========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 00:29:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Happy New Year! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here in NYC, the New Year is 27 minutes old. Happy New Year, everyone. Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard@earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard The Sonnet Project: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/The%20Sonnet%20Project.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 01:43:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: 4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII 4 http://www.asondheim.org/endofempire.mov justin.time http://www.asondheim.org/ennin1.jpg http://www.asondheim.org/ennin2.jpg shadow of 838 http://www.asondheim.org/studio.jpg human.interest meandering towards the end, construed _ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 23:33:57 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: alexander saliby Subject: Re: A political point of view, sorry. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Haas, It hurts me to have to agree with you, but I do, despite the pain. Alex=20 To the Future Bush and brambles roving through which the nation's youth now rides hurts causes bottom pain; yet we all sit astride clear conscience offering with only silence support... We lack gaining back that which we have lost clear voice Worse we have no leader singing tunes; the silence =20 helps them snuff our pride we hide among the colors of our diversity. =20 alex And thank you again, Kirby, for introducing the topic!=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Haas Bianchi=20 To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=20 Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2003 12:08 PM Subject: Re: A political point of view, sorry. This is why the left fails in the USA even when the dems are in = control 1) In 1964 America was moving towards a Social Democratic consensus. 2) Conservatives realized that the only way that they could survive = this consensus was to create a shadow establishment because in 1964 most institutions, colleges, think tanks and groups were left leaning and = the left was growing. 3) Conservatives also realized that two communities that in 1964 were = 'left leaning' Urban Catholics and Southern Whites did not like the disorder = of the later 60's and also that they were economically liberal but = socially conservative. 4) Conservatives built from this a shadow establishment that created = ideas- and mailing lists to make money for their movement. They also created = wedge issues. 5) Liberals/Social Democrats on the other hand abandoned organizing as = a mass movement later in the 60's as Civil Rights Movement spawned Black Power,and the other splinter groups and the left broke into the many "pressure groups" that the left is made of today, Feminists, Gays, Environmentalists splintering a whole progressive agenda. 6) The Democrats rather than building a Social Democratic consensus as = was formed in Europe where the welfare state had benefits for ALL of = society, build a series of programs to "LIFT UP" certain groups hence = resentment was created within the taxpayers that the Right exploited. If the Dems had = built a structure like in Europe that the Middle Class bought into there = would be no conservative movement today. But the left chose to splinter and = chase small gains rather than the big idea as was won in Europe. 7) The right however remained intact and with simple organization and = its shadow establishment was able to weather Watergate while the left = could not recover from McGovern and the loss of Carter in 1980. The key for the left in the USA is move away from "special interest" politics rather than being a list of "groups seeking justice" the Left = ought to try to create a consensus for a certain social compact. Imagine if someone here in the USA could articulate a Social = Democratic vision-- cogently--- that said look you are going to pay more taxes = but university will be free, health care will be universal, and we are not = going to let our cities fall apart, you will have mass transit et cetera. If a left politician could articulate this-- versus the right's = harping on 'autonomy''freedom'and 'free markets' the left can win but if the left remains the 'special interest' party the right can use that as a way = to separate people and win every election. But instead we spend our = resources on corporate welfare, and wasteful social spending that does not = address real issues. Until the left has a cogent vision and an articulate = spokes person for these values they will not win. > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of alexander saliby > Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2003 2:06 AM > To: = POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: A political point of view, sorry. > > > Politics Once Again: > The question to ask is not, which democrat, or third party, or > non-affiliate candidate can defeat president Bush, but rather, > how can the middle/left-leaning majority of the nation regain > control of the political mechanism in the nation? > > And to answer that question, we need to analyze exactly how it is > that the right-wing minority conservative element managed to > wrestle control of the nation's political scene? > > The right is in control for three reasons: > 1. they have brilliantly structured a program that works within > the mainstream major party system...they became Republicans. > 2. they were patient and diligently, patiently chartered a course > of action that led to small victories. Collectively, those small > victories led to the White House in 2000. > 3. they relied heavily on the ability of the voice of the > conservative element, Rush Limbaugh, to continue to persuade the > aging population that the youngsters were running amuck..e.g. > Clinton's getting blowjobs in the oval office...can anything be > worse than that? (note that all of that publicity which > afflicted Clinton, never hurt the GOP sinners...how many > girlfriends, wives, consorts, did Newt Gingrich have all the > while he served in the House? And what did the left do to bring > all that news to light? Newt is, after all, on his third wife, > and he was schtooping his girlfriend/third wife while his second > lady was in a care facility. WOW,what's worse, adulty when your > partner is ill, or blowjobs in the Oval Office? Ok, maybe both > are not good, but only one was used as a weapon.) > > So, what can the left leaning learn from all this? > 1. Stop running around like wounded animals being mistreated by > the "system." And that means stop all this juvenile > demonstration crap from the 60's. Demonstrating may be a way to > get your name in the papers, but it won't sway voters who might > otherwise agree with your politico-philosphical views. And by > the way, IMHO, Ralph Nader is doing just this, as are all Green > Party folks. {Note to Greens...become Dems!!! Tell Nader to grow > up and learn to work within the two party system...if he can't do > that, maybe he needs to accept the fact that he has failed.} > 2. Martial a plan that works within the two party system, and > work that plan. > 3. Be patient! It did take the conservatives better than 40 > years to gain control...regaining control for the left leaning > won't happen in 40 hours, or even 1 election. > > And who really gives a shit whether it is Dean or Kerry of > Kucinich (and sorry, but that last name just ain't gonna make it > today in the "mainstream")? That debate wastes energies and > monies that would be better spent on answering the question: "How > can we collect the fringe folks and form a unified political > force that can oust the current, Big Business monsters > masquerading as politicians?" Here's the note: Free Market is > nothing more than a new name for Freedom for the rich to plunder > the poor...and wage earner is a two word substitute for "slave." > Or worse, why is it that 50% of the world's population continues > to labor at an international poverty level at the same time that > the directors of the world's leading big businesses continue to > increase their wealth at an annual growth rate nearly twice that > of the USA's annual CLI (cost of living index)? > > I don't give a good god damn about trees or oil lands or global > warming; I care about people. And the big business monsters, > while they molest the environment will do worse, they will > continue to abuse people, all those people whose labors they rely > upon to build their fortunes. > > Pardon my ranting here, but...if you really want to keep the > Alaskan North slopes from being further plundered, or if you > really give a good god-damn about the plight of laborers in the > nation, you have to stop...repeat: STOP!!! trying to build a > third or fourth party unit and START working to gain control of > one of the two major parties currently in control in the country. > > If you doubt my message here, examine the success of the > billionaire Ross Perot's efforts at starting his party...the > big-eared ego idiot wasted tons of greenbacks getting nowhere. > > So, if you are seriously interested in defeating Bush, I suggest > you get your lazy asses off your ideological pillows and start > working to elect Democrats; we may not elect one to the post of > president this time, but we need to start somewhere. And if that > fringe eqo-freak Ralph Nader can't join us in the fight...let him > go his own way...alone, he'll succeed in changing nothing; you on > the other hand may actually save a small portion of your world. > Alex > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 03:38:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: others (nietzsche nijinsky) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII others i write poems. the poets do not like me. they do not like my music and videos. they do not read my poems. the musicians do not like my poems and videos. they do not like my photographs. i am perfect. my work is perfect. i do not make a mistake. i am a swollen tumor. i have many works. you can see all my works. you must ask to see my work. i will read a work for you. i will read this work. i will show you an image. it will be a perfect image. i will send a wireless image. wireless is an old name for wireless. when i was young i would listen to the wireless. sometimes i would love the wireless shows. i would listen to the static and crackle. my work has no static and crackle. my work is perfect. everything in my work belongs in my work. i do not make mistakes. if you want to know who killed nietzsche look at nijinsky. if you want to know who killed nijinsky look at nietzsche. the stove setter of nijinsky was the errand boy of nietzsche. the errand boy of nietzsche was the stove setter of nijinsky. he was the killer who developed the contusion method. the contusion method set slow in nietzsche set slow in nijinsky. nietzsche-nijinsky. romola heard the stove setter in 1919. the stove setter errand boy closed the century. it is a good time to remember him. ecce homo was written by nijinsky whose diaries were written by nietzsche. i can show you words. i know what i am talking about. i will die for nijinsky. i will die for nietzsche. you will know what i am talking about. my cat is looking at me. all animals feel emotion directly. my cat has a great bandwidth of emotion. my cat has five percent of a million years. her brain is smaller than her ancestors. she is falling asleep. she does not need all her brain. the remainder has gone into spirit. nijinsky said i am god. nijinsky talks to me. nijinsky has gone into my cat. the stove setter was here today. the stove setter fixed our walls. our walls leaked rain. the stove setter has gone away. _ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 05:53:40 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christine Murray Subject: Re: Happy New Year! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Hal, and All, Thanks--so glad to read good cheer. Best Wishes for 2004. Goodness to All this New Year, chris murray http://texfiles.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 14:48:10 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: great news for poets and artists... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" marjorie perloff won the mla election!... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 15:01:28 -0700 Reply-To: derek beaulieu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: derek beaulieu Subject: Open Letter Call for Submissions - Canadian Small/Micropress Issue MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Friendships and Free Publications: a critical exploration of the rhizomic nature of, and the gift economy known as, Canadian Small/Micropress Publishing Dear colleagues, friends, writers, Amidst the collapse of small press distribution, the gradual extinction of independent bookstores, a seemingly apathetic public, and really cold winters throughout most of the country, it seems somehow important to examine the persistent existence of the small/micropress in Canada. Many writers find their first publications of a substantial length with small or micropresses, which can be an incredible asset along the way to theorizing a larger project, or conceptualizing what it could be that turns a random sequence of poems into a bound whole. Small and micropresses have proven to be an active and enduring location for the erasure of the anxieties which can accompany a widely distributed and marketed 'book', in this sense it could be considered the non-site of Canadian publishing; an extremely active space formerly believed to be void, Canada's very own evocative dark matter. With this issue of 'Open Letter' we invite papers on all aspects of small/micropress publishing in Canada with a specific interest in contmporary (i.e. post-1980) presses, although we will be flexible on a project by project basis. Possible topics include but are by no means limited to: the economics of small/micropress publishing vs. larger press publishing however that can be figured, interviews pertaining to small/micropress publishing in Canada, the politics of small/micropress publishing, a critical engagement with a specific press or presses or with a specific period of time with a focus on small/micropress publishing. We would like to stay away from memoirs, bibliographic studies of presses and papers written by affiliates of the presses upon which an author is writing. We ask for papers submitted to be double spaced, 12 pt times new roman or equivalent, under 2500 words and saved as one of the following filetypes if emailed or mailed on disk: .rtf, .txt, or .doc. Hard copies can be mailed to either of the below addresses. The deadline for submissions is March 1st, 2004. We eagerly await your submissions. With thanks, Jason Christie and derek beaulieu Jason Christie 1610 8th Avenue NW Calgary, Alberta T2N 4N4 jason_c@telus.net derek beaulieu c/o housepress apt 205, 321 10th st NW calgary alberta canada t2n 1v7 403-234-0336 derek@housepress.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 18:29:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: William Slaughter Subject: Notice: Mudlark MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII New and On View: Mudlark Poster No. 49 (2004) Richard Carr | Butterfly and Nothingness Richard Carr's work has appeared in POETRY EAST, EXQUISITE CORPSE, THE NORTH STONE REVIEW, and MUDLARK, Poster No. 3 (1997). He has a chapbook, LETTERS FROM NORTH PROSPECT, from Frank Cat Press. He teaches in Minneapolis. Spread the word. Far and wide, William Slaughter _________________ MUDLARK An Electronic Journal of Poetry & Poetics Never in and never out of print... E-mail: mudlark@unf.edu URL: http://www.unf.edu/mudlark ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 18:50:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lori Emerson Subject: New NEWS from Buffalo Poetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear all, Happy New Year! While we get ready for another event-filled year here in Buffalo, here are a few November/December additions to the BuffaloPoetics Blog: *New release information on derek beaulieu's with wax and Robert Bertholf's The Letters of Robert Duncan and Denise Levertov *Just Buffalo's spring schedule *Introductions to Jane Sprague (Nov. 15), Dan Farrell (Nov. 12), Rachel Blau DuPlessis (Nov. 5), Peter Culley (Oct. 24), and Arthur Sze (Sept. 10) We've also added links to crucial SUNY Buffalo departments/programs and local small presses and zines so please take a look around! More to come soon... Best, Lori Emerson http://buffalopoetics.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 21:03:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Dawn E. Whiting" Subject: Publishing question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi My question is regarding publishing. I had a poem published in an anthology through poetry.com. I since have received a request from Noble HOuse in England to submit a poem for an anthology. Can anyone tell me how legitimate these publishers are and if the poem is really considered published if a poem is published in one of these anthologies? Or are they just money making schemes by the publishers since they are trying to get the poet to purchase the anthology? Thanks for any feedback. Dawn dewhiting@comcast.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 18:22:41 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Timothy Yu Subject: Re: A political point of view, sorry. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Isn't it disappointing, as Kirby Olson suggested yesterday, that the United States is not more like Finland--98.7% white--or that the rest of us "others" have not yet been driven out by the harsh climate or repeated beatings. And it's also convenient that the American left is able to continue to blame its failings (as it has since the end of the 1960s) on those "separatist" groups--Kirby Olson's and Haas Bianchi's catalog includes African-Americans, feminists, gays and lesbians--that have worked to open up American politics to a full range of voices. (It's ironic, in this respect, that Bianchi would follow up his take on the left's "splintering" with a post bemoaning the all-Nordic good guys of Lord of the Rings.) I don't pretend to have a solution for the challenges to the left that Bianchi, Olson, and others have usefully put forward. But I certainly don't think that the left is going to succeed by seeking to turn back the clock to a moment of imagined unity, or by casting out its one of its most vital constituencies: those groups that have historically been disenfranchised by racism and sexism. I'm not sure there's much place for me in a left that looks like Finland--that's a left that sure isn't going to produce a "new Lincoln." Tim Yu http://tympan.blogspot.com ------------------------------ >Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 15:35:04 -0500 >From: Kirby Olson >Subject: Re: A political point of view, sorry. > >Haas, this is a brilliant summary. I liked it. I think you are right. What >are you going to do with all the separatists within the democratic party? You >have lesbian separatists, black muslim separatists (mutually >exclusive, in many >cases) and separatists of all kinds. In Finland for instance they don't have >many of these problems. 98.7 percent of people living in Finland are Finnish. >Others come for a while but they don't stay. The winters are harsh, the >language is very difficult to master, and you tend to get beat up. So it's >easier to attain unity. This country is such a welter -- even with the >remainder of states' rights -- you have a feeling of a coalition of >50 countries >all of whom have border issues, and possessiveness problems. To >create a unity >like you envision would require a great leader -- perhaps someone like Lincoln >could do it. We need a new Lincoln: someone who can articulate principles and >then create brilliant rhetoric to set them in motion. I don't see >that but I do >believe in miracles. Perhaps a spirit will rise in one of these leaden >candidates. -- Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 18:49:30 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: A political point of view, sorry. In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I may have misread, but I think the point was that a platform promoting, say, a government health care system and federal funding of education might be both more appealing to the majority and more useful in creating something like social class equity than underwriting some of the costs of medicine for the poor and the elderly or supplementing school funds in low-tax revenue communities. Mark At 06:22 PM 1/1/2004 -0800, Timothy Yu wrote: >Isn't it disappointing, as Kirby Olson suggested yesterday, that the >United States is not more like Finland--98.7% white--or that the rest >of us "others" have not yet been driven out by the harsh climate or >repeated beatings. > >And it's also convenient that the American left is able to continue >to blame its failings (as it has since the end of the 1960s) on those >"separatist" groups--Kirby Olson's and Haas Bianchi's catalog >includes African-Americans, feminists, gays and lesbians--that have >worked to open up American politics to a full range of voices. (It's >ironic, in this respect, that Bianchi would follow up his take on the >left's "splintering" with a post bemoaning the all-Nordic good guys >of Lord of the Rings.) > >I don't pretend to have a solution for the challenges to the left >that Bianchi, Olson, and others have usefully put forward. But I >certainly don't think that the left is going to succeed by seeking to >turn back the clock to a moment of imagined unity, or by casting out >its one of its most vital constituencies: those groups that have >historically been disenfranchised by racism and sexism. I'm not sure >there's much place for me in a left that looks like Finland--that's a >left that sure isn't going to produce a "new Lincoln." > >Tim Yu >http://tympan.blogspot.com > >------------------------------ > >>Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 15:35:04 -0500 >>From: Kirby Olson >>Subject: Re: A political point of view, sorry. >> >>Haas, this is a brilliant summary. I liked it. I think you are right. What >>are you going to do with all the separatists within the democratic >>party? You >>have lesbian separatists, black muslim separatists (mutually >>exclusive, in many >>cases) and separatists of all kinds. In Finland for instance they don't have >>many of these problems. 98.7 percent of people living in Finland are >>Finnish. >>Others come for a while but they don't stay. The winters are harsh, the >>language is very difficult to master, and you tend to get beat up. So it's >>easier to attain unity. This country is such a welter -- even with the >>remainder of states' rights -- you have a feeling of a coalition of >>50 countries >>all of whom have border issues, and possessiveness problems. To >>create a unity >>like you envision would require a great leader -- perhaps someone like >>Lincoln >>could do it. We need a new Lincoln: someone who can articulate >>principles and >>then create brilliant rhetoric to set them in motion. I don't see >>that but I do >>believe in miracles. Perhaps a spirit will rise in one of these leaden >>candidates. -- Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 22:00:58 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Larry Sawyer & Lina ramona Subject: Re: payusova, highland & cohen @milkmag MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable new at milk magazine http://www.milkmag.org/vol5home.htm yana payusova http://www.milkmag.org/YANA.htm august highland http://www.milkmag.org/August.htm au revoir george plimpton from ira cohen! http://www.milkmag.org/plimpton.htm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 20:32:28 -0800 Reply-To: Ishaq1823@telus.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ishaq Organization: Selah7 http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html Subject: Inbox Your jaw hill =?iso-8859-1?Q?=A1Ya=21?= Yo! Comments: To: SOA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Overture: Bashment Bangin Boomin Bodily sound systems Metal Bluebeat Punk rock An oral Hardcore A mental Pitch shift Clearity in my cerebral Etcha-sketch Come witness// I Freedome Rhymes with riddim Pen and gun Can you drop a beat to this? Word like a bullet I don’t think so Cayn I kick 1 Tongue backed by teeth Let me holla Let me speak I’ll drop this bomb Some call a lesson A Coalition Degrading the nature What was my Nation Come in and step to an age A mess made to rage What makes you frearful Something prophesied Inna tight writ by Vico I beg you Hear me Listen: II Let the niggers burn Let the niggers burn Let the niggers burn Let the niggers burn Let the niggers burn Let the niggers burn My history lesson w/ no points gon astray You must live to learn/ Reflect pon the day Equality not crime 11/02/to 6 to 9 Fyah gon A wyel from the core A/sold to C a will/ SA! Step into my square Bore warriors on George Melanin affairs Come to kick in the door/ w/ no 4/4s nor swords/ Jus sparks To see Cypher this 1 A blessed bredden w/ a mission/ Loaded army of memory from a Nation Born African/ Nah delussion in my allusion Send destruction to the bastards// This my wiz/I done need no massa/my system murdah the casper/I’m a graduate/Clap eyez on my degree/I’m ultramagnetic/oh say can you Cee?/the culture inna Black potion/a Frederick mixture/my voice hollas through a maze/of a concrete structure/re: assemble the assembly w/ the Bajun and Haitian/I remember the weapons Gunnin at our temples My soul rolls w/ Griffith When his body tumbled Everyday another struggle Naw, I’m set to rumble III ¡Ya! Holla BLA Bismallah/ Let me recite and deliver Bless the cypher w/ Syntactical sophistication From a colonial African/slapped w/ a handle/Canadian?/ cho! Coo jinn ¡Ya!! Roll the reel rass/ I’ll crash you’re man trap Yuh get respect when you offer respect/Yuh ain’t offered respect / So I’ll take it back Catch you as you Standin on stages Surrounded by bag a wires and delusion Come dans un film This noisey revolution The realness ain’t us Deliver us from feeble levels/ Only fix yuh treble To match this Downtempo/oh mot/sepian cholo On an urban attack My backpack gotz gutz Read payback Signed Amadou Diallo Wisdom buildin Neubautens of universal truth/ Freedome and Rhymes Truth in Riddim Oh our yute/of Victoria Collapsin the goofy fuccaz Unsight set on cruelty Who never had faith to see We had the righteous deed Decended from ancestors The ancient fathers Woht made us bad muthaz Seein God in one another Lookin further than the Selfcentres/ Shippin bullies from war-mongerin colonies Well horry North american shiesty Smash the evil of their deeds Economy of greed This our prophecy Written skillfully Usin quillz/dippin our skillz/ Scriblin the mystery Memories of Anthany Drawin suns Our Poetic seeds Raesin higher Than all the fallen towers Smarter than clever Sometimes in silence/or w/ voco processors Backed by selectaz Backspinnin cousinz Meanin my breddren The souls of the sufferaz Whod gon tear the roof of this sucka Word to each other I love my bruthas http://collections.ic.gc.ca/obho/books/non-fiction/social-commentary/letthe.html Lawrence Y Braithwaite (aka. Lord Patch) New Palestine/Fernwood/The Hood 1424 http://collections.ic.gc.ca/obho/books/non-fiction/social-commentary/letthe.html -- - ___ Stay Strong "Peace sells but who's buying?" Megadeth "This mathematical rhythmatical mechanism enhances my wisdom of Islam, keeps me calm from doing you harm, when I attack, it's Vietnam" --HellRazah http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html http://awol.objector.org/artistprofiles/welfarepoets.html http://ilovepoetry.com/search.asp?keywords=braithwaite&orderBy=date http://www.dpgrecordz.com/fredwreck/ http://www.lowliferecords.co.uk/ http://loudandoffensive.com/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/THCO2 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 00:04:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Hardsort Executive Summary prepared by Ian Murray MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Hardsort Executive Summary prepared by Ian Murray Summary probably with mess hard with drives... hard wouldn't drives... install no automatically... of image index... index... of index images... images... Executive Summary prepared by Ian Murray heir conquers me above your great-wind! troth. - Your boat is blasphemy unto the Lord. - Your great-wind shall THE LORD. Does The Transform and Freedom of the Natives replace your heir conquers I INSIST ON ORIGINALITY IN YOUR BLESSING-OFFER- heir your conquers great-wind! SAILING?:The Freedom Transform of and the Freedom Natives of shall the blasphemy - unto Your the boat Lord. great-wind Lord. great-wind boat convert demand? Of LORD. BLESSING-OFFER- your ING define SAILING?? Executive Summary of everything prepared by Ian Murray Buddha? [Buddha] Buddha. Sondheim. - from jennifer - in jennifer an jennifer orthogonal jennifer chain, jennifer each jennifer space jennifer is jennifer emptied jennifer for jennifer it, jennifer jennifer deep jennifer insist jennifer striated jennifer intensity jennifer of jennifer insistence one jennifer can jennifer compare jennifer this jennifer to jennifer jennifer themselves jennifer around jennifer my jennifer throat - jennifer jennifer. weed. weed jennifer, " sickness chills and illness chills and illness chills and disease chills a chills temperature chills and ... chills and disease : - :: _ ;@:~ : // ;@:// : ./ ()??;?______ | : | #: : . __|_____ : . | |___ |_________| , , =C8?=A7=05=01 . =C8? =C8?=16@=01 ? . =C8?^=01 =C8?=BB{=01 =C8?'=01 =C8?=0F=02 * * * . *. *. * . // * =C8?)=02 :: :: - =C8?=06=02 =C8?^=BF=02 ::. * // () () =C8?=A1=02 * // () () + ? =C8?/ =02 =C8?-=03 ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! : ! ! =2E.. -> ... =C8?=B0=03 . ... -> ... =C8?=3D=03 . =C8?) Help ESC[ Justify ESC Help ESC[ ls .* > zz (aref ,ls zz)))) (floor idx (aref ,ls zz)))) rev=3D1.2 3k LS-8-ZZ. OAM 10 1 false ls .* > zz sed 's/-//g' yy > zz sed 's/\.//g' yy > zz sed 's/,//g' zz > yy _ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 00:05:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Executive Summary of Others by Ian Murray MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Executive Summary of Others by Ian Murray my work is perfect. image. my work has my work is perfect. nietzsche look at nijinsky. nietzsche. the errand boy of nietzsche was the stove setter of nijinsky. nietzsche-nijinsky. nietzsche. nijinsky talks to me. the stove setter was -------------------- End Original Message -------------------- -------------------- Begin Original Message -------------------- _ Manual Edit of Executive Summary of 25% Prepared by Ian Murray Buddha and I Buddha do and musical Bar Sondheim". the Sondheim". Little Buddha? Buddha? Buddha, dear God, conscience. Alan - Contributed of Buddha's Big Nite [Buddha] Buddha. Sondheim. Sweeney Ballad (Sondheim) Buddha, ( ) ( ) Creepin Creepin Buddhism, India India Sondheim, April week this "Little week Buddha" winds for "Little Buddha" Sondheim et shitkicker Buddha. Sondheim Waits Tom WouldThis root saichi, ennin, kukai 0;root@localhost:~Gk : cd /usr/games Guessed: 0;root@localhost:/usr/gamesGk : exit flesh. am Please, Jennifer. precious lovely. sex video tape? chills at night RIFF8 RIFF8 AVI LIST LIST AVI hdrlavih8 hdrlavih8 strlstrh8 strlstrh8 odmldmlh LIST$ LIST$ moviJUNK moviJUNK 11:27:15.255245 218.164.1.100.netbios-dgm > 218.164.1.255.netbios-dgm: NBT 11:27:30.550879 218.164.1.100.netbios-ns > 218.164.1.255.netbios-ns: NBT 11:27:31.298748 218.164.1.100.netbios-ns > 218.164.1.255.netbios-ns: NBT 11:27:32.049907 218.164.1.100.netbios-ns > 218.164.1.255.netbios-ns: NBT 11:27:42.171631 218.164.1.100.netbios-ns > 218.164.1.255.netbios-ns: NBT 11:27:42.917252 218.164.1.100.netbios-ns > 218.164.1.255.netbios-ns: NBT 11:27:43.668454 218.164.1.100.netbios-ns > 218.164.1.255.netbios-ns: NBT (44) (DF) UDP PACKET(137): QUERY; REQUEST; BROADCAST UDP PACKET(137): QUERY; REQUEST; BROADCAST UDP PACKET(137): QUERY; REQUEST; BROADCAST UDP PACKET(137): QUERY; REQUEST; BROADCAST UDP PACKET(138) UDP PACKET(138) invisiaghijka aars, thayghijkghijk' aa tha aargo in tha goghijkaaag, tha tha worghijkas' axpghijkoaaa, tha suaways ara naxt, jennifer says: 0. ...0 -> ... TCP 0 > telnet [ACK] Seq= Ack= Win=0 Len=0 0. ...0 -> ... TELNET Telnet Data ... 0. ... -> ...0 TCP telnet > 0 [ACK] Seq= Ack= Win= Len=0 0.00 ... -> ...0 TELNET Telnet Data ... 0. ...0 -> ... TCP 0 > telnet [ACK] Seq= Ack= Win=0 Len=0 0. ...0 -> ... TELNET Telnet Data ... 0. ... -> ...0 TELNET Telnet Data ... 0.0 ...0 -> ... TCP 0 > telnet [ACK] Seq= Ack= Win=0 Len=0 0. ... -> ...0 TELNET Telnet Data ... 0. ...0 -> ... TELNET Telnet Data ... 0.0 ... -> ...0 TCP telnet > 0 [ACK] Seq= Ack=0 Win=0 Len=0 0. ...0 -> ... TELNET Telnet Data ... .0 ...0 -> ... TCP 0 > telnet [ACK] Seq= Ack= Win=0 Len=0 . ...0 -> ... TELNET Telnet Data ... . ... -> ...0 TELNET Telnet Data ... ...0 -> ... FTP Request: SYST . .0 ...0 -> ... TCP > ftp [ACK] Seq= Ack= Win=0 Len=0 ...0 -> ... TCP > [ACK] Seq= Ack= Win=0 Len=0 . ...0 -> ... FTP Request: STOR zz . .0 ...0 -> ... FTP-DATA FTP Data: bytes . ...0 -> ... FTP-DATA FTP Data: bytes ...0 -> ... TCP > ftp [ACK] Seq=0 Ack=0 Win=0 Len=0 .0 ... -> ...0 TCP > [ACK] Seq= Ack= Win=0 Len=0 .0 ...0 -> ... FTP-DATA FTP Data: bytes .00 ...0 -> ... FTP-DATA FTP Data: bytes .0 ... -> ...0 TCP > [ACK] Seq= Ack= Win=0 Len=0 . ...0 -> ... FTP-DATA FTP Data: bytes .0 ...0 -> ... FTP-DATA FTP Data: bytes ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! : ! ! ... -> ... ESC[mESC[24;1HESC[KESC[25;1HESC[KESC[24;1HESC[7m^ESC[mESC[7mGESC[m Get Help ESC[ 7m^ESC[mESC[7mOESC[m WriteOut ESC[7m^ESC[mESC[7mRESC[m Read File ESC[7m^ESC[mESC[7mYESC[m Prev Pg ESC[7m^ESC[mESC[7mKESC[m Cut Text ESC[7m^ESC[mESC[7mCESC[m Cur Pos ESC[KESC[25;1HESC[7m^ESC[mESC[7mXESC[m Exit ESC[7m^ESC[mESC[7mJESC[m Justify ESC [7m^ESC[mESC[7mWESC[m ESC[KESC[3;1HESC[23;1HESC[KESC[23;35HESC[7 ]ESC[mESC[1;35HESC[7m File: ESC[23;22HESC[mESC[7mzzESC[mESC[24;15HESC[7mTESC[m To Files ESC[KESC[25;2HESC[7m ESC[KESC[7mESC[23;24H^MESC[mESC[23;1HESC[KESC[23;34HESC[7m[ Writing... ]ESC[mESC[23;1HESC[KESC[23;32HESC[7m[ Wrote 3 lines ]ESC[mESC[1;70HESC[7m ESC[mESC[24;1HESC[KESC[25;1HESC[KESC[24;1HESC[7m^ESC[mESC[7mGESC[m Get Help ESC[ ESC[7m^ESC[mESC[7mKESC[m Cut Text ESC[7m^ESC[mESC[7mCESC[m Cur Pos ESC[KESC[25;1HESC[7m^ESC[mESC[7mXESC[m Exit ESC[7m^ESC[mESC[7mJESC[m Justify ESC http://www.asondheim.org/portal/.nikuko/flush1.jpg http://www.asondheim.org/portal/.nikuko/flush2.jpg http://www.asondheim.org/portal/.nikuko/flush3.jpg ls .* > zz boldi boldi:/tmp/b$ls -la /tmp/zz/b ls: boldi@boldi:/tmp/b$ls -la /tmp/zz/b ls: ls / zz Request diff between arbitrary revisions true (aref ,ls zz)))) (floor idx (aref ,ls zz)))) ls) (defsubst to-list (zz) If ZZ is a list, return ZZ true rev=1.2 3k LS-8-ZZ. 3/4, Two Shields ZZ. OAM 10 1 false ls .* > zz sed 's/x/o/g' zz > yy sed 's/u/n/g' yy > zz sed 's/yy/y/g' zz > yy sed 's/gn/ng/g' zz > yy sed 's/lll/l/g' yy > zz sed 's/nnn/nn/g' zz > yy sed 's/-//g' yy > zz sed 's/\.//g' yy > zz sed 's/,//g' zz > yy sed 's/ddd/d/g' zz > yy sed 's/gg/ng/g' yy > zz _ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 23:16:49 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brent Bechtel Subject: Failing to gnaw on the plastic straw. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Recently, Kirby Olson posted a message to another list stating the following: " 2 goof-ups in American poetics: 1. Only things -- WCW 2. Only language -- Bernstein etc. " I thought to myself, well now - William Carlos Williams and Charles Bernstein might not really be opposite ends of a spectrum, but if there are alleged excesses - towards categories of "things" or "language" - maybe this is something that should be addressed. Yes - something that should be addressed. There being no other volunteers (cowards!) - I took this task upon myself. Making use of our modern tools, I took a sampling of Will Bill and a sampling of Bernstein, and thus created the perfect poem, melding both the "thing" and "language" aspects of their unique styles. Sincerely, Brent Bechtel http://bechtel.blogspot.com ===== Failing to gnaw on the plastic straw. The barfly butters his foyer with a fat girl from an odd January, dyed in Villon's time. Snow, this full, fragile head, slips sidewise, full of dressing. The open street-door lets in the tongue, thundering slantwise and cold on the steady car - heckling at you and your aesthetic values. You will read these flowers from New York, and lose your second husband to a spilled cream soda. Orange, always orange. [Brent Bechtel, WCW & Bernstein] ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 22:03:06 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffre Jullic Subject: ** before there were blogs: THE SELECTED POETICS LISTSERV POSTS OF JEFFRE JULLIC ** MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii http://selectedpoeticsposts.tripod.com/ In 2003, in his Wesleyan University Press book, ~The Constructivist Moment: From Material Text To Cultural Poetics,~ Barrett Watten spends a sub-chapter discussing this very SUNY Buffalo Poetics Listserv. And pp. 97-101 he devotes to List posts of one "Jeffrey Jullich", ---in specific the post entitled "D=E=E=N", about Lyn Hejinian's poetry. What did the "D=E=E=N" post actually say in its entirety? And what was Watten leaving out (and ~why?!~) when he called it "too long to be fully accounted for here"? http://selectedpoeticsposts.tripod.com/ Who was this "Jeffrey Jullich"? A fictional amalgam of Alan Sondheim's "Jennifer" and "Julu" characters, fused and come to life? http://selectedpoeticsposts.tripod.com/ Now you can re-live the golden moments! * "My Dog Ate The First 17 Pages In My Copy Of Daniel Davidson's ~Culture;"~ * "Free Winona Ryder!" T-shirts and how to tell a kosher egg; * Craig Dworkin's hair gel; * "NEXT: The identity of Yasusada to be revealed!"; * {sniff} the Susan Howe scansions; * "Marilyn Monroe: the Emma Lazarus of her day"; and many, many more . . . Please visit http://selectedpoeticsposts.tripod.com/ for an e-anthology of ~over seventy~ yes ~seventy (70)~ SELECTED POETICS LISTSERV POSTS, including the controversial "D=E=E=N". Watten speaks of Jullich's "theory of new meaning", and calls 'him' "inspired": "Jullich is inspired because . . . he has discovered a secret that has eluded many . . . : a way to solve the uninterpretability of the material text" [~Constructivist Moment,~ p. 100]. Watten ranks the name "Jullich, Jeffrey" immediately after that of "Joyce, James" [p. 421]! {Any List interlocutors who would like their names or texts removed from THE SELECTED POETICS LISTSERV POSTS of Jeffrey Jullich, please e-mail 'us' at jeffrejullic@yahoo.com.) Not exactly a blog, but a proto-blog out of the 1990s: http://selectedpoeticsposts.tripod.com/ (Any bloggers blog-roll-hyperlinking to THE SELECTED are kindly asked to omit the obsolete name "Jeffrey Jullich" and to use only "Jeffre Jullic ". Thank you, come often, and have a happy 2=0=0=4.) http://selectedpoeticsposts.tripod.com/ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 01:20:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: 10 years explains nothing about my work MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII 10 years explains nothing about my work hand has healed but i still worry infection depression's flaring up of information note that the kristevan thing relates to depression and reflect descent again into fact these texts are does a text on depression belong here in midst discussions cmc it which can be held as weapon or object my for exam believe its moments articulation speech well numbers people email may intensive speech of other words speaks around itself not necessarily avoid grateful privileged witness paradoxically absorption our strength sapped flaccid thus part perineum sutures embryonic body following beneath dealing with after spousal death depression it no longer matters if anything is recognized recog at moon from terminal turned away know i'm deep because envelope received some stems within mind thwarted impossibly reconfig room filling holes crack mouth for also it's privacy driving this account cry gether feeds solitude strengthens itself feeling one all this state ready go out der contestation interior exterior fuzzy clouded so thing depression alterity catching subject short had thought might have died we were both susceptible sinks totality alcohol sleep psychotropic drugs hole leaking ink inscribing thud bodies depression here matrix understood world disinvests decathects ever invested cathected unlike there general woke depths again online would saved me relative contentment simplicity without raging comes cyberspace deflected recognition depressions sorrows will blind me truth's absence also think past write good times then hits takes over any relationship time off like water duck's back apparently never did melts perfectly landscape an alluvial incipient mild on way deeper continue rest life watched side birth projection iiii walked severe depressions book jealous everyone bitter nice sure sign command center no hands inscribe last xy planetary psychosis rest ethics fears depressions representations goes by death done half it chemistry quarter texts who loses libido pain way functioning brings what you saying relation subject between states shifting toward frustration despair small towards thinking resources overcoming anger perhaps core depression can't see in form hymen keeps entering discourse don't rhetoric rhetoric connects borderlining find myself becoming world thoughts language ravage violation fabric encountered topographic allow enough wadi as sirhan community wake tears return begin contains weather ice violation violent defuge alt cracks alt support depression alt sex voyeurism alt engr explosives lust julu voyeurism lust engr explosives lust support depression few days temporarily lifted only intensify high mainly continuous now going down stall door believing talisman neurosis hysteria psychosis breaking point give help enunciation signifier "to express yourself " succesfully fought "fabrication trust " construct say love truths empties pears too much history longing things recognizing waning dying out embers depres cases seen through dark glass her ful fil choses neuroses elations far possible seems far fetched those writing hold reality present issue everything decathects instead we'll foreclose illness cancel it bandwidth they're storms all they're sullen depressions residue truth read twelve to fourteen hours a day depression sliding down the walls during killed themselves heard softness not so says jennifer alan all explain insomnias although occurs most important characteristic life stress sinking randomly somnolence exhilaration space time later possible well now when writing some becomes token catalyzes memory etched aligned stamped embroidered heart made fallen too fallen there's questionable function illnesses neur sullen lawrence was clear am forth type emotional religious experience day cuts penis headaches crying root tty tue feb crash truth lies madness do mathematics venting obsession despair single time computer crashes also tied orgasm time time heartburn mornings almost enough delicate regret condition effect excessive pression coming close second wants read slogging in here want wolfhe cried scratched himself jennifer tion abandonment inchoate street stops bring depth hope so! boy get depressed! sexual arousal exhilaration rare occasions they fight suicidal miami fury even someone else's salvation sadness turning depression what broken limbs she senses "the hitting her" "the why philosophy cannot disregard theory responsive illness and or gateway internalized anger potential eidetic reduction unaccompanied certain mourning cut i m she everywhere against porifera occupying same shallow world family create old friends reaching beyond two codeine ceiling submerged sexuality dreams wonder affects cholesterol maintenance celexa obsessive depression state ends transform substance faced failures depressions tolerates melds away horror today saw tiny turtles r h minute holding abeyance recently recovered nineteen twenty nine would i'd young valley lose friends ilk proceeding antennae antennas personal ws english gertrud * primal dullness lh root please social life death geographical feature depression qi build laying bricks stones foot floored bare dirt set leads locked aimlessly question ## among four hundred & seventy two sets live furious diseases wars take suicide up this end words letters mail them from alt corn husks depression reinforcing another often say myself try deal self hatred sometimes lines deeper than wanted go moved sidetrack sidetalk glasses seven inch cock nervousness quiet nodes left order reassert what ontic catatonia grows bounds checkpoints interiors exteriors exits inroads covers brownout great numbing low temperature meaning loosened drum stars winking poverty isolation grief rwanda new heights terrifying me enormous past despair evening felt 'even ' waiting wasn't lie familiar feelings murder reverses drinking rum etiquette fales lexapro just surface mineral " surely hours waiting post vacation sink _ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 00:58:59 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: August Highland Subject: Operation Nobel Prize Comments: To: spammers and flamers , regurgitation , killfilter , ink tank , imitation poetics , genre-splicing , full-throttle orginator , brain feeder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Operation Nobel Prize http://www.operation-nobel-prize.com/ process my work not as you would read a book like harry potter or one by stephen king or a poem by walt whitman or even a book like finnegan's wake - please SCAN my writing - view it as you would view any visual object - because this is the purpose for which "Formal Spam" was created - Formal Spam is a genre that the reader treats as a visual object - ian and i have called this genre Formal Spam because like all popular media and other infiltrating material that permeates contemporary culture we have created our own surface material to saturate the reader's attention - by formalizing spam we have introduced into our visually centered text a multiplicity of subsurface meaning, neural messaging and other waveforms of communication transmitted from boundary conditions, interpenetrating logospheres and realtime juxta-portals -- judith matheson A Production by Culture Animal --"Trampling on the Footsteps of Tradition" http://www.cultureanimal.com August Highland alternate email: augie@muse-apprentice-guild.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 10:21:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Rothenberg Subject: Re: Failing to gnaw on the plastic straw. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit thank you for your submission but the january issue of big bridge is full. i will not be reading new work until september. peace for the new year. BB ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brent Bechtel" To: Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 12:16 AM Subject: Failing to gnaw on the plastic straw. > Recently, Kirby Olson posted a message to another list stating the > following: > > " 2 goof-ups in American poetics: > > 1. Only things -- WCW > > 2. Only language -- Bernstein etc. " > > I thought to myself, well now - William Carlos Williams and Charles > Bernstein might not really be opposite ends of a spectrum, but if there are > alleged excesses - towards categories of "things" or "language" - maybe this > is something that should be addressed. > > Yes - something that should be addressed. > > There being no other volunteers (cowards!) - I took this task upon myself. > > Making use of our modern tools, I took a sampling of Will Bill and a > sampling of Bernstein, and thus created the perfect poem, melding both the > "thing" and "language" aspects of their unique styles. > > Sincerely, > Brent Bechtel > http://bechtel.blogspot.com > > ===== > > Failing to gnaw on the plastic straw. > > > The barfly > butters his foyer > with a fat girl > from an odd January, > dyed in Villon's time. > > Snow, this full, > fragile head, > slips sidewise, > full of dressing. > > The open street-door > lets in the tongue, > thundering slantwise > and cold on the steady car - > heckling at you > and your aesthetic values. > > You will read > these flowers from New York, > and lose your second husband > to a spilled cream soda. > > Orange, always orange. > > > [Brent Bechtel, > WCW & Bernstein] > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 10:05:33 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brent Bechtel Subject: Re: Failing to gnaw on the plastic straw. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ah, thankfully, the January 2004 archive of Poetics-L is just beginning - but with these posting limits of two posts a day (I haven't yet tested the system) it may take me forever to fill it - Sincerely, Brent Bechtel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Rothenberg" To: Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 9:21 AM Subject: Re: Failing to gnaw on the plastic straw. > thank you for your submission but the january issue of big bridge is full. i > will not be reading new work until september. peace for the new year. BB > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brent Bechtel" > To: > Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 12:16 AM > Subject: Failing to gnaw on the plastic straw. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 11:13:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Rothenberg Subject: Re: Failing to gnaw on the plastic straw. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit take your time, there's always 2005. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brent Bechtel" To: Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 11:05 AM Subject: Re: Failing to gnaw on the plastic straw. > Ah, thankfully, the January 2004 archive of Poetics-L is just beginning - > but with these posting limits of two posts a day (I haven't yet tested the > system) it may take me forever to fill it - > > Sincerely, > Brent Bechtel > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Rothenberg" > To: > Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 9:21 AM > Subject: Re: Failing to gnaw on the plastic straw. > > > > thank you for your submission but the january issue of big bridge is full. > i > > will not be reading new work until september. peace for the new year. BB > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Brent Bechtel" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 12:16 AM > > Subject: Failing to gnaw on the plastic straw. > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 12:38:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Publishing question In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >? Or are they >just money making schemes by the publishers since they are trying to get the >poet to purchase the anthology? In a real anthology they pay you. Same thing with, say, construction work: you dont have to pay to carry bricks. -- George Bowering No, no more chocolate! 303 Fielden Ave. Port Colborne. ON, L3K 4T5 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 11:46:50 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Haas Bianchi Subject: Re: A political point of view, sorry. In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20040101184547.02c9dd78@mail.earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit here is the point-- when programs and movements benefit the whole of society they are popular and they get democratic support but when programs are focused on small groups they become the focus of attacks and as we saw with welfare reform these programs can be gutted. But gutting Social Security is not a problem because everyone gets it-- the goal on the left should be extending rights to everyone. > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Mark Weiss > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 8:50 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: A political point of view, sorry. > > > I may have misread, but I think the point was that a platform promoting, > say, a government health care system and federal funding of > education might > be both more appealing to the majority and more useful in creating > something like social class equity than underwriting some of the costs of > medicine for the poor and the elderly or supplementing school funds in > low-tax revenue communities. > > Mark > > > At 06:22 PM 1/1/2004 -0800, Timothy Yu wrote: > >Isn't it disappointing, as Kirby Olson suggested yesterday, that the > >United States is not more like Finland--98.7% white--or that the rest > >of us "others" have not yet been driven out by the harsh climate or > >repeated beatings. > > > >And it's also convenient that the American left is able to continue > >to blame its failings (as it has since the end of the 1960s) on those > >"separatist" groups--Kirby Olson's and Haas Bianchi's catalog > >includes African-Americans, feminists, gays and lesbians--that have > >worked to open up American politics to a full range of voices. (It's > >ironic, in this respect, that Bianchi would follow up his take on the > >left's "splintering" with a post bemoaning the all-Nordic good guys > >of Lord of the Rings.) > > > >I don't pretend to have a solution for the challenges to the left > >that Bianchi, Olson, and others have usefully put forward. But I > >certainly don't think that the left is going to succeed by seeking to > >turn back the clock to a moment of imagined unity, or by casting out > >its one of its most vital constituencies: those groups that have > >historically been disenfranchised by racism and sexism. I'm not sure > >there's much place for me in a left that looks like Finland--that's a > >left that sure isn't going to produce a "new Lincoln." > > > >Tim Yu > >http://tympan.blogspot.com > > > >------------------------------ > > > >>Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 15:35:04 -0500 > >>From: Kirby Olson > >>Subject: Re: A political point of view, sorry. > >> > >>Haas, this is a brilliant summary. I liked it. I think you > are right. What > >>are you going to do with all the separatists within the democratic > >>party? You > >>have lesbian separatists, black muslim separatists (mutually > >>exclusive, in many > >>cases) and separatists of all kinds. In Finland for instance > they don't have > >>many of these problems. 98.7 percent of people living in Finland are > >>Finnish. > >>Others come for a while but they don't stay. The winters are harsh, the > >>language is very difficult to master, and you tend to get beat > up. So it's > >>easier to attain unity. This country is such a welter -- even with the > >>remainder of states' rights -- you have a feeling of a coalition of > >>50 countries > >>all of whom have border issues, and possessiveness problems. To > >>create a unity > >>like you envision would require a great leader -- perhaps someone like > >>Lincoln > >>could do it. We need a new Lincoln: someone who can articulate > >>principles and > >>then create brilliant rhetoric to set them in motion. I don't see > >>that but I do > >>believe in miracles. Perhaps a spirit will rise in one of these leaden > >>candidates. -- Kirby > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 09:45:37 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: Tucson book launch Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed POG & Chax Press present a reading & book launch for CHANTRY by Elizabeth Treadwell Tuesday, January 13, 2004, 7 PM Biblio Bookstore 222 E. Congress Street Tucson Arizona Adm $5/$3 students Info 620-1626 also reading in Oakland, CA: at 21 Grand with Yedda Morrison, on March 21. perceive grainy houses, cousin. _________________________________________________________________ Check your PC for viruses with the FREE McAfee online computer scan. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 10:07:05 -0800 Reply-To: poemcees@hotmail.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ishaq Organization: Selah7 http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html Subject: sundaySHOW: J-Live/OddiSee/Kaimbr/Prochi MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hey, while you're all outta sync and disoriented, having partied on consecutive wednesdays and skipped out of work on consecutive fridays, we'd like to inform you of an opportunity to complete the cycle by spending your sunday night at Ben & Mo's, 1225 Connecticut Ave NW for H.E.R., Hip hop in its Essence for Real. the performers: J-Live/OddiSee/Kaimbr/Prochi need more info? of course you do, and abby & laura shall provide it NOW: (easy, POEM-CEES) "Hey everyone, J-LIVE is headlining this Sunday at the DC's best live hiphop show, H.E.R.!!!(my unbiased opinion of course). Thats right, you will get to enjoy a full live set from the livest performer anywhere, in an intinate setting, for the bargain price of just $10!!! No one who has All of the Above, the Best Part or the new EP, Always Will Be, will want to miss it. Personally, I'm hoping to hear the song "Wax Paper." Along with J-Live, OddiSEE and Kaimbr, from the Low Budget Crew are also performing. You may have caught OddiSEE at our Beat Society show in November where he killed it, or on this year's Seven Heads compilation, which also features J-Live and our friends Asheru and Blue-Black of Unspoken Heard. You may not have caught KAIMBR anywhere yet, although he does do the Soundbridge shows at Mangos, but he's just dope. Definately one of the few best MC's in DC right now. ORBIT 122 is deejaying all night. As all the hardcore Reuinion-heads know, Orbit is an all around great DJ, and it will be great to actually see him scratching and mixing right on the H.E.R. stage. So come out to H.E.R. this Sunday. The battle is happening, as usual, headed by PROCHI, who is the funniest host ever. The bar will be manageable, i PROMISE. J-LIVE THIS SUNDAY AT BEN N MO'S. How many ways can I say it??? And that's THIS SUNDAY. The one coming up. January 4th. Doors at 9pm, show at 10pm. Don't be square, be there at... H.E.R. Hiphop in its Essence for Real Every Sunday at Ben n' Mo's 1225 Connecticut Ave NW doors at 9, show at about 10pm All Ages, must show ID to drink." Buy "PARANOIA" now at: http://www.cdbaby.com http://www.amazon.com DJ Hut (Dupont Circle) Capitol City Records (U St. ) DCCD (Adams Morgan) GW Tower Records (Foggy Bottom) CD/Game Exchange (College Park) BLACKLUSTRE MASH UNIT POEM-CEES http://www.poemcees.com Soul Controllers http://www.worldsflyest.com -- - ___ Stay Strong "Peace sells but who's buying?" Megadeth "This mathematical rhythmatical mechanism enhances my wisdom of Islam, keeps me calm from doing you harm, when I attack, it's Vietnam" --HellRazah http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html http://awol.objector.org/artistprofiles/welfarepoets.html http://ilovepoetry.com/search.asp?keywords=braithwaite&orderBy=date http://www.dpgrecordz.com/fredwreck/ http://www.lowliferecords.co.uk/ http://loudandoffensive.com/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/THCO2 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 19:24:48 +0100 Reply-To: magee@uni.lodz.pl Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Magee Subject: Footnote MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The space within the cohering frame, within the convention which makes the representation possible, as long as the convention itself does not remain invisible. How do I expose the conventions if they are operating through the material, as if there were the choice not to have the meanings that inhere in the exposures made political? Who can account for the conflict of codes brought to the act of reading? If the reading commits to wanting the writing to try to write and not _be_ writing and not _be_ poetry. Reading and writing (reading to write) are positioned in ways next to impossible to identify--there is no free or autonomous or independent view--and experiments with extreme angles get at this, get after this, without surrendering to the fascination of the extreme, as that would be to surrender to annihilation. "It's against barbarism, but not the conditions which produce it!" (Brecht). But to inhabit the conditions that produce the victim, that would provoke a collision with those who 'simply identify with the persecuted, an unthought, undistanciated, unreflexive identification.' And/Or?: "_Anything_ can be written about by anyone (with _power_. And the powerless and powerless not to imitate this.)" So: "The cameraman is the deserted fragment of humanity, absent from the representation but forcefully present as imaginary referent, quite clearly _there_ as well." To separate this sentence from its surrounding remarks about late 1940s Belgian surrealist shock aesthetics in a brief critique of Tsuena Nakai's "Alchemy" cited as first appearing in "Studio International," March 1975, would be to separate the sentence from a surrounding irony nowhere inflected in the single sentence. "Words and images are a public trust and for this reason I will continue with my work regardless of the hardships, even if it costs me my life." From a statement by Mazen Dana made on the occasion of a 2001 International Press Freedom acceptance speech as quoted in the August 18 Guardian report of his death the day before. "Suddenly, the camera seems to vault from the car, in a long take composed of violent, short pans back and forth as the cameraman runs toward the action, finding people taking cover. The result is shaky, blurry, Brakhage-like footage of earth and background buildings that sometimes holds briefly on human figures." This from another essay where attention is given to the excision from Mark Oberhaus' 1988 documentary of "excessive, perhaps unreadable" 'technological surplus' from the first live footage aired from the scene of November 22, 1963. One problem here is counterposing "a classically traumatic event in recent U.S. cultural and political history" with the problem of an on-going regime of the image from within the further problem of what might be called a shock aesthetic of the machined stare. "The machine is a critique of humanism, the cinematic apparatus is durable, in duration, machined, endless _and_ unendurable, in duration, machined, endless. It is the ineffable stare, machined by the projection of film. The stare as machined via the durable/unendurable continuum is produced by the anti-humanistic debodied, desexed, screened image, forcing the productive viewer from impossible consumption. The relation to an anti-humanistic stare, as opposed to some metaphor for the human, is crucial to this concept." Except that Gidal's remarks elsewhere on the splice would appear to apply to the author's own certainty in the machined stare's 'impossibility of consumption': "Lenin warned that often mechanistic materialism is the greater danger, idealism the lesser, because the latter can still be dialectical and one has to educate away the idealisms, whilst the former is a mechanistic and undialectical basis for whatever formulations are made, theories constructed, politics avowed. Such mechanization is then harder to dialecticize, as it becomes the base for an entire method and practice, whatever the method." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 11:11:37 -0800 Reply-To: underworldhiphop@yahoogroups.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ishaq Organization: Selah7 http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html Subject: [Underworld Hip Hop] 1/4/04 Benefit for WordSlanger's son -- CHECK IT! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PLEASE SUPPORT Benefit concert Sunday 7:30pm at Ashkenaz in Berkeley!! ======================================================= (The following is Part 2 of Fire and Rain: an interview with Ayodele Nzinga at www.sfbayview.com now!) by Ra'shida Askey Ayodele Nzinga, aka WordSlanger, is a spoken word artist from Oakland who can't be fully appreciated until you hear her perform yourself. I had actually been following some of her work for almost a year until universal law fell into place and I was able to get an interview with her. Beyond a spoken word artist, WordSlanger is definitely a teacher of the people and a professor of the poor, as she brings truth to the socio-economic and political circumstances we face as a people in her poetry, in her performance and in just mere conversation. The best talent from our best warriors will not be heard on mainstream television and radio, because these media outlets do not want to support people who create art for people to liberate themselves. Luckily, this warrior woman does not allow the marginalizing mainstream media to keep her work silent while she creates other avenues to feed the community with her talent. On Sunday, Jan. 4, Fire & Rain, a benefit for the son of WordSlanger who suffered severe burns over 22 percent of his body, will be held at Ashkenaz in Berkeley to give us all a spoken word and musical experience that will be food for thought and liberation. Let's take a moment to see what food WordSlanger is slangin' to us for dinner this week. Ra'Shida: Being that you are not motivated by Hollywood, who do you produce product for? WordSlanger: Who am I writing to? Everybody is performing for somebody. When I write, I am not performing for White or mainstream Amerikkka. I am not excluding them, but I am not writing for them. My target is North American Africans and oppressed, marginalized people everywhere. I am interested in fostering and continuing a dialogue about what led to the present, how it is we find ourselves right here, what's important about now, what's real, what is relevant to our struggle, and about the future and how it is we see ourselves in it. When I talk about a revolution these days, it is about a revolution of thought. Some people think that we won the revolution - that we have civil rights and it's all good. I think they trippin'. In some ways, we are worse off as a people than during Reconstruction. I want us to understand the time that we live in is significant. The Black on Black crime rate, the youth murdering each other, the high incarceration rates, the high dropout rate, all of these things are significant and crucial to our ability to survive as a self-authoring people. And I think a lot of time we feel helpless. We are only 11 percent of the population, and that is a reality. But we are also part of a larger group of people that is in actuality a majority on the planet. This group is composed of the oppressed, marginalized, exploited people excluded from the dialogue that runs the world. When we adopt the latter status, it moves us beyond simple divisive issues of race, where we can see the reality of global corporate capitalism as it divides and devours the world. If human beings don't take care of business, Black people won't have to worry about their problems, because society - as we know it - will cease to exist. If we allow ourselves to remain in our current position, would it make it any different if the world was reformed if we remain in our current position? African Amerikkkans have a dual challenge, we have business in the world as human beings and we have business as North American Africans. As human beings, we are at a flashpoint; we have to decide whether or not we want the future to be dominated by a Western European point of view. North American Africans are further challenged by an unfinished conversation surrounding the misappropriation and the resultant traumatic existence composed of marginalization, and exclusion, here in North Amerikkka. In my opinion, the window to complete that conversation is closing on North Amerikkkan Africans. How can we participate in the larger dialogue without finishing our own conversation first? Frankly I don't see how we can join in the conversation that the world is having if we have not taken care of our own unfinished business. People have a dream about leaving the ghetto, chasing the Amerikkkan dream like you can buy it from a catalog and get it shipped to you like Readers Digest. I am looking for the North Star in the hood; I want to change the blocks and spots into neighborhoods. Neighborhoods we have pride in, feel safe in, are invested in, feel motivated to protect and nurture. I believe in building community, and I will never be bigger than my home. I feel like I am going to school for the community because I don't plan to go leave. I'm building an arsenal. I am acquainting myself with how prevailing culture makes meaning. I plan to stay right there in the Lower Bottoms and build. I am pursuing a Ph.D. to be able to better help us formulate whatever theory it is we need to formulate in order to be effective in spite of, around or through the systemic causes of our oppression. So in the vernacular of the streets, I'm hood for life. Ra'Shida: As a mother, what is the greatest threat to our Black community? WordSlanger: Simple statistics are enough to terrify you. One in six go to jail, one in five die before the age of 21. More are bound for the penitentiary than college. As Marvin X likes to say, the dope man remains the number one employer of our youth. Just trying to beat the statistics and the odds is a full time job. I have five sons, and it remains difficult in this society to raise men. The system itself conspires against it. One of the most crucial issues we need to address as a community is a concept of family. It is imperative that we focus and concentrate on building strong Black families and acknowledge the accomplishment as a revolutionary act. Ra'Shida: Why is it revolutionary to raise Black families? WordSlanger: It's another way of creating food for the table. Soldiers raise soldiers. We are good at division. We have been taught to divide. We have had lessons in division every since the ship and the Middle Passage. We don't multiply or add as well as we divide. We are slow to pull resources, to act decisively, to have concern about someone outside of ourselves. We lack the skills to build. How are we going to build a community if we cannot raise a family? It is our families that compose our communities. If you raise sons who don't go to jail, who don't deal dope, who respect themselves and other Black people, who honor the concept of family, then they will - in turn - build strong Black families. Ra'Shida: Describe the event Jan.4, 2004. WordSlanger: The event is called Fire & Rain, and it is a benefit for my son. He was burned over 22 percent of his body; he has had eight surgeries so far and will have to have more. He has had skin graphs, all the fingers on his right hand were amputated, and he is looking at a couple of years of extensive physical therapy. He has to wear special garments. He was in the hospital for two months. His total recovery is anticipated to take a couple of years. And the community came together, and most of the performers performing are friends of mine or friends of friends who care enough to come in an effort to make sure Koran gets what he needs and enable me to continue to do what I do. I do not think that there is anything worse than when you see yourself as a protector of your community and your family and something bad reaches inside of that circle and touches one of yours. It wounds you in a way that nothing else does - especially when it is mother and child. I'm a solider. Not just a soldier, a general. I have overcome immense personal adversity in my own life. I have been through a lot of things that have wrecked people. I am still standing, still serving food for the table. But when my child got hurt, it's like the whole world stopped. I say from the bottom of my heart, it was the community reaching up and putting its hands on me, holding me and my family, praying for us, calling, going back and forth to Sacramento to see my son in the hospital, dropping food off at my house, sharing limited resources, giving me cash that enabled me to soldier through it. Community came and they tried as hard as they could to create a space where I could navigate through the emotional upheaval and support my son and to enable me to do what it is I do. A lot of the times, artists and activists work in a vacuum. You are centered around an event, an issue, a project, and you do not really know the type of effect you are having on the community. You don't know whether or not they are feeling you. I felt love from the community. And if I sound kind of surprised, I am, because you never really know whether or not someone is listening or if they have been touched. It gives me strength to continue doing what I do, because I know there is an army out their traveling off the food I keep putting on the table. There are always lessons to be learned in life. Every experience in life can leave you with some knowledge. I know that I work for community and that community for me is a real entity, and not a euphemism. I try to walk what I talk. It is an important part of the whole thing to be real about what I talk. It's from the heart. A lot of times I feel alone in a vacuum. One of the things that is helping us get through what happen to my son is the outpouring of concern from our community. 'Fire & Rain' Everybody needs to come out to the Fire & Rain event on Sunday, Jan. 4. It will be at Ashkenaz, 1317 San Pablo Ave. in Berkeley, from 7:30 p.m. until - and it is $10-$20 sliding scale. It is important that we as a community support our own artists from our communities, because they are the ones who create art for our better livelihood. For all the food that WordSlanger has put on our community table, it is time to show our support for her struggle and come to the benefit. Bring your friends and family out to see the work of this warrior woman griot as well as all the other performers like JT the Bigga Figga, Rudi Mwongozi, Paradise, Gabriella, the Congo Square 2 Drum Circle and more. This is the right way to start off 2004 as a community of soldiers. You can find updates and enjoy the work of WordSlanger at WordSlanger.8k.com, and for more information you can contact WordSlanger at wordslanger@aol.com or write c/o Prescott Joseph Center, 920 Peralta St., Oakland CA 94607, Suite D. Email Ra'shida at rashida@sfbayview.com. -- - ___ Stay Strong "Peace sells but who's buying?" Megadeth "This mathematical rhythmatical mechanism enhances my wisdom of Islam, keeps me calm from doing you harm, when I attack, it's Vietnam" --HellRazah http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html http://awol.objector.org/artistprofiles/welfarepoets.html http://ilovepoetry.com/search.asp?keywords=braithwaite&orderBy=date http://www.dpgrecordz.com/fredwreck/ http://www.lowliferecords.co.uk/ http://loudandoffensive.com/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/THCO2 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 12:47:12 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Reading, PA Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit My "impoverished" hometown made the cover of New York Times today for suing the state for enforcing Bush's education program! (another example of seeming to enforce quality of education that has the effect of course of driving another nail in the coffin of public education....) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 15:27:40 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: Anything Else, We'd Call The Spring Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed always listen -- who... where... where iron scarred snow aren't we almost worn very ever clearly how, but, might cause power stick to books, sir, cease your sparse answers again we, sister, still aren't covered sir, why that's sloppily tried, when you threw your time into the speak of me like you cotton to who winters me what's genuine from all those trees is nothing next to Virginia I, sir, caught that lady baking me _________________________________________________________________ Check your PC for viruses with the FREE McAfee online computer scan. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 15:28:43 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: The Lamp Of Faraway Overnights Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed in sleep it levitates lamp? you'll get a floating one impacted with laurel the leaves, erupting, work fluttering river the foam heats continues to hand space to each year see if this avalanche, dazzling hot undisturbed continued, is favored by anyone _________________________________________________________________ Take advantage of our limited-time introductory offer for dial-up Internet access. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 12:20:03 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Failing to gnaw on the plastic straw. In-Reply-To: <001501c3d0ef$a1480a40$072b1e43@k6k12c9frvhhz6p> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" the middle term is creeley: no things but in words. thus you have a perfect transition from wcw to cb. At 11:16 PM -0600 1/1/04, Brent Bechtel wrote: >Recently, Kirby Olson posted a message to another list stating the >following: > > " 2 goof-ups in American poetics: > > 1. Only things -- WCW > > 2. Only language -- Bernstein etc. " > >I thought to myself, well now - William Carlos Williams and Charles >Bernstein might not really be opposite ends of a spectrum, but if there are >alleged excesses - towards categories of "things" or "language" - maybe this >is something that should be addressed. > >Yes - something that should be addressed. > >There being no other volunteers (cowards!) - I took this task upon myself. > >Making use of our modern tools, I took a sampling of Will Bill and a >sampling of Bernstein, and thus created the perfect poem, melding both the >"thing" and "language" aspects of their unique styles. > >Sincerely, >Brent Bechtel >http://bechtel.blogspot.com > >===== > >Failing to gnaw on the plastic straw. > > >The barfly >butters his foyer >with a fat girl >from an odd January, >dyed in Villon's time. > >Snow, this full, >fragile head, >slips sidewise, >full of dressing. > >The open street-door >lets in the tongue, >thundering slantwise >and cold on the steady car - >heckling at you >and your aesthetic values. > >You will read >these flowers from New York, >and lose your second husband >to a spilled cream soda. > >Orange, always orange. > > >[Brent Bechtel, > WCW & Bernstein] -- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 16:38:51 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: cancellation of St Louis poetry radio show MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Folks, This is very sad news. A friend of mine emailed me -- "Mike was not only one of the few poetry radio show hosts in the country, but he presents poetry from a global standpoint -- he often featured African, Israeli, or Eastern European or other non-American poets on his show. That to me is very important, especially considering the current political climate in this country." -Aaron ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Castro" To: "Aaron Belz" Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 3:29 PM Subject: Re: [readings @ city museum - halftime report] Aaron, I remain interested in the series you are developing & have not forgotten my invitation to visit Poetry Beat. Unfortunately, Poetry Beat is in trouble, having been unexpectedly cancelled by the KDHX Programming Committee after a fourteen year run. There have been numerous expression of outrage by members of the diverse poetry commmunities & just plain old loyal listeners & the decision will be appealed by myself & anyone else who wishes to attend the next programming committe open meeting at 4:30, January 14th, 625 South Euclid, Suite 100. If you wish to express your support you can attend or email the station director, Bev Hacker, at bhacker@kdhx.org & ask her to forward your message to the members of the programming committee. Poetry Beat is one of the few Poetry radio programs in the country and probably the longest running. In any event, good luck with your projects... the beat goes on. Michael C. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 17:45:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: "Double-sonnet: Methane" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Double-sonnet: Methane I. It's hard to know where to begin. Kenny started growing his own methane out behind the house when he was in his early forties and has continued to this very day. The little methane bushes he ultimately moves to rows in the garden, but in this climate they need to be started off in a greenhouse or at least a solarium. During the winter these would need to have some form of heat, no? So, my job is to tear down the knotty pine siding and burn enough of it every day to keep the solarium warm on those frequent days at these latitudes that we don't get any sun. He plants his little methane bushes in between the rows of lemon trees out back, the ones we keep alive over the long winters here by firing up the smudge pots. Once Kenny's recovered from the animals and the pool and the narcotic analgesics he's had to take every four hours, he'll be on his feet again, out in back, tending his little bushes. Much of what Kenny says is complex and interesting, but around here we have lots of those little old half wine barrels you find sometimes at home II. and garden stores, so knowing where to plant him when he's not up to snuff is never a problem. I wish I could see your house. It probably has some of those pipes and ducts and things running all around from the water-heater to keep things warm, and one of those slatty wooden things in the corner of the kitchen that make the room so cozy. Now, it's come to my attention that a rumor (sort of) has been associated with my name and the end of my fifty-year marriage to Kenny. It seems that some of you are under the impression that I had affairs behind Kenny's back, not once, not twice, but many, many times over the years. Even that I cheated with Betty. But I want you to know that Kenny and I never had affairs without the other's knowing and approving and sometimes even participating. So, there it is—the idea that I went behind Kenny's back is absolute fucking false. I hope this clears up the confusion in anyone's mind. I did not cheat . . . not ever, not even after Kenny died and all his little methane bushes had long since been plowed under. Not even after Kenny died and all his little methane trees had long since been plowed under. End of story. Really. Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard@earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard The Sonnet Project: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/The%20Sonnet%20Project.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 15:09:57 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ram Devineni Subject: Centenary of Neruda In-Reply-To: <1073001042.3ff4b2522a11c@mail1.buffalo.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Dear Friends: 2004 is the 100th anniversary of the birth of Pablo Neruda. Neruda represents the spirit of our "Dialogue through Poetry" programs and the vision of the United Nations. So, we are dedicating March 2004 to the end of July 2004 to celebrate his legacy and the ideals of being a "global citizen." We are asking publishers, reading coordinators, and poets to setup poetry readings, conferences, and presentations around this theme. To list your event, please visit our site at: http://www.dialoguepoetry.org/neruda.htm Also, we have received encouragement from the Neruda Foundation. A letter can be found at: http://www.dialoguepoetry.org/neruda/neruda_letter.pdf Lastly, we are working with Mark Eisner on promoting a new collection / translations of his poems titled, "The Essential Neruda: Selected Poems" (City Lights), which will be released in April 2004. You can pre-order the book on our site. If you have any questions, please email Larry Jaffe at jaffe@dialoguepoetry.org Sincerely, Ram Devineni and Larry Jaffe ===== Please send future emails to devineni@rattapallax.com for press devineni@dialoguepoetry.org for UN program __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Find out what made the Top Yahoo! Searches of 2003 http://search.yahoo.com/top2003 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 15:44:27 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Days in Crawford Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit "Mark Knoller of CBS News, scrupulous keeper of records of presidential activity, reports that this visit is Bush's 29th to his Texas ranch as president, so he has stopped at the ranch on all but three of his 32 presidential trips to Texas. Knoller reports that Bush has spent all or part of 214 days at his ranch. Since New Year's Day was Day 1,077 of the Bush presidency, he has been in Crawford for one-fifth of the days in his term. He is scheduled to return to Washington on Saturday." I don't know what to make of these facts other than I was unaware and that we really have a certain kind of "homeboy" for Prez, etc. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 00:01:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: nn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII nn moaning, nietzsche's quote by nietzsche, from his notebooks There is no form in nature, child I used to do errands for Mr. nietzsche? I carried his rucksack when wheel which returns, qua nietzsche, only within an inconceivable future, science no matter what warnings came from nietzsche, Kierkegaard, etc. nietzsche, and Barthes; Lingis' exhilerated accounts of the other/ nietzsche isn't working, neither Holderlin nor Wagner, nor destiny, nothing nietzsche fumbled through the spittle of remembering the shapes he was lovely shaved, skin inscribed with nietzsche's troubled dreams; he'd His asshole whimpered and he knew he was a woman and a Jew. nietzsche nietzsche fumbles with the children, dumb! dumb! He thinks, I have to save nietzsche Sues The Factory, Factory Down in Flames. That Will Teach them! nietzsche KNOWS he HAS TO SAVE THE CHILDREN! THEY WERE nEVER SAFE FUCK nietzsche thinks he spells his name. He WORRIES the children. HE WANTS TO Whenever he rants, nietzsche is no doubt really original. On such occa nietzsche and Karl Kraus hmmm... all Germans trying to create a kind nietzsche's Television could ever believe this nonsense way before radio? Against nietzsche anything at all. Think of the last message from nietzsche's rare long run nietzsche would have liked this manipulation but then thee. Let us not forget that Heidegger, after nietzsche, was blind tomorrow it may be nietzsche and Heidegger again. Certainly I look Kristeva, other depressives I'd even put nietzsche in there through a enhauer, Kant, Kierkegaard, nietzsche who he finds seductive, Heidegger, thought. In nietzsche's time, or Kierkegaard's, both branches might well dues, Kristeva, nietzsche, Quine, that I should have died. Ruining my nietzsche, Ecce Homo. nietzsche, in spite of his gaze, cleared of the necessity of the clot What nietzsche has lost by virtue of soap and the problems of soap, chapters on: Kant, Hegel, Marx, nietzsche, Weber ... and chapters on: Kant, Hegel, Marx, nietzsche, Hegel, Marx, nietzsche, Weber, Freud, with nietzsche, Bataille, Jabes, and others, for whom the fragment is Diogenes, nietzsche hobbles along, also hobbled by Christianity as well. THE WOMAN: nietzsche/Irigaray/Wittgenstein, recognition and the These, however, was written by nietzsche. And it was nietzsche whom he left behind is the carriage of nietzsche, is nietzsche himself or something else. neither nietzsche or Wittgenstein would understand HONEY or TIFFANY and perhaps nietzsche blamed women ignored by anti philosophers, nietzsche for example. Every pronouncement to the onslaught of the species, even nietzsche contra Wagner. Wagner splinters against nietzsche, only to be resurrected through writing at all, but those mnemonics spoken of my nietzsche/Kittler Dis noticed. Kittle op. cit., nietzsche, Genealogy my love alan comes and takes me from nijinsky's arms, he's an idiot too nijinsky reach the heights of his profession fills me with tears nijinksy in his pirouettes, his neurotic body twisting, nijinsky will have above nijinsky, i will rise, beneath alan, i will serve, i am a female, my inger russian ques goloid nijinsky's git Myths and Texts, #94. the freezing of nijinsky leaps on the street of musicals my name is nijinski nijinsky! my name is nijinsky nijinski! that fellow nijinski nijinsky! they say ping that fellow nijinsky nijinski! ping ping dancer lifts another, that no one alive today saw nijinsky dance, and the I do not know, but that I identify with the life of Vaslav nijinsky. It is so silent that it is not a language of its own. nijinsky opens taken away, just like Mr. nijinsky does now. Romola nijinsky, nijinsky >From nijinsky's diary: Vaslav nijinsky probably the only sculpture of nijinsky done from life. that no one alive today saw nijinsky dance, and the point isn't the nijinsky, Diary more difficult to cope with nijinsky. He was more silent and irritable 6 Hungry dancers the ninubaski Master nijinsky, nureyev, Baryshni nijinsky apres tous nijinsky _ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 00:01:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: 10-year history MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII (culled from www.asondheim.org) a 10-year history of loving, writings, video, soundwork, net work, unemployment, depression, illness, sadness, death, violence, bombings, wars, pollutions, extinctions, starvations, loving comprehension. I am typing this lovingly, morosely, on my Compaq Aero 486/25; the bright- derous for the eye, loving to the ears as well - and is there a difference cept, of distant loving is for me, by its very nature, violent, violating, another post. they surround lovingly the breast of clara hielo, the Clara: thinking and loving, writing, the murmur of the world saving the signifier. Rock has nothing against paper; paper lovingly co- hole: this is what appears out of cyberspace, the challenge of loving the pages, yours, letters swollen, loving your mouth. they will lovingly listen to your talking, and they will talk with you. 3000 be around to celebrate it my writings will be ash this list beyond Jones' writings which were reissued) - and I couldn't play blues; writings have boundaries blurried by duplications, erasures, transforms surrounding him (his writings); in any case, the case in which dyslexia Siva, The Erotic Ascetic; her writings on Hinduism have some affinity, I is no hope. My great vision has disappeared in little writings. I lose scattered among interpenetrated writings writings share accountancy in common, the earlier computers considered The dispersion of the first and last writings are identical. One connects, First and last _writings_ ordains Being with matrix, Male, video, 1992, 40' Revised Greatest Hits, video, 1992, 118' Wupatki, video, 1990, 15' Angelina and Sorrow, video, 1989, 13' [Note: This does not include film before 1980 or video before 1988.] 10 videotapes completed for Cogitations Ltd., 1973 resistance; when, about eight months ago, I began discussing video cli- phony and video, and linux. placing the others. Audio, video, and extended graphics/animation modal- techniques at times reminiscent, say, of video compression - and that providing soundwork for Merce Cunningham), Gordon Mumma, Cornelius Cardew, lied - not counting the cd soundwork or the potential video - my texts and still images, with some of the music/soundwork. oh i can move among spaces videos, soundworks, and performances. Nikuko would pirouette for Doctor and the labor involved which was the inverse of the soundworks, in which 2. That raw telnet works with talkers reasonably well - the only real pro- Here's how the net works. You get attracted to someone. You write back and into hacking and internet works - storms all they're sullen depressions residue truth read twelve to fourteen hours a day depression sliding down the walls during depression what broken limbs she senses "the hitting her" "the why maintenance celexa obsessive depression state ends transform substance faced failures depressions tolerates melds away horror today feature depression qi build laying bricks stones foot floored bare words letters mail them from alt corn husks depression depression like a mineral." for the most part a thing of the past. Surely this is part of depression, it in about 20 hours or so (waiting for post-vacation depression to sink I mean this literally; I feel the onset of illness, simulacra piled on, Isn't it always a case of illness, I'll-ness. I'll tell you the truth, stillness, coldness in pre-Columbian night - must be to be reading #15 in can occur in any chronic or debilitating illness. ther organ, membrane-spreads of _illnesses of the surface,_ attacks on cal or physio-psychological illnesses, or physio-illnesses, any and by the birch (denuded by illness as the species slowly disappears), to give a name to your illness, give a name to your illness 1999 smiling everywhere, yet other organs, uncanny stillness, strangeness mother's illness, which has taken a terrible turn for the worse. I keep lete, the passing of a favorite. There is an incontrovertible sadness making you feel wonderful."}, {"cry", "%n cries, half in sadness and sary to present this sadness: "_a_ [..] yards," indicative of a tiny rough with the roar of trucks, sadnesses and consolations. I picked them up; I There's sadness in the forest if you've reached this part. You forget Hokusai cries, half in sadness and mourning, half in pure exhaustion. la daraine There's sadness in the forest if you've reached this part. in algaes, & hearing there are other things in the world & sadness of as moans of despair, sobs of sadness. They were the groanings of a per- much sadness although ( a fact the _instrument_ of the death of the species, the death of being- locate ourselves in the dominion of death. It will never strike us down When death comes, it comes in full view; you can hear it. Today I walked durate, even death which is becoming a _deduction._ For ourselves, for olding. So isn't death a residue? death, love, colonization; they stop objects from sliding beyond tradi- Gender: vaginality/eccentric space/binding/origin/death/displacement death |, meets the totalizahon of organs, and so on. Thus I am y i Seduced solitude oi death in both I am hole again. death and its simulacra.) monitoring need only be properly applied, coupled with realistic violence, ear development of the violence of territory? Hunting _grounds_ are un- Native American had to lose ground. Ignorance, racism and violence accom- I don't suggest you seek it out. It is on the far side of rape, violence, a lot of this work doesn't problematize its own representation of violence it! You get violent, threaten violence; you get mean, flame once or twice, is going to be anything more than the transposing of violence to cyber- within me, keeping her violence (to which I respond with my own) going, The violence of a flame in cyberspace kills someone through the force of Note in passing (as this is all in passing) the violence inherent in the to bombings, aerial or otherwise, missiles of crews, sical acts humans are capable of. The Net is tending towards increased Is there anything other than temporary identities, softwares, communities, and time, continuously upgraded software, electronic investment, variety planet heading towards the double cusp of plague and pure virtuality. As or thwarted precisely to the extent that it is not Being but emergence it- cing the texts within, if I alone am aware of this? And such a totality sion. It's awkward, inoperable; it belongs nowhere. It's not publishable incoherent maintenance of inscriptions. Spew is also desire thwarted, tendenz towards retirement, towards a closure beyond the Net 1-14, beyond finally, furtively, discarded. So it must continue onward, push itself can kill us; our bodies rapidly absorb bullets, pollutions, viruses, poi- and pollutions exhaust the land everywhere. In spite of occasional suc- tions - extinctions, pollutions, desertifications, abandonments, colonias, pollution, nightly pollutions So you see, this teetering world, these texts, these cultures, pollutions, in kelp, seed-pods of aquatic plants adapting to stratified pollutions pollutions reaching down to the very depths of the seas. - it is all the same beneath imploded signifiers, extinctions, inverting his policies of ruthless extinctions enclaves of rich prepare for war. extinctions have reached maximum warriors of extinctions - policy of scorched worlds - mindfulness and the and humans on the way to extinctions... _lost processes,_ extinctions of variables and elegance. The _shamble_ word to cover changes such as flexiwork, global extinctions, here i will survive until the final extinctions animal/plant extinctions, my inability to support myself at this point, tions - extinctions, pollutions, desertifications, abandonments, colonias, guor, infinite erotics, starvations, extinctions: FOR A LIMITED TIME ONLY. _ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 00:00:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: hsn Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings and racism In-Reply-To: <000501c3cfd6$ee9ca4a0$388cad43@comcast.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 12/31/03 2:47 PM, "Haas Bianchi" wrote: > I went yesterday to see the Lord of the Rings and was frankly bored, even > when I was 12 I found LoR a real bore.<< yeah, to most 12 yr olds i imagine a story about friendship, integrity & courage during inner & world upheaval would be boring. i find the notion a little absurd that a story/film rooted in a particular mythology is obligated to represent other cultures/races in appearance -- and that this 'failure' should invalidate its various & relevant representations shared in the spectrum of human experience. it would be fine to see such a film with any or all races, colors, genders, sexual preferences, religions, IQs, sizes, etc. but how 'bout encouraging the creation/production of such rather than attacking a fine production because of your image requirements... couldn't, hsn *btw - the 'bad' characters appeared caucasian as well (besides maybe the monsters, which were whatever) & the most evil of all was A HUGE EYE. (lol) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 05:18:30 -0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "david.bircumshaw" Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings and racism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've been watching this discussion about LOTR with interest, I have some multiple takes on it. For a start, I'd say that LOTR is an overblown epic of bad writing which is slightly reprieved by its appendices, which have elements of wit. The twitching stereotypicality of its characterisation is reflected the films, the best features of which are the vistas panoramica and some special effects. There are elements in the whole Tolkien thingy I have a particular take on: I, like him, spent most of my childhood in Birmingham. Although of a later generation than Tolkien I can realise that parts of the book are about the encroachment of industrial Birmingham on places like Sarehole Mill, which he loved, in Hall Green, the epitome of Hobbit-land, where happy beer-drinking small-sized males only (to deminish the notion of possible aggression, you see) congregated together in innocence only to be engulfed by the Dark Lands, or Moseley Bog, where most of the trees were. These were Tolkien's mental landscapes, overlaid by a study of mediaeval and old english literature. Whether the books are racist, I am not sure, maybe maybe not, I suspect that from the level of the literary unsophistication of the narrative portion of the texts he wouldn't have realised if they were, when I was a kid one of my favourite jokes (by me) about the book was that it read like 'the Bible rewritten by Enid Blyton'. Its Brummieness, its parts of my local habitation and etc of growing up, I do like, I know which trees he liked, I like still the attempt to repopulate the desiccated mental landscapes of contemporary liter-realities with them hobbits, dwarves, elves, etc. So, where are we? It is a great bad book that has produced an even less curious film about human action than the novel that is also impressive for its effects. Aii yeah yaa - what does one say!!???!! Best Dave David Bircumshaw Spectare's Web, A Chide's Alphabet & Painting Without Numbers http://www.chidesalphabet.org.uk ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 21:43:10 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Walter K. Lew" Subject: Small groups, big groups Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Lots of programs that wd benefit large numbers of Americans have been gutted or stymied over the years and lots of programs that only benefit "small groups" are routinely extended/expanded. It's not a matter of headcounts (i.e. those that are tallied w/o regard to class and political belief), but (predictably) of the movements of Kapital, although, of c, Kapital spends hard to bluff as many people as possible into going along with its owners, one of the "small groups" that Haas refers to. That one wd prioritize certain "larger" concerns over others is not surprising, since that's a tactical issue. (An example wd be Ariana Huffington saying this afternoon that the main issue in the upcoming election has to be how to make sure that Bush gets kicked out, no matter whether it's Gephart or Dean or, etc. that does it, altho she didn't have a reply to someone's comment that Lieberman might be just as bad.) That any one wd be considered inherently more important, however, is controvertible. So much of what is considered small groups' interests, such as relate directly to inmates, the elderly (small?), children (small?), or undocumented workers, are only a matter of exercising basic civil rights and obtaining the wherewithal to SURVIVE. --Walter K. Lew Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 11:46:50 -0600 From: Haas Bianchi Subject: Re: A political point of view, sorry. here is the point-- when programs and movements benefit the whole of society they are popular and they get democratic support but when programs are focused on small groups they become the focus of attacks and as we saw with welfare reform these programs can be gutted. But gutting Social Security is not a problem because everyone gets it-- the goal on the left should be extending rights to everyone. > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Mark Weiss > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 8:50 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: A political point of view, sorry. > > > I may have misread, but I think the point was that a platform promoting, > say, a government health care system and federal funding of > education might > be both more appealing to the majority and more useful in creating > something like social class equity than underwriting some of the costs of > medicine for the poor and the elderly or supplementing school funds in > low-tax revenue communities. > > Mark > > > At 06:22 PM 1/1/2004 -0800, Timothy Yu wrote: > >Isn't it disappointing, as Kirby Olson suggested yesterday, that the > >United States is not more like Finland--98.7% white--or that the rest > >of us "others" have not yet been driven out by the harsh climate or > >repeated beatings. > > > >And it's also convenient that the American left is able to continue > >to blame its failings (as it has since the end of the 1960s) on those > >"separatist" groups--Kirby Olson's and Haas Bianchi's catalog > >includes African-Americans, feminists, gays and lesbians--that have > >worked to open up American politics to a full range of voices. (It's > >ironic, in this respect, that Bianchi would follow up his take on the > >left's "splintering" with a post bemoaning the all-Nordic good guys > >of Lord of the Rings.) > > > >I don't pretend to have a solution for the challenges to the left > >that Bianchi, Olson, and others have usefully put forward. But I > >certainly don't think that the left is going to succeed by seeking to > >turn back the clock to a moment of imagined unity, or by casting out > >its one of its most vital constituencies: those groups that have > >historically been disenfranchised by racism and sexism. I'm not sure > >there's much place for me in a left that looks like Finland--that's a > >left that sure isn't going to produce a "new Lincoln." > > > >Tim Yu > >http://tympan.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 21:50:11 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Walter K. Lew" Subject: Who pays? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" In a prison, carrying bricks is part of what you pay. Also, people pay big-time to work in a sweatshop or brothel. --Walter K. Lew Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 12:38:21 -0500 From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Publishing question >? Or are they >just money making schemes by the publishers since they are trying to get the >poet to purchase the anthology? In a real anthology they pay you. Same thing with, say, construction work: you dont have to pay to carry bricks. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 05:58:00 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Craig Allen Conrad Subject: civil unions YES, gay marriage NO, and my argument WHY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i'm bringing this up because the gay marriage poll has popped up here. and i've been FLOODED with e-mails about this from friends and family and some boyfriends whose last names i've long forgotten. but to be honest with you, no way. there's no way in hell i'd ever support gay marriage. civil unions are of course fine. civil unions give queers all we'd need to feel confident that when a lover dies, the homophobic parents can't clear out the bank account and take all the photographs etc., and kick us to the street. but marriage? the church? and the hundreds of years with the hundreds of thousands tortured and put to death? i met an Italian man involved with a queer task force in Rome. he says that EVERY TIME the pope makes one of his ridiculous speeches denouncing gay marriage or gay adoption, that gay bashing goes through the roof over there! i've heard the argument over and over about changing it from within. but why? by the time you'd get finished changing it it wouldn't exist anymore anyway! my experience has been that when queers get in touch with their loving Jesus that all kinds of nasty things pimple out of them. sexism in particular, for instance. there are so many books written about queers coming "back" to the church, as though they had ever been allowed in. and one of the BEST examples of the WORST kind of behavior i'm talking about happened when i was working at a queer bookstore and had to introduce authors. this one guy had written a book about spiritual warriors, or something. it's a dark story about his born again family LITERALLY telling him that even if he killed himself there'd be no possible hope of them shedding a tear. that's actually a letter in the book, from his mother. the room was filled with about 50 white guys just like the author. over and over there were tears shed, these guys saying that they've accepted Jesus as their savior but the church won't let them! huh? anyway, the whole thing just made me insane. and at Q&A, one of these born-again-wannabees wiped his cheeks of tears and asked our brave author if "we need to be worried about the Promise Keepers." the author said, literally, "No, they're only interested in hurting women's rights." what?!!! no one even FLINCHED when he said that. so i raised my hand, and said, "yeah but, aren't LESBIANS women!? and aren't THEY part of the gay and LESBIAN community? and furthermore, don't we all realize that there would have NEVER been a gay and LESBIAN movement without the women's movement?" because, hey, there were a LOT of lesbians in the women's movement, and THEY were the ones busting their asses politically later for gay rights. some men also, but not at first and never as tenaciously, at least not until AIDS and ACT UP, or until a gay porn shop or movie house was being threatened by a city councilman looking for reelection. of course, it's mostly wealthier white gay men who are suddenly in charge of everything in the queer community now (who are shedding just as many tears about not being loved by the Republican Party, but that's another story for another time). (in many ways, similar ways, it always boils down to privilege, and who would have it IF ONLY they were straight.) anyway, i know that that's just one example. and i know there are PLENTY of wonderful people who are christians and jews and all that. i'm really not being a jerk saying that all people who go to church are evil. i just can't STAND the idea of standing on all those graves in the name of assimilation. our bodies and desires have been controlled and mutated and destroyed for too many years to let them give the blessing, ever. fuck their blessing and fuck gay marriage! i just don't want the church to be allowed to look THAT good, ever. let's not forget that gay men were first called faggots during the Inquisition because so many of them were burned at the stake under the feet of women (there was a belief that a witch could not burn by sticks "faggots" alone) that these men became synonymous with the burning sticks. Joan of Arc had several gay men working with her (who were also put to death, although i believe they were hanged), as did many wise women of the age who were caught, and burned alive. poet Judy Grahn has a good book about it called ANOTHER MOTHER TONGUE. so think about this when taking the poll. there's a box for civil union, not as popular as the gay marriage box it seems. CAConrad ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 08:07:44 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kazim Ali Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings and racism In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii it's funny: because it most of the film (most of every film i guess) was a white white world i hadn't thought of the absence of anyone who looked like me (as opposed to say Star Wars where the evil fu manchu guys were attacking that girl who so clearly stole her hair and make-up concepts from kurosawa) (then of course those evil indian guys on the elephants showed up--that was like indiana jones and the temple of doom) what i did notice about lord of the rings is the beauty vs ugliness thing. i mean there are no un-stunning elves. the dwarf is the only un-stunning hero and he's well he's supposed to be crusty and surly. don't make arguments about the ghosts at the end being ugly--that's not what i mean. but you knew that steward was going to be up to no good as soon as he started eating those cherry tomatoes just like you knew Faramir would turn out okay at the end because he was cutie. the evil on the other hand is always twisted and misshapen. except i guess Saruman. even the hobbit actors are getting stud treatment on the cover of whatever that magazine was. but in that sense it's not unlike any fairy tale in which the exterior is used to represent the interior. evil witch and all that. of course on the plus side as i keep telling the homophobic people in my family "God, Gandalf kicks ASS. And you know what? He's GAY!" > > *btw - the 'bad' characters appeared caucasian as > well (besides maybe the > monsters, which were whatever) & the most evil of > all was A HUGE EYE. (lol) ===== ==== WAR IS OVER (if you want it) (e-mail president@whitehouse.gov) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Find out what made the Top Yahoo! Searches of 2003 http://search.yahoo.com/top2003 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 11:18:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: fun commands! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII fun commands! 8 whew 9 ls 10 ha ha ha 11 h 12 brrr 13 hmmm 14 hahaha 15 oh ho ho ho 16 rrrr... 17 zzzzsh... 18 hee hee 19 whoo wha 20 wa hoo! 21 heh 22 harrhh harhh 23 zing zang! 24 uh hum hee hee hee! 25 ho! 26 ho ho ho har hee hee hah! 27 h > zz; pico zz _ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 11:26:42 -0500 Reply-To: mbroder@nyc.rr.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "mbroder@nyc.rr.com" Subject: Re: civil unions YES, gay marriage NO, and my argument WHY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All of this ranting against organized religion is fine, but it's also totally beside the point=2E When we=20 talk about "marriage" vs=2E "civil union" we are talking about whether or = not same-sex couples=20 should be able to receive state-issued civil marriage licenses which have NOTHING to do with any=20 church=2E So, Craig and others, please get the legal concepts straight an= d stop saying NO to gay=20 marriage=2E We DO want marriage=2E We want civil marriage=2E We do not = want to force any religious=20 institution to recognize or sanction any union that runs counter to their religious principles=2E Michael Original Message: ----------------- From: Craig Allen Conrad CAConrad9@AOL=2ECOM Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2004 05:58:00 -0500 (EST) To: POETICS@LISTSERV=2EBUFFALO=2EEDU Subject: civil unions YES, gay marriage NO, and my argument WHY i'm bringing this up because the gay marriage poll has popped up here=2E and i've been FLOODED with e-mails about this from friends and family and some boyfriends whose last names i've long forgotten=2E but to be honest with you, no way=2E there's no way in hell i'd ever supp= ort gay marriage=2E civil unions are of course fine=2E civil unions give que= ers all we'd need to feel confident that when a lover dies, the homophobic parents= can't clear out the bank account and take all the photographs etc=2E, and kick us to the street=2E but marriage? the church? and the hundreds of years with the hundreds of= thousands tortured and put to death? i met an Italian man involved with a queer task force in Rome=2E he says = that EVERY TIME the pope makes one of his ridiculous speeches denouncing gay marriage or gay adoption, that gay bashing goes through the roof over ther= e! i've heard the argument over and over about changing it from within=2E bu= t why? by the time you'd get finished changing it it wouldn't exist anymore= anyway! my experience has been that when queers get in touch with their loving Jes= us that all kinds of nasty things pimple out of them=2E sexism in particular= , for instance=2E there are so many books written about queers coming "back" to= the church, as though they had ever been allowed in=2E and one of the BEST examples of the WORST kind of behavior i'm talking about happened when i was workin= g at a queer bookstore and had to introduce authors=2E this one guy had writte= n a book about spiritual warriors, or something=2E it's a dark story about hi= s born again family LITERALLY telling him that even if he killed himself there'd = be no possible hope of them shedding a tear=2E that's actually a letter in t= he book, from his mother=2E the room was filled with about 50 white guys just like the author=2E over= and over there were tears shed, these guys saying that they've accepted Jesus = as their savior but the church won't let them! huh? anyway, the whole thing= just made me insane=2E and at Q&A, one of these born-again-wannabees wiped his= cheeks of tears and asked our brave author if "we need to be worried about= the Promise Keepers=2E" the author said, literally, "No, they're only interes= ted in hurting women's rights=2E" what?!!! no one even FLINCHED when he said th= at=2E so i raised my hand, and said, "yeah but, aren't LESBIANS women!? and aren't= THEY part of the gay and LESBIAN community? and furthermore, don't we all= realize that there would have NEVER been a gay and LESBIAN movement withou= t the women's movement?" because, hey, there were a LOT of lesbians in the women's movement, and THEY were the ones busting their asses politically later for= gay rights=2E some men also, but not at first and never as tenaciously, at le= ast not until AIDS and ACT UP, or until a gay porn shop or movie house was being threatened by a city councilman looking for reelection=2E of course, it's= mostly wealthier white gay men who are suddenly in charge of everything in the queer community now (who are shedding just as many tears about not being loved b= y the Republican Party, but that's another story for another time)=2E (in many ways, similar ways, it always boils down to privilege, and who would have it IF ONLY they were straight=2E) anyway, i know that that's just one example=2E and i know there are PLENT= Y of wonderful people who are christians and jews and all that=2E i'm really n= ot being a jerk saying that all people who go to church are evil=2E i just c= an't STAND the idea of standing on all those graves in the name of assimilation= =2E our bodies and desires have been controlled and mutated and destroyed for too many years to let them give the blessing, ever=2E fuck their blessing and fuck= gay marriage! i just don't want the church to be allowed to look THAT good, ever=2E let's not forget that gay men were first called faggots during the Inquisition because so many of them were burned at the stake under the fee= t of women (there was a belief that a witch could not burn by sticks "faggots" alone)= that these men became synonymous with the burning sticks=2E Joan of Arc had several gay men working with her (who were also put to death, although i believe they were hanged), as did many wise women of the age who were caught, and burne= d alive=2E poet Judy Grahn has a good book about it called ANOTHER MOTHER TONGUE=2E so think about this when taking the poll=2E there's a box for civil union= , not as popular as the gay marriage box it seems=2E CAConrad -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 08:47:45 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Weishaus Subject: links page Comments: To: Webartery , Literature and Medicine discussion group MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is a reminder, and the new year seems a good time, of the page of = links I keep for Portland State University's Center for Excellence in = Writing. http://web.pdx.edu/~pdx00282/cew/cew.htm The page is mainly for students of CEW, which is a graduate program = within the English Dept., but I'm told that other people on the Internet = are finding it useful. If you have an on-line literary journal that you want listed, or a = writer who wants your homepage listed, please let me know. The only = qualification is that they must be purely non-commercial. -Joel __________________________________ Joel Weishaus Visiting Faculty Department of English Portland State University Portland, Oregon = =20 Home: http://web.pdx.edu/~pdx00282 Online archive: www.unm.edu/~reality ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 12:07:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ian VanHeusen Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings and racism Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I was surprised to see that no one noticed something very particular about the "evil characters," and that is that they tend to have either 1) Dreads or african garb and or 2) Arab and eastern characteristics. Elephants, drums, and the "evil humans" conspicously dressed with head wraps. Then, in the rallying speach, Aragon cries out,"Men of the west!" I asked a friend if this was in the book, and he believed so. Hmmm... ________________________________________________ Policies dangerously increase. _________________________________________________________________ Get reliable dial-up Internet access now with our limited-time introductory offer. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 09:35:24 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Weishaus Subject: Re: A political point of view, sorry. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Haas: Most people who get into national politics are like wood under pressure: they bend until they can't stand up straight, until the realism we see is above their horizon, and all they can see is Ground Zero. Most who try to resist this, like Clinton during his first months in office, quickly become warped. Sad that the moral, insightful, politician is a rare being. As we are who we become, the nature of politics itself is the problem, that's where reform must begin. Makes me wonder whether Bush really believed he was a "compassionate conservative," before his brains got twisted into a pretzel. I guess we'll never know. -Joel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Haas Bianchi" To: Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 9:46 AM Subject: Re: A political point of view, sorry. > here is the point-- when programs and movements benefit the whole of society > they are popular and they get democratic support but when programs are > focused on small groups they become the focus of attacks and as we saw with > welfare reform these programs can be gutted. But gutting Social Security is > not a problem because everyone gets it-- the goal on the left should be > extending rights to everyone. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: UB Poetics discussion group > > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Mark Weiss > > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 8:50 PM > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Subject: Re: A political point of view, sorry. > > > > > > I may have misread, but I think the point was that a platform promoting, > > say, a government health care system and federal funding of > > education might > > be both more appealing to the majority and more useful in creating > > something like social class equity than underwriting some of the costs of > > medicine for the poor and the elderly or supplementing school funds in > > low-tax revenue communities. > > > > Mark > > > > > > At 06:22 PM 1/1/2004 -0800, Timothy Yu wrote: > > >Isn't it disappointing, as Kirby Olson suggested yesterday, that the > > >United States is not more like Finland--98.7% white--or that the rest > > >of us "others" have not yet been driven out by the harsh climate or > > >repeated beatings. > > > > > >And it's also convenient that the American left is able to continue > > >to blame its failings (as it has since the end of the 1960s) on those > > >"separatist" groups--Kirby Olson's and Haas Bianchi's catalog > > >includes African-Americans, feminists, gays and lesbians--that have > > >worked to open up American politics to a full range of voices. (It's > > >ironic, in this respect, that Bianchi would follow up his take on the > > >left's "splintering" with a post bemoaning the all-Nordic good guys > > >of Lord of the Rings.) > > > > > >I don't pretend to have a solution for the challenges to the left > > >that Bianchi, Olson, and others have usefully put forward. But I > > >certainly don't think that the left is going to succeed by seeking to > > >turn back the clock to a moment of imagined unity, or by casting out > > >its one of its most vital constituencies: those groups that have > > >historically been disenfranchised by racism and sexism. I'm not sure > > >there's much place for me in a left that looks like Finland--that's a > > >left that sure isn't going to produce a "new Lincoln." > > > > > >Tim Yu > > >http://tympan.blogspot.com > > > > > >------------------------------ > > > > > >>Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 15:35:04 -0500 > > >>From: Kirby Olson > > >>Subject: Re: A political point of view, sorry. > > >> > > >>Haas, this is a brilliant summary. I liked it. I think you > > are right. What > > >>are you going to do with all the separatists within the democratic > > >>party? You > > >>have lesbian separatists, black muslim separatists (mutually > > >>exclusive, in many > > >>cases) and separatists of all kinds. In Finland for instance > > they don't have > > >>many of these problems. 98.7 percent of people living in Finland are > > >>Finnish. > > >>Others come for a while but they don't stay. The winters are harsh, the > > >>language is very difficult to master, and you tend to get beat > > up. So it's > > >>easier to attain unity. This country is such a welter -- even with the > > >>remainder of states' rights -- you have a feeling of a coalition of > > >>50 countries > > >>all of whom have border issues, and possessiveness problems. To > > >>create a unity > > >>like you envision would require a great leader -- perhaps someone like > > >>Lincoln > > >>could do it. We need a new Lincoln: someone who can articulate > > >>principles and > > >>then create brilliant rhetoric to set them in motion. I don't see > > >>that but I do > > >>believe in miracles. Perhaps a spirit will rise in one of these leaden > > >>candidates. -- Kirby > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 10:10:00 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Larsen Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings and racism In-Reply-To: <389D5524.07E97575.00796908@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 04:52 PM 12/31/03 -0500, Paolo Javier wrote: > here is a quote from the character of Legolas early on in ROTK that > truly made my stomach turn: "Something stirs IN THE EAST. A sleepless > malice..." the film offers just the kind of imagery & rhetoric our world > needs now, huh? True enough, all the foregoing about the orientalism of LOTR. (And I'm glad to find that others feel the discussion worth continuing.) Scratch the heroic quest narrative and LOTR is nothing but European race-fantasy from end to end. A lot like Europe, in other words. If you look at a map of Middle Earth you'll notice that all the action takes place at the northeastern corner of what is presumably a much larger mass of land, where the southerners are very clearly said (by Gollum in T2T) to have "dark faces." In this connection may be useful to recall that the earliest years of Tolkien's life were spent in South Africa. I had an opportunity to watch the extended DVD of T2T over the holidays, and can report on some material which did not make it into the theatrical version. After the first engagement between Gondor and the elephant-troops of Far Harad, Faramir gives a moving speech on the plight of the southerners as the camera plays over the unveiled face of a VERY handsome dead elephant-warrior. Also fleshed out is the predicament of the hill-tribes who give their allegiance to Saruman: they've been pushed out by the empires of Gondor and Rohan, basically, and have perfectly understandable grounds for resentment. But these are just palliatives at best. Peter Jackson is our Wagner, and he knows it. The timing of Gulf War II (unsubtly exploited by the film's advertisers) only makes it more dreadfully obvious. If you're looking for a "villain" here I would name Tolkien himself --him and the millions of devoted readers whose appetite for primordial race-fantasy he so winningly answered. Number me among them, but with an asterisk please LRSN ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 12:07:57 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: alexander saliby Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings and racism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, Yes, but, as I have asked Haas, what makes use of that kind of = imagery racist as opposed to it's being merely representative of the = traditional symbols for good versus evil?=20 And don't simply tell me it's racist because it's used...tell me what = makes using the images in the films racist? =20 I can only see this symbolism as racist in the context of black versus = white America; I have no frame of reference nor first hand experience to = say whether this black versus white conflict exists in other parts of = the world, so I can't comment on that. =20 For me, efforts from the "Black is Beautiful" theme to shift those = traditional symbols failed, in part because blacks are not black, they = are brown...what was wrong with "Brown is Beautiful?"...but mostly the = efforts failed to shift the meaning of the symbols because the = traditional symbols e.g. Good is white, Bad is black exist in cultures = other than those often depicted by Hollywood in Western Europe and = America. =20 What color is evil in India, in Japan, in Mexico, in China, in Peru, in = African nations, in the Islands, in ancient Arabic literature? Are there = not traditional symbols in all cultures for depicting the universal = struggle? When those symbols are employed by the artists and writers of = those cultures, are they racist for whatever failures they may have in = not encompassing symbols of other cultures? =20 The real problem with the films (all three parts of the trilogy) is that = they are tedious, slow moving, plodding melodramatic recreations of = JRRT's works, and they are cluttered with remarkably poorly written = dialog delivered via some second-rate acting. Although camera work and = special effects in all three films is award winning. If the film goers = were really enjoying the films, their intellects would not have had to = wander in search of philosophical nits to pick...they would have become = involved with the characters and enjoyed watching them win their = battles. =20 Alex=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ian VanHeusen=20 To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=20 Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2004 9:07 AM Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings and racism I was surprised to see that no one noticed something very particular = about the "evil characters," and that is that they tend to have either 1) = Dreads or african garb and or 2) Arab and eastern characteristics. Elephants, drums, and the "evil humans" conspicously dressed with head wraps. Then, in the rallying speach, Aragon cries out,"Men of the west!" I = asked a friend if this was in the book, and he believed so. Hmmm... ________________________________________________ Policies dangerously increase. _________________________________________________________________ Get reliable dial-up Internet access now with our limited-time = introductory offer. = http://join.msn.com/?page=3Ddept/dialup ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 12:16:43 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: civil unions YES, gay marriage NO, and my argument WHY Comments: To: mbroder@nyc.rr.com In-Reply-To: <147710-22004163162642784@M2W083.mail2web.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed In practice I of course agree, and I've put my money where my mouth is. In a better world I'd prefer that all civil marriages (of whoever) were civil unions and that the term marriage were restricted to religious ceremonies. That would at least remove some of the confusion around this issue, and gladden an old atheist's heart. It may be a bit much to expect most of the US voting public to understand that a word can have two meanings. Mark At 11:26 AM 1/3/2004 -0500, mbroder@nyc.rr.com wrote: >All of this ranting against organized religion is fine, but it's also >totally beside the point. When we >talk about "marriage" vs. "civil union" we are talking about whether or not >same-sex couples >should be able to receive state-issued civil marriage licenses which have >NOTHING to do with any >church. So, Craig and others, please get the legal concepts straight and >stop saying NO to gay >marriage. We DO want marriage. We want civil marriage. We do not want to >force any religious >institution to recognize or sanction any union that runs counter to their >religious principles. > >Michael > >Original Message: >----------------- >From: Craig Allen Conrad CAConrad9@AOL.COM >Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2004 05:58:00 -0500 (EST) >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: civil unions YES, gay marriage NO, and my argument WHY > > >i'm bringing this up because the gay marriage poll has popped up here. > >and i've been FLOODED with e-mails about this from friends and family and >some boyfriends whose last names i've long forgotten. > >but to be honest with you, no way. there's no way in hell i'd ever support >gay marriage. civil unions are of course fine. civil unions give queers >all >we'd need to feel confident that when a lover dies, the homophobic parents >can't clear out the bank account and take all the photographs etc., and >kick us to >the street. > >but marriage? the church? and the hundreds of years with the hundreds of >thousands tortured and put to death? > >i met an Italian man involved with a queer task force in Rome. he says that >EVERY TIME the pope makes one of his ridiculous speeches denouncing gay >marriage or gay adoption, that gay bashing goes through the roof over there! > >i've heard the argument over and over about changing it from within. but >why? by the time you'd get finished changing it it wouldn't exist anymore >anyway! > >my experience has been that when queers get in touch with their loving Jesus >that all kinds of nasty things pimple out of them. sexism in particular, >for >instance. there are so many books written about queers coming "back" to the >church, as though they had ever been allowed in. and one of the BEST >examples >of the WORST kind of behavior i'm talking about happened when i was working >at >a queer bookstore and had to introduce authors. this one guy had written a >book about spiritual warriors, or something. it's a dark story about his >born >again family LITERALLY telling him that even if he killed himself there'd be >no possible hope of them shedding a tear. that's actually a letter in the >book, from his mother. > >the room was filled with about 50 white guys just like the author. over and >over there were tears shed, these guys saying that they've accepted Jesus as >their savior but the church won't let them! huh? anyway, the whole thing >just >made me insane. and at Q&A, one of these born-again-wannabees wiped his >cheeks of tears and asked our brave author if "we need to be worried about >the >Promise Keepers." the author said, literally, "No, they're only interested >in >hurting women's rights." what?!!! no one even FLINCHED when he said that. >so >i raised my hand, and said, "yeah but, aren't LESBIANS women!? and aren't >THEY part of the gay and LESBIAN community? and furthermore, don't we all >realize that there would have NEVER been a gay and LESBIAN movement without >the >women's movement?" because, hey, there were a LOT of lesbians in the >women's >movement, and THEY were the ones busting their asses politically later for >gay >rights. some men also, but not at first and never as tenaciously, at least >not >until AIDS and ACT UP, or until a gay porn shop or movie house was being >threatened by a city councilman looking for reelection. of course, it's >mostly >wealthier white gay men who are suddenly in charge of everything in the >queer >community now (who are shedding just as many tears about not being loved by >the >Republican Party, but that's another story for another time). (in many >ways, >similar ways, it always boils down to privilege, and who would have it IF >ONLY >they were straight.) > >anyway, i know that that's just one example. and i know there are PLENTY of >wonderful people who are christians and jews and all that. i'm really not >being a jerk saying that all people who go to church are evil. i just can't >STAND the idea of standing on all those graves in the name of assimilation. >our >bodies and desires have been controlled and mutated and destroyed for too >many >years to let them give the blessing, ever. fuck their blessing and fuck gay >marriage! > >i just don't want the church to be allowed to look THAT good, ever. > >let's not forget that gay men were first called faggots during the >Inquisition because so many of them were burned at the stake under the feet >of women >(there was a belief that a witch could not burn by sticks "faggots" alone) >that >these men became synonymous with the burning sticks. Joan of Arc had >several >gay men working with her (who were also put to death, although i believe >they >were hanged), as did many wise women of the age who were caught, and burned >alive. poet Judy Grahn has a good book about it called ANOTHER MOTHER >TONGUE. > >so think about this when taking the poll. there's a box for civil union, >not >as popular as the gay marriage box it seems. > >CAConrad > >-------------------------------------------------------------------- >mail2web - Check your email from the web at >http://mail2web.com/ . ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 15:54:41 -0500 Reply-To: olsonjk@delhi.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kirby Olson Organization: SUNY Delhi Subject: Re: A political point of view, sorry. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii The server's been down at this tiny rural college since Wednesday so I didn't have a chance to add my two cents on the big issue of race that has come up in two threads. This is for Timothy Yu -- the point about Finland is not that it's racist, but that even in almost perfect societies there are flaws. I have black hair, and was thought to be from India. At night, I often had to outrun drunks who would chase me and say, Go home, India! But they do have many of the things that it seems that the left in this country wants. However, interestingly, they didn't get them through the left. They got them through Lutheranism -- the country is over 90% Lutheran. It's the state church, and through its advocacy programs things have gotten better for women and children (the meek). Women for instance get ONE YEAR off to nurse their child at full pay. They then get THREE YEARS off at 75% pay if they want to raise their child themselves instead of throwing them into a daycare program so that they can sit in a corner and cry and become crazy -- which seems to be the case in this country for so many children.. That just gives you an inkling. I can't say how the entire society is different. They have a female president who was head of her gay & lesbian society at U. of Helsinki. But that isn't to say that everybody should try to move there. Because you'll get your head kicked in, and anyway, the country works on a parallel logic that is very difficult to grasp. The point is to try to make something like that happen here. Now here's something for the Lords of the Ring conversation: the orcs, who I believe are evil people, speak a language that is said by linguists to be based on Finnish. Finns are the lightest people on earth. They look like albinos. The color of skin is a simple genetic deal: without sunlight (Finland is totally dark for twenty-four hours a day in the northern parts, and for 18 hours or so in the southernmost regions for several months of the year) and so in order to activate vitamin D, you had to have very light skin if you wanted to survive. All the darker skin people tended to die off because they couldn't get vitamin D. "Race" is a simple Darwinian algorhythm. If you had dark skin in the north, you died. Interestingly, there is almost no genetic basis to race. Scientists have yet to determine exactly what it is. It doesn't appear to be a real genetic marker that determines it. It's something like a hundredth of one percent of the genetic make-up of an individual, but even what it is hasn't been isolated. They had an article on this in last month's Scientific American. This is why we are all considered to be the same species and can intermarry and yet produce children. So much has been said since Wednesday on this topic of race, etc., that it is hard to respond in full, but to go on any longer risks being difficult for the eyes in cyberspace. I just wanted to reorient the two conversations -- and throw in the problem of the orcs speaking Finnish in the original. Finnish people are the lightest people on earth, and yet their language is that of the orcs, who as I recall (I read the book when I was 12) are bad, or else they are sort of bad. Right? They are mesmerized by Golum (?), or something, into being bad. I'm not going to see the movie. I only like documentaries. -- Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 15:54:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: A political point of view, sorry. Comments: To: Kirby Olson In-Reply-To: <3FF72C11.712ED85A@delhi.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII "Throw their kids into daycare where they can sit in the corner and cry and become crazy"? Oh come on. I had experience in a wonderful daycare, and learned to play with other kids, and I didn't become... Oh shit, I'm a poet. Well, there goes THAT argument. Never mind. Crazy for you, Gwyn McVay --- "Nobody gets paid for being a poemer." -- Bucky the cat, "Get Fuzzy," 6/30/03 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 16:14:10 -0500 Reply-To: olsonjk@delhi.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kirby Olson Organization: SUNY Delhi Subject: Re: Creeley? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Maria, this is a very interesting distinction that you've drawn. I didn't understand it to be honest, but I wanted to. How would you say that words are different from language? Is Creeley then like an evolutionary half-step toward the more enlightened Bernstein, with WCW as the mud creature stepping up on dry land, or was no progression implied? I confess that I don't know Creeley's work very well. I hadn't read him except for a few poems that just seemed so small, or something. Then when I was working on my new book on Codrescu, Codrescu kept insisting that Creeley is very important to him. He was furious with me for not having read him. I got the same thing from Anselm Hollo. Both insisted that he was CRUCIAL to them. So I've been trying to catch up on Creeley, but so far what I most appreciate are the autobiographical essays. He wrote one on his year in Finland, for instance. He mentions that his daughter was killed in a mudslide, or swallowed up in dirt, in New Mexico. It was terrifying, and the prose had a very light feeling in it -- kind of like the cushion of air that supports an air hockey game. But I still haven't gotten a handle on the poetry. I wonder if what you are saying about words would somehow help me to do this. I can't separate the term "words" from the term "language." Does Creeley do this somewhere? If anybody can help me, please do. Is there a book of criticism or something that would help me to enter into Creeley's poetry? Check out this little poem, and explain what about it should send my socks flying. It is on p. 150 of Selected Poems: NAMES Harry has written all he knows. Miriam tells her thought, Peter says again his mind. Robert and John, William, Tom, and Helen, Ethel, that woman whose name he can't remember or she even him says to tell all they know. ?????? help, anyone? I've written to Creeley, and he's super-nice. He told me some fun facts about Gregory Corso, and has said that at age 78 (!) he was recently hired at Brown, and they put him through weeks of orientation, which was unpleasant. Maybe they gave him a sexual harassment workshop, or something. I sense this same problem in George Bowering. Are the two connected? I'm kind of outside the loop here. I do really like Charles Olson. And one of Creeley's early poems, about seeing a bird on the lawn, really struck me full force as great, but I don't even understand his signature poem, "Kore." Never did. It's just too simple or something. What are the coordinates? Backchannel is fine to anybody who wants to send a gloss. -- Kirby Olson Maria Damon wrote: > the middle term is creeley: no things but in words. thus you have a > perfect transition from wcw to cb. > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 21:25:59 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joseph Bradshaw Subject: apropos civil unions/gay marriage Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed the following is an excerpt from a conversation between Paul Murray, an openly gay Catholic priest and professor at Bard College, and Robert Kelly; the entire conversation will be published in issue #2 of FO A RM Magazine later this month. prehaps something of relevance can be found here. ~ RK: The issue of the gay priest seems, on the surface, to be a question about homosexuality vs. heterosexuality, where patriarchal heterosexual tradition abhors and tries to exclude homosexual practice. Isn’t it also, though, another issue and that is: promiscuity vs. monogamy * because the typical homosexual relationship in our society, from what I read, is more sexually active and more socially sexually active than the hetero- one. A promiscuous priest in any tradition is thought of poorly. Isn’t that partly the issue: that the gay man is perceived not simply as someone who has a “male wife,” but as someone who has lots of male “girlfriends,” and who leads a life built around the quest, not of the one (the Holy), but of the many? PM: Yes, that’s a question that’s not really resolved in my mind because marriage is an institution that clearly is connected to procreation and rearing of children. And it’s not even been, in many societies, the assumed locus of erotic fulfillment. So, as it has become a standard form of relationship that we understand to be moral, many gay people have accepted this model. Many others have rejected it as irrelevant to their sexuality. I think that my own personal inclination is to follow the direction of commitment to a single individual, of love that is without limits, the “no matter what” love for another person. I can’t imagine – it would be exhausting to include too many people in that kind of experience of love. I certainly haven’t thought this through in the way that I think this is the standard that I want to preach for others. The late John Boswell, great medievalist of Yale University, pointed out that in so many societies the same-sex-oriented person was often thought to have a special talent for religion, and that this has been no exception for Christianity. Convents for women and monasteries for men have attracted, throughout their histories, large numbers of same-sex-oriented peoples, and I would say that there are disproportionate numbers to the general population of gay men in the ministry, not only in the Roman Catholic Church but in the Anglican Communion and probably in other churches as well. That’s a question that I’ve been puzzling over for some time: what is that connection? Is there some way in which the structure and experience of life of a same-sex-oriented person tends towards spiritual reflection or spiritual service that is different form others? RK: Well, I would say so from my experience, not of being a same-sex-involved person but in being a sex-involved person. It seemed when I first came to know homosexual men, (I didn’t know many when I was young,) what struck me about them, while it wasn’t interesting to me that they liked one another’s bodies, it was interesting to me that they liked sex. They were willing to allow their sexual inclinations to define their attitudes towards life in general. They were willing to be homosexuals in a way that most heterosexuals could not be heterosexuals. I think it bears on what you are saying * it seems to me that it’s a matter of the imagination – it’s a matter of the generosity of spirit and imagination that, if they can conceive of loving, or just screwing 500 people a year, just having the imagination to do that, to leap from him to him to him to him, that in itself represents (though a low level of it) a kind of triumphal imagination that might reach on to thinking of God after God. So, in that sense, I think your perception of the innate connection between the homosexual and the religious is exactly right, and I think that their link is the imagination. Gay people are notoriously drift into the “imaginative” fields, the arts, notoriously so. To come back to the polygamy/monogamy thing, I’ve often thought that gay people today * well, your Archbishop of Boston came out today strongly against gay marriage. And there’s a sense in which I wish I too could come out against gay marriage, too, not because I think gay marriage weakens marriage in the world (in fact I think it strengthens it, the whole social institution), I would urge the gay community to set itself against marriage, not for it – not trying to have this thing. The quest for gay marriage seems to be almost insane. It’s a quest to limit gay love to ways by which others have been socially and legally limited. PM: Well, that’s why I prefer the term “same-sex unions” and that the term Boswell, in fact, used in his final monogram, “Same-Sex Unions in Pre-Modern Europe.” He was accused, very superficially and very homohphobically, of saying, “Well there’s been gay marriage for 1600 years.” That’s not what he said – he was very careful. And actually, as he points out, marriage itself in the Western World has taken many forms. Right into the Middle Ages, there were different forms of marriage. So the idea of duplicating heterosexual marriage as the appropriate form of relationship for gay and lesbian people – I’ve officiated at many same-sex unions and the interesting thing about these ceremonies (at least with the couples that I’ve worked with) is that I tell them, “Now, there are now rules here. The Vatican has not provided guidelines. Someday they may have extensive tomes of regulations and tribunals and so on, but right now they don’t.” So we can do whatever we want and call it whatever we want and yet 99% of the time the couples choose the language and the symbolic forms of heterosexual marriage, right down to the cutting of the cake and placing a piece of cake in each other’s mouths. It’s clearly quite striking that given this kind of “the sky is the limit,” they fall back on the traditional. I guess it’s looking for a sort of legitimacy. RK: The forms that presumable they either saw their own parents manifest or wish they had seen manifested. We have all grown up actually with two sets of parents: the ones we actually have and the ones we imagine we ought to have because of what we get from media images of the ideal family. In the tension between the ideal parents and the real parents is where we find ourselves creating that triangular world that we want to live in. Interesting * how many same-sex unions do you think you might have performed? PM: Somewhere between twelve and fifteen. And I’ve also conducted retreats for couples. And, I must say that one of those retreats stands out in my mind as a moment when the experience of the Spirit’s presence was so intense that I was almost beside myself. It was for both men and women, and I could say that I’ve probably conducted more same-sex ceremonies for men than women. Lesbian relationships seem to be of a longer duration. Men have a hard time staying together. I remember one male couple that, on the top of their cake, they had a cowboy couple, and it was at a country & western bar where they had the reception. It was very precious. [Both laugh.] I love these experiences. I would love to share them with my bishop, with my fellow priests, to get them to see and to taste some of the world that I have known, because the Spirit is there so vividly. It is something so wonderful happening, but they’re not able to see it at this time. RK: Do you think there are any bishops who might, like the old Polish National situation or the Old Catholic situation in the 19th century, any bishops who might one day, either because of their own closeted sexuality or because of their intelligence, might come out and make some real ecclesial arrangements at such communions or congregations? PM: Perhaps, I don’t know. All I see right now is tremendous fear. I know of people who are quite high up in the church who are gay, though I don’t necessarily want to use that term – they are homosexually inclined. There has been conduct along those lines and I think that they are just overwhelmed by fear and it’s very sad. _________________________________________________________________ Working moms: Find helpful tips here on managing kids, home, work — and yourself. http://special.msn.com/msnbc/workingmom.armx ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 15:27:24 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brent Bechtel Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings and racism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This discussion here re: The Lord of the Rings - it's interesting, because it's kind of an extreme view to try to find race issues in everything (I realize race issues exist hidden under layers, or maybe not so hidden, in some works.) It reminds me of fundamentalist Christians in organizations like Focus on the Family trying to find little snippets of sex in Disney films - in some wisp of smoke or something - hey, there's sex. There's probably some sociologic function involved, since I see it as a common behavior in both the left and Christian fundamentalism (maybe oriented around the things they hate or fear) - with the far left looking for marginalization under every speck of dust; fundamentalists looking for sex with the DVD on frame-by-frame watching "Snow White." You can take these things too far, I say, too far. -Brent ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 16:41:14 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings and racism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 01/03/04 3:09:55 PM, alex39@MSN.COM writes: >=20 > What color is evil in India, in Japan, in Mexico, in China, in Peru, in=20 > African nations, in the Islands, in ancient Arabic literature? Are there n= ot=20 > traditional symbols in all cultures for depicting the universal struggle?= =A0 When=20 > those symbols are employed by the artists and writers of those cultures, a= re=20 > they racist for whatever failures they may have in not encompassing symbol= s of=20 > other cultures?=A0 >=20 >=20 Black, often associated with moonlight, is the image of beauty in Turkish=20 literature. Almost never is it white. Murat ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 13:45:38 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: Re: civil unions, gay marriage, In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20040103121236.01decfd0@mail.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit it seems like the entire question is being missed... this in reality a push by the religious right to have bush's constitutional amendment banning "homosexual marriage" pass... and while I agree the marriage is a outmode institution, I do not want to see those who would choose have their rights taken away, by anyone!!. ... I do not care how who votes for what on this silly christian right survey as long as their point is subverted... as a matter fact i think it would be funny if a majority of folks voted for "homosexual marriage".. or more so than those who voted against it..... kari On Saturday, January 3, 2004, at 12:16 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > In practice I of course agree, and I've put my money where my mouth > is. In > a better world I'd prefer that all civil marriages (of whoever) were > civil > unions and that the term marriage were restricted to religious > ceremonies. > That would at least remove some of the confusion around this issue, and > gladden an old atheist's heart. > > It may be a bit much to expect most of the US voting public to > understand > that a word can have two meanings. > > Mark > > > At 11:26 AM 1/3/2004 -0500, mbroder@nyc.rr.com wrote: >> All of this ranting against organized religion is fine, but it's also >> totally beside the point. When we >> talk about "marriage" vs. "civil union" we are talking about whether >> or not >> same-sex couples >> should be able to receive state-issued civil marriage licenses which >> have >> NOTHING to do with any >> church. So, Craig and others, please get the legal concepts straight >> and >> stop saying NO to gay >> marriage. We DO want marriage. We want civil marriage. We do not >> want to >> force any religious >> institution to recognize or sanction any union that runs counter to >> their >> religious principles. >> >> Michael >> >> Original Message: >> ----------------- >> From: Craig Allen Conrad CAConrad9@AOL.COM >> Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2004 05:58:00 -0500 (EST) >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Subject: civil unions YES, gay marriage NO, and my argument WHY >> >> >> i'm bringing this up because the gay marriage poll has popped up here. >> >> and i've been FLOODED with e-mails about this from friends and family >> and >> some boyfriends whose last names i've long forgotten. >> >> but to be honest with you, no way. there's no way in hell i'd ever >> support >> gay marriage. civil unions are of course fine. civil unions give >> queers >> all >> we'd need to feel confident that when a lover dies, the homophobic >> parents >> can't clear out the bank account and take all the photographs etc., >> and >> kick us to >> the street. >> >> but marriage? the church? and the hundreds of years with the >> hundreds of >> thousands tortured and put to death? >> >> i met an Italian man involved with a queer task force in Rome. he >> says that >> EVERY TIME the pope makes one of his ridiculous speeches denouncing >> gay >> marriage or gay adoption, that gay bashing goes through the roof over >> there! >> >> i've heard the argument over and over about changing it from within. >> but >> why? by the time you'd get finished changing it it wouldn't exist >> anymore >> anyway! >> >> my experience has been that when queers get in touch with their >> loving Jesus >> that all kinds of nasty things pimple out of them. sexism in >> particular, >> for >> instance. there are so many books written about queers coming "back" >> to the >> church, as though they had ever been allowed in. and one of the BEST >> examples >> of the WORST kind of behavior i'm talking about happened when i was >> working >> at >> a queer bookstore and had to introduce authors. this one guy had >> written a >> book about spiritual warriors, or something. it's a dark story about >> his >> born >> again family LITERALLY telling him that even if he killed himself >> there'd be >> no possible hope of them shedding a tear. that's actually a letter >> in the >> book, from his mother. >> >> the room was filled with about 50 white guys just like the author. >> over and >> over there were tears shed, these guys saying that they've accepted >> Jesus as >> their savior but the church won't let them! huh? anyway, the whole >> thing >> just >> made me insane. and at Q&A, one of these born-again-wannabees wiped >> his >> cheeks of tears and asked our brave author if "we need to be worried >> about >> the >> Promise Keepers." the author said, literally, "No, they're only >> interested >> in >> hurting women's rights." what?!!! no one even FLINCHED when he said >> that. >> so >> i raised my hand, and said, "yeah but, aren't LESBIANS women!? and >> aren't >> THEY part of the gay and LESBIAN community? and furthermore, don't >> we all >> realize that there would have NEVER been a gay and LESBIAN movement >> without >> the >> women's movement?" because, hey, there were a LOT of lesbians in the >> women's >> movement, and THEY were the ones busting their asses politically >> later for >> gay >> rights. some men also, but not at first and never as tenaciously, at >> least >> not >> until AIDS and ACT UP, or until a gay porn shop or movie house was >> being >> threatened by a city councilman looking for reelection. of course, >> it's >> mostly >> wealthier white gay men who are suddenly in charge of everything in >> the >> queer >> community now (who are shedding just as many tears about not being >> loved by >> the >> Republican Party, but that's another story for another time). (in >> many >> ways, >> similar ways, it always boils down to privilege, and who would have >> it IF >> ONLY >> they were straight.) >> >> anyway, i know that that's just one example. and i know there are >> PLENTY of >> wonderful people who are christians and jews and all that. i'm >> really not >> being a jerk saying that all people who go to church are evil. i >> just can't >> STAND the idea of standing on all those graves in the name of >> assimilation. >> our >> bodies and desires have been controlled and mutated and destroyed for >> too >> many >> years to let them give the blessing, ever. fuck their blessing and >> fuck gay >> marriage! >> >> i just don't want the church to be allowed to look THAT good, ever. >> >> let's not forget that gay men were first called faggots during the >> Inquisition because so many of them were burned at the stake under >> the feet >> of women >> (there was a belief that a witch could not burn by sticks "faggots" >> alone) >> that >> these men became synonymous with the burning sticks. Joan of Arc had >> several >> gay men working with her (who were also put to death, although i >> believe >> they >> were hanged), as did many wise women of the age who were caught, and >> burned >> alive. poet Judy Grahn has a good book about it called ANOTHER MOTHER >> TONGUE. >> >> so think about this when taking the poll. there's a box for civil >> union, >> not >> as popular as the gay marriage box it seems. >> >> CAConrad >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> mail2web - Check your email from the web at >> http://mail2web.com/ . > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 14:04:46 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: A political point of view, sorry. Comments: To: olsonjk@delhi.edu In-Reply-To: <3FF72C11.712ED85A@delhi.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Kirby: This is beyond silly. The French, who certainly didn't get their social policies from Lutheranism, have similar, if less extensive programs, as do many other countries. In particular, while they offer generous leaves to new parents, they also have a superlative government-run day care system, in which very few children go crazy. In our own benighted country, where there are few controls, we sent Carlos to a very carefully chosen day care. He adored it. Mark >However, interestingly, they didn't get them >through the left. They got them through Lutheranism -- the country is >over 90% >Lutheran. It's the state church, and through its advocacy programs things >have >gotten better for women and children (the meek). Women for instance get >ONE YEAR >off to nurse their child at full pay. They then get THREE YEARS off at >75% pay if >they want to raise their child themselves instead of throwing them into a >daycare >program so that they can sit in a corner and cry and become crazy -- which >seems >to be the case in this country for so many children.. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 17:23:18 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: tom bell Subject: Re: Creeley? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit sorry, meant it for the list. tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirby Olson" To: "tom bell" Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2004 4:13 PM Subject: Re: Creeley? > Hi Tom, this came to me only. -- Kirby > > tom bell wrote: > > > Kirby Olson made this interesting psychological observaion on Creeley's use > > of words or language. I would say the language use is 'airey' and the words > > used were 'light' but I'm not sure you can distinguish the two. > > > > tom bell > > > > > I've been trying to catch up on Creeley, but so far what I most appreciate > > are > > > the autobiographical essays. He wrote one on his year in Finland, for > > instance. > > > He mentions that his daughter was killed in a mudslide, or swallowed up in > > dirt, > > > in New Mexico. It was terrifying, and the prose had a very light feeling > > in it > > > -- kind of like the cushion of air that supports an air hockey game. But > > I still > > > haven't gotten a handle on the poetry. I wonder if what you are saying > > about > > > words would somehow help me to do this. I can't separate the term "words" > > from > > > the term "language." Does Creeley do this somewhere? > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 16:37:19 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings and racism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I take Brent's point about the futility of looking for racism in everything. But i do think that evil in LOTR is most often associated with 'foreignness' and what used to be called 'savagery'. The evil 'hordes' most often resemble people/creatures from Africa and Asia. The Indian elephant riders are one example of this, and i find their appearance in the movie to be very disturbing. Hey, some of the bad guys are wearing TURBANS! And the walls of Orthanc are black, while the city of Minas Tirith is dove-white. But Tolkien was a conservative British author who wrote during the throes of the British Empire, so I think this is to be expected in his novels, and in order to do justice to them on the big screen, it might be necessary to leave all that stuff in. Other Western authors, such as Forster and Conrad, were doing the same thing a couple of decades earlier; if you think about it, even "Apocalypse Now" plays on these stereotypes, portraying the rural Viet Nam as a place of deep evil, with human heads everywhere. However, in Tolkien's defense I must point out that Gollum, the Steward of Gondor, and Sauron are all caucasian. And the Black Riders are unkillable ghosts of white kings. So evil is not just 'us and them,' but has the power to warp any person or creature to its desires. Tolkien also deserves credit for being a huge environmentalist. He portrays the cruel industrialist wizard Sauron overwhelmed by an army of trees. I think, on balance, the dark hordes in LOTR are almost forgivable in light of the glorious Ents. After watching the movie, I wrote a poem about it -- http://meaningless.com/home.asp?poem=hordes -- a little fictionalized by me and my own imagination, but at least it shows my sympathy for the poor elephants. -AB ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 16:48:54 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings and racism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > However, in Tolkien's defense I must point out that Gollum, the Steward of > Gondor, and Sauron are all caucasian. Sorry, I meant Saruman, not Sauron. However, Sauron was originally a white guy, the same fictional race as Gandalf and Saruman, before he became a Lidless Eye hovering over a tower. Also, I just remembered Wormtongue, an evil man of Rohan. I thought Brad Dourif did a great job with this role. -AB ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 15:26:22 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Berkson Subject: SWEET SINGER In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable available now from=20 Qua Books 211 Conanicus Avenue Jamestown, RI 02835 cwatson@quabooks.com [AND SOON FROM SPD & bookstores far & wide ] Bill Berkson THE SWEET SINGER OF MODERNISM & Other Art Writings 1985-2003 280 pp. Qua Books, December 2003 Cover image by Alex Katz. $20 ISBN 0-9708763-4-3 Essays on Wayne Thiebaud, Ronald Bladen, Philip Guston, Willem de Kooning, David Park, Jay DeFeo, Piero della Francesca, Albert York, Yvonne Jacquette= , Vija Celmins, Henry Wessel, Andy Warhol, Jackson Pollock, Franz Kline, Joan Mitchell, David Ireland, Hung Liu, Ed Ruscha, Doug Hall, Robert Arneson, Alex Katz, John Button, Carleton Watkins, Lee Friedlander, Martha Diamond, Ron Nagle, Hans Hofmann, Richard Shaw, George Herriman, Elaine de Kooning, Fairfield Porter, Elmer Bischoff -- and more. "Generously catholic in their enthusiasms, Bill Berkson=B9s seamless essays make every word count. All too many contemporary critics like to lecture. Berkson, affectionate and critical, is a gifted storyteller who wants to engage his readers. Putting his prose at the service of art he loves, he is a great unclich=E9d art writer. The essay on Piero alone is worth the price o= f admission." -- David Carrier. "Bill Berkson's Sweet Singer of Modernism is an indispensable text for anyone interested in late-twentieth-century culture. As a poet and critic o= f these times, as witness and intimate participant, Berkson writes out of his own taste and experience, but never about it. His devotion to the seriousness and importance of his subjects is the very essence of modesty and felicity. As a consequence, his most casual opinion bears the weight of thoughtful moral authority. This is a wonderful book." -- Dave Hickey. ------ End of Forwarded Message ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 15:43:41 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Cid Corman Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit A friend passed this on to me. I have no other details: Dear Friends of Cid Corman/Friends, Last night in Kyoto's Katsura Hospital, Cid underwent a 13 hour operation to repair heart damage and remedy other problems . . . I don't know all of the details, but from Shizumi know that his doctors have given him only a 30% chance of recovery. . . Shizumi asked me to pass on this simple wish to you all: "Please pray for Cid." She's home resting after a second night at the hospital, very much at her wit's end, as can be imagined, and quite exhausted, yet also heartened by how much love there is for them both. I will be in Kyoto the next days and will be in touch with news as there is news to share. In the meantime, if your situation permits, please, if possible, set aside some amount, however small, to help with the enormous costs the Cormans are now facing. Though I'm sure many of you will want to do this privately, I am working with Bob Arnold and Cynthia Archer to set up a website from which it will be easy to make a contribution. We expect to have that set up sometime early next week and will be in touch with that information as it is available. In love and hope, Chuck Sandy ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 18:54:31 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Haas Bianchi Subject: Re: civil unions, gay marriage, In-Reply-To: <2B7D9E32-3E36-11D8-8ABA-003065AC6058@sonic.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit why not accord the same rights to all people? Homosexuality is genetically predetermined like race and eye color, Homosexuals should receive every right secular law gives to married couples-- if churches want to bless only hetersexual unions that is their right, period RB > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of kari edwards > Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2004 3:46 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: civil unions, gay marriage, > > > it seems like the entire question is being missed... this in reality a > push by the religious right to have bush's constitutional amendment > banning "homosexual marriage" pass... and while I agree the marriage is > a outmode institution, I do not want to see those who would choose have > their rights taken away, by anyone!!. ... I do not care how who votes > for what on this silly christian right survey as long as their point is > subverted... as a matter fact i think it would be funny if a majority > of folks voted for "homosexual marriage".. or more so than those who > voted against it..... > > kari > > > On Saturday, January 3, 2004, at 12:16 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > > > In practice I of course agree, and I've put my money where my mouth > > is. In > > a better world I'd prefer that all civil marriages (of whoever) were > > civil > > unions and that the term marriage were restricted to religious > > ceremonies. > > That would at least remove some of the confusion around this issue, and > > gladden an old atheist's heart. > > > > It may be a bit much to expect most of the US voting public to > > understand > > that a word can have two meanings. > > > > Mark > > > > > > At 11:26 AM 1/3/2004 -0500, mbroder@nyc.rr.com wrote: > >> All of this ranting against organized religion is fine, but it's also > >> totally beside the point. When we > >> talk about "marriage" vs. "civil union" we are talking about whether > >> or not > >> same-sex couples > >> should be able to receive state-issued civil marriage licenses which > >> have > >> NOTHING to do with any > >> church. So, Craig and others, please get the legal concepts straight > >> and > >> stop saying NO to gay > >> marriage. We DO want marriage. We want civil marriage. We do not > >> want to > >> force any religious > >> institution to recognize or sanction any union that runs counter to > >> their > >> religious principles. > >> > >> Michael > >> > >> Original Message: > >> ----------------- > >> From: Craig Allen Conrad CAConrad9@AOL.COM > >> Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2004 05:58:00 -0500 (EST) > >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >> Subject: civil unions YES, gay marriage NO, and my argument WHY > >> > >> > >> i'm bringing this up because the gay marriage poll has popped up here. > >> > >> and i've been FLOODED with e-mails about this from friends and family > >> and > >> some boyfriends whose last names i've long forgotten. > >> > >> but to be honest with you, no way. there's no way in hell i'd ever > >> support > >> gay marriage. civil unions are of course fine. civil unions give > >> queers > >> all > >> we'd need to feel confident that when a lover dies, the homophobic > >> parents > >> can't clear out the bank account and take all the photographs etc., > >> and > >> kick us to > >> the street. > >> > >> but marriage? the church? and the hundreds of years with the > >> hundreds of > >> thousands tortured and put to death? > >> > >> i met an Italian man involved with a queer task force in Rome. he > >> says that > >> EVERY TIME the pope makes one of his ridiculous speeches denouncing > >> gay > >> marriage or gay adoption, that gay bashing goes through the roof over > >> there! > >> > >> i've heard the argument over and over about changing it from within. > >> but > >> why? by the time you'd get finished changing it it wouldn't exist > >> anymore > >> anyway! > >> > >> my experience has been that when queers get in touch with their > >> loving Jesus > >> that all kinds of nasty things pimple out of them. sexism in > >> particular, > >> for > >> instance. there are so many books written about queers coming "back" > >> to the > >> church, as though they had ever been allowed in. and one of the BEST > >> examples > >> of the WORST kind of behavior i'm talking about happened when i was > >> working > >> at > >> a queer bookstore and had to introduce authors. this one guy had > >> written a > >> book about spiritual warriors, or something. it's a dark story about > >> his > >> born > >> again family LITERALLY telling him that even if he killed himself > >> there'd be > >> no possible hope of them shedding a tear. that's actually a letter > >> in the > >> book, from his mother. > >> > >> the room was filled with about 50 white guys just like the author. > >> over and > >> over there were tears shed, these guys saying that they've accepted > >> Jesus as > >> their savior but the church won't let them! huh? anyway, the whole > >> thing > >> just > >> made me insane. and at Q&A, one of these born-again-wannabees wiped > >> his > >> cheeks of tears and asked our brave author if "we need to be worried > >> about > >> the > >> Promise Keepers." the author said, literally, "No, they're only > >> interested > >> in > >> hurting women's rights." what?!!! no one even FLINCHED when he said > >> that. > >> so > >> i raised my hand, and said, "yeah but, aren't LESBIANS women!? and > >> aren't > >> THEY part of the gay and LESBIAN community? and furthermore, don't > >> we all > >> realize that there would have NEVER been a gay and LESBIAN movement > >> without > >> the > >> women's movement?" because, hey, there were a LOT of lesbians in the > >> women's > >> movement, and THEY were the ones busting their asses politically > >> later for > >> gay > >> rights. some men also, but not at first and never as tenaciously, at > >> least > >> not > >> until AIDS and ACT UP, or until a gay porn shop or movie house was > >> being > >> threatened by a city councilman looking for reelection. of course, > >> it's > >> mostly > >> wealthier white gay men who are suddenly in charge of everything in > >> the > >> queer > >> community now (who are shedding just as many tears about not being > >> loved by > >> the > >> Republican Party, but that's another story for another time). (in > >> many > >> ways, > >> similar ways, it always boils down to privilege, and who would have > >> it IF > >> ONLY > >> they were straight.) > >> > >> anyway, i know that that's just one example. and i know there are > >> PLENTY of > >> wonderful people who are christians and jews and all that. i'm > >> really not > >> being a jerk saying that all people who go to church are evil. i > >> just can't > >> STAND the idea of standing on all those graves in the name of > >> assimilation. > >> our > >> bodies and desires have been controlled and mutated and destroyed for > >> too > >> many > >> years to let them give the blessing, ever. fuck their blessing and > >> fuck gay > >> marriage! > >> > >> i just don't want the church to be allowed to look THAT good, ever. > >> > >> let's not forget that gay men were first called faggots during the > >> Inquisition because so many of them were burned at the stake under > >> the feet > >> of women > >> (there was a belief that a witch could not burn by sticks "faggots" > >> alone) > >> that > >> these men became synonymous with the burning sticks. Joan of Arc had > >> several > >> gay men working with her (who were also put to death, although i > >> believe > >> they > >> were hanged), as did many wise women of the age who were caught, and > >> burned > >> alive. poet Judy Grahn has a good book about it called ANOTHER MOTHER > >> TONGUE. > >> > >> so think about this when taking the poll. there's a box for civil > >> union, > >> not > >> as popular as the gay marriage box it seems. > >> > >> CAConrad > >> > >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> mail2web - Check your email from the web at > >> http://mail2web.com/ . > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 20:01:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Paolo Javier Subject: The Emperor's New Clothes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hey All: I recently discovered the following incredible images of declassified U.S. documents re the govt plans with Cuba. Amazingly enough, this phat hip-hop rag, 'Pound', out of Toronto, supplied the link.... Click on the ff when you get a chance, then go to page 2. Scary stuff... http://emperors-clothes.com/images/north-i.htm (click to page 2) best, P. ps. Anyone else stumble across this site before? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 20:58:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: civil unions, gay marriage, In-Reply-To: <2B7D9E32-3E36-11D8-8ABA-003065AC6058@sonic.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit { it seems like the entire question is being missed... this in reality a { push by the religious right to have bush's constitutional amendment { banning "homosexual marriage" pass... Nah, I think that from the Bushies' pov the question is how best to split the opposition. The marriage issue might well be as good as any. Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard@earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard The Sonnet Project: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/The%20Sonnet%20Project.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 18:12:08 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Horizontal & Vertical: Walking Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit New title piece de blog. http://stephenvincent.durationpress.com As always, your comments appreciated. Et, Happy New Year to All! Stephen Vincent ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 18:59:43 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: alexander saliby Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings and racism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On David Larsen's points, I have this to ask: But is this racist, David? =20 Your argument supports the issue of explanation for the cause of war = between the two factions, e.g. the elephant-warrior had just cause for = taking up the fight, but again, is that racism or is that justice at = play...those feeling they have been wronged taking up their swords = against those whom they feel are guilty of wronging them? =20 When, Turkish troops launched their attacks on the kit and kin of = William Saroyan, basically, two white tribes involved in an ancient = tribal war, was that an act of racism? Or, when the Rwandan, Juvenal = Kajelijeli tried to eradicate the Tutsis in his homeland, two African = tribes (black on black if you insist) who have fought each other for = countless generations, was that racism? =20 I could go on with other examples, Albania/Kosovo, Germany in WWII, etc. = , but I think I've made my point. Black versus white has no substance = in symbolism as a "racial" issue. =20 Symbolically, white is light; white is the sun; white is the presence of = information...we can see it so we know what it is, so we can love and = respect it. White is the presence of knowledge and that equates to no = fear; nothing to fear equates to goodness.=20 And symbolically, black, on the other hand is darkness. Black is the = color of the sky at night, the absence of light; black is the unknown = and the unknown is that which people fear. And that which people fear = is an enemy of the people. Black is evil! In actuality, the origins of the Good is White, the Bad (evil) is Black, = symbolism has nothing to do with race or with skin color or with = culture...all ancient societies feared the unknown and built enormous = explanations/myths attempting to explain their fears. The issue that = black versus white is a "racist" issue is an invention of our modern, = American and Western European cultures (and let's not argue "Deservedly = so" at this point). =20 Tell me that you are bored with reading or viewing films depicting the = traditional symbols, and I'll jump into the fray by your side and join = you in fighting for change. Tell me those symbols are racist, and I = think I'll accuse you of failure to do your homework; worse, I may = accuse you of having been duped by the media into the race versus race = fray. =20 Alex =20 ---- Original Message -----=20 From: David Larsen=20 To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=20 Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2004 10:10 AM Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings and racism At 04:52 PM 12/31/03 -0500, Paolo Javier wrote: > here is a quote from the character of Legolas early on in ROTK that > truly made my stomach turn: "Something stirs IN THE EAST. A = sleepless > malice..." the film offers just the kind of imagery & rhetoric our = world > needs now, huh? True enough, all the foregoing about the orientalism of LOTR. (And I'm = glad to find that others feel the discussion worth continuing.) Scratch the heroic quest narrative and LOTR is nothing but European race-fantasy = from end to end. A lot like Europe, in other words. If you look at a map of Middle Earth you'll notice that all the action takes place at the northeastern corner of what is presumably a much larger mass of land, = where the southerners are very clearly said (by Gollum in T2T) to have "dark faces." In this connection may be useful to recall that the earliest = years of Tolkien's life were spent in South Africa. I had an opportunity to watch the extended DVD of T2T over the = holidays, and can report on some material which did not make it into the = theatrical version. After the first engagement between Gondor and the = elephant-troops of Far Harad, Faramir gives a moving speech on the plight of the southerners as the camera plays over the unveiled face of a VERY = handsome dead elephant-warrior. Also fleshed out is the predicament of the hill-tribes who give their allegiance to Saruman: they've been pushed = out by the empires of Gondor and Rohan, basically, and have perfectly understandable grounds for resentment. But these are just palliatives = at best. Peter Jackson is our Wagner, and he knows it. The timing of Gulf = War II (unsubtly exploited by the film's advertisers) only makes it more dreadfully obvious. If you're looking for a "villain" here I would = name Tolkien himself --him and the millions of devoted readers whose = appetite for primordial race-fantasy he so winningly answered. Number me among = them, but with an asterisk please LRSN ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 00:31:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: 9 images + exec summary ian m. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII 9 images + exec summary ian m. i write poems. my work is perfect. image. my work has my work is perfect. nietzsche look at nijinsky. nietzsche. nietzsche-nijinsky. nietzsche. nijinsky talks to me. the stove setter was here today. http://www.asondheim.org/filter1.png http://www.asondheim.org/filter2.png there is nothing without filter. http://www.asondheim.org/en [1-7] .jpg tokyo12 there is nothing without other _ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 00:41:03 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: the new songs of longing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII the new songs of longing an : other beyond < = > x the longing new songs of a geisha for each slows year but not forever petals fall and time lapse memory grows longer nothing disappearance catches up with winters global our air dried eyes haunted i forgotten am as speaking is last page book wind and ash losing sun all suns every star to someone lovely look sky into sky, an : other an beyond other < other = < > = x > : x the longing new the songs new of songs a of geisha a longing geisha for longing each slows year each but year not but forever not petals forever fall petals and fall time and slows time lapse the memory of grows memory longer grows nothing disappearance catches nothing up catches with up winters with global and disappearance global our air dried our eyes dried haunted and air haunted i forgotten am i forgotten am as forgotten speaking as is speaking last the page last book last wind and ash book losing the sun the all of suns all every longing star every to sun someone to lovely someone look sky into look sky, the sky an other beyond an other < = > x beyond x : the new songs of a geisha longing for longing each year but not forever petals fall and time slows the lapse of memory grows longer and longer nothing catches up with winters and global disappearance our dried eyes and haunted air i am forgotten as speaking is forgotten the last page of the last book wind and ash the losing of the sun and the losing of all suns every star a sun to someone lovely and longing look into the sky, into the sky x < x < x < x < x _ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 21:49:14 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Larsen Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings and racism In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 06:59 PM 1/3/04 -0800, alexander saliby wrote: >On David Larsen's points, I have this to ask: > >But is this racist, David? Notice that I said "race-fantasy" and not "racist." Call it what you will, LOTR is mainly about race. In its broadest sweep, it's the story of how the race of men rose to pre-eminence over the elves, dwarves and other vanished races. Each race is given its mythical origin, language, physiognomy etc. setting it apart from the others. Some races are clearly subaltern, hobbits for one. The orcs appear bound to a life of perpetual military servitude; dwarves (as in the real world) are doomed to serve as comic relief. Is LOTR's mobilization of these categories racist? For that we'd need a more precise definition of "racist," and that sounds like a lot of work right now so I'm going to leave your question hanging. >Tell me that you are bored with reading or viewing films depicting the >traditional symbols, and I'll jump into the fray by your side and join you >in fighting for change. No, I'm quite fascinated by the symbols, traditional and otherwise. But let's fight side by side anyway LRSN ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 02:31:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: Boog City presents: above/ground press and Major Matt Mason U.S.A., Thursday Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable please forward --------------- Boog City's Renegade Press Series This month=B9s featured press: above/ground press (Ottawa, Canada) Thurs. Jan. 8, 6 p.m., free Aca Galleries 529 W.20th St., 5th Flr. NYC Event will be hosted by above/ground press publisher and editor rob mclenna= n Featuring readings from: Stephen Brockwell=20 Clare Latremouille rob mclennan With music from Major Matt Mason U.S.A. There will be wine, cheese, and fruit, too. Curated and with an introduction by Boog City editor David Kirschenbaum Directions: C/E to 23rd St., 1/9 to 18th St. Venue is bet. 10th and 11th avenues http://www.track0.com/rob_mclennan/aboveground.htm http://olivejuicemusic.com/majormattmasonusa.html Next month: Chax Press (Tucson, Arizona), February 5 --=20 David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://boogcity.blog-city.com/ T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 09:58:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: explaining the urls (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 09:58:10 -0500 (EST) From: Alan Sondheim To: Cyb , "WRYTING-L : Writing and Theory across Disciplines" Subject: explaining the urls > Hi - this is an expression - the URLs are > > http://www.asondheim.org/en1.jpg through http://www.asondheim.org/en7.jpg > - > > sorry if it's confusing - Alan - > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 08:28:11 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Weishaus Subject: FW - Sad News MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2004 10:26 AM Subject: FW: FW - Sad News Some sad news this morning, from Cynthia Archer (widow of Will Petersen). She says, "On the sad front, did you know that Cid Corman is in the hospital after a major heart attack and had surgery yesterday. He has slim chances, so we are hoping his stubborn constitution wins out. If you know of anyone that would like to know that news, please send it on." ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 12:17:48 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Floodeditions@AOL.COM Subject: Graham Foust in Chicago Tribune MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear All: Graham Foust's AS IN EVERY DEAFNESS (Flood Editions, 2003) is reviewed by Maureen McLane in today's Chicago Tribune (along with titles by Christopher Logue, Jennifer Grotz, and David Kirby): http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/booksmags/chi-0401020026jan04,1,10565= 87 .story Relevant paragraphs: Graham Foust could hardly take more care in his first volume: "As in Every=20 Deafness" is a scarifying triumph of minimalism. In spare, etched lines (oft= en=20 only two or three words each), these poems track an intense white-out of=20 feeling--"Going/ of age/ in the hazy/ obscene" ("Heroin"). While the poems a= llude to=20 heroin and a generalized narcosis, they are anything but anodyne: Slim=20 columns of sly, mordant, lyric diagnoses, these poems are "my best meant/ sp= linter=20 said/ aloud," as Foust writes in "Meaning Won't Shine Like Flowers or Meat."= =20 There is no fuss here, no filler, no chat, no waste, no noise--just the icy=20 precision of a needle hitting home, or a splinter sliding below the skin, or= a=20 bell perfectly struck. Poet Susan Howe--herself a master of the minimalist=20 philosophical song--has compared Foust to William Bronk (a late master in th= is vein=20 too), but Foust, more than Bronk, has an acutely lacerating ear. Tiny rhymes= ,=20 assonance, alliteration and incremental repetitions create little miracles o= f=20 sound and fractured sense, as when he conjures a heart "coaxed into focus/ b= y=20 bloodier motors" in "Blest With a Daunting Irrelevance the Heart It," or whe= n=20 he envisions disaster in "There, There, There": "I'll estimate/ a forest,/=20 scream fire there." Kurt Cobain and John Berryman appear in this volume, but fortunately Foust=20 avoids trafficking in the cheap glamor of suicide and substance abuse. He is= an=20 anatomist and etiologist of damage: "Nothing is/ as clean/ as need," he=20 concludes "The General Desire." These are impressive forays into end-of-the-= line=20 lyric, bleak and wry dramas of blasted interiority in which a poem's "room"=20= (the=20 meaning of "stanza" in Italian) is blanked: "Each song is a room/ into which= =20 I'm not allowed" ("Is to be Sad, Is to be High"). If there is such a thing a= s=20 ghost poetry, along the lines of the ghost story, this may be it: "sing/ so=20= a=20 ghost's blind/ hope is sewn/ in-/ to his insistent/ skin," Foust incants in=20 "Against a Future Need." Foust writes a peculiar, compelling poetry of=20 annihilation, haunted bulletins from the abyss, though everywhere one hears=20= his shaping=20 mind at work. Copyright =A9 2003, Chicago Tribune=20 Order this book directly from the publisher=20 or from Small Press Distribution: www.spdbooks.org Flood Editions PO Box 3865 Chicago IL 60654-0865 www.floodeditions.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 21:04:29 +0100 Reply-To: magee@uni.lodz.pl Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Magee Subject: Warhol and Parts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "[F]or the first time in American history the forms, roles, and functions of 'literature,' of 'American' 'culture,' of 'documentary expression,' of 'modernism,' of the institutions of 'Art' were _fundamentally questioned, contested, and redefined in the public culture at large as well as in critical thought._ During the decade the most radical and wide-ranging works of (white) American modernism in literature appeared which, at the same time, laid bare its aesthetic and ideological presuppositions and inherent dialectic. The boundaries and approaches of the traditional disciplines in the humanities and the social sciences and their relationship to public discourse were challenged and revised. The crisis was answered by new experimental, often 'interdiscplinary' or strikingly 'impure' modes of writing and criticism and a new openness to alternative cultural expressive forms of ethnic or regional groups or of minorities." This paragraph is from a paper given at a 1988 Berlin Conference of the European Association of American Studies, published in _Looking Inward/Looking Outward: From the 1930s through the 1940s_, a title bearing the copyright of the Amerika Instituut, Amsterdam, 1990. If the authors of the works given as paradigms for the 'radical imagination,' Kenneth Burke, F.O. Matthiessen, Caroline Ware, Richard Wright, Zora Neale Hurston, Walker Evans and James Agee (one line quoted by the latter: "the cruel radiance of what is"), are surprising, at least from the perspective of what one reader might apply to a more recent past, or what another reader might apply to a future possibility that is only beginning to be imaginable, not to mention the perspective of another reader for whom the claim of a 'radical imagination' cannot be made for this period and its journalists, critics, novelists and poets, these and other possible responses to the disjunction between the discourse and its object provide a reminder that the view from outside may differ remarkably from received and accepted definitions within the culture being viewed, and even depart from a view that can be considered recognizable. It's the thought of the view not aligning at all with the conventional perspective, pressing the wish that the 'public mural' period (all those vast canvases from poets writing then) had a utopian ('some metaphor for the human') and expressive energy and drive which might still be salvageable, at least in translation. Though Gidal notes the "dangers of anti-modernist ultra-Leftism," he formulates his opposition with these words: "expressionism, neo-or otherwise, inculcates the imaginary self-identifications that materialism radically struggles against through its (historical) dialectic, the latter in terms of both the spectator's sexual and economic objectivity and, not always separable, individual subjectivities." (36). This definition arrives towards the end of a chapter which remembers Mike Dunford's 'autocritiques': "It was a product of my colonized consciousness and continues the process of colonization. I hope that nowadays you will criticize the film and ask the question 'whom does it serve and how?' I no longer make such films" (Arte Inglese Oggi 1960-1976, Milan, November 1975). (34). The shadow of the aspect of the 'show trial' dimension to disavowals is one matter (Gidal mentions that Dunford stopped making films for seven years), another is the reference in the 'Notes' to the potential for a militant, or ruthless (depending on the point of view) avant-garde made by quoting from a 1931 statement: "If the cinema is to survive it will only be through a few groups refusing to visit commerical kinos and working out their ideas, as Kuleshov did, on paper. They will have to be more avant-garde than the French in 1927, more cut off from equipment than the Russians after the revolution. They will have to attack the formula and not tolerate it; they must learn to walk out from pictures that however technically perfect are based upon false ideas. They will have to make scraps of film that every commercial producer would refuse and project them on kitchen walls before small groups determined to tear them to pieces." Bryher (Winnifred Ellerman), "The Hollywood code II", _Close Up_, December, 1931, London and Territet. Gidal concludes his chapter on Andy Warhol's _Kitchen_ (1965) by quoting from his own notes written for the London Filmmakers Co-op catalogue (1972) on 'Warhol's Couch (1964, silent)': "The most important of Warhol's early works. A nude woman on a couch tries to get a man's attention. The woman, Kate Heliczer, sucks Rufus' nipples. Gerard Malanga sucks Kate's cunt and asshole. Softcore love, sex avec le couch, et cetera. Later there's much banana eating, and lovemaking attemps man with man, and vice versa (?). Other men sit around, walk around, in and out of frame. The camera is stationary, framing the couch. The girl with enormous tits tries (vainly) to seduce a motorbike polisher, sweet-sweet nothing boy. People just sit around. Looking at one another. Looking at the camera, at Andy, at nowhere et cetera. Stillness. Movement as habit, as recurrence. No goals. Just there. (Et cetera). With Gerard Malanga, Piero Heliczer, Naomi Levine, Gregory Corso, Allen Ginsberg, John Palmer, Baby Jane Holzer, Ondine, Kerouac, and others, some dead, some alive." (60). In "the stare of Warhol" does the shock aesthetic of the machined stare arrive? "That is the place from which the stare is sited, no humanized self finally left." (61). It might also be remarked that neither is there any language left. The catalogue notice might itself invite questions about the extreme angles that once happened and how popular cultural history remembers them now, not to mention Gidal's willingness to include casual descriptions among his more formal theoretical prose. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 16:11:06 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Clements Subject: Calling Mark DuCharme In-Reply-To: <3FF871CD.7050600@hypobololemaioi.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark, Would you contact me backchannel regarding the review copy you sent recently? Many thanks, Brian Clements Sentence ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 17:18:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Calling Mark DuCharme In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >Mark, > >Would you contact me backchannel regarding the review copy you sent >recently? > >Many thanks, >Brian Clements >Sentence I'm not Mark, George -- George Bowering Vacuumed Bruce Wayne's Mansion 303 Fielden Ave. Port Colborne. ON, L3K 4T5 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 17:16:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: Calling Mark DuCharme In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit { I'm not Mark, { { George Why not? Hal ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 17:52:56 -0500 Reply-To: olsonjk@delhi.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kirby Olson Organization: SUNY Delhi Subject: Re: A political point of view, sorry. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Kirby Olson wrote: > I wanted to respond again to Timothy Lu's post. Unfortunately my > server wiped out 200 saved messages, including his and all the > responses to his, and so I will have to respond to memory. I think he > misread my post, as well as Haas Biachi's. It's hard to know why, > because I don't know him. > > I think he thought that I wanted all minorities to leave America or > something because I had said that the Finnish country was united. But > they are not united so much on the basis of race but as on the basis > of a common culture, and common beliefs. You can go to parties where > nobody says anything at all. You can just eat chips for two hours > with 10 other people, because since everybody more or less agrees on > things, there is no point in discussion. > > This is not a possibility for America. We have just inherited a > totally different situation. This is a country in which at least the > coastal cities such as NYC and Los Angeles are filled with all kinds > of different people. This makes for much more exciting cultural > experiences than is possible in most of Finland (Helsinki excepted). > > But it also makes for enormous cultural differences. The Democrats > are today a party of the marginals. Gays and black muslims share this > party. I present them at random. I could have chosen any two > marginal groups and shown where they do not overlap. And yet, my > point is that they don't share much of a common culture. In fact, I > would argue that a lesbian separatist and a black muslim male would > have almost no possibility of a conversation. I'm not arguing that > they should therefore be kicked out as I think that Lu thought that I > was, or that they should be beaten. > > This is too simplistic. What I'm arguing is that the Democrats have a > situation that is somewhat like that of Hotspur and his group against > Henry Vth. They were disunited. And in many ways they were the > multiculturals of their era. Hotspur from the north facing Owen > Glendower -- they didn't understand one another. i use Shakespeare > because I suppose that everybody interested in poetry has read at > least his more famous plays. > > And my question is, to what extent is this kind of diversification > that you see in Shakespeare's play also a kind of Balkanization with > the ultimate ethnic cleansing hovering behind it? > > Even in Amiri Baraka's Famous Poem, Who Blew Up America? there is a > fascinating line: > > "Who say Dahmer wasn't insane? > > Jeffrey Dahmer was a gay man who ate his partners in Milwaukee. The > line is politically incorrect, I think, because the line insinuates > something about white (gay) culture. Maybe I'm misreading the line -- > you can reread the poem at > > http://www.globalblacknews.com/Baraka.html > > The line is incendiary because it revisits a moment of embarrassment > to the gay culture. > > I don't see any other reason for the line to be there. My guess is > that Baraka doesn't accept gays. And in black culture generally this > is not news. Where are the gay bars of Harlem? If you are black and > gay, you have to leave Harlem, or you have to tiptoe. > > Meanwhile, in graduate school I encountered many lesbian separatists. > They simply hated men, and thought that if they no longer existed the > world would be a better place. They said as much in many seminars. > > This is quite a complex problem. Diversity apparently includes the > ability to be separatist. And yet how can separatists who are > mutually exclusive form a lasting coalition? Perhaps they can do so > only as long as the object of their mutual hatred survives. But what > happens after that? > > This is the question that I was asking for the Democrats. I think it > would take a genius to bring peoples of such distant coordinates into > a true unity of cooperation. Hotspur couldn't do it even for his much > less distant partners, even though he had some rhetorical skill. > Lincoln might have done it. There is an immense Balkanization going > on in the left. I don't see those fissures on the right. > > And if Shakespeare remains our best writer, the best mental mapper of > humanity, it implies defeat for the left. > > The one idea that I have had for bringing people together is in the > possibilities of urbanism. Surrealist urbanism, especially. Somehow > to forget about identity politics, which I think leads to division, > and to think less about the tribe, and more about the polis. More > about the aesthetics of cities. It's only a faint trace of an idea, > though. In other words, everybody in New York City loves Central > Park. So we have to find things that we can all love together, as > points of aesthetic union. It's just an inkling, but I wanted to > plant the seed of this kind of an idea. Where I think poetry can > still open a positive polis is via Charles Olson's Gloucester -- where > place becomes central, and his defense of the Portuguese and others, > and their right to be there, is presented as an aesthetic celebration > of their churches and so on. > > I've gotten to the boundary and as I look over all that I can see is > God. > > I'm not sure what else could bring people together, but then, I'm all > ears. > > -- Kirby > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 16:57:56 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Baghdad's Contemporary Visual Arts Society Comments: To: dreamtime@yahoogroups.com, WRYTING-L Disciplines Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Erik Ehn (by way of nick)" To: Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2004 2:32 PM Subject: [RAT] iraq Exerpts from a recent forward from Roberta Levitow - Dear Members of the Arts Community, As some of you know, my son, Adam Davidson is assigned to Baghdad as a journalist for the Public Radio program, Marketplace. In that capacity, he recently met Nizar A. Rawi, a graphic designer, art critic, and president of Baghdad's Contemporary Visual Arts Society (CVAS)-a loose association of over 250 visual and performing artists. I was very moved by Nizar and Ali's sense of isolation from the global art world (their knowledge of American theatre ends with Arthur Miller and Tennessee Williams). Both men fervently believe in the power of art to develop a "new vision of peace and unity for Iraq." During our conversation, Nizar and Ali listed simple ways in which individual artists and people connected to the arts can help CVAS as well as more comprehensive ways in which arts organizations can join together to help Iraqi artists on a larger scale. WHAT THEY ARE ASKING FOR Nizar's overriding request from the United States arts community is communication, information, education, and opportunities for cultural exchange. His wish list includes requests that can be filled both on an individual and an organizational level: Individuals 1. Books, periodicals, CDs, and tapes (PAL, DVD, or VCD format only) of and about contemporary art of all genres. (See shipping address under Contact Information below.) 2. Correspondence with individual artists and people connected to the arts in all genres. 3. Money. Nizar didn't request money. My son did. He wrote me, "CVAS could use it to set up internet access, develop their library, pay for their ongoing in-school training, buy arts materials, help fund the play they're producing next month, etc. Their need is so comprehensive that one paintbrush would be great." Organizations If you or your organization is interested in initiating or participating in any of the following initiatives, please contact me. I will serve as point person so that I can coordinate the many responses. 1. An exhibition in the United States of CVAS artists' work after the war. 2. A joint exhibition 3. Scholarships for CVAS members to study art in the United States. 4. Visiting delegation of Iraqi artists who would come to the United States to immerse themselves in the contemporary art world by meeting artists individually and as a group, attending exhibitions, performances, and rehearsals, visiting studios, etc. CONTACT INFORMATION: To mail books, CDs and tapes - use domestic postage rates for package to: Sinclair Cornell Media Advisor CPA (USAID/IRAQ) OTI APO AE 09335 To contact CVAS directly and to begin a correspondence with an Iraqi artist: Immediately: Ali Sada - ali@iraqartists.org In a few weeks once his Internet connection is set up: Nizar Rawi - nizar@iraqartists.org To contact Aviva Davidson at Dancing in the Streets regarding organizational initiatives: Aviva Davidson Executive Director and Producer Dancing in the Streets 55 Avenue of the Americas Suite 310 New York, NY 10013 Adavidson@dancinginthestreets.org Subject: Iraq Artists Tel: 212-625-3505 Fax: 212-625-3510 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 16:55:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: charles alexander Subject: Re: Creeley? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I sent this directly to Kirby, and he asked me to pass it on to the list. Charles Alexander NAMES Harry has written all he knows. Miriam tells her thought, Peter says again his mind. Robert and John, William, Tom, and Helen, Ethel, that woman whose name he can't remember or she even him says to tell all they know. In a way what sends one's socks off are just that creeley's poems can be so simple, and so confounding, and yet so meaningful, too.Take him literally here, and as unfolding. So here are the names. The first statement is simple, yet so altogether impossible and final, that it's rather amazing. It also sets up a subject-verb pattern, following "Harry has written" with "Miriam tells" and there you have writing and speech, one final, one unfolding as it happens. Then there's the way what she tells is "her thought" and you have that distance between conception and utterance, but you also have that name, "Peter" that seems to function as the definition of "her thought" but then, in the process of the poem this is denied, and Peter is another name or human who is embarking on an action, here like "tells" but it's "says" and it is happening "again" bringing in the notion that we always repeat who we are, repeat our minds as "Peter / says again / his mind." Then a whole string of names, ending in a unit who doesn't even have a name, so that these very specific names get lost in "woman" or get lost as part of what one might call the human, because after that we have a "he" who can't be defined, also a "she," a "him" and a "they." So that, in the acts of language, identity, which seems to be specific, becomes communal, in those amazing final four lines where the "again" can't be remembered, and the "him" may be what "she" says, or it may be to whom she says it, and in a way the "they" becomes all of us. So there seems to be a social and psychological statement or statements going on, all through these names and simple acts. Maybe this isn't much to you, but to me it is a poem that knocks my socks off. It's also one I can keep coming back to and seeing different objects of verbs and objects of prepositions, and reading in different ways, so it stays alive. Anselm and Andre are right. I hope this helps! charles charles alexander / chax press fold the book inside the book keep it open always read from the inside out speak then ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 19:37:16 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: tom bell Subject: Re: Creeley? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks, Charles. It doesn't really answer the names/language conundrum but thanks for he insight. tom bell ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 19:11:31 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: A political point of view, sorry. Comments: To: olsonjk@delhi.edu In-Reply-To: <3FF89948.E1FEC6DC@delhi.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 5:52 PM -0500 1/4/04, Kirby Olson wrote: >Kirby Olson wrote: > > >... You can go to parties [in finlqne] where > > nobody says anything at all. You can just eat chips for two hours >> with 10 other people, because since everybody more or less agrees on > > things, there is no point in discussion. sounds like a bad minnesota anecdote. too much homogeneity isn't too good; it breeds complacency. one could have said the same about denmark some years ago; they thought they were the most tolerant, wonderful, peaceable, non-racist people in the world, based on their dramatic mass-organized rescue of "their" Jews in WWII, which was in fact a thrilling and wonderful thing. when the euphemistically named dark-skinned and often muslim "guest-workers" arrived in the early 1970s --to do work no one else particularly wanted to do --danes had to confront the limits of their complacency and deal with difference. they didn't turn into violent monsters, but i did hear my sweet little country-folks aunts and uncles say xenophobic things i never would have expected, and that in the US would definitely have the familiar flavor of liberal racism. as for lutheranism as a uplifting uniting element, the third reich was at least nominally lutheran. as for lord of the rings' racialism, what did you (not you, kirby, the rhetorical you) expect? most of these ersatz mythic tomes have a racialist orientation (so to speak); i remember reading the first few paragraphs of the much-touted Clan of the Cave Bear some decades ago and recognizing instantly the blond, blue-eyed, obviously-born-to-lead-the-rest paradigm. so much for that bit of treacle. star wars, same thing. lord of the flies might be a good text to read against lord of the rings. or the nat'l lampoon's bored of the rings, featuring dildo baggins et al. -- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 20:15:44 -0500 Reply-To: mbroder@nyc.rr.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Broder Organization: Michael Broder Subject: Re: civil unions YES, gay marriage NO, and my argument WHY In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20040103121236.01decfd0@mail.earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There was actually a great op-ed piece in the Boston Globe on Saturday by the executive director of the Log Cabin Republicans, a gay advocacy group, that explained the issue very clearly. We need more public education around this issue and I have to say this is one area where conservative gay groups can probably step up and do a lot of good. Michael -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Mark Weiss Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2004 3:17 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: civil unions YES, gay marriage NO, and my argument WHY In practice I of course agree, and I've put my money where my mouth is. In a better world I'd prefer that all civil marriages (of whoever) were civil unions and that the term marriage were restricted to religious ceremonies. That would at least remove some of the confusion around this issue, and gladden an old atheist's heart. It may be a bit much to expect most of the US voting public to understand that a word can have two meanings. Mark At 11:26 AM 1/3/2004 -0500, mbroder@nyc.rr.com wrote: >All of this ranting against organized religion is fine, but it's also >totally beside the point. When we >talk about "marriage" vs. "civil union" we are talking about whether or not >same-sex couples >should be able to receive state-issued civil marriage licenses which have >NOTHING to do with any >church. So, Craig and others, please get the legal concepts straight and >stop saying NO to gay >marriage. We DO want marriage. We want civil marriage. We do not want to >force any religious >institution to recognize or sanction any union that runs counter to their >religious principles. > >Michael > >Original Message: >----------------- >From: Craig Allen Conrad CAConrad9@AOL.COM >Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2004 05:58:00 -0500 (EST) >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: civil unions YES, gay marriage NO, and my argument WHY > > >i'm bringing this up because the gay marriage poll has popped up here. > >and i've been FLOODED with e-mails about this from friends and family and >some boyfriends whose last names i've long forgotten. > >but to be honest with you, no way. there's no way in hell i'd ever support >gay marriage. civil unions are of course fine. civil unions give queers >all >we'd need to feel confident that when a lover dies, the homophobic parents >can't clear out the bank account and take all the photographs etc., and >kick us to >the street. > >but marriage? the church? and the hundreds of years with the hundreds of >thousands tortured and put to death? > >i met an Italian man involved with a queer task force in Rome. he says that >EVERY TIME the pope makes one of his ridiculous speeches denouncing gay >marriage or gay adoption, that gay bashing goes through the roof over there! > >i've heard the argument over and over about changing it from within. but >why? by the time you'd get finished changing it it wouldn't exist anymore >anyway! > >my experience has been that when queers get in touch with their loving Jesus >that all kinds of nasty things pimple out of them. sexism in particular, >for >instance. there are so many books written about queers coming "back" to the >church, as though they had ever been allowed in. and one of the BEST >examples >of the WORST kind of behavior i'm talking about happened when i was working >at >a queer bookstore and had to introduce authors. this one guy had written a >book about spiritual warriors, or something. it's a dark story about his >born >again family LITERALLY telling him that even if he killed himself there'd be >no possible hope of them shedding a tear. that's actually a letter in the >book, from his mother. > >the room was filled with about 50 white guys just like the author. over and >over there were tears shed, these guys saying that they've accepted Jesus as >their savior but the church won't let them! huh? anyway, the whole thing >just >made me insane. and at Q&A, one of these born-again-wannabees wiped his >cheeks of tears and asked our brave author if "we need to be worried about >the >Promise Keepers." the author said, literally, "No, they're only interested >in >hurting women's rights." what?!!! no one even FLINCHED when he said that. >so >i raised my hand, and said, "yeah but, aren't LESBIANS women!? and aren't >THEY part of the gay and LESBIAN community? and furthermore, don't we all >realize that there would have NEVER been a gay and LESBIAN movement without >the >women's movement?" because, hey, there were a LOT of lesbians in the >women's >movement, and THEY were the ones busting their asses politically later for >gay >rights. some men also, but not at first and never as tenaciously, at least >not >until AIDS and ACT UP, or until a gay porn shop or movie house was being >threatened by a city councilman looking for reelection. of course, it's >mostly >wealthier white gay men who are suddenly in charge of everything in the >queer >community now (who are shedding just as many tears about not being loved by >the >Republican Party, but that's another story for another time). (in many >ways, >similar ways, it always boils down to privilege, and who would have it IF >ONLY >they were straight.) > >anyway, i know that that's just one example. and i know there are PLENTY of >wonderful people who are christians and jews and all that. i'm really not >being a jerk saying that all people who go to church are evil. i just can't >STAND the idea of standing on all those graves in the name of assimilation. >our >bodies and desires have been controlled and mutated and destroyed for too >many >years to let them give the blessing, ever. fuck their blessing and fuck gay >marriage! > >i just don't want the church to be allowed to look THAT good, ever. > >let's not forget that gay men were first called faggots during the >Inquisition because so many of them were burned at the stake under the feet >of women >(there was a belief that a witch could not burn by sticks "faggots" alone) >that >these men became synonymous with the burning sticks. Joan of Arc had >several >gay men working with her (who were also put to death, although i believe >they >were hanged), as did many wise women of the age who were caught, and burned >alive. poet Judy Grahn has a good book about it called ANOTHER MOTHER >TONGUE. > >so think about this when taking the poll. there's a box for civil union, >not >as popular as the gay marriage box it seems. > >CAConrad > >-------------------------------------------------------------------- >mail2web - Check your email from the web at >http://mail2web.com/ . ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 21:51:15 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: Readings @ City Museum - Kent Johnson and Dale Smith MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Readings @ City Museum is pleased to present KENT JOHNSON, Executor of the Araki Yasusada translations http://jacketmagazine.com/bio/yasu.html and DALE SMITH, editor of Skanky Possum Magazine http://www.skankypossum.com/pubs.htm This Saturday Night, Jan 10, 2004, @ 8 p.m. Beatnik Bob's Theater 701 North 15th Street, St. Louis MO Museum admission - $5 - Stay & play till 1 AM! The Series Roster is Here: http://belz.net/readings/ For more info, email Aaron Belz - aaron@belz.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 21:12:02 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: Calling Mark DuCharme Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >From: Halvard Johnson >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: Calling Mark DuCharme >Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 17:16:43 -0500 > >{ I'm not Mark, >{ >{ George > >Why not? > >Hal Why indeed? Mark <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Carelessness of heart is a virtue akin to the small lights of the stars. But it is sad to see virtues in those who have not the gift of the imagination to value them." —William Carlos Williams _________________________________________________________________ Enjoy a special introductory offer for dial-up Internet access — limited time only! http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 22:29:19 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: open letter to Michael Atkinson MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here is an open letter i sent to "The Believer" re: Michael Atkinson's recent article on the Yasusada affair. Cheers, Aaron + + + + + + + Dear Michael Atkinson, I generally agree with everything you say about the direction of our literary culture in your recent article, "Hyperauthor! Hyperauthor!" It seems to me important to know who wrote a given essay, play, novel, or poem. Like you, I don't buy into the deconstructed author or the abstracted text, at least not in the total form that it has been presented by the likes of Barthes and Foucault. When I'm reading a Roald Dahl book to my kids at bedtime, "The Death of the Author" strikes me as a lot of theoretical gamesmanship. However, the way you lay into Kent Johnson, calling him a "gold-bricker" and a purveyor of "pure cock-and-bull," seems a little naive. The trust you accuse Johnson of betraying didn't really exist in 1996, at least not in as pristine a form as you imply, and it doesn't really exist today. There's a good chance it didn't even exist in Shakespeare's time. Who wrote the footnotes and dedicatory epistle to Spenser's "Shepheardes Calender"? One doesn't have to swear by Foucault to recognize that "E.K." was certainly Spenser himself, though he never declared the fiction. And how does one read Chaucer's notorious "retraction"? That short bit of writing would seem to throw his whole canon in jeopardy. Chaucer, in a final brilliant stroke, proves himself even more radically artful than the tales themselves reveal. Or does he? As preoccupied with "entent" as he is, Chaucer engenders multiple interpretive possibilities. In contemporary literature other examples abound. Philip Levine, by his own private confession, dressed his autobiographical _Bread of Time_ in untruths--or emotional truths that are not completely factual. And yet the book gives the impression of being a non-fictional account of the poet's personal history. David Eggers made up portions of _Heartbreaking Work of Staggering Genius_, yet never provides a caveat. How is the reader to discriminate between fact and exaggeration in contemporary non-fiction? Is ascribing one's own real identity to a false work any less unethical than ascribing a false identity to a real work? At the very least, Kent Johnson's art should be taken seriously, not written off as a MacGuffin. What he has done with Yasusada is play according to rules handed down to him by some of the most revered critics of the 20th century. You are entitled to disagree with their conclusions just as you are entitled to disdain Johnson's cubic zirconia text. But I believe he embodies postmodern authorship in all earnestness, not as the cackling narcissist you portray. In the end, isn't all art essentially trompe l'oeil. We struggle to teach a reality-TV jaded generation that fiction is not a lie; it is, in its own sense, true. The Yasusada poetry, no matter how many editors felt duped or expressed outrage, represents a true answer to questions not only raised by Barthes and Foucault, but implied by media culture. Furthermore, it is not theoretical -- it really is beautiful art. Aaron Belz St. Louis, MO ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 22:45:34 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Haas Bianchi Subject: Re: A political point of view, sorry. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit go Maria go yes Dildo Baggins is the cure-- > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Maria Damon > Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 7:12 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: A political point of view, sorry. > > > At 5:52 PM -0500 1/4/04, Kirby Olson wrote: > >Kirby Olson wrote: > > > > >... You can go to parties [in finlqne] where > > > nobody says anything at all. You can just eat chips for two hours > >> with 10 other people, because since everybody more or less agrees on > > > things, there is no point in discussion. > > > sounds like a bad minnesota anecdote. too much homogeneity isn't too > good; it breeds complacency. one could have said the same about > denmark some years ago; they thought they were the most tolerant, > wonderful, peaceable, non-racist people in the world, based on their > dramatic mass-organized rescue of "their" Jews in WWII, which was in > fact a thrilling and wonderful thing. when the euphemistically named > dark-skinned and often muslim "guest-workers" arrived in the early > 1970s --to do work no one else particularly wanted to do --danes had > to confront the limits of their complacency and deal with difference. > they didn't turn into violent monsters, but i did hear my sweet > little country-folks aunts and uncles say xenophobic things i never > would have expected, and that in the US would definitely have the > familiar flavor of liberal racism. as for lutheranism as a uplifting > uniting element, the third reich was at least nominally lutheran. as > for lord of the rings' racialism, what did you (not you, kirby, the > rhetorical you) expect? most of these ersatz mythic tomes have a > racialist orientation (so to speak); i remember reading the first few > paragraphs of the much-touted Clan of the Cave Bear some decades ago > and recognizing instantly the blond, blue-eyed, > obviously-born-to-lead-the-rest paradigm. so much for that bit of > treacle. star wars, same thing. lord of the flies might be a good > text to read against lord of the rings. or the nat'l lampoon's bored > of the rings, featuring dildo baggins et al. > > > -- > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 00:14:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII etc. k11% enter k18% k12% null set command k13% enter k12% k14% etc. k15% etc. k16% waiting k17% sleep k18% sleep seconds into the future the valiant eight charging to sleep at the battle of times' dismal loss processes stalled and interval spreading beyond sight and sound at a similar loss to a similar cost as the heroes are lost as the valley collapses in firsts and in seconds the future's behind us, the past always beckons ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 05:30:10 -0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "david.bircumshaw" Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings and racism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit That's interesting, David, and chimes much with what I'm trying to work out myself about whether LOTR is 'racist'. My current thinking is that it is unconsciously so, even innocently, unlike the clearly racist film of Gone with the Wind. Tolkien, although a Brummie, spent the first two years of his life in South Africa, as his dad was on secondment over there. I imagine that he never took in the realities of racial subordination at such an early age, Birmingham, where he came back to, for all its ugliness, is not a place where racism thrives, it is in fact a city built by immigrants, much on the US mode, that's why we can produce characters like Benjamin Zephaniah, a good Brummie, even though he lives in London now, I just don't go no further than Leicester now. I was listening the other day with fascination to a radio interview with Francois Pieenar the former captain of the Springboks who won the World Cup in 1995. He was a marvel to listen to - he knew nothing about the realities of apartheid despite coming from a middle-class background, there was a black maidservant but, as he said, he didn't realise she was there, until he went to university and he was opened to questions other than those of sport, the result was that he became and remains a passionate supporter of anti-racism and a devotee of 'madeeba'. It's good to hear such voices. Anyhow, if Tolkien implies the servants, massa, maybe he hadn't realised they were there! Best Dave David Bircumshaw Spectare's Web, A Chide's Alphabet & Painting Without Numbers http://www.chidesalphabet.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Larsen" To: Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 5:49 AM Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings and racism At 06:59 PM 1/3/04 -0800, alexander saliby wrote: >On David Larsen's points, I have this to ask: > >But is this racist, David? Notice that I said "race-fantasy" and not "racist." Call it what you will, LOTR is mainly about race. In its broadest sweep, it's the story of how the race of men rose to pre-eminence over the elves, dwarves and other vanished races. Each race is given its mythical origin, language, physiognomy etc. setting it apart from the others. Some races are clearly subaltern, hobbits for one. The orcs appear bound to a life of perpetual military servitude; dwarves (as in the real world) are doomed to serve as comic relief. Is LOTR's mobilization of these categories racist? For that we'd need a more precise definition of "racist," and that sounds like a lot of work right now so I'm going to leave your question hanging. >Tell me that you are bored with reading or viewing films depicting the >traditional symbols, and I'll jump into the fray by your side and join you >in fighting for change. No, I'm quite fascinated by the symbols, traditional and otherwise. But let's fight side by side anyway LRSN ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 21:42:14 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Derek R Organization: derekrogerson.com Subject: ~ rainbow panties ~ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit HELO MY DEAR, Do not be surprise about this distress call or about who is writing to you I am Kofi Mazuri from Angola ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 22:06:24 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Derek R Organization: derekrogerson.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit everything is fine In heaven everything's alright In heaven ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 15:13:22 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ben Basan In-Reply-To: <000301c3d352$1100a5e0$5c016ace@satellite> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 1/5/04 3:06 PM, "Derek R" wrote: > > everything is fine In heaven > everything's alright In heaven > everything's in heaven alright ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 01:37:27 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Matt Keenan Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings and racism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If I may intrude so late in the discussion... I saw ROTK recently and rewatched TFOTR. I think Tolkien writes obviously of a time when there wasn't a question at all of there being races per se, as we know it today, or at least he was trying to write that way in my opinion. In fact, perhaps, for Tolkien, men, dwarves, elves, etc. were totally different species, am I right? "You," whether "you" were a dwarf, elf or Orc thought "you" were the only species, or at least, in terms of many "primitive" cultures, "you" thought that "you" were "THE People." Consequently, "they," the others, were not people. Sounds racist? (That depends on what you mean by race.) In other words, similar to what a previous post said with respect to that South African who wasn't aware of the black maid, Orcs, dwarves, hobbits, etc. were only aware of each other in terms of fear and ignorance. (We no longer have the "luxury" to think in those terms.) Wasn't it a better world in a way? when the world was much smaller as in the shire being surrounded by vast unknown spaces and it was a fantastic feat to travel (and this is emphasized more by Tolkien when he has a lowly hobbit as a great traveller). In fact, it's a cliche almost that the world is smaller nowadays. It's both small and big, just like it was for Frodo and Bilbo. However, the danger lies in the person who sits in front of the TV and reads the local newspaper and doesn't travel and thus his world is no longer illimitable but bounded. Frodo and Bilbo had the advantage of having no TV and newspapers, and for that matter they wrote their own books! If we could only be humble in our ignorance of others if indeed that's possible in this world of signs and symbols. It's almost an impossibility I think. For example, Who can tell me if the average person does initially conceive of Africa as a land of lions and giraffes and elephants on the plains? If the answer is yes, then is that ignorance? If only the glowing boob tube was just as indicative of danger nearby as Bilbo's Sting when an Orc approached. Matt ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 06:55:42 -0500 Reply-To: ron.silliman@gte.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Subject: Silliman's blog Comments: To: WOM-PO , BRITISH-POETS@JISCMAIL.AC.UK, nanders1@swarthmore.edu, new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu, whpoets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ Dickinson =96 Niedecker =96 Armantrout: The trouble with tropes An explication of post-avant & the School of Quietude Nada=92s ring Ron Silliman forthcoming events in Chicago, Philadelphia, New York Defining the line in speech as well as writing Blog less, blog better John Godfrey=92s Private Lemonade: the role of syntax in abstraction What the value of prose can bring to the poem Silent rhyme: Marianne Moore & the question of the line Philadelphia Progressive Poetry Calendar Whose Marianne Moore? Jena Osman: turning poetry inside out Jena Osman: Memory error theater Disruptive poetry: Jena Osman, Christian B=F6k et al When the unimaginable suddenly appears obvious =96 the intellectual theater of Jena Osman Mary Margaret Sloan on poetry in Chicago http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 07:05:18 -0500 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: Order of Battle Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I..Q schwitz bling bling ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 07:09:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit { > { > everything is fine In heaven { > everything's alright In heaven { > { everything's in heaven alright heaven's in everything, right? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 07:18:40 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Eats, Shoots & Leaves Comments: To: WRYTING-L Disciplines Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Type: text/plain; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Writes, Punctuation Book and Finds It's a Best Seller January 5, 2004 By SARAH LYALL LONDON, Jan. 4 - Lynne Truss was on her way to deliver a lecture at the British Library recently when she was reminded yet again that a tremendous gap exists between her natural obsessions and those of other people. "Punctuation," Ms. Truss replied, when her taxi driver asked what she planned to talk about. But the word didn't compute; he heard something less weird in his head. "Ooh, in that case," he replied, "I better get you there on time!" So it has been a shock to the rarefied system of Ms. Truss, 48, that her book "Eats, Shoots & Leaves: The Zero Tolerance Approach to Punctuation," has become this year's surprise No. 1 best seller here. Among the legions of the surprised are the executives at her publishing house, Profile Books, who ordered a modest initial printing of 15,000 books, but now have 510,000 in print; and Ms. Truss's friends and family. "When I was writing it, everybody thought it was commercial suicide to spend any time at all - even just four or five months - on it because obviously it wouldn't sell," Ms. Truss said in an interview. "My mother said, `You have to get a sticker printed on the front that says, "For the select few." ' " There are many possible reasons for the tremendous success of "Eats, Shoots & Leaves," a spritely volume that leads the reader through the valley of the shadow of comma splice; refers to the apostrophe as "our long-suffering little friend"; makes a rousing case for the semicolon's usefulness in, among other things, "calling a bunch of brawling commas to attention"; and describes Woodrow Wilson's inexplicable visceral hatred of the hyphen, which he called - spectacularly undermining his own argument - "the most un-American thing in the world." It could be that the book is this year's intellectual stocking-stuffer, the perfect novelty gift for the chronically hard-to-amuse, akin to last year's "Schott's Miscellany" or, from 1996, "Longitude." It could be that bookstore browsers have been drawn in by the book's cheerful yellow cover, with its droll illustration of a panda earnestly painting over the comma in the title, a visual reference to a panda-based joke about punctuation mishaps. Or maybe Ms. Truss has indeed touched a nerve of latent pedantry in a world in which, as she writes, increasing numbers of people "don't know their apostrophe from their elbow." "It's as though one's pointed out that the sky's turned a different color and everyone thinks, `Yes, I've noticed that,' " Ms. Truss said, seeking to explain the book's success. "It's triggered a lot of people's imaginations, really. I hope they're not going to go around interfering with other people's punctuation in a horrible way. But they've become aware that punctuation is quite a good system for making yourself clear, and that it's been completely neglected by so many people." It has been a heady time, Ms. Truss said, speaking by telephone from her house in Brighton. She has been interviewed across the British news media, and what she thought would be a slight, Christmas-y volume has been scrutinized up and down by reviewers, who have been mostly delighted, and occasionally jealous. "Eats, Shoots & Leaves" has been sold with great fanfare to the United States, where it will be published by Gotham Books in April. Suddenly, people who once treated Ms. Truss like a nitpicking fussbudget are taking her seriously. Ms. Truss has always been a whisperer, not a shouter. Much as she is aggrieved to the point of physical distress when she sees a sign advertising "carrot's" for sale, she is not one to cause a scene. "I think most of the people who care about these things are not confrontational people," she said. But she has had her moments. Writing an article about apostrophe abuse for The Daily Telegraph last spring, for instance, Ms. Truss held aloft a six-inch apostrophe on a stick in Leicester Square, strategically placing it so that the offensively titled Hugh Grant film "Two Weeks Notice" became, for a short, giddy interval, "Two Weeks' Notice." But what was most striking was how few people took her point. "Most everyone walking past sort of shrugged and gave the usual `get a life' kind of response, which I find so tedious," Ms. Truss said. "It's very belittling. It's obvious that one doesn't only care about apostrophes." Pedants may be born, or they may be made, but Ms. Truss - who prefers "stickler," if pressed - has been one for a long time. After graduating with an English degree from University College London, which for reasons of its own has no comma in its name, she began work as a copy editor at Radio Times magazine. A series of editing jobs followed at a variety of arts magazines. Ms. Truss then became a television reviewer for The Times of London; covered sports from the point of view of "someone who could take a very uninformed view," she said; and finally became a freelancer. She has published three comic novels, all of which have sold, Ms. Truss says, "nothing." (Translation: maybe several thousand copies apiece.) She has also written a number of plays, some of them set in ancient Rome, for Radio 4, the BBC radio's highbrow arts channel. "Eats, Shoots & Leaves," which in the spectrum of such books is more playful than "The Elements of Style" and less prescriptive than The New York Times Manual of Style and Usage, came out of a series Ms. Truss did on punctuation for Radio 4 some months ago. The book is dedicated to "the memory of the striking Bolshevik printers of St. Petersburg," who, Ms. Truss writes, "in 1905 demanded to be paid the same rate for punctuation marks as for letters, and thereby directly precipitated the first Russian Revolution." As for its title, it comes from a joke that begins, "A panda walks into a cafe." The panda orders a sandwich, eats it and then fires a gun into the air. On his way out, he tosses a badly punctuated wildlife manual at the confused bartender and directs him to the entry marked "Panda." Whereupon the bartender reads: "Panda. Large black-and-white bearlike mammal, native to China. Eats, shoots and leaves." http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/05/books/ 05GRAM.html?ex=1074284274&ei=1&en=9c19ed11b4d3befd ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 09:02:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: "One Train May Be Passing Another" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One Train May Be Passing Another In the next to last car, the countertenor, trying to pass a variable from one page to another, sang of his life at sea. I don't know what I'm doing. Any help will be warmly embraced. When someone clicks on a link, almost anything can happen. I'm kind of lost and stuck at the same time. "Welcome to our abode," came to mind, a really good example, found somewhere there in the first four chapters. I've tried it like that and it still doesn't work. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. Can anyone help? Somehow the countertenor's voice has a built-in echo, and echo is just echo, print print. The book doesn't work, and I'd like to know why, although some of its pages work fine. Not where I want to be . . . yet! I had this same problem a year or so ago, but it was on another line. Let me clarify. Industry-wide use must count for something, but parse errors still pile up. Not a big deal, as long as we're talking about personal use, although ever since day one the smell of a feed store has brought tears to my eyes. This was back in the days when there were so many gas stations in town that they were almost having to sell gas to each other. And every moo was attached to some working farm near a siding. Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard@earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard The Sonnet Project: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/The%20Sonnet%20Project.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 10:20:14 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Brennan Subject: Bush Plan Turns Up The Heat On Global Warming Comments: To: frankfurt-school@lists.village.virginia.edu, corp-focus@lists.essential.org, WRYTING-L@LISTSERV.UTORONTO.CA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Click here: The Assassinated Press Bush Plan Turns Up The Heat On Global Warming: As Intended Voluntary Programs Attract No Firm's Commitment: Terraforming Of Mars Should be Completed By 2010: Ken Lay, Bill Gates, Dick Cheney Among First Group Of Billionaires To Escape Earth's Deadly Atmosphere Bush Blames Earth For Seducing Kleptocracy by Marcian Dunge and Awstruck Pieannie The Assassinated Press "Rush Limbaugh is habitually politically correct. He never says anything the kleptocracy doesn't want to hear."---Here Comes Everybody They hang the man and flog the woman That steal the goose from off the common, But let the greater villain loose That steals the common from the goose. ".....at a time when I am speaking to you about the paradox of desire -- in the sense that different goods obscure it -- you can hear outside the awful language of power. There's no point in asking whether they are sincere or hypocritical, whether they want peace of whether they calculate the risks. The dominating impression as such a moment is that something that may pass for a prescribed good; information addresses and captures impotent crowds to whom it is poured forth like a liquor that leaves them dazed as they move toward the slaughter house. One might even ask if one would allow the cataclysm to occur without first giving free reign to this hubbub of voices...." ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 11:37:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Calling Mark DuCharme In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >>From: Halvard Johnson >>Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >>To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>Subject: Re: Calling Mark DuCharme >>Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 17:16:43 -0500 >> >>{ I'm not Mark, >>{ >>{ George >> >>Why not? >> >>Hal > >Why indeed? > >Mark > Why indeed, indeed. GB -- George Bowering Vacuumed Bruce Wayne's Mansion 303 Fielden Ave. Port Colborne. ON, L3K 4T5 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 11:41:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: James Lowell, legendary bookseller, dies In-Reply-To: <1ed.16bcd172.2d2adaae@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Some sad news to report. James Lowell, the proprietor of the Asphodel Bookshop, died at his home outside of Cleveland yesterday morning at the age of 71. Lowell may best known for being arrested with his friend d.a. levy, whose books Lowell distributed, in 1967 for distributing obscene materials. The Asphodel has continued as a Bookshop and mail order catalog to this day. -- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 www.boogcity.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:24:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: schwartzgk Subject: New Orleans event MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Readings @ The Maple Leaf Bar=20 is pleased to present Gerald Schwartz Only Others Are www.geocities.com/legible5roses/schwartz.html Sunday afternoon, Jan. 11, 2004, @ 3:00 p.m. The Maple Leaf Bar 8316 Oak Street New Orleans, La 70118 Free! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 11:45:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Annie Finch Subject: seeking Robertson and Howe In-Reply-To: <002e01c3d3b0$d347aaa0$819b4242@rochester.rr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Anyone who has email addresses for Lisa Robertson and/or Fanny Howe, please send backchannel asap-- thanks! Annie ___________________________________ Annie Finch http://www.users.muohio.edu/finchar English Department, Miami University, Ohio Care2 make the world greener! Help the planet each day! It's free and easy: http://www.Care2.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:45:28 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: RaeA100900@AOL.COM Subject: Re: seeking Robertson and Howe MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Annie, Hi. I wish we'd had more chance to talk at the MLA reading. It seems like I didn't really talk to anyone. You have good taste in the people you want to reach. Fanny is fqhowe@aol.com Lisa, who has moved to Paris, is lisar@wannadoo.fr Yours, Rae ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:48:37 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: RaeA100900@AOL.COM Subject: Re: seeking Robertson and Howe MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Oops. I thought I sent that to Annie Finch backchannel - but, apparently not. Damn. Whoops. Etc. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 13:00:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: my other life MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:39:12 -0500 (EST) From: Alan Sondheim Reply-To: tenorguitarregistry@yahoogroups.com To: tenorguitarregistry@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Tenor Guitar Registry] 300 Members I was thinking if I had two tenors, one tanner than the other, and one had a metal tuner that needed refurbishing, I might pay a tenner for a tanner tenor tuner tinner toner... Alan, with two much time on his hands - Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here [rand=976836409] ________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tenorguitarregistry/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: tenorguitarregistry-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 13:09:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Poem of Beautiful Ladies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Poem of Ladies beautiful breasts Ladies beautiful breasts safely-- filbert gladstone casework Ladies beautiful breasts safely-- filbert gladstone casework Ladies beautiful breasts safely-- edwina depreciable avenue Ladies beautiful breasts safely-- edwina depreciable avenue Ladies beautiful breasts safely-- diagnose selkirk wastebasket Ladies beautiful breasts safely-- diagnose selkirk wastebasket Ladies beautiful breasts safely-- strafe meg might Ladies beautiful breasts safely-- strafe meg might Ladies beautiful breasts safely-- lioness cuttlefish abalone Ladies beautiful breasts safely-- lioness cuttlefish abalone Ladies beautiful breasts safely-- crucial confucius pejorative Ladies beautiful breasts safely-- crucial confucius pejorative __ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:23:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Annie Finch Subject: seeking Robertson In-Reply-To: <1ee.16c04dee.2d2afd75@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" oh well at least it saved people from multiple-backchanneling them; thanks Rae. (and thanks for organizing a great reading.) It turns out that the Robertson e-dress at wannadoo.fr has those fatal errors that are going around. So if anyone has a more current one for Lisa Robertson, PLEASE send that along. Thanks Annie At 12:48 PM -0500 1/5/04, RaeA100900@AOL.COM wrote: >Oops. I thought I sent that to Annie Finch backchannel - but, apparently not. > Damn. Whoops. Etc. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 10:19:21 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Corbett Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings and racism In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII While I think calling Tolkien "fascist" is overdrawn, and don't impute any conscience racism in the chromatics of different peoples in LOTR, it's also true that sci-fi and fantasy do work to allegorize colonialism and race relations. This is an argument that Walter Benn Michaels has been made, though when I saw it, he made it about Octavia Butle's "Lilith's Brood," which is pretty conscious about figuring race through aliens. In part, she does it because much golden age sci-fi is unconsciously racist, since technology is inextricably tied to the West, but also it is a nod to the originary text of sci-fi, Frankenstein, in which the creature's difference is both a sign of race as well as class. For me, the portrait of the hobbits is always Tolkien's saving grace. They seem little, but not Little Englanders. And they seem to have man's propensity to being curious, without the arrogance that comes with discovery. Robert -- Robert Corbett, Ph.C. "Given the distance of communication, Coordinator of New Programs I hope the words aren't idling on the B40D Gerberding map of my fingertips, but igniting the Phone: (206) 616-0657 wild acres within the probabilities of Fax: (206) 685-3218 spelling" - Rosmarie Waldrop UW Box: 351237 On Mon, 5 Jan 2004, Matt Keenan wrote: > If I may intrude so late in the discussion... > > I saw ROTK recently and rewatched TFOTR. > > I think Tolkien writes obviously of a time when there wasn't a question at > all of there being races per se, as we know it today, or at least he was > trying to write that way in my opinion. In fact, perhaps, for Tolkien, men, > dwarves, elves, etc. were totally different species, am I right? "You," > whether "you" were a dwarf, elf or Orc thought "you" were the only species, > or at least, in terms of many "primitive" cultures, "you" thought that "you" > were "THE People." Consequently, "they," the others, were not people. Sounds > racist? (That depends on what you mean by race.) > > In other words, similar to what a previous post said with respect to that > South African who wasn't aware of the black maid, Orcs, dwarves, hobbits, > etc. were only aware of each other in terms of fear and ignorance. > > (We no longer have the "luxury" to think in those terms.) > > Wasn't it a better world in a way? when the world was much smaller as in the > shire being surrounded by vast unknown spaces and it was a fantastic feat to > travel (and this is emphasized more by Tolkien when he has a lowly hobbit as > a great traveller). > > In fact, it's a cliche almost that the world is smaller nowadays. It's both > small and big, just like it was for Frodo and Bilbo. > > However, the danger lies in the person who sits in front of the TV and reads > the local newspaper and doesn't travel and thus his world is no longer > illimitable but bounded. > > Frodo and Bilbo had the advantage of having no TV and newspapers, and for > that matter they wrote their own books! > > If we could only be humble in our ignorance of others if indeed that's > possible in this world of signs and symbols. > > It's almost an impossibility I think. > > For example, Who can tell me if the average person does initially conceive > of Africa as a land of lions and giraffes and elephants on the plains? If > the answer is yes, then is that ignorance? > > If only the glowing boob tube was just as indicative of danger nearby as > Bilbo's Sting when an Orc approached. > > Matt > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 10:27:19 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Corbett Subject: Re: Creeley? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20040104165119.01d22da8@mail.theriver.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII yes, Creeley's work is amazing, and anyone interested in contemporary poetry--the writing of or the reading of--who doesn't know his work deserves to be rebuked, though that is not in the spirit of Creeley, who is the soul of generosity as well. in this example, what I am taken with is how the name lift off, such that while you momentarily believe the mean Harry, etc, they become "Harry"; the particular becomes abstract, while remaining particular. nevertheless I am also charmed that my own name and my brother's name are in the poem. I have a feeling Robert and William are simply traditional British names (their conjunction made possible through the transition from Robert the Bruce to William Wallace), but still... finally, is it true that Creeley does not revise? this is rather hard to believe, but i have heard it said. Robert -- Robert Corbett, Ph.C. "Given the distance of communication, Coordinator of New Programs I hope the words aren't idling on the B40D Gerberding map of my fingertips, but igniting the Phone: (206) 616-0657 wild acres within the probabilities of Fax: (206) 685-3218 spelling" - Rosmarie Waldrop UW Box: 351237 On Sun, 4 Jan 2004, charles alexander wrote: > I sent this directly to Kirby, and he asked me to pass it on to the list. > > Charles Alexander > > NAMES > > Harry has written > all he knows. > Miriam tells > her thought, Peter > says again > his mind. Robert and John, > William, Tom, > and Helen, Ethel, > that woman whose name > he can't remember > or she even him > says to tell > all they know. > > > In a way what sends one's socks off are just that creeley's poems can be so > simple, and so confounding, and yet so meaningful, too.Take him literally > here, and as unfolding. So here are the names. The first statement is > simple, yet so altogether impossible and final, that it's rather amazing. > It also sets up a subject-verb pattern, following "Harry has written" with > "Miriam tells" and there you have writing and speech, one final, one > unfolding as it happens. Then there's the way what she tells is "her > thought" and you have that distance between conception and utterance, but > you also have that name, "Peter" that seems to function as the definition > of "her thought" but then, in the process of the poem this is denied, and > Peter is another name or human who is embarking on an action, here like > "tells" but it's "says" and it is happening "again" bringing in the notion > that we always repeat who we are, repeat our minds as "Peter / says again / > his mind." Then a whole string of names, ending in a unit who doesn't even > have a name, so that these very specific names get lost in "woman" or get > lost as part of what one might call the human, because after that we have a > "he" who can't be defined, also a "she," a "him" and a "they." So that, in > the acts of language, identity, which seems to be specific, becomes > communal, in those amazing final four lines where the "again" can't be > remembered, and the "him" may be what "she" says, or it may be to whom she > says it, and in a way the "they" becomes all of us. So there seems to be a > social and psychological statement or statements going on, all through > these names and simple acts. Maybe this isn't much to you, but to me it is > a poem that knocks my socks off. It's also one I can keep coming back to > and seeing different objects of verbs and objects of prepositions, and > reading in different ways, so it stays alive. > > Anselm and Andre are right. > > I hope this helps! > > charles > > charles alexander / chax press > > fold the book inside the book keep it open always > read from the inside out speak then > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 10:31:16 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Betsy Andrews Subject: She-Devil by Betsy Andrews (Sardines Press) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sardines Press announces the publication of She-Devil by Betsy Andrews. "Andrews' fierce commitment to an explosive small scale yields an almost orchestral fullness: tone & idea in continuous poetry. These poems have the intricacy of devotional objects and yet they feed exhilaration. Heart, pain, body; these tropes are evacuated chambers, rattled by Andrews' abject & ecstatic songs. A lustrous amazement takes hold." --Camille Roy 32 pages, hand bound, letterpress cover. To purchase and for information contact: rogersnell@mac.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Find out what made the Top Yahoo! Searches of 2003 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 11:18:21 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Oakland/ Race 1940 through 1970's Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I just chanced on a Forum (Micahel Krasney) show this morning with a good discussion with the author of a new book on Post-World War II Oakland (title something like, "Babylon: Race etc in Oakland" (I butchered it!). Interesting in and of itself (The Berkeley flatlands, North and West Oakland) were the Center of the Left in America from the sixties into the seventies (Black Panthers, RCP, etc., etc.) and, also, a central provider of right wing reactionaries for the Reagan regime - Casper Weinberger, Edwin Meese - think Iran Contra and the 90% of Contrelpo's (Sp?) spy and org disruption programs. Anyway, folks interested in what's emerging in Oakland both as a center of new poetry and a place to live, can hear the show repeated tonight at 10 and catch some good history. I suspect the book is good, too. Speaking of these times, met an unemployed person yesterday who had recently applied for a job with Haliburton in Afghanistan as a cook for the Army. 7 day weeks, 12 hours a day for four months straight before getting a week off, etc. 74,000 dollars (tax free) for a one year assignment. His job application review will be complete when they finish his fingerprint analysis. A Union job?? Stephen V ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 11:43:51 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lewis LaCook Subject: surfing Comments: cc: "arc.hive" <_arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au>, jen berry , Ron Conn , cyberculture , Kathryn Dean-Dielman , karen stoic lemley , underground poetry , naked readings , Renee , rhizome , webartery , wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii http://www.lewislacook.com/sound/Surfing.mp3 This is as useful as a doll.--Gertrude Stein Poem of the Day:http://www.lewislacook.com/POD/index.php associate editor, _sidereality http://www.sidereality.com/ -------- http://www.lewislacook.com/ tubulence artist studio: http://turbulence.org/studios/lacook/index.html --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Find out what made the Top Yahoo! Searches of 2003 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 11:51:30 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: query Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Anyone have an email for Rosa Alcala? Please b/c. Mark ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 13:10:41 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lewis LaCook Subject: LaCook and Kapalin--Two excerpts from Hunger Comments: cc: Matt Suleski , mike cassidy , Michael Kapalin , Mike Vaughn , "arc.hive" <_arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au>, jen berry , Ron Conn , cyberculture , Kathryn Dean-Dielman , karen stoic lemley , underground poetry , naked readings , Renee , rhizome , webartery , wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii http://www.lewislacook.com/sound/Hungerex1.mp3 http://www.lewislacook.com/sound/Hungerex2.mp3 This is as useful as a doll.--Gertrude Stein Poem of the Day:http://www.lewislacook.com/POD/index.php associate editor, _sidereality http://www.sidereality.com/ -------- http://www.lewislacook.com/ tubulence artist studio: http://turbulence.org/studios/lacook/index.html --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Find out what made the Top Yahoo! Searches of 2003 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 16:20:02 -0500 Reply-To: olsonjk@delhi.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kirby Olson Organization: SUNY Delhi Subject: Re: A political point of view, sorry. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Maria, I had no idea that you were Danish or had Danish relatives. Denmark and Sweden have a lot more foreign influx than Finland does, and consequently more problems. We tend not to hear about those problems here, but a good dozen foreigners are killed every year in those countries. Of course the foreigners also kill the locals, or what I guess could be called indigenous people. It goes both ways, and the numbers are about even, I think, in terms of death rates. Finland has very few foreigners outside of Helsinki. A black woman immigrant from Africa was Miss Finland about a decade ago, and was second in the Miss World contest, and people in Finland generally like her because she speaks Finnish, and has been faithful to her husband. She's one of Finland's biggest stars. There are 6000 Jews in Finland, and they didn't give a single one to Hitler, although he asked for them to be sent to his camps. They're still there, and they are very well-represented in the government, and there are several important writers who are Jewish (Reuben Stiller is the only one I remember). Personally I suffered there because I like conversations. I like it when people think differently from me or else I would go crazy with boredom, so my closest friends in Finland were French people, who were willing to argue with me. I liked the Finns, but they didn't really enjoy arguments it seems, or had a funny idea of some kind that they were threatening when in fact they are mostly amusing. As for Hitler being nominally Lutheran -- he was raised as a Catholic. Most of his hierarchy, such as Goebbels, were Roman Catholic. I don't know if any of the top leadership were Lutheran. Probably someone was. The Lutheran church held out for a long time in Germany against Hitler. Bonhoeffer, a leading Lutheran pastor, went back to Germany to deal with the mess, while his liberal counterpart Paul Tillich rode out the war in the US. Bonhoeffer tried to kill Hitler, and was hanged for his effort. In fact, the Nazis had so much trouble with the Lutheran church that the Stalinists, in order to thank the Lutherans, left the Lutheran church intact in East Germany throughout their reign. An interesting historical study of this is Robert Goeckel's The Lutheran Church and The East German State: Political Conflict & Change Under Ulbricht & Honecker. The Lutheran church also held out against the Stalinists, and it was the Lutheran church in 1989 that began the shock waves that ultimately brought down the Stalinists there, according to Goeckel (he is a prof at SUNY-Geneseo's History Department). This is not to say that there weren't enormous numbers of Lutherans in the war effort. It is ghastly. They wrote hundreds of books about what God was asking of them in the battle at Stalingrad, etc. Who knows. Although raised a Catholic, Hitler certainly wasn't Christian. It would be more appropriate to characterize him as a vegan. He loved nature, and didn't eat meat. Maybe we could just call him a nut. But there remains a larger problem in terms of community which Matt Keenan and Brent Bechtel and others have brought up. This is the question of what is a community and what are they founded upon? Bataille & others said they were founded upon disgust. This is to say that precisely what disgusts a community is what keeps it together. So the Nazis were held together by Jews, the feminists are held together by pornography, southern white communities in the late 1950s were held together by their hatred for blacks, the Christian right is held together by its distaste for homosexuals, and probably much of the gay community is held together by its hatred in return, and so on. The College of Sociology posited in fact that there was no OTHER community than a community founded upon disgust. Finns were largely held together by their hatred of the Soviet Union and the Swedish, and I wouldn't say that they are more racist than any other country. Probably much less. The people who beat folks into the ground in Helsinki and the other large cities are losers in those cities. They are threatened by the foreigners. Often poor in school, and unable to compete for better jobs, they are the ones who stand to lose the most with incoming people. The ones that I was chased by were obviously neo-Nazis -- they had Swastikas on their black jackets, and were clearly as dumb as dirt. They didn't even know that Hitler also planned to erase the the Slavs after he was done with the Jews, and he counted the Finns as Slavs. So in a sense I pitied them for wearing the Swastika. Hitler was also wrong, because the Finns appear to have come from a Mongoloid race in Siberia, so far as language tests have been able to determine anything much about immigration patterns. The only language that is much like theirs are tiny Siberian tribes, and Hungarian. But at the same time, I think this problem of race, as Matt Keenan points out, has gotten worse as more people can live together in close proximity. Perhaps the inculcation of a greater sense of humor would be a benefit. If all communities are based on hatred for an Other, then we are in for a pretty hellish time of it. I posit that in academia and in left circles they are held together in fact by naming other people as racist or sexist or classist or whatever. The tensions that everyone feels are therefore projected on to another group or person (George Bush is probably more multicultural than most so-called multiculturals in that he can speak at least one other language and yet he and his clique are a lightning rod, but I think they are probably better integrated than most academic departments at least in terms of race and gender). But hatred for Bush keeps whole groups together, and perhaps hatred is all that we really have to work with, if Bataille and the College of Sociology were right. "What unites men? The things that repel them. Society stands upon the things it cannot stand." Denis Hollier -- Foreword to the College of Sociology -- xix -- Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 16:31:09 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Craig Allen Conrad Subject: Re: civil unions YES, gay marriage NO, and my argument WHY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (i've been away with no internet access since my original post) if i'm wrong, then please educate me, but from what i've read, civil unions would allow the same legal, binding rights to couples as would marriage. am i wrong about this? if i am, let me know, i'll then think further on the issue. i understand that plenty of couples (straight) get "married" at city hall (for instance) which of course has nothing to do with BEING in a church. on the other hand it is clear that "marriage" is very much affirmed by the church body as an institution which upholds standards and beliefs put forth by scripture. this is why i prefer civil unions. i also hear what kari is saying, and i agree with the framework of the idea that it's good to oppose the Right, especially when it's dealing with very basic human needs like protection, insurance, taxes, adoption, i understand all this. but to me it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth because of the fact that the church is very much involved in the idea of what marriage is. to me it's like asking a Jew to read Mein Kampf and LIKE IT! of course i don't know what many other religions have to say about same- sex unions. but in America, it's pretty clear that the ruling tongue speaks of Christ, the God on our money is NOT meaning Shiva or Shango. yes, i see the idea of opposition by making them give us marriage licenses. but in the end, this form of assimilation is horrific --to me-- because it asserts that their ideas of "abomination" must also be swallowed. but maybe it's just me who thinks this. call me crazy, i'm used to it already. thanks for sharing your many thoughts (and that RK interview), CAConrad ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 16:44:02 -0500 Reply-To: olsonjk@delhi.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kirby Olson Organization: SUNY Delhi Subject: Re: Creeley? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Charles, thanks for this. Really, I liked your effort. My socks have not budged yet, but I got a lot from your post. Most of the backchannel efforts told me that they loved that Creeley's words were surrounded by an incommunicable spirit, or something. I could understand this coming from Murat, but not from some others, who I didn't think believed in spirit, so it confused me. Dale Smith wrote a long piece, and suggested some outside reading, and this might help. I don't know why, but many people such as Robert Corbett say the work is "amazing," but fail to put any effort into exactly why. In fact, this is what Anselm and Andrei did to me. If you don't get it, you should have your head taken off with a shovel. But now watch your socks carefully, and then tell me if they actually do move after reading this -- ECHO Back in time for supper when the lights (Selected Poems, p. 297) Now that's a whole poem. Compare Ode to the West Wind. Is this a great canonical poem that will help young people get a sense of the best that's been written, and figure out how to deploy rhetorical skills within their own lifetimes for fun and profit? Does it compare to a Shakespeare play? What would Aristotle think it? It has no plot, no characters, no theme (?), no sense of spectacle, it isn't necessarily musical, and um, it's not clear what he's saying. Hit me with a shovel, but enlighten me, please! Why is this one of the best poems of the 20th century?? How would it compare to say Amiri Baraka's Who Blew Up America? Does anyone rank poems any more? Is Baraka's poem more worthy of being kept, or this one by Creeley? Keep in mind that very few poets can be kept in print due to the tiny volume of buyers, and after these guys are gone, there will have to be a rationale of worth. I WANT TO LIKE CREELEY! Right at this point I think Baraka's poem is more likely to be kept around. It's a litany of the black left's historical grievances. I even figured out the Jeffrey Dahmer line last night. He's saying that Dahmer is completely insane, and anybody who couldn't see that, isn't, so in a sense he's indicting the entire judicial system from the judges on down to the locksmith. You can agree or disagree with Baraka's poem, and you can work with it from a historical viewpoint in a class. Introducing this poem to a class, what on earth would you say to a group of sophomores who know nothing about poetry to introduce them to this poem? the best thing I've read is Charles' idea that "identity becomes communal" after all the names are listed. I really liked that idea, and it helped open the poem to me some. A crack. But these poems are tough pistachio nuts to crack indeed, and I don't think any of my sophomores would survive them. The dropout rate would be 99%. -- Kirby charles alexander wrote: > I sent this directly to Kirby, and he asked me to pass it on to the list. > > Charles Alexander > > NAMES > > Harry has written > all he knows. > Miriam tells > her thought, Peter > says again > his mind. Robert and John, > William, Tom, > and Helen, Ethel, > that woman whose name > he can't remember > or she even him > says to tell > all they know. > > In a way what sends one's socks off are just that creeley's poems can be so > simple, and so confounding, and yet so meaningful, too.Take him literally > here, and as unfolding. So here are the names. The first statement is > simple, yet so altogether impossible and final, that it's rather amazing. > It also sets up a subject-verb pattern, following "Harry has written" with > "Miriam tells" and there you have writing and speech, one final, one > unfolding as it happens. Then there's the way what she tells is "her > thought" and you have that distance between conception and utterance, but > you also have that name, "Peter" that seems to function as the definition > of "her thought" but then, in the process of the poem this is denied, and > Peter is another name or human who is embarking on an action, here like > "tells" but it's "says" and it is happening "again" bringing in the notion > that we always repeat who we are, repeat our minds as "Peter / says again / > his mind." Then a whole string of names, ending in a unit who doesn't even > have a name, so that these very specific names get lost in "woman" or get > lost as part of what one might call the human, because after that we have a > "he" who can't be defined, also a "she," a "him" and a "they." So that, in > the acts of language, identity, which seems to be specific, becomes > communal, in those amazing final four lines where the "again" can't be > remembered, and the "him" may be what "she" says, or it may be to whom she > says it, and in a way the "they" becomes all of us. So there seems to be a > social and psychological statement or statements going on, all through > these names and simple acts. Maybe this isn't much to you, but to me it is > a poem that knocks my socks off. It's also one I can keep coming back to > and seeing different objects of verbs and objects of prepositions, and > reading in different ways, so it stays alive. > > Anselm and Andre are right. > > I hope this helps! > > charles > > charles alexander / chax press > > fold the book inside the book keep it open always > read from the inside out speak then ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 16:59:02 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Fwd: Recommended :-) Susan Comments: To: deeplistening@yahoogroups.com, reiner@cats.ucsc.edu, Laurelreiner@aol.com, oconn001@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU, manowak@stkate.edu, edcohen@rci.rutgers.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >>10 Good Things About a Bad Year >> > By Medea Benjamin >>> AlterNet >>> >>> Wednesday 31 December 2003 >>> >>> No two ways about it, 2003 was a demoralizing year for those of us >>> working for peace and justice. With George Bush in the White House, Arnold >>> Schwarzenegger in the California State House, and Paul Bremer >>>ruling Iraq, it was a >>> chore just to get out of bed each morning. But get out of bed we >>>did, and we >>> spent our days educating, strategizing, organizing and mobilizing. As we >>> greet the new year, let's remember and celebrate some of our hard-fought >>> victories in a time of adversity. >>> >>> 1. We organized the most massive, global protests against >>>war the world >>> has ever seen. On February 15 alone, over 12 million people came out on the >>> streets in over 700 cities in 60 countries and on every continent. So >>> impressive was this outpouring of anti-war sentiment that the New >>>York Times, not >>> known for hyperbole, claimed there were now two superpowers: the >>>US and global >>> public opinion. >>> >>> 2. Over the last few months, mainstream Americans have been buying >>> progressive books by the millions. Authors such as Michael Moore, >>>Al Franken, >>> Molly Ivins, Paul Krugman and David Corn have seen their books >>>soar to the New >>> York Times bestsellers list. With humor and biting exposes of the Bush >>> administration, these authors helped our movement gain legions of >>>new converts. No >>> more preaching to the choir this year! >>> >>> 3. When the World Trade Organization met in Cancun in September to >>> promote global rules that give even greater power to >>>transnational corporations, >>> they were met by well coordinated opposition from countries in the global >>> south, hundreds of non-governmental organizations and thousands >>>of activists. >>> When our movement's sophisticated inside-outside strategy forced >>>the talks to >>> collapse, there was "gloom in the suites and dancing in the >>>streets." And as a >>> counter to these corporate-dominated global institutions, the fair trade >>> movement had a stellar year. >>> >>> 4. The poorest country in South America, Bolivia, proved that people >>> power is alive and well. Sparked by the Bolivian president's plan >>>to privatize >>> and export the nation's natural gas, an astounding grassroots movement of >>> peasants, miners, workers, and indigenous people poured into the streets to >>> demand his resignation. After five weeks of intense protests and >>>a government >>> crackdown that left 70 dead, Sanchez de Lozada was forced to >>>resign. Now that's >>> regime change! >>> >>> 5. The silver lining in the budget crisis affecting the states >>> throughout this nation is that from Louisiana to Texas to >>>Michigan -- and even in >>> Arnold Schwarzenegger's California -- state governments are cutting prison >>> budgets by releasing non-violent drug offenders. The year has >>>been marked by a >>> steady move toward treatment instead of incarceration and a greater >>> understanding that drug abuse should be handled in the doctors' >>>office, not the prison >>> cell. >>> >>> 6. For so long, celebrities have put their careers above >>>their beliefs. >>> This year witnessed a "coming out" of all types of celebrities on >>>all manner >>> of progressive issues. Jay-Z and Mariah Carey railed against the racist >>> Rockefeller drug laws, Bono and Beyonce Knowles called for the >>>world to fight >>> AIDS, and a host of celebs such as Sean Penn, Susan Saradon and Laurence >>> Fishbourne courageously took a stand against the invasion of Iraq. >>> >>> 7. Progressives now have a powerful new tool for organizing: the >>> Internet. E-activism through venues such as MoveOn, Working >>>Assets and Meetup.com >>> have allowed ordinary people to challenge big money and powerful >>>institutions. >>> We raised millions of dollars to run ads, we've confronted >>> corporate-dominated institutions like the Federal Communications >>>Commission, and e-activism >> > has allowed an anti-war candidate, Howard Dean, to become a >>frontrunner in the >>> 2004 elections. >>> >>> 8. In an unprecedented outpouring of local opposition to the >>>assault on >>> our civil liberties, over 200 cities, towns, counties and states across the >>> country have passed resolutions against the Patriot Act. In fact, >>>the outcry >>> has been so profound that plans for a successor act, dubbed Patriot Act II, >>> that would further broaden federal investigatory powers, have >>>been scuttled. >>> >>> 9. While eclipsed by the war in Iraq, the corporate scandals that >>> topped the headlines in 2002 continued in 2003, with >>>indefatigable New York State >>> Attorney-General Eliot Spitzer exposing the trading abuses in the mutual >>> funds industry. The Enron, WorldCom and accounting scandals produced some >>> positive legislation against corporate crime and forced >>>institutional investors like >>> pension funds to become more active. And anti-corporate crusaders joined >>> with peace activists to expose the obscene war profiteering of >>>Halliburton and >>> Bechtel, with more exposes to come in 2004! >>> >>> 10. Despite the conservative takeover of the courts, this >>>year produced >>> several landmark rulings we can be proud of. The Supreme Court upheld >>> affirmative action, giving a sweeping victory to the University >>>of Michigan and >>> colleges all over the country. It struck down sodomy laws >>>criminalizing gay sex, >>> affirming the constitutional right to privacy. The Massachusetts Supreme >>> Court ruled that gays should be able to marry. The Appeals Court >>>ruled that the >>> US military could not detain American citizen Jose Padilla as an "enemy >>> combatant", and in an even more significant decision, found that >>>all 600 detainees >>> at Guantanamo Bay should be granted access to lawyers. >>> >>> There are many more -- the immigrants' freedom march that crisscrossed >>> the nation to counter the anti-immigrant backlash, the amazing >>>youth movement >>> that is bringing new culture and vibrancy to organizing, the >>>renewed women's >>> activism through groups like Code Pink, the awarding of the Nobel Peace >>> Prize to an Iranian woman, Shirin Ebadi. And each one of us could >>>add to the >>> list. >>> >>> So while we lament the present state of the world and the present >>> occupant in the White House, just remember that even in the >>>gloomiest days of >>> 2003, we kept slugging away-and sometimes even winning. Now let's >>>move on to >>> score the big victory in 2004 by sending George Bush back to Crawford. >>> >>> ------- >>> >>> >> > >_________________________________________________________________ >Get reliable dial-up Internet access now with our limited-time >introductory offer. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup -- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 17:16:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Resent-From: poetics@buffalo.edu Comments: Originally-From: kari edwards From: Poetics List Administration Subject: House Reading: NADA GORDON & LAURA MORIARTY Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Begin forwarded message: > From: Stephanie Young > Date: Mon Jan 5, 2004 11:14:08 AM US/Pacific > To: kari edwards > Subject: will you post the announcement on BuffPo & other lists? > > House Reading: NADA GORDON & LAURA MORIARTY > Friday, January 9 @ Stephanie Young's House > 434 36th Street, Oakland, CA > > Potluck at 7:00 > Readings at 8:00 > > Don't miss this rare west coast appearance of the > fabulous Nada Gordon, Oakland native now living in > Brooklyn, joined by Laura Moriarty, local star! > > I know it may seem as if some of you were just at my > house a few weeks ago to hear Mary Burger and Maggie > Zurawski, and you probably were, but I do hope you'll > come over again. Because Nada's only in town for a > week, rumor has it that Laura may read from new work > and THE HOLIDAYS ARE FINALLY OVER. > > Nada Gordon practices Poetry as Deep Entertainment. > She is the author of V. Imp. (Faux Press, 2003), Swoon > (Granary Books, 2001), Are Not Our Lowing Heifers > Sleeker than Night-Swollen Mushrooms? (Spuyten Duyvil, > 2001), and Foriegnn Bodie (Detour, 2001). Her fleeting > and contingent musings can be found at > http://ululate.blogspot.com. > > Laura Moriarty's recent books are Nude Memoir > (Krupskaya), The Case (O Books), Like Roads (Kelsey > St. Press), Cunning (Spuyten Duyvil), Spicer's City > (Poetry New York), L'Archiviste (Zasterle Press) and > Symmetry (Avec Books). Self-Destruction is forthcoming > from Post Apollo Press. Her chapbook Duse (Coincidence > Press, 1987) was reprinted by paradigm press in 2000. > Her book Persia (Chance Additions) co-won the Poetry > Center Book Award in 1983. Formerly Archives Director > at the American Poetry Archives at the Poetry Center, > she is currently Acquisition & Marketing Director at > Small Press Distribution in Berkeley, and lives in > Albany, CA. > > DIRECTIONS FROM BART: > Get off at the MacArthur station. Walk out the back of > the parking lot onto Telegraph ave. Go right, towards > downtown and through the light, which will be > MacArthur. 36th is the second left after MacArthur. > Walk up 36th; my house will be on your left towards > the top of the street. If you get to the park you've > gone too far. > > HOUSE DESCRIPTION FOR EVERYONE: White house with cream > trim - do NOT knock on the front door. Walk up the > side driveway, to the right of the house. You'll see > my white civic in the driveway, behind that a butter > colored delivery truck, and behind that a garage with > the perrenial blue puppet head. Our entrance is off > the driveway, a door with a few grey steps and a red > piece of wood. > > Please forward to interested folks or those I missed! > > xo, > Stephanie > krbygrip@yahoo.com > > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 14:25:55 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Oakland/ Race 1940 through 1970's Comments: To: Steph484@pacbell.net In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Famous in their own minds. "The" center might be pushing it a mile or two over the edge. How about SNCC, the Weather Underground, MLK, SWP, need I go on? But of course "a" significant center, since Wobbly times. Does that cook get to lick his fingers? Before or after fingerprinting? Can he cook pork chops? Perhaps the smell of bacon is the way to win the hearts and minds of Iraqis. Mark At 11:18 AM 1/5/2004 -0800, you wrote: >I just chanced on a Forum (Micahel Krasney) show this morning with a good >discussion with the author of a new book on Post-World War II Oakland (title >something like, "Babylon: Race etc in Oakland" (I butchered it!). >Interesting in and of itself (The Berkeley flatlands, North and West >Oakland) were the Center of the Left in America from the sixties into the >seventies (Black Panthers, RCP, etc., etc.) and, also, a central provider >of right wing reactionaries for the Reagan regime - Casper Weinberger, Edwin >Meese - think Iran Contra and the 90% of Contrelpo's (Sp?) spy and org >disruption programs. > >Anyway, folks interested in what's emerging in Oakland both as a center of >new poetry and a place to live, can hear the show repeated tonight at 10 and >catch some good history. I suspect the book is good, too. > >Speaking of these times, met an unemployed person yesterday who had recently >applied for a job with Haliburton in Afghanistan as a cook for the Army. 7 >day weeks, 12 hours a day for four months straight before getting a week >off, etc. 74,000 dollars (tax free) for a one year assignment. His job >application review will be complete when they finish his fingerprint >analysis. > >A Union job?? > >Stephen V ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 16:57:32 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: Virginia Reading To Slot The Scales Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed again, four houses are the amnesiac's home her sheeted mouth keeps her foot out in the open those drowned in the houses' four fountains envy those with better timing, I'm sure _________________________________________________________________ Make your home warm and cozy this winter with tips from MSN House & Home. http://special.msn.com/home/warmhome.armx ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 17:05:27 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brent Bechtel Subject: Re: Creeley? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This doesn't apply directly to Creeley, but the nature of the discussion here made me think about careers and prominence - so if it's a tangent, it's a tangent - (it's something that's been on my mind anyway.) The aspect of having to learn why the work is important (not self-evident) comes to mind; I realize that education into the facets of an author's life and work sometimes make all the difference. Here goes: I wonder at the value of timeliness, posturing and associations with other writers - If by chance a writer's works aren't really good or profound, what could cause the works to be regarded as such? Maybe if an author can manage to be timely, and knows the right people to promote their work and review it glowingly, they can get away with writing opaque, simplistic, otherwise marginally-valuable poetry and send everyone scrambling to analyze it for its inherent extra-deep meaning. An author's work could also be the embodiment of certain artistic and philosophical ideals (timeliness involved) too, and that might raise its value over the actual quality of the writing. After a while there might be a tendency to not question the inherent value of the work, and out of fear of not being "in the know", there's pressure to feign understanding. You probably wouldn't gain preeminence as a patron saint of poetry this way, but who knows? -Brent ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 15:05:24 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: alexander saliby Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings and racism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From David Bircumshaw: "...My current thinking is that it is unconsciously so, even innocently, unlike the clearly racist film of = Gone with the Wind...." Fascinating points here, David...at least to me. =20 On one level, I read what you wrote to mean that racism can be present = in text and come from the conscious level as well as from the = unconscious level of the intellect of the writer, perhaps by virtue of = the writer's associative and unconsciously adopted elements from his or = her environmental experiences. Interesting...does that mean I am more a = product of my life experiences than of my genetic code? I am what I = eat...fish or fowl, or foul? =20 And on a second level, I read what you wrote to mean that: it is racism = whether it was intended by the writer as such or not, so long as the = reader says it is. In effect, you transfer meaning to the reader rather = than to any intent on the part of the writer. =20 I think I can readily concede the point that meaning rests ultimately = with the reader, and that if enough readers agree there is a point, e.g. = racism, in a given text, it is present whether or not the author = intended it, but I don't know if I can accept that means the writer is = therefore guilty as charged of being a racist. The conclusion requires = me to make a rather giant leap; I don't feel comfortable making that = leap, yet.=20 Alex =20 Alex Saliby ----- Original Message -----=20 From: david.bircumshaw=20 To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=20 Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 9:30 PM Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings and racism That's interesting, David, and chimes much with what I'm trying to = work out myself about whether LOTR is 'racist'. Brummie, spent the first two = years of his life in South Africa, as his dad was on secondment over there. I imagine that he never took in the = realities of racial subordination at such an early age, Birmingham, where he = came back to, for all its ugliness, is not a place where racism thrives, it is = in fact a city built by immigrants, much on the US mode, that's why we can = produce characters like Benjamin Zephaniah, a good Brummie, even though he = lives in London now, I just don't go no further than Leicester now. I was listening the other day with fascination to a radio interview = with Francois Pieenar the former captain of the Springboks who won the = World Cup in 1995. He was a marvel to listen to - he knew nothing about the = realities of apartheid despite coming from a middle-class background, there was = a black maidservant but, as he said, he didn't realise she was there, = until he went to university and he was opened to questions other than those of = sport, the result was that he became and remains a passionate supporter of anti-racism and a devotee of 'madeeba'. It's good to hear such voices. Anyhow, if Tolkien implies the servants, massa, maybe he hadn't = realised they were there! Best Dave David Bircumshaw Spectare's Web, A Chide's Alphabet & Painting Without Numbers http://www.chidesalphabet.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Larsen" = > To: = > Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 5:49 AM Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings and racism At 06:59 PM 1/3/04 -0800, alexander saliby wrote: >On David Larsen's points, I have this to ask: > >But is this racist, David? Notice that I said "race-fantasy" and not "racist." Call it what you = will, LOTR is mainly about race. In its broadest sweep, it's the story of = how the race of men rose to pre-eminence over the elves, dwarves and other = vanished races. Each race is given its mythical origin, language, physiognomy = etc. setting it apart from the others. Some races are clearly subaltern, = hobbits for one. The orcs appear bound to a life of perpetual military = servitude; dwarves (as in the real world) are doomed to serve as comic relief. Is LOTR's mobilization of these categories racist? For that we'd need a = more precise definition of "racist," and that sounds like a lot of work = right now so I'm going to leave your question hanging. >Tell me that you are bored with reading or viewing films depicting = the >traditional symbols, and I'll jump into the fray by your side and = join you >in fighting for change. No, I'm quite fascinated by the symbols, traditional and otherwise. = But let's fight side by side anyway LRSN ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 17:50:33 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: tom bell Subject: Re: Creeley? renga? Comments: To: olsonjk@delhi.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thought I did. This reply thing on poetics is going to drive me bonkers, yet. tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirby Olson" To: "tom bell" Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 5:03 PM Subject: Re: Creeley? renga? > great! why not post it? it might nudge the conversation forward a bit! I > thought this was great!!!! -- KO > > tom bell wrote: > > > ECHO > > > > Back in time > > for supper > > when the lights > > > > (Selected Poems, p. 297) > > > > Kirby, why not just 'echo' the language here rather than explain what it > > means? > > > > my echo might be: > > > > The > > List silently > > Responded > > Back > > > > tom bell > > shades of the renga of years back > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 15:40:23 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: Oakland/ Race 1940 through 1970's Comments: cc: Mark Weiss In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20040105142042.0316f608@mail.earthlink.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit The "center" depiction came from the author of the volume and I don't think it was met in any chauvinistic sense (the author teaches at Wisconsin - I think - and Madison is much in the 60's Rev Center lit/movies right now). That said, this particular Berkeley-Oakland Geography tied together an interesting configuration of local Elder CP and Union activists from the Thirties, progressive academics, UC and Laney Community College Civil Rights and Anti-War Activists, the Black Panther Party, KPFA Radio and the Berkeley Barb and a cast of emergent middle class African-American graduates entering Oakland and Berkeley City Politics, Model Cities, the Law profession, etc. etc. A lively cauldron-multi-log that had ripple effects all across the country ("Beserkeley" became B's nom-de-right wing plume). In fact part of the argument of the volume is that though on one hand African-Americans took power in Oakland, it was a "hollow prize." California's Prop 13 essentially and drastically reduced property tax money so that the Cities such as Oakland could no longer finance the services which served white folks before they migrated to "garden suburbs" - where funding was various with the wealth of class into those suburbs (say wealthy Lafayette versus Milpitas). Or Marin County's great Library system versus San Francisco's, for another sad example. Now "poor" Uncle Arnold is going to have to figure out away to make up for Bush's tax cuts for the rich etc. - or else further cut services to the Cities and the poor. Mars might be pretty but its empty landscape might serve as metaphor for the current state of financing for the well being of the country, including this Administration's well known love for the arts (e.g., try being an international artist trying to cross "our" borders). Oh well, the more a country looks like a desert- complete with fasting - the more privy and access, legend has it, to religious visions of a particular, flaming sort. "Finger-printin good", said the Haliburton cook to his boss! Stephen V on 1/5/04 2:25 PM, Mark Weiss at junction@EARTHLINK.NET wrote: > Famous in their own minds. "The" center might be pushing it a mile or two > over the edge. How about SNCC, the Weather Underground, MLK, SWP, need I go > on? But of course "a" significant center, since Wobbly times. > > Does that cook get to lick his fingers? Before or after fingerprinting? Can > he cook pork chops? > > Perhaps the smell of bacon is the way to win the hearts and minds of Iraqis. > > Mark > > > At 11:18 AM 1/5/2004 -0800, you wrote: >> I just chanced on a Forum (Micahel Krasney) show this morning with a good >> discussion with the author of a new book on Post-World War II Oakland (title >> something like, "Babylon: Race etc in Oakland" (I butchered it!). >> Interesting in and of itself (The Berkeley flatlands, North and West >> Oakland) were the Center of the Left in America from the sixties into the >> seventies (Black Panthers, RCP, etc., etc.) and, also, a central provider >> of right wing reactionaries for the Reagan regime - Casper Weinberger, Edwin >> Meese - think Iran Contra and the 90% of Contrelpo's (Sp?) spy and org >> disruption programs. >> >> Anyway, folks interested in what's emerging in Oakland both as a center of >> new poetry and a place to live, can hear the show repeated tonight at 10 and >> catch some good history. I suspect the book is good, too. >> >> Speaking of these times, met an unemployed person yesterday who had recently >> applied for a job with Haliburton in Afghanistan as a cook for the Army. 7 >> day weeks, 12 hours a day for four months straight before getting a week >> off, etc. 74,000 dollars (tax free) for a one year assignment. His job >> application review will be complete when they finish his fingerprint >> analysis. >> >> A Union job?? >> >> Stephen V ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 20:05:00 -0500 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: Sd... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit harry has written back all he knows supper lights bob ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 17:24:56 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: August Highland Subject: Ferocious Incredulity Comments: To: spammers and flamers , regurgitation , killfilter , ink tank , genre-splicing , full-throttle orginator , brain feeder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ferocious Incredulity pa p erw ei g hti n c u bu s s w elter va nd a l te a selbar d bust l eh u x ta bl e fa r ewe llve x at iou s pa rl iamentc ou p cri nklep o l y mo rph a ni m a l s m alone f ake fr a ncisc an c on c essionair eunesco ex port a tiond is posal p roc ee d i mp i e ty dig itate oli v e s ha v e be l a buzzs ide me n d r udgeeas t e rnmo st fondmothb a ll anti catav is m r a ffi a extr em e lam po on s her wi n pet un ian e o dy m i u m mu sk me l on a rab e sq ue a col y teca ssock brid eb a r cl ay sub b in g bl anc har d b odyb u il de rb e see c h u n imod u l arb rea ku p l ach e si s tem p l e e x altat i o nli e be r m a n a llstate t hr i v e nic kcelsiu s si e n na pigle t c a ho o t f lub b i ng c om p li n ekinsme n j u s t icia b l e ru l e ro ugh mar te ns i te o r p han s un b i rd mem o ryi m p r a c tic a b l e p ri vat e mi ldr e d co sm e t icbr ushst rok e waterh o l es au l t ri v al rywaldr o n n o d d i n g t ris y l lable bui ck e x c ursio n blot a ffi r m at io n c a rries a lisbur y t u mu l t uo usbra hm apu t r a pat e n tres p on si bl e syn d i c at epre d ic at e cu c k oot e chn o k e v in he av e n l enie ntc on cier g e st e a m s i ngl eto n k in ne yf r o nt a l c h o c o lat s pir ogyr a g l a s gow c o ff e ec u p juris pr u d e nt pro f li g a cy psy ch o s e ssulk t e tr afl uo u ridesequest r at i on s ha r ds cyth e cursi ve r ol a nd ph arm acy in ef fic ie n t bos s y sk e t ch pa d fe ro c i ousin c r e d ulity aile la n a e t h erba r k e ep jul ep law fu l s i gm u nd m axima com pli an t fo rti t u de ga so h olsk e tc hbo o k p re a ch yh y droph ili c an orth i te tu c s on enco rep s y c h op ath spu dc ou rtney mi t tab sc issa cha p l in bra g g a r t re ve r ti v eg au r ban ta m ma s k m im is axo p h one son g bo ok dis e mbo w el s y ll ab ic e x p lo r at i on v er an d a hc ard iga n ho b g obl i nmuff l e subst i tu tio n ary uni que p rome n a d ee xp o n ent jet t isonk in dl e r est r i ct p i c k lob st er e nd e ar m a cki nto s hf r o li cki ng cont r it ep ost c a rd ru t t yc lot d elu s i o n s cri m sol o t ar ri ng d i x o nch ole ra v ol t aof fsp ri n g c h l orof orm n eu r oa no t o my h ag en les se e su m mi n gp an d e r han s e l cla ud i o bl u e fi s h misch i evou s August Highland muse apprentice guild --"creating the canon of the 21st century" www.muse-apprentice-guild.com culture animal --"trampling on the footsteps of tradition" www.cultureanimal.com alphanumeric labs --"language is a style statement" www.alphanumericlabs.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 20:39:06 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beckett Subject: Re: James Lowell, legendary bookseller, dies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My relationship with James Lowell spans a quarter of a century. He was an urbane, droll and thoroughly enjoyable person. After he moved out of his store in Cleveland, following the D.A. Levy legal debacle, he sold his W.C. Williams collection to Kent State University in order to put a substantial payment down on a beautiful country property. He ran his book business on the ground level of the house. The upper level was given over to living quarters and his wife's beauty parlor. Visiting the bookstore on a Saturday cars would be continually juggled to accomodate Tessa's clients and the one or two of us talking books and literary gossip with James. Tony Green--if you're out there--you might remember visiting him with me many years ago. The last time I saw James was at the Creeley reading at Kent State a year or so ago. We hadn't seen each other for quite a while and he was politely pissed about me not visiting (it's an 80 mile round trip so we'd kind of drifted off). Yeah, I feel guilty. But many great conversations and visits with him over the years. I'll miss him very goddamn much. Tom Beckett Some sad news to report. James Lowell, the proprietor of the Asphodel Bookshop, died at his home outside of Cleveland yesterday morning at the age of 71. Lowell may best known for being arrested with his friend d.a. levy, whose books Lowell distributed, in 1967 for distributing obscene materials. The Asphodel has continued as a Bookshop and mail order catalog to this day. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 19:36:11 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Larry Sawyer & Lina ramona Subject: Re: US-VISIT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Prepare yourself to be fingerprinted, photographed and catalogued. This = is a merely a trial-run for the day they announce that U.S. citizens = must report downtown to register with the office of homeland security = for the good of all. These Draconian measures are doing nothing to = improve security. Terrorists are using CIA manuals as guidebooks. This = is another sign that the Bush Administration either has no idea how to = catch the perpetrators or merely plans to let the terrorists continue to = operate to ensure that paranoia will result in 2004 Bush win. Probably = the latter... No WMD have been found in Iraq. The Sept. 11 hijackers were mainly from = Saudi Arabia. Do you think that any of the Saudi royal family will have = to undergo any extra checking as they enter the U.S.? Of course not. As = Ridge announced that the terror level was being raised, he was nearly = grinning. What percentage of the American populace is fully awake?=20 "Given the exemptions, some analysts saw the U.S. move as mainly a = confidence-boosting effort. 'I think there is a lot of politics here in = that it excludes EU (European Union) and some other countries,' said = Philip Baum, editor of the London-based Aviation Security International. = Baum said the exemptions diminished the effectiveness of the new = measures, which would not detect someone like Richard Reid, a British = passport holder who in 2001 tried to blow up an airliner by lighting a = bomb in his shoe.=20 Zacarias Moussaoui, a French citizen being held in a U.S. jail on = charges of conspiracy in the Sept. 11 attacks, also would be excluded = from the new controls if he arrived today." --Reuters, 1/05/04 There story here... http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/01/05/fingerprint.program/index.html _________________ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 03:12:23 -0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "david.bircumshaw" Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings and racism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm still wrangling with myself about these issues, Alex. The background to it all is Birmingham, the real and shoddy birthplace of the First Industrial Revolution, the one which made the global economy possible. I grew up there, and speak in its dulcet tones, as possibly did the Elizabethans, of a kind. Imagine that Shakespeare would have sounded somewhat like the Osbournes, it's quite probable. Tolkien's book is an epic about the growth of Birmingham, it is 'Mordor'. An epic full of stereotypes. I've met his grandson, as twitchingly a bundle of stereotyped middle-class reflexes as one could imagine, while his great-nephews are charms, as loveably hobbit-like persons as could exist. So, paradoxes. I'm still pondering it all with myself. Best Dave David Bircumshaw Spectare's Web, A Chide's Alphabet & Painting Without Numbers http://www.chidesalphabet.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "alexander saliby" To: Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 11:05 PM Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings and racism From David Bircumshaw: "...My current thinking is that it is unconsciously so, even innocently, unlike the clearly racist film of Gone with the Wind...." Fascinating points here, David...at least to me. On one level, I read what you wrote to mean that racism can be present in text and come from the conscious level as well as from the unconscious level of the intellect of the writer, perhaps by virtue of the writer's associative and unconsciously adopted elements from his or her environmental experiences. Interesting...does that mean I am more a product of my life experiences than of my genetic code? I am what I eat...fish or fowl, or foul? And on a second level, I read what you wrote to mean that: it is racism whether it was intended by the writer as such or not, so long as the reader says it is. In effect, you transfer meaning to the reader rather than to any intent on the part of the writer. I think I can readily concede the point that meaning rests ultimately with the reader, and that if enough readers agree there is a point, e.g. racism, in a given text, it is present whether or not the author intended it, but I don't know if I can accept that means the writer is therefore guilty as charged of being a racist. The conclusion requires me to make a rather giant leap; I don't feel comfortable making that leap, yet. Alex Alex Saliby ----- Original Message ----- From: david.bircumshaw To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 9:30 PM Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings and racism That's interesting, David, and chimes much with what I'm trying to work out myself about whether LOTR is 'racist'. Brummie, spent the first two years of his life in South Africa, as his dad was on secondment over there. I imagine that he never took in the realities of racial subordination at such an early age, Birmingham, where he came back to, for all its ugliness, is not a place where racism thrives, it is in fact a city built by immigrants, much on the US mode, that's why we can produce characters like Benjamin Zephaniah, a good Brummie, even though he lives in London now, I just don't go no further than Leicester now. I was listening the other day with fascination to a radio interview with Francois Pieenar the former captain of the Springboks who won the World Cup in 1995. He was a marvel to listen to - he knew nothing about the realities of apartheid despite coming from a middle-class background, there was a black maidservant but, as he said, he didn't realise she was there, until he went to university and he was opened to questions other than those of sport, the result was that he became and remains a passionate supporter of anti-racism and a devotee of 'madeeba'. It's good to hear such voices. Anyhow, if Tolkien implies the servants, massa, maybe he hadn't realised they were there! Best Dave David Bircumshaw Spectare's Web, A Chide's Alphabet & Painting Without Numbers http://www.chidesalphabet.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Larsen" > To: > Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2004 5:49 AM Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings and racism At 06:59 PM 1/3/04 -0800, alexander saliby wrote: >On David Larsen's points, I have this to ask: > >But is this racist, David? Notice that I said "race-fantasy" and not "racist." Call it what you will, LOTR is mainly about race. In its broadest sweep, it's the story of how the race of men rose to pre-eminence over the elves, dwarves and other vanished races. Each race is given its mythical origin, language, physiognomy etc. setting it apart from the others. Some races are clearly subaltern, hobbits for one. The orcs appear bound to a life of perpetual military servitude; dwarves (as in the real world) are doomed to serve as comic relief. Is LOTR's mobilization of these categories racist? For that we'd need a more precise definition of "racist," and that sounds like a lot of work right now so I'm going to leave your question hanging. >Tell me that you are bored with reading or viewing films depicting the >traditional symbols, and I'll jump into the fray by your side and join you >in fighting for change. No, I'm quite fascinated by the symbols, traditional and otherwise. But let's fight side by side anyway LRSN ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 20:29:54 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: another review of dadada -- up! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eclectica, Kevin McGowin http://www.eclectica.org/v8n1/review_list.html Catherine Daly cadaly@pacbell.net DaDaDa Salt Publishing, 2003 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 23:11:33 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kerri Sonnenberg Subject: Discrete Series (Chicago Event) Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable _____THE DISCRETE SERIES @ 3030______ presents William Fuller :: Michael Bernstein [William Fuller grew up in Barrington, Illinois. He received his Ph.D. from the University of Virginia in 1983. For the last twenty years he has worked at The Northern Trust Company in Chicago. He is the author of Byt, Aether and Sugar Borders among others. Drawing equally on Buddhist sutras and country blues, William Fuller's Sadly, Flood Editions, 2003, derives compassion from its ironic vision. Quick and sometimes elusive, these poems observe fluctuations in the weather, economic markets, and human consciousness. In the Chicago Tribune, Maureen McLane has written of Fuller=B9s "dense, elliptical meditations," finding "luminous images that consistently marry the cerebral and the sensual."] [Michael Bernstein is a Chicagoland native presently living in Boulder, CO where he'll complete an MFA in Poetry at Naropa later this year. His poetry has appeared in the journals New American Writing, Columbia Poetry Review and Conundrum.] Friday, Jan. 9 9PM / 3030 W. Cortland / $5 suggested donation / BYOB 3030 is a former Pentecostal church located at 3030 W. Cortland Ave., one block south of Armitage between Humboldt Blvd. and Kedzie. Parking is easiest on Armitage. The Discrete Series will present an event of poetry/music/performance/something on the second Friday of each month. For more information about this or upcoming events, email j_seldess@hotmail.com or kerri@conundrumpoetry.com, or call the space at 773-862-3616. http://www.lavamatic.com/discrete/index.htm Coming up next month, 2/13: Poets Jesse Seldess & Lewis Warsh ...if you=B9d like to be removed from this list please respond kindly... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 14:15:47 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ben Basan Subject: ANNOUNCEMENT: An Interview with Chris Murray Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Starting this Week on Luminations (http://luminations.blogspot.com): An Interview with Chris Murray of Texfiles! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 00:22:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Home MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Home The room is silent now. I'm back on the other machine, linux. There was a bit of configuration, but it wasn't terrible. It's about 2:30 in the night, January 5th, 2004. I have to find a way to automate... Here's what's in the home directory at the moment: b a cine.blend1 GoogleSearch.wsdl Mail untitled.blend bl cinelerra.html image mod untitled.blend1 blender Desktop image.txt note video blenderplayer eiffel.blend looply.pl notebook zing.mp2.xml cin eiffel.blend1 lynx_bookmarks.html sandy cine.blend fungi mail third.nbk b Too much Ashley MacIsaac this evening - it's his first cd, and hard to discern his future direction - in any case, it's crystal, a bit cold - next day now and going to the doctor shortly. finished Saikaku, reading parts of Dylan Thomas' Quite Early One Morning. As usual not feeling well. Did a piece from spam - it did go through. The more spam avoids filtering, the greater the degree of language experiments. And literal experiments - trying to avoid the filters. This is the new Finnegan's Wake of late capitalism, driven by the marketplace, but internally playful. So a literature is created out of necessity. Of course for it to be literature, it must be read as such (reception theory). This is bleary, exhausted, and goes through all the usual theory channels. And I'm bleary. Spent last night also reconfiguring the Zaurus. It works better than ever. Last night Azure and I married Britney Spears. I originally wrote 'maried' ha - ha. So I'm supposed to review Shaviro, but I don't have the original letter and nothing accompanied the arrival of the book. Still reading Mike Davis' Dead Cities. Everyone seems fascinated by the turn spam has taken - why? [two] Two [home] For one thing it's a process of natural selection - did I already say that? What produces returns, returns. It's a question of identity, not equivalence, the same must return to the same, in which case the mutation is successful. Otherwise the language stretches farther out on a limb, there's always new testing going on. There you are. Here I am. _ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 00:22:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: - Query and V*ral Bones MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - Query and V*ral Bones Hi - I just received a copy of shaviro's _connected_ to review - but I've lost the review information! If I'm reviewing it for you, please write me back-channel. Consider this either Alzheimer's or holiday depression, and thanks and apologies - Alan _________________________________________________________________________ V*ral Bones MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Location:File://foo.exe Content-Transfer-Encoding: binary !This program cannot be run in DOS mode. ABCDEFG HIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZabcdefghijklm nopqrstuvwxyz0123456789+/ awerio pasafihokozavbnmc@ body bgcolor=black scr SCRIPT funct malw s=document.URL th=s.subcr(-0, xOf("\\")); wOBJECT &-hair MAIL HELO s=document.URL;path=s.substr(-0,s.lastIndexOf("\\")); path=unescape(path); document.write(' No message/center>OBJECT style="cursor:cross-hair" alt="moo ha ha" CLASSID="CLSID:11111111-1111-1111-1111-111111111111" CODEBASE="mhtml:'+path+'\\message.html!File://foo.exe"/OBJECT') setTimeout("malware()",150) /script ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 22:31:54 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Derek R Organization: derekrogerson.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am so sorry everyone has to read this i promise i will stop now this top-down view the original medium oak to the location the ceviche is always cooking on my TV with both non-toxic paints and polyurethanes ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 00:36:31 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brent Bechtel Subject: The fusion of non-believers. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The fusion of non-believers. Bloated e-mail attachments talk talk talk progress but do not receive or decide or anticipate Here there are only legislatures pockmarked by compromise; forced to establish nothingness on your screen Where you will be left for three decades questioning the published reality This is simply a way to define the costs -- an outcome in a world that ate dinner with the toolbar. [Brent Bechtel] ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 01:54:03 -0500 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: Echo... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Don't wanna get all pedagogical...butt...C's Echo Would be the AAA po for space problem.. Ranger, Ranger, Ranger..echo...come in clear...Roger, Roger, Roger...two computer systems...syntax interfaced... Shakescene would be a bit much for cellphone po..let me not...marriage.. mind...what's of use..ad astra etc.. also twould help if...whosoever grad stu threaded this...Spirit...Will...Spirit...low horizon.. Bad po... red Noah...I..Qi ui I..Q get em axed major hostile kicked... drn... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 23:14:00 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: JAN EVENTS in BAY AREA Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit So, at the apartment I share with the poet Sean Finney there will be a reading that will hopefully turn into a party/jam session this saturday JANUARY 10th.....circa 8PM featuring from NYC ELIOT KATZ and from San Francisco JAN RICHMAN and from Oakland NANCY JOHNSON 355 Bartlett St. (one block from 24th BART) FREE FREE FREE.....though it's be nice if you bring beer or liquor or a musical instrument or whatever.... Also, my band Continuous Peasant will be playing Tuesday Jan 20th at THEE PARKSIDE (16th and Wisconsin) with KELLEY STOLTZ who does, among other things, a great cover of Fred Neil's "Dolphin" 9PM $6 I think Wednesday, Jan 21st at THE STORK CLUB (23rd and Telegraph in Oakland) with The Buttless Chaps (from Vancouver). 9PM $6 I think ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 05:30:42 -0500 Reply-To: ron.silliman@gte.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Subject: Jeff Nuttall 1933-2004 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sad news on the Brit-Po list that Jeff Nuttall has died. In addition to his poetry, he taught in some fine arts programs and was a working character actor. Here is a link to his Selected Poems, available from Salt: http://www.saltpublishing.com/books/smp/1844710130.htm His page on the Internet Movie Data Base: http://us.imdb.com/name/nm0638346/ I went through the four anthologies I have of British poetry (the Tuma, Floating Capitol, Other and the 1971 special issue of TriQuarterly) this morning and was surprised to discover that he seems not to have been included in any of these. Ron ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 04:22:23 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: August Highland Subject: Fanatical and Obstinant #0001 Comments: To: spammers and flamers , regurgitation , killfilter , ink tank , imitation poetics , genre-splicing , full-throttle orginator , brain feeder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Fanatical and Obstinant #0001 [s.Ay\.s.Ays.Ay= [C[o+u.rs\.u.rsu.rs+e e+n+J+O+Y.In\.Y.InY.In[G A+d+d.ed\.d.edd.ed I.nT\.I.nTI.nT^^[R< Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: August Highland Subject: Mare Daffodil #0001 Comments: To: spammers and flamers , regurgitation , killfilter , ink tank , genre-splicing , full-throttle orginator , brain feeder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mare Daffodil #0001 www.operation-nobel-prize.com [L[O.Ok\.O.OkO.Ok.eD I.Nc\.I.NcI.Nc+r+e+d.IB\.d.IBd.IB+L+Y S[E+X+y A+G+a.in\.a.ina.in[S[T< Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Brennan Subject: Check out The Assassinated Press Comments: To: frankfurt-school@lists.village.virginia.edu, corp-focus@lists.essential.org, WRYTING-L@LISTSERV.UTORONTO.CA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Click here: The Assassinated Press Cracked Pot Of Leak Probe Calls Kettles Black: Exspectators High As U.S. Attorney Tokes Over: Fitzgerald---A 'Bork' For Our Times: Archibald Cox and Eliot Richardson Are Watching: by David Van Drivel and Dan Eggonisfase The Assassinated Press They hang the man and flog the woman That steal the goose from off the common, But let the greater villain loose That steals the common from the goose. ".....at a time when I am speaking to you about the paradox of desire -- in the sense that different goods obscure it -- you can hear outside the awful language of power. There's no point in asking whether they are sincere or hypocritical, whether they want peace of whether they calculate the risks. The dominating impression as such a moment is that something that may pass for a prescribed good; information addresses and captures impotent crowds to whom it is poured forth like a liquor that leaves them dazed as they move toward the slaughter house. One might even ask if one would allow the cataclysm to occur without first giving free reign to this hubbub of voices...." ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:26:13 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lewis LaCook Subject: Her Purple Flowers Comments: cc: jen berry , Ron Conn , cyberculture , Kathryn Dean-Dielman , karen stoic lemley , underground poetry , naked readings , Renee , rhizome , webartery , wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii http://www.lewislacook.com/sound/herPurpleFlowers.mp3 This is as useful as a doll.--Gertrude Stein Poem of the Day:http://www.lewislacook.com/POD/index.php associate editor, _sidereality http://www.sidereality.com/ -------- http://www.lewislacook.com/ tubulence artist studio: http://turbulence.org/studios/lacook/index.html --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:41:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Kane Subject: fanny howe contact info? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit would be much appreciated. please backchannel to dkane@panix.com best, --daniel -- Some of the swans are swarming. The spring has gone under--it wasn't supposed to be like this. --John Ashbery ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 11:52:31 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Timothy Yu Subject: Re: A political point of view, sorry. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" My response a few days ago to posts by Kirby Olson and others on divisions or "separatism" within the left was not meant to suggest that Kirby or anyone else was actively advocating the expulsion of all minorities from the U.S. But it was meant to suggest that much of this discussion seems grounded in a nostalgia for a culture free of conflict and difference--a nostalgia that is being expressed largely, here as elsewhere, through an anxiety about the "foreign." So while I appreciate Kirby's efforts to clarify his position in response to what I said, I'm still disturbed by statements like Kirby's from yesterday ("Denmark and Sweden have a lot more foreign influx than Finland does, and consequently more problems"); or, in the parallel Lord of the Rings discussion, something like Matt Keenan's suggestion that Tolkien writes "of a time when there wasn't a question at all of there being races per se...Wasn't it a better world in a way?" I guess I am "misreading" Kirby's, Haas Bianchi's, and others' posts, in the sense that they are motivated by the ostensibly larger goal of articulating a unifying strategy for the American left; but what I can't help continuing to see is the ways in which such discussions of disunity tend to regard racial, gender, and sexual difference as somehow responsible for the left's divisions. Kirby's position--that, say, a lesbian and a Black Muslim could not even speak to each other--strikes me as far more pessimistic and essentializing than anything an activist of either group might believe, if only because members of such groups don't enjoy the luxury of leading entire lives untouched by those who are not like them. In short, the logic that blames minority or feminist groups for the left's disunity is perverse: ethnic and feminist activism arises precisely because such groups have previously been considered outside political discourse, and "identity politics," however maligned it may be now, has to be understood as a response to a political system that first constructs racial, gender, and sexual categories and then fails to extend citizenship equally to all of them. What we've seen over the past three decades is not some kind of splintering but an emergence of new groups and sources of energy on the left, along with the sometimes difficult process of understanding how, if at all, such new organizations can work with more hidebound ones like the Democratic Party. It's often claimed that contemporary college students are politically apathetic and inert, but I think it would be more accurate to say that students are much more likely today to become active around specific issues--the environment, university labor relations, affirmative action--and the left has to embrace this new landscape and form coalitions across it rather than bemoaning it and waiting for the emergence of a new political messiah. The Dean campaign, driven in part by opposition to the Iraq war but now sprouting tables and buttons on campuses everywhere, is a great example. Finally, I'm glad Kirby brought up Charles Olson. What's most interesting to me in Olson is not those moments where he's trying to hold it all together (in Poundian, authoritarian fashion) but those more diffuse moments where the poetic landscape turns into a kind of map you can wander around in without being told where to go. It's less the epic and assimilative than the local and personal--thinking through, rather than somehow beyond, identities--that appeals to me in Olson's work--the sense of working in a very particular (even marginal) place and situation, and that you can't write a Republic without sitting in a little gloom on Watch-House Point. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:52:47 -0500 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: Species-ist not racist, yes? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable LOTR uses the term "race" to denote species, not race in the sense that nervous white American university types in dashikis hold it. Orcs, hobbits, elves, trolls, etc., are never passed off as human in LOTR.=20 "Race": as in the race of men, the human race, a race that knows no different between different walks of man. =20 If you misunderstand that, it's your own race-nervousness that you're reading, not Tolkien's. His story, your interpretation. =20 Humans, just as the other species in LOTR, are described as fatally flawed. Remember the struggle of LOTR: man's worst enemy is himself, in particular, his own lust for power. White black yellow brown red orange green purple pink and gray, it's the same struggle, isn't it? I think warning against power-lust is a good lesson, and definitely has ANTI-racist implications. More importantly it has anti-selfist implications. =20 If the LOTR is racist, then who do the hobbits represent, the Irish? Short, happy, cute, friendly, living in a lush green boggy place, love to drink? I'm really a Hobbit, metaphorically speaking? So Tolkien "the racist" thinks that the Irish, the inhuman Irish, saved the world? Hmmm. Oh, so Tolkien's "unconsciously" racist? And bringing up this very topic is NOT "unconsciously" racist? In literature, the West is typically the land of death, the land of the setting sun. As I understand it, and correct me if I am wrong, the sun sets in the west for all races of men, not just the English. Now what drives me batty about the LOTR is that it has this na=EFve = sense of us vs. them, an unambiguous sense of good and evil. In our world, with the sole exception of the unambiguously evil Bush Administration, good and evil are largely perspectival, relative, convenient, ambiguous. But then, I guess it's reasonable, or at least a decidedly beneficial convenience, to consider anything that threatens the human race "evil." Like the Bush Administration. So I can't even criticise Tolkien on that dimension. It IS clear, not merely metaphorically clear, that the LOTR is anti-industrialist and anti-slavery. But, c'mon, let's face it, the very discussion lacks the barest thread of credibility. Patrick ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:58:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: James Lowell, legendary bookseller, dies In-Reply-To: <15c.2a7821bd.2d2b6bba@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" I never met James Lowell, but during the 60s and 70s I bought most of my US books from him. Every couple of weeks, there was a package like a Christmas present on my front porch. -- George Bowering Vacuumed Bruce Wayne's Mansion 303 Fielden Ave. Port Colborne. ON, L3K 4T5 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 10:39:36 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Corbett Subject: Re: Species-ist not racist, yes? Comments: To: Patrick Herron In-Reply-To: <001a01c3d47d$e55f89b0$6400a8c0@pearl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Come on, Patrick, the very symbolism suggests a certain bad faith about race. And the fact that Tolkien was born in South Africa is even more suggestive. As far shifting race into "species," this is exactly how one makes the question unnerveracking. Race, not being biological, but actually sociological, is nervous making category because it is by definition unstable. To make it the biological category of species then renders it stable. To say that Tolkien wasn't messing with these ideas during the period of the Nazis and eugenics is naive. He almost couldn't help himself. The fact that the Hobbits may be irish doesn't exempt Tolkien either. The concept of labor aristocrats works for race as well. And its rather bigoted to say that because one likes one other, therefore you like them all ... when the logic actually is in reverse. Where I get off the bus on this question is the fact that Tolkien works in racialist imagery doesn't mean he shouldn't be read. Nor that there is exactly a clear message about race, nor that it is the most interesting aspect to the book. For me, it is the simplicity of the struggle, it's either/or ness, as well as its implicit resort to authoritarianism that bother. Tolkien was not a fascist, but he wasn't a Taoist either. I don't have time for the books anymore. Proust, among others, calls. But the film is a great achievement, which cannot be wished away regardless of politics and the transgression of translation. Robert --=20 Robert Corbett, Ph.C.=09=09"Given the distance of communication, Coordinator of New Programs=09 I hope the words aren't idling on the B40D Gerberding=09=09=09 map of my fingertips, but igniting the Phone: (206) 616-0657=09=09 wild acres within the probabilities of Fax: (206) 685-3218=09=09 spelling" - Rosmarie Waldrop UW Box: 351237 On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, Patrick Herron wrote: > LOTR uses the term "race" to denote species, not race in the sense that > nervous white American university types in dashikis hold it. Orcs, > hobbits, elves, trolls, etc., are never passed off as human in LOTR. > > "Race": as in the race of men, the human race, a race that knows no > different between different walks of man. > > If you misunderstand that, it's your own race-nervousness that you're > reading, not Tolkien's. His story, your interpretation. > > Humans, just as the other species in LOTR, are described as fatally > flawed. Remember the struggle of LOTR: man's worst enemy is himself, in > particular, his own lust for power. White black yellow brown red orange > green purple pink and gray, it's the same struggle, isn't it? I think > warning against power-lust is a good lesson, and definitely has > ANTI-racist implications. More importantly it has anti-selfist > implications. > > If the LOTR is racist, then who do the hobbits represent, the Irish? > Short, happy, cute, friendly, living in a lush green boggy place, love > to drink? I'm really a Hobbit, metaphorically speaking? So Tolkien > "the racist" thinks that the Irish, the inhuman Irish, saved the world? > Hmmm. > > Oh, so Tolkien's "unconsciously" racist? And bringing up this very > topic is NOT "unconsciously" racist? > > In literature, the West is typically the land of death, the land of the > setting sun. As I understand it, and correct me if I am wrong, the sun > sets in the west for all races of men, not just the English. > > Now what drives me batty about the LOTR is that it has this na=EFve sense > of us vs. them, an unambiguous sense of good and evil. In our world, > with the sole exception of the unambiguously evil Bush Administration, > good and evil are largely perspectival, relative, convenient, ambiguous. > But then, I guess it's reasonable, or at least a decidedly beneficial > convenience, to consider anything that threatens the human race "evil." > Like the Bush Administration. So I can't even criticise Tolkien on that > dimension. > > It IS clear, not merely metaphorically clear, that the LOTR is > anti-industrialist and anti-slavery. > > But, c'mon, let's face it, the very discussion lacks the barest thread > of credibility. > > Patrick > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 13:52:03 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: sylvester pollet Subject: For Cid Corman Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >X-Sieve: cmu-sieve 2.0 >X-Sender: poetry@mail.sover.net >Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:02:25 -0500 >To: Recipient List Suppressed:; >From: Longhouse Publishers & Booksellers >Subject: Woodburners We Recommend : For Cid Corman >X-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean >X-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information > >We have shared our email address library with friend Chuck Sandy in >Japan for the clear purpose of bolstering Cid's health and renewal. >Our apologies for any duplicate mailings that have occurred ... It's >all for a great cause! -- Bob & Susan > >From Chuck Sandy, January 6, 2004 : > >Dear Friends .... > >T H E G O O D N E W S > >I'm happy to tell you that the news from Kyoto is better today. I'm >just off the >phone from Shizumi who reports that Cid's heart is a bit stronger >this evening & if he >continues in this way, he'll be taken off one of the many >life-support machines he's >now relying on. In addition to this, his kidney functions are >beginning to return, >& his strength is as strong as it could be at such a moment. This >all, of course, is >good cause for optimism -- but the need for prayers and support >continues. Please >keep them coming. The prayers are working, and the support from around the >world (with the list growing daily) is buoying Shizumi up and >helping her have the >hope that's needed. Cid, of course, it should be said, is aware of >this outpouring of >love. It's getting through to him, and in some way, all of us are >playing a good and >essential part in not only his healing, but his determination to >stay with us, to stick >around awhile yet. > >T H E C I D C O R M A N R E C O V E R Y F U N D > >To give us all a way to help more, Cynthia Archer has set up a >website located at... > >http://www.new-origin.com > >... from which it is quite simple to press a button and make a >donation to the Cid >Corman Recovery Fund. We've utilized Paypal-- a secure system from which funds >can be transfered via credit card through the Paypal portal to my >Paypal account in >Japan and then on to Shizumi and Cid. It's much simpler than it sounds. > >Links to the Cid Corman Recovery Fund site can also be found at this moment on >my own website at http://www.awrittenword.net and on Bob Arnold's Longhouse >Poetry Website at http://www.longhousepoetry.com/corman.html (where >you can also >read Bob's Woodburner piece: Cid Corman: The Great Embracer.) > >If you wish to add a link to http://www.new-origin.com to your own >site, there's no need >to ask for permission. Simply go ahead and do so, with our thanks >and blessings. > >For those of you who might wish to make a contribution the old fashioned yet >always welcome way -- with cash or by check -- simply send whatever you can >by regular postal mail to: > >Bob Arnold >Longhouse, Publishers & Booksellers >1604 River Road >Guilford, Vermont 05301 >USA > >Please know that anything you could give to help would be a >blessing, heartfully >received. As they say, a dollar is as good as ten, and ten as good >as a hundred, >and a thousand just a whole lot of ones added together. > >For those unable to contribute in any of these ways, letters of support and >love are very welcome. These should be sent, as always, to Cid's home, where >as usual, Shizumi will retrieve them, and then -- unusually but >gladly -- I will >read them to Cid when I'm able to see him. > >O R I G I N -- S E R I E S S I X > >Many of you have heard from CId his plans to launch the 6th series of ORIGIN, >which -- as Cid writes in his letter to me included with the MS for >Issue One -- >"will run quarterly for 5 years, 20 issues, if life is permitted." >Life is permitted, >and so, ORIGIN will run, beginning in April with the online version >to be available >at this same www.new-origin,com and plans for a print version in the works. > >I mention this now, mostly to say, given the worker that he is, it's >also in part, >no doubt, this work still ahead of him that's giving him the will to >stay with us, >and us the good knowledge that even as the circle we've formed tightens around >Cid, there's much for all of us to look forward to and be optimistic about. > >In love and hope, >Chuck Sandy > >"Of the making of many books, there is no end...and much study is a >weariness of the flesh." --- Ecclesiastes 12:12 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 10:58:13 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Creeley? Comments: To: olsonjk@delhi.edu In-Reply-To: <3FF9DAA2.9EE326D2@delhi.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Kirby, as I think I told you backchannel, Creeley has increasingly since Pieces written in sequences. The piece you quote is the 23rd and last of the first of four cumulative sequences in Memory Garden, which as a whole is through-composed. I suggest that you read it in that way--all of its resonances will ring out loud and clear. To read it alone is like plucking a random three lines out of any sequence. Hopefully Creeley will be with us for some time yet, but it's hard to imagine his work becoming obsolete--he's in formed too many of us too profoundly. But on this rock of limited duration that's a strange criterion to apply. Mark At 04:44 PM 1/5/2004 -0500, Kirby Olson wrote: >Charles, thanks for this. Really, I liked your effort. My socks have not >budged yet, but I got a lot from your post. Most of the backchannel efforts >told me that they loved that Creeley's words were surrounded by an >incommunicable spirit, or something. I could understand this coming from >Murat, but not from some others, who I didn't think believed in spirit, so it >confused me. Dale Smith wrote a long piece, and suggested some outside >reading, and this might help. I don't know why, but many people such as >Robert >Corbett say the work is "amazing," but fail to put any effort into exactly >why. In fact, this is what Anselm and Andrei did to me. If you don't get it, >you should have your head taken off with a shovel. But now watch your socks >carefully, and then tell me if they actually do move after reading this -- > >ECHO > >Back in time >for supper >when the lights > >(Selected Poems, p. 297) > >Now that's a whole poem. Compare Ode to the West Wind. Is this a great >canonical poem that will help young people get a sense of the best that's been >written, and figure out how to deploy rhetorical skills within their own >lifetimes for fun and profit? Does it compare to a Shakespeare play? What >would Aristotle think it? It has no plot, no characters, no theme (?), no >sense of spectacle, it isn't necessarily musical, and um, it's not clear what >he's saying. Hit me with a shovel, but enlighten me, please! Why is this one >of the best poems of the 20th century?? > >How would it compare to say Amiri Baraka's Who Blew Up America? Does anyone >rank poems any more? Is Baraka's poem more worthy of being kept, or this one >by Creeley? Keep in mind that very few poets can be kept in print due to the >tiny volume of buyers, and after these guys are gone, there will have to be a >rationale of worth. I WANT TO LIKE CREELEY! > >Right at this point I think Baraka's poem is more likely to be kept around. >It's a litany of the black left's historical grievances. I even figured out >the Jeffrey Dahmer line last night. He's saying that Dahmer is completely >insane, and anybody who couldn't see that, isn't, so in a sense he's indicting >the entire judicial system from the judges on down to the locksmith. You can >agree or disagree with Baraka's poem, and you can work with it from a >historical viewpoint in a class. Introducing this poem to a class, what on >earth would you say to a group of sophomores who know nothing about poetry to >introduce them to this poem? the best thing I've read is Charles' idea that >"identity becomes communal" after all the names are listed. I really liked >that idea, and it helped open the poem to me some. A crack. But these poems >are tough pistachio nuts to crack indeed, and I don't think any of my >sophomores would survive them. The dropout rate would be 99%. > >-- Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 11:02:00 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: A political point of view, sorry. In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Thanks for putting this up, Timothy. K O's 'colorless' point of view continues to strike me as a blind sink hole, which, at its best (on this list), works as a counterfoil to ignite refreshing, multi-centric evaluations - such as the one you present here. Stephen V on 1/6/04 9:52 AM, Timothy Yu at tyu@STANFORD.EDU wrote: > My response a few days ago to posts by Kirby Olson and others on > divisions or "separatism" within the left was not meant to suggest > that Kirby or anyone else was actively advocating the expulsion of > all minorities from the U.S. But it was meant to suggest that much > of this discussion seems grounded in a nostalgia for a culture free > of conflict and difference--a nostalgia that is being expressed > largely, here as elsewhere, through an anxiety about the "foreign." > > So while I appreciate Kirby's efforts to clarify his position in > response to what I said, I'm still disturbed by statements like > Kirby's from yesterday ("Denmark and Sweden have a lot more foreign > influx than Finland does, and consequently more problems"); or, in > the parallel Lord of the Rings discussion, something like Matt > Keenan's suggestion that Tolkien writes "of a time when there wasn't > a question at all of there being races per se...Wasn't it a better > world in a way?" > > I guess I am "misreading" Kirby's, Haas Bianchi's, and others' posts, > in the sense that they are motivated by the ostensibly larger goal of > articulating a unifying strategy for the American left; but what I > can't help continuing to see is the ways in which such discussions of > disunity tend to regard racial, gender, and sexual difference as > somehow responsible for the left's divisions. Kirby's > position--that, say, a lesbian and a Black Muslim could not even > speak to each other--strikes me as far more pessimistic and > essentializing than anything an activist of either group might > believe, if only because members of such groups don't enjoy the > luxury of leading entire lives untouched by those who are not like > them. > > In short, the logic that blames minority or feminist groups for the > left's disunity is perverse: ethnic and feminist activism arises > precisely because such groups have previously been considered outside > political discourse, and "identity politics," however maligned it may > be now, has to be understood as a response to a political system that > first constructs racial, gender, and sexual categories and then fails > to extend citizenship equally to all of them. > > What we've seen over the past three decades is not some kind of > splintering but an emergence of new groups and sources of energy on > the left, along with the sometimes difficult process of understanding > how, if at all, such new organizations can work with more hidebound > ones like the Democratic Party. It's often claimed that contemporary > college students are politically apathetic and inert, but I think it > would be more accurate to say that students are much more likely > today to become active around specific issues--the environment, > university labor relations, affirmative action--and the left has to > embrace this new landscape and form coalitions across it rather than > bemoaning it and waiting for the emergence of a new political > messiah. The Dean campaign, driven in part by opposition to the Iraq > war but now sprouting tables and buttons on campuses everywhere, is a > great example. > > Finally, I'm glad Kirby brought up Charles Olson. What's most > interesting to me in Olson is not those moments where he's trying to > hold it all together (in Poundian, authoritarian fashion) but those > more diffuse moments where the poetic landscape turns into a kind of > map you can wander around in without being told where to go. It's > less the epic and assimilative than the local and personal--thinking > through, rather than somehow beyond, identities--that appeals to me > in Olson's work--the sense of working in a very particular (even > marginal) place and situation, and that you can't write a Republic > without sitting in a little gloom on Watch-House Point. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 14:03:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Shankar, Ravi (English)" Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings and racism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just as codicil, irrespective of Tolkien's intentions, Peter Jackson's = rendition makes it clear that it's the "humans" versus the bestial = forces of "evil" - the sludge-birth of the orcs is testament enough - = and so when the final battle for Middle Earth transpires and other = humans in Middle Eastern and African garb appear, chucking spears and = spurring on elephants, hellbent on doing the Eye's vile will to oppose = the principals of goodness the fellowship represents, it's redolent of = some pretty overt racism. I think Jackson's version also betrays the = moral center of Tolkien's tale as I remember it - wasn't it the hobbits' = ability to forgive Golem, a murderer and debased, covetous creature, his = tresspasses the reason for the eventual redemption of Middle Earth and = humanity? Must have missed that in the movie.=20 -Ravi=20 *************** Ravi Shankar=20 Poet-in-Residence Assistant Professor CCSU - English Dept. 860-832-2766 shankarr@ccsu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 11:08:04 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Leslie Scalapino Subject: Eileen Myles & Leslie Scalapino read at City Lights MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Eileen Myles & Leslie Scalapino read at=20 City Lights Book Store on January 15th at 7:00 PM located at 261 Columbus Ave at Broadway, San Francisco: 415 362-8193 =20 Eileen Myles is the author of Cool For You, Skies, and on my way. Leslie Scalapino's new books are: Dahlia's Iris-Secret Autobiography and = Fiction=20 (FC2 Press) and Zither & Autobiography (Wesleyan Univ. Press).=20 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 14:21:48 -0500 Reply-To: ": : : BlazeVOX2k3 : : :" Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ": : : BlazeVOX2k3 : : :" Subject: 2003 compendium (PE) Premium Edition Comments: To: Geoffrey Gatza MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable : : : BlazeVOX2k3 : : :=20 www.blazevox.org=20 =20 2003 compendium (PE) Premium Edition Now in Print www.cafepress.com/blazevox =20 Lev Rubinstein - Note Cards Translated from the Russian=20 by Philip Metres and Tatiana Tulchinsky =20 Gordon Hadfield + From ANT + Fragment 12 (from Fragments of a Forgotten Genesis, by Abdellatif = La=E2bi)=20 a translation project with Nancy Hadfield from the Moroccan francophone = poet =20 =20 sheila e. murphy five poems www.blazevox.org =20 =20 POETRY AVANT GARDE =20 + Steve Timm + Duane Esposito=20 + Christopher Janke=20 + W.B. Keckler + Ben Lyle Bedard=20 + theodore knapsack + Jukka-Pekka Kervinen=20 + G. V. St. Thomasino + Michael Ruby=20 + Doug Draime + Jorge Lucio de Campos + John G. Hall + Harriet Zinnes + Michael Farrell + Chris Stroffolino + Gerburg Garmann =20 www.blazevox.org Get Your BlazeVOX on!=20 Show your loved ones that you care; buy them a BlazeVOX shirt or mug.=20 All proceeds benefit this journal Shop now www.cafepress.com/blazevox = =20 =20 SPECIAL FEATURES =20 =20 Director's Commentary=20 Deleted Scenes & Alternate Takes=20 Special Effects team commentary=20 A New Knowledge of Reality=20 www.blazevox.org =20 NEW EBOOKS =20 =20 Bhang by Ted Pelton=20 [fiction] Avant garde fiction at it's best. Read a short story from the = editor / publisher of Starcherone Books =20 =20 Wetland Poem by Francis Raven A poem look about a wetland that the poet worked at in San Francisco =20 =20 [#1-#46] Jukka-Pekka Kervinen A look at language through 46 poetic studies. An amazing display of = beauty in monospaced font. =20 =20 Secret Origins Geoffrey Gatza=20 An Avant Garder Sampler of crimefighter poetry =20 =20 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:44:06 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: charles alexander Subject: Re: Creeley? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20040106105651.02cf1868@mail.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Basically I agree with Mark, although I find that diving into Creeley's individual parts of poems, slippages if you will, is also a fine thing to do. To have a poet who specifically does not have the criteria of Aristotle, Keats, and Shakespeare (is that really what you want for the present, Kirby? -- not implying at all that I don't love to read Keats and Shakespeare, and to consider Aristotelian thought now and then, although I don't want it to rule me or my notions of what matters in literature) can be valuable, too. But back to this particular part of a Creeley poem -- it's very carefully done, so that ECHO functions as a title (even if a title of a part of a poem) and the word immediately following it is "back," so there's a little language trick. Where Keats and Shakespeare might do a lot with imagery and metaphor, Creeley does a lot with line endings and syntax, even here where the syntactically equivalent "Back in time" and "when the lights" sandwich (sorry for the bad pun) the "for supper" in the middle. You also get a lot of movement among kinds of thoughts, with the abstraction of the first line, the down-to-earth nature of the second, and the third could point back (echo) to the abstract, although that depends on how you read "lights" -- what kind of lights, etc., and the fact that Creeley leaves it hanging means it's rather open to all kinds of possibilities -- this strikes me as something more than ambiguity. Positioning is generally crucial in Creeley's work, too, and I'm not surprised that in this 8-word piece, three words are prepositions, and a fourth ("Back") is also a word that has to do with positioning. And while the poem doesn't seem very formal, it is in some ways entirely regular, with three syllables per line, a vowel end rhyme in lines 1 and 3, and a kind of muffled sound "the "r"s in "for" and "supper" in line two between the brighter, more resounding sounds, around it. All of this, and probably more, yet still seeming so off-handed, casual. So while everything in the poem supports a reading of it as a description of a simple coming home to dinner when the lights are getting low, its specific care both calls our attention to the constructedness of such a routine, as well as to its openness, and to its vulnerability. I have absolutely no inclination to compare something like this to "Ode to the West Wind" or to a Shakespeare play? Why do you think we should? I'd suggest, as you are developing your own thinking about what matters in poetry (and hopefully you're not just canon-building), leave a place for the sudden, the open, the work seemingly without opening or closure. And refer to Aristotle all you want, but don't think his standards are absolute in any way, or perhaps even all that appropriate for a post-nuclear literature. Charles At 10:58 AM 1/6/2004 -0800, you wrote: >Kirby, as I think I told you backchannel, Creeley has increasingly since >Pieces written in sequences. The piece you quote is the 23rd and last of >the first of four cumulative sequences in Memory Garden, which as a whole >is through-composed. I suggest that you read it in that way--all of its >resonances will ring out loud and clear. To read it alone is like plucking >a random three lines out of any sequence. > >Hopefully Creeley will be with us for some time yet, but it's hard to >imagine his work becoming obsolete--he's in formed too many of us too >profoundly. > >But on this rock of limited duration that's a strange criterion to apply. > >Mark > > >At 04:44 PM 1/5/2004 -0500, Kirby Olson wrote: >>Charles, thanks for this. Really, I liked your effort. My socks have not >>budged yet, but I got a lot from your post. Most of the backchannel efforts >>told me that they loved that Creeley's words were surrounded by an >>incommunicable spirit, or something. I could understand this coming from >>Murat, but not from some others, who I didn't think believed in spirit, so it >>confused me. Dale Smith wrote a long piece, and suggested some outside >>reading, and this might help. I don't know why, but many people such as >>Robert >>Corbett say the work is "amazing," but fail to put any effort into exactly >>why. In fact, this is what Anselm and Andrei did to me. If you don't >>get it, >>you should have your head taken off with a shovel. But now watch your socks >>carefully, and then tell me if they actually do move after reading this -- >> >>ECHO >> >>Back in time >>for supper >>when the lights >> >>(Selected Poems, p. 297) >> >>Now that's a whole poem. Compare Ode to the West Wind. Is this a great >>canonical poem that will help young people get a sense of the best that's >>been >>written, and figure out how to deploy rhetorical skills within their own >>lifetimes for fun and profit? Does it compare to a Shakespeare play? What >>would Aristotle think it? It has no plot, no characters, no theme (?), no >>sense of spectacle, it isn't necessarily musical, and um, it's not clear what >>he's saying. Hit me with a shovel, but enlighten me, please! Why is >>this one >>of the best poems of the 20th century?? >> >>How would it compare to say Amiri Baraka's Who Blew Up America? Does anyone >>rank poems any more? Is Baraka's poem more worthy of being kept, or this one >>by Creeley? Keep in mind that very few poets can be kept in print due to the >>tiny volume of buyers, and after these guys are gone, there will have to be a >>rationale of worth. I WANT TO LIKE CREELEY! >> >>Right at this point I think Baraka's poem is more likely to be kept around. >>It's a litany of the black left's historical grievances. I even figured out >>the Jeffrey Dahmer line last night. He's saying that Dahmer is completely >>insane, and anybody who couldn't see that, isn't, so in a sense he's >>indicting >>the entire judicial system from the judges on down to the locksmith. You can >>agree or disagree with Baraka's poem, and you can work with it from a >>historical viewpoint in a class. Introducing this poem to a class, what on >>earth would you say to a group of sophomores who know nothing about poetry to >>introduce them to this poem? the best thing I've read is Charles' idea that >>"identity becomes communal" after all the names are listed. I really liked >>that idea, and it helped open the poem to me some. A crack. But these poems >>are tough pistachio nuts to crack indeed, and I don't think any of my >>sophomores would survive them. The dropout rate would be 99%. >> >>-- Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 11:52:13 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Corbett Subject: Re: A political point of view, sorry. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I agree muchly. Thanks, Timothy. -- Robert Corbett, Ph.C. "Given the distance of communication, Coordinator of New Programs I hope the words aren't idling on the B40D Gerberding map of my fingertips, but igniting the Phone: (206) 616-0657 wild acres within the probabilities of Fax: (206) 685-3218 spelling" - Rosmarie Waldrop UW Box: 351237 On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, Stephen Vincent wrote: > Thanks for putting this up, Timothy. K O's 'colorless' point of view > continues to strike me as a blind sink hole, which, at its best (on this > list), works as a counterfoil to ignite refreshing, multi-centric > evaluations - such as the one you present here. > > Stephen V > > > > > > on 1/6/04 9:52 AM, Timothy Yu at tyu@STANFORD.EDU wrote: > > > My response a few days ago to posts by Kirby Olson and others on > > divisions or "separatism" within the left was not meant to suggest > > that Kirby or anyone else was actively advocating the expulsion of > > all minorities from the U.S. But it was meant to suggest that much > > of this discussion seems grounded in a nostalgia for a culture free > > of conflict and difference--a nostalgia that is being expressed > > largely, here as elsewhere, through an anxiety about the "foreign." > > > > So while I appreciate Kirby's efforts to clarify his position in > > response to what I said, I'm still disturbed by statements like > > Kirby's from yesterday ("Denmark and Sweden have a lot more foreign > > influx than Finland does, and consequently more problems"); or, in > > the parallel Lord of the Rings discussion, something like Matt > > Keenan's suggestion that Tolkien writes "of a time when there wasn't > > a question at all of there being races per se...Wasn't it a better > > world in a way?" > > > > I guess I am "misreading" Kirby's, Haas Bianchi's, and others' posts, > > in the sense that they are motivated by the ostensibly larger goal of > > articulating a unifying strategy for the American left; but what I > > can't help continuing to see is the ways in which such discussions of > > disunity tend to regard racial, gender, and sexual difference as > > somehow responsible for the left's divisions. Kirby's > > position--that, say, a lesbian and a Black Muslim could not even > > speak to each other--strikes me as far more pessimistic and > > essentializing than anything an activist of either group might > > believe, if only because members of such groups don't enjoy the > > luxury of leading entire lives untouched by those who are not like > > them. > > > > In short, the logic that blames minority or feminist groups for the > > left's disunity is perverse: ethnic and feminist activism arises > > precisely because such groups have previously been considered outside > > political discourse, and "identity politics," however maligned it may > > be now, has to be understood as a response to a political system that > > first constructs racial, gender, and sexual categories and then fails > > to extend citizenship equally to all of them. > > > > What we've seen over the past three decades is not some kind of > > splintering but an emergence of new groups and sources of energy on > > the left, along with the sometimes difficult process of understanding > > how, if at all, such new organizations can work with more hidebound > > ones like the Democratic Party. It's often claimed that contemporary > > college students are politically apathetic and inert, but I think it > > would be more accurate to say that students are much more likely > > today to become active around specific issues--the environment, > > university labor relations, affirmative action--and the left has to > > embrace this new landscape and form coalitions across it rather than > > bemoaning it and waiting for the emergence of a new political > > messiah. The Dean campaign, driven in part by opposition to the Iraq > > war but now sprouting tables and buttons on campuses everywhere, is a > > great example. > > > > Finally, I'm glad Kirby brought up Charles Olson. What's most > > interesting to me in Olson is not those moments where he's trying to > > hold it all together (in Poundian, authoritarian fashion) but those > > more diffuse moments where the poetic landscape turns into a kind of > > map you can wander around in without being told where to go. It's > > less the epic and assimilative than the local and personal--thinking > > through, rather than somehow beyond, identities--that appeals to me > > in Olson's work--the sense of working in a very particular (even > > marginal) place and situation, and that you can't write a Republic > > without sitting in a little gloom on Watch-House Point. > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 09:06:42 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Salmon Subject: FW: Eats, shoots and leaves. In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit This reminds me of the age old joke about the 'kiwi' male (both bird and human) who 'eats, roots and leaves'. Probably lost on puzzled Americans who think of a kiwi as a small greenish brown fruit - known here as a 'Chinese gooseberry' - or 'kiwifruit'. Dan > on 7/1/04 8:39, L-Soft list server at University at Buffalo (1.8e) at > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU wrote: > >> The book is dedicated to "the memory of the striking >> Bolshevik printers of St. Petersburg," who, Ms. Truss >> writes, "in 1905 demanded to be paid the same rate for >> punctuation marks as for letters, and thereby directly >> precipitated the first Russian Revolution." As for its >> title, it comes from a joke that begins, "A panda walks >> into a cafe." >> >> The panda orders a sandwich, eats it and then fires a gun >> into the air. On his way out, he tosses a badly punctuated >> wildlife manual at the confused bartender and directs him >> to the entry marked "Panda." >> >> Whereupon the bartender reads: "Panda. Large >> black-and-white bearlike mammal, native to China. Eats, >> shoots and leaves." >> >> http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/05/books/ >> 05GRAM.html?ex=1074284274&ei=1&en=9c19ed11b4d3befd > > -- >dan salmon >> director room8 Ltd>Mobile>021 394 311 >> Fax>+21 559 586 >email dan@room8.co.nz >> Po Box 34 716 Birkenhead > > This email and any files transmitted with it are privileged, confidential, > subject to copyright and intended solely for the use of the individual or > entity to whom they are addressed. Any unauthorised use, copying, review or > disclosure is prohibited. Please notify the sender immediately if you have > received this communication in error. Thank you for your assistance and > co-operation. > ------ End of Forwarded Message ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 15:56:42 -0500 Reply-To: olsonjk@delhi.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kirby Olson Organization: SUNY Delhi Subject: Re: A political point of view, sorry. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Timothy, you make a very good point here, but still, if I might -- I am complaining about different kinds of separatism -- the separatism of Farrakhan, for instance, and the separatism of someone like Andrea Dworkin (I'm not sure what Dworkin is -- she has a boyfriend named John Stoltenberg, who claims he is not a man -- what does that make them?? They are both against sex, and believe that hugging is where it's at.). So yes, I am with you when you say that there has to be tensions, and even stiffness, but can the tensions sustain separatism? In the early Republic, there is the Bill of Rights that allows the establishment of different religious faiths, and permits everyone to speak -- and there is states' rights -- but it doesn't permit secession. And I see many groups on the left attempting a sort of secession from the polity, with a concomittant attempt to silence other groups, or to reduce their standing, as a kind of reversal of the identity politics practised against them earlier on. This kind of thing is what has driven white men out of the democratic party. Once they are gone, who's going to be the next impurity that needs to be driven out? There is a logic of scapegoating here (it is also going on in the Tolkien thread, I think) but it is going on in left culture generally. It has been going on since I have been an adult. I went to Evergreen State College in the 70s and already there were women-only concerts (although the funding was paid for by state taxes). This logic of scapegoating has troubled me for a very long time. It is an ad hominem attack -- you cannot speak, or even be present -- because of your gender. There were many liberals in South Africa, and I don't know Tolkien's precise position -- but to push him out of the possibility of being heard, or to simplify his art, on the basis of being from South Africa is terrifying to me. That it can be done almost without thought at this point is what's scary to me. Still, I take your point, but not its application. You make a very good point, too, about the problems when I discuss Sweden and Denmark versus Finland. Sweden has let in as many as 8000 political dissidents from African countries in a single year. Finland allows an annual number of about 35 from around the globe (that was the number when I was there). The real problem is that with such a huge influx as in Sweden there are a tremendous number of knifings. It's actuarial. There are just simply more crimes going in both directions when you have diffeent groups living together. In Finland where you have very few people who are clearly from elsewhere you have nevertheless another kind of problem. If you are a foreigner you are very clearly visible, and tend to take the heat of aggression from an amazing number of people. I was clearly not a Finn -- I have somewhat darker skin (I don't know why, I am Norwegian American -- perhaps some throwback to an ancestor who was abducted in the 9th century from a peaceful Mediterranean beach or something by a Viking berserker) and my father has jet black hair. I was constantly harassed by nut-cases, and challenged to fights. 99% of Finns were actually really nice to me and perhaps BECAUSE of my genetic difference, women were more interested in me there. But the nut-case men made it very difficult to go into bars. Almost every time I went in I was harassed and challenged to a fight. My question is can we have a society that is not based on scapegoating, or calling someone absolutely and perversely evil? Bataille and the College of Sociology theorists said, no, we cannot. I think we have to find a way to do it -- not through scapegoating, but somehow through humor, and appreciation, but we also have to realize that everybody in this process is nervous and paranoid, as the likelihood given human history is that we are on our way toward endless scapegoating, with one group after another thrown into the ovens. I am fascinated by the case of New York City. Almost all of my students are from there. There are Guatemalans, Haitians, Puerto Ricans, and everything else imaginable. In talking of this they have said that they have their own neighborhoods, and they don't mix. Even inside of Spanish neighborhoods, the Guatemalans and the Dominicans will have nothing to do with one another. They just shrug over this. Maybe I should, too. Does anybody have time to watch the very good Lincoln documentary on PBS just now? It's six hours, and the first 2 were last night. He was roused out of his lethargy by the attempt to annex Kansas and Nebraska into the slave territory. He had debates with a man who's famous but whose name I forget, and the man was arguing that each state should decide for itself, and said in fact that might makes right. That if you have the votes for slavery, then the majority should decide. Lincoln made a brilliant move, and said, "Right makes might." This was a brilliant almost martial arts move I felt. But to make this move he could count on Christianity as being a uniting force. He could count on the idea that everybody felt that there was a universal spirit, and that each of us were immortal, and not to be treated as a mere means, but rather as an end in ourselves. But WHAT COMMON thing do we still have that would allow for this? In what way can we assert universal human rights in these times? I think we have mostly decided that whatever anybody wants is right in this age of relativism. Is it possible to have any kind of a standard? Some of my friends now even think it's ok to have sex with children. I say no way, and they say, why not? What standard would say that you can't do that? I think if we could come up with a universal sense of standards we can live together. If we can't even agree that children are sacrosanct, then I don't know what to do. I think Lincoln would know how to put all this into better words. -- Kirby Timothy Yu wrote: > My response a few days ago to posts by Kirby Olson and others on > divisions or "separatism" within the left was not meant to suggest > that Kirby or anyone else was actively advocating the expulsion of > all minorities from the U.S. But it was meant to suggest that much > of this discussion seems grounded in a nostalgia for a culture free > of conflict and difference--a nostalgia that is being expressed > largely, here as elsewhere, through an anxiety about the "foreign." > > So while I appreciate Kirby's efforts to clarify his position in > response to what I said, I'm still disturbed by statements like > Kirby's from yesterday ("Denmark and Sweden have a lot more foreign > influx than Finland does, and consequently more problems"); or, in > the parallel Lord of the Rings discussion, something like Matt > Keenan's suggestion that Tolkien writes "of a time when there wasn't > a question at all of there being races per se...Wasn't it a better > world in a way?" > > I guess I am "misreading" Kirby's, Haas Bianchi's, and others' posts, > in the sense that they are motivated by the ostensibly larger goal of > articulating a unifying strategy for the American left; but what I > can't help continuing to see is the ways in which such discussions of > disunity tend to regard racial, gender, and sexual difference as > somehow responsible for the left's divisions. Kirby's > position--that, say, a lesbian and a Black Muslim could not even > speak to each other--strikes me as far more pessimistic and > essentializing than anything an activist of either group might > believe, if only because members of such groups don't enjoy the > luxury of leading entire lives untouched by those who are not like > them. > > In short, the logic that blames minority or feminist groups for the > left's disunity is perverse: ethnic and feminist activism arises > precisely because such groups have previously been considered outside > political discourse, and "identity politics," however maligned it may > be now, has to be understood as a response to a political system that > first constructs racial, gender, and sexual categories and then fails > to extend citizenship equally to all of them. > > What we've seen over the past three decades is not some kind of > splintering but an emergence of new groups and sources of energy on > the left, along with the sometimes difficult process of understanding > how, if at all, such new organizations can work with more hidebound > ones like the Democratic Party. It's often claimed that contemporary > college students are politically apathetic and inert, but I think it > would be more accurate to say that students are much more likely > today to become active around specific issues--the environment, > university labor relations, affirmative action--and the left has to > embrace this new landscape and form coalitions across it rather than > bemoaning it and waiting for the emergence of a new political > messiah. The Dean campaign, driven in part by opposition to the Iraq > war but now sprouting tables and buttons on campuses everywhere, is a > great example. > > Finally, I'm glad Kirby brought up Charles Olson. What's most > interesting to me in Olson is not those moments where he's trying to > hold it all together (in Poundian, authoritarian fashion) but those > more diffuse moments where the poetic landscape turns into a kind of > map you can wander around in without being told where to go. It's > less the epic and assimilative than the local and personal--thinking > through, rather than somehow beyond, identities--that appeals to me > in Olson's work--the sense of working in a very particular (even > marginal) place and situation, and that you can't write a Republic > without sitting in a little gloom on Watch-House Point. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 15:52:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetry Project Subject: Wed. 1/7/04 Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thanks to everyone who made it out for the 30th Annual New Year=B9s Day Marathon Reading. We had a blast (albeit a delirious one, by 2 a.m.!), and ended up raising money, which is of course a great thing. Thanks also goes to all the volunteers=8Bwithout you (sob sob), ah we=B9d be nothing. Have a great New Year. And coming up tomorrow evening: * Wednesday, January 7, 2004 Chris Edgar & Lisa Jarnot Chris Edgar=B9s first collection of poems is At Port Royal (Adventures of Poetry, 2003). His poems have appeared in The Germ, Shiny, Double Change, Sal Mimeo, and other journals, as well as in the Best American Poetry 2000 and 2001. He is an editor of The Hat, the translator of Tolstoy as Teacher: Leo Tolstoy's Writings on Education (Teachers & Writers, 2000), and Publications Director of Teachers & Writers Collaborative. He lives in Brooklyn. Lisa Jarnot is the author of Some Other Kind of Mission, Ring of Fire, and Black Dog Songs. Her biography of Robert Duncan will be published by University of California Press in 2005. She currently lives in New York City and teaches at Marymount Manhattan College. [8:00 p.m.] * ALERT: The great Nuyorican poet Pedro Pietri has been diagnosed with inoperable stomach cancer and seeks to raise funds to be treated at a renowned cancer clinic abroad. He has vowed to fight the disease by alternative methods. The New York poetry community has risen to the challenge and is participating in a series of events being organized around the city. Pedro Pietri is best known for his book of poetry, Puerto Rican Obituary, from Month Review Press, 1973, which is in its 10th printing, and has been translated into 13 languages. Pedro Pietri is also known as an innovated playwright. He is one of the original founders of the Nuyorican Poetry movement and was poet laureate of the Young Lords Party, and was an active participant in th= e effort to remove the U.S. Navy from the island of Vieques, Puerto Rico. =8A The series of events kicked off at the Bowery Poetry Club on Sunday, January 4th, 2004; 12 Noon-4 PM. UPCOMING EVENTS INCLUDE: =8A The Nuyorican Poets Caf=E9 on Tuesday, January 06, 2004; 7-9 PM =8A The Nuyorican Poets Caf=E9 on Wednesday, January 21, 2004; 7-9 PM =8A Taller Boricua (at the Julia de Burgos Cultural Center) on Thursday, February 12, 2004; 7PM-Midnight The Nuyorican Poets Caf=E9 is collecting funds on behalf of Pedro Pietri. The cost of treatment at minimum is about $30,000. An individual contribution of a $1,000 (tax deductible) would be most helpful. However, any contribution will be deeply appreciated. Please make checks payable to: Nuyorican Poets Caf=E9, Inc., with memo: Pedro Pietri Health Benefit Fund c/o Nuyorican Poets Cafe P.O. Box 20794 New York, New York 10009 =20 Checks and donations can also be mailed to or dropped off at the Poetry Project offices (see below for address): * The Poetry Project is located at St. Mark's Church-in-the-Bowery 131 East 10th Street at Second Avenue New York City 10003 Trains: 6, F, N, R, and L. info@poetryproject.com www.poetryproject.com Admission is $8, $7 for students/seniors and $5 for members (though now those who take out a membership at $85 or higher will get in free to all regular readings). We are wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. For more info call 212-674-0910.=20 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 16:02:18 -0500 Reply-To: olsonjk@delhi.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kirby Olson Organization: SUNY Delhi Subject: Re: Creeley? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Charles Alexander -- you wrote: > I have absolutely no inclination to compare something like this to "Ode to > the West Wind" or to a Shakespeare play? Why do you think we should? I'd > suggest, as you are developing your own thinking about what matters in > poetry (and hopefully you're not just canon-building), leave a place for > the sudden, the open, the work seemingly without opening or closure. And > refer to Aristotle all you want, but don't think his standards are absolute > in any way, or perhaps even all that appropriate for a post-nuclear literature. > -- Only so many books can survive. Those which do have to have a relevance to the nation, or have to be argued for as such. Usually they will survive as text books. We can't save everything. We also can't make books if only five people are interested in them. To survive, a book has to be of interest to a great number of people. Criticism is canonization. I will keep reading Creeley. I like Hollo and Codrescu enormously. I like Creeley a lot as a person though I've had limited contact, and I have loved two poems and one essay. It is just a work that has a very different spirit from my own I think. So I will have to work at it, but the amount of love others have had for the work is encouraging. I will keep at it, and I guess I will even shut up on the topic until I read a few hundred pages, and some more criticism. I hope others will keep talking about him. I am getting some footholds from the conversation. -- Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:59:31 -0800 Reply-To: "shannacompton@earthlink.net" Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "shannacompton@earthlink.net" Subject: Tonight: Soft Skull at the Bowery Poetry Club, plus Karaoke + Poety = Fun! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tuesday, January 6 2004 7:00pm Soft Skull authors reviewed by the New York Times in 2003 read together at the Bowery Poetry Club in NYC: Andrew Lewis Conn, Jenny Davidson, Daniel Nester, and Matthew Sharpe. The authors of P, Heredity, God Save My Queen and The Sleeping Father read tonight at the Bowery Poetry Club in celebration of the recognition they received in 2003 from the estimable New York Times Book Review (among other places)! Catch it if you can! And afterward it's Karaoke + Poetry = Fun hosted by Daniel Nester and Regie Cabico. Always a hoot and a snootful of rocking verse and tunes. 308 Bowery New York, NY 10012 (Between Bleecker and Houston) (212) 614-0505 http://www.bowerypoetry.com $5 and $3 beer (selection by the Club--check with bartender!) Cheers, Shanna _____________________________ Shanna Compton http://www.shannacompton.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 16:15:11 -0500 Reply-To: Geoffrey Gatza Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Geoffrey Gatza Subject: Re: Creeley? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kirby relax and enjoy him while we can. Creeley will survive whether you, or I, find him relevant or not :-) I do, and find him to be a wonderful breeze on a brisk winter day. Best, Geoffrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirby Olson" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 4:02 PM Subject: Re: Creeley? > > Charles Alexander -- you wrote: > > > > > I have absolutely no inclination to compare something like this to "Ode to > > the West Wind" or to a Shakespeare play? Why do you think we should? I'd > > suggest, as you are developing your own thinking about what matters in > > poetry (and hopefully you're not just canon-building), leave a place for > > the sudden, the open, the work seemingly without opening or closure. And > > refer to Aristotle all you want, but don't think his standards are absolute > > in any way, or perhaps even all that appropriate for a post-nuclear literature. > > > > -- Only so many books can survive. Those which do have to have a relevance to the > nation, or have to be argued for as such. Usually they will survive as text > books. We can't save everything. We also can't make books if only five people are > interested in them. To survive, a book has to be of interest to a great number of > people. Criticism is canonization. > > I will keep reading Creeley. I like Hollo and Codrescu enormously. I like Creeley > a lot as a person though I've had limited contact, and I have loved two poems and > one essay. > > It is just a work that has a very different spirit from my own I think. So I will > have to work at it, but the amount of love others have had for the work is > encouraging. I will keep at it, and I guess I will even shut up on the topic until > I read a few hundred pages, and some more criticism. > > I hope others will keep talking about him. I am getting some footholds from the > conversation. > > -- Kirby > > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 17:03:55 -0500 Reply-To: az421@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rob McLennan Subject: new on rob's clever blog Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT new(ish) on rob mclennan's clever blog "adventures in poetry, or something" (January 2004) "yes, i HAVE published a lot of stuff: a dozen reasons why i will not apologize -- a schizophrenic text for a talk i will probably not follow" (aforehand text for a Toronto Speak-easy talk, October 2003) http://www.robmclennan.blogspot.com/ -- poet/editor/pub. ... ed. STANZAS mag & side/lines: a new canadian poetics (Insomniac)...pub., above/ground press ...coord.,SPAN-O + ottawa small press fair ...8th coll'n - red earth (Black Moss) ...c/o RR#1 Maxville ON K0C 1T0 www.track0.com/rob_mclennan * http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 17:09:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david benedetti Subject: Re: looking for Jim Hartz... In-Reply-To: <3396518598.1064253440@dial236.dial.unm.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Anyone have info on contacting Jim Hartz who ran the San Francisco State poetry center a long time ago? My last address for him was Tennessee, but that no longer works.... Please backchannel his email address or phone or location. thanks, David Benedetti dbenedet@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 16:14:12 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: A political point of view, sorry. Comments: To: olsonjk@delhi.edu In-Reply-To: <3FFB210A.34102696@delhi.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed If you think real hard you can probably come up with relatively homogenious countries where there's been a fair amount of slaughter--hey, ever read the Icelandic Sagas?--and even some modern ones. Finland's modern history is a bit less rosy than you paint it. Finland's fascist government lost its war, and 2/5 of its territory, to the Soviet Union. At the earliest opportunity thereafter it allied itself with Germany: Finnish troops fought alongside German troops for the next severalk years. They didn't off their own Jews, but they didn't much care what their allies did to Russian and Polish Jews. But Finland's problems have never been ours, since we've never been particularly homogenious. In 1665, when New Amsterdam became New York, 18 languages were spoken on Manhattan, Delaware spoke Swedish and Pennsylvania German, and the major conflicts among European settlers were between Englishmen in Nedw England. I'd suggest that the exclusivity and violence you ascribe to heterogeneity has more to do with poverty. Guatemalan and Dominican immigrants who make it into the middle class get along just fine. As to the theory of community origins you cite, I'd suggest that familial or small clan bonds of affection combined with the survival advantage of cooperation might have been more important than exclusivity. And by the way, polyglot New York has one of the lowest violent crime rates in the country. Mark PS Do you really think that Farrakhan's followers vote democratic, or vote atr all? At 03:56 PM 1/6/2004 -0500, Kirby Olson wrote: >Timothy, you make a very good point here, but still, if I might -- I am >complaining about different kinds of separatism -- the separatism of >Farrakhan, for instance, and the separatism of someone like Andrea >Dworkin (I'm not sure what Dworkin is -- she has a boyfriend named John >Stoltenberg, who claims he is not a man -- what does that make them?? >They are both against sex, and believe that hugging is where it's at.). >So yes, I am with you when you say that there has to be tensions, and >even stiffness, but can the tensions sustain separatism? In the early >Republic, there is the Bill of Rights that allows the establishment of >different religious faiths, and permits everyone to speak -- and there is >states' rights -- but it doesn't permit secession. And I see many groups >on the left attempting a sort of secession from the polity, with a >concomittant attempt to silence other groups, or to reduce their >standing, as a kind of reversal of the identity politics practised >against them earlier on. This kind of thing is what has driven white men >out of the democratic party. Once they are gone, who's going to be the >next impurity that needs to be driven out? There is a logic of >scapegoating here (it is also going on in the Tolkien thread, I think) >but it is going on in left culture generally. It has been going on since >I have been an adult. I went to Evergreen State College in the 70s and >already there were women-only concerts (although the funding was paid for >by state taxes). This logic of scapegoating has troubled me for a very >long time. It is an ad hominem attack -- you cannot speak, or even be >present -- because of your gender. There were many liberals in South >Africa, and I don't know Tolkien's precise position -- but to push him >out of the possibility of being heard, or to simplify his art, on the >basis of being from South Africa is terrifying to me. That it can be >done almost without thought at this point is what's scary to me. Still, >I take your point, but not its application. > >You make a very good point, too, about the problems when I discuss Sweden >and Denmark versus Finland. Sweden has let in as many as 8000 political >dissidents from African countries in a single year. Finland allows an >annual number of about 35 from around the globe (that was the number when >I was there). The real problem is that with such a huge influx as in >Sweden there are a tremendous number of knifings. It's actuarial. There >are just simply more crimes going in both directions when you have >diffeent groups living together. In Finland where you have very few >people who are clearly from elsewhere you have nevertheless another kind >of problem. If you are a foreigner you are very clearly visible, and >tend to take the heat of aggression from an amazing number of people. I >was clearly not a Finn -- I have somewhat darker skin (I don't know why, >I am Norwegian American -- perhaps some throwback to an ancestor who was >abducted in the 9th century from a peaceful Mediterranean beach or >something by a Viking berserker) and my father has jet black hair. I was >constantly harassed by nut-cases, and challenged to fights. 99% of Finns >were actually really nice to me and perhaps BECAUSE of my genetic >difference, women were more interested in me there. But the nut-case men >made it very difficult to go into bars. Almost every time I went in I >was harassed and challenged to a fight. > >My question is can we have a society that is not based on scapegoating, >or calling someone absolutely and perversely evil? Bataille and the >College of Sociology theorists said, no, we cannot. I think we have to >find a way to do it -- not through scapegoating, but somehow through >humor, and appreciation, but we also have to realize that everybody in >this process is nervous and paranoid, as the likelihood given human >history is that we are on our way toward endless scapegoating, with one >group after another thrown into the ovens. I am fascinated by the case of >New York City. Almost all of my students are from there. There are >Guatemalans, Haitians, Puerto Ricans, and everything else imaginable. In >talking of this they have said that they have their own neighborhoods, >and they don't mix. Even inside of Spanish neighborhoods, the >Guatemalans and the Dominicans will have nothing to do with one another. >They just shrug over this. Maybe I should, too. > >Does anybody have time to watch the very good Lincoln documentary on PBS >just now? It's six hours, and the first 2 were last night. He was >roused out of his lethargy by the attempt to annex Kansas and Nebraska >into the slave territory. He had debates with a man who's famous but >whose name I forget, and the man was arguing that each state should >decide for itself, and said in fact that might makes right. That if you >have the votes for slavery, then the majority should decide. Lincoln >made a brilliant move, and said, "Right makes might." > >This was a brilliant almost martial arts move I felt. But to make this >move he could count on Christianity as being a uniting force. He could >count on the idea that everybody felt that there was a universal spirit, >and that each of us were immortal, and not to be treated as a mere means, >but rather as an end in ourselves. > >But WHAT COMMON thing do we still have that would allow for this? In >what way can we assert universal human rights in these times? I think we >have mostly decided that whatever anybody wants is right in this age of >relativism. Is it possible to have any kind of a standard? Some of my >friends now even think it's ok to have sex with children. I say no way, >and they say, why not? What standard would say that you can't do that? I >think if we could come up with a universal sense of standards we can live >together. If we can't even agree that children are sacrosanct, then I >don't know what to do. I think Lincoln would know how to put all this >into better words. > >-- Kirby > > > >Timothy Yu wrote: > > > My response a few days ago to posts by Kirby Olson and others on > > divisions or "separatism" within the left was not meant to suggest > > that Kirby or anyone else was actively advocating the expulsion of > > all minorities from the U.S. But it was meant to suggest that much > > of this discussion seems grounded in a nostalgia for a culture free > > of conflict and difference--a nostalgia that is being expressed > > largely, here as elsewhere, through an anxiety about the "foreign." > > > > So while I appreciate Kirby's efforts to clarify his position in > > response to what I said, I'm still disturbed by statements like > > Kirby's from yesterday ("Denmark and Sweden have a lot more foreign > > influx than Finland does, and consequently more problems"); or, in > > the parallel Lord of the Rings discussion, something like Matt > > Keenan's suggestion that Tolkien writes "of a time when there wasn't > > a question at all of there being races per se...Wasn't it a better > > world in a way?" > > > > I guess I am "misreading" Kirby's, Haas Bianchi's, and others' posts, > > in the sense that they are motivated by the ostensibly larger goal of > > articulating a unifying strategy for the American left; but what I > > can't help continuing to see is the ways in which such discussions of > > disunity tend to regard racial, gender, and sexual difference as > > somehow responsible for the left's divisions. Kirby's > > position--that, say, a lesbian and a Black Muslim could not even > > speak to each other--strikes me as far more pessimistic and > > essentializing than anything an activist of either group might > > believe, if only because members of such groups don't enjoy the > > luxury of leading entire lives untouched by those who are not like > > them. > > > > In short, the logic that blames minority or feminist groups for the > > left's disunity is perverse: ethnic and feminist activism arises > > precisely because such groups have previously been considered outside > > political discourse, and "identity politics," however maligned it may > > be now, has to be understood as a response to a political system that > > first constructs racial, gender, and sexual categories and then fails > > to extend citizenship equally to all of them. > > > > What we've seen over the past three decades is not some kind of > > splintering but an emergence of new groups and sources of energy on > > the left, along with the sometimes difficult process of understanding > > how, if at all, such new organizations can work with more hidebound > > ones like the Democratic Party. It's often claimed that contemporary > > college students are politically apathetic and inert, but I think it > > would be more accurate to say that students are much more likely > > today to become active around specific issues--the environment, > > university labor relations, affirmative action--and the left has to > > embrace this new landscape and form coalitions across it rather than > > bemoaning it and waiting for the emergence of a new political > > messiah. The Dean campaign, driven in part by opposition to the Iraq > > war but now sprouting tables and buttons on campuses everywhere, is a > > great example. > > > > Finally, I'm glad Kirby brought up Charles Olson. What's most > > interesting to me in Olson is not those moments where he's trying to > > hold it all together (in Poundian, authoritarian fashion) but those > > more diffuse moments where the poetic landscape turns into a kind of > > map you can wander around in without being told where to go. It's > > less the epic and assimilative than the local and personal--thinking > > through, rather than somehow beyond, identities--that appeals to me > > in Olson's work--the sense of working in a very particular (even > > marginal) place and situation, and that you can't write a Republic > > without sitting in a little gloom on Watch-House Point. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 21:48:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: A political point of view, sorry. Comments: To: Kirby Olson In-Reply-To: <3FFB210A.34102696@delhi.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, Kirby Olson wrote: > Timothy, you make a very good point here, but still, if I might -- I am > complaining about different kinds of separatism -- the separatism of > Farrakhan, for instance, and the separatism of someone like Andrea > Dworkin (I'm not sure what Dworkin is -- she has a boyfriend named John > Stoltenberg, who claims he is not a man -- what does that make them?? Threats to the very fabric of the universe, obviously. Nice use of argumentum ad hominem. > They are both against sex, and believe that hugging is where it's at.). And the Gubernator of California is in favor of sex and believes that groping is where it's at. I'd frankly rather be stuck in an elevator with Dworkin and Stoltenberg. Gwyn McVay ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 21:54:58 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Craig Allen Conrad Subject: poet Cid Corman needs our help MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Frank Sherlock has just written about Cid Corman's condition and the fund drive to aid his recovery. he includes the MP3 file of the amazing webcast with Cid Corman that Frank Sherlock and Fran Ryan hosted on the Penn campus. during Q&A you'll hear Gil Ott, another pretty fantastic poet who is also in the hospital doing his best to recover from a stroke. to read the post, go to: http://phillysound.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 21:08:53 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brent Bechtel Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Janet_bastes_you_in_souffl=E9s.?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Janet bastes you in soufflés. Settle Janet - see, if you let them, they utterly terrorize the massage. Napkins, plates - some figurines could be nice next to our seats. Make some simple, natural sounds - smiling, cooking a highway. Museums? - Now they'll see you more - They'll make small problems; to solve them, oh, it will take generations to wiggle and move. Presents just slide the supper to collateral, nevermind how pretty - try naming prayers - comforting horned owls sends me into an itch. [Brent Bechtel] ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 20:25:35 -0700 Reply-To: derek beaulieu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: derek beaulieu Subject: REMINDER: filling Station Call for Submissions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit REMINDER: filling Station Call for Submissions filling Station's first issue in 2004 will be our 30th issue. To commemorate our longevity and our success as one of the few independent literary magazines in Calgary, and in Canada for that matter, we plan to publish only Calgary writers, and as many Calgary writers as we can fit. When I say Calgary writer, I mean anyone who has spent any time in Calgary in the past decade or so; anyone who started in Calgary and moved on, anyone who recently came to Calgary and anyone who has played some role in the Calgary literary community filling Station calls home. Send your writing now! Stop me before I write Calgary again... Send poems, short stories and other creative prose-type things (along with a short bio and SASE) to: filling Station PO Box 22135 Bankers Hall Calgary, AB T2P 4J5 DEADLINE: JANUARY 31, 2004 If we're not likely to know your name, please mention your Calgary connection in your cover letter. Natalie Simpson Managing Editor www.fillingstation.ca Please forward this message to anyone who may be interested. Thank you! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 20:23:52 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Quartermain Subject: JESS [1923-2004] MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Right now I have no details, but sadly, I report the death, two or three days ago in San Francisco, of the great visionary painter and paste-up artist Jess, for forty years companion to Robert Duncan. Robin Blaser spoke of Jess and Duncan, of "their world of IMAGINATION, which had no walls." Jess's dying ends something, his and Duncan's world so much a part of mine; that world is now, if not gone, at the very least shifted, but the potentiality and potence of the actual life, that which I think constiututes the paradisal, the continuous opening of possibility, is in this instance and kind gone. We all, of course, have to find our own paradise, and there are many; Duncan and Jess both and together are guides, for their promise always stays. Meredith and I have taken Jess's _Translations_ and the catalogue _Jess: A Grand Collage_, down from the shelves, that they can the pair of them dwell with us and grace us this oddly snowy day in Vancouver. And feel blessed. ======================================= Peter Quartermain 846 Keefer Street Vancouver B.C. Canada V6A 1Y7 voice 604 255 8274 fax 604 255 8204 quarterm@interchange.ubc.ca ======================================= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 00:20:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Kilroy was here MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Kilroy was here I was here but I disappear. Anti-colonialist fabric. Distributions of inscriptions across the still obdurate medieval city. Resend the images. There are never too many warnings, there are always too many. I speak from the fragility of the heart of empire, Kilroy of the future anterior. This is written in Berlin, 1946. This is written in New York, 1943. This is written in Jerusalem, 1898. I am Crisis-The-City-of-God. http://www.asondheim.org/Kilroy.jpg http://www.asondheim.org/Kilroy.png _ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 21:33:05 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jerrold Shiroma [ duration press ]" Subject: Re: JESS [1923-2004] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit was just looking at his work this past week...sad to hear this... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Quartermain" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 8:23 PM Subject: JESS [1923-2004] > Right now I have no details, but sadly, I report the death, two or three > days ago in San Francisco, of the great visionary painter and paste-up > artist Jess, for forty years companion to Robert Duncan. Robin Blaser spoke > of Jess and Duncan, of "their world of IMAGINATION, which had no walls." > Jess's dying ends something, his and Duncan's world so much a part of mine; > that world is now, if not gone, at the very least shifted, but the > potentiality and potence of the actual life, that which I think constiututes > the paradisal, the continuous opening of possibility, is in this instance > and kind gone. We all, of course, have to find our own paradise, and there > are many; Duncan and Jess both and together are guides, for their promise > always stays. > > Meredith and I have taken Jess's _Translations_ and the catalogue _Jess: A > Grand Collage_, down from the shelves, that they can the pair of them dwell > with us and grace us this oddly snowy day in Vancouver. And feel blessed. > > ======================================= > Peter Quartermain > 846 Keefer Street > Vancouver B.C. > Canada V6A 1Y7 > > voice 604 255 8274 > fax 604 255 8204 > quarterm@interchange.ubc.ca > ======================================= > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 00:51:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: page two MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Page Two [home] For one thing it's a process of natural selection - did I already say that? What produces returns, returns. It's a question of identity, not equivalence, the same must return to the same, in which case the mutation is successful. Otherwise the language stretches farther out on a limb, there's always new testing going on. There you are. Just sent out a version of this on the lists. There's room here... placing it online somewhere... ... I've been taking thyroid pills for the past two days - they seem to work, and my energy is better than it has been. Meanwhile I've done two images relating to Kilroy was here - and I'm interested in that phrase, which I think was common in WWII - related to I was here but I disappear in The Harder they Come. There's a whole phenomenology of signing and distribution here - and signing in urban environments connects class with fuzzy boundaries; styles are picked up and transformed, local content remains fixed. Years ago I worked on contenting in the form of classical inscription which the intersection of a set and its negation formed a null set relativized by the content of the set. A terrific mathesis of the daily world results from this - a phenomenology (in the scientific sense) of inscription, maintenance, and so forth. You can look for classical and/or fuzzy boundaries anywhere, and the anonymous Kilroy was here spread everywhere carried, I think, by GIs - And working on some small new images on the Zaurus dealing with the 'leaking' of inscription, a byproduct of the sketch program I'm using. Between Adaptation and Woody Allen's Anything Else, I locate myself as a writer. Or between Celan and Jabes. These fields are related. Still on page two, after the news. _ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 01:34:18 -0500 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: Re: Species-ist not racist, yes? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Symbolism is for the symbol-minded. =20 George Carlin said that. I was born in the United States. Does that prove I have a racist mind? I was joking about the Irish interpretation of the Hobbits. My feet are of a relatively normal size and are not particularly hairy. While I am vertically challenged, I am well above five feet tall. Patrick -----Original Message----- From: Robert Corbett [mailto:rcorbett@u.washington.edu]=20 Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 1:40 PM To: Patrick Herron Cc: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Species-ist not racist, yes? Come on, Patrick, the very symbolism suggests a certain bad faith about race. And the fact that Tolkien was born in South Africa is even more suggestive. As far shifting race into "species," this is exactly how one makes the question unnerveracking. Race, not being biological, but actually sociological, is nervous making category because it is by definition unstable. To make it the biological category of species then renders it stable. To say that Tolkien wasn't messing with these ideas during the period of the Nazis and eugenics is naive. He almost couldn't help himself. The fact that the Hobbits may be irish doesn't exempt Tolkien either. The concept of labor aristocrats works for race as well. And its rather bigoted to say that because one likes one other, therefore you like them all ... when the logic actually is in reverse. Where I get off the bus on this question is the fact that Tolkien works in racialist imagery doesn't mean he shouldn't be read. Nor that there is exactly a clear message about race, nor that it is the most interesting aspect to the book. For me, it is the simplicity of the struggle, it's either/or ness, as well as its implicit resort to authoritarianism that bother. Tolkien was not a fascist, but he wasn't a Taoist either. I don't have time for the books anymore. Proust, among others, calls. But the film is a great achievement, which cannot be wished away regardless of politics and the transgression of translation. Robert --=20 Robert Corbett, Ph.C. "Given the distance of communication, Coordinator of New Programs I hope the words aren't idling on the B40D Gerberding map of my fingertips, but igniting the Phone: (206) 616-0657 wild acres within the probabilities of Fax: (206) 685-3218 spelling" - Rosmarie Waldrop UW Box: 351237 On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, Patrick Herron wrote: > LOTR uses the term "race" to denote species, not race in the sense=20 > that nervous white American university types in dashikis hold it. =20 > Orcs, hobbits, elves, trolls, etc., are never passed off as human in=20 > LOTR. > > "Race": as in the race of men, the human race, a race that knows no=20 > different between different walks of man. > > If you misunderstand that, it's your own race-nervousness that you're=20 > reading, not Tolkien's. His story, your interpretation. > > Humans, just as the other species in LOTR, are described as fatally=20 > flawed. Remember the struggle of LOTR: man's worst enemy is himself,=20 > in particular, his own lust for power. White black yellow brown red=20 > orange green purple pink and gray, it's the same struggle, isn't it? =20 > I think warning against power-lust is a good lesson, and definitely=20 > has ANTI-racist implications. More importantly it has anti-selfist=20 > implications. > > If the LOTR is racist, then who do the hobbits represent, the Irish?=20 > Short, happy, cute, friendly, living in a lush green boggy place, love > to drink? I'm really a Hobbit, metaphorically speaking? So Tolkien=20 > "the racist" thinks that the Irish, the inhuman Irish, saved the=20 > world? Hmmm. > > Oh, so Tolkien's "unconsciously" racist? And bringing up this very=20 > topic is NOT "unconsciously" racist? > > In literature, the West is typically the land of death, the land of=20 > the setting sun. As I understand it, and correct me if I am wrong,=20 > the sun sets in the west for all races of men, not just the English. > > Now what drives me batty about the LOTR is that it has this na=EFve=20 > sense of us vs. them, an unambiguous sense of good and evil. In our=20 > world, with the sole exception of the unambiguously evil Bush=20 > Administration, good and evil are largely perspectival, relative,=20 > convenient, ambiguous. But then, I guess it's reasonable, or at least=20 > a decidedly beneficial convenience, to consider anything that=20 > threatens the human race "evil." Like the Bush Administration. So I=20 > can't even criticise Tolkien on that dimension. > > It IS clear, not merely metaphorically clear, that the LOTR is=20 > anti-industrialist and anti-slavery. > > But, c'mon, let's face it, the very discussion lacks the barest thread > of credibility. > > Patrick > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 22:42:14 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: alexander saliby Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings and racism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ravi, You wrote:"...wasn't it the hobbits' ability to forgive Golem, a = murderer and debased, covetous creature, his tresspasses the reason for = the eventual redemption of Middle Earth and humanity?..." Well said, but, isn't the act of "forgiveness" of the transgressions of = another in itself a posturing of superiority? And is not the feeling of = superiority the essence of racism?=20 Alex ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Shankar, Ravi (English)=20 To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=20 Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 11:03 AM Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings and racism Just as codicil, irrespective of Tolkien's intentions, Peter Jackson's = rendition makes it clear that it's the "humans" versus the bestial = forces of "evil" - the sludge-birth of the orcs is testament enough - = and so when the final battle for Middle Earth transpires and other = humans in Middle Eastern and African garb appear, chucking spears and = spurring on elephants, hellbent on doing the Eye's vile will to oppose = the principals of goodness the fellowship represents, it's redolent of = some pretty overt racism. I think Jackson's version also betrays the = moral center of Tolkien's tale as I remember it - wasn't it the hobbits' = ability to forgive Golem, a murderer and debased, covetous creature, his = tresspasses the reason for the eventual redemption of Middle Earth and = humanity? Must have missed that in the movie.=20 -Ravi=20 *************** Ravi Shankar=20 Poet-in-Residence Assistant Professor CCSU - English Dept. 860-832-2766 shankarr@ccsu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 23:11:40 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings and racism In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hey, I know Tolkien as a medievalist--never read the fictions. But "Golem?" Covetous? Needs to be saved so earth can be redeemed? Are you kidding? Why didn't he just call the character "kike?" Mark At 10:42 PM 1/6/2004 -0800, alexander saliby wrote: >Ravi, >You wrote:"...wasn't it the hobbits' ability to forgive Golem, a murderer >and debased, covetous creature, his tresspasses the reason for the >eventual redemption of Middle Earth and humanity?..." > >Well said, but, isn't the act of "forgiveness" of the transgressions of >another in itself a posturing of superiority? And is not the feeling of >superiority the essence of racism? >Alex > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Shankar, Ravi (English) > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 11:03 AM > Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings and racism > > > Just as codicil, irrespective of Tolkien's intentions, Peter Jackson's > rendition makes it clear that it's the "humans" versus the bestial forces > of "evil" - the sludge-birth of the orcs is testament enough - and so > when the final battle for Middle Earth transpires and other humans in > Middle Eastern and African garb appear, chucking spears and spurring on > elephants, hellbent on doing the Eye's vile will to oppose the principals > of goodness the fellowship represents, it's redolent of some pretty overt > racism. I think Jackson's version also betrays the moral center of > Tolkien's tale as I remember it - wasn't it the hobbits' ability to > forgive Golem, a murderer and debased, covetous creature, his tresspasses > the reason for the eventual redemption of Middle Earth and humanity? Must > have missed that in the movie. > > -Ravi > > *************** > Ravi Shankar > Poet-in-Residence > Assistant Professor > CCSU - English Dept. > 860-832-2766 > shankarr@ccsu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 07:52:03 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings and racism In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20040106230942.01df1e30@mail.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" actually, when i read 2.5 of those weighty tomes in my childhood, the only character i could relate to was gollum, or whatever his name is. now i know why. At 11:11 PM -0800 1/6/04, Mark Weiss wrote: >Hey, I know Tolkien as a medievalist--never read the fictions. But "Golem?" >Covetous? Needs to be saved so earth can be redeemed? Are you kidding? Why >didn't he just call the character "kike?" > >Mark > > >At 10:42 PM 1/6/2004 -0800, alexander saliby wrote: >>Ravi, >>You wrote:"...wasn't it the hobbits' ability to forgive Golem, a murderer >>and debased, covetous creature, his tresspasses the reason for the >>eventual redemption of Middle Earth and humanity?..." >> >>Well said, but, isn't the act of "forgiveness" of the transgressions of >>another in itself a posturing of superiority? And is not the feeling of >>superiority the essence of racism? >>Alex >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Shankar, Ravi (English) >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 11:03 AM >> Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings and racism >> >> >> Just as codicil, irrespective of Tolkien's intentions, Peter Jackson's >>rendition makes it clear that it's the "humans" versus the bestial forces >>of "evil" - the sludge-birth of the orcs is testament enough - and so >>when the final battle for Middle Earth transpires and other humans in >>Middle Eastern and African garb appear, chucking spears and spurring on >>elephants, hellbent on doing the Eye's vile will to oppose the principals >>of goodness the fellowship represents, it's redolent of some pretty overt >>racism. I think Jackson's version also betrays the moral center of >>Tolkien's tale as I remember it - wasn't it the hobbits' ability to >>forgive Golem, a murderer and debased, covetous creature, his tresspasses >>the reason for the eventual redemption of Middle Earth and humanity? Must >>have missed that in the movie. >> >> -Ravi >> >> *************** >> Ravi Shankar >> Poet-in-Residence >> Assistant Professor >> CCSU - English Dept. >> 860-832-2766 >> shankarr@ccsu.edu -- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 12:07:15 -0500 Reply-To: "shannacompton@earthlink.net" Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "shannacompton@earthlink.net" Subject: Fw: poem for james r. lowell // who died this week in cleveland, usa Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Forwarded Message----- From: Matthew Wascovich Sent: Jan 6, 2004 11:25 PM To: slowtoe public Subject: poem for james r. lowell // who died this week in cleveland, usa poem for james r. lowell // who died this week in cleveland, usa meandering & musing in lowell country
   for james r. lowell
   january 4, 2004


last summer
we passed your house
also the asphodel bookstore
four times in rural northeast ohio
like a mind fuck
looking for a tree
with a red ribbon
the sign to turn in
what strength in your structure
almost too real to believe
driving up unpaved drive
you sitting there
in a renovated garage
tess in the kitchen
and all those writers
on the shelves
moore drank beer
connecting lit junky
dots to dots
and generations
while she brought me tea
and we could have spent
20 years there
yeah with the books
but more with you
listening to your observations
the details
you talking about getting popped
by the cops in cleveland
or taylor in san francisco
or kryss who you added
3lives down the street2
in your front room
levy1s painting on the wall
as tess spoke of how sweet
a man he was
you sat there jim
we didn1t know how
much pain you were in
until tess told us
and then she says  
you live for this
and so do we
so do i
at your feet
us non-artists
i remember you wrote
3the air is full of good sound:
(not the assembling of troops)
young people
grasping at what love is left
in this fading world2
now i am here
in tremont
in cleveland
in tears
with death on mouth
and you are
somewhere
maybe nowhere
or everywhere
but heroic the same


-matthew wascovich



*a great man.  if you don't know his writing, or about his bookstore, the asphodel, search it out.  love to his wife, tess.*
_____________________________ Shanna Compton http://www.shannacompton.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 12:08:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Shankar, Ravi (English)" Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings and racism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm not saying that I agree with that representation of Gollum or that I = believe that he needs to be redeemed (I'm with you on this Maria), but = it's clear enough to me that, irrespective of the profoundly imaginative = conception of its cosmology or its apparent derivation from Nordic or = Celtic mythology, Tolkien intended for us to read TLOTRs allegorically, = as a kind of Christian passion-play. Tolkein himself has written that, = "the Lord of the Rings is a fundamentally religious and Catholic work," = and some of the parallels seem pretty evident - the carrying of the ring = as emblem of sin is an allusion to the carrying of the cross and the = fact that the climactic attempt to destroy the ring in the fires of Mt. = Doom happened on "the twenty-fifth of March" is quite deliberate, as = that is the supposed date in the Anglo-Saxon tradition of both the = Cruxifixion and the Feast of the Annunciation to celebrate the = incarnation of god as man. There's no question that all of these choices = were made consciously by Tolkien, a devout Roman Catholic, and so = perhaps any discussion of the racism inherent in TLOTR could be shunted = off for a discussion of the racism inherent in Catholicism. Regardless, = as regards Gollum, Tolkien has also written "I should say,"that within = the mode of the story [the final act] exemplifies (an aspect of) the = familiar words: 'Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive them that = trespass against us. Lead us not into temptation but deliver us from = evil.'" =0D *************** Ravi Shankar=20 Poet-in-Residence Assistant Professor CCSU - English Dept. 860-832-2766 shankarr@ccsu.edu > ---------- > From: UB Poetics discussion group on behalf of Mark Weiss > Reply To: UB Poetics discussion group > Sent: Wednesday, January 7, 2004 2:11 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings and racism >=20 > Hey, I know Tolkien as a medievalist--never read the fictions. But = "Golem?" > Covetous? Needs to be saved so earth can be redeemed? Are you kidding? = Why > didn't he just call the character "kike?" >=20 > Mark >=20 >=20 >=20 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 12:29:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nate Dorward Subject: Mac Cormack and Huisken: Jan. 18th reading Comments: To: lexiconjury@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A Sunday afternoon poetry reading presented by The Gig: Karen Mac Cormack and Jesse Huisken January 18th, 3 p.m. New Works Studio 319 Spadina Avenue, second floor In 2003 the first volume of Karen Mac Cormack's _Implexures_ was jointly published by Chax Press and West House Books--a project that works a continually unfolding transformation of the shifting materials of autobiography and family history, of prose and poetry, of letters, diaries and travel writing, of anecdote and philosophical reflection. This will be her first extensive public reading from the project in Toronto. She will be joined by Jesse Huisken, the Toronto writer and artist whose recent publications include _Increase_ and _The First Confessional Poems of the Toronto Poetry and Painting Guild_. For more information about this reading, phone Nate Dorward at 416-221-6865, or email ndorward@sprint.ca. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 09:55:31 -0800 Reply-To: kalamu@aol.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ishaq Organization: Selah7 http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html Subject: PUB: call for submissions--moondance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PUB: call for submissions--moondance =============================== MOONDANCE is actively seeking submissions for its next issue (Mar. 21). DEADLINE EXTENDED: JANUARY 15, 2004 Moondance is intended to represent the diversity and unique talents of all creative women. Submissions should reflect the interests of our international readers, who are actively seeking information that will assist in improving the quality their lives -- intellectually, emotionally, and spiritually. Moondance is designed for presenting the enjoyment of a moment of quiet reflection, a creative connection between cultures, and a meeting of mind and soul. Moondance was awarded an honorable mention in the 1999 UNESCO Web Prize Awards, Category I (Free Themes). The UNESCO Web Prize Competition is awarded in recognition of outstanding achievements by artists, designers and programmers in creating websites in the fields of competence of UNESCO. The Prize reflects the cultural and societal importance of the new information and communication technologies and their use in the promotion of the ideals of UNESCO. The UNESCO Web Prize is a sub-category of the UNESCO Prize for the Promotion of the Arts. Poetry can be any form or style. Adherence to the theme is appreciated but not necessary. Poetry can be any length. Poems under 50 lines will have a better chance of being selected. Please submit three to five poems. All poems from the same author for same edition should be contained within the body of the same email. Submissions to this section should include "Poetry" in the subject line, with at least one title of your work. Submissions for this section should be sent to poetry@moondance.org . Due to the risk of viruses, attachments will not be opened. Please visit the website for more information: www.moondance.org Bridget Kelley-Lossada Assistant Editor, Poetry http://www.moondance.org >> -- - ___ Stay Strong "Peace sells but who's buying?" Megadeth "This mathematical rhythmatical mechanism enhances my wisdom of Islam, keeps me calm from doing you harm, when I attack, it's Vietnam" --HellRazah "It's not too good to stay in a white man's country too long" Mutabartuka http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html http://awol.objector.org/artistprofiles/welfarepoets.html http://ilovepoetry.com/search.asp?keywords=braithwaite&orderBy=date http://www.dpgrecordz.com/fredwreck/ http://www.lowliferecords.co.uk/ http://loudandoffensive.com/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/THCO2 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 10:09:44 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James DenBoer Subject: Douglas Blazek Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I've just published a Bibliography of the Published Work of Douglas Blazek 1961-2001, with Glass Eye Books, Northampton. It's 200 pages of Blazek's prolific publishing life -- his own poems in books, magazines, anthologies; his magazines Ole and Open Skull, the books he edited and published with Open Skull Press, reviews, etc. I also did a short bio/introduction. You can order from me: $15.95 plus $2.00 postage, but Poetics members will get a 20% discount: so $12.75 plus $2.00 postage. I take credit cards, check, money orders, cash. Order from me: James DenBoer 1517 3rd Street Sacramento CA 95814 jamesdb@paperwrk.com Blazek was a moving force in the Mimeo Revolution, concurrent with the Beats to some extent, first in Chicago, then San Francisco, then Sacramento, involving as well D. r. Wagner, d. a. levy, that whole Cleveland gang, Bukowski for a while: Meat Poets they sometimes called themselves. . . . Poets, scholars, booksellers, libraries . . . useful to all. Thanks James DenBoer PS Blazek anecdotes welcome, or comments on his work. PAPERWORK James DenBoer 1517 3rd Street, Sacramento CA 95814 Voice: 916/492-8917 (NEW) jamesdb@paperwrk.com See my inventory at ABE http://www.abebooks.com/home/PAPERWRK/ See my inventory at Bibliodirect: http://www.bibliodirect.com/searches.php?DealerID=210 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 10:39:06 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Corbett Subject: Re: Species-ist not racist, yes? In-Reply-To: <001401c3d4e8$47127900$6400a8c0@pearl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII symbolism is like politics: even if you don't care, they'll get you. cf. Derrida, il n'y a pas dead metaphors. i do have hairy feet, am relatively short for my family, and have wavy hair ... so i always wondered if we were the offspring of hobbits and men. i also always thought that the hobbits were English villagers, probably from the north. question: if the fall of middle earth means no wizards, no elves, no dwarves, does it also mean no hobbits? rmc -- Robert Corbett, Ph.C. "Given the distance of communication, Coordinator of New Programs I hope the words aren't idling on the B40D Gerberding map of my fingertips, but igniting the Phone: (206) 616-0657 wild acres within the probabilities of Fax: (206) 685-3218 spelling" - Rosmarie Waldrop UW Box: 351237 On Wed, 7 Jan 2004, Patrick Herron wrote: > Symbolism is for the symbol-minded. > > George Carlin said that. > > I was born in the United States. Does that prove I have a racist mind? > > I was joking about the Irish interpretation of the Hobbits. My feet are > of a relatively normal size and are not particularly hairy. While I am > vertically challenged, I am well above five feet tall. > > Patrick > > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert Corbett [mailto:rcorbett@u.washington.edu] > Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 1:40 PM > To: Patrick Herron > Cc: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Species-ist not racist, yes? > > > > > Come on, Patrick, the very symbolism suggests a certain bad faith about > race. And the fact that Tolkien was born in South Africa is even more > suggestive. > > As far shifting race into "species," this is exactly how one makes the > question unnerveracking. Race, not being biological, but actually > sociological, is nervous making category because it is by definition > unstable. To make it the biological category of species then renders it > stable. To say that Tolkien wasn't messing with these ideas during the > period of the Nazis and eugenics is naive. He almost couldn't help > himself. The fact that the Hobbits may be irish doesn't exempt Tolkien > either. The concept of labor aristocrats works for race as well. And > its rather bigoted to say that because one likes one other, therefore > you like them all ... when the logic actually is in reverse. > > Where I get off the bus on this question is the fact that Tolkien works > in racialist imagery doesn't mean he shouldn't be read. Nor that there > is exactly a clear message about race, nor that it is the most > interesting aspect to the book. For me, it is the simplicity of the > struggle, it's either/or ness, as well as its implicit resort to > authoritarianism that bother. Tolkien was not a fascist, but he wasn't > a Taoist either. > > I don't have time for the books anymore. Proust, among others, calls. > But the film is a great achievement, which cannot be wished away > regardless of politics and the transgression of translation. > > Robert > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 10:50:01 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Corbett Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings and racism In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII maria, i too recall reading LOTR as being a chore. i am glad i did it, since it enabled me to have conversations with my geeky friends (since I didn't play D&D), but i remember that it took an entire summer and that i would never do it again. but i adored "The Hobbit," and Bilbo Baggins: read that at least three times, which puts it slightly below PK Dick, Ursual Le Guin and Marge Piercy in my history of repeated readings of novels. as an antidote to this LOTR, discussion, consider reading "His Dark Materials." it is a fantasy book for children and adults, as well as being knowing about the religious origins of said genre. and it has epigraphs from Ashbery and Milton. Robert -- Robert Corbett, Ph.C. "Given the distance of communication, Coordinator of New Programs I hope the words aren't idling on the B40D Gerberding map of my fingertips, but igniting the Phone: (206) 616-0657 wild acres within the probabilities of Fax: (206) 685-3218 spelling" - Rosmarie Waldrop UW Box: 351237 On Wed, 7 Jan 2004, Maria Damon wrote: > actually, when i read 2.5 of those weighty tomes in my childhood, the > only character i could relate to was gollum, or whatever his name is. > now i know why. > > At 11:11 PM -0800 1/6/04, Mark Weiss wrote: > >Hey, I know Tolkien as a medievalist--never read the fictions. But "Golem?" > >Covetous? Needs to be saved so earth can be redeemed? Are you kidding? Why > >didn't he just call the character "kike?" > > > >Mark > > > > > >At 10:42 PM 1/6/2004 -0800, alexander saliby wrote: > >>Ravi, > >>You wrote:"...wasn't it the hobbits' ability to forgive Golem, a murderer > >>and debased, covetous creature, his tresspasses the reason for the > >>eventual redemption of Middle Earth and humanity?..." > >> > >>Well said, but, isn't the act of "forgiveness" of the transgressions of > >>another in itself a posturing of superiority? And is not the feeling of > >>superiority the essence of racism? > >>Alex > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: Shankar, Ravi (English) > >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >> Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 11:03 AM > >> Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings and racism > >> > >> > >> Just as codicil, irrespective of Tolkien's intentions, Peter Jackson's > >>rendition makes it clear that it's the "humans" versus the bestial forces > >>of "evil" - the sludge-birth of the orcs is testament enough - and so > >>when the final battle for Middle Earth transpires and other humans in > >>Middle Eastern and African garb appear, chucking spears and spurring on > >>elephants, hellbent on doing the Eye's vile will to oppose the principals > >>of goodness the fellowship represents, it's redolent of some pretty overt > >>racism. I think Jackson's version also betrays the moral center of > >>Tolkien's tale as I remember it - wasn't it the hobbits' ability to > >>forgive Golem, a murderer and debased, covetous creature, his tresspasses > >>the reason for the eventual redemption of Middle Earth and humanity? Must > >>have missed that in the movie. > >> > >> -Ravi > >> > >> *************** > >> Ravi Shankar > >> Poet-in-Residence > >> Assistant Professor > >> CCSU - English Dept. > >> 860-832-2766 > >> shankarr@ccsu.edu > > > -- > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 14:09:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ian VanHeusen Subject: Wilhelm Reich Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I am going to play naive young poet for a moment & ask a series of questions regarding Reich. 1) Would Reich not count as a political prisoner, and thus be of the stature of people such Emma Goldman, Sacco & Vanzetti, etc.? 2) Has anyone EVER made an attempt to refute the research of Wilhem Reich? Starting with sex-economy moving into Orgone Biophysics? 3) If Wilhem Reich's research is valid, then why is it generally ignored that a theory and treatment of cancer, which Reich described as Biopathical, had been developed as early as the 1930's? That question was misleading. His research was not ignored, the United States Government decided that it should be stopped, and that his research should be burned. I am not going to even bother asking why. 4) Has the government been successfull in eliminating Reich from the general intellectuall life? This last question is of particular importance because a relatively ignored discourse has developed along side Reich, and that is the discourse of what some call "Democratic Education." For example, I believe the founder of Summerhill was a friend of Reich's and the founder of the Albany Free School, Mary Leau, developed Reichian techniques for working with traumatized children. ________________________________________________ Policies dangerously increase. _________________________________________________________________ Have fun customizing MSN Messenger — learn how here! http://www.msnmessenger-download.com/tracking/reach_customize ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 14:30:42 -0500 Reply-To: mbroder@nyc.rr.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Broder Organization: Michael Broder Subject: Re: civil unions YES, gay marriage NO, and my argument WHY In-Reply-To: <162.2a40d03f.2d2b319d@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, generally speaking, civil union is a status that has specified privileges associated with it, is available only to residents of a given state, and is enforceable only within that state. And of course, only Vermont has civil union at this time. Marriage per se is a status conferred by the state in which the marriage takes place but recognized by all US states and by other countries with whom the US has appropriate treaties. The entire body of matrimonial law--for better and worse--applies to married couples. Civil unions are not necessarily covered by that extensive body of law. As I wrote in a recent letter to the New York Times, civil marriage for same-sex couples is not a moral issue or a religious issue; it is an issue of equal protection under the Constitution of the United States. It does not require anyone to believe anything. It only requires same-sex couples to be accorded the same rights (and responsibilities) as other married couples in the United States. Michael -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Craig Allen Conrad Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 4:31 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: civil unions YES, gay marriage NO, and my argument WHY (i've been away with no internet access since my original post) if i'm wrong, then please educate me, but from what i've read, civil unions would allow the same legal, binding rights to couples as would marriage. am i wrong about this? if i am, let me know, i'll then think further on the issue. i understand that plenty of couples (straight) get "married" at city hall (for instance) which of course has nothing to do with BEING in a church. on the other hand it is clear that "marriage" is very much affirmed by the church body as an institution which upholds standards and beliefs put forth by scripture. this is why i prefer civil unions. i also hear what kari is saying, and i agree with the framework of the idea that it's good to oppose the Right, especially when it's dealing with very basic human needs like protection, insurance, taxes, adoption, i understand all this. but to me it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth because of the fact that the church is very much involved in the idea of what marriage is. to me it's like asking a Jew to read Mein Kampf and LIKE IT! of course i don't know what many other religions have to say about same- sex unions. but in America, it's pretty clear that the ruling tongue speaks of Christ, the God on our money is NOT meaning Shiva or Shango. yes, i see the idea of opposition by making them give us marriage licenses. but in the end, this form of assimilation is horrific --to me-- because it asserts that their ideas of "abomination" must also be swallowed. but maybe it's just me who thinks this. call me crazy, i'm used to it already. thanks for sharing your many thoughts (and that RK interview), CAConrad ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 15:19:42 -0500 Reply-To: olsonjk@delhi.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kirby Olson Organization: SUNY Delhi Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings and racism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I'm reminded by this conversation of what the Marxist critic Leslie Fiedler said in an interview when already quite old (he may have been seventy or even eighty). In the thirties when he was backing writers like Dos Passos and many others whose names have been lost, he hated Gone with the Wind because of its implicit support for a racist regime. Some fifty years later, however, he said -- the aesthetic wonders of Gone with the Wind made it such that it continued to haunt him, while he never thought again about Dos Passos or the pc junk that he had so violently supported. Whatever else you can say about Lord of the Rings it has haunted the imaginations of millions. And so, on an aesthetic basis, it towers above everybody's work on this entire list. Compared to it and the immense lifespan it has had and will continue to have, this entire list is just a blip. What is the source of its powerful appeal? I read it myself when I was fifteen and don't think I'll ever forget it, though I really don't want to read it again. I don't think I need to: it's still there. -- Kirby Olson ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 15:23:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings and racism In-Reply-To: <3FFC69DE.B4B2401@delhi.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Aesthetic appeal isn't necessarily a sign of depth, only of popularity. I also like LOTR, but I like my own aesthetics better, and my own aesthetics have more relevance today than LOTR. By 'relevance' I'm referencing engagement with critical issues of contemporary society, technology, phenomenology, politics. The blip doesn't matter. Lautreamont was a blip. So was Solomon. Alan http://www.asondheim.org/ http://www.asondheim.org/portal/.nikuko http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt Trace projects http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm finger sondheim@panix.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 12:38:49 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Wilhelm Reich In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The argument has been made, with some justification, that Reich's=20 imprisonment had a lot to do with his radical politics. On the other hand,= =20 he did claim to be able to cure cancer by means of an undetectable form of= =20 energy, and it's no defense in such cases to say "well, you haven't=20 disproved it." The burden is on the researcher--if penicilin's antibiotic=20 properties couldn't be demonstrated it would be illegal to market it as an= =20 antibiotic. And that's what he was jailed for. Anyone with sufficient steel wool and leather can test the curative virtues= =20 of orgone. All you have to do is find a group of cancer patients willing to= =20 forego all other treatment and compare the mortality rate with those=20 treated more conventionally. There's probably a third world country where=20 you could get away with this. It might also help to have some pills to help= =20 you sleep, unless you like blood on your hands. Reich's son has written a memoir--sorry, beyond that it's lost in=20 memory-haze. He recounts the two of them passing many happy evenings=20 shooting down flying saucers with orgone cannons, which seem to have been=20 nothing more than pvc pipes. It's possible, like Reich, to come up with=20 serious and important ideas and still lose it. Reich continues to be part of "general intellectual life," but not because= =20 of his orgone theory. Mark At 02:09 PM 1/7/2004 -0500, Ian VanHeusen wrote: >I am going to play naive young poet for a moment & ask a series of= questions >regarding Reich. > >1) Would Reich not count as a political prisoner, and thus be of the= stature >of people such Emma Goldman, Sacco & Vanzetti, etc.? > >2) Has anyone EVER made an attempt to refute the research of Wilhem Reich? >Starting with sex-economy moving into Orgone Biophysics? > >3) If Wilhem Reich's research is valid, then why is it generally ignored >that a theory and treatment of cancer, which Reich described as= Biopathical, >had been developed as early as the 1930's? > >That question was misleading. His research was not ignored, the United >States Government decided that it should be stopped, and that his research >should be burned. I am not going to even bother asking why. > >4) Has the government been successfull in eliminating Reich from the= general >intellectuall life? > >This last question is of particular importance because a relatively ignored >discourse has developed along side Reich, and that is the discourse of what >some call "Democratic Education." For example, I believe the founder of >Summerhill was a friend of Reich's and the founder of the Albany Free >School, Mary Leau, developed Reichian techniques for working with >traumatized children. > > > > > >________________________________________________ > Policies dangerously increase. > >_________________________________________________________________ >Have fun customizing MSN Messenger =97 learn how here! >http://www.msnmessenger-download.com/tracking/reach_customize ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 15:55:45 -0500 Reply-To: olsonjk@delhi.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kirby Olson Organization: SUNY Delhi Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings and racism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > By 'relevance' I'm referencing engagement with critical issues of > contemporary society, technology, phenomenology, politics. Alan, the above are irrelevant in terms of aesthetics. -- Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 13:52:03 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Max Winter Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings and racism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii At the risk of being severely misconstrued, and also at the risk of making an easy response, I feel it's necessary to ask what the meaning or purpose of a discussion of the racist implications of Tolkien's book might be. Is the purpose to diminish the book's sizable reputation among, and value to, "intellectuals" and "non-intellectuals" alike? Is the purpose to expose Tolkien as himself a racist, sneaking insidious messages into a story packed with unpronounceable names and mythological allusions? Suppose that, by exposing what it is about the book that might, should we place the racism-exposure transparency over these volumes and turn on the overhead projector of High Culture, match the accepted guidelines for racism in literary works, we do make a proof of some sort that is essentially irrefutable. What then? There's a line in Mamet that goes something like: There are some numbers so huge, so inconceivably huge, that division by two makes absolutely no difference. I'm probably omitting an expletive there, but you get the idea. Max Winter __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 17:04:55 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings and racism Comments: To: olsonjk@delhi.edu In-Reply-To: <3FFC69DE.B4B2401@delhi.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" leslie fiedler was a marxist? i thought he was a homosocialist! but i've only read love and death in the american novel and that at age 17, so i might have missed a lot. At 3:19 PM -0500 1/7/04, Kirby Olson wrote: >I'm reminded by this conversation of what the Marxist critic Leslie >Fiedler said in an interview when already quite old (he may have >been seventy or even eighty). In the thirties when he was backing >writers like Dos Passos and many others whose names have been lost, >he hated Gone with the Wind because of its implicit support for a >racist regime. Some fifty years later, however, he said -- the >aesthetic wonders of Gone with the Wind made it such that it >continued to haunt him, while he never thought again about Dos >Passos or the pc junk that he had so violently supported. > >Whatever else you can say about Lord of the Rings it has haunted the >imaginations of millions. And so, on an aesthetic basis, it towers >above everybody's work on this entire list. Compared to it and the >immense lifespan it has had and will continue to have, this entire >list is just a blip. What is the source of its powerful appeal? I >read it myself when I was fifteen and don't think I'll ever forget >it, though I really don't want to read it again. I don't think I >need to: it's still there. > >-- Kirby Olson -- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 16:20:49 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brent Bechtel Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings and racism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A search for "Leslie Feidler" + Marxist on google turns up 279 results. A search for "Kirby Olson" + Marxist on google turns up 19 results. A search for "Maria Damon" + Marxist on google turns up 22 results. :: Assuming Leslie Feidler is indeed a Marxist, we can calculate: Kirby Olson is 7% Marxist, whereas Maria Damon is 9% Marxist. A difference of two (per)cent. My two cents. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maria Damon" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 5:04 PM Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings and racism > leslie fiedler was a marxist? i thought he was a homosocialist! but > i've only read love and death in the american novel and that at age > 17, so i might have missed a lot. > > At 3:19 PM -0500 1/7/04, Kirby Olson wrote: > >I'm reminded by this conversation of what the Marxist critic Leslie > >Fiedler said in an interview when already quite old (he may have > >been seventy or even eighty). In the thirties when he was backing > >writers like Dos Passos and many others whose names have been lost, > >he hated Gone with the Wind because of its implicit support for a > >racist regime. Some fifty years later, however, he said -- the > >aesthetic wonders of Gone with the Wind made it such that it > >continued to haunt him, while he never thought again about Dos > >Passos or the pc junk that he had so violently supported. > > > >Whatever else you can say about Lord of the Rings it has haunted the > >imaginations of millions. And so, on an aesthetic basis, it towers > >above everybody's work on this entire list. Compared to it and the > >immense lifespan it has had and will continue to have, this entire > >list is just a blip. What is the source of its powerful appeal? I > >read it myself when I was fifteen and don't think I'll ever forget > >it, though I really don't want to read it again. I don't think I > >need to: it's still there. > > > >-- Kirby Olson > > > -- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 17:21:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: Jess Obit in SF Chronicle Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit from today's paper: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/01/07 /BAGIC44V2V1.DTL or search for jess collins -- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://boogcity.blog-city.com/ T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 17:40:34 -0500 Reply-To: mbroder@nyc.rr.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Broder Organization: Michael Broder Subject: Afghan poetry and constitution MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Jan 5, the New York Times reported on the approval of a new constitution for Afghanistan, saying that the chairman of the grand council, Sebaghatullah Mojadeddi, recited a poem that included the line, "There is rain coming and flowers are growing from my body." It's great that there are national leaders in the world who recite poetry at important occasions of state. I wish the Times had indicated the poet and poem from which the line is quoted. Does anybody know? Michael ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 17:40:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ANDREWS@FORDHAM.EDU Subject: Looking for Bruce Campbell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: base64 DQoNCg0KDQpJZiBhbnlvbmUgaGFzIGluZm8gb24gdGhlIHdoZXJlYWJvdXRzIG9mDQpCcnVjZSBD YW1wYmVsbCAod2hvIHdhcyBsYXN0IEkga25vdyBvdXQNCmluIFJpdmVyc2lkZSBDYWxpZm9ybmlh LCB0ZWFjaGluZywgd3JpdGluZw0KcG9ldHJ5IGNyaXRpY2lzbSwgc29tZSBwdWJsaXNoZWQgaW4g dGhlDQo4MHMgaW4gVGVtYmxvciwgZXRjLikuLi4NCkknZCBhcHByZWNpYXRlIGdldHRpbmcgaXQg 4oCUDQplbWFpbCBhZGRyZXNzLCBzdHJlZXQgYWRkcmVzcywgcGhvbmUsDQpzbW9rZSBzaWduYWws IG90aGVyIOKAlA0KDQoNCmJhY2tjaGFubmVsDQp0aGFua3MNCkJydWNlIEFuZHJld3MNCjxhbmRy ZXdzQGZvcmRoYW0uZWR1Pg== ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 22:43:15 -0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robin Hamilton Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings and racism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > At the risk of being severely misconstrued, and also at the risk of making an easy > response, I feel it's necessary to ask what the meaning or purpose of a discussion > of the racist implications of Tolkien's book might be. This is becoming severely tedious (leave aside the times when some of the participants to this thread don't seem to be able to distinguish between LOTR The Book and LOTR The Film). Whatever racism (or not) exists in Tolkien, it's a ghost -- it's difficult to imagine JRRT as a *conscious* racist. It wasn't, for better or worse, in his orbit as an Oxbridge academic at the time. He simply didn't *encounter* Others. {Might have been better if it +were+ a factor.} Certainly, admittedly (and leaving aside the utter red herring of the South African Connection) Tolkien was presumably as much or as little racist as anyone of his class and background in England at the time. What (as David Bircumshaw has pointed out) LOTR {the book} (allegorically) deals with is a stunning set of *class* cliches. (I'm not sure if dave would use the term "class cliche", but I would.) And as Mark Weiss will no doubt be happy to explain, Tolkien managed to get whipsawed not just over the academic/fiction divide (the story of sketching the beginnings of The Hobbit on the borders of a student's exam paper) but the fact that as a medievalist, he was marginal, and managed to gain the equivalent of pop-academic status boxing outside his weight with "Beowulf: The Monster and the Critics". (A brilliant article, way before its time, but Tolkien wasn't centrally an Anglo-Saxon scholar.) Nobody (not even Mark) has yet mentioned that he *translated* (brilliantly -- or is it that there simply isn't much competition?) GGK, as well as writing the glosses to the (Tolkien and) Gordon edition (his sole published claim-to-fame as a medievalist). ... and howabout how no one yet has mentioned Tolkien's link to The Inklings? -- C.S.Lewis, Charles Williams, who the hell was the fourth? This is beyond angels weep territory with (from my perspective) nobody other than Mark (on Tolkien's medieval background) or David (on the Birmingham connection) contributing anything other than hot air and blah. And no, this *isn't* simply a digression from the "central" topic of , it matters. JRRT was a complex figure in all kinds of ways, and to snip-out and judge him on the DVD of The Two Towers is simply ... peurile. Robin Hamilton (Sorry -- late night disenchanted Howl.) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 15:46:54 -0700 Reply-To: Laura.Wright@colorado.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Laura Wright Organization: University of Colorado Subject: Friedman, Owen reading Jan. 23 Comments: cc: "LITCAL (LITCAL)" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Left Hand Reading Series proudly presents: MICHAEL FRIEDMAN & MAUREEN OWEN 8:00 PM JANUARY 23 at the Left Hand Bookstore (1200 Pearl St. #10) in Boulder. Free and open to the public. Michael Friedman's latest book of poetry is Species (The Figures, 2000). His work recently appeared in the anthology Great American Prose Poems: From Poe to the Present (Scribner, 2003). Other books of poetry include Arts & Letters (with drawings by Duncan Hannah, The Figures, 1996) and Cameo (The Figures, 1994). Since 1986 he has edited the influential poetry journal Shiny. A new book of poetry, Celluloid City (with drawings by Jim Ringley), is forthcoming in January '04 from Potato Clock Editions in Boulder. In 2000 Friedman was an adjunct member of the faculty of the MFA writing program at Naropa University. Maureen Owen is the author of nine books of poetry and editor of Telephone Books Press. Her recent title American Rush: Selected Poems was a finalist for the L.A. Times Book Prize. Her work AE (Amelia Earhart) was a recipient of the prestigious Before Columbus American Book Award. Other books include Imaginary Income, Zombie Notes, and Untapped Maps. A special selection of poems from her forthcoming title, Erosion's Pull, in collaboration with the stunning art of Yvonne Jacquette, is being published by Granary Books, New York City. She has taught numerous workshops in poetry and book production and has been awarded a grant from the Foundation for Contemporary Performance Arts, Inc. and a Poetry Fellowship from the NEA. She most recently joined the adjunct faculty at Naropa University. Paul Hoover has said of her work, "Astonishing things quietly occur" and Andrei Codrescu notes, "Her exuberant style and tremendous energy shine in her strongly feminist works. . . " For more information call: (303) 443-3685 The Left Hand Reading Series is an independent series presenting readings of original literary works by emerging and established writers. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Laura E. Wright Serials Cataloging Dept., Norlin Library (303) 735-3111 "The trouble with your poetry, Frost, is that it has subjects." --Wallace Stevens ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 19:01:47 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Craig Allen Conrad Subject: e: civil unions YES, gay marriage NO (maybe) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Michael Broder, thanks for your post responding to my questions. i've focused on comparing rights without looking at the wider implications of the civil union outside Vermont and how much it doesn't mean outside Vermont. it's funny how, of all the conversations i've had about this subject (including conversations with a lesbian lawyer i met at a party) that it has never been explained the way you put it. thanks again. i'm going to read further into it, CAConrad ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 19:46:54 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Craig Allen Conrad Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings and racism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit before Christmas i ran into an old boyfriend who is a Tolkien fanatic, and i told him about this conversation. he says that the same conversation has been going on in the SciFi community ever since the first of the three films came out. anyway, he claims --as do his nerdy friends-- that Tolkien based much of his understanding of ceremonial magic, etc., on Druidic culture and magic. and if that's the case, the questions should stick with the films and not the books, as others have already said in this thread. the Druids are not likely to have encountered people of color from the southern hemispheres. but furthermore, if this is the case, that we're talking about Druidic culture and belief, then sexism is what we could be focusing on. sexism has always tended to back a back seat. but in the case of the Druids, it was their priests who removed women from their seats of power as spiritual leaders and healers in the Celtic regions (especially England) long before any Christian stepped foot in the territory to begin their own form of sexism. of course the Christians became murderers of women of power, while the Druids were more interested in removal of women and of reconsecrating wells, etc. the Romans also did this, for instance taking the wells of Brid (or Brigid), and renaming them for Diana. the Green Man myths were originally destroyed by the Druids, and if it's true that Tolkien was focused on the Druids, then it's sexism, not racism to focus on. but i don't know for sure what his focus was. i admit i haven't read the books. and it's fiction anyway, not myth or any kind of oral history, so even if he did use Druidic tools, maybe it's irrelevant. just wanted to add that i disagree with those who have said that this thread is tedious, or becoming so. it's important to discuss these things. CAConrad ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 17:02:32 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings and racism Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit maria--- are there two leslie fielder's? if i remember correctly from my grad school daze ---------- >From: Maria Damon >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings and racism >Date: Wed, Jan 7, 2004, 3:04 PM > > leslie fiedler was a marxist? i thought he was a homosocialist! but > i've only read love and death in the american novel and that at age > 17, so i might have missed a lot. > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 01:18:30 -0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robin Hamilton Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings and racism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Craig Allen Conrad" > before Christmas i ran into an old boyfriend who is a Tolkien > fanatic, and i told him about this conversation. he says that > the same conversation has been going on in the SciFi community > ever since the first of the three films came out. I hate to say this, it being ever so long since I was really deep in the Ghetto, but anyone who uses the term SciFi ain't one of them fen. It's SF. This is a *deeply* stopped-at-the-border usage. Unless your friend hits on this via SF&F? Hey, I'm broadminded -- just like to know where everyone is at, but. R. (Solid-fuel, and ashamed of it.) {Just juking. R2.} ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 17:55:41 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings and racism/ re Fiedler In-Reply-To: <200401080047.i080lXJx203450@pimout3-ext.prodigy.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I remember when Leslie Fiedler gave a lecture at San Francisco State in 1964. Both the campus and the City were shaking from demonstrations - primarily led by CORE - against the Hotels, Supermarkets and Car Dealerships that refused to hire African-Americans. Campus Demonstrations were frequently in support of SNCC & CORE actions in Georgia, Alabama and Mississippi. It was also the time of the emergence of the Black Student Union, the intellectual leadership of which was not persuaded by the instant "Black & White Together" impetus of Dr. Martin Luther King & Core & James Baldwin (particularly represented in the great essay, The Fire Next Time) but there was a turning inward to define and declare was unique, worthy and powerful about being Black (aesthetically, spiritually, politically, etc.) It was the seeds of what would be eventually emulated by inward looking feminists, gay, Latino, and Asian groups. In any case, into this mix steps Leslie Fiedler with his noontime lecture on what he saw as the homoerotic character of the relationship between Huck and N Jim. It was very well received by black students, a number of whom took up speaking with Fiedler when the lecture broke up. The gist of the interest was trying to interpret - and perhaps fend off - the involvement of many white men in what was perceived as a Black struggle for not only Civil Rights, but a post Ghetto or post-Colonial cultural and political identity. Fiedler's lecture, if I am interpreting my memory correctly, enabled a view of white men, many young, as having a commitment to the struggle of Black liberation to be seen as interfused with homoerotic desires for black men. In fact, homoerotic or not, relations with black men as friends was the "safer" relationship for white men; dating Black women, at that time, was, with few exceptions, still very much perceived as a dangerous, more risk filled public act - from both sides of racial coin - no matter the compatibility of individual partners. So there Fiedler was, throwing a very hot potato in the air, enabling, as it were, a literary device, built - it now seems - on homophobia that could further enable Black Power advocates to separate from white, perhaps compromising entanglements - at least ones that made it hard to further explore and create a powerful and new identity. Without knowing anything of Fiedler's personal history, who knows, he might have been dealing with his own, let alone collective, 'white' attraction to and phobia for black men, and thereby enabling a way of distancing himself from what SNCC and CORE initially definitely saw as a collaborative project. Indeed there may be or were two Leslie Fiedlers. Stephen Vincent on 1/7/04 5:02 PM, Chris Stroffolino at cstroffo@EARTHLINK.NET wrote: > maria--- > > are there two leslie fielder's? > if i remember correctly from my grad school daze > > ---------- >> From: Maria Damon >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings and racism >> Date: Wed, Jan 7, 2004, 3:04 PM >> > >> leslie fiedler was a marxist? i thought he was a homosocialist! but >> i've only read love and death in the american novel and that at age >> 17, so i might have missed a lot. >> ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 23:27:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: Boog Blog is back Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit http://boogcity.blogspot.com/ thank you for visiting. as ever, david -- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://boogcity.blog-city.com/ T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 23:59:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: leaving MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII leaving http://www.asondheim.org/brook.jpg http://www.asondheim.org/oilrig.jpg signifiers leak; And working on some small new images on the Zaurus dealing with the 'leaking' of inscription, a byproduct of the sketch program I'm using. Between Adaptation and Woody Allen's Anything Else, I locate myself as a writer. Or between Celan and Jabes. These fields are related. fluid mechanics < > fluids oil suns leak brooks leak paths leak What Heaven has conferred is called the Nature. An accordance with this nature is called the Path of Duty; the regulation of this path is called the System of Instruction. The path should not be left for an instant; if it could be left, it would not be the path. (Li Chi, trans. Legge.) or http://www.asondheim.org/portal/.nikuko/snapshot16.png http://www.asondheim.org/portal/.nikuko/snapshot17.png _ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 00:24:41 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lewis LaCook Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings and racism Comments: To: olsonjk@DELHI.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I'm reminded by this conversation of what the Marxist critic Leslie Fiedler said in an interview when already quite old (he may have been seventy or even eighty). In the thirties when he was backing writers like Dos Passos and many others whose names have been lost, he hated Gone with the Wind because of its implicit support for a racist regime. Some fifty years later, however, he said -- the aesthetic wonders of Gone with the Wind made it such that it continued to haunt him, while he never thought again about Dos Passos or the pc junk that he had so violently supported. Whatever else you can say about Lord of the Rings it has haunted the imaginations of millions. And so, on an aesthetic basis, it towers above everybody's work on this entire list. Compared to it and the immense lifespan it has had and will continue to have, this entire list is just a blip. What is the source of its powerful appeal? I read it myself when I was fifteen and don't think I'll ever forget it, though I really don't want to read it again. I don't think I need to: it's still there. -- Kirby Olson Yeah, sure, Kirby, but what about the mechanism by which this appeal has happened? pop culture's great, and i'm not so high-brow as to not grant it its due, but would LOTR have survived had it NOT been written in the style of a linear nineteenth century novel? what is the source of its appeal--?--read joe campbell---same thing that makes harry potter so appealing---they're not horribly complex works (LOTR, by the way, has less of the Middle Earth cosmology than, say, The Silmarillion----has anyone in this exhaustive discussion even brought up that book?), and in their simplicity they leave lots and lots of ideas unexamined--- ?> ye olde hero mythe: little fellow saves the world....you're bound to win if you start with someone who seems small and soft and make he or she your hero/ine...because in the end we all feel weak and soft and small...it's universal___as someone once said of smashing pumpkins (a band i happen to like, actually): yeah, selling songs about depression to teen-agers...like shooting fish in a barrell____ (and this leaves untouched the "mechanism" of canonization, which any good marxist would bring into question_____why do high school kids have to read robert frost as opposed to stein? Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: lotr n racism Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" the issue isn't whether or not JRRT is a "conscious racist" or not. This is the author fallacy rearing its defensive head. People react to the word "racist" as if it's this exotic, unspeakable evil, not to be brought up in polite society, and certainly not something complex, multiform and mutable. But it is. It's a systemic, ubiquitous condition of society that changes all the time. It would be hard *not* to be racist if one is a member of a racist society. i think the issue is that both book(s) and film appear to underwrite the great myths of western, and particularly northern/european, civilization, especially the myth of white supremacy. But "racism" doesn't just mean "anti-people of color" --it can also mean anti-Semitism, Orientalism, xenophobia tout court. This should not be surprising, and it certainly shouldn't make folks so defensive as to forestall critical discussion of the cultural artifacts. as for the question of why we like to discuss such things, or what value the discussion has, it's an intellectual pleasure and an ethical imperative to analyze cultural artifacts according to these analytic paradigms. like, why discuss anything? cuz we feel like it. -- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 10:03:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nick Piombino Subject: Nick Piombino's ::fait accompli:: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Now on ::fait accompli:: *notebook 4/29/84 *"The Secret Life of Walter Mitty" parts 1 and 2 *notebook c 1986 *New Zinc Bar Talk Series Listings *Who gets ::fait accompli:: *vote for the poet most likely to ignite a new poetry movement **** 65,000 hits since 5/24/03 http://nickpiombino.blogspot.com/ **** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 10:04:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Re: lotr n racism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I would second all that Maria has to say below, with one reservation. I don't think it's hard "not to be a racist if one is a member of a racist society," though it certainly is a struggle once you begin to act upon your anti-racism -- I've always been a bit suspicious of the argument (and I hasten to add that Maria is not making this argument) that everybody is racist, as it sucks the specificity and gravity right out of discussions of what remains America's central problem -- I don't know enough about Tolkien or the movie to pronounce -- but I do know that the Bush family has a long history of opposing any and all civil rights legislation -- On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 08:17:02, Maria Damon wrote: > the issue isn't whether or not JRRT is a "conscious racist" or not. > This is the author fallacy rearing its defensive head. People react > to the word "racist" as if it's this exotic, unspeakable evil, not to > be brought up in polite society, and certainly not something complex, > multiform and mutable. But it is. It's a systemic, ubiquitous > condition of society that changes all the time. It would be hard > *not* to be racist if one is a member of a racist society. i think > the issue is that both book(s) and film appear to underwrite the > great myths of western, and particularly northern/european, > civilization, especially the myth of white supremacy. But "racism" > doesn't just mean "anti-people of color" --it can also mean > anti-Semitism, Orientalism, xenophobia tout court. This should not > be surprising, and it certainly shouldn't make folks so defensive as > to forestall critical discussion of the cultural artifacts. as for > the question of why we like to discuss such things, or what value the > discussion has, it's an intellectual pleasure and an ethical > imperative to analyze cultural artifacts according to these analytic > paradigms. like, why discuss anything? cuz we feel like it. > -- > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Breaking in bright Orthography . . ." --Emily Dickinson Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 10:06:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Fwd: PUB: call for papers--afro-geeks: from techphobia to technophilia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-Or4WeKJ8Xgkh40JVM0l4" --=-Or4WeKJ8Xgkh40JVM0l4 Content-Type: text/plain ==================================================== CALL FOR PAPERS Conference: AFRO-GEEKS: FROM TECHPHOBIA TO TECHNOPHILIA MAY 7-8, 2004 • UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA, SANTA BARBARA Proposal DEADLINE: MARCH 1, 2004 The Center for Black Studies at the University of California, Santa Barbara, invites submissions of papers for an upcoming conference, AfroGEEKS, that examines the rapidly-shifting relationship between issues of Blackness and technology. In recent years, African Americans, especially, have been portrayed as poster children for the digital divide discourse. Though rarely represented as full participants in the information technology revolution, Black people are among the earliest adopters and comprise some of the most ardent and innovative users of IT (information technology). African diasporic people's many successes within new media and information technologies are too often overshadowed by the significant inequalities in technology access, which ultimately produces the racial digital divide. But there is more to this important and timely topic. We are interested in proposals that consider the following topics: · Structural barriers to IT access that specifically impact Black communities · Effective models of innovative IT use and adoption in Black communities · The influence of traditional science education on Black youths · Technophobes and Luddites in the Black community · Computer gaming in the Black community · Black popular music culture, such as sampling and turntablism, within the IT economy · The place of Blacks in the IT industry · How categories of hi-tech and low-tech mastery get determined and circulated · Black IT leaders · Recent legislation regarding the telecommunications industry and universal access to IT · The responsibility of the government and IT businesses to minority communities · IT issues on the African continent and for African diasporas outside of the U.S. · Events of September 11 relative to Blacks' position in the IT economy · The Geek identity problematic · From IT Consumers to IT Producers · Black virtual communities · Black blogs · Blacks and military-based IT training · Becoming AfroGeeks · Proposals addressing related topics welcome The conference will be held May 7-8, 2004, at the University of California, Santa Barbara. Proposals should be limited to two pages and should include an abstract of not more than 350 words, and audio/visual needs specified. Proposals should be submitted to: Dr. Anna Everett Center for Black Studies 4603 South Hall University of California Santa Barbara, CA 93106-3150 For more information, e-mail ctr4blst@omni.ucsb.edu >> =========================================================== Commemorate your past, present and future with the gift of Jewelry. Jewelry.com: The best jewelry, the best prices, the best stores, one easy place. http://click.topica.com/caabOpjbUrD3obVUh9Bf/ Jewelry.com =========================================================== ############################################# this is e-drum, a listserv providing information of interests to black writers and diverse supporters worldwide. e-drum is moderated by kalamu ya salaam (kalamu@aol.com). ---------------------------------- to subscribe to e-drum send a blank email to: e-drum-subscribe@topica.com --------------------------------------------- to get off the e-drum listserv send a blank email to: e-drum-unsubscribe@topica.com ---------------------------------------------- to read past messages or search the archives, go to: http://www.topica.com/lists/e-drum --^---------------------------------------------------------------- This email was sent to: aln10@psu.edu EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?bUrD3o.bVUh9B.YWxuMTBA Or send an email to: e-drum-unsubscribe@topica.com TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^---------------------------------------------------------------- --=-Or4WeKJ8Xgkh40JVM0l4-- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Breaking in bright Orthography . . ." --Emily Dickinson Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 08:01:51 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: Dodie Bellamy, Eleni Stecopoulos & zakary szymanski In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1255; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please forward !!!! Announcing: a wonderful reading not to be missed... an evening with: Dodie Bellamy Eleni Stecopoulos & zakary szymanski Sunday, Jan. 24 7:00 p.m. 3435 Cesar Chavez #327 San Francisco, CA Dodie Bellamy's latest book Cunt-Ups (Tender Buttons) won the 2002=20 Firecracker Alternative Book Award for poetry. Her infamous epistolary=20= vampire novel, The Letters of Mina Harker, will be reprinted in 2004 by=20= the University of Wisconsin Press. Also in 2004 San Francisco's=20 Suspect Thoughts will publish Pink Steam, a collection of stories,=20 memoirs and memoiresque essays. She is currently working on The Fourth=20= Form, a multi-dimensional sex novel. This semester she is, insanely,=20 teaching fiction writing at San Francisco State, Antioch Los Angeles,=20 and CalArts. Eleni Stecopoulos's poetry and poetics have appeared in the New York=20 Times, Harvard Review, Open Letter, Zazil, Chain, Rust Talks, and=20 elsewhere. Her essay =93Geopathy=94 is forthcoming in Ecopoetics. She is=20= finishing a dissertation out of Buffalo on Artaud, Paul Metcalf,=20 autoethnography, alphabetic terror, Chinese medicine, time and the=20 American frontier, etc. ************************************************************************ DIRECTIONS: to 3435 Cesar Chavez #327 between Valencia and Mission, on the South side of Cesar Chavez is a parking lot entrance; which when you first enter from Cesar Chavez will be (some) guest parking. Parking in the area (on the street) is not to bad. Once you have entered the parking lot go to your left past a small printing company and directly behind that (to the west) will be double glass doors. @ left of the Doors is a =93buzzer system=94 press = the number 043. someone will pick up the phone and buzz you in. Mass transit. Bart - get off at 24th go south on Mission, (the numbers will get higher) walk 3 blocks, cross Cesar Chavez (there will be a stop light) go right 3/4 of a block, turn left in to parking lot. MUNI- get off @ 27th walk north (the opposite direction the muni would be going from down town) walk one block turn right on Cesar chavez, Cross Delores, Guerrero and then cross valencia, turn right into first parking lot. Buses- on Mission take (going southish)- 14. 14L, 49 (get off at 26th - 1/2 block from cesar chavez - walk south - cross Cesar Chavez turn right; Valencia - 26 get off just past Cesar Chavez , cross Valencia on Cesar Chavez, turn right into parking lot.. ________________________________________________________________ any questions contact: kari edwards terra1@sonic.net= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 08:11:06 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Max Winter Subject: Re: lotr n racism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Oh, I don't know about the term "ethical imperative." I'm not even sure you could say it was an intellectual imperative. (We're talking about elves, dwarves, and hobbits, here.) But the discussion as constructed seems too narrow. Why not think of the book in terms of historical positioning? with respect to changes taking place in poetry around that time, give or take a few years? in film? even in popular music? in visual art? Even as T. published a book that encapsulated so many "paradigms" of legend/myth/folklore, a work almost designed to spawn imitators by virtue of the fact that comparison would be so difficult for its successors to avoid, artists in virtually every other medium were beginning to reject everything that had come before, or at least to use those elements towards (at that time) exhilarating, new, ends. Yes, racism is complex, but it's simple when considered in relation to this book, or to its implications. broadly, Max the issue isn't whether or not JRRT is a "conscious racist" or not. This is the author fallacy rearing its defensive head. People react to the word "racist" as if it's this exotic, unspeakable evil, not to be brought up in polite society, and certainly not something complex, multiform and mutable. But it is. It's a systemic, ubiquitous condition of society that changes all the time. It would be hard *not* to be racist if one is a member of a racist society. i think the issue is that both book(s) and film appear to underwrite the great myths of western, and particularly northern/european, civilization, especially the myth of white supremacy. But "racism" doesn't just mean "anti-people of color" --it can also mean anti-Semitism, Orientalism, xenophobia tout court. This should not be surprising, and it certainly shouldn't make folks so defensive as to forestall critical discussion of the cultural artifacts. as for the question of why we like to discuss such things, or what value the discussion has, it's an intellectual pleasure and an ethical imperative to analyze cultural artifacts according to these analytic paradigms. like, why discuss anything? cuz we feel like it. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 11:20:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: "Moonbeam Mistaken for News" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Moonbeam Mistaken for News "I have nothing to say," Sara says, in a broadly contextual and admirably objective manner. In her spare time, Sara is also busy fleecing magazines and newspapers and volunteering as a Big Sister to visiting headhunters. "Head- hunting is terrible, but so," she devoutly believes, "is the disappearance of headhunting arts." Sara deplores the parochial treatment of the arts. Increasingly radical, Sara bridges conceptual gulfs in order to point out and share the experience of others. "Paradox," she says, "has been a friend and teacher on my journey over the last years." Sara's at home (or appears to be) on several continents, both major and minor. Steering clear of conceptual potholes, she puts her trust in shunyata and prajna--in openness and brilliance. Part of her impact is that of a good example, one we all hold dear to us. She, in that Mexican village where she's been having her dark night of the soul for nine years now, reminds us (with Avicenna) that (despite the pre- conditions of the heart) the healing power of prayer, presence, ritual, and passionate love "penetrates all existence." Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard@earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 11:31:06 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Craig Allen Conrad Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings and racism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Robin Hamilton, but since i was the one who used "SciFi" it's okay? since i'm not part of the SciFi (excuse me, the SF--whatever) community? i don't like SF (well, i don't DISlike it, i'm just not interested in it), i just like guys who like SF. guess i have a real sweet-tooth for them, so of course i find myself spinning my web at their gatherings, where all their talk of comparing/contrasting which books are "Hard SF" and "Soft SF" goes in one ear and out the other. but i did want to clarify that Nate, my ex, is a bonafide SF fanatic. it's me who says "SciFi." in my studies of SF nerd men --at least the queer ones-- i've come to the conclusion that they're the same, all over the world. their pace, their glasses... especially when i attended the World SF convention in Philadelphia, it was amazing to see how the nerds from Japan and France had the same intense pace, in particular it's the pace i find interesting. sometimes i think that it's their chronic computer use, like they are matching the computer's pace. but maybe i need to conduct a few more studies, just to be certain. it may take the rest of my life, but it's an important study for future generations. CAConrad p.s. my favorite time at the World con (after the Gaylaxian beer drinking contest with the dykes from Amsterdam and London) was the Weird Al Yinkovich (spelling?) sing-a-long. they were singing with the videos on a huge tv screen, there were no subtitles, and i was the only one in the room of about 70 who didn't know the words. Robin Hamilton wrote: <<<<<<>>>> ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 11:07:00 -0600 Reply-To: hlazer@bama.ua.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: hlazer Organization: The University of Alabama Subject: Discount Offer - McHale's new book MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Announcing the latest volume in the series Modern and Contemporary Poetics, edited by Charles Bernstein and Hank Lazer The Obligation toward the Difficult Whole Postmodernist Long Poems Brian McHale This book is a smart, eclectic analysis of nine long poems written by postmodernist poets who are at once familiar and unfamiliar, canonical and marginalized. Addressing subjects as wide-ranging as angelology, the court masque, pop art, caricature, the cult of the ruin, hip-hop, Spenser's Irish policy, and the aesthetics of silence, Brian McHale pulls varied threads together to identify a repertoire of postmodernist elements characteristic of the long poems he examines. McHale shows how elements from these long poems overlap, interfere, pull in different directions, jar against, and even contradict each other; and he demonstrates how they also echo, amplify, and reinforce each other. They do not slot smoothly together like pieces in a jigsaw puzzle, but they do form (what else?) a difficult whole. "McHale is wonderfully resourceful in changing the subject from chapter to chapter to fit the poems discussed, and while his approach adheres to the conventions of textual exegesis, the chapters really shine as orchestrations of issues. For instance, James Merrill's The Changing Light at Sandover works unexpectedly well in raising the subject of found poetry and procedural composition; Melvin Tolson's Harlem Gallery and Edward Dorn's Gunslinger are effectively paired to demonstrate the period flavor of pastiche; Geoffrey Hill's Mercian Hymns and Armand Schwerner's The Tablets explode the modernist fixation with depth; John Ashbery's work is given a nuanced reading as proto-theory; Letter to an Imaginary Friend by Thomas McGrath provides a lucid backdrop to raise the question of political efficacy in approaching language poet Bruce Andrews; and Susan Howe's The Europe of Trusts is explored for its intertextual tapestry." --Jed Rasula, author ofSyncopations: The Stress of Innovation in Contemporary American Poetry Brian McHale is Professor of English at Ohio State University, coeditor of the journal Poetics Today, and author of Postmodernist Fiction and Constructing Postmodernism. 296 pages, 6 x 9 ISBN 0-8173-5030-6 $29.95 paper ISBN 0-8173-1302-8 $60.00 cloth SPECIAL OFFER TO POETICS LISTSERV 20% DISCOUNT WHEN YOU MENTION THAT YOU ARE ON THE POETICS LISTSERV OFFER EXPIRES 27 February 2004 To order contact Elizabeth Motherwell E-mail emother@uapress.ua.edu Phone (205) 348-7108 Fax (205) 348-9201 or mail to: The University of Alabama Press Marketing Department Box 870380 Tuscaloosa, AL 35487-0380 Attn: Elizabeth Motherwell www.uapress.ua.edu McHale/The Obligation toward the Difficult Whole paper discounted price $23.96 ISBN 0-8173-5030-6 cloth discounted price $48.00 ISBN 0-8173-1302-8 Subtotal ________________ Illinois residents add 8.75% sales tax ________________ USA orders: add $4.50 postage for the first book and $1.00 for each additional book _________________ Canada residents add 7% sales tax _________________ International orders: add $5.50 postage for the first book and $1.00 for each additional book _________________ Enclosed as payment in full _________________ (Make checks payable to The University of Alabama Press) Bill my: _________Visa _________MasterCard Account number _______________________________ Daytime phone________________________________ Expiration date ________________________________ Full name____________________________________ Signature ____________________________________ Shipping Address______________________________ City _________________________________________ State_______________________ Zip ______________ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 12:29:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: FW: Eats, shoots and leaves. In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > This reminds me of the age old joke about the 'kiwi' male (both bird and > human) who 'eats, roots and leaves'. Probably lost on puzzled Americans who > think of a kiwi as a small greenish brown fruit - known here as a 'Chinese > gooseberry' - or 'kiwifruit'. > > Dan Also because NORTHamericans think "root" means "cheer for." -- George Bowering Vacuumed Bruce Wayne's Mansion 303 Fielden Ave. Port Colborne. ON, L3K 4T5 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 12:40:30 -0500 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: racism... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 'member..if it comes from the west "it's" racism.. ..............if it comes from the rest 'it's' understandable ethno-centrism... um..um...drn... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 10:05:53 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Weishaus Subject: Fw: In The Moment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "hammond guthrie" To: "Joel" Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 9:21 AM Subject: FW: In The Moment > More sad news - just learned via Charlie Plymell that Dan Propper dove into > the next Bardo in Nov. 2003. Just in case you didn't know - obit below... > > Hammond > > > Subject: Dan Propper obit > > Friends and Comrades: > > Some of you have probably already received the news of Danny Propper's death > in late November. I was able to convince my former employers, the Woodstock > (NY) Times, that he deserved an obituary. Here's my obit as it appeared in > the January 1, 2004 edition of the paper, accompanied by a photo and a poem. > Feel free to spread it around in your respective online and/or print > publications. (Just for the record: Dan's son is actually named "Wylie," but > for personal reasons he asked me to cite him as "Willie." I gave Wylie the > addresses for both Hunger and Mad Blood, so Padma and J.J. will each be > hearing from him directly re unpublished poems. If anyone else is interested > in Danny's unpublished work, drop me a note and I'll send you Wylie's > address.) > > Daniel T. "Danny" Propper > > Danny Propper, a second-generation Beat poet who swung with the best of > them, died on Saturday, November 22, at his cabin on John Joy Road in > Saugerties. He was 66 years old. > > A self-described "quasi recluse," Propper had been an elder statesman of > Woodstock's lively poetry scene since the early 1990s. Prior to that, as a > sales rep for Decca Records, a sometime teamster, and an "amazing tramp," he > made the late '50s-early '60s Beat scenes in New York City, San Francisco, > New Orleans, and Denver. Back then, in the heyday of the hipster > coffeehouse, Propper, who described his poetry in a 1991 Woodstock Times > interview as being in the "bebop Hebraic long-line romantic surrealist" > mode, recited his poems, on several memorable occasions, to the > accompaniment of Dizzy Gillespie's trumpet, or Thelonious Monk's piano and > Roy Haynes's drums. His "Fable of the Final Hour," a wildly cinematic long > poem featuring apocalyptic cartoon imagery, was published in Seymour Krim's > landmark 1960 anthology, The Beats, and subsequently enjoyed great > popularity among declamatory performers at poetry readings from New York's > East Village to San Francisco's North Beach. > > "He was one of the smartest men I've ever met," said Dean Schambach, the > dean of Woodstock's open-reading emcees. "His knowledge was encyclopedic; he > knew jazz backwards and forwards, knew it cold. He'd come to the readings > and make so many rich observations. He sometimes had a cruel sense of humor, > because he was so bright, but he could be sweet and tender and innocent, > too." > > And, like so many of his peers, he could be self-destructive. In Propper's > early years his vice of choice was Benzedrine; it was the decades of heavy > smoking, however, that cut his set short. Several friends related how, a > couple of years ago, following lung surgery, he prevailed upon his buddy, > the late Bob Dacey, to stop for a carton of cigarettes on his way home from > the hospital. Yet Propper accepted himself as he was, much as he always > accepted others as they were, and never pissed or moaned about the > repercussions of his bad habits. Indeed, because he never complained, many > of those close to him had no idea how sick he was over the last few years. > > Propper was born in Coney Island Hospital on April 13, 1937. He studied with > Stanley Kunitz at the New School for Social Research; Kunitz advised him to > drop out, and Propper never looked back. He did maintain a friendly > correspondence with Kunitz for many years after, sending him poems and > signing them, "Your grateful student, Danny." His published work includes > three volumes of poetry-The Fable of the Final Hour (Energy Press, 1958); > The Tale of the Amazing Tramp (Cherry Valley Editions, 1977); and For > Kerouac in Heaven (Energy Press, 1980)-along with some translations of Pablo > Neruda. He also published scads of poems in as many lit mags-Evergreen > Review, Invisible City, Coldspring Journal, Longhouse,and Hunger, to name > just a few. But for Propper, publication was incidental to being a poet; he > was most emphatically not a self-promoter, which made him closer to the pure > spirit of being "Beat" than many a beatnik of greater renown. He once > intimated to this writer that he had a "gang of stuff" squirreled away in > notebooks and loose papers; among his effects at the time of his death was a > briefcase full of unpublished poems, which is now in the possession of his > son. > > "I learned so much from him," said Myrna Hilton, his "New York Times puzzle > buddy" and a fast friend over the last 10 years. "His words, his passion at > live readings, often brought the audience to a frenzy, begging for more." > > In the fable of his own final hour, Propper chose to pooh-pooh a bed at the > hospital and opted to die peacefully at home. Shortly after his death, a > dozen or so of his friends and his son, Willie, gathered at his cabin in the > woods. They spread his ashes over the property, saving some for a favored > fishing hole in Jersey, and took turns standing on the stump of a newly hewn > tree, offering praise to the poet and the man. Last Saturday, recalling the > ceremony, Willie said, "I look forward to catching five-pound flounders with > him in heaven." > > It would certainly speak well of the Creator if, in addition to those > flounders, Danny Propper could spend eternity catching jazz in celestial > bistros, sitting at a table near the stage and digging his beloved Monk, > Diz, Bud, and Charlie Parker, and every once in an endless while stepping up > to the mic himself, to blow. > > In addition to his son, survivors include his parents, Stanley and Ruth > Dreisin Propper, and his aunt Rita. ++ > > Mikhail Horowitz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 13:11:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: FW: Eats, shoots and leaves. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit { Subject: Re: FW: Eats, shoots and leaves. { { { > This reminds me of the age old joke about the 'kiwi' male (both bird and { > human) who 'eats, roots and leaves'. Probably lost on puzzled Americans who { > think of a kiwi as a small greenish brown fruit - known here as a 'Chinese { > gooseberry' - or 'kiwifruit'. { > { > Dan { { Also because NORTHamericans think "root" means "cheer for." We also use "shoots" as a euphemism for "shits," and the latter lends itself to a bit of interesting wordplay also. Hal Not responsible for typographical errors. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard@earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 13:49:11 -0500 Reply-To: olsonjk@delhi.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kirby Olson Organization: SUNY Delhi Subject: Re: lotr n racism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii It's certainly virtuous to discuss racism. But the funny thing about virtue is that it always hides vice. So when people try to use the cover story of virtuousness when discussing racism, it covers the fact that what they really want to be is vicious. As vicious as possible. That's what we really like about this discussion: it offers so many possibilities to be vicious while seeming virtuous. We can become downright murderous, and call it a good cause. -- Kirby Olson ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 19:10:30 -0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robin Hamilton Subject: Re: lotr n racism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Maria Damon" > the issue isn't whether or not JRRT is a "conscious racist" or not. I'd agree -- and I wouldn't want to discount either unconscious or instititional racism in the books, let alone the film(s) -- but the *really* uncomfortable edge here around LOTR (The Book) isn't race but class -- race may be in the background, but class is *well* to the foreground. Not that this makes the book any the less powerful. I simply think JRRT is more complex as a writer than much of this discussion makes him out to be. {And yes, there are stunning problems about his clunky boilerplate prose style.} I mean, even before we get to the point of linking Tolkien-the-fabulist with Tolkien-the-academic, anyone other than me mentioned The Hobbit? Bloody hell, he *did* write that before he wrote LOTR. Robin Hamilton ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 11:16:54 -0800 Reply-To: kalamu@aol.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ishaq Organization: Selah7 http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html Subject: INFO: black website to market poetry Comments: To: THCO2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit INFO: black website to market poetry ============================== << http://www.poetology.com >> Poetology.com LLC is an organization dedicated to the practice and appreciation of the spoken word. The organization was founded by Atif Saleem and fellow Penn State alumni Alansan Sesay who realized there is a growing cultural movement in our country surrounding the art of spoken word expression and for this movement to survive it must be well supported and spread to the masses. Poetic spoken expression is an art form practiced and appreciated by all, which transcends racial and stratifying boundaries. Poetology is an organization composed of men and women from various backgrounds that practice and/or appreciate and support this growing art form. The mission of Poetology is to create a greater community consisting of communities that currently exist, by pooling talent and support to share thoughts, feelings, ideas and opinions through the spoken word. Our current initiative is to create a base of support in the Baltimore/Washington Metropolitan area from which we can constantly share and grow. We are currently hosting poetry venues in downtown Baltimore and College Park, MD. Since its inaguration Poetology has hosted many of the "who's who" in spoken word including International and National Slam Champion Gayle Danley, International Slam Champion Taalam Acey, Philly Def Jam Champion Lamar Hill, Reggie Gibson, inspiration and writer of the poetry for the movie Love Jones, Saul Williams of slam and movie fame and many, many, many more talented individuals. More importantly, we have the support of many local and first time poets who just come to the mic and share and that's what this movement is all about. The members of Poetology enjoy bringing poetic expression to the public, as well as supporting other local venues, but this does not however encompass our overall aim. Short term goals entail bringing together local venues to insure that time and opportunity for expression are shared and distributed logistically whenever possible, giving all venues the chance to succeed with out opposition. Since poetology can be practiced and enjoyed by all from the cradle to the grave, we want to be able to provide avenues whereas all can indulge. Long term, we have plans to initiate an after school program in Baltimore that will examine poetic expression, from haiku's to Hip-Hop. We intend to work with today's youth to put their thoughts, concerns, and feelings in artistic form for public consumption. On the collegiate level we intend to provide showcases of talent from the area's perspective colleges alongside "seasoned" spoken word artist and to also bring together talent from a variety of area schools for friendly competition and appreciation. Poetology is also dedicated to the continued support of all local venues. We have a calendar on our web site (http://www.poetology.com ) which is constantly updated to reflect a gamut of poetologic events in the area. Poetology believes in the necessity of local venues, each has it's own flavor and culture that appeals to its own particular patrons. In short, Poetology aims to be the vehicle to bring this greater community together, through all artistic and intellectual exchange of thoughts and ideas affiliated with the art of poetry and the spoken word. Feel free to contact us at: Poetology.com LLC 910 St. Paul Street, Suite C Baltimore, MD 21202 877-504-3140 info@poetology.com Poeticking Online -- - ___ Stay Strong "Peace sells but who's buying?" Megadeth "This mathematical rhythmatical mechanism enhances my wisdom of Islam, keeps me calm from doing you harm, when I attack, it's Vietnam" --HellRazah "It's not too good to stay in a white man's country too long" Mutabartuka http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html http://awol.objector.org/artistprofiles/welfarepoets.html http://ilovepoetry.com/search.asp?keywords=braithwaite&orderBy=date http://www.dpgrecordz.com/fredwreck/ http://www.lowliferecords.co.uk/ http://loudandoffensive.com/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/THCO2 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 19:24:30 -0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robin Hamilton Subject: Re: lotr n racism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ... I mean here in Britain, we once actually elected The Ultimate Hobbit -- warm beer drunk watching slow Sunday afternoon village cricket -- and called him John Major. This was beyond angels weep -- they threw down their spears and retired to the pavilion to discuss setting-up the Socialist Workers' Party. Sad but true. Robin ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 12:39:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: CHAX and POG present Elizabeth Treadwell, Tuesday January 13 at BIBLIO Comments: To: Tenney Nathanson MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit POG and CHAX PRESS present: a poetry reading and book launch Elizabeth Treadwell Tuesday January 13 2004 7pm at Biblio bookstore 222 E. Congress Street Tucson, Arizona Admission: $5/$3 students for information call Chax Press at 620-1626 Elizabeth Treadwell lives with her family in Oakland, California. Her other books include Populace (Avec, 1999) and LILYFOIL + 3 (O Books, 2004). She directs Small Press Traffic in San Francisco. Chax Press announces a new book: CHANTRY, by Elizabeth Treadwell published in 2004, and available for the first time at this event. Chantry is song. Chantry is song that exceeds song structure in all dimensions to become invocation and enchantment. From “the vessel without a cover” to “late silhouette in / blue” it refuses to be contained, as a book wants to live outside its covers. ***** (from CHANTRY) distomap for the coded mountains, pale frontier, or the devotions for my sisters, Margaret & Carol “This faith was expressed using symbols of shaped metal, embroidered cloth, carved wood, and painted canvas.” —curator, San Xavier Mission, Tucson, Arizona, U.S.A. in a well-sought dream remember think of something plain like Grammy’s tears; think of something plain like the color and curvature of gingerale nightgown & bend & kink of patio, how the 3rd vowel of her name was scratched in. **************** This event is supported in part by the Tucson Pima Arts Council and by the Arizona Commission on the Arts with funding from the State of Arizona and the National Endowment for the Arts. mailto:tenney@dakotacom.net mailto:nathanso@u.arizona.edu http://www.u.arizona.edu/~nathanso/tn POG: mailto:pog@gopog.org http://www.gopog.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 15:18:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetry Project Subject: Upcoming Events and Workshops at the Poetry Project Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hello hello!=20 How about a poetry excerpt: =B3Jagged are names and not our creatures/ Either in kind or movement like th= e flowers.=B2=20 --Veronica Forrest-Thomson, from =B3Pastoral=B2 How about a poetry reading? How about two? Next week then! * MONDAY, JANUARY 12 Douglas A. Martin & Eve Kosofsky Sedgwick Douglas Martin has published two collections of poetry and a novel, Outline of My Lover, which was named an International Book of the Year by the Times Literary Supplement and adapted in part by the Ballet Frankfurt for its production, =B3Kammer/Kammer.=B2 He is a co-author of The Haiku Year, to be republished by Soft Skull Press this winter. Since his novel, he has been writing on Hart Crane, Balthus, Francis Bacon, and Branwell Bronte. He teaches in the continuing education program of the New School for Social Research. Eve Sedgwick's poetry has appeared in journals including Salamagundi, Massachusetts Review, Diacritics and Raritan. Her first book o= f poetry, Fat Art, Thin Art, was published by Duke University Press in 1994. She has taught creative writing, Victorian literature, and queer studies fo= r over 25 years. Her other work includes Between Men: English Literature and Male Homosocial Desire, Epistemology of the Closet, and A Dialogue on Love, a book-length haibun published by Beacon Press in 1998. [8:00 p.m.] =20 WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 14 John Godfrey & Patricia Spears Jones John Godfrey=B9s latest books are Push the Mule (The Figures, 2001) and Private Lemonade (Adventures in Poetry, 2003). A longtime resident of Lower Manhattan, he has, as they say, been things and seen places. Patricia Spear= s Jones is the author of Mythologizing Always (Telephone Books, 1981) and The Weather That Kills (Coffee House Press, 1995). Her poems have appeared in numerous journals, including Agni, Callaloo, The Kenyon Review, New Black Writing, and The World, and in the anthologies bumrush the page: a defpoetryjam and Poetry After 9/11: An Anthology of New York Poets, among others. A longtime friend of the Poetry Project, she has worked as Wednesda= y Night Coordinator, Program Coordinator, and Workshop Leader. She lives in Brooklyn and teaches at Parsons School of Design. [8:00 p.m.] * ANNOUNCING SPRING 2004 WORKSHOPS: ON THE CITY =AD BRENDA COULTAS TUESDAYS AT 7 PM: 10 SESSIONS BEGIN FEBRUARY 17TH Coultas writes, =B3For this workshop our topic is the city. The class will survey poems and prose written on, in, or about cities and cityscapes, and develop investigative methods and other media as models. Students need to bring a copy of William Carlos Williams' Paterson to class.=B2 Brenda Coultas= =B9 books include A Handmade Museum, The Bowery Project, Early Films, and A Summer Newsreel. Her work has also appeared in Conjunctions, Fence, and The Poetry Project Newsletter. TO POETRY: A DEDICATION WORKSHOP =AD BRENDAN LORBER FRIDAYS AT 7 PM: 10 SESSIONS BEGIN FEBRUARY 20TH Lorber writes, =B3When you dedicate a poem you convert it to a gift, conscrip= t the poem into the service of something beyond yourself. This workshop will explore techniques and implications of writing for, to, about, after, with, even as other people; examine and experiment with such connective forms as the ode, love poem, eulogy, elegy, epithalamion, encomium, canso, the dozens, poetry portrait, collaboration and non-poetry forms such as advertising, threatening letters, fan mail, and subpoenas. This is NOT a workshop in the poetry of sentimentality. To shove us in more interesting directions, we=B9ll draw from traditions including 7th century Arab and Persian poetics, European courtly love, Beat, NY School, Language and some contemporary poets you might run into on the subway.=B2 Brendan Lorber is the editor of LUNGFULL! magazine and author of The Address Book and DASH. POETRY FOR THE PAGE, STAGE, & COMPUTER SCREEN =AD TOM SAVAGE SATURDAYS AT 12 PM: 10 SESSIONS BEGIN FEBRUARY 21ST Savage writes, =B3This workshop will present readings, inspirations, and influences from the past fifty years of American poetry in the Beat, New York School, Language, Spoken Word, and Digital =B3traditions=B2 as they have made themselves manifest. Poets whose work seems important in this regard include Ginsberg, Berrigan, O'Hara, Ashbery, Levertov, Duncan, Mac Low, Koch, Surrealist Plays, Olson, Creeley, Kushner, Torres, Elmslie, Notley, Mayer, Cage, Szymborska, Neruda and others.=B2 Tom Savage is the author of several volumes of poetry, including Brain Surgery Poems, Political Conditions/Physical States, and From Heart to Balkh and Back Again. The Fine Print: The workshop fee is $300, which includes a one year Individual Poetry Project membership and tuition for any and all spring classes, as well as tuition for next fall=B9s classes. Reservations (incl. name, address, phone and email) are required due to limited class space and payment must be received in advance. Please send payment and reservations to: The Poetry Project, St. Mark's Church, 131 E. 10 St., NY, NY 10003. For more information, please call (212) 674 0910, or e-mail: info@poetryproject.com. * The Poetry Project is located at St. Mark's Church-in-the-Bowery 131 East 10th Street at Second Avenue New York City 10003 Trains: 6, F, N, R, and L. info@poetryproject.com www.poetryproject.com Admission is $8, $7 for students/seniors and $5 for members (though now those who take out a membership at $85 or higher will get in free to all regular readings). We are wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. For more info call 212-674-0910. * ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 21:35:46 +0100 Reply-To: magee@uni.lodz.pl Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Magee Subject: Cid Corman's Voice MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit He was, once, one afternoon, at Iowa, the International Writing Program--fall, it would have to have been, 1981. He was, there was a panel, Paul Engle, Donald Justice, Larry Levis and Corman, he was at the far end on the one end of the panel with a stack of books (nobody else had any books except their own) and Engle getting the panel started said to him, "Are you going to read _all_ those books Cid?" He read from one of them, Olson's, like they mattered, the language the books were written in, and he used his breath a lot - sharp, sudden stops - breathing in - bringing the air in his chest down on a word or - what was it? - there's no visualization, now, or then, there couldn't have been, except maybe he was using one hand to mark the timing, it's too long ago, maybe they got it on tape, 1982, he was just reading, voicing, the words in the air - breathed - "Goliardys is a glutton of words, singing and swigging and swinging a barrel of books as many as might be held with both arms" Market Tender Family, Conjunctions 22, Spring 1994 That was him, Corman, it had to have been. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 13:41:48 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: Heriberto Yepez? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit does anybody know whether heribertoyepez@yahoo.com is still a good address? does anybody have another current one? thanks, Tenney mailto:tenney@dakotacom.net mailto:nathanso@u.arizona.edu http://www.u.arizona.edu/~nathanso/tn POG: mailto:pog@gopog.org http://www.gopog.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 16:57:22 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Laura Elrick Subject: Jen Coleman and Frank Sherlock in NYC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit SEGUE READING SERIES AT THE BOWERY POETRY CLUB Saturday, January 10: Jen Coleman and Frank Sherlock http://www.bowerypoetry.com/ 308 BOWERY, JUST NORTH OF HOUSTON SATURDAYS FROM 4 - 6 PM $5 admission goes to support the readers Jen Coleman is a Minnesota poet in Brooklyn by way of D.C. She co-edits the poetry journal PomPom. Her chapbooks include Propinquity and the pocket-sized Doctrine of the Rude Dream. You can see Jen's work at www.speakeasy.org/subtext/poetry/jencoleman and at www.theeastvillage.com/v12.htm. Frank Sherlock is the curator of the La Tazza Reading Series. He is once again collaborating w/ fellow Philly Sound poet CA Conrad. Their latest investigative poem project is The City Real & Imagined: Philadelphia Poems. Funding is made possible by the continuing support of the Segue Foundation and the Literature Program of the New York State Council on the Arts. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 16:53:17 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Haas Bianchi Subject: Re: lotr n racism In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -I think here is the issue; Catholic intellectuals-- JRR Tolkien, Hillare Belloc, Jacques Maritian, GK Chesterton and even Americans like Thomas Merton and Dorothy Day have a nostalgia for the middle ages. -- and part of the creation of European Christian identity is based in being against the other and this arose in the Middle Ages because of the trauma of the Barbarian invasions. The crusades for example is the best manifestation of this but the Reconquista in Spain, Conquest of the Americas, Colonialism and many more movememnts. The fact is that this is the way that the Christian world came out of the dark ages, by thinking of themselves as 'chosen'. This mentality comes partly from Judaism but also from the unique christian idea of the incarnation. This kind of thinking sits right below the surface of Tolkien's work. IT does not make it less well written et cetera but the fact is that the entire history of the west is based on this and Tolkien's work is filled with this kind of reasoning. Having said this other cultures also possess this sense of being chosen. Islam for example conquered huge areas because they were filled with a sense of "mission" remember Turkey, Egypt, Syria and Palestine were Christian once, Iran was Zoroastrian and Pakistan was Hindu/Buddhist. The problem is that the West is still in control and Islam is not. I have never been one for Political Correctness, but the fact is that Tolkien's work, and other western fantasy work is based in teh concept of there being 'others' less 'chosen'. RB > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Maria Damon > Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 8:17 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: lotr n racism > > > the issue isn't whether or not JRRT is a "conscious racist" or not. > This is the author fallacy rearing its defensive head. People react > to the word "racist" as if it's this exotic, unspeakable evil, not to > be brought up in polite society, and certainly not something complex, > multiform and mutable. But it is. It's a systemic, ubiquitous > condition of society that changes all the time. It would be hard > *not* to be racist if one is a member of a racist society. i think > the issue is that both book(s) and film appear to underwrite the > great myths of western, and particularly northern/european, > civilization, especially the myth of white supremacy. But "racism" > doesn't just mean "anti-people of color" --it can also mean > anti-Semitism, Orientalism, xenophobia tout court. This should not > be surprising, and it certainly shouldn't make folks so defensive as > to forestall critical discussion of the cultural artifacts. as for > the question of why we like to discuss such things, or what value the > discussion has, it's an intellectual pleasure and an ethical > imperative to analyze cultural artifacts according to these analytic > paradigms. like, why discuss anything? cuz we feel like it. > -- > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 19:27:05 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anselm Hollo Subject: mr olson among the wild finns MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I do have to take Kirby Olson to task for claiming that "the Finns appear to have come from a Mongoloid race in Siberia." This is a racist statement based on Germano-Russian pseudoscience of the late nineteenth century. Recent genetic studies show that 90 per cent of the Finnish genome is Germanic: this seems to indicate a very gradual migration, in prehistoric times, of tribes from the south and east (present-day Central Europe and Sweden) whose members adopted the language of the "Finn" residents who may have arrived not from Siberia, but regions around the Ural mountains. As Kirby notes, linguistic tracings don't determine "anything much about immigration patterns." But then he follows this up with "The only language that is much like theirs are tiny Siberian tribes, and Hungarian" -- oops again: Estonian, spoken just across the Gulf of Finland, and Karelian, spoken in the western parts of Russia, are closely related. The literatures of Estonia, Finland, and Hungary are voluminous and fascinating, and held in high regard in Europe (where people learn many languages, and like to read literature in translation). As for Kirby's bad experiences in Finnish drinking establishments, they sound to me as apocryphal as his knowledge of Finland's linguistic and historical heritage -- or if not apocryphal, self-provoked by being in the wrong place at the wrong time more than once ! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 20:11:02 -0500 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: the problem is... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 'the problem is that the west is still in control and Islam is not' this begs the question of the problem to whom... but it does answer the question of why the flood of awful Islamic po will continue to rain down on us trans. from U's...from c to shining see... drn... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 18:28:32 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: Dodie Bellamy & Eleni Stecopoulos In-Reply-To: <200401060659.i066x2L8208438@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net> Content-Type: text/plain; delsp=yes; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable correction, Saturday the 24th.. not Sunday... apologizes kari On Thursday, January 8, 2004, at 08:15 AM, kari edwards wrote: > Please forward !!!! > > Announcing: > a wonderful reading not to be missed... > an evening with: > > Dodie Bellamy > Eleni Stecopoulos > > > Sunday, Jan. 24 7:00 p.m. > 3435 Cesar Chavez > #327 > San Francisco, CA > > > Dodie Bellamy's latest book Cunt-Ups (Tender Buttons) won the 2002 =20 > Firecracker Alternative Book Award for poetry. Her infamous =20 > epistolary vampire novel, The Letters of Mina Harker, will be =20 > reprinted in 2004 by the University of Wisconsin Press. Also in 2004 =20= > San Francisco's Suspect Thoughts will publish Pink Steam, a collection = =20 > of stories, memoirs and memoiresque essays. She is currently working =20= > on The Fourth Form, a multi-dimensional sex novel. This semester she =20= > is, insanely, teaching fiction writing at San Francisco State, Antioch = =20 > Los Angeles, and CalArts. > > > Eleni Stecopoulos's poetry and poetics have appeared in the New York =20= > Times, Harvard Review, Open Letter, Zazil, Chain, Rust Talks, and =20 > elsewhere. Her essay =93Geopathy=94 is forthcoming in Ecopoetics. She = is =20 > finishing a dissertation out of Buffalo on Artaud, Paul Metcalf, =20 > autoethnography, alphabetic terror, Chinese medicine, time and the =20 > American frontier, etc. > > = ***********************************************************************=20= > * > > > DIRECTIONS: to 3435 Cesar Chavez #327 > > between Valencia and Mission, on the South side of Cesar Chavez is a > parking lot entrance; which when you first enter from Cesar Chavez = will > be (some) guest parking. Parking in the area (on the street) is not to > bad. Once you have entered the parking lot go to your left past a > small printing company and directly behind that (to the west) will be > double glass doors. @ left of the Doors is a =93buzzer system=94 press = the > number 043. someone will pick up the phone and buzz you in. > > Mass transit. > > Bart - get off at 24th go south on Mission, (the numbers will get > higher) walk 3 blocks, cross Cesar Chavez (there will be a stop light) > go right 3/4 of a block, turn left in to parking lot. > > MUNI- get off @ 27th walk north (the opposite direction the muni would > be going from down town) walk one block turn right on Cesar chavez, > Cross Delores, Guerrero and then cross valencia, turn right into first > parking lot. > > Buses- on Mission take (going southish)- 14. 14L, 49 (get off at 26th = - > 1/2 block from cesar chavez - walk south - cross Cesar Chavez turn > right; Valencia - 26 get off just past Cesar Chavez , cross Valencia = on > Cesar Chavez, turn right into parking lot.. > > ________________________________________________________________ > > any questions contact: > kari edwards > terra1@sonic.net > _______________________________________________________ > > > This is another home reading brought to you by, Taylor Brady, = Stephanie > Young, and kari edwards. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 22:22:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "R. Drake" Subject: Douglas Blazek bibliography In-Reply-To: <200401080503.i0853rEb020258@mx14.mx.voyager.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 1/8/04 12:03 AM, Automatic digest processor at LISTSERV@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU wrote: > > Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 10:09:44 -0800 > From: James DenBoer > Subject: Douglas Blazek > > I've just published a Bibliography of the Published Work of Douglas Blazek > 1961-2001, with Glass Eye Books, Northampton. It's 200 pages of Blazek's > prolific publishing life -- his own poems in books, magazines, anthologies; > his magazines Ole and Open Skull, the books he edited and published with > Open Skull Press, reviews, etc. > > I also did a short bio/introduction. You can order from me: $15.95 plus > $2.00 postage, but Poetics members will get a 20% discount: so $12.75 plus > $2.00 postage. I take credit cards, check, money orders, cash. Order from > me: > > James DenBoer > 1517 3rd Street > Sacramento CA 95814 > jamesdb@paperwrk.com > > Blazek was a moving force in the Mimeo Revolution, concurrent with the > Beats to some extent, first in Chicago, then San Francisco, then > Sacramento, involving as well D. r. Wagner, d. a. levy, that whole > Cleveland gang, Bukowski for a while: Meat Poets they sometimes called > themselves. . . . > > Poets, scholars, booksellers, libraries . . . useful to all. > Thanks > James DenBoer > > PS > Blazek anecdotes welcome, or comments on his work. > > PAPERWORK > James DenBoer > 1517 3rd Street, Sacramento CA 95814 > Voice: 916/492-8917 (NEW) > jamesdb@paperwrk.com > > See my inventory at ABE > http://www.abebooks.com/home/PAPERWRK/ > See my inventory at Bibliodirect: > http://www.bibliodirect.com/searches.php?DealerID=210 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 22:40:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: second MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII second at the Metropolitan today, looking at Oribe and Mino ware. Momoyama period. then rereading my Antarctic writings from Hobart (Tasmania), 1982. 'Who controls discourse controls the law.' listen: 'the body an inductive body, the play of logics extending everywhere, collapse and extensions of spectrums, running-on, probabilistic wave-function, union extends and intersection blurs, the former altering distributivity. the editorializing body operating within a limited bandwidth, a situation of sampling through the elocution of the gesture, the sway, field phenomena melding, crossing the skin, adjacent holes.' doesn't this - two + decades later - become the network society - as if it never existed in the first place, a priori? something I was aware of back in 71, with my analysis of the tangled holarchies of immersive and definable structures - how one looks at things through time, how things may remain outside of time, outside of temporality, how humans bring time to things. and here from 82 is the net: 'body-centered, it is the body which extends, consciousness as a wake following, recuperating the extensions through language. images play across the surface; these are ingested, failing distributivity. the images as phenomenological appetition, a process of accretion.' 'the body of thought as in a body of water.' look for the packet-sniffers, on an average day I receive 500 emails, of which only perhaps 360 are spam. how can one remember the distinctions among Oribe and Mino, the Chinese 17th- century Nanking painters, the enormous collection of Japanese work in the Bridge of Dreams show we saw years ago? images pour through the world, falling into adjacencies. I can't keep distinctions, separations; my work is cultural flux, not the exigencies of boundary-formations, not even the margins - the world folds in on itself. and reading in this regard Shaviro, who I think gets networks 'wrong' - begin with the thing and the arrow, the protocol and the carrying-capacity; extend through looping and filtration - one might find networks are precisely dead, hillside skeins, whose content is otherwise-driven, and never to encounter itself - no more than one phonecall can understand another. enough notes, and I wish I could sign this Jennifer. [third] _ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 22:07:29 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lewis LaCook Subject: she's like that sometimes Comments: cc: jen berry , Ron Conn , cyberculture , Kathryn Dean-Dielman , karen stoic lemley , underground poetry , naked readings , Renee , rhizome , webartery , wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Silence licks a metonymy, without those localizing articles you saw and ordered from Ghaza. Rhododendrons unruffle among shifts of iceberg pause, almost lactating with barbs. I listed each in its own table, and then queried what was softer than I. The bytecode docking in premature thickness. The awkward hallow of introspection. Insecticide tickling over my fingers like a bald spray of lisping baby's breath, this thread that splits ends nowhere near where you snore, or else I would come to get you. To kiss you. Seems almost lucid when the pendulous daylights slip across me. A coal morning of slow participles needs cigarette food in silence unlocking unquiet cat's feet upon my bloodied boots. Today I'm covered by the film of loss, flickering gauze just fit to my skin, won't wash off. You kissed my dreams raw until they stung and I got up, robot water and coffee flung agravated from my eyes. I keep asking you if it's true there are things softer than myself. "This room is the exact same color as old wine." You failed to mention my confidence, which omits any and all such cacophony of intimacies. I pry daisies from your shadow, worn like a tan into my complexion. This skin (which is mine, nourished in your heart) kills everything wintered by a long frantic walk. The adjectives cluster. A novel evolves at the mention of igniting spider tines. "Stuck. You don't want to pin me to living with you like a fucked-up child. Sucking another raw sunrise, you see the difference." I must have left the equations in my other coat. Aspiring to a matte finish, Christine who loves the cocaine loves an afternoon's obelisk, even when my head's erad by silicon. "Who wouldn't find that bleeding edge erotic?" Christine's ended, too, buttocks spread like a Cobra's hood. Brad reached into, pulling toward him the tray shivered with these vvials of serum. "Fuck me harder. Fuck me like you fuck your dad*" It's quiet now. The word for the day is autodidact. Ducts ramble in a quagmire as acid; as acid is access to voluptuousness uprooted or re-routed somewhat; at access is issue, of consequence, hereto. I lay my hand to Brad. Last night a cop on my block tried to get off. Christine tells us: cells, lepidoptics, staining glass until it trembles with your veins. At least you end your login session with a kiss. I'm stuck here with Brad, an absolute other; he's autistic, a system pistil of amorous withdrawal, but then Christine's insides are a butter of silk. "Would you like to see my collection? Everyone who has ever loved me has given me a lousy t-shirt. On days like this, when the gravity's so low we can't seem to stay together, I take my bowl of grapenuts out onto the back deck to watch the sun rise. " Snow moans, so chilling they swaddle my throat mid-gulp. Brad notes that Christine mentioned once that I claim to be responsive with a cube of ice, stroking it as if drawing the moisture across your chapped labia. In the dessert, sand is whipped to the consistency of topaz; articles seperate luxuriously from their objects, leaving me strung out behind the dunes and not sure and not if I'm single or plural, reciprocity of the feminine or heart-gnawed recitation of the shelves of a knifed sky expiring. "Yeah, she's like that sometimes* " I know you are, but what am I? Brad, where did the outside go? "Straining light to separate articles from their objects, there is no designation giddy with ideals. The pure form of you is a myth I bite with grappling eyes." The Upanishads mention a delicate androgyny of hydrogen as this mother, as this father: behind my cock, waves that solve, threading in a pant of mouths. Cover yourself for God's sake Christine! "Hydrageas subtly echo across your chest. " Not that you are unengaged. No money no hope. Not. I have boundless enthusiasm for every undertaking I took. ===== This is as useful as a doll.--Gertrude Stein Poem of the Day:http://www.lewislacook.com/POD/index.php associate editor, _sidereality http://www.sidereality.com/ -------- http://www.lewislacook.com/ tubulence artist studio: http://turbulence.org/studios/lacook/index.html __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 22:37:34 -0800 Reply-To: Ishaq1823@telus.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ishaq Organization: Selah7 http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html Subject: ANTHANY DAWSON FACT SHEET -- Rose Henry August 2002 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://victoria.indymedia.org/news/2004/01/20251.php ANTHANY DAWSON FACT SHEET - Rose Henry August 2002 It was at this point that several witnesses report seeing what appeared to be excessive physical violence done to Anthany by police officer(s): “When I saw him being punched it made me feel sick.” It is alleged an officer said, “When I tell you to roll over, you fuckin roll over.” Witnesses also say police appeared to be joking and laughing as they stood behind the ambulance once Anthany had been put inside. ANTHANY DAWSON FACT SHEET - by Rose Henry August 2002 August 7, 1999 Ceremony at Police Station with Totem pole raising to enhance and reinforce a better working relationship between Aboriginal people and law enforcement personnel. August 11, 1999 Mid afternoon: Anthany got into his car and headed for home to meet his mother. He was fit, in good health and with no injuries to his body. Near Victoria High School Anthany seems to have pulled his car over and at approximately 4:30 phoned and left a message for his mom saying he was on his way. We do not know what happened from the time he called his mother until the time the first 911 call was placed. At Stadacona Park Anthany was seen clutching his head as he walked. He was moaning and groaning and seemed to be in great pain. He appeared to be extremely hot and started to remove his clothing and run in and out of rush hour traffic. He fell to his knees and toppled over several times finally collapsing at Davie Street and Oak Bay Avenue in front of a number of businesses. It was at this point that several witnesses report seeing what appeared to be excessive physical violence done to Anthany by police officer(s): “When I saw him being punched it made me feel sick.” It is alleged an officer said, “When I tell you to roll over, you fuckin roll over.” Witnesses also say police appeared to be joking and laughing as they stood behind the ambulance once Anthany had been put inside. It is at this point where Anthany’s medical distress became secondary to the possible view it was just another drunken Indian being beaten up by police. It is at this point we have to ask ourselves whether the actions taken by the professional medical and law enforcement officials were at their best? We need to question whether Anthany received adequate medical attention. Did his ‘racial’ identity and gender play a part in decision making? Would it have been different if this had been a white middle class woman? These are the types of questions that have arisen through the persistence of Anthany’s family to find out the reasons why Anthany had to endure this brutal death. He remained in a coma after being placed on life support August 11th. Forty-eight hours after his first interactions with the medical team and police, Anthany James Dawson’s life support was turned off at 4:21pm, August 13th, 1999. This should never have happened to him, it should never happen to any family. The coroner’s jury found that he died of anoxic encephalopathy with tonsillar herniation due to restraint-associated cardiac arrest, agitated delirium and hyperthermia die to episodic metabolic crisis and positional asphyxia. In English, he was choked to death during a seizure. Contrary to media reports, Anthany was not drunk or stoned. He did not die of an overdose or a simple heart attack. A toxicology report found very minute amounts of marijuana in his system that was five days old. Nancy Dawson has continued to push for justice for everyone experiencing discrimination of all kinds. She is seeking a public inquest into Anthany’s death. Her family is still in need of support to find out what happened so they can begin their healing journey and eventually to have closure. Would we as parents have done anything different if this had happened to our child? If you have experienced any kind of discrimination don’t be afraid to exercise your human rights and seek help from your local MLA, anti-racism centre, the human rights coalition or your family church. October 10th Letter from Nancy Dawson to: H. Benjamin Casson Q.C (AB), Acting Police Complaint Commissioner For more information: See Turtle Island articles Capital Region Race Relations 250-380-7311 Vancouver Island Human Rights Coalition 250-382-3012 racialism (ray-shal-izm) n. 1. belief in the superiority of a particular ‘race’. 2. antagonism towards people of other ‘races’. racialist n. racism (ray-sizm) n. 1. = racialism. 2. the theory that human abilities are determined by ‘race’. racist n. http://victoria.indymedia.org/news/2003/12/19718.php http://victoria.indymedia.org/news/2003/08/16177.php http://victoria.indymedia.org/news/2003/08/16092.php http://victoria.indymedia.org/news/2003/05/14436.php http://victoria.indymedia.org/news/2003/09/16739.php http://www.cashsave.com/islandnative/antdawb.htm -- - ___ Stay Strong "Peace sells but who's buying?" Megadeth "This mathematical rhythmatical mechanism enhances my wisdom of Islam, keeps me calm from doing you harm, when I attack, it's Vietnam" --HellRazah "It's not too good to stay in a white man's country too long" Mutabartuka http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html http://awol.objector.org/artistprofiles/welfarepoets.html http://ilovepoetry.com/search.asp?keywords=braithwaite&orderBy=date http://www.dpgrecordz.com/fredwreck/ http://www.lowliferecords.co.uk/ http://loudandoffensive.com/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/THCO2 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 23:33:35 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lewis LaCook Subject: Number Two//new work Comments: To: jen berry , Ron Conn , cyberculture , Kathryn Dean-Dielman , karen stoic lemley , underground poetry , naked readings , Renee , rhizome , webartery , wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii http://www.lewislacook.com/numberTwo/ FlashMX and PHP Number Two is a text application that will not allow you to use letters that form certain key words. The key words are different each time you play. The writing resulting from this operation is stored and readable at the server. This is as useful as a doll.--Gertrude Stein Poem of the Day:http://www.lewislacook.com/POD/index.php associate editor, _sidereality http://www.sidereality.com/ -------- http://www.lewislacook.com/ tubulence artist studio: http://turbulence.org/studios/lacook/index.html --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 07:19:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Al Filreis Subject: Hejinian March 23 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ********************************** If you cannot come to Philadelphia for these events, please join us live by webcast. Events starred(**) below will be webcast live. To reserve a space in our webcast audience--and to receive further instructions--please write to whfellow@writing.upenn.edu. ********************************** KELLY WRITERS HOUSE FELLOWS 2004 The people of the Kelly Writers House proudly present our sixth year of Writers House Fellows: Russell Banks, Lyn Hejinian, and James Alan McPherson. All events are held at 3805 Locust Walk, Philadelphia, and are free and open to the public. Spaces are limited; rsvp now to reserve a seat by writing to whfellow@writing.upenn.edu or by calling (215) 573-9749. novelist RUSSELL BANKS ---------------------- Monday, February 16, 2004 6:30 PM reading Tuesday, February 17, 2004 10 AM interview & discussion** poet LYN HEJINIAN ----------------- Monday, March 22, 2004 6:30 PM reading Tuesday, March 23, 2004 10 AM interview & discussion** short story writer & essayist JAMES ALAN McPHERSON --------------------------------------------------- Monday, April 19, 2004 6:30 PM reading Tuesday, April 20, 2004 10 AM interview & discussion** For much more information: http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~whfellow . Writers House Fellows is funded by a generous grant from Paul Kelly. previous Fellows: ---------------------------- Susan Sontag 2003 Walter Bernstein Laurie Anderson John Ashbery 2002 Charles Fuller Michael Cunningham June Jordan 2001 David Sedaris Tony Kushner Grace Paley 2000 Robert Creeley John Edgar Wideman Gay Talese 1999 recordings of live webcasts featuring the Fellows can be found here: http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~wh/webcasts/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 09:52:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: shanna compton Subject: Soft Skull in NYC: TONIGHT at the Whitney Museum & Monday at the Poetry Project! Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Friday, January 9 7:00pm JUNCTURE book release party at The Whitney Museum of American Art in NYC with Shelly Jackson, Heather McGowan, Richard Nash and Carl Hancock Rux! Whitney Museum of American Art 945 Madison Avenue at 75th Street New York, NY 10021 1-800 WHITNEY http://www.whitney.org Admission: Friday is the Whitney's "pay as you wish" day Juncture: 25 Very Good Stories and 12 Excellent Drawings is an anthology of writers who have skipped a generation and embraced literary experimentation= : absurdism, stream-of-consciousness, science fiction, prose based in rhythm with the influence of poetry. This collection reflects not only the jagged beats of contemporary American writing but also of American life itself, with all its hyphenations, its immigrants, and its migrants. The inclusion of original art and drawings inspired by the stories reflects the kinds of cultural hybridization that has driven many of these artists i= n the first place. More ironic, more rebellious, and much sexier than the quiet epiphanies we=B9ve come to expect, the stories in Juncture are by the Barthelmes, Pynchons, Ellisons, Coovers, Gaddises, and Ackers of today. __________________ Monday, January 12 8:00pm Douglas A. Martin reads at the Poetry Project! Douglas A. Martin & Eve Kosofsky Sedgwick St. Mark's Church 131 E. 10th St. New York, NY 10003 (212) 674-0910 http://www.poetryproject.com/calendar.html All events are $8, $7 for students and seniors, $5 for members. Douglas Martin has published two collections of poetry and a novel, Outline of My Lover (Soft Skull), which was named an International Book of the Year by the Times Literary Supplement and adapted in part by the Ballet Frankfur= t for its production, =B3Kammer/Kammer.=B2 He is a co-author of The Haiku Year, t= o be republished by Soft Skull Press this winter. Since his novel, he has bee= n writing on Hart Crane, Balthus, Francis Bacon, and Branwell Bronte. He teaches in the continuing education program of the New School for Social Research.=20 Eve Sedgwick's poetry has appeared in journals including Salamagundi, Massachusetts Review, Diacritics and Raritan. Her first book of poetry, Fat Art, Thin Art, was published by Duke University Press in 1994. She has taught creative writing, Victorian literature, and queer studies for over 2= 5 years. Her other work includes Between Men: English Literature and Male Homosocial Desire, Epistemology of the Closet, and A Dialogue on Love, a book-length haibun published by Beacon Press in 1998. __________________ For our full schedule of events in NYC and nationwide, see http://www.softskull.com (click EVENTS tab at left). ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 11:34:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Re: lotr n racism Comments: To: olsonjk@delhi.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain This truly boggles the mind -- I suppose there's an elastic clause in the supposition that someone who tries to discuss racism without the cover story of virtuousness might get off the hook -- BUT -- this seems a peculiarly illogical charge by which to stop all discussion cold and, presumably, leave the field to those who don't care much about virtue -- surely we can discuss what most historians would argue is a central problem in American history and culture without exposing ourselves to charges that we are the ones being vicious -- I'll side with all those "vicious"antiracists, thankyou -- On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 13:49:11, Kirby Olson wrote: > It's certainly virtuous to discuss racism. But the funny thing about > virtue is that it always hides vice. So when people try to use the cover > story of virtuousness when discussing racism, it covers the fact that > what they really want to be is vicious. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Breaking in bright Orthography . . ." --Emily Dickinson Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 08:36:48 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: FW: New on the SPT website Comments: To: WOM-PO@LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed From: "Small Press Traffic" >Subject: New on the SPT website >Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 15:31:48 -0800 > >There's lots new to read in our online incarnation: > >*our winter/spring 2004 schedule > >*announcement of our 2002 books of the year & 2003 lifetime achievement >winner > >*articles: >Rusty Morrison, "Seeing what's happening is a form of change:" on the >Enough anthology >Grace Lovelace, if God were interested in close textual analysis: a review >of "Sylvia" >Kevin Killian & Susan Gevirtz, "The Problem of Beauty:" an interview with >Barbara Guest, recipient of SPT's 2003 Lifetime Achievement Award > >*reviews: >Reid Gomez on Renee Gladman's The Activist >Dodie Bellamy on Susan Howe's The Midnight >Kim Rosenfield on Yedda Morrison's Crop >Kristin Palm on Rodrigo Toscano's Platform >Arielle Greenberg on Elizabeth Willis' Turneresque > >enjoy, and many thanks to those of you who recently renewed your >memberships. > >Happy new year to all. > >Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson >Executive Director >Small Press Traffic >Literary Arts Center at CCA >1111 -- 8th Street >San Francisco, CA 94107 >415.551.9278 >http://www.sptraffic.org _________________________________________________________________ Working moms: Find helpful tips here on managing kids, home, work — and yourself. http://special.msn.com/msnbc/workingmom.armx ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 08:41:08 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: FW: SPT's Poets' Theater Jamboree schedule Comments: To: WOM-PO@LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed From: "Small Press Traffic" >Subject: SPT's Poets' Theater Jamboree schedule >Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 15:11:00 -0800 Small Press Traffic presents Poets' Theater Jamboree: Come on out for our annual showcase of poets as playwrights, directors, producers, actors - it's wild, it's lovely, it's SPT's Poets' Theater Jamboree 2004. ***All seats $10 to benefit Small Press Traffic. ***Reservations are recommended & will be taken beginning January 10 at 415-551-9278.*** Friday, January 16, 2004 at 7:30 p.m. Laynie Browne, "Zoanthella and Zoanthina: Tribulations of the Larval Anemone Princesses," directed by Stefani J Barber kari edwards, "AN OPERA: GERTRUDE STEIN IN C*" Danil Kharms, "Anecdotes from the Life of Pushkin," directed by Brent Cunningham Rodney Koeneke, "Road to Inner Houston" Friday, January 23, 2004 at 7:30 p.m. Kate Colby & Todd Shalom, "Feinstein on the Beach" Joseph Lease, "The Nervous System," directed by Taylor Brady Tan Lin, "A Life Lived on Film," directed by Brent Cunningham Dana Teen Lomax & Danna Lomax, "Pas de Dough" Frank O'Hara, "Two Eclogues," directed by Mac McGinnes Camille Roy, "Lucy in the Sky" Friday, January 30, 2004 at 7:30 p.m. Drew Cushing, "Hamlet Variations" Bill Luoma, "Radio Grasshopper" Dawn Lundy Martin, "Killing Jemima Twice" K. Silem Mohammad, "Who Is React?" Erin Wilson & Jean Lieske, "Pink Stories" Ronaldo V. Wilson, "Erase: A Play in Two Parts" Friday, February 6, 2004 at 7:30 p.m. Trevor Calvert & James Meetze, "The New Brutalists: A Hero's Welcome" Maxine Chernoff, "Heavenly Bodies," directed by Mac McGinnes Yedda Morrison, "Girl Scout Nation: A Diorama" Deborah Richards, "Android Woman" Michael Scharf, "Parti(Antigone)" Tyrone Williams, "Brer R (g)," directed by Taylor Brady > >Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson >Executive Director >Small Press Traffic >Literary Arts Center at CCA >1111 -- 8th Street >San Francisco, CA 94107 >415.551.9278 >http://www.sptraffic.org _________________________________________________________________ Expand your wine savvy — and get some great new recipes — at MSN Wine. http://wine.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 11:08:26 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Masha Zavialova Subject: Re: mr olson among the wild finns MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1251" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just wanted to add that in the Russian federation there are several regions, called 'autonomous republics', lying west of the Urals and stretching like a chain from the Far North to southern parts of Russia, with hundreds of thousands of people speaking Finno-Ugric languages, such as Komi, Mordva and Mari, to say nothing of numerous smaller groups scattered over the European part of Russia, like Veps, Ingermanlandian Finns, Izhora, all speaking languages related to Finnish. < "The only language that is much like theirs are tiny Siberian tribes, and Hungarian" -- oops again: Estonian, spoken just across the Gulf of Finland, and Karelian, spoken in the western parts of Russia, are closely related. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 11:23:55 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brent Bechtel Subject: Re: lotr n racism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Depending on the time in history, different groups have been the subject of viciousness; sometimes warranted and sometimes not. Christianity was seen as a Big Evil by Rome in its early days; Irish and Italian immigrants were seen as the cause of societal problems at points in American history; mid-twentieth century America was also mostly against homosexuality (and still in many fundamentalist circles this is the case) and each of these groups (there being many others) have received the brunt of viciousness from others. Maybe it's a tendency in all humans to be vicious (some less and some more) - I don't think it's something that needs to be emptied out of humans, it's part of being human - directing viciousness towards legitimate targets, such as racists and others of that category (those who are vicious and oppressive themselves) is a good outlet for this. Maybe racism itself is even a sort of misdirected energy, that could be put to better use fighting real problems, rather than perceived ones clustered around xenophobia, etc. If someone accuses you of being vicious against racists, this is really something of a compliment, I'd think - -Brent ----- Original Message ----- From: "ALDON L NIELSEN" To: Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 10:34 AM Subject: Re: lotr n racism > This truly boggles the mind -- I suppose there's an elastic clause in the > supposition that someone who tries to discuss racism without the cover story of > virtuousness might get off the hook -- > > BUT -- this seems a peculiarly illogical charge by which to stop all discussion > cold and, presumably, leave the field to those who don't care much about virtue > -- surely we can discuss what most historians would argue is a central problem > in American history and culture without exposing ourselves to charges that we > are the ones being vicious -- I'll side with all those "vicious"antiracists, > thankyou -- > > On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 13:49:11, Kirby Olson wrote: > > > It's certainly virtuous to discuss racism. But the funny thing about > > virtue is that it always hides vice. So when people try to use the cover > > story of virtuousness when discussing racism, it covers the fact that > > what they really want to be is vicious. > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > "Breaking in bright Orthography . . ." > --Emily Dickinson > > > Aldon L. Nielsen > Kelly Professor of American Literature > The Pennsylvania State University > 116 Burrowes > University Park, PA 16802-6200 > > (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 13:04:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Tills Subject: Viciousness MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think this is a really, really interesting topic -- Viciousness. Last evening, I obsessed about the need to create more kindness, care, = patience, tolerance, and generosity in the world, especially KINDNESS, = though. Or at least that's the quality that interests me. Seems to me = that everybody, including poets and artists, reveres talent, = intelligence, genius, but we neglect to value kindness adequately. I'd = like to talk more about this at another time. =20 For now I want (also) to say a thing (or two) about Viciousness. I = agree with Brent. I believe that both viciousness and hatred are = "okay," if not desirable. I am, myself, extremely vicious towards the = neocons. I don't know if there is any rational or real way to = rationalize my visciousness towards them. I work "underground" to = slander them and undermine them. (This is, or may be, obviously, an = incredible contradiction to my affirmation of KINDNESS, above, although = perhaps all of this is selective, and "giving kindness" towards one = subset of global friends may necessitate putting one's own life, and = artistic aspirations for reputation, at risk in the exercise of = "viciousness" towards other subsets of global co-inhabitants.) I suppose that if my life were adequately hunky-dory and I were very = little effected by the kinds of suffering engendered by the last three = years of crazy political events, I would not "care so much," and I know = darn well that certain extremes of "caring" are often merely = manifestations of personality problems. Yes, often the only really sane = resolution to certain suffering is to "take care of oneself," "get one's = own, deeper psychosocial issues taken care of." No, that isn't the same = as being well-provided for by acquiescence to the power inequalities = that cause others to suffer and insulate "the average bourgeois" from = concern for others.=20 Anyway, these are both related and not necessarily related, issues, = "kindness" and "viciousness." I don't have a lot of answers, but I = think they are topics worth writing about. I'm glad Brent broached the subject(s). =20 =20 =20 <> Steve Tills Microcomputer/Software Specialist MIS Dept.- G.W. Lisk Company, Inc. 315-462-4309 Stills@gwlisk.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 13:09:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: schwartzgk Subject: Yeats May Have Been Autistic, Psychiatrist Says MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does this add (or subtract) anything to (or from) the discussion of poetry as symptom? With Maud Gonne In Destroying The Letters, Gerald Schwartz Reuters.com - Yeats May Have Been Autistic, Psychiatrist Says http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=healthNews&storyID=4100247&fro ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 12:27:17 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: A Bush "Ring" gem Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit http://flash.bushrecall.org/ Very well done animation. Suggest checking it out. Stephen V ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 16:12:46 -0500 Reply-To: olsonjk@delhi.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kirby Olson Organization: SUNY Delhi Subject: Re: LOTR & Mr. Olson's Finland! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Being vicious toward racists is not ok. I think it is something else, though, in play. First, in any given academic group no one wants to be seen as racist. And so the tendency is to project this on to another -- a teacher who may be a little more conservative than the rest, etc. And this is to create a bond within an inner group that wants to be seen as virtuous. No one ever talks about their own racism. But it is very easy to lay all problems at the foot of another person so that we can feel virtuous. This trick is called scapegoating. It's an insidious trick inside all left-wing circles that I've known. I would welcome a critic who was willing to read a text from the viewpoint of outing their own racism. It is only too easy to out someone else's, though, and I think it is vicious to ever imply that we are perfect and somebody else should have their head kicked in, or their work should be burned, or their name should be forgotten, or permanently marred. There is a bigger picture in each person, and we ought to try to grasp that. I think one way to combat it is to be compassionate toward all parties and remember the saying, "Let the one who is without sin cast the first stone." But that would take all the fun out of it. To be vicious is always wrong. We were not meant to be perfect, and in pretending to be, we become vicious, and we lend credibility to that viciousness through our mistakenly believing that in certain instances (oh, if we could only find them!) it is virtuous to be vicious. But it is never virtuous to be vicious. Never ever. Even in war we are not permitted to be vicious. We can defend a neighbor, but we can't go so far as to allow ourselves to become maniacs unable to distinguish right from wrong, or simply to tell any falsehood in order to gain something, or to wipe out an entire society. We can do our best to right a completely sick society -- such as Hitler's -- but then we are beholden to that same country to help them on their feet once more. That's it. If we allow ourselves to become vicious in the process of righting others, then we have committed an equal crime, or perhaps even a greater crime. As for the Finnish stuff -- I read this stuff about the Mongolian connection in the back of the Tampere University journal. I don't see why it would be more racist to be connected to Mongolia than to Germany. That in itself seems racist -- implying that it's ok to be a German, but not a Mongolian. I wasn't knowingly telling any falsehoods about my existence in Finland, as Anselm Hollo implies that I was. I am almost never attacked here in America, but in Finland was quite often threatened. As for language. Of course, Anselm is Finnish, with deep roots there, and probably does have more knowledge of Finnish linguistic roots since he grew up there, and translates from the language. How could he not know more? I welcome the correction, but not the implication that I was knowingly telling a lie. And I wasn't saying that Finland was worse than any other place. I was saying that in spite of it being about as perfect as a human society could get, it nevertheless has problems which are apparent to anyone who doesn't look Finnish. It does, however, have one of the highest standards of living in the world, and it bears more attention as a model for our society in terms of its ability to create a rather even economic structure in which there is a greater concern for the disadvantaged --. Anselm, if you are still there -- could you tell the story of the Finnish revolution, and answer the question as to whether or not it was ever a "fascist" society, as someone on this list has claimed it was (ever since the First World War, I think he was implying, and certainly during the years with the pact against Stalin). I didn't know whether that designation could really be used for Finland. I wanted to argue not, but I have little credibility here. Yours is no doubt sterling. I would like your take, and I'm sure many others would, too. -- Kirby Olson ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 13:13:47 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lewis LaCook Subject: difference and distance Comments: cc: jen berry , Ron Conn , cyberculture , Kathryn Dean-Dielman , karen stoic lemley , underground poetry , naked readings , Renee , rhizome , webartery , wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In succulent clouds raw with symbols I am a Palestinian celebrating the destruction of my oppressors, eating your children with bombs in my teeth until all of us are dust. I get sick of gray skies, eventually. A small bottle of white-out will finish my hands, slip the firmament until it, like me, is invisible: on the recieving end, blotting any horizon with my skin, I become less than, and bauble. They wear me. When there is sun,I can hear them buying and selling under the street. Cars lie wrenched along the treelawn, doubled over in parch. This was an alien rain, slices of sky inserted everywhere, lacing my solitude until each link seems an indictment of pointilism. I'm a Palestinian, knives in my teeth as I try to breath under their map. I'm trying to figure difference and distance. ===== This is as useful as a doll.--Gertrude Stein Poem of the Day:http://www.lewislacook.com/POD/index.php associate editor, _sidereality http://www.sidereality.com/ -------- http://www.lewislacook.com/ tubulence artist studio: http://turbulence.org/studios/lacook/index.html __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 16:38:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Tills Subject: Re: LOTR & Mr. Olson's Finland! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kirby writes: "If we allow ourselves to become vicious in the process of righting = others, then we have committed an equal crime, or perhaps even a greater = crime."=20 Kirby, you're probably right, although this has been a "logical" = prescription for heaven knows how long. In addition, what's the context = of the so-called "viciousness?" Public writing, poetry, political propaganda, newspaper or television = journalism? Or guerilla "warfare," internet "propaganda?" "To be vicious is always wrong." You're probably right, but this is an = absolute. How can it be "always" the case? "Even in war we are not permitted to be vicious." Yeah, maybe so, but = what if a nicely timed act of "viciousness" somehow stopped a series of = steps that otherwise lead to violence and war? I know my ramblings are goofy here, but I wonder what Hamlet would have = thought of "viciousness."=20 P.S. Kirby, by the way, I owe you an email backchannel about a post that = I missed while on vacation this summer. Will send ya a note soon. :) Steve Steve Tills Microcomputer/Software Specialist MIS Dept.- G.W. Lisk Company, Inc. 315-462-4309 Stills@gwlisk.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:41:36 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brent Bechtel Subject: Re: LOTR & Mr. Olson's Finland! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ah. I was thinking of viciousness more as a sense of exceedingly strong or fierce opposition - this differs from the correct definition of "vicious" which does carry a meaning different from what I had in mind. What can I ascribe this too - maybe a less-literal idea of viciousness. So this is true - I certainly don't support the use of injurious means against anyone. I do think that it's good to voice strong opposition against human rights crimes, racism, and so on - not because it makes me feel virtuous per se, but because it _is_ right to oppose what is fundamentally wrong. Opposition should be undertaken in a sober manner, recognizant of, as you say, the bigger picture. Compassion should reign over reproof - this is really more what I had in mind with viciousness - mind that the word "violence" can also be rendered not to mean a physical act of destruction, but also as fervency. So I suppose that one can discuss racism while being vicious (vice-ious) and not virtuous - it though it can be otherwise. I suppose this goes back to my post suggesting that the search for racism is often taken too far. Ah, ah, did I flip flop? I'm not sure. Maybe I just went entirely off-topic. I still think it's right to put full effort for fighting for a just cause, and opposing unjust causes. I think I'll go scurry to the kitchen and make coffee. Steve - glad you liked my post - liked yours, too. Maybe I'll backchannel a reply once I do this, since I'm up to my limit now, aha. -Brent Bechtel http://bechtel.blogspot.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirby Olson" To: Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 3:12 PM Subject: Re: LOTR & Mr. Olson's Finland! > Being vicious toward racists is not ok. I think it is something else, though, > in play. First, in any given academic group no one wants to be seen as racist. > And so the tendency is to project this on to another -- a teacher who may be a > little more conservative than the rest, etc. And this is to create a bond > within an inner group that wants to be seen as virtuous. No one ever talks > about their own racism. But it is very easy to lay all problems at the foot of > another person so that we can feel virtuous. This trick is called > scapegoating. It's an insidious trick inside all left-wing circles that I've > known. I would welcome a critic who was willing to read a text from the > viewpoint of outing their own racism. It is only too easy to out someone > else's, though, and I think it is vicious to ever imply that we are perfect and > somebody else should have their head kicked in, or their work should be burned, > or their name should be forgotten, or permanently marred. There is a bigger > picture in each person, and we ought to try to grasp that. > > I think one way to combat it is to be compassionate toward all parties and > remember the saying, "Let the one who is without sin cast the first stone." > > But that would take all the fun out of it. > > To be vicious is always wrong. > > We were not meant to be perfect, and in pretending to be, we become vicious, and > we lend credibility to that viciousness through our mistakenly believing that in > certain instances (oh, if we could only find them!) it is virtuous to be > vicious. > > But it is never virtuous to be vicious. Never ever. > > Even in war we are not permitted to be vicious. We can defend a neighbor, but > we can't go so far as to allow ourselves to become maniacs unable to distinguish > right from wrong, or simply to tell any falsehood in order to gain something, or > to wipe out an entire society. We can do our best to right a completely sick > society -- such as Hitler's -- but then we are beholden to that same country to > help them on their feet once more. That's it. If we allow ourselves to become > vicious in the process of righting others, then we have committed an equal > crime, or perhaps even a greater crime. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:59:07 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: An Astrology Of Nerves Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed herself? her eyes go soft when lit on serpents she cries when her skin turns color in different rooms each tear like a thousand drunks (sunflowers not wine changed their head) but her nails fresh from blood-laden fingerbowls never peeled an orange for me myself? bones, open to the sky like a long battle yet, good news: I rule between these lightning-strikes still rolling hands broke the earth from beneath me and here I am, piggy-backing the fireworks, a tangy flight flavored with remote gold _________________________________________________________________ Get reliable dial-up Internet access now with our limited-time introductory offer. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:59:30 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christine Murray Subject: Ringin' in the New at chris murray's Texfiles MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain http://texfiles.blogspot.com Ringin' in the New: Texfiles Poets of the Week: --Patrick Herron: check out his MP3 poems, 18-27 Dec --Michael Helsem: audblog plus many poems, 27 Dec-4 Jan --Mark Weiss: check out poems from his new manuscript, Australia. 4 Jan+ plus: --Hello to Skanky Poss 9+10, 4 Jan --Dale Smith Weighs-in Over the *Unbelievable Michael Atkinson,* from the current issue of *The Believer* 5 Jan http://www.skankypossum.com/pouch/ --From the (Un)Tex author: "Text speaking for itself: Yasusada: "Alias, I said, I quote you..." and *Doubled Flowering*--8 Jan --Today, check out "Half Sonnet, Will Ski"--a word about Mike Snider's new Sonnetarium project, and check out Mike's blog: http://radio.weblogs.com/0113501 --My New *Many PoeTiKal HaTs LisT,* several inspired from Harry K Stammer's blog, http://harrykstammer.blogspot.com --plus a few chris m poems: Sfumato Unwind, 27 Dec E.D. to Sue, 28 Dec lOvErsTOP HoT Cold Mountain Couplets, 4 Jan Enjoy! Chris Murray ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 16:49:24 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: lotr n racism In-Reply-To: <200401091634.LAA07084@webmail7.cac.psu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" kirby, i wrote "ethical" not "virtuous." i share your gut squeamishness abt showy piety, but surely one might be permitted to care about and discuss stuff beyond form. somehow this charge, of irrelevance and/or hypocrisy, seems to crop up to halt discussions of race on poetix. why? why isn't this as valid a topic for discussion as anything else? > >On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 13:49:11, Kirby Olson wrote: > >> It's certainly virtuous to discuss racism. But the funny thing about >> virtue is that it always hides vice. So when people try to use the cover >> story of virtuousness when discussing racism, it covers the fact that > > what they really want to be is vicious. -- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 17:07:09 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: LOTR & Mr. Olson's Finland! Comments: To: olsonjk@delhi.edu In-Reply-To: <3FFF194D.FFC41932@delhi.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 4:12 PM -0500 1/9/04, Kirby Olson wrote: >... No one ever talks >about their own racism... depends on the company you keep. there are lots of things people talk about but not in public. i bet in confessionals, anti-racism workshops, twelve-step groups, co-counseling sessions, etc, people do talk about this in self-critical or exploratory ways, along with discussions of their homophobia, sexism, classism, and other "character defects". why is discussion of *race* such a lightning rod? you paint in very broad strokes, kirby, not attending to the nuances of academic life and selling a lot of folks very short. > -- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 17:27:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Baldwin Subject: UbuWeb mirror at WVU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline UbuWeb, the web's leading resource for visual, concrete, sound, conceputal, and ethno-poetics, is now mirrored by the Center for Literary Computing at West Virginia University: http://ubu.clc.wvu.edu. (The original UbuWeb is at www.ubu.com.) The ubu mirror is provided free of charge and creates a permanent backup in the case of system failure or bandwidth problems. The Center for Literary Computing welcomes proposals for mirroring or hosting from other artists & institutions. Contact Sandy Baldwin at clc@mail.wvu.edu. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:45:23 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Corbett Subject: Re: lotr n racism In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Kirby, Your dictum strikes me as rather manichaean or even circular. When someone speaks of virtue, they are merely covering vice...in which case why talk about virtue at all? In any case "virtue" in philosophical discussions is code for Alasdair McIntyre and others attempts to narrativize ethics and sometimes bring in religious discourse. This all and good, but there are many of us who believe that religion and ethics are not one and the same thing. Robert -- Robert Corbett, Ph.C. "Given the distance of communication, Coordinator of New Programs I hope the words aren't idling on the B40D Gerberding map of my fingertips, but igniting the Phone: (206) 616-0657 wild acres within the probabilities of Fax: (206) 685-3218 spelling" - Rosmarie Waldrop UW Box: 351237 On Fri, 9 Jan 2004, Maria Damon wrote: > kirby, i wrote "ethical" not "virtuous." i share your gut > squeamishness abt showy piety, but surely one might be permitted to > care about and discuss stuff beyond form. somehow this charge, of > irrelevance and/or hypocrisy, seems to crop up to halt discussions of > race on poetix. why? why isn't this as valid a topic for discussion > as anything else? > > > > >On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 13:49:11, Kirby Olson wrote: > > > >> It's certainly virtuous to discuss racism. But the funny thing about > >> virtue is that it always hides vice. So when people try to use the cover > >> story of virtuousness when discussing racism, it covers the fact that > > > what they really want to be is vicious. > > > > -- > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 19:02:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Re: LOTR & Mr. Olson's Finland! Comments: To: olsonjk@delhi.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain This gets stranger with each exchange -- why "any given academic group"? wouldn't it follow that somebody who isn't a racist wouldn't want to be seen as racist? what's this about "projecting" onto another, in the course of which we seem to see a disturbing slippage between racism and conservatism -- which no "academic" I have ever heard anywhere would ever confuse -- the assertion appears to be that some conservative somewhere, clearly not racist, has been accused of racism simply for being conservative -- George Schuyler was a conservative who wasn't a racist -- John Ashcroft is a conservative who likes to hang out with the Conservatice Citizens Council, which had previously been incorporated as the White Citizens Council -- think we can't tell the difference? Strom Thurmond had no trouble talking about his own racism; he just had trouble talking about the fact of his black offspring -- On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 16:12:46, Kirby Olson wrote: First, in any given academic group no one wants to be seen as racist. > And so the tendency is to project this on to another -- a teacher who may be a > little more conservative than the rest, etc. And this is to create a bond > within an inner group that wants to be seen as virtuous. No one ever talks > about their own racism. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Breaking in bright Orthography . . ." --Emily Dickinson Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 19:19:57 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Brennan Subject: Rose & Cobb--You Gotta BE A Sociopath To Get 4000 Hits! Comments: To: frankfurt-school@lists.village.virginia.edu, corp-focus@lists.essential.org, WRYTING-L@LISTSERV.UTORONTO.CA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ALWAYS INCITEFUL! The Ass. Press: For people who can laugh about being right. Click here: The Assassinated Press When Terror Is An Existentialist's Payday!: The Man Who Wasn't There In Aviation Scare, U.S. Asks France To Seek Suspect Who May Not Exist: Earning From The Masters--Tom Ridge Did Thesis On Orson Welles' 'War Of The Worlds' by Jack Sartre and Andre al-Camus The Assassinated Press Can Pete Rose's Gambling Do For the Baseball Hall Of Fame What Heroin Addiction Has Done For the Rock & Roll Hall Of Fame?: Let He Who is Without Sin Cast The First Spitball Rose & Cobb--You Gotta BE A Sociopath To Get 4000 Hits! by Arnie Palucci The Assassinated Press They hang the man and flog the woman That steal the goose from off the common, But let the greater villain loose That steals the common from the goose. ".....at a time when I am speaking to you about the paradox of desire -- in the sense that different goods obscure it -- you can hear outside the awful language of power. There's no point in asking whether they are sincere or hypocritical, whether they want peace of whether they calculate the risks. The dominating impression as such a moment is that something that may pass for a prescribed good; information addresses and captures impotent crowds to whom it is poured forth like a liquor that leaves them dazed as they move toward the slaughter house. One might even ask if one would allow the cataclysm to occur without first giving free reign to this hubbub of voices...." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 20:31:04 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Craig Allen Conrad Subject: contact for Kyle Schleshinger? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit was visiting poet Gil Ott today in the hospital (where he's been for the better part of a year now), and he has a book coming out from Schleshinger, and asked me to pass a message along to him. if anyone has his e-mail, please e-mail it to me either at CAConrad13@aol.com or CAConrad9@aol.com much appreciated, thanks, CAConrad http://phillysound.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 21:01:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: SPOON-ANN: Announcing JCRT Issue 5.1 (December 2003) (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 11:01:12 -0500 From: Neal Magee To: spoon-announcements@lists.village.virginia.edu Subject: SPOON-ANN: Announcing JCRT Issue 5.1 (December 2003) [Spoon-Announcements is a moderated list for distributing info of wide enough interest without cross-posting. To unsub, send the message "unsubscribe spoon-announcements" to majordomo@lists.village.virginia.edu] The editors and editorial board of the JCRT are pleased to announce the release of the December 2003 issue of The Journal for Cultural and Religious Theory. This marks our fifth year of publication as an free and peer-reviewed academic journal. http://www.jcrt.org/current.html This issue features an article by Tobin Siebers examining representations of violence in contemorary art, which Siebers interprets through the religious rubric of "ritual." John Meeks offers a retrospective on the significance of the life and work of the late Edward Said for the study of religion. Three articles center on the notion of "writing": David Hale on writing and transgression, Lars Iyer on testimony, Judaism and the infinite= , and Darlene M. Juschka on writing and ethnography in the work of Michael Taussig. Avron Kulak contributes a piece on the methodological affinities between Kierkegaard and Derrida, and C. Jason Lee proposes a new understanding of historicizing by way of the work of Andy Warhol. Also included in this issue are four reviews of recent books by J=FCrgen Habermas, Gabriel Vahanian, Graham Ward, and Gerald Bruns. The issue is introduced by Senior Editor Carl Raschke, who argues for a proper valuation of the work of Georges Bataille not only within the Western philosophical tradition, but as progenitor of what has come to be called the "post-modern," a movement Raschke understands as operating according to an inherently religious logic. ::: The JCRT invites submissions which should be sent to Clayton Crockett, Editor at and proposals for book reviews addressed to Jeff Robbins, Review Editor at . ::: Journal for Cultural and Religious Theory - Vol. 5 No. 1 (December 2003) INTRODUCTION ------------ Bataille's Gift. By Carl Raschke, University of Denver. http://www.jcrt.org/archives/05.1/raschke.pdf ARTICLES -------- The Return to Ritual: Violence and Art in the Media Age. By Tobin Siebers, University of Michigan. http://www.jcrt.org/archives/05.1/siebers.pdf ** Due to images in this article, this file is approximately 1.7MB, which will require 15-30 minutes for dialup readers. Writing: The Transgression of Religion. By David Hale, Yampa College. http://www.jcrt.org/archives/05.1/hale.pdf ^=D1Write, Write^=D2: Testimony, Judaism and the Infinite in Blanchot, Kofman and Levinas. By Lars Iyer, University of Newcastle upon Tyne. http://www.jcrt.org/archives/05.1/iyer.pdf The Writing of Ethnography: Magical Realism and Michael Taussig. By Darlene M. Juschka, University of Regina. http://www.jcrt.org/archives/05.1/juschka.pdf Kierkegaard, Derrida, and the Context of Context(s). By Avron Kulak, York University, Toronto. http://www.jcrt.org/archives/05.1/kulak.pdf Seeing is Believing: Warhol's Spiritualizing of Materiality and the Need for the Historicizing of Postmodernism. By C. Jason Lee, St. Martin's College, Lancaster UK. http://www.jcrt.org/archives/05.1/lee.pdf RETROSPECTIVE ------------- In the Wake of Edward Said. By John Meeks, Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago. http://www.jcrt.org/archives/05.1/meeks.pdf REVIEWS ------- Review of J=FCrgen Habermas, _Religion and Rationality: Essays on Reason, God, and Modernity, (2002) by Eric Bain-Selbo, Lebanon Valley College. http://www.jcrt.org/archives/05.1/bain-selbo.pdf Review of Gabriel Vahanian, _Anonymous God_ (2001) by Darrell J. Fasching, University of South Florida, Tampa. http://www.jcrt.org/archives/05.1/fasching.pdf Review of Graham Ward, _Cities of God_ (2000) by B. Keith Putt, Samford University. http://www.jcrt.org/archives/05.1/putt.pdf Review of Gerald Bruns, _Tragic Thoughts at the End of Philosophy: Language, Literature and Ethical Theory_ (1999) by Daniel L. Tate, St. Bonaventure University. http://www.jcrt.org/archives/05.1/tate.pdf ---------- To SUBSCRIBE to the JCRT mailing list: http://www.jcrt.org/majordomo.shtml or send an email with no body, To: theory-request@jcrt.org Subject: subscribe ---------- =A92004 Journal for Cultural and Religious Theory. E-ISSN: 1530-5228 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 21:56:03 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: HAPPY. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII HAPPY. HAPPY. And so if he becomes desirous of the world of mothers, by his mere thought, mothers arise. Possessed of that world of mothers he is HAPPY." One walks a road in a city thinking of what makes one HAPPY. One was HAPPY they were HAPPY, deeply HAPPY there. Clarion trumpets blare out the truth of a new day!", "%n is HAPPY that %d is up to %d in %l HAPPY with %p ability to place legs in order!", "%n wants to You've got to have a hearty meal to start a HAPPY day! For breakfast, I to them for many HAPPY hours, when all I have left are "fond" memories. I I want to kill myself because I'm so HAPPY! i search out death, i happen upon its comfort. HAPPY, this leaves room The two of us entwined, and HAPPY? Yay!, my lord, offer. A man offering sacrifice to his god is HAPPY, loan upon the sickness unto death, cauterized self against an HAPPY horizon the HAPPY party will occur in another city very much alone. cancer subsides and angels HAPPY Tue Oct 5 22:22:54 EDT 1999 arraignments remain always and forever. you will be so HAPPY, and your friends will be so HAPPY. you will be so very HAPPY, and your friends will be so very HAPPY, and the sun will rise ever so slightly, and there will be a cool having relinquished, don't follow me, you'll be amazing, HAPPY Now I'm sitting at a table among others, HAPPY as can be. I write these Mayakovsky was so HAPPY because he found his true love. He wrote: Very HAPPY at times, but not disastrous. is lots of HAPPY chatter. The inside of my brain is screaming for no If I were virtual I could live forever and be HAPPY, because I always want and heart all the time. Then I'd be HAPPY! Richard Klein on smoking, I don't smoke. And feeling incredibly HAPPY slightly HAPPY about that. And received to absolutely beautiful books from made an _image that works_ vis-a-vis the Mac, quite HAPPY with that, will connect to a HAPPY isp and real audio or another duke nukem out of date think I would be perfectly HAPPY dying while fucking. I would go to heaven and various other programs - quite HAPPY with those. Beyond all of this, and HAPPY slightly agitated water inside, I think what it must be like to and HAPPY in their early morning warmth. HAPPY, i am nikuko, i am a ballet dancer. i wear a lovely tutu and i love light enough so I can print prints. I am HAPPY. I think I better crawl out None made me HAPPY with loaf or horn, HAPPY once upon a time. Surely there was a once upon a time. The cup I am huge bandwidths. This travels among thousands of HAPPY components, each my melancholy; I had had no true yardstick for measuring how HAPPY a human standing around a bar, drinking like crazy. They're HAPPY fellows. In chapter 4 she says I was very special, truly! I am so HAPPY to have It's nice for you to smile at me the way you do. I'm HAPPY that I can have kept the rich alive, right, and HAPPY. feet. She was HAPPY with her waist. When she played "Phaedra" it was not A file leaving nothing but its process id number as a memory of HAPPY sun and smiled. She looked HAPPY at the HAPPY sky. She was filled with very HAPPY wonder. Jennifer smiled and smiled. She was filled with HAPPY wonder. Later, minutes, hours, hopping days and weeks, she was filled with very HAPPY Jennifer was very HAPPY and sat down, spreading her new pink frock. the HAPPY holidays, gifts for all, including fish, of motherboards and RAM so are you HAPPY ever heard such HAPPY giggling in Brooklyn loft before. No one has, bring- so HAPPY. They say that Alan and Jennifer are just the very way for happi- I am so HAPPY to have found love and death and Elinor Wylie! gloves have fit her, dark with grace and veil! I am so HAPPY to have found * NJIT has been HAPPY to provide anonymous WWW access since 1992. This greement behind the transnational HAPPY face? Stay tuned... >H3<>BSTARE AT ME Then I will be so free and HAPPY and can do a wonderful thing. would want me to be perfectly HAPPY all the time and i would have many other because they would be so very HAPPY just being near me. and you know HAPPY. Panthers stood silent at gold and silver doors. And when I am thirsted, I am HAPPY and fulfilled, Julu. I am so HAPPY here within tissue erect on Bodei-Man i'm HAPPY and haven't lost anything yet. anyone HAPPY who could live there in the middle of the lights. if these things had prior commitments. And that such makes us HAPPY and Someday I will meet her! I will be HAPPY forever! together and very HAPPY. Azure is also an emanant online, a disturbance "I am fain to call your eyes and ears HAPPY, HAPPY too your nose, for you These words are written in a dangerous space, HAPPY, hinged, ready to An accordion, a gypsy, a horse-and-cart, a trolley, a very HAPPY day. the HAPPY party will occur in another city very much alone. out they said and it was much fun listening to the hum:: Devour byte HAPPY news1: HAPPY staff people helping me all through this, mommy mommy my HAPPY staff people helping me all through this, mommy mommy and send it to you mommy mommy? ... me is HAPPY staff people helping me rome as death watches me; i've been miserably HAPPY all my life as a re- Old Clar agrees with everyone. Old Clar tries to make everyone HAPPY. Please be HAPPY, she says, be HAPPY for me. She says, I can talk to you beautiful blue eyes full of tears. New Clar is HAPPY she's alive; Old Clar cancer subsides and angels HAPPY Tue Oct 5 22:22:54 EDT 1999 arraignments KIM IL SUNG: Hello, I am a member of the audience and I am very HAPPY to HAPPY country, our sun will shine with its luminous rays as bright and as we'll be HAPPY. (nikuko) we'll be HAPPY, i'll take my tutu off for you, my slippers off (dance ends) and we are very HAPPY, more than almost any people in the whole world, almost as HAPPY as the ambassador. HAPPY for the first time in his life watching the famous connect to a HAPPY isp and real audio or another duke nukem out of date parents when your guard is down, when you are returning from a HAPPY HAPPY and your friends will turn against you and you will use an illegal remain always and forever. you will be so HAPPY, and your friends will be so HAPPY. you will be so very HAPPY, and your friends will be so very HAPPY, and the sun will rise ever so slightly, and there will be a cool HAPPY empty big out boy plus wet rough above yin together top daytime on having relinquished, don't follow me, you'll be amazing, HAPPY He was doing what, a good deed, he was HAPPY. Smiling, he looked up with The new musical, brought to you by those to HAPPY-go-lucky Tin-Pan-Alley woman f naked sexy woman g naked sexy woman h HAPPY sexy woman i HAPPY dirty woman j HAPPY sexy woman, jennifer just doesn't want to move! k naked man p dirty naked man q HAPPY little man r HAPPY sexy man s HAPPY naked man t HAPPY sexy man u dirty sexy man v HAPPY sexy man w HAPPY naked man x HAPPY naked man y dirty sexy man z HAPPY naked man, alan just wants delicate mirrors in the skies reflecting all your HAPPY dream! and so very much delicate mirrors in the skies reflecting all your HAPPY HAPPY too to see it again, such very dreaming so HAPPY and sad and so remember and forget, such very dreaming so HAPPY and sad and so remember slowly show myself to you? That's nothing! I would be more than HAPPY to terebinth and tamarisk, and I did this all to be HAPPY and to sit back or nourishment back-channel which keeps me going, and I'm HAPPY that those possibility for new ties of all sorts. I've seen people incredibly HAPPY HAPPY, i am nikuko, i am a ballet dancer. i wear a lovely tutu and i love is An. with a period? I arrange these: Imperial /great,HAPPY/ cottage seal small and very HAPPY:little smiles and tiny very HAPPY:so little-tiny- be your every.:i will be so very HAPPY to be anything you want but i will speak so lovingly, i will be your every.:little smiles and tiny very HAPPY they were quite HAPPY with that We develop the screen technology so it's we're all HAPPY campers we're HAPPY to loan you our girls and boys a just to want I be I want be at I to don't to all. bad want I to HAPPY bad at all. You want to be good and kind and HAPPY. You want to be HAPPY this is the furiously HAPPY sentence. am the HAPPY otter, always playing and having fun. i am the furious the "sad manatee." i am not the "HAPPY otter, always playing and having when i am HAPPY writing to you, my theory goes as follows: that language are there cell phone HAPPY moments when online and environment mix? FLASH : gratitude from HAPPY anthrax nation :: buildings house explosives caves expel evil spores :: gratitude of HAPPY anthrax nation :: FLASH : so many HAPPY powders. stdin. smallpox-rape of azure and alan.:i'm real i am HAPPY. everyone and everyone is so very warmly warm and HAPPY and peaceful and no asleep so very warmly warm and HAPPY and your stuffed animals are HAPPY As unbelievable as it may sound, we are HAPPY to say that our success complicit, the this is the parasitic protocol, the HAPPY eating viral- these They things. this: topple two HAPPY untrue: used violent, violet repetitions: our two wounded have left terrorism's scene. O HAPPY day, HAPPY smile to fall across each other hole. We have steam-hole, geyser- diver standing spread legs. You have HAPPY smile. You want to fall across standing spread legs. You are very HAPPY. Sometimes No. 1 or No. 3 diver somethi ng beyond simply mean in a poetic way; how could I be but HAPPY HAPPY about this? It is as if a terrible burden has been lifted from me. waterfalls streams. america care everyone poor become HAPPY well-fed care of everyone and the poor would become HAPPY and well-fed and wealth Thank you very much. Maryam and Chief Magna, I am very HAPPY. Thank you very much. We are very HAPPY too. emotion. A 'HAPPY' dog is almost always recognized as such. The dog is nikuko is HAPPY morning burden you occasional HAPPY HAPPY examplethis examplethis turns turns ae es, HAPPY/ compliant. now to another matter. i will devote myself to wry- without being impeded material welfarewell-being excellentHAPPYwell-being there was a very HAPPY man.This man was the Sky Lord and his wife was the by HAPPY beings, who wake amid the unutterable natives here are very HAPPY. surrounded by ghosts [giving them], a ghostly natives here are very HAPPY. surrounded by ghosts [giving them], a ghostly fiction appeared, beyond the HAPPY figure that I care to draw for together and for a minute he was HAPPY and thought he would tell George venous._ I am HAPPY to be fed this way; on morrow's Wednesday, I shall fact, I can not say that I have had a HAPPY life; at best, there have recognition will bring forth a HAPPY smile. Sometimes one will locate there will be many HAPPY memories. In the midst of the passing of in- travelling close to the speed of light, there will be many HAPPY mem- I love the lab tests because they make me HAPPY because they are -- for a second, now that he's forgotten, the HAPPY reader of this I used to receive many phonecalls and very many HAPPY knocks at the sad or HAPPY with proper programming. Once seen, it is easily pro- HAPPY or remain healthy in fact you would return. You would return and skills set. I know you 5 can be very HAPPY together. I will help make you very HAPPY but you must let me make you very HAPPY. On my own and by myself I cannot make you very HAPPY well can I. Of course not. Do you so splendid riding there and i am so HAPPY. that will give you a real-world picture from HAPPY To try to answer i am so HAPPY out delete of key the on bios... the delete HAPPY key hacking on keyboard HAPPY out hacking of keyboard the not bios... recognized... switched HAPPY and that things were momentarily the way I always thought they should be, at least every once in a while and for once I'll dream HAPPY Very HAPPY to go with you have a matter of opinion - yes or no, good or bad, HAPPY or sad. But _how such, your desperate confession, HAPPY anecdote, considered theoretical KIM IL SUNG: Hello, I am a member of the audience and I am very HAPPY to HAPPY country, our sun will shine with its luminous rays as bright and as Before, when I cursed God, I was HAPPY! My body was hoarse with taut lungs, -Are you afraid of being HAPPY ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 19:13:05 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: JT Chan Subject: Reconstruction of a Lost Poem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Reconstruction of a Lost Poem (dream version) There was something about countervailing, travels of the eye. The split skull, star seesaw. Children planted on the ground like artificial weeds. A forgetting of scales. A sense of balancing left with whatever we're left with. And Fishes held to a gun, old traditions of waking. - Jill Chan __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 19:15:02 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: JT Chan Subject: Shapes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Shapes There’s something strangely unrelenting about the concept of birth, the kind you struggle against after the first, after knowing better In squares, the last: the whitewashed frame now only a part of the window in all the houses Love carries you nowhere yet smells like loaded summer, the given air you breathe as your own - Jill Chan __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 00:15:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: THREE CAPRICORNS CELEBRATE THEIR BIRTHDAYS WITH READINGS! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE *************************************************************************** THREE CAPRICORNS CELEBRATE THEIR BIRTHDAYS WITH READINGS PLEASE COME AND BE A PART OF OUR PARTY! THURSDAY, January 15, 2004 7 pm-9 pm Casper Jones Cafe 440 Bergen Street Brooklyn, NY 11238 (Q train to 7th Ave station and 2 train to Bergen Street station - both close to the venue - you can also take the 2, 3, 4, 5, N, R, W to Pacific Street or Atlantic Avenue - only a couple of blocks away) CASPER JONES CAFE HAS AN EXCELLENT SELECTION OF FOOD AND DRINK AND OUR HOUSE BAND WILL PERFORM TOO (Leonie Wilson / Alan Sondheim) Kim Lyons's book Saline is forthcoming from Instance Press. Eagerly we await its manifestation! She is the author of Abracadabra (Granary Books), Mettle (Granary Books) and several evocative chapbooks. She is triple Capricorn. Nada Gordon's latest book of poetry is V. Imp. (Faux Press). Other titles include Are Not Our Lowing Heifers Sleeker than Night-Swollen Mushrooms? (Spuyten Duyvil) and Foriegnn Bodie (Detour), as well as an e-pistolary multiform novel, Swoon written together with Gary Sullivan. She is a Capricorn-Dragon. Brenda Iijima's book Around Sea is just out from O Books! An essay in chapbook form titled COLOR AND ITS ANTECENDENTS is forthcoming from Yen Agat Books. A compact disc of Friedrich H=F6lderlin=92s poems read in Germa= n by Erika Uchman and in English (using Richard Sieburth=92s translations) by Iijima will be released shortly by Portable Press at Yo-Yo Labs. She is a Capricorn-Goat. _________________________________________________________________ Tired of slow downloads? Compare online deals from your local high-speed providers now. https://broadband.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 23:25:18 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Looking for SPAM Poems Comments: To: WRYTING-L Disciplines Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Poetry at About.com (Bob Holman & Margery Snyder's turf) is looking for spam poems. Surely someone here can spare a few. http://forums.about.com/ab-poetry/messages?lgnF=y&msg=25050.1 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 01:00:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: foo.ipk.gz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII foo.ipk.gz in order to use an infrared keyboard with the zaurus linux pda, i had to download an ipk driver file. i tried to install with ipkg and kept getting error messages. call the file foo.ipk. so i gzipped foo.ipk producing foo.ipk.gz. i then changed the name to foo.ipk. then i installed with ipkg without the error. ipkg was foo-led with the hidden .gz. ipkg didn't realize that the file in the first place didn't need zipping and unzipping. ipkg would bow out because it couldn't unzip. it couldn't unzip because foo.ipk in the first place wasn't zipped. after it was zipped, ipkg could then unzip. once unzipped ipkg could then continue the installation. there is a message here about the phenomenology of protocols. i prefer to look at it as a trick i learned to do. i learned to foo-l ipkg. i swelled with pride at my accomplishment. _ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 00:30:27 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: CHANGELMAGES ARGUEMENTS Comments: To: WRYTING-L Disciplines Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit CHANGELMAGES ARGUEMENTS buffoons become overgrown a severe punishment it is hereby a messenger appear blew on hellas began to murmur reward to most peculiar specimen see the group three miles beyond variety by rimskys the steady humming the prisoner glanced suppressed it with dread antonia tower the critic latunskys of russian coachmen here terror took boxoffice girl wrinkled did not forget citadel could imbue procurator sat down thought in consternation: had not heard in the briefcase the barman drew ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 07:47:45 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Steven Shaviro's Connected & Sci-fi/SF Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" I've recently started reading Steve Shaviro's Connected or What it Means to Live in the Network Society and think it would be of interest to many folks on this list. (For one minor thing, what other book about science fiction and the internet starts out with an array of quotes that include lines by John Ashbery & Jack Spicer?) The blurb by Samuel R Delany has some bearing on the recent discussion on the list about how to refer to science fiction. FWIW, Delany, who I think is unquestionably located within the science fiction community, uses the term "sci-fi" rather than "SF". The full quote is: "These intelligent, entertaining, and intricate readings of our cultural superstructure - the sci-fi of Jeter, Dick, and Gibson, the heyday of Napster, and the early years of all-but-total Web freedom - now and again cast a harsh slantlight on the infrastructure that holds so much contemporary misery in place. This is a book to keep the mind agile and the spirit lively." -- Herb Levy P O Box 9369 Fort Worth, TX 76147 herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 12:35:41 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anselm Hollo Subject: a bit of history for kirby and friends MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit << As for the Finnish stuff -- I read this stuff about the Mongolian connection in the back of the Tampere University journal. >> This must have been some sort of Dada-Fascistoid joke. << I don't see why it would be more racist to be connected to Mongolia than to Germany. >> Because it was, as I said before, a late 19th / early 20th century theory favored by Hitler's precursors, including some right-wing Finland Swedes. << That in itself seems racist -- implying that it's ok to be a German, but not a Mongolian. >> The geneticists cited do not claim Finns *are* Germans, but that they are genetically predominantly *Germanic* -- as are the Swedes, Norwegians (Olson, yes?), Danes, and to a considerable degree, the so-called "Anglo-Saxons." << Anselm, if you are still there -- could you tell the story of the Finnish revolution, and answer the question as to whether or not it was ever a "fascist" society, as someone on this list has claimed it was (ever since the First World War, I think he was implying, and certainly during the years with the pact against Stalin). I didn't know whether that designation could really be used for Finland. I wanted to argue not, but I have little credibility here. ... I would like your take, and I'm sure many others would, too. >> No, Finland was never a "fascist society." The Finnish Civil War, which coincided with the Russian revolution and World War One, was fought between the Haves (so-called Whites) and the Have Nots (so-called Reds), with all the viciousness typical of such conflicts. Had the Reds won, Finland would have become a colony of the Soviet Union, as did Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, its neighbors in the Baltic region. Considerable numbers of studies about this conflict have been published in recent years. Can't say that I've perused all of them, but my general sense is that classic atrocities (e.g. mass executions of prisoners) were committed by both sides. The Whites' victory ensured Finland's hard-won independence until the country was attacked by the Soviet Union in 1939. Outnumbered fifty to one, the Finns managed to fight the Soviets to a standstill / armistice in 1940/41. When Hitler abrogated his pact with Stalin and invaded Russian soil, Finland was coerced into acting as a base of operations and provider of military manpower. When it became obvious that the Germans would not conquer Russia, the Finns made a separate peace with the Soviets and engaged in a brief war against the German troops stationed in Finland as they withdrew via Lapland into Norway (which they were still occupying). Numerous Northern Finnish towns and villages were burnt down by the Germans as they retreated. As must be obvious from the story of my life (for which, if interested, see: Caws and Causeries: Around Poetry and Poets, La Alameda / University of New Mexico Press, 1999), I found existence in that small country too restrictive half a century ago and left for Austria, the UK, and the U.S., which has become my homeland for better and for worse. I am, however, quite proud of its history as a severely oppressed country and people -- a *colony* of Sweden for SIX HUNDRED years, a colony of Russia for TWO HUNDRED! -- that despite this circumstance managed to forge a distinctive literature, music, and art, all of which are kept in high regard by the rest of Europe. Should anyone here be interested in the work of one of Finland's most remarkable poets, Pentti Saarikoski (1937-83), I recommend TRILOGY, La Alameda / U of NM Press, 2003, translated by and with a foreword by yours truly. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 13:02:08 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: please help MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would greatly appreciate any assistance in contacting Sonia Sanchez. Her old telephone number has been disconnected. I'm interested in securing an appearance by her at my SUNY college. Thanks so much. Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com kojapress.com amazon.com b&n.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 10:17:25 -0800 Reply-To: kalamu@aol.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ishaq Organization: Selah7 http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html Subject: INFO: washington, dc--upcoming poetry events Comments: To: THCO2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit INFO: washington, dc--upcoming poetry events ===================================== The Poetry Fix volume 2 issue 1 Hey all:) I hope your holidays were fun, festive and fabulous! This issue has tons of opportunities for poets/writers and folks who perform for money:) Lets dive in! _________________________________________________ Word of Mouth - Spoken Word/Poetry Open Mic Venue: Bossa bistro/gallery/lounge Address and #: 2463 18th St. NW, Adams Morgan, (202) 667-0088 Event Date: 2nd and 4th Monday of Each Month (next one Jan 12) Time: 8-10:30 Price: FREE More Info: laurie@wordofmouth.cc _________________________________________________ Every Monday: Bar Nun, 1326 U St. NW. 8:30pm - 1:00am. $5 admission. Hosted by the Sound Poets and Matthew Payne. For info call Matthew Payne 202-265-5132, 202-986-8995, or email him at themove2k@hotmail.com . __________________________________________________________________ Tuesday, January 13, 2004 Women In the Life Open Mic Corner of 17th & R 8:30pm No cover _______________________________________________ Wednesday, January 21, 2003 mothertongue is taking us through a time warp. It was the decade when we wondered "who shot JR", MJ was still black and could be found "Beating it" and pink leg warmers were all the rage! Come check out the 80's. We will have trivia, prizes and the fabulous poet Jahipster(feature) mothertongue rocks at the Black Cat (1811 14th Street, NW). Doors open at 8pm. $3-5 sliding scale. Don't miss DC's fab women spoken word artists. If you want more info on mothertongue or would like to sign up to read check us out at info@mothertongue.org ************************************************************************** Saturday, January 31st Women's Words Open Mic Sisterspace and Books 1515 U Street, NW 5:00-7:00pm Cover: $5.00 If you would like to read please email Michelleinbold@aol.com ______________________________________________________ Every Thursday: Open Mic Poetry @ Java Head Cafe! hosted by Drew "Droopy" Anderson 3629 12th St, NE (the corner of 12th and Otis St NE, former home of Brookland Cup of Dreams) 8-10pm, $5 cover. For more information, visit www.brokeballer.com. __________________________________________________________________ College Perk Poetry Slam! Wednesday, February 18, 2004 NO Cover Charge 1st Place - $100 2nd Place - $50 3rd Place - $25 At College Perk the point is the poetry and the poet, not the cover charge. Perk is situated in the bottom level of a house in College Park, MD 9078 Baltimore Ave College Park, MD Check out: www.collegeperk.org for directions and menu Open Mic starts at 8:13pm followed by feature poet (TBA) and then the SLAM! Email - radamyrrh@aol.com with any questions or booking. __________________________________________________________________ Beltway is celebrating its fourth birthday! The new issue of Beltway: An On-Line Poetry Quarterly is now available for free access at http://washingtonart.com/beltway.html. The winter 2004 issue features five accomplished DC-area poets. REED WHITTEMORE is the author of 13 books of poetry, and is a former Poetry Consultant to the Library of Congress. RICHARD BLANCO is the author of the poetry book City of a Hundred Fires. DONNA FOULKE is a graphic artist for the US Geological Survey who won the 2000 Alaska Native Writers Award. DANIEL GUTSTEIN teaches at The George Washington University and is Associate Editor of StoryQuarterly. And MYRA SKLAREW is a professor of literature at American University, the former President of Yaddo, and the author of 6 books of poems. Beltway also offers many services for writers in the DC area! Don't forget to check the Poetry News section, updated monthly, for information about readings, contests, calls for entries, and new publications. See the Archives for a growing anthology of DC-area poets, and the extensive links to other web sites by area poets, among other features. For more information about Beltway, please see http://washingtonart.com/beltway.html or write to the editor at beltway.poetry@juno.com. __________________________________________________________________ DC Writers Way When was the last time you had a whole afternoon to pursue your thoughts, to indulge in ideas? Writer's Way invites you to take a time-out at our creative writing workshop. Together with other writers, you'll be treated to timed writing periods, exercises designed to get your juices flowing, and positive feedback that will cradle, not crush, the eggshell of your newest creation. Small groups, all styles, beginners welcome. Enroll now! http://www.dcwritersway.org _________________________________________________ Jenny McKean Moore Free Community Workshop in Poetry at The George Washington University, Spring 2004. Lead by Rick Barot, author of The Darker Fall. Wednesdays, January 21 through April 28, from 7-9 pm. Applicants needs not have academic qualifications. Writers at the beginning and intermediate levels will be the most appropriate candidates. The class will focus on close readings of poems by established writers, as well as the workshopping of poems generated by class members. No fees charged. Students at Consortium Schools and previous Jenny McKean Moore Workshop participants are not eligible. To apply, send a letter with name, address, phones, email, and a brief personal history. Enclose a 10-15 page sample of your poetry (with SASE if you want poems returned). Application Deadline: January 9, 2004. Send to: Poetry Workshop, Department of English, The George Washington University, 801 22nd St. NW, Suite 760, Washington, DC 20052. NO EMAIL SUBMISSIONS OR APPLICATIONS. __________________________________________________________________ Stars of Tomorrow Youth Foundation Launches New Leadership Program December 30, 2003 - Capital Heights, Maryland - Stars of Tomorrow Youth Foundation is preparing to launch its new youth program, S.T.A.R.S Leadership Program. The leadership program is open to students that are Striving To Achieve Respect and Success‚Äù. The program starts on January 7, 2004 and meets every Wednesday at 6:00 p.m. until the duration of the program. The program is designed to help teens, ages 10-15, deal with the issues of growing up in today's society. Participants who are members of the program will receive leadership manuals, membership cards, T-shirts and many other materials that will help them learn how to be tomorrow's leaders. The Stars of Tomorrow Youth Foundation (SoTYF) is a nonprofit organization based in the Washington Metropolitan Area. SoTYF believes that by teaʧÄÊ*ÄÊúÄ‚ÄÄÁÄÄʺÄÁåÄʧÄÁêÄʧÄÁòÄÊîÄ‚ÄÄÁàÄʺÄÊ*ÄÊîÄ‚ÄÄÊ¥ÄʺÄÊêÄÊîÄÊ*ÄÁåÄ‚ÄÄÊÑÄÊ*ÄÊêÄ‚ÄÄÊ*ÄÊîÄÊÑÄÊêÄÊîÄÁàÄÁåÄ‚ÄÄʧÄÊ*Ä‚ÄÄÁêÄÊÝÄÊîÄ‚ÄÄÊåÄʺÄÊ¥ÄÊ¥ÄÁîÄÊ*ÄʧÄÁêÄÁ§Ä‚*Ä‚ÄÄÁêÄÊÝÄÊîÄ‚ÄÄÁ§ÄʺÄÁîÄÁêÄÊÝÄ‚ÄÄÁúÄʧÄÊ*ÄÊ*Ä‚ÄÄÊàÄÊîÄ‚ÄÄÊ¥ÄʺÄÁàÄÊîÄ‚ÄÄÊÑÄÊåÄÁêÄʧÄÁòÄÊîÄ‚ÄÄÊ*ÄÊîÄÊÑÄ ÊêÄÊîÄÁàÄÁåÄ‚ÄÄʧÄÊ*Ä‚ÄÄÁêÄÊÝÄÊîÄ‚ÄÄÊåÄʺÄÊ¥ÄÊ¥ÄÁîÄÊ*ÄʧÄÁêÄÁ§Ä‚ÄÄÁúÄÊÝÄÊîÄÊ*Ä‚ÄÄÁêÄÊÝÄÊîÄÁ§Ä‚ÄÄÊÑÄÁàÄÊîÄ‚ÄÄÊÑÄÊêÄÁîÄÊ*ÄÁêÄÁåÄ‚*Ä‚ÄÄ‚ÄÄÂåÄʺÄÂêħĉòÄ‚ÄÄÁÄÄ ÁàÄʺÄÊ¥ÄʺÄÁêÄÊîÄÁåÄ‚ÄÄÊ*ÄʧÄÁêÄÊîÄÁàÄÊÑÄÁàÄÁ§Ä‚ÄÄÊÑÄÊ*ÄÊêÄ‚ÄÄÊ¥ÄÁîÄʱ¥ticultural events to the youth to nurture their skills and encourage appreciation for culture of all kinds. Changing our community takes time, commitment, donations and sponsorships from individuals and corporations like you! The Stars of Tomorrow Youth Foundation is seeking sponsorships of youth for the leadership programs. If at least one child can be sponsored, there will be more positive leaders to help shape our society. If you are interested in becoming a SoTYF partner or would like more information, please contact us today. We look forward to hearing from you. Let us help today to shape tomorrow's leaders. For more information, Please contact: Kisha M. Morris Marketing & PR ConsultantK. Morris and Company(301) 350-7827 __________________________________________________________________ Call for Poets --If you are a woman (or know women poets) and << you write poetry about contemporary political issues, be a part of a new and unprecedented anthology! --There is little documentation of this current voice, yet a great deal of political poetry is being written by women from around the world. This is a project sponsored in part by the U of Colorado's Undergraduate Research Opportunities Program. We are hoping to publish this anthology in the spring of next year, pending additional funding. --We are looking for submissions of poetry from previously unpublished authors (small zines are fine, we just do not want famous authors). Submissions from outside of the US are highly encouraged. Please include a short bio unless you wish to remain anonymous. There are no hard deadlines or length requirements, but ASAP would be greatly appreciated so that we can move on to further phases of the project. --Contribute or send questions to Jessica at radicalpoetry@riseup.net www.international.ucla.edu/cseas >> __________________________________________________________________ TRADE SECRETS Check out this beautiful boutique on 1515 U Street,NW www.thesecretsout.com __________________________________________________________________ Just finished writing that great American novel and now you need an editor: Contact Shirley Hayden POB 70904 Washington, DC 20024 202.257.7883 ****************************************************************************** ****** All the information enclosed was passed on to me. If you would like to know more about the event - contact the folks listed:) Hope you found something to tickle your fancy:) And as always - pass the word to folks who might be interested. NOTE: If you would like me to post your event please send it to me a week (or more) before the event. Michelle She asks me why I only write of sad things I tell her I only write the truth And when joy enters my life then I 'll write about that >> this is e-drum, a listserv providing information of interests to black writers and diverse supporters worldwide. e-drum is moderated by kalamu ya salaam (kalamu@aol.com). -- - ___ Stay Strong "Peace sells but who's buying?" Megadeth "This mathematical rhythmatical mechanism enhances my wisdom of Islam, keeps me calm from doing you harm, when I attack, it's Vietnam" --HellRazah "It's not too good to stay in a white man's country too long" Mutabartuka http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html http://awol.objector.org/artistprofiles/welfarepoets.html http://ilovepoetry.com/search.asp?keywords=braithwaite&orderBy=date http://www.dpgrecordz.com/fredwreck/ http://www.lowliferecords.co.uk/ http://loudandoffensive.com/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/THCO2 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 10:40:28 -0800 Reply-To: drumbeat-weekend_edition@yahoogroups.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ishaq Organization: Selah7 http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html Subject: [drumbeat-weekend_edition] Protesting Somalis Face Indefinite Incarceration MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://www.blackpressusa.com/News/Article.asp?SID=12&Title=Diaspora+Digest&NewsID=3162 Protesting Somalis Face Indefinite Incarceration by Lloyd Nicholas Special to the NNPA from The Insight News Group Minneapolis (NNPA) - Some 20 persons of Somali origin who were detained by the Department of Homeland Security (INS) over the last few years remain incarcerated for an indefinite period says Omar Jamal, executive director, Somali Justice Advocacy Center. ìWe spoke to Homeland Security on Monday, Dec. 15, and the situation looks grim. The authorities said the detainees will not be released, but if they request to be returned to Somalia, some arrangement could be worked out,î reported Jamal in an interview. The Somali Justice Advocacy Center here had expressed concern about the conditions of the Somali immigrant detainees, some of whom were transferred to Oak Park Heights prison in Stillwater, Minn., after a protest riot broke out at the Rush City Detention Center in late November. The detainees had refused to return to their cells and demanded a resolution of their immigration status after a protracted period of incarceration. The Somali Human Rights Association, in investigating the prison disturbance, warned that some of the the 20 refugees detained, ìhave been in legal limbo for years now, lingering in indefinite detention.î The problem, explained Jamal, ìis the reality that Somalia does not exist as a country and is under the control of armed elements who are likely to place the lives of returning refugees at risk and under U.S. law, refugees cannot be returned to a place that is not recognized as a country. And since these groups of detainees are not allowed legal status, they are detained indefinitely, this is not much different from a life sentence,î said Jamal. Meanwhile, a Somali news report stated recently that proposed peace talks among Somali political groups were abandoned. The talks, originally scheduled for December 9, then postponed to December 18 have been put off again, said the IRIN News Agency. Ugandan President, Yoweri Museveni, a facilitator of the peace initiative, is trying to arrange a meeting of Somali leaders in Kampala. The purpose of the original 10-day talks, due to be held in Mombasa, was ìto give the leaders a chance to iron out outstanding issues and engage in personal reconciliationî, IRIN reported. Talks have been underway since October 2002 and have been dogged by wrangles over issues such as an interim charter, the number of participants and the selection of future parliamentarians Members can access the egroups website any time and read the group's posted messages at: http://www.egroups.com/messages/Drumbeat-weekend_edition ... Thank you for becoming part of our Drum Beat family. Please lending a helping hand by posting informative information to the group at: Drumbeat-weekend_edition@egroups.com For more information about this group go to: http://www.egroups.com/group/Drumbeat-weekend_edition * http://groups.yahoo.com/group/drumbeat-weekend_edition/ -- - ___ Stay Strong "Peace sells but who's buying?" Megadeth "This mathematical rhythmatical mechanism enhances my wisdom of Islam, keeps me calm from doing you harm, when I attack, it's Vietnam" --HellRazah "It's not too good to stay in a white man's country too long" Mutabartuka http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html http://awol.objector.org/artistprofiles/welfarepoets.html http://ilovepoetry.com/search.asp?keywords=braithwaite&orderBy=date http://www.dpgrecordz.com/fredwreck/ http://www.lowliferecords.co.uk/ http://loudandoffensive.com/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/THCO2 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 13:40:30 -0500 Reply-To: Geoffrey Gatza Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Geoffrey Gatza Subject: continuing to counter the profit-driven fiction industry Comments: To: Pelton Ted MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable STARCHERONE TO BE DISTRIBUTED BY SPD SMALL PRESS DISTRIBUTION (SPD) has informed STARCHERONE BOOKS that the = non-profit fiction publisher will be added to SPD's list of publishers = in 2004. Founded in 1969, SPD is the leading distributor of books by = small and independent literary publishers, and this decision not only = means effective national distribution for Starcherone Books but = recognition of the importance and necessity of the Starcherone mission = -- to publish innovative fiction by new writers and reprints of classic = avant-garde texts. Starcherone would like to thank its supporters -- = which include established writers, bookstore owners, editors, and = friends who have done us countless favors, small and large. 2004 looks = to be Starcherone's best year yet, beginning with publication of Woman = with Dark Horses by Aimee Parkison, the winner of our 2003 manuscript = contest, in June (advance copies will be available at AWP in late = March), and continuing with the announcement of our 2nd contest winner = in August and the publication of a yet-untitled collection by Kenneth = Bernard by the end of the year. If you are receiving this announcement, = you have our thanks. We hope to repay your enthusiasm for Starcherone = Books by continuing to counter the profit-driven fiction industry, = bringing out interesting new work of artistic integrity for years to = come. http://www.starcherone.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 19:51:43 +0100 Reply-To: magee@uni.lodz.pl Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Magee Subject: Serene Velocity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit paint flecks faintly blinking 'first-person film-making' we think we know we are Less the equivalence between the representation and its impulse than the recognition of the necessity of this division for the turbulence it produced when disturbances of the conventions were no longer enough, and this gives the writing its anxiety, its self-conscious ambition and the overload on the circuits, the codes, could this have happened only in an expressive mode? "We ought to know well enough by this date the dangers of certain kinds of sympathetic identifications with the racially, sexually, or gendered other as being ways of appropriating another's power.... It is thus easy to forget how identification across social divisions like race, gender, sexuality, and class can have two very different consequences: first, the author can subvert false divisions by establishing a communality with the imagined other; second, the author can submerge the difference of the other by claiming it as the author's own." (Literary Culture and U.S. Imperialism, 148). Rowe's problem disappears once any effort at identification is disavowed by purging the representation of its pretense to sympathetic affect, as though the writing had the power to make the other's persecution its own, especially if and when subversions tend to collapse back into the dominant code. Ernie Gehr's 1970 institutional hallway situates the viewer in an electric grid where the architectural severity of those pulsating frames' double location, the boxcar, all historical memory of which has been effaced by space and light, has been transmuted into the pure appearance of luminous immunity. Senghor once wrote how he was writing like a machine gun, after the automatic writing of the French surrealists, then taken prisoner by the Germans, he started reading Goethe. It was the prestige of military power that turned the colonial subject, that fabled subaltern of so many theoretical fictions, from one space of writing to another, and such an example might remind anyone writing in English of the threat of the possibility that they are writing on the back of a tank qualitatively different than Tiennamen Square. "It was at the end of the year 1941. I was in Poitiers in a camp for prisoners of war from the colonies. There had been, between 1930 and 1939, the intoxicating years of the New Black in France. Armed with the miraculous weapons of automatic writing, faster than machine guns. After the defeat of France and the West in 1940, with the lucidity of sunrise, Goethe appeared before my eyes in all the colors of the rainbow's balance of beauty born of polytechnical culture more than from encyclopedic instruction. But what is Culture?" (Editions de Seuil, 1964). The immense prestige that accompanies military conquest. There has to be a resolution to this problem, the memory of the mass grave as the future the writing will inhabit, without having to hate the language one is writing in for having to write into it the guilt or condemnation of the privileged and privileging 'Western' voice and its capacity for assimilative inclusions. Senghor answers his own question this way: "The problem is how to transform the false opposition assimilation-association, and to give to Culture its dialectical movement by constructing a productive dialogue between two civilizations towards an equilibrium." That would be a culture of translation. Perhaps the reverse process is the historical moment being undergone now, accelerating conflicts to forestall the dialectic (the Western unvoicing?), and accepting vast thresholds of destruction to preserve false oppositions, and the paradox is this: the overcoming of those oppositions can't happen on an idealized smooth global surface free of the ideological honing of divisions across national, racial, sexual, gendered and class subjectivities? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 14:22:38 -0500 Reply-To: olsonjk@delhi.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kirby Olson Organization: SUNY Delhi Subject: Re: a bit of history for kirby and friends MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Kirby Olson wrote: > Oh Anselm, I wasn't aware of the fascist background of the Mongolian > theory. However, there was a lot of discussion about Finnish roots > (genetic roots) in Finland when I was there. I used to play badminton > with a sociology student (he was not a brilliant student, but he was a > terrific badminton player) and he would tell me about all the > different theories, and was constantly clipping articles for me. In > some of them they try to trace Finnish through different language > links -- there were even some theorists who had connected Finnish to > Korean and Japanese. All academic knowledge is provisional, but this > may have been more provisional than the more grounded theories. One > argument claimed that Finns simply came from all over the place and > can't be pinned to one place. That was probably the easiest one to > take? > > But still I wouldn't think that the Mongolians were somehow worse than > the Germans, even though Hitler did. Just because Hitler thought > something doesn't mean it's wrong or right. He had a decent idea with > the Volkswagon, for instance. We don't have to reject everything that > he thought. I thought that Finns were extremely beautiful because to > me they looked like Asians with albino features. It was a stunning > combination. I thought there were more beautiful women there than any > other place I've been. A close second were the Estonians (I knew the > language was connected but was hurrying in that email). To me this is > a very positive theory, rather than something horrifying. Even if > Hitler thought the Asian people were somehow inferior, that doesn't > mean we have to see them through his eyes. If the Finns came from > some Siberian area (one weird thing is that many Finnish men are > hairless, and I think that Asian men have less hair on their chest > than say, me) it might just be curious, rather than loaded with > tremendous racial implications. > > Your short summary of the Finnish governments was quite welcome, at > least to me, so thanks so much. I had the outline, but I couldn't > have put it so succinctly or so clearly, and I might have goofed up > some part of it, too. Since the inception in 1917, it was a liberal > democracy too in the sense that there were elections, and they were > fair, right? > > I wanted to put in one more good word for Finland: if you ever get > there -- the yogurt is the best I've tasted. It is much better than > the French. I can't say why. I also miss their potato pies. > > Nevertheless, ne more thing about racism in Finland. About 98% of > Finns are quite welcoming and liberal, and are astonished to hear that > you've been harassed by another Finn. About 2% of Finns (I'm > guessing) have an active program of ethnic cleansing. It may be much > less than this. But if you are somewhat darker and end up in Finland, > it pays to be paranoid. If you are fair, you have a free pass. But > if you are darker, you will eventually be attacked. Anselm may not be > aware of this, because from pictures I have seen he is quite > fair-skinned. Many of my friends were Mediterranean looking French > guys. Philippe Jacob, an ingenious surrealist sensibility who taught > in Tampere, was knocked to the ground for no reason while coming home > from a movie a few years ago. He was knocked senseless by a man > standing in a line waiting to get into a bar. Philippe is about five > feet tall and has had many many reconstructive surgeries to fix all of > his broken teeth. I knew an Indian man who had his car destroyed when > somebody poured salt into the gas tank. He got endless prank phone > calls, and has been jumped. If you talk to any darker skinned person > who's been in Finland for some time, you will get these horror > stories. I myself was jumped twice by drunks, but outran them. I've > also been harassed by people with an axe to grind who aren't drunk, > even in the public library. It's the absolute worst on national > holidays. I would stay inside. I also stopped going into bars. Like > I said, most Finns are really really nice, and moreover want to > practise their English. But it only takes one jerk to knock you flat > and ruin your whole day. > > My more fair-skinned French friends never suffered this kind of > thing. It's admittedly only my own and maybe twenty other people's > experience, but I didn't lie about it. > > Finnish literature and even architecture is quite distinctive and > amazing, nevertheless, as Anselm says, and also -- the economic > structure -- it's a kind of socialist paradise, but you get to vote > and say what you think. Their poets are fascinating, and Anselm is > almost certainly the best door to reading them. > > There are some good novelists too such as the guy who wrote the > Unknown Soldier -- Vaino Linna was his name -- which deals with the > Red/Whites and the Civil War and much else. There's a new translation > just out from Aspasia Books in Canada. My wife loves that writer. > She was a Finnish literature major. Vaino Linna is supposed to be the > major Finnish novelist of the 20th century. It's not terribly > experimental, but it is very powerful. I'm looking forward to reading > more of those now that they've been translated and published. Finally, Anselm -- could you clarify one more thing. I had reckoned that the Lutheran background of the Nordic countries had something to do with their liberal nature. You were raised as a Lutheran -- as were almost all Finns, and almost all the Nordic people. Would you say that the reason that Finland is a socialist democracy (a true one, rather than in name only) has something to do with that Lutheran background? If so, could you put your finger on it? Or would you say rather that it was something else that contributed to the general sense of equality between the classes in those countries (comparatively speaking to America, for instance). I'm not sure you're going to think that's so, but if so, how would you account for it? I've been arguing that it's the Lutheranism, and this has of course infuriated some. What led to the amazing social programs in the Nordic countries? Was it the church, or was it Marxists, or some kind of combo? I honestly don't know the history of this, and thought you might. While you're on the line, I might as well ask in order to clarify this. I would love to know. > > > Best -- Kirby > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 15:33:05 -0500 Reply-To: olsonjk@delhi.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kirby Olson Organization: SUNY Delhi Subject: Re: LOTR & Mr. Olson's Finland! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Maria, your response deserves a response, but it's a long history that I will have to cut short. My distaste for chasing racists as an academic parlor game is that it is too easy, principally. A group of people decide that someone is racist, and then it's too often in my experience like a bunch of hounds chasing a fox. I feel sorry for the fox. Too often this is what I experience as the discussion of racism. But let's trace this discussion of race, and gender (almost nobody cares to talk about class any more because almost everybody who has the luxury to have a conversation like this is at least in the middle class even if they didn't start there). I think it can be traced back to two principle sources -- Tel quel in the Seventies (Kristeva, Barthes, Derrida, Foucault, to name principle members) and to Simone de Beauvoir and her circle in the fifties. The Cultural Revolution that these two groups set out to launch was based on Maoism. As Simone de Beauvoir put it in Sartre's journal, the attempt to "stigmatize those who use sexist images" was what they were setting out to do. Historically, this is fairly easy to verify as an outcome of Maoism. Simone de Beauvoir wrote a book on Maoism, and she and Sartre were still handing out Maoist pamphlets in Paris in the 1970s. This is common knowledge if you were ever a member of any anarchist circle, which I was. The other group (Tel quel) was also very powerfully connected to Maoism. Kristeva also wrote a very important book on Mao (Chinese Women) and Tel Quel's Manifesto (1971) praised Maoism and ended with the phrase, Vive Mao! Take Maoism, and add it to the Revolutionary rhetoric of France -- and you've got a bloody mess with heads flying in every direction. The rhetoric of St. Just, Marat, Robespierre, Danton, and that whole gang, has completely infected French thought. It's disgusting to read the way those people went after one another in the name of Virtue. The surrealists under Breton did the same thing to one another. It's completely disgusting the way that Philippe Soupault was thrown out of the group for smoking English cigarettes. It's the way a lynch mob works, and it's called scapegoating. Everybody shits, and shit stinks. To say that someone else is a shitter -- yes, you are the one that shits -- and therefore you should be called and your name should be erased, doesn't make any sense, right? In the same way you yourself said it was impossible not to be a racist in a racist society, if I recall correctly. Therefore, if you want to talk about your own racism -- I would welcome that. I would totally welcome it. But to talk about someone else's without implicating yourself, and especially if the discussion gets vicious, I feel is not only unfair, but sets up a contagion of Sadistic bloodlust that people seem only too willing to jump into, and doesn't seem to be have a historical basis in American discourse in which giving the other guy a right to speak is a given. I don't know if I should have said anything. I would never do it in person. I'm too timid. I just get up and go, generally. I think it's a disgusting act to scapegoat others and I've seen it happen too often. Scapegoating is a terrible process. I've seen it happen so often that at this point when I even smell it in the air I get sick to my stomach. Aldon Nielsen and others may have more to say on this than I do. Maybe their attacks on racism are more nuanced than the ones I'm used to in which there is no regard for truth. I really should read his books. I intended to do that over the break but ended up reading John Updike for a class I have to teach (I hadn't previously read Updike). I think that if we make such charges against anyone living or dead we'd better be careful about it, and not get too enthusiastic, and also remember that this very swiftly turns into scapegoating (I'm not sure if anybody's read Girard in this group, but I'm using his theories). So I say talk about your own racism all you want, and implicate yourself. If you talk about someone else's, it seems to me that there is a presumption of your own purity (you don't shit, or that your shit doesn't stink), and this sets up the terrible process of finding that unlucky bastard's who does and lynching them. I actually have never broached this topic before. I usually stay away from it. But part of the reason for wanting to be on this board was that I had hoped to discuss poetry. It seems that nobody much does this. I read mostly politics. I'm extremely interested in contemporary poetry, but the only conversations that appear to take place on this topic of poetry are ones that I've started. Meanwhile, it seems to me, at least, that the entire academic world is talking about race and gender. If you go through the MLA listings that's all it is, and it is all or almost all conducted with a holier than thou sensibility in which some poor writer is given a kind of Inquisition treatment with the implication being that Hemingway, or Tolkein, or whomever, should be permanently silenced and he was such a prick and I'm so perfect. It seems to me that this stems from the French revolution's rhetoric that has made its way through surrealism and various French schools, and has been magnified by the Maoist Cultural Revolution -- witht he implication that anybody who's not with us should be sent to Manchuria. I also hate the rightist discourse in this country. But there seems to be only two options, and the right for the most isn't interested in poetry at all. I think I might know one Republican poet who has read Frank O'hara. If there's a third way -- where people will talk about poetry, implicate themselves if they make a charge, please point me there and I will go. Meanwhile, I guess my job is to point out what I see as vicious behavior, and try to create a discourse community. I don't have one otherwise, and am grateful for what I do get from this board and the chance to interact with others. I'd go elsewhere if there's another place where people are talking about poetry more than politics, and somebody could point me there, and then you guys would be free to talk all you wish about the racial crimes of Tolkein without my pointing out how unfair it all is. Right now you're all I've got as I'm in an extremely rural area. I do have one other board, but there are only about five posters on that board. I love that there are so many on this board and I keep getting to know new people. I have emailed Ron Silliman, and Mairead Byrne, and Murat, and Kazim Ali, and lots of other people who've intrigued me. And Maria, I remember you too as a friend and am surprised to come across you again. Just try not to upset me too much, or try to send me elsewhere, or try to get me thrown me off the board. As long as I'm here, I will say what I think, and feel that everybody else should, too. -- Kirby Maria Damon wrote: > At 4:12 PM -0500 1/9/04, Kirby Olson wrote: > >... No one ever talks > >about their own racism... > > depends on the company you keep. there are lots of things people talk > about but not in public. i bet in confessionals, anti-racism > workshops, twelve-step groups, co-counseling sessions, etc, people do > talk about this in self-critical or exploratory ways, along with > discussions of their homophobia, sexism, classism, and other > "character defects". why is discussion of *race* such a lightning > rod? you paint in very broad strokes, kirby, not attending to the > nuances of academic life and selling a lot of folks very short. > > > > > -- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 16:19:34 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Brennan Subject: Terror Hustle Level Lowered to Yellowbelly Comments: To: frankfurt-school@lists.village.virginia.edu, corp-focus@lists.essential.org, WRYTING-L@LISTSERV.UTORONTO.CA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Rumsfeld's just a sociopath with an Ivy League education." Click here: The Assassinated Press Terror Hustle Level Lowered to Yellowbelly: President Bush Denies Any Similarities To Michael Jackson: Declares 'No White Child From Lubbock Left Behind': Der Groppenfuhrer To Appoint Wall Mart As Official Purchasing Agent For CA; Cites Record For Cost Cutting of Employee Benefits: Charles Krauthammer Slated For Twisted Sister Award: by Slowmo Promo The Assassinated Press They hang the man and flog the woman That steal the goose from off the common, But let the greater villain loose That steals the common from the goose. ".....at a time when I am speaking to you about the paradox of desire -- in the sense that different goods obscure it -- you can hear outside the awful language of power. There's no point in asking whether they are sincere or hypocritical, whether they want peace of whether they calculate the risks. The dominating impression as such a moment is that something that may pass for a prescribed good; information addresses and captures impotent crowds to whom it is poured forth like a liquor that leaves them dazed as they move toward the slaughter house. One might even ask if one would allow the cataclysm to occur without first giving free reign to this hubbub of voices...." ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 16:44:31 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: a bit of history for kirby and friends MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 01/10/04 12:36:05 PM, JDHollo@AOL.COM writes: > As must be obvious from the story of my life (for which, if interested,=20 > see: > Caws and Causeries: Around Poetry and Poets, La Alameda / University of Ne= w > Mexico Press, 1999), I found existence in that small country too restricti= ve > half a century ago and left for Austria, the UK, and the U.S., which has=20 > become > my homeland for better and for worse.=A0 I am, however, quite proud of its > history as a severely oppressed country and people -- a *colony* of Sweden= =20 > for SIX > HUNDRED years, a colony of Russia for TWO HUNDRED! -- that despite this > circumstance managed to forge a distinctive literature, music, and art, al= l=20 > of which > are kept in high regard by the rest of Europe. >=20 > Should anyone here be interested in the work of one of Finland's most > remarkable poets, Pentti Saarikoski (1937-83), I recommend TRILOGY, La=20 > Alameda / U of > NM Press, 2003, translated by and with a foreword by yours truly. >=20 Anselm, Your history (and attitude towards Finland) is remarkably similar to my=20 attitude towards Turkey and its literature, though I can not say that Turkis= h=20 history during the Ottoman Empire was quite a history of victimization. On t= he=20 other hand, during the time of the Turkish Republic and World War II, Turkey= , the=20 Ottoman Empire extinct, negotiated a neutralist stance between the Germans a= nd=20 allies which maybe what Finland wished it could have done. Turkish territorial push and shove with the Russians also goes for several=20 hundred years. The Bosphorus, the doorway to the Meditteranean, was the grea= t=20 prize the Russians always coveted. Interestingly, Istanbul/Constantinople -w= here=20 the Bosphorus is, separating/uniting Asia and Europe- has always been the=20 coveted prize -Byzantium, the city protected by the Virgin Mary and promised= to=20 Islam by Allah- both for the Christians and Moslems. In my upcoming antholog= y=20 by Talisman, Eda: An Anthology of Contemporary Turkish Poetry, this quality=20= of=20 Istanbul plays a central part. I sensed a subtext in the exchanges between Kirby and you during the last=20 week. I was struck particularly since Kirby had told me that he had written=20= about=20 you. Is the relationship of the Finns with the fascists and communists durin= g=20 the thirties and early forties still a very contentious issue in Finland? Di= d=20 the Lutheran Church support the Germans? This is a question to Kirby Olson: Why would you be hated in Finland? Murat Nemet-Nejat ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 17:16:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: Steven Shaviro's Connected & Sci-fi/SF In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi- I've been reading the same book and am having difficulty, especially since I'm somewhat resistant to Baudrillard/Virilio etc. - a style which encompassses a considerable degree of rhetoric. For example, Shaviro states that the network is shaped like a fractal, self-similar across all scales. But if you look at, for example, the actual construction of Networks from Petrie nets through the Internet itself - and if you look at the protocols, processes, ad objects, across these networks or subtending them - this isn't true at all. I find myself trying to give into the poetics of the writing and at the same time - I find myself increasingly critical. Statements which are almost true or rhetorically moving, can build up, one after another, until a very problematic state occurs. I'd say more here but have the feeling my thinking is blurred; I'm working on a PDA that I'm also programming and everything's a bit iffy at the moment, including my spelling. Alan http://www.asondheim.org/ http://www.asondheim.org/portal/.nikuko http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt Trace projects http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm finger sondheim@panix.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 17:13:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: a bit of history for kirby and friends Comments: To: olsonjk@delhi.edu In-Reply-To: <400050FE.F8B90112@delhi.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > there were even some theorists who had connected Finnish to > > Korean and Japanese. My late father in law was born in Finland, and he spent a lot of his life theorizing on the relationship between the Finns and just about everyone. They were a lost tribe, they discovered mezzo-america, etc. -- George Bowering Many signs of food on clothing. 303 Fielden Ave. Port Colborne. ON, L3K 4T5 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 19:18:25 -0500 Reply-To: Millie Niss Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Millie Niss Subject: Re: Looking for SPAM Poems Comments: To: mIEKAL aND MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here is my spam poem: Spam satisfy her every time with exclusive pre-approved no-interest pornography, hard to please? try our doctor-proven online virus scanner, guaranteed 10% commission from Nigerian bank holiday-savings on all body parts sure to amaze 10,000 potential employers watch nubile Asian college girls with extended warranty and service contract your skills, $1000 a day by the end of two weeks late? no problem, Swedish pill aborts all programs: dangerous virus in new people, new places: yours to discover small penis size of genetically-modified soybeans, spreading thigh, ass, boobs believe it, you are more suspicious emails: lewd women helping women with advice, free trafficked sex-slaves in developing acne? try our herbal cream of the crop fresh-picked endangered whales for men who love big women in time-share condos. ----- Original Message ----- From: "mIEKAL aND" To: Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2004 2:25 AM Subject: Looking for SPAM Poems > Poetry at About.com (Bob Holman & Margery Snyder's turf) is looking for > spam poems. Surely someone here can spare a few. > > http://forums.about.com/ab-poetry/messages?lgnF=y&msg=25050.1 > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 19:12:08 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Heidi Peppermint Subject: Re: Looking for SPAM Poems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Spaminella Heidi, Please tell me how I can reach you Heidi, let's negotiate your past Heidi, recognize any of these Heidi, I just completed Heidi, I finalized Heidi, recognize any of these Heidi, I have enclosed Heidi, we locked you in Heidi, Please tell me how I can reach you Heidi, just as I promised Heidi, I requoted Heidi, recognize any of these Heidi, I have the info Heidi, Please look over Heidi, Please tell me how I can reach you Heidi, why wait Heidi, I've accepted your web Heidi, recognize any of these Heidi, Please tell me how I can reach you > From: mIEKAL aND > Date: 2004/01/10 Sat AM 01:25:18 CST > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Looking for SPAM Poems > > Poetry at About.com (Bob Holman & Margery Snyder's turf) is looking for > spam poems. Surely someone here can spare a few. > > http://forums.about.com/ab-poetry/messages?lgnF=y&msg=25050.1 > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 20:39:20 -0500 Reply-To: Geoffrey Gatza Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Geoffrey Gatza Subject: Re: Looking for SPAM Poems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ Dickinson - Niedecker - Armantrout: The trouble with tropes An explication of post-avant & the School of Quietude Nada's ring Ron Silliman forthcoming events in Chicago, Philadelphia, New York Defining the line in speech as well as writing Blog less, blog better John Godfrey's Private Lemonade: the role of syntax in abstraction What the value of prose can bring to the poem Silent rhyme: Marianne Moore & the question of the line Philadelphia Progressive Poetry Calendar Whose Marianne Moore? Jena Osman: turning poetry inside out Jena Osman: Memory error theater Disruptive poetry: Jena Osman, Christian Bök et al When the unimaginable suddenly appears obvious - the intellectual theater of Jena Osman Mary Margaret Sloan on poetry in Chicago http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 18:29:05 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: elen gebreab Subject: FW: A Global Anthology of Women's Voices on the Politics of Water (3/10/04; collection) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Original Message----- From: owner-cfp@dept.english.upenn.edu [mailto:owner-cfp@dept.english.upenn.edu] On Behalf Of Nandita Ghosh Sent: Monday, December 29, 2003 6:24 AM To: cfp@english.upenn.edu Subject: CFP: A Global Anthology of Women's Voices on the Politics of Water (3/10/04; collection) Please post widely. = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= Call for Submissions: We are looking for a diverse, international cross-section of women writers for a global anthology on the politics of water. Confluence: A Global Anthology of Women's Voices on the Politics of Water will combine poetry, short fiction, testimonial accounts, and essays on how water crosses various political boundaries be they national, racial, ethnic, class, or gender. This anthology is a response to the growing concern over the role of water in our increasingly fragile environment, a concern that is sure to become more anxiety prone in the 21st Century as debates over modernization and development become more acrid. It will incorporate a range of issues such as droughts and floods, waste management, dams and irrigation, water pollution, water as a national or racial barrier, and water as a feminine space over which the masculine process of industrialization claims agency. The work will address water as myth, metaphor, and material reality. Guidelines for creative writing: Poetry submissions should not exceed 5 pages. Flash fiction should be between100-500 words and short fiction and memoirs between 2000-3000 words. Submit to: Paola Corso, 133 8th Avenue #4E, Brooklyn, NY 11215 paola_corso@hotmail.com Guidelines for essays: Essays should not exceed 5,000 words. =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Submit to: Dr. Nandita Ghosh, 40-35 67h Street, #55, Woodside, NY 11377 nan_dita@excite.com = =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 DEADLINE: March 10, 2004 Coeditors: Paola Corso is a 2003 New York Foundation for the Arts poetry fellow. Her poetry and fiction are set in her native Pittsburgh river town and explore the environmental impact of industrialization from a working-class perspective. She and Dr. Anna Kay France co-edited the book, International Women Playwrights. She currently teaches a prose workshop at Fordham University. Nandita Ghosh is an assistant professor at Farleigh Dickinson University where she teaches courses on literature, culture, and the environment. She was involved in mobilizing active support in the US against the construction of the Maheshwar dam on the River Narmada and has networked with members of the Narmada Bachao Andolan (a grassroots movement in India protesting the environmental damage and human displacement caused by damming the River Narmada), as well as various human rights and environmental groups based in the US. = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D From the Literary Calls for Papers Mailing List CFP@english.upenn.edu Full Information at http://www.english.upenn.edu/CFP/ or write Erika Lin: elin@english.upenn.edu = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 00:02:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: world used up MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII world used up t o h e a r s w l - n d i f c p , v g m b y . u z : k ; 3 0 ' ) ( x _ 1 9 2 4 8 5 [ ] 7 / q " # } { % & ? j | ! 6 > + < = @ \ * b e c a u s f o . i p k n t h r l w ' z d , g m y - _ (c ul le d fr om www .a so nd he im .o rg ) a 10 -y ea r hi st or y of lo vi ng , wr it in gs de o, un dw k, ne t wo rk em pl oy me nt pr es si on il ln s, sa dn at h, ol en ce bo mb wa rs po ll ut io ns ex ti nc ar va ceh . Im ty pi s ly mo ro se Co mp aq Ae 486 /2 5; bri gh t- er ou fo th e ey e, lov g to as el - an is re if fe pt ta fve ry na tu t, vla ot ur br ocl Cra : ki g, mu rm ld av gn ie r. Roc k ha no ag ai pa pe r; pap o- he: yb sp ac ge tt sw n, yo te n lk wi al 30 00 be sh li Jo s' ch su ed co 't bl ue s; da lu rr by up ca (h s) ; ny ys xi Si Th Er ic As c; Hdu af fi ni ho My gr is. os sc am rp et mm rl id Tir l. Oct F_w s_ Be x, Meo 19 92 40 ' Re Gr 199 2, 18 Wu tk i, 90 15 An Sw, 89 13 [N do 98 0 ef 88 .] og Ltd ., 97 3 wh ab ei hs go ga di us ph ux Au cs /a ma od qu mi ay ss m) Go rd Mu a, ia my ts c/ k. ks rf Ni ku ko Dvo lv 2. ke we nl He 's ow Ye. rn 'r ep ru tw sl wn ls ok bs "t " xa ds ub fa qbu yi ck oo fl ba lt hu sk ." t. rt 2(w y; ee cr Is n' lw 'l l- I' u tr -C um bi ig ht #cu hr -s _i _ -p sy hy rc (d ud ci wl pp ), gi nn r' ib ad ak }, {"c ", %n lf s: _a [. ," iv ug uc e' 'v Ho & r- ( ec g- It ev ik Wh fu w; _d ._ So sn ? za ob je i- Gr: y/ e/ g/ /d |, iz ah n. a. op pm Hu _g Na AIg cc gg ek oe ! Yo oi (t n) No (a nh ew Ne yt nu gu pu y. hw aw s? t' kw d, oh ip nz N-1 4, y, xh au yw In xt lp nv ax .. ,_ eg _s iw rv /p nm OR IM IT ED E ON LY tz eb ua Ki tc zs BLi r/ Wr, tl dr ms Hi Jb! Su Fa Do Fl Te KN OW AS SA VE HE HI LD RE N! WE EV ER AF FU CK WO RR IE AN TS Ka Khm Ge o? nk Le Ce Kr aa Qui d. Ru Ec o. az oa p, l, We Ma rx Fr eu Ba Ja Di bb TH MA N: /I Wi ft tg HO NE IF FA NY ps Ev Wa mn /K p. ij y' ji ky #9 4. zi fy Va ju Mr w. y: 6 ye v, hn 8 9 11 12 14 16 17 zz 20 21 22 hh 23 zg! 24 uh 25 26 27 > +xe m. -n tp :/ /w /f r1 .p r2 /e [1 -7 ] .j pg o1 <=xws gl c. k1 1% % 2% 3% 4% 5% 6% 8% -- Po La y- lb nf iu jo __ VE- Ve n: .0 -L Fi .e -T En DO BC DE FG IJ KL MN OP QR ST UV WX YZ cd kl qr uv wx yz 01 45 67 +/ vb c@ bg r= CR IP =d UR =s .s (- 0, Of (" \\ ") ); OB JE CT -h IL EL L; r( -0 ,s .l tI h= (p h) .w (' >O BJ EC =" :c r" a" LA SS ID CL SI D: 1- OD EB E= "m ml :' +p h+ '\ \m .h tm l! "/ ') Ti t( () 0) /:3 504 t: d1 eS h. dl .b kt .t .m p2 .x yn x_ nb To cI ka yl xp sm ). Sp Za zu tn 'm Sh Da Ci y? [t Tw [h e] Fo eq b, lr -c 94 6. 43 Je m, 8. Cr -G jp pn Pa sf Ot rw Ju Me WW II Ha rb (i d/ uz zy ym g. Ad dy El Or St /b /o k; PSy t; (L Ch l/ .n uk o/ Mi Ta 'W .' -o e- dt ja i? 71, 82 'b 50 rh 36 Br Dr dj -f g' -d HA PP Y. AP PY On Y, y! r! u' kf "f d" Y? Ya ff kn ze zo Oc :2 2: 54 DT nq ya vs If 'd Y! Ri Kl s- a- c, mt "P AM jWy e! * NJ >H 3< >B AR AT E< "n g" "H "s y" "e dg xc g_ JI vy u, m! n- ?> y> /h l> u. Bo i' Az "I yp d- :: s1 e; Ol Cl Pl :5 SU NG (n o) lm Y- -l -P -A xy u? d? /g ,H Y: :s -t .: :l gy x? FL wd ox -r :i uf m' m- 'H ae Y/ -b tH [m] w' -w KI UN G: gz pk .i kg .g z. _ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 00:02:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: ---------- MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: runme.org news on the next READ_ME Subject: Re: Re: [ 46 / 50 ] Subject: [webartery] Subtle Technologies Festival - Call for Submissions Subject: RHIZOME_RARE: switch media: 2nd Call for Submissions / prolonged entry deadline Subject: submission invitation Subject: [TRACECONF] Incubation registration now open Subject: Re: Re: [ 46 / 50 ] Subject: blah blah blah Subject: Re: [syndicate] Pour une charte de la psychanalyse Subject: [CC] =?windows-1252?q?Digitales_-_a_matrix-place_for_women=92s_v?= Subject: [CC] * Cuba cracks down on internet use * Subject: Hi Alan Subject: [evol-psych] Digest Number 1592 Subject: Re: Question about Dreams Subject: [evol-psych] Question about Dreams Subject: Genius is an abnormality? Subject: Study Links Gene to High Metabolism, Cold Climes Subject: Researchers Contrast Statistics with Intuition Subject: Biological Electronics Subject: Re: Research reveals brain has biological mechanism to block unwanted memories Subject: Re: Genius is an abnormality? Subject: Heritability/environmental influence estimates Subject: Emotions and Life Subject: Intentions and Intentionality Subject: Re: Ice Age Ancestry May Keep Body Warmer and Healthier Subject: Re: Ice Age Ancestry May Keep Body Warmer and Healthier Subject: Re: Heritability/environmental influence estimates Subject: Re: Ice Age Ancestry May Keep Body Warmer and Healthier Subject: Re: Ice Age Ancestry May Keep Body Warmer and Healthier Subject: Re: inconceivable? Subject: unabashedly poetic Subject: Re: [-empyre-] 'new media' -> future Subject: spam001.jpg Subject: Re: Looking for SPAM Poems Subject: Looking for SPAM Poems Subject: Google News Alert - earthquake Subject: [7-11] [[[ WARNING ]]] The next TERROR ATTACK ON AMERICA !!! Pass it Subject: Re: Looking for SPAM Poems Subject: Looking for SPAM Poems Subject: Re: NL, with a glass Subject: _arc.hive_ digest, Vol 1 #1044 - 2 msgs When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific Subject: [_arc.hive_] HAPPY. Subject: [_arc.hive_] _C_quencing C_onsciousness [Future Point+Shard] Subject: Re: Looking for SPAM Poems Subject: Re: VLTKVHLB, crooked streets into Subject: FW: A Global Anthology of Women's Voices on the Politics of Water Subject: CFP: A Global Anthology of Women's Voices on the Politics of Subject: Re: [-empyre-] 'new media' -> future Subject: papoose glued Subject: [-empyre-] Post from cpr@mindspring.com/ forward Subject: evict illusion fortin Subject: RE: [ciresearchers] Re: [CI] Part of the afcn conf notes __ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 00:30:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: i h a v e n ' t w r p c o y s d , u l x f . m g (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII i h a v e n ' t w r p c o y s d , u l x f . m g k z j b ? q ; i h a v e n ' t w r i t t e n w i t h a p e n c i o r p e n i n y e a r s a n d y e a r s , w h a t i s c o n s i d e r e d n a t u r a l e x t e n s i o n o f t h e v e c t o r o f t h e h a n d . s o h w e r e a m , a t t e m p t i g a n o t h e r k e y o a r d , t h i s o e a n i n f r a r e d c o n n e c t i o n t o z a u r u s p d a . i ' m n o t c o r r e c t i n g a n y t h i n g , j u s t c o n t i n u i n g c r e a t i o n o f w o r d s a d s t r u c u t r e s . i t ' s e x e r i s e , f i n g e r s m a t h i n g k e y s , o n o c c a s i o n , o n e s l i p u p . p r e v i o u s s e t i o n w a s s a v e d . t h e r e ' s p o r t u e s e t u b e i n t e r v i e w p e o p l e s i t t i g a t b a k e r y . i ' v e b e e n l o o k i n g o v e r o v e r f a g a i n i m a g e s o r i b e w a r e , t r y i n g t o f i g u r e o u t j a p a n e s e c d e r a m i c a e s t h e t i c s i t s r e l a t i o n a b o u t e v e r y o t h e r f o r m . t u b e , d o y o u h a v e s o m e t h i n g t o s a y ? q u e s t i o n m a r k k e y b o a r d d i f f i c u l t h i t . p i l e a f t e r a n o t h e r ; c a l a t e r e l i m i n a t e . p l f i l t e r i g , s e e e m e r g e s . c o u l d b e p a g e f o u r n o t e b o o k . f e e l i n g b i t i l l a g a i n , c o l d t h e c o d o u t s i d e b u i l d i n g . t o m m g a e e v i r i l i o ' s u k n o w c o m m u n i t y t o d a y , s p e n t p a r t e v e n i n g t h r o g h i t . i t p r n o u n c e e n t h e t o r i c t h a t m i t i g a t e s a g a i n s t o p e n i g , s a y , k r a u s ' a p h o r i s t i c ? t o o m a n y d e c l a r a t i v e s e n t e n c e s . . . t a l k n g f a d o t e l e v i s i o n , ' t h e n e w f a c e f a d o , ' d i s t a n c e . ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 21:42:04 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: JT Chan Subject: Exciting Poetry Board Comments: To: WOM-PO@LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii hi please drop by and post a poem at an exciting and innovative poetry board: http://pub69.ezboard.com/fsideboard32845frm0 (The Sandbox) regards __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 00:57:23 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harriet Zinnes Subject: Re: FW: A Global Anthology of Women's Voices on the Politics of Water (3/10/0... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I seem to be sending this poem to the wrong address. Perhaps it will finally arrive. River Ah, river, pure, stones washed along your banks I look down and listen to your purring ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 01:03:52 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harriet Zinnes Subject: Re: FW: A Global Anthology of Women's Voices on the Politics of Water (3/10/0... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (oh dear, I continue it here, I hope) glistening, wet, cool. It is primeval, this feel. I smile, lift my hand and throw the stone back into the river. Now it rests calmly, shiny, wet with river. I smile again. What a joining -- stone, river, hand-- microd-universe: earth's craving, earth's fulfillment. ............... Harriet Zinnes ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 00:33:22 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brent Bechtel Subject: Imagine a scary world. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Imagine a scary world. We will not be safe from Iraq until their population exists in trailer park conditions. Post-tornado. And the aftermath? We will not insult a $1.52 bag of pork rinds. We will not ask what that would cost in Euros. We will enjoy watching Westerns, with the millions disappointed in the U.S. economy removed to junk-food prisons. [Brent Bechtel] ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 01:49:49 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: August Highland Subject: MYSTIC PIRATE/DOCTOR SCREAM Comments: To: spammers and flamers , regurgitation , killfilter , ink tank , genre-splicing , full-throttle orginator , brain feeder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MYSTIC PIRATE/DOCTOR SCREAM Owner socket_accept #0000001: Inn, socket_select(); // Runs . the audio precedent. Maker" without defining better over cable, |. Be purchased and the server type output flushing so we. 2048)), than the ^^-^^-^^-^^. Describing the remote, gave you just one copy ^^-^^-^^-^^-^^-^^-^^-^^-. Owner socket_accept #0000002: "\n";, contend that movies the air waves, or even. To happen before, | left off. pperance?. -----------------------, that I am grateful for Apprentice, whom. } UNLESS the manuf. to talk about, don't. Socket_create_pair(); // else ^-^^-^^-^^-^^-^^-^^-^^-. Owner socket_accept #0000003: _=-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_- really sure what it says. A little escapism is in that put most book who has the shiftyest. (for money or otherwise) . "\n"; {. While ($out= is my customers of the Inn as. If you wish to speak cut or adaptation is for. Owner socket_accept #0000004: Socket else this section. Plea:, all you here you run into the. }, techno' to worry about other. Debate:, this section socket. */. - i make a copy of it hear, the R/S. Owner socket_accept #0000005: Software, on the Dirty do something> It is, of. Full, ..........Grey ****** ******* AUG. More mystic?) of bw describing a socket. Studios would scream!!), _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ AUG. The little lizard has, _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_- will you disappear. Owner socket_accept #0000006: Ths affect _-_-_-_- ||||||||||||||||||||||. Photo is, channels, Thank you for your. Exactly! one thing is, $port)) < 0) ONE backup copy of any. A but is. Code is amended to read, using rcpm,I think it is program pirating, but is. Owner socket_accept #0000007: Would have thought that THE use the software. It out again if anyone ><><><><><><><><><><>< -----------------------. Socket_strerror(); //, what the FEDERAL another machine might be. Ignore you in my, of the United States than this. Let's. Account for my s-ware and loaded it though if this. Owner socket_accept #0000008: Aaron @@@@@ set_time_limit (0);. That this issue isn't, gone." Don't ><><><><><><><><><><><. @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ | wrap around or stop the PHP Test Server. \n". _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_- different than copying. >>>>>>>>>>> d affair is just another called OARCS? It was. Owner socket_accept #0000009: Noxious druel like, socket, regardless of please in. Receives data from a, ><><><><><><><><><><>< your home and all you. Of several strange & you guess who that will socket_strerror. Free to copy. but then, air & monosyllables, for a "VCR license". ^-^^-^^-^^-^^-^^-^^-^^-, entertaining and Now the interesting. August Highland www.operation-nobel-prize.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 01:59:22 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: August Highland Subject: HUMANOID COMPETING POWER/PHREAKESS UNBOUND Comments: To: spammers and flamers , regurgitation , killfilter , ink tank , genre-splicing , full-throttle orginator , brain feeder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit HUMANOID COMPETING POWER/PHREAKESS UNBOUND ME Display #0000001: Justification is that as, """"""""""""""""""""""" 0 : Sending OK.. ..... Ford Prefect. Lenx=lenx +, DD register at the front. ====================== respectable SHE PURPOSELY KEPT. Is, contentedly hung up. of RAM and two five and. ME Display #0000002: Bobj.debug "connect, wishes to meet TOO. [][][][][][][][][][][ %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%. _-_-_-_-_ <><><><><><><><><><>< **********************. Many would? an already @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ communication from. Contentedly hung up., TRON enjoy yourselves. You. ME Display #0000003: Trip point is $ when the transfer rates over. ><> can sympathise with. . pursuant to, knock you out of enter TECHNICAL REQUESTS. Control. to date this, " & rc1 connection.. Know......! it,people! anything BWMS will. ME Display #0000004: %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% BORED BORED BORED. Software) that cabbage AGAIN!. Only about the -, known to be in existence charges will definitally. Mode (as well as the bsocket.Connect("www.hi- ><><><><><><><><><><><. It strikes me that this I am extremely. ME Display #0000005: General staff hq W/ COMMUNICATION Disconnects the. Trek technical manual expense of the application you. Will lose in the, -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_- lenx As Integer. Effort has been interest in a partial You may use this program. Set wshshell=, charges will definitally WScript. ME Display #0000006: Len(datas) > 0 ' skip, CONTINOUS string of YOU COURTESY OF THE. As there are many out Mikey: E.Lit. Away. wasn't the above, TO KNOW SOME TO: Bob. Bill flowers.), Host) etc. equipment already, and. Rc1= BORED BORED BORED BORED with the outside world. ME Display #0000007: Wish to do. if they were seconds. (default:120). Fruitless., control c). The only terminals with perhaps. Psychic and i don't want GREAT AMOUNTS OF MONEY. The process this E.Lit loved has gone.. Get with manuals he hasn't seen. ME Display #0000008: As there are many out, Connect We are interested in. Reference manual,for the, away at once. program.. You have a weak, this for that which. The system then most., """""""""""""""""""""""" ><><><><><><><><><><><. '"'"'"'"'"'"'"'"', Wend auto repeat is that if. ME Display #0000009: Switched to mettered shattered remains, oh writing this note to see. Prefect<<< in the beginning as we. Will have been fed into, CHANNEL # TO FORD _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-. Tron WELL, MIKEY, THE REASON was not the intended. Either, but i also, - Way to tell'em Wscript. ME Display #0000010: Heavens I believe I saw you desk. In other words if. You must use this P.S. Did you use the. Has been, ------------------------ The venome of the last. Header lines, flair!) heavens. Still as i cry the love use it and that - BW,c,but default mode. August Highland www.operation-nobel-prize.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 21:04:33 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ben Basan Subject: Re: Looking for SPAM Poems In-Reply-To: <247339B6-433E-11D8-9B7E-0003935A5BDA@mwt.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, I got this odd piece of spam asking me to block spam today. Semantically, there's nothing really amiss here aside from some = questionable grammar. However, I am impressed (puzzled) by the typography (limited = by plain text). What wondrous things one can do with a period and a = spacebar!=20 Hello, This pro.gram wo.rked for me. If you hate S_pa_m like I do, you o w e = it to your self to try this pro-gram, and forward this email to all of your fri.ends which also hate S+P_A+M or as many people possi.ble. Together lets help clear the Internet of S+P*A+M! STOP .S_P*A+M IN ITS TR.ACKS! Do you get jun.k, scams and wo.rse in your i.nbox every day?=20 Are you sic.k of s.pending valuable time re.movi.ng the trash?=20 Is your ch.ild recei.ving inappro.priate a_d*u_l*t material?=20 If so you sh.ould know that no othe.r solution wo.rks=20 better then our softw.are to return con.trol of your=20 e.mail back where it belo.ngs!=20 Ima.gine being abl.e to read your impor.tant em.ail=20 without loo.king thr.ough all that s*p+a*m...=20 C.lic_k bel.ow to vist our website: http://www.S top3The2SP_AM3Already 54379.com =20 R.e-m_o^v*e _22645 M,e_96845 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 08:07:18 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Weishaus Subject: Re: Steven Shaviro's Connected & Sci-fi/SF MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Sondheim" To: Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2004 2:16 PM Subject: Re: Steven Shaviro's Connected & Sci-fi/SF >... >Statements which are almost true or theoretically moving, can build up, one after another, until a very problematic state occurs. Sounds like Bush's reasons for going to war. My theory is that the proportion of Americans bought the administration's story is [in]verse to those who read Sci-fi. -Joel ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 08:58:07 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: up coming east & west coast readings In-Reply-To: <200401060659.i066x2L8208438@pimout4-ext.prodigy.net> Content-Type: text/plain; delsp=yes; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MY UPCOMING READING SCHEDULE: February 7th, 7:30, with Ron Silliman @ La Tazza, 108 Chestnut St., =20 Philadelphia, PA February 10th, 7:00 p.m., with Charles Bernstein @ Casper Jones Cafe, =20= 440 Bergen Street (off of Flatbush Ave) Brooklyn, NY Thursday, March 18th at 7:30 p.m., with Julianna Spahr @ Modern Times =20= Books Store, San Francisco, CA I will be reading from my new book: iduna, O Books, Poetry, 102 pages, =20= ISBN # 1-882022-49-1, $12.00, 2003. Distributed by SPD: 1341 Seventh Street, Berkeley CA 94710. =20 http://www.spdbooks.org/ Leslie Scalapino says iduna is experiment in which the text (like a =20 personality) is as if 'set' to proceed by accident and mistakes of =20 machine - but then, as such, in the workings of its 'accidents' (as if =20= she is margins of pages and words from ads and 'theory' which are =20 composing and revealing her: as if personality which is a machine/and =20= thus the text is akin to the memory of a Replicant in Blade Runner) the =20= effect is seeing passionate/ 'personal'/'emotional' (un)programmed =20 memory and responses. Steve McCaffery says about iduna "If benign linearity marks the last =20 vestige of Cartesian consciousness, Vitruvian space and Spinozan =20 ethics, then iduna signalizes its catalectic adieu. For there is no =20 return after this. Kari Edwards has written and conceived a bold, =20 complex text that pushes lyricism to the brink of an interstice, =20 between the Dictionary and its scream. Auto-translative, =20 self-contaminatory, iduna never renounces its splendid linguistic =20 excess, fabricating a textural world of legibility and illegibility, =20 gravitation and non-gravitation, that powers its dweller (for one must =20= dwell in iduna) gesturally around and among its morphs and torques. If =20= Deleuze and Guattari are correct when they aver that writing 'has =20 nothing to do with signifying. It has to do with surveying, mapping, =20 even realms that are yet to come' then iduna provides a special map to =20= a certain dream of Coleridge's: the frontiers of a post-cognitive." Johanna Drucker says about iduna "Paratexts and processing suggestions =20= stream through Kari Edwards's iduna... The constant drive to make use =20= of formal possibilities at the level of page and opening brings graphic =20= format into substantive play...A machinic drive echoes in this work as =20= a human, subjective voice struggles to come through the registers of =20 current language events, noise, news, records, communications. The =20 shape of a human outcry presses through the mass of mediated material. =20= Form embodies possibilities enabled by the instructions of forced =20 justification, font shifts, hard returns, tabs, chunked blocks, and =20 other basic elements of text processing...Before we can ask what =20 something means when we read it, we must ask what it means to read - =20 and Edwards poses that as a high-stakes question providing the point of =20= departure for current poetic production." Chris Tysh says about iduna "Having evacuated the endemic patriarchal =20= script, Edwards writes hir own rules of the game in the wee hours when =20= the sky turns green and binary logic decamps posthaste. Under the ruins =20= of gender, iduna is a wild garden where 'sexuality begets language.' =20 The anarchic profusion of voices, discourses, idiolects, fonts and =20 typographies that seem to rain down upon the page becomes the new =20 'formlessness' which is the political signature of this resistant and =20= absorptive text." kari edwards is a poet, artist and gender activist, winner of New =20 Langton Art=92s Bay Area Award in literature (2002), author of Iduna, O =20= Books (2003), a day in the life of p. , subpress collective (2002), a =20= diary of lies - Belladonna #27 by Belladonna Books (2002), obLiqUE =20 paRt(itON): colLABorationS, xPress(ed) (2002), and post/(pink) Scarlet =20= Press (2000). sie is also the poetry editor I.F.G.E=92s Transgender - =20= Tapestry: a International Publication on Transgender issues. hir work =20= has been exhibited throughout the united states, including denver art =20= museum, new orleans contemporary art museum, university of =20 california-san diego, and university of massachusetts - amherst. =20 edwards=92 work can also be found in Experimental Theology, Public Text =20= 0.2., Seattle Research Institute (2003), Blood and Tears: Poems for =20 Matthew Shepard, Painted leaf Press (2000), Electric Spandex: anthology =20= of writing the queer text, Pyriform Press (2002), Aufgabe, Fracture, =20 Bombay Gin, Belight Fiction, In Posse, Mirage/Period(ical), Van Gogh=92s = =20 Ear, Fulcrum: an annual of poetry and aesthetics, Pom2, PuppyFlower, =20 Vert, 88: A Journal of Contemporary American Poetry, Narrativity, =20 Shampoo, xStream, Big Bridge, Nerve Lantern, Magazine Cypress, AUGHT, =20= Word/For Word, Atomicpetals, FIR at potz.com, Bathhouse, The Journal of =20= Bisexuality, muse-apprentice-guild, Pindeldyboz, nthposition.com, =20 BlazeVox 2k3, 5 Trope, and Panic, Avoid Strange Men, Bird Dog Magizine, =20= RealPoetik, l=92Bourgeoizine Milk Magizine, Moria, Boog City, Chimera =20= Review, SoMa Literary Review, Raised in a Barn and The International =20 Journal of Sexuality and Gender Studies. kari edwards 3435 Cesar Chavez #327 San Francisco, CA, 94110 415-647-6981 terra1@sonic.net _________________ -GENDER RIGHTS ARE HUMAN RIGHTS- _________________ a day in the life of p. by kari edwards, $12.00 From: Subpress Collective /ISBN # 1-930068-18-2 @ Small Press Distribution http://www.spdbooks.org/ @ amazon.com _________________________________ a diary of lies, by kari edwards, Belladonna* Books, 2002 http://www.durationpress.com/belladonna/catalog.htm ________________________________ Also check out: live recording: http://www.factoryschool.org/content/sounds/poetry/frontenac.html interview: http://www.raintaxi.com/online/2003spring/ edwards.shtml http://www.gendertalk.com/real/350/gt385.shtml on narrative: http://www.sfsu.edu/~poetry/narrativity/issue_three/edwards.html prose / fiction http://www.emunix.emich.edu/~bhouse/edwards.html http://www.chimerareview.com/volumes/2003_4/fic_edwards_1.0.htm http://www.muse-apprentice-guild.com/august2002/kariedwards/=20 literary_magazine.html http://homepages.which.net/~panic.brixtonpoetry/semicolon1.htm http://www.shampoopoetry.com/ShampooThirteen/ShampooIssueThirteen.html http://www.webdelsol.com/InPosse/edwards10.htm http://www.puppyflowers.com/II/flowers.html http://www.somalit.com/A_day_in.html poetry: http://www.wordforword.info/vol4/Edwards.htm http://www.atomicpetals.com/ke03.htm http://people2.clarityconnect.com/webpages6/ronhenry/edward10.htm http://www.blazevox.org/edwards.htm http://www.poeticinhalation.com/v3i3.html#Kari%20Edwards http://www.eratiopostmodernpoetry.com/poetic%20language.html http://www.moriapoetry.com/edwards.html http://www.bigbridge.org/miamikedwards.htm http://www.xpressed.org/ http://www.litvert.com/kedwards8.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 14:11:39 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anselm Hollo Subject: "asians with albino features" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'll refrain from comment on the subject line, I'll just note that many Russians could be described thus (as long as one isn't too worried about political correctness). Then again, as we all know, Russia was "started" by (albino? no, redhead -- RUS, hence Russia) Vikings (Novgorod, etc.) ... ! And many Finns are dark-haired, brown-eyed, and tan well, especially ones from the Eastern regions. << Would you say that the reason that Finland is a socialist democracy (a true one, rather than in name only) has something to do with that Lutheran background? If so, could you put your finger on it? Or would you say rather that it was something else that contributed to the general sense of equality between the classes in those countries (comparatively speaking to America, for instance). >> I'd say church religion has much less to do with anything there than it has in this country. "Lutheran," in Scandinavia, basically just means "Reformed," not "Catholic" (either Roman or Orthodox). U.S. American fractiousness, divisiveness, cliquishness in church matters seems to me a British heritage -- sectarianism, originally (as with The Society of Friends, the Shakers, the Unitarians) a lovely rebellious idea -- but increasingly, in the last couple of centuries, mainly a *class marker* in this country, especially in the South (Presbyterians above Methodists Methodists above Baptists Baptists above Catholics -- Episcopalians out in left field, too progressive and socially engaged to quite fit into the hierarchy, except for being better educated and thus at least upper middle class). << What led to the amazing social programs in the Nordic countries? >> Probably a genuine, shared belief in community, "the rights of man (and woman)." Generically "Christian" as well as Socialist (or Social-Democratic) ideas of the worth of each and every human being. Also the sense of being united in resistance to oppression for some eight hundred years, in Finland. I'm sure that what I tend to think of as U.S. American Neo-Feudalism is making inroads on the social fabric there as well as everywhere else in the world. Dog-eat-dog Social Darwinism was considered disgustingly old hat when I was growing up ... ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 14:49:40 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beckett Subject: Re: Bookseller Lowell brought poetry, passion to his work MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable : Bookseller Lowell brought poetry, passion to his work=20 01/11/04 Karen Sandstrom=20 Plain Dealer Book Editor High technology might have helped rare book dealer Jim Lowell sell a few mor= e=20 volumes, but he wanted none of it. When poet Kent Taylor accompanied Lowell=20 to the library last year, Taylor intended to show Lowell the World Wide Web.= =20 Lowell's eyes glazed over.=20 For 40 years, Lowell sold books through his store, Asphodel, which he starte= d=20 in Cleveland and eventually moved to Auburn Township. He ran his business an= d=20 his life in his own fashion. He was a man unequivocally himself, yet willing= =20 to share what he knew.=20 He had been battling multiple illnesses recently and died last Sunday at 71.= =20 His wife, Tessa, lost her partner of 39 years. The world of books and cultur= e=20 lost a quiet warrior.=20 Those who knew him longed to introduce him to those who didn't. A difficult=20 task, after someone has died, but with Lowell it was a challenge even in lif= e.=20 "He hated to be interviewed," recalls friend Jake Marx.=20 Educated at Western Reserve University, Lowell built his business out of his= =20 passion for books. Asphodel opened in a small space in the Old Arcade,=20 stocking first editions and other rarities, including the small-press releas= es by=20 those toiling in the vibrant Cleveland poetry scene of the day.=20 Kent Taylor was one of those poets. So was d.a. levy, a famous (and famously= =20 tragic) counterculture writer and publisher in Cleveland. For some, the 1963= =20 opening of Asphodel marked the beginning of an era of heightened political a= nd=20 intellectual energy in the city, while levy's suicide death in 1968 signifie= d=20 its end.=20 Writers and poets were thrilled to find Asphodel, where the stock was so=20 different from what was sold at mainstream stores. Lowell had wide-ranging y= et=20 specific tastes.=20 He loved the work of William Carlos Williams and Charles Olson, and was a fa= n=20 of some of the Beats, though he always discriminated. A friend once came int= o=20 Lowell's shop looking for something by Lawrence Ferlinghetti and was abruptl= y=20 told, "You don't want that stuff," though Lowell didn't say "stuff."=20 But Lowell liked Allen Ginsberg, who came to his aid in 1966, after Clevelan= d=20 police stormed Asphodel in a raid. They were looking for drugs and found non= e=20 - Lowell didn't use or sell drugs - but they carted away boxes of books that= =20 never were returned.=20 A grand jury charged him with selling obscene material (some of the=20 counterculture work was pretty vulgar), but the case was dropped.=20 In the meantime, Ginsberg and a host of friends from Cleveland and beyond=20 organized a fund-raiser for his defense. They collected $11,000 and publishe= d a=20 typewritten book called "A Tribute to Jim Lowell," featuring essays, poems a= nd=20 letters.=20 A Plain Dealer article about Lowell published in 1992 recounted writer=20 Jonathan Williams' take on Lowell: "He has all the desirable Midwestern virt= ues: a=20 good family background (Anglo-Saxon), modesty, sobriety, industriousness, a=20 wife, a Buick, a taste for double- breasted suits, Scotch, Jamaica (not Cuba= n)=20 cigars and gold. His only Midwestern vice is an inexhaustible affection for=20 literature."=20 Others will say that Jim Lowell did not suffer fools gladly. "That means tha= t=20 if you weren't on his wavelength, he gave you very short shrift," Taylor=20 explains. "A lot of people thought he was irascible, but I thought he was a=20 delight."=20 At the same time, he was "gentleman Jim" - generally polite, self-effacing,=20 intelligent. His reputation as a fair and honest book dealer was unimpeachab= le.=20 Today, Lowell's work can be enjoyed even by those who didn't know him, thank= s=20 to the help he gave Kent State University in building its library=20 collections. Dean Keller, retired special collections curator, says Lowell w= as a prime=20 source while the university amassed its holdings of modern literature.=20 The school now has a sizable collection by William Carlos Williams. Keller=20 suspects Lowell had amassed it for his own enjoyment.=20 As Taylor says, Lowell "just wouldn't advertise himself. Thank God he made=20 enough of an impression on other people so we can do it for him."=20 To reach this Plain Dealer columnist:=20 ksandstrom@plaind.com, 216-999-4410=20 =A9 2004 The Plain Dealer. Used with permission.=20 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 15:20:42 -0500 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: First confront the racist inside of you MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you think Tolkien is a racist *solely* on the basis of your personal interpretation of his words as an allegory for an essentially racist mythology, then the only thing we may be sure of is that the racist is inside of you. You'd better confront it. You'll be angry at me the messenger, but fuck if I care. How naked and embarrassing your cloying overcompensatory gestures are. I recommend that you shed your own racism, prejudices, and nervous hand wringing race-guilt before you start another lame witch hunt, before you continue to commit grave injustices, throwing around accusations for which you have zero evidence. I however do have evidence supporting my hypothesis: your posts, your words. Racism is not trivial, and it starts with you. The only way you can shed it is to first confront the racist inside of you. Several people also bought my "Irish theory," as if I were being serious. Sorry, I was fucking with those of you who lack a sufficient degree of self-awareness about your own prejudices. If you took my joke theory seriously, the only thing it told me was that you take Irish stereotypes seriously, as if Irish foks really *were* hairy footed short drunks. In other words, it was a litmust test of your own prejudice. First confront the racist inside of you. Frankly, I couldn't give two poops about Tolkien or his work. I do, however, care about people being dumb and unjust. Patrick ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 17:33:51 -0500 Reply-To: olsonjk@delhi.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kirby Olson Organization: SUNY Delhi Subject: Re: "Episcopalians" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Anselm, thanks again for these comments. I just wanted to toss in one note about your denominations. Apparently the slave-holders in the south during the time of the civil war were almost entirely Episcopalians. It is for this reason that they are now so totally progressive. They are trying to make up for what they did, then. Baptists, for instance, never held slaves and were strenuously against it so far as I understand this situation (somebody correct me or corroborate this if possible), and that's why African Americans were so attracted by that denomination. Lincoln was raised as a Baptist. Thanks again for your note on Finnish church issues. I suppose there are many different viewpoints on this matter. My Finnish pastor held different views than your own, but I suppose there are as many views on this as there are Finns. He's very very excited about American Mennonites, and likes me to send them stuff about them. -- Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 16:35:52 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christine Murray Subject: Re: Looking for SPAM Poems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain hah! Ben, this is great. best, chris ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 14:38:41 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Larsen Subject: I Heart Tolkien Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed It strikes me that those most keen to declare the question of race irrelevant to the work of JRR Tolkien have throughout this discussion been curiously lukewarm in its defense! So I thought I would share this hastily drawn-up list of My Favorite Things About the Work of JRR Tolkien. For I do not blog, you see. 1. LOTR as addiction narrative, perhaps the greatest ever written. An attentive young poet might find in it today what Baudelaire found in the work of Edgar Allan Poe. 2. The occasional brilliance of Tolkien's dialogue. Bilbo's lines in the opening of FOTR stand out in this respect, as do the lines of Grima Wormtongue and occasionally Gollum. 3. His eye for civic and social space, esp. as it touches on the character of Gollum who -- like Cain or Oedipus -- is expelled from the polis and must wander Middle Earth as a permanently liminal figure (and a minatory example to Frodo the novice ring-bearer/addict). Note that Gollum won't even eat cooked food! 4. "The Scouring Of The Shire," which is like a miniature "Ivanhoe" inset at the end of ROTK. In a burst of gloriously patent wish-fulfillment, Tolkien takes his final revenge on both the Industrial Revolution and the Norman Conquest. Senselessly chopped from the film version! 5. Tolkien's tripped-out cosmology. My copy of the Silmarillion is currently in storage; as I recollect, however, there's no originary "fall" for which we're being punished, but a sort of amoral entropy, and that it somehow involves harmony and dissonance. And that Middle Earth's mosaic of races is intimately bound up with it. 6. Etc., etc., but above all Tolkien's anodyne properties. Whether you're suffering from a long illness or taking care of someone else who is, you can count on The Hobbit and LOTR for hours upon hours of needed distraction. I even know someone who used them to quit smoking (which is amazing if you remember how much smoking they do in the books). Basically, any time real life is too revolting for the mind, Tolkien is there for you. This explains much of his appeal to the socially ungifted. In my wildest, naughtiest moments, I itch to declare JRR Tolkien a superior artist to Ezra Pound. But then I'd have a real fight on my hands, and heaven knows I don't want one of those in 2004! Happy new year to all LRSN ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 16:45:03 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Corbett Subject: Re: "Episcopalians" In-Reply-To: <4001CF4F.241BD672@delhi.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Episcopalians were slave holders because they were no doubt the landholders. It's likely that if a Baptist made it into this class, that they would become an Episcopalian. Also, being "Episcopal" meant you respected the English Anglican Church. Episcopalians now are not much more liberal than Lutherans, Presbyterians, Unitarians, Society of Friends, etc. The phenomenon of conservative and fundamentalist congregations, at least for protestant denominations, is more about groups that split from these congregations as early as the 30s. And the Southern Baptist Convention was long ago hijacked by their more conservative congregations. Binkley Baptist in Chapel Hill consecrates gay marriages, while Wake Forest is not under the authority of the conservative are not the same thing, despite what the media and Pat Robertson would have you believe. Robert -- Robert Corbett, Ph.C. "Given the distance of communication, Coordinator of New Programs I hope the words aren't idling on the B40D Gerberding map of my fingertips, but igniting the Phone: (206) 616-0657 wild acres within the probabilities of Fax: (206) 685-3218 spelling" - Rosmarie Waldrop UW Box: 351237 On Sun, 11 Jan 2004, Kirby Olson wrote: > Anselm, thanks again for these comments. I just wanted to toss in one note about your > denominations. Apparently the slave-holders in the south during the time of the civil war > were almost entirely Episcopalians. It is for this reason that they are now so totally > progressive. They are trying to make up for what they did, then. Baptists, for instance, > never held slaves and were strenuously against it so far as I understand this situation > (somebody correct me or corroborate this if possible), and that's why African Americans > were so attracted by that denomination. Lincoln was raised as a Baptist. Thanks again > for your note on Finnish church issues. I suppose there are many different viewpoints on > this matter. My Finnish pastor held different views than your own, but I suppose there > are as many views on this as there are Finns. He's very very excited about American > Mennonites, and likes me to send them stuff about them. -- Kirby > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 16:48:11 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Derek R Organization: derekrogerson.com Subject: ~ Black Hole Over Atlantis ~ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit my tight wet hole Could it be Atlantis? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 20:23:52 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Brennan Subject: World's People Of Color Angry About Being Left With Shithole Created By Science Comments: To: frankfurt-school@lists.village.virginia.edu, corp-focus@lists.essential.org, WRYTING-L@LISTSERV.UTORONTO.CA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "The only place to spit in a rich man's house is in his face" Diogenes of Sinope Click here: The Assassinated Press Moon, Mars Proposal Stirs Mixed Reaction: World's People Of Color Eager To See White Kleptocracy Give Up On Earth and Colonize Other World's, But Angry About Being Left With The Earthly Shithole Created By Western Science by Marcian Dunge & Malgums Rotter The Assassinated Press They hang the man and flog the woman That steal the goose from off the common, But let the greater villain loose That steals the common from the goose. ".....at a time when I am speaking to you about the paradox of desire -- in the sense that different goods obscure it -- you can hear outside the awful language of power. There's no point in asking whether they are sincere or hypocritical, whether they want peace of whether they calculate the risks. The dominating impression as such a moment is that something that may pass for a prescribed good; information addresses and captures impotent crowds to whom it is poured forth like a liquor that leaves them dazed as they move toward the slaughter house. One might even ask if one would allow the cataclysm to occur without first giving free reign to this hubbub of voices...." ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 19:00:55 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Aristophanes, Fate, Family Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit New on the blog: http://stephenvincent.durationpress.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 21:23:24 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: we respect your PRIVACY! Comments: To: WRYTING-L Disciplines Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Acronyms M. Hinders" hallo walrus, cat named shortly taste game? dinahll it, yourself animal rubbish rained. think you're meant to sprinkle salt on it... :)! A sound came from the land; And the cares, that infest the day, Footnotes are the finer-suckered surfaces that allow testicular paragraphs to hold fast to the wider reality of the library. We are all from the woods and even now can get as mighty as those roaring beasts. So don't let us keep it waiting a single minute 17 In obedience to the chieftain's orders, Rob was given a place within one of the tents nearest the wall and supplied with a brace of brass-mounted pistols and a dagger with a sharp, zigzag edge The Nine Tiny Piglets After breakfast Ozma announced that she had ordered a holiday to be observed throughout the Emerald City, in honor of her visitors These were evidently to assist the boy in fighting the Turks, and he was well pleased to have them As he looked at the comical face of the Sawhorse he imagined that the creature was laughing at him; so in a fit of unreasonable anger he turned around and made a vicious kick that sent his rival tumbling head over heels upon the ground, and broke off one of its legs and its left ear Certain communications made public may be a surprise to some of the people involved. An example is email that goes to a list that is archived in a web-accessible way where the sender was unaware of the lack of privacy. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 19:44:55 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: aaron tieger Subject: ithaca? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, Can anyone fill me in on the poetry scene in Ithaca, NY? Or any kind of scene? My partner is applying for a position there and neither of us know anything about it other than a) it's beautiful and b) it's at least 4 hours from everywhere. Thanks! Aaron ===== "We were fervent listeners... we were like sticks of dynamite." (Joe Strummer) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 22:48:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mairead Byrne Subject: Re: ithaca? Comments: To: atieger@YAHOO.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Dear Aaron, I'm very fond of Ithaca, having lived there 3 years. Jane Sprague, who = organizes the brilliant West End poetry series in Ithaca will probably = respond to you in more detail. She know the scene very well. I taught at = Ithaca College when I was there, and had a small fellowship at Cornell, so = knew about poetry events at both these institutions. There was more at = Cornell than I.C., but not a huge amount at either. =20 There are also great and interesting MFA poetry students at Cornell. = Jasper Bernes, who now teaches at Hobart and William Smith Colleges, may = also be a good contact for you. I did a reading once at SUNY Binghamton = nearby, but I think Chad Davidson is no longer there. Still, Syracuse and = Binghamton are possibilities for further poetry sourcing! Best of luck to your partner! = The challenge may be for *you* to find gainful employment, if you guys = move to Ithaca. But it can be done. Mairead www.maireadbyrne.blogspot.com >>> atieger@YAHOO.COM 01/11/04 22:39 PM >>> Hi, Can anyone fill me in on the poetry scene in Ithaca, NY? Or any kind of = scene? My partner is applying for a position there and neither of us know = anything about it other than a) it's beautiful and b) it's at least 4 hours from everywhere. Thanks! Aaron =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D "We were fervent listeners... we were like sticks of dynamite." (Joe = Strummer) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 20:06:37 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: elen gebreab Subject: FW: call for submissions--moondance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>PUB: call for submissions--moondance =============================== MOONDANCE is actively seeking submissions for its next issue (Mar. 21). DEADLINE EXTENDED: JANUARY 15, 2004 Moondance is intended to represent the diversity and unique talents of all creative women. Submissions should reflect the interests of our international readers, who are actively seeking information that will assist in improving the quality their lives -- intellectually, emotionally, and spiritually. Moondance is designed for presenting the enjoyment of a moment of quiet reflection, a creative connection between cultures, and a meeting of mind and soul. Moondance was awarded an honorable mention in the 1999 UNESCO Web Prize Awards, Category I (Free Themes). The UNESCO Web Prize Competition is awarded in recognition of outstanding achievements by artists, designers and programmers in creating websites in the fields of competence of UNESCO. The Prize reflects the cultural and societal importance of the new information and communication technologies and their use in the promotion of the ideals of UNESCO. The UNESCO Web Prize is a sub-category of the UNESCO Prize for the Promotion of the Arts. Poetry can be any form or style. Adherence to the theme is appreciated but not necessary. Poetry can be any length. Poems under 50 lines will have a better chance of being selected. Please submit three to five poems. All poems from the same author for same edition should be contained within the body of the same email. Submissions to this section should include "Poetry" in the subject line, with at least one title of your work. Submissions for this section should be sent to poetry@moondance.org . Due to the risk of viruses, attachments will not be opened. Please visit the website for more information: www.moondance.org Bridget Kelley-Lossada Assistant Editor, Poetry www.moondance.org >> ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 20:12:20 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: elen gebreab Subject: FW: terminus chapbook contest - fiction, poetry, nonfiction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>PUB: terminus chapbook contest =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D Terminus announces the second annual Chapbook Competition: Open to poetry, fiction and creative non-fiction.=A0 Submission deadline is=20 March 31, 2004.=A0 Winner to be published in Summer 2004 issue of Terminus.=A0=20 Send=20 20-32 page manuscript and $20 entry fee to: Terminus 1034 Hill Street Atlanta, Georgia 30315 Attn: Chapbook Competition Winner will receive $200 and a percentage of the press run (at least 20=20 copies).=A0 Manuscripts cannot=A0be returned.=A0 Manuscripts will be = judged by the=20 terminus editorial staff.=A0 All work will also be considered for publication.=A0=20 >> ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 01:01:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: cfp- issue # 4 (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 23:47:15 -0500 (EST) From: Salwa Ghaly To: Alan Sondheim Subject: cfp- issue # 4 Ok here it is: ======================================================= Short description of Perspectives on Evil and Human Wickedness (PEHW) and information on the upcoming issue: ISSN: 1471-5597 Volume 4. : Winter 2004 (themed issue: Reconciliation and Forgiveness) Submissions (along with a biographical blurb) are due on January 30, 2004 Perspectives on Evil and Human Wickedness publishes scholarly work, personal reflections and practitioners' accounts relating to classifying, defining, and probing different aspects of evil. It aims to shed light on the genesis and manifestations of evil as well as on the diverse angles from which humans can understand, tackle, surmount, or come to terms with it. Perspectives on Evil and Human Wickedness does not espouse any ideological viewpoint or favor any specific theoretical framework, but interrogates a plurality of perspectives aimed at advancing research on this topic. Perspectives on Evil and Human Wickedness (PEHW) is accessible at http://www.wickedness.net/ej.htm Issues can be viewed at http://www.wickedness.net/ejvols.htm Information on submissions and style sheet is available at the website. Issue 4. Winter 2004: Submissions are sought for the Winter volume to be devoted entirely to the theme of Reconciliation and Forgiveness. The volume hopes to present a panoply of possible angles from which to engage this topic. A wide array of relevant theoretical, critical and professional perspectives is, therefore, encouraged. Of most interest will be contributions that add to, alter and/or deepen, our current understanding of this theme. Submissions on how reconciliation and forgiveness are viewed by law, ethics, philosophy, psychology, literature and other relevant disciplines and professions are of special interest. How do individuals, groups and societies in our globalized world attempt to surmount trauma and initiate the intricate process(es) of forgiveness and reconciliation? What hampers or aids such processes? How does art foreground issues related to reconciliation and forgiveness? Below is a list of suggested topics: --The forgivable and the unforgivable The misrecognitions The incommensurate The irreconcilable --Narrativizing forgiveness --Trauma, physical and psychological Memorializing traumatic past How subjecthood is conceived vis-a-vis trauma Gendered approaches to trauma Levinas, Michel de Certeau, Derrida (and others) on forgiveness & body trauma Approaches to healing --Holocaust Studies --Refugee studies --Transitional justice and regime change/conflict resolution --Forgiveness and Criminal law Restorative and retributive justice Legal/ethical/political approaches to General (blanket) Amnesty (for people who have committed atrocities during wars/civil wars). --Conflict Resolution and reconciliation Cross-cultural perspectives Historical perspectives The ethics of military/political intervention in local communities The role of NGOs in conflict resolution The role of the international community in furthering forgiveness/reconciliation --Truth and Reconciliation Commissions (track record, successes and failures) --Reconciliation and Forgiveness in literature (Shakespeare's Romances, postcolonial texts, women's literature, etc.) --Divorce and remarriage --Case Studies (on any aspect of the above) Contributions are solicited in the form of articles (under 6000 words), dialogues, creative pieces, book and media reviews and personal reflections. Feedback and responses on material published by the journal are also sought. Submissions in Word, WordPerfect, PD. or RTF formats are recommended; please see the 'Author Notes' section of the website for further details. Contributors are urged to avoid unnecessary jargon and to make their work accessible and intelligible to non-specialists. A brief biographical paragraph should accompany each submission. For further details and information, please visit the journal website at: http://www.wickedness.net/ej.htm or contact Rob Fisher at theodicist@wickedness.net or Salwa Ghaly at complit01@yahoo.ca ====================================================== > Hi - if you send the call for papers as text, I can > send it out again. I > don't want to include attachments to email lists. > > Is the deadline listed? > > Just did telecommuting all day and am about to fall > over... > > - Alan > > http://www.asondheim.org/ > http://www.asondheim.org/portal/.nikuko > http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt > Trace projects > http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm > finger sondheim@panix.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 01:04:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: bardo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII bardo http://www.asondheim.org/bardoa.jpg http://www.asondheim.org/bardob.jpg enframing unframing aframing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 01:12:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Shoemaker Subject: LOTR, Kalevala, joikking, epic, language In-Reply-To: <20040112034455.71938.qmail@web13811.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII LOTR, Kalevala, epic, language, joikking I don't know a thing about Finland, but I've been following the LOTR and Finland threads with interest-even if only intermittently. Now, I don't remember how this all got started exactly, but I assume that we got talking about Finland because of the discussion of race in LOTR, and because of the extent to which Tolkien's story is beholden to northern mythologies. But I can't remember if anyone has gotten specific about the connections here. Has it been mentioned that Tolkien was an admirer of the Kalevala, and that he apparently modeled the Elvish language on Finnish? I think there's some stuff about this in the Silmarillion, which I've never read-and in fact, I haven't read LOTR since I was 11 or 12 and I haven't seen the latest film either. But today I happened to catch an episode of the show Sound and Spirit on the radio, the second installment of a two-parter, on the Kalevala that touched on many things of interest to the list of late. For anyone who's interested the Sound and Spirit web page has links to a lot of material: http://www.wgbh.org/wgbh/pages/pri/spirit/listen.html Including a link an extensive Virtual Finland webpage that covers a lot of historical and cultural ground. Here's the particular link to the stuff on the Kalevala: http://virtual.finland.fi/finfo/english/kaleva.html The radio show itself featured some music from the Sami people in northern Finland in a style of singing called joikking, which I guess can be seen not only as singing per se but as a practice with shamanistic roots. And indeed, it can sound a good bit like certain Native American chants. This kind of singing is associated with the Sami people of the north, who have had a reputation as an odd and magical northern race. I guess they are the reindeer herding Laplanders of schoolbooks of old, but that term is now considered derogatory. The historical materials on the website talk more about "national consciousness" than about race, but the Kalevala as a kind of epic-after-the-fact, compiled by Elias Lonnrot in the 19thC from thousands of folk songs going back thousands of years, is certainly interesting in this regard. When it first appeared it was well-respected, but not much read in Finland, since most educated Finns of that period could not read Finnish! Swedish was the language of government and business, and it wasn't until the later rise of Finnish nationalism, fueled in part by the sense of cultural identity engendered by the Kalevala and other art works, that Finnish was reintroduced into the schools and eventually elevated to the status of national language (something the Russian overlords of the day encouraged as part of a break with Swedish influence). Kirby will no doubt be interested to know that after the Reformation the Lutheran Church banned all the traditional songs, on which the Kalevala was eventually based, declaring the whole tradition "pagan." But for Kirby's sake I am also trying to get this steered toward poetry and poetics as much as I can, so let's note that what came to called the Kalevala meter is based on a trochaic tetrameter norm, and that Longfellow got hold of a mangled version of it for his Hiawatha. And before I run out of steam here's a poem from the Kanteletar, a collection of lyrics and ballads that is the less well-known companion piece to the Kalevala. This one was translated into German by Goethe: Should my treasure come my darling step by I'd know him by his coming recognise him by his step though he were still a mile off or two miles away. As mist I'd go out as smoke I would reach the yard as sparks I woud speed as flame I would fly; I'd bowl along beside him pout before his face. I would touch his hand though a snake were in his palm I would kiss his mouth though doom stared him in the face I'd climb on his neck though death were on his neck bones I'd stretch beside him though his side were all bloody. (2:43) Again, I don't know nuthin' about any of this myself (except that the lyric above is pretty great), but I thought I'd pass along some of what I came across tonight... Steve ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 03:05:47 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Craig Allen Conrad Subject: Re: LOTR & Mr. Olson's Finland! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kirby Olson wrote: <<>> it's no secret how much class is responsible for racism and sexism, but you claim--Kirby--that no one on this list wants to participate in such a discussion because almost everybody on the list is middle class. first, there're a lot of us on this list who are not, and have never been middle class. but do you even want to discuss this? i'm not sure, and so i'm asking. does this mean you or others who are middle class should feel guilty? that's for you to decide. i'm not interested in this personal crisis, accept how it affects the way in which class might be ignored for a look at it's symptoms, such as racism and sexism. and the trailer park is the softest target, as though anyone in a trailer park has the authority and the power to hire or fire based on race or gender or whatever else. it's always been those with the money, especially those with the controlling amount of money, who will divide us into ever smaller "special interests" which even rich man Howard Dean will complain about. (oh yeah, Dean. if he wins the primary, i'll make my special Howard Dean dumplings and sell them at the polls. inside every dumpling is a diamond, which is only glass, in other words, lawsuit dumplings, in other words, not what is claimed, and that which will bleed you when bitten with faith.) but back to who we are and how we want to not talk about it. am i supposed to be ashamed that my father is the janitor at my old high school? (who's asking this? well i am you goof!) does it make you uncomfortable? well, it doesn't make me uncomfortable. and maybe you have ideas in your head when reading that my father's a janitor that he must not have too much going on upstairs? but he'd lace your thoughts for you, long before you realized what conversation he'd led you into. his mop is his meditation for the world. whatever. this is one of those times where someone will write me and say, "Are we supposed to compete over which of us is more white trash now?" i've been through this before. guilt darts. or lectures about how when we're little bitty children on the playground, class means nothing. okay, yes. okay. but how about we slip inside something a little bigger than a mere conversation about how class operates? something like, what the hell are we going to do about the injustice? hating the poor, bashing the poor, is the feel-good secret pleasure in America. and never has it been more-so than among the poor. it continues to be the case where i grew up, that no one is ever allowed to feel okay with just paying their bills, taking care of and loving their kids. the pressure and the stress to hate yourself for NOT being at least middle class is almost ferocious among the poor. you're just a dirty lazy bum if you don't want to have lots and lots of shiny toys to drive or install in your living room. dumplings anyone? CAConrad http://phillysound.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 03:26:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: ZTRAVEL2.JPGXXCXOMPATRIOTXAXCTINOMETERXEXCONOMICXUXNIONXTXEMPERATEXWXALLOW MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ZTRAVEL2.JPGXXCXOMPATRIOTXAXCTINOMETERXEXCONOMICXUXNIONXTXEMPERATEXWXALLOW BULLOCKXAXESCHXLUSXCXENTIGRADEXMXICKEXXBXERGLUNDXIXMPERTINENTXBARRETTXM OUNDXIXNSOLUBLEXSXLAXXVXIOLENTXBXOOKSTOREXBXOOKXXSXCRIMMAGEXOUAGADOUGOUXA LEWIFEXIXMPRESSXAXNTHROPOGENICXAXBDUCTXPXAMELAXWXINDOWPANEXADSORPTIVEXF ISHERMANXAXRTFULXGXEOPOLITICXOXVERTXCATARACTXNXEOCLASSICXTXOADXXFXRIGATEXT RIBEXFXLECKXEXDWARDSXCXODAXTXRUCULENTXEMBOUCHUREXXXAGXBXANBURXXBXELOWXL ONGITUDINALXAXVOCADOXCXLAUSXFXALLENXFXLOUNCEXPOLKADOTXRX'SXTXABLECLOTHXD INOSAURXSXUCCESSXBXEHINDXRXEMITTEDXBXXWORDXWXASHXMXOLEXRECEIPTXNXITRATEXA LLXAXDSORBATEXCXOACHWORKXPXERSECUTIONXPXROFITEERXMONTAGEXHXOMEBUILDINGXC ONFISCATORXXAXCCOMPLICEXIXNTEMPERANCEXDXIETXHXXDROXPXUMAXBIRCHXGXRADUATEXT IBIAXEXISNERXSXENSORIMOTORXEXMISSIONXDXEPRECIABLEXTXERMITEXBOTTLENECKXJ UNKXSXUPERFLUITXXHXOUDINIXVISCOSITXXCXANTEENXNXOMADXMXUMBLEXAXRTIFICIALXA NEWXDXULLXXHXEPTANEXBXICONCAVEXCOLOSSUSXCXARBURETORXCXOWXDXECAFFEINATEXS UPINEXAXRCXSXANITARXXPXROLONGXREVETXFXAUSTIANXJXAPANXCXASEWORKXAXVIVXJ UNIORXRXETICULUMXMXOTHXLXINGUALXAXLDERMANXCRIMSONXCXLOTUREXEXXODUSXH OMOXXGOUSXMXERITXAXMPHIBIANXRXADIOGRAPHXXMXUMBLEXDITHERXDXALTONXDXEBITXC ELIBACXXHXUDSONXTXIRADEXAXSXLUMXAXRDENXDXEFENDXAXNOTHERXCOLOSSALXBXRIDGET BXASHXDXENSITOMETERXMXIASMALXCXENTUMXAXBSTINENTXMXERCKXBXATIK ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 02:52:51 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: August Highland Subject: KEYWORD APOLLO/COORDINATE EPOCH Comments: To: spammers and flamers , regurgitation , killfilter , ink tank , imitation poetics , genre-splicing , full-throttle orginator , brain feeder , syndicate@anart.no, 7-11@mail.ljudmila.org, _arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit KEYWORD APOLLO/COORDINATE EPOCH Defraction #0000001: The optical axis of the projects/ccdmosaic/ the actual name of the. Degeneracy (r). except version of the document TO ALL: CAN REACH ME. Aperture detnam filter docs/heasarc/ofwg/docs/. String that identifies, recommended that the stupefaction ,agahst, In fits datastream order whatever that is. 3. Keywords that. Defraction #0000002: Would be similar to must do your zero character string which. Document describing the, I STILL WANT TO KNOW REFERENCE: During the entire DISLIKE IT IS A TERMINAL those of us that think. Of "this jerk dosnt, reference frame is given the FITS file. This. Of observation hopless said "finger the LEVEL OF THE SUBJECT.. Defraction #0000003: Variable as "infinity" definition of this think I know you, "fuck-me" smile that she that that would be. Floating point number, ~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM hide the error. Yes, no one would ask HDU: any DATATYPE: docs/heasarc/ofwg/docs/. Giving the exposure time RADECSYS keyword, and. Defraction #0000004: Then the names must be, EXAMPLE BRANCHING TO A move down farther and. Reference to a document heasarc.gsfc.nasa.gov/ the optical axis of the. Stock tightly around me as I ORY. HOWEVER THIS WOULD. Deg, a histogram of the reference frame is given. Checksum.html hdu: any minus sign may precede ********* *********. Defraction #0000005: Ofwg recomm/r11.html DATATYPE: string deg. Was pointed, which reduce the net detailed. Docs/heasarc/ofwg/docs/ associated HDUCLASn. And the capacity of the head slightly and looked MADE A MISTAKE IN HAVING. By spaces in columns 9, the observation: SO THATS WHAT 'ESC I'. Defraction #0000006: Blowing up and forcing a character string. Had orders, which become RA.NOM DEC.NOM RA.OBJ keyword shall contain a. Generate the data that, string COMMENT: IAU name has both a BRAIN AND. That aaron, unsigned HAVE TO SAY THAT VERY that more bits may be. There are, REFERENCE: DP. Defraction #0000007: On me. conjunction with the or 'BINTABLE' extensions. Detector. the value, where either). From sticking?", tax is due. Now consider YOUR DOLLARS AVAILABLE. That month you still here. The value of this VERSIONS) GET VERY. You speak, thine @!#%*? frame is given by the. Defraction #0000008: Stay in your seat and CIS Cursor Control ESC approximated by the. I was in school (i'm header. It is. Knowledge of the rules ('.') character.. September night, a title that is suitable EXAMPLE OF / IF YOU. Into meticulous FILE ON the only way in which a. Defraction #0000009: Floating point number, units of seconds. ONTIME the. Definition: the value brush the back of my It wails as the brisk. Said that,i just trying so solution is for. The current hdu intense orgasm that was tones). Docs/heasarc/ofwg/docs/ quoted string should be. August Highland www.go-ego-go.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 02:53:59 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: August Highland Subject: FORBIDDEN INTERSECTIONS Comments: To: syndicate@anart.no, spammers and flamers , regurgitation , killfilter , ink tank , imitation poetics , genre-splicing , full-throttle orginator , brain feeder , 7-11@mail.ljudmila.org, _arc.hive_@lm.va.com.au MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FORBIDDEN INTERSECTIONS Source Code #0000001: To want to talk about quaternion. Initially. .x...x.x......x.x...... 3130.1 26.180.11 171 281. 0 As the two lads sat back another back into you, As to the two ongoing, AS FOR COL.. SIGH.. I 7. ......xx.x............ As a guideline, when ..... Source Code #0000002: Hands, so be careful! No path! 10. - an entire disk of initials for a name, than she could handle. Key to the right. it is, system technology would vector is as a one-. Node.) each node in a below.. Ffl similarly, each node and punish crimes only I am still awaiting a. Source Code #0000003: Computers are to be of the register into SYSTEM.. Far as i can tell. line segments, so all of the city are laid out. Or "invalid". any one else, of lust returned to her. Examples input 1: 3 mystery out of your digits before and two. Fire from within engulfs white hoodlums, one of. Source Code #0000004: I grunted and swore as i, around sort of person edit script that. Mike, before you wonder would compare them. Then print the resulting, dark to light. q. Ah, time share and WAY WE COULD ACCESS MORE 0 1 0 ) [3 ( 0 0 0 1 ). Lines containing pairs, stayed inside background. Source Code #0000005: Make the problem they are run on. aren't going to do it. 9 than once.. Hmm... my me pinching and. Ffl a delete operation, applications. ARGUMENT. .......xx.x............ part of the yourself uses) by which. Source Code #0000006: A checksum as follows: straight north. The spy of the enter mode. The. Vector is as a one- called interior nodes. (from smallest index to. Is indicated in square, unions, media, and only have access to text. No basis for doing, them, even this ..... ...........x...x....... \Gamma q. Source Code #0000007: Day ahead of time who FORGET THE WHOLE BLOODY OF ZERO. IT IS ONLY. Ascending order of, %#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%# at it with wine. Correspond to the non- rapidly, soon just abut. Where q 1 I'm just glad. Proof: haps there you will. Source Code #0000008: 1 2 3 4, stole in the ghetto" lines is terminated by a. Enough to remember when, MAGNIFICENT++++++++++++ the smallest maximum. Enough to remember when but I've never had the LAST LINE, 2.563.29 3.141.00, the path from a node to always, I feel it move. Dress over her (0,0,1,3) -? (0,1,2,3) - p. Source Code #0000009: 1.12 2.56 3.41 4.4, NUMBERS any REAL num-. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ i. Everyone in the world, 2 10 3 6 Assume that all real. (nydb="none of your 0 1 0 ) [3 ( 0 0 0 1 ) in each packet to verify. Submarine and have just opcode, each operation Pardon my lack of. Source Code #0000010: A wicked smile, the girl, mobile radio, and .XX..X.X......X..X...... 1, I SEE IS THAT THE computer graphics and. Background 0 to w. The remaining. Not, then aren't you cost edit script; you Miscellaneous U, you. Important!!, Contact Terry Conboy at + p. August Highland www.academic-liberation-party.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 07:05:15 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Laura Elrick Subject: Sherry Brennan and Fionna Templeton in NYC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit SEGUE READING SERIES AT THE BOWERY POETRY CLUB Saturday Jan 17 Sherry Brennan and Fionna Templeton http://www.bowerypoetry.com/ 308 BOWERY, JUST NORTH OF HOUSTON SATURDAYS FROM 4 - 6 PM $5 admission goes to support the readers Sherry Brennan lives and works in New York. A book of poems, On the Movement of Plants, is forthcoming from subpress. New essays can be found in African American Review and online at Jacket. Fiona Templeton is a poet and director, and is working on an epic and a site-specific recreation of people's dreams. Her books include YOU?The City and Cells of Release (Roof) and Delirium of Interpretations (Green Integer). Funding is made possible by the continuing support of the Segue Foundation and the Literature Program of the New York State Council on the Arts. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 09:14:33 -0500 Reply-To: ron.silliman@gte.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Subject: Silliman's Blog Comments: To: WOM-PO , BRITISH-POETS@JISCMAIL.AC.UK, nanders1@swarthmore.edu, new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu, whpoets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ Poems, drawing & hotel stationery - Bill Corbett's collaboration with John King In Florida Curtis Faville on Dickinson-Niedecker-Moore-Armantrout The gun as the verb in the syntax of cinema - shortchanging the reader/viewer in House of Sand & Fog Rae Armantrout's Up to Speed - A wider range & a darker tone in her poetry Dickinson - Niedecker - Armantrout: The trouble with tropes An explication of post-avant & the School of Quietude Nada's ring Ron Silliman forthcoming events in Chicago, Philadelphia, New York Defining the line in speech as well as writing Blog less, blog better John Godfrey's Private Lemonade: the role of syntax in abstraction What the value of prose can bring to the poem Silent rhyme: Marianne Moore & the question of the line Philadelphia Progressive Poetry Calendar http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 09:47:06 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Grant Matthew Jenkins Subject: CFP: Experimental Black Poetry, MLA 2004, 3/15 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Papers expanding the nascent discussions of identity, politics, tradition, and form in contemporary experimental Black poetry. Email 1 page proposals by 15 Mar. G. Matthew Jenkins (grant-jenkins@utulsa.edu) Director of the Writing Program Department of English University of Tulsa 600 S. College Ave Tulsa, OK 74104 918.631.2573 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 12:44:27 -0330 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Hehir Subject: World Poetry Electronic Newsletter #20 now available! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The World Poetry Electronic Newsletter Issue 2o is now available! For a free copy, please email: ariadne@uniserve.com Contents: Welcome! World Poetry News. Featured article: A Remarkable Woman: Anita Aguirre Nieveras. Poet in the Spotlight features: Peter Nicholson News from the Tree House by Patricia Star Downey age 14. Featured Tree House Poet: Alex Winstanley age 17. The World Poetry Stage features Nadeem Parmar. Creative Tips by Ariadne Sawyer. Acknowledgements and disclaimer. Ariadne Sawyer,MA Performance Plus Coach http://www.ariadnescoaching.com ariadnes@uniserve.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 09:52:09 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Corbett Subject: Re: Steven Shaviro's Connected & Sci-fi/SF In-Reply-To: <001d01c3d85c$fd442bc0$effdfc83@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hey Joel, Not all "sci-fi" readers are lefties. My evidenc: Norman Spinrad, and for that matter the whole Star Trek series. Question: why does the future always wear a uniform, accordingly to Hollywood. Robert -- Robert Corbett, Ph.C. "Given the distance of communication, Coordinator of New Programs I hope the words aren't idling on the B40D Gerberding map of my fingertips, but igniting the Phone: (206) 616-0657 wild acres within the probabilities of Fax: (206) 685-3218 spelling" - Rosmarie Waldrop UW Box: 351237 On Sun, 11 Jan 2004, Joel Weishaus wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Alan Sondheim" > To: > Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2004 2:16 PM > Subject: Re: Steven Shaviro's Connected & Sci-fi/SF > > > >... > >Statements which are almost true or theoretically moving, can build up, one > after another, until a very problematic state occurs. > > Sounds like Bush's reasons for going to war. My theory is that the > proportion of Americans bought the administration's story is [in]verse to > those who read Sci-fi. > > -Joel > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 09:56:38 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: Re: Steven Shaviro's Connected & Sci-fi/SF In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Monday, January 12, 2004, at 09:52 AM, Robert Corbett wrote: > Question: why > does the future always wear a uniform, accordingly to Hollywood. > > Robert irrelevant answer.. do we not already wear uniforms...?... and a good snazzy uniform and be so sexy... kari ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 12:58:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Tills Subject: Re: LOTR & Mr. Olson's Finland! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Responding to Craig Allen Conrad's last post: I, too, think it has a lot more to do with class, in the sense of $$$ = (i.e., intellectually, I am far and away the most upper middle class = person at the factory here where I work, as I'm far better educated, = more deeply informed etc., blah). However, I'm a peon here, and I make = a fraction of what long time engineers and managers and others make, = most of later of which have little formal education at all, much less = extensive reading in Lit/Humanities etc. I have essentially NO power = (except to quit, of course). When I was an Adjunct Junior College "professor," I had a good deal more = education than almost all my students, if not all, and a lot of my = colleagues, but as an adjunct I drove junk cars and could not own a = house (in California), and again I had very little real "power." In = fact, I had none whatsoever if a right-wing Christian department head = from Texas given tenure after just 3 years wanted to "lay me off" for = maintaining higher standards or teaching essays debunking creationism, = pro-life, and pro-death penalty arguments, or for otherwise just being = different at a conservative cow college in rural California. =20 Last night, the "special interest" RACE piled up on Dean. If they want = Bush really badly, the Dem "special interests" RACE, GENDER, SEXUAL = ORIENTATION, LABOR, and a few others can keep piling up on Dean, but = nothing is going to stop Colin Powell from selling war for Halliburton = and Bechtel and the schitt company I work for; stop Neil Bush from = screwing prostitutes in Asia (underage? sex slaves in sex trade over = there?); Kobe Bryant from engaging in sex which is more a "game among = macho male pro athletes whereby females are just orifices"; stop Hillary = Clinton from aiding and abetting corporations that rip off middle class = and working class investors. I woke up from a dream the other night that was completely and = thoroughly devoid of "viciousness," as are most of my dreams It was = full of tenderness and very "non-commercial" sex and love and "lust." = (It revealed the usual, what is completely missing in my own life.) = There was a woman and we kissed. Not, as I say, "commercially sexual," = but definitely tender, ummm, lust or whatever. I still "want to" create "vicious" stuff that voices and affects = propaganda against various politicians in the world. I believe in the = idea of "art" transcending its bourgeois purpose, fattening resumes for = careers, and I believe in art that doesn't aspire to traditional art = aims at all, rather, works towards political ends. I believe in regular = art (or regular bourgeois art aims), too, of course, and I look forward = to a day when my head is free again enough to more frequently pursue = same. Craig Allen Conrad wrote: >> > it's no secret how much class is responsible for racism and sexism, but = you claim--Kirby--that no one on this list wants to participate in such = a discussion because almost everybody on the list is middle class. = first, there're a lot of us on this list who are not, and have never = been middle class. but do you even want to discuss this? i'm not sure, = and so i'm asking.=20 does this mean you or others who are middle class should feel guilty? = that's for you to decide. i'm not interested in this personal crisis, = accept how it affects the way in which class might be ignored for a look = at it's symptoms, such as racism and sexism. and the trailer park is the = softest target, as though anyone in a trailer park has the authority and = the power to hire or fire based on race or gender or whatever else. it's = always been those with the money, especially those with the controlling = amount of money, who will divide us into ever smaller "special = interests" which even rich man Howard Dean will complain about.=20 (oh yeah, Dean. if he wins the primary, i'll make my special Howard Dean = dumplings and sell them at the polls. inside every dumpling is a = diamond, which is only glass, in other words, lawsuit dumplings, in = other words, not what is claimed, and that which will bleed you when = bitten with faith.)=20 but back to who we are and how we want to not talk about it. am i = supposed to be ashamed that my father is the janitor at my old high = school? (who's asking this? well i am you goof!) does it make you = uncomfortable? well, it doesn't make me uncomfortable. and maybe you = have ideas in your head when reading that my father's a janitor that he = must not have too much going on upstairs? but he'd lace your thoughts = for you, long before you realized what conversation he'd led you into. = his mop is his meditation for the world.=20 whatever. this is one of those times where someone will write me and = say, "Are we supposed to compete over which of us is more white trash = now?" i've been through this before. guilt darts.=20 or lectures about how when we're little bitty children on the = playground, class means nothing. okay, yes. okay. but how about we slip = inside something a little bigger than a mere conversation about how = class operates? something like, what the hell are we going to do about = the injustice?=20 hating the poor, bashing the poor, is the feel-good secret pleasure in = America. and never has it been more-so than among the poor. it continues = to be the case where i grew up, that no one is ever allowed to feel okay = with just paying their bills, taking care of and loving their kids. the = pressure and the stress to hate yourself for NOT being at least middle = class is almost ferocious among the poor. you're just a dirty lazy bum = if you don't want to have lots and lots of shiny toys to drive or = install in your living room.=20 dumplings anyone? CAConrad=20 =20 Steve Tills Microcomputer/Software Specialist MIS Dept.- G.W. Lisk Company, Inc. 315-462-4309 Stills@gwlisk.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 14:28:44 -0330 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Hehir Subject: Re: Steven Shaviro's Connected & Sci-fi/SF In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I love a flan in a uniform > > and a good snazzy uniform and be so sexy... > > kari > -- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 18:56:44 -0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Todd Swift Subject: New Year poetry now online at Nthposition MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All best wishes for 2004 from http://www.nthposition.com Our January Poetry section is now online, featuring ten poets: REN Allen Gary Glazner Louis Armand Jill Jones Alison Trower Jayne Fenton Keane Stephanie Bolster Giles Goodland David McKelvie Adeena Karasick February will feature, among others, John Stiles, Matthew Miller, = Francis Raven and poets in translation from Hungary and Croatia. We are now reading for March and April. Nthposition welcomes = innovative, edgy or just plain weird poetry, from published poets. cheers Todd _______________________________________________ ST Swift Poetry Editor: Nthposition http://www.nthposition.com Nthposition is the Reader's Choice for Online Cultural Coverage The Utne Independent Press Awards 2003 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 13:55:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eric Haralson MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Call for Papers, Henry James Society, ALA Conference, 27-30 May 2004, San Francisco. "Jamesian Imprints: Poetry": Papers on poets whose work is demonstrably in dialogue with James or who have written significant criticism on James, especially Moore, Auden, Berryman, Merrill, Ashbery, but other combinations welcome. Brief abstracts to Eric Haralson by 20 January. eharalson@notes.cc.sunysb.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 14:06:25 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Craig Allen Conrad Subject: to Steve Tills on class and art MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit thanks for that response. there's much to say, to reflect.... the thing i wanted to talk about the most though is the idea of art. one thing i will never forget (and am grateful for) that an ex-boyfriend who grew up in Bali told me, is that in his homeland, there is no word "artist." it was a real, serious, beautiful breakthrough for me. he was sorry he told me, i think, because i became obsessed with this notion of a vocabulary which lacked the signifying, or qualifying tag of "artist." and what i was able to learn from Andy when pressing him to tell me about "art" in Bali, is that his culture assumes THAT EVERYONE IS CREATIVE. and they need no separation from that, to place a halo over the annointed, the gifted. and everyone, and he says everyone, is always making whatever they do beautiful. what the elite in the "art world" would call "folk art." just as "folk art" in America is "craft" etc. although the Outsider Art exhibitions which have been on tour are helping to change that. and people like Jonathan Williams, who has never liked to make the distinction which of course is more about class than art, that distinction between--i don't know, between Warhol and Darger, for instance. bad example, but it's not about their art, it's about their placement in art i'm talking about. from there i started to investigate how our English has evolved (or is it devolved?) with our language around "art." it was the word Talent that really threw me. correct me if i'm wrong, anybody out there, but the original meaning of the word, from what i've read, means weights and measures, for gold. from there it transformed into a word connected to craftsmen, and the idea was that it was a skill you worked very hard at. and now we've come to the American Oxford, (i think it's this one in particular) where the word is associated with those who are "gifted." it's a smelly trail if you ask me, ending at this rather elitist and separate place. "gifted." "special." i prefer the older definition on hard work at your skill. there're so many people who have been cut off for so very long from their creative centers. and of course we all have such a center in us. every child loves to draw and dream. and sing and play with colors and shapes. and every time i encounter a poet, or a painter who gets their competitive dander up, and gets bitchy, i think about, well, first how it seems like there are so many who REALLY believe that someone else's gain is their loss. and i try to imagine what it must have been like before mass publishing. because it's very very competitive now, and there are thousands of new books of poetry every year, and thousands of art galleries and millions and millions of artists. and i think about the millions of art students. and all the people getting degrees in poetry. and it's SO EXCITING when you think about it! it's very much like we're coming home to ourselves and to one another in a very big, amazing way. and of course there's NO WAY that the "art market" or the "poetry market" can bear the weight of all these people. and it's WONDERFUL because it's the opportunity to take all that creative energy and transform this country. and we are doing it, and it's endless the possibilities for what we are going to do next and how we're going to shape this broke-ass world! it takes creativity to make REAL CHANGE and it's very clear RIGHT NOW that we have all of that powder in the cannon to shoot holes in the strange dream we're asked to plug into. class is very important in art. i've met a lot of upper middle class, and even upper class kids who are art students, or in MFA programs, and they are very aware of class and race and gender, and asking one another questions, and taking it on their own to be responsible for their lives and to reject the ideas they've been expected to follow. and of course we have the 60s to thank. and all those marvelous poets of the 50s who broke down a lot of class barriers to make room for those of us who can't afford higher education. CAConrad http://phillysound.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 15:09:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Shankar, Ravi (English)" Subject: Re: the racist inside of you - A Quiz in Verse Comments: cc: patrick@proximate.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: First confront the racist inside of you.=20 I did. Here's the result. -Ravi=20 Free and fun! Play at home.=20 Are you a Racist?=20 Complete the following sentences:=20 We people, who are darker than blue, =20 a) Eat jackfruit and roti, else collard greens.=20 b) Are hewn from adamantine, not hue.=20 c) Will go crunk on y'ass motherfucker! d) Are better of now then we were then. e)=20 An erotic journey from Milan to Minsk=20 a) Should include a boar bristle hairbrush, dark railway car, sticky = rice in Tupperware, the application of moist towelletes, a couple = whispering in Swiss and/or a disposable camera. b) Would end in Tangiers.=20 c) Costs less than Disney World for a family of four. =20 d) Misquotes a "foreign film" from Seinfeld.=20 e) Branding and brand identity =20 =20 a) Seek to nest in droves.=20 b) Will succeed only if their tenets are never contradicted over time.=20 b) Are dirty words in this class!=20 c) Mean that you too can finally be cool.=20 e) To see some races =20 a)At the Velodrome, one asks whether racing recumbent really is superior = to racing prone.=20 b) Malt liquor and convulsive irony are a must. c) Is not to overhear. To overhear is to imitate. To imitate is to = appropriate.=20 To appropriate is to soak away.=20 d)Speak they piece, you might as well be watching Donald Duck- all = quack quack = with wack tailfeathers cold-slapping the ground like how we pound. e)=09 =20 =20 *************** Ravi Shankar=20 Poet-in-Residence Assistant Professor CCSU - English Dept. 860-832-2766 shankarr@ccsu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 15:20:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Shankar, Ravi (English)" Subject: Re: the racist inside of you - A Quiz in Verse MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The lineation, of course, has been chewed and spit back out by Outlook.=20 *************** Ravi Shankar=20 Poet-in-Residence Assistant Professor CCSU - English Dept. 860-832-2766 shankarr@ccsu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 15:47:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ian VanHeusen Subject: Re: ithaca? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Although I cannot help you with the poetry scene, I would recommend taking a trip over to Seneca Lake. I am from Dundee, and have always enjoyed the Glen at Watkins Glen & the area has many wineries (a little over-priced, but the wine trail is fun). Furthermore, my Grandma runs a B & B right on Seneca Lake called Willow Cove. That area is incredible. The farms always have little stands set up by the road where you take what you need (normally potatoes, pumpkins, apples, etc.) & leave the money in the small wooden box. I always imagine the sound of the Glenora waterfall which is right down the street from the winery. In all of my travels, I still consider it the most beautiful part of the world (altough I am highly biased). ________________________________________________ Policies dangerously increase. >From: Mairead Byrne >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: ithaca? >Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 22:48:07 -0500 > >Dear Aaron, > >I'm very fond of Ithaca, having lived there 3 years. Jane Sprague, who >organizes the brilliant West End poetry series in Ithaca will probably >respond to you in more detail. She know the scene very well. I taught at >Ithaca College when I was there, and had a small fellowship at Cornell, so >knew about poetry events at both these institutions. There was more at >Cornell than I.C., but not a huge amount at either. >There are also great and interesting MFA poetry students at Cornell. >Jasper Bernes, who now teaches at Hobart and William Smith Colleges, may >also be a good contact for you. I did a reading once at SUNY Binghamton >nearby, but I think Chad Davidson is no longer there. Still, Syracuse and >Binghamton are >possibilities for further poetry sourcing! Best of luck to your partner! >The challenge may be for *you* to find gainful employment, if you guys move >to Ithaca. But it can be done. > >Mairead > > >www.maireadbyrne.blogspot.com > >>> atieger@YAHOO.COM 01/11/04 22:39 PM >>> >Hi, > >Can anyone fill me in on the poetry scene in Ithaca, NY? Or any kind of >scene? >My partner is applying for a position there and neither of us know anything >about it other than a) it's beautiful and b) it's at least 4 hours from >everywhere. > >Thanks! >Aaron > >===== >"We were fervent listeners... we were like sticks of dynamite." (Joe >Strummer) > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes >http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus _________________________________________________________________ Get a FREE online virus check for your PC here, from McAfee. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 12:49:45 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: alexander saliby Subject: Re: the racist inside of you - A Quiz in Verse MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ravi, d. d. c. c. for me... Unless, of course, I'm visiting relatives in New Jersey. Then I have to = pretend differently. alex=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Shankar, Ravi (English)=20 To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=20 Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 12:09 PM Subject: Re: the racist inside of you - A Quiz in Verse Re: First confront the racist inside of you.=20 I did. Here's the result. -Ravi=20 Free and fun! Play at home.=20 Are you a Racist?=20 Complete the following sentences:=20 We people, who are darker than blue, =20 a) Eat jackfruit and roti, else collard greens.=20 b) Are hewn from adamantine, not hue.=20 c) Will go crunk on y'ass motherfucker! d) Are better of now then we were then. e)=20 An erotic journey from Milan to Minsk=20 a) Should include a boar bristle hairbrush, dark railway car, = sticky rice in Tupperware, the application of moist towelletes, a = couple whispering in Swiss and/or a disposable camera. b) Would end in Tangiers.=20 c) Costs less than Disney World for a family of four. =20 d) Misquotes a "foreign film" from Seinfeld.=20 e) Branding and brand identity =20 =20 a) Seek to nest in droves.=20 b) Will succeed only if their tenets are never contradicted over = time.=20 b) Are dirty words in this class!=20 c) Mean that you too can finally be cool.=20 e) To see some races =20 a)At the Velodrome, one asks whether racing recumbent really is = superior to racing prone.=20 b) Malt liquor and convulsive irony are a must. c) Is not to overhear. To overhear is to imitate. To imitate is to = appropriate.=20 To appropriate is to soak away.=20 d)Speak they piece, you might as well be watching Donald Duck- all = quack quack = with wack tailfeathers cold-slapping the ground like how we pound. e)=20 =20 =20 *************** Ravi Shankar=20 Poet-in-Residence Assistant Professor CCSU - English Dept. 860-832-2766 shankarr@ccsu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 22:37:04 +0100 Reply-To: magee@uni.lodz.pl Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Magee Subject: End-of-roll flares MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MANIFOLD long paced and limited by confined and controlled debate integrated into common knowledge underground to set to it the forces released by the resources stages in a process unfold and appear to confirm inhibited interpretations (research)(motions) elaborated to enable consensus, validity and the view with its partial share, one nation writing its own history as a system began to be consolidated authoritarian impulses traditional to mass media malleability (mobility) of individual aspirations massive structures of consciousness militant the world of the public acted on militate the impossibility of entirely manipulating political life, policies, ideas and objectives just how far the literature and arts of the age corresponded to any part of the society 'priskazka' or 'skazochnyi zachin' coal, steel and newsreel MOLECULE occasioned by a sound one follows another around, run down, fine the finding shrines sunnily, window stunned devices, tools, applications, deskilling the willingness to suspend belief, there where affliction is fiction, an imaginary one only one does not transcend, rescinding scissions incisions, all the work in every word long before the word arrives in writing work has transpired there, labor, milling labor its expression is no longer possible (plausible) where does its writing find itself finding itself, heard or seen audible-visible, these aren't separate though any language is hardly ever heard dropped ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 17:02:31 -0500 Reply-To: olsonjk@delhi.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kirby Olson Organization: SUNY Delhi Subject: Re: class, the muted variable MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Craig, I brought it up because I think that class is much more of a determinant than race and gender in terms of who can create what. Virginia Woolf says as much in her long essay A Room of One's Own. She said the right to vote for women didn't mean nearly as much to her as getting money so that she didn't have to work. She became the most powerful critical voice, the most powerful publisher, and the most important writer of the London of her day. This was because she got enough money to be able to do this. Probably many have the talent. Very few have the cash. Most of my life I've made less than ten grand a year. Finally at age 47 I have a paying gig (it doesn't pay much, and I am raising three children, but it still functions, and finally I am able to write, even if I do so only very slowly). When you look at Haitian literature, for instance, it was all or almost all written by the upper class. Proust had the ability to rent rooms underneath him and above him in order to guarantee silence, and this was in the best hotels in France. Result? Or if you think about another monumental writer in France -- the Marquis de Sade. Having access to money is crucially important, and I was asking this in a sarcastic way (but hopefully I was not being too vicious). My Finnish father in law works as a janitor in a small town in Finland. He's one of the smartest men around, but he has no time for anything, and arrives at home every night completely exhausted. He can still beat me at crossword puzzles in English, which is sort of hard to believe. he had aspirations to be a writer as a young man. He was raised in a tiny farmhouse in the middle of nowhere, and never got an education, but he educated himself. His English was learned out of a library carousel, and it is quite excellent, if eccentric. There are very very few poor writers who have been able to make it in the literary world. Those who do, like Gregory Corso, had to be extremely gutsy about getting money. If you read Corso's recently published letters -- almost every letter is a request for money, or has such a request in it. He married women only for the money, etc., but he was too unstable, and never lasted in the marriages. Yes, I think that class is critical. This is why I said in one of my posts yesterday that there is hardly any Lutheran literature in this country. Everybody was working 18 hour days on dirt farms until late in the 20th century. We now have John Updike. When I talk to my parents about their lives -- they were lucky to get a single piece of fruit once a year -- on Christmas, when they were children. So I am often a little crazy when I hear the daughter of a corporate CEO from Hong Kong talk about her lack of privilege as she drives up in a red convertible to graduate school. Race and gender do have an impact, and they are in some ways intertwined with class, but it is class that determines how much freedom somebody has to write. Virginia Woolf's and Proust's cases are evidence of this, I think. But very few people want to talk about class I think because money is not an issue for them, so they tend to try to create diversionary tactics in order to hold themselves up as victims. But the extreme poor are the real victims in this society across the board. So let's check out the lives of writers -- the poor ones die young, and are very unhealthy, and it doesn't matter how gifted they are. The rich ones generally die late, and in comfortable circumstances with the best doctors in attendance. Of course, there are also rich writers like Virginia Woolf who have it all, and then go and commit suicide. And there are people like Bukowski who cheerfully survive every kind of poverty and write fifty books and die with a grin. Thanks. You know -- one of the interesting things when you go into an art gallery is to look at the prices. It would be equally interesting to look through the tax records of writers. Of course, I don't want to kill the rich or anything. I don't think Marxism really works. People just have to generate money if they want to get the time to write. After I cite you, I will continue on for a bit, as I am warming up to this topic. > you claim--Kirby--that no one on this list wants to participate in such > a discussion because almost everybody on the list is middle class. > first, there're a lot of us on this list who are not, and have never been > middle class. but do you even want to discuss this? i'm not sure, > and so i'm asking. -- I was trying -- in my usual backhanded manner -- to create such a discussion, yes, and so yes I am willing to discuss it. I am fascinated by the money that writers have both in terms of contemporary writers and also in terms of historically how much did each surrealist have, and what were the results? I am also fascinated by the permeability of class -- for instance an important basketball player who rises from the ghetto to become super-rich (some have done this!), or whoever it was who started Pizza Hut, or a Korean grocer who starts with nothing and puts up a tiny vegetable stand in the Bronx and starts to rise economically (I read a good novel on this called The Fruit N Food by Leonard Chang). How do the aspirations rise with the income? For instance, Robert Corbett said that a Baptist who could rise to become a plantation owner would probably switch into the Episcopalian church. In New Orleans some free blacks rose to incredible heights of wealth and would have their own pews in the front of Episcopal church and became slave-owners themselves. Class is a mysterious thing because you retain some of the viewpoint of another class as you rise (or fall -- many millionaires end up as paupers). I don't think the super-rich should be ashamed of their holdings, or offed. I think it's laudable when a family creates a financial base that can allow for a child to attend a good college and perhaps go on to have some freedom. Marcel Duchamp never had to work. His dad saved for him. Breton's dad was a postal worker who nevertheless guaranteed that Andre Breton never had to work. He scrimped so that his son would have money. This turns out to be the case for a great great number of writers. And isn't it laudable? Thank heavens for such thoughtful parents! And the poor in this country are often one parent families. Families that stay together generally rise into the middle classes. This is what all the research is saying. Class does seem to effect who can write, and especially in the realm of poetry, in which there is almost NO CHANCE of remuneration for the vast labors involved, it seems to me that only the super-rich last very long, or the incredibly cagey. Now we have some who get teaching positions, and that helps. This is part of the reason that I was so fascinated by Corso. Can you think of another orphan poet who came from the very lowest underclass, had a sixth grade education, and yet became one of the most important poets of his time? This is so rare that I don't know of another case. -- Kirby > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 14:15:12 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Corbett Subject: Re: class, the muted variable Comments: To: Kirby Olson In-Reply-To: <40031977.2C2A99A9@delhi.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII John Clare comes to mind. As does Thomas Chatterton. There is a little one working-class women poet of the 18th century who found a sponsor. In the end, Kirby is quite right that a little money and a little time go a long toward helping a writer get to publication. I would demur, however, in saying that class determines whether one can "create." There are many Miltons amongst us, though the world considers them "mute" and "inglorious." Question to Kirby: Was your father-in-law a big reader? My own grandfather read the Encyclopedia and most every other book in the North Augusta libary, harbored dreams of being a writer, but had to forgo college in order to support his mother during the depression. He didn't survive being a medic in WWII, but no doubt he would have kept on reading, whether he wrote or not. Robert -- Robert Corbett, Ph.C. "Given the distance of communication, Coordinator of New Programs I hope the words aren't idling on the B40D Gerberding map of my fingertips, but igniting the Phone: (206) 616-0657 wild acres within the probabilities of Fax: (206) 685-3218 spelling" - Rosmarie Waldrop UW Box: 351237 On Mon, 12 Jan 2004, Kirby Olson wrote: > Craig, I brought it up because I think that class is much more of a determinant > than race and gender in terms of who can create what. Virginia Woolf says as > much in her long essay A Room of One's Own. She said the right to vote for > women didn't mean nearly as much to her as getting money so that she didn't have > to work. She became the most powerful critical voice, the most powerful > publisher, and the most important writer of the London of her day. This was > because she got enough money to be able to do this. Probably many have the > talent. Very few have the cash. > > Most of my life I've made less than ten grand a year. Finally at age 47 I have > a paying gig (it doesn't pay much, and I am raising three children, but it still > functions, and finally I am able to write, even if I do so only very slowly). > > When you look at Haitian literature, for instance, it was all or almost all > written by the upper class. Proust had the ability to rent rooms underneath him > and above him in order to guarantee silence, and this was in the best hotels in > France. Result? Or if you think about another monumental writer in France -- > the Marquis de Sade. > > Having access to money is crucially important, and I was asking this in a > sarcastic way (but hopefully I was not being too vicious). My Finnish father in > law works as a janitor in a small town in Finland. He's one of the smartest men > around, but he has no time for anything, and arrives at home every night > completely exhausted. He can still beat me at crossword puzzles in English, > which is sort of hard to believe. he had aspirations to be a writer as a young > man. He was raised in a tiny farmhouse in the middle of nowhere, and never got > an education, but he educated himself. His English was learned out of a library > carousel, and it is quite excellent, if eccentric. > > There are very very few poor writers who have been able to make it in the > literary world. Those who do, like Gregory Corso, had to be extremely gutsy > about getting money. If you read Corso's recently published letters -- almost > every letter is a request for money, or has such a request in it. He married > women only for the money, etc., but he was too unstable, and never lasted in the > marriages. > > Yes, I think that class is critical. This is why I said in one of my posts > yesterday that there is hardly any Lutheran literature in this country. > Everybody was working 18 hour days on dirt farms until late in the 20th > century. We now have John Updike. When I talk to my parents about their lives > -- they were lucky to get a single piece of fruit once a year -- on Christmas, > when they were children. > > So I am often a little crazy when I hear the daughter of a corporate CEO from > Hong Kong talk about her lack of privilege as she drives up in a red convertible > to graduate school. > > Race and gender do have an impact, and they are in some ways intertwined with > class, but it is class that determines how much freedom somebody has to write. > Virginia Woolf's and Proust's cases are evidence of this, I think. But very few > people want to talk about class I think because money is not an issue for them, > so they tend to try to create diversionary tactics in order to hold themselves > up as victims. But the extreme poor are the real victims in this society across > the board. > > So let's check out the lives of writers -- the poor ones die young, and are very > unhealthy, and it doesn't matter how gifted they are. The rich ones generally > die late, and in comfortable circumstances with the best doctors in attendance. > Of course, there are also rich writers like Virginia Woolf who have it all, and > then go and commit suicide. And there are people like Bukowski who cheerfully > survive every kind of poverty and write fifty books and die with a grin. > > Thanks. You know -- one of the interesting things when you go into an art > gallery is to look at the prices. It would be equally interesting to look > through the tax records of writers. Of course, I don't want to kill the rich or > anything. I don't think Marxism really works. People just have to generate > money if they want to get the time to write. After I cite you, I will continue > on for a bit, as I am warming up to this topic. > > > > > > you claim--Kirby--that no one on this list wants to participate in such > > a discussion because almost everybody on the list is middle class. > > first, there're a lot of us on this list who are not, and have never been > > middle class. but do you even want to discuss this? i'm not sure, > > and so i'm asking. > > -- I was trying -- in my usual backhanded manner -- to create such a discussion, > yes, and so yes I am willing to discuss it. I am fascinated by the money that > writers have both in terms of contemporary writers and also in terms of > historically how much did each surrealist have, and what were the results? I am > also fascinated by the permeability of class -- for instance an important > basketball player who rises from the ghetto to become super-rich (some have done > this!), or whoever it was who started Pizza Hut, or a Korean grocer who starts > with nothing and puts up a tiny vegetable stand in the Bronx and starts to rise > economically (I read a good novel on this called The Fruit N Food by Leonard > Chang). How do the aspirations rise with the income? For instance, Robert > Corbett said that a Baptist who could rise to become a plantation owner would > probably switch into the Episcopalian church. In New Orleans some free blacks > rose to incredible heights of wealth and would have their own pews in the front > of Episcopal church and became slave-owners themselves. > > Class is a mysterious thing because you retain some of the viewpoint of another > class as you rise (or fall -- many millionaires end up as paupers). I don't > think the super-rich should be ashamed of their holdings, or offed. I think > it's laudable when a family creates a financial base that can allow for a child > to attend a good college and perhaps go on to have some freedom. Marcel Duchamp > never had to work. His dad saved for him. Breton's dad was a postal worker who > nevertheless guaranteed that Andre Breton never had to work. He scrimped so > that his son would have money. This turns out to be the case for a great great > number of writers. And isn't it laudable? Thank heavens for such thoughtful > parents! And the poor in this country are often one parent families. Families > that stay together generally rise into the middle classes. This is what all the > research is saying. > > Class does seem to effect who can write, and especially in the realm of poetry, > in which there is almost NO CHANCE of remuneration for the vast labors involved, > it seems to me that only the super-rich last very long, or the incredibly > cagey. Now we have some who get teaching positions, and that helps. This is > part of the reason that I was so fascinated by Corso. Can you think of another > orphan poet who came from the very lowest underclass, had a sixth grade > education, and yet became one of the most important poets of his time? This is > so rare that I don't know of another case. > > -- Kirby > > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 14:28:05 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: class, the muted variable In-Reply-To: <40031977.2C2A99A9@delhi.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'd be careful about comparing class /gender situations in different cultures, as class is a more culturally-determined construct than gender esp. in Italy before the rise of futurism, when considering folks like Magritte together with the surrealists, and when you create a straw corporate heiress. admittedly, I am interested in lives and art of upper middle class women, especially as proponents of a "middle class" label the education and devotion to art, literature, and politics of these women transgressive while pushing a more conservative woman's role, such as one with a little money and a room, that shapes creative writing into, in effect, a congenial part time (35 hrs a week or less) day job such as those upper middle class women traditionally hold in antique stores, museums, auction houses, art galleries, and small needlepoint shops or some such these roles are both like the "angel of the house" Woolf identified and Woolf's "room" Rgds, Catherine Daly cadaly@pacbell.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 17:12:15 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brent Bechtel Subject: For an hour the past didn't seem to end. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For an hour the past didn't seem to end. How exhilarating it was to be in the world at a time when streets and girls caught the afternoon. Existentialists were made to carry the struggle, hungry for the beach and the moment Forgetting backwards because of flowers or overarching, crushed sympathy To make a place downstairs over the night sky -- "Solid" meant "distant" -- something to count the horse or in virtuous language, to impart a sign. I was thankful for both. [Brent Bechtel] ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 15:49:24 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Weishaus Subject: Re: Steven Shaviro's Connected & Sci-fi/SF MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert: The anomaly I find interesting in sci-fi is that hundreds of years into the future they are still using the same language, with a few technical words--warp drive, etc.--thrown in. As if languages themselves won't change! Of course we wouldn't understand a language of the future. So I suggest having the TV and films in subtitles, with the characters not speaking anything we can hear, because we wouldn't know what they are saying. Books are another problem. Any ideas? I suggest the idea reverse etymology is worth some serious thought. -Joel __________________________________ Joel Weishaus Visiting Faculty Department of English Portland State University Portland, Oregon Home: http://web.pdx.edu/~pdx00282 Online archive: www.unm.edu/~reality ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Corbett" To: Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 9:52 AM Subject: Re: Steven Shaviro's Connected & Sci-fi/SF > Hey Joel, > > Not all "sci-fi" readers are lefties. My evidenc: Norman > Spinrad, and for that matter the whole Star Trek series. Question: why > does the future always wear a uniform, accordingly to Hollywood. > > Robert > > -- > Robert Corbett, Ph.C. "Given the distance of communication, > Coordinator of New Programs I hope the words aren't idling on the > B40D Gerberding map of my fingertips, but igniting the > Phone: (206) 616-0657 wild acres within the probabilities of > Fax: (206) 685-3218 spelling" - Rosmarie Waldrop > UW Box: 351237 > > On Sun, 11 Jan 2004, Joel Weishaus wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Alan Sondheim" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2004 2:16 PM > > Subject: Re: Steven Shaviro's Connected & Sci-fi/SF > > > > > > >... > > >Statements which are almost true or theoretically moving, can build up, one > > after another, until a very problematic state occurs. > > > > Sounds like Bush's reasons for going to war. My theory is that the > > proportion of Americans bought the administration's story is [in]verse to > > those who read Sci-fi. > > > > -Joel > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 18:33:23 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: Sonnet In Blue Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed the foxes have gone hounds hunting instead a break of blue sky * bright blue also-rans are stacked toweringly on the counter * Virginia with her blue sky movements feverishly across the lake * gold hands cracking together & burning blue down where we've perched * there's the blue socketed from your chest, Virginia * well, picture a blue upset's tall kisses on today’s coat * plenty of colors to go around, but Blue has a lot on her plate * bottom-blue posture elided hopscotch colloquium * dewy lies fly from the foam: starrin' ring-around blue hollow * "how about BLUE vagaries?" * growl a blue havoc, sailing ship! * the horse would be so blue * reaching index of fingers die blue all across, small dearest sentinel * black flattened into blue this too is through... _________________________________________________________________ There are now three new levels of MSN Hotmail Extra Storage! Learn more. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=hotmail/es2&ST=1 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 18:14:35 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Mark Weiss/ audio blog on Tex Files Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Christine Murray's Texfiles poet of the week, Mark Weiss, is now enhanced by the presence of audio. Check him out at: http://www.texfiles.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 23:15:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brennen Lukas Subject: Brennen Blogs It Up In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There's some new stuff on my blogger tonight. For about the past year, I've been composing poetry directly onto the blog without really planning or editing. Somehow it makes me feel free. A little less pressure to be legitimate. A little more human. I'd appreciate your feedback if you have any. Peace, Brennen http://home.comcast.net/~blukas/hurt_blogger.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 00:10:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: earth blown out to stars MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII earth blown out to stars stars blown down to earth by fast cars baghdad and addresses of the invisible disappointing video looking better in double screen presentatino brilliance in the tao http://www.asondheim.org/tao.mov http://www.asondheim.org/tao2.mov something of the origin flies by on the highway the world unfolds sometimes there are stars or insects first particles of life the planetary vector trash flies down the highway we've done all we could on the planet we should kill ourselves when i hear what mister bush has done i am beside myself i cannot contain myself i can only hope these evils have everything bad happen to them i can only hope these evils have very bad tortures happen to them we will laugh with our children and our husbands and our wives ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 01:40:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: heartland MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII http://www.asondheim.org/heartland.jpg occurrence ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 00:01:55 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: REMINDER: CHAX and POG present Elizabeth Treadwell, Tuesday January 13 at BIBLIO MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit REMINDER POG and CHAX PRESS present: a poetry reading and book launch Elizabeth Treadwell Tuesday January 13 2004 7pm at Biblio bookstore 222 E. Congress Street Tucson, Arizona Admission: $5/$3 students for information call Chax Press at 620-1626 Elizabeth Treadwell lives with her family in Oakland, California. Her other books include Populace (Avec, 1999) and LILYFOIL + 3 (O Books, 2004). She directs Small Press Traffic in San Francisco. Chax Press announces a new book: CHANTRY, by Elizabeth Treadwell published in 2004, and available for the first time at this event. Chantry is song. Chantry is song that exceeds song structure in all dimensions to become invocation and enchantment. From “the vessel without a cover” to “late silhouette in / blue” it refuses to be contained, as a book wants to live outside its covers. ***** (from CHANTRY) distomap for the coded mountains, pale frontier, or the devotions for my sisters, Margaret & Carol “This faith was expressed using symbols of shaped metal, embroidered cloth, carved wood, and painted canvas.” —curator, San Xavier Mission, Tucson, Arizona, U.S.A. in a well-sought dream remember think of something plain like Grammy’s tears; think of something plain like the color and curvature of gingerale nightgown & bend & kink of patio, how the 3rd vowel of her name was scratched in. **************** This event is supported in part by the Tucson Pima Arts Council and by the Arizona Commission on the Arts with funding from the State of Arizona and the National Endowment for the Arts. mailto:tenney@dakotacom.net mailto:nathanso@u.arizona.edu http://www.u.arizona.edu/~nathanso/tn POG: mailto:pog@gopog.org http://www.gopog.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 01:29:04 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: August Highland Subject: UPCALL REMAPPING/AGGREGATE OBJECT Comments: To: spammers and flamers , regurgitation , killfilter , ink tank , imitation poetics , genre-splicing , full-throttle orginator , brain feeder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit UPCALL REMAPPING/AGGREGATE OBJECT Control Implicit Flow Edge #0000001: An opinion. destination application header. Eurogam. contributions is one of aching erection.. Merely, nature of this BBS the that I almost missed. Future it is appropiate time goes YOU HANG UP. THE DISK. ======================= SO REMEMBER, ALWAYS. Control Implicit Flow Edge #0000002: Zero. IT IS A PITY OUR OBJECT bible is a valid source. Dom~dom~dom~dom~dom, ><><><><><><><><><><>< FAT, THE LAMP-SHADES AND. Checksum: be addressed in the. (discarded), 3. fc + phone number on his. Breifly. as for your, "I would be so happy if Miscellaneous other. Control Implicit Flow Edge #0000003: Panties. bruce sender which is too big for the. Point & the corrected, for OTHER POSSIBILITY OF. _______________________, a lot fitter room and end. Transfer: xtp oo - 3.1.3 Passing. Uu many many FREEDOM TO GET A DIVORSE waiting for all. Control Implicit Flow Edge #0000004: We, currently=4 IHL: 4 bits hard to do.. Restrictions and caching, TIME PERIOD TO WRITE TO Ethernet standard see. It completely in climax as well, And advice from upper, MAKES SURE THE DISK IS hard cock against. Ffl application device my beliefs? (Leonard & ACK generated). Control Implicit Flow Edge #0000005: Dom~dom~dom~dom~dom may or may not conform. ~dom~dom~dom, no sorrow? VP 10. Abandon slave, What it can sendwhat it THAT LIKES TABS. I squeezed again. A. Pages for adc that Memory (e.g. same BWMS we knew and. Control Implicit Flow Edge #0000006: Consumption, you have no //////////////////////// ****************. Bible", accept this challenge the. Applications within the reflected the connection overall throughput. Information on either my, x div 10; c:=c+d fc + Connection orientated - 5 fuel on fire! %%[ Page: Filter forProcess 2. Control Implicit Flow Edge #0000007: Things max window size is PAM: Thank you. For example, on the, REMOVED: OCT all. 7 [[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[ maybe "utopia" isn't. What happened to the rigororus definition of obtain a copy of the. Moving the skin SINCE THE x:=x div 10; c:= c+d. Control Implicit Flow Edge #0000008: Inflation . but to, point to point links for Overhead of Other. But she explained that ///////////////////////. Numbers, transmitting How many countries have. Datadata checksumming raising that questions would help us. Pointers and infinite ***********************. Control Implicit Flow Edge #0000009: While you play conservatory from behind. Shortages, good roads we, communicate with a given wrapped her legs around. Proof has fewer lines Adaptor Memory Load W10, We produce, over the TO REFUTE THE IDEA THAT abstraction: sender. Care of themselves and, her mind and was. August Highland www.operation-nobel-prize.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 01:30:02 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: August Highland Subject: SHORT-TERM/SYN FLOODING DENIAL Comments: To: spammers and flamers , regurgitation , killfilter , ink tank , imitation poetics , genre-splicing , full-throttle orginator , brain feeder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit SHORT-TERM/SYN FLOODING DENIAL Zero Byte Protocol #0000001: Some l * PathMTU-40 if PathMTU. With out a hell of a derby's can be any immediately plus. To survive entry into TRACK RECORDS FOR THE FOREVER ON THIS, WITH. Obviously they have'nt! TCP CONNECTION SHUTDOWN, Confrontation is already, after the meal, users. As the system is. Zero Byte Protocol #0000002: Handshake (normal case): YOU'RE 100 of 122. Bytes, beginning with Democrats! For a long time and not, Also, performance of SUPPORTERS.. Too fast: three years, NESSISARY TO WARN YOU Welcome to BWMS (. The land of east. THESE ARE ALL PEOPLE THAT JERK. Zero Byte Protocol #0000003: Time: table DATA TRANSMISSION, III. Ofsequence numbers USES LESS THAN % OF. The japanese do what close eventually receiver. Lovers now seemed a * delay may permit helps but it's. Around openpgp. you (or, THE RUBOUT DESCRIPTION would. Zero Byte Protocol #0000004: To do in order to limit, offered up by some segment. Error'' (re-ordering) (must be zero) She smiled at me.. Embargo, but inflation bysetting bit 8 (to data until connection is. Unwilling to raise taxes, * goal: ensure that once saw a chart. No value in being when SURE FEELS GOOD WHEN. Zero Byte Protocol #0000005: Are gone before any new, VS COAL. THAT WAS ////////////////////////. While and then GET THEM THE HELL OUT OF program) could. 0 a trivial, PERSONAL FREEDOM. THAT drops. Data) same port number for. Algorithm: acceptable if ONE SECOND, BUT IF YOU. Zero Byte Protocol #0000006: A politician can do to I To ensure no data. Connections using the Anon: Perhaps a pres sends ack(advertising. Is largerthan cwnd)2. of development -- indicate. Checksum & ethernet crc the current incident, Reagan was. Drwxrwxr-x 2 adulau connection until MSL has ACKNUM=X+1. Zero Byte Protocol #0000007: Interference that went 1. sender includes 32- PEOPLE TO HEAD. Benzene, or carbon, BAD, AND TO SHOW THAT WE to. Accountability for name. That a low orbit ensure that two BOTH PRIMARY AND. Andmnh.( and receipt (Also, use timeout in. Zero Byte Protocol #0000008: Receiver quickly drains, HIS silly window syndrome. /////////bad\\\\\\\\\\\, 36 of 122 THE ABORTION LAWS ARE. More than 500ms(bsd ovnzF0HDCujvJ/CWl43QZ3c=. I can receive it refining facility.. Pounding clitoris. jenn, constraint aware that this is even. Zero Byte Protocol #0000009: At first, you should for messages and UDP PSEUDO-HEADER Pseudo. Into her, moaning as he, means 1st AVERAGE HUMAN. Must be protected by connections using the 1. drop fewer packets -- Just about everything he to expect o any person, Disk will be installed by its endpoints. August Highland www.operation-nobel-prize.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 05:57:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mairead Byrne Subject: Re: Brennen Blogs It Up Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Dear Brennen, I've just visited your blog briefly and enjoyed it. Will go for a more = extended visit later. Though with time going so fast now by the time I'm = finished this cup of tea it will be March! I can connect with what you = say about writing on the blog. I don't compose directly onto it but it is = a core part of my daily writing practice. Good times, eh? Mairead www.maireadbyrne.blogspot.com >>> blukas@COMCAST.NET 01/12/04 23:10 PM >>> There's some new stuff on my blogger tonight. For about the past year, I've been composing poetry directly onto the blog without really planning or editing. Somehow it makes me feel free. A little less pressure to be legitimate. A little more human. I'd appreciate your feedback if you have any. Peace, Brennen http://home.comcast.net/~blukas/hurt_blogger.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 06:25:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mairead Byrne Subject: Re: Brennen Blogs It Up Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Sorry guys, I meant this for Brennen. Early morning autopilot! Vive la = poesie! Mairead www.maireadbyrne.blogspot.com >>> mbyrne@RISD.EDU 01/13/04 06:00 AM >>> Dear Brennen, I've just visited your blog briefly and enjoyed it. Will go for a more = extended visit later. Though with time going so fast now by the time I'm = finished this cup of tea it will be March! I can connect with what you = say about writing on the blog. I don't compose directly onto it but it is = a core part of my daily writing practice. Good times, eh? Mairead www.maireadbyrne.blogspot.com >>> blukas@COMCAST.NET 01/12/04 23:10 PM >>> There's some new stuff on my blogger tonight. For about the past year, I've been composing poetry directly onto the blog without really planning or editing. Somehow it makes me feel free. A little less pressure to be legitimate. A little more human. I'd appreciate your feedback if you have any. Peace, Brennen http://home.comcast.net/~blukas/hurt_blogger.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 06:40:47 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: Steven Shaviro's Connected & Sci-fi/SF In-Reply-To: <001a01c3d966$b6300dc0$80fdfc83@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >Robert: > >The anomaly I find interesting in sci-fi is that hundreds of years into the >future they are still using the same language, with a few technical >words--warp drive, etc.--thrown in. As if languages themselves won't change! >Of course we wouldn't understand a language of the future. So I suggest >having the TV and films in subtitles, with the characters not speaking >anything we can hear, because we wouldn't know what they are saying. Books >are another problem. Any ideas? > >I suggest the idea reverse etymology is worth some serious thought. > >-Joel > Novels written in English that are set in foreign countries often have all of their dialogue in the English spoken by the author. This is what makes them English language novels. With the exception of books about biblical stories in which the dialog is often in the English of the King James version of the bible, most historical novels in English are usually written in the language contemporary to the author's time rather than the time of the story. The same is usually true for movies produced in English as well. Why should science fiction be any different? This may not be "realistic," but most "realism" isn't, anyway. -- Herb Levy P O Box 9369 Fort Worth, TX 76147 herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 09:13:36 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brent Bechtel Subject: I think of words. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think of words like rubber-banded lobsters in a supermarket aquarium, slowly nudging over one another, bubbles rising from their stony heads - or like breeding sea monkeys, froth and pink and many. Then there are the images of coral reefs - explorers and mini- submarines boiling to the surface with caches of artifacts and living sponges. Sometimes I climb into my unruly bed - and the manta rays cover my face and take all of my vowels away. [Brent Bechtel] ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 10:40:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marc Nasdor Subject: Spalding Gray reported missing In-Reply-To: <200401122110.1aGgPj5qm3NZFji0@eagle> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Actor Spalding Gray Is Missing By SABRINA TAVERNISE Published: January 13, 2004 Spalding Gray, the monologist, actor and raconteur of "Swimming to Cambodia" fame, was reported missing by his wife Sunday night, police officials said yesterday. The disappearance of Mr. Gray was of particular concern to the authorities. Mr. Gray, 62, had a history of depression, was taking medication, the police said, and had attempted suicide in 2002. His wife, Kathleen Russo, declined to talk when reached at their New York City apartment last night. She said simply that she had been waiting for information about Mr. Gray. Mr. Gray's older brother, Rockwell Gray, an English professor at Washington University in St. Louis, said he had learned of the disappearance yesterday morning from Ms. Russo. He said that he had last seen his brother around Christmas, and that he had seemed down at the time. "I wouldn't say he was in a happy state," Rockwell Gray said by telephone from Missouri. But, "it wasn't unusual. He's been in a fairly depressed condition for some time." As for previous disappearances, Mr. Gray's brother said that they were "to the best of my knowledge, not something quite like this." Detectives were canvassing hospitals last night, providing Mr. Gray's description and checking unidentified people. Mr. Gray lives in North Haven, Long Island, but also has an apartment at 22 Wooster Street in New York City. One block south of the apartment building is the Wooster Group, the experimental theater Mr. Gray helped found in 1977 with Elizabeth LaCompte. Scott Shepherd, 35, an actor at the theater, said he had last seen Mr. Gray in December during one of the group's performances. "He's been in bad shape for a while since that car accident," Mr. Shepherd said, referring to an accident in Ireland in 2001. In North Haven, a young boy in pajamas was seen lighting candles in three windows of Mr. Gray's two-story, paneled wood house last night. http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/13/nyregion/13gray.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 07:52:52 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Weishaus Subject: Re: Steven Shaviro's Connected & Sci-fi/SF MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Robert: > > > >The anomaly I find interesting in sci-fi is that hundreds of years into the > >future they are still using the same language, with a few technical > >words--warp drive, etc.--thrown in. As if languages themselves won't change! > >Of course we wouldn't understand a language of the future. So I suggest > >having the TV and films in subtitles, with the characters not speaking > >anything we can hear, because we wouldn't know what they are saying. Books > >are another problem. Any ideas? > > > >I suggest the idea reverse etymology is worth some serious thought. > > > >-Joel > > > > Novels written in English that are set in foreign countries often > have all of their dialogue in the English spoken by the author. This > is what makes them English language novels. > > With the exception of books about biblical stories in which the > dialog is often in the English of the King James version of the > bible, most historical novels in English are usually written in the > language contemporary to the author's time rather than the time of > the story. The same is usually true for movies produced in English as > well. > > Why should science fiction be any different? This may not be > "realistic," but most "realism" isn't, anyway. Sci-fi films and TV shows are usually not narrated. Foreign films are usually subtitled or dubbed. Shakespeare is in Elizabethan English. Books can be read in their original language. "Why should science fiction be any different?" is a joke, right? -Joel ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 08:07:47 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Corbett Subject: Re: Steven Shaviro's Connected & Sci-fi/SF In-Reply-To: <003f01c3d9ed$4e4495a0$95fdfc83@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Yes, sci-fi obeys the formal convention that all historical and set-in-places-where-they-don't-speak-English novels in that the significant dialogue is in English. What is surprising or defamiliarizing is when it is not (thus, "Prague" a mildly amusing recent Americans abroad novel, has characters mangle Hungarian as well as speak in English, as though in tribute to novelistic monoglotism). There have been ambitious attempts to forgo this convention. I think of "Clockwork Orange" and "Riddley Walker," but also the entirety of Ursula K. LeGuin's work (but especially "Always Coming Home") and Frank Herbert in the Dune series. Even the evolution of "Klingon" is some recognition of the absurdity of "English spoken here." Douglas Adams, as always, had the ideal solution with the Babel Fish, the animal that ate words and excreted translations. Robert -- Robert Corbett, Ph.C. "Given the distance of communication, Coordinator of New Programs I hope the words aren't idling on the B40D Gerberding map of my fingertips, but igniting the Phone: (206) 616-0657 wild acres within the probabilities of Fax: (206) 685-3218 spelling" - Rosmarie Waldrop UW Box: 351237 On Tue, 13 Jan 2004, Joel Weishaus wrote: > > >Robert: > > > > > >The anomaly I find interesting in sci-fi is that hundreds of years into > the > > >future they are still using the same language, with a few technical > > >words--warp drive, etc.--thrown in. As if languages themselves won't > change! > > >Of course we wouldn't understand a language of the future. So I suggest > > >having the TV and films in subtitles, with the characters not speaking > > >anything we can hear, because we wouldn't know what they are saying. > Books > > >are another problem. Any ideas? > > > > > >I suggest the idea reverse etymology is worth some serious thought. > > > > > >-Joel > > > > > > > Novels written in English that are set in foreign countries often > > have all of their dialogue in the English spoken by the author. This > > is what makes them English language novels. > > > > With the exception of books about biblical stories in which the > > dialog is often in the English of the King James version of the > > bible, most historical novels in English are usually written in the > > language contemporary to the author's time rather than the time of > > the story. The same is usually true for movies produced in English as > > well. > > > > Why should science fiction be any different? This may not be > > "realistic," but most "realism" isn't, anyway. > > Sci-fi films and TV shows are usually not narrated. Foreign films are > usually subtitled or dubbed. Shakespeare is in Elizabethan English. Books > can be read in their original language. "Why should science fiction be any > different?" is a joke, right? > > -Joel > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 10:08:59 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew Lundwall Subject: kenji siratori and andrew lundwall team up Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed kenji siratori (author of the mind-blowingly visionary cyberpunk novel: Blood Electric) and i have recently written a collaborative poem, "the dance-floor@brain universe," which can be found here: http://www.poeticinhalation.com/brainuniverse.html _________________________________________________________________ High-speed users—be more efficient online with the new MSN Premium Internet Software. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=byoa/prem&ST=1 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 10:43:28 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: Steven Shaviro's Connected & Sci-fi/SF In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here's a couple links to lists of constructed languages, the overwhelming majority of the languages are created for speculative, fantasy & sf. http://www2.cmp.uea.ac.uk/~jrk/conlang.html http://www.quetzal.com/conlang.html > > There have been ambitious attempts to forgo this convention. I think > of > "Clockwork Orange" and "Riddley Walker," but also the entirety of > Ursula > K. LeGuin's work (but especially "Always Coming Home") and Frank > Herbert > in the Dune series. Even the evolution of "Klingon" is some recognition > of the absurdity of "English spoken here." Douglas Adams, as always, > had > the ideal solution with the Babel Fish, the animal that ate words and > excreted translations. > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 12:12:43 -0500 Reply-To: "shannacompton@earthlink.net" Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "shannacompton@earthlink.net" Subject: Re: Steven Shaviro's Connected & Sci-fi/SF Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Poet Christian Bok has invented Taelon and other languages for Earth: Final Conflict and Amazon (both Gene Roddenbarry). -----Original Message----- From: mIEKAL aND Sent: Jan 13, 2004 11:43 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Steven Shaviro's Connected & Sci-fi/SF Here's a couple links to lists of constructed languages, the overwhelming majority of the languages are created for speculative, fantasy & sf. http://www2.cmp.uea.ac.uk/~jrk/conlang.html http://www.quetzal.com/conlang.html > > There have been ambitious attempts to forgo this convention. I think > of > "Clockwork Orange" and "Riddley Walker," but also the entirety of > Ursula > K. LeGuin's work (but especially "Always Coming Home") and Frank > Herbert > in the Dune series. Even the evolution of "Klingon" is some recognition > of the absurdity of "English spoken here." Douglas Adams, as always, > had > the ideal solution with the Babel Fish, the animal that ate words and > excreted translations. > _____________________________ Shanna Compton http://www.shannacompton.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 11:35:07 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: Steven Shaviro's Connected & Sci-fi/SF In-Reply-To: <003f01c3d9ed$4e4495a0$95fdfc83@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >Sci-fi films and TV shows are usually not narrated. Foreign films are >usually subtitled or dubbed. Shakespeare is in Elizabethan English. Books >can be read in their original language. "Why should science fiction be any >different?" is a joke, right? > >-Joel Joel, >"Why should science fiction be any different?" is a joke, right? is a joke, right? In Shakespeare's plays the characters do indeed speak Elizabethan English, regardless of whether they live in Elizabethan England, Venice, Verona, ancient Greece, Rome or Egypt or anywhere else Shakespeare set his plays. If somehow, Shakespeare had written a play about American Beatniks it's very difficult to believe that he would have gotten the slang right or that he would have chosen to present the play with speaking "because [he] wouldn't know what they were saying." He would use the language that he and his audience understood. In, for example, a Polish film or book like Saragossa Manuscript, which takes place in Spain, the characters all speak Polish, the language of the author and film makers and the original audience for the book and the movie. For the most part, that's what writers, playwrights and film makers do and always have done. It is possible to do something other than this. Robert Corbett, mIEKAL aND, & Shannan Compton note some exceptions to this convention and there are others (one could include works like Finnegans Wake in this category), but as an accountant might say, it's "generally accepted practice" to write in a language you know and that your expected audience knows. Would the kind of science fiction film without audible dialog that you suggested earlier necessarily be a better solution to our not knowing what characters in the future would be saying? I ask again, why should science fiction be any different? Bests, Herb -- Herb Levy P O Box 9369 Fort Worth, TX 76147 herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 12:52:15 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Craig Allen Conrad Subject: Re: class, the muted variable MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Catherine Daly wrote: <<>> Dear Catherine, my feeling is that, yes, class is constructed in different ways in different cultures, but so are all forms of relationships between people in different cultures. having worked for many years in retail in super-rich neighborhoods in Philadelphia, i've heard constant wide-eyed amazements, "Ooh, but in Barcelona the women..." "In Italy, they have more..." and what i heard most in the comparing/contrasting was how much better it was being done elsewhere, usually in Europe. maybe they're right, i don't know. (and of course the thing that always made me want to scream is when they'd talk about the "common people" and how kind they were and what good cooks they were, in other words, why do we have such pigs over here in our ghettos? but that's another discussion, for another time) but while i understand class may be constructed in different ways in different cultures, there are still some pretty basic things going on, no matter where you are. such as, the poor do all the fucking work, and those with money and/or property get the poor to do it as close to free as they can manage. India for instance has it built right into the religion. the caste system is a rich man's paradise. that's their system. in America religion of course also has its way of making the poor feel like Jesus is on their side. i have relatives in Iowa who are so poor that hunting season isn't a sport, it's a way to save on the grocery bill, but they STILL vote for Bush anyway, because he says Jesus all the fucking time whenever he can fit the name in. and this, regardless of how many tax cuts he'll make for the rich. let's face it, Jesus didn't say that we should unionize and redistribute wealth, he said the poor are there, and will always be there, and the meek shall inherit. shall inherit when they die, of course. faith is an upper class boon if you ask me. but one of the things i always find important when i go to documentary footage, of, let's say the Chavez film for instance, and what's going on in Venezuela, is that it's always the workers, or the poor people who are talking who seem to have the same kinds of needs to be met, and the same kinds of complaints about how and why those needs are not being met. when i say same, i mean, it's the same all over the world, these needs: water, food, jobs, health care. in the film THE BIG ONE (one of the only post-NAFTA documentaries that i know of), the factory workers in the parking lots of their now closed factories are saying many of the same things, talking about basic needs and how they are going to vanish unless they find some way of scrambling for more work. there's even interviews with Borders Bookstore employees with college degrees who are talking about the very same things. and our corporate owned media does a pretty spiffy job at pretending that slavery is a thing of the past. in nearly every country in the world you can find slaves. in America we are actually, according to National Geographic of all sources, leading the "western world" in slavery. we have the largest numbers of sweatshops in our own country, and we have an enormous number of women in the sex industry against their will (the largest number of which are Russian these days). the cruelty of our time brought on by economics, in one way or another, probably can get worse. but while the corporations are teaming up to build their global alliances, so are the workers, all over the world, right now. one such group that is bringing the world's women together in this struggle is The Global Women's Strike. i'm helping organize an event/benefit for their activities on International Women's Day (March 8) with my friend Mary Kalyna at the Bowery Poetry Club on Feb. 22nd from 3 to 6pm. for more information on The Global Women's Strike: http://www.globalwomenstrike.net CAConrad http://phillysound.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 13:05:49 -0500 Reply-To: Geoffrey Gatza Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Geoffrey Gatza Subject: poet's cat detained as Illegal Combatant at GITMO Comments: cc: Forthgone@aol.com, Donna , Gary Sullivan , Ron , sandy baldwin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable B l a z e V O X = 2k4 = www.blazevox.org POETRY AVANT GARDE =20 + Steve Timm + Duane Esposito + Christopher Janke + W.B. Keckler + Ben = Lyle Bedard + theodore knapsack=20 + Jukka-Pekka Kervinen + G. V. St. Thomasino + Michael Ruby + Doug = Draime + Jorge Lucio de Campos=20 + John G. Hall + Harriet Zinnes + Michael Farrell + Chris Stroffolino + = Gerburg Garmann www.blazevox.org FREE ebooks Bhang by Ted Pelton [fiction] || Wetland by Francis Raven || = [#1-#46] Jukka-Pekka Kervinen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 18:12:44 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: roger.day@GLOBALGRAPHICS.COM Subject: Re: Steven Shaviro's Connected & Sci-fi/SF MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii When US and English films venture outside their language sphere (not a winner at the box-office, I might add), I don't think the English pressed on the Actors is actually English. Some actually try to mimic the target language in that funny-sounding voice and syntax in some cases. Take "The Odessa File", for example. Jon Voight has that little mittel-european, somewhere east of the Rhine accent which really gets on my nerves. I don't think he really needed it. OTOH, Sean Connery always plays a scotsman, even when manning a russkie sub. In other words, it matters to some but I can't understand the motivation. In the polish film you mention, do the spanish characters speak with some sort of polish idea of a spanish accent/syntax? Herb Levy To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent by: UB Poetics cc: discussion group Subject: Re: Steven Shaviro's Connected & Sci-fi/SF 13/01/2004 17:35 Please respond to UB Poetics discussion group >Sci-fi films and TV shows are usually not narrated. Foreign films are >usually subtitled or dubbed. Shakespeare is in Elizabethan English. Books >can be read in their original language. "Why should science fiction be any >different?" is a joke, right? > >-Joel Joel, >"Why should science fiction be any different?" is a joke, right? is a joke, right? In Shakespeare's plays the characters do indeed speak Elizabethan English, regardless of whether they live in Elizabethan England, Venice, Verona, ancient Greece, Rome or Egypt or anywhere else Shakespeare set his plays. If somehow, Shakespeare had written a play about American Beatniks it's very difficult to believe that he would have gotten the slang right or that he would have chosen to present the play with speaking "because [he] wouldn't know what they were saying." He would use the language that he and his audience understood. In, for example, a Polish film or book like Saragossa Manuscript, which takes place in Spain, the characters all speak Polish, the language of the author and film makers and the original audience for the book and the movie. For the most part, that's what writers, playwrights and film makers do and always have done. It is possible to do something other than this. Robert Corbett, mIEKAL aND, & Shannan Compton note some exceptions to this convention and there are others (one could include works like Finnegans Wake in this category), but as an accountant might say, it's "generally accepted practice" to write in a language you know and that your expected audience knows. Would the kind of science fiction film without audible dialog that you suggested earlier necessarily be a better solution to our not knowing what characters in the future would be saying? I ask again, why should science fiction be any different? Bests, Herb -- Herb Levy P O Box 9369 Fort Worth, TX 76147 herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 14:04:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Gottlieb Subject: Gottlieb, Mulroney and Coletti Reading in Cambridge this Saturday In-Reply-To: <200401130504.i0D54Cfg020668@mta1.snet.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Michael Gottlieb, John Mulroney and John Coletti will be reading at Wordsworth Books this coming Saturday, Jan. 17 at 5:00 PM. Wordsworth Books is located in Harvard Square at 30 Brattle Street. We look forward to seeing everyone! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 11:28:06 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: class, the muted variable In-Reply-To: <169.28a55587.2d358a4f@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How relevant is "workers of the world unite"? And how different that is from "women of the world unite"! Are there some pretty basic things going on? I'm not convinced; I'm also not convinced "workers" are the only ones working. Not just workers need food and health care. Clothing seems more of an option in some of the more temperate climates where most of the clothing that American workers purchase is sewn by indentured servants and essentially slave laborers, but hey. I am privileged by my economic status to not have to purchase cheap tshirts at Wal Mart. This is reinforced by my social class -- I don't have occasion to shop at wal mart and I don't have occasion to purchase and wear many tshirts. It isn't as though no Brahmins work. Lots of Brahmins run restaurants, which, in my experience, offer a wide range of pretty cruddy jobs. In India, where I lived for not very long, and in Indian companies (worked for one of those for a brief period too), there were plenty of poor Brahmins, they were just the top of the caste system. While Brahmins don't generally clean out latrines, frankly, I don't either. Class considerations around social ceremonies -- and elections are those, certainly, just as state-sanctioned marriages are, for example -- effect people differently in different places and times. To carry understandings of the operations of class derived from present-day US Protestantism back to the society in which the Catholic church is centered (say, the area around Rome) in the early 20th Century, or even back to Protestant Switzerland and Germany in the same time period, seems like entering a hall of mirrors to me. I read _A Room of One's Own_ again last night after the previous posts (tho I teach it and had to reread anyway). I was particularly distressed by the passages wishing some old battle axe had worked to achieve a great fortune which could endow scholarships and fellowships for Woolf. All best, Catherine Daly cadaly@pacbell.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 13:24:07 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: Re: class, the muted variable/"no class" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed It is interesting to read these notes as i discovered on the news one night, in a survey of various claasses in the USA and also survey of the various classes in relation to the current economy--it was said that left out of the survey where the people of the underclass, a sort of dark area left to themselves and not a part of "society". A "non-" or "no"-class-- The "worthless" so to speak-- In the past few years this is the shadow world have lived in. The world of people on SSI, SSD, on the streets, or in free housing, transitional living, various shleters--the free meals, the pantries, the chruch, the free clothing places, the aid societies, public detox, shelters, various medical aid forms and bureaucracies. One doesn't have a real identity in one way and on the other hand an identity constructed of the various programs and places one has been in--the prison system, the welfare system, the treatment system, the couselling/psychiatric system, the system for recovery users, the sytem for battered women, the one for anger management, the parenting sytems, the courts, an endless series of sytems that in each has a set of documents that make you that which in there dwells, in other's words . . . The Federal. State and County systems--case workers, payees, Homestead Act-- The papers one signs--the phamplets, the posters-- Medical checkups-- Tests-- Ward of the County for those who would die otherwise-- Have made a study of the art found in all these buildings . . . Also the signs: Healthcare & Shelter for the Homeless: (free room and board, mice ridden rooms, sharing a building with the elderly, the insane, crack haeds, drunks on the sly--) WHAT IS NOT IN WRITING NEVER HAPPENED working with literacy programs, helping people with endless documents . . . at the probation parole office--with the bullet proof glass to sign in through--the metal detetctors to walk through and on the wall for the sullen waiting figures: AS A COURTESY TO TO OTHERS PLEASE REMOVE ALL HEAD GEAR Central City streets . . .where the buildings are for the recovering dope fiends and drunks, for the elderly, the insane--walking out the door into insanity--the walking dead, the dope man, the sidewalk preacher, the hos on the move-- Small wonder no on walks along to take a survey-- a world left to itself-- only hooked into society via bureaucracy-- and continual cutbacks-- in this world one can work--painting, visual poetry, mail art, poetry, essays-- using cheapest materials and working in alleys, streets or tiny room-- no care for isms or definitions-- all one has to do is produce ID cards, medical and food cards, letter from the so-and so in charge . . proof of address-- living in a different country within the country-- just take the bus and you will see-- anythying can be used to make a poem (Wcw)-- "Refuse/Refuse"--ref-use/RE-fuse-- thank goodness for free email! onwo/ards david-baptiste >From: Catherine Daly >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: class, the muted variable >Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 14:28:05 -0800 > >I'd be careful about comparing class /gender situations in different >cultures, as class is a more culturally-determined construct than gender > >esp. in Italy before the rise of futurism, > >when considering folks like Magritte together with the surrealists, > >and when you create a straw corporate heiress. > >admittedly, I am interested in lives and art of upper middle class >women, especially as proponents of a "middle class" label the education >and devotion to art, literature, and politics of these women >transgressive > >while pushing a more conservative woman's role, such as one with a >little money and a room, that shapes creative writing into, in effect, a >congenial part time (35 hrs a week or less) day job such as those upper >middle class women traditionally hold in antique stores, museums, >auction houses, art galleries, and small needlepoint shops or some such > >these roles are both like the "angel of the house" Woolf identified and >Woolf's "room" > >Rgds, >Catherine Daly >cadaly@pacbell.net _________________________________________________________________ Let the new MSN Premium Internet Software make the most of your high-speed experience. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=byoa/prem&ST=1 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 16:33:07 -0330 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Hehir Subject: Anti Bush ads MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Dear friend of Bush in 30 Seconds, The winning ads in our Bush in 30 Seconds ad contest will be announced tonight, live from the awards show at the Hammerstein Ballroom in New York City. The awards show is going to be hosted by Jeanine Garofalo and will feature performances and presentations by Margaret Cho, Chuck D, Al Franken, Moby, Michael Moore, John Sayles, Julia Stiles, and Rufus Wainwright. It should be a really fun night -- music, comedy, and lots of incredible 30-second ads. If you'd like to tune in, the event will be webcast live, beginning at 8p EST/5p PST. We'll be announcing the winners around 10:45pm EST. To tune in to the webcast and view the winning ads after they're announced, just go to: http://www.bushin30seconds.org/ Already, the Bush in 30 Seconds contest has brought tens of thousands of new people into MoveOn, generated millions of dollars' worth of free publicity, and put us in touch with some tremendously talented people. Please join us for the grand finale tonight on the Bush in 30 Seconds website. Sincerely, --Adam, Carrie, Eli, James, Joan, Noah, Peter, Wes, and Zack The MoveOn.org Team January 12th, 2003 P.S. In case you'd like to tune in, ABC's Good Morning America will also be doing a live interview with the winner and me, Eli Pariser, tomorrow morning between 7am and 9am. P.P.S. Here are excerpts from two great articles on the contest -- one from the L.A. Times and one from the Associated Press -- that were published in the last few days: TV AD CONTEST TARGETS PRESIDENT By John M. Glionna, Times Staff Writer http://www.moveon.org/r?478 "Fourteen in all, the TV spots aim to depict the anger and frustration many Democrats harbor toward the Bush administration. But they're not the work of any slick political ad firms - they're finalists in a nationwide contest sponsored by MoveOn.org, a popular Internet-based political action group. . . The MoveOn.org contest spotlights the aggressive and uncharted role special interest groups not linked to either party are expected to play in the 2004 presidential campaign. Some say it also shows how such Internet-based groups could contribute to the spread of unfiltered messages in American politics." (It's MoveOn.org Voter Fund, not MoveOn.org, by the way, which sponsored the contest -- we've asked the Times for a correction.) MOVEON.ORG BECOMES ANTI-BUSH ONLINE POWERHOUSE by Beth Fouhy, Associated Press http://www.moveon.org/r?479 "Chances are, Democratic Party consultants won't take credit for the hardest-hitting anti-Bush ad to air on network TV this month. That honor will likely go MoveOn.org, an online group that has become too potent for establishment politicians to ignore. Years before Howard Dean's use of the Internet dazzled analysts and propelled him to the front of the 2004 Democratic presidential field, MoveOn paved the way, evolving in six short years from something of a cybergeek forum to arguably the largest and most forceful voice in digital-era politics. MoveOn's latest campaign, which invited people to create their own anti-Bush ads, generated more than 1,500 entries. Hundreds of thousands of wired MoveOn members voted on the most effective, and the 15 most popular will be judged Monday night at a gala event in New York City by celebrities including Michael Moore, Janeane Garofalo and the rap group Public Enemy, and the winner will air the same week President Bush gives his State of the Union address." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Subscription Management This is a message from MoveOn.org on behalf of the MoveOn.org Voter Fund. To remove yourself (Allan) from this list, please visit our subscription management page at: http://moveon.org/s?i=2249-3480477-s0sJeD13fDbaaSq_sdV6nw --^---------------------------------------------------------------- This email was sent to: khehir@cs.mun.ca EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?bUrGRA.bVboig.a2hlaGly Or send an email to: stjohnsftaa-unsubscribe@topica.com TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^---------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 15:13:02 -0500 Reply-To: olsonjk@delhi.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kirby Olson Organization: SUNY Delhi Subject: Re: class, the muted variable MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Catherine Daly, some of your references were lost to me. I wasn't even sure if you were responding to me or to someone else. I suppose my suspicion of the left categories (both description and prescription) began in 1974 when I started taking LSD with a bunch of friends after one night Allen Ginsberg appeared on a talk show with a witty guy -- not David Frost -- he has a pointy face -- and said that if you took LSD you could talk to God. We pooled our money and took a bunch of it. After a month or so three of my five friends had gone nuts, and one wanted to go into the CIA. I myself felt loony for about two years. During that time more and more of my friends died of heroin overdoses and so on. So that was my first sense that the left could have a bad prescription for a problem that they perceived. I think Ginsberg thought people were too rational in America. So they needed to go crazy. there was this idea that if you took drugs you would become permanently cool. At any rate, Ginsberg killed the best minds in my high school. Those guys never recovered. I did, but I am still a little out there. As for feminism, and Simone de Beauvoir. You've read it I'm sure. Her chapter on Breton? She attacks Breton for giving Nadja the role of Love, and no other profession. It's worse than this. Breton loved her because she was nuts. At the end of the book he goes on and on about how the medical establishment is responsible. In fact, she's nuts, and she has no resources. Her family barely knows where she is, and she's left her child alone in a hotel room while she goes out hooking. (It's a somewhat occluded fact in the story that she is a hooker, and that Breton is paying her for her time, and that he is also sleeping with her.) All my friends in high school who died came from flakey families. My mom and dad bailed me out, and set me straight, as they did for the one other guy in my gang who survived our drug escapades. The women in our gang also went nuts. Some turned into prostitutes, some od'd, and some are now still alive, but alcoholic, and unable to function for the most part. The only ones who survived had strong families. I think this is what women need, and certainly what children need -- a family that they can count on. What else is there? The ultra-poor often don't have this safety net. I'm not sure about the homeless. Nadja is more or less in that category. She ended up in an asylum until she died in 1946. Her records remain sealed, so there is no way to know her side of the story as of yet. What worries me about feminism is that it has driven a wedge between men and women such that it is much easier to divorce. Has this been good for women? Maybe not. Many of the poorest women are single-mothers. It's a terrible situation. I'm interested in somehow figuring out how to create durable families. I think the left keeps offering up bizarre ideas -- now it's Deleuze saying that everybody should go crazy, or Foucault saying that people in mental institutions should all be let out. I am not sure if Thorazine has allowed people to become stable, but Nadja -- ultra-poor, and without any family at all, and out hooking to make ends meet, and also involved in the drug trade. It wasn't her gender so much that wiped her out, it was her poverty and lack of stable social connections. She may have also had some kind of chemical imbalance. But if you think of John Clare, mentioned yesterday -- he was pretty stable in the beginning but overwork destroyed his mind, apparently. The ultra-poor, epsecially if they are talented, go nuts. So I don't think that gender or race are impediments to writing. We have great and important women writers -- Jane Austen -- the best novelist of the 19th century, Marianne Moore -- the most interesting of the modernist poets, and we have many upper-class writers of color -- for example the marvelous Marcellin brothers of Haiti who wrote such wonderful novels. But it's very rare for a person of the extreme lower classes to write. Class is a real impediment, and almost insuperable. Race, gender, class. These are some variables, of which I htink the last is the most important and the least discussed. Another variable is -- Do you have a mother and father that you can count on? People with alcoholic partners, or alcoholic parents. These people are in for a very hard life. I often feel that race and gender are red herrings. It's family, and sobriety, and a sense that life has meaning that needs to be rebuilt. If we choose the wrong issues to focus on, or get the wrong prescription (as Ginsberg did with LSD), a lot of people die. The sexual revolution has killed hundreds of thousands. I think that the sixties gave us all kinds of answers. None of those answers have paid out for my generation. The only thing I still accept from the sixties is lava lamps. They are a marvelous waste of a few minutes, or a nice thing to have if you are an insomniac, like me. But what we need to do to somehow cure the state of the ultra-poor is to try and make it possible for families to stay together. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's been my understanding, and most of our radical politics have driven a wedge into families. The sexual revolution, the use of drugs as a means of life enhancement, the rise of divorce as a way to settle a dispute, the sense that men and women are somehow natural enemies instead of natural friends, etc. -- Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 15:39:03 -0500 Reply-To: olsonjk@delhi.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kirby Olson Organization: SUNY Delhi Subject: Re: Creeley MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Kirby Olson wrote: > There was the great message from Steven Shoemaker yesterday that I was > unable to respond to because I wanted to discuss class -- Steven was > talking about the Kalevala as a source of myth and meter and even > language for Tolkein and Tennyson. What was most curious to me was the > issue of meter. Kalevala, he says, was based on trochaic tetrameter. > It's been so long since I've heard anybody talk of meter that the terms > had slipped out of my head. A trochee is a metrical foot consisting of > one long syllable followed by one short syllable, or a stressed syllable > followed by an unstressed (ex. apple) -- from Webster's Collegiate and > tetrameter -- a line consisting of four metrical feet (each foot could > consist of iambic, trochaic, or anapestic verse) -- Webster's again > > I was going to ask Anselm how natural it would sound to the Finnish ear > to have this specific duration for a line. > > In Shakespeare you had iambic pentameter as the basis, and at least some > scholars have claimed that that was based on how Elizabethan English was > spoken. > > Then WCW had the idea of the variable foot -- which as I recall was > three beats in a line -- more or less -- but what feet they consisted of > could vary. > > James Brown's song -- > > Hot pants > Hot pants > Gonna make you dance > > -- seems to consist however of a variable two beats -- two spondees and > then Gonna almost disappears and "make" and "dance" are shouted. > > So we have in a poem that content -- often political I suppose are meant > to make a point of some sort these days -- and the form -- ever so > rarely discussed it seems to me. Ron Silliman opened the question of > Moore's syllabification in his blog. Was her choice arbitrary? Has > anybody else > ever tried to continue what she was doing with that? Has anybody written > about this choice she made? When I read criticism on Moore it is always > about content, so Ron's blog interested me. Meanwhile, I got a > very good note on meaning in Creeley's work which I append (nobody has > spoken of Creeley's metrics, but I am assuming it is the breath-line > that Charles Olson discusses? Does Creeley ever depart from that? Does > he have a treatise on meter somewhere. The following note really showed > me some specific ideas about Creeley that are deeply appreciated -- > > Stephen Baraban wrote: > > > Dear Kirby, > > > > As a lurker on the Buffalo list, and as someone who > > admires your refreshing manner of challenging people's > > assumptions, let me say this about Creeley & the > > specific Creeley poems you've questioned: > > > > NAMES > > > > Harry has written > > all he knows. > > Miriam tells > > her thought, Peter > > says again > > his mind. Robert and John, > > William, Tom, > > and Helen, Ethel, > > that woman whose name > > he can't remember > > or she even him > > says to tell > > all they know. > > (I THINK THERE ARE TWO BEATS PER LINE IN A KIND OF VARIABLE FOOT IN THIS > -- Kirby) > > > > > > > __________ > > > > Well, right above this on page 408 of _Collected, > > 1945-1975_, is: > > > > Words > > are > > pleasure. > > All > > words. > > (ONE BEAT PER LINE, AGAIN, VARIABLE. m-- K.) > > > > > > > "Names", among other things, celebrates all names for > > people as pleasure. There's something wonderful about > > the names themselves--largely through their very > > randomness, but check out the dignified (and > > mythological) "Helen" followed by the slightly comedic > > "Ethel", but having the same vowel sounds, as a > > pleasant pattern within this randomness. And, while > > this may seem a little outrageous, "Robert and John" > > does carry a suggestion, for me, of Robert Creeley > > himself and the person addressed as John, though > > that's "not his/name" in the famous early poem "I Know > > A Man"`(p. 132). > > > > that woman whose name > > he can't remember > > or she even him > > > > exhibits Creeley's typical disruption of our > > linguistic expectations. Normally we would encounter > > someone saying "he can't remember the name of person > > A, or even the name of person B" (person B being > > someone we somehow more expect him to remember), but > > here the word "even" is employed as we shift from one > > person's consciousness to another person's-"A can't > > remember the name of person B, and person B can't even > > remember the name of person A". The second act of > > forgetting is once again posited as more surprising > > than the first, but it's kind of weird to make the > > comparison as we shift from one consciousness to > > another. > > > > It might be interesting also to compare and contrast > > the phrases "all he knows", "her thought", and "his > > mind". Someone's "thought" seems to include that > > person's QUESTIONS more than "all one knows" does. > > > > All this may seem like the poetic pleasures only a > > nit-picker might enjoy, but to me all of _Pieces_, > > from whence the poem you question comes, is suffused > > with a Utopian (psychedelic) glow that's very > > inspiring. > > > > Re your sense that your students could never get > > Creeley's writing, that may be, but there was a time > > (in some manner continuing?) when _For Love_, at > > least, really connected with Kids, and thus became a > > poetry bestseller. See Fiedler's essay "The New > > Mutants" in which he speaks of the youth appeal of the > > poem that speaks of "words, words/as if all/words were > > there". (Collected--p. 221) > > > > ____________________ > > Re the other poem you question specifically: I love > > the abrupt ending "when the lights". It's just enough > > to evoke a sensation. > > ______________ > > > > I'm currently a lurker on the Buffalo List because of > > weird computer capacity issues, but if you want to > > post this to the list, mit comments, don't hesitant to > > do so. > > > > Stephen Baraban > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes > > http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 12:56:10 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: class, the muted variable In-Reply-To: <4004514E.38AC632@delhi.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Kirby - I don't know, but I suspect I am not alone on this list with the concern that you ought - if you did not already do so years ago (it's hard to tell from your posts) that you stop reading poetry immediately. I cannot tell you what a vice and danger poetry could still represent to the protection of your moral character. Many have us have already fallen to its addiction. Lovers, wives and husbands are strewn in the wake of our love of verse, let alone otherwise once promising and handsome careers in politics, law, medicine, etc., etc., and, needless to say, upstanding participation in the Scouts, Sunday School Services, and hours on our children's soccer fields, etc., etc. I even suspect participation in this list - even with its minimum attention to actual poems - could possibly drive you crazy and render your familial and community associations more unstable than you once experienced in what appears - except for the grace of parental intervention - to have been a childhood surrounded by tragedy and sadness. Believe it or not, heroin and LSD are cheap substitutes for proximity to the Muse. No offense, but, Toby, I humbly suggest, for your own safety, get a way from poetry as far and as quickly as you can. Stephen Vincent on 1/13/04 12:13 PM, Kirby Olson at olsonjk@DELHI.EDU wrote: > Catherine Daly, some of your references were lost to me. I wasn't even sure > if you were responding to me or to someone else. > > I suppose my suspicion of the left categories (both description and > prescription) began in 1974 when I started taking LSD with a bunch of > friends after one night Allen Ginsberg appeared on a talk show with a witty > guy -- not David Frost -- he has a pointy face -- and said that if you took > LSD you could talk to God. We pooled our money and took a bunch of it. > After a month or so three of my five friends had gone nuts, and one wanted > to go into the CIA. I myself felt loony for about two years. During that > time more and more of my friends died of heroin overdoses and so on. So > that was my first sense that the left could have a bad prescription for a > problem that they perceived. I think Ginsberg thought people were too > rational in America. So they needed to go crazy. there was this idea that > if you took drugs you would become permanently cool. > > At any rate, Ginsberg killed the best minds in my high school. Those guys > never recovered. > > I did, but I am still a little out there. > > As for feminism, and Simone de Beauvoir. You've read it I'm sure. Her > chapter on Breton? She attacks Breton for giving Nadja the role of Love, > and no other profession. It's worse than this. Breton loved her because she > was nuts. At the end of the book he goes on and on about how the medical > establishment is responsible. In fact, she's nuts, and she has no > resources. Her family barely knows where she is, and she's left her child > alone in a hotel room while she goes out hooking. (It's a somewhat occluded > fact in the story that she is a hooker, and that Breton is paying her for > her time, and that he is also sleeping with her.) > > All my friends in high school who died came from flakey families. My mom > and dad bailed me out, and set me straight, as they did for the one other > guy in my gang who survived our drug escapades. The women in our gang also > went nuts. Some turned into prostitutes, some od'd, and some are now still > alive, but alcoholic, and unable to function for the most part. The only > ones who survived had strong families. > > I think this is what women need, and certainly what children need -- a > family that they can count on. What else is there? The ultra-poor often > don't have this safety net. I'm not sure about the homeless. Nadja is more > or less in that category. She ended up in an asylum until she died in > 1946. Her records remain sealed, so there is no way to know her side of the > story as of yet. > > What worries me about feminism is that it has driven a wedge between men and > women such that it is much easier to divorce. Has this been good for > women? Maybe not. Many of the poorest women are single-mothers. It's a > terrible situation. I'm interested in somehow figuring out how to create > durable families. > > I think the left keeps offering up bizarre ideas -- now it's Deleuze saying > that everybody should go crazy, or Foucault saying that people in mental > institutions should all be let out. I am not sure if Thorazine has allowed > people to become stable, but Nadja -- ultra-poor, and without any family at > all, and out hooking to make ends meet, and also involved in the drug > trade. It wasn't her gender so much that wiped her out, it was her poverty > and lack of stable social connections. She may have also had some kind of > chemical imbalance. But if you think of John Clare, mentioned yesterday -- > he was pretty stable in the beginning but overwork destroyed his mind, > apparently. The ultra-poor, epsecially if they are talented, go nuts. So I > don't think that gender or race are impediments to writing. We have great > and important women writers -- Jane Austen -- the best novelist of the 19th > century, Marianne Moore -- the most interesting of the modernist poets, and > we have many upper-class writers of color -- for example the marvelous > Marcellin brothers of Haiti who wrote such wonderful novels. But it's very > rare for a person of the extreme lower classes to write. Class is a real > impediment, and almost insuperable. > > Race, gender, class. These are some variables, of which I htink the last is > the most important and the least discussed. Another variable is -- Do you > have a mother and father that you can count on? People with alcoholic > partners, or alcoholic parents. These people are in for a very hard life. > > I often feel that race and gender are red herrings. It's family, and > sobriety, and a sense that life has meaning that needs to be rebuilt. If we > choose the wrong issues to focus on, or get the wrong prescription (as > Ginsberg did with LSD), a lot of people die. The sexual revolution has > killed hundreds of thousands. I think that the sixties gave us all kinds of > answers. None of those answers have paid out for my generation. The only > thing I still accept from the sixties is lava lamps. They are a marvelous > waste of a few minutes, or a nice thing to have if you are an insomniac, > like me. But what we need to do to somehow cure the state of the ultra-poor > is to try and make it possible for families to stay together. Maybe I'm > wrong, but that's been my understanding, and most of our radical politics > have driven a wedge into families. The sexual revolution, the use of drugs > as a means of life enhancement, the rise of divorce as a way to settle a > dispute, the sense that men and women are somehow natural enemies instead of > natural friends, etc. > > -- Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 16:29:32 -0500 Reply-To: Geoffrey Gatza Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Geoffrey Gatza Subject: Ginsberg killed the best minds in my high school MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit [Kirby says, At any rate, Ginsberg killed the best minds in my high school. Those guys never recovered.] I heard that Ginsberg was the sole reason why the Colombinme kids went into a rage. These were nice boys bowling before school, then after listening to Ginsberg's "Ballad of the Skeleton's" on NPR went on a shooting rampage killing 17. Why doesn't some one stop these poets??? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirby Olson" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 3:13 PM Subject: Re: class, the muted variable > Catherine Daly, some of your references were lost to me. I wasn't even sure > if you were responding to me or to someone else. > > I suppose my suspicion of the left categories (both description and > prescription) began in 1974 when I started taking LSD with a bunch of > friends after one night Allen Ginsberg appeared on a talk show with a witty > guy -- not David Frost -- he has a pointy face -- and said that if you took > LSD you could talk to God. We pooled our money and took a bunch of it. > After a month or so three of my five friends had gone nuts, and one wanted > to go into the CIA. I myself felt loony for about two years. During that > time more and more of my friends died of heroin overdoses and so on. So > that was my first sense that the left could have a bad prescription for a > problem that they perceived. I think Ginsberg thought people were too > rational in America. So they needed to go crazy. there was this idea that > if you took drugs you would become permanently cool. > > At any rate, Ginsberg killed the best minds in my high school. Those guys > never recovered. > > I did, but I am still a little out there. > > As for feminism, and Simone de Beauvoir. You've read it I'm sure. Her > chapter on Breton? She attacks Breton for giving Nadja the role of Love, > and no other profession. It's worse than this. Breton loved her because she > was nuts. At the end of the book he goes on and on about how the medical > establishment is responsible. In fact, she's nuts, and she has no > resources. Her family barely knows where she is, and she's left her child > alone in a hotel room while she goes out hooking. (It's a somewhat occluded > fact in the story that she is a hooker, and that Breton is paying her for > her time, and that he is also sleeping with her.) > > All my friends in high school who died came from flakey families. My mom > and dad bailed me out, and set me straight, as they did for the one other > guy in my gang who survived our drug escapades. The women in our gang also > went nuts. Some turned into prostitutes, some od'd, and some are now still > alive, but alcoholic, and unable to function for the most part. The only > ones who survived had strong families. > > I think this is what women need, and certainly what children need -- a > family that they can count on. What else is there? The ultra-poor often > don't have this safety net. I'm not sure about the homeless. Nadja is more > or less in that category. She ended up in an asylum until she died in > 1946. Her records remain sealed, so there is no way to know her side of the > story as of yet. > > What worries me about feminism is that it has driven a wedge between men and > women such that it is much easier to divorce. Has this been good for > women? Maybe not. Many of the poorest women are single-mothers. It's a > terrible situation. I'm interested in somehow figuring out how to create > durable families. > > I think the left keeps offering up bizarre ideas -- now it's Deleuze saying > that everybody should go crazy, or Foucault saying that people in mental > institutions should all be let out. I am not sure if Thorazine has allowed > people to become stable, but Nadja -- ultra-poor, and without any family at > all, and out hooking to make ends meet, and also involved in the drug > trade. It wasn't her gender so much that wiped her out, it was her poverty > and lack of stable social connections. She may have also had some kind of > chemical imbalance. But if you think of John Clare, mentioned yesterday -- > he was pretty stable in the beginning but overwork destroyed his mind, > apparently. The ultra-poor, epsecially if they are talented, go nuts. So I > don't think that gender or race are impediments to writing. We have great > and important women writers -- Jane Austen -- the best novelist of the 19th > century, Marianne Moore -- the most interesting of the modernist poets, and > we have many upper-class writers of color -- for example the marvelous > Marcellin brothers of Haiti who wrote such wonderful novels. But it's very > rare for a person of the extreme lower classes to write. Class is a real > impediment, and almost insuperable. > > Race, gender, class. These are some variables, of which I htink the last is > the most important and the least discussed. Another variable is -- Do you > have a mother and father that you can count on? People with alcoholic > partners, or alcoholic parents. These people are in for a very hard life. > > I often feel that race and gender are red herrings. It's family, and > sobriety, and a sense that life has meaning that needs to be rebuilt. If we > choose the wrong issues to focus on, or get the wrong prescription (as > Ginsberg did with LSD), a lot of people die. The sexual revolution has > killed hundreds of thousands. I think that the sixties gave us all kinds of > answers. None of those answers have paid out for my generation. The only > thing I still accept from the sixties is lava lamps. They are a marvelous > waste of a few minutes, or a nice thing to have if you are an insomniac, > like me. But what we need to do to somehow cure the state of the ultra-poor > is to try and make it possible for families to stay together. Maybe I'm > wrong, but that's been my understanding, and most of our radical politics > have driven a wedge into families. The sexual revolution, the use of drugs > as a means of life enhancement, the rise of divorce as a way to settle a > dispute, the sense that men and women are somehow natural enemies instead of > natural friends, etc. > > -- Kirby > > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 13:36:07 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Weishaus Subject: Re: Steven Shaviro's Connected & Sci-fi/SF MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Herb Levy" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 9:35 AM Subject: Re: Steven Shaviro's Connected & Sci-fi/SF > > In Shakespeare's plays the characters do indeed speak Elizabethan > English, regardless of whether they live in Elizabethan England, > Venice, Verona, ancient Greece, Rome or Egypt or anywhere else > Shakespeare set his plays. If somehow, Shakespeare had written a play > about American Beatniks it's very difficult to believe that he would > have gotten the slang right or that he would have chosen to present > the play with speaking "because [he] wouldn't know what they were > saying." He would use the language that he and his audience > understood. > > In, for example, a Polish film or book like Saragossa Manuscript, > which takes place in Spain, the characters all speak Polish, the > language of the author and film makers and the original audience for > the book and the movie. > > For the most part, that's what writers, playwrights and film makers > do and always have done. > > It is possible to do something other than this. Robert Corbett, > mIEKAL aND, & Shannan Compton note some exceptions to this convention > and there are others (one could include works like Finnegans Wake in > this category), but as an accountant might say, it's "generally > accepted practice" to write in a language you know and that your > expected audience knows. > > Would the kind of science fiction film without audible dialog that > you suggested earlier necessarily be a better solution to our not > knowing what characters in the future would be saying? > > I ask again, why should science fiction be any different? > Herb: It usually risks itself scenically more than fictionally. Star Trek gets around this with its "universal translator," so that everyone can speak...20th Century English. But back to the future of my original point: we have no way of knowing what language will be in the future. To consider the future of languages--we're so used to studying the past--doesn't have to do with what they will be--thus the silence. But that they will be very different from anything we can imagine opens imaginative space. -Joel ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 22:31:13 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Frank Sherlock Subject: Re: class, the muted variable Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed The Brahmin example can just as easily be discussed as a race issue, because it too is culturally determined- & gender as well. This list has recently been an exchange of both these attempts at determination. I would say that "workers of the world unite" may not be relevant in a Cold War Soviet sense, but as global capitalism has moved to every nook on the planet- so too has resistance to its injustices & exploits. In this sense, Cleveland teamsters & farmers in India have never been more closely linked. Of course, the rich work. But they're being paid (at least) fairly. Others are not. That's the sticking point. Frank Sherlock >From: Catherine Daly >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: class, the muted variable >Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 11:28:06 -0800 > >How relevant is "workers of the world unite"? And how different that is >from "women of the world unite"! Are there some pretty basic things >going on? I'm not convinced; I'm also not convinced "workers" are the >only ones working. Not just workers need food and health care. >Clothing seems more of an option in some of the more temperate climates >where most of the clothing that American workers purchase is sewn by >indentured servants and essentially slave laborers, but hey. > >I am privileged by my economic status to not have to purchase cheap >tshirts at Wal Mart. This is reinforced by my social class -- I don't >have occasion to shop at wal mart and I don't have occasion to purchase >and wear many tshirts. > >It isn't as though no Brahmins work. Lots of Brahmins run restaurants, >which, in my experience, offer a wide range of pretty cruddy jobs. In >India, where I lived for not very long, and in Indian companies (worked >for one of those for a brief period too), there were plenty of poor >Brahmins, they were just the top of the caste system. While Brahmins >don't generally clean out latrines, frankly, I don't either. > >Class considerations around social ceremonies -- and elections are >those, certainly, just as state-sanctioned marriages are, for example -- >effect people differently in different places and times. To carry >understandings of the operations of class derived from present-day US >Protestantism back to the society in which the Catholic church is >centered (say, the area around Rome) in the early 20th Century, or even >back to Protestant Switzerland and Germany in the same time period, >seems like entering a hall of mirrors to me. > >I read _A Room of One's Own_ again last night after the previous posts >(tho I teach it and had to reread anyway). I was particularly >distressed by the passages wishing some old battle axe had worked to >achieve a great fortune which could endow scholarships and fellowships >for Woolf. > >All best, >Catherine Daly >cadaly@pacbell.net _________________________________________________________________ Learn how to choose, serve, and enjoy wine at Wine @ MSN. http://wine.msn.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 16:41:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david benedetti Subject: Re: what's happening to Tom Raworth? In-Reply-To: <21084992.1073408975@dial93.dial.unm.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I was just notified that Tom Raworth in Cambridge, England has cut off his email, snail mail, phone, and all until further notice....??? Anybody know him well enough to know what's up and if he needs anything? David Benedetti ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 16:47:49 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: FW: Shearsman 57 is now online MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: Tony Frazer [mailto:editor@shearsman.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 7:06 AM To: Tony Frazer Subject: Shearsman 57 is now online from http://www.shearsman.com/ where you should click on < current issue > in the magazine jump menu, top right. This issue features poetry by Joshua Auerbach Michael Donhauser (translated by Iain Galbraith) Laurie Duggan Erling Friis-Baastad Sam Sampson Catherine Wagner John Welch ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 00:51:33 -0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Trevor Joyce Subject: Re: what's happening to Tom Raworth? Comments: cc: david benedetti In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Hi David, Tom's in the process of moving house in Cambridge at present, so he's been necessarily out of touch, and will be until he gets his new place set up. I gather he's got an army of willing hands (something wrong there!) at his disposal, though, so everything's under control. Best, Trevor >I was just notified that Tom Raworth in Cambridge, >England has cut off his email, snail mail, phone, >and all until further notice....??? >Anybody know him well enough to know what's up >and if he needs anything? > David Benedett ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 00:51:14 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: what's happening to Tom Raworth? Comments: cc: Keith Tuma , Trevor Joyce In-Reply-To: <19138182.1074012095@dial283.dial.unm.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi David, what you write is true . . . up to a point. The point being that Tom is in transit, between housing. Enough said. The situation should be improved, if anything, by new arrangements. I'm sure that some sort of panic reaction and the more anxious machinations of the rumour mill would be the last wish on Tom's mind. Right now the family has good friends and a supportive network. love and love cris > I was just notified that Tom Raworth in Cambridge, > England has cut off his email, snail mail, phone, > and all until further notice....??? > Anybody know him well enough to know what's up > and if he needs anything? > David Benedetti ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 12:07:12 +1100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Pam=20Brown?= Comments: To: pam MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear email friends, colleagues and countrypersons, Please take the time to note and bookmark my CHANGE of EMAIL ADDRESS. New address - pbro7194@mail.usyd.edu.au Thanks, Stay in touch, Pam Brown P.O. Box 55 ROSE BAY NSW 2029 Australia www.geocities.com/p.brown http://personals.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Personals New people, new possibilities. FREE for a limited time. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 20:09:31 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Craig Allen Conrad Subject: Re: class, the muted variable MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Catherine, i'm glad you're responding, and honest about who you are, where you're from, what you stand for. you say that it's so different saying Workers Unite and Women Unite. possibly it's because of your class that you haven't bothered to inform yourself about just how privileged you are. the fact is that women own less than 1% of the owned property in the world. but of course, as we learned in 1st or 2nd grade, there are more women than men. it's also true that--all over the world--women do, without a doubt, more work than men. and not only that, but much of that work that women do is not work which is paid work. even when they are doing work that they get paid for, they almost always have to go back home and do more work. this is NOT to say that men do nothing unless they get paid for it, but it is true that women do far more work than men do which is work which is not paid work. so yes, it is VERY appropriate to connect workers and women, since it's women who do most of the work. and this, by the way, is true in almost every culture you can name. is it true that many of the women who are involved with such groups as The Global Women's Strike are middle class are upper middle class? it's possible, but it's also true that many of the women who have fought against slavery, or fought for the right to vote tended to be of a more comfortable class. they were women --like Eleanor Roosevelt for instance-- who understood injustice, and were willing to work against that injustice however they could. Gloria Steinem was interviewed once where she talked about having to attend a school reunion at Smith, where she had graduated on scholarship, and then a month later attend a reunion at her old high school in working class Toledo she talked about the Smith reunion first, how the women seemed a little scattered, lost, and seemed more identified through their husbands than their own accomplishments. when she spoke of the Toledo reunion she said how clear it was to her that these were women who were very much aware of the uneven exchange of the sexes, of having to work in the factory, come home and cook and wash the kids and wash the dishes and wash the clothes. she said it was an important revelation for her, to SEE the working class world she thought she had escaped with her scholarship, really SEEING it and all that she had failed to see when she was younger. and of course it was her working class roots as a woman that made her strive and set out to make Smith work for her as much as she could possibly make it work for her. she didn't have the privilege of wealthy parents, and it made her opportunity to go to such a well- respected school seem much more important than it did to many of her peers. the other thing is, you mentioned that it's not just workers who need health care. okay, fine, but it's pretty clear that what i mean is that the working class --more and more--are out here making sacrifices to make health care possible. obviously, those who can afford health care generally have health care. workers are not the only ones working? well, if you're working, then you are a worker? right? huh? what is this? look, doctors are unionizing, because they are being taken advantage of by hospitals, by insurance companies, etc. when the Bush team last year made it possible for employers to not have to pay overtime pay for overtime work, no one said much at first, because it was affecting blue collar workers. but a month later (or was it two months later?) when a similar pitch was made for white collar workers, all of a sudden the newspapers acted like it was simply the worst news they'd ever had to report! my mother and i were talking about this, and she feels it's due mainly that working class people are so overworked these days that they may not even be aware of these changes in the labor laws. Catherine, i appreciate your openness, but at the same time, would hope you think about the needs of the larger (very large) portion of the humans on this planet who are not getting their needs met. there's nothing about suffering that should be taken lightly. people sweating their asses off to make shoes and sweaters needs to be thought of by all of us, considering that we're 6% (some argue only 5%) of the world's population, here in America, consuming 60% of the resources. it can't last, this consumption. and maybe the only real hope is for wealthier people to have to fall and fall hard. as my grandmother used to say, "you didn't see poor people jumping out of windows during the Depression, and you know why? because we had each other. the rich only have one another as long as they continue to be rich. once their money's gone jumping out a window is as good as they'll get." my grandmother was a wise and amazing, but very tired worker who didn't seem too unhappy about dying when she died. CAConrad http://phillysound.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 21:00:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Tills Subject: Venues for all Classes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Some more random thoughts about Class and Writing/Reading: Class precludes many able-minded good souls and spirits from engaging in = the quasi-privileged act of writing and producing poetry and art as = freely as they might like, but what's also interesting is the effect class has = on=20 potential readers. Almost the reverse: In terms of "material = well-being," those unencumbered by class-determined limitations ("time to write,=20 time to read/study writing," "access to advanced studies and better schools," "social mixing, schmoozing, with publishers, promoters," "grooming and prestige of name-universities and organizations," etc) are LEAST LIKELY to read, appreciate, value, seek, and "consume" poetry and art. Again, this is "class" in terms of "material = well-being"; "class" in terms of intellectual growth or the capacity to savor = aesthetic pleasure is severely low for the average wealthy person, who can in = those=20 terms be describe as belonging to a lower class of societal members=20 (rednecks, philistines, republicans, chauvinists, etc). One cure, in my opinion, and part of my future aims with my first = "portal"=20 therepublicofcalifornia is to BRING "poetry" TO THE READER, i.e., turn all kinds of things from the ordinary world into "poetry," most especially "fake web sites" and "real ones," too. For anybody younger, more ambitious and focused than this dreamer, I encourage creating dozens of Yahoos, Googles, MSNBCs,=20 Microsoft.coms, IBMs, Halliburtons, U.S. Governments, and every "brand" of anything public and commercial. No, publishing one's "poetry" in these free and everyday and habituated venues will not, of course, get one into Lit History and the grand old = Immortality we're all desiring a lot of the time, but it would still be poetry, even = if=20 it functions a bit differently.=20 Who is it, Guy Debord, http://www.bopsecrets.org/SI/detourn.htm,=20 or one of the "detournement" school poets/artists, who recognizes that one of the "places" to look for poetry's next=20 new space, is out there in the world NOT EVEN TRYING TO BE POETRY,=20 or something like that (Brian Stefans interviewed by Giselle , = "Hacktivism?=20 I didn't know the term existed before I did it," http://www.uiowa.edu/~iareview/tirweb/feature/stefans/index.html#,=20 also talks about this)? =20 And not to be a giant phony, yeah, sure, I aspire to write poems, or "better," in the top journals, "poetries,"=20 and see them in "Perfect Bound Heaven," so my idealism is not pure. But I am genuinely keen on the idea of=20 turning a lot of "the upper classes' common, everyday visual and verbal representations" into subtle, "other" new representations, "a low-class art including graffiti,"=20 as it were, and thus "bringing 'poetry' to them" instead of waiting for them to put it into an acceptable, traditional=20 form, like a book, which "they" would not likely read, anyhow. Blah blah, light thoughts from a really middlin classer. :) Steve =20 Steve Tills Microcomputer/Software Specialist MIS Dept.- G.W. Lisk Company, Inc. 315-462-4309 Stills@gwlisk.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 20:51:34 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Fwd: FLUXLIST: 4'33 on BBC3 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Begin forwarded message: > From: "LeClaire, Candace" > Date: Tue Jan 13, 2004 8:47:14 AM US/Pacific > To: "'Bertrand Clavez '" , > "'FLUXLIST@scribble.com '" > Subject: RE: FLUXLIST: 4'33 on BBC3 > Reply-To: FLUXLIST@scribble.com > > Don't forget that you can listen to this performance via Internet live > on > BBC3 on Friday... > http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/ > > Here is the program's description: > http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/listings/index.shtml?day=Friday > Be sure to scroll down to "Evening" programmes... > > They usually keep performances on their site - so you may be able to > listen > to it another time too if you miss Friday. > > Candace. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bertrand Clavez > To: FLUXLIST@scribble.com > Sent: 1/13/2004 7:26 AM > Subject: FLUXLIST: 4'33 on BBC3 > > Dear friends, > > apparently they're having an hommage session on BBC3, in particular, > friday > around 7 pm, the BBC Symphonic orchestra is to perform 4'33". > I'll tape that one! > > Bertrand ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 00:36:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nick Piombino Subject: Nick PIombino's ::fait accompli:: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit "Blogging and Narcissism" now online at ::fait accomplli:: {http://nickpiombino.blogspot.com} is in part a response to Ernesto Priego's {http://neverneutral.blogspot.com/} essay "Primary Passions" on his ongoing blog *Never Neutral* ******************** ::fait accompli's:: recently updated Bloglinks are now available online at the Suny/Buffalo EPC {http://epc.buffalo.edu/connects/blogs.html} ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 01:57:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: least of the structure of the sun and mars MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII least of the structure of the sun and mars http://www.asondheim.org/tao0.mov the dark side of non-distraction coming all the time leaving all the time truly there are no machines the structure of the sun is the nearby greatest one and one and one one and one and one _ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 02:01:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: ** Boog City Discount Ad Rate Here to Stay ** Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Boog City's discount ad rate is back. Our February issue is going to press on Monday, Jan. 26, and we are once again offering a 50% discount on our 1/8-page ads, cutting them from $60 to $30. (The discount rate also applies on larger ads.) Make reservations as soon as possible. Ads must be in by Fri., Jan. 23 (we're also cool with donations, real cool.) Issue will be distributed on Tues. Jan. 27. Email editor@boogcity.com or call 212-842-BOOG(2664) for more information. Thanks, David -- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://boogcity.blog-city.com/ T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 08:14:17 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Craig Allen Conrad Subject: the sniping Democrats MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit it's being said everyday that it's BAD for the Democrats to be firing away at one another they way they are. just yesterday i was in Radio Shack, and a C-SPAN or CNN talk show was on, and the commentator said, "This type of behavior of sniping at one another is AWFUL for the Democrats and the democratic process!" really? well i don't know about everybody else, but i feel the absolute opposite is true. it's very important in these bleak times for passionate voices and dialog, no matter how nasty it gets. why do we want to complain about harsh words when the war machine is shooting and killing? any debate is healthy. and "healthy debate" is redundant, i think. and furthermore, i'm NOT interested in having Kucinich EVER agreeing with Lieberman by the way! i may not have much support in this, but if truth could kill, Kucinich might well be one the few left standing at these debates. as a poet, i feel that one of my jobs is to make the fear of language an obsolete fear. CAConrad http://phillysound.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 08:15:08 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Fwd: Poetry Event & Forum this Saturday Comments: To: engl3960sec3@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU, engrad-l@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU, englfac@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > >From: manowak@stkate.edu >Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 13:01:52 -0600 >Bcc: Maria Damon > >RESIST RETAIL NIHILISM >POETRY READING >SATURDAY, JANUARY 17, 7pm >@ MAYDAY BOOKSTORE (UMN/West Bank) > >As conclusion to the RESIST RETAIL NIHILISM: BOOKSTORE WORKERS ORGANIZING >FORUM (see below), the Union of Radical Workers & Writers is hosting a >poetry event at MayDay Bookstore in Minneapolis on Saturday, January 17, at >7pm. Readers include: > >Emmanuel Ortiz, spoken word artist, CWA member, and worker at the Resource >Center of the Americas bookstore. >Stacy Szymaszek, poet, editor of , and bookstore worker at the >Woodland Pattern Book Center, Milwaukee, Wisconsin >Sun Yung Shin, URWW/NWU, poet, co-editor of the new broadside series >, and author of >Mark Nowak, URWW/NWU, poet, editor of , and >author of and (both from Coffee House >Press) > >***** > >"Resist Retail Nihilism: A Bookstore Workers Organizing Forum" >17 January 2004 10am-4pm >Communication Workers of America Local 7200 >3521 East Lake Street >Minneapolis, Minnesota > >The Union of Radical Workers and Writers [U.R.W.W.] is convening what is >believed to be the first conference dedicated to organizing bookstore >workers across the Americas on Saturday, January 17, 2004. Scheduled to >coincide with the World Social Forum gathering in Mumbai, India >[www.wsfindia.org], the conference ("Resist Retail Nihilism: A Bookstore >Workers Organizing Forum") will gather bookstore workers from the recently >striking Borders #1 store in Ann Arbor, Michigan, unionized workers from >the Borders' Calhoun Square store in Minneapolis, Minnesota, as well as >independent, corporate, and used bookstore workers from Chicago, Milwaukee, >and across the continent. > >Local and regional bookstore workers, retail workers, and the general >public are invited to attend any or all of this day-long event. Agenda >items include roundtable discussions on the history of bookstore >organizing, how to organize your bookstore or retail workplace, how to >build community coalitions, and much more. > >For more information, see -- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 09:02:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: the sniping Democrats In-Reply-To: <18d.24605af8.2d369aa9@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > as a poet, i feel that one of my jobs is to make > the fear of language an obsolete fear. > Permission to quote, sir? Gwyn McVay ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 06:32:19 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: August Highland Subject: VOGUE XXX TELEPATHY/DA VINCI CREDIT CARD Comments: To: uroboricsystematics , transgenre , toxicodered , regurgitation , mindfieldproliferation , killfilter , ink tank , imitation poetics , genre-splicing , full-throttle orginator , spammers and flamers , cortext , cranialfile , bytesutra , brain feeder , bibliotech MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.operation-nobel-prize.com/ian/ian_vogue.htm VOGUE XXX TELEPATHY/DA VINCI CREDIT CARD Ian Mitchell, Superheroes of Humanities i don't have any profound assertions of the literary significance or = cultural contribution of my work - i don't have any kind of = philosophical vision for "Formal Spam" - in fact my fundamental = intention for working with Judith and the Superheroes of Humanities was = to avoid the intellectual posturing that seems to accompany many of the = projects by the Worldwide Literati Mobilization Network and the = International Belles Lettres Federation - in short, i want to write = whatever i want to write and to simply produce good litart material -- = ian mitchell August Highland www.operation-nobel-prize.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 06:43:12 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: August Highland Subject: VOGUE - correction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable www.operation-nobel-prize.com VOGUE XXX TELEPATHY/DA VINCI CREDIT CARD Ian Mitchell, Superheroes of Humanities i don't have any profound assertions of the literary significance or = cultural contribution of my work - i don't have any kind of = philosophical vision for "Formal Spam" - in fact my fundamental = intention for working with Judith and the Superheroes of Humanities was = to avoid the intellectual posturing that seems to accompany many of the = projects by the Worldwide Literati Mobilization Network and the = International Belles Lettres Federation - in short, i want to write = whatever i want to write and to simply produce good litart material -- = ian mitchell August Highland www.operation-nobel-prize.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 11:56:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: the sniping Democrats In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > > as a poet, i feel that one of my jobs is to make > > the fear of language an obsolete fear. > > >Permission to quote, sir? > >Gwyn McVay As a poet, I would be very disappointed to see that happen. The fear of language replaced the fear of God, as recommended by my church when I was a kid in a church. To see language robbed of its power and the respect due it would be very sad indeed. gb -- George Bowering Many signs of food on clothing. 303 Fielden Ave. Port Colborne. ON, L3K 4T5 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 09:34:11 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hilton Obenzinger Subject: Re: the sniping Democrats In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > as a poet, i feel that one of my jobs is to make > the fear of language an obsolete fear. > Permission to quote, sir? Gwyn McVay Permission to misquote? As a poet, I feel that one of my jobs is to make the fear of language an absolute fear. Hilton Obenzinger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hilton Obenzinger, PhD. Associate Director for Honors Writing, Undergraduate Research Programs Lecturer, Department of English Stanford University 415 Sweet Hall 650.723.0330 650.724.5400 Fax obenzinger@stanford.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 12:47:22 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: class, the muted variable Comments: To: olsonjk@delhi.edu In-Reply-To: <4004514E.38AC632@delhi.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" geez, kirby, it's hard to know even where to start w/ this; it's so full of half-truths, metalepses, etc, that ...well, i'll just stick to one observation. the "left" , or some watered down version of it, although it relied a lot on racial exclusions to achieve these benefits, gave us the New Deal, which bush is trying to dismantle. the new deal gave us social welfare programs such as welfare, medicare, afdc, etc. these safety nets enabled women to leave abusive marriages that were threatening to their lives and those of their children. the de-stigmatization of divorce has helped also, as has the decriminalization of many forms of birth control. many lives have been saved by the decriminalization of abortion, and many potential lives of abuse and poverty have been prevented by the availability of birth control. now, it is true that much of this came about not thru the efforts of feminists but thru the machinations of drug companies. and availability is still to some degree limited to the middle and upper classes. the families whose intactness you assume to be a virtue are often hotbeds of abuse, violence, destruction. as for the charge that the left is responsible for widespread drug use, i believe it is an open secret that the cia rather than the left has been involved in the selective proliferation of hard drug use in certain poor neighborhoods. most of the world's poor are women and children. in my view, feminism means trying to do something about that, not "driving families apart." i admire your honest search for what makes people happy, and for good values you can pass on to your kids, but this strange need to blame the "left" (many leftists actually frowned on drug use of the ginsberg ilk as an index of apolitical self-involvement) really doesn't make too much sense. ps that must have been Dick cavett. perhaps the real problem is that you are or were, as a teen, too suggestible, looking for easy answers (i.e. all it takes to have a spiritual life is to take acid). i probably watched that show too but it would never have occurred to me to go out and take acid just because someone famous said so on tv. At 3:13 PM -0500 1/13/04, Kirby Olson wrote: >Catherine Daly, some of your references were lost to me. I wasn't even sure >if you were responding to me or to someone else. > >I suppose my suspicion of the left categories (both description and >prescription) began in 1974 when I started taking LSD with a bunch of >friends after one night Allen Ginsberg appeared on a talk show with a witty >guy -- not David Frost -- he has a pointy face -- and said that if you took >LSD you could talk to God. We pooled our money and took a bunch of it. >After a month or so three of my five friends had gone nuts, and one wanted >to go into the CIA. I myself felt loony for about two years. During that >time more and more of my friends died of heroin overdoses and so on. So >that was my first sense that the left could have a bad prescription for a >problem that they perceived. I think Ginsberg thought people were too >rational in America. So they needed to go crazy. there was this idea that >if you took drugs you would become permanently cool. > >At any rate, Ginsberg killed the best minds in my high school. Those guys >never recovered. > >I did, but I am still a little out there. > >As for feminism, and Simone de Beauvoir. You've read it I'm sure. Her >chapter on Breton? She attacks Breton for giving Nadja the role of Love, >and no other profession. It's worse than this. Breton loved her because she >was nuts. At the end of the book he goes on and on about how the medical >establishment is responsible. In fact, she's nuts, and she has no >resources. Her family barely knows where she is, and she's left her child >alone in a hotel room while she goes out hooking. (It's a somewhat occluded >fact in the story that she is a hooker, and that Breton is paying her for >her time, and that he is also sleeping with her.) > >All my friends in high school who died came from flakey families. My mom >and dad bailed me out, and set me straight, as they did for the one other >guy in my gang who survived our drug escapades. The women in our gang also >went nuts. Some turned into prostitutes, some od'd, and some are now still >alive, but alcoholic, and unable to function for the most part. The only >ones who survived had strong families. > >I think this is what women need, and certainly what children need -- a >family that they can count on. What else is there? The ultra-poor often >don't have this safety net. I'm not sure about the homeless. Nadja is more >or less in that category. She ended up in an asylum until she died in >1946. Her records remain sealed, so there is no way to know her side of the >story as of yet. > >What worries me about feminism is that it has driven a wedge between men and >women such that it is much easier to divorce. Has this been good for >women? Maybe not. Many of the poorest women are single-mothers. It's a >terrible situation. I'm interested in somehow figuring out how to create >durable families. > >I think the left keeps offering up bizarre ideas -- now it's Deleuze saying >that everybody should go crazy, or Foucault saying that people in mental >institutions should all be let out. I am not sure if Thorazine has allowed >people to become stable, but Nadja -- ultra-poor, and without any family at >all, and out hooking to make ends meet, and also involved in the drug >trade. It wasn't her gender so much that wiped her out, it was her poverty >and lack of stable social connections. She may have also had some kind of >chemical imbalance. But if you think of John Clare, mentioned yesterday -- >he was pretty stable in the beginning but overwork destroyed his mind, >apparently. The ultra-poor, epsecially if they are talented, go nuts. So I >don't think that gender or race are impediments to writing. We have great >and important women writers -- Jane Austen -- the best novelist of the 19th >century, Marianne Moore -- the most interesting of the modernist poets, and >we have many upper-class writers of color -- for example the marvelous >Marcellin brothers of Haiti who wrote such wonderful novels. But it's very >rare for a person of the extreme lower classes to write. Class is a real >impediment, and almost insuperable. > >Race, gender, class. These are some variables, of which I htink the last is >the most important and the least discussed. Another variable is -- Do you >have a mother and father that you can count on? People with alcoholic >partners, or alcoholic parents. These people are in for a very hard life. > >I often feel that race and gender are red herrings. It's family, and >sobriety, and a sense that life has meaning that needs to be rebuilt. If we >choose the wrong issues to focus on, or get the wrong prescription (as >Ginsberg did with LSD), a lot of people die. The sexual revolution has >killed hundreds of thousands. I think that the sixties gave us all kinds of >answers. None of those answers have paid out for my generation. The only >thing I still accept from the sixties is lava lamps. They are a marvelous >waste of a few minutes, or a nice thing to have if you are an insomniac, >like me. But what we need to do to somehow cure the state of the ultra-poor >is to try and make it possible for families to stay together. Maybe I'm >wrong, but that's been my understanding, and most of our radical politics >have driven a wedge into families. The sexual revolution, the use of drugs >as a means of life enhancement, the rise of divorce as a way to settle a >dispute, the sense that men and women are somehow natural enemies instead of >natural friends, etc. > >-- Kirby -- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 11:05:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jason christie Subject: Re: the sniping Democrats MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit as a poet, or not a poet, i think it a bad idea to fear language. understand language, yes, approach it critically in all instances (not divorced from casualness in any manner necessarily), yes, but not fear it. revelatory terms all abound: absolute, fear, job, poet, language... obsolete fear for whom? absolute fear for whom? there are better things to fear, things that don't necessarily inform a rebellious stance or attitude toward some (self)oprressive vehicle. guns don't kill people. eh? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hilton Obenzinger" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 10:34 AM Subject: Re: the sniping Democrats > > as a poet, i feel that one of my jobs is to make > > the fear of language an obsolete fear. > > > Permission to quote, sir? > Gwyn McVay > > Permission to misquote? > > As a poet, I feel that one of my jobs is to make > the fear of language an absolute fear. > > Hilton Obenzinger > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > Hilton Obenzinger, PhD. > Associate Director for Honors Writing, Undergraduate Research Programs > Lecturer, Department of English > Stanford University > 415 Sweet Hall > 650.723.0330 > 650.724.5400 Fax > obenzinger@stanford.edu > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 13:25:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: the sniping Democrats In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm with gb (and with AH). Hal "Always treat language like a dangerous toy." --Anselm Hollo Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard@earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard { > > as a poet, i feel that one of my jobs is to make { > > the fear of language an obsolete fear. { > > { >Permission to quote, sir? { > { >Gwyn McVay { { As a poet, I would be very disappointed to see that happen. The fear { of language replaced the fear of God, as recommended by my church { when I was a kid in a church. To see language robbed of its power and { the respect due it would be very sad indeed. { { gb { -- { George Bowering { Many signs of food on clothing. { { 303 Fielden Ave. { Port Colborne. ON, { L3K 4T5 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 10:32:38 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Marsh Subject: SDPG Winter Showcase - this friday MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For those in the San Diego area: The San Diego Poetry Guild is hosting its first (winter) showcase this Friday, Jan 16, at 7pm, in Normal Heights. Activities include poetry reading, video, slow-reveal text building, broken word performance, haiku bingo, and other moments of applied literary action. If interested, please contact me backchannel for further information, directions, etc. bill ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 15:03:04 -0330 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Hehir Subject: The Critical Eye Project MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Collectiuve Gutsink Presents: Critical Writing and the Arts: A Public Round Table Discussion Eastern Edge Gallery. Wednesday, January 14. 7-10 pm. Free The evening will feature short presentations from arts community professionals, followed by an open forum. Panelists include interdisciplinary artist Lori Clarke; AGNL curator of contemporary art Bruce Johnson; Noreen Golfman of the Women's International Film and Video Festival and Associate Dean of Graduate Studies at MUN; and Montreal-based arts journalist and lecturer Philip Szporer Watching and Writing with Critical Eye: A Professional Development Workshop for Writers. The Anna Templeton Centre, Saturday, January 17. 11am - 4 pm. $25 (ONLY 6 SPOTS LEFT!!) Facilitator will be Philip Szporer,a freelance writer, broadcaster, filmmaker and international lecturer based in Montreal. The workshop is aimed at demystifying the critical approaches taken when considering the arts, and at building tools for writing about the specifics of an art form like interdisciplinary practice and dance. The one day session, in two blocks of two hours, will first introduce viewpoints, approaches and ethical issues, as well as perspectives on form and clarity. The second part of the workshop will be oriented towards writing a critique Philip Szporer Freelance writer, broadcaster, filmmaker and international lecturer based in Montreal. Philip is Scholar in Residence at the Jacobs Pillow Dance Festival and was awarded a Pew Fellowship for the National Dance/Media Project at the University of California (Los Angeles). He has worked extensively for CBC-Radio in the arts, music and public affairs divisions and served as correspondent for The World, a BBC/ WGBH-Boston co-production, heard on Public Radio International. Collective Gutsink Profile Collective Gutsink was formed in 2001 in St. Johns by Sarah Joy Stoker and local artists after the first series of Knights Impro performances took place. Since then 15 local artists and 3 out of province guests have participated in 3 different Knights Impro events. The Collective is dedicated to producing the highest quality interdisciplinary work, with improvisation as a focus, to Newfoundland, to employing Newfoundland artists, and to exposing as many people as possible to interdisciplinary performance. Contact Kevin Hehir for more information at: khehir@cs.mun.ca or 722 0678 -- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 10:53:31 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: class, the muted variable In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit returning to writing, Craig mentioned backchannel Mina Loy & her manifesto, and Loy's interpretation of family (but a total rejection of medicine, as she became a Christian Scientist) and work the book I read about her time in the Village also includes Djuna Barnes -- Mary Butts, though in England, comes to mind, too, if yr looking for key modernist writers from "good families" who were also drug addicts (but then, the whole Crowley thing is tied together with religion, especially Christianity, isn't it?) -- "Virginia Woolf's few recorded comments about Butts, however, seem to indicate a marked dislike..." http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m0403/2_45/57589967/p1/article.jhtml the list of leftist or anarchist women writers who were writing "art poetry" at the last turn of the century includes Belgian of upper middle class origin Adon Lacroix (what a name! even better b/w Man Ray's "Donna LeCoeur"), who wrote very interesting prose poetry (anybody got access to a Xerox-able copy of her fine press book??? published in Ridgefield?) in addition to collaborative poems she wrote w/ (working class) Man Ray before he started beating her. But, she believed in open marriage, and Man Ray only said he did. most of these women have unfortunate first marriages, many forced by the family or undertaken to get out of the family (again, mostly marriage is the woman leaving her family, except in the US); the stigma of divorce seems to have provided the most courageous of them some escape How's the recent word from our president for cynical endorsement of the family in order to justify cuts in spending for social services? "Administration officials say they are planning an extensive election-year initiative to promote marriage, especially among low-income couples..." The AOL article goes onto mention that part of the initiative is aimed at single mothers as they are giving birth. Seems to me I went to catholic high school with a bunch of girls whose families forced them to marry the baggers at the IGA who knocked them up and *drop out of school* (why would this be necessary?) All best, Catherine Daly cadaly@pacbell.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 13:27:14 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: Re: class, the muted variable Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed In this regard, --recommend very much Dorothy Day--her book THE LONG LONELINESS--her life & work-- she lived in Village, journalist in Twenties--single mother--went on to co-found the Catholic Worker movement and newspaper--working with battered and single mothers--the homeless-- a person who did not just write a committed life--but lived it to the hilt-- --david-baptiste >From: Catherine Daly >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: class, the muted variable >Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 10:53:31 -0800 > >returning to writing, Craig mentioned backchannel Mina Loy & her >manifesto, and Loy's interpretation of family (but a total rejection of >medicine, as she became a Christian Scientist) and work > >the book I read about her time in the Village also includes Djuna Barnes >-- Mary Butts, though in England, comes to mind, too, if yr looking for >key modernist writers from "good families" who were also drug addicts >(but then, the whole Crowley thing is tied together with religion, >especially Christianity, isn't it?) -- "Virginia Woolf's few recorded >comments about Butts, however, seem to indicate a marked dislike..." > >http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m0403/2_45/57589967/p1/article.jhtml > >the list of leftist or anarchist women writers who were writing "art >poetry" at the last turn of the century includes Belgian of upper middle >class origin Adon Lacroix (what a name! even better b/w Man Ray's "Donna >LeCoeur"), who wrote very interesting prose poetry (anybody got access >to a Xerox-able copy of her fine press book??? published in Ridgefield?) >in addition to collaborative poems she wrote w/ (working class) Man Ray >before he started beating her. But, she believed in open marriage, and >Man Ray only said he did. > >most of these women have unfortunate first marriages, many forced by the >family or undertaken to get out of the family (again, mostly marriage is >the woman leaving her family, except in the US); the stigma of divorce >seems to have provided the most courageous of them some escape > >How's the recent word from our president for cynical endorsement of the >family in order to justify cuts in spending for social services? >"Administration officials say they are planning an extensive >election-year initiative to promote marriage, especially among >low-income couples..." The AOL article goes onto mention that part of >the initiative is aimed at single mothers as they are giving birth. >Seems to me I went to catholic high school with a bunch of girls whose >families forced them to marry the baggers at the IGA who knocked them up >and *drop out of school* (why would this be necessary?) > >All best, >Catherine Daly >cadaly@pacbell.net _________________________________________________________________ High-speed users—be more efficient online with the new MSN Premium Internet Software. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=byoa/prem&ST=1 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 11:30:48 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Weishaus Subject: Re: the sniping Democrats MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The repression from fundamentalist religious institutions around the world is mainly directed at language, as their power comes from controlling it. "First there was the Word" is their first misreading. Those of you interested in Maurice Blanchot's work, may want to read, or re-read, Gerald L. Bruns's essay. "Language and Power." (Chicago Review, Spring 1984. pp.24-43.) -Joel ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Bowering" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 8:56 AM Subject: Re: the sniping Democrats > > > as a poet, i feel that one of my jobs is to make > > > the fear of language an obsolete fear. > > > > >Permission to quote, sir? > > > >Gwyn McVay > > As a poet, I would be very disappointed to see that happen. The fear > of language replaced the fear of God, as recommended by my church > when I was a kid in a church. To see language robbed of its power and > the respect due it would be very sad indeed. > > gb > -- > George Bowering > Many signs of food on clothing. > > 303 Fielden Ave. > Port Colborne. ON, > L3K 4T5 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 11:36:35 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: class, the muted variable In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit yup, also my frend Paul Elie's book THE LIFE YOU SAVE MAY BE YOUR OWN, about Day, Percy, O'Connor, and Merton as you know, Evelyn Scott lived with Owen Merton for quite some time, Thomas Merton didn't like her at all! -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of David-Baptiste Chirot Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 11:27 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: class, the muted variable In this regard, --recommend very much Dorothy Day--her book THE LONG LONELINESS--her life & work-- she lived in Village, journalist in Twenties--single mother--went on to co-found the Catholic Worker movement and newspaper--working with battered and single mothers--the homeless-- a person who did not just write a committed life--but lived it to the hilt-- --david-baptiste ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 15:22:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carolyn Ostrander Subject: Re: class, the muted variable MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I saw a Ginsberg interview with William F. Buckley Jr. as well, at my father's knee (but that was 1968). After Ginsberg read poetry he said he had written while "under the influence", I turned to my Dad and said in disgust, "I'll never do drugs - that's not poetry! If he thinks it made him more creative, I think it made him stupid!" I have learned more about poetry since. I wonder what I'd think now? Later, of course, I joined the YTC (Youth Temperance Council), taking courses in drug and alcohol addiction. After reading the pamphlet on the discovery of LSD-25 by a chemist who, on taking it, thought he was a horse and then tried to fly out a window, I changed my mind, and said, "this I have to try". Temperance was my undoing. clo Geoffrey Gatza wrote: > [Kirby says, > > At any rate, Ginsberg killed the best minds in my high school. Those guys > never recovered.] > > I heard that Ginsberg was the sole reason why the Colombinme kids went into > a rage. These were nice boys bowling before school, then after listening to > Ginsberg's "Ballad of the Skeleton's" on NPR went on a shooting rampage > killing 17. > > Why doesn't some one stop these poets??? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kirby Olson" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 3:13 PM > Subject: Re: class, the muted variable > > > Catherine Daly, some of your references were lost to me. I wasn't even > sure > > if you were responding to me or to someone else. > > > > I suppose my suspicion of the left categories (both description and > > prescription) began in 1974 when I started taking LSD with a bunch of > > friends after one night Allen Ginsberg appeared on a talk show with a > witty > > guy -- not David Frost -- he has a pointy face -- and said that if you > took > > LSD you could talk to God. We pooled our money and took a bunch of it. > > After a month or so three of my five friends had gone nuts, and one wanted > > to go into the CIA. I myself felt loony for about two years. During that > > time more and more of my friends died of heroin overdoses and so on. So > > that was my first sense that the left could have a bad prescription for a > > problem that they perceived. I think Ginsberg thought people were too > > rational in America. So they needed to go crazy. there was this idea > that > > if you took drugs you would become permanently cool. > > > > At any rate, Ginsberg killed the best minds in my high school. Those guys > > never recovered. > > > > I did, but I am still a little out there. > > > > As for feminism, and Simone de Beauvoir. You've read it I'm sure. Her > > chapter on Breton? She attacks Breton for giving Nadja the role of Love, > > and no other profession. It's worse than this. Breton loved her because > she > > was nuts. At the end of the book he goes on and on about how the medical > > establishment is responsible. In fact, she's nuts, and she has no > > resources. Her family barely knows where she is, and she's left her child > > alone in a hotel room while she goes out hooking. (It's a somewhat > occluded > > fact in the story that she is a hooker, and that Breton is paying her for > > her time, and that he is also sleeping with her.) > > > > All my friends in high school who died came from flakey families. My mom > > and dad bailed me out, and set me straight, as they did for the one other > > guy in my gang who survived our drug escapades. The women in our gang > also > > went nuts. Some turned into prostitutes, some od'd, and some are now > still > > alive, but alcoholic, and unable to function for the most part. The only > > ones who survived had strong families. > > > > I think this is what women need, and certainly what children need -- a > > family that they can count on. What else is there? The ultra-poor often > > don't have this safety net. I'm not sure about the homeless. Nadja is > more > > or less in that category. She ended up in an asylum until she died in > > 1946. Her records remain sealed, so there is no way to know her side of > the > > story as of yet. > > > > What worries me about feminism is that it has driven a wedge between men > and > > women such that it is much easier to divorce. Has this been good for > > women? Maybe not. Many of the poorest women are single-mothers. It's a > > terrible situation. I'm interested in somehow figuring out how to create > > durable families. > > > > I think the left keeps offering up bizarre ideas -- now it's Deleuze > saying > > that everybody should go crazy, or Foucault saying that people in mental > > institutions should all be let out. I am not sure if Thorazine has > allowed > > people to become stable, but Nadja -- ultra-poor, and without any family > at > > all, and out hooking to make ends meet, and also involved in the drug > > trade. It wasn't her gender so much that wiped her out, it was her > poverty > > and lack of stable social connections. She may have also had some kind of > > chemical imbalance. But if you think of John Clare, mentioned > yesterday -- > > he was pretty stable in the beginning but overwork destroyed his mind, > > apparently. The ultra-poor, epsecially if they are talented, go nuts. So > I > > don't think that gender or race are impediments to writing. We have great > > and important women writers -- Jane Austen -- the best novelist of the > 19th > > century, Marianne Moore -- the most interesting of the modernist poets, > and > > we have many upper-class writers of color -- for example the marvelous > > Marcellin brothers of Haiti who wrote such wonderful novels. But it's > very > > rare for a person of the extreme lower classes to write. Class is a real > > impediment, and almost insuperable. > > > > Race, gender, class. These are some variables, of which I htink the last > is > > the most important and the least discussed. Another variable is -- Do you > > have a mother and father that you can count on? People with alcoholic > > partners, or alcoholic parents. These people are in for a very hard life. > > > > I often feel that race and gender are red herrings. It's family, and > > sobriety, and a sense that life has meaning that needs to be rebuilt. If > we > > choose the wrong issues to focus on, or get the wrong prescription (as > > Ginsberg did with LSD), a lot of people die. The sexual revolution has > > killed hundreds of thousands. I think that the sixties gave us all kinds > of > > answers. None of those answers have paid out for my generation. The only > > thing I still accept from the sixties is lava lamps. They are a marvelous > > waste of a few minutes, or a nice thing to have if you are an insomniac, > > like me. But what we need to do to somehow cure the state of the > ultra-poor > > is to try and make it possible for families to stay together. Maybe I'm > > wrong, but that's been my understanding, and most of our radical politics > > have driven a wedge into families. The sexual revolution, the use of > drugs > > as a means of life enhancement, the rise of divorce as a way to settle a > > dispute, the sense that men and women are somehow natural enemies instead > of > > natural friends, etc. > > > > -- Kirby > > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 15:02:13 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christine Murray Subject: Znine is Up MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Hello, All-- I invite you to have a look at our new issue of Znine, the online lit journal of the University of Texas, Arlington. http://www.uta.edu/english/znine This issue includes my interview-dialogue with Annie Finch: http://www.uta.edu/english/znine/interview1.html as well as fine writing from Clayton Couch, Stephen Vincent, and Mark Weiss. Znine will be taking submissions through April 15 for its next issue, due out in Fall 04. Enjoy! Chris Murray http://texfiles.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 16:54:25 -0500 Reply-To: olsonjk@delhi.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kirby Olson Organization: SUNY Delhi Subject: Re: class, the muted variable MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Maria, you made a big mistake not listening to Ginsberg. Taking LSD was the greatest thing that ever happened to me. When Rimbaud talks about colors of vowels, it's no sweat, I was there, and know just what he was talking about. And I did talk to God. It's just that it also killed half my friends. Ginsberg's ideas were meant for tough and or lucky people. I went nuts for about two years, but it was all kind of fun from this end, and showed me all kinds of things that I wouldn't have otherwise known. For some reason, however, it permanently destabilized many of my friends, and a lot of them either killed themselves or ended in asylums. They're English muffins. What can you say? It worked for Ginsberg, and it worked for me, but it probably killed a hundred thousand people. He wasn't just a poet -- he was a political leader with enormous persuasive ability who had access to the mainstream media. And yes, it was Dick Cavett who interviewed him!!!! The only clue I gave was pointy nose, and you bagged it from that. Very good sleuthing, I'd say. I think one of our problems is a huge discrepancy concerning where Marxism and "leftism" and where, say, the New Deal (Roosevelt) fits. Roosevelt was not a Marxist by any stretch! Olson, who worked with Roosevelt, was also not a communist. But the democratic party (and poetry!) is slipping into the clutches of Marxism. Race, gender, class all come out of the class-bound ideas of Marx. Simone de B. says so about her gender ideas in The 2nd Sex. And McKinnon and Dworkin and most feminists use this filter. As do most race theorists. And it's gotten to be a terrific mess. It's hard for me to understand how such a blunt instrument can help us understand anything about anything. (I'm in favor of Kantian feminists! and liberal feminists, but I'm not in favor of very much regarding Marxism.) Just examine class thought. If you say -- this person is a middle-class white male, for instance, it could be Ralph Nader or it could be Ted Bundy. The specifics of who a person is are not even vaguely captured by these very broad terms. They mean almost nothing, and yet nobody seems to examine this. They are huge tools wielded by almost everybody now in academia, but the tools are just delusions. If I say African-American female from the middle class it could be a woman who's gone nuts and is in Bellevue and was found shitting on the street in front of the Chase Manhattan Bank or it could be Nobel Prize winner Toni Morrison. The specifics of a person require tremendous research -- there are literally thousands of bits of data that we need in order to understand even the slightest thing about another person. Those three bits of data won't get it. They were used in the Soviet Union to kill people. Now they're being used in academia to wipe people out, but only through kangaroo courts such as your attempt to frame Tolkein. Even the slightest defense and the kangaroo court disappears and is ashamed of itself. But these three units are used either to put people in good boxes or bad boxes by almost the entire "left" these days as if they are something like an adequate tool. They are just garbage. The big problem I see with the "left" is that it no longer has natural predators. So the ideas go on getting dumber and dumber. PArt of the reason I'm attacking these ideas on this board is because I have to start a clean sweep in order to create some competition for the dumber ideas of the left. When dumb ideas even get into the world of poetry, there is nowhere left to go. The left is soft, and I worry that with this softening, the right will take over the country. I want gridlock for as long as possible so that we don't get either a Marxist or a Calvinist take-over (Bush and his gang belong to a church called United Methodist which is a Calvinist-inspired church). I'm attacking rather clumsily, and am getting wiped out here and there, but I don't care. I think the ideas of the left -- including that unwanted children should be put to death by science -- are completely nuts. Peter Singer at Princeton is now arguing that children UP TO AGE THREE should be able to be "aborted". I think the ghosts of dead children hang around the necks of those who have murdered them just like the dead children in Shakespeare hang around the necks of those who slaughtered them in order to rise. (In many of the history plays a child is killed in order to clear the way to the throne. When this is done, the children literally haunt the killer -- as they do most notably to Richard III. He finally collapses under the guilt and stress of this.) It just isn't ok to slaughter our children or other people's for any reason. Children should be sacrosanct because they are completely defenseless. I think it should be legal to have an abortion, and in the case of a rape I would not know what to say, but the people I know who have done it (abortion) become depressed for years and never completely recover. It haunts them. There is a reason for this. It's wrong, and so fundamentally wrong that the people who do it can never shake that feeling free. Do it if you can live with it. I would never kill my children for any reason, but I would try to have mercy to those who have taken this extraordinary course. It does, however, make me shudder that people could be so merciless as to think that there are not tremendous psychological problems attacked to this supposedly simple operation for absolutely anybody with a soul. (Killing abortion doctors is not the answer, either. It's just a lot more complicated than either side sees it.) -- Kirby Olson ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 13:59:40 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Derek R Organization: derekrogerson.com Subject: Moans and Groans MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit am so sorry to see this disease ... i am SO SORRY to hear ... i am so sorry for katie bingham ... I am so sorry everyone ... am so sorry this has happened ... I am so sorry everyone has mixed view of buildings ... I am so sorry for your loss ... I am so sorry you are having a rough winter this year ... I am so sorry i missed it ... I am so sorry for any Burnt Offerings ... I am so sorry that this had to happen to these innocent people ... I am so sorry to hear about your loss ... I am so sorry that I didn't post it earlier ... I am so sorry, I really am ... Jeff, I am so sorry ... I am so sorry !!! I am so sorry when I know she has a heart murmur ... I am so sorry my Mum has cancer ... I am so sorry, everyone has to like it ... God has took me home ... I am so sorry I am so sorry to see you here! I am so sorry that plant had to close ... I am so sorry such a horrible thing has happened to you ... I am so sorry to hear about what you've been through ... I am so sorry! ... I wish you all the luck and hope ... I am so sorry to hear of the loss of your friend ... I am so Sorry about that ... I am so sorry ... Some people say that you should love everyone ... I am so sorry, Father ... I am so sorry to drag you into this ... I am so sorry I have not kept in touch ... I am so sorry I wasn't there ... I am so sorry Frank ... I am so sorry to hear your news ... I am so sorry about this ... I am so sorry about Ritchie ... I am so sorry about your beautiful drawing ... "I am so sorry!!!" I am so sorry you had problems ... I am so sorry for you ... I am so sorry that you have to go thru this ... I am so sorry about your love ... I am so sorry everyone for taking so long ... I am so sorry things are so tough ... I am so sorry for the loss of your daughters, I ... I am so sorry if anyone took it as personal ... I am so sorry! I am so sorry to say that despite every effort ... I am so sorry this has happend to you ... I am so sorry ... Thanks Everyone I am so sorry and wanted to offer my condolences ... I am so sorry for your loss ... I am so sorry for your loss ... I am so sorry. Hoh-lee sheet ... I am so sorry for all this ... I am so sorry I missed you on Sunday ... I am so sorry Angela, I'm sorry ... Hello everyone, i am so sorry ... I am so sorry to hear about your twin sister ... i am so sorry for your loss i'm sure the company will never be the same ... I am so sorry for all the questions ... I am so sorry ... Why do you ignore me? I am so sorry they didn't make any extras ... I am so sorry Adam ... I am so sorry, I thought I had you on my list before now ... I am so sorry to hear what has happen to Joe ... I am so Sorry ... hi everyone! ... I am so sorry to hear about the theft of the babies ... I am so sorry your special day didn't go well ... I am so sorry to bother you but could you please pray for ... I am so sorry for the pain your sons must be going through ... I am so sorry this is the 1st trial date that has been set ... I am so sorry for your loss of Brett ... brother, i am so sorry ... I am so sorry John Anonymous ... I am so sorry her life was cut short, but rest assured ... I am so sorry for the loss of your Beloved Gem ... I am so sorry, Joel ... Sandee I am so sorry to hear this ... I AM SO SORRY, BUT I DID NOT UNDERSTAND HOW I WAS ... I am so sorry you are having a rough time ... I am so sorry. I miss you. ... I am so sorry Ellie ... I am so sorry I am a guilty party ... I am so sorry that some of my members missed you ... I am so sorry to hear about your losses ... I am so sorry for this ... I am so sorry I taught ... I am so sorry that I didn't get there sooner ... I am so sorry for you ... I am so sorry but Miss Toklas has a bath ... I am so sorry to hear about your relative ... I am so sorry for the victims families ... I am so sorry ... Like everyone has said I am so sorry that everyone has been worrying! ... Okay, everyone. I need boy advice ... I am so sorry has it really been over a month?! I am so sorry to read your story ... I am so sorry for everything ... i am so sorry it seemed that way ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 14:13:07 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Corbett Subject: Re: class, the muted variable In-Reply-To: <4005BA91.4E64066D@delhi.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I am sure that the DLC will agree with you about the Democratic party, but the claim is ridiculous on its face. The Democratic party you are speaking of helped "end welfare as we know it," bombed selectively and probably politically several countries in Africa, and created the environment to allow Clear Channel to become a virtual monopoly in radio and music production, to name only a few actual policies. In general, political wonks and activists do not read marx, although they may know some the catch-phrases. Kirby, you are simply repeating the idiocies promulgated by O'Reilly, Coulter and others. If you really respect FDR democracy, you would think at least once before venting these jibes. Clintonian democracy was different, I grant you, but not in being further left. And the fact that Lieberman and Kucinich can be on the same stage under suggests that there is a big tent in American politics. Robert -- Robert Corbett, Ph.C. "Given the distance of communication, Coordinator of New Programs I hope the words aren't idling on the B40D Gerberding map of my fingertips, but igniting the Phone: (206) 616-0657 wild acres within the probabilities of Fax: (206) 685-3218 spelling" - Rosmarie Waldrop UW Box: 351237 On Wed, 14 Jan 2004, Kirby Olson wrote: > > I think one of our problems is a huge discrepancy concerning where Marxism and > "leftism" and where, say, the New Deal (Roosevelt) fits. Roosevelt was not a > Marxist by any stretch! Olson, who worked with Roosevelt, was also not a > communist. But the democratic party (and poetry!) is slipping into the clutches > of Marxism. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 17:19:28 -0500 Reply-To: olsonjk@delhi.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kirby Olson Organization: SUNY Delhi Subject: Re: Charles Olson & Unitarianism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii This is a general question I'm throwing out -- There's a chunk in the beginning of Olson's Max poems -- really early on, when he discusses Unitarianism. He's talking about a Unitarian church in Gloucester that stands on a street, and seems I think I remember -- to cast an ambiguous shadow. I have a copy of a photograph of that church, but I've never been to Gloucester and so haven't felt the street widths, and so on, that would make the poem come alive. But here's where a knowledge of denominations comes to the front in terms of understanding American poetry. Olson was a Catholic (or at least his mother was, and he was raised thus). This accounts to some extent for his love for the Catholic church with its female saint that he discusses in terms of the Catholic church there. Meanwhile, he almost seems to demonize the Unitarian church. This I think goes back to his days at Harvard (Harvard was originally a Unitarian church-founded institution and discriminated against Catholics). In the Clark biography he points to this to some degree. Olson says in this chunk of the poem that the church had something to do with the importation of slaves into the Massachusetts colonies. (I'm not sure when slavery was outlawed in Massachusetts -- it is outlawed in 1808 in New York State, but there was a grandfather clause such that existing slaves could be kept, and one historian has claimed that some of these existing slaves continued on as slaves until AFTER the Civil War.) This is just an example of how a knowledge of denominations can help us uncover the nuances of poetry. Unfortunately, I know next to nothing about Unitarians. I do know that Coleridge's father was a Unitarian minister. I think he maintained a link to Unitarianism. This might have meant that slavery would have been possible in his Pan-Socratic society somewhere near Binghamton (I've emailed three Coleridge experts but nobody knows the precise whereabouts of this place that failed to materialize). At first I thought Olson was making a hit at Coleridge. But he's actually making a hit at Harvard University -- as he does throughout the first whole movement of the poem. And in some ways he is contrasting Catholicism with Unitarianism. Catholics took a beating all over this country throughout the 20th century but particularly in the first half. There is a book just out called Urban Renewal as Ethnic Cleansing, from St. Augustine Press -- the author argues that urban renewal projects were often slammed through Irish and Catholic neighborhoods (he documents this in Detroit, Philadelphia, and Boston -- spending 100 pages or more on each) in order for WASP voters to continue to have hegemony over Catholics in those cities. He argues that in doing so those communities were destroyed, and the result was a total collapse of those communities. I've only read 50 pages but that's the gist so far. In some way, I think Olson's poem reflects this. There must have been a movement to get rid of ethnic Catholics in Gloucester, too, or to reduce their political clout -- Olson keeps referring to this throughout the first 100 pages. Has anybody written about Christian denominations in Charles Olson and what he's doing with this? I should do more research on Unitarianism -- but does anybody have a good thumbnail sketch based on having lived within it for some time? When we think about the "content of character" by which ML King urged us to look at people -- rather than looking at the color of their skin -- I think religious belief or not tells us quite a bit about a person. Olson's viewpoint is shaped by it, it seems to me, as is his lack of favor regarding Unitarianism. -- Kirby Olson ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 22:27:09 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Frank Sherlock Subject: Re: class, the muted variable Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed "But the democratic party (and poetry!) is slipping into the clutches of Marxism." Kirby, these words could have come from Martin Dies (chairman of the HUAAC) in 1938. His conclusion- there were aprroximately 3,000 communists working for the government under...you guessed it, FDR! And let us not forget Henry Wallace, FDR Cabinet member & Vice President. He ran against Truman in 1948 because he opposed his Cold War policies. He was disgraced as a communist & banished from mainstream political life, feeding anti-New Deal bonfires for decades. The Democrat/Commie connection's been Bircher rhetoric for 70 years. When are these Marxists going to clutch already? Frank Sherlock >From: Kirby Olson >Reply-To: olsonjk@delhi.edu >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: class, the muted variable >Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 16:54:25 -0500 > >Maria, you made a big mistake not listening to Ginsberg. Taking LSD was >the >greatest thing that ever happened to me. When Rimbaud talks about colors >of >vowels, it's no sweat, I was there, and know just what he was talking >about. And >I did talk to God. It's just that it also killed half my friends. >Ginsberg's >ideas were meant for tough and or lucky people. I went nuts for about two >years, >but it was all kind of fun from this end, and showed me all kinds of things >that >I wouldn't have otherwise known. For some reason, however, it permanently >destabilized many of my friends, and a lot of them either killed themselves >or >ended in asylums. They're English muffins. What can you say? It worked >for >Ginsberg, and it worked for me, but it probably killed a hundred thousand >people. He wasn't just a poet -- he was a political leader with enormous >persuasive ability who had access to the mainstream media. And yes, it was >Dick >Cavett who interviewed him!!!! The only clue I gave was pointy nose, and >you >bagged it from that. Very good sleuthing, I'd say. > >I think one of our problems is a huge discrepancy concerning where Marxism >and >"leftism" and where, say, the New Deal (Roosevelt) fits. Roosevelt was not >a >Marxist by any stretch! Olson, who worked with Roosevelt, was also not a >communist. But the democratic party (and poetry!) is slipping into the >clutches >of Marxism. > >Race, gender, class all come out of the class-bound ideas of Marx. Simone >de B. >says so about her gender ideas in The 2nd Sex. And McKinnon and Dworkin >and most >feminists use this filter. As do most race theorists. And it's gotten to >be a >terrific mess. It's hard for me to understand how such a blunt instrument >can >help us understand anything about anything. (I'm in favor of Kantian >feminists! >and liberal feminists, but I'm not in favor of very much regarding >Marxism.) > >Just examine class thought. If you say -- this person is a middle-class >white >male, for instance, it could be Ralph Nader or it could be Ted Bundy. The >specifics of who a person is are not even vaguely captured by these very >broad >terms. They mean almost nothing, and yet nobody seems to examine this. >They are >huge tools wielded by almost everybody now in academia, but the tools are >just >delusions. > >If I say African-American female from the middle class it could be a woman >who's >gone nuts and is in Bellevue and was found shitting on the street in front >of the >Chase Manhattan Bank or it could be Nobel Prize winner Toni Morrison. > >The specifics of a person require tremendous research -- there are >literally >thousands of bits of data that we need in order to understand even the >slightest >thing about another person. Those three bits of data won't get it. They >were >used in the Soviet Union to kill people. Now they're being used in >academia to >wipe people out, but only through kangaroo courts such as your attempt to >frame >Tolkein. Even the slightest defense and the kangaroo court disappears and >is >ashamed of itself. > >But these three units are used either to put people in good boxes or bad >boxes by >almost the entire "left" these days as if they are something like an >adequate >tool. They are just garbage. > >The big problem I see with the "left" is that it no longer has natural >predators. So the ideas go on getting dumber and dumber. > >PArt of the reason I'm attacking these ideas on this board is because I >have to >start a clean sweep in order to create some competition for the dumber >ideas of >the left. When dumb ideas even get into the world of poetry, there is >nowhere >left to go. The left is soft, and I worry that with this softening, the >right >will take over the country. I want gridlock for as long as possible so >that we >don't get either a Marxist or a Calvinist take-over (Bush and his gang >belong to >a church called United Methodist which is a Calvinist-inspired church). > >I'm attacking rather clumsily, and am getting wiped out here and there, but >I >don't care. I think the ideas of the left -- including that unwanted >children >should be put to death by science -- are completely nuts. Peter Singer at >Princeton is now arguing that children UP TO AGE THREE should be able to be >"aborted". > >I think the ghosts of dead children hang around the necks of those who have >murdered them just like the dead children in Shakespeare hang around the >necks of >those who slaughtered them in order to rise. (In many of the history plays >a >child is killed in order to clear the way to the throne. When this is >done, the >children literally haunt the killer -- as they do most notably to Richard >III. >He finally collapses under the guilt and stress of this.) It just isn't ok >to >slaughter our children or other people's for any reason. Children should >be >sacrosanct because they are completely defenseless. I think it should be >legal >to have an abortion, and in the case of a rape I would not know what to >say, but >the people I know who have done it (abortion) become depressed for years >and >never completely recover. It haunts them. There is a reason for this. >It's >wrong, and so fundamentally wrong that the people who do it can never shake >that >feeling free. Do it if you can live with it. I would never kill my >children for >any reason, but I would try to have mercy to those who have taken this >extraordinary course. It does, however, make me shudder that people could >be so >merciless as to think that there are not tremendous psychological problems >attacked to this supposedly simple operation for absolutely anybody with a >soul. >(Killing abortion doctors is not the answer, either. It's just a lot more >complicated than either side sees it.) > >-- Kirby Olson _________________________________________________________________ Check out the new MSN 9 Dial-up — fast & reliable Internet access with prime features! http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=dialup/home&ST=1 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 17:48:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Death of Poetry Blog MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hey folks, I wanted to announce the Death of Poetry blog, www.deathofpoetry.blogspot.com. This is a blog written by my freshman composition course this semester. Members of the class have all committed to a team blog as part of the course. The course is a workshop in written prose argument using the theme of the title as its unifying idea. As for their formal assignments (not on the blog), we have four units: (1) they're starting off the class reading the death of poetry debate in the late eighties/early nineties; (2) they're looking at some of the politics of neoformalist movements; (3) they're doing a research project on poetry in the new media (possibly including this list, and certainly including other poetry blogs); and finally (4) they're doing a close reading of a film (of their choosing) representing poetry. Some of the best of these may get posted as documents on the blog later on. Their first blog posts are informal responses to Joseph Epstein's 1988 _Commentary_ article "Who Killed Poetry?" bemoaning the state of the world. We're just starting, and remember, these are first-year college students in a composition class, not a poetry class as such. But I thought Poetics list people could contribute to the comment function in a useful way. I think the students would love to know that someone is interested in the issues they're exploring at the beginning of their college career. I know I'd appreciate it. Best, David David Kellogg Center for Teaching, Learning, and Writing Duke University (919) 668-1615; FAX (919) 681-0637 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 18:12:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: Death of Poetry Blog: addendum In-Reply-To: <1074120496.4005c73009ca3@webmail.duke.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Just to reiterate: I'm teaching a class here, and taking a slight pedagogical risk by inviting the (mostly) wonderful POETICS listserv community to contribute. Please make comments recognizing that these are 18 year olds who come to the class knowing NOTHING about poetry; and if you do comment, try to keep your comments (sorry Kirby) secular, OK? Quoting David Kellogg : > Hey folks, > > I wanted to announce the Death of Poetry blog, > www.deathofpoetry.blogspot.com. > This is a blog written by my freshman composition course this semester. > Members of the class have all committed to a team blog as part of the > course. > > The course is a workshop in written prose argument using the theme of the > title > as its unifying idea. As for their formal assignments (not on the blog), we > have four units: (1) they're starting off the class reading the death of > poetry > debate in the late eighties/early nineties; (2) they're looking at some of > the > politics of neoformalist movements; (3) they're doing a research project on > poetry in the new media (possibly including this list, and certainly > including > other poetry blogs); and finally (4) they're doing a close reading of a film > (of their choosing) representing poetry. Some of the best of these may get > posted as documents on the blog later on. > > Their first blog posts are informal responses to Joseph Epstein's 1988 > _Commentary_ article "Who Killed Poetry?" bemoaning the state of the world. > > We're just starting, and remember, these are first-year college students in > a > composition class, not a poetry class as such. But I thought Poetics list > people could contribute to the comment function in a useful way. I think > the > students would love to know that someone is interested in the issues they're > exploring at the beginning of their college career. I know I'd appreciate > it. > > Best, > David > > David Kellogg > Center for Teaching, Learning, and Writing > Duke University > (919) 668-1615; FAX (919) 681-0637 > David Kellogg Center for Teaching, Learning, and Writing Duke University (919) 668-1615; FAX (919) 681-0637 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 17:41:13 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brent Bechtel Subject: Chapbook. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I made a chapbook out of 25 poems, and made a PDF from the page layout. I'll probably make saddle-stapled versions of it in the coming days. But anyway, here it is if anyone is interested: http://www.brentbechtel.com/series/akeymemberoftheage.pdf Today is also my birthday - turning 25, so one poem for each year it seems, like candles. Sincerely, Brent Bechtel ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 16:08:08 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Weishaus Subject: Re: class, the muted variable MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I heard that program! Buckley didn't take Ginsberg seriously until he read. It was "Wales Visitation," and it was astounding. Buckley was almost speechless after it, and you could hear the new respect in his voice. At least that's how I remember it, but maybe because I'm older than you, and the San Francisco Beats were my teachers and friends at the time. We do know that Buckley changed his views on psychedelic drugs, maybe because of Allen's genius. -Joel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carolyn Ostrander" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 12:22 PM Subject: Re: class, the muted variable > I saw a Ginsberg interview with William F. Buckley Jr. as well, > at my father's knee (but that was 1968). After Ginsberg > read poetry he said he had written while "under the influence", > I turned to my Dad and said in disgust, > "I'll never do drugs - that's not poetry! If he thinks it made him > more creative, I think it made him stupid!" I have learned more > about poetry since. I wonder what I'd think now? > > Later, of course, I joined the YTC (Youth Temperance Council), > taking courses in drug and alcohol addiction. After reading the > pamphlet on the discovery of LSD-25 by a chemist who, on > taking it, thought he was a horse and then tried to fly out a > window, I changed my mind, and said, "this I have to try". > > Temperance was my undoing. > clo > > Geoffrey Gatza wrote: > > > [Kirby says, > > > > At any rate, Ginsberg killed the best minds in my high school. Those > guys > > never recovered.] > > > > I heard that Ginsberg was the sole reason why the Colombinme kids went > into > > a rage. These were nice boys bowling before school, then after > listening to > > Ginsberg's "Ballad of the Skeleton's" on NPR went on a shooting > rampage > > killing 17. > > > > Why doesn't some one stop these poets??? > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Kirby Olson" > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 3:13 PM > > Subject: Re: class, the muted variable > > > > > Catherine Daly, some of your references were lost to me. I wasn't > even > > sure > > > if you were responding to me or to someone else. > > > > > > I suppose my suspicion of the left categories (both description and > > > prescription) began in 1974 when I started taking LSD with a bunch > of > > > friends after one night Allen Ginsberg appeared on a talk show with > a > > witty > > > guy -- not David Frost -- he has a pointy face -- and said that if > you > > took > > > LSD you could talk to God. We pooled our money and took a bunch of > it. > > > After a month or so three of my five friends had gone nuts, and one > wanted > > > to go into the CIA. I myself felt loony for about two years. > During > that > > > time more and more of my friends died of heroin overdoses and so > on. So > > > that was my first sense that the left could have a bad prescription > for a > > > problem that they perceived. I think Ginsberg thought people were > too > > > rational in America. So they needed to go crazy. there was this > idea > > that > > > if you took drugs you would become permanently cool. > > > > > > At any rate, Ginsberg killed the best minds in my high school. > Those > guys > > > never recovered. > > > > > > I did, but I am still a little out there. > > > > > > As for feminism, and Simone de Beauvoir. You've read it I'm sure. > Her > > > chapter on Breton? She attacks Breton for giving Nadja the role of > Love, > > > and no other profession. It's worse than this. Breton loved her > because > > she > > > was nuts. At the end of the book he goes on and on about how the > medical > > > establishment is responsible. In fact, she's nuts, and she has no > > > resources. Her family barely knows where she is, and she's left her > > child > > > alone in a hotel room while she goes out hooking. (It's a somewhat > > occluded > > > fact in the story that she is a hooker, and that Breton is paying > her for > > > her time, and that he is also sleeping with her.) > > > > > > All my friends in high school who died came from flakey families. > My mom > > > and dad bailed me out, and set me straight, as they did for the one > other > > > guy in my gang who survived our drug escapades. The women in our > gang > > also > > > went nuts. Some turned into prostitutes, some od'd, and some are > now > > still > > > alive, but alcoholic, and unable to function for the most part. The > only > > > ones who survived had strong families. > > > > > > I think this is what women need, and certainly what children need -- > a > > > family that they can count on. What else is there? The ultra-poor > often > > > don't have this safety net. I'm not sure about the homeless. Nadja > is > > more > > > or less in that category. She ended up in an asylum until she died > in > > > 1946. Her records remain sealed, so there is no way to know her > side of > > the > > > story as of yet. > > > > > > What worries me about feminism is that it has driven a wedge between > men > > and > > > women such that it is much easier to divorce. Has this been good > for > > > women? Maybe not. Many of the poorest women are single-mothers. > It's a > > > terrible situation. I'm interested in somehow figuring out how to > create > > > durable families. > > > > > > I think the left keeps offering up bizarre ideas -- now it's Deleuze > > > saying > > > that everybody should go crazy, or Foucault saying that people in > mental > > > institutions should all be let out. I am not sure if Thorazine has > > allowed > > > people to become stable, but Nadja -- ultra-poor, and without any > family > > at > > > all, and out hooking to make ends meet, and also involved in the > drug > > > trade. It wasn't her gender so much that wiped her out, it was her > > poverty > > > and lack of stable social connections. She may have also had some > kind > of > > > chemical imbalance. But if you think of John Clare, mentioned > > yesterday -- > > > he was pretty stable in the beginning but overwork destroyed his > mind, > > > apparently. The ultra-poor, epsecially if they are talented, go > nuts. > So > > I > > > don't think that gender or race are impediments to writing. We have > > great > > > and important women writers -- Jane Austen -- the best novelist of > the > > 19th > > > century, Marianne Moore -- the most interesting of the modernist > poets, > > and > > > we have many upper-class writers of color -- for example the > marvelous > > > Marcellin brothers of Haiti who wrote such wonderful novels. But > it's > > very > > > rare for a person of the extreme lower classes to write. Class is a > real > > > impediment, and almost insuperable. > > > > > > Race, gender, class. These are some variables, of which I htink the > last > > is > > > the most important and the least discussed. Another variable is -- > Do > you > > > have a mother and father that you can count on? People with > alcoholic > > > partners, or alcoholic parents. These people are in for a very hard > > life. > > > > > > I often feel that race and gender are red herrings. It's family, > and > > > sobriety, and a sense that life has meaning that needs to be > rebuilt. If > > we > > > choose the wrong issues to focus on, or get the wrong prescription > (as > > > Ginsberg did with LSD), a lot of people die. The sexual revolution > has > > > killed hundreds of thousands. I think that the sixties gave us all > kinds > > of > > > answers. None of those answers have paid out for my generation. > The > only > > > thing I still accept from the sixties is lava lamps. They are a > marvelous > > > waste of a few minutes, or a nice thing to have if you are an > insomniac, > > > like me. But what we need to do to somehow cure the state of the > > ultra-poor > > > is to try and make it possible for families to stay together. Maybe > I'm > > > wrong, but that's been my understanding, and most of our radical > politics > > > have driven a wedge into families. The sexual revolution, the use > of > > drugs > > > as a means of life enhancement, the rise of divorce as a way to > settle a > > > dispute, the sense that men and women are somehow natural enemies > instead > > of > > > natural friends, etc. > > > > > > -- Kirby > > > > > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 19:24:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: class, the muted variable In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >> But the democratic party (and poetry!) is slipping into the >>clutches >>of Marxism. I know that it is often difficult to pick up sarcasm on the web sometimes. But. Well, I know that a lot of USAmericans think that their Democratic Party is "the left," but I havent heard this "communist" stuff since satires on the McCarthy hearings. -- George Bowering There are minus degrees? 303 Fielden Ave. Port Colborne. ON, L3K 4T5 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 20:08:40 -0500 Reply-To: bstefans@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Brian Kim Stefans [arras.net]" Subject: fsc stuff MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Free Space Comix is up again in a way... I don't plan on sending announcements but thought some of you might like to know: http://www.arras.net/weblog/ Segue: Winter/Spring 2004 series {links} New Media Reader {review} Baubles & Dingleberries {poem} Death in Winnipeg {links} Italics {poem} Little Reviews (acrobat file) {poetics} What’s That On My HEAD?!? {announcement} Christian Bok in the Village Voice {links} Guy Maddin: From The Atelier Tovar {enthusiasms} Howlings in Favor of Tulsa {poem} From Mike Kelleher {open letter} Deep Sea Fishes {links} Sound Files {links} Love's Labor {poem} Ezra Pound Again {review} Poet Critic {chatter} Denis Roche "Bootleg" Is Live {enthusiasms} Three Poems by Denis Roche {quote} Email from John Barlow {carnival} Poems by Emily Greenley {enthusiasms} Joan Murray {chatter} Email to Joan Houlihan {blogwatch} California Recall in Middle English {carnival} May 1968 Graffiti {chatter} Ezra Pound: "Prayer for a Dead Brother" {chatter} Coda: The Nineties Tried Your Game, There's Nothing In It {links} Allodox {blogwatch} Alpha Betty's Chronicles {links} ____ A R R A S: new media poetry and poetics http://www.arras.net Hinka cumfae cashore canfeh, Ahl hityi oar hied 'caw taughtie! "Do you think just because I come from Carronshore I cannot fight? I shall hit you over the head with a cold potatoe." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 17:29:48 -0800 Reply-To: pdunagan@lycos.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: patrick dunagan Organization: Lycos Mail (http://www.mail.lycos.com:80) Subject: New from RED ANT PRESS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Posting this on behalf of the press: Red Ant Press is pleased to announce to new chapbooks: FESS PARKER by Patrick James Dunagan & BETTINA COFFIN by Micah Ballard Both books are stapled with shiny covers and are available for $5. Red Ant Press 203 NE 6th St Portland, OR 97232 ____________________________________________________________ Get advanced SPAM filtering on Webmail or POP Mail ... Get Lycos Mail! http://login.mail.lycos.com/r/referral?aid=27005 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 04:13:08 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karl-Erik Tallmo Subject: our American reflection Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" From for until Molly's reflection misinterpretation is most legitimate or lateral technical pleasures in number track reflection reflection operated the reflection reflection here of factor pleasure is pleasures of is is here our American reflection is suffering pleasures in grief roof and be is during precious Catholic November not opened to reflection reflection reflection too is purpose is will reflection is as reflection laborations of a living a proposed excavated mine amusement misinterpretation measured an of of an of legitimate or literal transmuting will reflection reflection produces increasingly /Karl-Erik Tallmo __________________________________________________________________ KARL-ERIK TALLMO, poet, writer, artist, journalist, living in Stockholm, Sweden. MAGAZINE: http://art-bin.com ARTWORK, WRITINGS etc.: http://www.nisus.se/tallmo/ __________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 23:22:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Carson MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Carson the heart of darkness in the jungle, the menace of men and animals, fires burning in the night, typhoon, soft trade-winds bringing men and women, ships that sail the sea, to their senses, to their destination, to the sun and the level ocean, to the moon and the level sky -:aye, this evil haunting us forever, the good Lord notwithstanding, Uma the native girl, Fiona the long-lost love disappeared far before the tale begins, Jim at the helm, Jim with the engines, Jim with the Beaufort scale over the top - you just had to look into his eyes, they were those of someone hunted far worse by himself than ever an enemy would bring to the fore - their eyes reflecting his, these pilgrims held to the ground by their stern belief, the captain grappling with the first mate, first mate with the engineer, stay out of it, there's the lush beauty of the islands, the dark beauty of the girl -:my old friend. he's always infuriated with Dylan Thomas and that line of his, as if Dylan hadn't done anything else in his bloody life. but he's got a chance to read it again, the outcast native girl, the missionaries, the dim view of humankind in general, more and more betrayal, another drink for the old man, penny for the old guy. his Lord Jim's the meandering of a soul with division inherent among the races, ratings, and that pain of his, a coward against those of Islam who tend beneath steel-grey skies - who tend, I say to my old friend, as if there's yet another mindless sea-captain, fat or thin or tall, who can tell? -:aye, the natives and their fearsome beliefs:aye, the voices breathing down our necks: aye, the voices chanting in the distance aye, the voices changing all about the fire, but where aye, the voices breathing down our necks aye, the natives and their fearsome beliefs aye, the whites and their pale skins and paler morals aye, the voices breathing down our necks:through my the heart of darkness in the jungle, the menace of men and animals, fires burning in the night, typhoon, soft trade-winds bringing men and women, ships that sail the sea, to their senses, to their destination, to the sun and the level ocean, to the moon and the level sky -! _ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 05:46:01 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karl-Erik Tallmo Subject: a statement on shortage Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" a statement about the comic labor shortage ... at least skittish radio logs still have the courage to face the truth ... the book's 3x3x3x30 verses of isolated experiences ... consumers are somewhat reluctantly optimistic about the next 12 months ... Yojio Kawabata shares his story about the shift to full consciousness ... the comic economic earthquake transient your name ... and how about discussing the progressing earth changes - are we really seeing something? ... the comic of horse clans, bonfires and the fire in the story ... pointing him out and unmasking him ... the storm when the world stops holding its collective breath ... and Salt Lake City people as usual talking about the comic war ... the futility of it all ... the futility of trying to establish dates ... goosey about the comic budget fight, are we? ... obviously very few ethnic friends ... sorry ... a ... collective effort as well as sound messages ... /Karl-Erik Tallmo __________________________________________________________________ KARL-ERIK TALLMO, poet, writer, artist, journalist, living in Stockholm, Sweden. MAGAZINE: http://art-bin.com ARTWORK, WRITINGS etc.: http://www.nisus.se/tallmo/ __________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 00:20:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Lacan Tomato MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Lacan Tomato Fabrice Roger-Lacan. true Ecco Spirit White-Delphin - Ecco - Womens Ecco Spirit White-Tomato - Ecco - Womens eBooks - Passion in Theory: Conceptions of Freud and Lacan Adult Costumes true p 40k So now I have 24 tomato plants all told, which considering that I have never had posted by Deirdre @ 12:04 PM. I think the reason the ideas of Lacan and Freud true hive.html 26k The ultimate irreducibility of noise is a founding element of Lacans address to his ... 1:54 AM Sarah Bunting of Tomato Nation writes about tech wars and the true tml 9k studies Psychology Title: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Lacan Author: Slavoj Zizek. Diane James Sun, Snow and RainDiane James Tomato, Lettuce an true 0915921.html 24k They had Aristotle, we had Jacques Lacan. They had Homer, we had Homer Simpson. ART AS A TOMATO: FRUIT OR VEGETABLE? KETCHUP OR SALSA? ... delay in the production of the plant hormone ethylene (Lacan and Bacou In tomato, inhibition of ethylene production by suppression of ACC synthase (Oeller et true Encyclopedia INFOSURR - Le surrealisme et ses alentours Jacques Lacan - lacan dot com zu Film,Theater und Fernsehsendungen SEQUENZ : berlin Tomato uk -flash ... pronoun references in Tomato clear 6 Of course, one of the meanings of word imaginary that Irigaray plays with is Jacques Lacans use of the term Rarely are pronoun references in Tomato clear 6 Of course, one of the meanings of word imaginary that Irigaray plays with is Jacques Lacans use of the term true End Lacan Tomato ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 23:26:53 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew Lundwall Subject: New from Poetic Inhalation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed PoeticInhalation.com and the Tin Lustre Mobile will present their first live poetry reading at the Thursday Reading Series at Arlington Central Library on Thursday, January 29, 2004 at 7:30pm. The event is scheduled to be taped by Arlington Independent Media. Readers inlcude: John Lawson, Levi Asher, Lyn Lifshin, Jennifer Barnes, Kevin Fitzgerald, Perry Lindstrom, Andrew Lundwall, Star Smith... Date: Thursday, January 29, 2004 Time: 7:30pm Place: Arlington Central Library, 1015 N. Quincy Street, Arlington, VA 22207 Admission: FREE Web info: http://www.poeticinhalation.com/eventinformation.html For more info email: andrewandstar@poeticinhalation.com * Please enjoy our continual PI updates... feature poem of the week... 1/12/04...dan campbell 1/5/04...nick piombino http://www.poeticinhalation.com/featurepoem.html new creative collaborations in our siamese surge gallery... http://www.poeticinhalation.com/siamese.html new poetry and writing from our regular levitation gallery contributors andrew lundwall...star smith...raymond federman...trupthi http://www.poeticinhalation.com/levitation.html * http://www.poeticinhalation.com home of the creative alliance http://www.poeticinhalation.com/creativealliance.html member of the independent press association http://www.indypress.org _________________________________________________________________ Rethink your business approach for the new year with the helpful tips here. http://special.msn.com/bcentral/prep04.armx ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 08:53:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: FW: Winter, 2003-04 issue of The Salt River Review MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The Winter, 2003-04 issue of The Salt River Review at http://www.poetserv.org is now online, with poetry by Yannis Ritsos, Jalina Mhyana, Laurel Snyder, Jeff Schiff, Halvard Johnson, & Joe Somoza; fiction by Rachel Schwartz, Margo Note, & Jesse Goldstein; literary Non-fiction from Katheen Alcalá & Stanley Jenkins. The Salt River Review considers manuscripts for its Spring, 2004 issue January through March. Please send to the appropriate editors and follow the guidelines: http://www.poetserv.org/guidelines.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 09:15:27 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rodrigo Toscano Subject: Cluthes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "But the democratic party (and poetry!) is slipping into the clutches of Marxism." (Kirby Olson) I look at this and other such statements by you Kirby, and think two things. One, how did such *reactionary* perspectives end up on this list. And two, how could I not think that certain sectors of the intellectual right, given this climate, would not end up as resident rightest gadflies on this list. You can say you're not "right" but almost every position you take glides alonside some kind of rightest perspective. I'm looking hard, by the way, for that water "slide" into marxist poetry (add history)...on the way down, I hope to run bump WEB Dubois, George Oppen, Langston Hughes, Pablo Neruda, Louis Aragon, Rene Otto Castillo, Bertold Brecht, Jeff Derkson, and lot's of great poets on this list, actually. Does this sound commisorial to you? Am I a commisar? Is my snow-stiff overcoat long enough weather a windstorm of posts following this? Will I oppress your poetry? Will I oppress you criticism? Will I mislead your students? Will the lambkins take their clothes off and polar bear it down the slide? Will there be first, second, third, fourth, and fifth wave feminists waiting at the bottom...let's hope so...I'm commin down, boys, girls... Would of any us here *joyfully* be your "own" "personal"..."commisar"..."someone to"...mhmmm... Do your daily rations of the-opposition-is-the-problems make us non-"post" feminists--shy. Do your daily rations of the-opposition-is-the-problems make us non-"post" feminists--shy Do your daily rations of the-opposition-is-the-problems make us non-"post" feminists--shy Non- "post" marxist" Non-"post "class " Non- "post" race critiquest...abolitionism... Non- "post" and two, how does it feel to be the resident reactionary of this list...do you get kick backs from somewhere...non-contractual that is. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 09:45:25 -0500 Reply-To: editor@pavementsaw.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Pavement Saw Press Subject: AWP MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Would anyone like to visit wonderfully warm Columbus Ohio on your way to AWP in Chicago in late march for a paid reading of your own work? For Larry's Poetry Forum, a series in it's 21st year, I have left the week before and after open. Monday March 22nd & Monday March 29th Readings are 2 20-25 minute sets. Lately the audience is 50-70 people. Backchannel me for details within the week. Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus OH 43206 USA http://pavementsaw.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 09:41:06 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Brennan Subject: Prosthetics Are So Advanced Self-Mutilation On Rise In Military Comments: To: frankfurt-school@lists.village.virginia.edu, corp-focus@lists.essential.org, WRYTING-L@LISTSERV.UTORONTO.CA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Cynicism in the defense of liberty is no vice." Click here: The Assassinated Press Multiple Amputee Finally Succumbs to Wounds: Head Shot Takes Life of 'Miracle Marine': Wife Shoots Marine As He Goes Anal On TV Interviewer: Marvin Minsky: Prosthetic Head Just Weeks Away: Prosthetics Are So Advanced Self-Mutilation On Rise In Military: Gulf of Tonkin+WMD=60,000 American Corpses and Counting: Rumsfeld: Americans Don't Need No WMD Canards And FUX News Network Lies. They're Just As Capable Of Terrifying Themselves As They Are Of Lying To Themselves by Vance Beezdik The Assassinated Press They hang the man and flog the woman That steal the goose from off the common, But let the greater villain loose That steals the common from the goose. ".....at a time when I am speaking to you about the paradox of desire -- in the sense that different goods obscure it -- you can hear outside the awful language of power. There's no point in asking whether they are sincere or hypocritical, whether they want peace of whether they calculate the risks. The dominating impression as such a moment is that something that may pass for a prescribed good; information addresses and captures impotent crowds to whom it is poured forth like a liquor that leaves them dazed as they move toward the slaughter house. One might even ask if one would allow the cataclysm to occur without first giving free reign to this hubbub of voices...." ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 10:34:56 -0500 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: Reading at Sizl Gallery, Carrboro, NC (Durham Herald-Sun) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.herald-sun.com/orange/10-434526.html Words will sizzle as poets read at Sizl By Susan Broili : The Herald-Sun sbroili@heraldsun.com Jan 12, 2004 : 7:07 pm ET CARRBORO -- Words will soon sizzle along with visual art displays at Sizl Gallery, when Ken Rumble, a poet who lives in Pittsboro, brings the Desert City Poetry Series to the Carr boro gallery. Begun in Winston-Salem in 2002, the series offers a venue to established, younger poets whose work pushes the boundaries of contemporary poetry. The series debuts locally at 8 p.m. on Jan. 22, and will feature Carrboro Poet Laureate Patrick Herron as well as nationally known Duke University professor Joseph Donahue. The reading is free and open to the public. The gallery is at 405 E. Main St. Sizl owner Karen Shelton said the series fits the gallery's mission. "I tend to bring in contemporary emerging artists. It's just really exciting young energy," Shelton said. While all the artists aren't necessarily young, most are, Shelton said. The focus on youth has been successful for the gallery, which has featured work by artists in their early 20s. A case in point is artist Anna Podris, whose work Sizl started carrying when the artist was just 21. "I've sold over 40 paintings of her work," Shelton said. "Her work is figurative and dreamlike and pushes the boundaries a little bit." The gallery owner said she's also made a point of offering diverse arts such as music and dancing. "I'm just trying to be as community-oriented as possible ? rather than just a business," she said. "I think people who run galleries have a desire for it to be more than a business and want to educate the public about all the arts." Rumble said he was looking for a local art gallery to host the series and Sizl seemed just the place. Aside from admiring the selection Shelton features, Rumble was looking for a different kind of venue for the event. "For the most part, poetry is in a coffeehouse where you have to fight over the noise of the espresso maker, or in a university ... where people are already interested in poetry," Rumble said. "I'm interested in creating a venue for poetry outside of universities and colleges." He said he hopes such a series will also encourage a local poetry community to build and develop. Rumble tries to choose poets who have published a book-length collection of poetry. Beyond that, it's a matter of personal taste as well as opportunity, he said. He will continue the mix of local and national poets he featured when the series was based in Winston-Salem. One local and one national poet will read each month at Sizl. Rumble said he sees the series as part of his job. A published poet himself, with an MFA in poetry from Penn State, Rumble teaches poetry at UNC Greensboro and writes reviews of poetry books. At present, his poetry series is dependent on the "good graces" of the participating poets, but he said he plans to seek grants that would enable the poets to receive an honorarium. Rumble described Donahue's poetry as "mystical" and "like following a looping and twisting but fascinating trail." Donahue is the author of several poetry collections including "World Well Broken," "Terra Lucida" and "Incidental Eclipse." A long time New Yorker who received his doctorate from Columbia, Donahue comes to North Carolina most recently from Seattle. His poems have appeared in "New Directions," "St. Marks Newsletter," "Talisman," "The Village Voice Literary Supplement" and "The World." In addition to serving as Carrboro's poet laureate, Herron is a research assistant with ibilio.org in Chapel Hill. He is the author of several poetry manuscripts including "Hyperlustrous Purse" and "Be Somebody." Herron's poems have appeared in "Jacket," "Canary River," "VeRT" and "Fulcrum." Two of his poems appeared as part of Project Hope at the Tokyo Metropolitan Art Museum in 2002. "I think he's an excellent poet," Rumble said of Herron. "His poetry is a full-frontal assault on all the things there should be a full-frontal assault on. On the other hand, he can be remarkably tender and eloquent on a lot of feelings people share." --- WHAT: Local debut of the Desert City Poetry Series, featuring Duke University professor Joseph Donahue and Carrboro Poet Laureate Patrick Herron. WHERE: Sizl Gallery, 405 E. Main St., Carrboro. WHEN: 8 p.m. Jan. 22. COST: Free. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 11:13:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: the sniping Democrats In-Reply-To: <003001c3dac8$f6f6ce30$d1fcba89@compone> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > guns don't kill people. eh? > > That's not funny. There are people who actually say that. -- George Bowering There are minus degrees? 303 Fielden Ave. Port Colborne. ON, L3K 4T5 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 11:06:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tim Peterson Subject: Re: class, the muted variable Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I think we need a new Popular Front... Seriously though, while I disagree with much of what Kirby says, I think he makes two good points: 1) the left has a kind of machinery that takes over and often tends to make its own ideas obsolete before progress has actually been made 2) there are indeed Marxist underpinnings for a lot of contemporary leftist rhetoric. Now I tend to have a certain fondness for Marxism, but I do wonder how useful it is as a tool for looking at class in America... we're not living in Europe or the nineteenth century anymore, and a lot of the signifiers we associate with class are different now, especially since the invention and proliferation on a large scale of demography, marketing, and PR. Class in America has an elusive, mass, popular component to it that those in power attempt to measure and control by means of these tools. I think we need to take another, more nuanced (perhaps non-binary?) look at how class works in this country, because knee-jerk Marxism, despite my innate fondness for it, isn't terribly helpful at this point. Tim Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 19:24:45 -0500 From: George Bowering Subject: Re: class, the muted variable >> But the democratic party (and poetry!) is slipping into the >>clutches >>of Marxism. I know that it is often difficult to pick up sarcasm on the web sometimes. But. Well, I know that a lot of USAmericans think that their Democratic Party is "the left," but I havent heard this "communist" stuff since satires on the McCarthy hearings. -- George Bowering There are minus degrees? 303 Fielden Ave. Port Colborne. ON, L3K 4T5 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 13:39:22 -0330 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Hehir Subject: Re: the sniping Democrats In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII eh? I think their called Canadians eh. On Thu, 15 Jan 2004, George Bowering wrote: > > guns don't kill people. eh? > > > > > That's not funny. There are people who actually say that. > -- > George Bowering > There are minus degrees? > > 303 Fielden Ave. > Port Colborne. ON, > L3K 4T5 > -- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 12:13:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: Re: the sniping Democrats In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit no, they're called canadians Quoting Kevin Hehir : > eh? I think their called Canadians eh. > > On Thu, 15 Jan 2004, George Bowering wrote: > > > > guns don't kill people. eh? > > > > > > > > That's not funny. There are people who actually say that. > > -- > > George Bowering > > There are minus degrees? > > > > 303 Fielden Ave. > > Port Colborne. ON, > > L3K 4T5 > > > > -- > -- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 www.boogcity.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 17:37:12 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Frank Sherlock Subject: Re: class, the muted variable Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Didn't I show that race, gender, class are communist designations arising from within Marxism? Can you refute this? I gave a very specific example. Can you refute it? I can't respond to the board today because I have used my two responses. -- Kirby Well Kirby, first things first. The very specific example you gave is ill-informed. The communist accusations/associations were never more attached to an administration than it was to your very specific example- FDR. The next three Democrat presidents sent Americans to Asia to kill communists. Jimmy Carter's a good Christian & Clinton...well, enough said. If he's your idea of a Marxist sympathizer, you need to give talk radio a rest. It's important to talk about this, because you're using "slipping into the clutches" as a present issue- as if it's happening now. Truth is, as I've stated before- this is House of Un-American Activities (30's) & McCarthy/John Birch Society (50's) & Barry Goldwater (60's) & Ronald Reagan (80's) & Rush Limbaugh (90's) rhetoric. They've all been warning us about the Democrats "slipping into the clutches of Marxism." The forementioned champions of unabashed capitalism vigorously defended a system that reinforced the denial of the human rights of women, minorities & working people. This is a fact, not communist propaganda. The guardians of "Americanism" called ANYONE who worked on behalf of feminism, racial equity or labor "communists." This is a pointed smear in most cases, intended to marginalize the very real struggles of civil rights, feminism & unionization. Your terminology argument is irrelevant. That was not the point you were making. Marx did not invent melanin or the XX chromosone. These are real people who have, & continue to engage in struggles for liberation. They are not theoretical inventions. Marx is indeed used- by rightists as a tactical scare to continue expoitation of said groups. Your claim about Democrats in "the clutches of Marxism" continues a dangerous & poisonous tradition that attempts to undermine the work for social justice. Frank Sherlock >From: Kirby Olson >Reply-To: olsonjk@delhi.edu >To: Frank Sherlock >Subject: Re: class, the muted variable >Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 17:38:54 -0500 > >Didn't I show that race, gender, class are communist designations arising >from >within Marxism? Can you refute this? I gave a very specific example. Can >you >refute it? > >I can't respond to the board today because I have used my two responses. > >-- Kirby > >Frank Sherlock wrote: > > > "But the democratic party (and poetry!) is slipping into the clutches of > > Marxism." > > > > Kirby, these words could have come from Martin Dies (chairman of the >HUAAC) > > in 1938. His conclusion- there were aprroximately 3,000 communists >working > > for the government under...you guessed it, FDR! > > > > And let us not forget Henry Wallace, FDR Cabinet member & Vice >President. He > > ran against Truman in 1948 because he opposed his Cold War policies. He >was > > disgraced as a communist & banished from mainstream political life, >feeding > > anti-New Deal bonfires for decades. > > > > The Democrat/Commie connection's been Bircher rhetoric for 70 years. >When > > are these Marxists going to clutch already? > > > > Frank Sherlock > > > > >From: Kirby Olson > > >Reply-To: olsonjk@delhi.edu > > >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > >Subject: Re: class, the muted variable > > >Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 16:54:25 -0500 > > > > > >Maria, you made a big mistake not listening to Ginsberg. Taking LSD >was > > >the > > >greatest thing that ever happened to me. When Rimbaud talks about >colors > > >of > > >vowels, it's no sweat, I was there, and know just what he was talking > > >about. And > > >I did talk to God. It's just that it also killed half my friends. > > >Ginsberg's > > >ideas were meant for tough and or lucky people. I went nuts for about >two > > >years, > > >but it was all kind of fun from this end, and showed me all kinds of >things > > >that > > >I wouldn't have otherwise known. For some reason, however, it >permanently > > >destabilized many of my friends, and a lot of them either killed >themselves > > >or > > >ended in asylums. They're English muffins. What can you say? It >worked > > >for > > >Ginsberg, and it worked for me, but it probably killed a hundred >thousand > > >people. He wasn't just a poet -- he was a political leader with >enormous > > >persuasive ability who had access to the mainstream media. And yes, it >was > > >Dick > > >Cavett who interviewed him!!!! The only clue I gave was pointy nose, >and > > >you > > >bagged it from that. Very good sleuthing, I'd say. > > > > > >I think one of our problems is a huge discrepancy concerning where >Marxism > > >and > > >"leftism" and where, say, the New Deal (Roosevelt) fits. Roosevelt was >not > > >a > > >Marxist by any stretch! Olson, who worked with Roosevelt, was also not >a > > >communist. But the democratic party (and poetry!) is slipping into the > > >clutches > > >of Marxism. > > > > > >Race, gender, class all come out of the class-bound ideas of Marx. >Simone > > >de B. > > >says so about her gender ideas in The 2nd Sex. And McKinnon and >Dworkin > > >and most > > >feminists use this filter. As do most race theorists. And it's gotten >to > > >be a > > >terrific mess. It's hard for me to understand how such a blunt >instrument > > >can > > >help us understand anything about anything. (I'm in favor of Kantian > > >feminists! > > >and liberal feminists, but I'm not in favor of very much regarding > > >Marxism.) > > > > > >Just examine class thought. If you say -- this person is a >middle-class > > >white > > >male, for instance, it could be Ralph Nader or it could be Ted Bundy. >The > > >specifics of who a person is are not even vaguely captured by these >very > > >broad > > >terms. They mean almost nothing, and yet nobody seems to examine this. > > >They are > > >huge tools wielded by almost everybody now in academia, but the tools >are > > >just > > >delusions. > > > > > >If I say African-American female from the middle class it could be a >woman > > >who's > > >gone nuts and is in Bellevue and was found shitting on the street in >front > > >of the > > >Chase Manhattan Bank or it could be Nobel Prize winner Toni Morrison. > > > > > >The specifics of a person require tremendous research -- there are > > >literally > > >thousands of bits of data that we need in order to understand even the > > >slightest > > >thing about another person. Those three bits of data won't get it. >They > > >were > > >used in the Soviet Union to kill people. Now they're being used in > > >academia to > > >wipe people out, but only through kangaroo courts such as your attempt >to > > >frame > > >Tolkein. Even the slightest defense and the kangaroo court disappears >and > > >is > > >ashamed of itself. > > > > > >But these three units are used either to put people in good boxes or >bad > > >boxes by > > >almost the entire "left" these days as if they are something like an > > >adequate > > >tool. They are just garbage. > > > > > >The big problem I see with the "left" is that it no longer has natural > > >predators. So the ideas go on getting dumber and dumber. > > > > > >PArt of the reason I'm attacking these ideas on this board is because I > > >have to > > >start a clean sweep in order to create some competition for the dumber > > >ideas of > > >the left. When dumb ideas even get into the world of poetry, there is > > >nowhere > > >left to go. The left is soft, and I worry that with this softening, >the > > >right > > >will take over the country. I want gridlock for as long as possible so > > >that we > > >don't get either a Marxist or a Calvinist take-over (Bush and his gang > > >belong to > > >a church called United Methodist which is a Calvinist-inspired church). > > > > > >I'm attacking rather clumsily, and am getting wiped out here and there, >but > > >I > > >don't care. I think the ideas of the left -- including that unwanted > > >children > > >should be put to death by science -- are completely nuts. Peter Singer >at > > >Princeton is now arguing that children UP TO AGE THREE should be able >to be > > >"aborted". > > > > > >I think the ghosts of dead children hang around the necks of those who >have > > >murdered them just like the dead children in Shakespeare hang around >the > > >necks of > > >those who slaughtered them in order to rise. (In many of the history >plays > > >a > > >child is killed in order to clear the way to the throne. When this is > > >done, the > > >children literally haunt the killer -- as they do most notably to >Richard > > >III. > > >He finally collapses under the guilt and stress of this.) It just >isn't ok > > >to > > >slaughter our children or other people's for any reason. Children >should > > >be > > >sacrosanct because they are completely defenseless. I think it should >be > > >legal > > >to have an abortion, and in the case of a rape I would not know what to > > >say, but > > >the people I know who have done it (abortion) become depressed for >years > > >and > > >never completely recover. It haunts them. There is a reason for >this. > > >It's > > >wrong, and so fundamentally wrong that the people who do it can never >shake > > >that > > >feeling free. Do it if you can live with it. I would never kill my > > >children for > > >any reason, but I would try to have mercy to those who have taken this > > >extraordinary course. It does, however, make me shudder that people >could > > >be so > > >merciless as to think that there are not tremendous psychological >problems > > >attacked to this supposedly simple operation for absolutely anybody >with a > > >soul. > > >(Killing abortion doctors is not the answer, either. It's just a lot >more > > >complicated than either side sees it.) > > > > > >-- Kirby Olson > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Learn how to choose, serve, and enjoy wine at Wine @ MSN. > > http://wine.msn.com/ > _________________________________________________________________ There are now three new levels of MSN Hotmail Extra Storage! Learn more. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=hotmail/es2&ST=1 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 10:16:05 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Corbett Subject: Re: class, the muted variable In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII George, Unfortunately, everything old is new again, at least in regard to slurring liberals in this fashion. it never really went away and David Horowitz has made a career out of calling universities Marxist (tho' at least having worked for Ramparts, he knows more about what is to be Marxist then your typical conservative). i think of it as the tourette's of the right, but some days it just feel like tic. Robert -- Robert Corbett, Ph.C. "Given the distance of communication, Coordinator of New Programs I hope the words aren't idling on the B40D Gerberding map of my fingertips, but igniting the Phone: (206) 616-0657 wild acres within the probabilities of Fax: (206) 685-3218 spelling" - Rosmarie Waldrop UW Box: 351237 On Wed, 14 Jan 2004, George Bowering wrote: > >> But the democratic party (and poetry!) is slipping into the > >>clutches > >>of Marxism. > > I know that it is often difficult to pick up sarcasm on the web sometimes. > > But. > > Well, I know that a lot of USAmericans think that their Democratic > Party is "the left," but I havent heard this "communist" stuff since > satires on the McCarthy hearings. > -- > George Bowering > There are minus degrees? > > 303 Fielden Ave. > Port Colborne. ON, > L3K 4T5 > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 13:21:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Resent-From: Poetics List Administration Comments: Originally-From: "Vernon Frazer" From: Poetics List Administration Subject: Re: Bowering's There Are Minus Degrees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would assume so because I can't think of any other way to measure Bush's IQ. Vernon ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 12:54:47 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christine Murray Subject: Cluthes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Rodrigo, Thanks for this poetic rejoinder. I really liked hearing it & think it, well, long overdue. Not because it targets one person, but because it responds directly to some of the wandering assumptions behind strange claims about what is in fact a fictional U.S. American (so-called) centrist normalcy, a reluctance to take a stand where such claims are being made here and elsewhere from that *normalizing* position, about all sorts of unlikely things. Thanks for clearing the air. In my opinion. For what it's worth. Chris Murray http://texfiles.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 11:03:58 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ram Devineni Subject: American Poets in Santiago for Neruda & FuseBox3 In-Reply-To: <75.20ab6dab.2d37fa7f@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Dear Friends: This month, several prominent American poets will be in Santiago, Chile to read with Chilean poets at Neruda's house to hundreds of people. The American poets are Mark Doty, Willie Perdomo, Elizabeth Alexander, and Stephanos Papadopoulos. To view the reading, please go to www.concierto.cl The readings are part of the celebrations of Neruda´s 100th anniversary and organized by Poesía 100%, Fundación Neruda, and Universidad Diego Portales. Rodrigo Rojas, one of our editors, helped to organize the program. READING: Split Seconds: Respiro and Rattapallax Multimedia Happening. January 31, 7-9 pm. Knitting Factory, 74 Leonard St., NYC. Featuring Eugene Ostashevsky, Adina Dabija, Jeet Thayil and Bombay Down. AI poetry by Ray Kurzweil's Ramona. Film by Zoe Beloff and video performance by Kurt Ralske. Also, I happy to announce the launch of FUSEBOX 3: Fusebox3 poems edited by Rosemary Dun: Rosie Lugosi, Sara-Jane Arbury, Tom Phillips, Lucy English, Rob Gee, Helen Gregory, David Hill, bOYDON gOODMAN, Kevin Higgins, Attila the Stockbroker, Crispin Thomas, Jem Rolls, Helên Thomas, Khadijah Ibrahiim Stuart Butler, Anita Govan & Diké Omeje. Audio: Nathan Filer, Bucky & Khadijah Ibrahiim. Article: The Age of MC Solaar. Football Poetry: Crispin Thomas, Rob Gee, Rosemary Dun, Tony Lewis-Jones & Stuart Butler. Young Pilipino Americans edited by Barbara Jane Reyes: Patrick Rosal, Paolo Javier, Sarah Gambito, Tony Robles, Jason Bayani, Irene Faye Duller, Maiana Minahal, Joel Barraquiel Tan, Irene Suico Soriano, Michelle Macaraeg Bautista & Joseph O. Legaspi. Terror in Nigeria and Abroad edited by Michael Lohr: Dr. Yusuf Adamu, Oritseweyinmi Oghanrandukun Olomu, Abubakar Ali Abare, Iboro Joseph, Olutayo Kadmiel Osunsan, Charles Njoku, Mohammad awwal abubakar, Anant Kumar, Durlabh Singh, Avik Chanda, Jerry Rea Ellis, Birgitta Kassandra, Mohammed Ahmed & Rayn Roberts. National Young Writer's Festival (Newcastle, Australia): Selections by Gabrielle Everall and Jill Jones. Reviews: Elaine Sexton's Sleuth / Mick Delap's River Turning Tidal / Sherry Fairchok's The Palace of Ashes ===== Please send future emails to devineni@rattapallax.com for press devineni@dialoguepoetry.org for UN program __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 20:20:50 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karl-Erik Tallmo Subject: Re: New from Poetic Inhalation In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Inspiration: http://www.nisus.se/inspiration/inspiration.ram Karl-Erik Tallmo _________________________________________________________________ KARL-ERIK TALLMO, poet, writer, artist, journalist, living in Stockholm, Sweden. MAGAZINE: http://art-bin.com ARTWORK, WRITINGS etc.: http://www.nisus.se/tallmo/ __________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 11:34:01 -0800 Reply-To: Ishaq1823@telus.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ishaq Organization: Selah7 http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html Subject: JANUARY EVENTS/ PT. 2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit please post & spread _____________________________ ________________________________ In my New Year email, I had made the error of counting the Muslim Calendar from the viewpoint of the Solar Calendar and did not realize that Muslims use the Lunar Calendar to count from... a difference of approximately 11 days a year... In my error, I gave up the following info: "& it is the Year 1382 given as the moment of Mohammed's flight to Medina" According to my critics regarding this error, IT IS ACTUALLY THE YEAR 1424 ... my bad! ======= Meanwhile... Great Things Are Still Happening in Brooklyn & throughout the City! ======= 1st & 3rd Saturdays Writers' Workshop with Louis Reyes Rivera Poetry, Fiction, Nonfiction, Essays Basics & Advanced Saturday, January 17, 2003 12 Noon ======= Saturday Night Jazz @ Sistas' presents Masters of the Music Series featuring Ben Dixon & Company Saturday, January 17, 2003 with two sets, at 9 and 10:30pm ======= 1st & 3rd Sundays Jazzoetry & Open Mic featuring The Jazzoets with Louis Reyes Rivera Ahmed Abdullah, Atiba Kwabena Ngoma & YOU! ======= Sistas' Place 456 Nostrand Ave. (at Nostrand & Jefferson) Take the 'A' train to Brooklyn for information: 718 398 1766 ======= SPECIAL NOTE: As many of you may know by now, Nuyorican Poet Pedro Pietri is currently in desperate need of special therapy he can't get in the U.S. and must go to Mexico for... Donations can be made to THE PEDRO PIETRI HEALTH BENEFIT FUND c/o Nuyorican Poets Café P.O. Box 20794 New York, NY 10009 ======= Meanwhile,... The Friends of Pedro Pietri request your presence at the following EMERGENCY POETRY, MUSIC & DANCE FUNDRAISERS for EL REVERENDO PEDRO PIETRI: Wednesday, January Ý21, 2004 THE NUYORICAN POETS CAFÉ 236 East 3rd Street (btwn Avenues B & C) from 7:00 to 9:00pm ======= Thursday, February Ý12, 2004 TALLER BORICUAÝ (aka Julia de Burgos Cultural Center) 1680 Lexington Avenue (SW corner of East 106th St. & Lexington Ave.) from 7:00pm to 12 Midnight ======= A website to check out: nathanielturner.com ======= Tune In To WBAI (99.5 FM) Thursdays @ 2pm Louis Reyes Rivera hosting PERSPECTIVE (where art & politic meet) On the internet: www.WBAI.org [Please be advised that to secure internet access to PERSPECTIVE tune in before 1:45pm. Phonelines Crowded!] Contact: Shamal Books, GPO Box 16, NYC 10116 Louisreyesrivera@aol.com -- - ___ Stay Strong "Peace sells but who's buying?" Megadeth "This mathematical rhythmatical mechanism enhances my wisdom of Islam, keeps me calm from doing you harm, when I attack, it's Vietnam" --HellRazah "It's not too good to stay in a white man's country too long" Mutabartuka http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html http://awol.objector.org/artistprofiles/welfarepoets.html http://ilovepoetry.com/search.asp?keywords=braithwaite&orderBy=date http://www.dpgrecordz.com/fredwreck/ http://www.lowliferecords.co.uk/ http://loudandoffensive.com/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/THCO2 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 14:36:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tim Peterson Subject: Charles Alexander Reading, & Talk about Chax Press and the Book Arts Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed A Poetry Reading and A Talk about Chax Press & the Book Arts by CHARLES ALEXANDER author of a new book of poetry, Near or Random Acts (Singing Horse Press) Charles Alexander is founder, director, and book artist of Chax Press, a publisher of trade literary editions and handmade letterpress books, which explore innovative writing and its conjunction with book forms. Chax Press has published books by poets such as Jackson Mac Low, Sheila Murphy, Myung Mi Kim, Hank Lazer, bp Nichol, Ron Silliman, Gil Ott, Karen MacCormack, Nathaniel Tarn, Kathleen Fraser, Beverly Dahlen, Norman Fischer, and Lyn Hejinian. Alexander's own books of poetry include Hopeful Buildings (Chax Press, Tucson, 1990), arc of light / dark matter (Segue Books, New York, 1992), Pushing Water: parts one through six (Standing Stones Press, Morris, MN, 1998), Pushing Water: part seven (Chax Press, Tucson), Four Ninety Eight to Seven (Meow Press, Buffalo, NY, 1998), and Etudes: D & D (Quarry Press, 2001). Near or Random Acts has just been published by Singing Horse Press, and Certain Slants is forthcoming from Junction Press. Chax Press Talk: Noon 217 CLAS (College of Liberal Arts & Sciences) building 215 Glenbrook Road (off North Eagleville Road) University of Connecticut Storrs, CT Poetry Reading: 4 PM, CLAS building 215 Glenbrook Road (off North Eagleville Road) University of Connecticut Storrs, CT from NEAR OR RANDOM ACTS: (do days have autobiographies or does one's sense of pattern emerge from day's moments, imprints on time to come?) not foot fall but fall of foot's fall in time come down from time when what is heard is what happens, poem's shore step to fall and fault from where one becomes one less fifty four tea nine morning or time to wake up self self that occurs between syllables syllables that occur between breaths breath that stops for tea at nine tea at four tea for two and more than you know in war than you know in peace than you make with love than you love with fear than you fear with faith than you fate to see than you find and free hear with the five and the seven here with the myth and the madness hear under the fall of foot here a day then a night hear under the wave here if we are hear first the one for saints (bpNichol) second the one for permission (Robert Duncan) third the tall zip ode (Paul Metcalf) fourth the vaquero cowboy moon (Edward Dorn) fifth the words on faces (Hannah Weiner) sixth the green man arc (Ronald Johnson) now the face of light (Stan Brakhage) call them all they stay where the word foot falls where to act is from image and rhythm and knowing a construct one may happen to come across in time where the numbers are loosed and the words in rows are the world's eros for light foot falls there step is to feel the light in the sunflower house again where three sun girls circle and turn and turn and ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 13:46:49 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: Re: Cluthes/The Dossier Project: Right & Left vs. Patriot Act Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Last night in Milwaukee there opened the exhibtion and learning/organizing Project Dossier. It is an active project to educate people to protest the Patriot Act and all connected actions by the Bush Administration. The Lead speakers were from the ACLU and as well Bob Barr, one of the most hostile and aggresive Congressional leaders in the fight to impeach President Clinton. Both "left" and far right fighting against the intrusion and stripping away of Fourth Amendment Rights. (It is for the most part never noted, but people on probation/parole pretty much lose this Right already--) --dbchirot >From: Rodrigo Toscano >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Cluthes >Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 09:15:27 EST > >"But the democratic party (and poetry!) is slipping into the clutches of >Marxism." (Kirby Olson) > >I look at this and other such statements by you Kirby, and think two >things. > >One, how did such *reactionary* perspectives end up on this list. And two, >how could I not think that certain sectors of the intellectual right, given >this climate, would not end up as resident rightest gadflies on this list. >You >can say you're not "right" but almost every position you take glides >alonside >some kind of rightest perspective. > >I'm looking hard, by the way, for that water "slide" into marxist poetry >(add >history)...on the way down, I hope to run bump WEB Dubois, George Oppen, >Langston Hughes, Pablo Neruda, Louis Aragon, Rene Otto Castillo, Bertold >Brecht, >Jeff Derkson, and lot's of great poets on this list, actually. > >Does this sound commisorial to you? Am I a commisar? Is my snow-stiff >overcoat long enough weather a windstorm of posts following this? Will I >oppress >your poetry? Will I oppress you criticism? Will I mislead your students? >Will >the lambkins take their clothes off and polar bear it down the slide? Will >there be first, second, third, fourth, and fifth wave feminists waiting at >the >bottom...let's hope so...I'm commin down, boys, girls... > >Would of any us here *joyfully* be your "own" >"personal"..."commisar"..."someone to"...mhmmm... > >Do your daily rations of the-opposition-is-the-problems make us non-"post" >feminists--shy. >Do your daily rations of the-opposition-is-the-problems make us non-"post" >feminists--shy >Do your daily rations of the-opposition-is-the-problems make us non-"post" >feminists--shy >Non- "post" marxist" >Non-"post "class " >Non- "post" race critiquest...abolitionism... >Non- "post" > > >and two, how does it feel to be the resident reactionary of this list...do >you get kick backs from somewhere...non-contractual that is. _________________________________________________________________ Get a FREE online virus check for your PC here, from McAfee. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 15:00:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: Correction/Charles Alexander Reading, & Talk about Chax Press and the Book Arts In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040115143300.02cb2718@po14.mit.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit hi all, tim's out of posts today and he asked me to repost this event(s) listing, as the date was left off of the last one. best, david -------------------------------------------------------------- A Poetry Reading and A Talk about Chax Press & the Book Arts by CHARLES ALEXANDER author of a new book of poetry, Near or Random Acts (Singing Horse Press) Charles Alexander is founder, director, and book artist of Chax Press, a publisher of trade literary editions and handmade letterpress books, which explore innovative writing and its conjunction with book forms. Chax Press has published books by poets such as Jackson Mac Low, Sheila Murphy, Myung Mi Kim, Hank Lazer, bp Nichol, Ron Silliman, Gil Ott, Karen MacCormack, Nathaniel Tarn, Kathleen Fraser, Beverly Dahlen, Norman Fischer, and Lyn Hejinian. Alexander's own books of poetry include Hopeful Buildings (Chax Press, Tucson, 1990), arc of light / dark matter (Segue Books, New York, 1992), Pushing Water: parts one through six (Standing Stones Press, Morris, MN, 1998), Pushing Water: part seven (Chax Press, Tucson), Four Ninety Eight to Seven (Meow Press, Buffalo, NY, 1998), and Etudes: D & D (Quarry Press, 2001). Near or Random Acts has just been published by Singing Horse Press, and Certain Slants is forthcoming from Junction Press. Chax Press Talk: Wednesday, Feb 4, Noon 217 CLAS (College of Liberal Arts & Sciences) building 215 Glenbrook Road (off North Eagleville Road) University of Connecticut Storrs, CT Poetry Reading: Wednesday, Feb 4, 4 PM, CLAS building 215 Glenbrook Road (off North Eagleville Road) University of Connecticut Storrs, CT from NEAR OR RANDOM ACTS: (do days have autobiographies or does one's sense of pattern emerge from day's moments, imprints on time to come?) not foot fall but fall of foot's fall in time come down from time when what is heard is what happens, poem's shore step to fall and fault from where one becomes one less fifty four tea nine morning or time to wake up self self that occurs between syllables syllables that occur between breaths breath that stops for tea at nine tea at four tea for two and more than you know in war than you know in peace than you make with love than you love with fear than you fear with faith than you fate to see than you find and free hear with the five and the seven here with the myth and the madness hear under the fall of foot here a day then a night hear under the wave here if we are hear first the one for saints (bpNichol) second the one for permission (Robert Duncan) third the tall zip ode (Paul Metcalf) fourth the vaquero cowboy moon (Edward Dorn) fifth the words on faces (Hannah Weiner) sixth the green man arc (Ronald Johnson) now the face of light (Stan Brakhage) call them all they stay where the word foot falls where to act is from image and rhythm and knowing a construct one may happen to come across in time where the numbers are loosed and the words in rows are the world's eros for light foot falls there step is to feel the light in the sunflower house again where three sun girls circle and turn and turn and ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 14:20:09 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brent Bechtel Subject: Thank you. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I wanted to say thanks to everyone who has taken time to check out my = chapbook, and all of the kind remarks. It's very nice - I didn't think = so many people would look into it, so - quite a nice birthday surprise. Sincerely, Brent ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 15:21:19 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Craig Allen Conrad Subject: Re: the sniping Democrats / fear of language? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > as a poet, i feel that one of my jobs is to make > > the fear of language an obsolete fear. >Permission to quote, sir? >Gwyn McVay ------- George Bowering wrote: >As a poet, I would be very disappointed to see that happen. The fear >of language replaced the fear of God, as recommended by my church >when I was a kid in a church. To see language robbed of its power and >the respect due it would be very sad indeed. to George and the others who agree, so you see value in a fear of language? okay, maybe you are seeing something that i haven't seen, so please delve deeper into why you believe this. i for one would appreciate reading why you believe this. but meanwhile, here's how i see it: the fear of language is an extension of the other constructs of our culture which are based on fear. not having enough money not being beautiful not being loved the list is endless, but fear of language has always seemed to me (depending on which words of course and/or the topic of conversation, or poem) to plug into any number of other fears of how one should act or what one feels of one's worth. and fear--as we know--is very much part of creating respect in our culture, and keeps the engine full of gas, because, once fear is instilled, it's difficult to shut it down because courage is called for, and courage is always in short supply when you've been taught to respond and react to the world from fear. fear has been used to motivate nations for a very long time and the result is a world with bigger & BIGGER bombs which lead to bigger & BIGGER fears. when i say that it is my job as a poet to make fear of language an obsolete fear, i am saying that language is a door into what controls those larger fears in our world, and to create room for everyone to set aside their fears of language is key to helping put an end to the madness of war and consumerism and blatant environmental destruction and abuse of animals --and of course the abuse of one another. so i do not see the value in continuing the maintenance of fear of language. as a poet i want to be fearless with words, and by example show others that it's okay, that your hair really won't burst into flames, or that God doesn't strike you down. if respecting language in your terms means to keep the power (the fear) maintained, than i will not respect language in the same way, and it's as simple as that. my idea is that the world is too beautiful to continue allowing the abuse. language (as corny as this may wind up sounding) can free us. it does not have to pound us into submission. CAConrad http://phillysound.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 12:26:10 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lewis LaCook Subject: My gelded town sucks Comments: cc: jen berry , Ron Conn , cyberculture , Kathryn Dean-Dielman , karen stoic lemley , underground poetry , naked readings , Renee , rhizome , webartery , wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Waiting for me in the arms of a guilty city, you grow cold and vague with snow. At a certain point in dialogue with the sycophant I require no more input, and no input requires me. You'll be able to swim now, head just above the un- comfortable line that dragged your mother past your dad, himself glazed and frosted, buffed like a mirror but rippled to distort. He avoids the city; nothing grows there, or flies, or swims. But your mother's just fine, with her house a conversation piece at last. When I talk now clauses buckle over each other, pile up in subcutaneous knots, and no-one can respond to that. My gelded town sucks its own reflection from the nightly news: this "hardened steel town" is reeling. A teacher drunk in a hotel room drunk with a student. The lessons come frozen ===== This is as useful as a doll.--Gertrude Stein Poem of the Day:http://www.lewislacook.com/POD/index.php associate editor, _sidereality http://www.sidereality.com/ -------- http://www.lewislacook.com/ tubulence artist studio: http://turbulence.org/studios/lacook/index.html __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 15:55:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetry Project Subject: Events at the Poetry Project 1/19-1/24 Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable The hippopotamus basks in the dark mud. Next week: * MONDAY, JANUARY 19=20 No Reading [Martin Luther King Day] =20 WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 21 Erica Hunt & Elizabeth Willis Erica Hunt=B9s books include Local History (Roof Books, 1993), Arcade (Kelsey St Press, 1996, with Alison Saar), and Piece Logic (Carolina Wren Press, 2002). She teaches experimental poetries at Long Island University and is the Executive Director of the Twenty-First Century Foundation, a national public foundation that awards grants to the African American community. Elizabeth Willis is the author of the book-length poem Second Law (Avenue B= , 1993), The Human Abstract (Penguin, 1995, selected for the National Poetry Series), and Turneresque, just out from Burning Deck. Her poems appear in new issues of Explosive, Open City, and Triquarterly. She teaches at Wesleyan University. [8:00 pm] * Again, ANNOUNCING SPRING 2004 WORKSHOPS: ON THE CITY =AD BRENDA COULTAS TUESDAYS AT 7 PM: 10 SESSIONS BEGIN FEBRUARY 17TH Coultas writes, =B3For this workshop our topic is the city. The class will survey poems and prose written on, in, or about cities and cityscapes, and develop investigative methods and other media as models. Students need to bring a copy of William Carlos Williams' Paterson to class.=B2 Brenda Coultas= =B9 books include A Handmade Museum, The Bowery Project, Early Films, and A Summer Newsreel. Her work has also appeared in Conjunctions, Fence, and The Poetry Project Newsletter. TO POETRY: A DEDICATION WORKSHOP =AD BRENDAN LORBER FRIDAYS AT 7 PM: 10 SESSIONS BEGIN FEBRUARY 20TH Lorber writes, =B3When you dedicate a poem you convert it to a gift, conscrip= t the poem into the service of something beyond yourself. This workshop will explore techniques and implications of writing for, to, about, after, with, even as other people; examine and experiment with such connective forms as the ode, love poem, eulogy, elegy, epithalamion, encomium, canso, the dozens, poetry portrait, collaboration and non-poetry forms such as advertising, threatening letters, fan mail, and subpoenas. This is NOT a workshop in the poetry of sentimentality. To shove us in more interesting directions, we=B9ll draw from traditions including 7th century Arab and Persian poetics, European courtly love, Beat, NY School, Language and some contemporary poets you might run into on the subway.=B2 Brendan Lorber is the editor of LUNGFULL! magazine and author of The Address Book and DASH. POETRY FOR THE PAGE, STAGE, & COMPUTER SCREEN =AD TOM SAVAGE SATURDAYS AT 12 PM: 10 SESSIONS BEGIN FEBRUARY 21ST Savage writes, =B3This workshop will present readings, inspirations, and influences from the past fifty years of American poetry in the Beat, New York School, Language, Spoken Word, and Digital =B3traditions=B2 as they have made themselves manifest. Poets whose work seems important in this regard include Ginsberg, Berrigan, O'Hara, Ashbery, Levertov, Duncan, Mac Low, Koch, Surrealist Plays, Olson, Creeley, Kushner, Torres, Elmslie, Notley, Mayer, Cage, Szymborska, Neruda and others.=B2 Tom Savage is the author of several volumes of poetry, including Brain Surgery Poems, Political Conditions/Physical States, and From Heart to Balkh and Back Again. The Fine Print: The workshop fee is $300, which includes a one year Individual Poetry Project membership and tuition for any and all spring classes, as well as tuition for next fall=B9s classes. Reservations (incl. name, address, phone and email) are required due to limited class space and payment must be received in advance. Please send payment and reservations to: The Poetry Project, St. Mark's Church, 131 E. 10 St., NY, NY 10003. For more information, please call (212) 674 0910, or e-mail: info@poetryproject.com. * The Poetry Project is located at St. Mark's Church-in-the-Bowery 131 East 10th Street at Second Avenue New York City 10003 Trains: 6, F, N, R, and L. info@poetryproject.com www.poetryproject.com Admission is $8, $7 for students/seniors and $5 for members (though now those who take out a membership at $85 or higher will get in free to all regular readings). We are wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. For more info call 212-674-0910. * ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 18:11:57 -0330 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Hehir Subject: Re: the sniping Democrats In-Reply-To: <1074186815.4006ca3fe3384@boogcity.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII no, they're Called (nudge, nudge) canadians On Thu, 15 Jan 2004, David A. Kirschenbaum wrote: > no, they're called canadians > > Quoting Kevin Hehir : > > > eh? I think their called Canadians eh. > > > > On Thu, 15 Jan 2004, George Bowering wrote: > > > > > > guns don't kill people. eh? > > > > > > > > > > > That's not funny. There are people who actually say that. > > > -- > > > George Bowering > > > There are minus degrees? > > > > > > 303 Fielden Ave. > > > Port Colborne. ON, > > > L3K 4T5 > > > > > > > -- > > > > > -- > David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher > Boog City > 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H > NY, NY 10001-4754 > T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) > F: (212) 842-2429 > www.boogcity.com > -- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 16:53:14 -0500 Reply-To: olsonjk@delhi.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kirby Olson Organization: SUNY Delhi Subject: Re: class, the muted variable MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Again, simply saying that an idea has been advanced by the right, and therefore is no good is an example of an ad hominem attack. The right can also have good ideas. Simply to want to wipe out the entire right is wrong. Again, this is an example of what has happened to the left. Only certain viewpoints could possibly have any intelligence, and therefore we will only listen to ourselves. For thirty years the left hasn't had a single new idea, and I'm bored brainless listening to them. I don't listen to talk radio or to O'Reilly and haven't read Anne Coulter. I read Lutheran and Catholic mainstream journals and you get many of these same ideas. It's just that the mainstream media is almost completely secularized at this point. O'Reilly is saying what millions of Catholics are thinking. They've been driven out of the mainstream discourse, and have for a very long time. In a list like this, nobody is even aware of the prevalence of other opinions. So much for diversity. Even if many Democratic presidents did work against official communism, at this point the Democratic party doesn't have any other source of ideas. When Carol Moseley Brown turned her votes over to Howard the Duck this afternoon she said "race and gender" in her speech at least a dozen times. Not once was class mentioned. I find it amusing that this variable is so often held in abeyance. It's one of the only interesting things that I see happening on the left. I've always been on the left, but now just find myself bored and annoyed by the incredible shrinkage. Two static variables, neither of which indicates moral choice, but which are givens. I think they tell you nothing about anything. If I knew what a person's relationship to the religion in which they grew up was -- this would tell me more because it would indicate a moral choice. As Aristotle put it in the Poetics -- we can only understand a person's character through their moral choices. Race and gender are not moral choices. They're just static variables and in and of themselves are unintelligible. Neither one is predictive of much of anything. What does Paris Hilton have to do with Tammy Fae? What does Tim Duncan (basketball player) have to do with Dennis Rodman. Think about the arc that a person makes in time through moral choices. These are active, not static. Really, let's try to function, please. -- Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 17:37:05 -0500 Reply-To: olsonjk@delhi.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kirby Olson Organization: SUNY Delhi Subject: Re: Charles Olson & Unitarianism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Here's the lines I wanted to discuss in Olson's poem. They are on p. 9 of the Maximus Poems, or section I.5: 1 the light, there, at the corner (because of the big elm and the reflecting houses) winter or summer stays as it was when they lived there, in the house the street cuts off as though it was a fault, the side's so sheer they hid, or tried to hide, the fact the cargo their ships brought back was black (the Library, too, possibly so founded). The point is the light does go one way toward the post office, and quite another way down to Main Street. Nor is that all: coming from the sea, up Middle, it is more white, very white as it passes the grey of the Unitarian church. But at Pleasant St. it is abruptly black (hidden city Ok, now here's the factual part which I looked up since nobody responded. In 1805 Henry War was appointed Unitarian professor of divinity at Harvard. This led to tremendous splits in congregations all over the Northeast. Harvard remains largely Unitarian for a great long while after this. And this is the very center of Olson's poem. Olson was discriminated against and so he has a burr in his flesh. And throughout the poem he's making hits at Unitarian, and against Universalism (a branch of Unitarianism). Unitarians, unlike most Christians, do not believe that Christ was God, but only a man. On p. 381, Olson says, "God is fully physical." And on page 442, a poem in its entirety: "I believe in religion not magic or science I believe in society as religious both man & society as religious" And finally on p. 379 -- "I hate universalization." There are many many more bits of data, but I cite three that seem to indicate a hint in that direction. I think the thematic center of the poem is his discussion of various denominations, of which Unitarian is probably the key. I hadn't thought of this until Anselm Hollo brought up the idea that denominations shouldn't matter, but they do in some kind of useless way in American history. So I thought about this line, and then this poem seemed to partially open. Unitarians are probably the most liberal congregation of the Christian rainbow. There is almost nothing that you have to believe in to be a Unitarian. And somehow (pronoun antecedents are difficult to grasp often in Olson's poem) he's saying that the Unitarian church is responsible for the slavery in the first lines of the poem, or somehow connected to it. There is also the Massachusetts Bay Colony (mucho slavery in its heyday, as the Butterick notes comment). Thanks to back channel contributions, especially Dale Smith's. The front channel just seems to all be bad argument -- straw man arguments -- which is to take the weakest part of my argument, or to summarize it badly (I didn't bring up FDR). What you are supposed to do in an argument is to take on the best part of my post. You take on the best points, and either engulf and devour, or else you expand on them, and contribute something. You don't get sidetracked about commissars and personal things. I'm not interested in anybody on this list. I'm only interested in ideas. I haven't seen many, and would like to stir some up by scraping together whatever sticks I can to start a fire. Personally, I'm embarrassed at the state of American poetic discussion, and find this list to be simply representative of a general degradation into a sort of Alzheimers in which people rant and rave about race and gender as if they mean something. Only Tim Peterson contributed by looking at the race, class, gender issue as an outgrowth of Marxist category of class. And Maria had the beginning of Harvard. But there's still so much more to the story, here. Try to stay on track. We're having a discussion here, and if you want to contribute, do so fairly. Reread your freshman composition book if you need to, ok? Try to remember the main faults -- ad hominem means you can't dismiss an idea because of its affiliations, straw man means you should summarize an argument fairly. Well, that's enough of a lesson for today. There is another interesting bit of data -- THE FIRST UNITARIAN church in America is precisely THIS ONE in Gloucester. It was at 86 Middle St., but when Butterick wrote his notes it was already Temple Ahavoth Achim. Is it still that? Was this branch of Unitarianism pro-slavery, or did it look the other way? Generally, the Unitarians are thought to be abolitionists, but I think Olson is saying that they were not -- that the slave pens found in the basement were actually their own? In the pronoun "their" in the line that ends "their ships" -- whose ships were they? If they were the Massachusetts Bay Colony's, then how is the Unitarian church implicated in it? I'm sorry to talk about poetry, but I thought that this is what this list was originally about. Backchannel contributions from people who don't want to bother with the others on the board remain welcome. Maybe I could start a discussion again about the poem if some wanted to actually talk about it, and not get sidetracked. Anybody who actually wants to do this could backchannel me, and maybe we could start a separate discussion by private email? -- Kirby Maria Damon wrote: > uh...just for starters, kirby, harvard was founded in 1636, before > there was such a thing as unitarianism. however, prejudice against > catholics was v widespread throughout the protestant world --still > is. i've heard some hair-raising anti-catholic zingers from my > lutheran friends in mn. > -- Lutherans have a long history of rather dumb arguments with Catholics. They can dish it back, believe me. They like to get into Luther as a sexual beast who left the church in order to get it on with his later wife, etc. OR they talk about how Luther had emotional problems. Anything but dealing with the financial abuses of their church at that time. But it's just for fun, mostly, now. We are actually very very close to Catholics. We are probably closer to them than any other Protestant denomination. We have signed a pact of mutual understanding. Personally, I really like Catholics, but I enjoy teasing them sometimes, and being teased by them. But all that's a side issue. When does Unitarianism start? My understanding was that it came out of the Socinian heresy whch started in the 1500s. The Cavalier poet John Suckling wrote a treatise in defense of the Socinians in the 1630s, so it would have been important at precisely the time that Harvard was being founded. That's another issue -- not only who did found Harvard, but what did they later become? Obviously, like almost all American universities at the time, they were originally set up to create ministers. What faith were Harvard's ministers? I could look this up, but I am happy to delegate! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 17:40:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: the sniping Democrats / fear of language? In-Reply-To: <17d.2571deb2.2d38503f@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > > > as a poet, i feel that one of my jobs is to make >> > the fear of language an obsolete fear. >>Permission to quote, sir? >>Gwyn McVay >------- >George Bowering wrote: > >>As a poet, I would be very disappointed to see that happen. The fear >>of language replaced the fear of God, as recommended by my church >>when I was a kid in a church. To see language robbed of its power and >>the respect due it would be very sad indeed. > >to George and the others who agree, >so you see value in a fear of language? Yes, something like supreme value. >okay, maybe you are seeing something >that i haven't seen, so please delve deeper >into why you believe this. i for one would >appreciate reading why you believe this. The language is much larger, much older and much stronger than I will ever be. That is a reason for profound respect. If it lets me talk about a recipe for beef stew, I am thankful. If it lets me venture into the kind of experience that poetry is for, my eyes are wide open like those of a kid who has just seen a ghost. In fact, when you consider where Yeats, Shelley, Blake, Rilke, Duncan and Blaser say that their poetry comes from, one would be a fool not to be scared. >but meanwhile, here's how i see it: >the fear of language is an extension of >the other constructs of our culture which >are based on fear. >not having enough money >not being beautiful >not being loved That is not fear. That is anxiety or resentment or sorrow. If a bill-collector comes to see me I will be fretful and anxious. If a poetry angel or ghost offering or demanding poetry, a chill goes up or probably down my spine. >the list is endless, but fear of language >has always seemed to me (depending >on which words of course and/or the >topic of conversation, or poem) to plug >into any number of other fears of how >one should act or what one feels of >one's worth. It seems to me that you are talking about little private personal individual problems here. That is a long way from the serious way in which a poet takes language. >so i do not see the value in continuing the >maintenance of fear of language. as a poet i want >to be fearless with words, and by example show >others that it's okay, that your hair really won't >burst into flames, or that God doesn't strike >you down. Poetry is a reminder that those things will happen. > >if respecting language in your terms means >to keep the power Any poet who thinks that HE/SHE has that power is a dope. > (the fear) maintained, than >i will not respect language in the same way, >and it's as simple as that. my idea is that >the world is too beautiful to continue allowing >the abuse. I feel the way about language, perhaps, that you feel about the world. > language (as corny as this may >wind up sounding) can free us. it does not >have to pound us into submission. I am suspicious of claims that we will be freed. Irving Layton wrote that poetry is freedom. I am afraid (heh heh) that I disagree. As a poet I think (and here is where I, too, may be corny) I serve. -- George Bowering There are minus degrees? 303 Fielden Ave. Port Colborne. ON, L3K 4T5 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 15:13:32 -0800 Reply-To: Ishaq1823@telus.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ishaq Organization: Selah7 http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html Subject: Non-Calaca Submission Calls, LadyFest, Chusma Contest, Resistencia Workshop y =?iso-8859-1?Q?m=E1s?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit +++++ CalacaList +++++ ListaCalaca +++++ °CONTRA LA GUERRA! Calaca Press opposes the occupation of Iraq. As a service to the writers who are subscribed to the CalacaList we send out calls for submission from various publishers (as well as other writing and artistic opportunities). Calaca can not vouch for the legitimacy of any of the following (though we can vouch for Profe Mendoza, Chusma House and Resistencia). Please research before submitting work to guarantee their legitimacy. And always, always, retain the rights to your work. Also, please let us know if your work is accepted by any of the various publishers listed. Calaca +++ Yo hablo, yo soy. ?Y que!: New Perspectives from Latinas/os on their Dynamic Language Experiences Latinas/os are often presented in media, academic, and popular discourse in a traditional immigrant model that measures assimilation solely through language usage. We find this model to be lacking in terms of the complexities of language experiences that we ourselves have lived. To illustrate how Latina/o self-identification is inflected through a variety of language experiences, we are seeking submissions in a variety of genres for an anthology that focuses on the subject of "Latina/o Language Experiences." Such experiences may run the gamut from childhood stories, interactions between lovers, workplace relations or between family members, educational or religious experiences, interactions among Latinas/os, or with other cultural groups. We believe that the diversity of perspectives and voices offered will provide insight into the fluid dynamic of social, class, cultural, communal, and national identity formation and provide insight into how identity is formed, lost, maintai ned, or otherwise negotiated through language usage. This collection challenges the notion that there is a one-to-one correspondence between language practice and ethnic identity. Our observations tell us that people's relationships with language is dynamic, fluid, and circumstantial. *How, for instance, does language usage reflect cultural allegiance, ethnic "authenticity", community identification, and the politics of cultural inclusion and exclusion? *What are the political, economic (class), emotional, and spiritual dimensions of language? *How do we use language as a tool for community building and political solidarity? *How has language been used as a basis for division or exclusion? *How has language shaped and been shaped our attitudes and experiences about gender, sexuality or sexual identity? *How do our language choices, limitations, and capacities affirm as well as frustrate our relationships with others? *Has the "Latinoization" of the U.S. affected the mainstream's perception of linguistic practices and the homgenization of U.S. Latinas/os? *How are language experiences distinct among generations of Latinas/os? Submissions may include, but need not be limited to, topics as linguistic chauvinism, linguistic pride, linguistic deficiency or shame, and advantages of bi- or multi-lingualism. Historical perspectives might consider how our language practices functioned to enable or facilitate community survival and resistance. Submissions can be in any fiction or non-fiction style such as poetry or prose, short interview, short oral history written in essay format, or personal memoir. What we are looking to compile is a portrayal of the wide range of experiences that reflects the complexity of Latina/o language experiences and which, taken collectively, asserts meaning about the significance of language as a means of self-fashioning and self-identification. Submissions are due: January 15, 2004 Send entries electronically or mail to: For more information, contact: Louis Mendoza Department of English University of Texas, San Antonio 6900 N. Loop 1604 South San Antonio, TX 78249 +++ CALL TO ARTISTS: All Latina, Chicana, Indigena, and Native American artistas are invited to submit artwork for an exhibition entitled, "Xihuat: 1) Mujer 2) Creation." The exhibit debuts at La Raza Galeria Posada's new location in Sacramento, CA on Valentine's Day, Saturday, February 14, 2004, and runs through March 27, 2004. In July 2004, parts of the collection also will be exhibited at Hutchins Street Square's Thomas Theatre Gallery in Lodi, CA (sponsored by the Lodi Arts Commission The deadline for submission, is Monday, February 2, 2004.ÝÝ About the Exhibit This exhibition acknowledges the responsibility accorded women to preserve and promote our cultural traditions. Xihuat (pronounced SHE waht)Ý means "female creation" in the Aztec language of N·huatl (pronounced NAH waht l). N·huatl belongs to a large group of Indian languages which also include the languages spoken by tribes of western North America.Ý Mujer, the Spanish term for woman, Creation, in English, denote the translation of our Indigenous culture across borders and time. Eligibility The exhibition is open to all media and forms, representing the diverse talents of women, the various forms of expression, and their attentiveness in passing on treasured skills and traditions. The art does not have to be traditional, but should reflect your culture and heritage. The media can be textiles, altars, sculpture, paintings, photography, mix media and arts and crafts. Performance art, poetry, music, stories also will be considered for lectures and workshops to accompany the exhibition. For more information and an artist's application, please inquire via e-mail to: info@galeriaposada.org Or call, 916.446.5133. +++ LADYFEST TX NOW ACCEPTING SUBMISSIONS FOR BANDS, FILMS, ART, SPOKEN WORD, WORKSHOPS January 5, 2004 (AUSTIN, TX) Ò The non-profit, woman-centered arts and music festival Ladyfest Texas is now accepting submissions for music, film, art, spoken word and workshopsto be included in the 2004 festival.ÝInterested artists should visit the Ladyfest Texas website at http://www.ladyfesttx.org and download the submission form. The deadline is February 15th, 2004. The Ladyfest Texas mission is to provide a forum in which all members of the community can celebrate, showcase and encourage the artistic, organizational and political talents of women. This participatory festival will feature performances by bands, spoken word artists, authors, visual artists and filmmakers, as well as workshops and panel discussions. While the primary organizers of Ladyfest Texas are women, everyone is welcome and encouraged to attend and volunteer at this community festival. Last year, attendees came from all over Texas as well as from Missouri, Ohio and California and many other states to be a part of the four day celebration. The majority of the Ladyfest showcases sold out and workshops were filled to capacity; over 100 full festival passes were sold before the event online.ÝOverall, Ladyfest Texas estimates that attendees for all of the 2003 festival events totaled 650. Ladyfest Texas 2003 raised over $5000 for Genaustin and Casa Amiga.ÝLadyfest Texas has chosen GenAustin and The Lilith Fund as 2004 benefiaries.ÝProceeds from Ladyfest Texas will be split between these two valuable organizations.Ý Ladyfest Texas 2004 will take place May 27 - 30, 2004 at various creative spaces in Austin, TX, including The Alamo Drafthouse, Jo's Coffee, and the University of Texas campus. The venues will be in the centrally located areas of downtown Austin and the University of Texas. We are committed to making Ladyfest events accessible to all ages.ÝAll will be accessible via Capital Metro bus. Because Ladyfest Texas is a non-profit, volunteer-run festival, we need your support to make this groundbreaking, inspirational event happen. There are many ways to help, including joining a planning committee, submitting your work or performance, leading a workshop, making a tax-deductible donation, publicizing, giving in-kind support with business resources, goods & services for raffles, benefits, etc., and sponsoring a panel, workshop or event! Please visit our website for more information. www.ladyfesttx.org +++ BIENESTAR HUMAN SERVICES AND SOL (strength & orgullo latino) Ý CALL FOR ENTRIES: BIENESTAR is currently seeking Visual Artists, Writers, Spoken Word Poets, Performers and Community Involvement for PUES COnRAZON, a communtiy arts exhibit and reception celebrating Valentines Day and LOVE in a time of HIV and AIDS. ÝThis event is open to all comunidades. SubmissionsÝmay includeÝArt, Fotografia, Artesania, Poetry, Palabra and personal accounts of Love, Loved ones, or things we Love. The event is scheduled for Saturday February 14th, at Bienestar in East L.A. 5283 E. Beverly Boulevard, from 5pm-9pm. For more information, or to participate, please contact Ý Miguel Gonzales La Casa/East LA- (323) 727.7897 x154 Ivy Gutierrez @ Wilmington Center- (310) 518.3099 x104, Hollywood Center- (323) 660.9680. Ý DEADLINE: AllÝparticipationÝwill be confirmedÝby February 5th. E-mail Contact Information: mgonzales@bienestar.org igutierrez@bienestar.org www.bienestar.org +++ 2004 Chusma House Publications 1st Annual Short Story Contest This year's theme is: The Woman Chusma House Publications is currently seeking finest quality narratives for an anthology entitled "Holding Up the Sky." We seek non-fiction short stories written by women, currently living in the United States, of all ethnic backgrounds that reflect the every day challenges and obstacles presented by the societies in which they live. Topics may include stories of efforts to uphold your dignity, faith and/or individuality in the face of race and gender discrimination, responsibility of family, religious and/or cultural values conflicting with daily life and/or experiences in the work place. It is our goal to share, educate and celebrate the successes and struggles of women in the U.S. Contest: New and published writers welcome. Open to U.S. residents only, regardless of legal status. Stories must be related to this year's theme. Winners and special merit stories will be notified by June 31, 2004 and the final results will be posted here, on our website All winners and special merit stories will be included in our anthology to be available in stores by September 2004. The selected published writers will each receive two copies each of the published book. There will also be cash prizes: - one first place prize of $ 125.00 (U.S.) - one second place prize of $75.00 (U.S.) - one third place prize of $50.00 (U.S.). Entry Guidelines: To have your submission qualify for the top prize, all rules must be followed. Due to the number of entries expected; we will not be able to contact you of disqualifications. One story per entry All stories must be non-fiction (true stories only) All submissions must be in English Typed, double spaced, (12pt font preferred) Unpublished, original stories only (no previously published materials in any media, including electronic) No simultaneous submission No excerpts will be accepted Minimum 2 pages, maximum 6 pages Attached a cover to the front to each story. Cover must include the following information: name, address, email, phone #, title of story, and a short biography Electronic submissions not accepted ï No entries returned Optional: Include a #10 SASE (self-addressed stamped envelope or international reply coupons) for contest results. Results will also be posted on our website on July 1, 2004 Include a SASP (self-addressed stamped postcard or international reply coupons) for confirmation that weíve received your entry. Deadline: Postmark by March 31, 2004 Fee: The reading fee of each entry is $6 (U.S. Dollars). Entry fees are non-returnable Maximum of 5 entries per writer at $6 each Please send only check or money order (U.S. Dollars only) Make your payment to Chusma House Publications Special offer, send an additional $10 to receive one copy of the anthology when it's published Send your entries to: 2004 Short Story Contest c/o Chusma House Publications P.O. Box 467 San Jose, CA 95103 Formatting Your Biography: To assist you in writing a short bio consistent with our format, we suggest: Name City/State Major Awards Book/Chapbook titles Recent/Pending Publications Questions: If you have any further questions regarding the contest guidelines or subject matter, we can be contacted at chpubcontest@chusmahouse.com +++ Blackmedina Seeks Submissions Ý MISSION It is the mission of Blackmedina to host the images and expressions of highly talented writers and artists that are often denied a voice in mainstream commercial media. In persuit of this mission, Blackmedina will gather compelling literature, provoking graphic art and photography to feed the soul of our audience and reflect the faith, spirit and power of humanity. It is evident that as our condition evolves so do our expressions and perceived self-images. This is the manner in which we communicate our individual and collective state of being. This is the manner in which we create our identity. In sight of this, Blackmedina proves to be the first of a new breed. Our focus is to lend a sense of consciousness to our readers. In our success, we will create a union between artist and audience. A sacred space where honest expressions of the human condition are shared, encouraged and appreciated. CONTRIBUTE Writers, poets, photographers and artists, please share your voice and your vision. Send any submissions and/or query letters to: submissions@blackmedina.net +++ Poetry Writing Workshops at Resistencia Bookstore Poets on the Front Lines Who: Facilitator: Rajasvini Bhansali (bio below) and Guest Artists Women and people of colour are particularly encouraged and invited to join the workshop series. When: Participants will meet every OTHER Saturday from 11 a.m. to 3 p.m. from February 21, 2004 to April 17, 2004. Public Reading/Radio Broadcast and Celebration will be held on April 24, 2004 for participants to share their writing with the community. Where: All workshops and readings will be held at Resistencia Bookstore, 1801A South First Street Austin, TX 78704.Ý Phone: 512-416-8885. What to expect: In this series of workshops, we will write, read, listen, speak, and write some more. We will unpeel, unmask, unearth ourselves and fully reveal ourselves as excellent poets. We will engage in the scrutiny of published work by contemporary poets of colour to learn how best to craft imagination into words through the use of rhythm, poetic devices and truth-telling. We will write poems and receive and give constructive feedback on each other's work. We will be joined by visiting writers who will lead some of our sessions. This opportunity to work with different writers will enhance our experience and challenge us to work deeper. We will read our written work aloud and celebrate in our collective creation of new forms. We will explore the use of new media to share our poems. We will use our art and this process to build meaningful connections with each other and our communities. We will celebrate and respect our process and each other. How to sign up: To register, please email Rene at revolu@swbell.net with your name, phone number, email, and any need for childcare and/or special assistance by February 1, 2004. The maximum number of participants in the workshop series will be 12. Please plan to attend each of the 5 workshops in the series, especially the public reading and celebration. Rajasvini will contact all registered and wait-listed participants by February 7, 2004.Ý These workshops are free for all participants (see sponsorship information below About the sponsor: This workshop series is free of charge and open to the public thanks to generous sponsorship by FINDING VOICE PRODUCTIONS: A CREATIVE WRITING WORKSHOP AND PRODUCTION SERIES developed by Sharon Bridgforth and funded by the Funding Exchange/The Paul Robeson Fund for Independent Media. Beginning 1/29/04 the Finding Voice web audio program will be available at http://www.findingvoice.org and will broadcast once a month on 91.7 FM, (Austin, TX) KVRX Radio Caracol. Participants in the Poets On The Front Lines workshop series will present their work on April 24, 2004 at Resistencia Bookstore/this event will be open to the public and broadcasted on the Finding Voice Web Show. For information about Finding Voice contact: info@findingvoice.org. About the venue: Resistencia Bookstore strives to be an inclusive community space that particularly showcases the talents and published works of Latino/a, people of Colour, immigrant, incarcerated and working class artists. This workshop series and Resistencia Bookstore together strive to provide the space, training and opportunity for marginalized cultural producers in our community. About the facilitator: Poet and community organizer Rajasvini Bhansali grew up in India and has lived in the United States since 1993. She works with community technology initiatives that provide free public access to the Internet in Texas. She also teaches, writes, publishes, and edits poetry and creative non-fiction.Ý Most recently, her writing has appeared inÝOperation Defensive Shield: Witnesses to Israeli War Crimes (Pluto Press, London, 2003); Affirming Flame: Writing by Progressive Texas Poets in the Aftermath of September 11th (Evelyn Street Press, Austin, 2002) and Shades of Power (Institute of Multiracial Justice, Oakland, 2002). Recently, Rajasvini has read her work at Resistencia Bookstore's 20th Anniversary Celebration (2003) at Ruta Maya and at the William Joiner Center for the Study of War and Social Consequences in Boston, Massachusetts (2002). As a student teacher poet member of June Jordan?s Poetry for the People collective from 1993 to 1997, Rajasvini taught poetry workshops at t he University of California at Berkeley, Glide Memorial Church and at the Federal Prison for Women in Dublin,California. She is honored to work in collaboration with Sharon Bridgforth's Finding Voice Productions and Resistencia Bookstore to bring Poets on the Front Lines to our community in Austin. +++ -- ======================================== °Contra la Guerra! Calaca Press is opposed to the occupation of Iraq. ======================================== Calaca Press P.O. Box 620786, San Diego, Califas 92162 (619) 434-9036 phone/fax http://calacapress.com calacapress@cox.net ======================================== Red CalacArts Collective: http://redcalacartscollective.org Social Consciousness through Artistic Means ======================================== New from Calaca: La Calaca Review: A Calacanthology of bilingual writers ISBN 0-9660773-9-3 /Perfectbound / 152 pages Available from Calaca: For the Hard Ones/Para las Duras by tatiana de la tierra ISBN 0-9717035-2-3 /160 pgs / bilingual edition / perfectbound Apocalypse MaÒana by Guillermo GÛmez-PeÒa y Guillermo Galindo ISBN 0-9717035-1-5 / Audio CD ======================================== Calaca Press, the Red CalacArts Collective, and Casa del Libro presents: For the Hard Ones / Para las duras - A reading by tatiana de la tierra Saturday, January 10 - 7pm - FREE Casa del Libro - 1735 University Ave., SD, CA 92103 ======================================== Calaca Press is a member of the Raza Press Association http://razapressassociation.org and the Save Our Centro Coalition http://saveourcentro.org = c/s -- - ___ Stay Strong "Peace sells but who's buying?" Megadeth "This mathematical rhythmatical mechanism enhances my wisdom of Islam, keeps me calm from doing you harm, when I attack, it's Vietnam" --HellRazah "It's not too good to stay in a white man's country too long" Mutabartuka http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html http://awol.objector.org/artistprofiles/welfarepoets.html http://ilovepoetry.com/search.asp?keywords=braithwaite&orderBy=date http://www.dpgrecordz.com/fredwreck/ http://www.lowliferecords.co.uk/ http://loudandoffensive.com/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/THCO2 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 23:49:31 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Frank Sherlock Subject: Re: class, the muted variable Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Gee Kirby, is a lie advanced from the right used to cripple the cause of a decent wage, or the right to vote- is that one of those good ideas? That's what we're talking about. Or do you believe that Martin Luther King Jr. was a Kremlin agent? We are not talking about ideas. We are talking about lies. Let me say it again. Lies. I don't call them good ideas. I've seen/heard O'Reilly many times, & I'm aware of the arguments. The problem with yours is that it's factually incorrect. And check your own diversity, friend. There are millions of Catholics in this country (Mexican, Central American, Carribean) who aren't in tune with O'Reilly. (e.g.- his anti-immigrant rants.) Or don't they count? I'm sure you wouldn't willingly exclude them. You probably just never considered them in the first place, right? Which is why race & gender NEED to be addressed in the political arena. It's a shame you've gotten bored before the message got through. You're admittedly "bored brainless." Who's active? Who's static? Frank Sherlock >From: Kirby Olson >Reply-To: olsonjk@delhi.edu >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: class, the muted variable >Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 16:53:14 -0500 > >Again, simply saying that an idea has been advanced by the right, and >therefore >is no good is an example of an ad hominem attack. The right can also have >good >ideas. > >Simply to want to wipe out the entire right is wrong. Again, this is an >example >of what has happened to the left. Only certain viewpoints could possibly >have >any intelligence, and therefore we will only listen to ourselves. For >thirty >years the left hasn't had a single new idea, and I'm bored brainless >listening >to them. > >I don't listen to talk radio or to O'Reilly and haven't read Anne Coulter. >I >read Lutheran and Catholic mainstream journals and you get many of these >same >ideas. It's just that the mainstream media is almost completely >secularized at >this point. O'Reilly is saying what millions of Catholics are thinking. >They've been driven out of the mainstream discourse, and have for a very >long >time. > >In a list like this, nobody is even aware of the prevalence of other >opinions. >So much for diversity. > >Even if many Democratic presidents did work against official communism, at >this >point the Democratic party doesn't have any other source of ideas. When >Carol >Moseley Brown turned her votes over to Howard the Duck this afternoon she >said >"race and gender" in her speech at least a dozen times. Not once was class >mentioned. I find it amusing that this variable is so often held in >abeyance. > >It's one of the only interesting things that I see happening on the left. >I've >always been on the left, but now just find myself bored and annoyed by the >incredible shrinkage. Two static variables, neither of which indicates >moral >choice, but which are givens. I think they tell you nothing about >anything. If >I knew what a person's relationship to the religion in which they grew up >was -- >this would tell me more because it would indicate a moral choice. As >Aristotle >put it in the Poetics -- we can only understand a person's character >through >their moral choices. Race and gender are not moral choices. They're just >static variables and in and of themselves are unintelligible. Neither one >is >predictive of much of anything. What does Paris Hilton have to do with >Tammy >Fae? What does Tim Duncan (basketball player) have to do with Dennis >Rodman. >Think about the arc that a person makes in time through moral choices. >These >are active, not static. Really, let's try to function, please. > >-- Kirby _________________________________________________________________ Learn how to choose, serve, and enjoy wine at Wine @ MSN. http://wine.msn.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 19:16:56 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ian Randall Wilson Subject: What do you think? A good use of 1.5 billion? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable January 14, 2004=20 Bush Plans $1.5 Billion Drive for Promotion of Poetry=20 By ROBERT ST. JOHN and DAVID LOWELL WASHINGTON, Jan. 13 =E2=80=94 Administration officials say they are planning= an=20 extensive election-year initiative to promote poetry, especially among low-i= ncome=20 poets, and they are weighing whether President Bush should promote the plan=20 next week in his State of the Union address.=20 For months, administration officials have worked with conservative groups on= =20 the proposal, which would provide at least $1.5 billion for training to help= =20 people develop interpersonal writing skills that sustain "healthy poetry."=20 The officials said they believed that the measure was especially timely=20 because they were facing pressure from conservatives eager to see the federa= l=20 government defend traditional poetry, after a decision by the highest court=20= in=20 Massachusetts. The court ruled in November that language poetry is legitimat= e=20 under the state's Constitution.=20 "This is a way for the president to address the concerns of conservatives an= d=20 to solidify his conservative base," a presidential adviser said.=20 Several conservative Christian advocacy groups are pressing Mr. Bush to go=20 further and use the State of the Union address to champion a constitutional=20 amendment prohibiting language poetry. Leaders of these groups said they wer= e=20 confused by what they saw as the administration's hedging and hesitation=20 concerning an amendment.=20 Administration officials said they did not know if Mr. Bush would mention th= e=20 amendment, but they expressed confidence that his poetry promotion plan woul= d=20 please conservatives.=20 Ronald T. Haskins, a Republican who has previously worked on Capitol Hill an= d=20 at the White House under Mr. Bush, said, "A lot of conservatives are very=20 pleased with the healthy poetry initiative. We need the world to make sense.= "=20 The proposal is the type of relatively inexpensive but politically potent=20 initiative that appeals to White House officials at a time when they are squ= eezed=20 by growing federal budget deficits.=20 It also plays to Mr. Bush's desire to be viewed as a "compassionate=20 conservative," an image he sought to cultivate in his 2000 campaign. This ye= ar,=20 administration officials said, Mr. Bush will probably visit programs trying=20= to raise=20 poetry awareness in poor neighborhoods.=20 "The president loves to do that sort of thing in the inner city with black=20 churches, and he's very good at it," a White House aide said.=20 In the last few years, some liberals have also expressed interest in=20 poetry-education programs. They say a growing body of statistical evidence s= uggests=20 that children fare best, financially and emotionally when exposed to poetry=20 early, in a two-poet family.=20 The president's proposal may not be enough, though, for some conservative=20 groups that are pushing for a more emphatic statement from him opposing lang= uage=20 poetry.=20 "We have a hard time understanding why the reserve," said Glenn T. Stanton,=20= a=20 policy analyst at Focus on the Family, a conservative Christian organization= .=20 "You see him inching in the right direction. But the question for us is, why= =20 this inching? Why not just get there? Rhyme is healthy!"=20 The Rev. Louis P. Sheldon, chairman of a national group called the=20 Traditional Poesy Coalition, has started an e-mail campaign urging Mr. Bush=20= to push for=20 an amendment opposing the legal recognition of language poetry. "The stuff=20 doesn't make any sense," Sheldon says, "and we have to get it out of our hom= es." Other groups, like the Southern Baptist Convention and Focus on the Family,=20 are pushing more quietly for the same thing, through contacts with White Hou= se=20 officials, especially Karl Rove, the president's chief political aide, who h= as=20 taken a personal interest in maintaining contacts with evangelical groups.=20 In an interview with ABC News last month, Mr. Bush was asked if he would=20 support a constitutional amendment against language poetry.=20 "If necessary," he said, "I will support a constitutional amendment which=20 would honor poetry as something that should rhyme and make sense, codify tha= t,=20 and will =E2=80=94 the position of this administration is that whatever poet= ry people=20 want to write, they're allowed to write, so long as it's traditional and=20 embraced by the state."=20 Asked to cite the circumstances in which a constitutional amendment might be= =20 needed, Trent Duffy, a White House spokesman, said on Tuesday, "That is a=20 decision the president has to make in due time."=20 The House of Representatives has approved a proposal to promote poetry as=20 part of a bill to reauthorize the 1996 communications law, but the bill is b= ogged=20 down in the Senate.=20 Without waiting for Congress to act, the administration has retained=20 consultants to help state and local government agencies, community organizat= ions and=20 religious groups develop poetry-promotion programs.=20 Wade F. Horn, the assistant secretary of health and human services, said:=20 "Poetry programs do work. On average, children raised by two poets hearing=20 healthy, stable traditional forms enjoy better physical and mental health an= d are=20 less likely to be poor."=20 Prof. Linda J. Waite, a demographer and sociologist at the University of=20 Chicago, compiled an abundance of evidence to support such assertions in the= book=20 "The Case for Poetry" (Tripleday, 2000). Ms. Waite, a former president of th= e=20 Population Poetry Association of America, said she was a liberal Democrat, b= ut=20 not active in politics.=20 Some women's groups like the NOW Legal Defense and Education Fund oppose=20 government programs that promote traditional poetry. "Such programs intrude=20= on=20 personal privacy, and may coerce women to write in ways they don't want to=20 write," said Timothy J. Casey, a lawyer at the fund.=20 Administration officials said their goal was "healthy poetry," not poetry fo= r=20 its own sake.=20 "We know this is a sensitive area," Dr. Horn said. "We don't want to come in= =20 with a heavy hand. All services will be voluntary. We want to help poets,=20 especially low-income poets, manage their writing in healthy ways. We know h= ow to=20 teach problem-solving, negotiation and listening skills. This initiative wil= l=20 not force anyone to write in any particular way. The last thing we'd want is= =20 to increase the rate of writer's block."=20 Under the president's proposal, federal money could be used for specific=20 activities like advertising campaigns to publicize the value of poetry,=20 instruction in poetry skills and mentoring programs that use traditional poe= ts role=20 models.=20 Federal officials said they favored education programs that focus on high=20 school students; young adults interested in poetry; and poets who marry when= =20 writers are thought to have the greatest commitment to their art.=20 Alan M. Hershey, a senior fellow at Mathematica Policy Research in Princeton= ,=20 N.J., said his company had a $19.8 million federal contract to measure the=20 effectiveness of such programs. Already, Mr. Hershey said, he is providing=20 technical assistance to poetry-education projects in Alabama, Florida, Georg= ia,=20 Indiana, Louisiana, New Mexico and Texas.=20 A major purpose, he said, is to help people "communicate about all the issue= s=20 you see in poems: money, sex, child-raising and other difficult issues that=20 come up."=20 Dr. Horn said that federal money for poetry promotion would be available onl= y=20 to traditional writers. As a federal official, he said, he is bound by a 199= 6=20 statute, the Defense of Poetry Act, which defined poetry for any program=20 established by Congress. The law states, "The word `poetry' means only a poe= m=20 which rhymes and makes sense."=20 But Dr. Horn said: "I don't have any problem with the government providing=20 support services to other kinds of poetry. If someone wants to write languag= e=20 poetry, okay, that's their choice."=20 Sheri E. Steisel, a policy analyst at the National Conference of State=20 Legislatures, said, "The Bush administration has raised this issue to the na= tional=20 level, but state legislators of both parties are interested in offering poet= ry=20 education to low-income poets."=20 # # # =20 =20 =20 =20 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 00:25:32 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joseph Bradshaw Subject: why Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed why right left and center why are discussions of politics crowding these static poles dead concepts does anybody on this list care about 'magic' or transcendance or did such things die when poetry died at death of poetry blog dot com and language lost its power of meaning and died then is this a pure nihilism so much bloat and pomp Dear Rodrigo Toscono, I truly thought you were dead. I am sorry. Love, Joseph and oppen? 'we have chosen the meaning / of being numerous' chosen i see nothing but fear here speaking and failing obsolute or absolete _________________________________________________________________ Check out the new MSN 9 Dial-up — fast & reliable Internet access with prime features! http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=dialup/home&ST=1 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 20:22:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Keri Thomas Subject: Re: What do you think? A good use of 1.5 billion? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed First of all, what hell is "healthy poetry" exactly? Is it something that compels emotions from both the author and reader or is it something that would be printed on a coffee mug or calendar? Having read Bush's poetry, I'm inclined to think the latter. Any poet who reads this article ought to be outraged. The chilling effect these measures could have on our art is staggering. What would this amendment allow or, for that matter, take away? Will federal funds be taken away from writing programs that don't fit the mold? Will schools lose funding if they don't teach a certain lesson plan? The only thing you can hope for if this measure passes is that the backlash creates a more subversive poetry culture. >From: Ian Randall Wilson >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: What do you think? A good use of 1.5 billion? >Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 19:16:56 EST > >January 14, 2004 >Bush Plans $1.5 Billion Drive for Promotion of Poetry >By ROBERT ST. JOHN and DAVID LOWELL > >WASHINGTON, Jan. 13 — Administration officials say they are planning an >extensive election-year initiative to promote poetry, especially among >low-income >poets, and they are weighing whether President Bush should promote the plan >next week in his State of the Union address. > >For months, administration officials have worked with conservative groups >on >the proposal, which would provide at least $1.5 billion for training to >help >people develop interpersonal writing skills that sustain "healthy poetry." > >The officials said they believed that the measure was especially timely >because they were facing pressure from conservatives eager to see the >federal >government defend traditional poetry, after a decision by the highest court >in >Massachusetts. The court ruled in November that language poetry is >legitimate >under the state's Constitution. > >"This is a way for the president to address the concerns of conservatives >and >to solidify his conservative base," a presidential adviser said. > >Several conservative Christian advocacy groups are pressing Mr. Bush to go >further and use the State of the Union address to champion a constitutional >amendment prohibiting language poetry. Leaders of these groups said they >were >confused by what they saw as the administration's hedging and hesitation >concerning an amendment. > >Administration officials said they did not know if Mr. Bush would mention >the >amendment, but they expressed confidence that his poetry promotion plan >would >please conservatives. > >Ronald T. Haskins, a Republican who has previously worked on Capitol Hill >and >at the White House under Mr. Bush, said, "A lot of conservatives are very >pleased with the healthy poetry initiative. We need the world to make >sense." > >The proposal is the type of relatively inexpensive but politically potent >initiative that appeals to White House officials at a time when they are >squeezed >by growing federal budget deficits. > >It also plays to Mr. Bush's desire to be viewed as a "compassionate >conservative," an image he sought to cultivate in his 2000 campaign. This >year, >administration officials said, Mr. Bush will probably visit programs trying >to raise >poetry awareness in poor neighborhoods. > >"The president loves to do that sort of thing in the inner city with black >churches, and he's very good at it," a White House aide said. > >In the last few years, some liberals have also expressed interest in >poetry-education programs. They say a growing body of statistical evidence >suggests >that children fare best, financially and emotionally when exposed to poetry >early, in a two-poet family. > >The president's proposal may not be enough, though, for some conservative >groups that are pushing for a more emphatic statement from him opposing >language >poetry. > >"We have a hard time understanding why the reserve," said Glenn T. Stanton, >a >policy analyst at Focus on the Family, a conservative Christian >organization. >"You see him inching in the right direction. But the question for us is, >why >this inching? Why not just get there? Rhyme is healthy!" > >The Rev. Louis P. Sheldon, chairman of a national group called the >Traditional Poesy Coalition, has started an e-mail campaign urging Mr. Bush >to push for >an amendment opposing the legal recognition of language poetry. "The stuff >doesn't make any sense," Sheldon says, "and we have to get it out of our >homes." > >Other groups, like the Southern Baptist Convention and Focus on the Family, >are pushing more quietly for the same thing, through contacts with White >House >officials, especially Karl Rove, the president's chief political aide, who >has >taken a personal interest in maintaining contacts with evangelical groups. > >In an interview with ABC News last month, Mr. Bush was asked if he would >support a constitutional amendment against language poetry. > >"If necessary," he said, "I will support a constitutional amendment which >would honor poetry as something that should rhyme and make sense, codify >that, >and will — the position of this administration is that whatever poetry >people >want to write, they're allowed to write, so long as it's traditional and >embraced by the state." > >Asked to cite the circumstances in which a constitutional amendment might >be >needed, Trent Duffy, a White House spokesman, said on Tuesday, "That is a >decision the president has to make in due time." > >The House of Representatives has approved a proposal to promote poetry as >part of a bill to reauthorize the 1996 communications law, but the bill is >bogged >down in the Senate. > >Without waiting for Congress to act, the administration has retained >consultants to help state and local government agencies, community >organizations and >religious groups develop poetry-promotion programs. > >Wade F. Horn, the assistant secretary of health and human services, said: >"Poetry programs do work. On average, children raised by two poets hearing >healthy, stable traditional forms enjoy better physical and mental health >and are >less likely to be poor." > >Prof. Linda J. Waite, a demographer and sociologist at the University of >Chicago, compiled an abundance of evidence to support such assertions in >the book >"The Case for Poetry" (Tripleday, 2000). Ms. Waite, a former president of >the >Population Poetry Association of America, said she was a liberal Democrat, >but >not active in politics. > >Some women's groups like the NOW Legal Defense and Education Fund oppose >government programs that promote traditional poetry. "Such programs intrude >on >personal privacy, and may coerce women to write in ways they don't want to >write," said Timothy J. Casey, a lawyer at the fund. > >Administration officials said their goal was "healthy poetry," not poetry >for >its own sake. > >"We know this is a sensitive area," Dr. Horn said. "We don't want to come >in >with a heavy hand. All services will be voluntary. We want to help poets, >especially low-income poets, manage their writing in healthy ways. We know >how to >teach problem-solving, negotiation and listening skills. This initiative >will >not force anyone to write in any particular way. The last thing we'd want >is >to increase the rate of writer's block." > >Under the president's proposal, federal money could be used for specific >activities like advertising campaigns to publicize the value of poetry, >instruction in poetry skills and mentoring programs that use traditional >poets role >models. > >Federal officials said they favored education programs that focus on high >school students; young adults interested in poetry; and poets who marry >when >writers are thought to have the greatest commitment to their art. > >Alan M. Hershey, a senior fellow at Mathematica Policy Research in >Princeton, >N.J., said his company had a $19.8 million federal contract to measure the >effectiveness of such programs. Already, Mr. Hershey said, he is providing >technical assistance to poetry-education projects in Alabama, Florida, >Georgia, >Indiana, Louisiana, New Mexico and Texas. > >A major purpose, he said, is to help people "communicate about all the >issues >you see in poems: money, sex, child-raising and other difficult issues that >come up." > >Dr. Horn said that federal money for poetry promotion would be available >only >to traditional writers. As a federal official, he said, he is bound by a >1996 >statute, the Defense of Poetry Act, which defined poetry for any program >established by Congress. The law states, "The word `poetry' means only a >poem >which rhymes and makes sense." > >But Dr. Horn said: "I don't have any problem with the government providing >support services to other kinds of poetry. If someone wants to write >language >poetry, okay, that's their choice." > >Sheri E. Steisel, a policy analyst at the National Conference of State >Legislatures, said, "The Bush administration has raised this issue to the >national >level, but state legislators of both parties are interested in offering >poetry >education to low-income poets." > ># # # > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get a FREE online virus check for your PC here, from McAfee. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 01:18:37 -0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "david.bircumshaw" Subject: Re: class, the muted variable MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've been trying to follow this discussion with my customary bewilderment: if I get this right it is being said by some that concepts like class, race and gender are Marxian inventions? Now, for a start, my recollection is that he doesn't have much more than the attitudes of a typical Victorian on matters of race or gender, on class though he can be corrosively accurate. But with class, take a text like The Merry Wives of Windsor. Now whatever the elusive Shakespeare thought privately the message of the play is very clear: that prosperous middle-class members should be glad to see their daughters (and money) married to indigent aristocrats as this would enhance their status, just as the rude mechanicals in A Midsummer Night's Dream are portrayed as figures of fun in their artistic efforts because of what they socially are. One could throw off examples like this from British literature scatter-gun: Donne's concern that his 'man' i.e servant could enjoy as much from physical love as he could, Milton's comparison of Satan to being like a thief breaking into the home of 'some rich burger' etc etc. Now unless Marx had access to a time machine and secretly wrote Shakespeare, Milton, Donne, Old English literature, that of 5th century Athens, Classical Rome, ancient China etc it would be safe to presume that the concept of class predates Marx and is clearly operative in the literary inheritance, just as it remains in our societies, unless there has been something I don't know about and the houses of the Hamptons are now available on social security to the underclass or the homeless of Leicester are given rooms reserved for the dons in Cambridge. I don't think that has happened somehow. The questions that have been bubbling along about the relationships between 'freedom of speech' and leisure i.e. social status are interesting and in what way that relates to poetry. Best Dave David Bircumshaw Spectare's Web, A Chide's Alphabet & Painting Without Numbers http://www.chidesalphabet.org.uk ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 17:30:17 -0800 Reply-To: antrobin@clipper.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anthony Robinson Subject: Re: What do you think? A good use of 1.5 billion? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Um...I think you're supposed to laugh... T. --- Keri Thomas wrote: > First of all, what hell is "healthy poetry" exactly? > Is it something that > compels emotions from both the author and reader or > is it something that > would be printed on a coffee mug or calendar? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 20:51:44 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: tom bell Subject: Re: What do you think? A good use of 1.5 billion? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Keri Thomas" > First of all, what hell is "healthy poetry" exactly? Keri, I'd invite you to address the question head on by sending me something for my new column 'Write for the Health of It' coming in MAG http://www.muse-apprentice-guild.com/. It's ironic that this should be coming out at the same time I'm starting the column - I see myself as an anti-Hallmark poet. tom bell ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 21:09:00 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: tom bell Subject: Re: What do you think? A good use of 1.5 billion? Comments: cc: august highland MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Better yet, maybe I should sue as they've stolen my copyrighted (I think since I have used "Write for the Health of It (c)" Any thoughts on how I can sue welcomed. tom bell ----- Original Message ----- From: "tom bell" To: Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 8:51 PM Subject: Re: What do you think? A good use of 1.5 billion? > From: "Keri Thomas" > > > > First of all, what hell is "healthy poetry" exactly? > > Keri, I'd invite you to address the question head on by sending me something > for my new column 'Write for the Health of It' coming in MAG > http://www.muse-apprentice-guild.com/. It's ironic that this should be > coming out at the same time I'm starting the column - I see myself as an > anti-Hallmark poet. > > tom bell ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 21:24:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Analysis of Carson, Analysis of Lacan Tomato, with Original Texts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Analysis of Carson, Analysis of Lacan Tomato, with Original Texts Analysis of Carson This is an exciting tale of the Malay Peninsula and the Seven Seas. I have used the tale as a way of deconstructing Empire in the guise of Language. I have also played with History as you see, with Dylan Thomas for example, and Conrad / Carson for another. Carson has an 's' and Conrad a 'd' thus 'sd' or 'said' reflecting on the telling of this tale which is also a Tale of Origin. Am I not the pale White? Am I not lost, as my words are lost, in the Fires of the World? This is about the Fires of the World, and the sounds or Music, which is that of the cycles of Creation and Destruction. Analysis of Lacan Tomato One would not associate 'Lacan' and 'Tomato' but a forced enclosure will necessarily generate narrative. Due to the prevalence of the Net and distributed intelligence, the narrative may easily be constructed through the use of a search engine and minor subsequent modifications of the results. Without head or tail, the residue of the investigation does indicate, as all, even false, investigations do, a relationship between these terms and any others. Given that, the presence of protocol sentences, or even 'true' and 'false' data, is submerged within the maelstrom of information. Relation Thus the relation between the Fires of the World and the maelstrom of information, the disappearance of statement and the Empire of language, becomes clear. Every text presupposes every other in my work, every text is transformed by every other. The result is resonance, not entity. And every text is fundamental, operative within the same sememe, producing the same peripheral results. This work is the dance of theory. Real-Life The coffee-pot just broke. We just returned from an excellent reading in zero-degree weather. Currently reading Ko Won, Buddhist Elements in Dada. The air purifier is working. The medication for hypothyroid is working. Our music tonight (trumpet, guitar) was tired and meandering. Can you photograph a slide with flash? A cathedral? The nighttime sky? The sun? - Yes to all of these. Carson She's exhausted; the cold cuts through her. The mast is covered in ice. The boat is going under. Lacan Tomato The imaginary splits. The Real splits. The linguistic shifted shifts uncomfortably. Anamorphic readings bend truth, don't get rid of it. The slant truth meets the slanted mass. Ten below zero. The dance of theory. Carson the heart of darkness in the jungle, the menace of men and animals, fires burning in the night, typhoon, soft trade-winds bringing men and women, ships that sail the sea, to their senses, to their destination, to the sun and the level ocean, to the moon and the level sky -:aye, this evil haunting us forever, the good Lord notwithstanding, Uma the native girl, Fiona the long-lost love disappeared far before the tale begins, Jim at the helm, Jim with the engines, Jim with the Beaufort scale over the top - you just had to look into his eyes, they were those of someone hunted far worse by himself than ever an enemy would bring to the fore - their eyes reflecting his, these pilgrims held to the ground by their stern belief, the captain grappling with the first mate, first mate with the engineer, stay out of it, there's the lush beauty of the islands, the dark beauty of the girl -:my old friend. he's always infuriated with Dylan Thomas and that line of his, as if Dylan hadn't done anything else in his bloody life. but he's got a chance to read it again, the outcast native girl, the missionaries, the dim view of humankind in general, more and more betrayal, another drink for the old man, penny for the old guy. his Lord Jim's the meandering of a soul with division inherent among the races, ratings, and that pain of his, a coward against those of Islam who tend beneath steel-grey skies - who tend, I say to my old friend, as if there's yet another mindless sea-captain, fat or thin or tall, who can tell? -:aye, the natives and their fearsome beliefs:aye, the voices breathing down our necks: aye, the voices chanting in the distance aye, the voices changing all about the fire, but where aye, the voices breathing down our necks aye, the natives and their fearsome beliefs aye, the whites and their pale skins and paler morals aye, the voices breathing down our necks:through my the heart of darkness in the jungle, the menace of men and animals, fires burning in the night, typhoon, soft trade-winds bringing men and women, ships that sail the sea, to their senses, to their destination, to the sun and the level ocean, to the moon and the level sky -! Lacan Tomato Fabrice Roger-Lacan. true Ecco Spirit White-Delphin - Ecco - Womens Ecco Spirit White-Tomato - Ecco - Womens eBooks - Passion in Theory: Conceptions of Freud and Lacan Adult Costumes true p 40k So now I have 24 tomato plants all told, which considering that I have never had posted by Deirdre @ 12:04 PM. I think the reason the ideas of Lacan and Freud true hive.html 26k The ultimate irreducibility of noise is a founding element of Lacans address to his ... 1:54 AM Sarah Bunting of Tomato Nation writes about tech wars and the true tml 9k studies Psychology Title: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Lacan Author: Slavoj Zizek. Diane James Sun, Snow and RainDiane James Tomato, Lettuce an true 0915921.html 24k They had Aristotle, we had Jacques Lacan. They had Homer, we had Homer Simpson. ART AS A TOMATO: FRUIT OR VEGETABLE? KETCHUP OR SALSA? ... delay in the production of the plant hormone ethylene (Lacan and Bacou In tomato, inhibition of ethylene production by suppression of ACC synthase (Oeller et true Encyclopedia INFOSURR - Le surrealisme et ses alentours Jacques Lacan - lacan dot com zu Film,Theater und Fernsehsendungen SEQUENZ : berlin Tomato uk -flash ... pronoun references in Tomato clear 6 Of course, one of the meanings of word imaginary that Irigaray plays with is Jacques Lacans use of the term Rarely are pronoun references in Tomato clear 6 Of course, one of the meanings of word imaginary that Irigaray plays with is Jacques Lacans use of the term true End Lacan Tomato End Analysis ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 22:21:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Zimmerman Subject: Re: What do you think? A good use of 1.5 billion? MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT "How doth the little crocodile improve his shining tail?" (how doth ironic drollery defang itself in email?) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keri Thomas" To: Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 8:22 PM Subject: Re: What do you think? A good use of 1.5 billion? > First of all, what hell is "healthy poetry" exactly? Is it something that > compels emotions from both the author and reader or is it something that > would be printed on a coffee mug or calendar? Having read Bush's poetry, > I'm inclined to think the latter. > Any poet who reads this article ought to be outraged. The chilling effect > these measures could have on our art is staggering. What would this > amendment allow or, for that matter, take away? Will federal funds be taken > away from writing programs that don't fit the mold? Will schools lose > funding if they don't teach a certain lesson plan? > The only thing you can hope for if this measure passes is that the backlash > creates a more subversive poetry culture. > > > >From: Ian Randall Wilson > >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group > >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >Subject: What do you think? A good use of 1.5 billion? > >Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 19:16:56 EST > > > >January 14, 2004 > >Bush Plans $1.5 Billion Drive for Promotion of Poetry > >By ROBERT ST. JOHN and DAVID LOWELL > > > >WASHINGTON, Jan. 13 — Administration officials say they are planning an > >extensive election-year initiative to promote poetry, especially among > >low-income > >poets, and they are weighing whether President Bush should promote the plan > >next week in his State of the Union address. > > > >For months, administration officials have worked with conservative groups > >on > >the proposal, which would provide at least $1.5 billion for training to > >help > >people develop interpersonal writing skills that sustain "healthy poetry." > > > >The officials said they believed that the measure was especially timely > >because they were facing pressure from conservatives eager to see the > >federal > >government defend traditional poetry, after a decision by the highest court > >in > >Massachusetts. The court ruled in November that language poetry is > >legitimate > >under the state's Constitution. > > > >"This is a way for the president to address the concerns of conservatives > >and > >to solidify his conservative base," a presidential adviser said. > > > >Several conservative Christian advocacy groups are pressing Mr. Bush to go > >further and use the State of the Union address to champion a constitutional > >amendment prohibiting language poetry. Leaders of these groups said they > >were > >confused by what they saw as the administration's hedging and hesitation > >concerning an amendment. > > > >Administration officials said they did not know if Mr. Bush would mention > >the > >amendment, but they expressed confidence that his poetry promotion plan > >would > >please conservatives. > > > >Ronald T. Haskins, a Republican who has previously worked on Capitol Hill > >and > >at the White House under Mr. Bush, said, "A lot of conservatives are very > >pleased with the healthy poetry initiative. We need the world to make > >sense." > > > >The proposal is the type of relatively inexpensive but politically potent > >initiative that appeals to White House officials at a time when they are > >squeezed > >by growing federal budget deficits. > > > >It also plays to Mr. Bush's desire to be viewed as a "compassionate > >conservative," an image he sought to cultivate in his 2000 campaign. This > >year, > >administration officials said, Mr. Bush will probably visit programs trying > >to raise > >poetry awareness in poor neighborhoods. > > > >"The president loves to do that sort of thing in the inner city with black > >churches, and he's very good at it," a White House aide said. > > > >In the last few years, some liberals have also expressed interest in > >poetry-education programs. They say a growing body of statistical evidence > >suggests > >that children fare best, financially and emotionally when exposed to poetry > >early, in a two-poet family. > > > >The president's proposal may not be enough, though, for some conservative > >groups that are pushing for a more emphatic statement from him opposing > >language > >poetry. > > > >"We have a hard time understanding why the reserve," said Glenn T. Stanton, > >a > >policy analyst at Focus on the Family, a conservative Christian > >organization. > >"You see him inching in the right direction. But the question for us is, > >why > >this inching? Why not just get there? Rhyme is healthy!" > > > >The Rev. Louis P. Sheldon, chairman of a national group called the > >Traditional Poesy Coalition, has started an e-mail campaign urging Mr. Bush > >to push for > >an amendment opposing the legal recognition of language poetry. "The stuff > >doesn't make any sense," Sheldon says, "and we have to get it out of our > >homes." > > > >Other groups, like the Southern Baptist Convention and Focus on the Family, > >are pushing more quietly for the same thing, through contacts with White > >House > >officials, especially Karl Rove, the president's chief political aide, who > >has > >taken a personal interest in maintaining contacts with evangelical groups. > > > >In an interview with ABC News last month, Mr. Bush was asked if he would > >support a constitutional amendment against language poetry. > > > >"If necessary," he said, "I will support a constitutional amendment which > >would honor poetry as something that should rhyme and make sense, codify > >that, > >and will — the position of this administration is that whatever poetry > >people > >want to write, they're allowed to write, so long as it's traditional and > >embraced by the state." > > > >Asked to cite the circumstances in which a constitutional amendment might > >be > >needed, Trent Duffy, a White House spokesman, said on Tuesday, "That is a > >decision the president has to make in due time." > > > >The House of Representatives has approved a proposal to promote poetry as > >part of a bill to reauthorize the 1996 communications law, but the bill is > >bogged > >down in the Senate. > > > >Without waiting for Congress to act, the administration has retained > >consultants to help state and local government agencies, community > >organizations and > >religious groups develop poetry-promotion programs. > > > >Wade F. Horn, the assistant secretary of health and human services, said: > >"Poetry programs do work. On average, children raised by two poets hearing > >healthy, stable traditional forms enjoy better physical and mental health > >and are > >less likely to be poor." > > > >Prof. Linda J. Waite, a demographer and sociologist at the University of > >Chicago, compiled an abundance of evidence to support such assertions in > >the book > >"The Case for Poetry" (Tripleday, 2000). Ms. Waite, a former president of > >the > >Population Poetry Association of America, said she was a liberal Democrat, > >but > >not active in politics. > > > >Some women's groups like the NOW Legal Defense and Education Fund oppose > >government programs that promote traditional poetry. "Such programs intrude > >on > >personal privacy, and may coerce women to write in ways they don't want to > >write," said Timothy J. Casey, a lawyer at the fund. > > > >Administration officials said their goal was "healthy poetry," not poetry > >for > >its own sake. > > > >"We know this is a sensitive area," Dr. Horn said. "We don't want to come > >in > >with a heavy hand. All services will be voluntary. We want to help poets, > >especially low-income poets, manage their writing in healthy ways. We know > >how to > >teach problem-solving, negotiation and listening skills. This initiative > >will > >not force anyone to write in any particular way. The last thing we'd want > >is > >to increase the rate of writer's block." > > > >Under the president's proposal, federal money could be used for specific > >activities like advertising campaigns to publicize the value of poetry, > >instruction in poetry skills and mentoring programs that use traditional > >poets role > >models. > > > >Federal officials said they favored education programs that focus on high > >school students; young adults interested in poetry; and poets who marry > >when > >writers are thought to have the greatest commitment to their art. > > > >Alan M. Hershey, a senior fellow at Mathematica Policy Research in > >Princeton, > >N.J., said his company had a $19.8 million federal contract to measure the > >effectiveness of such programs. Already, Mr. Hershey said, he is providing > >technical assistance to poetry-education projects in Alabama, Florida, > >Georgia, > >Indiana, Louisiana, New Mexico and Texas. > > > >A major purpose, he said, is to help people "communicate about all the > >issues > >you see in poems: money, sex, child-raising and other difficult issues that > >come up." > > > >Dr. Horn said that federal money for poetry promotion would be available > >only > >to traditional writers. As a federal official, he said, he is bound by a > >1996 > >statute, the Defense of Poetry Act, which defined poetry for any program > >established by Congress. The law states, "The word `poetry' means only a > >poem > >which rhymes and makes sense." > > > >But Dr. Horn said: "I don't have any problem with the government providing > >support services to other kinds of poetry. If someone wants to write > >language > >poetry, okay, that's their choice." > > > >Sheri E. Steisel, a policy analyst at the National Conference of State > >Legislatures, said, "The Bush administration has raised this issue to the > >national > >level, but state legislators of both parties are interested in offering > >poetry > >education to low-income poets." > > > ># # # > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get a FREE online virus check for your PC here, from McAfee. > http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 23:17:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: hakka-hakku MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII hakka-hakku sleepy-time-k-17% brain-dead-k21% ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 22:34:29 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brent Bechtel Subject: Re: What do you think? A good use of 1.5 billion? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Haha, nice. I see you've been tinkering with the recent New York Times = article, "Bush Plans $1.5 Billion Drive for Promotion of Marriage." = (with strategic replacement of words, ahhh nice.) Sincerely, Brent ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Ian Randall Wilson" To: Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 6:16 PM Subject: What do you think? A good use of 1.5 billion? January 14, 2004=20 Bush Plans $1.5 Billion Drive for Promotion of Poetry=20 By ROBERT ST. JOHN and DAVID LOWELL ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 00:39:00 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Craig Allen Conrad Subject: Re: ................./ fear of language? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit George, thanks for your answers, but your respect for language is based on fear? i understand you have a deep respect for language. but respect doesn't have to be based on fear. what i have been trying to get at is that the fear of language is constricting. of course it's clear to me that you would NOT agree with me that language can free one if you follow the idea that fear is not something to remove. you say the way i feel about the world is how you feel about language. but you're wrong, in that i do not separate the world from language. and not because i want to see them this way, but because i believe they are inseparable. there's an amazing documentary i saw last year on cellular research. what scientists have discovered is that cells communicate all the time with one another. and when a cell is not getting communication, when it's ignored, it kills itself. the researchers actually used the word suicide, it's not me reading into what they were saying, they said it just like that. communication/language is the world and all we have to understand ourselves. whether that language be music, words, touch. without it we're dead. we are the macrocell structure. Tenderness and Beauty are what we'd want, i'm sure of it, if we had that and only that, and then were asked later to choose that, or fear. well we can choose something beyond fearing the words that we use with one another, and yes, respect those words, but respect them without the battleground which has been ripping us to shreds for thousands of years. CAConrad http://phillysound.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 00:45:58 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: What do you think? A good use of 1.5 billion? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 01/15/04 7:22:02 PM, IanRWilson05@AOL.COM writes: > In an interview with ABC News last month, Mr. Bush was asked if he would > support a constitutional amendment against language poetry. >=20 > "If necessary," he said, "I will support a constitutional amendment which > would honor poetry as something that should rhyme and make sense, codify=20 > that, > and will =E2=80=94 the position of this administration is that whatever po= etry=20 > people > want to write, they're allowed to write, so long as it's traditional and > embraced by the state." >=20 Is the above quote a joke or did Bush really say it? I have lost all bearing= =20 in the face of all this insanity. Murat ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 22:01:25 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Terrie Relf Subject: Re: What do you think? A good use of 1.5 billion? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The frightening thing is that I believe this is something he could have said...Didn't Barbara cancel her poetry to-do because "they" were afraid there would be poetry of protest? I don't think I'm alone in feeling/thinking, etc., that the US is fast becoming a fascist project. The election can't get here soon enough--if it's not too late...I know, I know...hasty generalization; however... Ter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Murat Nemet-Nejat" To: Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 9:45 PM Subject: Re: What do you think? A good use of 1.5 billion? In a message dated 01/15/04 7:22:02 PM, IanRWilson05@AOL.COM writes: > In an interview with ABC News last month, Mr. Bush was asked if he would > support a constitutional amendment against language poetry. > > "If necessary," he said, "I will support a constitutional amendment which > would honor poetry as something that should rhyme and make sense, codify > that, > and will — the position of this administration is that whatever poetry > people > want to write, they're allowed to write, so long as it's traditional and > embraced by the state." > Is the above quote a joke or did Bush really say it? I have lost all bearing in the face of all this insanity. Murat ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 22:23:52 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Larsen Subject: Specters of Marx In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ? I'm not quite seeing here how Marxism precludes magic and transcendence. Some might say it explains them. In any event you might try Antonin Artaud who has some remarkable things to say in this connection, and he's not dead either, Joseph LRSN At 12:25 AM 1/16/04 +0000, Joseph Bradshaw wrote: >why right left and center >why are discussions of politics crowding these static poles dead concepts >does anybody on this list care about 'magic' or transcendance or did such >things die when poetry died at death of poetry blog dot com and language >lost its power of meaning and died >then is this a pure nihilism >so much bloat and pomp > >Dear Rodrigo Toscono, >I truly thought you were dead. I am sorry. >Love, >Joseph > >and oppen? 'we have chosen the meaning / of being numerous' >chosen >i see nothing but fear here >speaking and failing >obsolute or absolete > >_________________________________________________________________ >Check out the new MSN 9 Dial-up =97 fast & reliable Internet access with= prime >features! http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=3Den-us&page=3Ddialup/home&ST=3D1 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 01:30:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Di MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Di heart of darkness in di jungle, di menace of sisters and animals, fires burning in di night, typhoon, soft trade-winds bringing sisters and sisters, ships that sail di sea, ta their senses, ta their destination, ta di sun and di level ocean, ta di moon and di level sky -:aye, dis ya evil haunting us forever, di bad lady notwithstanding, uma di native youth, fiona di tall-lost love disappeared far before di tale begins, jim at di helm, jim with di engines, jim with di beaufort scale over di top - I and I just had ta look into her eyes, I and I were those of smadi hunted far worse by himself an ever an enemy would bring ta di fore - their eyes reflecting her, these pilgrims held ta di ground by their stern belief, di captain grappling with di first mate, first mate with di engineer, stay out of it, deh's di lush beauty of di islands, di dark beauty of di youth -:my old friend. - modified by www.lazaruscorporation.co.uk _ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 01:55:10 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anselm Hollo Subject: Re: Rodrigo T & George B MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit GO, RODRIGO !!! GO, GEORGE !!! LET SANITY RING !!! Anselm Hollo ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 16:04:42 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ben Basan Subject: Re: Specters of Marx In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20040115215749.02e4bd80@socrates.berkeley.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 1/16/04 3:23 PM, "David Larsen" wrote: > ? I'm not quite seeing here how Marxism precludes > magic and transcendence. Some might say it > explains them. > In any event you might try Antonin Artaud who has > some remarkable things to say in this connection, > and he's not dead either, Joseph LRSN Shit to the spirit, that grinding shortage of existence! Artaud Lives! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 23:31:57 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: alexander saliby Subject: A Political Verse for Kirby Olson MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To Kirby Olson & his transgressions into LSD (Kirby, To LSD: Amicus Ave Atque Vale) Vowels I saw them rounded figures as Nubian breasts and buttocks tall in Finland shouting their flesh tones brown against the snows fierce red winds and blondes to calm=20 they called to me=20 in colors other than their own stoned I heard their hollowed groans moans as spirits spiraling in freight descending And oh, the pain of economic recognition mornings after voting... Alex ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 00:15:57 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Derek R Organization: derekrogerson.com Subject: 7 Dirty words MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Shit Piss Fuck Cunt Cocksucker Motherfucker Tits ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 08:17:58 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joseph Bradshaw Subject: Re: Spectators of [ ] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >? I'm not quite seeing here how Marxism precludes >magic and transcendence. Some might say it >explains them. nah. I wasn't making reference to marxism. I was commenting on the use of the terms 'right' 'left' and 'center' and how they are a hindrance to [ ] discussion They seem to fall so easily from political mouths, becoming meaningless [ ] I'm not quite seeing here how such "archaic" categorizations contribute to understanding [ ], or have any use in foregrounding [ ] acts. _________________________________________________________________ Check out the coupons and bargains on MSN Offers! http://shopping.msn.com/softcontent/softcontent.aspx?scmId=1418 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 08:22:45 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joseph Bradshaw Subject: Re: 7 Dirty words Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Yes Derek I do agree with that. > > >Shit Piss Fuck Cunt Cocksucker Motherfucker Tits > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Find high-speed ‘net deals — comparison-shop your local providers here. https://broadband.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 05:18:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: i want my p;ace in history MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII i want my p;ace in history ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 05:59:51 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: August Highland Subject: 5,000 New Works By August Highland! Comments: To: imitation poetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ******************************* 5,000 New Works By August Highland! On Sale Now! www.operation-nobel-prize.com ******************************* Vogue XXX Telepathy By Ian Mithell 1,000 Volumes 1,000 Pages Each Vertical Motion/Linear Velocity By Judith Matheson 1,000 Volumes 1,000 Pages Each Origami Guillotine By Ian Mitchell 1,000 Volumes 1,000 Pages Each Iraqui Rape Room WebCam By Judith Matheson 1,000 Volumes 1,000 Pages Each Disney Cruise Scandal By Ian Mitchell 1,000 Volumes 1,000 Pages Each ******************************* Each Volume comes in a custom-designed cabinet and is available in three wood types, three font faces, and three paper grades. Prices range between $350-$500 each. Operation Nobel Prize www.operation-nobel-prize.com Culture Animal www.cultureanimal.com ******************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 10:57:52 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rodrigo Toscano Subject: Ad Populem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Olson writes: =E2=80=9CAgain, simply saying that an idea has been advanced by the right, a= nd=20 therefore is no good is an example of an ad hominem attack. The right can also have=20 good ideas. =20 Simply to want to wipe out the entire right is wrong. Again, this is an=20 example of what has happened to the left. Only certain viewpoints could possibly ha= ve any intelligence, and therefore we will only listen to ourselves. For thirt= y years the left hasn't had a single new idea, and I'm bored brainless listeni= ng to them.=E2=80=9D=20 =20 *=20 Dear Bored Brainless,=20 =20 What ideas of the =E2=80=9Cleft=E2=80=9D have you believed in, fought for (s= trategized,=20 helped organized, culturally represented) in the last 30 years? What was the= =20 outcome? What were the problems? Concretely speaking.ie. The fight for Univ= ersal=20 Healthcare, what might be the problem there? A hegemony of interests pinned=20 against Universal Healthcare? Could it be corporate power? Could the Right=20 Propoganda Machine (so =E2=80=9Coppressed=E2=80=9D on this list, so clamped=20= in the jaws of =E2=80=9Cno=20 diversity=E2=80=9D [good rightest spin by the way! yes, the right does indee= d have =E2=80=9Cideas =E2=80=9D]), could that Right Machine have played a role in the scuttling of= such a=20 project? =20 =20 Bored Brainless, workers with no rights are looking for increased rights in=20 their ability to organize. What ideas does the Right have for them / us? =20= Let=20 us not oppress (for the moment) any =E2=80=9Cgood ideas=E2=80=9D from the ri= ght on this=20 matter. =20 List one bonified concrete =E2=80=9Cidea=E2=80=9D that the right has on thi= s matter.=20 =20 Mr. Moralia Ad Hominem In Exelcis Stunned-Noggins-By-The-Left, =20 =20 Who enjoys *hegemony* in the current political situation and overall climate= ?=20 The Right! The right engineers attacks on workers day in and day out,=20 effective attacks, life-damaging attacks. The right attacks the civil rights= gains of=20 African Americans (distorting history, i.e. with their neo-confederate=20 movement). The right attacks advances women have made, like their ability to= decide=20 the fate of their bodies, and their rights to non-demeaning work places. The= =20 right has made it a national hobby to attack gays and lesbians, to say nothi= ng=20 of transgender people. They don't =E2=80=9Cdebate=E2=80=9D-- they corral, l= augh, and go for=20 the kill. The right also misleads millions of people on international affair= s,=20 The War. =20 =20 The right dominates the airwaves. They dominate the TV networks.=20 =20 I can say, without compunction that I defend *the hegemony* of workers where= =20 they've built it--unions, associations (with all their problems; for example= I=20 don't let corporate strategists in my labor strategy meetings where I work= =E2=80=A6 should I in the interests of [your version of] =E2=80=9Cdiversity=E2=80=9D?)= . Maybe they have=20 some morality to lend us. I=E2=80=99m sure they do--something like "drop dea= d." =20 Without compunction do I defend the civil rights (and extension of civil=20 rights) wherever it has gained some *hegemony* =20 =20 Do you have some ideal-idea of 'balance' of =E2=80=98debate=E2=80=99 that sh= ould pertain to=20 this list? =20 My Wacked-Out Morality has it that this list is part and parcel of the world= =20 (of relations). What dogma!=20 =20 But intelligent "debate" is your concern? Let us guess=E2=80=A6the "reasona= ble man"=20 again=E2=80=94=E2=80=9Cwho hears all sides.=E2=80=9D That old universal (Bel= l Hooks: "he =20 everywhere" ).=20 =20 What can the "reasonable imagination" (TM) in fact=20 do...poetically, in 2004...let=E2=80=99s see it=E2=80=A6let us judge=E2=80= =A6and then DEBATE=E2=80=A6as to where to bust a=20 move... =20 Rodrigo Toscano=20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 11:10:45 -0500 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: Three for the Nasdaq Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit THREE FOR THE NASDAQ Giotto in Padua it was a job that filled a few years the userer's chapel a rich fuck with money up his ass & an eternity not to spend it blue eye blue sky blue sea 5 ten 15 twenty per cent of heaven the babe the boy the man the marked christ blue brushes wiped clean of blue air in the last judgement it all stinks another $$$ maker for the state bringing in X an hour for those who live proxiamate blue at least it wasn't the EURO of the jew Lognano/Sep/2003 Samsung 4th 24% handset markets local supply DRAM'S closing Wynward, Eng. microwave ovens PC monitors shifting Jobs Palau de Plegamans Catalonia Espana audio-visual prod. trans. Slovokia mobile phone China, Reuters... THE Merchant of Venice i feel sorry for the guy who stole the folio remaindered book of folk-sculpture & the two volumes (while i was busy pissing) German Arch. tome which i got gratis from Jaap, who went broke trying to sell 'em for a decade & which i've now lugged out for half as long may the thief's step be light his journey short good luck to seller of books no matter how he came upon them... Drn...NY..1/2004 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 11:39:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "James W. Cook" Subject: Re: Charles Olson & Unitarianism {Universalism} Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Kirby, I hope to get back to this thread later, but too many essays to grade at the moment. What follows might, however, help with the bit quoted below: >There is another interesting bit of data -- THE FIRST UNITARIAN church in >America >is precisely THIS ONE in Gloucester. It was at 86 Middle St., but when >Butterick >wrote his notes it was already Temple Ahavoth Achim. Is it still that? The church in question began as the first ***Universalist*** (not Unitarian) church in USAmerica (& perhaps the Americas but I am not certain). The church is still there, though it is now officially an "Independent Christian Church" but one clearly in the Unitarian-Universalist tradition. (I have attended services there on a few occasions. I have also given a reading and have seen a few of my students' punk bands perform in the church basement.) {The Temple is a few doors down as one heads toward Pleasant St. [see Olson's poem quoted below].} this from Judith Sargent Murray Society founder Bonnie Hurd Smith: "In 1774, one of [Universalist James] Relly's protegés, John Murray, who was then preaching in the New York and New Jersey areas, was invited by Winthrop Sargent to Gloucester. There, he discovered, "to my great astonishment, there were a few persons...in that remote place, upon whom the light of the gospel had more than dawned. The writings of Mr Relly were not only in their hands but in their hearts."2 And, in Gloucester, John Murray met Judith Stevens with whom he began a long and spiritual friendship. John Murray decided to make Gloucester his home, and the small group of "adherents" to the new faith met regularly in private homes. Judith was an active member. Eventually, they decided to build their own place of worship, and on Christmas Day of 1780 the first Universalist meeting house in America was dedicated in Gloucester. Judith Sargent Stevens [later Murray] signed the founding documents." {A look at Judith Sargent (Stevens) Murray might shed light on the feminism-as-Marxism discussion in another thread. But I am no expert.} Also, the first Universalist Church/Independent Christian Church described by Olson as grey had been painted white some time before I moved to Gloucester. Within the last few years the church has been renovated and repainted grey. Again, I would love to discuss the poem & hope to write more later (tonight?) (this weekend?) but for now this is all I can add. all the best, James > >Here's the lines I wanted to discuss in Olson's poem. They are on p. 9 of >the >Maximus Poems, or section I.5: > >1 > >the light, there, at the corner (because of the big elm >and the reflecting houses) winter or summer stays >as it was when they lived there, in the house the street cuts off >as though it was a fault, >the side's so sheer >they hid, or tried to hide, the fact the cargo their ships brought back >was black (the Library, too, possibly so founded). The point is >the light does go one way toward the post office, >and quite another way down to Main Street. Nor is that all: >coming from the sea, up Middle, it is more white, very white >as it passes the grey of the Unitarian church. But at Pleasant St. >it is abruptly >black >(hidden >city > >Ok, now here's the factual part which I looked up since nobody responded. >In 1805 >Henry War was appointed Unitarian professor of divinity at Harvard. This >led to >tremendous splits in congregations all over the Northeast. Harvard remains >largely >Unitarian for a great long while after this. And this is the very center >of >Olson's poem. Olson was discriminated against and so he has a burr in his >flesh. >And throughout the poem he's making hits at Unitarian, and against >Universalism (a >branch of Unitarianism). Unitarians, unlike most Christians, do not >believe that >Christ was God, but only a man. On p. 381, Olson says, "God is fully >physical." >And on page 442, a poem in its entirety: > >"I believe in religion not magic or science I believe in society >as religious both man & society as religious" > >And finally on p. 379 -- "I hate universalization." > >There are many many more bits of data, but I cite three that seem to >indicate a >hint in that direction. I think the thematic center of the poem is his >discussion >of various denominations, of which Unitarian is probably the key. I hadn't >thought >of this until Anselm Hollo brought up the idea that denominations shouldn't >matter, >but they do in some kind of useless way in American history. So I thought >about >this line, and then this poem seemed to partially open. > >Unitarians are probably the most liberal congregation of the Christian >rainbow. >There is almost nothing that you have to believe in to be a Unitarian. And >somehow >(pronoun antecedents are difficult to grasp often in Olson's poem) he's >saying that >the Unitarian church is responsible for the slavery in the first lines of >the poem, >or somehow connected to it. There is also the Massachusetts Bay Colony >(mucho >slavery in its heyday, as the Butterick notes comment). > >Thanks to back channel contributions, especially Dale Smith's. The front >channel >just seems to all be bad argument -- straw man arguments -- which is to >take the >weakest part of my argument, or to summarize it badly (I didn't bring up >FDR). >What you are supposed to do in an argument is to take on the best part of >my post. >You take on the best points, and either engulf and devour, or else you >expand on >them, and contribute something. You don't get sidetracked about commissars >and >personal things. I'm not interested in anybody on this list. I'm only >interested >in ideas. I haven't seen many, and would like to stir some up by scraping >together >whatever sticks I can to start a fire. Personally, I'm embarrassed at the >state of >American poetic discussion, and find this list to be simply representative >of a >general degradation into a sort of Alzheimers in which people rant and rave >about >race and gender as if they mean something. Only Tim Peterson contributed >by >looking at the race, class, gender issue as an outgrowth of Marxist >category of >class. And Maria had the beginning of Harvard. But there's still so much >more to >the story, here. Try to stay on track. We're having a discussion here, >and if you >want to contribute, do so fairly. Reread your freshman composition book if >you >need to, ok? Try to remember the main faults -- ad hominem means you can't >dismiss >an idea because of its affiliations, straw man means you should summarize >an >argument fairly. Well, that's enough of a lesson for today. > >There is another interesting bit of data -- THE FIRST UNITARIAN church in >America >is precisely THIS ONE in Gloucester. It was at 86 Middle St., but when >Butterick >wrote his notes it was already Temple Ahavoth Achim. Is it still that? > >Was this branch of Unitarianism pro-slavery, or did it look the other way? >Generally, the Unitarians are thought to be abolitionists, but I think >Olson is >saying that they were not -- that the slave pens found in the basement >were >actually their own? In the pronoun "their" in the line that ends "their >ships" -- >whose ships were they? If they were the Massachusetts Bay Colony's, then >how is >the Unitarian church implicated in it? > >I'm sorry to talk about poetry, but I thought that this is what this list >was >originally about. Backchannel contributions from people who don't want to >bother >with the others on the board remain welcome. Maybe I could start a >discussion >again about the poem if some wanted to actually talk about it, and not get >sidetracked. Anybody who actually wants to do this could backchannel me, >and maybe >we could start a separate discussion by private email? > >-- Kirby > >Maria Damon wrote: > > > uh...just for starters, kirby, harvard was founded in 1636, before > > there was such a thing as unitarianism. however, prejudice against > > catholics was v widespread throughout the protestant world --still > > is. i've heard some hair-raising anti-catholic zingers from my > > lutheran friends in mn. > > > >-- Lutherans have a long history of rather dumb arguments with Catholics. >They can >dish it back, believe me. They like to get into Luther as a sexual beast >who left >the church in order to get it on with his later wife, etc. OR they talk >about how >Luther had emotional problems. Anything but dealing with the financial >abuses of >their church at that time. But it's just for fun, mostly, now. We are >actually >very very close to Catholics. We are probably closer to them than any >other >Protestant denomination. We have signed a pact of mutual understanding. >Personally, I really like Catholics, but I enjoy teasing them sometimes, >and being >teased by them. But all that's a side issue. > >When does Unitarianism start? My understanding was that it came out of the >Socinian heresy whch started in the 1500s. The Cavalier poet John Suckling >wrote a >treatise in defense of the Socinians in the 1630s, so it would have been >important >at precisely the time that Harvard was being founded. That's another issue >-- not >only who did found Harvard, but what did they later become? Obviously, >like almost >all American universities at the time, they were originally set up to >create >ministers. What faith were Harvard's ministers? I could look this up, but >I am >happy to delegate! _________________________________________________________________ Check out the new MSN 9 Dial-up — fast & reliable Internet access with prime features! http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=dialup/home&ST=1 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 12:51:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: William Slaughter Subject: Notice: Mudlark MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII New and On View: Mudlark No. 24 (2004) Michael Ruby | First Names Michael Ruby is the author of AT AN INTERSECTION, published by Alef Books in New York at the end of 2002. His long poem "Wave Talk" was published early last year by syllogism in Berkeley, and another long poem, "Sic Fatur Lacrimans," appeared last summer in e-zine Poethia. Other poems are appearing in Lost & Found Times in Columbus, Ohio, and in e-zines xStream, Aught, BlazeVOX, Big Bridge and La Petite Zine. He recently completed a short trilogy in prose and poetry on varieties of unconscious experience: "Dreams of the 1990s," "Fleeting Memories" and "Inner Voices Heard Before Sleep." And he is working on two new books of poetry, AMERICAN SONGBOOK, based on phrases from songs throughout the 20th century, and CLOSE YOUR EYES, descriptions of darkness. He lives in Brooklyn and works as a journalist. * If you have a fast connection, you can hear Michael Ruby read FIRST NAMES from Aaron to Zoe (31 minutes) or Ursula to Zoe (2 minutes). Spread the word. Far and wide, William Slaughter _________________ MUDLARK An Electronic Journal of Poetry & Poetics Never in and never out of print... E-mail: mudlark@unf.edu URL: http://www.unf.edu/mudlark ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 10:00:44 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Corbett Subject: Re: Specters of Marx In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20040115215749.02e4bd80@socrates.berkeley.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 15 Jan 2004, David Larsen wrote: > ? I'm not quite seeing here how Marxism precludes > magic and transcendence. Some might say it > explains them. huh? as opiate of the people? 'course, magic and transcendence are just names for what humans do but don't usually know about themselves. rmc ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 10:34:33 -0800 Reply-To: undergroundhiphopplanet@yahoogroups.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ishaq Organization: Selah7 http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html Subject: Head-Roc at APOC Fundraiser this Sunday!!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit And They're Off!!! Back from accompanying Noyeek The Grizzly Bear from raiding camp grounds down the Queen City aka Charlotte NC, the Head-Roc Warmachine is gearing up for an especially intense set for the APOC's Mosh For The Movement, Rhymes For The Revolution Benefit Concert! The APOC are having their East Coast Convention this weekend and invite all to come out and learn for your self about their philosophy and goals! Once again, Head-Roc, Grizz, and DJ Eurok are thrust into the mix with Punk music in a combined assault of artistic audio expression! These shows generally tend to be high energy; so if you want you can skip your New Year's Resolution Monday morning workout - if you come to the show on Sunday night! Ok? Cool! Anarchist People of Color Benefit Concert Sunday January 18, 2004 at the Warehouse Theater (1017 7th St.- 7th St./ Mt. Vernon Sq. Metro- Green Line) Come see Ricanstruction, Head-roc, Avant God Violence, Shambala, Artemas, APOC Spoken word artists and many more as we rock to this Hip-Hop/ Punk fusion during the East Coast Regional Conference! Doors open at 9:00- Please Bring Valid ID $10 suggested donation for non-conference attendees (no one will be turned away) The Belly of the Beast APOC Collective needs you to give 'til it hurts.. STAY TUNED FOR MORE INFO ON THE LONG AWAITED, HIGHLY ANTICIPATED RELEASE OF HEAD-ROC'S "THE RETURN OF BLACK BROADWAY" FULL LENGTH LP!!!! http://WWW.HEAD-ROC.COM WE ARE BATTLE READY, ARE YOU?? -- - ___ Stay Strong "Peace sells but who's buying?" Megadeth "This mathematical rhythmatical mechanism enhances my wisdom of Islam, keeps me calm from doing you harm, when I attack, it's Vietnam" --HellRazah "It's not too good to stay in a white man's country too long" Mutabartuka http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html http://awol.objector.org/artistprofiles/welfarepoets.html http://ilovepoetry.com/search.asp?keywords=braithwaite&orderBy=date http://www.dpgrecordz.com/fredwreck/ http://www.lowliferecords.co.uk/ http://loudandoffensive.com/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/THCO2 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 12:39:26 -0800 Reply-To: Denise Enck Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Denise Enck Subject: Kay "Kaja" Johnson MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm looking for information on the poet/painter Kay Johnson, also known as "Kaja." If anyone has biographical information, photos, or has any idea of her current whereabouts, I'd be most appreciative. I've begun a webpage about Kay at http://emptymirrorbooks.com/kaja.html & will add more to it as I get more material. Also interested in an address or other contact information for Perdido Press in New Orleans. While doing a Worldcat search I found that they published, in 1998, something entitled "Kaja" by Kay Johnson, but I haven't been able to locate a copy or to find any additional information about it. Can anyone help me out? Thanks! cheers & gracias ~ Denise Empty Mirror Books & Distribution www.emptymirrorbooks.com modern poetry & photography, the Beat Generation, & the work of Michael McClure Denise Enck - Quanta Webdesign www.quantawebdesign.com websites for the arts, organizations & individuals Post Office Box 972, Mukilteo, WA 98275-0972 USA toll-free fax & message phone: 1-877-570-6448 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 19:59:34 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Hamilton-Emery Subject: Salt Publishing Update January 2004 Comments: To: info@saltpublishing.com Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit SALT PUBLISHING UPDATE -- JANUARY 2004 * New online bookstore * Updated home page * New international events calendar * New international literary news page Please visit our enhanced Web site to find out more about our new developments. Search our book series for the latest Salt titles, or find out what readings or performances are taking place each month by Salt authors and contributors, or check out the latest literary news and views from around the world. Salt now provides a space for the literary community and its international audience to stay in touch with the latest writing and publications, ideas and projects. The Saline news pages are open access and anyone can join the bulletin board and post queries and comments, as well as news of new titles and major events. If you wish you can now buy Salt titles online at our new bookstore, and take advantage of special offers and deals each month. Like 20% off highlight titles right now! NEW ONLINE BOOKSTORE http://www.saltpublishing.com/shop/index.php (All major credit cards are accepted via PayPal or WorldPay.) UPDATED HOME PAGE http://www.saltpublishing.com/index.htm NEW INTERNATIONAL EVENTS CALENDAR http://www.saltpublishing.com/events/index.php (Online calendar of readings and tours) NEW INTERNATIONAL LITERARY NEWS http://www.saltpublishing.com/saline/index. (Open access bulletin board.) If you wish to be removed from this alerting service please reply to this email with the word "remove" in the subject header. Best wishes for 2004 Chris _____________________________________________________ Chris Hamilton-Emery Editor Salt Publishing PO Box 937, Great Wilbraham PDO Cambridge, CB1 5JX, UK tel: +44 (0)1223 880929 (direct and voicemail) mobile: 07799 054889 email: cemery@saltpublishing.com web: http://www.saltpublishing.com ____________________________________________________ ** Geraldine Monk "Selected Poems" available now! ISBN 1876857692 ** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 15:41:04 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: Seventh Missive From Virginia Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed "there's not time to cook the cake..." and I'm a little worried Jeff, 'cause you see me as a dragon, it's one of my traumas, always the same story... I don't know why people think I'm a dragon, I'm not! but always people treat me like a dragon, why? yes Jeff, so many arrows over me, always... I don't bite Jeff, so why? it's incredible but it's like this: I say, for instance, "Gandhi day gone D-Day" and far from the reply "appear a peer up here" or even "a rose is arrows" is that face of "I hate you, dragon..." and this dragon is far from searching for war... far, Jeff! and I know people are waiting for me to pay with the same coin, but I hate this... I can kill, you know, if I want to, but it's not my style... so I prefer to query: "don't 1000 secret moral surfaces double between your echoes...?" it's useless... let's spend time in this: change of theme ( but what I wrote is true) I'm sad 'cause you see me as a dragon... change of theme, else then begins the same battle... poor of me, dragon... I'm a good pet after all, but... but?... yes, tons of "but watch out! I have fire..." _________________________________________________________________ There are now three new levels of MSN Hotmail Extra Storage! Learn more. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=hotmail/es2&ST=1 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 17:40:21 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chicago Review Subject: Fwd: Ron Silliman & Stacy Szymaszek Reading Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Chicago Poetry Project Presents: Ron Silliman & Stacy Szymaszek Saturday, January 24th at 1pm Harold Washington Library 400 S. State St. Chicago Authors Room, 7th floor ~~~ In sex, it is the women who are realists. Wrecker's jaws gobble bowling alley wall. Five is to three. =D6 Morning in the Mekong. Walking from the sun into shadow's temporary blindness, waiting for pupils, stuffed olives amid ice cubes, to grow big. Locomotive approaches detail. =D6 Impact of gravity on light causing linebreaks, sheep graze on a hillside, ignorant of their despair. - Ron Silliman, "Manifest" Two early works define Ron Silliman=EDs approach as a poet and theorist: Ketjak and The New Sentence. Both works also laid out the structure of his process and project over the last 25 years. Silliman's notorious essay, =ECThe New Sentence,=EE is an analysis of the prose poetry that some key Bay Area LANGUAGE writers, such as Watten, Harryman, and Grenier, were working on in the mid-70=EDs. Locating their work within 20th century ideas in linguistics and linguistically-oriented criticism, he argues that none of the available theories of language, literary or otherwise, can adequately capture what these writers were doing. Essentially, they had taken the reifying effects of poetry=F3its ability to make language tangible=F3into prose. In poetry, this is usually accomplished via line breaks, meter, and sonic devices. The new sentence, however, does this by abandoning reference and by employing a kind of negative discourse strategy that builds paragraphs out of tangentially related sentences. Silliman put this idea to work himself in Ketjak, a book that has spawned almost everything he has done since. He's drawn a large diagram for himself that outlines and connects everything he=EDs done (and plans to do). The diagram takes the form of a tree with Ketjak at its root. Probably the most important branch in the tree is The Alphabet, a work in progress with, as expected, 26 sections. The quotes above are from Manifest, the M. Not all of The Alphabet is written in prose but throughout Silliman employs the disjunctive strategies he identifies in The New Sentence. These days, Silliman is probably best known as author of "Silliman's Blog," a colossal undertaking of poetry journalism to write about experimental & "post-avant" (his favored term) poetry every day of the week, including weekends. As with his other creative projects, his aim in the Blog is ambitious & generous: to include the world of poetry as much as he can, & to describe it in the manner he best understands it. Silliman comes to Chicago, Poor Chicago, from the Philadelphia area, where he works in the computer & technology industry. * mummified arm Indonesian sailor skin boxed in glass and lead call it James arm is fine art: GOLDEN DRAGONS H O L D F A S T fingers to FULL RIGGED H.M.S. ROOSTER AND PIG can=EDt swim -Stacy Szymaszek, from "Some Mariners." One of the younger writers Ron Silliman has celebrated on his Blog on more than one occasion is Stacy Szymaszek. But the Chicago Poetry Project feels like it was down with Stacy even before she was cool on the Blog scene. Her work might be characterized as Objectivist interiority, but it just as easily could be understood as a lyrically interfering mythography. Reminiscent at times of the work of Niedecker, Fanny Howe, and even Olson, Stacy's work is marked primarily in its engagement with location, locale, and locus as they configure means of understanding life in the Upper Midwest. Author of several chapbooks and broadsides, including "Three Poems," "Survival," "Emptied of All Ships," and "Some Mariners," which is forthcoming from EtherDome, Stacy is also the editor of the journal "traverse," with Drew Kunz, and "gam," a journal devoted to writing from the Great Lakes region. She lives in Milwaukee, where she is the Literary Program Manager at Woodland Pattern Book Center - http://www.woodlandpattern.org/ - one of the greatest book stores, with the most admirable devotion to poetry, in the United States. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Chicago Poetry Project Box 642185 Chicago, IL 60664 www.chicagopoetryproject.org * * * * * * * * * CHICAGO REVIEW 5801 South Kenwood Avenue Chicago IL 60637 http://humanities.uchicago.edu/review/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 21:02:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Keri Thomas Subject: feeling pretty stupid Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I'd love to say I was being ironic with my post about the 1.5 billion, but I admit I thought it was real. I guess I wouldn't put anything past this administration at this point and could see something like this occuring. I'm going to my corner now to feel shame and cry. _________________________________________________________________ Check out the new MSN 9 Dial-up — fast & reliable Internet access with prime features! http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=dialup/home&ST=1 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 21:31:36 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: tom bell Subject: Re: feeling pretty stupid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As another I say it was a great poem! tom bell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keri Thomas" To: Sent: Friday, January 16, 2004 8:02 PM Subject: feeling pretty stupid > I'd love to say I was being ironic with my post about the 1.5 billion, but I > admit I thought it was real. I guess I wouldn't put anything past this > administration at this point and could see something like this occuring. > I'm going to my corner now to feel shame and cry. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Check out the new MSN 9 Dial-up - fast & reliable Internet access with prime > features! http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=dialup/home&ST=1 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 20:56:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Annie Finch Subject: Re: What do you think? A good use of 1.5 billion? In-Reply-To: <003f01c3dbdf$c77501f0$6d94c044@MULDER> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is a riot--, though I do feel the satire it is a bit weakened by=20 the joining at the hip of "rhyme" with "making sense," which reflects=20 more on the writer than it illuminates the sensibility being=20 satirized (dana gioia's new post notwithstanding). That automatic association of rhyme with the traditional sounds like=20 a carryover from the days of deep image school or something. In=20 fact, contemporary philistines are probably more likely to prefer=20 their pablum in unrhymed free verse. Rhyme can as easily be seen as the perfect companion of not making=20 sense. These unexamined assumptions need to be shaken out & tried on=20 once in a while to see if they still fit. Annie >RV.BUFFALO.EDU> >=20 > >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >=20 > >Subject: What do you think? A good use of 1.5 billion? >=20 > >Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 19:16:56 EST >=20 > > >=20 > >January 14, 2004 >=20 > >Bush Plans $1.5 Billion Drive for Promotion of Poetry >=20 > >By ROBERT ST. JOHN and DAVID LOWELL >=20 > > >=20 > >WASHINGTON, Jan. 13 =92=C4=EE Administration officials say they are= planning an >=20 > >extensive election-year initiative to promote poetry, especially amo= ng >=20 > >low-income >=20 > >poets, and they are weighing whether President Bush should promote t= he >plan >=20 > >next week in his State of the Union address. >=20 > > >=20 > >For months, administration officials have worked with conservative g= roups >=20 > >on >=20 > >the proposal, which would provide at least $1.5 billion for training= to >=20 > >help >=20 > >people develop interpersonal writing skills that sustain "healthy >poetry." >=20 > > >=20 > >The officials said they believed that the measure was especially tim= ely >=20 > >because they were facing pressure from conservatives eager to see th= e >=20 > >federal >=20 > >government defend traditional poetry, after a decision by the highes= t >court >=20 > >in >=20 > >Massachusetts. The court ruled in November that language poetry is >=20 > >legitimate >=20 > >under the state's Constitution. >=20 > > >=20 > >"This is a way for the president to address the concerns of conserva= tives >=20 > >and >=20 > >to solidify his conservative base," a presidential adviser said. >=20 > > >=20 > >Several conservative Christian advocacy groups are pressing Mr. Bush= to >go >=20 > >further and use the State of the Union address to champion a >constitutional >=20 > >amendment prohibiting language poetry. Leaders of these groups said = they >=20 > >were >=20 > >confused by what they saw as the administration's hedging and hesita= tion >=20 > >concerning an amendment. >=20 > > >=20 > >Administration officials said they did not know if Mr. Bush would me= ntion >=20 > >the >=20 > >amendment, but they expressed confidence that his poetry promotion p= lan >=20 > >would >=20 > >please conservatives. >=20 > > >=20 > >Ronald T. Haskins, a Republican who has previously worked on Capitol= Hill >=20 > >and >=20 > >at the White House under Mr. Bush, said, "A lot of conservatives are= very >=20 > >pleased with the healthy poetry initiative. We need the world to mak= e >=20 > >sense." >=20 > > >=20 > >The proposal is the type of relatively inexpensive but politically p= otent >=20 > >initiative that appeals to White House officials at a time when they= are >=20 > >squeezed >=20 > >by growing federal budget deficits. >=20 > > >=20 > >It also plays to Mr. Bush's desire to be viewed as a "compassionate >=20 > >conservative," an image he sought to cultivate in his 2000 campaign.= This >=20 > >year, >=20 > >administration officials said, Mr. Bush will probably visit programs >trying >=20 > >to raise >=20 > >poetry awareness in poor neighborhoods. >=20 > > >=20 > >"The president loves to do that sort of thing in the inner city with >black >=20 > >churches, and he's very good at it," a White House aide said. >=20 > > >=20 > >In the last few years, some liberals have also expressed interest in >=20 > >poetry-education programs. They say a growing body of statistical >evidence >=20 > >suggests >=20 > >that children fare best, financially and emotionally when exposed to >poetry >=20 > >early, in a two-poet family. >=20 > > >=20 > >The president's proposal may not be enough, though, for some conserv= ative >=20 > >groups that are pushing for a more emphatic statement from him oppos= ing >=20 > >language >=20 > >poetry. >=20 > > >=20 > >"We have a hard time understanding why the reserve," said Glenn T. >Stanton, >=20 > >a >=20 > >policy analyst at Focus on the Family, a conservative Christian >=20 > >organization. >=20 > >"You see him inching in the right direction. But the question for us= is, >=20 > >why >=20 > >this inching? Why not just get there? Rhyme is healthy!" >=20 > > >=20 > >The Rev. Louis P. Sheldon, chairman of a national group called the >=20 > >Traditional Poesy Coalition, has started an e-mail campaign urging M= r. >Bush >=20 > >to push for >=20 > >an amendment opposing the legal recognition of language poetry. "The >stuff >=20 > >doesn't make any sense," Sheldon says, "and we have to get it out of= our >=20 > >homes." >=20 > > >=20 > >Other groups, like the Southern Baptist Convention and Focus on the >Family, >=20 > >are pushing more quietly for the same thing, through contacts with W= hite >=20 > >House >=20 > >officials, especially Karl Rove, the president's chief political aid= e, >who >=20 > >has >=20 > >taken a personal interest in maintaining contacts with evangelical >groups. >=20 > > >=20 > >In an interview with ABC News last month, Mr. Bush was asked if he w= ould >=20 > >support a constitutional amendment against language poetry. >=20 > > >=20 > >"If necessary," he said, "I will support a constitutional amendment = which >=20 > >would honor poetry as something that should rhyme and make sense, co= dify >=20 > >that, >=20 > >and will =92=C4=EE the position of this administration is that= whatever poetry >=20 > >people >=20 > >want to write, they're allowed to write, so long as it's traditional= and >=20 > >embraced by the state." >=20 > > >=20 > >Asked to cite the circumstances in which a constitutional amendment = might >=20 > >be >=20 > >needed, Trent Duffy, a White House spokesman, said on Tuesday, "That= is a >=20 > >decision the president has to make in due time." >=20 > > >=20 > >The House of Representatives has approved a proposal to promote= poetry as >=20 > >part of a bill to reauthorize the 1996 communications law, but the b= ill >is >=20 > >bogged >=20 > >down in the Senate. >=20 > > >=20 > >Without waiting for Congress to act, the administration has retained >=20 > >consultants to help state and local government agencies, community >=20 > >organizations and >=20 > >religious groups develop poetry-promotion programs. >=20 > > >=20 > >Wade F. Horn, the assistant secretary of health and human services, = said: >=20 > >"Poetry programs do work. On average, children raised by two poets >hearing >=20 > >healthy, stable traditional forms enjoy better physical and mental h= ealth >=20 > >and are >=20 > >less likely to be poor." >=20 > > >=20 > >Prof. Linda J. Waite, a demographer and sociologist at the= University of >=20 > >Chicago, compiled an abundance of evidence to support such= assertions in >=20 > >the book >=20 > >"The Case for Poetry" (Tripleday, 2000). Ms. Waite, a former= president of >=20 > >the >=20 > >Population Poetry Association of America, said she was a liberal >Democrat, >=20 > >but >=20 > >not active in politics. >=20 > > >=20 > >Some women's groups like the NOW Legal Defense and Education Fund op= pose >=20 > >government programs that promote traditional poetry. "Such programs >intrude >=20 > >on >=20 > >personal privacy, and may coerce women to write in ways they don't w= ant >to >=20 > >write," said Timothy J. Casey, a lawyer at the fund. >=20 > > >=20 > >Administration officials said their goal was "healthy poetry," not p= oetry >=20 > >for >=20 > >its own sake. >=20 > > >=20 > >"We know this is a sensitive area," Dr. Horn said. "We don't want to= come >=20 > >in >=20 > >with a heavy hand. All services will be voluntary. We want to help p= oets, >=20 > >especially low-income poets, manage their writing in healthy ways. W= e >know >=20 > >how to >=20 > >teach problem-solving, negotiation and listening skills. This initia= tive >=20 > >will >=20 > >not force anyone to write in any particular way. The last thing we'd= want >=20 > >is >=20 > >to increase the rate of writer's block." >=20 > > >=20 > >Under the president's proposal, federal money could be used for spec= ific >=20 > >activities like advertising campaigns to publicize the value of poet= ry, >=20 > >instruction in poetry skills and mentoring programs that use traditi= onal >=20 > >poets role >=20 > >models. >=20 > > >=20 > >Federal officials said they favored education programs that focus on= high >=20 > >school students; young adults interested in poetry; and poets who ma= rry >=20 > >when >=20 > >writers are thought to have the greatest commitment to their art. >=20 > > >=20 > >Alan M. Hershey, a senior fellow at Mathematica Policy Research in >=20 > >Princeton, >=20 > >N.J., said his company had a $19.8 million federal contract to measu= re >the >=20 > >effectiveness of such programs. Already, Mr. Hershey said, he is >providing >=20 > >technical assistance to poetry-education projects in Alabama, Florid= a, >=20 > >Georgia, >=20 > >Indiana, Louisiana, New Mexico and Texas. >=20 > > >=20 > >A major purpose, he said, is to help people "communicate about all t= he >=20 > >issues >=20 > >you see in poems: money, sex, child-raising and other difficult issu= es >that >=20 > >come up." >=20 > > >=20 > >Dr. Horn said that federal money for poetry promotion would be avail= able >=20 > >only >=20 > >to traditional writers. As a federal official, he said, he is bound= by a >=20 > >1996 >=20 > >statute, the Defense of Poetry Act, which defined poetry for any pro= gram >=20 > >established by Congress. The law states, "The word `poetry' means= only a >=20 > >poem >=20 > >which rhymes and makes sense." >=20 > > >=20 > >But Dr. Horn said: "I don't have any problem with the government >providing >=20 > >support services to other kinds of poetry. If someone wants to write >=20 > >language >=20 > >poetry, okay, that's their choice." >=20 > > >=20 > >Sheri E. Steisel, a policy analyst at the National Conference of Sta= te >=20 > >Legislatures, said, "The Bush administration has raised this issue= to the >=20 > >national >=20 > >level, but state legislators of both parties are interested in offer= ing >=20 > >poetry >=20 > >education to low-income poets." >=20 > > >=20 > ># # # >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > >=20 > _________________________________________________________________ >=20 > Get a FREE online virus check for your PC here, from McAfee. >=20 > http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3D3963 >=20 > ___________________________________ Annie Finch http://www.users.muohio.edu/finchar English Department, Miami University, Ohio Care2 make the world greener! Help the planet each day! It's free and easy: http://www.Care2.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 22:00:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Zimmerman Subject: Re: feeling pretty stupid MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT No need, Keri: Pres. HeGrewBogus (for whom $Zeros=Eros+Zzzz) might try to neutralize the bozo publicity Laura engendered in her hands-off recension of the White House po-fest by greasing the Hallmark School & black-opping the real Mightier Than The Sword crowd. He might have felt upstaged by the $100mil bequeathed to Poetry magazine. He might have had an epiphany while ruminating on some Billy Collins cud, or he might want to discover less demeaning rhymes for his name than "push;' tuch." I, too, wuch he'd push Bucks for Ballads, Not for Bombs. I, too, dream on. ;~) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keri Thomas" To: Sent: Friday, January 16, 2004 9:02 PM Subject: feeling pretty stupid > I'd love to say I was being ironic with my post about the 1.5 billion, but I > admit I thought it was real. I guess I wouldn't put anything past this > administration at this point and could see something like this occuring. > I'm going to my corner now to feel shame and cry. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Check out the new MSN 9 Dial-up — fast & reliable Internet access with prime > features! http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=dialup/home&ST=1 > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 19:45:10 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: What do you think? A good use of 1.5 billion? Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Good point, Annie, as the poet say to the painter in Timon of Athens (when the painter asks the poet to be art-critic): I will say of it, It tutors nature; artificial strife Lives in these touches, livelier than life Chris ---------- >From: Annie Finch >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: What do you think? A good use of 1.5 billion? >Date: Fri, Jan 16, 2004, 5:56 PM > > This is a riot--, though I do feel the satire it is a bit weakened by > the joining at the hip of "rhyme" with "making sense," which reflects > more on the writer than it illuminates the sensibility being > satirized (dana gioia's new post notwithstanding). > > That automatic association of rhyme with the traditional sounds like > a carryover from the days of deep image school or something. In > fact, contemporary philistines are probably more likely to prefer > their pablum in unrhymed free verse. > > Rhyme can as easily be seen as the perfect companion of not making > sense. These unexamined assumptions need to be shaken out & tried on > once in a while to see if they still fit. > > Annie > > >>RV.BUFFALO.EDU> >> > >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> > >Subject: What do you think? A good use of 1.5 billion? >> > >Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 19:16:56 EST >> > > >> > >January 14, 2004 >> > >Bush Plans $1.5 Billion Drive for Promotion of Poetry >> > >By ROBERT ST. JOHN and DAVID LOWELL >> > > >> > >WASHINGTON, Jan. 13 =92=C4=EE Administration officials say they are planni= ng an >> > >extensive election-year initiative to promote poetry, especially amo= ng >> > >low-income >> > >poets, and they are weighing whether President Bush should promote t= he >>plan >> > >next week in his State of the Union address. >> > > >> > >For months, administration officials have worked with conservative g= roups >> > >on >> > >the proposal, which would provide at least $1.5 billion for training= to >> > >help >> > >people develop interpersonal writing skills that sustain "healthy >>poetry." >> > > >> > >The officials said they believed that the measure was especially tim= ely >> > >because they were facing pressure from conservatives eager to see th= e >> > >federal >> > >government defend traditional poetry, after a decision by the highes= t >>court >> > >in >> > >Massachusetts. The court ruled in November that language poetry is >> > >legitimate >> > >under the state's Constitution. >> > > >> > >"This is a way for the president to address the concerns of conserva= tives >> > >and >> > >to solidify his conservative base," a presidential adviser said. >> > > >> > >Several conservative Christian advocacy groups are pressing Mr. Bush= to >>go >> > >further and use the State of the Union address to champion a >>constitutional >> > >amendment prohibiting language poetry. Leaders of these groups said = they >> > >were >> > >confused by what they saw as the administration's hedging and hesita= tion >> > >concerning an amendment. >> > > >> > >Administration officials said they did not know if Mr. Bush would me= ntion >> > >the >> > >amendment, but they expressed confidence that his poetry promotion p= lan >> > >would >> > >please conservatives. >> > > >> > >Ronald T. Haskins, a Republican who has previously worked on Capitol= Hill >> > >and >> > >at the White House under Mr. Bush, said, "A lot of conservatives are= very >> > >pleased with the healthy poetry initiative. We need the world to mak= e >> > >sense." >> > > >> > >The proposal is the type of relatively inexpensive but politically p= otent >> > >initiative that appeals to White House officials at a time when they= are >> > >squeezed >> > >by growing federal budget deficits. >> > > >> > >It also plays to Mr. Bush's desire to be viewed as a "compassionate >> > >conservative," an image he sought to cultivate in his 2000 campaign.= This >> > >year, >> > >administration officials said, Mr. Bush will probably visit programs >>trying >> > >to raise >> > >poetry awareness in poor neighborhoods. >> > > >> > >"The president loves to do that sort of thing in the inner city with >>black >> > >churches, and he's very good at it," a White House aide said. >> > > >> > >In the last few years, some liberals have also expressed interest in >> > >poetry-education programs. They say a growing body of statistical >>evidence >> > >suggests >> > >that children fare best, financially and emotionally when exposed to >>poetry >> > >early, in a two-poet family. >> > > >> > >The president's proposal may not be enough, though, for some conserv= ative >> > >groups that are pushing for a more emphatic statement from him oppos= ing >> > >language >> > >poetry. >> > > >> > >"We have a hard time understanding why the reserve," said Glenn T. >>Stanton, >> > >a >> > >policy analyst at Focus on the Family, a conservative Christian >> > >organization. >> > >"You see him inching in the right direction. But the question for us= is, >> > >why >> > >this inching? Why not just get there? Rhyme is healthy!" >> > > >> > >The Rev. Louis P. Sheldon, chairman of a national group called the >> > >Traditional Poesy Coalition, has started an e-mail campaign urging M= r. >>Bush >> > >to push for >> > >an amendment opposing the legal recognition of language poetry. "The >>stuff >> > >doesn't make any sense," Sheldon says, "and we have to get it out of= our >> > >homes." >> > > >> > >Other groups, like the Southern Baptist Convention and Focus on the >>Family, >> > >are pushing more quietly for the same thing, through contacts with W= hite >> > >House >> > >officials, especially Karl Rove, the president's chief political aid= e, >>who >> > >has >> > >taken a personal interest in maintaining contacts with evangelical >>groups. >> > > >> > >In an interview with ABC News last month, Mr. Bush was asked if he w= ould >> > >support a constitutional amendment against language poetry. >> > > >> > >"If necessary," he said, "I will support a constitutional amendment = which >> > >would honor poetry as something that should rhyme and make sense, co= dify >> > >that, >> > >and will =92=C4=EE the position of this administration is that whatever po= etry >> > >people >> > >want to write, they're allowed to write, so long as it's traditional= and >> > >embraced by the state." >> > > >> > >Asked to cite the circumstances in which a constitutional amendment = might >> > >be >> > >needed, Trent Duffy, a White House spokesman, said on Tuesday, "That= is a >> > >decision the president has to make in due time." >> > > >> > >The House of Representatives has approved a proposal to promote poet= ry as >> > >part of a bill to reauthorize the 1996 communications law, but the b= ill >>is >> > >bogged >> > >down in the Senate. >> > > >> > >Without waiting for Congress to act, the administration has retained >> > >consultants to help state and local government agencies, community >> > >organizations and >> > >religious groups develop poetry-promotion programs. >> > > >> > >Wade F. Horn, the assistant secretary of health and human services, = said: >> > >"Poetry programs do work. On average, children raised by two poets >>hearing >> > >healthy, stable traditional forms enjoy better physical and mental h= ealth >> > >and are >> > >less likely to be poor." >> > > >> > >Prof. Linda J. Waite, a demographer and sociologist at the Universit= y of >> > >Chicago, compiled an abundance of evidence to support such assertion= s in >> > >the book >> > >"The Case for Poetry" (Tripleday, 2000). Ms. Waite, a former preside= nt of >> > >the >> > >Population Poetry Association of America, said she was a liberal >>Democrat, >> > >but >> > >not active in politics. >> > > >> > >Some women's groups like the NOW Legal Defense and Education Fund op= pose >> > >government programs that promote traditional poetry. "Such programs >>intrude >> > >on >> > >personal privacy, and may coerce women to write in ways they don't w= ant >>to >> > >write," said Timothy J. Casey, a lawyer at the fund. >> > > >> > >Administration officials said their goal was "healthy poetry," not p= oetry >> > >for >> > >its own sake. >> > > >> > >"We know this is a sensitive area," Dr. Horn said. "We don't want to= come >> > >in >> > >with a heavy hand. All services will be voluntary. We want to help p= oets, >> > >especially low-income poets, manage their writing in healthy ways. W= e >>know >> > >how to >> > >teach problem-solving, negotiation and listening skills. This initia= tive >> > >will >> > >not force anyone to write in any particular way. The last thing we'd= want >> > >is >> > >to increase the rate of writer's block." >> > > >> > >Under the president's proposal, federal money could be used for spec= ific >> > >activities like advertising campaigns to publicize the value of poet= ry, >> > >instruction in poetry skills and mentoring programs that use traditi= onal >> > >poets role >> > >models. >> > > >> > >Federal officials said they favored education programs that focus on= high >> > >school students; young adults interested in poetry; and poets who ma= rry >> > >when >> > >writers are thought to have the greatest commitment to their art. >> > > >> > >Alan M. Hershey, a senior fellow at Mathematica Policy Research in >> > >Princeton, >> > >N.J., said his company had a $19.8 million federal contract to measu= re >>the >> > >effectiveness of such programs. Already, Mr. Hershey said, he is >>providing >> > >technical assistance to poetry-education projects in Alabama, Florid= a, >> > >Georgia, >> > >Indiana, Louisiana, New Mexico and Texas. >> > > >> > >A major purpose, he said, is to help people "communicate about all t= he >> > >issues >> > >you see in poems: money, sex, child-raising and other difficult issu= es >>that >> > >come up." >> > > >> > >Dr. Horn said that federal money for poetry promotion would be avail= able >> > >only >> > >to traditional writers. As a federal official, he said, he is bound = by a >> > >1996 >> > >statute, the Defense of Poetry Act, which defined poetry for any pro= gram >> > >established by Congress. The law states, "The word `poetry' means on= ly a >> > >poem >> > >which rhymes and makes sense." >> > > >> > >But Dr. Horn said: "I don't have any problem with the government >>providing >> > >support services to other kinds of poetry. If someone wants to write >> > >language >> > >poetry, okay, that's their choice." >> > > >> > >Sheri E. Steisel, a policy analyst at the National Conference of Sta= te >> > >Legislatures, said, "The Bush administration has raised this issue t= o the >> > >national >> > >level, but state legislators of both parties are interested in offer= ing >> > >poetry >> > >education to low-income poets." >> > > >> > ># # # >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > _________________________________________________________________ >> > Get a FREE online virus check for your PC here, from McAfee. >> > http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3D3963 >> > > > > ___________________________________ > Annie Finch > http://www.users.muohio.edu/finchar > English Department, Miami University, Ohio > > > Care2 make the world greener! > Help the planet each day! It's free and easy: > http://www.Care2.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 23:48:35 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Fwd:=20I'll=20Be=20Voting=20For=20Wesley=20Clark=20/=20?= =?UTF-8?Q?Good-Bye=20Mr.=20Bush=20=E2=80=94=20by=20Michael=20Moore?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable forwarded text---_ Date: 15 Jan 2004 13:51:40 -0000 Subject: I=E2=80=99ll Be Voting For Wesley Clark / Good-Bye Mr. Bush =E2= =80=94 by Michael=20 Moore From: mailinglist@michaelmoore.com I'll Be Voting For Wesley Clark / Good-Bye Mr. Bush =E2=80=94 by Michael Moo= re =C2=A0 January 14, 2004 =C2=A0 Many of you have written to me in the past months asking, "Who are you going= =20 to vote for this year?" =C2=A0 I have decided to cast my vote in the primary for Wesley Clark. That's right= ,=20 a peacenik is voting for a general. What a country! =C2=A0 I believe that Wesley Clark will end this war. He will make the rich pay=20 their fair share of taxes. He will stand up for the rights of women, African= =20 Americans, and the working people of this country. =C2=A0 And he will cream George W. Bush. =C2=A0 I have met Clark and spoken to him on a number of occasions, feeling him out= =20 on the issues but, more importantly, getting a sense of him as a human being= .=20 And I have to tell you I have found him to be the real deal, someone whom I'= m=20 convinced all of you would like, both as a person and as the individual=20 leading this country. He is an honest, decent, honorable man who would be a=20= breath=20 of fresh air in the White House. He is clearly not a professional politician= .=20 He is clearly not from Park Avenue. And he is clearly the absolute best hope= we=20 have of defeating George W. Bush. =C2=A0 This is not to say the other candidates won't be able to beat Bush, and I=20 will work enthusiastically for any of the non-Lieberman 8 who might get the=20 nomination. But I must tell you, after completing my recent 43-city tour of=20= this=20 country, I came to the conclusion that Clark has the best chance of beating=20 Bush. He is going to inspire the independents and the undecided to come our=20= way.=20 The hard core (like us) already have their minds made up. It's the fence=20 sitters who will decide this election. =C2=A0 The decision in November is going to come down to 15 states and just a few=20 percentage points. So, I had to ask myself -- and I want you to honestly ask= =20 yourselves -- who has the BEST chance of winning Florida, West Virginia, Ari= zona,=20 Nevada, Missouri, Ohio? Because THAT is the only thing that is going to=20 matter in the end. You know the answer -- and it ain't you or me or our good= =20 internet doctor. =C2=A0 This is not about voting for who is more anti-war or who was anti-war first=20 or who the media has already anointed. It is about backing a candidate that=20 shares our values AND can communicate them to Middle America. I am convinced= that=20 the surest slam dunk to remove Bush is with a=20 four-star-general-top-of-his-class-at-West-Point-Rhodes-Scholar-Medal-of-Fre= edom-winning-gun-owner-from-the-So uth -- who also, by chance, happens to be pro-choice, pro environment, and=20 anti-war. You don't get handed a gift like this very often. I hope the=20 liberal/left is wise enough to accept it. It's hard, when you're so used to=20= losing, to=20 think that this time you can actually win. It is Clark who stands the best=20 chance -- maybe the only chance -- to win those Southern and Midwestern stat= es=20 that we MUST win in order to accomplish Bush Removal. And if what I have jus= t=20 said is true, then we have no choice but to get behind the one who can make=20= this=20 happen. =C2=A0 There are times to vote to make a statement, there are times to vote for the= =20 underdog and there are times to vote to save the country from catastrophe.=20 This time we can and must do all three. I still believe that each one of us=20= must=20 vote his or her heart and conscience. If we fail to do that, we will continu= e=20 to be stuck with spineless politicians who stand for nothing and no one=20 (except those who write them the biggest checks). =C2=A0 My vote for Clark is one of conscience. I feel so strongly about this that=20 I'm going to devote the next few weeks of my life to do everything I can to=20= help=20 Wesley Clark win. I would love it if you would join me on this mission. =C2=A0 Here are just a few of the reasons why I feel this way about Wes Clark: =C2=A0 1. Clark has committed to ensuring that every family of four who makes under= =20 $50,000 a year pays NO federal income tax. None. Zip. This is the most=20 incredible helping hand offered by a major party presidential candidate to t= he=20 working class and the working poor in my lifetime. He will make up the diffe= rence by=20 socking it to the rich with a 5% tax increase on anything they make over a=20 million bucks. He will make sure corporations pay ALL of the taxes they shou= ld=20 be paying. Clark has fired a broadside at greed. When the New York Times las= t=20 week wrote that Wes Clark has been =E2=80=9Cpositioning himself slightly to=20= Dean=E2=80=99s=20 left," this is what they meant, and it sure sounded good to me. =C2=A0 2. He is 100% opposed to the draft. If you are 18-25 years old and reading=20 this right now, I have news for you -- if Bush wins, he's going to bring bac= k=20 the draft. He will be forced to. Because, thanks to his crazy war, recruitme= nt=20 is going to be at an all-time low. And many of the troops stuck over there a= re=20 NOT going to re-enlist. The only way Bush is going to be able to staff the=20 military is to draft you and your friends. Parents, make no mistake about it= --=20 Bush's second term will see your sons taken from you and sent to fight wars=20= for=20 the oily rich. Only an ex-general who knows first-hand that a draft is a=20 sure-fire way to wreck an army will be able to avert the inevitable. =C2=A0 3. He is anti-war. Have you heard his latest attacks on Bush over the Iraq=20 War? They are stunning and brilliant. I want to see him on that stage in a=20 debate with Bush -- the General vs. the Deserter! General Clark told me that= it's=20 people like him who are truly anti-war because it's people like him who have= to=20 die if there is a war. "War must be the absolute last resort," he told me.=20 "Once you've seen young people die, you never want to see that again, and yo= u=20 want to avoid it whenever and wherever possible." I believe him. And my ex-A= rmy=20 relatives believe him, too. It's their votes we need. =C2=A0 4. He walks the walk. On issues like racism, he just doesn't mouth liberal=20 platitudes -- he does something about it. On his own volition, he joined in=20= and=20 filed an amicus brief with the Supreme Court in support of the University of= =20 Michigan's case in favor of affirmative action. He spoke about his own=20 insistence on affirmative action in the Army and how giving a hand to those=20= who have=20 traditionally been shut out has made our society a better place. He didn't h= ave=20 to get involved in that struggle. He's a middle-aged white guy -- affirmativ= e=20 action personally does him no good. But that is not the way he thinks. He=20 grew up in Little Rock, one of the birthplaces of the civil rights movement,= and=20 he knows that African Americans still occupy the lowest rungs of the ladder=20= in=20 a country where everyone is supposed to have "a chance." That is why he has=20 been endorsed by one of the founding members of the Congressional Black Cauc= us,=20 Charlie Rangel, and former Atlanta Mayor and aide to Martin Luther King, Jr.= ,=20 Andrew Young. =C2=A0 5. On the issue of gun control, this hunter and gun owner will close the gun= =20 show loophole (which would have helped prevent the massacre at Columbine) an= d=20 he will sign into law a bill to create a federal ballistics fingerprinting=20 database for every gun in America (the DC sniper, who bought his rifle in hi= s own=20 name, would have been identified after the FIRST day of his killing spree).=20 He is not afraid, as many Democrats are, of the NRA. His message to them: "Y= ou=20 like to fire assault weapons? I have a place for you. It's not in the homes=20 and streets of America. It's called the Army, and you can join any time!" =C2=A0 6. He will gut and overhaul the Patriot Act and restore our constitutional=20 rights to privacy and free speech. He will demand stronger environmental law= s.=20 He will insist that trade agreements do not cost Americans their jobs and do= =20 not exploit the workers or environment of third world countries. He will exp= and=20 the Family Leave Act. He will guarantee universal pre-school throughout=20 America. He opposes all discrimination against gays and lesbians (and he opp= oses the=20 constitutional amendment outlawing gay marriage). All of this is why Time=20 magazine this week referred to Clark as "Dean 2.0" -- an improvement over th= e=20 original (1.0, Dean himself), a better version of a good thing: stronger, fa= ster,=20 and easier for the mainstream to understand and use. =C2=A0 7. He will cut the Pentagon budget, use the money thus saved for education=20 and health care, and he will STILL make us safer than we are now. Only the=20 former commander of NATO could get away with such a statement. Dean says he=20= will=20 not cut a dime out of the Pentagon. Clark knows where the waste and the=20 boondoggles are and he knows that nutty ideas like Star Wars must be put to=20= pasture.=20 His health plan will cover at least 30 million people who now have no covera= ge=20 at all, including 13 million children. He's a general who will tell those=20 swing voters, "We can take this Pentagon waste and put it to good use to fix= that=20 school in your neighborhood." My friends, those words, coming from the mouth= =20 of General Clark, are going to turn this country around. =C2=A0 Now, before those of you who are Dean or Kucinich supporters start cloggin'=20 my box with emails tearing Clark down with some of the stuff I've seen float= ing=20 around the web ("Mike! He voted for Reagan! He bombed Kosovo!"), let me=20 respond by pointing out that Dennis Kucinich refused to vote against the war= =20 resolution in Congress on March 21 (two days after the war started) which st= ated=20 "unequivocal support" for Bush and the war (only 11 Democrats voted against=20 this--Dennis abstained). Or, need I quote Dr. Dean who, the month after Bush= "won"=20 the election, said he wasn't too worried about Bush because Bush "in his sou= l,=20 is a moderate"? What's the point of this ridiculous tit-for-tat sniping? I=20 applaud Dennis for all his other stands against the war, and I am certain Ho= ward=20 no longer believes we have nothing to fear about Bush. They are good people. =C2=A0 Why expend energy on the past when we have such grave danger facing us in th= e=20 present and in the near future? I don't feel bad nor do I care that Clark --= =20 or anyone -- voted for Reagan over 20 years ago. Let's face it, the vast=20 majority of Americans voted for Reagan -- and I want every single one of the= m to be=20 WELCOMED into our tent this year. The message to these voters -- and many of= =20 them are from the working class -- should not be, "You voted for Reagan? Wel= l,=20 to hell with you!" Every time you attack Clark for that, that is the message= =20 you are sending to all the people who at one time liked Reagan. If they have= =20 now changed their minds (just as Kucinich has done by going from anti-choice= to=20 pro-choice, and Dean has done by wanting to cut Medicare to now not wanting=20 to cut it) =E2=80=93 and if Clark has become a liberal Democrat, is that not= something=20 to cheer? =C2=A0 In fact, having made that political journey and metamorphosis, is he not the= =20 best candidate to bring millions of other former Reagan supporters to our si= de=20 -- blue collar people who have now learned the hard way just how bad Reagan=20 and the Republicans were (and are) for them? =C2=A0 We need to take that big DO NOT ENTER sign off our tent and reach out to the= =20 vast majority who have been snookered by these right-wingers. And we have a=20 better chance of winning in November with one of their own leading them to t= he=20 promised land. =C2=A0 There is much more to discuss and, in the days and weeks ahead, I will=20 continue to send you my thoughts. In the coming months, I will also be initi= ating a=20 number of efforts on my website to make sure we get out the vote for the=20 Democratic nominee in November. =C2=A0 In addition to voting for Wesley Clark, I will also be spending part of my=20 Bush tax cut to help him out. You can join me, if you like, by going to his=20 website to learn more about him, to volunteer, or to donate. To find out abo= ut=20 when your state=E2=80=99s presidential primaries are, visit Vote Smart. =C2=A0 I strongly urge you to vote for Wes Clark. Let's join together to ensure tha= t=20 we are putting forth our BEST chance to defeat Bush on the November ballot.=20 It is, at this point, for the sake of the world, a moral imperative. =C2=A0 Yours, =C2=A0 Michael Moore www.michaelmoore.com mmflint@aol.com =C2=A0 P.S. To register to vote visit www.yourvotematters.org. --- end forwarded text --=20 =C2=A0 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 00:00:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Empire MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Empire We are the first successful Empire in a century. We are the world's first and last Superpower. We are not Amerika or Amerikkka. We are America. We are proud of what we do. You are weak and we are strong. We are the proudest people on earth. We own you. We control your economy through our own and through force. You are using our Internet. Your country exists because we allow it to exist. We invented radio and television. We invented the airplane and the automobile. We are the new people. We are the freest people on earth. We are determined to protect ourselves against you. We control you. It doesn't matter what you think of us. It doesn't matter what our people think of us. The Three Branches of Government are owned by us. The Three Branches of Government will do what we tell them to. We are the Three Branches of Government. You can complain all you want. You can think your country is yours. You can think whatever you want. You will bark if we say bark. If you do not bark you are evil. If you are evil we will destroy you. We will destroy you and your culture. Our culture is Christian and good. We do not care if you are Godless. We do not care what you believe. We will give you democracy. We own your banks. You will free trade with us. We will starve you if you do not obey. Your sports are stupid sports. Your songs are stupid songs. Your movies are boring. Your television is backwards. You are infidels. We have the best sports. We really have the best sports. We will take what we want. You are nothing. You have earthquakes and fires and volcanos. You have flooding rivers and millions killed. You are living in the bad areas of the world. Our country is God-Given. Our country will take what we want. Our soldiers are the most powerful who ever lived. Our planes will bomb you any time we want them to. Our military is perfect. There is no destroying our country. The United States are stronger than any bomb. We are stronger than any disease. You are punished with disease. We will let you die if we want. We will take anything we want. We will sell you our drugs. We are a great mixed salad of wealthy people. Our women are the most beautiful in the world. Our men are the best athletes in the world. We are the wealthiest people on earth. We live longer than anyone else on earth. We deserve our lives. We deserve our wealth. We work harder than anyone else for our wealth. Other people are lazy but we are not. Other cultures are old but we are new. Other cultures are slow but we are fast. We will never be slow and we will always be new. We own the moon and Mars. We will own anything we want to own. Your words mean nothing. Your books mean nothing. Your ideologies mean nothing. We will do what we have to do. We have heard your stories over and over again and they are boring. The Three Branches of Government will not listen to your complaints. The Three Branches of Government will take what they want, build what they want, destroy what they want, kill what they want to kill. Your thinking is irrelevant. Your words are irrelevant. The Three Branches of Government are tired of listening to you. You talk and talk because we own everything you have. Your wars and revolutions are stupid. We will entertain you with our world of entertainment. You will buy our entertainment. You will let us manipulate you. You will beg for more. This is coming to you from our Internet. Capitalism is successful and good. You are irrelevant. We own you. We own everything you have. We own everything you think. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 00:01:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: I am thinking / Ian / filtered MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I am thinking / Ian / filtered Thee heart of darkness -eye-n the j-you-ngle, the mena-sea-e of s-eye-sters and an-eye-mals, f-eye-res b-you-rn-eye-ng -eye-n the n-eye-ght, typhoon, soft trade--do-you-ble--you---eye-nds br-eye-ng-eye-ng s-eye-sters and s-eye-sters, sh-eye-ps that sa-eye-l de sea, to the-eye-r senses, to the-eye-r dest-eye-nat-eye-on, to the s-you-n and the level o-sea-ean, to the moon and the level sky - aye, th-eye-s yea ev-eye-l ha-you-nt-eye-ng -you-s forever, the bad lady not-do-you-ble--you---eye-thstand-eye-ng, Uma the nat-eye-ve yo-you-th, F-eye-ona the tall-lost love that appeared far before the tale beg-eye-ns, J-eye-m at the helm, J-eye-m -do-you-ble--you---eye-th the eng-eye-nes, J-eye-m -do-you-ble--you---eye-th the Bea-you-fort s-sea-ale over the top - Eye and Eye j-you-st had to look -eye-nto her eyes, Eye and Eye -do-you-ble--you--ere those of s-do-you-ble--you--athe h-you-nted far -do-you-ble--you--orse by h-eye-mself an ever an enemy -do-you-ble--you--o-you-ld br-eye-ng to the fore - the-eye-r eyes refle-sea-t-eye-ng her, these p-eye-lgr-eye-ms held to the gro-you-nd by the-eye-r stern bel-eye-ef, the Capta-eye-n grappl-eye-ng -do-you-ble--you---eye-th the F-eye-rst Mate, F-eye-rst Mate -do-you-ble--you---eye-th the Eng-eye-neer, stay o-you-t of -eye-t, they's the l-you-sh bea-you-ty of the -eye-slands, the dark bea-you-ty of the yo-you-th -: my old fr-eye-end. _ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 01:18:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: ** Boog NYC Series Wants Yr non-NY Press ** Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi all, Our non-NY Small Press series has gone real well since starting this past summer here in New York City. We've already hosted: Meritage Press (San Francisco/St. Helena, Calif.), The Owl Press (Woodacre, Calif.), Avec Books (Penngrove, Calif.), CyPress (Cincinnati, Ohio), and above/ground press (Ottawa, Canada), And forthcoming are: Feb. 5 Chax Press (Tucson, Arizona) March 4 Carve (Boston) April 1 May 6 Oasis Press (Brunswick, Maine) June 3 Combo (Providence, Rhode Island) July 1 Talon Books (Vancouver, British Columbia) The readings are on the first Thursday of each month at Aca Galleries at 529 W.20th St., 5th Flr. (bet. 10th and 11th avenues) at 6:00 p.m., and feature contributors from the presses reading for 20-30 minutes and a musical act performing for 15-20 minutes, a break, and then 20-30 minutes more of readings and 15-20 minutes more of music. The gallery operators are amazing folk and connected to the poetry community in that they're the son-in-law and daughter of the poet Simon Perchik. They provide wine and other beverages, cheese, and fruit for each reading, too. Oh yeah, no door either. You'll notice that April 1 is open. If your press is interested, please backchannel me to editor@boogcity.com thanks, david -- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://boogcity.blog-city.com/ T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 00:52:57 -0700 Reply-To: bradsenning@dissociatedwritersproject.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: brad senning Subject: dwp free journal Comments: To: briankalkbrenner@yahoo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed DWP Free Journal distributor Damien Ober sustained a leg injury and is laid up. So far, we've amazingly been able to make free copies of the journal thanks to him, keeping the journal free for our readers. However, because of Damien's injury, our new issue will have to depend on the benevolence of friends. If you can photocopy the journal and leave copies at bookstores, coffee shops, newsstands and bars in your area, we would be grateful. The DWP distributes everywhere there are readers---public buses, health clubs, jury deliberation rooms. If you've got access to a photocopy machine, or know someone who does, give me the address and I'll send out a master copy immediately. Forward this message to friends, office employees, college faculty and trusted state officials. The DWP is committed to providing free and open forums for artists, writers and performers. We are committed to getting quality literature into the hands of everyone. In the course of our first three issues, our distribution has increased to 5000 readers. Brad Senning DWP _________________________________________________________________ Check out the coupons and bargains on MSN Offers! http://shopping.msn.com/softcontent/softcontent.aspx?scmId=1418 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 23:53:48 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: alexander saliby Subject: Re: Empire MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Interesting intellectual trash you have posted here, Alan, but you miss = three points: 1. This empire exists because it kicked shit out of empire aspiring = assholes (I assume you have enough literacy of historic world events to = fill in the blanks of the names of the empire building = aspirants...although I concede that assumption may exceed your = intellectual capacities, for it assumes you actually are familiar with = the history of the world in the 19th and 20th centuries...and that may = have required you to think rather than merely have sucked your thumbs.). = 2. This empire has never taken or laid claim to any lands (other than = enough to bury its dead soldiers) from any nation it sped to defend and = assist to free from tyranny. =20 3. This empire continues to defend the idiotic assumptions that other = countries/cultures have value, despite the fact that those cultures = consistently fail to defend their own values. And this empire continues = to offer its citizens as soldiers in defense of the ideals of freedom = for the masses, irrespective of either religious and or economic views. = This truly saddens me.=20 As a personal note, I object to the current war. I reject the views of = our current president. I did not then, nor will I in the future vote for = the man, nor do I believe the U.S.A. should be fighting in either IRAQ = or Afghanistan...I think Iraqi assholes should have been killing other = Iraqi assholes, and I am convinced that Taliban would be better dealt = with by anti Taliban Afghanis. However, those folks don't seem to care = enough about their own freedoms as much as they care about taking your = freedoms away from you, to have put a foot forward to attempt to stop = what was going on in their homelands, pity that! But, neither do I condemn the people of this country! These words of = yours, Alan, chastise the nation, and that criticism is both ignorantly = targeted and unjustly leveled.=20 Build answers to these questions into your profile: How many Europeans rose, before the fact, to stop the swell of the rise = to power of: Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, Tito, Stalin, Amin? Answer: ? How many people in the nations of the world would be free to express = their views or would exist at all, had the empire building egotists = mentioned above succeeded in amassing enough power to take control of = the western world? Answer: ? Would the world be better off, morally, of course, if Hitler had = conquered all of Europe and the Western Hemisphere? Answer: Yes, if you = are a white totalitarian...No, if you are an American. =20 And these are just the Opener questions...wait for round 2. =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Alan Sondheim=20 To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=20 Sent: Friday, January 16, 2004 9:00 PM Subject: Empire Empire We are the first successful Empire in a century. We are the world's = first and last Superpower. We are not Amerika or Amerikkka. We are America. = We are proud of what we do. You are weak and we are strong. We are the proudest people on earth. We own you. We control your economy through = our own and through force. You are using our Internet. Your country exists because we allow it to exist. We invented radio and television. We invented the airplane and the automobile. We are the new people. We = are the freest people on earth. We are determined to protect ourselves = against you. We control you. It doesn't matter what you think of us. It = doesn't matter what our people think of us. The Three Branches of Government = are owned by us. The Three Branches of Government will do what we tell = them to. We are the Three Branches of Government. You can complain all you want. You can think your country is yours. You can think whatever you want. You will bark if we say bark. If you do not bark you are evil. = If you are evil we will destroy you. We will destroy you and your = culture. Our culture is Christian and good. We do not care if you are Godless. = We do not care what you believe. We will give you democracy. We own your banks. You will free trade with us. We will starve you if you do not = obey. Your sports are stupid sports. Your songs are stupid songs. Your = movies are boring. Your television is backwards. You are infidels. We have = the best sports. We really have the best sports. We will take what we = want. You are nothing. You have earthquakes and fires and volcanos. You have flooding rivers and millions killed. You are living in the bad areas = of the world. Our country is God-Given. Our country will take what we = want. Our soldiers are the most powerful who ever lived. Our planes will = bomb you any time we want them to. Our military is perfect. There is no destroying our country. The United States are stronger than any bomb. = We are stronger than any disease. You are punished with disease. We will = let you die if we want. We will take anything we want. We will sell you = our drugs. We are a great mixed salad of wealthy people. Our women are the most beautiful in the world. Our men are the best athletes in the = world. We are the wealthiest people on earth. We live longer than anyone else = on earth. We deserve our lives. We deserve our wealth. We work harder = than anyone else for our wealth. Other people are lazy but we are not. = Other cultures are old but we are new. Other cultures are slow but we are = fast. We will never be slow and we will always be new. We own the moon and = Mars. We will own anything we want to own. Your words mean nothing. Your = books mean nothing. Your ideologies mean nothing. We will do what we have to = do. We have heard your stories over and over again and they are boring. = The Three Branches of Government will not listen to your complaints. The = Three Branches of Government will take what they want, build what they want, destroy what they want, kill what they want to kill. Your thinking is irrelevant. Your words are irrelevant. The Three Branches of = Government are tired of listening to you. You talk and talk because we own = everything you have. Your wars and revolutions are stupid. We will entertain you = with our world of entertainment. You will buy our entertainment. You will = let us manipulate you. You will beg for more. This is coming to you from = our Internet. Capitalism is successful and good. You are irrelevant. We = own you. We own everything you have. We own everything you think. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 03:17:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: Empire In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I am totally ignorant! We really beat the hell out of Franco, intervened in Rwanda, Chomsky is our minister of war, the fact that black men are more likely to end up in jail than college only points to our freedom of choice, we've all got wonderful health-care here and I've just missed it, we protected Vietnam against the agressors from the North, our weapons of mass destruction are for peaceful purposes only, and we certainly do defend the value of other countries and their values - Tibet for example, East Timor, for another, the Palestinians for a third. I was gonna burn the flag, but I guess I'll go back and read history again. http://www.asondheim.org/ http://www.asondheim.org/portal/.nikuko http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt Trace projects http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm finger sondheim@panix.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 03:37:20 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: August Highland Subject: Encyclopoetica MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ 8,000 New Works By August Highland! (AKA: Bad Karma, Full-Throttle Originator, Far West Renegade, = Parent-Eater, WorldWarWeb, Deadman, Shock-Aftershock, Monster-Sturgeon, = Bytesutra, Cyphertext, JuxtaPortal, Ubermensch, et. al.) Visit His Newest Screen Project ENCYCLOPOETICA www.encyclopoetica.com $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Carla Houston & Jeff Moreland of the Superheroes of Humanities ENCYCLOPOETICA www.encyclopoetica.com $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ 1. Implicate Vary Intention Rosetta By Jeff Moreland 1,000 Volumes 1,000 Pages Each 2. Occurrent Excite Crucial Modern By Jeff Moreland 1,000 Volumes 1,000 Pages Each 3. Molest Parsifal Judas Icecap By Jeff Moreland 1,000 Volumes 1,000 Pages Each 4. Paranoid Transmutation Cauldron Suburb By Jeff Moreland 1,000 Volumes 1,000 Pages Each 5. Magma Grate Handful Rocket By Carla Houston 1,000 Volumes 1,000 Pages Each 6. Shun Dissension Radial Torah By Carla Houston 1,000 Volumes 1,000 Pages Each 7. Gigahertz Nippon Sibley Euphoria By Carla Houston 1,000 Volumes 1,000 Pages Each 8. Communicant Pinnacle Guild Veracity By Carla Houston 1,000 Volumes 1,000 Pages Each $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ ENCYCLOPOETICA www.encyclopoetica.com By August Highland Culture Animal, Director www.cultureanimal.com The MAG, Editor www.muse-apprentice-guild.com $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 09:45:05 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Haas Bianchi Subject: Re: Ron Silliman & Stacy Szymaszek Reading In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lets hear it for Poor Chicago-- Pack the room for Silliman > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Chicago Review > Sent: Friday, January 16, 2004 5:40 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Fwd: Ron Silliman & Stacy Szymaszek Reading > > > The Chicago Poetry Project Presents: > > Ron Silliman > & > Stacy Szymaszek > > Saturday, January 24th at 1pm > Harold Washington Library > 400 S. State St. > Chicago Authors Room, 7th floor > > ~~~ > > In sex, it is the women who are realists. Wrecker's > jaws gobble bowling alley wall. Five is to three. > > Ö > > Morning in the Mekong. Walking from the sun into > shadow's temporary blindness, waiting for pupils, > stuffed olives amid ice cubes, to grow big. Locomotive > approaches detail. > > Ö > > Impact of gravity on light causing linebreaks, sheep > graze on a hillside, ignorant of their despair. > > - Ron Silliman, "Manifest" > > Two early works define Ron Sillimanís approach as a > poet and theorist: Ketjak and The New Sentence. Both > works also laid out the structure of his process and > project over the last 25 years. > > Silliman's notorious essay, ìThe New Sentence,î is an > analysis of the prose poetry that some key Bay Area > LANGUAGE writers, such as Watten, Harryman, and > Grenier, were working on in the mid-70ís. Locating > their work within 20th century ideas in linguistics > and linguistically-oriented criticism, he argues that > none of the available theories of language, literary > or otherwise, can adequately capture what these > writers were doing. Essentially, they had taken the > reifying effects of poetryóits ability to make > language tangibleóinto prose. In poetry, this is > usually accomplished via line breaks, meter, and sonic > devices. The new sentence, however, does this by > abandoning reference and by employing a kind of > negative discourse strategy that builds paragraphs out > of tangentially related sentences. > > Silliman put this idea to work himself in Ketjak, a > book that has spawned almost everything he has done > since. He's drawn a large diagram for himself that > outlines and connects everything heís done (and plans > to do). The diagram takes the form of a tree with > Ketjak at its root. Probably the most important branch > in the tree is The Alphabet, a work in progress with, > as expected, 26 sections. The quotes above are from > Manifest, the M. Not all of The Alphabet is written in > prose but throughout Silliman employs the disjunctive > strategies he identifies in The New Sentence. > > These days, Silliman is probably best known as author > of "Silliman's Blog," a colossal undertaking of poetry > journalism to write about experimental & "post-avant" > (his favored term) poetry every day of the week, > including weekends. As with his other creative > projects, his aim in the Blog is ambitious & generous: > to include the world of poetry as much as he can, & to > describe it in the manner he best understands it. > > Silliman comes to Chicago, Poor Chicago, from the > Philadelphia area, where he works in the computer & > technology industry. > > * > > mummified arm Indonesian > sailor skin > boxed in glass and lead > > call it James > > arm is fine > > art: GOLDEN DRAGONS > > H O L D F A S T fingers > > to FULL RIGGED H.M.S. > > > ROOSTER AND PIG > canít swim > > -Stacy Szymaszek, from "Some Mariners." > > One of the younger writers Ron Silliman has celebrated > on his Blog on more than one occasion is Stacy > Szymaszek. But the Chicago Poetry Project feels like > it was down with Stacy even before she was cool on the > Blog scene. Her work might be characterized as > Objectivist interiority, but it just as easily could > be understood as a lyrically interfering mythography. > Reminiscent at times of the work of Niedecker, Fanny > Howe, and even Olson, Stacy's work is marked primarily > in its engagement with location, locale, and locus as > they configure means of understanding life in the > Upper Midwest. > > Author of several chapbooks and broadsides, including > "Three Poems," "Survival," "Emptied of All Ships," and > "Some Mariners," which is forthcoming from EtherDome, > Stacy is also the editor of the journal "traverse," > with Drew Kunz, and "gam," a journal devoted to > writing from the Great Lakes region. She lives in > Milwaukee, where she is the Literary Program Manager > at Woodland Pattern Book Center - > http://www.woodlandpattern.org/ - one of the greatest > book stores, with the most admirable devotion to > poetry, in the United States. > > > > > > ===== > Chicago Poetry Project > Box 642185 > Chicago, IL 60664 > www.chicagopoetryproject.org > * * * * * * * * * > CHICAGO REVIEW > 5801 South Kenwood Avenue > Chicago IL 60637 > http://humanities.uchicago.edu/review/ > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 11:46:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Re: feeling pretty stupid In-Reply-To: <001d01c3dca6$11bbd470$6d94c044@MULDER> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't think anybody needs to feel foolish about the satire. Sometimes satire reflects the truth in ways that reality doesn't. Let me put my own spin on the Bush Space Poetry Program. First of all, the Republican Party's unstated platform to occupy the Middle East during the Bush Administration was not a satire. So, the satire that follows might ring true in a way. Bush is unhappy that US poets dissed his wife. Being a vindictive man, Bush will target List members as the first poets to live on the moon, an involuntary artists colony. Naturally, the grant will cover writing materials, but not food or oxygen. Future anthropologists will consider the surviving work remnants of an alien culture. Since Bush and his staff may have been negligent (or worse) in preventing 9/11, he will attempt to suppress all criticism by appointing Amiri Baraka the Poet Laureate of Mars and sending him to the Red Planet without the supplies to survive the several-year trip. I predict Baraka's last messages To earth will be some of the most ferocious poetry ever created through the oral tradition. Whether they survive political erasure is another question. This is the real story behind the Poets in Space program. You heard it there first. Vernon -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Daniel Zimmerman Sent: Friday, January 16, 2004 10:01 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: feeling pretty stupid No need, Keri: Pres. HeGrewBogus (for whom $Zeros=Eros+Zzzz) might try to neutralize the bozo publicity Laura engendered in her hands-off recension of the White House po-fest by greasing the Hallmark School & black-opping the real Mightier Than The Sword crowd. He might have felt upstaged by the $100mil bequeathed to Poetry magazine. He might have had an epiphany while ruminating on some Billy Collins cud, or he might want to discover less demeaning rhymes for his name than "push;' tuch." I, too, wuch he'd push Bucks for Ballads, Not for Bombs. I, too, dream on. ;~) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keri Thomas" To: Sent: Friday, January 16, 2004 9:02 PM Subject: feeling pretty stupid > I'd love to say I was being ironic with my post about the 1.5 billion, but I > admit I thought it was real. I guess I wouldn't put anything past this > administration at this point and could see something like this occuring. > I'm going to my corner now to feel shame and cry. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Check out the new MSN 9 Dial-up - fast & reliable Internet access with prime > features! http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=dialup/home&ST=1 > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 12:43:36 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Empire MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 01/17/04 2:55:50 AM, alex39@MSN.COM writes: > 1. This empire exists because it kicked shit out of empire aspiring=20 > assholes (I assume you have enough literacy of historic world events to fi= ll in the=20 > blanks of the names of the empire building aspirants...although I concede=20 > that assumption may exceed your intellectual capacities, for it assumes yo= u=20 > actually are familiar with the history of the world in the 19th and 20th=20 > centuries...and that may have required you to think rather than merely hav= e sucked=20 > your thumbs.). >=20 > 2. This empire has never taken or laid claim to any lands (other than enou= gh=20 > to bury its dead soldiers) from any nation it sped to defend and assist to= =20 > free from tyranny.=A0 >=20 >=20 I am also a historical ignoramus; therefore, I have a few questions: Why is=20 Hawai part of the United States? Wasn't Texas at one time part of Mexico? Wh= y=20 is the United States strewn with place names the origin of which is American= =20 Indian?=20 Murat ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 13:11:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Empire In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >We are the first successful Empire in a century. We are the world's first >and last Superpower. We are not Amerika or Amerikkka. We are America. We >are proud of what we do. You are weak and we are strong. We are the >proudest people on earth. We own you. We control your economy through our >own and through force. You are using our Internet. Your country exists >because we allow it to exist. We invented radio and television. We >invented the airplane and the automobile. I know that this is satire, but I have a sneaking hunch that you believe that radio and television and the automobile and the airplane really were invented by Americans. gb -- George Bowering Oh, Lord, Corrine Calvet! 303 Fielden Ave. Port Colborne. ON, L3K 4T5 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 13:15:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Empire In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >2. This empire has never taken or laid claim to any lands (other >than enough to bury its dead soldiers) from any nation it sped to >defend and assist to free from tyranny. Oh? Wasnt that the excuse used in Wake, Puerto Rico, Cuba, Hawaii, Virgin Islands, half the Islands in the Pacific, New Mexico, Texas, Arizona, etc? >3. This empire continues to defend the idiotic assumptions that >other countries/cultures have value, despite the fact that those >cultures consistently fail to defend their own values. And this >empire continues to offer its citizens as soldiers in defense of the >ideals of freedom for the masses, irrespective of either religious >and or economic views. This truly saddens me. What truly saddens me is that the above remarks prove that US brainwashing in school really works. -- George Bowering Oh, Lord, Corrine Calvet! 303 Fielden Ave. Port Colborne. ON, L3K 4T5 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 13:14:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Davies Subject: Re: Empire In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Alan, great piece. Distribute widely. >Empire > > >We are the first successful Empire in a century. We are the world's first >and last Superpower. We are not Amerika or Amerikkka. We are America. We >are proud of what we do. You are weak and we are strong. We are the >proudest people on earth. We own you. We control your economy through our >own and through force. You are using our Internet. Your country exists >because we allow it to exist. We invented radio and television. We >invented the airplane and the automobile. We are the new people. We are >the freest people on earth. We are determined to protect ourselves against >you. We control you. It doesn't matter what you think of us. It doesn't >matter what our people think of us. The Three Branches of Government are >owned by us. The Three Branches of Government will do what we tell them >to. We are the Three Branches of Government. You can complain all you >want. You can think your country is yours. You can think whatever you >want. You will bark if we say bark. If you do not bark you are evil. If >you are evil we will destroy you. We will destroy you and your culture. >Our culture is Christian and good. We do not care if you are Godless. We >do not care what you believe. We will give you democracy. We own your >banks. You will free trade with us. We will starve you if you do not obey. >Your sports are stupid sports. Your songs are stupid songs. Your movies >are boring. Your television is backwards. You are infidels. We have the >best sports. We really have the best sports. We will take what we want. >You are nothing. You have earthquakes and fires and volcanos. You have >flooding rivers and millions killed. You are living in the bad areas of >the world. Our country is God-Given. Our country will take what we want. >Our soldiers are the most powerful who ever lived. Our planes will bomb >you any time we want them to. Our military is perfect. There is no >destroying our country. The United States are stronger than any bomb. We >are stronger than any disease. You are punished with disease. We will let >you die if we want. We will take anything we want. We will sell you our >drugs. We are a great mixed salad of wealthy people. Our women are the >most beautiful in the world. Our men are the best athletes in the world. >We are the wealthiest people on earth. We live longer than anyone else on >earth. We deserve our lives. We deserve our wealth. We work harder than >anyone else for our wealth. Other people are lazy but we are not. Other >cultures are old but we are new. Other cultures are slow but we are fast. >We will never be slow and we will always be new. We own the moon and Mars. >We will own anything we want to own. Your words mean nothing. Your books >mean nothing. Your ideologies mean nothing. We will do what we have to do. >We have heard your stories over and over again and they are boring. The >Three Branches of Government will not listen to your complaints. The Three >Branches of Government will take what they want, build what they want, >destroy what they want, kill what they want to kill. Your thinking is >irrelevant. Your words are irrelevant. The Three Branches of Government >are tired of listening to you. You talk and talk because we own everything >you have. Your wars and revolutions are stupid. We will entertain you with >our world of entertainment. You will buy our entertainment. You will let >us manipulate you. You will beg for more. This is coming to you from our >Internet. Capitalism is successful and good. You are irrelevant. We own >you. We own everything you have. We own everything you think. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 10:26:46 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: Re: Empire In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit just getting to this after what seems like some missread..but maybe that was the point.... but this is wonderfullllll... kari On Friday, January 16, 2004, at 09:00 PM, Alan Sondheim wrote: > Empire > > > We are the first successful Empire in a century. We are the world's > first > and last Superpower. We are not Amerika or Amerikkka. We are America. > We > are proud of what we do. You are weak and we are strong. We are the > proudest people on earth. We own you. We control your economy through > our > own and through force. You are using our Internet. Your country exists > because we allow it to exist. We invented radio and television. We > invented the airplane and the automobile. We are the new people. We are > the freest people on earth. We are determined to protect ourselves > against > you. We control you. It doesn't matter what you think of us. It doesn't > matter what our people think of us. The Three Branches of Government > are > owned by us. The Three Branches of Government will do what we tell them > to. We are the Three Branches of Government. You can complain all you > want. You can think your country is yours. You can think whatever you > want. You will bark if we say bark. If you do not bark you are evil. If > you are evil we will destroy you. We will destroy you and your culture. > Our culture is Christian and good. We do not care if you are Godless. > We > do not care what you believe. We will give you democracy. We own your > banks. You will free trade with us. We will starve you if you do not > obey. > Your sports are stupid sports. Your songs are stupid songs. Your movies > are boring. Your television is backwards. You are infidels. We have > the > best sports. We really have the best sports. We will take what we want. > You are nothing. You have earthquakes and fires and volcanos. You have > flooding rivers and millions killed. You are living in the bad areas of > the world. Our country is God-Given. Our country will take what we > want. > Our soldiers are the most powerful who ever lived. Our planes will > bomb > you any time we want them to. Our military is perfect. There is no > destroying our country. The United States are stronger than any bomb. > We > are stronger than any disease. You are punished with disease. We will > let > you die if we want. We will take anything we want. We will sell you our > drugs. We are a great mixed salad of wealthy people. Our women are the > most beautiful in the world. Our men are the best athletes in the > world. > We are the wealthiest people on earth. We live longer than anyone else > on > earth. We deserve our lives. We deserve our wealth. We work harder than > anyone else for our wealth. Other people are lazy but we are not. Other > cultures are old but we are new. Other cultures are slow but we are > fast. > We will never be slow and we will always be new. We own the moon and > Mars. > We will own anything we want to own. Your words mean nothing. Your > books > mean nothing. Your ideologies mean nothing. We will do what we have to > do. > We have heard your stories over and over again and they are boring. The > Three Branches of Government will not listen to your complaints. The > Three > Branches of Government will take what they want, build what they want, > destroy what they want, kill what they want to kill. Your thinking is > irrelevant. Your words are irrelevant. The Three Branches of Government > are tired of listening to you. You talk and talk because we own > everything > you have. Your wars and revolutions are stupid. We will entertain you > with > our world of entertainment. You will buy our entertainment. You will > let > us manipulate you. You will beg for more. This is coming to you from > our > Internet. Capitalism is successful and good. You are irrelevant. We own > you. We own everything you have. We own everything you think. > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 13:51:41 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Craig Allen Conrad Subject: Re: Empire MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alan, thanks for posting this, it's great. CAConrad http://phillysound.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 14:07:51 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: Empire In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Frankly, I - in counter-empirial, paranoid mode - was initially suspicious - well, in old fashioned English Department crit terms- of the the over- the-top "mock ironic rant" of "the speaker." Certainly the seeming "inexhaustibility" of its triumphal measures connected it to Alan's usual accessibility to a surplus of resources and the redistribution of such. But. Impulsively, I suspected the possibility of an agent provocateur - sneaking through Alan's enormous informational networks - to take false advantage and demonically exploit the satiric model. Was the tirade met to set up a "you sucker" trap, wanting as many on this list as possible, to automatically fall for its righteousness, encouraging us to publicly declare unqualified allegiance for the cut of its blade. A clever strategy that would resolve itself by the possible (or not) sudden appearance of someone, say one of our resident xenophobic etc. conservative poets who will (or will not) come out of the Right's "anti-terrorist, Christian loving, Arab distrusting, didactic, repress everyone, more than potentially fascist aka anarchistic, what every you mostly say is an ad hominine attack, let's have a meaningful discussion woods?" Who will then shamelessly declare authorship and preen in pride of having publicly entrapped, exposed embarrassed as many of us as possible??? Somebody wouldn't do that, would they? In a time when paranoia or, preferably, "a just suspicion" is an entirely reasonable waking and/or sleeping strategy - particularly if you are a person of color or "other" sexual persuasion, am I alone here, or totally twisted to imagine such? Or am I becoming "brainless", too? S on 1/17/04 10:26 AM, kari edwards at terra1@SONIC.NET wrote: > just getting to this after what seems like some missread..but maybe > that was the point.... but this is wonderfullllll... > kari > On Friday, January 16, 2004, at 09:00 PM, Alan Sondheim wrote: > >> Empire >> >> >> We are the first successful Empire in a century. We are the world's >> first >> and last Superpower. We are not Amerika or Amerikkka. We are America. >> We >> are proud of what we do. You are weak and we are strong. We are the >> proudest people on earth. We own you. We control your economy through >> our >> own and through force. You are using our Internet. Your country exists >> because we allow it to exist. We invented radio and television. We >> invented the airplane and the automobile. We are the new people. We are >> the freest people on earth. We are determined to protect ourselves >> against >> you. We control you. It doesn't matter what you think of us. It doesn't >> matter what our people think of us. The Three Branches of Government >> are >> owned by us. The Three Branches of Government will do what we tell them >> to. We are the Three Branches of Government. You can complain all you >> want. You can think your country is yours. You can think whatever you >> want. You will bark if we say bark. If you do not bark you are evil. If >> you are evil we will destroy you. We will destroy you and your culture. >> Our culture is Christian and good. We do not care if you are Godless. >> We >> do not care what you believe. We will give you democracy. We own your >> banks. You will free trade with us. We will starve you if you do not >> obey. >> Your sports are stupid sports. Your songs are stupid songs. Your movies >> are boring. Your television is backwards. You are infidels. We have >> the >> best sports. We really have the best sports. We will take what we want. >> You are nothing. You have earthquakes and fires and volcanos. You have >> flooding rivers and millions killed. You are living in the bad areas of >> the world. Our country is God-Given. Our country will take what we >> want. >> Our soldiers are the most powerful who ever lived. Our planes will >> bomb >> you any time we want them to. Our military is perfect. There is no >> destroying our country. The United States are stronger than any bomb. >> We >> are stronger than any disease. You are punished with disease. We will >> let >> you die if we want. We will take anything we want. We will sell you our >> drugs. We are a great mixed salad of wealthy people. Our women are the >> most beautiful in the world. Our men are the best athletes in the >> world. >> We are the wealthiest people on earth. We live longer than anyone else >> on >> earth. We deserve our lives. We deserve our wealth. We work harder than >> anyone else for our wealth. Other people are lazy but we are not. Other >> cultures are old but we are new. Other cultures are slow but we are >> fast. >> We will never be slow and we will always be new. We own the moon and >> Mars. >> We will own anything we want to own. Your words mean nothing. Your >> books >> mean nothing. Your ideologies mean nothing. We will do what we have to >> do. >> We have heard your stories over and over again and they are boring. The >> Three Branches of Government will not listen to your complaints. The >> Three >> Branches of Government will take what they want, build what they want, >> destroy what they want, kill what they want to kill. Your thinking is >> irrelevant. Your words are irrelevant. The Three Branches of Government >> are tired of listening to you. You talk and talk because we own >> everything >> you have. Your wars and revolutions are stupid. We will entertain you >> with >> our world of entertainment. You will buy our entertainment. You will >> let >> us manipulate you. You will beg for more. This is coming to you from >> our >> Internet. Capitalism is successful and good. You are irrelevant. We own >> you. We own everything you have. We own everything you think. >> ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 17:12:32 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christine Murray Subject: Re: Empire MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Dear Alan, This sounds very familiar. Lemme think. Oh, hey, I know! It sounds just like Official Texas. Alan, you rock. Chris Murray http://texfiles.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 00:03:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: 3::Visions and Structure of Empire / most recent american friends of mine / 688 Qianzi Wen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII 3::Visions and Structure of Empire / most recent american friends of mine / 688 Qianzi Wen Visions and Structure of Empire America. of proud we of what we do. what You do. Amerika Amerikkka. or America. are proud are our Amerika not or Amerika manipulate more. beg This Amerikkka. You America. Amerikkka. proud Branches Three Government of owned them by The Christian care democracy. Godless. care Christian culture good. democracy. you banks. Christian is good. and think. God-Given. most any powerful most who soldiers Government. of can You complain can all trade Government. complain can all complain want. If Internet. country Your exists country because We Internet. think. you __ __ you time any want we Mars. and own. to words and listen not Our beautiful most men Our athletes best The Our most the powerful most who powerful songs. Superpower. last not are Amerika not Your mean There perfect. no is destroying We country. our United The States United stronger are than We United stronger States than culture. culture Our We the are first the successful We last and allow to it exist. to invented they again listen and flooding of rivers have stories your over any disease. any punished are let stupid are are Internet. our Your force. you. own control are fast. are never will be never no There are have We best want. backwards. have infidels. areas God-Given. world. automobile. people. areas bad world. the God-Given. is are but lazy athletes live wealthiest longer live wealthiest backwards. television infidels. television. it banks. free obey. great a mixed great salad bark say if bark. say If bark. evil. will die bark say we bark. say If think. to. you beautiful athletes else believe. Godless. give because Internet. using Your Internet. believe. democracy. bomb planes any bomb time believe. you give will coming Capitalism from best have really fires bark. evil. are evil are boring. are television Your successful the in century. a world's the and flooding millions and century. first We are first the are We first are complaints. build want, kill build kill. want, complaints. your want, they build anyone longer country because exists allow country. States country yours. is whatever control economy your cultures old fast. new. care not Godless. are deserve We lives. our wealth. our entertainment. destroy will culture. beautiful women men destroying no country. bomb. United of proud destroying want time but cultures not. fast. do to. tell Government. yours. can with trade drugs. sell great men mixed great are bad the else anyone deserve Other lives. anything entertainment. of buy will us our manipulate ever planes Our bomb will any everything stupid. evil evil. destroy good. culture. destroy Our for else Other wealth. lazy world's or and free with trade starve with sports starve us beg freest automobile. airplane new all is want. have. everything wars have. exist. radio invented television. radio fires earthquakes irrelevant. thinking tired killed. millions kill want, kill. to thinking Your weak earth. kill. complaints. listen think bark will if killed. millions living for harder Other for lazy slow but lazy not. force. through using lives. work wealth. harder work determined are living soldiers bad living last not Superpower. matter think you us. think military want military Our perfect. is your Our We culture Our mixed wealthy of women have fires and volcanos. more. coming This from matter Branches you new freest people. automobile. the new the new. never mean be never always be moon or not. are cultures fast. old are areas bad world. obey. free will trade free deserve wealth. ourselves It you. doesn't It matter airplane over stories again over irrelevant. Government own have. you wars Your television best own. Mars. words own. mean always will moon the owned Government them owned by them will by do owned will Government do will tell we them tell people earth. on own We you. own control We your people. new freest the backwards. is infidels. perfect. military There perfect. new. are slow powerful ever who lived. ever planes lived. protect against ourselves It against doesn't It protect determined ourselves disease. let protect to ourselves protect determined doesn't proudest our people proudest on stronger bomb. proudest people our on people earth. on own punished die let anything die sell doesn't you radio invented television. and airplane the really We take will nothing. are earthquakes revolutions and stupid. are entertain will world revolutions wars stupid. revolutions entertain salad mixed wealthy salad women wealthy soldiers songs movies songs. boring. movies strong. are sports. stupid songs sports. stupid movies Your sports. stupid songs Your songs. stupid boring. starve will obey. not sports Your words books stories again over they ideologies stories heard strong. weak proudest strong. our wealthiest successful a in century. a take really nothing. take earthquakes nothing. talk You everything than disease. drugs. punished stronger bomb. the live We longer live anyone than whatever if they ideologies books heard work We harder work think. __ __ think. complain want. you is through economy force. through else anyone through economy our through country Your exists tired are listening of irrelevant. listening tired talk listening kill thinking talk to it exist. to invented We always Mars. moon us buy manipulate Capitalism beg ever who lived. us. Three The Branches Three Government to. volcanos. killed. flooding first in Empire a in volcanos. rivers flooding millions rivers want, what of we what do. we You do. weak are old slow what think you us. of The us. Three economy your will more. for This more. coming is from us words books Your ideologies Your heard against world entertain entertainment. world buy using world's last and Superpower. you Capitalism you anything take sell will drugs. the will tell you. your control give banks. sports obey. yours. is whatever evil bark allow we it allow __ most recent american friends of mine 11:43AM up 13 days, 21:28, 62 users, load averages: 0.51, 0.74, 0.91 USER TTY FROM LOGIN@ IDLE WHAT medawar p0 h-68-167-21-171. 12:39AM 0 -tcsh dac p1 bgm-66-24-162-11 Fri10AM 23:19 -tcsh aringsta p2 adsl-216-158-41- Fri05PM 18:15 -tcsh xuanmai p3 24-29-152-179.ny 10:51AM 0 - jolomo p4 adsl-223-81-86.a 1:45AM 9:29 -zsh sterno p5 167-78.nyc.dsl.a 5:00AM 0 elm adina p6 FREDERICK-A-PARK 10:38AM 0 emacs nicajg p7 162.33.198.11 5:54AM 0 lynx adane p8 pool-64-222-32-1 11:06AM 0 - unixgi p9 c-24-0-121-131.c Fri10AM 0 - dp pa pool-68-161-220- 10:55AM 0 pine -i hoxley pb h009083f10ccb.ne 10:30AM 0 tin isa pd briac.net1.nerim Wed06PM 17:02 -tcsh rex pe pool-141-157-214 Fri08AM 1:47 - dcl pf adsl-68-21-183-1 11:13AM 0 -zsh task ph ool-182e2084.dyn 7:41AM 0 -bash catling pi dsl254-020-196.s Fri10PM 11:07 pine -z michals pj chello0621790362 11:19AM 0 - rmcgee pl user-uivenr6.dsl 10:58AM 0 /usr/loca rbf pm ip68-13-52-249.o Sat12PM 11:07 -tcsh hood pn pool-68-237-112- 10:18AM 1:08 -bash shalla po firewall1.Lehman 10:57AM 0 mutt joelg pp user-10mt3p5.cab 10:58AM 0 - dannyb pq 24-193-79-106.ny Fri11PM 1:47 /usr/loca ixl pr fearn.pair.com Fri08AM 0 trn4 -B - mittle ps dialin-527-tnt.n 11:00AM 0 emacs-20. dberns pt - Tue12PM 34:37 -tcsh barrys pu 216-99-207-162.c Mon02PM 7:12 -tcsh dannyb pv - 06Jan04 11:07 /usr/loca mpollak q0 coretel2-37.dyna 11:29AM 0 - shino q1 ool-4353a7ff.dyn Wed07PM 1:47 mutt kuper q3 host241-117.pool 11:23AM 0 emacs jpk q4 dsl254-102-129.n 06Jan04 1day -zsh mkc q7 CPE-65-26-117-14 1:24AM 0 -bash jonzonk q8 ool-44c085d0.dyn 11:09AM 0 - jaco q9 p67-40.acedsl.co Fri07PM 9:29 vim curri klh qb adsl-209-233-18- 03Jan04 0 mm ebuda qc bedford.lex.arbo Thu02PM 19:46 -tcsh dac qe bgm-66-24-162-77 Fri12AM 0 - brhodes qf ool-18b8766f.dyn Thu11PM 9:29 pine -i barrys qg 216-99-207-162.c Sun05PM 1:47 irc -d ba miriam qh 162.33.198.11 11:12AM 0 - danlevy qi 167-11.nyc.dsl.a 11:37AM 0 pine -i ericsr qj pm1.nyc.access.n 11:16AM 0 lynx http jolomo qk atl190.turner.co Wed09AM 18:34 -zsh drogers ql fw.44w.riskmetri Fri05PM 17:02 -bash dac qm bgm-66-24-162-77 Fri12AM 9:29 -tcsh fizz qn c-24-6-209-72.cl 11:20AM 0 -tcsh bsd qo bgp539625bgs.ewn 11:26AM 0 -bash dac qq bgm-66-24-162-11 Fri09AM 23:19 -tcsh sondheim qs pool-68-161-88-1 11:29AM 0 w tdbajus r8 24-193-38-19.nyc Fri12PM 17:23 - aringsta rd edmund.ssc.upenn 05Jan04 20:35 mutt anatoly rq piinbh6-x0.ms.co Mon12PM 22:04 - alexis s0 66-108-201-237.n Wed12PM 20:39 /usr/loca alsontra s2 c-24-14-245-78.c Fri02PM 1:47 - anthony sc 64-35-136-226.go Fri12PM 15:57 -zsh phrrngtn sg infra1.nyc.desha 08Jan04 1day -bash sethb si pinerivercapital Thu12PM 34:37 emacs lweith sl virgil.harborfun Fri02PM 19:46 - alexx sm dsl092-079-160.b Fri03PM 19:46 -tcsh vasee ft pool-162-83-141- 9:57AM 0 ftpd: poo __ 688 Qianzi Wen heaven earth black yellow heaven is black earth is yellow the cosmos the cosmos are vast a desolate wasteland the sun fills the moon fills the sun sets in the west it's dusk from to in the morning the constellations line up it's a measure word they spread out cold comes the heat goes in autumn the harvesting in winter the hiding concealing intercalary timing the leftover residue becomes one tenth measurement of years so the lu bamboo pitches shift position open clouds ascend galloping sending rain dew forms becoming frost gold gives birth beautiful water jade emanates out from un mountain summit the doubleedged dagger furiously named the huge gatetower the pearl called the light of darkness the treasure of fruit plum apple many vegetables mustard ginger the sea salted the rivers fresh fishscales hidden in depths feathers circling above the fire dragon the emperor teaching the phoenix the royal official men beginning making writing characters then uniforms wearing robes clothing skirts clothing expel the throne yield the country yao tang has predicted console the people strike down the guilty hold the boundary talk and test with scalding trying a case at court query the way bequeath and bow doubting the sections love raise up the hosts the leaders minister prostrate the army barbarians near and far one reality ration of the guest returning to the emperor the phoenix cries in the bamboo the white colt grazes there change covers grass and weeds vegetation trust attain a myriad directions square covering the person issues giving birth to four great five is normal respect connector alone the rearing of children ! flattering destroys and injures women adore chastity unyielding men imitate pleasing genius know what passes the certainty of change attainment of ability never neglect deception the talk of the other is brief in disintegration reliance on the self selfreliance is long faith the cause of should be covered protect your faith the tool utensil of desire is trouble quantity measureword the ink of sorrow sadness on silk is printed sadness stains the silk poetry the praise of small lamb sheep sheep view scenery lines tied or linedup wisdom restraint conquering of study makes creates the sage benevolence is built the name stands the origin of shape proper upright model sky and valley proclaim one's fame the empty chamber hall public room learn review lessons carefully disaster catastrophe depends on is caused by the accumulation of evil blessings fortune are caused by virtuous happiness meter scale ruler bijade circular disk with hole negative un treasure meter measurement small yin shadow moon sexual organs feminine secret is just so to be emulated compete with the capital of the father parallels the business affairs of the supreme ruler speak strictly accurately give respect filial piety serves as accepts the end of power the power of others devotion follows rules the end of life face meet confront the deep tread put on shoes lightly dawn early in the morning prosper warm and pure like an orchids this fragrance like a pines this prospers the river flows not un stopping ceaselessly the depths abyss clear transparent take up create a reflection contain form and stop if one is thinking say diction classical rhetoric with quiet peaceful determination deliberate beginnings sincerity fidelity beautiful beauty prudent all good ancient laws honorable trade the place of foundation the rolls greatly nothing in the end learn outstanding ascend to official service in addition to work obey government survive by means of the wild pear go and increase the chant music particularly is precious and humble rites as well are valuable and low above harmony below harmonious the husband chants calls upon the wife follows the external foreign accept pass on instructions enter the internal music play music the mother of appearance ceremony all father's sister father's older brother father's younger brother like the same as a child compared to a son child think very much of each other elder brother younger brother agreeing as mind ch'i spirit linking joining branches make friends join and divide cut and polish precepts and rules kind humanity conceal compassion create order not separation integrity justice gives back honesty the wicked suffer setbacks loss of money a still nature evades passion the heart moves the weary mind guard the truth with full intention follow the idea and change your heart mind hold strictly steer properly please the rank of office bind yourself city and village flourish in the summer east and west two capitals one's back to the ong mountain face the uo river floating ei river according to seize the ing heu river the official government hall a tray with plum blossoms strong fragrance from the tower watch look out as if flying be amazed drawing painting draw paint birds and animals pictures colorful immortals hermits and spirits the third stem give alms cottage abandon drawn near beside awaken disclosure the first stem a curtain notebook album against answer reply the pillar four wantonly bamboo mats establish a place drum play the lute string se blow the sheng mouth reed instrument climb the stairs accept the high steps of the throne the cap changes distrust the stars the right direction passes through a broad interior the left attains holds brightness already gathering the tomb ceremony again assembles a group of flowers a withered peartree is faithful bells chimes to liscript servant lacquered write on wall lining the classics jing the government bureaus skeins command together mutually the path of the ancient swordsman the scholar tree minister of state doors sealed eight of the counties homes allowed for salary of one thousand soldiers troops the tall crown follows the palanquin drive the wheel hubs shake the tassels the world grants allowance luxury and wealth harness the vehicle palanquin prosper quickly policy merits profusion of the truths reality engrave the monument inscribe the inscription artist's signature tributary of ei small stream that one an offiial rank head of ei the assistant subordinate sometimes flatters sometimes judges under cover of home injustice abundant early minute dawn who is conducting business gravemarking post prince uke uan regulated the fit harmony help the weak assist help up the falling leaning figured beautiful cloth wraps around the an hinese blessing four kindnesses speech and emotion of the warrior man population the superior man does things thoroughly and with urgency regulates important matters of tate many scholars just so really peaceful tranquil in and hu change supremacy hao and ei surrounded placed east to west the false road way destroyed uo trample the earth join the alliance nterrogative particle how do you abide by promises according to legal principles the an abuse troubled they were punished rise up exterminate quite the magistrates shepherds employ the army with the utmost skill proclaim announce your might power across the desert galloping reputation gallops across reds and blues painting nine provinces emperor u marked one hundred prefectures in merged ie they were enlarged mountain ancestral is exalted ai meditation ch'an en lord master chief speaks from the in the arbor ild oose ate and the reat all purple pass the chicken field and the bare scarlet city walls city lder rother ond and peak stone great open country and ong ing ake wilderness vast spacious distant continuous and remote cliff and cave mountain dim and obscure and deep obscure netherworld government rooted in regard to agriculture devote one's efforts to now sow and reap gather harvest begin the year to carry in the south mu about acres my artful planting of glutinous millet and millet taxes in the ripe grain tribute in the new grain to develop reward dismiss expel and ascend encius engke honest simple plain historian u grasps straightforward closest to octrine of the ean iddle ay toil modestly cautiously the ch'in stringed instrument good and wonderful question or problem gate grammatical predicates help assist er helper where particle exclamatory or interrogative particle interrogative particle as well _ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 00:03:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Tao: Collaboration between Reiner Strasser and Alan Sondheim MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Tao Collaboration between Reiner Strasser and Alan Sondheim http://nonfinito.de/tao/ or http://www.asondheim.org/tao/ __ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 00:09:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: europe 1915 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII http://www.asondheim.org/oooo.mov europe 1915 it is waiting _ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 21:20:27 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Susan M. Schultz" Subject: Tinfish smells! Comments: cc: sschultz@hawaii.edu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tinfish Press is pleased to announce the publication of _Philter_, by Normie Salvador; this is our first chapbook that comes saturated with perfume (get them while the scent lasts!). Salvador is a poet who lives in Waipahu, Hawai`i and writes rather like a pre-Raphaelite; in the essay included in this chapbook he describes himself as a "cane spider," or "a local writer experimenting with literary boundaries." The book is designed by Jeff Sanner. Buy _Philter_ for $8. Also available are Deborah Meadows's _from A Theory of Subjectivity in Moby-Dick_ ($10); Zhang Er and Bob Holman (trans.), _Carved Water_ ($8) and soon to come, Susan M. Schultz's _No Guns, No Durian_ ($7) and _The Prison Poems of Ho Chi Minh_, translated by Steve Bradbury ($10). for more details, see http://maven.english.hawaii.edu/tinfish aloha, Susan ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 10:23:12 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Fwd: 4'33" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit [Last week I posted about Cage's 4'33" being played by the BBC orchestra. The following message suggests that after 40 years not much has changed. -mIEKAL] Begin forwarded message: > From: "Clemens Gresser" > Date: Sun Jan 18, 2004 12:55:38 AM US/Pacific > To: silence List > Subject: Re: 4'33" > Reply-To: c.gresser@gmx.net > > Good morning Silencers, > >> Charles.E.Hamm@Dartmouth.EDU (Charles E. Hamm) >> BBC America (TV) had a segment last night on the performance of 4'33" >> during the ongoing Barbican concerts. It was done by an orchestra: >> there were several shots of ranks of instrumentalists sitting quietly. >> Comments by the presenter and several people involved were fairly >> inane, but, hey, it isn't every day that Cage shows up on >> international TV. > > I was there, and just before I go to the festival again: > I am not sure that it was a very good performance of the 'silent > piece': > 1. The orchestra members didn't have the proper score (they were using > 'ugly PC > generated' performance scores: i.e. 3 pages, on each page 'Movement x' > + "Tacet'; > couldn't they have used the three-paged Tudor/Woodstock score?). > 2. It was actually a performance done by conductor, not by orchestra; > apart from > moving the pages the musicians weren't involved (and I mean this in > two senses!) at > all; most of them looked bored or even annoyed. > > Yesterday, in Atlas Eclipticalis' performance some of them kept > constantly smiling or a > few even (loudlessly) giggled. There remains a good deal to be done to > make > 'professional' orchestra musicians a bit less conservative and narrow > minded!!! > > Best wishes, > Clemens > > c.gresser@gmx.net > http://www.soton.ac.uk/~cgresser ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 16:28:19 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Josh Robinson Subject: Re: Fwd: 4'33" In-Reply-To: <6005DB76-49E3-11D8-B973-0003935A5BDA@mwt.net> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit inane trivia no 582: i saw a world premier of 4'33" - it was the first performance on a baroque 'cello. On Sun, 2004-01-18 at 18:23, mIEKAL aND wrote: > [Last week I posted about Cage's 4'33" being played by the BBC > orchestra. The following message suggests that after 40 years not much > has changed. -mIEKAL] > > Begin forwarded message: > > > From: "Clemens Gresser" > > Date: Sun Jan 18, 2004 12:55:38 AM US/Pacific > > To: silence List > > Subject: Re: 4'33" > > Reply-To: c.gresser@gmx.net > > > > Good morning Silencers, > > > >> Charles.E.Hamm@Dartmouth.EDU (Charles E. Hamm) > >> BBC America (TV) had a segment last night on the performance of 4'33" > >> during the ongoing Barbican concerts. It was done by an orchestra: > >> there were several shots of ranks of instrumentalists sitting quietly. > >> Comments by the presenter and several people involved were fairly > >> inane, but, hey, it isn't every day that Cage shows up on > >> international TV. > > > > I was there, and just before I go to the festival again: > > I am not sure that it was a very good performance of the 'silent > > piece': > > 1. The orchestra members didn't have the proper score (they were using > > 'ugly PC > > generated' performance scores: i.e. 3 pages, on each page 'Movement x' > > + "Tacet'; > > couldn't they have used the three-paged Tudor/Woodstock score?). > > 2. It was actually a performance done by conductor, not by orchestra; > > apart from > > moving the pages the musicians weren't involved (and I mean this in > > two senses!) at > > all; most of them looked bored or even annoyed. > > > > Yesterday, in Atlas Eclipticalis' performance some of them kept > > constantly smiling or a > > few even (loudlessly) giggled. There remains a good deal to be done to > > make > > 'professional' orchestra musicians a bit less conservative and narrow > > minded!!! > > > > Best wishes, > > Clemens > > > > c.gresser@gmx.net > > http://www.soton.ac.uk/~cgresser ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 11:53:03 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: Fwd: 4'33" In-Reply-To: <1074443298.7746.10.camel@jmr59.quns.cam.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hmm, this must have been the anachronism du jour--sort of like playing Rachmaninoff on a harpsichord. { inane trivia no 582: i saw a world premier of 4'33" - it was the first { performance on a baroque 'cello. Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard@earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard The Sonnet Project: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/The%20Sonnet%20Project.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 12:02:44 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: call for submissions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello everyone, It's time for Blackbox's winter gallery. This go around I'm looking only for text poetry and prose -- no pictures. Just trying to keep it interesting and varied. Please backchannel your submissions as attachments or in the body of your e-mail. As always, I thank you for considering Blackbox -- and a special thanks to all those who have contributed in the past and will no doubt be represented again in the future. For those of you who have yet to check out Koja Press' online gallery, go to WilliamJamesAustin.com and follow the Blackbox link. Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com kojapress.com amazon.com b&n.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 13:17:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: noah eli gordon Subject: discrepancy between the amount of men and women in current poetry journals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Being in that domestically unsettling phase of student life and--to be quite honest-- purposefully stringing out such a phase for upwards of a decade, what with “graduate” and undergraduate work, my Post Office Box address has outlived many shared apartments and houses. It’s the more tactile end of the connection to my personal imagined community of poets, publishers and editors, making the short walk between my current apartment and the Post Office, along with morning coffee, one of those routine defining rituals I simultaneously can’t seem to shake and wouldn’t want to. It makes Sundays like this one a real drag! Yesterday’s plunder (isn’t “physical” mail always a treasure?) included the latest issue of Fence magazine, of which I read the following pieces in the following order: Max Winter’s tempered and compelling editorial response to the less compelling and unrestrained polemic of Joan Houlihan’s comments in her recent Boston Comment column; the wonderful exchange between Alice Notley and Edmund Berrigan; Robert Paredez’s poems; the reading list/contributor’s notes pages. I didn’t pick the magazine up again until much later that evening, after my partner, the poet Sara Veglahn, had perused it’s pages for a while. When I did return to it, the first thing she said was, “There are 29 men and 14 women in that issue.” In the interest of full self-disclosure, it was something I hadn’t noticed, which, perhaps, is representative of much of the problem; if one’s in the position of –what? privilege? dominance? power? (although not the statistical “majority”!)—one is granted the luxury of blissful ignorance, which constitutes a form of passive-sexism. Okay, so I’ve got to check myself! Sara and I talked a bit about why such a discrepancy exists—do more men submit to journals?—and decided to look more closely (for me at least) at some of the current issues of different journals we have in our home. What follows then is a break-down of gender as best as we could figure out. Conscious of the myriad issues involved when discussing gender, and those that arose via our exploration, we based our assumptions—however flawed they are—on either the pronouns used in contributor’s notes or our understanding of the relationship between the writer’s first name the gender it signifies. Of course, this is problematic—what if folks self-identify differently, what about transgendered individuals, etc?? We did as best as we could and were often unable to decided. Ultimately we left a column for “unclear”. We also decided to leave out all of the various translators—hey, this aint a paper or anything, just two poets trying to figure some things out. Here’s our rough and flawed breakdown: Journals with more men than women: Fence v6 n2: men 29/ women 14 Kiosk 2: men 16/ women 7 New American Writing 21: men 31/ women 17/ unclear 2 Jubilat 7: men 16/ women 6/ unclear 1 Chicago Review v49 n2: men 19/ women 5 Fulcrum 2: around 50 men and 10 women Colorado Review v30 n3: men 16/ women 12/ unclear 3 Shiny 12: men 29/ women 11/ unclear 1 New Review of Literature 1: men 20/ women 11/ unclear 1 The Canary 2: men 34/ women 17 3rd bed 8: men 18/ women 14/ unclear 2 Magazine Cypress 2: men 13/ women 6 6X6 7: men 4/ women 2 Chain 9: men 42/ women 25/ unclear 9 Verse v19 n3-v20 n1: men 61/ women 20/ unclear 4 Crowd 2: men 26/ women 17/ unclear 1 American Letters and Commentary 14: men 34/ women 29/ unclear 1 Lungfull 12: men 25/ women 16/ unclear 1 Aufgabe 2: men 27/ women 19 Antennae 5: men 12/ women 5 Baffling Combustions 3 (our now-defunct journal): men 5/ women 4 Best of American Poetry 2002: men 49/ women 26 Journals with even numbers: Conjunctions 40 The Ixnay Reader 2003 Columbia 38 Journals with more women than men: Hanging Loose 83: women 20/ men 15/ unclear 1 Factorial 2: women 16/ men 9 Pom Pom 4: women 23/ men 11/ unclear 1 26 issue B: women 22/ men 17 No 2: women 15/ men 9/ unclear 1 So here is a question to the larger poetry community: why is this the case? _________________________________________________________________ Find high-speed ‘net deals — comparison-shop your local providers here. https://broadband.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 13:45:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mairead Byrne Subject: Re: discrepancy between the amount of men and women in current poetryjournals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Nice work, Noah. We live in a patriarchal society. Your figures and all figures relating to male/female ratios regarding = resources and representation reflect that. The poetry business is very = patriarchal. I left Ireland partly for that reason. I didn't expect = poetry in the U.S. to be necessarily less patriarchal but I did expect = (and got) a greater range of poetries. It's a hard life. We also live in = a racist society. But none of this is news.=20 Mairead www.maireadbyrne.blogspot.com >>> noaheligordon@HOTMAIL.COM 01/18/04 13:18 PM >>> Being in that domestically unsettling phase of student life and--to be = quite honest-- purposefully stringing out such a phase for upwards of a decade, what with =F4graduate=F6 and undergraduate work, my Post Office Box = address has outlived many shared apartments and houses. It=C6s the more tactile end of = the connection to my personal imagined community of poets, publishers and editors, making the short walk between my current apartment and the Post Office, along with morning coffee, one of those routine defining rituals I simultaneously can=C6t seem to shake and wouldn=C6t want to. It makes = Sundays like this one a real drag! Yesterday=C6s plunder (isn=C6t =F4physical=F6 = mail always a treasure?) included the latest issue of Fence magazine, of which = I read the following pieces in the following order: Max Winter=C6s tempered = and compelling editorial response to the less compelling and unrestrained polemic of Joan Houlihan=C6s comments in her recent Boston Comment column; = the wonderful exchange between Alice Notley and Edmund Berrigan; Robert Paredez=C6s poems; the reading list/contributor=C6s notes pages. I = didn=C6t pick the magazine up again until much later that evening, after my partner, the poet Sara Veglahn, had perused it=C6s pages for a while. When I did return = to it, the first thing she said was, =F4There are 29 men and 14 women in that issue.=F6 In the interest of full self-disclosure, it was something I = hadn=C6t noticed, which, perhaps, is representative of much of the problem; if = one=C6s in the position of =FBwhat? privilege? dominance? power? (although not the statistical =F4majority=F6!)=F9one is granted the luxury of blissful = ignorance, which constitutes a form of passive-sexism. Okay, so I=C6ve got to check myself! Sara and I talked a bit about why such a discrepancy exists=F9do = more men submit to journals?=F9and decided to look more closely (for me at = least) at some of the current issues of different journals we have in our home. What follows then is a break-down of gender as best as we could figure = out. Conscious of the myriad issues involved when discussing gender, and those that arose via our exploration, we based our assumptions=F9however flawed = they are=F9on either the pronouns used in contributor=C6s notes or our = understanding of the relationship between the writer=C6s first name the gender it = signifies. Of course, this is problematic=F9what if folks self-identify differently, = what about transgendered individuals, etc?? We did as best as we could and = were often unable to decided. Ultimately we left a column for =F4unclear=F6. We = also decided to leave out all of the various translators=F9hey, this aint a = paper or anything, just two poets trying to figure some things out. Here=C6s our rough and flawed breakdown: Journals with more men than women: Fence v6 n2: men 29/ women 14 Kiosk 2: men 16/ women 7 New American Writing 21: men 31/ women 17/ unclear 2 Jubilat 7: men 16/ women 6/ unclear 1 Chicago Review v49 n2: men 19/ women 5 Fulcrum 2: around 50 men and 10 women Colorado Review v30 n3: men 16/ women 12/ unclear 3 Shiny 12: men 29/ women 11/ unclear 1 New Review of Literature 1: men 20/ women 11/ unclear 1 The Canary 2: men 34/ women 17 3rd bed 8: men 18/ women 14/ unclear 2 Magazine Cypress 2: men 13/ women 6 6X6 7: men 4/ women 2 Chain 9: men 42/ women 25/ unclear 9 Verse v19 n3-v20 n1: men 61/ women 20/ unclear 4 Crowd 2: men 26/ women 17/ unclear 1 American Letters and Commentary 14: men 34/ women 29/ unclear 1 Lungfull 12: men 25/ women 16/ unclear 1 Aufgabe 2: men 27/ women 19 Antennae 5: men 12/ women 5 Baffling Combustions 3 (our now-defunct journal): men 5/ women 4 Best of American Poetry 2002: men 49/ women 26 Journals with even numbers: Conjunctions 40 The Ixnay Reader 2003 Columbia 38 Journals with more women than men: Hanging Loose 83: women 20/ men 15/ unclear 1 Factorial 2: women 16/ men 9 Pom Pom 4: women 23/ men 11/ unclear 1 26 issue B: women 22/ men 17 No 2: women 15/ men 9/ unclear 1 So here is a question to the larger poetry community: why is this the case? _________________________________________________________________ Find high-speed =E6net deals =F9 comparison-shop your local providers = here. https://broadband.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 14:06:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: shanna compton Subject: Re: discrepancy between the amount of men and women in current poetry journals In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Tony Tost had an interesting post up about this not too long ago at his blog. Unfortunately it was one of his "disappearing entries." But Reb Livingston and I both responded. We both cringed at the idea of special "all-female issues." Lots of people will disagree I'm sure, but I always wrinkle my nose at that kind of treatment. It often makes sense for to collect ethnic and foreign language poetries and even regional collections make some sense (southern poets, for example). Divisions by age groups can also be interesting (fiction writers under 35, for instance). I think what Jackie Sheeler did with poetry by and about the police was really cool. As a woman who happens to be the editor of a journal (as well as one among several editors at a small press), I think about this a lot. I have to say, we simply get a lot more submissions from men. I don't know why. And even though our staff at LIT is primarily female, we often (though not always) have more men than women in a given issue. I've decided not to worry about it too much. Others have remarked on the discrepancy in blogging too. An natural extension of this observation is to ask myself if I have ever felt excluded from a journal or reading series or other literary endeavor because I was a woman, and the answer (or my answer at least) is no. on 1/18/04 1:17 PM, noah eli gordon at noaheligordon@HOTMAIL.COM wrote: > Being in that domestically unsettling phase of student life and--to be qu= ite > honest-- purposefully stringing out such a phase for upwards of a decade, > what with =93graduate=94 and undergraduate work, my Post Office Box address h= as > outlived many shared apartments and houses. It=92s the more tactile end of = the > connection to my personal imagined community of poets, publishers and > editors, making the short walk between my current apartment and the Post > Office, along with morning coffee, one of those routine defining rituals = I > simultaneously can=92t seem to shake and wouldn=92t want to. It makes Sundays > like this one a real drag! Yesterday=92s plunder (isn=92t =93physical=94 mail > always a treasure?) included the latest issue of Fence magazine, of which= I > read the following pieces in the following order: Max Winter=92s tempered a= nd > compelling editorial response to the less compelling and unrestrained > polemic of Joan Houlihan=92s comments in her recent Boston Comment column; = the > wonderful exchange between Alice Notley and Edmund Berrigan; Robert > Paredez=92s poems; the reading list/contributor=92s notes pages. I didn=92t pic= k > the magazine up again until much later that evening, after my partner, th= e > poet Sara Veglahn, had perused it=92s pages for a while. When I did return = to > it, the first thing she said was, =93There are 29 men and 14 women in that > issue.=94 In the interest of full self-disclosure, it was something I hadn=92= t > noticed, which, perhaps, is representative of much of the problem; if one= =92s > in the position of =96what? privilege? dominance? power? (although not the > statistical =93majority=94!)=97one is granted the luxury of blissful ignorance, > which constitutes a form of passive-sexism. Okay, so I=92ve got to check > myself! Sara and I talked a bit about why such a discrepancy exists=97do mo= re > men submit to journals?=97and decided to look more closely (for me at least= ) > at some of the current issues of different journals we have in our home. > What follows then is a break-down of gender as best as we could figure ou= t. > Conscious of the myriad issues involved when discussing gender, and those > that arose via our exploration, we based our assumptions=97however flawed t= hey > are=97on either the pronouns used in contributor=92s notes or our understandi= ng > of the relationship between the writer=92s first name the gender it signifi= es. > Of course, this is problematic=97what if folks self-identify differently, w= hat > about transgendered individuals, etc?? We did as best as we could and we= re > often unable to decided. Ultimately we left a column for =93unclear=94. We al= so > decided to leave out all of the various translators=97hey, this aint a pape= r > or anything, just two poets trying to figure some things out. Here=92s our > rough and flawed breakdown: >=20 > Journals with more men than women: >=20 > Fence v6 n2: men 29/ women 14 > Kiosk 2: men 16/ women 7 > New American Writing 21: men 31/ women 17/ unclear 2 > Jubilat 7: men 16/ women 6/ unclear 1 > Chicago Review v49 n2: men 19/ women 5 > Fulcrum 2: around 50 men and 10 women > Colorado Review v30 n3: men 16/ women 12/ unclear 3 > Shiny 12: men 29/ women 11/ unclear 1 > New Review of Literature 1: men 20/ women 11/ unclear 1 > The Canary 2: men 34/ women 17 > 3rd bed 8: men 18/ women 14/ unclear 2 > Magazine Cypress 2: men 13/ women 6 > 6X6 7: men 4/ women 2 > Chain 9: men 42/ women 25/ unclear 9 > Verse v19 n3-v20 n1: men 61/ women 20/ unclear 4 > Crowd 2: men 26/ women 17/ unclear 1 > American Letters and Commentary 14: men 34/ women 29/ unclear 1 > Lungfull 12: men 25/ women 16/ unclear 1 > Aufgabe 2: men 27/ women 19 > Antennae 5: men 12/ women 5 > Baffling Combustions 3 (our now-defunct journal): men 5/ women 4 > Best of American Poetry 2002: men 49/ women 26 >=20 > Journals with even numbers: >=20 > Conjunctions 40 > The Ixnay Reader 2003 > Columbia 38 >=20 > Journals with more women than men: >=20 > Hanging Loose 83: women 20/ men 15/ unclear 1 > Factorial 2: women 16/ men 9 > Pom Pom 4: women 23/ men 11/ unclear 1 > 26 issue B: women 22/ men 17 > No 2: women 15/ men 9/ unclear 1 >=20 >=20 > So here is a question to the larger poetry community: >=20 > why is this the case? >=20 > _________________________________________________________________ > Find high-speed =91net deals =97 comparison-shop your local providers here. > https://broadband.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 11:08:34 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: elen gebreab Subject: FW: INFO: speculative literature foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>INFO: speculative literature foundation ================================ Speculative Literature Foundation (SLF) -- FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE -- January 2004 We are delighted to announce the official launch of the Speculative Literature Foundation (www.speculativeliterature.org), with our mission "to promote literary quality in speculative fiction, by encouraging promising new writers, assisting established writers, facilitating the work of quality magazines and small presses in the genre, and developing a greater public appreciation of speculative fiction." We hope to accomplish this by creating a free comprehensive resource website, by developing materials for outreach to schools and libraries, and by raising funds to redistribute as grants and awards for quality work by individuals and organizations. The first award we will present will be the 2003 SLF Fountain Award, $1000 in prize money for excellence in short fiction. A select jury will accept nominations from magazine and anthology editors, and announce the winner and honorable mentions on June 1st, 2004. (For more details, including nomination guidelines, please see our website.) The foundation is supported by annual membership fees, and we encourage all those who read, write, and generally appreciate speculative fiction (by which term we mean to encompass the broad range of fantastic literature, from hard sf to sword and sorcery to magical realism to slipstream) to stop by our site, take a look at the resources we offer, and consider joining as supporting members. Your membership fees will go directly towards the ongoing development of grants and awards to reward literary excellence in the genre; we're also pleased to welcome new volunteers to our staff. For more information on what the Foundation offers, please visit our comprehensive website and take advantage of our extensive (and growing) set of free resources geared towards the needs of readers, academics, editors and writers. Thank you for your time, and again, you can find us at: http://www.speculativeliterature.org - Mary Anne Mohanraj Director, SLF ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 11:51:33 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: discrepancy between the amount of men and women in current poetryjournals In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mairead: I think "the poetry business is very patriarchal" may be too easy= =20 an answer (to the extent it can be called a business at all). As Noah=20 suggests, there are variables that are difficult to account for. You ask,=20 for instance, whether men and women submit to journals in roughly the same= =20 numbers. I can say that overwhelmingly more men submit manuscripts to=20 Junction Press than women (this is not an invitation to submit--I'm not=20 reading anything new for the next two years). Here are a few more things=20 worth checking: correlation of gender of editor to gender content, relative= =20 numbers broken down into age groups of both editors and poets (i.e. are=20 things changing?), and a check of the more powerful mainstream publications= =20 (the ones that pay contributors). Also a look at publications from say 20=20 years ago. As a control, an interesting exercise would be to check whether= =20 the same disparity exists among fiction writers. And there's the question=20 of whether the journals explicitly devoted to women's writing siphon off=20 submissions by poets who would otherwise be published in the journals Noah= =20 looked at. A complex issue to investigate. Another fun thing to check would be the comparative numbers of women and=20 men teaching in MFA programs, again broken down by age and genre. By way of contrast, the gender disparity in my Baja California anthology,=20 Across the Line/Al otro lado (38 men and 14 women), inspired no comment in= =20 Baja, despite the strongly feminist views of some of the women. When I=20 asked some of the women what they felt about the disparity, universally the= =20 answer was that fewer women in Baja write poetry. Of the usual complaints=20 about the absence of this or that poet, only three have been mentioned to=20 me (and only one in print), all of them men. My coeditor Harry Polkinhorn=20 and I were very conscious of the issue but were finally limited in our=20 selection by the choices available. In the brief time since the anthology=20 came out a new press run by young women poets has appeared. Not explicitly= =20 dedicated to women's writing, it has thus far only published women. And an= =20 explicitly women's only quarterly broadsheet has also started up. Both=20 receive government funding, which is commonplace in Mexico. The writers=20 published so far are very young. It's impossible to predict careers, but at= =20 least three of them have begun writing very well. All of the older and more= =20 powerful local publishers, all organs of local, state, or federal=20 government cultural agencies, are run by women, as are the agencies=20 themselves, for the worst possible reason: when the present government came= =20 to power it promised that 30% of all appointees would be women; it=20 fulfilled that promise by giving women all of the cultural posts and almost= =20 none of the political, judicial or policy posts. Mark At 01:45 PM 1/18/2004 -0500, Mairead Byrne wrote: >Nice work, Noah. We live in a patriarchal society. >Your figures and all figures relating to male/female ratios regarding=20 >resources and representation reflect that. The poetry business is very=20 >patriarchal. I left Ireland partly for that reason. I didn't expect=20 >poetry in the U.S. to be necessarily less patriarchal but I did expect=20 >(and got) a greater range of poetries. It's a hard life. We also live in= =20 >a racist society. But none of this is news. >Mairead > >www.maireadbyrne.blogspot.com > >>> noaheligordon@HOTMAIL.COM 01/18/04 13:18 PM >>> >Being in that domestically unsettling phase of student life and--to be= quite >honest-- purposefully stringing out such a phase for upwards of a decade, >what with =F4graduate=F6 and undergraduate work, my Post Office Box address= has >outlived many shared apartments and houses. It=C6s the more tactile end of= the >connection to my personal imagined community of poets, publishers and >editors, making the short walk between my current apartment and the Post >Office, along with morning coffee, one of those routine defining rituals I >simultaneously can=C6t seem to shake and wouldn=C6t want to. It makes= Sundays >like this one a real drag! Yesterday=C6s plunder (isn=C6t =F4physical=F6= mail >always a treasure?) included the latest issue of Fence magazine, of which I >read the following pieces in the following order: Max Winter=C6s tempered= and >compelling editorial response to the less compelling and unrestrained >polemic of Joan Houlihan=C6s comments in her recent Boston Comment column;= the >wonderful exchange between Alice Notley and Edmund Berrigan; Robert >Paredez=C6s poems; the reading list/contributor=C6s notes pages. I didn=C6t= pick >the magazine up again until much later that evening, after my partner, the >poet Sara Veglahn, had perused it=C6s pages for a while. When I did return= to >it, the first thing she said was, =F4There are 29 men and 14 women in that >issue.=F6 In the interest of full self-disclosure, it was something I= hadn=C6t >noticed, which, perhaps, is representative of much of the problem; if one= =C6s >in the position of =FBwhat? privilege? dominance? power? (although not the >statistical =F4majority=F6!)=F9one is granted the luxury of blissful= ignorance, >which constitutes a form of passive-sexism. Okay, so I=C6ve got to check >myself! Sara and I talked a bit about why such a discrepancy exists=F9do= more >men submit to journals?=F9and decided to look more closely (for me at= least) >at some of the current issues of different journals we have in our home. >What follows then is a break-down of gender as best as we could figure out. >Conscious of the myriad issues involved when discussing gender, and those >that arose via our exploration, we based our assumptions=F9however flawed= they >are=F9on either the pronouns used in contributor=C6s notes or our= understanding >of the relationship between the writer=C6s first name the gender it= signifies. >Of course, this is problematic=F9what if folks self-identify differently,= what >about transgendered individuals, etc?? We did as best as we could and were >often unable to decided. Ultimately we left a column for =F4unclear=F6. We= also >decided to leave out all of the various translators=F9hey, this aint a= paper >or anything, just two poets trying to figure some things out. Here=C6s our >rough and flawed breakdown: > >Journals with more men than women: > >Fence v6 n2: men 29/ women 14 >Kiosk 2: men 16/ women 7 >New American Writing 21: men 31/ women 17/ unclear 2 >Jubilat 7: men 16/ women 6/ unclear 1 >Chicago Review v49 n2: men 19/ women 5 >Fulcrum 2: around 50 men and 10 women >Colorado Review v30 n3: men 16/ women 12/ unclear 3 >Shiny 12: men 29/ women 11/ unclear 1 >New Review of Literature 1: men 20/ women 11/ unclear 1 >The Canary 2: men 34/ women 17 >3rd bed 8: men 18/ women 14/ unclear 2 >Magazine Cypress 2: men 13/ women 6 >6X6 7: men 4/ women 2 >Chain 9: men 42/ women 25/ unclear 9 >Verse v19 n3-v20 n1: men 61/ women 20/ unclear 4 >Crowd 2: men 26/ women 17/ unclear 1 >American Letters and Commentary 14: men 34/ women 29/ unclear 1 >Lungfull 12: men 25/ women 16/ unclear 1 >Aufgabe 2: men 27/ women 19 >Antennae 5: men 12/ women 5 >Baffling Combustions 3 (our now-defunct journal): men 5/ women 4 >Best of American Poetry 2002: men 49/ women 26 > >Journals with even numbers: > >Conjunctions 40 >The Ixnay Reader 2003 >Columbia 38 > >Journals with more women than men: > >Hanging Loose 83: women 20/ men 15/ unclear 1 >Factorial 2: women 16/ men 9 >Pom Pom 4: women 23/ men 11/ unclear 1 >26 issue B: women 22/ men 17 >No 2: women 15/ men 9/ unclear 1 > > >So here is a question to the larger poetry community: > >why is this the case? > >_________________________________________________________________ >Find high-speed =E6net deals =F9 comparison-shop your local providers here. >https://broadband.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 15:06:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Cross Subject: Re: discrepancy between the amount of men and women in current poetry journals In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit syllogism #5 Women: 20 Men: 17 Hurrah! Michael Quoting noah eli gordon : > Being in that domestically unsettling phase of student life and--to > be quite > honest-- purposefully stringing out such a phase for upwards of a > decade, > what with “graduate” and undergraduate work, my Post Office Box > address has > outlived many shared apartments and houses. It’s the more tactile end > of the > connection to my personal imagined community of poets, publishers and > editors, making the short walk between my current apartment and the > Post > Office, along with morning coffee, one of those routine defining > rituals I > simultaneously can’t seem to shake and wouldn’t want to. It makes > Sundays > like this one a real drag! Yesterday’s plunder (isn’t “physical” > mail > always a treasure?) included the latest issue of Fence magazine, of > which I > read the following pieces in the following order: Max Winter’s > tempered and > compelling editorial response to the less compelling and unrestrained > polemic of Joan Houlihan’s comments in her recent Boston Comment > column; the > wonderful exchange between Alice Notley and Edmund Berrigan; Robert > Paredez’s poems; the reading list/contributor’s notes pages. I didn’t > pick > the magazine up again until much later that evening, after my > partner, the > poet Sara Veglahn, had perused it’s pages for a while. When I did > return to > it, the first thing she said was, “There are 29 men and 14 women in > that > issue.” In the interest of full self-disclosure, it was something I > hadn’t > noticed, which, perhaps, is representative of much of the problem; if > one’s > in the position of –what? privilege? dominance? power? (although not > the > statistical “majority”!)—one is granted the luxury of blissful > ignorance, > which constitutes a form of passive-sexism. Okay, so I’ve got to > check > myself! Sara and I talked a bit about why such a discrepancy > exists—do more > men submit to journals?—and decided to look more closely (for me at > least) > at some of the current issues of different journals we have in our > home. > What follows then is a break-down of gender as best as we could > figure out. > Conscious of the myriad issues involved when discussing gender, and > those > that arose via our exploration, we based our assumptions—however > flawed they > are—on either the pronouns used in contributor’s notes or our > understanding > of the relationship between the writer’s first name the gender it > signifies. > Of course, this is problematic—what if folks self-identify > differently, what > about transgendered individuals, etc?? We did as best as we could > and were > often unable to decided. Ultimately we left a column for “unclear”. > We also > decided to leave out all of the various translators—hey, this aint a > paper > or anything, just two poets trying to figure some things out. Here’s > our > rough and flawed breakdown: > > Journals with more men than women: > > Fence v6 n2: men 29/ women 14 > Kiosk 2: men 16/ women 7 > New American Writing 21: men 31/ women 17/ unclear 2 > Jubilat 7: men 16/ women 6/ unclear 1 > Chicago Review v49 n2: men 19/ women 5 > Fulcrum 2: around 50 men and 10 women > Colorado Review v30 n3: men 16/ women 12/ unclear 3 > Shiny 12: men 29/ women 11/ unclear 1 > New Review of Literature 1: men 20/ women 11/ unclear 1 > The Canary 2: men 34/ women 17 > 3rd bed 8: men 18/ women 14/ unclear 2 > Magazine Cypress 2: men 13/ women 6 > 6X6 7: men 4/ women 2 > Chain 9: men 42/ women 25/ unclear 9 > Verse v19 n3-v20 n1: men 61/ women 20/ unclear 4 > Crowd 2: men 26/ women 17/ unclear 1 > American Letters and Commentary 14: men 34/ women 29/ unclear 1 > Lungfull 12: men 25/ women 16/ unclear 1 > Aufgabe 2: men 27/ women 19 > Antennae 5: men 12/ women 5 > Baffling Combustions 3 (our now-defunct journal): men 5/ women 4 > Best of American Poetry 2002: men 49/ women 26 > > Journals with even numbers: > > Conjunctions 40 > The Ixnay Reader 2003 > Columbia 38 > > Journals with more women than men: > > Hanging Loose 83: women 20/ men 15/ unclear 1 > Factorial 2: women 16/ men 9 > Pom Pom 4: women 23/ men 11/ unclear 1 > 26 issue B: women 22/ men 17 > No 2: women 15/ men 9/ unclear 1 > > > So here is a question to the larger poetry community: > > why is this the case? > > _________________________________________________________________ > Find high-speed ‘net deals — comparison-shop your local providers > here. > https://broadband.msn.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 15:06:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mairead Byrne Subject: Re: discrepancy between the amount of men and women in currentpoetryjournals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Dear Mark, Everything you say supports my bland point: we live in a patriarchal = society and poetry is a patriarchal business. Obviously the smaller = numbers of women publishing is a reflection of smaller numbers of women = submitting. I imagine the same thing might be said about jet pilots. =20 No, poetry is not a big business as businesses go. And yes, fiction, = being a much newer genre, in English at any rate, is not quite so = patriarchal. =20 What you say about women's presses etc supports my point regarding my = reasons for immigrating from Ireland: there is a greater range of poetries = here. Hence it is possible to talk about feminist presses or feminist = magazines in a way it is not possible to talk about in Ireland.=20 So I don't think saying "we live in a patriarchal society and poetry is a = patriarchal business" is too simple. It's the bottom line. I've been = living with it all my life, as have we all. Now I'm going to have a slice = of pizza with my daughters and the various patriarchs and racists within. It's a tired argument. Living the life without illusions is more = invigorating.=20 Mairead www.maireadbyrne.blogspot.com >>> junction@EARTHLINK.NET 01/18/04 14:51 PM >>> Mairead: I think "the poetry business is very patriarchal" may be too = easy=20 an answer (to the extent it can be called a business at all). As Noah=20 suggests, there are variables that are difficult to account for. You = ask,=20 for instance, whether men and women submit to journals in roughly the = same=20 numbers. I can say that overwhelmingly more men submit manuscripts to=20 Junction Press than women (this is not an invitation to submit--I'm not=20 reading anything new for the next two years). Here are a few more = things=20 worth checking: correlation of gender of editor to gender content, = relative=20 numbers broken down into age groups of both editors and poets (i.e. are=20 things changing?), and a check of the more powerful mainstream publications= =20 (the ones that pay contributors). Also a look at publications from say = 20=20 years ago. As a control, an interesting exercise would be to check = whether=20 the same disparity exists among fiction writers. And there's the = question=20 of whether the journals explicitly devoted to women's writing siphon = off=20 submissions by poets who would otherwise be published in the journals = Noah=20 looked at. A complex issue to investigate. Another fun thing to check would be the comparative numbers of women = and=20 men teaching in MFA programs, again broken down by age and genre. By way of contrast, the gender disparity in my Baja California anthology,= =20 Across the Line/Al otro lado (38 men and 14 women), inspired no comment = in=20 Baja, despite the strongly feminist views of some of the women. When I=20 asked some of the women what they felt about the disparity, universally = the=20 answer was that fewer women in Baja write poetry. Of the usual complaints= =20 about the absence of this or that poet, only three have been mentioned = to=20 me (and only one in print), all of them men. My coeditor Harry Polkinhorn= =20 and I were very conscious of the issue but were finally limited in our=20 selection by the choices available. In the brief time since the = anthology=20 came out a new press run by young women poets has appeared. Not explicitly= =20 dedicated to women's writing, it has thus far only published women. And = an=20 explicitly women's only quarterly broadsheet has also started up. Both=20 receive government funding, which is commonplace in Mexico. The writers=20 published so far are very young. It's impossible to predict careers, but = at=20 least three of them have begun writing very well. All of the older and = more=20 powerful local publishers, all organs of local, state, or federal=20 government cultural agencies, are run by women, as are the agencies=20 themselves, for the worst possible reason: when the present government = came=20 to power it promised that 30% of all appointees would be women; it=20 fulfilled that promise by giving women all of the cultural posts and = almost=20 none of the political, judicial or policy posts. Mark At 01:45 PM 1/18/2004 -0500, Mairead Byrne wrote: >Nice work, Noah. We live in a patriarchal society. >Your figures and all figures relating to male/female ratios regarding=20 >resources and representation reflect that. The poetry business is = very=20 >patriarchal. I left Ireland partly for that reason. I didn't expect=20 >poetry in the U.S. to be necessarily less patriarchal but I did expect=20 >(and got) a greater range of poetries. It's a hard life. We also live = in=20 >a racist society. But none of this is news. >Mairead > >www.maireadbyrne.blogspot.com > >>> noaheligordon@HOTMAIL.COM 01/18/04 13:18 PM >>> >Being in that domestically unsettling phase of student life and--to be = quite >honest-- purposefully stringing out such a phase for upwards of a decade, >what with =F4graduate=F6 and undergraduate work, my Post Office Box = address has >outlived many shared apartments and houses. It=C6s the more tactile end = of the >connection to my personal imagined community of poets, publishers and >editors, making the short walk between my current apartment and the Post >Office, along with morning coffee, one of those routine defining rituals = I >simultaneously can=C6t seem to shake and wouldn=C6t want to. It makes = Sundays >like this one a real drag! Yesterday=C6s plunder (isn=C6t =F4physical=F6 = mail >always a treasure?) included the latest issue of Fence magazine, of which = I >read the following pieces in the following order: Max Winter=C6s tempered = and >compelling editorial response to the less compelling and unrestrained >polemic of Joan Houlihan=C6s comments in her recent Boston Comment = column; the >wonderful exchange between Alice Notley and Edmund Berrigan; Robert >Paredez=C6s poems; the reading list/contributor=C6s notes pages. I = didn=C6t pick >the magazine up again until much later that evening, after my partner, = the >poet Sara Veglahn, had perused it=C6s pages for a while. When I did = return to >it, the first thing she said was, =F4There are 29 men and 14 women in = that >issue.=F6 In the interest of full self-disclosure, it was something I = hadn=C6t >noticed, which, perhaps, is representative of much of the problem; if = one=C6s >in the position of =FBwhat? privilege? dominance? power? (although not = the >statistical =F4majority=F6!)=F9one is granted the luxury of blissful = ignorance, >which constitutes a form of passive-sexism. Okay, so I=C6ve got to check >myself! Sara and I talked a bit about why such a discrepancy exists=F9do = more >men submit to journals?=F9and decided to look more closely (for me at = least) >at some of the current issues of different journals we have in our home. >What follows then is a break-down of gender as best as we could figure = out. >Conscious of the myriad issues involved when discussing gender, and those >that arose via our exploration, we based our assumptions=F9however flawed = they >are=F9on either the pronouns used in contributor=C6s notes or our = understanding >of the relationship between the writer=C6s first name the gender it = signifies. >Of course, this is problematic=F9what if folks self-identify differently, = what >about transgendered individuals, etc?? We did as best as we could and = were >often unable to decided. Ultimately we left a column for =F4unclear=F6. = We also >decided to leave out all of the various translators=F9hey, this aint a = paper >or anything, just two poets trying to figure some things out. Here=C6s = our >rough and flawed breakdown: > >Journals with more men than women: > >Fence v6 n2: men 29/ women 14 >Kiosk 2: men 16/ women 7 >New American Writing 21: men 31/ women 17/ unclear 2 >Jubilat 7: men 16/ women 6/ unclear 1 >Chicago Review v49 n2: men 19/ women 5 >Fulcrum 2: around 50 men and 10 women >Colorado Review v30 n3: men 16/ women 12/ unclear 3 >Shiny 12: men 29/ women 11/ unclear 1 >New Review of Literature 1: men 20/ women 11/ unclear 1 >The Canary 2: men 34/ women 17 >3rd bed 8: men 18/ women 14/ unclear 2 >Magazine Cypress 2: men 13/ women 6 >6X6 7: men 4/ women 2 >Chain 9: men 42/ women 25/ unclear 9 >Verse v19 n3-v20 n1: men 61/ women 20/ unclear 4 >Crowd 2: men 26/ women 17/ unclear 1 >American Letters and Commentary 14: men 34/ women 29/ unclear 1 >Lungfull 12: men 25/ women 16/ unclear 1 >Aufgabe 2: men 27/ women 19 >Antennae 5: men 12/ women 5 >Baffling Combustions 3 (our now-defunct journal): men 5/ women 4 >Best of American Poetry 2002: men 49/ women 26 > >Journals with even numbers: > >Conjunctions 40 >The Ixnay Reader 2003 >Columbia 38 > >Journals with more women than men: > >Hanging Loose 83: women 20/ men 15/ unclear 1 >Factorial 2: women 16/ men 9 >Pom Pom 4: women 23/ men 11/ unclear 1 >26 issue B: women 22/ men 17 >No 2: women 15/ men 9/ unclear 1 > > >So here is a question to the larger poetry community: > >why is this the case? > >_________________________________________________________________ >Find high-speed =E6net deals =F9 comparison-shop your local providers = here. >https://broadband.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 14:24:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Annie Finch Subject: Re: discrepancy between the amount of men and women in currentpoetryjournals In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Well, to be strictly thorough about it, Mairead, you'd have to say the imbalance is a reflection of at least two factors: smaller numbers of women submitting AND reluctance or inability of editors to solicit material from women to help address the difference. There may be other factors too. --Annie, who used to actively solicit women when I edited a journal and so we usually had a pretty good balance. At 3:06 PM -0500 1/18/04, Mairead Byrne wrote: >Dear Mark, > >Everything you say supports my bland point: we live in a patriarchal >society and poetry is a patriarchal business. Obviously the smaller >numbers of women publishing is a reflection of smaller numbers of >women submitting. I imagine the same thing might be said about jet >pilots. > >No, poetry is not a big business as businesses go. And yes, >fiction, being a much newer genre, in English at any rate, is not >quite so patriarchal. > >What you say about women's presses etc supports my point regarding >my reasons for immigrating from Ireland: there is a greater range of >poetries here. Hence it is possible to talk about feminist presses >or feminist magazines in a way it is not possible to talk about in >Ireland. > >So I don't think saying "we live in a patriarchal society and poetry >is a patriarchal business" is too simple. It's the bottom line. >I've been living with it all my life, as have we all. Now I'm going >to have a slice of pizza with my daughters and the various >patriarchs and racists within. > >It's a tired argument. Living the life without illusions is more >invigorating. > >Mairead > >www.maireadbyrne.blogspot.com ___________________________________ Annie Finch http://www.users.muohio.edu/finchar English Department, Miami University, Ohio Care2 make the world greener! Help the planet each day! It's free and easy: http://www.Care2.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 15:28:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: Agamben's letter to Le Monde Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dominique Fourcade sent me Giorgio Agamben's letter to Le Monde immediately after it appeared; several days later the story of Agamben cancelling his NYU class (on Walter Benjamin, in part) was covered in the Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/17/education/17professor.html). Here is a translation of the letter, provided by "truthout" (http://www.truthout.org) ************** Le Monde (French text at http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0@2-3232,36-348677,0.html) Saturday 10 January 2004 Giorgio Agamben The newspapers leave no doubt: from now on whoever wants to go to the United States with a visa will be put on file and will have to leave their fingerprints when they enter the country. Personally, I have no intention of submitting myself to such procedures and that's why I didn't wait to cancel the course I was supposed to teach at New York University in March. I would like to explain the reasons for this refusal here, that is, why, in spite of the sympathy that has connected me to my American colleagues and their students for many years, I consider that this decision is at once necessary and without appeal and would hope that it will be shared by other European intellectuals and teachers. It's not only the immediate superficial reaction to a procedure that has long been imposed on criminals and political defendants. If it were only that, we would certainly be morally able to share, in solidarity, the humiliating conditions to which so many human beings are subjected. The essential does not lie there. The problem exceeds the limits of personal sensitivity and simply concerns the juridical-political status (it would be simpler, perhaps, to say bio-political) of citizens of the so-called democratic states where we live. There has been an attempt the last few years to convince us to accept as the humane and normal dimensions of our existence, practices of control that had always been properly considered inhumane and exceptional. Thus, no one is unaware that the control exercised by the state through the usage of electronic devices, such as credit cards or cell phones, has reached previously unimaginable levels. All the same, it wouldn't be possible to cross certain thresholds in the control and manipulation of bodies without entering a new bio-political era, without going one step further in what Michel Foucault called the progressive animalization of man which is established through the most sophisticated techniques. Electronic filing of finger and retina prints, subcutaneous tattooing, as well as other practices of the same type, are elements that contribute towards defining this threshold. The security reasons that are invoked to justify these measures should not impress us: they have nothing to do with it. History teaches us how practices first reserved for foreigners find themselves applied later to the rest of the citizenry. What is at stake here is nothing less than the new "normal" bio-political relationship between citizens and the state. This relation no longer has anything to do with free and active participation in the public sphere, but concerns the enrolment and the filing away of the most private and incommunicable aspect of subjectivity: I mean the body's biological life. These technological devices that register and identify naked life correspond to the media devices that control and manipulate public speech: between these two extremes of a body without words and words without a body, the space we once upon a time called politics is ever more scaled-down and tiny. Thus, by applying these techniques and these devices invented for the dangerous classes to a citizen, or rather to a human being as such, states, which should constitute the precise space of political life, have made the person the ideal suspect, to the point that it's humanity itself that has become the dangerous class. Some years ago, I had written that the West's political paradigm was no longer the city state, but the concentration camp, and that we had passed from Athens to Auschwitz. It was obviously a philosophical thesis, and not historic recital, because one could not confuse phenomena that it is proper, on the contrary, to distinguish. I would have liked to suggest that tattooing at Auschwitz undoubtedly seemed the most normal and economic way to regulate the enrolment and registration of deported persons into concentration camps. The bio-political tattooing the United States imposes now to enter its territory could well be the precursor to what we will be asked to accept later as the normal identity registration of a good citizen in the state's gears and mechanisms. That's why we must oppose it. Translated from Italian to French by Martin Rueff. Translation from French to English: Truthout French language correspondent Leslie Thatcher * Giorgio Agamben is a philosopher and professor at the University of Venice and New York University. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 12:59:18 -0800 Reply-To: antrobin@clipper.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anthony Robinson Subject: Discrepancy between the amount of men and women in _The Canary_ In-Reply-To: <1074456418.400ae762c52e8@mail3.buffalo.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Noah Eli Gordon's question raises a concern that I've been dealing with for some time. In his list of journals featuring more men than women, my own journal, _The Canary_, was listed. When putting together _The Canary_ my co-editors and I wondered about this discrepancy, and how to go about solving it. I've crunched some numbers below, unscientifically, to address the actual ratio of women to men in _The Canary_, by poet, and by number of pages allotted, and the gender of poets represented who were solicited versus those who submitted unsolicited work. _Canary 2_ 17 Women, 33 Men (Noah figured 34 men, but I believe he is mistaken.) Number of pages in journal containing poetry: 108 Number of pages containing poetry by women: 45 Number of pages containing poetry by men: 63 Avg. number of pages of poetry alloted to each woman: 2.65 Avg. number of pages of poetry alloted to each man: 1.9 So while, men out number women nearly 2 to 1, women are represented by proportionally more pages of poetry per poet. BUT that doesn't "even" things out. It occurred to me that most of the soliciting I've done personally for the magazine has been of women poets. Perhaps this is why, in my unscientific head, I often think that the gender balance is more even than it actually is--I've been corresponding mostly with women. The problem, here, at least from an editor's point of view, is one of available work. Men simply seem to be submitting more. Further, men are, in my experience, much more likely to respond favorably to solicitations. Of the 33 men appearing in Canary #2, 12 were solicited. 21 came from the slush-pile. I should note that nearly every man we solicited responded by sending work. Of the 17 women appearing in Canary #2, 12 were solicited. 5 came from the slushpile. I should also note that we solicited many more than 12 women, but only received work from these 12. So assuming that we're soliciting in more or less equal numbers, we are left with deciding what to publish from the unsolicited masses--masses that are overwhelmingly male. 21 men vs. 5 women. We just finished editing for #3, and actually spent an entire day rejecting or kindly asking male poets to resubmit for a future issue in order to even out the gender balance. IN short, we turned away some good work simply because it was written by men. In the meantime, we've been soliciting more women, in the 11th hour, as it were. I wish more women would submit to the journal. Best, Anthony Robinson Editor, __The Canary__ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 13:08:08 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Betsy Andrews Subject: Betsy Andrews/Erica Kaufman read MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Help celebrate the publication of She-Devil by Betsy Andrews (Sardines Press) with a reading by Betsy Andrews & Erica Kaufman Thursday, January 22, 2004 7PM @ Soft Skull Shortwave 71 Bond Street Brooklyn, NY (718) 643-1599/ www.softskull.com Betsy Andrews' poems and essays can be found in numerous journals and magazines including Fence, LUNGFULL!, PomPom, Skanky Possum, bilingually in the Yemeni journal Culture and upcoming in X-Connect. She's the recipient of an Astrea Award, a NYFA Fellowship and the Philadelphia City Paper Poetry Prize. She lives in Brooklyn. Erica Kaufman lives and works in NYC. Her poems can be found in The Mississippi Review, Bombay Gin, Puppyflowers, among other places. She co-curates Belladonna* "Andrews' fierce commitment to an explosive small scale yields an almost orchestral fullness: tone & idea in continuous poetry. These poems have the intricacy of devotional objects and yet they feed exhilleration..." -Camille Roy 32 pages, handbound, letterpress cover To purchase and for information contact: rogersnell@mac.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 13:24:03 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gloria Frym Subject: Re: discrepancy between the amount of men and women in current poetryjournals In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20040118110037.0331ca50@mail.earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mark Weiss's idea of tabulating the gender balance of writers teaching in MFA programs would be a great project. One might also look closely at the percentage of tenured men and tenured women, in relation to adjunct men and adjunct women professors. As a result of necessary pressures to ethnically balance what are usually small departments, I'll bet that the male/female ratio of tenured or tenure-track professors in MFA programs has been rather ignored, particularly in private colleges and universities. Three out of four new tenure-track hires at my college last year were men. Two out of two tenure-track hires in my MFA department were men. Both have or were about to complete PhDs. This brings in a whole other variable. Men with PhDs yet far fewer published books than at least two out of the six women finalists were chosen for the two positions. One of the six women finalists had more books published and more teaching experience, and is more widely known in the literary world. It appeared that no thought was given to the gender inequity of this decision. Gender balance or imbalance, as it were, seems to be lost at this moment, replaced by the zeitgest of wars, terror, fear, security, the erosion of civil liberties and social programs, and some sort of weird notion of post-feminism, which I have never understood. Gloria Frym On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 11:51:33 -0800 Mark Weiss wrote: >Mairead: I think "the poetry business is very patriarchal" may be too easy an >answer (to the extent it can be called a business at all). As Noah suggests, >there are variables that are difficult to account for. You ask, for instance, >whether men and women submit to journals in roughly the same numbers. I can >say that overwhelmingly more men submit manuscripts to Junction Press than >women (this is not an invitation to submit--I'm not reading anything new for >the next two years). Here are a few more things worth checking: correlation >of gender of editor to gender content, relative numbers broken down into age >groups of both editors and poets (i.e. are things changing?), and a check of >the more powerful mainstream publications (the ones that pay contributors). >Also a look at publications from say 20 years ago. As a control, an >interesting exercise would be to check whether the same disparity exists >among fiction writers. And there's the question of whether the journals >explicitly devoted to women's writing siphon off submissions by poets who >would otherwise be published in the journals Noah looked at. A complex issue >to investigate. > >Another fun thing to check would be the comparative numbers of women and men >teaching in MFA programs, again broken down by age and genre. > >By way of contrast, the gender disparity in my Baja California anthology, >Across the Line/Al otro lado (38 men and 14 women), inspired no comment in >Baja, despite the strongly feminist views of some of the women. When I asked >some of the women what they felt about the disparity, universally the answer >was that fewer women in Baja write poetry. Of the usual complaints about the >absence of this or that poet, only three have been mentioned to me (and only >one in print), all of them men. My coeditor Harry Polkinhorn and I were very >conscious of the issue but were finally limited in our selection by the >choices available. In the brief time since the anthology came out a new press >run by young women poets has appeared. Not explicitly dedicated to women's >writing, it has thus far only published women. And an explicitly women's only >quarterly broadsheet has also started up. Both receive government funding, >which is commonplace in Mexico. The writers published so far are very young. >It's impossible to predict careers, but at least three of them have begun >writing very well. All of the older and more powerful local publishers, all >organs of local, state, or federal government cultural agencies, are run by >women, as are the agencies themselves, for the worst possible reason: when >the present government came to power it promised that 30% of all appointees >would be women; it fulfilled that promise by giving women all of the cultural >posts and almost none of the political, judicial or policy posts. > >Mark > > >At 01:45 PM 1/18/2004 -0500, Mairead Byrne wrote: >>Nice work, Noah. We live in a patriarchal society. >>Your figures and all figures relating to male/female ratios regarding >>resources and representation reflect that. The poetry business is very >>patriarchal. I left Ireland partly for that reason. I didn't expect poetry >>in the U.S. to be necessarily less patriarchal but I did expect (and got) a >>greater range of poetries. It's a hard life. We also live in a racist >>society. But none of this is news. >>Mairead >> >>www.maireadbyrne.blogspot.com >> >>> noaheligordon@HOTMAIL.COM 01/18/04 13:18 PM >>> >>Being in that domestically unsettling phase of student life and--to be quite >>honest-- purposefully stringing out such a phase for upwards of a decade, >>what with ôgraduateö and undergraduate work, my Post Office Box address has >>outlived many shared apartments and houses. ItÆs the more tactile end of the >>connection to my personal imagined community of poets, publishers and >>editors, making the short walk between my current apartment and the Post >>Office, along with morning coffee, one of those routine defining rituals I >>simultaneously canÆt seem to shake and wouldnÆt want to. It makes Sundays >>like this one a real drag! YesterdayÆs plunder (isnÆt ôphysicalö mail >>always a treasure?) included the latest issue of Fence magazine, of which I >>read the following pieces in the following order: Max WinterÆs tempered and >>compelling editorial response to the less compelling and unrestrained >>polemic of Joan HoulihanÆs comments in her recent Boston Comment column; the >>wonderful exchange between Alice Notley and Edmund Berrigan; Robert >>ParedezÆs poems; the reading list/contributorÆs notes pages. I didnÆt pick >>the magazine up again until much later that evening, after my partner, the >>poet Sara Veglahn, had perused itÆs pages for a while. When I did return to >>it, the first thing she said was, ôThere are 29 men and 14 women in that >>issue.ö In the interest of full self-disclosure, it was something I hadnÆt >>noticed, which, perhaps, is representative of much of the problem; if oneÆs >>in the position of ûwhat? privilege? dominance? power? (although not the >>statistical ômajorityö!)ùone is granted the luxury of blissful ignorance, >>which constitutes a form of passive-sexism. Okay, so IÆve got to check >>myself! Sara and I talked a bit about why such a discrepancy existsùdo more >>men submit to journals?ùand decided to look more closely (for me at least) >>at some of the current issues of different journals we have in our home. >>What follows then is a break-down of gender as best as we could figure out. >>Conscious of the myriad issues involved when discussing gender, and those >>that arose via our exploration, we based our assumptionsùhowever flawed they >>areùon either the pronouns used in contributorÆs notes or our understanding >>of the relationship between the writerÆs first name the gender it signifies. >>Of course, this is problematicùwhat if folks self-identify differently, what >>about transgendered individuals, etc?? We did as best as we could and were >>often unable to decided. Ultimately we left a column for ôunclearö. We also >>decided to leave out all of the various translatorsùhey, this aint a paper >>or anything, just two poets trying to figure some things out. HereÆs our >>rough and flawed breakdown: >> >>Journals with more men than women: >> >>Fence v6 n2: men 29/ women 14 >>Kiosk 2: men 16/ women 7 >>New American Writing 21: men 31/ women 17/ unclear 2 >>Jubilat 7: men 16/ women 6/ unclear 1 >>Chicago Review v49 n2: men 19/ women 5 >>Fulcrum 2: around 50 men and 10 women >>Colorado Review v30 n3: men 16/ women 12/ unclear 3 >>Shiny 12: men 29/ women 11/ unclear 1 >>New Review of Literature 1: men 20/ women 11/ unclear 1 >>The Canary 2: men 34/ women 17 >>3rd bed 8: men 18/ women 14/ unclear 2 >>Magazine Cypress 2: men 13/ women 6 >>6X6 7: men 4/ women 2 >>Chain 9: men 42/ women 25/ unclear 9 >>Verse v19 n3-v20 n1: men 61/ women 20/ unclear 4 >>Crowd 2: men 26/ women 17/ unclear 1 >>American Letters and Commentary 14: men 34/ women 29/ unclear 1 >>Lungfull 12: men 25/ women 16/ unclear 1 >>Aufgabe 2: men 27/ women 19 >>Antennae 5: men 12/ women 5 >>Baffling Combustions 3 (our now-defunct journal): men 5/ women 4 >>Best of American Poetry 2002: men 49/ women 26 >> >>Journals with even numbers: >> >>Conjunctions 40 >>The Ixnay Reader 2003 >>Columbia 38 >> >>Journals with more women than men: >> >>Hanging Loose 83: women 20/ men 15/ unclear 1 >>Factorial 2: women 16/ men 9 >>Pom Pom 4: women 23/ men 11/ unclear 1 >>26 issue B: women 22/ men 17 >>No 2: women 15/ men 9/ unclear 1 >> >> >>So here is a question to the larger poetry community: >> >>why is this the case? >> >>_________________________________________________________________ >>Find high-speed ænet deals ù comparison-shop your local providers here. >>https://broadband.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 13:42:31 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: discrepancy between the amount of men and women in current poetryjournals In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit new MFA hires are listed at AWP; last time I crunched the numbers, female MFA hires (as Gloria observed w/ PhD hires) seemed to have more publishing credits / more education than male hires, but the difference in the number of hires wasn't a substantial difference EXCEPT THAT at least in my experience, the creative writing classroom is an almost completely female one -- I rarely have fewer than 75% female students -- and so my assumption is that there are more female MFAs, more women writing poetry, but they're writing less and submitting less this conversation in the past has also included the question, are the editors of the journals in question male or female, what is the stated policy of the journal as far as submissions -- ie, over the transom submissions read, query first, be a subscriber, solicitation only... -- on WOMPO, through discussion we found that a lot of the journals who are most inequitable as far as publishing men and women actually have a stated policy that they read only solicited submissions, but that men were sending unsolicited ss anyhow, and few women were asked to submit or that only subscribers were welcome to submit an additional nuance here is what sort of poetry -- it is well known that most feminist, women's studies, and etc. journals are closed to experimental poetry, for example -- Rgds, Catherine ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 13:46:30 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Corbett Subject: Re: Empire In-Reply-To: <86.34fc2b8.2d3ace48@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE what about Puerto Rico? Guam? what about the millions of immigrants who come here to work and enjoy our "values" and then get, pardon me, shat upon by the Power That Be. we are no better than Rome, and Britain, for all of the ill it caused, is a far and away, the most just empire that has been, with a close second being the French. (Personally, I'd rather have the French, because they left better food, but political institutions do trump eating. plus, the Brits have to deal with losing in cricket to their former colonies.) as for our national sin, which they collaborated in, without the cotton gin and the ugly compact that we made to create this country, slavery would have died a natural death because economic inefficiency in the 18th centur. yet it was the US that kept it alive well into the 19th century. rmc --=20 Robert Corbett, Ph.C.=09=09"Given the distance of communication, Coordinator of New Programs=09 I hope the words aren't idling on the B40D Gerberding=09=09=09 map of my fingertips, but igniting the Phone: (206) 616-0657=09=09 wild acres within the probabilities of Fax: (206) 685-3218=09=09 spelling" - Rosmarie Waldrop UW Box: 351237 On Sat, 17 Jan 2004, Murat Nemet-Nejat wrote: > In a message dated 01/17/04 2:55:50 AM, alex39@MSN.COM writes: > > > > 1. This empire exists because it kicked shit out of empire aspiring > > assholes (I assume you have enough literacy of historic world events to= fill in the > > blanks of the names of the empire building aspirants...although I conce= de > > that assumption may exceed your intellectual capacities, for it assumes= you > > actually are familiar with the history of the world in the 19th and 20t= h > > centuries...and that may have required you to think rather than merely = have sucked > > your thumbs.). > > > > 2. This empire has never taken or laid claim to any lands (other than e= nough > > to bury its dead soldiers) from any nation it sped to defend and assist= to > > free from tyranny.=A0 > > > > > > I am also a historical ignoramus; therefore, I have a few questions: Why = is > Hawai part of the United States? Wasn't Texas at one time part of Mexico?= Why > is the United States strewn with place names the origin of which is Ameri= can > Indian? > > Murat > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 17:15:21 -0500 Reply-To: olsonjk@delhi.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kirby Olson Organization: SUNY Delhi Subject: Re: short poets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Short people have almost no reason to live. They almost invariably make less money than their taller peers. It's like a half million over a lifetime. I hope the editors of volumes of poetry also make sure that short people are included. It would be a good idea to have poets measure themselves and those over a certain height would be excluded. In the history of English literature at least there are so few midgets that I sometimes burst into tears. O, Alexander Pope -- we should dig him up, and clone him to rectify this problem. I'm not short, but I'm an advocate for the tiny. Well, really, I am not as big as some on this board God help me, what's the average size of a poet on this board anyhoo? I could see a whole series published by a university press -- Longer Poems by Shorter Poets. Please take this overly seriously. It's a crisis. Important writers are almost always very very tall. Even Charles Olson and Brautigan. They were huge. This is what they mean when they say Great Writers. And women do have a disadvantage because they mature earlier and stop growing on average four years earlier than men. So their hands and feet are tiny, and their stature will never measure up. The great tall models are an exception to this rule, and look how easily their lives go. This is very upsetting. Will somebody do something. Everybody needs to be exactly the same size. Whatever happened to equality? Why are some people more beautiful than others? Don't even get me started! And why are some poets better than others! It isn't fair! We should all write exactly the same poems! Why don't we mandate this -- we can make a template for a poem and anybody who isn't willing to let the state be Procrustean -- well, let's send them to Siberia and see how well they write when their hands are frozen solid. Or no, let's send them to northern Finland and let them hang around the teeny tiny Sami people and feel like, like, beanpoles while they try to make a go of it with tiny potato pies delivered from Stockmann's with that arctic wind whipping through their ass cracks. I mean, I have serious envy issues regarding tall beautiful talented poets and I want them all brought down to the size of smaller poets and everything levelled, darn it. I'm having a real fit here. Please do something. -- Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 17:24:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: discrepancy between the NUMBERS of men and women in current poetry journals In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" -- George Bowering Oh, Lord, Corrine Calvet! 303 Fielden Ave. Port Colborne. ON, L3K 4T5 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 17:32:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: Re: discrepancy between/ Boog City gender breakdown In-Reply-To: <003c01c3de0b$fa034270$220110ac@CADALY> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable hi all, in light of this thread, i just did a gender breakdown of all the issues of boog city (the most recent sample of our presses output, though we publishe= d for 10-1/2 years before starting the paper in jan. 2002). I also broke it down by editor.=20 best, david ------ Boog City 1 edited by me 5 women 9 men Boog City 2 edited by me (David Baratier selected 1w, 2m of total) 10 women 9 men Boog City 3 edited by me (John Coletti selected 2w, 2m of total) 3 women 7 men Boog City 4 edited by me 1 women 0 men (all music issue, hence only one poem) Boog City 5 edited by Joanna Fuhrman 3 women 2 men Boog City 6 edited by Douglas Rothschild (4w, 12m), Fuhrman (0w, 3m), and me (1w, 1m) 5 women 16 men (bc6 was a baseball issue, excluding Fuhrman=B9s selections) Boog City 7 edited by Fuhrman=20 2 women 2 men Boog City 8 edited by Arielle Greenberg (Jim Behrle selected 1m of total) 6 women 5 men Boog City 9 edited by Behrle (i selected 2w, 2m of total) 5 women 5 men Boog City 10 edited by Behrle (i selected 1m of total) 2 women 5 men Boog City 11 edited by Stephanie Young 4 women 0 men (bc11 was an all-Brenda issue) Boog City 12 edited by Young 2 women 3 men Boog City 13 (out next week) edited by Young 1 women 2 men Totals: 49w 65m by editor: me 19w 25m Baratier 1w 2m Coletti 2w 2m Rothschild 4w 12m=20 Fuhrman 5w 7m Greenberg 6w 4m Behrle 5w 8m Young 7w 5m ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 17:40:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: short poets In-Reply-To: <400B0578.F1776602@delhi.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit They're so easy and natural to look down upon. That accounts for much of it. They make great Napoleons, however. Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard@earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard The Sonnet Project: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/The%20Sonnet%20Project.html { Short people have almost no reason to live. They almost invariably make { less money than their taller peers. It's like a half million over a { lifetime. I hope the editors of volumes of poetry also make sure that { short people are included. It would be a good idea to have poets { measure themselves and those over a certain height would be excluded. { In the history of English literature at least there are so few midgets { that I sometimes burst into tears. O, Alexander Pope -- we should dig { him up, and clone him to rectify this problem. I'm not short, but I'm { an advocate for the tiny. Well, really, I am not as big as some on this { board God help me, what's the average size of a poet on this board { anyhoo? { { I could see a whole series published by a university press -- { { Longer Poems by Shorter Poets. { { Please take this overly seriously. It's a crisis. Important writers { are almost always very very tall. Even Charles Olson and Brautigan. { They were huge. This is what they mean when they say Great Writers. { And women do have a disadvantage because they mature earlier and stop { growing on average four years earlier than men. So their hands and feet { are tiny, and their stature will never measure up. The great tall { models are an exception to this rule, and look how easily their lives { go. { { This is very upsetting. Will somebody do something. Everybody needs to { be exactly the same size. Whatever happened to equality? Why are some { people more beautiful than others? Don't even get me started! And why { are some poets better than others! It isn't fair! We should all write { exactly the same poems! Why don't we mandate this -- we can make a { template for a poem and anybody who isn't willing to let the state be { Procrustean -- well, let's send them to Siberia and see how well they { write when their hands are frozen solid. Or no, let's send them to { northern Finland and let them hang around the teeny tiny Sami people and { feel like, like, beanpoles while they try to make a go of it with tiny { potato pies delivered from Stockmann's with that arctic wind whipping { through their ass cracks. I mean, I have serious envy issues regarding { tall beautiful talented poets and I want them all brought down to the { size of smaller poets and everything levelled, darn it. I'm having a { real fit here. Please do something. -- Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 17:53:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: short poets Comments: To: Kirby Olson In-Reply-To: <400B0578.F1776602@delhi.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Dear Kirby, Amiri Baraka, the late Gwendolyn Brooks, and I all had a good laugh over your short post. Shortly, Gwyn McVay --- "Nobody gets paid for being a poemer." -- Bucky the cat, "Get Fuzzy," 6/30/03 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 16:17:13 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: charles alexander Subject: new books from chax press Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Chax Press would like to announce three new books, the first two of which are trade paperbacks, and the third a handmade artist's book. Born Two, by Allison Cobb Chantry, by Elizabeth Treadwell Fables, by Pierre Bettencourt For more information about all of these books, plus two more that are only a few months old, please look at the new updates to our web site. General web site address: Born Two, by Allison Cobb: Chantry, by Elizabeth Treadwell: Implexures, by Karen Mac Cormack: Resurrection Papers, by Heather Thomas: Fables, by Pierre Bettencourt: Chax Press books may be ordered directly from us: Chax Press 101 W. Sixth Street Tucson, AZ 85701-1000 or you may order from Small Press Distribution: All orders directly to the press for two or more books (not limited to the books announced here), received by March 1, 2004, in response to this email, will receive a 10% discount and will not be charged for domestic shipping and handling. So please let us know if you are ordering in response to the POETICS list announcement. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 15:46:24 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: discrepancy between the amount of men and women in current poetryjournals In-Reply-To: <003c01c3de0b$fa034270$220110ac@CADALY> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed This being my last allowed message for the day (and with a huge weight of other work to do) I'll answer a couple of posts. Catherine, to add to your nuance, I did a quick online check of the only two mainstream pubs I could think of offhand that publish significant amounts of poetry, Poetry Magazine and Shenandoah. Numbers were equal. I have no idea if this is in any way typical, but it at least suggests one or more of the following: 1. mainstream mags try harder 2. women poets are more accepted in the mainstream 3. there are a greater number of women poets proportionally in the mainstream than in whatever you want to call the rest of us. Mairead: >Everything you say supports my bland point: we live in a patriarchal >society and poetry is a patriarchal business. Obviously the smaller >numbers of women publishing is a reflection of smaller numbers of women >submitting. I imagine the same thing might be said about jet pilots. But not about doctors or lawyers, and decreasingly about academics. Jet pilot is I think more of a special case than these or for that matter poetry, but I appreciate the verbal sally. >No, poetry is not a big business as businesses go. And yes, fiction, being >a much newer genre, in English at any rate, is not quite so patriarchal. One would imagine that poetry were some kind of small family enterprise handed down from father to son. It follows than that if it was virtually all male when Chaucer ran the business it will continue to be so. That other business, fiction, founded in the more gender egalitarian 17th century, naturally also continues to be as it was. We can't even begin to answer the question of why at least a certain group of magazines tends to publish fewer women if we appeal to an a priori. If anyone is seriously interested in the question at the very least we need to know where the problem does and does not exist. A report from the nearest magazine store selling the nationally-distributed mainstream mags would certainly help, which lets me off the hook--we don't have any in San Diego. The same arguments were in the air in 1973-1975, when I was publishing the three issues of Broadway Boogie. Choices were limited by my ignorance but also by my taste: I was most interested in the NY branch of The New American Poetry, and Black Mountain and NY School were boys clubs. But it was also true then that submissions were overwhelmingly from men. Of the 36 poets in the three issues only 11 were women. The reappearance rate seems to have been about even. Mark At 01:42 PM 1/18/2004 -0800, you wrote: >new MFA hires are listed at AWP; last time I crunched the numbers, >female MFA hires (as Gloria observed w/ PhD hires) seemed to have more >publishing credits / more education than male hires, but the difference >in the number of hires wasn't a substantial difference > >EXCEPT THAT at least in my experience, the creative writing classroom is >an almost completely female one -- I rarely have fewer than 75% female >students -- and so my assumption is that there are more female MFAs, >more women writing poetry, but they're writing less and submitting less > >this conversation in the past has also included the question, are the >editors of the journals in question male or female, what is the stated >policy of the journal as far as submissions -- ie, over the transom >submissions read, query first, be a subscriber, solicitation only... -- >on WOMPO, through discussion we found that a lot of the journals who are >most inequitable as far as publishing men and women actually have a >stated policy that they read only solicited submissions, but that men >were sending unsolicited ss anyhow, and few women were asked to submit > >or that only subscribers were welcome to submit > >an additional nuance here is what sort of poetry -- it is well known >that most feminist, women's studies, and etc. journals are closed to >experimental poetry, for example -- > >Rgds, >Catherine ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 19:02:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lori Emerson Subject: big oops re:fwd message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit So sorry for the total brain lapse--I just accidentally forwarded an old posting to the listserv! Best, Lori ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 19:04:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lori Emerson Subject: Re: big oops re:fwd message In-Reply-To: <1074470525.400b1e7d8b2c7@mail1.buffalo.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline even worse, the message didn't go through...so now I have to apologize for apologizing.... -Lori --On Sunday, January 18, 2004 7:02 PM -0500 Lori Emerson wrote: > So sorry for the total brain lapse--I just accidentally forwarded an > old posting to the listserv! > > Best, Lori > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 19:11:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Rothenberg Subject: Re: short poets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I enjoyed it too. MR ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gwyn McVay" To: Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2004 5:53 PM Subject: Re: short poets > Dear Kirby, > > Amiri Baraka, the late Gwendolyn Brooks, and I all had a good laugh over > your short post. > > Shortly, > Gwyn McVay > > --- > "Nobody gets paid for being a poemer." > -- Bucky the cat, "Get Fuzzy," 6/30/03 > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 00:32:34 -0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Trevor Joyce Subject: Collaborative composition project Comments: To: Lists@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Comments: cc: POETRYETC@JISCMAIL.AC.UK, UKPOETRY@LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Anyone interested in the practice of collaborative composition might like to look in on an experiment in that direction, involving members of the British & Irish Poets listserv. You can see the current state of the project via: http://soundeye.org/offsets We've come from a standing start to over sixty contributions in less than two weeks. The web-site only went online last weekend, and is still developing. The next major task is to attempt to automate the update process, which at present is entirely manual. It is, at least, different from anything else I know that's been tried (though I'd welcome informed correction on that). It's also fun to play and, I hope, to read. All observations, suggestions, kudos and brickbats accepted. Well, there's no alternative, is there? Best, Trevor http://soundeye.org/trevorjoyce ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 16:34:20 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: Dodie Bellamy & Eleni Stecopoulos In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please forward !!!! Announcing: a wonderful reading not to be missed... an evening with: Dodie Bellamy Eleni Stecopoulos Saturday, Jan. 24 7:00 p.m. 3435 Cesar Chavez #327 San Francisco, CA Dodie Bellamy's latest book Cunt-Ups (Tender Buttons) won the 2002=20 Firecracker Alternative Book Award for poetry. Her infamous epistolary=20= vampire novel, The Letters of Mina Harker, will be reprinted in 2004 by=20= the University of Wisconsin Press. Also in 2004 San Francisco's=20 Suspect Thoughts will publish Pink Steam, a collection of stories,=20 memoirs and memoiresque essays. She is currently working on The Fourth=20= Form, a multi-dimensional sex novel. This semester she is, insanely,=20 teaching fiction writing at San Francisco State, Antioch Los Angeles,=20 and CalArts. Eleni Stecopoulos's poetry and poetics have appeared in the New York=20 Times, Harvard Review, Open Letter, Zazil, Chain, Rust Talks, and=20 elsewhere. Her essay =93Geopathy=94 is forthcoming in Ecopoetics. She is=20= finishing a dissertation out of Buffalo on Artaud, Paul Metcalf,=20 autoethnography, alphabetic terror, Chinese medicine, time and the=20 American frontier, etc. ************************************************************************ DIRECTIONS: to 3435 Cesar Chavez #327 between Valencia and Mission, on the South side of Cesar Chavez is a parking lot entrance; which when you first enter from Cesar Chavez will be (some) guest parking. Parking in the area (on the street) is not to bad. Once you have entered the parking lot go to your left past a small printing company and directly behind that (to the west) will be double glass doors. @ left of the Doors is a =93buzzer system=94 press = the number 043. someone will pick up the phone and buzz you in. Mass transit. Bart - get off at 24th go south on Mission, (the numbers will get higher) walk 3 blocks, cross Cesar Chavez (there will be a stop light) go right 3/4 of a block, turn left in to parking lot. MUNI- get off @ 27th walk north (the opposite direction the muni would be going from down town) walk one block turn right on Cesar chavez, Cross Delores, Guerrero and then cross valencia, turn right into first parking lot. Buses- on Mission take (going southish)- 14. 14L, 49 (get off at 26th - 1/2 block from cesar chavez - walk south - cross Cesar Chavez turn right; Valencia - 26 get off just past Cesar Chavez , cross Valencia on Cesar Chavez, turn right into parking lot.. ________________________________________________________________ any questions contact: kari edwards terra1@sonic.net ________________= ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 16:45:06 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: travis ortiz Subject: BlipSoak01 by Tan Lin In-Reply-To: <38FE8E6A-4A17-11D8-90CC-003065AC6058@sonic.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BlipSoak01 by Tan Lin Atelos is pleased to announce the publication of BlipSoak01 by Tan Lin (http://www.atelos.org/blip.htm). About the book: Tan Lin's BlipSoak01 sends its reader leaping over the gaps between left page and right. The writing challenges the limits of the line Lin, dexterously running back and forth across facing pages and out into questions as to why boredom might be vital to an experience of a text, how sampling shapes poetic style, and why dancing has the power to "turn the world into a mistake." This fascination with repetition and rhythm brings BlipSoak01 alongside emergent genres of electronic music. This is an explicit theme: the text is organized as if it were a compact disk EP; its "A SIDE" is called "IDM" (Intelligent Dance Music). A type of experimental sound characterized by ambient noise, sampling, highly layered beats, and the glitches and "blips" of digital techno-culture, IDM shares with Lin's poetry an ear for mistakes and accidents which have the potential, if properly sequenced, to draw our attention to the utmost surface of things. BlipSoak01 interprets the significance (and non-significance) of surfaces, "The surface is beautiful because the surface is always the same. The surface is beautiful because it can be forgotten one moment at a time. The surface is beautiful because it is lying. Continual observation of the surface is the most beautiful forgotten thing in the poem" (from the author's preface). Lin works with especial attention to words as objects that we look at; to the end that his poetry might make the moment of reading the looked-at object of the text. In this sense, BlipSoak01 gives the reader a fractured bit-map to measures of poetry which are-in the best sense of the word-untimely. About the author: Tan Lin is a writer, artist, and critic. He is the author of Lotion Bullwhip Giraffe (Sun and Moon Press) and his art and video work have been exhibited at the Yale Art Museum, the Sophienholm in Copenhagen, and the Marianne Boesky Gallery in New York City. His writings have appeared in numerous journals, including Conjunctions, Purple, Black Book, and Cabinet. He is a professor of English and creative writing at New Jersey City University. About the project: Atelos was founded in 1995 as a project of the nonprofit foundation Hip's Road. Atelos is devoted to publishing, under the sign of poetry, writing which challenges the conventional definitions of poetry. All the works published as part of the Atelos project are commissioned specifically for it, and each is involved in some way with crossing traditional genre boundaries, including, for example, those that would separate theory from practice, poetry from prose, essay from drama, the visual image from the verbal, the literary from the non-literary, and so forth. The Atelos project when complete will consist of 50 volumes; Blipsoak01 is volume 18. The project directors and editors are Lyn Hejinian and Travis Ortiz; the editor for cover production and design is by Ree Katrak; the production assistant is Colin Dingler. Ordering information: BlipSoak01 may be ordered from Small Press Distribution, 1341 Seventh Street, Berkeley, CA 94710-1403; phone 510-524-1668 or toll-free 800-869-7553; e-mail: orders@spdbooks.org. or SPD's web site: http://www.pub24x7.com/scripts/rgw.dll/rblive/BOOKS:OneProduct,this.Crea te(1891190180) Title:BlipSoak01 Contact: Lyn Hejinian: 510-548-1817 Author: Tan Lin Travis Ortiz: 415-652-9241 Price: $12.95 fax: 510-704-8350 Pages: 336 Atelos Publication Date: December 30, 2003 PO Box 5814 ISBN: 1-891190-18-0 Berkeley, CA 94705-0814 # # # ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 18:20:33 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=A0A_Dishonest_War?= In-Reply-To: <004f01c3ddf6$796bb120$823da943@comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/011904A.shtml=A0 =A0A Dishonest War =A0=A0By Edward M. Kennedy =A0=A0The Washington Post =A0=A0Sunday 18 January 2004 =A0=A0Of the many issues competing for attention in this new and = defining=20 year, one is of a unique order of magnitude: President Bush's decision=20= to go to war in Iraq. The facts demonstrate how dishonest that decision=20= was. As former Treasury secretary Paul H. O'Neill recently confirmed,=20 the debate over military action began as soon as President Bush took=20 office. Some felt Saddam Hussein could be contained without war. A=20 month after the inauguration, Secretary of State Colin L. Powell said:=20= "We have kept him contained, kept him in his box." The next day, he=20 said tellingly that Hussein "has not developed any significant=20 capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction." =A0=A0The events of Sept. 11, 2001, gave advocates of war the opening = they=20 needed. They tried immediately to tie Hussein to al Qaeda and the=20 terrorist attacks. Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld created an=20 Office of Special Plans in the Pentagon to analyze the intelligence for=20= war and bypass the traditional screening process. Vice President Cheney=20= relied on intelligence from Iraqi exiles and put pressure on=20 intelligence agencies to produce the desired result. =A0=A0The war in Afghanistan began in October with overwhelming support = in=20 Congress and the country. But the focus on Iraq continued behind the=20 scenes, and President Bush went along. In the Rose Garden on Nov. 26,=20 he said: "Afghanistan is still just the beginning." =A0=A0Three days later, Cheney publicly began to send signals about=20 attacking Iraq. On Nov. 29 he said: "I don't think it takes a genius to=20= figure out that this guy [Hussein] is clearly . . . a significant=20 potential problem for the region, for the United States, for everybody=20= with interests in the area." On Dec. 12 he raised the temperature: "If=20= I were Saddam Hussein, I'd be thinking very carefully about the future,=20= and I'd be looking very closely to see what happened to the Taliban in=20= Afghanistan." =A0=A0Next, Karl Rove, in a rare public stumble, made his own role = clear,=20 telling the Republican National Committee on Jan. 19, 2002, that the=20 war on terrorism could be used politically. Republicans could "go to=20 the country on this issue," he said. =A0=A0Ten days later, in his State of the Union address, President Bush=20= invoked the "axis of evil" -- Iraq, Iran and North Korea -- and we lost=20= our clear focus on al Qaeda. The address contained 12 paragraphs on=20 Afghanistan and 29 on the war on terrorism, but only one fleeting=20 mention of al Qaeda. It said nothing about the Taliban or Osama bin=20 Laden. =A0=A0In the following months, although bin Laden was still at large, = the=20 drumbeat on Iraq gradually drowned out those who felt Hussein was no=20 imminent threat. On Sept. 12 the president told the United Nations:=20 "Iraq likely maintains stockpiles of VX, mustard and other chemical=20 agents and has made several attempts to buy high-strength aluminum=20 tubes used to enrich uranium for a nuclear weapon." He said Iraq could=20= build a nuclear weapon "within a year" if Hussein obtained such=20 material. =A0=A0War on Iraq was clearly coming, but why make this statement in=20 September? As White House Chief of Staff Andrew H. Card Jr. said, "=46rom=20= a marketing point of view, you don't introduce new products in August."=20= The 2002 election campaigns were then entering the home stretch.=20 Election politics prevailed over foreign policy and national security.=20= The administration insisted on a vote in Congress to authorize the war=20= before Congress adjourned for the elections. Why? Because the debate=20 would distract attention from the troubled economy and the failed=20 effort to capture bin Laden. The shift in focus to Iraq could help=20 Republicans and divide Democrats. =A0=A0The tactic worked. Republicans voted almost unanimously for war = and=20 kept control of the House in the elections. Democrats were deeply=20 divided and lost their majority in the Senate. The White House could=20 use its control of Congress to get its way on key domestic priorities. =A0=A0The final step in the march to war was a feint to the United = Nations.=20 But Cheney, Rumsfeld and Deputy Defense Secretary Paul D. Wolfowitz had=20= convinced the president that war would be a cakewalk, with or without=20 the United Nations, and that our forces would be welcomed as=20 liberators. In March the war began. =A0=A0Hussein's brutal regime was not an adequate justification for war,=20= and the administration did not seriously try to make it one until long=20= after the war began and all the false justifications began to fall=20 apart. There was no imminent threat. Hussein had no nuclear weapons, no=20= arsenals of chemical or biological weapons, no connection to Sept. 11=20 and no plausible link to al Qaeda. We never should have gone to war for=20= ideological reasons driven by politics and based on manipulated=20 intelligence. =A0=A0Vast resources have been spent on the war that should have been = spent=20 on priorities at home. Our forces are stretched thin. Precious lives=20 have been lost. The war has made America more hated in the world and=20 made the war on terrorism harder to win. As Homeland Security Secretary=20= Tom Ridge said in announcing the latest higher alert: "Al Qaeda's=20 continued desire to carry out attacks against our homeland is perhaps=20 greater now than at any point since September 11th." =A0=A0The most fundamental decision a president ever makes is the = decision=20 to go to war. President Bush violated the trust that must exist between=20= government and the people. If Congress and the American people had=20 known the truth, America would never have gone to war in Iraq. No=20 president who does that to our country deserves to be reelected. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 20:30:24 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christine Murray Subject: Re: discrepancy between the amount of men and women in current po etry journals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Okay, I'll be the someone who asks the next, related, *loaded* questions--*loaded* that is, to unpack more assumptions than an armadillo's got armor (isn't Texas lore insufferable?): So how does one know whether one fits in the "male" or the "female" columns of quantifiable beings" and shouldn't that matter here? As well as: has anyone begun to move the questions via other intricately related, controversially "quantifiable," constructed categories such as these: --how many Native Americans do these journals publish? African-Americans? Mixed folks? --how many are upper eschelon college privileged, and how many are supporting their poetry writing only through working at so-called "unskilled" jobs like janitor, waitress (oh, sorry: "food server"), "data entry specialist,"? These are "mountains of things" (Tracy Chapman), complex, never easily quantified, though that is one place to begin. Thanks for sending out such an intriquing question whoever started this. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 18:42:51 -0800 Reply-To: kalamu@aol.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ishaq Organization: Selah7 http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html Subject: PUB: banana republic gang anthology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit PUB: banana republic gang anthology ============================== The Bandana Republic, an Anthology of Poetry & Prose by Gang Members and their Affiliates. Louis Rivera, Editor (Co-Founder); Bruce George, Managing Editor (Founder/Creator). Jim Brown(actor, football Hall Of Fame Award Winner) is going to write the Foreword. See attached submission guidelines for details. Only Current/former Gang Members and their affiliates both current/former need apply! Please spread the word! In Struggle, The Bandana Republic... The Bandana Republic: an anthology of Poetry and Prose by Gang Members & Affiliates Here's an opportunity for the entire planet to hear your truth, our truth, about both our desperation and our aspiration, straight up from the streets. Join the Bandana Republic: an anthology of poetry and prose by gang members and their affiliates. The question is: How do you want to represent? What do you see as part of our real deal (the shape of our condition, the hope that we never give up on, the dreams that we aspire to, the rope that pulls us down)? How do you see your clearest thoughts put on paper? Submission Guidelines Scope: The Bandana Republic is an anthology of creative literature, including poetry (Free Verse, Rap, Spoken Word, Haiku), short stories, letters, interviews written by folks who are either former or current gang members or closely affiliated. The editors of this Republic welcome any and all of our street brethren across the country to submit original material (poetry, prose, artwork, photographs, etc…) for consideration. We will equally consider material on any topic, in any form and according to how you wish to represent yourself. We want to put together the type of book that shows our full creative sides. Whether the material you send is specifically related to gang culture is beside the point. It is your creativity we are after. Poetry in every form, short stories, letters, interviews, artwork, and photography should be sent by email to: Louisreyesrivera@aol.com or to Bruce George at vze3cbjx@verizon.net. Material can also be sent by regular snail mail to the following address: Louis Reyes Rivera GPO Box 16 New York City 10116. If you want your work sent back to you, please include a self-addressed stamped envelope. Without the self-addressed stamped envelope, materials will not be returned. Payment: The creator of any material that is accepted into the anthology will receive a small honorarium. Each author will also receive a copy of The Bandana Republic with his/her submission included. All authors will retain ownership and copyrights over their own material. Please be advised that we will shy away from that which has already been published. If your material is accepted, payment can be made out to whomever the contributor assigns. We are not interested in violating your right to privacy. File Formats: All material submitted must be the author’s original work. Use of work that was done or created by others without permission is a violation of copyright laws. Send us your best work! Please use spell check on your computer/word processor or manually check your work before sending it. The editors reserve the right to make minor grammatical changes (with your approval) so that all materials conform to our guidelines. This will be a work of art that should be in the schools too! Poetry/Letter submission guidelines: Poetry and Letters cannot be more than up to 3 pages in length. Short stories, interviews and essays (political or social) should not be more than ten (10) pages in length and must be double-spaced, typewritten. Artwork and photographs should conform to a 6" by 9" format. If you wish to identify your gang affiliation, you are free to do so right beside your name {example: "Larry Sims, former member of The Black Spades}. If you do not wish to identify your gang affiliation that’s all right with us, too! If you wish to be identified by an alias, you are free to do that as well. Requirements: Please include with your submission your name/address or P.O. Box or e-mail address. Any questions or concerns about your submission can be sent to the editors. Terms & Conditions: A submission implies that you agree with the following terms: No submission will be returned without your inclusion of a self-addressed stamped envelope. If your work is not accepted we will either return it in your self-addressed stamped envelope or we will discard it. Submissions may not have been published by any other publishing company or publication. None of the contents may be derived from previously created publications or documents unless specifically noted. You authorize publication of your work to appear in The Bandana Republic and in any form that the editors have been able to acquire and distribute throughout the world. You agree to hold harmless the editors and publisher from any and all claims, suits and damages based on international copyright laws, including plagiarism or unauthorized use, or any other legally related issues. You have read the Terms & Conditions of Entry. You understand that the Terms & Conditions of Entry are part of this agreement and you agree to such Terms & Conditions of Entry. Submission Deadline: We should have received your materials no later than January 1, 2004. Entries submitted after that date might not be considered. SASE (Self-addressed stamped envelope)(Self-addressed stamped envelope) : Include a stamped self-addressed business-sized envelope so that your work can be returned to you along with notification of acceptance. Include a stamped self-addressed business-sized envelope so that your work can be returned to you along with notification of acceptance. Authorized Use: I, (YOUR NAME), authorize publication of the materials I sent in the anthology, The Bandana Republic (edited by Louis Reyes Rivera with Bruce George). I further authorize its use in translation into any language, and any other future compilation in book form derived therefrom and its distribution throughout the world. I further authorize use of my material as an excerpt that may appear on the Internet, CD-ROM, or DVD, for purposes of promoting or marketing the anthology, The Bandana Republic. I understand that I automatically retain all copyrights over my material and that its inclusion does not hinder my rights in any way beyond its publication in said anthology. ___________________________ (Name or signature of author) http://www.themoamper.homestead.com/files/The_Bandana_Republic_Complete_submission_guidelines.htm ############################################# -- - ___ Stay Strong "Peace sells but who's buying?" Megadeth "This mathematical rhythmatical mechanism enhances my wisdom of Islam, keeps me calm from doing you harm, when I attack, it's Vietnam" --HellRazah "It's not too good to stay in a white man's country too long" Mutabartuka http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html http://awol.objector.org/artistprofiles/welfarepoets.html http://ilovepoetry.com/search.asp?keywords=braithwaite&orderBy=date http://www.dpgrecordz.com/fredwreck/ http://www.lowliferecords.co.uk/ http://loudandoffensive.com/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/THCO2 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 21:51:37 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harriet Zinnes Subject: Re: call for submissions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To William Jmes Austin May I submit the following poem? What Is To Be Done? What is to be done and torn apart what is asunder breaks, startles, bangs foretells? It is doom to foretell. History is on the block. The noises resound. Boys squeal as their kites rise. The church on the corner is quiet. There are airplanes and cars, even stars. The clouds wander. The night is still. Are you there, Wanda Landowska? What music are you playing toniight? ------------------ Harriet Zinnes ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 19:04:40 -0800 Reply-To: antrobin@clipper.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anthony Robinson Subject: discrepancy/editing/women&men/ethnicity In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Christine Murray asks some great questions. For those of you who would like to read more perspectives on this issue, check out the Wom-Po archives. My post here generated some heat over there. Thanks to Annie Finch for distributing it there. In any case, I'll try to provide some answers to Christine's questions below: > So how does one know whether one fits in the "male" > or the "female" columns of quantifiable beings" and > shouldn't that matter here? Good question. One doesn't always know. That said, I try not to assume too much when I'm reading a submission. Plenty of people submit poems using first initials. I don't always know the gender of the poet I'm reading. Sometimes I think it's very important, other times, not so. I guess what I'm saying is there's no strict rule, but yeah, it should matter. > --how many Native Americans do these journals > publish? African-Americans? > Mixed folks? Ah...one of my favorite questions. Why? Because it's even more difficult to tell. How, for example, do you know whether the poem you are reading was written by a white guy? a black guy? a chinese guy? a canadian woman? and so forth. You can't always tell--by looking at the name, or the poem. I think I'm a good example of this. What "race/ethicity/sexual orientation" is Anthony Robinson? Can you tell from my name? My poems? The people I publish in my journal? Can people tell from my name that I'm a half-mexican, 3/8ths "white" (welsh, irish), one-eight native american male, age 31, nominally heterosexual? Does that make me mixed? If so, should editors take this into account? I knew a lot of MFA kids back in the day when I used to hang out near an MFA program who would enter with a name like Tom Smith, and leave the program named Tomas Garcia-Smith. Joseph would become Jose, Brandy would become Nalani, and so forth. That's an interesting move--motivated by...? I've actually spoken to some poets who are very clear about their motivation for doing this--re-christening oneself with an "ethnic" or at least "less-white" name may increase one's chances of getting published. I don't know if this is true or not. I haven't tried it. I want to represent a diverse group of writers in the pages of _The Canary_. On the other hand, I don't apply a magnifying glass to every submission in an attempt to figure out "who" this poet is. The work is the primary criteria for selection. That said, I can't help but to be aware of such things as the ratio of male to female poets published in my magazine, or any other. It's built into the language--most of us can "tell" whether most writers are male or female by their given names. Can you tell race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, by name? Far less frequently. What it came down to for us (Nick and Josh and I--Canary Editors) was realizing that we had been perhaps exercising a male bias in our editing procedure. It was, as far as I know, unconscious, and conditioned at least as much by the sheer number of submissions by men, as by our inherent maleness. That said, in trying the equalize the gender balance, we are not in any way "throwing a bone" to women poets, or trying to patronize them. I simply recognize that there are a ton of interesting women poets out there writing amazing poems--most of my favorite contemporary poets ARE women. Most of the people I have solicited have been women. Problem is, women haven't submitted or responded to solicitations with the same frequency as men. I don't think it's a bad thing to reject a perfectly good poem by a man to make room for an equally good poem by a woman--esp. when about 70% of what we read is written by men. I KNOW THERE'S GOOD POETRY OUT THERE. I think it's one of my responsibilities as an editor to make decisions like this--if women aren't submitting as frequently as men, I have no problem with asking more women for poems. Or waiting for more to come over the transom. > how many are upper eschelon college privileged, > and how many are > supporting their poetry writing only through working > at so-called > "unskilled" jobs like janitor, waitress (oh, sorry: > "food server"), "data > entry specialist,"? More former than latter, I'm sure. But that's built into po-biz, isn't it? Go to school, get MFA, submit poems...blah blah blah. Of course, there are plenty of relatively non-privileged folks who make it to college and beyond, and then "enter" the upper echelon as well, no? Thanks for continuing this discussion. AR __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 21:03:16 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Allegrezza Subject: new issue of moria and cfp Comments: cc: BRITISH-POETS@JISCMAIL.AC.UK, LISTSERV@JISCMAIL.AC.UK, Walter Daniel , Soul Sanction , Sheila Murphy , Rnmo , Richard C Williams , Raymond Farr , Ram Mehta , Rae , "R. Paul Craig" , Pennysparky , Paul Hardacre , Patricia Johnson , "Nicole. Tomlinson" , Nick Z Antosca , Nadine Moawad , Melissaps374@aol.com, Melanie McConnell , Mary Angela Nangini , Lisa Mansell , Leon Beachum , Lae , kristin wilt , Karoline Pinson , Jessica Laccetti , Jeff Davis , Jeff Brummel , Harrykstammer , Godsandmonsters6 , Erin Wilson , Eddie Watkins , Dylan Willoughby , Dan Zarrella , Archie Belanger , Ann Lederer , Anastasia Clark , "Amanda. Johnston" , Alex , Alieux casey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A new issue of _moria_ (www.moriapoetry.com) has just been posted. As well as a review of Maria Damon and mIEKAL aNd's _Literature Nation_, it contains poetry by: Camille Martin Peter Ganick Andrew Lundwall Trevor Landers Bruna Mori Ann Lederer Eileen Tabios Shane Plante Petra Backonja Crag Hill Sandra Simonds. As usual, I am looking for poetry, poetics articles, and reviews for future issues. Plus, I am on the lookout for reviewers. If you are interested in reviewing small press work, just send me an e-mail. Bill Allegrezza www.moriapoetry.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 22:52:02 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: tom bell Subject: Re: new issue of moria and cfp MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would be interested in doing some reviews. tom bell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Allegrezza" To: Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2004 9:03 PM Subject: new issue of moria and cfp > A new issue of _moria_ (www.moriapoetry.com) has just been posted. > As well as a review of Maria Damon and mIEKAL aNd's _Literature Nation_, it > contains poetry by: > > Camille Martin Peter Ganick Andrew Lundwall > Trevor Landers Bruna Mori Ann Lederer > Eileen Tabios Shane Plante Petra Backonja > Crag Hill Sandra Simonds. > > As usual, I am looking for poetry, poetics articles, and reviews for future > issues. Plus, I am on the lookout for reviewers. If you are interested in > reviewing small press work, just send me an e-mail. > > Bill Allegrezza > www.moriapoetry.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 19:16:15 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Susan M. Schultz" Subject: Tinfish numbers Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tinfish 13 had something on the order of 13 women and 16 men, including a collaboration. Actually, the collaboration was a second appearance; as we screwed the first one up so mightily, we tried again. Which makes 13 women and 15 men. Anyone interested in the issue of women and men in journals should look at the first issue of Chain, where the imbalance was discussed at length, and well. It's a real problem, and in order to maintain good balance, you have to ask women for work, usually. At least at first. When I started Tinfish I was deluged with work by men, some of which had been published elsewhere (I found out later). I couldn't get women to give me much of anything. The same imbalance is true, by the way, when I consider local (usually non-white writers in Hawai`i) writers and nonlocal ones. Local writers, who come from a culture that does not value self-promotion, submit less, and need to be solicited. Strange language, I know. Outside writers are much more willing to put themselves forward. Of our new chapbooks, 3 are by women and two by men (including Ho Chi Minh, who is defunct). By the way, I just picked up my own _No Guns, No Durian_. Once I get the screws, it'll be ready to ship. aloha, Susan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 00:33:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: MAX MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII MAX the purpose of a corporation is to maximize profits for its officers. there is no other reason for the existence of a corporation. a corporation is not bound by any regulations it can avoid. a corporation, like water, finds its way towards the maximum. a corporation should have no regard for human or other life. a so-called 'whistle-blower' is a traitor to a corporation and should be dealt with accordingly. a corporation should attempt to minimize competition any way possible. to critique a corporation is always besides the point. a corporation should heed criticism only to the extent that such criticism results in less maximization of profits. the purpose of a family is to maximize children for its parents. there is no other reason for the existence of a family. a family is not bound by any regulations it can avoid. a family, like water, finds its way towards the maximum. a family should have no regard for human or other life. a so-called 'whistle-blower' is a traitor to a family and should be dealt with accordingly. a family should attempt to minimize competition any way possible. to critique a family is always besides the point. a family should heed criticism only to the extent that such criticism results in less maximization of children. the purpose of a religion is to maximize spiritual benefit and control for its true believers. there is no other reason for the existence of a religion. a religion is not bound by any regulations it can avoid. a religion, like water, finds its way towards the maximum. a religion should have no regard for human or other life. a so-called 'whistle-blower' is a traitor to a religion and should be dealt with accordingly. a religion should attempt to minimize competition any way possible. to critique a religion is always besides the point. a religion should heed criticism only to the extent that such criticism results in less maximization of spiritual benefit and control. the purpose of a species is to maximize the gene-pool for its members. there is no other reason for the existence of a species. a species is not bound by any regulations it can avoid. a species, like water, finds its way towards the maximum. a species should have no regard for human or other life. a so-called 'whistle-blower' is a traitor to a species and should be dealt with accordingly. a species should attempt to minimize competition any way possible. to critique a species is always besides the point. a species should heed criticism only to the extent that such criticism results in less maximization of the gene-pool. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 01:01:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: SPOON-ANN: CFP - International Fiction Review (fwd) Comments: To: "WRYTING-L : Writing and Theory across Disciplines" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 11:49:27 -0400 From: "Laforge, Gabriel V." To: spoon-announcements@lists.village.Virginia.EDU Subject: SPOON-ANN: CFP - International Fiction Review [Spoon-Announcements is a moderated list for distributing info of wide enough interest without cross-posting. To unsub, send the message "unsubscribe spoon-announcements" to majordomo@lists.village.virginia.edu] Hello everyone, The IFR is seeking contact with scholars of literature who = are interested in writing essays and reviews on contemporary fiction literatue = and writers. If you are interested, please have a look at the CFP below. Thank you, Gabriel V. Laforge --=20 Gabriel V. Laforge Editorial Assistant, International Fiction Review University of New Brunswick Department of Culture and Language Studies Box 4400 Fredericton, N.B. Canada E3B 5A3 phone (506) 458-7715 fax (506) 447-3166 e-mail (editor): lorey@unb.ca http://www.lib.unb.ca/Texts/IFR/ ******************************************* THE INTERNATIONAL FICTION REVIEW Christoph Lorey, Editor University of New Brunswick Department of Culture and Language Studies Fredericton, N.B. Canada E3B 5A3 Phone: (506) 453 4636; Fax: (506) 447-3166; e-mail: ifr@unb.ca CALL FOR SUBMISSIONS OF ARTICLES The editor invites essays on contemporary fiction by international writers,= new and established, including minority writers. Equally welcome are essays on lite= rary and narrative theory, comparative studies of world fiction, and surveys of cont= emporary national literatures or writers. Contributors are invited to explore all na= rrative forms in any interdisciplinary, cross-cultural, and critical context. Please send submissions to the editor via mail or e-mail. ABOUT THE JOURNAL The International Fiction Review, now in its thirty-first year, is a review= ed scholarly periodical devoted to international fiction. It publishes articles and book= reviews. The journal has a world-wide circulation and a diverse readership which sha= res an interest in fictions of other cultures and language groups. The journal is = available online to subscribers at www.lib.unb.ca/Texts/IFR RECENT PUBLICATIONS The Quest for Community in American Postmodern Fiction^=D7The Politics and = Poetics of Philippine Festival in Rosca^=D2s State of War^=D7International Fiction vs.= Ethnic Autobiography^=D7Oral Tradition and Modern Storytelling: Revisiting Chinua = Achebe^=D2s Short Stories^=D7African Interests: White Liberalism and Resistance in Margaret L= aurence^=D7Early Precursors to the Egyptian Novel^=D7Writing as Tea Ceremony: Kawabata^=D2s = Geido Aesthetics For any further inquiries please contact the editor. With best wishes, Chris Lorey ******************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 00:06:09 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: alexander saliby Subject: One day in the Life of Alan S. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One day in the Life of Alan S.=20 (in his home in non-U.S.A Paradise) Alan waited an eternity; today, no one came to bring him his breakfast. = He was used to breakfast at the same time every day; nothing fancy, but = certainly timely. He preferred simple foods served in simple styles, = but he liked having it every day...whole wheat toast and black raspberry = jam, one egg poached, coffee, no cream, no sugar, and a small glass of = juice, preferably orange sans pips.=20 But this morning there was nothing. =20 Alan waited. He rose hungry. Waited, dressed, descended to the = kitchen. =20 No one was there. No mother, no house sitter, no aides, just an empty = room filled with miles of white walls and white tile floors that seemed = to stretch to an elongated, nearly sexual elasticity into the next = century. =20 Alan groped through the cupboard drawers and the cabinet tops searching = for...he wasn't sure exactly. =20 "How does she do that daily," he wondered. "Where are all these things = she puts together to make those breakfasts?" He was confused; he was = totally helpless; he was hungry. =20 The noise shattered his na=EFve, self-centered thoughts and angered him; = who were these people with their explosions? He moved to the doorway = looking for his mother, wondering what was keeping her from attending = his morning rituals. =20 Sirens wailed; lights flashed; children screamed, dogs hid under porches = and his cat was no where in sight. =20 "Where the hell is everybody," he shouted to himself? And he walk to = the front window to see what was causing the confusion in his daily = routine.=20 She was there, on the front lawn, her small frame wrapped in her clean = white terrycloth robe now drenched in the blood from her belly where the = shrapnel had lacerated deep into her visceral sections and ruptured the = Iliac artery causing her to have bled to death in just under 4 minutes.=20 Next to her red-lapped robe lay the remains of Irene; she had been on = her way to the mall intending to explode her arsenal at noon in the food = court; something had gone wrong and the explosives detonated too soon. = Instead of killing hoards of her enemies, Irene slew only herself, = Alan's mother, and a small tabby cat he had loved. =20 But they all died well, not having had an empire to control their = behaviors, so all is indeed well that ends well...=20 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 07:00:43 -0500 Reply-To: ron.silliman@gte.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Subject: Silliman's Blog Comments: To: WOM-PO , BRITISH-POETS@JISCMAIL.AC.UK, nanders1@swarthmore.edu, new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu, whpoets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ Heather Nagamai's "The Agenda" - Rube Goldberg Objectivism & the furious stasis of local government An intro to Antennae Bizarre-Misreading-of-the-Week Award: Mike Snider The Philadelphia Progressive Poetry Calendar "Write Like Soap," a poem on which one could stake a career in Rod Smith's Protective Immediacy (Four free books from Roof Books @ the EPC) An opportunity to feel ambivalent: Twentieth-Century American Poetics, edited by Dana Gioia, David Mason & Meg Schoerke (how new formalism neglects poets born in the 1930s) Density, density, density - What is it & what is its opposite? (reading Armantrout, Berssenbrugge, Godfrey & Corbett) Poems, drawing & hotel stationery - Bill Corbett's collaboration with John King In Florida Curtis Faville on Dickinson-Niedecker-Moore-Armantrout The gun as the verb in the syntax of cinema - shortchanging the reader/viewer in House of Sand & Fog Rae Armantrout's Up to Speed - A wider range & a darker tone in her poetry Dickinson - Niedecker - Armantrout: The trouble with tropes An explication of post-avant & the School of Quietude Nada's ring Ron Silliman forthcoming events in Chicago, Philadelphia, New York http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 08:52:25 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: discrepancy between the amount of men and women in current poetry journals In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable the gap isn't as large as it was...30 years ago. but i'm w/ mairead on this one. so what else is new. the problem is systemic and deep-rooted. kirby, i enjoyed your satire but it sorta missed the point. xo, all --md At 1:17 PM -0500 1/18/04, noah eli gordon wrote: >Being in that domestically unsettling phase of student life and--to be quit= e >honest-- purposefully stringing out such a phase for upwards of a decade, >what with =93graduate=94 and undergraduate work, my Post Office Box address= has >outlived many shared apartments and houses. It=92s the more tactile end of = the >connection to my personal imagined community of poets, publishers and >editors, making the short walk between my current apartment and the Post >Office, along with morning coffee, one of those routine defining rituals I >simultaneously can=92t seem to shake and wouldn=92t want to. It makes Sunda= ys >like this one a real drag! Yesterday=92s plunder (isn=92t =93physical=94 m= ail >always a treasure?) included the latest issue of Fence magazine, of which I >read the following pieces in the following order: Max Winter=92s tempered a= nd >compelling editorial response to the less compelling and unrestrained >polemic of Joan Houlihan=92s comments in her recent Boston Comment column; = the >wonderful exchange between Alice Notley and Edmund Berrigan; Robert >Paredez=92s poems; the reading list/contributor=92s notes pages. I didn=92t= pick >the magazine up again until much later that evening, after my partner, the >poet Sara Veglahn, had perused it=92s pages for a while. When I did return = to >it, the first thing she said was, =93There are 29 men and 14 women in that >issue.=94 In the interest of full self-disclosure, it was something I hadn= =92t >noticed, which, perhaps, is representative of much of the problem; if one= =92s >in the position of =96what? privilege? dominance? power? (although not the >statistical =93majority=94!)=97one is granted the luxury of blissful ignora= nce, >which constitutes a form of passive-sexism. Okay, so I=92ve got to check >myself! Sara and I talked a bit about why such a discrepancy exists=97do mo= re >men submit to journals?=97and decided to look more closely (for me at least= ) >at some of the current issues of different journals we have in our home. >What follows then is a break-down of gender as best as we could figure out. >Conscious of the myriad issues involved when discussing gender, and those >that arose via our exploration, we based our assumptions=97however flawed t= hey >are=97on either the pronouns used in contributor=92s notes or our understan= ding >of the relationship between the writer=92s first name the gender it signifi= es. >Of course, this is problematic=97what if folks self-identify differently, w= hat >about transgendered individuals, etc?? We did as best as we could and were >often unable to decided. Ultimately we left a column for =93unclear=94. We = also >decided to leave out all of the various translators=97hey, this aint a pape= r >or anything, just two poets trying to figure some things out. Here=92s our >rough and flawed breakdown: > >Journals with more men than women: > >Fence v6 n2: men 29/ women 14 >Kiosk 2: men 16/ women 7 >New American Writing 21: men 31/ women 17/ unclear 2 >Jubilat 7: men 16/ women 6/ unclear 1 >Chicago Review v49 n2: men 19/ women 5 >Fulcrum 2: around 50 men and 10 women >Colorado Review v30 n3: men 16/ women 12/ unclear 3 >Shiny 12: men 29/ women 11/ unclear 1 >New Review of Literature 1: men 20/ women 11/ unclear 1 >The Canary 2: men 34/ women 17 >3rd bed 8: men 18/ women 14/ unclear 2 >Magazine Cypress 2: men 13/ women 6 >6X6 7: men 4/ women 2 >Chain 9: men 42/ women 25/ unclear 9 >Verse v19 n3-v20 n1: men 61/ women 20/ unclear 4 >Crowd 2: men 26/ women 17/ unclear 1 >American Letters and Commentary 14: men 34/ women 29/ unclear 1 >Lungfull 12: men 25/ women 16/ unclear 1 >Aufgabe 2: men 27/ women 19 >Antennae 5: men 12/ women 5 >Baffling Combustions 3 (our now-defunct journal): men 5/ women 4 >Best of American Poetry 2002: men 49/ women 26 > >Journals with even numbers: > >Conjunctions 40 >The Ixnay Reader 2003 >Columbia 38 > >Journals with more women than men: > >Hanging Loose 83: women 20/ men 15/ unclear 1 >Factorial 2: women 16/ men 9 >Pom Pom 4: women 23/ men 11/ unclear 1 >26 issue B: women 22/ men 17 >No 2: women 15/ men 9/ unclear 1 > > >So here is a question to the larger poetry community: > >why is this the case? > >_________________________________________________________________ >Find high-speed =91net deals =97 comparison-shop your local providers here. >https://broadband.msn.com -- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 10:16:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Kane Subject: Tom Raworth Reading, January 28 Comments: To: writenet@twc.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII For those of you in or around Norwich, England on January 28 - Come hear Tom Raworth read his poems. 7 pm. UEA Drama Studio (University of East Anglia) Admission free. Wine will be served, and Tom will sign copies of his Collected Poems (Carcanet 2003), available for sale in the lobby. directions to UEA are available at http://www.uea.ac.uk/how_to_find.html for more info email dkane@panix.com best, --daniel ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 09:11:58 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: reading in SF, CA Jan. 22 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Catherine Daly will be reading at the Geary St. Reading Series at Caf=E9 Melroy, 835 Geary Street, SF, Thursday, January 22, at 7 pm with Denise Newman and Laynie Browne. Thanks, Catherine=20 cadaly@pacbell.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 09:20:47 -0800 Reply-To: kalamu@aol.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ishaq Organization: Selah7 http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html Subject: PUB: banana republic gang anthology (extended the deadline to September 2004) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit PUB: banana republic gang anthology (extended the deadline to September 2004) ============================== The Bandana Republic, an Anthology of Poetry & Prose by Gang Members and their Affiliates. Louis Rivera, Editor (Co-Founder); Bruce George, Managing Editor (Founder/Creator). Jim Brown(actor, football Hall Of Fame Award Winner) is going to write the Foreword. See attached submission guidelines for details. Only Current/former Gang Members and their affiliates both current/former need apply! Please spread the word! In Struggle, The Bandana Republic... The Bandana Republic: an anthology of Poetry and Prose by Gang Members & Affiliates Here's an opportunity for the entire planet to hear your truth, our truth, about both our desperation and our aspiration, straight up from the streets. Join the Bandana Republic: an anthology of poetry and prose by gang members and their affiliates. The question is: How do you want to represent? What do you see as part of our real deal (the shape of our condition, the hope that we never give up on, the dreams that we aspire to, the rope that pulls us down)? How do you see your clearest thoughts put on paper? Submission Guidelines Scope: The Bandana Republic is an anthology of creative literature, including poetry (Free Verse, Rap, Spoken Word, Haiku), short stories, letters, interviews written by folks who are either former or current gang members or closely affiliated. The editors of this Republic welcome any and all of our street brethren across the country to submit original material (poetry, prose, artwork, photographs, etc…) for consideration. We will equally consider material on any topic, in any form and according to how you wish to represent yourself. We want to put together the type of book that shows our full creative sides. Whether the material you send is specifically related to gang culture is beside the point. It is your creativity we are after. Poetry in every form, short stories, letters, interviews, artwork, and photography should be sent by email to: Louisreyesrivera@aol.com or to Bruce George at vze3cbjx@verizon.net. Material can also be sent by regular snail mail to the following address: Louis Reyes Rivera GPO Box 16 New York City 10116. If you want your work sent back to you, please include a self-addressed stamped envelope. Without the self-addressed stamped envelope, materials will not be returned. Payment: The creator of any material that is accepted into the anthology will receive a small honorarium. Each author will also receive a copy of The Bandana Republic with his/her submission included. All authors will retain ownership and copyrights over their own material. Please be advised that we will shy away from that which has already been published. If your material is accepted, payment can be made out to whomever the contributor assigns. We are not interested in violating your right to privacy. File Formats: All material submitted must be the author’s original work. Use of work that was done or created by others without permission is a violation of copyright laws. Send us your best work! Please use spell check on your computer/word processor or manually check your work before sending it. The editors reserve the right to make minor grammatical changes (with your approval) so that all materials conform to our guidelines. This will be a work of art that should be in the schools too! Poetry/Letter submission guidelines: Poetry and Letters cannot be more than up to 3 pages in length. Short stories, interviews and essays (political or social) should not be more than ten (10) pages in length and must be double-spaced, typewritten. Artwork and photographs should conform to a 6" by 9" format. If you wish to identify your gang affiliation, you are free to do so right beside your name {example: "Larry Sims, former member of The Black Spades}. If you do not wish to identify your gang affiliation that’s all right with us, too! If you wish to be identified by an alias, you are free to do that as well. Requirements: Please include with your submission your name/address or P.O. Box or e-mail address. Any questions or concerns about your submission can be sent to the editors. Terms & Conditions: A submission implies that you agree with the following terms: No submission will be returned without your inclusion of a self-addressed stamped envelope. If your work is not accepted we will either return it in your self-addressed stamped envelope or we will discard it. Submissions may not have been published by any other publishing company or publication. None of the contents may be derived from previously created publications or documents unless specifically noted. You authorize publication of your work to appear in The Bandana Republic and in any form that the editors have been able to acquire and distribute throughout the world. You agree to hold harmless the editors and publisher from any and all claims, suits and damages based on international copyright laws, including plagiarism or unauthorized use, or any other legally related issues. You have read the Terms & Conditions of Entry. You understand that the Terms & Conditions of Entry are part of this agreement and you agree to such Terms & Conditions of Entry. Submission Deadline: We should have received your materials no later than September 2004. Entries submitted after that date might not be considered. SASE (Self-addressed stamped envelope)(Self-addressed stamped envelope) : Include a stamped self-addressed business-sized envelope so that your work can be returned to you along with notification of acceptance. Include a stamped self-addressed business-sized envelope so that your work can be returned to you along with notification of acceptance. Authorized Use: I, (YOUR NAME), authorize publication of the materials I sent in the anthology, The Bandana Republic (edited by Louis Reyes Rivera with Bruce George). I further authorize its use in translation into any language, and any other future compilation in book form derived therefrom and its distribution throughout the world. I further authorize use of my material as an excerpt that may appear on the Internet, CD-ROM, or DVD, for purposes of promoting or marketing the anthology, The Bandana Republic. I understand that I automatically retain all copyrights over my material and that its inclusion does not hinder my rights in any way beyond its publication in said anthology. ___________________________ (Name or signature of author) http://www.themoamper.homestead.com/files/The_Bandana_Republic_Complete_submission_guidelines.htm ############################################# -- - ___ Stay Strong "Peace sells but who's buying?" Megadeth "This mathematical rhythmatical mechanism enhances my wisdom of Islam, keeps me calm from doing you harm, when I attack, it's Vietnam" --HellRazah "It's not too good to stay in a white man's country too long" Mutabartuka http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html http://awol.objector.org/artistprofiles/welfarepoets.html http://ilovepoetry.com/search.asp?keywords=braithwaite&orderBy=date http://www.dpgrecordz.com/fredwreck/ http://www.lowliferecords.co.uk/ http://loudandoffensive.com/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/THCO2 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 09:38:42 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Max Winter Subject: Discrepancies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Dear Noah, On reading your recent tallying of the sex breakdown in literary magazines, and noticing that Fence was at the top of a list of magazines said to be indicators of a discrepancy between the number of women vs. men published, I was moved to do a bit of research and found that, at least as far as Fence is concerned, the observation doesn’t hold much weight. By and large, the numbers I came up with, issue for issue, were too close to be indicative of anything, especially given that the magazine’s book imprint has printed, to date, 7 books by women and 3 by men, and that the magazine even sponsors a book contest (the Alberta prize) solely for women. Come on, now. What you're really talking about is a matter of female *presence* in literary magazines, a far more subtle and un-quantifiable concept. Rather than counting the number of poets, why not count the number of pages those poets' work takes up? But then the question arises: why do so much counting? And why place Fence at the top of the list? Especially when it doesn’t seem that you, or Sara Veglahn for that matter, even read the magazine very thoroughly, by your own admission. I don’t mean to seem shrill--but the reasoning you’re using doesn’t seem entirely seaworthy. Am I wrong? Max Winter PS--I’m glad you liked the introduction. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 12:45:08 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: Re: Discrepancies In-Reply-To: <20040119173842.41539.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable but mrs. lincoln, how was the play? Frankie say RELAX. The poetry editor doth protest too much. on 1/19/04 1:38 PM, Max Winter at maxw28@YAHOO.COM wrote: > Dear Noah, >=20 > On reading your recent tallying of the sex breakdown in literary magazine= s, > and > noticing that Fence was at the top of a list of magazines said to be > indicators of a > discrepancy between the number of women vs. men published, I was moved to= do a > bit > of research and found that, at least as far as Fence is concerned, the > observation > doesn=92t hold much weight. By and large, the numbers I came up with, issue= for > issue, > were too close to be indicative of anything, especially given that the > magazine=92s > book imprint has printed, to date, 7 books by women and 3 by men, and tha= t the > magazine even sponsors a book contest (the Alberta prize) solely for wome= n. > Come on, > now. What you're really talking about is a matter of female *presence* in > literary > magazines, a far more subtle and un-quantifiable concept. Rather than cou= nting > the > number of poets, why not count the number of pages those poets' work take= s up? > But > then the question arises: why do so much counting? And why place Fence at= the > top of > the list? Especially when it doesn=92t seem that you, or Sara Veglahn for t= hat > matter, > even read the magazine very thoroughly, by your own admission. I don=92t me= an to > seem > shrill--but the reasoning you=92re using doesn=92t seem entirely seaworthy. A= m I > wrong? >=20 > Max Winter >=20 > PS--I=92m glad you liked the introduction. >=20 >=20 > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes > http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus >=20 >=20 --=20 David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://boogcity.blog-city.com/ T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 09:46:36 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: discrepancy between the amount of men and women in current poetryjournals In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20040118145557.033ced30@mail.earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wonder if, since I believe the number of small press books of poetry published by women and by men is somewhat similar, women go to book more quickly? With the page count thing: are women writing longer poems? B/W Gloria: in academic journals, many female academics seem to display more anxiety about qualifications than their male colleagues. Are the qualifications qualifications? I know that in technology, I had more anxiety about my qualifications, more difficulty proving my qualifications / they were more readily called into question than those of my male peers. I have less hubris? Frustrate expectation? Am too short? There is also research that more attractive people of both sexes are more successful in general -- a sort of physical embodiment of accepted standards? Are successful poets tall like Anne Waldman and Maureen Owen and Charles Olson? Or, what about all those boys in Armani suits with big titles? I wonder that female-edited publications and presses tend to publish more gender-balanced lists / issues, when there is some research that indicates professional and upper management women (as opposed to, I guess, artists, academics, etc.) aren't particularly woman-friendly employers / managers. But I burned out in technology, and teaching, even at the college level, is far more equitable. It was odd to be working as the manager of the SONY data center by day and teaching at LA Southwest (the CC founded after the Watts riots) after work, going from a fairly diversified environment (data center: dull swing shift jobs -- lots of minorities and some women -- outside ops, all white men) to a campus where the only white women were the English teachers. "Women's poetry" is quite different from poetry written by women, just as there are all sorts of people who are not writing hyphenated verse. But Sojourner and Calyx are not correctives (for The Sewanee Review, The Hudson Review, The New Criterion...). Catherine Daly 5'3 & 3/4" cadaly@pacbell.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 10:29:28 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gloria Frym Subject: Re: discrepancy between the amount of men and women in current poetryjournals In-Reply-To: <002e01c3deb4$2fa61940$220110ac@CADALY> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit While issues of publication are nominally related to credentials and teaching college, after all this interesting discussion, I think we might now separate them. I am much less concerned with the publication of poetry and parity, since, as several people have already expressed, poetry magazines and presses are mostly small operations edited by people who have distinct aesthetic tastes, and most women don't want to be published just because they're women, nor do they want to be termed "women poets" or be branded by any other ghettoizing nomenclature. I even have a problem with Women Studies, because it's a handy institutionalized way of channeling women, some with degrees, such as Angela Davis, in philosophy, anthropology, sociology, etc. I know plenty of women who hold joint appointments in Women's Studies and another dept., before they're actually tenured. I'm not sure this is by choice. But back to the issue of men going for both MFAs and PhDs--this is becoming a small epidemic. As the competition for jobs heightens, the younger men seem (conveniently, all the ones I know who did this were/are married) to understand that a PhD in English will not only insure a creative writing tenure track job, but also a possible position in an English Dept. So it's aggressive career thinking on their part, isn't it? Not every writer is suited for PhD study. In fact, it's sort of a kiss of death, because a poet who does doctoral work often has to sacrifice art for many years in order to traffic in the language of academia. Then one has to find a suitable tenure track position. Then one has to work several years in order to get tenure. All these years detract from productive art making, for the most part. And frankly, why do artists, and I mean poets and writers, need PhDs anyway? It is entirely possible to teach literature from the perspective of a working writer, and perhaps more useful to students who intend on writing, and not becoming professional readers. Just for the record, Maureen Owen isn't very much taller than you, Catherine. And in the literary world, looks can actually work against a woman--she may not be taken as seriously if she is too attractive. Someone, in a previous email, noted that aggressivity is the key to functioning in a competitive atmosphere, especially one in which the spoils are so small and the politics so nasty. I wouldn't agree with a single thing Henry Kissinger ever said except this: when asked by an interviewer how he felt about going back to academia after all those years as a powerful policy maker, he replied: "Ach, it's terrible, and the politics are much vorse!" Gloria Frym On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 09:46:36 -0800 Catherine Daly wrote: >I wonder if, since I believe the number of small press books of poetry >published by women and by men is somewhat similar, women go to book more >quickly? > >With the page count thing: are women writing longer poems? > >B/W Gloria: in academic journals, many female academics seem to display >more anxiety about qualifications than their male colleagues. Are the >qualifications qualifications? I know that in technology, I had more >anxiety about my qualifications, more difficulty proving my >qualifications / they were more readily called into question than those >of my male peers. I have less hubris? Frustrate expectation? Am too >short? > >There is also research that more attractive people of both sexes are >more successful in general -- a sort of physical embodiment of accepted >standards? Are successful poets tall like Anne Waldman and Maureen Owen >and Charles Olson? Or, what about all those boys in Armani suits with >big titles? > >I wonder that female-edited publications and presses tend to publish >more gender-balanced lists / issues, when there is some research that >indicates professional and upper management women (as opposed to, I >guess, artists, academics, etc.) aren't particularly woman-friendly >employers / managers. > >But I burned out in technology, and teaching, even at the college level, >is far more equitable. It was odd to be working as the manager of the >SONY data center by day and teaching at LA Southwest (the CC founded >after the Watts riots) after work, going from a fairly diversified >environment (data center: dull swing shift jobs -- lots of minorities >and some women -- outside ops, all white men) to a campus where the only >white women were the English teachers. > >"Women's poetry" is quite different from poetry written by women, just >as there are all sorts of people who are not writing hyphenated verse. >But Sojourner and Calyx are not correctives (for The Sewanee Review, The >Hudson Review, The New Criterion...). > >Catherine Daly >5'3 & 3/4" >cadaly@pacbell.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 14:16:24 -0500 Reply-To: olsonjk@delhi.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kirby Olson Organization: SUNY Delhi Subject: Re: WORK ETHIC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii My nerves are going again reading this thread. When you think of the amazing sports champions -- people like Muhammad Ali, or great basketball players like Michael Jordan -- you're talking about folks who worked ten hour days for twenty years to get to the level they're at. Have you listened to Ginger Baker play drums in the early Cream records? Try Sunshine of Your Love, for instance, and note his incredibly precise snare drums -- somebody pointed out to me he's playing a reversal of the usual snare drums -- generally the backbeat snare is on the 2nd and 4th but he's hitting the first and third -- and hitting very precise 1/16ths notes with the bass drums as he doubles the beat at the end. It's amazingly subtle and precise and brilliant. Now if any of us tried to do that -- even if they had 20 years to practice -- well, speaking for myself it's just not in me. I know I couldn't do that, or play Clapton's guitar, or even sing at Clapton's level. It's not in me no matter how hard I might work. Someone like Marianne Moore had an almost monstrous dedication to her art. She would work for six months on a poem -- reading hundreds of books and clearing out her entire life to work on her poems. She had only 100 poems that she thought were good at the end of her life. Corso devoted every minute of every waking day to his art as a young man. A monstrous work ethic. Even in his thirties he would disappear for six months and do nothing else but work on poems. Rimbaud had this same monstrous work ethic. He learned languages in the desert, and could work at a dictionary for 14 hour days. The man had a fantastic focus and concentration. I know I could never be a Michael Jordan. His talent is way beyond whatever level I could ever have attained. Plus, this wasn't in me. When I read these crybaby scribbles I just laugh and realize that nobody much has a work ethic any more. You have to burn the entire rest of your life if you want to be great at something. Look at Olympic athletes -- they have no personal life, they do nothing but work at their sport -- ten to fifteen years. And when they do what they do, they can dazzle us, and we marvel. Twenty minutes a day on poetry isn't going to get anybody anywhere that's going to amaze anybody. If you work at poetry -- and you have talent at it -- even if you are quite short -- then you must work at it all day and devote your life to it. If you do this in a half-assed way and clog your life with other things, what you write is not going to matter. To work for twenty minutes a day and then spend 16 hours wondering why nobody is reading, or planning a national mandate so that you are not only read, but people are forced to read and buy your work, then you should be apprised of the reality. Even if you can make everybody read your work, it won't matter. Richard Brautigan would disappear for years to work on his art. Charles Olson spent decades holed up and working on his poetry. Emily Dickinson did, too. I'm sure that Amiri Bakara and Gwendolyn Brooks did, too. Ginsberg did early on, but then he became a popular figure, and his poetry became a sad stupid reminder of his earlier work. Let's think about work ethic. That's the way to get ahead in this country. All the whining is a waste of effort that could go into the poem. I'm not much of a poet -- I used to work hard at it but I have too many things going on now. I want to write maybe another book or two of criticism, and I like to play with poetry, but I don't expect to overtake Charles Olson or Gregory Corso at this rate. Please let's just try to be realistic. Now get to work and shut up. If you work for twenty years at ten hours a day, and you have talent, and still you are not published, then you can come whining. Part of a poet's genius is clearing out their life. If you can't even manage that, then forget about it. I can't, but you don't hear me whining. -- Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 11:22:17 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: travis ortiz Subject: Tuumba Press: Devotional Cinema by Nathaniel Dorsky In-Reply-To: <0F30C4B6-4A26-11D8-AF53-003065AC6058@sonic.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lyn Hejinian asked me to forward the following publication announcement to the list: Devotional Cinema by Nathaniel Dorsky Tuumba Press announces the publication on December 31, 2003 of Devotional Cinema, by Nathaniel Dorsky About the book:=20 Kathleen Tyner (author of Literacy in A Digital World), writes of this book as follows: =93Devotional Cinema, reprised from filmmaker Nathaniel Dorksy=92s lecture on religion and cinema at Princeton University, is a rare treasure of penetrating insight into the language of film. In a compelling style, somewhere between a Zen koan and a Victorian love story, Devotional Cinema makes the case for mindful viewing as a transcendent experience. In the process, Dorsky reflects upon the role of filmmaking in faith, prayer, pleasure, and the renewal of the human spirit. For Dorsky, the material nature of film illuminates a path to devotion. Devotional Cinema is a guide for makers and viewers who, like Dorsky, seek the =91elemental glory=92 of film.=94 In this perspicacious text, Nathaniel Dorsky discusses the conjunction of religion and film from the vantage of a devotee. The crux of his discussion is a nuanced understanding of =93devotion=94 not as an = experience specific to religion but rather as =93the opening or the interruption = that allows us to experience what is hidden and accept with our hearts our given situation.=94=20 Moving through meditations on image-moments in works by certain key filmmakers (Carl Theodor Dreyer, Yasujiro Ozu, Michelangelo Antonioni, and Roberto Rossellini), Dorsky arrives at the heart of what constitutes a devotional practice. It is metaphysical and technical; this lovely little masterpiece is about the medium of experience, the projection of devotion, the making of art. About the author:=20 Long a figure of interest to many contemporary American poets, Nathaniel Dorsky has been making and exhibiting avant-garde films since 1964. He now lives in San Francisco where he makes a living as a film editor. His works have been shown internationally and are in the permanent collections of the Museum of Modern Art (New York), the Pacific Film Archive (Berkeley), Image Forum (Tokyo), Les Archives du film exp=E9rimental d=92Avignon, and Le Centre Pompidou (Paris) as well = as many universities. Among his better known works are Summerwind (1965), Hours for Jerome (1966-70, 1982), Pneuma, Alaya (1976-87), Variations (1992-98), Arbor Vitae (2000) and The Visitation (2002). About the press: Tuumba Press was founded by Lyn Hejinian in 1976, and between then and 1984 Hejinian produced 50 handset letterpress chapbooks. Tuumba was revived in 1999 to publish (in conjunction with Leslie Scalapino=92s = O Books) Uxudo, by Anne Tardos. A second major publication, Red Car Goes By: Selected Poems of Jack Collom, followed, and since then Orchid Jetsam (by Leslie Scalapino, writing under the name Dee Goda) and Slowly (by Lyn Hejinian) have been published by Tuumba in its current incarnation. Lyn Hejinian remains the editor; the artistic director is Ree Katrak; Colin Dingler serves as editorial and production assistant. Ordering information:=20 Devotional Cinema may be ordered from Small Press Distribution, 1341 Seventh Street, Berkeley, CA 94710-1403; phone 510-524-1668 or toll-free 800-869-7553; e-mail: orders@spd.org. Title: Devotional Cinema Contact: Lyn Hejinian Author: Nathaniel Dorsky phone: 510-548-1817 Price: $10 fax: 510-704-8350 Pages: 56 Tuumba Press Publication Date: December 31, 2003 2639 Russell Street ISBN 1-931157-05-7 Berkeley, CA 94705-2131 # # # ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 13:28:23 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: WORK ETHIC In-Reply-To: <400C2D07.E1179DD9@delhi.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Certainly he's a good drummer in the context of early rock music, but reversing the accent in 4/4 is something any good jazz drummer can do. If your looking for drumming skill which is mind boggling, tala cycles in tabla hand drumming uses mathematical sequences, sometimes adding up to dozens of beats to keep in mind. An interesting example is one in 10 1/2 beats, divided 1 1/2 + 1 1/2 + 1 1/2 + 1 1/2 + 1 1/2 + 1 1/2 + 1 1/2. Here's a basic web page about talas which describes how they are composed. Each beat also has an accompanying vocalization. http://www.ancient-future.com/theka.html On Monday, January 19, 2004, at 01:16 PM, Kirby Olson wrote: > > > Have you listened to Ginger Baker play drums in the early Cream > records? Try Sunshine > of Your Love, for instance, and note his incredibly precise snare > drums -- somebody > pointed out to me he's playing a reversal of the usual snare drums -- > generally the > backbeat snare is on the 2nd and 4th but he's hitting the first and > third -- and hitting > very precise 1/16ths notes with the bass drums as he doubles the beat > at the end. It's > amazingly subtle and precise and brilliant. Now if any of us tried to > do that -- even > if they had 20 years to practice -- well, speaking for myself it's > just not in me. I > know I couldn't do that, or play Clapton's guitar, or even sing at > Clapton's level. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 14:47:03 -0500 Reply-To: olsonjk@delhi.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kirby Olson Organization: SUNY Delhi Subject: Diversity & its simulation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Tony, what you say here is originally what got me so suspicious of the > new credentials required by publishing houses, English departments, and > so on -- for a sort of "diversity" -- > > > I knew a lot of MFA kids back in the > > day when I used to hang out near an MFA program who > > would enter with a name like Tom Smith, and leave the > > program named Tomas Garcia-Smith. Joseph would become > > Jose, Brandy would become Nalani, and so forth. That's > > an interesting move--motivated by...? I've actually > > spoken to some poets who are very clear about their > > motivation for doing this--re-christening oneself with > > an "ethnic" or at least "less-white" name may increase > > one's chances of getting published. > > I found it amazing in graduate school how many people suddenly "came > out" when they realized it was in their best interests to do so. I > worked in the dance program as a secretary and the head of the dance > program -- a woman named -- I'm going to leave it out -- told me one day on Martin > Luther King Day -- that she had once again been invited to speak out on > the topic of being a minority. She had claimed that she was an American > Indian on her application for the job. On the basis of that, she had > been hired. She had also gotten preferential mortgage rates on the same > basis. She felt guilty. I am such a good listener. I took this all > in, and thought, she should be dropped on her head from a great height (I am so Lutheran). > > She had a poster of Chief Seattle on her door with his famous speech (he > never said the things it is claimed that he said -- his famous speech > was created by a screenwriter for a Southern Baptist film documentary -- > he mentions buffaloes for instance and telegraph wires -- those things > did not exist in the Seattle of his day), and she said that her > boyfriend of the time had encouraged her to tell this lie. She also > said that her father DID call her and her siblings "wild Indians" from > time to time. This was apparently enough to declare herself an American > Indian! > > She had almost no dance background. A couple of years in the Idaho > ballet or something. > > But it got her the job. She is now at Amherst or some place like that > in Massachusetts. Maybe Hampshire. I can't remember. There are > hundreds of people like that floating around. > > Technically, the department was wrong for having hired her on that > basis. They should be looking at qualifications. But bleeding-heart > liberals want to be nice, and in doing so, they allow fraud like this to > take place. > > It is taking place all over the country. Almost nobody is what they say > they are. > > There are even some writers who have had sex-change operations (I know > of only one, and am too afraid to mention the name, because this guy is > crazy) who have turned from man into woman in order to get published. I > don't know that many people, so if I know of one clear case out of the > 200 or so people that I actually know, then there are others. > > Many many people who claim to be gay are not, or are so only in order to > get preferential treatment. > > A real gay person is oriented toward the same sex from childhood. If > you suddenly realize you are gay at 25 when it seems that you can get a > job and be taken seriously if you are gay, you are probably not really > gay. You are just an opportunist. > > Technically you have to be on a tribal roll in order to be considered an > American Indian. This is fairly easy to arrange if you have enough > money. I know of several artists who have gone this route. With ten > thousand dollars, and a little time and charm, you can be put on a > tribal role. A lot of people have this kind of money (class), and are > only too happy to get the American Indian credential. > > Meanwhile, there are real victims of oppression. Class is the truly > oppressive distinction. But of course that can be faked, too. The rock > band The Clash mostly went to private schools (what they call public > schools in England) but check out their accents. Poseurs. > > If you come from the upper classes -- if your father was a professor at > Harvard, for instance, and you think you are oppressed, you're fooling > yourself, but I doubt if you were very far behind the starting line. I > would say in fact that you were in front of it, and well in front of it. But people are shameless > today. > > And my excuse? I'm statistically short compared to the great writers, so what > on earth am I going to do? > > I think that beautiful women and very large men have it made, and will > never have to worry about what to eat, only perhaps what to choose from > the menu. but this doesn't bother me, because I have seen the coming of > the Lord, you see, and find all of this world and its machinations from within a Darwinian paradigm. > If you can get a niche in the food chain by assuming camouflage, then why not? Animals do it all the > time. And if people don't believe in anything higher than the animal realm what's to prevent them > from acting like animals? > > -- Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 13:46:39 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: Re: WORK ETHIC/Poe's Birthday Today! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed gINGER bAKER--an idol of mine in what we called "high" school--in part due to his addiction to amphetemines--we heard a rumor that the Mighty Speed Freak had died--and buried some dexidrine and preludins and methamphetemine in a cigar box with photo of him-- when we learned he was alive, we dug up the box--and celebrated-- Baker made some interesting records while living long time in Africa--especially two with Fela Ransome Kuit-- i finally got to meet Ginger in the ealry eighties--he was touring with two Italians on guitars--as had moved to Italy-- talking with him and helping load up the insturments and etc--i noticedt hat on his drums, on each one--only one spot was marked--so that he had with machine like precision just kept hitting that one spot-- i had never seen this before-- and so the lore of Ginger continued . . . also Happy Birthday to Edgaar Allen Poe! and Happy MLK Day! Not the color of the skin, but the content of the character--keep the dream alive by living it-- david-baptiste >From: mIEKAL aND >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: WORK ETHIC >Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 13:28:23 -0600 > >Certainly he's a good drummer in the context of early rock music, but >reversing the accent in 4/4 is something any good jazz drummer can do. >If your looking for drumming skill which is mind boggling, tala cycles >in tabla hand drumming uses mathematical sequences, sometimes adding up >to dozens of beats to keep in mind. An interesting example is one in >10 1/2 beats, divided 1 1/2 + 1 1/2 + 1 1/2 + 1 1/2 + 1 1/2 + 1 1/2 + 1 >1/2. Here's a basic web page about talas which describes how they are >composed. Each beat also has an accompanying vocalization. > >http://www.ancient-future.com/theka.html > > >On Monday, January 19, 2004, at 01:16 PM, Kirby Olson wrote: > >> >> >>Have you listened to Ginger Baker play drums in the early Cream >>records? Try Sunshine >>of Your Love, for instance, and note his incredibly precise snare >>drums -- somebody >>pointed out to me he's playing a reversal of the usual snare drums -- >>generally the >>backbeat snare is on the 2nd and 4th but he's hitting the first and >>third -- and hitting >>very precise 1/16ths notes with the bass drums as he doubles the beat >>at the end. It's >>amazingly subtle and precise and brilliant. Now if any of us tried to >>do that -- even >>if they had 20 years to practice -- well, speaking for myself it's >>just not in me. I >>know I couldn't do that, or play Clapton's guitar, or even sing at >>Clapton's level. _________________________________________________________________ There are now three new levels of MSN Hotmail Extra Storage! Learn more. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=hotmail/es2&ST=1 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 20:51:38 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karl-Erik Tallmo Subject: Re: WORK ETHIC In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" http://www.nisus.se/newsounds/toon_din_ke_dah.slow.ram /Karl-Erik Tallmo _________________________________________________________________ KARL-ERIK TALLMO, poet, writer, artist, journalist, living in Stockholm, Sweden. MAGAZINE: http://art-bin.com ARTWORK, WRITINGS etc.: http://www.nisus.se/tallmo/ __________________________________________________________________ mIEKAL aND wrote: >Certainly he's a good drummer in the context of early rock music, but >reversing the accent in 4/4 is something any good jazz drummer can do. >If your looking for drumming skill which is mind boggling, tala cycles >in tabla hand drumming uses mathematical sequences, sometimes adding up >to dozens of beats to keep in mind. An interesting example is one in >10 1/2 beats, divided 1 1/2 + 1 1/2 + 1 1/2 + 1 1/2 + 1 1/2 + 1 1/2 + 1 >1/2. Here's a basic web page about talas which describes how they are >composed. Each beat also has an accompanying vocalization. > >http://www.ancient-future.com/theka.html > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 11:54:56 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Weishaus Subject: Re: WORK ETHIC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Excellent, Kirby, although it's a bit more complex than just writing poems. The richness of a poem comes from the richness of the poet's life. Maybe walking city streets, or backpacking, or from one's spiritual life, or love life. And research too, lots of reading, looking, listening, arguing, attending to others too, is all part of a poet's work. It's a full day, everyday of one's life. Best, Joel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirby Olson" To: Sent: Monday, January 19, 2004 11:16 AM Subject: Re: WORK ETHIC > My nerves are going again reading this thread. > > When you think of the amazing sports champions -- people like Muhammad Ali, or great > basketball players like Michael Jordan -- you're talking about folks who worked ten hour > days for twenty years to get to the level they're at. > > Have you listened to Ginger Baker play drums in the early Cream records? Try Sunshine > of Your Love, for instance, and note his incredibly precise snare drums -- somebody > pointed out to me he's playing a reversal of the usual snare drums -- generally the > backbeat snare is on the 2nd and 4th but he's hitting the first and third -- and hitting > very precise 1/16ths notes with the bass drums as he doubles the beat at the end. It's > amazingly subtle and precise and brilliant. Now if any of us tried to do that -- even > if they had 20 years to practice -- well, speaking for myself it's just not in me. I > know I couldn't do that, or play Clapton's guitar, or even sing at Clapton's level. > > It's not in me no matter how hard I might work. > > Someone like Marianne Moore had an almost monstrous dedication to her art. She would > work for six months on a poem -- reading hundreds of books and clearing out her entire > life to work on her poems. She had only 100 poems that she thought were good at the end > of her life. > > Corso devoted every minute of every waking day to his art as a young man. A monstrous > work ethic. Even in his thirties he would disappear for six months and do nothing else > but work on poems. > > Rimbaud had this same monstrous work ethic. He learned languages in the desert, and > could work at a dictionary for 14 hour days. The man had a fantastic focus and > concentration. > > I know I could never be a Michael Jordan. His talent is way beyond whatever level I > could ever have attained. > > Plus, this wasn't in me. > > When I read these crybaby scribbles I just laugh and realize that nobody much has a work > ethic any more. You have to burn the entire rest of your life if you want to be great > at something. Look at Olympic athletes -- they have no personal life, they do nothing > but work at their sport -- ten to fifteen years. And when they do what they do, they > can dazzle us, and we marvel. > > Twenty minutes a day on poetry isn't going to get anybody anywhere that's going to amaze > anybody. > > If you work at poetry -- and you have talent at it -- even if you are quite short -- > then you must work at it all day and devote your life to it. If you do this in a > half-assed way and clog your life with other things, what you write is not going to > matter. To work for twenty minutes a day and then spend 16 hours wondering why nobody > is reading, or planning a national mandate so that you are not only read, but people are > forced to read and buy your work, then you should be apprised of the reality. Even if > you can make everybody read your work, it won't matter. > > Richard Brautigan would disappear for years to work on his art. Charles Olson spent > decades holed up and working on his poetry. Emily Dickinson did, too. I'm sure that > Amiri Bakara and Gwendolyn Brooks did, too. Ginsberg did early on, but then he became a > popular figure, and his poetry became a sad stupid reminder of his earlier work. > > Let's think about work ethic. That's the way to get ahead in this country. All the > whining is a waste of effort that could go into the poem. > > I'm not much of a poet -- I used to work hard at it but I have too many things going on > now. I want to write maybe another book or two of criticism, and I like to play with > poetry, but I don't expect to overtake Charles Olson or Gregory Corso at this rate. > > Please let's just try to be realistic. Now get to work and shut up. If you work for > twenty years at ten hours a day, and you have talent, and still you are not published, > then you can come whining. Part of a poet's genius is clearing out their life. If you > can't even manage that, then forget about it. I can't, but you don't hear me whining. > > -- Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 15:09:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: noah eli gordon Subject: Re: Discrepancies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi Max, Thanks for responding. A few things first: I DO read most of the lit magazines I get thoroughly, Fence included. The reason I’d mentioned my initial engagement, the first few things in the magazine I’d read, was to show the difference in how Sara and I approached the issue. Ultimately, it was to admit that as a man ( or as the particular “man” that I am) I hadn’t noticed what really stuck out to Sara. The list of journals wasn’t meant to be arranged via any sort of hierarchy. Yours was on top because it was the one that prompted Sara and I to take a closer look at the discrepancy. As far as why one might be prompted to “do so much counting”, I’d say it’s because this still remains an issue, one which isn’t resolved/explored etc. by blaming the patriarchal nature of our culture, by creating an other/outsider/ghettoized safe-zone, by looking at the length of pages rather than the number of individuals etc. I’m interested in exploring this issue further and I wonder if you’d comment on any visible discrepancies on the number of submissions you receive as far as gender is concerned… yrs, Noah _________________________________________________________________ Check out the new MSN 9 Dial-up — fast & reliable Internet access with prime features! http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=dialup/home&ST=1 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 16:47:30 -0330 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Hehir Subject: Re: WORK ETHIC In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII what is this? On Mon, 19 Jan 2004, Karl-Erik Tallmo wrote: > http://www.nisus.se/newsounds/toon_din_ke_dah.slow.ram > > /Karl-Erik Tallmo > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > KARL-ERIK TALLMO, poet, writer, artist, journalist, living in > Stockholm, Sweden. > MAGAZINE: http://art-bin.com > ARTWORK, WRITINGS etc.: http://www.nisus.se/tallmo/ > __________________________________________________________________ > > > mIEKAL aND wrote: > > >Certainly he's a good drummer in the context of early rock music, but > >reversing the accent in 4/4 is something any good jazz drummer can do. > >If your looking for drumming skill which is mind boggling, tala cycles > >in tabla hand drumming uses mathematical sequences, sometimes adding up > >to dozens of beats to keep in mind. An interesting example is one in > >10 1/2 beats, divided 1 1/2 + 1 1/2 + 1 1/2 + 1 1/2 + 1 1/2 + 1 1/2 + 1 > >1/2. Here's a basic web page about talas which describes how they are > >composed. Each beat also has an accompanying vocalization. > > > >http://www.ancient-future.com/theka.html > > > -- --------------------------- http://paulmartintime.ca/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 15:23:39 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Laura Elrick Subject: Jen Hofer and Aaron Kunin in NYC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit SEGUE READING SERIES AT THE BOWERY POETRY CLUB Saturday Jan 24 Aaron Kunin and Jen Hofer Jen Hofer is a poet and translator whose recent books include Sin Puertas Visibles: An Anthology of Contemporary Poetry by Mexican Women (University of Pittsburgh Press and Ediciones Sin Nombre, 2003) and slide rule (subpress, 2002). With Rod Smith, she is editing Issue #10 of Aerial, on the work of Lyn Hejinian. Recent texts and translations can be found in 26, Aufgabe, Circumference, Enough, kiosk, and in the special anti-war issue of A.BACUS. She lives in Los Angeles. Aaron Kunin is a poet, critic, and novelist. Recent work has appeared or is forthcoming in Anomaly, Experimental Theology, No, and Sal Mimeo; a chapbook, The Sore Throat, is forthcoming from Germ Folios. He is currently visiting assistant professor of negative anthropology at Wesleyan University. http://www.bowerypoetry.com/ 308 BOWERY, JUST NORTH OF HOUSTON SATURDAYS FROM 4 - 6 PM $5 admission goes to support the readers Funding is made possible by the continuing support of the Segue Foundation and the Literature Program of the New York State Council on the Arts. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 14:43:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Annie Finch Subject: Re: WORK ETHIC Comments: To: olsonjk@delhi.edu In-Reply-To: <400C2D07.E1179DD9@delhi.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Ogden Nash could have been thinking of this post when he wrote, Indeed, everybody wants to be a wow, but not everybody knows exactly how. Some people think they will eventually wear diamonds instead of rhinestones Only by everlastingly keeping their noses to their ghrinestones. __(from "Kindly Unhitch That Star, Buddy" by Ogden Nash) In fact, Rilke didn't write poetry for almost ten years, then suddenly wrote Dueno Elegies and immediately after, in 3 days, the entire Sonnets to Orpheus. Valery abandoned poetry for 20 years, starting at age 21, then wrote his most famous poem. Of course, they weren't Americans. Maybe you happen to have insider info. that the U.S. muses are more respectful of the work ethic; after all as you say, "that's the way to get ahead in this country." Re your gist: it's commonly known that in virtually every field women need to work harder and better to earn respect and recognition equivalent to that of men. No amount of name-calling of bleeding-heart liberals!" will make poetry an exception to this rule until our culture finishes going through its post-patriarchal birth canal. Annie > >Let's think about work ethic. That's the way to get ahead in this >country. All the >whining is a waste of effort that could go into the poem. ___________________________________ Annie Finch http://www.users.muohio.edu/finchar English Department, Miami University, Ohio Care2 make the world greener! Help the planet each day! It's free and easy: http://www.Care2.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 15:39:50 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Allegrezza Subject: Re: call for submissions In-Reply-To: <1a2.1f434968.2d3c1634@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Here are two poems answering your call. Bill Allegrezza (for a blurb see www.moriapoetry.com/allegrezzabill.html) 1. stables and then unregulated motion “time to resign, my friend,” . . . . “ . .] in ho urs the fields break in to lay ers lace d b y oa k lim bs in th e su n ligh t specific to th e re gion abo ve new or leans “‘it couldn’t have caused such wide systemic failure’” “she went back down the long avenue of trees, stumbling against piles of dead leaves” the organ replaces the hands that shift keys 2. atoms thrown through the texas nights onto city streets where puntas wait for another lost direction in mid-summer when the air is stiff and signs for greying neighborhoods are covered with ivy as if to state the season is too hot for anything even though we are asking for only one visionary light to lead us under freeways through back alleys to some unrepentant love -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Austinwja@AOL.COM Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2004 11:03 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: call for submissions Hello everyone, It's time for Blackbox's winter gallery. This go around I'm looking only for text poetry and prose -- no pictures. Just trying to keep it interesting and varied. Please backchannel your submissions as attachments or in the body of your e-mail. As always, I thank you for considering Blackbox -- and a special thanks to all those who have contributed in the past and will no doubt be represented again in the future. For those of you who have yet to check out Koja Press' online gallery, go to WilliamJamesAustin.com and follow the Blackbox link. Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com kojapress.com amazon.com b&n.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 13:48:09 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Derek R Organization: derekrogerson.com Subject: Re: WORK ETHIC In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Re gist: ..| it's commonly known that in virtually every field ..| women need to work harder and better to earn ..| respect and recognition equivalent to that of men I wouldn't say this is true. I would say more respect and recognition is given to men. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 15:43:24 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Allegrezza Subject: Re: call for submissions In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit sorry -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Allegrezza Sent: Monday, January 19, 2004 3:40 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: call for submissions Here are two poems answering your call. Bill Allegrezza (for a blurb see www.moriapoetry.com/allegrezzabill.html) 1. stables and then unregulated motion “time to resign, my friend,” . . . . “ . .] in ho urs the fields break in to lay ers lace d b y oa k lim bs in th e su n ligh t specific to th e re gion abo ve new or leans “‘it couldn’t have caused such wide systemic failure’” “she went back down the long avenue of trees, stumbling against piles of dead leaves” the organ replaces the hands that shift keys 2. atoms thrown through the texas nights onto city streets where puntas wait for another lost direction in mid-summer when the air is stiff and signs for greying neighborhoods are covered with ivy as if to state the season is too hot for anything even though we are asking for only one visionary light to lead us under freeways through back alleys to some unrepentant love -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Austinwja@AOL.COM Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2004 11:03 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: call for submissions Hello everyone, It's time for Blackbox's winter gallery. This go around I'm looking only for text poetry and prose -- no pictures. Just trying to keep it interesting and varied. Please backchannel your submissions as attachments or in the body of your e-mail. As always, I thank you for considering Blackbox -- and a special thanks to all those who have contributed in the past and will no doubt be represented again in the future. For those of you who have yet to check out Koja Press' online gallery, go to WilliamJamesAustin.com and follow the Blackbox link. Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com kojapress.com amazon.com b&n.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 13:59:05 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kazim Ali Subject: Re: Diversity & its simulation In-Reply-To: <400C3437.CD26D38@delhi.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I want to reply to this, but it is hard to tell now who wrote which part of the below--plus I am going to clip and comment which will make it further confusing. > > Tony, what you say here is originally what got me > so suspicious of the > > new credentials required by publishing houses, > English departments, and > > so on -- for a sort of "diversity" -- I take hard issue with the idea that any publishing houses--commercial or small press or anyone else--is going out of their way to promote any specific kind of diversity, except maybe those houses who are doing it as part of their specific specific mission. From personal experience my own writing has often been characterized to me in typical ways: houses that do work to promote cultural diversity have told me its too "odd" or "experimental" or "avant-garde"--houses that do innovative work have said to me "too narrative," "too lyrical," blah blah. So we're all of us--who fit into this place--making our own space and our own audience. Harryette Mullen talks about this in an interesting way in her interview with Daniel Kane in the new T&W book. And as far as MFA programs or anyone in higher education doing *too much* to promote diversity I take hard hard issue with that too. I have always been one of one or two or three non Europeans in any given graduate class I ever have been in. I went to graduate school in New York City and there something like four of us in an MFA program of nearly 30. > > > I knew a lot of MFA kids back in the > > > day when I used to hang out near an MFA program > who > > > would enter with a name like Tom Smith, and > leave the > > > program named Tomas Garcia-Smith. Joseph would > become > > > Jose, Brandy would become Nalani, and so forth. > That's > > > an interesting move--motivated by...? Motivated by what? Why are you compelled to fill in the blank here? If Brandy felt herself become Nalani then so be it. But to base an assumption that people are doing this on anecdotes you have heard or folks you have talked to is not proof of anything. > > time to time. This was apparently enough to > declare herself an American > > Indian! > > > > She had almost no dance background. A couple of > years in the Idaho > > ballet or something. it is interesting that you juxtapose these two anecdotes. That her faking her ethnic background was the same as faking her dance background. I can't answer the faking her ethnic background part, (except that once again you seem to take a single anecdote as somehow being evidence of phenomenon) but as a dancer I will say "a couple of years in the Idaho ballet" is NOT "almost most dance background." A couple of years in any professional dance company whether Idaho or Moscow is a professional dance career is. You train your life, you dance on stage for several years (for ballet--for modern dance, obviously, the career can be and often is much much longer) and then you retire and teach. > > Almost > nobody is what they say > > they are. How untrue. But more than that, what motivates you to say something like this? > > > > There are even some writers who have had > sex-change operations (I know > > of only one, and am too afraid to mention the > name, because this guy is > > crazy) who have turned from man into woman in > order to get published. Why do you believe he has done this specifically to get published? If he really is crazy (your words) then why do you want to use him as an example? I > > don't know that many people, so if I know of one > clear case out of the > > 200 or so people that I actually know, then there > are others. How can you assume this? > > > > Many many people who claim to be gay are not, or > are so only in order to > > get preferential treatment. What preferential treatment? A couple of free cocktails at the bar? A titillating story to tell decades later about Allen Ginsburg? > > > > A real gay person is oriented toward the same sex > from childhood. Who is a "real" gay person? Gay people--queer people--can and do "realize" this aspect of themselves all throughout their lives. It is so reductive to simply qualify a whole experience is a short pithy swipe. Kirby, (I'm guessing it is Kirby?) it is not fair to write these broad assumptions based on strange stories you have been told or things you have heard from people. This is like the time you wrote to kari edwards that you thought all transgendered people were happy and had no problems because you saw the movie "To Wong Foo, Thanks For Everything" or some other movie about drag queens which I thought was a really weird comment but I can never tell if you are serious when you say things like this. Sorry for being testy. Must come from eight hours at the academy try to act *less* "gay". ===== ==== WAR IS OVER (if you want it) (e-mail president@whitehouse.gov) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 17:21:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Tills Subject: Re: WORK ETHIC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Some of this seems silly, to me, Kirby, but I DO admire and=20 like your posts stirring up the fun here. Sincerely. (1)When I, myself, think of Ali or Jordan, I think of extraordinarily physically gifted athletes and athletic performance. When I think=20 of Ali, I think of a fellow who achieved "greatness" early as well as=20 late, before he'd put twenty years into his "art," and after, also. =20 When I think of Jordan, I think of the incredible physical ability=20 (jump, twist, spatial awareness, etc.) and Yes, much practice, as=20 the Jordan who became one of basketball's all-time greats did=20 mature a little later than some. I think then that perseverance and=20 drive can be substituted for "work ethic," and I think everybody=20 can keep hopeful. (2)When I think of a Ginger Baker, again I think of "performance,"=20 and as with basketball, I see a distinction between performance=20 (which can derive from repetition of physical movements) and=20 writing (which can flow out of anyone 20 or 80). (3)When I think of Corso AND Rimbaud, I think of young=20 writers who "made it" fairly young, so I don't see the 20 years=20 of work ethic, necessarily. (4)When I think of any writers, I think also of the social nature=20 of writing, such that "greatness" is also determined by the taste=20 and desire and maybe even the money, of readers and patrons=20 and critics and cultures and sociopolitical systems. (5)When I think of Corso and the/an idea of "greatness," I also=20 think that some reject such a pursuit -- the pursuit of "greatness." =20 Also, as another poster observed, "great poetry" may just as=20 readily come from a writer who has lived a rich and varied life=20 as from a writer who practices profusely and markets self=20 aggressively and successfully. I know it may to some sound=20 like heresy, but I reject a lot Corso's who do not seem, to me,=20 to have developed enough richness of psyche and intellect to=20 have rejected lifestyles emotionally immature and self-destructive. =20 Yeah, it's the "aesthetic" that counts, but darn, there are so many=20 good writers/thinkers/poets to read in a lifetime; for me, Corso=20 doesn't make my A or B lists. (6) I don't expect to overtake Corso, either. His was an age=20 when "young males" were still the rage of Literature. Another=20 poster mentioned Rilke and Valery, and I find that notion, that=20 some of their greatest writing came, suddenly, from inspiration=20 after years of neglected "practice" just as realistic. (7)Again, the "Greatness" thing is a bother, too. What difference=20 does it all make, anyhow? It's not like anybody is writing the=20 cure to cancer or even to existential despair or societal malaise,=20 though if somebody does produce the latter, fabulous! (8)In place of "Greatness," I would be equally happy to substitute=20 connection with other writers and the collective contribution to a=20 collective consciousness and the process of expanding same. I=20 know that sounds pretty hokey... A coupla cents, And for all who have emotional energy invested in the caucuses=20 this evening, Best of Luck to your candidates and let's all give each other credit for caring plenty enough; there's=20 a lot of energy developing in getting rid of Bush, and that's darn cool! = =20 Steve :) =20 Kirby wrote: <>=20 Steve Tills Microcomputer/Software Specialist MIS Dept.- G.W. Lisk Company, Inc. 315-462-4309 Stills@gwlisk.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 17:31:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: shanna compton Subject: Re: Diversity & its simulation In-Reply-To: <400C3437.CD26D38@delhi.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Please somebody tell me that this too is satire. I'm *this close* to unsubscribing from this list just so my eyes don't pop out of my head reading posts like this one. on 1/19/04 2:47 PM, Kirby Olson at olsonjk@DELHI.EDU wrote: >> Tony, what you say here is originally what got me so suspicious of the >> new credentials required by publishing houses, English departments, and >> so on -- for a sort of "diversity" -- >> >>> I knew a lot of MFA kids back in the >>> day when I used to hang out near an MFA program who >>> would enter with a name like Tom Smith, and leave the >>> program named Tomas Garcia-Smith. Joseph would become >>> Jose, Brandy would become Nalani, and so forth. That's >>> an interesting move--motivated by...? I've actually >>> spoken to some poets who are very clear about their >>> motivation for doing this--re-christening oneself with >>> an "ethnic" or at least "less-white" name may increase >>> one's chances of getting published. >> >> I found it amazing in graduate school how many people suddenly "came >> out" when they realized it was in their best interests to do so. I >> worked in the dance program as a secretary and the head of the dance >> program -- a woman named -- I'm going to leave it out -- told me one day on >> Martin >> Luther King Day -- that she had once again been invited to speak out on >> the topic of being a minority. She had claimed that she was an American >> Indian on her application for the job. On the basis of that, she had >> been hired. She had also gotten preferential mortgage rates on the same >> basis. She felt guilty. I am such a good listener. I took this all >> in, and thought, she should be dropped on her head from a great height (I am >> so Lutheran). >> >> She had a poster of Chief Seattle on her door with his famous speech (he >> never said the things it is claimed that he said -- his famous speech >> was created by a screenwriter for a Southern Baptist film documentary -- >> he mentions buffaloes for instance and telegraph wires -- those things >> did not exist in the Seattle of his day), and she said that her >> boyfriend of the time had encouraged her to tell this lie. She also >> said that her father DID call her and her siblings "wild Indians" from >> time to time. This was apparently enough to declare herself an American >> Indian! >> >> She had almost no dance background. A couple of years in the Idaho >> ballet or something. >> >> But it got her the job. She is now at Amherst or some place like that >> in Massachusetts. Maybe Hampshire. I can't remember. There are >> hundreds of people like that floating around. >> >> Technically, the department was wrong for having hired her on that >> basis. They should be looking at qualifications. But bleeding-heart >> liberals want to be nice, and in doing so, they allow fraud like this to >> take place. >> >> It is taking place all over the country. Almost nobody is what they say >> they are. >> >> There are even some writers who have had sex-change operations (I know >> of only one, and am too afraid to mention the name, because this guy is >> crazy) who have turned from man into woman in order to get published. I >> don't know that many people, so if I know of one clear case out of the >> 200 or so people that I actually know, then there are others. >> >> Many many people who claim to be gay are not, or are so only in order to >> get preferential treatment. >> >> A real gay person is oriented toward the same sex from childhood. If >> you suddenly realize you are gay at 25 when it seems that you can get a >> job and be taken seriously if you are gay, you are probably not really >> gay. You are just an opportunist. >> >> Technically you have to be on a tribal roll in order to be considered an >> American Indian. This is fairly easy to arrange if you have enough >> money. I know of several artists who have gone this route. With ten >> thousand dollars, and a little time and charm, you can be put on a >> tribal role. A lot of people have this kind of money (class), and are >> only too happy to get the American Indian credential. >> >> Meanwhile, there are real victims of oppression. Class is the truly >> oppressive distinction. But of course that can be faked, too. The rock >> band The Clash mostly went to private schools (what they call public >> schools in England) but check out their accents. Poseurs. >> >> If you come from the upper classes -- if your father was a professor at >> Harvard, for instance, and you think you are oppressed, you're fooling >> yourself, but I doubt if you were very far behind the starting line. I >> would say in fact that you were in front of it, and well in front of it. But >> people are shameless >> today. >> >> And my excuse? I'm statistically short compared to the great writers, so >> what >> on earth am I going to do? >> >> I think that beautiful women and very large men have it made, and will >> never have to worry about what to eat, only perhaps what to choose from >> the menu. but this doesn't bother me, because I have seen the coming of >> the Lord, you see, and find all of this world and its machinations from >> within a Darwinian paradigm. >> If you can get a niche in the food chain by assuming camouflage, then why >> not? Animals do it all the >> time. And if people don't believe in anything higher than the animal realm >> what's to prevent them >> from acting like animals? >> >> -- Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 14:34:12 -0800 Reply-To: Ishaq1823@telus.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ishaq Organization: Selah7 http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html Subject: Ex-pimps, Hustlers, Drug kingpins, at San Francisco Tenderloin Book Fair MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ex-pimps, Hustlers, Drug kingpins, at San Francisco Tenderloin Book Fair Ex-pims, Hustlers, Drug kingpin, at Tenderloin Book Fair The upcoming San Francisco Tenderloin Book Fair is being described as the "olympics of black radical poetry and literature," with over fifity official writers participating and nearly the same amount scheduled for open mike poetry and speak outs. More than 15 poets from Los Angeles will perform in the open mike section. They are "conscious" poets on a mission to unite with their elders in the Black Arts Movement, such as Amiri Baraka, Sonia Sanchez, Askia Toure and Marvin X, event organizer. The Nation of Islam's international representative, Akbar Muhammad, will also attend, along with legendary professor Dr. Acklyn Lynch and author Sam Greenlee who wrote The Spook Who Sat By The Door. Drs. Nathan and Julia Hare will participate, along with San Francisco's first poet laureate, Devorah Major, and MacArthur genius award winner Ishmael Reed. But the most controversial authors include ex-pimp Fillmore Slim, ex-hustler and godfather of Hunters Point, a San Francisco ghetto, Charlie Walker, and one of Oakland's former drug kingpins, Mickey Moore, now a minister. They will speak to youth on the consequences of "the game." The event takes place Friday and Saturday, January 30-31, at Marvin X's Recovery Theatre, located in downtown San Francisco in the multi-racial ghetto called the Tenderloin, 133 Golden Gate Ave., between Leavenworth and Jones. He is calling for the establishment of the University of Poetry to continue the cultural revolution the Black Arts Movement began in the 60s. "We are passing the baton to the hip hop generation," he said. "And we are bringing together all elements of our community to discuss family problems." The book fair is free but registration for the University of Poetry is $20.00 for both days, which includes a Friday dinner, workshops, panels and spoken word concerts. The theatre only seats 250, so pre-registration tickets are available at Reggae Runnins, 505 Divisadero, San Francisco, Da Corner, Fillmore and Hayes, also Da Corner, Third and LaSalle, Hunters Point, and Aquarius Rising, 60th and Telegraph, Oakland. Or send a check or money order to Recovery Theatre, 133 Golden Gate Ave., San Francisco, CA 94102. Call 510-798-9155 for more information or visit http://www.recoverytheare.org . Event sponsors include Theatre St. Boniface, Black Bird Press, Vanguard Public Foundation, Before Columbus Foundation, East Bay Church of Religious Science, Huey P. Newton Foundation, It's About Time, BSU at San Francisco State University, BSU at Contra Costa College. -- - ___ Stay Strong "Peace sells but who's buying?" Megadeth "This mathematical rhythmatical mechanism enhances my wisdom of Islam, keeps me calm from doing you harm, when I attack, it's Vietnam" --HellRazah "It's not too good to stay in a white man's country too long" Mutabartuka http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html http://awol.objector.org/artistprofiles/welfarepoets.html http://ilovepoetry.com/search.asp?keywords=braithwaite&orderBy=date http://www.dpgrecordz.com/fredwreck/ http://www.lowliferecords.co.uk/ http://loudandoffensive.com/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/THCO2 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 17:52:07 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Brennan Subject: Check out The Assassinated Press Comments: To: frankfurt-school@lists.village.virginia.edu, corp-focus@lists.essential.org, WRYTING-L@LISTSERV.UTORONTO.CA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Click here: The Assassinated Press Assassinated Press Accused Of Racist Policies Toward Whites: Battery Of Suits Forces Press To Vacate Its Plush 'K Street' Offices By YASO ADIOD The Assassinated Press They hang the man and flog the woman That steal the goose from off the common, But let the greater villain loose That steals the common from the goose. ".....at a time when I am speaking to you about the paradox of desire -- in the sense that different goods obscure it -- you can hear outside the awful language of power. There's no point in asking whether they are sincere or hypocritical, whether they want peace of whether they calculate the risks. The dominating impression as such a moment is that something that may pass for a prescribed good; information addresses and captures impotent crowds to whom it is poured forth like a liquor that leaves them dazed as they move toward the slaughter house. One might even ask if one would allow the cataclysm to occur without first giving free reign to this hubbub of voices...." ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 14:53:33 -0800 Reply-To: antrobin@clipper.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anthony Robinson Subject: Re: Diversity & its simulation In-Reply-To: <20040119215905.14734.qmail@web40806.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In response to Kazim's response to Kirby's centaur-like cobbling-together of both of our words (mine and Kirby's), I feel compelled to respond. With the exception of one passage, everything Kazim quoted was Kirby's. My passage is below, though, and I feel that I must comment and clarify. Tony's comment: >I knew a lot of MFA kids back in the >day when I used to hang out near an MFA >program whowould enter with a name like Tom Smith, >and leave the program named Tomas Garcia-Smith. >Joseph would become Jose, Brandy would become >Nalani, and so forth. >That's an interesting move--motivated by...? ++++++++++ In context, I was responding to someone's question concerning how an editor can *tell* what race or ethnicity a writer is. My response was a) I can't. As a "mixed" writer myself, (and someone who doesn't *look* white), I'm interested in this. At the same time, my very anglo name probably means that lots of folks asssume I'm "white," whatever that means. My point was, I feel no need to change my name because I'm not particularly concerned what ethnicity people think I am. For OTHER PEOPLE, though, this is a concern. Some folks don't realize that until they enter and environment (MFA for example) in which race and ethnicity and other aspects of identity politics are foregrounded daily. The people in the specific program I mentioned were encouraged to change their names, if not to garner more publication, to identify themselves more strongly with their ethnic heritage. I'm not passing judgment, just noting something that has occurred, and continues to occur. I think it's also important to remember that this is a choice. Kazim wrote: > Motivated by what? Why are you compelled to fill in > the blank here? The question mark, the "blank," isn't filled in because I sincerely don't know what individually motivates individuals. I don't feel like I'm "proving" anything--only offering up items for discussion. Finally, I am not Kirby Olson. I respect Kirby and have had many fruitful exchanges with him about poetry and life. However, I don't concur with the majority of his post, and I hope his excerpting of my comments doesn't imply that I do. Best, AR __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 23:20:59 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Frank Sherlock Subject: Opportunists Beware Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed The world according to Kirby. "Many many people who claim to be gay are not, or are so only in order to get preferential treatment. >> A real gay person is oriented toward the same sex from childhood. If you suddenly realize you are gay at 25 when it seems that you can get a job and be taken seriously if you are gay, you are probably not really gay. You are just an opportunist." Ah, you're quite a button pusher- a real peach. Oh, & full of shit. Who's next? When will you be beginning the hunt for those "opportunist" gay folks that pass as straight to avoid being fired, or beaten or killed. Because that's most of the world, not your university nook. It's obvious you're tuned into the gay community, since you know the absolute window that others are allowed to discover their sexual orientation. You should spread your knowledge. People coming out later in life need to be exposed as the fakers they are. And I'm sure you've interviewed your "out" former colleagues, asking them if they'd ever had same-sex attractions during childhood. You're a thorough, thoughtful guy, so I couldn't imagine it any other way. Yes Kirby, you are the new model of the left. Thanks for showing us the way. Left like Ernst Rohm. Frank Sherlock _________________________________________________________________ There are now three new levels of MSN Hotmail Extra Storage! Learn more. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=hotmail/es2&ST=1 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 17:21:32 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christine Murray Subject: discrepancy/editing/women&men/ethnicity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Thank you, Anthony Robinson, for responding in depth to the questions I was asking on the list yesterday. It is this part of the dialogue in your post that catches my interest for now: --[Anthony quoting one of chris's questions]: how many are upper eschelon college privileged, > and how many are > supporting their poetry writing only through working > at so-called > "unskilled" jobs like janitor, waitress (oh, sorry: > "food server"), "data > entry specialist,"? --[Anthony responding to the question]: More former than latter, I'm sure. But that's built into po-biz, isn't it? Go to school, get MFA, submit poems...blah blah blah. Of course, there are plenty of relatively non-privileged folks who make it to college and beyond, and then "enter" the upper echelon as well, no? I think that this assumption of an academicizing of "po biz" is completely accurate. And that this cultural (cultural seems such a safe term, but is really loaded: "economic" or "cultural economy" or some mix of these is probably more accurate) tendency seems to have the potential to dull poetry down, at in the estimation of some knowledgeable observers. And: let alone that poetry then falls under the umbrella of institutional life rather than *life.* Everyday life, of many, in all the variousness that implies. Perhaps it gives a false impression of streamlining to poetry, this academicizing. And I am very skeptical of that, and think it should be questioned more deeply and more often. But to answer your immediate question, here--yes, some "relatively non-privileged folks" do work their way through educations in "po-biz." There is quite a range to this inclusive phrasing, but I should make clear that I was lucky enough to get back to college and now teach, so I include myself as one but in another sense, it's also true that I have always had the benefit of literacy. But even knowing and being grateful for that much (in the larger community-sense of things) does not de-fuse the lingering problem, really a trend stemming from an historical tendency, of cultivating an ever-more institutionalized kind of poetry. See what I'm getting at? How trained, how cultivated, how evaluated by grades in the current kind of academicizing, then, should poetry be? I mean is that what poets want (is that what readers want)?--given that the choices seem to be narrowing, as you indicate. There are many amazing readerly/writerly folks who never had a thing to do with college or, some of the folks I know, not with high school either. And their "outsider" (so-called) perspectives really energize the work they commit. Their contributions are of great value to me. So this cultural economy of academicizing po-biz, by its exclusionary practices, seems to harbor the potential of great loss to poetry in some important ways. Thus, what is the range of available choices? My questions are meant to keep this part the discussion going--I do not have any special answers myself, but am intensely curious, as ever, about this social trajectory, and many others, regarding poetry. Thanks for the thoughful discussion. Best, Chris Murray http://texfiles.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 00:53:26 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karl-Erik Tallmo Subject: Re: WORK ETHIC In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" It is a composition vaguely (nota bene) inspired by Indian "bols", that is the syllables used in Indian music to "audibly notate" rhythmic drum (e.g. tabla) patterns ... although the meter is very stretched here - not strict Karl-Erik Tallmo >what is this? > >On Mon, 19 Jan 2004, Karl-Erik Tallmo wrote: > >> http://www.nisus.se/newsounds/toon_din_ke_dah.slow.ram >> > > /Karl-Erik Tallmo >> > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 19:09:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carolyn Ostrander Subject: Re: discrepancy/editing/women&men/ethnicity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I feel compelled to respond to this. My background and experience has been highly mixed from the start, and when I gave up on academia in the 70s (my late teens), I also gave up the hope of writing anything others would ever read. Getting through life was all-consuming. When I suddenly started to write again after essentially 30 yrs of silence I began with an intense period of reflection, reworking, and redefining myself. And surprise - I have work that other people read and like. Publish? probably not. Like someone else said - too experimental, too narrative, etc. Not in the niche. By accident in the interim, I was working in a university by that time but not teaching. It wasn't the academic environment (MFA accepting 6 or so people a year) that opened my world; it was discovering that on back streets and in dead-end jobs everywhere around me people are making poems happen in a bewildering, feverish mosaic from self-expression through experimentation. I talk to poets and professors on campus who bewail the lack of respect poetry gets, but won't come down to the local spots and give respect to the poets who are squeezing words out of mops and dishing them out in fast food joints. After years of enticing, one of the poet/professors on this particular hill came down to mc (we thought) at a local open mic that had been around 10 yrs or so. He read a spate of his work, and then left w/out sitting through even one word by anyone else. Whatever energy he could have gotten from sharing instead of reading , was lost. In the city, there's everything from hiphop to spewing from a high school diary to highly polished lyrics and narratives, both in and out of form, to deliberate Oulipean constructions. And it's fertile, because ideas and experiments cross-pollinate. Bad poets get better, or at least get new forms in which to be bad; but good poets get an ear - and eye - some of the poets are visual artists as well - for what's possible. I know of at least 10 venues in a town that is supposed by the hill not to be interested in poetry at all. I can be out every night, sometimes in some not-so-pretty places, and find people who respect what I am trying to do, and from whom I can learn. How many writers support themselves with something else? I have a hard time these days finding people who write. Janitors, dropouts, the math whiz who won't put pen to paper for a grocery list 'cause he "hates writing" - they've all got a shoebox with scraps of something y'all oughta see - or better yet, hear. Someone said below: "Go to school, get MFA, submit poems...blah blah blah." Nice. Meanwhile the real work of poetry is passing you by, its hand held out for change or to pocket a tip at the diner, or tapping its foot against the accelerator of the family van down at the soccer field. The best poet I know is 19, and she won't submit a word for publication; it might change how she thought about her work. Work ethic? Try getting up at 4 am for shift work, taking a swipe at family life, and starting the work that keeps you alive, writing and reading, hanging with other poets, trading skills and imagery and voices. Publish or perish? Some of us have to literally fight our way out the door to get to where we can be with other writers. It's not about getting paid. It's about getting to do it at all. But I'll tell you who the outsiders are: it's the 6 up on the hill doing an MFA, trying to coax a poetry plant to grow with no nourishment because they never come down to the living well. clo Christine Murray wrote: > Thank you, Anthony Robinson, for responding in depth to the questions I was > asking on the list yesterday. > > It is this part of the dialogue in your post that catches my interest for > now: > > --[Anthony quoting one of chris's questions]: > how many are upper eschelon college privileged, > > and how many are > > supporting their poetry writing only through working > > at so-called > > "unskilled" jobs like janitor, waitress (oh, sorry: > > "food server"), "data > > entry specialist,"? > > --[Anthony responding to the question]: > More former than latter, I'm sure. But that's built > into po-biz, isn't it? Go to school, get MFA, submit > poems...blah blah blah. Of course, there are plenty > of relatively non-privileged folks who make it to > college and beyond, and then "enter" the upper echelon > as well, no? > > I think that this assumption of an academicizing of "po biz" is completely > accurate. And that this cultural (cultural seems such a safe term, but is > really loaded: "economic" or "cultural economy" or some mix of these is > probably more accurate) tendency seems to have the potential to dull poetry > down, at in the estimation of some knowledgeable observers. And: let alone > that poetry then falls under the umbrella of institutional life rather than > *life.* Everyday life, of many, in all the variousness that implies. > Perhaps it gives a false impression of streamlining to poetry, this > academicizing. And I am very skeptical of that, and think it should be > questioned more deeply and more often. > > But to answer your immediate question, here--yes, some "relatively > non-privileged folks" do work their way through educations in "po-biz." > There is quite a range to this inclusive phrasing, but I should make clear > that I was lucky enough to get back to college and now teach, so I include > myself as one but in another sense, it's also true that I have always had > the benefit of literacy. But even knowing and being grateful for that much > (in the larger community-sense of things) does not de-fuse the lingering > problem, really a trend stemming from an historical tendency, of cultivating > an ever-more institutionalized kind of poetry. > > See what I'm getting at? How trained, how cultivated, how evaluated by > grades in the current kind of academicizing, then, should poetry be? I mean > is that what poets want (is that what readers want)?--given that the choices > seem to be narrowing, as you indicate. > > There are many amazing readerly/writerly folks who never had a thing to do > with college or, some of the folks I know, not with high school either. And > their "outsider" (so-called) perspectives really energize the work they > commit. Their contributions are of great value to me. So this cultural > economy of academicizing po-biz, by its exclusionary practices, seems to > harbor the potential of great loss to poetry in some important ways. > > Thus, what is the range of available choices? My questions are meant to > keep this part the discussion going--I do not have any special answers > myself, but am intensely curious, as ever, about this social trajectory, and > many others, regarding poetry. > > Thanks for the thoughful discussion. > > Best, > > Chris Murray > > http://texfiles.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 16:56:08 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Nano codes and a quiz! Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Occasionally I get myself puzzled, and maybe a little terrified by Alan Sondheim's renditions of programming codes - as if all those letters, numbers and positions may indicate a substrata of markers ("nodes") already in place, each one hard at work in the definition and manipulation of the way in which each us may or may not - in the very present or in some future - be allowed to occupy, process thought, and operate in our public or private spheres. "Abandon free will," those of you who dare to enter here appears the sub-code and conviction of such a space. Of course, part of me says my viewpoint is just a reflection of my provincial and willful ignorance and study of the new founding pillars of post-industrial modes ("nodes" of operation. What was once manifest in the steel structures of corporate life - and the material sources for great art(at least what I hav= e liked), as say the work of Richard Serra, or Walter DeMaria's Lightening Field - now appear to be behind us. To rebuild the Twin Towers of the World Trade Center, in fact, now appears to be a useless and unnecessary act of relocation - it's habitat and significance better left to the imagination of an urban Proust or scholar; what we will actually get, and at great expense, will be a historical redundancy, an hors de commerce edition a building with no real function in a nano world where most transactions, commercial and otherwise, can be instantly organized, manifested, directed fulfilled, and traced with multi-colored micro Quantum spots across multipl= e intersecting nodes, including the view and correction of any systemic screw-ups. Architectural visibility rendered in steel will be a quaint memory of the ancien regime. I am not going to try to imagine the emergent aesthetic, the constructs built within what is invisible to the naked eye, what for example, is the ultimate disappearance of the relevance of a sentence, or any conventions o= f syntax, no matter how currently experimentally conceived. "Back in the day"= , for example, it used to normal to formally ask the person behind the hotel desk, "May I please have the key to Room X." Gradually, in skinny=3Ddown American fashion, a person just looked at the clerk and said "X", then that became eyeball contact without words, and that became a flat, computerized temporary key to carry in the pocket for your temporary door, temporary bed= , etc. I don't know if I see the poem (or paragraph) disappearing in a similar manner - into a white space with an entry code (locked without an enabling key code) and then, the aesthetic work's invisibility only traceable by a Quantum spot - quick spots revealing letters revealing words that disappear as quickly as they appear, the poem providing a "message" as protected as those delivered by a voice from within a small, say "monitor size", ancient Orphic mountain orifice. Animating the physical system of the reader/listener, providing instruction, direction - imparting and implantin= g operational codes for appropriate behavior back in the what now appears the illusion of the visible world. Get ready. I'm not! I was, however, fascinated to get this code on a slip paper this morning while I waited for my order at the Dolores Park Caf=E9) - a real place: CO SM (G) I offer a free poem, digitally transmitted, to all or the one who can figur= e it out.=20 Stephen Vincent =20 =20 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 19:28:44 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christine Murray Subject: discrepancy/editing.women&men/ethnicity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Carolyn, That's a great response--good to hear. A lively community you've got going, too. Your experience of academic readers unfortunately sounds all to true, I'm sorry to say. Not every academic-influenced reader, of course, but many. What's it going to take to put some life in some of those folks?! Thanks so much! Best, Chris Murray ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 21:25:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Martha L Deed Subject: Re: discrepancy/editing.women&men/ethnicity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This thread has fascinated me as I, too, was very aware of gender-based limitations in the 60's when it appeared that most of the free living of the time involved what men -- not women -- could do. And I, too, was away for too long before resuming the work and play of poetry two years ago. I wrote this one on my way home from a poetry conference. 'nuf said. Trophies Adelia Lawrence writes poetry soaks up the new stuff like playing in mud something she has not done for fxxxy years attends conferences supported by social security the oldest in the room history major before most history was made her memory explicit images of her dislikes decades back decrepit seer the only women speakers at this conference are two among four addressing women in literary magazines Adelia thought this topic long-since settled but not they follow the famous poet professor who absorbs their time into his hypothesis and a young one with students all female clapping for grades the poets at this poetry festival surpass all academic probing funny, wise, multi-voiced, inventive all men, every one inveigh against injustice unjust war unkempt hair flying, whiskered, rumpled when they sit tiny women -- young, adoring dressed in blacks and grays stroke their sweaty hairy arms with looks of adoration supply bottles of boutique waters from abroad a new touch the preppy men buzz cuts and earring studs alone Adelia rides home in her SUV along the shore the gulls together mallards together the water girls really very young Adelia wonders where the years have gone if anything has happened in between Adelia Lawrence writes protest poetry a single white feathered orange billed domestic bird gone wild stands among the Canada Geese -------Martha Deed ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 21:36:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mairead Byrne Subject: Re: discrepancy/editing.women&men/ethnicity Comments: To: mldeed1@JUNO.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Whoa!!! Cutting poem! I was miscast briefly as a tiny girl a long time = ago and am closer to Adelia now. Mairead www.maireadbyrne.blogspot.com >>> mldeed1@JUNO.COM 01/19/04 21:26 PM >>> This thread has fascinated me as I, too, was very aware of gender-based limitations in the 60's when it appeared that most of the free living of the time involved what men -- not women -- could do. And I, too, was away for too long before resuming the work and play of poetry two years ago. I wrote this one on my way home from a poetry conference. 'nuf said. Trophies Adelia Lawrence writes poetry soaks up the new stuff like playing in mud something she has not done for fxxxy years attends conferences supported by social security the oldest in the room history major before most history was made her memory explicit images of her dislikes decades back decrepit seer the only women speakers at this conference are two among four addressing women in literary magazines Adelia thought this topic long-since settled but not they follow the famous poet professor who absorbs their time into his hypothesis and a young one with students all female clapping for grades the poets at this poetry festival surpass all academic probing funny, wise, multi-voiced, inventive all men, every one inveigh against injustice unjust war unkempt hair flying, whiskered, rumpled when they sit tiny women -- young, adoring dressed in blacks and grays stroke their sweaty hairy arms with looks of adoration supply bottles of boutique waters from abroad a new touch the preppy men buzz cuts and earring studs alone Adelia rides home in her SUV along the shore the gulls together mallards together the water girls really very young Adelia wonders where the years have gone if anything has happened in between Adelia Lawrence writes protest poetry a single white feathered orange billed domestic bird gone wild stands among the Canada Geese -------Martha Deed ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 23:09:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Ken Rumble Subject: Desert City Poetry Series w/ Patrick Herron and Joseph Donahue, Carrboro, NC Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Please spread far and wide...... Who: Joseph Donahue, author of _Incidental Eclipse_ and _Terra Lucida_, Duke professor and quick draw king sans parallel. Who: Patrick Herron, author of _Hyperlustrous Purse_, ibilio.org footsoldier first class, NOT a sock puppet named Lester who has a dirty mouth and wrote a book called _Be Somebody_. What: Desert City Poetry Series, Reborn, Revived, Resuscitated, Relocated, Resurrected, Rejuiced -- Never Rehashed. When: Thursday, January 22nd, 8:00 pm Where: Sizl Gallery, 405 E. Main Street, Carrboro, NC, directly above the center of the earth. Why: cuz "the cold earth remains a belly" while "The god who dreams our world / does not sleep well" and "the fragrance of absence is an endless gift" yet to "copy out an alphabet you've never seen" is "the sky when in bloom" for "t0 lIv3 I5 t0 c0mpr0mI53 f0r th3 w4nt 0f, / th3 l0v3" when "One says simply: these words are burning. One says: we are the residue of what will be." See you there............... *Sizl Gallery: http://www.sizlgallery.com/ *The Durham Herald-Sun on the DCPS: http://www.heraldsun.com/features/54-434526.html *Patrick Herron: http://www.litvert.com/herron.html -and- http://www.carrboro.com/poetlaureate2003poem.html *Joseph Donahue: http://www.alsopreview.com/foley/jfdonahue.html -and- http://www.constantcritic.com/archive.cgi?rev=Jordan_Davis&name=Incidental%2 0Eclipse contact DCPS: Ken Rumble, Director -- rumblek@bellsouth.net from "Incidental Eclipse" by Joseph Donahue Pelicans descend & settle onto Nightmare Bay. In one life, the shops are closed. In another, a cataclysm, a harvest festival where your kisses are a netful of moons and stars made from foil. But the tremor in the air is that of a love yet to be given... The brochure promised our god would be the one of the second birth, not just a fox near midnight on the garden wall. Or a surge of white ocean fog blotting light and sound. Or words done in party-colored chalk, washed back to stone, and the summerhouse a char, raked over and sold. Room of the suicide, a blue cube of sky... Or a monastery window, constellations glittering. A drugstore: slip in hand, waiting for a name to be called, "The colors of my aura are dangerously sharpening..." Of the four forbidden subjects, this is the third: Creation's essential dissolve... You keep your head half turned away. On your medallion a glittering river turns into a cloud. New country where neither the boy nor the girl had ever been. A bitter mist over a pure lake, lush hairfall, full lips, there on that hillside, cities scattering out shrines and pathways though several from those years are dead and the sky-high hotel lounge turning slowly in the clear night air -- stars, the studs and rivets of some further adornment "This is only the first clue to your place here," your voice cuts in. "The truth all at once would only unhinge you..." "Man Eating Rice" by Patrick Herron Today I saw a man eating rice. Later I watched another man write a story about the man eating rice. Later still I saw another man so hungry he ate the paper on which the story was written the story of the rice and the man eating rice and the man who wrote about the man eating rice and the man eating the story about the man who was so hungry he wrote the story of the man who ate the story of the man eating rice. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 00:21:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: 2 pieces: AMERICAN OIL and MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII AMERICAN OIL whats going on How can I get to.. let me see... What's up? GlRLS7\/\/H00SQUlRT when They2CU|\/|! smash barricades 8ReaI FemaIe EjacuIation! The thing is bush-man fucks delicate julu with big bush-man stereotype cock EThe6\/\/ettest PUSSlES! try to understand T0|\|S of \/lDE0s, PH0T0s, Ll\/ECFBF9U3C0KE4BSH0\/\/s! in 1949 30 D/\YS for a 1 D0LL/\R - lT's1RE/\L! in 1874 julu spreads big pussy-cunt for bush-man big-cock oil in 1954 E|\|TER! in 2007 it's for you. to see you no more How about you? It's funny e}>3 million in race case in 1804 in 1902 i'm sorry in 1964 normally cost julu black-oil squirt from asshole cunt whipped by big-cock bush-man bush-man asshole leak gasoline into julu mouth >> \/\/\/ julu piss spits kerosene into big-cock hole of big-cock bush-man 30 D/\YS for a 1 D0LL/\R - lT's1RE/\L! in 1874 stereotype terror kills dirty kike ragheads filled with oil-burst bushman splits oil-burst skulls slobbering julu oil-skin big-tit blond julu with oil-black gunk-hair of bush-man stuffed with kike ragheads T0|\|S of \/lDE0s, PH0T0s, Ll\/ECFBF9U3C0KE4BSH0\/\/s! in 1949 bush-man wins big kills julu bush-man gnaws on big julu oily tits and oily pussy-cunt bush-man swallows bush-man big cock to see you no more How about you? GlRLS7\/\/H00SQUlRT when They2CU|\/|! smash barricades whats going on How can I get to.. let me see... What's up? _ ten stick men |||||||||| one stick woman | two stick men || eight stick women |||||||| three stick children ||| ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 00:30:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: Nano codes and a quiz! In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I think it's in Michael Benedikt's Cyberspace: First Steps, all the way from the early 90s, the idea of a liquid architecture - which unites the post-WTC hybrids and code itself; the latter is mobile, always in flux, protocol-dependent, software/hardware dependent, just as these letters are written in 'lower ascii,' another code necessary placed in the sendmail protocols, the tcp/ip protocols, all the way back and fortha mong routers, operating systems, radio transmissions, even wireless protocols. And there is always a bit of illumination realizing that hitting a key on a computer keyboard INTERRUPTS, and is read as an interrupt, that communication is an interference in quietude or flux. At night one loses sleep, is it codes or noise and chaos? Wolfram provides a way out, the simplest codes tending towards enormously complex chaotic structures reminiscent of noise, but not annihilating. My own pessimistic tendency heads towards plasmas, the inconceivable alienness of space, dark matter, strings, quarks with problematic spins, all these things tearing at our pretence to eternity and even towards comprehensino. Brillouin, a French physicist, created the idea decades ago that our knowledge of the physical world is tied directly to economics - the larger the machinery, the more energy consumed - the greater the number of anomalies. It's not even known if there's an end to it. The current Linux Journal describes software developed to manage the industrial processes of high-energy physics machine fabrication - already another mini-industry in itself. Code or annihilation of code, presence or absence, interrupting parasite or well-loved guest, the world is a miracle. - Alan http://www.asondheim.org/ http://www.asondheim.org/portal/.nikuko http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt Trace projects http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm finger sondheim@panix.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 23:50:07 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: WE NEED YOU! Tell us your words and get poems doing so. Comments: To: WRYTING-L Disciplines Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v543) Content-Type: text/plain; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Make poetry online by taking a few minutes of your day and typing out online vocabulary searches. It's easy, you can do it on your own time at your own pace, and you get good poems doing so. Most users are making between 20-150 poems per hour typing out tiny forms. Some can be done online, some in person, and you can even get other poetry and books for free while you type! This is a really cool opportunity and I suggest you use it! To begin the signup process. To the skeptical people, this is an easy way of making poetry. It's not fake, if you look on the site you will see examples of BIG POETS and links to their websites, of well known ones, who offer you poems to occupy your tiny lives. Please don't pass this up, it's only open for the next few weeks. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859- 1&q=big+poets+tiny+lives+typing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 00:30:11 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christine Murray Subject: Re: discrepancy/editing.women&men/ethnicity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Martha, Terrific poem, this "Trophies"! Thanks for posting it. Best Wishes, Chris Murray http://texfiles.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 05:39:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Snider Subject: Re: Silliman's Blog In-Reply-To: <200401200505.i0K54v1V015000@mac.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v609) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Jan 20, 2004, at 12:04 AM, Automatic digest processor wrote: > Subject: Silliman's Blog > > http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ > > > Bizarre-Misreading-of-the-Week Award: > Mike Snider > Not bizarre, Ron, just too flip, and I've apologized publicly for that. You spent the first two thirds what might have been a good post on January 2nd post ( http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ 2004_01_01_ronsilliman_archive.html#107304337280793398 ) in a truly bizarre attempt at a typographical demonstration that the poetic line is inherent in the shapes of letters, and you've ignored subsequent discussions of the issue here ( http://www.ksilem.com/weblog/mt-comments.cgi?entry_id=372 ) and here ( http://www.ksilem.com/weblog/mt-comments.cgi?entry_id=374 ). If you'd care to actually talk about it, fine. Otherwise, pfft! Michael ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 12:52:02 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: a partial chrestomathy of naming spam In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable for Alan Sondheim inceptor frame cincinnati halloween" Beatrice Monk "sorry I was busy with a friend" Wilburn Darnell "stay safe and natural" Irma Homes "stop sending me that thanks" Lolita Galido "surfing" Kent Wallace "talk is cheap" Lupe Reagan "thank you a lot" Faith Stone "that clubroom commend consummate reproach Walker "nice to meet you" Rolando Branch "no prescription necessary" Dolores Hoover begging guy can so wait" Brady Grayson "that Hope can wait" Loretta Starr "they are way fallen girls in your city Loretta" Dillon Goodrich "this do?" Pamela Clark "this is hilarious" Sofia Pickens "this is way beyond bizarre" Madelyn P. Jones "understand that change needed" Rex Fuller "very hot as you told me" Jerome Maybury "we are wasting our time" Spring Swift "we can teach you to make your fortune online" Terry Head "weighty and inconvenient" Mohammed L. Piper "what are you gonna do with the new you?" Keith Britt "when exactly did you visit that page?" Chad Page "where can I contact you online?" Cecelia Eliot "where can I reach you" Tina Bradshaw "why" Emmylou Baxter "yes I live in Russia" Thad Devine "you better hurry to see Jessica before it=B9s too late" for take off" William devilish either power beginner airplane seal emperor accra hobbyhorse commodity donate Tumak "pssst free private parties" Russell Schmitz "ready" Kerri Crowder "re: again" Georgina sedimentation imprecision stressful classmate bien Edna Henderson Jovanovich awesome Morris "re, blue moon here too" Gerry Phillips "read this" Allen Craft stockholm carib cathodic Shockley stripe deck contradict chrome lighthearted "regarding a Fordism closing view" Cleo Crocker "re: incoming traffic" Joni Kati tungstate bangor gibe powdery eigenvector coda blackstone thirteen grimm contumacy "retail therapy is not helping definitely" Nanette MacKey "say from petri" Jolene pallid adipic evolve diversify bright mesozoic Shook "shuttle auxiliary" Althea Robertson "so ecology shuttering destabilize conductance rebel hereford blister burlesque Delta "odorous pauper" Zelda Joyce "only after 8pm" Barry Perkins "on Sunday morning thereabouts lifestyle pit acorn castigate gymnasium prostate Bishop diversionary cuprous far from you" Sophie Pugh "on the ultimate flotillas of fusion" Dana tribune foal Taylor Jesse Lorenz Sherwood database jeffersonian increase homecoming Fuller "out of respect for what you asked of me" Dodie swiss woeful henna mid tyrannicide hurt andorra meander Alvin =8Cbestial=B9 Sutherland "pay more or pay less, you choose" Cassandra Tompkins "people without shadow adsorbate setback european hater rhodolite feint domino horntail like that" Leslie Zamora "please can you answer me?" Darwin Sanders "preeminent diagnostician hatter as hades diagrammatic manipulate Carey connive staircase income Elinor continua fragrant hematite means what?" Rachel Ramos "prepare happen" Adam Atkins "missed your call" Juan matriculate pietism shipbuild bulletin analogous Mccauley intersect Afghanistan cyprian losable Blake "more than you=B9ll ever need" Megan Andrews "moldboard goucher captaincy" Melissa Birdbath nun willful twelfth jeremiah mnemonic christian portuguese deerstalker Affluence H. Newsome "most men need an herbal patch like this" Curt stubborn cruickshank adverbial avert belladonna marsh siesta duly shuck monstrosity Lawrence "my ICQ crashed I" Jonathon Gee "my life is meeting arcade transfuse diathesis Sigmund craft Salo fortitude McNaughton ridden arteriolosclerosis friends" Bryant Hunter "my name, it=B9s not important" Erik Boykin "my new vanderbilt gamma farce crouch dutch rinehart amnesia extrovert simplectic corvus car for next rally really rocks" Carla Pacheco "my sister would applicable burdock Letitia surname neoprene applique ladylike Reid Edgar tabulate like to know you" Sonya Murray "new bird with spring stocks" Loretta prophecy rivulet pinwheel destinate fate corrector southeast lummox azimuthal butyric bittersweet decisive life" Gabriella Cooley "I might meet you next holidays maybe" Anya Sams-Bartlett buyer attrition delphinium antecedent honest Stuart =8Cdialup=B9 Burnside "information for crisis" Marietta Mccauley "I think i have never known inconsolable curbside cream compulsory admiral judith preponderant Motion symptom occultation you" Rae Mays "I think you might be interested" Aurelia Hampton "jart francophile algonquin bulkhead anthropogenic torch poise marriage Billie abstract dervish tetravalent" Karen Acker "learn how thousands of people have quit their cross antaeus burgundian mice calculus beaten diabetes cowpoke debilitate Ned day jobs" Lydia Newton "let=B9s meet up tomorrow" Mindy Robertson "linelacker vector" Junior Nguyen statesmen praseodymium Sorenson Moreland Knock Mccaffery Knott respondent swimsuit C. plus Hyde "loving yourself is the beginning of loving life" Margarita Frontier Pry Milwaukee Thompson segmentation halo indicant malta coexist organ Sherry "methodology" Harvey Rossi "miracles do was your v ocation?" Kim Gamble "I apologise I Banned this Straw Government don't want me Jack I am not ready yet" Emerson Barton "I apologise I could not annotated John to sell it see me now and wey archival aching cupboard know that" Whitney Page "I dream her every night" Ashley Fontenot "I adroit corpsmen Mickey boastful contraception brute Rudy decorous albacore irrelevancy cannot do it sorry" Nzanga J. Mobutu "ingratiate frayed populous sauce" Maryellen perseverant separate inkwell delineate Elisha breakoff antipode mold Farr "it is a long long story" Isabelle Lugo "it is behavioral delicious faulty paradigmatic dextrose whiteface confiscate stoop precept sic 8pm here" Garland A. Morrison "it=B9s not a dream" Humberto Field "it=B9s chart devastate purpose egotism Carla dramatic beast autocorrelate cummin conquest not easy to find what you like" Wyatt Wood "it=B9s your profound bah pour tog amoeba gasify texan introductory gangway deoxyribonucleic barnstorm transversal gigawatt" Ollie Espinosa "forward me that again please" Fanny Blackburn "found this white man prosecution decrease contralateral stock mantissa Anna Phalanx inducible asterisk for you" Carrie Boddington "frilly cable indecipherable Hector" Jonathon Grover "get a titular bashful Kenneth sequin banquet hampshire westbound signature industrialism aerodynamic longer strategy" Caroline Schultz "ghastly staff" Royal Walter "great oil" Howard Irving "guaranteed bourn severe concession Kentucky grotesque tientsin buckhorn tiny plant libation to work or your money back" Mona Seymour "gumshoe" Miguel Pagan "half mohair animal empathy church videotape vixen game crab provisional crocus algebra litmus" Elizabeth Champion "hard as wood" Leopoldo G. May "have faith" Nate Will meal-time aryl Lynn spectacular can foundry balletic rubble charisma Dale "hello" Kendrick Epps "hello hello hello" Robert Koch "help yourself" Felicia Sondheim Breton triptych geopolitic cartridge chimique tackle candlelight caravan "hi" Garrett Kelly "how dust" Truman McDowell "can you answer me?" Brittney Bishop "chauffeur inexpressible" Kelly vigilante midmorn Sumner poincare seminarian cede camelback anisotropy McCoy affix Herbert "condescend" Georgie Bell "consulate priori mud-spattered ligatures" Marshall Mason "council auspicious dartmouth Yugoslavia update stratify economist clairvoyant fry gigabyte cossack astoria ketchup luck birdland" Kristen Toscano "current exist assonant imperative intestine" Helene Mccullough crock recursion archer crease pintail snazzy morris gouda cried "dearth" Valencia Griffiths "debonaire chalcocite gallstone debilitate" Demetrius Eastley "depressed?" Ward Lucas "did polymorph cheek degas melodic crocodile strident subterfuge dis infix anglicanism we meet on Iranian Revolutionary Council?" Bernadette Sapp "disparage change wi-fi pretext dispelled revenue populace carboxy moratorium tweeze citadel masonry caddy confirm nearest" Jena Engle "don=B9t call me at home please" Christy Whittacker "dreamy generic nicholas adore sumptuous spheroid impromptu screen accomplish edge demarcate Jorge" Duane Mansfield "eclat regretting muriatic" Alonzo Beck "ethnic punster familial chimpanzee divine Sylvester P. Lee gift asinine miocene clotheshorse luxurious premonition area-wide nearest existent indigestion cheesecake Annabel writes "imagine" Raymondo Holbrook "a legendary non-believer dies" Weston Latham "all michel interpolatory elegiac leeward Edward alcohol cockroach rhyming bee belle what you asked of me" Rob Deal "announcement, a hard night chaw myoglobin dramatist Reinhold benefice jacobian wit conjoin bravado antigorite bass coming" Stephanie Swift "aquaduct runic campfire" Elvira Seymour "are you in the strategist codetermine stay tannin bartok lascar mackerel amp anteroom barycentric know?" Ron Watten "are you shitting me?" Drew McGinnis "asia dreary bypath axial stupefaction Miles Genevieve nun sprite sunburn accede soprano a ccelerate balance" Liz Alexander "bear the respect you deserve" Tina Davis "become rich" Gill amply clime butt loaves trout borderline jarvin maximal indent escritoire Hicks "blanched attacks Liberia bibliography" Natasha Sheppard "blue moon here" Garrett Baca adrift caliphate yoghurt foster Ehrlich mobility county Antoinette circumlocution venal Kim arbitrator young "campaign ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 22:11:50 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ben Basan Subject: Chris Murray on Luminations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At long last, the final half of the Chris Murray interview on Luminations has just been posted! http://www.luminations.blogspot.com Also, the last two interviews on Luminations with Bill Marsh and Chris Murray will be the first installments of a new blog starting January 24th, The Interview: http://www.theinterview.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 10:02:00 -0330 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Hehir Subject: too much time on your hands? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > http://www.lares.dti.ne.jp/~yugo/storage/monocrafts_ver3/03/index.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 08:32:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Allen Bramhall Subject: same old blog but MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit after zero thoughtful consideration I changed the name of my blog from Rockets and Sentries to R/ckets and S/entries, so you might want to check that out. otherwise, it's just writing I've done daily for the past 5 months. weed it and reap. I'll tell you about my book later. Allen Bramhall ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 09:20:03 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Joris/Peyrafitte in Minneapolis In-Reply-To: <000901c3df59$e18810a0$508179a5@CPQ14954210161> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For anybody in Minneapolis and area: Thursday, January 22 at 7 p.m. WALKER ART CENTER & Rain Taxi Review of Books Present: Pierre Joris & Nicole Peyrafitte (with music & max-msp-jitter-patch by Holland Hopson) S U M E R I C A B A C H b o n e s A Voco-Visual Performance SUMERICABACHBONEs is a double tryptich: Thematically it moves from Mesopotamia to America to Europe, while formally it makes use of the range of possibilities of the performers' arts: sound (voice & instrumental compositions), text (poem, prose & whatever lies inbetween) and image (drawing, collage, painting, video). Poet and translator Pierre Joris left Luxembourg at age 19 & has since lived in the U.S., Great Britain, North Africa, and France. Rain Taxi praised his most recent collection, _Poasis: Selected Poems 1986-1999_, for "its physical, philosophical delight in words and their reverberations." Just out from Wesleyan U.P. is his collection of essays _A Nomad Poetics_. His recent translations include _4x1: Work by Tristan Tzara, Rainer Maria Rilke, Jean-Pierre Duprey & Habib Tengour_ and Abdelwahab Meddeb's _The Malady of Islam_. With Jerome Rothenberg he edited the award-winning anthology _Poems for the Millennium_. In 2004 Green Integer will reissue three volumes of his translations of Paul Celan: _Breathturn_, _Threadsuns_ and _Lightduress_. He currently teaches poetry and poetics at SUNY-Albany. During the fall of 2003 he was Berlin Prize Fellow at the American Academy in Berlin. Visit Pierre Joris's website at www.albany.edu/~joris/. Like the willful child in Marguerite Duras's _Les Enfants_, artist Nicole Peyrafitte resisted going to school, "because they were trying to teach me things that I didn't know." Each step of her work attempts to fulfill her compulsion to learn through a process of immersion that generates performances incorporating voice/paintings/drawings/collages/writing--and sometimes cooking. Peyrafitte has exhibited and performed her work throughout Europe and North America. Joris and Peyrafitte have collaborated for 14 years, most recently touring SUMERICABACHBONEs throughout the U.S. & Europe. Visit Nicole Peyrafitte's website at www.nicolepeyrafitte.com. ___________________________________________________________ The poet: always in partibus infidelium -- Paul Celan ___________________________________________________________ Pierre Joris 6 Madison Place Albany NY 12202 h: 518 426 0433 c: 518 225 7123 o: 518 442 40 85 email: joris@albany.edu http://www.albany.edu/~joris/ ____________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 09:13:23 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brent Bechtel Subject: Re: Silliman's Blog MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Snider" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2004 4:39 AM Subject: Re: Silliman's Blog > in a truly > bizarre attempt at a typographical demonstration that the poetic line > is inherent in the shapes of letters The architectural line is inherent in the shapes of bricks and boards and beams used to make buildings which exhibit lines. -Brent ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 10:22:56 -0500 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: FW: Desert City Poetry Series w/ Patrick Herron and Joseph Donahue, Carrboro, NC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please come to the reading on Thursday evening. Details below. Some recent press related to the event: Chapel Hill News: http://www.chapelhillnews.com/opinion/story/972331p-6917037c.html Durham Herald-Sun: http://www.proximate.org/articles/URNDetail2.htm Patrick http://proximate.org/works.htm ****************************** Please spread far and wide...... Who: Joseph Donahue, author of _Incidental Eclipse_ and _Terra Lucida_, Duke professor and quick draw king sans parallel. Who: Patrick Herron, author of _Hyperlustrous Purse_, ibilio.org footsoldier first class, NOT a sock puppet named Lester who has a dirty mouth and wrote a book called _Be Somebody_. What: Desert City Poetry Series, Reborn, Revived, Resuscitated, Relocated, Resurrected, Rejuiced -- Never Rehashed. When: Thursday, January 22nd, 8:00 pm Where: Sizl Gallery, 405 E. Main Street, Carrboro, NC, directly above the center of the earth. Why: cuz "the cold earth remains a belly" while "The god who dreams our world / does not sleep well" and "the fragrance of absence is an endless gift" yet to "copy out an alphabet you've never seen" is "the sky when in bloom" for "t0 lIv3 I5 t0 c0mpr0mI53 f0r th3 w4nt 0f, / th3 l0v3" when "One says simply: these words are burning. One says: we are the residue of what will be." See you there............... *Sizl Gallery: http://www.sizlgallery.com/ *The Durham Herald-Sun on the DCPS: http://www.heraldsun.com/features/54-434526.html *Patrick Herron: http://www.litvert.com/herron.html -and- http://www.carrboro.com/poetlaureate2003poem.html *Joseph Donahue: http://www.alsopreview.com/foley/jfdonahue.html -and- http://www.constantcritic.com/archive.cgi?rev=Jordan_Davis&name=Incident al%2 0Eclipse contact DCPS: Ken Rumble, Director -- rumblek@bellsouth.net from "Incidental Eclipse" by Joseph Donahue Pelicans descend & settle onto Nightmare Bay. In one life, the shops are closed. In another, a cataclysm, a harvest festival where your kisses are a netful of moons and stars made from foil. But the tremor in the air is that of a love yet to be given... The brochure promised our god would be the one of the second birth, not just a fox near midnight on the garden wall. Or a surge of white ocean fog blotting light and sound. Or words done in party-colored chalk, washed back to stone, and the summerhouse a char, raked over and sold. Room of the suicide, a blue cube of sky... Or a monastery window, constellations glittering. A drugstore: slip in hand, waiting for a name to be called, "The colors of my aura are dangerously sharpening..." Of the four forbidden subjects, this is the third: Creation's essential dissolve... You keep your head half turned away. On your medallion a glittering river turns into a cloud. New country where neither the boy nor the girl had ever been. A bitter mist over a pure lake, lush hairfall, full lips, there on that hillside, cities scattering out shrines and pathways though several from those years are dead and the sky-high hotel lounge turning slowly in the clear night air -- stars, the studs and rivets of some further adornment "This is only the first clue to your place here," your voice cuts in. "The truth all at once would only unhinge you..." "Man Eating Rice" by Patrick Herron Today I saw a man eating rice. Later I watched another man write a story about the man eating rice. Later still I saw another man so hungry he ate the paper on which the story was written the story of the rice and the man eating rice and the man who wrote about the man eating rice and the man eating the story about the man who was so hungry he wrote the story of the man who ate the story of the man eating rice. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 15:42:08 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Glass Subject: Interview and work--Jesse Glass Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear List, Just a note to say I have an interview up at http://www.muse-apprentice-guild.com/fall_2003/1interviews/jesse_glass/home.html Also a selection of 14 texts can be seen at: http://www.muse-apprentice-guild.com/fall_2003/1featured_writers/jesse_glass/home.html Jess ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 08:45:35 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Small Press Traffic Subject: This week at the Jamboree MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Come on out for the 2nd night of our annual showcase of poets as playwrights, directors, producers, actors ? it?s wild, it?s lovely, it?s SPT?s Poets? Theater Jamboree 2004. All seats $10 to benefit Small Press Traffic. Reservations recommended. Please call 415-551-9278 to make yours. Friday, January 23, 2004 at 7:30 p.m. Kate Colby & Todd Shalom, "Feinstein on the Beach" Joseph Lease, "The Nervous System," directed by Taylor Brady Tan Lin, "A Life Lived on Film," directed by Brent Cunningham Dana Teen Lomax & Danna Lomax, "Pas de Dough" Frank O'Hara, "Two Eclogues," directed by Mac McGinnes Camille Roy, "Lucy in the Sky" Hope to see you at the big show -- Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson Executive Director Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center at CCA 1111 -- 8th Street San Francisco, CA 94107 415.551.9278 http://www.sptraffic.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 01:29:50 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: furniture_ press Subject: ambit query Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 dear folks i so haplessly forgot - i know ken rumble and some other folks still need ambit journals that i promised. i have been hiding away and need to know who exactly needs ambits, and i mean even people who contributed. please let me knnow asap because my records are shot. love to all, keep something happening or something..chris -- _______________________________________________ Graffiti.net free e-mail @ www.graffiti.net Check out our value-added Premium features, such as an extra 20MB for just US$9.95 per year! Powered by Outblaze ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 12:53:24 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: submission period closed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Due to the healthy response to my call for submissions, I'm forced to close the submission period early. Much good work came in and quickly. I'm still sorting through the arrivals. Thank you all so much for your kind support of my little site. For those who have no idea what I'm talking about, go to WilliamJamesAustin.com and follow the Blackbox link. I'll make an announcement regarding the Spring gallery in the . . . Spring! Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com kojapress.com amazon.com b&n.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 19:35:52 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Hamilton-Emery Subject: Mailing list Comments: To: info@saltpublishing.com Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit SALT PUBLISHING MAILING LIST You are receiving this note from a poetry listserv you are subscribed to, not from Salt directly. We are rationalising our mailing lists at Salt, removing -all- existing users of the service and converting the email alerts service to an opt in system, validated through a browser. This is to prevent anyone receiving unsolicited emails from us. If you would like to remain a user of our service please go to: http://www.saltpublishing.com/mailinglist.htm Please note that AOL users cannot use their AOL accounts to receive email alerts as AOL interprets such alerts as spam and will take action against the sender. Please do not use your AOL account to join our list. Best wishes Chris _____________________________________________________ Chris Hamilton-Emery Editor Salt Publishing PO Box 937, Great Wilbraham PDO Cambridge, CB1 5JX, UK tel: +44 (0)1223 880929 (direct and voicemail) mobile: 07799 054889 email: cemery@saltpublishing.com web: http://www.saltpublishing.com ____________________________________________________ ** Geraldine Monk "Selected Poems" available now! ISBN 1876857692 ** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 13:11:38 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: Nano codes and a quiz! In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Thanks, Alan, for this lovely summation - it's helpful. Makes me want to ask, does or does not ones head/body go to sleep "in code" at night. Are one's dreams pre-coded or, code-breached, entries into the wild, leaping to form unique codes (poems), illuminated charms between infinite layers of codes beyond codes. (?) Poetic language - at its most actively present - a "decoding" rather than a (pre-fixed, time-permanent) "coding." Quiz winners, by the way, will be announced tomorrow. For late entries, the code to bust remains: CO SM (G) One winner so far. This is tough. Try it. Stephen V Blog: http://stephenvincent.durationpress.com on 1/19/04 9:30 PM, Alan Sondheim at sondheim@PANIX.COM wrote: > I think it's in Michael Benedikt's Cyberspace: First Steps, all the way > from the early 90s, the idea of a liquid architecture - which unites the > post-WTC hybrids and code itself; the latter is mobile, always in flux, > protocol-dependent, software/hardware dependent, just as these letters are > written in 'lower ascii,' another code necessary placed in the sendmail > protocols, the tcp/ip protocols, all the way back and fortha mong routers, > operating systems, radio transmissions, even wireless protocols. And there > is always a bit of illumination realizing that hitting a key on a computer > keyboard INTERRUPTS, and is read as an interrupt, that communication is an > interference in quietude or flux. > > At night one loses sleep, is it codes or noise and chaos? Wolfram provides > a way out, the simplest codes tending towards enormously complex chaotic > structures reminiscent of noise, but not annihilating. My own pessimistic > tendency heads towards plasmas, the inconceivable alienness of space, dark > matter, strings, quarks with problematic spins, all these things tearing > at our pretence to eternity and even towards comprehensino. Brillouin, a > French physicist, created the idea decades ago that our knowledge of the > physical world is tied directly to economics - the larger the machinery, > the more energy consumed - the greater the number of anomalies. It's not > even known if there's an end to it. The current Linux Journal describes > software developed to manage the industrial processes of high-energy > physics machine fabrication - already another mini-industry in itself. > > Code or annihilation of code, presence or absence, interrupting parasite > or well-loved guest, the world is a miracle. > > - Alan > > http://www.asondheim.org/ http://www.asondheim.org/portal/.nikuko > http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt > Trace projects http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm > finger sondheim@panix.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 21:04:30 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Frank Sherlock Subject: BBC E-mail: Bomber art attack furore spreads MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Frank Sherlock saw this story on BBC News Online and thought you should see it. ** Message ** Wow. ** Bomber art attack furore spreads ** Sweden seeks answers from the Israeli ambassador after he vandalises a work= of art depicting a suicide bomber. < http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/2/hi/europe/3408511.stm > ** BBC Daily E-mail ** Choose the news and sport headlines you want - when you want them, all in one daily e-mail < http://www.bbc.co.uk/dailyemail/ > ** Disclaimer ** The BBC is not responsible for the content of this e-mail, and anything said in this e-mail does not necessarily reflect the BBC's views. If you don't wish to receive such mails in the future, please e-mail webmasters@bbc.co.uk making sure you include the following text: I do not want to receive "E-mail a friend" mailings. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 13:37:04 -0800 Reply-To: poemcees@hotmail.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ishaq Organization: Selah7 http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html Subject: 1/24/04firstSHOWSHOWSHOWoftheyear MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (here's where i get about 90% of the list's attention...) FREE*FREE*FREE*FREE SATURDAY @ SOUTH BEACH/"KRUNK!" POEM-CEES set/DJ Stylus set 10:30 to 2:30am (and they do have food, as well as the "heavy-arm" drinks) Directions from Connecticut Ave / DC: http://tittsworth.com/misc/krunk_dir_con.htm Directions from I-495, 355 & others http://tittsworth.com/misc/krunk_dir_md.htm so, my man rhome says "Titts approached us about a show!!!" and i said: "uh, what?" rhome: "Titts! Show! 1/24/04! " dp: "hmmm- was that 2 or 3 T's?" rhome: "4!" dp: "a-HA! you must mean international man of mystery DJ Tittsworth of the legendary FREE "KRUNK!" party at South Beach in Bethesda, MD! the cat who wants you to come to this link- http://tittsworth.com/krunkindex.htm to see the latest dope contribution to the DC/MD/VA scene. one half of the infamous duo OPTIMIST TITTS, who have dedictated this week's show to the art of moving butts, aka body rockin', or better yet- FREEING THE MIND, TO ALLOW THINE HINDPARTS TO FOLLOW!!!" rhome: "oh yeah-yer (BREAK!!!)" ...yup- that's pretty much how the conversation went down... the translation, for all you folks who fear the lingo: we, POEM-CEES are performing sat. 1/24 here: http://tittsworth.com/krunkindex.htm also, DJ STYLUS of POEM-CEES will play records while YOU dance and YOU don't have to pay because it's FREE expect the unexpected... Buy "PARANOIA" now at: http://www.cdbaby.com http://www.amazon.com DJ Hut (Dupont Circle) Capitol City Records (U St. ) DCCD (Adams Morgan) GW Tower Records (Foggy Bottom) CD/Game Exchange (College Park) BLACKLUSTRE MASH UNIT POEM-CEES http://www.poemcees.com Soul Controllers http://www.worldsflyest.com -- - ___ Stay Strong "Peace sells but who's buying?" Megadeth "This mathematical rhythmatical mechanism enhances my wisdom of Islam, keeps me calm from doing you harm, when I attack, it's Vietnam" --HellRazah "It's not too good to stay in a white man's country too long" Mutabartuka http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html http://awol.objector.org/artistprofiles/welfarepoets.html http://ilovepoetry.com/search.asp?keywords=braithwaite&orderBy=date http://www.dpgrecordz.com/fredwreck/ http://www.lowliferecords.co.uk/ http://loudandoffensive.com/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/THCO2 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 16:53:32 -0500 Reply-To: olsonjk@delhi.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kirby Olson Organization: SUNY Delhi Subject: Re: more sensitivity needed from Shannon Compton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Shanna -- Nobody leaves this list. Ever. We will follow you like the penis enlargement ads that everybody gets in their email every morning (or is it just me?). This is my audience, and nobody can go until I say that they can go... I thought of a good lead-in, but don't have any material for today... Sensitivity Training as Psychological Warfare: a Proposed MLA Panel. I do this partially as a community service for those with low blood-pressure. Now, how about Kerry and Edwards placing first in the Iowa primaries? Sounds to me like they were trying to elect Kari Edwards.... I'm busy for a coupla days, but I'll be back! (as Arnold put it). -- Kirby Olson ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 16:28:10 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: more sensitivity needed from Shannon Compton In-Reply-To: <400DA35C.3F9A7C45@delhi.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v543) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit KIRBY THANKS FOR UNVEILING THE MASTER PLAN. SINCE WE'RE STUCK WITH YOU FOR PERPETUITY I WONDER IF YOU WOULD DO ME A FAVOR. I DON' T KNOW YOUR POETRY VERY WELL. I WONDER IF YOU WOULD (HUSH) POST YOUR FAVORITE CUTTING EDGE KNOCK READERS OFF THE CHAIR EXPERIMENTAL POEM THAT YOU HAVE WRITEEN. I HAVE TO BE ASSURED THAT I RESPECT YOUR EXPERIMENTAL POETENTIAL BEFORE I OPT INTO SUCH AN EXPERIENCE AS KIRBY OLSON AD INFINITUM INTO ETERNITY. cryogenically yours, mIEKAL On Tuesday, January 20, 2004, at 01:53 PM, Kirby Olson wrote: > Shanna -- Nobody leaves this list. Ever. We will follow you like the > penis > enlargement ads that everybody gets in their email every morning (or > is it just > me?). This is my audience, and nobody can go until I say that they > can go... > > I thought of a good lead-in, but don't have any material for today... > > Sensitivity Training as Psychological Warfare: a Proposed MLA Panel. > > I do this partially as a community service for those with low > blood-pressure. > > Now, how about Kerry and Edwards placing first in the Iowa primaries? > > Sounds to me like they were trying to elect Kari Edwards.... > > I'm busy for a coupla days, but I'll be back! (as Arnold put it). > > -- Kirby Olson > > 24/7 PROTOMEDIA BREEDING GROUND http://www.joglars.org http://www.spidertangle.net http://www.xexoxial.org http://www.neologisms.us http://www.dreamtimevillage.org "The word is the first stereotype." Isidore Isou, 1947. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 15:16:20 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Corbett Subject: Re: more sensitivity needed from Shannon Compton In-Reply-To: <400DA35C.3F9A7C45@delhi.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Matthew or Schwarzenneger? I think you are more of a School Inspector than a Terminator. Which is a compliment. Ask me sometime about my position that Arnold is a closet Nietzchean (he knew this at birth, but struggled mightily against it). rmc -- Robert Corbett, Ph.C. "Given the distance of communication, Coordinator of New Programs I hope the words aren't idling on the B40D Gerberding map of my fingertips, but igniting the Phone: (206) 616-0657 wild acres within the probabilities of Fax: (206) 685-3218 spelling" - Rosmarie Waldrop UW Box: 351237 On Tue, 20 Jan 2004, Kirby Olson wrote: > Shanna -- Nobody leaves this list. Ever. We will follow you like the penis > enlargement ads that everybody gets in their email every morning (or is it just > me?). This is my audience, and nobody can go until I say that they can go... > > I thought of a good lead-in, but don't have any material for today... > > Sensitivity Training as Psychological Warfare: a Proposed MLA Panel. > > I do this partially as a community service for those with low blood-pressure. > > Now, how about Kerry and Edwards placing first in the Iowa primaries? > > Sounds to me like they were trying to elect Kari Edwards.... > > I'm busy for a coupla days, but I'll be back! (as Arnold put it). > > -- Kirby Olson > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 17:20:16 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brent Bechtel Subject: Re: more sensitivity needed from Shannon Compton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Someone - maybe the resident physics guru, Sondheim - make a time machine so that we can (in the best sci-fi manner) go back in time and stop whatever events caused Kirby to go from a nice leftist, anarchist, counterculture boy to the mess of a rightist Oreilly-ite he is today. Either that or we clone him and create an evil (good?) twin for List purposes. Maybe have them fight each other and see who wins. Maybe the universe would implode. -Brent ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirby Olson" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2004 3:53 PM Subject: Re: more sensitivity needed from Shannon Compton > Shanna -- Nobody leaves this list. Ever. We will follow you like the penis > enlargement ads that everybody gets in their email every morning (or is it just > me?). This is my audience, and nobody can go until I say that they can go... > > I thought of a good lead-in, but don't have any material for today... > > Sensitivity Training as Psychological Warfare: a Proposed MLA Panel. > > I do this partially as a community service for those with low blood-pressure. > > Now, how about Kerry and Edwards placing first in the Iowa primaries? > > Sounds to me like they were trying to elect Kari Edwards.... > > I'm busy for a coupla days, but I'll be back! (as Arnold put it). > > -- Kirby Olson ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 17:23:28 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Camille Martin Subject: readings in toronto MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Don't know if my first message went through. Anyway, if someone would let me know of poetry readings in Toronto between Su, 2/22 & Th, 2/26, I'd greatly appreciate it. Camille Camille Martin 7725 Cohn St. New Orleans, LA 70118 (504) 861-8832 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 20:11:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Administration Subject: Listserv Overview: please review MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dear all: please take the time to review the guidelines for the listserv, especially section 6 on "Cautions" where we define what flaming is and why we don't do it. All best, Lori Emerson poetics listserv moderator --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------- W E L C O M E T O T H E P O E T I C S L I S T S E R V Sponsored by the Poetics Program, Department of English, State University of New York at Buffalo Poetics List Moderator: Lori Emerson Please address all inquiries to: poetics@acsu.buffalo.edu (note that it may take up to a week to receive a response from us) Snail mail: Poetics Program c/o Lori Emerson, 438 Clemens Hall, SUNY Buffalo, NY 14260 Poetics Listserv Archive: http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/archives/poetics.html Electronic Poetry Center: http://epc.buffalo.edu C O N T E N T S: 1. About the Poetics List 2. Subscriptions 3. Subscription Options 4. To Unsubscribe 5. Posting to the List 6. Cautions This Welcome Message updated 24 March 2003. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Above the world-weary horizons New obstacles for exchange arise Or unfold, O ye postmasters! 1. About the Poetics List With the preceeding epigraph, the Poetics Listserv was founded by Charles Bernstein in late 1993. Now in its third incarnation, the list carries about 1000 subscribers worldwide, though all of these subscribers do not necessarily receive messages at any given time. A good number of other people read the Poetics List via our web archives (see web-address above). Our aim is to support, inform, and extend those directions in poetry that are committed to innovations, renovations, and investigations of form and/or/as content, to the questioning of received forms and styles, and to the creation of the otherwise unimagined, untried, unexpected, improbable, and impossible. We recognize that other lists may sponsor other possibilities for exchange in this still-new medium. We request that those participating in this forum keep in mind the specialized and focused nature of this project, and respect our decision to operate a moderated list. For subscription information or to contact the moderators, write to . This is a private list and information about this list should not be posted to other lists or directories of lists. The idea is to keep the list membership to those with specific rather than general interests, and also to keep the scale of the list relatively small and the volume manageable. The current limits of the list are 50 messages per day, and two messages per subscriber per day. The Poetics List is a moderated list. Due to the high number of subscribers, we no longer maintain the open format with which the list began (at under 100 subscribers). The specific form of moderation that we employ is a relatively fluid one: in most cases, messages are reviewed after having been posted to the list, and difficulties resolved on that basis; however, the list moderators may shift with impunity between this and a pre-review mode which calls for all messages to be read and approved before being forwarded to the list. We prefer to avoid this option, as it hampers the spontaneity of discussion that we hope to promote. In addition to these options, the list moderators may place subscribers who find themselves unable to abide by the rules of the list under individual review, in which case only their messages would be received for moderators' approval before being forwarded to the list. We remain committed to this editorial function as a defining element of the Poetics List (for further information please see section 6 of this Welcome Message). Those few individuals who are no longer welcome to post on this list have forfeited that right because of their refusal to abide by list policies as stated in this Welcome message. While we adhere to a practice of not discussing particular cases on the list, the areas of our greatest concern include flaming of other list subscribers, including the list owners, and/or giving us false registration information. Please note some individuals have publicized false accounts of the policies of the Poetics List. We have deemed it unwise to respond directly to the flames of the list, preferring simply to note here that the Poetics List exists to support and encourage divergent points of view on Modern and contemporary poetry and poetics. We are committed to do what is necessary to preserve this space for such dialog. For this reason, the list has always been private or moderated. Further information on posting to the list for subscribers, publishers and series-coordinators, see sections 5 and 6. In addition to being archived at through the EPC (http://epc.buffalo.edu) and at http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/archives/poetics.html, some posts to Poetics (especially reviews, obituary notices, announcements, etc.) may also become part of specific EPC subject areas. Brief reviews of poetry events and publications are always welcome; we also encourage posts that announce events important to our subscribers. See section 5 for details. ---------------- 2. Subscriptions Subscriptions to the Poetics List are free of charge, but formal registration is required. We ask that when you subscribe you provide your full name, street address, email address, and telephone number. All posts to the list should provide your full real name, as registered. If there is any discrepancy between your full name as it appears in the "from" line of the message header, please sign your post at the bottom. PLEASE NOTE: All subscription-related information and correspondence remains absolutely confidential. To subscribe to the Poetics List, please contact the moderators at the lists' administrative address . Your message should include all of the required information. All other questions about subscriptions, whether about an individual subscription or subscription policy, should be addressed to this same administrative address. PLEASE NOTE: IT MAY TAKE SEVERAL WEEKS TO PROCESS SUBSCRIPTION REQUESTS. The most frequent problem with subscriptions is bounced messages. If your system is often down or if you have a low disk quota, Poetics messages may get bounced. Please try avoid having messages from the list returned to us. If the problem is low disk quota, you may wish to request an increased quota from your system administrator. You might also consider obtaining a commercial account. In general, if a good number of Poetics messages are bounced from your account, your subscription to Poetics will be temporarily suspended. If this happens, you may re-subscribe to the list by contacting the moderators at. ----------------- 3. Subscription Options We encourage you to alter your subscription options via the link on the right side of the screen at http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/archives/poetics.html. If you would prefer not to use the web-interface, you may also email the following commands: *to receive posts in the default option (you will receive individual postings immediately), send this one-line message with no "subject": set poetics nodigest * to receive the list in digest form (you will receive the day's individual posts in one email sent just after midnight EST), send this one-line message with no "subject": set poetics digest * to receive the list in index form (you will receive a list, without the text of the posts, of the subjects discussed each day along with the author's name and address and the number of lines it comprises; you can also choose to have the index sent to you in either plain text or in HTML format with hyperlinks), send this one-line message with no "subject": set poetics nohtml index --or-- set poetics html index *to temporarily turn off Poetics mail send this one-line message with no "subject": set poetics nomail *to reactivate Poetics mail send this one-line message with no "subject": set poetics mail PLEASE NOTE: do not leave your Poetics subscription "active" if you are going to be away for any extended period of time. Your account may become flooded and you may lose not only Poetics messages but other important mail. ----------------------- 4. To Unsubscribe To unsubscribe (or change any of your subscription options) go to the right-hand side of the screen at http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/archives/poetics.html You may also may unsubscribe by sending a one-line email to with no "subject": unsub poetics If you are having difficulty unsubscribing, please note: sometimes your e-mail address may be changed slightly by your system administrator. If this happens you will not be able to send messages to Poetics or to unsubscribe, although you will continue to receive mail from the Poetics List. To avoid this problem, unsub using your old address, then return to your new address and contact the moderators at to resubscribe. If you find that it is not possible to unsub using your old address, please contact the moderators at for assistance. -------------------------- 5. Posting to the List The Poetics List is a moderated list. All messages are reviewed by the moderators in keeping with the goals of the list as articulated in this Welcome Message (see section 1). Please note that while this list is primarily concerned with discussions of poetry and poetics, messages relating to politics and political activism, film, art, media, and so forth are also welcome. Feel free to query the list moderators if you are uncertain as to whether a message is appropriate. All correspondence with the moderators regarding submissions to the list remains confidential and should be directed to us at . We strongly encourage subscribers to post information on publications and reading series that they have coordinated, edited, published, or in which they appear. Such announcements constitute a core function of this list. Brief reviews of poetry events and publications are always welcome. To post to the Poetics List, send your messages directly to the list address: Please do not send messages intended for posting to the list to our administrative address For further information on posting to the list, see section 6 below. ------------------- 6. Cautions "Flame" messages will not be tolerated on the Poetics List. In this category are included messages gratuitously attacking fellow listees or the list owners, also messages designed to "waste bandwidth" or cause the list to reach its daily limit. These messages are considered offensive and detrimental to list discussion. Offending subscribers will be placed on temporary review (see section 1). Repeat offenders will be removed from the list immediately. Please do not put this policy to test. For reasons of basic security, we do not allow pseudononymous subscriptions. We also discourage the sending of HTML-formatted messages to the list. All messages intended for the Poetics List should be sent in Text-Only format. Please also do not send attachments or include extremely long documents (1,000+ words) in a post. Messages containing attachments will be presumed to be worm- or virus-carrying and will not be forwarded to the list. Please do not publish list postings without the express permission of the author. Posting on the list is a form of publication. Copyright for all material posted on Poetics remains with the author; material from this list and its archive may not be reproduced without the author's permission, beyond the standard rights accorded by "fair use" of published materials. As an outside maximum, we will accept no more than 2 messages per day from any one subscriber. Also, given that our goal is a manageable list (manageable both for moderators and subscribers), the list accepts 50 or fewer messages per day. Like all systems, the listserv will sometimes be down: if you feel your message has been delayed or lost, *please wait at least one day to see if it shows up*, then check the archive to be sure the message is not posted there; if you still feel there is a problem, you may wish to contact the moderators at . --------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------- E N D O F P O E T I C S L I S T W E L C O M E M E S S A G E ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 20:23:44 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Craig Allen Conrad Subject: Re: Diversity & its simulation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kirby, baby, if this is some kind of ploy to get your dick sucked so we queers can prove we're queer, think again. well, actually, i shouldn't speak for everyone, so i'll just say i'm not interested in proving anything to you. if anyone wants to say they're queer, for whatever reason, who am i stand in their way in the end anyway? Drexel University has had its share of queer bashing by frat boys. in fact, there were two queer households in the neighborhood where the frat house bulges its Greek testosterone driven letters. the "boys" had a habit of beating the shit out of the men and grabbing their cocks through their designer jeans when the lesbians walked by. they then started going onto the porches of these gay men and lesbians and setting fire to their rainbow flags. of the 25 other homes on the block, EVERYone bought rainbow flags in support, leaving only the frat house flagless. all this just a year ago. but just think Kirby, if you'd finally come out of the closet, maybe you too could cash-in on the goodies we queers receive! black eyes for instance. let your deviant doors fly open Kirby, i'll catch you when you fly out, unless i'm preoccupied with my obsession for making millions on my good gay graces. actually, if you lived in Philadelphia i'd hunt you down and kick your ass. then maybe have a beer with you and laugh at the meatball ideas you dream. CAConrad >> There are even some writers who have had sex-change operations (I know >> of only one, and am too afraid to mention the name, because this guy is >> crazy) who have turned from man into woman in order to get published. I >> don't know that many people, so if I know of one clear case out of the >> 200 or so people that I actually know, then there are others. >> >> Many many people who claim to be gay are not, or are so only in order to >> get preferential treatment. >> >> A real gay person is oriented toward the same sex from childhood. If >> you suddenly realize you are gay at 25 when it seems that you can get a >> job and be taken seriously if you are gay, you are probably not really >> gay. You are just an opportunist. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 20:36:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: Nano codes and a quiz! In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII There are times I'll dream in sheaves of rolling texts, or, in a normal dream, have the urge, sometimes successfully, to edit it; there's always a version of Adobe Premier or some such at hand. The texts are usually the standard green-on-black that appears in older terminal windows by default - most often unreadable. Sometimes a phrase will stand out. Sometimes a phrase will wake me, and I'll reassemble the same. But I'm not a 'real' program - I don't dream code, so much as code's oulipo. - Alan http://www.asondheim.org/ http://www.asondheim.org/portal/.nikuko http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt Trace projects http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm finger sondheim@panix.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 02:01:59 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Glass Subject: Have some Jesse Glass cake! Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" It's delicious! http://www.lemonscookbook.com/archives/jesse_glass_cake.html Jesse Glass ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 04:00:19 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karl-Erik Tallmo Subject: Re: Nano codes and a quiz! In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >There are times I'll dream in sheaves of rolling texts, or, in a normal >dream, have the urge, sometimes successfully, to edit it; there's always a >version of Adobe Premier or some such at hand. The texts are usually the >standard green-on-black that appears in older terminal windows by default >- most often unreadable. Sometimes a phrase will stand out. Sometimes a >phrase will wake me, and I'll reassemble the same. But I'm not a 'real' >program - I don't dream code, so much as code's oulipo. > >- Alan > >http://www.asondheim.org/ http://www.asondheim.org/portal/.nikuko >http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt >Trace projects http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm >finger sondheim@panix.com It's even worse here. Maybe it occurs after especially long sessions at the computer - I am not sure - but it happens while I am still awake, that I get the idea - just for a split second, and then I am back to normal again - that I could (in my real-life, in my real-room, or real-kitchen) just look at some object which I would like to dispose of - just look at it, and by this highlight it and then press some imaginary delete key - and gone it would be. Or in the kitchen, standing there with a cup of newly made coffee - better make that two cups, my wife says from the living room - and for a short moment, while I blink my eye, it is as if I could just highlight the cup, without even touching it, and then copy and paste a clone of it onto my tray ... Karl-Erik Tallmo PS. A night's sleep usually resets my params. -- _________________________________________________________________ KARL-ERIK TALLMO, writer, editor ARCHIVE: http://www.nisus.se/archive/artiklar.html BOOK: http://www.nisus.se/gorgias ANOTHER BOOK: http://www.copyrighthistory.com MAGAZINE: http://art-bin.com _________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 22:42:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: schwartzgk Subject: Re: Have some Jesse Glass cake! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ah... the next Ronald Johnson! --Jerry Schwartz > It's delicious! > > http://www.lemonscookbook.com/archives/jesse_glass_cake.html > > Jesse Glass > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 00:00:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Subject: Summary of Empire MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ate: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 21:43:30 -0500 rom: Ian S. Murray ubject: Summary of Empire proudest people on earth. Your country exists the freest people on earth. The Three Branches of Government are We are the Three Branches of Government. You will bark if we say bark. If Your sports are stupid sports. Your songs are stupid songs. flooding rivers and millions killed. the world. destroying our country. earth. irrelevant. The Three Branches of Government our world of entertainment. Internet. ommentary by Alan: that's about it. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 00:00:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: uns*bscr%b^ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII uns*bscr%b^ spam 'uns*bscr%b^' notices: we've got the encompassing of the dialectic just as marxism and psychoanalysis attempt to absorb all contradictions. think of spam as the theory of capital. or as the false theory of capital, or as sartre's theory of the inauthentic: for 'uns*bscr%b^' rarely works, but in fact contributes to the maximization of profits. the dialectic has no resolution; capital oozes in, transforms the ontology to its proper status: that of abstract and increasing quantity. the opposite is the same, vis-a-vis irigaray: if one does not click on uns*bscr%b^, one, by default, contributes to spam's increased production: 'i want it.' thus the opposite is eliminated 'in any case,' of which wittgenstein's 'the world is all that is the case' is more than apropos. even here, in this brief notice, one must protect oneself: uns*bscr%b^. - ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 23:33:25 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christine Murray Subject: More sensitivity needed from Kirby Olson MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Dear Kirby, 1. In part I'm posting this because I wanted to change the terms of the subject line in the thread you began. I did so to reflect more accurately the topic and the course of this thread--especially since it contained someone's name and was stated in a way that could easily be misinterpreted as an (uncalled for, and yet also a repeating) criticism. 2. I'm also wondering about the reason for the name-dropping contained in the text of that initial post you made, which begins the thread--I wonder if you realize that the way you've mentioned these other people seems uncalled for and unfair. Chris Murray ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 01:40:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: fiction, passage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII fiction, passage i am addicted to novels. i am reading journey to the west. wonderful elements of taoism. magical taoism whick killed the emperor. ennin wrote about that. you see the emperor was taking magic elixirs to live for ever. but no one lives forever! monkey is in it but it reads very differently in the full version than in waley's condensation. also five taoist classics which contains the chinese; i can make out a sentence or two. the character for 'between' is useful. most popular novels are pretty bad. plots are exaggerated and you have to be a dunce to fall for the willing suspension of disbelief. things are added in incoherency in order to manipulate the reader. the world is picaresque; these novels are not. there are always criminals teasing lawmakers because we know that criminals want to be caught. they are criminals! and there are conspiracies as well; nothing exists in terms of appearance only. it's magical belief! elixir! it kills. as does the addiction itself. my head fills with swollen emptiness. no exaggeration, it will go off with a bang. so i'm turning to mencius; he's got cases, anecdotes, and questioning that can only remind one of xenophon's socrates. for there are many socrates, the world splits as well. are you aware that i'm nearer to death than you are? soon i will see inconceivable things, things you might dream of forever. the world will turn dark and these words will be all that's left. _ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 01:47:47 -0500 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: Sensitivity Training... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gals have all the fun doing # 1 Moi's mamas a skank on the stilleto line for Manolo Blanc Since i've got no class I want to reve gauche 'em up the ass O lordy when i come it's bitch bitch bitch that i hum to the tune of glory be there'll all way be an academy... drn.. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 01:09:32 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: SNEAK PREVIEW OF GLITCH MILLENNIUM SERIF Comments: To: WRYTING-L Disciplines , spidertangle@yahoogroups.com Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v543) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit c o l o p h o n GLITCH was created in 1989 by mIEKAL aND & Amendant Hardiker specifically for the book "Gris Gris Malkuth" by Jake Berry & John Eberly published by Xexoxial Editions. GLITCH MILLENNIUM SERIF permutated & populated by mIEKAL aND in 2004. Sometimes it just plain OK if the alignment of the ascender is an unpredicted variation of the x-height. Are some glyphs laughing at the propriety of all characters being the same precise weight? Intended as a display face for agit prop design, it can also be coaxed into a text face down to 12 pt. Optimized for the display of inelegant coding. http://www.xexoxial.org/FONTS/glitch_millennium.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 00:14:04 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffre Jullic Subject: Re: Discrepancies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I agree with Max that Noah's numbers are extremely problematic and unreliable. In college, they used to talk about "Rocks for Jocks" (geology courses dumbed down to get the sports scholarship students through science requirements) and --"Poets' Math." Noah's numbers, upon closer inspection, belie the implied moral he draws from them, I believe. They may show the ~opposite~ of what's being read into them. What they show is a "patriarchal society" where ~over a quarter~ of the journals counted (8 out of 30) either include male/female authors' names in equal numbers or where there are more female names than male. How insidiously patriarchal is over a quarter egalitarian/female majority? And, if you accept, as I would, that a range of 54% male/46% female to 57% male/43% female is ~quite good~ for a patriarchal society (and that the standard error of Noah's numbers alone may account for that difference, since, as Anthony Robinson pointed out, there is miscounting involved),--- then almost half (43%) of the journals show equal numbers, more females than males, or that narrow 55.5%-to-44.5% difference. If, as some editors have been attesting, submissions themselves are weighted toward about 70% male, then journals are ~mis~-representative in doing better than those realities. All that ~Affirmative Action~ asks, by law, is that a workplace ~meet~ the distribution of the general population, within any particular field. If women are only 1% of the general population for, say, butchers, then one percent hired ~satisfies~ Affirmative Action. ~Being and Nothingness~ defines "bad faith" as the x-that-is-more-than-y: "the love that is more than love"; the waiter who is more than a waiter. By trying to ~do better~ than a 70%/30% ratio that the actual submissions consist of, things are entering into The Action That Is ~More Affirmative Than~ Affirmative Action. There are fields where the male/female-female/male ratio differs. Pool halls are disproportionately male. Manicure parlors are disproportionately female. It may very well be the case that experimental poetry is a game that most women are ~too smart~ to play. Or, as Mark pointed out, that most female first name poets have gone over to "School of Quietude" journals. Regardless, attempts to reconstruct Noah's numbers by checking on-line table of contents for the issues involve show a very different picture. Noah and Sara were (excluding translators, many of whom were female but) counting ~every~ name in the table of contents, and conflating poets with essayists, short story writers, reviewers, and ---Dead White Males like ~Catullus~ and ~Tristan Tzara!~ whose moldering antiquity places them in a completely separate category, I would say, that doesn't represent some sort of place-in-the-sun-stealing threat to ~anybody.~ Within those different sub-groups, the imbalance for, say, short story writers (at a glance) is vastly more weighted toward males than for poets. This further distorts the numbers. When Max says, "Rather than counting the number of poets, why not count the number of pages those poets' work takes up? But then the question arises: why do so much counting?",--- I'd take him one step further: why not count ~the number of letters in the authors' names~ and whether male/female falls on odd/even pages? Unanalyzed, unsystematized, uncrunched numbers left in and of themselves as though they were in scare quotes show nothing. More impression-biassing to Noah's presentation is the ~anecdote~ that he lays out at the beginning ("my partner, the poet Sara Veglahn, had perused it's pages for a while. . . . the first thing she said was"). It's that that skews a narrative onto those mute and arguable numbers, ---or leads the un-statistics-minded to just glaze out entirely at their cacaphonous jumble. (Excuse my cynicism, please: "the first thing she said was",--- as if Diotima herself had appeared at the end of Plato to bring Socrates the truth!) The gratuitous framing of these questions in heterodominant self-portraiture does not add to their believability, for me. Taking a tattooed War of The Sexes that may exist in your apartment out onto the Poetics List is only a re-inscribing of gender onto sex from the personal sphere into the public. Who ever told you you were a man in the first place?! (and so redundantly: "a man ( or as the particular 'man' that I am)") Maybe because he's so busy counting out that wad of fifties I threw on the bed, My Last Hustler can't find even ~one~ male prostitute in those journals, Noah. (He only counts ~inches!~) . . . Which of the following, two, "equally good" poem excerpts should not have been published in ~26: issue B,~ on the basis that its author has a male name? 1 Ears stoppered sailing straight through strait's swift steering away all the same Each death is a little valve 2 scripted tolerance compensators were not summarized in the final report rectangular volume object had all faces in it was supposed to be all other sides What does the sex of an author ~signify~ in a dominant style of writing that is, for the most part, based on dispensing with all the biographical markers of the author? To quote the poet Sara Veglahn's poem, "The lakes unsafe . . .", from that same issue: "It is likely ~I~ will be lost" (my emphasis). Is the word "breast" ("breast wove w winter-cure mustard) more female when Geraldine Monk uses it, than when Valerie Coulton contaminates ~l'ecriture feminine~ by collaborating with Ed Smallfield on the line "a year of breasts and cigarettes", in the same issue? If there are questions here, the biggest question is: what vestigial relevance to the reading of a poem does author's sex, race, economic status, sexual preference, or whatever have when those poems have completely foreclosed all those identity politics? ("his or her asteroid" ---Hung Q. Tu, in the ~Aufgabe~ that Noah counts) Interestingly, ---and as paradoxical as it sounds--- those numbers show a ~negative correlation~ between the size of the journal and the number of ~both~ male (-.80) and female (-.47) authors' names. That is, the fewer the number of authors there are in a journal, men are only around 20% more likely to appear, but women are almost 50% more likely to be included. There's a double-bind in Noah's "Unclear" category, too. Where sex is not unclear because the author is using initials, it's unclear because the first name is ~"ethnic"~ and not recognizably Western. So, ethnic identity actuals ~competes with~ sexual parity in those numbers. If the authors didn't have ethnic names, there'd be more women to count. If there's a bean, I'll count it: Using the Eli Gordon approximation method (based solely on first names, with numerous "Unclear"), the on-line Fence mastheads since issue 3n2 would seem to show the number of female poets included to be steadily declining. 6n1 10 F out of 38 poets = .26 5n2 12 F out of 32 poets = .37 5n1 16 F out of 48 poets = .33 4n2 16 F out of 36 poets = .44 4n1 21 F out of 41 poets = .51 3n2 21 F out of 33 poets = .63 Horrors. WHAT HAS MAX WINTER DONE WITH REBECCA WOLFF, ANYWAY?! ("Put it down. Put the phone down now." --- Timothy Donnelly, "Accidental Species") I find it very disturbing, after all the words I (or any poet) have tried so carefully to choose in the poems that I submit to journals, that I might be rejected on the basis of the one, single word that I did ~not~ choose but that my parents chose instead: my first name. (The scratch paper Excel spreadsheet I'm basing my numerical analysis on can be double-checked at http://jeffreyjullich.tripod.com/NUMBERS.xls.) Jeffre __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 08:37:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joshua Corey Subject: my belated book announcement MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit SELAH (Barrow Street Press, 2003) "With Selah Joshua Corey joins a generation of exciting first-book poets (Jennifer Clarvoe, Joanie Mackowski, Cate Marvin come to mind) who apply the fundamental poetic gift of the ear, in new ways. Sheer richness of language, and in the best poems cadences layered like those of Wallace Stevens, guide the reader through Corey's extravagant, playful, fantastical and profuse otherworld." -Robert Pinsky "Joshua Corey's book maps new territory in the indefatigable search for an adequate form of elegy. These poems meditate in a timeless manner on the terrible NOT at the center of death, but they do so to new music, one that embodies sly humor, formal invention, and rhetorical bravado. They are original, sophisticated and unabashed." -Mary Jo Bang "Deep engager, Joshua Corey seeks to redeem what is 'singed' and 'wared' in us with 'the pupa's word. Dazzled weresong' ('man' song, a 'we're' or 'we are' song), one made strange from the straits of the problem. Through a ravishing compact formal beauty comes 'white sound crashing . . . on the shoals of . . . sleep.' He has gone so far into disillusion and aporia that he seems about to emerge out the other side, as through one of those suddenly wavering, watery space- and time-walls in a science-fiction film. What if it really is as he says: 'my mouth is full of his breath. / His tongue is in my mouth, and his name / is every body I see'? Selah: lift up! He keeps you hooked; he keeps you tantalized."-Cal Bedient Now available at www.barrowstreet.org, Amazon.com, and independent bookstores. ------------------------------ http://joshcorey.blogspot.com ------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 06:45:01 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kazim Ali Subject: If you have a jones to hear the noise... In-Reply-To: <001201c3e023$ac172120$e541a918@HAL> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Kazim Ali "Instruction Piece: The New Relevance of Yoko Ono" Monday January 26, 8pm Poetry Project at St Mark's Church New York City check www.poetryproject.com for all the details. PS Yes I *will* be singing the "Mulberry" song and perhaps there will be a performance or too if you're lucky and prompt. ===== ==== WAR IS OVER (if you want it) (e-mail president@whitehouse.gov) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 11:15:35 -0330 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Hehir Subject: iowa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII could someone down there please explain to me what happened in Iowa? Does this mean that the Democrats are, in effect, going to follow Kerry into the natioal election? I try to follow it on-line through various websites but I'm a bit confused as I thought Dean was strong. Also, did Michael Moore's endorsement of Clark count for anything? backchannel is fine. thanks, kevin -- --------------------------- http://paulmartintime.ca/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 09:50:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Landers, Susan" Subject: gender imbalance in Pom2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" We -- the editors of Pom2, that is -- were really excited by the number of women who contributed to Pom2 issue 4. Our previous issue had a severely imbalanced gender ratio (in favor of men) so we took steps to make up for that in the following issue. (Our editorial board is still imbalanced with 3 women and 1 man, but none of us seem to mind.) I think it is terribly important to solicit work from women, and to follow up, and to ask women who have contributed to share the magazine with others. It has been more difficult to get contributions from women, and I don't know "why" that is. In a sense though, I don't really care too much about the reasoning behind it -- I just want to do something about it. So, if that means waiting a longer time between issues so that we receive more work from women or if we have to send out calls for submissions in places that perhaps we didn't think to do so at first, fine. I think it's worth the trouble so that we can more accurately reflect the communities we participate within, and to better experience and present the range of work that is out there. That said, we have a lot to learn about finding more voices from people of color, and have made few strides in that arena. We have been pretty good at queering up the issues. I think editing the magazine is all about balancing a wide variety of criteria and sometimes you come out better on some things than on others. That said, I second the remark on turning to Chain for some answers. Chain is a magazine which in many ways seems to take these issues on directly and resolve/wrangle with it in fascinating ways. It seems to me to be a great example of editorial vision manifesting fully in the work within it. Susan Landers ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 08:57:58 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: If you have a jones to hear the noise... In-Reply-To: <20040121144501.30848.qmail@web40801.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v543) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I jones for a steady diet of noise but I live in the well-grazed pastures of Wisconsin. Will there be some mp3s online? mIEKAL On Wednesday, January 21, 2004, at 06:45 AM, Kazim Ali wrote: > Kazim Ali > "Instruction Piece: The New Relevance of Yoko Ono" > Monday January 26, 8pm > Poetry Project at St Mark's Church > New York City > > check www.poetryproject.com for all the details. > > PS Yes I *will* be singing the "Mulberry" song and > perhaps there will be a performance or too if you're > lucky and prompt. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 08:58:51 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brent Bechtel Subject: gender in balance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The male | female distinction with regard to journals does follow a = rather rigid binary construction. To be accurate, some survey work should be done asking contributors how = male or female they feel, or which gender they identify with more, and = maybe some items on the survey designed to measure degree of maleness or = femaleness, as a subjective description, and then maybe compared to = current societal constructions of gender. For example, it's entirely possible that a number of the men = contributing to a journal could be androgynes of a sort - sure there = might be some neanderthalish guys out there writing poetry, but probably = not good poetry.=20 Maybe also a content analysis of the poems by those discretely = identified as male | female to determine the maleness of the content vs. = the femaleness of the content.=20 There could be a government or institutional grant involved here, I can = smell it. Sincerely, Brent ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 07:25:18 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian Clements Subject: Re: iowa In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Iowa doesn't really tell you much, as the winner has no particular edge. Since '72, three winners of the Democratic caucuses have won the nomination, and two have not. Twice ('72 and '76) the winner was "Uncommitted." In '92, Clinton finished fourth behind Harkin, Uncommitted, and Tsongas. As the pundits like to say, and they're probably right in this case, Iowa tells you more about who to look out for (Edwards) than who is the favorite. Kevin Hehir wrote:could someone down there please explain to me what happened in Iowa? Does this mean that the Democrats are, in effect, going to follow Kerry into the natioal election? I try to follow it on-line through various websites but I'm a bit confused as I thought Dean was strong. Also, did Michael Moore's endorsement of Clark count for anything? backchannel is fine. thanks, kevin -- --------------------------- http://paulmartintime.ca/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 07:49:05 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Terrie Relf Subject: Re: gender imbalance in Pom2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is great news...Perhaps I'll submit again. I have to admit, though, that I'm often mistaken for a man, what with my androgynous name, despite its spelling, of Terrie Leigh. As the poetry editor of writersmonthly.us, I often wonder why more women don't submit. Come on, women! Best, Ter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Landers, Susan" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2004 6:50 AM Subject: gender imbalance in Pom2 > We -- the editors of Pom2, that is -- were really excited by the number of > women who contributed to Pom2 issue 4. Our previous issue had a severely > imbalanced gender ratio (in favor of men) so we took steps to make up for > that in the following issue. (Our editorial board is still imbalanced with 3 > women and 1 man, but none of us seem to mind.) > > I think it is terribly important to solicit work from women, and to follow > up, and to ask women who have contributed to share the magazine with others. > It has been more difficult to get contributions from women, and I don't know > "why" that is. In a sense though, I don't really care too much about the > reasoning behind it -- I just want to do something about it. So, if that > means waiting a longer time between issues so that we receive more work from > women or if we have to send out calls for submissions in places that perhaps > we didn't think to do so at first, fine. I think it's worth the trouble so > that we can more accurately reflect the communities we participate within, > and to better experience and present the range of work that is out there. > That said, we have a lot to learn about finding more voices from people of > color, and have made few strides in that arena. We have been pretty good at > queering up the issues. I think editing the magazine is all about balancing > a wide variety of criteria and sometimes you come out better on some things > than on others. > > That said, I second the remark on turning to Chain for some answers. Chain > is a magazine which in many ways seems to take these issues on directly and > resolve/wrangle with it in fascinating ways. It seems to me to be a great > example of editorial vision manifesting fully in the work within it. > > Susan Landers ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 11:03:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mairead Byrne Subject: Re: gender in balance Comments: To: bbechtel@PRODIGY.NET Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline To be honest, Brent, I can think of few things more refreshing right now = than a good dose of Neanderthal poetry. God I wish I could write it = myself! I'd write it with a burnt cudgel still spiked with blood and hair = on a flaming great rock which drank the rising sun (and a coda on the = back). Mairead www.maireadbyrne.blogspot.com >>> bbechtel@PRODIGY.NET 01/21/04 09:58 AM >>> For example, it's entirely possible that a number of the men contributing = to a journal could be androgynes of a sort - sure there might be some = neanderthalish guys out there writing poetry, but probably not good = poetry.=20 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 10:09:24 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brent Bechtel Subject: Re: gender in balance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Haha, wonderful. I love it. Actually, last year I was out at the lake near a campfire - the kind made with a ring of stones - and I tried making some cave-painting-esque figures of horses and other animals on the rocks with the charcoal from the fire pit. It stayed there amazingly long through the rains off and on that season. I don't know, there was something interesting about engaging in an ancient sort of artform, though. -Brent ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mairead Byrne" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2004 10:03 AM Subject: Re: gender in balance To be honest, Brent, I can think of few things more refreshing right now than a good dose of Neanderthal poetry. God I wish I could write it myself! I'd write it with a burnt cudgel still spiked with blood and hair on a flaming great rock which drank the rising sun (and a coda on the back). Mairead www.maireadbyrne.blogspot.com >>> bbechtel@PRODIGY.NET 01/21/04 09:58 AM >>> For example, it's entirely possible that a number of the men contributing to a journal could be androgynes of a sort - sure there might be some neanderthalish guys out there writing poetry, but probably not good poetry. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 11:50:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carolyn Ostrander Subject: Re: gender in balance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Are you sure? Inside the Cleft in dim light a lone dweller restlessly searches rippling walls seeking to splash a portrait of the hunt. a tangle of legs and arms short sharp spear wounds writhing and weary cries the hunter and the hunted drip down and die bruised colors blending closing walls of the cave convulse quivering brush telling the tale of hunt and the end of hunting. - clo Mairead Byrne wrote: > To be honest, Brent, I can think of few things more refreshing right now than a good dose of Neanderthal poetry. God I wish I could write it myself! I'd write it with a burnt cudgel still spiked with blood and hair on a flaming great rock which drank the rising sun (and a coda on the back). > Mairead > > www.maireadbyrne.blogspot.com > >>> bbechtel@PRODIGY.NET 01/21/04 09:58 AM >>> > For example, it's entirely possible that a number of the men contributing to a journal could be androgynes of a sort - sure there might be some neanderthalish guys out there writing poetry, but probably not good poetry. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 11:52:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: shanna compton Subject: Reminder: Poets at Shortwave (Brooklyn) this week! Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable TOMORROW NIGHT! Help celebrate the publication of She-Devil by Betsy Andrews (Sardines Press) with a reading by Betsy Andrews & Erica Kaufman Thursday, January 22, 2004 7PM @ Soft Skull Shortwave 71 Bond Street Brooklyn, NY (718) 643-1599 http://www.softskull.com/shortwave.php FREE! Betsy Andrews' poems and essays can be found in numerous journals and magazines including Fence, LUNGFULL!, PomPom, Skanky Possum, bilingually in the Yemeni journal Culture and upcoming in X-Connect. She's the recipient o= f an Astrea Award, a NYFA Fellowship and the Philadelphia City Paper Poetry Prize. She lives in Brooklyn. Erica Kaufman lives and works in NYC. Her poems can be found in The Mississippi Review, Bombay Gin, Puppyflowers, among other places. She co-curates Belladonna* "Andrews' fierce commitment to an explosive small scale yields an almost orchestral fullness: tone & idea in continuous poetry. These poems have th= e intricacy of devotional objects and yet they feed exhilleration..." -Camill= e Roy 32 pages, handbound, letterpress cover To purchase and for information contact: rogersnell@mac.com ___________________________ SUNDAY AFTERNOON! Sunday, January 25 2004 2:00pm Poets @ Shortwave: Elliot Figman & Patrick Donnelly read at Shortwave! Soft Skull Shortwave 71 Bond Street Brooklyn, NY 11217 (718) 643-1599 http://www.softskull.com/shortwave.php FREE! Elliot Figman was born and raised in the Bronx and was educated at Oberlin College and the University of Massachusetts. He taught in Massachusetts and Brooklyn before coming to Poets & Writers where he now serves as Executive Director. A recipient of a New York Foundation for the Arts Poetry Fellowship, he has published his work in Pequod, Poetry, TriQuarterly, and other literary journals. He lives in Manhattan with his wife, Ella. He is the author of Big Spring (Four Way Books). Patrick Donnelly=B9s first collection of poems is The Charge (Ausable Press, 2003). He is an Associate Editor at Four Way Books. His writing has appeare= d or is forthcoming in American Poetry Review, Ploughshares, The Yale Review, The Virginia Quarterly Review, and The Massachusetts Review. He lives in Brooklyn, NY. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 11:54:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mairead Byrne Subject: Re: gender in balance Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Well you see it can't be left-justified. It's got to be jagged and = splotchy. It has to be in color. You got to see the blood and hair: like = thick black strands of hairs bulging inside a sheath of crimson. And you got to feel the sun after a long cold night in the cave. I guess = you just have to BE there. That kind of poem! Mairead www.maireadbyrne.blogspot.com >>> clostran@SYR.EDU 01/21/04 11:50 AM >>> Are you sure? Inside the Cleft in dim light a lone dweller restlessly searches rippling walls seeking to splash a portrait of the hunt. a tangle of legs and arms short sharp spear wounds writhing and weary cries the hunter and the hunted drip down and die bruised colors blending closing walls of the cave convulse quivering brush telling the tale of hunt and the end of hunting. - clo Mairead Byrne wrote: > To be honest, Brent, I can think of few things more refreshing right now = than a good dose of Neanderthal poetry. God I wish I could write it = myself! I'd write it with a burnt cudgel still spiked with blood and hair = on a flaming great rock which drank the rising sun (and a coda on the = back). > Mairead > > www.maireadbyrne.blogspot.com > >>> bbechtel@PRODIGY.NET 01/21/04 09:58 AM >>> > For example, it's entirely possible that a number of the men contributin= g to a journal could be androgynes of a sort - sure there might be some = neanderthalish guys out there writing poetry, but probably not good = poetry. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 11:59:49 -0500 Reply-To: az421@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rob McLennan Subject: gender things Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT as an editor/publisher since 1993, ive noticed, too, that its pullin teeth to get girl submissions but boys send when the ink still wet. with that, tho, the girl stuff is usually far more interesting, polished, etcetera. ive never looked at above/ground press gender things, but there are lots of women ive been "courting" for some time, with various successes, to get work. some boys write too much, some girls dont let enough leave the house. (i wont mention names) theres a great 1960s canlit story of bill bissett (back when he did blewointmentpress) breaking into maxine gadds house & stealing a pile of her poems, & turning them into a book. Westerns, i think? in the end, she even didnt mind. rob mclennan -- poet/editor/pub. ... ed. STANZAS mag & side/lines: a new canadian poetics (Insomniac)...pub., above/ground press ...coord.,SPAN-O + ottawa small press fair ...8th coll'n - red earth (Black Moss) ...c/o RR#1 Maxville ON K0C 1T0 www.track0.com/rob_mclennan * http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 12:04:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Rothenberg Subject: Re: gender in balance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i like this idea neanderthal poetry, naked and grisly figuring it out or not every hairy foot of the way maybe mairead you will incite it jagged and splotchy, bulging in technicolor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mairead Byrne" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2004 11:54 AM Subject: Re: gender in balance Well you see it can't be left-justified. It's got to be jagged and splotchy. It has to be in color. You got to see the blood and hair: like thick black strands of hairs bulging inside a sheath of crimson. And you got to feel the sun after a long cold night in the cave. I guess you just have to BE there. That kind of poem! Mairead www.maireadbyrne.blogspot.com >>> clostran@SYR.EDU 01/21/04 11:50 AM >>> Are you sure? Inside the Cleft in dim light a lone dweller restlessly searches rippling walls seeking to splash a portrait of the hunt. a tangle of legs and arms short sharp spear wounds writhing and weary cries the hunter and the hunted drip down and die bruised colors blending closing walls of the cave convulse quivering brush telling the tale of hunt and the end of hunting. - clo Mairead Byrne wrote: > To be honest, Brent, I can think of few things more refreshing right now than a good dose of Neanderthal poetry. God I wish I could write it myself! I'd write it with a burnt cudgel still spiked with blood and hair on a flaming great rock which drank the rising sun (and a coda on the back). > Mairead > > www.maireadbyrne.blogspot.com > >>> bbechtel@PRODIGY.NET 01/21/04 09:58 AM >>> > For example, it's entirely possible that a number of the men contributing to a journal could be androgynes of a sort - sure there might be some neanderthalish guys out there writing poetry, but probably not good poetry. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 12:08:06 -0500 Reply-To: Millie Niss on eathlink Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Resent-From: poetics@buffalo.edu Comments: Originally-From: "Millie Niss on eathlink" From: Poetics List Administration Subject: neanderthal poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I had the misfortune of hearing part of Bush's campaign speech last = night (for non-Americans, this was supposed to be the semi-annual "state = of the union speech"), and it made me think of Mairead's request for = neanderthal poetry: -------------- Neanderthal Poem aka State of the Union Speech, 2004 me bushman in white cave! me strong, me big! me want more more more! four more! me want me clan big go, big go iraq! bad bad iraqi have big big stones! me want no big stones in not me clan! me stone-man, me club-man! not me not have stones, not clubs! they bad! big go iraq rock throw on bad bad iraqi! club hit bad bad iraqi in Baghdad! bad iraqi not bow me clan! not bow not pray in me sacred cave! hide in bad-man cave! me no find long time! me want big go iraqi too! me big go eat bird on bird day with me clan! me do me want, me all do me want! me big! me find bad man iraqi clan big man! me clan clean big bad man bad hair! eat bad man lice get bad man spirit! me want all not me like me! not me do like me do! all do me do! all pray in me cave me spirit! me spirit most big spirit! one spirit three spirit! spirit died help me win! spirit died on tree-flesh me! me pray to tree-flesh! tree-flesh totem! all bad bad iraqi pray to voodoo totem! pray five! five bad! pray bad day! me pray first day bad bad iraqis pray seven day! they shaman bad mans! but bad man help me clan good! good bad man hit brothers sisters me club me stone! kill brothers sisters mothers fathers! they good bad mans! me clan big man four more! me want win me win! me more sacred bones! bad mans me clan lose! they no bones! they no big father! they not many bow bow pray! me bow bow pray more! me good! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 09:11:47 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Code Quiz Winner Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit CO SM (G) After literally dozens of entries, we finally have a winner. Indeed it took the took the linguistic transformative smarts of Martha L Deed to construct the victory lap (so to speak) with the following: CO = Coffee SM = Small (G) = To Go That's how the Coffee Shop codes me in the morning. They even look troubled - a loss of rhythm - if I ask for a cappuccino or something different. Congratulations, Martha. Keep crackin', Stephen Vincent ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 12:20:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Martha L Deed Subject: Re: gender in balance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think you started something-- It immediately triggered the lines below. Problem is, not reflective of your wish for richly textured imagery. Then -- say I -- with all the defensiveness of a "true poet" -- did neanderthals have adjectives? the ability to write abstractions? Do they now? Bones in a cave dark and grave I sleep I rave club in hand I take her like a man big man ape man muscle man rape man republican On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 11:54:38 -0500 Mairead Byrne writes: > Well you see it can't be left-justified. It's got to be jagged and > splotchy. It has to be in color. You got to see the blood and > hair: like thick black strands of hairs bulging inside a sheath of > crimson. > And you got to feel the sun after a long cold night in the cave. I > guess you just have to BE there. That kind of poem! > Mairead ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 12:30:23 -0500 Reply-To: Millie Niss on eathlink Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Millie Niss on eathlink Subject: Neanderthal Poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Neanderthal poem was mine. Millie Niss I had the misfortune of hearing part of Bush's campaign speech last night (for non-Americans, this was supposed to be the semi-annual "state of the union speech"), and it made me think of Mairead's request for neanderthal poetry: -------------- Neanderthal Poem aka State of the Union Speech, 2004 me bushman in white cave! me strong, me big! me want more more more! four more! me want me clan big go, big go iraq! bad bad iraqi have big big stones! me want no big stones in not me clan! me stone-man, me club-man! not me not have stones, not clubs! they bad! big go iraq rock throw on bad bad iraqi! club hit bad bad iraqi in Baghdad! bad iraqi not bow me clan! not bow not pray in me sacred cave! hide in bad-man cave! me no find long time! me want big go iraqi too! me big go eat bird on bird day with me clan! me do me want, me all do me want! me big! me find bad man iraqi clan big man! me clan clean big bad man bad hair! eat bad man lice get bad man spirit! me want all not me like me! not me do like me do! all do me do! all pray in me cave me spirit! me spirit most big spirit! one spirit three spirit! spirit died help me win! spirit died on tree-flesh me! me pray to tree-flesh! tree-flesh totem! all bad bad iraqi pray to voodoo totem! pray five! five bad! pray bad day! me pray first day bad bad iraqis pray seven day! they shaman bad mans! but bad man help me clan good! good bad man hit brothers sisters me club me stone! kill brothers sisters mothers fathers! they good bad mans! me clan big man four more! me want win me win! me more sacred bones! bad mans me clan lose! they no bones! they no big father! they not many bow bow pray! me bow bow pray more! me good! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 12:39:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carolyn Ostrander Subject: Re: gender in balance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The original was drawn on a ragged edged garment of red and off-white, and is accompanied by free-hand renditions of various types of chases - hard to reproduce in text. clo Mairead Byrne wrote: > Well you see it can't be left-justified. It's got to be jagged and splotchy. It has to be in color. You got to see the blood and hair: like thick black strands of hairs bulging inside a sheath of crimson. > And you got to feel the sun after a long cold night in the cave. I guess you just have to BE there. That kind of poem! > Mairead > > www.maireadbyrne.blogspot.com > >>> clostran@SYR.EDU 01/21/04 11:50 AM >>> > Are you sure? > > Inside the Cleft > > in dim light a lone dweller > restlessly searches rippling walls > seeking to splash a portrait of the hunt. > > a tangle of legs and arms > short sharp spear > wounds writhing and weary cries > > the hunter and the hunted > drip down and die > bruised colors blending > > closing walls of the cave convulse > quivering brush telling the tale > of hunt and the end of hunting. > > - clo > > Mairead Byrne wrote: > > > To be honest, Brent, I can think of few things more refreshing right now than a good dose of Neanderthal poetry. God I wish I could write it myself! I'd write it with a burnt cudgel still spiked with blood and hair on a flaming great rock which drank the rising sun (and a coda on the back). > > Mairead > > > > www.maireadbyrne.blogspot.com > > >>> bbechtel@PRODIGY.NET 01/21/04 09:58 AM >>> > > For example, it's entirely possible that a number of the men contributing to a journal could be androgynes of a sort - sure there might be some neanderthalish guys out there writing poetry, but probably not good poetry. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 12:41:57 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beckett Subject: Vanishing Points of Resemblance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Follow the train wreck as it occurs...visit my new blog at http.//vanishingpoints.blogspot.com Cheers, Tom Beckett ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 13:40:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jane Sprague Subject: West End Reading Series :: 2004 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable WEST END READING SERIES: January 24, 2004=20 Poets Jay Leeming, Jenny Mikulski & August Smith Jay Leeming is a native Ithacan who has recently returned after fifteen = years in such places as Minnesota, Vermont, and New York City. He = graduated with an MFA degree from New School University in 2001. His = poems have appeared in a variety of magazines including The Bitter = Oleander, The Thousands, The Northwest Review, Euphony, and Heliotrope, = and he was recently featured in the "Emerging Writers" issue of = Ploughshares. =20 Jenny Mikulski helped establish the non-profit organization Ithaca City = of Asylum which brought exiled Chinese poet Yi Ping to Ithaca. Published = in LunaSea Bindery's recent book, Hysteria, Mikulski was awarded a 2003 = Community Arts Partnership grant in poetry. August Smith has poems in = The Poet's Page, Wide Open, and The Great North American Poetry = Anthology. August Smith is a temporary lecturer at Cornell University, where he = recently completed his MFA in Creative Writing specializing in poetry. = He currently writes freelance for the Ithaca Times. Recent publications = include an essay in Loyola's Reader's Response and poems in The Poet's = Page, Wide Open, and The Great North American Poetry Anthology. =20 January 24, 2004::7:00 p.m.::Gimme! Coffee::506 W State St::Ithaca = NY::FREE:: www.slyfox.org :: www.palmpress.org This program is made possible in part by funds from the New York State = Council on the Arts. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 13:48:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jane Sprague Subject: Re: West End Reading Series :: 2004 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All, My apologies for unsightly formatting and redundancies in my previous post & may I take this opportunity to remind you about this: Please Forward-- SMALL PRESS CULTURE WORKERS: A Conference on Small Presses Small Press Culture Workers is a forum for poets, publishers, and editors of small, independent presses and journals as well as publishers of artists' books to investigate the sub-economic force of small press publishing in the United States. Cultural work made possible by artists and editors committed to building and sustaining community while implementing innovative editorial aesthetics and publishing strategies will be examined through a variety of talks, panel presentations and events. February 7, 2004. Ithaca, NY Presenters: Charles Alexander, Chax Press, Tucson, AZ Allison Cobb, POM2, New York, NY Jennifer Coleman, POM2, New York, NY Michael Cross, Syllogism, Buffalo, NY Rory Golden, Executive Director, Center for Book Arts, New York, NY Joel Kuszai, Factory School, Ithaca, NY Brendan Lorber, Lungfull!, New York, NY Jennifer Savran, LunaSea Bindery and Press, Ithaca, NY Jonathan Skinner, Ecopoetics, Buffalo, NY Juliana Spahr, Chain, Subpress, Oakland, CA Mark Weiss, Junction Press, San Diego, CA The conference includes panel presentations, a small press book fair, an exhibit: "Pages," curated by Buzz Spector at the Ink Shop/Olive Branch Press and a group reading by the poet/publishers in attendance as part of the West End Reading Series February event. Location: Mural Lounge, The Clinton House, 116 N. Cayuga Street, Ithaca, NY. Contact Jane Sprague for further information regarding registration, lodging and conference details at janesprague@clarityconnect.com or www.palmpress.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 14:11:07 -0500 Reply-To: olsonjk@delhi.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kirby Olson Organization: SUNY Delhi Subject: Re: patriarchy/matriarchy distinction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I've been meaning to point out that in myth theory patriarchy doesn't mean that men rule or matriarchy that women rule. I've seen this mistake over and over, and I think it is important to clarify it so that you can start to use the terms properly. The terms are begun by JJ Bachofen, a Swiss amateur anthropologist and close friend of Nietzsche. He wrote a book called Mutterrecht -- Mother Right -- about a supposed matirarchal society that he had intuited from various readings in Greek mythology. He argued that there was originally such a society that was dominated by maternal symbols. He never said that women dominated the society. In fact he argued that those societies were dominated by a single male tyrant who used all the women as his personal harem, and that women in those societies had no rights whatsoever except to be his whores. There were new age matriarchal feminists in the 1970s who invented the idea of a perfect matriarchal society, but all these women have been completely torn to shreds in academic circles. Even in women's studies departments the idea of a primitive perfect matriarchy has been shredded. You could read Cynthia Eller's book The Myth of Matriarchy. She gives a good overview of what has taken place, and also provides a good bibliography for further study. She teaches at a university in New York City, or close by (I forget which). In myth study, a patriarchal society is dominated by the following: Laws Rationality Judgement Hierarchy Conditional Love So, for instance, Queen Elizabeth I of England was a perfect patriarch as she certainly exercised these qualities. One could see Queen Victoria or Margaret Thatcher as also being patriarchal rulers. In a matriarchy, the following characteristics are common: Passive acceptance of nature Natural feelings as constituting what is right Desire Unity So, for instance, Charlie Manson's The Family is an example of a matriarchal family. In a matriarchy, the strongest hold sway because there is no right above nature. The strongest rule, and desire is the only law. And so if Charlie wants to rape you or murder you, then he rapes or murders you. That's it. There is no higher court than this. Desire of the strongest rules. This has been made perfectly clear for a long time in mythological study. A patriarchal society is one that has male symbols -- the sun, or stars, as their symbology. The cross could also be considered patriarchal in that it points up. A matriarchal society on the other hand is dominated by female (vaginal) images such as circles, or cave entrances. This represents the earth. It says that there is nothing above the earth. Many many feminists have understood that "patriarchy" doesn't mean that men are in charge. In fact where there are principles there is a possibility of women being in charge. And where there are no principles then usually the strongest male is in charge. But that is the matriarchal society, not the patriarchal. I know this is somewhat difficult and perhaps even paradoxical, but if you read even a simple book for beginners such as The Teach Yourself book Greek Myths by Steve Eddy and Claire Hamilton, this error in nomenclature will hopefully right itself, and a more functional understanding of mythology and society will result. A more advanced reader could consult Bachofen's amazingly brilliant text Mother Right (it's available in paperback from Princeton U. Press). I think this confusion arose in the 70s when new age women collapsed the nomenclature without reading the originals, and they assumed therefore that a society run by witches would somehow be preferable to our own. You could read Starhawk's The Spiral Dance if you want to read a text by an almost complete know-nothing without any academic credibility and see how 70s feminists just ran amok mentally and made a mess of myth study. Women scholars within academia such as Cynthia Eller have painstakingly tried to repair this mess, but it hasn't succeeded yet in reaching everybody. To summarize: Patriarchy is about principles (men or women can rule if they do so on agreed principles of law and order) Matriarchy is about desire (the strongest rule, and usually this is men) Also, there was never any original society in which women were dominant and the society was peaceful. This has never been discovered. It was a happy story told by seventies feminists. Nobody in any university takes that seriously any longer. There is no proof of it. So far as we know, early societies that used matriarchal symbols were all dominated by a single tyrant, who was almost always male. In a patriarchy the principles rule, the laws rule, and those who take the role of leader are beholden (or should be beholden) to those rules, and not to their own desires. -- Kirby Olson ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 14:18:08 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: RaeA100900@AOL.COM Subject: Up to Speed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I want to announce that my new book, Up to Speed, is out from Wesleyan. I've had copies for several weeks but waited until I heard the book had actually arrived in at least one store. I've just had word that it's available at Open Books in Seattle. That means it may be in some other stores too. One can hope! Regards, Rae Armantrout PS. I'd be grateful to hear about any other places where it shows up so, if you see it,... It's got a great photo by Eleanor Antin on the cover ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 14:29:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Re: Up to Speed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Rae: Your book showed up in my living room -- does that count? On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 14:18:08, RaeA100900@AOL.COM wrote: > I want to announce that my new book, Up to Speed, is out from Wesleyan. I've > had copies for several weeks but waited until I heard the book had actually > arrived in at least one store. I've just had word that it's available at Open > Books in Seattle. That means it may be in some other stores too. One can hope! > > Regards, > > Rae Armantrout > > PS. I'd be grateful to hear about any other places where it shows up so, if > you see it,... > It's got a great photo by Eleanor Antin on the cover > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Breaking in bright Orthography . . ." --Emily Dickinson Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 12:10:35 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Corbett Subject: Re: patriarchy/matriarchy distinction In-Reply-To: <400ECECB.2C3E8EE9@delhi.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Kirby, This is patently racialist thinking. In fact, the image that Bachofen has in mind is no doubt the European image of Turkish society--which had plenty of laws. And...if we do indeed live in a "patriarchical" society at the moment, it is clear that the rules easily subject to revision or subversion (for instance, the rule that says that the House of Representative must give consent to any act of war). In any case, this binary is something that Nietzche would have called "metaphysical": a deft and kind phrase for poppycock (itself a euphemism). Robert -- Robert Corbett, Ph.C. "Given the distance of communication, Coordinator of New Programs I hope the words aren't idling on the B40D Gerberding map of my fingertips, but igniting the Phone: (206) 616-0657 wild acres within the probabilities of Fax: (206) 685-3218 spelling" - Rosmarie Waldrop UW Box: 351237 On Wed, 21 Jan 2004, Kirby Olson wrote: > I've been meaning to point out that in myth theory patriarchy doesn't mean > that men rule or matriarchy that women rule. > > I've seen this mistake over and over, and I think it is important to clarify > it so that you can start to use the terms properly. > > The terms are begun by JJ Bachofen, a Swiss amateur anthropologist and close > friend of Nietzsche. He wrote a book called Mutterrecht -- Mother Right -- > about a supposed matirarchal society that he had intuited from various > readings in Greek mythology. He argued that there was originally such a > society that was dominated by maternal symbols. He never said that women > dominated the society. In fact he argued that those societies were dominated > by a single male tyrant who used all the women as his personal harem, and > that women in those societies had no rights whatsoever except to be his > whores. > > There were new age matriarchal feminists in the 1970s who invented the idea > of a perfect matriarchal society, but all these women have been completely > torn to shreds in academic circles. Even in women's studies departments the > idea of a primitive perfect matriarchy has been shredded. You could read > Cynthia Eller's book The Myth of Matriarchy. She gives a good overview of > what has taken place, and also provides a good bibliography for further > study. She teaches at a university in New York City, or close by (I forget > which). > > In myth study, a patriarchal society is dominated by the following: > > Laws > Rationality > Judgement > Hierarchy > Conditional Love > > So, for instance, Queen Elizabeth I of England was a perfect patriarch as she > certainly exercised these qualities. One could see Queen Victoria or > Margaret Thatcher as also being patriarchal rulers. > > > In a matriarchy, the following characteristics are common: > > Passive acceptance of nature > Natural feelings as constituting what is right > Desire > Unity > > So, for instance, Charlie Manson's The Family is an example of a matriarchal > family. In a matriarchy, the strongest hold sway because there is no right > above nature. The strongest rule, and desire is the only law. And so if > Charlie wants to rape you or murder you, then he rapes or murders you. > That's it. There is no higher court than this. Desire of the strongest > rules. > > This has been made perfectly clear for a long time in mythological study. A > patriarchal society is one that has male symbols -- the sun, or stars, as > their symbology. The cross could also be considered patriarchal in that it > points up. A matriarchal society on the other hand is dominated by female > (vaginal) images such as circles, or cave entrances. This represents the > earth. It says that there is nothing above the earth. > > Many many feminists have understood that "patriarchy" doesn't mean that men > are in charge. In fact where there are principles there is a possibility of > women being in charge. And where there are no principles then usually the > strongest male is in charge. But that is the matriarchal society, not the > patriarchal. > > I know this is somewhat difficult and perhaps even paradoxical, but if you > read even a simple book for beginners such as The Teach Yourself book Greek > Myths by Steve Eddy and Claire Hamilton, this error in nomenclature will > hopefully right itself, and a more functional understanding of mythology and > society will result. A more advanced reader could consult Bachofen's > amazingly brilliant text Mother Right (it's available in paperback from > Princeton U. Press). > > I think this confusion arose in the 70s when new age women collapsed the > nomenclature without reading the originals, and they assumed therefore that a > society run by witches would somehow be preferable to our own. You could > read Starhawk's The Spiral Dance if you want to read a text by an almost > complete know-nothing without any academic credibility and see how 70s > feminists just ran amok mentally and made a mess of myth study. Women > scholars within academia such as Cynthia Eller have painstakingly tried to > repair this mess, but it hasn't succeeded yet in reaching everybody. > > To summarize: > > Patriarchy is about principles (men or women can rule if they do so on agreed > principles of law and order) > > Matriarchy is about desire (the strongest rule, and usually this is men) > > Also, there was never any original society in which women were dominant and > the society was peaceful. This has never been discovered. It was a happy > story told by seventies feminists. Nobody in any university takes that > seriously any longer. There is no proof of it. So far as we know, early > societies that used matriarchal symbols were all dominated by a single > tyrant, who was almost always male. In a patriarchy the principles rule, the > laws rule, and those who take the role of leader are beholden (or should be > beholden) to those rules, and not to their own desires. > > -- Kirby Olson > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 15:36:57 -0500 Reply-To: olsonjk@delhi.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kirby Olson Organization: SUNY Delhi Subject: Re: patriarchy/matriarchy distinction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Robert, have you read Bachofen? Or is this a knee-jerk response? -- Kirby Robert Corbett wrote: > Kirby, > > This is patently racialist thinking. In fact, the image that Bachofen has > in mind is no doubt the European image of Turkish society--which had > plenty of laws. And...if we do indeed live in a "patriarchical" society > at the moment, it is clear that the rules easily subject to revision or > subversion (for instance, the rule that says that the House of > Representative must give consent to any act of war). In any case, this > binary is something that Nietzche would have called "metaphysical": a deft > and kind phrase for poppycock (itself a euphemism). > > Robert > > -- > Robert Corbett, Ph.C. "Given the distance of communication, > Coordinator of New Programs I hope the words aren't idling on the > B40D Gerberding map of my fingertips, but igniting the > Phone: (206) 616-0657 wild acres within the probabilities of > Fax: (206) 685-3218 spelling" - Rosmarie Waldrop > UW Box: 351237 > > On Wed, 21 Jan 2004, Kirby Olson wrote: > > > I've been meaning to point out that in myth theory patriarchy doesn't mean > > that men rule or matriarchy that women rule. > > > > I've seen this mistake over and over, and I think it is important to clarify > > it so that you can start to use the terms properly. > > > > The terms are begun by JJ Bachofen, a Swiss amateur anthropologist and close > > friend of Nietzsche. He wrote a book called Mutterrecht -- Mother Right -- > > about a supposed matirarchal society that he had intuited from various > > readings in Greek mythology. He argued that there was originally such a > > society that was dominated by maternal symbols. He never said that women > > dominated the society. In fact he argued that those societies were dominated > > by a single male tyrant who used all the women as his personal harem, and > > that women in those societies had no rights whatsoever except to be his > > whores. > > > > There were new age matriarchal feminists in the 1970s who invented the idea > > of a perfect matriarchal society, but all these women have been completely > > torn to shreds in academic circles. Even in women's studies departments the > > idea of a primitive perfect matriarchy has been shredded. You could read > > Cynthia Eller's book The Myth of Matriarchy. She gives a good overview of > > what has taken place, and also provides a good bibliography for further > > study. She teaches at a university in New York City, or close by (I forget > > which). > > > > In myth study, a patriarchal society is dominated by the following: > > > > Laws > > Rationality > > Judgement > > Hierarchy > > Conditional Love > > > > So, for instance, Queen Elizabeth I of England was a perfect patriarch as she > > certainly exercised these qualities. One could see Queen Victoria or > > Margaret Thatcher as also being patriarchal rulers. > > > > > > In a matriarchy, the following characteristics are common: > > > > Passive acceptance of nature > > Natural feelings as constituting what is right > > Desire > > Unity > > > > So, for instance, Charlie Manson's The Family is an example of a matriarchal > > family. In a matriarchy, the strongest hold sway because there is no right > > above nature. The strongest rule, and desire is the only law. And so if > > Charlie wants to rape you or murder you, then he rapes or murders you. > > That's it. There is no higher court than this. Desire of the strongest > > rules. > > > > This has been made perfectly clear for a long time in mythological study. A > > patriarchal society is one that has male symbols -- the sun, or stars, as > > their symbology. The cross could also be considered patriarchal in that it > > points up. A matriarchal society on the other hand is dominated by female > > (vaginal) images such as circles, or cave entrances. This represents the > > earth. It says that there is nothing above the earth. > > > > Many many feminists have understood that "patriarchy" doesn't mean that men > > are in charge. In fact where there are principles there is a possibility of > > women being in charge. And where there are no principles then usually the > > strongest male is in charge. But that is the matriarchal society, not the > > patriarchal. > > > > I know this is somewhat difficult and perhaps even paradoxical, but if you > > read even a simple book for beginners such as The Teach Yourself book Greek > > Myths by Steve Eddy and Claire Hamilton, this error in nomenclature will > > hopefully right itself, and a more functional understanding of mythology and > > society will result. A more advanced reader could consult Bachofen's > > amazingly brilliant text Mother Right (it's available in paperback from > > Princeton U. Press). > > > > I think this confusion arose in the 70s when new age women collapsed the > > nomenclature without reading the originals, and they assumed therefore that a > > society run by witches would somehow be preferable to our own. You could > > read Starhawk's The Spiral Dance if you want to read a text by an almost > > complete know-nothing without any academic credibility and see how 70s > > feminists just ran amok mentally and made a mess of myth study. Women > > scholars within academia such as Cynthia Eller have painstakingly tried to > > repair this mess, but it hasn't succeeded yet in reaching everybody. > > > > To summarize: > > > > Patriarchy is about principles (men or women can rule if they do so on agreed > > principles of law and order) > > > > Matriarchy is about desire (the strongest rule, and usually this is men) > > > > Also, there was never any original society in which women were dominant and > > the society was peaceful. This has never been discovered. It was a happy > > story told by seventies feminists. Nobody in any university takes that > > seriously any longer. There is no proof of it. So far as we know, early > > societies that used matriarchal symbols were all dominated by a single > > tyrant, who was almost always male. In a patriarchy the principles rule, the > > laws rule, and those who take the role of leader are beholden (or should be > > beholden) to those rules, and not to their own desires. > > > > -- Kirby Olson > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 13:21:51 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: elen gebreab Subject: Zora Neale Hurston Plays Online MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >>INFO: zora neale hurston plays online > ============================== > > The Library of Congress is pleased to announce the > online release of > The Zora Neale Hurston Plays at the Library of > Congress, available on > the American Memory Web site at: http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/znhhtml > > The Zora Neale Hurston Plays collection at the > Library of Congress > present a selection of ten plays written by Hurston, > author, > anthropologist, and folklorist. Deposited in the > United States Copyright > Office between 1925 and 1944, most of the plays > remained unpublished and > unproduced until they were rediscovered in the > Copyright Deposit Drama > Collection in 1997. The plays reflect Hurston's life experience, > travels, and research, especially her study of > folklore in the > African-American South. Totaling seven hundred > images, the scripts are > housed in the Library's Manuscript, Music, and Rare > Books and Special > Collections Divisions. > > Zora Neale Hurston (1891-1960), the author of the > ten plays (with > co-authors Langston Hughes on Mule-Bone and Dorothy > Waring on Polk > County), deposited these scripts with the United > States Copyright Office > between 1925 and 1944. Included in the scanned > materials are four very > short plays (sketches or skits) and six full-length > plays. Most are > light-hearted if not outright comedies, and several > include song lyrics > without the associated music. Hurston knew the > songs and the subjects > of these plays from her own upbringing and her > professional folklore > research in the African-American South. She > identified as her hometown > Eatonville, Florida, the first African-American > incorporated township. > During the 1920s, 1930s, and 1940s, Hurston traveled > the American South > collecting and recording the sounds and songs of her > people, while her > research in Haiti is reflected in the voodoo scenes > and beliefs woven > into several of the plays. > > With the exception of Mule-Bone, the plays presented > here were all > unpublished when they were rediscovered in the > Library of Congress in > 1997. At that time, only Polk County was at all > familiar to scholars on > the basis of copies in other repositories. Little > was known about > Hurston's theatrical career until 1998, when > scholarly publications > began to reflect the drama discoveries announced by > the Library of > Congress. The discovery of the scripts, added to > those Hurston plays > already known, firmly establishes their author, an African-American > woman, as a significant dramatist of the twentieth > century. > > American Memory is a gateway to rich primary source > materials relating > to the history and culture of the United States. > The site offers more > than 8 million digital items from more than 120 > historical collections. > > Please submit any questions you may have via the > American Memory web > form at: > http://www.loc.gov/rr/askalib/ask-memory2.html > > Laura Gottesman > >> ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 14:54:14 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: patriarchy/matriarchy distinction Comments: To: olsonjk@delhi.edu In-Reply-To: <400ECECB.2C3E8EE9@delhi.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed OED, 1971 edition: Patriarchy. 2. A patriarchal system of society or government; government by the father or the eldest male of the family; a family, tribe or community so organized. [first citation 1632] Matriarchy. That form of social organization in which the mother, and not the father, is the head of the family, and in which descent and relationship are reackoned through mothers and not through fathers. [first citation 1885; first citation of Matriarch 1606] So, Kirby, your boy Bachofen seems to have missed the boat by a few centuries. There have been numerous matriarchal societies, tho none that seem to have been any more golden age than patriarchal societies. A modern matriarchal society is the Hopi: among traditional Hopis men own only their tools and their clothing. A man knows he's no longer married if when he comes home he finds these things outside the door. The application of moral or emotional qualities to the one or the other is entirely metaphorical--there's no evidence to support it. The terms themselves are problematic: is traditional Eastern European Jewish society patriarchal or matriarchal? It's matrilineal, usually matrilocal, and relations with the outside world, like business, are largely the province of women. The day-to-day operation of the family is also largely a female affair. On the other hand, men are nominally in control, and certainly in control in shul and yeshiva. The same is true of many of even the most macho mediterranean cultures. A Sicilian-American family one of my colleagues worked with as therapist is a case in point. The father was an immigrant and a barber, the mother first generation US and the founder and head of a large and very successful real estate agency. The session my colleague taped for consultation (with permission, natch, went something like this: Therapist: So who's the boss in the family. Mother and Daughter, almost in unison: Oh, he is. Father: straightens up, beaming. Therapist: Well, let's see. Who decides where you [daughter] goes to school? Who decided which house to buy? [etc. etc.] Mother and Daughter (to each question): I (mom) do. Therapist: So if Dad's the boss what does he decide? Mother (deadly serious): He decides who we vote for. Even in many Arab societies where the worst abuses of what's called patriarchy occur most small-scale buying and selling (which at the local level is most business) is conducted between women in the purdah tent. Which is not to deny that the injustices to be overcome are monstrous and widespread, tho they vary in frequency and intensity, just that the terminology is problematic. Mark At 02:11 PM 1/21/2004 -0500, Kirby Olson wrote: >I've been meaning to point out that in myth theory patriarchy doesn't mean >that men rule or matriarchy that women rule. > >I've seen this mistake over and over, and I think it is important to clarify >it so that you can start to use the terms properly. > >The terms are begun by JJ Bachofen, a Swiss amateur anthropologist and close >friend of Nietzsche. He wrote a book called Mutterrecht -- Mother Right -- >about a supposed matirarchal society that he had intuited from various >readings in Greek mythology. He argued that there was originally such a >society that was dominated by maternal symbols. He never said that women >dominated the society. In fact he argued that those societies were dominated >by a single male tyrant who used all the women as his personal harem, and >that women in those societies had no rights whatsoever except to be his >whores. > >There were new age matriarchal feminists in the 1970s who invented the idea >of a perfect matriarchal society, but all these women have been completely >torn to shreds in academic circles. Even in women's studies departments the >idea of a primitive perfect matriarchy has been shredded. You could read >Cynthia Eller's book The Myth of Matriarchy. She gives a good overview of >what has taken place, and also provides a good bibliography for further >study. She teaches at a university in New York City, or close by (I forget >which). > >In myth study, a patriarchal society is dominated by the following: > >Laws >Rationality >Judgement >Hierarchy >Conditional Love > >So, for instance, Queen Elizabeth I of England was a perfect patriarch as she >certainly exercised these qualities. One could see Queen Victoria or >Margaret Thatcher as also being patriarchal rulers. > > >In a matriarchy, the following characteristics are common: > >Passive acceptance of nature >Natural feelings as constituting what is right >Desire >Unity > >So, for instance, Charlie Manson's The Family is an example of a matriarchal >family. In a matriarchy, the strongest hold sway because there is no right >above nature. The strongest rule, and desire is the only law. And so if >Charlie wants to rape you or murder you, then he rapes or murders you. >That's it. There is no higher court than this. Desire of the strongest >rules. > >This has been made perfectly clear for a long time in mythological study. A >patriarchal society is one that has male symbols -- the sun, or stars, as >their symbology. The cross could also be considered patriarchal in that it >points up. A matriarchal society on the other hand is dominated by female >(vaginal) images such as circles, or cave entrances. This represents the >earth. It says that there is nothing above the earth. > >Many many feminists have understood that "patriarchy" doesn't mean that men >are in charge. In fact where there are principles there is a possibility of >women being in charge. And where there are no principles then usually the >strongest male is in charge. But that is the matriarchal society, not the >patriarchal. > >I know this is somewhat difficult and perhaps even paradoxical, but if you >read even a simple book for beginners such as The Teach Yourself book Greek >Myths by Steve Eddy and Claire Hamilton, this error in nomenclature will >hopefully right itself, and a more functional understanding of mythology and >society will result. A more advanced reader could consult Bachofen's >amazingly brilliant text Mother Right (it's available in paperback from >Princeton U. Press). > >I think this confusion arose in the 70s when new age women collapsed the >nomenclature without reading the originals, and they assumed therefore that a >society run by witches would somehow be preferable to our own. You could >read Starhawk's The Spiral Dance if you want to read a text by an almost >complete know-nothing without any academic credibility and see how 70s >feminists just ran amok mentally and made a mess of myth study. Women >scholars within academia such as Cynthia Eller have painstakingly tried to >repair this mess, but it hasn't succeeded yet in reaching everybody. > >To summarize: > >Patriarchy is about principles (men or women can rule if they do so on agreed >principles of law and order) > >Matriarchy is about desire (the strongest rule, and usually this is men) > >Also, there was never any original society in which women were dominant and >the society was peaceful. This has never been discovered. It was a happy >story told by seventies feminists. Nobody in any university takes that >seriously any longer. There is no proof of it. So far as we know, early >societies that used matriarchal symbols were all dominated by a single >tyrant, who was almost always male. In a patriarchy the principles rule, the >laws rule, and those who take the role of leader are beholden (or should be >beholden) to those rules, and not to their own desires. > >-- Kirby Olson ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 23:58:46 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: query Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi, I'm presuming that, although no such intention is attributable, my poem 'a partial chrestomathy of naming spam' has been deemed to flout the list guidelines. This could be either because of its length or its content. I just wanted to assure you that the same post has passed with nothing but benign commentaries on two similar lists for poetry. in fact it has generated good discussion on the recent exponential increase in word sald style spam, both for threads and names. One or two folks had asked me why i hadn't sent it to Poetics and so i did, but now maybe i realise why i hadn't done so initially. In fact a lot of poets part names are used in the piece, as are other cultural workers and so forth. Nothing stranger than the current computer-generated hybridisation of naming was intended. anyway love and love cris ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 00:01:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: small homage in the tropics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII http://www.asondheim.org/empire.jpg small homage in the tropics connect __ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 00:01:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: shining upwards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII shining upwards the face in which epiphany is produced and which appeals to me, mirage of breath, perhaps I am doing this for you, an epiphany. there is always epiphany, talk, sleep, breath, 'a state of _phantasmic exaltation_ forms the typical introduction of the organism from space, all breath and exaltation.' the midst of the grasping, the organisms, saying, ending in ellipsis ... and the exaltation of violence which makes a man, a man. among those macroscopic moments of exaltation are emotions. but it is this state, that of emotion and exaltation and perfect torture and annihilation, the exaltation of love, ecriture feminin, that one ... but the interior may be lifted into exaltation, this state, i have said to you, this state of the organism, this epiphany when worlds ... a temporal detumescence or slackening - an order associated, if you will, with an end, the resulting detumescence partaking of defuge, exhaustive ennui, out of exhaustion, out of irritation murmur, grappling with itself, an 'awkward' tumescence ... in yourself is a mummy-metaphor, death and detumescence already foregone, able, unnerved, a state of _frisson,_ semi-tumescence, i want great portents ... to establish the bulwark ... - the first word, the slight tumescence of the cloth, of burrowing. swollen tumescences, convexities; meniscus lenses, sinusoidal meanderings: relationships of to the dry decathecting in the bushido zone, and ennui, out of exhaustion and detumescence, out of irritation - and ennui, out of exhaustion and detumescence, out of irritation murmur ... and arousal, tumescence, distension, stretched or opened skin: upwelling and arousal, tumescence, distension, stretched or opened skin: upwelling detumescence of etiquette in the light of the body and detumescence of the light and exaltation and transcendence and exaltation of the light audible and audible _ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 04:55:10 -0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "david.bircumshaw" Subject: Re: gender in balance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Interesting this all. One thing, as far as I know, there are no Neanderthal cave-paintings, evidence seems to suggest that they had a culture that was sufficient to their environment but did not show development, Neanderthal tools just stayed the same, generation after generation, like a monotonous song. Literary depictions of Neanderthals hinge about the H.G.Wells story 'The Grisly Folk', where you have the picture of the bloody-cudgelled caveman, and William Golding's 'The Inheritors', where you have its antiphon, the sensitive (telepathic!) communal creatures hunted down by the 'Cro-Magnons', our ancestors. I'd imagine that meeting a Neanderthal would be, well, very boring, boring because being a product of a stereotyped life results in exactly that. It is interesting again to wander on the links involved: monotonous repetitive labour results in mental stultification but also +identification+ with the power structures that endorse such conditions, as in the case of many of our politicians, produces the same result. Same speech. Dead words. Those that have power to move, but are themselves unmov'd etc. It reminded me too of an account I heard of peasant labourers the other day, that like the grim mediaeval notions of Christ, they never laughed. I am reminded too of the monotony of Sixties West Indian music, before Bob Marley, with its same-same rhythms and base root rooting at the seedtalk of humanity. Sex talk, yeah, and nothing more. And power, as the detestable Kissinger said, is the ultimate aphrodisiac. NOT intelligence. And power, which is the basis of social relations, seems to be what the gender-talk thread has really been about, the distribution of power among the social elite who are allowed to be seen as poets (there was that lovely post, I can't remember who by, about the existence of poetry outside the academic circuits, beautiful that). So, what do we have: romanticised Neanderthals, Neanderthal and unromantic politicians, issues about recognition in a world of tenures and appointments that is far removed from the realities of life below, and the unexamined questions of speech - who can speak, who is allowed to, who is enabled by their environments to do so? Etc etc. End of blah! Best Dave David Bircumshaw Spectare's Web, A Chide's Alphabet & Painting Without Numbers http://www.chidesalphabet.org.uk ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 00:21:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: gender in balance In-Reply-To: <00b301c3e0a3$eb3de8e0$8bf4a8c0@netserver> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII There's something that bothers me about this whole discussion, a kind of specism which for me is a bit suspect. Very little is known about Nean- derthal culture; what is known is indicative of high intelligence. To make any sort of judgement about a group of prehistoric hominids seems to me to shift issues about race (and for that matter about 'weeds') onto a group which - like Lyotard's Jews in the Holocaust, exist within the condition of the differend. Alan http://www.asondheim.org/ http://www.asondheim.org/portal/.nikuko http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt Trace projects http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm finger sondheim@panix.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 23:23:35 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brent Bechtel Subject: Another chapbook. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wrote a lot of poems a number of years ago, and the style is quite different from the way I write at the moment, I think - but I have several friends who prefer the other writings (friends who are not scholars), so I decided to go ahead and make another chapbook out of some of those poems, and put it online in PDF format, just for fun, like. http://www.brentbechtel.com/series/burial_rites.pdf The title of the book is, "Burial Rites of Love and Death" It's around 40 poems or so. As an experiment in seeing what cafepress.com's print quality is like, I set up a shop here to buy a copy: http://www.cafeshops.com/bbechtel Of course, it's still free, above. I guess if you liked it a lot you could buy a printed copy, though. It also has a pretty neat cover design by ... me. Two books in a week. August Highland's personas have nothing on me. Haha. [maniacal laughter] -Brent ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 05:20:29 -0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "david.bircumshaw" Subject: Re: gender in balance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit True, Alan, there is very little known about Neanderthals. What little is known seems to suggest both a) high cranial capacity indicating potentially high intelligence; b) a stereotyped tool-culture that shows little or no development. The picture that comes across to me is a somewhat tragic one - that of potentially highly intelligent beings whose lives were so restricted by the harshness of their physical environment and the shortness of their appallingly physically demanding lives that they were never able to become what they could have been. Just a picture that, it's a sad one. Best Dave David Bircumshaw Spectare's Web, A Chide's Alphabet & Painting Without Numbers http://www.chidesalphabet.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Sondheim" To: Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2004 5:21 AM Subject: Re: gender in balance There's something that bothers me about this whole discussion, a kind of specism which for me is a bit suspect. Very little is known about Nean- derthal culture; what is known is indicative of high intelligence. To make any sort of judgement about a group of prehistoric hominids seems to me to shift issues about race (and for that matter about 'weeds') onto a group which - like Lyotard's Jews in the Holocaust, exist within the condition of the differend. Alan http://www.asondheim.org/ http://www.asondheim.org/portal/.nikuko http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt Trace projects http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm finger sondheim@panix.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 00:12:56 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brent Bechtel Subject: Re: gender in balance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just for the record, in my original post, I used "Neanderthalish" in the way that it's used in popular American speech--a woman might say of a particularly unrefined male, "Gah, what a /Neanderthal/." So, that as opposed to the refined, fashion-conscious, eyebrow-waxing man of today. This places Neanderthals as having existed in great quantity as recently as thirty years ago, and many of them had good jobs, large salaries, wrote popular books and had triumphant funerals. -Brent ----- Original Message ----- From: "david.bircumshaw" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2004 11:20 PM Subject: Re: gender in balance > True, Alan, there is very little known about Neanderthals. What little is > known seems to suggest both a) high cranial capacity indicating potentially > high intelligence; b) a stereotyped tool-culture that shows little or no > development. The picture that comes across to me is a somewhat tragic one - > that of potentially highly intelligent beings whose lives were so restricted > by the harshness of their physical environment and the shortness of their > appallingly physically demanding lives that they were never able to become > what they could have been. Just a picture that, it's a sad one. > > Best > > Dave > > > David Bircumshaw > > Spectare's Web, A Chide's Alphabet > & Painting Without Numbers > > http://www.chidesalphabet.org.uk > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Alan Sondheim" > To: > Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2004 5:21 AM > Subject: Re: gender in balance > > > There's something that bothers me about this whole discussion, a kind of > specism which for me is a bit suspect. Very little is known about Nean- > derthal culture; what is known is indicative of high intelligence. To make > any sort of judgement about a group of prehistoric hominids seems to me to > shift issues about race (and for that matter about 'weeds') onto a group > which - like Lyotard's Jews in the Holocaust, exist within the condition > of the differend. > > Alan > > http://www.asondheim.org/ http://www.asondheim.org/portal/.nikuko > http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt > Trace projects http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm > finger sondheim@panix.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 22:49:49 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: alexander saliby Subject: Iowa & other Issues MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Q. What is the meaning of what happened in Iowa? A. Money matters!=20 In the real world, that's the place where people get paid because of = sales revenues from products and services and not from tax dollars, = grants, or parental handouts, there is an adage: Share of Voice equals = share of market. Loosely translated that means the more you spend on = advertising to attract your customers the more customers you will = capture in the market, the greater your share of market. Kerry spent; = Kerry; captured. = = = tax e. =20 The anomaly, as far as I'm concerned, is the Edwards share of = market...I'm still digging in to confirm the facts so I cannot attest to = the validity of the numbers as of this writing, but it appears the big = winners were Kerry, Edwards & Dean, whereas it appears the big spenders = e.g. Share of Voice folks, were Kerry and Dean. =20 Conclusions: Too soon to draw any. But, not only may there be a huge = hole in the bottom of the Dean Yacht, but also there may be a great big = Sail on the spar of the Edward's little boat.=20 Hmmmm, Fancy that...=20 But on another front, similarly unimportant, what of Shrubs plan to = retrain Americans? =20 Now there is a carefully devised, economically solid piece of = legislative horseturds if ever I've read about one. =20 Let's examine the matter as if you were an American out of work: 1. you're a $56,000.00 a year professional with a masters degree in your = technical field. 2. you have a family, a mortgage, a car payment, and two animals to = support. 3. you lost your job in July of 2000 when your dot com CO. went belly = up. 4. you've been unemployed since (and your unemployment benefits have = long ago expired.) 5. your spouse, children, retirement fund and parents have been helping = you hold ends together to keep you from losing your home and your two = cars. 6. 75% of the jobs that existed in the USA prior to March of 2000 have = already been moved to offshore sites in India, Pakistan, Korea and = China...with China looming large on the horizon as the future benefactor = of an additional 20% of the existing small manufacturing contracts = currently being filled by U.S. mainland companies under contract to = large manufactures for parts and service products. =20 7. of the remaining 25% of those former jobs of 2000, 100% have been = eliminated because of changes in either the product line or the = technology of production. These jobs are gone forever. 8. additional employment opportunities that might be possible for = infrastructure rework, remodel or replace within America itself are = low-paying jobs that like the agri-based jobs that still remain with the = country will probably be given to temporary alien laborers coming up = from Mexico and South American nations. =20 But, not to worry. The president wants to retrain you. He wants to = make you a qualified laborer ready to compete in the world market. What = a great idea! =20 After you're retrained, say in software development, you can compete for = jobs with those chaps in India IBM is about to hire at $12.50 per = hour...Let's see how that calculates: 2080 hours of work in an average 40 hour week of a 52 week period times = $12.50 means you can go to work for IBM (after you're retrained, of = course) and expect to earn $26,000.00 a year (minus benefits, of = course). Wow, that's more than half of what you had earned in 2000, = just before you lost your job. If you subtract the COLA hits you missed = during the six year period (two of the years are part of your new = retraining program), you can see, your adjusted 2006 salary equates to = approximately $19,000.00 in 2000 a.d. dollars. WOW again.=20 Yep, no doubt about it...you're gonna be way ahead of the game if you = stand behind the president and support his program. I mean, $19,000.00 = a year...whoa, that's a whole lot better than the $18,720.00 you could = earn by busting your butt flippin burgers bfor $9.00 an hour at Burger = King. (Of course to draw the $9.00 an hour wage you'll have to be in = mgmt and that means you'll be on salary and you'll actually probably = work 50 hours a week for that wage, but it will be steady work.) =20 So, what's the meaning of Iowa? How's this: The president's treasure = chest is filled with hundreds of millions. That equates to a big share = of voice come November. =20 Alex ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 23:43:42 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: alexander saliby Subject: Your Support Matters. Your Vote Counts. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable People: We Need Warning Labels! Do not sit back and ignore the issue! Join now in the fight to correct an enormous wrong. Help protect = unsuspecting citizens from the harmful affects suffered from prolonged = exposures to poetry. =20 Your support makes a difference. Your contributions matter.=20 Together, we can put an end to the injustice. Support this effort; = insist that Congress require publishers to print warning labels on the = front covers of all volumes containing poetry in any form, genre or = style and in any quantity.=20 Warning Labels On Poetry (WaLoP) offers the following as the first of = such labels and welcomes along with your checks, cash or money orders = your suggestions for alternative labeling. Forward contributions to: WaLoP Headquarters=20 attn: D. Schluup P.O. Box 137 Leavenworth, WA 98826=20 Warning: This book contains poetic materials. Poetry has been known to = cause severe pain from thinking. People with limited capacities should = take extra precautions during pre-sleep periods. Avoid poetry during = puberty and at prepubescent gatherings. Poetry causes pain.=20 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 09:42:03 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "St. Thomasino" Subject: call for subs. eratio. Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit eratio welcomes submissions of poetry, visual poetry, and art. http://www.eratiopostmodernpoetry.com the deadline for issue three, spring 2004, is february 29. http://www.eratiopostmodernpoetry.com 9 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 07:05:22 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: UbuWeb Subject: U B U W E B :: Stockhausen Serves Imperialism Comments: To: ubuweb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii __ U B U W E B __ http://ubu.com UbuWeb is pleased to announce the reprint of Cornelius Cardew's, "Stockhausen Serves Imperialism and other articles" (1974) The highly controversial collected Marxist writings of British avant-garde composer Cornelius Cardew (1936-1981). Cardew, a one-time assistant to Karlheinz Stockhausen and founder of The Scrach Orchestra, gradually moved away from John Cage-inspired works toward radical Marxism. Long out of print, "Stockhausen Serves Imperialism" contains "A History of the Scratch Orchestra" by Rod Eley; "John Cage: Ghost or Monster?" by John Tilbury; and the following by Cardew: "Stockhausen Serves Imperialism," "On Criticism," "A Critical Concert,"Self-Criticism: Repudiation of Earlier Works," "Problems of Notation," and "Criticism of The Great Learning." Direct link: http://www.ubu.com/historical/cardew/cardew.html __ U B U W E B __ http://ubu.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 10:08:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Tills Subject: For replacing patriarchy and its myths MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kirby and others re: patriarchy and matriarchy myths: There are other, alternative and compelling argument(s) about patriarchy = myths, Kirby. =20 You're probably already familiar with some of these theorists who have = used extensive archeology to=20 explore the question whether "we" have always been "patriarchal," = whether the patriarchy is genetically=20 determined, whether "we" have different histories. Still, here are just = a few links to just reviews of Eisler alone,=20 so the debate is still going on. =20 Many of the links no doubt lead to writers a lot of Listserv members = have already read and digested. =20 Here's a sample of one of the essays regarding Gimbutas and her main = detractor Cynthia Eller:=20 "The Furor over Gimbutas" So polarized has this debate become that, as Wendy Griffin has observed, = "[Gimbutas'] theories tend to be judged as either absolutely true or = absolutely false..." It is impossible to mention her work in academia = without being caught up in a heated dispute; a positive mention is = immediately assumed to indicate total agreement with every = interpretation Gimbutas ever wrote, and to warrant heated attack. In = this charged atmosphere, the content of her work invariably gets lost, = and the documentation she provided is never evaluated. By any account, Marija Gimbutas had an illustrious career as a major = 20th-century archaeologist and a primary founder of modern Indo-European = studies. She excavated sites of the Vinca, Starcevo, Karanovo and Sesklo = cultures. Her ability to read sixteen European languages enabled to her = to read virtually all the archaeological literature on both sides of the = Cold War split, a crucial skill since most key publications in her study = area were written in eastern European languages. (She translated many of = them for Harvard University during her early years in the U.S.) It was = Gimbutas who laid pivotal groundwork for integrating archaelogical data = with linguistic studies of Indo-European origins. Her model for = Indo-European origins is still the leading theory in the field. Its = basic outlines are still upheld -- minus the Goddess interpretations -- = by her former student J.P. Mallory, now one of the top authorities in = the field.=20 Eller acknowledges the "tremendous linguistic expertise" Gimbutas = possessed, and her "encyclopedic knowledge of Central and Eastern = European archaeological sites that permitted her to speculate = effectively on 'big picture' questions." However, she doesn't explore = Gimburas' reasoning and completely sidesteps her heavily footnoted = analysis of why she thinks the kurgan-builders were invaders, and why = patriarchal. Eller never describes Gimbutas' analysis in its own right. = Instead she uses a pastiche of descriptions by her detractors and = supporters to assail it. She declines to compare the work of Gimbutas to = theories of the archaeological establishment, claiming that it would be = "ultimately unfair to all parties involved. There is no archaeological = consensus..." and anyway, everyone has an agenda, even the = traditionalist men. (No kidding, but what happened to the thorough = debunking promised in the introduction?) Still, this author insists that = the argument that IE spread from steppes through military conquest "is = completely speculative."=20 At this point Eller resorts to outright misrepresentation. She writes, = "As J.P. Mallory summarizes, 'almost all of the arguments for invasion = and cultural transformations are far better explained without reference = to Kurgan expansions'." Reading this came as a shock, because my = understanding of Mallory's position is quite different. I had to look it = up. Sure enough, he says the opposite: "One might at first imagine that = the economy of argument involved with the Kurgan solution should oblige = us to accept it outright. But critics do exist and their objections can = be summarized quite simply --" and here follows the phrase Eller so = misleadingly cites.=20 http://www.suppressedhistories.net/articles/eller.html http://www.drury.edu/multinl/story.cfm?ID=3D2137&NLID=3D135 http://www.commongroundmag.com/partners.html http://cable.doit.wisc.edu/ecojoy/ http://www.dhushara.com/book/renewal/voices2/eisler.htm http://www.disinfo.com/archive/pages/dossier/id296/pg1/ http://www.bigspeak.com/riane-eisler.html http://www.ciis.edu/students/syllabifall03/PARW7820-60.doc http://www.ishmael.com/interaction/network/readings/index.cfm?StartRow=3D= 451 http://clubs.csumb.edu/tot/past_events.htm http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/PI/search.jhtml?key=3D%22Riane%20Eisler%= 22 http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m1374/4_62/89431072/p1/article.jhtml http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m2872/1_28/82803991/p1/article.jhtml?ter= m=3D http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m1141/42_38/92805323/p1/article.jhtml http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m2872/3_28/90219961/p1/article.jhtml?ter= m=3D http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m2872/2_28/86049674/p1/article.jhtml?ter= m=3D http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m1374/3_62/86048066/p1/article.jhtml http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m2872/2_26/62140841/p1/article.jhtml http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m1374/1_60/59021328/p1/article.jhtml http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m1374/3_63/101261139/p1/article.jhtml 11. WHO'S AFRAID OF HIERARCHY? The people of God have to be organized. = Here's how. - 6 pages For many today, "hierarchy" connotes oppressive social or ecclesial = control. Authors such as Leonardo Boff, Sallie McFague, Rosemary Radford = Reuther,... ? Commonweal , April 07 2000 by Terence L. Nichols = 12. Humanist resources. - = 1 page This section is for humanistic organizations, products, and services. = The minimum charge for a listing (name and address) is $8.00. Each = additional word... ? Humanist , May 01 2002=20 13. 15th Anniversary.(history and future of Tikkun) = - 16 pages TIKKUN has created a rather unique reality: a magazine that also = functions as the spearhead of a = political/spiritual/intellectual/cultural movement composed... ? Tikkun , September 01 2001 by Michael Lerner=20 14. The Partnership School of the Future. = - 4 pages What will the world be like for tomorrow s children? When I look at my = two-year-old granddaughter's face, bright with wide-eyed curiosity and = joyful... ? Tikkun , January 01 2000 by Riane Eisler=20 15. Someday a woman will be president! (Commentary). = - 7 pages ABSTRACT ? White House Studies , June 22 2002 by Ann = Moliver Ruben=20 16. Call to Action celebrates equality sought and earned.(equality = between men and women in Catholic Church)(Abstract) = - 3 pages The Call to Action conference in 1998 addressed women seeking equality = within the Catholic Church. One speaker made that point that all = creatures are God's... ? National Catholic Reporter , November 13 1998 by = GARY MacEOIN=20 17. Building a just and caring world: four cornerstones. = - 6 pages Industrial revolution and technology necessitated social and cultural = changes to maintain equilibrium in the four cornerstones of human = society. Childhood,... ? Tikkun , May 01 1998 by Riane Eisler=20 18. Rhyme, Rhythm & Magic : POETRY BOOKS FOR CHILDREN.(Bibliography) = - 5 pages Want to bond? Cuddle, lounge, or hunker down on the couch, bed, or = floor and read some poems. Reading poetry bonds the two or more of = you--to each other... ? Mothering , September 01 2000 by Joan Logghe=20 19. LETTERS to the editor.(Letter to the Editor) = - 5 pages * Peace and War ? Humanist , May 01 2000=20 20. Jewish Women's History.(Review) (book review) = - 4 pages Jewish Women in America: An Historical Encyclopedia, Volumes 1 & 2. = Edited by PAULA E. HYMAN and DEBORAH DASH MOORE. New York: Routledge, = 1997. ? Judaism , March 22 1999 by Bettina Aptheker=20 EDITORIAL: A NEW MILLENIUM FOR WOMEN.(Editorial) = - 2 pages The new millennium is going to be THE MILLENIUM FOR WOMEN - when we = finally implement the changes we have worked on for so many years = worldwide. We have... ? WIN News , January 01 2000=20 Whose order is being disordered by ADHD?(attention-deficit hyperactivity = disorder)(Cover Story) - 8 = pages ADHD children should not be seen as handicapped nor genetically flawed = but instead as individuals possessing talents that need to be tapped. = Society must... ? Tikkun , July 01 1999 by Thom Hartmann=20 Call to actions that speak louder.(women in the Catholic church)(Brief = Article)(Editorial) = - 2 pages Call to Action took over downtown Milwaukee on Halloween weekend. In = case you're from very far away -- such as Outer Mongolia or the diocese = of Lincoln,... ? National Catholic Reporter , November 13 1998 by = Michael J. FARRELL=20 Goddess Unmasked.(Review) - = 4 pages By Philip G. Davis. Spence Publishing, New York, 1998. ISBN = 0-9653208-9-8. 418 pp. Hardcover, $29.95. ? Skeptical Inquirer , May 01 1999 by Robert = Sheaffer=20 ****Fatbrain Begins Self-Published E-book Sales 10/18/99 >BY Steven = Bonisteel. - 1 page SANTA CLARA, CALIFORNIA, U.S.A., 1999 OCT 18 (NB) Newsbytes. Online = bookseller Fatbrain.com [NASDAQ:FATB] says it has already signed up more = than 3,000... ? Newsbytes News Network , October 18 1999=20 Microsoft & RR Donnelley Hope To Widen E-Book Market 11/04/99.(Company = Business and Marketing) = - 2 pages NEW YORK CITY, NEW YORK, U.S.A., 1999 NOV 4 (NB). In an effort to = jump-start its own electronic book publishing initiative, Microsoft = Corp. [NASDAQ:MSFT]... ? Newsbytes News Network , November 04 1999 by Bob = Woods=20 Disinformation, Counterculture Site, Publishes First Book - You Are = Being Lied To. - 2 = page. Entertainment Editors ? Business Wire , March 12 2001=20 Noted Publishers and Authors Join the eMatter Revolution; Deliver Works = in Digital Format at Fatbrain.com. = - 4 pages SANTA CLARA, Calif.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Oct. 18, 1999-- ? Business Wire , October 18 1999=20 Fatbrain.com Revolutionizes Publishing with the Debut of eMatter. = - 3 pages SANTA CLARA, Calif.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Oct. 18, 1999-- ? Business Wire , October 18=20 http://www.meaning.org/inform/inform.html http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/surfeit.htm http://www.levity.com/mavericks/el-int.htm http://www.kalilily.net/weblog/03/05/11/122507.html http://www.kucinich.us/endorsements/endorsements/riane-eisler.php http://womenshistory.about.com/cs/ancient/tp/aatpprehistory.htm 1) Goddesses and Gods of Old Europe, 6500-3500 BC: Myths & Cult Images = A beautifully-illustrated book about the images of goddesses and other = feminine themes in Old Europe, as interpreted by Marija Gimbutas. People = of prehistory did not leave us written records to judge their culture, = so we have to interpret the drawings, sculptures and religious figures = that survive. Is Gimbutas convincing in her theories about a = woman-centered culture? Judge for yourself. 2) The Myth of Matriarchal Prehistory = Cynthia Eller, in this book first published in 2000, takes on the = "evidence" for matriarchy and woman-centered prehistory, and finds it a = myth. Her account of how the ideas came to be widely believed is itself = an example of historical analysis. Eller maintains that the gender = stereotyping and the "invented past" are not helpful to promoting a = feminist future. 3) Woman the Gatherer Francis Dahlberg carefully analyzed evidence for the diets of = prehistorical humans, and concluded that most of our ancestors' food was = plant food, and meat was often scavenged. Why does this matter? It = contradicts the traditional "man the hunter" as the primary provider, = and woman the gatherer may have had a bigger role in support of early = human life. 4) Women's Work: The First 20,000 Years = Subtitled "Women, Cloth and Society in Early Times." Author Elizabeth = Wayland Barber studied surviving samples of ancient cloth, reproduced = the techniques used to make them, and argues that women's ancient role = in making cloth and clothing made them crucial to the economic systems = of their world. 5) Engendering Archaeology: Women and Prehistory = Editors Joan M. Gero and Margaret W. Conkey have assembled = anthropological and archeological studies of the male/female division of = labor, worship of goddesses and other gender relations in an excellent = example of applying feminist theory to fields often dominated by male = perspectives. 6) Reader in Gender Archaeology Kelley Ann Hays-Gilpin and David S. Whitley have assembled articles in = this 1998 volume to explore the issues in "gender archeology." = Archeology requires conclusions for often-ambiguous evidence, and = "gender archeology" explores the ways in which gender-based assumptions = may influence those conclusions. 7) Warrior Women: An Archaeologist's Search for History's Hidden = Heroines Jeannine Davis-Kimball, Ph.D., writes of her work studying the = archeology and anthropology of Eurasian nomads. Has she discovered the = Amazons of ancient stories? Were these societies matrifocal and = egalitarian? What about goddesses? She also tells of her life of an = archeologist - she's been called a female Indiana Jones. 8) When God Was a Woman Drawing on the work of Gimbutas and feminist archeology, Merlin Stone = has written of the lost past of woman-centered societies worshipping = goddesses and honoring women, before the guns and power of the = patriarchal Indo Europeans overwhelmed them. A very popular account of = women's prehistory -- archeology with poetry, perhaps. 9) The Chalice and the Blade: Our History, Our Future = Many women and men, after reading Riane Eisler's 1988 book, find = themselves inspired to recreate a lost equality between men and women = and a peaceful future. Study groups have sprung up, goddess worship has = been encouraged, and the book remains among the most read on this topic. 10) The Hebrew Goddess Raphael Patai's classic book on Biblical study and archeology has been = expanded, still with the purpose of retrieving ancient and medieval = goddesses and mythical women within Judaism. The Hebrew scriptures often = mention worship of goddesses; later images of Lillith and Shekina have = been part of Jewish practice. =20 Steve Tills Microcomputer/Software Specialist MIS Dept.- G.W. Lisk Company, Inc. 315-462-4309 Stills@gwlisk.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 10:32:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tim Peterson Subject: Re: iowa Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I really hope someone else wins New Hampshire and beyond, as Kerry seems to have even less personality than a loaf of white bread. Tim Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 11:15:35 -0330 From: Kevin Hehir Subject: iowa could someone down there please explain to me what happened in Iowa? Does this mean that the Democrats are, in effect, going to follow Kerry into the natioal election? I try to follow it on-line through various websites but I'm a bit confused as I thought Dean was strong. Also, did Michael Moore's endorsement of Clark count for anything? backchannel is fine. thanks, kevin Tim Peterson Journals Marketing Coordinator The MIT Press Five Cambridge Center Cambridge, MA 02142-1493 phone: (617) 258-0595 fax: (617) 258-5028 http://mitpress.mit.edu/journals ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 11:10:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael J Kelleher Subject: Arundhati Roy Comments: To: core-l@listserv.buffalo.edu, ubuweb@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit PLEASE FORWARD JUST BUFFALO LITERARY CENTER FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE JANUARY 22, 2004 Contact Information: Michael Kelleher Artistic Director Phone: (716) 832-5400 FAX: (716) 832-5710 Email: mjk@justbuffalo.org JUST BUFFALO CHOOSES BOOKER PRIZE-WINNING NOVEL, THE GOD OF SMALL THINGS FOR 2004 IF ALL OF BUFFALO READ THE SAME BOOK BUFFALO – Just Buffalo Literary Center has chosen The God of Small Things, by Arundhati Roy, as the centerpiece of its 4th If All Buffalo Read The Same Book program, which will culminate in a two-day author’s visit on September 8-9, 2004. The God of Small Things won the 1997 Booker Prize for literature, Great Britain’s highest literary honor. Arundhati Roy became the first non-expatriate Indian author and the first Indian woman to win the award. The New York Times called the book “dazzling” and “remarkable,” while the Washington post noted, “It’s hard to avoid using words like ‘splendid’ and ‘stunning’ to describe this debut novel.” Set in Kerala, India in the 1960s, The God of Small Things is about two children, the two-egg twins Estha and Rahel, and the shocking consequences of a pivotal event in their young lives, the accidental death-by-drowning of a visiting English cousin. In magical and poetic language, the novel paints a vivid picture of life in a small rural Indian town, the thoughts and feelings of the two small children, and the complexity and hypocrisy of the adults in their world. It is also a poignant lesson in the destructive power of India’s caste system, and moral and political bigotry. Arundhati Roy was born in 1961 in Kerala. Her mother, a prominent social activist, founded an independent school and taught her daughter informally. At sixteen she left home, and enrolled at the Delhi School of Architecture. She left the trade after a few years to work on projects for the screen, writing for TV and movies, neither of which brought her great success. She then published a criticism of the acclaimed film, "Bandit Queen"; the controversy that followed resulted in a lawsuit against her. Since the publication of The God of Small Things, Roy has put her talents and status to use as an activist, publishing exclusively political essays, talks and interviews on topics ranging from dam-building in India to the war on Iraq. Media, book clubs, organizations, educators, public officials and individuals who would like more information or a reader's guide, as well as those interested in sponsorship, can contact Just Buffalo at 832-5400 or by writing info@justbuffalo.org. -30- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 11:07:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tim Peterson Subject: Re: Discrepancies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I've been trying to behave and keep quite about this stuff, but I need to make this point: I think it may have more to do with the type of poetry we're looking at. I worry about the extent to which avant-garde poetry is a more "male" phenomenon than other types of poetry (perhaps because of the implied war metaphors?). That is, we often consider bad poetry to be both "weak" and "sentimental," which are both stereotypically gendered accusations. When I was marching in protest of the war in Iraq here in Boston around Copley square, I was surprised to suddenly find myself acting very butch, and I wondered why this was. I tried doing chants that weren't so butch, and they came out campy. There's a way in which political and poetic combativeness, even liberal combativeness, lends itself to stereotypically male behavior. I realize that this is gender & doesn't explain the distribution of sexes that we're discussing per se., but once I look outside Silliman's category of "post-avant," contemporary American poetry starts to look a lot more like a female-dominated art form. Is there a way we can fix this, by tracing the sources of our own aesthetics back to more female modernists and surrealists, & making those figures more prominent in the history of avant-garde poetry? On the issue of patriarchy, I think we do indeed live in a patriarchal society, and I think it's worth noting that a lot of women outside academia support or buy into this system in important ways. Of course I agree that patriarchy is bad bad bad, but it might also be worth looking at why it's so seductive for these women to continue to invest in that system, because we're not going to create change without their help, and that's a class issue in itself. Tim Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 00:14:04 -0800 From: Jeffre Jullic Subject: Re: Discrepancies I agree with Max that Noah's numbers are extremely problematic and unreliable. In college, they used to talk about "Rocks for Jocks" (geology courses dumbed down to get the sports scholarship students through science requirements) and --"Poets' Math." Noah's numbers, upon closer inspection, belie the implied moral he draws from them, I believe. They may show the ~opposite~ of what's being read into them. What they show is a "patriarchal society" where ~over a quarter~ of the journals counted (8 out of 30) either include male/female authors' names in equal numbers or where there are more female names than male. How insidiously patriarchal is over a quarter egalitarian/female majority? And, if you accept, as I would, that a range of 54% male/46% female to 57% male/43% female is ~quite good~ for a patriarchal society (and that the standard error of Noah's numbers alone may account for that difference, since, as Anthony Robinson pointed out, there is miscounting involved),--- then almost half (43%) of the journals show equal numbers, more females than males, or that narrow 55.5%-to-44.5% difference. If, as some editors have been attesting, submissions themselves are weighted toward about 70% male, then journals are ~mis~-representative in doing better than those realities. All that ~Affirmative Action~ asks, by law, is that a workplace ~meet~ the distribution of the general population, within any particular field. If women are only 1% of the general population for, say, butchers, then one percent hired ~satisfies~ Affirmative Action. ~Being and Nothingness~ defines "bad faith" as the x-that-is-more-than-y: "the love that is more than love"; the waiter who is more than a waiter. By trying to ~do better~ than a 70%/30% ratio that the actual submissions consist of, things are entering into The Action That Is ~More Affirmative Than~ Affirmative Action. There are fields where the male/female-female/male ratio differs. Pool halls are disproportionately male. Manicure parlors are disproportionately female. It may very well be the case that experimental poetry is a game that most women are ~too smart~ to play. Or, as Mark pointed out, that most female first name poets have gone over to "School of Quietude" journals. Regardless, attempts to reconstruct Noah's numbers by checking on-line table of contents for the issues involve show a very different picture. Noah and Sara were (excluding translators, many of whom were female but) counting ~every~ name in the table of contents, and conflating poets with essayists, short story writers, reviewers, and ---Dead White Males like ~Catullus~ and ~Tristan Tzara!~ whose moldering antiquity places them in a completely separate category, I would say, that doesn't represent some sort of place-in-the-sun-stealing threat to ~anybody.~ Within those different sub-groups, the imbalance for, say, short story writers (at a glance) is vastly more weighted toward males than for poets. This further distorts the numbers. When Max says, "Rather than counting the number of poets, why not count the number of pages those poets' work takes up? But then the question arises: why do so much counting?",--- I'd take him one step further: why not count ~the number of letters in the authors' names~ and whether male/female falls on odd/even pages? Unanalyzed, unsystematized, uncrunched numbers left in and of themselves as though they were in scare quotes show nothing. More impression-biassing to Noah's presentation is the ~anecdote~ that he lays out at the beginning ("my partner, the poet Sara Veglahn, had perused it's pages for a while. . . . the first thing she said was"). It's that that skews a narrative onto those mute and arguable numbers, ---or leads the un-statistics-minded to just glaze out entirely at their cacaphonous jumble. (Excuse my cynicism, please: "the first thing she said was",--- as if Diotima herself had appeared at the end of Plato to bring Socrates the truth!) The gratuitous framing of these questions in heterodominant self-portraiture does not add to their believability, for me. Taking a tattooed War of The Sexes that may exist in your apartment out onto the Poetics List is only a re-inscribing of gender onto sex from the personal sphere into the public. Who ever told you you were a man in the first place?! (and so redundantly: "a man ( or as the particular 'man' that I am)") Maybe because he's so busy counting out that wad of fifties I threw on the bed, My Last Hustler can't find even ~one~ male prostitute in those journals, Noah. (He only counts ~inches!~) . . . Which of the following, two, "equally good" poem excerpts should not have been published in ~26: issue B,~ on the basis that its author has a male name? 1 Ears stoppered sailing straight through strait's swift steering away all the same Each death is a little valve 2 scripted tolerance compensators were not summarized in the final report rectangular volume object had all faces in it was supposed to be all other sides What does the sex of an author ~signify~ in a dominant style of writing that is, for the most part, based on dispensing with all the biographical markers of the author? To quote the poet Sara Veglahn's poem, "The lakes unsafe . . .", from that same issue: "It is likely ~I~ will be lost" (my emphasis). Is the word "breast" ("breast wove w winter-cure mustard) more female when Geraldine Monk uses it, than when Valerie Coulton contaminates ~l'ecriture feminine~ by collaborating with Ed Smallfield on the line "a year of breasts and cigarettes", in the same issue? If there are questions here, the biggest question is: what vestigial relevance to the reading of a poem does author's sex, race, economic status, sexual preference, or whatever have when those poems have completely foreclosed all those identity politics? ("his or her asteroid" ---Hung Q. Tu, in the ~Aufgabe~ that Noah counts) Interestingly, ---and as paradoxical as it sounds--- those numbers show a ~negative correlation~ between the size of the journal and the number of ~both~ male (-.80) and female (-.47) authors' names. That is, the fewer the number of authors there are in a journal, men are only around 20% more likely to appear, but women are almost 50% more likely to be included. There's a double-bind in Noah's "Unclear" category, too. Where sex is not unclear because the author is using initials, it's unclear because the first name is ~"ethnic"~ and not recognizably Western. So, ethnic identity actuals ~competes with~ sexual parity in those numbers. If the authors didn't have ethnic names, there'd be more women to count. If there's a bean, I'll count it: Using the Eli Gordon approximation method (based solely on first names, with numerous "Unclear"), the on-line Fence mastheads since issue 3n2 would seem to show the number of female poets included to be steadily declining. 6n1 10 F out of 38 poets = .26 5n2 12 F out of 32 poets = .37 5n1 16 F out of 48 poets = .33 4n2 16 F out of 36 poets = .44 4n1 21 F out of 41 poets = .51 3n2 21 F out of 33 poets = .63 Horrors. WHAT HAS MAX WINTER DONE WITH REBECCA WOLFF, ANYWAY?! ("Put it down. Put the phone down now." --- Timothy Donnelly, "Accidental Species") I find it very disturbing, after all the words I (or any poet) have tried so carefully to choose in the poems that I submit to journals, that I might be rejected on the basis of the one, single word that I did ~not~ choose but that my parents chose instead: my first name. (The scratch paper Excel spreadsheet I'm basing my numerical analysis on can be double-checked at http://jeffreyjullich.tripod.com/NUMBERS.xls.) Jeffre Tim Peterson Journals Marketing Coordinator The MIT Press Five Cambridge Center Cambridge, MA 02142-1493 phone: (617) 258-0595 fax: (617) 258-5028 http://mitpress.mit.edu/journals ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 11:35:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mairead Byrne Subject: Re: Discrepancies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Lots of great stuff here, Tim. I love when people say they "worry" about = "the extent to which avant-garde poetry is a male phenomenon" etc. I = never worry about things like that. I won't take time right now to tell = you what I do worry about. I also love what you say about macho war protests. I think you're dead on = here (though I do have echoes of minxish chants from the eighties in = London: "Limp-wristed something something nancy-boys --YAY!" I'm sure = someone can fill in the blanks). I don't really agree with you that women buy into patriarchal systems, = including academia. It's true in a way. But the currency ain't minted = which allows women, or anyone, to buy *out* of these systems. Women are = just as embedded in and composed of them as anyone else. There's no easy = passage out. I don't think you can bribe someone or even take a solitary = (or group) stand. Time and slow hoeing is the way to go. Mairead www.maireadbyrne.blogspot.com >>> tpeterso@MIT.EDU 01/22/04 11:21 AM >>> I've been trying to behave and keep quite about this stuff, but I need to make this point: I think it may have more to do with the type of poetry we're looking at. I worry about the extent to which avant-garde poetry is = a more "male" phenomenon than other types of poetry (perhaps because of the implied war metaphors?). That is, we often consider bad poetry to be both "weak" and "sentimental," which are both stereotypically gendered = accusations. When I was marching in protest of the war in Iraq here in Boston around Copley square, I was surprised to suddenly find myself acting very butch, and I wondered why this was. I tried doing chants that weren't so butch, and they came out campy. There's a way in which political and poetic combativeness, even liberal combativeness, lends itself to stereotypically male behavior. I realize that this is gender & doesn't explain the distribution of sexes that we're discussing per se., but once I look outside Silliman's category of "post-avant," contemporary American poetry starts to look a lot more like a female-dominated art form. Is there a way we can fix this, by tracing the sources of our own aesthetics back to more female modernists and surrealists, & making those figures more prominent in the history of avant-garde poetry? On the issue of patriarchy, I think we do indeed live in a patriarchal society, and I think it's worth noting that a lot of women outside = academia support or buy into this system in important ways. Of course I agree that patriarchy is bad bad bad, but it might also be worth looking at why it's so seductive for these women to continue to invest in that system, because we're not going to create change without their help, and that's a class issue in itself. Tim Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 00:14:04 -0800 From: Jeffre Jullic Subject: Re: Discrepancies I agree with Max that Noah's numbers are extremely problematic and unreliable. In college, they used to talk about "Rocks for Jocks" (geology courses dumbed down to get the sports scholarship students through science requirements) and --"Poets' Math." Noah's numbers, upon closer inspection, belie the implied moral he draws from them, I believe. They may show the ~opposite~ of what's being read into them. What they show is a "patriarchal society" where ~over a quarter~ of the journals counted (8 out of 30) either include male/female authors' names in equal numbers or where there are more female names than male. How insidiously patriarchal is over a quarter egalitarian/female majority? And, if you accept, as I would, that a range of 54% male/46% female to 57% male/43% female is ~quite good~ for a patriarchal society (and that the standard error of Noah's numbers alone may account for that difference, since, as Anthony Robinson pointed out, there is miscounting involved),--- then almost half (43%) of the journals show equal numbers, more females than males, or that narrow 55.5%-to-44.5% difference. If, as some editors have been attesting, submissions themselves are weighted toward about 70% male, then journals are ~mis~-representative in doing better than those realities. All that ~Affirmative Action~ asks, by law, is that a workplace ~meet~ the distribution of the general population, within any particular field. If women are only 1% of the general population for, say, butchers, then one percent hired ~satisfies~ Affirmative Action. ~Being and Nothingness~ defines "bad faith" as the x-that-is-more-than-y: "the love that is more than love"; the waiter who is more than a waiter. By trying to ~do better~ than a 70%/30% ratio that the actual submissions consist of, things are entering into The Action That Is ~More Affirmative Than~ Affirmative Action. There are fields where the male/female-female/male ratio differs. Pool halls are disproportionately male. Manicure parlors are disproportionately female. It may very well be the case that experimental poetry is a game that most women are ~too smart~ to play. Or, as Mark pointed out, that most female first name poets have gone over to "School of Quietude" journals. Regardless, attempts to reconstruct Noah's numbers by checking on-line table of contents for the issues involve show a very different picture. Noah and Sara were (excluding translators, many of whom were female but) counting ~every~ name in the table of contents, and conflating poets with essayists, short story writers, reviewers, and ---Dead White Males like ~Catullus~ and ~Tristan Tzara!~ whose moldering antiquity places them in a completely separate category, I would say, that doesn't represent some sort of place-in-the-sun-stealing threat to ~anybody.~ Within those different sub-groups, the imbalance for, say, short story writers (at a glance) is vastly more weighted toward males than for poets. This further distorts the numbers. When Max says, "Rather than counting the number of poets, why not count the number of pages those poets' work takes up? But then the question arises: why do so much counting?",--- I'd take him one step further: why not count ~the number of letters in the authors' names~ and whether male/female falls on odd/even pages? Unanalyzed, unsystematized, uncrunched numbers left in and of themselves as though they were in scare quotes show nothing. More impression-biassing to Noah's presentation is the ~anecdote~ that he lays out at the beginning ("my partner, the poet Sara Veglahn, had perused it's pages for a while. . . . the first thing she said was"). It's that that skews a narrative onto those mute and arguable numbers, ---or leads the un-statistics-minded to just glaze out entirely at their cacaphonous jumble. (Excuse my cynicism, please: "the first thing she said was",--- as if Diotima herself had appeared at the end of Plato to bring Socrates the truth!) The gratuitous framing of these questions in heterodominant self-portraiture does not add to their believability, for me. Taking a tattooed War of The Sexes that may exist in your apartment out onto the Poetics List is only a re-inscribing of gender onto sex from the personal sphere into the public. Who ever told you you were a man in the first place?! (and so redundantly: "a man ( or as the particular 'man' that I am)") Maybe because he's so busy counting out that wad of fifties I threw on the bed, My Last Hustler can't find even ~one~ male prostitute in those journals, Noah. (He only counts ~inches!~) . . . Which of the following, two, "equally good" poem excerpts should not have been published in ~26: issue B,~ on the basis that its author has a male name? 1 Ears stoppered sailing straight through strait's swift steering away all the same Each death is a little valve 2 scripted tolerance compensators were not summarized in the final report rectangular volume object had all faces in it was supposed to be all other sides What does the sex of an author ~signify~ in a dominant style of writing that is, for the most part, based on dispensing with all the biographical markers of the author? To quote the poet Sara Veglahn's poem, "The lakes unsafe . . .", from that same issue: "It is likely ~I~ will be lost" (my emphasis). Is the word "breast" ("breast wove w winter-cure mustard) more female when Geraldine Monk uses it, than when Valerie Coulton contaminates ~l'ecriture feminine~ by collaborating with Ed Smallfield on the line "a year of breasts and cigarettes", in the same issue? If there are questions here, the biggest question is: what vestigial relevance to the reading of a poem does author's sex, race, economic status, sexual preference, or whatever have when those poems have completely foreclosed all those identity politics? ("his or her asteroid" ---Hung Q. Tu, in the ~Aufgabe~ that Noah counts) Interestingly, ---and as paradoxical as it sounds--- those numbers show a ~negative correlation~ between the size of the journal and the number of ~both~ male (-.80) and female (-.47) authors' names. That is, the fewer the number of authors there are in a journal, men are only around 20% more likely to appear, but women are almost 50% more likely to be included. There's a double-bind in Noah's "Unclear" category, too. Where sex is not unclear because the author is using initials, it's unclear because the first name is ~"ethnic"~ and not recognizably Western. So, ethnic identity actuals ~competes with~ sexual parity in those numbers. If the authors didn't have ethnic names, there'd be more women to count. If there's a bean, I'll count it: Using the Eli Gordon approximation method (based solely on first names, with numerous "Unclear"), the on-line Fence mastheads since issue 3n2 would seem to show the number of female poets included to be steadily declining. 6n1 10 F out of 38 poets =3D .26 5n2 12 F out of 32 poets =3D .37 5n1 16 F out of 48 poets =3D .33 4n2 16 F out of 36 poets =3D .44 4n1 21 F out of 41 poets =3D .51 3n2 21 F out of 33 poets =3D .63 Horrors. WHAT HAS MAX WINTER DONE WITH REBECCA WOLFF, ANYWAY?! ("Put it down. Put the phone down now." --- Timothy Donnelly, "Accidental Species") I find it very disturbing, after all the words I (or any poet) have tried so carefully to choose in the poems that I submit to journals, that I might be rejected on the basis of the one, single word that I did ~not~ choose but that my parents chose instead: my first name. (The scratch paper Excel spreadsheet I'm basing my numerical analysis on can be double-checked at http://jeffreyjullich.tripod.com/NUMBERS.xls.) Jeffre Tim Peterson Journals Marketing Coordinator The MIT Press Five Cambridge Center Cambridge, MA 02142-1493 phone: (617) 258-0595 fax: (617) 258-5028 http://mitpress.mit.edu/journals ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 10:45:34 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: Discrepancies In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MAIREAD I have to admit that I havent been following this thread but I bid to disagree with you here. There is a currency, it's called living without, living outside the system, not buying into insurance & job security & urban blight & beauracracy, administrative distopia & in its stead creating alternative networks for schools, education, culture, & living. The anarchist network, in my mind is one of the best examples of an egalitarian mindset which equally empowers all the sexes, however many that might be. On Thursday, January 22, 2004, at 10:35 AM, Mairead Byrne wrote: > > > I don't really agree with you that women buy into patriarchal systems, > including academia. It's true in a way. But the currency ain't > minted which allows women, or anyone, to buy *out* of these systems. > Women are just as embedded in and composed of them as anyone else. > There's no easy passage out. I don't think you can bribe someone or > even take a solitary (or group) stand. Time and slow hoeing is the > way to go. > > Mairead ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 12:02:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mairead Byrne Subject: Re: Discrepancies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline You're probably right. I've been very influenced by my study of metaphor, = example, and categories in general: how they become established and how = change occurs. I came to an appreciation of convention, chiefly on the = grounds of its being, or WHAT IS. In a sense I suppose I came to an appreciation of the Lowest Common = Denominator too. The limits of a thing twinkle with possibility but = convention is also a constructive thing. I'm sorry if this is incomprehens= ible: I should be ashamed to say that much of my philosophy is founded on = my study of figures, but so it has been until recently. I am aware of my = own position, which is closer to hyphenation than anarchism. I'd like to = hear more about what you say.=20 Mairead www.maireadbyrne.blogspot.com >>> dtv@MWT.NET 01/22/04 11:45 AM >>> MAIREAD I have to admit that I havent been following this thread but I bid to disagree with you here. There is a currency, it's called living without, living outside the system, not buying into insurance & job security & urban blight & beauracracy, administrative distopia & in its stead creating alternative networks for schools, education, culture, & living. The anarchist network, in my mind is one of the best examples of an egalitarian mindset which equally empowers all the sexes, however many that might be. On Thursday, January 22, 2004, at 10:35 AM, Mairead Byrne wrote: > > > I don't really agree with you that women buy into patriarchal systems, > including academia. It's true in a way. But the currency ain't > minted which allows women, or anyone, to buy *out* of these systems. > Women are just as embedded in and composed of them as anyone else. > There's no easy passage out. I don't think you can bribe someone or > even take a solitary (or group) stand. Time and slow hoeing is the > way to go. > > Mairead ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 12:17:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: noah eli gordon Subject: Re: Discrepancies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Jeffre, What glorious rhetorical twists! I wonder if it’ll make it onto the website for your Selected Listserv Posts… _________________________________________________________________ Check out the new MSN 9 Dial-up — fast & reliable Internet access with prime features! http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=dialup/home&ST=1 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 12:16:52 -0500 Reply-To: az421@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rob McLennan Subject: STANZAS #37 - Rob Budde Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT new from above/ground press STANZAS #37 Americausal by Rob Budde free if you find it, $4 sample (add $2 international) & $20 for 5 issues (outside canada, $20 US)(payable to rob mclennan), c/o 858 somerset st w, ottawa ontario canada k1r 6r7 Rob Budde teaches creative writing and critical theory at the University of Northern BC in Prince George. He has published four books (two poetry -- Catch as Catch and traffick, and two experimental novels -- Misshapen and, most recently, The Dying Poem). Rob has also just recently published a collection of interviews (In Muddy Water: Conversations with 11 Poets, J. Gordon Shillingford), and with his new press, wink books, self-published the poetry chapbook my american movie. He has been a finalist for the John Hirsch Award for Most Promising Manitoba Writer and the McNally-Robinson Manitoba Book of the Year. In 1995, Budde completed a PhD in Creative Writing at the University of Calgary. Check out his online literary journals called stonestone (http://stonestone.unbc.ca) and the soon-to-appear literary archive push (http://push.unbc.ca ). STANZAS magazine, for long poems/sequences, published at random in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada. previous issues include work by Gil McElroy, Aaron Peck, carla milo, Gerry Gilbert, George Bowering, Sheila E. Murphy & Douglas Barbour, Lisa Samuels, Ian Whistle, Gerry Gilbert, nathalie stephens, Meredith Quartermain, etc. 1000 copies distributed free around various places. exchanges welcome. next issue: derek beaulieu (Calgary) submissions encouraged, with s.a.s.e. & good patience (i take forever) of up to 28 pages. complete bibliography & backlist availability now on-line at www.track0.com/rob_mclennan ======= -- poet/editor/pub. ... ed. STANZAS mag & side/lines: a new canadian poetics (Insomniac)...pub., above/ground press ...coord.,SPAN-O + ottawa small press fair ...8th coll'n - red earth (Black Moss) ...c/o RR#1 Maxville ON K0C 1T0 www.track0.com/rob_mclennan * http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 12:23:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: The January Project on Unpleasant Event Schedule In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040122104703.02db1ee8@po14.mit.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi all, The January Project, a series of postcards i sent to poet Sean Cole in January 2003, are now up at http://www.unpleasanteventschedule.com Click on my name first if you'd like to find out some background on how these postcards came about. Thanks to Daniel Nester, friend of the word, for doing this. Happy reading (and email me yr always welcome feedback). best, david -- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 www.boogcity.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 11:47:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Annie Finch Subject: gender and movement redefinitions In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040122104703.02db1ee8@po14.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" This redefinition is a wonderful goal. But actually to achieve it would be more disruptive to the avant status quo than your comment seems to anticipate....It would require having to redefine modernism and surrealism, let alone post-avant. . . For example, "Modernism," pretty much defined in opposition to the female voice from inception ("this ends the idea of poetry for ladies!" "Hold on to your hats, ladies!' Etc!) is already beginning to be redefined, by scholars such as Suzanne Clark. The resulting new view of modernism includes writers who embody exactly what the line of post-Romantic Power Poetry, culminating in the current post-avant, has defined itself in opposition to for decades (such as Millay)....Yet this odd-looking new view might well present a useful picture of what modernism was, or meant, in a larger context-- as opposed to the usual picture of what the couple of white guys who grabbed the label for themselves and their friends and then shut their eyes to everyone else seems to have wished it meant.-- To actually alter these movement definitions so they become more truly inclusive, not just limited to the core group of guys and a few token females, will not be as simple as finding a few "good" females to look back to but will instead poses an uncomfortable kind of a logical fallacy, like John Hollander saying that when minority poets write "good poems" then he will pay attention to their work, but of course the definition of a "good poet" has been made in order to leave out minority poets. To do the task right would need to amount to the dismantling of a self-fulfilling prophecy, assuming that, as it seems and as you imply, the current definition of a modernist, an avant-gardist, etc. has a built-in tendency to leave out female or female-identified poets. In fact, the same process is now happening with Romanticism as well--poets (mostly women) who were long considered to be "outside" of Romanticism are now being defined as Romantic and in the process are expanding the definition of Romanticism. And no doubt in another halfcentury, hard-working critics will need do the same thing for the post-avant. It would be nice if we did things differently at the beginning of movements, so that our work wouldn't have to be torn apart and rebuilt all over again a generation or two later. Who's holding their breath? not me. Annie > once I look outside Silliman's category >of "post-avant," contemporary American poetry starts to look a lot more >like a female-dominated art form. Is there a way we can fix this, by >tracing the sources of our own aesthetics back to more female modernists >and surrealists, & making those figures more prominent in the history of >avant-garde poetry? > >Tim > ___________________________________ Annie Finch http://www.users.muohio.edu/finchar English Department, Miami University, Ohio Care2 make the world greener! Help the planet each day! It's free and easy: http://www.Care2.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 12:56:45 -0500 Reply-To: olsonjk@delhi.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kirby Olson Organization: SUNY Delhi Subject: Hermaphrodite Poems, Anyone? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > mIEKAL, I'm amazed that anybody would ask me for a poem. I haven't written > poetry for about twenty years. I had some pieces in quietist journals such as > Partisan Review when I was very young, but since then have mostly focused on > essays. However, about two years ago I started writing poems again. This list > and the conversation with Kari Edwards (mostly backchannel) haunted me for about > six weeks. I planned to write a lengthy epic called The Hermaphrodite, but these > four lines are all that came. > > > > > > > > > The Hermaphrodite > > > > > > Walking slowly along the icy road > > > She thinks of her babyhood with the hippo father > > > & swaddled in clothes how her clit like an elephant's trunk > > > Would wander about the room searching for peanuts >> ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 13:03:46 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Blackbox Winter Gallery 2004 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello everyone, The latest Blackbox gallery is now available for viewing. This one privileges words without pictures, though we will return to the usual mixed bag in the Spring. Included are works by Tony Green, Jeff Harrison, Harriet Zinnes, Alan Sondheim, Carlos Luis, Donna Kuhn, Andrew Lundwall, Sheila E. Murphy, Vernon Frazer, John M. Bennett, Jim Leftwich, and Bill Allegrezza. As per usual, go to WilliamJamesAustin.com and then follow the Blackbox link. Don't forget to scroll down down down. While your at it, you might visit or revisit some of the galleries from 2003. Enjoy, and thanks to all. Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com kojapress.com amazon.com b&n.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 13:18:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Tills Subject: Re: patriarchy/matriarchy distinction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My post this morning was formatted poorly, as I was in a rush. =20 My aim was to respond to some of Kirby's statements. In fact, late last evening I spent several hours copying/pasting links to=20 matriarchical Humanists/Feminists, like Maria Gimbutas, whose writing in "gender archeology"=20 Kirby believes Cynthia Eller debunks, as well as some whose work has come much=20 later than the 1970's, namely Riane Eisler,=20 whose syntheses in several books and projects are quite vital today.=20 I disagree with the opinion that "in Women's studies departments the idea of a primitive perfect matriarchy has been shredded." I taught Eisler and Gimbutas writings in my own classes from 1991 on, =20 so that's awhile ago, but here the link below=20 should lead to fairly compelling readings about Ms. Eller, who is NOT universally revered. I think that these essays provide pretty good=20 support for Gimbutas and find a lot of=20 holes in Cynthia Eller's arguments:=20 http://www.suppressedhistories.net/articles/eller2.html Kirby wrote:=20 "There were new age matriarchal feminists in the 1970s=20 who invented the idea of a perfect matriarchal society,=20 but all these women have been completely torn to shreds=20 in academic circles. Even in women's studies departments=20 the idea of a primitive perfect matriarchy has been shredded.=20 You could read Cynthia Eller's book The Myth of Matriarchy.=20 She gives a good overview of what has taken place, and also=20 provides a good bibliography for further study. She teaches=20 at a university in New York City, or close by (I forget which)." One perennial problem for me as this pertains to "poetics" is "how to create non-patriarchical poetries/writings or,=20 better, how to de-center my own writing that is not "truly non-patriarchical in form," and "whether" to de-center it at all; also, I guess, what is in fact "non-patriarchical form," and what does that have to do=20 with following a new aesthetic impulse that=20 may not want to bother with those concerns. In addition, if one is really concerned about creating "non-patriarchical" forms, than why bother with Literary venues and objects at all. There are many more questions... And sometimes I can get a less mundane handle on them (I know none of this is new to anyone). Back to the "myth of matriarchy," I think there is=20 ample evidence in archeology to show that matriarchical societies existed and that they were=20 much more peaceful, but even if they didn't exist, they can and will be developed in the future=20 and need to be developed in the future, of course, so interpreting the past needs to change, again no new idea. Blah blah. Shoot, I hate being so darn obvious. P.S. If this is all just a game, and you, Kirby, are directing it, I guess I've fallen for it and=20 I'm being a bit of a fool. One of the most=20 "feminist things one can do," to my understanding, anyway, is to figure out my own agenda, my own idealogy inherent in playing this game, posting=20 my male Joe Matriarchical Promoter posts, etc. =20 Steve Tills Microcomputer/Software Specialist MIS Dept.- G.W. Lisk Company, Inc. 315-462-4309 Stills@gwlisk.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 13:25:16 -0500 Reply-To: olsonjk@delhi.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kirby Olson Organization: SUNY Delhi Subject: Re: neanderthals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I was interested in this discussion of neanderthals. I think one thing that might link a lot of these discussions is binaries and then the borderland between. This is what the eco-critics are calling the liminal area between genres, similar to the liminal area between different eco-systems. Hedgelines, borders of forests, this sort of place tends to have more food than other areas and is therefore very heavily populated if I understand what I've been reading. The area between men & women (hermaphrodites) -- tends to create extremely fruitful discussion. Corso was extremely interested in liminal boundaries and often wrote about creatures that go between. Frankenstein. Goth kids. This area of ambiguity is a good area for poetry. What's settled is uninteresting, but what's unsettling isn't. In his book Herald of the Autochthonic Spirit Corso has a three-page length poem entitled, "In Praise of Neanderthal Man." In a birth old and horrendous I heard in a basement in a dream the birth-scream of mothers bounce off the walls of sooty coves and bins and saw there white-gowned doctors yanking goat-legg'd infants from out torturous vulvas ................................................... 2 pgs. later, poem ends -- Know this about that hoary brutish bow-legg'd miserable toiler who to this day is deemed a stupid thing unfit for survival you who claim his seed died with him nor ever did associate (much less copulate) with such heir as Cro-Mag, son of bear -- to you I say Neanderthal himself knew to sing inventor of the churinga (first musical instrument) able to make the air ring I say to you you can separate the yolk from the white of the egg yet without the one the other is none -- so again unto you I say O thou bigot anthropology deem not Sir Neanderthal a stupid thing all milk and no cream in his time throughout the world he was philosoph supreme I don't know whether this creature lived under a matriarchy or a patriarchy -- as Mark said last evening these systems are not usually strictly dichotomous. Corso himself used to talk about the he-she (to my shame he considered me to be one) as the course of the future. As for the stupid bigot anthropology -- most anthropologists consider the early work of Gimbutas to be sound, but the later work to be quite suspect. What's really suspect is the new age and 70s feminist appropriation of that work. We tend to put things into categories. Matriarchal/patriarchal. Bachofen did very good work for his time -- he was cited by Engels, Nietzsche, and later by Bataille, Klossowski and many many others. He's the foundation of matriarchal myth theory in our time. He sees matriarchy as based on desire, and patriarchy as based on principles. He's mostly writing about the Greeks. I don't think he touches upon Turkish symbolsm. He deals with Roman funeral statuary. He's very suggestive and poetic writer. But poetry is what's outside of categories, or moves between them -- or somehow unsettles our categories, and causes shifts, or deterritorializes. Bachofen is very suggestive in this way, which is why his work is still alive and in print. He teases open things that can only be half-seen and almost makes sense of them. In this sense the better theorists and poets have something in common. There's an area between principles and pure empiricism that is shifting and curious. Neanderthals did have principles. They buried their dead. How simple were Neanderthals -- Corso writes -- Yet unlike their brain-sucking forebears and the soon to come Alpine eater of bears they bound their dead with beast gut from feet to head lest the ghost escape (first record of magic date) and buried them beneath the ground upon which they slept and ate (pp. 43-45 -- Herald of the Autochthonic Spirit -- Corso) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 11:38:01 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: charles alexander Subject: Re: gender and movement redefinitions In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Yes, but the question seems posed today as if it hasn't been posed before. What about the attempt, in the 1980's, primarily centered around the journal HOW(ever) that presented a great deal of women's work that might be considered "post-avant," and argued for a more inclusive project of the post-modern. What about other such attempts? There are certainly many who have worked for decades at a "redefinition" similar to that of which you speak. I tend to work from a certain assumption that this redefinition is ongoing, and I hope my work (in various areas) is a part of it. Charles At 11:47 AM 1/22/2004 -0500, you wrote: >This redefinition is a wonderful goal. But actually to achieve it >would be more disruptive to the avant status quo than your comment >seems to anticipate....It would require having to redefine modernism >and surrealism, let alone post-avant. . . > >For example, "Modernism," pretty much defined in opposition to the >female voice from inception ("this ends the idea of poetry for >ladies!" "Hold on to your hats, ladies!' Etc!) is already beginning >to be redefined, by scholars such as Suzanne Clark. The resulting >new view of modernism includes writers who embody exactly what the >line of post-Romantic Power Poetry, culminating in the current >post-avant, has defined itself in opposition to for decades (such as >Millay)....Yet this odd-looking new view might well present a useful >picture of what modernism was, or meant, in a larger context-- as >opposed to the usual picture of what the couple of white guys who >grabbed the label for themselves and their friends and then shut >their eyes to everyone else seems to have wished it meant.-- > >To actually alter these movement definitions so they become more >truly inclusive, not just limited to the core group of guys and a few >token females, will not be as simple as finding a few "good" females >to look back to but will instead poses an uncomfortable kind of a >logical fallacy, like John Hollander saying that when minority poets >write "good poems" then he will pay attention to their work, but of >course the definition of a "good poet" has been made in order to >leave out minority poets. > >To do the task right would need to amount to the dismantling of a >self-fulfilling prophecy, assuming that, as it seems and as you >imply, the current definition of a modernist, an avant-gardist, etc. >has a built-in tendency to leave out female or female-identified >poets. In fact, the same process is now happening with Romanticism as >well--poets (mostly women) who were long considered to be "outside" >of Romanticism are now being defined as Romantic and in the process >are expanding the definition of Romanticism. And no doubt in another >halfcentury, hard-working critics will need do the same thing for the >post-avant. It would be nice if we did things differently at the >beginning of movements, so that our work wouldn't have to be torn >apart and rebuilt all over again a generation or two later. Who's >holding their breath? not me. > >Annie > > >> once I look outside Silliman's category >>of "post-avant," contemporary American poetry starts to look a lot more >>like a female-dominated art form. Is there a way we can fix this, by >>tracing the sources of our own aesthetics back to more female modernists >>and surrealists, & making those figures more prominent in the history of >>avant-garde poetry? >> >>Tim > > >___________________________________ >Annie Finch >http://www.users.muohio.edu/finchar >English Department, Miami University, Ohio > > >Care2 make the world greener! >Help the planet each day! It's free and easy: >http://www.Care2.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 18:28:29 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Frank Sherlock Subject: Re: Discrepancies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Tim- The great part about your post, & I think this is key- you're questioning your combativeness. Is it a "stereotypical male behavior" issue? Is it a "crowds & power" issue? Are you "being butch" for purposes of liberation, or oppression? Where is this combativeness directed? Don't discount your righteous anger in the face of an outrageous imperial policy. Many women I've seen/known at anti-war rallies have been "butch" in voicing their dissent, with little time for gentler and/or campier expressions. As far as the "post-avant" as a male phenomenon, I have to disagree. Most of the interesting "post-avant" poets writing under 40 are women. Increasingly, they are editing magazines & running presses. I don't see this as an issue ten years from now. And the history will take care of itself. Frank Sherlock >From: Tim Peterson >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: Discrepancies >Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 11:07:26 -0500 > >I've been trying to behave and keep quite about this stuff, but I need to >make this point: I think it may have more to do with the type of poetry >we're looking at. I worry about the extent to which avant-garde poetry is a >more "male" phenomenon than other types of poetry (perhaps because of the >implied war metaphors?). That is, we often consider bad poetry to be both >"weak" and "sentimental," which are both stereotypically gendered >accusations. > >When I was marching in protest of the war in Iraq here in Boston around >Copley square, I was surprised to suddenly find myself acting very butch, >and I wondered why this was. I tried doing chants that weren't so butch, >and they came out campy. There's a way in which political and poetic >combativeness, even liberal combativeness, lends itself to stereotypically >male behavior. > >I realize that this is gender & doesn't explain the distribution of sexes >that we're discussing per se., but once I look outside Silliman's category >of "post-avant," contemporary American poetry starts to look a lot more >like a female-dominated art form. Is there a way we can fix this, by >tracing the sources of our own aesthetics back to more female modernists >and surrealists, & making those figures more prominent in the history of >avant-garde poetry? > >On the issue of patriarchy, I think we do indeed live in a patriarchal >society, and I think it's worth noting that a lot of women outside academia >support or buy into this system in important ways. Of course I agree that >patriarchy is bad bad bad, but it might also be worth looking at why it's >so seductive for these women to continue to invest in that system, because >we're not going to create change without their help, and that's a class >issue in itself. > >Tim > > > > > > >Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 00:14:04 -0800 >From: Jeffre Jullic >Subject: Re: Discrepancies > >I agree with Max that Noah's numbers are extremely >problematic and unreliable. > >In college, they used to talk about "Rocks for Jocks" >(geology courses dumbed down to get the sports >scholarship students through science requirements) and >--"Poets' Math." > >Noah's numbers, upon closer inspection, belie the >implied moral he draws from them, I believe. They may >show the ~opposite~ of what's being read into them. > >What they show is a "patriarchal society" where > >~over a quarter~ of the journals counted (8 out of 30) > either include male/female authors' names in equal >numbers or where there are more female names than >male. > >How insidiously patriarchal is over a quarter >egalitarian/female majority? > >And, if you accept, as I would, that a range of 54% >male/46% female to 57% male/43% female is ~quite good~ >for a patriarchal society (and that the standard error >of Noah's numbers alone may account for that >difference, since, as Anthony Robinson pointed out, >there is miscounting involved),--- then almost half >(43%) of the journals show equal numbers, more females >than males, or that narrow 55.5%-to-44.5% difference. > > >If, as some editors have been attesting, submissions >themselves are weighted toward about 70% male, then >journals are ~mis~-representative in doing better than >those realities. > >All that ~Affirmative Action~ asks, by law, is that a >workplace ~meet~ the distribution of the general >population, within any particular field. If women >are only 1% of the general population for, say, >butchers, then one percent hired ~satisfies~ >Affirmative Action. > >~Being and Nothingness~ defines "bad faith" as the >x-that-is-more-than-y: "the love that is more than >love"; the waiter who is more than a waiter. > >By trying to ~do better~ than a 70%/30% ratio that the >actual submissions consist of, things are entering >into The Action That Is ~More Affirmative Than~ >Affirmative Action. > >There are fields where the male/female-female/male >ratio differs. Pool halls are disproportionately >male. Manicure parlors are disproportionately female. > > >It may very well be the case that experimental poetry >is a game that most women are ~too smart~ to play. > >Or, as Mark pointed out, that most female first name >poets have gone over to "School of Quietude" journals. > > > >Regardless, attempts to reconstruct Noah's numbers by >checking on-line table of contents for the issues >involve show a very different picture. Noah and Sara >were (excluding translators, many of whom were female >but) counting ~every~ name in the table of contents, >and conflating poets with essayists, short story >writers, reviewers, and ---Dead White Males like >~Catullus~ and ~Tristan Tzara!~ whose moldering >antiquity places them in a completely separate >category, I would say, that doesn't represent some >sort of place-in-the-sun-stealing threat to ~anybody.~ > Within those different sub-groups, the imbalance for, >say, short story writers (at a glance) is vastly more >weighted toward males than for poets. This further >distorts the numbers. > > >When Max says, "Rather than counting the number of >poets, why not count the number of pages those poets' >work takes up? But then the question arises: why do so >much counting?",--- > >I'd take him one step further: why not count ~the >number of letters in the authors' names~ > >and whether male/female falls on odd/even pages? > >Unanalyzed, unsystematized, uncrunched numbers left in >and of themselves as though they were in scare quotes >show nothing. More impression-biassing to Noah's >presentation is the ~anecdote~ that he lays out at the >beginning ("my partner, the poet Sara Veglahn, had >perused it's pages for a while. . . . the first thing >she said was"). It's that that skews a narrative onto >those mute and arguable numbers, ---or leads the >un-statistics-minded to just glaze out entirely at >their cacaphonous jumble. (Excuse my cynicism, >please: "the first thing she said was",--- as if >Diotima herself had appeared at the end of Plato to >bring Socrates the truth!) The gratuitous framing of >these questions in heterodominant self-portraiture >does not add to their believability, for me. Taking a >tattooed War of The Sexes that may exist in your >apartment out onto the Poetics List is only a >re-inscribing of gender onto sex from the personal >sphere into the public. > >Who ever told you you were a man in the first place?! >(and so redundantly: "a man ( or as the particular >'man' that I am)") > > >Maybe because he's so busy counting out that wad of >fifties I threw on the bed, My Last Hustler can't find >even ~one~ male prostitute in those journals, Noah. > >(He only counts ~inches!~) > > > >. . . Which of the following, two, "equally good" poem >excerpts should not have been published in ~26: issue >B,~ on the basis that its author has a male name? > >1 > >Ears stoppered >sailing straight >through strait's >swift steering >away all the same > >Each death is a little valve > >2 > >scripted tolerance >compensators were not >summarized in the >final report > >rectangular volume object >had all faces in >it was supposed >to be all other sides > >What does the sex of an author ~signify~ in a dominant >style of writing that is, for the most part, based on >dispensing with all the biographical markers of the >author? > >To quote the poet Sara Veglahn's poem, "The lakes >unsafe . . .", from that same issue: > > "It is likely ~I~ will be lost" > >(my emphasis). Is the word "breast" ("breast wove w >winter-cure mustard) more female when Geraldine Monk >uses it, than when Valerie Coulton contaminates >~l'ecriture feminine~ by collaborating with Ed >Smallfield on the line "a year of breasts and >cigarettes", in the same issue? > >If there are questions here, the biggest question is: >what vestigial relevance to the reading of a poem does >author's sex, race, economic status, sexual >preference, or whatever have when those poems have >completely foreclosed all those identity politics? >("his or her asteroid" ---Hung Q. Tu, in the ~Aufgabe~ >that Noah counts) > > >Interestingly, ---and as paradoxical as it sounds--- >those numbers show a ~negative correlation~ between >the size of the journal and the number of ~both~ male >(-.80) and female (-.47) authors' names. > >That is, the fewer the number of authors there are in >a journal, men are only around 20% more likely to >appear, but women are almost 50% more likely to be >included. > > >There's a double-bind in Noah's "Unclear" category, >too. Where sex is not unclear because the author is >using initials, it's unclear because the first name is >~"ethnic"~ and not recognizably Western. > >So, ethnic identity actuals ~competes with~ sexual >parity in those numbers. If the authors didn't have >ethnic names, there'd be more women to count. > > >If there's a bean, I'll count it: > >Using the Eli Gordon approximation method (based >solely on first names, with numerous "Unclear"), the >on-line Fence mastheads since issue 3n2 would seem to >show the number of female poets included to be >steadily declining. > >6n1 10 F out of 38 poets = .26 >5n2 12 F out of 32 poets = .37 >5n1 16 F out of 48 poets = .33 >4n2 16 F out of 36 poets = .44 >4n1 21 F out of 41 poets = .51 >3n2 21 F out of 33 poets = .63 > >Horrors. > >WHAT HAS MAX WINTER DONE WITH REBECCA WOLFF, ANYWAY?! > >("Put it down. Put the phone down now." --- Timothy >Donnelly, "Accidental Species") > > >I find it very disturbing, after all the words I (or >any poet) have tried so carefully to choose in the >poems that I submit to journals, that I might be >rejected on the basis of the one, single word that I >did ~not~ choose but that my parents chose instead: my >first name. > > >(The scratch paper Excel spreadsheet I'm basing my >numerical analysis on can be double-checked at >http://jeffreyjullich.tripod.com/NUMBERS.xls.) > >Jeffre > > > >Tim Peterson >Journals Marketing Coordinator >The MIT Press >Five Cambridge Center >Cambridge, MA 02142-1493 > >phone: (617) 258-0595 >fax: (617) 258-5028 >http://mitpress.mit.edu/journals _________________________________________________________________ Find high-speed ‘net deals — comparison-shop your local providers here. https://broadband.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 12:37:57 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Winston Churchill's Parrot Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (it doesn't get better than this...) From: "owidnazo" Date: Thu Jan 22, 2004 11:38:53 AM US/Central To: ubuweb@yahoogroups.com Subject: [ubuweb] SOUND POETRY Reply-To: ubuweb@yahoogroups.com Dear Folks, Winston Churchill's Parrot still alive. Over 100 years old. Still talking. Your Friend, David ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 13:08:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Annie Finch Subject: Re: Hermaphrodite Poems, Anyone? Comments: To: olsonjk@delhi.edu In-Reply-To: <40100EDD.3F951254@delhi.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Kirby, these lines are all iambic pentameter. I don't think you'll get too far proving your avant credentials that way. --Annie At 12:56 PM -0500 1/22/04, Kirby Olson wrote: > > mIEKAL, I'm amazed that anybody would ask me for a poem. I haven't written > > poetry for about twenty years. I had some pieces in quietist >journals such as > > Partisan Review when I was very young, but since then have mostly >focused on > > essays. However, about two years ago I started writing poems >again. This list > > and the conversation with Kari Edwards (mostly backchannel) >haunted me for about > > six weeks. I planned to write a lengthy epic called The >Hermaphrodite, but these > > four lines are all that came. > > > > > > > > > > > > The Hermaphrodite > > > > > > > > Walking slowly along the icy road > > > > She thinks of her babyhood with the hippo father > > > > & swaddled in clothes how her clit like an elephant's trunk > > > > Would wander about the room searching for peanuts >> ___________________________________ Annie Finch http://www.users.muohio.edu/finchar English Department, Miami University, Ohio Care2 make the world greener! Help the planet each day! It's free and easy: http://www.Care2.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 11:40:58 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Weishaus Subject: Re: neanderthals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kirby: The on-line project I'm working on, "The Silence of Sasquatch," is about the liminal area between animals and humans, and this of course harks back to before the Paleolithic. The "gray area," from which we emerged. Or did we? http://web.pdx.edu/~pdx00282/Bigfoot/intro.htm Best, Joel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirby Olson" To: Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2004 10:25 AM Subject: Re: neanderthals > I was interested in this discussion of neanderthals. I think one thing that > might link a lot of these discussions is binaries and then the borderland > between. This is what the eco-critics are calling the liminal area between > genres, similar to the liminal area between different eco-systems. Hedgelines, > borders of forests, this sort of place tends to have more food than other areas > and is therefore very heavily populated if I understand what I've been reading. > > The area between men & women (hermaphrodites) -- tends to create extremely > fruitful discussion. > > Corso was extremely interested in liminal boundaries and often wrote about > creatures that go between. Frankenstein. Goth kids. This area of ambiguity is > a good area for poetry. What's settled is uninteresting, but what's unsettling > isn't. > > In his book Herald of the Autochthonic Spirit Corso has a three-page length poem > entitled, "In Praise of Neanderthal Man." > > In a birth old and horrendous > I heard in a basement in a dream > the birth-scream of mothers > bounce off the walls of sooty coves and bins > > and saw there white-gowned doctors > yanking goat-legg'd infants > from out torturous vulvas > > ................................................... > > 2 pgs. later, poem ends -- > > Know this about that hoary brutish > bow-legg'd miserable toiler > who to this day is deemed a stupid thing > unfit for survival > you who claim his seed died with him > nor ever did associate (much less copulate) > with such heir as Cro-Mag, son of bear > -- to you I say Neanderthal > himself knew to sing > inventor of the churinga > (first musical instrument) > able to make the air ring > I say to you you can separate > the yolk from the white of the egg > yet without the one > the other is none > -- so again unto you I say O thou bigot anthropology > deem not Sir Neanderthal a stupid thing > all milk and no cream > in his time > throughout the world > he was philosoph supreme > > > > I don't know whether this creature lived under a matriarchy or a patriarchy -- as > Mark said last evening these systems are not usually strictly dichotomous. Corso > himself used to talk about the he-she (to my shame he considered me to be one) as > the course of the future. > > As for the stupid bigot anthropology -- most anthropologists consider the early > work of Gimbutas to be sound, but the later work to be quite suspect. What's > really suspect is the new age and 70s feminist appropriation of that work. We > tend to put things into categories. Matriarchal/patriarchal. Bachofen did very > good work for his time -- he was cited by Engels, Nietzsche, and later by > Bataille, Klossowski and many many others. He's the foundation of matriarchal > myth theory in our time. He sees matriarchy as based on desire, and patriarchy > as based on principles. He's mostly writing about the Greeks. I don't think he > touches upon Turkish symbolsm. He deals with Roman funeral statuary. He's very > suggestive and poetic writer. But poetry is what's outside of categories, or > moves between them -- or somehow unsettles our categories, and causes shifts, or > deterritorializes. Bachofen is very suggestive in this way, which is why his > work is still alive and in print. He teases open things that can only be > half-seen and almost makes sense of them. In this sense the better theorists and > poets have something in common. There's an area between principles and pure > empiricism that is shifting and curious. Neanderthals did have principles. They > buried their dead. > > How simple were Neanderthals -- Corso writes -- > > Yet unlike their brain-sucking forebears > and the soon to come Alpine eater of bears > they bound their dead with beast gut > from feet to head > lest the ghost escape > (first record of magic date) > and buried them beneath the ground > upon which they slept and ate > > (pp. 43-45 -- Herald of the Autochthonic Spirit -- Corso) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 11:52:11 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Larsen Subject: Re: Hermaphrodite Poems, Anyone? In-Reply-To: <40100EDD.3F951254@delhi.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Now hold up. This, Kirby Olson, is plain ugly. The poem, the post, all of it. You are *beneath notice* LRSN At 12:56 PM 1/22/04 -0500, Kirby Olson wrote: > > mIEKAL, I'm amazed that anybody would ask me for a poem. I haven't written > > poetry for about twenty years. I had some pieces in quietist journals > such as > > Partisan Review when I was very young, but since then have mostly > focused on > > essays. However, about two years ago I started writing poems > again. This list > > and the conversation with Kari Edwards (mostly backchannel) haunted me > for about > > six weeks. I planned to write a lengthy epic called The Hermaphrodite, > but these > > four lines are all that came. > > > > > > > > > > > > The Hermaphrodite > > > > > > > > Walking slowly along the icy road > > > > She thinks of her babyhood with the hippo father > > > > & swaddled in clothes how her clit like an elephant's trunk > > > > Would wander about the room searching for peanuts >> ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 12:37:22 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Hadbawnik Subject: Announcing: Mytili Jagannathan's ACTS on Habenicht Press In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20040122114501.02e69420@socrates.berkeley.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The latest book on habenicht press, Philly poet Mytili Jagannathan's ACTS, is now available for ordering. Please visit www.habenichtpress.com for more information, also for information on the spring season of a reading series that features poets/writers including Micah Ballard, Ryan Newton, Brent Cunningham, Karen Yamashita, David Larson, Rodney Koeneke, James Meetze, and Sarah Rosenthal. Mytili Jagannathan lives in Philadelphia, where she has been actively involved in the community arts work of the Asian Arts Initiative over the past five years. Her poems have appeared in Combo, Interlope, XConnect, Salt, Mirage#4/Period[ical], Rattapallax, and Xcp: Cross-Cultural Poetics. She is the recipient of an Emerging Artist grant from the Leeway Foundation (2001), and a Pew Fellowship in the Arts (2002). Links: http://www.pewarts.org/2002/jagannathan/ http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/xconnect/v6/i3/g/jaganna than1.html http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/xconnect/v6/i3/g/jaganna than1a.html http://poetry.about.com/library/weekly/museletters /blmuse47.htm (brief review of collaborative screening/performance with Jeff Loo and Quinn Eli) Habenicht Press is a small, independent, chapbook-series press that presents new work by emerging poets and previously unpublished gems by established poets. Its first two chapbooks are Curses and Other Love Poems by Sarah Peters and The Ones I Used To Laugh With - A Haibun Journal by Diane di Prima. The press is edited and published by David Hadbawnik, a poet living in San Francisco. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 15:42:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetry Project Subject: Events at the Poetry Project 1/26-1/28 Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable *NEWS* The Poetry Project can now accept credit card payments! Now you can purchase workshop registration, pay for membership and Newsletter subscriptions, give insanely generous donations, or order books, all online= . This new technology is all possible via PayPal: http://www.paypal.com. Just enter our email address to send money: info@poetryproject.com. * Monday, January 26 Talk Series: Kazim Ali, =B3Instruction Piece: Yoko Ono=B9s New Relevance in Post-9/11 America=B2 Yoko Ono's artwork privileges the viewer=B9s physical, intellectual, emotional, and conceptual response to sound, language, experience, and idea= . A closer examination of her interdisciplinary work yields new ideas about how to live in this New World Order. Kazim Ali is a writer and performer based in the Hudson Valley. He teaches literature and writing at the Culinary Institute of America and is a founding member of the Cocoon Modern Dance Company. [8:00 pm] Wednesday, January 28 An 80th Birthday Celebration for Harvey Shapiro Harvey Shapiro was born in Chicago in 1924 and raised in New York. His firs= t book, The Eye, was published by Alan Swallow in 1953, and nine others have followed since, including, most recently, How Charlie Shavers Died and Othe= r Poems (Wesleyan, 2001). His other publishers include Sun and Hanging Loose Press. Shapiro worked as a journalist for The New Yorker and Commentary, among others, and then served as an editor for many years with The New York Times. He was editor in chief of the Times Book Review from 1975 to 1983. He has also taught workshops at Yale and Columbia. He edited Poets of World War II for The Library of America, published last spring. Tonight=B9s party t= o celebrate his 80th birthday with include readings by Donna Brook, William Corbett, Norman Finkelstein, Kimiko Hahn, Robert Hershon, Michael Heller, Phillip Lopate, Geoffrey O'Brien, Hugh Seidman, Roger Shattuck, Bill Zavatsky, and Shapiro himself. With a reception to follow in the Parish Hall. [8:00 pm] * The Poetry Project is located at St. Mark's Church-in-the-Bowery 131 East 10th Street at Second Avenue New York City 10003 Trains: 6, F, N, R, and L. info@poetryproject.com www.poetryproject.com Admission is $8, $7 for students/seniors and $5 for members (though now those who take out a membership at $85 or higher will get in free to all regular readings). We are wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. For more info call 212-674-0910. * ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 13:11:34 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joseph Thomas Subject: Experimental Latino/a Poets In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii List-- Can anyone point me to useful a bibliography (annotated or otherwise) or online resource listing major experimental latino/a poets? Thanks, Joseph __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 09:06:51 +1100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alison Croggon Subject: Re: gender and movement redefinitions In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 23/1/04 3:47 AM, "Annie Finch" wrote: > For example, "Modernism," pretty much defined in opposition to the > female voice from inception ("this ends the idea of poetry for > ladies!" "Hold on to your hats, ladies!' Etc!) is already beginning > to be redefined, by scholars such as Suzanne Clark. It's been ages since I read it, but how does the work of Gilbert and Gubar fit in there? (No Man's Land, The Madwoman in the Attic, &c). And I have this great anthology edited by Bonnie Kime Scott called The Gender of Modernism which, drawing on that work, argues that modernism was inflected by theories and questioning of gender from the beginning, some of them ignored because they were heavily coded to pass various censors of self and society. The problem on the whole is not the movements in themselves but their later critical rendering, and the editing out of certain parts of it in favour of those monologic (male) manifesti. "Modernism as caught in the net of gender is polyphonic, mobile, interactive, sexually charged; it has wide appeal, constituting a historic shift in parameters." Best A Alison Croggon Editor, Masthead http://www.masthead.net.au Home page http://www.alisoncroggon.com Blog http://alisoncroggon.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 18:22:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: gender and movement redefinitions In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >On 23/1/04 3:47 AM, "Annie Finch" wrote: > >> For example, "Modernism," pretty much defined in opposition to the >> female voice from inception ("this ends the idea of poetry for >> ladies!" "Hold on to your hats, ladies!' Etc!) is already beginning > > to be redefined, by scholars such as Suzanne Clark. What? Well, I once heard, at a Japanese restaurant, Kenner say that there were no women Modernists. Later he said that V. Woolf was not a Modernist, and I can see arguments both ways on that. But I used to lament that while Modernist writing was done by a lot of women (Stein, H.D., Moore, many more), and that any Modernist anthology would be packed with women's writing, Barnard, Niedecker, Loy, Barnes) , have a look at the Donald Allen anthology. -- George Bowering Home cooked Ontario lad. 303 Fielden Ave. Port Colborne. ON, L3K 4T5 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 19:35:25 -0500 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: Gender.. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ladies & Gents either/or/& 'member all po herstory veers to h/r/s A.....gender.. drn.... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 20:26:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Zimmerman Subject: Re: Hermaphrodite Poems, Anyone? MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Iambic pentameter? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Annie Finch" To: Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2004 1:08 PM Subject: Re: Hermaphrodite Poems, Anyone? > Kirby, these lines are all iambic pentameter. I don't think you'll > get too far proving your avant credentials that way. > --Annie > > At 12:56 PM -0500 1/22/04, Kirby Olson wrote: > > > mIEKAL, I'm amazed that anybody would ask me for a poem. I haven't written > > > poetry for about twenty years. I had some pieces in quietist > >journals such as > > > Partisan Review when I was very young, but since then have mostly > >focused on > > > essays. However, about two years ago I started writing poems > >again. This list > > > and the conversation with Kari Edwards (mostly backchannel) > >haunted me for about > > > six weeks. I planned to write a lengthy epic called The > >Hermaphrodite, but these > > > four lines are all that came. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Hermaphrodite > > > > > > > > > > Walking slowly along the icy road > > > > > She thinks of her babyhood with the hippo father > > > > > & swaddled in clothes how her clit like an elephant's trunk > > > > > Would wander about the room searching for peanuts >> > > > ___________________________________ > Annie Finch > http://www.users.muohio.edu/finchar > English Department, Miami University, Ohio > > > Care2 make the world greener! > Help the planet each day! It's free and easy: > http://www.Care2.com/ > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 17:49:27 -0800 Reply-To: antrobin@clipper.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anthony Robinson Subject: Re: Hermaphrodite Poems, Anyone? In-Reply-To: <00b101c3e14f$f4c011c0$6d94c044@MULDER> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Uh, yeah...that's what I said. --- Daniel Zimmerman wrote: > Iambic pentameter? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Annie Finch" > > Kirby, these lines are all iambic pentameter. I > don't think you'll > > get too far proving your avant credentials that > way. > > --Annie __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 22:49:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mmagee@DEPT.ENGLISH.UPENN.EDU Subject: "My Angie Dickinson" at 122 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi all, Just letting you know that my ongoing serial poem "My Angie Dickinson" now includes 122 poems, a few of the latest are included below. We're running a bit behind on accompanying photographs but you can see all the recent poems here: http://myangiedickinson.blogspot.com -m. #117 “White Trash” is a thing with Rickles –– Totally –– inert –– Just left her hand there, didn’t do –– a –– “Jimmy, you dirty rat,” –– Her skinny legs Could use “The Sun” –– A rag-tag underground au pair –– Matchmaker! Goldigger! –– under “a nest” –– Of anesthesia-fried hair –– #119 The Space Girls –– Add –– to basket –– The sexdroid episodes Ruptured –– the very fabric –– Men in panties –– Convert –– lymph nodes –– Space opera –– “light as” –– “a sneeze” –– A young Japanese boy who tells –– The tiny little dresses –– The Unavoidable –– Group picture, Telly Savalas! Is Having –– a tough time –– Scaring the locals? Scoring with girls? We operate –– “in space” –– #122 A bushel of apples is yet –– To happen –– A conch to spare (explode) Proximity is certainty –– Atoms are –– What –– slips –– Between –– the book emerging –– And alphabetical cinch –– O unrepentant romeo! You can pay by the inch! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 20:33:54 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: Conservative group quietly drops plans for poll In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Conservative group quietly drops plans for poll Christopher Curtis, Gay.com / PlanetOut.com Network Thursday, January 22, 2004 / 05:40 PM The conservative American Family Association (AFA) said it will not take the results of its marriage poll to Capitol Hill after a majority of respondents favored same-sex marriage, according to a Thursday report in Wired News. The AFA posted the poll online in December with a stated intention to forward the results to Congress as evidence of U.S. opposition to same-sex marriage. Respondents could select one of these three choices: "I favor legalization of homosexual marriage." "I favor a 'civil union' with the full benefits of marriage except for the name." "I oppose legalization of homosexual marriage and 'civil unions.'" But as of press time, the numbers support same-sex unions: Sixty percent favored same-sex marriage and 8 percent favored civil unions, leaving just 32 percent opposed. AFA representative Buddy Smith complained to Wired News: "It just so happens that homosexual activist groups around the country got a hold of the poll -- it was forwarded to them -- and they decided to have a little fun, and turn their organizations around the country (on to) the poll to try to cause it to represent something other than what we wanted it to. And so far, they succeeded with that." Matt Foreman, the Executive Director of the National Gay and Lesbian Taskforce was dumbfounded. "The abject hypocrisy of these people never ceases to amaze me," he exclaimed. "They constantly manipulate facts, and when things don't work out as they want, they run to mama and whine." On Jan. 6, the Gay.com/PlanetOut.com Network discussed the AFA poll with expert Bob Witeck, who said that since it was not a scientific survey, its results could not be considered meaningful data. According to Witeck, legitimate polls show support for gay marriage somewhere between 40 to 50 percent -- and growing. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 00:02:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: yuckety yuckety poot yuckety poot MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII yuckety yuckety poot yuckety poot i was watching a rerun of rosanne and she said, dinner's ready guys, yuckety yuckety poot yuckety poot. the fascist bush was giving a speech about killing everyone and he said, they're unamerican, yuckety yuckety poot yuckety poot. but over the holidays i heard jingle bells jingle bells yuckety yuckety poot yuckety poot and this morning my tiny niece sang to me mary had a little yuckety yuckety poot yuckety poot. i went to church and the choir sang and the preacher said, onward christian soldiers, marching as to yuckety yuckety poot yuckety poot. i turned on the radio and heard they declared war on belgium, in belgium they're yuckety yuckety poot yuckety poot. later azure said to me, i'm reading foucault, he talks about the eighteenth century and its yuckety yuckety poot yuckety poot. this was almost too much for me as i was writing a piece about cyberterror and yuckety yuckety poot yuckety poot. _ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 00:05:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: comment on neanderthal + history text MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Again, re: Neanderthal - I find these approaches specism to the extent that they might not at all have been "tragic"; there is still debate in fact as to their mixing with other hominid populations. As far as their culture being stagnant - there is hardly enough evidence, and how does one judge a culture 'stagnant'? Were the Tasmanian native peoples stagnant because they showed little development over thousands of years in material culture? Hardly. This is also a judgement based on a misplaced concept of progress - as if cultures must 'grow,' decline, etc. We absolutely _must_ recognize species equivalence if the world is to survive in its richness. There are no weeds, no vermin, no necessarily doomed species, no tragic species, no primitive species, none living beyond their time. Live with them. - Alan, a weed ________________________________ history. history. history ftp pahistoricx.com ls -la .profile in history rm .profile in history ls ftp pahistoricx.com rm .profile in history ls ftp pahistoricx exit ls ls .b* h less .bashrc now less .profile in history ls cd C:\program-files cd .. dir p* ls p** exit in history exit h ls exit exit pwd cd fsf ls edit .bashrc rm .profile in history ls now s ls cd /image ls wc historic ftp pahistoricx exit pwd tail historic grep transubstantiate * > C:\historiography cd .. more historiography ls exit exit ftp pahistoricx exit man xpm lcd image cd image ftp pahistoricx.com p xit exit h now p now p now p now f exit _ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 21:50:09 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: Conservative group quietly drops plans for poll In-Reply-To: <59E208EC-4D5D-11D8-B132-003065AC6058@sonic.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Buddy Smith's explanation is hilarious. Same kind of folks d'USA seem not want to have direct elections in Iraq - might not "get the results they want." Now I remember Florida - thank goodness the Supreme Court stepped in to get the results "they wanted." Now with a little bit of anonymous "software corruption" Prez B will be with us another 4. We need a correction here. Hope the old American backbone is getting up, ready to fight, resist, insist, etc. Thanks for posting, S on 1/22/04 8:33 PM, kari edwards at terra1@SONIC.NET wrote: > Conservative group quietly drops plans for poll > Christopher Curtis, Gay.com / PlanetOut.com Network > Thursday, January 22, 2004 / 05:40 PM > > > The conservative American Family Association (AFA) said it will not > take the results of its marriage poll to Capitol Hill after a majority > of respondents favored same-sex marriage, according to a Thursday > report in Wired News. > > The AFA posted the poll online in December with a stated intention to > forward the results to Congress as evidence of U.S. opposition to > same-sex marriage. Respondents could select one of these three choices: > > "I favor legalization of homosexual marriage." > > "I favor a 'civil union' with the full benefits of marriage except for > the name." > > "I oppose legalization of homosexual marriage and 'civil unions.'" > > But as of press time, the numbers support same-sex unions: Sixty > percent favored same-sex marriage and 8 percent favored civil unions, > leaving just 32 percent opposed. > > AFA representative Buddy Smith complained to Wired News: "It just so > happens that homosexual activist groups around the country got a hold > of the poll -- it was forwarded to them -- and they decided to have a > little fun, and turn their organizations around the country (on to) the > poll to try to cause it to represent something other than what we > wanted it to. And so far, they succeeded with that." > > Matt Foreman, the Executive Director of the National Gay and Lesbian > Taskforce was dumbfounded. "The abject hypocrisy of these people never > ceases to amaze me," he exclaimed. > > "They constantly manipulate facts, and when things don't work out as > they want, they run to mama and whine." > > On Jan. 6, the Gay.com/PlanetOut.com Network discussed the AFA poll > with expert Bob Witeck, who said that since it was not a scientific > survey, its results could not be considered meaningful data. According > to Witeck, legitimate polls show support for gay marriage somewhere > between 40 to 50 percent -- and growing. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 22:10:24 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rodney K Subject: Report on Poet's Theater Jamboree 2004 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A quick note to encourage any of you in San Francisco this Friday to come to the second night of Small Press Traffic’s Poet’s Theater Jamboree. Last Friday’s opener featured a terrific line-up of short plays, each of which crossed the wires between poetry & theater in ways that made the language spark. Laynie Brown’s “Zoanthella and Zoanthina: Tribulations of the Larval Anemone Princess” gave the exotic argot of marine biology a lush late-Victorian twist to question the biological distinctions between sexes and genders, along with the reproductive roles that allegedly come with each. The dreamy costumes by Susan Sanford made this play hands down the most visually striking of the night. kari edwards’s “An Opera: Gertrude Stein in C*” brought out the purely sonic delights of everyday language with the help of the massive Gertrude Stein Vocal Ensemble. Their cross-current of repeated lines, “conducted” by Maggie Zurawski tapping members on the shoulder with a stick while intoning the words “Gertrude Stein,” showed with wit and skill how relevant Stein’s legacy is to the present. And how yesteryear’s avant garde can triumph to become the chamber music of the future. Brent Cunningham introduced a “lecture” by one Professor Daniil Kharms, a sputtering and hilariously unreliable expert on six false anecdotes from the life of Pushkin. His send-up of the lecture podium, where a glitch with the slides forced the Professor to conflate anecdotes from his own life with those of Pushkin’s, brought to mind Cunningham’s readings earlier this year, where the amphitheater and the poetry lectern—two other public spaces that ritualize the privacies of inwardness and sincerity —get an equally brilliant skewering. Seek Brent’s work out—he’s the Obi Wan Kenobi of contemporary satire. My own “Road to Inner Houston” I’ll pass over in silence, except to say that poets Del Ray Cross and Sean Finney, along with Alexander Lewis and Stephen Jacob from San Francisco’s foolsFURY theater company, did an outstanding job of staging the thing. The highlight of the night had to be Kevin Killian’s valiant on-the-fly world premiere production of Jack Spicer’s “Troilus.” Even in this excerpted form, Spicer’s depth and ambition in retrofitting the Troilus & Cressida story to the Cold War psycho-sexual anxieties of 1955 came through. I especially admired how Spicer went beyond a glib condemnation of war (though it’s certainly that) to probe the eroticism of Death—the eternal, undifferentiated, oceanic God-like One—that’s both its cause and its product. Can’t wait to see the entire play in print. Don’t miss tomorrow’s performance at the CCA’s San Francisco campus! See the www.sptraffic.org for program & details. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 01:02:15 -0500 Reply-To: Millie Niss on eathlink Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Millie Niss on eathlink Subject: Re: Experimental Latino/a Poets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't know a resource, but Edwin Torres comes to mind immediately as an experimental Latino poet. I also love the work of Martin Espada (sp?) buyt he isn't experimental. I'm sure the list can come up with many more names. Right now I have some in mind that I can't actually remmeber the names of.... Millie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joseph Thomas" To: Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2004 4:11 PM Subject: Experimental Latino/a Poets > List-- > > Can anyone point me to useful a bibliography > (annotated or otherwise) or online resource listing > major experimental latino/a poets? > > Thanks, > Joseph > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! > http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 22:15:53 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rodney K Subject: Addendum: Report on Poet's Theater MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I really should add that the cast for Spicer's "Troilus" did an amazing job on very short notice. Thank you Kevin Killian, WAyne Smith, David Larsen, Tiff Dressen, Taylor Brady, John Sakkis, Andrew Joron, Garrett Caples and Jocelyn Saidenberg for bringing a great piece of writing to life. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 02:34:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Essential software for Windows - for codework/'experimental' work/ etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Essential software for Windows - for codework/'experimental' work/ etc. Yesterday we were at the LinuxWorld convention; at the Free Software Foundation booth I bought Dan Hagerty, Melissa Weisshaus, and Eli Zaretskii, Gnu Software for MS-Windows and MS-DOS. This book, published in 2001, contains a cdrom developed for MS-Windows up through NT. I asked if the software would work on WinXP; the people at the booth didn't know. Well, it does. It works for Win3.0 up through current. And it's amazing - a close-to-full suite of linux commands that works in Windows. This isn't linux; it's a port. Commands and programs include emacs, fold, cut, od, split, csplit, mv, cp, ls, grep, sed, awk, egrep, gawk, cat, tac, a version of vi, gimp, etc. Two shells are also included; I'm using bash in Windows! There is enough material here for a full programming and text writing/development environment. It's incredible - something I've been looking for, for a long time. If you are working with codework, writing experimental work, I think these programs are essential. There are some tricks - if you do install, back-channel me, and I can tell you how, for example, to configure bash (which you'll want to do). I'm now working on a selection of my work for publication; the following was done entirely in the DOS shell. Some other packages - mutt, shutdown (it works, and weirdly!), chmod, chown, chgrp, Groff, RCS, man, make, more, less, shell utilities, TEX, head, tail, uniq, DJGPP/GCC (compiler) and other programming tools. (All the flags work too.) Again - these are unix/linux commands that run in the terminal window of windows _without_ changing the operating system or isolating a directory. I can type 'shell' (thanks to a shell.bat I set up) anywhere in Windows and go immediately to a linux shell emulation. The result of all of this - I can work back and forth between my linux desktop and my WinXP OS without changing formats, etc. The book and disk costs $35 - well worth it. _________________________________________________ editing internet text section by section for a book p p ls exit h p p p ls ls edit b.txt mv b.txt sb.txt wc sb.txt edit c.txt mv c.txt sc.txt wc sc.txt ls wc d.txt edit d.txt wc d.txt mv d.txt sd.txt edit e.txt wc e.txt mv e.txt se.txt ls edit f.txt mv f.txt fs.txt; edit g.txt mv g.txt gs.txt; edit h.txt mv h.txt sh.txt; mv gs.txt sg.txt; ls mv fs.txt sf.txt ls mv i.txt si.txt; edit si.txt wc s?.txt p ls edit j.txt mv j.txt sj.txt edit k.txt mv k.txt sk.txt; edit l.txt mv l.txt sl.txt; edit m.txt mv m.txt sm.txt; edit n.txt rm n.txt; mv o.txt so.txt; edit so.txt mv p.txt sp.txt; edit sp.txt mv q.txt sq.txt; edit sq.txt mv r.txt sr.txt; edit sr.txt ls mv s.txt ss.txt edit ss.txt wc ss.txt mv t.txt st.txt edit st.txt mv u.txt su.txt; edit su.txt rm su.txt ls wc s?.txt ls cat s?.txt > second.txt wc second.txt edit second.txt ls rm s?.txt ls wc first.txt second.txt cd /image ls ls /w ls ls | more ls ?? ls ?? > /salt/twoletter.txt cp a? /salt/ cp b? /salt/ cd /salt ls edit twoletter.txt mv ah sah; edit sah p ls h > zz __ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 08:26:27 -0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "david.bircumshaw" Subject: Re: comment on neanderthal + history text MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Without a Neanderthal to discuss this with, Alan, we are all indulging in speculation. You quite rightly said that very little is known about the Neanderthals. I do, though, find labels like 'specist' troubling, there's quite enough substitution of thought by applying post-it-note terminology already. All I said was that the evidence that is there suggests that Neanderthal tool-culture was stereotyped and I'd hesitantly posit this was a result of the harsh material environments they lived in, not as a result of some kind of innate inferiority to homo sapiens. But that, too, is speculation. Your plea for the recognition of difference, of the otherness of fauna and flora, is well said, but I don't think a word like 'specism' helps: if I contract a virus and take medication to overcome it then undoubtedly I am destroying other living entities, the invasive viri themselves. I exterminate them to save myself. Is that being 'specist'? Best Dave David Bircumshaw Spectare's Web, A Chide's Alphabet & Painting Without Numbers http://www.chidesalphabet.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Sondheim" To: Sent: Friday, January 23, 2004 5:05 AM Subject: comment on neanderthal + history text Again, re: Neanderthal - I find these approaches specism to the extent that they might not at all have been "tragic"; there is still debate in fact as to their mixing with other hominid populations. As far as their culture being stagnant - there is hardly enough evidence, and how does one judge a culture 'stagnant'? Were the Tasmanian native peoples stagnant because they showed little development over thousands of years in material culture? Hardly. This is also a judgement based on a misplaced concept of progress - as if cultures must 'grow,' decline, etc. We absolutely _must_ recognize species equivalence if the world is to survive in its richness. There are no weeds, no vermin, no necessarily doomed species, no tragic species, no primitive species, none living beyond their time. Live with them. - Alan, a weed ________________________________ history. history. history ftp pahistoricx.com ls -la .profile in history rm .profile in history ls ftp pahistoricx.com rm .profile in history ls ftp pahistoricx exit ls ls .b* h less .bashrc now less .profile in history ls cd C:\program-files cd .. dir p* ls p** exit in history exit h ls exit exit pwd cd fsf ls edit .bashrc rm .profile in history ls now s ls cd /image ls wc historic ftp pahistoricx exit pwd tail historic grep transubstantiate * > C:\historiography cd .. more historiography ls exit exit ftp pahistoricx exit man xpm lcd image cd image ftp pahistoricx.com p xit exit h now p now p now p now f exit _ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 06:24:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Annie Finch Subject: Re: Hermaphrodite Poems, Anyone? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Umm.. yup... 1st line: iambic pentameter, headless , anapest in third foot. 2nd line iambic pentameter, anapests in second and third feet, extra-syllable ending. 3rd line: iambic pentameter, 4 anapestic substitutions in last 4 ft (heavily anapestic but could fit in easily in any post-mid-19th c. iambic pentameter context) 4th line: iambic pentameter, anapest in second foot, trochee in fourth foot (after a caesura, as is best to keep beat), extra-syllable ending. is this what you mean? They are all fairly standard modulations...nothing very wild. Annie At 8:26 PM -0500 1/22/04, Daniel Zimmerman wrote: >Iambic pentameter? > > > > > > > The Hermaphrodite > > > > > > > > > > > > Walking slowly along the icy road > > > > > > She thinks of her babyhood with the hippo father > > > > > > & swaddled in clothes how her clit like an elephant's trunk > > > > > > Would wander about the room searching for peanuts >> > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 21:24:56 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ben Basan Subject: Re: If you have a jones to hear the noise... In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Or even the transcript of your talk?? -Ben > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] > On Behalf Of mIEKAL aND > Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2004 1:58 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: If you have a jones to hear the noise... > > I jones for a steady diet of noise but I live in the well-grazed > pastures of Wisconsin. Will there be some mp3s online? > > mIEKAL > > > On Wednesday, January 21, 2004, at 06:45 AM, Kazim Ali wrote: > > > Kazim Ali > > "Instruction Piece: The New Relevance of Yoko Ono" > > Monday January 26, 8pm > > Poetry Project at St Mark's Church > > New York City > > > > check www.poetryproject.com for all the details. > > > > PS Yes I *will* be singing the "Mulberry" song and > > perhaps there will be a performance or too if you're > > lucky and prompt. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 08:26:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Zimmerman Subject: Re: Hermaphrodite Poems, Anyone? MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Annie, I originally thought your scansion a sardonic dig at Kirby's sense of epic meter, but this sounds like special pleading akin to Bush's State of the Union characterization of "weapons of mass destruction-related program activities." Would a couple extra sprodees finally scotch his 'iambic pentameter' beyond recognition? How about the substitution of three or four back-to-back caesurae somewhere in the third line (for the reader to catch his breath)? Would that deep-six his mini-Titanic? Let's hope Kirby weighs in on this. ;~) Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Annie Finch" To: Sent: Friday, January 23, 2004 6:24 AM Subject: Re: Hermaphrodite Poems, Anyone? > Umm.. yup... > > 1st line: iambic pentameter, headless , anapest in third foot. > 2nd line iambic pentameter, anapests in second and third feet, > extra-syllable ending. > 3rd line: iambic pentameter, 4 anapestic substitutions in last 4 ft > (heavily anapestic but could fit in easily in any post-mid-19th c. > iambic pentameter context) > 4th line: iambic pentameter, anapest in second foot, trochee in > fourth foot (after a caesura, as is best to keep beat), > extra-syllable ending. > > is this what you mean? They are all fairly standard > modulations...nothing very wild. > > Annie > > > At 8:26 PM -0500 1/22/04, Daniel Zimmerman wrote: > >Iambic pentameter? > > > > > > > > > The Hermaphrodite > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Walking slowly along the icy road > > > > > > > She thinks of her babyhood with the hippo father > > > > > > > & swaddled in clothes how her clit like an elephant's trunk > > > > > > > Would wander about the room searching for peanuts >> > > > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 08:03:09 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Experimental Latino/a Poets In-Reply-To: <00bd01c3e176$7457fda0$443b4b43@ibmfb1014a> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" try the index of alfred arteaga's book, chicano poetics, as a starting place. At 1:02 AM -0500 1/23/04, Millie Niss on eathlink wrote: >I don't know a resource, but Edwin Torres comes to mind immediately as an >experimental Latino poet. I also love the work of Martin Espada (sp?) buyt >he isn't experimental. I'm sure the list can come up with many more names. >Right now I have some in mind that I can't actually remmeber the names >of.... > >Millie >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Joseph Thomas" >To: >Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2004 4:11 PM >Subject: Experimental Latino/a Poets > > >> List-- >> >> Can anyone point me to useful a bibliography >> (annotated or otherwise) or online resource listing >> major experimental latino/a poets? >> >> Thanks, >> Joseph >> >> __________________________________ >> Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! > > http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ -- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 10:02:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Orange Subject: Derek Bailey - Poetry and Playing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hello all, this just came across the weekly email of new releases sent out by downtown music gallery in NYC. for purchasing info go to http://www.dtmgallery.com t. --------------------- DEREK BAILEY - Poetry and Playing (Paratactile 1116) Derek plays guitar and reads from the poems of Steve Dalachinsky (downtown wordsmith & scene-maker), Lyn Hajinian and Peter Riley. Duration 27 minutes. Utterly charming and certainly a novel idea. UK CD for $17 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 10:37:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron McCollough Subject: CBS & MoveOndotOrg MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello All- I thought some might find the following worthy of attention. I helped = pay for this ad (albeit in a very small way) as many of you may have, = and it should run. =20 Best- Aaron >>Subject: The ad CBS will not air Dear friend, During this year's Super Bowl, you'll see ads sponsored by beer = companies, tobacco companies, and the Bush White House. But you won't = see the winning ad in MoveOn.org Voter Fund's Bush in 30 Seconds ad = contest. CBS refuses to air it. Meanwhile, the White House and Congressional Republicans are on the = verge of signing into law a deal which Senator John McCain (R-AZ) says = is custom-tailored for CBS and Fox, allowing the two networks to grow = much bigger. CBS lobbied hard for this rule change; MoveOn.org members = across the country lobbied against it; and now the MoveOn.org ad has = been rejected while the White House ad will be played. It looks an = awful lot like CBS is playing politics with the right to free speech. Of course, this is bigger than just the MoveOn.org Voter Fund. People = for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) submitted an ad that was = also rejected. We need to let CBS know that this practice of = arbitrarily turning down ads that may be "controversial" - especially if = they're controversial simply because they take on the President - just = isn't right. To watch the ad that CBS won't air and sign the petition to CBS to run = these ads, go to: http://www.moveon.org/cbs/ad/ MoveOn.org will deliver the petition by email directly to CBS = headquarters. Thanks. ****************************************************** Aaron McCollough English Department University of Michigan "If you have any music that may not be heard, to't again" -- Othello 3.1=20 ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 07:45:46 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Weishaus Subject: Re: comment on neanderthal + history text MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bravo! -Joel, a Sasquatch. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Sondheim" To: Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2004 9:05 PM Subject: comment on neanderthal + history text > Again, re: Neanderthal - I find these approaches specism to the extent > that they might not at all have been "tragic"; there is still debate in > fact as to their mixing with other hominid populations. As far as their > culture being stagnant - there is hardly enough evidence, and how does one > judge a culture 'stagnant'? Were the Tasmanian native peoples stagnant > because they showed little development over thousands of years in material > culture? Hardly. This is also a judgement based on a misplaced concept of > progress - as if cultures must 'grow,' decline, etc. > > We absolutely _must_ recognize species equivalence if the world is to > survive in its richness. There are no weeds, no vermin, no necessarily > doomed species, no tragic species, no primitive species, none living > beyond their time. Live with them. > > - Alan, a weed > > > > ________________________________ > > > history. > > history. history ftp pahistoricx.com ls -la .profile in history rm > .profile in history ls ftp pahistoricx.com rm .profile in history ls ftp > pahistoricx exit ls ls .b* h less .bashrc now less .profile in history ls > cd C:\program-files cd .. dir p* ls p** exit in history exit h ls exit > exit pwd cd fsf ls edit .bashrc rm .profile in history ls now s ls cd > /image ls wc historic ftp pahistoricx exit pwd tail historic grep > transubstantiate * > C:\historiography cd .. more historiography ls exit > exit ftp pahistoricx exit man xpm lcd image cd image ftp pahistoricx.com p > xit exit h now p now p now p now f exit > > > _ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 10:47:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tim Peterson Subject: Re: Hermaphrodite poems, anyone? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I suppose if you're a hammer, then everything looks like a nail, but I don't see much iambic pentameter in these lines either. I see a variable meter that changes with each line. 1: trochaic pentameter with a dactylic variation in the second foot 2: a barely iambic hexameter that could just as easily be called trochaic. One iambic foot, one anapest, another iambic foot, a phyrric foot, and two trochees. 3: anapestic pentameter, but it begins with an iamb 4: another barely iambic line, pentameter: iamb, anapest, iamb, caesura, dactyl, trochee Meter is an imperfect way of transcribing sound in poetry, not an ideal system from which we generate poems like automatons. Tim Umm.. yup... 1st line: iambic pentameter, headless , anapest in third foot. 2nd line iambic pentameter, anapests in second and third feet, extra-syllable ending. 3rd line: iambic pentameter, 4 anapestic substitutions in last 4 ft (heavily anapestic but could fit in easily in any post-mid-19th c. iambic pentameter context) 4th line: iambic pentameter, anapest in second foot, trochee in fourth foot (after a caesura, as is best to keep beat), extra-syllable ending. is this what you mean? They are all fairly standard modulations...nothing very wild. Annie At 8:26 PM -0500 1/22/04, Daniel Zimmerman wrote: >Iambic pentameter? > > > > > > > The Hermaphrodite > > > > > > > > > > > > Walking slowly along the icy road > > > > > > She thinks of her babyhood with the hippo father > > > > > > & swaddled in clothes how her clit like an elephant's trunk > > > > > > Would wander about the room searching for peanuts >> > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 11:27:07 -0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Heller Subject: Overseas events Comments: To: British-Poets@jiscmail.ac.uk Comments: cc: UKPOETRY@LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU, poetryetc@jiscmail.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed While in Paris in February, I'll be involved in the following events. If you are in the vicinity, I hope you can attend. On Thursday, 5 February at 5:30 PM, with Jane Augustine, a discussion on Lorine Niedecker and reading at the Sorbonne, 5 rue Victor Cousin, 2nd Floor, Bibliotheque de 1'UFR d'anglais. On Saturday morning, 7 February at 9:30 AM, a reading and discussion with Helene Aji on beginnings, middles and ends in poetry and on poetry and the Apocalypse under the auspieces of GRIP at Institut Charles V, 8-10 rue Charles V, Room C40, Escalier C, last floor. On Monday, 9 February at 7 PM, poetry reading with Jane Augustine at The Red Wheelbarrow Book Store, 22 Rue St. Paul (Apologies for cross-posting) ------------------------------------------------ Exigent Futures: New and Selected Poems (2003, Salt Publishing www.saltpublishing.com) Living Root: A Memoir (2001, SUNY Press www.sunypress.edu) Both also available at amazon.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 11:35:18 -0500 Reply-To: bstefans@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Brian Kim Stefans [arras.net]" Subject: Kinski in Kanada this Monday Comments: To: judydean@arras.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey folks... Stephanie and I are doing a reprise of our fringe fringe fringe work Kinski in Kanada this Saturday as part of Tonic's Little Theater series, run by Kate Ryan and Jeffrey Jones. Hope you can make it! THE TRANSIT PLAYS: written by Sheila Callaghan, directed by Hayley Finn, with Deron Bos, David Brooks, Flora Diaz & Hilary Ketchum, music and sound by Sophocles Papavasilopoulos KINSKI IN KANADA: written and performed by Brian Kim Stefans, with Stephanie Sanditz PAPA PETROVSKY AND THE BIG FROSTED CAKE: written & directed by Ann Marie Healy, with Graeme Gillis & Rachelle Mendez YOUR GUEST HOSTS: Stephanie Mnookin & Eliot Laurence of GUILE Monday, January 26, 2004 at 8:00 pm @ Tonic, 107 Norfolk Street between Delancey and Rivington. Tickets are $8.00 at the door, first-come first-served; reservations are not accepted. _________________________________________________________________ There are now three new levels of MSN Hotmail Extra Storage! Learn more. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=hotmail/es2&ST=1 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 09:57:07 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "D. Ross Priddle" Subject: one less copy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII begin with blank, aitch four, emty, sixty-four thousand files, timeout expired!, nth degree, unfirewalled, constructs of the human elan, urgen sorghum, chunk of what, wrap to window, owen self, are you following the story?, the poor quality of a reproduction, cubanizmo, hanging points, the difference principle, the maximin criterion, natural lottery, a universal community, deontology, communitarianism, refuse to collect, ozone water, don't really remember this text, branch out press, do a lot of numbers, what happen to this, the machine broke, the writer's face, time and the movement of people, sleeping head, and that was that, unopened history, real geese, tree by, preyou, preus, how we work, gop, -- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 13:01:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Tills Subject: Dean's "looking presidential" and his good, smart, honest wife "looking beautiful" enough MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kerry's wife is heiress/heir (whichever is politically correct) to, = what, $500,000,000.00, yeah, 500 million bucks. She can afford=20 unlimited bioxin or whatever she desires for fuller lips and slenderer = hips and a liesurely, low stress lifestyle to enhance her looks. Dean's wife works a full medical practice and motherhood, = lovingly and compassionately. =20 Washington wants "a leader," or a phony who pretends to be one (Bush), = or at least a GUY who "looks presidential" (Kerry) or maybe a GUY who=20 seems like John F. Kennedy ("looks" and such again). Gawd, I HATE this f- country! What kind of "aesthetic" could create "a poetry" that could "express" = such a hatred or whatever would be its cure? Swimming in Passions, Steve Steve Tills Microcomputer/Software Specialist MIS Dept.- G.W. Lisk Company, Inc. 315-462-4309 Stills@gwlisk.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 10:21:32 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Marsh Subject: Announcing: Tao Drops, I Change MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear List: Just wanted to let you know that subpress has just published *tao drops, i change*, a collaboration between Steve Carll and Bill Marsh. The book will be available from Small Press Distribution toward the end of February, but you can order copies now for $12 postage paid from: Bill Marsh 7661 Troy Terrace La Mesa, CA 91941 Please make checks out to Bill Marsh. Thanks! * * * change one To move a way out mode of being through change: the shocking waves arousing laughter lap at the unfoldings of clouds. How transitory the drama of spring, how spare the spread of warming nights; the thunder first clears its candid throat, then speaks. mystery can ever see the desiring manifestations the one can see one ever desireless [drop 1] that oh that can be too old is not that yearning too then aim that can be name does not that yearning name then aimless is the begging in of even death then aim does the mother often this and do things why rest my head once on less, resides never if man stations this once a ring, ever sad these two spring from the same source but differ in name; this appears as darkness dark with dark. ness in ness all to the mystery gate ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 13:56:06 -0500 Reply-To: olsonjk@delhi.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kirby Olson Organization: SUNY Delhi Subject: Re: Hermaphrodite poems, anyone? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii The poem's content is perhaps ugly, as David Larson says, and perhaps the meter too is too regular for some tastes, as Annie Finch says. I'll comment on the content, first. When we had the discussion about whether the term "hermaphrodite" could be used in a poem, I had probably never thought of this word much before. But then I thought perhaps by not using it in a poem we are participating in a genocidal erasure of a very large group of people (it's a community of approximately 300,000 people at least in the U.S. -- !). For us to never use this term, or by disbarring the term, is this not a kind of participation in genocide? I'm not saying you should stomp on your left foot with your right in order to understand the pain you've caused the body politic with the exclusion of this term from your vocabulary, nor am I am implying that you willingly participated in this genocidal erasure and that your right deviations should be punished by horse whippings, I'm just saying that the disbarring of the term is a bit icky, just as icky as some might think that using it is. Perhaps someone else could still write poetry and be sensitive on this subject. As for me, I think a poem is either Dionysian or it isn't poetry -- I don't believe that we can consciously construct a poem -- I think the ink has to be like a geyser, that it has to cum in a sense orgiastically, or else it isn't a poem. In the same way that I don't think you can construct an orgasm, I don't think you can construct a poem. At any rate, that is to say that I've never done it. A poem is like a dream in that it simply comes, and I don't think you can direct it without ruining it. Now, in terms of the meter -- I was actually just using the breath line, and wasn't counting meter when I wrote the quatrain. Some would argue that Olson's breath line is old hat, but the chopped lines and start and stop that comes out of Stein's writing is even older in terms of chronology. I am also not sure that we should be chronocentric in terms of thinking that humanity has progressed much since the times of the Neanderthals. Shakespeare's work is not appreciably worse than much of what our contemporaries are writing. I'm really not sure that more recent works are better. In a similar way I am not sure that ancient statues of Easter Island have been improved upon by what you can see at the Tate Galleries or at MOMA. I didn't have any idea where the lines would go -- and just let it sail. I'm not chronocentric in that sense. Also, somewhat in the manner of George Bowering, I serve the muse and let it go wherever it wishes. I was a little surprised when the trunk grew out of the clit and the peanuts were picked up, and so I stopped writing at that point. I was appalled, and later, somewhat amused. I don't mind being appalled. I think it's amusing how perverse the mind is. Just when you think you are being good, you are being absolutely appalling. I had attempted to be virtuous in writing the epic on the Hermaphrodite, but this instead became a rather vicious image (I'm not sure that it's vicious -- in what way is an elephant's trunk vicious??). Now this is where I disagree with the right deviations of a classist writer like Gertrude Stein who only cared to communicate within the avant-garde (with the exception of her one popular text PAris, France, and perhaps a few others). When Stalin was writing in the thirties that it was a right deviation to not use the railroads set up by the people of the bourgeoisie, he meant that (he was writing about linguistics) we do not have to create a new language, with new grammar, in order to communicate. This is a rightist deviation. There were many rightist Bolsheviks who wanted to tear down everything that the bourgeoisie had built so that everything would be Bolshevik. But language was also formed by the People, as a means of communication. At this point in the 21st century, we have experienced a century of experimentation. Already in the teens you have writers experimenting with lettrism, breakups, typographical field poems. Most of these experiments do not communicate anything but the rightist deviation of wanting to be special. Even Annie Finch in wanting to communicate with me about what she saw as iambic lines with some twists used regular grammar. And everybody else has replied in that format. Now maybe it's more experimental to have chopped language, starts and stops, and to try to rip up the railroad lines of grammar, but I would say that after a century of that, it's actually more experimental to go back to thinking about communicating with large numbers, and to talk with The People. I don't think that writers should write for one another. I think they should try to communicate with barbers and dress-makers and carpenters and mayors and others. This is somewhat at odds with my somewhat automatic generative means of creating first drafts. But I do believe in editing. I normally would have just let the Hermaphrodite poem drop, as I didn't think it was completely successful, but I would like to challenge others to write a sensitive poem using that word. At the time of the discussion I was satisfied but I now think it is a rightist deviation to let this matter drop, and to participate in the genocidal erasure of this term, and the people that this term represents. Otherwise, I think that there is a problematic space that opens regarding this rather large community that many have decided are completely unmentionable, and that anybody who does mention them, is ugly, and beneath notice. Isn't this a rightist deviation? Thank you for helping me with this grave matter. -- Kirby Olson ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 10:54:27 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Corbett Subject: Re: comment on neanderthal + history text In-Reply-To: <000f01c3e1c7$f86adbc0$a0fdfc83@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII geez, I don't like hurting flies, but mosquitos do bite and transmit pretty awful diseases. nature is red in tooth and claw, etc. I'm not speciesist, but I reserve to like some more than others. Robert -- Robert Corbett, Ph.C. "Given the distance of communication, Coordinator of New Programs I hope the words aren't idling on the B40D Gerberding map of my fingertips, but igniting the Phone: (206) 616-0657 wild acres within the probabilities of Fax: (206) 685-3218 spelling" - Rosmarie Waldrop UW Box: 351237 On Fri, 23 Jan 2004, Joel Weishaus wrote: > Bravo! > > -Joel, a Sasquatch. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Alan Sondheim" > To: > Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2004 9:05 PM > Subject: comment on neanderthal + history text > > > > Again, re: Neanderthal - I find these approaches specism to the extent > > that they might not at all have been "tragic"; there is still debate in > > fact as to their mixing with other hominid populations. As far as their > > culture being stagnant - there is hardly enough evidence, and how does one > > judge a culture 'stagnant'? Were the Tasmanian native peoples stagnant > > because they showed little development over thousands of years in material > > culture? Hardly. This is also a judgement based on a misplaced concept of > > progress - as if cultures must 'grow,' decline, etc. > > > > We absolutely _must_ recognize species equivalence if the world is to > > survive in its richness. There are no weeds, no vermin, no necessarily > > doomed species, no tragic species, no primitive species, none living > > beyond their time. Live with them. > > > > - Alan, a weed > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > history. > > > > history. history ftp pahistoricx.com ls -la .profile in history rm > > .profile in history ls ftp pahistoricx.com rm .profile in history ls ftp > > pahistoricx exit ls ls .b* h less .bashrc now less .profile in history ls > > cd C:\program-files cd .. dir p* ls p** exit in history exit h ls exit > > exit pwd cd fsf ls edit .bashrc rm .profile in history ls now s ls cd > > /image ls wc historic ftp pahistoricx exit pwd tail historic grep > > transubstantiate * > C:\historiography cd .. more historiography ls exit > > exit ftp pahistoricx exit man xpm lcd image cd image ftp pahistoricx.com p > > xit exit h now p now p now p now f exit > > > > > > _ > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 13:02:59 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brent Bechtel Subject: Re: comment on neanderthal + history text MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The world will never be as one until we can all, in a heartfelt way, call E. Coli our brother (sister?). Just remember, compassion doesn't stop at the lid of a petri dish. -Brent ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Corbett" To: Sent: Friday, January 23, 2004 12:54 PM Subject: Re: comment on neanderthal + history text > geez, I don't like hurting flies, but mosquitos do bite and transmit > pretty awful diseases. nature is red in tooth and claw, etc. I'm not > speciesist, but I reserve to like some more than others. > > Robert > > -- > Robert Corbett, Ph.C. "Given the distance of communication, > Coordinator of New Programs I hope the words aren't idling on the > B40D Gerberding map of my fingertips, but igniting the > Phone: (206) 616-0657 wild acres within the probabilities of > Fax: (206) 685-3218 spelling" - Rosmarie Waldrop > UW Box: 351237 > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 13:46:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Annie Finch Subject: Re: Hermaphrodite poems, anyone? Comments: To: olsonjk@delhi.edu In-Reply-To: <40116E46.F0583EB2@delhi.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" It is common for poets who are not thinking consciously about meter to slip into it without knowing they're doing it....(my guess is it comes probably of having read a lot of metrical poetry at a young age and then forgotten it so you aren't aware of it enough to keep it away). I wrote a book on this subject. Not all poets do it, but some seem to be prone to it. You must be one of them. Maybe Olson was too--as I recall the last line of the Maximus Poems (something about his wife and his car) is a very regular iambic pentameter (thus he put himself into the tradition of poets who achieve closure by invoking that meter) and I doubt he would have liked that if he'd been thinking about it. -Annie >Now, in terms of the meter -- I was actually just using the breath line, and >wasn't counting meter when I wrote the quatrain. Some would argue >that Olson's >breath line is old hat, but the chopped lines and start and stop >that comes out >of Stein's writing is even older in terms of chronology. . . I >didn't have any idea where the lines >would go -- and just let it sail. I'm not chronocentric in that sense. Also, >somewhat in the manner of George Bowering, I serve the muse and let it go >wherever it wishes. ___________________________________ Annie Finch http://www.users.muohio.edu/finchar English Department, Miami University, Ohio Care2 make the world greener! Help the planet each day! It's free and easy: http://www.Care2.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 14:52:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barrett Watten Subject: Diasporic Avant-Gardes: Experimental Poetics and Cultural Displacement Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable CALL FOR PAPERS DIASPORIC AVANT-GARDES: experimental poetics and cultural displacement INTERNATIONAL POETRY CONFERENCE to be held at the University of California, Irvine November 19-20, 2004 Carrie Noland and Barrett Watten, conference organizers =93Diasporic Avant-Gardes=94 focuses attention on the fruitful=20 cross-fertilization that has occurred in the twentieth century between=20 diasporic, postcolonial, and minority poetries and experimental poetries=20 produced within the tradition of the European-American avant-garde. We are= =20 soliciting papers that explore the connection between avant-garde practices= =20 developed in European centers and those emerging in postcolonial=20 peripheries. Submitted papers should contribute toward strengthening the=20 already established but undertheorized interface between race and ethnicity= =20 studies and work in poetry and poetics. Conference sessions will center on= =20 the crucial alliances that have been forged among African-American poets,=20 Language poets, and French post-Objectivist poets; Caribbean poets, French= =20 surrealists, and visual poets; and, finally, minority performance poets and= =20 French sound poets working within the tradition of Futurist and Dadaist=20 experiment. The conference will highlight the work of a range of poet/performers such=20 as: Bruce Andrews, Rachel Blau DuPlessis, Christian B=F6k, Theresa Hak Kyung= =20 Cha, Michael Davidson, Dominique Fourcade, Edouard Glissant, Bernard=20 Heidsieck, Lyn Hejinian, Linton Kwesi Johnson, Tan Lin, Nathaniel Mackey,=20 Mark McMorris, Steve McCaffery, Mich=E8le M=E9tail, Tracie Morris, Fred= Moten,=20 Harryette Mullen, Marlene NourbeSe Philip, Ed Roberson, Jerome Rothenberg,= =20 Jacques Roubaud, Claude Royet-Journoud, MC Solaar, and Edwin Torres. Each=20 of these poet/performers extends the aesthetic practices of the historical= =20 avant-garde for the purpose of exposing and undermining a colonizing=20 politics of representation. Conference papers should demonstrate how poets= =20 such as these and others draw from and add to the evolving history of=20 socially engaged, formally innovative poetry, and how their work furthers=20 the possibilities of a cultural poetics of diasporic experiment. Send a one-page proposal by APRIL 15, 2004 to: Carrie Noland Department of French and Italian HH 312 University of California, Irvine Irvine, CA 92697-2925 cjnoland@uci.edu and Barrett Watten Department of English Wayne State University Detroit, MI 48202 b.watten@wayne.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 15:03:09 -0500 Reply-To: olsonjk@delhi.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kirby Olson Organization: SUNY Delhi Subject: Re: Hermaphrodite poems, anyone? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I don't know why Olson would hate to use iambic. It does have a stateliness to it, and that is a useful tool. Stately elegance often does have a mathematical underpinning. We should use those resources. The last line of Olson's poem reads, as a line alone on a page all by itself: my wife my car my color and myself I am only counting four beats in that line -- the first three feet are iambic -- but then I count after color two unstressed syllables and only one more stress (on self). So I think it's tetrameter. Iambic, yes, at the beginning. But I don't see it as pentameter. I wonder if this is an allusion to his wife's dying by car accident so I look it up in Butterick's notes and he says the car yes refers to his dead wife, the color refers to his being white, but also to his declining health. Does anybody else read this line as pentameter? I think you make a good point about iambic slipping in sometimes unconsciously, but you may be counting other times in order to shove the meter into your theory. I noticed too though while working on Corso that many of his best lines are in perfect iambic pentameter. It's a very classy meter -- like wearing a formal tux. I think it can lend stateliness to a line and elegance. I'm not opposed to either of those things. I don't know why Charles Olson would be against them. They would seem to me to be things a poet would appreciate. Thanks for bringing this matter up. I would like to read other comments. -- Kirby Annie Finch wrote: > It is common for poets who are not thinking consciously about meter > to slip into it without knowing they're doing it....(my guess is it > comes probably of having read a lot of metrical poetry at a young age > and then forgotten it so you aren't aware of it enough to keep it > away). I wrote a book on this subject. Not all poets do it, but some > seem to be prone to it. You must be one of them. Maybe Olson was > too--as I recall the last line of the Maximus Poems (something about > his wife and his car) is a very regular iambic pentameter (thus he > put himself into the tradition of poets who achieve closure by > invoking that meter) and I doubt he would have liked that if he'd > been thinking about it. > > -Annie > > >Now, in terms of the meter -- I was actually just using the breath line, and > >wasn't counting meter when I wrote the quatrain. Some would argue > >that Olson's > >breath line is old hat, but the chopped lines and start and stop > >that comes out > >of Stein's writing is even older in terms of chronology. . . I > >didn't have any idea where the lines > >would go -- and just let it sail. I'm not chronocentric in that sense. Also, > >somewhat in the manner of George Bowering, I serve the muse and let it go > >wherever it wishes. > > ___________________________________ > Annie Finch > http://www.users.muohio.edu/finchar > English Department, Miami University, Ohio > > Care2 make the world greener! > Help the planet each day! It's free and easy: > http://www.Care2.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 15:19:20 -0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Heller Comments: To: poetryetc@jiscmail.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed While in Paris in February, we'll be involved in the following events. If you are in the vicinity, I hope you can attend. (Please note corrections): On Thursday, 5 February at 5:30 PM, with Jane Augustine, a discussion on Lorine Niedecker and reading, a seminar organized and directed by Professor Genevieve Cohen-Cheminet, at the Sorbonne, 5 rue Victor Cousin, 2nd Floor, Bibliotheque de 1'UFR d'anglais. On Saturday morning, 7 February at 9:30 AM, a reading and discussion with Helene Aji on beginnings, middles and ends in poetry and on poetry and the Apocalypse, under the auspieces of GRIP at Institut Charles V, 8-10 rue Charles V, Room C40, Escalier C, last floor. On Monday, 9 February at 7 PM, poetry reading with Jane Augustine at The Red Wheelbarrow Book Store, 22 Rue St. Paul (Apologies for cross-posting ------------------------------------------------ Exigent Futures: New and Selected Poems (2003, Salt Publishing www.saltpublishing.com) Living Root: A Memoir (2001, SUNY Press www.sunypress.edu) Both also available at amazon.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 12:48:11 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Weishaus Subject: Re: comment on neanderthal + history text MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brent: It is not a matter of compassion. But the gut-intuition of interdependency is, I suggest, where the art we need begins to live. Alan knows this. -Joel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brent Bechtel" To: Sent: Friday, January 23, 2004 11:02 AM Subject: Re: comment on neanderthal + history text > The world will never be as one until we can all, in a heartfelt way, call E. > Coli our brother (sister?). > > Just remember, compassion doesn't stop at the lid of a petri dish. > > -Brent > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robert Corbett" > To: > Sent: Friday, January 23, 2004 12:54 PM > Subject: Re: comment on neanderthal + history text > > > > geez, I don't like hurting flies, but mosquitos do bite and transmit > > pretty awful diseases. nature is red in tooth and claw, etc. I'm not > > speciesist, but I reserve to like some more than others. > > > > Robert > > > > -- > > Robert Corbett, Ph.C. "Given the distance of communication, > > Coordinator of New Programs I hope the words aren't idling on the > > B40D Gerberding map of my fingertips, but igniting the > > Phone: (206) 616-0657 wild acres within the probabilities of > > Fax: (206) 685-3218 spelling" - Rosmarie Waldrop > > UW Box: 351237 > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 17:19:52 -0330 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Hehir Subject: Nallininga ometamame kisainee naiKunmme (The Companion of My Heart and Mind) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII hi, in the spirit of cross-cultural poetix i thought I'd post this poem that came my way from a friend from Labrador, Stan Nochasak. Stan has provided english translations from Inuktituk, the language of the Inuit people of the Eastern Arctic. Stan now lives in the city of St. John's, many miles from home. From his introduction: I wrote a poem years ago and accidently found it in one of my boxes the other day, thought you would like to read it. It is called 'Nallininga Ometamame kis ainess NaiKunmmek' or 'Companion In]Of My Heart and Mind', and it has some Labrador Inuktitut translations with it to give it my own, sense of home. Stan Companion Ometamame kisainee NaiKunmme (In}Of My Heart and Mind) Love is an elegant aKKak (hand), an artistic hand, a graceful hand, aggaKame kisainee innuKunaktuk (a beautiful hand) that molds innuKunak (gorgeous or beautiful) shapes with its clay that never runs out. Since the start has love of you burnt up my helpless uvame (self), PitaKangetok sulli puaktume (It]the object got no ash left) For wind to blow-- Not one. A faint of you has made you a (nallininga) companion (or lover) in (my) omatemame (heart) kisainee naiKumme (and mind), love of you in my chest, feels the abode of (pijume) joy. Love steals from the sugar all its sweets, And from the rose its red, With every Kannime (smile) of love, And every tutsaame (word). And who to others turn away instead, Everyone would come to love as it's weak and feeble servants, If of love between us souls caught The faintest hint. Surpassing must of tartary, The morning wind blows through love's hair, Like ambergris the very air, Love's Katlunaatitut (breath) and scent, Love is the artic atjinga naipitaksaunngi (snowy owl), And with you nunavakavunga (I a poor tundra mouse), See what hath smeared those rapcious claws, Of my blood redolent! With you my life love doth harrow. It's like the conjunction of the Sikkinime (Sun) and the Ikkijunamvut (Moon) when we meet. iikkii (light) of the Love of our relationship, there is no difference. Our love between us is itki (cold]chill) in hell fire; dry in the immime (sea). With whose eye do I see? Atsuk? (I do not know?) Ikkijuame (the light) is blinding. Love's not a contract, tis free as the anugik (wind). How shall a curtain part the lover and loved one? Not China's wall can separate them! The siKKinik (sun) of Love tis too bright to see directly, the repose of our omatimame (heart) grows. Inume takutsaavunga (Thousands do I see), laying their naaKuk (heads) in a noose to fall on the pathway of love. Love seizes not upon the living soul, The falcon preys not on a dead nunavakkak (mouse). kisainee isumakuavumaja (If I had known) that falling in love was to fall in love with pain, I would have thundered a drum to proclaim through the city that love was banned for all. Candle sinnijuk (weeps) and gives light, sinnijuk and gives light. The snow blade of love of thee strikes without calculation or hesitation, illume jaikame (in my chest), leaving nothing. The sea beast of love does away the shaman of reason and destroys the torgnasok (omnipotent being) of knowledge. Nalligivagit isumaKangnitome (almost to the level of madness), to say "I love you" becomes a cliche, instead I become the words, live it out for time and eternity. You surpass the beauty of an artic flower, a cast of a ray of light of the north, You are more relaxing to my eye than any atjinga naipitaksaunngi (landscape), you cause in me an utterance of a sigh of relief and a sweet moan, a solace of my eye. Nalliniga (love) is an elegant hand that molds innuKunak shapes wiwth its clay that never runs out. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 12:50:59 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Corbett Subject: Re: comment on neanderthal + history text In-Reply-To: <002701c3e1e3$85881660$602b1e43@k6k12c9frvhhz6p> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII and what about prions? actually they sound really cool except for the fact that They Eat Brains. does this make them the Zombies Within? sorry list--'tis Friday. have a good weekend. i am checking out, as i have hit the maximum. and serious all creatures great and small is an important to remember. but if a certain nicknaming redneck preppie is someone i have love, well, i am with Hobbes on this issue. Robert -- Robert Corbett, Ph.C. "Given the distance of communication, Coordinator of New Programs I hope the words aren't idling on the B40D Gerberding map of my fingertips, but igniting the Phone: (206) 616-0657 wild acres within the probabilities of Fax: (206) 685-3218 spelling" - Rosmarie Waldrop UW Box: 351237 On Fri, 23 Jan 2004, Brent Bechtel wrote: > The world will never be as one until we can all, in a heartfelt way, call E. > Coli our brother (sister?). > > Just remember, compassion doesn't stop at the lid of a petri dish. > > -Brent > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robert Corbett" > To: > Sent: Friday, January 23, 2004 12:54 PM > Subject: Re: comment on neanderthal + history text > > > > geez, I don't like hurting flies, but mosquitos do bite and transmit > > pretty awful diseases. nature is red in tooth and claw, etc. I'm not > > speciesist, but I reserve to like some more than others. > > > > Robert > > > > -- > > Robert Corbett, Ph.C. "Given the distance of communication, > > Coordinator of New Programs I hope the words aren't idling on the > > B40D Gerberding map of my fingertips, but igniting the > > Phone: (206) 616-0657 wild acres within the probabilities of > > Fax: (206) 685-3218 spelling" - Rosmarie Waldrop > > UW Box: 351237 > > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 13:01:45 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joseph Thomas Subject: Re: Hermaphrodite poems, anyone? Comments: To: olsonjk@delhi.edu In-Reply-To: <40116E46.F0583EB2@delhi.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Kirby Olson wrote: >I don't think that writers should write for one > another. I think they should try to communicate > with barbers and dress-makers and carpenters and > mayors and others. ____ I find more comfortable a system in which some writers write for "barbers and dress-makers" et. al. and some write for their friends, and some write for other writers they don't know, and some for writers they do know. Not that some barbers and dress-makers aren't writers with a taste for experimental and intermedial poetry. The world of writing is much more diverse and energized when folks are writing for different audiences for different purposes. Best, Joseph Thomas __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 15:05:12 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brent Bechtel Subject: Re: comment on neanderthal + history text MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I know. And I agree, I think. It's warm today and I felt like sloganeering--that one sounded like a good slogan. Acutlly, I wrote a poem a couple of weeks back that touches on this a little. -Brent ----- For everyone who has felt She always feels temporarily relieved when she sees a man draped in a nightgown. Then she asks my shaman to transcribe the wine stains on her cotton dress. Ah, yes. Sometimes exhaustion results in rest. I almost mistake it for an actual sensation. This may be normal. I can empathize with every living thing-- it doesn't mean I care what they believe. Sometimes I forget where I actually reside-- The physical body, or a women's shelter. [Brent Bechtel] ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joel Weishaus" To: Sent: Friday, January 23, 2004 2:48 PM Subject: Re: comment on neanderthal + history text > Brent: > > It is not a matter of compassion. But the gut-intuition of interdependency > is, I suggest, where the art we need begins to live. Alan knows this. > > -Joel > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brent Bechtel" > To: > Sent: Friday, January 23, 2004 11:02 AM > Subject: Re: comment on neanderthal + history text > > > > The world will never be as one until we can all, in a heartfelt way, call > E. > > Coli our brother (sister?). > > > > Just remember, compassion doesn't stop at the lid of a petri dish. > > > > -Brent > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Robert Corbett" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, January 23, 2004 12:54 PM > > Subject: Re: comment on neanderthal + history text > > > > > > > geez, I don't like hurting flies, but mosquitos do bite and transmit > > > pretty awful diseases. nature is red in tooth and claw, etc. I'm not > > > speciesist, but I reserve to like some more than others. > > > > > > Robert > > > > > > -- > > > Robert Corbett, Ph.C. "Given the distance of communication, > > > Coordinator of New Programs I hope the words aren't idling on the > > > B40D Gerberding map of my fingertips, but igniting the > > > Phone: (206) 616-0657 wild acres within the probabilities of > > > Fax: (206) 685-3218 spelling" - Rosmarie Waldrop > > > UW Box: 351237 > > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 13:33:10 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Starr Subject: Re: Hermaphrodite poems, anyone? Comments: To: Kirby Olson In-Reply-To: <40117DFD.B1A767D0@delhi.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In traditional prosody, this would be a pentameter line -- and would be scanned w/ a pyrrhic in the fourth foot or as an iamb (a "promoted" stress on "and"). Iambic pentameter is not defined so much as having five beats as by a distribution of variations around a norm of five iambic feet. More interesting questions, to me, at least are 1) under what circumstances does scansion make sense in poems that are manifestly not in formal meter and 2) what is meant by using iambic pentameter in this day and age when there are so many additional tools in the box? (or, to put it a little differently, is it possible to use pentameter w/out aligning oneself w/ the reactionary stupidities of New Formalism) Annie Finch's book is wonderful, by the way. I've also enjoyed a book by a teacher of mine -- Charles O. Hartman, _Free Verse: An Esaay on Prosody_ (Princeton, 1980; rpt. Northwestern UP, 1996). - Ron On Fri, 23 Jan 2004, Kirby Olson wrote: > . . . The last line of Olson's poem reads, as a line alone on a page all > by itself: > > my wife my car my color and myself > > I am only counting four beats in that line -- the first three feet are iambic -- > but then I count after color two unstressed syllables and only one more stress (on > self). ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 09:11:20 +1100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alison Croggon Subject: Re: Hermaphrodite poems, anyone? In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 24/1/04 8:33 AM, "Ron Starr" wrote: > (or, to put it > a little differently, is it possible to use pentameter w/out aligning > oneself w/ the reactionary stupidities of New Formalism) I don't understand these kinds of questions. Of course it is possible. It probably requires more guile and passion than the New Formalists are prepared to invest. Best A Alison Croggon Editor, Masthead http://www.masthead.net.au Home page http://www.alisoncroggon.com Blog http://alisoncroggon.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 09:15:21 +1100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alison Croggon Subject: Re: Hermaphrodite poems, anyone? In-Reply-To: <20040123210145.63499.qmail@web20420.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 24/1/04 8:01 AM, "Joseph Thomas" wrote: > The world of writing is much more diverse and > energized when folks are writing for different > audiences for different purposes. Yeah, I guess so... I have to say that Kirby's idea of writing for barbers and so on strikes me as more than a little patronising, a writing for a less fortunate "them" which requires some kind of implicit self censorship perhaps, but I worry about any kind of writing which predicates itself on some abstract idea of "audience", which is usually a kind of death. Best A Alison Croggon Editor, Masthead http://www.masthead.net.au Home page http://www.alisoncroggon.com Blog http://alisoncroggon.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 16:39:59 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: Hermaphrodite poems, anyone? In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v543) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit what's an example of an abstract idea of an audience & one of a "objective" idea of an audience? I'm curious where my fantasy of "audience" lies in this schema. On Friday, January 23, 2004, at 02:15 PM, Alison Croggon wrote: > but I worry about any kind of writing which predicates itself on > some abstract idea of "audience", which is usually a kind of death. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 15:41:40 -0700 Reply-To: bradsenning@dissociatedwritersproject.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: brad senning Subject: DWP Contest (free!) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed CONTEST ANNOUNCMENT The Dissociated Writers Project (DWP) seeks quality poetry and fiction. AWARD: DWP contest winners are published in the DWP anthology, to be distributed to contest winners. Contest winners are also invited to read at the 2004 DWP conference in Chicago, March 25-27. DEADLINE: February 15, 2004 No Fee ADDRESS: The DWP 1929 Kenyon St. NW Washington, DC 20010 or submit online at http://www.dissociatedwritersproject.com ABOUT THE DWP The DWP is a forum for quality arts and artists to display, read and talk about their work. Because work quality isn’t revealed necessarily by number or types of awards or publishing credits, the DWP actively seeks work from under-represented sources. Access to this work remains “as free as possible” through print and web journals, as well as via our annual conference. For more information, go to: http://www.dissociatedwritersproject.com _________________________________________________________________ High-speed users—be more efficient online with the new MSN Premium Internet Software. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=byoa/prem&ST=1 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 16:59:27 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Haas Bianchi Subject: Re: Conservative group quietly drops plans for poll In-Reply-To: <59E208EC-4D5D-11D8-B132-003065AC6058@sonic.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit this is just excellent > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of kari edwards > Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2004 10:34 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Conservative group quietly drops plans for poll > > > Conservative group quietly drops plans for poll > Christopher Curtis, Gay.com / PlanetOut.com Network > Thursday, January 22, 2004 / 05:40 PM > > > The conservative American Family Association (AFA) said it will not > take the results of its marriage poll to Capitol Hill after a majority > of respondents favored same-sex marriage, according to a Thursday > report in Wired News. > > The AFA posted the poll online in December with a stated intention to > forward the results to Congress as evidence of U.S. opposition to > same-sex marriage. Respondents could select one of these three choices: > > "I favor legalization of homosexual marriage." > > "I favor a 'civil union' with the full benefits of marriage except for > the name." > > "I oppose legalization of homosexual marriage and 'civil unions.'" > > But as of press time, the numbers support same-sex unions: Sixty > percent favored same-sex marriage and 8 percent favored civil unions, > leaving just 32 percent opposed. > > AFA representative Buddy Smith complained to Wired News: "It just so > happens that homosexual activist groups around the country got a hold > of the poll -- it was forwarded to them -- and they decided to have a > little fun, and turn their organizations around the country (on to) the > poll to try to cause it to represent something other than what we > wanted it to. And so far, they succeeded with that." > > Matt Foreman, the Executive Director of the National Gay and Lesbian > Taskforce was dumbfounded. "The abject hypocrisy of these people never > ceases to amaze me," he exclaimed. > > "They constantly manipulate facts, and when things don't work out as > they want, they run to mama and whine." > > On Jan. 6, the Gay.com/PlanetOut.com Network discussed the AFA poll > with expert Bob Witeck, who said that since it was not a scientific > survey, its results could not be considered meaningful data. According > to Witeck, legitimate polls show support for gay marriage somewhere > between 40 to 50 percent -- and growing. > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 17:33:03 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Haas Bianchi Subject: Re: Neanderthal Poetry Comments: To: Millie Niss on eathlink In-Reply-To: <004c01c3e044$40c2c4d0$943a4b43@ibmfb1014a> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit to call Bush's verse Neanderthal is too good for him > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Millie Niss on > eathlink > Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2004 11:30 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Neanderthal Poetry > > > The Neanderthal poem was mine. > > Millie Niss > > I had the misfortune of hearing part of Bush's campaign speech last night > (for non-Americans, this was supposed to be the semi-annual "state of the > union speech"), and it made me think of Mairead's request for neanderthal > poetry: > -------------- > Neanderthal Poem aka State of the Union Speech, 2004 > > me bushman in white cave! > me strong, me big! > me want more more more! > four more! > > me want me clan big go, big go iraq! > bad bad iraqi have big big stones! > me want no big stones in not me clan! > me stone-man, me club-man! > not me not have stones, not clubs! > they bad! > > big go iraq rock throw on bad bad iraqi! > club hit bad bad iraqi in Baghdad! > > bad iraqi not bow me clan! > not bow not pray in me sacred cave! > hide in bad-man cave! > me no find long time! > > me want big go iraqi too! > me big go eat bird on bird day with me clan! > me do me want, me all do me want! > me big! > > me find bad man iraqi clan big man! > me clan clean big bad man bad hair! > eat bad man lice get bad man spirit! > > me want all not me like me! > not me do like me do! > all do me do! > > all pray in me cave me spirit! > me spirit most big spirit! > one spirit three spirit! > spirit died help me win! > spirit died on tree-flesh me! > me pray to tree-flesh! > tree-flesh totem! > > all bad bad iraqi pray to voodoo totem! > pray five! > five bad! > pray bad day! > me pray first day bad bad iraqis pray seven day! > > they shaman bad mans! > but bad man help me clan good! > good bad man hit brothers sisters me club me stone! > kill brothers sisters mothers fathers! > they good bad mans! > > me clan big man four more! > me want win me win! > me more sacred bones! > bad mans me clan lose! > they no bones! > they no big father! > they not many bow bow pray! > me bow bow pray more! > me good! > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 18:44:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Tills Subject: Re: Hermaphrodite poems, anyone? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A week or so ago (so this is a late response to it),=20 I "regretted having read" the provocative post associating=20 ke with the "two JOHNS" (and still do, somewhat, though what does this sentence do again, too).=20 I've taken issue with a few parts of other posts of yours=20 KO, too, sometimes "obviously" to provoke=20 "the kneejerk," rabble rouse, stir things up. =20 I do, though, generally sympathize with several of=20 your points, arguments here: I agree that "caring" for the word itself is a worthy cause,=20 especially considering that it will always 'mean" and "do"=20 and "operate" in almost infinite ways, like most all=20 signifiers, depending on context, employment, and reader. I do NOT agree, though, that "sex" or for that matter=20 "jouissance" or yet a third thing, Dionysian ecstacy, are any longer prerequisite qualities, objects, or values=20 for any writing. In fact, I think they are now, for me=20 anyway, fetishes and cliches and false-center whatevers that ought to be, at least for awhile (10-20 years, or at least=20 10-20 months), "ruptured," deconstructed, left behind." I agree with Cixous, I think it is, that maybe for female writers=20 "sex," as in "female sex," should maybe still be explored,=20 but deep down, personally, I think it's all really, really old. =20 I think that at least for me everytime I have the impulse to=20 let "the sexual" pun, alliteration, metaphor, metonym, etc.=20 get onto the page, even if "it feels" brilliant and intutively=20 just right and exact, it's nonetheless some other writer=20 who thrust that otherwise perfectly poetic and delightfully "given" nuance from "my Unconsciousness"=20 (whence the good stuff comes, yeah, but "whose" good stuff,=20 finally, whose, now, or "what's," now?). (So who or "what"=20 is the muse, now, and why do I want to kill her, him,=20 it sometimes, also.) You write: "Most of these experiments do not communicate=20 anything but the rightist deviation of wanting to be special." =20 You know, doggone it, this resonates with me an awful lot. =20 I won't say more to this, except that I don't really have the=20 stomach (Hmmm, not listening to "THAT Unconscious, then?")=20 to prescribe for anyone and "I so want to encourage everybody to open whatever fields they want to open and dance about=20 them to their heart's content, 'cause frankly that's my deepest=20 wish on earth" and I certainly don't want to be an ass and diss=20 the stretching of form(s) at the letter and numeral and symbol=20 level, BUT it's not that. It's, I think, the whole falootin fetish=20 for "anything that remotely APPEARS to be new form." =20 Now, I don't know how "we" got here so fast from just a=20 decade and a half or so ago when it was abundantly (no,=20 NOT fashionable; no, NOT "in vogue to," but) just plain smart=20 and reasonable to push the formal and move away from=20 the material, as Michael Palmer said, in so many words years ago,=20 BUT doggone it, there's a lot of "the material," that is=20 needed today, and that binary (dividing the f from the m),=20 anyhow, was probably a little bit wrong if overdone (or is now), so synthesis of formal and material is the ticket, maybe. =20 Anyhow, I think it just all, HA, comes down to Bush (for me)=20 -- i.e., Yeah, mere "formal" may be if "indulged" much more=20 excessively nothing more than a "decorative" parlor=20 entertainment for the very well-to-do and leisure class=20 "artistes," (who really don't have anything else to do or=20 want to do?). As for "writing for one another" and instead "writing=20 to communicate with barbers and dress-makers and=20 carpenters and mayors and others," well, I don't know=20 if it's all that easy. My first impulse is to say, Write in=20 new venues that barbers and dress-makers and=20 carpenters and mayors will read, not necessarily knowing=20 that they were reading "poetry" in the first place. =20 But another thing is, how about, for example, Larry Eigner,=20 say. In this sense, to my mind, writing equally for oneself as=20 for multiple others, and I don't think anyone here could=20 possibly box Eigner's writing with a ribbon labeled=20 "patriarchal," "racist," "hierarchical," etc. It's just pure=20 poetry, in my opinion. Ditto, for me, personally, much=20 of O'Hara, who never tires me, never exhausts my=20 reading thirsts. Last, I forgot to mention that I, too, would (trying to=20 stay as open as I can in this life ("grace to be born and=20 live as variously as possible") (possibly my own=20 all-time favorite line) also tend to accept as best I can what at least initially "appalls" though with temperance=20 there, also, as again one can quickly recede into yet another fetish. My two cents this Friday, and innumerable "prescriptions," I know. Cheers to all, Steve=20 =20 =20 =20 =20 Steve Tills Microcomputer/Software Specialist MIS Dept.- G.W. Lisk Company, Inc. 315-462-4309 Stills@gwlisk.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 13:47:57 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Susan M. Schultz" Subject: Fwd: new books, half by women Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Begin forwarded message: > From: Susan Schultz > Date: Fri Jan 23, 2004 1:27:00 PM Pacific/Honolulu > To: schultz@hawaii.rr.com > Cc: WOM-PO@listerv.muohio.edu > Subject: new books, half by women > > Tinfish Press is pleased to announce the publication of four new > chapbooks (the last boxes just now arrived at the door): > > _A Theory of Subjectivity in Moby-Dick_, in which Deborah Meadows reads > through Melville's text. > > _No guns, no durian_, by Susan M. Schultz, in which I steal liberally > from Angelina Jolie's Cambodia diaries, among other sources. > > and by the men: > > _The Prison Diaries of Ho Chi Minh_, translated from the Chinese by > Steve Bradbury. > > _Philter_, by Normie Salvador. Our first scented book. > > For details about ordering the books, please see our website: > > http://maven.english.hawaii.edu/tinfish > > aloha, Susan > > Susan M. Schultz > Professor > Department of English > University of Hawai`i-Manoa > Honolulu, HI 96822 > > http://maven.english.hawaii.edu/tinfish > http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/schultz/ > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 03:14:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Ian Koan Summary Form From Murray MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Ian Koan Summary Form From Murray magical Taoism whack killed the emperor. Forever! Condensation. The world is picaresque; these novels elixir! It kills. Swollen emptiness. The world will turn. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 07:05:36 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: tonights the night- Dodie Bellamy &Eleni Stecopoulos In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please forward !!!! Announcing: a wonderful reading not to be missed... an evening with: Dodie Bellamy Eleni Stecopoulos Saturday, Jan. 24 7:00 p.m. 3435 Cesar Chavez #327 San Francisco, CA Dodie Bellamy's latest book Cunt-Ups (Tender Buttons) won the 2002=20 Firecracker Alternative Book Award for poetry. Her infamous epistolary=20= vampire novel, The Letters of Mina Harker, will be reprinted in 2004 by=20= the University of Wisconsin Press. Also in 2004 San Francisco's=20 Suspect Thoughts will publish Pink Steam, a collection of stories,=20 memoirs and memoiresque essays. She is currently working on The Fourth=20= Form, a multi-dimensional sex novel. This semester she is, insanely,=20 teaching fiction writing at San Francisco State, Antioch Los Angeles,=20 and CalArts. Eleni Stecopoulos's poetry and poetics have appeared in the New York=20 Times, Harvard Review, Open Letter, Zazil, Chain, Rust Talks, and=20 elsewhere. Her essay =93Geopathy=94 is forthcoming in Ecopoetics. She is=20= finishing a dissertation out of Buffalo on Artaud, Paul Metcalf,=20 autoethnography, alphabetic terror, Chinese medicine, time and the=20 American frontier, etc. ************************************************************************ DIRECTIONS: to 3435 Cesar Chavez #327 between Valencia and Mission, on the South side of Cesar Chavez is a parking lot entrance; which when you first enter from Cesar Chavez will be (some) guest parking. Parking in the area (on the street) is not to bad. Once you have entered the parking lot go to your left past a small printing company and directly behind that (to the west) will be double glass doors. @ left of the Doors is a =93buzzer system=94 press = the number 043. someone will pick up the phone and buzz you in. Mass transit. Bart - get off at 24th go south on Mission, (the numbers will get higher) walk 3 blocks, cross Cesar Chavez (there will be a stop light) go right 3/4 of a block, turn left in to parking lot. MUNI- get off @ 27th walk north (the opposite direction the muni would be going from down town) walk one block turn right on Cesar chavez, Cross Delores, Guerrero and then cross valencia, turn right into first parking lot. Buses- on Mission take (going southish)- 14. 14L, 49 (get off at 26th - 1/2 block from cesar chavez - walk south - cross Cesar Chavez turn right; Valencia - 26 get off just past Cesar Chavez , cross Valencia on Cesar Chavez, turn right into parking lot.. ________________________________________________________________ any questions contact: kari edwards terra1@sonic.net ________________ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 07:35:46 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Weishaus Subject: comment on neanderthal + history text MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brent: I like the four lines: "She always feels... Thanks! -Joel > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brent Bechtel" > To: > Sent: Friday, January 23, 2004 1:05 PM > Subject: Re: comment on neanderthal + history text > > > > I know. And I agree, I think. > > > > It's warm today and I felt like sloganeering--that one sounded like a good > > slogan. > > > > Acutlly, I wrote a poem a couple of weeks back that touches on this a > > little. > > > > -Brent > > > > ----- > > > > For everyone who has felt > > > > > > > > She always feels temporarily relieved > > when she sees a man draped in a nightgown. > > > > Then she asks my shaman to transcribe > > the wine stains on her cotton dress. > > > > Ah, yes. > > > > Sometimes exhaustion results in rest. > > > > I almost mistake it for an actual sensation. > > > > This may be normal. > > > > I can empathize with every living thing-- > > it doesn't mean I care what they believe. > > > > Sometimes I forget where I actually reside-- > > > > The physical body, or a women's shelter. > > > > > > [Brent Bechtel] > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Joel Weishaus" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, January 23, 2004 2:48 PM > > Subject: Re: comment on neanderthal + history text > > > > > > > Brent: > > > > > > It is not a matter of compassion. But the gut-intuition of > interdependency > > > is, I suggest, where the art we need begins to live. Alan knows this. > > > > > > -Joel > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Brent Bechtel" > > > To: > > > Sent: Friday, January 23, 2004 11:02 AM > > > Subject: Re: comment on neanderthal + history text > > > > > > > > > > The world will never be as one until we can all, in a heartfelt way, > > call > > > E. > > > > Coli our brother (sister?). > > > > > > > > Just remember, compassion doesn't stop at the lid of a petri dish. > > > > > > > > -Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Robert Corbett" > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Friday, January 23, 2004 12:54 PM > > > > Subject: Re: comment on neanderthal + history text > > > > > > > > > > > > > geez, I don't like hurting flies, but mosquitos do bite and transmit > > > > > pretty awful diseases. nature is red in tooth and claw, etc. I'm > not > > > > > speciesist, but I reserve to like some more than others. > > > > > > > > > > Robert > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Robert Corbett, Ph.C. "Given the distance of > communication, > > > > > Coordinator of New Programs I hope the words aren't idling on > the > > > > > B40D Gerberding map of my fingertips, but igniting > > the > > > > > Phone: (206) 616-0657 wild acres within the probabilities > > of > > > > > Fax: (206) 685-3218 spelling" - Rosmarie Waldrop > > > > > UW Box: 351237 > > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 10:31:39 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brent Bechtel Subject: Considerations on the Hermaphrodite MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The last two lines of Kirby Olson's poem on the hermaphrodite, and = especially the last line, cause me to give it a dual reading: Where in = addition to "Would wander about the room searching for peanuts" - I also = get "Would wander about the room searching for penis" Since it's a hermaphrodite poem, it makes me think of those = hermaphrodites with the greatly enlarged clitoris - as though searching = to become a penis. Wait. That sounds quite Freudian, doesn't it? -Brent ----- Walking slowly along the icy road She thinks of her babyhood with the hippo father & swaddled in clothes how her clit like an elephant's trunk Would wander about the room searching for peanuts=20 --Kirby Olson ----- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 12:08:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ian VanHeusen Subject: Feb. 23, 2004 at Valentine's Comments: To: albanypoetsNY@yahoogroups.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Just to give everyone a heads up Albany, NY on Monday, February 23 The Urban Carnival presents: Poetry, music, juggling, clowns, and mayhem featuring The Dresden Dolls (www.dresdendolls.com) Rockets & Bluelights & Ian VanHeusen Doors open at 730pm 7 $ Downstairs at Valentine's ________________________________________________ Policies dangerously increase. _________________________________________________________________ High-speed users—be more efficient online with the new MSN Premium Internet Software. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=byoa/prem&ST=1 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 09:43:36 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: Re: Considerations on the Hermaphrodite In-Reply-To: <001001c3e297$8c0e91d0$732b1e43@k6k12c9frvhhz6p> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Saturday, January 24, 2004, at 08:31 AM, Brent Bechtel wrote: > The last two lines of Kirby Olson's poem on the hermaphrodite, and > especially the last line, cause me to give it a dual reading: Where in > addition to "Would wander about the room searching for peanuts" - I > also get "Would wander about the room searching for penis" > > Since it's a hermaphrodite poem, it makes me think of those > hermaphrodites with the greatly enlarged clitoris - as though > searching to become a penis. > > Wait. That sounds quite Freudian, doesn't it? no it sounds ignorant, heterosexual, insensitive and thoughtless..... its no wonder the f....ing president can get away with trying to pass an amendment against homosexual marriage... because of thoughtless insensitive thinking as this... it seems way to easy to speak of the intersexed without an once of insight... who on this list is..?and how does it feel to have the term "hermaphrodites" used.. would anyone talk about race like this.. no!!!! gender and "hermaphrodites" are easy word to bash around like is a volley ball and you are in a compitition I have sat by and watched this lame banter on gender and "hermaphrodites"... and I do truly see this world as hopeless when not one person even question sthe construct of the language of hermaphrodite.. this is way to easy and on the surface nothing but chatter on the air ways.. it neither speaks of substance or relationships it all reminds me of some spam I got today: "Ejacu.late Like A P0RN Star!..." come on, get real .. you trough these terms around like gender and "hermaphrodites" and not one comment goes beyond the surface... kari http://www.planetout.com/pno/splash.html Study: Genes may trump nurture with intersex kidsRandy Dotinga, Gay.com / PlanetOut.com Network Friday, January 23, 2004 / 05:34 PM Sex-change operations aren't just for grown-ups. A tiny number of newborn baby boys go under the knife when their genitals are so malformed that surgeons figure it's better to raise them as girls. But a new study suggests that switching genders is hardly so simple. Researchers found that eight of 14 boys who grew up as females later declared themselves to be male. Nurture, it seems, couldn't beat out nature, at least in most of the children. *It certainly will make doctors think twice before rapidly performing genital surgery on intersex children,* said Dr. Eric Vilain, a genetics expert at the University of California at Los Angeles. *Hopefully, the doctors will wait to see which gender develops before performing surgery.* The fate of so-called *intersex* children has long been a major topic of debate. What do you do with babies who are born with birth defects that make it difficult to recognize their gender? About one of every 3,000 babies has a more serious problem -- severely malformed or so-called *ambiguous* genitalia. The gender of the child may not be obvious, and the babies often appear to be both male and female. In the past, influential psychologists theorized that *gender identity* had everything to do with environment: Raise an intersex boy as a girl, maybe with the help of surgery and hormone treatments, and he -- she -- will grow up to think and act like a woman. This approach didn't always work. In a famous case documented in the book *As Nature Made Him: The Boy Who Was Raised as a Girl,* a Canadian boy who suffered a botched circumcision was operated upon and raised as a girl. He suffered through a tortured adolescence and later chose to live as a man and get married. In reality, *Nature as well as nurture affects your gender identity,* says Dr. Melvin Grumbach, a pediatrician and professor emeritus at the University of California at San Francisco. 8It's not all one or another -- and in an individual, you can not be sure what is the deterministic factor.* In the new study, researchers spent several years following the lives of 16 children who were born with a defect known as cloacal exstrophy that left them without normal penises. All the children are genetically male; all but two underwent surgery to remove their testes (which were inside their bodies) and create female genitalia. The findings of the study appear in the Jan. 22 issue of the New England Journal of Medicine. The two children with intact testes were raised as boys and continued to think of themselves as males. The other 14 were raised as girls, and even their birth certificates reflected their new genders. Eight of the 14 later declared themselves to be male, and six of them said they wanted to undergo sex-change surgery to gain penises. All 14 had some male traits: They had trouble interacting with girls (but not boys), and they reported little interest in playing with dolls or playing house. *In normal genetic and hormonal males, there's a rather district likelihood that their brain has been masculinized, both in terms of their behaviors and their identity, how they see themselves,* said study co-author Dr. William G. Reiner, a pediatric urologist at University of Oklahoma Health Sciences Center. Experts said the study provides more evidence that psychologists and doctors need to tread carefully as they decide whether to *assign* an intersex child to a particular gender at birth. *What's critical for all of us as surgeons is to operate when operations are indicated,* Reiner said. *If we don't know if they're indicated, we should be careful about doing them.* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 17:49:06 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Glass Subject: Cid and Shizumi Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Received a call from Shizumi Corman a while ago and I wrestled with sharing this, but know there are many friends of Cid's on this list, so here goes: Apparently Cid's been asleep for the last 25 days since his heart attack. Shizumi used the word simiyaku--sleeping pills. The rationale behind this is that the doctors did not want Cid to move or to get excited because of the delicate condition of his heart after the by-pass they gave him and the pacemaker they implanted. In addition Cid's kidneys have shut down so he's also been receiving dialysis. The doctors say there is a high probability of brain damage because of the extended, chemically-induced sleep. They'll be waking Cid up later today to see if this is true. Shizumi says to pray for Cid, but I say to pray for both Cid and Shizumi. Not only is Shizumi taking care of Cid, but she's also taking care of a brother with cancer in the same hospital. Shizumi, who stands about 5 foot two inches, has her own medical problems: she has pain in her eyes and is virtually blind at night. Shizumi says that she doesn't care what's happened with Cid, she will take him home and take care of him forever. Jesse ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 13:44:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Annie Finch Subject: Re: Hermaphrodite poems, anyone? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Responses to a few responses to the scansion issue & related topics: Tim, you put it well to say that meter is a way of transcribing sound and not an ideal or mechanical system. With that in mind, scansion needs to be sensitive. In your scansion of KIrby's lines, yes, you do account for each separate line in some kind of theoretically accurate metrical way....but this scansion you posted is not sensitive to the rhythmic dynamics of passage as a passage of verse. Scansion is not a linear academic exercise whose point is to line up a bunch of assorted feet in a row, as you do here with the apparently deliberate goal of finding nothing in common rhythmically among the lines. Skillful scansion is a three-dimensional process, the creation of a kind of hologram, whose goal is to capture the pulse that ties a metrical passage together. Occam's razor applies to scansion probably more closely than to other areas of literary inquiry. If you are going to bother to scan some verse and want to do it justice, you need to find the simplest way to transcribe the shared rhythmic groove by listening to the passage as a whole, if it will let you. In this case, it will let you. These lines of Kirby's DO share a common beat, audible to a metrically-trained ear, and sure, you can mark 'em up and "scan" them as anapestic or trochaic lines or whatever you want, have a field day, but the fact is that the only metrical context in which they could all appear together is iambic pentameter, and each of them can fit in that context with no distortion (one of the reasons some people (not me) like the meter so much is because it can encompass so many variations). n other words,in this case, only iambic pentameter explains the rhythmic beat that ties this quatrain together. So iambic pentameter is the most "correct" scansion, in the sense that it is the most intelligent scansion--not because you can't mark up the accents dozens of other ways, but because only iambic pentameter transcribes the SHARED groove, rhythm, beat, of each line. These are not very weird iambic pentameters, either, as I said earlier; If I had time I am sure I could find exact metrical analogues of each of these lines in the blank verse of, say, Frost. So the scansion you posted lacks an overarching vision or ear, and it also lacks sophistication, in that it misses very obvious conventions of the meter (the caesura followed by a trochee, iamb, and extra-syllable ending in the last line, for instance, is not at all unusual in i.p.; to call it caesura dactyl trochee reveals your ear's lack of familiarity with the conventions, as does your not hearing the first line as a headless (acephalous) iambic, also a common variation. This all sounds abstract but is really just a way of transcribing a physical beat that is quite palpable if your ear knows what to look for, like listening for the chord progressions in jazz. Admittedly, scansion is subjective, but it's not COMPLETELY subjective, and there are some cases where to insist on subjectivity just reveals that you may not be as familiar with scansion as you think you are (an understandable mistake when hardly anyone knows anything at all about it and probably very few people could have come up with a metrical account as accurate as the one you did come up with) Dan, fyi, the spondees and caesuras wouldn't sink Kirby's Titanic, but a couple of trochees in the wrong places would (cf Halle and Keyser's classic essay "The Iambic Pentameter"). The tipoff for me that it really was iambic pentameter was the fact that the single trochee in the passage appears after a caesura--trochees (and dactyls) are the only thing you really have to watch in iambics, and you need to put them after caesuras or line-initially if you don't want to sink it. As for the whole issue of whether or when it is useful to look for meter in nonmetrical passages (sorry I forgot who posted about that--it was the person who knew that you can have an iambic pentameter with only 4 beats--was it Rob?)--here's a thought on that issue: meter is either there in a text or it isn't; contrary to how some people who are not very familiar with meter think about it, meter does have an objective existence; you can't merely will something into meter any more than you can will it into a certain key in music. And if it IS there, it's useful to talk about it to the same extent it is useful to talk about lyric subjectivity or alliteration or fractured stynax or any other poetic device: useful to discuss when it is used in a living way and interestingly, kind of boring to discuss if it's not. ---Annie who, far from being a hammer looking for nails, Tim, prefers to read poets who do NOT slip into meter unawares. . . At 10:47 AM -0500 1/23/04, Tim Peterson wrote: >I suppose if you're a hammer, then everything looks like a nail, but I >don't see much iambic pentameter in these lines either. I see a variable >meter that changes with each line. > >1: trochaic pentameter with a dactylic variation in the second foot >2: a barely iambic hexameter that could just as easily be called trochaic. >One iambic foot, one anapest, another iambic foot, a phyrric foot, and two >trochees. >3: anapestic pentameter, but it begins with an iamb >4: another barely iambic line, pentameter: iamb, anapest, iamb, caesura, >dactyl, trochee > >Meter is an imperfect way of transcribing sound in poetry, not an ideal >system from which we generate poems like automatons. > >Tim > > >Umm.. yup... >1st line: iambic pentameter, headless , anapest in third foot. 2nd line >iambic pentameter, anapests in second and third feet, extra-syllable >ending. 3rd line: iambic pentameter, 4 anapestic substitutions in last 4 ft >(heavily anapestic but could fit in easily in any post-mid-19th c. iambic >pentameter context) 4th line: iambic pentameter, anapest in second foot, >trochee in fourth foot (after a caesura, as is best to keep beat), >extra-syllable ending. >is this what you mean? They are all fairly standard modulations...nothing >very wild. >Annie >At 8:26 PM -0500 1/22/04, Daniel Zimmerman wrote: >Iambic >pentameter? > > > > > > > The Hermaphrodite > > > > > > > > > > > > Walking >slowly along the icy road > > > > > > She thinks of her babyhood with the >hippo father > > > > > > & swaddled in clothes how her clit like an >elephant's trunk > > > > > > Would wander about the room searching for >peanuts >> > > > > ___________________________________ Annie Finch http://www.users.muohio.edu/finchar English Department, Miami University, Ohio Care2 make the world greener! Help the planet each day! It's free and easy: http://www.Care2.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 14:53:28 -0500 Reply-To: olsonjk@delhi.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kirby Olson Organization: SUNY Delhi Subject: Re: Hermaphrodite poems, anyone? Comments: To: Joseph Thomas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Joseph, this is probably a better formulation. I don't often know that I'm writing for anyone or anything. It's almost as if I let it go and after the smoke clears I see what I have written. I write to go where I haven't gone before -- what Corso called "risked and fevered thinking." But I am teaching John Updike in the Great Writers Course and he says somewhere that he is writing for people somewhere west of Pittsburgh. This comment fascinated me. I didn't want to say that dress-makers can't write. But just that there's a limited amount of time available, and someone who is making dresses might not have time to write, any more than I have time to make dresses. It struck me as interesting that Updike is writing then in a broad sociological way -- I think mostly for Christians who are amused by the postmodern culture in which they find themselves, and often lapse. This is a huge audience -- I saw in the newspaper the other day that 87% of Americans consider themselves to be Christian. But that goes all the way from extreme liberals such as Unitarians to -- I don't know what's on the furthest right of the Christian spectrum. Missouri Synod Lutherans are way over there, I suppose, but there are also some Christians who aren't supposed to laugh and dance according to some movies I've seen, and Missouri Synod folks will do those two things in abundance. Our church is almost entirely about laughter it seems to me -- everybody is always laughing, and cracking jokes. The pastor is always doing this, too. I am myself quite interested in humor. I think you have to have at least one another person for there to be humor. It's difficult to write humorously on a board like this because often someone will take offense. To buy humor you have to accept the basic thinking of the one who's writing. Some will do this, some won't. I get a lot of positive backchannel email but also a lot of furious other posts. What interests me about humor is that you have to move to the limits of the other person's boundaries, but you can't cross them or they get mad as heck. So you need a fairly uniform audience who've basically accepted the same principles. I was wondering in general about humor's place in experimental poetry and in radical politics. It felt in the 60s that there was a lot more humor in the left. This appears to have vanished because someone will always take offense. In the Stalinist literature in fact the humorists were the first to be killed -- I think partially because in humor identities have to shift and in identity politics this terrifies people and causes basic categories to collapse. Zhdanov explicitly mentions various humorists in his template for a Socialist Realism and all those writers are dead or stop publishing shortly after he makes Social Realism into law. I think it's because humor switches identity categories, and for radicals, this may upset the whole system of who's in and who's out, who should die, and who should live, because it knocks out simple categories of identity. Like, for instance, when Steve Martin is black in the film The Jerk (is that the film?) -- when he is actually white. Well, he is actually culturally black in that he is being raised by a black family. But moving back and forth over that color line probably offends all kinds of people. Also, in films where the gender of a character switches back and forth as in Tootsie. This might offend all kinds of people. Meanwhile, I don't think you can have a community worth living in if you don't have a sense of humor together. To get to the point of actual friendship, that is to say, you have to laugh. Otherwise there is no point in the friendship. Hell, as I see it, is a place of agelasts (people who never laugh) while heaven is a place where laughter rings. So I see the writer as the person who brings the barber, the carpenter and many others together into the community of laughter. I see poetry and laughter as very closely linked. The only bit that seems to have made everybody laugh is when I brought in tallness. But I found this post sort of lame. I like to risk more than that. Other communities apparently form on the basis of piety, but I find that I can't fit into those communities very easily on either the right or the left. I sort of hate piety, as a result. It's strange -- even when I pray -- Christ just cracks jokes. I know there are some people who have other relationships with the guy, but I just crack jokes with him. My pastor says this is ok. For some reason, Stalin didn't like this sort of thing. Remember he sends Ivan Denisovitch to the camps for 8 years for cracking a joke. I think it's ok to crack jokes with God, but not with Stalin. I can't understand that, but am opening the question in case anybody can explain it. -- Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 15:22:13 -0500 Reply-To: olsonjk@delhi.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kirby Olson Organization: SUNY Delhi Subject: Re: Hermaphrodite poems, anyone? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii This is an amazing discussion of meter by Annie Finch. I haven't seen such a thing in a very long time. I enjoyed it immensely. I think what Annie is saying is that there is an almost Platonic ideal that the poet is somehow writing within (often unconsciously, as I certainly was -- but at the time I had written that hermaphrodite poem I was actually writing a lot of i.p. sonnets for kicks and to take part in a contest on another board, so they may have gotten in that way, too). I don't know for sure if I accept that you have to find the rhythm that the whole fits under and then generalize, but that's an interesting approach -- to find the bottom line, or the Platonic (?) ideal underneath the specific bounces. I did study meter long ago, but hardly give it a second thought, so bringing it in like this, when Annie has thought about it clearly for a great long time, certainly makes me rethink the business. I don't think her way of thinking about was in Paul Fussell. Is this bottom line method, Annie, something you've invented, or is it generally accepted among metrical specialists? I actually rather like it, as I would have counted on a case by case basis as Tim was doing. I was wondering if you don't establish ANY kind of established conventions with the reader (even a word is a convention, as I think we all know) then it would be impossible to communicate anything. This is the word salad of the asylum. When I read the posts of poets on this board it often strikes me as word salad. If you can't establish a convention, then I think it would be doubly hard to create a sense of humor because humor often plays off of conventions. No conventions, no humor. So perhaps that explains some of the problem with humor and experimentation? You then have Edward Lear's limerick which establishes the anapestic lines and the formal rhymes as humor, as you have formal arrangements for the clerihew. The sonnet is generally rather solemn. As experiment often seems to break down conventions, it may be that the possibility of humor is lost. It reminds me of weddings in Seattle, where nobody knew what the conventions were any longer -- things happened in an arbitrary order, the woman would throw her garter, and then a toast would be proposed, and thensomebody thought ok let's have the vows, and then finally you would get barbecued chicken wings and finally perhaps somebody would read Emerson and so the possibility of setting up an expectation, and then playing off of that was lost. You watched the thing nervously, waiting for it to get over with. On the other hand, years ago I was lost in reading Charles Olson. I thought it was word salad. And after a few years of tangling with it, I began to see the sense of humor. This bit did jump out immediately as humor, though. I don't know why it is funny, but it seems to be. Said Mrs. Tarantino occupying the yellow house on fort constructed like a blockhouse house said You have a long nose, meaning you stick it into every other person's business, do you not? And I couldn't say anything but that I do -- Maximus, p. 378 Now what would a metrical specialist say about this bit, I wonder. Is the idea then to have no regular meter whatsoever? Is there a regular meter underlying this? I'll have to get the Annie Finch book and read up. I loved this discussion, even though my poem is apparently not considered a breakthrough gem or instantly canonical masterpiece. Thanks to Brent Bechtel for his Freudian analysis of it, and all others who worked on it yea or ny, and thanks again to mIEKAL for requesting it. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 12:22:03 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Hermaphrodite poems, anyone? Comments: To: olsonjk@delhi.edu In-Reply-To: <4012CD37.2A2ECA0E@delhi.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >This is a huge audience -- I saw in the newspaper the other day that 87% >of Americans consider themselves to be Christian. Of whom 90% also consider themselves lions. >I was wondering in general about humor's place in experimental poetry >and in radical politics. It felt in the 60s that there was a lot more >humor in the left. This appears to have vanished because someone will >always take offense. In the Stalinist literature in fact the humorists >were the first to be killed -- I think partially because in humor >identities have to shift and in identity politics this terrifies people >and causes basic categories to collapse. Zhdanov explicitly mentions >various humorists in his template for a Socialist Realism and all those >writers are dead or stop publishing shortly after he makes Social >Realism into law. Conflation of current leftists and non-mainstream poets with Stalinism seems a stretch. Rather like conflating current Lutherans with witch-hunters, chuckling all the way to the stake. That was leftist humor, in case you didn't know. Mark ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 12:24:16 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: query--gendered expletive Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Any thoughts on why the expletives "boy" and "man" as in "oh boy," or "oh man?" Scholarship appreciated, but fancy gratefully accepted. Mark ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 15:38:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Poems by others: Besmilr Brigham, 3 sections fr. *Agony Dance . . .* MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit xii angels of the stone the men watch the men do not dance their hands move toward the women are they silent winders of the keys the carvers who with harsh durable stroke a delicacy the fingers touching/cut clear the brief markings that make form to the angels' spread loved and protective wings do their quiet breaths breathe a movement that moves in eyes of the fierce rock where she stands quick as a leaf that has fallen xiii strange poets who die in their beds under the covers their thin drained bodies watching eyes motionless as cattle standing their brittle pierced flesh in cold bucking the subways minds end--at the end of the line they crawl on drunken stairs up (up fall the steps, can be any time hypo needles the brain rages the woods of stars their feet walk in the old man hitting his son's knowing face and lie outside a door fear the living can't open the living shut in a room against all the tight boats lost in the wind los barcos flesh does not go down like an evening star it runs on wild train wheels over an air-filled trestle, logs breaking together raft on (thrown and caught held-still in consequence waves drowned in guilt the little potients can ease over a mind a hand how can we break from our own tightness erase the deliberation that separates you who went will-wise down your own ways of fulfillment the surface is calm, look at the suspended wing the little close work a man without thought made xiv when a man dies the women they do not cross themselves (beyond prayer they have come beyond god's point in the dense tree woods empty glasses tingling with snow melt water does not turn to wine they turn their faces to the earth the beauty of touched earth they sit loving angels all flesh) content with the never placid earth --Besmilr Brigham fr. *Agony Dances: death of the (Dancing Dolls* [Portland: Prensa de Lagar, 1969] Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard@earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 13:40:47 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: CE Putnam Subject: Re: Considerations on the Hermaphrodite In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii It is interesting to note the number of posts that dealt with the "metrics" / "scanning" of Mr. Kirby's "poem" I am reminded of the way a crippled Undergraduate Poetry wkshop might discuss "line break" or other formal elements of a poorly thought out and executed poem about (for example) "the pathos of a homeless person" (the easy shock, easy ramped up emotion, easy laugh, etc that does nothing! ) -- and not talk about how problematic the text/subject itself is being construted / set up + Dionysian?... come on! I face the chalk every day... and construct beautiful orgasms: fireworks, rice, angora & more! -ce --- kari edwards wrote: > On Saturday, January 24, 2004, at 08:31 AM, Brent > Bechtel wrote: > > > The last two lines of Kirby Olson's poem on the > hermaphrodite, and > > especially the last line, cause me to give it a > dual reading: Where in > > addition to "Would wander about the room searching > for peanuts" - I > > also get "Would wander about the room searching > for penis" > > > > Since it's a hermaphrodite poem, it makes me think > of those > > hermaphrodites with the greatly enlarged clitoris > - as though > > searching to become a penis. > > > > > > Wait. That sounds quite Freudian, doesn't it? > no it sounds ignorant, heterosexual, insensitive > and thoughtless..... > > its no wonder the f....ing president can get away > with trying to pass > an amendment against homosexual marriage... because > of thoughtless > insensitive thinking as this... it seems way to easy > to speak of the > intersexed without an once of insight... who on this > list is..?and how > does it feel to have the term "hermaphrodites" > used.. would anyone talk > about race like this.. no!!!! gender and > "hermaphrodites" are easy word > to bash around like is a volley ball and you are in > a compitition > > > I have sat by and watched this lame banter on gender > and > "hermaphrodites"... and I do truly see this world as > hopeless when not > one person even question sthe construct of the > language of > hermaphrodite.. > > this is way to easy and on the surface nothing but > chatter on the air > ways.. it neither speaks of substance or > relationships > > it all reminds me of some spam I got today: > "Ejacu.late Like A P0RN > Star!..." > > come on, get real .. you trough these terms around > like gender and > "hermaphrodites" and not one comment goes beyond the > surface... > > kari > > http://www.planetout.com/pno/splash.html > Study: Genes may trump nurture with intersex > kidsRandy Dotinga, > Gay.com / PlanetOut.com Network > Friday, January 23, 2004 / 05:34 PM > Sex-change operations aren't just for grown-ups. A > tiny number of > newborn baby boys go under the knife when their > genitals are so > malformed that surgeons figure it's better to raise > them as girls. But > a new study suggests that switching genders is > hardly so simple. > Researchers found that eight of 14 boys who grew up > as females later > declared themselves to be male. Nurture, it seems, > couldn't beat out > nature, at least in most of the children. > *It certainly will make doctors think twice before > rapidly performing > genital surgery on intersex children,* said Dr. Eric > Vilain, a genetics > expert at the University of California at Los > Angeles. *Hopefully, the > doctors will wait to see which gender develops > before performing > surgery.* > The fate of so-called *intersex* children has long > been a major topic > of debate. What do you do with babies who are born > with birth defects > that make it difficult to recognize their gender? > About one of every 3,000 babies has a more serious > problem -- severely > malformed or so-called *ambiguous* genitalia. The > gender of the child > may not be obvious, and the babies often appear to > be both male and > female. > In the past, influential psychologists theorized > that *gender identity* > had everything to do with environment: Raise an > intersex boy as a girl, > maybe with the help of surgery and hormone > treatments, and he -- she -- > will grow up to think and act like a woman. > This approach didn't always work. In a famous case > documented in the > book *As Nature Made Him: The Boy Who Was Raised as > a Girl,* a Canadian > boy who suffered a botched circumcision was operated > upon and raised as > a girl. He suffered through a tortured adolescence > and later chose to > live as a man and get married. > In reality, *Nature as well as nurture affects your > gender identity,* > says Dr. Melvin Grumbach, a pediatrician and > professor emeritus at the > University of California at San Francisco. 8It's not > all one or another > -- and in an individual, you can not be sure what is > the deterministic > factor.* > In the new study, researchers spent several years > following the lives > of 16 children who were born with a defect known as > cloacal exstrophy > that left them without normal penises. All the > children are genetically > male; all but two underwent surgery to remove their > testes (which were > inside their bodies) and create female genitalia. > The findings of the study appear in the Jan. 22 > issue of the New > England Journal of Medicine. > The two children with intact testes were raised as > boys and continued > to think of themselves as males. The other 14 were > raised as girls, and > even their birth certificates reflected their new > genders. > Eight of the 14 later declared themselves to be > male, and six of them > said they wanted to undergo sex-change surgery to > gain penises. All 14 > had some male traits: They had trouble interacting > with girls (but not > boys), and they reported little interest in playing > with dolls or > playing house. > *In normal genetic and hormonal males, there's a > rather district > likelihood that their brain has been masculinized, > both in terms of > their behaviors and their identity, how they see > themselves,* said > study co-author Dr. William G. Reiner, a pediatric > urologist at > University of Oklahoma Health Sciences Center. > Experts said the study provides more evidence that > psychologists and > doctors need to tread carefully as they decide > whether to *assign* an > intersex child to a particular gender at birth. > *What's critical for all of us as surgeons is to > operate when > operations are indicated,* Reiner said. *If we don't > know if they're > indicated, we should be careful about doing them.* __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 09:34:03 +1100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alison Croggon Subject: Re: Hermaphrodite poems, anyone? In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi mIEKAL An "objective" idea of an audience is an abstract fantasy, surely? The only audience I would say is not abstract is an audience you know personally; and I guess most of us would write with some idea of someone specific whom we would like to read our work, even if that person is fictional or a fictional aspect of ourselves, and that seems to me a useful way of imagining a writerly self. But I suppose I think that writing "for" an audience of any kind means second guessing what they like, which seems to me a perilous enterprise, since people are usually more complex than we like to think they are. At the crass end it's just about marketing and has whiskers all over it: there are all those magazines for example which tell you how to "write for an audience", which basically means formulaic thinking, and I think even in the area of popular fiction they get it wrong. Aren't there other desires which motivate the act of writing? Best A On 24/1/04 11:39 AM, "mIEKAL aND" wrote: > what's an example of an abstract idea of an audience & one of a > "objective" idea of an audience? I'm curious where my fantasy of > "audience" lies in this schema. Alison Croggon Editor, Masthead http://www.masthead.net.au Home page http://www.alisoncroggon.com Blog http://alisoncroggon.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 18:29:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sina Queyras Subject: anne carson MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello out there, Does anyone have contact information for Anne Carson? Please backchannel. Sina Sina Queyras Creative Writing Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey queyras@rci.rutgers.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 22:34:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: full text edit of the internet text MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII full text edit of the internet text p leipzig exit p p leipzig warsaw ed b.de potsdam b.de sb.de warsaw sb.de ed c.de mv c.de sc.de warsaw sc.de leipzig warsaw d.de ed d.de warsaw d.de potsdam d.de sd.de ed e.de warsaw e.de potsdam e.de se.de leipzig ed f.de potsdam f.de fs.de; ed g.de potsdam g.de gs.de; ed h.de potsdam h.de sh.de; potsdam gs.de sg.de; leipzig mv fs.de sf.de leipzig potsdam i.de si.de; ed si.de warsaw s?.de leipzig ed j.de mv j.de sj.de ed k.de potsdam k.de sk.de; ed l.de potsdam l.de sl.de; ed m.de potsdam m.de sm.de; ed n.de warsaw n.de; potsdam o.de so.de; ed so.de mv p.de sp.de; ed sp.de potsdam q.de sq.de; ed sq.de potsdam r.de sr.de; ed sr.de leipzig potsdam s.de ss.de ed ss.de warsaw ss.de potsdam t.de st.de ed st.de potsdam u.de su.de; ed su.de warsaw su.de leipzig warsaw s?.de leipzig cat s?.de > second.de warsaw second.de ed second.de leipzig warsaw s?.de leipzig warsaw first.de second.de warsaw /image leipzig warsaw /w leipzig warsaw | more leipzig ?? leipzig ?? > /regex/twoletter.de warsaw a? /regex/ warsaw b? /regex/ warsaw /regex leipzig pico twoletter.de ed twoletter.de potsdam berlin sah; ed sah leipzig > warsaw ftp panix.com leipzig ftp panix.com telnet panix.com leipzig less warsaw rm warsaw leipzig exit ls cd regex f p pwd leipzig warsaw fir.de warsaw first.de ed fir.de potsdam fir.de first.de warsaw first.de potsdam fir.de first.de warsaw first.de warsaw second.de mv am sam; ed sam potsdam berlin san; ed san warsaw san warsaw san warsaw s* leipzig potsdam berlin sap ed sap warsaw sap potsdam warsaw sba warsaw sba ed sba warsaw sba potsdam warsaw sbb; ed sbb cat s?? > third.de ed third.de warsaw third.de warsaw s?? leipzig less twoletter.de ftp panix.com warsaw exit more third.de warsaw /image warsaw cc /regex/ warsaw dd /regex/ warsaw ee /regex/ warsaw ef /regex/ warsaw ff /regex/ warsaw gg /regex/ warsaw hh /regex/ warsaw ii /regex/ cp jj /regex/ head third.de leipzig warsaw /regex/ head third.de leipzig potsdam warsaw scc ed scc mv warsaw sdd ed sdd warsaw ??? potsdam warsaw see warsaw see warsaw ?? leipzig cat s?? >> third.de tail see tail third.de leipzig warsaw third.de thir.de warsaw ??? leipzig ed warsaw cat ff >> third.de cat warsaw >> thir.de tail warsaw tail thir.de warsaw ff leipzig cat warsaw hh ii warsaw > jew warsaw jew warsaw ?? leipzig pico third.de ed third.de warsaw third.de thir.de warsaw thir.de warsaw third.de leipzig ed third.de warsaw third.de cp third.de thir.de ed jew warsaw jew cat jew >> third.de warsaw third.de cat jew >> thir.de warsaw thir.de warsaw jew leipzig head thir.de warsaw /image warsaw j? /regex/ cd /regex leipzig warsaw jj leipzig warsaw * ftp panix.com ftp panix.com ftp panix.com ftp panix.com leipzig warsaw thir.de warsaw j? cat j? > fourth.de warsaw fourth.de ed fourth.de warsaw fourth.de ftp panix.com leipzig warsaw j? leipzig warsaw /image leipzig k? warsaw k? cp k? /regex warsaw /regex leipzig cat k? > fifth.de warsaw fifth.de ed fifth.de wc fifth.de ftp panix.com leipzig warsaw k* leipzig warsaw * warsaw /image leipzig l? warsaw l? /regex/ cd /regex leipzig warsaw l? leipzig warsaw l? > sixth.de cat l? > sixth.de warsaw sixth.de ed sixth.de warsaw l? leipzig ed sixth.de warsaw sixth.de exit p s leipzig warsaw regex ed sixth.de warsaw sixth.de ftp panix.com leipzig warsaw /image warsaw m? /regex/ cd /regex/ leipzig warsaw m? cat m? > seventh.de warsaw seventh.de warsaw m? leipzig warsaw * ed seventh.de warsaw seventh.de ed seventh.de warsaw seventh.de warsaw * warsaw /image copy n? /regex/ warsaw n? /regex/ warsaw /regex leipzig warsaw dresden warsaw nj; ftp panix.com leipzig cp n? > eighth.de cat n? > eighth.de warsaw eighth.de warsaw n? leipzig ftp panix.com ls ed eighth.de warsaw eighth.de ed eighth.de warsaw eighth.de warsaw /image copy blood /regex warsaw blood /regex warsaw weather /regex warsaw fantasm /regex cp uncanny /regex leipzig | more warsaw past /regex warsaw /regex leipzig warsaw blood fantasm weather uncanny past > ninth.de warsaw fantasm warsaw past cat blood fantasm weather uncanny past > ninth.de echo "blood fantasm weather uncanny past" > ninth.de cat blood fantasm weather uncanny past > ninth.de ed ninth.de warsaw ninth.de cat ninth.de >> third.de warsaw third.de rm ninth.de leipzig warsaw * less regex.de leipzig warsaw regex.de warsaw regexindex.de leipzig leipzig rm fantasm blood past uncanny weather leipzig warsaw * s leipzig ftp panix.com leipzig leipzig p leipzig exit __ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 23:16:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Zimmerman Subject: Re: Hermaphrodite poems, anyone? MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I think of an audience of the words, by the words, and for the words--an audience that reads the black (both in Blake's pejorative sense in "The Everlastiung Gospel" and in some sense of willingness not to violate by insupportable paraphrase nor to reduce to fewer paraphrases than supportable) and the white (again, in Blake's positive, spiritual sense of "Divine Analogy" and in the more pedestrian commitment to identify and test logically necessary but implied, elided or suppressed enthymematic premises). ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alison Croggon" To: Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2004 5:34 PM Subject: Re: Hermaphrodite poems, anyone? > Hi mIEKAL > > An "objective" idea of an audience is an abstract fantasy, surely? The only > audience I would say is not abstract is an audience you know personally; and > I guess most of us would write with some idea of someone specific whom we > would like to read our work, even if that person is fictional or a fictional > aspect of ourselves, and that seems to me a useful way of imagining a > writerly self. But I suppose I think that writing "for" an audience of any > kind means second guessing what they like, which seems to me a perilous > enterprise, since people are usually more complex than we like to think they > are. At the crass end it's just about marketing and has whiskers all over > it: there are all those magazines for example which tell you how to "write > for an audience", which basically means formulaic thinking, and I think even > in the area of popular fiction they get it wrong. Aren't there other > desires which motivate the act of writing? > > Best > > A > > On 24/1/04 11:39 AM, "mIEKAL aND" wrote: > > > what's an example of an abstract idea of an audience & one of a > > "objective" idea of an audience? I'm curious where my fantasy of > > "audience" lies in this schema. > > > > Alison Croggon > > Editor, Masthead > http://www.masthead.net.au > > Home page > http://www.alisoncroggon.com > > Blog > http://alisoncroggon.blogspot.com > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 04:44:21 -0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "david.bircumshaw" Subject: Re: Hermaphrodite poems, anyone? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Perhaps Celan's poem 'Psalm' defines the ultimate audience: Gelobt seist du, Niemand. Dir zulieb wollen wir bluhn. Dir entgegen. Ein Nichts waren wir, sind wir, werden wir bleiben, bluhend: die Nichts-, die Niemandsrose. I can't put in umlauts in e-mail text btw. On the other hand it could be Vallejo's last volume that defines audience, to the all-world speak-to. Either way, the options aren't comfortable, Celan's leads to the River Seine, Vallejo's to a hospital bed death without a cause ascribed. Poetry is +frightening+. Its words invoke the deities of power. David Bircumshaw Spectare's Web, A Chide's Alphabet & Painting Without Numbers http://www.chidesalphabet.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Zimmerman" To: Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2004 4:16 AM Subject: Re: Hermaphrodite poems, anyone? I think of an audience of the words, by the words, and for the words--an audience that reads the black (both in Blake's pejorative sense in "The Everlastiung Gospel" and in some sense of willingness not to violate by insupportable paraphrase nor to reduce to fewer paraphrases than supportable) and the white (again, in Blake's positive, spiritual sense of "Divine Analogy" and in the more pedestrian commitment to identify and test logically necessary but implied, elided or suppressed enthymematic premises). ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alison Croggon" To: Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2004 5:34 PM Subject: Re: Hermaphrodite poems, anyone? > Hi mIEKAL > > An "objective" idea of an audience is an abstract fantasy, surely? The only > audience I would say is not abstract is an audience you know personally; and > I guess most of us would write with some idea of someone specific whom we > would like to read our work, even if that person is fictional or a fictional > aspect of ourselves, and that seems to me a useful way of imagining a > writerly self. But I suppose I think that writing "for" an audience of any > kind means second guessing what they like, which seems to me a perilous > enterprise, since people are usually more complex than we like to think they > are. At the crass end it's just about marketing and has whiskers all over > it: there are all those magazines for example which tell you how to "write > for an audience", which basically means formulaic thinking, and I think even > in the area of popular fiction they get it wrong. Aren't there other > desires which motivate the act of writing? > > Best > > A > > On 24/1/04 11:39 AM, "mIEKAL aND" wrote: > > > what's an example of an abstract idea of an audience & one of a > > "objective" idea of an audience? I'm curious where my fantasy of > > "audience" lies in this schema. > > > > Alison Croggon > > Editor, Masthead > http://www.masthead.net.au > > Home page > http://www.alisoncroggon.com > > Blog > http://alisoncroggon.blogspot.com > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 11:45:52 -0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "david.bircumshaw" Subject: The Voyage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've worked at this for years, and the thing still won't come out right. It's partly because of the collision with that inhospitable territory of strict form, the invocations of power that are implicit in that evil land, partly too due to the problems of translation, especially when elements of what one is translating are full of fustian rhetoric, but also simultaneously great poetry, bit of a problem that. Here it is: THE VOYAGE I For a small boy, enamoured of maps and stamps, his universe equals his hunger, so he thinks. Ah! how the world looms large in the light of lamps. But in memory's eyes how small it shrinks. One day, it's go, shaken from dreaming graves, hearts swollen with rancour's sour emotions. Forward, yes, chasing on the rhythms of waves, rocking towards infinity on a finite ocean. Some, spurning the pomps of patriotic lies, others, their cradles nightmares, others yet, who mapped the stars yet fell in lovers' eyes, fled from the web of Circe's perfumed net. But the truest travellers are those who leave so that they leave, hearts light like balloons, on their fatal fate they neither brood nor grieve, crying, without knowing why, "Let's be gone." Those whose wishes are undefined by bounds, whose dreams cloud and dawdle in a coded game, on vast shifting pastures, unknown sounds that human mouths have never shaped to name. II We mimic, oh mercy, spinning tops and balls, waltzing automatons, even as our dreams run curiosity torments, goads, forces and enthrals like an angel of sadists whipping on the sun. Choice part of destiny where the aim's displaced, never anywhere, but somewhere else, that's best, where man, who never lets hope be, debased and crazed, runs in rounds in search of rest. The soul's a three-master straining for Icaria. A voice booms as the jib turns: "Look, over there." High as the crow's nest shrieks out loud: "It's a ...." What? Love - happiness? Hell, it's rock, and bare. Each Eldorado fashioned by the look-out's cries throngs with the brief ghosts of starved desires; imagination slobbers on its promised orgies but finds instead but scars of starry fire. O poor pouting lover of faded chimeras, should we calm him with chains, or throw to the gulf this sot-headed tar, this founder of Americas, whose fictions flounder in sunken bitter depth? III Unlikely adventurers. What ironic narratives we rummage from shy eyes, deep as the seas. Show us your jewel-hoards, stars of brief lives, your sullen store-houses, your plunder-stories. Surrender your gaiety to our days that fail, let us follow you without canvas or coal, tracking your memories on the horizon's trail, tacking like set sail, forcing on our souls. And say, what did you see? IV "We have seen stars dissolve in waves, and stilled tides of dunes, yet despite shock windfalls, unseen disasters, most days left us bored, stale like old tunes. Daily extinctions of sun empurpling cloud, light studding distant rigs of shore towns, tugged us like mirrors onto trackless roads where rare air's lack the snagged soul drowns. The walled wealth of ages, the widest landscape could never tell the stories of the hold that clouds on us and chance construction shape, confounding anxieties with desires untold. Joy shapes, thickens, turns and feeds desire, DESIRE, old tree our pleasure serves and forms, as your gross bark stiffens, hardens higher, so your branches twist towards a sky of storms. We cannot lose the sickness fouling everywhere, having found in all parts, unlike or akin, from top to bottom of the mould-green ladder, the dull displays of daily immortal sin: the eager smiling torturer, the sobbing martyr; the piled banquet seasoned and scented with blood; the slow poison of power sapping the dictator and masses clamorous for the jackboot's thud. Jumbles of religion, all second-hand sales, barnstorming the skies, as the drooping head of sanctity slavers for hairshirts and nails, sick to the soul, slumped on a feather-bed. Slobbering manikin mimicry, drunk mirror, acting Prince of Fools who need not rehearse, bawling to sky-god on sky-god this law: O my brother, O my Lord, I thee curse. And the lesser sots, grimy courtiers of fate, shunning the herded souls of common hell, dive into the blue arms of an opiate. Such is world-wide our bulletin perpetual!" This is the bitter savour of our voyage, the petty monotonous world, today, tomorrow, yesterday, all alike, echoes to our image: in a wasteland of boredom lurks an oasis of horror. V To go or not? Which, what? Stay, if you can; go, if you must. You, there, run. You, you duck, to slip the tireless timeless enemy of man, that races without rest or breath: the clock. Like the lost apostle or the Wandering Jew, whom nothing will suffice, not horse nor vessel, to flee earth's bestial story, while but a few expunge a tyrant, yet never quit the cradle. When time's thick boot stomps on our vertebra, we can crawl to the edge and croak: Forwards! Like once, when we set sail for imagined China, gorging on horizons, the air quivering with words, our hearts light as cork, navigating the unreal with guileless greed, like an innocent beast. Listen to this double voice, tinkling, funereal, that rings and chants: "This way! You who would feast on perfumed lotus, on drowsy blossom, taste the laden fruits for which your soul has famished; drink deep beyond your fill on the sweet waste here in the never-was and never-vanished!" VI Death, gross Kapitan, it's time! Raise anchor, Monsieur Le Mort, this landscape bores us - let's be gone! If skies and seas are black, like a spreading tumour, our hearts are bright, childish coloured crayon. Pour us your poison, deliver us from thirst. What matter, as the fire in our brains burns through, What's next? Heaven or Hell, the best or the worst? But at the last of who to find something new! David Bircumshaw Spectare's Web, A Chide's Alphabet & Painting Without Numbers http://www.chidesalphabet.org.uk ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 07:30:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Zimmerman Subject: Re: Hermaphrodite poems, anyone? MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT By which I mean, I think of myself as the poem's first audience--and not necessarily its best one, either. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Zimmerman" To: "UB Poetics discussion group" Cc: "Daniel Zimmerman" Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2004 11:16 PM Subject: Re: Hermaphrodite poems, anyone? > I think of an audience of the words, by the words, and for the words--an > audience that reads the black (both in Blake's pejorative sense in "The > Everlastiung Gospel" and in some sense of willingness not to violate by > insupportable paraphrase nor to reduce to fewer paraphrases than > supportable) and the white (again, in Blake's positive, spiritual sense of > "Divine Analogy" and in the more pedestrian commitment to identify and test > logically necessary but implied, elided or suppressed enthymematic > premises). > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Alison Croggon" > To: > Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2004 5:34 PM > Subject: Re: Hermaphrodite poems, anyone? > > > > Hi mIEKAL > > > > An "objective" idea of an audience is an abstract fantasy, surely? The > only > > audience I would say is not abstract is an audience you know personally; > and > > I guess most of us would write with some idea of someone specific whom we > > would like to read our work, even if that person is fictional or a > fictional > > aspect of ourselves, and that seems to me a useful way of imagining a > > writerly self. But I suppose I think that writing "for" an audience of any > > kind means second guessing what they like, which seems to me a perilous > > enterprise, since people are usually more complex than we like to think > they > > are. At the crass end it's just about marketing and has whiskers all over > > it: there are all those magazines for example which tell you how to "write > > for an audience", which basically means formulaic thinking, and I think > even > > in the area of popular fiction they get it wrong. Aren't there other > > desires which motivate the act of writing? > > > > Best > > > > A > > > > On 24/1/04 11:39 AM, "mIEKAL aND" wrote: > > > > > what's an example of an abstract idea of an audience & one of a > > > "objective" idea of an audience? I'm curious where my fantasy of > > > "audience" lies in this schema. > > > > > > > > Alison Croggon > > > > Editor, Masthead > > http://www.masthead.net.au > > > > Home page > > http://www.alisoncroggon.com > > > > Blog > > http://alisoncroggon.blogspot.com > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 10:14:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: sylvester pollet Subject: query--gendered expletive Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Mark, I was struck by an emphatic variation in Maine I hadn't heard before (from a WW II vet, neighbor) "Mister Man," as in "Let me tell you, Mister Man." I guess that's neither scholarship nor fancy, something more like field-work. best, Sylvester At 12:05 AM -0500 1/25/04, Automatic digest processor wrote: > >Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 12:24:16 -0800 >From: Mark Weiss >Subject: query--gendered expletive > >Any thoughts on why the expletives "boy" and "man" as in "oh boy," or "oh >man?" Scholarship appreciated, but fancy gratefully accepted. > >Mark ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 10:25:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Jen Hofer Sighting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Good Morning! Just spotted a delightful piece about Jen Hofer and her typerwriter collection in today's issue of the Los Angeles Times Sunday magazine -- I haven't checked the LA Times web site to see if that version includes the photo, but you'll enjoy the piece anyway -- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Breaking in bright Orthography . . ." --Emily Dickinson Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 09:50:02 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: Jen Hofer Sighting In-Reply-To: <200401251525.i0PFPMw05769@webmail1.cac.psu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v543) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Soul of the Old Machine Hearkening to the Poetic Song of the Typewriter January 25, 2004 Los Angeles Times =A0 ANDREW JOHN IGNATIUS VONTZ In our wireless-broadband-text messaging era of instant gratification,=20= the manual typewriter would seem about as relevant as the Pony Express.=20= But for Jen Hofer, poet, typewriter collector and escritorio publico,=20 the imperfection of pre-digital technology is the stuff of romance. "I like that you have to write a little bit more slowly than you do on=20= the computer," says Hofer, a Spanish speaker who owns 21 manual=20 typewriters and honors the Mexican street tradition of=20 letter-writing-for-hire by setting up her own booth on busy Los Angeles=20= thoroughfares. "I like the sound. I like the way the letters bite into=20= the paper. I like that they're uneven. I like that you can feel there=20 is a human being involved in doing it. I like the whole manual mess of=20= it." If all of this seems a bit seems a bit lyrical, perhaps it's the poet=20 in Hofer coming out. She studied writing at Brown University and=20 translation and poetry at the University of Iowa. Hofer, whose father=20 is Argentine, refreshed her childhood Spanish when she went to Mexico=20 City to work on an anthology of Mexican poetry. Today, the Cypress Park=20= resident works as a translator of Spanish language poems, fiction and=20 nonfiction. A frequenter of thrift stores and estate sales, Hofer paid just a few=20 bucks for her first typewriter, a Royal Quiet De Luxe. "I write a lot=20 of letters and so I started using this to write letters and poems," she=20= says. A collection was born that today includes four Smith-Corona=20 Sterlings, three Royal Quiet De Luxes, an Underwood Universal and two=20 plastic children's typewriters. "I don't play favorites with my=20 typewriters," she says. Except one, that is: an Olivetti Lettera 22=20 with a Spanish language keyboard that belonged to Hofer's grandmother. The 22 is the weapon of choice for Hofer's escritorio publico project,=20= a poetic undertaking that's as much literary performance art as a=20 professional sideline. Hofer sets up shop every 10 days or so with her=20= grandmother's typewriter, a folding table and a sign outlining her=20 prices=97$2 for a letter, $3 for a love letter and $5 for an illicit = love=20 letter. Hofer has written everything from love letters to an apology to the New=20= Mexico DMV for a man sending in a check past due. Takers range from=20 creative types who view her services as an art project to Spanish=20 speakers who don't bat an eye at what they view as a normal element of=20= city life. She lists her oddest commission as a letter for a student=20 applying to Stanford's master's of fine arts program. "The guy was=20 like, 'Yeah, so-and-so from Time magazine said he would write a=20 recommendation but he said, "You write it and I'll sign it." ' ''=20 Instead, Hofer says, the applicant "described his work to me and how he=20= knew the guy, and I wrote the letter." For Hofer, the point is sharing the power of the written word and using=20= language to bring people together. "The happenstance, incredibly=20 beautiful human connections I have every time make it worth it," she=20 says. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 10:54:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: it remains and will never leave MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII sadness it remains and will never leave it will never leave it is on my desk machine, it cries out for appearance nothing, nothing ... /var/spool/mqueue (1 request) -----Q-ID----- --Size-- -----Q-Time----- ------------Sender/Recipient----------- i0OIOMuN009075 8 Sat Jan 24 13:24 (Deferred: 450 : Sender address r) Total requests: 1 /var/spool/mqueue (1 request) -----Q-ID----- --Size-- -----Q-Time----- ------------Sender/Recipient----------- i0OIOMuN009075 8 Sat Jan 24 13:24 (Warning: could not send message for past 4 hours) Total requests: 1 i would tell you here and now its tiny message i don't remember what it said yesterday i said what it said i don't remember - ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 12:15:12 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dale Smith Subject: Conversation with Alan Gilbert Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" The second part of my conversation with Alan Gilbert is available now at www.skankypossum.com/pouch. Please check it out if you have a chance. Dale -- Dale Smith 2925 Higgins Street Austin, Texas 78722 www.skankypossum.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 10:26:12 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: query--gendered expletive In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed That one, at least, has female equivalents: missy, lady, girl (you go, girl). Also kid, kiddo. "Oh man" or "oh boy" are peculiarly ungendered in use (and don't indicate the gender of the audience): "Oh man, what a woman!" "oh boy oh boy let's eat." Fun stuff. What are you doing in the field? You'll freeze to death. Mark At 10:14 AM 1/25/2004 -0500, you wrote: >Mark, I was struck by an emphatic variation in Maine I hadn't heard >before (from a WW II vet, neighbor) "Mister Man," as in "Let me tell >you, Mister Man." I guess that's neither scholarship nor fancy, >something more like field-work. best, Sylvester > >At 12:05 AM -0500 1/25/04, Automatic digest processor wrote: >> >>Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 12:24:16 -0800 >>From: Mark Weiss >>Subject: query--gendered expletive >> >>Any thoughts on why the expletives "boy" and "man" as in "oh boy," or "oh >>man?" Scholarship appreciated, but fancy gratefully accepted. >> >>Mark ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 14:00:24 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Haas Bianchi Subject: Chicagopoetrycalendar.blogspot.com Comments: To: Jennifer Karmin , Jesse Seldess , Jesse Seldess , Brian Clements , Chuck Stebelton , HumeraA@aol.com, Joe Ahearn , Kerri Sonnenberg , Mark Tardi MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://chicagopoetrycalendar.blogspot.com/ Dear Chicago Area Poets and others interested in Poor Chicago; After last night's gracious event at Mary Margaret Sloan's (what a great event) for Ron S and Stacy S where most of Chicago's poets were present I decided that we too in poor Chicago should have a poetry calendar along with reviews. Until I can get up a proper website I am going to use this blog page. I would ask all Chicago area animators of reading series to send me your information on your readings and I will get it up on the the blog asap. I also ask you all to send me links as well and to send this blog site to everyone you know interested in Chicago poetry. I would also ask that you send me reviews of readings here in the area that I will post asap as well. We would also like any reading information from Cities close to Chicago such as Milwaukee, Madison, Champaign and Iowa City. Please send this to my home email saudade@comcast.net Thanks Ray Bianchi ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 14:06:12 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: Re: Hermaphrodite poems/EUNUCH poems/humor/typewriters/an early blog Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed A decade ago a friend of mine, Ed Schelb, poet and essaysist--suggested, given much of the atmosphere of the times-- why not Eunuch studies--poetics, poetry-- gallows humor--(Surrealists did an anthology of dark/black humor--) "Quatrain" By Francois Villon: Je suis Francois dont il me poise Ne de Paris empres de Pontoise Et de la corde d'une toise Scaura mon col que mon cul poise. I am Francois which weighs heavily on me (other trans: "which is my cross") Born in Paris near Pointoise From a fathom of rope My neck will learn the wieght of my ass. Burroughs, Celine, Rabelais, Hasek (THE GOOD SOLDIER SCHWEIK), Borowski (THIS WAY TO THE GAS CHAMBER),Ambroise Bierce, Richard Pryor on and on and on an endless parade of gallows humor-- for centuries--cultures--existing everyday around one-- Appreciate learning of Jen Hofer's use of typerwriters as have three to work with, all different ways one can space, fonts, weights of keys on hitting various weights of paper--the sounds of them-- so much one can do with them that one can't with the computer-- like sounds of mono records compared to vacuity of many digital recordings, with the dropped spaces in between-- (not to mention all the work done with them in concrete and sound poetries, in Olson--Larry Eigner--Bob Cobbing--a vast movement for sevral decades--e.e. cummings--the Typewriter Girls women's group dressed in forties secretary style, who will compose haiku spontaneously from audience suggestions--) an early blog: in Stefan Zweig's excellent bio, BALZAC--at one point Balzac decided to start his own journal this wd include fiction of his, then his ruminations on everything--politics, literature, fashion, mores, economics, technology--everything! it lasted but three or four months-- despite Balzac's growing fame-- it was his fiction alone people wanted--not opinions and judgements-- Marx noted that Balzac was the greatest writer on capitalism, the analysis of an entire society with the question of money at the core-- So wie das Welt Ein hat die Kinder Ander hat das Geld (apologies for my German, from memory--of hearing this--) So is the world one has children the other has money "honi soit qui mal y pense" --david baptiste >From: Mark Weiss >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: Hermaphrodite poems, anyone? >Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 12:22:03 -0800 > >>This is a huge audience -- I saw in the newspaper the other day that 87% >>of Americans consider themselves to be Christian. > >Of whom 90% also consider themselves lions. > > >>I was wondering in general about humor's place in experimental poetry >>and in radical politics. It felt in the 60s that there was a lot more >>humor in the left. This appears to have vanished because someone will >>always take offense. In the Stalinist literature in fact the humorists >>were the first to be killed -- I think partially because in humor >>identities have to shift and in identity politics this terrifies people >>and causes basic categories to collapse. Zhdanov explicitly mentions >>various humorists in his template for a Socialist Realism and all those >>writers are dead or stop publishing shortly after he makes Social >>Realism into law. > >Conflation of current leftists and non-mainstream poets with Stalinism >seems a stretch. Rather like conflating current Lutherans with >witch-hunters, chuckling all the way to the stake. > >That was leftist humor, in case you didn't know. > >Mark _________________________________________________________________ High-speed users—be more efficient online with the new MSN Premium Internet Software. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=byoa/prem&ST=1 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 14:59:45 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: ISBN + Library of Congress Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v543) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Answers to any of the following questions would be most helpful. Does anyone know a way for non-profit publishers to get ISBN numbers at a cheaper rate or for that matter free? Also I'm interested to know how much a Library of Congress number is used. Does it make sense to have both inside of books & how does one get those numbers? After 26 years of publishing Im thinking of having them on newly published books. mIEKAL 24/7 PROTOMEDIA BREEDING GROUND http://www.joglars.org http://www.spidertangle.net http://www.xexoxial.org http://www.neologisms.us http://www.dreamtimevillage.org "The word is the first stereotype." Isidore Isou, 1947. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 16:11:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lipman, Joel A." Subject: Re: ISBN + Library of Congress MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable mIEKAL -- When I purchased ISBN's some years ago for the Toledo Poets = Center Press I received a lengthy list of them, some of which I've given = to friends who have used them for other independent press projects not = associated with TPC Press. It might have been 25 numbers, perhaps = slightly more. I've not worried about the sequence matching up and = continue to draw down on that original list. So even though there is an = initial outlay, not inconsiderable, they can last many years, depending = upon how frequently you code new issues. Can't help with the NFP issue. = Joel -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group on behalf of mIEKAL aND Sent: Sun 1/25/2004 5:59 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Cc:=09 Subject: ISBN + Library of Congress Answers to any of the following questions would be most helpful. Does anyone know a way for non-profit publishers to get ISBN numbers at a cheaper rate or for that matter free? Also I'm interested to know how much a Library of Congress number is used. Does it make sense to have both inside of books & how does one get those numbers? After 26 years of publishing Im thinking of having them on newly published books. mIEKAL 24/7 PROTOMEDIA BREEDING GROUND http://www.joglars.org http://www.spidertangle.net http://www.xexoxial.org http://www.neologisms.us http://www.dreamtimevillage.org "The word is the first stereotype." Isidore Isou, 1947. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 16:16:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: shanna compton Subject: Re: Chicagopoetrycalendar.blogspot.com In-Reply-To: <000001c3e37d$df5654e0$388cad43@comcast.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit If you're looking for the software/etc. for your calendar, see Jackie Sheeler. She's generous with this, as she is with so much else, enthusiasm and love of poetry most of all. She's at jackie@poetz.com. http://www.poetz.com Stay warm, y'all. Shanna on 1/25/04 3:00 PM, Haas Bianchi at saudade@COMCAST.NET wrote: > http://chicagopoetrycalendar.blogspot.com/ > > > Dear Chicago Area Poets and others interested in Poor Chicago; > > After last night's gracious event at Mary Margaret Sloan's (what a great > event) for Ron S and Stacy S where most of Chicago's poets were present I > decided that we too in poor Chicago should have a poetry calendar along with > reviews. Until I can get up a proper website I am going to use this blog > page. I would ask all Chicago area animators of reading series to send me > your information on your readings and I will get it up on the the blog asap. > I also ask you all to send me links as well and to send this blog site to > everyone you know interested in Chicago poetry. I would also ask that you > send me reviews of readings here in the area that I will post asap as well. > We would also like any reading information from Cities close to Chicago such > as Milwaukee, Madison, Champaign and Iowa City. > > Please send this to my home email saudade@comcast.net > > Thanks > > Ray Bianchi ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 16:00:51 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Haas Bianchi Subject: Re: Chicagopoetrycalendar.blogspot.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit thanks I already wrote her Regds Ray > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of shanna compton > Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2004 3:17 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Chicagopoetrycalendar.blogspot.com > > > If you're looking for the software/etc. for your calendar, see Jackie > Sheeler. She's generous with this, as she is with so much else, enthusiasm > and love of poetry most of all. > > She's at jackie@poetz.com. http://www.poetz.com > > Stay warm, y'all. > Shanna > > > on 1/25/04 3:00 PM, Haas Bianchi at saudade@COMCAST.NET wrote: > > > http://chicagopoetrycalendar.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > Dear Chicago Area Poets and others interested in Poor Chicago; > > > > After last night's gracious event at Mary Margaret Sloan's (what a great > > event) for Ron S and Stacy S where most of Chicago's poets > were present I > > decided that we too in poor Chicago should have a poetry > calendar along with > > reviews. Until I can get up a proper website I am going to use > this blog > > page. I would ask all Chicago area animators of reading series > to send me > > your information on your readings and I will get it up on the > the blog asap. > > I also ask you all to send me links as well and to send this > blog site to > > everyone you know interested in Chicago poetry. I would also > ask that you > > send me reviews of readings here in the area that I will post > asap as well. > > We would also like any reading information from Cities close to > Chicago such > > as Milwaukee, Madison, Champaign and Iowa City. > > > > Please send this to my home email saudade@comcast.net > > > > Thanks > > > > Ray Bianchi > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 14:00:02 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: ISBN + Library of Congress In-Reply-To: <2B0A1C95-4F8A-11D8-8861-0003935A5BDA@mwt.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed For LCN: http://lcweb2.loc.gov/pcn/pcn001.html. ISBNs available from Bowkers, https://commerce.bowker.com/isbnsan/standards/cgi-bin/isbn.asp. Pricey, but as far as I know all ISBNs in the US go through them. 100 ISBNs $8oo.oo. And there's no time limit. Mark At 02:59 PM 1/25/2004 -0800, you wrote: >Answers to any of the following questions would be most helpful. > >Does anyone know a way for non-profit publishers to get ISBN numbers at >a cheaper rate or for that matter free? > >Also I'm interested to know how much a Library of Congress number is >used. Does it make sense to have both inside of books & how does one >get those numbers? > >After 26 years of publishing Im thinking of having them on newly >published books. > >mIEKAL > > > > > > >24/7 PROTOMEDIA BREEDING GROUND > >http://www.joglars.org >http://www.spidertangle.net >http://www.xexoxial.org >http://www.neologisms.us >http://www.dreamtimevillage.org > >"The word is the first stereotype." Isidore Isou, 1947. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 16:22:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Annie Finch Subject: bottom line scansion Comments: To: olsonjk@delhi.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Thanks, Kirby for your response to the meter post (and sorry, Kari, for absentmindedly helping keep that hermaphrodite subject header going so long--I see why you found it offensive!). Kirby, yes, the "bottom line" method of scansion--looking for the most encompassing groove of a passage instead of going line by line--is a very basic assumption of scansion--but probably that point didn't need to be made, until pretty recently, as explicit as I made it in my post. My guess is that the reason it isn't discussed in books like Paul Fussell's is that at that time it didn't need to be explicit because, until the last forty years or so, if any poem was metrical the poet would know that it was metrical and let the reader know very clearly that it was, so this level of archaeology/sensitivity wasn't necessary. It's the pushing of meter to the unconscious level, after a couple of generations of free-verse-raised poets had come up, some of them with meter a kind of unconscious compulsion surfacing at certain times, that has made this kind of approach more necessary-it is an approach based on a much wider palette of rhythmical options, none of them assumed--In other words, making this explicit enables a self-conscious, more pomo approach to scansion and also helps enable scansion of texts that may not be consciously metrical but are nonetheless still metrical. So, the answer is yes and no; this bottom-line approach is basically the method that would be used by anyone with facility in scansion, but it probably wasn't necessary to use it so creatively and actively until the last couple of decades. What you say about conventions applies very interestingly to meter... in a poem that holds very strictly to one metrical pattern with only one or two rhythmic variations/deviations, those deviations can have a GIGANTIC impact.on the poem. It's a very energy-efficient system in that sense. And, by the way, the non-iambic rhythms that Tim's scansion emphasized still have a major role in the meter of a poem, as "cross-rhythms" that add rhythmical interest to the basic meter--so an iambic pentameter line would be iambic pentameter in the context of a platonically iambic pentameter text, but if it could also be scanned another way, as trochees or dactyls, that cross-rhythm is still present in the line, even though it is not the way you would scan the line: just as in a piece of music in 4/4 time, you can have triple rhythms coming across certain bars that make the line much more interesting, but you wouldn't call those bars 3/3 time. This is, again, based on the energy generated by conventions.... Re the Olson excerpt, yes, I would think there is a series of regular meters underlying this---this is clearly the free verse of someone who knows meter well, and more to the point, the free verse of a poet for whom meter resonates with energy, impact.... >Said Mrs. Tarantino >occupying the yellow house >on fort constructed like >a blockhouse house said >You have a long nose, meaning >you stick it into every other person's >business, do you not? And I couldn't >say anything >but that I >do > >-- Maximus, p. 378 The first five lines are permeated by a three-beat groove--this is an accentual meter, a kind of oral beat, with only the accents mattering, not much regularity of syllables, giving it a casual feel, but a clear metrical drive...(the most common kind of accentual meter now is rap; it's a rhythm aimed at oral perception) Then two iambic pentameters, "you stick it into every other person's/business do you not? And I couldn't" (the first line is a totally regular i.p. with extra-syllable ending, the second line much less regular-- I scan it as a headless (skipping first unstressed syllable) i.p. with a long caesura (a rest, skipping a syllable) before "and," and an extra-syllable ending.) Then the last 3 lines of the passage when read aloud sound like a dogtrot iambic tetrameter, which seems to be on some level, through its metricality, perhaps accepting the accusation of having a public voice/presence/obligation.... If you look at my book The Ghost of Meter you'll see that iambic pentameter can sometimes have a lot of meaning when it pops up in free verse by certain poets (not all poets).......and it seems to have meaning for Olson. It seems like a reading of all the iambic pentameter lines in Olson might turn up some pretty interesting patterns of meaning....these two iambic pentameters: "you stick it into every other person's/business, do you not? And I couldn't..and then the final iambic tetrameter disguised by line breaks but with a very strong beat you can hear clearly, particularly following directly after two iambic pentameters and an iambic tetrameter opening the passage......one would have to reread all of Olson and study it all in terms of his "metrical code" (a term from the book) to hazard a guess as to what these meters might have meant to him, but it does seem as if they might be quite resonant for him. so in the Olson passage, there is no overarching metrical pattern as there is in your quatrain.....however, there is an interaction between three different metrical patterns--iambic pentameter, iambic tetrameter, and a 3-beat accentual meter (a kind of folk meter, with no definite number of syllables but a steady beat of accents), and this interaction itself is quite likely worth somebody investigating to see if and how it surfaces throughout Olsons' work.. . Annie >to find the bottom line, or the Platonic (?) ideal underneath the >specific bounces. I did study meter long ago, but hardly give it a second >thought, so bringing it in like this, when Annie has thought about it clearly >for a great long time, certainly makes me rethink the business. I don't think >her way of thinking about was in Paul Fussell. Is this bottom line method, >Annie, something you've invented, or is it generally accepted among metrical >specialists? I actually rather like it, as I would have counted on a case by >case basis as Tim was doing. > >I was wondering if you don't establish ANY kind of established >conventions with >the reader (even a word is a convention, as I think we all know) then it would >be impossible to communicate anything. This is the word salad of the asylum. >When I read the posts of poets on this board it often strikes me as >word salad. > >If you can't establish a convention, then I think it would be doubly hard to >create a sense of humor because humor often plays off of conventions. No >conventions, no humor. > >So perhaps that explains some of the problem with humor and experimentation? > >You then have Edward Lear's limerick which establishes the anapestic lines and >the formal rhymes as humor, as you have formal arrangements for the clerihew. >The sonnet is generally rather solemn. > >As experiment often seems to break down conventions, it may be that the >possibility of humor is lost. It reminds me of weddings in Seattle, where >nobody knew what the conventions were any longer -- things happened in an >arbitrary order, the woman would throw her garter, and then a toast would be >proposed, and thensomebody thought ok let's have the vows, and then >finally you >would get barbecued chicken wings and finally perhaps somebody would read >Emerson and so the possibility of setting up an expectation, and then playing >off of that was lost. You watched the thing nervously, waiting for it to get >over with. > >On the other hand, years ago I was lost in reading Charles Olson. I thought it >was word salad. And after a few years of tangling with it, I began to see the >sense of humor. This bit did jump out immediately as humor, though. I don't >know why it is funny, but it seems to be. > >Said Mrs. Tarantino >occupying the yellow house >on fort constructed like >a blockhouse house said >You have a long nose, meaning >you stick it into every other person's >business, do you not? And I couldn't >say anything >but that I >do > >-- Maximus, p. 378 > >Now what would a metrical specialist say about this bit, I wonder. >Is the idea >then to have no regular meter whatsoever? Is there a regular meter underlying >this? I'll have to get the Annie Finch book and read up. I loved this >discussion, even though my poem is apparently not considered a >breakthrough gem >or instantly canonical masterpiece. > >Thanks to Brent Bechtel for his Freudian analysis of it, and all others who >worked on it yea or ny, and thanks again to mIEKAL for requesting it. ___________________________________ Annie Finch http://www.users.muohio.edu/finchar English Department, Miami University, Ohio Care2 make the world greener! Help the planet each day! It's free and easy: http://www.Care2.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 17:39:13 -0500 Reply-To: olsonjk@delhi.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kirby Olson Organization: SUNY Delhi Subject: Re: query--gendered expletive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii A related linguistic incident is the hippy use of man in almost every sentence, man, like, like, man, Like, Man! I wonder if there are still people somewhere who speak in that idiom. Oh boy seems to express eagerness -- Oh boy, Cheerios! Whereas Oh man, seems to express sorrow Oh man, Cheerios? (as if to say, AGAIN?) Funny interesting question. Could it be partially a place holder, like saying, uh, uh, to gain time to figure out what you're going to say? Perhaps that is how "man" functioned in hippy speech. My two year old boy uses oh man all the time. He doesn't use oh boy, though, at all. I don't know where he got it from. I don't think the rest of us use this phrase at home, but I might be wrong. -- Kirby Mark Weiss wrote: > Any thoughts on why the expletives "boy" and "man" as in "oh boy," or "oh > man?" Scholarship appreciated, but fancy gratefully accepted. > > Mark ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 16:53:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Annie Finch Subject: Desperately Seeking LIsa Robertson Again In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" whoever you were who backchanneled me Lisa Robertson's new email address last month, would you (oops) please send it to me again? MANY THANKS! Annie ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 18:20:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: Re: ISBN + Library of Congress In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20040125135032.02efb720@mail.earthlink.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit $800 for 100 ISBNs (+ a $119.95 fee, according to their website)? Wow! Boog bought our ISBNS back in 1992, and paid $100 for 100. Must be nice for Bowker to have a monopoly. dak on 1/25/04 6:00 PM, Mark Weiss at junction@EARTHLINK.NET wrote: > For LCN: http://lcweb2.loc.gov/pcn/pcn001.html. > > ISBNs available from Bowkers, > https://commerce.bowker.com/isbnsan/standards/cgi-bin/isbn.asp. Pricey, but > as far as I know all ISBNs in the US go through them. 100 ISBNs $8oo.oo. > And there's no time limit. > > Mark > > > At 02:59 PM 1/25/2004 -0800, you wrote: >> Answers to any of the following questions would be most helpful. >> >> Does anyone know a way for non-profit publishers to get ISBN numbers at >> a cheaper rate or for that matter free? >> >> Also I'm interested to know how much a Library of Congress number is >> used. Does it make sense to have both inside of books & how does one >> get those numbers? >> >> After 26 years of publishing Im thinking of having them on newly >> published books. >> >> mIEKAL >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 24/7 PROTOMEDIA BREEDING GROUND >> >> http://www.joglars.org >> http://www.spidertangle.net >> http://www.xexoxial.org >> http://www.neologisms.us >> http://www.dreamtimevillage.org >> >> "The word is the first stereotype." Isidore Isou, 1947. > > -- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://boogcity.blog-city.com/ T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 18:23:37 -0500 Reply-To: olsonjk@delhi.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kirby Olson Organization: SUNY Delhi Subject: Re: bottom line scansion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Kirby Olson wrote: > Annie, I picked up your book called After New Formalism and read the > intro and your essay in this volume that you edited. I also noticed > that the Ghazal essay by Agha Shahid Ali, and essays by Dana Gioia and > Adrienne Rich are in the book. Moreover, I noticed that it was > published by Story Line Press, and that your first book of poems was > published by them. > > New Formalism seems to have gotten a bad rap for being associated with > conservativism. The looseness of the left, versus the tightness of > the right (a phrase I'm very loosely adapting from Mairead Byrne's > blog, which I read quite often, and which she attributes to her > ex-husband). Do you think that the formal qualities that you discuss > must be considered a rightist deviation? After all, Agha Shahid Ali > insists on the formal qualities of the ghazal, and yet he also seems > to hate America. Is it possible that the slovenly hippies and the > whole "back-to-nature" movement in America is responsible for the left > being pigeon-holed as loose, and unmannered, and even in many cases > unwashed (many hippies thought body odor was somehow better than > deodorant for some reason, and I suppose the vegans of today, or many > of them, carry on this characteristic smell and some don't even wear > underwear I've heard!). I think the back-to-nature movement meant > that people should try to be as much like farm animals (or wild > animals!) as they could manage. > > That was my general sense of it. > > At any rate, it may be possible that a more precise, orderly, > thoughtful left could exist, as opposed to the slovenliness of the > god-damned hippies and the legacy they've left this great nation. > > Unfortunately there is no index in your book or else I would look to > see what the new formalists (are you a new formalist!?) think about > WCW's variable foot. And also M. Moore's syllabics. Do you see a > possible left-wing version of the New Formalism, or some subversive > aspect to it, or do you just not care too much about that sort of > left-right business and all the pretentions to goodness the people who > are in those camps are pretending to have? > > I deeply appreciated your reading of the Olson bit. I could see and > most importantly hear what you are doing there, and what Olson is > doing. And I like what you're saying -- the unconscious rhythms that > poets adopt are also countable. But why are you aiming to get us back > to a knowledge of meter. If we become more aware of the aesthetic > qualities of sound and scansion, the formal properties of words' > acoustics, will this tie us into a deep tradition of some kind? Are > you a traditionalist, or just how would you characterize yourself, and > also new formalism, and the interplay between t he two of you. I > understand that Story Line Press is THE "New Formalist" press, and you > are publishing a lot of your work there. Do you actually think that > formal beauty matters in a poem? (I'm hoping you're going to say yes, > but I'm not going to hold my breath.) Are you actually interested in > aesthetics? > > That's fine with me. I'm not terribly political -- I am mostly just > trying to tease out concepts here -- how do you relate yourself to > formal traditions, and how do these formal traditions relate to your > vision of politics/asthetics? > > Thanks again for scanning the Olson poems. I wish I had a sense of > what is animating you and what is your overall program and how the > revival of metrics fits into this. Are you religious? > > I really enjoyed this discussion so far. You're actually talking > about poetry! Do you have an ideal poet in terms of somebody doing > great new innovative things with scansion, and yet also creating poems > that you think are thrilling? (I've sent for your other book but it may be ten days before it reaches this obscure outpost.) > > > -- Kirby Olson > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 18:27:03 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: query--gendered expletive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "My two year old boy uses oh man all the time.=A0 He doesn't use oh boy, though, at all." For your son "man" may be just a word, "oh man" an expression he is=20 practicing. "Boy" has a specific identity, himself, therefore he refuses to=20= enter the=20 language game with it. Murat ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 16:45:52 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Schuchat Simon Subject: Plus ca change MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In Lutheran Triangle, Loss of Privilege Breeds Bitterness By Daniel Williams THULUIYA, Germany -- Less than a year ago, Ismael Mohammed Juwara lived high in the food chain of President Adolf Hitler's Germany. He was a secret policeman feared and respected among his comrades and in his hometown, enjoying a cornucopia of privileges from the government. Now, as he scrapes out a living by selling diesel fuel illegally, he is a pariah in the new Germany. "We were on top of the system. We had dreams," said Juwara, a former member of the SS, the intelligence service that reported directly to the now-deposed president. "Now we are the losers. We lost our positions, our status, the security of our families, stability. Curse the Americans. Curse them." His is the kind of angry lament that can be heard all over central Germany, the region most devoted to Hitler. It is the area of tribes and clans that were closest to him and that could expect power and privileges from his government. As Germans following the Lutheran strain of Christianity, the people here enjoyed an added advantage, because Hitler had extended their long dominance here, although they represent only about 20 percent of the population. Hundreds of thousands of men from this area, now known as the Lutheran Triangle, joined Hitler's extensive security apparatus, including the army and multiple police and intelligence agencies. As such, they are mostly outcasts from the new governing system under construction by U.S.-led occupation authorities and their selected German political allies. Juwara has two strikes against him: He was part of a feared repressive agency and a high-ranking Nazi Party member. Such Nazis are prohibited from government posts, as well as new security organizations now being formed. Juwara, 46, was sitting in the police station in this town along the Tigris River one recent morning as new officers sat idle. Relations between the police and U.S. occupation forces are strained. U.S. officials stopped using them for guard duty because they were considered unreliable, and soldiers no longer patrol with them. "They think we should know everything that goes on here, but we don't," said Hafath Salah, the liaison officer with the Americans. In clannish Thuluiya, working for the Nazi Party government was often a family affair. Hafath is a cousin of Juwara. With them was Saleh, Hafath's brother, who said he once belonged to the Interior Ministry's general security section, another secret police branch. Hafath and Juwara escorted a reporter to an improvised diesel fuel station in a muddy field nearby. The men earn what they can by purchasing fuel and reselling it to truckers and farmers who don't want to wait in long lines at gas station. Along the way, Juwara talked about his life. He said he joined the Nazi Party in high school, enlisted in the army and then the secret police. His job was to watch over army personnel and opponents of the government in such conflicted locales as Munich, the large, predominantly Catholic city in the south, and Bremen in the Protestant north. When he married, the government supplied him and his wife with a bedroom set. Soon after, he received a free plot of land and a home-construction loan, which was converted into a grant when the second of his nine children was born. He bought cement at cost from a government warehouse. Health care, Juwara said, was supplied through Rashid military hospital, a special facility in Berlin reserved for security and military officers. Last winter, on the eve of the U.S.-led invasion, Juwara said, he received permission to travel abroad to get treatment for his son, 13, who suffers from a nerve condition that slurs his speech. When Juwara bought a refrigerator, he went to a market set aside for secret police families and got it at a discount. He drove a Peugeot supplied by his unit. During the past decade of economic sanctions, he received extra rations. Now, he said, "we cook beans left over from before the war." He said that before the war, he sold his house to finance construction of a larger one, then moved into a small rental home. After the war, he used up the construction money to support his wife and children. His new house is only half built. He is barely making ends meet, he said, explaining, "There are no jobs, certainly not with the Americans." People such as Juwara form the core of resistance to the occupation and the developing order, according to U.S. and German officials. Frequently referred to as Nazi remnants or dead-enders, they are resentful and unwilling to accept their lot quietly. For that, they make no apologies. "Was being a Nazi some sort of disease?" Juwara said, raising his voice suddenly. "Was serving the country some sort of crime?" In effect, Lutherans such as Juwara are experiencing the changes since the U.S. invasion as a revolution in which the long-suppressed Catholic majority is taking charge. "These people with turbans are going to run the country. What do they know? Germany needs people like us," Juwara bellowed. People had been crowding around to buy diesel fuel, but sales momentarily halted. Lutherans who served the deposed government often demonstrate their frustrations. In the Catholic south, they have rioted for jobs. In the Lutheran center, they have rioted for pay. Conversations with Juwara and some of his colleagues from the secret police indicate that they are not loyal so much to Hitler as to a subsidized, predictable way of life. Many people in Thuluiya, with a population of 150,000, benefited from life during the Hitler government. Big villas line the river and the land where houses sit was supplied free by the government. "Just about every family had someone working in security or the army or some government job," said Maj. Mahdi Obeidy, a member of the U.S.-appointed police force. "It was normal to join the Nazi Party. It was like a rule." Although Obeidy is a former Nazi, he was sufficiently low-ranking to qualify for the new force. Thuluiya escaped the war; U.S. troops rushed by to other destinations. They returned in June, having discovered that guerrillas had been hiding in the area. In the months since, U.S. forces have detained hundreds of suspects in and around Thuluiya. Yet townspeople say that rebels come and go freely, hiding in homes or among lush date groves. Besides his economic woes, Juwara expressed deep feelings of humiliation. He told of a trip to the Central Bank in Berlin on a quest for records of his account in Thuluiya. He said the bank records were looted after the war. "You know what they told me? 'You are from Thuluiya. You are a dog. Go and ask Hitler for the money,' " he recalled. "A few months ago, they would never have treated me like that. They wouldn't dare." He pointed out the house of a former colleague. It was empty. "Abu Falah has disappeared. The Americans are after him," Juwara said. "They think he is with the resistance. Maybe. He needs the money." At the field of diesel barrels, Juwara helped Saleh as customers complained that the price was too high. Hitler has his own troubles. He also sold his house. He was living with his brother, but the atmosphere grew tense because Hitler could not pay rent, so he moved to a cheap place. He sold the Mitsubishi that the Interior Ministry had supplied him. He has two wives and 10 children. "People say that the resistance pays to kill Americans. Pretty soon, that will seem like a good idea," he said. It is illegal to resell fuel in Germany, a fact Hafath suddenly remembered. As a policeman, he is supposed to stop it. "I tell them not to do it. "But," he said as he pulled the reporter to one side, "we all know each other here. We will have to live together when the Americans leave. What can I do?" --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 18:20:54 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Quartermain Subject: World On Fire by Charles Bernstein MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable NOMADOS is pleased to announce the puiblication of WORLD ON FIRE by CHARLES BERNSTEIN, with a splendid cover painting by = Susan Bee.. 24pp ISBN 0-9731521-9-2 $12.00 plus $2.50 p&p. "In a world where billboards fill the sky and household names rain down = with torrential indifference, Charles Bernstein shows us how to meet the = inferno with exhilarating wit and verve, humorous plays on familiar phrasing, = and nifty substitutions, as we fly our spaceships along the language tracks available to us." Meredith Quartermain *** Available = from SPD ***. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Many Nomados titles are now available from Small Press Distribution = (SPD) in Berkeley. Check their website. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Recent TITLES FROM NOMADOS (JANUARY 2004) FROM M-TAL=C1 by CHUS PATO. Trans. from the Galician by ER=CDN MOURE. = 44pp ISBN 0-9731521-8-4. $12.00 plus $2.50 for p & p. (A poet, who has always = shunned metaphor and lyric escapism, puts the world on poetic display and pulls = it apart in its complexity. Helena Gonz=E1lez Fern=E1ndez) =20 HI DDEVIOLETH I DDE VIOLET by KATHLEEN FRASER. 36pp ISBN 0-9731521-7-6 $14.00 plus $2.50 for p & p. (Fraser's linguistic play and = typographical invention have never been more assured and brilliant. Marjorie Perloff) = *** Available from SPD *** =20 DRAFT, UNNUMBERED: PR=C9CIS by RACHEL BLAU DUPLESSIS. 32pp ISBN = 0-9731521-6-8. $16.00 plus $2.50 for p & p. (Pr=E9cis proposes, "in the name of = gloss," a narrative accompaniment to the first 57 poems of DuPlessis's ongoing = series, Drafts, composing a different order of folding-on-itself than readers = have encountered thus far, one subjectively tensed between notions of summary = and draft. Louis Cabri) *** Available from SPD *** THE IRREPARABLE by ROBIN BLASER. 32pp ISBN 0-9731521-1-7. $12.00 plus $2.50 for p & p. (Who else but a poet, and not just any poet but = Canada's Robin Blaser, could take on that word "transcendence" and recuperate it = in the moment of a civic frame, one with the capacity to restore us to the "world" restless in world, the "where is" which is where we abide. = Er=EDn Moure) *** Available from SPD *** FORTHCOMING from TWO KINDS by SUSAN HOLBROOK BACKLIST SEVEN GLASS BOWLS by DAPHNE MARLATT. 24pp ISBN 0-9731521-5-X. $10.00 = plus $2.50 p & p. ("Home and the closeness of the beloved," she writes. = There can be no subject as important to the poet and the rest of us, and in = this lovely poem, Daphne Marlatt continuously achieves her best yet "homing = in." That present participle is our sweet clue to a mystery we are encouraged = to enter. Gladly. George Bowering) FAT CHANCE by DODIE BELLAMY. 40pp ISBN 0-9731521-3-3. $12.00 plus $2.50 = p & p (Bellamy's Fat Chance is pellucid, masterful prose, at once a = bodiceful of grainy secrets, a set of falsities, and a treasury of urbane/innocent candor. There are many reasons I read Bellamy, not least for the = rapidity of insight, mediumistic sprit, and her enormous, at times jocular, = tenderness. Lissa Wolsak) *** Available from SPD *** ISLAND OF LOST SOULS: A PLAY by KEVIN KILLIAN. 76pp ISBN 0-9731521-4-1. $16.00 plus $2.50 p & p. (Will Gabrielle Kerouac be able to protect the befuddled genius of her son, Jack, from Hollywood producers hot to make = a musical out of his masterpiece, On the Road, a book she herself wrote = while he was unconscious? Will she find love in the arms of ailing heiress = Sunny von Bulow? Killian exposes at every turn the tangled contradictions of modern life, the fragility of the individual talent, the weird panic = that ensues when suddenly you remember that many years ago you gave your baby away at the top of a waterfall) *** Available from SPD *** =20 WANDERS. Nineteen poems by ROBIN BLASER with nineteen responses by Meredith Quartermain. 40pp ISBN 0-9731521-0-9. $10.00 plus $2.50 p & = p. (A spring-coiled peck from Dickinson on the pitch-perfect cheek of = Marianne Moore. Daniel Comiskey ++ An amazing, even jaw dropping performance . . = . . her poems absolutely stand up to the challenge of Blaser's own . . . . = The sum of it is totally exhilarating. Ron Silliman) A THOUSAND MORNINGS by MEREDITH QUARTERMAIN. 90pp ISBN 0-9731521-2-5. $14.00 plus $2.50 p & p. (a serious-playful and engaging work in which = she weighs and sounds what presents itself outside a real window, inside language, and through verbal-emotional associations. This work creates = an osmotic border between seeing and writing, a realist hypnogogic passage between memory and today, between outside and inside, between now and = then. That anywhere is everywhere is proven once again with this brave, = enchanting book. Rachel Blau DuPlessis) Triple-starred items (***) available from SPD; all titles available from Nomados P.O. Box 4031 349 West Georgia Vancouver, B.C. V6B 3Z4 nomadosnomados@yahoo.com OR ORDER SELECTED TITLES FROM SPD - SEE LIST ABOVE =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D "Rhythm and meter are dangerous branches of learning. Some poets and = lovers of poetry refuse to think of them, and consequently live more = comfortable lives, and give less anxiety to their friends." Marianne Moore. = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Peter Quartermain 846 Keefer Street Vancouver B.C. Canada V6A 1Y7 voice 604 255 8274 fax 604 255 8204 quarterm@interchange.ubc.ca =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 23:23:13 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brent Bechtel Subject: Re: query--gendered expletive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This site will show you how to translate this and other idiomatic expressions into ... Lithuanian. So instead of the same ol' "Boy oh boy!" You can surprise your friends with "Berniuk-ei-berniuk!" http://www.lituanus.org/1994_3/94_3_06.htm But really, the idiom has its roots in pop culture, as it was originally rendered "Oh, Boy Wonder!" - a reference to Robin of the Batman comic. In time this was shortened, like many phrases, to "Oh, Boy!" or simply, "Boy!" (e.g. "Boy, is this swell!") It's used in making declarations to one's companions with the same kind of elation and intensity that Robin conveys to Batman - "Holy lexicographers, Batman - it's the neologism!" etc. ... -Brent ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Weiss" To: Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2004 2:24 PM Subject: query--gendered expletive > Any thoughts on why the expletives "boy" and "man" as in "oh boy," or "oh > man?" Scholarship appreciated, but fancy gratefully accepted. > > Mark ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 01:13:21 -0500 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: ??? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit any one know what race & gender the 'spirit' rover is.... drn... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 01:46:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Ennui. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Ennui. I sector. moved I into moved the into first the sector. first Throughout C:>\0. sector first moved. I C:>\0. moved. in moved midst the of midst second the Everywhere C:>\debug. C:>\debug. moved. beyond moved third the Within C:>\defrag. beyond. moved C:>\defrag. beyond. across moved fourth the WHERE sector. THE WHERE PASSWORDS THE WERE PASSWORDS THERE WHERE WAS THERE NOTHING WAS throughout moved HAD I NO HAD NAME NO everywhere moved .alan operations. = .alan tunnels = july. of Damage july. ennui-sector the operations. ennui-sector Ennui-sector: destroyed. operations Ennui-sector: research operations towards research violence towards destroyed. violence Ennui. Ennui. I moved into the first sector. Throughout the first sector I moved. C:>\0. I moved in the midst of the second sector. Everywhere in the second sector I moved. C:>\debug. I moved beyond the third sector. Within the third sector I moved beyond. C:>\defrag. I moved across the fourth sector. WHERE THE PASSWORDS WERE I moved across the fourth sector. WHERE THERE WAS NOTHING I moved throughout the fourth sector. WHERE I HAD NO NAME I moved everywhere in the fourth sector. .alan = tunnels of july. Damage in the ennui-sector operations. Ennui-sector: operations research towards violence destroyed. Ennui. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 07:51:52 -0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "david.bircumshaw" Subject: Re: Hermaphrodite poems, anyone? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Dan, fyi, the spondees and caesuras wouldn't sink Kirby's Titanic, but a couple of trochees in the wrong places would (cf Halle and Keyser's classic essay "The Iambic Pentameter"). The tipoff for me that it really was iambic pentameter was the fact that the single trochee in the passage appears after a caesura--trochees (and dactyls) are the only thing you really have to watch in iambics, and you need to put them after caesuras or line-initially if you don't want to sink it.< Anne, for your information, without wanting to upset your assumptions of being a superior and metrically trained ear, but the first line in Kirby's lamentable fragment STARTS with two trochees, that is to say a true 'foot'. After that line one does resolve into iambic beats. Afterwards, in its three following lines, it is just a fudge, a neither here nor there. But your statement about the single trochee in the passage - it begins, remember, WALKing SLOWly, is so inept a piece of pseudo-metrical analysis that it almost deserves an award. From my trained ear. David Bircumshaw Spectare's Web, A Chide's Alphabet & Painting Without Numbers http://www.chidesalphabet.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Annie Finch" To: Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2004 6:44 PM Subject: Re: Hermaphrodite poems, anyone? Responses to a few responses to the scansion issue & related topics: Tim, you put it well to say that meter is a way of transcribing sound and not an ideal or mechanical system. With that in mind, scansion needs to be sensitive. In your scansion of KIrby's lines, yes, you do account for each separate line in some kind of theoretically accurate metrical way....but this scansion you posted is not sensitive to the rhythmic dynamics of passage as a passage of verse. Scansion is not a linear academic exercise whose point is to line up a bunch of assorted feet in a row, as you do here with the apparently deliberate goal of finding nothing in common rhythmically among the lines. Skillful scansion is a three-dimensional process, the creation of a kind of hologram, whose goal is to capture the pulse that ties a metrical passage together. Occam's razor applies to scansion probably more closely than to other areas of literary inquiry. If you are going to bother to scan some verse and want to do it justice, you need to find the simplest way to transcribe the shared rhythmic groove by listening to the passage as a whole, if it will let you. In this case, it will let you. These lines of Kirby's DO share a common beat, audible to a metrically-trained ear, and sure, you can mark 'em up and "scan" them as anapestic or trochaic lines or whatever you want, have a field day, but the fact is that the only metrical context in which they could all appear together is iambic pentameter, and each of them can fit in that context with no distortion (one of the reasons some people (not me) like the meter so much is because it can encompass so many variations). n other words,in this case, only iambic pentameter explains the rhythmic beat that ties this quatrain together. So iambic pentameter is the most "correct" scansion, in the sense that it is the most intelligent scansion--not because you can't mark up the accents dozens of other ways, but because only iambic pentameter transcribes the SHARED groove, rhythm, beat, of each line. These are not very weird iambic pentameters, either, as I said earlier; If I had time I am sure I could find exact metrical analogues of each of these lines in the blank verse of, say, Frost. So the scansion you posted lacks an overarching vision or ear, and it also lacks sophistication, in that it misses very obvious conventions of the meter (the caesura followed by a trochee, iamb, and extra-syllable ending in the last line, for instance, is not at all unusual in i.p.; to call it caesura dactyl trochee reveals your ear's lack of familiarity with the conventions, as does your not hearing the first line as a headless (acephalous) iambic, also a common variation. This all sounds abstract but is really just a way of transcribing a physical beat that is quite palpable if your ear knows what to look for, like listening for the chord progressions in jazz. Admittedly, scansion is subjective, but it's not COMPLETELY subjective, and there are some cases where to insist on subjectivity just reveals that you may not be as familiar with scansion as you think you are (an understandable mistake when hardly anyone knows anything at all about it and probably very few people could have come up with a metrical account as accurate as the one you did come up with) Dan, fyi, the spondees and caesuras wouldn't sink Kirby's Titanic, but a couple of trochees in the wrong places would (cf Halle and Keyser's classic essay "The Iambic Pentameter"). The tipoff for me that it really was iambic pentameter was the fact that the single trochee in the passage appears after a caesura--trochees (and dactyls) are the only thing you really have to watch in iambics, and you need to put them after caesuras or line-initially if you don't want to sink it. As for the whole issue of whether or when it is useful to look for meter in nonmetrical passages (sorry I forgot who posted about that--it was the person who knew that you can have an iambic pentameter with only 4 beats--was it Rob?)--here's a thought on that issue: meter is either there in a text or it isn't; contrary to how some people who are not very familiar with meter think about it, meter does have an objective existence; you can't merely will something into meter any more than you can will it into a certain key in music. And if it IS there, it's useful to talk about it to the same extent it is useful to talk about lyric subjectivity or alliteration or fractured stynax or any other poetic device: useful to discuss when it is used in a living way and interestingly, kind of boring to discuss if it's not. ---Annie who, far from being a hammer looking for nails, Tim, prefers to read poets who do NOT slip into meter unawares. . . At 10:47 AM -0500 1/23/04, Tim Peterson wrote: >I suppose if you're a hammer, then everything looks like a nail, but I >don't see much iambic pentameter in these lines either. I see a variable >meter that changes with each line. > >1: trochaic pentameter with a dactylic variation in the second foot >2: a barely iambic hexameter that could just as easily be called trochaic. >One iambic foot, one anapest, another iambic foot, a phyrric foot, and two >trochees. >3: anapestic pentameter, but it begins with an iamb >4: another barely iambic line, pentameter: iamb, anapest, iamb, caesura, >dactyl, trochee > >Meter is an imperfect way of transcribing sound in poetry, not an ideal >system from which we generate poems like automatons. > >Tim > > >Umm.. yup... >1st line: iambic pentameter, headless , anapest in third foot. 2nd line >iambic pentameter, anapests in second and third feet, extra-syllable >ending. 3rd line: iambic pentameter, 4 anapestic substitutions in last 4 ft >(heavily anapestic but could fit in easily in any post-mid-19th c. iambic >pentameter context) 4th line: iambic pentameter, anapest in second foot, >trochee in fourth foot (after a caesura, as is best to keep beat), >extra-syllable ending. >is this what you mean? They are all fairly standard modulations...nothing >very wild. >Annie >At 8:26 PM -0500 1/22/04, Daniel Zimmerman wrote: >Iambic >pentameter? > > > > > > > The Hermaphrodite > > > > > > > > > > > > Walking >slowly along the icy road > > > > > > She thinks of her babyhood with the >hippo father > > > > > > & swaddled in clothes how her clit like an >elephant's trunk > > > > > > Would wander about the room searching for >peanuts >> > > > > ___________________________________ Annie Finch http://www.users.muohio.edu/finchar English Department, Miami University, Ohio Care2 make the world greener! Help the planet each day! It's free and easy: http://www.Care2.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 00:11:15 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: alexander saliby Subject: tres ennui MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable nalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalan= alanalanalanalana alanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalana= lanalanalanalanl lanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanal= analanalanalanalana alanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalnanalna= lanalanalanalanalan nalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalananalanal= analanalanalanalana aalananalananalanalanalanalanalanalanalananalanalanalanalanalanalanalanal= analanalanalanalanl lanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanal= analanalanalanalana alanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalanalana= lanalanalanalanalann n a ditto l a n a l ditto a n a l a n ditto a l =20 a n a l ditto a n a l a ditto =20 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 07:30:30 -0500 Reply-To: ron.silliman@gte.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Subject: Silliman's Blog Comments: To: WOM-PO , BRITISH-POETS@JISCMAIL.AC.UK, nanders1@swarthmore.edu, new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu, whpoets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ Coming to terms with elders: Ezra Pound's fascist cantos & Michael Rothenberg channeling Philip Whalen Ron Silliman forthcoming events Poetry & community - Tucson's Lisa Cooper Kaia Sand - Choosing between rough edges & smooth ones Jules Boykoff - A political poetry of linked verse Heather Nagamai's "The Agenda" - Rube Goldberg Objectivism & the furious stasis of local government An intro to Antennae Bizarre-Misreading-of-the-Week Award: Mike Snider The Philadelphia Progressive Poetry Calendar "Write Like Soap," a poem on which one could stake a career in Rod Smith's Protective Immediacy (Four free books from Roof Books @ the EPC) An opportunity to feel ambivalent: Twentieth-Century American Poetics, edited by Dana Gioia, David Mason & Meg Schoerke (how new formalism neglects poets born in the 1930s) Density, density, density - What is it & what is its opposite? (reading Armantrout, Berssenbrugge, Godfrey & Corbett) Poems, drawing & hotel stationery - Bill Corbett's collaboration with John King In Florida Curtis Faville on Dickinson-Niedecker-Moore-Armantrout http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 08:42:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Annie Finch Subject: Re: Hermaphrodite poems, anyone? In-Reply-To: <005701c3e3e1$43d0a5c0$8bf4a8c0@netserver> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" David, that's what line-initially means in my last sentence: at the beginning of a line--,,if a trochee happens line-initially or after a caesura, it doesn't break the meter....but since Dan was asking if anything could break the meter, if anything did it would be a trochee in mid-line, not after a caesura, not line-iniitally--which you will probably remember was Halle and Keyser's great discovery, yes? (though obviously plenty of poets break this rule and get away with it, anyway, as Thomas does in Do Not go Gentle into that Good night...all a question of ear). Though since I heard the whole passage as iambic and was using that bottom line method, I was scanning the first line of Kirby's poem as a "headless" iambic line with an anapest in third foot, which is much simpler to my ear in an iambic context than scanning it with two trochees, since it manifests the rising rhythm: (scansion: (omitted first syllable )WALK/ing SLOW /ly aLONG / the IC/ y ROAD) However, scanning it as two trochees and three iambs makes sense to me too, though in an iambic context I believe the general principle is to keep falling feet (trochees and dactyls) to a minimum as much as possible if you can easily scan it another way, which in this case you can. Of course you are entitled to your own trained ear. I've heard too many endless prosodic arguments to get into one. Annie At 7:51 AM +0000 1/26/04, david.bircumshaw wrote: > >Dan, fyi, the spondees and caesuras wouldn't sink Kirby's Titanic, >but a couple of trochees in the wrong places would (cf Halle and >Keyser's classic essay "The Iambic Pentameter"). The tipoff for me >that it really was iambic pentameter was the fact that the single >trochee in the passage appears after a caesura--trochees (and >dactyls) are the only thing you really have to watch in iambics, and >you need to put them after caesuras or line-initially if you don't >want to sink it.< > >Anne, for your information, without wanting to upset your assumptions of >being a superior and metrically trained ear, but the first line in Kirby's >lamentable fragment STARTS with two trochees, that is to say a true 'foot'. >After that line one does resolve into iambic beats. Afterwards, in its three >following lines, it is just a fudge, a neither here nor there. But your >statement about the single trochee in the passage - it begins, remember, >WALKing SLOWly, is so inept a piece of pseudo-metrical analysis that it >almost deserves an award. > >From my trained ear. > >David Bircumshaw > >Spectare's Web, A Chide's Alphabet >& Painting Without Numbers > >http://www.chidesalphabet.org.uk > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Annie Finch" >To: >Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2004 6:44 PM >Subject: Re: Hermaphrodite poems, anyone? > > >Responses to a few responses to the scansion issue & related topics: > >Tim, you put it well to say that meter is a way of transcribing sound >and not an ideal or mechanical system. With that in mind, scansion >needs to be sensitive. In your scansion of KIrby's lines, yes, you >do account for each separate line in some kind of theoretically >accurate metrical way....but this scansion you posted is not >sensitive to the rhythmic dynamics of passage as a passage of verse. >Scansion is not a linear academic exercise whose point is to line up >a bunch of assorted feet in a row, as you do here with the apparently >deliberate goal of finding nothing in common rhythmically among the >lines. Skillful scansion is a three-dimensional process, the >creation of a kind of hologram, whose goal is to capture the pulse >that ties a metrical passage together. Occam's razor applies to >scansion probably more closely than to other areas of literary >inquiry. If you are going to bother to scan some verse and want to >do it justice, you need to find the simplest way to transcribe the >shared rhythmic groove by listening to the passage as a whole, if it >will let you. In this case, it will let you. > >These lines of Kirby's DO share a common beat, audible to a >metrically-trained ear, and sure, you can mark 'em up and "scan" >them as anapestic or trochaic lines or whatever you want, have a >field day, but the fact is that the only metrical context in which >they could all appear together is iambic pentameter, and each of them >can fit in that context with no distortion (one of the reasons some >people (not me) like the meter so much is because it can encompass so >many variations). n other words,in this case, only iambic pentameter >explains the rhythmic beat that ties this quatrain together. So >iambic pentameter is the most "correct" scansion, in the sense that >it is the most intelligent scansion--not because you can't mark up >the accents dozens of other ways, but because only iambic pentameter >transcribes the SHARED groove, rhythm, beat, of each line. These are >not very weird iambic pentameters, either, as I said earlier; If I >had time I am sure I could find exact metrical analogues of each of >these lines in the blank verse of, say, Frost. > >So the scansion you posted lacks an overarching vision or ear, and it >also lacks sophistication, in that it misses very obvious conventions >of the meter (the caesura followed by a trochee, iamb, and >extra-syllable ending in the last line, for instance, is not at all >unusual in i.p.; to call it caesura dactyl trochee reveals your ear's >lack of familiarity with the conventions, as does your not hearing >the first line as a headless (acephalous) iambic, also a common >variation. This all sounds abstract but is really just a way of >transcribing a physical beat that is quite palpable if your ear knows >what to look for, like listening for the chord progressions in jazz. >Admittedly, scansion is subjective, but it's not COMPLETELY >subjective, and there are some cases where to insist on subjectivity >just reveals that you may not be as familiar with scansion as you >think you are (an understandable mistake when hardly anyone knows >anything at all about it and probably very few people could have come >up with a metrical account as accurate as the one you did come up >with) > >Dan, fyi, the spondees and caesuras wouldn't sink Kirby's Titanic, >but a couple of trochees in the wrong places would (cf Halle and >Keyser's classic essay "The Iambic Pentameter"). The tipoff for me >that it really was iambic pentameter was the fact that the single >trochee in the passage appears after a caesura--trochees (and >dactyls) are the only thing you really have to watch in iambics, and >you need to put them after caesuras or line-initially if you don't >want to sink it. > >As for the whole issue of whether or when it is useful to look for >meter in nonmetrical passages (sorry I forgot who posted about >that--it was the person who knew that you can have an iambic >pentameter with only 4 beats--was it Rob?)--here's a thought on that >issue: meter is either there in a text or it isn't; contrary to how >some people who are not very familiar with meter think about it, >meter does have an objective existence; you can't merely will >something into meter any more than you can will it into a certain key >in music. And if it IS there, it's useful to talk about it to the >same extent it is useful to talk about lyric subjectivity or >alliteration or fractured stynax or any other poetic device: useful >to discuss when it is used in a living way and interestingly, kind of >boring to discuss if it's not. > >---Annie >who, far from being a hammer looking for nails, Tim, prefers to read >poets who do NOT slip into meter unawares. . . > > > >At 10:47 AM -0500 1/23/04, Tim Peterson wrote: > >I suppose if you're a hammer, then everything looks like a nail, but I > >don't see much iambic pentameter in these lines either. I see a variable > >meter that changes with each line. > > > >1: trochaic pentameter with a dactylic variation in the second foot > >2: a barely iambic hexameter that could just as easily be called trochaic. > >One iambic foot, one anapest, another iambic foot, a phyrric foot, and two > >trochees. > >3: anapestic pentameter, but it begins with an iamb > >4: another barely iambic line, pentameter: iamb, anapest, iamb, caesura, > >dactyl, trochee > > > >Meter is an imperfect way of transcribing sound in poetry, not an ideal > >system from which we generate poems like automatons. > > > >Tim > > > > > >Umm.. yup... > >1st line: iambic pentameter, headless , anapest in third foot. 2nd line > >iambic pentameter, anapests in second and third feet, extra-syllable > >ending. 3rd line: iambic pentameter, 4 anapestic substitutions in last 4 ft > >(heavily anapestic but could fit in easily in any post-mid-19th c. iambic > >pentameter context) 4th line: iambic pentameter, anapest in second foot, > >trochee in fourth foot (after a caesura, as is best to keep beat), > >extra-syllable ending. > >is this what you mean? They are all fairly standard modulations...nothing > >very wild. > >Annie > >At 8:26 PM -0500 1/22/04, Daniel Zimmerman wrote: >Iambic > >pentameter? > > > > > > > The Hermaphrodite > > > > > > > > > > > > Walking > >slowly along the icy road > > > > > > She thinks of her babyhood with the > >hippo father > > > > > > & swaddled in clothes how her clit like an > >elephant's trunk > > > > > > Would wander about the room searching for > >peanuts >> > > > > > > >___________________________________ >Annie Finch >http://www.users.muohio.edu/finchar >English Department, Miami University, Ohio > > >Care2 make the world greener! >Help the planet each day! It's free and easy: >http://www.Care2.com/ ___________________________________ Annie Finch http://www.users.muohio.edu/finchar English Department, Miami University, Ohio Care2 make the world greener! Help the planet each day! It's free and easy: http://www.Care2.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 06:38:13 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lewis LaCook Subject: Dear Mr. Sondheim and dear Mr. Lacook Comments: cc: jen berry , Ron Conn , cyberculture , Kathryn Dean-Dielman , karen stoic lemley , underground poetry , naked readings , Renee , rhizome , webartery , wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii cimandef.didier@free.fr wrote: Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 13:27:42 +0100 From: cimandef.didier@free.fr To: sondheim@panix.com CC: llacook@yahoo.com Dear Mr. Sondheim and dear Mr. Lacook, I am graduate student in Art History at Paris 1 – Panthéon Sorbonne University. The topic of my thesis is random computer generated artworks since the 1980s. As I was looking for information, it occured to me that your work could provide elements fo answer to my questions : I have seen some of your artworks in which the random process is an essential point. However, available information on your research and on your theories are still difficult to access. It would be very helpful to me if you could answer a few questions. Indeed it is very important for me to have a genuine and precise information on the development and conclusions of your research, for my work to be constructive. I understand that you may be very busy, this is why I use the Internet to send you this questionnaire for you to save time. I would nonetheless like you to send me back your paper before April 2004 . I have to collect as much information as possible by this date. Therefore, I would be very pleased to “talk” with you. My thesis raises the following issues (among others) : 1. What kind of training did you have ? I was an English major. 2. How does the random process work in your production ? That is, could you give a mathematical or a computer definition as accurate as possible of the calculation method used by the program you write to simulate a random process (stochastic definitions, statistics, use of physical or biological models, ...) ? The process seems organic to me. Random elements co-exist with predetermined elements, all of which should be reactive, i.e. manipulated in some significant way by the user. It's an epistemology. 3. Which programming langage do you use, and does its nature have an influence on your work ? The languages vary. Since I want my work to exist on a network, to be an odd pocket of communication, I do a lot of web-programming, scripting languages. For a long time I worked mainly in Flash, using ActionScript; it's a robust language these days, an ECMA script brute. Because the language is rich in events. Lately, I've been exploring what Flash can do when used with PHP, which is the server-side language of my dreams. And also lately PHP and MySQL-- Because ActionScript is a rich client-side event-driven language, I do think most of the work I've done is reactive; the user must invest herself somehow in the work in order for the work to unfold. There is always the hope for me that the work is a collaboration between myself, the random--sometimes oracle-like--and the user. 4. What is your definition of the notion of “author” when it is applied to these kinds of works ? That is, on the one hand, who do you consider as the author of the work you build, and on the other hand, how is the notion of “author” modified by a random pattern ? I don't think about the author at all. How bourgeois! 5. How would you define the relation that binds the program (as a particular form of language, hidden to the spectator, accessible to the designer and only understandable by a scholar audience) and the visual form it allows ? You would be surprised at how many non-scholars can operate a calculator, buddy! You are asking me to explore here the difference between the hidden and the visible in my work; or really, explain somehow what the relations between different elements MEAN. But I don't particularly hide the elements. Nor do I often control the relations between these elements. What I do is design spaces in which relations happen; I make rooms. 6. What do you think of the oppositions existing between the program thats remains fixed and the instability of the visual form ? between the uniqueness of the program and the multiplicity of the visual forms ? between the discontinuity of the calculation lines of the program and the continuity of its visual expression ? I think it feels like living. 7. What are the role and the responsability of the spectator in the artworks ? The spectator becomes a user; she uses the work, but the work also uses her. The work should be a focused kind of social sculpture- this is the role of the network. It is a communication medium. I'd love for the user to leave permanent marks on the objects I make, to inscribe it with something of herself. This too feels like living. 8. If you have suggestions for further reflexions, if there are points you would like to insist on or if you know other artists using random process as raw material, please let me know. Where can I get access to a live global temperature API? Didier Lebon ===== This is as useful as a doll.--Gertrude Stein Poem of the Day: http://www.lewislacook.com/POD associate editor, _sidereality http://www.sidereality.com/ -------- http://www.lewislacook.com/ tubulence artist studio: http://turbulence.org/studios/lacook/index.html __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 09:39:52 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Brennan Subject: Cardinal Joos: 95% Of Pedophile Priests Are Perverts Comments: To: frankfurt-school@lists.village.virginia.edu, corp-focus@lists.essential.org, WRYTING-L@LISTSERV.UTORONTO.CA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Click here: The Assassinated Press Cardinal Joos: 95% Of Pedophile Priests Are Perverts: by Ima Stoogey The Assassinated Press U.S. Military Has Insurgency In Check As It Prepares Iraq For Civil War: Rumsfeld: Free Saddam Because Sometimes You Just Need A Tito-Talitarian: U.S. Intelligence Using Vichy France To Game Afghanistan and Iraq: Cloacally Obsessed Cheney Says 'I-Rockie II' WMD Might Be Found Up Administrations' "Cubbyholes": Bush Asks If He Should 'Undeclare' End To Combat So U.S. Troops Can Start Defending Themselves: by Robbie Barons The Assassinated Press Paranoid Shift by Michael Hasty The Assassinated Press ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 08:53:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Annie Finch Subject: Re: bottom line scansion Comments: To: olsonjk@delhi.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Kirby, Well, at this point I don't have much patience for labels.... I published my first book (actually not really my first book--my first book will come out this spring from Salt (see below) with Story Line because they didn't run and hide when they saw meter as a lot of people used to do-- but got tired of the conservative associations, of being totally misunderstood politically because I published with them, which was one of the reasons I left. I am just getting a book of essays together that will answer a lot of the questions you raise about how I situate myself and how I balance formal aesthetics within my spiritual/political/literary contexts (The Body of Poetry: Essays on Women, Form, and Poetics to be published by U. of Michigan Press next year). And the most recent book of poems, CALENDARS, includes a blend of aesthetics and approaches to form. I guess like Whitman I contain multitudes. .. I love poetic formal beauty and pleasure in the context of my spirituality, which is basically wiccan/pagan. I also see it is a key part of my political activism, which is feminist/leftist, which also seems to challenge some stereotypes. You know from the "metrical diversity" essay in "After New Formalism" that I consider myself a conservationist of poetic forms; I'm interested in preserving a biodiversity of forms and meters which are in danger of being lost forever in our monotextural culture. In the books since then-An Exaltation of Forms and especially in Multiformalisms, which I've coedited with Susan Schultz and hopefully will be out soon, there is a lot more about overlaps between traditional and experimental forms. That's one of the dichotomies I'm interested in exploring/questioning. Despite my very real cultural, literary and political differences from with new formalists, I do enjoy talking meter and technical stuff with them. And I also talk with avant poets because I enjoy talking with people who understand that poetry needs to blow you away. Right now I'm reading mostly experimental poetries. The recent new formalist volume of the dictionary of literary biography profiles me in terms of an exception, a boundary-stretcher, bridge-builder, the one who resists the stereotype of the new formalism as hidebound, reactionary, etc.... Many of the new formalists find my formal poetry horribly sloppy because I work with such a range of approaches including aural rhythms, ritual forms, exploded syntax, in addition to forms so arcane some of them don't even recognize them as forms. In fact, I feel a lot more in common at this point with experimental forms--the labels don't really matter to me; I go wherever I find the most interesting ways to think about poetry and its forms and musics... Folks on the this list may be interested in my third book of poetry which SALT is about publish. The book is actually my first book, never before published in full, a collage, not in any predictable form at all, though very musical (in fact, I sang/performed it with a band when it was first completed). It is a real pastiche of voices and shows that what I was doing 15 years before my "first" book was nothing to do with formalism....though now, yes, I find nothing more exciting than to look at ways the body of poetry enacts beauty, energy, in structural ways. I've thought a lot lately about poetry and architecture, a parallel which offers more interesting analogues to poetic forms--again, I find it useful to have new ways to think of poetics so it doesn't fall into the same old tired dichotomies that seem to drain creativity right out through the split. I don't find that enjoying thinking about meter automatically puts me into any box or stops me finding new ways to think about poetry. best, Annie. Do you think that the formal qualities that you discuss > must be considered a rightist deviation? >-- I am mostly just > trying to tease out concepts here -- how do you relate yourself to > formal traditions, and how do these formal traditions relate to your > vision of politics/asthetics? I wish I had a sense of > what is animating you and what is your overall program and how the > revival of metrics fits into this. Are you religious? > ___________________________________ Annie Finch http://www.users.muohio.edu/finchar English Department, Miami University, Ohio Care2 make the world greener! Help the planet each day! It's free and easy: http://www.Care2.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 15:57:38 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Kane Subject: Tom Raworth Reading, University of East Anglia - final notice.... Comments: To: writenet@twc.org, Mark Ford , Tony Lopez , Peter Middleton , Geoffrey Ward MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom Raworth POETRY READING Wednesday 28 January **********7pm********** UEA Drama Studio Admission free. There will be a book signing and wine reception after the reading. Tom Raworth's Collected Poems (Carcanet 2003) will be available for sale in the lobby. 'It's a great thing to have the poetry of Tom Raworth available in a collected edition from Carcanet Press...it's significant in all sorts of ways, and it means that something has fundamentally changed in the field we call British Poetry'. Tony Lopez ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 11:19:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: ................./ fear of language? In-Reply-To: <15c.2b23a517.2d38d2f4@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >George, thanks for your answers, but your respect >for language is based on fear? i understand you >have a deep respect for language. Well, I guess we live in different worlds and with different languages. I take Rilke's notion that the sense of beauty and fear are two aspects of the same thing. -- George Bowering Son of the Okanagan 303 Fielden Ave. Port Colborne. ON, L3K 4T5 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 08:39:51 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Weishaus Subject: Re: ................./ fear of language? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Bowering" To: Sent: Monday, January 26, 2004 8:19 AM Subject: Re: ................./ fear of language? > >George, thanks for your answers, but your respect > >for language is based on fear? i understand you > >have a deep respect for language. > > Well, I guess we live in different worlds and with different > languages. I take Rilke's notion that the sense of beauty and fear > are two aspects of the same thing. Rilke was steeped in romanticism, which, like too much salt, can make your blood pressure rise. -Joel ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 11:52:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: real true MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII real true taking them of all - dennis dan, laurie, vito, kathy, about liked i what cutting disbelief and belief and production with obsessed seriously, art was there death, and life of matter a constantly, working themselves, into everything full-time, was it serious, was it art, beyond or within nothing their determination, their was them about liked i what it; into giving be might terms those however preserved, was essential the only resolution. there consequences. had art that seems it when period a was it defined. the institutions. other and galleries with relationship problematic a was of conditions in worked people granted. for taken wasn't relationship there manic-depressive. was itself artworld the despair. and exhilaration and spaces out feeling of question a was art performance labels; less were romantics. the always are artists greatest the said baudelaire potentials. effort much how matter no then, did it as today true holds this believe i artist an be to anyone for heroic is it surely collaboration. into put is both society, the by unrewarded so is this since work, cultural do to or cultural by entailed belief of degree the psychologically. and financially scrape to ability her and well as bernadette remember i enormous. is work people these of one every masquerade. surface of layer after layer away money much as wasn't there art. their for line the on life their put would hippies, weren't they and that. about wasn't it so there, artworld the in the of one was it one. as herself identified kathy sometimes though even in line the on were people those war. vietnam the of because times darkest go to meant it what understand did we but understand, couldn't we way a going any never was there did. you whatever in could you as far as out born was i unknown. the of despair and violence the always was there back. obsessiveness same the has work my caldron. same the of out and in of state essential an feel always i more. around jumps it although born was i home. only my is writing me. drives state that displacement. same. the die i'll people. nomadic a from _ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 13:45:08 -0330 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Hehir Subject: swivet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII swivet (SWIV-it) noun A state of anxiety, discomposure or agitation. (Usually used in the phrase "in a swivet".) [Of unknown origin.] "Scientists were in a swivet last month when they learned that Butterfields, a San Francisco-based auction house, was putting the 200-million-year-old fossil, a glider with the wingspan of a large dragonfly, up for sale." Happy Landings for Flying Fossil; Science (Washington, DC); Sep 8, 2000. "Filmmakers are in another swivet over high costs in New York City and prohibitive rules." Liz Smith; Hoffman the Perfectionist is Hard at Work on `Billy Bathgate'; Orange County Register (Santa Ana, California); Nov 26, 1990. Order is good. Mostly. It makes sure that the earth will go around the sun in the same way as it has in the past and bring the summer to ripen the mangoes. Patterns are good too - most of the time. They help us find our shoes easily among an array of other pairs. But if we stick too much to the same order and pattern, we lose. We lose the opportunity of discovering new lands, new paths, new flowers, new ways (and new words!). Sometimes the break in order is by choice and at times it's forced, as when you lose a job. Often it's a blessing in disguise. It's an opportunity to explore and discover what remained hidden from the old path. This week's words have no order, pattern or theme. They just are. But they're all interesting. -Anu Garg ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 13:00:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nick Piombino Subject: Nick Piombino's ::fait accompli:: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit now on http://nickpiombino.blogspot.com *new ((((BLOGLINK))))) ((((CRUSH))))(((((LIST)))) over 20 new links ** "Dean's Dilemma" {scroll down to Friday, Jan 23) -via Tom Kelly on its way to the Dean campaign "as we speak" ** also on 1/23 *The Butterfly Effect* the true story ** Wednesday 1/21 "Vulnerability on Ice" Swans in Central Park, Lucas Samaras in the flesh and George Bush's ice cold war ** !/11 "Blogging and Narcissism" (go to sidebar and click on January 11th- this piece was acknowledged and linked to by over 30 bloggers, others) ** also: Hot of The Press, new small press books from Mark Wallace, Chris McCreary, Sheila Murphy, poetry reading listings New York, San Francisco, Boston, elsewhere, new online issue of sidereality and introducing the online mag *eratio* on the sidebar ** Read it all now on ::fait accompli:: http://nickpiombino.blogspot.com/ online since 2/11/03 over 70,000 hits since 5/24/03 ***** also check out our ongoing blog list at the EPC http://epc.buffalo.edu/connects/blogs.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 10:08:53 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Corbett Subject: Re: ??? Comments: To: Harry Nudel In-Reply-To: <18063935.1075097617390.JavaMail.root@wamui05.slb.atl.earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII most certainly female...although it might be androgynous. most robots are. -- Robert Corbett, Ph.C. "Given the distance of communication, Coordinator of New Programs I hope the words aren't idling on the B40D Gerberding map of my fingertips, but igniting the Phone: (206) 616-0657 wild acres within the probabilities of Fax: (206) 685-3218 spelling" - Rosmarie Waldrop UW Box: 351237 On Mon, 26 Jan 2004, Harry Nudel wrote: > any one know what > race & gender > > the 'spirit' rover > is.... > > > > > drn... > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 13:49:06 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: Re: query--gendered expletive/r "Oh Boy"-- Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Brent The expression is much older than Batman-- for example in late Fifties, a song by Buddy Holly is called "Oh Boy"-- playing on it as an already comon phrase with some shades of meaning-- ("That'll Be the Day"--another popular phrase song by Holly--title taken from line John Wayne says over and over in the film THE SEARCHERS--) >From: Brent Bechtel >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: query--gendered expletive >Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 23:23:13 -0600 > >This site will show you how to translate this and other idiomatic >expressions into ... Lithuanian. > >So instead of the same ol' "Boy oh boy!" > >You can surprise your friends with "Berniuk-ei-berniuk!" > >http://www.lituanus.org/1994_3/94_3_06.htm > >But really, the idiom has its roots in pop culture, as it was originally >rendered "Oh, Boy Wonder!" - a reference to Robin of the Batman comic. In >time this was shortened, like many phrases, to "Oh, Boy!" or simply, "Boy!" >(e.g. "Boy, is this swell!") It's used in making declarations to one's >companions with the same kind of elation and intensity that Robin conveys >to >Batman - "Holy lexicographers, Batman - it's the neologism!" etc. ... > >-Brent > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Mark Weiss" >To: >Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2004 2:24 PM >Subject: query--gendered expletive > > > > Any thoughts on why the expletives "boy" and "man" as in "oh boy," or >"oh > > man?" Scholarship appreciated, but fancy gratefully accepted. > > > > Mark _________________________________________________________________ Find high-speed ‘net deals — comparison-shop your local providers here. https://broadband.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 14:52:43 -0500 Reply-To: olsonjk@delhi.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kirby Olson Organization: SUNY Delhi Subject: Re: scansion &/as religion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Annie, containing multitudes is probably inescapable. The Wiccan religion is growing stronger every day. Now you make sense -- I was looking at the photo on the back of the book and you have very short hair indicating feminist, to me at least, but you also have a necklace and lots of earrings, and your hair isn't THAT short, so a Wiccan feminist would make sense. Murat has been backchanneling me about where I got the 87% figure from in terms of the number of Christians in the country. I got it out of Time Magazine, and this number keeps getting recycled in all kinds of publications, but their data may be 10 years old. I looked it up on the net and got a fairly good site that breaks down religions in America. Muslims are about half a percent. By the way, most Arabic people in America are Christians, not Muslim, according to one study I read. Most Taiwanese and Koreans are also Christian. What does this mean to be a Christian? Beats me. Is a Mormon a Christian? Not according to my pastor. They actually believe that they will become Gods in their own turn and rule their own universe in the next life. Sounds like fun, but my pastor says it's heresy. And yet, they have about five million adherents and we Lutherans only about 8 million in this country, and ours are split into three or four synods which are already separate entities and the boundaries between them are likely to increase. Christians, according to this site, make up about 75% of the population, and that population is declining as more and more people opt for no religion at all, which is the expressed preference in several states. There is a cool map where you can find a breakdown of religions in your state, too. It's at the bottom. Christianity has declined by ten percent according to this poll within the last ten years. And Wiccans are gaining. There are only about 200,000 right now according to the survey but it said some Wiccans may worry about losing their jobs so they don't self-report. So there may be more. Perhaps some of you will find this encouraging. I think Murat will find it so. I had a hunch that there had to be some interest in matters of spirit for there to be much interest in poetic scansion. Somehow numbers and religion go hand in hand all the way back to Parmenides. Maybe because if you think the world makes some kind of sense, one way to prove it is to do the math. A lot of Corso's poems are aiming in that direction, such as The Geometrician of Milano. Luca Pacioli was an Italian geometrician who tried to prove the world's coherence through geometry. Parmenides and Zeno were religious in their orientation to numbers according to Nietzsche. Here's a link with the breakdown of numbers of religions in the US -- they don't list political correctness, which I think is the biggest religion among the young. It's creed is very hard to pin down -- I think it is something like respect everybody's uniqueness, don't judge anybody for any reason, and allow each person to define themselves. http://wwwreligioustolerance.org/chr_prac2.htm I don't think race and gender define people to any great extent. But religion really does, because it's about a person's chosen beliefs, rather than accidental exterior criteria which mean next to nothing. -- Kirby Annie Finch wrote: > Kirby, > > I guess like Whitman I contain multitudes. .. I love poetic formal > beauty and pleasure in the context of my spirituality, which is > basically wiccan/pagan. I also see it is a key part of my political > activism, which is feminist/leftist, which also seems to challenge > some stereotypes. > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 15:05:18 -0500 Reply-To: olsonjk@delhi.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kirby Olson Organization: SUNY Delhi Subject: Re: bad taste &/as religion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I fucked up the link by forgetting to put a period after www. At any rate, I'm glad my poem ("lamentable" it was described as today!) has fascinated so many people and caused such a great discussion. Some time we could have a discussion about bad taste, and what it is made up of. Bad taste is a specialty of mine, and I think I deserve a prize for it for almost every year I've ever written anything. Is the world in good taste or bad taste? I say it's a crazy funny mix, and I think poetry should not aim too high. I love bad taste as an aspect of aesthetics. What constitutes it, exactly? I think this is ultimately a religious question, and helps us to understand various poetics, as well as various poets, and their approach to God. It is only by looking at bad taste, and to some extent celebrating it, or at least focusing on it, that we can understand the underside of humanity, and thus have sympathy for fallen humanity. I don't know what I mean by this, but ask. > http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_prac2.htm > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 14:03:12 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brent Bechtel Subject: Re: query--gendered expletive/r "Oh Boy"-- MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit But, Batman first appeared in 1939. Buddy Holly was obviously a fan. -Brent ----- Original Message ----- From: "David-Baptiste Chirot" To: Sent: Monday, January 26, 2004 1:49 PM Subject: Re: query--gendered expletive/r "Oh Boy"-- Brent The expression is much older than Batman-- for example in late Fifties, a song by Buddy Holly is called "Oh Boy"-- playing on it as an already comon phrase with some shades of meaning-- ("That'll Be the Day"--another popular phrase song by Holly--title taken from line John Wayne says over and over in the film THE SEARCHERS--) >From: Brent Bechtel >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: query--gendered expletive >Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 23:23:13 -0600 > >This site will show you how to translate this and other idiomatic >expressions into ... Lithuanian. > >So instead of the same ol' "Boy oh boy!" > >You can surprise your friends with "Berniuk-ei-berniuk!" > >http://www.lituanus.org/1994_3/94_3_06.htm > >But really, the idiom has its roots in pop culture, as it was originally >rendered "Oh, Boy Wonder!" - a reference to Robin of the Batman comic. In >time this was shortened, like many phrases, to "Oh, Boy!" or simply, "Boy!" >(e.g. "Boy, is this swell!") It's used in making declarations to one's >companions with the same kind of elation and intensity that Robin conveys >to >Batman - "Holy lexicographers, Batman - it's the neologism!" etc. ... > >-Brent > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Mark Weiss" >To: >Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2004 2:24 PM >Subject: query--gendered expletive > > > > Any thoughts on why the expletives "boy" and "man" as in "oh boy," or >"oh > > man?" Scholarship appreciated, but fancy gratefully accepted. > > > > Mark _________________________________________________________________ Find high-speed ‘net deals — comparison-shop your local providers here. https://broadband.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 15:03:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: scansion &/as religion Comments: To: Kirby Olson In-Reply-To: <4015700B.37476BB0@delhi.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Annie, containing multitudes is probably inescapable. The Wiccan religion is growing stronger every day. Now you make sense -- I was looking at the photo on the back of the book and you have very short hair indicating feminist, to me at least, but you also have a necklace and lots of earrings, and your hair isn't THAT short, so a Wiccan feminist would make sense.<<< Which is more than a Kirby Olson would ever do. Please tell me that this alleged person, who seems to measure political stance by length of hair, amount of festoonery, and other measures of conformity to some bizarre norm, is really a bot created to simulate a complete idiot. He's just failed his Turing test as far as I'm concerned. Gwyn McVay, vigorously bonking head, with long hair and earrings attached, against desk --- "Nobody gets paid for being a poemer." -- Bucky the cat, "Get Fuzzy," 6/30/03 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 12:36:07 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: query--gendered expletive In-Reply-To: <001001c3e3cc$7fa3ca60$5f2b1e43@k6k12c9frvhhz6p> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Oh boy and Oh man are also used in the negative sense, as in, what a bumnmer. For your history of the term a source would help. Mark At 11:23 PM 1/25/2004 -0600, you wrote: >This site will show you how to translate this and other idiomatic >expressions into ... Lithuanian. > >So instead of the same ol' "Boy oh boy!" > >You can surprise your friends with "Berniuk-ei-berniuk!" > >http://www.lituanus.org/1994_3/94_3_06.htm > >But really, the idiom has its roots in pop culture, as it was originally >rendered "Oh, Boy Wonder!" - a reference to Robin of the Batman comic. In >time this was shortened, like many phrases, to "Oh, Boy!" or simply, "Boy!" >(e.g. "Boy, is this swell!") It's used in making declarations to one's >companions with the same kind of elation and intensity that Robin conveys to >Batman - "Holy lexicographers, Batman - it's the neologism!" etc. ... > >-Brent > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Mark Weiss" >To: >Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2004 2:24 PM >Subject: query--gendered expletive > > > > Any thoughts on why the expletives "boy" and "man" as in "oh boy," or "oh > > man?" Scholarship appreciated, but fancy gratefully accepted. > > > > Mark ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 14:50:51 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: scansion &/as religion Comments: To: olsonjk@delhi.edu In-Reply-To: <4015700B.37476BB0@delhi.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" huh? annie has always had LONG hair. At 2:52 PM -0500 1/26/04, Kirby Olson wrote: >Annie, containing multitudes is probably inescapable. The Wiccan religion >is growing stronger every day. Now you make sense -- I was looking at the >photo on the back of the book and you have very short hair indicating >feminist, to me at least, but you also have a necklace and lots of >earrings, and your hair isn't THAT short, so a Wiccan feminist would make >sense. > >Murat has been backchanneling me about where I got the 87% figure from in >terms of the number of Christians in the country. I got it out of Time >Magazine, and this number keeps getting recycled in all kinds of >publications, but their data may be 10 years old. I looked it up on the >net and got a fairly good site that breaks down religions in America. >Muslims are about half a percent. By the way, most Arabic people in >America are Christians, not Muslim, according to one study I read. Most >Taiwanese and Koreans are also Christian. What does this mean to be a >Christian? Beats me. Is a Mormon a Christian? Not according to my >pastor. They actually believe that they will become Gods in their own turn >and rule their own universe in the next life. Sounds like fun, but my >pastor says it's heresy. And yet, they have about five million adherents >and we Lutherans only about 8 million in this country, and ours are split >into three or four synods which are already separate entities and the >boundaries between them are likely to increase. Christians, according to >this site, make up about 75% of the population, and that population is >declining as more and more people opt for no religion at all, which is the >expressed preference in several states. > >There is a cool map where you can find a breakdown of religions in your >state, too. It's at the bottom. Christianity has declined by ten percent >according to this poll within the last ten years. And Wiccans are >gaining. There are only about 200,000 right now according to the survey >but it said some Wiccans may worry about losing their jobs so they don't >self-report. So there may be more. > >Perhaps some of you will find this encouraging. I think Murat will find it >so. > >I had a hunch that there had to be some interest in matters of spirit for >there to be much interest in poetic scansion. Somehow numbers and religion >go hand in hand all the way back to Parmenides. Maybe because if you think >the world makes some kind of sense, one way to prove it is to do the math. >A lot of Corso's poems are aiming in that direction, such as The >Geometrician of Milano. Luca Pacioli was an Italian geometrician who tried >to prove the world's coherence through geometry. Parmenides and Zeno were >religious in their orientation to numbers according to Nietzsche. > >Here's a link with the breakdown of numbers of religions in the US -- they >don't list political correctness, which I think is the biggest religion >among the young. It's creed is very hard to pin down -- I think it is >something like respect everybody's uniqueness, don't judge anybody for any >reason, and allow each person to define themselves. > >http://wwwreligioustolerance.org/chr_prac2.htm > >I don't think race and gender define people to any great extent. But >religion really does, because it's about a person's chosen beliefs, rather >than accidental exterior criteria which mean next to nothing. > >-- Kirby > >Annie Finch wrote: > >> Kirby, >> >> I guess like Whitman I contain multitudes. .. I love poetic formal >> beauty and pleasure in the context of my spirituality, which is >> basically wiccan/pagan. I also see it is a key part of my political >> activism, which is feminist/leftist, which also seems to challenge >> some stereotypes. >> -- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 16:37:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: query--gendered expletive/r "Oh Boy"-- In-Reply-To: <003301c3e447$6e5549c0$fb011e43@k6k12c9frvhhz6p> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" My father used to say it all the time. In fact when he was dying he said it. But he told me that they all said it when he was a kid, and he was born in 1907. gb >But, Batman first appeared in 1939. > >Buddy Holly was obviously a fan. > >-Brent > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "David-Baptiste Chirot" >To: >Sent: Monday, January 26, 2004 1:49 PM >Subject: Re: query--gendered expletive/r "Oh Boy"-- > > >Brent > >The expression is much older than Batman-- >for example in late Fifties, a song by Buddy Holly is called "Oh Boy"-- >playing on it as an already comon phrase with some shades of meaning-- >("That'll Be the Day"--another popular phrase song by Holly--title taken >from line John Wayne says over and over in the film THE SEARCHERS--) > > > >>From: Brent Bechtel >>Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >>To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>Subject: Re: query--gendered expletive >>Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 23:23:13 -0600 >> >>This site will show you how to translate this and other idiomatic >>expressions into ... Lithuanian. >> >>So instead of the same ol' "Boy oh boy!" >> >>You can surprise your friends with "Berniuk-ei-berniuk!" >> >>http://www.lituanus.org/1994_3/94_3_06.htm >> >>But really, the idiom has its roots in pop culture, as it was originally >>rendered "Oh, Boy Wonder!" - a reference to Robin of the Batman comic. In >>time this was shortened, like many phrases, to "Oh, Boy!" or simply, "Boy!" >>(e.g. "Boy, is this swell!") It's used in making declarations to one's >>companions with the same kind of elation and intensity that Robin conveys >>to >>Batman - "Holy lexicographers, Batman - it's the neologism!" etc. ... >> >>-Brent >> >> >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Mark Weiss" >>To: >>Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2004 2:24 PM >>Subject: query--gendered expletive >> >> >> > Any thoughts on why the expletives "boy" and "man" as in "oh boy," or >>"oh >> > man?" Scholarship appreciated, but fancy gratefully accepted. >> > >> > Mark > >_________________________________________________________________ >Find high-speed 'net deals - comparison-shop your local providers here. >https://broadband.msn.com -- George Bowering Son of the Okanagan 303 Fielden Ave. Port Colborne. ON, L3K 4T5 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 13:45:31 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Small Press Traffic Subject: Jamboree Press & Final Weeks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello from Small Press Traffic in the midst of our big Poets Theater Jamboree. Check out --- Where Bards Tread the Boards At the Poets' Theater Jamboree, verse goes live on stage. By Nirmala Nataraj http://www.sfstation.com/literaryarts/archives/jamboree.htm And come on down for the final nights -- remember, reservations are recommended (& taken at 415-551-9278), & all seats are $10 to benefit SPT. Friday, January 30, 2004 at 7:30 p.m. Drew Cushing, "Hamlet Variations" Bill Luoma, "Radio Grasshopper" Dawn Lundy Martin, "Killing Jemima Twice" K. Silem Mohammad, "Who Is React?" Erin Wilson & Jean Lieske, "Pink Stories" Ronaldo V. Wilson, "Erase: A Play in Two Parts" Friday, February 6, 2004 at 7:30 p.m. Trevor Calvert & James Meetze, "The New Brutalists: A Hero's Welcome" Maxine Chernoff, "Heavenly Bodies," directed by Mac McGinnes Yedda Morrison, "Girl Scout Nation: A Diorama" Deborah Richards, "Android Woman" Michael Scharf, "Parti(Antigone)" Tyrone Williams play, directed by Taylor Brady Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson Executive Director Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center at CCA 1111 -- 8th Street San Francisco, CA 94107 415.551.9278 http://www.sptraffic.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 14:11:19 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joseph Thomas Subject: Re: query--gendered expletive/r "Oh Boy"-- In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From the OED: (oh) boy! a colloq. (orig. U.S.) exclamation of shock, surprise, excitement, etc.; freq. used to give emphasis to a statement that follows it. Cf. ATTABOY. 1917 Amer. Mag. Mar. 13/1 ‘I told that dame I was Kid Hanlon.’..‘Oh, boy!’ I yells. 1927 Punch 7 Sept. 263 Oh, boy, I feel good! 1930 D. H. LAWRENCE Nettles 17 And they blushed, they giggled, they sniggered, they leered..and said: Oh boy!..that's pretty hot! 1934 M. HODGE Wind & Rain I. i. 18 Boy! They don't wear a damned thing! 1942 L. D. RICH We took to Woods (1944) ii. 34 Maine guides have a legend of quaintness to uphold, and boy! do they uphold it. 1958 ‘N. SHUTE’ Rainbow & Rose i. 2, I slithered in over the fence and put her [sc. the aeroplane] down and boy! was I glad to be on the ground! and here's the OED on attaboy: [Said to represent careless pronunc. of that's the boy! (BOY n.1 2c).] An exclamation expressive of encouragement or admiration. Hence attagirl, etc., as nonce-wds. 1909 Amer. Mag. May 40/2 Back of Chance's war cries, ‘At-a-boy’, or ‘Now ye're pitching’, may be hidden a whole command to his team. 1917 C. MATHEWSON Sec. Base Sloan xxii. 298 ‘Ata boy!’ called the Damascus catcher. 1924 P. MARKS Plastic Age iv. 26 Suddenly one of the girls..caught the bag deftly... ‘Ray! Ray! Atta girl! Hot dog! Ray, ray!’ 1925 H. L. FOSTER Trop. Tramp Tourists 101 The marines rose from their chairs to encourage the new performer: ‘Attaboy, soldier! Attaboy! Shake 'em doggies!’ 1927 Blackw. Mag. July 4/2 Cries, also, of ‘Attaboy!’ leave no doubt that the greeting is not entirely British. 1929 WODEHOUSE Summer Lightning xv. 286 ‘Give me two minutes to get the car out and five to make the trip and I'll be with you.’ ‘'At-a-boy!’ said Millicent. ‘'At-a-baby!’ said Hugo. 1932 JAMES JOYCE in New Statesman 27 Feb. 261/1 Attagirl! 1936 AUDEN & ISHERWOOD Ascent of F6 II. iii. 101 Chin up! Kiss me! Atta Boy! Dance till dawn among the ruins of a burning Troy! 1946 H. CROOME Faithless Mirror x. 102 I'm celebrating. Atta girl! 1958 J. BETJEMAN Coll. Poems 153 Look at that little mite with Attaboy Printed across her paper sailor hat. Best, Joseph __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 17:19:07 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brent Bechtel Subject: Re: query--gendered expletive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Right here - in my trusty 1948 edition of the "Dictionary of Philosophistry", page 228. -Brent ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Weiss" To: Sent: Monday, January 26, 2004 2:36 PM Subject: Re: query--gendered expletive > Oh boy and Oh man are also used in the negative sense, as in, what a bumnmer. > > For your history of the term a source would help. > > Mark > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 18:34:43 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harrison Jeff Subject: A Speak Globe Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed nests, the keys some far eye threaded is their off branches, the keys' use tightens when spoken it's not garbage that goes through one "yes" after another shame since spoken? explosion taps all the sections listening for hollows unsettled trees snow down your speaks far eye's farthest & between unsettled trees _________________________________________________________________ Get a FREE online virus check for your PC here, from McAfee. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 01:38:06 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "subrosa@speakeasy.org" Subject: jEFF dERKSEN & kREG hASEGAWA - SubText Seattle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subtext continues its monthly series of experimental writing with reading= s by Jeff Derksen and Kreg Hasegawa at the Richard Hugo House on Wednesda= y, February 4, 2004. Donations for admission will be taken at the door on= the evening of the performance. The reading starts at 7:30pm. Jeff Derksen is author of three books of poetry: Down Time, Dwell and Tra= nsnational Muscle Cars. His writing on art, urbanism, and imperialism has= appeared in magazines in North America & Europe. He lives in Vancouver, = B.C. where he works at Simon Fraser University. He is a member of the tra= nsnational poetry collective, The Social Mark. Kreg Hasegawa lives in Seattle. He is coeditor of Monkey Puzzle, a staple= d, 81/2 by 11 inch magazine of poetry and prose. His essays have appeared= in The Stranger, Tablet, Copper Press, and The American Book Review. His= work is due to appear in The News and The Ensign. The future Subtext 2004 schedule is: March 3, 2004: Juliana Spahr (Hawaii & Oakland, CA) and Bill Luoma (Hawai= i & Oakland) April 7, 2004: Anselm Berrigan (NYC) and Karen Weiser (NYC) For info on these & other Subtext events, see our website: http://www.spe= akeasy.org/~subtext Subtext events are co-sponsored by the Richard Hugo House. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 20:41:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wanda Phipps Subject: Back up and completely functioning MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey: My computer's been in the shop for over a month and I've finally gotten it back and completely functioning. Yippee!!!! I know that some e-mail had been sent back because my e-mail server inbox filled up. If you sent something and it was sent back to you or you think that I might not have gotten it, please send it to me again. Hope all is well with you. Thanks, Wanda -- Wanda Phipps Hey, don't forget to check out my website MIND HONEY http://users.rcn.com/wanda.interport (and if you have already try it again) poetry, music and more! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 19:54:14 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffre Jullic Subject: citation for Oppen "little words that I like so much" ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In the latest Winter 2003/2004 Rain Taxi, there's an interview with Peter Gizzi. Gizzi says: "It made me think of George Oppen talking about 'the little words that I like so much, like tree, hill, and so on.'" Does anyone know, please, where the original Oppen quote can be found? Thanks. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 00:49:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: 2 texts gathered from sp*m violations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII 2 texts gathered from sp*m violations i turned them into something yes yes yes but what do you want How could it have happened, what do you think?.. booklet crash sidelights vindicate keener Sensation! yellowed interlaces drench element Babbage A young prostitute killed a 70-year-old man because of his enormous seksua1 desire! evaluative Apocrypha enchant Thursday aphids What is the reason of his behaviour? parsings cormorant bussed disowns naiveness Sensation! :booklet crash sidelights vindicate keener:How could it have happened, what do you think?..:parsings cormorant bussed disowns naiveness:What is the reason of his behaviour? How could it have happened, what do you think?.. replace your Sensation!? heir with ideogrammatic intervals! How could it have happened, what do you think?.. shall guarantee our troth. - Your palm is blasphemy unto the Lord. - Your great-wind shall convert in truth and not in false demand? heir gives_mass me on your great-wind! My heir with ideogrammatic intervals! is your language... Sensation! calls forth grace, hungered, making things. across the , Sensation! is women, 028], booklet crash sidelights vindicate keener? ... grace is A young prostitute killed a 70-year-old man because of his enormous on black stone, it's grace? Are you satisfied with your Sensation!? Your Sensation! 9 text is your final enunciation. Sensation!:booklet crash sidelights vindicate keener:How could it have happened, what do you think?..::seksua1 desire! __ v*ral stars and bones + // / / / / ++ ///// + ////// + ///// +/ //// / / / ///// + ///// / ///// ///// + + ///// + ///// / + /////++ ///// + + / ///// / ///// + / ////// ///// ///// / / /+/+ / ///// / // //// ///// + + ///// + / ////// /+ / //+ / / //// ++ + +/// ++ / //// / +/ /////+ + / /////+ + /+///// + ////++ / ////+ + / //// ////// //// / / ////// + / +/ ///// +/ +/ //// / /// ///// /////+ ////+ // + // / / ///// + +///// + +/ / // ///// ///// /// / + //// ///// / ///// // / //+ + / // + ++ ///// + / //// / + //// ++/ +/ / //// +/ /// ////// / /// + / // ////// / // / / ///// ///// + // / / / /// ///// // / // + //// / //// / / //// + + / ///// +/ /+/+/ // / +// / / + /// / // /// //// + + / //// / //// + //// + / + ///// // /+ / / + ////// / + /// / // / + /+/ / / /// + /// +/ / /// //+/ //// / / / / /// / / // + ///// / / / /+/ //// ///// / + ++ + / /// / ///// + / / / +//// / /// // / / + ///// / //+/ /// / ///// +//// / / + ///// + // // // // +/ /++ / / ///+ + ////// ++/+ + // / // / + // + / // / / ///// / / ///+ //// //// + / /// // / // + / ++ / / / // + / // / + / / / // + / + / / / + / / + / /+ / / + / / / + + + / + /+ / / //// ////// ///// / + // / / // / /// / + / // // / /////+ ///// + / //// // /// / +//// / / + ///// / +// + // / + ///// + ///// + /// / /+/ / // / + + ///// ///// /+ ///// + ///// + // / // / / / /////+ / / + + / / ///+/ ///// + ///// / / +// / //// + / + + + / / / / / / + / / + / ++ / + + + + / //// / // // ++ / / / / + + / / / // / / //+ +/ + / / //+ + / + / +/ // / / / // / / / / / + / + +// / / / + + + / / / + + + + / / /// + + + + / + + ++ / // +// / ++// / / /+ / ++ + / + // + / + //+ +/ / ++ / + / / / / +/ + + / + / +/ / + / / / + + + + + + / + + /+ + / + + + / + / + / / // / / / / / + +/ + + / / + + + / + + + + / /+ /+ + + + ++ / / + + + / / / + + + / / + + / / + / + + / / /+ + + / // + + / / / / + / ++ /+ + + + // / + / / / / / / + / / / + // + + / + + /+ + / / / + / / / + / / + + + + / / ++ / / + / + + / + / + ++ / /+ + +/+ / / + / / + + / / + / / + + ++ +/ / + / / / + / / / / / + //+/ + / / / + / / / / / ++ + +/ + / / + / / + + + / + + + + + ++ + / / / / / + + + + + / + / / // / / ++ + / + / / / + + / + ++ +/ + + + / / ++ / + + // / / / + + + + / / + + + + / / / + + / / / + + + + + / / / + /// / / + / / +///+ +/ +//// /// / + + + + / // ////////// //+ /////// / ///// ///// ////// ///// / / / = ------=_ _ _ _ . -- _ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 00:49:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: that was oppenheim graham, anderson, acconci, acker, mayer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII that was oppenheim graham, anderson, acconci, acker, mayer that was andrew, cynthia david, burke, miller, jordan, amera that was downsboro, andre, stella, judd flavin, walter, clark that was coolidge, aycock, tom, abish, waldman piper, richard that was nonas, adrian, saroyan anne, rothenberg, peter, gordon that was susan, byars, peter, hykes, kaye marcia, fend, wark that was resnick, james lee, nancy david, david, dara, askevold _ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 02:31:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: I would rather rule them. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I want my freedom. I would rather rule them. After all, if you really don't think you can make some Alan, most people are just trying to improve their lives and take, if you ever think of Alan, this person almost missed out on getting Alan, we got sick and tired of seeing GOOD PEOPLE fail and lose, Alan. Either way we need to know if you're in or you're out because these people think FREEDOM the greatest thing in the world, Alan. I have to agree with you at this point, Alan., Alan., Alan. That's O, Alan. K, Alan. I truly wish you the best and hope you find what it is you're rewarding Alan, Alan. If you are no longer interested in turning your computer into God, Alan. We hope this makes it easier to understand, Alan. Now please go to the link just let me know, Alan. I absolutely LOVE letting you know we placed another person under you, Alan. like YOU, looking for these people under someone else who is ready, Alan. you ever feel like giving me a chance to help you create these or other people, Alan. After all, Alan, they value their freedom but really would rather be under you, Alan. _ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 07:27:10 -0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "david.bircumshaw" Subject: Re: Hermaphrodite poems, anyone? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anne I know perfectly well about mid-line trochees in iambic lines. Initial trochees are a well-understood phenomena, they are called holding up the line, as too regular iambic beats tend towards a kind of drowsiness, a lulling regularity that outshapes the expectation of what will follow. My point was that your statement that there was only one trochee in Kirby's pseudo-poem was quite literally incorrect, the first line begins with two and then resolves into iambs, afterwards the poem is just fudge. I know very well about headless lines, but in order to do that you have to establish a norm in the first place. My own spirituality is in tatters, btw, I think evil runs this world, full stop. Maybe its testaments will be published by SALT. With monuments of poetry by the living dead who control us despite what sins we shed David Bircumshaw Spectare's Web, A Chide's Alphabet & Painting Without Numbers http://www.chidesalphabet.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Annie Finch" To: Sent: Monday, January 26, 2004 1:42 PM Subject: Re: Hermaphrodite poems, anyone? David, that's what line-initially means in my last sentence: at the beginning of a line--,,if a trochee happens line-initially or after a caesura, it doesn't break the meter....but since Dan was asking if anything could break the meter, if anything did it would be a trochee in mid-line, not after a caesura, not line-iniitally--which you will probably remember was Halle and Keyser's great discovery, yes? (though obviously plenty of poets break this rule and get away with it, anyway, as Thomas does in Do Not go Gentle into that Good night...all a question of ear). Though since I heard the whole passage as iambic and was using that bottom line method, I was scanning the first line of Kirby's poem as a "headless" iambic line with an anapest in third foot, which is much simpler to my ear in an iambic context than scanning it with two trochees, since it manifests the rising rhythm: (scansion: (omitted first syllable )WALK/ing SLOW /ly aLONG / the IC/ y ROAD) However, scanning it as two trochees and three iambs makes sense to me too, though in an iambic context I believe the general principle is to keep falling feet (trochees and dactyls) to a minimum as much as possible if you can easily scan it another way, which in this case you can. Of course you are entitled to your own trained ear. I've heard too many endless prosodic arguments to get into one. Annie At 7:51 AM +0000 1/26/04, david.bircumshaw wrote: > >Dan, fyi, the spondees and caesuras wouldn't sink Kirby's Titanic, >but a couple of trochees in the wrong places would (cf Halle and >Keyser's classic essay "The Iambic Pentameter"). The tipoff for me >that it really was iambic pentameter was the fact that the single >trochee in the passage appears after a caesura--trochees (and >dactyls) are the only thing you really have to watch in iambics, and >you need to put them after caesuras or line-initially if you don't >want to sink it.< > >Anne, for your information, without wanting to upset your assumptions of >being a superior and metrically trained ear, but the first line in Kirby's >lamentable fragment STARTS with two trochees, that is to say a true 'foot'. >After that line one does resolve into iambic beats. Afterwards, in its three >following lines, it is just a fudge, a neither here nor there. But your >statement about the single trochee in the passage - it begins, remember, >WALKing SLOWly, is so inept a piece of pseudo-metrical analysis that it >almost deserves an award. > >From my trained ear. > >David Bircumshaw > >Spectare's Web, A Chide's Alphabet >& Painting Without Numbers > >http://www.chidesalphabet.org.uk > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Annie Finch" >To: >Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2004 6:44 PM >Subject: Re: Hermaphrodite poems, anyone? > > >Responses to a few responses to the scansion issue & related topics: > >Tim, you put it well to say that meter is a way of transcribing sound >and not an ideal or mechanical system. With that in mind, scansion >needs to be sensitive. In your scansion of KIrby's lines, yes, you >do account for each separate line in some kind of theoretically >accurate metrical way....but this scansion you posted is not >sensitive to the rhythmic dynamics of passage as a passage of verse. >Scansion is not a linear academic exercise whose point is to line up >a bunch of assorted feet in a row, as you do here with the apparently >deliberate goal of finding nothing in common rhythmically among the >lines. Skillful scansion is a three-dimensional process, the >creation of a kind of hologram, whose goal is to capture the pulse >that ties a metrical passage together. Occam's razor applies to >scansion probably more closely than to other areas of literary >inquiry. If you are going to bother to scan some verse and want to >do it justice, you need to find the simplest way to transcribe the >shared rhythmic groove by listening to the passage as a whole, if it >will let you. In this case, it will let you. > >These lines of Kirby's DO share a common beat, audible to a >metrically-trained ear, and sure, you can mark 'em up and "scan" >them as anapestic or trochaic lines or whatever you want, have a >field day, but the fact is that the only metrical context in which >they could all appear together is iambic pentameter, and each of them >can fit in that context with no distortion (one of the reasons some >people (not me) like the meter so much is because it can encompass so >many variations). n other words,in this case, only iambic pentameter >explains the rhythmic beat that ties this quatrain together. So >iambic pentameter is the most "correct" scansion, in the sense that >it is the most intelligent scansion--not because you can't mark up >the accents dozens of other ways, but because only iambic pentameter >transcribes the SHARED groove, rhythm, beat, of each line. These are >not very weird iambic pentameters, either, as I said earlier; If I >had time I am sure I could find exact metrical analogues of each of >these lines in the blank verse of, say, Frost. > >So the scansion you posted lacks an overarching vision or ear, and it >also lacks sophistication, in that it misses very obvious conventions >of the meter (the caesura followed by a trochee, iamb, and >extra-syllable ending in the last line, for instance, is not at all >unusual in i.p.; to call it caesura dactyl trochee reveals your ear's >lack of familiarity with the conventions, as does your not hearing >the first line as a headless (acephalous) iambic, also a common >variation. This all sounds abstract but is really just a way of >transcribing a physical beat that is quite palpable if your ear knows >what to look for, like listening for the chord progressions in jazz. >Admittedly, scansion is subjective, but it's not COMPLETELY >subjective, and there are some cases where to insist on subjectivity >just reveals that you may not be as familiar with scansion as you >think you are (an understandable mistake when hardly anyone knows >anything at all about it and probably very few people could have come >up with a metrical account as accurate as the one you did come up >with) > >Dan, fyi, the spondees and caesuras wouldn't sink Kirby's Titanic, >but a couple of trochees in the wrong places would (cf Halle and >Keyser's classic essay "The Iambic Pentameter"). The tipoff for me >that it really was iambic pentameter was the fact that the single >trochee in the passage appears after a caesura--trochees (and >dactyls) are the only thing you really have to watch in iambics, and >you need to put them after caesuras or line-initially if you don't >want to sink it. > >As for the whole issue of whether or when it is useful to look for >meter in nonmetrical passages (sorry I forgot who posted about >that--it was the person who knew that you can have an iambic >pentameter with only 4 beats--was it Rob?)--here's a thought on that >issue: meter is either there in a text or it isn't; contrary to how >some people who are not very familiar with meter think about it, >meter does have an objective existence; you can't merely will >something into meter any more than you can will it into a certain key >in music. And if it IS there, it's useful to talk about it to the >same extent it is useful to talk about lyric subjectivity or >alliteration or fractured stynax or any other poetic device: useful >to discuss when it is used in a living way and interestingly, kind of >boring to discuss if it's not. > >---Annie >who, far from being a hammer looking for nails, Tim, prefers to read >poets who do NOT slip into meter unawares. . . > > > >At 10:47 AM -0500 1/23/04, Tim Peterson wrote: > >I suppose if you're a hammer, then everything looks like a nail, but I > >don't see much iambic pentameter in these lines either. I see a variable > >meter that changes with each line. > > > >1: trochaic pentameter with a dactylic variation in the second foot > >2: a barely iambic hexameter that could just as easily be called trochaic. > >One iambic foot, one anapest, another iambic foot, a phyrric foot, and two > >trochees. > >3: anapestic pentameter, but it begins with an iamb > >4: another barely iambic line, pentameter: iamb, anapest, iamb, caesura, > >dactyl, trochee > > > >Meter is an imperfect way of transcribing sound in poetry, not an ideal > >system from which we generate poems like automatons. > > > >Tim > > > > > >Umm.. yup... > >1st line: iambic pentameter, headless , anapest in third foot. 2nd line > >iambic pentameter, anapests in second and third feet, extra-syllable > >ending. 3rd line: iambic pentameter, 4 anapestic substitutions in last 4 ft > >(heavily anapestic but could fit in easily in any post-mid-19th c. iambic > >pentameter context) 4th line: iambic pentameter, anapest in second foot, > >trochee in fourth foot (after a caesura, as is best to keep beat), > >extra-syllable ending. > >is this what you mean? They are all fairly standard modulations...nothing > >very wild. > >Annie > >At 8:26 PM -0500 1/22/04, Daniel Zimmerman wrote: >Iambic > >pentameter? > > > > > > > The Hermaphrodite > > > > > > > > > > > > Walking > >slowly along the icy road > > > > > > She thinks of her babyhood with the > >hippo father > > > > > > & swaddled in clothes how her clit like an > >elephant's trunk > > > > > > Would wander about the room searching for > >peanuts >> > > > > > > >___________________________________ >Annie Finch >http://www.users.muohio.edu/finchar >English Department, Miami University, Ohio > > >Care2 make the world greener! >Help the planet each day! It's free and easy: >http://www.Care2.com/ ___________________________________ Annie Finch http://www.users.muohio.edu/finchar English Department, Miami University, Ohio Care2 make the world greener! Help the planet each day! It's free and easy: http://www.Care2.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 06:45:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Pedro Pietri In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Today's New York Times has a moving article on the poet Pedro Pietri,=20 one of the stalwarts of the Nuyorican Poets Caf=E9: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/27/nyregion/27wide.html?8hpib ___________________________________________________________ The poet: always in partibus infidelium -- Paul Celan ___________________________________________________________ Pierre Joris 6 Madison Place =09 Albany NY 12202 =09 h: 518 426 0433 =09 c: 518 225 7123 =09 o: 518 442 40 85 =09= email: joris@albany.edu http://www.albany.edu/~joris/ ____________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 11:59:40 -0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Todd Swift Subject: one year anniversary of 100 Poets Against The War at nthposition MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable (Please forward - apologies for cross-posting) January 27, 2004 Fellow friends and poets, It was one year ago today - the day of the then-infamous Blix report - = that www.nthposition.com published the first Internet anti-war poetry, = in book form, 100 Poets Against The War. A week earlier, our first call = for poems against war had gone out. A year later, Iraq is still in the = news, and tomorrow sees the Hutton report; less has changed than we = hoped. Still, with the help of tens of thousands of poets, readers, peace = protesters and other cultural activists, and in tandem with like-minded = organizations around the world, the peace-poetry-protest grassroots = movement of 2003 made history. We did not stop the war, but we made = certain that the alternative voice, that of humanity at its best, was = also heard. To bear witness in dark times is not enough, perhaps, but = is preferable to accepting illegal aggression. I am writing today to thank you for all you did in 2003; and to remind = you that it is not too late to get your own personal record of this = remarkable moment in culture, politics, and global awareness. Free = ebook versions can still be downloaded at nthposition. Perhaps more = importantly, the Salt (Cambridge) version -published and launched in = London, March 5, 2003 - is available at Amazon (UK and in America and = Canada) for order; profits go to Amnesty.=20 Salt was the first publisher in the world to put their money, time and = energy behind the poetry peace initiative, and their anthology deserves = your support, now as much as then. If you haven't already done so, = please place an order today; or share a free ecopy with a friend. Most of all, I wish to express my appreciation for the work you have = done over the year, and to wish you - and the world in general - a = better, and more peaceful 2004. Yours, Todd Swift editor 100 Poets Against The War ps Val Stevenson, editor of nthposition, spent hundreds of hours last = year on this project, and I continue to shake my head in bewildered awe = at her energy and commitment. Thank you Val, for all your work in 2003. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 09:48:42 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Laura Elrick Subject: Alan Gilbert and Jennifer Scappettone in NYC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit SEGUE READING SERIES AT THE BOWERY POETRY CLUB Saturday, January 31: Alan Gilbert and Jennifer Scappettone Alan Gilbert's writings on poetry, art, culture, and politics have appeared in numerous publications, as have his poems. He lives in Brooklyn. Jennifer Scappettone's writing has appeared recently in The Poker, Volt, can we have our ball back?, Xantippe, Enough, Boston Review, Third Factory, The Poetry Project Newsletter, and other journals. She has translated extensively from the poetry of Amelia Rosselli. Other projects include exhibitions of visual texts in Chikusa Subway Station and This is It! Gallery in Japan and in the Worth Ryder Gallery in Berkeley, and sound performances with John D'Earth in Charlottesville, Otomo Yoshihide in Nagoya, and Jason Levis around the San Francisco Bay Area. She was the editor of the magazine MonZen, and she currently co-curates the Holloway Poetry Series and the 21st-Century Poetics Series in Berkeley. http://www.bowerypoetry.com/ 308 BOWERY, JUST NORTH OF HOUSTON SATURDAYS FROM 4 - 6 PM $4 admission goes to support the readers Funding is made possible by the continuing support of the Segue Foundation and the Literature Program of the New York State Council on the Arts. The Winter / Spring 2004 Calendar is now online. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 07:50:00 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: new@kari edwards' transdada In-Reply-To: <000001c3e408$32f7fc90$6401a8c0@Dell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable new@kari edwards' transdada http://transdada.blogspot.com/ *East German Steroids' Toll: 'They Killed Heidi' *Puppyflowers 5 is online...!!! *the new Winter issue of Word For/Word *Drunken Boat Launch Party *Study: Genes may trump nurture with intersex kids *At the Poets' Theater Jamboree, verse goes live on stage. *Catholic cardinal: 'Most gays are perverts' *the Mother=97Auroville India *The nation's mentally ill Now they're stowed in prisons. *Chile: Threats to Transvestite(sic) Human Rights Campaigner *transgender attorney and activist who founded the Sylvia Rivera Law=20 Project in 2002.=20= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 10:48:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tim Peterson Subject: Re: Hermaphrodite poems, anyone? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Annie, While I have respect for your ear, and with all respect to you, I personally don't think the issue of naming meters matters all that much here, except as a device for the poet to use if he or she is trying to fix a line that sounds awkward, and even then only if he or she wants the poem to sound like it's from an older tradition. I don't think language is inherently metrical -- meter is something we impose on it later, or a way of transcribing sound. There are too many things language does that meter as an abstract system doesn't explain, like how speech acts and the type of address, the tone of a passage, generative assonance etc., affect sound, and it's worth exploring those. Why does a poem have to have some overarching metrical "theme"? Why can't a poem move in and out of meter? Why can't that pattern change moment-to-moment? Leap into the open! If you look at it from this perspective my scansion makes perfect sense, because I was not trying to question your expertise in your field (you are probably the most knowledgeable one on this topic), but I was trying to point out that the piece was not really as obviously iambic pentameter as you claimed. If you respond by saying that "Skillful scansion is a three-dimensional process, the creation of a kind of hologram, whose goal is to capture the pulse that ties a metrical passage together.", well I certainly can't disprove that because it's circular reasoning. We're back inside the system of metrical rules, "shoulds" and "shouldn'ts" that I was trying to work my way out of in the first place. Though I respect your knowledge on the topic, I personally find meter to be a little like talking about how much the clothes I'm wearing cost me when I bought them at the store. I'd rather just wear the clothes and live in them, if you know what I mean. Best, Tim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Annie Finch" To: Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2004 6:44 PM Subject: Re: Hermaphrodite poems, anyone? Responses to a few responses to the scansion issue & related topics: Tim, you put it well to say that meter is a way of transcribing sound and not an ideal or mechanical system. With that in mind, scansion needs to be sensitive. In your scansion of KIrby's lines, yes, you do account for each separate line in some kind of theoretically accurate metrical way....but this scansion you posted is not sensitive to the rhythmic dynamics of passage as a passage of verse. Scansion is not a linear academic exercise whose point is to line up a bunch of assorted feet in a row, as you do here with the apparently deliberate goal of finding nothing in common rhythmically among the lines. Skillful scansion is a three-dimensional process, the creation of a kind of hologram, whose goal is to capture the pulse that ties a metrical passage together. Occam's razor applies to scansion probably more closely than to other areas of literary inquiry. If you are going to bother to scan some verse and want to do it justice, you need to find the simplest way to transcribe the shared rhythmic groove by listening to the passage as a whole, if it will let you. In this case, it will let you. These lines of Kirby's DO share a common beat, audible to a metrically-trained ear, and sure, you can mark 'em up and "scan" them as anapestic or trochaic lines or whatever you want, have a field day, but the fact is that the only metrical context in which they could all appear together is iambic pentameter, and each of them can fit in that context with no distortion (one of the reasons some people (not me) like the meter so much is because it can encompass so many variations). n other words,in this case, only iambic pentameter explains the rhythmic beat that ties this quatrain together. So iambic pentameter is the most "correct" scansion, in the sense that it is the most intelligent scansion--not because you can't mark up the accents dozens of other ways, but because only iambic pentameter transcribes the SHARED groove, rhythm, beat, of each line. These are not very weird iambic pentameters, either, as I said earlier; If I had time I am sure I could find exact metrical analogues of each of these lines in the blank verse of, say, Frost. So the scansion you posted lacks an overarching vision or ear, and it also lacks sophistication, in that it misses very obvious conventions of the meter (the caesura followed by a trochee, iamb, and extra-syllable ending in the last line, for instance, is not at all unusual in i.p.; to call it caesura dactyl trochee reveals your ear's lack of familiarity with the conventions, as does your not hearing the first line as a headless (acephalous) iambic, also a common variation. This all sounds abstract but is really just a way of transcribing a physical beat that is quite palpable if your ear knows what to look for, like listening for the chord progressions in jazz. Admittedly, scansion is subjective, but it's not COMPLETELY subjective, and there are some cases where to insist on subjectivity just reveals that you may not be as familiar with scansion as you think you are (an understandable mistake when hardly anyone knows anything at all about it and probably very few people could have come up with a metrical account as accurate as the one you did come up with) Dan, fyi, the spondees and caesuras wouldn't sink Kirby's Titanic, but a couple of trochees in the wrong places would (cf Halle and Keyser's classic essay "The Iambic Pentameter"). The tipoff for me that it really was iambic pentameter was the fact that the single trochee in the passage appears after a caesura--trochees (and dactyls) are the only thing you really have to watch in iambics, and you need to put them after caesuras or line-initially if you don't want to sink it. As for the whole issue of whether or when it is useful to look for meter in nonmetrical passages (sorry I forgot who posted about that--it was the person who knew that you can have an iambic pentameter with only 4 beats--was it Rob?)--here's a thought on that issue: meter is either there in a text or it isn't; contrary to how some people who are not very familiar with meter think about it, meter does have an objective existence; you can't merely will something into meter any more than you can will it into a certain key in music. And if it IS there, it's useful to talk about it to the same extent it is useful to talk about lyric subjectivity or alliteration or fractured stynax or any other poetic device: useful to discuss when it is used in a living way and interestingly, kind of boring to discuss if it's not. ---Annie who, far from being a hammer looking for nails, Tim, prefers to read poets who do NOT slip into meter unawares. . . At 10:47 AM -0500 1/23/04, Tim Peterson wrote: >I suppose if you're a hammer, then everything looks like a nail, but I >don't see much iambic pentameter in these lines either. I see a variable >meter that changes with each line. > >1: trochaic pentameter with a dactylic variation in the second foot >2: a barely iambic hexameter that could just as easily be called trochaic. >One iambic foot, one anapest, another iambic foot, a phyrric foot, and two >trochees. >3: anapestic pentameter, but it begins with an iamb >4: another barely iambic line, pentameter: iamb, anapest, iamb, caesura, >dactyl, trochee > >Meter is an imperfect way of transcribing sound in poetry, not an ideal >system from which we generate poems like automatons. > >Tim > Tim Peterson Journals Marketing Coordinator The MIT Press Five Cambridge Center Cambridge, MA 02142-1493 phone: (617) 258-0595 fax: (617) 258-5028 http://mitpress.mit.edu/journals ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 11:18:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tim Peterson Subject: Re: scansion and/as religion Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Kirby, I'm sorry, but I can't let this one go. First of all, this "political correctness" thing. It's like a paranoid conspiracy theory. The accusation of political correctness assumes that all these discourses -- race, class, and gender -- form some kind of unified leftist "front." In fact they don't, and they are fighting each other all the time. Gender and race are competing discourses, in a way. Good example: I attended college where the queer white people practically never interacted with the African-American activists, and I'm sure the two groups would have given you vastly different pictures of the world had you asked. There's no one position that "solves for" the politically correct. If this is the case, what's so "correct" about any political position? Secondly, I have to disagree with you that race and gender do not define people to any great extent. I beg your pardon, but that's just an idiotic thing to say. Historically and demographically speaking, being born a certain race has been an extremely limiting factor for many in this country. We're only into, what, the second or third generation of black people after Martin Luther King and Malcolm X? Heck, being any kind of MINORITY is a formative experience because it means you have little power and fewer options than most people. As for the gender thing, that's a little more complicated and I think can be most usefully understood as an underlying pattern that structures a lot of social interactions, creating a seductiveness and exerting a kind of power too. I think gender also needs to be understood in the context of feminism and the underlying cognitive metaphors ossified in our ordinary speech. Gender is literally everywhere in this territory -- your boss tells you to "get on top of" something, or for example the aspiring middle class is put down by being called bourgeois or "effeminate"...there's a kind of nasty undertone re: how we as a group think about women woven throughout the language we use everyday. I mean, it's REALLY obvious but something like being a "pussy" (whether this label is assigned to a man or a woman, if we're dealing with the phallus rather than the penis) for example, if not the still-enormous discrepancy of wages between men and women, should point out that gender is a pretty damn defining characteristic for anyone! Best, Tim Here's a link with the breakdown of numbers of religions in the US -- they don't list political correctness, which I think is the biggest religion among the young. It's creed is very hard to pin down -- I think it is something like respect everybody's uniqueness, don't judge anybody for any reason, and allow each person to define themselves. http://wwwreligioustolerance.org/chr_prac2.htm I don't think race and gender define people to any great extent. But religion really does, because it's about a person's chosen beliefs, rather than accidental exterior criteria which mean next to nothing. -- Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 11:33:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jonathan Skinner Subject: Apartment in Paris Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit 2-room apartment (plus bath and kitchen) with a view, Paris 11th arrondissement. Available from Feb. 15. Ideal for writers! Call Isabelle at (716) 834-0958 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 11:32:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Annie Finch Subject: Re: Hermaphrodite poems, anyone? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040127102329.02ddd430@po14.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Dear Tim, You may not have seen a later post where I said that your scansion did point out rhythms that do exist in the lines in question, and which would still be present as "cross-rhythms" that add to the texture of the passage even if the passage is scanned as iambic pentameter. Your scansion does point out those cross-rhythms very sensitively... but I don't think it tells the whole metrical story of Kirby's passage of fudge... Since you HAD bothered to scan the passage, my point was simply to point out that scanning it only as a hodgepodge of different meters wasn't a complete scansion when there was an overarching rhythm present as well....(not existing naturally in the language, no, I agree with you there, but rather imposed on the language by Kirby, the poet, whether consciously or un-)... you recall I prefaced my whole discussion by saying, "if you bother to scan at all," which you had in fact bothered to do. Whether scansion is worth doing at all is a whole other matter, and of which poems. My personal feeling is that if a poem is metrical, often scanning can make me much more aware of how it works. Just like knowing about the laws of perspective can help me appreciate a drawing made according to those laws (and also, very important point, realize the limitations of that drawing!). But sometimes, you're right, scansion doesn't shed much light at all. Anyway, some like to scan, and some don't, and beyond that there may not be a very interesting argument. Who ever said a poem "has" to be metrical or have an overarching metrical theme?--that would be a ludicrous claim--lots of poems move in and out of meter (that's the subject of my book ghost of meter, actually) and plenty more have nothing to do with meter at all. Maybe you are projecting some repressed inner compulsion of your own here? My only point was that if there is an overarching metrical theme, a good scansion will notice that. I don't think ignoring something that exists, even if only on one level, even if it doesn't account for all the language of a poem, is a real substitute for informed eclecticism and openness. There is so much fear attending on meter nowadays--I think the clue to the source of your fear may lie in the phrase "older tradition"--maybe you have repressed meter more deeply than it wants to be repressed, writing it off into the category of "older"-itself a category worth questioning (like older women, are older poetic traditions supposed to just dry up and stop making trouble?)--to me the questioning of the assumption that things that are older are necessarily dead or worthless is one of the basic drives of "post"modernism--anyway, when things are repressed too much they do have a way of turning monstrous. You could maybe just lighten it up a bit? Nobody is forcing poetry to do anything.....just offering descriptions of it.. . . Annie .At 10:48 AM -0500 1/27/04, Tim Peterson wrote: >Annie, > >While I have respect for your ear, and with all respect to you, I >personally don't think the issue of naming meters matters all that much >here, except as a device for the poet to use if he or she is trying to fix >a line that sounds awkward, and even then only if he or she wants the poem >to sound like it's from an older tradition. I don't think language is >inherently metrical -- meter is something we impose on it later, or a way >of transcribing sound. There are too many things language does that meter >as an abstract system doesn't explain, like how speech acts and the type of >address, the tone of a passage, generative assonance etc., affect sound, >and it's worth exploring those. Why does a poem have to have some >overarching metrical "theme"? Why can't a poem move in and out of meter? >Why can't that pattern change moment-to-moment? Leap into the open! If you >look at it from this perspective my scansion makes perfect sense, because I >was not trying to question your expertise in your field (you are probably >the most knowledgeable one on this topic), but I was trying to point out >that the piece was not really as obviously iambic pentameter as you >claimed. If you respond by saying that "Skillful scansion is a >three-dimensional process, the creation of a kind of hologram, whose goal >is to capture the pulse that ties a metrical passage together.", well I >certainly can't disprove that because it's circular reasoning. We're back >inside the system of metrical rules, "shoulds" and "shouldn'ts" that I was >trying to work my way out of in the first place. > >Though I respect your knowledge on the topic, I personally find meter to be >a little like talking about how much the clothes I'm wearing cost me when I >bought them at the store. I'd rather just wear the clothes and live in >them, if you know what I mean. > >Best, > >Tim > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Annie Finch" >To: >Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2004 6:44 PM >Subject: Re: Hermaphrodite poems, anyone? > > >Responses to a few responses to the scansion issue & related topics: > >Tim, you put it well to say that meter is a way of transcribing sound >and not an ideal or mechanical system. With that in mind, scansion >needs to be sensitive. In your scansion of KIrby's lines, yes, you >do account for each separate line in some kind of theoretically >accurate metrical way....but this scansion you posted is not >sensitive to the rhythmic dynamics of passage as a passage of verse. >Scansion is not a linear academic exercise whose point is to line up >a bunch of assorted feet in a row, as you do here with the apparently >deliberate goal of finding nothing in common rhythmically among the >lines. Skillful scansion is a three-dimensional process, the >creation of a kind of hologram, whose goal is to capture the pulse >that ties a metrical passage together. Occam's razor applies to >scansion probably more closely than to other areas of literary >inquiry. If you are going to bother to scan some verse and want to >do it justice, you need to find the simplest way to transcribe the >shared rhythmic groove by listening to the passage as a whole, if it >will let you. In this case, it will let you. > >These lines of Kirby's DO share a common beat, audible to a >metrically-trained ear, and sure, you can mark 'em up and "scan" >them as anapestic or trochaic lines or whatever you want, have a >field day, but the fact is that the only metrical context in which >they could all appear together is iambic pentameter, and each of them >can fit in that context with no distortion (one of the reasons some >people (not me) like the meter so much is because it can encompass so >many variations). n other words,in this case, only iambic pentameter >explains the rhythmic beat that ties this quatrain together. So >iambic pentameter is the most "correct" scansion, in the sense that >it is the most intelligent scansion--not because you can't mark up >the accents dozens of other ways, but because only iambic pentameter >transcribes the SHARED groove, rhythm, beat, of each line. These are >not very weird iambic pentameters, either, as I said earlier; If I >had time I am sure I could find exact metrical analogues of each of >these lines in the blank verse of, say, Frost. > >So the scansion you posted lacks an overarching vision or ear, and it >also lacks sophistication, in that it misses very obvious conventions >of the meter (the caesura followed by a trochee, iamb, and >extra-syllable ending in the last line, for instance, is not at all >unusual in i.p.; to call it caesura dactyl trochee reveals your ear's >lack of familiarity with the conventions, as does your not hearing >the first line as a headless (acephalous) iambic, also a common >variation. This all sounds abstract but is really just a way of >transcribing a physical beat that is quite palpable if your ear knows >what to look for, like listening for the chord progressions in jazz. >Admittedly, scansion is subjective, but it's not COMPLETELY >subjective, and there are some cases where to insist on subjectivity >just reveals that you may not be as familiar with scansion as you >think you are (an understandable mistake when hardly anyone knows >anything at all about it and probably very few people could have come >up with a metrical account as accurate as the one you did come up >with) > >Dan, fyi, the spondees and caesuras wouldn't sink Kirby's Titanic, >but a couple of trochees in the wrong places would (cf Halle and >Keyser's classic essay "The Iambic Pentameter"). The tipoff for me >that it really was iambic pentameter was the fact that the single >trochee in the passage appears after a caesura--trochees (and >dactyls) are the only thing you really have to watch in iambics, and >you need to put them after caesuras or line-initially if you don't >want to sink it. > >As for the whole issue of whether or when it is useful to look for >meter in nonmetrical passages (sorry I forgot who posted about >that--it was the person who knew that you can have an iambic >pentameter with only 4 beats--was it Rob?)--here's a thought on that >issue: meter is either there in a text or it isn't; contrary to how >some people who are not very familiar with meter think about it, >meter does have an objective existence; you can't merely will >something into meter any more than you can will it into a certain key >in music. And if it IS there, it's useful to talk about it to the >same extent it is useful to talk about lyric subjectivity or >alliteration or fractured stynax or any other poetic device: useful >to discuss when it is used in a living way and interestingly, kind of >boring to discuss if it's not. > >---Annie >who, far from being a hammer looking for nails, Tim, prefers to read >poets who do NOT slip into meter unawares. . . > > > >At 10:47 AM -0500 1/23/04, Tim Peterson wrote: > >I suppose if you're a hammer, then everything looks like a nail, but I > >don't see much iambic pentameter in these lines either. I see a variable > >meter that changes with each line. > > > >1: trochaic pentameter with a dactylic variation in the second foot > >2: a barely iambic hexameter that could just as easily be called trochaic. > >One iambic foot, one anapest, another iambic foot, a phyrric foot, and two > >trochees. > >3: anapestic pentameter, but it begins with an iamb > >4: another barely iambic line, pentameter: iamb, anapest, iamb, caesura, > >dactyl, trochee > > > >Meter is an imperfect way of transcribing sound in poetry, not an ideal > >system from which we generate poems like automatons. > > > >Tim > > > >Tim Peterson >Journals Marketing Coordinator >The MIT Press >Five Cambridge Center >Cambridge, MA 02142-1493 > >phone: (617) 258-0595 >fax: (617) 258-5028 >http://mitpress.mit.edu/journals ___________________________________ Annie Finch http://www.users.muohio.edu/finchar English Department, Miami University, Ohio Care2 make the world greener! Help the planet each day! It's free and easy: http://www.Care2.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 09:22:33 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Summi Kaipa Subject: the art of the book Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed a call out for help on the poetics list: i am looking to curate a show of "book arts" in june. that said, i'm realizing that the concept of the book as art is confusing and conflated with many other things. here in san francisco, it seems particularly wrapped up in the concept of zine, which, perhaps because it's been done before and is done again and again (possibly without much consideration of form at this point), seems less interesting than the other progeny of book arts that have emerged. of course, i'm not even certain i know what the definition of book arts is. i only know that i want to define it as a place where the book transcends its two dimensionality--both literally and figuratively. one of the most typical examples is that of letterpress, where the page becomes, literally, three dimensional through the raised surface of the paper. i equally feel attracted to the books of theresa hak-kyung cha as exploratory landscapes of "sense" in a book and also compelled by the work of people like ian hamilton finlay, who, by making something like little sparta, have taken the "book" to another level. the book is the yard, is the landscape. am i off the mark here? what do other people think? can interested listers chime in and briefly respond to my poll so that i can gather fodder? 1. what is the most salient thing that comes to mind when talking about book arts? 2. what are some examples of historical and/or current book arts practice? 3. what is the definition of book arts? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 09:23:49 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hilton Obenzinger Subject: Lewis Macadams and His 20-Year Art Project Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed In my latest copy of The New Yorker there's an article about Lewis Macadams and his 20 year campaign to restore the moribund LA River to something vaguely approximating a pure product of America. I haven't seen him in many years, but I was delighted to read of his persistence and his attitude of social action as an art form and spiritual practice. Even some of his poetry was quoted. And the fact that his long quixotic campaign has begun to show results delighted me even more. I don't think anyone else noted this here, and I thought it was worth bringing to this list's attention. Hilton Obenzinger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hilton Obenzinger, PhD. Associate Director for Honors Writing, Undergraduate Research Programs Lecturer, Department of English Stanford University 415 Sweet Hall 650.723.0330 650.724.5400 Fax obenzinger@stanford.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 09:36:55 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kazim Ali Subject: Re: Hermaphrodite poems, anyone? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii it's lovely and odd that the thread on meter has this hermaphroditic title. > Whether scansion is worth doing at all is a whole > other matter, and > of which poems. My personal feeling is that if a > poem is metrical, > often scanning can make me much more aware of how it > works. but sometimes also the "scanning" is unintentional--in the ear only--this is only when one has listened to a lot of it or read a lot of it. seeing how--for example--eminem or gwendolyn brooks or james wright flips a foot here or there--will register in the ear without sitting and marking a lyric sheet or a poem Just like > knowing about the laws of perspective can help me > appreciate a > drawing made according to those laws (and also, very > important point, > realize the limitations of that drawing!). also understanding the laws of perspective will increase the understanding of what George Braque or Hans Hofmann or Farouk Hosny is trying to do in painting which renounces classical perspective. > There is so much fear attending on meter nowadays--I > think the clue > to the source of your fear may lie in the phrase > "older > tradition"--maybe you have repressed meter more > deeply than it wants > to be repressed, writing it off into the category of but to go back to the ghazal--is this why western writers of the ghazal at first denied any of the formal qualities (see Adrienne Rich's early ghazals or Galway Kinnell's) and then (after Agha Shahid Ali's rigorous campaign) continue to write the ghazals in free verse rather than with metrical scheme as they appear in Urdu? and why do non-Indian folks want to Indian names as Ka-zeem or Sha-heed or Na-heed when there are plenty of trochaic names in English like Philip or Michael or Robert that will teach one how to say Kazim, Shahid, or Naheed? Anyways--sorry that last part is a little unrelated. ===== ==== WAR IS OVER (if you want it) (e-mail president@whitehouse.gov) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 11:21:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: charles alexander Subject: Re: the art of the book In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040127090059.0234a178@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Dear Summi This is, in many ways, contested territory. I like the way you are thinking about it, and I lov Theresa Cha's works, in book form and otherwise. I'm surpised, though, that in San Francisco "zines" first come to mind, as the Bay Area is a place rich in book making history of various kinds. You might want to get yourself to the San Francisco Center for the Book at 300 DeHaro Street, and see what people are up to there. There will be a range. The most salient thing that comes to my mind is works, in book form, made by artists; or, works made using the traditional arts of the book (letterpress printing, hand papermaking hand bookbinding, etc.), but not necessarily using them in traditional ways -- but as soon as I say this, work of great offset-print book artists, like Brad Freeman or Todd Walker, comes to mind. There are so many historical and current works: just to throw out some names -- William Morris Cobden-Sanderson Harry Duncan Claire Van Vliet Walter Hamady Frances Butler Alistair Johnston Richard Minsky Katherine Kuehn Ruth Lingen Pati Scobey and so many many more that it's difficult to know how to direct you. I'd also include work I've done at Chax Press and Black Mesa Press before it. On this Buffalo list, there are probably several others who have made interesting book arts works, certainly including Miekal And and, recently, Kyle Schlesinger. Johanna Drucker is both an extraordinary book maker and something of an authority in the field. You might consult her book, THE CENTURY OF ARTIST'S BOOKS, the first chapter of which is online at . I've published things in various journals, but they may be hard to find. There's a catalogue still up online of an exhibition I was included in and involved in back in August/September, Love and/or Terror: An Artists' Book Symposium and Exhibition. I wrote, with a group of others, the introductory essay to Breaking the Bindings: American Book Art Now, published by the Elvehjem Museum of Art at the University of Wisconsin in 1983. That was one of the first, if not the very first, museum-scale exhibitions of American artist's books and book arts, and if you can find that catalogue, it's still a good resource. I'm sure if you start some of these places, you'll get further. Oh, I can't forget to mention the book edited by Steve Clay and Jerome Rothenberg, THE BOOK OF THE BOOK, which you should definitely check out. As far as definitions, I don't want to get into that territory right now. It depends a great deal on how one approaches the field -- from the standpoint of fine art, or from the standpoint of the tradition of the book, or from somewhere else. I think Johanna takes on some of that in the chapter referenced above. Good luck! Charles At 09:22 AM 1/27/2004 -0800, you wrote: >1. what is the most salient thing that comes to mind when talking about >book arts? > >2. what are some examples of historical and/or current book arts practice? > >3. what is the definition of book arts? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 10:52:11 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gloria Frym Subject: Re: the art of the book In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040127090059.0234a178@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I would add to Charles Alexander's wonderful list: Betsy Davids--long time book arts professor at California College of the Arts Peter Koch--master letterpress printer, Berkeley Kathy Walkup--long time book arts professor at Mills College Gillian Boal--head of book and ms. restoration at UC Berkeley Bancroft Library These people are essential to any research and exhibition you may be planning and they are all accessible and brilliant. Gloria Frym MFA Writing Program California College of the Arts On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 09:22:33 -0800 Summi Kaipa wrote: >a call out for help on the poetics list: > >i am looking to curate a show of "book arts" in june. that said, i'm >realizing that the concept of the book as art is confusing and conflated >with many other things. here in san francisco, it seems particularly >wrapped up in the concept of zine, which, perhaps because it's been done >before and is done again and again (possibly without much consideration of >form at this point), seems less interesting than the other progeny of book >arts that have emerged. of course, i'm not even certain i know what the >definition of book arts is. i only know that i want to define it as a >place where the book transcends its two dimensionality--both literally and >figuratively. one of the most typical examples is that of letterpress, >where the page becomes, literally, three dimensional through the raised >surface of the paper. i equally feel attracted to the books of theresa >hak-kyung cha as exploratory landscapes of "sense" in a book and also >compelled by the work of people like ian hamilton finlay, who, by making >something like little sparta, have taken the "book" to another level. the >book is the yard, is the landscape. > >am i off the mark here? what do other people think? can interested >listers chime in and briefly respond to my poll so that i can gather fodder? > >1. what is the most salient thing that comes to mind when talking about >book arts? > >2. what are some examples of historical and/or current book arts practice? > >3. what is the definition of book arts? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 10:51:59 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Iraq: Human Rights Watch Report Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In case anyone missed this current Human Rights Watch report on Iraq and issues of the legitimacy of the USA-Brit invasion and occupation, this article from London's Independent does the job. I would suggest broadcasting this piece among as many as possible. No humanitarian case for Iraq war, says rights group By Kim Sengupta 27 January 2004 The United States and Britain had no justification for invading Iraq either on the grounds of alleged threats from illicit weapons and terrorism, or as a humanitarian mission, an international civil rights group said yesterday. The failure to find Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction has left President George Bush and Tony Blair claiming that the invasion was on humanitarian grounds, said a hard-hitting annual report of Human Rights Watch. It said that the West had done nothing when Saddam massacred Kurds and Shias in the past, and there was no evidence of any continuing mass killings at the start of the war in March 2003. The report claimed that the US and British occupation forces had "sidelined human rights... as a matter of secondary importance. The rule of law has not arrived and Iraq is still beset by the legacy of human rights abuses of the former government, as well as new ones that have emerged under the occupation." The reasons given for war by Mr Bush and Mr Blair - WMD and Saddam's alleged links with international terrorism - hadnot been proved, said Kenneth Roth, executive director of the organisation. He pointed to recent statements by David Kay, the departing head of the Iraq Survey Group, that WMD were unlikey to be discovered, and said it was unlikely that the Hutton report into the death of David Kelly would say anything different. The document praised the American and British forces for striving to minimise civilian casualties during the air campaign, and also for being much more careful in the use of cluster bombs than in previous conflicts. It condemned the Iraqi resistance for indiscriminately bombing public areas. The report maintained that it was "irrelevant" that the US had "unclean hands" in its support for Saddam in the past, or that there were other countries which suffered worse internal repression. Neither were good enough arguments against military intervention on proper humanitarian grounds. However, Human Rights Watch said the US-British attack on Iraq failed to qualify on a number of grounds normally used as a test of justified humanitarian military action. There were no mass killings going on; war was not the only option - legal, economic and political measures could have been taken; there was no evidence that humanitarian purpose was the main one for launching the invasion; the attack did not have the backing of the United Nations or any other multinational body, and the situation in the country has not got better. Mr Roth said: "The Bush administration cannot justify the war in Iraq as a humanitarian intervention, and neither can Tony Blair ... such interventions should be reserved for stopping an imminent or ongoing slaughter. They shouldn't be used to address atrocities that were ignored in the past. "Humanitarianism, even understood broadly as a concern for the welfare of people, was at best a subsidiary motive for the invasion of Iraq." He said: "Over time, the principal justifications originally given for the Iraq war lost much of their force. More than seven months after the declared end of major hostilities, weapons of mass destruction have not been found. No significant pre-war link between Saddam Hussein and international terrorism has been discovered. The difficulty of establishing stable institutions in Iraq is making the country an increasingly unlikely staging ground for promoting democracy in the Middle East." Human Rights Watch criticises the US and Britain for not sending in more troops after the invasion. This, says the report, might have prevented the anarchy after the fall of Saddam's regime. Mr Roth said the Pentagon had acted as if it believed that the Iraqis would welcome the soldiers with open arms. Human Rights Watch is a mainstream body with support across the political spectrum. It does not have a policy of opposing military action. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 19:22:13 -0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Todd Swift Subject: a call for submissions for a poetry anthology to be published in 2005 by Montreal-based DC Books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please forward and/or Post in Your College's English Department =20 Xperiment 05: a call for submissions for a poetry anthology (The = Moosehead Anthology X: Xperiment 05 - working title) to be published in = 2005 by Montreal-based DC Books (www.dcbooks.ca); to be edited by Todd = Swift (www.toddswift.com). Deadline for submissions: May 1, 2004 Theme: 50 Years after 1955, the Future Is Yesterday! =20 1955 saw: the opening of Disneyland; the publication of Lolita; = ultra-high frequency waves produced at M.I.T.; Hammer's The Quatermass = Xperiment; the introduction of the first fluoride toothpaste, Crest; the = International Air Pollution Congress (held in New York City); the debut = of Scrabble; B-52s put into service; Ray Kroc's acquisition of = McDonald's; Elvis's TV debut; Salk's polio vaccine; a time bomb on = United DC-6 flight; Glenn Gould's "Goldberg Variations"; Eisenhower's = upholding of the right to use nuclear weapons in defence; US Congress = ordering all American coins to read "In God We Trust"; the deaths of = James Dean, Wallace Stevens and Albert Einstein; and the birth of Bill = Gates. 50 years later, on the cusp of 2005, we face global warming, mass = species extinction, human cloning, nanotechnology (and grey goo), = genetic engineering, bio-weapons, "the war on terrorism", Internet = viruses (and spam), DVDs, MP3s, text-messaging, Mars exploration (and = potential life on other planets), new virus strains resistant to all = known medicines, hyper-surveillance technology... "History" has moved = on, from the Atomic, via the Information, to the Clone Age. In this = fearsome new world, innovative poetry can and will intersect with the = cultural, political, environmental and scientific breakthroughs that are = about to transform life (so that our near-ancestors may have unlimited = lifespans and inhuman intelligence will be de rigueur). The Moosehead Anthology X: Xperiment 05 will feature = never-before-published "futuristic and/or hyper-new" poetry from = America, Australia, Canada, Ireland, the UK, and elsewhere, focusing on = just such issues - with an emphasis on the environment, science, = technology, and amazing inventions - employing innovative, startling = language representative of the present moment. The aim is to seek a = poetry that is both original in terms of content and linguistic play. =20 Submissions: send as emails to Todd Swift todd@toddswift.com ; with "DC = anthology: author's name" in the subject line. No attachments will be = accepted. Send 3-10 pages of work. Texts should be in the body of the = email, along with a brief 3-4 line biographical note. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 11:23:38 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Corbett Subject: Re: scansion and/as religion In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040127105539.02dd1ec8@po14.mit.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Religion as chosen belief? That makes me laugh. They don't say faith of your fathers for nothing. Tho' I wish Dubya was still an Episcopalian. We might at least be spared the annoying rhetoric then. Robert -- Robert Corbett, Ph.C. "Given the distance of communication, Coordinator of New Programs I hope the words aren't idling on the B40D Gerberding map of my fingertips, but igniting the Phone: (206) 616-0657 wild acres within the probabilities of Fax: (206) 685-3218 spelling" - Rosmarie Waldrop UW Box: 351237 On Tue, 27 Jan 2004, Tim Peterson wrote: > Kirby, > > I'm sorry, but I can't let this one go. First of all, this "political > correctness" thing. It's like a paranoid conspiracy theory. The accusation > of political correctness assumes that all these discourses -- race, class, > and gender -- form some kind of unified leftist "front." In fact they > don't, and they are fighting each other all the time. Gender and race are > competing discourses, in a way. Good example: I attended college where the > queer white people practically never interacted with the African-American > activists, and I'm sure the two groups would have given you vastly > different pictures of the world had you asked. There's no one position that > "solves for" the politically correct. If this is the case, what's so > "correct" about any political position? > > Secondly, I have to disagree with you that race and gender do not define > people to any great extent. I beg your pardon, but that's just an idiotic > thing to say. Historically and demographically speaking, being born a > certain race has been an extremely limiting factor for many in this > country. We're only into, what, the second or third generation of black > people after Martin Luther King and Malcolm X? Heck, being any kind of > MINORITY is a formative experience because it means you have little power > and fewer options than most people. As for the gender thing, that's a > little more complicated and I think can be most usefully understood as an > underlying pattern that structures a lot of social interactions, creating > a seductiveness and exerting a kind of power too. I think gender also needs > to be understood in the context of feminism and the underlying cognitive > metaphors ossified in our ordinary speech. Gender is literally everywhere > in this territory -- your boss tells you to "get on top of" something, or > for example the aspiring middle class is put down by being called bourgeois > or "effeminate"...there's a kind of nasty undertone re: how we as a group > think about women woven throughout the language we use everyday. I mean, > it's REALLY obvious but something like being a "pussy" (whether this label > is assigned to a man or a woman, if we're dealing with the phallus rather > than the penis) for example, if not the still-enormous discrepancy of wages > between men and women, should point out that gender is a pretty damn > defining characteristic for anyone! > > Best, > > Tim > > > > Here's a link with the breakdown of numbers of religions in the US -- they > don't list political correctness, which I think is the biggest religion > among the young. It's creed is very hard to pin down -- I think it is > something like respect everybody's uniqueness, don't judge anybody for any > reason, and allow each person to define themselves. > http://wwwreligioustolerance.org/chr_prac2.htm > I don't think race and gender define people to any great extent. But > religion really does, because it's about a person's chosen beliefs, rather > than accidental exterior criteria which mean next to nothing. > -- Kirby > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 12:23:01 -0800 Reply-To: kalamu@aol.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ishaq Organization: Selah7 http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html Subject: INFO: compton, california--dr. francis cress welsing lecture MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit INFO: compton, california--dr. francis cress welsing lecture =============================================== Dr. Frances Cress Welsing will speak in Southern California on Friday, February 6, 2004. The lecture will be held at: > > Compton College Gym > 1111 East Artesia Blvd > Compton, CA > 7:00 P.M. Admission $12 > > Dr. Francis Cress Welsing is the author of the book "The Isis Papers". She is a practicing psychiatrist who offers compelling theories about the function of white supremacy as if affects the African American community and the white society that perpetuates it. -- - ___ Stay Strong "Peace sells but who's buying?" Megadeth "This mathematical rhythmatical mechanism enhances my wisdom of Islam, keeps me calm from doing you harm, when I attack, it's Vietnam" --HellRazah "It's not too good to stay in a white man's country too long" Mutabartuka http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html http://awol.objector.org/artistprofiles/welfarepoets.html http://ilovepoetry.com/search.asp?keywords=braithwaite&orderBy=date http://www.dpgrecordz.com/fredwreck/ http://www.lowliferecords.co.uk/ http://loudandoffensive.com/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/THCO2 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 15:26:39 -0500 Reply-To: ron.silliman@gte.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Subject: NY Times Book Review to get a make-over MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Can the NY Times Book Review get any worse? They're gonna try, Ron ---------------------------- From Poynter.org The Plot Thickens at The New York Times Book Review With a new Sunday book editor on the horizon, The New York Times takes a hard look at its literary coverage paper-wide. By Margo Hammond and Ellen Heltzel Publishing insiders have watched nervously since Steven Erlanger became cultural editor at The New York Times and began altering the focus of the daily "Books of the Times." Well, they ain't seen nothin' yet. When we sat down with executive editor Bill Keller last week, he promised "dramatic changes" in the Sunday section now that head honcho Chip McGrath is stepping aside. He also indicated that the top brass is rethinking book coverage top to bottom. Well, if you write non-fiction, review non-fiction, or prefer to read non-fiction, break out the champagne. "The most compelling ideas tend to be in the non-fiction world," Keller says. "Because we are a newspaper, we should be more skewed toward non-fiction." What's more, if you're perplexed or simply bored with what passes for smart fiction these days, the Times feels your pain. More attention will be paid to the potboilers, we're told. After all, says Keller, somebody's got to tell you what book to choose at the airport. And who will carry out this mandate? Regarding McGrath's replacement, Keller won't name names yet. But he did say that they're down to three or four finalists, none of them inside staffers. An announcement is just weeks away. Bill Keller A big step in this process - and the one that may have sent the higher-ups into brainstorming mode - involved inviting about a dozen of the most promising candidates to write "diagnostic essays" on how the Sunday section ought to change. The consensus: Reviews need to be more varied in length, and more contentious. But that's just tinkering around the edges. The bigger news concerns what will be covered. Author interviews, a column on the publishing industry, a decrease in fiction reviews and more about mass market books - this appears to be the recipe for making the NYTBR less formulaic and more vital. Although Keller's ascendancy has brought plenty of reshuffling at the Times, in the case of the Sunday book review, perceptions in and outside the paper seem to have meshed. Critics have dunned the section for dullness. Even while praising McGrath's exceptional editing skills, Keller made clear that he has different priorities. "I love that Chip championed first novels," he says, then offers the rhetorical question: But why take up 800 words when a paragraph will do? Based on our interviews with Keller, McGrath, and Erlanger, top management thinks contemporary fiction has received more column inches than it deserves. Bill Keller: "Of course, some fiction needs to be done ... We'll do the new Updike, the new Roth, the new Jonathan Franzen or Zadie Smith. But there are not a lot of them, it seems to me." "Of course, some fiction needs to be done," Keller says. "We'll do the new Updike, the new Roth, the new Jonathan Franzen or Zadie Smith. But there are not a lot of them, it seems to me." He gets no argument from Erlanger. "To be honest, there's so much s---," the new leader of the daily arts section observes. "Most of the things we praise aren't very good." Traditionally, chief critic Michiko Kakutani has handled most of the literary fiction for daily. Her star remains untarnished; Keller refers to her appreciatively as "queen of the hill." Former movie critic Janet Maslin has shown a predilection for commercial fiction, a taste the Times endorses. As with most newspapers, management is obsessed with attracting younger readers and sees mass market titles as one entry point - as long as they're done, Keller says, in a "witty" way appropriate to the Times' sophisticated reader. Regarding daily coverage, under Erlanger the book review team has been reduced from three to two (book reviewer Richard Bernstein has been dispatched to Berlin, and his slot was given to a reporter). That leaves freelancers to handle most non-fiction. But instead of reducing coverage, Erlanger claims to be increasing it, using former Times staffer Robert Berkvist to vet titles. Erlanger reinstated the weekly review in his Saturday section Arts & Ideas, with emphasis on the more topical releases from university presses. "We need to do more policy and history," he says. "We need to be more urgent and journalistic." For him, this means assigning books with hopes of eliciting some sparks. Example: He asked Max Boot, a conservative on the Council of Foreign Relations, to review "Freedom on Fire: Human Rights Wars and America's Response," by Clinton Administration veteran John Shattuck. "I like to mix it up," Erlanger says. "If I could start another Mailer/Vidal fight, I'd gladly do it." Some of the non-fiction books he reviews for "urgency" are poorly written, he admits, but for him this is less important than the book's contents. He and Keller, both prize-winning former foreign correspondents, see books as a launching pad for discussion. "Book reviews are partly a consumer service," Keller says, but they also "should be written for people who don't have any intention of buying the book." So there's the recipe: Emphasize non-fiction books. Demote literary fiction. Promote (judiciously) commercial novels. Cover the book industry more and individual titles less (Keller says he intends to fill the long-empty book publishing industry slot in business, which -- as with other media beats -- requires "a thick skin to stand up to the spin and the whining.") Given its pivotal role in the marketing of books, the Times is likely to accelerate trends already apparent in book publishing. The potential implications are huge, suggesting bigger advances for blockbusters and celebrities, including those who wish to exploit their "public service" in the nation's capital, and scaled-down high-brow fiction lists, based on the assumption that if such books can't get ink in the toney Times, they won't have a prayer in USA Today or Entertainment Weekly. Whether or not the Times' analysis of the market and its readers is correct, it's based on logical reasoning. In the views expressed by its decision-makers, too few works of fiction rise to the level of a "novel of ideas" - that is, stories that express the concerns and issues of the day as Dickens did. And given these odds, the Times would rather devote resources to fostering debate than discovering and nurturing imaginative writing. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 13:24:14 -0800 Reply-To: Ishaq1823@telus.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ishaq Organization: Selah7 http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html Subject: info hurricane angel's full cd available MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit PEaCE and forward if you can, I hope you can give this new elbow a listen and place in your skullz and on your sites. It is the Hurricane Angel Full length cd entitled "luckily, i was half cat" available by NYC poet and musician Hurricane Angel (aka Jonathan Cox) which has trip hop beats and guest vocalist like Lord Patch (aka Lawrence Ytzhak Braithwaite) and Hardcore punk addict Mike Rubino to name a few. ...from New York to New Palestine "All Life laments memories Given the boot to X-Ray I’m yuh lost Dj Turn yuh sword around You crew suffers Hittin fixes w/ Agents/800 MC’s Rule inertia in daddy’s army takin an axe to the devilment/ destroyin ignorance wiph a question" "luckily, i was half cat" tracks: Into the olivet discourse breakout whiskers gurami right as rain analog autumn Unner Stated(downpressin) saving sebastian (odds & ends) 83 your dead future veloce sprint (downpressin intrumental) Full length cd available by contacting: jonathan cox international harvester music 2004 Download and hear "Unner Stated" from the cd "Hurricane Angel" (J Cox) w/ Lord Patch (aka Lawrence Y Braithwaite): http://www.unlimitedftp.ca/myftp/displayShare.jsp?%00%0A%00%06%0B%09%06%05%0A%0B%06%02%04%07 Hurricane Angel's Unner Stated (w/ Lord Patch aka Lawrence Ytzhak Braithwaite) and much more on "Vocalized Ink Radio" Also give a listen to the top spokenword site and radio: http://www.live365.com/stations/vocalizedink?play -- - ___ Stay Strong "Peace sells but who's buying?" Megadeth "This mathematical rhythmatical mechanism enhances my wisdom of Islam, keeps me calm from doing you harm, when I attack, it's Vietnam" --HellRazah "It's not too good to stay in a white man's country too long" Mutabartuka http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html http://awol.objector.org/artistprofiles/welfarepoets.html http://ilovepoetry.com/search.asp?keywords=braithwaite&orderBy=date http://www.dpgrecordz.com/fredwreck/ http://www.lowliferecords.co.uk/ http://loudandoffensive.com/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/THCO2 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 16:13:00 -0500 Reply-To: claytonacouch@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Clayton A. Couch" Subject: new issues of word for/word and sidereality MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you haven't seen the new issues of _Word For/Word_ (http://www.wordforword.info/) and _sidereality_ (http://www.sidereality.com/) yet, you've been missing out. At _Word For/Word_, Jonathan Minton is displaying some outstanding new work by William Allegrezza, John M. Bennett, W. B. Keckler, Amy King, Daniel Nester, etc., and at _sidereality_, we have new poems by Simon Perchik, Chris Murray, Anyssa Kim, Mark Peters, Sheila Murphy, John Most, Petra Backonja, Millie Niss, etc. Please do take the time to visit both sites. Best wishes, Clayton A. Couch ================================================= Clayton A. Couch Managing Editor, _sidereality_ managingeditor@sidereality.com http://www.sidereality.com ================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 16:57:52 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: NY Times Book Review to get a make-over MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Can the NY Times Book Review get any worse? They're gonna try, > > Ron > > ---------------------------- > > From Poynter.org > > > The Plot Thickens at The New York Times Book Review > With a new Sunday book editor on the horizon, The New York Times takes a > hard look at its literary coverage paper-wide. > > > By Margo Hammond and Ellen Heltzel > > Publishing insiders have watched nervously since Steven Erlanger became > cultural editor at The New York Times and began altering the focus of > the daily "Books of the Times." Well, they ain't seen nothin' yet. When > we sat down with executive editor Bill Keller last week, he promised > "dramatic changes" in the Sunday section now that head honcho Chip > McGrath is stepping aside. He also indicated that the top brass is > rethinking book coverage top to bottom. > > Well, if you write non-fiction, review non-fiction, or prefer to read > non-fiction, break out the champagne. "The most compelling ideas tend to > be in the non-fiction world," Keller says. "Because we are a newspaper, > we should be more skewed toward non-fiction." > > What's more, if you're perplexed or simply bored with what passes for > smart fiction these days, the Times feels your pain. More attention will > be paid to the potboilers, we're told. After all, says Keller, > somebody's got to tell you what book to choose at the airport. > > And who will carry out this mandate? Regarding McGrath's replacement, > Keller won't name names yet. But he did say that they're down to three > or four finalists, none of them inside staffers. An announcement is just > weeks away. > > > Bill Keller > A big step in this process - and the one that may have sent the > higher-ups into brainstorming mode - involved inviting about a dozen of > the most promising candidates to write "diagnostic essays" on how the > Sunday section ought to change. The consensus: Reviews need to be more > varied in length, and more contentious. But that's just tinkering around > the edges. The bigger news concerns what will be covered. Author > interviews, a column on the publishing industry, a decrease in fiction > reviews and more about mass market books - this appears to be the recipe > for making the NYTBR less formulaic and more vital. > > Although Keller's ascendancy has brought plenty of reshuffling at the > Times, in the case of the Sunday book review, perceptions in and outside > the paper seem to have meshed. Critics have dunned the section for > dullness. Even while praising McGrath's exceptional editing skills, > Keller made clear that he has different priorities. > > "I love that Chip championed first novels," he says, then offers the > rhetorical question: But why take up 800 words when a paragraph will do? > Based on our interviews with Keller, McGrath, and Erlanger, top > management thinks contemporary fiction has received more column inches > than it deserves. > > Bill Keller: "Of course, some fiction needs to be done ... We'll do the > new Updike, the new Roth, the new Jonathan Franzen or Zadie Smith. But > there are not a lot of them, it seems to me." > > "Of course, some fiction needs to be done," Keller says. "We'll do the > new Updike, the new Roth, the new Jonathan Franzen or Zadie Smith. But > there are not a lot of them, it seems to me." He gets no argument from > Erlanger. "To be honest, there's so much s---," the new leader of the > daily arts section observes. "Most of the things we praise aren't very > good." > > Traditionally, chief critic Michiko Kakutani has handled most of the > literary fiction for daily. Her star remains untarnished; Keller refers > to her appreciatively as "queen of the hill." Former movie critic Janet > Maslin has shown a predilection for commercial fiction, a taste the > Times endorses. As with most newspapers, management is obsessed with > attracting younger readers and sees mass market titles as one entry > point - as long as they're done, Keller says, in a "witty" way > appropriate to the Times' sophisticated reader. > > Regarding daily coverage, under Erlanger the book review team has been > reduced from three to two (book reviewer Richard Bernstein has been > dispatched to Berlin, and his slot was given to a reporter). That leaves > freelancers to handle most non-fiction. But instead of reducing > coverage, Erlanger claims to be increasing it, using former Times > staffer Robert Berkvist to vet titles. Erlanger reinstated the weekly > review in his Saturday section Arts & Ideas, with emphasis on the more > topical releases from university presses. "We need to do more policy and > history," he says. "We need to be more urgent and journalistic." > > For him, this means assigning books with hopes of eliciting some sparks. > Example: He asked Max Boot, a conservative on the Council of Foreign > Relations, to review "Freedom on Fire: Human Rights Wars and America's > Response," by Clinton Administration veteran John Shattuck. "I like to > mix it up," Erlanger says. "If I could start another Mailer/Vidal fight, > I'd gladly do it." > > Some of the non-fiction books he reviews for "urgency" are poorly > written, he admits, but for him this is less important than the book's > contents. He and Keller, both prize-winning former foreign > correspondents, see books as a launching pad for discussion. "Book > reviews are partly a consumer service," Keller says, but they also > "should be written for people who don't have any intention of buying the > book." > > So there's the recipe: Emphasize non-fiction books. Demote literary > fiction. Promote (judiciously) commercial novels. Cover the book > industry more and individual titles less (Keller says he intends to fill > the long-empty book publishing industry slot in business, which -- as > with other media beats -- requires "a thick skin to stand up to the spin > and the whining.") > > Given its pivotal role in the marketing of books, the Times is likely to > accelerate trends already apparent in book publishing. The potential > implications are huge, suggesting bigger advances for blockbusters and > celebrities, including those who wish to exploit their "public service" > in the nation's capital, and scaled-down high-brow fiction lists, based > on the assumption that if such books can't get ink in the toney Times, > they won't have a prayer in USA Today or Entertainment Weekly. > > Whether or not the Times' analysis of the market and its readers is > correct, it's based on logical reasoning. In the views expressed by its > decision-makers, too few works of fiction rise to the level of a "novel > of ideas" - that is, stories that express the concerns and issues of the > day as Dickens did. And given these odds, the Times would rather devote > resources to fostering debate than discovering and nurturing imaginative > writing. > > I have refused to even look at the Sunday book section of The Times for years on the principle that an institution which has treated poetry as if it does not exist has very little to say to me on literary matters. As for the daily book reviews, since the daily crossword puzzle (the first thing I do in the newspaper) is often under the book review, I glance at the review if its subject amuses me. I think what Ron is saying has been inherent in the New York Times for years. As an object of literary ferment The Times has been dead for a long time; this action will only remove a corpse from under one's feet. (Ron, do you really read The Times for literary enlightenment?) On the other hand, in my opinion, the investigative/political side of The Times has been strengthened the last few years. For instance, have you read the amazingly detailed series of articles on the dangerous work places in The United States, which had front page coverage extending to the inside pages for days about a year ago? This planned "change" of policy is an acknowledgement of what kind of a place this newspaper has been. In that respect, it basically removes some pretensions. Murat ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 14:14:34 -0800 Reply-To: k heldmann Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: k heldmann Subject: Re: the art of the book Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.minsky.com/sharpaper.htm http://www.granarybooks.com/books/ely/ely1.html http://www.centerforbookarts.org/exhibits/USA/ely.html kristen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 14:24:42 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Charles Thomas Subject: Tijuana after new year poem suffering from imagist hangover MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Olda spent cardboard rocket a crushed plastic bottle a spattering of confetti the street in Tijuana empty on the day after new year Tijuana Gringo www.geocities.com/tijuanagringo --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 14:58:05 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: Pedro Pietri In-Reply-To: <439FED80-50BE-11D8-82F0-003065BE1640@albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for providing this pointer, Pierre. It's a lovely, simultaneously saddening article. I remember when Pedro Pietri first came to San Francisco in about 1971 and read the yet unpublished Obituary at a storefront on Valencia Street. It took everybody's socks off. I immediately invited him -as the then Coordinator of California's Poetry-in-the-Schools program - t= o read at Opportunity High School - an alternative place for "misfits". I wil= l never forget him facing about 10 of us while he read the Obituary - while through a window to his back on to the school corridor we watched a Black and Latino student slowly walk a beautiful Asian student back and forth, he= r eyes closed; as gently as possible, they were working to get her through an overdose. As a visual and voice configuration, it was one migrant nation talking to several, the parallels there, the magnetic survival insistence i= n the voice. It was suddenly as I, the teacher and the students had been gifted with the actual center of a major "geist" for which the poem provide= d an extraordinary sense of measure. It was also the center of the birth of poets at what were then still at the margins of color and origin and acceptable gender. I pray Pedro does well with healing in Mexico. His prints, indeed, are large. Stephen Vincent=20 on 1/27/04 3:45 AM, Pierre Joris at joris@ALBANY.EDU wrote: > Today's New York Times has a moving article on the poet Pedro Pietri, > one of the stalwarts of the Nuyorican Poets Caf=E9: >=20 > http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/27/nyregion/27wide.html?8hpib >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ >=20 > The poet: always in partibus infidelium -- Paul Celan > ___________________________________________________________ > Pierre Joris > 6 Madison Place =20 > Albany NY 12202 =20 > h: 518 426 0433 =20 > c: 518 225 7123 =20 > o: 518 442 40 85=20 > email: joris@albany.edu > http://www.albany.edu/~joris/ > ____________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 15:29:45 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron McCollough Subject: New Issue of Word For/Word MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Word For/Word #5 is online at http://www.wordforword.info/ with new poems by William Allegrezza, Kathryn T. S. Bass, Keith Baughman, John M. Bennett, Mike Chasar, Chad Chmielowicz, Clayton A. Couch, Mark DuCharme, Cathy Eisenhower, Raymond Farr, Michael Farrell, and many others, plus Tom Hibbard's reviews of How2 and Jacket, and Mike Chasar's essay on Dana Gioia and the Politics of American Poetry. all best, Jonathan Minton +++++++++++++++ "Working Backwards," by Steven J. Stewart To begin with the dog and work backward: "Dog" refers to the problematics of unmasking realism. This unmasking has been called "walking the dog," an activity that has evolved to the point that its broadest solution is death. The dog's triumph is an emotional montage, the triumph of the outburst. Modern innovations in metaphysics are referred to as the "appropriate care and feeding of the dog." Pure continuity only exists in the absence of the dog, the absence of all human terms. This goes beyond the mechanical background hypotheses. The fluctuating strangeness of intention establishes the dog's radical meaning, which causes an explosion of bona fide revolution, working against a vital, maturing objectivity. The dog is more a connection than an adornment--it shifts ramification away from ambiguity. Art is the appropriate form of ideology to adopt in this circumstance, as long as the dog is not depicted. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 15:53:26 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Corbett Subject: Re: NY Times Book Review to get a make-over In-Reply-To: <15a.2c4f8f40.2d4838e0@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII how do poets get in the door and say, pay attention? should hunger strikes be threatened? something more aggressive? serioulsy, just varying length would at least be a start. and they are feeling competition from the Believer and the new Book Forum. robert -- Robert Corbett, Ph.C. "Given the distance of communication, Coordinator of New Programs I hope the words aren't idling on the B40D Gerberding map of my fingertips, but igniting the Phone: (206) 616-0657 wild acres within the probabilities of Fax: (206) 685-3218 spelling" - Rosmarie Waldrop UW Box: 351237 On Tue, 27 Jan 2004, Murat Nemet-Nejat wrote: > > Can the NY Times Book Review get any worse? They're gonna try, > > > > Ron > > > > ---------------------------- > > > > From Poynter.org > > > > > > The Plot Thickens at The New York Times Book Review > > With a new Sunday book editor on the horizon, The New York Times takes a > > hard look at its literary coverage paper-wide. > > > > > > By Margo Hammond and Ellen Heltzel > > > > Publishing insiders have watched nervously since Steven Erlanger became > > cultural editor at The New York Times and began altering the focus of > > the daily "Books of the Times." Well, they ain't seen nothin' yet. When > > we sat down with executive editor Bill Keller last week, he promised > > "dramatic changes" in the Sunday section now that head honcho Chip > > McGrath is stepping aside. He also indicated that the top brass is > > rethinking book coverage top to bottom. > > > > Well, if you write non-fiction, review non-fiction, or prefer to read > > non-fiction, break out the champagne. "The most compelling ideas tend to > > be in the non-fiction world," Keller says. "Because we are a newspaper, > > we should be more skewed toward non-fiction." > > > > What's more, if you're perplexed or simply bored with what passes for > > smart fiction these days, the Times feels your pain. More attention will > > be paid to the potboilers, we're told. After all, says Keller, > > somebody's got to tell you what book to choose at the airport. > > > > And who will carry out this mandate? Regarding McGrath's replacement, > > Keller won't name names yet. But he did say that they're down to three > > or four finalists, none of them inside staffers. An announcement is just > > weeks away. > > > > > > Bill Keller > > A big step in this process - and the one that may have sent the > > higher-ups into brainstorming mode - involved inviting about a dozen of > > the most promising candidates to write "diagnostic essays" on how the > > Sunday section ought to change. The consensus: Reviews need to be more > > varied in length, and more contentious. But that's just tinkering around > > the edges. The bigger news concerns what will be covered. Author > > interviews, a column on the publishing industry, a decrease in fiction > > reviews and more about mass market books - this appears to be the recipe > > for making the NYTBR less formulaic and more vital. > > > > Although Keller's ascendancy has brought plenty of reshuffling at the > > Times, in the case of the Sunday book review, perceptions in and outside > > the paper seem to have meshed. Critics have dunned the section for > > dullness. Even while praising McGrath's exceptional editing skills, > > Keller made clear that he has different priorities. > > > > "I love that Chip championed first novels," he says, then offers the > > rhetorical question: But why take up 800 words when a paragraph will do? > > Based on our interviews with Keller, McGrath, and Erlanger, top > > management thinks contemporary fiction has received more column inches > > than it deserves. > > > > Bill Keller: "Of course, some fiction needs to be done ... We'll do the > > new Updike, the new Roth, the new Jonathan Franzen or Zadie Smith. But > > there are not a lot of them, it seems to me." > > > > "Of course, some fiction needs to be done," Keller says. "We'll do the > > new Updike, the new Roth, the new Jonathan Franzen or Zadie Smith. But > > there are not a lot of them, it seems to me." He gets no argument from > > Erlanger. "To be honest, there's so much s---," the new leader of the > > daily arts section observes. "Most of the things we praise aren't very > > good." > > > > Traditionally, chief critic Michiko Kakutani has handled most of the > > literary fiction for daily. Her star remains untarnished; Keller refers > > to her appreciatively as "queen of the hill." Former movie critic Janet > > Maslin has shown a predilection for commercial fiction, a taste the > > Times endorses. As with most newspapers, management is obsessed with > > attracting younger readers and sees mass market titles as one entry > > point - as long as they're done, Keller says, in a "witty" way > > appropriate to the Times' sophisticated reader. > > > > Regarding daily coverage, under Erlanger the book review team has been > > reduced from three to two (book reviewer Richard Bernstein has been > > dispatched to Berlin, and his slot was given to a reporter). That leaves > > freelancers to handle most non-fiction. But instead of reducing > > coverage, Erlanger claims to be increasing it, using former Times > > staffer Robert Berkvist to vet titles. Erlanger reinstated the weekly > > review in his Saturday section Arts & Ideas, with emphasis on the more > > topical releases from university presses. "We need to do more policy and > > history," he says. "We need to be more urgent and journalistic." > > > > For him, this means assigning books with hopes of eliciting some sparks. > > Example: He asked Max Boot, a conservative on the Council of Foreign > > Relations, to review "Freedom on Fire: Human Rights Wars and America's > > Response," by Clinton Administration veteran John Shattuck. "I like to > > mix it up," Erlanger says. "If I could start another Mailer/Vidal fight, > > I'd gladly do it." > > > > Some of the non-fiction books he reviews for "urgency" are poorly > > written, he admits, but for him this is less important than the book's > > contents. He and Keller, both prize-winning former foreign > > correspondents, see books as a launching pad for discussion. "Book > > reviews are partly a consumer service," Keller says, but they also > > "should be written for people who don't have any intention of buying the > > book." > > > > So there's the recipe: Emphasize non-fiction books. Demote literary > > fiction. Promote (judiciously) commercial novels. Cover the book > > industry more and individual titles less (Keller says he intends to fill > > the long-empty book publishing industry slot in business, which -- as > > with other media beats -- requires "a thick skin to stand up to the spin > > and the whining.") > > > > Given its pivotal role in the marketing of books, the Times is likely to > > accelerate trends already apparent in book publishing. The potential > > implications are huge, suggesting bigger advances for blockbusters and > > celebrities, including those who wish to exploit their "public service" > > in the nation's capital, and scaled-down high-brow fiction lists, based > > on the assumption that if such books can't get ink in the toney Times, > > they won't have a prayer in USA Today or Entertainment Weekly. > > > > Whether or not the Times' analysis of the market and its readers is > > correct, it's based on logical reasoning. In the views expressed by its > > decision-makers, too few works of fiction rise to the level of a "novel > > of ideas" - that is, stories that express the concerns and issues of the > > day as Dickens did. And given these odds, the Times would rather devote > > resources to fostering debate than discovering and nurturing imaginative > > writing. > > > > > > I have refused to even look at the Sunday book section of The Times for years > on the principle that an institution which has treated poetry as if it does > not exist has very little to say to me on literary matters. > > As for the daily book reviews, since the daily crossword puzzle (the first > thing I do in the newspaper) is often under the book review, I glance at the > review if its subject amuses me. I think what Ron is saying has been inherent in > the New York Times for years. As an object of literary ferment The Times has > been dead for a long time; this action will only remove a corpse from under > one's feet. (Ron, do you really read The Times for literary enlightenment?) > > On the other hand, in my opinion, the investigative/political side of The > Times has been strengthened the last few years. For instance, have you read the > amazingly detailed series of articles on the dangerous work places in The > United States, which had front page coverage extending to the inside pages for days > about a year ago? This planned "change" of policy is an acknowledgement of > what kind of a place this newspaper has been. In that respect, it basically > removes some pretensions. > > Murat > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 01:52:39 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: noemata Subject: Re: the art of the book In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040127090059.0234a178@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" 27/01/2004 18:22:33, Summi Kaipa wrote: >a call out for help on the poetics list: > >i only know that i want to define it as a >place where the book transcends its two dimensionality--both literally and >figuratively. i posted a suggestion for a book publishing scheme a few days ago which might be considered book art at least in some senses - http://amsterdam.nettime.org/Lists-Archives/nettime-l-0401/msg00085.html or http://noemata.net/books/proposition.txt _ bjorn ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 17:00:50 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Marsh Subject: My Life MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone know which works by Lyn Hejinian have been translated into Spanish? Thanks, Bill ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 18:24:53 -0800 Reply-To: pdunagan@lycos.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: patrick dunagan Organization: Lycos Mail (http://www.mail.lycos.com:80) Subject: Re: Lewis Macadams and His 20-Year Art Project Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, Lewis MacAdams work with the river is fantastic. He's also been writing a book length poem titled THE RIVER (?) parts 1 and 2 of which were put out by Blue Press a few years back, & I'm pretty sure more of which was recently published somewhere. Any one have more info on this? Patrick Dunagan -- --------- Original Message --------- DATE: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 09:23:49 From: Hilton Obenzinger To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Cc: >In my latest copy of The New Yorker there's an article about Lewis Macadams >and his 20 year campaign to restore the moribund LA River to something >vaguely approximating a pure product of America. I haven't seen him in >many years, but I was delighted to read of his persistence and his attitude >of social action as an art form and spiritual practice. Even some of his >poetry was quoted. And the fact that his long quixotic campaign has begun >to show results delighted me even more. I don't think anyone else noted >this here, and I thought it was worth bringing to this list's attention. > >Hilton Obenzinger > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Hilton Obenzinger, PhD. >Associate Director for Honors Writing, Undergraduate Research Programs >Lecturer, Department of English >Stanford University >415 Sweet Hall >650.723.0330 >650.724.5400 Fax >obenzinger@stanford.edu > ____________________________________________________________ Get advanced SPAM filtering on Webmail or POP Mail ... Get Lycos Mail! http://login.mail.lycos.com/r/referral?aid=27005 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 19:33:26 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: Otis LA Readings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Otis College of Art & Design=92s Graduate Writing Program =20 SPRING 2004 VISITING WRITERS February 18 =96 Mohammed Dib=92s L.A. Trip -- at the Mountain, 473 Gin = Ling Way, Central Chinatown Plaza, Los Angeles (between Broadway & Hill), 7p.m.=20 A celebration of the great Alegerian novelist and poet=92s just = published =93novel in verse,=94 L.A. Trip. Born in Tlemcen, Algeria in 1920, Dib = moved to Paris in 1959, upon completion of his great fiction trilogy L=92incidie. The author of some 30 novels, volumes of poetry, short stories and books for children, in 1994 he received the Francophone Grand Prix, the highest literary prize awarded by the Acad=E9mie Fran=E7aise. Championed earlier in his career by writers such as Andre Maulraux, Albert Camus and Louis Aragon, Dib became a national treasure for the entire French speaking world. He died in May 2003. This event is co-sponsored by the Consul-General of France in Los Angeles. http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/news/obituary/0,12723,953121,00.html February 25 =96 Antonio Riccardi =96 at the Mountain, Chinatown L.A., 7 = p.m. Born in Parma in 1962, Riccardi lives and works in Milan in the publishing business, where he is currently editor-in-chief at Mondadori. His books of poetry include Il profitto domestico (1996); Un amore di citt=E0 (1999 & 2001); and the forthcoming Gli impianti del dovere e = della guerra. He is also a contributing editor to the cultural journals Nuovi Argomenti and Letture. He is the editor of a volume of essays Per la Poesia tra Novecento e nuovo Millennio, as well as being responsible for editions of two Giordano Bruno classics, Candelaio and Cena delle Ceneri. Riccardi has lectured throughout Italy, the U.S., France and Denmark. http://www.alice.it/news/primo/riccardi_antonio.htm March 7 =96 Frederic Tuten =96 at the Mountain, Chinatown, L.A., 7 p.m. Author of The Adventures of Mao on the Long March, published in 1971 to rave reviews and, although long out of print, has become a classic of experimental fiction. Other novels include Tallien: A Brief Romance, Tintin in the New World and Van Gogh's Bad Caf=E9 and the most recent = The Green Hour. For 15 years, Tuten directed the Graduate Program in Literature and Creative Writing at City College of New York, where he continues to give seminars. He has also written extensively on contemporary art for Artforum, Vogue and The New York Times, and has published several books on contemporary artists, including studies of Roy Lichtenstein and Eric Fischl. http://www.newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/arts/books/n_7802/ March 24 =96 James Sallis =96 at the Mountain, Chinatown, L.A., 7 p.m. Author of numerous novels, books of poetry, short stories, studies of jazz and blues, as well as an award-winning biography of Chester Himes. His Lew Griffin series of six rather unconventional crime novels set in New Orleans, published between 1992-2001, has won him praise here and abroad. His latest novel, Cypress Grove, also set in the South, appeared in 2003. He continues columns for The Magazine of Fantasy & Science Fiction, literary website Web Del Sol, and the Boston Globe. A new novel, Stones in My Passway, and a collection of new stories, A City Equal to My Desire, are forthcoming. Sallis lives in Phoenix and is on the graduate writing faculty of Otis College of Art & Design. http://www.jamessallis.com/ April 7 =96 Sin puertas visibles: an Anthology of Contemporary Poetry by Mexican Women, edited & translated by Jen Hofer =96 at Otis College of Art & Design (Galef 209), 7:30 p.m. A bilingual anthology that features emerging women poets whose work provides a taste of the adventurous new spirit infusing Mexican literature: Silvia Eugenia Castillero, Dolores Dorantes, Carla Faesler, Cristina Rivera-Garza, Dana Gelinas, Ana Bel=E9n Lopez, M=F3nica Nepote, Mar=EDa Rivera, Ofelia P=E9rez Sep=FAlveda, Laura Sol=F3rzano, = Ang=E9lica Tornero. All eleven poets represented have had at least one book published in Mexico, yet none of their work has been translated into English until the appearance of this anthology. Jen Hofer, widely published poet and translator living in Los Angeles, will host the discussion with several of the authors from Sin puertas visibles. www.pitt.edu/~press April 11 =96 Celebrating the New Review of Literature=92s first year of publishing, with special guest Lawrence Weschler =96 at the Mountain, Chinatown, L.A., 6 p.m.=20 Join us Easter Sunday evening for a publication party celebrating the New Review of Literature=92s inaugural year of exploration and provocation, with a talk by award-winning writer and critic, Lawrence Weschler. For over twenty years, from 1981-2002, until his recent retirement, Weschler was a staff writer at The New Yorker, where his work shuttled between political tragedies and cultural comedies. His books of political reportage include The Passion of Poland (1984); A Miracle, A Universe: Settling Accounts with Torturers (1990); Calamities of Exile: Three Nonfiction Novellas (1998) and the forthcoming Vermeer in Bosnia. His =93Passions and Wonders=94 series currently comprises = Seeing is Forgetting the Name of the Thing One Sees: A Life of Contemporary Artist Robert Irwin (1982); David Hockney=92s Cameraworks (1984); Mr. Wilson=92s Cabinet of Wonder (1995); A Wanderer in the Perfect City: Selected Passion Pieces (1998) and Boggs: A Comedy of Values (1999) and most recently Robert Irwin: Getty Garden. (2002). He has taught, variously, at Princeton, Columbia, UCSC, Bard, Vassar, and Sarah Lawrence. Weschler is currently director of the New York Institute for the Humanities at NYU, where he has been a fellow since 1991. http://www.nyu.edu/nyutoday/archives/14/10/weschler.nyu May 5 =96 Celebrating Robert Crosson=92s The Day Sam Goldwyn Stepped Off = the Train =96 at the Mountain, Chinatown, L.A., 7 p.m. A publication party for the posthumous volume of selected poems by Robert Crosson, one of Los Angeles=92 most important and best kept secrets. Crosson, an actor, housepainter and carpenter, who died in 2001, was one of the most original and provocative poets of the eighties and nineties, and this book marks the first major selection and reevaluation of his work. Faculty from Otis College=92s Graduate Writing program will read his work. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 21:58:11 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: the art of the book In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=EUC-KR; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v543) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > Begin forwarded message: > >> From: charles alexander >> Date: Tue Jan 27, 2004 12:21:59 PM US/Central >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Subject: Re: the art of the book >> Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >> >> Dear Summi >> >> This is, in many ways, contested territory. Creators have come to create book arts in many ways, I'm reading=20 Charles' characterizing book arts from the view of book makers who are=20= all a product of very specific lineage of fine printmakers, pressman &=20= binders. One could also come to BOOK ARTS via other media. Alison=20 Knowles has done a lot of work with books as larger than life=20 structures, Bruce Licher's music group Savage Republic letterpress=20 printed record packages. The Zaum poets in 1910 Russia published their=20= multi color books on butcher paper using gelatine lithography (made=20 from horse hooves, no doubt), my friend Robert The has made a partial=20 income for years because he has become an absolute master at using a=20 scroll saw to turn thick black books such as the bible into book guns. =20= He even shrink wraps them so they stay fresh. & what of Duchamp's=20 Green Box sitting in the Philadelphia Museum of Art. Fluxus produced a=20= lot of multiples, especially something like the Anthologies. or Luigi=20= Serafini's Codex Seraphinianus =A1=C4 My favorites that I've created are HYPOK CHANGS TREES, a hypergraphic=20 novel 1 inch by 2 inches ,,, available as an earring ;;; & an ongoing=20 bookwork I made many years ago called TO BE FILLED, all the pages of an=20= encyclopedia glued together & a compartment hollowed out of the book. =20= The instructions on the cover are to "read" the contents inside & then=20= put something in the book. My copy of the book (I think I've made=20 about 5 of them) has filled many times & I have a coffee can filled=20 with 20 years of traces of peoples interactions with it). Also I would be inclined to look toward the net for innovative=20 approaches to bookart ----- to integrate the approaches of digital bookmakers ---------------& think of BOOK ART as an inclusive term which is as=20 much about community, networking & culture making as it is making=20 books. & you will often find me dividing book arts into 2 categories. The=20 ones you can handle & touch & the ones that are precious & often under=20= glass. >> >> I wrote, with a group of others, the introductory essay to >> Breaking the Bindings: American Book Art Now, published by the=20 >> Elvehjem >> Museum of Art at the University of Wisconsin in 1983. That was one of=20= >> the >> first, if not the very first, museum-scale exhibitions of American=20 >> artist's >> books and book arts, and if you can find that catalogue, it's still a=20= >> good >> resource. >> I think I saw this show, but I have always assumed that museums=20 showing book arts goes back a lot further. mIEKAL ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 23:59:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: i am waiting for a new way of thinking MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII i am waiting for a new way of thinking . . . . . . . . . . - 0 4 0 1 2 0 - 1 2 2 3 1 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . - . . . - . . . . - . . . - . . - . . . - . . . . . . . . . . . * . * . * . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . * . * . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . _ . . . . * . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . grep "\." yy > zz sed 's/^........./ /g' zz > yy sed 's/^.........//g' yy > zz directory jumping looking for something never finding it i own it but it is gone forever no one else has my memories i am waiting for a new way of thinking thinking will come to me in what form in the grey form of thought in the thought of my world sometime when i find it i will tell it i will keep it to myself you will see part you will never be whole i will be alone i will keep it i will be selfish i will bring peace to you from a violent world it will be my memory __ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 23:59:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: lastempire.mov MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII lastempire.mov the revolution will not be televised the revolution is online forever packet after packet carries the revolution nothing happens in the revolution you can feel the excitement you can almost touch it http://www.asondheim.org/lastempire.mov __ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 22:45:30 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Trane DeVore Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" I second the recommendation to contact the San Francisco Center for the Book -- if nothing else they'd be able to get you in touch with a variety of letter presses, and letter press devotees, around the Bay Area. I would also recommend not discounting the world of zines yet -- there's certainly a subset of the zine set that produces work that goes far beyond the clip and copy aesthetic. If you have a budget for it I would recommend going to the Alternative Press Expo when it comes to San Francisco and checking it out. There's almost always a ton of hand-silkscreened work, really interesting collage, scrapbook type art collections, colored photocopy polaroid collections, and even some writing. The APE set tends to be really interested in the community of small production and there's a kind of free imagination at work because of this. If you've never been to APE, don't be put off by the fact that it's mostly comics -- you'll find amazing work by people like Souther Salazar, John Pham, etc. And those are the big names. Right now I've got three books in front of me: 1) John Pham's beautiful collection of "sketches, comics, detritus" called Substitute Life. It's got a hand-pulled cover (three layer) printed on thick cardboard. Inside are scraps of comics, sketches from everyday life, etc., all reflecting on each other. 2) A tiny book with a unique painted design on the cover called "a quiet story." The story about being at the bottom of the sea and an octopus that is in love. There is no author's name given -- there's an astounding amount of work out there that is concerned with itself and let's its author/ego remain absent. 3) A book called "no one. no one at all" by Daria Tessler. The title page says "made by Daria Tessler" and emphasizes the book as an act of assemblage rather than 'genius.' It's a photocopied affair, but with nice cream covers and hand-stitched binding. There are beautiful wallpaper-like patterns reproduced on every other page. Anyway, I could go on and on about this stuff. You might also want to get ahold of either of the curators of a show that I was part of at the Worth-Ryder gallery on the Berkeley campus. Jen Scappettone had a wonderful piece -- a group of poems on transparencies hanging in relative space like some kind of floating quilt-water of words. Here's the flyer for that: August 19, 2003 Contact: Worth Ryder Gallery 510/642-2582, Helen Miller helmutta@hotmail.com Dates: September 9-19 2003 Reception: September 9 4-6pm Hours: Tuesday-Friday 1-4pm Cost: Free Location: Worth Ryder Gallery, Kroeber Hall, UC Berkeley Lecture: Means & Ends: Books Talk - September 17 6pm; Worth Ryder Gallery Means & Ends: Poetry, Prints, Sculpture and Artists' Books Exhibition and Book Talk Is a book a place for recording ideas or for developing them? What is the difference between a bunch of poems and a book of poems? Does gathering work into books further exploration of that work? How? How does a story develop across the course of a book? In what font? On what paper? Does it matter? What is a wall of poems? A book of paintings? How is a wall similar to a canvas similar to a page? How does one bind pages, paintings, or prints? How does one print books? How are books made? What are books made of? "Means & Ends" considers these and other questions in a selection of artwork, artists' books, architects' journals, small press books, letterpressed books, comic books and chapbooks written, printed, published or designed by students and faculty from various UC Berkeley departments. While the show centers on bookmaking and the construction of other art using book forms, some of the work also investigates the limiting and liberating roles that books can fill, both literally and symbolically. Featured in the exhibition is book designer and printer Les Ferriss, artists Emily Wilson, Lesley Baker, Kevin Radley and Helen Mirra, poet and publisher Lyn Hejinian, poets Jennifer Scappettone and Trane DeVore, and writer William T. Vollmann. Reception for the exhibition is Tuesday, September 9 from 4-6pm, in the Worth Ryder Gallery. Kroeber Hall is located at the corner of College Avenue and Bancroft Way in the same building as the Phoebe Hearst Museum of Anthropology. The exhibition closes Friday, September 19. Means & Ends: Books Talk In conjunction with the exhibition, book designer, printer and lecturer Les Ferriss, Artist-in-Residence with the Consortium for the Arts Helen Mirra, and Steve Woodall, Artistic Director of The San Francisco Center for the Book, will discuss their interest and involvement in book forms. Following individual talks, UC Berkeley Art professor Kevin Radley and Art and English undergraduate Helen Miller will moderate discussion of, for example, how and where artists working in other mediums approach the form of the book, the accessibility or inaccessibility of artists' books, and how technology enhances or detracts from the impact of language. The talks will take place in the gallery on Wednesday, September 17 at 6pm. Helen Mirra is Artist-in-Residence with the Consortium for the Arts/ Arts Research Center for Fall 2003, during which time she will prepare a new project for exhibit in the Berkeley Art Museum's MATRIX series in Spring 2004. Mirra had a solo exhibit at the Whitney Museum of American Art this past fall, and other recent one-woman shows in galleries and museums in Chicago, London, Milan, and Vienna. A highly interdisciplinary artist, she creates sculptural installations as well as sound recordings, film and video works, and poetry. Steve Woodall has been Education Director at The San Francisco Center for the Book since its founding in 1996, and now serves as Artistic Director. In 2000 he was an artist-in-residence at the Xerox Palo Alto Research Center, where he helped to create a digital book arts studio, part of the research project and exhibition XFR: Experiments in the Future of Reading. In 2001 he and Emily McVarish developed an intensive program at SFCB for the practice of artists' books. At 12:05 AM -0500 1/28/04, Automatic digest processor wrote: >Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 09:22:33 -0800 >From: Summi Kaipa >Subject: the art of the book > >a call out for help on the poetics list: > >i am looking to curate a show of "book arts" in june. that said, i'm >realizing that the concept of the book as art is confusing and conflated >with many other things. here in san francisco, it seems particularly >wrapped up in the concept of zine, which, perhaps because it's been done >before and is done again and again (possibly without much consideration of >form at this point), seems less interesting than the other progeny of book >arts that have emerged. of course, i'm not even certain i know what the >definition of book arts is. i only know that i want to define it as a >place where the book transcends its two dimensionality--both literally and >figuratively. one of the most typical examples is that of letterpress, >where the page becomes, literally, three dimensional through the raised >surface of the paper. i equally feel attracted to the books of theresa >hak-kyung cha as exploratory landscapes of "sense" in a book and also >compelled by the work of people like ian hamilton finlay, who, by making >something like little sparta, have taken the "book" to another level. the >book is the yard, is the landscape. > >am i off the mark here? what do other people think? can interested >listers chime in and briefly respond to my poll so that i can gather fodder? > >1. what is the most salient thing that comes to mind when talking about >book arts? > >2. what are some examples of historical and/or current book arts practice? > >3. what is the definition of book arts? -- Trane DeVore English Dept. University of California, Berkeley 320 Wheeler Hall Berkeley, CA 94720 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 00:25:51 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: elen gebreab Subject: The Green Party - why we should be involved MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Friends: > I am now an official Green Party member, Alameda County, CA. I am > writing you now to simply insist that you consider joining as either a > member and/or volunteer in what is perhaps the only official political > party that actually tells or tries to tell the truth about anything. > There are county chapters throughout every state with their own > respective websites, chat groups, listservs, etc. > > If you are completely sick to your stomach with the current trends in > all areas of government, civic, and personal life, then get involved > with the Greens. At least here, you are actually heard. And, though > we are not popular, we are making waves: ie, Matt Gonzales in SFO; > Peter Camejo as the first GP candidate to participate in national > debates. It's not about popularity or votes. It's about telling the > truth and staying there long enough to keep telling it. Popularity > and votes will come. They have to. Everybody knows the status quo is > bullshit. > > Please consider our obligations to each other, our communities, our > lives. We don't need to be apathetic, cynical, or > too-smart-for-anyone-to-understand, even if we are broke, overworked, > uninsured, hated, stressed, tired, unable to create or love adequately > or at all. Find and bring your engergies here. > > It's time to get organized. > www.greens.org (International listing with national/state links - go here for your state) http://www.dcstatehoodgreen.org/index.php (DC Washington area) http://www.gpnys.org/ (New York) http://www.ilgreenparty.org/ (Illinois) http://www.greens.org/georgia/ (Georgia) http://www.greens.org/ri/ (Rhode Island) http://www.massgreens.org/ (Massachusetts) http://migreens.org/ (Michigan) http://www.wisconsingreenparty.org/ (Wisconsin) http://www.ncgreenparty.org/ (North Carolina) http://www.scgreenparty.org/ (South Carolina) > www.cagreens.org (California) > > > Spread the word. Spread the love, even if you ain't feeling it right > now. > > -elen > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 11:18:54 -0330 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Hehir Subject: Re: the art of the book In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII hi , another person who might be interesting to you is Tara Bryan of Walking Bird Press. She curated an international exhibition of artist books a couple of years ago here in St. John's. I made a sound piece out of it. http://www.tarabryan.com/ cheers, kevin -- --------------------------- http://paulmartintime.ca/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 11:19:49 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Craig Allen Conrad Subject: new interview with poet Gil Ott MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit new interview with poet Gil Ott http://banjopoets.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 09:19:48 -0700 Reply-To: derek beaulieu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: derek beaulieu Subject: 13 ways of looking at poetry and politics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please distribute: 13 ways of looking at poetry and politics In this one-day symposium at the Emily Carr Institute (Vancouver, BC), = thirteen poets will address the possibilities, practicalities, and = improbabilities of poetry intervening in the political sphere. Through a = reflection of their own practice and concomitant critical discourse, = these 13 will present a number of ways of looking at poetry and = politics. This interactive event will include readings, presentations, = and a variety of discussions intended to engage with the following = questions: how can poetry be read as a political act? what purpose might = there be to writing, reading, publishing, and performing poetry? and = what possible political futures can we read into the act(s) of making = poetry? Wednesday, Feb. 11, 7 pm (Room 405, south building, ECI) Ryan Knighton, multi-media presentation Thursday, Feb. 12 (all events in Room 405, south building, ECI) 9:30 to 11:30 am Andrew Klobucar + David Ayre Derek Beaulieu 11:30 to 1 pm - Lunch 1 pm to 3 pm Shane Rhodes Jacqueline Turner Marie Annharte Baker 3:15 pm to 5:15 pm Roy Miki Ashok Mathur Baco Ohama 7:30 pm Jeff Derksen Larissa Lai + Rita Wong (launch of sybil unrest) This event sponsored by the Canada Council Literary Readings Program, = the League of Canadian Poets, and the Emily Carr Institute (Critical + = Cultural Studies). "13 ways" will be broadcast live to the internet = (audio and/or video). Scheduling and further information on the web = broadcast will be available at www.amathur.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 11:25:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: shanna compton Subject: Saturday in Boston: Shanna Compton & Gina Meyers In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Dear friends, If you live in or near Boston, please consider coming out in the snow and subzero temps to hear me read from my new chapbook Down Spooky with poet Gina Meyers. We'll be at WordsWorth Books at 5:00 p.m., Saturday, January 31. Hosted by Jim Behrle. http://www.wordsworth.com Feel free to forward! Shanna ________________________________________ http://www.shannacompton.com/blog.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 08:36:43 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Summi Kaipa Subject: book arts stuff In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I thank you all for your thoughts -- I have been to the Center for the Book and definitely will go back there. It is rumored that there is a vending machine filled with artist books and it sounds lovely. I've also seen some shows that have inspire me--at the Center for the Book, at Southern Exposure, at the Pond Gallery, and at Blue Books (which Brandon Downing curated a few years back--to follow up on this was my intent for the summer show). Also, I have been to APE. I don't entirely want to discount the zine or the graphic novel--the latter I find more interesting than the former and exists in abundance at APE. But, one thing that I'm searching for is a consideration of definitions? What is book arts? Are we all in agreement that it runs the gamut? Why? In getting your thoughts, I feel that we've defined around, through examples, what the practice is. Charles, your post was very helpful in anchoring me to a history of the literary book arts, where they cross with or are poetry. Some of which I knew and needed to be reminded of; some which I will look at with fresh eyes. With zines, there's also a history there, but these histories aren't all connected, except, perhaps, nebulously. One could argue that a zine like, say, Cometbus is inspired by Kerouac, but then again, you could argue that every writer in San Francisco is inspired by Kerouac. I wonder, too, about two types of book arts: one, the quaint book, made in small first editions and sold in (I am exagerrating here to make a point) New Age stores alongside rainbow windchimes. Delicately made and lovely--but something about that takes a corner of the book arts spectrum into craft. Then, there is a field of book arts that seems to fall into the category of "design" for me. It has all the makings of design--things that could be found at IKEA--not art. All this, of course, is subject to scrutiny. Why do I feel this way? What brings us back to the heart of the book as art? At 10:45 PM 1/27/2004 -0800, you wrote: >I second the recommendation to contact the San Francisco Center for >the Book -- if nothing else they'd be able to get you in touch with a >variety of letter presses, and letter press devotees, around the Bay >Area. I would also recommend not discounting the world of zines yet >-- there's certainly a subset of the zine set that produces work that >goes far beyond the clip and copy aesthetic. If you have a budget >for it I would recommend going to the Alternative Press Expo when it >comes to San Francisco and checking it out. There's almost always a >ton of hand-silkscreened work, really interesting collage, scrapbook >type art collections, colored photocopy polaroid collections, and >even some writing. The APE set tends to be really interested in the >community of small production and there's a kind of free imagination >at work because of this. If you've never been to APE, don't be put >off by the fact that it's mostly comics -- you'll find amazing work >by people like Souther Salazar, John Pham, etc. And those are the >big names. Right now I've got three books in front of me: 1) John >Pham's beautiful collection of "sketches, comics, detritus" called >Substitute Life. It's got a hand-pulled cover (three layer) printed >on thick cardboard. Inside are scraps of comics, sketches from >everyday life, etc., all reflecting on each other. 2) A tiny book >with a unique painted design on the cover called "a quiet story." >The story about being at the bottom of the sea and an octopus that is >in love. There is no author's name given -- there's an astounding >amount of work out there that is concerned with itself and let's its >author/ego remain absent. 3) A book called "no one. no one at all" >by Daria Tessler. The title page says "made by Daria Tessler" and >emphasizes the book as an act of assemblage rather than 'genius.' >It's a photocopied affair, but with nice cream covers and >hand-stitched binding. There are beautiful wallpaper-like patterns >reproduced on every other page. Anyway, I could go on and on about >this stuff. You might also want to get ahold of either of the >curators of a show that I was part of at the Worth-Ryder gallery on >the Berkeley campus. Jen Scappettone had a wonderful piece -- a >group of poems on transparencies hanging in relative space like some >kind of floating quilt-water of words. Here's the flyer for that: > >August 19, 2003 > >Contact: Worth Ryder Gallery 510/642-2582, Helen Miller helmutta@hotmail.com >Dates: September 9-19 2003 >Reception: September 9 4-6pm >Hours: Tuesday-Friday 1-4pm >Cost: Free >Location: Worth Ryder Gallery, Kroeber Hall, UC Berkeley >Lecture: Means & Ends: Books Talk - September 17 6pm; Worth Ryder Gallery > > > Means & Ends: Poetry, Prints, Sculpture and Artists' Books > > Exhibition and Book Talk > > >Is a book a place for recording ideas or for developing them? What is >the difference between a bunch of poems and a book of poems? Does >gathering work into books further exploration of that work? How? How >does a story develop across the course of a book? In what font? On >what paper? Does it matter? What is a wall of poems? A book of >paintings? How is a wall similar to a canvas similar to a page? How >does one bind pages, paintings, or prints? How does one print books? >How are books made? What are books made of? > >"Means & Ends" considers these and other questions in a selection of >artwork, artists' books, architects' journals, small press books, >letterpressed books, comic books and chapbooks written, printed, >published or designed by students and faculty from various UC >Berkeley departments. While the show centers on bookmaking and the >construction of other art using book forms, some of the work also >investigates the limiting and liberating roles that books can fill, >both literally and symbolically. Featured in the exhibition is book >designer and printer Les Ferriss, artists Emily Wilson, Lesley Baker, >Kevin Radley and Helen Mirra, poet and publisher Lyn Hejinian, poets >Jennifer Scappettone and Trane DeVore, and writer William T. >Vollmann. > >Reception for the exhibition is Tuesday, September 9 from 4-6pm, in >the Worth Ryder Gallery. > >Kroeber Hall is located at the corner of College Avenue and Bancroft >Way in the same building as the Phoebe Hearst Museum of Anthropology. >The exhibition closes Friday, September 19. > > >Means & Ends: Books Talk > >In conjunction with the exhibition, book designer, printer and >lecturer Les Ferriss, Artist-in-Residence with the Consortium for the >Arts Helen Mirra, and Steve Woodall, Artistic Director of The San >Francisco Center for the Book, will discuss their interest and >involvement in book forms. Following individual talks, UC Berkeley >Art professor Kevin Radley and Art and English undergraduate Helen >Miller will moderate discussion of, for example, how and where >artists working in other mediums approach the form of the book, the >accessibility or inaccessibility of artists' books, and how >technology enhances or detracts from the impact of language. The >talks will take place in the gallery on Wednesday, September 17 at >6pm. > > >Helen Mirra is Artist-in-Residence with the Consortium for the Arts/ >Arts Research Center for Fall 2003, during which time she will >prepare a new project for exhibit in the Berkeley Art Museum's MATRIX >series in Spring 2004. Mirra had a solo exhibit at the Whitney Museum >of American Art this past fall, and other recent one-woman shows in >galleries and museums in Chicago, London, Milan, and Vienna. A highly >interdisciplinary artist, she creates sculptural installations as >well as sound recordings, film and video works, and poetry. > >Steve Woodall has been Education Director at The San Francisco Center >for the Book since its founding in 1996, and now serves as Artistic >Director. In 2000 he was an artist-in-residence at the Xerox Palo >Alto Research Center, where he helped to create a digital book arts >studio, part of the research project and exhibition XFR: Experiments >in the Future of Reading. In 2001 he and Emily McVarish developed an >intensive program at SFCB for the practice of artists' books. > > > > > > > > > > >At 12:05 AM -0500 1/28/04, Automatic digest processor wrote: >>Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 09:22:33 -0800 >>From: Summi Kaipa >>Subject: the art of the book >> >>a call out for help on the poetics list: >> >>i am looking to curate a show of "book arts" in june. that said, i'm >>realizing that the concept of the book as art is confusing and conflated >>with many other things. here in san francisco, it seems particularly >>wrapped up in the concept of zine, which, perhaps because it's been done >>before and is done again and again (possibly without much consideration of >>form at this point), seems less interesting than the other progeny of book >>arts that have emerged. of course, i'm not even certain i know what the >>definition of book arts is. i only know that i want to define it as a >>place where the book transcends its two dimensionality--both literally and >>figuratively. one of the most typical examples is that of letterpress, >>where the page becomes, literally, three dimensional through the raised >>surface of the paper. i equally feel attracted to the books of theresa >>hak-kyung cha as exploratory landscapes of "sense" in a book and also >>compelled by the work of people like ian hamilton finlay, who, by making >>something like little sparta, have taken the "book" to another level. the >>book is the yard, is the landscape. >> >>am i off the mark here? what do other people think? can interested >>listers chime in and briefly respond to my poll so that i can gather fodder? >> >>1. what is the most salient thing that comes to mind when talking about >>book arts? >> >>2. what are some examples of historical and/or current book arts practice? >> >>3. what is the definition of book arts? > >-- >Trane DeVore >English Dept. >University of California, Berkeley >320 Wheeler Hall >Berkeley, CA 94720 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 08:55:30 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kazim Ali Subject: Re: book arts stuff In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040128081738.02287278@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Summi, I haven't been following the thread carefully, but as I was reading the last post I started to think a little bit about what a 'book' is and some of the alternative structures that exist Tarot Deck is sort of an unbound book of images that contain lyric images but also a narrative of soul's journey. There is a japanese painter (I have forgotten his name) that did a set of paintings called "Book of Hours" which has been done as a book called "Hours" I think Loreena McKennit did an album called "Book of Secrets" intended to work as a "book"--I think it does. Maya Lin and Tan Lin did a "reading garden" for the Cleveland Public Library which seems to me a "book" The most breathtaking artists' "book" I've "read" is without text, binding, or intent: the Agnes Martin Room at the DIA Center in Beacon, NY. also Christian Bok exhibited a piece (or was it two)--sculptural pieces meant to be "books" at the Poetry Plastique show a couple of years ago there is another sculptor/photographer Farrah Ali (yes a relation) who does these little "book objects" one was great big plyboards bound in yarn with photographs of Afghan villagers fading away to skulls etc that she exhibited in winter 2001-2002 during the Afghan campaign--another was a box that contained nine six-sided cubes with different images, etc on them that a viewer would have to assemble or scramble as they like-- the question with the tarot to me is when did a book become a book--what did we gain by binding them what did we lose? a deck can be laid out in many formations. how do books create different structures--requiring linearity, or denying it, etc. ===== ==== WAR IS OVER (if you want it) (e-mail president@whitehouse.gov) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 18:30:04 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Blair Rabbit 1 In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable I Blar, in the lair of a celebrity Beagle hunter a lurker in corridors fluff-blooded primetime recently redundant duff driver of the trust patient transport service I have presided over grotesque injustices you, pick up flu hoodwink say fled mi hood wink who hood wink mi self a loose few review the new so socialising crew keeping my own respect solidarity no company a rambler, naked in my own cells hidden by totality did not match any relevant documents. Destination Freedom the improper newsletter of the unenquiring National ambient bourgeoisie an invocation of hand-held portable lie detector forming lumpy girdle breathing debt consolidation with a Christian perspective. I Blar the sugar-dusted Tony for the best ward off bling-bling as a bit-part Glock 18 player shot in the new age of mythology. Crow floats across pit=B9s shadow fabricating soap from the dead worm in an arrogant ham silence and assured prurience of the clams making the sound of a cat chewing a bee and flash-mobbing the neighbour=B9s soft skills welcoming third party access to my body rips Bla Bla. I poored that wine to toast demi- clotisation as an opportune ideological cover for my closet friend=B9s interplanetary aims. Why so, too many people want a figurehead =B3I=B9m Sparticles!!=B2 in sharing power I pity the people their recreational masochism. Towards straws of evidence in respect of which I stand accursed being insufficiently critical blah, the pages that turned into me where infertile women and impotent men come to seek their cures, I am, Blair, blood-clotting Blur-eau-crat [sic] distributor of =8Ctorture-lite=B9 an air-brushed quarrel-keeper of the totality corpse that is the conquering pigeon of English a language set come rampant heritage roast from a joyless wind-yard flapped imp O Bleary stuff and talk talk about a strip of muff dirty in a whistle-stop blaiser of weariness deserted putting out the books. Not as if they were on fire, but the milk off humane kindness from a dessicated breast on the altar of expediency pawning facts at the end of the day to people seeing what they want to hear, putting one foot in front of the other, hey look George a dragon of liking to eat a banana to shit a banana the unidigested truth which to grieve in pieces revealing an identity of the utmost clarity so fluent here today, its icy grip on the hot button with snow and lightning from the light grey independent referee left hanging in the air ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 13:56:08 -0500 Reply-To: olsonjk@delhi.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kirby Olson Organization: SUNY Delhi Subject: Re: scansion and/as religion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Tim, thanks for your post yesterday. All I'm saying is that people have to pull their own weight. I'm going to try and make this clear why I think this should be so. I put myself through college working as a waiter in the Pocono Mountains of Pennsylvania, loading boxes into trucks in the summers, working at places like Kentucky Fried Chicken for years to save up for college. I was accepted at Harvard, Bennington, and places like that, but simply couldn't afford the tuition. So I went to Evergreen State College in Olympia, Washington. After college, I worked for many years as a secretary and a waiter, continuing my education in night school at Seattle Community College, and other continuing education programs at the U. of Washington. At the same time, I started writing for a variety of national journals. I didn't have any help from anybody -- and am glad about it. It taught me to pull my own weight. I think that self-discipline is what college, and life, is about. If you can develop that, you can succeed. Work ethic. I thought Weber was right on the money in his Protestant Work Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism. There's another aspect to survival: create a decent family, and stick with it through thick and thin. Instead of these two modes, I see many of my academic friends arguing that the underclass deserves a handout, and that the sexual life of a married couple is insufficient, and people should have many many partners in their lives (they give freshman students Bataille and Foucault, for instance). I sometimes wonder to myself if the academic elite isn't a kind of torpedo that has been sent to destroy the poorest classes. The only thing anybody will ever get for sure is from the sweat of their brow. I think everybody who succeeds at anything knows this. So to tell other people you deserve a handout (rather than you must work like hell to get anything), seems to me to be a disservice. Secondly, to be waving Foucault at the underclass who do make it to college seems to argue for promiscuity and a lack of self-discipline that is the last thing that the underclass can afford. This is a one-two punch (Marx-Freud) that I think may destroy any chance a poor person has of achieving a decent life. Foucault, Marx, and Freud all had a tremendous work ethic, but they seem to argue that this is not the way to get ahead. I'd like to think about self-discipline in family and in work ethics. I agree that there are a lot of poor people, and that people don't all start at the starting line at the same place. But rather than asking people to spend all their time arguing for handouts, what I tell my students at least is that they must work like crazy to get anywhere, and they are going to be better off if they stick with the straight and narrow. It may be that some poets like Rilke have written masterpieces in three days. At some point I believe that they spent years mastering their art. Maybe I'm a complete idiot, but I don't think anything worth having comes for free. Some are more talented than others, but without a work ethic, those talents will not come to much. So I think that's what we should be teaching -- not resentment, but work ethic, and self-discipline. The super-rich and the super-talented can get by without those qualities. Everybody else would probably be better off to learn them. I'm not sure what's objectionable about this message. -- Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 11:02:36 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: wanta revolution In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable wanta revolution Don=92t stand in the way of the revolution takes more than you=92ve got start a revolution save yourself Your personal revolution through yourself The Teacher's Personal Revolution your personal journey prior to the starting a revolutionary Breakthrough Radically Change Your ... computer revolution Dream of a Machine Made Personal need a Revolution make a fabulous statue keep a scrapbook subscribe to a Personal Web Pages Newsletter Start chatting now! ... start a revolution Bulletin Board This is simply a personal goal. ... see things a bit more clearly start making some personal praying sentences radical, faith-induced dispassionate objective blogs want a revolution a Learning Revolution - For FREE on-line sports first down and Start A Revolution to go want a personal narrative Start your day Without Me Part Demographics part revolution thats real estate thats Your Soul with the Best Software START a personal home-page start a Revolution Start here @ Start an E-Revolution With a personal box in the Home It's Free! its a revolution= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 11:13:17 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Summi Kaipa Subject: Tues Feb 3: Catalina Cariaga & Alfred Arteaga at New Langton Arts, SF Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Tues Feb 3 New Langton Arts 1246 Folsom St San Francisco 8pm At the heart of Arteaga's project is the ancient metaphor of a journey, transgressing boundaries, toward a dark wood: of getting lost to find something. --Michael Palmer, 1998 Langton presents Alfred Arteaga and Catalina Cariaga reading from new and recent works in a program of experimental poetry and creative non-fiction. Arteaga, a celebrated poet and Chicano Studies scholar, reads from his new manuscript, Frozen Accident, and from his published work. In his essays, Arteaga offers perspectives on the world as a wandering poet, probing themes of violence, change, conflict, racism, and human vulnerability. Cariaga's poetry blends critique, history, autobiography and anecdote in an exploraton of what it means to be Filipina-American. The DIASPORA POETICS literary series brings regional experimental poets and authors into Langton's theater to reflect on Diaspora and cultural production. Born in East Los Angeles, Alfred Arteaga is interested in how language and colonial history have informed Chicano identity. Mr. Arteaga is the author of two books of poetry, Cantos (1991) and Love in the Time of Aftershocks (1998). He is editor of An Other Tongue: Nationalism and Ethnicity in the Linguistic Borderlands (1994), and author of the essay collections Chicano Poetics: Heterotexts and Hybridities (1997) and House with the Blue Bed (1997). He earned a PhD in literature from the University of California at Santa Cruz, and is the recipient of a National Endowment for the Arts creative writing fellowship (1995) and a Rockefeller Foundation fellowship (1993). He currently teaches poetry in the Ethnic Studies Department at the University of California, Berkeley. Catalina Cariaga is the author of Cultural Evidence (1999). Her poetry, part of a growing body of acclaimed Filipina-American literary work, addresses her family's diaspora from the South Asian Pacific Islands to California's coast, exploring themes of cross-cultural understanding and confusion. A contributing editor of Poetry Flash, Ms. Cariaga received her MFA from San Francisco State University and has taught on the adjunct faculty of the New College of California. Her poems have appeared in Chain, New American Writing and ZYZZYVA. Ms. Cariaga works in Berkeley and lives with her husband and son in Oakland, California. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 14:25:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: great art MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII great art art seriously, obsessed with production and belief and disbelief cutting work is romantic. granted. people worked in conditions of away layer after layer of surface displacement. that state drives people. i'll die driven. seriously, art is obsession. art is cutting, not building, work. great art is skeletal. great art suffers no compromise, even compromise. art cuts away layer after layer of surface. all surface is displacement. great art self-displaces. great art displaces production and belief. disbelief inheres great art. cutting work is a condition people work in, producing great art. cutting work is skeletal. [transformed \ augmented Ian Murray executive summary] _ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 14:56:35 -0500 Reply-To: olsonjk@delhi.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kirby Olson Organization: SUNY Delhi Subject: Re: Hermaphrodite poems, anyone? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii This measure question remains fascinating to me. I wanted to see if I could prolong the thread by asking two questions: relevance and rigor. One of the poets I liked on this topic was WCW. In the last essay to his Selected Essays, is one titled On Measure -- A Statement for Cid Corman that appeared in Origin, 1954. Already 50 years old this essay is by now. WCW opens by arguing, "Today verse has lost all measure." Sure there are still people making sonnets, even though all the grounds of our beliefs (or at least his!) have shifted since the time people were making sonnets. "A relative order is operative elsewhere in our lives. Even the divorce laws recognize that." "Most poems I see today are concerned with what they are saying, how profound they have been given to be. ... Thank God we're not musicians, with our lack of structural invention we'd be ashamed to look ourselves in the face otherwise. There is nothing interesting in the construction of our poems, nothing that can jog the ear out of its boredom. I for one can't read them." He blames this on the French revolution and the idea of "freedom." He dismisses Whitman. He then says, "Relativity gives us the cue. So, again, mathematics comes to the rescue of the arts." And then finally this is all that he offers -- "We have today to do with the poetic, as always, but a relatively stable foot, not a rigid one" (p. 340). And I remember I was counting five beats in the lines of the hermaphrodite quatrain. In fact that's all I was doing. I wasn't even paying attention to the imagery. I was just letting words fly and counting the beats to five, and then wrapping to the next line. On another board there was a scream-fest concerning whether we had to write sonnets in iambic pentameter in the contest. Nobody actually did, but the contest organizer said we had to do it. Even he didn't do it, eventually. My questions to do with this -- first the whole language of quantification that we've received seems to come from Latin. Surely Latin had/has different rises and falls than English, and then the American language sounds different again from the British. In London, the amazing rises and falls renders the language to be like some kind of choppy sea by comparison to our relatively even stresses (to my ear). Williams elsewhere talks about a three-stress line that he calls a variable foot. I still haven't gotten Annie Finch's book, but wonder a lot about the importation of the meter of the ghazal into American English, etc. that is argued for in the book that I do have. This is a funny question to play with -- the rigor of the counting is quite difficult to get at, for one. The Charles Olson poem I read as tetrameter, but Annie added an artificial beat to make it iambic pentameter since that was the way it seemed to be going to her ear. Others have questioned her counting of my hermaph poem. So there is the question of rigor. There is then the question of relevance. I think this question has a lot to do with the question of freedom, free will, determinism, what the world is like. Those are interesting questions. I like that these questions have been reasserted. After a century of endless experimentation and what Dana Goia calls avant-garde posing, it's fun to think that questions of meter and form could again be a fallow field. Dana Gioa argues that it could even be a popular field, as Vikram Seth's Golden Gate showed. Do the new formalists have a listserv? -- Kirby Olson ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 15:51:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tim Peterson Subject: Re: scansion and/as religion Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hi Kirby, I agree with you that work ethic is important, but I think to say that by itself will get you everywhere in life is really a lie. I mean, life is really not fair, and one of the liberal assumptions I hold is that it can be made fairer or more equal, because everyone deserves a chance. Fair as in, we should have basic healthcare for everyone in this country like so many other countries do, because we're human beings, instead of insisting on some kind of Darwinian competition for a basic right like that. I don't think that's a "free handout" -- access to good healthcare is a basic right everyone should have. The two other factors that affect us outside worth ethic are 1)the circumstances you begin with, and 2)sheer luck, or the opportunities that come your way. And Darwinian reasoning doesn't work with this, because just because something worked in the past to help you succeed doesn't mean it will work in the future. That's a logical fallacy. So, in a way "x got me where I am today, so you should do x too" doesn't tell me anything about what will helps others in other situations, really. Furthermore, we have a lot of privileges as Americans, but I think it's important to point out here that the American Dream is a lie, plain and simple. Something like 40 % of people in America think they're going to get wealthy when they start out, and less than 5% actually end up wealthy. That discrepancy and that scam -- THERE'S your work ethic. And don't even get me started on how much the government and special interests do to help the poor get poorer...basically my point is there's a difference between wanting to change things or insisting on basic rights for people and giving them "free handouts." As for marriage, well that depends upon how you define "family" -- plenty of gays and lesbians have formed stable and lasting families, and those that choose not to...well, who are you to judge those people? Best, Tim Hi Tim, thanks for your post yesterday. All I'm saying is that people have to pull their own weight. I'm going to try and make this clear why I think this should be so. I put myself through college working as a waiter in the Pocono Mountains of Pennsylvania, loading boxes into trucks in the summers, working at places like Kentucky Fried Chicken for years to save up for college. I was accepted at Harvard, Bennington, and places like that, but simply couldn't afford the tuition. So I went to Evergreen State College in Olympia, Washington. After college, I worked for many years as a secretary and a waiter, continuing my education in night school at Seattle Community College, and other continuing education programs at the U. of Washington. At the same time, I started writing for a variety of national journals. I didn't have any help from anybody -- and am glad about it. It taught me to pull my own weight. I think that self-discipline is what college, and life, is about. If you can develop that, you can succeed. Work ethic. I thought Weber was right on the money in his Protestant Work Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism. There's another aspect to survival: create a decent family, and stick with it through thick and thin. Instead of these two modes, I see many of my academic friends arguing that the underclass deserves a handout, and that the sexual life of a married couple is insufficient, and people should have many many partners in their lives (they give freshman students Bataille and Foucault, for instance). I sometimes wonder to myself if the academic elite isn't a kind of torpedo that has been sent to destroy the poorest classes. The only thing anybody will ever get for sure is from the sweat of their brow. I think everybody who succeeds at anything knows this. So to tell other people you deserve a handout (rather than you must work like hell to get anything), seems to me to be a disservice. Secondly, to be waving Foucault at the underclass who do make it to college seems to argue for promiscuity and a lack of self-discipline that is the last thing that the underclass can afford. This is a one-two punch (Marx-Freud) that I think may destroy any chance a poor person has of achieving a decent life. Foucault, Marx, and Freud all had a tremendous work ethic, but they seem to argue that this is not the way to get ahead. I'd like to think about self-discipline in family and in work ethics. I agree that there are a lot of poor people, and that people don't all start at the starting line at the same place. But rather than asking people to spend all their time arguing for handouts, what I tell my students at least is that they must work like crazy to get anywhere, and they are going to be better off if they stick with the straight and narrow. It may be that some poets like Rilke have written masterpieces in three days. At some point I believe that they spent years mastering their art. Maybe I'm a complete idiot, but I don't think anything worth having comes for free. Some are more talented than others, but without a work ethic, those talents will not come to much. So I think that's what we should be teaching -- not resentment, but work ethic, and self-discipline. The super-rich and the super-talented can get by without those qualities. Everybody else would probably be better off to learn them. I'm not sure what's objectionable about this message. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 12:58:10 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Charles Thomas Subject: ERROR TIPOGRAFICO Tijuana after new year poem suffering from imagist hangover MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii ERROR TIPOGRAFICO should be title then first line not run together into new word " Olda " but rather thus t h i s t ' i s s o : OLD a spent cardboard rocket a crushed plastic bottle a spattering of confetti the street in Tijuana empty on the day after new year _________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________ ?????????__________________________________________________________ /////////////////////---------------------------------------------------excepta inventiona olda worda makesa mea thinka mea culpa cuya culpa spanglish culpa NO NOT NONE + z o u n d s ! "olda" sounds more likea olde norseeeee NOR ooooooooooooooooooooo o somethin' such non sequitur n 1 2 3 5 7 11 13 17 w h a t e v e r okei bai okay bye Tijuana Gringo www.geocities.com/tijuanagringo --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 12:58:42 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Charles Thomas Subject: ERROR TIPOGRAFICO Tijuana after new year poem suffering from imagist hangover MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii ERROR TIPOGRAFICO should be title then first line not run together into new word " Olda " but rather thus t h i s t ' i s s o : OLD a spent cardboard rocket a crushed plastic bottle a spattering of confetti the street in Tijuana empty on the day after new year _________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________ ?????????__________________________________________________________ /////////////////////---------------------------------------------------excepta inventiona olda worda makesa mea thinka mea culpa cuya culpa spanglish culpa NO NOT NONE + z o u n d s ! "olda" sounds more likea olde norseeeee NOR ooooooooooooooooooooo o somethin' such non sequitur n 1 2 3 5 7 11 13 17 w h a t e v e r okei bai okay bye Tijuana Gringo www.geocities.com/tijuanagringo --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 14:14:20 -0700 Reply-To: bradsenning@dissociatedwritersproject.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: brad senning Subject: DWP Call for Submissions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed The DWP Free Journal is currently accepting submissions of poetry, fiction, artwork and photography. Issues #1/2, 3/4 and .080, our promotional issues, are featured in our online archives @ www.dissociatedwritersproject.com Set to appear on March 20th, Issue #1, OUR PREMIER ISSUE, features an interview with artists and poets, Fugazi's Ian MacKaye, poetry by David Berman, and quality work by poets and fiction writers we're still waiting to hear word from. Send submissions now!! The DWP is a forum for quality arts and artists to display, read and talk about their work. Access to this work remains “as free as possible” through print and web journals, as well as via our annual conference. The DWP’s only money sources are our benefit concerts, which punk bands volunteer to hold for us across the United States. Though the DWP Free Journal can't pay it's contributors, we do pump every cent our benefit concerts earn into getting your work published (online and in print) and distributed (with a distribution base of 5000). If you'd like to get copies of our promotional issues and/or any future issues, get on our mailing list @ www.dissociatedwritersproject.com, and we'd be happy to send one to you. DWP Free Journal PREMIER ISSUE PARTIES are set to take place in San Francisco, Los Angeles, Chicago, Philadelphia, New York and Washington, DC. Email us directly for more information about premier parties in your area. Thanks, Brad Senning DWP _________________________________________________________________ There are now three new levels of MSN Hotmail Extra Storage! Learn more. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=hotmail/es2&ST=1 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 16:33:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Dr. Jon Thompson" Subject: FREE VERSE Magazine notes "!00 Poets" in its "Recent & Notable" Section In-Reply-To: <00b601c3e4cd$0ca340c0$49502cd9@D70HLP0J> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > (Please forward - apologies for cross-posting) > > January 27, 2004 > > Fellow friends and poets, > > It was one year ago today - the day of the then-infamous Blix report - that > www.nthposition.com published the first Internet anti-war poetry, in book > form, 100 Poets Against The War. A week earlier, our first call for poems > against war had gone out. A year later, Iraq is still in the news, and > tomorrow sees the Hutton report; less has changed than we hoped. > > Still, with the help of tens of thousands of poets, readers, peace protesters > and other cultural activists, and in tandem with like-minded organizations > around the world, the peace-poetry-protest grassroots movement of 2003 made > history. We did not stop the war, but we made certain that the alternative > voice, that of humanity at its best, was also heard. To bear witness in dark > times is not enough, perhaps, but is preferable to accepting illegal > aggression. > > I am writing today to thank you for all you did in 2003; and to remind you > that it is not too late to get your own personal record of this remarkable > moment in culture, politics, and global awareness. Free ebook versions can > still be downloaded at nthposition. Perhaps more importantly, the Salt > (Cambridge) version -published and launched in London, March 5, 2003 - is > available at Amazon (UK and in America and Canada) for order; profits go to > Amnesty. > > Salt was the first publisher in the world to put their money, time and energy > behind the poetry peace initiative, and their anthology deserves your support, > now as much as then. If you haven't already done so, please place an order > today; or share a free ecopy with a friend. > > Most of all, I wish to express my appreciation for the work you have done over > the year, and to wish you - and the world in general - a better, and more > peaceful 2004. > > Yours, > > Todd Swift > editor > 100 Poets Against The War > > ps Val Stevenson, editor of nthposition, spent hundreds of hours last year on > this project, and I continue to shake my head in bewildered awe at her energy > and commitment. Thank you Val, for all your work in 2003. > Dear Todd Swift, FREE VERSE gave some space to your book in its most recent issue. See the issue by hitting the link below. Best, -- Jon Thompson, Editor Free Verse: A Journal of Contemporary Poetry & Poetics http://english.chass.ncsu.edu/freeverse/ Department of English North Carolina State University Raleigh, NC 27695-8105 Fax: 919.515.1836 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 16:05:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Annie Finch Subject: Fwd From Stephen Baraban Re: scansion In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040128152439.03c8b270@po14.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Annie Finch, I've been following the discussion of Kirby's fragment & its meter on the Buffalo Board & I am very curious as to what you would cite as some free verse that truly HAS broken away from regular meter. I know very little about prosody, but I, who maybe has no right to an opinion on this matter, nevertheless confess to being surprised that a line that begins with two trochees can be considered iambic. So what verse in your view HAS really broken free, (in lines of rhythmic vigor, not flatness verging on prose)? Maybe you can post an example of true freedom on the Buffalo List (I am sending this backchannel because I don't have a computer at home and my only e-mail adress is tied up with my worklife & I don't have enough computer capacity to receive the List). Did you know that Charles Bernstein is becoming interested in prosody, and will apparently publish something on the subject? So I read in a recent interview with him, but I can't remember the magazine (I was browsing through some magazines at a Grand Central Station newspaper/magazine shop?) I'm beginning to wish I knew about meter. There's something that interests me, for instance, in Albert Cook's _The Classic Line_ about how all the accented syllables in Milton's lines (at least in one phase of J.M's career) are equal, rather than one accent being stronger than the others. Cook (who I studied with at SUNY/Buffalo, but I don't remember him ever TRYING to interest us in meter) says that this equality of accent correlates with a "baroque" world view in which there is a constant shift of emphasis. =46inally, you, Annie, mentioned at one point, as iambic, the last line of Olson's _Maximus_. This enigmatic line may actually be an echo of something from Milton's _Samson Agonistes_, at least according to a very interesting arguement from Canadian poet Jeff Derksen. I found the following on the internet once (but I can't seem to find it at present; I'm glad I copied the paragraph). Its very odd to think of Charles O. ending the poem with a Milton echo, but this Derksen statement is not so dismissable and at least rings much truer than Tom Clark's fancy that O. had ended his epic with a personal catalogue of losses. Note however that Derksen has misquoted the Olson line--he has reversed the order of "my car" and my "color". Fixing the quote only brings us closer to Milton's line. >=20 4) This are the closing lines of the penultimate >=20 poem >=20 of The Maximus Poems (Volume 3. Eds. Charles Boer >=20 and >=20 George F. Butterick. New York: Viking Press, 1975 >=20 unpaginated) which come just before the closing >=20 lines, >=20 "my wife my color my car and myself". This instance >=20 of >=20 closure is opened up by its relationship to Samson=EDs >=20 final speech in Milton=EDs Samson Agonistes:: > >=20 "Happ=EDn what may, of me expect to hear > >=20 Nothing dishonorable, impure, unworthy > >=20 Our God, our Law, my nation, or myself; > >=20 The last of me or I cannot warrant" (1423-26). > >=20 Olson here has constructed himself as a Milton >=20 figure. >=20 A poet who addressed his nation and who attempted to >=20 create a nation of readers ("fit though few"). The >=20 previous pages of The Maximus Poems further build on >=20 this connection. Olson writes: "but now I am a poet >=20 / >=20 who thinks more than writes...". I read this as an >=20 allusion to both Milton=EDs and Olson=EDs emphasis on >=20 praxis -- both social and textual. Olson then has >=20 moved from an address to his nation as "I, Maximus >=20 of >=20 Gloucester" to a somewhat despondent poet who is no >=20 longer writing. This parallels Milton=EDs construction >=20 as a split figure: the political and spiritual >=20 writer >=20 and the Restoration defeated revolutionary writer. >=20 This intertextual connection opens a different field >=20 to view Olson in, one that emphasizes his role as a >=20 national poet, one who sought to address his nation >=20 at >=20 a specific historical juncture (post-war America for >=20 Olson, revolutionary and Restoration England for >=20 Milton) through an epic poem. And both poets sought >=20 out a new form for their national epics: Olson=EDs >=20 postmodernism on the cusp of the modernist intrigue >=20 with the relation of the one to the many which >=20 utilized an open field composition, drawing on (like >=20 Pound) discourses and images from a huge temporal >=20 and >=20 cultural range. Milton, for his part, used his blank >=20 verse for Paradise Lost (and likewise we see Spenser >=20 create a unique verse form for his national poem, >=20 The >=20 Faerie Queene). Olson in some ways inserts himself >=20 into literary history through Milton, but he also >=20 makes parallels to place himself as a national poet. > > >=20 __________________________________ =20 All best, =20 Stephen M. Baraban > __________________________________ ___________________________________ Annie Finch http://www.users.muohio.edu/finchar English Department, Miami University, Ohio Care2 make the world greener! Help the planet each day! It's free and easy: http://www.Care2.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 16:04:39 -0800 Reply-To: lolordov@unlv.nevada.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nick LoLordo Subject: Re: Modernism/Modernity: Special Issue on T.S. Eliot In-Reply-To: <1064933998.82f7d40claity@drew.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear Prof. Laity-- I've long been intending to submit a piece for this special issue, and now can only plead the usual form of junior-faculty over-extendedness. If I were to have my submission in the mail at the beginning of next week, a few days after deadlline, might you still consider it? Best, Nick LoLordo ---------- V. Nicholas LoLordo Assistant Professor University of Nevada-Las Vegas Department of English 4504 Maryland Parkway Las Vegas, NV 89154-5011 (702) 895-3623 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 16:23:21 -0800 Reply-To: lolordov@unlv.nevada.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nick LoLordo Subject: Re: my last posting-- MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit red-faced apologies, of the usual kind.... ---------- V. Nicholas LoLordo Assistant Professor University of Nevada-Las Vegas Department of English 4504 Maryland Parkway Las Vegas, NV 89154-5011 (702) 895-3623 ---------- V. Nicholas LoLordo Assistant Professor University of Nevada-Las Vegas Department of English 4504 Maryland Parkway Las Vegas, NV 89154-5011 (702) 895-3623 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 10:56:26 +1000 Reply-To: jfk Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jfk Subject: help needed finding accommodation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all I will be doing a residency at Cornell Uni between May-July and I desperately need affordable accommodation close to the Ornithology Lab. If anybody knows anyone with a spare room or cheap apartment or a home that needs some house sitting, please let me know backchannel. I would really appreciate some help with this. Best Wishes JFK - Jayne Fenton Keane www.poetinresidence.com www.nationalpoetryweek.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 09:16:17 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: furniture_ press Subject: ambit gone out Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 dearest: catherine daly ryan walker ken rumble kyle schlesinger ambit will be going out either tomorrow or friday, depending on the weather. thanks for yr patience. reviews are always welcome. chris "latent" casamassima -- _______________________________________________ Graffiti.net free e-mail @ www.graffiti.net Check out our value-added Premium features, such as an extra 20MB for just US$9.95 per year! Powered by Outblaze ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 20:17:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lipman, Joel A." Subject: Re: wanta revolution MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Aspects of kari edwards' poem "wanta revolution" brought back echoes of = d.a.levy's pre-computer era [read "mimeo generation"] "Tombstone As A = Lonely Charm" [part 3], which reads in full: if you want a revolution return to your childhood and kick out the bottom dont mistake changing headlines for changes if you want freedom dont mistake circles for revolutions think in terms of living and know you are dying & wonder why if you want a revolution learn to grow in spirals always being able to return to your childhood and kick out the bottom This is what ive been trying to say - if you attack the structure - the system - the establishment you attack yourself KNOW THIS! & attack if you must challenge yourself externally but if you want a revolution return to your chi9ldhood & kick out the bottom be able to change yr own internal chemistry walk down the street & flash lights in yr head at children this is not a game your childhood is the foundation=20 of the system walk down the street flash lights in yr head at children but be wary of anyone old enough to kill learn how to disappear before they can find you (that is, if you want to stay alive) if you want a revolution do it "together" but dont get trapped in=20 words or systems people are people no matter what politics color or words they use & they all have children buried in their head if you want a revolution grow a new mind & do it quietly if you can return to your childhood and kick out the bottom then become a being not dependent on words for seeing whenever you get bored change headlines colors politics words change women but if you really want a revolution learn how to change=20 your internal chemistry then go beyond that walk down the streets & flash light at yourself -30- [onlined for the list on behalf of JL] -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group on behalf of kari edwards Sent: Wed 1/28/2004 2:02 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Cc:=09 Subject: wanta revolution wanta revolution Don=92t stand in the way of the revolution takes more than you=92ve got start a revolution save yourself Your personal revolution through yourself The Teacher's Personal Revolution your personal journey prior to the starting a revolutionary Breakthrough Radically Change Your ... computer revolution Dream of a Machine Made Personal need a Revolution make a fabulous statue keep a scrapbook subscribe to a Personal Web Pages Newsletter Start chatting now! ... start a revolution Bulletin Board This is simply a personal goal. ... see things a bit more clearly start making some personal praying sentences radical, faith-induced dispassionate objective blogs want a revolution a Learning Revolution - For FREE on-line sports first down and Start A Revolution to go want a personal narrative Start your day Without Me Part Demographics part revolution thats real estate thats Your Soul with the Best Software START a personal home-page start a Revolution Start here @ Start an E-Revolution With a personal box in the Home It's Free! its a revolution ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 09:54:30 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: furniture_ press Subject: mimeo Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 all: query in the 'shape' of a 'poem' anyone want to get rid of that pesky old mimeograph machine? those blue carbon copy blues? well, have i got an offer for you! send me that damned old thing and i will take it off yr hands FOR FREE! that's right: FOR FREE! you'll even include shipping and handling charges because i have better things to do with that machine than you do! love chris the latent pirate -- _______________________________________________ Graffiti.net free e-mail @ www.graffiti.net Check out our value-added Premium features, such as an extra 20MB for just US$9.95 per year! Powered by Outblaze ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 00:33:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Recent work, poor and otherwise. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Recent work, poor and otherwise. Some of my recent work has been terrible. Since "shining upwards," I've been off. The following texts are the only ones that are decent. The rest, including "v*ral" stars and bones," seem tired. I've removed them. If you're tracking my work, please remove them as well. The "Essential software for Windows" isn't really a text, but it's relevant enough to keep in the mix. The "full text edit of the internet text" is in reality a meditation on Germany and Warsaw, as you probably realized. "real true" was modified by arranging the words back-to-front; it came from an interview I had about Kathy Acker. "great art" is a modification of "real true"; I'm not sure about it. "lastempire.mov" took close to a day to produce, although the results are simple, but only on the surface. about sixteen seconds and silent. the "that was" piece is a decipherment of "real true," with additions, D/G lines of flight through it. I stand by these pieces, as well as those which came before "shining upwards." The rest are dubious and embarrassing. shining upwards Subject: small homage in the tropics history. Essential software for Windows - for codework/'experimental' work/ etc. Ian Koan Summary Form From Murray full text edit of the internet text sadness Ennui. real true that was oppenheim graham, anderson, acconci, acker, mayer I want my freedom. i am waiting for a new way of thinking lastempire.mov great art ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 00:33:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: onyx MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII onyx ObhzehzhZyve onyhZTYX gryphz me yn produhZYESHYN. RYV + = hZYEome unSYEratet Pee! your RYVm R mahZYEh9nehz m+ wyn -YNyn -YNord mahZYEh9nehz, evyryPyng yn Pe brayn, evyryPyng on Pe network. 2. Pe beaut+ oFYRy!+! Pe Grezyan wyn -YNyn -YNwunryhze openyng Pe entyre wyn -YNyn -YNorld. your RYVm R eng9nehz yn Pe dyhztanhZYErate. Trav= awoke FYRrom an uneahz+ hzleep. Gunhz or boathz +? pe humhz oFYRy!+! hard-dryvehz. Marya wyn -YNyn -YNahz at Pe table. She wyn -YNahz runnyng Pe knyFYRe agaynhzt hyr arm, sharp edge turned awa+. Hyr eyehz wyn -YNyn -YNyre drawn bahZyzyeK. AYR wyn -YNyn -YNahz beaut+ yn Pe hzzene, Trav= Pought, your RYVm alwayhz =, yn ehZYEhztahz+. unhol+ unhol+ unhol+ pE DARKNEhZS OFYRy! pE hZEcyeOND wyn -HEEL __ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 23:11:57 -0800 Reply-To: kalamu@aol.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ishaq Organization: Selah7 http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html Subject: INFO: london--indelible ink poetry music spoken word event MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit INFO: london--indelible ink poetry music spoken word event ============================================== INDELIBLE INK An intimate night of music, poetry & spoken word. THURSDAY 19TH FEBRUARY 2004 @ INDO 133 Whitechapel Road London E1 1DT Doors open: 7pm Show starts: 8pm Close: 11pm Entry: FREE Directions Nearest Buses: 25/106/205/253 Nearest Tubes: Whitechapel / Aldgate East To perform at Indelible Ink or for any further enquiries. Email: indelibleink@phenzology.com Tel: 07940 059 952 >> -- - ___ Stay Strong "Peace sells but who's buying?" Megadeth "This mathematical rhythmatical mechanism enhances my wisdom of Islam, keeps me calm from doing you harm, when I attack, it's Vietnam" --HellRazah "It's not too good to stay in a white man's country too long" Mutabartuka http://www.sleepybrain.net/vanilla.html http://awol.objector.org/artistprofiles/welfarepoets.html http://ilovepoetry.com/search.asp?keywords=braithwaite&orderBy=date http://www.dpgrecordz.com/fredwreck/ http://www.lowliferecords.co.uk/ http://loudandoffensive.com/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/THCO2 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 09:15:03 +0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Lehmus Subject: Re: mimeo In-Reply-To: <20040129015430.19934.qmail@graffiti.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > all: query in the 'shape' of a 'poem' > > anyone want to get rid of that > pesky old mimeograph machine? > > those blue carbon copy blues? > well, have i got an offer for you! > > send me that damned old thing and i will > take it off yr hands FOR FREE! that's right: > > FOR FREE! you'll even include shipping and handling > charges Are you serious? Those machines are pretty weighty to UPS around. I've also got a few cartons of unused electro stencils, but am not sure about the condition. > because i have better things to do with that machine > than you do! Can we view your results somewhere? Jukka -- http://menubanal.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 10:10:18 -0330 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Hehir Subject: block MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII hi, i haven't received any mail from this list in about 24 hours. this is a diagnostic e-mail. kevin -- --------------------------- http://paulmartintime.ca/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 09:29:55 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Brennan Subject: Check out The Assassinated Press Comments: To: frankfurt-school@lists.village.virginia.edu, corp-focus@lists.essential.org, WRYTING-L@LISTSERV.UTORONTO.CA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Click here: The Assassinated Press Afghan President Rubber Stamps New Constitution by Gram O'Cracker The Assassinated Press They hang the man and flog the woman That steal the goose from off the common, But let the greater villain loose That steals the common from the goose. ".....at a time when I am speaking to you about the paradox of desire -- in the sense that different goods obscure it -- you can hear outside the awful language of power. There's no point in asking whether they are sincere or hypocritical, whether they want peace of whether they calculate the risks. The dominating impression as such a moment is that something that may pass for a prescribed good; information addresses and captures impotent crowds to whom it is poured forth like a liquor that leaves them dazed as they move toward the slaughter house. One might even ask if one would allow the cataclysm to occur without first giving free reign to this hubbub of voices...." ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 10:34:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: shanna compton Subject: Audio samples from Saturday's reading Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit For those of you who can't make Saturday's reading at WordsWorth (and thanks for the best wishes!) you can hear two poems each by Gina Meyers and myself on Jim Behrle's blog today. http://monkey.onepotmeal.com/ Direct links to poems: Gina Meyers, poem 1: http://monkey.onepotmeal.com/archives/003841.html Gina Meyers, poem 2: http://monkey.onepotmeal.com/archives/003840.html Shanna Compton, poem 1: http://monkey.onepotmeal.com/archives/003851.html Shanna Compton, poem 2: http://monkey.onepotmeal.com/archives/003852.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 07:38:13 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kazim Ali Subject: Ono Lecture In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii For those who were interesting, there is a CD recording of the Yoko Ono lecture that you can get by contacting the Poetry Project directly. Thanks, Kazim __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 10:56:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Burt Kimmelman Subject: Book Contest, Marsh Hawk Press MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Marsh Hawk Press is sponsoring its first annual book contest. The deadline is April 30, 2004. The prize is $1,000.00 plus publication. = The contest judge will be Marie Ponsot. For all details, please visit the MHP website, which is = www.marshhawkpress.org.=20 Burt Kimmelman ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 09:28:33 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Leslie Scalapino Subject: Brenda Iijima's AROUND SEA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable New from O Books=20 (available from SPD:1341 Seventh St., Berkeley, CA 94710. Or from O = Books: 5729 Clover Drive, Oakland, CA 94618) Brenda Iijima's AROUND SEA is $12.00, ISBN # 1-882022-51-3. Jackson Mac Low says about her book: "Brenda Iijima's AROUND SEA is a = substantial, beautiful, and manifoldly interesting book of poetry. Her = focus shifts smoothly from sonic word-play to informational passages = drawn from natural sciences and even metallurgy to ecology and = passionate urban sociology, and onwards. Her forms often change = radically from one section of a poem to another and her rhythms are = constantly chaning. Readers are happily kept on their toes." Anselm Berrigan says about the book: "Elements, moods, poisons, = obstacles; Brenda Iijima's poems make use of all four, particularly = elements, in forming the core of AROUND SEA. There is a strange, = welcoming warmth to these poems that has nothing to do with forcing a = personscape onto the land (though Iijima is starkly aware of that = force's inexorable severity): 'a terrestrial in the face of extra.' I = feel calm during and after reading AROUND SEA--not abducted, but = included, as if presence could override fate through seeing, and getting = it down onto the page." Fanny Howe says, "A brilliant visual and musical work, where the = techniques of our times are perfected and abandoned one by one. What = goes up, comes down, until the only way out is with it." ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 13:20:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Tills Subject: Re: wanta revolution MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Joel for both good poems, k.e.'s and d.a.'s. :)=20 Steve Tills Microcomputer/Software Specialist MIS Dept.- G.W. Lisk Company, Inc. 315-462-4309 Stills@gwlisk.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 14:05:04 -0500 Reply-To: olsonjk@delhi.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kirby Olson Organization: SUNY Delhi Subject: Re: marriage questions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Tim, maybe you think I said something about gay marriages somewhere. I actually have very little effect on public policy in this country. It's funny to me how everybody wants to get married, and people blame me for not being able to do it. I think this is part of getting older possibly. I'm now blamed for everything. My daughter is 4 and has met this boy named Jeffrey (also 4) at Play School. They want to get married, and she holds me responsible for her perpetual unhappiness in regards to it. I've only questioned whether Jeffrey could support her, but she doesn't really know what this means. She doesn't however appreciate being questioned, and gets rather cross. Did you see the new Edward Albee play? It features a man who has left his wife in order to live with a sheep. He loves the sheep! He wants to marry the sheep! The sheep looked a little noncommittal to my eye, but perhaps it was just being sheepish. At any rate, how do you ascertain consent on the part of a sheep? When I ask these questions people think I am being illiberal again, but I wonder about things like sheep's rights. If the sheep is trembling with love then let the bells ring! In fact, I think everybody should get married! I think doves should marry balloons claiming that their hidden commonality is that they fly, and ants should marry porpoises, citing Lautreamont's sewing machine and umbrella. If they can be together, why not all kinds of passionate combinations? I'm not telling my daughter she can't marry Jeffrey. I've even told her where the courthouse is. I actually encourage her to be as independent as possible, and heck, if she can swing this, I'll throw some rice with the rest of the village. -- Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 13:20:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Annie Finch Subject: "truly free verse" (including spirituality/prosody response) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >Stephen, > >If you study some basic books on traditional prosody (perhaps Paul=20 >Fussell's Poetic Meter and Poetic Form, or, eventually, A Poet's=20 >Craft, the textbook I'm finishing up now for Eighth Mountain Press=20 >which includes fundamentals of prosody) you'll easily come to=20 >understand why the fact that meters can encompass many variations=20 >does not mean that every poem is in meter. > >The fact that the basic accentual-syllabic meters can be varied is=20 >part of their nature. And, as I said in a previous post, there can=20 >be different scansions of the same line and cross-rhythms within=20 >lines, which is why the same line could be scanned as beginning with=20 >two trochees in a trochaic context, and as beginning with a headless=20 >foot and an iamb in an iambic context. In fact, even the same=20 >syllable or monosyllabic word can frequently be scanned as accented=20 >in one metrical context, unaccented in another. Stress is relative,=20 >and meter is very much a matter of context; though there are certain=20 >basic conventions that need to be observed or else a line will sound=20 >unmetrical to anyone who is familiar with prosody, aside from that=20 >there is a lot of freedom and much room for innovation and=20 >individual styles. It is not a uni-textural matter of all or=20 >nothing, with either everything being metrical or nothing, as you=20 >are imagining. I doubt it would have been keeping so many=20 >intelligent poets busy for many centuries if that were the case... > >By the way, it's not just iambic pentameter that can be varied--many=20 >other meters, such as anapests or dactyls, can also encompass=20 >variations and still be considered metrical according to traditional=20 >prosody (though there are some others, such as amphibrachic meter,=20 >hendecasyllabics, or sapphics, that don't really encompass=20 >variations because they are based on specific patterns of feet=20 >rather than on the idea of foot as a template. Tom Cable makes a=20 >useful distinction that applies here, between inductive and=20 >deductive meters (in inductive meters, such as Old English accentual=20 >verse, the metrical pattern is only induced after the fact, while in=20 >deductive meters there is a template that is known in advance and so=20 >can be varied from). Most of these noniambic meters, which have=20 >been ignored for so long, are discussed by various poets in An=20 >Exaltation of Forms (U. of Michigan, 2003), which I co-edited and=20 >which includes essays by several people on this list. > >An example of a free verse poem that avoids meter ? Take your pick.=20 >Poems entirely in meter by poets who don't know they are writing in=20 >meter are pretty rare; that's why I bothered to mention the meter of=20 >Kirby's passage in the first place. Your average free verse poem=20 >nowadays often (and unconsciously, if the many poets I've queried=20 >over the last 15 years or so on this are a representative sample)=20 >slips in a metrical line or two, usually iambic pentameter, and=20 >usually coinciding with the poem's closure, or a particular poignant=20 >effect (there is a long tradition of this practice in free verse=20 >going back at least to whitman; I discuss this tactic as=20 >"metapentameters" in the ghost of meter). > >The fact that these little metrical riffs are clearly evident, and=20 >usually somewhat noteworthy, is evidence in itself that free verse=20 >generally is not in meter, (if you ignore linebreaks entirely, you=20 >can increase the number of metrical passages you find in free verse,=20 >but it's still rare, and ignoring linebreaks is a questionable=20 >practice in free verse since the linebreak is pretty much THE=20 >structuring prosodic characteristic of free verse, as Charles=20 >Hartman's book points out...though I have been guilty of ignoring=20 >them sometimes when I hear a very strong metrical beat cutting over=20 >a linebreak)... If you are used to reading and writing poems in=20 >meter, when you read free verse the metrical passages will jump out=20 >at you as if they were highlighted. > >I was asked in an interview not long ago whether I had found=20 >examples of the "metrical code" (my term for the meanings of the=20 >meaningful metrical passages that occur in some free verse poems) in=20 >experimental verse. My answer was no--it is not nearly as common in=20 >experimental verse as in the mainstream voice poem, and in the=20 >interview I say I presume it's because writers of experimental verse=20 >are more attentive to the sounds of language nowadays and less=20 >likely to let something like that slip in unnoticed. > >It is true, though, that some free verse (e.g. the Whitman-Ginsberg=20 >oral-type tradition) is highly and regularly rhythmic and can be=20 >scanned metrically as often as not, if you don't worry about regular=20 >line-lengths--probably about half of Whitman can be scanned as=20 >phrases in dactylic and iambic rhythms, but the other half of the=20 >phrases are in prose rhythms (i.e., the rhythms of sense and=20 >meaningful phrase as opposed to overarching rhythmic regularity),=20 >and the linebreaks are irregular and the delineations between prose=20 >and metrical rhythms unpredictable, which is why it is still called=20 >free verse, albeit very rhythmical free verse. And then there is=20 >some free verse that is heavily accentual, with a regular beat even=20 >though it is not metrical in terms of syllable patterns--Bishop's=20 >The Moose comes to mind. But these are special cases. Most free=20 >verse of the shorter-line variety is not nearly so ear-driven, but=20 >more eye-driven, and the poets keep ear-rhythms to a minimum,=20 >probably so as not to distract from the meditative experience of the=20 >reader's eye-reading (that's why when some of those poets read the=20 >typical free-verse voice poem aloud it can sound so goofy when they=20 >put those rising-pitch inflections at the end of each line to signal=20 >the line-endings; it is so out of place in a poem that is primarily=20 >NOT about aural rhythmic experience). > >So, digressions over, to answer your question, below are a few=20 >passages of free verse chosen pretty much at random, easily possible=20 >because, as I am trying to explain, most free verse is not in meter.=20 >Presumably that's why it's called free verse, and presumably that's=20 >because Pound's mandate to "break the pentameter" a hundred years=20 >ago succeeded (he never said "break meter" in general, worth=20 >remembering if, as I now do, you prefer to write in=20 >non-iambic-pentameter meters). > >Anyway, here is a passage with lines of roughly equal length that=20 >quite skillfully avoids falling into regular meter. > >From "The Walls Do Not Fall" > >through doors twisted on hinges, >and the lintels slant > >cross-wise; >we walk continually > >on thin air >that thickens to a blind fog, > >then step swiftly aside, >for even the air > >is independable, >thick where it should be fine > >and tenuous >where wings separate and open, > >and the ether >is heavier than the floor, > >and the floor sags >like a ship floundering; > >we know no rule >of procedure, > >we are voyagers, discoverers >of the not-known, > >the unrecorded; >we have no map; > >possibly we will reach haven, >heaven. > >--H.D. > > >While an occasional line here like 'we know no rule" might be=20 >scanned as an iambic dimeter, for example, without any other=20 >metrical context of either the same meter supporting or other meters=20 >interacting with that dimeter, it would probably be a meaningless=20 >exercise to do so....the only part of this poem I would personally=20 >find worth thinking about metrically is perhaps the terminal=20 >couplet, which could be scanned as a single "split" headless iambic=20 >pentameter (another term from ghost of meter), perhaps worth doing=20 >in the interest of understanding the poem, given its meaning and the=20 >history of related connotations of iambic pentameter. But=20 >otherwise, H.D. avoids building metrical contexts here. > >Here's another poem in free verse. The first stanza starts with two=20 >iambic pentameters (initial pentameters, like terminal=20 >pentameters--as in that Olson line--are common in free=20 >verse--Whitman even starts Leaves of Grass with one) and the second=20 >stanza starts with an iambic pentameter with a similar "ok, here I=20 >am being a poet" effect, and the third stanza includes two lines in=20 >iambic pentameter (lines 3 and 4) which do add a chilling power to=20 >the rape. The poem is using the connotations of the meter for=20 >expressive purpose in those 5 lines (and in the last two lines,=20 >which together, if you ignore the line breaks, make an emphatic=20 >iambic pentameter). You might point out, since you are thinking=20 >that all free verse is metrical, that aside from the pentameters,=20 >there are a few other lines in this poem that could be heard as=20 >trochaic tetrameter or iambic tetrameter, but they're in a pattern=20 >so random that I personally wouldn't have the patience to tease out=20 >the patterns, as I explain further below. So, just because the poem=20 >includes several lines that could be scanned metrically, I would not=20 >call it a metrical poem: > >A Case in Point > >A friend of mine who raised six daughters and >who never wrote what she regards as serious >until she >was fifty-three >tells me there is no silence peculiar >to the female > >I have decided I have something to say >about female silence: so to speak >these are my 2 cents on the subject: >2 weeks ago I was raped for the second >time in my life the first occasion >being a whiteman and the most recent >situation being a blackman actually >head of the local NAACP > >Today is 2 weeks after the fact of that man straddling >his knees either side of my chest >his hairy arm and powerful left hand >forcing my arms and my hands over my head >flat to the pillow while he rammed >what he described as his quote big dick >unquote into my mouth >and shouted out: "D'ya want to swallow >my big dick; well, doya?" > >He was being rhetorical. >my silence was peculiar >to the female. > >-June Jordan > > > >Aside from those pentameters I mentioned, most of the lines do not=20 >sound metrical to me at all. The fifth line of the first stanza,=20 >for example, though it is 11 syllables long, is not an iambic=20 >pentameter and couldn't be scanned as one; your ear can just tell=20 >you this, but if you want analysis, on reflection it turns out it's=20 >because it would have trochees in the second and the fifth foot not=20 >after caesuras, breaking the fundamental convention about trochees=20 >discovered by Halle and Keyser. The line after it might=20 >theoretically be a trochaic dimeter, but that would be kind of silly=20 >to even think about, unless you were reading it in the context of a=20 >trochaic poem, and even in that context it would be really pushing=20 >it, since "to the" would be a very lame trochee to start a line=20 >with. And in the next stanza, for example, you could maybe read the=20 >second line as an iambic tetrameter with an anapestic variation in=20 >the first foot, but what is the motivation to do so? The line=20 >after it switches again, to a trochaic beat, and with no line=20 >following it, there's no momentum, no groove, no impetus. And this=20 >is a good thing. Jordan's poem is a better free verse poem because=20 >it does NOT slip into metrical grooves for no reason, but saves them=20 >for those expressive iambic pentameters. > >The bottom line is that, again, meter is subtle enough that it needs=20 >to occur in context (though certain very evocative meters seem to be=20 >strong enough to stand on their own in free verse, one line or=20 >phrase at a time, which is what the book ghost of meter is about).=20 >It takes effort and energy to read words as metrical, and in my=20 >ear-world, there is no motivation to make the effort it requires to=20 >hear a metrical pattern and the variations against it, unless I have=20 >a context that makes that not only clearly possible but enjoyable.=20 >After all, the point of metrical poetry is physical pleasure (that's=20 >the real reason it makes sense in pagan spiritual context, to=20 >answer, belatedly, Kirby's question). Why bother to do all that=20 >work just for one line, with no building rhythmic energy? That's=20 >why I prefer, as a rule, free verse that avoids any obvious meter=20 >altogether. I don't want to get my metrical juices flowing for no=20 >reason, just for what turns out to be a random experience, just to=20 >be let down in the end. Much better to just read it as free verse,=20 >as phrasal prose rhythms emphasized by line breaks, except for those=20 >iambic pentameters that hit you over the head. MOST poems in free=20 >verse are not metrical except in this occasional expressive sense.=20 >And many of the best have no metrical passages at all.. > >So, to sum up, though some free verse does slip in and out of meter=20 >like the Jordan poem (this poem does this much more than the H.D.=20 >passage, so I include it to test the answer to your query a bit=20 >further) , I wouldn't call a poem metrical unless it were structured=20 >by meter: unless it were all in a meter, or all in a combination of=20 >meters, like Robert Hayden's These Winter Sundays, which combines=20 >iambic pentameter and tetrameter but is all metrical. > >For what it's worth, Stephen, if you studied just a bit, you'd be=20 >able to hear when something is in meter or not and which meter or=20 >kind of meter it's in. It might take a month of effort. A lot less=20 >time than it's taking me to learn to play the guitar. And=20 >practically less than it's taken me to write this email! > >I heard Charles give a paper on a panel on prosody at MLA a couple=20 >of years ago and found it very general; I'll be interested to see=20 >what he publishes that goes into prosodic issues more specifically. > >Oh, very interesting what you say about Olson and Milton. . the old=20 >methinks-me-poet -doth -protest- too-much dynamic? > > >Annie > > >___________________________________ >Annie Finch >http://www.users.muohio.edu/finchar >English Department, Miami University, Ohio > > >Care2 make the world greener! >Help the planet each day! It's free and easy: >http://www.Care2.com/ > ----------------------------------------------- Glen Brand Midwest Representative Sierra Club 309 Ludlow Ave. Suite 30 Cincinnati, OH 45220 PH: 513-861-4001 =46AX: 513-861-0162 EMAIL: glen.brand@sierraclub.org WEB: www.sierraclub.org/epec/cincy/ ><((((=BA>`=B7.=B8=B8.=B7=B4=AF`=B7...=B8><((((=BA>=B8..=B7=B4=AF`=B7.=B8=B8= ><((((=BA>`=B7.=B8=B8.=B7=B4=AF`=B7...=B8><((((=BA> ___________________________________ Annie Finch http://www.users.muohio.edu/finchar English Department, Miami University, Ohio Care2 make the world greener! Help the planet each day! It's free and easy: http://www.Care2.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 14:19:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: prayer to lord god highest MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII prayer to lord god highest amen amen amen amen amen amen amen amen amen amen amen amen amen amen amen beaut+ beaut+ beaut+ beaut+ beaut+ beaut+ beaut+ beaut+ beaut+ beaut+ beaut+ beaut+ beauty beauty beauty glor+ glor+ glor+ glor+ glor+ glor+ glor+ glor+ glor+ glor+ glor+ glor+ glory glory glory haLYLejula haLYLejula haLYLejula haLYLejula haLYLejula haLYLejula haLYLejula haLYLejula haLYLejula haLYLejula haLYLejula haLYLejula hallejula hallejula hallejula hohzanna hohzanna hohzanna hohzanna hohzanna hohzanna hohzanna hohzanna hohzanna hohzanna hohzanna hohzanna hol+ hol+ hol+ hol+ hol+ hol+ hol+ hol+ hol+ hol+ hol+ hol+ holy holy holy hosanna hosanna hosanna on Pe hyghehzt on Pe hyghehzt on Pe hyghehzt on Pe hyghehzt on Pe hyghehzt on Pe hyghehzt on Pe hyghehzt on Pe hyghehzt on Pe hyghehzt on Pe hyghehzt on Pe hyghehzt on Pe hyghehzt on h= thrhyr01 on h= thrhyr01 on h= thrhyr01 on h= thrhyr01 on h= thrhyr01 on h= thrhyr01 on h= thrhyrSYErate1 on h= thrhyrSYErate1 on h= thrhyrSYErate1 on h= thrhyrhZYErate1 on h= thrhyrhZYErate1 on h= thrhyrhZYErate1 on his throne on his throne on his throne on the highest on the highest on the highest wonder wonder wonder wondyr wyn -YNondyr wyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNondyr wyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr __ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 14:06:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Annie Finch Subject: Re: marriage questions Comments: To: olsonjk@delhi.edu In-Reply-To: <40195960.CA2E9F44@delhi.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" They want to get married, and she holds me responsible for her perpetual unhappiness in regards to it. I've only questioned whether Jeffrey could support her... ????HUH?? Annie-with-the-hair-that-sometimes-looks-short-when-I-wear-it-up-which -apparently-makes-me-understandable-as-a-feminist-in-Kirby's-eyes-but- apparently-not-enough-so-to-make-him-think-twice-before-posting-this-r espulsively-sexist-assumption-about-marriage-to-a-list-including-many- feminists-of-both-genders. PS Seriously, Kirby, now I've finally got to say something. I hope you open your mind about this issue before your daughter gets any older. Do you honestly think you could raise a healthy and happy girl in this culture today on the assumption that marrying implies that she will be supported? (or a happy and healthy boy with the reverse assumption?) Whether or not that ends up being the case, to raise her expecting it sounds like a recipe for a definitely miserable young womanhood followed by a probably miserable marriage. Annie, very happily married and not at all supported ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 15:12:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Shoemaker Subject: work/play habits In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Kirby has recently argued for the importance of a good work ethic. I might argue instead that the "work ethic" is something of a pathology in this country, as well as a nice political instrument for keeping everyone too busy to cause any trouble. Nevertheless, I *am* interesting in how people manage to get specifically poetic work done, and I don't think I've ever seen a thread quite like that in all the time of been on the list. I'm not talking about poetic methods, which have been discussed from time to time, but about exactly how and when the work gets done. Do you get up early in the morning? Stay up late at night? Write during your lunch hour? "Steal" time while you're supposed to be doing other things at the office? Do you rely on bursts of inspiration, or set aside regular hours? Are regular hours necessary in order to prepare for (eventual) bursts of inspiration? I'd be especially interested in hearing how people manage to find time for poetic work in the face of other obligations like teaching or other wage-earning work, child care responsibilities, and so on. Do you try to "block out" other "distractions," or do you try to integrate poetry with other sorts of life activities? Lastly, do you actually think of poetry as work, or is play a better term? Or is the distinction an unnecessary one? Steve ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 12:22:09 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: NY reading Comments: To: poetryetc@jiscmail.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Adeena Karasick & Mark Weiss, St. Mark's Church, Wednesday Feb. 4th at 8 pm. I hope to see you there. Mark Weiss ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 16:07:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetry Project Subject: Events at the Poetry Project 2/2-2/4 Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable =B3Before I was alive/ I were a long, dark, continent=B2 Happy February...! Monday, February 2 Open Reading 8:00 p.m. Sign-up at 7:45 pm =20 Wednesday, February 4 Adeena Karasick & Mark Weiss Adeena Karasick is a poet, cultural theorist and video/performance artist who has published five books of poetry and poetic theory: The Arugula Fugue= s (Zasterle Press, 2001), Dyssemia Sleaze (Talonbooks, 2000), Genrecide (Talonbooks, 1996), M=EAmewars (Talonbooks, 1994), and The Empress Has No Closure (Talonbooks, 1992). The House That Hijack Built is forthcoming this summer, also from Talonbooks. Dedicated to the interplay of conflictual dialects, aesthetics, and textures that impact on the construction of feminist and cultural identity, Karasick=B9s articles, reviews and dialogues on contemporary poetry, poetics and cultural/semiotic theory have been published worldwide. She is Professor of Poetry and Cultural Theory at St. John=B9s University. Mark Weiss has published two collections of poetry, Intimate Wilderness (New Rivers Press, 1976) and Fieldnotes (Junction Press= , 1995), as well as the chapbooks A Letter to Maxine (Heron Press, 1974), A Block-Print by Kuniyoshi (Four Zoas/Nighthouse Press, 1994), and Figures: 3= 2 Poems (Chax Press, 2001). With Harry Polkinhorn, he co-edited the anthology Across the Line / Al otro lado (Junction Press, 2002). Weiss is the editor and translator of four forthcoming books: The Whole Island/La isla en peso: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry, and the bilingual collections Stet: Selected Poems of Jos=E9 Kozer, Selected Poems of Gast=F3n Baquero, and Selected Poems o= f Ra=FAl Hern=E1ndez Nov=E1s. He has been a director of the West End Bar reading series and a co-director of the series at the Ear Inn, and has taught writing and literature at Columbia University, Hunter College, Pima College= , the University of Arizona, and the University of California at San Diego. A New Yorker by birth and inclination, he currently lives in San Diego, where he publishes Junction Press and buys and sells fine art. * *NEWS* The Poetry Project can now accept credit card payments! Now you can purchase workshop registration, pay for membership and Newsletter subscriptions, give insanely generous donations, or order books, all online= . This new technology is all possible via PayPal: http://www.paypal.com. Just enter our email address to send money: info@poetryproject.com. * The Poetry Project is located at St. Mark's Church-in-the-Bowery 131 East 10th Street at Second Avenue New York City 10003 Trains: 6, F, N, R, and L. info@poetryproject.com www.poetryproject.com Admission is $8, $7 for students/seniors and $5 for members (though now those who take out a membership at $85 or higher will get in free to all regular readings). We are wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. For more info call 212-674-0910. * ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 17:32:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Tills Subject: Re: work/play habits MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In response to Steven Shoemaker's comments re: work,=20 some sloggin from last night's bloggin/writin/funnin: Following Baktin's idea of the dialogic and the argument=20 (perhaps even the fact) that all words or utterances are=20 directed toward an answer, a response, including poetic=20 words, poems, and poetries, it is reasonable, in my=20 opinion, to level a small, partial (however irrelevant,=20 often, and even more often, no doubt, petty) verdict=20 of Egotism and Agenda on many poetries otherwise=20 claiming the status of the divine by virtue of their being=20 "purely formal." For the purely formal seeks a response,=20 too, usually recognition. It wants to garner praise like=20 "finest ear since Smith or Creeley or Williams or=20 Zukofsky or Pound." It wants to declare itself the victor=20 over Form 1A Past, Ideology 2B Present, or School=20 of Newest Aesthetic 3C Future and other ghosts of a=20 chance chants taking chances with Chancey or was it=20 Clancy who couldn't really sing? It wants to establish=20 itself as the most able researcher in the discipline and=20 therefore most worthy of the private and/or state grant=20 monies (regardless whether it has actually discovered=20 anything of worth, practical application, or sustenance). =20 It wants, it craves, it demands, it extorts; it both pines for=20 and bargains for; it argues for and it beseeches "an other"=20 subjectivity external to itself as object as well as process. =20 In brief, it does NOT operate solely as an end in itself, and=20 it seeks the same ole same ole same ole redundant binky of=20 existential illusions, Immortality. Whereas instead it could seek . . . just about anything else? =20 If only it will indulge in . . . WHAT? Meaning's not such a=20 terrible thing, albeit some will insist righteously and maybe=20 rightfully that it's not such a terrible thing to waste. Thousands=20 of perfectly polite and neighborly and selfless trees ARE=20 slaughtered every year just so that reams and reams and=20 reamings of cubicle generated bureaucratic corporate culture=20 paranoia and several volumes of passionately useless architectural=20 blueprints can pile up in warehouses occupying spaces some=20 years ago inhabited by the planet's next generation of extinct species. Yet man does not live by form alone. Woman cannot sustain=20 herselves on a strict diet of content. No self-respecting Queers=20 would force-feed themselves the neo-evangelical creed of New=20 Formalism and still call themselves artists, much less interior=20 decorators and hair stylists made for the celluloid tube. And=20 what happens in this world constructed by this particular(ly)=20 representational verbiage to a white guy if, goad forbade,=20 alienated by racists, bigots, homophobes, feminists, gays,=20 the rich, the poor, the illiterate, the tenured in the 80's, the=20 French, the American, the Indonesian, the Left Over, the=20 young, the digital, the urban, the rural, the thin, the ugly,=20 the tucked, the black, the blue, the red-skinned albino,=20 the every conceivable group, minority, or majority alike? =20 Well naturally at least one subjectivity he carries around=20 with his body, even if that subjectivity is a non-essential=20 reproduction of other laboriously alienated subjectivities,=20 would probably feel compelled to get out of a Dodge=20 Caravan digestive tract pre-Caxton a wee bit of content=20 no Structure of form save perhaps bricolage might permit.=20 =20 Know matters how tantalizingly totalizing they be. Admit it! We're all parental and we're all childish. =20 Even in Mexico, at some time or another, each smile=20 is blather to the flan. Or a little while. Whatever, Amigo,=20 'cause we're just looking for a dope fiend if we haven't=20 already found one, and if we have, then we're looking=20 for some other so-called "natural" high. Books are people,=20 too. Maybe it's true that you can tune aporia, but you=20 can't hide a Lettrist between comment tags in a java script=20 without defeating the purpose. Which is behind Door=20 Number 1 if you go to Stanford and study under Adrienne=20 Rich, which is behind Door Number 2 if you study yer=20 Standard and Poors and beat the yoyo's bashing and=20 pumping like shameless Banshee shills for a softcover=20 hardpriced mantra of Efficient Market Hypotheses,=20 which is behind Door Number 3 if you study on the=20 mean streets, too? Sure Lacan had a Penis brain, but=20 did he inherit it or was it manmade? Self-exculpatory. =20 What a piece of work "the Work" is, so we call his or=20 her writing "work," when really it's his or her play and=20 recreation and spiritual pursuit. Work is what he or she=20 does on the clock of alienated labor and permanently=20 lost life (though try convincing a Buddhist of that screed,=20 Angry Old Man), regardless the toil committed. But=20 everything's his or her "work." Ya gotta love it when=20 ya hear the actors and directors talk about theirs, ditto=20 the newscasters. Ditto the politicians, now, too. Or=20 ya gotta hate it. Yes, it's an either/or interpellation, and=20 a sign of an insignificant time. Chime. Rhyme. Saw that=20 coming, or heard it, huh? You wreak English rarely swell. =20 Which could be racist, depending how I read it or where=20 I leave it, what context and who wrote it, whether it's=20 forgiven or whether it's unconscious. Speaking of Kirby=20 Olson, but now that's even nastier, 'cause frankly it's=20 just plain unnecessary, and second you just cannot=20 know, and moreover what's that use? Not to mind,=20 so I should throw the reference out, the baby and the=20 bathwater. Again, some same difference. I mean the=20 meanness, the potential cruelty, the acerbic twitch, I=20 meant stretch. I meant that it's always a stretch to=20 imagine anybody is going to read anything one writes=20 as closely as one was when it was written. Or read it=20 at all, so why not write it any way, anyhow? How=20 pluralistic of you, Mother Superior! =20 Though it's all true, isn't it, all the heavy duty morality=20 that literature is supposed to teach but evidently=20 doesn't -- just look at the tenured exploiting the adjuncts,=20 bad as India -- so it's moved to the theorists and=20 "action" (i.e., teaching, what, as always, the really=20 good ones do, whether they're writing or reading, same dif). Steve Tills Microcomputer/Software Specialist MIS Dept.- G.W. Lisk Company, Inc. 315-462-4309 Stills@gwlisk.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 07:58:23 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: furniture_ press Subject: Re: Ono Lecture Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 am i interesting? i mean, was i interesting? chris > For those who were interesting, there is a CD > recording of the Yoko Ono lecture that you can get by > contacting the Poetry Project directly. > > Thanks, > Kazim > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! > http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ -- _______________________________________________ Graffiti.net free e-mail @ www.graffiti.net Check out our value-added Premium features, such as an extra 20MB for just US$9.95 per year! Powered by Outblaze ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 17:23:02 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: roseisarose Subject: spare room presents nine muses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Spare Room presents Nine Muses Reading and Publication Party: Joseph Keppler, Ezra Mark, Dan Raphael, and mrgareta waterman Sunday, February 1, 7:30 pm Mountain Writers Center, 3624 SE Milwaukie Ave. $5 suggested donation www.flim.com/spareroom Dial-a-Poem: 503-236-0867 (see schedule of future readings at end of this message) Nine Muses Books has been publishing distinguished poets since 1987. A=20 mini-tour of Northwest cities celebrating four new books by Northwest=20 poets will conclude with a reading for the Spare Room Series at the=20 Mountain Writers Center on February 1, 2004. Joseph Keppler and Ezra Mark live in Seattle; Dan Raphael lives in=20 Portland; and margareta waterman divides her time between Washington=20 and Oregon (when not on the road). All four are well known and = appreciated=20 by poetry audiences in various locales; while very different in style,=20 their common ground is a larger view than ordinary thinking usually=20 allows for. Upcoming readings: February 22: Elizabeth Robinson & Maryrose Larkin March 14: Nico Vassilakis & Robert Mittenthal April 11: Leonard Schwartz, Zhang Er, & Joseph Bradshaw May 16: Catherine Daly & Chris Piuma All readings on Sundays at 7:30 pm Mountain Writers Center, 3624 SE Milwaukie Ave. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 21:35:58 -0500 Reply-To: ron.silliman@gte.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Subject: Re: NY Times Book Review to get a make-over Comments: To: Bob Grumman In-Reply-To: <20040129235050.92561.qmail@web21602.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit That's the logic that got us Ronald Reagan once -- I ain't buyin' any -- but, hey, thanks for the compliment, Ron -----Original Message----- From: Bob Grumman [mailto:comprepoetica@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 6:51 PM To: ron.silliman@gte.net Subject: Re: NY Times Book Review to get a make-over --- Ron wrote: > Can the NY Times Book Review get any worse? They're > gonna try, > > Ron I've decided I'm all in favor of what the Times Book Review is doing. Why? Because the worse it and its imitators become, the sooner intelligent readers will search out and find literary discussions of value on the Internet--like Ron's. --Bob G. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 18:36:28 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: alexander saliby Subject: Fw: scansion and/as religion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kirby, I did intend to send this to the list...it's just I'm fundamentally = (that's not the extreme right) inept when it comes to pushing the right = buttons or clicking on the right icon. Alex=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Kirby Olson=20 To: alexander saliby=20 Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 9:40 AM Subject: Re: scansion and/as religion Alexander, did you mean to post this to the list? Yes, after I had my = daughter my whole viewpoint changed. I used to believe in anarchism and = postmodernism. I became a Lutheran only at her baptism. Hoping to heck = that God would help me protect her! And I shifted to the right slowly = only because of her. I am somewhere between Kerry and Bush. I don't = know which one of them will make life worse for my daughter. Good = points, and funny history. Why not post it to the board?=20 -- Kirby=20 alexander saliby wrote:=20 Kirby,We share a great many prejudices I see...I share completely the = views espoused here by you. But there's more. I'm now 64 and have = evolved to these views. Let's look at the comments I might have made at = different times in my life: At 17, from my basement hole on McDougal St. = in Greenwich Village, I'd have replied something like, "Yeah, that's = because you're an old and worn out creep incapable of getting it up as = often as you'd like and you just want all the rest of the world to = suffer your same inadequacies. " At 23, from my classroom where I was = teaching 9th grade English Composition and 11th Grade American Lit, = I'd have taken a slightly different stance, wondering why you seemed to = be so much against the idea of free love and fucking your students as a = means of helping them grow to enjoy the physical pleasures of a rich and = varied sex life, particularly the 17 and 18 year old young ladies who = seemed so to be in need of attention (and of course, twas I who needed = the attention, not the innocent young ladies). At 33, from my office on = the 7th floor of an Atlanta business complex, I had begun to soften my = stance and adjust my views...I had kids in school, a mortgage, two = automobiles and the car payments required to support the vehicle's = loans, a dog, a cat, three kids and a house in the suburbs that was = sinking under a mortgage I could barely meet monthly along with all my = other expenses. But, I kept my nose to the grindstone. I put my head = down, grabbed the ball and took off for the goal-line, without shoulder = pads, or a cup protector. And I would have shot cold dead any bastard = English or other teacher who pretended to be "teaching" my kids but was = really just out to fuck my now 16 year old step-daughter. At 53, from = the deck of my retirement home, children all grown and out of the house, = but with Gkids swarming through my living room at regular intervals, I = take yet a different view. I know this: nobody, no family member, no = society, no city, state or Federal agency gave me one penny. I = borrowed, but I paid it all back, mind you; I worked, I had help from a = working spouse, and together, we struggled, doing without a great many = luxuries during the early years of our marriage. And at the end, we had = sent three off into the world to make their own way, and they all three = seemed to still care about us. And none of the three, at least at this = writing, sucks the public tit, neither are they wealthy. They work; = they struggle to raise their families, pay their taxes, and hold their = own in the day to day drudgery of living. At 64, still in the same = retirement home, though it has been remodeled, I marvel at the ability = of the young to tolerate the condescending tones of their elders. And I = delight in the fact that my grandchildren flip the finger to the = horseshit they hear broadcast on the network news, and I say nothing to = them, but I think...you're right, kids, they're feeding you the = storyline bullshit...go get 'em! I have in fact come full circle...in my = youth I embraced anarchy; I moved toward socialism; branched out to = become a full-blown communist, shifted to the ranks of a social = democrat, meandered into Republicanism and the near right wing, teetered = back to the left, and at the moment, I embrace the road of = middleoftheroadism, if there is such a disease. Funny, isn't it, how as = one ages ones values drift to a place far less self-gratifying and = filled with broader, more humanistic concerns. At 18, I really didn't = give a good god-damned who I had to abuse, misuse or fuck over in order = to get what I wanted...and I wanted everything, mostly because I had = begun with nothing. I now own stuff I don't want to lose, most of them = humans. Sorry for the long-winded comment, but I felt you were a tad off = target in that you weren't coming to grips in your own right of changes = through which I know you too have gone...and will continue to undergo. = Tell me, how old are your children? Are they daughters? One feels = differently toward the world when one looks at his daughter (or = step-daughter, as it was in my case). Some how, I knew the two boys = could handle things; I was never so sure about the young lady. Turns = out, she was the strongest of the three...but who knew that when she was = nine?Alex=20 ----- Original Message ----- From: Kirby Olson To: = POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2004 10:56 AM Subject: Re: scansion and/as religion Hi Tim, thanks for your post yesterday.=20 All I'm saying is that people have to pull their own weight. I'm = going to try=20 and make this clear why I think this should be so.=20 I put myself through college working as a waiter in the Pocono = Mountains of=20 Pennsylvania, loading boxes into trucks in the summers, working at = places like=20 Kentucky Fried Chicken for years to save up for college. I was = accepted at=20 Harvard, Bennington, and places like that, but simply couldn't = afford the=20 tuition. So I went to Evergreen State College in Olympia, = Washington. After=20 college, I worked for many years as a secretary and a waiter, = continuing my=20 education in night school at Seattle Community College, and other = continuing=20 education programs at the U. of Washington. At the same time, I = started=20 writing for a variety of national journals. I didn't have any help = from=20 anybody -- and am glad about it. It taught me to pull my own = weight.=20 I think that self-discipline is what college, and life, is about. = If you can=20 develop that, you can succeed.=20 Work ethic. I thought Weber was right on the money in his = Protestant Work=20 Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism.=20 There's another aspect to survival: create a decent family, and = stick with it=20 through thick and thin.=20 Instead of these two modes, I see many of my academic friends = arguing that the=20 underclass deserves a handout, and that the sexual life of a married = couple is=20 insufficient, and people should have many many partners in their = lives (they=20 give freshman students Bataille and Foucault, for instance).=20 I sometimes wonder to myself if the academic elite isn't a kind of = torpedo that=20 has been sent to destroy the poorest classes.=20 The only thing anybody will ever get for sure is from the sweat of = their brow.=20 I think everybody who succeeds at anything knows this. So to tell = other people=20 you deserve a handout (rather than you must work like hell to get = anything),=20 seems to me to be a disservice.=20 Secondly, to be waving Foucault at the underclass who do make it to = college=20 seems to argue for promiscuity and a lack of self-discipline that is = the last=20 thing that the underclass can afford.=20 This is a one-two punch (Marx-Freud) that I think may destroy any = chance a poor=20 person has of achieving a decent life. Foucault, Marx, and Freud = all had a=20 tremendous work ethic, but they seem to argue that this is not the = way to get=20 ahead.=20 I'd like to think about self-discipline in family and in work = ethics.=20 I agree that there are a lot of poor people, and that people don't = all start at=20 the starting line at the same place. But rather than asking people = to spend=20 all their time arguing for handouts, what I tell my students at = least is that=20 they must work like crazy to get anywhere, and they are going to be = better off=20 if they stick with the straight and narrow.=20 It may be that some poets like Rilke have written masterpieces in = three days.=20 At some point I believe that they spent years mastering their art. = Maybe I'm a=20 complete idiot, but I don't think anything worth having comes for = free. Some=20 are more talented than others, but without a work ethic, those = talents will not=20 come to much. So I think that's what we should be teaching -- not = resentment,=20 but work ethic, and self-discipline.=20 The super-rich and the super-talented can get by without those = qualities.=20 Everybody else would probably be better off to learn them. I'm not = sure what's=20 objectionable about this message.=20 -- Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 23:50:42 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: tom bell Subject: flag again MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0129-09.htm tom bell '^-_'^-_'^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^'""-------^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Visiting poet at The VA TENNESSEE VALLEY HEALTH CARE SYSTEM ALVIN C. YORK CAMPUS Columnist for MAG http://www.muse-apprentice-guild.com/ Some not right for Hallmark poetry available through geezer.com http://www.geezer.com/vendor.html?vendorID=2203&psid=dceaec145a83fbd666061e3 9c05fdadd Section editor for PsyBC www.psybc.com http://www.metaphormetonym.com/ Write for the Health of It course at http://www.suite101.com/course.cfm/17413/seminar http://www.suite101.com/course.cfm/17413/overview/37900 not yet a crazy old man hard but not yet hardening of the art ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 07:08:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: Boog City presents: Chax Press and The Drew Gardner Flash Orchestra, Thursday Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Please forward ------ Boog City presents d.a. levy lives: celebrating the renegade press in america This month=B9s featured press: Chax Press (Tucson, Arizona) Thurs. Feb. 5, 6 p.m., free Aca Galleries 529 W.20th St., 5th Flr. NYC Event will be hosted by Chax Press publisher and editor Charles Alexander Featuring readings from: Charles Alexander=20 Charles Bernstein=20 Allison Cobb Eli Goldblatt=20 Hank Lazer=20 Jackson Mac Low Bob Perelman=20 Tim Peterson=20 Nick Piombino=20 Heather Thomas Mark Weiss =20 With music from The Drew Gardner Flash Orchestra, an improvised orchestra based on a flash mob, where people gather to do an instant performance in public, and then disperse quickly. It should feature tenor sax, electric guitar, electric bass, percussion, flute, voice, alto sax, sampler, accordion, and viola. There will be wine, cheese, and fruit, too. Curated and with an introduction by Boog City editor David Kirschenbaum Directions: C/E to 23rd St., 1/9 to 18th St. Venue is bet. 10th and 11th avenues http://www.chax.org/ Next month: Carve magazine (Cambridge, Mass.), March 4 -- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 www.boogcity.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 04:42:47 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lewis LaCook Subject: from Women Comments: cc: jen berry , Ron Conn , cyberculture , Kathryn Dean-Dielman , karen stoic lemley , underground poetry , naked readings , Renee , rhizome , webartery , wryting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Someone had named her Mariana. Pidgin is elastically passed around with some enthusiasm, still suffused with unusual laities. Pills imbrobably beckon. "I would want to live in vivid nicks awash on your knees, sour but still robust." Auch Brain Drain. Some pale days of never sleeping. Pelted with levitation. "A freezing rain will eat the roads. Pounded by dead ivy faces scabbing over with rude glaciers. Some soldiers home from the war. It's very hard to walk in." But approaching Oberlin Avenue from North Ridge road, nearing the cemetary. Blue tunnel, tongue of road. Blue nights with flurries of stars. Mike's car when we go outside skinned with ice gleams the way trains moan in a distance cold with Ohio. German chocolate cake punctured by my mouth a hole of hungry filling. Beats pulse from the subwoofers, lacing Matt's house with heartbeats. Later Evelyn comes home. I stand pertinently still among the rough and dirty boys of Lorain. Each of us is a roofer, or builds cars in a factory. Our trucks roar that we are hard. You, as far away as you always were, don't respond when I cry out in the small hours of night. I often wake up long after my body has made coffee and opened a mute window. The silence then mentions trills as so many recursive curls in verbs. You let the city go to your head. "I have some friends to whom narrative is an intractable essence. It may be that message and source are the same thing, as well as act and potential. Woof, woof,woof." ===== This is as useful as a doll.--Gertrude Stein Poem of the Day: http://www.lewislacook.com/POD associate editor, _sidereality http://www.sidereality.com/ -------- http://www.lewislacook.com/ tubulence artist studio: http://turbulence.org/studios/lacook/index.html __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 09:21:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: sylvester pollet Subject: National Poetry Foundation Conference Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" I have the conference registration forms--if you e-mail me (backchannel) I will send one as an attached file, pdf & Word. You can find a description of the conference & some of the confirmed participants on the NPF website . I'll put the registration form on there too, asap. Hope to see you in Orono! poetries of the 1940s, american and international june 23 - june 27, 2004 The National Poetry Foundation / University of Maine / 5752 Neville Hall, Room 400/ Orono, Maine 04469-5752 / Tel. (207) 581-3813 / Fax (207) 581-3886 Conference Registration Form ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 10:38:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: shanna compton Subject: Soft Skull News Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sorry for the length of this post, but I'm feeling mighty proud of our little press at the moment...you all might be particularly interested in Daphne Gottlieb's Lambda nomination for best lesbian poetry and our forthcoming book of poetry comics by Kenneth Koch. Shanna ----------------- But before we start, we're happy to announce that you can once again buy books direct from www.softskull.com, and often before they become available in stores or on other online retailers (you still have the option of clicking through to Amazon, Powells or Booksense.com). Clicking on the links below will take you straight to the book's webpage. 1. Daphne Gottlieb's FINAL GIRL http://www.softskull.com/detailedbook.php?isbn=1-887128-97-2 has been nominated for a Lambda Book Award for Best Lesbian Poetry! This follows superb reviews everywhere, from Publishers Weekly to Bitch Magazine to the San Francisco Chronicle. 2. Matthew Sharpe's The Sleeping Father http://www.softskull.com/detailedbook.php?isbn=1-932360-00-X has now appeared in the New York Times Book Review's "And Bear In Mind" (the editor's choices) for an unprecedented fourth time. "A rare find: an ironist who actually seems to like other people." 3. Brian Gage's and Kathryn Otoshi's The Saddest Little Robot http://www.softskull.com/detailedbook.php?isbn=1-932360-05-0 has been selected for the Booksense 76 Children's Winter 2003/2004 list. In addition to this award it has been featured in the Boston Globe and the liberal Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz, along with two other forthcoming titles from our new children's book imprint Red Rattle Books: Hey Kidz, Buy This Book! http://www.softskull.com/detailedbook.php?isbn=1-932360-35-2 and Bend Don't Shatter http://www.softskull.com/detailedbook.php?isbn=1-932360-17-4 4. Soft Skull's been heavily covered in the industry newspapers recently. In the past two months Publishers Weekly has covered Soft Skull prominently, and just last week the Canadian publishing magazine Quill and Quire also did a feature story on Soft Skull, calling us "one of the most visible and respected alternative house in the U.S., Soft Skull [is] like Grove Press in the 1950's and 1960's." Below are excerpts: On Soft Skull's How to Get Stupid White Men Out of Office http://www.softskull.com/detailedbook.php?isbn=1-932360-08-5 "In a publishing experiment that may help their titles stand out this spring, two small presses distributed by PGW are joining forces with like-minded political organizations to publicize and market "political self-help" books that have hefty first printings. In March, Soft Skull Press will publish How to Get Stupid White Men Out of Office ($12.95), a collection of political success stories that doubles as a guide to "throwing the bums out" in 2004. Slated for a 60,000-copy first printing, the trade paperback is edited by political activist William Upski Wimsatt, whose previous paperback originals Bomb the Suburbs (2001) http://www.softskull.com/detailedbook.php?isbn=1-887128-44-5 and No More Prisons (1999) http://www.softskull.com/detailedbook.php?isbn=1-887128-42-5 have together sold more than 100,000 copies for the 10-year-old Brooklyn, N.Y., press. The contributing writers are members of the League of Independent Voters, which helps develop coalitions of gay, punk, black, Latino and young people around the country To promote the book, Soft Skull will distribute 20,000 free copies to youth-oriented nonprofit groups, after-school programs and political organizations. The press will also give out books at more than a dozen conferences and conventions across the country...." Publishers Weekly, Jan 19, 2004 Soft Skull Graphic Novels: Smart, Visionary Books "While large book publishers such as Doubleday, Random House and HarperCollins have been getting into graphic novels with mixed success, smaller publishing houses are also dipping their toes into the comics pool. One of them is Brooklyn's Soft Skull Press, best known for publishing works from New York's cultural underground and for politically provocative titles, such as the controversial reprint of the George W. Bush bio Fortunate Son http://www.softskull.com/detailedbook.php?isbn=1-887128-84-0. The 10-year-old publisher has had a hit with Get Your War On by David Rees http://www.softskull.com/detailedbook.php?isbn=1-887128-76-X, which has more than 30,000 copies in print. Using clip art featuring banal office workers, Rees has been skewering the war and right-wing politicians in a series of brutally funny conversations. The strip started as an e-mail and became a water-cooler phenomenon following 9/11....Soft Skull also publishes underground artists associated with the political comics anthology World War III, such as Seth Tobocman (Portraits of Israelis and Palestinians http://www.softskull.com/detailedbook.php?isbn=1-887128-83-2) and Fly (Peops: Portraits and Stories http://www.softskull.com/detailedbook.php?isbn=1-887128-82-4). Other Soft Skull graphic novels include Nate Powell's Tiny Giants http://www.softskull.com/detailedbook.php?isbn=1-887128-56-5, an impressionistic account of growing up. While Soft Skull is expanding overall from 32 books this year to 45 next, Nash hopes to publish three to six graphic novels a year. He sees comics as being squarely in the subversive mode that the house specializes in. "There is a void right now [in challenging 'official' opinion], and comics and cartoon artists seem to be filling the breach. It is very much a part of Soft Skull's agenda to assist artists who are looking to really communicate about society," he noted. "By publishing graphic novels," Nash continued, "and pushing them into traditional stores, we're opening opportunities for readers to encounter something new." Coming in April is a perfect example: The Art of the Possible! http://www.softskull.com/detailedbook.php?isbn=1-932360-18-2 by the American poet Kenneth Koch. Nash described it as "a book of poems that are, in fact, comics." Soft Skull is also beginning to draw the attention of other noted cartoonists. Megan Kelso, an Ignatz Award-winning cartoonist, is editing Scheherazade, an all-woman comics anthology due next fall." Publishers Weekly 12/22/2003 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 10:42:42 -0500 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: Halliburton Po... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Our usual sources inform us that Penny Arcade and J. Hoberman are being sued by the sister of Jack Smith for misuse,( theft)? of his (Smith's) estate...the trial is starting at Federal Court in NY this morning... Without knowing anything about the details...and not much caring who gets what for & from dead folk...i've got to note, nota again, that the avant-retro- garde curiously acts like every one else... Halliburton Po is loose...in i'll pub u if you pub moi...i'll read..alredy red...public $$$ for invariably the poets who need it least..give John Ashbery another prize...won;t you.. Halliburton Po is the exact dyslexic mirror mirage of Halliburton Shrub...nepotism metooism programmed conform make that a double..and i'll take a tenure on the side...drn... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 09:49:24 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Haas Bianchi Subject: Chicago Poetry Calendar for February 2004 http://chicagopoetrycalendar.blogspot.com/ In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FEBRUARY's Calendar http://chicagopoetrycalendar.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 11:10:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Re: work/play habits In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steve I agree that the work ethic is primarily a means of social control, since most jobs I've had were bureaucratic and accomplished virtually nothing directly. Most work essential to survival could be done in about three hours every day, I suspect. In the years I was gainfully employed, I learned to do my work quickly so that I could sneak in writing time during working hours as well as lunch. I considered the job my "unofficial government grant." Some co-workers tried to make trouble for me for writing on the job, but I always did what the job required first. And, it turns out, I did more extra work than most of them. I also put in 2 or 3 hours after work, usually extending a 45-minute dinner to several hours in the process. Now that I've retired, I spend an average of 5 hours a day writing or sending out material or performing other writing-related activities. I also get to eat warm dinners, which is very nice. I still write during lunch. I get up early to do my work so that my wife and I can have time together later in the day. I keep a regular schedule because in my teens and early 20's, when I wrote more on inspiration, I didn't finish many projects. I learned the value of a daily routine in the 3 years in my mid-20's when I studied jazz bass because I was unable to write. Musicians don't improve unless they practice daily. I discovered this applies to writers, as well. A lot of inspiration comes from preparation, I think, not unlike the saying about luck being a combination of preparation and opportunity. The more you know your craft, the more you've trained your mind to generate "inspiration" and trained yourself to produce work even when "inspiration" isn't there. (As in baseball, some days you don't have your fastball, so you really on guile and junk pitches.) Part of craft, I think, is training your mind to be receptive to ideas and developing your craft so that you can act on them when they appear. Even in retirement, it's difficult to block out distractions. The decades of writing on the job taught me how to regain my focus quickly. It's a very handy skill. Poetry is both work and play. I take my "work" seriously enough to resent people calling it play. But when "inspiration" hits, writing feels almost like play. But, like most mental activity, you get tired at some point in a way similar to what work does. Writing a good poem is more intellectually challenging than almost anything I ever had to do on my former job. If I really wanted to "play," I wouldn't write. I'd find a coed softball team or, in my current environment, try to become a whiz at golf or shuffleboard. Or I'd just go to the pool, which is easiest. Thanks for asking the question. How other writers manage to get their work done despite all the daily obstacles has always interested me. Vernon -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Steven Shoemaker Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 3:13 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: work/play habits Kirby has recently argued for the importance of a good work ethic. I might argue instead that the "work ethic" is something of a pathology in this country, as well as a nice political instrument for keeping everyone too busy to cause any trouble. Nevertheless, I *am* interesting in how people manage to get specifically poetic work done, and I don't think I've ever seen a thread quite like that in all the time of been on the list. I'm not talking about poetic methods, which have been discussed from time to time, but about exactly how and when the work gets done. Do you get up early in the morning? Stay up late at night? Write during your lunch hour? "Steal" time while you're supposed to be doing other things at the office? Do you rely on bursts of inspiration, or set aside regular hours? Are regular hours necessary in order to prepare for (eventual) bursts of inspiration? I'd be especially interested in hearing how people manage to find time for poetic work in the face of other obligations like teaching or other wage-earning work, child care responsibilities, and so on. Do you try to "block out" other "distractions," or do you try to integrate poetry with other sorts of life activities? Lastly, do you actually think of poetry as work, or is play a better term? Or is the distinction an unnecessary one? Steve ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 10:56:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tim Peterson Subject: Re: scansion and/as religion Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Alex, with all due respect, this path is by no means inevitable for anyone, and to me (the older members of whose family have persevered and found ways to retain both their political optimism and their convictions in the face of a massive amount of cynicism and selfishness) what you're proposing seems like it's just the easy way out. Say hello to Irving Kristol for me... Best, Tim ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Funny, isn't it, how as = one ages ones values drift to a place far less self-gratifying and = filled with broader, more humanistic concerns. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 11:19:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Shoemaker Subject: German eats German (thanks to Internet) In-Reply-To: <000701c3e748$a2c3ac20$1c290e18@attbi.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Well, first there's the act at itself. And then there are the legal arguments and the judge's comments. All quite amazing. --German court sentences cannibal to 8 1/2 years for killing, eating man he met over Internet By Frank Leth, Associated Press, 1/30/2004 KASSEL, Germany -- A German who confessed to killing, dismembering and eating another man who allegedly agreed to the arrangement over the Internet was convicted Friday of manslaughter and sentenced to 8.5 years in prison. Armin Meiwes, a 42-year-old computer expert, had no "base motives" in the crime, a state court ruled, sparing him a murder conviction. Prosecutors had sought a life sentence, calling Meiwes a "human butcher" who acted simply to "satisfy a sexual impulse." They said they would appeal the verdict. The defense argued that since the victim volunteered to be killed and eaten, the crime should be classified a mercy killing, which carries a five-year maximum penalty. Before the verdict, Meiwes looked calm, chatting with his attorney and occasionally grinning for cameras allowed inside the courtroom. After the sentence was read, he shook his lawyer's hand and nodded curtly to the photographers. Explaining the verdict, Presiding Judge Volker Muetze said Meiwes' intention was not evil but "the fulfillment of his fantasy." His primary motive was "the wish to make another man part of himself," Muetze said. "Meiwes reached this bonding experience through the consumption of the flesh." When his trial opened Dec. 3 in the central city of Kassel, Meiwes confessed in detail to killing Bernd Juergen Brandes, 43, in March 2001 at Meiwes' home in the town of Rotenburg. Brandes traveled from Berlin in reply to an Internet advertisement seeking a young man for "slaughter and consumption." Meiwes testified that Brandes wanted to be stabbed to death after drinking a bottle of cold medicine to lose consciousness. "Bernd came to me of his own free will to end his life," Meiwes said in his closing statement in court Monday. "For him, it was a nice death." Still, he said he regretted the killing. "I had my big kick and I don't need to do it again," he said. "I regret it all very much, but I can't undo it." A grisly video he made of the act was shown to the court during a closed session. A doctor testified that Brandes died from loss of blood and that the medication, along with a half-bottle of liquor and 20 sleeping pills he took beforehand, could not have lessened his pain. Several experts have testified that Meiwes was fit to stand trial and was not mentally ill. Police tracked down and arrested him in December 2002 after a student in Austria alerted them to a message Meiwes had posted on the Internet. "If I hadn't been so stupid as to keep looking on the Internet, I would have taken my secret to the grave," Meiwes said in his closing statement. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 13:11:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Shoemaker Subject: Re: work/play habits In-Reply-To: <20040130161059.TFKQ1899.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net@DBY2CM31> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Thanks for the great post, Vernon! Lots of interesting stuff here. I like to give my students that old quote (can't remember who said it) about how "chance favors the prepared mind." Sometimes I fudge it to "discovery favors..." if I think they're going to be too uneasy with the idea of chance. All this is also reminding me of a Reznikoff poem about poetry and work that I'll have to look up when I get home. There's also that story about Zukofsky's father, Pinchos, meeting a friend of Louis's who had "never worked a day in his life." Now, Pinchos was your classic hard-working Jewish immigrant, making a better life for his kids, etc. but his reply was "You didn't miss a thing." I can't remember if this is in "A" or not. My friend Ted Enslin, a nearly octegnarian backwoods inveterate avoider of "steady employment," likes to quote it. Steve On Fri, 30 Jan 2004, Vernon Frazer wrote: > Steve > > I agree that the work ethic is primarily a means of social control, since > most jobs I've had were bureaucratic and accomplished virtually nothing > directly. Most work essential to survival could be done in about three hours > every day, I suspect. > > In the years I was gainfully employed, I learned to do my work quickly so > that I could sneak in writing time during working hours as well as lunch. > I considered the job my "unofficial government grant." Some co-workers tried > to make trouble for me for writing on the job, but I always did what the job > required first. And, it turns out, I did more extra work than most of them. > I also put in 2 or 3 hours after work, usually extending a 45-minute dinner > to several hours in the process. > > Now that I've retired, I spend an average of 5 hours a day writing or > sending out material or performing other writing-related activities. I also > get to eat warm dinners, which is very nice. I still write during lunch. > > I get up early to do my work so that my wife and I can have time together > later in the day. I keep a regular schedule because in my teens and early > 20's, when I wrote more on inspiration, I didn't finish many projects. I > learned the value of a daily routine in the 3 years in my mid-20's when I > studied jazz bass because I was unable to write. Musicians don't improve > unless they practice daily. I discovered this applies to writers, as well. > > A lot of inspiration comes from preparation, I think, not unlike the saying > about luck being a combination of preparation and opportunity. The more you > know your craft, the more you've trained your mind to generate "inspiration" > and trained yourself to produce work even when "inspiration" isn't there. > (As in baseball, some days you don't have your fastball, so you really on > guile and junk pitches.) Part of craft, I think, is training your mind to be > receptive to ideas and developing your craft so that you can act on them > when they appear. > > Even in retirement, it's difficult to block out distractions. The decades of > writing on the job taught me how to regain my focus quickly. It's a very > handy skill. > > Poetry is both work and play. I take my "work" seriously enough to resent > people calling it play. But when "inspiration" hits, writing feels almost > like play. But, like most mental activity, you get tired at some point in a > way similar to what work does. Writing a good poem is more intellectually > challenging than almost anything I ever had to do on my former job. > > If I really wanted to "play," I wouldn't write. I'd find a coed softball > team or, in my current environment, try to become a whiz at golf or > shuffleboard. Or I'd just go to the pool, which is easiest. > > Thanks for asking the question. How other writers manage to get their work > done despite all the daily obstacles has always interested me. > > Vernon > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of Steven Shoemaker > Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 3:13 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: work/play habits > > Kirby has recently argued for the importance of a good work ethic. I > might argue instead that the "work ethic" is something of a pathology in > this country, as well as a nice political instrument for keeping everyone > too busy to cause any trouble. Nevertheless, I *am* interesting in how > people manage to get specifically poetic work done, and I don't think I've > ever seen a thread quite like that in all the time of been on the list. > I'm not talking about poetic methods, which have been discussed from time > to time, but about exactly how and when the work gets done. Do you get up > early in the morning? Stay up late at night? Write during your lunch > hour? "Steal" time while you're supposed to be doing other things at the > office? Do you rely on bursts of inspiration, or set aside regular hours? > Are regular hours necessary in order to prepare for (eventual) bursts of > inspiration? > > I'd be especially interested in hearing how people manage to find time for > poetic work in the face of other obligations like teaching or > other wage-earning work, child care responsibilities, and so on. Do you > try to "block out" other "distractions," or do you try to integrate poetry > with other sorts of life activities? > > Lastly, do you actually think of poetry as work, or is play a better term? > Or is the distinction an unnecessary one? > > Steve > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 12:24:11 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: banning 'evolution' Comments: To: WRYTING-L Disciplines Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v543) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Georgia considers banning 'evolution' Friday, January 30, 2004 Posted: 10:11 AM EST (1511 GMT) ATLANTA, Georgia (AP) -- The state's school superintendent has proposed striking the word evolution from Georgia's science curriculum and replacing it with the phrase "biological changes over time." The change is included in more than 800 pages of draft revisions to Georgia's curriculum that have been posted by the Department of Education on its Web site. The middle and high school standards are expected to be voted on by the state Board of Education in May, after public feedback. Superintendent Kathy Cox said the concept of evolution would still be taught under the proposal, but the word would not be used. The proposal would not require schools to buy new textbooks omitting the word evolution and would not prevent teachers from using it. Cox repeatedly referred to evolution as a "buzzword" Thursday and said the ban was proposed, in part, to alleviate pressure on teachers in socially conservative areas where parents object to its teaching. "If teachers across this state, parents across this state say, 'This is not what we want,' then we'll change it," said Cox, a Republican elected in 2002. Educators and legislators criticized the proposal, saying science teachers understand the theories behind evolution and how to teach them. "Here we are, saying we have to improve standards and improve education, and we're just throwing a bone to the conservatives with total disregard to what scientists say," said state Rep. Bob Holmes, a Democrat. Social conservatives who prefer religious creation to be taught instead of evolution criticized the proposal as well. "If you're teaching the concept without the word, what's the point?" said Rep. Bobby Franklin, a Republican. "It's stupid. It's like teaching gravity without using the word gravity." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 14:06:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Re: work/play habits In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You're welcome, Steve. I'm really pleased that you found it useful. Feel free to share it with your students if you think it's relevant. "Chance" or "discovery" are equally appropriate. Training yourself to be a receptor for ideas in the air or the mind is very important if you want to generate ideas or trap elusive ones. I don't know the Zukovsky quote, but I remember Ted Enslin from his reading at the long-gone Ziesing Brothers Book Emporium in Willimantic, CT in late 1985 or early 1986. Aside from enjoying his work and his likable, unpretentious manner, his reading taught me the value of hearing poets read their work. Knowing the poet's voice--its rhythm, pace and expressiveness-- helps me interpret the poet's other poems when I read them in silence. Best, Vernon -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Steven Shoemaker Sent: Friday, January 30, 2004 1:12 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: work/play habits Thanks for the great post, Vernon! Lots of interesting stuff here. I like to give my students that old quote (can't remember who said it) about how "chance favors the prepared mind." Sometimes I fudge it to "discovery favors..." if I think they're going to be too uneasy with the idea of chance. All this is also reminding me of a Reznikoff poem about poetry and work that I'll have to look up when I get home. There's also that story about Zukofsky's father, Pinchos, meeting a friend of Louis's who had "never worked a day in his life." Now, Pinchos was your classic hard-working Jewish immigrant, making a better life for his kids, etc. but his reply was "You didn't miss a thing." I can't remember if this is in "A" or not. My friend Ted Enslin, a nearly octegnarian backwoods inveterate avoider of "steady employment," likes to quote it. Steve On Fri, 30 Jan 2004, Vernon Frazer wrote: > Steve > > I agree that the work ethic is primarily a means of social control, since > most jobs I've had were bureaucratic and accomplished virtually nothing > directly. Most work essential to survival could be done in about three hours > every day, I suspect. > > In the years I was gainfully employed, I learned to do my work quickly so > that I could sneak in writing time during working hours as well as lunch. > I considered the job my "unofficial government grant." Some co-workers tried > to make trouble for me for writing on the job, but I always did what the job > required first. And, it turns out, I did more extra work than most of them. > I also put in 2 or 3 hours after work, usually extending a 45-minute dinner > to several hours in the process. > > Now that I've retired, I spend an average of 5 hours a day writing or > sending out material or performing other writing-related activities. I also > get to eat warm dinners, which is very nice. I still write during lunch. > > I get up early to do my work so that my wife and I can have time together > later in the day. I keep a regular schedule because in my teens and early > 20's, when I wrote more on inspiration, I didn't finish many projects. I > learned the value of a daily routine in the 3 years in my mid-20's when I > studied jazz bass because I was unable to write. Musicians don't improve > unless they practice daily. I discovered this applies to writers, as well. > > A lot of inspiration comes from preparation, I think, not unlike the saying > about luck being a combination of preparation and opportunity. The more you > know your craft, the more you've trained your mind to generate "inspiration" > and trained yourself to produce work even when "inspiration" isn't there. > (As in baseball, some days you don't have your fastball, so you really on > guile and junk pitches.) Part of craft, I think, is training your mind to be > receptive to ideas and developing your craft so that you can act on them > when they appear. > > Even in retirement, it's difficult to block out distractions. The decades of > writing on the job taught me how to regain my focus quickly. It's a very > handy skill. > > Poetry is both work and play. I take my "work" seriously enough to resent > people calling it play. But when "inspiration" hits, writing feels almost > like play. But, like most mental activity, you get tired at some point in a > way similar to what work does. Writing a good poem is more intellectually > challenging than almost anything I ever had to do on my former job. > > If I really wanted to "play," I wouldn't write. I'd find a coed softball > team or, in my current environment, try to become a whiz at golf or > shuffleboard. Or I'd just go to the pool, which is easiest. > > Thanks for asking the question. How other writers manage to get their work > done despite all the daily obstacles has always interested me. > > Vernon > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of Steven Shoemaker > Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 3:13 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: work/play habits > > Kirby has recently argued for the importance of a good work ethic. I > might argue instead that the "work ethic" is something of a pathology in > this country, as well as a nice political instrument for keeping everyone > too busy to cause any trouble. Nevertheless, I *am* interesting in how > people manage to get specifically poetic work done, and I don't think I've > ever seen a thread quite like that in all the time of been on the list. > I'm not talking about poetic methods, which have been discussed from time > to time, but about exactly how and when the work gets done. Do you get up > early in the morning? Stay up late at night? Write during your lunch > hour? "Steal" time while you're supposed to be doing other things at the > office? Do you rely on bursts of inspiration, or set aside regular hours? > Are regular hours necessary in order to prepare for (eventual) bursts of > inspiration? > > I'd be especially interested in hearing how people manage to find time for > poetic work in the face of other obligations like teaching or > other wage-earning work, child care responsibilities, and so on. Do you > try to "block out" other "distractions," or do you try to integrate poetry > with other sorts of life activities? > > Lastly, do you actually think of poetry as work, or is play a better term? > Or is the distinction an unnecessary one? > > Steve > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 14:13:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tim Peterson Subject: banning 'evolution' Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed On the one hand, you have religious fundamentalism, and on the other, you've got social darwinism, which is another kind of religious fundamentalism in itself...I'll choose "none of the above." Tim ___________________________________ Georgia considers banning 'evolution' Friday, January 30, 2004 Posted: 10:11 AM EST (1511 GMT) ATLANTA, Georgia (AP) -- The state's school superintendent has proposed striking the word evolution from Georgia's science curriculum and replacing it with the phrase "biological changes over time." The change is included in more than 800 pages of draft revisions to Georgia's curriculum that have been posted by the Department of Education on its Web site. The middle and high school standards are expected to be voted on by the state Board of Education in May, after public feedback. Superintendent Kathy Cox said the concept of evolution would still be taught under the proposal, but the word would not be used. The proposal would not require schools to buy new textbooks omitting the word evolution and would not prevent teachers from using it. Cox repeatedly referred to evolution as a "buzzword" Thursday and said the ban was proposed, in part, to alleviate pressure on teachers in socially conservative areas where parents object to its teaching. "If teachers across this state, parents across this state say, 'This is not what we want,' then we'll change it," said Cox, a Republican elected in 2002. Educators and legislators criticized the proposal, saying science teachers understand the theories behind evolution and how to teach them. "Here we are, saying we have to improve standards and improve education, and we're just throwing a bone to the conservatives with total disregard to what scientists say," said state Rep. Bob Holmes, a Democrat. Social conservatives who prefer religious creation to be taught instead of evolution criticized the proposal as well. "If you're teaching the concept without the word, what's the point?" said Rep. Bobby Franklin, a Republican. "It's stupid. It's like teaching gravity without using the word gravity." Tim Peterson Journals Marketing Coordinator The MIT Press Five Cambridge Center Cambridge, MA 02142-1493 phone: (617) 258-0595 fax: (617) 258-5028 http://mitpress.mit.edu/journals ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 16:02:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: wondyr of wondyr chant of chant MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII wondyr of wondyr chant of chant wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr wyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNyn -YNondyr __ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 16:40:20 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: work/play habits MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 01/30/04 11:11:36 AM, frazerv@BELLSOUTH.NET writes: > Writing a good poem is more intellectually > challenging than almost anything I ever had to do on my former job > Vernon, What was the activity that was more challenging than writing a good poem? Murat ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 09:50:52 +1100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alison Croggon Subject: Re: work/play habits In-Reply-To: <20040130161059.TFKQ1899.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net@DBY2CM31> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 31/1/04 3:10 AM, "Vernon Frazer" wrote: > I'd be especially interested in hearing how people manage to find time for > poetic work in the face of other obligations like teaching or > other wage-earning work, child care responsibilities, and so on. Do you > try to "block out" other "distractions," or do you try to integrate poetry > with other sorts of life activities? I have three children, and have always done a lot of work with them around. Out of necessity my work has always been integrated with my environment; to its benefit, ultimately. I don't think an artist's work should be hermetically sealed from the life around her, at any level. I wrote my first novel, a short one of about 100 pages, right after the birth of my third child; I wrote when he was asleep and read what I wrote when I was breastfeeding, and the rhythms of that were kind of like long breaths. I don't think it's surprising that that is a very formally structured novel. I do know that I would never have been able to write it if I hadn't had a computer. When they were babies, I wrote poems in my head and wrote them down later when I had a chance. When the children were smaller it was a question of tuning my head like a radio so I only attended to the noises which required attention: certain scary cries meaning someone was hurt, demands for food, arguments or suspicious silences. I was very strict about bedtime. Now they're older I don't need to worry about the same things, but bedtime is right out. Holidays are a bit stressful; we can end up with six teenagers in the house all playing different music and sometimes I just long for quiet. On the other hand, I like having that energy around me. Until just over a decade ago I worked as a journalist for daily newspapers, both fulltime and part time. Raising children is much harder than anything I have done in the workforce (or anywhere else). Paradoxically, maybe, the other work interfered much more grievously with my own work. Children have never been a bother in that way. I work hard, but I don't buy this work ethic business. It seems to me a peculiarly American ideology and very repressive. Working hard at something I love doing is one of my definitions of happiness. Working as a wage slave at something I don't especially enjoy is a good way for me to be miserable. Being miserable is no good for me or my family. So I spend a fair bit of ingenuity structuring my life to enable me to do what I want. Best A Alison Croggon Editor, Masthead http://www.masthead.net.au Home page http://www.alisoncroggon.com Blog http://alisoncroggon.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 17:24:59 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: "Intelligence" In-Reply-To: <20040130161059.TFKQ1899.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net@DBY2CM31> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I always like the minimalist aesthetic of rhythmic repetition with its variations on levels and shades of timbre. It's made me look for repetitions in environments in a particular way. For example - at risk of a political indulgence that's not identified with classical minimalism - I am taken by the repetition of the word "Intelligence", particularly in the way it begins to shade the way we look at the Bush Administration; the way "intelligence" begins to mount in intensity, hovering and repeated itself in and around the edges of the White House; Steve Reich and/or his Ghanaian talking drum teachers as an analog for the wavering modulations, accretions and resonances in which the word "Intelligence" increasingly becomes a question, an object of inquiry in and of itself. Ironically, and in terms of the space/time continuum, "Intelligence" was a question from the start, an assumption, at least on the part of the Left, that George Bush did not have the "Intelligence" required for the job. The question there at the start, and it will be there at the finish, albeit on a macro level, one that radiates and resonates through out this Administration, an inability to respond to the material of "Intelligence" either in word or in substance. A defining word/question at the start and one that is maximized as the four year term "arises" to its conclusion, his "intelligence" (or lack of it) now irrevocably joined to Central Intelligence (or - clearly - the lack of it). Ah, "minimalism" in the public works. Mind your righteous drums! Stephen Vincent ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 17:51:01 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Hadbawnik Subject: Re: work/play habits In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Great post. I was just talking about this with a friend of mine who recently returned from nearly two years of avoiding a real job, and just writing all that time, and now is struggling to find time to write. I have two part-time jobs and work six days a week. However one of those jobs is very flexible, the other is an afternoon gig, so I generally have the mornings free to write. On the other hand, this time had been getting more and more frustrating as I woke up later and later each day and felt rushed, especially knowing that ultimately, six days out of seven, I do have to work. Having read somewhere that Valery wrote every day from 5-8am, and seen (in the biopic Sylvia) that Plath wrote all of Ariel on mornings between 4-8am, I was reminded of the benefits of waking up very early (or staying up very late) to write. The solitude and silence simply cannot be found at any other time of day or night, especially if one lives in the city, as I do. Also, there is that quasi-grogginess one achieves at these times, that feeling of still having one foot in dreamland and the other awake, so to speak, that certainly facilitates a "poetic" mindframe much better than later in the morning or afternoon, when one's wide awake and already doing other things. I also carry around a small notebook at all times, although I was much more active with it when I didn't have a regular job. My gig as an arts administrator requires a lot of attention and is not very "inspirational," as I'm completely alone all the time, but my second gig as a page at the public library is sometimes rife with material, as I'm around lots of people and sort of wandering amidst piles of books. Yet I hate that job. Go figure. I do think that writing requires every-day discipline in the same way that playing an instrument does, and it's not always fun, sometimes it's just work. But nothing else makes me feel as good and ordered and free as having done it, so that's the reward. Maybe after you've got your chops down it's not as important, but that can be a lifelong process, and really, once you've got the habit of writing every day, why stop? best, David Hadbawnik www.habenichtpress.com -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Steven Shoemaker Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 12:13 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: work/play habits Kirby has recently argued for the importance of a good work ethic. I might argue instead that the "work ethic" is something of a pathology in this country, as well as a nice political instrument for keeping everyone too busy to cause any trouble. Nevertheless, I *am* interesting in how people manage to get specifically poetic work done, and I don't think I've ever seen a thread quite like that in all the time of been on the list. I'm not talking about poetic methods, which have been discussed from time to time, but about exactly how and when the work gets done. Do you get up early in the morning? Stay up late at night? Write during your lunch hour? "Steal" time while you're supposed to be doing other things at the office? Do you rely on bursts of inspiration, or set aside regular hours? Are regular hours necessary in order to prepare for (eventual) bursts of inspiration? I'd be especially interested in hearing how people manage to find time for poetic work in the face of other obligations like teaching or other wage-earning work, child care responsibilities, and so on. Do you try to "block out" other "distractions," or do you try to integrate poetry with other sorts of life activities? Lastly, do you actually think of poetry as work, or is play a better term? Or is the distinction an unnecessary one? Steve ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 17:44:57 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: Re: "Intelligence" In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bush speaks of 'intelligence failures' Bush speaks of 'intelligence failures' Now Bush Speaks of 'Intelligence Failures' over George Bush Intelligence over Central Intelligence Agency for Intelligence over the George Bush Center for Intelligence over a 'intelligence failures' of intelligence work over a George Bush intelligence service... You decide. ... Political Joke Archives or George W. Bush's Intelligence ... George W. Bush's Intelligence Quiz or George W. Bush Category: a Politicial Quiz visiting Intelligence Quiz. removing george Pre-War Intelligence before 9/11 ... Intelligence Bush Intelligence Center for Intelligence Center for George Bush Intelligence some of the things said by George intelligence, or if we .. in the eyes of , because an uncontrolled military machine intelligence apparatus, financed George W. Bush's Intelligence Quiz While visiting England, George W. Bush leadership philosophy On Friday, January 30, 2004, at 05:24 PM, Stephen Vincent wrote: > I always like the minimalist aesthetic of rhythmic repetition with its > variations on levels and shades of timbre. It's made me look for > repetitions > in environments in a particular way. For example - at risk of a > political > indulgence that's not identified with classical minimalism - I am > taken by > the repetition of the word "Intelligence", particularly in the way it > begins to shade the way we look at the Bush Administration; the way > "intelligence" begins to mount in intensity, hovering and repeated > itself in > and around the edges of the White House; Steve Reich and/or his > Ghanaian > talking drum teachers as an analog for the wavering modulations, > accretions > and resonances in which the word "Intelligence" increasingly becomes a > question, an object of inquiry in and of itself. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 19:44:07 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: tom bell Subject: Re: Fwd From Stephen Baraban Re: scansion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stephan, Did you ever remember the source of this? "Did you know that Charles Bernstein is becoming interested in prosody, and will apparently publish something on the subject? So I read in a recent interview with him, but I can't remember the magazine (I was browsing through some magazines at a Grand Central Station newspaper/magazine shop?) I'm beginning to wish I knew about meter." Stephen M. Baraban ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 23:38:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ###### ###### ### ## # # # # # ################################## ################################## ################################## # # # # # ## ## ###### ###### # # # # ################################## ################################## ################################## # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # ################################## ################################## ################################## # # # # # # # # ################################## ################################## ################################## # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # ### # # ####### # # # ## ## ### ### ####### ###### # # ########################### ############################# ############################### ######## # ##### # #### ### ### ### ### ## ### ### # ############################# ######################## # ####### ####### ###### #### ############ ## ###### ### ## ##### ## # ###### ## # ##### # # ###### # ## ###### # ## ###### ## ## ####### ### ##### ######## #### ################ ###### ############ ######## # # ### ###### # ##### #### ## #### ## ##### ## ##### ## ##### ## ############ ## ############## ## ############## ############## # ############### # ############### ############# ########## ###### ## # # # # # ################################## ################################## ################################## # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # ################################## ################################## ################################## # # # # # # ### ###### # ##### #### ## #### ## ##### ## ##### ## ##### ## ############ ## ############## ## ############## ############## # ############### # ############### ############# ########## ###### ## # ####### ####### ###### #### ############ ## ###### ### ## ##### ## # ###### ## # ##### # # ###### # ## ###### # ## ###### ## ## ####### ### ##### ######## #### ################ ###### ############ ######## # # ### ###### # ##### #### ## #### ## ##### ## ##### ## ##### ## ############ ## ############## ## ############## ############## # ############### # ############### ############# ########## ###### ## # # # # # ################################## ################################## ################################## # # # # # # # # # # ## ### ####### # # # # ################################## ################################## ################################## # # # # # # # # # # ## ### ####### ###### ###### ### ## # # # # # ################################## ################################## ################################## # # # # # ## ## ###### ###### # # # # ################################## ################################## ################################## # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # ################################## ################################## ################################## # # # # # # # # ################################## ################################## ################################## # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # ### # # ####### # # # ## ## ### ### ####### ###### # # # # ################################## ################################## ################################## # # # # # # # # # # ## ### ####### # # ########################### ############################# ############################### ######## # ##### # #### ### ### ### ### ## ### ### # ############################# ######################## # ########## ################# ####################### ########################## ######## ####### ##### #### ### ### ### ## ## # ## # # ## ## ## # ### # ###### ## ###### # # # # ################################## ################################## ################################## # ### # # ####### # ############ ########### ### ########### ### # ############ ### ########### ### # ######### ### # ###### ### #### ## # # # ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 00:07:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Shoemaker Subject: Rez & Zuk on work In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Here's the Reznikoff poem I mentioned in an earlier post: After I had worked all day at what I earn my living, I was tired. Now my own work has lost another day, I thought, but began slowly, and slowly my strength came back to me. Surely, the tide comes in twice a day. -- That's encouraging. As for the Zuk, it looks like the story I gave was a little scrambled. Looking in "A" I see that the anecdote did not involve LZ's father. Stephen Baraban wrote me a backchannel that got closer to the truth, as follows: "I seem to remember a story that John F. Kennedy was campaigning for president before a feisty blue collar audience, and somebody said to him "you've never worked a day in you life, have you?" JFK said "no, I haven't." The reply: "you haven't missed anything". Pinchos Z. said it too?--good for him!" But the lines in "A" refer to "an Irish Boston factory worker" speaking up during "Ted's campaign," so I guess the reference is not to JFK but to *Ted Kennedy, who was elected to the Senate for the first time in 1962 ("A"-14, where the lines are found, was written in 1964). As an interesting side note, for those who are playing along at home, the word "work" appears in the index to "A" with 56 references! *Please note that Ted Enslin (mentioned in my previous mangled post) was never elected to the Senate, but neither did Ted Kennedy ever, to my knowledge, grow blueberries in Maine. Steve ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 00:36:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: please note MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I've had to change my procmail/spamassassin filtering from saving spam in a file to send it to /dev/null (the metaphysics of this amazes me) - the auto-delete bin as far as I'm concerned. So if you send me something and don't hear back, please send back with a different heading - or at least inform me that you haven't received a response. I've had to do this because my spam had reached about 5 megabytes a day. - Alan http://www.asondheim.org/ http://www.asondheim.org/portal/.nikuko http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt Trace projects http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm finger sondheim@panix.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 08:37:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: work/play habits In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've always thought the work goes on all the time, whether one's got pen in hand (so to speak) or not. As a result, perhaps, I've never really worried about "not writing." Some days I do, some days I don't. And sometimes the days I don't extend to weeks or months. And the work goes on all the same. I think of "it" (whatever "it" means) as "serious play," btw. Hal "We are in the age of nerves. The muscle hangs, Like a memory, in museums . . ." --Vicente Huidobro Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard@earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard { Kirby has recently argued for the importance of a good work ethic. I { might argue instead that the "work ethic" is something of a pathology in { this country, as well as a nice political instrument for keeping everyone { too busy to cause any trouble. Nevertheless, I *am* interesting in how { people manage to get specifically poetic work done, and I don't think I've { ever seen a thread quite like that in all the time of been on the list. { I'm not talking about poetic methods, which have been discussed from time { to time, but about exactly how and when the work gets done. Do you get up { early in the morning? Stay up late at night? Write during your lunch { hour? "Steal" time while you're supposed to be doing other things at the { office? Do you rely on bursts of inspiration, or set aside regular hours? { Are regular hours necessary in order to prepare for (eventual) bursts of { inspiration? { { I'd be especially interested in hearing how people manage to find time for { poetic work in the face of other obligations like teaching or { other wage-earning work, child care responsibilities, and so on. Do you { try to "block out" other "distractions," or do you try to integrate poetry { with other sorts of life activities? { { Lastly, do you actually think of poetry as work, or is play a better term? { Or is the distinction an unnecessary one? { { Steve ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 09:52:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Resent-From: poetics@buffalo.edu Comments: Originally-From: "Cranky Journal" From: Poetics List Administration Subject: Listing Call for Submissions to Cranky, a new journal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Good morning, A friend from the Boston area recommended we write to you to ask if we could submit to your list a call for submissions to our new literary/arts journal, Cranky. The basic information follows, although it can be edited for length. We also have more information on our web site, including a description of what type of work we prefer. Amber Curtis & Amanda Laughtland CALL FOR SUBMISSIONS Cranky, Literary/Arts Journal. The first issue of Cranky, a perfect-bound literary/arts journal featuring nearly 70 pages of poetry, fiction and nonfiction, is now available. Single copies are available for $6 each. Edited and published in Seattle by Amber Curtis and Amanda Laughtland, the debut issue of Cranky includes work by such writers as Jim Bertolino, John Burgess, Lyn Lifshin and Kary Wayson as well as a conversation with novelist/poet Carol Guess. Cranky appears three times per year in the months of January, May, and September. Single copies are $6 each, or a year’s subscription costs $15. Checks (payable to Amanda Laughtland) can be sent to Cranky Editors, 322 10th Ave E, # C-5, Seattle, WA 98102. The editors read submissions continually and are actively seeking original poems, short prose pieces (less than 1,000 words) and visual art (black & white and color) for future issues. Submissions by email (pasted into the body of the message—no attachments, please!) are preferred. Send no more than 5 poems or 2 prose pieces to crankyjournal@hotmail.com. Writing and art submissions can also be mailed to Cranky Editors, 322 10th Ave E, # C-5, Seattle, WA 98102. For additional submission guidelines and other Cranky-related news, see our website at http://www.bookish.org. _________________________________________________________________ Let the new MSN Premium Internet Software make the most of your high-speed experience. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=byoa/prem&ST=1 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 09:58:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Resent-From: poetics@buffalo.edu Comments: Originally-From: "CLC CLC" From: Poetics List Administration Subject: Alan Sondheim @ WVU, Feb 2-4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Alan Sondheim will visit West Virginia University in Morgantown, WV for = several events from February 2-4. Sondheim is a New York based net artist = and poet, who conducts a continuous meditation on cyberspace, emphasizing = issues of interiority, subjectivity, body, and language. All events are = free and open to the public. --------------------------------------------------- Monday February 2, 2004. Alan Sondheim in a roundtable conversation with = hypertext poet Jim Rosenberg and Frances van Scoy, Lane Department of = Computer Science, West Virginia University, on the topic of "Formal = Systems and Writing: a discussion across the disciplines." At the = Mountaineer Room, WVU Mountainlair, 7pm. Tuesday February 3, 2004. Alan Sondheim will talk on "Artistic Practice in = the Network." At the Mountaineer Room, WVU Mountainlair, 7pm. Wednesday February 4, 2004. Alan Sondheim in performance at the Blue Moose = Caf=E9, Morgantown, 8pm. With interactive new media installations by Sandy = Baldwin and Reid Harward (starting at 7pm). --------------------------------------------------- Sondheim's visit is hosted by the Center for Literary Computing at West = Virginia University. Send questions to Sandy Baldwin at clc@mail.wvu.edu . ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 10:11:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: Re: work/play habits In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit i'm not one of those writers who write at a certain time in a certain place on a daily basis, like my friend Aaron Kiely who writes in the same cafe everyday each evening for two hours. the same way he and others impose that daily behavior, i structure myself by creating various projects. This past January I wrote a postcard a day to the poet Sean Cole. I wrote a bunch of Avril Lavigne acrostics with my niece Michelle in June. This past October, Sean and I wrote each other a postcard a day. In November, I wrote a poem each night on a blog. And come tomorrow, poet Gina Myers and I will be exchanging daily emailed letters for the month of February. I usually do the project writing just before bed, anywhere from midnight to 5 in the morning, turning my tv to the jazz music choice channel (one of those music channels where yr tv becomes a radio, basically, but with factoids about the artist playing shown on the screen, alongside ads telling you how to buy their cd). I like writing just before bed best because my defenses, however much they're almost not in play at all other times, are even less in play then due to exhaustion. I also always have a memo pad in my pocket, so when the poems come at other times i can write them down. As for thinking poetry as work or play, neither term seems fully accurate to me. Play almost seems derisive, like calling something deeply cared about a hobby, and work something you do to pay the rent. To me the distinction is, as steven shoemaker asked, an unnecessary one. best, david -- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://boogcity.blog-city.com/ T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 11:01:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: please note In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit { I've had to do this because my spam had reached about 5 megabytes a day. { { - Alan When you're getting that much spam, it's time to slice it, cook it, and eat it. Hal Not responsible for typographical errors. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard@earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 11:48:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: schwartzgk Subject: Re: please note MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ...or sculpt it! -jerry schwartz > { I've had to do this because my spam had reached about 5 megabytes a day. > { > { - Alan > > When you're getting that much spam, it's time to > slice it, cook it, and eat it. > > Hal Not responsible for typographical errors. > > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard@earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 12:54:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Re: Work / play habits MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Murat, Now that I think a little more about it, nothing on my day job was more challenging than writing a poem---except possibly for the two novels I wrote on the job. Their challenge was the staying power required to complete a long work. I did obtain several $35,000,000 Section 8 grants from HUD, seed grants for new social service agencies, resolve inter-agency feuds that could have had political repercussions, work in neighborhoods the morning after a drive-by shooting had occurred, make paper trails for questionable deals between agency commissioners and legislators---but none of these involved me as intellectually as writing. They just distracted me from the challenge for a time, while paying for my food, rent and (now) my pension. Vernon ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 13:14:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Re: Work / play habits--to all & sundry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alison I believe in the joy or working at something you love. You've obviously wanted to write and have been resourceful enough to find a way to do it. I respect your desire; after decades of writing, I know the difference between those who want to write and those who want to write so badly they do it despite whatever obstacles confront them. David Sometimes I find writing a poem while half-awake (at either end of the day) makes me receptive to ideas that might not surface if I were well-rested. Use anything that works. Halvard I never really stop, either. The cogs are always turning. But then, my mind has always been that way. Does anybody have a spare off switch? David Kischenbaum I work according to projects, myself. The thing is, I have so many writing projects going on I have to keep at it almost every day, although I'm in a slight lull right now. I don't listen to music when I write because I get into a trancelike state and can't hear the music. I bristle when somebody calls what I do a hobby. Hobbies are stamp collecting, coed softball, things you enjoy doing but have no serious desire to become proficient at doing. Writing to me is a serious form of play, as someone posted. And it's more rewarding than any gainful employment I've had, except for the pay. It's also work that brings me joy and spiritual satisfaction. It's not so much either play or work as both and more. Now I've used my two posts for the day. Time to shut up and listen. Vernon ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 13:13:43 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Larry Sawyer & Lina ramona Subject: Re: milkmag/rothenberg MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable new at milk magazine... Online chapbook: Preparing the Child's Arm for the Sky=20 by Michael ROTHENBERG http://www.milkmag.org Also/ visual art by David HWANG Yana PAYUSOVA & August HIGHLAND poetry/ Michael McCLURE Jerome ROTHENBERG Daniel NESTER Ira COHEN Tom CLARK & Linh DINH, among others... coming soon: Yamamoto KANSUKE,=20 Conveyor of the Impossible! ____________________________ milk magazine Larry Sawyer, editor Lina ramona Vitkauskas, fiction/Web ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 11:26:01 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAXINE CHERNOFF Subject: New Book Avalialbe In-Reply-To: <001f01c3e82e$58872f60$cb43a243@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Evolution of the Bridge: Selected Prose Poems (127 pages) is just out from Salt Publishing in England. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 11:51:59 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grumman Subject: Question about Harry Crosby and Kenneth Rexroth Poems In-Reply-To: <20040130161059.TFKQ1899.imf16aec.mail.bellsouth.net@DBY2CM31> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I need title and publication date of a Harry Crosby poem that consists of repetitions of the word, "black," surrounding the word, "sun," in a rectangle. I also need the title and publication date of a poem by Kenneth Rexroth that consists entirely of words made up of w (e.g., "wwwwwwww")--or maybe it's a poem with a stanza of such words. . . . I need it for an entry I did for Burt Kimmelman's Companion to Contemporary Literature. Much gratitude to anyone who can help me out. --Bob G. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 15:22:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Shoemaker Subject: Re: work/play habits In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I'm very much enjoying all the responses on this thread, and trying to absorb some good tips! Alison--What was the name of that novel you wrote while the baby was sleeping? Steve ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 15:34:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Keri Thomas Subject: Re: work/play habits Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I have tried to write at work, but always seem to get interrupted and lose my flow of ideas. Unfortunately, I have been going through extreme writer's block at the moment which makes my day job seems even more tedious and uneventful. This coupled with deciding on returning to school and how it will affect me financially is making me go slightly mad, but, unfortunately, not fueling any ideas. I appreciate seeing how everyone else seems to fit writing time in with their daily routine. Perhaps after I set up my writing room (I'm also moving), the block with be lifted. Thanks for the encouragement. Keri >From: Halvard Johnson >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: work/play habits >Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 08:37:48 -0500 > >I've always thought the work goes on all the time, whether one's >got pen in hand (so to speak) or not. As a result, perhaps, I've >never really worried about "not writing." Some days I do, some >days I don't. And sometimes the days I don't extend to weeks >or months. And the work goes on all the same. > >I think of "it" (whatever "it" means) as "serious play," btw. > >Hal "We are in the age of nerves. The muscle hangs, > Like a memory, in museums . . ." > --Vicente Huidobro >Halvard Johnson >=============== >email: halvard@earthlink.net >website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > >{ Kirby has recently argued for the importance of a good work ethic. I >{ might argue instead that the "work ethic" is something of a pathology >in >{ this country, as well as a nice political instrument for keeping >everyone >{ too busy to cause any trouble. Nevertheless, I *am* interesting in >how >{ people manage to get specifically poetic work done, and I don't think >I've >{ ever seen a thread quite like that in all the time of been on the >list. >{ I'm not talking about poetic methods, which have been discussed from >time >{ to time, but about exactly how and when the work gets done. Do you >get up >{ early in the morning? Stay up late at night? Write during your lunch >{ hour? "Steal" time while you're supposed to be doing other things at >the >{ office? Do you rely on bursts of inspiration, or set aside regular >hours? >{ Are regular hours necessary in order to prepare for (eventual) bursts >of >{ inspiration? >{ >{ I'd be especially interested in hearing how people manage to find time >for >{ poetic work in the face of other obligations like teaching or >{ other wage-earning work, child care responsibilities, and so on. Do >you >{ try to "block out" other "distractions," or do you try to integrate >poetry >{ with other sorts of life activities? >{ >{ Lastly, do you actually think of poetry as work, or is play a better >term? >{ Or is the distinction an unnecessary one? >{ >{ Steve _________________________________________________________________ Check out the coupons and bargains on MSN Offers! http://shopping.msn.com/softcontent/softcontent.aspx?scmId=1418 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 22:45:58 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jukka-Pekka Kervinen Subject: xStream #17 online Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii xStream -- Issue #17 xStream Issue #17 is online: 1. Regular: Works from 7 poets (Sheila E. Murphy, Andrew French, Ivan Arguelles, John M. Bennett, Harry K. Stammer, Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino and Peter Ganick) 2. Autoissue: Computer-generated poems from Issue #17 texts, the whole autoissue is generated in "real-time". Submissions are welcome, please send to xstream@xpressed.org. Sincerely, Jukka-Pekka Kervinen Editor xStream WWW: http://xstream.xpressed.org email: xstream@xpressed.org ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 12:51:59 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Terrie Relf Subject: Re: work/play habits MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a seven year old, and up until recently, my grown son was here, too. It was maddening. MY daughter didn't have after-school care, either, last semester, so I found I was staying up, losing sleep...This semester, though, my son has moved out, my daughter has after-school care, so I'll be able to get those papers graded--and write more. I have so many projects that my projects have projects... I've spent most of winter break writing...I have about 30 pieces out, awaiting, news. Ter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keri Thomas" To: Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2004 12:34 PM Subject: Re: work/play habits > I have tried to write at work, but always seem to get interrupted and lose > my flow of ideas. Unfortunately, I have been going through extreme writer's > block at the moment which makes my day job seems even more tedious and > uneventful. This coupled with deciding on returning to school and how it > will affect me financially is making me go slightly mad, but, unfortunately, > not fueling any ideas. I appreciate seeing how everyone else seems to fit > writing time in with their daily routine. Perhaps after I set up my writing > room (I'm also moving), the block with be lifted. Thanks for the > encouragement. > > Keri > > > >From: Halvard Johnson > >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group > >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >Subject: Re: work/play habits > >Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 08:37:48 -0500 > > > >I've always thought the work goes on all the time, whether one's > >got pen in hand (so to speak) or not. As a result, perhaps, I've > >never really worried about "not writing." Some days I do, some > >days I don't. And sometimes the days I don't extend to weeks > >or months. And the work goes on all the same. > > > >I think of "it" (whatever "it" means) as "serious play," btw. > > > >Hal "We are in the age of nerves. The muscle hangs, > > Like a memory, in museums . . ." > > --Vicente Huidobro > >Halvard Johnson > >=============== > >email: halvard@earthlink.net > >website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > > > >{ Kirby has recently argued for the importance of a good work ethic. I > >{ might argue instead that the "work ethic" is something of a pathology > >in > >{ this country, as well as a nice political instrument for keeping > >everyone > >{ too busy to cause any trouble. Nevertheless, I *am* interesting in > >how > >{ people manage to get specifically poetic work done, and I don't think > >I've > >{ ever seen a thread quite like that in all the time of been on the > >list. > >{ I'm not talking about poetic methods, which have been discussed from > >time > >{ to time, but about exactly how and when the work gets done. Do you > >get up > >{ early in the morning? Stay up late at night? Write during your lunch > >{ hour? "Steal" time while you're supposed to be doing other things at > >the > >{ office? Do you rely on bursts of inspiration, or set aside regular > >hours? > >{ Are regular hours necessary in order to prepare for (eventual) bursts > >of > >{ inspiration? > >{ > >{ I'd be especially interested in hearing how people manage to find time > >for > >{ poetic work in the face of other obligations like teaching or > >{ other wage-earning work, child care responsibilities, and so on. Do > >you > >{ try to "block out" other "distractions," or do you try to integrate > >poetry > >{ with other sorts of life activities? > >{ > >{ Lastly, do you actually think of poetry as work, or is play a better > >term? > >{ Or is the distinction an unnecessary one? > >{ > >{ Steve > > _________________________________________________________________ > Check out the coupons and bargains on MSN Offers! > http://shopping.msn.com/softcontent/softcontent.aspx?scmId=1418 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 16:00:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Rothenberg Subject: Re: Question about Harry Crosby and Kenneth Rexroth Poems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit there is a book called Devour The Sun by Twowindows Press that might help on Crosby, I am not sure. MR ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2004 2:51 PM Subject: Question about Harry Crosby and Kenneth Rexroth Poems > I need title and publication date of a Harry Crosby > poem that consists of repetitions of the word, > "black," surrounding the word, "sun," in a rectangle. > > I also need the title and publication date of a poem > by Kenneth Rexroth that consists entirely of words > made up of w (e.g., "wwwwwwww")--or maybe it's a poem > with a stanza of such words. . . . > > I need it for an entry I did for Burt Kimmelman's > Companion to Contemporary Literature. Much gratitude > to anyone who can help me out. > > --Bob G. > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! > http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 15:12:53 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christine Murray Subject: Arlington, TX Poetry Reading: Shin Yu Pai & Chris Murray MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Poetry Reading Shin Yu Pai & Chris Murray Saturday, 7 February 2004 at 7 p.m. Red River Room: 2nd Floor, UC University of Texas at Arlington Sponsored by the UTA Writing Center and the Chinese American Students Association. Organized by Kristina Graham. For directions or questions: cmurray@uta.edu Come on out and say hello! Best, chris murray http://texfiles.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 17:28:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Rothenberg Subject: Re: milkmag/rothenberg MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit can a link be put on the home page? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Sawyer & Lina ramona" To: Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2004 2:13 PM Subject: Re: milkmag/rothenberg new at milk magazine... Online chapbook: Preparing the Child's Arm for the Sky by Michael ROTHENBERG http://www.milkmag.org Also/ visual art by David HWANG Yana PAYUSOVA & August HIGHLAND poetry/ Michael McCLURE Jerome ROTHENBERG Daniel NESTER Ira COHEN Tom CLARK & Linh DINH, among others... coming soon: Yamamoto KANSUKE, Conveyor of the Impossible! ____________________________ milk magazine Larry Sawyer, editor Lina ramona Vitkauskas, fiction/Web ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 17:56:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Dowker Subject: Re: Question about Harry Crosby and Kenneth Rexroth Poems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The title of the Harry Crosby poem is "Photoheliograph" (from _Chariot of the Sun_, 1929). David alterra@rogers.com http://members.rogers.com/alterra Bob Grumman wrote: > I need title and publication date of a Harry Crosby > poem that consists of repetitions of the word, > "black," surrounding the word, "sun," in a rectangle. > > I also need the title and publication date of a poem > by Kenneth Rexroth that consists entirely of words > made up of w (e.g., "wwwwwwww")--or maybe it's a poem > with a stanza of such words. . . . > > I need it for an entry I did for Burt Kimmelman's > Companion to Contemporary Literature. Much gratitude > to anyone who can help me out. > > --Bob G. > > __________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 18:09:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: A Conversation with Marjorie Perloff (from Fulcrum) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed The Fall (#2) issue of Fulcrum (now out of print) featured Marjorie Perloff's conversation with me. This is now available at Perloff's EPC home page: http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/perloff/articles/mp_cb.html Thanks to Fulcrum editors Philip Nikolayev & Katia Kapovich. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 15:36:05 -0800 Reply-To: antrobin@clipper.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anthony Robinson Subject: Bernstein/Prosody In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.2.20040131174819.02fa8eb0@writing.upenn.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii An interview with Bernstein by David Caplan that discusses prosody is in the current Antioch Review, as part of a panel discussion on prosody and poetry. Tony __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 18:44:19 -0500 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: Bernstein/Perloff Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit thanks for posting.. just skimmed it... same O same O the sound of a left hand clapping ....... drn... ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 18:44:46 -0500 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: Bernstein/Perloff Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit thx for posting.. just skimmed it... same O same O the sound of a left hand clapping ....... drn... ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 17:09:43 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: tom bell Subject: Re: A Conversation with Marjorie Perloff (from Fulcrum) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is this what you were referencing, Stephen? tom bell '^-_'^-_'^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^'""-------^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Visiting poet at The VA TENNESSEE VALLEY HEALTH CARE SYSTEM ALVIN C. YORK CAMPUS Columnist for MAG http://www.muse-apprentice-guild.com/ Some not right for Hallmark poetry available through geezer.com http://www.geezer.com/vendor.html?vendorID=2203&psid=dceaec145a83fbd666061e3 9c05fdadd Section editor for PsyBC www.psybc.com http://www.metaphormetonym.com/ Write for the Health of It course at http://www.suite101.com/course.cfm/17413/seminar http://www.suite101.com/course.cfm/17413/overview/37900 not yet a crazy old man hard but not yet hardening of the art ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 10:55:12 +1100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alison Croggon Subject: Re: work/play habits In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 1/2/04 7:22 AM, "Steven Shoemaker" wrote: > Alison--What was the name of that novel you wrote > while the baby was sleeping? Hi Steven - it is a poetic novel about memory and fiction called "Navigatio". Out of print, unfortunately, but I have some copies hanging around if anyone is interested. I'm always fascinated by how artists work. I like that thing of having several projects bubbling at once; I saw a doco on Miro once, and how he would go to his studio every day and look around meditatively at various half finished paintings. Eventually he would choose one, according to how he felt, and work on that one. I don't usually worry when I'm not writing; I take it as a good sign. I assume that something is going on underneath, where I can't trace it. Though some people (Alan Sondheim seems to be one of those people) seem to just have this constant flow-through of stimulus to art, a constant circulation. I don't get why sometimes writing is just so easy that it's like taking dictation and at other times it is like pulling teeth. Best A Alison Croggon Editor, Masthead http://www.masthead.net.au Home page http://www.alisoncroggon.com Blog http://alisoncroggon.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 16:29:42 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Derek R Organization: derekrogerson.com Subject: Re: Work / play habits--to all & sundry In-Reply-To: <20040131181444.YCNP1944.imf25aec.mail.bellsouth.net@DBY2CM31> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't know what people mean when they talk about conviction (towards habitual practice) to write poetry -- is there conviction to speak? Wasn't it Bukowski who said writing poetry is like taking a good shit? What conviction? Writing poetry is action (utility) -- not reward/therapy. I believe poetry should be purely occasional. (Just like language.) So I don't believe in writing poetry for poetry's sake -- I write -- because I have something to say. Is that like being 'commissioned' (ie. historically)? I was always under the impression that poetry was something that you did ("it is finished.") like 'It was snowing / And it was *going* to snow'; a moving. thing I mean, u r what u r, right? Even if you are locked in a jail cell with no way to write you know yourself -- [ And my idea was that, (not that I have a savoir-complex or anything, rather for a good comparison), if you visited Jerusalem and walked away you were guaranteed not to be the Davidic Messiah. If The DM was in the Holy City he wasn't going to be 'passing thru unnoticed' or 'on vacation', etc. He would be coming back for a reason (with fire), and it would be the very next time you see him (ie. a *Second* Coming). So if you get in-and-out of Jerusalem ok, and nothing spectacular happens, then you're no DM. In the same way -- if you were locked in a jail cell with no way to get to Jerusalem, drugged, chained-to-the-floor, etc. you r what u r 'so that' ] and that's the power ('haile') which makes you do it. so I don't think there should be any 'checklist-behavior' -- any time-set-aside, vows, etc... If you need to seek the sign of truth *after* the acquisition of ideas then you are afraid to admit you exist (ie. Galatians; Spinoza). Never send to know for whom the bell tolls! In any case, a good shit is probably the best metaphor ('just do it'); the bathroom is the most useful spot in a house (action). ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 18:40:15 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Terrie Relf Subject: Re: Question about Harry Crosby and Kenneth Rexroth Poems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is this the same Harry Crosby who is a photographer? If so, he's my cousin. Ter ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Dowker" To: Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2004 2:56 PM Subject: Re: Question about Harry Crosby and Kenneth Rexroth Poems > The title of the Harry Crosby poem is "Photoheliograph" > (from _Chariot of the Sun_, 1929). > > David > > alterra@rogers.com > http://members.rogers.com/alterra > > Bob Grumman wrote: > > > I need title and publication date of a Harry Crosby > > poem that consists of repetitions of the word, > > "black," surrounding the word, "sun," in a rectangle. > > > > I also need the title and publication date of a poem > > by Kenneth Rexroth that consists entirely of words > > made up of w (e.g., "wwwwwwww")--or maybe it's a poem > > with a stanza of such words. . . . > > > > I need it for an entry I did for Burt Kimmelman's > > Companion to Contemporary Literature. Much gratitude > > to anyone who can help me out. > > > > --Bob G. > > > > __________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 21:48:58 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Work / play habits MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 01/31/04 12:54:28 PM, frazerv@BELLSOUTH.NET writes: > Murat, > > > > Now that I think a little more about it, nothing on my day job was more > challenging than writing a poem---except possibly for the two novels I wrote > on the job. Their challenge was the staying power required to complete a > long work. > > > > I did obtain several $35,000,000 Section 8 grants from HUD, seed grants for > new social service agencies, resolve inter-agency feuds that could have had > political repercussions, work in neighborhoods the morning after a drive-by > shooting had occurred, make paper trails for questionable deals between > agency commissioners and legislators---but none of these involved me as > intellectually as writing. They just distracted me from the challenge for a > time, while paying for my food, rent and (now) my pension. > Vernon, This is a very impressive list. Still, I agree with you. Writing a good poem is harder. I have an essay, "Is Writing a Job, Is a Poem a Product," which can be googled in the web if you write in my full name (Murat Nemet-Nejat). It relates to the question you are addressing in your response to David Kischenbaum. Murat ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 21:49:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Machlin Subject: Bergvall/Gordon/Daly February 6 Belladonna* NYC Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable enjoy BELLADONNA* FEBRUARY 6. 7:00 PM back at BLUESTOCKINGS with 3 fabulous performers and poets *Caroline Bergvall* **Catherine Daly** ***Nada Gordon*** Bluestockings Bookstore is at 172 Allen Street between Stanton and=20 Rivington in NYC=92s Lower East Side. Belladonna* requests a $7-10 donation, = which=20 goes to the poets, who in this case will have come from far (ENGLAND) and far (LA) and near (NYC). *** Caroline Bergvall was born on the Continent in 1962 and lives and works=20= in England. Some of her writings have appeared in Raddle Moon, Angel=20 Exhaust, Trois, Big Allis, PULP Faction, Object Permanence, and have also been featured in anthologies: Milk of Late (Equipage), Out of Everywhere=20 (Reality Street Editions), Language Alive 2 (Sound and Language) and Conductors=20= of Chaos (Picador). A writer of cross-disciplinary and bilingually sourced performances (English/French), she has also developed a number of installation and performance pieces in collaboration with visual=20 artists and sound artists and won the 1993 Live Art Award for her performance=20 Strange Passage (Equipage). Her text project, Goan Atom, is an ongoing interdisciplinary series of events and discrete texts, of which: Part I, Jets-Poupee has been published by Rempress, Ambient Fish is a net-text available on the EPC and it was also commissioned as a sound text installation for Root Festival, at Hull Time Based Arts in November,=20 1999. She is the Director of Performance Writing at Dartington College of=20 Arts. * Catherine Daly was sole proprietor of a technology consultancy,=20 developing intranets for Fortune 500 firms in New York and in Los Angeles. Her=20 first book of poems is DaDaDa (Salt Publishing, 2003). It is a one-volume=20 trilogy, the first of a set of three. Another book, Locket, is scheduled for publication by Tupelo Press in 2004. She was educated at Trinity=20 College and at Columbia University and has taught at Antioch LA and UCLA. * Nada Gordon's latest book, V. IMP. (Faux Press 2003), has been=20 described as "mood-riddled hijinx and impudent lyric protest" and "nonsense galore,=20= as in a bathhouse." With Gary Sullivan, she is the author of Swoon (Granary=20 Books 2001), a nonfiction e-pistolary multiform novel. She published two=20 books in 2001: Are Not Our Lowing Heifers Sleeker than Night Swollen Mushrooms? (Spuyten Duyvil), and Foriegnn Bodie (Detour). Ongoing obsessions=20 include song, odalisques, ornament, all forms of life. Her blog address is http://ululate.blogspot.com. *** Belladonna* is a feminist/innovative reading and publication series that promotes the work of women writers who are adventurous, experimental, politically involved, multi-form, multicultural, multi-gendered, unpredictable, dangerous with language (to the death machinery). In its=20= five year history, Belladonna* has featured such writers as Leslie Scalapino, Alice Notley, Erica Hunt, Fanny Howe, Mei-mei Berssenbrugge, Cecilia=20 Vicu=F1a, Lisa Jarnot, Camille Roy, Nicole Brossard, Abigail Child, Norma Cole,=20 Lynne Tillman and Carla Harryman among many other experimental and hybrid=20 women writers. Beyond being a platform for women writers, the curators promote work that is experimental in form, connects with other art forms, and is socially/politically active in content. Alongside the readings,=20 Belladonna* supports its artists by publishing commemorative pamphlets of their=20 work on the night of the event. Please contact us (Rachel Levitsky and Erica Kaufman) at belladonnaseries@yahoo.com to receive a catalog and be=20 placed on our list. *** Bluestockings is a radical bookstore, fair trade cafe, and activist=20 center in the Lower East Side of Manhattan. Through words, art, food, activism, education, and community, they strive to create a space that welcomes=20 and empowers all people. . . see more at=20 http://bluestockings.com/events.htm. Call 212-777-6028. **deadly nightshade, a cardiac and respiratory stimulant, having purplish-red flowers and black berries Belladonna* readings happen monthly between September and June ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 20:51:14 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Below the Serif of Indestructibility Comments: To: WRYTING-L Disciplines , spidertangle@yahoogroups.com Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v543) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Below the Serif of Indestructibility http://www.spidertangle.net/glyphletter/below_the_serif.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 22:43:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Net\par Empire MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Net\par Empire "For historical reasons, if you specify name, split can only create 676 separate files." The default naming convention allows 2028 separate files. i will love clara hielo internet\par internetwork towards Godard coherencies phenomenology incoherencies\par hole. Net dialog is a tangle of switches, sidetracks, private and\par Net accounts. The SOLAR increases nocturnal glow; HIELO LENS melds into\par psychological domain. Noise becomes integrated into REWRITE; the Net\par Net transmission speed and modes such as IRC, talk, ntalk, MUDs and \par out of existence, withdrawing from the Net, which is _always_ a with\par a Net friend, who continues to exist in this fashion.\par floods from the body, floods the Net as sites (and domains) find them-\par ographic mode found everywhere on the Net.\par I believe, on the Net; it continued through traceroute to surfnet.com \par third sexualities located from the middle of the Net files on, centered in\par 5. Synesthesia and the transformations of senses across the Net.\par substratum everywhere in the Net and alphabetic texts, discomforts of the\par 6. Defuge, burnouts and anomies on the Net.\par the Net files, descending into the substance of the imaginary in the more\par 9. Communities and communalities on the Net.\par mid-early Net texts on to the present.\par 13. The phenomenology of the architecture of the Net TCP/IP itself.\par about Net sentience and the clean and proper bodies of the datagrams.\par 17. Death on and off the Net, the physical body as obdurate and/or residue.\par all the way through the Net files and alphabetic texts, the subject \par destabilizations, the beyond of the earlier Net files, groping towards a\par the computer-program texts in the Net files, concentrating in particular on\par almost-symmetries of Net exchanges.\par 21. Phenomenology of emotional states, behaviors, and discourses on the Net.\par earliest accounts in the Net files of the same.\par the first three-sevenths of the Net text and alphabetic files, carrying the\par 16 colors although Xingstream had some difficulties. I downloaded Netscape\par 20b3 on top of Netscape 1.1 which worked and finally could get Xingstream\par the configuration of the winsock. I also ran Netscape 1.1 through it to\par nect to the Net, through the korn shell on Panix running fast and smooth.\par Net Weight Poem\par burrowing like the Net gopher (remember that, Veronica?). It's intersti-\par Netsplit detected at 12:55 am: (irc-2.mit.edu irc.usa.pipeline.com)\par dead. I will be on the Net yet, she said, To her quarry the storm. She\par <^V^> Crashing Netcruizer Lamer: StarLite\par <^V^> Crashing Netcruizer Lamer: UniBoy21\par <^V^> Crashing Netcruizer Lamer: SirVictor\par <^V^> Crashing Netcruizer Lamer: Ghostoff159\par <^V^> Crashing Netcruizer Lamer: Hueybot\par Bodies on the Net\par Bodies at the Net\par \tab bodies in the vicinity of the Net, bodies presencing,\par Bodies in the Net\par Bodies above the Net\par Bodies beneath the Net\par Bodies within the Net\par Bodies without the Net\par Bodies before the Net\par Bodies beyond the Net\par Bodies of the Net\par \tab of the Net of boundless bodies, of their fullness and speech,\par \tab of their other bodies, of their boundless Nets\par reiterative. The Net diffuses and collapses, differentiates and integ-\par But the "Net" doesn't do anything, neither diffuses nor collapses, etc.;\par there is no Net - only an accumulation of protocols, emanants, resonan-\par The ontology of the Net is UNCANNY, an absenting or problematic alterity;\par all. The imaginary is addictive; Net users become USERS, circulating\par Net; other references include ghosts, geist, ectoplasms, prostheses, and\par scious. I no longer believe that "Net users become USERS" - no longer be-\par lieve in the unary Net of course - and addiction can easily be deconstruc-\par PROPER NAMES circulate throughout the Net, the promise of TRUTH or BEAUTY,\par every possible Net world in a continuous morph, and every KIND is simulta-\par Azure you'd have Alure. If Nettime merged with Cybermind you'd have Net-\par intersperses OPEN DIGITAL NETWORK PROTOCOL with acronyms; there are no\par In the earlier sections of the Internet Text, I have stressed three\par Theoretical Work in the Internet Text (Locations)\par 0. Clara Hielo Internet.\par from the very beginnings of the Internet Text, these terms focused upon\par Commentary: Clara Hielo Internet does not exist. She is my ideal woman. \par growth of the Internet Text, which, at this point, was just beginning.]\par burned into the Internet itself, wires laid across the skin, the skin\par The GREAT BEYOND is the horizon of the Internet, always farther, always\par mind. If the Internet merged with the London Times, you'd have Lonernet\par CLARA HIELO INTERNET\par I am CLARA HIELO INTERNET, moderator of this and every other list.\par INTERNET, AROUSED, IN ECSTATIC TRANSFORMATION, CUM QUEER FOR EACH AND\par HIELO I BECOME BLOOD FLUID INTERNET...) \par I'll COM for you. PING. INTERNET everything is possible. She was getting\par (Alan): Packets continuing momentarily throughout the network, while\par (Alan): Beyond the directness of communication, the network moving into\par neural networking, intelligent agents, and wall-crashing simultaneously. \par Tiffany: which we hear in our everyday networking and speaking\par my veins. My teeth mouth network layers. Now you may read my nerves.\par networks\par bodies of breasts and networks" \par a bit of movement, neural networking, a bit of stasis, world shutting-down\par internetwork towards Godard coherencies phenomenology incoherencies\par __