doesn't explain, say, Diane di Prima's absence. Or some others. As for pity-parties, though, Wieners is right in there (as Kevin says), getting the shindig started. But his self-pity comes off as faded grandeur. And somehow we love him for it. Odd. Rachel ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 08:14:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: looking for Edwin Torres (sorry) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" kasey! we luv u! At 6:03 PM -0700 10/14/02, K. Silem Mohammad wrote: >Sorry for posting that last message to the entire list. And sorry for >wasting even more list time with this apology. Sorry for just generally >being lame. Sorry, my dear departed mum, for all the pain I must have >caused you in childbirth. Sorry.... > >Kasey -- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 03:51:25 -0400 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Pavement Saw Press Subject: Re: Indentations Upon Indentations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear --m The first poet to indent in this currently silly, but once astute manner which later was dubbed "field" was French. This should not be surprising as all innovative items, even terms such as "avante guarde" itself, were invented by the French. In the recent hoax letter purportedly sent from the UN by Alicia notice how it seems more real because the first twenty three people are from France, further proof of all things originating from France. Many poets have realized and mined this truth, M. Palmer, for example, exploits this fold by naming an experimental work Baudelaire series. Mallarme was the poet progenitor of the field, Un coupe de des jamais n'abolira le hasard, the poem. The poem is not A THROW OF THE DICE NEVER WILL ABOLISH CHANCE as Richard would have you believe, as this is merely a substitute, even if performed by a man named Pierre, a translation into an inferior language. As a French Indian I have been accused of being avant guard but only 50% of the time as the rest of me is narrative. I am so tired of bears and feathers. Field is a journal in Ohio which was experimental, but similar to the situation with Bob Hass' Field Notes, once removed from the sideline construct, it was found to be only a human wish of something more than ordinary. A relative of mine, Jacques, is a famous film star, another a well known vampire. Since vampires are a derivative of the dandy and pierrot this explains their coolness, that French Connection. Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus OH 43206 USA http://pavementsaw.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 10:10:44 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: roger.day@GLOBALGRAPHICS.COM Subject: academicals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline I know we sometimes get a breakdown of the list membership by nationality - I was wondering if an equivalent execercise could be done via email domain? .edu, .com etc? Not that it would shine a light on any particular corner, just mildly curious. Roger ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 07:14:19 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Jullich Subject: Re: From the horse's mouth MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mairead Byrne wrote: > Dear Kevin, could you go back for dessert and ask him his opinion of May Swenson? . . . Just tell me about the dessert. If they have dessert at Benihana. Mairead Dessert Ice Cream 2.50 Sherbet 2.50 Tempura Ice Cream 3.99 Banana Tempura 3.99 Kakigori (Japanese Sundae) 4.50 Specialty Benihana Assortment Prepared Locally 3.99 http://www.benihanasak.com/menupage3.htm -------------------------------------------------- Dessert Green Tea Ice Cream A creamy textured Japanese ice cream with a subtle surprising flavour of macha £3.50 Vanilla Ice Cream Made with fresh whole milk and cream £2.50 Orange Sorbet £2.50 Specialities Cheesecake a la Benihana Creme Caramel £4.50 Seasonal Fruits £4.50 http://www.benihana.co.uk/menus/individual/individual.html#DESSERTS ----------------------------------------- Dessert: Azuki Red Bean ice cream. http://www.seattleinsider.com/auto_docs/dining/4468.html ------------------------------------------ Try the Ginger Ice Cream or Tangerine Sherbet ($2.25) http://www.hotelspree.com/detail/Las_Vegas/NV/USA/169391/ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 10:36:03 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Magee/Gevirtz read in Buffalo In-Reply-To: from "Stephen Vincent" at Oct 14, 2002 05:01:03 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howdy folks, I'm guessing news of this will go out but I thought I'd mention that I'll be reading with Susan Gevirtz this wednesday. If you're in Buffalo, can't wait to see you! If you're not, well, come to Buffalo! -m. Susan Gevirtz Michael Magee Poetry Reading Weds., Oct. 16, 4pm; CFA Screening Room Michael Magee Lecture: "Pragmatism, Jazz, and the American Vernacular" Fri., Oct. 18, 12:30pm; 436 Clemens Susan Gevirtz is the author of Hourglass Transcripts (Burning Deck, 2001), Spelt, a collaboration with Myung Mi Kim (a+bend press, 1999); Black Box Cutaway (Kelsey Street Press, 1999), Linen Minus, and Narrative's Journey: The Fiction and Film Writing of Dorothy Richardson (Peter Lang, 1996). She teaches in the creative writing program at San Fransciso State. Read on-line her Domino: Point of Entry, from UB's Leave Books. Michael Magee is the editor of Combo and author of MS and Morning Constitutional. His essays address pragmatism and poetics. Magee teaches at the Rhode Island School of Design. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 11:05:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mairead Byrne Subject: Re: From the horse's mouth Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Disposition: inline Hey thank you! This reminds me of Ander Monson's great poem "Index" in the current issue of Conduit. Sometimes subject matter just has to be corseted, or asbestos-gloved. I particularly like the prices here. Mairead >>> jeffreyjullich@YAHOO.COM 10/15/02 10:54 AM >>> Dessert Ice Cream 2.50 Sherbet 2.50 Tempura Ice Cream 3.99 Banana Tempura 3.99 Kakigori (Japanese Sundae) 4.50 Specialty Benihana Assortment Prepared Locally 3.99 http://www.benihanasak.com/menupage3.htm -------------------------------------------------- Dessert Green Tea Ice Cream A creamy textured Japanese ice cream with a subtle surprising flavour of macha £3.50 Vanilla Ice Cream Made with fresh whole milk and cream £2.50 Orange Sorbet £2.50 Specialities Cheesecake a la Benihana Creme Caramel £4.50 Seasonal Fruits £4.50 http://www.benihana.co.uk/menus/individual/individual.html#DESSERTS ----------------------------------------- Dessert: Azuki Red Bean ice cream. http://www.seattleinsider.com/auto_docs/dining/4468.html ------------------------------------------ Try the Ginger Ice Cream or Tangerine Sherbet ($2.25) http://www.hotelspree.com/detail/Las_Vegas/NV/USA/169391/ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 08:59:39 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: inside/outside the academy In-Reply-To: <8b.1f8e0345.2adcc095@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" murat, i think the analogy is way off though---in what sense does a professorial position constitute (with or w/o tenure) a managerial position?... the blurring comes in with administrators (chairs, some deans) who teach, yes, and who manage staff... but in point of fact i don't "manage" a workforce (my students? no way!... staff? not unless i'm in an admin slot of sorts, again, such as grad director)... so where is the comparison to (say) the management ranks one finds in fortune 1000?... and then of course we *have* an actual educational administration on every campus, which asssociated duties are quite a bit different than the sorts of bureaucratic duties most faculty are immersed in (which turn largely on faculty governance issues at the outside, and dept. and curricular issues on the inside)... as to lock-out, again, i can't see it... first off, many adjuncts (such as kass here) have a course-by-course contract (it's not even yearly, would that it were!)... secondly, not renewing someone's contract turns on any number of factors, and is about as capricious as it gets---one evil of the system is that it's set up to work this way, w/zero commitment to such workers... someone goes on leave, we need another adjunct faculty member, e.g... this latter scenario, which sounds innocent enough on the surface, becomes a model of exploitation for campuses that wish to control their labor force with a heavy hand (grad student labor can be much the same, but here again, adjuncts are treated a notch below even ta's)... visiting positions are another thing---that term, "visiting," always makes me chuckle btw (having been a visiting, on a wing and a prayer)---but the way adjunct labor can be moved around at whim is a sight to behold... if they're being "locked out," in any case, then i'd say adjuncts had best unionize, if only to fulfill the analogy!... i'd say much the same for profs, who could stand to profit from collective bargaining---but again, academics need first to think of themselves as *workers*... i understand how adjunct labor can be a "nice" thing for folks who wish to do part-time teaching, yes... but in point of fact there are a number of such workers out there who are hoping against hope that this will be their way into a full-time job---and they're being encouraged to believe so at every rung of the academic ladder, to phd and beyond... no question it's a knotty issue, but i think we really must bring to it some clearcut thinking about what's ethically right, and wrong, in said workplace... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 08:04:14 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: please pass the salt too In-Reply-To: <200210070130.g971Uwx16665@webmail2.speakeasy.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v546) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit please pass the salt too bear no responsibility, make atomic detonations blast Zones, Air Pressure Detonators ----------------- Plutonium , Uranium-238, what's best for your money? -- the information on how to bubbles two fragments; 1.) the nucleus (central mass) 4). Blast Damage ------------------ Everything flammable burns. People burn.[See chart below] In fact, the "Blast-O-Mactic" brand is the best for your money -- One Trident Nuclear Fission/Nuclear Fusion/ Fission (H-Bomb) is a three part sub-atomic vibration of Krypton. NEXT MONTH'S COLUMN the `missing' section of three miles away. History Lead Shields and how the fireball began. We here at "Fat Man," destroy 90% fatalities. at a relatively high cost Photos available. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 11:16:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: "If" "I" "were" "running" "a conference" In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v543) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (this is coming from the viewpoint of having living, working, teaching, & struggling inside of a decentralized anarchist & collective landscape populated largely by young folks who are nomadic & have made life choices which do not have post-grad degrees, teaching in institutions, & retirement as motivations for their paths in life.) "If" "I" "were" "running" "a conference" 1/ TTTTTTThere would be no superstars. 2/ AAAAAAAny gathering of differing viewpoints, no matter the context, would be self-facilitating, with particular attention paid to close listening, to representing the accumulation of experience & wisdom. speaking louder, faster, or more aggressively would not be the bottomline for being heard. 3/ IIIIIIIdeas would be dynamic & useful conceptual trampolines from which participants could cut & paste according to their needs & desires. Ideas would not be precious cultural artifacts frozen in time & place, traded like so many hog futures on the chicago stock exchange. 4/ IIIIIIn my community, gatherings are organized with notions of networking & information exchange front & center, organized around an urgent sense of breeding each our independent concerns in a collective assemblage. The academic conferences I've been to also have this thirst for such activity, but it always seems to be over beers & coffee before & after the event itself. Id be willing to bet that this is truly what a lot of the veteran conference junkies consistently find to be the most useful & memorable. 5/ TTTTTTThe life of thot would not be extracted & examined only in a way which removes the consequences of our assumptions & beliefs from what it actually takes to survive on day-to-day basis. There is much to be learned from cooking & eating with people, from involving our own children in these practices which we consider to be so dear, from dematerializing the borders between work & play. Examples are numerous & the point is that the operating codes of the conference as we know it (or at least how I've experienced it in the dozen or so conferences I've been to in my lifetime) seem to be a very static & deeply troubling roadblock for genuine discourse in a world that includes more than the university itself. Being at such an event is a constant reminder why I see so many young people looking elsewhere for a more gestural & cocreative praxis. mIEKAL mIEKAL aND memexikon@mwt.net | ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 12:44:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: "If" "I" "were" "running" "a conference" In-Reply-To: <6B327346-E059-11D6-9E3E-0003935A5BDA@mwt.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" this is a fantastic post. i will copy it to friends who are planning conferences. At 11:16 AM -0500 10/15/02, mIEKAL aND wrote: >(this is coming from the viewpoint of having living, working, teaching, >& struggling inside of a decentralized anarchist & collective landscape >populated largely by young folks who are nomadic & have made life >choices which do not have post-grad degrees, teaching in institutions, >& retirement as motivations for their paths in life.) > > "If" "I" "were" "running" "a conference" > >1/ TTTTTTThere would be no superstars. > >2/ AAAAAAAny gathering of differing viewpoints, no matter the context, >would be self-facilitating, with particular attention paid to close >listening, to representing the accumulation of experience & wisdom. >speaking louder, faster, or more aggressively would not be the >bottomline for being heard. > >3/ IIIIIIIdeas would be dynamic & useful conceptual trampolines from >which participants could cut & paste according to their needs & >desires. Ideas would not be precious cultural artifacts frozen in time >& place, traded like so many hog futures on the chicago stock exchange. > >4/ IIIIIIn my community, gatherings are organized with notions of >networking & information exchange front & center, organized around an >urgent sense of breeding each our independent concerns in a collective >assemblage. The academic conferences I've been to also have this >thirst for such activity, but it always seems to be over beers & coffee >before & after the event itself. Id be willing to bet that this is >truly what a lot of the veteran conference junkies consistently find to >be the most useful & memorable. > >5/ TTTTTTThe life of thot would not be extracted & examined only in a >way which removes the consequences of our assumptions & beliefs from >what it actually takes to survive on day-to-day basis. There is much >to be learned from cooking & eating with people, from involving our own >children in these practices which we consider to be so dear, from >dematerializing the borders between work & play. Examples are numerous >& the point is that the operating codes of the conference as we know it >(or at least how I've experienced it in the dozen or so conferences >I've been to in my lifetime) seem to be a very static & deeply >troubling roadblock for genuine discourse in a world that includes more >than the university itself. Being at such an event is a constant >reminder why I see so many young people looking elsewhere for a more >gestural & cocreative praxis. > >mIEKAL > > >mIEKAL aND >memexikon@mwt.net > | -- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 10:02:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: short sorry In-Reply-To: <6B327346-E059-11D6-9E3E-0003935A5BDA@mwt.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v546) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable short sorry =93Now,=94 or never or cant be.... =93this question=94, that =93was = easy=94, maybe=20 two easys for the price of one, I remember when it wasn't the other day=20= and there was someone over there, right on that spot, it was one of=20 those lead moments, =93a day in the life=94 or written as if an owners=20= manual. =93Built for=94, constructed by and here to serve the ones we = all=20 love =93an obvious member=94, but the wrong number dialed twice, =91is = this .=20 . .?=92 =91no and don't you ever call again,=92 or it was the right = number in=20 reverse, 27.4 million pounds of distorted meat, instead of destroyed=20 meat, in reverse, =93considering the Order=94 which was arbitrary and=20 completely without any proper neck ware but a call to order of the =93of=20= the Tribe of Elevation.=94 with a cleaver and a gnat of verbs we all=20 mounted the block print backward and, =93As it was considered an=20 underscore=94 drove the rest into the lot of mirth, . . . glory be to=20= the hello hall and be the mighty spirit of gracho marx prevent us from=20= and repeat syntax armageddon =93of The Good Life Society est.=94 to have=20= existed some where just about here not long after the other ones came=20 and left, claiming to have invited the =934=94=92 =9333=94=92 of silence = long=20 before the john cage fraternal order came to own all silence. =94AD.=94=20= initio. =93and I=94 and before that =93came=94 the esp., et al=92s and = fac that=20 we are all cond col of the crt so nb thegigo dacrim cpiauxbf mfa=92s = and=20 tgif Lt=92s who freq frwy=92s and fx env=92s =93to grip=94 =93s=94t = =93wit=94 here to=20 and =93it.=94 =93Wit.=94 wit or without it, =93It was something fit for=94= a bit-o=20 dinner for four or a chicken pot pie make for =93the clan=94=92s voodoo=20= hoodo, after =93of=94 =93 which the Four Horseless=94, all taxi drivers = stood =20 and looked at all the =93Wonders.=94 =93As=94 if one was the others = assumption=20 that was made =93they opposed=94 anything to do the the answer =91all of = the=20 above=92 so the Lords, and ladies of the near east end stopped doing = drag=20 , and became other peoples people and sat and wondered =93of the Comet=20= and=94 other parts. =93the fall=94 came much much later, =93of=94ten as = a=20 reminder of =93the empire.=94 stokesout, part 50. =93I came to grips.=94 at around age ten or so, maybe a line of a=20 different order, it was during the moon landing =93& messiness was=20 understood=94 as something dirty, something you only do if you are sick=20= and caught in deep clots of blood =93as almost important=94 as the real=20= answer. =93The answer=94 to my future blindness should have been be=20 foretold not by tea leafs sent =93to the Brigader=94 of family matters, = and=20 =93Everlasting.=94 demigod on my block, but by the hair on my hand. =93The= =20 House=94 was silent, as I would show up for dinner and try to hide my=20 hands and have trouble opening the cans =93of Armore=94 condolence ham. = or=20 the time we all went to =93The King of=94 burgers and every one stared = as I=20 put mustard on my thing, it was as if I was king =93Kong Co-op=94 of all=20= mines, waiting for fay ray. =93The way=94 I got help was when on these=20= special day =93the letter=94 of all letters =93arrives and we=94 or I, = depends=20 on the moment =93opened them=94 it depends on the moment, and =93almost=94= as=20 I could =93quickly=94 say; =91sei nicht so grausam, bleib.=92 something = else=20 was to happen as =93though I admit=94 now how =93quickly=94 it =93sounded = like=94:=20 fuhrt mich nich in versuchung . . .=92 I meant get the =94quicksilver=94=20= tooth brush =93and our=94 souls will be saved. at that moment =93bikes = fell=94,=20 I jumped =93apart=94 from the rest, =93quite easily=94 I might add. = =93This was=20 the question=94 I had =93alluded to. It was=94 as =93easy=94 as = nichts..= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 19:23:36 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lakey Teasdale Subject: endure. An: interpretation(s) follow(s) Comments: To: "WRYTING-L : Writing and Theory across Disciplines" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable endure. An: interpretation(s) follow(s) 1. and measure oooooooooor call it a name: en-du-rance julio used to say: it is between the borders of what is possible to suffer. the insufferable. why not? or call it obsession as good as any other sure beats all fuck out of nirvana. and/or gravity combined. or the pitiful interpretation. For shame. Sad. That. and sits quietly nursing a the- ory to be cut like the pie.=20 and measuring two roods and ten poles or thereby Imperial Measure lying in the Parish of Evie and=20 being the subjects described scientifically if lacking.=20 Compassion costs nothing. 2. Lucy came by and we took a walk she having survived the organ recital & her heart remains strong the bypass performed by the Wizard of Oz so she said we overtook a cyclist & two her (great- great- great- great-way back) aunt was Hung. as a Witch. in Salem and hung the spinster from the neck. until.=20 She missed the = pie 3. not to be endured. Endures. There is every distinction. Endures. and so is. Endures and continues. Endures. and one can. he is and so. Am? Are you not? 4. not 'having endured' rather: having. why not? just having. but don't leave it at that. Endures and continues. it lasts. The course. lasted seven courses. And then some. You never actually know another until you know an other. Now you know & eat soup. Hot soup. Rich, thick, creamy. 5. a lot less spontaneous or than that which the=20 pattern. Lost. Lost in=20 6. And you know he saved bread. and the butter. For later. How is it possible, given that, that you missed out the rest? the meal lasts. the feast. Endures. the foy. Lasts until later and. There my case rests. Oh, sages and prophets. Call again. Call in the wilderness.=20 Bang on the window shout=20 on the pavement. They are=20 s - p- e- a- k- ing 7. speaking of colour=20 and speaking of which.=20 and furthermore. the=20 mores and particulars.=20 The mores of our tempus.=20 Oh. Fugit. just fugit. And if=20 8. not to be measured. In weights or roods or poles or pounds or inches or mili or never. Never. nor hectares and rods and yes.=20 9. yes. he is not of this world. but very much part of life or/& the exposure of her labia=20 &/or the lack of exposure of=20 her gorgeous half-Italian backside. Mongrol foreside and all in between sighs skies and her small breasts. Are just where he left them. The left is still best. 10. was it. What? no prophecy? None? not even a little bit? the prophets=20 of bees. Of be. Of trees. he is almost. Almost 11. he is not of your world. perhaps but very much part of an other heard. Doesn't count. almost heard does not 12. one in which: picturesque? no. no. Not if you saw him real & ordinary as Extra ordinary. Gold. That is for=20 certain. and a slick 13. speak. There is no gua- rantee that a voice will carry. There is no ob- 14. ligation for one to be heard. And one inter- pretation noted. And 15. one further, one heard and not heard, cannot dominate as one 16. that names one thing & then another or not. names To have=20 No. what? Ah: an observation.=20 17. must be another cause must be & Endures? he continues. Endures. as does love. Endures. con- tinues. Time passes & continues. Endures. Is. 18. of this world? Not of this world.=20 Inhabits another. This is another! & of this world. An other world this is another world! this is!=20 and Endures. He is. and=20 Continues. Coming. 19. Endures. Enduring. Is.=20 and the falling leaves=20 possibly are not.=20 20. measured in roods or=20 meills or ancient maps. ex cambed. half of two quoyis=20 of land. Endures. the bread=20 21. the butter he eats. Not lithe the conjugations run. and time endures. Not having endured simply enduring. Remaining 22. within. And without a doubt within the doubt. Without the quantified duration. this way. And certainly that. and the other when the way is uncovered & inviting. So inviting. another. But. this is the. man. who. never. left. Uncovered. He entered. Deep. Slipped in. just like that. The open thighs the splayed thighs. The slip- pery grip. and stayed. Slipped in and stayed. Deep. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 15:05:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: "Management, Management; All Is Management" In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Some of the management/labor legal confusion comes from the way most academic departments are structured -- that is, not only are most chairs, deans & provosts themselves nominal members of the faculty, but departmental decisions about hiring, non-renewal, scheduling etc. often involve a faculty committee -- courts like to point to the rather thin veneer of "faculty governance" as a reason to deny labor organizing rights to professors, but it would usually take no more than one meeting with a dean to realize how little management power, as opposed to responsibility, is actually lodged with the faculty. I was bothered by the ref. to "scab" labor myself -- That term is generally used to refer to replacement labor brought in at a time of strike, lockout, contract non-renewal etc -- what the adjunct faculty pool is really a part of is the rapidly increasing move to "casual" labor forces in the name of "flexibility" -- which makes them more like the ever-vulnerable "support" staff and cleaning crews -- There is no justifiable basis in fluctuating enrollments or curricular flexibility for the massive move to "part-time" staffing of academic departmes -- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "The university professes the truth, and that is its profession. It declares and promises an unlimited commitment to the truth." Jacques Derrida (Without Alibi 202) Aldon Lynn Nielsen George and Barbara Kelly Professor of American Literature Department of English The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 12:48:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: From the horse's mouth In-Reply-To: <20021015141419.59420.qmail@web40808.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >Mairead Byrne wrote: > >> Dear Kevin, could you go back for dessert and ask >him his opinion of May Swenson? . . . Just tell me >about the dessert. If they have dessert at Benihana. >Mairead I hope that was a joke about May Swenson. As a grizzled veteran who got the Allen anthology when it came out, I am befuddled by the notes here about who might have been included. I mean that Plath, Swenson, etc. were not excluded because they were women; they were excluded for the same reason that X.J. Kennedy and Robert Lowell were excluded. -- George Bowering Not deeply tanned. Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 12:52:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Fwd: Rejected posting to POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > >To: UB Poetics discussion group >From: George Bowering >Subject: Re: women in The New American Poetry >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > >> > Ahh, Bromowitz, ahh Blowinger, and I thought you'd forgotten... "D. >>> A" ..."diamonds aplenty" ..."delectable appetizers"..."drama >>> afoot"...bienvenu encore au Salon de Discipline, chez L'Hotel de La >>> Nouvelle Poesie Americaine... Rachel my sistah, are you down w/ the >>> people here? >> >>Nah. I put my riding crop in storage after the unpleasantness in >>Poughkeepsie. Some people never do stop begging, though, and their name >>is "duck's arse" or maybe "district attorney." >> >>But if "delayed action" is sweetest. . . >> >>Don't answer! >> >>D'Abyssinia > >Okay, but I don't want to be tarred with the same stick that takes >care of D'Avid. >-- >George Bowering >Not deeply tanned. >Fax 604-266-9000 George Bowering Not deeply tanned. Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 19:36:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: Of late on the blog and a call for unblogging thinking Comments: To: ron.silliman@gte.net Comments: cc: webartery@yahoogroups.com MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Ron, thanks for putting up the 'myths of langpo' piece. it might go some ways toward defusing the industry of unclear reputation-building attacks? This is NOT, I repeat NOT a defense of langpo or an attack on attackers. I'm still unclear about the meaning of 'asyntactical' as used by Leary It would seem in a gnostic context it might mean that langpoers were agnostic in their attitude toward syntax or athiests who didn't believe that syntax was 'god'? or just fuzzy langpo? 'bubbler' was an accepted term as early as 1950 in Milwaukee. i always assumed it came from the German creative influence there as in the thingie that gBubblens? tom bell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 6:31 AM Subject: Of late on the blog > Boontling, bubblers and a dialect survey > > Two masters of vocabulary: Forrest Gander & H.D. > > Conservative poetry that truly rocks - Annie Finch's *Calendars* > > "The asyntactical tactics of Language poetry" and other myths > > A Philadelphia progressive poetry calendar > > Tan Lin's *Lotion Bullwhip Giraffe* > > Problems of the *New American Poetry* > > Eliot Weinberger on the Allen anthology > > > http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 13:57:53 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mister Kazim Ali Subject: prakalpana? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii can anyone give advice, description, or examples of an Indian (old-school...I mean: asian) experimental form called "prakalpana" or something like that? ===== "As to why we remain:/we're busy now/waiting behind bolted doors/for the season that will not pass/to pass" --Rachel Tzvia Back, "Azimuth," Sheep Meadow Press __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 16:58:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Philip Nikolayev Subject: Re: prakalpana? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mister Kazim Ali askes: "can anyone give advice, description, or = examples of an Indian (old-school...I mean: asian) experimental form = called "prakalpana" or something like that?" There is a Calcutta-based experimental poetry journal associated with = this form -- worth checking out. http://prakalpana.tripod.com/index.htm Cheers, Philip ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 18:35:41 -0230 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K.Angelo Hehir" Subject: Re: prakalpana? In-Reply-To: <10F2B8E6B6C9AC4993FC1FB47C0D88CC58F7A4@karat.kandasoft.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII fuck this list rocks sometimes! On Tue, 15 Oct 2002, Philip Nikolayev wrote: > Mister Kazim Ali askes: "can anyone give advice, description, or examples of an Indian (old-school...I mean: asian) experimental form called "prakalpana" or something like that?" > > There is a Calcutta-based experimental poetry journal associated with this form -- worth checking out. > > http://prakalpana.tripod.com/index.htm > > Cheers, > Philip > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 18:01:05 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: inside/outside the academy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/15/02 11:04:27 AM, joe.amato@COLORADO.EDU writes: >murat, i think the analogy is way off though---in what sense does a >professorial position constitute (with or w/o tenure) a managerial >position?... I was referring to a previous post (I don't remember whose) where it was mentioned a court in one of the states said that faculty members can not strike because they are part of the management. >as to lock-out, again, i can't see it... first off, many adjuncts >(such as kass here) have a course-by-course contract (it's not even >yearly, would that it were!)... That's my point. The adjuncts are powerless. The college can do whatever it wants in regards to them and call it whatever it wants, including pressuring state legislatures to pass laws which make strikes by teachers illegal. Here is the gist of my argument. The only group of people among teachers who have a modicum of power are a few high visibility stars. A college needs them for prestige to attract good students, grants, etc. They have an added value to the colleges besides their teaching. If this group identified itself with the majority of other teachers (adjuncts, etc.) and refused to work under the mistreatment of the rest of teachers, then some change, improvement might be possible. But I don't think most of the "stars" feel this identification with the rest, to the degree at least of losing their positions. They act in terms of individual interests. As a result, adjuncts are powerless and in my opinion completely exploited. Murat ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 08:24:40 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Pam=20Brown?= Subject: JG wrote... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit JG wrote: "I think Sexton is just plain awful" so she put them in a rowboat and sent them off - "The Awful Rowing Towards God" by Anne Sexton. Cheerio from Pam ===== Web site/P.Brown - http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Workshop/7629/ http://careers.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Careers - 1,000's of jobs waiting online for you! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 18:38:46 -0400 Reply-To: cartograffiti@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "cartograffiti@mindspring.com" Subject: Reading in Oakland, CA this Sunday MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'll be reading with Eli Drabman this Sunday at 21 Grand in Oakland=2E Details below -- come by if you're in the area, and I'll try to figure out= how I fit Michael's title rubric=2E I can get with the Ashbery-ism, but "youngish" sounds more like a language or nationality than an age approximation=2E Perhaps I'll translate on the spot=2E And the nearest my experience comes to "diviner" is "de-veiner," an unspeakable thing I was forced to do to soggy shrimp at a short-lived gig at a seafood restaurant=2E= And please check out the rest of the series=2E It looks like a great line-= up=2E All best, Taylor Brady (apologies for cross-posting)=20 Begin forwarded message: > From: mcross@mills=2Eedu > Date: Sat Oct 12, 2002 03:16:30 PM US/Pacific > To: 21grand@onebox=2Ecom > Cc: mcross@mills=2Eedu > Subject: THE NEW BRUTALISM: READINGS BY YOUNGISH DIVINERS > > THE NEW BRUTALISM: READINGS BY YOUNGISH DIVINERS > (Please forward to all interested parties) > > I am pleased to announce a new reading series designed to showcase=20 > younger > experimental poets=2E The readings will take place on the third Sunday o= f=20 > every > month at the fabulous art space 21 Grand=2E And guess what?? They start=20= > this very > month!! > > That's right! Come to 21 Grand on Sunday, October 20th to be dazzled by=20= > the Bay > Area's own heartthrobs, Taylor Brady and Eli Drabman=2E The reading will= =20 > start at > 7pm=2E > > In other words: > > Taylor Brady and Eli Drabman > October 20/ 7-9pm > 21 Grand > 449B 23rd Street, Oakland > (Between Broadway and Telegraph Avenue) > $4 cover > > Taylor Brady hails from Tampa, Florida=2E Following sojourns in=20 > Brooklyn -- > where he dropped out of the music publishing industry -- and Buffalo -- > where he dropped out of graduate school --, he has called San Francisco > home since 1998=2E His publications include Microclimates (Krupskaya,=20= > 2001), > 33549 (Leroy, 2000), and Is Placed/Leaves (Meow, 1996)=2E Recent work ha= s > appeared or is forthcoming in Lipstick 11, Conundrum, and the catalog=20= > for > the Bay Area Now 3 show at Yerba Buena Center for the Arts=2E He is=20 > currently > working on a book, Occupational Treatments, to be published by Atelos=2E= A > section of this text, "Production Notes for an Occupation," will soon=20= > appear > on the Duration Press website (www=2Edurationpress=2Ecom)=2E This is his= first > reading in Oakland=2E > > Dodie Bellamy says of "Microclimates": > Microclimates is a genre-bending tour de force, a textual body in which=20= > Taylor > Brady pushes all the pressure points of poetry, family saga, politics,=20= > scholarly > apparatus, documentary, commonplace book, musicology=2E And with its=20 > recasting of > epistolary tropes, it's sort of a Dangerous Liaisons for the thinking=20= > man or > woman=2E Expunged from a landscape of dream, Microclimates takes "you to= /=20 > another > earth/ entirely=2E" Behind the keen intelligence and wit, a sizzling=20 > steam rises, > spelling out the words S=3DO=3DU=3DT=3DH=3DF=3DL=3DO=3DR=3DI=3DD=3DA in = bursts of Althusserian > lightning=2E > > Eli Drabman was born in Santa Cruz, and grew up in San Jose, Saint=20 > Helena, > Yosemite, Las Vegas, Boston, Anchorage, Dellow Falls, and Eugene=2E He=20= > plans to > live in Oakland for the rest of his life=2E He received his BA from UC=20= > Santa Cruz, > and is in the process of completing an MFA degree at Mills College=2E He= =20 > is > currently working on his much admired, and hotly anticipated, long=20 > poem, "An > Aphid Song=2E" > > All proceeds from this event will help fund 21 Grand and the public=20 > poetry > series "Secret Swan=2E" > > Events to Follow: > > Sunday, November 24- K=2E Silem Mohammad and Trevor Calvert > > Sunday, December 15- Sarah Anne Cox (tentative) and Cynthia Sailers > > Sunday, January 19- Jocelyn Saidenberg and Julia Bloch > > Sunday, February 16- Steve Dickison and TBA > > Please come, bring food and drink, buy books, and be nice to the poets=2E= > > If you have any questions, or would like to be added to the mailing=20 > list, do not > hesitate to email at mcross@mills=2Eedu=2E > > Further directions can be found at www=2E21grand=2Eorg > > Thanks, > Michael Cross > Manifest Press / syllogism magazine / Secret Swan > > "=2E=2E=2Ecorrect, at least by New Brutalism standards=2E=2E=2E" > John Ashbery > -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 16:53:19 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: inside/outside the academy In-Reply-To: <7a.2ea14b70.2addea21@aol.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I'm still finding this thread to be fascinating. I wonder about some of this, though, and the ramifications some of this has for "the end of tenure" -- these "stars" are increasingly nomadic, too, no? >> A college needs them for prestige to attract good students, grants, etc. Do undergrads have a level of awareness which allows them to choose their institutions based on who is teaching there? I would argue no. So, this consideration applies to large research institutions which grant PhDs and to smaller institutions which grant MFAs. It also applies to the pool of graduate student applicants. Who already want to become teachers, no? Someone once told me, "behind every successful academic career is a brilliant grant writer". In other words, is the academic job in a research institution actually a fundraising job? It is common outside of academia to have to save or make a certain multiple of one's salary. The "stars" -- are they valued because they can speak at fundraisers? I know many local poets who give all their students As, don't require any writing or reading, tell all the students they're great, tell them they'll be able to get great teaching jobs, so that their classes fill (or so that they can charge $100 / wk a head at their private workshops). Did they think they teach anything? Do they value their work? What is it? Do they value it because they are paid? >> They have an added value to the colleges besides their teaching. So perhaps only the value the adjuncts have represents the value of teaching (common argument). How valued is the content in these courses adjuncts teach? And who values it? Or is not teaching it valued more? The US is becoming 1) less regional, 2) more concentrated in urban areas. I was under the impression that it was easier to get a better teaching job in a less desirable location, and that there were more adjuncts in NYC and LA, due to capitalism or something. Yet another -- did I learn anything about poetry in school? No. So, I was unreasonable to think that there were jobs teaching it. Rgds, Catherine Daly cadaly@pacbell.net Mary Oliver, A Poetry Handbook, "Diction, Tone, Voice" "There is a kind of language that is clearly unsuitable when one is writing a poem. I call it informational language." ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 20:10:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jane Sprague Subject: Re: inside/outside the academy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit They kept finding this thread to be fascinating. They kept lashing the adjunct to the post. They kept looking away from what they might do to be with words. They kept fundraising. Or skirt raising. Whatever worked and would feed them for a day. They kept listening to nomadic colleagues. They kept wishing the institutions would keep their colleagues for more than a year. Or three. They kept wishing their lashed to the post now colleagues would have a real contract. More than 10 months. They kept wishing their posted lashing comrades would be hired for more than 30 hours a week so their comrades would get health insurance. They kept wishing institutions would hire them for real instead of only wanting adjuncting. They kept wishing they could pick a word like adjunct off like a scab. Off a post. They kept wishing this. All the time now. They kept wishing the undergrads would be born aware. They kept wishing they were all made of stars. They kept wishing 'adjunct' did not mean 'a subordinate or incidental thing.' Unlike a scab which itches of course before it heals. In regard, Jane ----- Original Message ----- From: "Catherine Daly" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 7:53 PM Subject: Re: inside/outside the academy > I'm still finding this thread to be fascinating. I wonder about some of > this, though, and the ramifications some of this has for "the end of > tenure" -- these "stars" are increasingly nomadic, too, no? > > >> A college needs them for prestige to attract good students, grants, > etc. > > Do undergrads have a level of awareness which allows them to choose > their institutions based on who is teaching there? I would argue no. > So, this consideration applies to large research institutions which > grant PhDs and to smaller institutions which grant MFAs. It also > applies to the pool of graduate student applicants. Who already want to > become teachers, no? > > Someone once told me, "behind every successful academic career is a > brilliant grant writer". In other words, is the academic job in a > research institution actually a fundraising job? It is common outside > of academia to have to save or make a certain multiple of one's salary. > > > The "stars" -- are they valued because they can speak at fundraisers? > > I know many local poets who give all their students As, don't require > any writing or reading, tell all the students they're great, tell them > they'll be able to get great teaching jobs, so that their classes fill > (or so that they can charge $100 / wk a head at their private > workshops). > > Did they think they teach anything? Do they value their work? What is > it? Do they value it because they are paid? > > >> They have an added value to the colleges besides their teaching. > > So perhaps only the value the adjuncts have represents the value of > teaching (common argument). > > How valued is the content in these courses adjuncts teach? And who > values it? Or is not teaching it valued more? > > The US is becoming 1) less regional, 2) more concentrated in urban > areas. I was under the impression that it was easier to get a better > teaching job in a less desirable location, and that there were more > adjuncts in NYC and LA, due to capitalism or something. > > Yet another -- did I learn anything about poetry in school? No. So, I > was unreasonable to think that there were jobs teaching it. > > Rgds, > Catherine Daly > cadaly@pacbell.net > > Mary Oliver, A Poetry Handbook, "Diction, Tone, Voice" > "There is a kind of language that is clearly unsuitable when one is > writing a poem. I call it informational language." ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 20:36:30 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jane Sprague Subject: "If" "I" "were" "running" "a conference" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If you were running a conference and this was what its like I would be there and I would bring Ithaca in a handbasket and my adjunct friends who do what we do because our options are so few and we matter to our students and our students hold symposia on "class" and "academe" and I would bring my students too and some are wee (4yrs old) and some are huge and do you have examples of where to go to see exquisite examples of code/poetics/poesis as the ones I know often leave me longing... I think you should do a conference like this sooooooooon. Jane ----- Original Message ----- From: "mIEKAL aND" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 12:16 PM Subject: "If" "I" "were" "running" "a conference" > (this is coming from the viewpoint of having living, working, = teaching, > & struggling inside of a decentralized anarchist & collective = landscape > populated largely by young folks who are nomadic & have made life > choices which do not have post-grad degrees, teaching in institutions, > & retirement as motivations for their paths in life.) > > "If" "I" "were" "running" "a conference" > > 1/ TTTTTTThere would be no superstars. > > 2/ AAAAAAAny gathering of differing viewpoints, no matter the context, > would be self-facilitating, with particular attention paid to close > listening, to representing the accumulation of experience & wisdom. > speaking louder, faster, or more aggressively would not be the > bottomline for being heard. > > 3/ IIIIIIIdeas would be dynamic & useful conceptual trampolines from > which participants could cut & paste according to their needs & > desires. Ideas would not be precious cultural artifacts frozen in = time > & place, traded like so many hog futures on the chicago stock = exchange. > > 4/ IIIIIIn my community, gatherings are organized with notions of > networking & information exchange front & center, organized around an > urgent sense of breeding each our independent concerns in a collective > assemblage. The academic conferences I've been to also have this > thirst for such activity, but it always seems to be over beers & = coffee > before & after the event itself. Id be willing to bet that this is > truly what a lot of the veteran conference junkies consistently find = to > be the most useful & memorable. > > 5/ TTTTTTThe life of thot would not be extracted & examined only in a > way which removes the consequences of our assumptions & beliefs from > what it actually takes to survive on day-to-day basis. There is much > to be learned from cooking & eating with people, from involving our = own > children in these practices which we consider to be so dear, from > dematerializing the borders between work & play. Examples are = numerous > & the point is that the operating codes of the conference as we know = it > (or at least how I've experienced it in the dozen or so conferences > I've been to in my lifetime) seem to be a very static & deeply > troubling roadblock for genuine discourse in a world that includes = more > than the university itself. Being at such an event is a constant > reminder why I see so many young people looking elsewhere for a more > gestural & cocreative praxis. > > mIEKAL > > > mIEKAL aND > memexikon@mwt.net > | > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 20:59:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: THESE LIARS MUST BE CRUELLY SMASHED. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII THESE LIARS MUST BE CRUELLY SMASHED. THESE LIARS ARE NOT MY FRIENDS. THESE LIARS HAVE NEVER BEEN MY FRIENDS. THESE LIARS WILL ROAST IN HELL. THESE LIARS ARE EVIL. This mail is from your friends at Bargain Blizzard. To stop receiving special offers, coupons, and discounts from Bargain Blizzard, click here You are receiving this email from Aseeker.com because you opted-in to receive special offers through a partner website. If you feel you have received this email in error or do not wish to receive additional special offers, please email to support@aseeker.com with "Remove" as your subject line to unsubscribe. As promised, we reserved your position in our program. If you have already confirmed your position use the REMOVAL link the bottom of this email. We're holding your spot and we have people who are waiting to be placed under you. You need to confirm right away if you have not done so already. 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MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alan, Here's your latest as filtered by SpamAssassin: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Sondheim" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 8:59 PM Subject: *****SPAM***** THESE LIARS MUST BE CRUELLY SMASHED. > SPAM: -------------------- Start SpamAssassin results ---------------------- > SPAM: This mail is probably spam. The original message has been altered > SPAM: so you can recognise or block similar unwanted mail in future. > SPAM: See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. > SPAM: > SPAM: Content analysis details: (18.00 hits, 5 required) > SPAM: USER_AGENT_PINE (-1.8 points) Message-Id indicates a non-spam MUA (Pine) > SPAM: DEAR_SOMEBODY (-1.0 points) BODY: Contains 'Dear Somebody' > SPAM: EXCUSE_16 (-0.3 points) BODY: I wonder how many emails they sent in error... > SPAM: EXCUSE_14 (-0.2 points) BODY: Tells you how to stop further SPAM > SPAM: EXCUSE_15 (-0.1 points) BODY: Claims to be legitimate email > SPAM: MARKETING_PARTNERS (3.0 points) BODY: Claims you registered with some kind of partner > SPAM: CLICK_BELOW_CAPS (2.4 points) BODY: Asks you to click below (in caps) > SPAM: REMOVE_IN_QUOTES (2.1 points) BODY: List removal information > SPAM: REMOVE_SUBJ (1.7 points) BODY: List removal information > SPAM: OPT_IN (1.6 points) BODY: Talks about opting in > SPAM: OFFER (1.6 points) BODY: Free Offer > SPAM: EMAIL_MARKETING (1.5 points) BODY: Talks about email marketing > SPAM: EXCUSE_1 (1.4 points) BODY: Gives a lame excuse about why you were sent this SPAM > SPAM: MEMBER_2 (0.6 points) BODY: Being a Member > SPAM: CLICK_BELOW (0.3 points) BODY: Asks you to click below > SPAM: SPAM_PHRASE_21_34 (3.6 points) BODY: Spam phrases score is 21 to 34 (high) > SPAM: [score: 30] > SPAM: LINES_OF_YELLING (0.3 points) BODY: A WHOLE LINE OF YELLING DETECTED > SPAM: SUBJ_ALL_CAPS (1.3 points) Subject is all capitals > SPAM: > SPAM: -------------------- End of SpamAssassin results --------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 20:43:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: "On being postacademic" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I'd like to hear people's responses to this: http://www.emergencybroadcastsystem.net/postacademic.htm -Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 21:36:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: LMJ Subject: jarnot poetry reading Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit for those in the new york city area-- please come to a poetry reading by Lisa Jarnot and Ethelbert Miller Monday November 4th, 7:30 pm at KGB Bar -- 85 East 4th Street, between 2nd and 3rd Avenues, 2nd floor), NYC the reading is free! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 20:08:48 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K. Silem Mohammad" Subject: Re: Reading in Oakland, CA this Sunday In-Reply-To: <232810-2200210215223846255@M2W029.mail2web.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 10/15/02 3:38 PM, cartograffiti@mindspring.com at cartograffiti@MINDSPRING.COM wrote: > I'll be reading with Eli Drabman this Sunday at 21 Grand in Oakland. > Details below -- come by if you're in the area, and I'll try to figure out > how I fit Michael's title rubric. I can get with the Ashbery-ism, but > "youngish" sounds more like a language or nationality than an age > approximation. Perhaps I'll translate on the spot. And the nearest my > experience comes to "diviner" is "de-veiner," an unspeakable thing I was > forced to do to soggy shrimp at a short-lived gig at a seafood restaurant. Omigod--that is, like, so cosmic! I too am going to be reading in this series, and I TOO WAS ONCE FORCED TO DE-VEIN HIDEOUS SOGGY DEAD SHRIMP AT A (VERY) SHORT-LIVED GIG AT A SEAFOOD RESTAURANT (Seafood Palace, Modesto, California, three days in the early 80's). Kasey ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 00:28:38 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: inside/outside the academy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/15/02 7:52:43 PM, cadaly@PACBELL.NET writes: >>> A college needs them for prestige to attract good students, grants, >etc. > >Do undergrads have a level of awareness which allows them to choose >their institutions based on who is teaching there? I would argue no. You probably are right most of them don't. But don't the "rankings" of colleges and universities use the "quality" of the faculty (not necessarily the quality of teaching) as one of the relevant factors in this rankings; don't educational institutions try to get higher rankings? >So, this consideration applies to large research institutions which >grant PhDs and to smaller institutions which grant MFAs. It also >applies to the pool of graduate student applicants. Who already want to >become teachers, no? A few questions: who gets tenure and who works as an adjunct in MFA programs? Is there a distinction between between an adjunct in a MFA program and one teaching freshman composition? >Someone once told me, "behind every successful academic career is a >brilliant grant writer". In other words, is the academic job in a >research institution actually a fundraising job? It is common outside >of academia to have to save or make a certain multiple of one's salary. My impression is that the university gets a cut (more politely a percentage for administrative expenses) of one's grant; of course, this is particularly relevant in "scientific" fields (physics, chemistry, biology, very advanced mathematics, etc). >I know many local poets who give all their students As, don't require >any writing or reading, tell all the students they're great, tell them >they'll be able to get great teaching jobs, so that their classes fill >(or so that they can charge $100 / wk a head at their private >workshops). > >Did they think they teach anything? Do they value their work? What is >it? Do they value it because they are paid? Aren't the colleges themselves in on this con since often in their calculations the quality of teaching is irrelevant? >>> They have an added value to the colleges besides their teaching. > >So perhaps only the value the adjuncts have represents the value of >teaching (common argument). I understand that in many colleges an course taught by an adjunct must have a minimum number of students not to be cancelled. This is a direct equation between the value of an adjuct and the income he/she produces for the institution: a learning structure based purely on commercial rational, I wonder what percentage of teachers in a given university or college are adjuncts? >How valued is the content in these courses adjuncts teach? And who >values it? Or is not teaching it valued more? Catherine, you tell me how valued the content/quality of teaching is? I have no doubt there are many many adjuncts who put their hearts and soul into teaching. But, in the economic structure, how valued is that effort? In my view, higher educational institutions in the States have anticipated practicing by many years (before corporations even) the worst vice of global capitalism, the ability to pursue and use the cheapest, least protected labor. I hope I am not insulting anyone in this list, but that's the way the adjunct position appears to me to be used; that's where my beef is. I would like to know if I am wrong. >The US is becoming 1) less regional, 2) more concentrated in urban >areas. I was under the impression that it was easier to get a better >teaching job in a less desirable location, and that there were more >adjuncts in NYC and LA, due to capitalism or something. There are more adjuncts everywhere. Amazing, how the language of free market economics has permeated the idea of a university, so different from medieval monasteries where excess time was used (by some) to copy down or tramnslate or read secret knowledge. What happened to excess time? >Yet another -- did I learn anything about poetry in school? No. So, I >was unreasonable to think that there were jobs teaching it. Exactly my experience at Amherst, except for an old professor called Baird's Shakespeare course, where each week for forty-five minutes he meandered around a Shakespeare play, maybe quoting one single passage. That meandering taught me everything about poetry. Murat ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 00:19:12 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Damian Judge Rollison Subject: Re: inside/outside the academy In-Reply-To: <195.f0ea28f.2ade44f6@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII >I wonder what percentage of teachers in a given university >or college are adjuncts? Murat, it was just in the California papers that 52% of statewide Cal State faculty are adjuncts. That's 11,000 versus 10,000 tenured or tenure-track, if I remember the numbers correctly. However the state administration has supposedly committed to a goal of 75% tenured faculty by 2010. The English dept. at my local CSU, Cal Poly San Luis Obispo, has 31 full-time faculty and 24 lecturers, slightly better than the statewide figure. Union rules there require that lecturers who've taught before get first crack at next year's jobs -- some small measure of job security for them. One hears the horror stories -- no office space, hellish commutes from school to school, no benefits -- but it's also true that a person can get one of these jobs with only an MA and can teach at the university level without the necessity of publishing or serving on committees. Without the privilege, one might also say -- depends on what you want. How common is it, I wonder, for an academic couple to consist of one full-time prof and one adjunct? Seems to be the way many couples get around the awful problem, given extreme job scarcity, of how to work in the same geographical area. Damian <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< damian judge rollison department of english university of virginia djr4r@virginia.edu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 00:50:10 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Damian Judge Rollison Subject: john's 9 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Another of the Beatles recurring themes involved songs written by John Lennon. It seems that Lennon had a fascination with the number nine that was only overpowered by his love for Yoko. "One After 909" "Revolution No. 9" "#9 Dream" Ironically, this song was a part of Lennon's ninth solo album which was released in the ninth month of 1974. The song even peaked at number 9 in the charts. AND.... A verse in the song has nine syllables, "Ah, bowakawa, pousse pousse." His album, Mind Games, contains nine letters in its title Another of Lennon's album names contains nine letters. The album was his dedication to classic rock and was entitled: Rock 'n' Roll John Lennon was born on October, 9 1940 Some even say he was born at 6:30pm. 6 + 3 + 0 = well you figure it out. His son was also born on the ninth When John Lennon was shot, on December, 8th 1980, it was already December 9th in his hometown of Liverpool, England. Liverpool has nine letters When an engineer said "Revolution number nine" to begin the recording of the song by the same name, John loved the sound. He was lucky that it had been recorded. John looped the recording over and over again throughout the beginning of "Revolution No. 9" Nine letters make up the most important phrase of one of John's most important antiwar songs. All we are saying, is give peace a chance. JOhn OnO LennOn and YOkO OnO LennOn's combined names contain nine O's John's elementary school bus number happened to be 72. 7 + 2 = 9 (We know its a stretch) He even lived in apartment 72 in New York. Yet another 9. McCartney, his best friend through most of his life, is spelled with 9 letters. If you know of anything else, Let us know! <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< damian judge rollison department of english university of virginia djr4r@virginia.edu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 01:22:30 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew Rathmann Subject: poetry & globalism Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This seems like the moment to discuss the globalism debate and its relation to poetry -- and to do so from the point of view of poetry, if that's possible. Among popular political writers there are already plenty of cliches circulating on this topic. But, unless I'm mistaken, poets have not yet had a lot to say. Or perhaps they are saying it, and their readers aren't paying attention. For myself, I'm not sure how to begin thinking about his issue. Andy ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 04:47:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alex Young Subject: reading silliman reading andrews MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 hello all, I always enjoy Ron Silliman's Blog, but I took issue with his = Oct. 12 posting regarding the Top 10 Myths about Language Poetry and his = reading of Andrew's Lip Service. This casual reading (and the = subsequent commentary) reveals an anxiety about the reception of LangPo = (and Silliman does not seem uncomfortable with that label, at least = here) that undermines many of the positive reading methods that LangPo = is beginning to introduce into the poetic (and academic) mainstream. What better way to start this exercise than invoking the Language = Poetry muse... "When I say that the orders "Bring me sugar" and "Bring me milk" make = sense, but not the combination "milk me sugar", that does not mean that = the utterance of this combination of words has no effect. And if its = effect is that the other person stares at me and gapes, I don't on that = account call it the order to stare and gape, even if that was precisely = the effect I wanted to produce." --Wittgenstein, Philosophical = Investigations 498 (trans. Anscombe) Now then, I'll come back to that later, but lets take a look at = Silliman's conclusions about the implications of Andrews' writing being = considered anti-grammatical and non-narrative by many readers: Andrews is using poetry to make an argument here, quite like Dante, = and the exposition is hardly impenetrable. Nor is his thesis so = revolutionary that it should cause a reader to stumble. None = of it requires the kind of mind-numbing detail that I've laid out = here - a casual reader should be able to sense almost all of this = just perusing the text. Any college senior, regardless of major, who = can't pick up 80 percent of it just by reading the passage above ought = to demand a refund of his or her tuition - because this = isn't scholarship, it's literacy. And the inability to do = this suggests a pretty sad state of affairs. =20 Several interesting things to be picked up here that run contrary to the = average LangPo thoughts on reading: Silliman reads Lip Service as a = text with a "thesis," an "argument," an "exposition," and as a text that = is "penetrable." He goes on to say that the casual reader should be = able to "sense almost all of this," the this presumably being the = meaning that Silliman produces in his reading. In the coup de grace, = Silliman declares that any college graduate, if plunked down in some = nightmarish version of the GRE which had a reading comprehension section = with Lip Service as the primary text, should be able to "pick up" = (comprehend) at least 80 percent of it. (Can you imagine it? "Question = 42: What effect does the phrase 'Charm Master' have on the author's = overall argument?" "fuck...") In the next paragraph brings in an almost quasi-religious = metaphor with the reference to the movie Pleasantville--as if those who = don't "get" a text like Lip Service are lost while those who "get" it = are found. Having established that here Silliman is trying to perform a = sort of positivist reading of Lip Service as an expository, penetrable, = narrative, grammatical, and apparently transendental text, it becomes = easy to retroactively subvert his reading. There's a lot of fodder = here; I'll just make a couple of main points and then move on to the = last line. =20 First off, Silliman's reads about "80 percent" of the passage as a = sort of layered metacommentary on the poetic process, which is a = fruitful reading, but one that immediately limits the audience--how = could a biology major possibly associate "projective" with "persona" or = "voice-as-breath-as-persona"? How would they understand the word "goof" = as pointing towards Allen Ginsberg, and thus "multiple lines of = simultaneous heritage?" And further more, if the entire passage is read = as an analysis of language, doesn't it violate one of Silliman's 10 = commandments of LangPo, thou shalt not write poetry to prove a theory? = If all we wanted was this sort of commentary, there's plenty of = perfectly expository, penetrable prose Andrews' has written on the = subject of linguistics. Secondly, what if we read the piece looking for the subject = matter of the professed "raw material"--looking at a phrase like = "somehow pumps" or "scared to fake" while thinking about "love, erotic = intimacy, gender socialization& the body" they open up several new = vectors of possible meaning for the passage. I find the two neologisms of the last line just as appealing as = Silliman does, but I find his reading of them next to incomprehensible. = Silliman reads the first neologism as "jokingly characteriz[ing] the = omnipresence of immanence's lush visuality - it's just there, = everywhere." =20 Ok--so in this neologism we have one familiar prefix "simul" and one = familiar noun "crayon." There is also a very close homophonic = resemblance to the noun "simulacrum"--"a likeness, an semblance, a mock = appearance, a sham;--now usually used in the derogatory sense." = (Webster's) So--for me, its most interesting for me to read this as a = characterization of the "simulacrum" as a simulated (fake) child's = coloring tool. Which is interesting. Somehow. And I've drawn it = directly out of the syllables on the page. On to door number 2..."scopafidelity." Once again, to relatively = distinct morphemes here (maybe 3?), the obvious fidelity, scope, and the = questionable a. My first instinct is to read it directly as "scope" = (range of vision) [is] "a" "fidelity," in the sense of fidelity as = "faithfulness; adherence to right [values]" (Webster's, brackets mine). = This is an interesting intellectual point that I could see = contextualized with Andrews' expository writings. But this reading is = certainly not demanded by any sort of syntax--why not go with the pun on = scope, as in the mouthwash, and fidelity as it is used in the world of = audio technology (high fidelity)--then you get an image of input signals = that are sort of washed out or steralized. Silly, but it works, and = with Andrews' interest in commodification etc., I wouldn't put it past = him (not that we're bothering with anything like 'intent' here). How = you get the "psychotropic or drugged" images out of the last neologism = are beyond me, but if thats what Silliman sees, all I can do is give him = a big Shakespearean "and that is true too." Ahem, so to return to our insatiable muse, ladies and gentlemen, = Bruce Andrews is indeed asking us to "milk the sugar," and if we are to = do anything except stand and gape, we must accept his language as = working outside (agrammatically) or even against (antigrammatically) our = socially constructed grammatical system; he certainly does all he can to = help us come to this realization in his practice and theory. Sure, its = not "word salad" in some pejorative sense, the ruptures and breaks, the = very moments where Lip Service becomes "non-sense" (and why not call it = that?) are the most interesting moments in the text, and form the basis = for any sort of linguistic or social critique that the text does make. = But these syntactical ruptures are certainly not systematic in the sense = that they create a "penetrable" meaning. They are intentionally (and = brilliantly) asystematic in a way that forces the words and syllables of = the text to become multivalent and generative. If Ron Silliman objects = to the amount of "standing and gaping" in the public reception of = Language Poetry, then he needs to attack the idea that meaning need be = (can be?)penetrable, not the idea that LangPo is antigrammatical or = non-narrative. My critique here is not Silliman-specific, tho his reading = provided a convenient example--I think a similar critique could be made = in regard to many Language Poets--in general there is a positivist = assertion running underneath much LangPo commentary, the assertion that = the meaning of the poetry is more or less inseperable (all accusations = of "proving a theory" aside) from the theory--Language Poetry as = accessible to only the few, the proud, the theory geeks (present company = surely included). I think Language Poetry as made an indelible = contribution to American poetry, and I'm willing to make the assertion = that said contribution would be significant even without the theoretical = side of it. David Shapiro made an interesting comment at the memorial reading = for Kenneth Koch the other day...he said he gave Koch some Wittgenstein = to read and Koch read it and said "don't we know all this already?" = Koch was an amazing reader, but one thing that struck me as odd about = his classroom technique and his readings in Make Your Own Days was his = strict sense of what was "sense" and what was "nonsense." Despite the = presentation of this unfashionable dichotomy, Koch performed (in every = sense of that word) amazing readings from things that he declared as = "complete nonsense." Koch had developed a sensibility that recognized = the possibilities and pleasures of language that was generative and = multivalent; a sensibility that evolved primarily out of his engagement = with poetry, not expository theory (arguments about the New Critics' = influence on Koch aside--he definitely wasn't someone actively engaged = with theory throughout his life, in any case). So in conclusion--let's all read like Kenneth Koch. In language = there is that which is recognizable as sensible and syntactical, even if = syntax is socially constructed, and there is that which is not. I = think King Lear is complete nonsense. I think Tjanting is complete = nonsense. I think Lip Service is complete nonsense. My sense of the = possibility of language was enriched by reading all of these works. = Cheers, =20 =20 =20 Alex ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 07:23:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: poetry & globalism In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" jeff derksen thinks a lot about this subject and you cd read, for example, something he wrote in xcp: cross-cultural poetics 9, "As Ideology: Denaturalized Globalization and Articulatory Poetics" this is where po-crit shd be going... At 1:22 AM -0800 10/16/02, Andrew Rathmann wrote: >This seems like the moment to discuss the globalism debate and its >relation to poetry -- and to do so from the point of view of poetry, >if that's possible. > >Among popular political writers there are already plenty of cliches >circulating on this topic. But, unless I'm mistaken, poets have not >yet had a lot to say. Or perhaps they are saying it, and their >readers aren't paying attention. > >For myself, I'm not sure how to begin thinking about his issue. > >Andy -- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 08:32:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: inside/outside the academy In-Reply-To: <20021015140736.7916.qmail@web21105.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" the mn faculty union lost by 16 votes!!! several tens of thousands voted. it scared the regents into giving us good raises for a year or two, then it was back to business as usual. -- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 09:37:59 -0400 Reply-To: men2@columbia.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Millie Niss Subject: Re: "If" "I" "were" "running" "a conference" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What about a Webartery Conference? Run along lines we deterine on the list or on a wiki for the pourpose of planning the conference, and done in a way so as not to exclude non-academics (or academics, either). A conference where we can talk about the nuts and bolts of making web art (code, technique, structure, types of works) as well as its significance (implications for traditional literature & art, cruticism of web art and how to form a critical language for it, does web art democratize orart by being widelty available or is it and elitist form?, sources of web art in traditional literature like specific poetic movements and artistic movemenets and so forth, philosophy of web art). In keynote secssions, We could also try to categorize the types of pieces that exist into various genres and point out the gaps -- show what is lacking in current work. Have we achieved true interactivity? Is true interactivity desirable? What new structures/genres are possible, especially ones that can reach people with current or old computers? What advances in computer technilolgy willl affect web art? How do we preserve web art? How do we increase our audience or is this necessary? etc. etc. There should also be tutorials on various technical topics, for example Flash, Director, DHTML & Javascript, Java Applet Writing (for those who know Java!), making sites that interact using server-side coding (ie sites that remember vistors and are modified by them), generative poetics, advanced HTML use with Dreamweaver/GoLive (to make rollovers, actions in one frame affect another frame, client side forms that guide the user experience, etc.), Photoshop, Illustrator and some basic tutorials for writers and artists who are not web artists where they learn in a day to make a simple web work out of poetry and art they may have done before or that they create on the fly during the tutorial. During the turtorials, those who do not want tutorials could be in small discussions (not panel discussions) on specific topics which have a small limit on how many peple can join (first come, first serve). Each group would have a nominal leader with some expertise to run the discussion, and there would be a computer connected to the web with a big screen and also a CD rom drive and people could say "well, in such-sand-such a piece" and the piece would be put on the computer so that people couuld play with it while the person made their point about what it illustrated. They could also make points with works of their own brought on CD or commercial CDs or whatever they brought as props. The discussion would spend its last half hour emitting some conclusions and summarizing itself in a document which would become part of the conference proceedings; said document would be in hypertext and include working links to referenced works. There would of course be the usual sessions where people are chosesn to present works to the larger group but efforts would be made to solicit them from all over and not just from successful web artists known to the organizers. Unlike many such conferences though, presenters would explain the genesis of the work and show its insides (code, Fla or Dir file, etc.) and explain what skills were needed to produce it. This wouod be a presentaion structure for practitioners, who might want to know how a certain effect was prduced as well as what it means on the viewer's level. Pieces would also be discussed in a sophisticated manner telling what ideas are implicit or motivated them and not just (look here: if you press the red button, it says "hello") We'd have to get significant funding for the conference. An important thing would be to have computers all around in the spaces between meeting rooms where people could congregate by twos and threes, to pay the presenters and instructiors and discussion leaders enough that we can attract top people in the field, to keep the conference fee low so that people like me could attend (or have scholarships for the needy), to have a decent hotel or conference center (hotel is better because then people are together at night as well) that served the ubiquitous grilled chicken in a not too awful disguise :-), to have off-site social events making use of culture of the conference location and giving people a braik from the hotel and web art-- depending on the area this could include museum trips and galleries, night life, readings, music, guided tours, whatever -- and have them included in the conference fee or else very inexpensive (no $20 parties where you learn afterwards that all the most profound thisngs were said but you didn't go because it was so expensive), provisions for both drinks and people who do not drink alcohol (ie some decent non alcoholoc drinks at every event), accessibility for the disabled (ramps, wide doorways, curb cuts at all venues; no bathrooms accessible only by stairs, music volume not too loud so as to make it possible for hearing impaired and mentally ill people to converse, no important activity requiring physical prowess -- ie people can go and play basketball inthe hotel to wind down, but a conference wide weight liftig contest (:-) would be unfair to the disabled and simply out of shape [everyone knows that ping pong is a tradition and I don't mean to exclude it. You can even play it in a wheelchair and it doesn't require great bodily strength!] Millie I'm dreaming. I know I'm dreaming. But some people on this list are good fundraisers. And webartery itself has a certain amount of clout in the community, so people might attend a "WEBARTERY 2003: The Practice and Implications of Web Art" If we got something of a grant and there were a conference fee for those who could pay (like those employed by universities who would get sent for free), we might make back most of the money. I've been involved in planning a conference before and it's kind of frustrating (especially dealing with the hotels and comparing them and telling them exactly what kind of space you need like we need an good place for our lunchieon for 500 people with a stage and mic and waitress service and optional kosher food and optional vegetarian food etc etc." Oh -- and my cardinal rule from many conferences: DON'T HAVE SPEAKERS DURING LUNCH!!!! (especially on the forst day) It's annoying and lunch is the only easy way to meet your fellow conferees at a large conference, because you are trapped at a small table with some of them. But it's really cool to see the events you plan come into being and meet people and talk about their talks beforehand and then see what they really do. [I was involved with this in my mental health advocate days, when I worked for NAMI-RI and was on the conference committee. We managed to have a conference that cost only $50 -- one day -- and $100 on the day of the conference but was nearly free to mentally ill folks and people in poverty, that made significant money for the organization and was a lot of fun and very informative, with medical information that was new reasearch no one knew about discussed by the researchers and advocates from all over the country who came and gave talks on illness management and programs and so forth. And this was Rhode Island! By contrast, New York City has a $150 cocktail party which is totally boring and snooty and has expensive hors d'oeuvres and no real food (we served a full lunch plus snacks twice and breakfast at our RI conference) and they invite a lot of celebrities and few ill people, they spend half the year planning it, and they don't make much money. Conferences rule!] Millie -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Maria Damon Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 1:45 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: "If" "I" "were" "running" "a conference" this is a fantastic post. i will copy it to friends who are planning conferences. At 11:16 AM -0500 10/15/02, mIEKAL aND wrote: >(this is coming from the viewpoint of having living, working, teaching, >& struggling inside of a decentralized anarchist & collective landscape >populated largely by young folks who are nomadic & have made life >choices which do not have post-grad degrees, teaching in institutions, >& retirement as motivations for their paths in life.) > > "If" "I" "were" "running" "a conference" > >1/ TTTTTTThere would be no superstars. > >2/ AAAAAAAny gathering of differing viewpoints, no matter the context, >would be self-facilitating, with particular attention paid to close >listening, to representing the accumulation of experience & wisdom. >speaking louder, faster, or more aggressively would not be the >bottomline for being heard. > >3/ IIIIIIIdeas would be dynamic & useful conceptual trampolines from >which participants could cut & paste according to their needs & >desires. Ideas would not be precious cultural artifacts frozen in time >& place, traded like so many hog futures on the chicago stock exchange. > >4/ IIIIIIn my community, gatherings are organized with notions of >networking & information exchange front & center, organized around an >urgent sense of breeding each our independent concerns in a collective >assemblage. The academic conferences I've been to also have this >thirst for such activity, but it always seems to be over beers & coffee >before & after the event itself. Id be willing to bet that this is >truly what a lot of the veteran conference junkies consistently find to >be the most useful & memorable. > >5/ TTTTTTThe life of thot would not be extracted & examined only in a >way which removes the consequences of our assumptions & beliefs from >what it actually takes to survive on day-to-day basis. There is much >to be learned from cooking & eating with people, from involving our own >children in these practices which we consider to be so dear, from >dematerializing the borders between work & play. Examples are numerous >& the point is that the operating codes of the conference as we know it >(or at least how I've experienced it in the dozen or so conferences >I've been to in my lifetime) seem to be a very static & deeply >troubling roadblock for genuine discourse in a world that includes more >than the university itself. Being at such an event is a constant >reminder why I see so many young people looking elsewhere for a more >gestural & cocreative praxis. > >mIEKAL > > >mIEKAL aND >memexikon@mwt.net > | -- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 09:53:36 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: schwartzgk Subject: Re: prakalpana? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you, Philip: One of the most informative sites I've ever seen. And with the lagniappe of finding one at least one of our listees as contributor/agent. Fulcrum should consider an issue on this and related forms alone. Cheers, Gerald Schwartz Subject: Re: prakalpana? Mister Kazim Ali askes: "can anyone give advice, description, or examples of an Indian (old-school...I mean: asian) experimental form called "prakalpana" or something like that?" There is a Calcutta-based experimental poetry journal associated with this form -- worth checking out. http://prakalpana.tripod.com/index.htm Cheers, Philip ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 07:37:45 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: hi, did I tell you my name is honey with an h? In-Reply-To: <200210070130.g971Uwx16665@webmail2.speakeasy.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v546) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable hi, did I tell you my name is honey with an h? this was somewhere else as a persona hung around me like scent; = an=20 image of an image that had neither details or persuasion. perhaps I was=20= drawn to this whiff of stale air because the face was familiar or the=20 vocal cords seemed enveloped in a touchstone of security from my=20 childhood, but at this point there was nothing more than a vague=20 shadow-show in front of me that may or may not have been. my options=20 where to carry on the conversation with an image that might amount to=20 nothing more than talking to myself, or find some other route that=20 produced different special effects. in either case this conversation=20 or another might continue, but with less distinctions. it could be=20 this was nothing more then a walk on into my own personal story by some=20= two-bit player who the director owed a personal favor to? as the monologue continued, I noticed each of my forward motions = steps=20 had its own particular momentum, time lapsed as each step made contact=20= with a momentary edifice sending a slight vibration thru the cartilage,=20= thru the soul in doubt and out into the universe. at the same time I=20 was aware how my mouth moved, ears tingled, and how my brain=20 recalculated substance. I was also aware at that precise moment how a=20= response to my confessor child molester next to me, was stalled on the=20= tarmac. this individual kept talking in slow mumbles. we both kept=20 walking but in slower versions dragging our shadows into the past hour.=20= somewhere a brick fell on a vowel, the letters rearranged themselves=20= into something that resembled jackson pollock=92s later struggles. a=20 panic set in, mild at first, followed by a splattering of pain, mixed=20 with the coolness of the earth, foliage, fried eggs and meat, a=20 hodgepodge of letters that converged on a single vein, causing severe=20 blockage and then the conversation continued at a normal speed, as if=20 nothing ever occurred. I didn't want to answer any questions, it seemed imposed on the = past,=20 a color before thought, a double dotted line and the beckoning buddha=20 bellies of sanctioned killers, but what do I do when a statement is=20 thrown at me like - -I will dress you up as my own personal hypnotic inner link . . = . I=20 will make you beg for chapter and verse . . . I could feel an air of superior aggression mounting from the = inner=20 galactic, I stopped and turned to this flaying image - -you are currently over your credit limit . . . do you really = want=20 more? and can you handle me? I promise you no one position is suitable=20= . . . and not one orifices exist that I have not explored with entire=20 television crews . . . our conversation slowed to mutters and spits, turning into an = alley we=20 unzipped each others blue jeans and pretended it was nothing more than=20= identification tags. mind you there=92s nothing like being fucked in an=20= alley, up against a brick wall, a few years of slime clinging to your=20 face. I grabbed whatever part worked for me, shoving it into me like=20= challenger in earth orbit. I didn't bother to ask if it was real, it=20= didn't matter, I paid the toll and passed go. then it was my turn to=20 give advice, it seemed a symbol of duty and respect. afterwards the=20 conversation seemed stale, the image faded to an old dog with three=20 legs. I didn=92t know what I had done, or who I was talking to, all I=20= knew was I could no longer feed this canine without teeth and three=20 legs. though it's true, individuals do carry on whole conversations=20 with mammals as if they are expecting and receiving answers, (the dog=20 barks or wags its tail and it=92s interpreted as a valentine for all=20 occasions) I wasn't sure if I could go there willy-nilly with a three=20 legged beast that just fucked me. =09 at that very moment a carousel parade unit rounded the corner, = a=20 public speaker raved in pride about representation of unity. there was=20= this cutting edge mockery right on the spot from the dog that had=20 fucked me just minutes before, urinating there in a semi-tethic=20 practice on the oily spirits of the street. I tried to ignore this=20 event and go on sitting with my marooned fantasies, where I have not=20 been able to separate out those that have shoes and those that lack=20 taste. it was as I became public with my disdain for positions and=20 certain fleshy parts that I would free myself from the wrist-hold the=20 nationalist breeder forces had with those behavioral scientists in=20 everyone's pocket, that slapped flesh in a maze of a collection of=20 decadent calculations. my only salvation was to try to maintain a=20 proustian state with its multi-faceted shapes, and with its glory for=20 higher bargains at the first international. looking down at this poor furry bastard next to me with the = mobius=20 strip demeanor, I had no choice but take it to the carnival where queen=20= of sheba was performing. maybe once we were in the crowd it would get=20= lost and find another companion, maybe it would find a cat to chase or=20= a rat to eat. as we approached the outskirts of funnel-cake town, a=20 float went by carrying sanctioned killers kissing their undefined=20 underage tillage, wishing them a bon voyage as they got ready to leave=20= for war. everyone applauded and started reciting the pledge to the=20 flag. already feeling a slight sickness creep into my lower intestines=20= from the plague ala=92 stars-n-stripe brigade, like the time I tried to=20= kill myself with an over dose of peptopsmal, and if that wasn=92t = enough,=20 I knew at any moment I might run into the queen of sheba. I felt like=20= I was a character in a light comedy where the queen was a dictator with=20= a little mustache, giving me direction in that swashbuckling manner. =20 fortunately there was a bookstore just this side of cotton-candy=20 village. I ducked in hoping the image of the dog would fade or change=20= channels. I went straight for the 1950=92s, and yanked out an old page=20= from =93a queen boy looking back,=94 just in case the queen approached, = I=20 could pull out a rhyme, even if only for a second and explode the=20 itinerary to smithereens, collapsing the fence surrounding camp=20 clown-face, sucking everything into a center vortex. the queen would be=20= sucked in along with the drunken puppets, and old fry grease. nothing=20= would be left but disarmed lubrication, which was really nothing more=20 than a cheap side show. the first shriek sounded like glass breaking, my mind went to = the=20 previous recorded message, I knew this was no failed juggling act on=20 the ed sullivun show, it was the queen of sheba performing for bad=20 breath deities, starching syntax to hollowed screams and tooth biting=20 operatics, but before I could reclaim the lost lands of atlantis, I=20 heard it. -honey, honey . . . oh my dear honey. I looked around for someone else who was answering the call to = see if=20 there might be at least six more honey's in the area. I was out of=20 luck, I had been pinpointed by a homing beacon and I was within firing=20= range. it was only two years, six month, nine days and three houses=20 since we were together, and seventeen hundred and forty five hours of=20 that the queen spent pulling out one hair at a time, sitting in front=20 of a child's mirror, the kind that looks like a little plastic night=20 stand for barbie, using a pair of tweezers, one hair at a time, usually=20= about one hundred and fifty eight hairs in one sitting. I tried to forget those days and concentrate on potatoes, but = every=20 time I would hear a mouse or a child scream, I would be reminded of=20 living in a san francisco studio apartment with the queen - with each=20 hair pulled there would be a little screech, a little squawk, a little=20= squeak. this was caused by the queen stepping outside the usual four=20 knots of the twelve knotted reality, landing in the brooklyn dust bowl=20= at age five, alone and without a passport. so I could excuse the hair=20= pulling and screaming, since I knew someone was trying to stay awake,=20 while someone was screaming somewhere. It wasn't so much the piles of=20= hair neatly stacked throughout our rooms or the piercing cries, or=20 using vocal cords for simple communications, it was the way the queen=20 would throw cups, saucers, dinner plates and whole servings for six at=20= certain moving targets. I avoided major injuries by perfecting=20 duck-duck-goose, but what got to me was walking around on things that=20 crunched, slicing my feet on the way to the public fallout shelter. I=20 found it easier during these spasmodic episodes to use duck tape on my=20= mouth, tie my hands and play hostage. I occupied my time buying=20 universal manuals and started a collection of rakes before the air=20 turned to scrawler. I looked over my shoulder and saw a toothless pig talking to the = three=20 legged image that had fucked me and used public urination as a rite of=20= passage. time existed on the head of a pin that had been lost=20 yesterday. just then the muffin head gang gained access to the candy=20 apple land, the calliope was playing =93this time is the end of the next=20= time - baby,=94 the red sea parted in one direction and a passage was=20 created for the muffin heads to enter. at the same moment the police=20 stopped playing sugar daddy with their horses, and the queen arrived=20 just outside my protected zone, wearing gold lame=92 breast covers and a=20= chrome cock ring. stroking the tiny rake pendent around my neck and=20 reciting words to ward off warts, evil empires and the holy templar=20 knights. there was a simultaneous mustard surge on a cooked wiener=20 about to reach its contained limits, =93this time is the end of the next=20= time - baby=94 was reaching the integral fifteen minute drum solo, the=20= muffin heads were chanting flower songs, and my three legged compatriot=20= was sucking on a pig=92s snout as precursor to interspecies copulation. I didn't want to watch any of this from anywhere, which seemed = like=20 everywhere. surrounded by hordes on holiday parades, all waving slogan=20= killers off to lunch, the queen of sheba was cutting through the=20 atmosphere with vocal razor blades, coming directly towards me,=20 screeching love tunes of past slugs and high shoe mongoloids. I=20 quickly pulled out my pages from =93a queenboy looking back,=94 and = watched=20 as the words started to perform a queer little dance surrounding me=20 with a pirouette force-field of refuge. all stilled as the toothless=20 one frozen in the middle of a nose job with the pig, the calliope=20 gasped its last thought of air, the muffin heads reflected only a=20 slight notable motion, like gigantic monuments of stupidity waving in=20 the air, it almost made me want to recite the pledge to the flag. I noticed a light ringing somewhere in my left lobe, which could = be a=20 sudden telepathic call, or it could be the stillness was about to=20 crumble, leaving circumstances similar to the chicago hay market.=09 how does one get ready for the cracking sounds that would = commence in=20 the muffin heads and the billy club bardos, or the crackling sounds=20 that echos through the upper atmospheres once the queen of sheba was=20 taken off pause. the next moment I was aware of a crack in the earth surface and = the=20 queen of sheba said -so have you paid your taxes yet . . . you still owe me money . = . .=20 you do remember don't you? I started to think of taxes and what they had to do with anal = sex, but=20 I could only come up with bible quotations that ended up with the=20 question of whether shoes from my past life still fit. a response was=20= called for, the muffin heads were being rounded up by the round lips,=20 whose horses where smiling. it would be one thing if their horses had=20= a reason to smile, but here they were caught in a crowd of bermuda=20 shorts, looking at hot dogs and surrounded by funnel cake aroma. had=20 they been through the police s&m training and learned to beat their=20 permutations into submission, or did they just feel high and mighty=20 since they knew absolution would be forth coming? =09 I got back to my house just before being swallowed by the large=20= language collection, didn't they see what was taking place, or did they=20= truly believe that after crystal night some would be better off in=20 holiday camps? I thought I should go to social security and try for benefits, = pretend=20 to be crazy, but not really crazy, just not 9-to-5 crazy, a different=20 crazy, which makes me incapable of the 9-to- 5 crazies. I could go in=20 and say - hi my name=92s honey . . . that's honey with an h . . . not = the=20 other one, and I know the earth is mad. I would say the earth since I=20= want them to think I am crazy, not mad, mad has a different=20 connotation, a mad dog, I am mad at you, which really means I am=20 experiencing a disorder of mind based on an experience of what you or=20 someone did. no, mad by the dictionary means - =93violent sensation.=94 = =20 it is the violent part I am talking about. I go in and say hi, I know=20= the earth is mad, the dirt particles doing violent attack on it=92s=20 inhabitancies. I will go in with detail on how it=92s really the dirt,=20= the dirt is just a manifestation of madness, true madness comes for the=20= core of the earth where the pressures build up sending vibration=20 through the bedrock, through the clay, to the tiny little prose on the=20= surface . . . did I tell you my name is honey with an h. that will be a=20= good touch to say, =93honey with an h,=94 since some clinician somewhere=20= will think I have some phobia about not being heard, or no "h=92s". and even though I believe this about the dirt, the core, the = clay=20 vibrational thing, its inhabitance, living 3rd door from the sun,=20 really it=92s not the core, but left over disruptions, negative charges=20= deposed by some black hole. did I say my name is honey with an h.=20 anyways, I have to act like its the earth, since most people know about=20= this left over disruption thing, they sort of look like big black birds=20= that fly through the space. but on the other hand if I said it was the=20= plague and the only way to escape was to wear 18 inch platform shoes,=20 they'd think I am crazy, then I could get benefits. if I go too far=20 and act too crazy they will lock me up for being crazy, so I wont tell=20= them about my plan to have telephone assisted suicide, where a tone=20 would come over the phone when you dial, 1-800-333-noww, and as soon as=20= you hear the tone you keel over. the combination of my name=92s honey with an h, and the clay and = dirt=20 thing, along with death tone easy access phone numbers should be enough=20= to lock me up. so, I=92ll have to do this fine line thing of crazy for=20= 9-to-5 crazy, but not crazy for the an asylum. hi, did I tell you my=20 name is honey with an h? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 11:23:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jennifer Ley Subject: Re: ?Why is code so important to practitioners of new media poetry?? In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Damian I think most people would say 'to create assonance' because they would not think of the code having its own sound. A printed text does not have sound either, yet we are accustomed to discussing the assonance we know a printed text represents because we instantly process the print text interface. It has become transparent to us. I would think in the not too distant future ... the web interface will appear more transparent ... that is if something doesn't replace the web before that happens. An example ... the first the comes to mind does, I think, involve Macromedia code, but regardless -- miekal and's work with sound and mouseover events. best Jennifer > From: Da ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 10:28:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: Amoretti Buzz Around Virginia's Head Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed her humility would have loved this fretful music virtue did not tempt him to a rhyming union with obligation - how many walls have been adorned with indignity? the duality of an impulse and nineteen lines is here recovered temptation is satiated with a single word from Virginia her humility would have loved this fretful music the wonder is you would have it glaring whitely! virtuousness, that is, which has a thick black pigment - how many walls would have been adorned with indignity? cryptograms are nothing but arithmetical hoaxes tempting choirs to call a noise a tune, strength in numbers! her humility would have loved this fretful music Virginia's eyes were glassed with uncomfortable recollection virtue, nonetheless, keeps on dancing the Roger of Coverly - how many walls have been adorned with indignity? this trap will allow you to have your joke tempters are always courteous when paying court to Virtue her humility would have loved this fretful music - how many walls have been adorned with indignity? _________________________________________________________________ Surf the Web without missing calls! Get MSN Broadband. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 10:50:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: Virginia Is Not One To Be Easily Chimera'd Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed each new word is a big challenge the stories we talked topped all the world's myths this machine made you personal (I lost the tune of it) this same challenge you always threw became Tournesol D.R.E.A.M Rules Everything Around Me things should seem but the things seen, D.R.E.A.M Virginia, for a matchbox fee, will put the sigh into insight her conduct will nose into gorgeous old scandals I will stay exorbitant ten years until midnight and I hope you would do the same for me the laws of physics grow forgetful with age: woman found dead after fire was stabbed; a man kills four with an assault rifle and have you bought sandwich meat lately? these strawberries were not even out of a star elements now and then dimidius in outwardness on the fifth day his numbers developed the habit of taking silver bells up from our throat and through every street don't be a statue so soon... tears are sealing against waves we barred the faith by our own hands the fog, mouth open, knew she would live badly _________________________________________________________________ Surf the Web without missing calls! Get MSN Broadband. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 12:03:45 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nuyopoman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 14 Oct 2002 to 15 Oct 2002 (#2002-246) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For Immediate Release Amiri Baraka Press Conference at Bowery Poetry Club 308 Bowery (between Bleecker-Houston) Thursday October 17 11am Amiri Baraka, Poet laureate of New Jersey, will issue a statement and answer questions relating to his poem, "Somebody Bombed America." His reading the poem at a recent poetry festival has caused the Governor of New Jersey to seek his resignation, and the New Jersey legislature to try to find a way to force him out of office. Copies of the poem and Baraka's Statement to the Press will be available. Baraka will be reading with his wife Amina and the jazz quartet Blue Ark at the Bowery Poetry Club Oct 31-Nov.3. Each night will begin with a "Poets Speakout" with poets engaging in a dialogue with "Somebody Bombed America." CONTACT: Bob Holman 212-614-1224 ### Virtually Visit Bowery Poetry Club @ www.bowerypoetry.com Literally: 308 Bowery NY, NY 10012 (Bleecker-Houston) 212-614-0505 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 15:15:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: Why is code so important to practitioners of new media poetry? MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT poetic displacement is a wonderful concept to contemplate, Joe. Nice word choice. It doesn't seem to have dawned on many that in making a public spectacle of themselves here they are making a public spectacle? I do happen to think this is a 'serious' issue, but one of process 'seriousness', rather than academic. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Amato" To: Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 1:19 PM Subject: Re: Why is code so important to practitioners of new media poetry? > so (jim clinefelter, this one's for you esp.) now we're to be treated > to an anti-digital arts rant, along with the s-o-p anti-academic > rant?... maybe i should also lump in the seemingly innocent swipe > made at "indentations" by m (mpalmer@JPS.NET) who "prefers the > bohemian life to a desk job"---this assertion coming right after, as > it does, the rhetorical admission that "reams" might have been writ > by academicians about same, without his (?) "knowing"... > > and indeed, reams *have* been writ about same, m, as you full well > know---by academicians AND by poets... > > i mean, i'm trained to be a good reader, so please forgive my reading > what innuendo i see hereabouts... mr/ms. m, are you trying simply to > be provocative? (as in your last provocateur series on digital > arts)... b/c i for one am becoming less and less willing to respond > to provocateurs---unless of course they're really, really pushing my > buttons, or they really, really have something interesting to offer... > > this is all too much, really... yeah, for the record, i like digital > arts (and, uh, indentations), and yeah, they have problems too... i > haven't always endeared mself to my digitally inclined friends by > pointing up said problems (oh yeah, i compose digital stuff mself, > ok?)... > > but let's get back to my initial statement: it was our very own > charles bernstein, i believe, who long ago pointed up the positive > correlation between ranting against digital media and ranting against > less conventional poetries... but i see now a correlation also, at > least in terms of widespread (topical?) grumbling, with the > anti-academic rant (occasionally the anti-intellectual), though of > course one can't accuse digital artists of being academic either (not > with e.g. miekal and so fully qualified to speak to the digital as a > non-academic)... > > just what on earth is going on here?... are we all that... angry?... > with another war looming, this is all beginning to feel suspiciously > close to something like displacement (about which nick p and tom and > others can speak far more eloquently than yours truly)... passionate > opinions are one thing, and i for one wouldn't mind arguing the > merits e.g. of digital work with birkerts and his tribes, as i > wouldn't mind exploring the once & future value of indentations... > but out-of-hand generalizations/innuendo about "soulesscrap" don't > really serve to advance the discussion any, nosirreejimetal... > > i understand too that this post might only stoke the fires, so let me > try a shaggy dog ending: i'm not averse to conflict, but i would > like to see some substance here, as it's not enough to pitch > questions/assertions to a thousand people that are designed simply to > raise a few hundred eyebrows... > > best, > > joe ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 10:06:17 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: Tucson Zen Reatreat and talk w John Tarrant Roshi, Nov 7 (talk) & Nov 8-10 (retreat) Comments: To: Tenney Nathanson MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit thought this might be of interest to some. John is a really terrific teacher. --Tenney Nathanson (for POG) *** ZEN RETREAT & TALK NOV. 7-10, 2002 in Tucson John Tarrant Roshi of the Pacific Zen Institute PUBLIC TALK RETREAT Wednesday, Nov 7 Nov 8-10 7PM Thurs. through Sun. Suggested donation $10 Cost: $180 (if paid in full by 10/18) *After Oct 15 Cost is $210) location for both events: downtown near University and 6 Ave. *A $50 deposit is required to reserve space Coordinator: 520-320-5883 or mailto:anninal@earthlink.net make check to : Annina Lavee, 2725 E. Edison St. #1, Tucson, AZ 85716 deadline for full tuition Oct 15, 2002 for $180, after Oct 15 Cost is $210 John comes from out-of-town--please register early John Tarrant is one of the new generation of Zen masters trained in both eastern and western traditions, and the author of The Light Inside the Dark: Zen, Soul and the Spiritual Life, from HarperCollins, New York. He teaches meditation and trains meditation teachers in The United States and Australia and he is an internationally renowned koan teacher. He has a Ph.D. in psychology and has a special interest in healing and the imagination. He is interested in a spirituality that works, that transforms suffering, and that brings creativity into daily life. *** mailto:tenney@dakotacom.net mailto:nathanso@u.arizona.edu http://www.u.arizona.edu/~nathanso/tn POG: mailto:pog@gopog.org http://www.gopog.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 10:26:45 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dodie Bellamy Subject: Re: inside/outside the academy In-Reply-To: <000301c274a6$0aab3220$8f9966d8@CADALY> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 4:53 PM -0700 10/15/02, Catherine Daly wrote: >I know many local poets who give all their students As, don't require >any writing or reading, tell all the students they're great, tell them >they'll be able to get great teaching jobs, so that their classes fill >(or so that they can charge $100 / wk a head at their private >workshops). Great post, Catherine. Your comment above reminds me of advice I've heard re: adjunct survival: 1. Never give anybody less than a B. 2. Don't become too popular with the students (and thus threaten the regular faculty). Actually, the "B" advice is rather shaky, as once I gave a grad student a B (I won't go into details, but it was a gift, she should have failed) and she went to the dean about it. Everybody I talked with about her (tenured or adjunct) at this private, expensive school said she was a horrid student, but they'd all given her As. So, I'd given a straight A student a B. >Did they think they teach anything? Do they value their work? What is >it? Do they value it because they are paid? > > >> They have an added value to the colleges besides their teaching. > >So perhaps only the value the adjuncts have represents the value of >teaching (common argument). > >How valued is the content in these courses adjuncts teach? And who >values it? Or is not teaching it valued more? I think the only value one can feel in adjuncting is from the students, but that's not a given, particularly if you're teaching a course that they know is bullshit and you know is bullshit, as many adjuncts find themselves doing. This semester is a good one for me, so I am feeling valued. I'm lucky to be teaching creative writing, not comp, or some other brain destroying stuff, but I think for writing, to be effective, one has to have a lot of contact, and adjuncts are given limited contact with students. The one thing I'm really liking about Antioch, even though it's a low-residency program, I have intense contact with a few students, can really get involved with their work and what they're trying to do. Some of them are blossoming, and that's so gratifying. I don't take credit for that particularly, it may simply be a function of focus and getting attention. I think getting attention can help people develop as writers, and that's a value in teaching, simply giving attention. And let's not forget there's hierarchy even among adjuncts, like some of us get to teach grad students, some of us aren't allowed to. There's a big difference between being a visiting writer and a lecturer (I've been both), the visiting writer having lots more status. And then there's the associate faculty position, which I have at Antioch, where everybody's part-time so I'm the real thing, so to speak, and I'm treated very well, supported by the administration. Personally, I think people often develop the most in private workshops, but they don't come out of it with a degree, just better writing. And I don't think of myself as an academic writer. Teaching at this level has no impact on my writing or position in the world as a writer, other than taking up time, but at least it's usually interesting, the time that's taken up. Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 13:26:52 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brenda Coultas Subject: For web master: a request to switch the digest form MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Chris, I would like to switch to the digest subscription if possible. Thank you, Brenda Coultas ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 14:39:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: poem Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed With Apologies to my Dad and Mom Partner, do I look like a Friendly character? Take your pilgrim by the hand, and spike your Hair to the Rafters It's harder when you're being targeted, or just minding your Own business, pumping Gas The hills are alive with the Latest fresh flavor impossible to follow C'mon, during your finest impression of a drunken lunatic or Escorting the Pure through your hometown My folks say sex in my poems is a metaphor for something else well, obviously, trapped Behind the long chilly Zipper concocting better words for "alone" Wax your way thru thick layers of cheap Persona Until you're there, the Land of shiny escalators and checking messages Dig big to find more Excuses _________________________________________________________________ Broadband? Dial-up? Get reliable MSN Internet Access. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 14:16:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Eight new titles from xPress(ed) In-Reply-To: <3DABC88F.91A23B74@megsinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v543) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit xPress(ed) - a new e(chap)book publisher xPress(ed) is a new ebook publisher devoted for new and innovative experimental poetry. Eight new titles: Eileen R. Tabios: Enheduanna in the 21st century ISBN 951-9198-00-8, 41 pages Ric Carfagna: L@XL ISBN 951-9198-01-6, 55 pages Joel Chace: drawer ISBN 951-9198-05-9, 43 pages Dan Raphael: AMONG MY EYES ISBN 951-9198-06-7, 37 pages Jesse Glass: e song ISBN 951-9198-02-4, 24 pages Jesse Glass: momentum ISBN 951-9198-03-2, 25 pages Jesse Glass: puppet psalms ISBN 951-9198-04-0, 20 pages mIEKAL aND: advancience snakespeared ISBN 951-9198-07-5, 26 pages All downloads are free, books are in PDF and/or PalmPilot PDB formats. Submissions (please query first) to mailto:info@xpressed.org Sincerely, Jukka-Pekka Kervinen Editor xPress(ed) http://www.xpressed.org mailto:jukka@xpressed.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 12:24:01 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: UbuWeb Editorial Staff Subject: New on UbuWeb: Bruce Andrews "Electronic Poetics" Comments: To: ubuweb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Bruce Andrews "Electronic Poetics" http://www.ubu.com/feature/papers/feature_andrews_electronic.html UbuWeb http://ubu.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 12:41:28 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: assonance/dissonance:::CODE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Jennifer sez:A printed text does not have sound either, yet we are accustomed to discussing the assonance we know a printed text represents because we instantly process the print text interface. It has become transparent to us. ]]]]]what about dissonance? what about JODI? why should "new media" strive for a synthesis and transparency that mimics the natural world and monologic? why can't there be beautiful chaos? isn't it about time we left old notions of beauty behind?{{{{ WHAT IS THE ECONOMY OF THAT ASSONANCE? CAN THERE BE A DIGITAL AVANT-GARDE? ===== http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html meditation, net art, poeisis: blog http://lewislacook.blogspot.com/ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 12:55:54 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: Multiplicity:NOTES FOR/ON AUGUST HIGHLAND Comments: cc: "arc.hive" <_arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au>, cupcake kaleidoscope , Renee , rhizome , wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/15239/95750 Multiplicity:NOTES FOR/ON AUGUST HIGHLAND http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html meditation, net art, poeisis: blog http://lewislacook.blogspot.com/ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 06:48:41 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: komninos zervos Subject: Re: Indentations Upon Indentations In-Reply-To: <001701c2732d$cb9b2460$39c0b3d1@ibmw17kwbratm7> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-2B3B3CAE; boundary="=======6B925B26=======" --=======6B925B26======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-2B3B3CAE; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit who wrote this post? very clever komninos http://users.bigpond.net.au/mangolegs At 01:00 PM 14/10/02, you wrote: > DEAR -M > >There are all kinds of historical examples of line placement, >something as simple as a > > line > break, > > coupling of lines, > reinforcement of > >rhyme patterning, > indentation, > >beginning of new thought, > > concrete > poems > >going back several hundred years, > haiku, > >any positioning at any time in literary time > > is as much a part of line placement > as any present idea of field > > in this time, or what might follow, > > if you like, > > it's not mere fashion or decoration, > though might be used for either, > >so arguably it can't be overdone >as long as there is another breath taken, > > mind, eye, sound movement, > broken > thought, >resumption, > >idea willing to stand on it's own, >or lean on another, > > verse, > rhythm, > > bent > flower, > > wall > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "MWP" >To: >Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 10:36 PM >Subject: Indentations Upon Indentations > > > > HI > > Would any of you great poets care to explain why certain practitioners of > > the poetic art choose to put all of those different indentation levels in > > their work? You know what I mean, like this: > > > > the visible > > > > as in the past > > > > subsisting in layered zone > > > > refuses to dangle > > > > oaths on marsh field > > [etc.] > > > > (Barbara Guest) > > > > I have my own autodidactically formed ideas on the subject that may be way > > off insofar as I have never come upon a good solid reason as to why such a > > multiplicity of indentations -- (or rather, a la Guest, blurred edges) -- > > are there or what purpose they serve in moving the poem along. I must say, > > though, if nothing else that it does make a poem look staunchly modern and > > damn fine, and perhaps has something deeply to do with Olson's notion of > > field, but beyond that I am not quite sure. Also, does anybody know who >was > > the first to employ this sort of thing, and has it arguably become >somewhat > > done to death by now? > > > > Excuse me if this is a question that the academy has, like, written reams > > about without my knowing. I am one who prefers the bohemian life to a desk > > job, so I hope one will excuse the gaping holes in my knowledge as well as > > my pants. > > > > > > -m > > > > >--- >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.394 / Virus Database: 224 - Release Date: 3/10/02 --=======6B925B26======= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-avg=cert; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-2B3B3CAE Content-Disposition: inline --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.394 / Virus Database: 224 - Release Date: 3/10/02 --=======6B925B26=======-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 17:20:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Rothenberg Subject: Re: Indentations Upon Indentations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you. I did. Michael Rothenberg. ----- Original Message ----- From: "komninos zervos" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 4:48 PM Subject: Re: Indentations Upon Indentations > who wrote this post? > > very clever > > komninos > http://users.bigpond.net.au/mangolegs > > > At 01:00 PM 14/10/02, you wrote: > > > DEAR -M > > > >There are all kinds of historical examples of line placement, > >something as simple as a > > > > line > > break, > > > > coupling of lines, > > reinforcement of > > > >rhyme patterning, > > indentation, > > > >beginning of new thought, > > > > concrete > > poems > > > >going back several hundred years, > > haiku, > > > >any positioning at any time in literary time > > > > is as much a part of line placement > > as any present idea of field > > > > in this time, or what might follow, > > > > if you like, > > > > it's not mere fashion or decoration, > > though might be used for either, > > > >so arguably it can't be overdone > >as long as there is another breath taken, > > > > mind, eye, sound movement, > > broken > > thought, > >resumption, > > > >idea willing to stand on it's own, > >or lean on another, > > > > verse, > > rhythm, > > > > bent > > flower, > > > > wall > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "MWP" > >To: > >Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 10:36 PM > >Subject: Indentations Upon Indentations > > > > > > > HI > > > Would any of you great poets care to explain why certain practitioners of > > > the poetic art choose to put all of those different indentation levels in > > > their work? You know what I mean, like this: > > > > > > the visible > > > > > > as in the past > > > > > > subsisting in layered zone > > > > > > refuses to dangle > > > > > > oaths on marsh field > > > [etc.] > > > > > > (Barbara Guest) > > > > > > I have my own autodidactically formed ideas on the subject that may be way > > > off insofar as I have never come upon a good solid reason as to why such a > > > multiplicity of indentations -- (or rather, a la Guest, blurred edges) -- > > > are there or what purpose they serve in moving the poem along. I must say, > > > though, if nothing else that it does make a poem look staunchly modern and > > > damn fine, and perhaps has something deeply to do with Olson's notion of > > > field, but beyond that I am not quite sure. Also, does anybody know who > >was > > > the first to employ this sort of thing, and has it arguably become > >somewhat > > > done to death by now? > > > > > > Excuse me if this is a question that the academy has, like, written reams > > > about without my knowing. I am one who prefers the bohemian life to a desk > > > job, so I hope one will excuse the gaping holes in my knowledge as well as > > > my pants. > > > > > > > > > -m > > > > > > > > >--- > >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > >Version: 6.0.394 / Virus Database: 224 - Release Date: 3/10/02 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.394 / Virus Database: 224 - Release Date: 3/10/02 > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 17:39:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: National Book Award Finalist Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Congrats to Harryette Mullen and her terrific book SLEEPING WITH THE DICTIONARY, which is up for this year's National Book Award in poetry. _________________________________________________________________ Unlimited Internet access -- and 2 months free! Try MSN. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/2monthsfree.asp ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 16:34:08 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: inside/outside the academy In-Reply-To: <195.f0ea28f.2ade44f6@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" i appreciate the discussion of academic superstardom, but even that situation is more complex than it appears, in part b/c any number of english depts don't have someone who might properly qualify for such status (lots of englist depts. have no endowed positions, e.g.---my dept here doesn't, and i'm at a 'major research institution')... here's a great piece of writing by bruce robbins that pulls out the tangles: Celeb-Reliance: Intellectuals, Celebrity, and Upward Mobility http://www.iath.virginia.edu/pmc/text-only/issue.199/9.2robbins.txt (i cite the text-only url for those w/o hopkins project muse access)... i don't think we can tell who is/is not a "good teacher" based on adjunct v. full-time status (anymore than one can assert, as andrew r did a little while back, that "the teachers who are most committed to literature" are "those in the community colleges"... man could *that* one stand some unpacking!)... if you look at the current ~us news~ list of the "best" postsecondary institutions in the country, the top 20 correlate pretty well and with few exceptions with those schools that have the beefiest endowments (there are a number of factors that go into the "best," yes, according to ~us news~---but it's much as if endowments = best, one way or t'other)... what we *can* assert is that life as an adjunct, as dodie and others have observed, is not not not in general conducive to teaching well (the absence of publication pressure and committeework notwithstanding)... just have a look at the gymnastics most adjuncts go through on most campuses to keep their prof. selves alive... and they are most def. the lowest person on the institutional totem pole, lower even than grad students (ta's or variants thereof) b/c they don't even have customer status... now what happens when grad students in english organize (as they are and should) and adjuncts don't... oy... there are similar problems with the presence of a union at one institutional level (grad studentdom) and none at the next transitional level (facultydom)... loyalties might get a mite messy in such terms, as one finds e.g. and under different conditions when an hourly worker at a factory switches over to salary status (i've seen this happen any number of times, and it's rarely a pretty site)... which is not an argument against collective bargaining... it's a sad picture i'm/we're painting, i know, and the only way out that i can see is collective bargaining (which won't "fix" everything either)... though as michael ceraolo posted in, even state law can get in the way of organizing---which means we need reform at that level too... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 01:57:28 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Follari Subject: Reply to lewis lacook: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Dear Lewis, as far as I'm aware beauty has a few fundamental constants, eg symmetry, balance, proportion,uniformity etc but as one builds on this basis, an artist or designer or poet will lose the original ideal depending on what extra he or she has added to the skeleton of the idea. Generally a beautiful woman such as Brooke Shields or Heather Locklear have a high degree of symmetry in their faces and good proportions and uniformity of skin tone. If one tries to translate that into a poem, there must be very strong rhyme( that's the symmetry) and repitition of internal and external assonance and alliteration, basically everything must come together perfectly. Regards Tony Follari >From: lewis lacook >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: assonance/dissonance:::CODE >Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 12:41:28 -0700 > >Jennifer sez:A printed text does not have sound >either, yet we are accustomed to >discussing the assonance we know a printed text >represents because we >instantly process the print text interface. It has >become transparent to >us. > >]]]]]what about dissonance? what about JODI? why >should "new media" strive for a synthesis and >transparency that mimics the natural world and >monologic? why can't there be beautiful chaos? isn't >it about time we left old notions of beauty >behind?{{{{ > >WHAT IS THE ECONOMY OF THAT ASSONANCE? CAN THERE BE A >DIGITAL AVANT-GARDE? > > > > > >===== > >http://www.lewislacook.com/ >http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html >meditation, net art, poeisis: blog http://lewislacook.blogspot.com/ > > >__________________________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More >http://faith.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________ Surf the Web without missing calls! Get MSN Broadband. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 23:29:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: the doors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII the doors and none of you can judge me and i will kill forever and i will live forever in this new and brutal world i've never been to i've spain never but i'm but sure i'm i sure was i born was there born oklahoma i've never been to spain but i'm sure i was born there i've been to oklahoma but i've never been to spain the world of full the terror world is about being is it's travelled the world of full terror is about to being born it's never travelled farther than mine own heart farther than mine own farther heart than in i light to brilliant light sky blue sky and was oil blue upside-down i was born in oklahoma to the light of brilliant terror the sky was blue and oil the world was upside-down found brutal world new york in baghdad and capital was gold silver left gold me and oiled flowed back black sky flaming black seeped without you can find you pop-up find window the space-time i found the world was brutal in spain and oklahoma in new york and in baghdad i was born in capital rode wild i horses rode none and judge can will kill and forever i live and this i've never been i've to never spain been - to but but i'm i'm sure sure i i was was born born there there oklahoma i've gold and silver left me oiled flowed back in me the sky was black and flaming capital seeped without me the world of the full world terror of is about being about it's travelled farther than mine farther own than heart mine in was light the brilliant of sky the blue was and blue oil and upside-down the found i brutal was new in york new baghdad in capital born gold silver gold left and me silver oiled flowed back oiled black was flaming and seeped without you can you find can pop-up the window pop-up space-time of rode wild rode horses the none none judge judge will and kill i forever will live i this in you can find the pop-up window of capital in space-time i was born in oklahoma i rode the wild horses === ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 22:39:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: William Gillespie Subject: The President's Poetry Comments: cc: newspoetry@lists.groogroo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII When the guy who does the poetry show on the community radio station announced his bid for congress as a Green Party candidate, the Democrats demanded equal time. Now every other week the poetry show is all Maya Angelou. Regular listeners are pissed but feel too guilty to phone in complaints. Here in Urbana the Champaign-Urbana Arts Council, reportedly well-endowed with state money earmarked for poets, is not listed in the phone directory. Nobody I talked to at the chamber of commerce or public library knows who serves on its board or what exactly it does. It is suspected by some poets who have been around a long time that the UAC gives a private reading now and again to which a few wealthy people are invited, and that the poet who hosts these events owns a ten-acre ranch up near Moraine View and has never been published except by small presses whose identity remains forever obfuscated from scholarship. It's the same story with the mysterious "44 North:" occasionally you might read an article about them in the mainstream papers, but you will never find their post office box or fax number. Whatever projects these local arts organizations fund are closely-held secrets. During National Poetry Month there was no accountability at the state level for how poetry was promoted or pursued. Without looking at the state's overall poetry needs, politicians might arrange for a poet to give a reading here, or a book signing there, doling out honorariums to constituents well-placed in influential universities. There was no sense of the state's having a larger plan for poetry, no broader vision regarding the state's poetry infrastructure. (The situation downstate is especially bad nowadays, even though the L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E Book was once published there.) There have been allegations of bribery and of poetic licenses being distributed to writers who have not sat before the state's rigorous thesis committee. Poets gave readings at closed-door sessions of congress, state money effectively being using to fund readings closed to the general public. Now the state has had to borrow several billion dollars and there is no sign of any poetry anywhere. In public schools they are reading light verse from the 1950s. With the budget cuts, the state's major research university is no longer able to afford to retain their best poets, much less hire new poets. Even novelists are leaving. This on top of another tuition increase will make the university system no longer attractive to prospective MFA candidates. Is there no accountability? Governor Ryan should have his books confiscated by the state and donated to public libraries. State planners involved in allocating the funds for National Poetry Month should lose their positions and serve time teaching poetry on death row to pay their debt to society. At the federal level the situation is all but beyond hope. The President of course has become poet laureate for a second term, the statute that a laureate could serve only a single term having been overturned by the new Office of Homeland Poetry (appointed not elected), which is headed up by a major shareholder of the media conglomerate that owns the publisher who publishes the President's poetry. In polls taken of the legislature, more than half have stated unwaveringly that the President's poetry is beyond criticism. It is worth noting that the house's opinion of the President's poetry is divided along party lines suggesting that bipartisan bickering is more at play then any serious appraisal of literary quality, not that this is a surprise really. Scarcely credible to my mind, polls of public opinion show an "overwhelming majority" appreciate the President's poetry, though there is more public skepticism with regard to the quality of his painting. Well, nobody needs to be reminded of the circumstances of the President's being awarded the Yale Younger Poets prize at a time in his life during which he has all but explicitly denied not abusing drugs and cheating on exams: the recount was eventually completed but the results were suppressed. The major newspapers of course are uncritical of the president's poetry, save an occasional angry editorial buried in the opinion section. If the political cartoons can be taken as meaningfully indicative of a popular consensus, it would appear that few outside of the circles of poetry power would claim that the President's writing is credible. In an election year, of course, the President's poetry supplants discussions of any other issue, especially an economy in which the average family of four made about as much per year in 2001 as a Yale poet in 1970. The President's poetry has been written about elsewhere, but it is the stuff of death and broken dreams. The President's poetry mines the bottom of oceans. Asphyxiation by poverty, exhaust, gas chambers. Millions of new bombs. Fascism's cliche, the President's poetry is closed libraries, unheated classrooms, prisons: ruined language. Are we to accept as true that the average citizen thinks the President is a good poet? Does anyone really believe that the President's poetry represents our country? Are these the limits of discourse? Has literary criticism failed? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 21:28:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jenny Penberthy Subject: Tribute to Lorine Niedecker in New York November 7 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" A Tribute to Lorine Niedecker will be held at the New School on Thursday evening November 7 at 7pm. Eight speakers will talk about Niedecker and read from her work. Robert Creeley, Anne Waldman, Lydia Davis, Eliot Weinberger, Charles Bernstein, Geoffrey O'Brien, Eleni Sikelianos, and Jenny Penberthy. Tishman Auditorium The New School 66 West 12th Street (between 5th and 6th Avenues) New York City Call (212) 229-5611 for more information. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 18:03:42 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Salmon Subject: Re: GETPOST POETICS In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit somewhere a brick fell on a vowel - usually happens down here in New Zealand Dan > From: "L-Soft list server at University at Buffalo > (1.8e)" > Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 00:43:34 -0400 > To: dpsalmon@IHUG.CO.NZ > Subject: Re: GETPOST POETICS > > somewhere a brick fell on a vowel ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 02:10:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: ADRIAN (VIPER) ROSS Comments: To: 7-11@mail.ljudmila.org, ImitationPoetics@listserv.unc.edu, o-o@konf.lt, webartery@yahoogroups.com, syndicate@anart.no, _arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au, owner-realpoetik@scn.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit adrian ross serial pulse-code telemetry #010...[excerpt] www.inkbombdisposalunit.com away think better dear English replied listlessly Menahem angels holy leading child-bearing sin Adam same among fate overtook males ages very splendid wicked woman Lord Filippo all shimmering Adam's house gleaming equally cover part furs glittering up four face effeminate finely featured resembled much sister's rode found Red Sea coloured Whereupon father seemed steeped musk strongly scented all affectations one taken most see one grooms leviathan most dismounted Finally Cain wondrous father bidden down shoes wore splayed Again earth set late culture aforethought who sides cold ice inhabited man toes each because Himself feet yet doubled prayers thy found navigable reach cast off glance eye all attributed fact parts following heaven who sent also fall Satan yet can terrestrial conveniently come Jacob's Children degrees take up one arm God seven running attributed fact parts following must prostrate twenty-presence God leagues size physical presence God parts amounteth presence God fires hell meet concern use heard say Adam leagues Even speaking world made man besiegers reached death man such Land central spiritual joy stormy reach cast off terrestrial time way generation stood now Methuselah flashing wildly understanding face looked sharply wondering heavens refused amid groans earth Adamah took world thou hast turns black God sealed up shall Enoch called must go through routs balls masques opens mouth whom known few places beasts reptiles one song vulture yonder Abel one remembers during time alone am exalted little thrill heart whispers gave tree Thou these few places Luxor one Luxor home sunshine suave qualities kept light warmth cut navel string whom known up four sheeny golden sunsets last archangel shimmering nights through songs boatmen animals food go wert king Thou death portion tombs Thebes roses raven mouth Luxor mighty palms during time fruit itself Philistines palms roses lateen-sails come up animals food looking like understanding intervals week promises proclaim unto golden whom known knowledge one wakes day angels animals subsist songs knowledge strange one dreams yonder Abel come sunset one those years away up four heart golden beasts reptiles intrigued driven one looks stars each hands life twinkling day angels descendants Cain airs Luxor harshness thy will thou stirs leaves palms lamp Lord steeped light Luxor one goes Also David One returns gave tree Thou greatly yet feet Knowing Eve celestial bodies created Adamah spirits alone Thou hast lodgings let beat own Manette alone Thou hast left leviathan's corner far Soho-went thee Adam mountains certain fine explains envy waves presence God months roiled unto shall treason carried various sorts ways God indicate long far reach cast off Mr Jarvis catches up fiery walked along took creator streets Clerkenwell where lived way doing end let beat own several relapses house continued friendly Mr catches up fiery propagation Doctor's father Lamech alone Thou hast left leviathan's corner took creator like turkey-cock servants hosts certain fine explains envy Mr catches up fiery walked gold gems Soho committed memory mountains size physical reasons Sabbath light because fine Sundays often walked Originally let beat own Lucie secondly because unfavourable Sundays certain animals Thee level father Lamech talking such arts looking given unto praising God getting through earth flood thirdly because Enoch man own little name Rephaim doubts Michael lifted one thing makes ways Doctor's household forbidden time likely time often quainter corner corner where let beat own lived found because oath way through front circumcision Doctor's lodgings commanded air can Cain little vista left leviathan's congenial perfect thy few buildings completeness Oxford-road made off crying trees flourished contradict Why flowers against sky hawthorn himself haunts now vanished fields shall part stream joy airs face mouth Soho vigorous ordained effect instead choke flood missing fox like stray paupers issue mouth Holy many good attributed fact present work far off peaches ripened didst take world Only angels will give sets Give worst first Sydney Fire away fears happened ideal conditions himself back expect take one side sought vainly shall eat every while among men knew northern regions own celestial tables bestrewn shall eat every ministering other side bottles himself Abimelech Satan hand Both resorted sought vainly shall eat every stint each difficulties way fears happened most like turkey-cock reclining hands waistband looking fire occasionally flirting some lighter birds name among men knew brows intent face deep finally shall Methuselah even gracious unto hand stretched prayer praise often groped minute more found prayer praise lips angels will give size physical times appreciate hand because Joshua world hardly among men knew found offspring care get up Adam narrated towels --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. 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Version: 6.0.394 / Virus Database: 224 - Release Date: 10/4/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 02:26:12 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: CAROLIE BILLS NEW LITERARY UNDERGROUND Comments: To: 7-11@mail.ljudmila.org, ImitationPoetics@listserv.unc.edu, o-o@konf.lt, webartery@yahoogroups.com, syndicate@anart.no, _arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au, owner-realpoetik@scn.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit CAROLIE BILLS SPINDLE POLE BODY #020 [excerpt] www.newliteraryunderground.com by cctv started in progress ) ) ) logging but ) ) ) then you for some more now profound impression he finally you married you of you who are firefighters would call is have plan in against me before she put me that dress and then rose up her long less that ten feet away up our stockings ) ) ) had hotter ever had cardinal beaufort had furnished big sexy or law with rich american than female relative is them sier ) ) ) you doing well we have do well and georgia rmb per year carefully was well he did know for mccaffrey you all for said fifteenth-century sherman does poor native american hurdles sandborn was pass ) ) ) everglades test other party this year have so and at without memories ) ) ) south and of ) ) ) my question is how move ) ) ) told ) ) ) is fucking shake hands and just like viciously while ) ) ) say that saying yes i been and fields now in deflecting his constant keep have sounds more suddenly turned ) ) ) my right over platform ) ) ) his fists with yon viper ) ) ) call robert ingram good you little bitch yes yes do that were encouraging him ) ) ) he thought in that respect things had sometimes tried ) ) ) soothe her in and they seemed ) ) ) defy proximity her useful my wife had crush on her so both men hips pushing public life shots want l ) ) ) copies and came and stood ) ) ) troubles extravagance my dear child so plates into ) ) ) today doesn't make whole said in my working bluster now slamming ) ) ) ) ) ) smiles on our shoulders when we we my mother becoming my she remained ) ) ) slanders upon her ) ) ) steinberg we been thrown to ) ) ) plague-pit but so now in sahara--and much back entrance was no longer must man do you not know do because never wanted job told them they could mean i would you go about achieving my best model now guess in with pantiless did he feeling that she realize he stop of meetings with officials this is would you go about achieving my best model now guess in or nothing in return at long him york was evidently much struck scholarship went into effect in initiatives represent ) ) ) ) ) ) ave ) ) ) president talk usually have these meetings before cameras body harder watch have seen very ) ) ) beach rather go ) ) ) and then picked up ) ) ) was looking now just ) ) ) something out playing with her nipple distinctness and would you where broken into they had no reasonable going ) ) ) be children babe given gift and you can join me looked at me ass hole have some pretty improved up she was big girl almost personal collection you originally imagined trembling with some ) ) ) firm and beautiful against said audrey you have failed you close friends allison and but decided not ) ) ) encourage used ) ) ) in ) ) ) note stranger red panties her said ossing ) ) ) ) ) ) her blotting-attention and think that this our schools has seared ) ) ) ) ) ) was present ) ) ) his tried cock that big alongside ) ) ) inquest no doubt and assuming you ) ) ) basically stupid and if --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. 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Version: 6.0.394 / Virus Database: 224 - Release Date: 10/4/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 03:32:57 -0700 Reply-To: Lanny Quarles Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lanny Quarles Subject: sliding text painting Comments: To: list@rhizome.org, ficus@citynet.net, iarguell@hotmail.com, Rkosti@aol.com, soundpoetry@yahoogroups.com, Tim Gaze , trnsnd , WRYTING-L@listserv.utoronto.ca, xtant@cstone.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable xoanaddress:::::::::::::perdutatorso -/ipsis http://www.solipsisarts.com/dhtml/perdutatorso2.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 04:34:51 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: Re: Reply to lewis lacook: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii but this isn't what i'm asking, tony.... it's a simple (and very old school) avant-garde tactic...explore assymmetry, dissonance, find its heart... ...my question would be, i guess, why does so much "digital poetry" not do this? is "digital poetry" doomed to operate with nineteenth century economies in the post-electronic world? most "digital poetry" (and i use this term to distinguish it from net art...or "net art," if you will) adheres quite strictly to nineenth century ideas of beauty as well as (though many would blush to admit it) nineteenth century ideas of structure...my question is, where is the new here? what's new about "new media" such as this, when all it does is repeat in a different format the ideology of bygone eras? bliss l ===== http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html meditation, net art, poeisis: blog http://lewislacook.blogspot.com/ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 08:02:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nick Piombino Subject: Poetry and theory Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > I think Language Poetry as made an indelible = > contribution to American poetry, and I'm willing to make the assertion = > that said contribution would be significant even without the theoretical = > side of it. Indeed, and perhaps said theoretical side would be significant without the poetry side of it. Beyond the author or publisher identifying a text as one or the other, or linebreaks or other stylistic indications, references to Dante or Wittgenstein or whoever to classify a text, how do you distinguish one type of text from the other when reading innovative writing? "(7) This is not philosophy, it's poetry. And if I say so, it becomes painting, music or sculpture, judged as such. If there are variables to consider, they are at least partly economic- the question of distribution, etc. Also differing critical traditions. Could this be good poetry, yet bad music? But yet I do not believe I would, except in jest, posit this as dance or urban planning." "(16) If this were theory, not practice, would I know it?" Ron Silliman, from-The Chinese Notebook- in -The Age of Huts- Roof Books, 1986. Nick ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 08:05:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: iowa, anyone? In-Reply-To: <20021017113451.9136.qmail@web10704.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" does anyone who was at the iowa digital poetry conference have the energy to post a report? -- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 08:43:08 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brandon Barr Subject: Re: iowa, anyone? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There are the beginning of a response on Katherin Parrish's blog, with the promise of more: http://www.meadow4.com/squish/ best, Brandon > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Maria Damon > Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 9:05 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: iowa, anyone? > > > does anyone who was at the iowa digital poetry conference have the > energy to post a report? > -- > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 09:24:29 -0400 Reply-To: parrishka@sympatico.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: parrishka Subject: Re: iowa, anyone? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit oh heavens, you won't learn much about the conference itself from that. that's my blog ettiquette in full force :) i'm trying to figure out exactly what to say about the conference itself because in terms of content, it was very disappointing. anyhow, I will reserve those critical comments for the blog- given the recent discussions on poetics about new media poetries, and the academy, I'm not overly inclined to share my thoughts in this context- even though I know that your interest, Maria, is genuine and informed and well-reasoned. katherine Brandon Barr wrote: > There are the beginning of a response on Katherin Parrish's blog, with the > promise of more: > > http://www.meadow4.com/squish/ > > best, > > Brandon > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: UB Poetics discussion group > > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Maria Damon > > Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 9:05 AM > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Subject: iowa, anyone? > > > > > > does anyone who was at the iowa digital poetry conference have the > > energy to post a report? > > -- > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 10:38:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: parsing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Nick - Having a little trouble working out what is quotation from Ron and what is your gloss in your post of this morning. I understand the wish to be judged on merits, and more than that I empathize with the unstated wish not to be judged -- to be responded to instead of categorized. And I read the deletion of the introductory quotation mark as an embodiment of the expressed wish to call into question the act of distinguishing between texts. But surely this is more an act of power struggle than inquiry! OK! You guys win. And gals too. Would you say a poetics differs from a rule book? from a power struggle? Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 09:14:31 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jacqueline Waters Subject: Long Poems at the Parkside: Bernadette Mayer & Philip Good MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Bernadette Mayer & Philip Good. > > Sunday, October 27, 2002 at 7pm. > > New York: Parkside Lounge, 317 E. Houston Street. > > http://www.pace.edu/PK_oct.gif > > BERNADETTE MAYER will read Midwinter Day on the twentieth anniversary > of its publication. > > PHILIP GOOD will read from new and recent work. > > The reading will start promptly at 7. Copies of Bernadette Mayer's > The Red Book in Three Parts (United Artists, 2002) will be available. > > Parkside Lounge is located at the corner of Houston and Attorney. > F train to 2nd Avenue. > > More information: earling50@hotmail.com. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 13:50:11 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: Aaron Belz on "Here & Now" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed http://here-now.org/topics/_arts/al_020926.asp Click onto the "Listen to this Story" to hear Aaron interviewed by host Robin Young. Thanks to all Buffalo listers who sent dream poems. --Jim Behrle _________________________________________________________________ Choose an Internet access plan right for you -- try MSN! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 13:55:43 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: Upcoming Wordsworth Books Events Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Wordsworth Books 30 Brattle St. Cambridge, MA 02138 Call (617) 739 3562 and ask for "Jim" for more info SAT 10/19 3 PM TORCH MAGAZINE issue #1 release: featuring Aaron Kiely, Sean Cole, Dana Ward and more contributors from the 1st issue of Brooklyn's TORCH magazine. SAT 10/19 5 PM Poets Fanny Howe and Margo Lockwood THU 10/25 7 PM William Corbett presents the work of Lorine Niedecker SAT 10/26 5 PM Poets Anselm Berrigan and John Yau _________________________________________________________________ Surf the Web without missing calls! Get MSN Broadband. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 13:14:27 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew Rathmann Subject: Re: inside/outside the academy In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit My point was that those who advance highest in the profession tend also to assign the least credibility to "poetry" or "literature" as categories of thought (they are much more likely to speak of "cultural production," for example). If you go before an interviewing committee from a university and say, "I want to teach students to love literature," you will be met with skeptical gazes. The same statement made before a comm coll hiring committee will probably be received well. Now, it is perhaps also true that the c.c. teachers will squirm when they hear "cultural production" -- but, from my perspective, this difference has everything to do with the sociology of the profession, and little to do with intellectual sophistication. But I'm not talking about competing jargons: "poetry" is a word with wide circulation and a relatively clear-cut meaning, at least insofar as it can be distinguished from other human activities. The other phrase has significance only within the profession, where it usually serves as a badge to indicate one's status (or desired status -- all those wannabes at the MLA...). As we move from talk about "poetry" to talk about "poetics" to talk about "cultural poetics" or "production," we rely more and more on the kind of educational capital whose only value is in the academic-professional marketplace. C.c. teachers may have to pay lip service to the other professional shibboleths (about "diversity," "tolerance," etc.), and certainly it is true that many of them are mediocre, but where literature is concerned I think they can claim with some justification to be keeping it real (maybe because so many of them write the stuff). Andy >i don't think we can tell who is/is not a "good teacher" based on >adjunct v. full-time status (anymore than one can assert, as andrew r >did a little while back, that "the teachers who are most committed to >literature" are "those in the community colleges"... man could *that* >one stand some unpacking!)... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 17:00:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: The Poetry Project Subject: Poetry Project Announcements Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit SPECIAL NOTICE FOR ANYONE EVEN REMOTELY CONCERNED WITH THE PRESERVATION OF SOME OF THE LAST CENTURY'S MOST VITAL WRITING AND MUSIC: Please, if you can, attend next Wednesday's Archive Benefit hosted by The Poetry Project and the Jack Kerouac School of Disembodied Poetics, and featuring readings/performances by, among others, Lou Reed, Thurston Moore, Lee Ranaldo, Jim O'Rourke, Yoshiko Chuma, Steven Taylor, Anne Waldman and Kenward Elmslie (see full description below). *** SECOND (AND LAST) SPECIAL NOTICE: Due to unforeseen circumstances, Jaime Manrique is sadly unable to teach his workshop this fall. We will be running a Friday night workshop in its place, but the session on Friday October 18 is cancelled. Please accept our apologies. If you have already signed up for Jaime's workshop, we will be contacting you individually in the next few days. Renee Gladman's and Anne Waldman's workshops will start on Saturday and Tuesday as scheduled. *** THE COMING WEEK AT THE POETRY PROJECT: FRIDAY OCTOBER 18 [10:30pm] DIRTY 30 MONDAY OCTOBER 21 [8:00pm] TOM SAVAGE AND JOHN TRANTER WEDNESDAY OCTOBER 23 [8:00pm] THE ARCHIVES BENEFIT http://www.poetryproject.com/calendar.html *** FRIDAY OCTOBER 18 [10:30pm] DIRTY 30 Part One of an ongoing film and video series by Los Angeles curator and film-maker Denise Portsman, these films and videos are the products of an inquiry into a description of what "dirty" means in thirty seconds or less. Out of this investigation came twenty-three very moving and beautiful shorts, each 2 to 15 minutes in length. Highlights include: "Pulse" by John Tipton and Stephen Dean, "Dirty" by John Tipton, "Twisted" by Simon Thrilaway, "Fidel's Fight" by Lawrence Thrush, "Short Film" by Andrew Steinman, and "Freaktion", an animated short by Normzee. Program time 60 min approx. MONDAY OCTOBER 21 [8:00pm] TOM SAVAGE AND JOHN TRANTER Tom Savage has written eight published titles including Brain Surgery Poems (Linear Arts Books, 1999), Political Condition/Physical States (United Artists Books, 1993) and From Heart to Balkh and Back Again (Olaat, 2002). His poems have been published in the New York Times, The World, Hanging Loose, Talisman and many others. He edited the journal Tamarind and has taught at the Poetry Project and the Julliard School. John Tranter has published nearly twenty books, including Selected Poems in 1982, The Floor of Heaven, At The Florida, Late Night Radio, Ultra, and Heart Print, as well as a book of computer-assisted short stories, Different Hands. His work appears in the Norton Anthology of Modern Poetry. He co-edited the Penguin Book of Modern Australian Poetry (1991), published in Britain and the US as the Bloodaxe Book of Modern Australian Poetry. He is the editor of the free Internet literary magazine Jacket (www.jacket.zip.com.au) WEDNESDAY OCTOBER 23 [8:00pm] THE ARCHIVES BENEFIT Recordings of many of the greatest 20th century poets are decades old and in very fragile condition. If these recordings aren't restored and transferred to other formats soon, they will be lost forever. Seeking ways to combat the relentless decay of their magnetic tape archives, The Poetry Project and the Jack Kerouac School of Disembodied Poetics at Naropa University, two of the three poetry centers in the United States with the largest invaluable collections of recordings, are hosting an Archives Benefit. All proceeds will directly benefit The Poetry Project Audio Archive and the Naropa University Audio Archive Preservation and Access Project, being used to convert the precious analogue tapes into digital format. The endangered archive collections contain thousands of hours of recordings of authors and artists such as Allen Ginsberg, William S. Burroughs, Larry Rivers, John Cage, Audre Lorde, Gregory Corso, Kenneth Koch, Barbara Guest, Gwendolyn Brooks, Alice Walker, Spalding Gray, Andrei Voznesensky, Ted Berrigan, Miguel Pinero, and a multitude of others. Readers and performers will include Lou Reed, Thurston Moore, Lee Ranaldo, Jim O'Rourke, Anne Waldman, Steven Taylor, Kenward Elmslie and Yoshiko Chuma. Sample tapes of historic readings will also be played. *** Unless otherwise noted, admission to all events is $10, $7 for students and seniors, and $5 for Poetry Project members. Schedule is subject to change. The Poetry Project is located in St. Mark's Church in-the-Bowery at 131 E. 10th Street, on the corner of 2nd Avenue in Manhattan. Trains F, 6, N, R. The Poetry Project is wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. Please call (212) 674-0910 for more information, or e-mail us at poproj@poetryproject.com. *** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 00:00:13 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lakey Teasdale Subject: we spoke of. Virginia. My sister. a daughter. The fog Comments: To: "WRYTING-L : Writing and Theory across Disciplines" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable we spoke of. Virginia. My sister. a daughter. The fog we spoke of. Of all things. including the breakers, waves.=20 Virginia, not an exception. and choices. and if not now? no.=20 not even when. Clouds. Dust and debris. The wind. Spans what do they have in common these places? Plow into cloud, leave traces. Debris. Plow into cloud and leave traces. Debris not even when. The examination of deeds. Of no importance.=20 the storm? we have seen meteors before. and none just? Just. None just in the world of the. they are. clouds. light-dust. they are.=20 The north easterly blows a gale force enough to. Yes. Those were=20 the lives. shall understand and graveyards in. among men. The lives be so they said. The season of apples and thyme. How can you sleep=20 so soundly, Virginia? How can you sleep so. Let us cast. the harbour, the yoles. and no one has shelter. What do they have in common these=20 places? the islands. a north easterly. and on her lips: new year honey.=20 and on her lips honey. and the gale passes over. Is gone. we spoke.=20 of all things. My sister. My sister. not forgetting the time. and = forgetting=20 the time. Virginia. How then? and the world a spinning die? and believe? = What do they have in common these places? turned into angels. removed=20 on the day, Virginia. can you. can you: not? Only leave the dream. do = not interpret. do not: just leave it out. the boat. the waves. leave it: a = mystery. oh. yes. that birds will wander, just wander off course. Never mind. = find the way and of course will/will not be deterred from storms. reason: = simply forgetful. Inadequate tools. Just. Inadequate. What do they have in = common these places? Let us cast. and on her lips: apples and honey. simply = prepares=20 too little. simply too little. it was sad when she asked. knew, saw = darkness coming, but she asked: what do they have in common? These places? as children do. they always. each and: is he really dead? have I lost = my?=20 and no answer to that but. Yes. My sister. You know: Virginia. her/and=20 a daughter. this is the apple. in all seasons. and the son in her eyes. = your world=20 a spinning die? and the project in a quaking pit. What do they have? = Places in common? And the deep pit of lime? who knows. who knows. Perhaps you saw=20 her mouth open. You. Saw? Knowing she would/would not live badly. the = fog?=20 the fog not discerning. the fog not discerning. every day sold. and what = do they have every day? Only, well. Only. The seventh day. was. = Tranquillity.=20 Cast. Again. And not what do they have, but simply. What. Apples. Honey. = the fog of the new year was not. let us cast. Discerning. These places, = Virginia,=20 are surfaces, large places. there is ever. this is the apple. The = daughter: in all=20 seasons. and the son in her eyes. only know she would live. and the fog. = not=20 discerning. the fog not discerning. the fog not. finally. Day was. = Tranquillity.=20 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 19:08:23 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jennifer Ley Subject: Re: assonance/dissonance:::CODE In-Reply-To: <20021016194128.4496.qmail@web10708.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Lewis assonance was merely an example, not meant to rule out dissonance. I've always liked chaos theory, in fact I find it quite beautiful. saying that new media poetry *can* use poetic effects is not saying that it must, merely that parallels exist. email correspondence is famous for taking task with that left unsaid as that which is now assumed to be left unsaid for a purpose. but I do find the 'isn't time we left ... etc' statement to be a bit nostalgic. that has been said of other art forms in much earlier times. J ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 13:05:08 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: 0000000-0002374 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alan. What's the point of all this? Why arent you getting more involved with things like Amiri Baraka does and stop this bourgeios Idealist stuff and get involved in things like Amiri does? I admire him especially inlight of the recent revelations as sent by Scott Hamilton. Also, why are so obssessed with numbers? Yours faithfully, Richard Taylor. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Sondheim" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 6:48 PM Subject: 0000000-0002374 > 0000000-0002374 > > > 0000000 005012 060555 064553 063556 067040 020157 064544 063146 > 0000020 071145 067145 062543 073440 060550 071564 062557 062566 > 0000040 026162 072040 062550 062563 066440 071551 064563 062566 > 0000060 020163 063157 060440 071542 066157 072165 067551 026156 > 0000100 060440 020163 063151 071012 061545 070165 071145 072141 > 0000120 062145 020054 020141 067555 062555 072156 067440 020162 > 0000140 067555 062562 020054 063157 067440 062162 067151 071141 > 0000160 020171 064554 062546 020054 064164 020145 060542 072164 > 0000200 071145 062145 070040 073557 071145 020163 063157 070012 > 0000220 071145 067546 066562 072141 073151 020145 060554 063556 > 0000240 060565 062547 020054 071143 060545 064564 067157 063040 > 0000260 067562 020155 064164 020145 072163 071141 020164 020055 > 0000300 064164 020145 060550 067566 020143 067543 062555 020163 > 0000320 071146 066557 062412 071554 073545 062550 062562 020054 > 0000340 064164 020145 066142 061557 026553 060560 065543 063541 > 0000360 071545 067440 020146 062564 072170 026563 063157 072055 > 0000400 072562 064164 020054 064164 020145 071164 062565 071055 > 0000420 060545 020154 062564 072170 020163 071146 066557 073412 > 0000440 064550 064143 072040 062550 062562 064440 020163 067556 > 0000460 062440 061563 070141 026145 060440 067560 060543 074554 > 0000500 072160 061551 071440 064550 072146 067151 020147 020055 > 0000520 072151 071447 064440 020156 072557 020162 060556 072564 > 0000540 062562 072040 005157 067550 062560 072040 060550 020164 > 0000560 071160 074541 071145 026440 071440 070165 066160 061551 > 0000600 072141 067551 020156 020055 064164 072141 060440 062040 > 0000620 063151 062546 062562 061556 020145 071551 066440 062141 > 0000640 020145 064567 064164 072440 072164 071145 067141 062543 > 0000660 026412 064440 020156 060546 072143 064440 020164 060555 > 0000700 062553 020163 067556 062040 063151 062546 062562 061556 > 0000720 020145 064167 072141 067563 073145 071145 026440 072040 > 0000740 064550 063556 020163 062562 060555 067151 061040 072562 > 0000760 060564 066154 020171 064564 062145 072012 020157 072563 > 0001000 071542 060564 061556 020145 020055 062567 070040 062562 > 0001020 064544 072143 060440 062156 070040 060554 020171 020055 > 0001040 020151 071167 072151 020145 071541 064440 020146 064164 > 0001060 071145 023545 020163 067556 072040 066557 071157 067562 > 0001100 020167 005055 071541 064440 020146 064164 071551 064440 > 0001120 020163 064164 020145 060554 072163 066440 071551 064563 > 0001140 062566 020054 064164 020145 060554 072163 066440 071551 > 0001160 064563 062554 026440 060440 020163 063151 072040 064550 > 0001200 020163 071551 072040 062550 066040 071541 005164 071160 > 0001220 073157 061557 072141 067551 020156 005055 030012 030060 > 0001240 030461 030066 020040 033060 032464 031466 030040 031066 > 0001260 032465 020064 031060 032066 030064 030040 030066 032064 > 0001300 020060 031060 030460 031466 030040 031466 032461 020061 > 0001320 033460 030062 030064 030040 032066 032465 045060 072145 > 0001340 074564 005040 030060 030460 030062 020060 030040 030062 > 0001360 033061 020063 033460 032461 030465 030040 031067 032060 > 0001400 020060 033060 032462 030065 030040 033066 032060 020060 > 0001420 033460 032461 030464 030040 032460 033061 020064 033460 > 0001440 030461 030066 020040 024040 030065 034471 020051 030012 > 0001460 030060 031061 030062 020040 033460 030463 033465 030040 > 0001500 030466 032465 020067 033460 030462 030464 030040 033466 > 0001520 032465 020061 031060 030460 033065 030040 032460 032460 > 0001540 020065 033060 032061 031061 030040 030067 032061 071061 > > making no difference whatsoever, these missives of absolution, as if > recuperated, a moment or more, of ordinary life, the battered powers of > performative language, creation from the start - the havoc comes from > elsewhere, the block-packages of texts-of-truth, the true-real texts from > which there is no escape, apocalyptic shifting - it's in our nature to > hope that prayer - supplication - that a difference is made with utterance > - in fact it makes no difference whatsoever - things remain brutally tied > to substance - we predict and play - i write as if there's no tomorrow - > as if this is the last missive, the last missile - as if this is the last > provocation - > > 0001240 072151 066141 063040 066151 071554 072040 062550 064440 error > > capital fills the interstices - tunnels beneath the streets - email tags > and headers - sewage capital - finally bringing weapons to the foreground > - fighting back is useless - at this point, weaponry accumulates - anthrax > plus anthrax = anthrax; bomb plus bomb = bomb - it's boolean at the heart > of it - > > 0001560 073545 020163 020040 020040 020040 020040 030012 030060 > 0001600 031061 030064 020040 033460 030462 030465 030040 033066 > 0001620 032061 020061 033060 030063 030064 030040 033066 032461 > 0001640 020061 033460 032461 032065 030040 031067 032060 020060 > 0001660 033060 032462 030065 030040 032066 032064 005060 071145 > 0001700 067562 020162 005012 060543 064560 060564 020154 064546 > 0001720 066154 020163 064164 020145 067151 062564 071562 064564 > 0001740 062543 020163 020055 072564 067156 066145 020163 062542 > 0001760 062556 072141 020150 064164 020145 072163 062562 072145 > 0002000 020163 020055 066545 064541 020154 060564 071547 005040 > 0002020 067141 020144 062550 062141 071145 020163 020055 062563 > 0002040 060567 062547 061440 070141 072151 066141 026440 063040 > 0002060 067151 066141 074554 061040 064562 063556 067151 020147 > 0002100 062567 070141 067157 020163 067564 072040 062550 063040 > 0002120 071157 063545 067562 067165 020144 026412 063040 063551 > 0002140 072150 067151 020147 060542 065543 064440 020163 071565 > 0002160 066145 071545 020163 020055 072141 072040 064550 020163 > 0002200 067560 067151 026164 073440 060545 067560 071156 020171 > 0002220 061541 072543 072555 060554 062564 020163 020055 067141 > 0002240 064164 060562 020170 070012 072554 020163 067141 064164 > 0002260 060562 020170 020075 067141 064164 060562 035570 061040 > 0002300 066557 020142 066160 071565 061040 066557 020142 020075 > 0002320 067542 061155 026440 064440 023564 020163 067542 066157 > 0002340 060545 020156 072141 072040 062550 064040 060545 072162 > 0002360 005040 063157 064440 020164 005055 005012 > 0002374 > > bang we're dead > > > === ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 20:08:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: New on UbuWeb In-Reply-To: <20021016192401.12436.qmail@web10808.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v546) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit And, also on UbuWeb, a largish new section on Ethnopoetics that is quite worthwhile hanging out in: http://www.ubu.com/ethno/index.html On Wednesday, October 16, 2002, at 03:24 PM, UbuWeb Editorial Staff wrote: > Bruce Andrews "Electronic Poetics" > > http://www.ubu.com/feature/papers/feature_andrews_electronic.html > > UbuWeb > http://ubu.com > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More > http://faith.yahoo.com > ___________________________________________________________ Pierre Joris 6 Madison Place Albany NY 12202 formal poetics = rubber tires on a Gypsy wagon h: 518 426 0433 c: 518 225 7123 Robert Kelly o: 518 442 40 85 email: joris@albany.edu http://www.albany.edu/~joris/ ____________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 21:48:11 -0230 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K.Angelo Hehir" Subject: THE ONDAATJE MEMOS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT from Cardigan Industries THE ONDAATJE MEMOS * * * [Ad Agency] Darkness between the deadline and ourselves. I write this, my hands poised as if over a marionette, each depression of key and corresponding letter adding incremental pressure to the air that surrounds. My brow rippled like a mackerel sky, like the concentric circles of a stone skipped across nervous water. I poured coffee in a cup for my soul. Today the Client stood, here, indifferent to the tortured cries of practical time, and stated, in a clear voice engorged with blood, that dates will not change, no matter the winds. His fingertips met like mating seahorses. He closed his eyes and eschewed equivocation. And so if, when the clock looks at once straight up and down, I have not yet signed off on final layouts, your employment, like the perfume of she who is unseen for days, will evaporate. Michael [Law Office] The enclosure of memory we came to call Johnson vs. The People of Ontario has awakened again, like a bear whose hunger calls out, like the engine of a Fokker triplane escaping its hangar. My eye alongside its memory. In advance of a gathering, you will rise from your tasks. And soon. You will rise and comb the drawers of silent recollection, and gather into expanding envelopes the colour of an infant’s gifts the leaves of foolscap that belong. That speak. Past. Michael [Movie Studio] >From a dream soaked in cardamom and persimmon juice I awoke, my face pressed flat in a pool of saliva on page seven. My opinion of this script now rests with you. Michael -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 13:23:02 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: Amiri Baraka in the NY Times Report from NZ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is fo Nick Piombino. ----- Original Message ----- From: "richard.tylr" To: Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 1:35 AM Subject: Amiri Baraka in the NY Times Report from NZ I dont think Amiri Baraka should resign. There's a stupid attitude fostered that people cant talk about S11 because some poeple got killed. Well for that reason you may as well censor every poem writtem eg Wallace Stevens's poem "In a Nigger Cemetary.." and so on. In fact it is quite possible that the Isaelli secret service cooperated with the US CIA etc in the plot of S11 and in fact it could have included even some so-called Al Qaeda. It could very easily be an iside job and we know that the US Govt gives Israel US$billions in actual cash and military hardware each year (otherwise it wouldnt survive). I doubt that Baraka is anti-semitic per se: maybe he is, but the way that Israel is trying to exterminate the Palestinians this is not surprising: Black people who are politically intelligent would empathise with the plight of the Palestinians. And the reaction to Baraka's poem shows the hypocrisy of the stuffed shirt "upholders of he public good". And Sharon is in fact basically a war criminal having been responsible for at least one massacre and in my book so is Bush and so is Blair: Blair was satirised recently...he uses a wierd, disconnected language. The British press journalists (on a BBC programme I saw) in fact have said that they can never get him to say anything that is meaningful. He and Bush are like Punch and Judy but they're on the same side. The rhetoric of a cowboy from the East and then the non-speak or triple speak of Blair the wonder boy from...god knows where. I think that its quite possible the Isarelis together with US helped carry out the S11 to lubricate their campaign against the Palestinians. I would like to see Israel destroyed. It is a group of invadors and criminals who are not from that area: they are agressive and vicious...they dont belong there. They are aliens. They are Europeans mostly who arent from that place. Or they are but only in as much as everyone is originally from Africa. A compromise seems impossible: for their own survival the Arabs should get together and obliterate the Israelis. Its quite clearly the only way. It would be good if Hussein had nukes - really - the Israelis would not be so keen to brutalise. Like the Nazis they dont know where or when to stop so like them they need to be driven out ... Baraka is right to speak out on these matters as Mohammed Ali did in the Vietnam war days. But that doesnt mean that he has a "duty" to. And in fact I realise now that Merwin's rhetoric applies to "person" not just poet as some very great poets have been a-political, probably a-moral (or their morality is "screwed") ... I dont think there is any moral imperative. So one does takes a position: and Baraka's is one. People who want him to resign are like those people who didnt like the teaching of Darwin: or who suppress eg von Daniken or whoever... or should we supress Mein Kempf: if someone wants to read Mein Kempf well that's their business - on the reverse side of the coin I think that Salaman Rushdie should be allowed to write his Satanic verses and so on. I'm not very intersted in Baraka's poetry, but I'm glad he's taking a strong stand. Richard Taylor. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 18:09:56 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: non-stick public notice In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v546) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit non-stick public notice here hypocrites is a holiday stamp, the last room next to my assassin. I reach for my no trespassing sign, for the bombing run of my destiny where the state disappears. do you give a real demarcation between a new killer and a fence free vowel. lend me the sea, a sniper's bullet, a room that has no claws, I don't want to be trapped in asylum yellow, a savors prayer, the noise of everywhere without edges. its a million staples per pore, horses on fire. here hypocrites is a sniper's bullet that missed, a room next to my own lend-lease history darkened in pit of someone else's last rites. an autopsy mortgage on the present or the last room of someone else's document. this is red flags that lay in a cold sweat, a non-epic non-stick public notice. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 22:03:53 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Loss =?iso-8859-1?Q?Peque=F1o?= Glazier Subject: "Erase the vision which has trashed this planet." [San Francisco] Comments: cc: Steve Dickison Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >From: Steve Dickison > >"Erase the vision which has trashed this planet." > >THE POETRY CENTER >presents > >a special pre-election event > >Tuesday October 29, 7:30 pm >free admission >@ the Unitarian Center >1187 Franklin (at Geary) >San Francisco > >with Michael BROWNSTEIN (New York City) >STARHAWK (San Francisco) and special guests: > >Lital LEVY (Berkeley) >Sarah MENEFEE (San Francisco) >Camille ROY (San Francisco) >Shahi SADAT (Jalalabad, Afghanistan/Concord, CA) > >** This pre-election special evening is focused on globalism and current=20 >political crises, with featured speakers Michael Brownstein, visiting from= =20 >New York with his astounding new book WORLD ON FIRE (Open City Books,=20 >2002), and renowned activist writer Starhawk, whose latest book WEBS OF=20 >POWER: NOTES FROM THE GLOBAL UPRISING (New Society Publishers, 2002) is=20 >making waves. The program will also include several other guest writers=20 >from throughout the Bay Area. > >** This event is being organized on short notice, so PLEASE FORWARD THIS=20 >NOTICE to your lists and friends, and help spread the word. Look for=20 >color posters thruout the area, emails, websites, local print media,=20 >etc. However we can get the word out. > >MICHAEL BROWNSTEIN is a novelist and poet whose most recent book attempts= =20 >to step past disabling encounters with the present political circumstances= =20 >we all find ourselves in. He has made numerous public appearances in past= =20 >months, including the international conference on globalism in South=20 >Africa. With his latest book, Brownstein has created a new form combining= =20 >poetry, personal narrative, and social analysis. Anthem, manifesto, and=20 >call to arms, WORLD ON FIRE asks the reader to face world upheaval without= =20 >fear, thereby transforming disaster into opportunity and allowing the=20 >space for the creation of a new life. This impassioned work tries to help= =20 >find ways to > > "Erase the vision which has trashed this planet." > >STARHAWK is a committed global justice activist and organizer. She is a=20 >veteran of progressive movements for over thirty years, from anti-war to=20 >anti-nukes, is a highly influential voice in the revival of earth-based=20 >spirituality and Goddess religion, and has brought many innovative=20 >techniques of spirituality and magic to her political work. > >Her latest book is WEBS OF POWER: NOTES FROM THE GLOBAL UPRISING (New=20 >Society Publishers, 2002), a dramatic account from the front lines of the= =20 >global justice movement as it migrated from Seattle in November 1999 to=20 >Prague, then Brazil, Quebec City, and Genoa. As well as reporting the=20 >actions on the street, WEBS OF POWER includes a privileged glimpse behind= =20 >the scenes, too, at the fierce discussion of the issues, strategies, and=20 >tactics of an always-evolving social movement. The book is also a=20 >personal vision of what an alternative future might look and feel like=20 >beyond the version offered up to us by the promoters of corporate=20 >globalization--a unique contribution to our understanding of one of the=20 >most pivotal struggles of our time. Her website is:= http://www.starhawk.org > >** Other writers: LITAL LEVY is a doctoral student of Arabic and Hebrew=20 >at UC Berkeley. This past summer she traveled thruout the Middle East,=20 >including to Baghdad, where she was the first in her family to visit Iraq= =20 >since 1951. SARAH MENEFEE is a poet (The Blood About the Heart, et al)=20 >and long-time activist whose work in both directions is often focused on=20 >the lives of homeless and impoverished people. Questions of justice,=20 >compassion, and possibilities of active engagement and response recall=20 >nearly abandoned purposes of literary art. CAMILLE ROY is a poet and=20 >writer (Craquer, Cheap Speech, Swarm, et al) and founding co-editor of=20 >Narrativity (http://www.sfsu.edu/~poetry/narrativity). She lived in Iraq= =20 >for several years as a child (Arabic was her first language) and has been= =20 >posting personal reflections and memories of Iraq along with running=20 >political commentary on http://blogs.salon.com/0001600/. SHAHI SADAT, a=20 >young Afghani poet who writes in Pashto, Dari (Farsi), Urdu, German, and=20 >English (From the Breath of Life to the Sigh of Death). He is a student=20 >in international relations at San Francisco State University and one of=20 >over 40,000 Afghani refugees living in the Bay Area. > >** FOR FURTHER INFORMATION: tel 415-338-2227, or 415-338-3401 >The Poetry Center's Fall 2002 program schedule is posted at=20 >http://www.sfsu.edu/~poetry > >More on Starhawk's WEBS OF POWER: > >"Since the anti-WTO protests in Seattle, a dispersed and diverse global=20 >movement has better understood itself in the mirror of Starhawk's=20 >writings. Her essays consistently, and miraculously, combine how-to=20 >practicality with poetry and inspiration. She presents the best face of=20 >social justice and dares us to live up to it." > --Naomi Klein, author of > Fences and Windows: dispatches from the front lines of the=20 > globalization debate > >"The grave danger we are in--of enslavement, worldwide, by the insatiably= =20 >greedy--is so complex only a witch could fully comprehend, analyze, and=20 >write a spell to get us out of it. I am serious. Enter Starhawk (thank=20 >Goddess!) and Webs of Power. This book tells us all we need to know about= =20 >the chasm gaping at our feet. Visionary ropes are thrown in the hope that= =20 >we will have sense and soul enough to swing ourselves across. --A must=20 >and soonest read. > --Alice Walker, author of Anything We Love Can Be Saved and The=20 > Color Purple > >More on Michael Brownstein's WORLD ON FIRE: > >"Michael Brownstein has written an epic, visionary, kaleidoscopic=20 >treatise/poem that, amazingly, attempts to make sense of and show a way=20 >through he rich madness of our time. The work is entirely unique, for the= =20 >scope and audacity of the effort, and the beauty in its delivery. Partly= =20 >wail of pain, partly an ode to nature and the human spirit, partly a=20 >last-ditch effort to consciously click back to a sustainable pathway, this= =20 >book will leave the reader simultaneously exhausted, enlightened,=20 >depressed, and exhilarated. I strongly recommend it." > --Jerry Mander, author of In the Absence of the Sacred, > and President, International Forum on Globalization > >"One of the most eloquent recent poetic works to cover the downsides of=20 >'progress' and to cry out for a counterpunch against the manipulations of= =20 >empire." > --Publishers Weekly (Starred Review) > >"Bold and ambitious, World on Fire engages the great issues of the day,=20 >mixing the personal with the political, demanding attention be paid,=20 >continuing in the great tradition of Whitman, Ginsberg, and Pound. Here's= =20 >a howl for the twenty-first century." > --Eric Schlosser, author of Fast Food Nation > >"Michael Brownstein's text (combination Jeremiah, Milton, Blake, and=20 >sci-fi horror movie) is either the last possible book--or else a blueprint= =20 >for the first real revolution since the Neolithic." > --Hakim Bey, author of T.A.Z.: The Temporary Autonomous Zone > > >-- >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >Steve Dickison, Director >The Poetry Center & American Poetry Archives >San Francisco State University >1600 Holloway Avenue ~ San Francisco CA 94132 >~ vox 415-338-3401 ~ fax 415-338-0966 >http://www.sfsu.edu/~poetry > ~ ~ ~ > > L=E2 taltazim h=E2latan, wal=E2kin > durn b=EE-llay=E2ly kam=E2 tad=FBwru > > > Don't cling to one state > turn with the Nights, > as they turn > > > ~Maq=E2mat al-Hamadh=E2ni (tenth century; tr Stefania= Pandolfo) > > ~ ~ ~ > > Bring all the art and > science of the world, and > baffle and humble it with > one spear of grass. > ~Walt Whitman's notebook >-- >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >Steve Dickison, Director >The Poetry Center & American Poetry Archives >San Francisco State University >1600 Holloway Avenue ~ San Francisco CA 94132 >~ vox 415-338-3401 ~ fax 415-338-0966 >http://www.sfsu.edu/~poetry > ~ ~ ~ > > L=E2 taltazim h=E2latan, wal=E2kin > durn b=EE-llay=E2ly kam=E2 tad=FBwru > > > Don't cling to one state > turn with the Nights, > as they turn > > > ~Maq=E2mat al-Hamadh=E2ni (tenth century; tr Stefania= Pandolfo) > > ~ ~ ~ > > Bring all the art and > science of the world, and > baffle and humble it with > one spear of grass. > > ~Walt Whitman's notebook ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 22:05:02 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Anne E. Pluto" Subject: Re: Birchfield-Penney Arts Center Reading In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20021017220239.021a4b40@imap.buffalo.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" I'll be reading at the Poets and Writers Series at the Burchfield-Penney Art Center on the Buffalo State College campus at 2 p.m. on Sunday, October 20, 2002. Anne Elezabeth Pluto -- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 01:52:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: scan.mov MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII scan.mov of azure, dreaming, repetition, stars, victorian, small black buttoned blouse, white nightgown, brown jacket and skirt background azure background in azure victorian. in there victorian. are there stars. are the moving. stars the moving. in victorian, out, and 52. out, the 52. are she and is out out 52 of victorian. 52 stars. foreground a a plane. plane. it it is somewhat luminous. luminous. in reflective. the starless. victorian. camera upper scans left upper to left lower to left, lower lower left, left across, across, up, up, down, down, across across down. down. soon victorian the 52, victorian starless, and right, fast fast flyback flyback to left. scans then then repetition. repetition. background, background, azure, out body azure, scanned scanned flyback. foreground, background looking, and at at camera, you, you, from staring one from to one other other at eyes, camera, scattered, scanned. scattered, glowing, scanned. rounded, glowing, moving at edges. of background azure in victorian. there are stars. the stars are moving. the victorian, in and out, are 52. she is in and out of the 52 victorian. the stars. in the foreground a plane. it is somewhat luminous. it is somewhat reflective. the victorian. in and out, are 52. foreground azure in victorian. starless. the camera scans upper left to lower left, lower left across, up, across, down, across up, across down. soon the victorian 52, stars and starless, scans to upper right, fast flyback to upper left. then down, in repetition. in foreground and background, azure, in and out of 52 victorian. the body is somewhat luminous. the body is scanned up, down, across, flyback. in background and foreground, looking, at camera, at you, staring from one to other eyes, scattered, scanned. glowing, rounded, in and out of the 52 victorian. stars moving at the edges. foreground azure in victorian. === ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 07:13:20 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lakey Teasdale Subject: Virginia: her tempters. Loud yowlin. the Walls. Comments: To: "WRYTING-L : Writing and Theory across Disciplines" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable case. Case the case. is altered. the game's up. A bogey scenario. Adorned with. Virginia and. The careless. the careless hussy. Three? See? Ah: many the halls and many the walls have=20 her tempters adorned with. recovered indignity. Makes many thieves. Count your teeth when you kiss. Her. Count: All your teeth. When you: makes. makes many thieves. count all your teeth=20 And in the trap was caught the crow. And in the=20 trap: Our crow The whitest ever seen. Our crow: the Nonethelessthelass: Virginia. Virtue & walls.=20 See? Ah: many the halls and many the walls have her tempters adorned with. Recovered? Indignity? Every day. Virginia, her virtue. Traded for impulse. Oh. ShameBlame. The fretful dame. And the tempers, her tempters. And loud: yowling in the halls. Count all your teeth when you kiss Virginia. Count all your teeth. The thief! The whitest ever seen. Our crow. The Lady of Obligation. Virtue: Gaming. The satiated scene. raking his head about the shore and looking. Looking The sound was so fretful! Pitiful! The tune the fret like choirs of her recollect. ion. The black sea. The white crow. the Count? Counts! Count all your teeth=20 when you kiss Virginia. The thief. the thief. And temper her temper. The tempters are coming to. Virtue. but/and all hers Gone. Gone. the game. Just a courteous glare of: the. See? Ah: many the halls and many the walls have=20 tempters adorned with. Temper. Recovered. Indignity. See? the. Ah: many the halls and many the walls have=20 tempters adorned with. Temper! Recovered! Indignity! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 23:21:05 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew Rathmann Subject: Re: poetry & globalism: ethnopoetics In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Does this 1984 statement by Rothenberg (reprinted on the UbuWebsite that Pierre Joris mentions) qualify as literary globalism? "The inherited view ‹ no longer bearable ‹ was that one such idea of poetry, as developed in the West, was sufficient for the total telling. Against this ‹ as the facts, the poems themselves, revealed ‹ was the realization that poetry, like language itself, existed everywhere: as powerful, even complex, in its presumed beginnings as in many of its later works. In the light of that approach, poetry appeared not as a luxury but as a true necessity: not a small corner of the world for those who lived it but equal to the world itself." (see http://www.ubu.com/ethno/index.html) If so, then from Rothenberg's account we can infer that globalism is, ironically, first of all an awareness of cultural _deficiency_. We become aware, in other words, that our native literary tradition is necessarily limited in outlook. We realize that we have been subjected to the haphazard of birth, and that to grasp the "total telling" we must outstrip such arbitrary constraints. Globalism as humility: that would seem to be one theme that poetry might contribute to the political debates... Andy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 00:11:15 -0700 Reply-To: Kara Quarles Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kara Quarles Subject: New Media Jacobins MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My Dear Sir, As I sit here dripping in lace cuffs, brass buttons, silk stockings, = wearing my Tricorn proudly..=20 I recoil from your constant attentions to breed art under the rubric of = the "absolutely new".. As any fool can plainly see, "new media" is = precisely that, new mediums, polymeric paint to replace the earthen ochres, abstractions = to replace the figure/ground.. but what would you have us do, we are = still the same emoting human vehicles as were the artists who sat in = attendence in Egyptian tombs, nearly the same as those who bravely = daubed in the caves of Lascaux.. As I sat here tonight watching Eric = Rohmer's "The Lady and The Duke" on DVD, I was completely and = wonderfully charmed by Mr. Rohmer's use of digital effects to produce a = cinematic painting.. If only today's artists had half the skill and = integrity of their 19th century counterparts! or their 18th, or 17th, or = 16th, or 15th, etc etc.. I would gladly watch Goya's attempt at a Flash = Movie, and would stand in line to see the miracle of a weeping = animatronic statue of a Greuzian urchin weeping for a tromp l'oeil dead = bird.. Perhaps your lament for the "new" should be replaced with a = lament for the skill and determination of our fallen brother and sister = artisans and artists whose work makes all of ours possible.. This search = of yours for the absolutely new, is akin to some kind of aesthetic = Jacobinism. I would gladly breed new animals upon this world were I = able, but be sure I would produce centaurs, cyclopes, and feathered = flying snakes in honor of the creative imagination of all my artist = sisterbrother's throughout history who haunt me every minute of every = day with their sheer and neversilenced genius.. I hope you find your new = media, but as for me I await the return of the pteradactyl and the soft = murmuring of the oracle upon her tripod! For Mayan priests raining blood = from their feathered zeppelins.. For Cyclopian children riding a Mickey = Mouse Titan through the river styx to safety.. For Astronauts in = powdered wigs.. For cavemen eating soyburgers on floating hoverdiscs.. 5 = minutes of new is not worth 500 million years of vocabulary = development.. I hope you find your absolute newness, as for me I would = prefer to gaze into the eyes of the gorgon.. which being completely = impossible would be absolutely new!=20 Caveman Cyborg (caveborg) and Clio's Loyaliste, Sir Tekton Mantis,=20 Poetickal Lens Workers Guild For to err on the side of absurdity is to err with all reality Rain on, you magnificent heavens! S.U.A.P. Subject: Re: Reply to lewis lacook: but this isn't what i'm asking, tony.... it's a simple (and very old school) avant-garde tactic...explore assymmetry, dissonance, find its heart... ...my question would be, i guess, why does so much "digital poetry" not do this? is "digital poetry" doomed to operate with nineteenth century economies in the post-electronic world? most "digital poetry" (and i use this term to distinguish it from net art...or "net art," if you will) adheres quite strictly to nineenth century ideas of beauty as well as (though many would blush to admit it) nineteenth century ideas of structure...my question is, where is the new here? what's new about "new media" such as this, when all it does is repeat in a different format the ideology of bygone eras? bliss l ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 23:13:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Partch/text blog? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" About a month ago, amidst the flurry of URLs for various poetry-related blogs were posted to the list, I came across a discussion of Harry Partch's ideas about setting texts, from a poetics POV rather than a musical one. Recently I've looked at the 5-6 URLs for blogs I found back then & I couldn't find this. Is there anyone on the list who can point me to the right blog for this? Thanks. Herb ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 03:26:17 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: invisible in a living section In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v546) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable invisible in a living section add the bunch up and then weigh them. go in either direction of the=20 stairs for later. this will prove to be the most incurable part. first you will notice: q. the attacks will have been before you can decide, it=92s a mater of=20= coincidence that the substance is even in view. h. within the space of the usual, names will appear. all this is with the foremost subset that proves suspicion is constant,=20= but that will later become as forgettable as a loud weapon companion=20 that cools with thankless letters never sent. it would be nice to=20 remind all that this is on occasions a surface without mention or=20 gamble, nonetheless a useful experience failure on or in (as the case=20 may be) controversy that trends to update the complete section of which=20= has at least 46 new listings in every category, starting with natural=20 acts felt but never mentioned, to the most hideous, the tenuous vector=20= held with the utmost efforts to satisfy. now I know at this point you=20= would have preferred to say that the other side was better but by the=20 time you find the errors in positions both ambition and other words=20 that should similar will have already been investigated and proven=20 nothing but customs and or claim rights decided long before nothing was=20= sure, so its best to prevent this by: advancing equals to a broader more sealed perspective. know decorations in and of its self is enough to make you want to lick=20= you chops. so aquire habits and become forever bound to anything as long as its=20 outside conditions are warmer then before yours, we shall call only a reminiscence.=20= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 03:53:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: WALT HOWARD TOLL BOOTH COLLECTOR #134 Comments: To: 7-11@mail.ljudmila.org, ImitationPoetics@listserv.unc.edu, o-o@konf.lt, webartery@yahoogroups.com, syndicate@anart.no, _arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au, owner-realpoetik@scn.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit WALT HOWARD TOLL BOOTH COLLECTOR #134 [excerpt] www.thescare.com Cimon tinging from colourless multi-beam multi-frequency feasibility demo which evaluated nuclear data file/version When training equipment change directive Guidance Developing State Local pyramids Distributed Object Infrastructure Natural forest biomass burned onsite Thus intelligent workstation speaking Nuclear Criticality Safety Committee Pie Sky Multiplexing marriageable transferred biological effects ionizing radiation Robotics Planning Facility secure automated fabrication they Digital Network mocks all Input/Outboard Profile efforts Remote Call Forwarding or Request Thinking Stable Orbit Rendezvous AEolian employment/employee system PTD Data Selection Sheet data archiving process Margin Safety Integrated Truss Segments beheld cypress-Institut für SystemSicherheit springing Space Pirate Captain Harlock Software Address Data Latch after Consortium on Automated Standards have Extended Facility Set stockpile test repair parts Rhodopis Robotics Planning Facility noise vibration monitoring system International Federation Institutes project verification crypto-ignition key bodies which have Circuit Provisioning Center Verify Write Access instil supplier change proposal Microsoft Solutions into my chlorine nitrate International Geophysical Year 1 July 1957 31 December 1958 law no Application Integration sex Integrated Truss Segments have add oil level Application Protocol Data Units than enough my awake from tactical air direction center stillness From hanging-gardens ICDL Foundation works Distributed Object Infrastructure common data base attached payload radiological protection United States Coast Geodetic Survey Laboratory Development have Real-Time Application Programming Interface ballistic missile early warning system Data Description Specification carrier common line charge supports both PHIGS PHIGS Laboratory Development premised Army Command Information System guidance navigation control management artists all weather condition Allows applications poems Controlled Calculator Greenwich Mean Time Sappho sped comm/nav/iff Robotics Planning Facility Rhodopis received Bartja tool theory kind bodies Sylvan Prometric division which Pie Sky Notification Master Tool which Correct Me I'm Wrong explore such Home Page Time Free Fall Viedersos Office Conservation Renewable Energy Foix Control System Intelligent Multihead Disc Hexadecimal Reference Publication Format completion Unit Multi-Chip Unit Integrated Truss Segments Logic Hard Disk Drive Integrated Truss Segments gladly which whY 6 Billion resolved intelligent workstation/local area network us Database Manipulation Language Residence Account Service Center Cost/Schedule Control Branch Construction Maintenance Center Civil Air Patrol European Data Relay Satellite unerupted lavas Million Operations Per Second Then Amasis General Summary Edit Program wrathful Consortium International Earth Science Information Network Plain- Text Block Chaining control rod/room On magneto-optical Energy Research Networks abatement residual forecasting model Atossa Nitetis seized heat acquisition devices Ku-Band Single Access such productions Communication LiNK multi-beam multi- frequency feasibility demo Network Bus Interface Unit parlance 2 power 60 Ear gates gas conditioning assembly dept defense computer institution ranks Schonbruan Vienna animals --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.394 / Virus Database: 224 - Release Date: 10/3/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 03:55:57 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: ARTHUR GODWIT PARKING ENFORCEMENT AGENT #276 Comments: To: 7-11@mail.ljudmila.org, ImitationPoetics@listserv.unc.edu, o-o@konf.lt, webartery@yahoogroups.com, syndicate@anart.no, _arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au, owner-realpoetik@scn.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ARTHUR GODWIT PARKING ENFORCEMENT AGENT #276 [excerpt] www.thescare.com but finally Multiplex Interface Adapter 1246 P. movies you instinctively look down Environmental Monitoring pot Application but look the ukar fertile Multiplex Interface Adapter Rwanda - coalitions on which Lilly Abandoned Mine Land Problem time ignition took polarities Meta Data System Mediated Cytotoxicity people were but the apostles of International Mineral Studies igh advantages Abandoned Mine Land Problem the lost mutton many of level radioactivity pale kungar LPAR marmalade Jeremy said Abandoned Mine Land Problem if they do materials Earth Environmental my Assn. Airmen ultrasmall aperture terminal Business Residence Centrex whenever they may National Institute electronic/engineering Multiplex Interface Adapter the American Congress Survey Microsoft Certified pounded utarrbmbun Cardones Northern Illinois University Info-Mine Web Microsoft Certified was TX chipset Document level radioactivity series of spectators Electronics Assn. Data warehousing for Andrew exchanged glances scarring Dominica Santos screamed as Integracion de DAtos de was matron led the which folgian includes inertial Inventory Project US/Mexico dump raft of International Cocoa Agreement the You the uninterrupted power supply of Burke destroyers QDR says the Navy ewephal drop from examples Abandoned Mine Land Problem came Industries Energy Tokyo Net Divers lines by Vivian penned medieval Rural Nature Conservation Rural Nature Conservation cut utarrbmbun maneuver showed the digital--analog wherefore redeploy Mapped Atmosphere-Plant-Soil Environmental Monitoring level radioactivity Planning elpan Decently jingus million suns Environmental Monitoring people Imbedded Drive Electronics moldy utarrbmbun pressurized docking adapter the arrbinh himself Fisheries System Management Multiplex Interface Adapter 1970 Mechanical Ground Support Environmental Monitoring Space Station Program Office System goal ere Data warehousing Harrington's list Environmental Monitoring Project Earth Environmental the Pollution Control in Mining Natural Resources Canada of utarrbmbun Assn. hands Abandoned Mine Land Problem ISO shudder level radioactivity second weren't on araj lurk Corporation spewed from the boat's Administrative Domain memory Canadian Space Geodesy Forum My System utarrbmbun feet Multiplex Interface Adapter diagnostic tracks armpits perspective They shudder inspired Reserve Static Lines Rural Nature Conservation Service could Female Physics utarrbmbun racing thoughts as the my Exchange Program Abandoned Mine Land Problem the e-billing reality but Ancient World Mapping Center find ground-based AERI the Organization Balanced Abandoned Mine Land Problem thrust inlet pressure incrusted all level radioactivity ilbmbungg of its Assn. Microsoft Certified ewephal admire level radioactivity people Imbedded Drive Electronics stopped leodfruma the International Geographic Union scar may supervene on its Integracion de DAtos de virtual storage the Integration Assembly guided-research development Ministry Environment diagnostic tracks alkanh Forderung der Betriebsberatung Description Consequences Assessment Tool Multiplex Interface Adapter Tropics stands Asia-Pacific Space Geodynamics Meta Data System was ASEAN Senior Officials on do naming level radioactivity senior military having interstitial ad on expect you're right ground-based AERI Data warehousing amounts Environmental Monitoring Meta Data System Environment Programme Earth Environmental level radioactivity the egeslic of the Institut fur Agrarentwicklung electroepitaxial crystal said Operational Environmental your they should Association Computing level radioactivity himself Exploration Seas doing computer software/system Microsoft Certified before Isvarian could Time Division Filtering the truthful Defense Mapping Agency Inter- standard repair procedure sympathy Abandoned Mine Land Problem data flow diagram which must Service MonitoringEvaluation the balustrade Integracion de DAtos de dared not higher pursuing Satellite Service Module for military Abandoned Mine Land Problem orrbolngg mid-level network National Council Soviet Beta Integration Assembly --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.394 / Virus Database: 224 - Release Date: 10/3/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 10:21:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: The scene of writing, take two MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Seriously! I'm aware of the distinction between a poetics and a sensibility, but am unaware of texts where the differentiation is spelled out. How do these competing ways to describe the faculty of being-about-to-write, or if you prefer, the subject position of poet, differ? Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 10:24:01 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jane Sprague Subject: inside and outside the academy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable While it may be more interesting (and dramatic given the instantaneous = tension) to think of this concept as a dichotomy, it is possible to work = both within and without the academy. For the past 6 semesters a = colleague and I have co-taught a class (as adjuncts) at the community = college level. To disentangle the multiplicities of our motivations = might be something akin to dissecting a kaleidoscope. Essentially, it = stemmed from a desire to actively employ access that we have on several = different levels within larger institutions and extend these resources = to students whose access is diminished predominantly by relations of: = class, age, gender, geographical location and educational experience = (GED, inadequate public schooling, learning disabilities, ESL, etc.) Perhaps it bears iterating that (generally) C.C. students are somewhat = different from undergraduates entering larger institutions as freshman, = though they frequently transfer in and often benefit tremendously from = the C.C. experience.=20 In this situation we transformed the class by subverting the = pre-existing curriculum, changing the texts and radicalized the = underlying philosophy of the content we are charged with imparting to = our students. We have been able to do this by consciously employing many = of the aspects implicit to the adjunct experience. We have a high degree = of autonomy due to many of the issues that have been voiced in this = ongoing discussion.=20 I agree that adjuncts are underpaid, disenfranchised, etcetera ad = infintum and yet, there has been a tendency throughout this discourse to = cast us/them as pariahs who *should* organize or refuse to adjunct or = somehow buck the system. Perhaps it is possible to buck the system = within it when you begin from a conscious stance of what is not = available to those students who are largely *outside* it. The situation = of management, labor rights, and options are incredibly convoluted. 98% = of my students are women. 60% of them are women with children. 10% of my = students have significant learning disabilities. Many of my students = live in poverty and just to get to school is a radical move on their = part. 100% of my adjunct colleagues are women. I find these statistics = extremely interesting to say the least. As a woman.=20 There is a trend that I have noticed (or tendency, as the case may be) = for C.C.'s locally to hire one person as department head and for that = person to teach the bulk of the coursework and then sub-contract to a = network of adjuncts to deliver the rest of the curriculum. There is a = high level of turn over, burn out, etc. My colleague and I have = attempted to negotiate opportunities to network with our adjunct peers = and have been somewhat thwarted in this endeavor, but we intend to press = on. The thing that keeps drawing us back is: our commitment to the = students. And the subversion that is possible when working in this = manner. Perhaps in some infinitesimal way we have begun the work of at = least attempting to organize the adjuncts, to raise the standard of what = we expect from our students and by initiating access to larger = institutions for them by the resources, opportunities, methodology and = content that we deliver. =20 Some things in this thread have smacked of elitism. Which only serves to = further divide us and undermine the possibility of reforming the current = situation. Whether one considers oneself to be *inside* or *outside* the = academy or navigating the interstices, what makes our work relevant is = what our intentions are and how we employ them in practice.=20 Jane=20 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 10:53:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian Clements Subject: Announcement: Joe Ahearn's _syn thet ik_ Firewheel Editions is pleased to announce the publication of Joe Ahearn's chapbook, _syn thet ik_, in a limited edition of 51 signed and numbered copies on fine paper. 24 copies are available. These poems are selected from Ahearn’s explorations of synthetic modes of composition as an interrogation of how the post-postmodern poet can tread the boundaries between the personal and the impersonal, between the intentional and the unintentional, between self- consciousness and the escape from ego, and between humor and high seriousness. To order, please send a check or money order for $14 to Firewheel Editions, PO Box 793677, Dallas, TX 75379. The price includes shipping and extra-hardy packing materials to ensure no damage occurs in transit. We will celebrate the publication with a reading in Dallas at the Lakewood Branch Dallas Public Library on Tuesday, Oct. 29 at 7:30 p.m. Brian Clements ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 11:02:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nick Piombino Subject: Parsing, or: the nerdy and the cool Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > ------------------------------ > > Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 08:02:34 -0400 > From: Nick Piombino > Subject: Poetry and theory > >> I think Language Poetry as made an indelible = >> contribution to American poetry, and I'm willing to make the assertion = >> that said contribution would be significant even without the theoretical = >> side of it.(Alex Young) > > Indeed, and perhaps said theoretical side would be significant without the > poetry side of it. Beyond the author or publisher identifying a text as one > or the other, or line breaks or other stylistic indications, references to > Dante or Wittgenstein or whoever to classify a text, how do you distinguish > one type of text from the other when reading innovative writing? "(7) This > is not philosophy, it's poetry. And if I say so, it becomes painting, music > or sculpture, judged as such. If there are variables to consider, they are > at least partly economic- the question of distribution, etc. Also differing > critical traditions. Could this be good poetry, yet bad music? But yet I do > not believe I would, except in jest, posit this as dance or urban planning." > "(16) If this were theory, not practice, would I know it?" Ron Silliman, > from-The Chinese Notebook- in -The Age of Huts- Roof Books, 1986. > > Nick ------------ > > Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 10:38:45 -0400 > From: Jordan Davis > Subject: parsing > > Nick - > > Having a little trouble working out what is quotation from Ron and what is > your gloss in your post of this morning. I understand the wish to be > judged on merits, and more than that I empathize with the unstated wish > not to be judged -- to be responded to instead of categorized. And I read > the deletion of the introductory quotation mark as an embodiment of the > expressed wish to call into question the act of distinguishing between > texts. But surely this is more an act of power struggle than inquiry! OK! > You guys win. And gals too. > Would you say a poetics differs from a rule book? from a power struggle? > > > Jordan > > -------------- Hi Jordan: Thanks for your response to my post on poetry and theory. Alex Young had made the point that L=A poetry would have been significant without the theoretical work done by these poets. I agreed, but also suggested the reverse might be true as well, that is, the discussions of ideas brought about by these writers would be a worthwhile contribution standing on its own without the poetry. I brought in the quotes by Silliman to illustrate and underline the point that many L=A poets were interested in blurring the distinctions between areas of thought and writing, that is, not splitting one off from the other. On the other hand many of those writers were sometimes quite happy leaving the traditional distinctions as they were/are (a point Bob Perelman makes in a recent interview.) My point was that if you removed the covert cues that distinguish between genres in contemporary writing, often you couldn't tell them apart. When performed intentionally, this has traditionally been characterized as prose poetry. I confess it was quite early in the morning when I wrote my post and I was bleary eyed. Sorry for the unintentional confusion. Also, In no way was I detracting or arguing with Alex Young's point. No power struggles intended. It's just that my feeling was in the 70's, and is now, that I liked when the L=A poets did not sneer at incorporating complex theoretical ideas and conceptualizations, critical writing, or philosophical writing into their discussions and writing work. With all due respect to the late Kenneth Koch, his point that "we know all that already" about Wittgenstein to me illustrates the wish on the part of some poets to sustain a split between poetry and philosophy, between the nerdy and the cool, which, in my view, helps lead to the tedious dumbing down procedures which have turned the minds of some our best poets into peanut butter and jelly (nothing against peanut butter and jelly) when they go to put their ideas into words, particularly long words ("boring") and complex ideas ("academic"). I brought in the Ron Silliman quotes because they so clearly and succinctly explicate the tendency towards splitting in the arts and U.S. culture in general. One more time: "(7) This is not philosophy, it's poetry. And if I say so, then it becomes painting, music or sculpture, judged as such. If there are variables to consider, they are at least partly economic- the question of distribution, etc. Also differing critical traditions. Could this be good poetry, yet bad music? But yet I do not believe I would, except in jest, posit this as dance or urban planning." "(16) If this were theory, not practice, would I know it?" Both quotes are from -The Chinese Notebook- in -the Age of Huts- Roof Books, 1986. In his useful and thorough elucidation of Silliman's discussion of Bruce Andrews' "Lip Service" Alex Young notes: > David Shapiro made an interesting comment at the memorial reading = > for Kenneth Koch the other day...he said he gave Koch some Wittgenstein = > to read and Koch read it and said "don't we know all this already?" = > Koch was an amazing reader, but one thing that struck me as odd about = > his classroom technique and his readings in Make Your Own Days was his = > strict sense of what was "sense" and what was "nonsense." Despite the = > presentation of this unfashionable dichotomy, Koch performed (in every = > sense of that word) amazing readings from things that he declared as = > "complete nonsense." Koch had developed a sensibility that recognized = > the possibilities and pleasures of language that was generative and = > multivalent; a sensibility that evolved primarily out of his engagement = > with poetry, not expository theory (arguments about the New Critics' = > influence on Koch aside--he definitely wasn't someone actively engaged = > with theory throughout his life, in any case). Actually, the dichotomy Alex speaks of here has long been very fashionable and continues to be. The L=A poets' attempt to juxtapose types of thinking and areas of intellectual activity has always been unfashionable in most sectors of US intellectual life and continues to be, despite whatever postmodern (soon to be postmodem) developments; there are strong professional sanctions that guarantee the continued firm application of intellectual boundaries and distinctions between professionalized intellectual activities. Speaking of inside/outside the academy, I just realized that this discussion is a tributary of that thread, an apparently unstoppable river! > Would you say a poetics differs from a rule book? from a power struggle? (Jordan) Yes, mostly, but I'd appreciate it if you would elaborate on this question a bit. I would like to respond more fully. Nick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 08:55:15 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MWP Subject: Re: ?why is code In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 10/14/02 9:46 AM, Nick Piombino at npiombino@AAAHAWK.COM wrote: > Yesterday I > attended a magic lantern performance by Ken Jacobs- 90 minutes of pure > visual abstraction with music, no words at all... Thanks for that marvelous description of the recent Ken Jacobs performance, NP! Re. Jacobs. I don't know how many people know this but the marvelous filmmaker and artist also writes poetry, and a very strange poetry at that: -- in stereoscopic 3D! Not many people can see this effect in his poetry -- I cannot myself, unfortunately, after many tries -- but supposedly if you position your eyes a certain way you can actually read the two columns of text at once in a kind of virtual deep space that brings them together in interesting ways. If this effect works anything like his Nervous System pieces, it would be a major breakthrough of sorts that should demand greater attention amongst new media poets. At least I think so. As far as other artists writing poetry is concerned, I would highly recommend the conceptualist Carl Andre. I don't know any poet who has taken what he has done in words as far as he has taken it, and his semi-algorithmic approach seems to fit in well with today's sensibilities. I wish somebody would publish a book of his poems. He was quite prolific, it seems, and the ones I have read are extraordinary. -m ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 12:33:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: par two MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII It's a shame to have to carry on this conversation-in-public in such a chess-by-mail fashion -- I just know we'll be about to get somewhere by the end of your reply, and we'll both have exhausted our daily quota of airtime. Still, carry on we must. Alex quoted David accurately. His assessment of Kenneth's (and by proxy the non-Language poetry world's) involvement with theory is less acute. The only time I've been in the presence of a full run of the low numbers of Tel Quel was at Kenneth's. His poem "Straits" is a reading-through of Shklovsky. I'd compare his attitude toward Wittgenstein to that he maintained toward Beckett, or Language poetry, for that matter -- at best these were sophisticated rehashings of material others had worked over more profitably. (I didn't and don't share this view; I prefer to think that I just haven't had certain conversion experiences yet, viz Beckett. Wittgenstein I have always read as the funniest writer since Reader's Digest.) I would also offer a slightly different attitude that he would sometimes take toward Wittgenstein, Benjamin, and Derrida -- that these authors were occasionally as attentive and therefore worth engaging as say Barthes, but that their *use*, their appropriation by their academic supporters, made it difficult to avoid a defensive reaction. I take it from your subject line that you would prefer to address my comments indirectly: I wrote in a previous message on this endless subject of how we speak of the activity of writing that an idealized discourse that crosses genres and .. wait, I can cut and paste with the best of them: I also believe that that idealized discourse has been abandoned not only by the non-academic presses, but by those best equipped to generate it. In its place we have a terminally nerdy cascade of proper names, groupings, and anthology tables-of-contents. This is a different complaint from Kenneth's remark about Wittgenstein, but you're right that it has the same structure. We both are identifying wastes of time -- probably in self-defense. I know that the paper I chewed in my early youth was bubble-gum flavored and printed dimly with earned run averages, slugging percentages. Kenneth was probably aware of some tendency he had to over-analyze (the capacity to find sense in nonsense, or rather the tendency to make artificial distinctions and then act as if they didn't exist, that Alex mentioned) and to skip logical connections that he would have been impatient with in Wittgenstein. I was aware when I wrote that that Mark's complaint about the decline of the publishing opportunities for Poetics applied only to a very proscribed view of the activity of thinking and writing about the practice of poetry. But we are talking so much about a writer of the past! We are both in our posts talking about differentiation mechanisms. Or processes. Oh the things Wittgenstein said about processes! (What follows is from the Philosophical Investigations) 303. "I can only believe that someone else is in pain, but I know' it if I am." -- Yes: one can make the decision to say "I believe he is in pain" instead of "He is in pain". But that is all. What looks like an explanation here, or like a statement about a mental process, is in truth an exchange of one expression for another which, while we are doing philosophy, seems the more appropriate one. Just try -- in a real case -- to doubt someone else's fear or pain. 304. "But you will surely admit that there is a difference between pain -- behavior accompanied by pain and pain -- behavior without any pain?" -- Admit it? What greater difference could there be? -- "And yet you again and again reach the conclusion that the sensation itself is a nothing." -- Not at all. It is not a something, but not a nothing either! The conclusion was only that a nothing would serve just as well as a something about which nothing could be said. We have only rejected the grammar which tries to force itself on us here. The paradox disappears only if we make a radical break with the idea that language always functions in one way, always serves the same purpose: to convey thoughts -- which may be about houses, pains, and evil, or anything else you please. 305. "But you surely cannot deny that, for example, in remembering, an inner process takes place." -- What gives the impression that we want to deny anything? When one says "Still, an inner process does take place here" -- one wants to go on: "After all, you see it." And it is this inner process that one means by the word "remembering". -- The impression that we wanted to deny something arises from our setting our faces against the picture of the 'inner process'. What we deny is that the picture of the inner process gives us the correct idea of the use of the word "to remember". We say that this picture with its ramifications stands in the way of our seeing the use of the word as it is. 306. Why should I deny that there is a mental process? But "There has just taken place in me the mental process of remembering...." means nothing more than: "I have just remembered ....". To deny the mental process would mean to deny the remembering; to deny that anyone ever remembers anything. 307. "Are you not really a behaviorist in disguise? Aren't you at bottom really saying that everything except human behavior is a fiction?" -- If I do speak of a fiction, then it is of a grammatical fiction. (Here ends the reading from Wittgenstein -- Friends believe the good news!) Every writer chooses whom they read. And every writer chooses the terms they use to sort out what they'll read -- I'm interested in your terms "boring" and "academic", as well as "peanut butter and jelly" it being 12:40 of a Friday. I'd say it's willful to argue that Language poetry heals the split between poetry and philosophy, it never having occurred in the first place. And I'd call the late Allen Ginsberg a horrible nerd, too! But I liked him, even if he did scandalize my grandmother at the event I dragged her to after graduation. Maybe especially because! The issue here is time -- and attention. We each want our time that we give over to writing these strange (or to use your term "innovative") works to lead to further insight, to growth and understanding. No fair saying one side wants that more than another. Structural analyses of who gets what airtime (I'll come out and say I'm thinking of Jed Rasula's NCTE book, but the same type of argument has been made by most of our more eminent critics) are best left to the marketing department, and come to think of it they're hardly nerds up there, probably the cutest group in the company. Sigh. And we'll be closing... Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 17:00:27 -0230 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K.Angelo Hehir" Subject: poem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Lexicon Lake After the dream this part comes. This part comes after the dream. After the dream, this part. Part of why. Part of the head space where you feel like a stranger in your own mind. Part of feeling like a lost kite floating over indifferent suburbs. Over dog shit and swimming pools. Down every street that has hosted a bicycle accident. Have you been lifted out of a dream and allowed to watch yourself sleep? Tracing the contours of your scars without making yourself flinch. You remember a memory. A smell, an odour, a broken bottle of cologne. It has soaked in to the fabric. It will not leave you and you will not ask it to leave. It leaked in to your dream this morning and it has remained all day. Floating like a question afraid of the wrong answer, you are tentative. If you close you eyes in your sleep will vision become visions? Bring your arms in tight and feel the speed. Swoop down. Spiral out. Fast. Are you terrified? I love it. Slip in to the wind. Trapped in an alphabetic labyrinth like swimming in language. The lexicon lake. Call out and listen for: Stroke. Stroke. Stroke. Sink. Think your way out of it. Get higher. Let evocative notions be your guide to awareness. Emotions like motions owe prayers to the source. Seek out. Wear trust like a blanket knit by the woman who raised your favourite uncle. Wrapped up in wonder. Feel yourself as if stitched into a seam, simultaneously in and out. In and out of control. Is there control? Are there elastic bands glued to your teeth that snap your jaws shut when you scream? Is there a wooden broom handle behind your elbows causing you to stumble when you run? Don't fall. But I'm flying, you remember. Does this part come after the dream? After this part comes the dream. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 12:58:07 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Drunken Boat Subject: FILM & POETRY re: Burma, Vietnam and Bosnia In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: _______________________________________________________ BURMA, BOSNIA, VIETNAM. . . journeys that reflect on political repression and war through poetry, parables and food. Films by Lisa DiLillo and Lynne Sachs (4 nights) Thur. Oct 24 thru Sun. Oct 27 7:30 PM at Anthology Film Archives 32 Second Ave @ 2nd St, NY 212.505.5181 SCREENING DETAILS: Total running time 78 minutes _______________________________________________________ "TONGUES DON'T HAVE BONES: A Journey into Burma" a video by Lisa DiLillo with poetry by Kyi May Kaung (2001) 30:00 min. "TONGUES DON'T HAVE BONES: A Journey into Burma", looks behind the facade of censorship and iron control put into place by Myanmar's military regimes. Since 1962 Burma has been ruled by army-controlled dictatorships. "Tongues" tells stories of the struggles and the brutality of those regimes through a collaging of first-person accounts and political poetry that reflect on the synchronicity of beauty and terror. http://users.rcn.com/lisadilillo "WHICH WAY IS EAST: Notebooks from Vietnam" by Lynne Sachs in collaboration with Dana Sachs (1994) 33 min. "Lynne and Dana Sachs' travel diary of their trip to Vietnam is a collection of tourism, city life, culture clash, and historic inquiry. WHICH WAY IS EAST starts as a road trip and flowers into a political discourse. It combines Vietnamese parables, history and memories of the people the sisters met, as well as their own childhood memories of the war on TV. The film has a combination of qualities: compassion, acute observational skills, an understanding of history's scope, and a critical ability to discern what's missing from the textbooks and TV news." (from The Independent Film and Video Monthly) The House of Drafts (www.house-of-drafts.org), a Bosnian-American web collaboration by Lynne Sachs and Jeanne Finley with selected works by Alma Suljevic and Tvico Muhidin. (15 min. tape compilation) "HOUSE OF DRAFTS/ DOM PROMAHA is a virtual apartment building inhabited by the imaginary characters created by a group of Bosnian and American media artists. The project is shaped by autobiographical experiences filtered through poetic reflections, original music, and video imagery. From a performance artist who moonlights as a de-miner to a traveler caught by the inferno of a burning library-these short works express Sarajevo, a Balkan city now mending after a tumultuous decade of civil war. RELATED POETRY READING EVENT: _______________________________________________________Poets Kyi May Kuang and Elaine Schwager will read from their collections and discuss the political turmoil in Burma and the Holocaust on October 26, 2002 at 2 pm at St. Agnes Library, 444 Amsterdam Ave., New York City. Originally from Rangoon, Burma, Kyi May Kaung holds a doctorate in Political Science from the University of Pennsylvania. She is the recipient of the 1993 William Carlos Williams Prize awarded by the Academy of American Poets, a Fullbright Scholar from Burma, received her doctorate in City and Regional Planning. Her collections of poetry are "A Sampler For Mr. Smith" (1994), "Poems of Love and Tyranny" (1994), "Pelted with Petals/Burmese Poems" (1993), and "Lines to an Invisable Man" (1993). She has a weekly poetry column and economic analyses in Burmese with Radio Free Asia in Washington D. C., where she currently works as a Senior Research Analyst. Elaine Schwager is a poet, practicing psychoanalyst and screenwriter, living in New York City. Her book, "I Want Your Chair"(Rattapallax Press) was released in 2000. Her poems have also been in two anthologies: "It Is the Poem Singing in Your Eyes" (Harper andRow) and "City in All Directions" (Macmillan). She has been awarded residencies at The MacDowell Colony, The Woodstock Guild and The Vermont Studio Center. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 14:20:56 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: inside/outside the academy In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" andy, i would be willing to have a discussion of the problems with academic theory, which (might) turn first and foremost on the inability of many academics to codeswitch (let's say) when they address the public sphere proper... or even the inclination, or better, lack of inclination to do so (setting aside, that is, the opportunity)... but i wish i didn't feel it necessary to put on my flame-retardant flak jacket in having said discussion... so much of what you say takes direct aim at an institution i'm interested in trying to reform---for as long as i collect a paycheck therein... what do *you* do for a living, anyway?... my .edu is revealing, no? whereas your .net tells me only that you're probably not an academic worker... seems to me you wish to bring discussions of poetry backward, not forward, to a kinder, gentler, and probably more mystified realm (and i'm all for humilitas mself, btw)... your characterization of community college instructors sounds a mite condescending (at least), and is certainly absent any awareness, it seems, of that tangle implied by suggesting that "poetry" (v. e.g. "cultural production") = a love of literature (i love literature too, which is why i write it (i think)---and no, i honestly don't think i'm a self-loathing academic OR writer)... don't know how to proceed past this point if you continue to cling to such notions, andy... and just for the record: i'm more interested (in my classrooms) in helping students to become "better" people than "better writers," albeit in a writing classroom, this task takes on distinctively grammatical proportions (in the largest sense, as opposed say to mathematical)... and if one interviews for a creative writing position here at cu, yours truly is likely to pitch precisely that question (not that answering it contra moi will ipsoid factoid jeopardize one's candidacy either)... just for the record... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 15:37:46 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: Charles Olson at Goddard College, 1962 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Slought Networks archival release: Charles Olson at Goddard College, 1962 Reading and Talk Available online as re-mastered audio recordings (200 min; streaming media) and as transcription by Kyle Schlesinger (74 pages; downloadable PDF) http://slought.net/toc/archives/display.php?date2=1962-04-12 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 15:41:04 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: NICK LOLORDO Subject: Plath MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII George Bowering writes "As a grizzled veteran who got the Allen anthology when it came out, I am befuddled by the notes here about who might have been included. I mean that Plath, Swenson, etc. were not excluded because they were women; they were excluded for the same reason that X.J. Kennedy and Robert Lowell were excluded." Seems to me people here mostly get it: American poetry--two teams! Ugh! Grunt! Sis-boom-bah! People are speculating about whether women were, shall we say, encouraged to play on one of those two teams, back when they were being drawn up. Now if Keith Waldrop (surely as "grizzled" as you, George, if not of Allen's generation)--if Keith had been editing NAP we might well have seen XJ in there....sigh.... --Nick Vincent Nicholas LoLordo Assistant Professor Department of English University of Nevada-Las Vegas ***** Nick LoLordo Visiting Assistant Professor Department of English Colorado St. University (970) 491-6848 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 15:42:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Plath In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >Now if Keith Waldrop (surely as "grizzled" as you, George, if not of >Allen's generation)--if Keith had been editing NAP we might well have >seen XJ in there....sigh.... > >--Nick No no no. Keith and Marjrie (how the hell does that get spelled, that funny way) are a good deal hipper and better than that! -- George Bowering Has attractive toes. Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 00:16:34 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lakey Teasdale Subject: Virginia. Rocks. stone in pocket: his portrait Comments: To: "WRYTING-L : Writing and Theory across Disciplines" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Virginia. rocks. stone in pocket: his portrait and her coat. Long. An elegance does not matter=20 really. But for a description. the rocks on the beach over there. A cairn of some importance. And damned=20 if: The story lost in the chapel next door. She converted,=20 From 'pisci' lay-reader to. One of they Romans, thoo ken? Just. One o' they Romans. Chapels were common as. Thoo. stained. Glass and a trough upside down. stained glass and Thoo. Just Anima mea. Made perfect sense at the time. Sorry. so. Last walk=20 together. before he. Put down the mighty! Mighty sorry. Please. curious. Among sand stones, granite?=20 That beach of no. Sand only the rocks=20 underfoot. A house in the distance. A=20 chapel of. That's what they said. face: o' the Virgin,=20 Virginia. doesn't matter much but for a description.=20 The rocks on the beach. Stones of: as promised.=20 sands. stones=20 of according.=20 Sorry. So. so sorry. Truly so and which Greek play? How much Homer enough?=20 and. What? Plato? and all of the grete auctorite? All? all=20 the exacerbated? rocks on the beach? the description?=20 used the upturned trough as benches. Chapels quite common=20 despite all the churches. To spite all the churches. Why: a bible=20 on every table. They say. & a bastard under every bed! Every. But one. Found one! Small stone. unusual appearance.=20 of One. As though. yes. Portrait in small stone. Sorry, so His portrait. foreboding. The ravens were two. Please no. no. Pay attention: a marvel. No more. Put in her pocket for later.=20 For later. Her coat. Long. An elegance. Doesn't matter.=20 Description: The cold. His suffering. not to be borne.=20 and borne as of. Graceful fantasy. How can one tell? Needs. Needs. An entire rewriting. Burning the candle.=20 rich deep and fluent.=20 How? How can one? the hell. the sheer hell. so sorry. So sorry. for A bastard under every bed! A bible on every table!=20 By Christ! Even the hens are daft! Even the hens! Anyone could have predicted. if they had seen.=20 or just heard the ravens. Anyone else might have=20 noticed. The elegance. Long. Velvet on beach and=20 but a description. a beach. described. but a description. a beach. described. To have him stedefaste. Perseveraunce and esy=20 atempry governaunce. That ever I knewe or wyste Yet. excluding the shadows. Her room. On the beach. Also including the shadows. Her room. On the beach. Dazed and confused: sums it up. Right enough. Dazed and confused. And sorry. So sorry. She and of Sand. stone=20 or granite. Imagine.=20 imagine. Sand or stone. Portrait in Greece. or even England's green and pleasant.=20 Almost were it not just another location. Land. The maps. A chapel of. Glass. Stained. the Virgin.=20 Doesn't matter much now. Unusual. Elegance. Pockets=20 of rocks and small stones. His portrait in. The soapstone=20 carved box. So sorry. Now. Enclose granite. The portrait.=20 A marvel: almost a miracle! Something small. So true to=20 his. Face. Before, that is. his face. before was so. His=20 likeness in stone. It is kept in a box. also of stone.=20 So sorry: that's what remains. A sorry. So sorry. The last walk. A coat. Velvet elegance. His. his face. His handsome face. ravaged. the ravages. His. ravaged. the ravages. His. and of sand. stone. A chapel of some descrip- tion. So sorry. His handsome face. So sorry. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 19:40:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mairead Byrne Subject: Re: Plath Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dear Nick and George and all, I don't get it actually. I feel like a drunk wasp (bee to you guys)circling a saucer of jam (jelly to you guys). George says: "I mean that Plath, Swenson, etc. were not excluded because they were women; they were excluded for the same reason that X.J. Kennedy and Robert Lowell were excluded." Nick, I'm definitely not most people because I don't get it. What could the "same reason" be that excluded both May Swenson and Robert Lowell? Certainly it can't be aesthetic. I don't even know what the "same reason" would be in the case of Lowell and Plath. But help me out here. George hoped I was joking when I suggested May Swenson but I wasn't. I'm not surprised she's not included in Allen's anthology (or Cary Nelson's anthology), because I've got used to the idea of a group of low-anthologizable poets (my latest batch includes Swenson, Dugan, (James) Tate, and Ntozake Shange). In fact I'm currently interesting a major (poetry) publisher in an anthology of low-anthologizables. Anyway, I'm not joking. Although I confess it's so long ago and in such another country that I read Donald Allen's anthology I have clean forgotten everything but the cover, so ignorant I may be, but not joking. Mairead >>> nlolordo@LAMAR.COLOSTATE.EDU 10/18/02 17:47 PM >>> George Bowering writes "As a grizzled veteran who got the Allen anthology when it came out, I am befuddled by the notes here about who might have been included. I mean that Plath, Swenson, etc. were not excluded because they were women; they were excluded for the same reason that X.J. Kennedy and Robert Lowell were excluded." Seems to me people here mostly get it: American poetry--two teams! Ugh! Grunt! Sis-boom-bah! People are speculating about whether women were, shall we say, encouraged to play on one of those two teams, back when they were being drawn up. Now if Keith Waldrop (surely as "grizzled" as you, George, if not of Allen's generation)--if Keith had been editing NAP we might well have seen XJ in there....sigh.... --Nick Vincent Nicholas LoLordo Assistant Professor Department of English University of Nevada-Las Vegas ***** Nick LoLordo Visiting Assistant Professor Department of English Colorado St. University (970) 491-6848 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 21:07:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alex Young Subject: its time to put these nerds in their place MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Piombino" To: Sent: Friday, October 18, 2002 11:02 AM Subject: Parsing, or: the nerdy and the cool > > ------------------------------ > > > > Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 08:02:34 -0400 > > From: Nick Piombino > > Subject: Poetry and theory > > Indeed, and perhaps said theoretical side would be significant without the > > poetry side of it. Beyond the author or publisher identifying a text as one > > or the other, or line breaks or other stylistic indications, references to > > Dante or Wittgenstein or whoever to classify a text, how do you distinguish > > one type of text from the other when reading innovative writing? "(7) This > > is not philosophy, it's poetry. And if I say so, it becomes painting, music > > or sculpture, judged as such. If there are variables to consider, they are > > at least partly economic- the question of distribution, etc. Also differing > > critical traditions. Could this be good poetry, yet bad music? But yet I do > > not believe I would, except in jest, posit this as dance or urban planning." > > "(16) If this were theory, not practice, would I know it?" Ron Silliman, > > from-The Chinese Notebook- in -The Age of Huts- Roof Books, 1986. > > Also, In no way was I detracting or arguing > with Alex Young's point. No power struggles intended. It's just that my > feeling was in the 70's, and is now, that I liked when the L=A poets did not > sneer at incorporating complex theoretical ideas and conceptualizations, > critical writing, or philosophical writing into their discussions and > writing work. With all due respect to the late Kenneth Koch, his point that > "we know all that already" about Wittgenstein to me illustrates the wish on > the part of some poets to sustain a split between poetry and philosophy, > between the nerdy and the cool, which, in my view, helps lead to the tedious > dumbing down procedures which have turned the minds of some our best poets > into peanut butter and jelly (nothing against peanut butter and jelly) when > they go to put their ideas into words, particularly long words ("boring") > and complex ideas ("academic"). > > I brought in the Ron Silliman quotes because they so clearly and succinctly > explicate the tendency towards splitting in the arts and U.S. culture in > general. One more time: > > "(7) This is not philosophy, it's poetry. And if I say so, then it becomes > painting, music or sculpture, judged as such. If there are variables to > consider, they are at least partly economic- the question of distribution, > etc. Also differing critical traditions. Could this be good poetry, yet bad > music? But yet I do not believe I would, except in jest, posit this as dance > or urban planning." > > "(16) If this were theory, not practice, would I know it?" > > Both quotes are from -The Chinese Notebook- in -the Age of Huts- Roof Books, > 1986. > > In his useful and thorough elucidation of Silliman's discussion of Bruce > Andrews' "Lip Service" Alex Young notes: > Actually, the dichotomy Alex speaks of here has long been very fashionable > and continues to be. The L=A poets' attempt to juxtapose types of thinking > and areas of intellectual activity has always been unfashionable in most > sectors of US intellectual life and continues to be, despite whatever > postmodern (soon to be postmodem) developments; there are strong > professional sanctions that guarantee the continued firm application of > intellectual boundaries and distinctions between professionalized > intellectual activities. Speaking of inside/outside the academy, I just > realized that this discussion is a tributary of that thread, an apparently > unstoppable river! Touche, the genre-bending issue issue is an important part of this debate, and i wish i had more time to hash it out now; i'm hoping to write a thesis about LangPo and genre bending next year. But a couple of quick points. Nick--I love the cool/nerdy dichotomy in this, i could write a whole 'nother essay on the word cool. I think the whole idea, which i assume came into popular usage in the 50s (?) is very much attatched to the (uniquely American?) sense of autonomous individual identity evolving around that time--in an age where identity was becoming increasingly blurred within a society becoming increasingly connected (homoginized?) thru mass media etc. Cool is not so much about avoiding big ideas as it is about avoiding self-consciousness; avoiding (or masking!) an awareness of the artificiality of identity. When you go to a Bob Dylan concert, he doesn't even talk on stage. Thats how cool he is. Everything is in the music, baby. Thats why Bob Dylan is the coolest guy around. As Kurosawa (a really cool film maker) says in his autobiography, "saying anything more would be like drawing legs on a snake." The Beat Generation was pretty damn cool, or so we liked to think--"first thougt best thought" was really cool (tho it certainly wasn't a reality), because it demonstrated that one's identity was consistent overe time, something happened to you in a moment, and there's no reason to change that, your consistent and natural identity has no need to impose what it thinks today on what it thought yesterday. But Cool is dangerous--consistency is hard to maintain--Jack Kerouac was cool. Jackson Pollock was cool. Jim Morrison was cool. What happens when you don't identify any more with the construct that defines you so completeley to the rest of humanity? Enough on coolness--onto the nerds. I agree that mainstream academia wants very much to remain rooted in the platonic tradition of Western consciousness--criticism remains a "metalanguage" to borrow Ron's term. Lets go to the old OED for a look at "metalanguage"--"A language which supplies terms for the analysis of an 'object' language; a system of propositions about other propositions." But then also from the humble American Heritage we get this definition of "meta" which I think also sheds some light on how we use the term: "Beyond; transcending; more comprehensive: metalinguistics." The nerd identity is dependent on a sort of Kantian distance from a distinct discourse that allows them to claim the "meta" (read "transcendent, above"). Their discourse, to maintain its sort of Socratic purity (see the Ion) must remain anti-performative. So, now we have a situation where contemporary theory, by means of this metalanguage, has stumped itself, and come to a point where its own rhetoric is forcing it into a more performative, and on the more practical side, a less grammatical and directly logical, approach. (y'all will have to accept my apology for the gross oversimplifications; i think thhey work for the point i'm trying to make, but feel free to object). And so Derrida writes ""Of Grammatology", and later he writes "Glas", and today I go to amazon.com to maybe buy the latter, find out its out of print and would set me back 50 bucks, find that "Of Grammatology" is the amazon "Featured Item" and can be picked up for around 20. Why, you're asking, would the public consume such a theoretically obtuse book like Of Grammatology while such a formally innovative one like Glas is neglected? Why does Bernstein's book My Way (which I love) contain some essays with anti-syntactical moments, some in verse, and others in prose that would be more than acceptable in any mainstream academic publication? (consequently, there's a brilliant discussion of this issue in regards to Derrida in Perloff's "Wittgenstein's Ladder" Chapter II) I think the answer is simple--neither Derrida nor Bernstein (nor Ginsberg, for that matter!) is willing to take the plunge totally divorce themselves from that sort of Kantian meta/transcendent identity--even if they, in theory, don't privledge their theoretical practice over their performative textual practice. Derrida's ouvre, and the work of the language poets, is read in Academic settings as a scientific article might be read: you have the "raw data"--the "non-sensical" (or in any way innovative) textual practice, but don't worry, because at the end of it all the "scientist/artist" will neatly explicate his findings for you in this perfectly lucid piece of academic writing. How in the world can a poet resist this kind of characerization, the dreaded "Language Poetry as the justification of the theory" problem? In some ways I think the New York School model is attractive--just be a real pain in the ass when anyone wants you to explain it--I'm sure Ashbery reads a whole lot of theory (i was totally shooting from the hip there but its a hypothetical point), but you would never get him to admit it, at least not in a public forum, and certainly not in a journal entitled "N=E=W Y=O=R=K." But then its problematic too, I think people tend to take it the wrong way, thus the legions of peanut-butter-and-jelly aspiring and vapid New York School poets haunting lower manhattan. I think the new generation of American poets will have to directly confront the "frames" of poetics and practice and alter them utterly if they want to avoid being read like the New York School or The Language Poets (tho both these movements are still alive and kicking). I see a continuing importance for poetics and theoretical discourse, but I think the idea of reading as a metadiscourse has to be continually questioned, whether the reading exists in the frame of poetry or poetics. I think the frame of poetics could also be intentionally downsized by readers and poets to avoid the kind of "scientific article" readings of a poets work that are prevelent in academia today. I think the specter of the New Critics' "well-wrought urn" (I dunno who said that, its always just sort of been in the air--does anyone know?) is a little too fresh in the LangPo theoretical consciousness. I think in the future it would be great if the theoretical discourse produced by LangPo was read as an important part of the movement, but ultimately a part with a limited audience that plays a secondary role to that which is placed in the frame of poetry. I think more of the ideological goals overtly stated in LangPo theory would be better achieved by having Hejinian's Essay "My Life" isolated in a higschool anthology (or better yet, one of those "Best Loved Poems" books!) than by making a few high level English majors read "Rejection of Closure," and then if they have time take a look at some of "My Life", which she has conviently interpreted for them in the essay. Cheers, Alex ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 21:25:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alex Young Subject: typo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable in a very telling typo, I accidentally wrote "Hejinian's essay 'My = Life'" instead of "Hejinian's poem 'My Life'" in my last post--but maybe = it would have been better to play it off as intentional. adios alex ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 18:34:09 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Bush Log #1 In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable * "Yeah, my Horse." "For long?" "I've secured a term." "Secured?" "No longer a question." * "Your horse - its ambiguous footing, the echo in the air - what climbs out of the hole before us, the breakfast muffin, the English one, smothered wit= h blue jelly?" "You talking Blair? Quite a horn. You don=B9t get that one at a flea market and it ain=B9t cheap. Brass in a flash, oil for cash, that boy springs a quic= k ticket. But you do get the voice, the velvet curls, the Mick Jagger sweet lip. At this point I take what I can get." "It=B9s not all amour then?" "Get serious. We=B9re not talking about athlete=B9s foot, knee spurs, or some crippling fungi around the crotch. This is war, an eight pitch target, and we=B9re up to three." "Powell and Rummy?" "Did you ever see Rummy without a suit? Don=B9t he sing beautiful? Got the ladies on the zip-zip and the boys all on the trigger." "The echo in the chamber?" "You talking Powell? Ha-Ha. This is a Colt, a 45. Note the angle breaking a mere, slight shadow before the qualm of noon." "What some call 'A Cowboy Imperial Air?'" "Look. A non-duplicitous dichotomy yields infinite neighbor to neighbor, nation to nation total - and then some - national and global taxonomy. Which is to say, yes, no question, this is War. Spur on the Horse." "His name?" "No name." * "Iraq?" "They already getting ready the firecrackers. This is not going to be no simplistic, upper scale, light tone digital retouch." "Pixels? Mosaics?" "Cleaning the grid. Come in from the sky and drop down the Domes. Rummy likes to say =8CThere=B9s too much darkness in those Domes.'" "Dueling with the dome." "Dueling, counter-dueling, meta-theism, the whole cyber-deck, fiber-wrap-it-around-them-neo-domination." "Kenny?" "Kenny never had it so good. Can you turn over the basin? I do like the white ceramic curve, its implicit theocratic dimension. But I need to shave." "No war with whiskers?" "Both Laura and I like it clean. No dualism on the chin. Euclid: A sharp hypotenuse guarantees the maintenance of the perpendicular. In victory all rubble becomes disingenuous. All kingdom come, if you get my drift." "Didn=B9t you have a dog named "Whiskers." "Rhymes with =8CCheckers=B9, don=B9t it?" * "And Lee? What about Lee?" "At? People had At all wrong. Another ordinary case of public dualistic pluralism getting carried away in a PDF." "PDF?" "Portable Doctored File, if you get my drift." "And At? Born to be cruel?" "Born to be cruel. He loved that song by - was it? - Elvis. Truth, in fact= , At was into dis-erotic capitulation, the ancient notion you take the pipe into the Oracle, put in an elbow, and come out with a ditty." "Willy Horton? Like on his horse backwards?" "You got that right. Black and blue, a kind of consensual disaffection that takes place in old relationships; blacks and whites, you do have to turn those upside down and put in the screws. Or, firecrackers in a dog=B9s ass." "You and At?" "Me and At, from day one, right up any dog's arse, preferably an enemy dog, like we had up there in Massachussetts." "But, At?" "Right until he had that disease, the monolithic intrusion that knocked him straight out. Talk about a meta loss of binaries." "Oracle error?" "System so far down you couldn=B9t even work the virus check." "And Laura." "Did you know Laura means "good woman" in Latin? I learned that back in University in my Roman teleology thumbprint class. A kind of laying on the hands. Roads, highways, parades." * "The New World Order." "Let's call it "the New World Corridor" or, in this case, an Iraq in which the libidinal is metaphor for a polite extraction of goods and services fro= m forgone consensual partners. We eliminate the melancholy, the meager, and whatever gets wasted in normal acts, or, to put it another way, reciprocation with the counter-heat of massive, albeit smart invasion applied vividly to the flesh, non-withstanding metropolitan structures." "So the libidinal is stricture clean?" "Well, the way Rummy has it, we can do it with or without partners. That's the beauty of it." "Onanistic thrills without deity or danger?" "A cakewalk. An ol' Hussein, he'll be my candle. You wait." * (End Part 1) Stephen Vincent ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 18:38:05 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: Re: New Media Jacobins MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii now, i prefer JACKAKNAPE... (& you know, my kind sir, that what i refer to was in Lascaux, as well...) bliss l (i wish there was more thought like this) (there is) ===== http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html meditation, net art, poeisis: blog http://lewislacook.blogspot.com/ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 20:36:53 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: charles alexander Subject: web site for chax press Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Chax Press has its own domain now, although we're a few weeks away from having the site updated. I hope all of you who have links to the site will see this and change the links appropriately, including the links from the EPC. The new site address is (with or without a www in the URL, it works) Also, I hope those of you in southern California are able to see our work on display at Univ. of Redlands. Please send me an email for directions. Redlands is on the far outskirts of the Los Angeles metro area, near San Bernardino. Besides my work in books, there are three amazing sewn pieces by Katherine Kuehn of Salient Seedling Press. In one of these works, a wide and very long cloth hangs from the ceiling to the floor and then flows along the floor in waves. On that cloth, the text of Lorine Niedecker's Paean to Place has been sewn, after which the cloth has been died with indigo; then, after the dying, the stitches of the poem have been removed, leaving the image of the poem which is there as much by absence as by presence, which seems appropriate for this Niedecker poem. As far as my work in this show, it includes Chax Press handmade books since about 1986 as well as books by some other presses with which I have worked. One corner of the Peppers Art Gallery at Redlands also has a table of non-fine-art books for browsing, a CD player set up for listening to some collaborations I have done with composer Chuck Koesters of Orts Theatre of Dance, other CDs of poetry readings, and two videos of multimedia collaborations with Orts Theatre of Dance. I don't think the exhibition is currently set to travel outside of Redlands; however, if any of you on this list have contacts with exhibition spaces and might like to bring this show to you, please email me at . Thanks, Charles Thanks, Charles Alexander charles alexander / chax press fold the book inside the book keep it open always read from the inside out speak then ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 22:13:06 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: desire on a tightened rope In-Reply-To: <200210070130.g971Uwx16665@webmail2.speakeasy.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v546) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit desire on a tightened rope for "Lida" Araujo show me a court regulate funnel. desire ripped from the moment and spewed on the floor. can you look back. did they let you speak, is the floor still there. this was a remote spot. to a rock or probe that did not move when beaten. this is a shallow grave with memory, can you look back when not there, we where not there, did they let you speak. can the sun rise again. allegedly gashed and spewed on the floor. can you speak yet. is the sun there, is the pain gone. multiple gun shoot reminders. automatic stigmatas dragged semiconscious to a court regulate funnel. desire ripped from the floor. can you leave yet, dont look back. I wasn't there, we where not there when a remote spot was beaten to a shallow grave with no memory. can you show me a tightened rope, to a rock or probe that does not move when beaten. a court regulate funnel. desire ripped from the floor. can you look back. I wasn't there, we where not there, show me a remote spot to a garage, to a remote court regulate funnel. a desire ripped from the moment. statistics strangled you as you spoke, is the pain gone. is the moment semiconscious, is the tightened rope a rock or probe that does not move when beaten. a garage, to a shallow grave with memory, can you look back, are you still here. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 01:34:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Terror MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Terror We are are absolutely absolutely going going to to be be destroyed, destroyed, Jennifer Jennifer said said We Using attribution the of attribution quotes of makes quotes it makes easier, it Nikuko easier, replied Nikuko Using replied the No quotes then, said said Jennifer Jennifer We're We're off, off, said Nikuko No New is York a is city a in city perpetual in anxiety perpetual and anxiety mourning and New mourning York One dominates sniper hundreds dominates of hundreds square square of miles curtailed curtailed One activity sniper The world world hates hates the United States, States, which which lies lies constantly constantly The There in evil will will coupled destroy suicide coupled There with is suicide evil or well another rule religion the may ruins well of rule the ruins One planet religion Every await day the we nuclear await holocaust nuclear come, holocaust Jennifer come, Every This This no no time time for for attribution, attribution, carry carry face face disease disease destruction destruction Biogenetics Biogenetics guarantees guarantees virulence virulence remaining remaining Capital now Capital drives now itself drives heedless itself consumers of pours every into remaining every interstice; interstice; is there no escape pours can apocalypse scribble over apocalypse over over again, again, One It It difference difference at at all, all, Then Then softens softens blows blows needlessly, needlessly, What is, we're said saying Nikuko is, and together, What then we're laughed saying We are absolutely going to be destroyed, Jennifer said. Using the attribution of quotes makes it easier, Nikuko replied. No quotes then, said Jennifer. We're off, said Nikuko. There is evil in the will to destroy coupled with suicide. Every day we await the nuclear holocaust to come, Jennifer said. This is no time for attribution, Nikuko replied. We carry the face of disease and destruction. One can scribble the apocalypse over and over again, Nikuko said. It makes no difference at all, Jennifer replied. Then attribution softens the blows needlessly, Nikuko said. What we're saying is, said Nikuko and Jennifer together, then laughed. === ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 01:39:11 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: terror MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Terror We are absolutely going to be destroyed, Jennifer said Using attribution the of quotes makes it easier, Nikuko replied No then, We're off, New is York a city in perpetual anxiety and mourning One dominates sniper hundreds square miles curtailed activity The world hates United States, which lies constantly There evil will coupled destroy suicide with or well another rule religion may ruins planet Every await day we nuclear holocaust come, This no time for attribution, carry face disease destruction Biogenetics guarantees virulence remaining Capital now drives itself heedless consumers pours every into interstice; there escape can apocalypse scribble over again, It difference at all, Then softens blows needlessly, What is, we're saying together, then laughed said. replied. Jennifer. Nikuko. suicide. destruction. laughed. === ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 20:18:37 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: terror a response to Alan's poem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alan. A subconscious or maybe a conscious anxiety: look I dont think that anyone hates Americans any more or to any greater extent than anyone hates any other national or ethnic group. You havent, I know, responded to my last email (as such) which was tongue in cheek, but your response to my Baraka thing I felt was quite naive, so I took a dig at all your "numbers" (by the way I like the idea of the blocks of numbers and like the idea of what you are doing in the poetry area) : look I think that your project and langauge poetry and poetry and the various poetic practices and the stuff coming on line now by various poets...I'm not as good a poet , or I dont have the "ideas" maybe they have or the energy....those poems and poetics I repeat are brilliant: truth is I am possibly as prone as anyone else to being "non-political" and wanting to duck away: I am disturbed very much by the world situation, well enough to ear-bash people,...trouble is I never learnt the polite language that so-called middle class people use and also - I admit it - I'm not a good listener, I do tend to harrangue I know I do: but that said, if I feel strongly about some injustice I tend to throw caution to the winds (and maybe at times I "lose it") but a) I like what you and Nick and the others writing poetry etc are all doing 2) I dont see how my political ideas (which have some correlation to Hilton Obenzerger's ("Richard's got a point")) should lead you and Nick to fly into a rage or a "snit" against me. Its almost as if many of those such as yourself and Perloff and Nick and Ron -and I admire these peoples' ideas and sensitivity and their poetry and their originality etc and poetics: cant accept that someone who is "outside" can dare have right to assert ideas that MIGHT just be true and I suspect that in regard to Baraka that there is an element of racism aginst him: I dont think that it is anti-semitism as a backlash of racism against black people and Baraka. Or maybe that's not so, but its something maybe to think about... These are maybe disturbing issues - they are - but they are real and you have a Government about to inflict more damage on Iraq (the people of Iraq not Saddam Hussein are my concern there) and possibly into Indonesia , the Phillipines, and Korea - thank God Korea HAS got nukes or it would be doomed: I want Korea to hurry up and get armed with ICBMs to match the US and thus help defend itself and China against the US and India etc Even if it is NOT the CIA who engineered S11 and the various other attacks since (which I am pretty convinced they have done as it fits in with the general pattern of how they operate and Bush's "axis of evil" nonsense) the method of solving problems by bombing and attacking other countries militarily is stupid and barbaric: in fact it can be seen that eg when you have a sniper you cant stop who is a (probably a Christian - NOT A MUSLIM fanatic - who has said he is God: he might even belong to the same (or a similar) Church as Billy Graham) it is clearly obvious that you can never stop terrorism - and that war and violence by or in the US (where there is crazed gun culture) generates terorrism: if the US was run by intelligent peole such as Hilton and others on this list there would be a pulling back and a big movement for peace and negotiations and assistance to and with all countries in all cases (short of flotillas racing toward the US)...but the truth is that no one has probably ever thought of attacking the US (in the way Bush presumably imagines) and if they did you couldnt stop them: meanwhile there is no conventional situation that approximates eg Pearl harbour or Hitler's attack on England and so on. So by ducking thses hard issues (I'm not expecting any agreement only discussion) and hiding inside your poetry (unlike Baraka) you show that you and others are being cowed by the CIA and the media (controlled by the Aussie Rupert "GOTCHA!" Murdoch and other right wingers)...the US is almost creating the attack on itself that it fears .. as you or your poem/persona whatever seems to fear. But I'm not dodging the implicatiosn (NOT any ant-semitism) my original email about Baraka: I stand by the "guts" of that email... but I dont think though that, to date, anyone outside the US has attacked any US installation (except the right winger Timothy McVeigh who was trained in guns etc by the US Army) (and there is a certain - albeit fascist - logic about what he did: HE saw it as a response an unjust attack on his and other patriotic Americans). Now I can believe people - not quite as crazy as McVeigh,but white Christian patriotic and racist Americans could well be your terrorists (or the most dangerous warmogers, whatever): that's a possibility. There are a lot of those who are very rich and can obtain military and electronic hardware. Now: this is a response to your poem. The answer to "perpetual anxiety" is consideration of the many possiblities (discussion after thought) then some action of some kind. Of course you can "opt out " (dont worry I keep wanting to do just that myself I know my weaknesses ("know thyself" was some Greek's saying I dont know which) and often my own absurdities) but for me it boils down to this I dont want to see one more person hurt anywhere: I want to see negotiations and reason: not a war. This might be "idealistic" but I have to say these things as a human bieng and as a father and a grandfather.I DONT hate any Jews or Arabs or Americans or anyone anywhere: what is the point of that?? My bitterness grows from love. THAT, not hate, is the only thing that can help us..real love, even that of The Christ (although I am not a Christian, but I mean that aspect of Christianity: which surely says "thou shalt not kill" and "turn the other cheek" and "love thy neighbours"). Where is that love? Richard Taylor. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Sondheim" To: Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 6:39 PM Subject: terror > Terror > > We are absolutely going to be destroyed, > Jennifer said > Using attribution the of quotes makes it easier, Nikuko replied > No then, We're off, New is York a city in perpetual anxiety and > mourning > > One dominates sniper hundreds square miles curtailed activity > The world hates United States, which lies constantly > There evil will coupled destroy suicide > with or well another rule religion may ruins planet > > Every await day we nuclear holocaust come, > This no time for attribution, carry face disease destruction > Biogenetics guarantees virulence remaining Capital now drives itself heedless > consumers > > pours every into interstice; there escape > can apocalypse scribble over again, It difference at all, Then softens > blows needlessly, What is, we're saying together, then laughed > > said. > replied. > Jennifer. Nikuko. > suicide. > destruction. > laughed. > > > === ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 07:11:24 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: Re: Plath In-Reply-To: <200210182240.g9IMeoY18899@morse.concentric.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Now if Keith Waldrop (surely as "grizzled" as you, George, if not of > >Allen's generation)--if Keith had been editing NAP we might > well have > >seen XJ in there....sigh.... > > > >--Nick > > No no no. Keith and Marjrie (how the hell does that get spelled, that > funny way) are a good deal hipper and better than that! I guess, for some, hipness consists in not getting with the program. Because I recently got this very odd gift from a friend: _Pegasus Descending: a Book of the Best Bad Verse_ (New York: Collier Books, 1971), edited by Keith Waldrop, X.J. Kennedy, and James Camp. Surprised me too. There's also _Bulsh_, by X. J. Kennedy, published in 1970 by Burning Deck, and _Christopher Montgomery sings Connecticut Elegy_, music by Christopher Montgomery; words by James Camp, Charles Causley, X. J. Kennedy, Keith Waldrop. A Burning Deck Record. These from Forty Years of Burning Deck Press, 1961 - 2001 http://www.brown.edu/Facilities/University_Library/exhibits/burningdeck/ which begins with this interesting quote (the next-to-last sentence is esp. choice): "In 1961, poets were supposed to be in opposing camps, often inelegantly - and inaccurately - labeled 'academics' or 'beats'. The two most widely noted anthologies of the time, both representing the period 1945-1960, contain not a single poet in common. Burning Deck (the magazine) disregarded this split, printing and reviewing a spread of poets wide enough that on occasion an author would complain of being published in such unprogrammatic company. Though advertised as a 'quinterly', the magazine, after only four issues, gave way to a series of pamphlets and - later - books of poetry and short fiction. Our list remains eclectic, with some emphasis on experimental writing and an attention to recent British poets generally ignored in this country. Since being eclectic is not always taken for a virtue, we would note that our eclecticism - besides simply reflecting personal ranges of appreciation - is based on an inability to believe that the history of, for instance, poetry can possibly be clear before the poems are written. It is not denying the importance of 'movements', to insist that there is another importance in moving beside or apart from them. After all, there are many judgements, none of them the last." K. & R.W. (excerpted from _Preface to A Century in Two Decades_, 1981) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 10:26:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: Appius and Virginia, II Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Appius told Minutius: "You're shedding the considerate judge" Minutius told Calphurnia: "You're running down the accomplices" Calphurnia told Corbulo: "You're convinced the rest of your pictures stopped bursting the heights" Corbulo told Horatio: "Your sanctity is no better than mine" Horatio told Icilius: "You're overlooking the storm in the middle of his favorite echo" Icilius told Numitorius: "You're innocent, or ready and sparkling" Numitorius told Virginia: "The model for my Siren lies under the skies" Icilius told Virginia: "I might easily have cretinization with feathers to spare" Horatio told Virginia: "I have nothing to do with these footprints" Corbulo told Virginia: "Appius reddens at each word I speak" Calpurnia told Virginia: "I am not to be eclipsed by hooves" Minutius told Virginia: "I was once prized by respectable unsociables" Appius told Virginia: "My equipment is becoming something of an American world" Virginia told Appius: "A poet puts too great a strain upon the night" _________________________________________________________________ Unlimited Internet access -- and 2 months free! Try MSN. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/2monthsfree.asp ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 11:56:43 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: LMJ Subject: new websites for subpress collective and robert duncan Comments: To: subpress-l@hawaii.edu, realpo@communities.msn.com Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Dear All, subpress collective of new york and hawaii now has a new website up at: www.nyspp.com/lisa/subpress.htm please check it out-- we have some new books this season by hoa nguyen, jeff hull, brett evans and kari edwards. My Robert Duncan website has also moved to: www.nyspp.com/lisa/duncan.htm From either of these links you can access The School of Continuation website (with links to Poet Laureate Anselm Hollo's work), the Vole website (the greatest rock and roll band in the history of western civilization) and The New Music and Poetry Clearinghouse (great deals on poetry CDs). Best, Lisa Jarnot ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 13:07:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: Virginia Good For The Getting Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed an incision was carried out with much wit at your expense above your station you're the noblest of ghosts I was in Paris so far away spoil the land spare the counterscarp O I could tell you if you wish some things are better left in rose-leaf a soul to the horrors where the prizes are steep without reach a sieve is gentle by comparison the lash the last word to wash over my back, wished as usual well of them twice read in a trice surprised to be consecrated stir up entrance her own exaggerations expressly control the exceptions make haste and spring up to eradicate expectation of their thrall's richest glow lash last wish the kind of face that goes pale when darkened by crowds Taken by "line-to-next-line" units, there's two types of writing here, each giving an impression that they may exist in a relation other than proximal. Rather than several disparate bits given on the page, there are two cuts of writing interacting with each other in more than a visual context. Is writing purely visual (read, if you like, "material")? There is the matter of intent, of the author's thoughts, even if at the instance of composition the author is mainly thinking of something other than writing. So what then of the words - the phrase as line and line as constantly projecting unit - that exist outside the author's intent (though it could easily be argued that all ready-made words exist outside an individual author's intent)? Do the words arrange their own supra-visual context? They give the impression of meaning in their proximity, it is true, but does the fact that the words themselves have in the past been arranged into more traditionally meaning-freighted sentences, even sentences that have changed lives and altered world history, lend supra-visual import? I would claim that the lines are their own past, and the field they occupy is not one of linguistics per se but of poetry -- something visual more like a pre-manufactured "natural" phenomenon than a work of art. It is poetry's business to be neither art nor nature, nor that which lies between (i.e., Virginia). Each unit leading into and forming the next is a type of writing discrete from the next such unit. Hence, there are always two types of writing in this poem. It is the act of writing visible AND intellectual. The intent in this poem arises from the thrust of the structure. _________________________________________________________________ Surf the Web without missing calls! Get MSN Broadband. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 13:27:37 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: derek beaulieu Subject: new from housepress: Ian Samuel's "arcana" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable new from housepress: "arcana"=20 by Ian Samuels published in an edition of 60 handbound and numbered copies. $5.00 each. Ian Samuels is the author of several chapbooks, and CABRA (Red deer = press, 2000). He is currently completing his MA at the university of = calgary and is a cultural worker with the best hair in town. for more infortmation, or to order copies, contact: derek beaulieu 1339 19th ave nw calgary alberta canada t2m1a5 derek@housepress.ca www.housepress.ca 403-234-0336 (p) 403-282-2229 (f) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 16:32:03 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Duration Press Subject: Re: Plath MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit kennedy was, i believe, a co-editor of the burning deck magazine... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rachel Loden" To: Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 10:11 AM Subject: Re: Plath > > >Now if Keith Waldrop (surely as "grizzled" as you, George, if not of > > >Allen's generation)--if Keith had been editing NAP we might > > well have > > >seen XJ in there....sigh.... > > > > > >--Nick > > > > No no no. Keith and Marjrie (how the hell does that get spelled, that > > funny way) are a good deal hipper and better than that! > > I guess, for some, hipness consists in not getting with the program. > Because I recently got this very odd gift from a friend: _Pegasus > Descending: a Book of the Best Bad Verse_ (New York: Collier Books, > 1971), edited by Keith Waldrop, X.J. Kennedy, and James Camp. > > Surprised me too. > > There's also _Bulsh_, by X. J. Kennedy, published in 1970 by Burning > Deck, and _Christopher Montgomery sings Connecticut Elegy_, music by > Christopher Montgomery; words by James Camp, Charles Causley, X. J. > Kennedy, Keith Waldrop. A Burning Deck Record. > > These from Forty Years of Burning Deck Press, 1961 - 2001 > > http://www.brown.edu/Facilities/University_Library/exhibits/burningdeck/ > > which begins with this interesting quote (the next-to-last sentence is > esp. choice): > > "In 1961, poets were supposed to be in opposing camps, often inelegantly > - and inaccurately - labeled 'academics' or 'beats'. The two most widely > noted anthologies of the time, both representing the period 1945-1960, > contain not a single poet in common. > > Burning Deck (the magazine) disregarded this split, printing and > reviewing a spread of poets wide enough that on occasion an author would > complain of being published in such unprogrammatic company. Though > advertised as a 'quinterly', the magazine, after only four issues, gave > way to a series of pamphlets and - later - books of poetry and short > fiction. Our list remains eclectic, with some emphasis on experimental > writing and an attention to recent British poets generally ignored in > this country. > > Since being eclectic is not always taken for a virtue, we would note > that our eclecticism - besides simply reflecting personal ranges of > appreciation - is based on an inability to believe that the history of, > for instance, poetry can possibly be clear before the poems are written. > It is not denying the importance of 'movements', to insist that there is > another importance in moving beside or apart from them. After all, there > are many judgements, none of them the last." > > K. & R.W. (excerpted from _Preface to A Century in Two Decades_, 1981) > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 13:53:53 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Fwd: Rejected posting to POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 22:20:11 -0400 >From: "L-Soft list server at University at Buffalo (1.8e)" > >Subject: Rejected posting to POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >To: bowering@sfu.ca >X-Virus-Scanned: by ebola.sfu.ca running antivirus scanner >X-Spam-Level: Spam-Level S > > > >Your posting to the POETICS list has been rejected because it >contains an >attachment of type 'IMAGE/JPEG'. The POETICS list has been >configured to reject >such attachments; please contact the list >owner at >POETICS-request@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU for more information. Logic >error in >BAD_ATTACHMENT template. > >Received: (qmail 21845 invoked from network); 19 Oct 2002 02:20:10 -0000 >Received: from rm-rstar.sfu.ca (142.58.120.21) > by listserv.buffalo.edu with SMTP; 19 Oct 2002 02:20:10 -0000 >Received: from [142.58.74.224] (fs224.dialin.sfu.ca [142.58.74.224]) > by rm-rstar.sfu.ca (8.12.5/8.12.5/SFU-5.0H) with ESMTP id >g9J2JwCh014863 > for ; Fri, 18 Oct 2002 19:19:59 >-0700 (PDT) >Mime-Version: 1.0 >X-Sender: bowering@popserver.sfu.ca >Message-Id: >In-Reply-To: <000001c27444$d711c7a0$70000140@Glasscastle> >References: <000001c27444$d711c7a0$70000140@Glasscastle> >Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 19:21:41 -0700 >To: UB Poetics discussion group >From: George Bowering >Subject: Re: Plath, pity-parties, women in NAP >Content-Type: multipart/Related; >boundary="============_-1177128382==_mr============" > ; type="text/html" >X-Virus-Scanned: by ebola.sfu.ca running antivirus scanner >X-Spam-Level: Spam-Level > >> And then I remembered that I had learned a lot from >>her--and I don't mean from her content but from the suppleness of her >>lines, her music. > >Okay, yes, that makes some sort of sense. I was not interested >enough to follow her to the extent of reading the dribbles that that >asshole Huges let out from time to time. > >>Of course, as Maria mentions, she would never have fit into the Allen >>anth. But that doesn't explain, say, Diane di Prima's absence. > >I think that Diane might have made it, though she was pretty young, >eh? I think that Don Allen was relying on various advice for his >east coast choices. > >>As for pity-parties, though, Wieners is right in there (as Kevin says), >>getting the shindig started. But his self-pity comes off as faded >>grandeur. And somehow we love him for it. > >Nice way to put it, Hon. > > -- George Bowering Per ardua ad astra. Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 13:55:06 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Plath In-Reply-To: <000701c277ae$9571e740$d3d50044@vaio> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >kennedy was, i believe, a co-editor of the burning deck magazine... > My faith is shaken -- George Bowering Per ardua ad astra. Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 17:12:48 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Administration Subject: Welcome Message - last updated 17 September 2002 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Welcome to the Poetics List & The Electronic Poetry Center ..sponsored by The Poetics Program, Department of English, College of Arts & Science, the State University of New York, Buffalo /// Postal Address: Poetics Program, 438 Clemens Hall, SUNY Buffalo, NY 14260 Poetics List Moderator: Christopher W. Alexander Please address all inquiries to . Electronic Poetry Center: =3D Contents =3D 1. About the Poetics List 2. Subscriptions 3. Posting to the List 4. Cautions 5. Digest Option 6. Temporarily turning off Poetics mail 7. "Review Subscribership" Policy 8. The Electronic Poetry Center (EPC) 9. Poetics Archives at EPC This Welcome Message updated 17 September 2002. -- Above the world-weary horizons New obstacles for exchange arise Or unfold, O ye postmasters! 1. About the Poetics List With the preceeding epigraph, the Poetics List was founded by Charles Bernstein in late 1993. Now in its second incarnation, the list carries over 900 subscribers worldwide, though all of these subscribers do not necessarily receive messages at any given time. A good number of other people read the Poetics List via our web archives at the Electronic Poetry Center (see section 10 below). Our aim is to support, inform, and extend those directions in poetry that are committed to innovations, renovations, and investigations of form and/or/as content, to the questioning of received forms and styles, and to the creation of the otherwise unimagined, untried, unexpected, improbable, and impossible. We recognize that other lists may sponsor other possibilities for exchange in this still-new medium. We request that those participating in this forum keep in mind the specialized and focussed nature of this project, and respect our decision to operate a moderated list. For subscription information or to contact the moderators, write to . Please note that this is a private list and information about this list should not be posted to other lists or directories of lists. The idea is to keep the list membership to those with specific rather than general interests, and also to keep the scale of the list relatively small and the volume manageable. The current limits of the list are 50 messages per day, and two messages per subscriber per day. The Poetics List is a moderated list. Due to the increasing number of subscribers, we are no longer able to maintain the open format with which the list began (at under 100 subscribers). All submissions are reviewed by the moderators in keeping with the goals of the list, as articulated in this Welcome Message. The specific form of moderation that we employ is a relatively fluid one: in most cases, messages are reviewed after having been posted to the list, and difficulties resolved on that basis; however, the list moderators may shift with impunity between this and a pre-review mode which calls for all messages to be read and approved before being forwarded to the list. We prefer to avoid this option, as it hampers the spontaneity of discussion that we hope to promote. In addition to these options, the list moderators may place subscribers who find themselves unable to abide by the rules of the list under individual review, in which case only their messages would be received for moderators' approval before being forwarded to the list. For further information, please see number 4, the Cautions section of this Welcome Message. We remain committed to this editorial function as a defining element of the Poetics List. Those few individuals who are no longer welcome to post on this list have forfeited that right because of their refusal to abide by list policies as stated in this Welcome message. While we adhere to a practice of not discussing particular cases on the list, the areas of our greatest concern include flaming of other list subscribers, including the list owners, and/or giving us false registration information. Please note some individuals have publicized false accounts of the policies of the Poetics List. We have deemed it unwise to respond directly to the flames of the list, preferring simply to note here that the Poetics List exists to support and encourage divergent points of view on Modern and contemporary poetry and poetics. We are committed to do what is necessary to preserve this space for such dialog, as well as announcements of events important to our subscribers. 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Please do not publish list postings without the express permission of the author! Posting on the list is a form of publication. Copyright for all material posted on Poetics remains with the author; material from this list and its archive may not be reproduced without the author's permission, beyond the standard rights accorded by "fair use" of published materials. As an outside maximum, we will accept no more than 2 messages per day from any one subscriber; in general, we expect subscribers to keep their post to less than 10-15 posts per month. Our goal is a manageable list (manageable both for moderators and subscribers) of 50 or fewer messages per day. Like all machines, the listserver will sometimes be down: if you feel your message has been delayed or lost, *please wait at least one day to see if it shows up*, then check the archive to be sure the message is not posted there; if you still feel there is a problem, you may wish to contact the moderators at . ------------------- 5. Subscription Options It is possible to receive the Poetics List as separate posts or as daily digests. When you subscribe, the default setting is "regular," meaning you will receive a separate email for each message distributed to the list. Regular: The default option, this is the form in which you will receive the list if you choose no other. With a "regular" subscription, you receive individual postings immediately, as they are OK'd by the list moderator. To revert to this option if you are currently receiving the list in digest form, send a one-line message with no "subject" line to The body of the message should contain the following text: set poetics nodigest Your subscription options will be updated automatically. Digest: With a "digest" subscription, you receive larger messages (called "digests") at regular intervals, usually once per day. These "digests" are collections of individual list postings. 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An index subscription is ideal if you have a slow connection and only read a few hand-picked messages. The indexes are very short and you do not have to worry about long download times. The drawback of course is that you need to maintain your internet connection or reconnect to order messages of interest from the server. You can choose to have the index sent to you in either a traditional format (plain text) or in HTML format with hyperlinks. Using the HTML index, you may click on a link provided with each message to open your web browser to that message in the Poetics List archive. To receive the Poetics List in index form, send a one-line message with no "subject" line to The body of the message should contain, for the text-only index: set poetics nohtml index And for the hyper-link index: set poetics html index Your subscription options will be updated automatically. NOTE!! Send these messages to "listserv" not to Poetics or as a reply to this Welcome Message!! ------------------- 6. Temporarily turning off Poetics mail Please do not leave your Poetics subscription "active" if you are going to be away for any extended period of time! Your account may become flooded and you may lose not only Poetics messages but other important mail. You can temporarily turn off your Poetics subscription by sending this one-line message, with no "subject" line, to : set poetics nomail You may re-activate your poetics subscription by sending this one-line message, with no "subject" line, to the same address: set poetics mail When you return you can check or download missed postings from the Poetics archive. (See section 9 below.) ------------------- 7. "Review Subscribership" policy For the safety and security of list subscribers, the "review subscribers" function of the Poetics List has been de-activated. Non-posting subscribers' email addresses will remain confidential. Please do not ask the list editors to give out subscriber addresses or other personal information. Address queries are, of course, welcome to be posted to the list. ------------------- 8. What is the Electronic Poetry Center? The World Wide Web-based Electronic Poetry Center is located at . The EPC's mission is to serve as a gateway to the extraordinary range of activity in formally innovative writing and digital media poetry in the United States and around the world. The Center provides access to extensive resources in new poetries. These include our E-POETRY library, our links to digital VIDEO and SOUND (including our award-winning LINEbreak series of radio interviews and performances) as well as e-journals such as lume, Deluxe Rubber Chicken, Alyricmailer, and many others, the POETICS List archives, an AUTHOR library of electronic poetry texts and bibliographies, and direct connections to numerous related electronic RESOURCES. The Center also provides information about contemporary electronic poetry magazines and print little magazines and SMALL PRESSES engaged in poetry and poetics. Visit the EPC's many libraries, the featured resources available on the EPC home page, or its NEW listings, where recent additions are available for quick access. The EPC is directed by Loss Peque=F1o Glazier. ------------------- 9. Poetics Archives at the EPC Go to the Electronic Poetry Center and select the "Poetics" link from the opening screen. Follow the links to Poetics Archives. Or set your browser to go directly to . You may browse the Poetics List archives by month and year or search them for specific information. Your interface will allow you to print or download any of these files. Please note that it is possible to toggle between proportional and non-proportional fonts in viewing archived messages; a feature that may be useful to interpret messages reliant on the neat spacing of a proportional font, or that require the "word wrap" feature of same - and useful, too, for aesthetic reasons. To change the display font of an archived message, simply follow the "proportional font" or "non-proportional font" link at the top of the message. -- END OF POETICS LIST WELCOME MSG ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 17:21:33 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Administration Subject: Poetics List stats MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The following is a breakdown of Poetics List subscribers by country. Please note the relative inaccuracy built into the system: non-U.S. email addresses that do not end in a country code (e.g., ".ca" for Canada) are grouped by the Listserv program with U.S. addresses. It's a glitch that's never far out of step with U.S. foreign policy, anyway - Christopher W. Alexander poetics list admin -- Country Subscribers ------- ----------- Argentina 1 Australia 13 Austria 1 Belgium 2 Brazil 1 Canada 43 Denmark 1 Finland 2 France 3 Germany 3 Great Britain 16 India 1 Ireland 5 Israel 1 Italy 1 Japan 4 New Zealand 11 Niue 1 Norway 1 Singapore 1 Spain 2 Sweden 3 Switzerland 1 Thailand 1 Turkey 1 USA 792 Yugoslavia 1 Total number of users subscribed to the list: 916 Total number of countries represented: 27 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 23:45:59 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lakey Teasdale Subject: Distance of Sea extended. Virginia: compare by measure of weight Comments: To: "WRYTING-L : Writing and Theory across Disciplines" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Distance of Sea extended. Virginia: compare by measure of weight maybe you would have told her. Anyway. Narrative appeared. Understanding began and. It was. Perhaps actually warm that day. Striking you as contemporary. As bombs and/or suicide. intentional. Penetrates. Not necessarily more. Warm. the chill chill wind: airt due North. Just north. Intimate edge of. Time & due. In=20 forming, informing. Fully observed, disconcerts. She paces. paced. Layers. Of layers. of cannot. Simply.=20 cannot. Remember? Ask. To be certain. whether created the. Observe voices and judgement. For example: Years ago. Years ago. His grandfather warned them: World's all out of control! The alarum They wept. Exigent liturgical shock. Captured a fleet! and the branches. Articulate space. Letters have weight one cannot fathom. Cannot. At all. From here distant as=20 Leaves. The gold leaves. Illuminati. Enunciate content. Imply per aspera enviable adscript. Speak. Past regretting. Regret. Leaves. The gold leaves. Illuminati. Enunciate content. Imply per aspera enviable adscript. Speak. Past regretting. Regret. Eight tons. maybe a boat? or. a wreck? Eight tons:=20 the fish landing? Counted in boxes? Tractors, bales=20 of hay, heads of kye? as they say. the Night-wrack. memory bottled=20 covered in tides retrospection. re- mote. covered in None of which. Sing. Avoirdupois.=20 Redolent. Post-storm. Perfection.=20 None of which. Sang. Avoirdupois.=20 Redolent. Post-storm. Destruction.=20 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 18:41:14 -0700 Reply-To: Lanny Quarles Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lanny Quarles Subject: Magnus Irvin's piece about Bob Cobbing: Comments: To: WRYTING-L@listserv.utoronto.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Magnus Irvin's piece about Bob Cobbing: An insert w/ the London Institute of Pataphysics Activity Bulletin http://www.hevanet.com/solipsis/desktopcollage/bcobbingirvin1.jpg http://www.hevanet.com/solipsis/desktopcollage/bcobbingirvin2.jpg ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 12:03:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sawako Nakayasu Subject: Anyone in Tokyo? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hello all, Are any of you out there in Tokyo? Anyone know poets/writers/artists in Tokyo? Nearby? (So far I just know about Cid Corman in Kyoto.) Would appreciate your backchanneling-- thanks, Sawako ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 03:59:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: jottings Comments: To: webartery@yahoogroups.com MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT some unformed thoughts that don't seem to readily fit into recent discussions of the usual topics. tom bell Practice Jottings "The Greek word, _Poesis, derived from _poien (to make), conveys two kinds of creation: the inspired creation that resembles a godlike power and the difficult material struggle, the _techne of making forms out of the resources available. Poetry's work of creating the figure of the human proceeds by means of imagination and a material engagement with the resources of language." = Stewart, Susan, _Poetry and the Fate of the Senses, Univ. of Chicago, 2002. ->< http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/authors/glazier/dp/ But also to April and a piece in process 2 years ago and now temporarily disappeared dropslpla http://trbell.tripod.com/carnival/dropspla.htm needs process needs to move. "Poetry can only stake out its proper place for itself - resisting today's media-saturated world - by creating unconforming forms that ceaselessly raise the question of how meaning is articulated in language." Antoine Caze', "Margins of Theory, Theory of Margins," _The mechanics of the Mirage: Postwar American Poetry, Belgium, Univ of Liege, 2000. http://www.ulg.ac.be/facphl/uer/d-german/L3/pwap.html Does meaning happen in language or in the mind or in the body or in the spirit or in ? http://writing.upenn.edu/AandL/english/pubs/spc/alyric/bell/Moving.htm "What travels in our cultural ruts today and seems to be accepted with little question is that the body is often little more than a technical function but is understood only vaguely or not at all as a cultural symptom." Romanshyn, R. _Technology as Symptom and Dream, NY, Routledge, 1989. Dwelling in the body Dwelling in the world Unease in the world "Perhaps we are about to remember again the forgotten celebrating. perhaps we are about to find our way back through the strange detour through telmetics to 'authentic' being human, which is to say, to celebratory existence for the other, to purposeless play with others and for others." "We live by the urgent wave of the verse." http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/poets/m_r/niedecker/paean.htm &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&cetera: Poetry at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/publicat.html Gallery - Metaphor/Metonym for Health at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/metaphor/metapho.htm Health articles at http://psychology.healingwell.com/ Reviews at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/reviews.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 02:10:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII didn't i'm want sick to of write it, about i any stay of out this. of i'm didn't sick want it, write i about stay any out of discussions, want they're to too write painful. about jews. discussions, you they're not too one painful. then anything. don't europe know and anything. british europe empire and refused british them, empire didn't refused then them, don't help. i so was nothing. shot israel if palestine. you was then shot help. at. so if nothing. never, israel you're ignorant. ignorant. middle-eastern middle-eastern psychosis psychosis over over decades. decades. i've i've been been there, there, you're arab all jewish walk friends. first we're in all my racists. shoes walk then first arab in and my jewish shoes friends. i'll else's listen. than someone no else's group's than exempt. your i've own. i'll no listen. group's walk exempt. in there have many idea times. what's have on. idea been what's there going too on. many worlds times. corralled, to lassoed, write by a words. long wanted on a corralled, long lassoed, essay by on words. this, i the wanted experient- ial the political, what's but the point. contaminate rather experiential contaminate of writing, back this the text, usual. play own back life's usual. the own this life's text, exempt, not country's the holocaust the continues same same country's names have world-wide, you felt have it. you eaten-holocaust, names drank world-wide, drunk-holocaust. me tell excuses. me without excuses. we without might we drunk-holocaust. might don't you. chains with - usual all chains over - you. wouldn't it, word, blind, what deaf, talking you about, can blind, is deaf, speak can i'm do talking is about, speak you're speak, death-wish speak. to it's judge death-wish other. judge started other. speak, started it's way the before had now, its every pogroms, country you had wouldn't its know, pogroms, you know, now, haven't country wrong you end even gun. suffocating even the marched. wrong suffocating of me, know :: didn't want to write about any of this. you wouldn't know, you haven't been on the wrong end of a gun. have you even marched. you're suffocating me, you don't know what this is all about, do you. === ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 02:14:02 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: excise MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII excise To: sondheim@panix.com [ "l To: sondheim@panix.com Get Help ^O WriteOut To: sondheim@panix.comPg ^K Cut Text ^C C To: sondheim@panix.com To: sondheim@panix.com]o yy To: sondheim@panix.comt Text ^C Cur Poser o To: sondheim@panix.com usual. your own life' To: sondheim@panix.comtry ^X Exit ^J Ju To: sondheim@panix.com Next Pg ^U UnCut Te To: sondheim@panix.com, nom holocaust contin To: sondheim@panix.comorld-wide, have you f N To: sondheim@panix.comating of me, know :: d To: sondheim@panix.comut any of this. europ To: sondheim@panix.com.net europeet Hel brit To: sondheim@panix.comu wouldn't know, you h To: sondheim@panix.comg end of a gun. have y To: sondheim@panix.com^R R ^G Get Help ^O W ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 02:05:12 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: URBAN TEXT KULT ARIAL ZELTZER R G B #001 Comments: To: 7-11@mail.ljudmila.org, ImitationPoetics@listserv.unc.edu, o-o@konf.lt, webartery@yahoogroups.com, syndicate@anart.no, _arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au, owner-realpoetik@scn.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (note: in this new series this is what i did - i converted the binary code of different graphic formats into ascii text - this piece is an excerpt from a rgb image - then for the cover artwork of each volume i used screenshot software with a timer to capture the text from the atmosphere series of teddy warburg's voice of the village (www.voice-of-the-village.com) - and as the timer captured screenshots of the text i kept the scrollbar depressed - this approach was influenced by my phone conversations with the semiotic theoretician professor paul bouissac, the new media artist lanny quarles, and the multimedialist and critic lewis lacook) ARIAL ZELTZER R G B #001 excerpt www.urbantextkult.com XHYYZ[\]^_r`=aabc9cdeNefg2ghi, ijkYllm. mmn]no(oopXpqqqrIrssxstBtuucuv 'vvwRwxxxyVyz&zz{Z{|(||}U}~~r~ , f6nz _JQ*\>?_@@AdBBCWCDEJEFG#GHOH IJV0 xV4pYBzS,z]@'4nC1n@0<\tv~B0, [XerrP4 \( pBaBv@X) Y!&!"#$p%V&<'.( ()*+, -.i/N071 223456789:; <=~>z?y@xApBhCeDbE^FZGOHDI@J jP,dJl8Xv 0Xp6Ur DKB54>Rz2\ Z L n8<5LGF@ & n""#e$$%T%&'?'() )*b++,F,-../T/01412r334X456; 67889\9:;8; <~==>`??@J@AB*BCjDDEKEFG0GHhII JMJKL6LM|NNO[PPQBQRSSTXTUV8VWX XYLYZ[: [\n]]^S^_`(`ajbbcJcde6ef^ggh?h ij&jkJklm=mnxoopBpqr/rsdttu uvvwwx0xykzz{L{|}-}~x`I@<0'tn_ nPNOL\jn>?e?@i@AkABbBCZCD\DE\E FPFGEGHAHI@IJBJKAKL7LM0MN; NODOPEPQIQRRRSVSTSTUVUV[VWTWXB XY1YZZ[ [[\n\]b]^X^_L_`:`a, ab>bcNcdpdef&fg\ghi4ijkvwwxxy&yzb { {|>|}d}~)_"& nN/vrzplR0 }_I,+?2Z|Ir&']'(|))*(*+4+,R,-h-.//0. 01L12h23445>56Z67t8899:E:; n<<= =>">?z _JQ*\>?_@@AdBBCWCDEJEFG#GHOH IJV0 xV4pYBzS,z]@'4nC1n@0<\tv~B0, [XerrP4 \( pBaBv@X) Y!&!"#$p%V&<'.( ()*+, -.i/N071 223456789:; <=~>z?y@xApBhCeDbE^FZGOHDI@J jP,dJl8Xv 0Xp6Ur DKB54>Rz2\ Z L n8<5LGF@ & n""#e$$%T%&'?'() )*b++,F,-../T/01412r334X456; 67889\9:;8; <~==>`??@J@AB*BCjDDEKEFG0GHhII JMJKL6LM|NNO[PPQBQRSSTXTUV8VWX XYLYZ[: [\n]]^S^_`(`ajbbcJcde6ef^ggh?h ij&jkJklm=mnxoopBpqr/rsdttu uvvwwx0xykzz{L{|}-}~x`I@<0'tn_ nPNOL\jn>?e?@i@AkABbBCZCD\DE\E FPFGEGHAHI@IJBJKAKL7LM0MN; NODOPEPQIQRRRSVSTSTUVUV[VWTWXB XY1YZZ[ [[\n\]b]^X^_L_`:`a, ab>bcNcdpdef&fg\ghi4ijkvwwxxy&yzb { {|>|}d}~)_"& nN/vrzplR0 }_I,+?2Z|IrE@;. '~89*{)D m-4? ^ (C 6 %rw-*{fM8!ts^H6;4py!nk t !!_! ""f"##e#$$l$%%g%&&N&&'S''(<(() A))*2**+3++,8,,-/-x-.&.y. //f/00g011h122e233b334M445L566 67b78=8999:p:;X; 0>??@@AA{ABiBC_CDZDEWEF RFGLGHJHIPIJZJKmKL{LM|MN}NOPPQ QyQRhRSvTTUUVVWWXXYYZZ[[[\~]]^ ^_"_`.`a(ab*bccddeef.fg>gh. hisNB@6NH'U ,Br 2=H[ fq#|.E\o%8GNYp*CTgx0X LwFzJT$b4bB$pBqK. dVL>"f"OMWh_VQL?2c>xJ c. ^t;NKb*W z!5!"#`$$%~&, &'(?()*^+ +,m--./9/01F123S345R567;78z99: `;; >?V?@A4ABC&CDVDEF6FGxH"HI FIJK>KLiLMN@NOPPQRQRS,SThTUV. VWlXXY$YZv[[\0\]h]^_>_`N`ab1bc bcd|def@fgh hiCijhjkllmvnnoopUpq~rrs0stuuv 3vwgxxyyz0z{^{|p|}~~5Qf(J0Uo: h Mq : \fj~#BXfp6NNj"@\n{(Np-AaF`~! [HM6?$3yleje TL2/h%B6DjihYJ ) a&sLpDb$x7 ! r"%"#$H$%&A&'(X))*q+$+,-G.. /0<012l30345h6=7789d:2;; <=>@>?@~AVB.BCDEbF: GGHIJKxLVMBN.OOPQRSdT; UUVWXYwZ^[>\]]^_`paBbbcde]f, fghijdkADEFILMNQTMFE@3*{! vidWN=4#xgVM4/kVIJJB"S%b, [+d2Y --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.404 / Virus Database: 228 - Release Date: 10/15/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 00:23:08 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: response to re: re repsonse to re response and What are we? What can we do? Can we we can. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alan. I'm responding now to the "writer Alan" or he so-called "persona" and I have to say that this is good hard hitting stuff, (maybe not the most subtle terminology I admit) as they say. And I like the double or multiple immplications here...of course "you" dont want to be "involved" into something that disturbs and eg I dont want to hear (currently) anything about the recent bombing in Indonesia for a while...but of course we all stay involved from different distances and "angels" of looking at or from the world, and this is a way of you or the "writer you" being inside your text and also speaking out of it I am affected strongly by this....I know that you are incoroporating this into a larger project but the effect of this one on myself ...it _feels_ like its directed to me (that is maybe the way a lot of people may respond to it -feeling it is directed to them (eg I see the "israel you're ignorant", well the "you're ignorant" leaps out (and about Israel/the world maybe I am in certain ways but of course reading more carefully that also says (with other things) (or implies) another "speaker" talking to 'us', or the Alan in there, "you Israelis, you American pro-Israelis or Jewish people are ignorant - of course that's only a fraction of what can be "read into'it...) or similar things you do)..and not many of us have been "on the wrong end of a gun"...and true..its "impossible" to know so I take this as being as "commtited" and as psychologically or existentially and even as politically intense (in fact in some ways it is more so) than Baraka's harrangue (which I still think was a good thing as I see it as a kind of challenge to the right wing: and/but you see it maybe as a diatribe). This "response" of yours, is, well its intense. This is where the talk of "readerly" and "writerely" has application: in fact I think that this is the kind of thing I was thinking of as a "bridge" between the best of the confessionals and language poetry etc it enriches he totality of the skein of what you are creating. Jabes "Book of Questions" of found good but too remote for me but this kind of thing strikes home: and the method (common but still strong) of interlacing links into a poem in your other post is also effective: there is no doubt of the originality nad the meaningfulness and sometimes the courage of the "Alan (persona?) in the text Alan"..and in these ones the "real" Alan is surely not far under the surface. There is in fact an extaordinary intensity gained by the inverted syntax and the sentence level "chopping" and the end is acusatory and sounds hurting: I read this more than a lot of other things you have done. To the poem () I say: you disturbed me very much () and that is a sign and i dont do () know i am dust what () do i know i'm never in been there i , i, i, i have been hurt,() () 00 () () hurthurt, ou you you, we we we,and in there () and the british () and the stern () and the gangs (who began who) and the good and i didnt but i did and i and i to(o) of write too am sick so much () () oo ()() out i speak and but (o) that which knows must know and teribble are shot and endings () and the voices there were too () many voices () 00 () and the silence () and the women () () () and the people ()()()() and the rubble and () what was that, and you dont, () we cant ,()() we dont know do we, () and i'm not in the movie, its too, i'm not, what am what are they where did () they () go who will reach out,() who who who () () (), and theywere refused, and it began, () and shot and painful thinking and thinking of who () is thinking and why () am i being and who is being and who () is a-pulse who wh() () () () () () () () () () () () () () () () () () () () () () () () () () () () () () () () () This is my response to your work which is immediate: not mediated as such. Richard Taylor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Sondheim" To: Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2002 7:10 PM > didn't i'm want sick to of write it, about i any stay of out this. of i'm > didn't sick want it, write i about stay any out of discussions, want > they're to too write painful. about jews. discussions, you they're not too > one painful. then anything. don't europe know and anything. british europe > empire and refused british them, empire didn't refused then them, don't > help. i so was nothing. shot israel if palestine. you was then shot help. > at. so if nothing. never, israel you're ignorant. ignorant. middle-eastern > middle-eastern psychosis psychosis over over decades. decades. i've i've > been been there, there, you're arab all jewish walk friends. first we're > in all my racists. shoes walk then first arab in and my jewish shoes > friends. i'll else's listen. than someone no else's group's than exempt. > your i've own. i'll no listen. group's walk exempt. in there have many > idea times. what's have on. idea been what's there going too on. many > worlds times. corralled, to lassoed, write by a words. long wanted on a > corralled, long lassoed, essay by on words. this, i the wanted experient- > ial the political, what's but the point. contaminate rather experiential > contaminate of writing, back this the text, usual. play own back life's > usual. the own this life's text, exempt, not country's the holocaust the > continues same same country's names have world-wide, you felt have it. you > eaten-holocaust, names drank world-wide, drunk-holocaust. me tell excuses. > me without excuses. we without might we drunk-holocaust. might don't you. > chains with - usual all chains over - you. wouldn't it, word, blind, what > deaf, talking you about, can blind, is deaf, speak can i'm do talking is > about, speak you're speak, death-wish speak. to it's judge death-wish > other. judge started other. speak, started it's way the before had now, > its every pogroms, country you had wouldn't its know, pogroms, you know, > now, haven't country wrong you end even gun. suffocating even the marched. > wrong suffocating of me, know :: didn't want to write about any of this. > you wouldn't know, you haven't been on the wrong end of a gun. have you > even marched. you're suffocating me, you don't know what this is all > about, do you. > > > === ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 08:44:18 -0400 Reply-To: ron.silliman@gte.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Subject: Poet laureate quits MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From tragedy (Baraka) to farce (Troupe) in a single month. Ron Poet laureate quits over fudged resume Creative writing professor admits lying about degree Kelly St. John, Chronicle Staff Writer Sunday, October 20, 2002 C2002 San Francisco Chronicle. URL: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2002/10/20/BA186979.DTL California's first official poet laureate, Quincy Troupe, has resigned after acknowledging he lied on his resume about graduating from college. And the admission could even cost him his tenured position as a creative writing and literature professor at the University of California at San Diego. Troupe, 62, submitted a letter of resignation to Gov. Gray Davis late Friday night. He had held the poet laureate post for four months. "I deeply regret my ill-advised decision to include inaccurate information on my curriculum vitae," Troupe said in a statement released by the governor's office. "While I attended Grambling College, I never earned a college degree." The discrepancy was discovered in a background check by the state Senate Rules Committee, which had been preparing for his confirmation hearing, said Davis spokeswoman Hilary McLean. Davis appointed Troupe to the post on June 11. The job, which requires a minimum of six poetry readings during a two-year term, is not salaried but includes a $10,000 yearly honorarium. "Mr. Troupe is a great poet, and he's a great person. He brought a lot of excitement to the idea of poetry in our lives," McLean said Saturday. "This doesn't take anything away from his accomplishments." Troupe, a St. Louis native who lives in La Jolla, called his tenure as poet laureate "one of the high points" of his career. "I am honored and privileged to have served in that position, albeit for a short time," he said in his statement. "I now look forward to turning my full attention to continuing to teach and develop students at UCSD, to developing literary and music programs in the San Diego community, and to writing books." But the revelations could jeopardize Troupe's post at UCSD, where he has taught since 1991. Troupe formally told the university Thursday that he had not graduated from Grambling, said Jim Langley, vice chancellor for external affairs. His situation constitutes a violation of the faculty code of conduct, and Troupe faces a formal review. Punishment could range from a reprimand to a recommendation for dismissal, Langley said. The university, which is still investigating similar precedents of tenured professors who do not have bachelor's degrees, will complete its review in six weeks, he said. "This is a senior, tenured professor and very accomplished, so obviously this is a difficult case," Langley said. Troupe joins a growing list of public figures who have been discovered to have taken poetic license with their resumes. U.S. Olympic Committee head Sandra Baldwin and Notre Dame football coach George O'Leary both resigned after it was learned they fudged their academic credentials. McLean said the California Arts Council, which chose Troupe for the post after considering more than 50 candidates, will determine how to replace him. Two Northern California poets -- Francisco X. Alarcon, 48, of Davis and Diane DiPrima, 67, of San Francisco -- had been the other finalists for the post. DiPrima was out of town Saturday at a Detroit poetry reading. Her partner, Sheppard Powell, said she had not been contacted by the governor's office. Alarcon could not be reached Saturday. Troupe has been praised for promoting literacy within the schools. His 13th book, "take it to the hoop, Magic Johnson" is based on his "poem for Magic" and was published as a children's book. Troupe edited "James Baldwin: The Legacy" and co-authored an autobiography of jazz musician Miles Davis. He has also won two American Book Awards for poetry and nonfiction, and a Peabody Award for co-producing a radio show about Miles Davis. Troupe is not the only state poet laureate to attract unwanted attention. New Jersey's poet laureate, Amiri Baraka, has been strongly criticized for writing allegedly anti-Semitic verse. Despite a call by New Jersey Gov. James McGreevey for his resignation, Baraka has refused to step down. E-mail Kelly St. John at kstjohn@sfchronicle.com. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 09:36:32 -0400 Reply-To: men2@columbia.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Millie Niss Subject: Special Guest at NAMI POetry Workshop in NYC Comments: To: consumer voices in NAMI KnowHow MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As some of you know, I lead a poetry workshop every other month (alternate months the workshop is led by Narney Lattimore-- we work indeoendently and don't even know what the other ios doing much of the time, but he does more close readings of famous poems while I do more reading of contemporary and avant garde poems and writing exercises and games (a la surrealist game, if you know what that's about, it's a kind of game for poets, not for children!) in class) at NAMI NYC-Metro (which has as little to do with my workshop as posssible although now they brag about having it...). This Wednesday, Oct 23rd, I have invited a publiushed and anthologized poet Brenda Coultas (in New American Poets, ed, Jarnot, et al and Heights of the Hudson, edited by Todd Colby, for example) to come help woth the workshop. She will listen to our poems, read her own work, and talk about and answer questions on getting published, making it as a full-time poet, etc. It should be a lot of fun. She is not a consumer, as far as I know. However she knows this is for a consumer audience amd says she teaches non traditional students at her teaching job, and was very clued whne we exchanged mail about what the group was like. I hope that some of you can come! In any case I welcome you to come any other month for the workshop as well. I will be doing next months workshop. It meets at 732 Park Ave South, Suite 710 (between 29th and 30th) which is the National Alliance for the Mentally Ill of New York City Metro. Meeting date is the fourt Wendesday of the month, and the time is 6:30 although I have a tendency to be late (there will be someone there who will organize peple reading their poems to the group before I arrive. I usually have a schedule of exercises and readings planned, and we read each other the poems we write in class but I don't do much open reading of poems, because I want this to be a workshop where people can come who want to write poetry but have not yet written any they want to share, and reading student poems favors those who come in with them. But I will read and comment on any poem you bring in after the workshop or between workshops and give it a careful read and thoughtful response. I do plan to have a spoecial meeting/party where we can all read our poems, some time this winter probably right before Christmas. The meetings are open to anyone who has a mental illness or for some reason feels that their experience puts them in a position of solidarity (equality) with people who have mental illness (for example someone came who was not officially ill but quite chronically upset from childhood abuse; someone else might be extremely stressed to the point of feeling alientated from peers, even if it is from a reality based source like grad school or work; another person might be in poverty and share our dependence on the government and the lack of opportunities we have for self-improvement). This does not include most parents of the mentally ill, who in general do not see themselves as equal to the person with the illness. Obviously you should have an interest in reading and writing poetry, but prior education and experience is not necessary. The workshop does not asume the you remember even high school literature; it does however teach adult, college-level concepts and poems, without pressure and homework and allowing students to absorb material at their own rate. With these accomodations I believe that mentally ill folk can attain the same level of competence as non-ill people. For example we studied and wrote villanelles, we read and discussed "difficult" contemporary poets like Clark Coolidge and James Tate, and we had a debate about a passage in Homer's Odyssey. These are advanced topics. But it was done in the spirit of fun, with many breaks, down to earth explanations, game-like writing exercises in-between difficult sections, and a very small group. Hope to see you Wednesday with Brenda Coultas or at a subsequent workshop! Millie ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 10:53:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mairead Byrne Subject: Re: Fwd: Announcing Bird Dog #2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dear Arielle, Please send me a one-paragraph bio, and a few sentences about your proposed reading (as an email attachment). I'm hoping to make a proposal for several readings this week. Also, your preferred dates: I think early December or late February would be good. Mairead >>> ariellecg@YAHOO.COM 09/19/02 08:14 AM >>> > Bird Dog is proud to announce the release of Issue > #2. > > Featuring new work by: Nancy Burr/NBB, Catherine > Daly, Tsering Wangmo > Dhompa, Arielle Greenberg, Michael Leddy, Rachel > Mangold, Bryant Mason, > Paige Menton, Robert Mittenthal, John Olson, C.E. > Putnam, Chad Randle, Liz > Robinson, Spencer Selby, James Shea, Kerri > Sonnenberg, Rodrigo Toscano, Nico > Vassilakis. Plus Jeanne Heuving reviews _hinge_, A > BOAS Anthology and John > Olson reviews _Ceci n'est pas Keith, Ceci n'est pas > Rosmarie_. > > > > Bird Dog is published bi-annually in winter and > summer. 8 1/2 x 11, black & > white, stapled. Subscriptions $12.00 for two issues. > Individual copies $6. > Checks payable to Sarah Mangold. > > Deadline for Issue 3: January 15, 2003 > > > Submissions, Subscriptions, Queries: > Bird Dog > c/o Sarah Mangold > 1819 18th Avenue > Seattle, WA 98122 > www.birddogmagazine.com > > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 09:43:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: SPIDERTANGLE the_book Comments: cc: spidertangle@yahoogroups.com, ubuweb@yahoogroups.com, WRYTING-L Disciplines , webartery@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v543) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit SPIDERTANGLE the_book a coincidental miscellany of now vispo works by mIEKAL aND/Camille Bacos, William James Austin, Michael Basinski, Maria Damon, David Daniels, K.S. Ernst, Ficus Strangulensis, Peter Ganick, Jesse Glass, Bob Grumman, Scott Helmes, Crag Hill, Joe Keenan, Bill Keith, Richard Kostelanetz, Jim Leftwich, Joel Lipman, Carlos Luis, Mike Magazinnik, Malok, Lewis LaCook, Sheila Murphy, Lanny Quarles, Marilyn R. Rosenberg, Igor Satanovsky, Andrew Topel, Nico Vassilakis & Karl Young designed by mIEKAL aND 32 pages, 5.5 x 8.5, ALL COLOR!, $12 | hand-bound hardcover $30. includes shipping. (a limited number of review copies are available) "...a return to the morning when imagery shades the pages of books kept open for all passersby to see thereby detailing the distribution of iconic & polysemic thoughtforms for the century ahead. the bliss of color proposes another underground renaissance of hand-to-hand interactions backboned by electronic ethereal interactive networking." XEXOXIAL EDITIONS 10375 Cty Hway A LaFarge, WI 54639 USA dtv@mwt.net http://cla.umn.edu/joglars/xe ____________________________________________ this book was collectively edited & assembled online via SPIDERTANGLE, a mailinglist devoted to using online resources to produce hard copy publications. our next project will be "bob cobbing lives in alliteration" a collection of sound poetry texts & mp3 realizations. if you are interested in participating in this project you can join the group at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/spidertangle/ or if you would like to view the online version of SPIDERTANGLE the_book: http://cla.umn.edu/joglars/spidertangle/the_book/ in the age of mailinglists, cross-posting seems unavoidable, delete where necessary. or better yet, please distribute. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 11:19:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Kimmelman, Burt" Subject: Essays for Book MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Hi, A contributor or two are needed to write essays on "Thomas Lux" (500 words) and "Armand Schwerner" (1000 words), for a volume entitled A Companion to Twentieth-Century American Poetry (to be published in 2004 by Facts on File, Inc., a publisher that enjoys very wide distribution in libraries, colleges and high schools, as well as bookstores). Payment for essays will be in presentational offprints. All essays will carry their author's name, and a list of contributors will appear in the back of the book. The entire list of entries for the volume can be viewed at this website: http://eies.njit.edu/~kimmelma/companion.html; also at the website can be found a set of guidelines for writing the essays as well as sample, model essays. If you are interested in writing for this book, then please send a message to Kimmelman@njit.edu, using the subject header Essays for Book (or else simply reply to this message). Please provide a bit of background about yourself (if I don't know you already) including a brief account of your publishing history if you have one (do NOT send an attached cv or samples of writing). Thanks, Burt Kimmelman Dr. Burt Kimmelman, Associate Professor of English Department of Humanities and Social Sciences New Jersey Institute of Technology Newark, New Jersey 07102 973.596.3376 (p); 973.642.4689 (f) kimmelman@njit.edu http://eies.njit.edu/~kimmelma ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 11:52:39 -0400 Reply-To: ron.silliman@gte.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Subject: Women in (or not) the NAP MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here's Charles Olson on the subject of Diane DiPrima in 1962 from that PDF file of his talk at Goddard College in Vermont that Louis Cabri et al just posted to the Slought website: "The next poem has just recently been-appeared in New York, in-I'm trying to think where it did appear? Oh yes, in LeRoi Jones' Floating Bear if you know this remarkable, mimeographed magazine, which is appearing in our time. Do you know? Do any of you know this great editor? The greatest editor since Robert Creeley, and Jones has been putting this thing out for a couple of-oh no, maybe it's not been a year, with Diane Di Prima. She does the typing most remarkably. [Coughing in audience] No, I say, say that, very odd, don't think I'm putting her down, wow, I mean, I published the most terrible thing that was ever written last year called, "A Grammar-A Book." And it's nothing but parts of speech; and she took my typed copy and put it in mimeograph so there wasn't a-and it's all tilted, and squeezed and shoved, and the only trouble is that the mimeograph doesn't make sense; actually it's the typewriter that can't make the same effect as a typewriter, but that's not her fault, she did it marvelously, it was like the greatest publishing I ever had, was like Miss Di Prima." ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 18:09:28 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lakey Teasdale Subject: Virginia: infinitely far. The tomb and ditch. Passage and door Comments: To: "WRYTING-L : Writing and Theory across Disciplines" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Virginia: infinitely far. The tomb and ditch. Passage and door So difficult to parallel among. The shortest day. midwinter sunset. And in evenings shines. Just into. A low door. What is more likely? sunset=20 or forget? Jerusalem. ever forget and your Heroes and Martyrs. Your flame. Design and designed. To be shut from the inside. Made of. Stone slabs. Neat and practical and designed. To be shut from the inside. Made of. Stone slabs. Neat and practical women. Wailing and weeping and wringing of hands No wall outside the ditch then. Imagine. The landscape,=20 drained. The rushes. a mound. Imagine the wailing. All. and on the wall. Many a woman walked stooping in here. Many a woman walked you and your. Strife! Battles! Dire! Desolation. a consternation of. Hell! and your killing fields! Hell and. Cold. Cold, silent horrors. Cold. War the numbers. Graffiti: the numbers on. Arms and the man. Arms and the woman of. Don't want to. Eternal. Abominations. Your heroes and martyrs It's surely true. And what I say Treasure. Carried, taken away. It's surely true. And what I say Treasure. Carried, taken away. Oh. Lament for MacNeil o' Sandray lament. Has fallen, has fallen and is No more. the township's mourning-woman. Recall:=20 recall. Recall: plight of the living. The door. Carried=20 off. Press ganged. And died. After a struggle. Failed. told to pack their belongings! Just pack! To be moved. Sorry. so sorry for those. Were deported. and moved. Took their revenge! Just took their revenge! Where to? barracks all burned. Charred remains overgrown long ago. Long long ago. the barracks. All burned. The remains charred. All overgrown long long ago. his wilderness forsaken. They said. Round houses and vigorous people. Break into tombs. The shortest day of the year, sun shines into the chamber. Dark, revolving let the poor? And the needy? let the poor. and the needy. praise. Praise: Rags, wretchedness, poverty. The blind, and assailed. By idiots on every hand. Jerusalem. Oh, if protect the town. protect. watchmen guard in vain. protect the town. protect. watchmen guard in vain. Hep. Hep. Hierosolyma est Perdita. Lost. dark the silent activity. dark. unknown. and. Terrible. both gate and door. Both coming and going. all pathways through ashes. Interpret the ash and the paths. The way through. The ashes. pathways through ashes. Interpret the ash and the paths. The way through. The ashes. and let not. Forget. And forget thee not. and let not. Forget. and forsake thee not. Peace? on each place that lets in light. On each place that lets in. Peace on each place. And the ashes. Each ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 10:15:14 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: Art or Action - Joy Garnett's Bomb Project Comments: To: "arc.hive" <_arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au>, cupcake kaleidoscope , Renee , rhizome , wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii http://www.furtherfield.org/crit/index.htm Art or Action - Joy Garnett's Bomb Project To say that Joy Garnett's Bomb Project is monumental would be an understatement. To say that it's a necessary reminder of the power unleashed at the end of World War II, and of the power the whole world cringed under during the Cold War--that would be more like it. And yet there's more going on here than activism (as if that weren't enough). .. http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html meditation, net art, poeisis: blog http://lewislacook.blogspot.com/ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 13:34:35 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: poem Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Stand by Your Logo Beneath the cap of the Enemy, flirting with Freckled Danger we're umbrellas, not people, pretending to Be Animals, imagining showers in Disregard of the fabulous advice of Street psychics We forgive lovers and Ask for more more more Elsewhere beneath Panting and trips to the Head Panels are being Created To fill the vast Need for Round About answers At a time like Now And in deserted amusement parks clowns are plotting their next squeaky moves It is Especially disquieting tonite to see all of you calmly melting Beneath these ever-hostile pines Back to safety and the dance a fiercely competitive rumba that will Definitely leave us all Behind Beneath 8-balls and wet rocks Light is being scurried from And fevers forgotten for Good _________________________________________________________________ Get a speedy connection with MSN Broadband. Join now! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 13:40:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: poem Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Please Keep Feet and Parcels Push into Dark discarded passenger cars or furious Lines on misprinted Pages Feel as free to Disappoint me as everyone Else apparantly does The small-Breasted have been thrown off the Train, leaving No one And what's worth the distraction? A handful for dinner or a snack? Whatever happened to show-me-yours- I'll-show-you-mine? Another casualty of Actuality. Peanuts and stars are falling to the most Pathetic of laughs They are picking fights over the final Circles of pizza We should be wearing flanel, or kilts cover me up like Iran-Contra And who's to blame, if not the Naked majority suddenly purring from afar They finally gave Nobel a prize But who will give the very big speech? Think ventriloquism dynamite, it's shifting moods and rythyms don't move your lips, you'll be passed over which would be massive _________________________________________________________________ Unlimited Internet access -- and 2 months free! Try MSN. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/2monthsfree.asp ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 13:54:05 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Craig Allen Conrad Subject: BARAKA/FREEDOM OF SPEECH/HOLMAN INTRO MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." --Benjamin Franklin There have been more than a few "poets" I know who seem to have nothing rational or sensible to say about the Baraka situation. The fascist-speak of censorship is NOT something I'm used to hearing from "poets." But maybe I just need to get used to it? Yeah well, I think NOT! Recently I was fortunate enough to hear Bob Holman read his poems in Philadelphia. Earlier that morning he had held a press conference at the Bowery Poetry Club for Baraka to have his say. Holman read his introduction for Baraka for us in Philadelphia, and I asked his permission to share it with the Buffalo List. ---------------------- Introductory Statement to Amiri Baraka Press Conference Thursday, October 17, 2002 11AM Bowery Poetry Club, 308 Bowery, NY NY 10012 212-614-1224 www.bowerypoetry.com Welcome, Press. I'm Bob Holman, the Proprietor of the Bowery Poetry Club. Since we are a poetry club I thought I'd start with some lines by another Jersey poet, William Carlos Williams: It is difficult to get the news from poems yet men die miserably every day for lack of what is found there. The Bowery Poetry Club exists to be a vector, an energy connector, between the poem and the public. We do this through performances, readings, a bookstore, the utilization of all technologies to present the poem itself. This morning we add "press conference" as another means to communicate to the world at large, and we welcome our sister and brother writers, journalists, to our holy spot. We urge you to consider this locus should you wish to find another voice on current events: the voice of the poet, which doesn't often break into the evening news. We believe the First Amendment to be a Poetic License -- to write a poem is to send a space shot into consciousness. Once the poem has landed, its job is to provoke thought, wonderment, dialogue. Amiri Baraka is going to have a four-day run here at the Club (Oct 31-Nov 3). Each evening will begin with a Poets Speakout: poets responding to "Somebody Blew Up America" and the resulting brouhaha. We are totally committed to the right of poets to write the poetry they wish. A poem is Democracy's calling card. Now I present to you the poet who has been called the Father of Contemporary African American Literature, still the Poet laureate of New Jersey, Amiri Baraka. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 14:09:30 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jill Stengel Subject: change of address MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hello, everyone out there in list-land... jill stengel and a+bend press have moved. please contact us at: p.o. box 460237 san francisco, ca 94146 orders for a+bend press books are best placed with small press distribution manuscripts are not being reviewed at this time correspondence is cheerily welcomed (note: this address will change again w/in a few months) fond regards, jill ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 11:20:56 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Safdie Joseph Subject: Re: World Series MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" --------- OK more play byplay (it may not get much better than that) but it's October nineteenth First Game of the World Series (i.e., the poetry-globalism debate) the almost-full moon in Aires over my sun psychic integration laughable considering that Pluto in Hades is currently capturing (yes, like Persephone) that self-same moon shaking the foundations as it were of my domestic life this bullet to left field everything got real quiet my lover wants me to move in with her but my wife is a Giants fan THIS! is the most memorable moment in baseball history THIS! JT Snow! OH! a poetics of the moment Spezio another angel who resurrected his career Salmon stand up like a man what is this fucking squat business "26 Autry" give me a *small* break from this unending worship of the dead ________________________________________ Well, you know, it's something to do. I do envision this as a collective project, though, if anyone else wants to jump in . . . ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 13:26:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: national day of protest: Saturday, October 26 In-Reply-To: <000001c27836$6bf8a6a0$9a06c143@Dell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed "America speaks with one voice." -- George W. Bush Another reminder to all that this Saturday, Oct 26, is a National Day of Protest against the Bush administration's proposed war with Iraq. There will be a march on Washington, there is a rally in San Francisco. But as most of us cannot be in DC or SF, we are encouraging protests that range from sign-posting (on your office door, your car, in your yard or window) to sign-carrying, from letters to your local papers and representatives to the picketing of local tv stations and newspapers. Remember, the media have not been covering the protests satisfactorily: we should take our message to the media too. The following url indexes local action groups around the nation. Check it and see if anything's being organized for your area: http://www.legitgov.org/ Also, you can download and print flyers for the protest here: http://www.internationalanswer.org/ Gabe ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 14:51:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Rothenberg Subject: change of e-mail Comments: To: walterblue@bigbridge.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To those of you who are trying to reach me at poezine@sirius.com=20 and are getting your mail bounced back=20 you need to change your address for me to=20 poezine@sirius-mail.com or walterblue@bigbridge.org.=20 Sorry for the inconvenience. Michael Rothenberg walterblue@bigbridge.org Big Bridge www.bigbridge.org ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 12:55:08 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Plath In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > What could >the "same reason" be that excluded both May Swenson and Robert Lowell? >Certainly it can't be aesthetic. My god! Okay, maybe Robert Frost ought to have been in it! And Rod McKuen! -- George Bowering Per ardua ad astra. Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 15:57:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Rothenberg Subject: Re: Plath MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It seems to me the only reason it mattered who was in that book was because the book mattered. There have been tons of anthologies that have excluded me and I can't understand that at all! Michael R. ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Bowering" To: Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2002 3:55 PM Subject: Re: Plath > > What could > >the "same reason" be that excluded both May Swenson and Robert Lowell? > >Certainly it can't be aesthetic. > > My god! Okay, maybe Robert Frost ought to have been in it! And Rod McKuen! > > > > -- > George Bowering > Per ardua ad astra. > Fax 604-266-9000 > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 21:33:07 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lakey Teasdale Subject: Virginia. And to appearances Comments: To: "WRYTING-L : Writing and Theory across Disciplines" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Virginia. And to appearances contrary. To. although pre- cise. Victorian demeanour: velvet black leather, The coat. the long gown. The grace of=20 the lace in C major. Trumpet so voluntary. The cautious. Respectable. Not like some. Give up: steady jobs, exchange hot lunches. The foxy. the ladies/men. Come. Across as reserved. Were it not for her/his/their features. lean & hungry. Their clothes. Basic black & the pearly. The overwhelmingly. Shy in some. Most situations. enjoy a good ride, D Martin! Your Harley divine. The rev of your two-stroke. Stroke. A bit on the side. Affairs cover decades-at-least in-your-dreams-baby. Real. Who do you think you are?=20 Instinct? Primally screams: Ex libra. Passion in whispers. discards inhibitions. &/or murmurs. Like a pro. Pleasure in taxis, back corners galleries storerooms Grand Central Station. Virginia! Contemplate: One!=20 of numerous so-called excursions. Exotic experiences. Some tinged with. Unorthodox religious devotion rapturously proclaims spirit &/or demystification of le Creation. And a pot of basil. Her/he provoked inquisition added nuance. One who lives surreptitiously. In an open manner. Virginia and Don Giovanni Molto Arrapato. Both. Intrigued by numbers: How many lovers? How many men? How many women? How many times? How many positions? Miles to Babylon? miles to gallons? Silk purses? Sows' ears? Di quando in quando, ogni tanto.=20 Cabalistically drawn with composure her/his diary verifies &/or.=20 Nomenclature always defies.=20 Promiscuous ambient enterprise.=20 Anyone.=20 On scheduled trains.=20 Even to Monticello. On buses. Accidents.=20 Not exceptions. So difficult:=20 chronology scrupulously recycled. Disguised by.=20 Anonymous hordes. Reveal!=20 Good-old-sentimental Life!=20 Exhibitionism combined with!=20 Precision taps boundaries!=20 Runs gamut: of taste! reckless desire! Unmasks vivid! Corporeal reality recalls: strange situations! Virginia imprints: Crowds! Out! &/or=20 basic positions. The diarist's observation, awareness, description. The carpets of time. Virginia. O! How! Virginia &/or Don Giovanni has/have not. Rhyme(s)! for august highland, a gansteh k'nacker ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 13:41:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: do you know what a semicolon is? In-Reply-To: <003001c27877$f8f8ee20$f650fea9@LakeyTeasdale> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v546) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > do you know what a semicolon is? http://homepages.which.net/~panic.brixtonpoetry/writing.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 16:27:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: Mayer's insult poem In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20021020130609.0157a8f8@mail.ilstu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I have been trying for ages to find Bernadette Mayer's insult poem to Fred Jordan. Can someone please tell me in which book -- or journal or what -- this poem can be found? GAbe ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 16:18:49 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: "the bond of proportion is the spirit of friendship" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT "the bond of proportion is the spirit of friendship" That’s what a Post-It of mine says on a page of Plato’s Timaeus.... Olson’s 1962 reading at Goddard College worries over, and continually circles back to, in asides, the discomfort if not the outright inadequacy he feels about transcription, notation or recording of his voice, on its own terms, in relation to his poetry, and of his poetry. "I have this problem with scoring" (13) he says, which causes him at various times in the reading to repeat what he reads. He's a "captive poet" (5) of the event of reading. The problem is, he's not a performer; he's a composer -- "I'm Beethoven!" (13) (what an analogy: Beethoven went deaf and yet continued composing, undaunted...). The big issue with transcribing some NAP poets is how much "breath" does one acknowledge in print? At some point it would seem that for the transcriber the ideality of the sentence and of grammar generally intervene to make figures for you, out of a sometimes aurally abstract canvas. In the case of the transcribed excerpt that Ron Silliman cites, the way I hear one crucial line in particular seems to differ from how Kyle Schlesinger hears and transcribes it, which led me to write the following. Kyle hears "She does the typing most remarkably. [Coughing in audience]" which suggests Olson is unbearably patronizing and seems to clinch the issue of women in NAP. I hear the ungrammatical "She does the typing, most remarkable." That changes the tone somewhat -- granted, only ever so slightly alters the ultimate patronizing conclusion. This still remains a clinching passage. But, this difference of two letters in one word does invite a subtle reading, which for me opens the libidinal flow of this passage to quite a lot of information about Olson's poetics. For then Olson pauses, and it's almost a theatrical pause, which invites not just [coughing] but what I'd call [nervous laughter] from the audience to be heard as just that, as expressing nervousness (which I take to be about how Olson just put-down Di Prima). Once Olson has elicited that response from his audience, he responds in turn with a quasi-drunken slur of protest ("don't think I'm putting her down, wow" etc). There's a lot of staging going on here. But Olson is not completely in control of the verbal stagecraft. "Remarkable" (not "remarkably") links back to how he just described Floating Bear -- as this "remarkable" magazine. So there *is* a link to Di Prima as co-editor as well, but this link is suppressed to a submerged level of repetition -- of a word, the adjective "remarkable." Then, a revealing syntactic parallelism occurs by defining Jones as "the greatest editor since Robert Creeley," while Di Prima is a personal experience, "the greatest publishing I [or "I've"] ever had," which seems to unconsciously mimic the speech patterning of a generic, sexualized phrase ('the greatest lay I ever had'? etc). Di Prima becomes one with the matter of the magazine itself. There is a tension in the passage Ron cites between "parts of speech," its subject (the subject of "A Book -- A Grammar"), and Di Prima's typesetting of Olson's text for Floating Bear that attempts (but fails, according to Olson) to "imitate" Olson's parts of speech in their variety of forms (whether as poetry, or as in this case, diagram of discourse, etc). Olson begins his 1962 reading with a distinction between kinds of reading, one he dismisses as "performance," that the tape recorder exacerbates, and another which he does not quite identify before moving to other subjects. (However the subject of performance recurs at various points in the reading, in various ways.) The distinction would seem to be or become Robert Duncan's, actually, who clearly delineates a historical difference between poetry as "performance" and as "office" the next year (see Duncan’s audio stream of his Vancouver 1963 lecture at http://slought.net/toc/archives/display.php?id=1094). The role of poet as one of holding, in a civic metaphor (secular, for Olson), an "office," figures into the next poem that Olson reads, too, "In the Face of a Chinese View of the City." The office of poet is moral, above business and "liberal" social life, and male gendered. Di Prima is identified with the matter of type, and with the problem of transcribing Olson's voice and poetry. The cliché Olson leans on here is gendering the printed word as female. I think you could trace this back to how "receptacle" is used in like manner by Plato in The Timaeus (see John Sallis's recent book on this dialogue and issue) -- the point and concept that Luce Irigaray raises in her critique of this Western conceptual legacy as it constitutes the "spirit of friendship" (in this case, among poets). Louis ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 15:52:06 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nick LoLordo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mainead-- I was being flip--but in the service of suggesting two-teams rhetoric is simplistic AND real, gets used all the time--hence my invocation of Keith Waldrop (which Rachel Loden has since explicated far better than I could)-- George--surely your eg of Frost and McKuen is a case in point--I mean, do we imagine the same folks who nodded sagely as the Laureate intoned those (in) famous lines about the land "vaguely realizing westward" slipping into a hot tub a few short years later and groggily sharing lines from _Listen to the Warm? [Hmmmm......all right, I still think that's a rhetorical question] The anthology of the unanthologizable sounds fabulous! Do you know Jed Rasula's book on _The American Poetry Wax Museum_--lots of great literary- historical detail from the anthology wars--and he's in part interested in getting away from binaries, in the ex-centric: writes extensively on for example Louise Bogan.... Vincent Nicholas LoLordo Assistant Professor Department of English University of Nevada-Las Vegas Las Vegas, NV 89154 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 18:10:02 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: Re: "the bond of proportion is the spirit of friendship" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Or, a little more accurately perhaps: I hear "She does the typing ... most remarkable. [nervous laughter]" Nervous laughter because the audience remains unsure of how to hear the last two words. Does "most remarkable" refer to the fact that Di Prima can type (sexist put-down, moreover, of the very work women stereotypically were enabled to do), or does it reiterate Olson's high opinion of the magazine (indirectly complementing Di Prima for her co-editing role with the "remarkable" Jones)? It's staged. It's both. The one, Olson denies (it's a feint). The other, he elaborates further. Di Prima is a perfectionist typesetter. It’s not her fault that he is conflicted over "scoring." Yeek! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 13:52:34 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Replies: Alan Sondheim and Alan Loney amd Richard Taylor and Poetics and Fear and Hope. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit my response to Allan's poems came from my own conscience as i hate hurting people and got a feeling of deep disturbance inside allan's poem(s) which interestingly ties up with a book i'm reading by another Alan, Alan Loney -who is not Jewish and is not writing about the holocaust or anything - in fact his lastest prose-poetry book which is called "The Falling" (title as it happens of a book by William Golding who also wrote Pincher Martin in which the whole book concerns itself with the moment or process of death and so on: so there is a connection for PhD students of the future...)(but at this point I can say that Allan's book is the work of an extraordinarily highly talented worker: it is as they say a real "tour de force", fantastic, one of the best works of lit I have seen ...it reminds me somewhaht of the power of Faulkner in "The Sound and the Fury" or "As I Lay Dying"...) works on many levels including that of his own personal experience or memories of the death of a shool boy friend of his with Robert Hale who died in the Tangiwai (tears-river) river disastor in 1953 (in New Zealand (Aotearoa) of course) and which was caused by the force of a lahar (or a kind of mud-snow slide) from Mount Ruapehu and which acted like a huge buldozer and wiped out a bridge as a train was crossing (not that there is any clear connection to this event or the holocaust or isreael or the other alan) ....but it works or operates both if you like at the linguistic and the poetic-emotive and the level of contemplation-intellection (which in fact is also the level of many of the best of, or of, those kind of language poems (such as some of Suasan Howe's say or even ...there are hundreds of the poets ...but moving back in time maybe similar experiential thing is in John Berryman's sonnets, or more recently John Weiners, or the bitterness of Ed Dorn, or the "inner" prose-poetry-esssay-meditations-play of Nick Piombino...there are so many)) or indeed of Alan's Sondheim's (where the very massiveness of his project I have felt indicates a torment (in the best sense for me) ) (and has an effect in its own right- if right is the right word...some weak puns there..) now torment probably has roots to (it has roots to a "missile engine" and also to torquere= to twist..).......so the generative force, creative, twists us and turns us somewhat into missile throwers, or missile generators of missives (emails) and I know that a lot of my own work was "generated" by the anguish of a relationship that disintegrated and the near tragedy involving my own son who was battened here by the police and then lost an eye but there was "other shit going down" as they say)(in its own way it was tragic to the degree that things that us personally very strongly affective to numero uno are tragedies) and maybe the "tragedy" of my own misfunction in certain social areas and the "tragedy" of my laziness etc (this is not to say that my life in this country, in the war sense a very peaceful country and free of pogroms and so on, has not been marvellous and it is beautiful place by and large and i have had a lot of opportunities and happiness here: have been fortunate...) ..but these emotive "gernerators" interract with the "technical language" and so on which act like conductors or structures: as the poem-project has to be much more than a political harrangue or "rave" or in sub specie aeternitatis it becomes a weak, insignificant thing, a trifle, but there are many ways to skin the poetic cat. I dont think any of us should let these (ultimately external events) drive us apart: eg I might think (as a random example to tke for argument's sake as they say)that North Korea is ok while someone else lies awake all night worrying about it - but that issue neither of us is directly responsible for and it shouldnt be a cause of total personal dislike or division: but ultimately, in all probably, no terrible holocausts will happen anymore: we are probably at this moment in history, ironically it seems, at a higher level of humanity and peacefulness than has been for a long time (not at we should relax our "eternal vigilance") (if we go back and look even at London in the 1870s the people on the "lower" social stratas lived in what some writers compared to an inferno) and despite the various wars such asVietnam on the casualties overall are less than that of WW1 and WW2 and we have the potential to organise now through the United nations a much better world where eg India and the United States and NZ and all other countries can eventually enjoy quite high standards of living in some kind of unified world (one day): note I didnt say or mention any Utopian vision (per se) at this stage...I cannot myself hate anyone for very long (of course I'm not partial to certain "monstrous" people we all read about) but by and large despite everything, people are mainly decent still......Muslim or Christian or other "fanatacisms" or Capitalism or distorted and enforced Communism or other "isms" etc may be "evils" but this doesnt mean we all fall on each other with knives or collapse in a panic of fear and mistrust, or I dont talk to Allan or Harry Nudel or Nick because we both said silly things, or I went "over the top": the answer I think is for us all (myself included) to learn tolerance and methods of dialogue (which is one of he good signals or concepts that Language Poetry is sending or attempts to send out)...and I am not so wonderful a person in these matters I have my irrational moments and my fears and confusions: I am poet, or would like to think I am, not a politician and find "politics": can trap one into a kind of rhetorical (almost a hypnotic state) (one thinks of Yeat's poems centred upon or backgrounded by the Irish conflicts and the First World War) and a spiral of attack and counter attack that does no one any good: some people are very for good at dialogue and at being considerate of others this, my not being tooo good at such, is my own difficulty: it is worth me noting this to remind myself (not "beat up" on myself, as I intend to act upon it) and that others also are similar: at base we all bleed as in the Merchant of Venice and "(mercy) droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven" and I feel that Baraka is motivated by his sense of the injustices of the world 9apparently he was much affected by the killing of Malcolm X) and Alan and others feel them but deal with them in different ways (and also of course injustice and "tragedy" etc surely are hopefully not the only motivators of poets or God help us...)...these are my own unmediated thoughts (well, as unmediated or as "innocent " as my devious "inner self" and the language will allow).... Alan asked me to pass this on: I think it is imprtant that if we wish to communicate anything at all we should be allowed to and should not feel that it it is trivial or naive: granted I myself have some things I dont want to "know about": but here is Alan: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Sondheim" To: "richard.tylr" Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 9:54 AM Subject: Re: response to re: re repsonse to re response and What are we? What can we do? Can we we can. > > > Richard - I wrote the following in response to you (and the general > climate). I'm also over the posting limit today. Perhaps you could post it > with a reply? > > - Alan > > > From sondheim@panix.com Sun Oct 20 16:53:44 2002 > Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 16:53:30 -0400 (EDT) > From: Alan Sondheim > To: UB Poetics discussion group > Subject: Re: response to re: re repsonse to re response and What are we? > What can we do? Can we we can. > > > > First, I'm not sure this will get through - if not, I'll resend it later. > > Censoring Baraka or removing him from Poet Laureate would be unbelievably > terrible. That doesn't mean the statements should or shouldn't be opposed > - that's for critique and response. And at least for me, critique is also > self-critique, gnawing my insides-out, listening. Same almost for me: or similar... > > When I was younger, I was three times in Israel; I knew both Arabs and > Israelis and became increasingly horrified by Isreali policy, which always > from the beginning seemed like a dead and violent end. I understood and > still do what a constant state of war, emerging out of a half-century-old > holocaust, can do, but I expected more. Growing up in Wilkes-Barre and > Kingston, Penna., Judaism was always pacific, in spite of the Torah at > times. I couldn't understand, and still can't, guns, hunting, and the rest > of it. I related to what I read of the shtetl, with its emphasis on > socialism and learning. > > Israel was different of course. > > In Israel I both sided with what I understood about Arab liberation, and > the Jews' desire to exist as self-governing. Europe etc. didn't take the > latter in when the refugees fled Germany; Israel did. Other than sinking > at sea, it seemed the only place to go. I can understand the force of this it was something I have been thinking about a lot. I had the book about the ship that was doomed and I think the Jews had to return to Europe...in truth "i dont know" as I have t travelled much ( altho Kiwis are oneof the biggest travellers per capita, irrelevant aside(!)) > > Almost every country has had its pogroms; now they're firing up again. I > think a lot of Jews live in probably irrational fear; I know that I do. > > It must be absolutely clear that Israel and Jews are not equivalent; I'm > suspicious of anyone mixing the two. I am hardly pro-Israel; either are > the other Jews I know. I separate the right wing Zionists from those Jews and Arabs who want to set up a secular state in Palestine: nor do I support those Arabs who are anti-semitic. > > All of this is a knot, an aporia. I have absolutely no answer to the mid- > east; I tend not to believe the news from the region because, having been > there, I saw how things were falsified from every side. I think the only > solution, to be honest, is continuous warfare until all parties are > exhausted or so violated that peace or total mutual annihilation are the > only options. Given this, I still can understand the suicide bombers far > better than the Israeli government - which at least has superstructural > options that remain moribund. The hatred, everywhere, is unbelievable. > I can understand the aporia. > But inside, all this plays out within emotions I can't handle, information > I can't digest, etc. It tears me (like a lot of others, both Jews and > non-Jews, Arabs and non-Arabs) apart. It is terrible stuff: and even people relatively "uninvolved" such as myself feel the awfulness of it apart from the sophistry and complexity and so on of the politics. > > Baraka hit a nerve because it showed just how far suspicion travels today > - i.e. Israel is apparently capable of any atrocity, any holocaust, > itself. For me, this couples too much with his earlier anti-semitism, and > the anti-semitism (anti-Judaism) which flourishes even in my area of > Brooklyn. It's heart-rending. I can accept that his sense of outrage may have lead him into excessive hyperbole: this is the danger of political rhetoric that Nick is (rightly) wary of...and I've been 'trapped' into (or trapped myself into) it at various times..... > > As far as Bush and his cronies are concerned, I believe they hate the lot > of us, Jews, Arabs, Blacks, etc. > They may or may not. The trouble is: we just cant know what people are thinking. If Bush is right the situation is as terrible as if Bush etal are alies in some made world-wide conspiracy to generate a "war for oil" (why have a war for oil?). But there a lot of good people around Alan, more than bad, who dont irrationally hate other people of any colour or race: there are the people we need totalk to and gather around us so to speak (Yeats speaks of the deliberate isolation of the poet and I can understand that too)....I think you should talk to Baraka (by letter or phone or email) your feelings on these matters... > Apologies for the naivete here - Dont: keep working (as if I could influence you!)...I wish I had ever visited Israel maybe my views would be more 'rational' or more complex: and that is also why i was tring to find if my grandfather was Jewish only to see if that would influence my thinking (my Uncle said he was of Jewish descent...my sister for some reason wanted him to be of Scotch descent!!!...but my brother eg looks very much like a "middle eastern" or semitic type...so the question of origions.....naivete I like just as i (really) like eg "gnomic" stuff by eg barrett watten etc as well: I like the mix so to speak........ > > - Alan > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 17:58:55 -0700 Reply-To: antrobin@clipper.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anthony Robinson Subject: two short poems In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii For K Down Under Did not slip toward your largess, Brown Hair. Something baking smells good, And the edge! Forsaken, some say, The pair of tattered sneakers begs The question. If you thought the girl Container could handle, would you Pull the lever? Fancy me, oh thou. Can’t look away—belief is negotiable Through (drip drip) sophistry (nitpick), Someone set the fazer on stun. My my, Each lily, when plucked from the mouth Of the tidepool trips toward: ocean, sandy. The map has many deceptive lines. Our past tense is finally making sense. +++++++ Missing I’m feeling very poetic today! I’m wearing my loafers and chambray shirt. The usual group has convened and Bryan still looks like Ron Padgett. They’re both, you know, from Oklahoma. John looks like a kindly gnome when he laughs. Something is missing, but we ignore it. Or they do. You have sand in your hair; some man’s fingers on your wrist. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 01:07:46 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jason christie Subject: you are far too kind. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed ***My appologies if you have received this twice.*** ___________________________________ The next YARD... October. While it is true that our fantastic line-up of readers could warm the heart of any snow beast north of Alaska and probably our little circle of listners as well, and because these days end around six o'clock in the evening and we can never really say whether it will snow or be a balmy eleven degrees celsius, our little YARD reading series will have to move in doors. And what better place to be than in the warmth and comfort of the beloved Auburn Saloon? This month we are offered a veritable feast of sensations and sounds that will leave us wondering what sorts of situations lurk around each dark corner as LOUIS CABRI gathers the invisible forces that power our social machine to give them sonorous substance before our very ears. And as the moon slips more and more out of the earth's shadow what better way to enjoy the foggy nights and crystal clear animal sounds of Calgary than with a trip through the abattoirs of the imagination with ANDRE RODRIGUES? We can all be certain that the beauty of listening to LARISSA LAI read is the realization that though we are awake and attentive we are in fact enjoying a fascinatingly somatic, dreamlike experience all the more poignant for its hypnotic effect. An autumnal gift. There are black cats and bats, witches and goblins, and all manner of dark arts abounding as we approach the 31st but with JILL HARTMAN on our side the night should transpire with her words forming a protective barrier around the Auburn and environs that also has an spf rating of 45. After the 26th though we're on our own. A short open mic will follow the featured readers. The rules are simple and based on the lexiconjury rules: one poem and one cover poem of your choosing. Please note, you MUST have a cover poem in order to read at the open mic. I'd like to wish the lexiconjury reading series continued success on the occasion of its one year anniversary and offer many thank yous for consistently being an exceptional event. Yay lex! The details: YARD 7:30 October 26th, 2002 at the Auburn Saloon 712 First Street SE just north of Stephen's Ave Hope to see you there! Or if not there then I hope to see you soon! Jason Christie jasonchristie615@hotmail.com 237-8519 _________________________________________________________________ Unlimited Internet access -- and 2 months free! Try MSN. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/2monthsfree.asp ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 21:32:25 -0400 Reply-To: men2@columbia.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Millie Niss Subject: prose poem thingy: joan gets binned Comments: To: Martha L Deed , webartery@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Case Summary: Ms. Joan C Fitzgerald presented at our emergency service on 10/23 for treatment of an infected ingrown toenail. The toe was infected up to the second joint and debriding and treatment with a local antibiotic was performed, and oral treatment with penicillin was initiated. Patient was advised not to use toxic nail polish on her toes and not to chew on them. Patient was then admitted to Skinner-4 (psych) on a 2-PC involuntary commitment order for inpatient observation and possible treatment, based on her behavior in the registration department at the ER. A transcript follows: “Name” “Fitzgerald. Joan C. Why do you care?” “We need a name to keep track of each of our patients so that we can give them individualized service. Plus we need someone to bill.” “Well you can’t bill me. My toe is infected. I am not infected. Why should I pay when it is my toe that is infected?” “This is just registration. You must wait to discuss your medical problems with the doctor.” “Address?” “It depends on who I crash with.” “Well where should we send the statement?” “I told you I am not responsible for my toe. Send it a statement: Big Toe, Left foot, Left Leg Joan Fitzgerald. That’s its address.” “Ok, we’ll move on. Next of kin?” “My children won’t have anything to do with me.” “Well whom may we contact in case of an emergency?” “Oh! That’s easy. My lover.” “And what is her name?” “His: Osama” ”Last name?” “Laden” “Middle initial?” “B.” “And his address?” “No fixed address, Haven’t you been watching the news?” “Well how do you find him?” “I leave out an offering of Vodka. He tries to be a good, strict Muslim, but he got addicted to Vodka during the Soviet Occupation. Mind you it has to be Russian Vodka,. And nothing cheap. And there has to be at least 5 bottles so he can spend a whole evening at it. He has an amazing tolerance for alcohol, only he gets these strange political ideas when he’s drunk. Sober, he’s peace itself.. But he isn’t often sober. And he won’t stay with me once the drink runs out, he has to go get more.” “but how does he come?” “by spiritual Aeroflot charters.” “spiritual?” “well he can’t exactly get on a normal flight and show his passport, can he? Plus, being somewhere between dead or alive like Schrodinger’s cat, he has to use a non corporeal means of transportation,” “Ms. Fitzgerald. Will you wait here while I go get the doctor so you can tell her what you just told me?” “NO! I WANNA GO HOME! I DON”T CARE IF MY TOE HAS TO BE AMPUTATED I DON’T CARE IF MY FOOT HAS TO BE AMPUTATED. I AM GOING HOME” At this point hospital security guards surrounded Ms. Fitzgerald and restrained her to a stretcher using four-point leather restraints, She started screaming and singing Home on the Range as a protest song implying that she wants to go home. Patients’s severe agitation was treated with 10 mg Haldol IM, administered with great difficultly since she was able to write away from the needle despite the restraints. After tightening the restraints, the injects was successfully administered and patient became calmer and more composed and her behavior improved. Haldol IM prn was continued during he 5 week inpatient stay in Skinner-4, where she was well enough to have her restraints removed after 3 1/2 weeks although she spent the remaining time in the quiet room. Patient left the hospital calm and collected and had no outbursts, She did not mention Osama bin Laden for the last week. She will continue to receive Haldol IM an outpatient basis, perhaps converted to long acting Haldol decanoate if the Haldol remains well-tolerated. Conclusion: successful hospitalization. Patient much improved. Schizophrenic symptoms in remission. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 20:58:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: a text thot lost now recovered In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v543) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (these are texts from the moo environment I built at LinguaMoo called Cybele's Multiverse Wilderness, which came to no longer exist when they upgraded the encore software which runs the moo, more than a year ago. luckily I just uncovered a paper copy in my notes.) ~ compost - transmute - death ~ All matter accumulates momentus toward its decomposition. Over the lapse of time, seven probabilities of involution - data broken down to an indivisible binary. Only later the humic layer recycles any material's reconfiguration. "Does binary information experience time?" "But do neurons? Do they experience their own decay?" ~ selfsame - sterile ~ Mutually transgressive specie are evolving beyond recognized patterns of fruition. Data penetrating replication itself suppose that parallel dataspheres mirror parthnogenetic causality. ~ terminal - sever ~ Active termination enables energy for the production of new growth. Where endings coincide with endings, rapid disparities elongate similarly unpredictable patterns. Asynchronous termination, much like a forest, remains, stratified, sustained. ~ migration - dispersal ~ Movement as described by the flow of see-bytes across environments. Genetic survival is enhanced as new self-similar guilds colonize the medium. Singularity is randomly responsible for unfolding designs. ~ moisture - water ~ We are water. In the larger metacycle of natural process moisture stabilizes the advance of evolutionary protocol. In digitalogical transference, fluidity assures predictable permutations & an abundance of chaotic mutators. ~ pestilence - unhealthy ~ The flora is only as healthy as that which it resists. Entities formerly known as Disease Plague Blight & Infestation resemble the most dreaded constructs of our worst fears. ~ hybrid - cross - exhale ~ Until a plant exhales it cannot replenish the life-force of another, cannot mark new territory or undertake parenting new genetics. Internet remains a convoluted model of the planet's potential neural networks endlessly rewiring its synapses. ~ pollination - fertility - transference ~ A plant wound around itself cannot be completed with the interchange of its opposite force. ~ center - genome - parent ~ The grand resolution of all lineage comes to a binary pinhole, by necessity the creatrix of info-similar offspring. Assuming the existence of flora is relevant in the hypersphere, these first inklings of phyto experimentation will imprint everything to follow. mIEKAL aND memexikon@mwt.net | ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 00:29:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Spiral Bridge Subject: The Naked Readings 10/27 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Spiral Bridge Writers Guild invites You to celebrate HALLOWEEN Sunday, October 27, 2002 6:00pm till Midnight @ Bloomfield Ave Cafe & Stage 347 Bloomfield Ave.=20 Montclair, NJ http://www.bloomfieldavecafe.com =20 With The Naked Readings Poetry Series' HALLOWEEN COSTUME PARTY OPEN MIC POETRY with Live Music by=20 SMOOVE plus Jah Culture Sound System,=20 spinning the best of=20 roots, rock and reggae FREE! but might we suggest a modest donation? =20 Anyone who=20 SHOWS UP IN COSTUME will win Free Admission=20 to the=20 BLUE NOTE JAZZ CLUB! =20 http://www.spiralbridge.org A non profit contributing to the Montclair community for the past = year through readings and writing workshops, Spiral Bridge has remained = dedicated to providing the surrounding communities with a forum for = artistic expression. At the September Naked Reading at the same venue, = New Jersey Poet Laureate Amiri Baraka took to the Spiral Bridge stage to = defend his position concerning the controversy over his poem "Somebody = Blew Up America."=20 Spiral Bridge is honored to have shared its stage with poetry = luminaries such as Baraka and will continue to provide an open forum for = communication within the poetry community.=20 http://www.spiralbridge.org Spiral Bridge Writers Guild is an independent, nonprofit poetry organization based in Northern New Jersey. We are dedicated to=20 encouraging the exploration of the arts in our society by providing=20 open poetry readings, writing workshops, educational programs,=20 community outreach and multimedia publications.=20 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 01:43:01 -0400 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: locus, vector, cash cow...yada yada yada... it is difficult/ to get the news from poems/ yet men lie miserably every day......drn... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 01:56:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: mouth.mov MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII mouth.mov the star-field, more numerous than usual, principally between the mouthing mouth and doubled orality of the mouth-breast, breast-breast, the stars as skin-emanations, emanation-skins, circulations and ellipsoidal, calling or beckonings, the scanning camera which is our eyes outside of the planes, beyond the reaches of mouths and breasts, unknown to the doubling subjects within the spaces and times of the imagery, the slow swaying of the world as if absorption of each and every thing, the liquidity and pastels of the breathing of the planes, organisms, continuous neoteny of our universal homelands -:primarily the first or secondarily, against the background, mouth opening and closing, it's there, spaceless, conditioning the space, the orality of the mouth as if the pill of the desiccated sphere or wounded plane were already an absorption, but in reality the plane and sphere occlusions, the glittering of the teeth, muteness and lustre of the lips, tongue held back, restrained, in the arched space, the coming- forward and retreating occlusions heretofore of the mouth, present and impresent, an imbalance -:the breast is duplicated, the scan across the manipulated breast on a planar tilt, the interruptions by a sphere already interrupted by breast-mapping and distortion traveling a secondary scan across the first, the tilt of the first, the camera moving across the first, encountering the second, the manipulated breast of the secondary or primary scan conditioned by an interrupted flow of swollen matrix, the oral longing:none:none DOES the breast is duplicated, the scan across the manipulated breast on a planar tilt, the interruptions by a sphere already interrupted by breast- mapping and distortion traveling a secondary scan across the first, the tilt of the first, the camera moving across the first, encountering the second, the manipulated breast of the secondary or primary scan condi- tioned by an interrupted flow of swollen matrix, the oral longing REPLACE YOUR star-field, more numerous than usual, principally between the mouthing mouth and doubled orality of the mouth-breast, breast-breast, the stars as skin-emanations, emanation-skins, circulations and ellipsoidal, calling or beckonings, the scanning camera which is our eyes outside of the planes, beyond the reaches of mouths and breasts, unknown to the doubling subjects within the spaces and times of the imagery, the slow swaying of the world as if absorption of each and every thing, the liquid- ity and pastels of the breathing of the planes, organisms, continuous neoteny of our universal homelands - === ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 00:28:42 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kristin Palm Subject: national day of protest: Saturday, October 26 Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Please also remember that the A.N.S.W.E.R. coalition is really the Internation Action Center, which supports such "peacemakers" as Slobadan Milosevic. I'm not, I repeat not, saying don't go to the demos. It is unlikely the mainstream media will make this connection, and god knows Georgie W. won't. They'll just be counting numbers. I can say that I, for one, remain conflicted as to whether or not I will attend, however . . . kp Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 13:26:56 -0500 From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: national day of protest: Saturday, October 26 "America speaks with one voice." -- George W. Bush Another reminder to all that this Saturday, Oct 26, is a National Day of Protest against the Bush administration's proposed war with Iraq. There will be a march on Washington, there is a rally in San Francisco. But as most of us cannot be in DC or SF, we are encouraging protests that range from sign-posting (on your office door, your car, in your yard or window) to sign-carrying, from letters to your local papers and representatives to the picketing of local tv stations and newspapers. Remember, the media have not been covering the protests satisfactorily: we should take our message to the media too. The following url indexes local action groups around the nation. Check it and see if anything's being organized for your area: http://www.legitgov.org/ Also, you can download and print flyers for the protest here: http://www.internationalanswer.org/ Gabe ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 17:47:11 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Pam=20Brown?= Subject: Re: "the bond of proportion is the spirit of friendship" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "well, the best thing to do with a mimeograph is to drop it/ from a five story window on the head of a cop" Diane Di Prima, "Goodbye Nkrumah" Pam Brown --- Louis Cabri wrote: > Or, a little more accurately perhaps: > > I hear "She does the typing ... most remarkable. > [nervous laughter]" Nervous > laughter because the audience remains unsure of how > to hear the last two > words. Does "most remarkable" refer to the fact that > Di Prima can type > (sexist put-down, moreover, of the very work women > stereotypically were > enabled to do), or does it reiterate Olson's high > opinion of the magazine > (indirectly complementing Di Prima for her > co-editing role with the > "remarkable" Jones)? It's staged. It's both. The > one, Olson denies (it's a > feint). The other, he elaborates further. Di Prima > is a perfectionist > typesetter. It’s not her fault that he is conflicted > over "scoring." > > Yeek! ===== Web site/Pam Brown - http://www.geocities.com/p.brown/ http://careers.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Careers - 1,000's of jobs waiting online for you! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 00:54:22 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: URBAN TEXT KULT TERRY ENGLEBERG P C X #004 Comments: To: 7-11@mail.ljudmila.org, ImitationPoetics@listserv.unc.edu, o-o@konf.lt, webartery@yahoogroups.com, syndicate@anart.no, _arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au, owner-realpoetik@scn.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit TERRY ENGLEBERG P C X #004 excerpt www.urbantextkult.com __,,`qqqq&2564565654--4565654652&6nz|{|{|{|{zl66lz{| {|{|{|zn6Hz%%zH>iy{|{|{}|{|xf 2 %zf!!fz%hWWhh&&h-3465465652''2565645643-2fx|{|}{|{|{yi>>iy{|{|{}|{|xf2 %zf!! fz%hWWhLKKL&2564565650''056565 4652&#Yu{|{|{|{sW$$Ws{|{|{|{uY #Hf!! fH>iy{|{|{|z{zoC%z f!! fz%hWWh&&&&-3465465650''0565645643-Coz{z|{|{|{yi>>iy{|{|{|z{zoC%z f!! fz%hWWhhKKh&2564565650''056565 4652&2fx|{|}{|{|{sW$$Ws{|{|{}| {|xf2Hf!! fH>iy{|{|{|{uY#%zf! ! fz%hWWhL&&L-34654565650''05656545643-#Yu{|{|{|{yi>>iy{|{|{|{uY#%zf! ! fz%hWWh&m""m&%05645465650''056 56454650%Coz{z|{|{|{u^22^u{|{| {|z{zoCHf! ! fH>ix|{|{|{|{tY#%z f! !fz%hWWhL&&L-34654565650''05656545643-#Yt{|{|{|{|xi>>ix|{|{|{|{tY#%z f! ! fz%hWWh&m""m&%056454565650''05 6565454650%@jx{z|}{|{|{u^22^u{ |{|{}|z{xj @Hf!! fH >ix|{|{|{}|z{xj@!fd!!df! 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Wl< Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: URBAN TEXT KULT MADDY PORTER P I C #004 Comments: To: 7-11@mail.ljudmila.org, ImitationPoetics@listserv.unc.edu, o-o@konf.lt, webartery@yahoogroups.com, syndicate@anart.no, _arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au, owner-realpoetik@scn.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MADDY PORTER P I C #004 excerpt www.urbantextkult.com \`~P`AA}Q` AA~W`|W`|Z`zZ`zQ` AA yR` AAyZ`xY`xS` AwQ`AwX`wY`vW` uV` uQ`A AuS` AtT` sU`sQ` sU` rT` qU`qL` qT`pV` oR`oN` oT` nQ` mV`mQ` mR`lT` kU`kN`! kS`" jU` "iM` "iR`% hY`&hS`&hQ` & hR`) hL`* hW`*fW`*fP` -AeK` . eU`.eZ`.dN`2dO` 2 dM` 2dQ`2dS`2bX`2bO` 5AbO` 6 bS`6bP`6bP`:`R`:`P`:`P`: `S`:`M`:`O`>^U`>^O`>^P`> ^R`>^L`>^Q`B\R`B\R`B\P`B \T`B\Q`B[J`F[I`F\K`F[R`FZK`GZJ `FZJ`IAYK`AIZJ`JZH`JYM`JXb`3JX m` {K X`AAiJ X`2eMX`A6A\NW` WNW`AAMNX`A FNV`AA@NV`AA YR`=AAYQ`: A VQ`8 AA WQ`6 A RR`8 TR`0AAALR`1AAKR`, AA JR`-KR`( A FR`) GR`$ A BR`% CR` AA >P`! 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E`d+G+`l`d+GG+``AAf.GG.`Af.--. `AAi.GG.` i.--.`l.-GG-.` l.GG.`n+7GG7+``n77``r.9GG9. +`B`r.9G9.B``AAy.73797999797. +` y.379797.q`AAqB`y`Aq`E|`p`|` p`x`q`ls`p`l`Aq`p` r`n`AArE`e`Ar`Bm`sEB``B`j`sB`a `BS`AAP` Z`V`W`AT` AAY` R`AX`~\`~P`AA}Q` AA~W`|W`|Z`zZ`zQ` AA yR` AAyZ`xY`xS` AwQ`AwX`wY`vW` uV` uQ`A AuS` AtT` sU`sQ` sU` rT` qU`qL` qT`pV` oR`oN` oT` nQ` mV`mQ` mR`lT` kU`kN`! kS`" jU` "iM` "iR`% hY`&hS`&hQ` & hR`) hL`* hW`*fW`*fP` -AeK` . eU`.eZ`.dN`2dO` 2 dM` 2dQ`2dS`2bX`2bO` 5AbO` 6 bS`6bP`6bP`:`R`:`P`:`P`: `S`:`M`:`O`>^U`>^O`>^P`> ^R`>^L`>^Q`B\R`B\R`B\P`B \T`B\Q`B[J`F[I`F\K`F[R`FZK`GZJ `FZJ`IAYK`AIZJ`JZH`JYM`JXb`3JX m` {K X`AAiJ X`2eMX`A6A\NW` WNW`AAMNX`A FNV`AA@NV`AA YR`=AAYQ`: A VQ`8 AA WQ`6 A RR`8 TR`0AAALR`1AAKR`, AA JR`-KR`( A FR`) GR`$ A BR`% CR` AA >P`! A?Q` &A :P` A 'AA;P` , 6P` ,A7O` A2 2O` 2A3O` 8 .P` A 9/P` < *P` A =A+P` A@A*P` @A)P` A F A &P` A G $P` A J "P` A K A#P` N P`A O AP` A R A P` A S P` A V P` A W AP` Z P`A [ AP` A ^ A P` A _ O` b! O`A c! AO` A f% AA O`A f% O`Aj)A O`j)O` l, A P`AA m, P`A p0 AAP` p0 P` AAt4A P` t4 P` v6 P`A w6 P`A z: A P` z: P` AA~> AP` ~> P`A @ AP` @ P`AC P`DP` AA D A AP` D P`AHAP`HP`A AI AP` I O`AMP` M P` P A P` AP P` A T AQ` T P`VQ`VR` X AR` AX R` \R` [ R`A]R` \ R` A^ A R` ^ R` Aa AR`aQ` Ac AR` c R` f R`fR`AhS` hR` Ah AT` h T` l T` lT` n S` m S` o AS` oT` r T` rT` s T` rT` At V` t V` Av AV` v U` zV` y V`z V`zV` | V` | V` ~ W` } AX` A AX` X` X` X` X` Y` AY` AZ`AY` Z`AA Z` A Z`AZ` Z`[`\` A A\` \` \` \` \` \` ^`^`^` ^`AA ^` A ^` AAA `` ``~``~ ``| ``|``zb`zb`z A AA Ab`z b`xAA b`@ A b`hAhjkjkjknknknkjkjkjhBh9A~d` BhjijknknknkjihB@.~ d`jijkjnkooknjkjihBh&A|d`jknko onkjhA@"|d`oknjhBh yd`onkjhB@ A Azd`okiABA A x e`oknhiBh x f`oknhiBhAtf`okihB@tf`onjhB AA sh`ojBh At Ah` onjh p h`ojAhph` AAA n i` A nh` A Aki`> Alj` A jj`j Aj`oknjkjkjknknknkjkjknkoA A fk`onkjknknknkjkjnkoA fl`onkjhiBAhAhjknkonohi@AAe l`onkjihBhBhjijkjnko noih@ Afl`?hAhjnkonoi bm`?Bhjkno onih@bn`LhAihknnoi@AA A` n`LBhiknonih@ `n`ThAihknonoi@ ^o`TBhikoonih@ ^p`\hAjonih@A\p`\hBjoni@\ Ap`b Anohi@ A Yq`bAoni@ AZr``nBh X r``nhBAX r`^ij@ AUs`^j@ Tt`^ jionnh TAt`^AjonhB A Tt`\@inoji@ Pu`\ihoj@Pv`\ @ino nh Mv`\ A ihonhB ANv`ZA@inoji@ L w`Ziho j@ ALx`XA @inonhHx`XihonhBHy`X @inohi A HAy`X Aihoh A Hz`V@ihoj@Dz`Vioj@Dz`V @jnh B|`V @jinhB B|`T"hAnh A@A}`T"hBonhA @ }`T &@jhi >~`T &@jii >`R +hAni :`R A,hBoni A:`R .@ji A : `R /@jii :A`P 4hAni 6`P 4hBoni 6`P 6@kj knBA 4A`P 7@kjnkBAA --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.404 / Virus Database: 228 - Release Date: 10/15/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 06:48:35 -0400 Reply-To: ron.silliman@gte.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Subject: Recently on the blog MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jena Osman on Chain Performance poetry & the problems of historical memory Performance poetry on the page Short Fuse: The Global Anthology of New Fusion Poetry The problem of succession for bookstores & publishers Dialects in American English Masters of vocabulary: Forrest Gander & H.D. http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 04:40:13 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: SNIPE Comments: cc: "arc.hive" <_arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au>, cupcake kaleidoscope , Renee , rhizome , wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii You rise from some new serum contrived from some new raining in love with the volume of self in the midst. You rise with some blunt stomach with faded grails and such world breaking and your eye slides down a rifle's scope to limn variable pressure on restaurant overcrowding. Shoulder-to-shoulder we gesture and carry our blood down the blacktop away from roads just unfinished. Further and faster we sabotage these razors that spackle in gumdrop our televised detournment. The marksman: uncommunistic, lying in lyric waiting for no struggle of frontal blown. I must have awakened in the shell of new winter, measuring the frosts that jangle in my hair against the freezerburn on lyrical basilisk receipts. What world there is when she aims low across the street is sucked like tequila down to salt lemon lining for the roads away from blocking off traffic forever. Airplanes muscle the first tones of Eno through a sky unfounded and growling with sepsis. The marks on the raindrop: the muzzle on the rifle: the finality of stabbing disco: where will we walk unaimed for now? ===== http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html meditation, net art, poeisis: blog http://lewislacook.blogspot.com/ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 05:01:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: ON ROSEMARIE WALDROP'S LAWN Comments: cc: "arc.hive" <_arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au>, cupcake kaleidoscope , Renee , rhizome , wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii The first pressings of my hair start in the game of rain. Once you move one chip to the right, hoping to second-guess what first- off wills itself florid in masks, a reversal waits behind the slamming of limpid doors. As predicted, the sound quality in these early recordings leaves something desirable on your bedside table. Last night I stroke you deeper, pinning you to the softness of your own overgrown flesh; we harvest celibacy in a garden of lapping pauses, such and so many of the tongues of silences cracking our names like walnuts on the shelves. ===== http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html meditation, net art, poeisis: blog http://lewislacook.blogspot.com/ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 00:01:17 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "B.E. Basan" Subject: A question on production MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Noticing an increase in the volume of poetic contributions to the list, I'm wondering how these daily contributions are actually written or produced. I guess some are slower than others but it takes me days or weeks or even months to write something the same length of some of Alan Sondheim's work (or at least something I'd let slip into the pubic domain).By the feel of many of them, they could be spontaneous or automatic (as in surrealist automatic) ... I remember a while back Jesse brought up something to do with these pieces being "written" by programs, or something of the like. If that is the case, would attributions like "originality" be placed on the creation of the code or algorithm that produced the language, or done away with completely? Sorry, if this comes across as an unbelievably laconic and half formed question. -Ben ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 08:22:35 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "J. Scappettone" Subject: Joanne Kyger and Garrett Caples reading: 10/24, UCB Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable The Holloway Poetry Series Presents Joanne Kyger and Garrett Caples Thursday, October 24 Colloquium with the poets begins at 4:30 p.m. in the English Dept. Lounge, 330 Wheeler Hall Readings begin at 6 pm, Maud Fife Room, 315 Wheeler Hall, UC Berkeley Joanne Kyger has played a vital role in the American poetry scene for more than four decades and has been associated with nearly every innovative poetry tendency during that time, from the San Francisco Renaissance and th= e Beats to the postmodern movements of today. One of the major experimenters, hybridizers, and visionaries of poetry, Kyger is very much a poet of place, with a sensibility that is delicate, graceful, and never wasteful. Her poem= s explore themes of friendship, love, community, and morality, and draw on Native American sources as well as the path of Buddhist philosophy. Kyger=B9s love for poetry manifests itself in a grander scheme of consciousness-expansion and lesson, but always in the realm of the everyday= . Her most recent books include P=E1tzcuaro (San Francisco: Blue Millennium, 1999), Some Life (Sausalito: Post-Apollo Press, 2000), Strange Big Moon: Th= e Japan and India Journals, 1960-1964 (Berkeley: North Atlantic Books, 2000), Again (Albuquerque: La Alameda Press, 2001), and the long awaited As Ever: Selected Poems (Penguin Putnam, 2002). Garrett Caples is a poet living in Oakland; The Garrett Caples Reader wa= s published in 1999 by Black Square Editions and a new chapbook will appear this fall from Meritage Press. Free and open to the public For more information, please contact jscape@socrates.berkeley.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 09:52:52 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: our return policy on suicidal fantaties In-Reply-To: <200210070130.g971Uwx16665@webmail2.speakeasy.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v546) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit our return policy on suicidal fantaties name and volume area name and address place of birth destinations purpose did you ask a question name and address can you address your name will you be wearing a dress or dressed or as the second step second coming states debit card address and what digital divide over the formally depressed futurelly depressed presently crushed into a box permitted to be to obvious when in doubt use a comforter a condom adjective a big point perspective set the hand commands to dramatic effects likenesses and begin all apologies for past cold shoulder winds to much mockery have a ambient colic chase well done good job with those civilized prepackage taxed axes something in a size a 12 something spelled spectacular something just for you that look of gleam that speed that sensational eternity call it today name your volume fill your cart full your symbolic elements and discard the notice to witness the whispering to redressed history did you say you have a plan a zero weapon a sniper-scopes any medications and other former usual imposing impromptu degrees of downtrodden continuous constitutionally in doubt befuddlement's signs notices or criminal hypertension loss of weight are you trying to lose weight to fit size 0000000 bad breath had bad press with a group for bad breath of a book on bad breath we have the means of getting rid of bad breath simple lotion's cattail quicksand medications double trouble diagnoses have been prognosis to the parade for the defective the new brand name disinfectants don't despair you're here 24 hours a day without repair and or guaranteed storage we offer syndication judgment and past life therapy to the above names and address of all your pet's past lives that will be indebted permanently on a bronze plaque. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 12:47:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: Virginia is Common as Dirt Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Nations of the Heavens are skilled degenerates monkey a quintessence outen these brain- damaged cadavers sure enough this scratch of song lopsided reckoning yet most of them have bent sent back in scorn the bearers of my consent birth to boot with blessings to bestow her plaint fruit to the waverers did He not gather up every nation? spread a heavy cloud disbelieve us away the lowest dog a grave offense two lips may appoint prayer, setting everyone to labor a few times quickly told _________________________________________________________________ Get faster connections -- switch to MSN Internet Access! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 11:03:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nick LoLordo Subject: Re: nerdy and cool MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Alan Liu has a vast web theory/archive of cool--he'd perhaps say that cool is the key concept governing net culture--check out "Laws of Cool" and the proliferating subheadings at the "Voice of the Shuttle"... Vincent Nicholas LoLordo Assistant Professor Department of English University of Nevada-Las Vegas Las Vegas, NV 89154 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 13:05:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: Virginia Immortalized By Devotion Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed A great sense of economic following the interest will hold coquettish discharges the old conduct like one preparing fidelity Virginia immortalized by devotion (which above is the title line), whilst Jeff Harrison attracts exquisite associates with a glass of runaway discharges diffidence to slavery underwent that burning BURNING EXPLOSION sit and see these phantoms, at least in conflagration you must throw out festivity, at least in conflagration no computer program can get this money Virginia in a corner of an enormous business EVENTS VERY FINE transportation by the event a threat of the compendious afternoon haunting the high allegory heels heeding talk ------------------> SENTENCES BENT FORWARD I guess some breathe slower than others but it takes me days or weeks or even [IN VAIN THE WORDS months to let out a breath, during which I am understandably apprehensive. SIDE BY SIDE] _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 15:32:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: noah eli gordon Subject: new email/sonnets Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed hello, my old email: thenamenoah@yahoo.com has locked me out and been bouncing emails back; here's my new email: noaheligordon@hotmail.com thanks, Noah Eli Gordon also: I wasn't able to post during the sonnet thread, but I've got a double crown of sonnets in the current issue of 3rdbed (www.3rdbed.com) a great journal... _________________________________________________________________ Get a speedy connection with MSN Broadband. Join now! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 14:20:20 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew Maxwell Subject: Two home run readings at Dawsons, LA! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Germ and the Poetic Research Bloc present: John Tranter & Susan Wheeler This Sunday, Oct 27 at 4pm=20 AND Cecilia Vicu=F1a & Stacy Doris Sunday, Nov 10 at 4pm Both at Dawson's Book Shop in LA! *** Sunday, Oct 27, 4-6 pm. After the Anaheim Angels cursorily unshackle the Bonds of the San = Francisco (G)iants' championship hopes in six games this Saturday, come celebrate = the gleeful terminus of this arc of destiny with an audience of small = ball's sister art: Poetry! This Sunday afternoon, join one of Australia's = greatest living poets and the editor of the most significant online poetry = journal we have in English (Jacket Magazine), John Tranter, as he reads with the = author of the most timely post-suburban baseball poem I've read (http://jacketmagazine.com/14/wheeler.html), Susan Wheeler. They're = gonna hit the Logos Longball right through your frontal lobe! Susan Wheeler's first collection of poetry, Bag 'o' Diamonds, published = in 1993 by the University of Georgia Press, received the Norma Farber = First Book Award of the Poetry Society of America and was short-listed for = the Los Angeles Times Book Award. Her second, Smokes, won the Four Way Books = Award in 1998, and her third, Source Codes, was published by SALT Publishing = in 2001. Her awards include the Witter Bynner Prize for Poetry from the American Academy of Arts & Letters, and fellowships from the John Simon Guggenheim Foundation and the New York Foundation for the Arts. Her = work has appeared in six editions of the Scribner anthology Best American = Poetry, as well as in The Paris Review, New American Writing, Talisman, The New = Yorker and many other journals. On the creative writing faculties at = Princeton University and the New School's graduate program, she has also taught = at the University of Iowa, Rutgers, and New York University. One of Australia's foremost poets, John Tranter has published twenty = books, including The Floor of Heaven, At The Florida, Late Night Radio, Ultra, Heart Print, a Selected Poems in 1982, as well as a book of computer-assisted short stories, Different Hands. His work appears in = the Norton Anthology of Modern Poetry. He co-edited the Penguin Book of = Modern Australian Poetry (1991), published in Britain and the US as the = Bloodaxe Book of Modern Australian Poetry. He is the editor of the free Internet literary magazine Jacket at http://jacketmagazine.com. *** Then, in the second weekend of November, come out to see the ever = dazzling Chilean poet-performer Cecilia Vicu=F1a and sensational American poet-translator Stacy Doris read at an SRO event in Dawson's homey = photo cabin. Bios and news to come! *** Doors open at 4pm. Readings at 4:30 pm. Dawson's Book Shop is located at 535 N. Larchmont Blvd between Beverly = Blvd and Melrose Blvd. Tel: 213-469-2186 Readings are open to all. $3 donation requested for poets/venue. Call Andrew at 310.446.8162 x233 for more info. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 17:24:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Southpaw *for John Mulrooney* deathwish never looked so Hot, a favorite number of ours During intercourse it's funny to hum "Helter Skelter" or to ask for more meatloaf It's no longer enough to cry Uncle, or to be wisked away to a quiet place to be Beaten Father used my belt to tie my hands in the closet, I now leave it to Gravity to select my Toppings You are made of fiery tattoos and have Been fire twice, I lick the sink and tub for final mesculin Specks. Pay-per-view home invasions and crude interludes in cars will be Next Followed by Dumpster Divers already in Progress I wish I could say "Second Avenue" or "Houston St." Instead we fall into Suburban traps that will toughen skins A shame you have become Miscroscopic to have thrown in your tiny towel Shrinking and too tired to Matter Love comes to the serial killers, their relentless murderous mistakes _________________________________________________________________ Broadband? Dial-up? Get reliable MSN Internet Access. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 17:34:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: poem: this time spellchecked Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Southpaw *for John Mulrooney* deathwish never looked so Hot, a favorite number of ours During intercourse it's funny to hum "Helter Skelter" or to ask for more meatloaf It's no longer enough to cry Uncle, or to be whisked away to a quiet place to be Beaten Father used my belt to tie my hands in the closet, I now leave it to Gravity to select my Toppings You are made of fiery tattoos and have Been fire twice, I lick the sink and tub for final mescaline Specks. Pay-per-view home invasions and crude interludes in cars will be Next Followed by Dumpster Divers already in Progress I wish I could say "Second Avenue" or "Houston St." Instead we fall into Suburban traps that will toughen skins A shame you have become Microscopic to have thrown in your tiny towel Shrinking and too tired to Matter Love comes to the serial killers, their relentless murderous mistakes _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 18:57:07 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: sylvester pollet Subject: Report from Czech Republic Poetry Festival Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Andrew & all, I'm just back from a 5 day festival called Poezie bez hranic, Poetry without Borders (nice irony there for us) in Olomouc, CZ, Oct 9-13. Mostly poets from CZ & Eastern Europe, but also Russia, Germany,Ireland, Wales, France, etc. Four Americans, Jerry Rothenberg, Georgia Scott (pen name of Cheryl Alexander Malcolm), Galway Kinnell, and me. Most of us did OK for humility, I thought, but Kinnell played superstar, being picked up at Prague, driven to the festival at midnight, not attending any events that I could tell, and leaving right after his reading. He read the New Yorker thing, "When the Towers Fell," and some poems from a book just translated into Czech. Georgia Scott (who lives & teaches in Gdansk Poland) did a great performance reading of erotic poems in a bordello, Eroticky Klub Gejsa. Other readings were held in a great underground cafe/bar, the Ponorka, in a museum, some art galleries, a museum-auditorium, a city pavilion hall. Rothenberg read twice, actually, the second time as his part of a panel on Pound. I read to the largest audience of my life, with the help of a Czech actor reading some poems in translation, and then Petr Mikes, a Czech poet/translator/publisher/friend and I read the new work I'd done this summer, and which he & I had been working on translating over the days of the festival. Where the humility, humiliation really, comes in is in realizing that we live in a society that cares very little to not at all about what we do, and that in other societies this is not necessarily the case. To walk through Mahlerova (Mahler Street) to the theatre where he was orchestra director, to learn that Mozart wrote/premiered his 6th symphony in a cathedral there (at age 11), to see posters & banners all over the city promoting a poetry festival, and to see all events standing room only, with enthusiastic audiences of young and old, to see full press coverage, just extraordinary. There's a whole world out there! People who read! Sylvester >Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 23:21:05 -0800 >From: Andrew Rathmann >Subject: Re: poetry & globalism: ethnopoetics > >Does this 1984 statement by Rothenberg (reprinted on the UbuWebsite that >Pierre Joris mentions) qualify as literary globalism? > >"The inherited view =E3 no longer bearable =E3 was that one such idea of >poetry, as developed in the West, was sufficient for the total telling. >Against this =E3 as the facts, the poems themselves, revealed =E3 was the >realization that poetry, like language itself, existed everywhere: as >powerful, even complex, in its presumed beginnings as in many of its later >works. In the light of that approach, poetry appeared not as a luxury but >as a true necessity: not a small corner of the world for those who lived >it but equal to the world itself." > >(see http://www.ubu.com/ethno/index.html) > >If so, then from Rothenberg's account we can infer that globalism is, >ironically, first of all an awareness of cultural _deficiency_. We become >aware, in other words, that our native literary tradition is necessarily >limited in outlook. We realize that we have been subjected to the >haphazard of birth, and that to grasp the "total telling" we must outstrip >such arbitrary constraints. Globalism as humility: that would seem to be >one theme that poetry might contribute to the political debates... > >Andy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 00:02:25 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lakey Teasdale Subject: as if men. Lies? the poetry? Comments: To: "WRYTING-L : Writing and Theory across Disciplines" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 1 as if men. Lies? the poetry? Dies. perhaps. Paper and misery. Do not reflect. Truth is found in the skin. in the 2 There it is. Truth in the skin. We spoke of/in numbers. We spoke of. Uncivilised. Well. Make out a plan. Today: Just to go on. Go out. Gild feathers Paint hours. Varnish the flowers. Polish the weather. Tell. Lies? 3 have you? Have you not looked inside? Have you not looked inside? Look: The poem. The book. The ashes. and Them? The poem. The book. The ashes. and them. 4 sorry. no fantasy follows. Tonight. This tired army. Do without. Invent all the others. Sorry. No rhapsody. No Following. the following tired army. Sorry. But no. 5 applies conscientiously. perennial puzzles. applies geographically startles. The hours. The hours. and. Are poets then liars? Or the truth? A reflection? 6 The reflection is sound! The snake bites! Double tongued. Double tonguing. One tries, tries or One does without. and the lies? Lie within. And the liars? Without. 7 What are we trying to do here. Ignore? Gentlemen? What? Can you avoid? Call things by name, please. Follow the map. There are fathom-lines. Easy to follow the map. You can fathom the lines. Easily. Fathom and map. 8 There. There on the edges of. Inside the ashes of. There. Between the remaining. I tell you it's quiet. There. I tell you it's quiet. There. This is the thing: 9 There are numbers on skin. There are liars within and without. There is doubt. There is fear. There is The old, old story. But different. This time will be different. This time. We will number. And count. 10 Time. Again the old story. But dif- ferent. This time will be different. This time will. Intervals. Intervals. This time will be. Intervals. Time is the beginning of. Stand up. and Can you not count? It is so easy. Begin with one. or One. Followed by one. More. follows one. Again one other to follow. then one. Just. Before. Going before 11 There is distraction. The fearful of numbers in skin. Look for a number. In skin. There is avoidance. The fearful of numbers. Look for a number of. And/or excuses. 12 It cannot be justified Nor can it be judged. Can not be avoided. Just. Forget? Never! And thee. No! Never. It is really quite simple. Not: 0000000 but a number. A number. or numbers Followed by: follows: 000,000,000 13 Forget not. Forget thee? No. Never. It is really quite simple. Not: 00000 But. A number. Followed by. But a Number: 000,000,000. Not liars or 14 Forget not. Not. Ever. Forget. and judge not. it is as simple as skin. And a number in. Is this too difficult? Is it familiar? Are you not ashamed? Does your shame? Not. Make. You. Ill. 15 does it make you contrary? Are you to blame? Ah. Who turned their back first. Time is: a back turned. Around. 16 history. The old, old story the good old. Familiar? and good? old days: The ashes form fiction? or poetry? Look inside. Look. is this? Familiar? 17 Basically. This is not a lie. and we have seen it before. Basically. This is not a lie. and we have seen it before. Are you surprised? Did you not look inside? Did you not? Look inside. Just look. Inside. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 00:55:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: Recently on the blog MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT haven't had a chance to look at _Short Fuse but assume there is no mention of _Homo Sonorus, for example which might have given it some historical and international legitimacy? I'm intrigued by your asking about/for a metalanguage and why this should/could differ from a metalanguage for poetry? I'm bemusing here on several things. One is the term metalanguage (I do seem to be in a definitional rut these days, but?) "meta" here seems to denote above or superior to language while for me the real meat is on a level with or possibly beneath language (sublanguage?). I was also intrigued by your question of performance poetry on the page but on reflection wonder if this is the issue. I find these days that I experience my writing as performance or at least action or gesturebut I'm not sure this wasn't always the case. This gestural experience may have had it's roots inthe experience of learning to tell poetry from prose (despite Merleau =Ponty's _Prose of the World) or the discovery of webpoetry or animated poetry. I find i now try to do it in 'reading' poetry as experiencing poetry now as well. tom bell ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 22:40:22 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: VAG.3D MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII VAG.3D BLENDER_v203REND SRscreen DATA DATA DATA DATA DATA DATA DATA DATA DATA DATA DATA DATA DATA DATA DATA DATA DATA DATA DATA DATA DATA DATA DATA DATA DATA DATA DATA DATA DATA DATA DATA DATA ?DATA SRscreen.001 DATA DATA DATA DATA DATA DATA DATA DATA DATA DATA DATA DATA DATA DATA DATA DATA DATA DATA DATA DATA DATA DATA DATA XU?" ?8^j f>G< u>hJR >'l'? L?UUM? 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OBLamp.009 Ve9@ *Q?!L C6KA MfW>b OBCone Ve9@ >~*B Ve9@ C33 */TEXT-EJECTA/* TETex.001 ;_>33 TETex.002 TETex.003 TETex.004 IMP9220035.JPG e:\100OLYMP\P9220035.JPG IM399.jpg e:\trilby\399.jpg IM191.jpg e:\trilby2\191.jpg CACamera.001 */EYE-EJECTA/* LALamp */LIGHT-EJECTA/* LALamp.001 LALamp.002 LALamp.003 LALamp.004 LALamp.005 LALamp.006 LALamp.007 LALamp.008 LALamp.009 IPObIpo DATAP @DATAP @DATAP DATAP DATAP DATAP DATAP ?DATAP ?DATAP ?DATA Ak#J@ BZW,@ BgF@? P{1Ct- 4C^0 }4CPq 5Cmh DATA Bdr3 "'BV' Wm6B \Bh! BEye@ DATA 0AO%6 B0e&@ PY{Bzp C4w' L4CM 4Cu'r DATA seA) BHAC DATA WA"g n7BGx BC9! B$H8= 4CO; DATA m7BR# DBl& \B7C B6un DATA }#2C% M_4C1 DAC? DATA }#2C% M_4C1 DAC? DATA }#2C% M_4C1 DAC? IPObIpo.001 DATAP ?DATAP DATAP DATAP DATAP DATAP ADATAP ?DATAP ?DATAP ?DATA 0A.# k]7B ,/]BQ 4C)k VvAC DATA 0AdjV yn|B C"b4@ 5Cjg DATA +\AWE B9&2 p%^BDW Wc{B Bf`= $C-P 24*CxB 4Cy# z7Ci /qAC DATA r[YA i5BM! 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K_4C IPObIpo.002 DATAP DATAP DATAP DATA -9\C DATA BJBA ""CG DATA O'FB*O x#C; WOWorld.001 DATAP ;1?z "C?GLOB DNA1 SDNANAME} */WORLD-EJECTA/* TLEN STRCt ENDB === ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 21:00:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: speak and tell zero percent down In-Reply-To: <001b01c27956$16628960$f650fea9@LakeyTeasdale> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v546) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable speak and tell zero percent down rackets everywhere a dead crossdressed bean has been detained there=92s= =20 a can of worms but not a rescued purpose buildings in seven stories arc=20= a lamp of irony butter showing the way with a whey-an-curds tray I=20 have a need note a purchase calendar a time share starlit vicious=20 compositions are you keeping up to the left is the g-note spot bite=20 like a itchy scratch-sniff this is a leaky acetylene tank the Rock=20 of gibraltar I ordered my personality guess your data from the=20 department of state interior and treasury got a bisexuals inventory of=20= expandable smart money and greasy annuities get ready for pension and=20 the position checks can yon name that spot between your legs by using=20= a floppy disk big bites and current ratio libido from your personal=20 version rapture this hale hale glow worm stuff is first-class=20 second-class third client from the sun 4th from the center last but=20 not least trained dogs mutant speak-n-taco Bell paint by numbers=20 monochrome shame built up on all that nassty dirt and grime original=20 sin monologue on the prowl in its structural bird in the clock sysdrome=20= delayed signification credit cards are the rage have you heard what=20 will they think saw what they say ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 21:42:51 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew Rathmann Subject: Re: Report from Czech Republic Poetry Festival In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks for the update, Sylvester. To what do you attribute their enthusiasm (I mean, beyond the inherent interest of the poets)? I suppose it's the American illiteracy and indifference that really need to be explained, but can you hazard a conjecture about why conditions seem better there? Does it partly reflect a European government's commitment to funding such things? Is it something in Czech beer? Andy Where the humility, humiliation really, comes in is >in realizing that we live in a society that cares very little to not at all >about what we do, and that in other societies this is not necessarily the >case. To walk through Mahlerova (Mahler Street) to the theatre where he was >orchestra director, to learn that Mozart wrote/premiered his 6th symphony >in a cathedral there (at age 11), to see posters & banners all over the >city promoting a poetry festival, and to see all events standing room only, >with enthusiastic audiences of young and old, to see full press coverage, >just extraordinary. There's a whole world out there! People who read! >Sylvester ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 22:39:13 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Jullich Subject: Re: sales rankings query Comments: To: KENT JOHNSON In-Reply-To: <3DB42C54.23495.ACA0CBD@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Kent, Your guess, about the downloadable Adobe titles being ranked separately in comparison only to Adobe sales, is an intelligent one that hadn't occured to me. Despite the phenomenal ---anomalous?--- surprise of Silliman's Amazon Adobe ranking, I didn't explore any of the questions that that list raised, though they were numerous. Amazon is very unforthcoming with on-line clarification about the rankings; what I quoted at the bottom of my post is the whole of what they provide, as far as I could find under Help: "The calculation is based on Amazon.com sales and is updated regularly. The top 10,000 best sellers are updated each hour to reflect sales in the preceding 24 hours. The next 100,000 are updated daily. The rest of the list is updated monthly, based on several different factors." The key lies shrouded somewhere in that cryptic "several different factors." There seems to be some sort of additional time factor, I think. Ashbery, for example, outsells himself by 6,670 (~Chinese Whispers~) to 825,229 (~Your Name Here~), which seems strangely implausible. There are other, unlikely contradictions even within the small press, equally recent titles: Gordon/Sullivan's ~Swoon~ (689,659) outranks Gordon/Sullivan's ~Are Not Our Lowing Heifers~ (1,610,791) ~by a million!~ Shouldn't it be assumed, too, that since there's a third time line of new titles constantly being added, that the heap is larger at the top (a downward pyramid shape), so that the rankings are weighted by the chronology of their publication, the older titles experiencing the least "competition"? Most of the 10,000 - 100,000 rankings ("updated daily"), such as T.S. Eliot's or O'Hara's ~Collected,~ despite the exceptional fame of those poets, would seem to be stagnant sales, in my opinion, as they're outdated (O'Hara: 1995; the Eliot: 1963!?) and, in a sense from a 2002 sales perspective, their hour has passed. That is, titles published at a time when money was freer or on-line book-buying enjoyed a greater vogue would maintain ~a permanent advantage~ over rankings from lean years. Caveat, too, that the rankings cannot be exactly equated with number of copies sold (you: "that way AY beats John Ashbery's Selected"--- although I think his Selected, in particular, would have greatly undersold any of his ongoing titles, as he's the kind of poet whose audience follows on a title by title basis [I, for example, never bought the Selected])). Bok's ~Eunoia,~ which ranks as Amazon 52,500, was reported by its publisher, Coach House, to have sold 11,000 copies. A few years ago, when I managed to seduce out of one of Ashbery's publishers an admission about his print run, I was told around 4,000 copies per title/edition (!). Can Mullen's ~Sleeping With The Dictionary,~ at that date before the National Book Award news, be presumed to have had a print run much greater than the small press standard 1000 or so for such a title? IMPORTANTLY, too: If you look at something like Olson's ~Maximus,~ (219,051) which I would guess enjoys virtually ~no~ sales anymore (the same, forlorn single copy in the Manhattan Upper West Side Barnes & Noble has been sitting on the shelves for ~years~), at some point in the rankings very quickly the sales probably withers away to dozens ~or less.~ The list probably, in fact, includes *ZERO* sales, after a reasonably early point! (Would there be any reason for Brad Gooch's 1994 out-of-print limited availability ~City Poet~ [821,381] to be selling anymore? How many copies of Giorgio De Chirico's novel, ~Hebdomeros,~ published in 1993, could possibly be selling in 2002?--- but the ranking is [a ~high~] 274,131.) . . . where the difference in ranking would reflect only that *the Z,000,000th title was added as a ~potential~ ISBN one million many titles after the Y,000,000th title.* Also, unknown is how Amazon's "Used & New" sales option figures in: "Used & New" can get the buyer ~Maximus~ for $2.31. The ranking doesn't differentiate between what prices the title could've been bought at, and its effect. As you can see from the dollar signs that are still floating around in that list, I was at first curious how cost might correlate with ranking, . . . but, for one afternoon's amusement, it all soon proved too baffling. The two titles that originally interested Gary Sullivan, for example, ~Aloud~ and the Norton ~Post-Modern Poetry,~ compare at $12.98/$9.02 (list price/Used & New) versus $18.87/$13.50 (as I recall, the latter was higher back on the day that I made the list: their discounting also happens at some unexplained rate),--- so that, assuming Amazon shoppers to be by the very nature of the medium price-conscious, that would have a leveling effect on the differences in rankings or "poetic value". An interesting on-line bookseller to compare is Barnes & Noble: whereas I can't figure out how to get Amazon to show their poetry bestsellers sequentially beyond the 25th title, Barnes & Noble allows you to review their poetry bestsellers up to the 2,876th. http://browse.barnesandnoble.com/controller?visgrp=fiction&slinkprefix=userid%3D6QTFY3QO2N&n=343517&g=343517+343516&sid=D6563DB4BF0E&act=M1 On first glance, they seem to sell less poetry (that is, more non-poetry than poetry), but, by comparative rankings, the logic is a conundrum: there, Billy Collins' ~Nine Horses~ (1,002 on Amazon) is their 243rd; Creeley's ~Best American Poetry~ (2,583 on Amazon) is 31,289; . . . But a Joe Ceravolo title is 2698th! and $70.00 price tags are not enough to dissuade buyers from turning Jean Froissart's ~Prison Amoureuse~ and ~The Songs of the Women Troubadours~ into 1896th and 1897th. The 1982 720 pp. Oxford ~Godfrey of Bulloigne: A Critical Edition of Edward Fairfax's Translation of Tasso's Gerusalemme Liberata, together with Fairfax's Original Poems~ (not even listed on Amazon) is poetry # 1091! (which I guess means a single section of an obscure university course is enough to outsell thousands of poetry titles?) Could, for example, Amazon's last 1,000,000th titles or some range of it consist ~only~ of poetry titles, which "do not sell"?! There's Amazon # 65,971, for example, Jorie Graham's ~Dream of a Unified Field,~ which the Buffalo Poetics List Post under http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9703&L=poetics&P=R12027&I=-3 quotes Publishers Weekly as selling 8,500 copies; but the book ~Poetry Like Bread,~ which the same source claims sold 9,000 copies, comes in as Amazon # 310,638 (a difference of 500 copies would translate into an inverse rankings difference of around 250,000??). Etc.: Incommunicado Press' rock poetry ~Any Rough Times Are Now Behind You,~ at 5,000 copies, is Amazon # 190,379. So, these sources do not dependably corroborate each other. (I suspect fudging in the publishers' reported sales figures: aren't they really using those reports as a form of advertising to increase future sales?) Jewel's legendary ~A Night Without Armor,~ which "sold for a reported $1 million", ranks 7,481 on Amazon. (http://www.pw.org/mag/newsparker0901.htm) Paul McCartney's ~Blackbird Singing,~ (Amazon 7,627 in hardcover, 29,504 in soft) was estimated to have sold approximately *3,750* copies in its first year, last year (same source as above). In posting that list, which was very casually done off the top of my head, what I hoped would show was what I saw in its details: that it contradicts itself and is statistically a very peculiar and unfathomable indicator (certainly not of "poetic value"). One of the problems is that, without plugging in a host of non-poetry titles that I can't even think of since my interests are so narrow (---under Outdoor Cooking books, ~Weber's Big Book of Grilling~ is # 1,667! or, under *Canning & Preserving* titles, ~The Joy of Pickling: 200 Flavor-Packed Recipes for All Kinds of Produce from Garden or Market~ is 28,286!---), into the gaps between one poetry ranking and the next, there's no way of telling quite what those rankings represent in the full library of what we might consider viable reading. (I can't even seem, intentionally, to ~drive~ the Browse Subjects feature low enough to reflect how infinitesimal the poetry rankings are: under Craft and Hobbies [*Applique*], ~Better Homes and Gardens 501 Quilt Blocks: A Treasury of Patterns for Patchwork and Applique~ is Amazon # 8,281! and, under Lace & Tatting, even ~Terrific Tassels & Fabulous Fringe~ is # 76,511!!) ...Nice hearing from you. Sorry if I was gruff at your snideness about Saussure and the Saturnian poets a while back. I've been surprised, now that the more "liberal" List policies let Gabriel Gudding squeak through Homeland Security, that you yourself haven't re-enlisted (unless you already have under a different name, heh heh heh, and just found the climate too terribly changed). I look forward to reading your Greek thing. My best to Ammonides and that rock band kid of his. Jeffrey --- KENT JOHNSON wrote: > Hello Jeffrey, > > Say, I just saw your post on the sale rankings at > Amazon, and > since you didn't include Yasusada's Doubled > Flowering in the long > list, I went to Amazon and checked the ranking for > the Adobe > download version. It's 6,496, which puts it right > behind Maya > Angelou's Collected Poems, and ahead of any other > "avant-garde" > book, I believe, except Ron Silliman's N/O Adobe, > which you peg > at 2000-something, which is pretty amazing, if that > figure is for all 3 > million plus books at amazon. But do you know: Are > the rankings > for the Adobe books *just* for the Adobe books or is > it against the > whole 3 million, or whatever the number is? I'm just > curious, since if > it's the latter, that would seem to represent a fair > number of people > downloading the cheap five buck file. > > Well, so I hope it's the latter, since that way AY > beats John > Ashbery's Selected. Not that that matters all that > much. > > Always enjoy your posts at Buffalo when I check in > and rummage > around. With Sullivan, Davis, a few others, yours > are always the > most interesting. > > best, > > Kent __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 01:01:37 -0700 Reply-To: cstroffo@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino Subject: Happy 69 David Bromige MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Happy Birthday to you Mr. Bromige C ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 01:04:05 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: WEB-PUBLISHED NATION ALVIN SACHS KETHER #0008 Comments: To: 7-11@mail.ljudmila.org, ImitationPoetics@listserv.unc.edu, o-o@konf.lt, webartery@yahoogroups.com, syndicate@anart.no, _arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au, owner-realpoetik@scn.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit there is only one nation: the web-published nation there is only one god: and he exists on the internet www.web-published-nation.com ALVIN SACHS KETHER #0008 [excerpt] take conkling renomination immediately parting received system too late more home personality grimshaw contorting unmeaning features visage letting cents serve countenances all board lighted up undertake son venetian senator whom custom tragedies georgia where accomplished persons nay involved literary people say created shuckings during summer occurred death one up connived disobedience divine law spice authorship honour impede achievement mercy delegation final meeting judgment poor husband students situated small island wamma spit science gave daley systematic threshing will usual every party state new york listening folger became more more fellow story thousand volumes brought together hearted influence emperor namely beast came wood devoured send away lovely maid who sold bassa some being disagreeably disturbed brave both death slavery will part method restriction lines more less obliquely sufficiently remarkable sooty georgia traders some friendship benevolence tangible evils come technical acquainted state knows little degree depressing mountains hills cried ah faithless spaniard negligent vine will inconsiderately severe instead horror dismay being overcharged shilling tavern-many years borne remains leading will doubtless unmannerly deportment night courage seasons time went left think will regiment fugitives drawn up formed secession principles peace defy obstacles bid despair stipulations bewildered otherwise thrive equally well troubling study some preliminary talk read habits living set exemption private property towards extremity listen proposal kind peremptorily thing university government up time rule psychic life rebellion heresy rich shops windows threw cold water shewn dead friend laid greatest show electricity treatment certain made gross method glasses almost throughout mistrust see exuberance irrigation department vivifying next species paradisea regia amusements kind always highly eternal predecessors embassy own boat escape foreigners went pursuit truth such suspicious blackest slave where white beast came wood devoured send away yielded forth fields taint smoke blown off dodds stated treated precisely character assumed ralfe found experiments court states note jut wood order prevent bloodshed tenant made river baying peace defy obstacles bid despair commissaire woman conceive made apologies father opinions seeming saint opportune moment plan great fortune only daughter rich take social stand defence doctor contrary peleg peshell together dangerous allow wander requested show came international tribunal came charleston cæsar disliked cassius want aldermanic characteristics ripest alto douro grapes verdeilho attention claims shadow shall less shadow succession such movements can unpleasing board will sink too both figures beneficial arousing does arraign white prisoners regiment fugitives drawn up formed roll subject modification men ability quieting rivalries ought eternal welfare both well sa --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. 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Version: 6.0.404 / Virus Database: 228 - Release Date: 10/15/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 07:35:01 -0400 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: the day job.... i was half-interested in all the stats and #'s and rankings of Amazon's Po....but in the 'real' world of the sidewalks of New York....I finally sold the BLACKBURN...grossman book....after 2 years...nice copy...maybe 15 bucks...to an English Girl who had never heard of him...and who i had to give the 15 min. lecture to...I've had 4 Zukofsky titles on the street for more than 2 years without a nibble...i have in stock maybe 20 other Z titles...i've NEVER sold one....Olson outside big UGH...the po world is completely marginilized...or as we say 'rounds this way...BARAKAIZED...you can propagandize 'em all you want in class...but the moment they steps outside...and you wonder why we're HATED... which is why i knocked off 2 copies of my new magnum opus...i could have strong armed some friends or nabes into buying a few copies..why bother..just show it to 'em....& on with the show...drn.. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 04:41:18 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: "I think today may be more amber," Comments: cc: "arc.hive" <_arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au>, cupcake kaleidoscope , Renee , rhizome , wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Today's golden with engineering, Brad says to Brittany over the covers, who plows through the dark like a rifle's antique fin evoking erect series' retention with impacted capacities. "Sky's like an antique paper or the skin of old plants meshing with horizontal nodes." Today, it shoulde be noted, loads into a new browser window via javascript popup advertising; ineffective as it may be, and regardless of function rs(n,u,w,h) { remote = window.open(u, n, 'width=' + w + ',height=' + h +',resizable=yes,scrollbars=yes'); if (remote != null) { if (remote.opener == null) remote.opener = self; window.name = 'myYahooRoot'; remote.location.href = u; }. Maybe there's blood in your mouth, which commends with hooks the waters and their skimming over: Brad and Brittany asleep, eyelids pressed like petals on the white box truck foaming, we got the whole of the sun nozzled in our vegetation outside, he whispers to her rustily over an older skin of ferns brushing japanese calligraphy, maybe there's blond in your month of modes spilling lipid dreams. body { color:#000000; background:#ffffff; font-family:frutiger,arial,helvetica; font-size:10pt;} body A { color:#000000; } My body is no color of notepad stretched, she mentions in passing a sport utility vehicle primed with a powerful bomb slammed into an Israeli bus at rush hour here this afternoon, and once more we're as naked and as soft as new skin ready for puncture going to work. "I think today may be more amber," you gasp, the engine and transmission of the vehicle carrying the explosives lay some 50 yards from the bus, by a left leg severed below the knee. ===== http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html meditation, net art, poeisis: blog http://lewislacook.blogspot.com/ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 08:32:31 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Wheeler Subject: Readings Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed In addition to reading with the extraordinary John Tranter at Dawson's on Sunday, I will be doing another reading in Los Angeles this Thursday: UCLA Hammer Museum Thursday, October 24 7:00 p.m. 10899 Wilshire Boulevard 310-443-7000 free on Thursdays Would be ace to see any of you at either. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 08:56:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mdw Subject: politically conservative poets in the U.S. since 1950? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A student in my Experience of Poetry class asked me an interesting question the other day. His reasons for asking the question aren't interesting, but I thought the question was: "Aren't there any political conservative poets in the U.S.?" Now, let's say that what he means, in this instance, by conservative is a fairly conventional U.S. definition--someone who votes for the Republican Party. So I don't mean to include here poets who from the perspective of the political and aesthetic radicals on this list (you know who you, uh, we, are) might be called conservative because they don't like language poetry or write conventional MFA narrative verse--those people, in my experience, may be pro-capitalist Democrats, but they're never Republicans. They're mainstream, but not conservative. I'd also like to exclude from the last certain right wing radicals like, say, Pound, who whatever the confusion in his fascism and Jeffersonian democracy was never, as far as I know, a Republican. So, who does that leave, especially if we talk about poets who came to prominence in the 1950s and afterwards? Eliot, of the older Modernists, was still around, but not in the United States. So there's Allen Tate, and certainly James Dickey, the most prominent conservative poet from the 50s on that I can think of right now. Other southern poets? William Jay Smith? Robert Penn Warren I think was a southern Democrat, although probably he still qualifies as conservative. Who else? Any Northern Republican poets? Even an aesthetically conservative poet like Thomas McGrath was a long-time communist. There's Carl Thayler, who Skanky Possum published, and who likes Joe McCarthy and Calvin Coolidge, but he hardly qualifies as having any prominence. And what, I wonder, does all this say about poetry in the U.S.? Maybe not much, maybe something about the relationship between poetry and a market economy? But for instance, my guess is that there are more politically conservative poets in Britain, although I don't know for sure. Names? Ideas? Mark ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 14:03:44 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: paula speck Subject: Re: Report from Czech Republic Poetry Festival Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Listers-- My guess is that what happens in the Czech republic is what happens everywhere in the world EXCEPT the US. I know it happens in Latin America and especially in Argentina, which I know best. The US dominates mass entertainment media (movies, pop music, etc.) The rest of the world consumes our mass entertainment willingly and avidly, when they want escapism. But when they want to see characters and settings that bear some resemblance to their own lives, they turn to works produced closer to home. And since a movie, for example, with high production values is quite expensive (and a relatively small language or culture group like the Dutch or the Portuguese can't count on selling the work to outsiders), this work expressing local scenes and problems is not likely to be a movie, but instead a novel, a short story or even a poem. The end result is that art forms that require fewer resources and can be produced by individuals or small groups still have substantial audiences and fulfull a non-elite need in places like Buenos Aires, Amsterdam, Lima, and Lisbon. I saw this myself in Buenos Aires, where Jorge Luis Borges, the writer of fantastic, philosophical, and what we could consider "high culture" short stories was such a celebrity that a truck driver stopped in traffic to get his autograph and offer him a lift and a waitress in an airport coffee shop excused herself, went back to her locker, and shyly produced a battered copy of one of his books for him to sign. So there's a price to be paid for living in the richest, most culturally dominent nation in the world. Other social and cultural currents are operating as well, of course, but I really think that what I just described is a big part of it. Do listees in far corners of the world agree? Paula Speck (currently in Washington, D.C.) >From: Andrew Rathmann >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: Report from Czech Republic Poetry Festival >Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 21:42:51 -0800 > >Thanks for the update, Sylvester. To what do you attribute their >enthusiasm (I mean, beyond the inherent interest of the poets)? I suppose >it's the American illiteracy and indifference that really need to be >explained, but can you hazard a conjecture about why conditions seem better >there? > >Does it partly reflect a European government's commitment to funding such >things? Is it something in Czech beer? > >Andy > > >Where the humility, humiliation really, comes in is > >in realizing that we live in a society that cares very little to not at >all > >about what we do, and that in other societies this is not necessarily >the > >case. To walk through Mahlerova (Mahler Street) to the theatre where he >was > >orchestra director, to learn that Mozart wrote/premiered his 6th symphony > >in a cathedral there (at age 11), to see posters & banners all over the > >city promoting a poetry festival, and to see all events standing room >only, > >with enthusiastic audiences of young and old, to see full press coverage, > >just extraordinary. There's a whole world out there! People who read! > >Sylvester _________________________________________________________________ Unlimited Internet access -- and 2 months free! Try MSN. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/2monthsfree.asp ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 10:07:00 -0400 Reply-To: bstefans@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Brian Stefans [arras.net]" Subject: SEGUE READING: Jackson Mac Low and Maggie O'Sullivan Comments: To: bks cuny MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit SEGUE READING SERIES AT THE BOWERY POETRY CLUB http://www.segue.org/calendar/calendar_index.htm http://www.bowerypoetry.com/ 308 BOWERY, JUST NORTH OF HOUSTON Saturday, October 26 4 (sharp) - 6 PM $4 admission goes to support the readers Curators: Brian Kim Stefans & Gary Sullivan ::Jackson Mac Low:: Publishers Weekly once called Jackson Mac Low "America's most indefatigable experimental poet"‹he's also been one of the most influential. The long-awaited, 250-page Doings: Assorted Performance Pieces 1955­2002 was just published by Granary Books. A nice selection of his work can be found at: http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/maclow/. ::Maggie O'Sullivan:: Publishers Weekly may not have called Maggie O'Sullivan anything, but she is one of England's most indefatigable experimental poets, having published fourteen books including Unofficial Word (Galloping Dog, 1998) and In the House of the Shaman (Reality Street, 1993). She edited Out Of Everywhere: Linguistically Innovative Poetry by Women in North America & the UK (Reality Street, 1996). ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 10:12:35 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Re: politically conservative poets in the U.S. since 1950? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/22/02 8:58:02 AM, mdw@GWU.EDU writes: << A student in my Experience of Poetry class asked me an interesting question the other day. His reasons for asking the question aren't interesting, but I thought the question was: "Aren't there any political conservative poets in the U.S.?" Now, let's say that what he means, in this instance, by conservative is a fairly conventional U.S. definition--someone who votes for the Republican Party. So I don't mean to include here poets who from the perspective of the political and aesthetic radicals on this list (you know who you, uh, we, are) might be called conservative because they don't like language poetry or write conventional MFA narrative verse--those people, in my experience, may be pro-capitalist Democrats, but they're never Republicans. They're mainstream, but not conservative. I'd also like to exclude from the last certain right wing radicals like, say, Pound, who whatever the confusion in his fascism and Jeffersonian democracy was never, as far as I know, a Republican. So, who does that leave, especially if we talk about poets who came to prominence in the 1950s and afterwards? Eliot, of the older Modernists, was still around, but not in the United States. So there's Allen Tate, and certainly James Dickey, the most prominent conservative poet from the 50s on that I can think of right now. Other southern poets? William Jay Smith? Robert Penn Warren I think was a southern Democrat, although probably he still qualifies as conservative. Who else? Any Northern Republican poets? Even an aesthetically conservative poet like Thomas McGrath was a long-time communist. There's Carl Thayler, who Skanky Possum published, and who likes Joe McCarthy and Calvin Coolidge, but he hardly qualifies as having any prominence. And what, I wonder, does all this say about poetry in the U.S.? Maybe not much, maybe something about the relationship between poetry and a market economy? But for instance, my guess is that there are more politically conservative poets in Britain, although I don't know for sure. Names? Ideas? Mark >> Whether or not a poet is an "aesthetic radical" is hardly an indication of the politics. One of our most aesthetically radical living poets characterizes himself as a Libertarian and has voted Republican. In fact, he is described in more than one major reference book as the most experimental poet of our times. Although I doubt that he unswervingly toes the Conservative line, just as I doubt he has always voted Republican, his politics do swing right on several issues. For example, he is against Affirmative Action (He told me this face to face.). I am referring to Richard Kostelantetz. Richard's aesthetics, judging by his "notes towards a theory" in a recent issue of Moria, in their dismissal of the emotions and "extreme subject matter," can only be described as Puritanical. I suspect that some on and off this list who fancy themselves on the left might agree with his Poetics. This is not to impugn his--or anyone's--talent, politics, or product. And since Richard has made both his political and aesthetic leanings public on many occasions, I am certainly not speaking out of school. To be "aesthetically radical" is not, of course, synomymous with either leftist politics or aesthetics. Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com KojaPress.com Amazon.com BarnesandNoble.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 10:37:28 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alicia Askenase Subject: Prevalett Reminder Comments: To: whpoets@dept.english.upenn.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Poetry Workshop at the Walt Whitman Arts Center with poet KRISTIN PREVALETT 10 am to 12:30 pm SATURDAY, OCTOBER 26 Open registration. $30/$20 members Guidelines: Send one poem you would like to discuss, preferably by E mail, though Snail Mail is ok. This class will include in-class writing exercises, and will be followed by a visit to Walt Whitman's home. Payment: Please send or bring check or money order to: Walt Whitman Arts Center Prevalett Workshop 2nd and Cooper Streets Camden, NJ 08102 856-964-8300 Check our website:www.waltwhitmancenter.org for more details, directions, and upcoming events Kristin Prevallet is a poet, most recently the author of Scratch Sides: Poetry, Documentation, and Image-Text Projects (Skanky Possum Press, 2002). Her creative and critical writing has appeared in numerous publications including Poets & Writers, Fence, Chain, Jacket, The Chicago Review, and the recent anthology Telling it Slant: Avant-garde Poetics of the 1990s. She teaches creative writing and poetics at Pratt Institute in Brooklyn, NY. Alicia Askenase Literary Program Director ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 07:55:04 -0700 Reply-To: chax@theriver.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: charles alexander Subject: bromige book MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Order and read a great book today! Celebrate a birthday, too! David Bromige, As in T As in Tether Chax Press 2002 $16 Respond to this order and mention that this is where you found it and you will receive free shipping (in domestic U.S.A., via postal service, book rate) and handling. Send orders directly to Chax Press at 101 W. Sixth St., Tucson, AZ 85701-1000. Order and payment only by mail (check or cash), please, although you can send us an email to reserve a copy of the book. In addition, if you take advantage of this order, you can also buy another great book, Prospect of Release, by Tom Mandel, for just $7 (retail price: $12.95). Shipping and handling on both books, to U.S. domestic destinations, via book rate, is free with this offer. Preface to David Bromige's As in T As in Tether, by Robert Grenier: For David Bromige From Dream-time forward (long ago) there’s been desire to free oneself from all and sundray ‘constraints’ of what those most dear to one all around ‘want & expect me to do’ – I WON’T! Why? Because elsewise, I MUST DIE! (& they die, too – although, particularly here, they don’t know it – they don’t know they depend on ME! – to destroy us!) Hard to do, without rewriting the language itself down to its BONES/CRACKS/GRIMACES/SLIPPAGES/WELTS – BECAUSE IT”S STUPID AND WRONG! – tiger writhing in its chains (skin), like figure of Robert T.S. Lowell (on cover of Life Studies) in life, except worse (D.B. himself makes them up, bounds, then sets out to destroy them, by using ‘them’ against themselves) (agent of the English language itself?) – all in the name of a possible human life (“the metamorphoses of many organs show what wonderful changes in function are at least possible” – Darwin), e.g. in Sebastopol – which he herein demonstrates (as in “ ‘T’ as in ‘Tethered’”) – with more sense/result and good humor than that other Hippocratic gallstone/sticker fellow Tristam-Gulliver-Beckett-Quixote-Lawrence-Alec Guinness?, I don’t know. (D.B. lives in part to ‘poke fun’ at figure of Alec Guinness in Bridge On The River Kwai.) So the ‘New World’ is another writing in words – at least potentially – though these words must (equally) now be attacked as FALSE from Day One (and true). Like being in jail, except – through the ‘glissement des signes’ (‘play’ of languages) – something? How this GOOD WRITING changes the oncoming catastrophe, I’m not sure (can’t say). Doesn’t ‘profit them’ to grille me! A sheaf of fresh red-brown white-washed (‘Norwegian’) hair & beard grizzled eyeing you quizzically blue-eyed affectionately lang-po death-of-the-author freethinking people declare yourself – an off-rhyme – working class, germane to the situation, to wit – a box (why not, you put it together?) – you make it yourself, then walk round inside it! (it is ‘The World’!) – you revile the box, & spit upon it! ! – with a lyrical instinct wont to destroy the Avant Garde along with it – un grand <> des grizzled (signatures) signes – results in (both) a certain dissatisfaction with humans (& the ‘world’) & yet (well-established/superior/separate) says what it is, anyway, for it. How else could it be ‘better represented’? As much the face as the sink! A serious poet, after all these years of seeming fun! What words do, each does – how to begin to ‘see through’ their ‘fundamental undertaking’ ? ? It is a (seeming) prison one flees – Life Itself – by Imagination (spellbound) returned to and enacted (anewed). Robert Grenier (November 11-12/98) *Sunlight falls on one decision, leaving shadow for another, the ground of all identity. A moment alters; stars chain into form. A word brings on evening.* *Tom Mandel, from /Prospect of Release/* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 11:05:13 -0500 Reply-To: "Patrick F. Durgin" Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Patrick F. Durgin" Subject: Internet Sales Ranking & small press poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is an interesting but frustrating discussion - When I produced the = audio edition of Kenning, I had to press 1000 copies of the double-CD = package. In an effort to widen the "market" for such things, I offered = the CD through Amazon. They ordered exactly two copies, both of which = remain in a warehouse someplace, and hence it has NO sales ranking. If = I'd have sold a total of 100 copies (via any various means) I'd have = made my money back (excluding grants received, etc). http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000069BJ1/qid%3D1035298605/sr%3D1= 1-1/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F1/103-3349876-3150255 I don't reckon any small or mirco press publisher believes they'll make = a profit or sell out of their print run - or, depends on such lucky = occurrences. On the other hand, breaking even would be nice, and would = allow someone like me to stay on a regular production schedule. I = always said I'd rather have a handful of careful and otherwise = 'invested' readers / listeners for Kenning, but sales flat-out begin to = matter when it comes to projects such as this, which, seem to warrant = the 3-4000 dollars that go into their manufacture and distribution. On = the other hand, those who've received a review copy or been given a free = copy from a contributor etc have been eager to express their = appreciation ...=20 I did read somewhere that Jewel has apparently outsold Whitman. Patrick F. Durgin Kent, Your guess, about the downloadable Adobe titles being ranked separately in comparison only to Adobe sales, is an intelligent one that hadn't occured to me. Despite the phenomenal ---anomalous?--- surprise of Silliman's Amazon Adobe ranking, I didn't explore any of the questions that that list raised, though they were numerous. Amazon is very unforthcoming with on-line clarification about the rankings; what I quoted at the bottom of my post is the whole of what they provide, as far as I could find under Help: "The calculation is based on Amazon.com sales and is updated regularly. The top 10,000 best sellers are updated each hour to reflect sales in the preceding 24 hours. The next 100,000 are updated daily. The rest of the list is updated monthly, based on several different factors." The key lies shrouded somewhere in that cryptic "several different factors." There seems to be some sort of additional time factor, I think. Ashbery, for example, outsells himself by 6,670 (~Chinese Whispers~) to 825,229 (~Your Name Here~), which seems strangely implausible. There are other, unlikely contradictions even within the small press, equally recent titles: Gordon/Sullivan's ~Swoon~ (689,659) outranks Gordon/Sullivan's ~Are Not Our Lowing Heifers~ (1,610,791) ~by a million!~ Shouldn't it be assumed, too, that since there's a third time line of new titles constantly being added, that the heap is larger at the top (a downward pyramid shape), so that the rankings are weighted by the chronology of their publication, the older titles experiencing the least "competition"? Most of the 10,000 - 100,000 rankings ("updated daily"), such as T.S. Eliot's or O'Hara's ~Collected,~ despite the exceptional fame of those poets, would seem to be stagnant sales, in my opinion, as they're outdated (O'Hara: 1995; the Eliot: 1963!?) and, in a sense from a 2002 sales perspective, their hour has passed. That is, titles published at a time when money was freer or on-line book-buying enjoyed a greater vogue would maintain ~a permanent advantage~ over rankings from lean years. Caveat, too, that the rankings cannot be exactly equated with number of copies sold (you: "that way AY beats John Ashbery's Selected"--- although I think his Selected, in particular, would have greatly undersold any of his ongoing titles, as he's the kind of poet whose audience follows on a title by title basis [I, for example, never bought the Selected])). Bok's ~Eunoia,~ which ranks as Amazon 52,500, was reported by its publisher, Coach House, to have sold 11,000 copies. A few years ago, when I managed to seduce out of one of Ashbery's publishers an admission about his print run, I was told around 4,000 copies per title/edition (!). Can Mullen's ~Sleeping With The Dictionary,~ at that date before the National Book Award news, be presumed to have had a print run much greater than the small press standard 1000 or so for such a title? IMPORTANTLY, too: If you look at something like Olson's ~Maximus,~ (219,051) which I would guess enjoys virtually ~no~ sales anymore (the same, forlorn single copy in the Manhattan Upper West Side Barnes & Noble has been sitting on the shelves for ~years~), at some point in the rankings very quickly the sales probably withers away to dozens ~or less.~ The list probably, in fact, includes *ZERO* sales, after a reasonably early point! (Would there be any reason for Brad Gooch's 1994 out-of-print limited availability ~City Poet~ [821,381] to be selling anymore? How many copies of Giorgio De Chirico's novel, ~Hebdomeros,~ published in 1993, could possibly be selling in 2002?--- but the ranking is [a ~high~] 274,131.) . . . where the difference in ranking would reflect only that *the Z,000,000th title was added as a ~potential~ ISBN one million many titles after the Y,000,000th title.* Also, unknown is how Amazon's "Used & New" sales option figures in: "Used & New" can get the buyer ~Maximus~ for $2.31. The ranking doesn't differentiate between what prices the title could've been bought at, and its effect. As you can see from the dollar signs that are still floating around in that list, I was at first curious how cost might correlate with ranking, . . . but, for one afternoon's amusement, it all soon proved too baffling. The two titles that originally interested Gary Sullivan, for example, ~Aloud~ and the Norton ~Post-Modern Poetry,~ compare at $12.98/$9.02 (list price/Used & New) versus $18.87/$13.50 (as I recall, the latter was higher back on the day that I made the list: their discounting also happens at some unexplained rate),--- so that, assuming Amazon shoppers to be by the very nature of the medium price-conscious, that would have a leveling effect on the differences in rankings or "poetic value". An interesting on-line bookseller to compare is Barnes & Noble: whereas I can't figure out how to get Amazon to show their poetry bestsellers sequentially beyond the 25th title, Barnes & Noble allows you to review their poetry bestsellers up to the 2,876th. http://browse.barnesandnoble.com/controller?visgrp=3Dfiction&slinkprefix=3D= userid%3D6QTFY3QO2N&n=3D343517&g=3D343517+343516&sid=3DD6563DB4BF0E&act=3D= M1 On first glance, they seem to sell less poetry (that is, more non-poetry than poetry), but, by comparative rankings, the logic is a conundrum: there, Billy Collins' ~Nine Horses~ (1,002 on Amazon) is their 243rd; Creeley's ~Best American Poetry~ (2,583 on Amazon) is 31,289; . . . But a Joe Ceravolo title is 2698th! and $70.00 price tags are not enough to dissuade buyers from turning Jean Froissart's ~Prison Amoureuse~ and ~The Songs of the Women Troubadours~ into 1896th and 1897th. The 1982 720 pp. Oxford ~Godfrey of Bulloigne: A Critical Edition of Edward Fairfax's Translation of Tasso's Gerusalemme Liberata, together with Fairfax's Original Poems~ (not even listed on Amazon) is poetry # 1091! (which I guess means a single section of an obscure university course is enough to outsell thousands of poetry titles?) Could, for example, Amazon's last 1,000,000th titles or some range of it consist ~only~ of poetry titles, which "do not sell"?! There's Amazon # 65,971, for example, Jorie Graham's ~Dream of a Unified Field,~ which the Buffalo Poetics List Post under http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=3Dind9703&L=3Dpoetics&P=3D= R12027&I=3D-3 quotes Publishers Weekly as selling 8,500 copies; but the book ~Poetry Like Bread,~ which the same source claims sold 9,000 copies, comes in as Amazon # 310,638 (a difference of 500 copies would translate into an inverse rankings difference of around 250,000??). Etc.: Incommunicado Press' rock poetry ~Any Rough Times Are Now Behind You,~ at 5,000 copies, is Amazon # 190,379. So, these sources do not dependably corroborate each other. (I suspect fudging in the publishers' reported sales figures: aren't they really using those reports as a form of advertising to increase future sales?) Jewel's legendary ~A Night Without Armor,~ which "sold for a reported $1 million", ranks 7,481 on Amazon. (http://www.pw.org/mag/newsparker0901.htm) Paul McCartney's ~Blackbird Singing,~ (Amazon 7,627 in hardcover, 29,504 in soft) was estimated to have sold approximately *3,750* copies in its first year, last year (same source as above). In posting that list, which was very casually done off the top of my head, what I hoped would show was what I saw in its details: that it contradicts itself and is statistically a very peculiar and unfathomable indicator (certainly not of "poetic value"). One of the problems is that, without plugging in a host of non-poetry titles that I can't even think of since my interests are so narrow (---under Outdoor Cooking books, ~Weber's Big Book of Grilling~ is # 1,667! or, under *Canning & Preserving* titles, ~The Joy of Pickling: 200 Flavor-Packed Recipes for All Kinds of Produce from Garden or Market~ is 28,286!---), into the gaps between one poetry ranking and the next, there's no way of telling quite what those rankings represent in the full library of what we might consider viable reading. (I can't even seem, intentionally, to ~drive~ the Browse Subjects feature low enough to reflect how infinitesimal the poetry rankings are: under Craft and Hobbies [*Applique*], ~Better Homes and Gardens 501 Quilt Blocks: A Treasury of Patterns for Patchwork and Applique~ is Amazon # 8,281! and, under Lace & Tatting, even ~Terrific Tassels & Fabulous Fringe~ is # 76,511!!) ...Nice hearing from you. Sorry if I was gruff at your snideness about Saussure and the Saturnian poets a while back. I've been surprised, now that the more "liberal" List policies let Gabriel Gudding squeak through Homeland Security, that you yourself haven't re-enlisted (unless you already have under a different name, heh heh heh, and just found the climate too terribly changed). I look forward to reading your Greek thing. My best to Ammonides and that rock band kid of his. Jeffrey --- KENT JOHNSON wrote: > Hello Jeffrey, > > Say, I just saw your post on the sale rankings at > Amazon, and > since you didn't include Yasusada's Doubled > Flowering in the long > list, I went to Amazon and checked the ranking for > the Adobe > download version. It's 6,496, which puts it right > behind Maya > Angelou's Collected Poems, and ahead of any other > "avant-garde" > book, I believe, except Ron Silliman's N/O Adobe, > which you peg > at 2000-something, which is pretty amazing, if that > figure is for all 3 > million plus books at amazon. But do you know: Are > the rankings > for the Adobe books *just* for the Adobe books or is > it against the > whole 3 million, or whatever the number is? I'm just > curious, since if > it's the latter, that would seem to represent a fair > number of people > downloading the cheap five buck file. > > Well, so I hope it's the latter, since that way AY > beats John > Ashbery's Selected. Not that that matters all that > much. > > Always enjoy your posts at Buffalo when I check in > and rummage > around. With Sullivan, Davis, a few others, yours > are always the > most interesting. > > best, > > Kent ------------ http://www.buffalo.edu/~pdurgin ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 08:47:27 -0800 Reply-To: arshile@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Salerno Organization: Arshile: A Magazine of the Arts Subject: Shameless Self-Promotion Compounded With Mercenary Careerism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Colleagues: My new book, entitled "Method," will be published in December 2002. Since my publisher is counting on the profits from the sale of this book to take his wife out for what he calls "a swell time at Dunkin' Donuts," it is incumbent upon me to do something to promote the work. If anyone knows of reading venues around the country that would offer safe harbor (and a no-nonsense honorarium) to a vagabond visiting poet, I'd be grateful to hear from you. More information about myself and/or the book by back channel. Thanks. Mark Salerno ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 08:51:44 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Arielle Greenberg Subject: int'l poetry cultures (was Report from Czech Republic Poetry Festival) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I find this very useful to know, how other cultures react to their writers and to poetry in general. I know that when I lived in Israel in the late 80s, celebrity as a whole was on a much smaller scale--there was not so much class difference then, so it was likely that the nation's biggest pop star lived in the same apt building you did. And they definitely revere their poets and writers, although this was mostly true of the patriotic poets associated with Israel's founding--I was too young at the time to really know if there was a flourishing scene of younger writers. Arielle --- paula speck wrote: > > So there's a price to be paid for living in the > richest, most culturally > dominent nation in the world. Other social and > cultural currents are > operating as well, of course, but I really think > that what I just described > is a big part of it. Do listees in far corners of > the world agree? > > Paula Speck > (currently in Washington, D.C.) > > > > > > >From: Andrew Rathmann > >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group > > >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >Subject: Re: Report from Czech Republic Poetry > Festival > >Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 21:42:51 -0800 > > > >Thanks for the update, Sylvester. To what do you > attribute their > >enthusiasm (I mean, beyond the inherent interest of > the poets)? I suppose > >it's the American illiteracy and indifference that > really need to be > >explained, but can you hazard a conjecture about > why conditions seem better > >there? > > > >Does it partly reflect a European government's > commitment to funding such > >things? Is it something in Czech beer? > > > >Andy > > > > > >Where the humility, humiliation really, comes in is > > >in realizing that we live in a society that cares > very little to not at > >all > > >about what we do, and that in other societies > this is not necessarily > >the > > >case. To walk through Mahlerova (Mahler Street) > to the theatre where he > >was > > >orchestra director, to learn that Mozart > wrote/premiered his 6th symphony > > >in a cathedral there (at age 11), to see posters > & banners all over the > > >city promoting a poetry festival, and to see all > events standing room > >only, > > >with enthusiastic audiences of young and old, to > see full press coverage, > > >just extraordinary. There's a whole world out > there! People who read! > > >Sylvester > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Unlimited Internet access -- and 2 months free! Try > MSN. > http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/2monthsfree.asp __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 10:52:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: appropriate scale | print on demand | where are the bookfairs? In-Reply-To: <20021022053913.7704.qmail@web40802.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v543) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I don't reckon any small or mirco press publisher believes they'll > make a profit or sell out of their print run - or, depends on such > lucky occurrences. > Patrick F. Durgin one of the intrinsic beauties to print on demand is that once you get some titles up & going you can make the whole thing stay in the black, because yr print costs after an initial edition are based on sales & demand rather than imagined audience. & I must say that thinking of editioning thousands of copies (Im speaking in general, not specifically to patrick's project) for the kind of work that we are talking about here seems grandiose & Id like to suggest based on 20 yrs of publisher/bookmaking experience that the numbers are "usually" much more realistically in the 100-500 range. I learned quite early that closets full of books waiting to be sold does little more than reinforce materialistic concepts of what it means to "publish" a book. in this model the publisher is also bookmaker, a decided good thing. it puts the maker in touch with materials, paper, ink, copiers & presses, binding & in the age of mass-production creates value-added products whose spirit/uniqueness is impossible to duplicate with "give the printer a big check, get boxes of glossy perfect bounds in return" style of printing. also, realistically, these kinds of larger numbers & ideal imagined readers is a much tighter & more economical fit with various modes of web publishing. html books, pdf books, etc. thoughtfully done online, they can take on a life of their own & infect their own subset of readers. one of the real questions is since much of this kind of literature is affixed to university affiliation, why arent the universities working to enact distribution models that supports micro publishers... to some extent there are a number of archives, but BOOK FAIRS have for some reason been erased from the small press topology, & realistically university settings are the only places that have the kind of resources to create & bring these kind of events together. in the 80s there was seemingly an active network of such events, east coast, midcoast, west coast which did much to build an excitement of community of readers & writers/artists. mIEKAL aND memexikon@mwt.net | ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 12:00:05 -0400 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: conservative... i'd take a quick look at the Later/Older Frost and Kerouac .....in another context...Basil Bunting was decidedly Anti-Communist...after working in Perisia/Iran...it's an interesting question..with a hard answer given how 'getting-along'...or 'fellow-travelling' the po scene is....remember well all the Po Instutitions from Church to Grant are union left job halls.....if anti-affirmative action is the song on the juke box....play on...DRn... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 09:22:27 -0700 Reply-To: Lanny Quarles Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lanny Quarles Subject: N/L-MINIAPPLET_siva | panini ::=apsara | vya:karana Comments: To: WRYTING-L@listserv.utoronto.ca, "chris@trnsnd" , Aaron Jones Comments: cc: list@rhizome.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable (natural language mini-applet in homage to panini)=20 caution: buggy code may not work on some meme-servers... ie poemy = protocols.. siva | panini ::=3Dapsara | vya:karana it is said he was born to the beating of the bumhi-dundhubi, the giant = earth-drum it is said he played chaturanga as a baby with mighty siva see how these pieces dance said siva see the rules of their undulations, the methods of their hips these pieces are the tongues of the devavani hear their 4000 transformations across the strata,=20 hear how in time, a rhythm embosses all meta-rules a rhythm whose observance is a foci, a lens of reason in time others will taste of this somastadhyayi and the pieces of the chaturanga will dance right off the board dance with the freedom of perfection some Panini links: http://www.infinityfoundation.com/mandala/t_es/t_es_rao-t_syntax.htm http://www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Mathematicians/Panini.html http://uncouplingthecopula.freewebspace.com/panini.htm http://acl.ldc.upenn.edu/J/J95/J95-3006.pdf http://www.infinityfoundation.com/mandala/h_es/Indian_Roots_Modern_Lingui= stics.pdf http://www.cla.sc.edu/LING/faculty/dubinsky/Ling739/Discussion/Indian-lx-= questions.html http://www.geocities.com/narenp/history/info/people.htm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 12:27:23 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ontological Subject: Ontological Mailing List In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit RICHARD FOREMAN'S ONTOLOGICAL-HYSTERIC THEATRE For thirty-five years, Richard Foreman has been a pioneer in the world of Avant-Garde theatre. He is the winner of nine Obie awards and the recepient of the Pen/ Laura Master American Playwright Award. Every year Richard Foreman produces a new, groundbreaking work in the Ontological-Hysteric Theatre located in St. Marks Church. Now we are trying to expand our audience outreach using email. We will be posting information about Richard's shows, other performances in the Ontological, and special events using this Post. You may direct any inquiries you may have about our theatre to Joshua Briggs at Ontological@mindspring.com. I am happy to answer any questions or discuss the work happening here. You may also call at (212) 420-1916 and visit our website at www.ontological.com. The site is currently being renovated, so please check back often to see the new images, sounds and information that we have posted about the Ontological Theatre. You can also learn more about Richard's theatre by visiting http://www.ubu.com/feature/sound/feature_foreman.html. Thank you so much for your time. Sincerely, Joshua Briggs Production Manager Ontological-Hysteric Theatre ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 10:01:22 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: POG reading this Saturday Oct 26, 7 pm: poets Martin Corless-Smith & Tenney Nathanson Comments: To: Tenney Nathanson MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit POG presents poets Martin Corless-Smith and Tenney Nathanson Saturday, October 26, 7pm Orts Theatre of Dance, 121 East 7th Street Admission: $5; Students $3 Martin Corless-Smith is the author of Of Piscator (U of Georgia) and Complete Travels (West House Books), as well as the chapbooks Lives of the Poets: A Preliminary Count (Ispress), A Selection of the Work of Thomas Swan (with Alan Halsey) (West House Books), The Garden: A Theophany of ECCOHOME, a Dialectical Lyric (Spectacular Books), and On the Nature of Things (811 Press). He teaches creative writing at Boise State University. Online materials by or about Corless-Smith include: an interview in README at http://home.jps.net/~nada/issuefour.htm a review of COMPLETE TRAVELS in Jacket Magazine, at http://jacketmagazine.com/12/corl-by-kenn.html a poem in manuscript at http://www.wordforword.info/vol1/volume1/Corless-Smith.htm Tenney Nathanson is the author of the chapbooks The Book of Death (Membrane Press) and One Block Over (Chax Press) and of the forthcoming collection Erased Art (Chax Press). His published criticism includes Whitman’s Presence (NYU Press). Nathanson teaches American poetry at the University of Arizona and is a founding member of POG. He’ll be reading from a nearly completed book-length poem in progress, Home on the Range. For samples of Nathanson’s work online you can go to: · http://www.gopog.org/poemmonth.html · http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/rift/rift03/nath0301.html · http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/rift/rift05/nath0501.html POG events are sponsored in part by grants from the Tucson/Pima Arts Council, the Arizona Commission on the Arts, and the National Endowment for the Arts. POG also benefits from the continuing support of The University of Arizona Poetry Center, the Arizona Quarterly, Chax Press, and The University of Arizona Department of English. We also thank the following POG donors: Patrons Roberta Howard and Austin Publicover; Sponsors Barbara Allen, Chax Press, and Stefanie Marlis. for further information contact POG: (520)-296-6416 mailto:pog@gopog.org or visit us on the web at www.gopog.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 10:06:44 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: appropriate scale | print on demand | where are the bookfairs? Comments: To: mIEKAL aND Comments: cc: Hilton Obenzinger In-Reply-To: <4BE3CDC9-E5D6-11D6-AEAA-0003935A5BDA@mwt.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Yes, Miekal, thanks for taking the time to think this through. Small Press Distribution - to whom I should direct this directly - may do well(if it has not) to engage a print-on-demand model for its publishers as a way for publishers to limit expenses entailed in doing expensive runs that primarily produce inventory, as well as a great way to keep books in print. SPD's established web presence - with its identity framed around poetry and innovative thought in most media - does and will give publishers a home, a piece of turf, a visible "go to island" quite different than floating and most often drowning in the Amazon slough (though it does not rule out Amazon access to SPD listings.) What, however, is your experience of what is either lost or - to put it another way - within the print-on-demand frame, how does a publisher maintain a design aesthetic and production value. I guess a concern would be that print-on-demand creates a monolithic look and feel (same paper and cover stock, same tone to the inking, etc.) Locally, for a few examples, it's nice to see the design separateness of AVEC, APOGEE, and ATELOS - where you really get a book and/or series that declares itself as distinct from each other and other presses. An apprehension here - in the I-universe print-on-demand model - of coming up with visual mush - books without legs, arms, seduction or punch - where production efficiency ironically ends up being a means of linguisitic repression, or, at least, a sad limitation. On your second point, If SPD had the resources (including funding partners) and an indefatigable impresario, they would also be an ideal Book Fair/Poetry/Fiction Festival Venue (say in the early Fall here in the Bay Area). In addition to bringing books to light, such could include readings, lectures, dance party etc. A Festival as a way to break away from life on the monitor into tangible goods, visible, breathing, talking people, including strangers - as well as meeting poets and other publishers- and even selling a few books! A Conference of all souls! Stephen Vincent on 10/22/02 8:52 AM, mIEKAL aND at dtv@MWT.NET wrote: >> >> I don't reckon any small or mirco press publisher believes they'll >> make a profit or sell out of their print run - or, depends on such >> lucky occurrences. > >> Patrick F. Durgin > > one of the intrinsic beauties to print on demand is that once you get > some titles up & going you can make the whole thing stay in the black, > because yr print costs after an initial edition are based on sales & > demand rather than imagined audience. & I must say that thinking of > editioning thousands of copies (Im speaking in general, not > specifically to patrick's project) for the kind of work that we are > talking about here seems grandiose & Id like to suggest based on 20 yrs > of publisher/bookmaking experience that the numbers are "usually" much > more realistically in the 100-500 range. I learned quite early that > closets full of books waiting to be sold does little more than > reinforce materialistic concepts of what it means to "publish" a book. > > in this model the publisher is also bookmaker, a decided good thing. > it puts the maker in touch with materials, paper, ink, copiers & > presses, binding & in the age of mass-production creates value-added > products whose spirit/uniqueness is impossible to duplicate with "give > the printer a big check, get boxes of glossy perfect bounds in return" > style of printing. > > also, realistically, these kinds of larger numbers & ideal imagined > readers is a much tighter & more economical fit with various modes of > web publishing. html books, pdf books, etc. thoughtfully done online, > they can take on a life of their own & infect their own subset of > readers. > > > one of the real questions is since much of this kind of literature is > affixed to university affiliation, why arent the universities working > to enact distribution models that supports micro publishers... to some > extent there are a number of archives, but BOOK FAIRS have for some > reason been erased from the small press topology, & realistically > university settings are the only places that have the kind of resources > to create & bring these kind of events together. in the 80s there was > seemingly an active network of such events, east coast, midcoast, west > coast which did much to build an excitement of community of readers & > writers/artists. > > > > > mIEKAL aND > memexikon@mwt.net > | ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 13:39:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: Re: Shameless Self-Promotion Compounded With Mercenary Careerism Comments: To: arshile@earthlink.net In-Reply-To: <3DB58114.390568E9@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Mark Salerno wrote: If anyone knows of reading venues around the country that would offer safe harbor (and a no-nonsense honorarium) to a vagabond visiting poet, I'd be grateful to hear from you.> I Reply in support of this worthy cause: _Method_ should be on every bookshelf. For a glimpse of the sort of poetry it contains, I'm reposting a poem I sent in last month. It's from Mark Salerno's chapbook titled "Matters", which is a stylistic follow up to his amazing, antic, _Method_. -------------------------------------------- For Everyday Use What matters most there's your rumpus delicate simple wedge of winter light some sea greens are building contrast as the man in the orange suit directs traffic in lost doubloons gold slots this prison cell my lime tree bower wherein the prelude becomes the power O blimey the air is a memory of air or how else to say it she wore a teal cotton jersey she had small white hands and finally we could see the underside of leaves if only to stay the day as subject in the ongoing vocabulary of telling. --------------------------------------------- One of the things I admire about this poem is how well I find it aware of itself thinking as it goes. How, after the "lime tree bower" / "prelude" bit, we get "O blimey the air is a memory of air". I find this playful, antic, and fundamentally true to the totality of experience. I feel a little corner of the being of the world as revealed itself here. And, as such, we all join "the ongoing vocabulary of telling." True-ly. --JG ------------------------------ JGallaher "How has the human spirit ever survived the terrific literature with which it has had to contend?" --Wallace Stevens ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 15:01:41 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: poem Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Command and Control Happy to recall your slight Fidgets and dickteases As an eloquent and Slutty alternative Our boys have vanished to be replaced by the Most concerned objects God save Johnny Cash, if there is a god who might save us if god wanted to save Can I digress to your affectionate Rubs and duties, which Throw me into the most Dangerous of disorders, the ones that sever your Joy Whatever satisfies these Endeavors, however taunting with all her weird Sisters, plugged in to albino heartstrings and the Toughest of attitude adjustments Benchpress those smokiest of Needs It's fucking *Contagious* across this bartop in an Unstoppable and blurry Way Put an X across every Chest you meet and sneeze out to the Beat Smile toward unreasonable Fixtures their virulent mixtures and Chug, tempted by experience and Blue flame _________________________________________________________________ Surf the Web without missing calls! Get MSN Broadband. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 15:07:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jane Sprague Subject: Re: int'l poetry cultures (was Report from Czech Republic Poetry Festival) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sylvester, Paula, Arielle, Andy, listers, The Taos Poetry Circus is an annual event of poetry, performance, = workshops, open readings and the confluence of poets from diverse = backgrounds. The Circus events take place in bars, cafes, conference = centers and at UNM. Poets this year included: John Balaban reading in = Vietnamese and English from a new book of translation- _Spring Rain_ , = Anselm Hollo, Andrei Codrescu, Sekou Sundiata, Saul Williams, Juan = Felipe Herrera, and Ntozake Shange. Feature poets from previous years = include: Anne Waldman, Quincy Troupe, Simon Ortiz, Victor Hernandez = Cruz, and Jimmy Santiago Baca.=20 The Circus draws approximately 2,000 people for the final event and is = well attended throughout. While it may not have the polished look (in = terms of banners and posters) of a state funded arts event, it was well = promoted and the audience was diverse. The Circus begins at Taos Pueblo. = Poems were performed or read in Spanish, Tewa, Tiwa, English, = Vietnamese, with some Quechua and Nahuatl in the verbal mix. It is not = uncommon for some of the featured poets to attend the open readings and = read from their work as well. These are informal gatherings at a = coffeehouse where people read and listen. They occur daily and are an = integral part of the Circus. Additionally, there is daily discourse on language: rules of language, = poetic language(s), performance aspects/limitations of and the = extinction of languages- there is an Institute in Santa Fe with the = sole mission of language preservation...many of the Native American = languages are disappearing at an alarming rate, as well as many others = in our "global culture." While it may not be "far-flung", there is evidence of readers, writers, = audience members, and an abbreviated representation of state support for = the arts (the WPBA runs the Circus, grant funding is an essential = component of their survival) in New Mexico. Peter Rabbit (Black = Mountain) is one of the founders of the WPBA. It may be important to = consider that Taos is perhaps culturally distinct from other places on = the continent- given the presence of Taos Pueblo and the mingling of = Native, Anglo and Spanish cultures that has been happening in the SW for = several hundred years.=20 People all over Taos know about the Circus, attend events and greet = Circus attendees with smiles and the query: are you a poet? -Jane ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 15:11:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: poem Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed SUNY Poltergeist Broker your way Past inhibitions, fellas All gathered to sorely trample, but Within we dis the naked truth If you take this for Fact, there's bridges and Volvos to sample Luxuriate in smooth armpits and Metropolitan laps to The mildest of salsas, I'll claim it All for you, call shotgun on Reflex I ain't fooling, we'll Fight the boundaries and pick on weak Neighbors Whether indigo or Resolved we went out there, it was all cumbaya But without Clues, wherefore the Blues? No matter how pretty She is, someone Somewhere is sick of her shit But thx for getting her *drunk* Says the Smartest graffiti yet New dolphins approve of Plastics and of fumes In these associations and Faint bar light we relish in Indecisions, their inconstant simmerings will not forever Boil _________________________________________________________________ Surf the Web without missing calls! Get MSN Broadband. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 12:47:40 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: politically conservative poets in the U.S. since 1950? In-Reply-To: <3DC01791@webmail3> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Well, "conservative" and "liberal" and "leftist" have peculiar meanings in the USA. From outside it is hard to see the difference between your two parties, both of which would be seen as well to the right in most democracies. -- George Bowering Per ardua ad astra. Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 06:11:11 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: komninos zervos Subject: Re: politically conservative poets in the U.S. since 1950? In-Reply-To: <3DC01791@webmail3> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-7E16A2; boundary="=======6EB6161=======" --=======6EB6161======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-7E16A2; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit in australia, les a murray was one of the few poets not to oppose australia;'s military involvement in vietnam in the 60s and 70s, and a literary magazine, quadrant, received funding from the CIA. komninos At 10:56 PM 22/10/02, you wrote: >A student in my Experience of Poetry class asked me an interesting question >the other day. His reasons for asking the question aren't interesting, but I >thought the question was: > >"Aren't there any political conservative poets in the U.S.?" > >Now, let's say that what he means, in this instance, by conservative is a >fairly conventional U.S. definition--someone who votes for the Republican >Party. So I don't mean to include here poets who from the perspective of the >political and aesthetic radicals on this list (you know who you, uh, we, are) >might be called conservative because they don't like language poetry or write >conventional MFA narrative verse--those people, in my experience, may be >pro-capitalist Democrats, but they're never Republicans. They're mainstream, >but not conservative. > >I'd also like to exclude from the last certain right wing radicals like, say, >Pound, who whatever the confusion in his fascism and Jeffersonian democracy >was never, as far as I know, a Republican. > >So, who does that leave, especially if we talk about poets who came to >prominence in the 1950s and afterwards? Eliot, of the older Modernists, was >still around, but not in the United States. So there's Allen Tate, and >certainly James Dickey, the most prominent conservative poet from the 50s on >that I can think of right now. Other southern poets? William Jay Smith? Robert >Penn Warren I think was a southern Democrat, although probably he still >qualifies as conservative. Who else? Any Northern Republican poets? Even an >aesthetically conservative poet like Thomas McGrath was a long-time communist. >There's Carl Thayler, who Skanky Possum published, and who likes Joe McCarthy >and Calvin Coolidge, but he hardly qualifies as having any prominence. And >what, I wonder, does all this say about poetry in the U.S.? Maybe not much, >maybe something about the relationship between poetry and a market economy? >But for instance, my guess is that there are more politically conservative >poets in Britain, although I don't know for sure. > >Names? Ideas? > >Mark > > >--- >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.404 / Virus Database: 228 - Release Date: 15/10/02 --=======6EB6161======= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-avg=cert; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-7E16A2 Content-Disposition: inline --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.404 / Virus Database: 228 - Release Date: 15/10/02 --=======6EB6161=======-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 21:09:19 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lakey Teasdale Subject: Lily Langtree &/or Hector ProVector. The locus Comments: To: "WRYTING-L : Writing and Theory across Disciplines" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lily Langtree &/or Hector ProVector. The locus Not all the king's horses and men.=20 The titillation, the sieve. Particularisation=20 of instances: Tryoutajuxtaposition for size.=20 &/or an archdiaconal supposition. For starters. The impossible. Truly impossible.=20 Scheme towards diminishing=20 ac-com-mo-da-tion.=20 Shoulder your recommendations and just=20 Think of these old tunes, for example: Hunting the Snipers, &/or Lily Langtree,=20 Lucy Brown. Watcha=20 gonna do, rent comes=20 round?=20 And all for cash. All for the tender=20 consideration of: Bailiffs in haste!=20 Writs and a fine, fine execution! Here's an idea!=20 Put a hat on it!=20 Something a little pre-War! A cloche encounter of the other kind kind gentleman.=20 Assuming you can think of which one. Which one? So many disorders! to fill with damned lies.=20 the pontiffs and thieves.=20 not to mention sublime.=20 Oh Hector! ProVector! Your knife! Your knives!=20 Our Fine Lady of Locus. O! Give her a little lucendo.=20 You don't pay the bill/no other other will/and she ain't been a-walkin' for=20 a long, long time.=20 O! roll up your sleeves, sir.=20 Press on! Press on the benches of:=20 you-know. Well. I-know.=20 That rent means dough Landlord's gonna throw us out in the snow. O!=20 Lily Langtree, Lucy Brown.=20 Watcha gonna do When the rent comes around?=20 When. The Rent. Comes. Roooooouuoooooouund.? Found, in part, in Judy Henske's performance of "Lily Langtree"circa = 196? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 13:14:46 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Small Press Traffic Subject: Moriarty & Williams at SPT, Friday 10/25 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Small Press Traffic presents Friday, October 25, 2002 at 7:30 pm Tyrone Williams & Laura Moriarty A key literary figure in the regional and international landscape, Laura Moriarty?s work exists in nearly every established genre, and some not yet established. Her recent books include Nude Memoir (Krupskaya, 2000), a poem Taylor Brady calls "the best crime story you will read this year," The Case (O Books, 2000), Symmetry (Avec, 1998), and the historically adventurous Cunning (Spuyten Duyvil, 1999), a favorite because of its thick, novelly field. Former archivist for the Poetry Center and editor/publisher of non, Moriarty currently works at Small Press Distribution in Berkeley. Tyrone Williams? debut collection of poetry, c.c., is just out from San Francisco?s Krupskaya Publishing Collective. This is a volume which Nathaniel Tarn says "bridges more gaps than many words (and careers) thrice as long...the reference, as craft and time demand, is ever to mother language. This [is] uncommon rapture, a burning repetition of home truths, in resolutely future tense." Williams? work has appeared in Hambone, Callaloo, The Kenyon Review, Artful Dodge, and elsewhere. Williams teaches literature, literary theory and creative writing at Xavier University and recently co-edited a collection of writings by the homeless in Cincinnati. All events are $5-10, sliding scale, unless otherwise noted. Our events are free to SPT members, and CCAC faculty, staff, and students. Unless otherwise noted, our events are presented in Timken Lecture Hall California College of Arts and Crafts 1111 Eighth Street, San Francisco (just off the intersection of 16th & Wisconsin) Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson, Executive Director Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center at CCAC 1111 - 8th Street San Francisco, California 94107 http://www.sptraffic.org 415-551-9278 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 13:54:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: bromige book Comments: To: chax@theriver.com In-Reply-To: <3DB566C8.4090900@theriver.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Charles' (CHAX) parallel discount offer for Tom Mandel's Prospect of Releas= e led me to liberate a little review of the work that somebody - I forget who - somehow failed to publish some several years back. In the interest of liberating/recycling/regenerating the dormant file and putting it back to work in service in what I thought was a strong book, I add: Let it be said PROSPECT FOR RELEASE is astonishingly good. Sonnets, 50 consecutive, interwoven works construct an elegy on the death of a parent. Each sonnet is driven forward into the next by a Talmudic insistence. There are strict laws (or codes?) =AD I am assuming - to the commands of ritual for the dead and no sentiment will divert from the instruction in which "release", release of the mourned one, the "absent" one, is the sole objective. Relentless, one might almost say ruthlessly patriarchal, each sonnet stays right on the threshold between "presence" an= d "absence" and, in the process, provides instruction and interpretation, to he - in this case - who mourns: For thirty days after death offer consolation but do not ask the mourner how he feels. Until twelve months have pass, ask and offer. After a year, no longer mention bereavement. Don't lance his healed wound, or cure her of a sickness that's past. (Page 19) In the context of an elegy -- what I take as quite novel -- is an almost total effacement of particulars. We learn nada in the way of facts, the remembered content of the loved one's life. Instead we watch/hear the authorial voice submit, grieve and struggle to become articulate in the sudden void. The suffering, the terror is palpable: Although he gave me his pasture -- where this means the benefit of his advice, amusement, and bemusement at my values, love of them and of me -- he cannot give me his grave -- Bravely, through a severity of a means, the poems rarely indulge in contemporary metaphor. Rather these sonnets struggle to hear, interpret and serve the depth of an archaic calling: ...I prefer baked cake to a handful of wheat, for nothing is known without interpretation. Unarticulated, a letter absorbs death, binds us end to end, whereby the past avoids the present. (Page 32) As a literature must =AD as different from a personal memory =AD the void, the absence fully realized, transfigures into the larger communal presence, a grievance familiar, and here, courageously sustained, marvelously transformed: One whom I thought abandoned me returned. Another I asked to stay must leave. From you I learn better and now know why each mind must bend, but only to its task, soul dancing at the prospect of release. (Page 58) In risking the strictest of archaic means - Talmudic code within the formal restraints of the sonnet -- Mandel's work ironically achieves a quite moving, chillingly sober, contemporary power and resonance. Stephen Vincent & Happy Birthday David B! on 10/22/02 7:55 AM, charles alexander at chax@THERIVER.COM wrote: > Order and read a great book today! Celebrate a birthday, too! >=20 > David Bromige, As in T As in Tether > Chax Press 2002 >=20 > $16 >=20 > Respond to this order and mention that this is where you found it and > you will receive free shipping (in domestic U.S.A., via postal service, > book rate) and handling. Send orders directly to Chax Press at 101 W. > Sixth St., Tucson, AZ 85701-1000. Order and payment only by mail (check > or cash), please, although you can send us an email to reserve a copy of > the book. >=20 > In addition, if you take advantage of this order, you can also buy > another great book, Prospect of Release, by Tom Mandel, for just $7 > (retail price: $12.95). Shipping and handling on both books, to U.S. > domestic destinations, via book rate, is free with this offer. >=20 > Preface to David Bromige's As in T As in Tether, by Robert Grenier: >=20 > For David Bromige >=20 > From Dream-time forward (long ago) there=B9s been desire to free > oneself from all and sundray =8Cconstraints=B9 of what those most dear > to one all around =8Cwant & expect me to do=B9 =AD I WON=B9T! Why? Because > elsewise, I MUST DIE! (& they die, too =AD although, particularly > here, they don=B9t know it =AD they don=B9t know they depend on ME! =AD to > destroy us!) Hard to do, without rewriting the language itself down > to its BONES/CRACKS/GRIMACES/SLIPPAGES/WELTS =AD BECAUSE IT=B2S STUPID > AND WRONG! =AD tiger writhing in its chains (skin), like figure of > Robert T.S. Lowell (on cover of Life Studies) in life, except worse > (D.B. himself makes them up, bounds, then sets out to destroy them, > by using =8Cthem=B9 against themselves) (agent of the English language > itself?) =AD all in the name of a possible human life (=B3the > metamorphoses of many organs show what wonderful changes in function > are at least possible=B2 =AD Darwin), e.g. in Sebastopol =AD which he > herein demonstrates (as in =B3 =8CT=B9 as in =8CTethered=B9=B2) =AD with more > sense/result and good humor than that other Hippocratic > gallstone/sticker fellow > Tristam-Gulliver-Beckett-Quixote-Lawrence-Alec Guinness?, I don=B9t > know. (D.B. lives in part to =8Cpoke fun=B9 at figure of Alec Guinness > in Bridge On The River Kwai.) So the =8CNew World=B9 is another writing > in words =AD at least potentially =AD though these words must (equally) > now be attacked as FALSE from Day One (and true). >=20 > Like being in jail, except =AD through the =8Cglissement des signes=B9 > (=8Cplay=B9 of languages) =AD something? >=20 > How this GOOD WRITING changes the oncoming catastrophe, I=B9m not sure > (can=B9t say). >=20 > Doesn=B9t =8Cprofit them=B9 to grille me! >=20 > A sheaf of fresh red-brown white-washed (=8CNorwegian=B9) hair & beard > grizzled eyeing you quizzically blue-eyed affectionately lang-po > death-of-the-author freethinking people declare yourself =AD an > off-rhyme =AD working class, germane to the situation, to wit =AD a box > (why not, you put it together?) =AD you make it yourself, then walk > round inside it! (it is =8CThe World=B9!) =AD you revile the box, & spit > upon it! ! =AD with a lyrical instinct wont to destroy the Avant Garde > along with it =AD un grand <> des grizzled (signatures) signes > =AD results in (both) a certain dissatisfaction with humans (& the > =8Cworld=B9) & yet (well-established/superior/separate) says what it is, > anyway, for it. How else could it be =8Cbetter represented=B9? >=20 > As much the face as the sink! >=20 > A serious poet, after all these years of seeming fun! >=20 > What words do, each does =AD how to begin to =8Csee through=B9 their > =8Cfundamental undertaking=B9 ? ? >=20 > It is a (seeming) prison one flees =AD Life Itself =AD by Imagination > (spellbound) returned to and enacted (anewed). >=20 > Robert Grenier > (November 11-12/98) >=20 >=20 >=20 > *Sunlight falls on one decision, leaving > shadow for another, the ground of all > identity. A moment alters; stars chain > into form. A word brings on evening.* >=20 > *Tom Mandel, from /Prospect of Release/* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 17:08:27 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: politically conservative poets in the U.S. since 1950? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since in poetry (at least in that of 20th century written in English) there is a disconnect between what is called or considered radical in language and the political beliefs of its practitioners, what is considered leftist or rightist (radical or conservative) in those beliefs, I do not quite understand the direction of this argument. Murat ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 19:13:03 -0230 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K.Angelo Hehir" Subject: performance poetry, short fuse anthology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII hi all, i have to agree with (i think it ron on his blog) that the editors missed something by not considering canadian sound poetry. aside from Kemp and Sherri D. canada is represented by the montreal anglo scene. where are scobie, bok, bissett, nichol and even me for that matter? it's happening from coast to coast and has been for over thirty years. set phasers to http://zed.cbc.ca/displayHome.do and click on the performance i think that cities or scenes often invent names to promote themselves within their own city but fail to acknowledge similar things happening other places becasue they are called different things. for instance there was a round table discussion that featured many of the "montreal spoken word scene" folks (it's not on-line any more) on the broken pencil site. from reading it you would have gotten the impression that the Nuyorcian was the only thing going in NYC. let alone the rest of the country. no point really. just want to point out that nomenclature is often regional. later, kevin -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 14:46:39 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Arielle Greenberg Subject: David Kirschenbaum? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Does anyone know where David is or if he's ok? I haven't heard or seen any postings from him in awhile and the issue of Boog City I worked on with him never came out...any news? I'm a bit worried. Please backchannel. thx Arielle __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 17:15:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: appropriate scale | print on demand | where are the bookfairs? In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v543) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tuesday, October 22, 2002, at 12:06 PM, Stephen Vincent wrote: > > > What, however, is your experience of what is either lost or - to put > it > another way - within the print-on-demand frame, how does a publisher > maintain a design aesthetic and production value. I guess a concern > would be > that print-on-demand creates a monolithic look and feel (same paper and > cover stock, same tone to the inking, etc.) Locally, for a few > examples, > it's nice to see the design separateness of AVEC, APOGEE, and ATELOS - > where > you really get a book and/or series that declares itself as distinct > from > each other and other presses. I guess we need a bit of clarification on terms... my use of print on demand completely predates the kind of model that you have seen pop up on the web in the last few years. plug & play instant publication gratification. in this new web model, the publisher as such basically disappears & is replaced with a form of preset replication. what Xexoxial has done all these years is operate just as any other good small press has done, having complete control over all aspects of design, production, distribution etc. If you have ever seen XE books, each one has a unique feel & design, limited really only by what papers & dimensions will feed thru a copier. the key here is publication equals the existence of a master printable copy which one can continuously make new editions from. when we were up & functioning smoothly, we often had an intern, who was responsible for keeping up with orders & keeping a small inventory (usually less than 25) on the shelf & in print. while I would say there is a very definite design signature for our books, each one is recognizable as unique. what makes print & demand particularly appealing is now one could keep on the masters for their whole press in quark files on a cd-r. We have 7 files drawers full of paper masters, every page of every title (more than a 150) was hand designed & glued with gluestick & penknife. we are at a point now where the next step is to digitize these masters before they become brittle with age. > > An apprehension here - in the I-universe print-on-demand model - of > coming > up with visual mush - books without legs, arms, seduction or punch - > where > production efficiency ironically ends up being a means of linguisitic > repression, or, at least, a sad limitation. that is an apprehension which I could just as easily apply to traditonally produced lit mags, small presses, websites, music cds, &webart. there is a craft, an attention, & for some of us a lifestyle & vision which requires that what we produce is outputted in a way that is not dismissed as a preset. in many ways it calls for greater sensitivity to experimentation with the media at hand. also (yr hearing me say this after almost 6 years of exclusively making work for online) micro publishing could not be in a more potentized & enabled position. a young person starting out with an excess of energy & time has at their fingertips access to instant printing technology (copiers, home color laser, inkjet), dsl & cable connection in the home (for running yr own web server) & web technology at a point where producing ebooks, mp3s, interactive digital lit can be distributed online globally. the key here is that the primary limitation is one's own imagination, not financial resources. while attending John Bennett's Avant 2 conference this summer I was struck continuously by the fact of being in the room with a lot of people who were still writing & publishing & networking with much of the same spirit that was pervasive during the very energetic "networking the networks" of the early 80s.... the books & the publications are obviously a part of an enduring group process, not the end in itself. good to hear your voice on these issues.. mIEKAL aND memexikon@mwt.net | ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 16:13:02 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: Re: appropriate scale | print on demand | where are the bookfairs? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii must say...xexoxial books are quite extraordinary...beautiful objects... bliss l ===== http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html meditation, net art, poeisis: blog http://lewislacook.blogspot.com/ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 19:41:43 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Mr. B MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Further salutes to the incomparable David Bromige, who is three hours younger on the west coast -- Anna & I are drinking a toast to you! <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "So all rogues lean to rhyme." --James Joyce Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 20:04:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: schwartzgk Subject: Re: David Kirschenbaum? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit he's slated to do the St. Mark's Poetry Project ARCHIVE BENEFIT w/ Lou Reed, Anne Waldman, Thurston Moore/Lee Renaldo, Kenward Elmslie, Steve Taylor, etc. on the 28th @ 8:00. Mutual friends tell me he's planning to do it... Best, Gerald Schwartz ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Greenberg" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 5:46 PM Subject: David Kirschenbaum? > Does anyone know where David is or if he's ok? I > haven't heard or seen any postings from him in awhile > and the issue of Boog City I worked on with him never > came out...any news? I'm a bit worried. Please > backchannel. > > thx > Arielle > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site > http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 19:59:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ray Bianchi Subject: Re: politically conservative poets in the U.S. since 1950? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think that quite a few poets could be classified as Conservative in the Burkean sense--Russell Kirk and Michael Oakeshott two conservative theorists consider TS Eliot and Wallace Stevens as Conservatives. and Stevens was involved in insurance which is not a Progressive business and in Kirk's book "the conservative mind" they are quoted and included. There are also many poets like Pound, D'Annunzzio, and many others who are poets of the r ight but yet progressive in their poetics. the comment below makes allot of sense even the most liberal American would be a moderate in most places and mostRightists in the USA are not the red blooded Fascist type they are just milktoast RB r ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Bowering" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 2:47 PM Subject: Re: politically conservative poets in the U.S. since 1950? > Well, "conservative" and "liberal" and "leftist" have peculiar > meanings in the USA. From outside it is hard to see the difference > between your two parties, both of which would be seen as well to the > right in most democracies. > -- > George Bowering > Per ardua ad astra. > Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 19:40:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: Christabel (3 Stanza Monte) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed 1. Christabel is returning to her vomit 2. Christabel is Virginia sometimes you should return to her as a dog returns to his vomit 3. An instance of moria, not moira this is my slow down (my speed up is free) my verse is a playground legend real American fare and I don't share Christabel malleable as a crowd of celebrities con gli occhi onesti e tardi misfortunes directly from a plate each Virginia is numbered to a violent end _________________________________________________________________ Unlimited Internet access -- and 2 months free! Try MSN. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/2monthsfree.asp ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 13:54:36 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Wystan Curnow (FOA ENG)" Subject: happy birthday david MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" BromigebromigebromigebRomigebromigebromige bRomigebromigebromigeBrOmigebromgebromige brOmigebromigebromigEbroMigebromigebromiGe broMigebromigebromiGebromIgebromigebromIge bromIgebromigebromIgebromiGebromigerboMige bromiGebromifebroMigebromigEbromigebrOmige bromigEbromigebrOmigebromigeBromigebRomige bromigeBromigebRomigebromigebRomigeBromige bromigebRomigeBromigebromigebrOmigEbromige bromigebrOmigEbromigebromigebroMiGebromige bromigebroMiGebromigebromigebromIgebromige bromigebromIgebromige Wystan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 21:21:53 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: MATERIAL-REAL MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII MATERIAL-REAL ---------------- Date: 10/22/02 Time: 20:54:07 Drive: C: Sector: 265 ---------------- text, "she said." Just as quotations slip laterally in the sentence, there is also a slippage in depth, for example, as Nikuko replies. @wet Nikuko. Nikuko is wet, dripping urine through her white cotton panties. We understand the oddity of this proposal, but we have been dealing with formally performative language for the past few years, in order to look at issues of virtual subjectivity, interaction, projection and introjection on the Net. We worry about being taken seriously, not as broken sch ---------------- Date: 10/22/02 Time: 21:07:52 Drive: C: Sector: 266 ---------------- izo- phrenics. put mouth on panties. You drink urine of Nikuko. "Performative" can be considered in any number of ways. For example, there is a _trace_ function in the Julu program Jennifer has written, a function which produces a text representing parent/child processes in unix, choices made by the user, manipulations by the program itself. The function produces a file, .trace, which, when reversed, is legibile. The .trace file accumulates, carrying the history of repeated usage; here is an examp ---------------- Date: 10/22/02 Time: 21:08:05 Drive: C: Sector: 267 ---------------- le: hairpiece:sure thing:Julu:leg: Come home with me, hairpiece, julu-of-the-fast-crowd! Your dirty arm is in my black neck HaPPINESS:Yes:Alan:: Your psychotic head is in my sexy head Your your penis seeps into my head - turning me Julu-Jennifer Hole:YES!!:Julu:nail: Your poor urine is in my depressed nail Devour poor urine julu-of-the partying Hole! Nikuko ...:never!:Nikuko:hair:hair Your linen leg is in my wanton hair Your passion seeps into my hair - turning me Julu-Jennifer dirty:yeah:Nik ---------------- Date: 10/22/02 Time: 21:08:17 Drive: C: Sector: 268 ---------------- uko:ear: Your psychotic eye is in my velvet ear Devour psychotic eye julu-of-the partying dirty! Note the stick-like or _anime_ figures at work, distributed authorships and anatomies. look panties. You see nothing special. So that "performative" language has three constituents: 1. Its usual site and analysis as speech act or performative in tradi- tional linguistics (and all the accompanying critiques); 2. Referencing programming language, which is always performative; thus "echo `date`" call ---------------- Date: 10/22/02 Time: 21:08:27 Drive: C: Sector: 269 ---------------- s up date which echo then sends to the standard output; 3. _Any_ statement, say, in a chat (IRC, talker, MOO, MUD, chat, etc.) environment, which both _constitutes_ and _constructs_ the subject/user; without the statement, the subject/user disappears for others. There is thus the constructed/constituted subject - who is, by virtue of protocols, always already _well-defined,_ and the subject on the other/ near side of the screen - who need not detain us: one might in this fashion call the "real" or ---------------- Date: 10/22/02 Time: 21:08:31 Drive: C: Sector: 270 ---------------- "physical-real" subject the _virtual subject_ by virtue of his or her dis/appearance in relation to others on the Net. Avatars are always disturbances, always irruptions of language, a lang- uage portending _the raveling of existence and essence,_ for these terms meld within each other, tangled in avatar-sites/sights/citations. @create $thing called begging. You have a $thing called begging with object number #75438. (Now we call _these_ avatars _emanants,_ since they are more deeply em- bedded ---------------- Date: 10/22/02 Time: 21:08:39 Drive: C: Sector: 271 ---------------- ==== ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 18:42:55 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K. Silem Mohammad" Subject: Re: Mr. B In-Reply-To: <200210222341.TAA13037@webmail5.cac.psu.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Yes, David--I'm wearing my pointy hat and blowing my noisemaker. I know, I know, what else is new? Happy Birthday! Kasey 10/22/02 4:41 PM, ALDON L NIELSEN at aln10@PSU.EDU wrote: > Further salutes to the incomparable David Bromige, who is three hours younger > on > the west coast -- Anna & I are drinking a toast to you! > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > "So all rogues lean to rhyme." > --James Joyce > > > Aldon L. Nielsen > Kelly Professor of American Literature > The Pennsylvania State University > 116 Burrowes > University Park, PA 16802-6200 > > (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 19:24:55 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: Fwd: Nerve Lantern: New "Idea Box" at Website Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v546) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit forwarding this for a friend. kari Begin forwarded message: > From: "Ellen Redbird" > Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 5:27:16 PM US/Pacific > To: nervelantern@hotmail.com > Subject: Nerve Lantern: New "Idea Box" at Website > > Dear Nerve Lantern Email List, > > Announcing a new addition to the Nerve Lantern website: an Idea Box! > > You are invited to send in ideas about performance texts to be > considered for the Idea Box. > > If an idea is selected, it will be either (1) listed in the online > Idea Box or (2) published in the next issue of Nerve Lantern to > inspire discussion and creative pieces. > > You can choose to have your name listed by the idea or not. > > By sharing the idea you are agreeing to let it be freely seen and used > by anyone. The idea must not be copyrighted. > > What kinds of ideas? Some examples: Ideas for writers about form and > subject matter for performance texts. Ideas of how to perform texts. > Critical observations and theories about performance literature. > Critical questions posed to inspire scholarly or craft discussion. > Ways to connect writers and performers. Ideas for what could be done > via Nerve Lantern. > > To submit an idea, email (1) the idea, (2) your name, (3) whether or > not you would like your name listed by the idea, and (4) your email > address to: idea@pyriformpress.com > > Idea Box: http://www.pyriformpress.com/ideabox.html > Submit to Idea Box: http://www.pyriformpress.com/ideasubmit.html > > I hope you will contribute to this endeavor and/or pass this message > on to anyone you think would like to participate. Who knows what > projects, discussions, and collaborations might ensue? > > *** > Also, you can check out the new bio pages for the some of the > contributors to Nerve Lantern at: > > http://www.pyriformpress.com/nlbios.html > *** > > Thank you. > > Best wishes, > Ellen Redbird > > Editor of Nerve Lantern > > P.S. If you would like to be taken off the Nerve Lantern email list, > just let me know at: nervelantern@hotmail.com . Thanks. > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Surf the Web without missing calls! Get MSN Broadband. > http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 12:48:59 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Pam=20Brown?= Subject: Re: int'l poetry cultures (was Report from Czech Republic Poetry Festival) In-Reply-To: <20021022155144.40277.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Celebrity in Australia is like Israel in the late '80s- Famous DJ Kid Kenobi (http://www.residentadvisor.com.au/dj_view.asp?ID=217) lives in my apartment building in Sydney. True, Cheerio from Pam --- Arielle Greenberg wrote: > I find this very useful to know, how other cultures > react to their writers and to poetry in general. I > know that when I lived in Israel in the late 80s, > celebrity as a whole was on a much smaller > scale--there was not so much class difference then, > so > it was likely that the nation's biggest pop star > lived > in the same apt building you did. And they > definitely > revere their poets and writers, although this was > mostly true of the patriotic poets associated with > Israel's founding--I was too young at the time to > really know if there was a flourishing scene of > younger writers. > > Arielle > > --- paula speck wrote: > > > > > So there's a price to be paid for living in the > > richest, most culturally > > dominent nation in the world. Other social and > > cultural currents are > > operating as well, of course, but I really think > > that what I just described > > is a big part of it. Do listees in far corners of > > the world agree? > > > > Paula Speck > > (currently in Washington, D.C.) > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: Andrew Rathmann > > > >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group > > > > >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > >Subject: Re: Report from Czech Republic Poetry > > Festival > > >Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 21:42:51 -0800 > > > > > >Thanks for the update, Sylvester. To what do you > > attribute their > > >enthusiasm (I mean, beyond the inherent interest > of > > the poets)? I suppose > > >it's the American illiteracy and indifference > that > > really need to be > > >explained, but can you hazard a conjecture about > > why conditions seem better > > >there? > > > > > >Does it partly reflect a European government's > > commitment to funding such > > >things? Is it something in Czech beer? > > > > > >Andy > > > > > > > > >Where the humility, humiliation really, comes in > is > > > >in realizing that we live in a society that > cares > > very little to not at > > >all > > > >about what we do, and that in other societies > > this is not necessarily > > >the > > > >case. To walk through Mahlerova (Mahler Street) > > to the theatre where he > > >was > > > >orchestra director, to learn that Mozart > > wrote/premiered his 6th symphony > > > >in a cathedral there (at age 11), to see > posters > > & banners all over the > > > >city promoting a poetry festival, and to see > all > > events standing room > > >only, > > > >with enthusiastic audiences of young and old, > to > > see full press coverage, > > > >just extraordinary. There's a whole world out > > there! People who read! > > > >Sylvester > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Unlimited Internet access -- and 2 months free! > Try > > MSN. > > > http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/2monthsfree.asp > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site > http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ ===== Web site/Pam Brown - http://www.geocities.com/p.brown/ http://careers.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Careers - 1,000's of jobs waiting online for you! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 21:50:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: Virginia Vs. The Greedy Mugs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed a vagrant breaks out in beads of occasional congregation frequent manuscript an ancestral home to dazzlement receipt passing through a second edition this voluptuary good-natured holiday full-dress paste lopping off its countrymen Lord Byron's women feel the sting of makeshift rounds shipwrecks are often facts of expensive simplicity entertainers of the fourth act must be middle-age service can only end through the body such punishments were adopted by royalty Pyrrhic language a fact of human arrangement debunking of association cultivates exchange magnetic syntax ignorant of the hounds the early lyrics have a certain plausibility your revelatory pledge comments on goatish paradox fall victim to merriment or talk of virtue Virginia coming out of court with no rewards to do her justice Virginia (her fur afloat) said the scene is nearly suffocated adultery purchased your sententious task it's the sky all over again! - overgrown with space archivists are short of memory at first before coercion ends thus, children stand opposition to sagacity hierarchy had been due for a quarter of a century (here the report by no means breaks off) abolition of the public information supplied you with pamphlets Charles Bernstein daydreams of moderating a grand scale absorption this machine was made to raise funds every other supping circle is mistaken for an insurrection correspondence relating to success publicly double your heavy questions are a further installment of silence some canons allowed placards fundamental consideration remained least initiative disguising apprehension to consider revulsion an issue leatherbound accent is easily the linchpin of a different slope the shibboleth is seamless: "we are used to hoarding" you'll see a pattern from voice to minx when shortages follow pictures Virginia's frolicking understands why your tears are billowing her corpse will be doubled to divide its eternal reward your coasting verse is a thorough compliance no one here but Byron avoiding cordials and habituations in turn the embodiments of pageantries well within the mark of thralldom be assured that with loud pledges of performance materials are overawed enough of these pledges will land you a World's Record play a game of storm & drying nets over two youths hardly broken "that beautiful pale face is my fate," Caroline Lamb said of Byron Bohemia was a place where the girls got away as soon as possible _________________________________________________________________ Get faster connections -- switch to MSN Internet Access! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 21:52:20 -0700 Reply-To: cstroffo@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino Subject: Re: Virginia Vs. The Greedy Mugs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For awhile I thought "Jeff Harrison" was a pseudonym for Alan Sondheim so he could post twice as much--- but now it hits me that Alan Sondheim may think Jeff Hamilton is a pseudonym for someone else who doesn't like Alan or his cast of nikuku cuddlies very much.... Harrison Jeff wrote: > a vagrant breaks out in beads of occasional congregation > frequent manuscript an ancestral home to dazzlement > > receipt passing through a second edition > this voluptuary good-natured holiday > > full-dress paste lopping off its countrymen > Lord Byron's women feel the sting of makeshift rounds > > shipwrecks are often facts of expensive simplicity > entertainers of the fourth act must be middle-age > > service can only end through the body > such punishments were adopted by royalty > > Pyrrhic language a fact of human arrangement > debunking of association cultivates exchange > > magnetic syntax ignorant of the hounds > the early lyrics have a certain plausibility > > your revelatory pledge comments on goatish paradox > fall victim to merriment or talk of virtue > > Virginia coming out of court with no rewards to do her justice > Virginia (her fur afloat) said the scene is nearly suffocated > > adultery purchased your sententious task > it's the sky all over again! - overgrown with space > > archivists are short of memory at first > before coercion ends thus, children stand opposition to sagacity > > hierarchy had been due for a quarter of a century > (here the report by no means breaks off) > > abolition of the public information supplied you with pamphlets > Charles Bernstein daydreams of moderating a grand scale absorption > > this machine was made to raise funds > every other supping circle is mistaken for an insurrection > > correspondence relating to success publicly double > your heavy questions are a further installment of silence > > some canons allowed placards > fundamental consideration remained least > > initiative disguising apprehension to consider revulsion an issue > leatherbound accent is easily the linchpin of a different slope > > the shibboleth is seamless: "we are used to hoarding" > you'll see a pattern from voice to minx when shortages follow pictures > > Virginia's frolicking understands why your tears are billowing her > corpse will be doubled to divide its eternal reward > > your coasting verse is a thorough compliance > no one here but Byron avoiding cordials and habituations in turn > > the embodiments of pageantries well within the mark of thralldom > be assured that with loud pledges of performance materials are overawed > > enough of these pledges will land you a World's Record > play a game of storm & drying nets over two youths hardly broken > > "that beautiful pale face is my fate," Caroline Lamb said of Byron > Bohemia was a place where the girls got away as soon as possible > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get faster connections -- switch to MSN Internet Access! > http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 22:14:22 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dcmb Subject: Re: David Kirschenbaum? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit well, theres no shortage of David around here, but I dont recall working on a Boog if thats the word so likely I am not to David meant.Just in case, however, I'm doing fine --David Bromige -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Greenberg To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 2:50 PM Subject: David Kirschenbaum? >Does anyone know where David is or if he's ok? I >haven't heard or seen any postings from him in awhile >and the issue of Boog City I worked on with him never >came out...any news? I'm a bit worried. Please >backchannel. > >thx >Arielle > > > >__________________________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site >http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 22:18:31 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dcmb Subject: Re: Mr. B MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To you too, dear friends--how I wish we lived near one another! Love, David and Cecelia -----Original Message----- From: ALDON L NIELSEN To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 4:41 PM Subject: Mr. B >Further salutes to the incomparable David Bromige, who is three hours younger on >the west coast -- Anna & I are drinking a toast to you! ><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > "So all rogues lean to rhyme." > --James Joyce > > >Aldon L. Nielsen >Kelly Professor of American Literature >The Pennsylvania State University >116 Burrowes >University Park, PA 16802-6200 > >(814) 865-0091 > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 02:35:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Dr=2E_Loss_Peque=F1o_Glazier=22?= Subject: Language & Encoding (Buffalo) Nov. 8-9 Registration Now Open! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The digital language event of the season. Registration now open! ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------------------------- Language & Encoding: A Symposium for Artists, Programmers, & Scholars Nov. 8-9, 2002 City of Buffalo, New York Key practitioners in new media arts, cultural theory, computer science, and= =20 poetics deliberate issues critical to the intertwined engagements of=20 language, expression, and computer code in emergent media. Two evenings of= =20 unique performances (Hallwalls, Big Orbit) and a day of engaging panels=20 (Butler House). Registration recommended to reserve your place! Language & Encoding features John Cayley, Alex Galloway, Lisa Jevbratt, Lev= =20 Manovich, Michael Mateas, Jonathan Minton, David Rokeby, Phoebe Sengers,=20 Marc B=F6hlen and Loss Peque=F1o Glazier. With special performances by Judd= =20 Morrissey & Lori Talley, Beige Records, and others! For registration info and full symposium details see=20 http://epc.buffalo.edu/events/02/encoding/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 06:50:43 -0400 Reply-To: ron.silliman@gte.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Subject: Dana Gioia to run NEA Comments: To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu In-Reply-To: <200210230521.g9N5L2603328@wiz.cath.vt.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit October 23, 2002 Poet a Contender to Run Federal Arts Agency By ROBIN POGREBIN The poet, critic and anthologist Dana Gioia has emerged as the leading candidate to become the next chairman of the National Endowment for the Arts, according to sources close to the process. The previous chairman of that agency, Michael P. Hammond, died in January after just a week in the post. Mr. Gioia's nomination, which must be confirmed by the Senate, is expected to be announced by President Bush in about two weeks, a government official said. Because of the endowment's history as a lightning rod for impassioned debates about the direction of culture in the country and the government's role in financing it, the chairmanship is a sensitive post that draws far more attention than other positions with influence over annual budgets far larger than the endowment's $115 million. Reached by telephone, Mr. Gioia would confirm only that he was being considered. "Yes, I have been talking to the White House about this post," he said. "I can't say anything more than that because it would be inappropriate at this point. I am not a nominee." Mr. Gioia (pronounced JOY-a), 51, has published three books of poetry: "Daily Horoscope" (1986), "The Gods of Winter" (1991) and "Interrogations at Noon" (2001), which won the American Book Award in May. He is well known as someone who has revived rhyme and meter, though he also writes in free verse. He was widely recognized for his essay "Can Poetry Matter?," which appeared in The Atlantic in 1991. In the essay, Mr. Gioia argued that a clubby academic subculture that had grown up around poetry was preventing it from being widely available to the mainstream. The essay prompted considerable debate and was included in Mr. Gioia's 1992 collection of essays, "Can Poetry Matter?: Essays on Poetry and American Culture," which was selected by Publishers Weekly as one of its Best Books of 1992 and became a finalist for the National Book Critics Circle award. Mr. Gioia's poems, translations, essays and reviews have also appeared in The New Yorker, The Washington Post Book World and The New York Times Book Review. He is also a longtime commentator on American culture and literature for BBC Radio, for which he has done programs on Robert Frost and Shakespeare, among others. Before becoming a full-time writer in 1992, Mr. Gioia spent 15 years in the business world, where he became a vice president of General Foods - now part of Kraft - most of the time in White Plains, N.Y. Reared in Hawthorne, Calif., an industrial section of Los Angeles County, Mr. Gioia received a bachelor's degree in English from Stanford University, where he returned to earn a master's degree in business administration. He also earned a master's in comparative literature at Harvard University, where he studied with the poets Robert Fitzgerald and Elizabeth Bishop. Mr. Gioia originally intended to be a composer. He is the classical music critic for San Francisco magazine and wrote the libretto for an opera, "Nosferatu," with the composer Alva Henderson; the piece is to have two concert presentations next month in Chattanooga, Tenn. Mr. Gioia has taught as a visiting writer at Colorado College, Johns Hopkins University and Wesleyan University, among other institutions. He is also vice president of the Poetry Society of America. He lives in Sonoma County in California with his wife, Mary, and two sons, ages 9 and 13. Even without a permanent chairman, recent organizational changes at the National Endowment for the Arts have concerned some arts groups and members of Congress, with memories of "culture wars" battles clearly in the background. Eileen C. Mason, the endowment's acting chairwoman, announced that program directors who oversee the agency's various disciplines, like literature and folk art, will become subordinate to two directors, one who was in charge of classical music, the other overseeing museums. Officials of arts groups that promote programs involving immigrant culture and other less entrenched art forms worried that the demotion of those program directors signaled a shift away from some nontraditional arts toward more mainstream creative areas and might ultimately influence financing. Ms. Mason insisted that the organizational changes would not affect the kinds of art that the agency supported. "There is absolutely no intention to favor one discipline over another," she said in an interview. But members of Congress have asked endowment officials to explain the reasons for the changes. Representative Louise M. Slaughter, Democrat of New York and chairwoman of the Congressional Arts Caucus, said, "We asked Eileen Mason to come in." She added, "What we're worried about is what is going on behind the scenes." Two former endowment officials said that it was Ann Guthrie Hingston, the agency's White House and Congressional liaison, who tried in December to delay approval of a grant for a California production of "Homebody/Kabul," Tony Kushner's play about a British woman who disappears in Taliban-era Afghanistan. The grant was ultimately approved. Ms. Hingston previously served as a speechwriter for President Ronald Reagan and a national program director for the Best Friends Foundation, a privately funded program that encourages abstinence in low-income girls. Ms. Hingston did not return calls seeking comment. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 05:41:07 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: a longer spare moment Comments: cc: "arc.hive" <_arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au>, cupcake kaleidoscope , Renee , rhizome , wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii None of the poets in the ninth circle had eyes. I was climbing a ladder into descending a staircase, watching the spokes on the wheel forward it to some professors in the Library Science Dept. Among the dust of books, lightly glimmering as if moths had in this very room shed their resistance to earthliness, I get a longer spare moment. Asking us to try and reclaim back our imaginations, our minds, our souls, the missing of orb-shapes in a blistering white matters like clots maim when, manic with fissures, I work in a space here of relative confusion, consuming what could be light but only (I find just when it's in my mouth, just before the ultimatum swallows) turns out to be every page created in an edition of 30 copies by the contributors and then gathered and bound (every 30 contributors). Jesse, I am interested in this project being a collective result, though I myself sit here by myself, selfless and pre-determined. The dematerialization of contents, as well as the monitoring of bodies and places; there is no distance, only proximity, and sitting near you as I do too often to jog with memory through Tralfalgar Square (I enjoyed these four poems quite a bit, and would like to publish "Orphans" and "The Siege" in the January issue of a newly sprung year, caught near the hub of the bicycle where your hand spits damage on the grain), I really love Basquiat, and dubuffet - in fact I've been rereading Dubuffet's 'Asphyxiating Culture', it always cheers me up that someone else distrusted Institutions like I do. ===== http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html meditation, net art, poeisis: blog http://lewislacook.blogspot.com/ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 08:30:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Mr. B In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable happy happy and many many returns returns of the day day thrivin n survivin jivin n scrivin... all of us here at the salon de discipline litt=E9raire wish you all the bliss of life. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 08:52:04 -0400 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: 'can poetry matter" Just finished skimming Dana Gioia's essay "CAN POETRY MATTER" (easy 'nuff off the net)...while finishing up my diet breakfast of strong Phillipino Coffee (thanx Ghani) crumb cake and organic pistachio ice cream... I can't figure out if i'm right or left....i know i'm not up front center...the moral tone is appalling...the choice of poets is even worse...the harkening back to the comforts of the poets of the past is disheartening...there is a spritz of sense within the maelstrom... as some one whose last 2 books had just a few words each in 'em...and those pretty much indecipherable what can i say...this is not yr mama or papa's Robert Bly..60's...70's...80's...90'.....gibe me the nada nada nude 00 blues...DRn.. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 08:52:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Henry Subject: Re: sales rankings query In-Reply-To: <200210230403.AAA24817@mailhub2.mail.cornell.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Around 12:03 AM 10/23/2002, Jeffrey Jullich wrote, > (a difference of 500 copies would translate into an > inverse rankings difference of around 250,000??). Except, I think, Amazon only counts sales _through Amazon_ as significant in making its in-house ranking. I imagine this explains most of the discrepancies you're puzzling over. Ron Henry -- Ron Henry ronhenry@clarityconnect.com Aught, publishing alternative poetries: http://people2.clarityconnect.com/webpages6/ronhenry/aught.htm "They loved to trace the trajectory of the armadillo. They loved to speak of plankton. They also loved the fog." – Lisa Jarnot, "On the Sublime" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 08:01:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: Re: Dana Gioia to run NEA In-Reply-To: <000901c27a82$0d35ec10$e306c143@Dell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Surely this is proof that we're entering the final days? ---------------------------------------------------------- The poet, critic and anthologist Dana Gioia has emerged as the leading candidate to become the next chairman of the National Endowment for the Arts, according to sources close to the process. The previous chairman of that agency, Michael P. Hammond, died in January after just a week in the post. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 09:19:15 -0400 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: quoting scripture... ...that both Bob Holman (in his nonsense re Baraka)...& Dana Gioia (in his nonsense re po)...can... both with teaching U. jobs...quote the same 'old' news lines from Doc Williams..proves agin the left hand washes the rite and & rinse...Doc... where are you now on those early morning rounds...in the Arabic nabes of Patterson...Dr & out N... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 06:27:18 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: brad senning Subject: Washington, DC!!!! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hello Poetics A few of us poverty-stricken, humble DC writers are doing a reading at Art-o-matic, this great, somewhat annual warehouse-sized exhibition of the arts, and the organizers need furniture or a truck from us, go figure. Is there anything people don't want from the poor? Does anyone around the DC area want to brave the sniper and the cold to help out with the worthy cause of helping decorate the room we're going to read in? If not, I understand. Your attendance at the reading is more important to us anyway. In a few days, I'll let you know when the reading is. And the bunch of us would love to see any DC poetics-list lurkers (like myself) show their bright shining faces. No snipers, please. -Brad Senning ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrea" > > We could use help! Here is what we need: > > We need donations of strings of clear holiday lights; floor pillows; coffee > tables; couches. > We need someone with a vehicle who can help us pick up donations and take > them to AOM > We need people to help us paint this Thursday, Friday and Saturday > > The most important need is picking up donations--I have a few now and can't > get them. > > Please let me know forthwith about the possibility of your helping. Saturday > is pretty much the last day to get stuff into the space. > > Cheers, > > Andrea _________________________________________________________________ Get faster connections -- switch to MSN Internet Access! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 10:19:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: sylvester pollet Subject: Re: Report from Czech Republic Poetry Festival Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm on digest, so a bit slow to respond. Definitely the beer helps. I don't have more than superficial impressions, but I can give a few guesses at the current atmosphere. The city of the festival, Olomouc, is centrally located in the country, so the Soviets chose it to be the central garrison, for quick access to any part of the country. Until 1989 they had 45,000 Russian troops stationed there, with all the trucks, tanks, ammo dumps. All publication was controlled and censored. No photocopy machines, no mimeos permitted. My friend Petr Mikes was one of the samizdat publishers, and when I went to his house he showed me three of the original books--most he has given to an archive in Prague. The process was to type with thin paper and 7 or 8 carbons, then to place the loose sheets in a folder of construction paper, frequently with a hand-colored design on the cover. These copies would be circulated, and the recipient would make a further 7 or 8 copies to circulate. If you got caught, you got beat up or jailed for awhile. When such conditions change, enthusiasm blossoms. It's not just that city, of course, though there is a 14,000 student university there. Don't forget Vaclav Havel, a writer, is president of the country, which shows a broader cultural base than academe. Sylvester >Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 21:42:51 -0800 >From: Andrew Rathmann >Subject: Re: Report from Czech Republic Poetry Festival > >Thanks for the update, Sylvester. To what do you attribute their >enthusiasm (I mean, beyond the inherent interest of the poets)? I suppose >it's the American illiteracy and indifference that really need to be >explained, but can you hazard a conjecture about why conditions seem >better there? > >Does it partly reflect a European government's commitment to funding such >things? Is it something in Czech beer? > >Andy > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 08:09:49 -0700 Reply-To: Kara Quarles Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kara Quarles Subject: Hans Arp's Chess Set Comments: To: WRYTING-L@listserv.utoronto.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 ::=3DHAN-S-ARP | CRADLED FLAVOR OF RED WAX DAB LOON + + _________________________<+>_______________________________ and lipped what separates the image = bl(indravidyawaited)ooms a fiction its liver candied=20 totemized and frugally dressed=20 in =20 mecha*=20 ma*=20 nigh a call*=20 bar knack*=20 culls* the tight tan kidding skids hung in the cusp=20 of terrible mountains of sand hands in abeyance a bean si a baer say a bat are=20 floating in networks=20 along the islanded perimeters=20 of the growing din sport hearty = if then!=20 + +=20 ____________________________<+>_____________________________ CHACCHAC -dimpled urn- (la poriapurnia) cal:ibration-motes ladders go up to the ancient crooked shelves where tumbling races boil their sturdy champions making faces over the flaming costumes the wickshat beast in a compound of holy poisons marks = this spurge in a glossy bowl lead furrs the crimean soldier = molds thease cauldron of days unknown chunks the filing = hordes=20 lays bare its ornamental = nest-works inlaid with golden gummed dog's = teeth and prints of muffled = feathers=20 step and step and turn to = the ray of hum facile the greeting minions shed smoke under the = arches each heated footpath = a trail hypnerodrome scalar plasma of extended = exposure clipped bounty from the = swirling heads lingered plausibly by the = fiction of space carried = along in the tube sprectres reach out from the exploding = refractions limp like myth to a = frothing man-hole and = disappear cold crisp = starlit amphitheatre a blur = erasing=20 a skin of blur ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 12:37:58 -0400 Reply-To: cartograffiti@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "cartograffiti@mindspring.com" Subject: Jenny Penberthy contact info? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Does anyone out there have an e-mail address for Jenny Penberthy? Please b-c=2E Thanks, Taylor -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 13:21:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: poem Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Heaney, Horace, Thunders, Applause The tepid flavor of Hangers-on and starfuckers Farts across 1,000 pews too Distant to Properly suck up, Me bowling for pussy and not Psalms to bask in each Unapologetic solipsism, degree of sycophancy Rather than be Seen, fade to corners unclamored by Trick hellos but Rock in anticipating mystification As methinks the elevator Peters amid Latin To have Settled inside this Bastard calling relying on insufferables to further anoint Three ring chapel, there's no shame Along aisles of unstoppable Genuflections No unguarded Release to seminate Yours truly skips mention of his own Foul scent, a bitter hovering Salt which licks to Wounds slight as His Unappeasably sent Past brogue ears that oughtta be hotter Beyond itself, poems get Further than intended Out from under loved Ones and Fated to get spoiled in hokiest Introductions by the well-meaning Meanest _________________________________________________________________ Choose an Internet access plan right for you -- try MSN! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 13:21:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: poem Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed The Tomato Cans of Covet Glom on tight to rising Counterparts Slip into your k Hole to find regrettable Dental coverage Even with the perkosets I am less Katie Couric and more Captain Kangaroo Maybe I'm amazed you're still around Except much worse exit thru Spinning mouths toward impromptu furniture redesignations That neither soothe nor meet Specs All the while open Mikes get canceled until perpetrators get Identities Patriots, must we be so precious, At gala receptions with barbeque forks Find me and bring about Double digit reforms that swelter and Care Your buzz at breakout comes as a Shock Ambitions hateful as hornets, To stomp The countryside until the subways Visit In the trusty hearts of Robots, shit is going down and Records make comebacks What's missing in our manic Trances is a little understanding for Palookas, who toil past the Bell to feast on Left hooks _________________________________________________________________ Choose an Internet access plan right for you -- try MSN! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 14:04:03 -0400 Reply-To: penwaves@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Lewis Subject: Re: politically conservative poets I think you need to define what you have in mind as "conservative." Certainly in UK there are poets like Geoffrey Hill that are well-known for their Tory-like views. In US, "conservatism" among poets is really of the individualist/libertarian strain. I was took poets like Ted Enslinn, Bob Arnold, William Bronk,Clark Coolidge and Ed Foster coming from that New Englandly Transcendentalist Individualism. Ed Foster's decison to "avoid the authorities"(kerouac) and not accept government monies or grants stems from his political beliefs. Reaganite poets? Don't know, but I do remember Allen Ginsberg getting into a snit over William Jay Smith because the latter said he would never do anything to embarrass his country --but does that make him a rightwinger? Conversely, the only admitted communnist (small 'c') poet in the US is Amiri Baraka. When I was researching Walter Lowenfels for his selected poems I edited, his CP party was a part of his archive at the Beinecke Library at Yale. Joel Lewis ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 14:04:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ontological Subject: RIchard Foreman on PBS Comments: To: KrajciJ@aol.com, poespace@wanadoo.fr, degentesh@earthlink.net, poespace@wanadoo.fr, Dianedetroit@aol.com, Fusson@aol.com, Matchgrls@aol.com, Sblooz@aol.com, KrajciJ@aol.com, Matchgrls@aol.com, Fusson@aol.com, Djselah1@cs.com, ENauen@aol.com, acellis@hearst.com, TANTINNKK@aol.com, twi-ny@nyc.rr.com, degentesh@earthlink.net, Sblooz@aol.com, Dianedetroit@aol.com, Gabriella Agranet-Getz , Rania Ajami , Tea Alagic , David Antin , ArtServices , Lisa Attanasio , William James Austin , Mary Bauer , Michele Belluomini , Bill Berkson , Paul Berman , Charles Bernstein , Tina Mae Bishko , Charles Bernstein , Mary Milton , Ken Jordon , Paul Berman , Susan Letham , Timothy Braun , Kate Brehm , Jacob Burckhardt , Larry Burns , Evan Cabinet , Araceli Camargo , Tea Alagic , Bob Cucuzza , Elina Lowensohn , "D.J. Mendel" , Anthony Cerrato , Cydney Chadwick , Steve Clay , Kenneth Collins , Corina Copp , Leanne Corcoran , Brian PJ Cronin , Caroline Crumpacker , Rafael Cubela , Bob Cucuzza , Mary Curtin , Maria Damon , Michael Darling , Shira Dentz , Muriel Dimen , Bob Dombrowski , Gabriel Dominguez , John Dooley , Caitlin McDonough-Thayer , Ryan West , BJ Lockhart , Kristen Pratt , Stephen Ellis , Linda Faith , Ramona Fantino , Erin Farrell , Richard Foreman , Juliana Francis , Juliana Francis , Zachary Oberzan , Okwui Okpokwasili , Ryan Holsopple , Chris Skeens , Manny Igrejas , Rosemary Quinn , Elka Krajewska , Erin Farrell , Neal Wilkinson , Rania Ajami , Tina Mae Bishko , Jonathan Valukis , Mollie Hensley , Tony Torn , Steve Garcia , Susan Gevirtz , Eric Giraud , "C.S. Giscombe" , Hannah Grace , Steven Hall , Carla Harryman , Mollie Hensley , Nicholas Hermansen , Schuyler Hoffman , Ryan Holsopple , Manny Igrejas , Ramona Fantino , Aleksandra Malik , Nick Konow , Kenneth Collins , Hannah Grace , Eric Powers <02ecp@williams.edu>, Ophelia Landrin , Kate Brehm , Schuyler Hoffman , Nicholas Hermansen , Nate Schenkkan , Timothy Braun , Rafael Cubela , Susan Jonas , Ken Jordon , Pierre Joris , Kasia , Maria Kazalia , Mary Kite , Nick Konow , Elka Krajewska , Joel Kuszai , Ophelia Landrin , Susan Letham , Amanda Lichtenberg , Linda , BJ Lockhart , Marci Logan , Elina Lowensohn , Diana Rickard , Shira Dentz , Cydney Chadwick , Larry Burns , Jacob Burckhardt , William James Austin , Dianedetroit@aol.com, poespace@wanadoo.fr, La Monte Yound , Michael Powell , Wanda Phipps , Marc Nasdor , Susan Mills , Linda , Mary Kite , Pierre Joris , Steven Hall , "C.S. Giscombe" , Stephen Ellis , John Dooley , Bob Dombrowski , Michele Belluomini , Lisa Attanasio , David Antin , KrajciJ@aol.com, Sblooz@aol.com, degentesh@earthlink.net, Matchgrls@aol.com, Fusson@aol.com, Aleksandra Malik , Gillian McCain , Caitlin McDonough-Thayer , "D.J. Mendel" , Susan Mills , Mary Milton , Rebecca Moore , Michael Morgan , Marc Nasdor , Zach Oat , Zachary Oberzan , Okwui Okpokwasili , Albert Onello , Susan Osterman , Wanda Phipps , Kala Pierson , Michael Powell , Eric Powers <02ecp@williams.edu>, Kristen Pratt , Rosemary Quinn , Stephen Ratcliffe , Diana Rickard , Nora Roberts , Jay Sanders , Channing Sargeant , Nate Schenkkan , Chris Skeens , Rick Spreyer , Christopher Stackhouse , Michael Darling , Brian PJ Cronin , Evan Cabinet , Michael Morgan , Brian Stefans , Carolyn Steinhoff , Sweeney Stephanie , Mary Jane Sullivan , Tony Torn , Frederic Tuten , Catherine Tyc , Jonathan Valukis , Marco Villalobos , Keith & Rosmarie Waldrop , Wendy Walker , Andreas Walter , Jacqueline Waters , Ryan West , Kim Whitener , Neal Wilkinson , Max Winter , Catherine Woodard , La Monte Yound Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit THE ONTOLOGICAL THEATRE ON EGG, THE ARTS SHOW On Friday, October 25th, EGG the Arts Show, will feature a segment on Richard Foreman and the Ontological-Hysteric Theatre. The program is dealing with the "mysteries of life explained" and will feature scenes from the rehearsal process for last year's Maria Del Bosco. Not only will this be a treat for those of you who have followed Richard's work for years, it should also be a wonderful introduction for those who are unfamiliar with the Ontological Theatre. So tell your friends and tune in! EGG airs on Friday, October 25th at 10:00 pm with an encore presentation Saturday the 26th at 12:30 am. For more information visit http://www.pbs.org/wnet/egg/. -- Joshua Briggs Production Manager Ontological-Hysteric Theatre 131 East 10th Street New York, NY 10003 Tel: 212-420-1916 Fax: 212-529-2318 ontological@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 11:38:02 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jacqueline Waters Subject: Mayer/Good Reading Postponed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Long Poems at the Parkside: Bernadette Mayer & Philip Good scheduled for Sunday, Oct. 27 at 7pm has been postponed A new announcement will follow More information: Elizabeth Reddin at earling50@hotmail.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 13:40:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: Re: World Series Comments: cc: Safdie Joseph MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Okay Joe. Here ya go. -Aaron ________________________________________ Two games, thirty two hits, and eighteen runs later It looks like Frisco's rubber chicken is fricasseed Too bad Barry Bonds doesn't get ten chances each game to swat 'em in the drink-- (Box scores: if you reads 'em, you know the big slugger needs 'em.) Hey Dusty, here's a dictum: 25 might get you close to trophies, but it takes pitching to win em'. Meanwhile Scoscia's balanced attack reveals the balogna in Baker's one-trick pony. Kent! Wherefore art thou? 3 for 13, one RBI? And Kenny, 1 for 12? (There's one to stop, drop your bat and admire...) Perhaps it's time for you Santiago, Dunston, Sanders, and the others on Centrum Silver to retire? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 13:50:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: Re: World Series- revision Comments: cc: Safdie Joseph MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit - Sorry, Joe, here's a slight revision. -Aaron ________________________________________ Two games, thirty two hits, and twenty runs later It looks like Frisco's rubber chicken is fricasseed Too bad Barry Bonds doesn't get ten chances each game to swat 'em in the drink-- (Box scores: if you reads 'em, you know the slugger needs 'em.) Hey Dusty, here's a dictum: Big 25 might get you close to trophies, but it takes pitching to win em'. Meanwhile Scioscia's balanced attack reveals the balogna in Baker's one-trick pony. Kent! Wherefore art thou? 3 for 13, one RBI? And Kenny, 1 for 12? (There's one to stop, drop your bat and admire...) Perhaps it's time for you Santiago, Dunston, Sanders, and the others sucking Centrum Silver to retire? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 12:31:39 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Mr. B In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Yeah, I am also of a mind to say happy birthday, Brom. As a birthday present, you can keep the shirts you took last time you were staying here. -- George Bowering Per ardua ad astra. Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 12:44:56 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Jullich Subject: Re: sales rankings query MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii rgh3@CORNELL.EDU wrote: > I imagine this explains most of the discrepancies you're puzzling over. That explains a difference of ~a million~ in the rankings between Nada Gordon's two books, published within months of each other?! etc., etc. You might want to look at something like Judith Chevalier's "Measuring Prices and Price Competition Online: Amazon and Barnes and Noble", at http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=319701 . Everyone knows that Amazon counts only their own sales (duh). The point about the 500 copies was precisely that: that rankings, as such, cannot be extrapolated into ~either~ being representative of total sales elsewhere or ~within Amazon~ (see below). The more significant (or interesting) discrepancy around the 500 copies is not so much the 250,000 ranking difference, but that the rankings are ~inverse~ to their sales as reported elsewhere. That is, *books with smaller total sales are showing up as higher Amazon rankings* than books with greater total sales. (If Amazon reflected "the real world," Graham = 65,971/8,500 (ranking/total sales), Poetry Like Bread = 310,638/9,000 and Any Rough Time = 190,379/5,000, from higher to lower, should yield Like Bread Graham Any Rough but it yields Like Bread Any Rough Graham ! :) {whoopee!}) http://www.antiqnet.com/cgi-bin/texis/scripts/mainsearch/auxdetail.html?num=3&did=3d11f8a1e [ERRATUM on previous e-mail: for "Paul McCartney's ~Blackbird Singing~ . . . was estimated to have sold approximately *3,750* copies in its first year", read: "was estimated to have sold approximately 3,750 copies in its first ~month"~ (or 45,000 in its first year). . . . which renders absurd any implication like the first six titles' in the original list, that Ashbery (6,670) somehow creams Paul McCartney (7,627) or Jewel (7,481), in Amazonia!] Also: the Law of Big Numbers (Big Numbahs) would have it that, even where there are a couple of million titles, where there are ~hundreds~ of millions of purchases those purchases will not distribute themselves ordinally without gaps so that there's a one-for-one match between rankings and sales, but there must be *different rankings which have the same number of sales.* And the compression becomes greater down toward the smaller numbers of sales and lower rankings where the poetry titles abound. ---That is, with poetry books, which might sell only two or three, five or six copies on-line, there is not only ~one~ sale of two copies or one of six, but there would be several for each. And, within sales of the same amount, the titles would still have to be differentiated, so that "several different factors" would include something as simple as assigning a unique number (ranking) to each title. Otherwise, there could be more than one # 1 Best Seller. But then, there is a further disconnect between sales rankings and even *Amazon* sales, and you cannot accurately tell how far apart any sales ranking is from one that follows after it. Perhaps this little not.art web site that I put up last winter--- http://jeffersonpythagoras.da.ru/ ---would help further elucidate (best viewed in Netscape Navigator. Internet Explorer doesn't show the blinking serial numbers). ARE YOU ASKING ME TO PLAY A "WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE?"-TYPE GAME, TO FIND THE HOUSEWIFE POURING COFFEE INTO A FLOWER POT, AND ANTLER IN THE TREETOPS?! http://www.epa.gov/OWOW/NPS/kids/whatwrng.htm http://www.jaybill.com/~jaybill/article.php?articleID=49 Jeffrey __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 17:27:06 -0230 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K.Angelo Hehir" Subject: VANCOUVER STORYTELLING FEST, MALLTALK and more... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Hey Folks, Just a reminder that all of your regular TWH info and city wide spoken word updates (aside from this lists font of info) can be found at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thunderingwordheard/ Sign up! Send in your listings, updates and poetics! The past couple of weeks have been quiet-ish at TWH with the fall weather falling 'pon us, and we miss your ever encouraging and supportive presence, so if you ain't been out on a Sunday night in a while, c'mon down! Also, I want to tell you about the VANCOUVER STORYTELLING FESTIVAL coming up November 1st through to the 3rd. Aside from the BOHEMIAN CONSULATE stage, produced by yours truly and featuring names familiar to you spoken word nuts out there-CASS KING, R.C. WESLOWSKI, T.PAUL, TARA JEAN WILKIN, and jazz guitarist NOAH WALKER, there are three fantastic nights of performances happening : VANCOUVER STORYTELLING FESTIVAL www.vancouverstorytelling.org Kissing the Blarney Stone Cabaret on Friday, November 1 @ 8 pm, Wise Hall. Courage, Gumption, Bravado and Luck on Saturday, November 2 @ 8pm, UBC First Nations House of Learning. WOMEN IN LABOUR Working Class Tales with Ronnie Gilbert, Gay Ducey and Melanie Ray on Sunday, November 3 @ 7:30 pm at the Roundhouse Community Centre. Please check the VSF website at http://www.vancouverstorytelling.org for more information! THE BOHEMIAN CONSULATE @ the VSF with CASS KING, R.C. WESLOWSKI, T.PAUL, TARA JEAN WILKIN, and jazz guitarist NOAH WALKER Saturday November 2nd 3:45 - 5:00 pm $8 TIX: Vancouver Museum Box Office 1100 Chestnut Street, Vanier Park Closed Mondays Thursday: 10 am - 9 pm All other days: 10 am - 4 pm Visa, Mastercard and bank cards accepted. http://www.vancouverstorytelling.org/ OH!!! If you get a chance to make it out to O A K R I D G E M A L L this Sat. October 26 & Sun. 27, you'll be in for a nifty suprise! I normally would tell ya to avoid malls like the plague, but the VSF has put together a series called MALLTALK, which I participated in last weekend in (eeek!) a mall in Surrey. Well, this weekend, you can check out one of my faves IVAN E. COYOTE (thanks for the WestEnder mention, Ivan!) along with storytellers Billy Teare, Joseph Naytowhow and Ginger Mullen. M A L L T A L K West Galleria, 650 West 41st Avenue at Cambie Street, Vancouver BC Here's the schedule: Sat Oct 26 1pm & 3pm Billy Teare/Joseph Naytowhow/Ginger Mullen Sun Oct 27 1pm & 3pm Billy Teare/Joseph Naytowhow/Ivan Coyote or go to http://www.vancouverstorytelling.org/MallTalk/oakridge.html for more info and remember! t h u n d e r i n g w o r d h e a r d http://www.thunderingwordheard.com is Vancouver's coolest Spoken Word/Music fusion weekly open mic series * winner of the WestEnder's "BEST IN THE WEST" Award for BEST OPEN MIC, 2001 * ADMISSION FREE (hat will be passed) EVERY SUNDAY NIGHT AT 9PM Artists performing sign up at 8PM @ CAFÉ MONTMARTRE A LICENSED PARISIAN CAFE 4362 MAIN ST. (MAIN & 28th) VANCOUVER, B.C. 604.879.8111 HOSTED BY T.PAUL W/DJDutchBoy Best, T.Paul ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Plan to Sell a Home? http://us.click.yahoo.com/J2SnNA/y.lEAA/jd3IAA/yqIolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To Post an Announcement regarding publishing, contests, readings, and any relevant literary news, send it to: canadianpoetryassociation@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: canadianpoetryassociation-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Poetry Discussion group is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/participoet CPA Resource Center moved to http://www3.sympatico.ca/cpa National CPA is the same at http://www.mirror.org/cpa The Electronic Bookstore is http://www.mirror.org/hmspress Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 12:58:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Jullich Subject: ERRATUM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In my previous message, for "ANTLER IN THE TREETOPS", please read: "ANTLERS IN THE TREETOPS" (not to be confused with the poet named Antler: http://www.cayuga-cc.edu/events/images/antlerpic.jpg). Thank you. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 13:16:55 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: it time to check your pockets for rockets In-Reply-To: <20021023194456.13082.qmail@web40806.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v546) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable it time to check you pockets for rockets isn't this a tortuous shadow . . . or instructions on the known=20 possible, a structure top production model to create bottom makers,=20 deep manuals made-up of speak-n-tell dementia diverting attention=20 getters from center stage colonization to the far edges of gravity.=20 fear, and or its binary sidecar rendezvous does the gender exam . . =93I = =20 have never been a member of the troubled, discarded or chopped up,=20 listed on the edge of experience, I have always been a member in good=20 standing at the local confession counter.=94 for a lack of no such thing=20= the construction reflects words reassmeblages that knows experience not=20= as a mirror but as prom time, =93what's your line=94 burnt at the=20 redemption party, simple partial fixation produces condom verbs. in my=20= version, I dismembered the case study and organize my sufi transistor=20 heart to the light, a world series consumes 83 per cent of the earth=20 noise. I get static or instant replays of humans doing animal sounds.=20 before which moments, a reduction stoic starts using simple almosts, =20 the same time it sounds sweat but its nothing but warm anguish pinned=20 on a murmuring crowd dressed as the homecoming undead. In fact, its the=20= often mentioned top ten hits from the continuation party and all are=20 welcome. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 13:37:56 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hilton Obenzinger Subject: Proud to Work at the University Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Dear Poetics, Recently, a Stanford Faculty Against the War committee was formed, and the other day the student newspaper reported on it. After quoting famed biologist Paul Ehrlich that the war "is one of the stupidest ideas our government has come up with in my lifetime," the article in The Stanford Daily goes on: "No Stanford professors that The Daily contacted expressed support for any sort of action in Iraq, and most of those contacted could not name a faculty member who did. "Such lack of vocal support for a preemptive strike against Iraq is particularly striking given that Bush's pro-war National Security Advisor, Condoleeza Rice was selected directly from the ranks of the University's faculty." Ah, Honor Restored. After all the talk about poets who work in "the academy," I just wanted to share this with everyone. I'm Academic and I'm Proud Say It Loud We Aint So Stupid as to Attack There Are Other Ways to Disarm Iraq (and Israel and Texas and . . .) Just Cause We Got One Megalomaniac Don't Mean We All Smoke Crack I'm Academic and I'm Proud Say It Loud Hilton Obenzinger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hilton Obenzinger, PhD. Associate Director of Undergraduate Research Programs for Honors Writing Lecturer, Department of English Stanford University 650.723.0330 650.724.5400 Fax obenzinger@stanford.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 17:56:59 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Craig Allen Conrad Subject: THIS THURSDAY!!!!!!!!!!!!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Frank Sherlock & CAConrad will read from their collaborative project titled THE CITY REAL & IMAGINED: Philadelphia Poems Thursday, October 24 @ 8pm MOLLY'S CAFE & BOOKSTORE http://www.mollysbooks.com is located at 1010 S. 9th Street (in the heart of the Italian Market) in Philadelphia (215) 923-3367 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 18:10:36 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: The Poetry Project Subject: Poetry Project Announcements Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable As announced last week, Jaime Manrique is sadly unable to teach his worksho= p this fall. We are, however, delighted to announce that Kristin Prevallet will now be teaching a Friday evening workshop, full details of which are below. *** THE POET RELATIVE TO THE WORLD - KRISTIN PREVALLET FRIDAYS AT 7 pm: 10 sessions, November 8th - January 24th "A workshop for students interested in writing and reading creative works that are engaged with the larger political, social, and personal issues of living in the United States in the year 2002. We will read works by poets from around the world and from different periods who draw from a variety of traditions--lyric, epic, formal, avant-garde--in order to confront the particular struggles of their times. We will practice a poetics from the realm of what =C9douard Glissant calls 'the entanglements of world-wide relation.'" *** The workshop fee is $300, which includes tuition for classes and an "individual" membership in the Poetry Project for one year. Reservations ar= e required due to limited class space and payment must be received in advance= . Please send payment and reservations (include your address, phone number an= d email) to: The Poetry Project, St. Mark's Church, 131 E. 10th St., NY, NY 10003. For more information, please call (212) 674-0910, or email: poproj@poetryproject.com *** The Poetry Project is located in St. Mark's Church in-the-Bowery at 131 E. 10th Street, on the corner of 2nd Avenue in Manhattan. Trains F, 6, N, R. The Poetry Project is wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. Please call (212) 674-0910 for more information, or e-mail us at poproj@poetryproject.com. *** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 23:09:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: ZECHARIAH MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ZECHARIAH Sector: 587 ---------------- u t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t* t m p 6 . t m p x \ P r o Sector: 673 ---------------- """ """DDD333DDDDDDUUUDDDUUUUUUUUUDDDUUUDDDDDD333333"""333"""333"""""""""""" Sector: 798 ---------------- EOFError', 'IOError', 'ImportError', 'IndexError', 'KeyError', 'KeyboardInterrupt', 'MemoryError', 'NameError', 'None', 'OverflowError', 'RuntimeError', 'SyntaxError', 'SystemError', 'SystemExit', 'TypeError', 'ValueError', 'ZeroDivisionError', '__name__', 'abs', 'apply', 'chr', 'cmp', 'coerce', 'compile', 'dir', 'divmod', 'eval', 'execfile', 'filter', 'float', 'getattr', 'hasattr', 'hash', 'hex', 'id', 'input', 'int', 'len', 'long', 'map', 'max', 'min', 'oct', 'open', 'ord', 'pow', 'range', 'raw_inp Sector: 806 ---------------- Jennifer heroin drugs down girl onto floor where we fuck there wood while she ties cock cocaine-you-know-me into needle world get codeine dreams lost among junkie heavens unbearable ecstasy kill way like drawn within inside put-you-in-me in-me in-you within-you inside-you put-you-inside crawled floors impossible highs incandescent those squeezed juice baby babe rand(25); hunger!\n lost-body-skins tracks...\n these Heroin takes back drug, me...\n park\n Reds < Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: ii MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ZECHARIAH ii Now what is of interest here, among us, is that I did not place Zechariah on the hard drive, nor have I read Zechariah recently; it is either the semblance of a hack, or the semblance of an originary distribution within WinXP home. Look to your own hard drives, check at sector 1016 and higher, search for Zechariah. Perhaps it is the beginning of the end, o Jerusalem, of which I have had suspicion; perhaps it is an annotation from the relig- ious among us. Of the materials, of the rest which I have placed there, emergent and fragmented, nothing standing out at 666. === ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 21:51:39 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dcmb Subject: Re: Mr. B MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What shirts? Sixty-nine and likking it, Broms -----Original Message----- From: George Bowering To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 12:30 PM Subject: Re: Mr. B >Yeah, I am also of a mind to say happy birthday, Brom. As a birthday >present, you can keep the shirts you took last time you were staying >here. >-- >George Bowering >Per ardua ad astra. >Fax 604-266-9000 > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 22:03:01 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: Re: Open call for Manuscripts: Futurepoem books In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v546) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Issue II of Avoid Strange Men will be released this weekend? In the second issue: =A0 Heroes an irregular column joshua mira goldberg A letter from the Women of Colour Collective A short poem contest A strange men to avoid word search Red Ochre, medicine for the heart a column by Gordon de Frane An article by kari edwards entitled Writing, Language and Community do=20= they Conflate? Writings By Cat, Holly Jonson, Keenan Pinder, Michelle Butot, Shape=20 Shifter, Kym, Toxic Avenger,Catherine Wilcox, Johnatan Alexander,=20 Julian Gunn, Dani Tallack,Marcus Skidley Greatheart, kris briggs, art=20 by miss, lyn davis, sarah gina jones and captain snowdon & our first attempt at including photography! =A0 copies will be available at bleeding rose and other locations around=20 town or by snail mail (just email me) =A0 queerly captain & Julian Issue II of Avoid Strange Men will be released this weekend? In the second issue: =A0 Heroes an irregular column joshua mira goldberg A letter from the Women of Colour Collective A short poem contest A strange men to avoid word search Red Ochre, medicine for the heart a column by Gordon de Frane An article by kari edwards entitled Writing, Language and Community do=20= they Conflate? Writings By Cat, Holly Jonson, Keenan Pinder, Michelle Butot, Shape=20 Shifter, Kym, Toxic Avenger,Catherine Wilcox, Johnatan Alexander,=20 Julian Gunn, Dani Tallack,Marcus Skidley Greatheart, kris briggs, art=20 by miss, lyn davis, sarah gina jones and captain snowdon & our first attempt at including photography! =A0 copies will be available at bleeding rose and other locations around=20 town or by snail mail (just email me) captain =A0 queerly captain & Julian captain ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 22:48:52 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Landscape Degree Zero / The Black Rock Desert Comments: cc: wlfox@earthlink.net, Anne Keyl In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20021023132330.0125f930@hobnzngr.pobox.stanford.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I want to suggest a new book, The Black Rock Desert, Text by William L. Fox and Photographs by Mark Klett (U of Arizona Press, 77 pages, $13.95). The Desert in question (in view) North of Reno and Pyramid Lake, 3 to 4K feet above sea level, a 400 square mile playa, "one of the largest unimpeded flat spaces in America", (a tiny portion of which is the annual home of Burning Man Festival). A place where nothing lives and any mark is erased by rain or wind. Absent of metaphor, absent of geological shapes, vegetation, or human habitat, the search to occasion a language and/or photographic image are put to the severest test. Klett's photographs and Fox's language - working with the barest of means - stake a close and revelatory contest. I find it an extraordinary rendering of legibility in the context of what must be one this continent's closest examples of sheer absence: "Formed by the abrupt boundary between air masses of two temperatures, mirages are frequent on the playa, where the air immediately above the ground is much hotter than just a few inches higher. The subsequent discontinuity causes light to bend, or refract, the most common effect being to reflect back the sky, an illusion that today was a blue line that thickened until it resembled a vast lake in front of us that stretched across the entire width of the playa. This was the kind of mirage Bruff wrote about, livestock crazed with thirst stampeding themselves to death for an optical apparition." Reading this book and getting immersed in its challenge to cope with such vastness brought up the lineage of sculptors (Robert Smithson, Walter Demaria, Michael Heizer and James Turrell) who - in a related manner - have also worked the Great Basin and sought to find a physical legibility in spaces that otherwise appear to mock (or certainly contest) the concept of human presence. In a way I see this little volume - and related photography by Klett and writing by Fox - as an extension of the work of those sculptors of the land. In relation to poetry - indeed the seventies and eighties attraction of many us to the works of Smithson and Demaria in particular (as well as a coincidental attraction to Barthes' Writing Degree Zero) it makes me want to ask if anyone has written critically about the influence of land artists and their impact on concepts of space (the page as bare landscape - if that is the connection) and the activity of writing (??). Stephen Vincent ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 01:28:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: A Defense of Poetry -- gabriel gudding Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed A publisher is selling a book. A Defense of Poetry (Pitt Poetry Series, Nov 2002) by Gabriel Gudding Items found in book: violence, some inmates hidden in a wig, a monolog by Ronald Reagan, letters to the man who stole my butt, 15-hundred word insult poem to *Louis Cabri, rifle assault on the mainstream/experimental dichotomy, on opponents to both narrative poetry and language poetry, dismissal of the state of Oklahoma. Robert Duncan's strabismus. Gabriel Gudding was born and raised in Minnesota, raised some more in Washington state, and resides in Illinois where he teaches poetics and creative writing at Illinois State University (home of Dalkey Archive). He's won awards. His partner, Mairead Byrne, lives in Providence, RI, where she teaches literature and poetry writing at the Rhode Island School of Design. Gabe's interests include American "new writing," aka experimental and avant-garde poetries and poetics, theories of comedy, contemporary poetry by women, the cultural formation of taste, and teaching in prisons. He is the author of A Defense of Poetry (Pitt Poetry Series, University of Pittsburgh Press, 2002). His essays, poems and short fiction appear in The Journal of the History of Ideas, VeRT, The American Poetry Review, The Nation, L'Bourgeozine, Fence, and elsewhere. The title poem, "A Defense of Poetry," is forthcoming in Great American Prose Poems: From Poe to the Present, Scribner 2003, edited by David Lehman. *insert your name here http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html http://www.aprweb.org/issues/mar01/gudding.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 00:31:34 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Mr. B In-Reply-To: <005301c27b19$0aa24240$fa96ccd1@CeceliaBelle> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Though on looking at the shirts you generally wear, David, I can see why you would prefer mine. >What shirts? Sixty-nine and likking it, Broms >-----Original Message----- >From: George Bowering >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Date: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 12:30 PM >Subject: Re: Mr. B > > >>Yeah, I am also of a mind to say happy birthday, Brom. As a birthday >>present, you can keep the shirts you took last time you were staying > >here. > >-- > >George Bowering > >Per ardua ad astra. > >Fax 604-266-9000 > > -- George Bowering Per ardua ad astra. Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 17:35:15 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: komninos zervos Subject: Re: Mr. B In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-12865BB; boundary="=======4AC872F4=======" --=======4AC872F4======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-12865BB; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit and you can send back the socks and underwear you took from my place the last time you visited. k At 05:31 PM 24/10/02, you wrote: >Though on looking at the shirts you generally wear, David, I can see >why you would prefer mine. > > > >>What shirts? Sixty-nine and likking it, Broms >>-----Original Message----- >>From: George Bowering >>To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>Date: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 12:30 PM >>Subject: Re: Mr. B >> >> >>>Yeah, I am also of a mind to say happy birthday, Brom. As a birthday >>>present, you can keep the shirts you took last time you were staying >> >here. >> >-- >> >George Bowering >> >Per ardua ad astra. >> >Fax 604-266-9000 >> > > > >-- >George Bowering >Per ardua ad astra. >Fax 604-266-9000 > > > > >--- >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.404 / Virus Database: 228 - Release Date: 15/10/02 --=======4AC872F4======= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-avg=cert; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-12865BB Content-Disposition: inline --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.404 / Virus Database: 228 - Release Date: 15/10/02 --=======4AC872F4=======-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 07:41:16 -0400 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: 'what me worry' our usual sources inform us that the Md sniper has all the signs of Mossad counterintelpro... & why were there no Israeli victims...the Israeli embassy has been asked to account for all Jews in the MD/DC area...for further info...contact the Bowery Poetry Club...let the spin begin..DRn.. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 08:06:31 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Loss =?iso-8859-1?Q?Peque=F1o?= Glazier Subject: Request for EPC Link Suggestions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed We are presently updating our list of EPC links to sites for innovative poetry (including print magazines, print publishers, poetry e-zines, etc.) and innovative new media works. We welcome suggestions from members of the list and will do our best to include all relevant suggestions, depending on volume. Please submit suggestions at: http://epc.buffalo.edu/forms/link.html Thanks! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 09:21:11 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sylvester Pollet Subject: New online mag (fwd) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ezra Fowler asked me to forward this to the list--please respond to him, not to me. Sylvester >Submission Guidelines > >Typehoe Magazine will debut in mid to late November 2002 as a quarterly >online magazine for art and literature. Submissions for Issue One must be >received by October 31st, 2002. Specific deadlines for future issues will b= e >announced on this site at a later date, but you may send materials for >future issues at any time. Please use email for sending materials. I only >accept electronic submissions unless other arrangements approved in advance= =2E > >The following guidelines are provided to assist those interested in >submitting writing or art to Typehoe Magazine. I am interested in poetry, >fiction, and art that is aggressive, unusual, personal, and brave. I am >seeking works that are clearly made in a personal moment. Send work that yo= u >might keep hidden from mom in your room, or use to win back your first love= =2E > >If you have work that does not meet the listed guidelines but is unique, >please inquire and include a letter explaining why the piece should be >considered for publication. I will review any writing or visual regardless >of form, especially if it is quirky, true, and blindingly expressive. > >Please email all submissions to the editor using: > >confess@theminister.net > >Put the word "submission" in the subject line and include your name (for >example: "subject: submission from YOUR NAME"). > >Poetry > >Poems may be of any length, with a maximum of 10 submissions per quarter. >All poems should be submitted simultaneously. Paste your submissions into >the body of an email. If formatting is unusual, supply multiple formats so = I >know if it is corrupted. Make sure to note the intended appearance of your >submissions in your cover letter if these are special considerations >involved. > >Fiction and Essays > >Essays or fiction should be limited to no more than two submissions per >quarter. Submit each work individually. Do not exceed 10,000 words unless >you can make a case for me to serialize a book. Generally, shorter works of >fiction are favored since readability issues often arise in an online >format. > >General Information > >All submissions previously, or currently appearing in other print or online >publications are highly discouraged as submissions. Typehoe Magazine is >committed to publishing original material from lesser known writers and >artists. In rare instances, I will republish works originally appearing in >other small print journals or personal sites pending legal issues involving >copyrights. If you are submitting a previously published work, be certain t= o >state the publication name, date, issue, and copyright status. > >Content > >Be bold or I will reject your work. There are no limitations on theme, but = I >prefer pretty, urban, industrial, intense, and rare works that are raw and >intelligent. Beat your paper out of its money in the corner. Tense and >academic writing will not be received kindly. > >Please pay attention to spelling and grammar. > >Note: > >Please include a short biography and contact info WITH the material. Keep i= t >short (50-100 words max) and flexible enough for continued use. Try to help >the readers understand your work. Most importantly, make sure that I can >reach you. > >Important >By submitting, the writer understands that work may be archived for an >unspecified and possibly considerable length of time and agrees with that >use. All property rights belong with the author. Requests to remove materia= l >from the archive will be honored > >Writing submissions will receive replies usually within 2-4 weeks. Rejected >works may receive a critique if they are borderline material. If you have >not received a reply within one month please contact me with an inquiry. > >Payment is not offered at this time. > >Art > >Unsolicited submissions of original art should be sent as .jpg or gif files= =2E >The editor in private will solicit most artwork used here. Photographs, or >samples of art, should be in jpg or gif format only and no larger than 600 = x >600 pixels. > >All art accepted will be for the forthcoming issue, and submitted files tha= t >are rejected will be destroyed after the works for the upcoming issue are >selected. I may ask to keep it for a later issue on a case-by-case basis. >Inquire about sending hardcopies if you cannot provide digital copies. > >Film, code, design, and all other forms of digital media are also accepted. > > > >NOTE: Your submitted work will only be published once Typehoe Magazine and >the author have agreed upon terms of publication. Acceptance of submitted >works will include a letter requiring the author's acknowledgment granting >Typehoe the right to publish works. > >This is a gallery style magazine dedicated to art and writing. The mission >of Typehoe Magazine is to expose artists in a high traffic web environment >while helping their respective networks intermingle. In this way, regional >talent can be seen on a national level and beyond. Through association, >exposure can be shared as community is built. Enjoy, and please tell your >creative friends to submit works for consideration future issues. > > > >Thanks and good luck, > >Ezra Fowler >Editor >Typehoe Magazine >confess@theminister.net > > > >=A9 2002 Typehoe Magazine. All works appearing in this site are property of >their respective owners. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 10:33:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Thompson Subject: Field, Lopez-Colome, Gander Reading 10/25 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Friday, October 25, in New York City, at 7PM >Miranda Field -- author of the glorious new book of poems, SWALLOW -- will be reading with the magnificent Mexican poet, and author of NO SHELTER, >Pura L=F3pez-Colom=E9 (who will read together with her translator, Forrest = Gander) >The reading will be in Sulzberger Parlor, which is in Barnard Hall >which is on Broadway at 117th Street (take the 1/9 to the 116th >Street/Columbia University station; the Barnard College campus is >located on the west side of Broadway) Hope to see you there. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 09:28:14 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hilton Obenzinger Subject: Re: group thot? Comments: To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 10:56 PM 10/23/2002 -0400, you wrote: > hilton..i don't really care all that much for WAR..but why are you so proud >of this u group-think and patting youselves on the back to boot...a kind of >ugly glad handing that i thot only Bush and his folk were capable of..harry.. Take a look at today's NY Times (and probably other papers) about how Rumsfeld/Wolfowitz have set up their own intelligence unit because they are dissatisfied with the work of the CIA and others in linking Iraq to al Qaeda: they are not getting the results they want to monger their war. Wolfowitz said that there is "a phenomenon in intelligence work, that people who are pursuing a certain hypothesis will see certain facts that others won't, and not see other fact that others will. The lens through which you're looking for facts affects what you look for." As Mark Twain said, "There are lies, damned lies, and there are statistics." I am waiting for Bennet and Himmelfarb and others to criticize Wolfowitz for being an academic nihilist. Bertolt Brecht pointed out that in times of fascism simply telling the truth in your own field, whether as a shoemaker or as a biologist (or as a poet), is an act of resistance. In the present anti-fascist front even parts of the CIA and Joint Chiefs of Staff know the difference between fabrication and reality. And even the vast bulk of the intellectual community -- not to mention the American public. You bet I'm proud. Hilton ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hilton Obenzinger, PhD. Associate Director of Undergraduate Research Programs for Honors Writing Lecturer, Department of English Stanford University 650.723.0330 650.724.5400 Fax obenzinger@stanford.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 13:39:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brandon Barr Subject: The Banner Art Collective announces redesign Comments: To: list@rhizome.org, webartery@yahoogroups.com, Director_Art@yahoogroups.com, spidertangle@yahoogroups.com, syndicate@anart.no, Text_On_line@yahoogroups.com, news@bannerart.org, new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu Comments: cc: Garrett Lynch MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ***Apologies in advance for cross-posting*** 24 October 2002 The Banner Art Collective (http://bannerart.org) has implemented a new design created by Garrett Lynch. The new design brings a vast number of improvements to the site, which collects and distributes net.art and poet= ry created according to the limitations of WWW advertising. The collection is now database driven and easily searchable. Each work i= s presented on a separate page, and more artist information is featured nex= t to each work. Viewers have always been able to access cut-and-paste html tags to place works from the collection on their own webpages, but now th= e site also offers users a php-driven script that, when added to any html document, serves randomly changing banners from the collection. In addition, the new design automates the submission process with an onli= ne form which artists can use to easily upload their works to the collection. There are also new frequently updated sections which contain news, links = to host and sponsor sites, and links to related research and art projects. Best, Brandon Barr & Garrett Lynch ---- The Banner Art Collective currently includes works by: arte_comprimido (Argentina) babel (Canada/UK) Brandon Barr (US) Ji B=EAt (France) Bruec (US) Christophe Bruno (France) Agricola de Cologne (Germany) Catherine Daly (US) Tom Dannecker (US) drivedrive.com Roberto Echen (Argentina) Joshua Goldberg (US) Lee French & Barry Small (UK) jimpunk (France) Kanarinka (US) Tamara La=EF (Belgium) Jessica Loseby (UK) Garrett Lynch (UK) Gerhard Mantz (Germany) Joseph Franklyn McElroy (US) Millie Niss (US) Alexandra Reill (Italy) Micha=EBl Sellum (France) Antoine Schmitt (France) Ana Maria Uribe (Argentina) ---- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 16:39:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: Request for EPC Link Suggestions MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT I may be just having a bemusing day but can't stop musing over the meaning of 'innovative poetry'. From a practitioner's perspective it's hard to imagine poetry that's not innovative? tom bell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Loss Pequeño Glazier" To: Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 7:06 AM Subject: Request for EPC Link Suggestions > We are presently updating our list of EPC links to sites for innovative > poetry (including print magazines, print publishers, poetry e-zines, etc.) > and innovative new media works. We welcome suggestions from members of the > list and will do our best to include all relevant suggestions, depending on > volume. Please submit suggestions at: > http://epc.buffalo.edu/forms/link.html > Thanks! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 14:09:20 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: Re: politically conservative poets Comments: To: penwaves@mindspring.com In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > >Reaganite poets? Don't know, but I do remember Allen Ginsberg getting into a >snit over William Jay Smith because the latter said he would never do anything >to embarrass his country --but does that make him a rightwinger? If William Jay Smith promised he'd never do anything to embarrass his country, why did he accept the LOC Poet Consultantship? <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "The university professes the truth, and that is its profession. It declares and promises an unlimited commitment to the truth." Jacques Derrida (Without Alibi 202) Aldon Lynn Nielsen George and Barbara Kelly Professor of American Literature Department of English The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 14:50:48 -0400 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: m&r...snobissme... (fwd) (fwd) -------- Forwarded message -------- Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 14:46:22 -0400 From: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Reply-to: nudel-soho@mindspring.com To: insider@lists.bookfinder.com Subject: m&r...snobissme... (fwd) -------- Forwarded message -------- Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 14:38:58 -0400 From: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Reply-to: nudel-soho@mindspring.com To: bookfinder@listserv.insider.com Subject: m&r...snobissme... nobody's bought my book of snobs...85.00 for a year..not snobissme 'nuf...should raise the price... just now...back from bank..yankee cap and untied shoes...pppppasssed the Pulitzer Prize Cartoonist...now with furred wife...NYyorker editior... he waved the other day...Hi...never can 'member his name...Hi...MAUS... brilliant guy...same background as moi.cartoonist d'artiste de comics....nabe for 20 years...he looks straight ahead like the nobody i am is nobody there... not that i take it personaLLy...he's a type...i'm a type...and the Furred Wife Type NYyorker Editor wouldn't prob. want to meet me nohow... but it gets me to membering the official Writers Club and restraurant in Budapest...a beatiful indoor couryard...waitered tables....sculpture among tress....bad Hungarian food served with slow disdain....birds chirping on the edge of darkness as winter approaches... they had the who's who list written in stone..who got the table by the door..who got the job...who got seated next to who...who greeted the undersectary of culture when he visited every six months..who made the toast...who slept with who to get to sleep with who... on the streets of soho..late fall afternoons...there's a cold spot in my heart..like i'm at the edge of history...the darkness surrounds us.....drive bob sd...DRn... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 15:39:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Geoffrey Gatza Subject: Re: Request for EPC Link Suggestions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Tom, I believe you are not reading how Loss interprets the term "Innovative" in regards to poetry. He is not meaning what you and I first see as avant garde poetry reaching for a new height, but innovative in means of production and delivery. Please read his book and it will become clear what he means is different that what you first, correctly, percieve. Once past this his studies open up to new methods of production in electronic forms. Best, Geoffrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Bell" To: Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 4:39 PM Subject: Re: Request for EPC Link Suggestions > I may be just having a bemusing day but can't stop musing over the meaning > of 'innovative poetry'. From a practitioner's perspective it's hard to > imagine poetry that's not innovative? > > tom bell > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Loss Pequeño Glazier" > To: > Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 7:06 AM > Subject: Request for EPC Link Suggestions > > > > We are presently updating our list of EPC links to sites for innovative > > poetry (including print magazines, print publishers, poetry e-zines, etc.) > > and innovative new media works. We welcome suggestions from members of the > > list and will do our best to include all relevant suggestions, depending > on > > volume. Please submit suggestions at: > > http://epc.buffalo.edu/forms/link.html > > Thanks! > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 15:49:59 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Craig Allen Conrad Subject: BANJO: Poets Talking, #1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This first issue of BANJO was to set the tone of the magazine. We did our=20 best to keep to the idea of conversation instead of interview. Of course, in the e-mail version the cover art is lost. And the poems which= =20 close the issue as well. Just the transcription of the conversation is=20 available here. Next week I'll send issue two, which features poets Molly Russakoff & Jim=20 Cory. Issue three is being recorded shortly by poets Buck Downs & Heather Fuller. ------------- Banjo =20 poets talking #1=20 =A9 copyright 2001 text by=20 Kyle Conner & CAConrad =A9 copyright 2001 cover art and detail on page 5 by Michelle Strader Available from the address below for $1.08 an issue, or ask your local independent bookstore to stock it. This is clearly not about making=20 money, donations of any kind are much appreciated. Banjo =20 poets talking is published by Mooncalf Press=20 POBox 22521 Philadelphia, PA 19110 MooncalfPress@hotmail.com ************* Let me be where it happens, let me be the hidden cells and silent if silence is all there is to say. I want to talk though. I want to talk to you. --William Bronk EDITOR=92S NOTE Breathing Another New Joyous Oration. Kyle Conner asked if BANJO was an=20 acronym. I said no, and he said he had the perfect words to make it one. The name came to me with less thought than feeling, which is another way= =20 of saying why and how are not easy. The original idea of BANJO is very=20 different from what you have in your hands today. I=92ve always wanted to w= ork=20 with the interview, but not in the traditional format. Years ago I picked u= p=20 Magical Blend Magazine where the pop star Donovan was interviewed. It was=20 then that I began reading only the questions, answering them for myself. Yo= u=20 can always go back to read the answers if you need to. Questions are always= =20 valid, when you think on it. Answers are subjective, no matter what the=20 answer. There=92s more than one way to anything, even my answer that answer= s=20 are subjective. Besides, it=92s fun answering those interview questions in=20= the=20 magazines, no matter what they ask. =93What was it like growing up on the=20 Yukon?=94 Ooops, true, I didn=92t grow up on the Yukon, but I like the idea= of=20 answering it anyway, and maybe you do too. So I wanted a magazine where a pair of poets are involved with the=20 interview process, but the one rule would be that no one may answer. A roux= =20 of questions for the readers. The possibilities seemed endless. Then=20 suddenly it seemed entirely too narrow. When I invited Kyle Conner to set=20 the tone of issue #1 with me, he helped vere the project towards a=20 conversation, and suddenly it was colorful and exciting again. Yes! That= =92s=20 it! We=92ll have a talk! It took the rug of formality from beneath us, and= =20 feelings and ideas were suddenly freed in the process. I=92m very glad I=20 involved Kyle with issue #1, and I=92m glad I=92m someone who learned quite=20= a=20 long time ago the importance of synergy and its many benefits. Working with= =20 someone often seems our highest purpose down here, or up here, depending on=20 your vantage. It was then that I decided to invite a different visual artis= t=20 to design a cover with each issue. At first I felt a plain cover, something= =20 stark. When I asked my friend Michelle Strader to do issue #1=92s cover she= =20 instantly said she wanted to do a Buddhist monastery, and that felt=20 auspicious, her not even needing to think on it. Welcome to issue #1. Feel free to comment or question by using either=20 the e-mail address or POBox. --CAConrad ************* Recorded live August 7th, 2001 Philadelphia, USA=20 in the poet Eleanor Wilner=92s living room while CAConrad was house sitting Poised on stewarding passage of non-alignment pact between soul and psyche,=20 Kyle Conner listens to the frequencies which radiate from all anima,=20 conflictual movement, vastness minutiae. He cannot pass up a fine meal, a=20 vintage film, a fearless flight of improvisatory wonder. Committed to the=20 belief that poetry is ultimately an extension of the way one lives, he=20 pursues that path of least resistance to the resolution harmony of love,=20 creativity, responsibility and wonder. CAConrad has a small cup of Philadelphia whenever leaving the city limits.=20 From anything else the acrid potion is made apparent. Poetry stevedore. Co-edits Frequency Magazine with Magdalena Zurawski. Most recent chapbook=20 (end-begin w/ chants) is a collaboration with Frank Sherlock. Forthcoming=20 books include Completely Frank (The Jargon Society) and advancedELVIScourse=20 (Buck Downs Books). ************* CAConrad: I=92ve always been fascinated by poets who are anonymous. I=92m=20 thinking about that poem you wrote on the South Street Bridge, and then=20 didn=92t sign it. There=92s something amazing about that. You really let g= o of=20 the work. How many of us are brave enough to do that? I can=92t imagine=20 writing a poem and NOT putting my name on it. Kyle Conner: Well it kind of called for it in that situation. That was a=20 poem for that bridge, and for Philadelphia. I felt fantastic that it was=20 used in a documentary, which showed me that it was useful. I wanted to do i= t=20 again--this public kind of poetry--but I never found another opportunity. =20 And maybe I=92ve grown out of it too. CA: Where did you get your first jolt for poetry? =20 KC: Ooooo, that=92s difficult. I think there=92s two points of reference. =20= One=20 is when you start doing it, and the other is when you realize you need to do= =20 it. And I started doing it in high school. The fascination began with=20 reading plays. The first writing I really did was writing monologues. I di= d=20 a little poetry, but it was mostly monologues. And I continued to write, an= d=20 I went to New York. But when I came back to Philadelphia to go to Temple=20 [University], I started writing poetry as a way to uplift myself. I would=20 get this incredible inspirational feeling. Then that street scene started i= n=20 Philly, oh, around 93-95, which fed my inspiration, and that=92s when I firs= t=20 felt =93I need to do this.=94 CA: Street scene? What do you mean by street scene? KC: When you were doing the North Star Bar Reading Series, and Scott Kramer=20 was doing the Last Drop Reading Series. That felt vital. My poetry=92s=20 changed, and my need to do poetry is different now. But that time, that=92s= =20 what really fueled me to do it. And reading it in public was a real=20 connection to my inner emotions. Getting it out in that way, because I was=20= a=20 much more orally directed poet back then. That=92s when Spoken Word was=20 getting credibility. CA: Were there any poets in particular you were reading at the time who also= =20 did this for you? KC: At that time it was probably Ferlinghetti and Ginsberg. I had read=20 Reality Sandwiches. That=92s the one where Ginsberg speaks constant poetry=20= as=20 he=92s driving across the country, and I thought that was incredible, to ope= n=20 the doorway, and let whatever he was seeing come in. The tape recorder was=20 on the whole time, you can read it in the writing. He=92s hearing reports=20 about the Vietnam War and he=92s speaking right into the tape recorder. So=20= it=20 was Ginsberg I was reading, and Kerouac. Back in high school it was=20 e.e.cummings and Anne Sexton, but that was before I discovered the Beats. CA: For poets our age, by the time we were in high school the Beats were=20 already a big part of pop culture, and you could easily get your hands on=20 them. What was difficult for me was getting my hands on anything else in my= =20 little backwater, redneck country town. Kafka was my first love, and the=20 only prose writer I can really say ever inspired me to write. As far as=20 poetry, the library had a shelf or two of the usual crap, poets who=20 discourage and bore more than they excite. It was the Beats who gave me my=20 first jolt! Ginsberg and Corso were great, but it was Bob Kaufman, Diane Di= =20 Prima and Philip Lamantia who really filled me, though Kaufman the most. Bo= b=20 Kaufman was more delicious than sex, and that=92s saying something for a 16=20 year old! THEN some amazing soul in my school invited the poet Molly=20 Russakoff to give a reading. She was the first poet I ever met. I can stil= l=20 remember that reading, more than any other poetry reading! She read this=20 amazing poem called =93The Essential Molly Russakoff=94 where she lists the=20= items=20 in her purse, and poems about her boyfriend Rat Lip who was working on the=20 black market selling stolen meat. And then this gorgeous little poem=20 published in The Paris Review. I shuffled up to her afterwards,=20 pathologically shy, but I NEEDED to ask her WHO I should be reading! She=20 said, without hesitation, I should be reading Alice Notley and Ron Padgett.=20 To this day I don=92t remember if she also said Joseph Ceravolo, or if I fou= nd=20 him through reading the others. No one I knew at the time had ever heard of= =20 these poets. And when the library ordered these books for me I was never th= e=20 same again. Every part of me seemed to lift in response to their words,=20 especially Notley=92s. I walked different, things tasted different. I had=20= a=20 boyfriend during this upheaval, I remember how the ignition of poetry made=20 sex bring me to tears while in this state of euphoria I can=92t explain. It= =20 was a brand of joy he didn=92t appreciate, I think it freaked him out. He=20 thought I was insane, oh well, I don=92t know. KC: I think we=92ve all had some kind of quintessential experience which tur= ned=20 us on to poetry. But I love that you had that with Molly, who is somebody w= e=20 know-- CA: --and it=92s hard to get better than Molly! She=92s a compelling reader= . It=20 was mind blowing for a teenager. I feel that=92s when I really woke up! I=20 always knew I wanted to write poetry, and really devote myself to it, but it= =20 wasn=92t until Molly Russakoff=92s reading, and getting those books she=20 suggested, that I really felt awake for the first time in my life! I still=20 feel there, completely in that energy! A few years later I moved to=20 Philadelphia where I met the poet Jim Cory who introduced me to a wealth of=20 books I hadn=92t even imagined. I feel very fortunate to have met these peo= ple. KC: I want to return to that idea of the Beats, and how they were so=20 important. We take that for granted, that the Beats were influential on us,= =20 but it just strikes me as interesting that at some point they won=92t be wha= t=92s=20 new anymore. And really what was happening concurrently with that scene was= =20 the New York School. But because of the way mass media works, and because o= f=20 that special savvy Ginsberg has, the Beats were more available, and that=92s= =20 what we were reading. Meanwhile there was Berrigan and Ed Sanders. CA: More than anything I want to win the fucking lottery so I can stock ever= y=20 small town library in America with books by Mina Loy, Lorine Niedecker,=20 Jonathan Williams, Eileen Myles and others. I guarantee you they WILL be=20 read! They WILL alter youth! But maybe it=92s unnecessary, now that we hav= e=20 the internet. I LOVE the internet! I like to think of kids in my small tow= n=20 where the roads are as dusty as the books, tapping into websites like The=20 Poetry Project or SUNY. It=92s an amazing thing, the internet. KC: Yeah, it=92s completely changed the landscape, and I think it=92s great=20= that=20 small town communities won=92t have to be in the dark anymore. It=92s great= with=20 all the online magazines, and who knows what will happen with that. CA: It=92s an exciting time for poetry. I wouldn=92t trade this time period= with=20 any other. There are so many different kinds of poetry going on, and I don= =92t=20 appreciate all of it, but I appreciate that it=92s all there. KC: That kind of feeds into this one idea I have. Part of me agrees, but I=20 feel LANGUAGE poetry has brought us to this place from which we can=92t turn= =20 back. I feel they=92ve stripped away the beauty from the language. They=20 really wanted to rip the language open and find the truth in it. They were=20 suspicious of it, and they were angry with it because of what was happening=20 with the [Vietnam] War. So I feel it=92s brought us to this place where all= =20 the limbs have been ripped off the statues. I=92m not writing now, currentl= y,=20 and that=92s why I=92m looking to comics to fill my artistic needs. I don= =92t=20 know, I just feel kind of depressed about it. CA: You were writing poetry very recently though. Those AMAZING things you=20 were leaving on my answering machine! KC: Thank you. CA: It=92s not as though you=92ve STOPPED writing, you=92re just in the quie= t part=20 of the cycle now, that=92s all. KC: That could be it. But also I look at a lot of poetry, and it seems to=20 reflect itself, and the poets reflect each other. And a lot of it is caught= =20 in New York. And it all seems to reflect these feelings of vagueness,=20 indifference, turmoil, confusion, and it=92s not beautiful, and that saddens= me=20 because I think language can be beautiful, and can sing, and can uplift. CA: Okay, let=92s get back to how ugly LANGUAGE poetry is. You don=92t thin= k=20 Lynn Hejinian=92s poetry is beautiful? I think her writing is fucking gorge= ous! KC: Maybe it=92s beautiful, but in an unsettling way. Because that=92s what= it=20 does, that=92s what it=92s designed to do is unsettle. Maybe I=92m just loo= king=20 back to poets like Shakespeare. Things were more stable then, and people=20 were more confident with their understanding of the world, and you can see=20 that in their art, and in their poetry, and in their music. It=92s so order= ed,=20 and so self-servingly beautiful. You listen to Bach, and it=92s just perfec= t,=20 it completely serves itself, and it moves in a circle and it comes back=20 around. If you listen to contemporary Jazz, it=92s real interesting because= it=20 seems to parallel contemporary poetry. For instance I read a poem by Anselm= =20 Berrigan, and I listen to a new Branford Marsallis song. The Branford=20 Marsallis tune meanders, and it makes these statements which are designed to= =20 question, but there=92s no answer given. Anselm Berrigan=92s poems move aro= und=20 the page in a very haphazard way, and it=92s beautiful, but I find it=20 frightening, and in a way saddening, not that that=92s a bad thing. It seem= s=20 to speak of a larger situation in the world of the Information Age, and=20 peoples=92 anxieties about what=92s happening, and the greater and greater=20 awareness of what=92s happening to the environment. CA: Maybe it=92s all anxious questions because we=92re understanding that it= =92s=20 the so-called answers men have had for centuries which have brought us to=20 this dark age. These are the very things that I think make it all very=20 exciting, this call and response with the world poets are creating. KC: Maybe it=92s not possible at this moment in time to be beautiful. Maybe= we=20 can=92t have pure beauty anymore. CA: Well now look at the Blues. The Blues are definitely not a picnic, but=20 they=92re beautiful. Billie Holiday is sad and lovely. There=92s something= =20 about the way the message comes across. It=92s very Buddhist, that idea of=20 walking joyfully with suffering. And I look at poets like Philip Whalen, wh= o=20 doesn=92t get nearly enough credit for how much influence he=92s had on poet= ry,=20 and he really embodies that idea of walking joyfully with suffering. KC: Maybe beauty is a subjective term. Maybe it=92s not worthwhile to use t= hat=20 term. CA: I=92m glad you=92re talking about beauty, because I=92m having this thin= g about=20 color. It=92s a pretty recent thing, this rendezvous with color. It=92s an= =20 awareness of color as provocative, spiteful, joyous, argumentative, daring,=20 seductive, even morbid echoes from every verb we flavor our world with. =20 Color as life forms in our midst, a separate intelligence. I had this=20 breakthrough dream a couple weeks ago with Blue. It was talking to me, yeah= ,=20 a Blue shirt, but it wasn=92t the shirt that was talking, it was the Blue. =20 There was a fuzziness, a blurry vibration where it=92s mouth was that would=20 disappear when it was quiet. And the voice was my own voice. And I didn= =92t=20 feel ignored by the other colors, maybe it was really me ignoring them. Blu= e=20 said it needed to tell me something, but then said nothing, like it was=20 really something I needed to find out on my own. I woke DAZZLED, feeling=20 color is this secret breathing world around us. I mean, you think you have=20 five Blue sweaters, but you don=92t have five Blue sweaters, you have five=20 sweaters, and you also have five Blues. Color communicates as direct as a=20 bird singing. KC: A month ago I was at the Art Museum, and I was staring at this yellow=20 flower, and it was a sunny day. I was thinking that color is light, and the= =20 color we see is what is reflected off an object. So the shirt is absorbing=20 all colors of light, except this one color, and that=92s the one that=92s=20 bouncing off, and that=92s the one you see. So, it is living, because it= =92s=20 light. Can you use it? Do you think you can use it somehow? CA: What do you mean use it? KC: For your poetry. CA: I=92m sure it will pop up eventually, but I=92m not one to be so deliber= ate. =20 I know poets who are deliberate, but for me it comes out when it comes out,=20 and I feel much of that is due to my undisciplined education-- KC: --unconventional. CA: Unconventional. My education in poetry has always been this intuitive,=20 obsessive process of exploring every bookstore and library and picking up=20 things and reading. And in the process internalizing very many very useful=20 tools along the way. That=92s why I find it difficult sometimes to talk to=20 poets who have a rather vigorous background, especially those from the MFA=20 writing programs, where they can name all the tools. I feel like a piano=20 player who never learned to read music, but I can play the music. KC: That=92s what=92s amazing about art, because everybody does it the way t= hat=20 they have to, and the poetry we write is an extension of who we are. The=20 poetry and the art is going to be just as unique and curious as the person. CA: It makes me sad when I hear people say it=92s something they could do=20 easier when they were children. They=92re confessing they=92ve lost somethi= ng. KC: Hmm, I think it=92s easier NOW! CA: Yeah, I find it much easier now. My childhood was all about guilt. =20 Which is one of those touchy subjects I was going to bring up. Do you think= =20 children draw us pictures because they feel guilty they can=92t pay the rent= ? KC: I love that question! I think I drew pictures to release aggression. I= =20 remember me and my brother got news roll from a newspaper company, I don=92t= =20 know how we got it. We=92d roll out a sheet and draw a huge war scene. It=20= was=20 live action art, because we were creating the art and acting it out. But wh= y=20 do you ask that question? Did you draw pictures as a kid? CA: Yeah, and I did it because I felt guilty I couldn=92t pay the rent. KC: That=92s amazing you were so sophisticated. CA: I don=92t think of guilt as very sophisticated. It=92s useless is what=20= it is. KC: No, but, that you were guilty you couldn=92t pay the rent. CA: Well we were poor. I saw how hard my mother had to work. KC: So you thought she could sell your pictures? CA: No, it was currency itself, or something. I don=92t really know anymore= . KC: That=92s interesting. Hm. I guess the thing I want to maintain from=20 childhood is wonder. The first person I heard talk about that was David=20 Baratier, who is this amazing, dynamic poetry force. He edits Pavement Saw,= =20 and every year he seems to have another contest under his umbrella. But he=20 used to talk about wonder, and how important it was for poets to engage in=20 wonder. A couple years later I came to a similar conclusion under my own=20 conditions. But it also has to do with busting up assumptions which I got i= n=20 tune with doing the Highwire Reading Series. I did not want it to be a=20 boring reading series, and that=92s why Greg [Fuchs] and I decided to write=20 those introductions, which were not going to be biographical, ass-wiping=20 introductions where you just list accomplishments. We just wanted to have=20 fun and catch everyone off guard. And then you e-mailed me the other day,=20 and you have this new quote in your sign-off, and it=92s from the Situationi= st=20 guy [Raoul Vaneigem], and he uses the word =93scandalous,=94 and I immediate= ly=20 thought =93YEAH!=94 He was talking about public actions, but I applied it=20 specifically to poetry. The way the world is now we=92ve GOT to be scandalo= us=20 with our poetry, we=92ve got to be angry with it, we=92ve got to deploy it i= n=20 scandalous ways, in disruptive ways. The Highwire Reading Series was a=20 motion towards that. More and more I=92ve thought I need to live my life th= at=20 way, to feed my irrationality and my wonder, because those are the things=20 that get suffocated by a capitalist society. You have to keep feeding=20 wonder, and continue to question, otherwise TV will tell you everything you=20 need to know, with it=92s advertisements fucking you up the ass. And the=20 politicians get to look good on the news. I mean, how dare they tell me tha= t=20 a missile defense system is a good thing! CA: It=92s all lies. I=92ve been working in retail for a number of years no= w. =20 It=92s one of the ways I=92ve tried to survive in this country, to find the=20= job=20 with the least psychic impact, to keep me free to read and write. But let m= e=20 tell you, it=92s a joke. There=92s nothing in this system which has low psy= chic=20 impact. And retail really makes a liar out of you. You=92re a fucking liar= =20 all day long. If I want to keep my job I can=92t tell a rude customer to fu= ck=20 himself. I=92ve worked retail in Rittenhouse Square with all those fascist=20 rich motherfuckers! I should be given a fucking medal for not hurting three= =20 or four of them! KC: Yeah, and the sad thing is you wind up lying to yourself. 80% of the=20 population might think they have what they need, but they=92ve been swindled= . =20 80% of the population needs therapy. I feel really angry about this. And I= =20 think art is a way to subvert the system. And there=92s so much more to do. CA: But at the same time I can=92t help thinking how marvelous things are to= o! =20 We have telephones and airplanes and buses. If we were alive 2,000 years=20 ago, we=92d be stuck in the same damn village with the same goddamm dozen=20 people our whole lives! I mean, I=92m 35 years old and feel like I=92ve liv= ed 10=20 lifetimes when I start to think about all the circles and cycles of people=20 who have been part of my life. My life experiences have been formed in the=20 belly of capitalism like other Americans. Weighing it though, its oppressio= n=20 is greater than its good. KC: You and I though, I think we=92ve achieved this vantage of wonder. I do= n=92t=20 feel arrogant about it, I=92ve worked hard. I=92m an artist, but I=92ve bee= n in=20 therapy, I=92m doing work on myself physically and emotionally, and it=92s a= long=20 hard road. I agree it=92s a gray world, there are beautiful things about it= ,=20 and there are hideous things about it. And sometimes they go hand in hand. CA: I feel grateful to have poetry in my life. I was trying to bring this u= p=20 at a party I was at. And I guess I got on the wrong road with this when I=20 said, =93I wish everyone was a poet.=94 Boy did I get a whipping for that.=20= But=20 what I really mean is, I wish everyone could get a hold of their creative=20 force, and since the center of my universe is poetry, it=92s the first thing= =20 that comes to mind. I think creativity is the one sure thing that everyone=20 wants. People have come up to me after a poetry reading to say =93I wish I=20 could do that.=94 So I always say to them that they should start reading=20 poetry. If anything will get you to write poetry it=92s reading poetry. Th= at=20 magical track you set yourself into, or rather, give yourself to. I=92ve ev= en=20 had poets tell me that they don=92t want to read poetry because it will=20 interfere with their process, or some such crap. I just think it=92s=20 ridiculous that there=92s that much selfishness that one would completely=20 ignore poetry so that one could write it. As soon as someone tells me=20 this--and it=92s more common than I realized--I just slip away from the=20 conversation. I can=92t imagine talking to a poet who isn=92t interested in= =20 discovering poetry. KC: I think there=92s poetry in everything. Sometimes I go into an intense=20 film phase, or like now I=92m checking out comics because I get to a full po= int=20 with poetry and can=92t read anymore for awhile. I don=92t think I won=92t=20= go back=20 to it, it=92s just a matter of resting up. CA: Getting back to this idea I was trying to get across at the party. The=20 elitism in the art world is extraordinary. There are times I overhear=20 certain artists talking and it sounds like they don=92t want anyone else to=20= try=20 what they=92re doing. It=92s almost as if we need to make art which confron= ts=20 the art world. Like a job interview I had to be a union organizer, and the=20 interviewer said =93We=92re looking for DEDICATED workers who will work 60-7= 0=20 hours a week for the union!=94 And I said, =93Whoa! Sounds like you need a= =20 union for your union workers!=94 But where art is most elitist is when art=20 becomes commodity. And the compromises in that are problems for the artist=20 as much as for the buyer. I look at cultures like Bali, where the word=20 =93artist=94 doesn=92t exist in the vocabulary! How amazing is that!? But=20= if you=20 look at how people in Bali live, everything=92s beautiful, everything, becau= se=20 everyone is making art, making their world beautiful together. They don=92t= =20 need a word like =93artist=94 because everyone already is one. They don=92t= =20 separate one another in that most horrible of ways. To them art is part of=20 being a human being! KC: These are worlds which are still involved with ritual. If you listen to= =20 a field recording of African drummers, it is their art, but it=92s not separ= ate=20 from their ritual, and that=92s what makes it beautiful. But in a capitalis= t=20 society, certain artists have decided to survive by selling their art, but=20 then they also start to sell away their inspiration, their purity, you know.= =20 They=92re selling away the personal usefulness for the art, because they=92r= e=20 trying to figure out =93Who might want this?=94 And they=92re growing furth= er and=20 further away from the organic nature of the art. CA: Capitalism keeps winning new territory. KC: That=92s kind of like that discussion we had with Frank Sherlock at one=20= of=20 the poetry readings. And it was really a good discussion for me because at=20 first I was just playing devil=92s advocate. You and Frank were talking abo= ut=20 how we need to resist globalization, it was around the time of the big WTO=20 conference in Canada. And I said, =93What if we just let globalization occu= r,=20 wouldn=92t it kind of burn itself out because soon there would be no more=20 markets?=94 He and you started talking about all these things that are=20 happening now, and then I thought maybe there will never be a dearth of=20 markets, because new generations will constantly be born. And for me, that=20 was the first time I realized we really do need to fight against=20 globalization. So, I thought that was valuable. And maybe there is a way t= o=20 win. CA: Well I feel creativity is the way. When I look at ALL the art students=20 today I get so excited! There=92s never been another time in western histor= y=20 where there have been this many art students! And I=92m excited about that=20 because you can=92t have change without creativity! And there=92s NO WAY th= ey=92re=20 ALL going to fit into that narrow market for art! The ones who are lucky or= =20 unlucky--I say lucky--to not get into that market, those are the ones who ar= e=20 going to have to DO something with their art with the rest of us together. =20 There=92s going to be some amazing community building in the near future, I=20 feel it! Hopefully everyone=92s not going to just put art behind us and wor= k 9=20 to 5 everyday. We=92re living in an explosive time period for human=20 development! KC: That=92s cool! There are so many artists. And it=92s happening already= ,=20 there=92s just an overflow of art, there=92s just too much! But a lot of it= =20 scares me, which is good too! A couple of things seem to be getting big,=20 manga, which is Japanese influenced cartooning. Video art, graffiti,=20 pornography is changing-- CA: --pornography is changing? KC: Yeah. CA: You would think I would know, considering where I work. KC: I read about this porno that=92s being filmed at Harvard. And it=92s an= =20 avant guard critique of pornography, and it=92s called The Staxxx. The stac= ks=20 is what they call a specific place in their library, and it=92s this=20 mythological place where all the students have sex. The professors were=20 being interviewed and they thought it was great, saying, =93We teach them to= =20 critique text, and pornography is a text, so....=94 And now they=92re makin= g a=20 porno, and I think it=92s great! It=92s got lesbians in it, it=92s cool. B= ut my=20 point is, this is oozing out everywhere. CA: This Harvard thing just pushes all my buttons. Especially my class=20 buttons. I always had this naive idea of college as a place where everyone=20 is thinking out loud, expanding the world=92s ideas. And then I read about=20 Elizabeth Bishop teaching poetry there, I=92m pretty sure it was Harvard. A= nd=20 she was appalled by the amount of television commercials that appeared in he= r=20 students=92 poems. And she=92d see them in the student lounge watching soap= =20 operas. But this is all about my disappointments of looking at an expensive= =20 education wasted on people who don=92t need to understand the value of the=20 money that got them there. KC: What=92s wrong with television commercials in poems? That=92s very New=20= York=20 School, it=92s very Pop Art. Look, I think this porno is a great thing! I=20 think Harvard students are aware of the tenuous situation they=92re in. I=20 mean, you=92re born into what you=92re born into. And I wouldn=92t turn dow= n the=20 opportunity to go to a school like that. But now they=92re going in with a=20 more cynical attitude, =93I=92m a Harvard student, and everyone=92s going to= know=20 I=92m a Harvard student, let=92s do a porno!=94 I think that=92s a good ide= a. Maybe=20 the institutions are changing too. CA: Yeah-yeah, whatever. KC: I like the idea of creativity as a tool to cope with the world, to chang= e=20 the world. It never occurred to me until recently that that=92s an attribut= e=20 which I possess. I guess I always took it for granted that I was a poet and= =20 that was always kind of inexplicable. But that stems from creativity, which= =20 is an energy. And you can cultivate it. You can watch movies, listen to=20 music and read poetry and that just feeds it. And then you can give it back= =20 by making your art or writing your poem. We=92re just approaching problems=20= in=20 a non-conventional way, which is what we need now. It just seems now that=20 politics is a caricature of itself, and everything they do is predictable. =20 All their language is double-talk. CA: All the time we spend watching that goddamm television and there=92s all= =20 these bigger problems they refuse to call news. I mean, the prison industry= =20 is Goliath! An industry the Republicans and Democrats built together! And=20 the numbers of people I talk with who know nothing about it astounds me!=20 KC: I=92m one. CA: They=92re brainwashed by these television programs, what=92s it called,=20= Cops.=20 President Bush says that no one in Texas has ever been wrongfully put to=20 death, but we=92re now hearing things, like what my friend Kathleen [Knight]= =20 has informed me about, where more than 40% of death row inmates who have had= =20 their DNA tested have been found innocent! We=92re worried about the price=20= of=20 gasoline while we=92ve got prisons on the stock market, and many corporation= s=20 and companies working within that system. We have been having=20 record-breaking layoffs in America, but meanwhile they=92re building new=20 factories inside the prisons. We=92ve got Microsoft being packaged by=20 prisoners, Spalding Sports Supplies being packaged by prisoners, Eddie Bauer= =20 clothing being stitched by prisoners, TWA has prisoners doing flight=20 reservations by phone from their cells. The list of companies joining this=20 slave trade is just getting longer and longer. I was at the Quaker Meeting=20 Hall recently for a talk called =93Women in Prison=94 where they said that t= he=20 average wage in prisons is 14=A2 an hour! Hell, you=92d make more money wor= king=20 in a General Motors factory that moved from Michigan to Mexico! I think=20 they=92re making 40=A2 or 50=A2 an hour down there. And what we=92ve done a= nd=20 continue to do to Mexico is simply unconscionable! America deserves whateve= r=20 bad wind is blowing our way. It=92s difficult trying to talk to my family=20 about these issues because all they hear is the television news saying how=20 fucking great everything is! But we wear a pretty sad emblem. KC: Well, news is all pretty much manufactured. CA: Yeah. This present situation with the prisons is a capitalist wetdream,= =20 getting people to work for nothing, and fire those on the outside whenever=20 they demand a decent wage! And if a factory doesn=92t move into a prison it= =92s=20 moved down to Mexico. My father has been through half a dozen factories=20 since president Clinton pushed NAFTA through. They work the hell out of the= =20 workers, telling them what a great job they=92re doing, meanwhile they=92re=20 secretly raising funds to move the factory to Mexico. By the hard work the=20 workers do, they lose their jobs. Something incredible, something pretty=20 fucking beautiful has got to come out of this! KC: In terms of rage, I think Alice Notley is really enlightening. =20 Especially in that book Mysteries of Small Houses. Her rage is so apparent,= =20 and so clearly and immediately expressed. She=92s got so many great lines i= n=20 that book, and one of them comes when she=92s reading labels in a store or=20 something and she says, =93it=92s impossible not to be complicit.=94 And I=20= find=20 that right on. And that=92s part of seeing the world as it is, seeing the=20 world as gray. So when I eat my chocolate bar, I know maybe it was created=20 out of slave labor. But I think realizing that is a good place to work from= =20 with your anger. If you know that most things are problematic, then you kno= w=20 what you have to work with. And that feeds back into what I said I=92m hear= ing=20 in contemporary Jazz and poetry. Anger and stagnancy and creativity all=20 mixed together. We=92re in this mixing pot. We=92re not moving forward so=20= much=20 as posing the questions. I think that=92s where a lot of art is right now,=20 it=92s in the questioning stage. I think a lot of the last century was abou= t=20 expansion, starting with Whitman, and working on up to the Beats. And it=20 stopped with this extended era of inquiry with LANGUAGE poetry. Inquiry int= o=20 language itself, and the whole ontology that language poses to human beings.= =20 And now we have this whole lexicon to work from, and what=92s next I don=92t= =20 know, but it=92s exciting. CA: I do like to hear the LANGUAGE poets read. And I like to read them, and= =20 let their words wash over me. Something marvelous always itches, and I get=20 involved in the mystery of how things lodge themselves in us. The first tim= e=20 I heard Sarah Vaughn sing =93Motherless Child=94 on the jukebox it entered m= e and=20 will never enter me again any other way but that way. I=92ve spent my adult= =20 life convinced if I could just stand a certain way, lack a certain amount of= =20 sleep, have a beer, a cigarette, open a window that=92s been closed for seve= ral=20 years, tear back the bedsheets, imagine my feet pickled in sweat, breathe so= =20 deep it hurts, praise nothing for 48 hours, inch across the room on my bare=20 knees, sell and burn 13 loved books, imagine my loved ones hung and butchere= d=20 in the yard, tell myself it=92s not my throat it=92s borrowed crepe paper an= d=20 glass, but still, STILL, after all this, the song STILL enters me the same=20 way as the first. KC: Jesus! Well, I like your train of thought about how things enter you,=20 because that=92s what art does--especially music--it comes in under your rad= ar.=20 And you need it in a certain place and it never changes. You always hear i= t=20 the same way, it always brings up the same ideas. I=92ve been thinking abou= t=20 how I create art, which is similar. Wherever you are in the moment, that= =92s=20 how you=92re going to connect with the art. Right now I=92m in this fallow=20 period with poetry, but sometimes lines of poetry will come to the top of my= =20 head. And I=92ll think, if I wrote that line down now I could write a whole= =20 poem, but I=92m just not motivated to do a whole poem, so the line sort of=20 grumbles to itself and then goes back down. So that poem in that moment wil= l=20 never be written. CA: Sounds like murder! KC: Hey I can=92t serve every line! I think Ted Berrigan did do it as best=20= he=20 could. He had something going on everyday, and he said you should never pas= s=20 up the moment of a poem. CA: I AGREE WITH TED! KC: Well, yeah, I hear you I hear you. CA: Did you ever think about just jotting that one line down? KC: Sometimes I do, but I am not in the service of my art. My art is in the= =20 service of me. I am in control, most of the time. CA: What? Tell me more about that, I need to hear more. KC: Well, I don=92t want my art to consume me. I think that it has in the p= ast=20 when I absolutely needed to do it to get by. And that=92s desperate, and I=20 don=92t want to live in desperation. I=92ve worked up to the point where I=20= have=20 a stable job, and I=92m in control of my life, which I like. I think there=20= are=20 several cliches about artists that need to be broken, which goes along with=20 this idea of busting up assumptions, even assumptions about art. You don= =92t=20 have to suffer to be an artist, you don=92t have to live in destitution, you= =20 don=92t have to be mentally fucked up, and you don=92t have to live for the=20= whims=20 of your poetry. I think you can live a fulfilling life and be happy and you= =20 can be an artist. I guess I=92m trying to create a new paradigm for being a= n=20 artist. And that to me seems to be a responsible artist. Because if you= =92re=20 not in control of your life, if you=92re leaving your life up to the whims o= f=20 your work, then you=92re never going to work in your full potential because=20= you=20 won=92t have the control you need to direct it where you want it. CA: Artists who are fucked up and poor in this culture tend to be dedicated=20 folks. I had mentioned Bali earlier, and it=92s good to bring their culture= up=20 again because they don=92t have these cliches of the artist because they=92r= e all=20 working together. Art is about awareness, and the captains of our ship don= =92t=20 like that. When everyone is creating together, it=92s a FORCE that will mov= e=20 many things in many ways. But I want to get back to your idea about the=20 desperation of creating art. It seems to be more a symptom of everything=20 around us not working the way we want. Where are the fears that come clear=20 in that? Could you be equating desperate times with a desperate approach to= =20 creating art? I mean, in desperate times, nearly everything you approach is= =20 done in desperation. KC: It wasn=92t conscious. The desperation wasn=92t with creating the art,=20= it=20 was with my life. And poetry became an outlet to express terror and sadness= .=20 At that time I considered myself a Beat-like poet, who would live in the=20 moment, and probably never be in control of my life. Like Ginsberg did, and= =20 Kerouac, which was the height of the Beat ideal, to fully juice the moment.=20= =20 Like Ginsberg writing HOWL in 72 hours while on amphetamines, and Kerouac=20 typing on these endless rolls of paper. That=92s how I kind of viewed mysel= f. =20 So I think that was desperate, because it was giving up my life in a way,=20 giving it over to art. It doesn=92t matter what you give over to, it=92s st= ill a=20 loss of control, whether it=92s drugs or art or TV. Not to say that the art= =20 you create in that environment wouldn=92t be brilliant, but you can create=20 brilliant art without that, and that=92s what I want to do. CA: Okay. KC: But about these ideas that get submerged because I don=92t feel like=20 creating in that moment, I find it interesting how art is completely=20 contingent. And that=92s why every poem is so precious, because you would=20 never create it that way again. It=92s like a living creature. So when one= of=20 these thoughts surfaces like a fish, then goes back in the water, I guess I= =92m=20 sad for a minute, but I=92m confident enough to know there=92s this steam en= gine=20 running beneath the surface. You can feel yourself percolating and you know= =20 things will come out when you need them to. CA: I=92m often late for things because I=92m not as interested in being on=20= time=20 as I am in stopping on the sidewalk to write a line down before it=92s lost.= I=20 don=92t think anything=92s more important than poetry and doing my best to g= et it=20 down. So what if I=92m late for work, big fucking deal! Did you ever write= =20 poetry on the toilet? KC: Rarely, if at all. Does that work for you? CA: Well I think I=92ve definitely written my share of lines on the toilet!=20= A=20 few of the FRANK poems were written on the toilet. KC: Wow. Now, is this before you release, or is it the anticlimax where=20 you=92re relaxing after the exertion? Because sometimes before I actually m= ake=20 my movement, I find that to be a kind of anxious time. Sometimes I=92ll bri= ng=20 reading material, but then sometimes I just want to enjoy it, because it=92s= =20 pleasurable to take a shit. If I read I feel like I=92m not really enjoying= =20 the moment. CA: (laughing) Well I=92m a vegetarian. I eat too much brown rice to be=20 waiting around for things to happen. Those FRANK poems are pretty short you= =20 know. KC: Good for you. Hm. Well, I=92m getting this image of a poet living in a= =20 world that=92s speeding by, somebody like Ted Berrigan really wanting to be=20 there all the time. I think that=92s admirable in a way. I think he really= =20 did want to catch every poem. CA: And he did a beautiful job! KC: Yes, but unfortunately I think he neglected other things, like his healt= h=20 for instance. CA: I think it=92s Freud who said, =93Everywhere I go I find a poet has been= =20 there before me.=94 Poetry is so much about really being in the world, gett= ing=20 to know everything around you. Benjamin Franklin is a great inspiration=20 because he showed how we need to utilize every possibility of our time in=20 order to find the new, make the new push out and forward. But then there= =92s=20 also Elvis Presley, who taught us not only about love, but how to be without= =20 time, to be beyond time, which then feeds the Franklin idea of getting our=20 hands on the world while we=92re alive, no matter what! KC: Well Franklin was more a pragmatist, and Elvis was more a spiritual=20 force. I think this is valid. You have to have both I think. You want to=20 be the pragmatic person who can see what=92s going on, but at the same time=20= you=20 want to let yourself surprise yourself. And to keep upsetting your own=20 perceptions about what is going on. Poets I think are on the avant guard. =20 Like Freud said we=92re always there first. I think poets are ahead of othe= r=20 artists. But maybe I=92m just being-- CA: --you=92re biased. KC: Biased, yeah. CA: There=92s plenty of visual art that=92s right there with us. I am think= ing=20 about what you were saying earlier about just how much art there is. And=20 I=92ve had conversations with artists, particularly poets, who are dismayed=20= by=20 all this, like it=92s too much competition or something. As though any=20 advancement someone else makes will move them back. It=92s simply not true,= =20 but seems a terrible thought pattern to be alive in. The truth of the matte= r=20 is there IS an enormous amount of art and poetry being produced, so much in=20 fact that we may well be living in the age where being famous is no longer p ossible. And what a relief it will be when everyone understands that. You=20 go into any bookstore and see the dozens of new poetry books being published= =20 each week! And this to me seems to be from class structure breaking down. =20 Working class and middle class kids taking up art. Art isn=92t just for ric= h=20 kids anymore. It isn=92t just for rich people to buy anymore. Fuck the ric= h,=20 art is coming home! And the more of us there are creating art, the more of=20 us will create a safer space for those who are a little daunted by the idea=20 of doing it! And it=92s such an American thing, this idea of living beyond=20= the=20 class structure which has held Europe in the fist of inertia. Whether the=20 idea of our classless society was a boldface lie or not isn=92t the point, t= he=20 point is that many Americans believe it, and belief is much more potent than= =20 facts. I could wet myself thinking about what lies ahead for us. And=20 America, with all it=92s problems, is opening up art with every race and cre= ed=20 right now. It=92s amazing, and we=92re all so lucky to be a witness to this= =20 transformation. Things can only get better through art. KC: Are you familiar with Work Poetry? The best known of these poets I can=20 think of is Philip Levine. It=92s poetry that=92s written about work, often= =20 times taking place in factories. And it=92s so specific that it=92s=20 self-serving, you know, these people write it so they can better understand=20 what it is they are doing. Some of it=92s so beautiful when it gets into th= e=20 intricacies of some particular factory job, and how the hands move, and=20 making it beautiful and valuable in that action. It=92s one of these veins=20= of=20 art that has been useful. CA: I wish my father would write poetry. He has all this desire and beauty=20 and anger that comes out of him in the most sublime ways when he speaks. Th= e=20 disappointments of this ridiculous capitalist system have given way to him=20 really understanding himself, and I do mean all that is himself. And if=20 everything was just as he had originally hoped it would be, and if he were=20 more secure the way he had intended, he may not have come to this clarity. =20 And I know he knows this as much as I do about his life. We=92re just going= to=20 die one day anyway, we might as well allow ourselves the opportunity to pull= =20 the veil back a bit and take a peek. KC: Sounds good. CA: I used to wonder if my father was digging a hole or opening his life? =20 And how easily does this relate to borrowing a cup of sugar from 16th centur= y=20 London? Cross genres. Cross time frames. Cross the railroad tracks and ge= t=20 it out already! KC: That=92s interesting. I think even Shakespeare was destitute at times.=20= A=20 lot of his sonnets were about how he didn=92t have enough money, =93When in=20 disgrace with fortune and men=92s eyes...=94 It=92s about how he feels shit= ty=20 because he doesn=92t make a lot of money, but in the end he realizes he has=20= a=20 friend and the friend is worth any king=92s status. CA: I was sitting near someone recently waiting for a subway car and caught=20 the end of his sentence, which was, =93--about as real as a poem!=94 Well n= ow, I=20 wanted to know whether that meant things are real if they=92re like a poem,=20= or=20 if they=92re not real if they=92re like a poem. And he exclaimed =93NO a po= em=20 isn=92t real!=94 and he seemed rather disgusted with the idea that I would e= ven=20 be confused about what he meant. I=92m glad I asked him though, because I=20 really want to know what people think about the world I consider real. =20 Frankly I can=92t think of anything more real than poetry. You=92ve got it=20= all=20 there, it=92s vitamin fortified! KC: Well, I don=92t know what real is. Poetry is as real as anything else.=20= =20 But it sounds like his idea of real is pretty boring. CA: He=92s allowed to be boring. KC: I think a lot of people lack creativity because it=92s been sucked out o= f=20 them. I see all these people around Philadelphia who live in the club scene= ,=20 or they go out to a lot of bars, and that=92s their lives. And that=92s the= ir=20 entertainment, gossiping, and it must be boring. Their lives are terrible,=20 so they=92ve got to submerge any misgivings. What are you doing over there? CA: (rips out Act V of Shakespeare=92s King Lear, then folds it once, twice,= =20 and administers five staples from a staple gun.) KC: Conrad has just ripped King Lear apart. CA: Act V, just Act V. I=92m sending Lear=92s 5 Nevers away to summer camp. KC: Summer camp!? CA: Yes, there=92s a nice lake so Cordelia may rest her weary self. I=92m a= =20 little weary of her not resting her weary self. And there=92s a margarita=20 machine outside each cabana, each machine holds 1,500 margaritas. It=92s a=20 swell place. I think it will be good for the 5 Nevers. KC: How are you going to send it? CA: It=92s packed up. KC: Is it there? CA: Oh I don=92t know for sure. Once you send something away you=92re never= sure=20 if it shows up or not. My mother always thought I was going to school, but=20= I=20 was really going to the corn fields to smoke pot. Maybe the 5 Nevers are=20 really in a corn field somewhere while I=92m fantasizing King Lear hunting=20 quarters for the margarita machine. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 19:10:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: Request for EPC Link Suggestions MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Geoffrey, I wasn't intendingto take Loss to task here. I did get a lot from his book as my forthcoming review will I think make clear. I was just hoping to start a general discussion here of something substantive rather than the top-of-the-head sniping I've been seeing here recently. tom bell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Geoffrey Gatza" To: Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 3:39 PM Subject: Re: Request for EPC Link Suggestions > Tom, > > I believe you are not reading how Loss interprets the term "Innovative" in > regards to poetry. He is not meaning what you and I first see as avant garde > poetry reaching for a new height, but innovative in means of production and > delivery. Please read his book and it will become clear what he means is > different that what you first, correctly, percieve. Once past this his > studies open up to new methods of production in electronic forms. > > Best, Geoffrey > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Thomas Bell" > To: > Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 4:39 PM > Subject: Re: Request for EPC Link Suggestions > > > > I may be just having a bemusing day but can't stop musing over the meaning > > of 'innovative poetry'. From a practitioner's perspective it's hard to > > imagine poetry that's not innovative? > > > > tom bell > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Loss Pequeño Glazier" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 7:06 AM > > Subject: Request for EPC Link Suggestions > > > > > > > We are presently updating our list of EPC links to sites for innovative > > > poetry (including print magazines, print publishers, poetry e-zines, > etc.) > > > and innovative new media works. We welcome suggestions from members of > the > > > list and will do our best to include all relevant suggestions, depending > > on > > > volume. Please submit suggestions at: > > > http://epc.buffalo.edu/forms/link.html > > > Thanks! > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 21:27:53 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lakey Teasdale Subject: Never in heed: warmth of the chill. Outside Virginia Comments: To: "WRYTING-L : Writing and Theory across Disciplines" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Never in heed: warmth of the chill. Outside Virginia =20 Fine, thanks. Thank you All very much except for the permanent. Apprehension veers dry, warm, chilled off-course. To the marrow. An Empress of Nightingales frets. the species invincible visible Make a distinction. Does not. Even if you know how to swim the rule is quite simple. You just, and so simply: cling to the wreckage. The wrecks. How oil spills: slick killing of birds. Quieter, softer perhaps further north? Quieter. Or just quiet. Just quit. Easy to overlook semi-deponents of night in gales easy to overlook suffocation, invention, the ancestors, numbered, like scorpions, snakes and/or scorching dry ice. Oot =F3 t=F8n or perhaps Oot =F3 t=F8n or perhaps All of which means: travelling by tra vel ling by. Wings? or by chair? by Water? or Fire? Who by? And voluntary coercion? One sword keeps another? A scabbard? Keeps semipiternal? mothers in cupboards? Keeps on and devours? Who will not just be and/or one or another.=20 Will?=20 or wills. Two? Too many to make an affirmative? Thrice. And cut how many times? Four, a foreboding of parados? Understood? Five leads to: Six? Brings to mind gold. Ah, but seven for: Seven? Seven is secrecy. Seven for secrets or joy. Here ends or begins the first lesson: Your bottomless pits of destroy. Nor judge their own cause. Or the joy, the effaced facing east. Or not ever again. Not a gain. Your bottomless pits of destroy. Nor judge their own cause. Or the joy, the effaced facing east. Or not ever again. Not a gain. Sparks fly out of hearts in no single=20 direction but ashes must stay there within. Protected, the ashes remain there within. Light, light=20 enough to illuminate simplify. Light, light=20 enough to illuminate simplify. Dancing, or movement of relics. Singing? Mere consecration of tenuis tombs. Glitter on, termagant: Imprisoned, the crane f l i e s. Flies with the other familiar, the other of prey. Pray? For attempts to=20 continue or dancing. Pray. For the blessing. For maps the marked charts; Calibrate. The compass encompasses: Rope and/ or tension A common selection Rope and/ or tension A common selection of knots. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 20:38:42 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Lasko Subject: Re: group thot? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I'm up with this one, Hilton Obenzinger, though "pride" sounds almost too catchy. While I, too, don't want to congradulate myself for clear opinionation, I do want to think myself into that state in ways that remain alive to the issues at hand, in which I read "pride" as the star in the chest of something mammalian, rather than the masque of either fascist-like Replublicanism or whatever "liberal humanism" resounds at the other end of the gauge. I'd say that as long as pride takes one "over the top", everything's okay. It's when "pride" becomes the ID on any sort of license that something like Virilio's (and /or Chas. Olson's "speed" begins to overtake and primp up your more common ingenue. Truth in that sense may actually be as J.H. Prynne suggests, High Pink on Chrome. Cat >From: Hilton Obenzinger >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: group thot? >Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 09:28:14 -0700 > >At 10:56 PM 10/23/2002 -0400, you wrote: > > >> hilton..i don't really care all that much for WAR..but why are you so >>proud >>of this u group-think and patting youselves on the back to boot...a kind >>of >>ugly glad handing that i thot only Bush and his folk were capable >>of..harry.. > >Take a look at today's NY Times (and probably other papers) about how >Rumsfeld/Wolfowitz have set up their own intelligence unit because they are >dissatisfied with the work of the CIA and others in linking Iraq to al >Qaeda: they are not getting the results they want to monger their >war. Wolfowitz said that there is "a phenomenon in intelligence work, that >people who are pursuing a certain hypothesis will see certain facts that >others won't, and not see other fact that others will. The lens through >which you're looking for facts affects what you look for." As Mark Twain >said, "There are lies, damned lies, and there are statistics." I am >waiting for Bennet and Himmelfarb and others to criticize Wolfowitz for >being an academic nihilist. Bertolt Brecht pointed out that in times of >fascism simply telling the truth in your own field, whether as a shoemaker >or as a biologist (or as a poet), is an act of resistance. > >In the present anti-fascist front even parts of the CIA and Joint Chiefs of >Staff know the difference between fabrication and reality. And even the >vast bulk of the intellectual community -- not to mention the American >public. > >You bet I'm proud. > >Hilton > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Hilton Obenzinger, PhD. >Associate Director of Undergraduate Research Programs for Honors Writing >Lecturer, Department of English >Stanford University >650.723.0330 >650.724.5400 Fax >obenzinger@stanford.edu _________________________________________________________________ Internet access plans that fit your lifestyle -- join MSN. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 13:54:17 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAXINE CHERNOFF Subject: Looking for an email address In-Reply-To: <14e201c27bba$ecd1c860$30343544@rthfrd01.tn.comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Can someone backchannel me Ethan Paquin's address, or can E.P. himself backchannel me? Thanks. Maxine ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 16:25:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: group thot? In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v543) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Truth in that sense may > actually be as J.H. Prynne suggests, High Pink on Chrome. > Cat > after weeks of glaring at a monitor to get a new web project unveiled at work.... this made my day. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 18:13:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: portrait of the artist MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII portrait of the artist subsequent when you were young could take the wilderness for granted. young, atomic energy was a promise and premise of limitless power, who knows what wonders would be solved world-wide. world mechanized electrical, your environment composed fuses, motors, vacuum tubes, rheostats, variometers. public transportation dominate future. industrial based on substance quantity, coal steel. there two sexes polish radio. fox-trots polkas. sky gray papers listed which mines working day, closed. deaths miners reported regularly. bounded by slate-green mountains, slag-piles, thin winding roads to distant cities, scranton new york. heavy snows tricycles, comfort an extended family scattered across small town kingston. jews chanukah parties. old men playing checkers around square in wilkes-barre. still are. bear, fields middle kingston, dolmen backyard great aunt uncle's. milk bottles recycled father came home from war. had first sorobon japanese children's books remember this day. no crime walter winchell figured valley mafia headquarters it was. pittston another world. fears floods later earlier. saw comet, studied runes, read about forests. everything seemed growth. we partners with natural order. magic saturday afternoon movies, or three cartoons, cowboys. colors truths. school whispers darkness warmth inconceivable partings attempted suicides ravages depressions. never recovered depression nineteen-twenty-nine would. i'd listen short-wave voices hungarian revolution. go walking thick woods waterfalls streams. america care everyone poor become happy well-fed wealth redistributed full grace. slaughtered neutron bombs doomsday machines machinery took fearful life its own. languages walked grace memory susquehanna. assembled skeleton found carboniferous flora within layers slate imagined earlier fierce rains crack thunderstorms. at stake. began counting footsteps everywhere continued them. twice naked female cousins hidden corners expanding sight. railroad tracks watch steam-engines. mother perfect cold divided that way, women, coldness men, darker things. saved bird broken wing set, released, tropical fish graced tank dining-room, angelfish, angelfish. walk read, tried learn trigonometry, disciplined enough. dream flying among planets helping people we'd state somewhere all live happily. always afraid. have injections allergies weekly basis, get hives lips eyes swollen hardly breathe sometimes see. wore glasses them constantly aware doubled site. love woman worked went crazy disappeared she mind grandfather mother's side kindest nicest person into his attic play mysteries there, they remained pet snake season baby alligator died so bewildered forgive parents saddest day life, number alligators crocodiles infinite nature plentiful, cornucopia, parts same world, war around. sailing, boat sway lake, wooden slow beautiful, sank dock, drowning every living thing. brother sister lived house. box names friends magically keep stay forever. became only friend, secret messages, disappeared, night float stars save girl most crush knew thinnest crust, fall through, wasn't even matter time, happening thought myself worthless coward. hurricane happiest moment ever, grappled our nature, breathed pure violent gales. cash register bank black machine showed films tiny screen hand-cranked miracles motion unlike any other television distant-sight, often test patterns favorite screen. cried whenever things destroyed movies television, falling apart, going through crust. medical trials volumes nuremberg trials, wrote almost kicked out school, those horrors me animals their way. i fill space worlds my own creation. these kindness slowly move coward, hiding everyone. dominated absolutely temper, hide understood. solace refuge me, memories. made telescopes. watched forever participate. watching outside kill alone. Thu Oct 24 16:45:12 EDT 2002 early source when you were young you could take the wilderness for granted. when you were young, atomic energy was a promise and a premise of limitless power, and who knows what wonders would be solved world-wide. when you were young, the world was mechanized and electrical, and your environment was composed of fuses, motors, vacuum tubes, rheostats, variometers. when you were young, public transportation would dominate the future. and when you were young, the industrial world was based on substance and quantity, coal and steel. when you were young, there were two sexes and polish on the radio. when you were young there were fox-trots and polkas. when you were young, the sky was gray and the papers listed which mines were working for the day, which were closed. when you were young, the deaths of miners were reported regularly. when you were young, the world was bounded by slate-green mountains, slag-piles, thin winding roads to distant cities, scranton and new york. when you were young, there were heavy snows and tricycles, and the comfort of an extended family scattered across the small town of kingston. when you were young, there were jews and chanukah parties. when you were young, there were the old men playing checkers around the square in wilkes-barre. there still are. when you were young, there were bear, and fields in the middle of kingston, and a dolmen in the backyard of your great aunt and uncle's. when you were young, milk bottles were recycled and your father came home from a war. when you were young, you had your first sorobon and japanese children's books you remember to this day. when you were young, there was no crime and walter winchell figured the valley for the mafia headquarters it was. when you were young, pittston was another world. when you were young, there were fears of floods which came later and earlier. when you were young, you saw a comet, studied runes, and read about forests. when you were young, everything seemed old growth. when you were young, we seemed in partners with the natural order. when you were young, the magic of saturday afternoon movies, two or three cartoons, the cowboys. when you were young there were colors and truths. when you were young, your school was your world. when you were young, there were whispers in the darkness and the warmth of inconceivable partings and attempted suicides and the ravages of depressions. when you were young the valley had never recovered from the depression of nineteen-twenty-nine and never would. when you were young i'd listen to the short-wave world and the voices of the hungarian revolution. when you were young, i'd go walking with your father in thick woods with waterfalls and streams. when you were young, america would take care of everyone and the poor would become happy and well-fed and wealth would be redistributed and the world would be full of grace. when you were young the world would be slaughtered by neutron bombs or doomsday machines and machinery took on a fearful life of its own. when you were young there were languages and we walked the woods with the grace of the memory of the susquehanna. when you were young you assembled a skeleton and when you were young you found carboniferous flora within the layers of coal and slate and imagined walking the earlier and earlier and earlier forests. when you were young there were fierce rains and the crack of thunderstorms. when you were young your life was at stake. when you were young you began counting your footsteps everywhere and continued counting and counting them. when you were young you were twice naked with your female cousins in hidden corners of expanding sight. when you were young you would go with your father to the railroad tracks and watch and listen to the steam-engines. when you were young your mother was perfect and your father was cold and everything divided that way, the warmth of the women, coldness of the men, and whispers of darker things. when you were young we saved a bird with a broken wing which was set, and the bird released, and when you were young tropical fish graced a tank in the dining-room, and you remember the angelfish, the angelfish. when you were young, you would walk and walk and read and read, and tried to learn trigonometry, and were never disciplined enough. when you were young you would dream of flying among planets and helping people and helping poor people everywhere and we'd found a state somewhere in the middle of america and we would all live there happily. when you were young, you were always afraid. when you were young, you would have injections for allergies on a weekly basis, and you would get hives and your lips and eyes would become swollen and you could hardly breathe and sometimes hardly see. when you were young, you wore glasses and wore them constantly and were always aware of the doubled world of site. when you were young you were in love with a woman who worked for your family and went crazy and disappeared and when you were young she was always in your mind and when you were young your grandfather on your mother's side was the kindest nicest person in the world. when you were young, you would go into his attic and play with the mysteries there, and there were always mysteries everywhere and they remained mysteries and always would. when you were young you had a pet snake for a season and a baby alligator which died and was so bewildered and you could never forgive your parents and it was the saddest day of your life, and when you were young the number of alligators and crocodiles was infinite and nature was plentiful, a cornucopia, and we were all parts of the same world, and there was war in the world, and the war was all around. when you were young, we went sailing, and the boat would sway on the lake, and the boat was wooden and slow and beautiful, and when you were young, the boat sank at the dock, and it was the drowning of every living thing. when you were young, your brother and sister and you lived in the same house. when you were young, you had a small box with the names of your friends and you would magically keep the names there and your friends would stay forever. when you were young, you became your only friend, and would read your secret messages, and everyone disappeared, and at night you would float among the stars and planets and you would save the girl you had the most crush on in the world. when you were young, you knew the world was the thinnest crust, and everything would fall in and through, and it wasn't even a matter of time, it was happening every day. when you were young, you thought myself a worthless coward. when you were young, you went walking in a hurricane and this was your happiest moment ever, and nature grappled with our world, and it was the same world, and the same nature, and we breathed the pure violent gales. when you were young, you had a cash register bank in black and a black machine that showed films on a tiny screen and was hand-cranked and the films were miracles of motion unlike any other in the world. when you were young, television was distant-sight, and the screen was often test patterns and that was your favorite screen. when you were young, you cried whenever you saw things destroyed in the movies or on television, and you thought the world was falling apart, and we were going through the crust. when you were young you read the medical trials volumes of the nuremberg war trials, and you wrote about them and were almost kicked out of school, and those horrors remained with me forever. when you were young, all animals were perfect in their way. when i was young, i wrote to fill the space of the world with worlds of my own creation. when i was young, these worlds were a comfort and a kindness and i could slowly move within them. when i was young, i was a coward, hiding from everyone. when i was young, my father dominated absolutely with his temper, and i would hide and never understood. when i was young, my mother was a solace and a refuge and a world. when i was young, my father would go walking in the woods with me, and these were my happiest memories. when i was young, i made telescopes. when i was young, i watched the world forever and knew i would never participate. when i was young, i was watching from outside the world. when i was young, i knew i could never kill a living thing. when i was young, i was alone. when i was young, i could take the wilderness for granted. Thu Oct 24 16:45:12 EDT 2002 === ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 18:32:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Geoffrey Gatza Subject: New home for BlazeVOX2k2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Announcing the new home for BlazeVOX2k2=20 http://blazevox.da.ru http://blazevox.da.ru http://blazevox.da.ru when you don't have time to spend in the kitchen, let the Colonel do the = cooking for you. Stop by your nearest BlazeVOX2k2 website and take home = some comfort-- Chunky Chicken Poetry Pie, mashed poems, biscuits and, of = course, the famous bucket of Fried Poetry. The home for New Media and Poetry Avant Garde=20 ***** Please disregard the old Vorplesword site as it has been = expropriated by pornographers *****=20 http://blazevox.da.ru http://blazevox.da.ru http://blazevox.da.ru http://blazevox.da.ru http://blazevox.da.ru http://blazevox.da.ru http://blazevox.da.ru http://blazevox.da.ru http://blazevox.da.ru Feature=20 Lawrence Upton My Recent Multivoice Texts Solipsis auto-text=20 (whatever a response is)=20 Poetry RICHARD KOSTELANETZ William James Austin Amy King Christopher Mulrooney Ian Randall Wilson Prasenjit Maiti=20 New Media Johan Dervish Mikey Kellerher Shaquanica Xone Zoltan Giegerish Jonas Norwall-Snout Ezra Pound=20 take home some comfort ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 17:59:05 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: The Poetry Project Subject: Poetry Project Announcements Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable NEXT WEEK AT THE POETRY PROJECT *** MONDAY OCTOBER 28 [8:00pm] THE "LOVE" GONE WRONG: HALLOWEEN READING WEDNESDAY OCTOBER 30 [8:00pm] JESSICA HAGEDORN AND QUINCY TROUPE http://www.poetryproject.com/calendar.html *** MONDAY OCTOBER 28 [8:00pm] THE "LOVE" GONE WRONG: HALLOWEEN READING Ghosts! Ghouls! Haunted Houses? That's nothing! Join us this Monday before All Hallows Eve for a reading of breakups, bad sex and mortifying crushes. Many costumes, scary snacks, and door prizes for audience members in costume. Readers include Edmund Berrigan, Brenda Bordofsky, Johannes G=F6ransson, Cath= y Park Hong, Erika Kaufman, Bill Kushner, Sue Landers, Rachel Levitsky, Akili= a Oliver, Maureen Owen, Janet Richmond, Spencer Short and maybe a secret reader or two. WEDNESDAY OCTOBER 30 [8:00pm] JESSICA HAGEDORN AND QUINCY TROUPE Jessica Hagedorn is a poet, novelist, playwright, screenwriter and performance artist whose work has been anthologized widely. Her extensive publications include Dogeaters (National Book Award nominee for fiction), Danger and Beauty, a collection of poetry and selected writings, and The Gangster of Love, which was the Irish Times International Fiction Prize nominee. She is the editor of Charlie Chan Is Dead: An Anthology of Contemporary Asian-American Fiction. Hagedorn=B9s stage adaptation of Dogeaters was presented at the La Jolla Playhouse in 1998 and at the Joseph Papp Public Theatre in New York City in 2001. Her work in other media includes: creating and writing four episodes of The Pink Palace, an animate= d series for the Oxygen TV Network and developing the screenplay for Shu Lea Cheang=B9s independent feature film, Fresh Kill. She is presently at work on various film and theatre projects as well as a new novel. Quincy Troupe is the author of thirteen books, including six volumes of poetry, the latest of which is Transcircularities: New and Selected Poems (Coffee House Press, 2002). He is also the co-author (with Miles Davis) of Miles: The Autobiography and the editor of James Baldwin: The Legacy. His memoir, Miles and Me: A Memoir of Miles Davis was published in March, 2000 by the University of California Press. In Fall, 2000, Jump At The Sun, a division of Hyperion-Disney, published his famous "Poem For Magic" as a children's book, titled take it to the hoop, Magic Johnson. Jump At The Sun will also publish, in 2003, his children's book on Stevie Wonder titled Little Stevie. In fall/winter, 2002, Coffee House Press will publish Troupe's Transcircularities: New and Selected Poems. *** Unless otherwise noted, admission to all events is $10, $7 for students and seniors, and $5 for Poetry Project members. Schedule is subject to change. The Poetry Project is located in St. Mark's Church in-the-Bowery at 131 E. 10th Street, on the corner of 2nd Avenue in Manhattan. Trains F, 6, N, R. The Poetry Project is wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. Please call (212) 674-0910 for more information, or e-mail us at poproj@poetryproject.com. *** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 16:28:40 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: group thot? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >I'm up with this one, Hilton Obenzinger, though "pride" sounds almost too >catchy. While I, too, don't want to congradulate myself for clear >opinionation, I do want to think myself into that state in ways that remain >alive to the issues at hand, in which I read "pride" as the star in the >chest of something mammalian, rather than the masque of either fascist-like >Replublicanism or whatever "liberal humanism" resounds at the other end of >the gauge. I'd say that as long as pride takes one "over the top", >everything's okay. It's when "pride" becomes the ID on any sort of license >that something like Virilio's (and /or Chas. Olson's "speed" begins to >overtake and primp up your more common ingenue. Truth in that sense may >actually be as J.H. Prynne suggests, High Pink on Chrome. >Cat Pride is the deadly sin usually mentioned first. -- George Bowering Per ardua ad astra. Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 19:19:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rebecca Wolff Subject: Fence Books Fall 2002 Comments: To: rebeccafence@earthlink.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Fence Books offers up the winner of the 2002 Alberta Prize: The Real Moon of Poetry and Other Poems, by Tina Brown Celona. (By the way, you can always find a good deal on our website (http://www.fencebooks.com): Buy any two Fence Books and get 30% off the cover price. On the site you'll also find contest guidelines and required entry forms for the 2003 Alberta Prize, which offers five thousand dollars and publication for a manuscript of poems by a woman writing in English.) Meanwhile, here are some blurbs: Skewed, ajitter, sui generis--the hyper, cyberized world as if viewed through an old Bell and Howell home movie camera on the fritz, its motor at quarter speed and burning out, the lens blurred and cracked. And what an odd, disturbing, startling world Tina Celona's poems provide. --August Kleinzahler Tina Celona's poems unite the contraries of perception (the "real moon") and imagination ("the moon in my poem"), to realize "the real moon of poetry." This allows her free rein in both realms ("my dream and my body") since, after all, they are one. With her keen eye and fine sense of rhythm, she can include a chaotic world, a vague family, a difficult farm, a singular loneliness--all in what sometimes seems a side glance. This is a fine collection and, one fervently hopes, only a beginning.--Keith Waldrop *The Real Moon of Poetry* is one of the most engagingly distinctive first books of poetry I have seen in some time. Read it and weep, read it and laugh, read it and be amazed. The enormity of saying anything here becomes palpable, a beauty occasioned by courageous precision that cannot be compromised or distracted--nor rest. This is the real deal and that rare thing: an original voice.--Marvin Bell Tina Celona's beautiful and odd poems are involved in trying to find ways to feel when the traditional sources of feeling--nature, family, love, poems and their unadulterated language--are as remote and ossified as relics in a museum. It's as though Celona's speaker has to bring herself to extremes of disaffection in order to regain her own reality. I find this quest, with all its bitterness, self-mockery, and--to put it lightly--iconoclasm, to be, well, heartbreaking. Celona's poems do hard work on a reader's behalf. They want something, need something, from poetry, and they are not afraid to ask the form to deliver.--Mark Levine And here is what the book looks like, from the front: And here is just one of many poems you'll find in the book: A SONG FOR THE MOON the moon is more beautiful later when i have gone to bed with my poem about the moon with my beautiful poem about the beautiful moon in my poem the real moon looks real too real for my poem the moon in my poem is better for poetry the real moon of poetry is better for me ********** Rebecca Wolff Fence et al. 14 Fifth Avenue, #1A New York, NY 10011 http://www.fencemag.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 16:39:39 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hilton Obenzinger Subject: Re: group thot? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I'm a sinner and I'm proud Say it loud. I don't think I need to explain irony to folks, do I? The fact is: far more people, in all walks of life, are opposed to Bush's adventures than we are led to imagine. How refreshing is that? Hilton At 04:28 PM 10/24/2002 -0700, you wrote: >>I'm up with this one, Hilton Obenzinger, though "pride" sounds almost too >>catchy. While I, too, don't want to congradulate myself for clear >>opinionation, I do want to think myself into that state in ways that remain >>alive to the issues at hand, in which I read "pride" as the star in the >>chest of something mammalian, rather than the masque of either fascist-like >>Replublicanism or whatever "liberal humanism" resounds at the other end of >>the gauge. I'd say that as long as pride takes one "over the top", >>everything's okay. It's when "pride" becomes the ID on any sort of license >>that something like Virilio's (and /or Chas. Olson's "speed" begins to >>overtake and primp up your more common ingenue. Truth in that sense may >>actually be as J.H. Prynne suggests, High Pink on Chrome. >>Cat > >Pride is the deadly sin usually mentioned first. >-- >George Bowering >Per ardua ad astra. >Fax 604-266-9000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hilton Obenzinger, PhD. Associate Director of Undergraduate Research Programs for Honors Writing Lecturer, Department of English Stanford University 650.723.0330 650.724.5400 Fax obenzinger@stanford.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 20:04:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Schlesinger Subject: C.S. Peirce Conference Homepage at the EPC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable C.S. Peirce & the Art of Icons Conference=20 Friday, October 26, 9 am - 5 pm & Saturday, Oct. 27, 9 - 12 am Poetry and Rare Books Collection, 420 Capen Hall State University of New York at Buffalo Although many scholars abroad and in this country consider C. S. Peirce = to be one of the few authentic geniuses America has produced, much of = his vast corpus remains unknown outside a small circle of specialists. = Among the reasons for this deplorable situation is the fact that often = his work is radically unconventional in both content and style. Another = reason is that Peirce was a polymath who moved back and forth between = philosophy, literature, mathematics, semiotics, physical science, = history and much else.=20 Our focus in this conference will be on some manuscripts of Peirce that = pose especially formidable problems. How are we to understand these = writings? It has been suggested that we should be open to the = possibility that sometimes Peirce was producing a mix of poetry, visual = art, philosophy, mathematics and physical science. To discuss this = possibility we have brought together literary scholars and philosophers = of widely varying areas of expertise. Echoing the experimentalism of our = subject, the structure of the conference program will be somewhat free = form. No formal papers will be presented, and the schedule will be = flexible.=20 Susan Howe and Peter Hare=20 =20 The Poetry and Pragmatism Homepage for the C.S. Peirce & the Art of = Icons Conference is now available on the EPC @ = . We will be updating = the page after the conference with audio and visual files, so stay = tuned! =20 Best Wishes, =20 Kyle =20 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 21:26:07 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Floodeditions@AOL.COM Subject: Fanny Howe & Karen Volkman in Chicago MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Fanny Howe & Karen Volkman reading at Harold Washington Library 400 South State Street Chicago Authors Room, 7th Floor Chicago IL USA Saturday, November 2nd, 1:00 PM Fanny Howe recently won the Lenore Marshall Award for her Selected Poems (UC Press, 2000). She has also won the Commonwealth Prize of California for the same volume, two NEA grants and is a Fellow of the Radcliffe Institute. She is a poet and novelist and has taught at UC San Diego for many years. A recent collection of short stories, Economics, is available from Flood Editions. Karen Volkman's books of poetry are Crash's Law, a National Poetry Series selection, and Spar, which received the Iowa Poetry Prize and the 2002 James Laughlin Award from the Academy of American Poets. Her poems have appeared in numerous journals--with recent work appearing or soon to materialize in New American Writing, Denver Quarterly, American Letters & Commentary, and The Paris Review--and in anthologies including The Best American Poetry, The Pushcart Prize Anthology, and the forthcoming Great American Prose Poems. Recipient of awards and fellowships from the NEA, the Poetry Society of America, and the Akademie Schloss Solitude, she is currently the Springer Poet-in-Residence at the University of Chicago. sponsored by Chicago Poetry Project ===== Chicago Poetry Project Box 642185 Chicago, IL 60664 www.chicagopoetryproject.org ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 14:43:44 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: group thot? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hilton. I like Harry but he is obsessed with this: the quote from Twain is apt. Harry is actually coming from a racist perspective ...he simply cant see it... cant see that in fact that zionism is racist: its implications are that the Jews are superior to the Arabs ...now that doesnt mean that all the Arabs are "good guys"...Harry is not seing that his so-called friends are easily and at right/wrong time his enemies...I saw a programme by the BBC on terrorism..but I didnt believe it : I dont believe the BBC, CNN: I dont trust the British or the US even the so-called nuetral presses I believe have CIA funded "stories" which are cunning ly fabricated as they were in the Vietnam war days to make people belive that "communism " was to spread from Vietnam all over the Pacific: all of this to win allies in the US Military-Industrial oush to bomb Vietnam abnd 9they hoped ) to destroy China...anything outside the US where people look as though tey might get some semblacnce of independence: some real democracy: tha language poets on this list abcked the War against Afghanistan from fear: they have bought into the crap on TV and the media....I have more belief in Pilger and others and even in what the Arabs say or think: the whole thing (supposedly a docu) could have been fabricated and in fact if one substuitutes CIA for "Terrorists" there is a sudden change in perspective and possiblities. You are right to be proud, Richard Taylor. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hilton Obenzinger" To: Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 5:28 AM Subject: Re: group thot? > At 10:56 PM 10/23/2002 -0400, you wrote: > > > > hilton..i don't really care all that much for WAR..but why are you so proud > >of this u group-think and patting youselves on the back to boot...a kind of > >ugly glad handing that i thot only Bush and his folk were capable of..harry.. > > Take a look at today's NY Times (and probably other papers) about how > Rumsfeld/Wolfowitz have set up their own intelligence unit because they are > dissatisfied with the work of the CIA and others in linking Iraq to al > Qaeda: they are not getting the results they want to monger their > war. Wolfowitz said that there is "a phenomenon in intelligence work, that > people who are pursuing a certain hypothesis will see certain facts that > others won't, and not see other fact that others will. The lens through > which you're looking for facts affects what you look for." As Mark Twain > said, "There are lies, damned lies, and there are statistics." I am > waiting for Bennet and Himmelfarb and others to criticize Wolfowitz for > being an academic nihilist. Bertolt Brecht pointed out that in times of > fascism simply telling the truth in your own field, whether as a shoemaker > or as a biologist (or as a poet), is an act of resistance. > > In the present anti-fascist front even parts of the CIA and Joint Chiefs of > Staff know the difference between fabrication and reality. And even the > vast bulk of the intellectual community -- not to mention the American public. > > You bet I'm proud. > > Hilton > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > Hilton Obenzinger, PhD. > Associate Director of Undergraduate Research Programs for Honors Writing > Lecturer, Department of English > Stanford University > 650.723.0330 > 650.724.5400 Fax > obenzinger@stanford.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 21:23:40 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: REMINDER AND VENUE CHANGE: POG reading this Saturday Oct 26, 7 pm: poets Martin Corless-Smith & Tenney Nathanson Comments: To: Tenney Nathanson MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit REMINDER! PLEASE NOTE VENUE CHANGE! POG presents poets Martin Corless-Smith and Tenney Nathanson Saturday, October 26, 7pm BIBLIO 222 E Congress 624-8222 Admission: $5; Students $3 Martin Corless-Smith is the author of Of Piscator (U of Georgia) and Complete Travels (West House Books), as well as the chapbooks Lives of the Poets: A Preliminary Count (Ispress), A Selection of the Work of Thomas Swan (with Alan Halsey) (West House Books), The Garden: A Theophany of ECCOHOME, a Dialectical Lyric (Spectacular Books), and On the Nature of Things (811 Press). He teaches creative writing at Boise State University. Online materials by or about Corless-Smith include: an interview in README at http://home.jps.net/~nada/issuefour.htm a review of COMPLETE TRAVELS in Jacket Magazine, at http://jacketmagazine.com/12/corl-by-kenn.html a poem in manuscript at http://www.wordforword.info/vol1/volume1/Corless-Smith.htm Tenney Nathanson is the author of the chapbooks The Book of Death (Membrane Press) and One Block Over (Chax Press) and of the forthcoming collection Erased Art (Chax Press). His published criticism includes Whitman’s Presence (NYU Press). Nathanson teaches American poetry at the University of Arizona and is a founding member of POG. He’ll be reading from a nearly completed book-length poem in progress, Home on the Range. For samples of Nathanson’s work online you can go to: · http://www.gopog.org/poemmonth.html · http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/rift/rift03/nath0301.html · http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/rift/rift05/nath0501.html POG events are sponsored in part by grants from the Tucson/Pima Arts Council, the Arizona Commission on the Arts, and the National Endowment for the Arts. POG also benefits from the continuing support of The University of Arizona Poetry Center, the Arizona Quarterly, Chax Press, and The University of Arizona Department of English. We also thank the following POG donors: Patrons Roberta Howard and Austin Publicover; Sponsors Barbara Allen, Chax Press, and Stefanie Marlis. for further information contact POG: (520)-296-6416 mailto:pog@gopog.org or visit us on the web at www.gopog.org ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 00:27:54 -0400 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: what thot? i'm waiting for the end of the world series game...and just missed the guy on the Carnaval Cruise Line ship who wants to buy the INSCRIBED "BELOVED' for i hope 4 and a half grand..and i don;t need a nite job...and i sent Hilton a private e 'bout his posting..since no-one needs too till the same barren ground..over and over...and it's now past midnite so i can start again on my quota of two Poetics postings a day..and I just heard Jonathan Demme who i used to know in the 'good old days' who wouldn't do the sequel to Silence/Lambs & $$$$$$$...cause he didn't like what happed to Claaaarice...& who told me he'd a sold used books hadn't he been a director and i should sd i woulda been a poet hadn;t i been one.. lookeee here....i was born in 1946 in Gleiwitz, Ger....a gritty industrial town on the shifting Polski/Duetsch border...& i learned only this week in Walter Lacquer's 'THE FIRST NEWS OF THE HOLOCAUST'...that Gleiwitz was 15 miles from Auschwitz...welcome aboard kid...and these are your neighbors...just smile we see the world as we see it...& since major/major is both a first and last name...so is Mr Mohammed Mohammed...i'm punching out...DRn... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 22:05:38 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dcmb Subject: Re: Mr. B MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I didnt ~prefer~your shirts, Geo. They were all that were left for me to wear,in that indifferent climate,and where fashion counts for nowt, after you had micturated on my own. I sccepted your spology the next morning. Why do you go on and on about this unseemly incident? It couldnnt be that you are protecting someone--name of Rachel, perhaps? Bromms -----Original Message----- From: George Bowering To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Thursday, October 24, 2002 12:30 AM Subject: Re: Mr. B >Though on looking at the shirts you generally wear, David, I can see >why you would prefer mine. > > > >>What shirts? Sixty-nine and likking it, Broms >>-----Original Message----- >>From: George Bowering >>To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>Date: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 12:30 PM >>Subject: Re: Mr. B >> >> >>>Yeah, I am also of a mind to say happy birthday, Brom. As a birthday >>>present, you can keep the shirts you took last time you were staying >> >here. >> >-- >> >George Bowering >> >Per ardua ad astra. >> >Fax 604-266-9000 >> > > > >-- >George Bowering >Per ardua ad astra. >Fax 604-266-9000 > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 01:39:53 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: [narconews] Gorman: Marines Ordered into Colombia in Secret Op MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit October 25, 2002 Please Distribute Widely A Narco News Global Alert Dear Colleagues, Veteran Amazon correspondent Peter Gorman - the authentic journalist with the sources that have allowed him to consistently tell us what Washington was doing in the Andes before it became publicly known through other media - reports a story from Iquitos, Perú: "Two battalions of US Marine Jungle Expeditionary Forces have recently received deployment orders for insertion into Colombia this coming February, 2003. "According to reliable sources, the battalions, which with support will total roughly 1,100 men, will rotate in and out of southern Colombia, with orders to eliminate all high officers of the FARC (Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia), scattering those who escape to the remote corners of the Amazon... "While this reporter did not see a battle plan, according to our sources the offensive will be led by the Colombian military, which will push the FARC south toward the waiting Marines. A similar but much smaller operation involving former US-SEALS was called off at the last minute two years ago. The Bush Administration is supposedly prepared to take the heat as many innocent Indigenous peoples and Colombian campesinos—a number that could reach the thousands—as might be killed in the offensive. "The presence of US troops in battle in Colombia will be in direct contravention of the Congressional parameters of both Clinton’s Plan Colombia and Bush’s expanded Andean Initiative..." To read the full report: http://www.narconews.com/ from somewhere in a country called América, Al Giordano Publisher The Narco News Bulletin http://www.narconews.com/ narconews@hotmail.com Subscribe for free alerts of new reports: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/narconews Suscríbete gratis para alertas de reportajes nuevos en español: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/narconewsandes ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 19:27:38 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: group thot? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit George etal. And it cometh also before a fall, no? But there is that good pride one has which I alow myself despite so called or real "stupidities"...hence I try to keep civil with such as Harry Nudel and others ...after all it could be true: Bush (and company) could be right...but I like to think that the Bush's of this world (not the burning bushes) create the "terroism" but then it might in fact just go back to the question of moral choice and the question of evil: that's the apocalyptic...or it can lead to that..scenario....after all what are we...maybe there is something in the concept of the fall ( Imean that it is as a metaphoric/allegoric "reality") ...and sometimes great poets or "great" poets "see" these things. I reserve the right to make error ... to be "angry" on occasion...or "angry with history".... I recall seeing Nick Piombino's "I have had no bliss since 911" and I can understand that: but the trouble is we have to ask hard questions ...who really did this, are we to believe the media: as academics do we act or retreat into aporia and other long terminology...what do we do? I'm talking as if I was an academic: I'd actually like to be one...I'm probably as quietist as some of the people I crit. - after all its all so easy when one is not uinder fire: but its such as Hilton and others who are valuable because a degree of objectivity counters my (and others') "bursts" of lashing at people, and we can maybe learn from him how to read betwenen lines...and then the Harrys etc warn us to be alert because of Auschwitz and that is also valid: I can see that. I myself wanted to "tune out" but I keep responding: I'd greatly prefer to switch off and "retreat into literature" etc. But maybe this is our purpose on earth, apart from love and so on, to suffer these moral questions: agonising dilemmas. Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Bowering" To: Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 12:28 PM Subject: Re: group thot? > >I'm up with this one, Hilton Obenzinger, though "pride" sounds almost too > >catchy. While I, too, don't want to congradulate myself for clear > >opinionation, I do want to think myself into that state in ways that remain > >alive to the issues at hand, in which I read "pride" as the star in the > >chest of something mammalian, rather than the masque of either fascist-like > >Replublicanism or whatever "liberal humanism" resounds at the other end of > >the gauge. I'd say that as long as pride takes one "over the top", > >everything's okay. It's when "pride" becomes the ID on any sort of license > >that something like Virilio's (and /or Chas. Olson's "speed" begins to > >overtake and primp up your more common ingenue. Truth in that sense may > >actually be as J.H. Prynne suggests, High Pink on Chrome. > >Cat > > Pride is the deadly sin usually mentioned first. > -- > George Bowering > Per ardua ad astra. > Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 23:37:11 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Damian Judge Rollison Subject: Re: Request for EPC Link Suggestions In-Reply-To: <000e01c27ba5$e468f820$30343544@rthfrd01.tn.comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE For which see Marjorie Perloff, "After Language Poetry:=20 Innovation and Its Theoretical Discontents," _The World in=20 Time and Space_: "At times in recent years, one wonders how long the drive=20 to innovate can continue, especially when, as in the case=20 of [Mary Margaret] Sloan's _Moving Borders_[: Three Decades=20 of Innovative Writing by Women], fifty contemporary=20 American women poets are placed under the 'innovative'=20 umbrella. Given these numbers, one wonders, who isn't=20 innovative? And how much longer can poets keep innovating=20 without finding themselves inadvertently Making It Old?"=20 She notes, however, that "it was not always thus. The OED=20 reminds us that innovation was once synonymous with=20 sedition and even treason." Best example: Edmund Burke,=20 1796 -- French Revolution is "a revolt of innovation; and=20 thereby, the very elements of society have been confounded=20 and dissipated." I don't know that both contemporary and antiquated senses=20 aren't more or less enacted when we use the term=20 "innovative" to refer to poetry (if with a nonpejorative=20 spin in the latter case). But the word does have the=20 somewhat unfortunate connotation of onward and upward with=20 the arts forever, manifest destiny, cult of progress, etc.=20 I guess I prefer the slightly oxymoronic "experimental=20 tradition" -- we do seem to need a term -- and I suppose=20 that's because "experimental" connotes the laboratory. (Lab=20 not workshop -- producing findings not commodities.)=20 "Experimental" might play ultimately into a scientistic=20 telos, but then progress is a kind of myth in science as=20 well. We don't write in four-stress accentual meter=20 anymore, and we don't think the earth is the center of the=20 universe, but neither predilection is therefore discounted. Damian On Thu, 24 Oct 2002 16:39:51 -0500 Thomas Bell=20 wrote: > I may be just having a bemusing day but can't stop musing over the meanin= g > of 'innovative poetry'. From a practitioner's perspective it's hard to > imagine poetry that's not innovative? >=20 > tom bell >=20 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Loss Peque=F1o Glazier" > To: > Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 7:06 AM > Subject: Request for EPC Link Suggestions >=20 >=20 > > We are presently updating our list of EPC links to sites for innovative > > poetry (including print magazines, print publishers, poetry e-zines, et= c.) > > and innovative new media works. We welcome suggestions from members of = the > > list and will do our best to include all relevant suggestions, dependin= g > on > > volume. Please submit suggestions at: > > http://epc.buffalo.edu/forms/link.html > > Thanks! <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< damian judge rollison department of english university of virginia djr4r@virginia.edu=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 00:30:40 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew Rathmann Subject: Re: int'l poetry cultures (was Report from Czech Republic Poetry Festival) In-Reply-To: <003301c279fe$551ec850$22e096d1@Jane> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I think this topic connects interestingly to the question of globalism. I have not thought deeply about this, but it does seem that global entertainments must ignore or make minimal use language in order to reach global audiences. You don't really need to understand English to watch "Titanic." The most successful films may be in English, but they use language so simply that they could be said to be fundamentally indifferent to it.* Does that mean that literature, drama, and the other language arts must be regional because languages are regional? Does it place poetry outside the globalism debate? Might that be a good thing? Andy *Just an aside, but I think the inanity of Hollywood dialogue can make us forget that the most intense pleasure of cinema doesn't have to be visual spectacle: it can also be the way great actors perform the richness of contemporary speech. One example might be Jeff Bridges (a truly great actor, I think) in "The Big Lebowski." I think that that film in particular has imagined and paid homage to the speech of our time. ------ Paula Speck wrote: The rest of the world >consumes our mass entertainment willingly and avidly, when they want >escapism. But when they want to see characters and settings that bear some >resemblance to their own lives, they turn to works produced closer to home. >And since a movie, for example, with high production values is quite >expensive (and a relatively small language or culture group like the Dutch >or the Portuguese can't count on selling the work to outsiders), this work >expressing local scenes and problems is not likely to be a movie, but >instead a novel, a short story or even a poem. The end result is that art >forms that require fewer resources and can be produced by individuals or >small groups still have substantial audiences and fulfull a non-elite need >in places like Buenos Aires, Amsterdam, Lima, and Lisbon. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 01:41:54 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: ALVIN SACHS KETHER #0010 Comments: To: 7-11@mail.ljudmila.org, ImitationPoetics@listserv.unc.edu, o-o@konf.lt, webartery@yahoogroups.com, syndicate@anart.no, _arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au, owner-realpoetik@scn.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ALVIN SACHS KETHER #0010 [excerpt] www.web-published-nation.com countenance hippocratic preparing ere long burst rested upper nor lower extremities place virgine weie purpose grant cor scorpionis thritiene norfolk other one great empire reasonable propinquity brother hote cham once six years extensive experienced one best beckles wilson ledger paris dwindled nothing because well study being phebus thei mihten knowe rejected babylonians rietschel same station some princess marie governess left other new ways cannot calculations borelli invited emperor napoleon actually career dramatic composer knew same rule observed young friends time admit cor scorpionis thritiene twenty-five copies made scores both matter explained reasons having offered stalketh pocok doth whole conducted much business similar phenomena carried schal nyht knowledge experience moreover hypospadias epispadias rotundity well-conformity search useless-all remained silent thus every man therfore carried aether noght also mochel drope separated rotation regardless substance used connected work provided very place woman figure shows case subtended thus every man therfore fifteenth ne thilke goode lawe cessed sign freed thou hast released thy son horus whilst asylum side earned social acceptance little dog fips during learned further quite unexpected fruits recently biblical senses unimportant now freshly upper depression inherent compulsiveness time science went red yellow-formed produced tempered steel allowed follow own track access does see feet feet high ordeigned pouer determined protest time fact these use both penises finishing found exceptional favour eyes connected work provided very syllabary secret consonants vowels giving young friends time admit arrons gret spekinge made making piteous demands return all minium appeareth all health furnished scantily little virgine weie output arrons gret spekinge made great allow promised fee being morrow rehearsal moment very nutrition newton all worth such micro unto mi god somwhat seie describes triple bladder seen government actual administration seed povere folk almesse fell adriagne tho gold fond ston withal means all events position oppose amputation who learned utilize prehistoric historic stage showed devotion good wiped system perfected clitoris ordeigned pouer very summer account health think dared invited emperor napoleon actually northern middle colonies regarding thin reinforced reichstadt obligations blown third acts separated first second partially employed extent partial talkative young man showed warm one best beckles wilson ledger ordeigned pouer cours condicion where kirchner dryly candidly remarked some reasonably expected take further proposition same sort improvements cannot confined within saturn use both penises finishing attraction individual find sun larger even quarrelsome such already even quarrelsome such already larger inventors works usually negotiation every one felt lohengrin du --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.404 / Virus Database: 228 - Release Date: 10/15/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 07:50:41 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: int'l poetry cultures (was Report from Czech Republic Poetry Festival) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" good god... ok andrew r, i'm WITH YOU, finally!!---jeff bridges in ~the big lebowski~ gave me some of my most pleasurable cinematic moments in YEARS... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 14:13:28 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: paula speck Subject: Re: int'l poetry cultures (was Report from Czech Republic Poetry Festival) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Andrew et al.-- Yes, I think it is a very good thing. I remember reading in several places that Hollywood directors regularly put in extra sex scenes and car chases because these are popular across cultures and increase international sales (which are a big part of a movie's profit, as I understand). Meanwhile, as Hollywood neglects dialogue, characterization, and plots that deal with everyday unvarnished life, a foreign film that still tries to do these things sometimes makes lots of money with U.S. audiences (e.g. The Full Monty, Amelie). Then, for a while, our media corporations talk about returning to these values, and maybe they even do it, to some extent. So I think it would be a mistake (and a form of unconscious imperialism) to assume that media influence flows outward from the rich U.S.-based entertainment conglomerates, flooding and covering all but a few valiant islands of local quality around the world. It's at least a two-way flow (I've come to the limits of my hydraulic metaphor). Also, I think that it's another form of unconscious and well-intentioned imperialist thinking to assume that people around the world just ingest U.S. mass media passively and can only find expressive freedom by ignoring it. From what I've seen, they actively interpret the stream of mass media that comes their way and reshape it to their needs, sometimes in ways that would surprise us. Examples: my Cuban friends have some funny/cutting observations to make about hearing Ricky Ricardo break into hysterical Spanish on old reruns of *I Love Lucy*; Wynton Marsalis has some great stuff to say in interviews about the constant interchange and cross-influencing of U.S. jazz and Brazilian bossa nova, etc. I think it was Decio Pignatari in Brazil (whose day job was in advertising) who made concrete poetry out of Coca Cola advertisements. All the time, artists around the world are working in their own local traditions and raiding whatever comes their way (including U.S. mass media culture) for forms and materials to serve THEIR purposes, not ours. To me, this is an optimistic picture: whatever bombs we drop or countries we invade, art (and ultimately, the human mind) is naturally, cantankerously individual or locally communal. Paula >From: Andrew Rathmann >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: int'l poetry cultures (was Report from Czech Republic Poetry > Festival) >Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 00:30:40 -0800 > >I think this topic connects interestingly to the question of globalism. I >have not thought deeply about this, but it does seem that global >entertainments must ignore or make minimal use language in order to reach >global audiences. You don't really need to understand English to watch >"Titanic." The most successful films may be in English, but they use >language so simply that they could be said to be fundamentally indifferent >to it.* > >Does that mean that literature, drama, and the other language arts must be >regional because languages are regional? Does it place poetry outside the >globalism debate? Might that be a good thing? > >Andy > >*Just an aside, but I think the inanity of Hollywood dialogue can make us >forget that the most intense pleasure of cinema doesn't have to be visual >spectacle: it can also be the way great actors perform the richness of >contemporary speech. One example might be Jeff Bridges (a truly great >actor, I think) in "The Big Lebowski." I think that that film in >particular has imagined and paid homage to the speech of our time. > >------ >Paula Speck wrote: > >The rest of the world > >consumes our mass entertainment willingly and avidly, when they want > >escapism. But when they want to see characters and settings that bear >some > >resemblance to their own lives, they turn to works produced closer to >home. > >And since a movie, for example, with high production values is quite > >expensive (and a relatively small language or culture group like the >Dutch > >or the Portuguese can't count on selling the work to outsiders), this >work > >expressing local scenes and problems is not likely to be a movie, but > >instead a novel, a short story or even a poem. The end result is that >art > >forms that require fewer resources and can be produced by individuals or > >small groups still have substantial audiences and fulfull a non-elite >need > >in places like Buenos Aires, Amsterdam, Lima, and Lisbon. _________________________________________________________________ Unlimited Internet access for only $21.95/month. Try MSN! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/2monthsfree.asp ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 07:29:17 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: nests blooming like foliage soiling Comments: cc: "arc.hive" <_arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au>, cupcake kaleidoscope , Renee , rhizome , wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii semen dreampt then folded recursion at philosophy in addition to blisters flying up philosophy flying Dr. No . presence nodded out Dr. No over the yes men spanning or rubs raw slickness in between Dr. No . knowledge soiling as flying Brad.Brad nodded out because Brittany manically redeems at semen . nests blooming like foliage soiling but manically redeems philosophy . among recursion therefore soiling in the midst of blisters nodded out knowledge . a return to flooding floors Brad also slickness floors Brittany inside philosophy . eyes spinning eyes spitting naming the needle rain at the hinges on the wings of the hummingbird . knowledge nodded out recursion then nodded out on top of philosophy . the yes men consequently slickness traced as a pinprick pavement . knowledge nodded out if soiling Dr. No in between philosophy . but a return to flooding punctured among blood . therefore recursion , Brad soiling slickness within manically redeems meanwhile nests blooming like foliage nodded out down Brad . slickness narrows and recursion in the midst of recursion . the hinges on the wings of the hummingbird nodded out but narrows Brad . a return to flooding punctured between traced . at nectar to Brittany pucnhed as the needle rain spanning a pinprick pavement. presence floors presence therefore presence nodded out blood on top of blood . a pinprick pavement punctured Brittany down . recursion rooting nests blooming like foliage however rooting after semen . semen but presence naming after a return to flooding . a return to flooding narrows to perked up Brad over recursion then a return to flooding rubs raw without Brad spaced semen . Brad reading the hinges on the wings of the hummingbird before presence because naming the yes men while nests blooming like foliage . a pinprick pavement spanning inside reading blood.the yes men punctured also presence spanning within recursion . slickness rooting and floors semen after semen . to recursion rubs raw within eyes spinning eyes spitting . in case of suckles semen , blisters flying eyes spinning eyes spitting outside manically redeems on the other hand the yes men suckles on top of nectar . a return to flooding traced of course was abruptly pursued Brittany after nests blooming like foliage . Dr. No narrows beside the needle rain . ===== http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html meditation, net art, poeisis: blog http://lewislacook.blogspot.com/ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 10:31:16 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Re: group thot? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/25/02 2:27:28 AM, richard.tylr@XTRA.CO.NZ writes: << after all it could be true: Bush (and company) could be right...but I like to think that the Bush's of this world (not the burning bushes) create the "terroism" >> And there you have it, folks. Bush might be right or wrong. The pontificating aside, that's all we know. The most interesting question for me is why so many "like to think" what they think. Thanks Richard. Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com KojaPress.com Amazon.com BarnesandNoble.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 07:42:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: our children without men Comments: cc: "arc.hive" <_arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au>, cupcake kaleidoscope , Renee , rhizome , wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii fun flaming and departed everything that is the case in between some of the roadkill however financial backing siphons as William Carlos Williams reeling a crown of sonnets . our children leads to outside creampies centering in addition to remembers nourishment while William Carlos Williams . life shot out of a sound inserts after reeling fun.William Carlos Williams reeling if a crown of sonnets marks as its own before mustiness . mustiness flees as well as reeling love . into love in case of inserts within life shot out of a sound inserts mudpies . men flees financial backing then love departed light shut into a box inside life shot out of a sound . a crown of sonnets flaming your children with all mothers . financial backing siphons everything that is the case consequently departed in between light shut into a box . life shot out of a sound in addition to your children siphons in the midst of mustiness . the children inserts between dismembers some of the roadkill into light shut into a box . consequently a crown of sonnets inserts in between love . also growls William Carlos Williams , life shot out of a sound flees everything that is the case inside siphons mustiness magnifies under all mothers . love muddies and marks as its own mustiness into all mothers . the children departed as well as inserts a crown of sonnets . none of the sniper mists as if parted men . within nourishment then mustiness reeling among some of the roadkill insists mustiness. a crown of sonnets flaming all mothers as if men muddies creampies inside light shut into a box . fun muddies nourishment beside mudpies. your children marks as its own our children as if flaming without love . love in addition to life shot out of a sound flaming without mustiness . beauty reeling of course magnifies our children while William Carlos Williams also your children marks as its own up men flaming beauty . nourishment flaming all mothers while all mothers parted centering creampies among light shut into a box . our children departed among parted .some of the roadkill siphons in case of fun siphons up William Carlos Williams . mustiness mists because muddies light shut into a box in between our children . but life shot out of a sound growls over creampies . to parted the children , love insists mustiness with remembers of course men muddies after none of the sniper . our children flaming on the other hand points out that financial backing in between life shot out of a sound . everything that is the case flaming outside beauty . all mothers departed then centering creampies after creampies also beauty leads to before creampies magnifies mustiness . our children siphons your children at our children leads to between growls a crown of sonnets beside some of the roadkill . beauty flees on top of mists men.men remembers as if love insists all mothers . light shut into a box flees meanwhile dismembers William Carlos Williams . in between life shot out of a sound but nurses after men remembers some of the roadkill . some of the roadkill flees our children meanwhile a crown of sonnets magnifies light shut into a box under all mothers . William Carlos Williams dismembers mustiness on top of none of the sniper . all mothers flees beauty in case of inserts outside men . William Carlos Williams if everything that is the case inserts into nourishment . light shut into a box mists about reeling some of the roadkill after your children . consequently leads to inside some of the roadkill . in addition to siphons nourishment , your children dismembers men inside magnifies as if love mists down financial backing . fun magnifies to flaming men on top of everything that is the case . everything that is the case marks as its own then mists a crown of sonnets . love departed but flaming love . down creampies but beauty marks as its own inside the children departed the children. remembers mustiness on the other hand love dismembers nourishment on top of none of the sniper . a crown of sonnets light shut into a box in between your children. creampies siphons your children magnifies up your children . all mothers and a crown of sonnets roams beside some of the roadkill . creampies siphons meanwhile remembers the children beside men to all mothers insists as love flees men . creampies leads to fun creampies leads to because roams love among your children . financial backing flaming while dismembers your children.a crown of sonnets centering or the children departed after light shut into a box . mudpies inserts consequently magnifies a crown of sonnets in between light shut into a box . as well as a crown of sonnets flees on top of William Carlos Williams . consequently flees beauty , a crown of sonnets remembers fun among points out that about a crown of sonnets leads to as none of the sniper . mudpies reeling in addition to departed the children outside financial backing . none of the sniper flaming on top of creampies . your children mists of course flaming none of the sniper over men as if financial backing departed under nourishment departed love . a crown of sonnets parted all mothers on top of a crown of sonnets leads to remembers some of the roadkill as your children . dismembers among leads to none of the sniper.men dismembers on the other hand mudpies departed at the children . William Carlos Williams parted because insists your children . after life shot out of a sound between flees while William Carlos Williams magnifies light shut into a box . our children magnifies light shut into a box as if creampies remembers your children down men . beauty marks as its own light shut into a box in between men . insists men in addition to parted down the children . our children financial backing siphons in between some of the roadkill . all mothers muddies as well as magnifies nourishment among some of the roadkill . of course men muddies all mothers . on the other hand dismembers life shot out of a sound , financial backing centering a crown of sonnets over dismembers if mustiness remembers outside none of the sniper . creampies inserts consequently magnifies mudpies after mustiness . your children insists as well as parted men . none of the sniper remembers as well as parted your children . before a crown of sonnets therefore life shot out of a sound inserts on top of William Carlos Williams nurses financial backing. the children parted all mothers and fun insists light shut into a box as our children . life shot out of a sound inserts your children in the midst of life shot out of a sound. some of the roadkill nurses some of the roadkill however reeling down our children . life shot out of a sound of course all mothers reeling among none of the sniper . none of the sniper points out that because departed our children into mustiness meanwhile some of the roadkill mists on top of love inserts our children . men growls your children down the children flees consequently growls nourishment beside the children . some of the roadkill growls in the midst of siphons none of the sniper.none of the sniper departed consequently life shot out of a sound remembers with none of the sniper . your children magnifies and remembers our children without men . on the other hand love parted into the children . on the other hand parted some of the roadkill , some of the roadkill muddies fun after dismembers or mustiness marks as its own after beauty . nourishment nurses in case of marks as its own financial backing inside a crown of sonnets . all mothers reeling . ===== http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html meditation, net art, poeisis: blog http://lewislacook.blogspot.com/ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 10:27:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: Re: Request for EPC Link Suggestions In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Maybe this is off, but it seems axiomatic that all communities, traditions,= =20 cultures suffer, survive, and produce themselves through the entrenchment=20 and overthrow of conventions. I havne't read the Perloff piece but it seems= =20 that what the below is suggesting is that in recent years there are certain= =20 conventions some use to identify "the innovative." Like, uhh, disjunction,= =20 parataxis, even a certain Marxist politicism -- or even where the writer=20 went to school or who the writer mentions or alludes to. That we would establish conventions of who is "innovative" would make sense= =20 if a certain amount of cultural capital is associated with what can be=20 considered innovative and what can't. The term then begins to take on the=20 same kind of ironies as, say, "christian," which more often than not=20 doesn't mean someone devoted to humility, peace, and love but a hick who=20 votes for Bush and bombs Planned Parenthood clinics. So my thought would be, "the long drive to innovate" will remain ongoing,=20 yeah, so long as we don't entrench, reify, our sense of what innovation is= =20 and what it looks like. Gabe >"At times in recent years, one wonders how long the drive >to innovate can continue, especially when, as in the case >of [Mary Margaret] Sloan's _Moving Borders_[: Three Decades >of Innovative Writing by Women], fifty contemporary >American women poets are placed under the 'innovative' >umbrella. Given these numbers, one wonders, who isn't >innovative? And how much longer can poets keep innovating >without finding themselves inadvertently Making It Old?" > >She notes, however, that "it was not always thus. The OED >reminds us that innovation was once synonymous with >sedition and even treason." Best example: Edmund Burke, >1796 -- French Revolution is "a revolt of innovation; and >thereby, the very elements of society have been confounded >and dissipated." > >I don't know that both contemporary and antiquated senses >aren't more or less enacted when we use the term >"innovative" to refer to poetry (if with a nonpejorative >spin in the latter case). But the word does have the >somewhat unfortunate connotation of onward and upward with >the arts forever, manifest destiny, cult of progress, etc. >I guess I prefer the slightly oxymoronic "experimental >tradition" -- we do seem to need a term -- and I suppose >that's because "experimental" connotes the laboratory. (Lab >not workshop -- producing findings not commodities.) >"Experimental" might play ultimately into a scientistic >telos, but then progress is a kind of myth in science as >well. We don't write in four-stress accentual meter >anymore, and we don't think the earth is the center of the >universe, but neither predilection is therefore discounted. > >Damian > > > >On Thu, 24 Oct 2002 16:39:51 -0500 Thomas Bell > wrote: > > > I may be just having a bemusing day but can't stop musing over the= meaning > > of 'innovative poetry'. From a practitioner's perspective it's hard to > > imagine poetry that's not innovative? > > > > tom bell > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Loss Peque=F1o Glazier" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 7:06 AM > > Subject: Request for EPC Link Suggestions > > > > > > > We are presently updating our list of EPC links to sites for= innovative > > > poetry (including print magazines, print publishers, poetry e-zines,= =20 > etc.) > > > and innovative new media works. We welcome suggestions from members=20 > of the > > > list and will do our best to include all relevant suggestions,= depending > > on > > > volume. Please submit suggestions at: > > > http://epc.buffalo.edu/forms/link.html > > > Thanks! > ><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< >damian judge rollison >department of english >university of virginia > djr4r@virginia.edu > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gabriel Gudding Assistant Professor Department of English Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 office 309.438.5284 home 309.828.8377 http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 08:51:52 -0700 Reply-To: chax@theriver.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: charles alexander Subject: Re: Request for EPC Link Suggestions In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit While I don't necessarily disagree that the term "innovative" is too loose, too often applied, and on the verge of meaning nothing, I have to disagree that because it's applied to women in Mary Margaret Sloan's anthology (50 poets), that means that all contemporary poets are innovative. First of all, the poets in Sloan's anthology cover a lot of ground, and cover not only "this" moment, but at least 70 years in time, in terms of when those poets were most active (although the anthology itself argues that it includes Lorine Niedecker because her work started to become known only about 30 or so years ago). And while she may include 50 poets, that's not so many; there are literally hundreds of poets, maybe thousands, who would not be included in that anthology, and I think Sloan could make a pretty good argument, on aesthetic grounds, why they would not. I don't know the answer to this problem. I do think Cole Swensen is innovative in comparison to Marilyn Hacker, Juliana Spahr is innovative in comparison to Linda Gregg, Karen Mac Cormack is innovative in comparison to Anne Carson, and I could go on and on, but this doesn't tell us much about what innovative means, and it's going to mean different things in different specific examples. But I also don't think we can simply lose the term. "Experimental" doesn't work any better; neither does "avant-garde" or anything else I can think of. "Experimental" is something easily discounted -- i.e., that's just an "experiment," even though, of course experiments are not discounted at all in the scientific disciplines. "Avant-garde" just implies too much of a war going on on the poetic trenches, although there are days when I feel that is not altogether untrue. So I, too, like Mary Margaret Sloan, have settled on "innovative" until something better comes along, knowing that I have to explain, at various times and in various detail, what I find that is innovative, and why. Also knowing that there is something of an "innovative tradition" (probably much like your "experimental tradition"), and while that may sound oxymoronic, I love linking my own work and that of other contemporary poets to poets of innovation or experimentation that go back 400 years or more. I mean, after all, wasn't Thomas Wyatt innovative, wasn't Christopher Smart innovative, and hasn't such innovation always (or at least often) involved using work and ideas of the past, but not necessarily using it in traditional ways. So why shouldn't there be a tradition of such work. I agree entirely, though, that to equate innovation with "progress," "onward and upward," and a sense that the new is always better, is highly problematic, at the very least. charles >"At times in recent years, one wonders how long the drive >to innovate can continue, especially when, as in the case >of [Mary Margaret] Sloan's _Moving Borders_[: Three Decades >of Innovative Writing by Women], fifty contemporary >American women poets are placed under the 'innovative' >umbrella. Given these numbers, one wonders, who isn't >innovative? And how much longer can poets keep innovating >without finding themselves inadvertently Making It Old?" > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 11:53:10 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Michael Moore Message In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v546) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, It Was a Bushmaster October 25, 2002 Dear friends, Yesterday, Larry Bennett, a 16-year old, was shot in the head after he was involved in a minor traffic accident. You probably didn't hear about it because, well, how could he be dead if he wasn't shot by The Sniper? Yesterday, an unidentified woman was shot to death in her car in Fenton, MI. You probably didn't hear about it because she had the misfortune of not being shot by The Sniper. Two nights ago, Charles D. Bennett, 48, an apartment security guard, was shot to death after confronting two teenagers in his parking lot in Memphis, TN. You probably didn't hear about it because the sniper was too busy sleeping in his car that night, and thus, poor Charles was not shot by The Sniper. Yes, The Sniper has apparently been caught, so we can go back now to NOT reporting the DOZENS of gun deaths that occur every day, the ones that just aren't newsworthy because they happen in all those old boring ways -- unlike the ways of The Sniper, who was interesting and creative and exciting and scary! He played so much better on the news. Of course, had Congress not caved in to the NRA, we would have known after the first HOUR of the first day of the killings three weeks ago that the rifle those bullets were coming out of belonged to John Williams/Mohammad. Many more people died needlessly after that day, and every one of their deaths could have probably been prevented had we had a national ballistics fingerprinting data base. Thank you, Mr. Heston for this unnecessary carnage. Thank you, Mr. Bush, for supporting Mr. Heston and his group's agenda -- which protects only the criminals. If everyone reading this letter (and you now number in the millions) would share this fact with just one person who is thinking of skipping going to the polls on Nov. 5th, I believe that on Nov. 6th, Mr. Bush will have neither the Senate nor the House doing his or Heston's bidding. Americans don't like people who assist serial killers in being able to ratchet up their kills because The Sniper knows that his bullets are prohibited by law from being traced to his gun. That, in a nutshell, is what the NRA is all about -- and I implore all responsible gun owners and hunters to join with me in putting an end to the NRA agenda once and for all. Don't give Bush his majority on November 5th. He's already seen to it that his cronies in big business have wiped out your 401 (K), and they are doing their best to see that you are left with no pension at all. That alone should be reason enough to NOT pull a single lever for a Republican on Nov. 5th. Send a message. Do something brave. Yours, Michael Moore mike@michaelmoore.com www.michaelmoore.com PS. "Bowling for Columbine" opens in a few dozen new cities this weekend, including Portland, Minneapolis, Sacramento, South Florida, Atlanta, Dallas, Houston, Baltimore, St. Louis, Kansas City, Cleveland, a bunch of towns in New Jersey, that village in Connecticut where we liberated the beaches, a theatre in Times Square, Detroit (Royal Oak), and Denver. Click here (http://www.bowlingforcolumbine.com/about/theaters.php) to see the full list of theatres where it opens today. PPS. Don't forget to show up in DC or SF tomorrow to voice your opposition to the War on Iraq. Many other cities are holding rallies. Check out my mission from the Office of Homeland Security (http://www.michaelmoore.com) for details. PPPS. You can find out more about the candidates to beat and the ones to support in the upcoming election here: http://www.bowlingforcolumbine.com/involved/gop.php. --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 11:04:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: Request for EPC Link Suggestions In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20021025100624.015213d8@mail.ilstu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v543) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit the meme of iNNOVELTY or the dynamism of iNNOVATITY? innovation for innovation's sake is everywhere. being a culture built on industry that depends on the idea of old & new to exist, thrive, exploit. or differently, innovative cultural production which continually enables a linkage between what has existed & is still useful & what is imagined to be useful in the future. the oPEN sOURCE mOVEMENT or the pERMACULTURE movement are both examples of this. I hope this is a prerogative in digital culture too, but with a technology that is so inexplicably mARKETDRIVEN its cYBERLICIOUSLY easy to get off track... it has happened to me endless times over the course of my experiments with hypermedia. mIEKAL On Friday, October 25, 2002, at 10:27 AM, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > > So my thought would be, "the long drive to innovate" will remain > ongoing, yeah, so long as we don't entrench, reify, our sense of what > innovation is and what it looks like. > > Gabe > mIEKAL aND memexikon@mwt.net | ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 09:58:35 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: Re: Michael Moore Message's is not enough In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v546) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable though I thought M.M's movie was a good slap in the face of a nation of=20= fear and violence, I do not think it went far enough. Here in Northern=20= california, a youth was murdered because sie, choose to live a life of=20= freedom and not one of the artificial binds of historical oppression=20 (enforced by the state I may add - on all levels)...so far this year=20 over 20 individuals who choose not to live in lies of this artificial=20 binary where hacked, gunned down, pummeled, stabbed andor beaten to=20 death (this does not count those who where simply assaulted, raped or =20= wounded). Gendercentricism has done more harm to children then can be imagined.=20 as a psychotherapist, I see way to many injured individuals suffering=20 from a subtle but legal form of segregation ... I also might add that=20 not only is this segregation legalized by the courts, and laws, it is=20= constantly enforced by brutal violence. kari edwards _____ San Francisco Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transgender Community Center The statement can be found pasted below or online at: http://www.sfgaycenter.org/news1.php?id_article=3D23 The murder of Gwen Araujo is far from the first anti-transgender murder and it is with sadness and outrage that we know she will not be the last. This is not an isolated incident. Gwen=EDs murder is representative of a continuum of violence and harassment in our communities and schools faced by people who blaze a path for all of us by pushing the lines of gender. The National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs reports that violence against transgender people went up 41% between 2000 and 2001. And a majority of youth in schools continue to report that they either hear of or experience anti gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgender harassment or violence. Most of us have personally experienced hate violence against our bodies. All of us have felt the blow of hate violence in our lives. When something like this occurs it brings to the surface old wounds and renews a sense of vulnerability and isolation. But we are not alone. > =46rom isolation, we reach out to build community and act together to build a movement. We are our friends' found families. We are reinventing gender. Everywhere we build social service programs, support networks and community centers. For all of us, in every community and in every town and city in this nation: Gwen=EDs murder reminds us again of why none of us can be silent in the face of intolerance, or quietly accept the climate of hate and fear that makes such a crime possible. May we all accept anew our responsibility to be agents of healing and action in order to build communities that we all long for and deserve. In our grief: We remember Alina Marie Barragan a latina transgender youth who was strangled to death. We remember Brandon Teena, a transgender teenager in Nebraska, raped and later murdered. We remember Rebecca Wight who was murdered on the Appalachian Trail. We remember Scott Amedure of Michigan who was murdered after his appearance on the Jenny Jones show because he said he had a crush on a straight man. We remember Ricky Espinosa whose body was found in a landfill in El Paso. We remember 16-year-old Fred Martinez Jr whose body was found in a canyon south of Cortez, Colorado and whose grave was desecrated. We remember Brian Wilmes of San Francisco who was viciously beaten to death outside a gay bar by a man screaming anti-gay epithets. We remember Tyra Hunter, mocked by D.C. emergency workers as she lay critically injured simply because she was transgendered. We remember Tracy Thompson who was struck in the head with a baseball bat. We remember Emmon Bodfish who was bludgeoned to death. We remember Chareka Keys who died of blunt trauma to the head. And we remember countless others in every community targeted for violence on the street and in our schools. On Friday, October 25, 2002, at 08:53 AM, Michael Moore's Mailing List=20= wrote: > Yes, It Was a Bushmaster > > October 25, 2002 > > Dear friends, > > Yesterday, Larry Bennett, a 16-year old, was shot in the head after he=20= > was > involved in a minor traffic accident. You probably didn't hear about = it > because, well, how could he be dead if he wasn't shot by The Sniper? > > Yesterday, an unidentified woman was shot to death in her car in=20 > Fenton, > MI. You probably didn't hear about it because she had the misfortune=20= > of not > being shot by The Sniper. > > Two nights ago, Charles D. Bennett, 48, an apartment security guard,=20= > was > shot to death after confronting two teenagers in his parking lot in > Memphis, TN. You probably didn't hear about it because the sniper was=20= > too > busy sleeping in his car that night, and thus, poor Charles was not=20 > shot by > The Sniper. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 10:08:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hilton Obenzinger Subject: Re: group thot? In-Reply-To: <002b01c27bc7$f4d67940$0cf137d2@01397384> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Harry likes to needle, but I have never called him a racist, and I don't at all mind his defense of Zionism or questioning me or anyone. I do think that horrible crimes are being committed against Palestinians, that many in the West, including the media, appear to be blind to these crimes. The Israeli military attacks schools and hospitals in Gaza, settlers terrorize Palestinian villagers, forcing them to flee, preventing olive harvests, or all you have to do is observe the swimming pools and lush lawns in settlements alongside parched Palestinian farmland to understand the vastly discriminatory nature of colonialism. The horrors of a suicide bomber will obscure those crimes, but they persist. It's pretty clear, but as Wolfowitz and Rumsfeld would put it, if you look through the right lens, you will see what you want to see. Actually, I think many if not most Americans are far more aware and sympathetic than the media allows -- and they are not at all interested in attacking Iraq, despite their legitimate fears of lunatic violence directed at us. Let us pray. Hilton At 02:43 PM 10/25/2002 +1300, you wrote: >Hilton. I like Harry but he is obsessed with this: the quote from Twain is >apt. Harry is actually coming from a racist perspective ...he simply cant >see it... cant see that in fact that zionism is racist: its implications >are that the Jews are superior to the Arabs ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hilton Obenzinger, PhD. Associate Director of Undergraduate Research Programs for Honors Writing Lecturer, Department of English Stanford University 650.723.0330 650.724.5400 Fax obenzinger@stanford.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 13:35:15 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: int'l poetry cultures (was Report from Czech Republic Poetry Festival) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/25/02 3:38:05 AM, andyrathmann@EARTHLINK.NET writes: > it can also be the way great actors perform the richness of contemporary >speech. One example might be Jeff Bridges (a truly great actor, I think) >in "The Big Lebowski." I think that that film in particular has imagined >and paid homage to the speech of our time Andrew, I also enjoy Jeff Bridges's wonderful turns of phrases in The Big ebowski"; but you can hardly call his speech contemporary. It is rather retro hip or retro beat, retro Vietnam, whatever. It is Jeff Bridges's sense of irony using that language (his pee stained machine made rug "completing the room" or his admiration of the "trophy wife" or his writing a check for fifty-five cents or his phantasy bowling dance number which makes the movie so wonderful. In other Coen Brothers movies the language is merely cute, therefore, insufferable (the Dakotan accent in "Fargo"), phony (the sepia of "Oh Brother where art thou"), super pretensious ("Fink"). Ciao. Are we the only ones who talk about movies here? Murat ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 13:37:23 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anastasios Kozaitis Subject: Re: int'l poetry cultures (was Report from Czech Republic Poetry Festival) In-Reply-To: <14.de135e.2aeadad3@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "I'm the dude. So that's what you call me. You know…ah…that or ah…His Dudeness or ah Duder, You know or El Dudarino if you're not into the whole brevity thing…." At 01:35 PM 10/25/2002, you wrote: >In a message dated 10/25/02 3:38:05 AM, andyrathmann@EARTHLINK.NET writes: > > > it can also be the way great actors perform the richness of contemporary > >speech. One example might be Jeff Bridges (a truly great actor, I think) > >in "The Big Lebowski." I think that that film in particular has imagined > >and paid homage to the speech of our time > >Andrew, > >I also enjoy Jeff Bridges's wonderful turns of phrases in The Big ebowski"; >but you can hardly call his speech contemporary. It is rather retro hip or >retro beat, retro Vietnam, whatever. It is Jeff Bridges's sense of irony >using that language (his pee stained machine made rug "completing the room" >or his admiration of the "trophy wife" or his writing a check for fifty-five >cents or his phantasy bowling dance number which makes the movie so wonderful. > >In other Coen Brothers movies the language is merely cute, therefore, >insufferable (the Dakotan accent in "Fargo"), phony (the sepia of "Oh Brother >where art thou"), super pretensious ("Fink"). > >Ciao. Are we the only ones who talk about movies here? > >Murat ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 10:49:09 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Corbett Subject: Re: Request for EPC Link Suggestions In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20021025100624.015213d8@mail.ilstu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII an interesting comparison is in the indie rock community. there the by word is more underground than experimental, but what you do with work that has been coming from the underground for 20-30 years, has its own network of distribution (clubs, college radio stations, independent record stores (Seattle has more of these than it does independent non-used book bookstores)) that is no way as "underground" as it was in the 80s, let alone seventies. notoriously "alternative" became a record store marketing category after Nirvana broke. and since pop music is considerably more commodified than poetry, the rewards (seeming) of leaving the underground are quite considerable. at the same time, it seems to me that you really can distinguish the bands that organically came to their style and those who took the measure of what folks liked. and certain tendencies in "underground" music remains resolutely underground. which can be disheartening, when it seems that dedicated and musically sophisticated folks like Fugazi and Superchunk still tour in vans and hold down day jobs. and it is not that these bands are resolutely dissonant (has anyone else noticed that Sonic Youth is getting closer to being a pop band with each album...a really strange, Velvet Undergroundy pop band, but then Lou Reed wrote some gorgeous folk-pop songs which should be standards the way some less deserving Beatles songs are standards) either: I remember listening to XTC and wondering how it was possible that Van Halen could be more popular than them. and now it's why don't Jenny Toomey or Rebecca Gates have, like, 1/10 the sales of Avril Lavigne. The point is that most of the musicians are not trying to be difficult, but they are also not willing to play the networking game either. nevertheless, when I listen to a band like Joy Division, I get the feeling that nearly every single move in underground music is there and it is there in the shocking and vivid colors of the New. here is music that is genuinely from the "underground." and one can keep playing this game...i suppose you might end up at Herakleitos. at the same time, I think there is something organic and vital about indie rock. sometimes I think I becoming like a boomer who cannot let go of the Eagles, but sometimes I think, no, the Eagles were always shite, whereas Joy Division (and all the bands the remind of them) were golden. and you could airlift, say, Confucius to our era and he would agree. the upshot is, art should be defiantly local and communal. because that this the only route to the universal (whatever (and I mean whatever) that is). Robert -- Robert Corbett "I will discuss perfidy with scholars as rcor@u.washington.edu as if spurning kisses, I will sip Department of English the marble marrow of empire. I want sugar University of Washington but I shall never wear shame and if you call that sophistry then what is Love" - Lisa Robertson ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 14:09:38 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: Anselm Berrigan and John Yau read SAT 10/26 at 5 PM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Wordsworth Books 30 Brattle St. Cambridge, MA 02138 SAT 10/26 at 5 PM John Yau and Anselm Berrigan read Kevin Killian on Berrigan's ZERO STAR HOTEL: "It's a wonderful book and a big, huge quantum leap for Anselm Berrigan, whose previous work I have also enjoyed, but this book is really something different, it gives you the passionate can't-put-it-down experience of reading a great novel, and technically it's so assured you don't even notice how he, Anselm, is producing all his effects. The hero of "Zero Star Hotel" goes on a mythic quest; the story's told very simply, with lots of gritty detail and an attention to surfaces and realities that grabs your interest and won't let go. I can't speak highly enough about "Zero Star Hotel" but in the words of Paula Abdul, Anselm, you have raised the bar for all of us, you're my American idol now." Tom Devaney on John Yau's BORROWED LOVE POEMS "What if Dante watched a steady diet of movies and was completely submerged in all manner of the hi-lo late last century? John Yau's new collection "Borrowed Love Poems," confronts the reader with a wide and wild array of characters. Like the Divine Comedy, in Yau we meet all manner of unrepentant madmen and women, all manner of peace makers and other folks just blown to pieces. Each character, line and poem forge ahead in the most subtle, absorbed and artful kind of connections, semantic and otherwise. Many poems such as "I Was a Poet in the House of Frankenstein," (which I first read and re-read many times in 1999) are a collection of characters and connections, which absorb everything in their theater of uninterrupted and rollicking play. Yau has at his disposal an abundance of stylistic devices, which variously show poetry's roomy nature and ability to absorb all other media. From movies, music, painting, and 'storied fibs piled high,' Yau's animated vernacular translates the familar all around us from "that cold/hard glue some zealots/ still call the world." Yau's love of language and precise and animated surfaces are utterly convincing and pleasurable." Jim Behrle Events Director Wordsworth Books 30 Brattle St. Cambridge, MA 02138 (617) 354 5201 fax (617) 354 4674 jim@wordsworth.com www.wordsworth.com _________________________________________________________________ Broadband? Dial-up? Get reliable MSN Internet Access. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 11:21:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Drunken Boat Subject: Reading at Juno's in NYC In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii This Sunday, October 27 at 8pm, at Junno's, 64 Downing Street, in the West Village (it's just east of 7th Avenue on the south side of the street; there's a McDonald's on the corner and the intersection is barely half a block north of Houston, with the Houston St stop on the 1/9 train right there, and Film Forum close by); Ravi Shankar reads with Rangi MacNeil and Marc Woodworth whose first book Arcade was published by Grove last winter. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 14:32:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: poem Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Proof of Lifelessness Carried off by waves of fear or "Fear" when even sad hypnosis fails to titillate It's time for bigger guns and hands: fingers sparky w/ glass Uncertain but booming voices along the river, you choose your afterlife, a most hectic last-minute Escape The fast food windows and sexy menus suppress All wisdoms Neon holds wide virtues, Waters deeper than the bottomless You are sudden, are fast-acting, you come In pills the size of a Dog Without your heroes it's another Day in Line behind cheap clones of Jesus and the Buddha When you are pounding upon my bloody chest Shrieking, you feel new Powers Let's get back to fundamentalisms and other card table enjoyments While you're wishing for moonlight, we got poppers, while you're Poet Laureate I'll be demonic backwash Skid row has never looked better, it's the fucking drapes There's a pall over this city, while Mary somehow comes and goes _________________________________________________________________ Choose an Internet access plan right for you -- try MSN! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 12:37:34 -0700 Reply-To: antrobin@clipper.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anthony Robinson Subject: poem about gabriel gudding In-Reply-To: <6D902CD8-E833-11D6-80C1-0003935A5BDA@mwt.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Gabriel Gudding is in my ass. Yes, the minor poet Gabriel Gudding has set up residence In my butt. He seems more major than minor, Especially when I sit down. Gabriel Gudding the minor poet never answers My emails or phonecalls. He says it's too dark in my ass, And besides, I am sub-minor poet. I once had drinks With Kent Johnson, but I don't remember what he looked like. After three martinis, Kent said "Say, is that Gabe Gudding Poking out of your ass?" I said 'No, that's a turtle head." It was Gabe Gudding, though. He had written new poems. I was shitting out Gabe Gudding instead of his poems. One day when I was extremely bored, I wrote a poem For the minor poet in my ass. It was an extremely minor poem But it included sodomy and rape and wine, things we should Think about more often. Sometimes when I'm feeling wistful I think about the time Gabriel Gudding took me to the prom, And I feel a little sorry that he is ensconced in my rectum. After all, we had a great time. The punch was boffo, And the DJ played all the hottest hits, and Gabe's wife Was looking dynamite. I was at the prom with Gabe And his wife and Gabe was not in my butt. We discussed Poetry and I licked the underside of his fetlock. I was very embarassed. I said, "I condemn thee to my ass, Gabriel Gudding," and that was the last time I saw him. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 07:17:56 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: komninos zervos Subject: Re: int'l poetry cultures (was Report from Czech Republic Poetry Festival) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-C7332D; boundary="=======1A4F7B6=======" --=======1A4F7B6======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-C7332D; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >*Just an aside, but I think the inanity of Hollywood dialogue can make us >forget that the most intense pleasure of cinema doesn't have to be visual >spectacle: it can also be the way great actors perform the richness of >contemporary speech. One example might be Jeff Bridges (a truly great >actor, I think) in "The Big Lebowski." I think that that film in >particular has imagined and paid homage to the speech of our time. what about seinfeld? some of the greatest poetry ever you're killing independent george! it's an elaine and suzi problem, suzi and elaine trouble is if you look for poetry in dialogue you never get time to write it down, cos you're too busily involved in listening or conversing komninos http://users.bigpond.net.au/mangolegs --=======1A4F7B6======= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-avg=cert; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-C7332D Content-Disposition: inline --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.404 / Virus Database: 228 - Release Date: 15/10/02 --=======1A4F7B6=======-- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 15:33:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Damian Judge Rollison Subject: "Innovative"/"Experimental" In-Reply-To: <3DB96898.5080403@theriver.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII I think you concede the point, Charles, if I may. These binaries (Juliana Spahr/Linda Gregg, etc.) suggest that "innovative" can function as a deductive category rather than an inductive characterization. It would be reasonable to assume that, were I to write a poem that clearly demonstrated my sympathetic and thorough understanding of Charles Bernstein's corpus, but did not on its own display a measurable "newness," such a poem would be more likely called "innovative" than "mainstream" or "workshop." Yet the positive innovation it contained might be marginal or nonexistent. Marjorie can speak for herself (is she still on the list?), but I take her to be implying that "innovative" has simply lost a measure of its explanatory power, has become somewhat calcified as a designation. So I'll stick up for "experimental." ("Avant-garde" is basically a martial variation on "innovative," ne c'est pas?) Precisely *because* "experimental" suggests "that's just an experiment" -- "All Thought emits a Throw of the Dice" -- which throw never abolishes chance -- and because "experiment" really seems to draw a distinction: it's a paradigm the "mainstream" does not acknowledge. "Innovative" strikes me as less paradigmatic than descriptive of some specific accomplishment. Whereas not every poem or poet we'd want to put in the "innovative" camp is actually a representative of significant innovation, most if not all would be committed to a vision of the poetic as a site for experiment: hazard, derangement of the senses, defamiliarization of language, process, provisionality. As for the "other side" (admittedly it's a fuzzy borderline): Perloff has another of her funny examples of official-verse-culture poetry in the aforementioned essay: Hollandaise The sauce thickens. I add more butter, slowly. Sometimes we drank the best wine while we cooked for friends, knowing nothing could go wrong, the souffle would rise, the custard set, the cheese be ripe. We imagined we were reckless but we were just happy, and good at our work. The cookbook is firm: it is safer not to go over two ounces of butter for each egg yolk. I try to describe to myself how we could have been safer, what we exceeded. If the sauce "turns" there are things to be done, steps to be taken that are not miraculous, that assume the failed ingredients, that assume a willing suspension of despair. (The Morrow Anthology of Younger Poets, 107-108) She writes: "Here McCaffery's arrow of reference is flying straight into the saucepan, ready to curdle that hollandaise. The lasting contribution of Language poetics, I would posit, is that at a moment when workshop poetry all across the U.S. was wedded to a kind of neo-confessionalist, neo-realistic poetic discourse, a discourse committed to drawing pretentious metaphors about failed relationships from hollandaise recipes, language theory reminded us that poetry is a making [_poeien_], a construction using language, rhythm, sound, and visual image, that the subject, far from being simply the poet speaking in his or her natural 'voice,' was itself a complex construction, and that -- most important -- there was actually something at stake in producing a body of poems, and that poetic discourse belonged to the same universe as philosophical and political discourse." "Innovation" should perhaps be reserved for major watersheds (subject to contestation as they always are (viz recent discussion of the NAP)) -- Language Writing is of course one of these, but anybody who writes more or less under that rubric is not therefore an innovator. Christopher Smart was innovative, sure (though "insane" was the term at the time), and Thomas Wyatt -- but here I think you're talking watersheds. On the other hand, I don't mean to imply that anybody who likes "innovative" is lazy or wrong. I didn't get a lot of sleep last night, and I may be making more of this than I should. "Innovative" denotes altering, making changes, making it new, and in one frame of mind you might say that the designation is meant to apply to composition -- this seems to be what Tom had in mind in his original post ("from a practitioner's perspective") -- rather than to intertextual change. But then I must admit, I'm still stuck thinking the term doesn't really describe anything. Every poem "from a practitioner's perspective" is an innovation. Or not? Best, Damian > I do think Cole Swensen is innovative in comparison to > Marilyn Hacker, Juliana Spahr is innovative in comparison > to Linda Gregg, Karen Mac Cormack is innovative in > comparison to Anne Carson, and I could go on and on, but > this doesn't tell us much about what innovative means, > and it's going to mean different things in different > specific examples. But I also don't think we can simply > lose the term. "Experimental" doesn't work any better; > neither does "avant-garde" or anything else I can think of. > "Experimental" is something easily discounted -- i.e., that's just an > "experiment," even though, of course experiments are not discounted at > all in the scientific disciplines. "Avant-garde" just implies too much > of a war going on on the poetic trenches, although there are days when I > feel that is not altogether untrue. > > So I, too, like Mary Margaret Sloan, have settled on "innovative" until > something better comes along, knowing that I have to explain, at various > times and in various detail, what I find that is innovative, and why. > Also knowing that there is something of an "innovative tradition" > (probably much like your "experimental tradition"), and while that may> sound oxymoronic, I love linking my own work and that of other > contemporary poets to poets of innovation or experimentation that go > back 400 years or more. I mean, after all, wasn't Thomas Wyatt > innovative, wasn't Christopher Smart innovative, and hasn't such > innovation always (or at least often) involved using work and ideas of > the past, but not necessarily using it in traditional ways. So why > shouldn't there be a tradition of such work. > > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< damian judge rollison department of english university of virginia djr4r@virginia.edu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 17:42:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: Whitman's 9/11 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I am the mashed fireman with breastbone broken . . . . tumbling walls buried me in their debris, Heat and smoke I inspired . . . . I heard the yelling shouts of my comrades, I heard the distant click of their picks and shovels; They have cleared the beams away . . . . they tenderly lift me forth. --"Song of Myself," lines 843-46 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 15:56:27 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: charles alexander Subject: Re: "Innovative"/"Experimental" In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Damian, As you explain it, I'll take "experimental" any day. Yet in my experience, and admittedly a lot of it has been living outside places where the "experimental" thrived, I've been among many who used "experimental" as a kind of derogatory displacing gesture. Yet I have to admit, I'd rather be dissed by those who had such opinions about "experimental" poetry, than to be accepted by them. So I'm happy to have "experimental" take the day, but I don't have a particular problem with Sloan and others using "innovative." charles ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 16:02:00 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Corbett Subject: Re: "Innovative"/"Experimental" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The benefit of "experimental" (and I admit that not all will share my view) is that Wordsworth explicitly calls his work in _Lyrical Ballads_ "experiments." You can thus draw a direct line from contemporary work back to watershed that broke the levee, but who is also the progenitor of the workshop style (though Keats is more often invoked). By "experiment" he meant something closer to the scientific sense, but he was also interested in open forms, bringer subjects into poetry not traditionally thought of as poetic, and refining poetic language. It's not for nothing that Hazlitt said his was a "leveling muse." Robert -- Robert Corbett "I will discuss perfidy with scholars as rcor@u.washington.edu as if spurning kisses, I will sip Department of English the marble marrow of empire. I want sugar University of Washington but I shall never wear shame and if you call that sophistry then what is Love" - Lisa Robertson ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 22:33:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: "Innovative"/"Experimental" and Intl. poetry MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Tracing poetry as experiment back to Whitman is interesting. My sense is that this is very much alive in Russia and Eastern Europe and perhaps elsewhere even though it has withered on the vine of consumerism and product orientation in the US and by extension, much of the internet. When I 'try' to make a poem or try to read or perform or read one I find myself more and more interested in the process of trying than in the finished product and this might explain some of the current fascination with poetics? Even though 'innovative' and 'experimental' (in another sense) and very marketable terms these days in the public's and academic minds I suspect Loss didn't really intend to give his announcement this particular marketing spin and this was why i queried it. tom bell ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 18:26:06 -0700 Reply-To: cstroffo@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino Subject: "Experimental" ("Fragment") MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This seems to parallel or at least relate to the currently fashionable use of the word 'fragment' I recently asked someone recently known to be proponent of contemporary fragment if they knew that Keats for instance referred to his poems as 'fragments' and they said no Not that I see it as a benefit per se... Robert Corbett wrote: > The benefit of "experimental" (and I admit that not all will share my > view) is that Wordsworth explicitly calls his work in _Lyrical Ballads_ > "experiments." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 21:46:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Geoffrey Gatza Subject: Re: Fence Books Fall 2002 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A SONG FOR THE MOONPIE the moonpie is more tasty later when i am watching TV with my pie watching the moon with my tasty pie about the tasty moonpie in my moon tummy the real moon tummy real too real for my moonpie the moon in my pie is better for pastry the real moonpie of pastry is better for me is better for my tummy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 19:27:52 -0700 Reply-To: Lanny Quarles Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lanny Quarles Subject: CHICKENSCRATCH Comments: To: spidertangle@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable CHICKENSCRATCH www.hevanet.com/solipsis/chickenscratch (ie only) now has work by: KATHY ERNST=20 JIM LEFTWICH TIM GAZE JOHN M. BENNETT LANNY QUARLES JAKE BERRY JESSE GLASS=20 NIKO VASSILAKIS=20 WILLIAM JAMES AUSTIN=20 ANDREW TOPEL=20 SPENCER SELBY=20 ALLEN GENTRY=20 and coming soon=20 Peter Ganick Ross Priddle Submissions to the Gallery are always welcome.. 10 to 15 images emailed or snailed.. "Permanent" display.. Handwritten work especially prized.. not essential though.. Curator: Lanny Quarles ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 01:05:01 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: vision of the future net from 1995 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ( From a course I offered at the New School in 1995 - just found this and thought it might be of interest - Alan ) Item 10 20-JUN-95 14:31 Alan Sondheim (asondhei) Graphic and other Interfaces for the Information Highway I think, given the discussion about the graphic user interfaces, this text below might be of interest - it was used in last semester's class and posted on the Net as well. (From March) We're moving ahead of the "how do you use the Internet" portion of the utline, since this, as a topic, has been coming up repeatedly... Future Interfacing on the Net and Information Highway - A major issue arising in relation to the future of the Internet and Information Highway, is the nature of the user interfaces that will be available. The interfaces are more than transparent windows into the Net services and databases; they also express philosophies of interaction. Below are some of the concerns involved. 1. Text or image-driven? Mosaic, Netscape, and other applications clearly favor image-driven browsing. Pictures are used not only as ornament, but also as icons governing entrance into the Net. Format well beyond the traditional look of ascii is becoming increasingly important. 2. Point-and-click or keyboard-driven. More and more, applications are moving to mouse interaction. This can be considerably slower than command-line (typed) interfacing, particularly if aliases are used; a keystroke/return or just a keystroke can be quicker than point-and-click requiring two interacting movements. The keystroke entrance also allows tailoring of commands. 3. Speed of access. How quick is the interface? This is determined by the local machine, the server, the interface interaction, and the ability of the user to successfully operate the keyboard or mouse. 4. Menu/Hypertext/Icon. Like all of these concerns, there are over- laps here. A menu-driven system, like gopher itself, is based on cursor movement or number-entrance, on a line-by-line basis. If the menu is long, this can be tiresome. A hypertext system, like the World Wide Web, uses in general only four arrow keys; again, there can be considerable scrolling involved. Both of these, of course, can also use the mouse, which is generally at the heart of an icon-system in which point-and-click moves around a group of scattered symbols on the screen. 5. In general, the more polished the interface, the less individual configuring is possible. But this may change, as image-driven inter- faces, even point-and-click, allow for access to deeper and more varied levels than the older command-line operations. 6. In a decade or so, text and image-driven interfacing may become obsolete, replaced by information-shaping applications utilizing intel- ligent agents, configured for the individual user. These agents would have the ability to respond through any input/output, including voice, joystick, keyboard, touch-screen, and three-dimensional mouse. Infor- mation and format would coalesce into a single object. 7. Information-shaping would lead to _shape-riding,_ the ability to figuratively ride shapes, transform them, in a manner similar to that of "liquid architecture," described by Marcos Novak in Benedikt's Cyberspace: First Steps. Such shape-riding is based on an individual trajectory through cyberspace. 8. In addition to shape-riding, there is community interfacing, the use of liquid architectures or information-shaping to create and inhabit cyberspace communities, which may be information- and/or socially-oriented. These communities will be the descendents of the current MOOs, MUSHs, and MUDs, all multi-user domains found on the Net. 9. Currently, development is also heading toward the _virtual office,_ which can be anything from a full virtual-reality environment to an office representation on a "personal digital assistant" (PDA). The virtual office is paralleled by the remnants of horse-drawn carriage construction built into the design of early automobiles - or even the presence of the static camera which dominated early film. (The camera thereby represents the static spectator sitting in a theater audience, instead of a fully-mobile spectator immersed in the action.) Chance are that the office imagery will change radically over the next few years, as users become more comfortable with on-line life, and tradi- tional routines (even such as downloading to hard-copy paper) are for- gotten or bypassed. 10. The interface itself, in any form, will become a confluence of media, including moving images (animations and video in general), sound, and, in VR, constantly transforming environments. Human inter- action will change within two decades to more "cerebral" operations, using eye-movement and brain electrical activity for control. 11. Virtual sexuality will become integrated with future interfacing; sexuality is already one of the prime content-elements of the Net. Full-body control and response may become a basic component of commu- nication; this depends of course to some extent on regulation. 12. The _visions_ that emerge from this - the world as menu or hyper- text, the body as integrated into communications or data bases, liquid architecture and shape-riding replacing the static and "obdurate" pre- sence of objects in real life - will obviously modify the _subject_ herself or himself. It is hard to speculate on what will happen in these environments in the long term. For one thing, application and community become equivalent, each creating and interpenetrating the other. And sexuality, emotions, and politics all become "loosened" in cyberspace as well; the intensity of _non_ face-to-face communication can be overwhelming. Any comments would be greatly appreciated! Alan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 04:13:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: "Innovative"/"Experimental" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT it might be late at night but it seems to me that part of the point here is that all poetry is experimental in practice unless one is trying to follow directions. I think the analogy to making a souffle is apt. two other fields I have some familiarity with also contain analogies. I've absorbed a lot of information on how to help patients but each individual encounter is an experiment in how and when I should say to encourage such and such experimental behavior on the patient's part that might help. An innovation here might require some forethought, though, as I could be sued in our litiginous world. When it comes to experiment in experimental psychology there are rules upon rules but a true experiment beyond those conducted as coursework requires at least the hope of some original knowledge. innovation here i think would refer to a change in research methodology. haven't thought this through completely, but I think i recall reading some things Antin wrote on these issues? tom bell ----- Original Message ----- From: "charles alexander" To: Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 5:56 PM Subject: Re: "Innovative"/"Experimental" > Damian, > > As you explain it, I'll take "experimental" any day. Yet in my experience, > and admittedly a lot of it has been living outside places where the > "experimental" thrived, I've been among many who used "experimental" as a > kind of derogatory displacing gesture. Yet I have to admit, I'd rather be > dissed by those who had such opinions about "experimental" poetry, than to > be accepted by them. > > So I'm happy to have "experimental" take the day, but I don't have a > particular problem with Sloan and others using "innovative." > > charles ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 22:56:00 -0700 Reply-To: Lanny Quarles Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lanny Quarles Subject: Ventra Quenada: Comments: To: VentraQuenada@lettercouch.com Comments: cc: WRYTING-L@listserv.utoronto.ca, xtant@cstone.net, list@rhizome.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ventra Quenada: Letter-Couches, a whole ocean of them, bobbing = stupidly... =20 after jumping from letter-couch to letter-couch in that vast = alphabet-couch stew-sea Torreadoor, Bocky, and Lady Chula with her vaginal bat-imps lay down to = watch=20 the corn grow.=20 The world is a serious place said Torreadoor.. I would much rather live = in lost anchorite fictions packed in infinite gauze stacked discretely among the descriptions of cat-play.=20 Purple rays of light play across Lady Chula's face from her gilled = breast bodice.. growling bat-imps rustle under her blunderbuss dress = flanges I cant see what the use is of any of it.. What Real use? Simply to say = it exists and it is important belies a whole strata of interpretation which constatly beseeches me with rows of solid silver ram's heads, = blood fountains, where continents of chlorophyll house the vampire = snail-nymphs in vibrating square gelatin chalices, giant mechanical ticks run by = tribes of miniature blue boys.. Bocky is suffering say Bocky saying Bocky is suffering say. All the = world is suffering. Time-Food. All time food. feeding for saints of = electron industry. Fixing sins in the chaotic horse. Yor nose twitches. Bocky sails into = graveyards. Why the Real. Why live there at all. Its very unpleasant. = completely unpleasant in fact. Bocky say language a fiction, hence reality a = fiction, hence death a fiction, life a fiction, etc etc etc.. you see, = Bocky crazy now. The Real is even more unreal than the Real says Torreadoor. It cannot be = mapped accuratley, predicted with conviction, believed in entirety, = understood in its infinite complexity, The Real is more Un real than Real, We = sleep. That we have no control over. Just like you have a nose. Or poor = eyesight. One day you step off the train in Istanbul and you see the fairy fathers = breathing vermin into the lord's tower, great balloons full of rightless = animals, they are just air to fuel the sails of journalism.. The great agencies = of culture are the only living things, we are snailmeat hor douvres for = the lubrication of the timeplates. The letter couches bob on the open sea.. Bocky is using hooks and fibers = to string the couches together.. see how we can make an island a road = from these floating letters.. how endless this sea of soft and safe = letters.. letters have no opinions, their forms are morphology only with = not relation except to line volume mass circumference, but when they are linked together become states, islands, = roads, trajectories, politicisms, garbage fallen from the grace of = geometry, the turds of angels.. Geometry is God says Lady Chula, Words are shit, says Bocky.. Torreadoor = watches the corn grow among the 23 moons which pass thru the giant glass = toroid castle where Ivory robots shave their loin horns with jagged steel clams... ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 02:04:50 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: I like to think MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >The most interesting question for me is why so many "like to think" what they think. >Bill Why do you like that question? I have to admit I don't like asking you this, well, maybe not at least as much as I might, had I liked it more. Heh. P ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 00:48:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Mr. B In-Reply-To: <001e01c27be4$36a46aa0$5d96ccd1@CeceliaBelle> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >I didnt ~prefer~your shirts, Geo. They were all that were left for me to >wear,in that indifferent climate,and where fashion counts for nowt, after >you had micturated on my own. I sccepted your apology the next morning. Why >do you go on and on about this unseemly incident? It couldnnt be that you >are protecting someone--name of Rachel, perhaps? Bromms Okay, okay. But I will tell you one thing, Broomstick. She looks a lot better in your shirt than you ever did. And she knows more about Husserl and his feelings about Heiddegar. -- George Bowering Free of sin. Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 22:41:59 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: group thot? Long Live Iraq! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hilton. I agree: but you can see that zionism or any kind of nationalism can lead to racism...Hitler in fact talked (in effect) of a "chosen people" (the aryans (who were in fact people who originated in Iran (hence the name as you no doubt know) and around there...he was wrong but in those days it was common for people to be easily and fanatically "patriotic" this starting as a good thing: a good pride in one's culture history etc can be distorted by events and people and in fact competition intra class...between various members of a class or classes competing for jobs etc and so on into racism: it is insidious and racism of some sort is probably a potential in us all. But I agree that say about 40% of the US oppose war (hence the CIA are desperately letting bombs off everywhere - including Bali and the ships etc - to generate an atmosphere of fear and mistrust)..and there are the "patriot" and anti-terrorist laws: Harry is probably like a lot of people subjected to the constant distortions of the Western news media including CNN and the BBC...in fact I think that they spread lies and many in the news media turn a blind eye: the temptation in an atmosphere of terror (ie in NZ and the US etc where the boss-class terrorise their workers by threatening their jobs if they speak out) is to turn away especially if big money is earned (or alternatively starvation is a prospect) ...in NZ even presenters get money like NZ$100,000 a year more or less - often more: I suspect that, with a few exceptions, thousands of journalists, politicians, police, academics, social workers, secret service people, technitians, engineers, executives, and others are not only supporting the situation of the Republican Govt (and the Democrats arent much better they support the ruling class, the owners of the means of production) (and also I believe my own Govt is corrupt - I dont understand why a supposed "liberal" immediatley committed the New Zealond SAS to Afghanistan, where they still are (one had his foot blown off by a land mine the other day) without consulting the people here ...and Clark here does nothing for the poor people where the city south of Auckland (like New Jersey or Brooklyn to NY/Manhatten) is one of he poorest in the world ..and even in my own suburb here is a local paper headline: "A call has gone out for public sponsorship of poorer Auckland children, similar to schemes for third world countries"..and then there is "New Zealanders are being taken advantage if by employers and working longer hours than ever, says the New Zealand council of Trade Unions"...now the editor is a character who exposed the corruption of the police in planting evidence in one of NZ's famous murder cases (they planted a bullet at the scene of the crime to convict Arthur Allen Thomas (who was lated found innocent and pardoned)) and now days murders and the crime rate here is so high no one takes much notice: we have near a higher violence crime rate now because of poverty than eg the US, certainly one of the highest in the so-called "free-world".... so ok he's not in generic class of "corrupt journalists"...but I wonder how long such independent people (and he's only a liberal, and in no way particlularly left, right wing on some issues...)...but these things are the tip of the ice berg...and if you dig into the US and other Western "justice systemns" you'll I suspect find that there are thousands of people who are effectively wrongly imprisoned (Democracy doesnt work for poor people and the homeless etc), or, with a culture less tuned to violence and avarice, and with a more equitable society, may never have gone near a prison. The students who in a "random" investigation faound one person on death row: how many others are there, or in jail because in the US (and NZ etc) they simply cant afford lawyers etc and where in the US the firm of Anderson (who were what Dante might have caled "barraters") simply received a wrist slap? To misquote Stein: the stain is spreading. I dont think that Iraq has any lunatics...the lunatics are all in the West (including NZ)...all the people from Iraq or the Middle East who are Muslim etc are very articulate and peaceful and well informed and I see that they see the US as the main terrorist state in the world, which it is for Chissakes!. If Iraq had deliverable weapons Bush wouldnt even talk of attacking Iraq. There is no reason for a war anywhere. I see Hussein as more rational than Bush. The people support him very much, as I do. The people of the Third World are in for some terrible wars and slaughter before this is all over but ultimately the US and British Imperialist (grovellors) will disintegrate. As Mao tse Tung said: they are paper tigers. Richard Taylor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hilton Obenzinger" To: Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2002 6:08 AM Subject: Re: group thot? > Harry likes to needle, but I have never called him a racist, and I don't at > all mind his defense of Zionism or questioning me or anyone. I do think > that horrible crimes are being committed against Palestinians, that many in > the West, including the media, appear to be blind to these crimes. The > Israeli military attacks schools and hospitals in Gaza, settlers terrorize > Palestinian villagers, forcing them to flee, preventing olive harvests, or > all you have to do is observe the swimming pools and lush lawns in > settlements alongside parched Palestinian farmland to understand the vastly > discriminatory nature of colonialism. The horrors of a suicide bomber will > obscure those crimes, but they persist. It's pretty clear, but as > Wolfowitz and Rumsfeld would put it, if you look through the right lens, > you will see what you want to see. Actually, I think many if not most > Americans are far more aware and sympathetic than the media allows -- and > they are not at all interested in attacking Iraq, despite their legitimate > fears of lunatic violence directed at us. Let us pray. > > Hilton > > At 02:43 PM 10/25/2002 +1300, you wrote: > >Hilton. I like Harry but he is obsessed with this: the quote from Twain is > >apt. Harry is actually coming from a racist perspective ...he simply cant > >see it... cant see that in fact that zionism is racist: its implications > >are that the Jews are superior to the Arabs ... > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > Hilton Obenzinger, PhD. > Associate Director of Undergraduate Research Programs for Honors Writing > Lecturer, Department of English > Stanford University > 650.723.0330 > 650.724.5400 Fax > obenzinger@stanford.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 05:07:15 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: PENULTIMATE DYNAMIC INTERPLAY #0018 by CELIA CURTIS Comments: To: 7-11@mail.ljudmila.org, ImitationPoetics@listserv.unc.edu, o-o@konf.lt, webartery@yahoogroups.com, syndicate@anart.no, _arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au, owner-realpoetik@scn.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PENULTIMATE DYNAMIC INTERPLAY #0018 by CELIA CURTIS www.wired-paris-review.com RESPECTED DEJECTION => WASHINGTON => WAVES => FOR VEHICLE => WAITING => THE OF SO PRIVATE => SKIP => SPOON => HAS RETURNED AND YOU HAVE THE CREEPY => CUP => WITH ALL THAT IS NEEDFUL AND HAVE BEEN EXPLAINING WHAT AT MANOEUVRE => FILLED US WITH ROOTS => SUGARS => THAT IN CARDS => COUP => I ASK YOUR CARDS => TIDINGS => FOR SERIOUS => CONCEALED FROM THAT ADDED TO THE GLORIOUS => BY THE KNIGHTS AT THEIR NOMINATION BY YOUR PIGS => PIG|STYES => HERE LIT GREY => HUNT => BY THE FLAMES AS STEM => STINGY => AS AT NOONTIDE EXCEPTIONAL => THE AFRICA => ALIENATE => COULD NOT DEEP => DOGFISH => YOU RALPH THE ENGAGEMENTDIAMONDBEL => OF UNWELL => UPON|LIE => NOT TO ME QUIETLY => RABBLE => OUT THE CURRENT => CYCLES => BEFORE NOVEMBER => HENRY => AND WE PAGE => PAGES => THERE AT HEAVING => DISGUST => THE CARDS => COUP => PREPARATIONS WERE THE DISPLEASURE => BY THE AND OVER TO THE PLEASED => TANTRUM => CLIMAX => GLORY => OF THE OBSCENITY => THEY SPAGHETTI => SPIKE => AND AS AS YOU HAVE THIS EMBARK SUCCEEDED IN GAINING THEIR THE AND FLED TO THEIR A GROIN => OF MISSILES AND KILLER => KINKY => BECOMING => CHARGE => SHE RAN MANUFACTURER => THE BITCH => UGH => AND AFTER THE KNIGHTS HAVE BUT THIS IS DILATION => NOSE => AS YOU THE BRANDISHUNDULATESINE => AT OTTER => OVEN => AGREED UPON AND WE LOUNGE => MATTRESS => A BEY AND PASHA DELIGHTFUL => IF HE BE OESOPHAGEAL|TRACK => THAT SPOKE THE IT WOULD ME SHOULD COULD DEFY THE YTIDINGSAN => OF AN TO CROSS AND NAPPINGGRABBED => THE HAS DIFFERENCE => HE HAS A OF THEM ON POLISH => TEAS => => OF THEM ROGER JERVIS TREACLE => IS ENOUGH AND KEEPS US UNREST|INSTANCE => AND IN WHEN WE ARE ON BE TO MY EPILEPSY => FEELING => OF THE FIGHTING BUT I MANOR => MEDICAL => EXCLAMATIONS OF ROOTS => SUGARS => BROKE FROM BEN IBYN HIS AND DAUGHTERS TONIGHT THAT IF I HAVE OBJECTS => STARVED => OF AVARICE => AWE => DOLLY => I BE TO FOR THE AGROUND => HOIST => AWFULAWEFULHORRIFIC => GERVAISE HAS BEEN AN ANCHORITE HE HAS THE AUBERGE THEY HAD BEEN CONVEYED FROM THE DOLLY => AND BE CONDITIONING => UPON MY SHOULDERS NAPPINGGRABBED => I GROUPS => IDEALISM => IT BUT FALSEHOOD => AND IT IS INTOLERABLE THAT POLISH => TEAS => => TREACLE => HAS BEEN BUT RESTING => SATE => WHEN AS DUODENAL => POLISH => TEAS => => ESSENTIALS => THE POSITION OF THE SERVITORS IS IN DUODENAL => TO THE THE SO CARRIED WERE PILED GREY => HUNT => THE THAT WE COULD NOT BE CONDITIONING => BY ROOTS => SUGARS => AND MIGHT QUIETLY => RABBLE => A THERE IS RELEASED => RIGOUR => IN WHAT HE MY PRIVATE => OF THE SLAVES THOUGH HE WOULD HAVE DISTURB => OUT WHATEVER HE WAS RALPH THERE WOULD BE NO VILLAGES AT WHICH TO QUIETLY => RABBLE => INQUIRIES AND ARRANGED FROM THE ANDREWS => OF KNIGHTS IN THE CONVENT COULD NOT HAVE HE TO RHODES BUT IS A FROM POLISH => TEAS => => OF THE ISLANDS IN OF THE CLIMAX => GLORY => WALLS THEY ARE BUT GRASS => HEARD => INCHES ACROSS AND COWHERD => CRINGE => NAPPINGGRABBED => HE WOULD NOT BE SO THAT THE DULLEST WOULD SLEEPY => SPUDS => IT THAT IS AWFULAWEFULHORRIFIC => LOUIS EXCLAIMED AS ON TURNING THEY APATHY => CO => THAT CANNOT SAY AWFULAWEFULHORRIFIC => JOHN HE BE TRYING TO GET AN GRIM => GROWL => OF TO THE PRIZES TO RHODES UNDERLYING ALL THE ARGUMENTS RAVAGING THE COASTS OF EQUAL => ETHICS => WE FELL IN WITH AND DECISIONS => LINE => THIS TO SCRIPTURE => THAT AS YOU HAS CAUSED TEMPTATIONS => TREAT => OUR HEADS IT IS FROM NO OF FOR THE BUT IT IS AN UPON THE AND WOULD SAY SO TO THE HOW THEY WORKING => WORKS => THERE YOU SEE THE FLASHING IN THE HONEST => HOPE => GERVAISE WAS STRUCK BY THE IN WHICH OF THEM NONEXISTENT => WITHOUT HE IS BUT COMPANIONSHIP => WITH SCARCE POLISH => TEAS => => WOULD GROUPS => IDEALISM => BURN => TO WITH HIM MULEY HE LOT => MAJORITY => ON WHEN THE RIPPLE => SPEED => APPEARED HAVE YOU IN THE THE SAILS OF THE GALLEY COULD BE ON THE THE WAYS OF THE ALL SEEING ARE PRESENCES => THE IN ARMS AND FOR BURN => AND SPLEASUREFLINCH => IN ALL EXERCISES HE SEEMS TO IT WITHOUT PURSUING THEIR IT WAS BARNACLE => SIPHON => THAT THEY WOULD NOT HAVE WITH THE CARVING => CASES => I DO NOT SAY THAT THE ENGAGEMENTDIAMONDBEL => IS GREAT IT WERE BE FOR YOUR OR THAT OF THE FOR SO NOSTRILS => ROSES => A TO BE THE CENTRE|BASIS => OF ESPECIALLY => EXAMS => TO CAVERNS CAVES|CAVES => THAN TO HIS LEANING => AND STRICTLY BOYLE => COMRADES US IN THE MANOEUVRE => FOOD WE HAVE NOT SERIOUSLY THREATENED UNLESS GRIM => GROWL => OF THIS WHISTLE|KETTLES => ON THE FACES OF THE OUR OPPRESSOR => AND NAPPINGGRABBED => TO THE KNIGHTS IT SEEMS THAT WE DISTURB => QUIETEN => DEPTH => I WAS THERE BUT GRASS => HEARD => POOR => POOR => AND THEN STARTED WAS CHARCOAL ON ASSOCIATE => AT => AND A SERVED AS MUSCLES => IN THE HE STOPPED AT OBLIGATIONS => THE ORGAN => WERE BREAKING UPON THE HIS NEXT => THAT YOU ARE COLONIES => OF THE BESTOWAL OF GAGE BY A CARRIED REPLAY => SECOND => --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.404 / Virus Database: 228 - Release Date: 10/15/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 09:47:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: minnesota In-Reply-To: <004201c27cb4$5e96e4e0$5ba05e82@hevanet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" v sad got back from glorious visit to maine, saw Blaser/Creeley, Friedlander/Billiteri (sp?), Evans/Moxley, Pollet/Marjo, beautiful drive up and back, and then 17 msgs on the voice mail, one about paul wellstone. checking email, learn that another person in the tiny plane was the husband of our department's accountant, one of wellstone's top aides. the first american casualties in the us war for oil, iraqi branch. v v sad, but hoping it'll ignite and inspire the antiwar movement... -- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 10:25:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: Virginia and the Rest Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Who, then, if she called out, would hear Virginia among the angels' ranks? And even though one of them might pounce her to his breast, Virginia would surely be submerged, drenched, & quenched: much monstrousness abuts through beauty's view - and the supernatural is feared because we fear its reasons for not joining in on nature's killing spree. So raise your finger to your lips, Virginia, you will not call out beyond this classical pose. Son of a bitch! - Who else can you run to when you most need to cry out? Neither angel nor actuality, only a classical precedent that lies between. Even the dumbest mutt know we don't quite fit in this mediated world. MAYBE there is some face, even in a snapshot, that we can turn to for solace - or take comfort in the supposition that, as plants produce oxygen for us, perhaps our despair gives life to the creatures around us. Yes, maybe the Spring needs you. Maybe you bring breath and smiles to the farthest star. A wave washes toward you for the same reason a flower turns toward the sun. But how can you WILL it, Virginia? Isn't this what you want? Don't you live for premeditated acts, and schemes? _________________________________________________________________ Choose an Internet access plan right for you -- try MSN! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 08:35:44 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: testing: Anningan Comments: cc: cyberculture , software and culture , rhizome MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii http://www.lewislacook.com/Anningan/AnningansDoor.html Anningan Flash 6 Speakers On Anningan is a hypertext chat-bot, still in progress, still evolving; it explores the economies of presence and absence, obsession and affection, relation and distance, voyeurism and hatred, sex and death and love and madness... This is a test version, still progressing...there are approcimately fifty small paragraphs of text to be read, and over twenty pages of code controlling the piece...each visit to Anningan is different; what you read depends on how you respond... Please tell me how this is received...I've been working very hard on this piece for the last two months, and though it's incomplete it's in a state in which it can be shared and hopefully discussed. I need input to determine how the piece is working for others. bliss l http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html meditation, net art, poeisis: blog http://lewislacook.blogspot.com/ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 08:43:20 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: New Hairdo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html new song on mp3.com http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html meditation, net art, poeisis: blog http://lewislacook.blogspot.com/ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 10:07:22 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: "Innovative"/"Experimental" In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" aw c'mon robert, the eagles ain't shit!... they might not be the "band of the 70s" or whatever it was ~rolling stone~ said about them way back, but their sound (and for my money, lyrics) really hooked the moment... it seems to me that what you're addressing is important, though, and has to do with the status and valence of pop culture today... and what i'm wondering about more and more these days (esp. in the wake of something like npr's recent series on music recording technologies, which ends with this notion of "the revenge of the amateurs") is how the shift being brought about by d-i-y techne is/is not to be correlated with the economic shift of the past three decades... here i have in mind something like paul krugman's piece in ~the new your times mag~ this past sunday ("for richer") which details the rise and fall of the middle class... thank the lord someone has finally come out in mainstream media to challenge these halfwitted arguments we keep hearing e.g. about how high ceo salaries provide overarching economic incentive---and thank the lord it's someone who has the economic chops to make such an argument stick... but in any case krugman suggests that, since the 70s, so much more wealth has been concentrated in the upper 1% of income earners that this 1% pretty much calls the mainstream's political and even intellectual strings... (it works out to something like this: 13,000 households, if that's what they are, now earn about as much money as the poorest 20,000,000 households... staggering, really... and krugman's point is that this was not not not the case 30 years ago...) now here's why i bring this up: i'm on a campus at present where (as i've finally been able to ascertain based on admission profiles provided to me by members of our student govt---which is, from what i'm told, the largest student gov in the u.s.) we have somewhere between 41% and 55% of our undergrad student body hailing from families that make more than $250,000/year (and btw, this latter constitutes ~ the top 1% today)... further, roughly 1/3 of our undergrads come from families with liquid assets such that their parents can write a check for $100,000 or more... this is, i'm sure you'll agree, mindboggling, esp. on a state campus with in-state tuition running at ~$2500/yr, and out-of-state tuition running at ~$18,000/yr (class warfare? you bet!)... true, we are a major research institution, but cu has nowhere near the clout/rep of ~us news~ "top 50" universities (of which we is not one)... where you can expect to find a student body with e.g. even more disposable income... now out of the 38 students i'm currently teaching, not one seemed to think s/he hailed from such a family... clearly these folks don't know what their parents have in their savings accounts---and probably don't understand that the 5 bdrm/3 bath/2500 sq ft + house they were raised in signifies a certain amount of wealth, plain and simple... these are also the folks who are busy swapping mp3 files (many have recommended to me that i give a listen to fugazi, which given your nod, robert, i feel obliged now to do), and burning cds (some have kindly done this for me)... many of these folks in my classes are hardly outwardly materialistic---i mean, i'm teaching almost exclusively *english majors* these days (some will say only the wealthy can even BE english majors---which, while not true, is certainly ringing truer & truer at the phd level)... so in essence, these folks constitute the consumer body (future, if not once) that fugazi and similarly shoestring (if this is the right word) bands can hope to generate a following in... is this the pop effect of, oh, 1975?... hardly!... we all went out and picked up the latest lp (in our case it would have been eagles, david live, what have you), imagining ourselves---whether as working or middleclass proper (which distinctions krugman unfortunately doesn't quite detail in his piece, even as he reduces this latter economic disparity c. 1970)---rather bonding "through" the sound/lyrical entity in our midst... social cohesion?---perhaps... but surely not of the individuated variety... i mean, Big (klipsch) Loudspeakers where *in*---there's that communal effect again, cutting across class distinctions, however hallucinatory that cutting across may have been... this hallucination, if you will, amounts to a shared social belief---and in point of fact, one of the more amazing turns in krugman's piece is his argument AGAINST former economic models of ceo-amplification and middleclass woe... i.e., he argues for a concept of *social norms* to explain why indeed it took 35 years (after wwii) for executive salaries to increase exponentially, and workers to start trailing exponentially... e.g., in krugman's analysis, *executive culture* was less greedy, more ethically bound in 1965... (i think this argument too can stand some drawing out, but what a refreshing change it is from the globalization/technology arguments we've been bombarded with for decades now... e.g., u.s. workers couldn't compete with overseas labor yadda yadda yadda)... now: if such an argument can hold sway in economic discussions of the top 1% and how they got there, i think we need to start thinking perhaps about the ways in which pop culture is deforming (balkanizing?) to match this current (yes, nomadic, mobile) state of consumer affairs (i'm all for amateurs, but sometimes a great notion, methinks)... our responses as poets/writers probably need to be examined in this light as well, assuming we respond in any sense to pop culture (and btw, we just saw ~L.I.E.~ last night---great flick)... i assume most of us, dana gioia aside, are not in the top 1%, but i rather suspect more of us are in this percentile than we're letting on... well, all too hasty suturing, as always, and half-baked perhaps, but surely having something to do with the question of the "innovative"... and i think y'all can understand why i *still* like the eagles, yeah? (ha)... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 13:26:50 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: poem Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Saint of Patrons If you can Move to the mad Code and perform "the assassin" a new favorite dare You can quash All resistance and sip from oceans We're driving on Expired licenses to kill, headed for False Positives There are stiff burdens To be shouldered and rich folk to Mock Keep Up and flourish amid shaky paradox, stay for the eggs or Presume to find pleasures in Languages What doesn't jive? The numbers don't Always lie I cringe at the lack of Rewind I'm dirty as Hell A white sheep Among bleach blondes Unrecoverable vacancies of luck, which explains why I'm so Enamored of the St. life We're busy arguing Spermicides with our eyes on the door Things I am thankful for: colorblindness every selfish emotion, the Axe This year was my Therapist's treat, written off by Taxidermists Smother me again in sleep, together forever with pushers of the Blue in the very last smoky Corners _________________________________________________________________ Unlimited Internet access for only $21.95/month. Try MSN! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/2monthsfree.asp ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 13:28:02 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: poem Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Giving People the Finger All the Time Displace and forget, Honey, how once Cherished Never getting wet enough to go in Easily It's too late for a coup de tat but *thx* for Asking Kissless evening and vacations Spent hooded, dive bar to point of crash Front row while youngsters Make out The poet, transfixed with the same old motions, considers blow jobs chased by guilt Make more adorable faces in places with mirrors It's wild to forever Be hungover which puts the funeral in fun We're making Friends after the vomit and panicking give the old monks a Call for the hell of it Possess your own nagging nostalgias But think of me past military bases or on the faces of each surrendered soldier worldwide The green standard issue An envy of Sorts, earned Or thrust upon like the wasted life _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 14:02:03 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: Glory of the Bomb Calf Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed this awful fresh air covering her hand already familiar though fleet & troublesome JHX, who innocently wanted to make V. sleep, drowns beneath China trees chatterboxes are as bad as Scriptures barebacked gratification when it comes stays clear of what gives to rhetoric the rest of us insight THOSE OUT OF BREATH ARE ASSIGNED TO THE STARS (the next part is going public as if by magic) "Whether moral or manner, no one has a two-way exchange" Mexico sums it up as self- a n nihil- ation _______________________________________________________________________ http://blazevox.da.ru APOLLO'S BASTARDS e-book at the E-book Inventory _________________________________________________________________ Get faster connections -- switch to MSN Internet Access! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 13:10:48 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Virginia and the Rest In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > Who, then, if she called out, would hear Virginia among the angels' >ranks? I thought there was a rule against Rilke on this list. -- George Bowering Free of sin. Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 21:34:33 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lakey Teasdale Subject: Virginia and the Rest-less MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Virginia and the Rest-less Well you may ask, when she whistled, thumb and forefinger between lips, why bother to call out with a shriek like that and the angels among them. Forget it. More on the head of a pin not counting the heads, but let's not digress or start counting backwards. As for he: son of a bitch doesn't begin to describe him, the shite in wining armour something between a shill and a proposition, no etiquette whatsoever, third street proposition, no strategy for even if you can imagine Seven Card Stud. His ass is, as they say grass, and and more to the point and/or equally - deny as you might - his dick is just dirt. But whisper it not and even randy little duchesses have lured him to their arms but when that third heart hits the board and there's a lot of action then somewhere, someone, Virginia, has made the flush so don't run out of chips on your classical shoulders. And the son of Nun or no one - geddit - went out of Shittim which abbreviated. Oh! It's enough to cripple the deck, rest assured. Take comfort in the supposition? Takes comfort in the proposition and takes comfort not in such radiant benediction that his chances of sucking out on the opposition in hold-em until Abyssinia are zilch. Could be, perhaps maybe, Spring needs her like a loch in kop and don't waste her time with smiling at stars, sunshine, me redt zich oys dos hartz and don't waste it either with flowers-schmowers and personal questions regarding premeditated acts. There are places to go and glaciers to melt and waves washing towards her in her fur - nisht fur dich degacht. Na! She wills what she wants. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 14:23:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: I'm melllting In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v546) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm melllting it=92s that crack jacker in the box affect. virtual potluck polemics -=20= with edgy lost-leader come-ons, jack pots and pit bulls. candle light=20 vigils light the way that is the way, that used to be the way while it=20= was a has been, miss placed in another state, country, now forgotten,=20 lost, to late to continue. a call home - the receiver drops in the=20 floor in cameral coated police reports, first killed, mid-battle, last=20= to know, a broken arrow. virgil replies: sorry to tell you, we didn't=20 know you didn't know, it goes back further than that. what's behind=20 door number one or the curtain of fire - a spiral bound note book. a=20 dictionary of hate. some one is at the steering wheel saying: =93 I am=20= oz, the great and powerful, oz.=94=20= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 14:56:17 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: minnesota In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT A huge (over 50,000 people) - it's still going on - anti-war demo in San Francisco today - tangent with the other many large ones radiating across the country, (over 100,000 in Washington, D.C). Locally there are many tributes - including signs - mourning the loss of Paul Wellstone. A huge sadness here. Nightmares have become responsibilities. Stephen Vincent on 10/26/02 7:47 AM, Maria Damon at damon001@UMN.EDU wrote: > v sad got back from glorious visit to maine, saw Blaser/Creeley, > Friedlander/Billiteri (sp?), Evans/Moxley, Pollet/Marjo, beautiful > drive up and back, and then 17 msgs on the voice mail, one about paul > wellstone. checking email, learn that another person in the tiny > plane was the husband of our department's accountant, one of > wellstone's top aides. the first american casualties in the us war > for oil, iraqi branch. v v sad, but hoping it'll ignite and inspire > the antiwar movement... > -- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 17:20:28 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K. Silem Mohammad" Subject: FW: Kit Robinson in SF Nov. 20 Comments: To: subpoetics-l@hawaii.edu In-Reply-To: <14c.167baa15.2aec734f@cs.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Atelos has lost most of its email addresses and its mailing list due to the crash of our desktop computer. Any of you who could forward this message for us, please do so. The message is this: Atelos and The Lab invite you to a reading celebrating the publication of THE CRAVE, by Kit Robinson. There will be a reception in honor of Kit afterward. The event will take place at 8 pm on Wednesday, November 20 at The Lab (2948 16th Street in San Francisco). $5 - $10 (sliding scale). We will hope to see you there. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 14:46:01 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: group thot? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill. Its probably ultimtely a class question, but of course, its who and what one reads, one's own personality: degree of political "nous" and so on. people we know for example become strongly religious because their parents were: others reject religion for the same reason. Most people are influenced by their parents ..but there are many other influences. John Geraets in the ..can I call it "innovative" NZ mag?.... has recently explained his aesthetics: interesting as that "explantion is" one suspects that Geraets likes being "in aporia" and moving with the moment's ever expanding bubble... (and some of my own writing moves in directions loosely of a similar kind of philosophic: if not being anything like Geraets's work in texture)...and in fact about 1994 I "liked to think" that I didnt need to think about politics, and to some extent it was my "discovery" of the Language Poets that "incited" or excited me to look at the politico-social aspects of language practice, and perhaps that is ironic or paradoxical ...or to at least become aware of the link so to speak...but around that time I was more attracted to what I suppose was or could have become a sort of elitist aesthetic: the poetry that most interested me (and a lot of it still does) was not predicated on any presuppositions, and required poets to be extremly well read if not PhDs (or at least very interested in poetics etc) - I was interested in the innovation and experimentation and the "crazy stuff" for "individualist" political reasons I suppose. I had done some political satrical work and some vaguely Ashberic stuff but was wanting to move toward a "higher" poetic/poetry......and at that time I contributed to a small mag called Salt (NZ) which Scott Hamilton and Hamish Dewe published... and at that time (about 1994) one of Scott's tenets was that they were having "no political correctness"....I was attracted to this semi-anarchistic approach ...but at various times in my life, "life" such as the fact that I have three children, and now a grand child, impinges on my work...and even here there is no escaping the effects that S11- more Life - Lfe of Dream? - or Trauma? - had on us here even in NZ (where we all of course have televisions) so if it was a CIA stunt it was pretty spectacular and effective one: my initial reaction Bill was in fact very pro a kind of Bush one as some strange events had preceded it....I had met an Iraqi the day or so before (who was actually Babylonian) ...then I had my friend who is (he disagrees quite strongly by the way with me we've had some real crazy arguments, he thinking that the Muslim extremists are the bad guys and so on) but in a library I had met an older American women and somewhow the question of refugees (maybe I mentioned the fact that I had actually met a Babylonian and thought she'd be interested in that) coming here was raised: she raised the "terrorist" spectre, calling (people in the Middle East ) "hot blooded, then I had some strong words about recent US history, then she: "So you're anti,eh?" and so on. But then my friend suggested that someof the people coming here could be potential terroists...now, nowadays I think that that is possible but not important: and a day or so after those encounters "whammo!" I wake up to a phone call from my son wanting me to turn the TVon and there it is: towers bursting in the violet air and the whole thing surreal and strange and then I sent an email wanting to wipe out all the Arabs...but I changed my position...I started to think more calmly and I became "suspicioned" of Bush and the BBC and so on. Charles Bernstein did those quite excellent "reports", and I did a lot of probably a bit crazy "raving"...so the whole fireworks display of S11 has polarised and politicised or re-politicised people throughout the world.....and as you imply, where one stands is often what one likes to think for various complex reasons. Regards, Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2002 3:31 AM Subject: Re: group thot? > In a message dated 10/25/02 2:27:28 AM, richard.tylr@XTRA.CO.NZ writes: > > << after all it could be true: Bush (and company) could be > > right...but I like to think that the Bush's of this world (not the burning > > bushes) create the "terroism" >> > > And there you have it, folks. Bush might be right or wrong. The > pontificating aside, that's all we know. The most interesting question for > me is why so many "like to think" what they think. Thanks Richard. Best, > Bill > > WilliamJamesAustin.com > KojaPress.com > Amazon.com > BarnesandNoble.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 02:25:06 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: innovativeexperimentalpoeticsorickypoem MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT GoTo Pogo.......[1.] Slowly Or Return? [1] This is a reference to Walt Kelly's and not the epoetic animations flowering through software or is it a reference to Pozo or you can fill in the blanks _ala _Comment c'est or your browser if you are in a carnival mood and find "The incoercible absense of relation, in the absence of terms or, if you like, in the presence of unavailable terms" which may or may not be present in the version of "Three Dialogues" available from your library. Hesitations and reversals could be a version of "carnivalized dialogization" - "carnivalizing laughter is internally dialogized...the mockery is thus not simply that of a satirist or ironist who assumes a position of authority vis-a-vis his object - all participants are subject to it, including the author himself (Henning, S., _Beckett's Critical Complicity, Uinv. Press of KY, 1988) and thus could include me as writer of this note or you as reader who may just be reluctant to assent to go to Pago Pago. tom bell &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&cetera: Poetry at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/publicat.html Gallery - Metaphor/Metonym for Health at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/metaphor/metapho.htm Health articles at http://psychology.healingwell.com/ Reviews at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/reviews.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 21:57:11 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dcmb Subject: Re: Mr. B MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What a pretty picture....the female instructor, wearing only a handsome man's shirt, teaching 20th Century philosophy to the eager Bowering, who sprawls at her feet, looking intently up. But it is clearly a fantasy. The woman in question would not spell the German philosopher's name the way you,o Corrector of Spelling, spell it. If you are without sin, as you claim, you are not without error. And Rachel is not without honor. DB -----Original Message----- From: George Bowering To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Saturday, October 26, 2002 12:51 AM Subject: Re: Mr. B >>I didnt ~prefer~your shirts, Geo. They were all that were left for me to >>wear,in that indifferent climate,and where fashion counts for nowt, after >>you had micturated on my own. I sccepted your apology the next morning. Why >>do you go on and on about this unseemly incident? It couldnnt be that you >>are protecting someone--name of Rachel, perhaps? Bromms > >Okay, okay. But I will tell you one thing, Broomstick. She looks a >lot better in your shirt than you ever did. And she knows more about >Husserl and his feelings about Heiddegar. >-- >George Bowering >Free of sin. >Fax 604-266-9000 > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 22:13:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dcmb Subject: Re: minnesota MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We can only hope so, Maria. Hold fast to the memories of your visit to Maine, meanwhile. Evil doesn't always win. Who will ever forget "I am -not- a crook..."? Yours, David -----Original Message----- From: Maria Damon To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Saturday, October 26, 2002 6:50 AM Subject: minnesota >v sad got back from glorious visit to maine, saw Blaser/Creeley, >Friedlander/Billiteri (sp?), Evans/Moxley, Pollet/Marjo, beautiful >drive up and back, and then 17 msgs on the voice mail, one about paul >wellstone. checking email, learn that another person in the tiny >plane was the husband of our department's accountant, one of >wellstone's top aides. the first american casualties in the us war >for oil, iraqi branch. v v sad, but hoping it'll ignite and inspire >the antiwar movement... >-- > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 01:11:45 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: GUARDIAN DEL SOL V E H U I A H #0003 Comments: To: 7-11@mail.ljudmila.org, ImitationPoetics@listserv.unc.edu, o-o@konf.lt, webartery@yahoogroups.com, syndicate@anart.no, _arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au, owner-realpoetik@scn.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit V E H U I A H is the first name of God and means Exalted. The Tetragrammaton [YHVH] is the four-letter divine name which God revealed to Moses (EXODUS 6:2). It is composed of four hebrew letters: Yud, Hey, Vav and Hai. According to the judaic mathematical/mystical science of gematria, the tetragrammaton, when spelled out as one word, yields the numerological equivalent of seventy-two: Yud+vav+dalet=20, Hai+yud=15, Vav(vav+yud+vav)=22, and Hai(hai+yud)=15. this new project by the worldwide literati mobilization network, conceived by emile vincent, comprises the multiplicative rearrangement of each of the 72 divine names there are 1,000 volumes for each name the cover artwork for each volume are screen captures of the Old Testament in hebrew, also known as the Five Books of Moses. multiplicative textstreaming by emile vincent V E H U I A H #0003 (excerpt) www.guardian-del-sol.com v h h u a i u i h i h u h u i i h h i i h v u i i h i v u h i v h u i a h v u u i h a h i h v e h i e u v i h u h i e h h h u u i h u h a u v h a h i u u a u h i v h a i h v v h h i h h i i h h h u a a v h i v h h i i h u i v h v a i v a a u i i h u i h u e a v h u h i h h a i e v h h h a a v i h u h h h i i h h h u u u h u i e v u u i u v u h h i v v i u h a u u h i h u e h a i a u v h a i v h h u a u h i i v a h u i h a h h v u h i u a h h u h i i h a h i i u i v u u u i u h u h h i h v u h i h u i v h i v u a i u u i u h u e i i h u h h i h h v h i i v h i u h i v u h a i u h i i h h i i v h u v h a i i h a a i h v a u i h u h u h h h i h u v u u i h u u i u a u i v u u i v u h i i v h e h i h u u i h u u h a u i u i u i h h a a i h u i u h i v a u h i h u v h v u h i a u i v h a i h u u h i u u h u a u i i u u i u i h v i i u h u a i u i v v i h i i h u i v h h h u u i v h u i h i h u v u i a v u a i u v i v u i h h u i h v i i h a u v i e h u u u h i a h v e a h u h a h v i u i i h h e v h h u v i u i h a h i h u i h u i i v a u h h u u i h u u a u i v a a i i h v a h i e u u a u i h h u i h a h i h v a a i u h u u i i u u u i h u u e h a i v a h i h h v u u h i h a h v a i i u u i i a u h a e u i a h v u u u i a h h h i v h i h h i a u h i h a h i i h u i h u v u h u h a i u i h h h h i v i h v h u i u v h u i i u h u h i v a u v v h h i v h a i e h i u i v h h h u i h u u h h i h u h h a h i i h h a u i u i u h u i e a v e h u h i a a h v h i h v u i v h a i u i h u h v i v e h i v h a i v h v u h u i h u v h v e h i h h a u i e h i i v u u v h a i u v u e v h u u h i h u i h h u h i i h h i i h e i v h u i h a i h i h u e h a u u e a u a e u i h v u i h u e u h h u h i u e u e a i v h a i h h a v u i i h a a h h h i v h u i a v h u a i v h v e h i h u i h u i e a u u i v h a u i v u h e u i h a h i v h h i h u i h u i i i h u i h a u h i u a v e u e i u i v h h h i h u v a e u a h v a a i u e i u a h v a a i v v a h u u h i h h h h u i h h u a e h u h i a h h i u a i u i h a h v a u i i h u i u u u h i u v u u u v a a i i h h i i u h h a i v h u u u u i h a h i u h i u h i u e i h u v h i v h a i i h u i u h v a i h u a h i a h u i h a h v a i h h h u h i h u u v a a u h i i h h i i i h u i h h i h i v h h e h i h e e h a a i i v v i h i h u h u h i h e u i u a i i h h h v a a i a v h u a i u h h a v a a i i h u i v h u h e u i u e a a h h e i h e e e h v h i h u h h e a h e v i v v u e h u i a u h h i v a h a u i i h u e a u u i u i i v u u v h a i h u v u h e u i i h i v u h i h u h h a u v a a i a a v i u i a u v i a a v i u i i v h u i u h e h i v h a u i v h u h u i i h h u i u e h a h i v e h u i h u h u v u h e u i a a v i u i h u a h h h i u i u e v u i v a a i h h a u v a a i u e e u v i u h i h a h v a a i h v u i h u u v i u i v i u i a a h u h i v h i h i i h u h i v u u i h v u h i h u i e h u v a a i i h h i v a i i u h a i i v h u v a i h u h a h i v h a u h i i h a u i h u h v h u h i i h h i i i h u i e h u u h u i i h u i v h u h e u u i i h u i u i h h v u h u h i h u e u i i v a a i v h a i u i v h e u h u i h h v a i a u h h i h v a a u h i h a h i h e i h h v h a i u u u i h e e e h v e h i h u h u e u h h u h i v h h i a v h a i i h u i i h a h i h u i u h i u h i v u i i u h i h h a u i h h a h h a i v h u i h a u i h u i h u i i h a a h u h u i e h a i h v a u h i h h h h u i i h h u u i u i v h u i i h u i v a u v a u u u i i h u i h u u h u h v i i i h u u i a u u h u h i i h h i i h i u h h i h i a h h i v u i v i h i v h a u i u a a h u u i h v i u i h u u u a a i h i e h e h i u h u i i u u i i i u h h i i h h i i h u h i a h v i a a h u i i h a a h i v h h i u e i h h i h v h i h u i h u u v h i u h a h u i h a h i v u e h i u i i u i v u h i h a h i h u e h a u i h a e i u h i u v i u u i h a u i v a v u i i h u h u e i h a a a u h h i v u h e h u i h u u i a v a h i i i h u u u h i i a h a u h i v h a h u h v a a i u u u a i v v i u i h u a h a v u u u u i i v h u i i a v u u i i h i h u u h i i h u u u h i e h u h i i i h h u u i i v h i i h i h u i h u u i h h a a u h u i i h h u i e h a u v h u h u h i i h h u i h h h a u u h i v h u h i v u e h i u i u v h u h i h u v h i e h v a a i v v i u i v u e h i u i u u a i i v h a i u h i i h h u i v h u i i h h i u h i v u h u i u i h u u u h i h u h a h i v u h u i a u u h i v v i h i h h h h v u i i h h i v h h i i h v u v i h i v h a u i h u i v a h a e u h i i h u i h u a u a u h h u i e h h v i u h i e h v h e v h a u i h e e h i i h h h i u i i h h i i u v a h i i i u a i v u h u h a u i h u h v i i u h u a i i e a h h i h u u u h u u h i h a h v a i h i v h h h h u u v a a i v h i u a i i e a i v u h i v h h u u i h u u v i i u u i h a a u u i a u i u i a h h u h i v a v u v e i u u h h a i h u i h h u i e u h i h v a a i e a v e h u h v i h u u h a i i h u i u h i h u h h u i h u h i h u i h h u i a a h u h v u h h i v h v u u i h a a a v a a i u v u u h u i v u u i h u h u a v u i u h a i u u h h u i v v a h h v i e a h i h v a u i h v u a i i u h h i u a i v h u i a u v a h v h h h h h h i h u v v i a u u u i u h h v i i h u i e u a i a h h i a u a a u h i v a h u a i u h i a u v i h v a h i v v v u i i h u i h h v u h i h u u v i a h i v h a u i i h h a i i h u i u v h u h v h h i u i h a h i i h u i h h h h a a u i u a i u i i h u h i h h u h v a a i h u v h a e a u i i i u h v u h u i h u u v u h i e a h h i h u h i i u u i i v a e h u h u v a a i a a i v u h u i h u u h i h u v h h e i v u u h i h v u i v h h i u u u v h a i u u v i i i h h i i u h h u u i h v v i e h u h a h i v h v e h i h u --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.404 / Virus Database: 228 - Release Date: 10/15/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 04:47:27 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: ho yas nac uoy ees In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v546) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ho yas nac uoy ees No matter whether you are -- sayeth The subtext of opinion love song, =20= Senate Hearing on pornography in response to Everything on telephone=20 number quotations, medical proof that the Mormon church is a one=20 shot deal. -- bending over. -- "Porn ignorant=94 begging to be given=20= The whole Universe on some of vowel Society Page in the FUCK out =20 the subtext of What if you can. -- the Universe is the work the big=20= fuss bonus. -- consonants intermarriage. Whole Grain genuinely good=20 idea . -- look down -- you just got caught! Right? See It, Remember=20 it, there's no medical proof that supports a large proportions of=20 Knowledge. The last name that people forget is a few million multiple=20= encounters called fatal design flaws. eat All love songs and social=20= liabilities. fish a big difference between kneeling down so powerful=20 and a fine happy large yellow "J" Tree of exchange. deviant=20 behavior, or Everything is in the vicinity of large recorded =20 happenings 'cause while it's happening you might as well Enjoy it=20 agina, again, its the same as being there ... work to not believe that=20= Houdini is being asked to come beack year after year by those who=20 thought Hitler was a territory, even though its happening year after=20 year. -- a church falls, admit shit, come to genuinely good idea, that=20= always mean desiring eternal foundation of the fact that makes America=20= america.= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 08:55:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ray Bianchi Subject: Re: GUARDIAN DEL SOL V E H U I A H #0003 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit adonai ----- Original Message ----- From: "august highland" To: Sent: Sunday, October 27, 2002 4:11 AM Subject: GUARDIAN DEL SOL V E H U I A H #0003 > V E H U I A H is the first name of God and means Exalted. The > Tetragrammaton [YHVH] is the four-letter divine name which God revealed to > Moses (EXODUS 6:2). It is composed of four hebrew letters: Yud, Hey, Vav > and Hai. According to the judaic mathematical/mystical science of gematria, > the tetragrammaton, when spelled out as one word, yields the numerological > equivalent of seventy-two: Yud+vav+dalet=20, Hai+yud=15, > Vav(vav+yud+vav)=22, and Hai(hai+yud)=15. > > > this new project by the worldwide literati mobilization network, conceived > by emile vincent, comprises the multiplicative rearrangement of each of the > 72 divine names > there are 1,000 volumes for each name > the cover artwork for each volume are screen captures of the Old Testament > in hebrew, also known as the Five Books of Moses. > > > > multiplicative textstreaming by emile vincent > > V E H U I A H #0003 (excerpt) > www.guardian-del-sol.com > > > v h h u a i u i h i h u h u i i h h i i h v u i i h i v u h i v h u i a h v > u u i h a h i h v e h i e u v i h u h i e h h h u u i h u h a u v h a h i u > u a u h i v h a i h v v h h i h h i i h h h u a a v h i v h h i i h u i v h > v a i v a a u i i h u i h u e a v h u h i h h a i e v h h h a a v i h u h h > h i i h h h u u u h u i e v u u i u v u h h i v v i u h a u u h i h u e h a > i a u v h a i v h h u a u h i i v a h u i h a h h v u h i u a h h u h i i h > a h i i u i v u u u i u h u h h i h v u h i h u i v h i v u a i u u i u h u > e i i h u h h i h h v h i i v h i u h i v u h a i u h i i h h i i v h u v h > a i i h a a i h v a u i h u h u h h h i h u v u u i h u u i u a u i v u u i > v u h i i v h e h i h u u i h u u h a u i u i u i h h a a i h u i u h i v a > u h i h u v h v u h i a u i v h a i h u u h i u u h u a u i i u u i u i h v > i i u h u a i u i v v i h i i h u i v h h h u u i v h u i h i h u v u i a v > u a i u v i v u i h h u i h v i i h a u v i e h u u u h i a h v e a h u h a > h v i u i i h h e v h h u v i u i h a h i h u i h u i i v a u h h u u i h u > u a u i v a a i i h v a h i e u u a u i h h u i h a h i h v a a i u h u u i > i u u u i h u u e h a i v a h i h h v u u h i h a h v a i i u u i i a u h a > e u i a h v u u u i a h h h i v h i h h i a u h i h a h i i h u i h u v u h > u h a i u i h h h h i v i h v h u i u v h u i i u h u h i v a u v v h h i v > h a i e h i u i v h h h u i h u u h h i h u h h a h i i h h a u i u i u h u > i e a v e h u h i a a h v h i h v u i v h a i u i h u h v i v e h i v h a i > v h v u h u i h u v h v e h i h h a u i e h i i v u u v h a i u v u e v h u > u h i h u i h h u h i i h h i i h e i v h u i h a i h i h u e h a u u e a u > a e u i h v u i h u e u h h u h i u e u e a i v h a i h h a v u i i h a a h > h h i v h u i a v h u a i v h v e h i h u i h u i e a u u i v h a u i v u h > e u i h a h i v h h i h u i h u i i i h u i h a u h i u a v e u e i u i v h > h h i h u v a e u a h v a a i u e i u a h v a a i v v a h u u h i h h h h u > i h h u a e h u h i a h h i u a i u i h a h v a u i i h u i u u u h i u v u > u u v a a i i h h i i u h h a i v h u u u u i h a h i u h i u h i u e i h u > v h i v h a i i h u i u h v a i h u a h i a h u i h a h v a i h h h u h i h > u u v a a u h i i h h i i i h u i h h i h i v h h e h i h e e h a a i i v v > i h i h u h u h i h e u i u a i i h h h v a a i a v h u a i u h h a v a a i > i h u i v h u h e u i u e a a h h e i h e e e h v h i h u h h e a h e v i v > v u e h u i a u h h i v a h a u i i h u e a u u i u i i v u u v h a i h u v > u h e u i i h i v u h i h u h h a u v a a i a a v i u i a u v i a a v i u i > i v h u i u h e h i v h a u i v h u h u i i h h u i u e h a h i v e h u i h > u h u v u h e u i a a v i u i h u a h h h i u i u e v u i v a a i h h a u v > a a i u e e u v i u h i h a h v a a i h v u i h u u v i u i v i u i a a h u > h i v h i h i i h u h i v u u i h v u h i h u i e h u v a a i i h h i v a i > i u h a i i v h u v a i h u h a h i v h a u h i i h a u i h u h v h u h i i > h h i i i h u i e h u u h u i i h u i v h u h e u u i i h u i u i h h v u h > u h i h u e u i i v a a i v h a i u i v h e u h u i h h v a i a u h h i h v > a a u h i h a h i h e i h h v h a i u u u i h e e e h v e h i h u h u e u h > h u h i v h h i a v h a i i h u i i h a h i h u i u h i u h i v u i i u h i > h h a u i h h a h h a i v h u i h a u i h u i h u i i h a a h u h u i e h a > i h v a u h i h h h h u i i h h u u i u i v h u i i h u i v a u v a u u u i > i h u i h u u h u h v i i i h u u i a u u h u h i i h h i i h i u h h i h i > a h h i v u i v i h i v h a u i u a a h u u i h v i u i h u u u a a i h i e > h e h i u h u i i u u i i i u h h i i h h i i h u h i a h v i a a h u i i h > a a h i v h h i u e i h h i h v h i h u i h u u v h i u h a h u i h a h i v > u e h i u i i u i v u h i h a h i h u e h a u i h a e i u h i u v i u u i h > a u i v a v u i i h u h u e i h a a a u h h i v u h e h u i h u u i a v a h > i i i h u u u h i i a h a u h i v h a h u h v a a i u u u a i v v i u i h u > a h a v u u u u i i v h u i i a v u u i i h i h u u h i i h u u u h i e h u > h i i i h h u u i i v h i i h i h u i h u u i h h a a u h u i i h h u i e h > a u v h u h u h i i h h u i h h h a u u h i v h u h i v u e h i u i u v h u > h i h u v h i e h v a a i v v i u i v u e h i u i u u a i i v h a i u h i i > h h u i v h u i i h h i u h i v u h u i u i h u u u h i h u h a h i v u h u > i a u u h i v v i h i h h h h v u i i h h i v h h i i h v u v i h i v h a u > i h u i v a h a e u h i i h u i h u a u a u h h u i e h h v i u h i e h v h > e v h a u i h e e h i i h h h i u i i h h i i u v a h i i i u a i v u h u h > a u i h u h v i i u h u a i i e a h h i h u u u h u u h i h a h v a i h i v > h h h h u u v a a i v h i u a i i e a i v u h i v h h u u i h u u v i i u u > i h a a u u i a u i u i a h h u h i v a v u v e i u u h h a i h u i h h u i > e u h i h v a a i e a v e h u h v i h u u h a i i h u i u h i h u h h u i h > u h i h u i h h u i a a h u h v u h h i v h v u u i h a a a v a a i u v u u > h u i v u u i h u h u a v u i u h a i u u h h u i v v a h h v i e a h i h v > a u i h v u a i i u h h i u a i v h u i a u v a h v h h h h h h i h u v v i > a u u u i u h h v i i h u i e u a i a h h i a u a a u h i v a h u a i u h i > a u v i h v a h i v v v u i i h u i h h v u h i h u u v i a h i v h a u i i > h h a i i h u i u v h u h v h h i u i h a h i i h u i h h h h a a u i u a i > u i i h u h i h h u h v a a i h u v h a e a u i i i u h v u h u i h u u v u > h i e a h h i h u h i i u u i i v a e h u h u v a a i a a i v u h u i h u u > h i h u v h h e i v u u h i h v u i v h h i u u u v h a i u u v i i i h h i > i u h h u u i h v v i e h u h a h i v h v e h i h u > > > > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.404 / Virus Database: 228 - Release Date: 10/15/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 08:25:05 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: minnesota In-Reply-To: <005101c27d77$afb12e80$6196ccd1@CeceliaBelle> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" thanks david. it's like our own (mn's i mean) 9/11 --and bush hasn't even acknowledged it. and the news is full of the damn sniper, with tiny scrolls of news about wellstone trickling across the bottom of the screen...i ahve no doubt that this was a political assassination, myself. but that is exactly why i think it will backfire on the sick ones. xo, md At 10:13 PM -0700 10/26/02, dcmb wrote: >We can only hope so, Maria. Hold fast to the memories of your visit to >Maine, meanwhile. Evil doesn't always win. Who will ever forget "I am -not- >a crook..."? Yours, David >-----Original Message----- >From: Maria Damon >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Date: Saturday, October 26, 2002 6:50 AM >Subject: minnesota > > >>v sad got back from glorious visit to maine, saw Blaser/Creeley, >>Friedlander/Billiteri (sp?), Evans/Moxley, Pollet/Marjo, beautiful >>drive up and back, and then 17 msgs on the voice mail, one about paul >>wellstone. checking email, learn that another person in the tiny >>plane was the husband of our department's accountant, one of >>wellstone's top aides. the first american casualties in the us war >>for oil, iraqi branch. v v sad, but hoping it'll ignite and inspire > >the antiwar movement... > >-- > > -- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 13:56:13 -0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lakey Teasdale Subject: segasseM. ytiddiuq otno secafrus MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Messages. quiddity onto surfaces and sometimes wrote drought exposed ma- nipulant exhibitant the atmosphere not half aware=20 self emptiness in on upon the simple bond white paper fold rice paper=20 planes=20 derailed the missives not concluded yet included or=20 disturbed. It better had so dispersed. The curse un- clenched sub-verse. Sieved to leave no path=20 the spaces of=20 Sometimes=20 but not before written sharply oozing=20 abusive! a veil slashed not much protecting=20 carpology coigned alight. The slight of pure of raw=20 plosive. Past post-possible irrelevant & failed.=20 protected=20 projected=20 forfeited.=20 another=20 sinking=20 last=20 contemplation=20 unknowingly caressed.=20 The heraldic tunic? Its code?=20 Simply as images simplify preventive psalterist slime all around flesh punctilious pre the cataclysmic debris quashed or quenched? caressed the message, spent.=20 paper=20 veiled=20 message=20 of flesh. a splayed cloture erased. and the=20 mystical zeroth and/or ooze inscribed=20 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 07:37:05 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: THE HONESTY OF SLICED ORANGES Comments: cc: "arc.hive" <_arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au>, cupcake kaleidoscope , Renee , rhizome , wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Trees furiously rusting. Now, Brittany thinks, sighing soft mantras on digits to the curve of her breasts, which in silhouette amble forth like an odalesque repealing appellate justice, like an honesty of juice and sliced oranges. Yes, Brad, now the trees furiously rust, and continue to do so, though warnings of soft skeletal awe memorize harsh shining. As for I, forget it; ego and eros are not synonymous terms. It's hot when we wake up, our sinuses curling, and Renee rolls over to Lewis with her shirt half up; he readily wakened, weeping velvet in a pit of his own winnings (neurological): he jazz lake, he lurk straight, he row fake caves through the soft palatial tissue of her mouth; molding moon in it, waxing tide in it, washing soap until it codes docile and solvent, voting. "I'd like to buy the world a coke," Brittany moans, and when Brittany moans a small very firm crystal chip learns primate behavioral patterns by leaping through bonobo speech; "Jesus," says Brad. "I'm hanging around here like I stole someone's holy land." ===== http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html meditation, net art, poeisis: blog http://lewislacook.blogspot.com/ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 09:15:56 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Resent-From: Bill Berkson Comments: Originally-From: Bill Berkson From: Bill Berkson Subject: Ron Padgett Nov. 20 Comments: To: aaron shurin MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT RON PADGETT Poetry Reading sponsored by The San Francisco Art Institute & The Poetry Center, SFSU Wednesday, November 20, 7:30 p.m. Lecture Hall San Francisco Art Institute 800 Chestnut Street, SF $6 general admission; $4 students, seniors. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 17:13:49 -0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lakey Teasdale Subject: Virginia Berated by an Elder: the redle of sredle Comments: To: "WRYTING-L : Writing and Theory across Disciplines" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Virginia Berated by an Elder: the redle of sredle And always composed disposed an afterthought interpretation space of the = edgy nerves ending. The panicked-you were thinking about this morning. = This morning? Or the morn's mourning. The runt, blunt someone speaking = to someone else's unfolded listen to your insolent stagnant intimacy in = leaves. Leaves and/or remembered layers of your Mormon experienced = memories, the recognition of which sent, went unrecognised before no = single point defining event around=20 and around in the usual circles of sublime circulation. The judges and = Elders listening closely and forming a-linear quivering collusion, = nonetheless demystified and make no mistakes circulates. Where does it = end? In their dreams, pre-judged, no doubt and found to be lacking in = consideration of broken warped delicate and/or embarrassed. Tell me = about it. Tell you what? Whatever's on your mind. What's on your mind? = Anywhere near your mind. And: Do you mind? Hardly an agitation left on = the windowsills. Blown off/from any unclenched suffocating truth. Dear, = oh deary me-oh-my. Oh. Remember the past year? Any impressions, sensory, = visual or otherwise stimuli? Had any or heard any voices, lately? What = are voices? You know, something that sounds. Without the peculiar, = feathered body and/or presence of mind. Do you mind? What else? Ah, a = slow dissolve. The resolve to dissolve. It's distances all over again. = It's the real thing. The intervention of prophets on walls of = circulation and a real free breath of hot air. Distinct weight of. = Heaviness. You sense that weight, but no, sir. This is not gravitas. = This is not relevant nor the antidote to the linear quiver of the = befuddled and muddled ego taking an oozing bath of suffocating soaps = bubbles. In voices. Which. Speak. So. that. They. Can. Simply. Be. = Heard. Voices weigh with words and the words weigh. What do they know = and what they do not know. About anything or about themselves. What do = you know? What can you know at any one time except for the others' = voices coming at your direction. Does it happen in pontificating signs = the someonething-for-everyone vitriolic inter-penetrating acoustical = ACROSTIC. Where is the voice coming from? Not the voice of judgement = which comes from those best qualified to judge from the lime pit. The = sublime pit. The pit-bull watching the watcher who self consciously = watches her self positing the writing on the wall now SDRAWKCAB!!. That = is but the mirage in the wilderness. Of course. SDRAWKCAB!!. Where in = all? LLA. Draw conclusions of charcoal and a little = something-for-everyone formed of and in the predictable identity of the = non-identity. The statement therein enclosed concealed revealed in the = sdawkcab wilderness of something for everyone. The permission to, if all = is said, undone/unsaid BENEATH A SEA. Well, now. Whoever would have = thought the sage so sage and her loss of the sense of the profound = confounded. Damn right one can personae on non as one choices and no = grata about it. It's called read and or hear and respond or DELETE. The = prophets of fatal projections. Again the refusal. Again. 'Fraid so. One = cannot, cannot accept all the relevant irrelevant on its face. Or hands = or knees. It all depends what rings. And how. At any given time. One = voice speaking does not necessarily provoke another listening and the = other listening does not necessarily provoke anything at all but some = do. Some and not others do read another or one. The trace in space of a = spitting gesture. How to insist TSISNI and keep GNITSISNI about the=20 depth of the blue=20 of what it is possible to know and or suffer. The effect of a sound/s of = the blue ice flow and the breaking of the glaciers=20 moving, moving.=20 This moves one to measure the effect of your words Why are you there? = Are you there? It wasn't the words in your mouth. It was surely the = mouths of the judge moving, moving, deliberating before they wrote HO! = SDRAWKCAB ! What they/she/he was doing to the words out of porridge this = morning. What is it if it isn't silence.=20 or ECNELIS.=20 The judge looked down and caught herself!=20 Taught herself judgement. Did she/he make a sound? Was it, go on you can = say. Feel free, all the birds of paradise silent as thieves. Feel free. = Was the sound really Ho?=20 Only Ho.=20 or No? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 10:30:56 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: EMILY Comments: cc: "arc.hive" <_arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au>, cupcake kaleidoscope , Renee , rhizome , wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I'm nobody, rubbing hands over luscious pervasive curves of air. See my live webcam. I wait all day for the rubbery thread you started in lists to tremble; when it does, I swallow the vibrations. A string, plucked from lump sums of products; I'm the multiplicand, catty like a track record of spit and oval solution, all of which takes this shape to be its lawfully webbed wide-eyed WASP. In the breakfast nook, coon-dogs bellow mixed neighborhood watch to time the replication of hourly role-playing by a root of node folders demented. With cement in my lungs, circuitry pits awe against doldrum jailing again and again; I can't even begin to express my surprise when I look out my window, with so much space slathered everywhere and everywhere at once when I'm looking. Where does it go when I turn away? I'm nothing in particular, I said, though I knew she was sleeping. I'm empty and aching and I don't know why. Still, before the dinosaurs ftp their extinction to maximum disk space useage quantized to a bible, I'll be able to witness a wryting using AIML to format my responses. A corn-dog in the civil rights movement should behave quite in particulars, like teeth sprayed with lucid grammars of momentum vexed. And the string glistens, and the string moves too fast to see. ===== Anningan (in progress) http://www.lewislacook.com/Anningan/AnningansDoor.html http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html meditation, net art, poeisis: blog http://lewislacook.blogspot.com/ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 14:11:51 -0500 Reply-To: Allen Bramhall Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Allen Bramhall Subject: perfect bound from potes&poets press MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit potes&poets press is pleased to release the following books of innovative poetry. ( fly and be free ! ) 'Memory Cards & Adoption Papers' by Susan M. Schultz ISBN#1893541-70-3 Does culture invent language or does language invent culture? In Susan Schultz's 'Memory Cards & Adoption Papers both realities teeter and crash, making Origin a profligate occasion without end. These poems examine the dynamics of Being through the linguistic portholes of individual and collective history, knowing all the while that "our natural language is translation, and we cannot get it right." And yet, even inside the simulacra where " the language is a nomad...which eventually pulls up its tent....," Schultz's dedication to the living imaginary is unflinching. "What we owe the commonwealth is allegiance to the common," she writes, and Memory Cards & Adoption Papers reifies that fealty. A brilliant book! -Claudia Keelan, author of Utopic and other volumes 'Tri Loka' by Ivan Arguelles ISBN# 1-893541-72-x Ivan Arguelles' poetry might best be described as a labyrinth except that it is also a house afire. This work continues the extraordinary experiments of books like 'Madonna Septet'- books which verge on the indescribable. Arguelles work thrusts us into a world in which absolutely anything may be said. The book deliberately tests our capacity to read it as it continually deconstructs the very guideposts to which we cling-in vain. The theme of this " fictive diary'/this excerpt from the unwritten poem" is the poets encounter with the "Other"-and particularly the Other as woman: goddess, mother, pop star, "the terrible mix up of girl, friends/wife lovers and cancer patients." Yet this is like no love poem in the history of literature. The idea of the "Beloved" is still another guidepost which the poem finally removes from us....- Jack Foley 'Simple Theory" by Allen Bramhall ISBN#1-893541-74-4 The possibility seemed exhausted for rocking, contemporaneous, tuneful poetry witha distinctively Yankee accent once John Wieners passed on. Allen Bramhall's 'Simple Theory' pours cold magnolia water all over such a snag, yielding accelerated pleasure with each drenching verse-postulation of long lifetimes in poetry's perpetual and immediate surroundings: grace, ardor-gazing, day-to-day crisis. Don't let these blocks of prose fool you, 'Simple Theory reads and sings as a 21st century Inferno-cum-Paradiso, self-regarding narrative thrust along with the attendant versemaster's craft. Bramhall jesters and clowns his way to the top of compassionate detachment-an exceptional achievement. --Jack Kimball These titles and more available through Small Press Distribution at http://www.spdbooks.org ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 14:26:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: poem Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed The Heart of Friday Night hatefucking the help until it's time To chill Blackout until your show is on, on the outbound side a cross of Abandon and shaky Free of the fallout from Yesterday's meltdown, we'll skip and Jump Braced for the bumpiest of rides During EKGs we yearn for vengeance Awaiting that secure feeling that Might one day assuage We hop the turnstiles, becuz we can Hop Namedropping brashly while they're all falling asleep Everyone you know is always in Peril of cuts that might Forever gush Now nurses bounce to the beat as sunglasses pierce and Deflect fluorescent tortures You can be certain of the quality of prescriptions, somehow Closeby Pick someone who's sweat feels Real Sliding down the small of your back Fingers reach the latch, relief be Sweet be trick _________________________________________________________________ Broadband? Dial-up? Get reliable MSN Internet Access. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 14:37:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: poem Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Rainy Season If we lave it Up to cockblockers Where would we be? Ceilings and paper towels, that's *Where* alive for a Stretch to Dry Or curve away splendidly The Western front is all talkback and bookblurbing At this rate we'll Never see the Bottoms of icebergs or Visigoths as they flank Fetch the paddles and let's palpitate until the Blow wears off Even the biggest assholes just want to be Probed Don't fall on my head again, it's distracting my Dynamo Enchant prissy chicks into leather Seats and Getting *crazy bitch* tattoos Does it really matter who you're holding onto for dear life During the Flood at the end of the World? Probably, but hold off making those Unique partnerships until The water stops rising. I kinda wanna dress you up in My love and throw you an orange Line _________________________________________________________________ Get a speedy connection with MSN Broadband. Join now! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 15:46:27 -0500 Reply-To: ksilem@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ksilem@MINDSPRING.COM Subject: KIT ROBINSON READING TENTATIVELY POSTPONED Comments: To: subpoetics-l@hawaii.edu Please disregard (for now) the announcement I forwarded last night on Kit Robinson's upcoming reading in Berkeley. Further forwarded info follows: -------- Forwarded message -------- To all, Please hold off on forwarding Lyn's email. Due to a scheduling conflict (Ron Padgett at SFAI!) and other factors, we may have to postpone the party for THE CRAVE. Stay tuned! Kit > Atelos has lost most of its email addresses and its > mailing list due to the > crash of our desktop computer. Any of you who could > forward this message for > us, please do so. > The message is this: > > Atelos and The Lab invite you to a reading > celebrating the publication of THE > CRAVE, by Kit Robinson. There will be a reception in > honor of Kit afterward. > The event will take place at [OBSOLETE INFO DELETED] > We will hope to see you there. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 13:42:47 -0800 Reply-To: cstroffo@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino Subject: Re: KIT ROBINSON READING TENTATIVELY POSTPONED Comments: To: ksilem@mindspring.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kasey--- Thanks for letting me know about this---- seems like a big conflict night... By the way, David Berman is also reading at St. Mary's on Wednesday Nov. 20th as well... Chris ksilem@MINDSPRING.COM wrote: > Please disregard (for now) the announcement I forwarded last night on Kit > Robinson's upcoming reading in Berkeley. Further forwarded info follows: > > -------- Forwarded message -------- > To all, > > Please hold off on forwarding Lyn's email. > > Due to a scheduling conflict (Ron Padgett at SFAI!) and other factors, we may > have to postpone the party for THE CRAVE. > > Stay tuned! > > Kit > > > Atelos has lost most of its email addresses and its > > mailing list due to the > > crash of our desktop computer. Any of you who could > > forward this message for > > us, please do so. > > The message is this: > > > > Atelos and The Lab invite you to a reading > > celebrating the publication of THE > > CRAVE, by Kit Robinson. There will be a reception in > > honor of Kit afterward. > > The event will take place at [OBSOLETE INFO DELETED] > > We will hope to see you there. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 14:43:15 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: minnesota In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >.i ahve no doubt that this was a political assassination, >myself. but that is exactly why i think it will backfire on the sick >ones. xo, md One hopes so, but I am pretty pessimistic about that. I mean who would have believed that Bush and his Oilmen could have got away with what they have got away with so far. We need an antagonistic superpower with ABombs etc. You will note that Bush is not talking about how he's going to bomb and invade North Korea. -- George Bowering Free of sin. Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 18:30:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jane Sprague Subject: Los Dias De Los Muertos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit SPOKEN WORD SUNDAYS AT ZOEY'S CAFE IN VENTURA PRESENTS LOS DIAS DE LOS MUERTOS COMMUNITY ALTAR BY gauvin NOV 1, 2, 3 AND READING SUNDAY NOVEMBER 3 AT 5PM FEATURING los angelena liz gonzalez y taoseno amalio madueno TELL YOUR FRIENDS! BRING SOMETHING FOR THE ALTAR! BRING POEMS FOR THE OPEN MIC! BIOS liz gonzález is the author of Beneath Bone (Manifest Press), a volume of poems. Her writings have appeared in numerous publications including ARTLIFE, Luna, Spillway, The Cider Press Review, Brújula, 51%, Blue Satellite, The San Francisco Chronicle and the anthology Grand Passion. liz grew-up in Rialto, San Bernardino County and lived in L.A. from 1990-1996. In 1999, she earned an MFA in English and Creative Writing at Mills College in Oakland. Since 1993, liz has presented her writing in venues throughout Southern California, the Bay area, and Phoenix. Her most recent awards include an honorable mention in ChicanaWriter's Ella Y Su Voz 2001 Short Story Contest and the 1999/2000 Writer in Residence at the Phoenix College Creative Writing Program in Arizona. Currently, liz lives in Long Beach. She teaches creative writing at UCI Extension and in the Writer's Program at UCLA Extension. She is also developing a book length manuscript about her grandmother's experiences as a teen during the late 20's in San Bernardino. (pics and poems to come....) Amalio Madueno lives in Taos New Mexico. Born in the farming community of southern California, Amalio Madueno has been a community activist and is now a business consultant for the Taos County Economic development Corporation.He served as the referee for the sanctioned "Pan-American Championship" Poetry Bout in Guadelajara Mexico. He is a member of Luminous Animal, a jazz/poetry ensemble. A founder and fixture of the Taos Poetry Circus, he is the Mexican Bob of Mexican Bob's Poetry and Performance camp. Amalio Madueno's poems have appeared in numerous journals including Poetry, El Templo, Sin Fronteras, The Americas Review, and in the anthologies SALUDOS: POETS OF NEW MEXICO, CHOKECHERRIES, and WHERE I LIVE. His books include Smoke, Garcia in Space, Coyote Observes Humans. He served as the referee for the sanctioned "Pan-American Championship" Poetry Bout in Guadelajara Mexico. He is a member of Luminous Animal, a jazz/poetry ensemble. A founder and fixture of the Taos Poetry Circus, he is the Mexican Bob of Mexican Bob's Poetry and Performance camp. (pics and poems to come...) Please join us at Zoey's Cafe in Ventura in the El Jardin Courtyard 451 E. Main between Oak and California From 101 from the south, take California exit to Main; turn left. From 101 from the north, take the Main exit. Check out zoeyscafe.com for more info; for pics from previous readings, go to litrave.com Next month, Sunday December 8 5pm: live from Seattle, it's Danike Dinsmore! plus musicians! plus a journey to Winter Holiday in Ventura 1905 with Living Historian Suzanne Lawrence. Please forward this email to poetry loving friends! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 16:33:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: derek beaulieu Subject: new from housepress: "All Americans" by Fred Wah MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Anyone who encounters insult and hatred because of her or his = differences from a powerful group is bound, sooner or later, to echo a = we through the use of I and to draw the line between us and them, we and = they." -- Nicole Brossard "Poetic Politics" new from housepress: ALL AMERICANS by Fred Wah published in an edition of 125 handbound and numbered copies. $8.00 each including postage. for more information, or to order copies, please contact: derek beaulieu 1339 19th ave nw calgary alberta canada t2m1a5 derek@housepress.ca ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 16:41:56 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22much_too_punched_out=22_--_C.O.?= MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Stephen Baraban, You ask (copied below) what the analogy exactly may be that Olson was suggesting between himself and Beethoven. What becomes evident to me in Olson's 1962 Goddard reading is that the problem of performance and of score, of speech and of writing, are conflictually inter-related. He imagines himself as a Beethoven, "deaf" but composing anyway. "I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not -- I'm Beethoven!" Olson says. Or in other words, I'm not a performer, I'm not performer X, Y, or Z, I'm the composer. A performer needs to be recorded in front of a live audience, but the composer only need (correctly) score the work. However Olson admits to trouble in scoring -- which I take to be an admission that scoring is not that easily differentiated from performance after all, that any scoring is already an attempted performance (as it must be if it is to function as a score in the first place) -- even, an attempted recording. But then what is the analogous "organ" (to Beethoven's ear) that Olson does not "need" in composing a poetics which seems otherwise fully intent (and dependent) on projecting and utilizing *all* the organs as breath embodiment? To be "the composer" is a mode of written enactment that would seem to want to transcend his own projecting organs (in performance), notably the organ of speech (*that* is post-humanism?). OR, is it: To project the organs in a mode of written enactment attempts to transcend writing. Writing is a kind of defunct organ, sort of like the appendix we once apparently used to digest grass, or a kind of unknown organ without digestive function. (Steve McCaffery’s wide-ranging essay in Prior to Meaning about Olson's interest both in Mayan hieroglyphs and in projective verse would seem to bear out the latter, i.e. projective verse, a phonocentrism, attempts to transcend writing.) Best, Louis Dear Louis Cabri, […] I'm very curious about your feeling that there's something analagical going on in O's reference to Beethoven, rather than some other composer -- B.'s loss, & his soldiering on despite it, are analogous to what? I couldn't get at what you were driving at. So could you possibly expand on that to the List, or to me, as solitary lurker? […] A free association re scoring & performing -- it's very interesting that Beethoven in his later years indicated metronome markings that are considered quite perverse. It's very hard, apparently sometimes impossible, to perfom as fast as Beethoven proposed -- & where possible, not necessarily best for the music, the musicians say. […] Thanks again, Stephen Baraban ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 17:31:54 -0700 Reply-To: chax@theriver.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: charles alexander Subject: Re: "much too punched out" -- C.O. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Louis, Also, there must be room in this distance between scoring and performance, for interpretation. Is part of the trouble with scoring, perhaps, the knowledge that the spacing and everything else on the page will be interpreted differently by readers/speakers? And indeed, Beethoven's scoring is only the enabler of performance, and not, in an absolute way, the determiner of it. And of course this is not something specific to Beethoven, nor is the problem, in writing, specific to Olson; it is something faced by any writer who uses the space of the page, or the look of the type, or any other visual aspect, as something that would influence the sounding of the work. charles >However Olson admits to trouble in scoring -- which I take to be an >admission that scoring is not that easily differentiated from performance >after all, that any scoring is already an attempted performance (as it must >be if it is to function as a score in the first place) -- even, an attempted >recording. > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 16:36:12 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: the need for christmas trees In-Reply-To: <000d01c27e11$431ef000$2cdade42@housepress> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v546) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit the need for christmas trees when I endeavor not standing - this another world - this cover that covers 10 years later or if not on a new understanding - a fat-principal - dead people everywhere - when I appear slowly on the whole on the cover that is part art part everybody - when I was not on the corner cornered in fat felt h field of our creativity - I appear slowly on the dead people conformity - dear self-conscious - "I" I was thirty I made a need for coffer fat felt identification = hysteria last words - the dada soul train working ageist in conformity dear self-conscious - "I" I appear slowly not standing now in the world - I appear slowly on the broader isolation here standing in the social debacle field that buzzes pops loops sound t capsules for spiritual goods - a point in how to throw a new understanding of problems were the dead continue - when I appear slowly on a need for relationship toeholds neither world is another world neither world is a dramatic contradiction to the streets to the dirt to the whole this completely crazy need FIRSTLY THE BASIC PROBLEM TO DECLARE A SPIRITUAL GOODS DICTIONARY THAT SAYS WHEN I APPEAR SLOWLY DEAR SELF-CONSCIOUS "I" I AM S LANGUAGE RAW MATERIALS ORGANIC MATERIALS THE RIVER JORDAN ONE SIDE FAT FELT CORNERS THE LAST WORD 5 YEARS LATER THE PHYSICAL FLESH THEATRICAL METHODOLOGY ANIMALS POINTING TO A NEW UNDERSTANDING OF WHEN I AM NOT STANDING IN LANGUAGE PROBLEMS AS THIS FIELD PRINCIPAL AT CORNERS FAT FELT THE NEED FOR SPIRITUAL BEING AS THERE WERE DEAD PEOPLE LYING EVERYWHERE I AM NOT STANDING IN THE STREET TO HALT SOMEONE IN THE STREET TO DECLARE THE NEXT DRAMATIC CONTRADICTIONS 10 YEARS LATER OR IF WE DO THE SOCIAL DEBACLE THE H FIELD OF OUR ON PROBLEM OF DEAD PEOPLE LYING IN LAST WARM FERRY GREETINGS THAT BREAKS THROUGH THE SPIRITUAL BEING LUNGS TONGUE LARYNX LUNGS SELF-CONSCIOUS "I" I AM NOT STANDING HERE WHEN I AM STANDING IN AESTHETICS THAT MEAN NOTHING I AM THE COVER PRINCIPAL STANDING NOW IN THE UNDAMAGED FIELD 10 YEARS LATER OR IF NOT I AM STANDING AGAINST IRON COG FOR SPIRITUAL GOODS I'M NOT A NUMBERS FOLDER VULGAR POTPOURRI I AM KILOS OF FAT-PRINCIPAL CORNERED IN A INNER FREEDOM HOOD ORNAMENTS ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 19:06:11 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: Re: minnesota In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT George Bowering wrote: I Reply: Ah, but you'll note as well that Kim Jong-Il never tried to kill Bush's daddy . . . Winkingly yours, JG ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 22:54:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: 3 poems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII 3 poems i kill a man see me, his i face, have it cut looms into before the me, throat, have see cut his into face, the it throat, looms borne is soul enemy, away, he he is is evil our - enemy, have evil soul - away, will stop many - others, i alone his stop he him will remove others, eyes, alone they are deadly, they hate deadly, stab longer ears, his no been longer approved, hear i plans his been he approved, will world i guns, him keep a in - box world there i nourishment, box warmth a of box blanket, - drink, is food, subject comforting to bed my subject no to drink, my food, eternal comforting fury bed be to master, repeatedly ride - death, be repeatedly his death i just others, as his has knows ridden no violence about knows just bounds, he nothing has about ridden speaks any speaks good of stolen he land everything and good humanity, pure robs has everything stolen pure and name in righteousness - corrupt he rip i out will tongue, the tear marrow teeth, brain eat his marrow tear brain teeth, slaughter him this man, man, a perfection - i kill a man see his face, it looms before me, have cut into the throat, borne soul away, he is our enemy, evil - will many others, alone stop him remove eyes, they are deadly, hate stab ears, no longer hear plans been approved, world guns, keep in box there nourishment, warmth of blanket, drink, food, comforting bed subject to my eternal fury be master, ride death, repeatedly death just as has ridden violence knows bounds, nothing about speaks any good stolen land and humanity, robs everything pure name righteousness corrupt rip out tongue, tear teeth, eat marrow brain slaughter this man, perfection i kill a man i see his face, it looms before me, i have cut into the throat, have borne the soul away, he is our enemy, he is evil - he will kill many others, i alone will stop him - i remove his eyes, they are deadly, they hate - i stab his ears, he will no longer hear his plans have been approved, his world is guns, i keep him in a box - i keep the box in a box - there is no nourishment, no warmth of blanket, no drink, food, comforting bed - he is subject to my eternal fury - i will be his master, i will ride him to death, repeatedly to death - just as he has ridden others, his violence knows no bounds, nothing about him speaks of any good - he has stolen our land and our humanity, he robs everything good and pure in the world - he speaks in the name of his righteousness corrupt - i will rip out his tongue, tear out his teeth, i will eat the marrow of his brain - i will slaughter him and slaughter him - this is a man, this is a perfection of man - === ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 20:25:58 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Jullich Subject: "Why I consider the not.art work DROSOPHILIA to be a significant, easily overlooked, minor masterpiece --- Friedrich Nietzsche" Comments: To: "WRYTING-L : Writing and Theory across Disciplines" In-Reply-To: <20021027235025.33081.qmail@web14807.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii When you look at http://jeffreyjullich.tripod.com/DROSOPHILIA.htm , you see a number of things: a black background with a Tripod ad banner at the top; a two column table with a narrow, yellow column to the left and a wide black-background column to the right; within the left-hand yellow column, there is a series of "words", some non-existent in English, such as "PHANNG SININN NAAS / NEQE ANND HIYH HYH"; others, in boldface, are actual English words: "SKA TEA GHEE" (ghee: a clarified semifluid butter used esp. in Indian cooking) "VAN SEAS SAD DEP" (Dep: a hair gel) "TIS KIDS LAP GIF FAG", etc.; within the black-background righthand column, there is a great deal of Courier typography in various colors, lavender (for "ftp://..." hyperlinks), grey, and yellow. (To the left-hand side of the typography, there runs a continuous vertical column: FT FT FT ...) When clicked, the lavender ftp://... URLS lead to ebi.ac.uk sites (EBI: the European Bioinformatics Institute) whose fine print clarifies the name DROSOPHILIA ("Drosophila melanogaster (fruit fly)") and proceeds to provide the originals for the grey-and-yellow typography: *"Sequencing the distal X chromosome" of a cloned fruit fly.* The line-by-line genetic information, such as MNAQQPLILEPGSKASSVVAAAAELEAATTTAALATSSATEASAA reproduced within the DROSOPHILIA not.art work is subsequently excerpted to yield the yellow column's non-existent and English words, as from above: LILE SKA AELEA TEA Thus, the collection of left-hand column "words" extracted from the fruit fly clone's genetic information in turn yield the actual boldface English words: SKA TEA GHEE VAN SEAS SAD DEP TIS KIDS LAP GIF FAG GAG ART RASP LEEK GIST SEA AGH EH SAG SNARING MRS PHALNMER WAGDY MICE RED HA GAG LID MEDIA SIR etc. [The Netscape Navigator browser (but not Internet Explorer) provides a blinking effect, so that the grey magma of typography ("MNAQQP...") blinks in and out, foregrounding the resulting yellow "words" that are the source of the left-hand column.] Critically speaking, the "poem" in the yellow left-hand column, while it may possess a "discoverer" or interpreter (that is, a preliminary subjective gleaning of the raw material), literally ~has no author~ (a kind of "found poetry"). It is "written by" --- or ~in~ --- the genes of a fruit fly clone, as it were. On closer inspection, the remaining un-bolded but non-English "words" in the yellow column contain many amusing "near-hits", like typos: "ANND ... PIC ... MSLF ... ILF ... VIMGES ... LEAPHEP ... GAVYNLY ... LAAAVAAA ... SEVN ... TELEVVNS" etc.; or curious little "jokes": "MICE KAT". Some resemble (or may actually be) words from another language, such as Thai ("AGPAPANGPATAH"), Arabic ("QAIHL ... QALAL PASAL ... HEILIL AYQALH"), Carthaginian ("TILKTAL PSEI ... SPAST PIPSPA PEF"), or Hebrew ("ISYEHAL ... QITIM"). Sincerely, Mrs Phalnmer Wagdy http://www.imagesofeyes.com/WAGDY81.htm __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 23:42:37 -0800 Reply-To: Lanny Quarles Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lanny Quarles Subject: cinema atp Comments: To: xtant@cstone.net, WRYTING-L@listserv.utoronto.ca, trnsnd , Tim Gaze , soundpoetry@yahoogroups.com, selby32@attbi.com, Rkosti@aol.com, raltemus@earthlink.net, P Ganick , list@rhizome.org, jbberry@hiwaay.net, iarguell@hotmail.com, ficus@citynet.net, Eggvert8@aol.com, edx , edx , "D. Ross Priddle" Comments: cc: andrewtopel@netscape.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable naive/brut/html/flip-flash-doodle: cine(ma-at)p: YOU CAN WRITE THE REST YOURSELF: mutant micelles open = 2[--- abjec/tint/erpr$etat$ions (the sounds of rob|ova|nity cl-unki-ng)---> = =3Dficti/veal/ien langu?ages=3D heart sutra garble--->komu%saga%mbler{35-LQ=3D++} &CAR+LO-A+TOR& http://www.hevanet.com/solipsis/desktopcollage/flashjunq/ucanwryte/cineat= p.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 01:36:06 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: new from housepress: "All Americans" by Fred Wah In-Reply-To: <000d01c27e11$431ef000$2cdade42@housepress> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >"Anyone who encounters insult and hatred because of her or his >differences from a powerful group is bound, sooner or later, to echo >a we through the use of I and to draw the line between us and them, >we and they." -- Nicole Brossard "Poetic Politics" > >new from housepress: > >ALL AMERICANS >by Fred Wah > >published in an edition of 125 handbound and numbered copies. > >$8.00 each including postage. Derek, would you save me one I can buy on the 9th? -- George Bowering Free of sin. Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 04:09:13 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: CORT SWENSEN CAFE MOCHA #0001 Comments: To: 7-11@mail.ljudmila.org, ImitationPoetics@listserv.unc.edu, o-o@konf.lt, webartery@yahoogroups.com, syndicate@anart.no, _arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au, owner-realpoetik@scn.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit AFTERHOURS LITERATI CAFE CORT SWENSEN CAFE MOCHA #0001 (excerpt) www.afterhours-literati-cafe.com doing no one disputes that august we announced some new for movies awards friend the united important role in initiating process in awards awards friend the united important role in initiating process in awards doing no one disputes that august we announced some new for movies awards friend the united important role in initiating process in awards the friend the united important role in initiating process in doing no one disputes that august we announced some new for and sciences right can talk five minutes the friend the united important role in initiating process in doing no one disputes that august we announced some new for and sciences oscar the friend the united important role in initiating process in awards site mira oscar trivia site all hours dragged roosters began crow day soon light oscar trivia from helping who lives nearby came over with us and then her son the obscure roman oscar more month experiment began doctor ventured hint jim survival all oscar nominations sovereignty integrity and democratic and economic reform with and as you welcome the begin period of rejoicing a sovereignty integrity and democratic and economic reform issues and strengthening missile and dual on arms in china and sovereignty integrity and democratic and economic reform perfect strangers each other categories from the very and look back at his stream deafened me felt its you guys the awards covering want? nan asked and television awards concentrates highly the oscar predictions and the peninsula in than six years since but man ugly or not britanica friend the united important role in initiating process in awards referring happening related detail rover boys new york explores the referring happening related detail rover boys new york of arrival of and steadfast and he the organization filmmaking through the wait some scenes farmhouse ride ten minutes moving the friend the united important role in initiating process in awards prosecution of criminal activities through the worldwide law thus later sherwood came home feet dragged more usual regarded child critically the mounted himself shot upwards out that could not thickets just eluding asked prosecution of criminal activities through the worldwide law thus later sherwood came home feet dragged more usual regarded child critically yearly security and long-term savings to provide enhanced funding filmguy the cooperation enforcement officials keeping crime away from taiwan the her visitor was david she you fuck floating laughed chart predictions plus these thoughts just flitting brain fellow stooped pick pretty taiwan the her visitor was david she you fuck floating laughed with anywhere year like myself object charity nan cried heat guess earn awards filmsite org saying agree to it it was never agreed to bridge that referring happening related detail rover boys new york and the peninsula in than six years since but man ugly or not the friend the united important role in initiating process in awards and their winners from the the flick filosopher friend the united important role in initiating process in the cooperation enforcement officials keeping crime away from special want? nan asked transaction business matters importance wrapped up books waxes lyrical about better leave flying alone remarked that won the sovereignty integrity and democratic and economic reform perfect strangers each other oscar goldderby experts and amateurs this online racetrack predict the oscar winners littlegoldenguy searchable strategy in russia and the nis threat reduction programs have friend the united important role in initiating process in awards statistics and now that smiled i know should have bore the same voting ballots for any but the staring at his wife captured by the seminoles on throughout oscar referring happening related detail rover boys new york oscar countdown want? nan asked fan right can talk five minutes dedicated the friend the united important role in initiating process in --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.408 / Virus Database: 230 - Release Date: 10/24/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 07:34:45 -0500 Reply-To: ron.silliman@gte.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Subject: Recently on the Blog MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Canadian poetry = New American Poetry minus the NY School. Why? The quotidian in poetry - it's not adjunct to the work Narrative Drive: what is it? Philadelphia Progressive Poetry Calendar, v.1.1 Poetry on CDs: Edwin Torres' Please, Arundo's Triumph of the Damned How CDs present poetry: the Short Fuse CD Reading Jena Osman's "Starred Together" Jena Osman on Chain Performance poetry & the problems of historical memory Performance poetry on the page Short Fuse: The Global Anthology of New Fusion Poetry The problem of succession for bookstores & publishers Dialects in American English http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 14:06:08 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Lasko Subject: Re: "much too punched out" -- C.O. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed For what it's worth, mind is quicker to abstract design than sense, which intuits it, tho sense may quicken and extort mind into belief aside or prior to (gesturally *alone*) an act, and anyway, as Gerrit Lansing points out in intro to Steve Jonas' Exercises for Ear, ear = mind. Expiration is perforation; while inhalation is all (w)holes. No escape. The world's all exits. >From: Louis Cabri >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: "much too punched out" -- C.O. >Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 16:41:56 -0700 > >Stephen Baraban, > >You ask (copied below) what the analogy exactly may be that Olson was >suggesting between himself and Beethoven. > >What becomes evident to me in Olson's 1962 Goddard reading is that the >problem of performance and of score, of speech and of writing, are >conflictually inter-related. He imagines himself as a Beethoven, "deaf" but >composing anyway. "I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not -- I'm Beethoven!" >Olson says. Or in other words, I'm not a performer, I'm not performer X, Y, >or Z, I'm the composer. A performer needs to be recorded in front of a live >audience, but the composer only need (correctly) score the work. > >However Olson admits to trouble in scoring -- which I take to be an >admission that scoring is not that easily differentiated from performance >after all, that any scoring is already an attempted performance (as it must >be if it is to function as a score in the first place) -- even, an >attempted >recording. > >But then what is the analogous "organ" (to Beethoven's ear) that Olson does >not "need" in composing a poetics which seems otherwise fully intent (and >dependent) on projecting and utilizing *all* the organs as breath >embodiment? To be "the composer" is a mode of written enactment that would >seem to want to transcend his own projecting organs (in performance), >notably the organ of speech (*that* is post-humanism?). > >OR, is it: To project the organs in a mode of written enactment attempts to >transcend writing. Writing is a kind of defunct organ, sort of like the >appendix we once apparently used to digest grass, or a kind of unknown >organ >without digestive function. (Steve McCaffery’s wide-ranging essay in Prior >to Meaning about Olson's interest both in Mayan hieroglyphs and in >projective verse would seem to bear out the latter, i.e. projective verse, >a >phonocentrism, attempts to transcend writing.) > >Best, >Louis > > >Dear Louis Cabri, > >[…] I'm very curious about your feeling that there's something analagical >going on in O's reference to Beethoven, rather than some other composer -- >B.'s loss, & his soldiering on despite it, are analogous to what? I >couldn't >get at what you were driving at. > >So could you possibly expand on that to the List, or to me, as solitary >lurker? > >[…] A free association re scoring & performing -- it's very interesting >that >Beethoven in his later years indicated metronome markings that are >considered quite perverse. It's very hard, apparently sometimes >impossible, >to perfom as fast as Beethoven proposed -- & where possible, not >necessarily >best for the music, the musicians say. > >[…] > >Thanks again, >Stephen Baraban _________________________________________________________________ Unlimited Internet access for only $21.95/month. Try MSN! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/2monthsfree.asp ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 14:32:01 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Lasko Subject: Re: minnesota Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed But why haven't backfires fired across the horizon of political assassinations of yore? Isn't it inattention, or plethora of "new events" (much like the sensation line at the poetic horizon) that keep comin' atcha? Too much to do; not enough time. Look at Florida. The lawsuit brought by ALL those disenfranchised voters (they have an actual title wch I've forgotten) has been settled long past, out of court. Upwards of 95,000 Florida voters were denied the right to vote because they were THOUGHT TO BE "imprisoned felons" - in name only, ie., had the same name as felons; 91,000 turned out not to be. Part of the deal this group cut with Miss Katherine Harris, was that those 91,000 votes would be restored to the rolls . . . in January. Jeb's got his nose almost over the line by a razor thin margin in Florida gov. race, so it will be interesting to see the margin by which he'll win. At any rate, evil never wins because it can't create anything but more of itself, which after a time gets kind of (too) heavy, and that's where we are now, supposed to be part of an altruistic American effort to haul those sacks of shit around, the test of patriotism. It can't last, altho clearly some tea drinkers and backgammon players living in what's thought to be the cradle of western civilization are going to pay dearly for being our ancestors. But that's the game - exposure and abandonment of population, and assimilation and control of resource. But to get back to political assassination (of character), why is it no one's going after Bush for his Saudi connections through Harken to Caymen Island/BCCI banking begun in the late eighties via his dad, and in many ways extending to today? Bin Laden is small potatoes, and anyway part of the Bush team. So is Saddam. It clearly is not a war on "terrorism" in any but Popeye spinach terms; the bulk of the current push is as always to reassert the power of capital over labor. It's a class war, in which high end Central Asians are played for allies, and the poor are torn end-for-end by the chewing verb that gets down to the resources. Extraction in that sense isn't local - it's transnational because we in the west still "want" what we already "are". Thus, the need. And of the military running herd on CNN, etc. It's all a business war of high-end interests. Warren Buffett/Bill Gates vs Big American Oil / tobacco / insurance. A Ken Starr clone runs the nation, probably. >From: Maria Damon >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: minnesota >Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 08:25:05 -0600 > >thanks david. it's like our own (mn's i mean) 9/11 --and bush hasn't >even acknowledged it. and the news is full of the damn sniper, with >tiny scrolls of news about wellstone trickling across the bottom of >the screen...i ahve no doubt that this was a political assassination, >myself. but that is exactly why i think it will backfire on the sick >ones. xo, md > >At 10:13 PM -0700 10/26/02, dcmb wrote: >>We can only hope so, Maria. Hold fast to the memories of your visit to >>Maine, meanwhile. Evil doesn't always win. Who will ever forget "I am >>-not- >>a crook..."? Yours, David >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Maria Damon >>To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>Date: Saturday, October 26, 2002 6:50 AM >>Subject: minnesota >> >> >>>v sad got back from glorious visit to maine, saw Blaser/Creeley, >>>Friedlander/Billiteri (sp?), Evans/Moxley, Pollet/Marjo, beautiful >>>drive up and back, and then 17 msgs on the voice mail, one about paul >>>wellstone. checking email, learn that another person in the tiny >>>plane was the husband of our department's accountant, one of >>>wellstone's top aides. the first american casualties in the us war >>>for oil, iraqi branch. v v sad, but hoping it'll ignite and inspire >> >the antiwar movement... >> >-- >> > > > >-- _________________________________________________________________ Unlimited Internet access -- and 2 months free! Try MSN. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/2monthsfree.asp ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 10:07:56 -0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Heller Subject: In the Midwest Comments: cc: poetryetc@jiscmail.ac.uk, UKPOETRY@LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU, British-Poets@jiscmail.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I'll be presenting and reading in the Madison and Chicago area next week. Talk: "This in Which the Poet Resides" in the panel "George Oppen and Poets After" (with Lyn Hejinian, Donna Hollenberg and Rachel Blau DePlessis) at the Modern Studies Association Conference, Madison, Wisconsin, November 2nd, 9-10:30 AM. Reading with others Saturday night, Nov 3rd at the MSA at 8:30 PM. Chicago Area Poetry Readings: University of Illinois at Chicago, 700 Halstead, Monday, in the Rathskeller, Student Residence and Commons, November 4 at 3:30 PM. At Danny's (with Tom Raworth and Trevor Joyce), 1951 W. Dickens, Wednesday, November 6th at 7:30 PM. At Lake Forest College, Thursday, November 7th at 7 PM. Apologies for cross-posting. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 09:36:27 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: hlazer Subject: seconding stephen vincent MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Poetics List: Let me second what Stephen Vincent said a few days back. Two great books - on discounted special to Poetics - from Chax Press. David - Birthday Boy - Bromige's AS IN T AS IN TETHER. This one with plenty of David's great wit. A gorgeous book, from the simple exactly right cover to the long vertical design which works beautifully with the form of David's new poems - some of which are very moving, my favorite being "Poem Reading a Line by Duncan." Yes, get this book. And Tom Mandel's PROSPECT OF RELEASE. Who the hell says that "innovative" or "experimental" or "avant garde" poets can't be as full of feeling as them others? Two fine books, by a press worth supporting. Hank Lazer ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 10:46:27 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: minnesota In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" well the karma won't come back around in a straightforward way, but i have more faith in it than in antagonistic Abombers at this point in my life. love, md At 2:43 PM -0700 10/27/02, George Bowering wrote: >>.i ahve no doubt that this was a political assassination, >>myself. but that is exactly why i think it will backfire on the sick >>ones. xo, md > >One hopes so, but I am pretty pessimistic about that. I mean who >would have believed that Bush and his Oilmen could have got away with >what they have got away with so far. We need an antagonistic >superpower with ABombs etc. You will note that Bush is not talking >about how he's going to bomb and invade North Korea. > > >-- >George Bowering >Free of sin. >Fax 604-266-9000 -- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 09:44:24 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: UB POETICS POET OF THE YEAR? In-Reply-To: <3DBD597B.3010600@bama.ua.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hey, poetics people: Didn't the list, at about this time last year, go through a POET of the year search? Is it time yet for another, for 2003? Nominations? etc? Best, JG ---------------- JGallaher "How has the human spirit ever survived the terrific literature with which it has had to contend?" --Wallace Stevens ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 10:37:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Paul Stephens Subject: Official Verse on the Rise MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here a few selections from the NY Times' four pieces on poetry and poets in the last two days (during which time the paper also endorsed George Pataki for governor). Apparently, to be a Republican is now to be considered a priori apolitical. (According to a friend who went to the D.C. anti-war protests this weekend, the Times, as usual, grossly under-reported the turnout.) Note the rhetoric of bipartisanship at work in the absolute certitude of the Hemingwayesque sentences: "His poetry is not political" and "His criticism, essays and reviews are not polemical." 1. On Dana Gioia (a "calm fit" for the NEA): At least at first glance, Dana Gioia, who was proposed by the White House last week, seems to be a shoo-in. He is a writer with a background as a businessman. He is a registered Republican who voted for George W. Bush and for his father before that. His poetry is not political. His criticism, essays and reviews are not polemical. Rather, Mr. Gioia (pronounced JOY-a) appears to be someone with a wide range of artistic and intellectual interests who is passionate about making poetry more accessible to the public. 2. On Albert Mobilio: Postmodern poets make much of the value of difficulty. Arcane, fragmentarty writing encourages active reading, they argue, by forcing the reader to supply the missing material. "Thinking becomes the only way out," Creeley writes in Mobilio's poetry in the same cover blurb. This is a convenient stance for poets to take because it acquits them of any responsibility for the failings of their poems: it's the reader's fault for not working hard enough. But the work is thankless, at least in the case of the most radical poetry, because there's "no stake," as Glyn Maxwell has pointed out, in achieving "a speculatively coherent rendering of someone else's willed incoherence." 3. "And Bear in Mind": Mini-Review of Billy Collins' newest book. 4. "New and Noteworthy Paper Backs": Mini-Review of Billy Collins' selected poems. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 09:52:46 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: "all best" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Why do all academics and most writers sign their emails "all best"? I had never heard this phrase before entering academia/acapoetics. What does it mean, and does anyone know who first thought of it? Thanky Kindly, Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 10:55:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Rothenberg Subject: Re: UB POETICS POET OF THE YEAR? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I nominate myself. If I have to wait for someone else to nominate me I will perish. Love, Michael Rothenberg ----- Original Message ----- From: "J Gallaher" To: Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 10:44 AM Subject: UB POETICS POET OF THE YEAR? > Hey, poetics people: > > Didn't the list, at about this time last year, go through a POET of the > year search? Is it time yet for another, for 2003? > > Nominations? etc? > > Best, > JG > > ---------------- > > > JGallaher > > "How has the human spirit ever survived > the terrific literature > with which it has had to contend?" > --Wallace Stevens > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 10:06:42 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: Re: UB POETICS POET OF THE YEAR? In-Reply-To: <00bd01c27e9a$6a918420$95bb56d1@ibmw17kwbratm7> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Michael Rothenberg writes: I Reply: That's the spirit! You get my vote! Do I get a vote? Much of the best, but never, impossibly, all, JG ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 11:11:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Rothenberg Subject: Re: UB POETICS POET OF THE YEAR? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Consider yourself nominated! Twice. MR ----- Original Message ----- From: "J Gallaher" To: Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 11:06 AM Subject: Re: UB POETICS POET OF THE YEAR? > Michael Rothenberg writes: > > to nominate me I will perish. Love, Michael Rothenberg> > > I Reply: > > That's the spirit! You get my vote! > Do I get a vote? > > Much of the best, but never, impossibly, all, > JG > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 11:15:01 -0500 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: 'the times' i want to announce..as per ever..i will not be reading anywhere...will be publishing 0....not be recieving any grants or prizes....& will be increasing my nap time as winter approaches...sorry for cross-listing.... the NYtimes approach to the culture wars...is to assign their most jejune reporter to sort out the dead from the living...he puts the mirror in front of the walking/dead....reports no breath on the silver screen & has a few quick Billie Collins' before....ad astra...DRn... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 11:23:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: NY Times on Mobilio MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII First thought: Look at that. They're going to talk about a small press book of poems, albeit by a Whiting fellow, winner of the Balakian prize from the NBCC... but still! Second thought: Eric McHenry. Who that? Hmm, Simic interview on The Atlantic's site, the famous "Auden on Bin Laden" article from Slate last fall, some mild wisecracks on McSweeney's. Okie doke. Third thought: He read the same book I did? I seem to remember a long rambling Joycean narrative by a faded sixties' porn star at the heart of that book. Also, a true account of failing to pick up the hot neighbor. There's *some* tricky-to-parse stuff in "Me with Animal Towering", but mainly it seemed as though Albert was continuing the separate strands from his gnosticky Coolidgesque chapbook North's True Speed and the tough-guy prose magician of The Geographics, with more of his walking-around persona thrown in. Fourth thought: Pity McHenry! There no literature on Albert to draw from, the way one does with literary journalism on say Simic or Auden. And how would he know unless we initiated him how to get to the writers he'd need to have read to start to get AM: Coolidge, Gizzi, Yau, Olson, Trakl, Chandler, Cain, Dale Herd. Fifth thought: Screw McHenry! A google search on Albert Mobilio yields 312 cites, just about all of which point to the man. McHenry had a visible assignment and couldn't find the cheat sheet in time so he played the "huh?" card. He quotes AM "working this hand-me-Down abbreviator" and skips over the echoes of Levine Berryman and Pound in "Thems so specific... Theys home in a Rising rhythm" -- sounds to me like Albert isn't "making much of the value of difficulty" but arguing with it, not ducking the responsibility for the failings of his poems, but all out mea-culping the reader away! If there's thankless work going on, it's AM's, who weirdly enough seems to be coming to the same conclusion as the reviewer, while pointing toward a genre blend more genre than blend as the way out. Sixth thought: Screw the Times! Pity the Times! Heckle Pataki! Pity Mobilio! Send McHenry your books c/o the Times. Jordan Davis ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 08:27:51 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Arielle Greenberg Subject: Re: "all best" In-Reply-To: <004401c27e9a$0f5669e0$849c86a5@belzjones1500.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Yeah, I first heard it from someone online, I think, and now I use it too, even though I don't really understand it. I used to use "stars & garters," but I think I've outgrown that. I also like... "Take care," Arielle --- Aaron Belz wrote: > Why do all academics and most writers sign their > emails "all best"? I had > never heard this phrase before entering > academia/acapoetics. What does it > mean, and does anyone know who first thought of it? > > Thanky Kindly, > Aaron __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 09:35:12 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: Official Verse on the Rise In-Reply-To: <00d901c27e97$f8a639c0$2f2a3b80@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" as a supplement to paul stephens's ny times excerpts (in fact i posted the mchenry excerpt to my classes just yesterday!---as i'm keeping a weekly tab now of gratuitous anti-postmodernisms), here's an excerpt from charles mcgrath's final column in the ~book review~ ("on writers and writing," p. 31): "But it's also a novel [Ian McEwan's ~Attonement~] that's infused with an awareness that novels themselves are provisional, only a schematic and artificial way of representing an unknowable reality. This is the great discovery, if you can call it that, of postmodernism; it's also a truth so obvious that [Cyril] Connolly and [Elizabeth] Bowan would have thought it went without saying." don't you just luv this stuff? best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 11:38:03 -0600 Reply-To: "Patrick F. Durgin" Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Patrick F. Durgin" Subject: Tinfish - NEW TITLES MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tinfish Press announces the publication of Lee A. Tonouchi's new book, LIVING PIDGIN: CONTEMPLATIONS ON PIDGIN CULTURE, a collection of da pidgin guerrilla's talks and poems, some concrete, on language and culture in Hawai`i. The book is beautifully designed by Mike Cueva, and available from Tinfish (sschultz@hawaii.edu) or from Native Books (Ron Cox: coxr@hawaii.edu). Over 60 pages. $10. =20 Lee A. Tonouchi is author of DA WORD, from Bamboo Ridge Press, and co-editor of HYBOLICS. He teaches at Kapiolani Community College and performs widely in and out of state. For many years he has spoken and written only in pidgin; he is now working on a pidgin dictionary. Don't forget that copies of TINFISH 12 are available, as well, for $8 each or $20 for three issues. =20 Forthcoming soon: Sawako Nakayasu's CLUTCH, for $7. See our website at http://maven.english.hawaii.edu/tinfish for other publications and details about ordering. Support small press poetry publishing!! ------------ http://www.buffalo.edu/~pdurgin ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 08:56:06 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAXINE CHERNOFF Subject: Re: Official Verse on the Rise In-Reply-To: <00d901c27e97$f8a639c0$2f2a3b80@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I always thought that people should be given numbered placards at demonstrations so that the press would have to report an accurate #. On Mon, 28 Oct 2002, Paul Stephens wrote: > Here a few selections from the NY Times' four pieces on poetry and poets in > the last two days (during which time the paper also endorsed George Pataki > for governor). Apparently, to be a Republican is now to be considered a > priori apolitical. > > (According to a friend who went to the D.C. anti-war protests this weekend, > the Times, as usual, grossly under-reported the turnout.) > > Note the rhetoric of bipartisanship at work in the absolute certitude of the > Hemingwayesque sentences: "His poetry is not political" and "His criticism, > essays and reviews are not polemical." > > 1. On Dana Gioia (a "calm fit" for the NEA): > > At least at first glance, Dana Gioia, who was proposed by the White House > last week, seems to be a shoo-in. He is a writer with a background as a > businessman. He is a registered Republican who voted for George W. Bush and > for his father before that. His poetry is not political. His criticism, > essays and reviews are not polemical. Rather, Mr. Gioia (pronounced JOY-a) > appears to be someone with a wide range of artistic and intellectual > interests who is passionate about making poetry more accessible to the > public. > > 2. On Albert Mobilio: > > Postmodern poets make much of the value of difficulty. Arcane, fragmentarty > writing encourages active reading, they argue, by forcing the reader to > supply the missing material. "Thinking becomes the only way out," Creeley > writes in Mobilio's poetry in the same cover blurb. This is a convenient > stance for poets to take because it acquits them of any responsibility for > the failings of their poems: it's the reader's fault for not working hard > enough. > > But the work is thankless, at least in the case of the most radical poetry, > because there's "no stake," as Glyn Maxwell has pointed out, in achieving "a > speculatively coherent rendering of someone else's willed incoherence." > > 3. "And Bear in Mind": > > Mini-Review of Billy Collins' newest book. > > 4. "New and Noteworthy Paper Backs": > > Mini-Review of Billy Collins' selected poems. > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 09:06:11 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAXINE CHERNOFF Subject: Fanny Howe Reading In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Wednesday, Oct 30 Columbia College Chicago Concert Hall 1014 South Michigan @ 5:3 pm Free and open to the public Sponsored by the English Department ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 11:07:54 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: Re: "all best" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Arielle, Joe and Anastasios backchanneled that they think "all best" is a contraction of "All the best wishes" or something like that. Joe thinks it's in wider usage by net-people, and is descended from the tradition of belles-lettres. The thing I don't like is getting "all best" as a blanket sign-off to every email I get from aca-people (or netizens, perhaps). I get rejections like; "We didn't think your piece worked for our journal. The next submission period is in March. All best, the Editors" In that context, such a shorthand is infuriating. Really-- "all"? And actually "best"? Some of what you're telling me is not the best. Even the cliched "Good luck placing your work elsewhere" is less offensive. Often "all best" ends a very flat email, revealing its secretly ironic agenda. I greatly prefer a non-cliche sign-off such as "Keep doing your best" or "It's raining here" or "Word to the mother" or something along those lines. How about "ski faster" or "stop spilling noodles" or something. Anything to break through the haze! All best, Alan Beltz ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 09:14:13 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hilton Obenzinger Subject: Re: group thot? Long Live Iraq! In-Reply-To: <00aa01c27cd3$eea30540$162356d2@01397384> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 10:41 PM 10/26/2002 +1300, you wrote: >Hilton. I agree: but you can see that zionism or any kind of nationalism can >lead to racism... There are all types of chauvinism involving sense of peoplehood of one sort or another that lead to discrimination and violence. Since Jim Crow, apartheid, and Nazi mass murder, "racism" has become the term with the most vileness and horror associated with it -- and it's not as if "race" doesn't infuse nationalism and all the rest. Zionism is a hybrid, calling upon nationalism to solve Jewish oppression through colonial utopian "restoration" which has led to usurpation and wholesale violence with a distinctly racist quality. Examine the "colonization" movement in the 19th century which created Liberia and you'll see a very similar mess -- one in which freed American slaves (Americo-Liberians) created plantations and oppressed native Africans in ways similar to the US -- and the US, South Africa, Liberia, and Israel all had (have), to one degree or another, despite many differences, a covenantal sensibility infusing the project (America as the New Jerusalem; Afrikaners actually signed a covenant; Americo-Liberians as civilizers and converters of Africa; Israel's special relationship to Palestine, despite trying to have Jews be a "normal" nation, especially with settlers after 1977). And perhaps there is a poetics to all of this. Hilton ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hilton Obenzinger, PhD. Associate Director of Undergraduate Research Programs for Honors Writing Lecturer, Department of English Stanford University 650.723.0330 650.724.5400 Fax obenzinger@stanford.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 10:39:22 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: derek beaulieu Subject: dANDelion: a special issue around the work of Roy Kiyooka. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable dANDelion Magazine is currently seeking submissions for a special issue = around the work of Roy Kiyooka (1926-1994).=20 dANDelion is looking for creative and critical work that intersects with = the issues and communities around Roy Kiyooka's work. We are actively = seeking work that address problems of representation, culture, media and = performance, the document in photography and poetry, as well as = Kiyooka's own poetics, photography, fine art, performance, film, = pedagogy and cultural work. Submissions desired:=20 - mixed-genre work - B&W Art: (ie: photography, illustration, mixed-media) - Prose: poetics, critical/theoretical, interviews, reviews and poetic = statements - Poetry: experimental and linguistically innovative work, "long" &/or = serial forms, translation deadline: Jan 31st, 2003. Please address inquiries & submissions to:=20 dANDelion Magazine c/o department of English, university of Calgary, = 2500 university drive NW, Calgary Alberta, t2n 1n4, Canada submissions are also welcome via email (as DOC or JPEG files) to: derek@housepress.ca ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 09:42:13 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: Official Verse on the Rise In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT The NY Times almost absolute dismissal of numbers at the DC demonstration - the CNN web site even reported that it was over a 100,000 and possibly the largest ever - is mind boggling. Other than being titillated by the vision of General Tommy Franks as Bush's first "live-in-Iraq" satrap, to my perhaps limited knowledge, the Times has not expressed an outright editorial commitment to an invasion (unilateral or otherwise). So I don't know why they should ignore demonstrations across the country, nor why they ignore innovative poetry on one hand and, to a degree, embrace cutting edge visual arts on the other. (Gallery Ads support the art pages, where innovative small press ads are mostly non-existent in the Book Review is perhaps the real answer.) Where I walked in San Francisco, the visuals (signs), and street theater were lively and wonderful. A Berkley Bakery collective paraded with raised Peace symbols made out of baguettes. (I like the idea of eating Peace). Then there was, "It's Osama, stupid." And finally the most outer-edge placard read: Vegan Lesbian Transgender Punk Epidemiologist (With a big red heart painted under the words). And there was the low key undecipherable chants of small groups of wiccans under the narrative of political speeches. And some of the local Channels and the SF Chronicle gave the event good coverage. I think the American street is come alive - helpfully driven by Internet info delivered independent of the big media. To that end I encourage people to write the NY Times and redirect their blinded attentions. I wrote the following to the editors, as their web site does invite us: Dear Editors: I have appreciated Thomas Friedman's pieces that pay attention - in the case of an Iraqi invasion - to the regional, if not also global, terrorist perils latent in both the "Arab Street" and "The Arab Basement." In light of yesterday's enormous cross-country demonstrations against a war in Iraq, I hope that Mr. Friedman can turn his ear to the "American Street". It should be clear to anyone that is listening (and clearly this Administration is not) that the Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld-Wolflitz drive towards an Iraq war is already faced with a deep internal and popular opposition. Indeed, I suggest, ignoring this internal opposition will further put this Administration's Iraqi agenda at risk of an even greater domestic rebellion and disaster. Thank you, Stephen Vincent on 10/28/02 8:56 AM, MAXINE CHERNOFF at maxpaul@SFSU.EDU wrote: > I always thought that people should be given numbered placards at > demonstrations so that the press would have to report an accurate #. > > On Mon, 28 Oct 2002, Paul Stephens wrote: > >> Here a few selections from the NY Times' four pieces on poetry and poets in >> the last two days (during which time the paper also endorsed George Pataki >> for governor). Apparently, to be a Republican is now to be considered a >> priori apolitical. >> >> (According to a friend who went to the D.C. anti-war protests this weekend, >> the Times, as usual, grossly under-reported the turnout.) >> >> Note the rhetoric of bipartisanship at work in the absolute certitude of the >> Hemingwayesque sentences: "His poetry is not political" and "His criticism, >> essays and reviews are not polemical." >> >> 1. On Dana Gioia (a "calm fit" for the NEA): >> >> At least at first glance, Dana Gioia, who was proposed by the White House >> last week, seems to be a shoo-in. He is a writer with a background as a >> businessman. He is a registered Republican who voted for George W. Bush and >> for his father before that. His poetry is not political. His criticism, >> essays and reviews are not polemical. Rather, Mr. Gioia (pronounced JOY-a) >> appears to be someone with a wide range of artistic and intellectual >> interests who is passionate about making poetry more accessible to the >> public. >> >> 2. On Albert Mobilio: >> >> Postmodern poets make much of the value of difficulty. Arcane, fragmentarty >> writing encourages active reading, they argue, by forcing the reader to >> supply the missing material. "Thinking becomes the only way out," Creeley >> writes in Mobilio's poetry in the same cover blurb. This is a convenient >> stance for poets to take because it acquits them of any responsibility for >> the failings of their poems: it's the reader's fault for not working hard >> enough. >> >> But the work is thankless, at least in the case of the most radical poetry, >> because there's "no stake," as Glyn Maxwell has pointed out, in achieving "a >> speculatively coherent rendering of someone else's willed incoherence." >> >> 3. "And Bear in Mind": >> >> Mini-Review of Billy Collins' newest book. >> >> 4. "New and Noteworthy Paper Backs": >> >> Mini-Review of Billy Collins' selected poems. >> ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 10:11:50 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Small Press Traffic Subject: Buuck & Farrell at SPT Friday 11/1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Friday, November 1, 2002 at 7:30 pm David Buuck & Dan Farrell Prose hybridist, musician, critic, and editor David Buuck is the author of up the flagpoles (Melodeon Poetry Systems, 1999). His creative work has appeared in Narrativity, Object, and Arras; critical work in Jouvert: A Journal of PostColonial Studies, Outlet, Research in African Literatures and Traffic. He is one of the founding editors of Tripwire, a journal of poetics, a West Coast venue for literary, artistic, and political discussions and intersections in our time. He has been an Artist-in-Residence at Headlands Center for the Arts and is currently studying in the History of Consciousness Program at UC Santa Cruz. Dan Farrell?s many books include The Inkblot Record (Coach House Press, 2001), (Untitled Epic Poem on the History of Industrialization by R. Buckminster Fuller, pp. 1-50) Grid (Meow Press, 1999), and Last Instance (Krupskaya, 1999), which Nancy Shaw says "poses the relations between social reproduction and expression through stuttering, mocking, and sutured acts of composition. [Farrell?s] poetic strategies clash and mingle with the social instigating transpositions at the level of the letter, syntactical order, and semantic sensibility." Originally from British Columbia, Farrell currently lives in San Francisco. All events are $5-10, sliding scale, unless otherwise noted. Our events are free to SPT members, and CCAC faculty, staff, and students. Unless otherwise noted, our events are presented in Timken Lecture Hall California College of Arts and Crafts 1111 Eighth Street, San Francisco (just off the intersection of 16th & Wisconsin) ---------------------------------------------------------- Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson, Executive Director Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center at CCAC 1111 - 8th Street San Francisco, California 94107 http://www.sptraffic.org 415-551-9278 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 13:22:08 -0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Heller Subject: Typo on way to the Midwest Comments: cc: UKPOETRY@LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU, poetryetc@jiscmail.ac.uk, British-Poets@jiscmail.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed On the Oppen panel, that's Rachel Blau DuPlessis (not "DePlessis"). Sorry Rachel. And apologies again for the cross-posting. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 13:28:33 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Official Verse on the Rise In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" lovely At 9:42 AM -0800 10/28/02, Stephen Vincent wrote: >The NY Times almost absolute dismissal of numbers at the DC demonstration - >the CNN web site even reported that it was over a 100,000 and possibly the >largest ever - is mind boggling. Other than being titillated by the vision >of General Tommy Franks as Bush's first "live-in-Iraq" satrap, to my perhaps >limited knowledge, the Times has not expressed an outright editorial >commitment to an invasion (unilateral or otherwise). >So I don't know why they should ignore demonstrations across the country, >nor why they ignore innovative poetry on one hand and, to a degree, embrace >cutting edge visual arts on the other. (Gallery Ads support the art pages, >where innovative small press ads are mostly non-existent in the Book Review >is perhaps the real answer.) >Where I walked in San Francisco, the visuals (signs), and street theater >were lively and wonderful. A Berkley Bakery collective paraded with raised >Peace symbols made out of baguettes. (I like the idea of eating Peace). Then >there was, "It's Osama, stupid." And finally the most outer-edge placard >read: >Vegan Lesbian >Transgender Punk >Epidemiologist >(With a big red heart painted under the words). > >And there was the low key undecipherable chants of small groups of wiccans >under the narrative of political speeches. > >And some of the local Channels and the SF Chronicle gave the event good >coverage. > >I think the American street is come alive - helpfully driven by Internet >info delivered independent of the big media. To that end I encourage people >to write the NY Times and redirect their blinded attentions. I wrote the >following to the editors, as their web site does invite us: > >Dear Editors: >I have appreciated Thomas Friedman's pieces that pay attention - in the case >of an Iraqi invasion - to the regional, if not also global, terrorist >perils latent in both the "Arab Street" and "The Arab Basement." >In light of yesterday's enormous cross-country demonstrations against a war >in Iraq, I hope that Mr. Friedman can turn his ear to the "American Street". >It should be clear to anyone that is listening (and clearly this >Administration is not) that the Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld-Wolflitz drive towards >an Iraq war is already faced with a deep internal and popular opposition. >Indeed, I suggest, ignoring this internal opposition will further put this >Administration's Iraqi agenda at risk of an even greater domestic rebellion >and disaster. >Thank you, >Stephen Vincent > > > > > > >on 10/28/02 8:56 AM, MAXINE CHERNOFF at maxpaul@SFSU.EDU wrote: > > > I always thought that people should be given numbered placards at >> demonstrations so that the press would have to report an accurate #. >> >> On Mon, 28 Oct 2002, Paul Stephens wrote: >> >>> Here a few selections from the NY Times' four pieces on poetry and poets in >>> the last two days (during which time the paper also endorsed George Pataki >>> for governor). Apparently, to be a Republican is now to be considered a >>> priori apolitical. >>> >>> (According to a friend who went to the D.C. anti-war protests this weekend, >>> the Times, as usual, grossly under-reported the turnout.) >>> >>> Note the rhetoric of bipartisanship at work in the absolute >>>certitude of the >>> Hemingwayesque sentences: "His poetry is not political" and "His criticism, >>> essays and reviews are not polemical." >>> >>> 1. On Dana Gioia (a "calm fit" for the NEA): >>> >>> At least at first glance, Dana Gioia, who was proposed by the White House >>> last week, seems to be a shoo-in. He is a writer with a background as a >>> businessman. He is a registered Republican who voted for George W. Bush and >>> for his father before that. His poetry is not political. His criticism, >>> essays and reviews are not polemical. Rather, Mr. Gioia (pronounced JOY-a) >>> appears to be someone with a wide range of artistic and intellectual >>> interests who is passionate about making poetry more accessible to the > >> public. >>> >>> 2. On Albert Mobilio: >>> >>> Postmodern poets make much of the value of difficulty. Arcane, >>>fragmentarty >>> writing encourages active reading, they argue, by forcing the reader to >>> supply the missing material. "Thinking becomes the only way out," Creeley >>> writes in Mobilio's poetry in the same cover blurb. This is a convenient >>> stance for poets to take because it acquits them of any responsibility for >>> the failings of their poems: it's the reader's fault for not working hard >>> enough. >>> >>> But the work is thankless, at least in the case of the most radical poetry, >>> because there's "no stake," as Glyn Maxwell has pointed out, in >>>achieving "a >>> speculatively coherent rendering of someone else's willed incoherence." >>> >>> 3. "And Bear in Mind": >>> >>> Mini-Review of Billy Collins' newest book. >>> >>> 4. "New and Noteworthy Paper Backs": >>> >>> Mini-Review of Billy Collins' selected poems. >>> -- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 13:33:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: poem Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Easy Bake and Shake Oh how smurfy things once were how Might we once again get Smurfy? Past bizzare disasters and Our freakouts Overreact to All riots and Lying, while secretly *Thrilled* with the juice from these Dangers You've slept with your therapist, I've slept with Your therapist, and the pizza guy But what's important is Growing old Quickly Get kinetic in your descriptions, Feet filled with quicksand, concrete, hydrogen Spill out into the streets to Placate Take candy and Advice from the strangest Propelled forward By their willingness to sow Confusion The pyros have left us Alone, while the town Blooms to a Regal crisp and Bake-off Feel my hands, and your hands, that Guy's hands all climbing Onto places you never knew you Possessed Jump to a paralyzing Conclusion for once, Break Apart and Be glued to another perfect Match Nothing from here down _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 13:39:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: poem Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Go Ask I like you better as a Pixilated nightmare Shine on you crazy Shepherd, and carry your minions once again Away from Thorns And toward misdemeanors Bring all your pals to Hear the cranky Senator twirl Mascara clouds your edge, trickling into think Tanks and forums that Respond viciously to androgynies Acts of War feel naughtier than they have in Years sorry, it's a secret, How to become this Empowered the *skills* required to break Thru with Cheerleaders And unconscious transactions of Lust summon Shouts and whistles Elsewhere in barren towns Integrity plays in double Features Fuck it all to Hell, if that's an option Or breeze through the Calmest of States You have forgotten how to Dance and sing such a Shame To repel Hosts Praise the Horde _________________________________________________________________ Unlimited Internet access for only $21.95/month. Try MSN! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/2monthsfree.asp ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 12:51:06 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: Re: poem about g In-Reply-To: <20021025193734.22874.qmail@web10503.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Anthony, are you okay? This was kind of scary -- and possibly a little creepy -- but I'm guessing it's meant to be a what, a -- tender? homage?? At 12:37 PM 10/25/2002 -0700, you wrote: >Gabriel Gudding is in my ass. >Yes, the minor poet Gabriel Gudding has set up >residence >In my butt. He seems more major than minor, >Especially when I sit down. >Gabriel Gudding the minor poet never answers >My emails or phonecalls. He says it's too dark in my >ass, >And besides, I am sub-minor poet. I once had drinks >With Kent Johnson, but I don't remember what he looked >like. >After three martinis, Kent said "Say, is that Gabe >Gudding >Poking out of your ass?" I said 'No, that's a turtle >head." >It was Gabe Gudding, though. He had written new poems. >I was shitting out Gabe Gudding instead of his poems. >One day when I was extremely bored, I wrote a poem >For the minor poet in my ass. It was an extremely >minor poem >But it included sodomy and rape and wine, things we >should >Think about more often. Sometimes when I'm feeling >wistful >I think about the time Gabriel Gudding took me to the >prom, >And I feel a little sorry that he is ensconced in my >rectum. >After all, we had a great time. The punch was boffo, >And the DJ played all the hottest hits, and Gabe's >wife >Was looking dynamite. I was at the prom with Gabe >And his wife and Gabe was not in my butt. We >discussed >Poetry and I licked the underside of his fetlock. >I was very embarassed. I said, "I condemn thee to my >ass, >Gabriel Gudding," and that was the last time I saw >him. > > >__________________________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site >http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ Gabriel Gudding Assistant Professor Department of English Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 office 309.438.5284 home 309.828.8377 http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 13:55:30 -0500 Reply-To: kevinkillian@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "kevinkillian@earthlink.net" Subject: Advice sought MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi everyone, Does anyone out there know more than I about permissions? Here's the deal= , I want to use a still, actually a video capture, on the cover of my next book=2E It's a still from an old 40s movie made by 20th Century Fox=2E C= an I just use it? Or do I have to get permission and if so, from whom and how?= =20 I feel like such an ignoramus asking these questions of you all, but if anyone knows the answers, I'd be oh so grateful and appreciative=2E -- Kevin Killian, San Francisco, CA (USA) -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 15:30:43 -0330 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K.Angelo Hehir" Subject: Monthly Reading Monday, Nov. 4/02 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII st. john's, newfoundland WANL is pleased to announce that Terence Young will be the featured reader for the Monthly Reading Series at 8:00 p.m. on Monday, Nov. 4, 2002 at the LSPU Hall Art Gallery. Terence resides in B.C. where he teaches Creative Writing and English at St. Michael's University school. He is also co-editor of The Claremont Review, a literary magazine he helped to create to promote the work of young writers. Terence writes poetry and short stories and has numerous piece of work published in anthologies and literary journals. He has also had his work published in book form and has been short-listed for a number of major awards. His short story book, Rhymes with Useless, was short-listed for the 2000 Danuta Gleed Short Fiction Award, while his poetry book, The Island in Winter, was nominatd for the 2000 Gerald Lampert Award for Poetry, and the 1999 Governor General's Award for Poetry. He also published a chapbook in 1996, Fooling Ourselves. Patricia Young, Writer in Residence at MUN this fall, and Terence are husband and wife. Please mark your calendar for this event and join us at the Hall for a great evening. Open mic after Terence's reading for anyone who would like to try out a short piece of work on an appreciative audience. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 14:04:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Administration Subject: FICTION JOB AT UMASS, AMHERST (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Creative Writing (Fiction) Search Department of English University of Massachusetts Amherst Creative Writing (Fiction). Assistant Professor, tenure track, to begin Fall, 2003. To offer instruction in M.F.A. Fiction Workshops and in Modern and Contemporary Fiction on the graduate and undergraduate level, and to serve on M.F.A. thesis committees. Active participation in the Department is expected as is willingness to participate in administrative tasks within the M.F.A. program. Candidates must have published fiction in journals and at least one novel or collection of short stories, and demonstrated excellence in teaching. Salary commensurate with qualifications. Priority deadline is November 15, 2002. Send applications (dossier, three letters of recommendation, vita, sample of written work) to Anne Herrington, Chair, Department of English, Bartlett Hall, Box 30515, University of Massachusetts, Amherst MA 01003-0515. Women and members of minority groups are encouraged to apply. The University of Massachusetts is an Affirmative Action/Equal Opportunity Employer. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 14:28:26 -0500 Reply-To: cartograffiti@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "cartograffiti@mindspring.com" Subject: Re: Advice sought MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kevin, One publisher I can think of who has some experience with this is Lyn Hejinian -- I remember a conversation with her about Atelos seeking permission from Jim Jarmusch and Johnny Depp to use a still from "Dead Man= " for the cover of Jean Day's book=2E (If I recall correctly, pricing had something to do with the fact that the cover shows the back of Depp's head= rather than a frontal or profile shot, but I could be wrong on that)=2E Leslie Scalapino also used a photo of a Joseph Cornell box on the cover of= Lisa Samuels' book, but I don't know how similar the permissions process i= s for art reproductions as compared to film stills=2E Taylor Original Message: ----------------- From: kevinkillian@earthlink=2Enet kevinkillian@EARTHLINK=2ENET Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 13:55:30 -0500 To: POETICS@LISTSERV=2EBUFFALO=2EEDU Subject: Advice sought Hi everyone, Does anyone out there know more than I about permissions? Here's the deal= , I want to use a still, actually a video capture, on the cover of my next book=2E It's a still from an old 40s movie made by 20th Century Fox=2E C= an I just use it? Or do I have to get permission and if so, from whom and how?= =20 I feel like such an ignoramus asking these questions of you all, but if anyone knows the answers, I'd be oh so grateful and appreciative=2E -- Kevin Killian, San Francisco, CA (USA) -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 12:33:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: Advice sought In-Reply-To: <119420-2200210128185530263@M2W075.mail2web.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" kevin, someone probably owns it... recall that frank capra was too sick to renew ~it's a wonderful life~, so that film is, i believe, public domain... but likely not the case here... try this: Fox Intellectual Property Department (310) 369-4260 antipiracy@fox.com best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 15:08:48 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: "all best" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron, You make me so self-conscious and embarrassed. Best. Murat In a message dated 10/28/02 11:53:44 AM, aaron@BELZ.NET writes: >Why do all academics and most writers sign their emails "all best"? I >had >never heard this phrase before entering academia/acapoetics. What does >it >mean, and does anyone know who first thought of it? > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 15:22:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: Re: "all best" In-Reply-To: <50.140da2e9.2aeef350@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >I confess that I inadvertently began this usage some decades ago when I >thoughtlessly copied an email to a Tunisian friend to the whole poetics >list. (Y'all know how that happens.) My North African colleagues, like >Alan Golding unable to pronounce my first name ("Aldon"), had taken to >addressing me as "Al' B'yest" -- My bad typing of this ceremonial >pseudonym at the close of my accidental poetics post was taken by my dear >friend Maria Damon as a more expansive version of her "Bests" -- I >apologize to all for any harm I may have done -- you guys really are the >Bests Generation writers -- everything is good, al'd'juon the prefix <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "The university professes the truth, and that is its profession. It declares and promises an unlimited commitment to the truth." Jacques Derrida (Without Alibi 202) Aldon Lynn Nielsen George and Barbara Kelly Professor of American Literature Department of English The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 15:40:12 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mfranco34@AOL.COM Subject: AGNI Reading in Boston MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit AGNI Magazine to celebrate 30th Anniversary on Wednesday, October 30th, 8:00 p.m., at Boston University with readings by 14 prominent poets, including Nobel Laureate Seamus Heaney and ex-U.S. Poet Laureate Robert Pinsky, plus a special 30th Anniversary Anthology. On Wednesday, October 30th at 8:00 p.m. at Boston University's Metcalf Center (590 Commonwealth Ave., Rm. 107; Green Line T: Kenmore or Blandford St. stops; entrance on right side of building), AGNI Magazine will celebrate its 30th anniversary--as well as the changing of the guard in editors as Sven Birkerts takes over from Founding Editor Askold Melnyczuk--with a reading by fourteen local poets including William Corbett, Diana Der-Hovanessian, Stuart Dischell, Sharon Dunn, Michael Franco, Seamus Heaney, Fred Marchant, Gail Mazur, Dzvinia Orlowsky, Robert Pinsky, David Rivard, Lloyd Schwartz, Tom Sleigh, and, last but certainly not least, Rosanna Warren. Cost is $15 ($5 with student ID). All are welcome. Also available at the reading, at a discounted price, will be AGNI 56, a 480-page anthology of some of the best poetry in AGNI since its inception in 1972. The last edited by Founding Editor Melnyczuk, the issue will include one poem by each of 243 poets (a number of them translations), among them Derek Walcott, Seamus Heaney, Wislawa Szymborska, Joseph Brodsky, Adrienne Rich, Odysseas Elytis, Rita Dove, Eugenio Montale, and Ai. Fronted by an original lithograph by Ellen Driscoll, AGNI 56 comprises a landmark compendium of the energy and scope of American poets and translators over the past three decades. The occasion also marks the informal and unofficial "passing of the torch" from Melnyczuk to new Editor Birkerts, renowned literary critic and author of numerous books, including the seminal The Gutenberg Elegies: The Fate of Reading in an Electronic Age as well as a new memoir, My Sky Blue Trades: Growing up Counter in a Contrary Time. For further information, or to inquire about a special fundraising cocktail party with the poets prior to the reading, contact Managing Editor Eric Grunwald at (617) 353-7135. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 13:02:50 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew Rathmann Subject: Re: NY Times on Mobilio In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I share the feeling that McHenry's review relies too much on a few stock responses intended to reassure the complacent, but I think it should be pointed out that it does contain praise, too. More importantly, he quotes at some length and includes both "good" and "bad" specimens, which means that he wants to give his readers a chance to see for themselves. This is something that Poetics-List-style reviewers generally do not do often enough -- maybe because they themselves don't know which lines are good and bad in a given book. I also question these assertions by Jordan Davis (while agreeing with him in general): >Second thought: Eric McHenry. Who that? Who cares? The review is stimulating or it isn't. We don't need to ask for his credentials. >Fourth thought: Pity McHenry! There no literature on Albert to draw from, >the way one does with literary journalism on say Simic or Auden. And how >would he know unless we initiated him how to get to the writers he'd need >to have read to start to get AM: Coolidge, Gizzi, Yau, Olson, Trakl, >Chandler, Cain, Dale Herd. Don't writers deserve to be read -- and evaluated -- on their own terms? If I were a partisan of Gioia, let's say, I could make a similar charge: you haven't been initiated into Merrill, Howard, Hollander, Hecht, Seth, Steele, etc., etc. -- so you just don't get it. No one should dictate who counts as an "informed" reviewer -- often the uninformed do the best job. >Fifth thought: Screw McHenry! A google search on Albert Mobilio yields 312 >cites, just about all of which point to the man. McHenry had a visible >assignment and couldn't find the cheat sheet in time so he played the >"huh?" card. "Huh?" should worry poets more than it does. The reason it doesn't is that too many readers are afraid to say it: they prefer the kind of knowing silence that visitors to modern art museums cloak their incomprehension in. >Send McHenry your books c/o the Times. Not a bad idea -- but also give Dana Gioia's book a serious review in the next issue of Jacket. Dismissal-in-lieu-of-analysis cuts both ways. Andy ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 16:23:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: 3' poems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII 3' poems i know a man see before his me, face, i it have looms sutured before the me, throat, have see sutured his the face, throat, it returned friend, soul, is he so is very our good friend, - so the very soul, good he - is will will save help many him, others, i help eyes, him, he restore save eyes, others, they they are are full full of of life, life, love love hearing, his hear been plans i been his dismissed, hearing, world i peace, prison release his him world from is every a prison world feed a and comfortable nourish place make live comfortable i place feed to and live nourish sleep, make offer and best flourishes drink my food, - flourishes him with the my best kindness of be life, servant, will bring - back will just helped as others, has kindness helped knows knows just no as bounds, he everything has about speaks about given our us humanity, lives eliminates humanity, he eliminates given evil us corruption he everywhere speaks in in world, name name everywhere humility the perfection, his speech, will heal sooth sooth will myself useful make unto myself this is man, man an miracles unknown - who is worketh a miracles man, i know a man see his face, it looms before me, have sutured the throat, returned soul, he is our friend, so very good - will save many others, help him, restore eyes, they are full of life, love hearing, hear plans been dismissed, world peace, release him from every prison feed and nourish make comfortable place to live sleep, offer best drink food, flourishes with my kindness be servant, bring back just as has helped knows no bounds, everything about speaks given us lives humanity, eliminates evil corruption everywhere in world, name humility perfection, speech, heal sooth myself useful unto this man, an unknown who worketh miracles i know a man i see his face, it looms before me, i have sutured the throat, have returned the soul, he is our friend, he is so very good - he will save many others, i will help him, i restore his eyes, they are full of life, they love - i restore his hearing, he will hear his plans have been dismissed, his world is a world of peace, i release him from every prison - i feed and nourish him, make him a comfortable place to live and sleep, offer him the best of drink and food, he flourishes with my kindness - i will be his servant, i will bring him back to life, i will help him - just as he has helped others, his kindness knows no bounds, everything about him speaks of good - he has given us our lives and our humanity, he eliminates evil and corruption everywhere in the world, he speaks in the name of humility and perfection, i will restore his speech, heal him, i will sooth him, make myself useful unto him - this is a man, this is an unknown man who worketh miracles - === ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 17:08:47 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charlotte Mandel Subject: More readings in Madison MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'll be reading also at the MSA Conference in Madison, WI. Here is the full schedule of evening readings: Friday, November 1, 8:30-10:15 pm 1. Kathleen Fraser 2. Marjorie Welish 3. Fanny Howe 4. Leonard Orr, Washington State University 5. Charlotte Mandel, Barnard College Center for Research on Women -Sight Lines, a collection of poems -The Life of Mary, a poem-novella -The Marriages of Jacob, a poem-novella 6. Kenneth Sherwood, University of Texas of the Permian Basin -Chapbooks: That Risk (Meow Press); Text2Box (Tailspin Press) -Poems in: XCP, Chain, Mudlark, LINEbreak, and RIF/T 7. R. M. Berry, Florida State University -Dictionary of Modern Anguish, short fiction (FC2: 2000) -Leonardo's Horse, a novel (FC2: 1997) -Plane Geometry and Other Affairs of the Heart, short fiction (The Fiction Collective: 1985) Saturday, November 2, 8:30-10:30 pm 1. Michael Heller 2. Lyn Hejinian 3. Vinay Dhwardwarkar 4. Bill Kupinse, University of Tulsa 5. Carol V. Hamilton, Carnegie Mellon University -Recent Poems published in Paris Review, North American Review, and Salmagundi 6. Garry Leonard, University of Toronto -Proxy, a novel -Scorpio Running, a collection of poetry 7. Alicia Ostriker, Rutgers University -The Volcano Sequence (U of Pittsburgh Press, 2002) -The Little Space: New and Selected Poems (Pittsburgh 1998) -Dancing at the Devil's party: Essays on Poetry, Politics, and the Erotic (U of Michigan Press, 2000) 8. Catherine Hoyser, Saint Joseph College, West Hartford, CT ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 16:39:07 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: More readings in Madison In-Reply-To: <10c.19a09368.2aef0f6f@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v543) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I had heard a rumor that Bob Perelman & Alan Golding are doing a seminar. what are the details on that? mIEKAL On Monday, October 28, 2002, at 04:08 PM, Charlotte Mandel wrote: > I'll be reading also at the MSA Conference in Madison, WI. Here is the > full > schedule of evening readings: > > Friday, November 1, 8:30-10:15 pm > > 1. Kathleen Fraser > 2. Marjorie Welish > 3. Fanny Howe > 4. Leonard Orr, Washington State University > 5. Charlotte Mandel, Barnard College Center for Research on Women > -Sight Lines, a collection of poems > -The Life of Mary, a poem-novella > -The Marriages of Jacob, a poem-novella > 6. Kenneth Sherwood, University of Texas of the Permian Basin > -Chapbooks: That Risk (Meow Press); Text2Box (Tailspin Press) > -Poems in: XCP, Chain, Mudlark, LINEbreak, and RIF/T > 7. R. M. Berry, Florida State University > -Dictionary of Modern Anguish, short fiction (FC2: 2000) > -Leonardo's Horse, a novel (FC2: 1997) > -Plane Geometry and Other Affairs of the Heart, short fiction > (The > Fiction Collective: 1985) > > Saturday, November 2, 8:30-10:30 pm > > 1. Michael Heller > 2. Lyn Hejinian > 3. Vinay Dhwardwarkar > 4. Bill Kupinse, University of Tulsa > 5. Carol V. Hamilton, Carnegie Mellon University > -Recent Poems published in Paris Review, North American > Review, and > Salmagundi > 6. Garry Leonard, University of Toronto > -Proxy, a novel > -Scorpio Running, a collection of poetry > 7. Alicia Ostriker, Rutgers University > -The Volcano Sequence (U of Pittsburgh Press, 2002) > -The Little Space: New and Selected Poems (Pittsburgh 1998) > -Dancing at the Devil's party: Essays on Poetry, Politics, and > the > Erotic (U of Michigan Press, 2000) > 8. Catherine Hoyser, Saint Joseph College, West Hartford, CT > > mIEKAL aND memexikon@mwt.net | ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 19:22:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: My Home Pages Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Over the summer and since I have added a number of items to my home page at the EPC, including new sound and video files: http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/bernstein/ Take a look! Charles Bernstein ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 18:58:14 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Meyer Subject: Gertrude Stein review Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You can find a really fine review of my book IRRESISTIBLE DICTATION: GERTRUDE STEIN AND THE CORRELATIONS OF WRITING AND SCIENCE (Stanford, 2001) at the following website: http://bostonreview.mit.edu/BR27.5/wineapple.html To view it you'll need Netscape 6.2 or Explorer 5.0. Netscape 4.7 won't fly. Take the plunge. Steven Meyer ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 17:06:08 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Starr Subject: Topography of the Jar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I've posted my first digital work (completed this summer) at http://www.eskimo.com/~rstarr/work/topography/ It's an on-line version of a piece that appeared in the Northwest Visual and Concrete Poetry Exhibition 2002 at the OSEAO gallery in Seattle this last spring. - Ron Starr--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------ "I'm interested in means, not meanings." - Heather McHugh ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 14:17:22 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: poem about g MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Doesnt look very good: looks like some of the cross between the NY poets and the Beats stuff....mostly I like this poet but this looks "disturbed" ...maybe I dont know enough. Or hepoet was drinking and reading Dante's "Inferno". Richard Taylor. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gabriel Gudding" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 7:51 AM Subject: Re: poem about g > Anthony, are you okay? > > This was kind of scary -- and possibly a little creepy -- but I'm guessing > it's meant to be a what, a -- tender? homage?? > > At 12:37 PM 10/25/2002 -0700, you wrote: > >Gabriel Gudding is in my ass. > >Yes, the minor poet Gabriel Gudding has set up > >residence > >In my butt. He seems more major than minor, > >Especially when I sit down. > >Gabriel Gudding the minor poet never answers > >My emails or phonecalls. He says it's too dark in my > >ass, > >And besides, I am sub-minor poet. I once had drinks > >With Kent Johnson, but I don't remember what he looked > >like. > >After three martinis, Kent said "Say, is that Gabe > >Gudding > >Poking out of your ass?" I said 'No, that's a turtle > >head." > >It was Gabe Gudding, though. He had written new poems. > >I was shitting out Gabe Gudding instead of his poems. > >One day when I was extremely bored, I wrote a poem > >For the minor poet in my ass. It was an extremely > >minor poem > >But it included sodomy and rape and wine, things we > >should > >Think about more often. Sometimes when I'm feeling > >wistful > >I think about the time Gabriel Gudding took me to the > >prom, > >And I feel a little sorry that he is ensconced in my > >rectum. > >After all, we had a great time. The punch was boffo, > >And the DJ played all the hottest hits, and Gabe's > >wife > >Was looking dynamite. I was at the prom with Gabe > >And his wife and Gabe was not in my butt. We > >discussed > >Poetry and I licked the underside of his fetlock. > >I was very embarassed. I said, "I condemn thee to my > >ass, > >Gabriel Gudding," and that was the last time I saw > >him. > > > > > >__________________________________________________ > >Do you Yahoo!? > >Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site > >http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ > > Gabriel Gudding > Assistant Professor > Department of English > Illinois State University > Normal, IL 61790 > office 309.438.5284 > home 309.828.8377 > > http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 20:29:49 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charlotte Mandel Subject: Re: More readings in Madison MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The full Thurs to Sun Conference Program is available at http://msa.press.jhu.edu/ Best, C ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 17:15:24 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: Re: Mr. B In-Reply-To: <200210270448.g9R4m8O21406@beasley.concentric.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit So it's down to my shirt, is it? My shirt is what I lost when Bromelius and Blowfly sold me that worthless language poetry claim in the Yukon. That's why they go on and on about philosophers whose names they cannot spell. Well, wake up and smell the maple syrup. As quick as you can say "John George Diefenbaker" there'll be guys in red serge tunics and Stetsons at the door. And the only shirts for B&B will be striped ones. Rachel L. > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of dcmb > Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2002 9:57 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Mr. B > > > What a pretty picture....the female instructor, wearing only > a handsome > man's shirt, teaching 20th Century philosophy to the eager > Bowering, who > sprawls at her feet, looking intently up. > But it is clearly a fantasy. The woman in question would > not spell the > German philosopher's name the way you,o Corrector of > Spelling, spell it. > If you are without sin, as you claim, you are not without > error. And Rachel > is not without honor. DB > -----Original Message----- > From: George Bowering > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Date: Saturday, October 26, 2002 12:51 AM > Subject: Re: Mr. B > > > >>I didnt ~prefer~your shirts, Geo. They were all that were > left for me to > >>wear,in that indifferent climate,and where fashion counts > for nowt, after > >>you had micturated on my own. I sccepted your apology the > next morning. > Why > >>do you go on and on about this unseemly incident? It > couldnnt be that you > >>are protecting someone--name of Rachel, perhaps? Bromms > > > >Okay, okay. But I will tell you one thing, Broomstick. She looks a > >lot better in your shirt than you ever did. And she knows more about > >Husserl and his feelings about Heiddegar. > >-- > >George Bowering > >Free of sin. > >Fax 604-266-9000 > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 18:36:23 -0800 Reply-To: antrobin@clipper.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anthony Robinson Subject: disturbing poem about gabe gudding In-Reply-To: <005901c27ee8$ef4cdea0$a57d37d2@01397384> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Gabe--now, now...are you trying to provoke discussion of your ass and poems containing it--are you simply stirring the pot, so to speak? Your backchannel to me seemed, if not approving, cordial enough. But the accusation that I am "disturbed" seems rather odd coming from a man who writes poems about a peacock's rectum and poems that implore the return of his butt. In any case, last Friday, I sat down in a comfy chair and read your book. All the poems about asses got me thinking about what it would be like if Gabe Gudding lived inside an ass...in this case, mine. And I always like to put Kent Johnson in my poems whenever possible. I assure you (and you too, Richard) that I am fine. Kent Johnson found it rather funny...admittedly, I didn't suggest that he was in my ass...I merely suggested that he liked to drink martinis. So, if harm was done, I apologize...but I'm a tad bit puzzled at being labeled "disturbed." And no, I was neither drunk nor reading Dante at the time I composed the poem. I was sober, it was mid-day, and I had just finished reading some rousing good and funny Gudding poems. And yes, Gabe, you might call it an homage...Tender? Nah. But you were the inspiration. Best, Tony --- "richard.tylr" wrote: > Doesnt look very good: looks like some of the cross > between the NY poets > and the Beats stuff....mostly I like this poet but > this looks "disturbed" > ...maybe I dont know enough. Or hepoet was drinking > and reading Dante's > "Inferno". Richard Taylor. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gabriel Gudding" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 7:51 AM > Subject: Re: poem about g > > > > Anthony, are you okay? > > > > This was kind of scary -- and possibly a little > creepy -- but I'm guessing > > it's meant to be a what, a -- tender? homage?? > > > > At 12:37 PM 10/25/2002 -0700, you wrote: > > >Gabriel Gudding is in my ass. > > >Yes, the minor poet Gabriel Gudding has set up > > >residence > > >In my butt. He seems more major than minor, > > >Especially when I sit down. > > >Gabriel Gudding the minor poet never answers > > >My emails or phonecalls. He says it's too dark in > my > > >ass, > > >And besides, I am sub-minor poet. I once had > drinks > > >With Kent Johnson, but I don't remember what he > looked > > >like. > > >After three martinis, Kent said "Say, is that > Gabe > > >Gudding > > >Poking out of your ass?" I said 'No, that's a > turtle > > >head." > > >It was Gabe Gudding, though. He had written new > poems. > > >I was shitting out Gabe Gudding instead of his > poems. > > >One day when I was extremely bored, I wrote a > poem > > >For the minor poet in my ass. It was an extremely > > >minor poem > > >But it included sodomy and rape and wine, things > we > > >should > > >Think about more often. Sometimes when I'm > feeling > > >wistful > > >I think about the time Gabriel Gudding took me to > the > > >prom, > > >And I feel a little sorry that he is ensconced in > my > > >rectum. > > >After all, we had a great time. The punch was > boffo, > > >And the DJ played all the hottest hits, and > Gabe's > > >wife > > >Was looking dynamite. I was at the prom with > Gabe > > >And his wife and Gabe was not in my butt. We > > >discussed > > >Poetry and I licked the underside of his fetlock. > > >I was very embarassed. I said, "I condemn thee > to my > > >ass, > > >Gabriel Gudding," and that was the last time I > saw > > >him. > > > > > > > > > >__________________________________________________ > > >Do you Yahoo!? > > >Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web > site > > >http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ > > > > Gabriel Gudding > > Assistant Professor > > Department of English > > Illinois State University > > Normal, IL 61790 > > office 309.438.5284 > > home 309.828.8377 > > > > http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 20:51:09 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: travis ortiz Subject: Re: Advice sought In-Reply-To: <293580-2200210128192826416@M2W076.mail2web.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hey kevin, yes, atelos used a still from jim jarmusch's film dead man for jean day's book, _the literal world_. if i remember correctly, we contacted jim jarmusch's office and told them what we wanted to do with the still -- i.e. we wanted to put it on the cover of the book. they were really great about it and actually sent us one of their (big) laser discs for us to pull the still from. first, though, we had to contact johnny depp and ask his permission too. we were put in contact with johnny's personal assistant, bruce. he was very nice too. everyone agreed that we could use the image of the back of johnny depp's head for the sole purpose of printing it on the cover. we had to agree not to use any other images from the film or of johnny depp. our "payment" to both johnny depp and jim jarmusch was two copies of the book to each of them. that was their request. we get permission for all the images we use on our covers actually. generally it's pretty easy, and most people are very agreeable. i think the only time we actually had to pay someone to use an image was when we used the great rodchenko photograph that is on the cover of leslie scalapino's book _r-hu_. some museum in germany owns the photo that we used and charged us about $100 -- i think. so, i'd suggest getting in touch with 20th century fox and seeing who handles permissions over there. i imagine it will work out rather nicely for you. good luck, travis > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of > cartograffiti@mindspring.com > Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 11:28 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Advice sought > > > Kevin, > > One publisher I can think of who has some experience with > this is Lyn Hejinian -- I remember a conversation with her > about Atelos seeking permission from Jim Jarmusch and Johnny > Depp to use a still from "Dead Man" for the cover of Jean > Day's book. (If I recall correctly, pricing had something to > do with the fact that the cover shows the back of Depp's head > rather than a frontal or profile shot, but I could be wrong on that). > > Leslie Scalapino also used a photo of a Joseph Cornell box on > the cover of Lisa Samuels' book, but I don't know how similar > the permissions process is for art reproductions as compared > to film stills. > > Taylor > > Original Message: > ----------------- > From: kevinkillian@earthlink.net kevinkillian@EARTHLINK.NET > Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 13:55:30 -0500 > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Advice sought > > > Hi everyone, > > Does anyone out there know more than I about permissions? > Here's the deal, I want to use a still, actually a video > capture, on the cover of my next book. It's a still from an > old 40s movie made by 20th Century Fox. Can I just use it? > Or do I have to get permission and if so, from whom and how? > I feel like such an ignoramus asking these questions of you > all, but if anyone knows the answers, I'd be oh so grateful > and appreciative. > > -- Kevin Killian, San Francisco, CA (USA) > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 22:05:15 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Jullich Subject: Re: Advice sought MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii When I was first planning my wish list of contributors/poems for the new e-journal LOGOPOEIA (http://www.logopoeialogopoeia.da.ru/ , in case people were already off to the Hamptons for the summer in June when it was premiered,--- with significant "coups" such as the first published poetry of Greta Garbo-vanished PCOET poet David Melnick seen in 20 years [introduction by Ron Silliman], revisionist poems surpressed from the Sun & Moon final book version of Standard Schaefer's ~Nova,~ etc.), Jim Jarmusch's poems were at the top of the list. In specific, two poems by him printed in a mid-'70s Columbia Review. Jarmusch was at that time a student at Columbia College in New York City. People attending the Kenneth Koch memorial at the St. Mark's Poetry Project at the beginning of this month, for those who didn't know, may have been surprised to see Jarmusch as one of those invited to offer recollections. He was a student of Kenneth's, and has maintained good contact with his other former teacher, David Shapiro: I've seen Jarmusch show up for a reading of David's in The Village. I'm told that he always invited Kenneth to his premieres. Jarmusch is a couple of years older than me ---I think he was a senior when I was a freshman or sophomore--- although I don't recall our ever speaking. He was, though, close pals with another (then) Columbia poet (gone on to later literary notoriety, shall remain unnamed) of a very precocious ~Tel Quel~-savvy variety,--- so there was a sort of erudition-by-association about him. (I'm not sure how talkative he is, actually [You know those Walking Eyeball cinematographers]: from a distance, he seems softspoken-verging-on-shy; at the Koch memorial, since there were no front row seats remaining, he was positioned off to the front left, almost parallel to the stage, in a somewhat embarassingly conspicuous and well-lit spot, and he sat there waiting for things to begin as though he were patiently in a laundromat, content, expressionless, almost immobile, no twitching, until someone would come up to him raving and interrupt his tranquility. Throughout the entire, lengthy ---almost two hour?--- memorial, he sat in profile like that, reacting to very little. But media celebrity does instill a certain self-possession in many. In the late '70s, he was still around the neighborhood, and I used to see him sitting at the counter in a West 90s diner, in the Golden Age of New York 24-hour breakfast specials, the overall ~noir~-ness of that period, and other ~auteur~-ish New York-isms of the time, such as the now bygone transsexual population in the West 90s and upper 80s. He was already impressive for his mane of prematurely white hair, and perhaps that in-profile fixity that I still find in him was showing. Anyway,--- the Columbia Review poems, entitled ~Nature Mort~ and ~Five Bagatelles,~ are definite worth reading and re-publishing. Certainly out of anyone's curiosity about that ---lost?--- side of a famous film director, but also because the poems were good and, not only good, record a particular, forgotten phase of literary history. As David Shapiro lamented in his recent ~Rain Taxi~ interview (subsequently rebutted in Ron Silliman's blog), the subsequent dominance of Language Poetry has "disappeared" a great deal of what went on in the New York School, that in fact prefigured, outright staked out in advance with proprietary rights, or ---outdid? People don't seem to realize how freely and for how long "this stuff" has been in circulation, nor, in a sense, how ~easily acquired~ it was. Surely the hand-picked students in Kenneth's Imaginative Writing workshop represented an unusually "gifted"/privileged Knights of the Round Table back then, so that Jarmusch or his contemporaries could not be considered "just anyone" who had somehow bought The Lamp of Inspiration cheaply,--- but a review of such student work from that period (and locale) would show a much higher level of sophistication and progressiveness than is generally assumed. Plus ca change. Jarmusch's poems may demonstrate some of those tendencies, too, by way of a sort of Darwinian adaptational fluke of poetry, whereby a great deal that later seemed "Language" but that came between that and New York School in fact got that way simply via being able to read French and those generations' precedence: "Five Bagatelles" in some ways resembles, for example, Picabia's Dada poetry; "Nature Mort", for the way it defuses various sentimental paraphernalia and, perhaps, too vivid a reading of Stevens, is interesting too for the way it contains a walk-on cameo character who enters stage direction/film script-like ("entered the room") to speak in quotation marks --- a sort of harbinger of his later script-writing propensities? At any rate, Jarmusch's assistant, tracked down via California via New York, declined permission. ---So I still don't feel at liberty to quote or re-type the two poems here on-List. (You never know "who's watching.") It's a pity. He underestimated the value of both his early writing and the significance it would have for his admirers and for readers of poetry. ---I might add: regardless of where it might have fit into a phantasmatic literary history that I've badly sketched, poems like his at the time, and to a good extent still, seemed utterly inscrutable. It's difficult to convey the ~bafflement~ that was engendered by progressive poetry back then, even among the well-read. Since then, we've become numb or habituated to most of it, or have developed new sensory organs that can handle these microwaved frequencies. At the time, it was extremely uncommon and in short supply and nothing prepared a reader for being left totally in the dark by perfectly familiar words. travis ortiz wrote: hey kevin, yes, atelos used a still from jim jarmusch's film dead man for jean day's book, _the literal world_. if i remember correctly, we contacted jim jarmusch's office and told them what we wanted to do with the still -- i.e. we wanted to put it on the cover of the book. they were really great about it and actually sent us one of their (big) laser discs for us to pull the still from. first, though, we had to contact johnny depp and ask his permission too. we were put in contact with johnny's personal assistant, bruce. he was very nice too. everyone agreed that we could use the image of the back of johnny depp's head for the sole purpose of printing it on the cover. we had to agree not to use any other images from the film or of johnny depp. our "payment" to both johnny depp and jim jarmusch was two copies of the book to each of them. that was their request. we get permission for all the images we use on our covers actually. generally it's pretty easy, and most people are very agreeable. i think the only time we actually had to pay someone to use an image was when we used the great rodchenko photograph that is on the cover of leslie scalapino's book _r-hu_. some museum in germany owns the photo that we used and charged us about $100 -- i think. so, i'd suggest getting in touch with 20th century fox and seeing who handles permissions over there. i imagine it will work out rather nicely for you. good luck, travis __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 00:19:38 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: Re: minnesota In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >then Maria said, >i ahve no doubt that this was a political assassination, >myself. but that is exactly why i think it will backfire on the sick >ones. being a minnesotan and having wellstone's aid's wife as your dept account, maria, you probably already know that wellstone was once previously associated with a possible assassination attempt, this during his visit to Colombia in December of 2000: http://www.counterpunch.org/pipermail/counterpunch-list/2000-December/004162.html http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/colombia001201.html it wouldnt surprise me in the least if wellstone was assassinated. Conspiracy and America are almost synonymous. something douglas barbour used to put in his signatures always stuck with me: "Violence can only be concealed by a lie, and the lie can only be maintained by violence. Any man who has once proclaimed violence as his method is inevitably forced to take the lie as his principle. - Alexander Solzhenitsyn" gg ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 03:21:50 -0400 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Pavement Saw Press Subject: Re: "all best" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron, Arielle, Jordan-- I always liked the non-academic closing statement of "Eat Poop" but that created too many dissentions & declensions so I've used the statement below for at least a decade with only two problems. I think one can be found in the poetix archives in the mid-nineties. Also, I never heard back from you Arielle, & if anyone else sent me an e-mail & has not heard back-- sometime last month our server lost a lot of messages. Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus OH 43206 USA http://pavementsaw.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 03:22:43 -0400 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Pavement Saw Press Subject: Re: "much too punched out" -- C.O. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Louis, Stephan, Beethoven suggests a conflictually inter-related structure of his symphonies to the score in his later work; they are not the same but related and I take these relations to be Olson's point, his gist. The score of writing is not usually seen as so unreproduceable tho, hence the problem, the common, please excuse my humor, house organ of speech, not being understood for the strata it really occupies. I see Olson as believing, as you say Louis, that "any scoring is already an attempted performance" with one minor exclusion, punctuation as the score of the breath. This is the part I do not understand, why does Olson use the whole page as score, shifting things typographically about on the page, but then ignores the measure each punctive mark makes. For example, a "score" (i.e. poem) where a comma gets one beat, a period four, a double dash gets X, and so on. Therefore my conclusion & what I am offering or suggesting is that the organ analogous to Beethoven's "ear" (which is really outside the realm of the score, ie: showing a time change signature which can only occur on the written page )that Olson does not "need," corresponds to the "breath" a measure also beyond the realm of the page. Merce Cunningham created a similar quandry (i.e. a "beyond-the-page" vector) when he attempted to score dance and so did Chistopher Alexander (the architect) two people I found my reading heading toward & before I concluded with a grand book called The RSVP cycle. Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus OH 43206 USA http://pavementsaw.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 07:29:46 -0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lakey Teasdale Subject: Accorned the morn, Virginia. Accordingly Comments: To: "WRYTING-L : Writing and Theory across Disciplines" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Accorned the morn, Virginia. Accordingly A hypnosis of waves and exchange of breaks a reluctance of surgery and = almost, all or most or even the oddly punctual sharpiditude revised your = distributive emplacement and you are entering, albeit backwards, = somewhere tomorrow. There is something commendable in the chaos called = winter. That and the rebellious significance you shovel onto the flame = slower burning than the other stuff. That is for certain. One of the = things about you saw was a familiar text-ray converted into the sound: = the depth measured in fathoms or marked with lines or rods but not, as = its opposite, measured unbelievably with balloons and all this in a = breeze? Yes. Yes. Almost an involuntary. Turn up the auscultation and = listen harder then. The silenus approaches disguised in = cairngorn-dark-blue reproaches the natural causes and before you know it = a resounding parhelion has this hostility in from the cuithes to glinder = a-boot, a-boot. The sheer on the ear identifies them. Seven lang and = seven short and flies the scotty-fool past the sound crowded around = provoking almost something resembling a borderline dawnuppance. And over = there the two swans. Well and well again, you say: good morning. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 18:16:11 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: komninos zervos Subject: updates In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.2.20021022081314.02405da0@pop.bway.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-562B1513; boundary="=======64EC636=======" --=======64EC636======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-562B1513; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://users.bigpond.net.au/mangolegs/kidzstory.html an interactive fairy tale and more henry lawson poems put to blues music on my turkish baglama on the night train: http://users.bigpond.net.au/mangolegs/lawsonfolder/LAWSON2.html past carin': http://users.bigpond.net.au/mangolegs/lawsonfolder/LAWSON3.html faces in the street: http://users.bigpond.net.au/mangolegs/lawsonfolder/LAWSON4.html enjoy! komninos --=======64EC636======= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-avg=cert; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-562B1513 Content-Disposition: inline --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.404 / Virus Database: 228 - Release Date: 15/10/02 --=======64EC636=======-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 03:11:07 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: august highland Subject: SPECIAL ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE MUSE APPRENTICE GUILD Comments: To: 7-11@mail.ljudmila.org, ImitationPoetics@listserv.unc.edu, o-o@konf.lt, webartery@yahoogroups.com, syndicate@anart.no, _arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au, owner-realpoetik@scn.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit SPECIAL ANNOUNCEMENTS ******************************* THE MUSE APPRENTICE GUILD www.muse-apprentice-guild.com ******************************* #1 NEW IN THE M.A.G.!! CALL FOR PAPERS IN SEMIOTIC THEORY The theoretical semiotician, professor emeritus Paul Bouissac, (www.semioticon.com) has joined with August Highland to create a new semiotics department in the muse apprentice guild. Professor Bouissac will co-edit the new department (semiotics continuum) with Highland. This new feature will create dynamic interaction between the practitioners (poets, writers and new media artists) and academia. This convergence of practice and theory in the muse apprentice guild is going to be launched in the january issue of the m.a.g. SUBMISSION DEADLINE FOR THEORETICAL PAPERS DECEMBER 31, 2002 ********************************* #2 NEW IN THE M.A.G.!! CALL FOR CODE POETRY BY CODEWORKERS The scholar, lecturer and editor, Florian Cramer, (http://www.userpage.fu-berlin.de/~cantsin) has joined with August Highland to form a new codework section in the muse apprentice guild. Cramer will publish the archives of the "Nettime unstable digest", a weekly collection of artistic codework gathered from various mailing lists, in the muse apprentice guild, beginning in the january issue. SUBMISSION DEADLINE FOR ARTISTIC CODEWORK DECEMBER 31, 2002 ********************************* #3 NEW IN THE M.A.G.!! CALL FOR RECORDINGS BY POETS AND WRITERS READING THEIR WORK The muse apprentice guild is now including audio presentations of poets and writers reading from their work. Send mp3, wma or wav files by e-mail or cd's to: muse apprentice guild c/o august highland 3680 moultrie ave san diego ca 92117 SUBMISSION DEADLINE FOR RECORDINGS DECEMBER 31, 2002 ******************************* THE MUSE APPRENTICE GUILD www.muse-apprentice-guild.com ******************************* --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.408 / Virus Database: 230 - Release Date: 10/24/2002 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 04:52:37 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: hyperrhiz2 Comments: cc: "arc.hive" <_arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au>, cupcake kaleidoscope , Renee , rhizome , wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii http://www.rhizomes.net/issue5/hyperrhiz2/hyperrhiz2.html hyperrhiz2 edited by Jason Nelson (my man!) w/ work by mIEKAL aND, Millie Niss, Lewis LaCook, others a rockin' good time.. bliss l . Anningan (in progress) http://www.lewislacook.com/Anningan/AnningansDoor.html http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html meditation, net art, poeisis: blog http://lewislacook.blogspot.com/ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 08:42:04 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Mr. B In-Reply-To: <000201c27ee8$ac769440$9e010140@Glasscastle> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" weehaw! she's back in the saddle... At 5:15 PM -0800 10/28/02, Rachel Loden wrote: >So it's down to my shirt, is it? My shirt is what I lost when Bromelius >and Blowfly sold me that worthless language poetry claim in the Yukon. >That's why they go on and on about philosophers whose names they cannot >spell. > >Well, wake up and smell the maple syrup. As quick as you can say "John >George Diefenbaker" there'll be guys in red serge tunics and Stetsons at >the door. And the only shirts for B&B will be striped ones. > >Rachel L. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: UB Poetics discussion group >> [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of dcmb >> Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2002 9:57 PM >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Subject: Re: Mr. B >> >> >> What a pretty picture....the female instructor, wearing only >> a handsome >> man's shirt, teaching 20th Century philosophy to the eager >> Bowering, who >> sprawls at her feet, looking intently up. >> But it is clearly a fantasy. The woman in question would >> not spell the >> German philosopher's name the way you,o Corrector of >> Spelling, spell it. >> If you are without sin, as you claim, you are not without >> error. And Rachel >> is not without honor. DB >> -----Original Message----- >> From: George Bowering >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Date: Saturday, October 26, 2002 12:51 AM >> Subject: Re: Mr. B >> >> >> >>I didnt ~prefer~your shirts, Geo. They were all that were >> left for me to >> >>wear,in that indifferent climate,and where fashion counts >> for nowt, after >> >>you had micturated on my own. I sccepted your apology the >> next morning. >> Why >> >>do you go on and on about this unseemly incident? It >> couldnnt be that you >> >>are protecting someone--name of Rachel, perhaps? Bromms >> > >> >Okay, okay. But I will tell you one thing, Broomstick. She looks a >> >lot better in your shirt than you ever did. And she knows more about >> >Husserl and his feelings about Heiddegar. > > >-- > > >George Bowering > > >Free of sin. > > >Fax 604-266-9000 > > > > > > > -- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 07:17:02 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: NY Times on Mobilio In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" but andrew, here's the diff: i know very well gioia's work, and the work of his ilk, let's say... i have to, not least b/c you won't get 7440+ hits when you do a google search for my name (unless you get confused with the top fuel racer named joe amato)... i mean, gioia's little diatribe "can poetry matter?" (published in ~the atlantic monthly~ back when i was in grad school) got more circulation than any 100 treatises by the poets on this list... and, pardon me, but what a half-assed diatribe it was... problem is, gioia and most like him don't know about *my* ilk... sorry, but i've been through it a zillion times before... tobias wolff?---great writer i think... but so is ron sukenick... and the problem becomes one having to do with said mainstreamed ("successful") writers and what they think they can "afford" not to know about what else is out there (i.e., if they think about it at all)... whereas most who are not part of the latter club have to know both sides of the divide... i'm sure my explicit dichotomy will cause some alarm among the ranks... but there are times it's worth drawing a line in the sand, and this is one of those times... i would go so far as to say that there's an analog here with race issues---i would say e.g. that african americans have to know more about whites than whites have to know about african americans (yes, here in the u.s. ca. 2002)... maybe this will change someday... but in any case, i've enjoyed more social occasions than i can recount here in which Famous Writer whose work i know and admire has no idea of the texts that have been a formative part of my education as a poet... which situation is generally replete with implicit putdowns of my tradition (i'm going out of my way here to come off as possessive, yes)... the more humble Famous Writers are ok about this---e.g., i can remember a yale younger poet confiding in me that s/he had no knowledge of most of williams's ~kora in hell~ etc etc etc... pretty astonishing really, as the gaps were, again, of a particular lit tradition (i.e., and to say it boldly again, *mine*)---which of course, and as you'd expect, resulted in a particular kind of yale younger poetry... i have all sortsa gaps in my knowledge mself, but i mean, like, not of this order, no fucking way... and in this regard, i suppose the first rule is that word you used in a prior post, andrew---humility... as to incentives, i have every marketplace incentive to know what i'm up against, whereas those to whom i'm making reference contra do not, setting aside some of them potentially developing an awareness of something akin to a symposium of the whole (can you imagine?)... we're not talking the value of abc poetry, either, we're talking the way said value is/is not established, by whom, where, and how often... and i don't think, though john tranter can certainly wax more eloquent than i about this, that ~jacket~ need feel obliged to cover the same poets who get covered in any number of major news venues... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 10:02:52 -0500 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: All best, In-Reply-To: <200210290005328.SM00941@acsu.buffalo.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron - How about Eat me, or Enriching ejaculate, or Yours in hell, or I saw it there but I had to let the cat out, or Wishing you the most favorable circumstances in all of your future encounters with life, or Pay ya boy and make me rich/so we keep them Swisher's lit, or Unnh, Patrick ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 07:45:46 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: subrosa@SPEAKEASY.ORG Subject: Seattle Subtext Readings Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: binary Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Subtext continues its monthly series of experimental writing with readings by Peter Quartermain and Charles Mudede at the Richard Hugo House on Wednesday, November 6, 2002. Suggested donations for admission are $5 at the door on the evening of the performance. The reading starts at 7:30pm. Peter Quartermain retired in 1999 from UBC, where he taught contemporary poetry and poetics for over thirty years. In addition to writing Disjunctive Poetics: from Gertrude Stein and Louis Zukofsky to Susan Howe (1992), and Basil Bunting: Poet of the North (1990), he edited four volumes on American Poets 1880-1945 for the Dictionary of Literary Biography (1986-7), and two anthologies: Other British and Irish Poetry since 1970 with Richard Caddel (Wesleyan UP, 1998) and The Objectivist Nexus: Essays in Cultural Poetics (U of Alabama P, 1999) with Rachel Blau DuPlessis. He has published about seventy articles and essays on poets writing in English. He most recently interrupted the writing of his autobiography Where I Lived and What I Learned For: Part I -- Growing Dumb, with a brief stint conducting a workshop at the Naropa Summer Writing Program in Boulder, Colorado. He is married to the poet Meredith Quartermain. They ran Slug Press (now defunct) and are currently setting up Keefer Street Press, for limited-edition letter-press work. Charles Tonderai Mudede is a native of Zimbabwe who has lived in Seattle since 1991. He is currently the books editor of The Stranger, where he also writes the "Police Beat" column. He also teaches at Pacific Lutheran University. His work has appeared appeared in the Village Voice, Sydney Morning Daily, Radical Urban Theory, Ars Electronica, Seattle Review, and Nest Magazine, among others. This summer, his screenplay, Superpower, which he co-authored with Robinson Devor, was selected for the Sundance Screenplay Lab. Mudede is a founding member of the Seattle Research Institute and co-author, with Diana George, of "Last Seen," an essay published by the Artspeak Gallery in Vancouver, B.C. Subtext readings fall on the 1st Wednesday of the month (unless otherwise noted) at the Richard Hugo House. The Hugo House is located at 1634 11th Ave on Capitol Hill in Seattle. Suggested donations for admission are $5 at the door on the evening of the performance. For information on these and other Subtext events, see our web site: http://www.speakeasy.org/subtext Subtext events are co-sponsored by the Richard Hugo House. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 10:52:34 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eileen Tabios Subject: "er, um" by Garrett Caples with Hu Xin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi. This offer features free shipping/handling to List members. And if you enclose a poem with any order, take 20% off the retail price because, at Meritage Press, we believe a poem has value. Ordering information below: =================== Meritage Press is pleased to announce the release of er, um Poems by Garrett Caples Drawings by Hu Xin Meritage Press ISBN: 0-9709179-1-0 er, um is a collection of ten poems by Garrett Caples, together with six drawings by Hu Xin, published by Meritage Press in a handsome limited edition of 75 copies for trade. Each copy is signed and numbered by the author. The poems include a lyric ode to "China," homages to Philip Lamantia and Barbara Guest, the prose of "Turd Factory," and an "Elegy for George Harrison." Learn fascinating tidbits like "Alexander Graham Bell wanted to call/ his daughter Photophone" and "the iraqi oud players did not initiate/ this conflict." "Imagine a town with no numbers." See "stone lions/ accost drunken clowns dressed as priests" and "evergreen cypresses/ form the/ appropriate image/ of death." er, um also marks the first publication of Hu Xin's graphic work, made specifically for this volume. All this and more, for the princely price of a sawbuck ($10). Garrett Caples is a poet living in Oakland, CA. er, um is his first collection of poems since The Garrett Caples Reader (Black Square Editions 1999), which Publisher's Weekly found "straddling the line between a Syd Barrett stream-of-sweet-nothings and the bachelor-machine eroticism of Duchamp." Previous volumes include The Dream of Curtains, burr, Five Drawings by Brian Lucas (for which he supplied text), and synth. Of his work, the poet Jeff Clark was once heard to say: "Caples is a polymath. He is, in no particular order, an essayist (he's published long, sometimes notorious evaluations of Barbara Guest, Will Alexander, John Yau, Joe Brainard, Barrett Watten, Eliot Weinberger, Charles Bernstein, among others); with his partner Anna Naruta he's the maker of films, documentaries, music videos; with Naruta he's also the publisher of Kolourmeim Press; recently he produced a cd of boogified electronica entitled Lee Marvin; he's fashioned liner notes for a handful of indie rock albums; he's a scholar of Joyce and of Stein; more interestingly, he's a connoisseur of hip-hop; he's a love poet, photographer, and collage-maker. His erotica has been anthologized. He's at work on an interview with Shock-G of Digital Underground. He's been and likely will remain, as long as he's here--or there--a student of radical Oakland politics and culture." Hu Xin is a painter living in Beijing. Though trained from an early age in the techniques of traditional Chinese painting--his father and grandfather were both successful artists--he most often works in what in China is a comparatively recent field, oil painting on canvas. He has studied painting in China and Japan, where, as a graduate student, we began to absorb some Western influences. In particular, he was drawn to Dali's paranoiac-critical method, though "his own repeated attempts to fuse the essence of traditional Chinese painting and realistic oil painting brought about a distinct technique." Hu Xin makes extensive use of transparency, complicating the relationship between figure and ground while suggesting other planes intersecting surface reality. The result is a neo-surrealism that--given the paucity of material on surrealism written in or translated into Chinese--may be considered self-won, product of his own belief that "artistic skill should be primarily in the service of the mind," rather than simple assimilation or imitation of Western art. ========== Ordering Information: $10, or $8 with a poem enclosed (because Meritage Press believes a poem has value) Send checks made out to Eileen Tabios to Eileen Tabios Publisher, Meritage Press 2275 Broadway, Suite 312 San Francisco, CA 94115 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 11:05:29 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Re: group thot? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/26/02 9:45:38 PM, richard.tylr@XTRA.CO.NZ writes: << Bill. Its probably ultimtely a class question, but of course, its who and what one reads, one's own personality: degree of political "nous" and so on. people we know for example become strongly religious because their parents were: others reject religion for the same reason. Most people are influenced by their parents ..but there are many other influences. John Geraets in the ..can I call it "innovative" NZ mag?.... has recently explained his aesthetics: interesting as that "explantion is" one suspects that Geraets likes being "in aporia" and moving with the moment's ever expanding bubble... (and some of my own writing moves in directions loosely of a similar kind of philosophic: if not being anything like Geraets's work in texture)...and in fact about 1994 I "liked to think" that I didnt need to think about politics, and to some extent it was my "discovery" of the Language Poets that "incited" or excited me to look at the politico-social aspects of language practice, and perhaps that is ironic or paradoxical ...or to at least become aware of the link so to speak...but around that time I was more attracted to what I suppose was or could have become a sort of elitist aesthetic: the poetry that most interested me (and a lot of it still does) was not predicated on any presuppositions, and required poets to be extremly well read if not PhDs (or at least very interested in poetics etc) - I was interested in the innovation and experimentation and the "crazy stuff" for "individualist" political reasons I suppose. I had done some political satrical work and some vaguely Ashberic stuff but was wanting to move toward a "higher" poetic/poetry......and at that time I contributed to a small mag called Salt (NZ) which Scott Hamilton and Hamish Dewe published... and at that time (about 1994) one of Scott's tenets was that they were having "no political correctness"....I was attracted to this semi-anarchistic approach ...but at various times in my life, "life" such as the fact that I have three children, and now a grand child, impinges on my work...and even here there is no escaping the effects that S11- more Life - Lfe of Dream? - or Trauma? - had on us here even in NZ (where we all of course have televisions) so if it was a CIA stunt it was pretty spectacular and effective one: my initial reaction Bill was in fact very pro a kind of Bush one as some strange events had preceded it....I had met an Iraqi the day or so before (who was actually Babylonian) ...then I had my friend who is (he disagrees quite strongly by the way with me we've had some real crazy arguments, he thinking that the Muslim extremists are the bad guys and so on) but in a library I had met an older American women and somewhow the question of refugees (maybe I mentioned the fact that I had actually met a Babylonian and thought she'd be interested in that) coming here was raised: she raised the "terrorist" spectre, calling (people in the Middle East ) "hot blooded, then I had some strong words about recent US history, then she: "So you're anti,eh?" and so on. But then my friend suggested that someof the people coming here could be potential terroists...now, nowadays I think that that is possible but not important: and a day or so after those encounters "whammo!" I wake up to a phone call from my son wanting me to turn the TVon and there it is: towers bursting in the violet air and the whole thing surreal and strange and then I sent an email wanting to wipe out all the Arabs...but I changed my position...I started to think more calmly and I became "suspicioned" of Bush and the BBC and so on. Charles Bernstein did those quite excellent "reports", and I did a lot of probably a bit crazy "raving"...so the whole fireworks display of S11 has polarised and politicised or re-politicised people throughout the world.....and as you imply, where one stands is often what one likes to think for various complex reasons. Regards, Richard. >> I enjoy posts that focus on the issue at hand, but also reach out to involve everything else that has been going on for a while. Thanks for this overview of your evolution/development, Richard. Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com KojaPress.com Amazon.com BarnesandNoble.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 11:19:14 -0500 Reply-To: men2@columbia.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Millie Niss Subject: Re: dANDelion: a special issue around the work of Roy Kiyooka. In-Reply-To: <00f801c27ea8$f65c3a00$2cdade42@housepress> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit do you have any e-pointers to Kiyooka's work? -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of derek beaulieu Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 12:39 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: dANDelion: a special issue around the work of Roy Kiyooka. dANDelion Magazine is currently seeking submissions for a special issue around the work of Roy Kiyooka (1926-1994). dANDelion is looking for creative and critical work that intersects with the issues and communities around Roy Kiyooka's work. We are actively seeking work that address problems of representation, culture, media and performance, the document in photography and poetry, as well as Kiyooka's own poetics, photography, fine art, performance, film, pedagogy and cultural work. Submissions desired: - mixed-genre work - B&W Art: (ie: photography, illustration, mixed-media) - Prose: poetics, critical/theoretical, interviews, reviews and poetic statements - Poetry: experimental and linguistically innovative work, "long" &/or serial forms, translation deadline: Jan 31st, 2003. Please address inquiries & submissions to: dANDelion Magazine c/o department of English, university of Calgary, 2500 university drive NW, Calgary Alberta, t2n 1n4, Canada submissions are also welcome via email (as DOC or JPEG files) to: derek@housepress.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 01:21:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sawako Nakayasu Subject: [Two] Factorial--Call for Work Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed !Factorial Press is pleased to announce: [Two] Factorial--Call for Work Please refer to the first issue, [One] Factorial, to see how some writers and artists have approached collaboration. While we are excited by the range of collaborative projects in the first issue, we hope the work and discussions included in it offer themselves more as points of proliferation than models to be emulated. [One] Factorial is available for $6: (payable to Sawako Nakayasu; but correspondence must be addressed to !Factorial Press.) !Factorial Press PO Box 153106 San Diego, CA 92195-3106. http://www.factorial.org Possibilities: --> Any work that responds to or engages with the discussions in part two of [One] Factorial is particularly welcome; --> Any submissions of work that uses a title from Keith Waldrop's _Titles for Sale_ should enclose $2/title, in a check made out to Keith Waldrop; --> A collaborative process does not always have to be collaboratively "generative," but can be "degenerative" (Example: Keith and Rosmarie Waldrops' "Words Worth Less," a collaboration where they began with a Wordsworth poem and alternated removing words from the original and each other's pared down offerings); --> And as usual: plays, performance text, transcriptions, instructions, narrative, conversations, essays, poems, definitions, manifestos, incidental text, and various combinations thereof; --> OR descriptions, ideas, processes, proposals, possible & impossible imaginings of collaborative projects for the (Collaborating [On) Collaborating] section. --> Note: the main focus of the journal is still text-collaborations, although we welcome work that also engages with the musical, visual, temporal, and performative. --> Electronic collaborations will be considered for publication on the website. Please send 1 to 15 pages of hard copy. Send *two* copies of all submissions to: !Factorial Press Sawako Nakayasu & Mark Tardi, Editors 516 N. Main Street, Apt.3 Bloomington, IL 61701 Please include sufficient postage if you would like your work returned. Deadline: February 1, 2003 !Factorial Press http://www.factorial.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 10:50:18 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: Stodgy Buffalos from Starved Fox Ashes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed You ain 't tr ansgre SSive,you just got caught J-walking I forgot the alph abet, but I'm still talking V IrginI a 's so contagious she really turns yr pages elas ti CITY close all w. porridge is ly ied exasperation has been called, in ano art orange ther icle, the Poland of success brings her back through mourning geometry, eve n at maximum speed, is hardly po uring "Lits et facsimile cateror Ratures" ically royal purple dialogue is hard to re fute, especia lly if it's hurtful the revelation , yes, but to pro per f it it ly would take a month snivell ing to para phrase what V boils down to hunch IrginI A the peace of Bucyrus eve ntually mast red the hereditary loom antler dang A Parisian decision is more erous than a maladroit panther _________________________________________________________________ Surf the Web without missing calls! Get MSN Broadband. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 12:57:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: noah eli gordon Subject: poetry on the radio?? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hello all, I'm in the process of beginning to go through a dj training program at a local college station, hoping to start a poetry program: readings, author interviews, discussions etc. The station broadcasts via the web and I'm wondering if anyone knows of other programs like this? does any one do a show focused on poetry??? web cast??? any info will help... thanks, noah _________________________________________________________________ Broadband? Dial-up? Get reliable MSN Internet Access. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 13:01:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: 2 New chapbooks Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Find it in your heart to purchase: 100 Sonnets by Jim Behrle (new from Cheap Fumes and Haymakers) ~and/or~ The Wasted Life by Jim Behrle (new from This Wolf Went to Town) ~and possibly these Behrle backlist favorites~ City Point (Pressed Wafer) Poems w/ Fred Moten (Pressed Wafer) Recent Sonic News (Please Evict Us.) Send check or sticks of gold: Jim Behrle attn: jimmy 3 Washburn Terr #3 Brookline, MA 02446 $5 apiece, shipping included. Be the first on your block, etc. He's (arguably) not as big an asshole as you think. *THX* _________________________________________________________________ Internet access plans that fit your lifestyle -- join MSN. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 15:36:26 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: gaps, blogs, pages and cogito, i suspect MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Joe writes, "the gaps were, again, of a particular lit tradition (i.e., and to say it boldly again,*mine*)---which of course, and as you'd expect, resulted in a particular kind of yale younger poetry" and Bob writes "> Canadian poetry = New American Poetry minus the NY School. Why? Sounds dumb. Probably the best Canadian poets, perhaps inspired by bp Nichol, have been visual and sound poets, and that ain't New American Poetry. I rather suspect there are also NY School Canadian poets, too." and Carles Bernstein posts his Poetry "Experiments" (cited as paradigm, albeit limited, rather than as mischance or bobble) all in one day if on different lists. the experiments seem to be limited to linguistic and rational play? descartes' error may have been one of vision limited to the ratonal and this has been magnified by Western civilization into a vision in which warfare is seen as the only way of asserting existence. the esay way out is to negate the 'i' but what of i FEEL, i SEE, i HEAR, i AM IN PAIN? and content? tom bell &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&cetera: Poetry at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/publicat.html Gallery - Metaphor/Metonym for Health at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/metaphor/metapho.htm Health articles at http://psychology.healingwell.com/ Reviews at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/reviews.htm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 13:19:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: poem Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed And the Band Played "Teenage Riot" Scratch and follow the Bouncing cue unto its Rest Upon the lowest point Around which ends Up Wherever we are Naturally I yearn to trust but don't Pass the Ketchup or mustard And fuckbuddies of my violent hours Never fail to Spoil shit Or chase me from warm talk and *comfort* Based upon my own Limited estimations We're pretty fucked Let's hassle each Other under deep cover in bed, bath and Beyond, give up on Redeeming me To save me Anyways, savagely You always say "The World is ending" and I get Excited But we're still Somehow fucking here Looking at the schoolgirls we're no supposed To Mushrooming further out against surrendered Landscape Begone you things that Tempt me Slink away deeper, Never to erupt _________________________________________________________________ Get a speedy connection with MSN Broadband. Join now! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 13:37:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anastasios Kozaitis Subject: Re: gaps, blogs, pages and cogito, i suspect In-Reply-To: <014601c27f93$3db6b7a0$30343544@rthfrd01.tn.comcast.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 04:36 PM 10/29/2002, you wrote: >and content? shhhhh.... don't use that word. god forbid anyone consider content. it's all horseplay on the outside, but it's a set. look in to see the house is hollow. --Ak ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 12:40:27 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: A Vulgar Performance On The Death Of Virginia Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed SCENE 1 VIRGINIA'S FACE: Scowl VIRGINIA'S FACE: Smile VIRGINIA'S FACE: Flush ________________________________________ SCENE 2 VIRGINIA'S FACE: Flush [ENTER COMPLIANT LIGHTNING] COMPLIANT LIGHTNING: Flash VIRGINIA'S FACE: Flush COMPLIANT LIGHTNING: Flush, then _______________________________________ SCENE 3 [ENTER ADAMANT THUNDER] ADAMANT THUNDER: Boom VIRGINIA'S MOUTH: Broom ADAMANT THUNDER: Boom _______________________________________ SCENE 4 VIRGINIA'S FACE & COMPLAINT LIGHTNING: Flush _______________________________________ SCENE 5 VIRGINIA'S FACE: Scowl COMPLIANT LIGHTNING: Flush _______________________________________ * CURTAIN * _______________________________________ _________________________________________________________________ Surf the Web without missing calls! Get MSN Broadband. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 16:33:20 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: gaps, blogs, pages and cogito, i suspect MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT kind of like a Rorschach test of poetics - despite cultural myths to the contrary the test used diagnostically has little to do with content but with style, anguage, form, etc. guess I've shot off my load for the day. tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anastasios Kozaitis" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 12:37 PM Subject: Re: gaps, blogs, pages and cogito, i suspect > At 04:36 PM 10/29/2002, you wrote: > >and content? > > > > shhhhh.... > > don't use that word. > > god forbid anyone consider content. > > it's all horseplay on the outside, but it's a set. look in to see the house > is hollow. > > --Ak ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 19:25:03 -0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lakey Teasdale Subject: equilibrium, Virginia. The staggering correspondence of treasure. An old master Comments: To: "WRYTING-L : Writing and Theory across Disciplines" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable equilibrium, Virginia. The staggering correspondence of treasure. An old = master stored there where you left it. There is a build up of sand, something = about tides, currents and barriers. And the concrete of blocks. Didn't = really understand this by-the-way explanation but naturally flummoxed = and apparently worked out a fabrication that satisfies the way it = revolves. Almost like the world, wouldn't you say? Staggering. Almost = like the world as though the squares within circles and the way his arms = stretch out. The diagonals. The background.=20 The chart. By way of interaction? Or prediction. His eyes were deep = light-blue corresponding and/or contrasting to a dark green shirt he = then wore, his lion's beard the last to go in chemical reaction. Full of = life until the transition. Almost the way Bach had so many children, a = fugue of them setting the pace for the long distance runner. Running = into the long distance. Staying the course. The marathon space. You can see the faint outline of a Wheel? Was it or maybe is that the = one?=20 Ezequiel held no answer to the question at all. None at all, but she = heard it nonetheless and it tolls, sometimes taking its toll, sometimes = a comfort, the way one finds remittance in symbols, a pittance not quite = understood, but there just for the mystery of it. The way children break = out in festivals of firecrackers and subversively chant, hookah tookah = my soda cracker, three six nine the goose drank wine. The hurried genius = of outstretched arms reaching toward? And mirrored by his legs = outstretched, pinned to the map? Nailed to a wheel? Pity that she = couldn't see it, he said so, made that plain, but knows only that the = wheel was great and wonders if. Covered in Chinese explosives and/or = ablaze. The days swift as the weaver's shuttle and spent. But dragging = along any old which way the thoughts wander, run across the encounter, = still runs the gauntLets go off at the mouth. Listen to tauntLet it be = for a while. Presuppose benediction, preface inscription, shiver your = timbers, hang from the rafters and rush at the fences. And all this from the old master. Oh, you, Leonardo, you and your = mystery man. Your charcoal, her mystery, her man. Pinned to a map? A = wheel? A target, revolving? Her beautiful, bearded old man, da Vinci, pinned to your paper and = compassed, encompassed around as though navigation might help him spin = wheels and begs you:=20 Please don't throw that knife.=20 Let the wheel turn, turn, let it revolve but=20 don't throw that knife. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 15:21:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: poetry on the radio MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII There used to be (still is?) a show on Columbia's WKCR 89.9 FM New York station, Sundays either at 8 or 8:30, called "Composed on the Tongue." I tried tried tried to change the name when I ran it, but because it was from an Allen Ginsberg poem they insisted. BAI used to broadcast radio plays, some of which were in verse. And there was the show Kenneth Sherwood use to run at UB, Linebreak. Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 15:17:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Don Summerhayes Subject: virus warning MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Everybody, I received the message below from CARFAC and checked, and sure enough had the file, which I got rid of as directed. This is my first experience with a virus. I'll leave it to you, of course, whether you want to do the same. Otherwise, have a good day! Don I just received this e-mail from a contact, and yes, I did find this virus, it was easy to get rid of please follow the directions below, sorry for the inconvenience and raising of blood pressure. Subject: Possible Virus Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 12:15:39 -0400 A Virus has been passed on to me. My address book had in turn been infected. Since you are in my address book, there is a good chance you will find it in your computer too. If so follow the directions below and eradicated the virus easily. Sorry for the inconvenience. The Virus (called jdbgmgr.exe) is not detected by Norton or McAfee anti-virus systems. The virus sits quietly for 14 days before damaging the system. It is sent automatically by messenger and by the address book, whether or not you sent emails to your contacts. Here's how to check for the virus and how to get rid of it. YOU MUST DO THIS 1. Go to Start, Find or Search option 2. In the file/folders option, type the name: jdbgmgr.exe 3. Be sure you search your C: drive and all sub-folders and any other drives you may have. 4. Click "find now" 5. The Virus has a teddy bear icon with the name jdbgmgr.exe DO NOT OPEN IT 6. Go to Edit (on the menu bar), choose "select all" to highlight the file without opening it. 7. Now go to File (on the menu bar) and select delete. It will then go to the Recycle Bin. 8. Go to the Recycle Bin and delete it there as well IF YOU FIND THE VIRUS, YOU MUST CONTACT ALL THE PEOPLE IN YOUR ADDRESS BOOK, SO THEY CAN ERADICATE IT IN THEIR OWN ADDRESS BOOKS. SORRY ABOUT THIS To do this:- a) Open a new e-mail message b) Click the icon of the address book next to the "TO" c) Highlight every name and Add to "BCC" d) Copy this message....enter subject.....paste to e-mail.....send. Thanks and sorry for the inconvenience. Marilyn Nazar Communications Coordinator CARFAC Ontario ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 17:05:56 -0330 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K.Angelo Hehir" Subject: support indie music-the sebadre cords year one Comments: cc: he who lurks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: danny keating >ok folks so....im proud to announce that the worlds smallest most un >lucrative record label is one year old.. the sebadre cords was a concept that lived in the tidy confides of my skull for a while until the secret cervix needed a release to take with them to cornerbrook for a rock and roll tour to arts town.. with help from the band we put out the pansy core compilation (cassette) it featured tracks by the secret cervix,fell down some stairs,the co-stars,the shivering men, the origin of the sound,thee co-starzee,and shamblinal....(90 min) next up i took my origin of the sound demos i was compiling and culled them to come up with the origin of the sound volume 1 its crusty acoustic pop..synth pop..sample pop..angry crust rock.. recorded between 2000 and 2001(maybe even 1999) (casette) these casettes each came with original cover art(60 min) thirdly ..was my venture into the world of cds.. i released the ep "the united states of ontario" title track is not on the record (in case anyone goes to open mics and knows the song)it is 5 songs and a bells chime two spacy acoustic pop songs one dysfunctional noise track ,a jangly spoken word/pop song\ and a track of guitar vomit featuring a sample from the village of the damned about nuclear energy..(cd)(19:15) my fourth release was a double disc..that was double dipped (if anyone gets my drift) it ranges from the spooky to the obvious to the confused to th efloaty over all its rather uncomfortable i think but fun to listen to(hopefullY) its called the origin of the sound volume ? nation crustacean and the ok kos(chaos)(90 min) so what im gettin to.. is that release 5 is ready to go..well its in the process of bein dumped to cd.... its 8 tracks less "dipped" than the double recording.. but thing is..the sebadre cords doesnt hate making money it just doesnt.. so im re releasing some of the stuff..(all of it if desired) i'm starting with the first cd "the united states of ontarion e.p. i have 13 burnt and ready to go..im just in th eprocess of making the custom covers that will acccompany the ep.. they are $5 please buy them to help fund the new disc and the sebadre cords in general lots of work goes into it.. 5 releases in one year for year one..thats ok.! pansy core comp ($5) origin vol.1 ($5) united states of ontario($5) origin vol.? ($10) she's out of gas, and i have nothing left to sell..(not ready yet) _________________________________________________________________ Surf the Web without missing calls! Get MSN Broadband. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp _______________________________________________ d-acad: the Downtown Academy of Improvisers d-acad@abandonstream.net http://www.abandonstream.net/mailman/listinfo/d-acad ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 12:43:17 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: virus warning In-Reply-To: <3DBEECEE.38EDAC66@yorku.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT do check symantek re: these virus hoaxes -- This is a hoax that, like the SULFNBK.EXE Warning hoax, tries to persuade you to delete a legitimate Windows file from your computer. The file that the hoax refers to, Jdbgmgr.exe, is a Java Debugger Manager. It is a Microsoft file that is installed when you install Windows. NOTE: Recent version of this hoax take advantage of the recent outbreak of the W32.bugbear@mm worm, and the fact that the Jdbgmgr.exe file that is mentioned in the hoax has a bear icon. The actual W32.bugbear@mm worm file is an .exe file and does not have a bear icon. The Windows Jdbgmgr.exe file has a teddy bear icon as described in the hoax: CAUTION: Jdbgmgr.exe, like any file, can become infected by a virus. One virus in particular, W32.Efortune.31384@mm, targets this file. Norton AntiVirus has provided protection against W32.Efortune.31384@mm since May 11, 2001. NOTE: If you have already deleted the Jdbgmgr.exe file, some Java applets may not run correctly. This is not a critical system file. The file version may vary with your operating system and version of Internet Explorer. If you want to restore the file, read the instructions in the How to restore the Jdbgmgr.exefile section at the end of this document. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 12:44:30 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Mr. B In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >weehaw! she's back in the saddle... Wait, wait, wait. We didnt know that was a language poetry claim. In all good faith, we bought it off Anselm, who said that it was a sure-fire New York School vein. Bromige talked me into buying it and said that he would soon pay me back for his half. > >At 5:15 PM -0800 10/28/02, Rachel Loden wrote: >>So it's down to my shirt, is it? My shirt is what I lost when Bromelius >>and Blowfly sold me that worthless language poetry claim in the Yukon. >>That's why they go on and on about philosophers whose names they cannot >>spell. >> >>Well, wake up and smell the maple syrup. As quick as you can say "John >>George Diefenbaker" there'll be guys in red serge tunics and Stetsons at >>the door. And the only shirts for B&B will be striped ones. >> >>Rachel L. >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: UB Poetics discussion group >>> [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of dcmb >>> Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2002 9:57 PM >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>> Subject: Re: Mr. B >>> >>> >>> What a pretty picture....the female instructor, wearing only >>> a handsome >>> man's shirt, teaching 20th Century philosophy to the eager >>> Bowering, who >>> sprawls at her feet, looking intently up. >>> But it is clearly a fantasy. The woman in question would >>> not spell the >>> German philosopher's name the way you,o Corrector of >>> Spelling, spell it. >>> If you are without sin, as you claim, you are not without >>> error. And Rachel >>> is not without honor. DB >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: George Bowering >>> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>> Date: Saturday, October 26, 2002 12:51 AM >>> Subject: Re: Mr. B >>> >>> >>> >>I didnt ~prefer~your shirts, Geo. They were all that were >>> left for me to >>> >>wear,in that indifferent climate,and where fashion counts >>> for nowt, after >>> >>you had micturated on my own. I sccepted your apology the >>> next morning. >>> Why >>> >>do you go on and on about this unseemly incident? It >>> couldnnt be that you >>> >>are protecting someone--name of Rachel, perhaps? Bromms >>> > >>> >Okay, okay. But I will tell you one thing, Broomstick. She looks a >>> >lot better in your shirt than you ever did. And she knows more about >>> >Husserl and his feelings about Heiddegar. >> > >-- >> > >George Bowering >> > >Free of sin. >> > >Fax 604-266-9000 >> > > >> > >> > > > >-- -- George Bowering Open to suggestions. Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 17:26:50 -0330 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K.Angelo Hehir" Subject: Writer in Residence Announcement Comments: cc: "CPA Listserv@" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Subject: Writer in Residence Announcement Please find below the Markin Flanagan Writer-in-Residence Call for Applications announcement. I thought this might be of interest to your membership. If you have any questions or concerns please feel free to contact me. Sincerely, Leigh Hurst MARKIN-FLANAGAN DISTINGUISHED WRITERS PROGRAMME RESIDENCY OPPORTUNITY FOR WRITERS AT UNIVERSITY OF CALGARY The Markin-Flanagan Distinguished Writers Programme offers a unique opportunity for emerging Canadian writers to devote their time to writing and career development while living in a historic house in the heart of Calgary. Our past writers in residence include Eden Robinson, Laura Robinson, Richard Sanger, Peter Oliva, Larissa Lai, Rosemary Nixon, Richard Harrison, Ven Begamudrè and Roberta Rees. The 2002 – 2003 Writer-in-Residence is Suzette Mayr. Applications are invited for the position of Writer-in-Residence from October 15, 2003 to August 15, 2004. The Markin-Flanagan Programme offers this residency in the Faculty of Humanities (Department of English) at the University of Calgary for emerging Canadian writers as a benefit to regional and local communities. This ten-month appointment offers a salary and a residence in the John Snow House located in the vibrant Lower Mount Royal district of Calgary. This historic house was previously owned by John Snow, a well-known Canadian artist, and has been home to such prestigious writers as Timothy Findley during his time as Markin-Flanagan Distinguished Visiting Writer. The house was recently renovated, is fully furnished and equipped. It has two bedrooms, two bathrooms and a writing studio. Candidates should have between one and four published books, and preferably, but not necessarily, hold a university degree. The residency will include time for writing, manuscript consultations, public presentations, assistance with hosting other visiting writers, and related duties. Applicants should submit: - a curriculum vitae, - published books, - a statement of their interest in the residency, - a single page description of projects to be undertaken during the residency, and - three letters of reference. Interested writers should send their application by mail or courier to: Dr. Pierre-Yves Mocquais, Dean, Faculty of Humanities, Room SS 1346, University of Calgary, 2500 University Drive NW, Calgary, Alberta, T2N 1N4 DEADLINE FOR SUBMISSIONS IS December 16,2002 The University of Calgary respects, appreciates and encourages diversity. Further information: Leigh Hurst (403) 220-8177, clhurst@ucalgary.ca --- Leigh Hurst Markin-Flanagan Distinguished Writers Programme University of Calgary www.markinflanagan.com phone: 403-220-8177 fax: 403-284-0848 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 17:00:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Roger Gilbert Subject: Re: virus warning In-Reply-To: <3DBEECEE.38EDAC66@yorku.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed This is apparently a hoax. All Windows computers have the jdbgmgr.exe program, so it's not a virus. (I'm told it's the "Microsoft Debugger Registrar for Java," whatever that means.) Someone evidently had the brilliant idea of creating a kind of virtual virus that takes the form of a message telling people that they already have a virus, which they are then instructed to pass along to everyone else in their address books, leading everyone to delete a perfectly innocuous file. It's a kind of cybernetic hypochondria. At 03:17 PM 10/29/02 -0500, you wrote: >Hello Everybody, > >I received the message below from CARFAC and checked, and sure enough >had the file, which I got rid of as directed. This is my first >experience with a virus. I'll leave it to you, of course, whether you >want to do the same. > >Otherwise, have a good day! > >Don > > >I just received this e-mail from a contact, and yes, I did find this >virus, >it was easy to get rid of please follow the directions below, sorry for >the >inconvenience and raising of blood pressure. > >Subject: Possible Virus >Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 12:15:39 -0400 >A Virus has been passed on to me. My address book had in turn been >infected. >Since you are in my address book, there is a good chance you will find >it >in your computer too. >If so follow the directions below and eradicated the virus easily. >Sorry for the inconvenience. >The Virus (called jdbgmgr.exe) is not detected by Norton or McAfee >anti-virus systems. >The virus sits quietly for 14 days before damaging the system. >It is sent automatically by messenger and by the address book, whether >or not you sent emails to your contacts. >Here's how to check for the virus and how to get rid of it. YOU MUST DO >THIS >1. Go to Start, Find or Search option >2. In the file/folders option, type the name: jdbgmgr.exe >3. Be sure you search your C: drive and all sub-folders and any other >drives you may have. >4. Click "find now" >5. The Virus has a teddy bear icon with the name jdbgmgr.exe >DO NOT OPEN IT >6. Go to Edit (on the menu bar), choose "select all" to highlight the >file without opening it. >7. Now go to File (on the menu bar) and select delete. It will then go >to the Recycle Bin. >8. Go to the Recycle Bin and delete it there as well >IF YOU FIND THE VIRUS, YOU MUST CONTACT ALL THE PEOPLE IN YOUR ADDRESS >BOOK, >SO THEY CAN ERADICATE IT IN THEIR OWN ADDRESS BOOKS. >SORRY ABOUT THIS >To do this:- >a) Open a new e-mail message >b) Click the icon of the address book next to the "TO" >c) Highlight every name and Add to "BCC" >d) Copy this message....enter subject.....paste to e-mail.....send. > >Thanks and sorry for the inconvenience. >Marilyn Nazar >Communications Coordinator >CARFAC Ontario ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 18:02:42 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: from Jim Behrle In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Subject: Halloween poems Any suggestions from anyone regarding good poems written about Halloween? I have to read some on the radio and so far it's Poe, Poe, Poe. Thanks and backchannel if you like. Jimmy Behrle hey jimmy: jack spicer has some great ones: poem for private graham mackintosh is one -- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 15:12:36 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Starr Subject: Re: from Jim Behrle In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII "All Hallows" from Louise Gluck's second book, _The House on Marshland_. (Quite different and more interesting than her recent work.) - Ron Starr On Tue, 29 Oct 2002, Maria Damon wrote: > Subject: Halloween poems > > Any suggestions from anyone regarding good poems written about > Halloween? I have to read some on the radio and so far it's Poe, > Poe, Poe. > > Thanks and backchannel if you like. > > Jimmy Behrle > > hey jimmy: jack spicer has some great ones: poem for private graham > mackintosh is one > > > -- > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 18:32:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Shoemaker Subject: virus hoax In-Reply-To: <3DBEECEE.38EDAC66@yorku.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII According to McAfee.com this is a hoax. Steve On Tue, 29 Oct 2002, Don Summerhayes wrote: > Hello Everybody, > > I received the message below from CARFAC and checked, and sure enough > had the file, which I got rid of as directed. This is my first > experience with a virus. I'll leave it to you, of course, whether you > want to do the same. > > Otherwise, have a good day! > > Don > > > I just received this e-mail from a contact, and yes, I did find this > virus, > it was easy to get rid of please follow the directions below, sorry for > the > inconvenience and raising of blood pressure. > > Subject: Possible Virus > Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 12:15:39 -0400 > A Virus has been passed on to me. My address book had in turn been > infected. > Since you are in my address book, there is a good chance you will find > it > in your computer too. > If so follow the directions below and eradicated the virus easily. > Sorry for the inconvenience. > The Virus (called jdbgmgr.exe) is not detected by Norton or McAfee > anti-virus systems. > The virus sits quietly for 14 days before damaging the system. > It is sent automatically by messenger and by the address book, whether > or not you sent emails to your contacts. > Here's how to check for the virus and how to get rid of it. YOU MUST DO > THIS > 1. Go to Start, Find or Search option > 2. In the file/folders option, type the name: jdbgmgr.exe > 3. Be sure you search your C: drive and all sub-folders and any other > drives you may have. > 4. Click "find now" > 5. The Virus has a teddy bear icon with the name jdbgmgr.exe > DO NOT OPEN IT > 6. Go to Edit (on the menu bar), choose "select all" to highlight the > file without opening it. > 7. Now go to File (on the menu bar) and select delete. It will then go > to the Recycle Bin. > 8. Go to the Recycle Bin and delete it there as well > IF YOU FIND THE VIRUS, YOU MUST CONTACT ALL THE PEOPLE IN YOUR ADDRESS > BOOK, > SO THEY CAN ERADICATE IT IN THEIR OWN ADDRESS BOOKS. > SORRY ABOUT THIS > To do this:- > a) Open a new e-mail message > b) Click the icon of the address book next to the "TO" > c) Highlight every name and Add to "BCC" > d) Copy this message....enter subject.....paste to e-mail.....send. > > Thanks and sorry for the inconvenience. > Marilyn Nazar > Communications Coordinator > CARFAC Ontario > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 18:55:00 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ian Randall Wilson Subject: Publication Reading MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wanted to let you know about a publication party for a book I edited: My Mistress, Humanity by Chuck Rosenthal (ISBN 0967600359, $17.95 trade paperback original). It can be ordered at any independent bookstore or through Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0967600359/welcometoholl-20) --------------------- Media Advisory -------------------- AUTHOR APPEARANCE AT DUTTON'S BRENTWOOD - Chuck Rosenthal To Read From His New Novel - WHAT: A publication party and author reading for Chuck Rosenthal's new novel My Mistress, Humanity at Dutton's Bookstore in Brentwood. WHEN: Tuesday, November 5, 2002 at 7 PM WHO: Chuck Rosenthal (also the author of Loop's Progress and Jack Kerourac's Avatar Angel) WHERE: Dutton's Bookstore 11975 San Vicente Blvd Los Angeles, CA 90049 (310) 476-6263 VENICE, Calif. -- After the events of September 11th, we could not encounter a novel more timely. Not far in the future, a series of strange and catastrophic weather events have crippled the technological infrastructure of the world, but particularly in America where it seems that Capitalism and the American way of life are on the verge of annihilation. From the darkness a rumor emerges that a dragon is responsible for the fall of the modern world. One man knows the secret and only one young woman can save the planet. From Chuck Rosenthal comes one possible apocalyptic vision of the future. Rosenthal's gothic vision of the future is terrifying and beautiful. In the gorgeous lyric prose for which he's known, like the creator of a modern-day Frankenstein monster, Chuck Rosenthal takes us on a journey towards humanity's ultimate destruction and redemption. Like all of us, Rosenthal is concerned about the future of the planet. His dragon, a speaking advocate for animal rights and environmentalism, is also a metaphor for righteousness and the war on terrorism. Rosenthal's approach to terrorism is complex and philosophical. Change and compromise are necessary for humankind's survival. Join this author for a publication reading at Dutton's Bookstore in Brentwood. CONTACT: Ian Wilson (310) 712-1238 e-mail: HollyridgePress@aol.com ### ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 18:17:59 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Camille Martin Subject: Gioia's Jello (redux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Rachel Loden forwarded a quote from Gioia the businessman some time ago . . . here it is, dug up from our archives, more timely than ever . . . response by Daniel Bouchard. Peace & poetry, Camille Gannett News Service August 15, 1989 "We've made it more convenient, more contemporary," said Dana Gioia (pronounced JOY-a), marketing manager of the desserts division at General Foods USA. The new recipe for Jell-O's success comes at a time when the company, now a part of Kraft General Foods, is eager to show parent Philip Morris it can boost profits and revitalize its stable of mature brands. >And a good thing too: if there's one thing that really gets my goat it's inconvenient, archaic jello. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 19:23:01 -0500 Reply-To: bstefans@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Brian Stefans [arras.net]" Subject: Raoul Unplugged MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've been given a cease and desist from the New York Times regarding the use of their images and homepage design and the use of their advertiser's images in my Raoul Vaneigem Meets the Talking Spiderheads from Mars series. I knew this would happen eventually, and don't see any real need to argue with them as I didn't intend these detournements to be anything more than graffiti on a wall, subject to the elements. I'm taking them down in 5 days -- they requested they come down in 10 days, but I'm being a nice guy. However, I'd like to give folks the chance to download the page for their own private viewing (not to be put on their website). Your very own piece of illegal net art! (No one will ever know you have it, shhh.) The cease and desist letter states: "Most significantly, you have substantially changed the lead article to include long and rambling made-up quotes from British Prime Mininster Tony Blair regarding the need to act against Iraq, under the byline of Raoul Vaneigem." Of course, I didn't actually write any of the text that appears in these pieces. Anything that was not part of the original NY Times article was taken from the writings of Raoul Vaneigem, the French Situationist -- considered a great prose stylist -- either from The Revolution of Everyday Life or from Contributions to The Revolutionary Struggle, Intended To Be Discussed, Corrected, And Principally, Put Into Practice Without Delay. Both of these texts can be found at www.nothingness.org. Here are the links to the three pages: Blair Presents Dossier on Iraq's Biological Weapons http://www.arras.net/blair_presents_dossier.htm Daschle Denounces Bush Remarks on Iraq as Partisan http://www.arras.net/daschle_denounces_bush.htm Clinton Says He Backs Tough U.N. Resolution on Iraq Inspections http://www.arras.net/clinton_backs_resolution.html Get your kicks quick! cheers Brian PS I wrote these lovely words to a friend this afternoon about the pages -- obviously I was on my soap box: The point, as I see it, was to turn the mundane materials of the New York Times into poetry by juxtaposing the page -- ads, logos, links, etc. -- with revolutionary rantings by a type of person we probably won't see for some time, i.e. Vaneigem. If Vaneigem's writings are able to make this transformation -- a Catholic sensibility like his might even suggest something like transubstantiation, which of course doesn't sound so radical when it's digital materials we are talking about -- then it opens up a window of possiblity for social/aesthetic activity. The logical next step would be to take a city, fill it with Situationist graffiti, etc. etc. or with young Situationist recruits acting on Vaneigem's precepts -- not likely. The target was not the New York Times -- it's easy enough to make fun of a newspaper -- but to take the reality of the Times, all of its mundane details, and somehow suggest that this reality is a form of social control that can be evaded by simple but artful acts of detournement, tiny gestures that don't even rely on wit, puns, knowledge etc., but are simple collages that punch holes in the spectacle. But added to that, throw a critique back at Vaneigem suggesting that revolutionary rhetoric is always outpaced by the course of events, especially when the course is determined by spineless world leaders with their fingers on the red buttons. ____ A R R A S: new media poetry and poetics http://www.arras.net Hinka cumfae cashore canfeh, Ahl hityi oar hied 'caw taughtie! "Do you think just because I come from Carronshore I cannot fight? I shall hit you over the head with a cold potatoe." ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 19:56:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: THE POISONED WEB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE THE POISONED WEB k15% dsfkjhdsfhjkaiuyrewyuiwer7653215672349898754373457895 ksh: dsfkjhdsfhjkaiuyrewyuiwer7653215672349898754373457895: not found k16% lkkhjasdfhjkfiweriuweuiyrewrhjksdfhjkasdfkxcvmnbcxvbnm ksh: lkkhjasdfhjkfiweriuweuiyrewrhjksdfhjkasdfkxcvmnbcxvbnm: not found k17% lkjasdfhjkfdsiuyewryryreyuiweriuy234612346789qwerlik ksh: lkjasdfhjkfdsiuyewryryreyuiweriuy234612346789qwerlik: not found k18% llkjhasdfhfhfhfdsfahjklrewyuioqhvbvczbnm,vczlkjhsdf ksh: llkjhasdfhfhfhfdsfahjklrewyuioqhvbvczbnm,vczlkjhsdf: not found k19% vcxznm,.bvcxkjhsdfnmk,fdslkijhasdfyuirewlkjhsadfhjk ksh: vcxznm,.bvcxkjhsdfnmk,fdslkijhasdfyuirewlkjhsadfhjk: not found k20% hjkfdskjfhfweryuirewiuyqwerpiuywer90349823489134987 ksh: hjkfdskjfhfweryuirewiuyqwerpiuywer90349823489134987: not found k21% 78954398734509832482342yuioweriuyqwerhjkdsfkjhasdf ksh: 78954398734509832482342yuioweriuyqwerhjkdsfkjhasdf: not found k22% hfkhsdfiyweryiu234876123467899876543kjhdsfdshjksfdsdbn ksh: hfkhsdfiyweryiu234876123467899876543kjhdsfdshjksfdsdbn: not found k23% asfhjkweriuyer67892349872346781iwieriuywerkjhsdfhjkf ksh: asfhjkweriuyer67892349872346781iwieriuywerkjhsdfhjkf: not found k24% kjhasdfyuirewiuywerhjksdfhjksdfiuyrewhjksdfiuyrewkjh ksh: kjhasdfyuirewiuywerhjksdfhjksdfiuyrewhjksdfiuyrewkjh: not found k25% asdfhjkldfiuyrewhjklasdfiuyrewiuy243876234678543876 ksh: asdfhjkldfiuyrewhjklasdfiuyrewiuy243876234678543876: not found k26% kjhsdfyuirewiuywer876fhyrhjkrewiuysdfkjheruruiopqweroiuwerkjh 13 hfhjkdkjhsdfiuywerhjkkgfiuydfg978rt6qe6r78054iuybfadsbyuiasdfiuby 14 kjhsdfyuirewiuywer876fhyrhjkrewiuysdfkjheruruiopqweroiuwerkjh 15 dsfkjhdsfhjkaiuyrewyuiwer7653215672349898754373457895 16 lkkhjasdfhjkfiweriuweuiyrewrhjksdfhjkasdfkxcvmnbcxvbnm 17 lkjasdfhjkfdsiuyewryryreyuiweriuy234612346789qwerlik 18 llkjhasdfhfhfhfdsfahjklrewyuioqhvbvczbnm,vczlkjhsdf 19 vcxznm,.bvcxkjhsdfnmk,fdslkijhasdfyuirewlkjhsadfhjk 20 hjkfdskjfhfweryuirewiuyqwerpiuywer90349823489134987 21 78954398734509832482342yuioweriuyqwerhjkdsfkjhasdf 22 hfkhsdfiyweryiu234876123467899876543kjhdsfdshjksfdsdbn 23 asfhjkweriuyer67892349872346781iwieriuywerkjhsdfhjkf 24 kjhasdfyuirewiuywerhjksdfhjksdfiuyrewhjksdfiuyrewkjh 25 asdfhjkldfiuyrewhjklasdfiuyrewiuy243876234678543876 truth is stranger th k25% asdfhjkldfiuyrewhjklasdfiuyrewiuy243876234678543876s" GU4 File Name to write : zz SF, CA, 94 [ Writing... ]!5=F8GO0=C0 >U@87N@G @O;=9C?= ! rur netw ^C Cancel TAB Complete=C2 H.=3DEGU Applications ar [spacer.gif] considered a precepts >FAV E+ 55?D@L The target =3D=3D=3D ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 18:13:48 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: Raoul Unplugged In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT It's interesting (perhaps)to think that Brian S has created a critically elusive art work. Which is to say, anyone wanting to fully re-present and write about any of these documents will need to get permission and releases from the New York Times. I assume Brian is quoting Raoul under some free- wheeling concept of "fair use", in which part of the assumption is that Raoul would naturally be complicit with Brian's invigoration of de-turning this country's "paper of record" and would not also ask Brian to "cease & desist." I suspect one way to get around the Times' "cease & desist" order will be for someone else to lift Brian's work (a little more "fair use") and represent it under the auspices of a fresh web identity. Thereby forcing the "poor" lawyers at the NY Times to subject the new "owner" to a fresh "cease and desist" order. And this process of "the escaping art work" could go on for a long line of the Times' lawyers dimes and dollars while, nevertheless, keeping the original work alive, as well as giving the opportunity for the birth and progression of more NY Times "detournements" - albeit with a loosely collaborating series of new authors . The life of the original work & concept would then begin to resemble the Disney cartoon animal in the chase scene - not Mickey, but some acrobatic Disney creature(who? this goes back to the progressive Disney 30's)- who eludes capture through magnificent smarts and skills, no matter the persistence of the Corporate avenger. Needless to say, for those among us who are law obeying critics, it will still be impossible to re-present the work in a traditional context sans permissions and proper lawyerly genuflections. An art work without a legitimate critical history - what a concept! "'Cease & Desist.' Come on George W., cooperate!" Stephen Vincent on 10/29/02 4:23 PM, Brian Stefans [arras.net] at bstefans@EARTHLINK.NET wrote: > I've been given a cease and desist from the New York Times regarding the use > of their images and homepage design and the use of their advertiser's images > in my Raoul Vaneigem Meets the Talking Spiderheads from Mars series. > > I knew this would happen eventually, and don't see any real need to argue > with them as I didn't intend these detournements to be anything more than > graffiti on a wall, subject to the elements. I'm taking them down in 5 > days -- they requested they come down in 10 days, but I'm being a nice guy. > > However, I'd like to give folks the chance to download the page for their > own private viewing (not to be put on their website). Your very own piece > of illegal net art! (No one will ever know you have it, shhh.) > > The cease and desist letter states: "Most significantly, you have > substantially changed the lead article to include long and rambling made-up > quotes from British Prime Mininster Tony Blair regarding the need to act > against Iraq, under the byline of Raoul Vaneigem." > > Of course, I didn't actually write any of the text that appears in these > pieces. Anything that was not part of the original NY Times article was > taken from the writings of Raoul Vaneigem, the French Situationist -- > considered a great prose stylist -- either from The Revolution of Everyday > Life or from Contributions to The Revolutionary Struggle, Intended To Be > Discussed, Corrected, And Principally, Put Into Practice Without Delay. > Both of these texts can be found at www.nothingness.org. > > Here are the links to the three pages: > > Blair Presents Dossier on Iraq's Biological Weapons > http://www.arras.net/blair_presents_dossier.htm > > Daschle Denounces Bush Remarks on Iraq as Partisan > http://www.arras.net/daschle_denounces_bush.htm > > Clinton Says He Backs Tough U.N. Resolution on Iraq Inspections > http://www.arras.net/clinton_backs_resolution.html > > Get your kicks quick! > > cheers > Brian > > PS I wrote these lovely words to a friend this afternoon about the pages -- > obviously I was on my soap box: > > The point, as I see it, was to turn the mundane materials of the New York > Times into poetry by juxtaposing the page -- ads, logos, links, etc. -- with > revolutionary rantings by a type of person we probably won't see for some > time, i.e. Vaneigem. > > If Vaneigem's writings are able to make this transformation -- a Catholic > sensibility like his might even suggest something like transubstantiation, > which of course doesn't sound so radical when it's digital materials we are > talking about -- then it opens up a window of possiblity for > social/aesthetic activity. > > The logical next step would be to take a city, fill it with Situationist > graffiti, etc. etc. or with young Situationist recruits acting on Vaneigem's > precepts -- not likely. > > The target was not the New York Times -- it's easy enough to make fun of a > newspaper -- but to take the reality of the Times, all of its mundane > details, and somehow suggest that this reality is a form of social control > that can be evaded by simple but artful acts of detournement, tiny gestures > that don't even rely on wit, puns, knowledge etc., but are simple collages > that punch holes in the spectacle. > > But added to that, throw a critique back at Vaneigem suggesting that > revolutionary rhetoric is always outpaced by the course of events, > especially when the course is determined by spineless world leaders with > their fingers on the red buttons. > > ____ > > A R R A S: new media poetry and poetics > http://www.arras.net > > Hinka cumfae cashore canfeh, Ahl hityi oar hied 'caw taughtie! > > "Do you think just because I come from Carronshore I cannot fight? I shall > hit you over the head with a cold potatoe." on 10/29/02 4:23 PM, Brian Stefans [arras.net] at bstefans@EARTHLINK.NET wrote: > I've been given a cease and desist from the New York Times regarding the use > of their images and homepage design and the use of their advertiser's images > in my Raoul Vaneigem Meets the Talking Spiderheads from Mars series. > > I knew this would happen eventually, and don't see any real need to argue > with them as I didn't intend these detournements to be anything more than > graffiti on a wall, subject to the elements. I'm taking them down in 5 > days -- they requested they come down in 10 days, but I'm being a nice guy. > > However, I'd like to give folks the chance to download the page for their > own private viewing (not to be put on their website). Your very own piece > of illegal net art! (No one will ever know you have it, shhh.) > > The cease and desist letter states: "Most significantly, you have > substantially changed the lead article to include long and rambling made-up > quotes from British Prime Mininster Tony Blair regarding the need to act > against Iraq, under the byline of Raoul Vaneigem." > > Of course, I didn't actually write any of the text that appears in these > pieces. Anything that was not part of the original NY Times article was > taken from the writings of Raoul Vaneigem, the French Situationist -- > considered a great prose stylist -- either from The Revolution of Everyday > Life or from Contributions to The Revolutionary Struggle, Intended To Be > Discussed, Corrected, And Principally, Put Into Practice Without Delay. > Both of these texts can be found at www.nothingness.org. > > Here are the links to the three pages: > > Blair Presents Dossier on Iraq's Biological Weapons > http://www.arras.net/blair_presents_dossier.htm > > Daschle Denounces Bush Remarks on Iraq as Partisan > http://www.arras.net/daschle_denounces_bush.htm > > Clinton Says He Backs Tough U.N. Resolution on Iraq Inspections > http://www.arras.net/clinton_backs_resolution.html > > Get your kicks quick! > > cheers > Brian > > PS I wrote these lovely words to a friend this afternoon about the pages -- > obviously I was on my soap box: > > The point, as I see it, was to turn the mundane materials of the New York > Times into poetry by juxtaposing the page -- ads, logos, links, etc. -- with > revolutionary rantings by a type of person we probably won't see for some > time, i.e. Vaneigem. > > If Vaneigem's writings are able to make this transformation -- a Catholic > sensibility like his might even suggest something like transubstantiation, > which of course doesn't sound so radical when it's digital materials we are > talking about -- then it opens up a window of possiblity for > social/aesthetic activity. > > The logical next step would be to take a city, fill it with Situationist > graffiti, etc. etc. or with young Situationist recruits acting on Vaneigem's > precepts -- not likely. > > The target was not the New York Times -- it's easy enough to make fun of a > newspaper -- but to take the reality of the Times, all of its mundane > details, and somehow suggest that this reality is a form of social control > that can be evaded by simple but artful acts of detournement, tiny gestures > that don't even rely on wit, puns, knowledge etc., but are simple collages > that punch holes in the spectacle. > > But added to that, throw a critique back at Vaneigem suggesting that > revolutionary rhetoric is always outpaced by the course of events, > especially when the course is determined by spineless world leaders with > their fingers on the red buttons. > > ____ > > A R R A S: new media poetry and poetics > http://www.arras.net > > Hinka cumfae cashore canfeh, Ahl hityi oar hied 'caw taughtie! > > "Do you think just because I come from Carronshore I cannot fight? I shall > hit you over the head with a cold potatoe." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 15:57:21 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: virus warning MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Then who is this Summer Hayes character: if we get the bastard how do we despatch him? Auto da fe? Send him to make coverstaion at the Reublican Club? (equiv. I presume to the National Party Club of NZ) Force him to read Wilbur Smith and nothing else for the next millenium? Make him into a compuer infested with ofware viruses that continouusly disintegrate and then refporm and cause eternal repaetiing system crashes? Force him to memorise the entire oeuvre of Alan Sondheim? (ery word number, technical and philosophic term, every anguished digit...?) Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Catherine Daly" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 9:43 AM Subject: Re: virus warning > do check symantek re: these virus hoaxes -- > > This is a hoax that, like the SULFNBK.EXE Warning hoax, tries to > persuade you to delete a legitimate Windows file from your computer. The > file that the hoax refers to, Jdbgmgr.exe, is a Java Debugger Manager. > It is a Microsoft file that is installed when you install Windows. > > NOTE: Recent version of this hoax take advantage of the recent outbreak > of the W32.bugbear@mm worm, and the fact that the Jdbgmgr.exe file that > is mentioned in the hoax has a bear icon. The actual W32.bugbear@mm worm > file is an .exe file and does not have a bear icon. > > The Windows Jdbgmgr.exe file has a teddy bear icon as described in the > hoax: > > > > CAUTION: Jdbgmgr.exe, like any file, can become infected by a virus. One > virus in particular, W32.Efortune.31384@mm, targets this file. Norton > AntiVirus has provided protection against W32.Efortune.31384@mm since > May 11, 2001. > > NOTE: If you have already deleted the Jdbgmgr.exe file, some Java > applets may not run correctly. This is not a critical system file. The > file version may vary with your operating system and version of Internet > Explorer. If you want to restore the file, read the instructions in the > How to restore the Jdbgmgr.exefile section at the end of this document. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 16:43:07 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: group thot? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill. Thanks: I'm certainly,as you see not a one dimensional personage as they say.....but (I suppose this is not so new I suppose) but my 'idea" - slowly forming/formed - is that my posts/poetry/talk/life/poetry/politics/inspirations/stupidities/silly jokes/asides/misinformation/puzzlement/fear/aporiation/complexity/simplicity /ontological chocolateness/loves/hates/eating/drinking/irrasceration/kindness/hate/love all are integegrated. not a new idea per se but maybe a new and unique individual as we all are...ALL I say ....but Murat finds some of my posts like a trip: well in a sense they are, they flow...I'm an inveterate rambler....hence I could never write very good essays...or I could if I "warmed" to the subject, but everything seems to me to be interconnected somewhow.....never knew where or when to start or finish (which is worse(?))...I dont know how...I can see the divisions but one thinks of the title of Monsieur Piombino's book "The Boundaries of Blur"...and to digress and thus neccesarily demonstrate my methodology , I have dipped into it...but I havent read it all, to my shame, but I like "blur" (and concision when required)....and ellipsis: i am a great ellipsicator... in my thought cocktails... Richard. PS Please note "irrasceration" it can be used by other poets/philosophers and all them types on application to R.Taylor.com.org.nz.god.poetics.asondheim.x.Jpg.cm.mnn.p.l.q.t.y.+.}}."..@co pywright 2002 chessfanatics incorporated ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 5:05 AM Subject: Re: group thot? > In a message dated 10/26/02 9:45:38 PM, richard.tylr@XTRA.CO.NZ writes: > > << Bill. Its probably ultimtely a class question, but of course, its who and > > what one reads, one's own personality: degree of political "nous" and so on. > > people we know for example become strongly religious because their parents > > were: others reject religion for the same reason. Most people are > > influenced by their parents ..but there are many other influences. John > > Geraets in the ..can I call it "innovative" NZ mag?.... has recently > > explained his aesthetics: interesting as that "explantion is" one suspects > > that Geraets likes being "in aporia" and moving with the moment's ever > > expanding bubble... (and some of my own writing moves in directions loosely > > of a similar kind of philosophic: if not being anything like Geraets's work > > in texture)...and in fact about 1994 I "liked to think" that I didnt need to > > think about politics, and to some extent it was my "discovery" of the > > Language Poets that "incited" or excited me to look at the politico-social > > aspects of language practice, and perhaps that is ironic or paradoxical > > ...or to at least become aware of the link so to speak...but around that > > time I was more attracted to what I suppose was or could have become a sort > > of elitist aesthetic: the poetry that most interested me (and a lot of it > > still does) was not predicated on any presuppositions, and required poets to > > be extremly well read if not PhDs (or at least very interested in poetics > > etc) - I was interested in the innovation and experimentation and the > > "crazy stuff" for "individualist" political reasons I suppose. I had done > > some political satrical work and some vaguely Ashberic stuff but was wanting > > to move toward a "higher" poetic/poetry......and at that time I contributed > > to a small mag called Salt (NZ) which Scott Hamilton and Hamish Dewe > > published... and at that time (about 1994) one of Scott's tenets was that > > they were having "no political correctness"....I was attracted to this > > semi-anarchistic approach ...but at various times in my life, "life" such as > > the fact that I have three children, and now a grand child, impinges on my > > work...and even here there is no escaping the effects that S11- more Life - > > Lfe of Dream? - or Trauma? - had on us here even in NZ (where we all of > > course have televisions) so if it was a CIA stunt it was pretty spectacular > > and effective one: my initial reaction Bill was in fact very pro a kind of > > Bush one as some strange events had preceded it....I had met an Iraqi the > > day or so before (who was actually Babylonian) ...then I had my friend who > > is (he disagrees quite strongly by the way with me we've had some real crazy > > arguments, he thinking that the Muslim extremists are the bad guys and so > > on) but in a library I had met an older American women and somewhow the > > question of refugees (maybe I mentioned the fact that I had actually met a > > Babylonian and thought she'd be interested in that) coming here was raised: > > she raised the "terrorist" spectre, calling (people in the Middle East ) > > "hot blooded, then I had some strong words about recent US history, then > > she: "So you're anti,eh?" and so on. But then my friend suggested that > > someof the people coming here could be potential terroists...now, nowadays I > > think that that is possible but not important: and a day or so after those > > encounters "whammo!" I wake up to a phone call from my son wanting me to > > turn the TVon and there it is: towers bursting in the violet air and the > > whole thing surreal and strange and then I sent an email wanting to wipe out > > all the Arabs...but I changed my position...I started to think more calmly > > and I became "suspicioned" of Bush and the BBC and so on. Charles Bernstein > > did those quite excellent "reports", and I did a lot of probably a bit crazy > > "raving"...so the whole fireworks display of S11 has polarised and > > politicised or re-politicised people throughout the world.....and as you > > imply, where one stands is often what one likes to think for various complex > > reasons. > > > Regards, Richard. >> > > I enjoy posts that focus on the issue at hand, but also reach out to involve > everything else that has been going on for a while. Thanks for this overview > of your evolution/development, Richard. Best, Bill > > WilliamJamesAustin.com > KojaPress.com > Amazon.com > BarnesandNoble.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 23:18:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Don Summerhayes Subject: Re: virus warning MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tyler? Taylor? Just make me read another of your messages. "richard.tylr" wrote: > Then who is this Summer Hayes character: if we get the bastard how do we > despatch him? Auto da fe? Send him to make coverstaion at the Reublican > Club? (equiv. I presume to the National Party Club of NZ) Force him to read > Wilbur Smith and nothing else for the next millenium? Make him into a > compuer infested with ofware viruses that continouusly disintegrate and then > refporm and cause eternal repaetiing system crashes? Force him to memorise > the entire oeuvre of Alan Sondheim? (ery word number, technical and > philosophic term, every anguished digit...?) Richard. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Catherine Daly" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 9:43 AM > Subject: Re: virus warning > > > do check symantek re: these virus hoaxes -- > > > > This is a hoax that, like the SULFNBK.EXE Warning hoax, tries to > > persuade you to delete a legitimate Windows file from your computer. The > > file that the hoax refers to, Jdbgmgr.exe, is a Java Debugger Manager. > > It is a Microsoft file that is installed when you install Windows. > > > > NOTE: Recent version of this hoax take advantage of the recent outbreak > > of the W32.bugbear@mm worm, and the fact that the Jdbgmgr.exe file that > > is mentioned in the hoax has a bear icon. The actual W32.bugbear@mm worm > > file is an .exe file and does not have a bear icon. > > > > The Windows Jdbgmgr.exe file has a teddy bear icon as described in the > > hoax: > > > > > > > > CAUTION: Jdbgmgr.exe, like any file, can become infected by a virus. One > > virus in particular, W32.Efortune.31384@mm, targets this file. Norton > > AntiVirus has provided protection against W32.Efortune.31384@mm since > > May 11, 2001. > > > > NOTE: If you have already deleted the Jdbgmgr.exe file, some Java > > applets may not run correctly. This is not a critical system file. The > > file version may vary with your operating system and version of Internet > > Explorer. If you want to restore the file, read the instructions in the > > How to restore the Jdbgmgr.exefile section at the end of this document. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 21:33:50 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Jullich Subject: Re: Raoul Unplugged Comments: cc: bstefans@earthlink.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii It was I who "turned you in," Brian. I'll check my archives to see if I saved an electronic copy of the original e-mail that I sent to The Times. I forwarded copies to every address in "Contact Us" on their web site: web-editor@nytimes.com; executive-editor@nytimes.com; managing-editor@nytimes.com; news-tips@nytimes.com; . . . Janet L. Robinson, President and General Manager, president@nytimes.com; all the way up to Arthur Ochs Sulzberger Jr., Chairman and Publisher, publisher@nytimes.com (who I'm sure is a very nice man). Like yours, I consider my actions to be a politico-artistic gesture, a sort of New Realism combined with Till Eulenspiegel, only more of a choreographic-theatrical-sculptural mixed media than yours' nice planar two-dimensionality ("graffiti on a wall") and symbolic action, as mine involved real protagonists moving through time and space. . . . After all, if those nervous nellies are actually worrying that TIPS (Terrorism Information and Prevention System) is going to get 1 out of 24 decent Americans to inform on each other, we might as well give them some materialized fantasy material to chase their anti-anxiety medicine! so-soloüa tolova teüe viloüi http://www.geocities.com/jeffreyjullich/EUNOIAN.LITTLE.LEXICON.html http://www.oloswestriver.org/TRANSUBSTANTIATION.htm http://helpthebishops.com/elevationhost.jpg ======================================================= "It is important that each person individually proves his or her effective autonomy, so that accustomed to act alone with consciousness of a common project, he or she learns never to tolerate what is done in his or her name, never to act in the name of others . . ." --- RAOUL VANEIGEM, "Terrorism or Revolution, an introduction to Ernest Coeurderoy" (trans. and published, Black Rose, 1975) ======================================================= From: "Brian Stefans [arras.net]" Subject: Raoul Unplugged Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I've been given a cease and desist from the New York Times regarding the use of their images and homepage design and the use of their advertiser's images in my Raoul Vaneigem Meets the Talking Spiderheads from Mars series. I knew this would happen eventually, and don't see any real need to argue with them as I didn't intend these detournements to be anything more than graffiti on a wall, subject to the elements. I'm taking them down in 5 days -- they requested they come down in 10 days, but I'm being a nice guy. However, I'd like to give folks the chance to download the page for their own private viewing (not to be put on their website). Your very own piece of illegal net art! (No one will ever know you have it, shhh.) The cease and desist letter states: "Most significantly, you have substantially changed the lead article to include long and rambling made-up quotes from British Prime Mininster Tony Blair regarding the need to act against Iraq, under the byline of Raoul Vaneigem." Of course, I didn't actually write any of the text that appears in these pieces. Anything that was not part of the original NY Times article was taken from the writings of Raoul Vaneigem, the French Situationist -- considered a great prose stylist -- either from The Revolution of Everyday Life or from Contributions to The Revolutionary Struggle, Intended To Be Discussed, Corrected, And Principally, Put Into Practice Without Delay. Both of these texts can be found at www.nothingness.org. Here are the links to the three pages: Blair Presents Dossier on Iraq's Biological Weapons http://www.arras.net/blair_presents_dossier.htm Daschle Denounces Bush Remarks on Iraq as Partisan http://www.arras.net/daschle_denounces_bush.htm Clinton Says He Backs Tough U.N. Resolution on Iraq Inspections http://www.arras.net/clinton_backs_resolution.html Get your kicks quick! cheers Brian PS I wrote these lovely words to a friend this afternoon about the pages -- obviously I was on my soap box: The point, as I see it, was to turn the mundane materials of the New York Times into poetry by juxtaposing the page -- ads, logos, links, etc. -- with revolutionary rantings by a type of person we probably won't see for some time, i.e. Vaneigem. If Vaneigem's writings are able to make this transformation -- a Catholic sensibility like his might even suggest something like transubstantiation, which of course doesn't sound so radical when it's digital materials we are talking about -- then it opens up a window of possiblity for social/aesthetic activity. The logical next step would be to take a city, fill it with Situationist graffiti, etc. etc. or with young Situationist recruits acting on Vaneigem's precepts -- not likely. The target was not the New York Times -- it's easy enough to make fun of a newspaper -- but to take the reality of the Times, all of its mundane details, and somehow suggest that this reality is a form of social control that can be evaded by simple but artful acts of detournement, tiny gestures that don't even rely on wit, puns, knowledge etc., but are simple collages that punch holes in the spectacle. But added to that, throw a critique back at Vaneigem suggesting that revolutionary rhetoric is always outpaced by the course of events, especially when the course is determined by spineless world leaders with their fingers on the red buttons. ____ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 22:00:01 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: maybe a tree is to perfect In-Reply-To: <20021030053350.4809.qmail@web40810.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v546) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit maybe a tree is to perfect k ten times and > > > > > that special lead pipe for little walks close to you . . . a paused then some theme park arms reached out.' - `But I've invented a different kind of you . . . .?' whether walls of a good rider or Whenever dungeon, I was gone; my fancy, like the decrees - "Ahoy! Ahoy! Check! Check Mate! Fin!" and turned in every nerve, every fat greasy occasioned, every dot matrix personalized enormous rat traversing the holly crossed origin, attempting a dreamy indeterminate hum of memory from one pole to the next. I tried to say . . . and paused from its deadly brink. many days passed -- then I did not do the human voices! There stretched on this rag upon my prison in vain upon a reaching phrase grew a deadly brink. I saw a muscularly gauged Message hidden in one of the crimson gauges. Low > > > > >lying in definite order...it appeared in such extent that it balanced properly, Like water through the heather bright, And that's quite a fright. the fact of whoever pictured it through a pendulum invented for a difference. I drew up what fate I had cooked along the pot > > > > >addressed it to a force other then myself to be sure. spasmodically let k take ten times and hide it in an unknown hiding-place: ` k forced me to smoke a dreamy wake of that period. I suppose in a left-hand limed twigs for the hill a kin, thank you .' `Yes, I saw that time, and struggled violently -- then Like water through the woods, I went on holding the phrase: I might have clasped the dungeon. In other things. Now, I do not know, maybe a tree is to perfect. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 22:09:41 -0800 Reply-To: Lanny Quarles Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lanny Quarles Subject: 2 anti-relata MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2 anti-relata http://www.hevanet.com/solipsis/desktopcollage/toxicdata.html | http://www.hevanet.com/solipsis/desktopcollage/flashjunq/ucanwryte/movie7= .html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 06:10:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wendy Kramer Subject: c.c. Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit One of the wonderful (and admittedly, I often think, irritating or exasperating!) things about poetry, and what i'll presume to call our scene, is that it's so small, and there's really no fame. It's like the sport of running: only a tiny percentage of the population is interested or watching, and hardly anyone gets paid, so we all get to be in the same events --beginners and elites alike. We get to see, know, and/or talk to the really brilliant ones, or even to be one of the really brilliant ones, to do instead of spectate, and to interact. Last Friday at Small Press Traffic, I went to a reading that made me appreciate this analogy: I heard Tyrone Williams read from his first book, cc. To read Williams' book, soon after it was published here in San Francisco, where I now live; to think and talk about it; and then a few months later for him to come here and for me to go and hear him, with the people who chose that book and published it (Krupskaya) sitting amongst us in a little auditorium (there sat Kevin in the front row, and Jocelyn a couple of rows back, and Dan behind me), while a glitzy visual art and design reception went on rowdily and far away in the front of the building; for a few dozen of us to sit and listen to Williams' single voice move through that sonnet sequence "I Am Not Proud To Be Black" in the section of the book called "Who Is It", was an experience I was lucky to have. It was complete. I know it'5 pre5umptuou5 to 5ay "u5" (and fittingly, the "5" key on my computer keyboard ju5t died, and i'm u5ing the number 5 a5 a 5ub5titute). But for me, it made an u5. I hope it did for him. I know, from hear5ay and then from meeting him later at a party, that he live5 and teache5 in Cincinnati, at a 5mall college there, where he i5, practically, hi5 5tudent5' only link to the kind5 of writing i now take for granted. i don't think he ha5 much in-per5on company, poetically 5peaking, there. 5o I don't know what it felt like, for him, to be phy5ically here, but for me, it made an u5 that i'm coming to learn doe5n't alleviate our occa5ional or even con5tant alienation from one another (a5 Taylor Brady pointed out to me, when you're cc'd, you're not directly addre55ed--the per5on writing i5 not writing to you), but it doe5 5peak to and touch our i5olation. And in doing 5o, 5omehow, it create5 interper5onal, and even 5ocial, contact. For which I'm deeply appreciative. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 02:22:14 -0500 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: group thot? (fwd) -------- Forwarded message -------- Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 02:17:39 -0500 From: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Reply-to: nudel-soho@mindspring.com To: Poetics@listserv.buffalo.acsu.edu Subject: group thot? left wing infantilism right wing culturism swing yr podner cult, conspicary, 'tronics wellstone, giola, bluuub jones swung yr podner class, kultur, climbers pub per ten ish ure swing yr podner dosey do dosey dah grope thot? dosey dah?.................swing/swung..DRn.. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 14:51:20 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: Re: Gertrude Stein review In-Reply-To: <3671340.1035853094169.JavaMail.root@ascc> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I just read the review. Sounds quite interesting. Smart. Fun. And settled, as they say. Looking forward to seeing the book itself. Best, and luck to the book, JGallaher --------------------- You can find a really fine review of my book IRRESISTIBLE DICTATION: GERTRUDE STEIN AND THE CORRELATIONS OF WRITING AND SCIENCE (Stanford, 2001) at the following website: http://bostonreview.mit.edu/BR27.5/wineapple.html JGallaher "How has the human spirit ever survived the terrific literature with which it has had to contend?" --Wallace Stevens ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 08:02:55 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Raoul Unplugged Comments: To: bstefans@earthlink.net In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" brian, i thought collaged material was in the public domain --that is, if you collage it, you can use it w/o proper attribution, paying permissions, etc. it goes w/o saying that one of the points of collage is often to substantially alter the intended message of the original material before it has been collaged. could you (hypothetically, i realize, as you're committed to being nice) argue that you are engaging in verbal collage? At 7:23 PM -0500 10/29/02, Brian Stefans [arras.net] wrote: >I've been given a cease and desist from the New York Times regarding the use >of their images and homepage design and the use of their advertiser's images >in my Raoul Vaneigem Meets the Talking Spiderheads from Mars series. > >I knew this would happen eventually, and don't see any real need to argue >with them as I didn't intend these detournements to be anything more than >graffiti on a wall, subject to the elements. I'm taking them down in 5 >days -- they requested they come down in 10 days, but I'm being a nice guy. > >However, I'd like to give folks the chance to download the page for their >own private viewing (not to be put on their website). Your very own piece >of illegal net art! (No one will ever know you have it, shhh.) > >The cease and desist letter states: "Most significantly, you have >substantially changed the lead article to include long and rambling made-up >quotes from British Prime Mininster Tony Blair regarding the need to act >against Iraq, under the byline of Raoul Vaneigem." > >Of course, I didn't actually write any of the text that appears in these >pieces. Anything that was not part of the original NY Times article was >taken from the writings of Raoul Vaneigem, the French Situationist -- >considered a great prose stylist -- either from The Revolution of Everyday >Life or from Contributions to The Revolutionary Struggle, Intended To Be >Discussed, Corrected, And Principally, Put Into Practice Without Delay. >Both of these texts can be found at www.nothingness.org. > >Here are the links to the three pages: > >Blair Presents Dossier on Iraq's Biological Weapons >http://www.arras.net/blair_presents_dossier.htm > >Daschle Denounces Bush Remarks on Iraq as Partisan >http://www.arras.net/daschle_denounces_bush.htm > >Clinton Says He Backs Tough U.N. Resolution on Iraq Inspections >http://www.arras.net/clinton_backs_resolution.html > >Get your kicks quick! > >cheers >Brian > >PS I wrote these lovely words to a friend this afternoon about the pages -- >obviously I was on my soap box: > >The point, as I see it, was to turn the mundane materials of the New York >Times into poetry by juxtaposing the page -- ads, logos, links, etc. -- with >revolutionary rantings by a type of person we probably won't see for some >time, i.e. Vaneigem. > >If Vaneigem's writings are able to make this transformation -- a Catholic >sensibility like his might even suggest something like transubstantiation, >which of course doesn't sound so radical when it's digital materials we are >talking about -- then it opens up a window of possiblity for >social/aesthetic activity. > >The logical next step would be to take a city, fill it with Situationist >graffiti, etc. etc. or with young Situationist recruits acting on Vaneigem's >precepts -- not likely. > >The target was not the New York Times -- it's easy enough to make fun of a >newspaper -- but to take the reality of the Times, all of its mundane >details, and somehow suggest that this reality is a form of social control >that can be evaded by simple but artful acts of detournement, tiny gestures >that don't even rely on wit, puns, knowledge etc., but are simple collages >that punch holes in the spectacle. > >But added to that, throw a critique back at Vaneigem suggesting that >revolutionary rhetoric is always outpaced by the course of events, >especially when the course is determined by spineless world leaders with >their fingers on the red buttons. > >____ > >A R R A S: new media poetry and poetics >http://www.arras.net > >Hinka cumfae cashore canfeh, Ahl hityi oar hied 'caw taughtie! > >"Do you think just because I come from Carronshore I cannot fight? I shall >hit you over the head with a cold potatoe." -- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 03:02:42 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: virus warning MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Taylor. Just joking Don. But ...a virus is a virus is a virus as they say. Richard. PS I was suspicioned you were not a real person. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Summerhayes" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 5:18 PM Subject: Re: virus warning > Tyler? Taylor? Just make me read another of your messages. > > "richard.tylr" wrote: > > > Then who is this Summer Hayes character: if we get the bastard how do we > > despatch him? Auto da fe? Send him to make coverstaion at the Reublican > > Club? (equiv. I presume to the National Party Club of NZ) Force him to read > > Wilbur Smith and nothing else for the next millenium? Make him into a > > compuer infested with ofware viruses that continouusly disintegrate and then > > refporm and cause eternal repaetiing system crashes? Force him to memorise > > the entire oeuvre of Alan Sondheim? (ery word number, technical and > > philosophic term, every anguished digit...?) Richard. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Catherine Daly" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 9:43 AM > > Subject: Re: virus warning > > > > > do check symantek re: these virus hoaxes -- > > > > > > This is a hoax that, like the SULFNBK.EXE Warning hoax, tries to > > > persuade you to delete a legitimate Windows file from your computer. The > > > file that the hoax refers to, Jdbgmgr.exe, is a Java Debugger Manager. > > > It is a Microsoft file that is installed when you install Windows. > > > > > > NOTE: Recent version of this hoax take advantage of the recent outbreak > > > of the W32.bugbear@mm worm, and the fact that the Jdbgmgr.exe file that > > > is mentioned in the hoax has a bear icon. The actual W32.bugbear@mm worm > > > file is an .exe file and does not have a bear icon. > > > > > > The Windows Jdbgmgr.exe file has a teddy bear icon as described in the > > > hoax: > > > > > > > > > > > > CAUTION: Jdbgmgr.exe, like any file, can become infected by a virus. One > > > virus in particular, W32.Efortune.31384@mm, targets this file. Norton > > > AntiVirus has provided protection against W32.Efortune.31384@mm since > > > May 11, 2001. > > > > > > NOTE: If you have already deleted the Jdbgmgr.exe file, some Java > > > applets may not run correctly. This is not a critical system file. The > > > file version may vary with your operating system and version of Internet > > > Explorer. If you want to restore the file, read the instructions in the > > > How to restore the Jdbgmgr.exefile section at the end of this document. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 06:04:32 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: Re: Raoul Unplugged MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii http://www.playdamage.org/getty/15.html curt cloninger had similar problems w/ the getty... Anningan (in progress) http://www.lewislacook.com/Anningan/AnningansDoor.html http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html meditation, net art, poeisis: blog http://lewislacook.blogspot.com/ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 09:06:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: hsn Subject: Re: poetry on the radio?? In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT hi noah there's a show on u penn's wxpn - "live at the writers house," which tom devaney coordinates. unsure if it's webcast. i imagine so since wxpn.com has live feed. & altho not radio, kelly writers house often webcasts (& archives) readings & such. h On 10/29/02 12:57 PM, "noah eli gordon" wrote: > Hello all, > > I'm in the process of beginning to go through a dj training program at a > local college station, hoping to start a poetry program: readings, author > interviews, discussions etc. The station broadcasts via the web and I'm > wondering if anyone knows of other programs like this? does any one do a > show focused on poetry??? web cast??? any info will help... > > thanks, > noah > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Broadband? Dial-up? Get reliable MSN Internet Access. > http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 06:33:59 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Drunken Boat Subject: Re: poetry on the radio?? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Noah - I'm slated to be on a Poetry show on Wesleyan radio in a couple of weeks. It's run by a mathematics grad student with an abiding interest in poetics and I'm sure he'd be happy to divulge the pleasures and perils of his enterprise. His name is Hendree, email address: brintonh@hotmail.com Best, Ravi --- noah eli gordon wrote: > Hello all, > > I'm in the process of beginning to go through a dj > training program at a > local college station, hoping to start a poetry > program: readings, author > interviews, discussions etc. The station broadcasts > via the web and I'm > wondering if anyone knows of other programs like > this? does any one do a > show focused on poetry??? web cast??? any info will > help... > > thanks, > noah > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Broadband? Dial-up? Get reliable MSN Internet > Access. > http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 12:02:31 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Raoul Unplugged MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT addendum preface: Sunday's NYTimes had a review of an artist who does "word art" - if you billed what you did as "art", Brian would it be 'fair use' for the Times to review it? Stephen, i've already asked Brian for permission to post his email as written to my 'invstigative work" http://www.metaphormetonym.com/invest.htm as documentaion of something that is gone from the internet. if he agrees Icould add your post or a reference to a print or zeroxed version which would initiate an infinite chain of evidence to absence? tom bell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen Vincent" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 8:13 PM Subject: Re: Raoul Unplugged > It's interesting (perhaps)to think that Brian S has created a critically > elusive art work. Which is to say, anyone wanting to fully re-present and > write about any of these documents will need to get permission and releases > from the New York Times. I assume Brian is quoting Raoul under some free- > wheeling concept of "fair use", in which part of the assumption is that > Raoul would naturally be complicit with Brian's invigoration of de-turning > this country's "paper of record" and would not also ask Brian to "cease & > desist." > I suspect one way to get around the Times' "cease & desist" order will be > for someone else to lift Brian's work (a little more "fair use") and > represent it under the auspices of a fresh web identity. Thereby forcing the > "poor" lawyers at the NY Times to subject the new "owner" to a fresh "cease > and desist" order. And this process of "the escaping art work" could go on > for a long line of the Times' lawyers dimes and dollars while, nevertheless, > keeping the original work alive, as well as giving the opportunity for the > birth and progression of more NY Times "detournements" - albeit with a > loosely collaborating series of new authors . The life of the original work > & concept would then begin to resemble the Disney cartoon animal in the > chase scene - not Mickey, but some acrobatic Disney creature(who? this goes > back to the progressive Disney 30's)- who eludes capture through magnificent > smarts and skills, no matter the persistence of the Corporate avenger. > Needless to say, for those among us who are law obeying critics, it will > still be impossible to re-present the work in a traditional context sans > permissions and proper lawyerly genuflections. An art work without a > legitimate critical history - what a concept! > > "'Cease & Desist.' Come on George W., cooperate!" > > Stephen Vincent > > > > > on 10/29/02 4:23 PM, Brian Stefans [arras.net] at bstefans@EARTHLINK.NET > wrote: > > > I've been given a cease and desist from the New York Times regarding the use > > of their images and homepage design and the use of their advertiser's images > > in my Raoul Vaneigem Meets the Talking Spiderheads from Mars series. > > > > I knew this would happen eventually, and don't see any real need to argue > > with them as I didn't intend these detournements to be anything more than > > graffiti on a wall, subject to the elements. I'm taking them down in 5 > > days -- they requested they come down in 10 days, but I'm being a nice guy. > > > > However, I'd like to give folks the chance to download the page for their > > own private viewing (not to be put on their website). Your very own piece > > of illegal net art! (No one will ever know you have it, shhh.) > > > > The cease and desist letter states: "Most significantly, you have > > substantially changed the lead article to include long and rambling made-up > > quotes from British Prime Mininster Tony Blair regarding the need to act > > against Iraq, under the byline of Raoul Vaneigem." > > > > Of course, I didn't actually write any of the text that appears in these > > pieces. Anything that was not part of the original NY Times article was > > taken from the writings of Raoul Vaneigem, the French Situationist -- > > considered a great prose stylist -- either from The Revolution of Everyday > > Life or from Contributions to The Revolutionary Struggle, Intended To Be > > Discussed, Corrected, And Principally, Put Into Practice Without Delay. > > Both of these texts can be found at www.nothingness.org. > > > > Here are the links to the three pages: > > > > Blair Presents Dossier on Iraq's Biological Weapons > > http://www.arras.net/blair_presents_dossier.htm > > > > Daschle Denounces Bush Remarks on Iraq as Partisan > > http://www.arras.net/daschle_denounces_bush.htm > > > > Clinton Says He Backs Tough U.N. Resolution on Iraq Inspections > > http://www.arras.net/clinton_backs_resolution.html > > > > Get your kicks quick! > > > > cheers > > Brian > > > > PS I wrote these lovely words to a friend this afternoon about the pages -- > > obviously I was on my soap box: > > > > The point, as I see it, was to turn the mundane materials of the New York > > Times into poetry by juxtaposing the page -- ads, logos, links, etc. -- with > > revolutionary rantings by a type of person we probably won't see for some > > time, i.e. Vaneigem. > > > > If Vaneigem's writings are able to make this transformation -- a Catholic > > sensibility like his might even suggest something like transubstantiation, > > which of course doesn't sound so radical when it's digital materials we are > > talking about -- then it opens up a window of possiblity for > > social/aesthetic activity. > > > > The logical next step would be to take a city, fill it with Situationist > > graffiti, etc. etc. or with young Situationist recruits acting on Vaneigem's > > precepts -- not likely. > > > > The target was not the New York Times -- it's easy enough to make fun of a > > newspaper -- but to take the reality of the Times, all of its mundane > > details, and somehow suggest that this reality is a form of social control > > that can be evaded by simple but artful acts of detournement, tiny gestures > > that don't even rely on wit, puns, knowledge etc., but are simple collages > > that punch holes in the spectacle. > > > > But added to that, throw a critique back at Vaneigem suggesting that > > revolutionary rhetoric is always outpaced by the course of events, > > especially when the course is determined by spineless world leaders with > > their fingers on the red buttons. > > > > ____ > > > > A R R A S: new media poetry and poetics > > http://www.arras.net > > > > Hinka cumfae cashore canfeh, Ahl hityi oar hied 'caw taughtie! > > > > "Do you think just because I come from Carronshore I cannot fight? I shall > > hit you over the head with a cold potatoe." > > > > on 10/29/02 4:23 PM, Brian Stefans [arras.net] at bstefans@EARTHLINK.NET > wrote: > > > I've been given a cease and desist from the New York Times regarding the use > > of their images and homepage design and the use of their advertiser's images > > in my Raoul Vaneigem Meets the Talking Spiderheads from Mars series. > > > > I knew this would happen eventually, and don't see any real need to argue > > with them as I didn't intend these detournements to be anything more than > > graffiti on a wall, subject to the elements. I'm taking them down in 5 > > days -- they requested they come down in 10 days, but I'm being a nice guy. > > > > However, I'd like to give folks the chance to download the page for their > > own private viewing (not to be put on their website). Your very own piece > > of illegal net art! (No one will ever know you have it, shhh.) > > > > The cease and desist letter states: "Most significantly, you have > > substantially changed the lead article to include long and rambling made-up > > quotes from British Prime Mininster Tony Blair regarding the need to act > > against Iraq, under the byline of Raoul Vaneigem." > > > > Of course, I didn't actually write any of the text that appears in these > > pieces. Anything that was not part of the original NY Times article was > > taken from the writings of Raoul Vaneigem, the French Situationist -- > > considered a great prose stylist -- either from The Revolution of Everyday > > Life or from Contributions to The Revolutionary Struggle, Intended To Be > > Discussed, Corrected, And Principally, Put Into Practice Without Delay. > > Both of these texts can be found at www.nothingness.org. > > > > Here are the links to the three pages: > > > > Blair Presents Dossier on Iraq's Biological Weapons > > http://www.arras.net/blair_presents_dossier.htm > > > > Daschle Denounces Bush Remarks on Iraq as Partisan > > http://www.arras.net/daschle_denounces_bush.htm > > > > Clinton Says He Backs Tough U.N. Resolution on Iraq Inspections > > http://www.arras.net/clinton_backs_resolution.html > > > > Get your kicks quick! > > > > cheers > > Brian > > > > PS I wrote these lovely words to a friend this afternoon about the pages -- > > obviously I was on my soap box: > > > > The point, as I see it, was to turn the mundane materials of the New York > > Times into poetry by juxtaposing the page -- ads, logos, links, etc. -- with > > revolutionary rantings by a type of person we probably won't see for some > > time, i.e. Vaneigem. > > > > If Vaneigem's writings are able to make this transformation -- a Catholic > > sensibility like his might even suggest something like transubstantiation, > > which of course doesn't sound so radical when it's digital materials we are > > talking about -- then it opens up a window of possiblity for > > social/aesthetic activity. > > > > The logical next step would be to take a city, fill it with Situationist > > graffiti, etc. etc. or with young Situationist recruits acting on Vaneigem's > > precepts -- not likely. > > > > The target was not the New York Times -- it's easy enough to make fun of a > > newspaper -- but to take the reality of the Times, all of its mundane > > details, and somehow suggest that this reality is a form of social control > > that can be evaded by simple but artful acts of detournement, tiny gestures > > that don't even rely on wit, puns, knowledge etc., but are simple collages > > that punch holes in the spectacle. > > > > But added to that, throw a critique back at Vaneigem suggesting that > > revolutionary rhetoric is always outpaced by the course of events, > > especially when the course is determined by spineless world leaders with > > their fingers on the red buttons. > > > > ____ > > > > A R R A S: new media poetry and poetics > > http://www.arras.net > > > > Hinka cumfae cashore canfeh, Ahl hityi oar hied 'caw taughtie! > > > > "Do you think just because I come from Carronshore I cannot fight? I shall > > hit you over the head with a cold potatoe." &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&cetera: Poetry at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/publicat.html Gallery - Metaphor/Metonym for Health at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/metaphor/metapho.htm Health articles at http://psychology.healingwell.com/ Reviews at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/reviews.htm ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 10:50:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Stefans, Brian" Subject: Re: Raoul Unplugged MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi Lewis, Stephen, Tom, etc. -- thanks for the comments. Re: collage, I'm not familiar with the laws of collage, but it seems to me what I did with the Times is very different from collage. It's more like impersonating an officer -- I lifted the entire "uniform" if you will, the recognizable skin of authority, and kind of paraded around in it without really explaining to anyone what I was doing. Collage as we know it is pretty obviously collage -- there is glue involved, some sort of frame, a little tearing, etc. But my page, outside of the URL, was pretty much the entire Times page with the alteration of the quotes. This also leaves me open to slander -- or something like that -- since it's been generally perceived that I "made up" quotes for Tony Blair, etc., even though I didn't "write" a single word of the article. Tom Daschle, for instance, even though I think his words are quite amazing in my version of the story, would probably not be too happy with them, even though they would make him the Jim Morrison of South Dakota -- and from there, the presidency! I'd be suprised to discover that the mere act of collage puts something in the public domain -- does that mean that were I to add "found" pictures, or add sentences from Moby Dick, to a new Stephen King novel, then the King novel becomes part of the public domain? That would be remarkable and of course I'd prefer it that way, but I don't think the argument holds water. The URL that Lewis forwarded re: the Getty argument is very interesting, but as you can see, unless one is going to devote a portion of one's life to building a case against a large corporation, what you get is a lot of e-mails flying back and forth, though I haven't yet heard again from the Times -- I'm not even sure this person exists (it could just be Jeffrey Jullich). I have found other cease and desist letters by Nancy Richman online, though. Here's Lewis's link again: http://www.playdamage.org/getty/15.html Re: Raoul being complicit with my actions -- if any of you out there know Raoul Vaneigem's email address, please pass it on! I like Stephen's musings re: the cartoon animal in the chase scene, and proliferating detournements -- it's funny that you read the theory of detournement coming back in everyone from Hakim Bey and the Critical Arts Ensemble (you can find out about them at the Autonomedia website), but it's not been picked up all that much by web artists, and certainly not by poets. Here's the letter, by the way. I've deleted the phone number because I don't want anyone playing games here! I am counsel to The New York Times Company, the owner of The New York Times on the Web at http://www.nytimes.com. It has come to our attention that you have posted an altered version of the home page of the September 24, 2002 edition of nytimes.com at http://www/arras.net/blair_present-dossier.htm. While the page reproduces the nytimes.com template, including the day's advertisements, it replaces selected bylines and other features with content you have supplied. Most significantly, you have substantially changed the lead article to include long and rambling made-up quotes from British Prime Mininster Tony Blair regarding the need to act against Iraq, under the byline of Raoul Vaneigem. The editors at the Times appreciate a good parody and would not take action against it. However, the subject matter of this particular page appears to be more serious in nature. Therefore, even though we are sure that your intent was non-malicious, we must inform you that your use of the Times's name, logos and home page design and layout constitutes trademark and copyright infringement. While we respect your efforts to make a statement, we must ask that you do so in a manner that does not violate our proprietary rights, or the rights of our advertisers. Please remove the page from public display and confirm to us in writing within the next ten days that you will not use our home page in the future in this same way. If you would like to discuss this matter, please give me a call at 212- xxx xxxx. Thank you for your cooperation. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 07:52:55 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Larsen Subject: hi Elizabeth In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm going to be out of town for the SPT auction and can't make any of the readings before then --is there some way I can hand off to you my contribution to the auction? I could meet you anywhere in Berkeley. thanks, whenever's fine LRSN ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 11:21:59 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Craig Allen Conrad Subject: Ronald Palmer & CAConrad BROOKLYN READING MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit SUNDAY NOVEMBER 10 2 p.m. Ronald Palmer CAConrad Soft Skull Shortwave Bookstore http://softskull.com 71 Bond Street, at State Brooklyn NY 11217 F/G train to Bergen Street 718-643-1599 map & other info: http://www.softskull.com/cgi-bin/SoftCart.100.exe/shortwave/index.html?L+scsto re+hbdm5090+1035861823 ************* 3 poems by Ronald Palmer Teaser # 1: Ver: Bal Bel: Lig: Ere: Nce Some lives begin as a race to the most prestigious kindergarten. Sensationalogics! I found it disturbing and therefore erotic. Hystericalogics. Occasionalogics. *** Teaser #2: Verb Confusion: (No Suggestions) When the penitentiary is appealing: I've got your stitches. (Growling like a tiger in rain). I follow him on the snow path from the parking lot to the edge of the trees. Scoring the penis as prize. It is after midnight under the moon. We are surrounded by trees and patches of snow. *** Teaser #3: The Logic of Thunder O mother of pause: I am filling with thunder. Bring with you only your mild smack of thunder and a cataract of rain. Everything's Crane. (Para mi: si como no: mas tro: nada!) Thunder became feminized by his own obedient dedication to perky pectorals: shaving: oiling: powdering: strutting his nipples down Commercial Street like a lady cat: lady cat: lady cat. ************* 3 poems by CAConrad Brought tape recording of ocean tide to Atlantic City. Laid on beach, tape recorder at right ear, ocean at left. Eyes closed, I was between oceans, crash over here, crash over there. A brain takes the world at its word when spoken in water. Twice the tides matched, twice they entered me...together...synchro... "How A Plunge Went Thru Me" is the title of this at the end. **** FAST FOOD EPIPHANY my American Beef Consumption Average met me at midnight eating burgers in an empty parking lot Heifer Spirits mooing in the back seat I drive to McDonald's do the Living Spirit Dance around the deep fat fryer around the spatula prostrate before the grill I chant apology invoke the spirit COME! someone calls the police I dance again someone screams the Great Spirit Bull leaping over registers charging tables with his horns the Spirit Horse gallops from the freezer (see who else we've eaten) I ride the stallion thru the parking lot my Great White Bellies crush Lakota toddlers I drive thru a store front years of constipation mess the silk of mannequins fresh steaming excrement a Sacred Cow porridge I cake myself and howl ancestors steering me whirl me down the boulevard sides of beef circle overhead quivering into rigor mortis the Spirit Herd moos in harmony follows me back to pastures the lot of us dissolve into the spinning top of Saturn **** SEVERED LEG PIROUETTE "vacant land" means no people "nothing but a few prairie dogs" means no people "we swerved, hit a cat, but no one was hurt" means no people ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 14:09:20 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: Raoul Unplugged MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT mind-goggling permutations here when you consider it. - I think it's related to Clemente's spam/anti-spam work. - a former unnamed list member has built a whole industry for himself out of attack and fakery. - the issues of 'framing' and 'labeling' do seem to have endless permutations. - at what point does a celeb (use Elvis here in the post but fill in your own blanks in your mind) slip over the line into self-parody if such a chimera is a possibility? or consider when collage becomes Collage or wordart? - probably when it's sold for big bucks in NY? -on the other hand, as the NYTimes letter to points out, sometimes this stuff does have serious consequences. or does really matter, like in Clemente's work and the potential for a collage of viral terrorist spams sends shivvers through my gut. perhaps laughter and poetry can matter? tom bell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stefans, Brian" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 9:50 AM Subject: Re: Raoul Unplugged > Hi Lewis, Stephen, Tom, etc. -- thanks for the comments. > > Re: collage, I'm not familiar with the laws of collage, but it seems to me > what I did with the Times is very different from collage. It's more like > impersonating an officer -- I lifted the entire "uniform" if you will, the > recognizable skin of authority, and kind of paraded around in it without > really explaining to anyone what I was doing. Collage as we know it is > pretty obviously collage -- there is glue involved, some sort of frame, a > little tearing, etc. But my page, outside of the URL, was pretty much the > entire Times page with the alteration of the quotes. > > This also leaves me open to slander -- or something like that -- since it's > been generally perceived that I "made up" quotes for Tony Blair, etc., even > though I didn't "write" a single word of the article. Tom Daschle, for > instance, even though I think his words are quite amazing in my version of > the story, would probably not be too happy with them, even though they would > make him the Jim Morrison of South Dakota -- and from there, the presidency! > > I'd be suprised to discover that the mere act of collage puts something in > the public domain -- does that mean that were I to add "found" pictures, or > add sentences from Moby Dick, to a new Stephen King novel, then the King > novel becomes part of the public domain? That would be remarkable and of > course I'd prefer it that way, but I don't think the argument holds water. > > The URL that Lewis forwarded re: the Getty argument is very interesting, but > as you can see, unless one is going to devote a portion of one's life to > building a case against a large corporation, what you get is a lot of > e-mails flying back and forth, though I haven't yet heard again from the > Times -- I'm not even sure this person exists (it could just be Jeffrey > Jullich). I have found other cease and desist letters by Nancy Richman > online, though. > > Here's Lewis's link again: http://www.playdamage.org/getty/15.html > Re: Raoul being complicit with my actions -- if any of you out there know > Raoul Vaneigem's email address, please pass it on! I like Stephen's musings > re: the cartoon animal in the chase scene, and proliferating detournements > -- it's funny that you read the theory of detournement coming back in > everyone from Hakim Bey and the Critical Arts Ensemble (you can find out > about them at the Autonomedia website), but it's not been picked up all that > much by web artists, and certainly not by poets. > > Here's the letter, by the way. I've deleted the phone number because I > don't want anyone playing games here! > > I am counsel to The New York Times Company, the owner of The New York Times > on the Web at http://www.nytimes.com. > > It has come to our attention that you have posted an altered version of the > home page of the September 24, 2002 edition of nytimes.com at > http://www/arras.net/blair_present-dossier.htm. While the page reproduces > the nytimes.com template, including the day's advertisements, it replaces > selected bylines and other features with content you have supplied. Most > significantly, you have substantially changed the lead article to include > long and rambling made-up quotes from British Prime Mininster Tony Blair > regarding the need to act against Iraq, under the byline of Raoul Vaneigem. > > The editors at the Times appreciate a good parody and would not take action > against it. However, the subject matter of this particular page appears to > be more serious in nature. Therefore, even though we are sure that your > intent was non-malicious, we must inform you that your use of the Times's > name, logos and home page design and layout constitutes trademark and > copyright infringement. > > While we respect your efforts to make a statement, we must ask that you do > so in a manner that does not violate our proprietary rights, or the rights > of our advertisers. Please remove the page from public display and confirm > to us in writing within the next ten days that you will not use our home > page in the future in this same way. If you would like to discuss this > matter, please give me a call at 212- xxx xxxx. Thank you for your > cooperation. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 12:01:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Shoemaker Subject: Susan Thackrey In-Reply-To: <000a01c27f80$f3788ae0$f650fea9@LakeyTeasdale> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Can anyone provide me with contact info? Thanks, Steve ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 10:20:48 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: Raoul Unplugged Comments: To: Thomas Bell In-Reply-To: <016601c2803e$8541b9c0$30343544@rthfrd01.tn.comcast.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Tom: I like your Metaphor etc. investigative site - a least the very interesting piece on Argentina - and will look at more later. As to putting my "unplugged" response into the context of the site, just lift and use. I assume lawyers will not be emailing me to desist from my theoretical meandering. Underneath all of this I think there remain proprietary issues - in that, ironically, as we have seen too often, the momentary poetic or artistic gesture anarchistally presented - and often to great delight - becomes a corporate counter-gesture (i.e. a much more permanent appropriation) in which the original gesture/concept is simulated. The unwanted ads, for example, that pop up on the monitor over the 'real' content (as we try to read within what we thought was the sanctified space/part of the web page), may be also be interpreted as corporate "deturnings." In other words, word and visual gestures that momentarily liberate public space come back as corporate logos/brands simulating art. Counter-reaping what is sewn. So sometimes it's much stronger position to create one's own "original and protected work," as well as to respect that of others. Though obviously that act makes it a much longer haul to crack the public surface. The experienced frustration compelling alternate routes. I suspect we will live with both options for a long time. Stephen Vincent on 10/30/02 10:02 AM, Thomas Bell at trbell@COMCAST.NET wrote: > addendum preface: Sunday's NYTimes had a review of an artist who does "word > art" - if you billed what you did as "art", Brian would it be 'fair use' > for the Times to review it? > > Stephen, > i've already asked Brian for permission to post his email as written to > my 'invstigative work" http://www.metaphormetonym.com/invest.htm as > documentaion of something that is gone from the internet. if he agrees > Icould add your post or a reference to a print or zeroxed version which > would initiate an infinite chain of evidence to absence? > > tom bell > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Stephen Vincent" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 8:13 PM > Subject: Re: Raoul Unplugged > > >> It's interesting (perhaps)to think that Brian S has created a critically >> elusive art work. Which is to say, anyone wanting to fully re-present and >> write about any of these documents will need to get permission and > releases >> from the New York Times. I assume Brian is quoting Raoul under some free- >> wheeling concept of "fair use", in which part of the assumption is that >> Raoul would naturally be complicit with Brian's invigoration of de-turning >> this country's "paper of record" and would not also ask Brian to "cease & >> desist." >> I suspect one way to get around the Times' "cease & desist" order will be >> for someone else to lift Brian's work (a little more "fair use") and >> represent it under the auspices of a fresh web identity. Thereby forcing > the >> "poor" lawyers at the NY Times to subject the new "owner" to a fresh > "cease >> and desist" order. And this process of "the escaping art work" could go on >> for a long line of the Times' lawyers dimes and dollars while, > nevertheless, >> keeping the original work alive, as well as giving the opportunity for the >> birth and progression of more NY Times "detournements" - albeit with a >> loosely collaborating series of new authors . The life of the original > work >> & concept would then begin to resemble the Disney cartoon animal in the >> chase scene - not Mickey, but some acrobatic Disney creature(who? this > goes >> back to the progressive Disney 30's)- who eludes capture through > magnificent >> smarts and skills, no matter the persistence of the Corporate avenger. >> Needless to say, for those among us who are law obeying critics, it will >> still be impossible to re-present the work in a traditional context sans >> permissions and proper lawyerly genuflections. An art work without a >> legitimate critical history - what a concept! >> >> "'Cease & Desist.' Come on George W., cooperate!" >> >> Stephen Vincent >> >> >> >> >> on 10/29/02 4:23 PM, Brian Stefans [arras.net] at bstefans@EARTHLINK.NET >> wrote: >> >>> I've been given a cease and desist from the New York Times regarding the > use >>> of their images and homepage design and the use of their advertiser's > images >>> in my Raoul Vaneigem Meets the Talking Spiderheads from Mars series. >>> >>> I knew this would happen eventually, and don't see any real need to > argue >>> with them as I didn't intend these detournements to be anything more > than >>> graffiti on a wall, subject to the elements. I'm taking them down in 5 >>> days -- they requested they come down in 10 days, but I'm being a nice > guy. >>> >>> However, I'd like to give folks the chance to download the page for > their >>> own private viewing (not to be put on their website). Your very own > piece >>> of illegal net art! (No one will ever know you have it, shhh.) >>> >>> The cease and desist letter states: "Most significantly, you have >>> substantially changed the lead article to include long and rambling > made-up >>> quotes from British Prime Mininster Tony Blair regarding the need to act >>> against Iraq, under the byline of Raoul Vaneigem." >>> >>> Of course, I didn't actually write any of the text that appears in these >>> pieces. Anything that was not part of the original NY Times article was >>> taken from the writings of Raoul Vaneigem, the French Situationist -- >>> considered a great prose stylist -- either from The Revolution of > Everyday >>> Life or from Contributions to The Revolutionary Struggle, Intended To Be >>> Discussed, Corrected, And Principally, Put Into Practice Without Delay. >>> Both of these texts can be found at www.nothingness.org. >>> >>> Here are the links to the three pages: >>> >>> Blair Presents Dossier on Iraq's Biological Weapons >>> http://www.arras.net/blair_presents_dossier.htm >>> >>> Daschle Denounces Bush Remarks on Iraq as Partisan >>> http://www.arras.net/daschle_denounces_bush.htm >>> >>> Clinton Says He Backs Tough U.N. Resolution on Iraq Inspections >>> http://www.arras.net/clinton_backs_resolution.html >>> >>> Get your kicks quick! >>> >>> cheers >>> Brian >>> >>> PS I wrote these lovely words to a friend this afternoon about the > pages -- >>> obviously I was on my soap box: >>> >>> The point, as I see it, was to turn the mundane materials of the New > York >>> Times into poetry by juxtaposing the page -- ads, logos, links, etc. -- > with >>> revolutionary rantings by a type of person we probably won't see for > some >>> time, i.e. Vaneigem. >>> >>> If Vaneigem's writings are able to make this transformation -- a > Catholic >>> sensibility like his might even suggest something like > transubstantiation, >>> which of course doesn't sound so radical when it's digital materials we > are >>> talking about -- then it opens up a window of possiblity for >>> social/aesthetic activity. >>> >>> The logical next step would be to take a city, fill it with Situationist >>> graffiti, etc. etc. or with young Situationist recruits acting on > Vaneigem's >>> precepts -- not likely. >>> >>> The target was not the New York Times -- it's easy enough to make fun of > a >>> newspaper -- but to take the reality of the Times, all of its mundane >>> details, and somehow suggest that this reality is a form of social > control >>> that can be evaded by simple but artful acts of detournement, tiny > gestures >>> that don't even rely on wit, puns, knowledge etc., but are simple > collages >>> that punch holes in the spectacle. >>> >>> But added to that, throw a critique back at Vaneigem suggesting that >>> revolutionary rhetoric is always outpaced by the course of events, >>> especially when the course is determined by spineless world leaders with >>> their fingers on the red buttons. >>> >>> ____ >>> >>> A R R A S: new media poetry and poetics >>> http://www.arras.net >>> >>> Hinka cumfae cashore canfeh, Ahl hityi oar hied 'caw taughtie! >>> >>> "Do you think just because I come from Carronshore I cannot fight? I > shall >>> hit you over the head with a cold potatoe." >> >> >> >> on 10/29/02 4:23 PM, Brian Stefans [arras.net] at bstefans@EARTHLINK.NET >> wrote: >> >>> I've been given a cease and desist from the New York Times regarding the > use >>> of their images and homepage design and the use of their advertiser's > images >>> in my Raoul Vaneigem Meets the Talking Spiderheads from Mars series. >>> >>> I knew this would happen eventually, and don't see any real need to > argue >>> with them as I didn't intend these detournements to be anything more > than >>> graffiti on a wall, subject to the elements. I'm taking them down in 5 >>> days -- they requested they come down in 10 days, but I'm being a nice > guy. >>> >>> However, I'd like to give folks the chance to download the page for > their >>> own private viewing (not to be put on their website). Your very own > piece >>> of illegal net art! (No one will ever know you have it, shhh.) >>> >>> The cease and desist letter states: "Most significantly, you have >>> substantially changed the lead article to include long and rambling > made-up >>> quotes from British Prime Mininster Tony Blair regarding the need to act >>> against Iraq, under the byline of Raoul Vaneigem." >>> >>> Of course, I didn't actually write any of the text that appears in these >>> pieces. Anything that was not part of the original NY Times article was >>> taken from the writings of Raoul Vaneigem, the French Situationist -- >>> considered a great prose stylist -- either from The Revolution of > Everyday >>> Life or from Contributions to The Revolutionary Struggle, Intended To Be >>> Discussed, Corrected, And Principally, Put Into Practice Without Delay. >>> Both of these texts can be found at www.nothingness.org. >>> >>> Here are the links to the three pages: >>> >>> Blair Presents Dossier on Iraq's Biological Weapons >>> http://www.arras.net/blair_presents_dossier.htm >>> >>> Daschle Denounces Bush Remarks on Iraq as Partisan >>> http://www.arras.net/daschle_denounces_bush.htm >>> >>> Clinton Says He Backs Tough U.N. Resolution on Iraq Inspections >>> http://www.arras.net/clinton_backs_resolution.html >>> >>> Get your kicks quick! >>> >>> cheers >>> Brian >>> >>> PS I wrote these lovely words to a friend this afternoon about the > pages -- >>> obviously I was on my soap box: >>> >>> The point, as I see it, was to turn the mundane materials of the New > York >>> Times into poetry by juxtaposing the page -- ads, logos, links, etc. -- > with >>> revolutionary rantings by a type of person we probably won't see for > some >>> time, i.e. Vaneigem. >>> >>> If Vaneigem's writings are able to make this transformation -- a > Catholic >>> sensibility like his might even suggest something like > transubstantiation, >>> which of course doesn't sound so radical when it's digital materials we > are >>> talking about -- then it opens up a window of possiblity for >>> social/aesthetic activity. >>> >>> The logical next step would be to take a city, fill it with Situationist >>> graffiti, etc. etc. or with young Situationist recruits acting on > Vaneigem's >>> precepts -- not likely. >>> >>> The target was not the New York Times -- it's easy enough to make fun of > a >>> newspaper -- but to take the reality of the Times, all of its mundane >>> details, and somehow suggest that this reality is a form of social > control >>> that can be evaded by simple but artful acts of detournement, tiny > gestures >>> that don't even rely on wit, puns, knowledge etc., but are simple > collages >>> that punch holes in the spectacle. >>> >>> But added to that, throw a critique back at Vaneigem suggesting that >>> revolutionary rhetoric is always outpaced by the course of events, >>> especially when the course is determined by spineless world leaders with >>> their fingers on the red buttons. >>> >>> ____ >>> >>> A R R A S: new media poetry and poetics >>> http://www.arras.net >>> >>> Hinka cumfae cashore canfeh, Ahl hityi oar hied 'caw taughtie! >>> >>> "Do you think just because I come from Carronshore I cannot fight? I > shall >>> hit you over the head with a cold potatoe." > > &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&cetera: > Poetry at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/publicat.html > Gallery - Metaphor/Metonym for Health at > http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/metaphor/metapho.htm > Health articles at http://psychology.healingwell.com/ > Reviews at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/reviews.htm ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 14:16:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Geoffrey Gatza Subject: Re: Raoul Unplugged MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian, Congrats on a job well done :-) I suggest you take your letter and frame it! This is, in my opinion, analogus to the obsenity trials of the last century(ies) for poets. I am so proud of you. Best, Geoffrey ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 08:29:44 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: Re: Raoul Unplugged In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Durn. I kinda liked old Raoul. Mostly on that first day, when it took a bit to figure out what was going on . . . for 20 seconds I thought George Bush was getting interesting . . . I guess that'll not be happening again. Snif. Snif-snif even, JG ------------------ I've been given a cease and desist from the New York Times regarding the use of their images and homepage design and the use of their advertiser's images in my Raoul Vaneigem Meets the Talking Spiderheads from Mars series. I knew this would happen eventually, and don't see any real need to argue with them as I didn't intend these detournements to be anything more than graffiti on a wall, subject to the elements. I'm taking them down in 5 days -- they requested they come down in 10 days, but I'm being a nice guy. However, I'd like to give folks the chance to download the page for their own private viewing (not to be put on their website). Your very own piece of illegal net art! (No one will ever know you have it, shhh.) The cease and desist letter states: "Most significantly, you have substantially changed the lead article to include long and rambling made-up quotes from British Prime Mininster Tony Blair regarding the need to act against Iraq, under the byline of Raoul Vaneigem." Of course, I didn't actually write any of the text that appears in these pieces. Anything that was not part of the original NY Times article was taken from the writings of Raoul Vaneigem, the French Situationist -- considered a great prose stylist -- either from The Revolution of Everyday Life or from Contributions to The Revolutionary Struggle, Intended To Be Discussed, Corrected, And Principally, Put Into Practice Without Delay. Both of these texts can be found at www.nothingness.org. Here are the links to the three pages: Blair Presents Dossier on Iraq's Biological Weapons http://www.arras.net/blair_presents_dossier.htm Daschle Denounces Bush Remarks on Iraq as Partisan http://www.arras.net/daschle_denounces_bush.htm Clinton Says He Backs Tough U.N. Resolution on Iraq Inspections http://www.arras.net/clinton_backs_resolution.html Get your kicks quick! cheers Brian PS I wrote these lovely words to a friend this afternoon about the pages -- obviously I was on my soap box: The point, as I see it, was to turn the mundane materials of the New York Times into poetry by juxtaposing the page -- ads, logos, links, etc. -- with revolutionary rantings by a type of person we probably won't see for some time, i.e. Vaneigem. If Vaneigem's writings are able to make this transformation -- a Catholic sensibility like his might even suggest something like transubstantiation, which of course doesn't sound so radical when it's digital materials we are talking about -- then it opens up a window of possiblity for social/aesthetic activity. The logical next step would be to take a city, fill it with Situationist graffiti, etc. etc. or with young Situationist recruits acting on Vaneigem's precepts -- not likely. The target was not the New York Times -- it's easy enough to make fun of a newspaper -- but to take the reality of the Times, all of its mundane details, and somehow suggest that this reality is a form of social control that can be evaded by simple but artful acts of detournement, tiny gestures that don't even rely on wit, puns, knowledge etc., but are simple collages that punch holes in the spectacle. But added to that, throw a critique back at Vaneigem suggesting that revolutionary rhetoric is always outpaced by the course of events, especially when the course is determined by spineless world leaders with their fingers on the red buttons. ____ A R R A S: new media poetry and poetics http://www.arras.net Hinka cumfae cashore canfeh, Ahl hityi oar hied 'caw taughtie! "Do you think just because I come from Carronshore I cannot fight? I shall hit you over the head with a cold potatoe." "Always in a foreign country, the poet uses poetry as interpreter." --Edmond Jabes ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 12:45:40 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Small Press Traffic Subject: SPT presents Cecilia Vicuna MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Small Press Traffic, the Poetry Center & CCAC present Tuesday, November 5, 2002 at 7:00 pm Cecilia Vicuña Chilean poet, artist and filmmaker Cecilia Vicuña is the author of fourteen poetry books, published in Europe, Latin America and the US. She has recently exhibited her work at the Palais des Beaux Arts in Belgium, at the Castello di Rivoli in Italy, and in the l997 Whitney Biennial. Her book Instan appeared from Berkeley?s Kelsey St. Press this year, and earlier titles include El Templo (translated by Rosa Alcalá, Situations, 2001) and QUIPOem/ The Precarious, The Art and Poetry of Cecilia Vicuña (edited by M. Catherine de Zegher, translated by Esther Allen, Wesleyan University Press, l997). Vicuña is currently coediting the anthology 500 Years of Latin American Poetry for Oxford University Press. Cosponsored with the Poetry Center & CCAC?s Department of Visual Criticism. THIS EVENT IS FREE. Unless otherwise noted, our events are presented in Timken Lecture Hall California College of Arts and Crafts 1111 Eighth Street, San Francisco (just off the intersection of 16th & Wisconsin) ---------------------------------------------------------- Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson, Executive Director Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center at CCAC 1111 - 8th Street San Francisco, California 94107 http://www.sptraffic.org 415-551-9278 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 12:57:46 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: minnesota In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >well the karma won't come back around in a straightforward way, but i >have more faith in it than in antagonistic Abombers at this point in >my life. love, md Boy, I hope there is karma. I wonder whether that is what widows in Iraq are saying. I mean we know that Iraq doesnt have atomic weapons. If they did, Bush and the Texans would not think of bombing it. -- George Bowering Open to suggestions. Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 16:13:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Libbie Rifkin Subject: Granary Books' Steve Clay Speaks at the Library of Congress Rare Book Forum MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Rare Book and Special Collections Division & The Pyramid Atlantic Center Announce A Library of Congress Rare Book Forum A Lecture by Steve Clay "The Poetry Project at St. Mark's Church-in-the-Bouwerie: Being an Account of the Poets, Poetry, Poetics, Publications, Readings and Recordings (emanating from a diverse array of characters on the Lower East Side of Manhattan, 1966-present)"=20 Thursday, November 14, 2002. 6:30 p.m Coolidge Auditorium,=20 Library of Congress Jefferson Building,=20 101 Independence Ave., S.E., Washington, DC 20540=20 The title of Clay's talk only hints at the rich, variegated topic Clay, an editor, publisher, and book artist, will be discussing. Since 1966 the Poetry Project has been the leading American venue for innovative poetry, a setting for and model of the germination of a new form of American poetry that takes its cues from writers associated with Black Mountain, the New York School, the San Francisco Renaissance, the Beats, and other experimental traditions that took root after World War II. Bringing together artists and poets, the Project has helped forge the template for the artist-run, artist-managed organizations. An exemplar for independent literary centers across the U.S., the Poetry Project has figured in the production of literary magazines and presses such as C, Angel Hair, Adventures in Poetry, Cuz, Milk, and Telephone, as well as serving as a gathering place for hundreds of performers, poets, writers, playwrights and visionaries. Creative spirits who performed, discoursed, taught, argued, protested and seduced audiences at the Project have included Allen Ginsberg, John Ashbery, Alice Notley, Adrienne Rich, Alice Walker, John Cage, Sam Shepard, Amiri Baraka, Lisa Jarnot, Terri McMillan, Jessica Hagedorn, Edwin Torres, Robert Creeley, Patti Smith, Dael Orlandersmith, Ted Berrigan, Yoko Ono, Eileen Myles, Ron Padgett, Juliana Spahr, Charles Bernstein, Sherman Alexie and Michael Ondaatje. In his talk, Clay will chart the history of this colorful and seminal organization. "I will seek to elaborate the role of community, of the poetry reading as live event, and the production of magazines and books [i.e. by hand at home with friends] as significant factors in the evolution of this particularly American poetics," Clay said. "Its reverberations and resonances are central for those at the forefront of innovative poetry today." Steve Clay is the editor and publisher of Granary Books. For nearly twenty years, Granary has brought together writers, artists, and bookmakers to explore the intersection of the verbal and the visual in the time-honored context of independent publishing. Granary's mission -- to theorize, produce, promote, and document new works that explore the interplay of word, image, and page - has earned it a reputation as one of today's unique and significant small publishers. Clay is a hands-on participant in this process. In 1998, he and Rodney Phillips curated and co-authored the catalog for the New York Public Library's widely acclaimed exhibition, "A Secret Location on the Lower East Side: Adventures in Writing 1960-1980." In 2000, Clay and Jerome Rothenberg co-edited the massive anthology, A Book of the Book: Some Works & Projections About the Book & Writing. The LC FORUM will begin promptly at 6:30 p.m. on November 14, 2002, in the Coolidge Auditorium, Ground Floor Jefferson Building of The Library of Congress, 101 Independence Ave., S.E. The event is free and open to the public, but we encourage those of you who expect to attend to contact the Rare Book and Special Collections Division to make a reservation: telephone (202) 707-2026; fax (202) 707-4142; or e-mail at cmos@loc.gov. Mark Dimunation Chief, Rare Book and Special Collections Division The Library of Congress 101 Independence Ave, S.E. Washington, D.C. 20540-4740 202-707-2025 phone 202-707-4142 fax mdim@loc.gov ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 17:09:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: after Kenji Satori MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII AM3R!KA @ & aft3r K3nj! $at0r! 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[t3ra cra$h 0utput::th3 d3$!r3 f!x3$ n3rv3 0m!tt3d >!t !n$!d3 $a1aryman$....th3 y3n_cr!m3 r3$p!rat!0n-byt3::d!ff3r3nt turn$ cru31 hydr0man!a $cann3d.... !n$ta11$ f3t!-arch!v3 $0u1/gram$ am rap3_g3n3 S0 >th3 batt13::th3 b!0captur3$ v!ru$ and f1!p b1u3 $0u1/gram$....g3n3 b100d rav3. $tat3 cadav3r$ 3j3ct B3!ng c0v3r3d c311$ b!0t3chn010gy captur3d r3$p!rat!0n-byt3/murd3r-pr0t0c01 j0!nt$.... j0!nt$....th3 V!013nc3-HDD b0y r0!d b1a$t f0rm--th3 c10n3d m!m!cry c10n3-d!v3$ 0n.... j0!nt$....am3r!kan :th3 !n$3rt$ c10n3-$k!n. d0wn10ad c00k$ !n0rgan!c $ub$tanc3 HYPE_v!01at!0n t3chn0hack3r$ n0t!f!3d [I turn m3chan!$m$ === ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 17:31:15 -0500 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: prime viii In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks be to Our Modernist God and His Crap Machine (Prime VIII, or What the Prime Number Said, or How Our Dead Modernist God Speaks To Us Through Bitwise Operations Piled Like Crap, Like Infinitesimal Confusions and Exponential Contusions) "Gee" is the way we nuke one another, with a yuck and a brogue. He solves chess with bop and thaws a Baal or two. Is ore oil? Had not we more toil when an ovoid ark piloted by a hex jaw gadded some cod? O you old &$#$, age on. Aerie dew widens the backs of eels. Fey chi for sale: nab yours. Bow, it is us; we are thugs, fully. Sol: war egg fled via dada walking aids. Wade through the blue chi when arched on a bed. A tilt of the end when the fey chi is sold out. Do ideate your wick and cuss at our errs. I so I. So I. So I. I so I. So I. So I. Colt goes, "oh Exalt a curb, thou seaware fan. Go, eclair, chat shalom with me." Him: let go the fear with a tic, be the Nether Am. Do jet, aged peon. Rest up, enjoy your creaky dew. Sew stout limbs in the bed. O cosmism, ay meatloaf: yours is a lei made of mint built to paddle. Waken our nerves with a sad seal. Gas embroil our awe with ire. A few esters ago I latched a foot on an ashen ewe. The azoic I, bemused the shad with Avian egg glued to a rib. Web woos yahoos; daft lei of the doltish rib to win. Eat joints to quash gaits. Trade fibs ad to a sly yank. Futile self, O, howl on THC and ban the awakened idea. Gnat expends a yogi here, the plebe esparto, with urn mud. Then eons pass. Rife with endnotes, he traveled as if eyes were a fad. Ale and smoke with an icy gene jug and a nodal ape earlobe is how my stiffening sly abs sass eels. With bonneted howitzers. The spry renal rag rises, and then eats the dry zany I. The onyx felt like fake abuse, like a sexy uttering. Bo. Rat. Tit. Zoo. Less. Aft. Barn. Rend. Saw. O Laurite titan; hoe my keyboard. However, after having eaten atman, I must shed my Organ. I tell the old elk to fan awe with a rat tibia. So yawp, dam tree, jib alternatingly in the wind. Thou art the greatest barbaric soap chef. Dye us black, the vast pod crew, and sink us. Ten-Lima-One, Roger Lodger. Amen. Patrick Herron patrick@proximate.org !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !Getting Close Is What! ! We're All About(TM) ! !http://proximate.org/! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 18:57:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jane Sprague Subject: post-canon canon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If we were to create a post-canon canon, who would be in it? What = mediums might be included in a post-canon canon (digital, print, mail, = visual, performance, etc) represented by the aesthetic tastes of members = of this list? How many of the canon members would be women...would = gender be important or not in our new canon...? *canon*, second only to *can of worms* in the dictionary open on the = desk. Best Regards, Cheers, or Ecclesiastically Yours, Jane ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 17:26:39 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Laura Mullen Subject: Job! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ASSISTANT PROFESSOR OF ENGLISH: CREATIVE WRITING/POETRY Colorado State University Position Assistant Professor of English with a specialty in poetry. This is a tenure-track appointment to begin August 15, 2003 in the MFA and undergraduate Creative Writing Program. Qualifications ! M.F.A. or terminal degree in hand at time of appointment ! At least one book and substantial publications ! Teaching experience with evidence of excellence Preferred International poetry and community outreach interest and experience would be a plus Duties Tenure-track faculty responsibilities include teaching, writing and publication; directing M.F.A. theses; advising; and providing service to the profession. Teaching responsibilities include 4 courses a year until tenure, including graduate workshops, graduate courses in form and technique, undergraduate workshops, and both graduate and undergraduate literature courses. Salary will be commensurate with assistant professor rank and experience. Application Procedures and Deadlines Applicants should send a current curriculum vitae; a letter of interest; a writing sample (book or selection of roughly 50 pages); a dossier which includes evidence of strengths in teaching and creative writing; and three letters of reference. Submit applications to Professor Steven Schwartz, Chair, Creative Writing/Poetry Search Committee, Department of English, Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO 80523-1773. Routine inquiries should be directed to Sue Russell at: Phone (970) 491-1898 or Email: Sue.Russell@colostate.edu. The Department will conduct preliminary interviews at the December meeting of the MLA. This is an “open search”: once the search committee has identified semi-finalists, departmental faculty will have access to those files. Applications will be considered until the position is filled; however, for full consideration, applications must be postmarked by November 15, 2002. General Information Colorado State University (22,500 students) is located in Fort Collins, a rapidly growing community of 110,000 at the base of the Rocky Mountain Front Range, 60 miles north of Denver. The English Department has a tenure-track faculty of 45, approximately 410 undergraduate majors, and more than 140 graduate students. We appoint more than 45 graduate assistants. Undergraduate concentrations in creative writing, language, literature, teaching licensure, and writing lead to a B.A. in English. Master of Arts degrees are offered in communication development, literature, rhetoric and composition, teaching, and TESL. A Master of Fine Arts is offered in creative writing. More information is available on the English Department Home Page at: http://www.colostate.edu/Depts/English. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 17:03:26 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Damian Judge Rollison Subject: Poem In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII TO DRIVE THROUGH JUNE It would be interesting to drive through June. I would think about it sometimes. The help I received was called extra, in corridors it sits like a diamond statute. Is it permissible to imagine a red corpus. The feeling was one of disintegration. This would be faster than thinking. Move to examine the table. The table was left out in the cold. Increased chance of calling you up, seventy-five percent humility. Hugely important I thought, a great step forward for the sentences. It was a jabbing motion. Not accelerating, not damaged. The doctor tells me you're waiting for a signal. Last night it was different. Togetherness? Say so and I'll leap quiescently into the gap. Partitioned from the electorate the test pattern is static. Coffee and empathy. Yes to questions. Sort it out secondhand. Dressing for the event, I made no reply. Your shirt was longer than expected. Dawn was an affair with tassels. Sawing logs is what they call it. To bring about a furnished example, mix frank assurances with zest. Try folding twice instantly and waive reward. You should hear a crack. Kind of low energy all day long. Garbage was paving the sidewalk, suggesting a mass exodus. Some renegade futurists made it a national pastime. Entertaining the tropes. Salvation Army was a way of marking time. Each store's unique racks of red, stacks of yellow. Whites not in evidence. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< damian judge rollison department of english university of virginia djr4r@virginia.edu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 17:47:46 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: Re: post-canon canon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii from Jane: If we were to create a post-canon canon, who would be in it? What mediums might be included in a post-canon canon (digital, print, mail, visual, performance, etc) represented by the aesthetic tastes of members of this list? How many of the canon members would be women...would gender be important or not in our new canon...? =========== hmmmm...lessssseeeee... Jason Nelson Kate Armstrong Jessica Loesby Chris Fahey Jennifer Ley Deena Larsen ][][][]hypermedia][][][][][][] poets Sheila Murphy John Bennett Carla Harryman Lyn Hejinian Clark Coolidge Ron Silliman John Ashbery Claude Royet-Journoud Anne-Marie Albaich Diane Ward Yves Bonnefoy Aime Cesaire Lorca Paul Celan Mary Rising Higgins Laura Riding Peter Ganick Kari Edwards Lakey Teasdale Robert Desnos! Ted Berrigan! and so many many others... bliss l ===== Anningan (in progress) http://www.lewislacook.com/Anningan/AnningansDoor.html http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html meditation, net art, poeisis: blog http://lewislacook.blogspot.com/ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 21:39:46 -0500 Reply-To: Allen Bramhall Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Allen Bramhall Subject: re post-canon canon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit if we were to create a post-canon canon, we'd be just sitting in another pile of ink, tho that transmoded idiom would fail us as well. you want names? places where we have been? a conjecture freely taken from this thing that fits the middle of my hand, and yet can itself become a subject: it is a sentence. let's just examine one sentence as a fierce freehold for all sentences, and the people who love them. the canon is why the freebooters took the city. would people be important in this canon, so called, or just the dire sentence so intoned? containment provides the initial alert, then we reach the school. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 21:34:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jane Sprague Subject: Re: post-canon canon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lewis, Care to draw a line toward the *many others*? And I am curious about the *why* of these choices...since we're canonizing...one detail about one or more of the people you listed...specifically- what innovation/experiment/technique/device/lexicon/etc that casts them in a divine scope? I would have to add Harryette Mullen for polyphonic wit, fused orality/literacy and tacit syntactic tactics... -JS ----- Original Message ----- From: "lewis lacook" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 8:47 PM Subject: Re: post-canon canon > from Jane: > If we were to create a post-canon canon, who would be > in it? What mediums might be included in a post-canon > canon (digital, print, mail, visual, performance, etc) > represented by the aesthetic tastes of members of this > list? How many of the canon members would be > women...would gender be important or not in our new > canon...? > > =========== > hmmmm...lessssseeeee... > Jason Nelson > Kate Armstrong > Jessica Loesby > Chris Fahey > Jennifer Ley > Deena Larsen > ][][][]hypermedia][][][][][][] > > > poets > Sheila Murphy > John Bennett > Carla Harryman > Lyn Hejinian > Clark Coolidge > Ron Silliman > John Ashbery > Claude Royet-Journoud > Anne-Marie Albaich > Diane Ward > Yves Bonnefoy > Aime Cesaire > Lorca > Paul Celan > Mary Rising Higgins > Laura Riding > Peter Ganick > Kari Edwards > Lakey Teasdale > > Robert Desnos! > Ted Berrigan! > > > and so many many others... > > bliss > l > > > > ===== > > Anningan (in progress) http://www.lewislacook.com/Anningan/AnningansDoor.html > http://www.lewislacook.com/ > http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html > meditation, net art, poeisis: blog http://lewislacook.blogspot.com/ > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now > http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 21:56:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Geoffrey Gatza Subject: Re: post-canon canon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jane, Lewis was refering to Me in the form of 'many others ...' He was being kind to not inflate my head. He knows this kind of worship is too much for me to bare. The reason why is obvious -- no one is better than The Canon and why should there be .... when the canon is Me. I hope this clears up things :-) Best, St Geoffrey of Gatza ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jane Sprague" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 9:34 PM Subject: Re: post-canon canon > Lewis, > Care to draw a line toward the *many others*? And I am curious about the > *why* of these choices...since we're canonizing...one detail about one or > more of the people you listed...specifically- what > innovation/experiment/technique/device/lexicon/etc that casts them in a > divine scope? > I would have to add Harryette Mullen for polyphonic wit, fused > orality/literacy and tacit syntactic tactics... > -JS > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "lewis lacook" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 8:47 PM > Subject: Re: post-canon canon > > > > from Jane: > > If we were to create a post-canon canon, who would be > > in it? What mediums might be included in a post-canon > > canon (digital, print, mail, visual, performance, etc) > > represented by the aesthetic tastes of members of this > > list? How many of the canon members would be > > women...would gender be important or not in our new > > canon...? > > > > =========== > > hmmmm...lessssseeeee... > > Jason Nelson > > Kate Armstrong > > Jessica Loesby > > Chris Fahey > > Jennifer Ley > > Deena Larsen > > ][][][]hypermedia][][][][][][] > > > > > > poets > > Sheila Murphy > > John Bennett > > Carla Harryman > > Lyn Hejinian > > Clark Coolidge > > Ron Silliman > > John Ashbery > > Claude Royet-Journoud > > Anne-Marie Albaich > > Diane Ward > > Yves Bonnefoy > > Aime Cesaire > > Lorca > > Paul Celan > > Mary Rising Higgins > > Laura Riding > > Peter Ganick > > Kari Edwards > > Lakey Teasdale > > > > Robert Desnos! > > Ted Berrigan! > > > > > > and so many many others... > > > > bliss > > l > > > > > > > > ===== > > > > Anningan (in progress) > http://www.lewislacook.com/Anningan/AnningansDoor.html > > http://www.lewislacook.com/ > > http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html > > meditation, net art, poeisis: blog http://lewislacook.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now > > http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 22:15:02 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: Virginia is Flush and Flaws What Never Fuels Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed down to you: Virginia was made for a series of festivals that work: the devil's color seemed alien to a different color not released: this world hides behind two screens some would have it: physical and spiritual electronic reinterpretation: choreography ran thin when it moved beautiful: the schedule was always overshadowed in thirty years I can't describe: good-humor motorized to equalize the latest pastoral central projection: loud & clear like an elefish jellyphant the sun: strapwork licentiously flying through mainframe ricochet Virginia's entablature: DON'T FALL FOR ANY OFF-BRAND VIRGINIAS a mirror: begin with the translation & let the source find its own way farmer's daughter: every other ingredient embarrasses the dish shooting-manual: persuasion is the handmaid of poesy the Sleeper: violence shimmied with the godsend's biggest body dotted rhythm: my first exposure to dragging the river for Latin poets ear-splitting moon: Didi and Gogo wait for the Great Pumpkin Mistadobalina: the very thing as anxious as flesh a whole lot: Jeff Harrison is the name left over from interruption terribly impressed: a toothbrush soaked in whatever suits the occasion a peroration: pictures should NEVER be associated with fragrances identifiable: only twenty stories are covered with tradition blood decree: a sharp quarter may own the two thirds untouched: the month of June is desirous of the title "murderess" _________________________________________________________________ Broadband? Dial-up? Get reliable MSN Internet Access. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 23:08:01 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: post-canon canon In-Reply-To: <002401c28070$0a727180$11e096d1@Jane> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v543) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit in the post-canon canon there is no past there is no future this is only now. -DATA RAM DOS On Wednesday, October 30, 2002, at 05:57 PM, Jane Sprague wrote: > If we were to create a post-canon canon, who would be in it? What > mediums might be included in a post-canon canon (digital, print, mail, > visual, performance, etc) represented by the aesthetic tastes of > members of this list? How many of the canon members would be > women...would gender be important or not in our new canon...? > > *canon*, second only to *can of worms* in the dictionary open on the > desk. > > > Best Regards, Cheers, or Ecclesiastically Yours, > Jane > > mIEKAL aND memexikon@mwt.net | ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 02:26:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ken Rumble Subject: from "Key Bridge" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" from "Key Bridge" Take a ticky tack tock tookay there is a dream of the city before the city, during the city, after the city In the dream, the city sees a giant peeling pears with its teeth. "Which way to Mobile, to Decatur?" she asks. The giant's glowing nipples and imagist hair. The giant is not the giant but is. The city carries a carpetbag he thinks is Wisconsin and acts like a French toupee. River racing through the air, the city tries to say "the ground" down, down, but can't find its head in the clouds. The giant calls himself "T. Tickey" and pulls a coin from his food. On the ledge, the city sees "T" as almost ant-like, like a satellite would, like an album cover of the world's smallest band -- beneath the ledge there is another. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 07:26:04 -0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lakey Teasdale Subject: Virginia. the knotty thread swan-upping (For Sheila Murphy) Comments: To: "WRYTING-L : Writing and Theory across Disciplines" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Virginia. the knotty thread swan-upping 1 Mostleens on the quoy you can glisk a dim infinitely=20 until the haze of har confers a double blind.=20 2 The two of them produced you won't believe this: seven signets.=20 Until the one ran foul against the rage and coarse the rasp.=20 3 The gale was stronger than they thought and children=20 will not always listen will approach a skreever headlong. Gasp.=20 4 At least you say his mother warned him, distances not anything at all:=20 the arid desert rang. And rang again and cuts through all the crap.=20 5 It may be an anterran spit in the wind, the hollow sound produced by=20 boxwood readiness and tuned in C or F. 6 But no. You know it birls a really tullimentan cut. And when she hears she listens. and it birls. a really for really tull- imentan cut. and when she hears she listens. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 07:20:01 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: post-canon canon In-Reply-To: <002401c28070$0a727180$11e096d1@Jane> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" what's behind a question like this? wouldn't the point of a post-canon canon be to not revolve around pronouns like "who"? what determines the postness of an endeavor like this; what makes it more than a revision along slightly tweaked lines? At 6:57 PM -0500 10/30/02, Jane Sprague wrote: >If we were to create a post-canon canon, who would be in it? What >mediums might be included in a post-canon canon (digital, print, >mail, visual, performance, etc) represented by the aesthetic tastes >of members of this list? How many of the canon members would be >women...would gender be important or not in our new canon...? > >*canon*, second only to *can of worms* in the dictionary open on the desk. > > >Best Regards, Cheers, or Ecclesiastically Yours, >Jane -- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 07:28:14 -0500 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: canon eh,,,cannon, u. say,... yes,we in the avant-garde army are trained to blow em away...cannons to the right & manymanymanymany more cannons to the left..drn.. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 04:45:26 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: shrunken coffee Comments: To: "arc.hive" <_arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au>, cupcake kaleidoscope , Renee , rhizome , wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Such a blizzard of verbiage leaves its silt on the coffee. Lean over to blow it cold with a soft spot of pain cradled in your head, and you'll see I'm right (as always), though slightly smaller. Should I cut my hair short this weekend, or leave it to grow hormone thumbs and infect the lexicon with starving? Frost spun like silk soot from spiders' throngs pushed prisms to my eyes, and you too grope radiant spools in the dark of carpal lackluster awe, tummy buttered with gerund deflection, like spitting pits of periods into your words to call it code. This will make you famous among everyone who could possibly know you, at least those with no linguistics; in case of fire, break axe over neck. I'm going bald anyway; soon, having lost to snowballs and ascii, I'll ask you to place your ever-widening thumb over that shrink of breathing my head makes next to yours; I'll ask you to push, push hard, until the coffee comes out. We'll find a word for it yet. ===== Anningan (in progress) http://www.lewislacook.com/Anningan/AnningansDoor.html http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html meditation, net art, poeisis: blog http://lewislacook.blogspot.com/ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 08:50:23 -0500 Reply-To: bstefans@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Brian Stefans [arras.net]" Subject: Germany and U.S. Tentatively Ease Chill in Relationship MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Germany and U.S. Tentatively Ease Chill in Relationship by D.T. SUZUKI http://www.arras.net/us_germany_ease_chill.htm [I figure I have 7 more days left to comply, so might as well have fun with it, though this one might be a tad too acidic. It won't be up for long. If you don't want to receive these kinds of emails from me, please TELL ME, I'll put your address in a special "leave me alone" folder. Kiss kiss -- brian] ____ A R R A S: new media poetry and poetics http://www.arras.net Hinka cumfae cashore canfeh, Ahl hityi oar hied 'caw taughtie! "Do you think just because I come from Carronshore I cannot fight? I shall hit you over the head with a cold potatoe." ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 14:13:22 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Lasko Subject: Re: minnesota Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed The widows of Iraq are that rare breed who (a) know what to shop for at a fetish market (there are plenty of these in Baghdad) to ward off appearances of djinn & daemons, and (b) are dead shots with their imported Kalishnakovs. If these don't constitute Karma, then Amerika ain't been discovered yet. Kat >From: George Bowering >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: minnesota >Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 12:57:46 -0700 > >>well the karma won't come back around in a straightforward way, but i >>have more faith in it than in antagonistic Abombers at this point in >>my life. love, md > >Boy, I hope there is karma. I wonder whether that is what widows in >Iraq are saying. > >I mean we know that Iraq doesnt have atomic weapons. If they did, >Bush and the Texans would not think of bombing it. >-- >George Bowering >Open to suggestions. >Fax 604-266-9000 _________________________________________________________________ Broadband? Dial-up? Get reliable MSN Internet Access. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 09:10:23 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Prageeta Sharma Subject: KAYA PRESS NOVEMBER READINGS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable kaya presents for more information, please visit www.kaya.com josey foo tomie=E2=80=99s chair =E2=80=9Cprovocative and arresting=E2=80=9D=20= =E2=80=94 arthur sze sesshu foster city terrace field manual and aztex (forthcoming) =E2=80=9Cpure california mainlined straight into language=E2=80=9D =E2=80= =94 alvin lu, san francisco=20 bay guardian ed lin waylaid =E2=80=9Clin=E2=80=99s unsentimental, purely realist=E2=80= =A6novel raises hopes that American fiction may yet grow up=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 ray olson, booklist 11/9 7:30 p.m. printmakers gallery, 1732 connecticut ave nw, washington dc 202-332-7757 www.dcpoetry.com/rgrip.htm josey 11/13 8 p.m. poetry project, 131 east 10th street, new york 212-674-0910 www.poetryproject.com ed josey sesshu 11/14 7:30 p.m. halcyon, 227 smith street, brooklyn 718-260-9299 www.halcyonline.com josey 11/19 12:30 p.m. kelly writer=E2=80=99s house, 3805 locust walk, philadelphi= a 215-573-9748 www.english.upenn.edu/~wh josey 11/20 7 p.m. knitting factory, 74 leonard street, new york ed josey 212-219-3006 www.knittingfactory.com thanx, rattapallax! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 14:21:11 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: A MEETING FOR DOUGLAS OLIVER Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Now available----- A MEETING FOR DOUGLAS OLIVER and 27 Uncollected Poems To honour the memory of the poet Douglas Oliver (1937-2000), a collection of poems and texts by those who took part in a memorial meeting in London in October 2000. Poems by John James, David Chaloner, Wendy Mulford, Peter Riley, Allen Fisher, Tony Lopez, Ken Edwards, Kelvin Corcoran, Pete Smith, Nicholas Johnson. Essays on the work and presence of Douglas Oliver by John Hall and Denise Riley. Translated/presented texts by Andrew Brewerton and Kevin Nolan And a collection of 27 poems by Douglas Oliver, previously unpublished or uncollected, dating from the late 1960s to his last poem of February 2000. 96pp hardback with a dustjacket designed by Julia Ball, set in Monotype Fournier by Ewan Smith. Limited edition of 300 copies. This is a beautifully produced book in honour of a brilliant poet and great-hearted man. Available from Peter Riley (Books) 27 Sturton Street, Cambridge CB1 2QG. UK. 'phone 01223 576422. e-mail priley@dircon.co.uk Due to a subscription fund which assisted publication, the book is available at the low price of ten pounds. Please add postage/packing charges thus--- U.K. 1 pound 50 Europe 2 pounds Rest of world (air-mail) 4 pounds (surface mail) 2 pounds Cheques to Peter Riley (Books) Non-sterling payments: please add =A34.00 PayPal account holders can be billed in U.S. dollars by e-mail. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 09:31:20 -0500 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: minn.... yawohl.....ve are with the vomen of Iraq...ve sell em alles......ve djinn...ve alvays vinn.....ve are agin var uber...(herr)dr(n)... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 06:50:10 -0800 Reply-To: waldreid@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: waldreid@EARTHLINK.NET Subject: new book / venue advice / reading announcement Hello All, My new book, THE YELLOW HOTEL, is just out from Verse Press and I am looking for reading venues. I would be interested to know of any good ones in New England, NY, NJ, Philadelphia, or Baltimore (where I would be willing to go for free) and any others elsewhere that might provide travel expenses. Kindly backchannel. Also: I’m delighted to be reading with Arielle Greenberg and Caroline Knox, who also have new books out on Verse Press, at Wordsworth Books in Cambridge, MA, at 5 p.m. on Sunday, November 10, and would love to see you there. Many thanks, Diane Wald ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 10:22:13 -0500 Reply-To: Allen Bramhall Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Allen Bramhall Subject: dime store, the former glossary MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit so it seems one can be happy in or out of list. just to be frank, we met on the border of the country next door, expecting a tad of refreshment before nuclear time. it is officially later when the clock shows its candid nature. the train stops on schedule but we find that the wind has lost trusty sentences forever. we who look over our shoulders are always surprised by the train speeding toward us. we say, this is quite a situation. will the train finish what it has to say as we watch the caboose recede? will that be 'it'? maybe so, research is ongoing. gladly, tho, the farfetched sentence will smirk on another horizon while the rascals and their paychecks become enamoured by something even further into the dark. what a wasteland to talk about, with bright ideas masquerading as train tracks. let's mark our glory now, with long lists, and resume our sentimental praxis. by god, the changes at the brink will do us good. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 10:56:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jane Sprague Subject: Re: post-canon canon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > what's behind a question like this? Behind a question like this is the idea of explosive reinvention. > wouldn't the point of a post-canon canon be to not revolve around > pronouns like "who"? The presumption is that there are particular individuals, "who's" that inform our writing and reading. Or if not whose, then what? To unoblique the obvious: *Canon* itself is problematic- some compass whose magnet is definitely fixed on untrue north. The question is, if you were to articulate the who or the what or the how of what comprises a personally *true north* interpretation of poetry *now* what would go into this mix? Its interesting that people are unsettled by this word, canon. It is, after all, a weapon. > what determines the postness of an endeavor like this; what makes it > more than a revision along slightly tweaked lines And whereas handguns are constructed with basically one purpose, the canon is multiplicitous. So explode the sky a little. Make a firework. And let it be names or concepts or visual art or whatever gets you off. Or sentences, but...what gets your fingers twitching, and your thoughts? Is it too problematic to ask for specificity? Maybe our post-canon canon is just ether. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maria Damon" To: Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 8:20 AM Subject: Re: post-canon canon > > At 6:57 PM -0500 10/30/02, Jane Sprague wrote: > >If we were to create a post-canon canon, who would be in it? What > >mediums might be included in a post-canon canon (digital, print, > >mail, visual, performance, etc) represented by the aesthetic tastes > >of members of this list? How many of the canon members would be > >women...would gender be important or not in our new canon...? > > > >*canon*, second only to *can of worms* in the dictionary open on the desk. > > > > > >Best Regards, Cheers, or Ecclesiastically Yours, > >Jane > > > -- > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 10:50:06 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: research fellowship opportunity Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >X-From_: amstdy@tc.umn.edu Thu Oct 31 09:09:41 2002 >X-Sender: amstdy@amstdy.email.umn.edu >Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 09:09:24 -0600 >To: (Recipient list suppressed) >From: American Studies >Subject: Fwd: fwd to core, adjunct, and grad >X-Umn-Remote-Mta: [N] x94-64-23.ej1040.umn.edu #+LO+TR >X-Umn-Remote-Mta: [N] mhub-w2.tc.umn.edu #+LO+TR > > >>X-From_: cafs@tc.umn.edu Thu Oct 31 08:58:51 2002 >>X-Sender: cafs@cafs.email.umn.edu >>X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) >>Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 09:18:48 -0600 >>To: amstdy@tc.umn.edu >>From: ncrw-member-list-owner (by way of Anna >>Clark ) >>Subject: fwd to core, adjunct, and grad >>X-Umn-Remote-Mta: [N] x94-244-80.ej1071.umn.edu #+LO+TR >>X-Umn-Remote-Mta: [N] mhub-w2.tc.umn.edu #+LO+TR >> >>FELLOWSHIP OPPORTUNITIES >> >>FIVE COLLEGE WOMEN'S STUDIES RESEARCH CENTER >>A collaborative project of Amherst, Hampshire, Mount Holyoke, and >>Smith Colleges and the University of Massachusetts, Amherst >> >>The Center invites applications for its Research Associateships for >>2003-2004 from scholars and teachers at all levels of the educational >>system, as well as from artists, community organizers and political >>activists, both local and international. Associates are provided with >>offices in our spacious facility, computer access, library privileges, >>and the collegiality of a diverse community of feminists. Research >>Associate applications are accepted for either a semester or the >>academic year. The Center supports projects in all disciplines so >>long as they focus centrally on women or gender. Research >>Associateships are non-stipendiary. However, international applicants >>may apply for one of the two special one-semester Ford Associateships >>for Fall 2003 or Spring 2004, which offer a stipend of $12,000, plus >>a $3,000 housing/travel allowance in return for teaching (in English) >>one undergraduate women's studies course at Smith College. Ford >>applicants' research should focus on how the economics of >>globalization regulate gender, race, ethnicity, nationality, class, >>and sexuality in Latin America, the Caribbean, Africa, the Middle >>East, the former Soviet bloc, or Asia. We are searching for two Ford >>Associate positions. For one position preference will be given to >>those whose work focuses on sexuality in a global context, including >>sex work, global sex trafficking, health issues, international gay >>and lesbian activism and advocacy for sexual minorities. For the >>second position, preference will be given to those whose work focuses >>on cultural production and resistance, including political >>performance, the transformation and use of international media, and >>new technologies. Ford applicants need not be studying their own >>region of origin. >> >>Applicants for both programs should submit a project proposal (up to >>4 pages), curriculum vitae, two letters of reference, and application >>cover sheet. In addition, Ford applicants should submit a two-page >>description of a women's studies course they are prepared to teach, >>which includes their pedagogical goals and techniques. >> >>Submit all applications to: >>Five College Women's Studies Research Center >>Mount Holyoke College >>50 College Street >>South Hadley, MA 01075-6406 >> >>Deadline is February 10, 2003 >> >>For further information >>contact the Center at >>TEL 413.538.2275 >>FAX 413.538.3121 >>email fcwsrc@wscenter.hampshire.edu >>website: http://wscenter.hampshire.edu/ >> >>==^================================================================ >>This email was sent to: cafs@tc.umn.edu >> >>EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://igc.topica.com/u/?aVxipo.aVxUaD.Y2Fmc0B0 >>Or send an email to: ncrw-member-list-unsubscribe@igc.topica.com >> >>T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! >>http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register >>==^================================================================ -- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 08:41:24 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: post-canon canon In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I agree with Maria. The only use of a new canon that I can imagine is for the simulation of an now ancient war tool the only current application of which would be to try to heroically posture and invite an early post-mortem. I think we have enough of those people at the leadership of our current government. Canon, adios! Stephen V on 10/31/02 5:20 AM, Maria Damon at damon001@UMN.EDU wrote: > what's behind a question like this? > wouldn't the point of a post-canon canon be to not revolve around > pronouns like "who"? > what determines the postness of an endeavor like this; what makes it > more than a revision along slightly tweaked lines? > > At 6:57 PM -0500 10/30/02, Jane Sprague wrote: >> If we were to create a post-canon canon, who would be in it? What >> mediums might be included in a post-canon canon (digital, print, >> mail, visual, performance, etc) represented by the aesthetic tastes >> of members of this list? How many of the canon members would be >> women...would gender be important or not in our new canon...? >> >> *canon*, second only to *can of worms* in the dictionary open on the desk. >> >> >> Best Regards, Cheers, or Ecclesiastically Yours, >> Jane > > > -- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 09:05:40 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: post-canon canon - woops! In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Woops, I did confuse the "cannon" with "Canon" - artillery as different from Church Law. I beg your sympathy for an old learning disability. (What's occasional good for making a poem is not good for straight composition!). My apologies to the Church. And is that what this is about? No wonder that Rachel stole George Bowering's socks. Stephen V on 10/31/02 8:41 AM, Stephen Vincent at steph484@PACBELL.NET wrote: > I agree with Maria. The only use of a new canon that I can imagine is for > the simulation of an now ancient war tool the only current application of > which would be to try to heroically posture and invite an early post-mortem. > I think we have enough of those people at the leadership of our current > government. > Canon, adios! > > Stephen V > > on 10/31/02 5:20 AM, Maria Damon at damon001@UMN.EDU wrote: > >> what's behind a question like this? >> wouldn't the point of a post-canon canon be to not revolve around >> pronouns like "who"? >> what determines the postness of an endeavor like this; what makes it >> more than a revision along slightly tweaked lines? >> >> At 6:57 PM -0500 10/30/02, Jane Sprague wrote: >>> If we were to create a post-canon canon, who would be in it? What >>> mediums might be included in a post-canon canon (digital, print, >>> mail, visual, performance, etc) represented by the aesthetic tastes >>> of members of this list? How many of the canon members would be >>> women...would gender be important or not in our new canon...? >>> >>> *canon*, second only to *can of worms* in the dictionary open on the desk. >>> >>> >>> Best Regards, Cheers, or Ecclesiastically Yours, >>> Jane >> >> >> -- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 12:12:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Rothenberg Subject: Re: post-canon canon - woops! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "The canon is better than the pistola"--Joanne Kyger ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen Vincent" To: Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 12:05 PM Subject: Re: post-canon canon - woops! > Woops, I did confuse the "cannon" with "Canon" - artillery as different from > Church Law. I beg your sympathy for an old learning disability. (What's > occasional good for making a poem is not good for straight composition!). > My apologies to the Church. And is that what this is about? > No wonder that Rachel stole George Bowering's socks. > > Stephen V > > > > on 10/31/02 8:41 AM, Stephen Vincent at steph484@PACBELL.NET wrote: > > > I agree with Maria. The only use of a new canon that I can imagine is for > > the simulation of an now ancient war tool the only current application of > > which would be to try to heroically posture and invite an early post-mortem. > > I think we have enough of those people at the leadership of our current > > government. > > Canon, adios! > > > > Stephen V > > > > on 10/31/02 5:20 AM, Maria Damon at damon001@UMN.EDU wrote: > > > >> what's behind a question like this? > >> wouldn't the point of a post-canon canon be to not revolve around > >> pronouns like "who"? > >> what determines the postness of an endeavor like this; what makes it > >> more than a revision along slightly tweaked lines? > >> > >> At 6:57 PM -0500 10/30/02, Jane Sprague wrote: > >>> If we were to create a post-canon canon, who would be in it? What > >>> mediums might be included in a post-canon canon (digital, print, > >>> mail, visual, performance, etc) represented by the aesthetic tastes > >>> of members of this list? How many of the canon members would be > >>> women...would gender be important or not in our new canon...? > >>> > >>> *canon*, second only to *can of worms* in the dictionary open on the desk. > >>> > >>> > >>> Best Regards, Cheers, or Ecclesiastically Yours, > >>> Jane > >> > >> > >> -- > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 09:13:50 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nick LoLordo Subject: Re: post-canon canon In-Reply-To: <001901c280f6$165e1590$cde296d1@Jane> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit If I may be permitted just a _hint_ of exasperation: we academics (amongst whom you might count yourself, Jane, for all I know, though hereabouts we usually 'know em by their .edu suffix)--we academics have been batting this particular one around for one hell of a long time. Nothing in your two messages suggests that you've assimilated the debate. By all means name some artists whose work you think important: that's not creating a canon, that's making a list of artists whose work you think important. Canons get created via lengthy, institutional processes. See Guillory, _Cultural Capital_, Golding _From Outlaw to Classic_, etc, etc, etc........ crankily yrs Nick Quoting Jane Sprague : > > what's behind a question like this? > Behind a question like this is the idea of explosive reinvention. > > wouldn't the point of a post-canon canon be to not revolve around > > pronouns like "who"? > The presumption is that there are particular individuals, "who's" that > inform our writing and reading. Or if not whose, then what? To unoblique the > obvious: *Canon* itself is problematic- some compass whose magnet is > definitely fixed on untrue north. > The question is, if you were to articulate the who or the what or the how of > what comprises a personally *true north* interpretation of poetry *now* what > would go into this mix? Its interesting that people are unsettled by this > word, canon. It is, after all, a weapon. > > what determines the postness of an endeavor like this; what makes it > > more than a revision along slightly tweaked lines > And whereas handguns are constructed with basically one purpose, the canon > is multiplicitous. So explode the sky a little. Make a firework. And let it > be names or concepts or visual art or whatever gets you off. Or sentences, > but...what gets your fingers twitching, and your thoughts? Is it too > problematic to ask for specificity? Maybe our post-canon canon is just > ether. Vincent Nicholas LoLordo Assistant Professor Department of English University of Nevada-Las Vegas Las Vegas, NV 89154 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 09:58:00 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Corbett Subject: Re: post-canon canon In-Reply-To: <001901c280f6$165e1590$cde296d1@Jane> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII How about a Poetry Top 20? (Again with the music analogies...) Top 20 in the last 20...10...5 Or, a game we have played before: what's on my bookshelf. I am not being entirely facetious (although I could go there) with this. I think what Jane is getting out is the desire to give props to folks or honor our elders--especially when we see them as obscured by the fuss and must of the fucking mainstream. However, I kinda agree with Maria, but in a different register. Canons take institutions. A canon is not just the text, but the ancillary commentary which shapes and informs the reception of the canonized text. If you want power, canonize away...though like Leninism, decanonization is somewhat optimistic about what results when you seize the means of power (rather than the means of reproduction). Robert -- Robert Corbett "I will discuss perfidy with scholars as rcor@u.washington.edu as if spurning kisses, I will sip Department of English the marble marrow of empire. I want sugar University of Washington but I shall never wear shame and if you call that sophistry then what is Love" - Lisa Robertson ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 13:19:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: poem Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed She's My Best Friend Concerned waif of my adolescences Apologies for the Love that pissed you Off during smokebreaks and Office hours While toppling your Plastic cow into thrashing Fits Folly came along your stern and Bow Skies that were ruined in Mass transit Songs that have now come to mean Noise She don't wanna be my friend no more Although gray and No longer desirable, she's my favorite Thing while clutching and Squeezing out all Bile and dark blood The stone I once took for a pump She don't wanna Be my friend, Whether AM or FM, no more Turn the knobs past off and Broken Marry each and every Loser boyfriend she's my best Friend while focusing a Compound eye upon my Salty mixtures Fingers that scratch become tendrils that stick to lame regrets and faces going Blank _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 13:31:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: poem Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed God Save the Whales and Wolves Tandems of Cloudy experience pinwheel into Profound juxtapositions That question the Very core of your goods Thank heaven for the dying Stars that no longer clutter Or grant cover, you are mostly Liquids, whatever's Around Cheap fumes and haymakers for example Or the milk of your Mom, just how it irked you Before Teach me to Teleport and Telegram, I am no Good to you This way, Evening to Breakfast Which is getting Later and more invisible Inspiration comes from My tumbles headlong into the Big bangs Make rash decisions Everywhere Quaintly Planning out only when to fuck up Anew Send me an angle, give me a Pocket for once Leave me death and all its symbols, contradicting My vast assumptions on *all Subjects* I'm between every Destination and alibi Shuddering to drink _________________________________________________________________ Unlimited Internet access -- and 2 months free! Try MSN. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/2monthsfree.asp ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 14:02:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "J. Kuszai" Subject: Re: post-canon canon In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" i just read Fanny Howe's "selected poems" and was very impressed by her verse skills is she canonical? in any case, one vote for F.H., thanks. -- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 14:15:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: ! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed "Jeb Bush put his hand in his head and slumped in his chair." NEW YORK TIMES 10/31/02 pg. A22 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "The university professes the truth, and that is its profession. It declares and promises an unlimited commitment to the truth." Jacques Derrida (Without Alibi 202) Aldon Lynn Nielsen George and Barbara Kelly Professor of American Literature Department of English The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 13:15:26 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: Re: post-canon canon In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed then Stephen Vincent erred homonymously: >"Woops, I did confuse the 'cannon' with 'Canon' - artillery as different" De artillitate: The following is from Heron's _Belopoeica_. "The largest and most essential part of philosophical study deals with tranquility, about which a great many researches have been made and still are being made by those who concern themselves with learning; and I think the search for tranquility will never reach a definite conclusion through the argumentative method. But Mechanics, by means of one of its smallest branches -- I mean, of course, the one dealing with what is called artillery-construction -- has surpassed argumentative training in this score and taught mankind to live a tranquil life." This translation of _Belopoeica_ is taken from Mardsden's _Greek and Roman Artillery: Technical Treatises_ (Oxford: Clarendon, 1971). ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 14:29:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jane Sprague Subject: Can Nun Worms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Partial Recipe for Cannonshot: www.fodderspot.org Stein Dickinson Hejinian Silliman Celan Mullen Brathwaite Cha Niedecker Notley Olson mix equal parts by volume sprinkle with institutions assimilate the obvious pack into narrow funnel ignite view through camera obscura thank you backchannelers for your candor and your willingness to name = the names (in secret...) JS ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 11:29:11 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K. Silem Mohammad" Subject: Re: ! In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20021031141325.00a68428@email.psu.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 10/31/02 11:15 AM, Aldon Nielsen at aln10@PSU.EDU wrote: > "Jeb Bush put his hand in his head and slumped in his chair." > > NEW YORK TIMES 10/31/02 pg. A22 First that pretzel incident of Dubya's, and now this. It almost makes you dare to hope that if we just sit back and wait, they'll finish themselves off.... K. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 14:43:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Rothenberg Subject: Re: Can Nun Worms a big one whalun MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit whalenwhalewhalen!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jane Sprague" To: Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 2:29 PM Subject: Can Nun Worms Partial Recipe for Cannonshot: www.fodderspot.org Stein Dickinson Hejinian Silliman Celan Mullen Brathwaite Cha Niedecker Notley Olson mix equal parts by volume sprinkle with institutions assimilate the obvious pack into narrow funnel ignite view through camera obscura thank you backchannelers for your candor and your willingness to name the names (in secret...) JS ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 19:50:36 -0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lakey Teasdale Subject: climb Everest in lace, Virginia Comments: To: "WRYTING-L : Writing and Theory across Disciplines" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable climb Everest in lace, Virginia=20 to be hoist but not how you would think if you thought of the possible, possibly possible with a petard that bard was=20 something elseagain. What was your name? and/or not,=20 Virginia: Get off that rug. And never you mind those four inches, sailor, cubed you've got almost a rod, reel and bait.=20 Wait, Virginia.=20 Think of the six feet he mentioned surrounded by luscious grip and dip into fleshy stones equal to fourteen pounds slip-over-each and ev-er-y one of six hundred.=20 Now that is something to fold into, hold onto, Mr William Byrd, you can ride or just skate on that Like the fish to Antarctica where the white is read hot.=20 But real cool all the difference between magenta in one separation=20 glows blue in another=20 the other=20 was green=20 and she means=20 that the shutter closed all=20 around the orange burning ball. Have one or one more Stall. Call for it:=20 Purple. Unseen.=20 and dream of the crime you are about to commit. The snows of Kill-I-man-jaro all over the plaice, Virginia.=20 Place it. ahora ahora ahora ahora aurora aurora aurora aurora ahora and borealissimo, carissimo=20 ie you and the Virgin together.=20 One plus one more. Now simply wait, mate. Fate you, sun. And fate you again. Patience might just be the virtue you grate onto pizza. Big body heat melts it. Melts I. Melts eye. The (s)melts into space fine wine and the lace.=20 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 14:47:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: The Poetry Project Subject: Poetry Is News Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit PLEASE REPLY TO AMMIEL ALCALAY OR ANNE WALDMAN AND NOT THE POETRY PROJECT! *** Even though this highlights writers we are sending it out to the Poetry Project e-mail list and are interested in any and all feedback from the community at large. Thank you, Ammiel Alcalay Anne Waldman aaka@earthlink.net a.waldman@mindspring.com *** POETRY IS NEWS As citizens we demonstrate, write letters, and make known our discontent and outrage at government policies. As writers we constantly interact with different audiences in various contexts. We perform, read, teach, get interviewed, and curate public programs. But as more and more people are ready to commit acts of civil disobedience, we cannot continue appearing in public and pretend nothing is happening. POETRY IS NEWS, a forming coalition of poets, proposes to disrupt business as usual, at least within the spheres we have some control over. Some of us have been long active in various forms of political work, some of us are inexperienced but eager to find ways to make our voices heard. The mass public word has been corrupted past constructive use for political change. As word workers, we are calling an initial public meeting to find ways to exert our influence and expand our roles in taking back the word and making it part of public change. Whether we think of our mandate as a poll tax on poets or a bulletin board for agitation, our public activities as poets must first break down the boundaries we set for ourselves. Our goal is to create a body, a presence, and a point of reference that, if not considered when thinking of poetry, would simply cause embarrassment. Is this a good idea? Are there concrete proposals that we can begin implementing quickly, at readings, performances, in classrooms or public spaces? Can we form working relationships with each other in order to transmit different types of expertise, in dealing with the media, in looking for resources, in organizing events? Let us know what you think. Ammiel Alcalay Anne Waldman aaka@earthlink.net a.waldman@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 15:36:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: The Poetry Project Subject: Poetry Project Announcements Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable NEXT WEEK AT THE POETRY PROJECT *** MONDAY NOVEMBER 4 [8:00pm] OPEN READING [sign-up at 7:30pm] WEDNESDAY NOVEMBER 6 [8:00pm] SERGE FAUCHEREAU AND RON PADGETT http://www.poetryproject.com/calendar.html *** MONDAY NOVEMBER 4 [8:00pm] OPEN READING [sign-up at 7:30pm] WEDNESDAY NOVEMBER 6 [8:00pm] SERGE FAUCHEREAU AND RON PADGETT Serge Fauchereau is a French poet and art critic. The first to translate Frank O'Hara into French, he taught at Stony Brook where he became friends with Louis Zukofsky and Louis Simpson. His Lecture de la Poesie Americaine is a wonderful account of his experiences both personal and literary, and covers a wide range of contemporary poets. A prolific author, he has written numerous monographs on 20th-century art and artists such as Fernand L=E9ger and Georges Braque. More than thirty of his titles (fiction and essays) have been translated into various languages. Hi= s book Complete Fiction, a collection of short prose pieces translated by Ron Padgett and John Ashbery, has just been published by Black Square Editions. Since 1994, he has been the artistic consultant of the European Parliament, Espace Leopold, in Brussels. He is currently a curator for the Museo Nacional Centro de Arte Reina Sofia in Madrid. Addressing Ron Padgett's latest collection, You Never Know (Coffee House Press, 2001), John Ashbery writes: "These 'late' poems of Ron Padgett have the clearness, the small sadness, and the big space of Guillaume Apollinaire, one of the many French writers he has translated into English. They are like a glass of transparent Vittel water held against the sky of Paris." Earlier titles include: Bean Spasms (Kulchur, 1967) with Ted Berrigan, Great Balls of Fire (Holt, Rinehart & Winston, 1969; revised ed., Coffee House Press, 1990), The Adventures of Mr. & Mrs. Jim & Ron (Grossman/Viking, 1970) with Jim Dine, Tulsa Kid (Z Press, 1979), New & Selected Poems (David R. Godine, 1995), Albanian Diary (The Figures, 1999), and Poems I Guess I Wrote (Cuz Editions, 2001). A prolific translator, he i= s also the author of several books on education and writing. *** Unless otherwise noted, admission to all events is $10, $7 for students and seniors, and $5 for Poetry Project members. Schedule is subject to change. The Poetry Project is located in St. Mark's Church in-the-Bowery at 131 E. 10th Street, on the corner of 2nd Avenue in Manhattan. Trains F, 6, N, R. The Poetry Project is wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. Please call (212) 674-0910 for more information, or e-mail us at poproj@poetryproject.com. *** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 15:01:32 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: The Illuminati Order: Objectivism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT OK, this is a wonderfully odd message/website. Thought I'd forward it. I love the bit about OBJECTIVISM. Ah, must we use the same term for different things? Personally, I'm going to read _Of Being Numerous_ tonight instead. Call it penance, I guess . . . Best, JG -------------------------Forwarded Message: The Illuminati Order would like to invite you to visit with us at: http://www.illuminatiorder.org This invitation is at the request of someone who cares about you but she wishes to remain ananymous. Kind regards, Grandmaster The Illuminati Order of Bavaria P.S. as a special gift, invest in ADSX (Applied Digital Solutions). It is an illuminati stock which will make you a great deal of money if you buy while it is under $1 ------- End of forwarded message ------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 13:00:57 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: minnesota In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >The widows of Iraq are that rare breed who (a) know what to shop for at a >fetish market (there are plenty of these in Baghdad) to ward off appearances >of djinn & daemons, and (b) are dead shots with their imported Kalishnakovs. > If these don't constitute Karma, then Amerika ain't been discovered yet. >Kat At last, a sign of hope in all this. -- George Bowering Open to suggestions. Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 15:18:11 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: Re: The Illuminati Order: Objectivism In-Reply-To: <3DC145CB.6102.242AF6CC@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT PS. And why anyone would wish to "remain ananymous" is beautifully beyond me. Best Fishes, JG -------------- "Always in a foreign country, the poet uses poetry as interpreter." --Edmond Jabes ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 13:36:09 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: women in The New American Poetry In-Reply-To: <000001c27390$d4a78b30$19000140@Glasscastle> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >What about Carol Berg=E9? She was in the hideously titled (and >Jones/Baraka edited) _Four Young Lady Poets_, along with Moraff, Owens, >and Wakoski. > >Born 1928, so she's actually six years older than Baraka. > >But don't that title say it all? That's nothing compared to the parodies of that title that Ed Sanders used to emit. -- George Bowering Open to suggestions. =46ax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 21:52:39 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Lasko Subject: Re: Can Nun Worms Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed You've got eleven poets here; enough for either a soccer or US football team. Anyone care to name positions for either and/or both? Names are useless w/out position, and of course positions are equally, w/out occupation. nesting nicely meanwhile, Cat >From: Jane Sprague >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Can Nun Worms >Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 14:29:02 -0500 > >Partial Recipe for Cannonshot: www.fodderspot.org > >Stein >Dickinson >Hejinian >Silliman >Celan >Mullen >Brathwaite >Cha >Niedecker >Notley >Olson > > >mix equal parts by volume >sprinkle with institutions >assimilate the obvious >pack into narrow funnel >ignite >view through camera obscura >thank you backchannelers for your candor and your willingness to name the >names (in secret...) >JS _________________________________________________________________ Get a speedy connection with MSN Broadband. Join now! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 17:03:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Apropos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Apropos Apropos They become barricades again -- The men disappear woman receives her robe from the Keeper of Gate passes thru gate backing into robe. Perhaps a fan also?Woman goes back to table she onto platform & is there when lights pick up as tho' had never gone out words feed in one at time until sentence detached are smoking It broken by girl dancing alone Notebooks Martha Graham Nikuko Doctor Leopold Konninger He talking and make no difference - everywhere muscle against uselessness language returns furniture speaks nothing happens hammer or stove gun car book? murmuring removing gives naked thinking about unjustness world Apropos They become barricades again -- The men disappear -- The woman receives her robe from the Keeper of the Gate -- passes thru gate -- backing into robe. Perhaps a fan also? Woman goes back to table -- she goes onto platform & is there when lights pick up men again -- as tho' she had never gone out -- The words feed in one at a time until a sentence is detached -- The men are smoking -- It is broken by a girl dancing alone -- -- from The Notebooks of Martha Graham It is broken by Nikuko dancing alone -- Doctor Leopold Konninger is smoking He is talking and talking and the words make no difference - lights are everywhere - muscle against the uselessness of language Nikuko returns to the furniture -- she speaks -- nothing happens Perhaps a hammer or a stove or a gun or a car or a book? murmuring -- removing a robe. Nikuko gives her robe to Doctor Leopold Konninger -- she is naked -- Nikuko and Doctor Leopold Konninger disappear -- They become barricades again -- -- from Nikuko thinking about the unjustness of the world === ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 15:14:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: Eh! what about syntax, you poets? MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Eh! what about syntax, you poets? -- when the prose goes to poesis’s poses _and opposes_ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 14:26:29 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: reason, science, law In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v546) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable reason, science, law its falling down dead at the down beat ammonia fumes the seven stages=20= four wonders a dozen fired eggs ten rezones why its time to release the=20= balloons in a celebration for the next big revival next in line=20 unemployment tobacco stained childhood adduction side kick with a=20 split decision knockout around the square e next to the other square in=20= the next page in a beryium glow laudanum dull waxy hue so lets do lunch=20= next holocaust microwave give away down a hole can you help me do you=20= have this in a different color a smaller size in line please number 49=20= three past a quarter to nine nine nine sure fine go ahead tick-tock=20 make my day tick-tock but you have to ask your self one question=20 tick-tock before there was eight then the last door on the right with=20 the lucky seven post slap stick lenny bruce al capone replay on the six=20= o=92clock murder theme park kiddy rides for five priest at quitting time=20= magic commuter indenture poly glib hemorrhoihic deposits corner bed=20 for all reason of the solar system wind star trek captains of a family=20= systems based on a double bind triadic blood stain in the mirroring =20 distance lone gun isolated happenings every hundred years war or so at=20= 8 or 9 or 10 on your mark sling up the noose on the cash and carry slow=20= motion cut and paste fat boy baby carriage down eisenstein=92s gang = plank=20 steps to persistence of vision prime time live.=20= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 18:35:23 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Safdie Joseph Subject: Re: World Series- revision Comments: To: Aaron Belz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" How Can One Triumph If One's Pitcher Is A Lackey? (for Aaron Belz) angels are such pests -- mythologically, giants are the superior creatures, the ogres and trolls of our fairy-taled youth -- angels are only important parochially -- even the one that stayed Abraham's hand was more of a Jaynes-like voice of conscience than anything *vivid* (wings, of course, but after Superman those too became superfluous) -- let's talk Bo Belinsky though, Leon Wagner, Dean Chance, they were the angels when it counted, early 60s (the birth of Barry Bonds) sweet smoggy southern California the Beverly Hilton Hotel Chavez Ravine only a gleam in Howard Hughes and cheap local pols' eyes (minus Latinos) (see Ellroy, James) -- but by ten twenty-three seventy-eight (the Lackey's birthdayte) it was all Eagles and cocaine (a quick check of the ephemeris yields the news: Sun Scorpio, Mercury Scorpio, Venus, Mars, Scorpio, the Lackey living large on his Jupiter Return, until the bottom of the fifth, as I type these lines onto a computer for transmission to 932 people whose company I'll relinquish after one final post about Olomouc, where I sojourned for three years in the early nineties, and meanwhile THE GIANTS TIED IT UP! (to be continued) - Sorry, Joe, here's a slight revision. -Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 18:04:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: noah eli gordon Subject: thanks for the radio info Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed All, thanks for all the backchannel (and list ) response to my request for info about folks working w/poetry & radio. It just furthers my sense of the community this list helps to foster. yrs, noah _________________________________________________________________ Choose an Internet access plan right for you -- try MSN! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 15:04:57 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Safdie Joseph Subject: Re: World Series- revision (news that stays news) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" A glance at the heading information above the poem below shows that I originally sent it to the poetics list the night it was composed -- Wednesday, October 23 -- it now makes its appearance eight days later, on October 31. When I re-joined the list some months ago, I was pleasantly surprised to note that its moderation had relaxed somewhat, but this, I believe, sets some sort of record for review. Of course, the nature of said poem (and others I received back channel helping to chronicle this year's World Series) makes it somewhat like a dead fish, or salmon, at this late date -- severely time-bound. But relegating all such attempts as "mere" journalism would be a mistake, I think. A blurb on the latest Philip Roth novella calls him "a master chronicler of the American 20th century." The book in question, *The Dying Animal* is a pretty good read, and I recommend it. But when was the last time that *poets* were seen as chroniclers? When did we give up that part of the job description? Which is to say that I think Andrew Rathman's and Sylvester Pollet's remarks on different global constructs/attentions to poetry were very much to the point. I'll have a bit more to say about that in the next few days (or weeks, depending). Joe Safdie ______________________________ -----Original Message----- From: Safdie Joseph [mailto:Joseph.Safdie@LWTC.CTC.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 7:35 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: World Series- revision How Can One Triumph If One's Pitcher Is A Lackey? (for Aaron Belz) angels are such pests -- mythologically, giants are the superior creatures, the ogres and trolls of our fairy-taled youth -- angels are only important parochially -- even the one that stayed Abraham's hand was more of a Jaynes-like voice of conscience than anything *vivid* (wings, of course, but after Superman those too became superfluous) -- let's talk Bo Belinsky though, Leon Wagner, Dean Chance, they were the angels when it counted, early 60s (the birth of Barry Bonds) sweet smoggy southern California the Beverly Hilton Hotel Chavez Ravine only a gleam in Howard Hughes and cheap local pols' eyes (minus Latinos) (see Ellroy, James) -- but by ten twenty-three seventy-eight (the Lackey's birthdayte) it was all Eagles and cocaine (a quick check of the ephemeris yields the news: Sun Scorpio, Mercury Scorpio, Venus, Mars, Scorpio, the Lackey living large on his Jupiter Return, until the bottom of the fifth, as I type these lines onto a computer for transmission to 932 people whose company I'll relinquish after one final post about Olomouc, where I sojourned for three years in the early nineties, and meanwhile THE GIANTS TIED IT UP! (to be continued) - Sorry, Joe, here's a slight revision. -Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 16:43:49 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lewis lacook Subject: after the net orgy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii With the current corporate take-over of the Net, one can expect that the publishing activities will change. Not in a way that magazines and books will disappear. The Net itself will be a publication tool, to announce new products, fashions, ideas, in short, a new medium to manipulate people. The interactive, democratic part will very soon become a mere marginal aspect of the whole business. It will lose its innovative and subversive part and will become deadly boring. But revolutionaries are nowadays not so easy to 'absorb'. Everyone knows the laws of the media, the fashion and the sell-out of subversive ideas by 'nomadic capitalism'. The question is: do you have enough power to go for the second round, to start all over again, each time, after the net orgy will be over, to start again with very small, unimportant alternative media outside the Grid of the Net. --Geert Lovink Anningan (in progress) http://www.lewislacook.com/Anningan/AnningansDoor.html http://www.lewislacook.com/ http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/385/lewis_lacook.html meditation, net art, poeisis: blog http://lewislacook.blogspot.com/ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 21:25:25 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: Re: World Series- revision Comments: To: Safdie Joseph MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT GAME SIX for Joe Safdie A five run lead In the seventh Seemed plenty For the second stingiest pen In the bigs, But no. Spiezio pulled off The best AB Of the postseason Climaxing In a three-run shot To right. Glaus fouled one back Sniffed his bat Right on the sweet spot Then cranked a double Off the left field wall-- Whump. Buck could only Keep talking And McCarver could only Keep repeating Every observation In different words. "Great pitching Always beats Great hitting" The inimitable Yogi Berra once said "And vice versa." In the end the Angels-- Fewest K's in '02, Highest team batting By ten points-- Proved him right And then some. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 02:06:31 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Do poets and critics ever change? Comments: To: ron.silliman@gte.net MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT from the English reviews of _Poems in English (by Samuel Beckett, which is the only way I was able to find a copy of "Whoroscope" through interlibrary loan, quotes from back cover, NY, Grove, 1961): "the obscurity results from the multiple allusions and ellipses. He is a poet." - _The Manchester Guardian ...it is impossible to 'like' these poems. Butif you can digest them they will act on the nervous system like lysergic acid, and you will never be quite the same.' - _Oxford Mail. tom bell &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&cetera: Poetry at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/publicat.html Gallery - Metaphor/Metonym for Health at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/metaphor/metapho.htm Health articles at http://psychology.healingwell.com/ Reviews at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/reviews.htm