========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 23:20:46 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Crockett Subject: Re: diarrhea of the mouth In-Reply-To: <20070201030554.xlr53pgbwm1w8s0w@webmail.frontiernet.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks, member. You've saved me another day of having to look at myself in the mirror. Ricejunk2@frontiernet.net wrote: > Dear members: > > Some people have diarrhea of the mouth. It is a medical condition, but > it doesn't mean we all have to pay attention to, well, the product of > said medical condition. That is what toilets are for. And delete > buttons, ok. There is always the "I WIN" button... available for when > your computer OR another human thinks it has the best of you. > > Poetry discussions are so much better than crap-slinging. Isn't there > enough raw-ness in language and its composition, that we can avoid the > raw-sewage stuff? I know there are more critical discussions, > especially of ideas (which are lacking in other conversations these > days), in this listserv's future. Otherwise, why are any of us here. > > Write on! Listen and read and hear and say and smell (if you > dare)...all that there is for you here online and everywhere... But > please stay home if you need to be near the crapper, T. F. Rice > > > "We pretend the raw bloom remains > unshattered > by the ravishing dregs of lost humanity" > ...just a little something i wrote when i was a teenager... he-hee... > we havent come very far since then as a human race... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 00:19:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Columnist Molly Ivins Dies (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="0-2087307194-1170307158=:8549" This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --0-2087307194-1170307158=:8549 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 22:35:39 -0500 From: moderator@PORTSIDE.ORG To: PORTSIDE@LISTS.PORTSIDE.ORG Subject: Columnist Molly Ivins Dies Columnist Molly Ivins Dies By JOHN MORITZ STAR-TELEGRAM AUSTIN BUREAU Star-Telegram (Ft. Worth, TX) http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/16591107.htm January 31, 2007 AUSTIN =E2=80=94 Molly Ivins, whose biting columns mixed liberal populism with an irreverent Texas wit, died at 5:30 p.m. Wednesday at her home in Austin after an up- and-down battle with breast cancer she had waged for seven years. She was 62. Ms. Ivins, the Star-Telegram's political columnist for nine years ending in 2001, had written for the New York Times, the Dallas Times-Herald and Time magazine and had long been a sought-after pundit on the television talk-show circuit to provide a Texas slant on issues ranging from President Bush=E2=80=99s pedigree to the culture wars rooted in the 1960s. "She was magical in her writing," said Mike Blackman, a former Star-Telegram executive editor who hired Ms. Ivins at the newspaper=E2=80=99s Austin bureau in 1992, a few months after the Times-Herald ceased publication. "She could turn a phrase in such a way that a pretty hard- hitting point didn=E2=80=99t hurt so bad." A California native who moved to Houston as a young child with her family, Ms. Ivins was diagnosed with breast cancer in 1999. Two years later after enduring a radical mastectomy and rounds of chemotherapy, Ms. Ivins was given a 70 percent chance of remaining cancer-free for five years. At the time, she said she liked the odds. But the cancer recurred in 2003, and again last year. In recent weeks, she had suspended her twice-weekly syndicated column, allowing guest writers to use the space while she underwent further treatment. She made a brief return to writing in mid-January, urging readers to resist President Bush=E2=80=99s plan to increase the number of U.S. troops deployed to Iraq. She likened her call to an old-fashioned "newspaper crusade." "We are the people who run this country," Ms Ivins said in the column published in the Jan. 14 edition of the Star-Telegram. "We are the deciders. And every single day, every single one of us needs to step outside and take some action to help stop this war. "Raise hell," she continued. "Think of something to make the ridiculous look ridiculous. Make our troops know we=E2=80=99re for them and are trying to get them out of there. Hit the streets to protest Bush's proposed surge." She ended the piece by endorsing the peace march in Washington scheduled for Saturday. 01-27 "We need people in the streets, banging pots and pans and demanding, "Stop it, now!' " she wrote. The spice of Texas Born Mary Tyler Ivins on Aug. 30, 1944, in Monterey, Calif., Ms. Ivins was raised in the upscale River Oaks section of Houston. She earned her journalism degree at elite Smith College in Massachusetts in 1965. From there she ventured to Minnesota, taking a job as a police reporter for the Minneapolis Tribune. Growing weary of the winters in the Upper Great Lakes and missing the spice of Texas food and its politics, Ms. Ivins moved to Austin to become co-editor of the Texas Observer, long considered the state=E2=80=99s liberal conscience. Nadine Eckhardt, the former wife of the late Texas novelist Billy Lee Bramer and who later married former U.S. Rep. Bob Eckhardt of Houston, said Ivins soon made herself a fixture in the Austin political and cocktail party scene in the early 1970s. "That=E2=80=99s where she became the Molly Ivins as we=E2=80=99ve come to know her," said Eckhardt, an Ivins friend for nearly four decades. "The Observer had such wonderful writers doing such wonderful stories at the time, and Molly was always right in the middle of everything." Her writing flair caught the attention of the New York Times, which hired her to cover city hall, then later moved her to the statehouse bureau in Albany. Later, she was assigned to the Times=E2=80=99 Rocky Mountain bureau in Denver. Even though she wrote the Times=E2=80=99 obituary for Elvis Presley in 1977, Ms. Ivins said later that she and the sometimes stodgy Times proved to be a mismatch. In a 2002 interview with the Star-Telegram, Ms. Ivins recalled that she would write about something that "squawked like a $2 fiddle" only to have a Times editor rewrite it to say "as an inexpensive instrument." Ms Ivins said she would mention a "beer belly" and The Times would substitute "a protuberant abdomen.=E2=80=9D So Ms. Ivins returned to Austin in 1982 to become a columnist for the Dallas Times-Herald and reconnecting with such political figures as Ann Richards, who would later become governor, and Bob Bullock, then the hard- drinking state comptroller who later wielded great power as lieutenant governor. Trademark language The column provided Ms. Ivins the freedom to express her views with the colorful language that would become her trademark. She called such figures as Ross Perot, former U.S. Sen. John Tower and ex-Gov. Bill Clements "runts with attitudes." As a candidate for governor, George W. Bush became "Shrub," a nicknamed she never tired of using. Surprised became "womperjawed." A visibly angry person would "throw a walleyed fit." Ms. Ivins, who was single and had no children, told readers about her first bout with cancer in a matter- of-fact afterword in an otherwise ordinary column. "I have contracted an outstanding case of breast cancer, from which I fully intend to recover," she wrote on Dec. 14, 1999. "I don=E2=80=99t need get-well cards, but I would like the beloved women readers to do something for me: Go. Get. The. Damn. Mammogram. Done." Ms. Ivins authored three books and co-authored a fourth. She was a three-time finalist for a Pulitzer Prize and had served on Amnesty International=E2=80=99s Journalism Network, but the iconoclastic writer often said that her two highest honors were being banned from the conservative campus of Texas A&M University and having the Minneapolis police name their mascot pig after her when she covered the department as a reporter during one of her first jobs in the newspaper business. Funeral arrangements were pending. John Moritz, 512-476-4294 jmoritz@star-telegram.com =C2=A9 2007 Star-Telegram.com and wire service sources. All Rights Reserved. http://www.mercurynews.com _____________________________________________ Portside aims to provide material of interest to people on the left that will help them to interpret the world and to change it. Submit via email: moderator@portside.org Submit via the Web: portside.org/submit Frequently asked questions: portside.org/faq Subscribe: portside.org/subscribe Unsubscribe: portside.org/unsubscribe Account assistance: portside.org/contact Search the archives: portside.org/archive --0-2087307194-1170307158=:8549-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 21:30:34 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nico Vassilakis Subject: Seattle Subtext: Lindsay Hill & CE Putnam 2/7/07 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Subtext continues its monthly series of experimental writing with readings by Lindsay Hill & Chris Putnam at Richard Hugo House on Wednesday, February 7, 2007. Donations for admission will be taken at the door on the evening of the performance. The reading starts at 7:30pm. Lindsay Hill was born in San Francisco in 1952. Graduate of Bard College. Began writing under influence of Robert Duncan, Tarn, Rexroth and Rilke. First book Avelaval (Oyez, Berkeley 1974). Work has appeared in numerous journals including Sulfur, Caliban and New American Writing. Four other books including most recent Contango (Singing Horse). Past co-editor of poetry/poetics journal Facture. Current focus on sentence-based collage writing. Living in Portland, OR with wife, Nita, and children Ian and Helena. Member of the Spare Room poetry collective. C.E. Putnam maintains P.I.S.O.R. (The Putnam Institute for Space Opera Research). Some of his chapbooks include Manic Box (2001), Did you ever hear of a thing like that? (2001), Things Keep Happening (2003), and Crawlspace, a forthcoming collaboration with Daniel Comiskey. For this February reading, C.E. Putnam will read cosmic-sex/earthly-love poems. See http://www.pisor-industries.org The future Subtext schedule is: March 7, 2007 Rob Fitterman (NYC) & Bryant Mason April 4, 2007 TBD May 2, 2007 Charles Alexander (Tucson AZ) and Tim Risher June 6, 2007 Subtext 13th Anniversary Reading - Details TBA For info on these & other Subtext events, see our website: http://www.speakeasy.org/~subtext This Subtext event is co-sponsored by Richard Hugo House. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 21:43:58 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Re: Columnist Molly Ivins Dies (fwd) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This is sad, indeed. For me, ranks up there with the passing of so many "heroic" voices. AJ --- Alan Sondheim wrote: > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 22:35:39 -0500 > From: moderator@PORTSIDE.ORG > To: PORTSIDE@LISTS.PORTSIDE.ORG > Subject: Columnist Molly Ivins Dies > > Columnist Molly Ivins Dies > By JOHN MORITZ STAR-TELEGRAM AUSTIN BUREAU > > Star-Telegram (Ft. Worth, TX) > http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/16591107.htm > January 31, 2007 > > AUSTIN — Molly Ivins, whose biting columns mixed > liberal populism with an irreverent Texas wit, died > at > 5:30 p.m. Wednesday at her home in Austin after an > up- > and-down battle with breast cancer she had waged for > seven years. She was 62. > > Ms. Ivins, the Star-Telegram's political columnist > for > nine years ending in 2001, had written for the New > York > Times, the Dallas Times-Herald and Time magazine and > had long been a sought-after pundit on the > television > talk-show circuit to provide a Texas slant on issues > ranging from President Bush’s pedigree to the > culture > wars rooted in the 1960s. > > "She was magical in her writing," said Mike > Blackman, a > former Star-Telegram executive editor who hired Ms. > Ivins at the newspaper’s Austin bureau in 1992, a > few > months after the Times-Herald ceased publication. > "She > could turn a phrase in such a way that a pretty > hard- > hitting point didn’t hurt so bad." > > A California native who moved to Houston as a young > child with her family, Ms. Ivins was diagnosed with > breast cancer in 1999. Two years later after > enduring a > radical mastectomy and rounds of chemotherapy, Ms. > Ivins was given a 70 percent chance of remaining > cancer-free for five years. At the time, she said > she > liked the odds. > > But the cancer recurred in 2003, and again last > year. > In recent weeks, she had suspended her twice-weekly > syndicated column, allowing guest writers to use the > space while she underwent further treatment. She > made a > brief return to writing in mid-January, urging > readers > to resist President Bush’s plan to increase the > number > of U.S. troops deployed to Iraq. She likened her > call > to an old-fashioned "newspaper crusade." > > "We are the people who run this country," Ms Ivins > said > in the column published in the Jan. 14 edition of > the > Star-Telegram. "We are the deciders. And every > single > day, every single one of us needs to step outside > and > take some action to help stop this war. > > "Raise hell," she continued. "Think of something to > make the ridiculous look ridiculous. Make our troops > know we’re for them and are trying to get them out > of > there. Hit the streets to protest Bush's proposed > surge." > > She ended the piece by endorsing the peace march in > Washington scheduled for Saturday. 01-27 "We need > people in the streets, banging pots and pans and > demanding, "Stop it, now!' " she wrote. > > The spice of Texas > > Born Mary Tyler Ivins on Aug. 30, 1944, in Monterey, > Calif., Ms. Ivins was raised in the upscale River > Oaks > section of Houston. She earned her journalism degree > at > elite Smith College in Massachusetts in 1965. From > there she ventured to Minnesota, taking a job as a > police reporter for the Minneapolis Tribune. > > Growing weary of the winters in the Upper Great > Lakes > and missing the spice of Texas food and its > politics, > Ms. Ivins moved to Austin to become co-editor of the > Texas Observer, long considered the state’s > liberal > conscience. > > Nadine Eckhardt, the former wife of the late Texas > novelist Billy Lee Bramer and who later married > former > U.S. Rep. Bob Eckhardt of Houston, said Ivins soon > made > herself a fixture in the Austin political and > cocktail > party scene in the early 1970s. > > "That’s where she became the Molly Ivins as > we’ve come > to know her," said Eckhardt, an Ivins friend for > nearly > four decades. "The Observer had such wonderful > writers > doing such wonderful stories at the time, and Molly > was > always right in the middle of everything." > > Her writing flair caught the attention of the New > York > Times, which hired her to cover city hall, then > later > moved her to the statehouse bureau in Albany. Later, > she was assigned to the Times’ Rocky Mountain > bureau in > Denver. > > Even though she wrote the Times’ obituary for > Elvis > Presley in 1977, Ms. Ivins said later that she and > the > sometimes stodgy Times proved to be a mismatch. In a > 2002 interview with the Star-Telegram, Ms. Ivins > recalled that she would write about something that > "squawked like a $2 fiddle" only to have a Times > editor > rewrite it to say "as an inexpensive instrument." Ms > Ivins said she would mention a "beer belly" and The > Times would substitute "a protuberant abdomen.” > > So Ms. Ivins returned to Austin in 1982 to become a > columnist for the Dallas Times-Herald and > reconnecting > with such political figures as Ann Richards, who > would > later become governor, and Bob Bullock, then the > hard- > drinking state comptroller who later wielded great > power as lieutenant governor. > > Trademark language > > The column provided Ms. Ivins the freedom to express > her views with the colorful language that would > become > her trademark. She called such figures as Ross > Perot, > former U.S. Sen. John Tower and ex-Gov. Bill > Clements > "runts with attitudes." As a candidate for governor, > George W. Bush became "Shrub," a nicknamed she never > tired of using. > > Surprised became "womperjawed." A visibly angry > person > would "throw a walleyed fit." > > Ms. Ivins, who was single and had no children, told > readers about her first bout with cancer in a > matter- > of-fact afterword in an otherwise ordinary column. > > "I have contracted an outstanding case of breast > cancer, from which I fully intend to recover," she > wrote on Dec. 14, 1999. "I don’t need get-well > cards, > but I would like the beloved women readers to do > something for me: Go. Get. The. Damn. Mammogram. > Done." > > Ms. Ivins authored three books and co-authored a > fourth. She was a three-time finalist for a Pulitzer > Prize and had served on Amnesty International’s > Journalism Network, but the iconoclastic writer > often > said that her two highest honors were being banned > from > the conservative campus of Texas A&M University and > having the Minneapolis police name their mascot pig > after her when she covered the department as a > reporter > during one of her first jobs in the newspaper > business. > > Funeral arrangements were pending. > > John Moritz, 512-476-4294 > > jmoritz@star-telegram.com > > © 2007 Star-Telegram.com and wire service sources. > All > Rights Reserved. http://www.mercurynews.com > > _____________________________________________ > > Portside aims to provide material of interest > to people on the left that will help them to > interpret the world and to change it. > > Submit via email: moderator@portside.org > Submit via the Web: portside.org/submit > Frequently asked questions: portside.org/faq > Subscribe: portside.org/subscribe > Unsubscribe: portside.org/unsubscribe > Account assistance: portside.org/contact > Search the archives: portside.org/archive > --- ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your question on www.Answers.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 06:15:06 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: FW: Re: FEB 1 VIRTUAL MARCH ON WASHINGTON (Stop Escalation) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed On Thursday, February 1st - just days before the Senate votes on the escalation - there's going to be a massive virtual march on Washington. We're going to make 1 million contacts to Congress. Can you join us? Click below to sign up to call your senators. http://pol.moveon.org/virtualmarch Just click here to start: http://pol.moveon.org/virtualmarch/ _________________________________________________________________ Laugh, share and connect with Windows Live Messenger http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwme0020000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://imagine-msn.com/messenger/launch80/default.aspx?locale=en-us&source=hmtagline ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 06:32:41 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: aaron tieger Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 30 Jan 2007 to 31 Jan 2007 (#2007-32) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'm not so sure we should do this. We all know that Bill's it, but as I say on my blog (aarontieger.blogspot.com): "Boston's best poets - the ones who most successfully evoke Boston (among other things - have all existed outside of any institution, if not opposed to one. I'm thinking of Wieners, Jonas, Corbett. Columbus Square Journal or Joe Torra's "Brisk Walk to Harvard Square" are so wonderful because they evince their sense of place in a completely unsanctioned capacity. To attempt to render such life official (or to attempt to render it in an official capacity) is laughable." Best, Aaron Tieger Linda Norton wrote: If you would like to be part of a write-in campaign for Bill Corbett (who already *is* the poet laureate of Boston--Councilman John Tobin just doesn't know it), here are some email addresses: letter@globe.com Letters to the Editor, Boston Globe john@votejohntobin.com John Tobin dave@votejohntobin.com Dave Isberg, Chief of Staff If you are from Boston, as I am, be sure to mention the neighborhood/parish where you grew up or live now. --- POETICS automatic digest system wrote: > There are 28 messages totalling 1531 lines in this issue. > > Topics of the day: > > 1. Silliman's Blog > 2. Fwd: Ash, by Alison Croggon > 3. The Fib at Saline (Salt Publishing) About Angel Exhaust 19 (2) > 4. Jen's Fib At Saline Part 2 > 5. Nomadics blog > 6. EDWARD HIRSCH at the Creative Writing Workshop, Brazil > 7. Take 2 seconds to SAVE THE NEW GLOBE! > 8. Fwd: Otoliths issue four > 9. a conversation with ALICE NOTLEY on trance, tarot and poetry > ()()()()()()()() > 10. Silliman's blog/Poet Laureate of Boston > 11. http://irasciblepoet.blogspot.com/ (2) > 12. Jed Perl on Laissez-Faire Aesthetics (2) > 13. Homophobia... (3) > 14. please remove me from list- unsubscribe (2) > 15. Jim Eisenreich (3) > 16. jed perl article > 17. diarrhea of the mouth > 18. Larry's poetry forum > 19. Poems on Scapegoats > 20. New Book: Betsy Andrews' NEW JERSEY > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 21:00:13 -0800 > From: Ron Silliman > Subject: Silliman's Blog > > http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ > > RECENT POSTS > > Volver – > a film with women > in every major role > > May Day – > Robert Kelly > and the question of > poems vs. poetry > > Kenny Goldsmith > writes a blog > on uncreative writing > for Poetry Magazine! > > Babel > and the ensemble film > of globalization > > Experimental Form > and Issues of Accessibility > (Susanne Dyckman, Rusty Morrison, > Maxine Chernoff, Paul Hoover, > and Jaime Robles) > > Daisy Fried > should win > the National Book Critics Circle Award > by acclamation > > Confusing character transference > with reading > > Nathaniel Mackey’s > Splay Anthem > has to be read aloud > > IFLIFE, the poem, > is Bob Perelman’s love-hate story > with the whole of poetry > > A guide to Bob Perelman’s > Guide to Homage to Sextus Propertius > > IFLIFE, the book, > a dizzying display of mastery > > > http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 21:46:38 +1100 > From: Alison Croggon > Subject: Fwd: Ash, by Alison Croggon > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: David Lloyd > Date: Jan 31, 2007 6:28 PM > Subject: Ash, by Alison Croggon > To: UKPOETRY@listserv.muohio.edu > > > > > birds are returning line by line > near the river their shadows gather > > black and still where water sifts > silver on ash ash on silver > > lovely the creatures of light springing down > from cloud to home > > neither suspended nor in motion > brick and wood are things of flame > > fire remembered and foretold > making and ending > > (from: Translations from Nowhere) > > Ash, poems by Alison Croggon, is now available from Cusp Books. > $10.00 (or UKP 5.00, or EU 8.00, or AU $13.00), including postage, > from me at the address below. Please e-mail back-channel and I will > send in advance of your cheque or money order. > > Also available from Cusp Books: Sill, by David Lloyd ($8.00, incl. > p&p). Forthcoming this Spring: I ran from it and was still in it, by > Fred Moten; and Act Zero, by Alfred Arteaga. ($8.00 each, $30.00 for > the set of 4). > > > > David Lloyd > 3020 Effie Street > Los Angeles > CA 90026 > > 323-644-1317 (H) > 909-964-9946 (C) > > > > -- > Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au > Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com > Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 19:55:02 +0900 > From: Jesse Glass > Subject: The Fib at Saline (Salt Publishing) About Angel Exhaust 19 > > Here's a note I just sent to Chris Emery of Salt regarding a posting by > "Jen" about Angel Exhaust 19. > > Hey Chris-- > > The posting on Angel Exhaust is wrong. The ending, on page 142 of issue > 19 goes like this: > > Methan: Why is it called Devastate your Aunt Jeremy? > Manly: It was a misundertanding between the two editors. > Methan: Are you going to explain the poetic landscape, and your spectrum > allotment, as a way of telling the reader what to expect? > Manly: They probably wouldn't know what to expect even if we disclosed > all that. > Methan: So what's the poetry like? > Manly: It is full of wonderfully sibilant s and amazingly lateral l > sounds. Let me expand on that if you will. Corcoran is like Corcoran. > Glass is like Glass. Holman is like Holman. Holman is more like Holman > than like Morris. > Methan: I've never heard of them. > Manly: Maybe you should read Angel Exhaust. > > Not a word in Duncan's back page note about Mssrs. Philpot or Nolan. > > Jen's telling a fib that you should correct to set the record straight. > > Jesse Glass > > Take a look at "Jen's" posting at Saline and you'll see what a little > creative fibbing can accomplish. > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 20:14:31 +0900 > From: Jesse Glass > Subject: Jen's Fib At Saline Part 2 > > http://saltpublishing.com/saline/index.php?topic=235.0 > > There's the link, but here's the ending of Duncan's notice as "Jen" > tells it: > > Methan: Why is it called Devastate your Aunt Jeremy? > Manly: It was a misunderstanding between the two editors. > > [The next two lines don't appear in Duncan's original, but are entirely > "Jen's" invention!] > > Methan: Could we just describe the individual poets? > Manly: Poets like Philpott and Nolan are too overwhelming and intricate > to be described in a few words. > > Methan: I've never heard of them. > Manly: Maybe you should read Angel Exhaust. > > Why would "Jen" fib like this? > > Jesse Glass > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 08:11:25 -0500 > From: Pierre Joris > Subject: Nomadics blog > > Recent Nomadics posts can be read here: http://pjoris.blogspot.com > > Philippe Lacoue-Labarthe (1940-2007) > Chicago Poetry Reading Online > Pascal Bruckner on Ayaan Hirsi Ali > Wolfgang Iser (1926-2007) > Biermann & Berlin > Rain Taxi Auction! > an art of precarious balance > > be well. > > Pierre > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > "As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, > more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some > great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their > heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by > a downright moron." -- H.L. Mencken (1880-1956) > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > For updates on readings, etc. check my current events page: > http://albany.edu/~joris/CurrentEvents.html > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > Pierre Joris > 244 Elm Street > Albany NY 12202 > h: 518 426 0433 > c: 518 225 7123 > o: 518 442 40 71 > Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 > email: joris@albany.edu > http://pierrejoris.com > Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= > =3D=3D=3D=3D > "Fascism should more properly > be called corporatism,since it is the > merger of state and corporate power." > =97 Benito Mussolini > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= > =3D=3D=3D=3D > Pierre Joris > 244 Elm Street > Albany NY 12202 > h: 518 426 0433 > c: 518 225 7123 > o: 518 442 40 71 > Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 > email: joris@albany.edu > http://pierrejoris.com > Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 06:02:48 -0800 > From: Ram Devineni > Subject: EDWARD HIRSCH at the Creative Writing Workshop, Brazil > > Dear Friends: I want to announce a new > workshop/retreat in Brazil. More information at > http://www.creativewritingbrazil.org > > > EDWARD HIRSCH will be teaching at the creative writing > workshop in Brazil from July 9-16, 2007. > Participate in a week-long poetry workshop with Edward > Hirsch and a translation class on Brazilian poets > Carlos Drummond de Andrade and Joao Cabral de Melo > Neto. Discussions on Elizabeth Bishop in Brazil and > tours of important cultural sites and literary > landmarks. Also, casual get togethers with leading > contemporary Brazilian poets, editors, writers, > translators, and publishers. > > Creative Writing Brazil is an unique literary workshop > in Sao Paulo, Brazil organized by Rattapallax magazine > and Academia Interncional de Cinema. The workshops are > run by leading American and Brazilian poets, writers > and educators and conducted in English. The purpose of > the workshop is to experience the culture of Brazil > and produce new and complex literary work. Poets and > writers who have participated in our trips to Brazil > include Pulitzer Prize winning poet Yusef Komunyakaa, > Breytan Breytanbach, Jerome Rothenberg, Cecilia > Vicuna, Edwin Torres, Nathalie Handal, and Poetry > Wales editor Robert Minhinnick. > > ------ > Edward Hirsch is a poet and critic. He has published > six books of poems: For the Sleepwalkers (1981), Wild > Gratitude (1986), which won the National Book Critics > Circle Award, The Night Parade (1989), Earthly > Measures (1994), On Love (1998), and Lay Back the > Darkness (2003). He has also written four prose books: > How to Read a Poem and Fall in Love with Poetry > (1999), a national bestseller, Responsive Reading > (1999), The Demon and the Angel: Searching for the > Source of Artistic Inspiration (2002), and Poet's > Choice (2006). He is the editor of Transforming > Vision: Writers on Art (1994) and Theodore Roethke's > Selected Poems (2005). He is also the co-editor of A > William Maxwell Portrait: Memories and Appreciations > (2004). He has received the Prix de Rome, a Guggenheim > Fellowship, the American Academy of Arts and Letters > Award for Literature, and a MacArthur Fellowship. He > taught for eighteen years at the University of > Houston, and is now the fourth president of the John > Simon Guggenheim Memorial Foundation. > ----- > > Elizabeth Bishop in Brazil > > Elizabeth Bishop lived in Brazil more or less > continuously from 1951 to 1966 and then intermittently > to 1971. The country functioned as a necessary escape > from the deprived and anxious world of her early > childhood. Creative Writing Brazil will have a > discussion about Bishop's life and work in Brazil. We > can also assist you with your travel plans to visit > Elizabeth Bishop's house in Ouro Preto and other noted > Bishop landmarks in Brazil. Also, introduce you to > renowned Bishop scholars and translators of her work. > ----- > > Tour of Sao Paulo & Salon Reading > > Throughout the week, everyone will be having casual > get togethers with leading Brazilian poets, editors, > writers, and publishers. An important aspect of the > workshop is an interaction between participants and > their contemporary counterparts in Brazil. You will > visit important cultural sites, bookstores, and > literary landmarks. All participants will have an > opportunity to read at the Salons in Sao Paulo and New > York City. Also, Rattapallax magazine will assist with > the publication of the work produced during the > workshops in literary and online journals. > ----- > > Festa Literaria Internacional de Parati (FLIP) > > FLIP is a leading and truly international literary > jamborees, known for the outstanding quality of its > guest authors, for the overwhelming enthusiasm of its > audiences, and for the town's relaxed hospitality. > FLIP has continued to attract some of the world's > finest authors including Toni Morrison, Don DeLillo, > Salman Rushdie, Martin Amis, Margaret Atwood, Paul > Auster, Michael Ondaatje, alongside living Brazilian > legends such as Chico Buarque and Caetano Veloso. The > festival is held in Parati is a colonial sea-side town > nestled between the turquoise waters of Ilha Grande > Bay and vast swathes of unspoilt Atlantic rainforest. > Only a few hours from Sao Paulo. > > Attend the Creative Writing Workshop and FLIP! We plan > to organize a trip to FLIP and will help you with your > travel plans to the festival. Must register early > because the festival sells out. > > Please send future emails to > devineni@rattapallax.com for press > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 06:28:20 -0800 > From: Ram Devineni > Subject: Take 2 seconds to SAVE THE NEW GLOBE! > > Dear Friend, > > The New Globe Theater needs your help. If we do not > act now, we will forever lose the opportunity to > create an inspiring cultural icon in New York Harbor! > > On Governors Island sits a dilapidated military > fortification ... and it happens to have the identical > blueprint as Shakespeare's Globe Theatre. We want to > restore the fort and re-imagine the open courtyard as > a vibrant performing arts center, however the National > Park Service is about to disallow this proposal. > > The National Park Service stresses that the monument > belongs to the American people - so let us make sure > that they can't ignore what we want! click here: > http://www.newglobe.org/campaign/ > > In the spirit of placing the Statue of Liberty onto > the 1811 Fort Wood, let us transform this military > fort into a cultural beacon. > > The New Globe proposal has received the backing of > hundreds of individuals and organizations, from > Senators Clinton and Schumer to Congressman Nadler and > Community Board #1, from actors (such as Al Pacino, > Kevin Kline, Mark Rylance, Ralph Fiennes, Estelle > Parsons, Melvin Van Peebles, Sarah Jessica Parker, and > Philip Seymour Hoffman) to artistic directors (Sam > Mendes, Oskar Eustis, Kenny Leon, and Sir Peter Hall). > Not only has New York's preservation community > embraced the proposal (e.g., NYC Landmarks > Preservation Commission, and Municipal Art Society), > but also a diverse range of individuals from war > veterans to acting students to G.I. army brats. For > more information, see www.newglobe.org. > > I ask you to join me and all of our supporters in > urging the National Park Service to be visionary and > imaginative! Your action today truly makes a > difference in our ongoing efforts to create a new > cultural destination in New York Harbor. I hope to see > you at opening night. > > Sincerely, > Dr. Barbara Romer > Founder and CEO of the The New Globe Theater > > Ram Devineni, Publisher of Rattapallax > > Please send future emails to > devineni@rattapallax.com for press > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 09:49:15 -0500 > From: Tom Beckett > Subject: Fwd: Otoliths issue four > > =20 > =20 > =20 > > Issue four of Otoliths has just gone live & is as diverse as ever. > =20 > This issue contains text & visual work from Vernon Frazer, Eileen Tabios, M= > =C3=A1rton Kopp=C3=A1ny, Katrinka Moore, Jnana Hudson, Jeff Harrison, > Peter=20= > Ciccariello, Amanda Laughtland, Carol Jenkins, Jean Vengua, Dion Farquhar, E= > d Higgins, David Prater, Carl Baker, Elizabeth Kate Switaj, Elisa Gabbert > &=20= > Kathleen Rooney, Samuel Wharton, Spencer Selby, Martin Edmond, Ay=C5=9Feg= > =C3=BCl T=C3=B6zeren, Daniel f. Bradley, The Pines, Alexander Jorgensen, Jon= > athan Hayes, John Mercuri Dooley, David-Baptiste Chirot, Richard Kostelanetz= > , nick-e melville, Phil Primeau, J.D. Nelson, Mikhail Magazinnik, Nicholas M= > anning, Andrew Topel, Kristin Hannaford, Karin Kroetlinger, C. Mehrl Bennett= > , Kevin Doran, Ed Schenk, Paul Siegell, Raymond Farr, Suzan Sari, Suzan Sari= > & Jukka-Pekka Kervinen, Jukka-Pekka Kervinen, Caleb Puckett, Tom Beckett, K= > eith Kumasen Abbott, MTC Cronin, Bob Marcacci, Thomas Fink, Nico Vassilakis,= > Vernon Frazer & Michael Rothenberg, & Ray Craig.=20 > =20 > Hie there & enjoy! > =20 > & a reminder that print editions of the earlier issues are available from th= > e Otoliths Shopfront at Lulu. > =20 > Also, later in February, the book publishing arm (?) of Otoliths will be bri= > nging out new collections from Jordan Stempleman, Vernon Frazer, Nico Vassil= > akis & harry k stammer. Let me just say that they're all fantastic.=20 > =20 > Mark Young > ________________________________________________________________________ > Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security t= > ools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, fr= > ee AOL Mail and more. > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 13:10:18 EST > From: "C. A. Conrad" > Subject: a conversation with ALICE NOTLEY on trance, tarot and poetry > ()()()()()()()() > > > a conversation with ALICE NOTLEY on trance, tarot and poetry > > ()()()()()()()()()((((( O )))))()()()()()()()()() > > This e-mail conversation with Alice Notley and CAConrad took place during > January, 2007 > > Hope you enjoy it! > > Go to: _http://phillysound.blogspot.com/2007_01_01_phillysound_archive.html_ > > (http://phillysound.blogspot.com/2007_01_01_phillysound_archive.html) > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 10:10:53 -0800 > From: linda norton > Subject: Silliman's blog/Poet Laureate of Boston > > If you would like to be part of a write-in campaign for Bill Corbett (who > already *is* the poet laureate of Boston--Councilman John Tobin just doesn't > know it), here are some email addresses: > > letter@globe.com Letters to the Editor, Boston Globe > > john@votejohntobin.com John Tobin > > dave@votejohntobin.com Dave Isberg, Chief of Staff > > If you are from Boston, as I am, be sure to mention the neighborhood/parish > where you grew up or live now. > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 19:26:24 +0100 > From: Anny Ballardini > Subject: Re: http://irasciblepoet.blogspot.com/ > > I didn't even notice it! Not to worry. > > On 1/30/07, Raymond Bianchi wrote: > > > > http://irasciblepoet.blogspot.com/ > > > > To all Poetic Listers like a stupid I set up a blog with a typoed > > name. So forgive this stupid poet > > > > here is the same blog as before with a corrected name. > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > -------------- Original message -------------- > > From: tyrone williams > > > > > Joe, > > > > > > Thanks for forwarding the Hirsch--very pertient to what we're dealing > > with at > > > Xavier right now..and I liked Symptoms of a Finaer age. especially the > > first and > > > middle sections... > > > > > > > > > tyrone > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > >From: Joe Amato > > > >Sent: Jan 29, 2007 9:01 PM > > > >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > >Subject: Review of Hirsch's The Knowledge Deficit... > > > > > > > >Call out to Dan Z on that excellent review of Hirsch's new book. > > > >Thanks for alerting us to this, Dan. > > > > > > > >Here's the link again: > > > > > > > >http://www.thecommonreview.org/spotlight.html > > > > > > > >Anyone who's been struggling with these issues in the classroom will > > > >find this of great interest. I can see the applicability, as Dan > > > >suggests, to the study (and teaching) of poetry, but I need to let > > > >the various registers of the discussion settle in a bit. At the > > > >moment, I must confess, I'm finding myself more drawn to the > > > >pedagogical per se, maybe b/c I'm about to take another crack at > > > >Olson tomorrow with a new group of undergrads. > > > > > > > >Best, > > > > > > > >Joe > > > > > > > > > Tyrone Williams > > > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 12:57:06 -0600 > From: Simon DeDeo > Subject: Jed Perl on Laissez-Faire Aesthetics > > http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20070205&s=perl020507 > > Interesting and easy to blow your top when reading it, I think. > > I find his critiques of contemporary art (I love John Currin, e.g.) remind > me of the usual Dana Gioia et al. critiques of the avant garde (where are > the STANDARDS, where are the external directions on how to READ?, etc.), > but in an unusual slant Jed also works in a sort of analogy to neo-con > capitalism. > > It's like, Jed, you are stealing my rhetorical move! > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 14:17:12 -0500 > From: Vernon Frazer > Subject: Re: Homophobia... > > Jennifer > > I'm very displeased with much of the hostility this thread has generated. > > I don't want to get into a contest over which groups get treated the worst, > but I'd say people with disabilities take a lot of hits that people in > general don't notice and aren't aware of. > > Having Tourette Syndrome has caused me to endure discrimination in every > area you mention. I might hold the personal record for hearing "We filled > that opening yesterday" at a job interview. > > Throughout history, people with Tourette have been burned alive after being > accused of demonic possession.That's a very terminal stigma, I'd say. > > My symptoms aren't things I can hide. I can't "pass" for non-Tourettic. > > I'm appalled at the people who think they can talk about my condition with > levity and impunity. Of course, when I verbally savage someone who started > treating me like a subhuman, I'm perceived as the villain because a crip > just ain't sposed ta beat a normie. > > The interview Ric Carfagna did with me in the latest Big Bridge describes > some of my personal experiences. After reading it, some people have > expressed surprise at what I've had to go through. > > And I did have a negative encounter with another "Mr. Sensitivity" on this > List about six months ago. > > Don't get me started on the way blind people are patronized, as though > their being blind makes their ability to talk or think coherently a miracle. > My grandfather could do everything any other commercial fisherman could do, > as long as you pointed the boat in the right direction for him. > > > Vernon Frazer > http://vernonfrazer.com/Second%20Printing.pdf > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of reJennifer Bartlett > Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 5:35 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Homophobia... > > I'm sorry...I have to weigh in here. I believe that disabled people are the > most shunned in society. They are excluded from the media, and retinely > referred to in unacceptable language. Unemployment is near 70% because it is > > so darn hard to get a job. I've suffered a life of discrimination in all > areas: work, lovers, children, every getting an apartment!!!!!!!!! And there > > is no "affirmative action" for PWD. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get live scores and news about your team: Add the Live.com Football Page > http://www.live.com/?addtemplate=football > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 11:25:59 -0800 > From: Gretchen Adele > Subject: please remove me from list- unsubscribe > > thank you > > -- > gretchen adele > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 11:44:14 -0800 > From: Emma Larsson > Subject: please remove me from list- unsubscribe > > thank you > > -- > > emma larsson > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Never Miss an Email > Stay connected with Yahoo! Mail on your mobile. Get started! > http://mobile.yahoo.com/services?promote=mail > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 19:58:14 +0000 > From: Barry Schwabsky > Subject: Re: Jed Perl on Laissez-Faire Aesthetics > > The article is only available to subscribers. If you are one, maybe you could > cut and paste the text into an e-mail for us? (Not that I want to lure you > into doing something illegal.) Anyway, there's been a lot of boo-hooing over > the booming art market. Check out Jerry Saltz in the Village Voice: > http://www.villagevoice.com/art/0704,saltz,75590,13.html > > Simon DeDeo wrote: > http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20070205&s=perl020507 > > Interesting and easy to blow your top when reading it, I think. > > I find his critiques of contemporary art (I love John Currin, e.g.) remind > me of the usual Dana Gioia et al. critiques of the avant garde (where are > the STANDARDS, where are the external directions on how to READ?, etc.), > but in an unusual slant Jed also works in a sort of analogy to neo-con > capitalism. > > It's like, Jed, you are stealing my rhetorical move! > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 07:38:19 +1100 > From: Alison Croggon > Subject: Re: The Fib at Saline (Salt Publishing) About Angel Exhaust 19 > > I'm confused, Jesse. How is Jen - a real person, deserving of not > being put in quotation marks - supposed to have "fibbed"? The email > from Andrew Duncan that Tony Frazer forwarded to UK Poets is exactly > the same as the post at Saline. Did Tony Frazer fib as well? > > > On 1/31/07, Jesse Glass wrote: > > Here's a note I just sent to Chris Emery of Salt regarding a posting by > > "Jen" about Angel Exhaust 19. > > > > Hey Chris-- > > > > The posting on Angel Exhaust is wrong. The ending, on page 142 of issue > > 19 goes like this: > > > > Methan: Why is it called Devastate your Aunt Jeremy? > > Manly: It was a misundertanding between the two editors. > > Methan: Are you going to explain the poetic landscape, and your spectrum > > allotment, as a way of telling the reader what to expect? > > Manly: They probably wouldn't know what to expect even if we disclosed > > all that. > > Methan: So what's the poetry like? > > Manly: It is full of wonderfully sibilant s and amazingly lateral l > > sounds. Let me expand on that if you will. Corcoran is like Corcoran. > > Glass is like Glass. Holman is like Holman. Holman is more like Holman > > than like Morris. > > Methan: I've never heard of them. > > Manly: Maybe you should read Angel Exhaust. > > > > Not a word in Duncan's back page note about Mssrs. Philpot or Nolan. > > > > Jen's telling a fib that you should correct to set the record straight. > > > > Jesse Glass > > > > Take a look at "Jen's" posting at Saline and you'll see what a little > > creative fibbing can accomplish. > > > > > -- > Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au > Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com > Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 12:41:58 -0800 > From: Mary Kasimor > Subject: Re: Homophobia... > > Vernon, > I lived next door to a kid who had Tourette Syndrome. HIs name was Jim > Eisenreich and he went on to play professional baseball. My understanding is > that he became a spokesperson for people who have Tourette Syndrome. Are you > familiar with him? I think that he was traded by the Twins to the Royals and > then became a very successful and admired professional ball player, partly > because he did talk about having Tourette Syndrome and how it affected him. I > think the people of my hometown have a great deal of admiration and respect > for him. > > Best, > Mary Kasimor > > > Vernon Frazer wrote: > Jennifer > > I'm very displeased with much of the hostility this thread has generated. > > I don't want to get into a contest over which groups get treated the worst, > but I'd say people with disabilities take a lot of hits that people in > general don't notice and aren't aware of. > > Having Tourette Syndrome has caused me to endure discrimination in every > area you mention. I might hold the personal record for hearing "We filled > that opening yesterday" at a job interview. > > Throughout history, people with Tourette have been burned alive after being > accused of demonic possession.That's a very terminal stigma, I'd say. > > My symptoms aren't things I can hide. I can't "pass" for non-Tourettic. > > I'm appalled at the people who think they can talk about my condition with > levity and impunity. Of course, when I verbally savage someone who started > treating me like a subhuman, I'm perceived as the villain because a crip > just ain't sposed ta beat a normie. > > The interview Ric Carfagna did with me in the latest Big Bridge describes > some of my personal experiences. After reading it, some people have > expressed surprise at what I've had to go through. > > And I did have a negative encounter with another "Mr. Sensitivity" on this > List about six months ago. > > Don't get me started on the way blind people are patronized, as though > their being blind makes their ability to talk or think coherently a miracle. > My grandfather could do everything any other commercial fisherman could do, > as long as you pointed the boat in the right direction for him. > > > Vernon Frazer > http://vernonfrazer.com/Second%20Printing.pdf > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of reJennifer Bartlett > Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 5:35 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Homophobia... > > I'm sorry...I have to weigh in here. I believe that disabled people are the > most shunned in society. They are excluded from the media, and retinely > referred to in unacceptable language. Unemployment is near 70% because it is > > so darn hard to get a job. I've suffered a life of discrimination in all > areas: work, lovers, children, every getting an apartment!!!!!!!!! And there > > is no "affirmative action" for PWD. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get live scores and news about your team: Add the Live.com Football Page > http://www.live.com/?addtemplate=football > > > > --------------------------------- > 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time > with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 15:07:32 -0600 > From: David-Baptiste Chirot > Subject: Re: Jim Eisenreich > > I got to meet Jim Eisenreich once at a Twins game here in Milwaukee. > a very inspirational person and excellent outfielder and hitter-- > he had to endure some very tough times his first years in the Big > leagues--can only imagine what was like in the Minors-- > wrote abt him to this list some time ago > > my all time favorite ball player is Rube Waddell--one of the all time > characters--he is in the Hall of Fame probably wd never be allowed past > Special Olympics these days-- > he was mentally ill, developmentally challenged, what they used to call > "slow"--and an alcoholic to boot-- > only Sandy Koufax had more stirkeouts by a lefthander in one season, over > fifty years after Rube set the record-- > in early days of baseball deaf mutes were not uncommon--prompting the use of > signs for balls and strikes by umpires-- > in baseball quite along list of players with various disabilities--Jimmy > Piersall--for example--in an asylum for a while during his major league > career (his book Fear Strikes Out made into film with Tony Perkins playing > Jimbo)-- > > > >From: Mary Kasimor > >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group > >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >Subject: Re: Homophobia... > >Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 12:41:58 -0800 > > > >Vernon, > > I lived next door to a kid who had Tourette Syndrome. HIs name was Jim > >Eisenreich and he went on to play professional baseball. My understanding > >is that he became a spokesperson for people who have Tourette Syndrome. Are > >you familiar with him? I think that he was traded by the Twins to the > >Royals and then became a very successful and admired professional ball > >player, partly because he did talk about having Tourette Syndrome and how > >it affected him. I think the people of my hometown have a great deal of > >admiration and respect for him. > > > > Best, > > Mary Kasimor > > > > > >Vernon Frazer wrote: > > Jennifer > > > >I'm very displeased with much of the hostility this thread has generated. > > > >I don't want to get into a contest over which groups get treated the worst, > >but I'd say people with disabilities take a lot of hits that people in > >general don't notice and aren't aware of. > > > >Having Tourette Syndrome has caused me to endure discrimination in every > >area you mention. I might hold the personal record for hearing "We filled > >that opening yesterday" at a job interview. > > > >Throughout history, people with Tourette have been burned alive after being > >accused of demonic possession.That's a very terminal stigma, I'd say. > > > >My symptoms aren't things I can hide. I can't "pass" for non-Tourettic. > > > >I'm appalled at the people who think they can talk about my condition with > >levity and impunity. Of course, when I verbally savage someone who started > >treating me like a subhuman, I'm perceived as the villain because a crip > >just ain't sposed ta beat a normie. > > > >The interview Ric Carfagna did with me in the latest Big Bridge describes > >some of my personal experiences. After reading it, some people have > >expressed surprise at what I've had to go through. > > > >And I did have a negative encounter with another "Mr. Sensitivity" on this > >List about six months ago. > > > >Don't get me started on the way blind people are patronized, as though > >their being blind makes their ability to talk or think coherently a > >miracle. > >My grandfather could do everything any other commercial fisherman could do, > >as long as you pointed the boat in the right direction for him. > > > > > >Vernon Frazer > >http://vernonfrazer.com/Second%20Printing.pdf > > > > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > >Behalf Of reJennifer Bartlett > >Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 5:35 PM > >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >Subject: Homophobia... > > > >I'm sorry...I have to weigh in here. I believe that disabled people are the > >most shunned in society. They are excluded from the media, and retinely > >referred to in unacceptable language. Unemployment is near 70% because it > >is > > > >so darn hard to get a job. I've suffered a life of discrimination in all > >areas: work, lovers, children, every getting an apartment!!!!!!!!! And > >there > > > >is no "affirmative action" for PWD. > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > >Get live scores and news about your team: Add the Live.com Football Page > >http://www.live.com/?addtemplate=football > > > > > > > >--------------------------------- > >8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time > > with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. > > _________________________________________________________________ > From predictions to trailers, check out the MSN Entertainment Guide to the > Academy Awards® > http://movies.msn.com/movies/oscars2007/?icid=ncoscartagline1 > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 12:51:01 -0800 > From: George Bowering > Subject: Re: Homophobia... > > On 31-Jan-07, at 12:41 PM, Mary Kasimor wrote: > > > Vernon, > > I lived next door to a kid who had Tourette Syndrome. HIs name was > > Jim Eisenreich and he went on to play professional baseball. My > > understanding is that he became a spokesperson for people who have > > Tourette Syndrome. Are you familiar with him? I think that he was > > traded by the Twins to the Royals and then became a very successful > > and admired professional ball player, partly because he did talk about > > having Tourette Syndrome and how it affected him. I think the people > > of my hometown have a great deal of admiration and respect for him. > > > > Best, > > Mary Kasimor > > > > > > Well, I drafted him on my fantasy team. > He went to the Phillies after KC. > In 15 seasons he had a .290 batting average. Pretty damned good. > > gb > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 21:25:52 +0000 > From: Raymond Bianchi > Subject: Re: http://irasciblepoet.blogspot.com/ > > how is Bolzano? > > I love your blog it is my first read in the morning. > > RB > > -------------- Original message -------------- > From: Anny Ballardini > > > I didn't even notice it! Not to worry. > > > > On 1/30/07, Raymond Bianchi wrote: > > > > > > http://irasciblepoet.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > To all Poetic Listers like a stupid I set up a blog with a typoed > > > name. So forgive this stupid poet > > > > > > here is the same blog as before with a corrected name. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------- Original message -------------- > > > From: tyrone williams > > > > > > > Joe, > > > > > > > > Thanks for forwarding the Hirsch--very pertient to what we're dealing > > > with at > > > > Xavier right now..and I liked Symptoms of a Finaer age. especially the > > > first and > > > > middle sections... > > > > > > > > > > > > tyrone > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > >From: Joe Amato > > > > >Sent: Jan 29, 2007 9:01 PM > > > > >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > > >Subject: Review of Hirsch's The Knowledge Deficit... > > > > > > > > > >Call out to Dan Z on that excellent review of Hirsch's new book. > > > > >Thanks for alerting us to this, Dan. > > > > > > > > > >Here's the link again: > > > > > > > > > >http://www.thecommonreview.org/spotlight.html > > > > > > > > > >Anyone who's been struggling with these issues in the classroom will > > > > >find this of great interest. I can see the applicability, as Dan > > > > >suggests, to the study (and teaching) of poetry, but I need to let > > > > >the various registers of the discussion settle in a bit. At the > > > > >moment, I must confess, I'm finding myself more drawn to the > > > > >pedagogical per se, maybe b/c I'm about to take another crack at > > > > >Olson tomorrow with a new group of undergrads. > > > > > > > > > >Best, > > > > > > > > > >Joe > > > > > > > > > > > > Tyrone Williams > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 15:47:49 -0600 > From: Simon DeDeo > Subject: jed perl article > > Ah, I see what is going on. You need not pay AFAICT, but you must > register. I use "bugmenot" which gives you passwords and logins so you > don't have to hop their demographic hoops. The current bugmenot password > for the Jed Perl article is the strangely disturbing > > USERNAME: buffychunks > PASSWORD: pooklord > > If that doesn't work (TNR plays wack-a-mole, apparently, see > http://www.bugmenot.com/ for more infor.) > > For reference, the URL is: > http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=artnotes&s=perl112001 > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 16:49:30 -0500 > From: Vernon Frazer > Subject: Re: Jim Eisenreich > > Mary and David > > I'm very familiar with Jim Eisenreich, from his promising start as a rookie > to his virtually getting booed out of the game for several years. I didn't > understand why anybody would boo a .300 hitter---but then, I was at least a > decade away from receiving my diagnosis. He was one of my favorite players > when he played with the Florida Marlins. I've never really spoken to him, > although I think we did serve together on a panel at a conference sponsored > by the National Tourette Syndrome Association. > > I remember reading about Rube Waddell when I was a kid. As I recall, he went > for a ride on a fire truck on a day when he was supposed to pitch. According > to the records and the story books, though, he was an amazing pitcher. His > strikeout record stood for some time, as you point out, David. > > I remember Fear Strikes Out and, as a lifelong Red Sox fan, always > appreciated Jimmy Piersall's playing. Although he wasn't a Hall of Famer, > he probably would have received a lot more recognition if he hadn't played > in the shadows of Willie, Mickey and the Duke. > > Vernon > http://vernonfrazer.com > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of David-Baptiste Chirot > Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 4:08 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Jim Eisenreich > > I got to meet Jim Eisenreich once at a Twins game here in Milwaukee. > a very inspirational person and excellent outfielder and hitter-- > he had to endure some very tough times his first years in the Big > leagues--can only imagine what was like in the Minors-- > wrote abt him to this list some time ago > > my all time favorite ball player is Rube Waddell--one of the all time > characters--he is in the Hall of Fame probably wd never be allowed past > Special Olympics these days-- > he was mentally ill, developmentally challenged, what they used to call > "slow"--and an alcoholic to boot-- > only Sandy Koufax had more stirkeouts by a lefthander in one season, over > fifty years after Rube set the record-- > in early days of baseball deaf mutes were not uncommon--prompting the use of > > signs for balls and strikes by umpires-- > in baseball quite along list of players with various disabilities--Jimmy > Piersall--for example--in an asylum for a while during his major league > career (his book Fear Strikes Out made into film with Tony Perkins playing > Jimbo)-- > > > >From: Mary Kasimor > >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group > >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >Subject: Re: Homophobia... > >Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 12:41:58 -0800 > > > >Vernon, > > I lived next door to a kid who had Tourette Syndrome. HIs name was Jim > >Eisenreich and he went on to play professional baseball. My understanding > >is that he became a spokesperson for people who have Tourette Syndrome. Are > > >you familiar with him? I think that he was traded by the Twins to the > >Royals and then became a very successful and admired professional ball > >player, partly because he did talk about having Tourette Syndrome and how > >it affected him. I think the people of my hometown have a great deal of > >admiration and respect for him. > > > > Best, > > Mary Kasimor > > > > > >Vernon Frazer wrote: > > Jennifer > > > >I'm very displeased with much of the hostility this thread has generated. > > > >I don't want to get into a contest over which groups get treated the worst, > >but I'd say people with disabilities take a lot of hits that people in > >general don't notice and aren't aware of. > > > >Having Tourette Syndrome has caused me to endure discrimination in every > >area you mention. I might hold the personal record for hearing "We filled > >that opening yesterday" at a job interview. > > > >Throughout history, people with Tourette have been burned alive after being > >accused of demonic possession.That's a very terminal stigma, I'd say. > > > >My symptoms aren't things I can hide. I can't "pass" for non-Tourettic. > > > >I'm appalled at the people who think they can talk about my condition with > >levity and impunity. Of course, when I verbally savage someone who started > >treating me like a subhuman, I'm perceived as the villain because a crip > >just ain't sposed ta beat a normie. > > > >The interview Ric Carfagna did with me in the latest Big Bridge describes > >some of my personal experiences. After reading it, some people have > >expressed surprise at what I've had to go through. > > > >And I did have a negative encounter with another "Mr. Sensitivity" on this > >List about six months ago. > > > >Don't get me started on the way blind people are patronized, as though > >their being blind makes their ability to talk or think coherently a > >miracle. > >My grandfather could do everything any other commercial fisherman could do, > >as long as you pointed the boat in the right direction for him. > > > > > >Vernon Frazer > >http://vernonfrazer.com/Second%20Printing.pdf > > > > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > >Behalf Of reJennifer Bartlett > >Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 5:35 PM > >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >Subject: Homophobia... > > > >I'm sorry...I have to weigh in here. I believe that disabled people are the > >most shunned in society. They are excluded from the media, and retinely > >referred to in unacceptable language. Unemployment is near 70% because it > >is > > > >so darn hard to get a job. I've suffered a life of discrimination in all > >areas: work, lovers, children, every getting an apartment!!!!!!!!! And > >there > > > >is no "affirmative action" for PWD. > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > >Get live scores and news about your team: Add the Live.com Football Page > >http://www.live.com/?addtemplate=football > > > > > > > >--------------------------------- > >8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time > > with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. > > _________________________________________________________________ > From predictions to trailers, check out the MSN Entertainment Guide to the > Academy AwardsR > http://movies.msn.com/movies/oscars2007/?icid=ncoscartagline1 > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 13:47:26 -0800 > From: George Bowering > Subject: Re: Jim Eisenreich > > On 31-Jan-07, at 1:07 PM, David-Baptiste Chirot wrote: > > > I got to meet Jim Eisenreich once at a Twins game here in Milwaukee. > > a very inspirational person and excellent outfielder and hitter-- > > he had to endure some very tough times his first years in the Big > > leagues--can only imagine what was like in the Minors-- > > wrote abt him to this list some time ago > > > > my all time favorite ball player is Rube Waddell--one of the all time > > characters--he is in the Hall of Fame probably wd never be allowed > > past Special Olympics these days-- > > he was mentally ill, developmentally challenged, what they used to > > call "slow"--and an alcoholic to boot-- > > only Sandy Koufax had more stirkeouts by a lefthander in one season, > > over fifty years after Rube set the record-- > > in early days of baseball deaf mutes were not uncommon--prompting the > > use of signs for balls and strikes by umpires-- > > in baseball quite along list of players with various > > disabilities--Jimmy Piersall--for example--in an asylum for a while > > during his major league career (his book Fear Strikes Out made into > > film with Tony Perkins playing Jimbo)-- > > Yeah, and before that, a TV play with Tab Hunter playing Jim. > I guess they saw some sense in having 2 actors who didnt know how to > throw a baseball do it. > > > > > > > George Harry Bowering > Likes towns with -ver- in them. > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 03:05:54 +0000 > From: "Ricejunk2@frontiernet.net" > Subject: diarrhea of the mouth > > Dear members: > > Some people have diarrhea of the mouth. It is a medical condition, but =20 > it doesn't mean we all have to pay attention to, well, the product of =20 > said medical condition. That is what toilets are for. And delete =20 > buttons, ok. There is always the "I WIN" button... available for when =20 > your computer OR another human thinks it has the best of you. > > Poetry discussions are so much better than crap-slinging. Isn't there =20 > enough raw-ness in language and its composition, that we can avoid the =20 > raw-sewage stuff? I know there are more critical discussions, =20 > especially of ideas (which are lacking in other conversations these =20 > days), in this listserv's future. Otherwise, why are any of us here. > > Write on! Listen and read and hear and say and smell (if you =20 > dare)...all that there is for you here online and everywhere... But =20 > please stay home if you need to be near the crapper, T. F. Rice > > > "We pretend the raw bloom remains > unshattered > by the ravishing dregs of lost humanity" > ...just a little something i wrote when i was a teenager... he-hee... =20 > we havent come very far since then as a human race... > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 19:45:47 -0800 > From: David Baratier > Subject: Larry's poetry forum > > > The Poetry Forum at Larry’s > Remainder of the Season: 2007 > > Looking forward to seeing you'all soon-- > Readings: 2 sets about 20-25 minutes each. From: > > > January 15-- Okla Elliot > January 22-- Terrance Hayes > January 29-- Will Evans > February 5-- Richard St. John > February 12-- David Baratier > February 19-- Vernell Bristow > February 26-- Scott Wood > March 5-- Aldon Nielsen > March 12-- Fundraiser - Diane Gilliam Fisher > March 19-- NO READING (SPRING BREAK) > March 26-- Sandy Feen > April 2-- Maj Ragain > April 9--Jillian Weisse > April 16-- Annie Price > April 23-- TBA > April 30-- TBA > May 7-- William Redding Memorial Reading > > All Events > Mondays 7pm 2040 N. High St > Columbus, Ohio > All readings followed by a brief open mike. > Funded by the Ohio Arts Council: A state agency that supports public > programs in the arts. > > Be well > David Baratier, Co-coordinator, Larry's Poetry Forum > > > > > > > > > Be well > > David Baratier, Editor > > Pavement Saw Press > PO Box 6291 > Columbus, OH 43206 > http://pavementsaw.org > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 03:50:01 +0000 > From: "Ricejunk2@frontiernet.net" > Subject: Re: Poems on Scapegoats > > "Purple Scapegoat" > > Purple was blamed for what blue and red did, > discriminated against for the mere color of his skin. > It seems the Color Police aren't really all that discriminating, > in the truer sense of the word. Where would we be if we discriminated > nothing. Distinction and discernment are cords that make our unique =20 > world. We have eyes that see and ears that hear. > > It is those who have a desire to shoot someone who make a word "wrong" =20 > or naughty", and then proceed to shoot at it with all they have. Or =20 > maybe at times the desirous one is (s)he who says the word in a new =20 > way. Whatever the case, be nice to purple. And red and blue. Because =20 > whoever did the wrong will show himself in the end. They always do. =20 > "Give them enough rope and they will hang themselves" has always rung =20 > true in my life and misc strugglings. > > To discriminate: > > 1. Show prejudice, favor, show bias, treat unfairly. > 2. Distinguish, differentiate, separate, contrast, compare, tell the =20 > difference, judge, draw a distinction, discern, segregate. > > All in fun, since abstraction can be fun when wanting to say something real, > T.F. Rice > > > > > > > Quoting heidi arnold : > > > Colleagues, > > > > -- i would like to read some experimental poems on scapegoats and > > scapegoating -- a communal or familial process of setting someone up to be= > a > > "fall guy" -- when the fault for the problem is v. collective and systemic > > -- that we have to make our own leper colonies to make societies at all -- > > is it ok to post to this list > > > > scapegoats: > > > > Lincoln > > Martin Luther King > > Jesus Christ > > Nazim Hikmet > > ... > > How many can we name? > > > > if you like I will send a little chapbook of my poems to each person who > > responds > > > > > > > > --=20 > > www.heidiarnold.org > > http://peaceraptor.blogspot.com/ > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 20:11:20 -0800 > From: Betsy Andrews > Subject: New Book: Betsy Andrews' NEW JERSEY > > Betsy Andrews' NEW JERSEY, winner of the 2007 Brittingham Prize, is now > available from University of Wisconsin Press. > > To order directly from the Press: > http://www.wisc.edu/wisconsinpress/books/4306.htm > > “The heart of darkness is alive and beating in Betsy Andrews’s New Jersey. > With its commitment to naming, to witnessing the machinations and > degradations of our terror,’ this is a brave poem, and a necessary one.” > —Anne Waldman, Jack Kerouac School of Disembodied Poetics > > “New Jersey hotwired, New Jersey on speed: the Turnpike unrolls its scathing > demotic across the humiliated landscape that was once a bright idea; the > Turnpike dreams of minutemen and wakes to Abu Ghraib; the Turnpike names its > toll plazas for poets and founding fathers and channels its weary to Burger > Kings and ATMs. No help for us, the country’s in the breakdown lane. But > Betsy Andrews writes its antic obit in a vein so charged with wit and > razzle-dazzle that something must be salvageable even now. We must, in spite > of ourselves, have done something right. New Jersey is a brilliant debut.” > —Linda Gregerson, author of The Woman Who Died in Her Sleep > > “Serving the swerve from witness to outrage, the poem follows war’s > disastrous trajectory from domestic to international policy and singular to > universal tragedy with unrelenting honesty. Andrews has a queer eye for > empire, and this work is an incisive, exciting, and necessary intervention.” > > —Brian Teare, author of The Room Where I Was Born > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. > > ------------------------------ > > End of POETICS Digest - 30 Jan 2007 to 31 Jan 2007 (#2007-32) > ************************************************************* > aarontieger.blogspot.com carvepoems.org soonproductions.org "Make a sudden, destructive unpredictable action; incorporate." (Brian Eno) ____________________________________________________________________________________ Bored stiff? Loosen up... Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games. http://games.yahoo.com/games/front ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 12:25:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcus Bales Subject: Joanna Connors in her column in the Arts & Life section of today's (Thursday, February 1, 2007) Plain Dealer, reviews the Haiku Death Match sponsored by Mayor Frank Jackson's Rotunda Art Committee: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Joanna connors in her column in the arts & life section of today's (thursday, february 1, 2007) plain dealer, reviews the haiku death match sponsored by mayor frank jackson's rotunda art committee: In death match, fearless poets spar but haiku lives by Joanna Connors, the Plain Dealer Thursday, February 01, 2007 The first thing you have to consider when you're putting on a death match any sort of death match -- is lo cation. Venue. Where will the idea of fighting to the death be accepted without a lot of fuss? You want a certain comfort level among the spectators, a familiarity with bulletproof vests and hand-to-hand combat. A sense of history would help, too. So it came to pass that Cleveland's second official Haiku Death Match took place Wednesday at high noon at City Hall, in the rotunda, where the marble floors and columns echo with the names "George Forbes" and "Dennis Kucinich" and "Mike White." Where mayors have donned bulletproof vests to face their people, and city council presidents have brought to mind the gladiators of ancient times. Continued here: http://www.cleveland.com/entertainment/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/entertainment/1170322671208500.xml&coll=2 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 13:20:16 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: Gertrude Stein "Finally George A Vocabulary of Thinking" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This piece appeared in HOW TO WRITE. I need a copy of it electronically. If you have it, or you know where I might access it, please let me know ASAP! Thanks! Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 11:21:58 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Adam Fieled Subject: FUNTIME: Lundwall/Fieled on PFS Post MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In homage to messeurs Bowie & Iggy, here are poems that explore the seamy underside of...just about everything. Andrew Lundwall & Adam Fieled present the first five poems from FUNTIME!!!!! http://www.artrecess.blogspot.com Love on yer, dearies... --------------------------------- No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 15:07:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew Lundwall Subject: melancholia's tremulous dreadlocks issue 8 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed The eighth issue of melancholia's tremulous dreadlocks is live, featuring work by: Brandon Brown – Daniel Knudsen – James Belflower – Jared Stanley – Jen Tynes - Larry Sawyer – Sasha West – William Allegrezza mtd is a biweekly online poetry journal edited by Andrew Lundwall and Francois Luong. http://mtd.celaine.com _________________________________________________________________ Get live scores and news about your team: Add the Live.com Football Page http://www.live.com/?addtemplate=football ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 12:45:08 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Glenn Bach Subject: Call for Papers: Stevens and Sound MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I haven't seen this on the Poetics list yet, so I thought some of you might be interested. Best, G. CALL FOR PAPERS A Special Issue of The Wallace Stevens Journal Topic: Sound in Stevens Given Wallace Stevens' pronouncements about the significance of sound and the prominent attention to sound and sonic phenomena throughout his poetry, it is time again to devote attention to this important facet of his poetics. This special issue of The Wallace Stevens Journal welcomes papers on any aspect of the expressivity of sound in Stevens. Particularly welcome are papers on the rhythms of Stevens' verse as well as articles that introduce new scholarly directions since the Fall 1991 WSJ volume, "Stevens and Structures of Sound." Suggested topics follow: * Stevens' play with the sonic properties of English, French, and other foreign or symbolic languages * The role of rhythm and other sonic poetic structures in Stevens' verse * The non-semantic and other properties of sound that might interest Stevens * Explications, with examples, of Stevens' famous pronouncements and winking subterfuges regarding the role of sound and the sound of words in poetry * The range of human and non-human speakers in Stevens' verse * Consideration of how sound in Stevens may or may not connect with Stevens' politics * Critical resistance or impediments to studies of sound and rhythm in Stevens * The significance of Stevens' experiments with sound in relation to other modernist as well as later experimental writers * Reflection on Stevens' reading style and reception of his poetry readings, live and recorded Papers should be sent by July 15, 2007, to: Natalie Gerber Department of English 277 Fenton Hall SUNY Fredonia Fredonia, NY 14063 Email: gerber@fredonia.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 22:01:16 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dubravka Djuric Subject: poets in small cultures and outside gaze MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable dear listmemebers, it has been long time since i wrote something for this list. now, i = would like to comment the site of green integer. surfing, i came upon = it, and was really amaizing to see so much poets all arround the world, = including the former yugoslav poets! which i find really great! i was = specially interestied in the poets from serbia, i am from serbia, and i = was so sad to see that some right wing oriented poets are on the list... = and now i think about how in small cultures such as serbia, you cannot = have a second scene, because we are all 'one big family', right and = left, and every poet who ever wrote experimental poetry is erased, = acctually could not be establish as a poet of any value, it doesnt fit = into the picture of great national poetry, and what you call moderate = modernisam and postmodernism, or what you call(ed) mainstream poets just = that kind of poetry do exist. other kind of poets cannot survive, they = are out of sight, out of attention of dominant culture, and of course, = they could never be in attention of outside gaze, outside attention. i = find it very very sad... i dont know how are in other cultures outside = usa..... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 17:23:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetry Project Subject: Events at the Poetry Project 2/2 - 2/9 In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Dears, We love you like the falling snow. Workshops are filling up, but there is still room, so please let us know soon if you=B9d like to enroll. Please find the descriptions describing below= . We hope to see you this coming week. Love, The Poetry Project Friday, February 2, 9:30 pm Fall Workshop Reading Students of Marcella Durand, Larry Fagin, Kristin Prevallet and Gary Sullivan read from the work they wrote in the past season's workshops. Monday, February 5, 6:00 pm Urban Word NYC Teen Poetry Slam "Urban Word NYC ignited the youth spoken word and poetry scene in New York City when it was established in partnership with Teachers & Writers Collaborative in 1999. Since then, Urban Word NYC has provided thousands of New York City teenagers with free, safe, ongoing, and uncensored writing an= d performance opportunities." From their website, www.urbanwordnyc.org (free to performers, $5 teens, $7 adults) Wednesday, February 7, 8:00 pm Ammiel Alcalay & Michael Brownstein Ammiel Alcalay's latest books include Scrapmetal, A Little History, and two collaborative translation projects: Selected Poems of Faraj Bayrakdar, a former Syrian political prisoner, done with the New York Translation Collective and forthcoming from Beyond Baroque, and Outcast, a novel by Iraqi born Hebrew novelist Shimon Ballas, with Oz Shelach. Michael Brownstein has written many poems and three novels: Country Cousins, Self-Reliance, and The Touch. His global justice manifesto and wake-up call= , World on Fire, is being made into a major motion picture starring the entir= e capitalist planet. Out of his involvement in shamanic practice has come a new novel, Healing Dick, as well as the related website (healingdick.com) wherein he drums and sings to heal Dick Cheney=B9s heart. Friday, February 9, 10:30 pm Open 24 Hours An evening celebrating the work published by Open 24 Hours Press, edited by Greg Fuchs and John Coletti. Readers to include Corina Copp, Arlo Quint, Dustin Williamson, Mariana Ruiz-Firmat and Erica Kaufman. Plus a collaborative happening with visual artist Jonathan Allen, frequent Open 24 Hours cover designer. Open 24 Hours is based in New York City and fashions itself after the mimeo style of 1960's poetry publishing efforts. This even= t may include the construction and utilization of a martini bar. Spring Workshops at the Poetry Project The Poetry School Of Poetry =AD Douglas Rothschild Tuesdays at 7 Pm: 10 Sessions Begin February 13th Writing poetry is difficult; writing good poetry, more difficult still. In this workshop, we will focus on exactly what we think is good in a poem & determine how our senses of aesthetics inform our responses to this question. Working within our own aesthetic notions we will then begin to refine our writing, & help each other to write the best poems that we can. The workshop will conduct a number of actual experiments with writing that will allow us to step outside the world of id, which wants to keep all the beautiful words, & into the artistic self, which understands which pieces fit & which belong elsewhere. We will also engage the basic Poetry School of Poetry premise that the poet=B9s first job is to learn how to edit. Dgls N. Rthschld has been behind the foods table at the New Years Reading more times than it is worth mentioning. He has also written a number of chapbooks, the most ground breaking entitled The Minor Arcane. He has taught what seem to be innumerable college writing classes, and is currently teaching at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice, a CUNY school.=20 The Visible Unseen: Writing Outside Borders =AD Akilah Oliver Thursdays at 7 pm: 10 Sessions Begin February 15th Are poetry and prose virtual realities, simulations of something other, or the real thing? Where does the =B3I=B2 live? How many moments exist in the moment of the line? What borders of form are crucial for us to hang on to = & which boundaries are collapsible? In this workshop, we will explore the connections and tensions between the visible and the unseen world/s, not a= s dualities or binaries, but as complementary sites of composition. Through engagement with text (written and visual), public spaces, the imagination, dreams and Eros, participants are invited to think of writing as that which re-imagines the known and the unknown. Though this is a text based workshop= , poets, prose writers, and artists from all disciplines are welcome. Reading= s include: Giorgio Agamben, Laura Mullen, Whitman, Anne Waldman, Derrida, & Ben Okri. Akilah Oliver is the author of the she said dialogues: flesh memory, An Arriving Guard of Angels, Thusly Coming to Greet, a(A)gust, & The Putterer=B9s Notebook. She is faculty at the Jack Kerouac School of Disembodied Poetics Summer Writing Program at Naropa University. Impurity Rocks! A Poetry Lab & Workshop =AD Joanna Fuhrman Fridays at 7 pm: 10 Sessions Begin February 16th The class will focus on =B3impure=B2 poetry, poetry that employs a mixture of tones and styles. Special emphasis will be placed on works that combine narrative and humor with linguistic and imagistic disjunction. In-class exercises and take-home assignments will touch on issues of scale, space, sound, genre and wordplay. Time will also be devoted to reading published poems as well as in-depth discussions and critiques of student work. Joann= a Fuhrman is the author of three collections of poetry, Freud in Brooklyn, Ugh Ugh Ocean and Moraine, all published by Hanging Loose Press. She has taught poetry writing at The University of Washington, The Cooper Union Saturday Outreach program and in the New York City Public Schools. Poetry For The Page, Stage, And Computer Screen =AD Thomas Savage Saturdays At 12 pm: 10 Sessions Begin February 17th This course is a writing workshop where students' writing is the main focus. Also used as inspiration and writing prompts will be samples of wor= k by writers from The Beats, Black Mountain poets, The New York School (all generations), Language Poetry, Poets Theater, Pablo Neruda, and works being published today online, among other sources. Practices will include readin= g as well as writing assignments and, in a great Poetry Project tradition, in-class writing. Thomas Savage has written eight published books of poems including most recently Bamiyan Poems, Brain Surgery Poems and Political Conditions/Physical States. His poems have appeared in many print and online venues including The New York Times, Hanging Loose, Rattapallax, Big Bridge, Black Box, and regularly on the Wryting-L website. He has taught poetry workshops at The Poetry Project and Tribes Gallery. * The workshop fee is $350, which includes a one year Sustaining Poetry Project membership and tuition for any and all spring and fall classes. Reservations are required due to limited class space, and payment must be received in advance. Caps on class sizes, if in effect, will be determined by workshop leaders. Please send payment and reservations to: The Poetry Project, St. Mark's Church Attn: Workshops 131 East 10th St. NYC, NY 10003 For more information, or to pay by credit card, please call (212) 674-0910, or email: info@poetryproject.com. http://www.poetryproject.com/workshops.php Become a Poetry Project Member! http://poetryproject.com/membership.php Winter Calendar: http://www.poetryproject.com/calendar.php The Poetry Project is located at St. Mark's Church-in-the-Bowery 131 East 10th Street at Second Avenue New York City 10003 Trains: 6, F, N, R, and L. info@poetryproject.com www.poetryproject.com Admission is $8, $7 for students/seniors and $5 for members (though now those who take out a membership at $85 or higher will get in FREE to all regular readings). We are wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. For more info call 212-674-0910. If you=B9d like to be unsubscribed from this mailing list, please drop a line at info@poetryproject.com. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 14:47:36 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: UbuWeb Subject: UBUWEB :: Selected Resources - Feb 2007, by Charles Bernstein MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit __ U B U W E B __ http://ubu.com ------------------------------------------------- UBUWEB :: Selected Resources, Feb 2007 ------------------------------------------------- * * * Selected by Charles Bernstein * * * 1. Kevin Davies, Pause Button http://www.ubu.com/ubu/davies_pause.html 2. Craig Dworkin, Legion II http://www.ubu.com/contemp/dworkin/dworkin_legion.pdf 3. Deanna Ferguson, The Relative Minor http://www.ubu.com/ubu/pdf/ferguson_relative.pdf 4. Marjorie Perloff, "Concrete Prose: Haraldo de Campos Galáxias and After" http://www.ubu.com/papers/perloff.html 5. Yunte Huang, "Angel Island and the Poetics of Error" http://www.ubu.com/ethno/discourses/huang. 6. George Kuchar, The Kiss of Frankenstein http://www.ubu.com/ubu/unpublishable/012_kuchar_frankenstein.pdf 7. Ron Silliman, Sunset Debris http://www.ubu.com/ubu/pdf/silliman_sunset.pdf 8. Aram Saroyan, Aram Saroyan http://www.ubu.com/historical/saroyan/saroyan01.html 9. Brian Kim Stefans, Alpha Betty's Chronicles http://www.ubu.com/ubu/stefans_alpha.html 10. Hannah Weiner, Little Books/Indians http://www.ubu.com/ubu/weiner_indians.html Bonus Track:. Gertrude Stein, from Five Words in a Line http://www.ubu.com/concept/stein_five.html --------------- "Ubu is justly famous for its extraordinary collection of audio and movie files and historical sound and visual poetry. For this list, however, I mostly chose from UBU's contemporary selection of poetry books and essays." - Charles Bernstein Charles Bernstein's most recent book is Girly Man: http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/bernstein/books/girly-man With Al Filreis he directs PennSound: http://writing.upenn.edu/pennsound/ And with Loss Pequeño Glazier the <>Electronic Poetry Center: http://epc.buffalo.edu/ Where he has a web log: http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/bernstein/blog/ ------------------------------------------------- UBUWEB :: Selected Resources, Feb 2007 ------------------------------------------------- UBUWEB IS ENTIRELY FREE __ U B U W E B __ http://ubu.com ____________________________________________________________________________________ Any questions? Get answers on any topic at www.Answers.yahoo.com. Try it now. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 17:52:17 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Onedit #7 Comments: cc: "Poetryetc provides a venue for a dialogue relating to poetry and poetics"@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU, POETRYETC@JISCMAIL.AC.UK Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I forward this announcement from Tim Atkins (English/London Transnational Poet) who is the editor of Onedit, an online mag. Apart from the fact that I am in it (and if you are hungering for more poems and fragments from Sleeping With Sappho, there is a robust number of them) (end of parenthesis!), Tim is an acute, smart editor (as well as a lively, totally irreverent - i.e. 'contemporary' - translator of Horace) and he does real well with selecting and presenting \ the work of a robust range of characters, I mean, poets. Enjoy, Stephen Vincent Dear Friends, The new issue of onedit launches on 24th January 2007. http://www.onedit.net/ onedit 7 features work by: Ray Di Palma Ken Edwards Thomas Evans Josep-Maria Junoy Simon Pettet Kit Robinson Joan Salvat-Papasseit Leslie Scalapino Aaron Shurin Gregory Vincent St.Thomasino Philip Terry Stephen Vincent With best wishes from Tim Atkins [editor] -- Tim Atkins ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 18:52:47 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jules Boykoff Subject: Halpern/Stadler reading in Portland, OR, 2 February MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 For people in or near Portland, Oregon... Please join us for the third installation of the The Tangent Reading Series! Innovative writers Rob Halpern (San Francisco) and Matthew Stadler (Portland) will read their work on Friday, February 2nd at 7 p.m., Clinton Corner Café, 2633 SE 21st Ave. Portland, Oregon. Admission is free. Rob Halpern is the author of Rumored Place (Krupskaya 2004) and Disaster Suite (Vigilance Society 2006). Currently, he’s co-editing the poems of the late Frances Jaffer together with Kathleen Fraser, writing a collaborative poem with Taylor Brady, and translating the early essays of Georges Perec, the first of which is forthcoming in Chicago Review. He lives in San Francisco. Matthew Stadler is the author of four novels, including Landscape: Memory and Allan Stein. He was the literary editor of Nest Magazine and is the co-founder and editor of Clear Cut Press. His non- fiction has been published widely in North America and Europe, and he is currently researching the early history of North Pacific America, for a series of lectures and essays. He lives in North Portland. For more information about the Tangent Reading Series, and for samples of Rob Halpern's and Matthew Stadler's work, see: www.thetangentpress.org/readings.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 22:00:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ric carfagna Subject: deconstruction and poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Who are the poets who best represent deconstructionist theory? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 21:05:09 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Haas Bianchi Subject: Chicagopostmodernpoetry is updated with profiles of Linh Dinh and Tony Tost MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Friends of Chicagopostmodernpoetry.com Please check out our updated site with new profiles of Linh Dinh and Tony Tost and the updated calendar for Chicago and region of February and March RB Raymond L Bianchi chicagopostmodernpoetry.com/ collagepoetchicago.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 19:21:16 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry In-Reply-To: <001201c74676$5669ad80$5c189c04@Cesare> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit michel deguy comes to mind. ric carfagna wrote: > Who are the poets who best represent deconstructionist theory? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 22:51:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 there isn't really a "deconstructionist" theory -- and it's profoundly odd to think of deconstruction as a theory that a poet would then "represent." Still, if you're really interested in deconstruciton and poetry, a good place to look would be in Derrida's essays on Jabes and Ponge -- On Thu, 01 Feb 2007 19:21:16 -0800 UB Poetics discussion group wrote: michel deguy comes to mind. ric carfagna wrote: > Who are the poets who best represent deconstructionist theory? <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We are enslaved by what makes us free -- intolerable paradox at the heart of speech. --Robert Kelly Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 19:54:47 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry In-Reply-To: <1170388266l.1278118l.0l@psu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sure there's a deconstructionist theory. it's the theory that the method of deconstruction produces valuable outcomes when applied to texts. and i thought he meant "representing" deconstruction in the sense that LL Cool J can be said to be "representing" Queens. ALDON L NIELSEN wrote: > there isn't really a "deconstructionist" theory -- and it's profoundly odd to think of deconstruction as a theory that a poet would then "represent." > > Still, if you're really interested in deconstruciton and poetry, a good place to look would be in Derrida's essays on Jabes and Ponge -- > > On Thu, 01 Feb 2007 19:21:16 -0800 UB Poetics discussion group wrote: > > > michel deguy comes to mind. > > ric carfagna wrote: > >>Who are the poets who best represent deconstructionist theory? > > > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > We are enslaved by > what makes us free -- intolerable > paradox at the heart of speech. > --Robert Kelly > > Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ > > Aldon L. Nielsen > Kelly Professor of American Literature > The Pennsylvania State University > 116 Burrowes > University Park, PA 16802-6200 > > (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 19:54:44 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: tlrelf Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When I was studying Deconstruction, I often wrote poems ABOUT it. . .and attempted to "stay true" to Derrida as meager as my understanding was. . . TLR > there isn't really a "deconstructionist" theory -- and it's > profoundly odd to think of deconstruction as a theory that a poet would > then "represent." > > Still, if you're really interested in deconstruciton and poetry, a good > place to look would be in Derrida's essays on Jabes and Ponge -- > > On Thu, 01 Feb 2007 19:21:16 -0800 UB Poetics discussion group wrote: > > > michel deguy comes to mind. > > ric carfagna wrote: >> Who are the poets who best represent deconstructionist theory? > > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > We are enslaved by > what makes us free -- intolerable > paradox at the heart of speech. > --Robert Kelly > > Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ > > Aldon L. Nielsen > Kelly Professor of American Literature > The Pennsylvania State University > 116 Burrowes > University Park, PA 16802-6200 > > (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 21:08:12 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry In-Reply-To: <001201c74676$5669ad80$5c189c04@Cesare> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 1-Feb-07, at 7:00 PM, ric carfagna wrote: > Who are the poets who best represent deconstructionist theory? > > In my opinion, poets do not represent theory. G. Harry Bowering, Born to hit opposite-field singles. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 22:02:44 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eireene Nealand Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry In-Reply-To: <383d51072e5fa70dabd47780dcf5f8f4@sfu.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline well, and some of the best poets were theorists like Kant. I mean, he writes using bricks, which look ugly if you don't step back to see the architecture that he's building up. Whereas Hegel writes more like Virginia Woolf--because of the way that he constructs sentences, I mean. & maybe that would be a good way to start, looking for a poet who writes "sentences" with a perforated horizon (i am thinking of melville here of course.) > > > > In my opinion, poets do not represent theory. > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 22:12:09 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Dickow Subject: dubravka, green integer In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dubravka, Green Integer is, yes, one of the publishing houses I most admire. Their catalogue is...droolworthy. Green Integer makes me *swoon*. Beautiful little books, too. Everyone should pore carefully over the wonders of Green Integer Review and its previous incarnation. And, you might read Douglas Messerli's (sorta the mastermind behind Green Integer, I believe) comments and poems on the Argotist Online lately. Amicalement, Alex www.alexdickow.net/blog/ les mots! ah quel désert à la fin merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 22:24:51 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry In-Reply-To: <578647560702012202o20517729h65d9deb333d9cbef@mail.gmail.com> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Well if "poets" can include Kant and Hegel, maybe we should also look at , oh, Bart Starr. gb On 1-Feb-07, at 10:02 PM, Eireene Nealand wrote: > well, and some of the best poets were theorists like Kant. I mean, he > writes using bricks, which look ugly if you don't step back to see the > architecture that he's building up. Whereas Hegel writes more like > Virginia Woolf--because of the way that he constructs sentences, I > mean. > > & maybe that would be a good way to start, looking for a poet who > writes "sentences" with a perforated horizon (i am thinking of > melville here of course.) > >> > >> >> In my opinion, poets do not represent theory. >> > > "Whip" Bowering Shortstop to the Gods ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 00:26:52 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Simon DeDeo Subject: deconstruction and poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed echo other e-mails that it's not the best-phrased question. But of course there is glas, http://www.hydra.umn.edu/derrida/glas1.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 07:13:51 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I remember that for Paul de Man, Rousseau was the one writer who could not be deconstructed--who was always, so to speak, way out in front of the reader/critic. George Bowering wrote: Well if "poets" can include Kant and Hegel, maybe we should also look at , oh, Bart Starr. gb On 1-Feb-07, at 10:02 PM, Eireene Nealand wrote: > well, and some of the best poets were theorists like Kant. I mean, he > writes using bricks, which look ugly if you don't step back to see the > architecture that he's building up. Whereas Hegel writes more like > Virginia Woolf--because of the way that he constructs sentences, I > mean. > > & maybe that would be a good way to start, looking for a poet who > writes "sentences" with a perforated horizon (i am thinking of > melville here of course.) > >> > >> >> In my opinion, poets do not represent theory. >> > > "Whip" Bowering Shortstop to the Gods ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 02:24:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Dylan Welch Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Re: Joanna Connors in her column in the Arts & Life section of today's (Thursday, February 1, 2007) Plain Dealer, reviews the Haiku Death Match sponsored by Mayor Frank Jackson's Rotunda Art Committee http://www.cleveland.com/entertainment/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/entertainment/1170322671208500.xml&coll=2 Too bad this story -- and the Haiku Death Match -- perpetuates the sorry misunderstanding of haiku as 5-7-5 syllables in English. In Japanese, they count sounds, not syllables, so if one writes 17 syllables in English, it's a much longer poem than what the Japanese write. Scholars and translators, not to mention the vast bulk of leading haiku poets writing in English, have put this to bed long ago (shall I list them?), yet still the misperception of haiku is rampant in North America and elsewhere in the English-speaking world. Not only is 5-7-5 the wrong target in English, but where's the season word, the cutting word or two-part juxtaposition, the sensory objective imagery? That's nearly never taught in schools. Major textbooks and curriculum guides are frequently wrong, misguided, partial, or superficial. It's a shame, and does disservice to haiku as literature in English. And books such as *Honku*, *Haikus for Jews*, and their misguided ilk merely perpetuate these misperce ptions. It's simply pseudo-haiku -- haiku in name only -- while serious haiku poets who appear in the pages of *Modern Haiku* or *Frogpond*, or in anthologies such as Cor van den Heuvel's *The Haiku Anthology* (third edition from W. W. Norton, 1999) get insufficient respect. What can be done about these misperceptions? I'm sure the Haiku Death Match was a lot of fun, but it does perpetuate the misunderstanding. Michael Dylan Welch ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 10:48:02 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anny Ballardini Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry In-Reply-To: <383d51072e5fa70dabd47780dcf5f8f4@sfu.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline This might seem a rhetorical question meant to stir waters, but believe me, it is not: what do poets represent? On 2/2/07, George Bowering wrote: > > On 1-Feb-07, at 7:00 PM, ric carfagna wrote: > > > Who are the poets who best represent deconstructionist theory? > > > > > > In my opinion, poets do not represent theory. > > > > > G. Harry Bowering, > Born to hit opposite-field singles. > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 10:57:41 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match In-Reply-To: <8C914B241AF3620-1F48-9CFC@WEBMAIL-DC17.sysops.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Why is it then that whenever I see a transliteration of a Japanese haiku it gives every appearance of having seventeen syllables? E.g., "natsu-gusa ya / tsuwamono-domo-ga / yume no ato" (Basho) Michael Dylan Welch wrote: Re: Joanna Connors in her column in the Arts & Life section of today's (Thursday, February 1, 2007) Plain Dealer, reviews the Haiku Death Match sponsored by Mayor Frank Jackson's Rotunda Art Committee http://www.cleveland.com/entertainment/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/entertainment/1170322671208500.xml&coll=2 Too bad this story -- and the Haiku Death Match -- perpetuates the sorry misunderstanding of haiku as 5-7-5 syllables in English. In Japanese, they count sounds, not syllables, so if one writes 17 syllables in English, it's a much longer poem than what the Japanese write. Scholars and translators, not to mention the vast bulk of leading haiku poets writing in English, have put this to bed long ago (shall I list them?), yet still the misperception of haiku is rampant in North America and elsewhere in the English-speaking world. Not only is 5-7-5 the wrong target in English, but where's the season word, the cutting word or two-part juxtaposition, the sensory objective imagery? That's nearly never taught in schools. Major textbooks and curriculum guides are frequently wrong, misguided, partial, or superficial. It's a shame, and does disservice to haiku as literature in English. And books such as *Honku*, *Haikus for Jews*, and their misguided ilk merely perpetuate these misperce ptions. It's simply pseudo-haiku -- haiku in name only -- while serious haiku poets who appear in the pages of *Modern Haiku* or *Frogpond*, or in anthologies such as Cor van den Heuvel's *The Haiku Anthology* (third edition from W. W. Norton, 1999) get insufficient respect. What can be done about these misperceptions? I'm sure the Haiku Death Match was a lot of fun, but it does perpetuate the misunderstanding. Michael Dylan Welch ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 06:54:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Side Subject: Contribution by Terrie Leigh Relf of NFG Magazine to The Argotist Online "Intreviews with Editors" feature. Comments: To: british-poets@jiscmail.ac.uk, wryting-l@listserv.wvu.edu There is a contribution by Terrie Leigh Relf of NFG Magazine to The Argotist Online "Intreviews with Editors" feature: http://www.argotistonline.co.uk/Terrie%20Leigh%20Relf.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 01:23:46 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wystan Curnow Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Agreed. Theorists represent poetry.=20 Wystan ________________________________ From: UB Poetics discussion group on behalf of George Bowering Sent: Fri 2/02/2007 6:08 p.m. To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry On 1-Feb-07, at 7:00 PM, ric carfagna wrote: > Who are the poets who best represent deconstructionist theory? > > In my opinion, poets do not represent theory. G. Harry Bowering, Born to hit opposite-field singles. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 07:59:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jcu Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Poets represent percepts. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anny Ballardini" To: Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 4:48 AM Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry > This might seem a rhetorical question meant to stir waters, but believe > me, > it is not: > what do poets represent? > > > On 2/2/07, George Bowering wrote: >> >> On 1-Feb-07, at 7:00 PM, ric carfagna wrote: >> >> > Who are the poets who best represent deconstructionist theory? >> > >> > >> >> In my opinion, poets do not represent theory. >> >> >> >> >> G. Harry Bowering, >> Born to hit opposite-field singles. >> > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 08:22:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jcu Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Poets represent percepts. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Anny Ballardini" > To: > Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 4:48 AM > Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry > > >> This might seem a rhetorical question meant to stir waters, but believe >> me, >> it is not: >> what do poets represent? >> >> >> On 2/2/07, George Bowering wrote: >>> >>> On 1-Feb-07, at 7:00 PM, ric carfagna wrote: >>> >>> > Who are the poets who best represent deconstructionist theory? >>> > >>> > >>> >>> In my opinion, poets do not represent theory. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> G. Harry Bowering, >>> Born to hit opposite-field singles. >>> >> > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 06:42:08 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: charles alexander Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match In-Reply-To: <296931.46614.qm@web86011.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I don't have an immediate answer to your question of "why", though I believe Michael Dylan Welch is right about this. Most of this covered in William Higginson's Haiku Handbook, but even in the haiku entry in Wikipedia one can learn that a haiku is generally (there are exceptions) 17 *on* or sounds, more like a *mora*, "a phonetic unit similar but not identical to the syllable of a language such as English." It's true that 17 English syllables is generally longer than a Japanese haiku. A syllable in English may also carry a meaning in a different way than an "on" in Japanese. Generally a 17-syllable haiku in English seems noticeably longer than a haiku in Japanese, if only a little bit. But the syllable-length issue may be a less dynamic question than the others Welch brings up, i.e. various things about seasonal words, cutting words, juxtapositions, "haiku mind," the frequent practice of linked haiku or renga (sometimes renku) to form a longer work, etc. charles At 03:57 AM 2/2/2007, you wrote: >Why is it then that whenever I see a transliteration of a Japanese haiku >it gives every appearance of having seventeen syllables? E.g., "natsu-gusa >ya / tsuwamono-domo-ga / yume no ato" (Basho) > >Michael Dylan Welch wrote: Re: Joanna Connors in her >column in the Arts & Life section of today's (Thursday, February 1, 2007) >Plain Dealer, reviews the Haiku Death Match sponsored by Mayor Frank >Jackson's Rotunda Art Committee > >http://www.cleveland.com/entertainment/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/entertainment/1170322671208500.xml&coll=2 > >Too bad this story -- and the Haiku Death Match -- perpetuates the sorry >misunderstanding of haiku as 5-7-5 syllables in English. In Japanese, they >count sounds, not syllables, so if one writes 17 syllables in English, >it's a much longer poem than what the Japanese write. Scholars and >translators, not to mention the vast bulk of leading haiku poets writing >in English, have put this to bed long ago (shall I list them?), yet still >the misperception of haiku is rampant in North America and elsewhere in >the English-speaking world. Not only is 5-7-5 the wrong target in English, >but where's the season word, the cutting word or two-part juxtaposition, >the sensory objective imagery? That's nearly never taught in schools. >Major textbooks and curriculum guides are frequently wrong, misguided, >partial, or superficial. It's a shame, and does disservice to haiku as >literature in English. And books such as *Honku*, *Haikus for Jews*, and >their misguided ilk merely perpetuate these > misperce >ptions. It's simply pseudo-haiku -- haiku in name only -- while serious >haiku poets who appear in the pages of *Modern Haiku* or *Frogpond*, or in >anthologies such as Cor van den Heuvel's *The Haiku Anthology* (third >edition from W. W. Norton, 1999) get insufficient respect. What can be >done about these misperceptions? > >I'm sure the Haiku Death Match was a lot of fun, but it does perpetuate >the misunderstanding. > >Michael Dylan Welch >________________________________________________________________________ >Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security >tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, >free AOL Mail and more. charles alexander / chax press fold the book inside the book keep it open always read from the inside out speak then ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 07:52:30 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Shaunanne Tangney Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match In-Reply-To: <296931.46614.qm@web86011.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Did I read once that in Japanese haiku there is something called a "delayed verb"--or maybe it's just delayed action: that there is no overt action in a haiku until the last line--maybe even no verb until the last line--and that this is a function of Japanese grammar that we can't do in English grammar? --ShaunAnne On Friday, February 2, 2007, at 04:57 AM, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > Why is it then that whenever I see a transliteration of a Japanese > haiku it gives every appearance of having seventeen syllables? E.g., > "natsu-gusa ya / tsuwamono-domo-ga / yume no ato" (Basho) > > Michael Dylan Welch wrote: Re: Joanna Connors in her > column in the Arts & Life section of today's (Thursday, February 1, > 2007) Plain Dealer, reviews the Haiku Death Match sponsored by Mayor > Frank Jackson's Rotunda Art Committee > > http://www.cleveland.com/entertainment/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/ > entertainment/1170322671208500.xml&coll=2 > > Too bad this story -- and the Haiku Death Match -- perpetuates the > sorry misunderstanding of haiku as 5-7-5 syllables in English. In > Japanese, they count sounds, not syllables, so if one writes 17 > syllables in English, it's a much longer poem than what the Japanese > write. Scholars and translators, not to mention the vast bulk of > leading haiku poets writing in English, have put this to bed long ago > (shall I list them?), yet still the misperception of haiku is rampant > in North America and elsewhere in the English-speaking world. Not only > is 5-7-5 the wrong target in English, but where's the season word, the > cutting word or two-part juxtaposition, the sensory objective imagery? > That's nearly never taught in schools. Major textbooks and curriculum > guides are frequently wrong, misguided, partial, or superficial. It's > a shame, and does disservice to haiku as literature in English. And > books such as *Honku*, *Haikus for Jews*, and their misguided ilk > merely perpetuate these > misperce > ptions. It's simply pseudo-haiku -- haiku in name only -- while > serious haiku poets who appear in the pages of *Modern Haiku* or > *Frogpond*, or in anthologies such as Cor van den Heuvel's *The Haiku > Anthology* (third edition from W. W. Norton, 1999) get insufficient > respect. What can be done about these misperceptions? > > I'm sure the Haiku Death Match was a lot of fun, but it does > perpetuate the misunderstanding. > > Michael Dylan Welch > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and > security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from > across the web, free AOL Mail and more. > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 08:28:07 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry In-Reply-To: <578647560702012202o20517729h65d9deb333d9cbef@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" did kant write poetry??? At 10:02 PM -0800 2/1/07, Eireene Nealand wrote: >well, and some of the best poets were theorists like Kant. I mean, he >writes using bricks, which look ugly if you don't step back to see the >architecture that he's building up. Whereas Hegel writes more like >Virginia Woolf--because of the way that he constructs sentences, I >mean. > >& maybe that would be a good way to start, looking for a poet who >writes "sentences" with a perforated horizon (i am thinking of >melville here of course.) > >> > >> >>In my opinion, poets do not represent theory. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 09:26:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aryanil Mukherjee Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70702020148s62fdb4a0uc4f936a29b32d726@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Who are the poets who best represent deconstructionist theory? sure, a poet must not be seen as the theorist's spokesperson. however, from a purely academic perspective, many critics opine that John Ashbery constructs the best example from west. Aryanil -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Anny Ballardini Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 4:48 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry This might seem a rhetorical question meant to stir waters, but believe me, it is not: what do poets represent? On 2/2/07, George Bowering wrote: > > On 1-Feb-07, at 7:00 PM, ric carfagna wrote: > > > Who are the poets who best represent deconstructionist theory? > > > > > > In my opinion, poets do not represent theory. > > > > > G. Harry Bowering, > Born to hit opposite-field singles. > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 09:08:22 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: poets in small cultures and outside gaze In-Reply-To: <00b401c74644$322cdd70$8103f0d5@b922003> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Dubravka: This is a fascinating comment & something that I suspected also. It would be interesting to here Douglas Messerli's comments on this. I'm also hoping you could give a few examples of these new experimental Serbian poets & any translations that might be available online. Certainly with the advent of the web, it must be much easier for un (der)represented to establish a virtual presence, which is at least a beginning to achieving a bit of recognition. Or if nothing else propose to one of these monstrous poetry webzines like Jacket or Big Bridge to put together a collection of the poets you think are beneath the radar. & for myself I would be also interested to know if there is a historical Serbian avant garde of which we in the west know nothing... ~mIEKAL On Feb 1, 2007, at 3:01 PM, Dubravka Djuric wrote: > dear listmemebers, > > it has been long time since i wrote something for this list. now, i > would like to comment the site of green integer. surfing, i came > upon it, and was really amaizing to see so much poets all arround > the world, including the former yugoslav poets! which i find really > great! i was specially interestied in the poets from serbia, i am > from serbia, and i was so sad to see that some right wing oriented > poets are on the list... and now i think about how in small > cultures such as serbia, you cannot have a second scene, because we > are all 'one big family', right and left, and every poet who ever > wrote experimental poetry is erased, acctually could not be > establish as a poet of any value, it doesnt fit into the picture > of great national poetry, and what you call moderate modernisam and > postmodernism, or what you call(ed) mainstream poets just that kind > of poetry do exist. other kind of poets cannot survive, they are > out of sight, out of attention of dominant culture, and of course, > they could never be in attention of outside gaze, outside > attention. i find it very very sad... i dont know how are in other > cultures outside usa..... > The covers of this book are too far apart. -- Ambrose Bierce ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 10:15:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Leland Winks Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit No, but Karl Marx certainly did! ----- Original Message ----- From: Maria Damon Date: Friday, February 2, 2007 9:28 am Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry > did kant write poetry??? > > At 10:02 PM -0800 2/1/07, Eireene Nealand wrote: > >well, and some of the best poets were theorists like Kant. I > mean, he > >writes using bricks, which look ugly if you don't step back to > see the > >architecture that he's building up. Whereas Hegel writes more like > >Virginia Woolf--because of the way that he constructs sentences, I > >mean. > > > >& maybe that would be a good way to start, looking for a poet who > >writes "sentences" with a perforated horizon (i am thinking of > >melville here of course.) > > > >> > > >> > >>In my opinion, poets do not represent theory. > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 09:16:26 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable George=97you sent me to Google with this one to find any reference to =20= Bart the poet. But alas, only a bit of hearsay. "But nothing equalled the pure grace and poetry of Bart Starr. =20 Records be damned, he was a joy to watch." http://midamericaprogressive.blogspot.com/2006/12/brett-favres-last-=20 game-at-lambeau-field.html ~mIEKAL On Feb 2, 2007, at 12:24 AM, George Bowering wrote: > Well if "poets" can include Kant and Hegel, > maybe we should also look at , oh, Bart Starr. > > > gb ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 10:30:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry In-Reply-To: <45C2B607.40106@myuw.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed and just what would the "method" of deconstruction be? and supposing that there were a "deconstructionist," how would such a person go about this representing? "There is no one, single deconstruction. Were there only one, were it homogeneous, it would not be inherently either conservative or revolutionary, or determinable within the code of such oppositions. That is precisely what gets on everyone's nerves." "'deconstruction is firstly this destabilization on the move in, if one could speak thus, 'the things themselves'; but it is not negative." "what it does is less to disturb them than to bring into the open that which is disturbing them and menacing their consistency, their order, their pertinence. " "I do not know . . . to which 'deconstructionists' you are alluding." Derrida in conversation -- LIMITED INC At 10:54 PM 2/1/2007, you wrote: >Sure there's a deconstructionist theory. it's the theory that the >method of deconstruction produces valuable outcomes when applied to texts. > >and i thought he meant "representing" deconstruction in the sense >that LL Cool J can be said to be "representing" Queens. > >ALDON L NIELSEN wrote: >>there isn't really a "deconstructionist" theory -- and >>it's profoundly odd to think of deconstruction as a theory that a >>poet would then "represent." >>Still, if you're really interested in deconstruciton and poetry, a >>good place to look would be in Derrida's essays on Jabes and Ponge -- >>On Thu, 01 Feb 2007 19:21:16 -0800 UB Poetics discussion group wrote: >> >>michel deguy comes to mind. >>ric carfagna wrote: >> >>>Who are the poets who best represent deconstructionist theory? >> >><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>We are enslaved by >>what makes us free -- intolerable >>paradox at the heart of speech. >>--Robert Kelly >>Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ >>Aldon L. Nielsen >>Kelly Professor of American Literature >>The Pennsylvania State University >>116 Burrowes >>University Park, PA 16802-6200 >>(814) 865-0091 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "I stand corrected, like a bishop of the obvious." --Robert Kelly Aldon Lynn Nielsen George and Barbara Kelly Professor of American Literature Department of English The Pennsylvania State University 112 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 [office] (814) 863-7285 [Fax] Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 23:42:59 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Marcacci Subject: MiPoRadio's THE COUNTDOWN Episode 19 featuring William Allegrezza! Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit We're at it again. I'm inviting all y'all to take a listen to THE COUNTDOWN #19, my irregularly released podcast for MiPoRadio. You can do that by going to and clicking the obvious. My last show from the three-dot capital... Episode 19 highlights the poetry of William Allegrezza, and also stars these poets and bloggers from around the world: Jill Chan, Peter Ciccariello, Del Ray Cross, AnnMarie Eldon, Juan Jose Martinez, Shin Yu Pai, Carol Peters, Rachel Phillips, Larry Sawyer & Mark Young. If you like what you hear and you would like me to consider your own blog's offspring for future shows, send me a message and we'll add you to THE COUNTDOWN's blogroll. Comments and conversay appreciated, front or backchannel. Thanks for tuning in and special thanks to all the fine poets who recorded work for this one! -- Bob Marcacci Most of us are just about as happy as we make up our minds to be. - Abraham Lincoln ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 10:53:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: two more losses In-Reply-To: <383d51072e5fa70dabd47780dcf5f8f4@sfu.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >Obituaries in the NY TIMES today for both Gian Carlo Menotti and >Whitney Balliett -- two great popularizers of music -- AND lyric -- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "I stand corrected, like a bishop of the obvious." --Robert Kelly Aldon Lynn Nielsen George and Barbara Kelly Professor of American Literature Department of English The Pennsylvania State University 112 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 [office] (814) 863-7285 [Fax] Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 08:16:44 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amy king Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry In-Reply-To: <383d51072e5fa70dabd47780dcf5f8f4@sfu.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In fact, poets are theory incarnate. George Bowering wrote: On 1-Feb-07, at 7:00 PM, ric carfagna wrote: > Who are the poets who best represent deconstructionist theory? > > In my opinion, poets do not represent theory. --------------------------------- 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 10:16:54 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Simon DeDeo Subject: deconstruction and predictability MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed I had a feeling that e-mails like Aldon Nielsen's would start to arrive. What is it about Derrida that brings out this kinda "gotcha" in people? Deconstruction is a practice like any other. I'll venture that it's far more pinned down by norms than poetry. I wonder if Derrida lists give these kind of responses about poetry. Actually, I bet they do! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 10:20:14 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" like, "poetry" poetry? or are you referring to the inspired commodity fantasies of Kapital? At 10:15 AM -0500 2/2/07, Christopher Leland Winks wrote: >No, but Karl Marx certainly did! > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Maria Damon >Date: Friday, February 2, 2007 9:28 am >Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry > >> did kant write poetry??? >> >> At 10:02 PM -0800 2/1/07, Eireene Nealand wrote: >> >well, and some of the best poets were theorists like Kant. I >> mean, he >> >writes using bricks, which look ugly if you don't step back to >> see the >> >architecture that he's building up. Whereas Hegel writes more like >> >Virginia Woolf--because of the way that he constructs sentences, I >> >mean. >> > >> >& maybe that would be a good way to start, looking for a poet who >> >writes "sentences" with a perforated horizon (i am thinking of >> >melville here of course.) >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>In my opinion, poets do not represent theory. >> ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 10:16:44 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Tom W. Lewis" Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20070202062717.02dbf160@mail.theriver.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There's a "three-mora rule" (Dreimorengesetz) for ancient Greek and Latin words -- does the same go for Japanese?=20 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreimorengesetz) Could I get a good translation, taking into account the quantities of the Japanese original, as an example of how a haiku *should* read?=20 tl veteran (pseudo-)haiku warrior -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of charles alexander Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 7:42 To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match I don't have an immediate answer to your question of "why", though I=20 believe Michael Dylan Welch is right about this. Most of this covered in William Higginson's Haiku Handbook, but even in the haiku entry in=20 Wikipedia one can learn that a haiku is generally (there are exceptions) 17=20 *on* or sounds, more like a *mora*, "a phonetic unit similar but not=20 identical to the syllable of a language such as English." It's true that 17=20 English syllables is generally longer than a Japanese haiku. A syllable in=20 English may also carry a meaning in a different way than an "on" in=20 Japanese. Generally a 17-syllable haiku in English seems noticeably longer=20 than a haiku in Japanese, if only a little bit. But the syllable-length issue may be a less dynamic question than the others Welch brings up, i.e.=20 various things about seasonal words, cutting words, juxtapositions, "haiku=20 mind," the frequent practice of linked haiku or renga (sometimes renku) to=20 form a longer work, etc. charles At 03:57 AM 2/2/2007, you wrote: >Why is it then that whenever I see a transliteration of a Japanese haiku=20 >it gives every appearance of having seventeen syllables? E.g., "natsu-gusa=20 >ya / tsuwamono-domo-ga / yume no ato" (Basho) > >Michael Dylan Welch wrote: Re: Joanna Connors in her=20 >column in the Arts & Life section of today's (Thursday, February 1, 2007)=20 >Plain Dealer, reviews the Haiku Death Match sponsored by Mayor Frank=20 >Jackson's Rotunda Art Committee > >http://www.cleveland.com/entertainment/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/ente rtainment/1170322671208500.xml&coll=3D2 > >Too bad this story -- and the Haiku Death Match -- perpetuates the sorry=20 >misunderstanding of haiku as 5-7-5 syllables in English. In Japanese, they=20 >count sounds, not syllables, so if one writes 17 syllables in English,=20 >it's a much longer poem than what the Japanese write. Scholars and=20 >translators, not to mention the vast bulk of leading haiku poets writing=20 >in English, have put this to bed long ago (shall I list them?), yet still=20 >the misperception of haiku is rampant in North America and elsewhere in >the English-speaking world. Not only is 5-7-5 the wrong target in English,=20 >but where's the season word, the cutting word or two-part juxtaposition,=20 >the sensory objective imagery? That's nearly never taught in schools.=20 >Major textbooks and curriculum guides are frequently wrong, misguided,=20 >partial, or superficial. It's a shame, and does disservice to haiku as=20 >literature in English. And books such as *Honku*, *Haikus for Jews*, and=20 >their misguided ilk merely perpetuate these > misperce >ptions. It's simply pseudo-haiku -- haiku in name only -- while serious >haiku poets who appear in the pages of *Modern Haiku* or *Frogpond*, or in=20 >anthologies such as Cor van den Heuvel's *The Haiku Anthology* (third=20 >edition from W. W. Norton, 1999) get insufficient respect. What can be=20 >done about these misperceptions? > >I'm sure the Haiku Death Match was a lot of fun, but it does perpetuate >the misunderstanding. > >Michael Dylan Welch >_______________________________________________________________________ _ >Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security=20 >tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web,=20 >free AOL Mail and more. charles alexander / chax press fold the book inside the book keep it open always read from the inside out speak then=20 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 11:23:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry In-Reply-To: <20070202161644.28906.qmail@web83311.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed In the sense that the world, or for that matter breakfast cereal, is theory incarnate? At 11:16 AM 2/2/2007, you wrote: >In fact, poets are theory incarnate. > > >George Bowering wrote: > On 1-Feb-07, at 7:00 PM, ric carfagna wrote: > > > Who are the poets who best represent deconstructionist theory? > > > > > >In my opinion, poets do not represent theory. > > > >--------------------------------- >8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time > with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 08:28:08 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amy king Subject: Re: deconstruction and predictability In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit And though he certainly never intended it to spin the way it did and still does, Derrida himself acknowledged the practice of deconstruction and clarified its intent many times over. For an easy start, his earlier interviews (first volume of collected - title escapes me right now) work well. His thinking through poetry and process, as related to deconstruction, among other considersations, are evidenced in his focus on a few poets' work, especially on de Man, though their relationship is hotly debated, for obvious reasons. My last post of the day, so happy weekend all! Simon DeDeo wrote: I had a feeling that e-mails like Aldon Nielsen's would start to arrive. What is it about Derrida that brings out this kinda "gotcha" in people? Deconstruction is a practice like any other. I'll venture that it's far more pinned down by norms than poetry. --------------------------------- Need Mail bonding? Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 10:41:59 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match In-Reply-To: <54AA9B41BC35F34EAD02E660901D8A5A0A052B5C@TLRUSMNEAGMBX10.ERF.THOMSON.COM > Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" While I think it's a good idea to understand that 5-7-5 is simply a convenience of sorts, even something of a mistranslation (even something of a cultural oversight), I feel about this pretty much the way I feel about bending any formal rule. I.e., it's fun to use 5-7-5 as an arbitrary constraint in composing haiku, just as it's fun to use 14 lines as an arbitrary constraint in composing sonnets. (Which latter might not result in 14 lines, ysee, but that won't keep me from calling it a sonnet.) Granted, correcting the misconception is one thing. But having fun with same is quite another, which, to me, is one reason I write poetry. Best, Joe >There's a "three-mora rule" (Dreimorengesetz) for ancient Greek and >Latin words -- does the same go for Japanese? > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreimorengesetz) > >Could I get a good translation, taking into account the quantities of >the Japanese original, as an example of how a haiku *should* read? > >tl >veteran (pseudo-)haiku warrior > > >-----Original Message----- >From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] >On Behalf Of charles alexander >Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 7:42 >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match > >I don't have an immediate answer to your question of "why", though I >believe Michael Dylan Welch is right about this. Most of this covered in > >William Higginson's Haiku Handbook, but even in the haiku entry in >Wikipedia one can learn that a haiku is generally (there are exceptions) >17 >*on* or sounds, more like a *mora*, "a phonetic unit similar but not >identical to the syllable of a language such as English." It's true that >17 >English syllables is generally longer than a Japanese haiku. A syllable >in >English may also carry a meaning in a different way than an "on" in >Japanese. Generally a 17-syllable haiku in English seems noticeably >longer >than a haiku in Japanese, if only a little bit. But the syllable-length > >issue may be a less dynamic question than the others Welch brings up, >i.e. >various things about seasonal words, cutting words, juxtapositions, >"haiku >mind," the frequent practice of linked haiku or renga (sometimes renku) >to >form a longer work, etc. > >charles > >At 03:57 AM 2/2/2007, you wrote: >>Why is it then that whenever I see a transliteration of a Japanese >haiku >>it gives every appearance of having seventeen syllables? E.g., >"natsu-gusa >>ya / tsuwamono-domo-ga / yume no ato" (Basho) >> >>Michael Dylan Welch wrote: Re: Joanna Connors in her >>column in the Arts & Life section of today's (Thursday, February 1, >2007) >>Plain Dealer, reviews the Haiku Death Match sponsored by Mayor Frank >>Jackson's Rotunda Art Committee >> >>http://www.cleveland.com/entertainment/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/ente >rtainment/1170322671208500.xml&coll=2 >> >>Too bad this story -- and the Haiku Death Match -- perpetuates the >sorry >>misunderstanding of haiku as 5-7-5 syllables in English. In Japanese, >they >>count sounds, not syllables, so if one writes 17 syllables in English, >>it's a much longer poem than what the Japanese write. Scholars and >>translators, not to mention the vast bulk of leading haiku poets >writing >>in English, have put this to bed long ago (shall I list them?), yet >still >>the misperception of haiku is rampant in North America and elsewhere in > >>the English-speaking world. Not only is 5-7-5 the wrong target in >English, >>but where's the season word, the cutting word or two-part >juxtaposition, >>the sensory objective imagery? That's nearly never taught in schools. >>Major textbooks and curriculum guides are frequently wrong, misguided, >>partial, or superficial. It's a shame, and does disservice to haiku as >>literature in English. And books such as *Honku*, *Haikus for Jews*, >and >>their misguided ilk merely perpetuate these >> misperce >>ptions. It's simply pseudo-haiku -- haiku in name only -- while serious > >>haiku poets who appear in the pages of *Modern Haiku* or *Frogpond*, or >in >>anthologies such as Cor van den Heuvel's *The Haiku Anthology* (third > >edition from W. W. Norton, 1999) get insufficient respect. What can be >>done about these misperceptions? >> >>I'm sure the Haiku Death Match was a lot of fun, but it does perpetuate > >>the misunderstanding. >> >>Michael Dylan Welch >>_______________________________________________________________________ >_ >>Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and >security >>tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the >web, >>free AOL Mail and more. > >charles alexander / chax press > >fold the book inside the book keep it open always > read from the inside out speak then ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 11:00:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Loucks, James" Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070202101716.02418a00@psu.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable How about my coming over to your house next Sunday at 2? Hope all is going well. Jeff just told me he traded the Saab in for a new Focus wagon. I am glad he made that move. It will be a lot safer and more reliable.=20 I will call you in the middle of next week to see how you are doing. -- love, -- Dad James Loucks, Ph.D. Department of English OSU-Newark 1179 University Drive Newark, OH 43055-1797 FAX: 740-366-5047 loucks.1@osu.edu blog: www.jlouckscourses.blogspot.com=20 -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Aldon Nielsen Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 10:30 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry and just what would the "method" of deconstruction be? and supposing=20 that there were a "deconstructionist," how would such a person go=20 about this representing? "There is no one, single deconstruction. Were there only one, were=20 it homogeneous, it would not be inherently either conservative or=20 revolutionary, or determinable within the code of such=20 oppositions. That is precisely what gets on everyone's nerves." "'deconstruction is firstly this destabilization on the move in, if=20 one could speak thus, 'the things themselves'; but it is not negative." "what it does is less to disturb them than to bring into the open=20 that which is disturbing them and menacing their consistency, their=20 order, their pertinence. " "I do not know . . . to which 'deconstructionists' you are alluding." Derrida in conversation -- LIMITED INC At 10:54 PM 2/1/2007, you wrote: >Sure there's a deconstructionist theory. it's the theory that the=20 >method of deconstruction produces valuable outcomes when applied to texts. > >and i thought he meant "representing" deconstruction in the sense=20 >that LL Cool J can be said to be "representing" Queens. > >ALDON L NIELSEN wrote: >>there isn't really a "deconstructionist" theory -- and=20 >>it's profoundly odd to think of deconstruction as a theory that a=20 >>poet would then "represent." >>Still, if you're really interested in deconstruciton and poetry, a=20 >>good place to look would be in Derrida's essays on Jabes and Ponge -- >>On Thu, 01 Feb 2007 19:21:16 -0800 UB Poetics discussion group wrote: >> >>michel deguy comes to mind. >>ric carfagna wrote: >> >>>Who are the poets who best represent deconstructionist theory? >> >><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>We are enslaved by >>what makes us free -- intolerable >>paradox at the heart of speech. >>--Robert Kelly >>Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ >>Aldon L. Nielsen >>Kelly Professor of American Literature >>The Pennsylvania State University >>116 Burrowes >>University Park, PA 16802-6200 >>(814) 865-0091 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "I stand corrected, like a bishop of the obvious." --Robert Kelly Aldon Lynn Nielsen George and Barbara Kelly Professor of American Literature Department of English The Pennsylvania State University 112 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 [office] (814) 863-7285 [Fax] Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/=20 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 11:52:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: poets in small cultures and outside gaze In-Reply-To: <68A782DA-C66A-4C3B-B543-6F0AD8D07C6D@mwt.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline mIEKAL, The avant-garde in a country like Serbia, or others places, may work differently, having other points of reference. Is the avant-garde more a matter of spirit, rather than associated with a specific style? Is it a style or an idea? The virtual space gives us a chance to discuss these points without all of us being around a coffee house table though that would be even better. Ciao, Murat On 2/2/07, mIEKAL aND wrote: > > Dubravka: > > This is a fascinating comment & something that I suspected also. It > would be interesting to here Douglas Messerli's comments on this. I'm > also hoping you could give a few examples of these new experimental > Serbian poets & any translations that might be available online. > Certainly with the advent of the web, it must be much easier for un > (der)represented to establish a virtual presence, which is at least a > beginning to achieving a bit of recognition. Or if nothing else > propose to one of these monstrous poetry webzines like Jacket or Big > Bridge to put together a collection of the poets you think are > beneath the radar. > > & for myself I would be also interested to know if there is a > historical Serbian avant garde of which we in the west know nothing... > > ~mIEKAL > > > On Feb 1, 2007, at 3:01 PM, Dubravka Djuric wrote: > > > dear listmemebers, > > > > it has been long time since i wrote something for this list. now, i > > would like to comment the site of green integer. surfing, i came > > upon it, and was really amaizing to see so much poets all arround > > the world, including the former yugoslav poets! which i find really > > great! i was specially interestied in the poets from serbia, i am > > from serbia, and i was so sad to see that some right wing oriented > > poets are on the list... and now i think about how in small > > cultures such as serbia, you cannot have a second scene, because we > > are all 'one big family', right and left, and every poet who ever > > wrote experimental poetry is erased, acctually could not be > > establish as a poet of any value, it doesnt fit into the picture > > of great national poetry, and what you call moderate modernisam and > > postmodernism, or what you call(ed) mainstream poets just that kind > > of poetry do exist. other kind of poets cannot survive, they are > > out of sight, out of attention of dominant culture, and of course, > > they could never be in attention of outside gaze, outside > > attention. i find it very very sad... i dont know how are in other > > cultures outside usa..... > > > > The covers of this book are too far apart. -- Ambrose Bierce > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 12:00:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hiroaki Sato, who translated I think all the poems in his Japanese anthology (Literature of Eight Islands?), said that a haiku is written in a single line and the division into three lines (5-7-5) was a western invention. He even had done a series of haiku translations in single lines, very interesting ones since they undercut exactly that split between objective concrete (nature) and concluding inspiration. Of course, I do not know how much of this Hiro made up. Ciao, Murat On 2/2/07, Joe Amato wrote: > > While I think it's a good idea to understand that 5-7-5 is simply a > convenience of sorts, even something of a mistranslation (even > something of a cultural oversight), I feel about this pretty much the > way I feel about bending any formal rule. I.e., it's fun to use > 5-7-5 as an arbitrary constraint in composing haiku, just as it's fun > to use 14 lines as an arbitrary constraint in composing sonnets. > (Which latter might not result in 14 lines, ysee, but that won't keep > me from calling it a sonnet.) > > Granted, correcting the misconception is one thing. But having fun > with same is quite another, which, to me, is one reason I write > poetry. > > Best, > > Joe > > > >There's a "three-mora rule" (Dreimorengesetz) for ancient Greek and > >Latin words -- does the same go for Japanese? > > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreimorengesetz) > > > >Could I get a good translation, taking into account the quantities of > >the Japanese original, as an example of how a haiku *should* read? > > > >tl > >veteran (pseudo-)haiku warrior > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] > >On Behalf Of charles alexander > >Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 7:42 > >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match > > > >I don't have an immediate answer to your question of "why", though I > >believe Michael Dylan Welch is right about this. Most of this covered in > > > >William Higginson's Haiku Handbook, but even in the haiku entry in > >Wikipedia one can learn that a haiku is generally (there are exceptions) > >17 > >*on* or sounds, more like a *mora*, "a phonetic unit similar but not > >identical to the syllable of a language such as English." It's true that > >17 > >English syllables is generally longer than a Japanese haiku. A syllable > >in > >English may also carry a meaning in a different way than an "on" in > >Japanese. Generally a 17-syllable haiku in English seems noticeably > >longer > >than a haiku in Japanese, if only a little bit. But the syllable-length > > > >issue may be a less dynamic question than the others Welch brings up, > >i.e. > >various things about seasonal words, cutting words, juxtapositions, > >"haiku > >mind," the frequent practice of linked haiku or renga (sometimes renku) > >to > >form a longer work, etc. > > > >charles > > > >At 03:57 AM 2/2/2007, you wrote: > >>Why is it then that whenever I see a transliteration of a Japanese > >haiku > >>it gives every appearance of having seventeen syllables? E.g., > >"natsu-gusa > >>ya / tsuwamono-domo-ga / yume no ato" (Basho) > >> > >>Michael Dylan Welch wrote: Re: Joanna Connors in her > >>column in the Arts & Life section of today's (Thursday, February 1, > >2007) > >>Plain Dealer, reviews the Haiku Death Match sponsored by Mayor Frank > >>Jackson's Rotunda Art Committee > >> > >>http://www.cleveland.com/entertainment/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/ente > >rtainment/1170322671208500.xml&coll=2 > >> > >>Too bad this story -- and the Haiku Death Match -- perpetuates the > >sorry > >>misunderstanding of haiku as 5-7-5 syllables in English. In Japanese, > >they > >>count sounds, not syllables, so if one writes 17 syllables in English, > >>it's a much longer poem than what the Japanese write. Scholars and > >>translators, not to mention the vast bulk of leading haiku poets > >writing > >>in English, have put this to bed long ago (shall I list them?), yet > >still > >>the misperception of haiku is rampant in North America and elsewhere in > > > >>the English-speaking world. Not only is 5-7-5 the wrong target in > >English, > >>but where's the season word, the cutting word or two-part > >juxtaposition, > >>the sensory objective imagery? That's nearly never taught in schools. > >>Major textbooks and curriculum guides are frequently wrong, misguided, > >>partial, or superficial. It's a shame, and does disservice to haiku as > >>literature in English. And books such as *Honku*, *Haikus for Jews*, > >and > >>their misguided ilk merely perpetuate these > >> misperce > >>ptions. It's simply pseudo-haiku -- haiku in name only -- while serious > > > >>haiku poets who appear in the pages of *Modern Haiku* or *Frogpond*, or > >in > >>anthologies such as Cor van den Heuvel's *The Haiku Anthology* (third > > >edition from W. W. Norton, 1999) get insufficient respect. What can be > >>done about these misperceptions? > >> > >>I'm sure the Haiku Death Match was a lot of fun, but it does perpetuate > > > >>the misunderstanding. > >> > >>Michael Dylan Welch > >>_______________________________________________________________________ > >_ > >>Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and > >security > >>tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the > >web, > >>free AOL Mail and more. > > > >charles alexander / chax press > > > >fold the book inside the book keep it open always > > read from the inside out speak then > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 12:16:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed rearrange the letters of his name and you get 'tank' - that says it all! - Alan On Fri, 2 Feb 2007, Maria Damon wrote: > did kant write poetry??? > > At 10:02 PM -0800 2/1/07, Eireene Nealand wrote: >> well, and some of the best poets were theorists like Kant. I mean, he >> writes using bricks, which look ugly if you don't step back to see the >> architecture that he's building up. Whereas Hegel writes more like >> Virginia Woolf--because of the way that he constructs sentences, I >> mean. >> >> & maybe that would be a good way to start, looking for a poet who >> writes "sentences" with a perforated horizon (i am thinking of >> melville here of course.) >> >>> > >>> >>> In my opinion, poets do not represent theory. > > ======================================================================= Work on YouTube, blog at http://nikuko.blogspot.com . Tel 718-813-3285. Webpage directory http://www.asondheim.org . Email: sondheim@panix.com. http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim for theory; also check WVU Zwiki, Google for recent. Write for info on books, cds, performance, dvds, etc. ============================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 12:19:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Leland Winks Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Those, certainly, but also his youthful, hyper-romantic love poems to Jenny von Westphalen -- which City Lights published a long time ago. See also Peter Demetz, "Karl Marx and the Poets," and S.S. Prawer, "Karl Marx and World Literature" -- Marx was always inspired by poetry. ----- Original Message ----- From: Maria Damon Date: Friday, February 2, 2007 11:20 am Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry > like, "poetry" poetry? or are you referring to the inspired > commodity > fantasies of Kapital? > > At 10:15 AM -0500 2/2/07, Christopher Leland Winks wrote: > >No, but Karl Marx certainly did! > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Maria Damon > >Date: Friday, February 2, 2007 9:28 am > >Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry > > > >> did kant write poetry??? > >> > >> At 10:02 PM -0800 2/1/07, Eireene Nealand wrote: > >> >well, and some of the best poets were theorists like Kant. I > >> mean, he > >> >writes using bricks, which look ugly if you don't step back to > >> see the > >> >architecture that he's building up. Whereas Hegel writes > more like > >> >Virginia Woolf--because of the way that he constructs > sentences, I > >> >mean. > >> > > >> >& maybe that would be a good way to start, looking for a poet who > >> >writes "sentences" with a perforated horizon (i am thinking of > >> >melville here of course.) > >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >>In my opinion, poets do not represent theory. > >> > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 12:22:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: [WDL] Sondheim's ORDERS OF THE REAL (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="0-746031199-1170436966=:10341" This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --0-746031199-1170436966=:10341 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Work on YouTube, blog at http://nikuko.blogspot.com . Tel 718-813-3285. Webpage directory http://www.asondheim.org . Email: sondheim@panix.com. http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim for theory; also check WVU Zwiki, Google for recent. Write for info on books, cds, performance, dvds, etc. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 10:54:05 -0000 From: Lawrence Upton Reply-To: WRITING-AND-THE-DIGITAL-LIFE@JISCMAIL.AC.UK To: WRITING-AND-THE-DIGITAL-LIFE@JISCMAIL.AC.UK Subject: [WDL] Sondheim's ORDERS OF THE REAL Writers Forum has reprinted Alan Sondheim's _ORDERS OF THE REAL_ - a gather= ing of numerous speculative and other articles on the digital life and rela= ted matters Sondheim, Alan; Orders of the real;44 pp; A4 portrait; cover by author; 18 = June 2005; reprinted January 2007; ISBN 1 84254 601 5; =A34.00 + =A31.50 (p= & p for UK) i.e. UK Total is =A35.50. North America =A37.00. elsewhere please ask At the moment it is only possible to purchase it by cheque or cash (when we= run bookstalls at events). Paypal will be reinstated as soon as Paypal can= get their heads round it Until then, I am sorry but we need a sterling cheque - non-sterling cheques= add =A39 [this is required because HSBC shareholders are so poor - WF does= n't get any of it] Cheques payable to Writers Forum Writers Forum 32 Downside Road Sutton Surrey SM2 5HP If this is all impossible, contact me and let's see if something can be wor= ked out ----------------------------------------------------------- "that microcephalic bore (i.e. fuckwit) Lawrence Upton" Sean O'Brien, discerning critic Archive of the Now http://www.archiveofthenow.com/ British Electronic Poetry Centre http://www.soton.ac.uk/~bepc/poets/upton.h= tm Personal Page http://www.myspace.com/lawrenceupton Personal Page http://pages.britishlibrary.net/lawrence.upton/ (due to move = somewhere! shortly) WF Workshop: http://writersforumpublications.blogspot.com/ WF publications: http://writersforum-workshop.blogspot.com/ ********** * Visit the Writing and the Digital Life blog http://www.hum.dmu.ac.uk/blog= s/wdl/ * To alter your subscription settings on this list, log on to Subscriber's = Corner at http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/writing-and-the-digital-life.html * To unsubscribe from the list, email listserv@jiscmail.ac.uk with a blank = subject line and the following text in the body of the message: SIGNOFF WRI= TING-AND-THE-DIGITAL-LIFE --0-746031199-1170436966=:10341-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 12:18:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Loucks, James" Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry In-Reply-To: <185EDFC7ED559C41A0EA62B52C50200F03B14EA1@CAMPUS01.newark-campus.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable To all, -- Please forgive me for posting my family mail in the Poetics Listserv. Do not know how that happened! -- Jim James Loucks, Ph.D. Department of English OSU-Newark 1179 University Drive Newark, OH 43055-1797 FAX: 740-366-5047 loucks.1@osu.edu blog: http://jlouckscourses.blogspot.com =20 -----Original Message----- From: Loucks, James=20 Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 11:01 AM To: UB Poetics discussion group Cc: Loucks, James Subject: RE: deconstruction and poetry How about my coming over to your house next Sunday at 2? Hope all is going well. Jeff just told me he traded the Saab in for a new Focus wagon. I am glad he made that move. It will be a lot safer and more reliable.=20 I will call you in the middle of next week to see how you are doing. -- love, -- Dad James Loucks, Ph.D. Department of English OSU-Newark 1179 University Drive Newark, OH 43055-1797 FAX: 740-366-5047 loucks.1@osu.edu blog: www.jlouckscourses.blogspot.com=20 -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Aldon Nielsen Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 10:30 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry and just what would the "method" of deconstruction be? and supposing=20 that there were a "deconstructionist," how would such a person go=20 about this representing? "There is no one, single deconstruction. Were there only one, were=20 it homogeneous, it would not be inherently either conservative or=20 revolutionary, or determinable within the code of such=20 oppositions. That is precisely what gets on everyone's nerves." "'deconstruction is firstly this destabilization on the move in, if=20 one could speak thus, 'the things themselves'; but it is not negative." "what it does is less to disturb them than to bring into the open=20 that which is disturbing them and menacing their consistency, their=20 order, their pertinence. " "I do not know . . . to which 'deconstructionists' you are alluding." Derrida in conversation -- LIMITED INC At 10:54 PM 2/1/2007, you wrote: >Sure there's a deconstructionist theory. it's the theory that the=20 >method of deconstruction produces valuable outcomes when applied to texts. > >and i thought he meant "representing" deconstruction in the sense=20 >that LL Cool J can be said to be "representing" Queens. > >ALDON L NIELSEN wrote: >>there isn't really a "deconstructionist" theory -- and=20 >>it's profoundly odd to think of deconstruction as a theory that a=20 >>poet would then "represent." >>Still, if you're really interested in deconstruciton and poetry, a=20 >>good place to look would be in Derrida's essays on Jabes and Ponge -- >>On Thu, 01 Feb 2007 19:21:16 -0800 UB Poetics discussion group wrote: >> >>michel deguy comes to mind. >>ric carfagna wrote: >> >>>Who are the poets who best represent deconstructionist theory? >> >><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>We are enslaved by >>what makes us free -- intolerable >>paradox at the heart of speech. >>--Robert Kelly >>Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ >>Aldon L. Nielsen >>Kelly Professor of American Literature >>The Pennsylvania State University >>116 Burrowes >>University Park, PA 16802-6200 >>(814) 865-0091 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "I stand corrected, like a bishop of the obvious." --Robert Kelly Aldon Lynn Nielsen George and Barbara Kelly Professor of American Literature Department of English The Pennsylvania State University 112 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 [office] (814) 863-7285 [Fax] Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/=20 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 12:43:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Deborah Poe Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry (la famille de loucks) In-Reply-To: <185EDFC7ED559C41A0EA62B52C50200F03B14EEB@CAMPUS01.newark-campus.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I thought it was a gesture to deconstruction. "We will let these yarns of suns and sons spin on for a while." Jacques Derrida -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Loucks, James Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 12:19 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry To all, -- Please forgive me for posting my family mail in the Poetics Listserv. Do not know how that happened! -- Jim James Loucks, Ph.D. Department of English OSU-Newark 1179 University Drive Newark, OH 43055-1797 FAX: 740-366-5047 loucks.1@osu.edu blog: http://jlouckscourses.blogspot.com -----Original Message----- From: Loucks, James Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 11:01 AM To: UB Poetics discussion group Cc: Loucks, James Subject: RE: deconstruction and poetry How about my coming over to your house next Sunday at 2? Hope all is going well. Jeff just told me he traded the Saab in for a new Focus wagon. I am glad he made that move. It will be a lot safer and more reliable. I will call you in the middle of next week to see how you are doing. -- love, -- Dad James Loucks, Ph.D. Department of English OSU-Newark 1179 University Drive Newark, OH 43055-1797 FAX: 740-366-5047 loucks.1@osu.edu blog: www.jlouckscourses.blogspot.com -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Aldon Nielsen Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 10:30 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry and just what would the "method" of deconstruction be? and supposing that there were a "deconstructionist," how would such a person go about this representing? "There is no one, single deconstruction. Were there only one, were it homogeneous, it would not be inherently either conservative or revolutionary, or determinable within the code of such oppositions. That is precisely what gets on everyone's nerves." "'deconstruction is firstly this destabilization on the move in, if one could speak thus, 'the things themselves'; but it is not negative." "what it does is less to disturb them than to bring into the open that which is disturbing them and menacing their consistency, their order, their pertinence. " "I do not know . . . to which 'deconstructionists' you are alluding." Derrida in conversation -- LIMITED INC At 10:54 PM 2/1/2007, you wrote: >Sure there's a deconstructionist theory. it's the theory that the >method of deconstruction produces valuable outcomes when applied to texts. > >and i thought he meant "representing" deconstruction in the sense >that LL Cool J can be said to be "representing" Queens. > >ALDON L NIELSEN wrote: >>there isn't really a "deconstructionist" theory -- and >>it's profoundly odd to think of deconstruction as a theory that a >>poet would then "represent." >>Still, if you're really interested in deconstruciton and poetry, a >>good place to look would be in Derrida's essays on Jabes and Ponge -- >>On Thu, 01 Feb 2007 19:21:16 -0800 UB Poetics discussion group wrote: >> >>michel deguy comes to mind. >>ric carfagna wrote: >> >>>Who are the poets who best represent deconstructionist theory? >> >><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>We are enslaved by >>what makes us free -- intolerable >>paradox at the heart of speech. >>--Robert Kelly >>Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ >>Aldon L. Nielsen >>Kelly Professor of American Literature >>The Pennsylvania State University >>116 Burrowes >>University Park, PA 16802-6200 >>(814) 865-0091 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "I stand corrected, like a bishop of the obvious." --Robert Kelly Aldon Lynn Nielsen George and Barbara Kelly Professor of American Literature Department of English The Pennsylvania State University 112 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 [office] (814) 863-7285 [Fax] Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 10:02:17 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: poets in small cultures and outside gaze Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I am forwarding this following note from Doug Messerlli: I just wanted to say that my ongoing PIP (Project for Innovative Poetry) listing on the Green Integer site is not meant to be a tombstone to some sort of past notion of poetic achievement, but an ongoing bibliographic resource with vital younger poets added as they publish new and major poetic work. Accordingly, I seek out any suggestions and additions, simply asking for complete bibliographical material, a photo, and a listing, in the original language, of the books (with publisher name, city and date). With regard to Dubrvka Djuric's statements, accordingly, the writers she enjoys and world obviously hope to promote do not necessarily need to be "erased" or ignored. Green Integer also seeks out new translations on any interesting figures in any language. Douglas Messerli Douglas Messerli www.greeninteger.com info@greeninteger.com http://writing.upenn.edu/pepc/authors/messerli mIEKAL, The avant-garde in a country like Serbia, or others places, may work differently, having other points of reference. Is the avant-garde more a matter of spirit, rather than associated with a specific style? Is it a style or an idea? The virtual space gives us a chance to discuss these points without all of us being around a coffee house table though that would be even better. Ciao, Murat On 2/2/07, mIEKAL aND wrote: > > Dubravka: > > This is a fascinating comment & something that I suspected also. It > would be interesting to here Douglas Messerli's comments on this. I'm > also hoping you could give a few examples of these new experimental > Serbian poets & any translations that might be available online. > Certainly with the advent of the web, it must be much easier for un > (der)represented to establish a virtual presence, which is at least a > beginning to achieving a bit of recognition. Or if nothing else > propose to one of these monstrous poetry webzines like Jacket or Big > Bridge to put together a collection of the poets you think are > beneath the radar. > > & for myself I would be also interested to know if there is a > historical Serbian avant garde of which we in the west know nothing... > > ~mIEKAL > > Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 22:01:16 +0100 > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: poets in small cultures and outside gaze > > dear listmemebers, > > it has been long time since i wrote something for this list. now, i would > like to comment the site of green integer. surfing, i >came upon it, and was really amaizing to see so much poets all arround the >world, including the former yugoslav poets! which i find really great! i was >specially interestied in the poets from serbia, i am from serbia, >and i was so sad to see that some right wing oriented poets are on the >list... and now i think about how in small cultures such as serbia, you cannot >have a second scene, because we are all 'one big family', right and left, and >every poet who ever wrote experimental poetry is erased, acctually could not >be establish as a poet of any value, it doesnt fit into the picture of >great national poetry, and what you call moderate modernisam and postmodernism, >or what you call(ed) mainstream poets just that kind of poetry do >exist. other kind of poets cannot survive, they are out of sight, out of >attention of dominant culture, and of course, they could never be in attention >of outside gaze, outside attention. i find it very very sad... i dont >know how are in other cultures outside usa..... > > ------ End of Forwarded Message > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 13:18:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcus Bales Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry Comments: To: "Loucks, James" In-Reply-To: <185EDFC7ED559C41A0EA62B52C50200F03B14EEB@CAMPUS01.newark-campus.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT And here I thought it was a clever and subtle commentary on how deconstruction is bullshit. M On 2 Feb 2007 at 12:18, Loucks, James wrote: > To all, -- Please forgive me for posting my family mail in the > Poetics > Listserv. Do not know how that happened! -- Jim > > James Loucks, Ph.D. > Department of English > OSU-Newark > 1179 University Drive > Newark, OH 43055-1797 > FAX: 740-366-5047 > loucks.1@osu.edu > blog: http://jlouckscourses.blogspot.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Loucks, James > Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 11:01 AM > To: UB Poetics discussion group > Cc: Loucks, James > Subject: RE: deconstruction and poetry > > How about my coming over to your house next Sunday at 2? Hope all > is > going well. > > Jeff just told me he traded the Saab in for a new Focus wagon. I am > glad > he made that move. It will be a lot safer and more reliable. > > I will call you in the middle of next week to see how you are doing. > -- > love, -- Dad > > James Loucks, Ph.D. > Department of English > OSU-Newark > 1179 University Drive > Newark, OH 43055-1797 > FAX: 740-366-5047 > loucks.1@osu.edu > blog: www.jlouckscourses.blogspot.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] > On Behalf Of Aldon Nielsen > Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 10:30 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry > > and just what would the "method" of deconstruction be? and > supposing > that there were a "deconstructionist," how would such a person go > about this representing? > > "There is no one, single deconstruction. Were there only one, were > it homogeneous, it would not be inherently either conservative or > revolutionary, or determinable within the code of such > oppositions. That is precisely what gets on everyone's nerves." > > "'deconstruction is firstly this destabilization on the move in, if > one could speak thus, 'the things themselves'; but it is not > negative." > > "what it does is less to disturb them than to bring into the open > that which is disturbing them and menacing their consistency, their > order, their pertinence. " > > "I do not know . . . to which 'deconstructionists' you are > alluding." > > Derrida in conversation -- LIMITED INC > > At 10:54 PM 2/1/2007, you wrote: > >Sure there's a deconstructionist theory. it's the theory that the > >method of deconstruction produces valuable outcomes when applied > to > texts. > > > >and i thought he meant "representing" deconstruction in the sense > >that LL Cool J can be said to be "representing" Queens. > > > >ALDON L NIELSEN wrote: > >>there isn't really a "deconstructionist" theory -- and > >>it's profoundly odd to think of deconstruction as a theory that a > >>poet would then "represent." > >>Still, if you're really interested in deconstruciton and poetry, a > >>good place to look would be in Derrida's essays on Jabes and Ponge > -- > >>On Thu, 01 Feb 2007 19:21:16 -0800 UB Poetics discussion group > wrote: > >> > >>michel deguy comes to mind. > >>ric carfagna wrote: > >> > >>>Who are the poets who best represent deconstructionist theory? > >> > >><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>We are enslaved by > >>what makes us free -- intolerable > >>paradox at the heart of speech. > >>--Robert Kelly > >>Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ > >>Aldon L. Nielsen > >>Kelly Professor of American Literature > >>The Pennsylvania State University > >>116 Burrowes > >>University Park, PA 16802-6200 > >>(814) 865-0091 > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > "I stand corrected, like a bishop of the obvious." > --Robert Kelly > > > Aldon Lynn Nielsen > George and Barbara Kelly Professor of American Literature > Department of English > The Pennsylvania State University > 112 Burrowes > University Park, PA 16802-6200 > > (814) 865-0091 [office] > > (814) 863-7285 [Fax] > > Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.17.19/663 - Release Date: > 2/1/2007 2:28 PM > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 10:20:51 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas savage Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry In-Reply-To: <170542.16492.qm@web86008.mail.ird.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I've seen a great deal of poetry in the last few years which seems to my limited understanding of the term "deconstruction" to have been the product of deconstruction. This led me to ask a question on my blog (shantideva2.blogspot.com) "Which is more basic to the act of creation, construction or deconstruction?" So far, no one has answered my question. If anyone is interested, I would be interested in seeing some replies. Regards, Tom Savage Barry Schwabsky wrote: I remember that for Paul de Man, Rousseau was the one writer who could not be deconstructed--who was always, so to speak, way out in front of the reader/critic. George Bowering wrote: Well if "poets" can include Kant and Hegel, maybe we should also look at , oh, Bart Starr. gb On 1-Feb-07, at 10:02 PM, Eireene Nealand wrote: > well, and some of the best poets were theorists like Kant. I mean, he > writes using bricks, which look ugly if you don't step back to see the > architecture that he's building up. Whereas Hegel writes more like > Virginia Woolf--because of the way that he constructs sentences, I > mean. > > & maybe that would be a good way to start, looking for a poet who > writes "sentences" with a perforated horizon (i am thinking of > melville here of course.) > >> > >> >> In my opinion, poets do not represent theory. >> > > "Whip" Bowering Shortstop to the Gods --------------------------------- Never miss an email again! Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. Check it out. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 12:43:31 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: FW: Support the growing effort to prevent war with Iran Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >From: "Kevin Martin, Peace Action" >Reply-To: Peaceact@mail.democracyinaction.org >To: davidbchirot@hotmail.com >Subject: Support the growing effort to prevent war with Iran >Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 13:10:40 -0500 (EST) > >Dear David, > >Even as the U.S. Senate debates resolutions on the Iraq war and Bush's >planned troop buildup, resistance to his equally disastrous military >designs upon Iran is also building in Congress. > >As virtually every expert and commentator outside of President Bush's >increasingly small circle of friends has declared, a war with Iran would be >catastrophic - for attempts to end violence in Iraq, for peace in the >Middle East, and for our relationship with the rest of the world. Such an >attack would, like the war in Iraq itself, increase the terrorist threat >against the U.S. rather than decrease it. > >We're keeping maximum pressure on Congress to end the Iraq war, but now we >also need to build momentum to prevent any attack against Iran. Click here >to send an email message to your Representative today. > >http://www.democracyinaction.org/dia/organizationsORG/Peaceact/campaign.jsp?campaign_KEY=6651 > > >Mr. Bush has repeatedly refused to use diplomacy to address Iran's nuclear >program. Now, since his January 10 speech in which he said he would "seek >out and destroy" Iranian networks that he claimed were supporting attacks >on U.S. troops in Iraq, his administration has been clearly and >methodically moving toward military confrontation. > > * a second aircraft carrier group is now on its way to the Persian Gulf, >and air missile defenses are being sent to our allies in the region - >neither of which is necessary or useful to stop the violence in Iraq > >* Bush has repeatedly warned Iran, in virtually every recent speech and >interview, not to "meddle" in Iraq > >* Bush has given an order for U.S. troops to kill Iranian "operatives" >they find in Iraq > >* Claims of Iranian support for Iraqi insurgents are suddenly circulating >in the mainstream media, citing "unnamed" administration sources, of >course, and providing no evidence whatsoever (did the media learn nothing >from Iraq?) > >Congress must stop Bush's march to war with Iran. Reps. Jones and DeFazio >have introduced resolutions to do just that. Send your Representatives an >email today and demand that they support these efforts! > >http://www.democracyinaction.org/dia/organizationsORG/Peaceact/campaign.jsp?campaign_KEY=6651 > >t is hard to imagine that, given the current circumstances, President Bush >would actually start a war with another country in the Middle East. But he >has proven himself again and again to be impervious to facts and reality, >and one cannot argue with the clear steps he has been taking to build >first-strike U.S. forces in the area, to build a "rationale" for an attack >on Iran, and to goad them into a military confrontation with other >provocative acts. > >People in the Middle East, Europe and around the world are horrified by the >prospect of another war. An enlarging military conflict in the Middle East >could easily grow into a world war, or the "clash of civilizations" Bush's >most ardent supporters might actually want. Yet Mr. Bush brushes aside >Iranian attempts at dialogue, and moves forward incessantly to >confrontation. > >This President must be stopped from attacking Iran. H.J. Res. 14, >introduced by Rep. Walter Jones (R - SC 3), and H.Con.Res. 33, introduced >by Rep. Peter DeFazio (D - OR 4) would do just that. Please click here to >send a message to your Representative and let him or her know - in no >uncertain terms - no war with Iran! > >http://www.democracyinaction.org/dia/organizationsORG/Peaceact/campaign.jsp?campaign_KEY=6651 > > >Sincerely, > >Kevin M. Martin >Executive Director >Peace Action > >P.S. It's remarkable to think that our government would actively brush off >Iranian overtures for dialogue, but that's exactly what is happening. >Peace Action intends to tackle this problem with our own citizen diplomatic >mission to Iran - we'll send you more on that in our next e-communication. >In the meantime, though, please tell your Representative to stop the drive >toward war with Iran > >http://www.democracyinaction.org/dia/organizationsORG/Peaceact/campaign.jsp?campaign_KEY=6651 > >and sign our "No War with Iran!" petition > >http://democracyinaction.org/dia/organizationsORG/Peaceact/petition.jsp?petition_KEY=358 > >if you haven't already, and pass it along to your friends! > > > > _________________________________________________________________ From predictions to trailers, check out the MSN Entertainment Guide to the Academy Awards® http://movies.msn.com/movies/oscars2007/?icid=ncoscartagline1 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 14:00:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kevin thurston Subject: Fwd: deconstruction and poetry (on behalf of amy king) In-Reply-To: <20070202185812.96473.qmail@web83311.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline see below for the king's message i would like to add, they (poets) are not as easy to digest ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: amy king Date: Feb 2, 2007 1:58 PM Subject: Fwd: deconstruction and poetry (on behalf of amy king) To: kevin.thurston@gmail.com Forward this to Poetics for me? Yes, just like cereal, except poets think better. Poets also taste better. *Mark Weiss * wrote: Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 11:23:18 -0500 From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU In the sense that the world, or for that matter breakfast cereal, is theory incarnate? At 11:16 AM 2/2/2007, you wrote: >In fact, poets are theory incarnate. > > >George Bowering wrote: > On 1-Feb-07, at 7:00 PM, ric carfagna wrote: > > > Who are the poets who best represent deconstructionist theory? > > > > > >In my opinion, poets do not represent theory. ------------------------------ Have a burning question? Go to Yahoo! Answersand get answers from real people who know. -- new address as of 2/1 299 richmond ave lower buffalo, ny 14222 usofa ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 13:04:33 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Tom W. Lewis" Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry In-Reply-To: <20070202182051.97539.qmail@web31106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I may be "old-fashioned" or just clueless, but I learned deconstruction = as a process of reading / analyzing texts, in my case texts in the = ancient Greek & Latin canon.=20 for instance, one demonstration of deconstructive practice came from my = Latin prof, who discussed Catullus' use of a term in Carmen 2 (passer = =3D both "sparrow" and "term of endearment [in an obscene sense]") -- so = the following passage can be read, simultaneously, on two levels: Passer, deliciae meae puellae, quicum ludere, quem in sinu tenere, cui primum digitum dare adpetenti...=20 [Passer], delight of my girlfriend,=20 who plays with it, holds it in her lap,=20 for whose advances she offers her finger... you can read passer as "sparrow" *and* "cock," and the dissonance -- or = at least two-levelness -- creates a lexical or semantic tension that is = not resolved.=20 as I write this, it strikes me that this is nothing more than an = elaborate pun -- am I off the track re: deconstruction? or is = deconstruction just "havin' fun with texts"? two digressions: Carl-Michael Bellman (18th c.) used to put polyglot dirty jokes in his = songs, so that one (I don't remember which) throws in "ge bj=F6rnen mat" = a propros of nothing else in the piece -- "give the bear food" -- but = when pronounced in Swedish, this phrase actually says something very = rude in Russian.=20 has anyone else in List-land tried reading Finnegans Wake with an Irish = accent? you pick up on a lot of buried information if you try this -- it = dawned on me reading one passage that "damn fairy ann" could be read as = "donc fait rien" -- then the whole page morphed into a kind of Joycean = French argot, before my eyes... and no, I was perfectly sober at the = time. ------ so, ultimately, what I'm asking: isn't deconstruction the recognition of = multiple readings of a given text, where each and all exist = simultaneously and in conjunction with every other reading? in other = words, can one claim it to be similar to negative capability? forgive the intrusion -- have a disorienting and wonder-making weekend.=20 tl On 1-Feb-07, at 10:02 PM, Eireene Nealand wrote: > well, and some of the best poets were theorists like Kant. I mean, he > writes using bricks, which look ugly if you don't step back to see the > architecture that he's building up. Whereas Hegel writes more like > Virginia Woolf--because of the way that he constructs sentences, I > mean. > > & maybe that would be a good way to start, looking for a poet who > writes "sentences" with a perforated horizon (i am thinking of > melville here of course.) > >> > >> >> In my opinion, poets do not represent theory. >> > > "Whip" Bowering Shortstop to the Gods =20 --------------------------------- Never miss an email again! Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. Check it out. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 14:29:14 -0500 Reply-To: az421@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rob McLennan Subject: seeking Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT 1) potential content for upcoming issues of Poetics.ca, including essays, interviews and manifestos. Stephen Brockwell & I, with new managing editor Roland Prevost, are working on the next issue, but are always looking for new content. Check out www.poetics.ca for previous issues, and send submissions to poetics_editors@yahoo.ca 2) also, i may be moons behind, but working up to a bunch of new publications for above/ground press over the next month or so. subscriptions, whether new or renewal, are $40 Canadian (outside Canada, $40 US). more info here: http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/2006/11/aboveground-press-2007-subscriptions.html ; if you already are a subscriber, envelopes have been slowly going out since the middle of december & will continue to... 3) anyone with an office in ottawa that can get me cheap or free photocopies? its been dry the past year or so... rob -- poet/editor/publisher ...STANZAS mag, above/ground press & Chaudiere Books (www.chaudierebooks.com) ...coord.,SPAN-O + ottawa small press fair ...12th poetry coll'n - aubade (Broken Jaw Press) .... c/o 858 Somerset St W, Ottawa ON K1R 6R7 * http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 12:07:50 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eireene Nealand Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Bowering pretty much hit it out of the ballpark with Bart Starr and then later someone else with the cereal as poetry too (yum--i wanna be a shortstop to god). (if you don't see the beauty of Bart Starr as poetry just read the last page of chapter 3--i think it's ch. 3 of De la Grammatologie...or is it the last page of chapter 1? it's within the last 3-- where it all all starts with the violence of plowing a furrow into a field.... that would be the best place to start the big tour). and if you ever want to talk about the beautiful metaphors that math makes, or the justice implied in algebra... i was just about to say when the computer stopped: theory doesn't kill poetry, people do. [if you run into those people who are gutting these beautiful buildings to use them as weapons, as people do, smack 'em for me please because you can be sure they're just taking pieces off the surface...the insides are nice and most philosophers say that poetry is the highest form of thinking after all--that's why i left that field for this one anyhow.] On 2/1/07, George Bowering wrote: > Well if "poets" can include Kant and Hegel, > maybe we should also look at , oh, Bart Starr. > > > gb > > > > On 1-Feb-07, at 10:02 PM, Eireene Nealand wrote: > > > well, and some of the best poets were theorists like Kant. I mean, he > > writes using bricks, which look ugly if you don't step back to see the > > architecture that he's building up. Whereas Hegel writes more like > > Virginia Woolf--because of the way that he constructs sentences, I > > mean. > > > > & maybe that would be a good way to start, looking for a poet who > > writes "sentences" with a perforated horizon (i am thinking of > > melville here of course.) > > > >> > > >> > >> In my opinion, poets do not represent theory. > >> > > > > > "Whip" Bowering > Shortstop to the Gods > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 13:26:01 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hot Whiskey Press Subject: Critical Work on Michael Palmer, Claude Royet-Journoud, Anne-Marie Albiach and/or the Analytic Lyric? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dear BuPo, Can anyone point me towards critical notes/essay concerning the works of Michael Palmer, Claude Royet-Journoud or Anne-Marie Albiach? I'm also looking for a discussion of the analytic lyric if anyone has anything. I've got Norma Cole's *Crosscut Universe,* but not sure where else to find the goods. If anyone knows anything or has written something they'd be willing to send me, it would be greatly appreciated. Working on a thesis examining these figures and the Argentine poet, Arturo Carrera, whom I've been translating. let it rip, Michael Koshkin ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 18:52:57 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dubravka Djuric Subject: Re: dubravka, green integer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit yes, i am happy to have one book of green integer, i admire douglas messerli work, we met more than 10 years ago, which was so important for me, and i translated some of his poems, and i wrote about the anthologies: language poetries, and along with silliman's from american tree, it was back in 1988 the first book i menaged to get in then socialist yugoslavia, and then started my interest in language poetry and poets... from his introduction in that anthology i learned lot of language poetry and poets, and the 'from other side of century' is one of the most important anthologies of us innovative poetry in my library. and i was so sad when few years ago i heard that sun and moon doesnt exist anymore, and i was happy when i got from messerli first book in my library of these beautiful green integer books... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alexander Dickow" To: Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 7:12 AM Subject: dubravka, green integer > Dubravka, > Green Integer is, yes, one of the publishing houses I > most admire. Their catalogue is...droolworthy. Green > Integer makes me *swoon*. Beautiful little books, too. > Everyone should pore carefully over the wonders of > Green Integer Review and its previous incarnation. > And, you might read Douglas Messerli's (sorta the > mastermind behind Green Integer, I believe) comments > and poems on the Argotist Online lately. > Amicalement, > Alex > > > > www.alexdickow.net/blog/ > > les mots! ah quel désert à la fin > merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 21:34:40 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dubravka Djuric Subject: small cultures and innovative poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable thanks to douglas messerli and michael end for their comments! i will try to elaborate what i see as problematic... small culture = usually severly excluds radical poetry, and it is usually that academics = and critics construct narrative of national 'radical' poetry from the = very moderate modernist/postmodernist and in the worst case of = antimodernist poets and their poetry. as one example i will mention the = name of one of the most celebrated poets, who in last 16 years win all = national prices, who i think recently enters serbian academy of science, = milosav tesic (i think that i saw his name listed). he wrote the most = regressive poetry in serbia today. his poetry is one of the most = important in the construction of new postsocialist serbian sociaty, that = is closed society, fundamenatlist and nationalistc in meny ways, = religious, and etnic and for sure antiinnovative. if i appy language = poet's materialistic theory of verse, then it is that on the simbolic = level the kind of poetry that poets wrote is in some relations to the = dominant national project or to, on the contrary to the oppositional = political project. many poets that i find in this list were 'radical' 20 = or 30 or 70s years ago, and today, i.e. after 1991 most of them become = very conservative.=20 when i first in 1988 read and translated first texts by language poets = (bernstein, silliman, hejinian, watten, etc) i said to myself, these = crazy us poets connect politic and ideology with poetry, what it has to = do with eachother... but after 1991, as a literary critic, thanks to my = translations of language poets, i realized that many, most, almost all, = urban belgrade poets from 70 became in poetry opsessed with nation, = religion, and the shift was obvious: their poetry in 70s and 80 were = urban, individualsitc, usually inhereting modernist traditions but never = was too much experimental, but with postsocialism, they started being = involved in (re)construction of national and religious identities, and = ideology of colosed society so instead of individual 'I', urban = landscapes, colloquial urban language, you had 'i' which is actualy 'we' = (the 'i' is important if she/he belongs to the national or religious = community in a fundamental way, and patriarchal 'we'). language became = very archaic, they introduced traditional poetc devices, and instead of = urban poetry, you could read just and only the rural ones (with rare = exceptions).=20 the other thing is the question what is innovative in a local context. i = will start with the quotation of the croatian poet and theoretician from = 70s and 80s who wrote long ago, refering to slovene, croatian and = serbian literatures at that time. he wrote that understanding of = literature in this nations "always involved notion of a political = dimension. so this is how the amalgam that identified language with = national values was created, also forming a literature that served as an = articualtion of national self-importance. in this way, the language = almost automatically become a national value, just like mythology, = political victories and defeats. language could not be entrusted to = someone who mutilated it (srecko kosovel), who expressed national = defeatism, because readings turned on the national political issue above = all else. " i quoted this because the most radical avant-garde poets = from the begining of the 20s century like ljubomir micic and his brother = branko ve poljanski (complicated case, serbs from croatia, who in zagreb = in early 20s established avant-garde magazine zenit, then moved to = belgarde - so they are croatian and serbian avant-garde For the magazine = SEE website of belgrade national library: = http://www.digital.nbs.bg.ac.yu/novine/zenit ), were never, specially in = serbia established as cultural value. according to that, in the end of = 60s and during seventies, in slovenia, croatian and vojvodina (northen = part of serbia) begun the radical practices, most of that formations = were in some relation with conceptual art, similar international art = movements, but at that time just slovenian radical poets were in = slovenia established as cultural value, you all know of tomaz salamun = was one of then. in serbia the most radical poets were even today = excluded from the company of poets who are wothy of any mentioning. they = would be accepted if they change their practice start writing prose, or = start writing more acceptable kind of poetry . and of course, there were poets who were in 70 established as 'radical' = poets, but if i have in mind practice of language poets, their = radicalism would be questioned. but there were practices that were = radical as language poets at that same time. most of those poets were = conceptual artists, but were and still are too radical for the dominant, = as you say middlebrow, culture. and in that culture there is NO place = for innovative, experimental poetry, in its 'purist' way.=20 =20 i find on green integer list names of srecko kosevel (mentioned in the = quotation above, slovenian avant-garde poet from 20s, died very young) = and miroslav krleza (croatia) who lived long and was before first world = avant-garde, between 2 world war was representative of bourgoise high = modernism, and from that time he was against avant-garde, and after = second world he was official play writer and among the most influental = figures in socialist time. vasko popa was the most important serbian = poet of socialist modernism.... these figures are today counterstones, = constitutive figures, of national of literatures but are not the = representatives of radical innovative poetry practices (except srecko = kosovel).=20 in 1923 branko ve poljanski published a book panics under the sun = (panika pod suncem). in his introduction poljanski wrote " bogdan = popovic will go through needles ears before krmeza (coin: krleza who is = pig) will understand me, and his brother micic ednded the foreward with = the words: "our fatherland was the sadest that when we had to be born in = there." when i read them today, i realised that nothing changed. but i think and i hope that it is time for us to see what is and that = was experiment poetry in a small national cultures ... because it is = critical method that is established in us language poetry. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 21:40:01 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anny Ballardini Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry In-Reply-To: <54AA9B41BC35F34EAD02E660901D8A5A0A052B64@TLRUSMNEAGMBX10.ERF.THOMSON.COM> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline I answered this mail and it disappeared (deconstructed to its inexistence) I was saying that I appreciate what you are writing especially your notes o= n J. Joyce. And that in vulgar Italian "uccello" (bird) is a cock. Well, not "sparrow" (passero) but we are close. And for those who have read some Catullus, not the one I was supposed to read at high school, this makes sense. On 2/2/07, Tom W. Lewis wrote: > > I may be "old-fashioned" or just clueless, but I learned deconstruction a= s > a process of reading / analyzing texts, in my case texts in the ancient > Greek & Latin canon. > > for instance, one demonstration of deconstructive practice came from my > Latin prof, who discussed Catullus' use of a term in Carmen 2 (passer =3D= both > "sparrow" and "term of endearment [in an obscene sense]") -- so the > following passage can be read, simultaneously, on two levels: > > Passer, deliciae meae puellae, > quicum ludere, quem in sinu tenere, > cui primum digitum dare adpetenti... > > [Passer], delight of my girlfriend, > who plays with it, holds it in her lap, > for whose advances she offers her finger... > > you can read passer as "sparrow" *and* "cock," and the dissonance -- or a= t > least two-levelness -- creates a lexical or semantic tension that is not > resolved. > > as I write this, it strikes me that this is nothing more than an elaborat= e > pun -- am I off the track re: deconstruction? or is deconstruction just > "havin' fun with texts"? > > two digressions: > > Carl-Michael Bellman (18th c.) used to put polyglot dirty jokes in his > songs, so that one (I don't remember which) throws in "ge bj=F6rnen mat" = a > propros of nothing else in the piece -- "give the bear food" -- but when > pronounced in Swedish, this phrase actually says something very rude in > Russian. > > has anyone else in List-land tried reading Finnegans Wake with an Irish > accent? you pick up on a lot of buried information if you try this -- it > dawned on me reading one passage that "damn fairy ann" could be read as > "donc fait rien" -- then the whole page morphed into a kind of Joycean > French argot, before my eyes... and no, I was perfectly sober at the time= . > > ------ > > so, ultimately, what I'm asking: isn't deconstruction the recognition of > multiple readings of a given text, where each and all exist simultaneousl= y > and in conjunction with every other reading? in other words, can one clai= m > it to be similar to negative capability? > > forgive the intrusion -- have a disorienting and wonder-making weekend. > > tl > > > > > > On 1-Feb-07, at 10:02 PM, Eireene Nealand wrote: > > > well, and some of the best poets were theorists like Kant. I mean, he > > writes using bricks, which look ugly if you don't step back to see the > > architecture that he's building up. Whereas Hegel writes more like > > Virginia Woolf--because of the way that he constructs sentences, I > > mean. > > > > & maybe that would be a good way to start, looking for a poet who > > writes "sentences" with a perforated horizon (i am thinking of > > melville here of course.) > > > >> > > >> > >> In my opinion, poets do not represent theory. > >> > > > > > "Whip" Bowering > Shortstop to the Gods > > > > --------------------------------- > Never miss an email again! > Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. Check it out. > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 19:11:56 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dodie Bellamy Subject: Orgasm Zine reading and reception Comments: To: ampersand@yahoogroups.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" You are cordially invited to a reading and reception for the Orgasm Zine, written by Dodie Bellamy's prose workshop and designed by Rebecca Miller. Friday, February 9, 8 p.m. Free Dog Eared Books 900 Valencia St. (@ 20th) San Francisco, CA 94110 (415) 282-1901 Zines will be for sale. Contributors: Dodie Bellamy David Christensen Drew Cushing Judith Jordan Kevin Killian Anne McGuire Rebecca Miller Michael Nicoloff Laura Wasserman Emily Wilson ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 02:32:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Ciccariello Subject: Fox, dreaming of the space between human and beast MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Fox, dreaming of the space between human and beast "Humans and beasts are different species, but foxes are between humans and beasts. The dead and the living walk different roads, but foxes are between the dead and the living. Transcendents and monsters travel different paths, but foxes are between transcendents and monsters. Therefore one could say to meet a fox is strange; one could also say it is ordinary." - Ji Yun, 1789, in *Notebook from the Thatched Cottage of Close Scrutiny* * * ** -- Peter Ciccariello Image - http://invisiblenotes.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 08:42:12 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: 50 ANIVERSARIO DE LA POESIA CONCRETA Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed 50 ANIVERSARIO DE LA POESIA CONCRETA Disfrute de este espacio en la website BOEK861 de C=E9sar Reglero, =20 dedicado al homenaje de los 50 a=F1os de la Poes=EDa Concreta. http://www.boek861.com/stutgart/ 50 ANNIVERSARY OF CONCRETE POETRY Enjoy this space in Cesar Reglero=B4s website BOEK861, dedicated to =20 Homage 50 Years of Concrete Poetry. http://boek861.com/stutgart/index_en.htm PARTICIPANTES - PARTICIPANTS Giovanni Fontana, Adam Fong, Adolf, Agust=EDn Calvo Gal=E1n, Alejandro =20= Thornton, Alkak Luiz dos Santos y Gilbertto Prado, Ana Glafira, =20 Anamar=EDa Briede, Angela Ib=E1=F1ez, Antonella Prota Giurleo, Antoni =20= Albalat, Antonio C=E1res, Antonio Monterroso, Antonio Orihuela, Baldo =20= Ramos, Beatriz San Mill=E1n, Birger Jesch, Brian Whitener, Carol Starr, =20= Caterina Davinio, Cecil Touchon, Cesar Reglero, Christian Hasucha, =20 Cirus Console, Claudia del Rio, Claudio Grandinetti, Clemente Pad=EDn, =20= Constan=E7a Lucas, Costis, Dan Buck, David Daniels, Demosthene =20 Agrafiotis, Denis Charmot, Emerenciano, Eugenia Serafini, Fausto =20 Grossi, Feliciano Mira, Francesc Xavier For=E9s, Franco Focardi, =20 Franklin Valverde, G. J. de Rook, Geof Huth, Gerardo Podhajny, =20 Graciela Guti=E9rrez Marx, Gregory Vincent St Thomasino, Gunther Ruch, =20= Gustavo Fern=E1ndez Alonso, Gustavo Vega, Henning Mittendorf, Irving =20 Weiss, Isabel Jover, Ivan Etienne, J. M. Calleja, Jeanete EKohler, =20 Joaquim Branco, John Bennett, Jorge Ismael Rodr=EDguez, Jos=E9 Blanco, =20= Josep Sou, Julien Blaine, Jurgen O.Olbrich, Keiichi Nakamura, Kostas =20 Hrisos, Leticia Alonso Hern=E1ndez, Litsa Spathi, Lois Gil Magari=F1os, =20= Lorena Cordero, Luc Fierens, Manuel A. Sousa, Mara Caruso, Mar=EDa Jos=E9 = =20 Ares Mondino, Mark Sutherland, Michael Morris, Miekal And, Miguel =20 Jim=E9nez Zen=F3n, Monica Vallejo, Neusa Cauduro, Nicola Frangione, = Nikos =20 Vassilakis, Norberto Jos=E9 Mart=EDnez, P.Thoma, Patricia Robledo, =20 Patricia Sibar, Paul de Vree, Paul Tiilil=E4, Rainer Stolz, Reed =20 Altemus, Regina Vater, Roberto Scala, Rocia Alegre, Rod Summers, =20 Ruediger Axel Westphal, Ruud Janssen, Sergio Monteiro, Shutaro Mukai, =20= Silvia Lisa, Susana Romano, Tamara Wyndham, Thierry Tiliier, Tom =20 Gaze, Vaclav Havel, Virginia Oviedo Rodr=EDguez y Vittore Baroni. BOEK861 cesar@boek861.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 15:29:58 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dubravka Djuric Subject: Re: poets in small cultures and outside gaze MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit thank you murat for this comment, when i read it, it occured to me the important question WHO IN ONE LOCAL CONTEXT HAS A POWER TO DEFINE WHAT IS INNOVATIVE AND EXPERIMENTAL. and as far as i remember, many critic here wrote about the poet i mentioned as original and innovative. the other thing regarding vasko popa that occured to me is: how one 'small' culture reprezents itself for itself, and how it represents itself for other cultures. then, who is transisser into other culture, how he or she represents poetry and context of the poet re want to represent, and what is transmissor's poetical/political status in his or her culture, and how poets in that culture will accept the other, the work of the poet who through the translation enters their own cultural, and political and poetica context. what purpose this work will seve in that culture where it is introduced. being connected for the start with radical artistic context, popa was author who was not importatnt at all. few years ago i was kindly invited by the fellow poet to participate in a round table on his work, and for the first time i read him, at list some major works, and what i find, that his poetry is dealing with all metanarratives of socialist former yu society... inscribing himself into the canon of great and important national poets.... and he was really important poet in introducing socialist modernism in serbia, after period of socialist realism, but that kind of poetry is not important for me. there is need to constract different canons, here too! as a long time translator of us poetry, i started in 1984 translating black mountain poets, first of all robert duncan and denise leverotv, and when i discovered in 1988 language poets, i constantly transltae this kind of poetry, and i could now conceptualize it, that i fill the gap in my own culture, the kind of work i would like to have in my culture and it serve me to make my own poetical context. another exhamples. in 1986 working within theoretical/artist community for space investigation i decided to write about modern and postmodern dance. in usa and german library i find many books on isadora duncan, ruth st denis, mary wigman, etc. but at the begining of 1990s in belgrade used bookshops my husband misko suvakovic and i found the books by maga magazinovic, who was pupil of rudolf laban, and other improtant dance and theater persons from the beginning of 20 century. and i havent heard of her in my own culture. recenlty, after i finished a huge work on usa experimental women poets, i start again reading micic, poljanski and few other poets, and understand that i have to search for paund, marinetti, kruchonik, and i have in my own culture the best exhamples from the same or little later period.... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Murat Nemet-Nejat" To: Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 5:52 PM Subject: Re: poets in small cultures and outside gaze > mIEKAL, > > The avant-garde in a country like Serbia, or others places, may work > differently, having other points of reference. Is the avant-garde more a > matter of spirit, rather than associated with a specific style? Is it a > style or an idea? > > The virtual space gives us a chance to discuss these points without all of > us being around a coffee house table though that would be even better. > > Ciao, > > Murat > > On 2/2/07, mIEKAL aND wrote: > > > > Dubravka: > > > > This is a fascinating comment & something that I suspected also. It > > would be interesting to here Douglas Messerli's comments on this. I'm > > also hoping you could give a few examples of these new experimental > > Serbian poets & any translations that might be available online. > > Certainly with the advent of the web, it must be much easier for un > > (der)represented to establish a virtual presence, which is at least a > > beginning to achieving a bit of recognition. Or if nothing else > > propose to one of these monstrous poetry webzines like Jacket or Big > > Bridge to put together a collection of the poets you think are > > beneath the radar. > > > > & for myself I would be also interested to know if there is a > > historical Serbian avant garde of which we in the west know nothing... > > > > ~mIEKAL > > > > > > On Feb 1, 2007, at 3:01 PM, Dubravka Djuric wrote: > > > > > dear listmemebers, > > > > > > it has been long time since i wrote something for this list. now, i > > > would like to comment the site of green integer. surfing, i came > > > upon it, and was really amaizing to see so much poets all arround > > > the world, including the former yugoslav poets! which i find really > > > great! i was specially interestied in the poets from serbia, i am > > > from serbia, and i was so sad to see that some right wing oriented > > > poets are on the list... and now i think about how in small > > > cultures such as serbia, you cannot have a second scene, because we > > > are all 'one big family', right and left, and every poet who ever > > > wrote experimental poetry is erased, acctually could not be > > > establish as a poet of any value, it doesnt fit into the picture > > > of great national poetry, and what you call moderate modernisam and > > > postmodernism, or what you call(ed) mainstream poets just that kind > > > of poetry do exist. other kind of poets cannot survive, they are > > > out of sight, out of attention of dominant culture, and of course, > > > they could never be in attention of outside gaze, outside > > > attention. i find it very very sad... i dont know how are in other > > > cultures outside usa..... > > > > > > > The covers of this book are too far apart. -- Ambrose Bierce > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 14:54:43 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ian Randall Wilson Subject: Chapbooks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Are chapbooks just limited to poetry? Cervena Barva, a small press in Boston, is trying experiments with "chapbooks" in fiction, too. They just published one of mine called Out of the Arcadian Ghetto. _http://www.cervenabarvapress.com/_ (http://www.cervenabarvapress.com/) Ian Wilson ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 12:54:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mairead Byrne Subject: SOS POETRY Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Let a free book steal YOUR time: My book SOS POETRY has just been published by UbuWeb http://ubu.com as an /ubu Edition http://ubu.com/ubu Mairead Mair=E9ad Byrne Associate Professor of English Rhode Island School of Design 2 College Street Providence, RI 02903 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 20:00:03 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ann Bogle Subject: Re: phobia... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/31/2007 1:18:12 P.M. Central Standard Time, frazerv@BELLSOUTH.NET writes: My symptoms aren't things I can hide. I can't "pass" for non-Tourettic. This is the post I wanted to reply to and waited. Now Poetics emails seem to have dried up and are bypassing me: This happened in Sept., too, but then I let it go. Somehow I started receiving Poetics mail again in January. Last summer I wrote an email every 3 weeks or so that must have had too little to do with Poetics, which I take to mean international politics via poetry, or poetry via int'l politics, and had to do with North American non-poets who were in a chronic state of treating disabling conditions or in a disabling state of treating chronic conditions ... of how internalized stigma caused them to react against one another and to become harmful to their fellow human beings; -- it was worse than *thoughts* about our situation that led to the harm: There were housing loss and other alarming hazards. It was watching people become homeless before our eyes. It was these people's own hardball antagonism toward not being *normal.* *Phobia,* if you can get people to go in for it, is treated as a psychological condition for which there is *therapy.* Education serves that purpose as well. *Disabled* people comprise 20% of the U.S. population and *would* represent the largest minority in the U.S. if they chose to associate, to be inclusive along the lines of type of *disability.* Mainly, I think the word *disability* is misleading because it says nothing for *ability,* and most of the *disabled* people I have met are more *able* than not. Depressives are not viewed as in the *innocent* group, but are more likely in the *bad guys* group. 20% of depressives are suicidal; the rest are not. I did not have illnesses as a child and had a strong constitution. I grew up feminist, more than my mother, and at an early age, earlier than the norm: at 12, I read Ms. Magazine. So I have those memories to draw on and try to recapture. For years, I was adequately *private* and stable following dx. The passing of time, not living as if I were in a race, and my enthusiasm for holistic treatment for bipolar -- as if that were my *job* -- caused a loss in academic peer structure and the chance for employment. AMB ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 07:36:34 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charlie Rossiter Subject: Haiku Death Match MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A couple of points on haiku. Everything Michael Dylan Welch said about haiku is accurate. He's been writing in the genre a long time. Sato is a real authority on haiku and no, he didn't make it up about the 1-line, 3-line thing. Issues around haiku are further confounded by teachers who like the seventeen syllable rule because it gives them something to teach that's far simpler than teaching about ‘capturing the moment' or whatever you'd like to call the ‘spirit' of haiku. There's also the issue of well-known English language poets who put out books of haiku in mid-career which unfortunately usually contain novice-level haiku because they are, unfortunately, novices at haiku. People figure that if a well-known poet writes a three-line sentence and calls it haiku it must be haiku. There's more, of course but..... if you really want to know about haiku in English simply get Lee Gurga's excellent book, "Haiku: A Poet's Guide," Modern Haiku Press, Box 68 Lincoln IL, 62656, USA ($20). That's the address in the book, but it may have changed. I'm sure Lee won't mind me giving you his email as he's VERY dedicated to haiku. He's a past editor of Haiku, which is the Poetry of the U.S. haiku world, also past-pres of Haiku Society of America. gurga@ccaonline.com Charlie -- "Poetry is good for you and so is the blues." Charlie said that. www.poetrypoetry.com where you hear poems read by poets who wrote them www.myspace.com/avantretro (hear avantretro poems) www.myspace.com/whiskeybucketbluesreview hear Charlie & Henry sing the blues www.myspace.com/jackthe71special hear Jack's original blues, blues rock & roots ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 21:29:38 -0800 Reply-To: editor@pavementsaw.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 1 Feb 2007 to 2 Feb 2007 (#2007-34) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit George-- Did Bart Starr do a Travis Watkins? You lost me on that reference. Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus, OH 43206 http://pavementsaw.org ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 03:07:43 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Dylan Welch Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sure, one can use any formal restraint as a poetic game, as a challenge of sorts. But as challenges go, in haiku, the syllabic challenge (whatever pattern you might choose) is mighty superficial. Indeed, in my years of teaching haiku, I've seen that it's the easiest thing in the world for students of nearly all grade levels to count their pretty little syllables. Why brag about pulling on your underwear all by yourself when your hair is on fire? It's a trivial "discipline." And these same haiku, while hitting that trivial target -- again, an incorrect target in English -- are widely missing the more important targets. And most often, these proud 5-7-5ers are completely oblivious to those other targets -- ones that are actually more important. Why bother with arbirary constraints for haiku when there are far more serious, literary, challenging, and effective constraints that you miss in the process of focusing on 5-7-5?!? It can be fun to write cinquains or iambic pentameter, or the recent "Fib" form (counting syllables in subsequent lines to match the Fibonacci sequence). But when it comes to haiku, writing 5-7-5 syllables in English isn't the same as following the prescribed syllables of cinquains or pentameter or Fibs. That's because following 5-7-5 assumes a "correctness" for that pattern in English, which isn't accurate when it's really a borrowed form. Yes, sonnets are borrowed from Italian to English, but at least that's the same alphabet, so it's not fraught with the problems of translating from Japanese to English. It's folly to translate the number (5-7-5) without thinking more deeply about what is being counted. Yet that is precisely what has happened that lead to the false conception of haiku being 5-7-5 syllables in English. Quite simply, when we apply that pattern to English syllables, we miss the boat. It's simplistic and naive. A person can do whatever they like and call it haiku (Lord knows that's happened plenty enough). If you're having fun, knock yourself out. But if you're writing 5-7-5 haiku, it's best to be aware of how you're writing a poem that's markedly longer than what is expressed in a Japanese haiku (not all of which are 5-7-5, by the way). It's best to be aware that you're writing in a pattern that, for good reason, pretty much ALL of the leading haiku poets writing in English do not follow. It's best to be aware that writing 5-7-5 frequently creates artificial syntax and awkward line breaks purely for an unnecessary constraint while more important strategies (also constraints) are completely missed. Indeed, most 5-7-5 haiku writers tend to be completely unaware of the other strategies necessary for traditional haiku, though perhaps that's a separate problem, although it's frequently caused by a belief that 5-7-5 is all there is to it. In any event, if one aims at seasonality and a two-part juxtapositional structure, and employs objective sensory imagery, you can let the rest of form take care of itself (organically). But of course, there's more to it than that -- writing in the present tense, no titles, no rhyme, seldom any similes or metaphors, employing fragments rather than full sentences, employing allusion, and more. And perhaps the most important aspect of all -- implication. It's very hard to do well, to hint at something that the reader can figure out on his own, making a leap of understanding that's made possible because of your restraint as a poet, because you deliberately left something out. As I like to emphasize in haiku workshops, don't write about your emotion, write about what caused your emotion. Then, if you do it right, the reader can feel what you felt without your having to say so. But of course all of this is missed by those who think haiku is only a 5-7-5 syllable-counting poetry trick. Some "challenge." As I say in the title of one of my haiku lectures: "Haiku: It's Bigger Than You Think." Yet of course, it's also smaller than most English speakers think, too. Michael P.S. Nearly every serious haiku poet I know has had a progression in their haiku -- and I'm talking about many hundreds of leading haiku poets who I pay attention to, perhaps even thousands. They nearly all started out writing 5-7-5, as did I. And then they progressed to learning the more important aspects of the genre (and haiku is best thought of as a genre of poetry, of which "form" is just one aspect). At this point, nearly all of them stop writing in the 5-7-5 pattern. The few exceptions to this progression include those who went straight to avoiding 5-7-5 in the first place. But there are clear reasons for this progression. It's not that 5-7-5 is "abandoned." Rather, it is apprehended as something that was inappropriate in the first place, and causes many problems in English. Higher targets are sought -- ones, in fact, that turn out to be far more challenging and require far more discipline. If 5-7-5 in English serves any useful purpose, it is purely as the first stepping-stone on a long path. But, alas, too many people, even otherwise accomplished poets, stop at just that first stepping stone with their haiku. In a message dated 02-Feb-07 9:01:40 PM Pacific Standard Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU writes: Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 10:41:59 -0600 From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match While I think it's a good idea to understand that 5-7-5 is simply a convenience of sorts, even something of a mistranslation (even something of a cultural oversight), I feel about this pretty much the way I feel about bending any formal rule. I.e., it's fun to use 5-7-5 as an arbitrary constraint in composing haiku, just as it's fun to use 14 lines as an arbitrary constraint in composing sonnets. (Which latter might not result in 14 lines, ysee, but that won't keep me from calling it a sonnet.) Granted, correcting the misconception is one thing. But having fun with same is quite another, which, to me, is one reason I write poetry. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 05:24:04 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Dickow Subject: rousseau and de man In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Barry wrote: "I remember that for Paul de Man, Rousseau was the one writer who could not be deconstructed--who was always, so to speak, way out in front of the reader/critic." Where does de Man say this? I admit I'm surprised, since he "deconstructs" the Profession de foi du vicaire savoyard (Emile) in a very smart paper (one of the best on the Profession de foi). Rousseau -- see the Grammatologie -- was a cornerstone of "deconstructionist" reading practices from the beginnings of poststructuralism. Far from being "impossible to deconstruct", if you ask me! Not to mention: anyone who has read Rousseau carefully knows that his texts are veritable conundrums, vertiginous, infinitely tricky and unstable. "Impossible to deconstruct"? Rousseau's a master of slippery vocabulary (related terms with unstable boundaries, reinvented familiar words or notions...), and he can get you to call black orange in under five minutes. So, I'd love to know where (and how, why, etc) de Man makes this claim. Amicalement, Alex www.alexdickow.net/blog/ les mots! ah quel désert à la fin merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 01:34:52 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: dubravka, green integer In-Reply-To: <20070202061209.24601.qmail@web35515.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I agree with that completely. A quick scan of my bookshelf reveals probably more green integer titles than from any other poetry press. A few of my faves: Arcanum 17, Andre Breton tender buttons (i think there's another edition in print, but i also seem to recall it's small and printed on cheap paper) lorca's suites i just checked the site, and i see that there's a planned release of Berkeley's Three Dialogues which will no doubt be very cool and i intend to buy quickly. The thing i love about green integer is that they're a publisher you can trust. i often am browsing in a bookstore and will see something by someone i haven't heard of and buy it, and as a result discover someone amazing. that's actually where my introduction to larry eigner came from, and I'm very much indebted to messerli for publishing "readiness/enough/depends/on" for that reason. Alexander Dickow wrote: > Dubravka, > Green Integer is, yes, one of the publishing houses I > most admire. Their catalogue is...droolworthy. Green > Integer makes me *swoon*. Beautiful little books, too. > Everyone should pore carefully over the wonders of > Green Integer Review and its previous incarnation. > And, you might read Douglas Messerli's (sorta the > mastermind behind Green Integer, I believe) comments > and poems on the Argotist Online lately. > Amicalement, > Alex > > > > www.alexdickow.net/blog/ > > les mots! ah quel désert à la fin > merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 15:43:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry In-Reply-To: <578647560702021207l1b89d0a5le9d4b4a0870f1d92@mail.gmail.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit speaking of math metaphors, my mother, who died a few year ago, wrote a 1000-p. book on math as an art form which remains unpublished. I am sending chapters to a few math friends of hers but am interested in finding out if anyone out there knows enough high-level math--set theory esp & can read complex equations--to edit it, cut it in half. will contact MIT Press too. Thanks. Ruth L. On 2/2/07 3:07 PM, "Eireene Nealand" wrote: > Bowering pretty much hit it out of the ballpark with Bart Starr > > and then later someone else with the cereal as poetry too (yum--i > wanna be a shortstop to god). > > (if you don't see the beauty of Bart Starr as poetry just read the > last page of chapter 3--i think it's ch. 3 of De la > Grammatologie...or is it the last page of chapter 1? it's within the > last 3-- > > where > > it all all starts with the violence of plowing a furrow into a field.... > > that would be the best place to start the big tour). > > and if you ever want to talk about the beautiful metaphors that math > makes, or the justice implied in algebra... > > i was just about to say when the computer stopped: > > theory doesn't kill poetry, people do. > > [if you run into those people who are gutting these beautiful > buildings to use them as weapons, as people do, smack 'em for me > please because you can be sure they're just taking pieces off the > surface...the insides are nice and most philosophers say that poetry > is the highest form of thinking after all--that's why i left that > field for this one anyhow.] > > On 2/1/07, George Bowering wrote: >> Well if "poets" can include Kant and Hegel, >> maybe we should also look at , oh, Bart Starr. >> >> >> gb >> >> >> >> On 1-Feb-07, at 10:02 PM, Eireene Nealand wrote: >> >>> well, and some of the best poets were theorists like Kant. I mean, he >>> writes using bricks, which look ugly if you don't step back to see the >>> architecture that he's building up. Whereas Hegel writes more like >>> Virginia Woolf--because of the way that he constructs sentences, I >>> mean. >>> >>> & maybe that would be a good way to start, looking for a poet who >>> writes "sentences" with a perforated horizon (i am thinking of >>> melville here of course.) >>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> In my opinion, poets do not represent theory. >>>> >>> >>> >> "Whip" Bowering >> Shortstop to the Gods >> ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 03:22:08 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Dylan Welch Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Haiku in Japanese is nearly always written and published in a single verticle line (there are no breaks between the parts of 5, 7, and 5 mora). So yes, the three-line form is a Western invention, and Hiroaki Sato (a friend of mine, and whose translations I've also published in my journal Tundra) advocates that haiku in English should be a single horizontal line to be equivalent to Japanese. That's certainly a choice, and many people do write excellent one-line haiku in English (some of mine are in one line). However, the argument is also made that a single horizontal line doesn't necessarily "look" like poetry, whereas the lineations of three lines does. So that's another choice, and the three lines do echo the three parts of the Japanese haiku (though actually, there is typically the equivalent of enjambment over two of the three parts in most Japanese haiku, the other part being set off with a kireji, or cutting word). I would assert that the three-line convention for English-language haiku is a perfectly acceptable one, though I also write haiku in one line, as well as the occasional "concrete" or visual haiku, and feel no hesitation to use more than three lines if the poem seriously warrants it. There are other factors that are more important. Hiroaki Sato's *From the Country of Eight Islands* was cotranslated with Burton Watson. Watson translated some of the haiku therein, as I recall, and they appear in three lines. Sato's haiku translations (in other books) are occasionally in three lines, though typically he uses a single line. He also avoids all punctuation, which can be confusing but also create interesting ambiguities, so that again is another choice. Michael In a message dated 02-Feb-07 9:01:40 PM Pacific Standard Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU writes: Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 12:00:39 -0500 From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match Hiroaki Sato, who translated I think all the poems in his Japanese anthology (Literature of Eight Islands?), said that a haiku is written in a single line and the division into three lines (5-7-5) was a western invention. He even had done a series of haiku translations in single lines, very interesting ones since they undercut exactly that split between objective concrete (nature) and concluding inspiration. Of course, I do not know how much of this Hiro made up. Ciao, Murat ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 15:12:10 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dubravka Djuric Subject: Re: poets in small cultures and outside gaze MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIEKAL, I NOTICED THAT I COMPLETELY MISSPELL YOUR NAME, I DEEPLY APOLOGIZE FOR THAT! ----- Original Message ----- From: "mIEKAL aND" To: Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 4:08 PM Subject: Re: poets in small cultures and outside gaze > Dubravka: > > This is a fascinating comment & something that I suspected also. It > would be interesting to here Douglas Messerli's comments on this. I'm > also hoping you could give a few examples of these new experimental > Serbian poets & any translations that might be available online. > Certainly with the advent of the web, it must be much easier for un > (der)represented to establish a virtual presence, which is at least a > beginning to achieving a bit of recognition. Or if nothing else > propose to one of these monstrous poetry webzines like Jacket or Big > Bridge to put together a collection of the poets you think are > beneath the radar. > > & for myself I would be also interested to know if there is a > historical Serbian avant garde of which we in the west know nothing... > > ~mIEKAL > > > On Feb 1, 2007, at 3:01 PM, Dubravka Djuric wrote: > > > dear listmemebers, > > > > it has been long time since i wrote something for this list. now, i > > would like to comment the site of green integer. surfing, i came > > upon it, and was really amaizing to see so much poets all arround > > the world, including the former yugoslav poets! which i find really > > great! i was specially interestied in the poets from serbia, i am > > from serbia, and i was so sad to see that some right wing oriented > > poets are on the list... and now i think about how in small > > cultures such as serbia, you cannot have a second scene, because we > > are all 'one big family', right and left, and every poet who ever > > wrote experimental poetry is erased, acctually could not be > > establish as a poet of any value, it doesnt fit into the picture > > of great national poetry, and what you call moderate modernisam and > > postmodernism, or what you call(ed) mainstream poets just that kind > > of poetry do exist. other kind of poets cannot survive, they are > > out of sight, out of attention of dominant culture, and of course, > > they could never be in attention of outside gaze, outside > > attention. i find it very very sad... i dont know how are in other > > cultures outside usa..... > > > > The covers of this book are too far apart. -- Ambrose Bierce ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 22:51:59 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: That is where the US is - In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70702021240j10d0de9ch89dac2f8e01d24f5@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit nothing like eating what's called for butter, that what don't melt in bowl-ing water. agj --- ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 22:52:04 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: That is where the US is - In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70702021240j10d0de9ch89dac2f8e01d24f5@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit nothing like eating what's called for butter, that what don't melt in bowl-ing water. agj --- ____________________________________________________________________________________ No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 18:16:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Climate report summary (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed http://www.ipcc.ch/SPM2feb07.pdf - for the 21 page summary text; if anyone knows where to get the full 1200 page document, please post URL, thanks, Alan ======================================================================= Work on YouTube, blog at http://nikuko.blogspot.com . Tel 718-813-3285. Webpage directory http://www.asondheim.org . Email: sondheim@panix.com. http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim for theory; also check WVU Zwiki, Google for recent. Write for info on books, cds, performance, dvds, etc. ============================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 23:29:42 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Crockett Subject: For poetry \ arts \ cultural web page development MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What you get * 1 year of domain registration of your choice (.com, .net, .org., etc.) * 3096 MB of storage * up to 10 email accounts at your own domain * 20,000 MB of bandwidth per month features * unlimited MySQL databases * php4 / php5 support * Jabber chat server * POP / SMTP / IMAP email * Microsoft FrontPage extensions (available) * Real Audio & Video (http streaming) * QuickTime streaming other features * WordPress * phpBB * Advanced Poll * ZenCart * MediaWiki * Joomla * Gallery * WebCalendar Everything you could ask for, and more. For just $15 per year. (To register a domain at my hosting service costs $10, then the five dollars will be considered a gratuity.) (Account access is basic ftp or advanced ssh \ ssh2, but no shell (advanced linux command line) access.) address to: jesse -at listenlight -dot net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 02:23:24 -0500 Reply-To: dbuuck@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Buuck Subject: on the analytic lyric Comments: cc: hotwhiskeypress@GMAIL.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cf palmer's code of signals, archived at jerrold shiroma's duration site: http://www.durationpress.com/archives/code/codeofsignals.pdf DB ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 00:11:20 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andy Gricevich Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I think poets are usually ahead of the game. Why do you think most theorists write about exclusively old literature (the canon)? "Constructivism" seems a better word for the poets who often get "accused" of instantiating Derrida's theories... but I think most poets, including those who love a lot of theory (of which I'm one), work their own poetics out in practice (which can include dialogues--often playful--with pre-existing theory). I think "we" (I don't include myself) are often too eager, when we encounter strange poetry, to "justify" its strangeness by explaining it as the manifestation of a theory, rather than looking at what the text is and does, and then thinking about what theory might be possible as a result of that. As if poetry had to be justified. That's not meant as a joke about margins. I like Derrida, but a lot of his thought is decades (at least) behind art. Jameson's analysis of Perelman misses out on the critical terms Perelman's writing makes possible. I love Bernstein, but his earlier theory (which I also love) gets quoted too much by critics in the process of trying to explain (away?) his poetry, which exceeds that theory in its breathtaking variety, and is irreducible to the latter. Examples. --------------------------------- No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 00:06:58 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cralan kelder Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070202101716.02418a00@psu.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit some poets are practitioners of Dcvism in the sense that they challenge the idea that lots and lots of words are needed to say something. On 2/2/07 4:30 PM, "Aldon Nielsen" wrote: > and just what would the "method" of deconstruction be? and supposing > that there were a "deconstructionist," how would such a person go > about this representing? > > "There is no one, single deconstruction. Were there only one, were > it homogeneous, it would not be inherently either conservative or > revolutionary, or determinable within the code of such > oppositions. That is precisely what gets on everyone's nerves." > > "'deconstruction is firstly this destabilization on the move in, if > one could speak thus, 'the things themselves'; but it is not negative." > > "what it does is less to disturb them than to bring into the open > that which is disturbing them and menacing their consistency, their > order, their pertinence. " > > "I do not know . . . to which 'deconstructionists' you are alluding." > > Derrida in conversation -- LIMITED INC > > At 10:54 PM 2/1/2007, you wrote: >> >Sure there's a deconstructionist theory. it's the theory that the >> >method of deconstruction produces valuable outcomes when applied to texts. >> > >> >and i thought he meant "representing" deconstruction in the sense >> >that LL Cool J can be said to be "representing" Queens. >> > >> >ALDON L NIELSEN wrote: >>> >>there isn't really a "deconstructionist" theory -- and >>> >>it's profoundly odd to think of deconstruction as a theory that a >>> >>poet would then "represent." >>> >>Still, if you're really interested in deconstruciton and poetry, a >>> >>good place to look would be in Derrida's essays on Jabes and Ponge -- >>> >>On Thu, 01 Feb 2007 19:21:16 -0800 UB Poetics discussion group wrote: >>> >> >>> >>michel deguy comes to mind. >>> >>ric carfagna wrote: >>> >> >>>> >>>Who are the poets who best represent deconstructionist theory? >>> >> >>> >><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>We are enslaved by >>> >>what makes us free -- intolerable >>> >>paradox at the heart of speech. >>> >>--Robert Kelly >>> >>Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ >>> >>Aldon L. Nielsen >>> >>Kelly Professor of American Literature >>> >>The Pennsylvania State University >>> >>116 Burrowes >>> >>University Park, PA 16802-6200 >>> >>(814) 865-0091 > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > "I stand corrected, like a bishop of the obvious." > --Robert Kelly > > > Aldon Lynn Nielsen > George and Barbara Kelly Professor of American Literature > Department of English > The Pennsylvania State University > 112 Burrowes > University Park, PA 16802-6200 > > (814) 865-0091 [office] > > (814) 863-7285 [Fax] > > Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 20:23:16 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: small cultures and innovative poetry In-Reply-To: <019801c74709$caf39fb0$2a00f0d5@b922003> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dubravka, Thanks for your fascinating post. Also, the tone of it is appealing: it isn't calling for anybody's head on a platter; it is articulate and progressive, not bitter or vengeful. You do not play the nationalistic trumpet but, instead, question the political and poetical value of aggressive nationalism. You speak for the value of experimental poetry that introduces critical methods into poetry. That is important in poetry and in contemporary society. Poetry needs to be able to deal with situations such as http://alternet.org/blogs/peek/47507 . Intensest engagement with language, these days, is not necessarily in a poemy poem on a page. It can happen off the page and even off the art map. Poetry needs to be able to go there. ja http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 01:23:54 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20070202101716.02418a00@psu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i probably should have said methods, but that's splitting hairs. too many useless idiots have made careers out of the kind of obtuse nonsense you quote from Jacque D below. the method(s) of deconstruction is/are straightforward and more or less uninteresting. put simply, to deconstruct, one must 1.) pick a text 2.) identify one or more implications of the text 3.) generate a number of bad puns using techniques usually drawn from etymology, linguistics, and semiotics 4.) use those puns as support for a thesis that runs counter to or in some way subverts the implications you have identified in the text. It's really not all that complex, and there's more than one way to flay that particular feline, and as a result I'm often quite surprised that there's so much mystique surrounding the idea. Even if it were a valid way to go about constructing an argument, i don't know that it's actually useful in saying anything about the original text or its author. Moreover, criticism employing such methods is usually so badly written (see, eg, Dissemination, the rhetoric of romanticism, or laugh of the medusa) that it's often impossible to give it the value of simply being fun to read, which, for example, one can find in similarly goofy ideas propagated by other schools of thought like the medieval scholastics, the ancient neo-platonists, or some of derrida's more entertaining, non-deconstructionist peers like Gilles Deleuze or ones who are simply better philosophers like Foucault or Zizek who are good reads for the quality of argument even though they're wrong about almost everything. Aldon Nielsen wrote: > and just what would the "method" of deconstruction be? and supposing > that there were a "deconstructionist," how would such a person go about > this representing? > > "There is no one, single deconstruction. Were there only one, were it > homogeneous, it would not be inherently either conservative or > revolutionary, or determinable within the code of such oppositions. > That is precisely what gets on everyone's nerves." > > "'deconstruction is firstly this destabilization on the move in, if one > could speak thus, 'the things themselves'; but it is not negative." > > "what it does is less to disturb them than to bring into the open that > which is disturbing them and menacing their consistency, their order, > their pertinence. " > > "I do not know . . . to which 'deconstructionists' you are alluding." > > Derrida in conversation -- LIMITED INC > > At 10:54 PM 2/1/2007, you wrote: > >> Sure there's a deconstructionist theory. it's the theory that the >> method of deconstruction produces valuable outcomes when applied to >> texts. >> >> and i thought he meant "representing" deconstruction in the sense that >> LL Cool J can be said to be "representing" Queens. >> >> ALDON L NIELSEN wrote: >> >>> there isn't really a "deconstructionist" theory -- and it's >>> profoundly odd to think of deconstruction as a theory that a poet >>> would then "represent." >>> Still, if you're really interested in deconstruciton and poetry, a >>> good place to look would be in Derrida's essays on Jabes and Ponge -- >>> On Thu, 01 Feb 2007 19:21:16 -0800 UB Poetics discussion group wrote: >>> >>> michel deguy comes to mind. >>> ric carfagna wrote: >>> >>>> Who are the poets who best represent deconstructionist theory? >>> >>> >>> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>> We are enslaved by >>> what makes us free -- intolerable >>> paradox at the heart of speech. >>> --Robert Kelly >>> Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ >>> Aldon L. Nielsen >>> Kelly Professor of American Literature >>> The Pennsylvania State University >>> 116 Burrowes >>> University Park, PA 16802-6200 >>> (814) 865-0091 > > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > "I stand corrected, like a bishop of the obvious." > --Robert Kelly > > > Aldon Lynn Nielsen > George and Barbara Kelly Professor of American Literature > Department of English > The Pennsylvania State University > 112 Burrowes > University Park, PA 16802-6200 > > (814) 865-0091 [office] > > (814) 863-7285 [Fax] > > Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 00:13:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: February 3 1943 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed February 3 1943 Happy birthday to me Happy birthday to me Happy birthday to Alan Happy birthday to me from the 406 manatees killed this year from the starving polar bears from the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi dead from the victims of famine and hurricanes from those slaughtered by death squads from my dead mother from those born of tornados and floods from those, those burned alive Happy birthday to me from my partner and friends Happy birthday to me ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 13:33:31 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Glass Subject: Is Charles Olson the John Frum of Canadian Experimental Poetry? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" A few belated notes on Open Field, plus why I like Canada now up at the www.ahadadabooks.com blog--they extend over a couple of pages, so please read in reverse order. Jess ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 18:16:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Zimmerman Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry Comments: cc: Daniel Zimmerman MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kant kan but kant. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maria Damon" To: Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 9:28 AM Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry > did kant write poetry??? > > At 10:02 PM -0800 2/1/07, Eireene Nealand wrote: >>well, and some of the best poets were theorists like Kant. I mean, he >>writes using bricks, which look ugly if you don't step back to see the >>architecture that he's building up. Whereas Hegel writes more like >>Virginia Woolf--because of the way that he constructs sentences, I >>mean. >> >>& maybe that would be a good way to start, looking for a poet who >>writes "sentences" with a perforated horizon (i am thinking of >>melville here of course.) >> >>> > >>> >>>In my opinion, poets do not represent theory. > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 21:42:33 -0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robin Hamilton Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit << has anyone else in List-land tried reading Finnegans Wake with an Irish accent? you pick up on a lot of buried information if you try this -- it dawned on me reading one passage that "damn fairy ann" could be read as "donc fait rien" -- then the whole page morphed into a kind of Joycean French argot, before my eyes... and no, I was perfectly sober at the time. ... tl >> Joyce's words above would seem to play on the British squaddies' surded French developed in WW1 -- "San fairy ann" for "ça ne fait rien". see: http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-san1.htm Robin Hamilton ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 10:11:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: New M/E /A/N /I/N /G -- Feminist Art: A Reassessment Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed M/E /A/N /I/N /G Online #4 http://writing.upenn.edu/pepc/meaning/04/ (February 2007) Feminist Art: A Reassessment Edited by Susan Bee & Mira Schor A forum including writing and images by artists and art historians from three generations Irina Aristarkhova, Susan Bee, Emma Bee Bernstein, Johanna Burton, Ingrid Calame, Maura Coughlin, Bailey Doogan, Johanna Drucker, Carol Duncan, Mary Beth Edelson, Joanna Frueh, Vanalyne Green, Mimi Gross, Susanna Heller, Janet Kaplan, Tom Knechtel, Judith Linhares, Lenore Malen, Ann McCoy, Adelheid Mers, Robin Mitchell, Carrie Moyer, Beverly Naidus, Rachel Owens, Sheila Pepe, Nancy Princenthal, Carolee Schneemann, Mira Schor, Joan Snyder, Anne Swartz, Faith Wilding, and Barbara Zucker. http://writing.upenn.edu/pepc/meaning/04/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 09:33:59 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Michael, you're not going to get any argument from me about any of that, much of which I've come across in my own readings. I'm simply suggesting that policing a form that isn't, in the first place, native to English might (might) produce the unintended consequence of ascribing too rigorously to rather arbitrary, if historically motivated, formalities. Contrary to many who compose them, sonnets are not simply about counting syllables or lines either. Me, I'd rather use the 5-7-5 reflexively, for instance, to challenge the tendency of some who dabble in non-native forms to produce an orientalized English. Granted, there are other ways to do this, and doing this raises perhaps some vexing issues. (But see my recent ~Finger Exorcised~, on BlazeVOX, for a page of doubtless feeble attempts at related haiku humor. Hell, I even use the incorrect plural, "haikus," as a sort of dirty joke. [Sound it out -- in English.] But I still feel a few items there manage to use the constraint to good effect.) Oh -- but that must be (responding to another thread now, Michael, this isn't directed at you) -- the "deconstructionist" in me, as per the committee report that resulted in my second tenure denial. Anyway. The additional constraints you helpfully elaborate on are indeed more interesting than the syllable/line game. Best, Joe >Sure, one can use any formal restraint as a poetic game, as a challenge of >sorts. But as challenges go, in haiku, the syllabic challenge >(whatever pattern > you might choose) is mighty superficial. Indeed, in my years of teaching >haiku, I've seen that it's the easiest thing in the world for >students of nearly >all grade levels to count their pretty little syllables. Why brag about >pulling on your underwear all by yourself when your hair is on fire? It's a >trivial "discipline." And these same haiku, while hitting that >trivial target -- >again, an incorrect target in English -- are widely missing the >more important >targets. And most often, these proud 5-7-5ers are completely oblivious to >those other targets -- ones that are actually more important. Why bother with >arbirary constraints for haiku when there are far more serious, literary, >challenging, and effective constraints that you miss in the process >of focusing >on 5-7-5?!? > >It can be fun to write cinquains or iambic pentameter, or the recent "Fib" >form (counting syllables in subsequent lines to match the Fibonacci >sequence). >But when it comes to haiku, writing 5-7-5 syllables in English isn't the >same as following the prescribed syllables of cinquains or >pentameter or Fibs. >That's because following 5-7-5 assumes a "correctness" for that pattern in >English, which isn't accurate when it's really a borrowed form. Yes, >sonnets are >borrowed from Italian to English, but at least that's the same alphabet, so >it's not fraught with the problems of translating from Japanese to English. >It's folly to translate the number (5-7-5) without thinking more deeply about >what is being counted. Yet that is precisely what has happened that lead to >the false conception of haiku being 5-7-5 syllables in English. Quite simply, >when we apply that pattern to English syllables, we miss the boat. It's >simplistic and naive. > >A person can do whatever they like and call it haiku (Lord knows that's >happened plenty enough). If you're having fun, knock yourself out. >But if you're >writing 5-7-5 haiku, it's best to be aware of how you're writing a poem that's > markedly longer than what is expressed in a Japanese haiku (not all of which >are 5-7-5, by the way). It's best to be aware that you're writing in a >pattern that, for good reason, pretty much ALL of the leading haiku >poets writing >in English do not follow. It's best to be aware that writing 5-7-5 frequently >creates artificial syntax and awkward line breaks purely for an unnecessary >constraint while more important strategies (also constraints) are completely >missed. Indeed, most 5-7-5 haiku writers tend to be completely unaware of the >other strategies necessary for traditional haiku, though perhaps that's a >separate problem, although it's frequently caused by a belief that >5-7-5 is all >there is to it. In any event, if one aims at seasonality and a two-part >juxtapositional structure, and employs objective sensory imagery, you can let >the rest of form take care of itself (organically). But of course, >there's more >to it than that -- writing in the present tense, no titles, no rhyme, seldom >any similes or metaphors, employing fragments rather than full sentences, >employing allusion, and more. And perhaps the most important aspect of all -- >implication. It's very hard to do well, to hint at something that the reader >can figure out on his own, making a leap of understanding that's >made possible >because of your restraint as a poet, because you deliberately left something >out. As I like to emphasize in haiku workshops, don't write about your >emotion, write about what caused your emotion. Then, if you do it >right, the reader >can feel what you felt without your having to say so. But of course all of >this is missed by those who think haiku is only a 5-7-5 syllable-counting >poetry trick. Some "challenge." > >As I say in the title of one of my haiku lectures: "Haiku: It's Bigger Than >You Think." Yet of course, it's also smaller than most English speakers think, > too. > >Michael > >P.S. Nearly every serious haiku poet I know has had a progression in their >haiku -- and I'm talking about many hundreds of leading haiku poets who I pay >attention to, perhaps even thousands. They nearly all started out writing >5-7-5, as did I. And then they progressed to learning the more >important aspects >of the genre (and haiku is best thought of as a genre of poetry, of which >"form" is just one aspect). At this point, nearly all of them stop writing in >the 5-7-5 pattern. The few exceptions to this progression include those who >went straight to avoiding 5-7-5 in the first place. But there are >clear reasons >for this progression. It's not that 5-7-5 is "abandoned." Rather, it is >apprehended as something that was inappropriate in the first place, >and causes >many problems in English. Higher targets are sought -- ones, in >fact, that turn >out to be far more challenging and require far more discipline. If 5-7-5 in >English serves any useful purpose, it is purely as the first >stepping-stone on >a long path. But, alas, too many people, even otherwise accomplished poets, >stop at just that first stepping stone with their haiku. > > >In a message dated 02-Feb-07 9:01:40 PM Pacific Standard Time, >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU writes: > >Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 10:41:59 -0600 >From: Joe Amato >Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match > >While I think it's a good idea to understand that 5-7-5 is simply a >convenience of sorts, even something of a mistranslation (even >something of a cultural oversight), I feel about this pretty much the >way I feel about bending any formal rule. I.e., it's fun to use >5-7-5 as an arbitrary constraint in composing haiku, just as it's fun >to use 14 lines as an arbitrary constraint in composing sonnets. >(Which latter might not result in 14 lines, ysee, but that won't keep >me from calling it a sonnet.) > >Granted, correcting the misconception is one thing. But having fun >with same is quite another, which, to me, is one reason I write >poetry. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 07:39:43 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brandi Homan Subject: Switchback Books Newsletter: Book release, Feb events, and Gatewood Prize MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi y’all— Switchback Books is celebrating the release of its inaugural publication, Talk Shows by Mónica de la Torre, this Valentine’s Day, Wednesday, February 14, 2007. The party starts at 8:30 pm in Chicago at the California Clipper, 1002 N California Ave (California at Augusta). Short readings will be given by all Switchback staff members (see below) as well as a feature-length reading by Mónica de la Torre. Come help us celebrate! In addition, Mónica de la Torre will be giving readings throughout the city and surrounding area with Switchback staff and advisory board members. Her complete tour is listed here: February 9, 9:00 pm—Discrete Series with Brandi Homan: Elastic Arts Space, 2830 N Milwaukee Ave, Chicago, IL February 11, 4:30 pm—Women & Children First with Arielle Greenberg: 5233 N Clark St, Chicago, IL February 13, 6:00 pm—A Room of One's Own Feminist Bookstore: 307 W Johnson St, Madison, WI February 14, 8:30 pm—Talk Shows Release Party: California Clipper, 1002 N California Ave, Chicago, IL February 16, 7:00 pm—Woodland Pattern with Simone Muench: 720 Locust St, Milwaukee, WI Finally, Switchback Books congratulates Caroline Noble Whitbeck, whose manuscript, Our Classical Heritage: A Homing Device, was selected by judge Arielle Greenberg as the winner of the 2006 Gatewood Prize. Our Classical Heritage will be published in September 2007. Kind regards, Becca Klaver, Brandi Homan, Hanna Andrews, and Kristin Aardsma Editors, Switchback Books *** Switchback Books is a feminist press publishing poetry by women. Founded in 2006 by a group of students at Columbia College Chicago, Switchback Books publishes two books a year, one of which is the winner of the Gatewood Prize for a first book of poetry by a woman aged 18 through 39. Switchback Books welcomes young women writers who aren't afraid to look for answers in all directions. Switchback Books staff: Becca Klaver, Founding Editor Brandi Homan, Editor-in-Chief Daniela Olszewska, Editorial Assistant Hanna Andrews, Founding Editor Jennifer Steele, Editorial Intern Kristin Aardsma, Editor LaRaie Zimm, Editorial Assistant Yvette Thomas, Editorial Intern For more information, visit www.switchbackbooks.com. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 09:52:56 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: Chapbooks In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed My wife, Lynda Schor, recently published a fiction chapbook called Adventures in Capitalism with Unicorn Press. Hal "In Latin America, even atheists are Catholics." --Carlos Fuentes Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com halvard@earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Feb 3, 2007, at 1:54 PM, Ian Randall Wilson wrote: > Are chapbooks just limited to poetry? Cervena Barva, a small press in > Boston, is trying experiments with "chapbooks" in fiction, too. > They just > published one of mine called Out of the Arcadian Ghetto. > > _http://www.cervenabarvapress.com/_ (http:// > www.cervenabarvapress.com/) > > > Ian Wilson ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 11:15:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Baldwin Subject: Re: rousseau and de man In-Reply-To: <316073.49836.qm@web35513.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline I think the statement in question is from the interview with Rosso at the = end of _The Resistance to Theory_, where de Man states:=20 "...I have a tendency to put upon texts an inherent authority, which is = stronger, I think, than Derrida is willing to put on them. I assume, as a = working hypothesis (as a working hypothesis, because I know batter than = that), that the texts *knows* in an absolute way what it's doing. I = knowthis is not the case, but it is a necesary working hypothesis that = Rousseau knows any time what he is doing and as such there is no need to = deconstruct Rousseau. In a complicated way, I would hold to the statement = that 'the text deconstructs itself, is self-deconstructive' rather than = being deconstructed by a philosophical intervention from outside the = text."=20 This is a crucial point and underlies the difference between Derrida on = Rousseau in _Of Grammatology_ and de Man on Derrida on Rousseau in "The = Rhetoric of Blindness." Barry and Alex are differing over whether the text = can be deconstructed by the critic vs. whether the text is "in deconstructi= on." De Man seems to suggest the latter, shifting emphasis away from the = work done by the critic to the work already at work in the work. ("I never = had an idea of my own," says de Man.) It is interesting to note that de = Man then adds that the difference is that he is a philologist and not a = philosopher (as Derrida is).=20 Sandy >>> Alexander Dickow 02/03/07 8:24 AM >>> Barry wrote: "I remember that for Paul de Man, Rousseau was the one writer who could=20 not be deconstructed--who was always, so to speak, way out in front of=20 the reader/critic." Where does de Man say this? I admit I'm surprised, since he "deconstructs" the Profession de foi du vicaire savoyard (Emile) in a very smart paper (one of the best on the Profession de foi). Rousseau -- see the Grammatologie -- was a cornerstone of "deconstructionist" reading practices from the beginnings of poststructuralism. Far from being "impossible to deconstruct", if you ask me! Not to mention: anyone who has read Rousseau carefully knows that his texts are veritable conundrums, vertiginous, infinitely tricky and unstable. "Impossible to deconstruct"? Rousseau's a master of slippery vocabulary (related terms with unstable boundaries, reinvented familiar words or notions...), and he can get you to call black orange in under five minutes. So, I'd love to know where (and how, why, etc) de Man makes this claim. Amicalement, Alex www.alexdickow.net/blog/=20 =20 les mots! ah quel d=E9sert =E0 la fin merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 09:47:06 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: thom donovan Subject: PEACE on A presents : Levi Strauss & Schlesinger : Fri. February 9th 2007 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peace On A presents David Levi Strauss & Kyle Schlesinger Friday, February 9th 2007 8PM BYOB & recommended donation: $5 hosted by Thom Donovan at 166 Avenue A, Apartment #2 New York, NY 10009 about the readers: Kyle Schlesinger is a book artist, poet, editor & founder of Cuneiform Press. Recent artists’ books include *A Book of Closings* and *Moonlighting*. His serial poem *Mantle* (with Thom Donovan) was published by Atticus Finch in 2005, and a forthcoming book of poems will be published by BlazeVox Books in 2007. He currently teaches poetry and typography at SUNY-Buffalo. Meanwhile prolongs this observation. Boarding trains this circular morn bet- ween two points the sky – robin blue and just for you. Declines night now. Waning figures cast fishnet sentences. Lines dar- ting here or there – sequence yourself. ~ from *Moonlighting* David Levi Strauss is a writer and critic in New York, where his essays and reviews appear regularly in Artforum and Aperture. His collection of essays on photography and politics, *Between the Eyes*, with an introduction by John Berger, was published by Aperture in 2003, and has just been released in an Italian edition by Postmedia. *The Book of 101 Books: Seminal Photography Books of the Twentieth Century*, with catalogue essays by Strauss, was published by P.P.P. Editions and D.A.P. in 2001. *Between Dog & Wolf: Essays on Art & Politics* was published in 1999 by Autonomedia, and *Broken Wings: The Legacy of Landmines* (with photographer Bobby Neel Adams) came out in 1998. His essays have appeared in a number of recent books and monographs on artists such as Leon Golub and Nancy Spero, Martin Puryear, Miguel Rio Branco, Francesca Woodman, Carolee Schneemann, and Alfredo Jaar. He was the founding editor of *ACTS: A Journal of New Writing* (1982-1990), and author of a book of poetry, *Manoeuvres*, before moving from San Francisco to New York in 1993. He has been awarded a Logan grant, three Artspace grants, a Visiting Scholar Research Fellowship from the Center for Creative Photography, a Guggenheim fellowship in 2003-04, and the Infinity Award for writing from the International Center of Photography in 2006. Strauss taught at the Center for Curatorial Studies at Bard College from 2001-05, and is now on the faculties of both the Graduate School of the Arts and the undergraduate studio art program at Bard. In his introduction to *Between the Eyes*, John Berger wrote, “Strauss, who is a poet and storyteller as well as being a renowned commentator on photography (I reject the designation critic) looks at images very hard . . . and comes face-to-face with the unexplained. Again and again. The unexplained that he encounters has only little to do with the mystery of art and everything to do with the mystery of countless lives being lived.” And Luc Sante wrote, “David Levi Strauss brings an eloquent and deep moral seriousness to his examination of photography. Again and again he makes the ringing point that trying to separate aesthetics and politics can only result in vacuity. He is photography’s troubled conscience.” Half hope, half fear. Like when people who react against politically committed art say, on the one hand, that such art is pretentious, delusional, and dishonest, since art is powerless to cause real political change; and, on the other hand, that this kind of art is irresponsible and dangerous, since it inflames the passions of the already savage rabble. So which is it, dog or wolf? ~ from *Between Dog & Wolf* Peace On A is devoted to emergent work by writers, artists, performers and scholars. Past presenters at Peace on A include Alan Gilbert, E. Tracy Grinnell, Cathy Park Hong, Paolo Javier, Andrew Levy & Eléna Rivera. Scroll down Wild Horses of Fire weblog (whof.blogspot.com) for back advertisements, introductions and reading selections. Measure a million million Measure a million to margin ~ Susan Howe 166 Avenue A NY, NY 10009 whof.blogspot.com ____________________________________________________________________________________ We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 13:08:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Chapman Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Am I wrong to think then that deconstruction is not going to make a come- back? It has been passed- over? Chris (doesn't know where theory is) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 13:57:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jcu Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit deconstuction is not a method or a formula, but just a habit of mind, a way of thinking that attends to what gets left out ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason Quackenbush" To: Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 4:23 AM Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry >i probably should have said methods, but that's splitting hairs. too many >useless idiots have made careers out of the kind of obtuse nonsense you >quote from Jacque D below. the method(s) of deconstruction is/are >straightforward and more or less uninteresting. > > put simply, to deconstruct, one must > > 1.) pick a text > 2.) identify one or more implications of the text > 3.) generate a number of bad puns using techniques usually drawn from > etymology, linguistics, and semiotics > 4.) use those puns as support for a thesis that runs counter to or in some > way subverts the implications you have identified in the text. > > It's really not all that complex, and there's more than one way to flay > that particular feline, and as a result I'm often quite surprised that > there's so much mystique surrounding the idea. Even if it were a valid way > to go about constructing an argument, i don't know that it's actually > useful in saying anything about the original text or its author. Moreover, > criticism employing such methods is usually so badly written (see, eg, > Dissemination, the rhetoric of romanticism, or laugh of the medusa) that > it's often impossible to give it the value of simply being fun to read, > which, for example, one can find in similarly goofy ideas propagated by > other schools of thought like the medieval scholastics, the ancient > neo-platonists, or some of derrida's more entertaining, > non-deconstructionist peers like Gilles Deleuze or ones who are simply > better philosophers like Foucault or Zizek who are good reads for the > quality of argument even though they're wrong about almost everything. > > > > > Aldon Nielsen wrote: >> and just what would the "method" of deconstruction be? and supposing >> that there were a "deconstructionist," how would such a person go about >> this representing? >> >> "There is no one, single deconstruction. Were there only one, were it >> homogeneous, it would not be inherently either conservative or >> revolutionary, or determinable within the code of such oppositions. That >> is precisely what gets on everyone's nerves." >> >> "'deconstruction is firstly this destabilization on the move in, if one >> could speak thus, 'the things themselves'; but it is not negative." >> >> "what it does is less to disturb them than to bring into the open that >> which is disturbing them and menacing their consistency, their order, >> their pertinence. " >> >> "I do not know . . . to which 'deconstructionists' you are alluding." >> >> Derrida in conversation -- LIMITED INC >> >> At 10:54 PM 2/1/2007, you wrote: >> >>> Sure there's a deconstructionist theory. it's the theory that the method >>> of deconstruction produces valuable outcomes when applied to texts. >>> >>> and i thought he meant "representing" deconstruction in the sense that >>> LL Cool J can be said to be "representing" Queens. >>> >>> ALDON L NIELSEN wrote: >>> >>>> there isn't really a "deconstructionist" theory -- and it's >>>> profoundly odd to think of deconstruction as a theory that a poet would >>>> then "represent." >>>> Still, if you're really interested in deconstruciton and poetry, a good >>>> place to look would be in Derrida's essays on Jabes and Ponge -- >>>> On Thu, 01 Feb 2007 19:21:16 -0800 UB Poetics discussion group wrote: >>>> >>>> michel deguy comes to mind. >>>> ric carfagna wrote: >>>> >>>>> Who are the poets who best represent deconstructionist theory? >>>> >>>> >>>> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> We are enslaved by >>>> what makes us free -- intolerable >>>> paradox at the heart of speech. >>>> --Robert Kelly >>>> Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ >>>> Aldon L. Nielsen >>>> Kelly Professor of American Literature >>>> The Pennsylvania State University >>>> 116 Burrowes >>>> University Park, PA 16802-6200 >>>> (814) 865-0091 >> >> >> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >> "I stand corrected, like a bishop of the obvious." >> --Robert Kelly >> >> >> Aldon Lynn Nielsen >> George and Barbara Kelly Professor of American Literature >> Department of English >> The Pennsylvania State University >> 112 Burrowes >> University Park, PA 16802-6200 >> >> (814) 865-0091 [office] >> >> (814) 863-7285 [Fax] >> >> Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 13:26:25 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry In-Reply-To: <0ae301c7488e$61f7e3a0$f205efd1@user45c726892d> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As in deconst( )ion ? Hal "To go is to go farther." --Kenneth Koch Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com halvard@earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Feb 4, 2007, at 12:57 PM, jcu wrote: > deconstuction is not a method > or a formula, but just a habit > of mind, a way of thinking > that attends to what gets > left out > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason Quackenbush" > To: > Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 4:23 AM > Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry > > >> i probably should have said methods, but that's splitting hairs. >> too many useless idiots have made careers out of the kind of >> obtuse nonsense you quote from Jacque D below. the method(s) of >> deconstruction is/are straightforward and more or less uninteresting. >> >> put simply, to deconstruct, one must >> >> 1.) pick a text >> 2.) identify one or more implications of the text >> 3.) generate a number of bad puns using techniques usually drawn >> from etymology, linguistics, and semiotics >> 4.) use those puns as support for a thesis that runs counter to or >> in some way subverts the implications you have identified in the >> text. >> >> It's really not all that complex, and there's more than one way to >> flay that particular feline, and as a result I'm often quite >> surprised that there's so much mystique surrounding the idea. Even >> if it were a valid way to go about constructing an argument, i >> don't know that it's actually useful in saying anything about the >> original text or its author. Moreover, criticism employing such >> methods is usually so badly written (see, eg, Dissemination, the >> rhetoric of romanticism, or laugh of the medusa) that it's often >> impossible to give it the value of simply being fun to read, >> which, for example, one can find in similarly goofy ideas >> propagated by other schools of thought like the medieval >> scholastics, the ancient neo-platonists, or some of derrida's more >> entertaining, non-deconstructionist peers like Gilles Deleuze or >> ones who are simply better philosophers like Foucault or Zizek who >> are good reads for the quality of argument even though they're >> wrong about almost everything. >> >> >> >> >> Aldon Nielsen wrote: >>> and just what would the "method" of deconstruction be? and >>> supposing that there were a "deconstructionist," how would such a >>> person go about this representing? >>> >>> "There is no one, single deconstruction. Were there only one, >>> were it homogeneous, it would not be inherently either >>> conservative or revolutionary, or determinable within the code of >>> such oppositions. That is precisely what gets on everyone's >>> nerves." >>> >>> "'deconstruction is firstly this destabilization on the move in, >>> if one could speak thus, 'the things themselves'; but it is not >>> negative." >>> >>> "what it does is less to disturb them than to bring into the open >>> that which is disturbing them and menacing their consistency, >>> their order, their pertinence. " >>> >>> "I do not know . . . to which 'deconstructionists' you are >>> alluding." >>> >>> Derrida in conversation -- LIMITED INC >>> >>> At 10:54 PM 2/1/2007, you wrote: >>> >>>> Sure there's a deconstructionist theory. it's the theory that >>>> the method of deconstruction produces valuable outcomes when >>>> applied to texts. >>>> >>>> and i thought he meant "representing" deconstruction in the >>>> sense that LL Cool J can be said to be "representing" Queens. >>>> >>>> ALDON L NIELSEN wrote: >>>> >>>>> there isn't really a "deconstructionist" theory -- >>>>> and it's profoundly odd to think of deconstruction as a theory >>>>> that a poet would then "represent." >>>>> Still, if you're really interested in deconstruciton and >>>>> poetry, a good place to look would be in Derrida's essays on >>>>> Jabes and Ponge -- >>>>> On Thu, 01 Feb 2007 19:21:16 -0800 UB Poetics discussion group >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> michel deguy comes to mind. >>>>> ric carfagna wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Who are the poets who best represent deconstructionist theory? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>> We are enslaved by >>>>> what makes us free -- intolerable >>>>> paradox at the heart of speech. >>>>> --Robert Kelly >>>>> Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ >>>>> Aldon L. Nielsen >>>>> Kelly Professor of American Literature >>>>> The Pennsylvania State University >>>>> 116 Burrowes >>>>> University Park, PA 16802-6200 >>>>> (814) 865-0091 >>> >>> >>> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>> "I stand corrected, like a bishop of the obvious." >>> --Robert Kelly >>> >>> >>> Aldon Lynn Nielsen >>> George and Barbara Kelly Professor of American Literature >>> Department of English >>> The Pennsylvania State University >>> 112 Burrowes >>> University Park, PA 16802-6200 >>> >>> (814) 865-0091 [office] >>> >>> (814) 863-7285 [Fax] >>> >>> Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 14:34:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry In-Reply-To: <0ae301c7488e$61f7e3a0$f205efd1@user45c726892d> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed I'm not sure that this will go through. Anyway, deconstruction is not a method or a means of locating subtexts; it relates on one hand to new criticism (in the sense that it treats the text as a messy entirety) and on the other to cultural studies (in the sense that peripheral/diacritical symptoms/tropes are of great importance - and thexe often subvert or disturb and apprent transparency of the surface). Years ago I wrote a paper that was used in a course on deconstruction (not mine); it was on the difference between the Sheffer stroke (not both A and B) and its dual (neither A nor B) in terms of the history of the shapes of the symbols in relation to psychoanalytical concerns (feminism, the phallic, expulsion, etc.). So there's first of all the simple logic involved, and second, its actual process of construction, its history, and so forth. The 'subversion' - such as it might be considered - is in using the (logical) formation to consider issues of origination, the 'primordial,' gender, etc., from the standpoint of this 'veering.' Deconstruction also references the metaphysics underlying a text - not in the sense again of _sub_ text - but underlying in the sense of implicit within it, incoherent within it, the slight edge that tends elsewhere, that threatens to overturn the text. (Again, years ago I did a Kristevan analysis of the '10 commandments' (in the Hebrew) along these lines.) So that what might seem a barrier, is open, and what is open, might seem a barrier, the gate which isn't a gate (yes, there's a relation to Zen I think). All of that said, it's difficult to pin the process down - since it's neither process or product; I think of it, like glas, as a discourse which has always already continued and continues to continue, a discourse of humans which undercuts conclusion, totality, absolute - but which nonetheless carries a very real political component, activist as well. - Alan ======================================================================= Work on YouTube, blog at http://nikuko.blogspot.com . Tel 718-813-3285. Webpage directory http://www.asondheim.org . Email: sondheim@panix.com. http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim for theory; also check WVU Zwiki, Google for recent. Write for info on books, cds, performance, dvds, etc. ============================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 14:41:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: dubravka, green integer In-Reply-To: <45C4573C.30005@myuw.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline I second everything Jason says. My personal very favorites among many favorites: Poe's "Eureka" and Bresson's "Notes of a Cinematographer(?)". Ciao, Murat On 2/3/07, Jason Quackenbush wrote: > > I agree with that completely. A quick scan of my bookshelf reveals > probably more green integer titles than from any other poetry press. A fe= w > of my faves: > > Arcanum 17, Andre Breton > tender buttons (i think there's another edition in print, but i also seem > to recall it's small and printed on cheap paper) > lorca's suites > > i just checked the site, and i see that there's a planned release of > Berkeley's Three Dialogues which will no doubt be very cool and i intend = to > buy > quickly. The thing i love about green integer is that they're a publisher > you can trust. i often am browsing in a bookstore and will see something = by > someone i haven't heard of and buy it, and as a result discover someone > amazing. that's actually where my introduction to larry eigner came from, > and > I'm very much indebted to messerli for publishing > "readiness/enough/depends/on" for that reason. > > Alexander Dickow wrote: > > Dubravka, > > Green Integer is, yes, one of the publishing houses I > > most admire. Their catalogue is...droolworthy. Green > > Integer makes me *swoon*. Beautiful little books, too. > > Everyone should pore carefully over the wonders of > > Green Integer Review and its previous incarnation. > > And, you might read Douglas Messerli's (sorta the > > mastermind behind Green Integer, I believe) comments > > and poems on the Argotist Online lately. > > Amicalement, > > Alex > > > > > > > > www.alexdickow.net/blog/ > > > > les mots! ah quel d=E9sert =E0 la fin > > merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 14:45:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: 50 ANIVERSARIO DE LA POESIA CONCRETA In-Reply-To: <95DF76F1-3B29-499E-9AB6-1617866B728C@MWT.NET> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Great collection! Murat On 2/3/07, mIEKAL aND wrote: > > 50 ANIVERSARIO DE LA POESIA CONCRETA > > Disfrute de este espacio en la website BOEK861 de C=E9sar Reglero, > dedicado al homenaje de los 50 a=F1os de la Poes=EDa Concreta. > > http://www.boek861.com/stutgart/ > > > > 50 ANNIVERSARY OF CONCRETE POETRY > > Enjoy this space in Cesar Reglero=B4s website BOEK861, dedicated to > Homage 50 Years of Concrete Poetry. > > http://boek861.com/stutgart/index_en.htm > > > > PARTICIPANTES - PARTICIPANTS > > Giovanni Fontana, Adam Fong, Adolf, Agust=EDn Calvo Gal=E1n, Alejandro > Thornton, Alkak Luiz dos Santos y Gilbertto Prado, Ana Glafira, > Anamar=EDa Briede, Angela Ib=E1=F1ez, Antonella Prota Giurleo, Antoni > Albalat, Antonio C=E1res, Antonio Monterroso, Antonio Orihuela, Baldo > Ramos, Beatriz San Mill=E1n, Birger Jesch, Brian Whitener, Carol Starr, > Caterina Davinio, Cecil Touchon, Cesar Reglero, Christian Hasucha, > Cirus Console, Claudia del Rio, Claudio Grandinetti, Clemente Pad=EDn, > Constan=E7a Lucas, Costis, Dan Buck, David Daniels, Demosthene > Agrafiotis, Denis Charmot, Emerenciano, Eugenia Serafini, Fausto > Grossi, Feliciano Mira, Francesc Xavier For=E9s, Franco Focardi, > Franklin Valverde, G. J. de Rook, Geof Huth, Gerardo Podhajny, > Graciela Guti=E9rrez Marx, Gregory Vincent St Thomasino, Gunther Ruch, > Gustavo Fern=E1ndez Alonso, Gustavo Vega, Henning Mittendorf, Irving > Weiss, Isabel Jover, Ivan Etienne, J. M. Calleja, Jeanete EKohler, > Joaquim Branco, John Bennett, Jorge Ismael Rodr=EDguez, Jos=E9 Blanco, > Josep Sou, Julien Blaine, Jurgen O.Olbrich, Keiichi Nakamura, Kostas > Hrisos, Leticia Alonso Hern=E1ndez, Litsa Spathi, Lois Gil Magari=F1os, > Lorena Cordero, Luc Fierens, Manuel A. Sousa, Mara Caruso, Mar=EDa Jos=E9 > Ares Mondino, Mark Sutherland, Michael Morris, Miekal And, Miguel > Jim=E9nez Zen=F3n, Monica Vallejo, Neusa Cauduro, Nicola Frangione, Nikos > Vassilakis, Norberto Jos=E9 Mart=EDnez, P.Thoma, Patricia Robledo, > Patricia Sibar, Paul de Vree, Paul Tiilil=E4, Rainer Stolz, Reed > Altemus, Regina Vater, Roberto Scala, Rocia Alegre, Rod Summers, > Ruediger Axel Westphal, Ruud Janssen, Sergio Monteiro, Shutaro Mukai, > Silvia Lisa, Susana Romano, Tamara Wyndham, Thierry Tiliier, Tom > Gaze, Vaclav Havel, Virginia Oviedo Rodr=EDguez y Vittore Baroni. > > BOEK861 > cesar@boek861.com > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 15:18:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jcu Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit as in de:constanticipation joan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Halvard Johnson" To: Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 2:26 PM Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry > As in > > deconst( )ion > > ? > > Hal > > "To go is to go farther." > --Kenneth Koch > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard@gmail.com > halvard@earthlink.net > http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > > > > On Feb 4, 2007, at 12:57 PM, jcu wrote: > >> deconstuction is not a method >> or a formula, but just a habit >> of mind, a way of thinking >> that attends to what gets >> left out >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason Quackenbush" >> To: >> Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 4:23 AM >> Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry >> >> >>> i probably should have said methods, but that's splitting hairs. >>> too many useless idiots have made careers out of the kind of >>> obtuse nonsense you quote from Jacque D below. the method(s) of >>> deconstruction is/are straightforward and more or less uninteresting. >>> >>> put simply, to deconstruct, one must >>> >>> 1.) pick a text >>> 2.) identify one or more implications of the text >>> 3.) generate a number of bad puns using techniques usually drawn >>> from etymology, linguistics, and semiotics >>> 4.) use those puns as support for a thesis that runs counter to or >>> in some way subverts the implications you have identified in the >>> text. >>> >>> It's really not all that complex, and there's more than one way to >>> flay that particular feline, and as a result I'm often quite >>> surprised that there's so much mystique surrounding the idea. Even >>> if it were a valid way to go about constructing an argument, i >>> don't know that it's actually useful in saying anything about the >>> original text or its author. Moreover, criticism employing such >>> methods is usually so badly written (see, eg, Dissemination, the >>> rhetoric of romanticism, or laugh of the medusa) that it's often >>> impossible to give it the value of simply being fun to read, >>> which, for example, one can find in similarly goofy ideas >>> propagated by other schools of thought like the medieval >>> scholastics, the ancient neo-platonists, or some of derrida's more >>> entertaining, non-deconstructionist peers like Gilles Deleuze or >>> ones who are simply better philosophers like Foucault or Zizek who >>> are good reads for the quality of argument even though they're >>> wrong about almost everything. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Aldon Nielsen wrote: >>>> and just what would the "method" of deconstruction be? and >>>> supposing that there were a "deconstructionist," how would such a >>>> person go about this representing? >>>> >>>> "There is no one, single deconstruction. Were there only one, >>>> were it homogeneous, it would not be inherently either >>>> conservative or revolutionary, or determinable within the code of >>>> such oppositions. That is precisely what gets on everyone's >>>> nerves." >>>> >>>> "'deconstruction is firstly this destabilization on the move in, >>>> if one could speak thus, 'the things themselves'; but it is not >>>> negative." >>>> >>>> "what it does is less to disturb them than to bring into the open >>>> that which is disturbing them and menacing their consistency, >>>> their order, their pertinence. " >>>> >>>> "I do not know . . . to which 'deconstructionists' you are >>>> alluding." >>>> >>>> Derrida in conversation -- LIMITED INC >>>> >>>> At 10:54 PM 2/1/2007, you wrote: >>>> >>>>> Sure there's a deconstructionist theory. it's the theory that >>>>> the method of deconstruction produces valuable outcomes when >>>>> applied to texts. >>>>> >>>>> and i thought he meant "representing" deconstruction in the >>>>> sense that LL Cool J can be said to be "representing" Queens. >>>>> >>>>> ALDON L NIELSEN wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> there isn't really a "deconstructionist" theory -- >>>>>> and it's profoundly odd to think of deconstruction as a theory >>>>>> that a poet would then "represent." >>>>>> Still, if you're really interested in deconstruciton and >>>>>> poetry, a good place to look would be in Derrida's essays on >>>>>> Jabes and Ponge -- >>>>>> On Thu, 01 Feb 2007 19:21:16 -0800 UB Poetics discussion group >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> michel deguy comes to mind. >>>>>> ric carfagna wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Who are the poets who best represent deconstructionist theory? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> We are enslaved by >>>>>> what makes us free -- intolerable >>>>>> paradox at the heart of speech. >>>>>> --Robert Kelly >>>>>> Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ >>>>>> Aldon L. Nielsen >>>>>> Kelly Professor of American Literature >>>>>> The Pennsylvania State University >>>>>> 116 Burrowes >>>>>> University Park, PA 16802-6200 >>>>>> (814) 865-0091 >>>> >>>> >>>> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>> "I stand corrected, like a bishop of the obvious." >>>> --Robert Kelly >>>> >>>> >>>> Aldon Lynn Nielsen >>>> George and Barbara Kelly Professor of American Literature >>>> Department of English >>>> The Pennsylvania State University >>>> 112 Burrowes >>>> University Park, PA 16802-6200 >>>> >>>> (814) 865-0091 [office] >>>> >>>> (814) 863-7285 [Fax] >>>> >>>> Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 12:20:22 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amy king Subject: ATTACK ON ADAM'S? & MINI-INTERVIEW - RON PADGETT In-Reply-To: <1170612520.45c6212840373@webmail.nd.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit DETAILS CONCEALED HERE: http://amyking.org/blog/ --------------------------------- 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 15:25:01 -0500 Reply-To: Martha Deed Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Martha Deed Subject: Re: SOS POETRY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This one's a keeper. Funny and wise and eye-opening. Martha Deed ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mairead Byrne" To: Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 12:54 PM Subject: SOS POETRY Let a free book steal YOUR time: My book SOS POETRY has just been published by UbuWeb http://ubu.com as an /ubu Edition http://ubu.com/ubu Mairead Mairéad Byrne Associate Professor of English Rhode Island School of Design 2 College Street Providence, RI 02903 -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.17.24/668 - Release Date: 2/4/2007 1:30 AM ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 15:13:11 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Crockett Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry In-Reply-To: <0af801c74899$aeb8a0c0$f205efd1@user45c726892d> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To me: "deconstruction" is a sensational term used to hype a technique that, again, to me, at basics is a way of balancing a text, a way to provide suggestions in order to improve succeeding instantiations of its _moral content_ as it's construed of its binaries nexus (sounds like Baskin Robbins, yes?). Me, well, I still love existentialism. Old style. jcu wrote: > as in > de:constanticipation > > > > joan > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Halvard Johnson" > > To: > Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 2:26 PM > Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry > > >> As in >> >> deconst( )ion >> >> ? >> >> Hal >> >> "To go is to go farther." >> --Kenneth Koch >> >> Halvard Johnson >> ================ >> halvard@gmail.com >> halvard@earthlink.net >> http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard >> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >> http://www.hamiltonstone.org >> >> >> >> >> On Feb 4, 2007, at 12:57 PM, jcu wrote: >> >>> deconstuction is not a method >>> or a formula, but just a habit >>> of mind, a way of thinking >>> that attends to what gets >>> left out >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason Quackenbush" >>> To: >>> Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 4:23 AM >>> Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry >>> >>> >>>> i probably should have said methods, but that's splitting hairs. >>>> too many useless idiots have made careers out of the kind of >>>> obtuse nonsense you quote from Jacque D below. the method(s) of >>>> deconstruction is/are straightforward and more or less uninteresting. >>>> >>>> put simply, to deconstruct, one must >>>> >>>> 1.) pick a text >>>> 2.) identify one or more implications of the text >>>> 3.) generate a number of bad puns using techniques usually drawn >>>> from etymology, linguistics, and semiotics >>>> 4.) use those puns as support for a thesis that runs counter to or >>>> in some way subverts the implications you have identified in the >>>> text. >>>> >>>> It's really not all that complex, and there's more than one way to >>>> flay that particular feline, and as a result I'm often quite >>>> surprised that there's so much mystique surrounding the idea. Even >>>> if it were a valid way to go about constructing an argument, i >>>> don't know that it's actually useful in saying anything about the >>>> original text or its author. Moreover, criticism employing such >>>> methods is usually so badly written (see, eg, Dissemination, the >>>> rhetoric of romanticism, or laugh of the medusa) that it's often >>>> impossible to give it the value of simply being fun to read, >>>> which, for example, one can find in similarly goofy ideas >>>> propagated by other schools of thought like the medieval >>>> scholastics, the ancient neo-platonists, or some of derrida's more >>>> entertaining, non-deconstructionist peers like Gilles Deleuze or >>>> ones who are simply better philosophers like Foucault or Zizek who >>>> are good reads for the quality of argument even though they're >>>> wrong about almost everything. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Aldon Nielsen wrote: >>>>> and just what would the "method" of deconstruction be? and >>>>> supposing that there were a "deconstructionist," how would such a >>>>> person go about this representing? >>>>> >>>>> "There is no one, single deconstruction. Were there only one, >>>>> were it homogeneous, it would not be inherently either >>>>> conservative or revolutionary, or determinable within the code of >>>>> such oppositions. That is precisely what gets on everyone's >>>>> nerves." >>>>> >>>>> "'deconstruction is firstly this destabilization on the move in, >>>>> if one could speak thus, 'the things themselves'; but it is not >>>>> negative." >>>>> >>>>> "what it does is less to disturb them than to bring into the open >>>>> that which is disturbing them and menacing their consistency, >>>>> their order, their pertinence. " >>>>> >>>>> "I do not know . . . to which 'deconstructionists' you are >>>>> alluding." >>>>> >>>>> Derrida in conversation -- LIMITED INC >>>>> >>>>> At 10:54 PM 2/1/2007, you wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Sure there's a deconstructionist theory. it's the theory that >>>>>> the method of deconstruction produces valuable outcomes when >>>>>> applied to texts. >>>>>> >>>>>> and i thought he meant "representing" deconstruction in the >>>>>> sense that LL Cool J can be said to be "representing" Queens. >>>>>> >>>>>> ALDON L NIELSEN wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> there isn't really a "deconstructionist" theory -- >>>>>>> and it's profoundly odd to think of deconstruction as a theory >>>>>>> that a poet would then "represent." >>>>>>> Still, if you're really interested in deconstruciton and >>>>>>> poetry, a good place to look would be in Derrida's essays on >>>>>>> Jabes and Ponge -- >>>>>>> On Thu, 01 Feb 2007 19:21:16 -0800 UB Poetics discussion group >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> michel deguy comes to mind. >>>>>>> ric carfagna wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Who are the poets who best represent deconstructionist theory? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> We are enslaved by >>>>>>> what makes us free -- intolerable >>>>>>> paradox at the heart of speech. >>>>>>> --Robert Kelly >>>>>>> Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ >>>>>>> Aldon L. Nielsen >>>>>>> Kelly Professor of American Literature >>>>>>> The Pennsylvania State University >>>>>>> 116 Burrowes >>>>>>> University Park, PA 16802-6200 >>>>>>> (814) 865-0091 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> "I stand corrected, like a bishop of the obvious." >>>>> --Robert Kelly >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Aldon Lynn Nielsen >>>>> George and Barbara Kelly Professor of American Literature >>>>> Department of English >>>>> The Pennsylvania State University >>>>> 112 Burrowes >>>>> University Park, PA 16802-6200 >>>>> >>>>> (814) 865-0091 [office] >>>>> >>>>> (814) 863-7285 [Fax] >>>>> >>>>> Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ >> ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 16:37:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jcu Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I hail from the world of visual art first, and only know the term as a philosphical one ... the notion of using `deconstruction` as a formula for literary critique eludes me since it seems to contradict what Derrida meant it to represent ... which was not a formulaic method. (but I also love that goofy DeleuZe) so maybe I`m just expressing my incredulity at deconstruction-as-a-literary device however, I love your notion of a binary nexus in Baskin Robbins. Would that make Hagen Daas an intervenous drip? respectfully, joan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jesse Crockett" To: Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 4:13 PM Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry > To me: "deconstruction" is a sensational term used to hype a technique > that, again, to me, at basics is a way of balancing a text, a way to > provide suggestions in order to improve succeeding instantiations of its > _moral content_ as it's construed of its binaries nexus (sounds like > Baskin Robbins, yes?). Me, well, I still love existentialism. Old style. > > > jcu wrote: >> as in >> de:constanticipation >> >> >> >> joan >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Halvard Johnson" >> >> To: >> Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 2:26 PM >> Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry >> >> >>> As in >>> >>> deconst( )ion >>> >>> ? >>> >>> Hal >>> >>> "To go is to go farther." >>> --Kenneth Koch >>> >>> Halvard Johnson >>> ================ >>> halvard@gmail.com >>> halvard@earthlink.net >>> http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard >>> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >>> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >>> http://www.hamiltonstone.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Feb 4, 2007, at 12:57 PM, jcu wrote: >>> >>>> deconstuction is not a method >>>> or a formula, but just a habit >>>> of mind, a way of thinking >>>> that attends to what gets >>>> left out >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason Quackenbush" >>>> To: >>>> Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 4:23 AM >>>> Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry >>>> >>>> >>>>> i probably should have said methods, but that's splitting hairs. too >>>>> many useless idiots have made careers out of the kind of obtuse >>>>> nonsense you quote from Jacque D below. the method(s) of >>>>> deconstruction is/are straightforward and more or less uninteresting. >>>>> >>>>> put simply, to deconstruct, one must >>>>> >>>>> 1.) pick a text >>>>> 2.) identify one or more implications of the text >>>>> 3.) generate a number of bad puns using techniques usually drawn from >>>>> etymology, linguistics, and semiotics >>>>> 4.) use those puns as support for a thesis that runs counter to or in >>>>> some way subverts the implications you have identified in the text. >>>>> >>>>> It's really not all that complex, and there's more than one way to >>>>> flay that particular feline, and as a result I'm often quite >>>>> surprised that there's so much mystique surrounding the idea. Even if >>>>> it were a valid way to go about constructing an argument, i don't >>>>> know that it's actually useful in saying anything about the original >>>>> text or its author. Moreover, criticism employing such methods is >>>>> usually so badly written (see, eg, Dissemination, the rhetoric of >>>>> romanticism, or laugh of the medusa) that it's often impossible to >>>>> give it the value of simply being fun to read, which, for example, >>>>> one can find in similarly goofy ideas propagated by other schools of >>>>> thought like the medieval scholastics, the ancient neo-platonists, or >>>>> some of derrida's more entertaining, non-deconstructionist peers like >>>>> Gilles Deleuze or ones who are simply better philosophers like >>>>> Foucault or Zizek who are good reads for the quality of argument even >>>>> though they're wrong about almost everything. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Aldon Nielsen wrote: >>>>>> and just what would the "method" of deconstruction be? and >>>>>> supposing that there were a "deconstructionist," how would such a >>>>>> person go about this representing? >>>>>> >>>>>> "There is no one, single deconstruction. Were there only one, were >>>>>> it homogeneous, it would not be inherently either conservative or >>>>>> revolutionary, or determinable within the code of such oppositions. >>>>>> That is precisely what gets on everyone's nerves." >>>>>> >>>>>> "'deconstruction is firstly this destabilization on the move in, if >>>>>> one could speak thus, 'the things themselves'; but it is not >>>>>> negative." >>>>>> >>>>>> "what it does is less to disturb them than to bring into the open >>>>>> that which is disturbing them and menacing their consistency, their >>>>>> order, their pertinence. " >>>>>> >>>>>> "I do not know . . . to which 'deconstructionists' you are >>>>>> alluding." >>>>>> >>>>>> Derrida in conversation -- LIMITED INC >>>>>> >>>>>> At 10:54 PM 2/1/2007, you wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Sure there's a deconstructionist theory. it's the theory that the >>>>>>> method of deconstruction produces valuable outcomes when applied to >>>>>>> texts. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> and i thought he meant "representing" deconstruction in the sense >>>>>>> that LL Cool J can be said to be "representing" Queens. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ALDON L NIELSEN wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> there isn't really a "deconstructionist" theory -- and >>>>>>>> it's profoundly odd to think of deconstruction as a theory that a >>>>>>>> poet would then "represent." >>>>>>>> Still, if you're really interested in deconstruciton and poetry, a >>>>>>>> good place to look would be in Derrida's essays on Jabes and >>>>>>>> Ponge -- >>>>>>>> On Thu, 01 Feb 2007 19:21:16 -0800 UB Poetics discussion group >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> michel deguy comes to mind. >>>>>>>> ric carfagna wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Who are the poets who best represent deconstructionist theory? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We are enslaved by >>>>>>>> what makes us free -- intolerable >>>>>>>> paradox at the heart of speech. >>>>>>>> --Robert Kelly >>>>>>>> Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ >>>>>>>> Aldon L. Nielsen >>>>>>>> Kelly Professor of American Literature >>>>>>>> The Pennsylvania State University >>>>>>>> 116 Burrowes >>>>>>>> University Park, PA 16802-6200 >>>>>>>> (814) 865-0091 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> "I stand corrected, like a bishop of the obvious." >>>>>> --Robert Kelly >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Aldon Lynn Nielsen >>>>>> George and Barbara Kelly Professor of American Literature >>>>>> Department of English >>>>>> The Pennsylvania State University >>>>>> 112 Burrowes >>>>>> University Park, PA 16802-6200 >>>>>> >>>>>> (814) 865-0091 [office] >>>>>> >>>>>> (814) 863-7285 [Fax] >>>>>> >>>>>> Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ >>> > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 18:56:23 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry In-Reply-To: <0ae301c7488e$61f7e3a0$f205efd1@user45c726892d> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i disagree with such obvious obfuscations intended to add mystique in place of clarity. jcu wrote: > deconstuction is not a method > or a formula, but just a habit > of mind, a way of thinking > that attends to what gets > left out > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason Quackenbush" > To: > Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 4:23 AM > Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry > > >> i probably should have said methods, but that's splitting hairs. too >> many useless idiots have made careers out of the kind of obtuse >> nonsense you quote from Jacque D below. the method(s) of >> deconstruction is/are straightforward and more or less uninteresting. >> >> put simply, to deconstruct, one must >> >> 1.) pick a text >> 2.) identify one or more implications of the text >> 3.) generate a number of bad puns using techniques usually drawn from >> etymology, linguistics, and semiotics >> 4.) use those puns as support for a thesis that runs counter to or in >> some way subverts the implications you have identified in the text. >> >> It's really not all that complex, and there's more than one way to >> flay that particular feline, and as a result I'm often quite surprised >> that there's so much mystique surrounding the idea. Even if it were a >> valid way to go about constructing an argument, i don't know that it's >> actually useful in saying anything about the original text or its >> author. Moreover, criticism employing such methods is usually so badly >> written (see, eg, Dissemination, the rhetoric of romanticism, or laugh >> of the medusa) that it's often impossible to give it the value of >> simply being fun to read, which, for example, one can find in >> similarly goofy ideas propagated by other schools of thought like the >> medieval scholastics, the ancient neo-platonists, or some of derrida's >> more entertaining, non-deconstructionist peers like Gilles Deleuze or >> ones who are simply better philosophers like Foucault or Zizek who are >> good reads for the quality of argument even though they're wrong about >> almost everything. >> >> >> >> >> Aldon Nielsen wrote: >> >>> and just what would the "method" of deconstruction be? and supposing >>> that there were a "deconstructionist," how would such a person go >>> about this representing? >>> >>> "There is no one, single deconstruction. Were there only one, were >>> it homogeneous, it would not be inherently either conservative or >>> revolutionary, or determinable within the code of such oppositions. >>> That is precisely what gets on everyone's nerves." >>> >>> "'deconstruction is firstly this destabilization on the move in, if >>> one could speak thus, 'the things themselves'; but it is not negative." >>> >>> "what it does is less to disturb them than to bring into the open >>> that which is disturbing them and menacing their consistency, their >>> order, their pertinence. " >>> >>> "I do not know . . . to which 'deconstructionists' you are alluding." >>> >>> Derrida in conversation -- LIMITED INC >>> >>> At 10:54 PM 2/1/2007, you wrote: >>> >>>> Sure there's a deconstructionist theory. it's the theory that the >>>> method of deconstruction produces valuable outcomes when applied to >>>> texts. >>>> >>>> and i thought he meant "representing" deconstruction in the sense >>>> that LL Cool J can be said to be "representing" Queens. >>>> >>>> ALDON L NIELSEN wrote: >>>> >>>>> there isn't really a "deconstructionist" theory -- and >>>>> it's profoundly odd to think of deconstruction as a theory that a >>>>> poet would then "represent." >>>>> Still, if you're really interested in deconstruciton and poetry, a >>>>> good place to look would be in Derrida's essays on Jabes and Ponge -- >>>>> On Thu, 01 Feb 2007 19:21:16 -0800 UB Poetics discussion group wrote: >>>>> >>>>> michel deguy comes to mind. >>>>> ric carfagna wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Who are the poets who best represent deconstructionist theory? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> We are enslaved by >>>>> what makes us free -- intolerable >>>>> paradox at the heart of speech. >>>>> --Robert Kelly >>>>> Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ >>>>> Aldon L. Nielsen >>>>> Kelly Professor of American Literature >>>>> The Pennsylvania State University >>>>> 116 Burrowes >>>>> University Park, PA 16802-6200 >>>>> (814) 865-0091 >>> >>> >>> >>> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>> "I stand corrected, like a bishop of the obvious." >>> --Robert Kelly >>> >>> >>> Aldon Lynn Nielsen >>> George and Barbara Kelly Professor of American Literature >>> Department of English >>> The Pennsylvania State University >>> 112 Burrowes >>> University Park, PA 16802-6200 >>> >>> (814) 865-0091 [office] >>> >>> (814) 863-7285 [Fax] >>> >>> Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ >> >> ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 19:15:04 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit what you have described is a method and the things that you say are not subtexts are subtexts. deconstruction is little more than linguistic legerdemain. I can't respond to your paper about the sheffer stroke because i haven't read it, but the idea of extrapolating issues of gender and metaphysics from the speculations about the psychology behind the choice of symbols is precisely the sort of deconstructionist nonsense that ought be avoided at all costs. There are no metaphysics underlying texts because metaphysics is a philosophical card game akin to 52 card pick up that no one can win or lose. therefore any attempt to "get at" the metaphysics underlying texts (if they really aren't subtexts, which i take to be either a very dubious assertion or quibbling over terms and either way nonproductive) is doomed to produce only the most unstable and stipulated of philosophical card houses, the value of which houses is questionable from the outset. I again assert that deconstruction is a method, and that the method is observable in deconstructivist texts like the ones i mentioned previously. I personally see no value in such a method and await any supporter of it to show me it's value without invoking meaningless heidegger derived jargon such as "always already". say "is." it means the same thing. no really, it does. Alan Sondheim wrote: > I'm not sure that this will go through. > > Anyway, deconstruction is not a method or a means of locating subtexts; > it relates on one hand to new criticism (in the sense that it treats the > text as a messy entirety) and on the other to cultural studies (in the > sense that peripheral/diacritical symptoms/tropes are of great > importance - and thexe often subvert or disturb and apprent transparency > of the surface). Years ago I wrote a paper that was used in a course on > deconstruction (not mine); it was on the difference between the Sheffer > stroke (not both A and B) and its dual (neither A nor B) in terms of the > history of the shapes of the symbols in relation to psychoanalytical > concerns (feminism, the phallic, expulsion, etc.). So there's first of > all the simple logic involved, and second, its actual process of > construction, its history, and so forth. The 'subversion' - such as it > might be considered - is in using the (logical) formation to consider > issues of origination, the 'primordial,' gender, etc., from the > standpoint of this 'veering.' > > Deconstruction also references the metaphysics underlying a text - not > in the sense again of _sub_ text - but underlying in the sense of > implicit within it, incoherent within it, the slight edge that tends > elsewhere, that threatens to overturn the text. (Again, years ago I did > a Kristevan analysis of the '10 commandments' (in the Hebrew) along > these lines.) So that what might seem a barrier, is open, and what is > open, might seem a barrier, the gate which isn't a gate (yes, there's a > relation to Zen I think). > > All of that said, it's difficult to pin the process down - since it's > neither process or product; I think of it, like glas, as a discourse > which has always already continued and continues to continue, a > discourse of humans which undercuts conclusion, totality, absolute - but > which nonetheless carries a very real political component, activist as > well. > > - Alan > > > ======================================================================= > Work on YouTube, blog at http://nikuko.blogspot.com . Tel 718-813-3285. > Webpage directory http://www.asondheim.org . Email: sondheim@panix.com. > http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim for theory; also check > WVU Zwiki, Google for recent. Write for info on books, cds, performance, > dvds, etc. ============================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 22:40:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Contact info request; fashion snark MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit If anybody can give me contact info, backchannel please, for Forrest Gander, CD Wright, Alice Notley, and/or Erin Moure, do please let me know. Unrelatedly, who the hell let Prince out of the house in that ghastly suit and do-rag that seemed to be hiding curlers? The colors didn't flatter his complexion; the cut didn't flatter his body; the whole ensemble, complete with jacket embroidery, was a passionate statement in favor of fug. I'm not advocating a return to all-purple all the time, but when the glowing marching-band members looked better than he did, that was just really sad. Many thanks -- Gwyn ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 22:48:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry In-Reply-To: <45C6A138.1070705@myuw.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Actually it doesn't, and your reply is not only harsh but more inclined to invective than analysis. Go for it. But 'always already' deals with pre- suppositions, the continuous establishment of a state of affairs, not a copula. - Alan On Sun, 4 Feb 2007, Jason Quackenbush wrote: > what you have described is a method and the things that you say are not > subtexts are subtexts. deconstruction is little more than linguistic > legerdemain. I can't respond to your paper about the sheffer stroke because i > haven't read it, but the idea of extrapolating issues of gender and > metaphysics from the speculations about the psychology behind the choice of > symbols is precisely the sort of deconstructionist nonsense that ought be > avoided at all costs. There are no metaphysics underlying texts because > metaphysics is a philosophical card game akin to 52 card pick up that no one > can win or lose. therefore any attempt to "get at" the metaphysics underlying > texts (if they really aren't subtexts, which i take to be either a very > dubious assertion or quibbling over terms and either way nonproductive) is > doomed to produce only the most unstable and stipulated of philosophical card > houses, the value of which houses is questionable from the outset. > > I again assert that deconstruction is a method, and that the method is > observable in deconstructivist texts like the ones i mentioned previously. I > personally see no value in such a method and await any supporter of it to > show me it's value without invoking meaningless heidegger derived jargon such > as "always already". say "is." it means the same thing. no really, it does. > > > Alan Sondheim wrote: >> I'm not sure that this will go through. >> >> Anyway, deconstruction is not a method or a means of locating subtexts; it >> relates on one hand to new criticism (in the sense that it treats the text >> as a messy entirety) and on the other to cultural studies (in the sense >> that peripheral/diacritical symptoms/tropes are of great importance - and >> thexe often subvert or disturb and apprent transparency of the surface). >> Years ago I wrote a paper that was used in a course on deconstruction (not >> mine); it was on the difference between the Sheffer stroke (not both A and >> B) and its dual (neither A nor B) in terms of the history of the shapes of >> the symbols in relation to psychoanalytical concerns (feminism, the >> phallic, expulsion, etc.). So there's first of all the simple logic >> involved, and second, its actual process of construction, its history, and >> so forth. The 'subversion' - such as it might be considered - is in using >> the (logical) formation to consider issues of origination, the >> 'primordial,' gender, etc., from the standpoint of this 'veering.' >> >> Deconstruction also references the metaphysics underlying a text - not in >> the sense again of _sub_ text - but underlying in the sense of implicit >> within it, incoherent within it, the slight edge that tends elsewhere, that >> threatens to overturn the text. (Again, years ago I did a Kristevan >> analysis of the '10 commandments' (in the Hebrew) along these lines.) So >> that what might seem a barrier, is open, and what is open, might seem a >> barrier, the gate which isn't a gate (yes, there's a relation to Zen I >> think). >> >> All of that said, it's difficult to pin the process down - since it's >> neither process or product; I think of it, like glas, as a discourse which >> has always already continued and continues to continue, a discourse of >> humans which undercuts conclusion, totality, absolute - but which >> nonetheless carries a very real political component, activist as well. >> >> - Alan >> >> >> ======================================================================= >> Work on YouTube, blog at http://nikuko.blogspot.com . Tel 718-813-3285. >> Webpage directory http://www.asondheim.org . Email: sondheim@panix.com. >> http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim for theory; also check >> WVU Zwiki, Google for recent. Write for info on books, cds, performance, >> dvds, etc. ============================================================= > > ======================================================================= Work on YouTube, blog at http://nikuko.blogspot.com . Tel 718-813-3285. Webpage directory http://www.asondheim.org . Email: sondheim@panix.com. http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim for theory; also check WVU Zwiki, Google for recent. Write for info on books, cds, performance, dvds, etc. ============================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 22:48:29 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Don Summerhayes Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry In-Reply-To: <45C69CD7.4040706@myuw.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is it really possible that a group of intelligent poets can be so dumb about deconstruction when they use its understanding of text every day? On 4-Feb-07, at 6:56 PM, Jason Quackenbush wrote: > i disagree with such > obvious obfuscations > intended to add mystique > in place of clarity. > > jcu wrote: >> deconstuction is not a method >> or a formula, but just a habit >> of mind, a way of thinking >> that attends to what gets >> left out >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason Quackenbush" >> To: >> Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 4:23 AM >> Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry >>> i probably should have said methods, but that's splitting hairs. >>> too many useless idiots have made careers out of the kind of >>> obtuse nonsense you quote from Jacque D below. the method(s) of >>> deconstruction is/are straightforward and more or less >>> uninteresting. >>> >>> put simply, to deconstruct, one must >>> >>> 1.) pick a text >>> 2.) identify one or more implications of the text >>> 3.) generate a number of bad puns using techniques usually drawn >>> from etymology, linguistics, and semiotics >>> 4.) use those puns as support for a thesis that runs counter to >>> or in some way subverts the implications you have identified in >>> the text. >>> >>> It's really not all that complex, and there's more than one way >>> to flay that particular feline, and as a result I'm often quite >>> surprised that there's so much mystique surrounding the idea. >>> Even if it were a valid way to go about constructing an argument, >>> i don't know that it's actually useful in saying anything about >>> the original text or its author. Moreover, criticism employing >>> such methods is usually so badly written (see, eg, Dissemination, >>> the rhetoric of romanticism, or laugh of the medusa) that it's >>> often impossible to give it the value of simply being fun to >>> read, which, for example, one can find in similarly goofy ideas >>> propagated by other schools of thought like the medieval >>> scholastics, the ancient neo-platonists, or some of derrida's >>> more entertaining, non-deconstructionist peers like Gilles >>> Deleuze or ones who are simply better philosophers like Foucault >>> or Zizek who are good reads for the quality of argument even >>> though they're wrong about almost everything. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Aldon Nielsen wrote: >>> >>>> and just what would the "method" of deconstruction be? and >>>> supposing that there were a "deconstructionist," how would such >>>> a person go about this representing? >>>> >>>> "There is no one, single deconstruction. Were there only one, >>>> were it homogeneous, it would not be inherently either >>>> conservative or revolutionary, or determinable within the code >>>> of such oppositions. That is precisely what gets on everyone's >>>> nerves." >>>> >>>> "'deconstruction is firstly this destabilization on the move in, >>>> if one could speak thus, 'the things themselves'; but it is not >>>> negative." >>>> >>>> "what it does is less to disturb them than to bring into the >>>> open that which is disturbing them and menacing their >>>> consistency, their order, their pertinence. " >>>> >>>> "I do not know . . . to which 'deconstructionists' you are >>>> alluding." >>>> >>>> Derrida in conversation -- LIMITED INC >>>> >>>> At 10:54 PM 2/1/2007, you wrote: >>>> >>>>> Sure there's a deconstructionist theory. it's the theory that >>>>> the method of deconstruction produces valuable outcomes when >>>>> applied to texts. >>>>> >>>>> and i thought he meant "representing" deconstruction in the >>>>> sense that LL Cool J can be said to be "representing" Queens. >>>>> >>>>> ALDON L NIELSEN wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> there isn't really a "deconstructionist" theory -- >>>>>> and it's profoundly odd to think of deconstruction as a theory >>>>>> that a poet would then "represent." >>>>>> Still, if you're really interested in deconstruciton and >>>>>> poetry, a good place to look would be in Derrida's essays on >>>>>> Jabes and Ponge -- >>>>>> On Thu, 01 Feb 2007 19:21:16 -0800 UB Poetics discussion group >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> michel deguy comes to mind. >>>>>> ric carfagna wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Who are the poets who best represent deconstructionist theory? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> We are enslaved by >>>>>> what makes us free -- intolerable >>>>>> paradox at the heart of speech. >>>>>> --Robert Kelly >>>>>> Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ >>>>>> Aldon L. Nielsen >>>>>> Kelly Professor of American Literature >>>>>> The Pennsylvania State University >>>>>> 116 Burrowes >>>>>> University Park, PA 16802-6200 >>>>>> (814) 865-0091 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>> "I stand corrected, like a bishop of the obvious." >>>> --Robert Kelly >>>> >>>> >>>> Aldon Lynn Nielsen >>>> George and Barbara Kelly Professor of American Literature >>>> Department of English >>>> The Pennsylvania State University >>>> 112 Burrowes >>>> University Park, PA 16802-6200 >>>> >>>> (814) 865-0091 [office] >>>> >>>> (814) 863-7285 [Fax] >>>> >>>> Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ >>> >>> ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 22:21:55 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: thom donovan Subject: )))((( WILD HORSES OF FIRE )))((( CRITICAL OBJECTS )))((( In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Wild Horses Of Fire weblog now has a links page in the right column to critical writing/remark from the blog ("Critical Objects") and soon will have links to friends, colleagues & kindred spirits. It has unfortunately taken me THIS long to sort the techne out (ug!), but perhaps this organizational revolution will make the blog a little easier to navigate for any interested... Thom Donovan 166 Avenue A NY, NY 10009 whof.blogspot.com ____________________________________________________________________________________ Have a burning question? Go to www.Answers.yahoo.com and get answers from real people who know. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 05:40:44 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Dylan Welch Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, I've found that being a Haiku Cop is tiring -- and surely also tiresome to the perps (who may or may not give a hoot). However, I remain buoyed by those who are grateful to learn something because, so they say, they hadn't had a clue before, despite blissfully writing perfect 5-7-5 tripe. In any event, I'm mostly interested in why haiku is so WIDELY mistaught in North America, leading to the popular perception (among the general populace, as well as serious poets, even though they should know better) that haiku is simply (and maybe only) a poem in a pattern of 5-7-5 syllables. Sometimes folks are told a little bit more, but usually it's still highly superficial and frequently misguided by the 5-7-5 misunderstanding. So rather than "policing" the genre, I'm more interested in correcting the idiocy of outdated textbooks and curriculum guides that perpetuate misunderstands and harmful oversimplifications of the genre, in both Japanese and English. But it's so hard to change the course of these behemoth ocean-liners. Despite my advocacy for a more informed understanding of haiku, I recognize that "pseudo-haiku" can still be a lot of fun. I've also tried writing some myself, and it can be quite a challenge (not merely the 5-7-5 gimmick, but crafting the poem for other specific purposes). (For a friend's online comic strip, I've written a long series of "bad" haiku that are spoken by a green goblin. Nothing to do with literary haiku, and quite a challenge to write, but they're all perfectly 5-7-5.) But the key thing is that this shallow and misguided perception of haiku is ultimately detrimental to haiku as literature, insofar as they perpetuate misunderstandings. (In the comic, the goblin will probably be killed off because his haiku are so bad -- though of course I like to think that they're a "good" kind of bad, in the way that Bulwer-Lytton or "Bad Hemmingway" fiction contest winners are good.) Some folks have argued that sonnets are more maleable than the 14-line iambic pentameter that's the most common or traditional. I have no problem with that for sonnets. However, I am not offering the same defence of malleability in support of non-5-7-5 haiku. Rather, it was the wrong target in the first place, and exhibited the transfer of the *number* of something while paying no attention to what is being counted (they count sounds in Japanese, which are not always the same as English syllables -- or rather, most English syllables can vary a lot more than Japanese ones). So I'm NOT saying that haiku in English should avoid 5-7-5 simply because I think haiku should be malleable (the way some people think sonnets should be, or are). Rather, I'm saying that haiku has a number of aspects to it, and some of those aspects have been found to be essential, and translatable, across languages, including structure (two-part juxtaposition), seasonal reference, and so on. Form, however, is problematic. If you stick with the number, and pay no attention to the differences between languages, you end up with 17 syllables in English that says significantly more than a Japanese haiku does. It's for good reason that the great majority of contemporary translators and the vast majority of leading haiku poets do not employ the 5-7-5 pattern, but instead pay greater attention to other aspects of structure and content. Joe, I'll take a look at your ~Finger Exorcised~ on BlazeVOX very soon. And thanks, Charlie (Rossiter) for your comments. Charlie, in your mention of Lee Gurga, you meant to say that he edits *Modern Haiku* (you had said just *Haiku*). It is indeed the *Poetry* of the English-speaking haiku world (the journal was founded in 1969, and is the magazine of record for haiku in English, now edited, as you know, by Charles Trumbull). Visit _www.modernhaiku.org_ (http://www.modernhaiku.org) for more information, plus many sample essays and poems. In addition to Lee's fine book, I also recommend William J. Higginson's essential *The Haiku Handbook* (Kodansha, 1989), and Cor van den Heuvel's *The Haiku Anthology* (Norton, 1999), which includes work of mine. Michael In a message dated 04-Feb-07 9:03:09 PM Pacific Standard Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU writes: Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 09:33:59 -0600 From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match Michael, you're not going to get any argument from me about any of that, much of which I've come across in my own readings. I'm simply suggesting that policing a form that isn't, in the first place, native to English might (might) produce the unintended consequence of ascribing too rigorously to rather arbitrary, if historically motivated, formalities. Contrary to many who compose them, sonnets are not simply about counting syllables or lines either. Me, I'd rather use the 5-7-5 reflexively, for instance, to challenge the tendency of some who dabble in non-native forms to produce an orientalized English. Granted, there are other ways to do this, and doing this raises perhaps some vexing issues. (But see my recent ~Finger Exorcised~, on BlazeVOX, for a page of doubtless feeble attempts at related haiku humor. Hell, I even use the incorrect plural, "haikus," as a sort of dirty joke. [Sound it out -- in English.] But I still feel a few items there manage to use the constraint to good effect.) Oh -- but that must be (responding to another thread now, Michael, this isn't directed at you) -- the "deconstructionist" in me, as per the committee report that resulted in my second tenure denial. Anyway. The additional constraints you helpfully elaborate on are indeed more interesting than the syllable/line game. Best, Joe ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 07:41:57 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Today=?WINDOWS-1252?Q?=92s?= guest on Paul Alan's WORDSALAD: mIEKA L aND Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Now playing on WSUM / UW-Madison Student Radio Today=92s guest on Paul Alan's WORDSALAD: mIEKAL aND I was happy to have in the studio today mIEKAL aND, whose work I=92ve =20= known about for a long time. mIEKAL publishes Xexoxial Editions and =20 Joglars Crossmedia Beliefware, writes poetry and prose, and composes =20 and performs music. We spoke about epic poems, spam poetry, visual =20 poetry, and the Mail Art movement, among other things. http://wordsalad.wordpress.com/ Here's a link to the audio archive. This link will only be good for =20 a couple weeks: =95 Length: 61:31 minutes (56.32 MB) =95 Format: MP3 Stereo 44kHz 128Kbps (CBR) http://buzz.wsum.wisc.edu:8000/?q=3Dnode/1771 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 09:02:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Chapman Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hey Alan, that sounds really interesting: "Sheffer stroke (not both A and B) and its dual (neither A nor B) in terms of the history of the shapes of the symbols in relation to psychoanalytical concerns (feminism, the phallic, expulsion, etc.)." How did you parse out the embedded 'or' and its negations? These two choices look identical (which is why you mention the significance of 'always already'.) Second glance shows a countermotion: one towards grouping ('not both') and the other towards distribution (neither/nor). ... I find Derrida's writing to be a rich reserve of information from which a 'routine' has been lately abstracted. For example, essays in *Writing and Difference* teach us something about Raymond Rousset's 'ultrastructuralist' imagination and how this affected his criticism of Corneille. "Force and Signification" is, on this level, a thematic reading of Rousset's "Form and Signification". "Violence and Metaphysics" is a philosophical biography of Emmanuel Levinas as he grapples with Husserl and Heidegger. We learn something about *Totality and Infinity*. These basic stories get lost in the drift. Chris Chris Quoting Alan Sondheim : > I'm not sure that this will go through. > > Anyway, deconstruction is not a method or a means of locating subtexts; it > relates on one hand to new criticism (in the sense that it treats the text > as a messy entirety) and on the other to cultural studies (in the sense > that peripheral/diacritical symptoms/tropes are of great importance - and > thexe often subvert or disturb and apprent transparency of the surface). > Years ago I wrote a paper that was used in a course on deconstruction (not > mine); it was on the difference between the Sheffer stroke (not both A and > B) and its dual (neither A nor B) in terms of the history of the shapes of > the symbols in relation to psychoanalytical concerns (feminism, the > phallic, expulsion, etc.). So there's first of all the simple logic > involved, and second, its actual process of construction, its history, and > so forth. The 'subversion' - such as it might be considered - is in using > the (logical) formation to consider issues of origination, the > 'primordial,' gender, etc., from the standpoint of this 'veering.' > > Deconstruction also references the metaphysics underlying a text - not in > the sense again of _sub_ text - but underlying in the sense of implicit > within it, incoherent within it, the slight edge that tends elsewhere, > that threatens to overturn the text. (Again, years ago I did a Kristevan > analysis of the '10 commandments' (in the Hebrew) along these lines.) So > that what might seem a barrier, is open, and what is open, might seem a > barrier, the gate which isn't a gate (yes, there's a relation to Zen I > think). > > All of that said, it's difficult to pin the process down - since it's > neither process or product; I think of it, like glas, as a discourse which > has always already continued and continues to continue, a discourse of > humans which undercuts conclusion, totality, absolute - but which > nonetheless carries a very real political component, activist as well. > > - Alan > > > ======================================================================= > Work on YouTube, blog at http://nikuko.blogspot.com . Tel 718-813-3285. > Webpage directory http://www.asondheim.org . Email: sondheim@panix.com. > http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim for theory; also check > WVU Zwiki, Google for recent. Write for info on books, cds, performance, > dvds, etc. ============================================================= > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 10:04:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Kelleher MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable LITERARY BUFFALO 2.5.07-2.11.07 LITERARY BUFFALO IN THE NEWS: GEORGE SAUNDERS AT CANISIUS IN THE BUFFALO NEWS: http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20070204/1070348.asp REVIEW OF ELLIS AVERY IN ARTVOICE (this Thursday, 2.8.07): http://www.artvoice.com THE BIG READ ON TV: Watch =22P.M. Buffalo=22 on Friday, 2.9.07 at 4 p.m. on Channel 7 to see Mi= chael Kelleher and Alexis De Veaux discuss Zora Neale Hurston and The Big R= ead, Just Buffalo's month-long civic reading project sponsored by the Natio= nal Endowment for the Arts. READINGS THIS WEEK 2.8.07 Canisius College Contemporary Writers Series Presents: George Saunders Fiction Reading Thursday, February 8, 7 p.m. Montante Cultural Center, Canisius College, Free http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20070204/1070348.asp George Saunders was born and raised in Chicago. He earned a B.S. in Geophys= ical Engineering from the Colorado School of Mines and an M.F.A. in creativ= e writing from Syracuse University. He is the author of three collections o= f short fiction: CivilWarLand in Bad Decline, a finalist for the PEN/Heming= way Award for First Fiction in 1997; Pastoralia, a New York Times Notable B= ook for 2000; and the recently published In Persuasion Nation. He has also = published a children's book, The Very Persistent Gappers of Frip, and a nov= ella, The Brief and Frightening Reign of Phil. His work has appeared in num= erous magazines, including The New Yorker, Harper's, Kenyon Review and Esqu= ire, and received several awards, including the National Magazine Award for= Fiction and the O. Henry Award. Saunders currently teaches creative writin= g at Syracuse University. 2.9.07 Poetics Plus at UB Presents: New Orleans Reunion: Camille Martin and Bill Lavender Poetry Reading Friday, February 9, 8 p.m. Big Orbit Gallery, 30d Essex St. 2.9 & 2.10.07 Just Buffalo/Tru-Teas/Rooftop Poetry Club at Buffalo State Present: Ellis Avery -- 2 Events Reading, Friday, February 9 6:30 p.m. Buffalo State College, Butler Library, Room 210 And Tea Ceremony, reading, signing for: The Teahouse Fire Saturday, February 10, 7 p.m. Tru-Teas, 810 Elmwood Avenue, Buffalo10 Elmwood Avenue Look for a review of Ellis Avery's novel, The Teahouse Fire in Thursday's A= rtvoice. 2.11.07 Burchfield-Penney Poets and Writers Series Presents: Joanna Fisher and Mark Hammer Poetry Reading Sunday, February 11, 2 p.m. Burchfield-Penney Art Center, Rockwell Hall, Buffalo State RECURRING LITERARY EVENTS JUST BUFFALO WRITER'S CRITIQUE GROUP Members of Just Buffalo are welcome to attend a free, bi-monthly writer cri= tique group in CEPA's Flux Gallery on the first floor of the historic Marke= t Arcade Building across the street from Shea's. Group meets 1st and 3rd We= dnesday at 7 p.m. Call Just Buffalo for details. JUST BUFFALO TIMED WRITING GROUP A writing practice group meets every FRIDAY at noon at Starbucks Coffee on = Elmwood and Chippewa. Writing practice is based on Natalie Goldberg's sugge= sted exercises in Writing Down The Bones. Writers in all genres, fiction an= d non-fiction welcome. There is no charge. Contact Trudy for info: Trudett= a=40aol.com. WESTERN NEW YORK ROMANCE WRITERS group meets the third Wednesday of every m= onth at St. Joseph Hospital community room at 11a.m. Address: 2605 Harlem R= oad, Cheektowaga, NY 14225. For details go to www.wnyrw.org. JUST BUFFALO MEMBERSHIP RAFFLE Visit the literary city of your dreams: -Joyce's Dublin -Paris' Left Bank -Dante's Florence -Shakespeare's London -Harlem Renaissance NYC -The Beats' San Francisco -Anywhere Continental flies.* Now through May 10, 2007 your membership support of Just Buffalo Literary C= enter includes the chance to win the literary trip of a lifetime: Package (valued at =245,000) includes: -Two round-trip tickets to one of the great literary cities on Continental = Airlines -=241500 towards hotel and accommodations -=24500 in spending money One ticket (=2435) =3D Just Buffalo Individual Membership Two tickets (=2460) =3D Just Buffalo Family Membership Three tickets (=24100) =3D Just Buffalo Friend Membership Purchase as many memberships as you like. Give them to whomever you choose = as a gift (or give someone else the membership and keep the lottery ticket = to yourself=21). Only 1000 chances will be sold. Raffle tickets with Just B= uffalo membership make great gifts=21 Drawing will be held the second week = of May, 2007. Call 716.832.5400 for more info. * Raffle ticket purchases are not tax-deductible. If you want your membersh= ip to put you in the =22literary trip of a lifetime=22 raffle, please write= =22raffle membership=22 in the =22payment for=22 cell on the Paypal form. = You will automatically be entered in the raffle, but your membership will n= ot be tax-deductible. If you prefer not to be in the raffle and want tax-de= ductible status, then please write =22non-raffle member=22 in the =22paymen= t for=22 cell. JOIN JUST BUFFALO ONLINE=21=21=21 If you would like to join Just Buffalo, or simply make a massive personal d= onation, you can do so online using your credit card. We have recently add= ed the ability to join online by paying with a credit card through PayPal. = Simply click on the membership level at which you would like to join, log = in (or create a PayPal account using your Visa/Amex/Mastercard/Discover), a= nd voil=E1, you will find yourself in literary heaven. For more info, or t= o join now, go to our website: http://www.justbuffalo.org/membership/index.shtml UNSUBSCRIBE If you would like to unsubscribe from this list, just say so and you will b= e immediately removed. _______________________________ Michael Kelleher Artistic Director Just Buffalo Literary Center Market Arcade 617 Main St., Ste. 202A Buffalo, NY 14203 716.832.5400 716.270.0184 (fax) www.justbuffalo.org mjk=40justbuffalo.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 10:57:14 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ann Bogle Subject: Re: Today=?WINDOWS-1252?Q?=92s?= guest on Paul Alan's WORDSALAD: mIEKA L aND MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/5/2007 7:44:00 A.M. Central Standard Time, dtv@MWT.NET writes: the Mail Art movement btw, Hopkins Art Center in Hopkins, MN has a show open now of mail art to Feb. 18. http://www.hopkinsmn.com/_hca/exhibitions.html. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 08:00:24 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Dickow Subject: rousseau and de man, sandy In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sandy, Thanks for the clarification. Sounds reasonable to me. And foax, pipe down, relax. Sheesh. Amicalement, Alex www.alexdickow.net/blog/ les mots! ah quel désert à la fin merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 08:15:05 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas savage Subject: Re: Chapbooks In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sisyphus Press just published a chapbook of stories by Bonnie Finberg. Ian Randall Wilson wrote: Are chapbooks just limited to poetry? Cervena Barva, a small press in Boston, is trying experiments with "chapbooks" in fiction, too. They just published one of mine called Out of the Arcadian Ghetto. _http://www.cervenabarvapress.com/_ (http://www.cervenabarvapress.com/) Ian Wilson --------------------------------- Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your question on Yahoo! Answers. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 11:26:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry Comments: To: Chris Chapman In-Reply-To: <1170684160.45c73901015c7@webmail.nd.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed I'm not sure this will go through. The two functions are duals of each other and both can be used as the 'basis' of propositional logic; in other words, everything in propositional logic can be derived from either of these. For example if you have | for "neither A nor B" then A|A is simply "not A" and this also holds for "not both A and B." And yes, grouping and distribution; they're both "kinds" of expulsion - A|B simply implies either the null set or "anywhere but here - elsewhere" - depending on whether A and B are complements, and "not both A and B" implies both possibly elsewhere and that "veering" - one or the other possibly, or neither, anything but the intersection. I haven't thought of Derrida in terms of narrative - can you say more about this? Thanks, Alan On Mon, 5 Feb 2007, Chris Chapman wrote: > Hey Alan, that sounds really interesting: > > "Sheffer stroke (not both A and > B) and its dual (neither A nor B) in terms of the history of the shapes of > the symbols in relation to psychoanalytical concerns (feminism, the > phallic, expulsion, etc.)." > > > How did you parse out the embedded 'or' and its negations? These two choices > look identical (which is why you mention the significance of 'always already'.) > > Second glance shows a countermotion: one towards grouping ('not both') and the > other towards distribution (neither/nor). > > ... > > > I find Derrida's writing to be a rich reserve of information from which a > 'routine' has been lately abstracted. For example, essays in *Writing and > Difference* teach us something about Raymond Rousset's 'ultrastructuralist' > imagination and how this affected his criticism of Corneille. "Force and > Signification" is, on this level, a thematic reading of Rousset's "Form and > Signification". "Violence and Metaphysics" is a philosophical biography of > Emmanuel Levinas as he grapples with Husserl and Heidegger. We learn something > about *Totality and Infinity*. These basic stories get lost in the drift. > > Chris > Chris > > > > > > > Quoting Alan Sondheim : > >> I'm not sure that this will go through. >> >> Anyway, deconstruction is not a method or a means of locating subtexts; it >> relates on one hand to new criticism (in the sense that it treats the text >> as a messy entirety) and on the other to cultural studies (in the sense >> that peripheral/diacritical symptoms/tropes are of great importance - and >> thexe often subvert or disturb and apprent transparency of the surface). >> Years ago I wrote a paper that was used in a course on deconstruction (not >> mine); it was on the difference between the Sheffer stroke (not both A and >> B) and its dual (neither A nor B) in terms of the history of the shapes of >> the symbols in relation to psychoanalytical concerns (feminism, the >> phallic, expulsion, etc.). So there's first of all the simple logic >> involved, and second, its actual process of construction, its history, and >> so forth. The 'subversion' - such as it might be considered - is in using >> the (logical) formation to consider issues of origination, the >> 'primordial,' gender, etc., from the standpoint of this 'veering.' >> >> Deconstruction also references the metaphysics underlying a text - not in >> the sense again of _sub_ text - but underlying in the sense of implicit >> within it, incoherent within it, the slight edge that tends elsewhere, >> that threatens to overturn the text. (Again, years ago I did a Kristevan >> analysis of the '10 commandments' (in the Hebrew) along these lines.) So >> that what might seem a barrier, is open, and what is open, might seem a >> barrier, the gate which isn't a gate (yes, there's a relation to Zen I >> think). >> >> All of that said, it's difficult to pin the process down - since it's >> neither process or product; I think of it, like glas, as a discourse which >> has always already continued and continues to continue, a discourse of >> humans which undercuts conclusion, totality, absolute - but which >> nonetheless carries a very real political component, activist as well. >> >> - Alan >> >> >> ======================================================================= >> Work on YouTube, blog at http://nikuko.blogspot.com . Tel 718-813-3285. >> Webpage directory http://www.asondheim.org . Email: sondheim@panix.com. >> http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim for theory; also check >> WVU Zwiki, Google for recent. Write for info on books, cds, performance, >> dvds, etc. ============================================================= >> > > ======================================================================= Work on YouTube, blog at http://nikuko.blogspot.com . Tel 718-813-3285. Webpage directory http://www.asondheim.org . Email: sondheim@panix.com. http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim for theory; also check WVU Zwiki, Google for recent. Write for info on books, cds, performance, dvds, etc. ============================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 08:27:31 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Harrison Horton Subject: Re: Chapbooks Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 The Socialist "Little Blue Books" of the 20s and 30s were mainly prose work= s and fiction. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_g1epc/is_tov/ai_2419100725 David Harrison Horton=20 unionherald.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------- > Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 08:15:05 -0800 > From: tsavagebar@YAHOO.COM > Subject: Re: Chapbooks > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >=20 > Sisyphus Press just published a chapbook of stories by Bonnie Finberg. >=20 > Ian Randall Wilson wrote: Are chapbooks just limited to poetry? Cervena= Barva, a small press in=20 > Boston, is trying experiments with "chapbooks" in fiction, too. They just= =20 > published one of mine called Out of the Arcadian Ghetto. >=20 > _http://www.cervenabarvapress.com/_ (http://www.cervenabarvapress.com/)=20 >=20 >=20 > Ian Wilson >=20 >=20 > =20 > --------------------------------- > Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your qu= estion on Yahoo! Answers. _________________________________________________________________ Get connected - Use your Hotmail address to sign into Windows Live Messenge= r now.=20 http://get.live.com/messenger/overview= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 08:32:40 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas savage Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry In-Reply-To: <94644752-4FB4-4820-A408-D5B97E2EDA3A@yorku.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Many years ago I read a book about the subject under discussion in these posts called "Deconstruction." I forget who the author was but it wasn't Derrida. I came away from this book with the feeling that "Deconstruction" (the idea, process, or concept, not the book), was just a fancy way for saying "to take something apart . When I said in a previous post that I'd read a lot of poetry influenced by deconstruction, it was to that aspect of it or to my impression of it that I referred. I also tend to associate it with Language Poetry or poetry influenced by the Language group. Regards, Tom Savage Don Summerhayes wrote: Is it really possible that a group of intelligent poets can be so dumb about deconstruction when they use its understanding of text every day? On 4-Feb-07, at 6:56 PM, Jason Quackenbush wrote: > i disagree with such > obvious obfuscations > intended to add mystique > in place of clarity. > > jcu wrote: >> deconstuction is not a method >> or a formula, but just a habit >> of mind, a way of thinking >> that attends to what gets >> left out >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason Quackenbush" >> To: >> Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 4:23 AM >> Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry >>> i probably should have said methods, but that's splitting hairs. >>> too many useless idiots have made careers out of the kind of >>> obtuse nonsense you quote from Jacque D below. the method(s) of >>> deconstruction is/are straightforward and more or less >>> uninteresting. >>> >>> put simply, to deconstruct, one must >>> >>> 1.) pick a text >>> 2.) identify one or more implications of the text >>> 3.) generate a number of bad puns using techniques usually drawn >>> from etymology, linguistics, and semiotics >>> 4.) use those puns as support for a thesis that runs counter to >>> or in some way subverts the implications you have identified in >>> the text. >>> >>> It's really not all that complex, and there's more than one way >>> to flay that particular feline, and as a result I'm often quite >>> surprised that there's so much mystique surrounding the idea. >>> Even if it were a valid way to go about constructing an argument, >>> i don't know that it's actually useful in saying anything about >>> the original text or its author. Moreover, criticism employing >>> such methods is usually so badly written (see, eg, Dissemination, >>> the rhetoric of romanticism, or laugh of the medusa) that it's >>> often impossible to give it the value of simply being fun to >>> read, which, for example, one can find in similarly goofy ideas >>> propagated by other schools of thought like the medieval >>> scholastics, the ancient neo-platonists, or some of derrida's >>> more entertaining, non-deconstructionist peers like Gilles >>> Deleuze or ones who are simply better philosophers like Foucault >>> or Zizek who are good reads for the quality of argument even >>> though they're wrong about almost everything. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Aldon Nielsen wrote: >>> >>>> and just what would the "method" of deconstruction be? and >>>> supposing that there were a "deconstructionist," how would such >>>> a person go about this representing? >>>> >>>> "There is no one, single deconstruction. Were there only one, >>>> were it homogeneous, it would not be inherently either >>>> conservative or revolutionary, or determinable within the code >>>> of such oppositions. That is precisely what gets on everyone's >>>> nerves." >>>> >>>> "'deconstruction is firstly this destabilization on the move in, >>>> if one could speak thus, 'the things themselves'; but it is not >>>> negative." >>>> >>>> "what it does is less to disturb them than to bring into the >>>> open that which is disturbing them and menacing their >>>> consistency, their order, their pertinence. " >>>> >>>> "I do not know . . . to which 'deconstructionists' you are >>>> alluding." >>>> >>>> Derrida in conversation -- LIMITED INC >>>> >>>> At 10:54 PM 2/1/2007, you wrote: >>>> >>>>> Sure there's a deconstructionist theory. it's the theory that >>>>> the method of deconstruction produces valuable outcomes when >>>>> applied to texts. >>>>> >>>>> and i thought he meant "representing" deconstruction in the >>>>> sense that LL Cool J can be said to be "representing" Queens. >>>>> >>>>> ALDON L NIELSEN wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> there isn't really a "deconstructionist" theory -- >>>>>> and it's profoundly odd to think of deconstruction as a theory >>>>>> that a poet would then "represent." >>>>>> Still, if you're really interested in deconstruciton and >>>>>> poetry, a good place to look would be in Derrida's essays on >>>>>> Jabes and Ponge -- >>>>>> On Thu, 01 Feb 2007 19:21:16 -0800 UB Poetics discussion group >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> michel deguy comes to mind. >>>>>> ric carfagna wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Who are the poets who best represent deconstructionist theory? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> We are enslaved by >>>>>> what makes us free -- intolerable >>>>>> paradox at the heart of speech. >>>>>> --Robert Kelly >>>>>> Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ >>>>>> Aldon L. Nielsen >>>>>> Kelly Professor of American Literature >>>>>> The Pennsylvania State University >>>>>> 116 Burrowes >>>>>> University Park, PA 16802-6200 >>>>>> (814) 865-0091 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>> "I stand corrected, like a bishop of the obvious." >>>> --Robert Kelly >>>> >>>> >>>> Aldon Lynn Nielsen >>>> George and Barbara Kelly Professor of American Literature >>>> Department of English >>>> The Pennsylvania State University >>>> 112 Burrowes >>>> University Park, PA 16802-6200 >>>> >>>> (814) 865-0091 [office] >>>> >>>> (814) 863-7285 [Fax] >>>> >>>> Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ >>> >>> --------------------------------- Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 11:34:50 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ann Bogle Subject: Audience & publishing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Last year, there was a good thread among poets about the difference for them in publishing in online v. print publications. Mostly, the biggest difference was that in print publication, more attention was paid to precision in line breaks, layout, and font -- that was their overall experience. Now I want to ask how writers and poets feel about self-publishing when they encounter it and at their own websites v. publishing in online publications. It seems sometimes such a small psychological difference in transitting between the wr iter's own website v. an official publication. What is the bias that suggests that people who edit other writers' work are somehow stoic for doing so but that writers (most editors are both) are somehow vainglorious for going into print? Sometimes I would like to know if it is true -- sometimes it IS true -- that the editors of online publications have more editorial acuity than the writers do themselves, or if it's a "hands" argument -- having someone select you and do it for you by definition carries more weight and prestige. It is the same argument, in smaller and subtler form, inherent in the favoritism shown for large houses. In general, it is taking time (as should be expected) for online publications to gain the acclaim of print publications -- even though smaller print publications are invariably hard to find and therefore are restricted to small library audiences of 2,000 or fewer readers. Weblogs are usually female (like the Buckthorn in botany), and so therefore are deemed "low" as art goes. I find certain conversational weblogs to be pure and engrossing. I think they may be higher art than some people tend to realize, depending on their creator. It is an exciting way to cut out middle men and bullshit. It is a species of self-publishing. Topics weblogs are arguably valuable to more people. Other thoughts? Should it be harder to access online publications to increase the sensation that they are not self-published, that they have prestige? Should they be umbrella-listed at sites such as webdelsol? AMB ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 11:59:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Chapman Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry Comments: To: Alan Sondheim In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have to concentrate on Tocqueville but before I do: when I read your description of what neither A nor B means I think you're on the verge of switching logical categories from those that stem from forms of division into forms of equation - 'either/or' for 'if/then.' The vertical bar you use, "A/A", seems to bespeak a detachment within self-identity that had begun in disjunction. It's that connection that I find interesting, narcissistically and perhaps narratologically speaking. I'm thinking about how to answer that more fully. Chris (Please show me where I've been especially obtuse with your demonstration.) Quoting Alan Sondheim : > > > I'm not sure this will go through. The two functions are duals of each > other and both can be used as the 'basis' of propositional logic; in other > words, everything in propositional logic can be derived from either of > these. For example if you have | for "neither A nor B" then A|A is simply > "not A" and this also holds for "not both A and B." > > And yes, grouping and distribution; they're both "kinds" of expulsion - > A|B simply implies either the null set or "anywhere but here - elsewhere" > - depending on whether A and B are complements, and "not both A and B" > implies both possibly elsewhere and that "veering" - one or the other > possibly, or neither, anything but the intersection. > > I haven't thought of Derrida in terms of narrative - can you say more > about this? > > Thanks, Alan > > > On Mon, 5 Feb 2007, Chris Chapman wrote: > > > Hey Alan, that sounds really interesting: > > > > "Sheffer stroke (not both A and > > B) and its dual (neither A nor B) in terms of the history of the shapes of > > the symbols in relation to psychoanalytical concerns (feminism, the > > phallic, expulsion, etc.)." > > > > > > How did you parse out the embedded 'or' and its negations? These two > choices > > look identical (which is why you mention the significance of 'always > already'.) > > > > Second glance shows a countermotion: one towards grouping ('not both') and > the > > other towards distribution (neither/nor). > > > > ... > > > > > > I find Derrida's writing to be a rich reserve of information from which a > > 'routine' has been lately abstracted. For example, essays in *Writing and > > Difference* teach us something about Raymond Rousset's 'ultrastructuralist' > > imagination and how this affected his criticism of Corneille. "Force and > > Signification" is, on this level, a thematic reading of Rousset's "Form and > > Signification". "Violence and Metaphysics" is a philosophical biography of > > Emmanuel Levinas as he grapples with Husserl and Heidegger. We learn > something > > about *Totality and Infinity*. These basic stories get lost in the drift. > > > > Chris > > Chris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quoting Alan Sondheim : > > > >> I'm not sure that this will go through. > >> > >> Anyway, deconstruction is not a method or a means of locating subtexts; it > >> relates on one hand to new criticism (in the sense that it treats the text > >> as a messy entirety) and on the other to cultural studies (in the sense > >> that peripheral/diacritical symptoms/tropes are of great importance - and > >> thexe often subvert or disturb and apprent transparency of the surface). > >> Years ago I wrote a paper that was used in a course on deconstruction (not > >> mine); it was on the difference between the Sheffer stroke (not both A and > >> B) and its dual (neither A nor B) in terms of the history of the shapes of > >> the symbols in relation to psychoanalytical concerns (feminism, the > >> phallic, expulsion, etc.). So there's first of all the simple logic > >> involved, and second, its actual process of construction, its history, and > >> so forth. The 'subversion' - such as it might be considered - is in using > >> the (logical) formation to consider issues of origination, the > >> 'primordial,' gender, etc., from the standpoint of this 'veering.' > >> > >> Deconstruction also references the metaphysics underlying a text - not in > >> the sense again of _sub_ text - but underlying in the sense of implicit > >> within it, incoherent within it, the slight edge that tends elsewhere, > >> that threatens to overturn the text. (Again, years ago I did a Kristevan > >> analysis of the '10 commandments' (in the Hebrew) along these lines.) So > >> that what might seem a barrier, is open, and what is open, might seem a > >> barrier, the gate which isn't a gate (yes, there's a relation to Zen I > >> think). > >> > >> All of that said, it's difficult to pin the process down - since it's > >> neither process or product; I think of it, like glas, as a discourse which > >> has always already continued and continues to continue, a discourse of > >> humans which undercuts conclusion, totality, absolute - but which > >> nonetheless carries a very real political component, activist as well. > >> > >> - Alan > >> > >> > >> ======================================================================= > >> Work on YouTube, blog at http://nikuko.blogspot.com . Tel 718-813-3285. > >> Webpage directory http://www.asondheim.org . Email: sondheim@panix.com. > >> http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim for theory; also check > >> WVU Zwiki, Google for recent. Write for info on books, cds, performance, > >> dvds, etc. ============================================================= > >> > > > > > > > ======================================================================= > Work on YouTube, blog at http://nikuko.blogspot.com . Tel 718-813-3285. > Webpage directory http://www.asondheim.org . Email: sondheim@panix.com. > http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim for theory; also check > WVU Zwiki, Google for recent. Write for info on books, cds, performance, > dvds, etc. ============================================================= > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 17:18:10 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry In-Reply-To: <354377.40771.qm@web31101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit An excellent way in to a lot of these questions about what deconstruction is, and what it has to do with literature, would be through an essay by Rodolphe Gasche, "Deconstruction as Criticism," published in Glyph 6: Johns Hopkins Textual Studies (1979): 177-215. (Gasche has also written a couple of books about Derrida, but I haven't read them. His more recent book on Kant's aesthetics is really hard going but worth the effort for anyone interested in the topic.) Thomas savage wrote: Many years ago I read a book about the subject under discussion in these posts called "Deconstruction." I forget who the author was but it wasn't Derrida. I came away from this book with the feeling that "Deconstruction" (the idea, process, or concept, not the book), was just a fancy way for saying "to take something apart . When I said in a previous post that I'd read a lot of poetry influenced by deconstruction, it was to that aspect of it or to my impression of it that I referred. I also tend to associate it with Language Poetry or poetry influenced by the Language group. Regards, Tom Savage Don Summerhayes wrote: Is it really possible that a group of intelligent poets can be so dumb about deconstruction when they use its understanding of text every day? On 4-Feb-07, at 6:56 PM, Jason Quackenbush wrote: > i disagree with such > obvious obfuscations > intended to add mystique > in place of clarity. > > jcu wrote: >> deconstuction is not a method >> or a formula, but just a habit >> of mind, a way of thinking >> that attends to what gets >> left out >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason Quackenbush" >> To: >> Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 4:23 AM >> Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry >>> i probably should have said methods, but that's splitting hairs. >>> too many useless idiots have made careers out of the kind of >>> obtuse nonsense you quote from Jacque D below. the method(s) of >>> deconstruction is/are straightforward and more or less >>> uninteresting. >>> >>> put simply, to deconstruct, one must >>> >>> 1.) pick a text >>> 2.) identify one or more implications of the text >>> 3.) generate a number of bad puns using techniques usually drawn >>> from etymology, linguistics, and semiotics >>> 4.) use those puns as support for a thesis that runs counter to >>> or in some way subverts the implications you have identified in >>> the text. >>> >>> It's really not all that complex, and there's more than one way >>> to flay that particular feline, and as a result I'm often quite >>> surprised that there's so much mystique surrounding the idea. >>> Even if it were a valid way to go about constructing an argument, >>> i don't know that it's actually useful in saying anything about >>> the original text or its author. Moreover, criticism employing >>> such methods is usually so badly written (see, eg, Dissemination, >>> the rhetoric of romanticism, or laugh of the medusa) that it's >>> often impossible to give it the value of simply being fun to >>> read, which, for example, one can find in similarly goofy ideas >>> propagated by other schools of thought like the medieval >>> scholastics, the ancient neo-platonists, or some of derrida's >>> more entertaining, non-deconstructionist peers like Gilles >>> Deleuze or ones who are simply better philosophers like Foucault >>> or Zizek who are good reads for the quality of argument even >>> though they're wrong about almost everything. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Aldon Nielsen wrote: >>> >>>> and just what would the "method" of deconstruction be? and >>>> supposing that there were a "deconstructionist," how would such >>>> a person go about this representing? >>>> >>>> "There is no one, single deconstruction. Were there only one, >>>> were it homogeneous, it would not be inherently either >>>> conservative or revolutionary, or determinable within the code >>>> of such oppositions. That is precisely what gets on everyone's >>>> nerves." >>>> >>>> "'deconstruction is firstly this destabilization on the move in, >>>> if one could speak thus, 'the things themselves'; but it is not >>>> negative." >>>> >>>> "what it does is less to disturb them than to bring into the >>>> open that which is disturbing them and menacing their >>>> consistency, their order, their pertinence. " >>>> >>>> "I do not know . . . to which 'deconstructionists' you are >>>> alluding." >>>> >>>> Derrida in conversation -- LIMITED INC >>>> >>>> At 10:54 PM 2/1/2007, you wrote: >>>> >>>>> Sure there's a deconstructionist theory. it's the theory that >>>>> the method of deconstruction produces valuable outcomes when >>>>> applied to texts. >>>>> >>>>> and i thought he meant "representing" deconstruction in the >>>>> sense that LL Cool J can be said to be "representing" Queens. >>>>> >>>>> ALDON L NIELSEN wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> there isn't really a "deconstructionist" theory -- >>>>>> and it's profoundly odd to think of deconstruction as a theory >>>>>> that a poet would then "represent." >>>>>> Still, if you're really interested in deconstruciton and >>>>>> poetry, a good place to look would be in Derrida's essays on >>>>>> Jabes and Ponge -- >>>>>> On Thu, 01 Feb 2007 19:21:16 -0800 UB Poetics discussion group >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> michel deguy comes to mind. >>>>>> ric carfagna wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Who are the poets who best represent deconstructionist theory? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> We are enslaved by >>>>>> what makes us free -- intolerable >>>>>> paradox at the heart of speech. >>>>>> --Robert Kelly >>>>>> Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ >>>>>> Aldon L. Nielsen >>>>>> Kelly Professor of American Literature >>>>>> The Pennsylvania State University >>>>>> 116 Burrowes >>>>>> University Park, PA 16802-6200 >>>>>> (814) 865-0091 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>> "I stand corrected, like a bishop of the obvious." >>>> --Robert Kelly >>>> >>>> >>>> Aldon Lynn Nielsen >>>> George and Barbara Kelly Professor of American Literature >>>> Department of English >>>> The Pennsylvania State University >>>> 112 Burrowes >>>> University Park, PA 16802-6200 >>>> >>>> (814) 865-0091 [office] >>>> >>>> (814) 863-7285 [Fax] >>>> >>>> Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ >>> >>> --------------------------------- Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 12:23:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry In-Reply-To: <1170694777.45c76279a4f63@webmail.nd.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed I'm not sure about the "if/then" - that implies process; there's also the "if then else" formulation which works here - if A then not A^B else ?? - and process involves temporality; the "if" also seems itself to be on the verge or hinge. It might be the difference between temporality and a state-of-affairs, although both can be considered potentials.. I don't know if you're familiar with Spencer Brown's Laws of Form - he makes a similar jump between states-of-affairs and temporality (involving if I remember imaginary quantities) - which again I'm not sure of. But he starts I think by describing "making a distinction" which is already a process... - Alan On Mon, 5 Feb 2007, Chris Chapman wrote: > I have to concentrate on Tocqueville but before I do: > > when I read your description of what neither A nor B means I think you're on the > verge of switching logical categories from those that stem from forms of > division into forms of equation - 'either/or' for 'if/then.' The vertical bar > you use, "A/A", seems to bespeak a detachment within self-identity that had > begun in disjunction. > > It's that connection that I find interesting, narcissistically and perhaps > narratologically speaking. I'm thinking about how to answer that more fully. > > > > Chris > (Please show me where I've been especially obtuse with your demonstration.) > > Quoting Alan Sondheim : > >> >> >> I'm not sure this will go through. The two functions are duals of each >> other and both can be used as the 'basis' of propositional logic; in other >> words, everything in propositional logic can be derived from either of >> these. For example if you have | for "neither A nor B" then A|A is simply >> "not A" and this also holds for "not both A and B." >> >> And yes, grouping and distribution; they're both "kinds" of expulsion - >> A|B simply implies either the null set or "anywhere but here - elsewhere" >> - depending on whether A and B are complements, and "not both A and B" >> implies both possibly elsewhere and that "veering" - one or the other >> possibly, or neither, anything but the intersection. >> >> I haven't thought of Derrida in terms of narrative - can you say more >> about this? >> >> Thanks, Alan >> >> >> On Mon, 5 Feb 2007, Chris Chapman wrote: >> >>> Hey Alan, that sounds really interesting: >>> >>> "Sheffer stroke (not both A and >>> B) and its dual (neither A nor B) in terms of the history of the shapes of >>> the symbols in relation to psychoanalytical concerns (feminism, the >>> phallic, expulsion, etc.)." >>> >>> >>> How did you parse out the embedded 'or' and its negations? These two >> choices >>> look identical (which is why you mention the significance of 'always >> already'.) >>> >>> Second glance shows a countermotion: one towards grouping ('not both') and >> the >>> other towards distribution (neither/nor). >>> >>> ... >>> >>> >>> I find Derrida's writing to be a rich reserve of information from which a >>> 'routine' has been lately abstracted. For example, essays in *Writing and >>> Difference* teach us something about Raymond Rousset's 'ultrastructuralist' >>> imagination and how this affected his criticism of Corneille. "Force and >>> Signification" is, on this level, a thematic reading of Rousset's "Form and >>> Signification". "Violence and Metaphysics" is a philosophical biography of >>> Emmanuel Levinas as he grapples with Husserl and Heidegger. We learn >> something >>> about *Totality and Infinity*. These basic stories get lost in the drift. >>> >>> Chris >>> Chris >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Quoting Alan Sondheim : >>> >>>> I'm not sure that this will go through. >>>> >>>> Anyway, deconstruction is not a method or a means of locating subtexts; it >>>> relates on one hand to new criticism (in the sense that it treats the text >>>> as a messy entirety) and on the other to cultural studies (in the sense >>>> that peripheral/diacritical symptoms/tropes are of great importance - and >>>> thexe often subvert or disturb and apprent transparency of the surface). >>>> Years ago I wrote a paper that was used in a course on deconstruction (not >>>> mine); it was on the difference between the Sheffer stroke (not both A and >>>> B) and its dual (neither A nor B) in terms of the history of the shapes of >>>> the symbols in relation to psychoanalytical concerns (feminism, the >>>> phallic, expulsion, etc.). So there's first of all the simple logic >>>> involved, and second, its actual process of construction, its history, and >>>> so forth. The 'subversion' - such as it might be considered - is in using >>>> the (logical) formation to consider issues of origination, the >>>> 'primordial,' gender, etc., from the standpoint of this 'veering.' >>>> >>>> Deconstruction also references the metaphysics underlying a text - not in >>>> the sense again of _sub_ text - but underlying in the sense of implicit >>>> within it, incoherent within it, the slight edge that tends elsewhere, >>>> that threatens to overturn the text. (Again, years ago I did a Kristevan >>>> analysis of the '10 commandments' (in the Hebrew) along these lines.) So >>>> that what might seem a barrier, is open, and what is open, might seem a >>>> barrier, the gate which isn't a gate (yes, there's a relation to Zen I >>>> think). >>>> >>>> All of that said, it's difficult to pin the process down - since it's >>>> neither process or product; I think of it, like glas, as a discourse which >>>> has always already continued and continues to continue, a discourse of >>>> humans which undercuts conclusion, totality, absolute - but which >>>> nonetheless carries a very real political component, activist as well. >>>> >>>> - Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> ======================================================================= >>>> Work on YouTube, blog at http://nikuko.blogspot.com . Tel 718-813-3285. >>>> Webpage directory http://www.asondheim.org . Email: sondheim@panix.com. >>>> http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim for theory; also check >>>> WVU Zwiki, Google for recent. Write for info on books, cds, performance, >>>> dvds, etc. ============================================================= >>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> ======================================================================= >> Work on YouTube, blog at http://nikuko.blogspot.com . Tel 718-813-3285. >> Webpage directory http://www.asondheim.org . Email: sondheim@panix.com. >> http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim for theory; also check >> WVU Zwiki, Google for recent. Write for info on books, cds, performance, >> dvds, etc. ============================================================= >> >> > > ======================================================================= Work on YouTube, blog at http://nikuko.blogspot.com . Tel 718-813-3285. Webpage directory http://www.asondheim.org . Email: sondheim@panix.com. http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim for theory; also check WVU Zwiki, Google for recent. Write for info on books, cds, performance, dvds, etc. ============================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 07:31:41 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry In-Reply-To: <010b01c74713$182f6b20$4101a8c0@pc2b565f661721> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE i'm so glad someone is recognizing joyce's fundamental irishness. having lived in cork and donegal for years and hung out with musicians and shanakee (sorry, i know that's not the spelling), finnegans wake doesn't make sense any other way to me. and how about emily bronte's poetry? they were irish and cornish brought up in yorkshire! there's a combination for you...! gabrielle On Fri, 2 Feb 2007, Robin Hamilton wrote: > has anyone else in List-land tried reading Finnegans Wake with an Irish > accent? you pick up on a lot of buried information if you try this -- it > dawned on me reading one passage that "damn fairy ann" could be read as > "donc fait rien" -- then the whole page morphed into a kind of Joycean > French argot, before my eyes... and no, I was perfectly sober at the time= =2E > ... > tl > >> > > Joyce's words above would seem to play on the British squaddies' surded > French developed in WW1 -- "San fairy ann" for "=E7a ne fait rien". > > see: http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-san1.htm > > Robin Hamilton > gabrielle welford welford@hawaii.edu Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.595 / Virus Database: 378 - Release Date: 2/25/2004 wilhelm reich anarcho-syndicalism gut/heart/head/earth ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 13:11:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Re: Audience & publishing In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Ann I've self-published 7 poetry books, 3 novels and 3 recordings. Print publishers have published 2 books. POD publishers have published 2, with 2 more on the way. I like to think this gives me some knowledge of the subject, though the scenario is probably changing as we speak. In today's publishing climate, I have no choice but to be the publisher of last resort. As a self-publisher, my books don't sell very well, but I do have distribution channels for any orders that might come in. Every year I manage to sell a few copies to college libraries. My print books published by a small press found their way to college libraries regularly, probably because Potes & Poets was an established press and because whoever did the ordering could do a mass order of poetry books through SPD. MY POD books have appeared without any problems, probably because I do my own typesetting; I don't know anybody else who wants the job or could do it as well, unfortunately, it's probably cost me some publishing opportunities with some presses. The POD books don't make it to the college libraries or receive distribution beyond the site where they're sold, e.g., www.lulu.com or www.cafepress.com. The biggest problem we face continues to be distribution of our work. Some POD publishers, such as Geoffrey Gatza of BlazeVox, are finding ways to improve distribution so that people can find the books at Amazon.com, if not on the shelf at the local chain or indie bookstore. More publishers might be doing similar things as I write this. Whether the works are self-published, print, or POD, the reviews I receive are about the same, although some magazines seem to avoid reviewing self-published books. If the reviews are accurate, I can't say---in relation to my own work, anyway---that editor and publishers in print or online have more acuity. I think POD publishers might be more open to publishing edgy work because they don't have to endure the costs associated with print publishing. Practical matters involving money might influence or outweigh artistic judgment. I do think ezines deserve parity with print zines because they're creating a literary culture online that is more adventurous than what I read in many print zines. I receive the most satisfaction when somebody else publishes me because it makes me feel that somebody other than me thinks my work is worth publishing. Although I feel great when a writer sends me a complimentary book because he considers me "one of the real ones," I don't feel too satisfied when his publisher returns a manuscript I've submitted on the hope that the editors will feel the same way about my work as the author does. Given the nature of the publishing business in a time when corporations rule, I think the notion that a self-published or POD-published small press differs in any significant way from the more established small presses should be discarded. Most of us are really on our own as writers, regardless of publisher, and have to work every possible angle to get our work out. Nobody has a monopoly on editorial acuity. The less work I have to do in relation to publishing and promoting my books, the more satisfaction I receive. But I'm not holding my breath while waiting for a publisher to tell me, "You're great, baby, Now, just sit back and we'll do it all for you., and give you royalties on top of it" It makes for nice day dreams, but that's about it. I don't have time to read many blogs, but I wouldn't sell women writers short. Through her blog, Eileen Tabios has been a great supporter of my work, almost reviving a book of mine that I'd pretty much considered dead. She has an excellent site. I think other are better qualified to address the subject of blogs. There's my two cents (adjusted for inflation. Vernon http://vernonfrazer.com -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Ann Bogle Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 11:35 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Audience & publishing Last year, there was a good thread among poets about the difference for them in publishing in online v. print publications. Mostly, the biggest difference was that in print publication, more attention was paid to precision in line breaks, layout, and font -- that was their overall experience. Now I want to ask how writers and poets feel about self-publishing when they encounter it and at their own websites v. publishing in online publications. It seems sometimes such a small psychological difference in transitting between the wr iter's own website v. an official publication. What is the bias that suggests that people who edit other writers' work are somehow stoic for doing so but that writers (most editors are both) are somehow vainglorious for going into print? Sometimes I would like to know if it is true -- sometimes it IS true -- that the editors of online publications have more editorial acuity than the writers do themselves, or if it's a "hands" argument -- having someone select you and do it for you by definition carries more weight and prestige. It is the same argument, in smaller and subtler form, inherent in the favoritism shown for large houses. In general, it is taking time (as should be expected) for online publications to gain the acclaim of print publications -- even though smaller print publications are invariably hard to find and therefore are restricted to small library audiences of 2,000 or fewer readers. Weblogs are usually female (like the Buckthorn in botany), and so therefore are deemed "low" as art goes. I find certain conversational weblogs to be pure and engrossing. I think they may be higher art than some people tend to realize, depending on their creator. It is an exciting way to cut out middle men and bullshit. It is a species of self-publishing. Topics weblogs are arguably valuable to more people. Other thoughts? Should it be harder to access online publications to increase the sensation that they are not self-published, that they have prestige? Should they be umbrella-listed at sites such as webdelsol? AMB ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 14:07:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Waber Subject: ars poetica update Comments: To: announce MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii The ars poetica project rolls on at: http://www.logolalia.com/arspoetica/ Poems appeared last week by: Michael Rothenberg and Riccardo Duranti. Poems will appear this week by: Riccardo Duranti, Alan Halsey, and Gary Barwin. A new poem about poetry every day. Enjoy, Dan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 11:48:34 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > having > lived in cork and donegal for years and hung out with musicians and > shanakee (sorry, i know that's not the spelling), finnegans wake > doesn't > make sense any other way to me. Finnegan's Wake hung out in Cork? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 11:50:36 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Audience & publishing In-Reply-To: <20070205181132.HNTX1609.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net@HPLASERJ> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > As a self-publisher, my books don't sell very well, Your books publish themself? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 14:40:43 -0500 Reply-To: max@maxmiddle.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Max Middle Subject: 2007 Puddle leaflet subscription available MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dear Poetics List, Many of the excellent submissions I received last year for the Puddle leaflet series were in response to a call posted to this list in August. I was delighted by the excellent submissions received after that call - thanks everyone. I'm currently welcoming submission to the series on an ongoing basis. Questions about the series &/or submission welcome at < max@maxmiddle.com>. The following is a note about the 2007 subscription with mention of an ongoing call for submission to the series. Cheers, Max ** 2007 Puddle leaflet subscription available In May 2006, the Puddle leaflet series was initiated under the new imprint, Griddle Grin. To date, eight Puddle leaflets have been published. It's been a stirring adventure so far! Puddle leaflets published in 2006 are on letter sized paper and oriented aesthetically around visual poetry. This year, I'll be employing a range of printing formats. I'm currently inviting submission in any poetic genre/discipline; submission will be enthusiastically welcomed whether sent by email or by post. I was overwhelmed by the excellent response to my request for submission in August 2006: my appreciation and gratitude to the contributors. I also wish to thank Grant Wilkins for his expert guidance during the production process. Subscription to the Puddle leaflet series for 2007 is $15 (outside Canada, $15 in US funds). This year, I'll publish one leaflet per month, or more, and mailings will take place at quarterly intervals. For a complete set of 2006 Puddle leaflets, please send $10 (outside Canada, $10 in US funds). Forthcoming publications by, amongst others, Donna Kuhn, Caterina Davinio, Gary Barwin, Gregory Betts and Nico Vassilakis. To order a subscription, post your coordinates and cheque payable to Max Middle to the following address: Max Middle c/o Piperhill, #377 - 532 Montreal Rd, Ottawa, ON Canada K1K 4R4 2006 PUDDLE LEAFLETS #8 'Practicing my Signature' and 'Storm' by Jonathan Ball (Calgary) #7 'Poem with Vowel Music (Strung Too Tight) Sprung' (source text Lord Alfred Tennyson, 'To a Lady Sleeping') and 'Poem with Eroded Edges' (source text Sir Walter Raleigh, 'Epitaph') by Irving Weiss (Dix Hills, NY) #6 'Neee' by John M. Bennett (Columbus, OH) #5 'Continua 12-12' by Chris Turnbull (Kemptville, ON) #4 'practice preach' by Sheila Murphy (Phoenix) #3 'flatland #21' by derek beaulieu (Calgary) #2 'Moon Potatoes' by Max Middle (Ottawa) #1 'Two One Line Poems' by Max Middle (Ottawa) Best wishes, Max Middle c/o Piperhill, #377 - 532 Montreal Rd, Ottawa, ON Canada K1K 4R4 613 859 8423 max@maxmiddle.com Puddle leaflet blog entry: http://maxmiddle.blogspot.com/2007_01_01_archive.html#8673896800423059314 -- http://www.maxmiddle.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 15:07:03 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Re: phobia... In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Ann I didn't realize 20% of the population had disabilities. That's an eye-opener, especially given the corresponding amount of misunderstanding and mistreatment that accompany many of the conditions. True, too many people focus only on the disability. I was fortunate to learn before my formal diagnosis that Tourette syndrome had some positive aspects. It explained my ability to multi-task and do certain processing functions exponentially faster than my co-workers and probably accounts for a few of the poetics techniques I use in my work. While I pay a heavy price socially for it, and the tics and depression are less than fun, I don't consider myself disabled. "Society" does. If they want to send me a disability check for having a "disorder" that I call a "condition," I'll take the money and mutter under my breath about "reparations." I didn't write the definition, and all of us share its consequences. Other people with other conditions considered disabilities have told me they have special abilities that people without their conditions don't have. In many cases, I think we could dump the "disability" paradigm and assess people according to the "spectrum" of their abilities. Vernon http://vernonfrazer.com -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Ann Bogle Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 8:00 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: phobia... In a message dated 1/31/2007 1:18:12 P.M. Central Standard Time, frazerv@BELLSOUTH.NET writes: My symptoms aren't things I can hide. I can't "pass" for non-Tourettic. This is the post I wanted to reply to and waited. Now Poetics emails seem to have dried up and are bypassing me: This happened in Sept., too, but then I let it go. Somehow I started receiving Poetics mail again in January. Last summer I wrote an email every 3 weeks or so that must have had too little to do with Poetics, which I take to mean international politics via poetry, or poetry via int'l politics, and had to do with North American non-poets who were in a chronic state of treating disabling conditions or in a disabling state of treating chronic conditions ... of how internalized stigma caused them to react against one another and to become harmful to their fellow human beings; -- it was worse than *thoughts* about our situation that led to the harm: There were housing loss and other alarming hazards. It was watching people become homeless before our eyes. It was these people's own hardball antagonism toward not being *normal.* *Phobia,* if you can get people to go in for it, is treated as a psychological condition for which there is *therapy.* Education serves that purpose as well. *Disabled* people comprise 20% of the U.S. population and *would* represent the largest minority in the U.S. if they chose to associate, to be inclusive along the lines of type of *disability.* Mainly, I think the word *disability* is misleading because it says nothing for *ability,* and most of the *disabled* people I have met are more *able* than not. Depressives are not viewed as in the *innocent* group, but are more likely in the *bad guys* group. 20% of depressives are suicidal; the rest are not. I did not have illnesses as a child and had a strong constitution. I grew up feminist, more than my mother, and at an early age, earlier than the norm: at 12, I read Ms. Magazine. So I have those memories to draw on and try to recapture. For years, I was adequately *private* and stable following dx. The passing of time, not living as if I were in a race, and my enthusiasm for holistic treatment for bipolar -- as if that were my *job* -- caused a loss in academic peer structure and the chance for employment. AMB ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 10:09:58 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry In-Reply-To: <46f01cfefd1c346f3de0b60445784b7d@sfu.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT :-) joyce's father was from cork. bronte father was from the valley of the boyne. On Mon, 5 Feb 2007, George Bowering wrote: > > having > > lived in cork and donegal for years and hung out with musicians and > > shanakee (sorry, i know that's not the spelling), finnegans wake > > doesn't > > make sense any other way to me. > > Finnegan's Wake hung out in Cork? > gabrielle welford welford@hawaii.edu Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.595 / Virus Database: 378 - Release Date: 2/25/2004 wilhelm reich anarcho-syndicalism gut/heart/head/earth ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 21:30:23 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anny Ballardini Subject: Re: Audience & publishing In-Reply-To: <8382c68436ad4d3981195fac243c3250@sfu.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline + sell themself better, don't very well On 2/5/07, George Bowering wrote: > > > As a self-publisher, my books don't sell very well, > > Your books publish themself? > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 16:19:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: rousseau and de man In-Reply-To: <45C5C05E0200005100019D6B@WVUGW01.wvu.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable That is surprising bec if you read Emile on the surface Rousseau is a revolutionary. If you think abt its implications, Rousseau seems to be a controlling fascist, no? Ruth L. On 2/4/07 11:15 AM, "Charles Baldwin" wrote: > I think the statement in question is from the interview with Rosso at the= end > of _The Resistance to Theory_, where de Man states: >=20 > "...I have a tendency to put upon texts an inherent authority, which is > stronger, I think, than Derrida is willing to put on them. I assume, as a > working hypothesis (as a working hypothesis, because I know batter than t= hat), > that the texts *knows* in an absolute way what it's doing. I knowthis is = not > the case, but it is a necesary working hypothesis that Rousseau knows any= time > what he is doing and as such there is no need to deconstruct Rousseau. In= a > complicated way, I would hold to the statement that 'the text deconstruct= s > itself, is self-deconstructive' rather than being deconstructed by a > philosophical intervention from outside the text." >=20 > This is a crucial point and underlies the difference between Derrida on > Rousseau in _Of Grammatology_ and de Man on Derrida on Rousseau in "The > Rhetoric of Blindness." Barry and Alex are differing over whether the tex= t can > be deconstructed by the critic vs. whether the text is "in deconstruction= ." De > Man seems to suggest the latter, shifting emphasis away from the work don= e by > the critic to the work already at work in the work. ("I never had an idea= of > my own," says de Man.) It is interesting to note that de Man then adds th= at > the difference is that he is a philologist and not a philosopher (as Derr= ida > is).=20 >=20 > Sandy >=20 >>>> Alexander Dickow 02/03/07 8:24 AM >>> > Barry wrote: > "I remember that for Paul de Man, Rousseau was the one > writer who could=20 > not be deconstructed--who was always, so to speak, way > out in front of=20 > the reader/critic." >=20 > Where does de Man say this? I admit I'm surprised, > since he "deconstructs" the Profession de foi du > vicaire savoyard (Emile) in a very smart paper (one of > the best on the Profession de foi). Rousseau -- see > the Grammatologie -- was a cornerstone of > "deconstructionist" reading practices from the > beginnings of poststructuralism. Far from being > "impossible to deconstruct", if you ask me! > Not to mention: anyone who has read Rousseau carefully > knows that his texts are veritable conundrums, > vertiginous, infinitely tricky and unstable. > "Impossible to deconstruct"? Rousseau's a master of > slippery vocabulary (related terms with unstable > boundaries, reinvented familiar words or notions...), > and he can get you to call black orange in under five > minutes. > So, I'd love to know where (and how, why, etc) de Man > makes this claim. > Amicalement, > Alex >=20 >=20 >=20 > www.alexdickow.net/blog/ > =20 > les mots! ah quel d=E9sert =E0 la fin > merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 16:30:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: rousseau and de man In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Is this necessarily a contradiction? At 04:19 PM 2/5/2007, you wrote: >That is surprising bec if you read Emile on the surface Rousseau is a >revolutionary. If you think abt its implications, Rousseau seems to be a >controlling fascist, no? >Ruth L. > > >On 2/4/07 11:15 AM, "Charles Baldwin" wrote: > > > I think the statement in question is from the=20 > interview with Rosso at the end > > of _The Resistance to Theory_, where de Man states: > > > > "...I have a tendency to put upon texts an inherent authority, which is > > stronger, I think, than Derrida is willing to put on them. I assume, as= a > > working hypothesis (as a working hypothesis,=20 > because I know batter than that), > > that the texts *knows* in an absolute way=20 > what it's doing. I knowthis is not > > the case, but it is a necesary working=20 > hypothesis that Rousseau knows any time > > what he is doing and as such there is no need to deconstruct Rousseau.= In a > > complicated way, I would hold to the statement that 'the text= deconstructs > > itself, is self-deconstructive' rather than being deconstructed by a > > philosophical intervention from outside the text." > > > > This is a crucial point and underlies the difference between Derrida on > > Rousseau in _Of Grammatology_ and de Man on Derrida on Rousseau in "The > > Rhetoric of Blindness." Barry and Alex are=20 > differing over whether the text can > > be deconstructed by the critic vs. whether=20 > the text is "in deconstruction." De > > Man seems to suggest the latter, shifting=20 > emphasis away from the work done by > > the critic to the work already at work in the=20 > work. ("I never had an idea of > > my own," says de Man.) It is interesting to note that de Man then adds= that > > the difference is that he is a philologist=20 > and not a philosopher (as Derrida > > is). > > > > Sandy > > > >>>> Alexander Dickow 02/03/07 8:24 AM >>> > > Barry wrote: > > "I remember that for Paul de Man, Rousseau was the one > > writer who could > > not be deconstructed--who was always, so to speak, way > > out in front of > > the reader/critic." > > > > Where does de Man say this? I admit I'm surprised, > > since he "deconstructs" the Profession de foi du > > vicaire savoyard (Emile) in a very smart paper (one of > > the best on the Profession de foi). Rousseau -- see > > the Grammatologie -- was a cornerstone of > > "deconstructionist" reading practices from the > > beginnings of poststructuralism. Far from being > > "impossible to deconstruct", if you ask me! > > Not to mention: anyone who has read Rousseau carefully > > knows that his texts are veritable conundrums, > > vertiginous, infinitely tricky and unstable. > > "Impossible to deconstruct"? Rousseau's a master of > > slippery vocabulary (related terms with unstable > > boundaries, reinvented familiar words or notions...), > > and he can get you to call black orange in under five > > minutes. > > So, I'd love to know where (and how, why, etc) de Man > > makes this claim. > > Amicalement, > > Alex > > > > > > > > www.alexdickow.net/blog/ > > > > les mots! ah quel d=E9sert =E0 la fin > > merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 16:34:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: rousseau and de man In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20070205162957.04ee7ac0@earthlink.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable you mean one that R was aware of? no. the naive reader can think his plan for emile is liberating but then you realize that he controls everything that emile does, takes him away from society like a cult leader. On 2/5/07 4:30 PM, "Mark Weiss" wrote: > Is this necessarily a contradiction? >=20 >=20 > At 04:19 PM 2/5/2007, you wrote: >> That is surprising bec if you read Emile on the surface Rousseau is a >> revolutionary. If you think abt its implications, Rousseau seems to be a >> controlling fascist, no? >> Ruth L. >>=20 >>=20 >> On 2/4/07 11:15 AM, "Charles Baldwin" wro= te: >>=20 >>> I think the statement in question is from the >> interview with Rosso at the end >>> of _The Resistance to Theory_, where de Man states: >>>=20 >>> "...I have a tendency to put upon texts an inherent authority, which is >>> stronger, I think, than Derrida is willing to put on them. I assume, as= a >>> working hypothesis (as a working hypothesis, >> because I know batter than that), >>> that the texts *knows* in an absolute way >> what it's doing. I knowthis is not >>> the case, but it is a necesary working >> hypothesis that Rousseau knows any time >>> what he is doing and as such there is no need to deconstruct Rousseau. = In a >>> complicated way, I would hold to the statement that 'the text deconstru= cts >>> itself, is self-deconstructive' rather than being deconstructed by a >>> philosophical intervention from outside the text." >>>=20 >>> This is a crucial point and underlies the difference between Derrida on >>> Rousseau in _Of Grammatology_ and de Man on Derrida on Rousseau in "The >>> Rhetoric of Blindness." Barry and Alex are >> differing over whether the text can >>> be deconstructed by the critic vs. whether >> the text is "in deconstruction." De >>> Man seems to suggest the latter, shifting >> emphasis away from the work done by >>> the critic to the work already at work in the >> work. ("I never had an idea of >>> my own," says de Man.) It is interesting to note that de Man then adds = that >>> the difference is that he is a philologist >> and not a philosopher (as Derrida >>> is). >>>=20 >>> Sandy >>>=20 >>>>>> Alexander Dickow 02/03/07 8:24 AM >>> >>> Barry wrote: >>> "I remember that for Paul de Man, Rousseau was the one >>> writer who could >>> not be deconstructed--who was always, so to speak, way >>> out in front of >>> the reader/critic." >>>=20 >>> Where does de Man say this? I admit I'm surprised, >>> since he "deconstructs" the Profession de foi du >>> vicaire savoyard (Emile) in a very smart paper (one of >>> the best on the Profession de foi). Rousseau -- see >>> the Grammatologie -- was a cornerstone of >>> "deconstructionist" reading practices from the >>> beginnings of poststructuralism. Far from being >>> "impossible to deconstruct", if you ask me! >>> Not to mention: anyone who has read Rousseau carefully >>> knows that his texts are veritable conundrums, >>> vertiginous, infinitely tricky and unstable. >>> "Impossible to deconstruct"? Rousseau's a master of >>> slippery vocabulary (related terms with unstable >>> boundaries, reinvented familiar words or notions...), >>> and he can get you to call black orange in under five >>> minutes. >>> So, I'd love to know where (and how, why, etc) de Man >>> makes this claim. >>> Amicalement, >>> Alex >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> www.alexdickow.net/blog/ >>>=20 >>> les mots! ah quel d=E9sert =E0 la fin >>> merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 14:38:37 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: Audience & publishing In-Reply-To: <20070205181132.HNTX1609.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net@HPLASERJ> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Thanks, Vernon, for the informed sincerity of your response here. As both a poet and sometimes publisher over a big chunk of time, I think the still relatively new electronic publishing modes are still much in transition - at least I like to think so. From the advantage point of view, there is: 1. the global (geographic) spread of the makers, the poets as well as the audience . The disadvantage there is that the network is bloated and too fast - which, ironically, can create a disaffection, or disinterest - as what happens to me often now. I remember the days of very slow overseas mail - say, two months to get a copy of Work magazine from Detroit, or a new Jack Spicer book, to the outback of Nigeria. But boy did I read every page with an almost ferocious attention. Now I am frequently numbed by getting too much from everywhere. (But then there is Ron Silliman turning on his engines every day, enlivened rather than numbed or complaining about the seeming siege, it seems, and I suspect many are grateful for the attentions and sales benefits he is able to spread). 2. In the tangible world of trade books, publishing is ideally a dance - with probably equally share pain and pleasure - between writer-editor/publisher- Design/ production promotion- media reviewers Book fairs, sales reps and store outlets. Much of that interplay is now historically dead. The role of the editor is decidedly absent from most publishing houses which is a sadness. The loss of this dynamic creates bloated, flat books, or dull books. A good editor is like a good conductor - insuring a book's rhythm and pace, etc. (A poet who acts as his/her own editor is like the old saw about the doctor who treats himself). As much as I like publishing online, only rarely do I get a good editor who has a sense of shape, most recently, Tim Atkins at Onedit. The digital medium invites obesity, a limitlessness. Design/ Production. Yes, I think a lot of the online mags and ebooks are beginning to look great (Bridge, Fascicles, Masthead, etc.) The much easier implementation of images gives new breathing room to old fashioned "book illustration." Again I think online design is an emerging medium of its own and will only get better. Promotion/ Reviews Poetry - at least stuff on the edge -has been so ill served by traditional print media. However, at its best, the online has not replaced the now practically dead world of large circulation newspaper reviews. To my knowledge, we do not have either poet critic of a large stature matched with a review organ of large mainstream stature to which the combination of readers/reviewers and review can go to. The sad irony is that we have a large number of significant (great, whatever) poets and no great review media to correspond to their accomplishments. ( NYR, NYT, Nation, etc. will not do the job. Witness whoever he was (David somebody) reviewing Frost and trying to toss a blink to M Perloff, and experimental poets - that was kind of off.putting > Hi Ann > > I've self-published 7 poetry books, 3 novels and 3 recordings. Print > publishers have published 2 books. POD publishers have published 2, with 2 > more on the way. I like to think this gives me some knowledge of the > subject, though the scenario is probably changing as we speak. > > In today's publishing climate, I have no choice but to be the publisher of > last resort. > > As a self-publisher, my books don't sell very well, but I do have > distribution channels for any orders that might come in. Every year I manage > to sell a few copies to college libraries. > > My print books published by a small press found their way to college > libraries regularly, probably because Potes & Poets was an established press > and because whoever did the ordering could do a mass order of poetry books > through SPD. > > MY POD books have appeared without any problems, probably because I do my > own typesetting; I don't know anybody else who wants the job or could do it > as well, unfortunately, it's probably cost me some publishing opportunities > with some presses. The POD books don't make it to the college libraries or > receive distribution beyond the site where they're sold, e.g., www.lulu.com > or www.cafepress.com. > > > The biggest problem we face continues to be distribution of our work. > > Some POD publishers, such as Geoffrey Gatza of BlazeVox, are finding ways to > > improve distribution so that people can find the books at Amazon.com, if not > on the shelf at the local chain or indie bookstore. More publishers might be > doing similar things as I write this. > > Whether the works are self-published, print, or POD, the reviews I receive > are about the same, although some magazines seem to avoid reviewing > self-published books. > > If the reviews are accurate, I can't say---in relation to my own work, > anyway---that editor and publishers in print or online have more acuity. > I think POD publishers might be more open to publishing edgy work because > they don't have to endure the costs associated with print publishing. > Practical matters involving money might influence or outweigh artistic > judgment. > > I do think ezines deserve parity with print zines because they're creating a > literary culture online that is more adventurous than what I read in many > print zines. > > I receive the most satisfaction when somebody else publishes me because > it makes me feel that somebody other than me thinks my work is worth > publishing. Although I feel great when a writer sends me a complimentary > book because he considers me "one of the real ones," I don't feel too > satisfied when his publisher returns a manuscript I've submitted on the hope > that the editors will feel the same way about my work as the author does. > > Given the nature of the publishing business in a time when corporations > rule, I think the notion that a self-published or POD-published small press > differs in any significant way from the more established small presses > should be discarded. Most of us are really on our own as writers, regardless > of publisher, and have to work every possible angle to get our work out. > > Nobody has a monopoly on editorial acuity. > > The less work I have to do in relation to publishing and promoting my books, > the more satisfaction I receive. But I'm not holding my breath while waiting > for a publisher to tell me, "You're great, baby, Now, just sit back and > we'll do it all for you., and give you royalties on top of it" > > It makes for nice day dreams, but that's about it. > > I don't have time to read many blogs, but I wouldn't sell women writers > short. Through her blog, Eileen Tabios has been a great supporter of my > work, almost reviving a book of mine that I'd pretty much considered dead. > She has an excellent site. I think other are better qualified to address the > subject of blogs. > > There's my two cents (adjusted for inflation. > > Vernon > http://vernonfrazer.com > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of Ann Bogle > Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 11:35 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Audience & publishing > > Last year, there was a good thread among poets about the difference for > them > in publishing in online v. print publications. Mostly, the biggest > difference was that in print publication, more attention was paid to > precision in > line breaks, layout, and font -- that was their overall experience. Now I > want > to ask how writers and poets feel about self-publishing when they encounter > > it and at their own websites v. publishing in online publications. It > seems > sometimes such a small psychological difference in transitting between the > wr > iter's own website v. an official publication. What is the bias that > suggests > that people who edit other writers' work are somehow stoic for doing so but > > that writers (most editors are both) are somehow vainglorious for going > into > print? Sometimes I would like to know if it is true -- sometimes it IS > true > -- that the editors of online publications have more editorial acuity than > the writers do themselves, or if it's a "hands" argument -- having someone > select you and do it for you by definition carries more weight and > prestige. It > is the same argument, in smaller and subtler form, inherent in the > favoritism > shown for large houses. In general, it is taking time (as should be > expected) for online publications to gain the acclaim of print publications > -- even > though smaller print publications are invariably hard to find and therefore > > are restricted to small library audiences of 2,000 or fewer readers. > Weblogs > are usually female (like the Buckthorn in botany), and so therefore are > deemed "low" as art goes. I find certain conversational weblogs to be pure > and > engrossing. I think they may be higher art than some people tend to > realize, > depending on their creator. It is an exciting way to cut out middle men > and > bullshit. It is a species of self-publishing. Topics weblogs are arguably > > valuable to more people. Other thoughts? Should it be harder to access > online publications to increase the sensation that they are not > self-published, > that they have prestige? Should they be umbrella-listed at sites such as > webdelsol? > > AMB ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 15:41:23 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: OOPs -Re: Audience & publishing In-Reply-To: <20070205181132.HNTX1609.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net@HPLASERJ> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I put the previous email on some kind of 'draft' hold, and it hatched early. If still interested, jump to the middle (RESTART) if you already read the first part! --- Thanks, Vernon, for the informed sincerity of your response here. As both a poet and sometimes publisher over a big chunk of time, I think the still relatively new electronic publishing modes are still much in transition - at least I like to think so. From the advantage point of view, there is: 1. the global (geographic) spread of the makers, the poets as well as the audience . The disadvantage there is that the network is bloated and too fast - which, ironically, can create a disaffection, or disinterest - as what happens to me often now. I remember the days of very slow overseas mail - say, two months to get a copy of Work magazine from Detroit, or a new Jack Spicer book, to the outback of Nigeria. But boy did I read every page with an almost ferocious attention. Now I am frequently numbed by getting too much from everywhere. (But then there is Ron Silliman turning on his engines every day, enlivened rather than numbed or complaining about the seeming siege, it seems, and I suspect many are grateful for the attentions and sales benefits he is able to spread). 2. In the tangible world of trade books, publishing is ideally a dance - with probably equally share pain and pleasure - between writer-editor/publisher- Design/ production promotion- media reviewers Distriubtion - Book fairs, sales reps and store outlets. Much of that interplay is now historically dead. The role of the editor is decidedly absent from most publishing houses which is a sadness. The loss of this dynamic creates bloated, flat books, or dull books. A good editor is like a good conductor - insuring a book's rhythm and pace, etc. (A poet who acts as his/her own editor is like the old saw about the doctor who treats himself). As much as I like publishing online, only rarely do I get a good editor who has a sense of shape, most recently, Tim Atkins at Onedit. The digital medium invites obesity, a limitlessness. But, I suspect, the confusion of "the value of information" has been confused with the poem and the book as an object(s) within themselves - objects with a history and tradition of book making which the hype around "information" and volume have replaced in an aesthetically unrewarding way. Design/ Production. Yes, I think a lot of the online mags and ebooks are beginning to look great (Bridge, Fascicles, Masthead, etc.) The much easier implementation of images gives new breathing room to old fashioned "book illustration." Again I think online design is an emerging medium of its own and will only get better. (RESTART!! - IF YOU READ THE FIRST PART) Promotion/ Reviews Poetry - at least stuff on the edge -has been so ill served by traditional print media. However, at its best, the online has not replaced the now practically dead world of large circulation newspaper reviews. To my knowledge, we do not have either poet critic of a large stature matched with a review organ of large mainstream stature to which the combination of readers/reviewers and review can go to. The sad irony is that we have a large number of significant (great, whatever) poets and no great review media to correspond to their accomplishments. ( NYR, NYT, Nation, etc. will not do the job. Witness whoever he was (David somebody) reviewing Frost and trying to toss a blink to M Perloff, and experimental poets - that was kind of off putting, awkward, etc., to say the least. On the other hand, Ron Silliman, Rain Taxi, blog commentators, etc. have done much to bring attention to good books that would never have hit the 'hierarchical' radar of NYT, etc. Distribution through traditional bookstore media is practically dead. Amazon is devouring bookstore after bookstore. The aesthetic etc pleasures of looking at poetry books, and all the various associations that can come from the arrangements of books on a shelf is more than not, a history. (Even in libraries, as libraries begin to go to ebooks for their collections, and small presses no doubt will go to ebook and ebook modes of distribution and sale and the emergence of comfortable ebook readers (through ebrary, google, etc.) How any poetry book will emerge thru these new networks is no doubt a developing challenge. There are lots of attractions for academia (professor made anthology/readers will be much more convenient), cross referencing a poets entire works will be convenient, too, and access to a range of review and critical responses to a poet's work will be easier. This is all fated, it appears definite. However, the principles of the good printed book (well edited, designed, promoted, distributed and intelligently reviewed) are not going to disappear. In this new democratic technology - which everyone can appear as a poet with a digital ebook - it's going to be an interesting adventure to see the ways in which a book can emerge from the pack with some of the traditional values still in tact. These are my views. In terms of the poetry world, it would be of value, I suspect to hear from Brent Cunningham or Laura Moriarty to see how they envision the future among the new givens. Stephen Vincent http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > Hi Ann > > I've self-published 7 poetry books, 3 novels and 3 recordings. Print > publishers have published 2 books. POD publishers have published 2, with 2 > more on the way. I like to think this gives me some knowledge of the > subject, though the scenario is probably changing as we speak. > > In today's publishing climate, I have no choice but to be the publisher of > last resort. > > As a self-publisher, my books don't sell very well, but I do have > distribution channels for any orders that might come in. Every year I manage > to sell a few copies to college libraries. > > My print books published by a small press found their way to college > libraries regularly, probably because Potes & Poets was an established press > and because whoever did the ordering could do a mass order of poetry books > through SPD. > > MY POD books have appeared without any problems, probably because I do my > own typesetting; I don't know anybody else who wants the job or could do it > as well, unfortunately, it's probably cost me some publishing opportunities > with some presses. The POD books don't make it to the college libraries or > receive distribution beyond the site where they're sold, e.g., www.lulu.com > or www.cafepress.com. > > > The biggest problem we face continues to be distribution of our work. > > Some POD publishers, such as Geoffrey Gatza of BlazeVox, are finding ways to > > improve distribution so that people can find the books at Amazon.com, if not > on the shelf at the local chain or indie bookstore. More publishers might be > doing similar things as I write this. > > Whether the works are self-published, print, or POD, the reviews I receive > are about the same, although some magazines seem to avoid reviewing > self-published books. > > If the reviews are accurate, I can't say---in relation to my own work, > anyway---that editor and publishers in print or online have more acuity. > I think POD publishers might be more open to publishing edgy work because > they don't have to endure the costs associated with print publishing. > Practical matters involving money might influence or outweigh artistic > judgment. > > I do think ezines deserve parity with print zines because they're creating a > literary culture online that is more adventurous than what I read in many > print zines. > > I receive the most satisfaction when somebody else publishes me because > it makes me feel that somebody other than me thinks my work is worth > publishing. Although I feel great when a writer sends me a complimentary > book because he considers me "one of the real ones," I don't feel too > satisfied when his publisher returns a manuscript I've submitted on the hope > that the editors will feel the same way about my work as the author does. > > Given the nature of the publishing business in a time when corporations > rule, I think the notion that a self-published or POD-published small press > differs in any significant way from the more established small presses > should be discarded. Most of us are really on our own as writers, regardless > of publisher, and have to work every possible angle to get our work out. > > Nobody has a monopoly on editorial acuity. > > The less work I have to do in relation to publishing and promoting my books, > the more satisfaction I receive. But I'm not holding my breath while waiting > for a publisher to tell me, "You're great, baby, Now, just sit back and > we'll do it all for you., and give you royalties on top of it" > > It makes for nice day dreams, but that's about it. > > I don't have time to read many blogs, but I wouldn't sell women writers > short. Through her blog, Eileen Tabios has been a great supporter of my > work, almost reviving a book of mine that I'd pretty much considered dead. > She has an excellent site. I think other are better qualified to address the > subject of blogs. > > There's my two cents (adjusted for inflation. > > Vernon > http://vernonfrazer.com > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of Ann Bogle > Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 11:35 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Audience & publishing > > Last year, there was a good thread among poets about the difference for > them > in publishing in online v. print publications. Mostly, the biggest > difference was that in print publication, more attention was paid to > precision in > line breaks, layout, and font -- that was their overall experience. Now I > want > to ask how writers and poets feel about self-publishing when they encounter > > it and at their own websites v. publishing in online publications. It > seems > sometimes such a small psychological difference in transitting between the > wr > iter's own website v. an official publication. What is the bias that > suggests > that people who edit other writers' work are somehow stoic for doing so but > > that writers (most editors are both) are somehow vainglorious for going > into > print? Sometimes I would like to know if it is true -- sometimes it IS > true > -- that the editors of online publications have more editorial acuity than > the writers do themselves, or if it's a "hands" argument -- having someone > select you and do it for you by definition carries more weight and > prestige. It > is the same argument, in smaller and subtler form, inherent in the > favoritism > shown for large houses. In general, it is taking time (as should be > expected) for online publications to gain the acclaim of print publications > -- even > though smaller print publications are invariably hard to find and therefore > > are restricted to small library audiences of 2,000 or fewer readers. > Weblogs > are usually female (like the Buckthorn in botany), and so therefore are > deemed "low" as art goes. I find certain conversational weblogs to be pure > and > engrossing. I think they may be higher art than some people tend to > realize, > depending on their creator. It is an exciting way to cut out middle men > and > bullshit. It is a species of self-publishing. Topics weblogs are arguably > > valuable to more people. Other thoughts? Should it be harder to access > online publications to increase the sensation that they are not > self-published, > that they have prestige? Should they be umbrella-listed at sites such as > webdelsol? > > AMB ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 16:23:23 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: rousseau and de man In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20070205162957.04ee7ac0@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE i don't think so. i think there's a little bit of the fascist in all ideali= sm. On Mon, 5 Feb 2007, Mark Weiss wrote: > Is this necessarily a contradiction? > > > At 04:19 PM 2/5/2007, you wrote: >> That is surprising bec if you read Emile on the surface Rousseau is a >> revolutionary. If you think abt its implications, Rousseau seems to be a >> controlling fascist, no? >> Ruth L. >>=20 >>=20 >> On 2/4/07 11:15 AM, "Charles Baldwin" wro= te: >>=20 >> > I think the statement in question is from the interview with Rosso at = the=20 >> end >> > of _The Resistance to Theory_, where de Man states: >> > >> > "...I have a tendency to put upon texts an inherent authority, which i= s >> > stronger, I think, than Derrida is willing to put on them. I assume, a= s a >> > working hypothesis (as a working hypothesis, because I know batter tha= n=20 >> that), >> > that the texts *knows* in an absolute way what it's doing. I knowthis = is=20 >> not >> > the case, but it is a necesary working hypothesis that Rousseau knows = any=20 >> time >> > what he is doing and as such there is no need to deconstruct Rousseau.= In=20 >> a >> > complicated way, I would hold to the statement that 'the text deconstr= ucts >> > itself, is self-deconstructive' rather than being deconstructed by a >> > philosophical intervention from outside the text." >> > >> > This is a crucial point and underlies the difference between Derrida o= n >> > Rousseau in _Of Grammatology_ and de Man on Derrida on Rousseau in "Th= e >> > Rhetoric of Blindness." Barry and Alex are differing over whether the = text=20 >> can >> > be deconstructed by the critic vs. whether the text is "in=20 >> deconstruction." De >> > Man seems to suggest the latter, shifting emphasis away from the work = done=20 >> by >> > the critic to the work already at work in the work. ("I never had an i= dea=20 >> of >> > my own," says de Man.) It is interesting to note that de Man then adds= =20 >> that >> > the difference is that he is a philologist and not a philosopher (as= =20 >> Derrida >> > is). >> > >> > Sandy >> > >> >>>> Alexander Dickow 02/03/07 8:24 AM >>> >> > Barry wrote: >> > "I remember that for Paul de Man, Rousseau was the one >> > writer who could >> > not be deconstructed--who was always, so to speak, way >> > out in front of >> > the reader/critic." >> > >> > Where does de Man say this? I admit I'm surprised, >> > since he "deconstructs" the Profession de foi du >> > vicaire savoyard (Emile) in a very smart paper (one of >> > the best on the Profession de foi). Rousseau -- see >> > the Grammatologie -- was a cornerstone of >> > "deconstructionist" reading practices from the >> > beginnings of poststructuralism. Far from being >> > "impossible to deconstruct", if you ask me! >> > Not to mention: anyone who has read Rousseau carefully >> > knows that his texts are veritable conundrums, >> > vertiginous, infinitely tricky and unstable. >> > "Impossible to deconstruct"? Rousseau's a master of >> > slippery vocabulary (related terms with unstable >> > boundaries, reinvented familiar words or notions...), >> > and he can get you to call black orange in under five >> > minutes. >> > So, I'd love to know where (and how, why, etc) de Man >> > makes this claim. >> > Amicalement, >> > Alex >> > >> > >> > >> > www.alexdickow.net/blog/ >> > >> > les mots! ah quel d=E9sert =E0 la fin >> > merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 19:35:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: rousseau and de man In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable I remember my philosophy teacher at Stony Brook explaining why he was a fascist--wish I had those notes... On 2/5/07 7:23 PM, "Jason Quackenbush" wrote: > i don't think so. i think there's a little bit of the fascist in all idea= lism. >=20 > On Mon, 5 Feb 2007, Mark Weiss wrote: >=20 >> Is this necessarily a contradiction? >>=20 >>=20 >> At 04:19 PM 2/5/2007, you wrote: >>> That is surprising bec if you read Emile on the surface Rousseau is a >>> revolutionary. If you think abt its implications, Rousseau seems to be = a >>> controlling fascist, no? >>> Ruth L. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> On 2/4/07 11:15 AM, "Charles Baldwin" wr= ote: >>>=20 >>>> I think the statement in question is from the interview with Rosso at = the >>> end >>>> of _The Resistance to Theory_, where de Man states: >>>>=20 >>>> "...I have a tendency to put upon texts an inherent authority, which i= s >>>> stronger, I think, than Derrida is willing to put on them. I assume, a= s a >>>> working hypothesis (as a working hypothesis, because I know batter tha= n >>> that), >>>> that the texts *knows* in an absolute way what it's doing. I knowthis = is >>> not >>>> the case, but it is a necesary working hypothesis that Rousseau knows = any >>> time >>>> what he is doing and as such there is no need to deconstruct Rousseau.= In >>> a >>>> complicated way, I would hold to the statement that 'the text deconstr= ucts >>>> itself, is self-deconstructive' rather than being deconstructed by a >>>> philosophical intervention from outside the text." >>>>=20 >>>> This is a crucial point and underlies the difference between Derrida o= n >>>> Rousseau in _Of Grammatology_ and de Man on Derrida on Rousseau in "Th= e >>>> Rhetoric of Blindness." Barry and Alex are differing over whether the = text >>> can >>>> be deconstructed by the critic vs. whether the text is "in >>> deconstruction." De >>>> Man seems to suggest the latter, shifting emphasis away from the work = done >>> by >>>> the critic to the work already at work in the work. ("I never had an i= dea >>> of >>>> my own," says de Man.) It is interesting to note that de Man then adds >>> that >>>> the difference is that he is a philologist and not a philosopher (as >>> Derrida >>>> is). >>>>=20 >>>> Sandy >>>>=20 >>>>>>> Alexander Dickow 02/03/07 8:24 AM >>> >>>> Barry wrote: >>>> "I remember that for Paul de Man, Rousseau was the one >>>> writer who could >>>> not be deconstructed--who was always, so to speak, way >>>> out in front of >>>> the reader/critic." >>>>=20 >>>> Where does de Man say this? I admit I'm surprised, >>>> since he "deconstructs" the Profession de foi du >>>> vicaire savoyard (Emile) in a very smart paper (one of >>>> the best on the Profession de foi). Rousseau -- see >>>> the Grammatologie -- was a cornerstone of >>>> "deconstructionist" reading practices from the >>>> beginnings of poststructuralism. Far from being >>>> "impossible to deconstruct", if you ask me! >>>> Not to mention: anyone who has read Rousseau carefully >>>> knows that his texts are veritable conundrums, >>>> vertiginous, infinitely tricky and unstable. >>>> "Impossible to deconstruct"? Rousseau's a master of >>>> slippery vocabulary (related terms with unstable >>>> boundaries, reinvented familiar words or notions...), >>>> and he can get you to call black orange in under five >>>> minutes. >>>> So, I'd love to know where (and how, why, etc) de Man >>>> makes this claim. >>>> Amicalement, >>>> Alex >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> www.alexdickow.net/blog/ >>>>=20 >>>> les mots! ah quel d=E9sert =E0 la fin >>>> merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet >>=20 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 19:49:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eric Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry In-Reply-To: <46f01cfefd1c346f3de0b60445784b7d@sfu.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit [The Sept 11 attacks were] the greatest work of art in the cosmos … compared to that, we composers are nothing.” Karlheinz Stockhausen, composer. KS mentioned Lucifer in the original German interview, but it does give deconstructed space to other "works of art," like http://www.vidmax.com/index.php/videos/view/539 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 20:19:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Adam Morey Subject: Essays on Byrd MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello, I am looking to find out if anyone knows of any good criticism or essays on the work of Don Byrd, especially his larger work, The Great Dimmestore Centennial. I was recently made aware of one article, "In the Domain of the Common: a Consideration of Don Byrd's Work." Groundswell, v. 2, no. 3 (1987) by Michael Blitz, but have not been able to find it anywhere. Let me know if anyone can help. Best, Adam J. Morey ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 19:39:58 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: Essays on Don Byrd In-Reply-To: <33093.72.224.60.145.1170724745.squirrel@webmail.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Adam, I spend some time with Don's ~The Poetics of the Common Knowledge~ in ~Industrial Poetics~, just out last fall on Iowa. You'll note references to Don's critical work in, for instance, Jed Rasula's ~The American Poetry Wax Museum~ and ~This Compost~. Jed and Don have a long history as correspondents. Erik Sweet did a short piece on Don for the Poetry Project Newsletter, April/May of last year I think. I'm a great fan of ~Dimestore~, at any rate. Wasn't it reviewed in the Village Voice back when? I'm sure others -- Pierre Joris in particular -- can chime in here with more info. Best, Joe >Hello, > >I am looking to find out if anyone knows of any good criticism or essays >on the work of Don Byrd, especially his larger work, The Great Dimmestore >Centennial. > >I was recently made aware of one article, "In the Domain of the Common: a >Consideration of Don Byrd's Work." Groundswell, v. 2, no. 3 (1987) by >Michael Blitz, but have not been able to find it anywhere. > > >Let me know if anyone can help. > >Best, > >Adam J. Morey ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 20:47:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Adam Morey Subject: Re: Essays on Don Byrd In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Joe, I recently read an Don's review of your book on Joris' blog. I'll have to get myself to actually pick it up one of these days. Thanks, Adam > Adam, I spend some time with Don's ~The Poetics of the Common > Knowledge~ in ~Industrial Poetics~, just out last fall on Iowa. > You'll note references to Don's critical work in, for instance, Jed > Rasula's ~The American Poetry Wax Museum~ and ~This Compost~. Jed and > Don have a long history as correspondents. Erik Sweet did a short > piece on Don for the Poetry Project Newsletter, April/May of last > year I think. > > I'm a great fan of ~Dimestore~, at any rate. Wasn't it reviewed in > the Village Voice back when? I'm sure others -- Pierre Joris in > particular -- can chime in here with more info. > > Best, > > Joe > >>Hello, >> >>I am looking to find out if anyone knows of any good criticism or essays >>on the work of Don Byrd, especially his larger work, The Great Dimmestore >>Centennial. >> >>I was recently made aware of one article, "In the Domain of the Common: a >>Consideration of Don Byrd's Work." Groundswell, v. 2, no. 3 (1987) by >>Michael Blitz, but have not been able to find it anywhere. >> >> >>Let me know if anyone can help. >> >>Best, >> >>Adam J. Morey > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 22:09:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Katalanche Press Subject: New from Katalanche: Book 5 by Alan Davies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline We are pleased to announce the availability of a new chapbook: BOOK 5 by Alan Davies $5, 44 pages Alan Davies is the author of many books of poetry, including Name (This), Signage (Roof), Candor (O Books) and Rave (Roof), as well as an untitled collaboration with photographer Mark Winterford published by Zasterle. He has written many critical articles and book reviews, and has lectured here and abroad. He was twice a recipient of Canada Council Grants for the Arts. His big book called Life is forthcoming from O Books. He is at work on a lifelong project consisting of individual books, of which Book 5 is the most recent installment to be published. From Book 5: Quill orphans no more being * See you cumbered won't talk emblems * Focus less gone over hunted * Comeuppance there or else you yours ---------------- Order yours here: http://katalanchepress1.blogspot.com Payments can be made on our website via paypal by clicking on the provided link, or by check made payable to Michael Carr sent to the address below. Prices are postpaid. Katalanche Press c/o Carr 9 Malcolm Road, #1 Cambridge, MA 02138 And stay tuned for another release announcement soon. Yours, Michael & Dottie katalanchepress@gmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 00:46:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Applegate Subject: 1st Audio Offering from *BAD NOISE* Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline At Bad Noise Productions, we have grown tired of the usual reading situation which has a tendency to produce droopy heads and meager excitements. That's why we have begun pioneering NOISE POETRY which involves a cavalcade of sounds and noises as accompaniment to interesting literary fare. Please visit www.badnoiseproductions.com for audio of the NOISE POETRY performance titled "Mr. Sound Boy King" recorded live at "The Confessional" reading series on 1 / 20 / 07. (All sounds produced using mouth + electricity.) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 03:41:29 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Crockett Subject: To obtain translation for publication permission, need help MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm need to obtain permission from the Dutch poet Hanny Michaelis in order to publish some translations of her work. Please backchannel with relevant information on where to start. JWC ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 10:10:10 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry In-Reply-To: <46f01cfefd1c346f3de0b60445784b7d@sfu.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Finnegans Wake has an apostrophe? George Bowering wrote: > having > lived in cork and donegal for years and hung out with musicians and > shanakee (sorry, i know that's not the spelling), finnegans wake > doesn't > make sense any other way to me. Finnegan's Wake hung out in Cork? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 03:24:12 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Homage to Edgardo Antonio Vigo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Below is an email from the Urugayan poet Clemente Padin (English at bottom) calling for contributions to a project in honour of the late Argentine poet Edgardo Antonio Vigo. You can view some of Vigo's work at http://www.eavigo.com.ar . ja HOMENAJE A EDGARDO ANTONIO VIGO Hace ya 10 años que se nos fue el artista y poeta argentino Edgardo Antonio Vigo, xilógrafo, poeta experimental, editor incansable, artecorreísta o "trabajador en la comunicación a distancia" como solía llamarlo, constructor de "objetos inútiles y máquinas extrañas", innovador constante, pensador y teórico y otras variedades no ovacionadas en arte. A comienzos de los 70s. se integra a los nacientes circuitos del arte correo siendo uno de sus más constantes creadores hasta el día de su muerte. La dictadura militar de su país le golpea duramente al hacer desaparecer a su hijo mayor, Palomo Vigo y, fue a partir de este desgraciado hecho, que su obra cobra un carácter fuertemente político a la par que aumentan sus contactos con el exterior, difundiendo la brutal represión y delitos de lesa humanidad de aquella feroz dictadura. Su poema visual "Sembrar la memoria" se convirtió en un emblema de la resistencia a la arbitrariedad e insanía institucional. En los últimos años, su obra vuelve a la luz, en la Fundación San Telmo (1991) en donde expone sus obras mayores y, en 1994, es seleccionado para integrar el envío argentino a la XXII Bienal de San Pablo, Brasil, logrando el reconocimiento mundial a ese nivel. Ante tan magno acontecimiento invitamos a los artistas y poetas de todo el mundo a adherirse a esta recuerdo humilde enviando una sola obra, de cualquier carácter (que pueda contenerse en uno o dos archivos JPEG de 200 Kb o en un WORD de 3 páginas, únicamente) que resuma su homenaje a tan insigne artista cuyo mayor mérito fue insuflarnos el afán por la libertad enfrentándonos a la disyuntiva de tener que optar entre las variadas posibilidades de significación (incluso de alterar el sentido) que ofrecían sus obras y asumir y concretar así, a través de la elección personal, nuestra genuina naturaleza hacia la libertad. Realizar los envíos por email a: cesar@boek861.com Fecha límite: 31 DE ABRIL 2007. Las obras serán desplegadas en http://boek861.com Si Usted desea enviar su homenaje en formato físico, enviar a: Clemente Padín C.C.Central 1211 11000 Montevideo - URUGUAY quien lo escaneará y lo enviará a BOEK861. Gracias de antemano. HOMAGE EDGARDO ANTONIO VIGO Edgardo Antonio Vigo died in 1997 when he was close to 70 years of age, in La Plata, the city in which he was born. An xylophonist, experimental poet, conceptualist, builder of "useless objects and strange machines", a constant innovator whose work was only very recently discovered, he has become a source of constant surprise, because of the almost indescribable nature of his proposals. He also cultivated forms, such as mail art and experimental poetry, which are even today considered sub-artistic, or simply not considered art at all by vernacular criticism. In the early 70s Vigo joined the nascent circuits of Mail Art, becoming one of its most active participants until the day of his death. The military dictatorship in his country dealt him a cruel blow when one of his sons, Palomo Vigo, disappeared and it is from that tragic event onwards that his work acquired a strong political tone, as he extended his contacts abroad, spreading information about the brutal repression and crimes against humanity committed by that fierce dictatorship. His visual poem Sembrar la Memoria (Sowing Memories) is emblematic in front injustice and institutional illness. In later years his work came to light again, when he exhibited individually at the San Telmo Foundation (1991) where he presented a retrospective of his major works. In 1994 he was chosen to be part of the Argentine contribution to the 22nd São Paulo Biennial (Brazil) where he received worldwide reconnaissance. In front so important event we invited artists and poets of everybody to adhere to this humble memory sending an only work, of any character (that could control in one or two JPEG files of 200 Kb or in a WORD file of 3 pages, only) that abridge his/her homage to so famous artist whose merit was give us the toil for liberty confronting us to opcional of having to opt between the varied possibilities of signification (included altering its sense) that his works offered and take on and state explicitly so, through the personal election, our genuine nature to freedom. Send your artwork by email to: cesar@boek861.com Deadline: April 30, 2007. All the artworks will be in http://boek861.com If you desire to send your homage in physical format, send: Clemente Padín C.C.Central 1211 11000 Montevideo - URUGUAY who will scanner it and will send it to BOEK861. Thanks in advance. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 04:20:50 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ram Devineni Subject: Leading Brazilian & Latin-American Filmmakers & Writers at the AIC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear Friends: I am proud to annouce some remarkable events happening at the AIC. Leading Brazilian & Latin-American Filmmakers & Writers at the AIC. Some of the best Brazilian and Latin-American filmmakers, poets, and writers will be holding workshops and lectures at the Academia Internacional de Cinema in February 2007. The directors of "Bus 174", "City of Men", "The Holy Girl" and "Madame Sata" are scheduled to appear at the AIC. More information about the free events can be found at http://www.aicinema.com.br FILM SCHEDULE Feb 5 at 20h30 Director of Photography Lina Chamie discusses how to transform your ideas into images. Feb 6 at 19h Director of Photography Carlos Ebert focuses on the craft of cinemaphotography. Feb 6 at 20h30 Paulo Morelli, the award winning director of "City of Men" and co-founder of O2 Filmes, which made the international hit "City of God." Feb 7 at 19h and 20h30 Filmmakers Philippi Barcisncky and Jeferson De Feb 8 at 19h Argentinean director Lucrecia Martel, who made the film, "Swamp" which was screened at the Berlin, Sundance, Havana, and Toulouse film festivals. Her most recent film "La Nina Santa (The Holy Girl)," is a reflection about adolescence, and the awakening of desire and faith, and selected in competition at the 2004 Festival de Cannes. She will focus on her work and the art of directing. Feb 9 at 19h Filmmaker Rogerio Guidette Feb 9 at 20h30 Documentary filmmaker Felipe Lacerda will be discussing his film "Bus 174", which is about the hijacking of a bus in Rio and the media fiasco and violent outcome resulting from it. Shown at the 2003 Sundance Film Festival and won best documentary prizes at the Rio de Janeiro International Film Festival, Miami International Film Festival and the Sao Paulo International Film Festival. Feb. 12 at 19h and 20h30 Cinemaphotographer Katia Coelho discusses her craft and documentary filmmaker Andrea Tonacci lectures on expanding the documentary film. Feb 13 at 19h and 20h30 Film critic Eliane Caffe and Jorge Bodanski continues the discussion on expanding the documentary film. Feb 14 at 19h Marcelo Rezende lecture on the films and imagination of movie/music video diretor Michel Gondry. Feb 14 at 20h30 Filmmaker Karim Ainouz discusses his film "Madame Sata," which won prizes at the Chicago International Film Festival, Havana Film Festival and the Sao Paulo Association of Art Critics Award for Best Director. He co-wrote "Lower City" and "Behind the Sun." LITERATURE SCHEDULE Feb 7 at 19h30 Poetry reading featuring contemporary Brazilian poets Rodrigo Petronio, Micheliny Verunschk and Flavia Rocha. Feb 8 at 19h30 Roundtable discussion with literary magazine editors Paulo Ferraz (Sebastiao), Elisa Andrade Buzzo (Mininas), Andrea Catropa (O Casulo), and Ademir Demarchi (Babel). Feb 13 at 19h30 Reading & discussion featuring contemporary fiction writers Marcelino Freire, Marcia Tiburi, Michel Laub, Marcelo Rezende and Marcelo Carneiro da Cunha . Feb 14 at 19h30 Special evening with non-fiction writer and editor Wagner Carelli . Feb 15 at 19h30 Rountable discussion with leading literary publishers Rogerio Eduardo Alves (Planeta) and Fernando Paixao (Atica). Daily Reception at 17h Telefone: 11 3826 7883 e-mail: info@aicinema.com.br Please send future emails to devineni@rattapallax.com for press ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 08:41:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: mr. tumor ms. whiteshort mrs. ocean MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed New material on YouTube, www.asondheim.org, and nikuko.blogspot.com - mr. tumor ms. whiteshort mrs. ocean mr. tumor watch ms. whiteshort up and at'em ms. whiteshort watch shudder tumor tumor almost fall off mr. tumor bang bang bang you gant get getter gan ghis says mr. tumor shake that tumor mr. tumor watch that short ms. whiteshort gang gang gang mr. tumor gang gang gang ms. whiteshort bang bang bang http://www.asondheim.org/shudder.mp4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVoZviTXg_4 YouTube ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 09:36:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Re: OOPs -Re: Audience & publishing In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stephen Thanks, in turn, for amplifying on what I wrote and extending the discussion into other areas. I'm still adapting to the increased speed, myself. I love the fast turnaround time on zine and book submissions, but I do find myself wondering if the new book I've published book has become "old news" before I've even had a chance to send out review copies. The literary world used to have a very slow pace, but that's changed with the latest technological developments. In many ways I prefer the faster pace, but I'm still adapting to it. Yes, the historical interplay is dead. Submissions of my first unpublished novel, completed in the mid-1970s, received personal replies from agents, whereas my most recent submissions have received form rejection slips. Editors in the major houses seem to have transferred the process of screening books to agents. I don't even know if publishers have staff to read through the slushpile. Instead, they rejected un-agented submissions out of hand. I agree that a good editor can be invaluable, spot flaws that hide in one's blind spot. But a bad editor can misunderstand a work's intent and insist on revisions that severely diminish the work. I've regarded editors as a 50-50 situation. Some help, some hurt. It's a mixed bag. I agree about the review situation. I've received some tremendous reviews, but, generally speaking, poets these days have very few reviewers whose words can launch a career (of sorts). The magazines you mentioned have done a good job, but they don't scratch the surface of the good writing being produced today. The explosion of poetry into different styles and genres over the past 40 years has affected the reception poets receive, as well. There's no more room at the top for recognition, but many more qualified poets are looking for their spot up there. Online publishing has allowed poetry to expand, but I agree that the reviews and distribution haven't kept pace. Some of the best poets I know only manage to receive 5 reviews---at most--- for wonderful works. This limits how many people can become aware of the work and reduces word-of-mouth, as well. I find the bookstore situation depressing because I love to browse and buy on impulse. Now, I find most bookstores don't have much that interests me, and when I see something that does, I save money ordering a new or used copy online. I do hope that libraries will buy e-books for their collections, but I haven't seen libraries purchasing POD books as yet. The situation will change as POD becomes more acceptable and the POD publishers acquire reputations for the work they publish. For this to occur, more reviewers and distributors will have to appear on the scene. I have no suggestions on this one. But the information we do have, as you say, can be gathered easily online and cross-referenced. I still prefer to read from the book instead of the screen, and I think the book will continue to exist because many others feel the same way. The path up to recognition from the glut of publication may take a very different path (or paths) from the ones we're accustomed to. It's too early to say whether it will be better or worse. But the bright side of the new technology is that it creates an alterative means for creating and preserving literature that the traditional venues no longer pay attention to. I do hope some others will share their opinions. Vernon Frazer http://vernonfrazer.com -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Stephen Vincent Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 6:41 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: OOPs -Re: Audience & publishing I put the previous email on some kind of 'draft' hold, and it hatched early. If still interested, jump to the middle (RESTART) if you already read the first part! --- Thanks, Vernon, for the informed sincerity of your response here. As both a poet and sometimes publisher over a big chunk of time, I think the still relatively new electronic publishing modes are still much in transition - at least I like to think so. From the advantage point of view, there is: 1. the global (geographic) spread of the makers, the poets as well as the audience . The disadvantage there is that the network is bloated and too fast - which, ironically, can create a disaffection, or disinterest - as what happens to me often now. I remember the days of very slow overseas mail - say, two months to get a copy of Work magazine from Detroit, or a new Jack Spicer book, to the outback of Nigeria. But boy did I read every page with an almost ferocious attention. Now I am frequently numbed by getting too much from everywhere. (But then there is Ron Silliman turning on his engines every day, enlivened rather than numbed or complaining about the seeming siege, it seems, and I suspect many are grateful for the attentions and sales benefits he is able to spread). 2. In the tangible world of trade books, publishing is ideally a dance - with probably equally share pain and pleasure - between writer-editor/publisher- Design/ production promotion- media reviewers Distriubtion - Book fairs, sales reps and store outlets. Much of that interplay is now historically dead. The role of the editor is decidedly absent from most publishing houses which is a sadness. The loss of this dynamic creates bloated, flat books, or dull books. A good editor is like a good conductor - insuring a book's rhythm and pace, etc. (A poet who acts as his/her own editor is like the old saw about the doctor who treats himself). As much as I like publishing online, only rarely do I get a good editor who has a sense of shape, most recently, Tim Atkins at Onedit. The digital medium invites obesity, a limitlessness. But, I suspect, the confusion of "the value of information" has been confused with the poem and the book as an object(s) within themselves - objects with a history and tradition of book making which the hype around "information" and volume have replaced in an aesthetically unrewarding way. Design/ Production. Yes, I think a lot of the online mags and ebooks are beginning to look great (Bridge, Fascicles, Masthead, etc.) The much easier implementation of images gives new breathing room to old fashioned "book illustration." Again I think online design is an emerging medium of its own and will only get better. (RESTART!! - IF YOU READ THE FIRST PART) Promotion/ Reviews Poetry - at least stuff on the edge -has been so ill served by traditional print media. However, at its best, the online has not replaced the now practically dead world of large circulation newspaper reviews. To my knowledge, we do not have either poet critic of a large stature matched with a review organ of large mainstream stature to which the combination of readers/reviewers and review can go to. The sad irony is that we have a large number of significant (great, whatever) poets and no great review media to correspond to their accomplishments. ( NYR, NYT, Nation, etc. will not do the job. Witness whoever he was (David somebody) reviewing Frost and trying to toss a blink to M Perloff, and experimental poets - that was kind of off putting, awkward, etc., to say the least. On the other hand, Ron Silliman, Rain Taxi, blog commentators, etc. have done much to bring attention to good books that would never have hit the 'hierarchical' radar of NYT, etc. Distribution through traditional bookstore media is practically dead. Amazon is devouring bookstore after bookstore. The aesthetic etc pleasures of looking at poetry books, and all the various associations that can come from the arrangements of books on a shelf is more than not, a history. (Even in libraries, as libraries begin to go to ebooks for their collections, and small presses no doubt will go to ebook and ebook modes of distribution and sale and the emergence of comfortable ebook readers (through ebrary, google, etc.) How any poetry book will emerge thru these new networks is no doubt a developing challenge. There are lots of attractions for academia (professor made anthology/readers will be much more convenient), cross referencing a poets entire works will be convenient, too, and access to a range of review and critical responses to a poet's work will be easier. This is all fated, it appears definite. However, the principles of the good printed book (well edited, designed, promoted, distributed and intelligently reviewed) are not going to disappear. In this new democratic technology - which everyone can appear as a poet with a digital ebook - it's going to be an interesting adventure to see the ways in which a book can emerge from the pack with some of the traditional values still in tact. These are my views. In terms of the poetry world, it would be of value, I suspect to hear from Brent Cunningham or Laura Moriarty to see how they envision the future among the new givens. Stephen Vincent http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > Hi Ann > > I've self-published 7 poetry books, 3 novels and 3 recordings. Print > publishers have published 2 books. POD publishers have published 2, with 2 > more on the way. I like to think this gives me some knowledge of the > subject, though the scenario is probably changing as we speak. > > In today's publishing climate, I have no choice but to be the publisher of > last resort. > > As a self-publisher, my books don't sell very well, but I do have > distribution channels for any orders that might come in. Every year I manage > to sell a few copies to college libraries. > > My print books published by a small press found their way to college > libraries regularly, probably because Potes & Poets was an established press > and because whoever did the ordering could do a mass order of poetry books > through SPD. > > MY POD books have appeared without any problems, probably because I do my > own typesetting; I don't know anybody else who wants the job or could do it > as well, unfortunately, it's probably cost me some publishing opportunities > with some presses. The POD books don't make it to the college libraries or > receive distribution beyond the site where they're sold, e.g., www.lulu.com > or www.cafepress.com. > > > The biggest problem we face continues to be distribution of our work. > > Some POD publishers, such as Geoffrey Gatza of BlazeVox, are finding ways to > > improve distribution so that people can find the books at Amazon.com, if not > on the shelf at the local chain or indie bookstore. More publishers might be > doing similar things as I write this. > > Whether the works are self-published, print, or POD, the reviews I receive > are about the same, although some magazines seem to avoid reviewing > self-published books. > > If the reviews are accurate, I can't say---in relation to my own work, > anyway---that editor and publishers in print or online have more acuity. > I think POD publishers might be more open to publishing edgy work because > they don't have to endure the costs associated with print publishing. > Practical matters involving money might influence or outweigh artistic > judgment. > > I do think ezines deserve parity with print zines because they're creating a > literary culture online that is more adventurous than what I read in many > print zines. > > I receive the most satisfaction when somebody else publishes me because > it makes me feel that somebody other than me thinks my work is worth > publishing. Although I feel great when a writer sends me a complimentary > book because he considers me "one of the real ones," I don't feel too > satisfied when his publisher returns a manuscript I've submitted on the hope > that the editors will feel the same way about my work as the author does. > > Given the nature of the publishing business in a time when corporations > rule, I think the notion that a self-published or POD-published small press > differs in any significant way from the more established small presses > should be discarded. Most of us are really on our own as writers, regardless > of publisher, and have to work every possible angle to get our work out. > > Nobody has a monopoly on editorial acuity. > > The less work I have to do in relation to publishing and promoting my books, > the more satisfaction I receive. But I'm not holding my breath while waiting > for a publisher to tell me, "You're great, baby, Now, just sit back and > we'll do it all for you., and give you royalties on top of it" > > It makes for nice day dreams, but that's about it. > > I don't have time to read many blogs, but I wouldn't sell women writers > short. Through her blog, Eileen Tabios has been a great supporter of my > work, almost reviving a book of mine that I'd pretty much considered dead. > She has an excellent site. I think other are better qualified to address the > subject of blogs. > > There's my two cents (adjusted for inflation. > > Vernon > http://vernonfrazer.com > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of Ann Bogle > Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 11:35 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Audience & publishing > > Last year, there was a good thread among poets about the difference for > them > in publishing in online v. print publications. Mostly, the biggest > difference was that in print publication, more attention was paid to > precision in > line breaks, layout, and font -- that was their overall experience. Now I > want > to ask how writers and poets feel about self-publishing when they encounter > > it and at their own websites v. publishing in online publications. It > seems > sometimes such a small psychological difference in transitting between the > wr > iter's own website v. an official publication. What is the bias that > suggests > that people who edit other writers' work are somehow stoic for doing so but > > that writers (most editors are both) are somehow vainglorious for going > into > print? Sometimes I would like to know if it is true -- sometimes it IS > true > -- that the editors of online publications have more editorial acuity than > the writers do themselves, or if it's a "hands" argument -- having someone > select you and do it for you by definition carries more weight and > prestige. It > is the same argument, in smaller and subtler form, inherent in the > favoritism > shown for large houses. In general, it is taking time (as should be > expected) for online publications to gain the acclaim of print publications > -- even > though smaller print publications are invariably hard to find and therefore > > are restricted to small library audiences of 2,000 or fewer readers. > Weblogs > are usually female (like the Buckthorn in botany), and so therefore are > deemed "low" as art goes. I find certain conversational weblogs to be pure > and > engrossing. I think they may be higher art than some people tend to > realize, > depending on their creator. It is an exciting way to cut out middle men > and > bullshit. It is a species of self-publishing. Topics weblogs are arguably > > valuable to more people. Other thoughts? Should it be harder to access > online publications to increase the sensation that they are not > self-published, > that they have prestige? Should they be umbrella-listed at sites such as > webdelsol? > > AMB ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 08:39:39 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Halle Subject: Jackie K. White @ Seven Corners Comments: To: Adam Fieled , Anne Waldman , Jules Gibbs , Ross Gay , Alehouse Editor , Alex Frankel , Andrew Lundwall , Bob Archambeau , Bill Garvey , "Biddinger, Mary" , Bhisham Bherwani , Becky Hilliker , "Bowen, Kristy" , brandihoman@hotmail.com, cahnmann@uga.edu, chard deNiord , Cheryl Keeler , Chris Glomski , Chris Goodrich , Craig Halle , Daniel Godston , Dan Pedersen , Diana Collins , eeelalala@hotmail.com, ela kotkowska , "f.lord@snhu.edu" , Garin Cycholl , Garrett Brown , Grant Haughton , James DeFrain , Jeffrey Grybash , jeremy@invisible-city.com, John Krumberger , joel craig , Judith Vollmer , John Matthias , JOHN TIPTON , "K. R." , Kate Doane , Julianna McCarthy , Kristin Prevallet , Larry Sawyer & Lina ramona Vitkauskas , "Lea C. Deschenes" , "lesliesysko@hotmail.com" , Malia Hwang-Carlos , Margaret Doane , Marie U , Mark Tardi , MartinD , "Odelius, Kristy L." , Michael OLeary , Paul Nelson , "pba1@surewest.net" , Peter Sommers , Randolph Healy , Truth Thomas , timothy daisy , "william.allegrezza@sbcglobal.net" , "White, Jackie" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline *Jackie K. White* is the featured poet this week at *Seven Corners* ( www.sevencornerspoetry.blogspot.com). Take a minute to check out her fine poems. Best, Steve Halle Editor, *Seven Corners* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 10:25:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: OOPs -Re: Audience & publishing In-Reply-To: <20070206143637.DNFA1547.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net@HPLASERJ> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I've heard others say this, as well, but I don;'t know on what authority. The last 4 books from Junction Press have been produced POD, and all future books will be. Two of them have sold well enough to go into second printings. A great many publishers have gone POD. Even many of the major commercial houses now print their second printings POD, because like the rest of us they enjoy saving on storage costs. Libraries don't seem to mind--they buy with as much or as little alacrity as they did books printed by offset. Why not? It's very hard even to tell if a book was printed POD (and of course the librarian hasn't seen the book before ordering). Mark >I do hope that libraries will buy e-books for their collections, but I >haven't seen libraries purchasing POD books as yet. The situation will >change as POD becomes more acceptable and the POD publishers acquire >reputations for the work they publish. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 10:51:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Re: OOPs -Re: Audience & publishing In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20070206100458.03a3fad8@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark I'm glad to stand corrected about libraries purchasing POD books. I think POD books have covers that feel more like plastic than paper, but I think this makes them a little more durable. Vernon http://vernonfrazer.com -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Mark Weiss Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 10:25 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: OOPs -Re: Audience & publishing I've heard others say this, as well, but I don;'t know on what authority. The last 4 books from Junction Press have been produced POD, and all future books will be. Two of them have sold well enough to go into second printings. A great many publishers have gone POD. Even many of the major commercial houses now print their second printings POD, because like the rest of us they enjoy saving on storage costs. Libraries don't seem to mind--they buy with as much or as little alacrity as they did books printed by offset. Why not? It's very hard even to tell if a book was printed POD (and of course the librarian hasn't seen the book before ordering). Mark >I do hope that libraries will buy e-books for their collections, but I >haven't seen libraries purchasing POD books as yet. The situation will >change as POD becomes more acceptable and the POD publishers acquire >reputations for the work they publish. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 11:00:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: OOPs -Re: Audience & publishing In-Reply-To: <20070206155157.GCTR1547.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net@HPLASERJ> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Covers haven't been a problem for several years. They're printed on exactly the same stock as offset books, and they're laminated or varnished with exactly the same materials. I assume you're thinking about matt-finished covers, which have a waxy feel. That's the publisher's decision. For a while it was something of a fad. Appropriate in terms of design for some books, but the surface tends to damage easily. Again, it's a choice available regardless of how the book is printed. Mark At 10:51 AM 2/6/2007, you wrote: >Mark >I'm glad to stand corrected about libraries purchasing POD books. > >I think POD books have covers that feel more like plastic than paper, but I >think this makes them a little more durable. > >Vernon >http://vernonfrazer.com > > >-----Original Message----- >From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On >Behalf Of Mark Weiss >Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 10:25 AM >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: OOPs -Re: Audience & publishing > >I've heard others say this, as well, but I don;'t know on what >authority. The last 4 books from Junction Press have been produced >POD, and all future books will be. Two of them have sold well enough >to go into second printings. A great many publishers have gone POD. >Even many of the major commercial houses now print their second >printings POD, because like the rest of us they enjoy saving on storage >costs. > >Libraries don't seem to mind--they buy with as much or as little >alacrity as they did books printed by offset. Why not? It's very hard >even to tell if a book was printed POD (and of course the librarian >hasn't seen the book before ordering). > >Mark > > > > > > >I do hope that libraries will buy e-books for their collections, but I > >haven't seen libraries purchasing POD books as yet. The situation will > >change as POD becomes more acceptable and the POD publishers acquire > >reputations for the work they publish. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 11:04:01 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ann Bogle Subject: Re: phobia... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/5/2007 2:08:03 P.M. Central Standard Time, frazerv@BELLSOUTH.NET writes: While I pay a heavy price socially for it, and the tics and depression are less than fun, I don't consider myself disabled. "Society" does. If they want to send me a disability check for having a "disorder" that I call a "condition," I'll take the money and mutter under my breath about "reparations." I didn't write the definition, and all of us share its consequences. Vernon, that's a brilliant paragraph in what you encapsulate of that experience. The taxpayer, if you've met him, is a very mean man. He works everywhere you need to go for the decade following graduate school: the doctor's office and the pharmacy and the employment rehabilitation office. The taxpayer's wife and ex-wife and girlfriend also work there. The taxpayer's daughter is a rude girl. They work at the "bank." They support war, reject religion, and turn on people who seek services. They oppose arts and higher education. They catch people at running errands during day hours. They put bans on smoking to try to curb local taxes, including a theater tax that I love to pay by smoking natural cigarettes. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 11:20:06 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ann Bogle Subject: Re: OOPs -Re: Audience & publishing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I recently had the chance to hear read and eat dinner with an old friend from school days, whose book is a bestseller in India; I don't know how it's doing here, but it's written in English. A super nice guy who also has always known quite a lot about technology and the film business through his mother and sister. He says that the plastic book is coming to the mass market and that they are bracing themselves for change, and I said that I had been watching the small and electronic press world for some time in poetry, especially. The only division is prestige -- between paper and business handling it and webdesign and own handling it. As the mass market goes increasingly electronic, which is coming, the indies need to define their turf more clearly, I think, to defend their prestige and their designs. Maybe by gallery shows. Beautiful, limited edition printed books. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 10:25:10 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: phobia... In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" i'm a taxpayer. i'm single, female, anti-war and support the arts and higher education; in fact the latter is my workplace. as a taxpayer i feel the government owes it to me to endorse and legislate in favor of my values: peace, creativity, freedom, decent working and living conditions for all people, good care and education for kids and an aspiration to eliminate the suffering of all sentient beings. At 11:04 AM -0500 2/6/07, Ann Bogle wrote: > >In a message dated 2/5/2007 2:08:03 P.M. Central Standard Time, >frazerv@BELLSOUTH.NET writes: > >While I pay a heavy price socially for it, and the tics and depression are >less than fun, I don't consider myself disabled. "Society" does. If they >want to send me a disability check for having a "disorder" that I call a >"condition," I'll take the money and mutter under my breath about >"reparations." I didn't write the definition, and all of us share its >consequences. > > > >Vernon, that's a brilliant paragraph in what you encapsulate of that >experience. > >The taxpayer, if you've met him, is a very mean man. He works everywhere >you need to go for the decade following graduate school: the doctor's office >and the pharmacy and the employment rehabilitation office. The >taxpayer's wife >and ex-wife and girlfriend also work there. The taxpayer's daughter is a >rude girl. They work at the "bank." They support war, reject religion, and >turn on people who seek services. They oppose arts and higher >education. They >catch people at running errands during day hours. They put bans on smoking >to try to curb local taxes, including a theater tax that I love to pay by >smoking natural cigarettes. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 09:28:24 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Adam Fieled Subject: Robert Archambeau, Aaron Belz on PFS Post MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Check out new work from Aaron Belz and Robert Archambeau on PFS Post: http://www.artrecess.blogspot.com Thank you, peeps.... http://www.adamfieled.blogspot.com --------------------------------- We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 11:51:34 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Tom W. Lewis" Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I first became aware of the haiku form via an interview with Laurie Anderson in the early 80s... she claimed to have written "fake haikus" for her song Kokoku (the interview is archived here: http://www.archive.org/details/LaurieAndersonOTG) at least she didn't claim they were "real" haikus -- does anyone recognize the Japanese text she quotes in the lyrics below? Kokoku I come very briefly to this place.=20 I watch it move. I watch it shake.=20 Kumowaku yamano. Watashino sakebi.=20 Watashino koewo. Ushano kokoku.=20 Watashiwa sokoni. Watashiwa asobu.=20 Mountain with clouds. A cry. My voice. Home of the brave. I'm here now. And lost. They say the dead will rise again. And here they come now.=20 Strange animals out of the Ice Age. And they stare at you.=20 Dumbfounded. Like big mistakes. And we say: Keep cool.=20 Maybe if we pretend this never happened, they'll all just go away.=20 Watashiwa sokoni. Watashiwa asobu.=20 Mewotoji. Mewotoji. Kikunowa kotori.=20 Watashino sakebi. Watashino koewo. ... -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Michael Dylan Welch Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 2:08 To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match =20 Sure, one can use any formal restraint as a poetic game, as a challenge of =20 sorts. But as challenges go, in haiku, the syllabic challenge (whatever pattern=20 you might choose) is mighty superficial. Indeed, in my years of teaching=20 haiku, I've seen that it's the easiest thing in the world for students of nearly=20 all grade levels to count their pretty little syllables. Why brag about pulling on your underwear all by yourself when your hair is on fire? It's a=20 trivial "discipline." And these same haiku, while hitting that trivial target --=20 again, an incorrect target in English -- are widely missing the more important=20 targets. And most often, these proud 5-7-5ers are completely oblivious to=20 those other targets -- ones that are actually more important. Why bother with=20 arbirary constraints for haiku when there are far more serious, literary,=20 challenging, and effective constraints that you miss in the process of focusing=20 on 5-7-5?!? =20 It can be fun to write cinquains or iambic pentameter, or the recent "Fib"=20 form (counting syllables in subsequent lines to match the Fibonacci sequence).=20 But when it comes to haiku, writing 5-7-5 syllables in English isn't the=20 same as following the prescribed syllables of cinquains or pentameter or Fibs.=20 That's because following 5-7-5 assumes a "correctness" for that pattern in =20 English, which isn't accurate when it's really a borrowed form. Yes, sonnets are =20 borrowed from Italian to English, but at least that's the same alphabet, so=20 it's not fraught with the problems of translating from Japanese to English.=20 It's folly to translate the number (5-7-5) without thinking more deeply about=20 what is being counted. Yet that is precisely what has happened that lead to=20 the false conception of haiku being 5-7-5 syllables in English. Quite simply,=20 when we apply that pattern to English syllables, we miss the boat. It's simplistic and naive. =20 A person can do whatever they like and call it haiku (Lord knows that's happened plenty enough). If you're having fun, knock yourself out. But if you're =20 writing 5-7-5 haiku, it's best to be aware of how you're writing a poem that's=20 markedly longer than what is expressed in a Japanese haiku (not all of which=20 are 5-7-5, by the way). It's best to be aware that you're writing in a=20 pattern that, for good reason, pretty much ALL of the leading haiku poets writing=20 in English do not follow. It's best to be aware that writing 5-7-5 frequently=20 creates artificial syntax and awkward line breaks purely for an unnecessary=20 constraint while more important strategies (also constraints) are completely=20 missed. Indeed, most 5-7-5 haiku writers tend to be completely unaware of the=20 other strategies necessary for traditional haiku, though perhaps that's a=20 separate problem, although it's frequently caused by a belief that 5-7-5 is all=20 there is to it. In any event, if one aims at seasonality and a two-part juxtapositional structure, and employs objective sensory imagery, you can let =20 the rest of form take care of itself (organically). But of course, there's more =20 to it than that -- writing in the present tense, no titles, no rhyme, seldom=20 any similes or metaphors, employing fragments rather than full sentences,=20 employing allusion, and more. And perhaps the most important aspect of all --=20 implication. It's very hard to do well, to hint at something that the reader=20 can figure out on his own, making a leap of understanding that's made possible=20 because of your restraint as a poet, because you deliberately left something=20 out. As I like to emphasize in haiku workshops, don't write about your=20 emotion, write about what caused your emotion. Then, if you do it right, the reader=20 can feel what you felt without your having to say so. But of course all of=20 this is missed by those who think haiku is only a 5-7-5 syllable-counting=20 poetry trick. Some "challenge." =20 As I say in the title of one of my haiku lectures: "Haiku: It's Bigger Than =20 You Think." Yet of course, it's also smaller than most English speakers think,=20 too. =20 Michael =20 P.S. Nearly every serious haiku poet I know has had a progression in their =20 haiku -- and I'm talking about many hundreds of leading haiku poets who I pay =20 attention to, perhaps even thousands. They nearly all started out writing=20 5-7-5, as did I. And then they progressed to learning the more important aspects=20 of the genre (and haiku is best thought of as a genre of poetry, of which=20 "form" is just one aspect). At this point, nearly all of them stop writing in=20 the 5-7-5 pattern. The few exceptions to this progression include those who=20 went straight to avoiding 5-7-5 in the first place. But there are clear reasons=20 for this progression. It's not that 5-7-5 is "abandoned." Rather, it is apprehended as something that was inappropriate in the first place, and causes=20 many problems in English. Higher targets are sought -- ones, in fact, that turn=20 out to be far more challenging and require far more discipline. If 5-7-5 in=20 English serves any useful purpose, it is purely as the first stepping-stone on=20 a long path. But, alas, too many people, even otherwise accomplished poets,=20 stop at just that first stepping stone with their haiku. =20 =20 In a message dated 02-Feb-07 9:01:40 PM Pacific Standard Time, =20 LISTSERV@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU writes: Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 10:41:59 -0600 From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match While I think it's a good idea to understand that 5-7-5 is simply a=20 convenience of sorts, even something of a mistranslation (even =20 something of a cultural oversight), I feel about this pretty much the =20 way I feel about bending any formal rule. I.e., it's fun to use =20 5-7-5 as an arbitrary constraint in composing haiku, just as it's fun =20 to use 14 lines as an arbitrary constraint in composing sonnets. =20 (Which latter might not result in 14 lines, ysee, but that won't keep =20 me from calling it a sonnet.) Granted, correcting the misconception is one thing. But having fun=20 with same is quite another, which, to me, is one reason I write=20 poetry. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 12:24:32 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rebecca Weaver Subject: Issue 2 Midway now up! In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hello all, the second issue of Midway is now up! We are also accepting submissions for upcoming issues. Please see our "submissions" page for more details. Best, B Weaver ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 13:31:21 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "C. A. Conrad" Subject: ** friends of poetry ** Frank Sherlock EMERGENCY FUND ** please read ASAP!****** MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ** friends of poetry ** Frank Sherlock EMERGENCY FUND ** please read ASAP!****** The following link is for everyone to use on blogs and other online media: _http://phillysound.blogspot.com/2007_02_01_phillysound_archive.html#1170786058 81722949_ (http://phillysound.blogspot.com/2007_02_01_phillysound_archive.html#117078605881722949) Our good friend Frank Sherlock was rushed to the hospital January 22nd with a sudden and mysterious illness which turned out to be a serious case of meningitis. He needed emergency surgery, and also suffered a heart attack and kidney failure as a result of symptoms related to the illness. The timing could not be worse as this attack of meningitis happened during the two month window in which Frank is without health insurance. His friends have come together to help raise money at this critical time. We are reaching out to other friends and the poetry community on Frank's behalf. Please consider sending donations for his hospital bills, physical therapy, as well as his very expensive medications and other needs. If you can make a donation by check or money order at this time please send it to Frank's longtime friend Matthew McGoldrick. VERY IMPORTANT: Please make check or money order out to Matthew McGoldrick, and send to his address: 1504 Morris St. Philadelphia PA 19145 We will be having a benefit show in Philadelphia in the very near future. If you would like to be notified of that event please e-mail _CAConrad13@aol.com_ (mailto:CAConrad13@aol.com) for the details. Frank's poetry page can be found here: _http://FrankSherlock.blogspot.com_ (http://franksherlock.blogspot.com/) , and he can also be found at _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ (http://phillysound.blogspot.com/) THANKS SO MUCH FOR YOUR SUPPORT, AND PLEASE SPREAD THE WORD, from the Friends of Frank Sherlock ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 13:32:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: Boog City's Email List Dead, Please Resend Yr Name & Email MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes"; format="flowed" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hi all, my powerbook, keeper of all that is boog, recently died, and although a good chunk of the data was recoverable (thank you tekserve) i did lose my entire email address book. so if you were on the boog email list, or just want to be, email me your full name and email backchannel to editor@boogcity.com. (this especially holds true to new yorkers, as i send out local emails that don't get posted on this here list.) thanks and hope yre all swell. as ever, david ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 11:36:32 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: charles alexander Subject: Re: OOPs -Re: Audience & publishing In-Reply-To: <20070206155157.GCTR1547.ibm57aec.bellsouth.net@HPLASERJ> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I think we should just call POD productions "books." Whether letterpress, offset-print, desktop-printed, POD-processed, or whatever other technology, these are all books. Vernon, you may be experiencing covers that come from a particular book manufacturer. I have seen covers on POD-produced books that have been thinner & much less durable than those on offset-printed books, and I have seen very durable covers on POD-produced books, but mostly I see covers that feel exactly the same as offset-printed covers. And I know for a fact that the same paper can be used for digitally printed covers as for offset-printed covers. And of course POD-production is not limited to paperback books. One can have case-bound, cloth-covered books that were printed via POD technologies, too. I will echo Mark, i.e. I know for a fact that libraries (college, university, & public libraries) buy books produced via POD technology. I don't know if they always know that is what they are buying, but I don't know if that matters. Also I'd add that a lot of university presses are using POD technology for their books, allowing them to print shorter runs for niche books that otherwise, given current costs of producing books and maintaining inventory, simply wouldn't be published. Charles At 08:51 AM 2/6/2007, you wrote: >Mark >I'm glad to stand corrected about libraries purchasing POD books. > >I think POD books have covers that feel more like plastic than paper, but I >think this makes them a little more durable. > >Vernon >http://vernonfrazer.com > > >-----Original Message----- >From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On >Behalf Of Mark Weiss >Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 10:25 AM >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: OOPs -Re: Audience & publishing > >I've heard others say this, as well, but I don;'t know on what >authority. The last 4 books from Junction Press have been produced >POD, and all future books will be. Two of them have sold well enough >to go into second printings. A great many publishers have gone POD. >Even many of the major commercial houses now print their second >printings POD, because like the rest of us they enjoy saving on storage >costs. > >Libraries don't seem to mind--they buy with as much or as little >alacrity as they did books printed by offset. Why not? It's very hard >even to tell if a book was printed POD (and of course the librarian >hasn't seen the book before ordering). > >Mark > > > > > > >I do hope that libraries will buy e-books for their collections, but I > >haven't seen libraries purchasing POD books as yet. The situation will > >change as POD becomes more acceptable and the POD publishers acquire > >reputations for the work they publish. charles alexander / chax press fold the book inside the book keep it open always read from the inside out speak then ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 10:40:32 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: Ebooks - OOPs -Re: Audience & publishing In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20070206105344.05bd18a0@earthlink.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Yes, as Ann Bogle suggests, the industry (Apple and Sony, for sure) are working madly refining portable ebook readers - ones that will replace and/or parallel textbooks and all other manner of print production. It's a forgone conclusion that the global marketplace in books will function via these devices. I suspect that they will be wireless - if not already - and it will be possible to download whatever book you want (for a price) or portions of books into the readers. (Individuals will have monthly payment contracts with ebook providers - say, Baker & Taylor or Blackwells - by which they bring up books much in the way we pay the phone company.) The Libraries will have contracts with the ebook providers(again B & T, Blackwells, ebrary and others (who will have contracts with the publishers) that will enable POD production of titles they will want preserved on their shelves for us old fashioned people who might want to check out an actual book! I suspect most small press poetry book and magazine publishers are not yet into this loop in which work is represented on say ebrary, B&T or Blackwells. The big ones are, for example, UC Press. At this point in time, it only requires a PDF version of the work to become an ebook, and places like ebrary are usually eager for anything they can acquire and represent. There is usually no cost for this representation. The Publisher and provider make their money through the end user. (It's not like your PDF takes up warehouse space). (ebrary, for example, has 120,000 titles in ebook format. For purposes of research, ebrary also comes with cross-referencing searches across the entire list, instant bibliographic notations, etc., etc. And ebrary now has partnerships with both B&T and Blackwells, as well as 'book' distributors on other continents.) There is, for one example an international beauty about it by which work becomes globally accessible. Bilingual editions of poetry, for example, can be seen in either country and is suddenly accessible to a much larger audiences in either language. So, if I were running a small press, I would get Large be making ebooks with revenue producing contracts with the Big distributors (ebrary, B&T, and Blackwells). Google's part in this is still up in the land of dispute as to whether or not they are genuinely publisher friendly, but I assume they are working on competitive modes of representation and sale of copyrighted works. Again, I would suggest it would be a good idea to get SPD to weigh in on this as to how they see this new ebook/e-reader situation working for small presses. As much as many of us love tangible books, these developments represent a big chunk of the future. Stephen Vincent http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > Covers haven't been a problem for several years. They're printed on > exactly the same stock as offset books, and they're laminated or > varnished with exactly the same materials. > > I assume you're thinking about matt-finished covers, which have a > waxy feel. That's the publisher's decision. For a while it was > something of a fad. Appropriate in terms of design for some books, > but the surface tends to damage easily. Again, it's a choice > available regardless of how the book is printed. > > Mark > > At 10:51 AM 2/6/2007, you wrote: >> Mark >> I'm glad to stand corrected about libraries purchasing POD books. >> >> I think POD books have covers that feel more like plastic than paper, but I >> think this makes them a little more durable. >> >> Vernon >> http://vernonfrazer.com >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On >> Behalf Of Mark Weiss >> Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 10:25 AM >> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >> Subject: Re: OOPs -Re: Audience & publishing >> >> I've heard others say this, as well, but I don;'t know on what >> authority. The last 4 books from Junction Press have been produced >> POD, and all future books will be. Two of them have sold well enough >> to go into second printings. A great many publishers have gone POD. >> Even many of the major commercial houses now print their second >> printings POD, because like the rest of us they enjoy saving on storage >> costs. >> >> Libraries don't seem to mind--they buy with as much or as little >> alacrity as they did books printed by offset. Why not? It's very hard >> even to tell if a book was printed POD (and of course the librarian >> hasn't seen the book before ordering). >> >> Mark >> >> >> >> >> >>> I do hope that libraries will buy e-books for their collections, but I >>> haven't seen libraries purchasing POD books as yet. The situation will >>> change as POD becomes more acceptable and the POD publishers acquire >>> reputations for the work they publish. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 18:43:40 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match In-Reply-To: <54AA9B41BC35F34EAD02E660901D8A5A0A052B6F@TLRUSMNEAGMBX10.ERF.THOMSON.COM> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jeez. Can't we just decide that all contemporary haikus are "fake" and leave it at that? Because to my mind that would be at least giving them the benefit of the doubt, since it is extremely unlikely that a "real" sonnet, a "real" dramatic monologue, a "real" epic, a "real" ode, or likewise a "real" haiku could also be a good poem. Only starting from the assumption that using any of this forms or genres is absurd, practically kitsch, is one likely to get anywhere with them. There are societies of watercolor painters out there, according to whose members, probably, the works of any important contemporary artist who might produce a watercolor that you'd in the drawing dept. of MoMA or the Whitney are just obtuse efforts that show no sense of the rules of watercolor painting. But really, one should understand that, unlike hobbyists, real artists have only the most contingent interest in following any rules they have not set for themselves. "Tom W. Lewis" wrote: I first became aware of the haiku form via an interview with Laurie Anderson in the early 80s... she claimed to have written "fake haikus" for her song Kokoku (the interview is archived here: http://www.archive.org/details/LaurieAndersonOTG) at least she didn't claim they were "real" haikus -- does anyone recognize the Japanese text she quotes in the lyrics below? Kokoku I come very briefly to this place. I watch it move. I watch it shake. Kumowaku yamano. Watashino sakebi. Watashino koewo. Ushano kokoku. Watashiwa sokoni. Watashiwa asobu. Mountain with clouds. A cry. My voice. Home of the brave. I'm here now. And lost. They say the dead will rise again. And here they come now. Strange animals out of the Ice Age. And they stare at you. Dumbfounded. Like big mistakes. And we say: Keep cool. Maybe if we pretend this never happened, they'll all just go away. Watashiwa sokoni. Watashiwa asobu. Mewotoji. Mewotoji. Kikunowa kotori. Watashino sakebi. Watashino koewo. ... -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Michael Dylan Welch Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 2:08 To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match Sure, one can use any formal restraint as a poetic game, as a challenge of sorts. But as challenges go, in haiku, the syllabic challenge (whatever pattern you might choose) is mighty superficial. Indeed, in my years of teaching haiku, I've seen that it's the easiest thing in the world for students of nearly all grade levels to count their pretty little syllables. Why brag about pulling on your underwear all by yourself when your hair is on fire? It's a trivial "discipline." And these same haiku, while hitting that trivial target -- again, an incorrect target in English -- are widely missing the more important targets. And most often, these proud 5-7-5ers are completely oblivious to those other targets -- ones that are actually more important. Why bother with arbirary constraints for haiku when there are far more serious, literary, challenging, and effective constraints that you miss in the process of focusing on 5-7-5?!? It can be fun to write cinquains or iambic pentameter, or the recent "Fib" form (counting syllables in subsequent lines to match the Fibonacci sequence). But when it comes to haiku, writing 5-7-5 syllables in English isn't the same as following the prescribed syllables of cinquains or pentameter or Fibs. That's because following 5-7-5 assumes a "correctness" for that pattern in English, which isn't accurate when it's really a borrowed form. Yes, sonnets are borrowed from Italian to English, but at least that's the same alphabet, so it's not fraught with the problems of translating from Japanese to English. It's folly to translate the number (5-7-5) without thinking more deeply about what is being counted. Yet that is precisely what has happened that lead to the false conception of haiku being 5-7-5 syllables in English. Quite simply, when we apply that pattern to English syllables, we miss the boat. It's simplistic and naive. A person can do whatever they like and call it haiku (Lord knows that's happened plenty enough). If you're having fun, knock yourself out. But if you're writing 5-7-5 haiku, it's best to be aware of how you're writing a poem that's markedly longer than what is expressed in a Japanese haiku (not all of which are 5-7-5, by the way). It's best to be aware that you're writing in a pattern that, for good reason, pretty much ALL of the leading haiku poets writing in English do not follow. It's best to be aware that writing 5-7-5 frequently creates artificial syntax and awkward line breaks purely for an unnecessary constraint while more important strategies (also constraints) are completely missed. Indeed, most 5-7-5 haiku writers tend to be completely unaware of the other strategies necessary for traditional haiku, though perhaps that's a separate problem, although it's frequently caused by a belief that 5-7-5 is all there is to it. In any event, if one aims at seasonality and a two-part juxtapositional structure, and employs objective sensory imagery, you can let the rest of form take care of itself (organically). But of course, there's more to it than that -- writing in the present tense, no titles, no rhyme, seldom any similes or metaphors, employing fragments rather than full sentences, employing allusion, and more. And perhaps the most important aspect of all -- implication. It's very hard to do well, to hint at something that the reader can figure out on his own, making a leap of understanding that's made possible because of your restraint as a poet, because you deliberately left something out. As I like to emphasize in haiku workshops, don't write about your emotion, write about what caused your emotion. Then, if you do it right, the reader can feel what you felt without your having to say so. But of course all of this is missed by those who think haiku is only a 5-7-5 syllable-counting poetry trick. Some "challenge." As I say in the title of one of my haiku lectures: "Haiku: It's Bigger Than You Think." Yet of course, it's also smaller than most English speakers think, too. Michael P.S. Nearly every serious haiku poet I know has had a progression in their haiku -- and I'm talking about many hundreds of leading haiku poets who I pay attention to, perhaps even thousands. They nearly all started out writing 5-7-5, as did I. And then they progressed to learning the more important aspects of the genre (and haiku is best thought of as a genre of poetry, of which "form" is just one aspect). At this point, nearly all of them stop writing in the 5-7-5 pattern. The few exceptions to this progression include those who went straight to avoiding 5-7-5 in the first place. But there are clear reasons for this progression. It's not that 5-7-5 is "abandoned." Rather, it is apprehended as something that was inappropriate in the first place, and causes many problems in English. Higher targets are sought -- ones, in fact, that turn out to be far more challenging and require far more discipline. If 5-7-5 in English serves any useful purpose, it is purely as the first stepping-stone on a long path. But, alas, too many people, even otherwise accomplished poets, stop at just that first stepping stone with their haiku. In a message dated 02-Feb-07 9:01:40 PM Pacific Standard Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU writes: Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 10:41:59 -0600 From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match While I think it's a good idea to understand that 5-7-5 is simply a convenience of sorts, even something of a mistranslation (even something of a cultural oversight), I feel about this pretty much the way I feel about bending any formal rule. I.e., it's fun to use 5-7-5 as an arbitrary constraint in composing haiku, just as it's fun to use 14 lines as an arbitrary constraint in composing sonnets. (Which latter might not result in 14 lines, ysee, but that won't keep me from calling it a sonnet.) Granted, correcting the misconception is one thing. But having fun with same is quite another, which, to me, is one reason I write poetry. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 13:49:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Heller Subject: Room change. "Beckmann Meditations" at Birkbeck Comments: To: UKPOETRY@LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There has been a last minute room change for tomorrow night's event, February 7th, at Birkbeck College. The reading/lecture will be held at 43 Gordon Square, Room G01. Sorry for the inconvenience. Yours, Michael Heller ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 13:50:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Switaj Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match In-Reply-To: <458792.22449.qm@web86004.mail.ird.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 2/6/07, Barry Schwabsky wrote: "But really, one should understand that, unlike hobbyists, real artists have only the most contingent interest in following any rules they have not set for themselves." Does that include the rule that artists shouldn't be interested in rules other people have made up? Elizabeth Kate Switaj www.critjournal.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 12:53:17 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rebecca Weaver Subject: Midway URL In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hello all--my apologies--the Midway address: www.midwayjournal.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 12:58:24 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Tom W. Lewis" Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match In-Reply-To: <458792.22449.qm@web86004.mail.ird.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable hey hey, that's (really) my point -- this form(alism) is a starting place -- I try not to pay a whole lot of attention to "the rules," since you learn language best in the environment it is spoken -- and anyway one attractive characteristic of human language is its capacity for innovation, sometimes (or especially when) enacted by the less fluent among us... how about stipulating that there's a form called American (or English-language) haiku, which is different from but as equally valid as the original, Japanese form? cf. American and European football (our "football" and "soccer," as it were)... or is this old ground we're treading?=20 snow light enough to sweep off your front steps, even though=20 the wind-chill is sub-zero -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Barry Schwabsky Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 12:44 To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match Jeez. Can't we just decide that all contemporary haikus are "fake" and leave it at that? =20 Because to my mind that would be at least giving them the benefit of the doubt, since it is extremely unlikely that a "real" sonnet, a "real" dramatic monologue, a "real" epic, a "real" ode, or likewise a "real" haiku could also be a good poem. Only starting from the assumption that using any of this forms or genres is absurd, practically kitsch, is one likely to get anywhere with them.=20 =20 There are societies of watercolor painters out there, according to whose members, probably, the works of any important contemporary artist who might produce a watercolor that you'd in the drawing dept. of MoMA or the Whitney are just obtuse efforts that show no sense of the rules of watercolor painting. But really, one should understand that, unlike hobbyists, real artists have only the most contingent interest in following any rules they have not set for themselves. "Tom W. Lewis" wrote: I first became aware of the haiku form via an interview with Laurie Anderson in the early 80s... she claimed to have written "fake haikus" for her song Kokoku (the interview is archived here: http://www.archive.org/details/LaurieAndersonOTG) at least she didn't claim they were "real" haikus -- does anyone recognize the Japanese text she quotes in the lyrics below? Kokoku I come very briefly to this place.=20 I watch it move. I watch it shake.=20 Kumowaku yamano. Watashino sakebi.=20 Watashino koewo. Ushano kokoku.=20 Watashiwa sokoni. Watashiwa asobu.=20 Mountain with clouds. A cry. My voice. Home of the brave. I'm here now. And lost. They say the dead will rise again. And here they come now.=20 Strange animals out of the Ice Age. And they stare at you.=20 Dumbfounded. Like big mistakes. And we say: Keep cool.=20 Maybe if we pretend this never happened, they'll all just go away.=20 Watashiwa sokoni. Watashiwa asobu.=20 Mewotoji. Mewotoji. Kikunowa kotori.=20 Watashino sakebi. Watashino koewo. ... -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Michael Dylan Welch Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 2:08 To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match Sure, one can use any formal restraint as a poetic game, as a challenge of=20 sorts. But as challenges go, in haiku, the syllabic challenge (whatever pattern=20 you might choose) is mighty superficial. Indeed, in my years of teaching=20 haiku, I've seen that it's the easiest thing in the world for students of nearly=20 all grade levels to count their pretty little syllables. Why brag about pulling on your underwear all by yourself when your hair is on fire? It's a=20 trivial "discipline." And these same haiku, while hitting that trivial target --=20 again, an incorrect target in English -- are widely missing the more important=20 targets. And most often, these proud 5-7-5ers are completely oblivious to=20 those other targets -- ones that are actually more important. Why bother with=20 arbirary constraints for haiku when there are far more serious, literary,=20 challenging, and effective constraints that you miss in the process of focusing=20 on 5-7-5?!? It can be fun to write cinquains or iambic pentameter, or the recent "Fib"=20 form (counting syllables in subsequent lines to match the Fibonacci sequence).=20 But when it comes to haiku, writing 5-7-5 syllables in English isn't the=20 same as following the prescribed syllables of cinquains or pentameter or Fibs.=20 That's because following 5-7-5 assumes a "correctness" for that pattern in=20 English, which isn't accurate when it's really a borrowed form. Yes, sonnets are=20 borrowed from Italian to English, but at least that's the same alphabet, so=20 it's not fraught with the problems of translating from Japanese to English.=20 It's folly to translate the number (5-7-5) without thinking more deeply about=20 what is being counted. Yet that is precisely what has happened that lead to=20 the false conception of haiku being 5-7-5 syllables in English. Quite simply,=20 when we apply that pattern to English syllables, we miss the boat. It's simplistic and naive. A person can do whatever they like and call it haiku (Lord knows that's happened plenty enough). If you're having fun, knock yourself out. But if you're=20 writing 5-7-5 haiku, it's best to be aware of how you're writing a poem that's=20 markedly longer than what is expressed in a Japanese haiku (not all of which=20 are 5-7-5, by the way). It's best to be aware that you're writing in a=20 pattern that, for good reason, pretty much ALL of the leading haiku poets writing=20 in English do not follow. It's best to be aware that writing 5-7-5 frequently=20 creates artificial syntax and awkward line breaks purely for an unnecessary=20 constraint while more important strategies (also constraints) are completely=20 missed. Indeed, most 5-7-5 haiku writers tend to be completely unaware of the=20 other strategies necessary for traditional haiku, though perhaps that's a=20 separate problem, although it's frequently caused by a belief that 5-7-5 is all=20 there is to it. In any event, if one aims at seasonality and a two-part juxtapositional structure, and employs objective sensory imagery, you can let=20 the rest of form take care of itself (organically). But of course, there's more=20 to it than that -- writing in the present tense, no titles, no rhyme, seldom=20 any similes or metaphors, employing fragments rather than full sentences,=20 employing allusion, and more. And perhaps the most important aspect of all --=20 implication. It's very hard to do well, to hint at something that the reader=20 can figure out on his own, making a leap of understanding that's made possible=20 because of your restraint as a poet, because you deliberately left something=20 out. As I like to emphasize in haiku workshops, don't write about your=20 emotion, write about what caused your emotion. Then, if you do it right, the reader=20 can feel what you felt without your having to say so. But of course all of=20 this is missed by those who think haiku is only a 5-7-5 syllable-counting=20 poetry trick. Some "challenge." As I say in the title of one of my haiku lectures: "Haiku: It's Bigger Than=20 You Think." Yet of course, it's also smaller than most English speakers think,=20 too. Michael P.S. Nearly every serious haiku poet I know has had a progression in their=20 haiku -- and I'm talking about many hundreds of leading haiku poets who I pay=20 attention to, perhaps even thousands. They nearly all started out writing=20 5-7-5, as did I. And then they progressed to learning the more important aspects=20 of the genre (and haiku is best thought of as a genre of poetry, of which=20 "form" is just one aspect). At this point, nearly all of them stop writing in=20 the 5-7-5 pattern. The few exceptions to this progression include those who=20 went straight to avoiding 5-7-5 in the first place. But there are clear reasons=20 for this progression. It's not that 5-7-5 is "abandoned." Rather, it is apprehended as something that was inappropriate in the first place, and causes=20 many problems in English. Higher targets are sought -- ones, in fact, that turn=20 out to be far more challenging and require far more discipline. If 5-7-5 in=20 English serves any useful purpose, it is purely as the first stepping-stone on=20 a long path. But, alas, too many people, even otherwise accomplished poets,=20 stop at just that first stepping stone with their haiku. In a message dated 02-Feb-07 9:01:40 PM Pacific Standard Time,=20 LISTSERV@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU writes: Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 10:41:59 -0600 From: Joe Amato=20 Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match While I think it's a good idea to understand that 5-7-5 is simply a=20 convenience of sorts, even something of a mistranslation (even=20 something of a cultural oversight), I feel about this pretty much the=20 way I feel about bending any formal rule. I.e., it's fun to use=20 5-7-5 as an arbitrary constraint in composing haiku, just as it's fun=20 to use 14 lines as an arbitrary constraint in composing sonnets.=20 (Which latter might not result in 14 lines, ysee, but that won't keep=20 me from calling it a sonnet.) Granted, correcting the misconception is one thing. But having fun=20 with same is quite another, which, to me, is one reason I write=20 poetry. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 11:18:35 -0800 Reply-To: pen@splab.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Paul Nelson Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom W. Lewis said: how about stipulating that there's a form called American (or English-language) haiku, which is different from but as equally valid as the original, Japanese form? cf. American and European football (our "football" and "soccer," as it were)... or is this old ground we're treading? Allen Ginsberg created an American form of Haiku which he called "American Sentences." (See "Cosmopolitan Greetings.") They are 17 syllable sentences, preferably with a phenomenological slant. I write at least one of these per day, have since Jan 1, 2001 and created a website to further awareness of the form. http://www.americansentences.com A few for your perusal: 02.03.01 - 12 vehicle crash northbound I-5 caused by slick roads & a rainbow. 02.06.01 - In right-wing Senator's office, framed picture of the Enola Gay. 02.09.01 - One small spat & you reconstruct front room into /bedroom-in-exile/. 02.08.02 - Next to condom dispenser is written: /This is the worst gum ever./ 04.19.02 - Canada's flag half mast past the Peace Arch from our friendly fire. 04.20.02 - Behind END ISRAEL OCCUPATION rally, kosher hot dog stand. 06.22.02 - Man who sprays Round-Up on his lawn complains when my dog pisses on it. 4.09.03 - Maintenance man leaves a note says: ...can't fix your faucet its threads are striped. 11.22.03 - w/ serious faces they all wait outside the hospital & smoke. 3.09.04 -- It's a long swim to Cambodia from Hudson River Spalding Gray. 3.12.04 -- After the terror bombings cel phones ring next to corpses in Madrid. 3.14.05 -- Wanda Coleman told me she is praying /Bush gets a bad pretzel/. 3.17.05 -- /Mind if we use your fairway?/ they ask -- go ahead, we're not using it. 3.22.05 -- Explorer /Got Jesus / bumper sticker cuts me off -- I forgive her. Paul Nelson -- Paul E. Nelson www.GlobalVoicesRadio.org www.SPLAB.org www.AmericanSentences.com Slaughter, WA 98002 253.735.6328 toll-free 888.735.6328 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 11:45:13 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eric Dickey Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match In-Reply-To: <45C8D48B.4060208@splab.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Anybody know the song "Crazy Fingers" by Robert Hunter/Jerry Garcia? http://www3.clearlight.com/~acsa/introjs.htm?/~acsa/songfile/CRAZYFIN.HTM it's all haiku, some verses (stanzas) true to "form", some more so then others, if you know what I mean. To me, this is American haiku at its best. Bucks the form, yet maintains gesture, impulse, intent with an element of the surreal. Perhaps Hunter and Ginsberg knew each other. Midnight on a carousel ride Reaching for the gold ring Down inside Paul Nelson wrote: Tom W. Lewis said: how about stipulating that there's a form called American (or English-language) haiku, which is different from but as equally valid as the original, Japanese form? cf. American and European football (our "football" and "soccer," as it were)... or is this old ground we're treading? Allen Ginsberg created an American form of Haiku which he called "American Sentences." (See "Cosmopolitan Greetings.") They are 17 syllable sentences, preferably with a phenomenological slant. I write at least one of these per day, have since Jan 1, 2001 and created a website to further awareness of the form. http://www.americansentences.com A few for your perusal: 02.03.01 - 12 vehicle crash northbound I-5 caused by slick roads & a rainbow. 02.06.01 - In right-wing Senator's office, framed picture of the Enola Gay. 02.09.01 - One small spat & you reconstruct front room into /bedroom-in-exile/. 02.08.02 - Next to condom dispenser is written: /This is the worst gum ever./ 04.19.02 - Canada's flag half mast past the Peace Arch from our friendly fire. 04.20.02 - Behind END ISRAEL OCCUPATION rally, kosher hot dog stand. 06.22.02 - Man who sprays Round-Up on his lawn complains when my dog pisses on it. 4.09.03 - Maintenance man leaves a note says: ...can't fix your faucet its threads are striped. 11.22.03 - w/ serious faces they all wait outside the hospital & smoke. 3.09.04 -- It's a long swim to Cambodia from Hudson River Spalding Gray. 3.12.04 -- After the terror bombings cel phones ring next to corpses in Madrid. 3.14.05 -- Wanda Coleman told me she is praying /Bush gets a bad pretzel/. 3.17.05 -- /Mind if we use your fairway?/ they ask -- go ahead, we're not using it. 3.22.05 -- Explorer /Got Jesus / bumper sticker cuts me off -- I forgive her. Paul Nelson -- Paul E. Nelson www.GlobalVoicesRadio.org www.SPLAB.org www.AmericanSentences.com Slaughter, WA 98002 253.735.6328 toll-free 888.735.6328 --------------------------------- The fish are biting. Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 11:48:53 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry In-Reply-To: <872163.14945.qm@web86004.mail.ird.yahoo.com> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Ooops! On 6-Feb-07, at 2:10 AM, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > Finnegans Wake has an apostrophe? > > George Bowering wrote: > having >> lived in cork and donegal for years and hung out with musicians and >> shanakee (sorry, i know that's not the spelling), finnegans wake >> doesn't >> make sense any other way to me. > > Finnegan's Wake hung out in Cork? > > George Harry Bowering Can't find his Speedo ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 20:03:14 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tim Peterson Subject: QUEERING LANGUAGE READING, Sat Feb 10th at the BPC, 8 PM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Join us for a poetry reading to celebrate the publication of the forthcoming EOAGH Issue 3: Queering Language (journal edited by CA Conrad, kari edwards, Paul Foster Johnson, Erica Kaufman, Jack Kimball, Tim Peterson, and Stacy Szymaszek, featuring over 100 writers including some rare surprises) Event hosted by Tim Peterson & Nathaniel Siegel Featuring readings by Jen Benka, Mark Bibbins, Julian Brolaski, Regie Cabico, David Cameron, Abigail Child, Jen Coleman, Allison Cobb, Marcella Durand reading Nicole Brossard, Joe Elliot, Corrine Fitzpatrick, E. Tracy Grinnell, Brenda Iijima, Jeffrey Jullich, Amy King, Bill Kushner, Rachel Levitsky, Ben Malkin, Filip Marinovich, Eileen Myles, Martha Oatis, Akilah Oliver, Austin Publicover, and Christina Strong Saturday February 10th, 2007 8pm-10pm @ The Bowery Poetry Club 308 Bowery (@ Bowery & Bleecker) http://www.bowerypoetry.com Admission $5.00 Proceeds will go to a charitable fund established in the memory of kari edwards. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 15:27:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Eric, The chorus to the Hunter/Garcia song "Ripple" is a haiku as well: Ripple in still water where there is no pebble tossed nor wind to blow http://arts.ucsc.edu/gdead/agdl/ripple.html Since the Grateful Dead and Allen Ginsberg were both acts at the Human Be-In, and the overlap between Beat-ness and the Merry Pranksters was Neal Cassady, it's not completely improbable that Hunter and Ginsberg at least met. Gwyn Eric Dickey wrote: Anybody know the song "Crazy Fingers" by Robert Hunter/Jerry Garcia? http://www3.clearlight.com/~acsa/introjs.htm?/~acsa/songfile/CRAZYFIN.HTM it's all haiku, some verses (stanzas) true to "form", some more so then others, if you know what I mean. To me, this is American haiku at its best. Bucks the form, yet maintains gesture, impulse, intent with an element of the surreal. Perhaps Hunter and Ginsberg knew each other. Midnight on a carousel ride Reaching for the gold ring Down inside ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 12:10:37 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Don Summerhayes Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Try reading Roland Barthes, especially 'The Pleasure of the Text/' and 'Barthes by Barthes'. Not only is he a beautiful writer, but he does not pontificate or obfuscate or mystify. Poets are always aware that their words have more than one or two kinds of identity or function (pun, rhyme, say) as well as being signs, and that assigning meaning is always a matter of overriding complexities. On 5-Feb-07, at 9:23 AM, Alan Sondheim wrote: > I'm not sure about the "if/then" - that implies process; there's > also the "if then else" formulation which works here - if A then > not A^B else ?? > - and process involves temporality; the "if" also seems itself to > be on the verge or hinge. It might be the difference between > temporality and a state-of-affairs, although both can be considered > potentials.. > > I don't know if you're familiar with Spencer Brown's Laws of Form - > he makes a similar jump between states-of-affairs and temporality > (involving if I remember imaginary quantities) - which again I'm > not sure of. But he starts I think by describing "making a > distinction" which is already a process... > > - Alan > > > On Mon, 5 Feb 2007, Chris Chapman wrote: > >> I have to concentrate on Tocqueville but before I do: >> >> when I read your description of what neither A nor B means I think >> you're on the >> verge of switching logical categories from those that stem from >> forms of >> division into forms of equation - 'either/or' for 'if/then.' The >> vertical bar >> you use, "A/A", seems to bespeak a detachment within self-identity >> that had >> begun in disjunction. >> >> It's that connection that I find interesting, narcissistically and >> perhaps >> narratologically speaking. I'm thinking about how to answer that >> more fully. >> >> >> >> Chris >> (Please show me where I've been especially obtuse with your >> demonstration.) >> >> Quoting Alan Sondheim : >> >>> >>> >>> I'm not sure this will go through. The two functions are duals of >>> each >>> other and both can be used as the 'basis' of propositional logic; >>> in other >>> words, everything in propositional logic can be derived from >>> either of >>> these. For example if you have | for "neither A nor B" then A|A >>> is simply >>> "not A" and this also holds for "not both A and B." >>> >>> And yes, grouping and distribution; they're both "kinds" of >>> expulsion - >>> A|B simply implies either the null set or "anywhere but here - >>> elsewhere" >>> - depending on whether A and B are complements, and "not both A >>> and B" >>> implies both possibly elsewhere and that "veering" - one or the >>> other >>> possibly, or neither, anything but the intersection. >>> >>> I haven't thought of Derrida in terms of narrative - can you say >>> more >>> about this? >>> >>> Thanks, Alan >>> >>> >>> On Mon, 5 Feb 2007, Chris Chapman wrote: >>> >>>> Hey Alan, that sounds really interesting: >>>> >>>> "Sheffer stroke (not both A and >>>> B) and its dual (neither A nor B) in terms of the history of the >>>> shapes of >>>> the symbols in relation to psychoanalytical concerns (feminism, the >>>> phallic, expulsion, etc.)." >>>> >>>> >>>> How did you parse out the embedded 'or' and its negations? These >>>> two >>> choices >>>> look identical (which is why you mention the significance of >>>> 'always >>> already'.) >>>> >>>> Second glance shows a countermotion: one towards grouping ('not >>>> both') and >>> the >>>> other towards distribution (neither/nor). >>>> >>>> ... >>>> >>>> >>>> I find Derrida's writing to be a rich reserve of information >>>> from which a >>>> 'routine' has been lately abstracted. For example, essays in >>>> *Writing and >>>> Difference* teach us something about Raymond Rousset's >>>> 'ultrastructuralist' >>>> imagination and how this affected his criticism of Corneille. >>>> "Force and >>>> Signification" is, on this level, a thematic reading of >>>> Rousset's "Form and >>>> Signification". "Violence and Metaphysics" is a philosophical >>>> biography of >>>> Emmanuel Levinas as he grapples with Husserl and Heidegger. We >>>> learn >>> something >>>> about *Totality and Infinity*. These basic stories get lost in >>>> the drift. >>>> >>>> Chris >>>> Chris >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Quoting Alan Sondheim : >>>> >>>>> I'm not sure that this will go through. >>>>> >>>>> Anyway, deconstruction is not a method or a means of locating >>>>> subtexts; it >>>>> relates on one hand to new criticism (in the sense that it >>>>> treats the text >>>>> as a messy entirety) and on the other to cultural studies (in >>>>> the sense >>>>> that peripheral/diacritical symptoms/tropes are of great >>>>> importance - and >>>>> thexe often subvert or disturb and apprent transparency of the >>>>> surface). >>>>> Years ago I wrote a paper that was used in a course on >>>>> deconstruction (not >>>>> mine); it was on the difference between the Sheffer stroke (not >>>>> both A and >>>>> B) and its dual (neither A nor B) in terms of the history of >>>>> the shapes of >>>>> the symbols in relation to psychoanalytical concerns (feminism, >>>>> the >>>>> phallic, expulsion, etc.). So there's first of all the simple >>>>> logic >>>>> involved, and second, its actual process of construction, its >>>>> history, and >>>>> so forth. The 'subversion' - such as it might be considered - >>>>> is in using >>>>> the (logical) formation to consider issues of origination, the >>>>> 'primordial,' gender, etc., from the standpoint of this 'veering.' >>>>> >>>>> Deconstruction also references the metaphysics underlying a >>>>> text - not in >>>>> the sense again of _sub_ text - but underlying in the sense of >>>>> implicit >>>>> within it, incoherent within it, the slight edge that tends >>>>> elsewhere, >>>>> that threatens to overturn the text. (Again, years ago I did a >>>>> Kristevan >>>>> analysis of the '10 commandments' (in the Hebrew) along these >>>>> lines.) So >>>>> that what might seem a barrier, is open, and what is open, >>>>> might seem a >>>>> barrier, the gate which isn't a gate (yes, there's a relation >>>>> to Zen I >>>>> think). >>>>> >>>>> All of that said, it's difficult to pin the process down - >>>>> since it's >>>>> neither process or product; I think of it, like glas, as a >>>>> discourse which >>>>> has always already continued and continues to continue, a >>>>> discourse of >>>>> humans which undercuts conclusion, totality, absolute - but which >>>>> nonetheless carries a very real political component, activist >>>>> as well. >>>>> >>>>> - Alan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ================================================================== >>>>> ===== >>>>> Work on YouTube, blog at http://nikuko.blogspot.com . Tel >>>>> 718-813-3285. >>>>> Webpage directory http://www.asondheim.org . Email: >>>>> sondheim@panix.com. >>>>> http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim for theory; >>>>> also check >>>>> WVU Zwiki, Google for recent. Write for info on books, cds, >>>>> performance, >>>>> dvds, etc. >>>>> ============================================================= >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> ==================================================================== >>> === >>> Work on YouTube, blog at http://nikuko.blogspot.com . Tel >>> 718-813-3285. >>> Webpage directory http://www.asondheim.org . Email: >>> sondheim@panix.com. >>> http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim for theory; also >>> check >>> WVU Zwiki, Google for recent. Write for info on books, cds, >>> performance, >>> dvds, etc. >>> ============================================================= >>> >>> >> >> > > > ====================================================================== > = > Work on YouTube, blog at http://nikuko.blogspot.com . Tel > 718-813-3285. > Webpage directory http://www.asondheim.org . Email: > sondheim@panix.com. > http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim for theory; also check > WVU Zwiki, Google for recent. Write for info on books, cds, > performance, > dvds, etc. > ============================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 14:35:30 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Crockett Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match In-Reply-To: <54734.24.72.224.225.1170793635.squirrel@webmail.patriot.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Death Haiku Springs in the water beside the passenger train impervious all the buildings are grey for to remember Portsmouth finding no flowers certainly without the mechanisms ignite flared by the dark spots Jesse Crockett Gwyn McVay wrote: > Eric, > > The chorus to the Hunter/Garcia song "Ripple" is a haiku as well: > > Ripple in still water > where there is no pebble tossed > nor wind to blow > > http://arts.ucsc.edu/gdead/agdl/ripple.html > > Since the Grateful Dead and Allen Ginsberg were both acts at the Human > Be-In, and the overlap between Beat-ness and the Merry Pranksters was Neal > Cassady, it's not completely improbable that Hunter and Ginsberg at least > met. > > Gwyn > > > Eric Dickey wrote: > > Anybody know the song "Crazy Fingers" by Robert Hunter/Jerry Garcia? > > http://www3.clearlight.com/~acsa/introjs.htm?/~acsa/songfile/CRAZYFIN.HTM > > it's all haiku, some verses (stanzas) true to "form", some more so then > others, if you know what I mean. > > To me, this is American haiku at its best. Bucks the form, yet > maintains gesture, impulse, intent with an element of the surreal. > Perhaps Hunter and Ginsberg knew each other. > > Midnight on a carousel ride > Reaching for the gold ring > Down inside > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 14:36:44 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Crockett Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match In-Reply-To: <45C8E692.4040806@listenlight.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sprigs Jesse Crockett wrote: > Death Haiku > > > Springs in the water > beside the passenger train > impervious all > > the buildings are grey > for to remember Portsmouth > finding no flowers > > certainly without > the mechanisms ignite > flared by the dark spots > > > > Jesse Crockett > > > > Gwyn McVay wrote: >> Eric, >> >> The chorus to the Hunter/Garcia song "Ripple" is a haiku as well: >> >> Ripple in still water >> where there is no pebble tossed >> nor wind to blow >> >> http://arts.ucsc.edu/gdead/agdl/ripple.html >> >> Since the Grateful Dead and Allen Ginsberg were both acts at the Human >> Be-In, and the overlap between Beat-ness and the Merry Pranksters was >> Neal >> Cassady, it's not completely improbable that Hunter and Ginsberg at >> least >> met. >> >> Gwyn >> >> >> Eric Dickey wrote: >> >> Anybody know the song "Crazy Fingers" by Robert Hunter/Jerry Garcia? >> >> >> http://www3.clearlight.com/~acsa/introjs.htm?/~acsa/songfile/CRAZYFIN.HTM >> >> >> it's all haiku, some verses (stanzas) true to "form", some more so >> then >> others, if you know what I mean. >> >> To me, this is American haiku at its best. Bucks the form, yet >> maintains gesture, impulse, intent with an element of the surreal. >> Perhaps Hunter and Ginsberg knew each other. >> >> Midnight on a carousel ride >> Reaching for the gold ring >> Down inside >> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 12:51:37 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: new work from Turkey by Ozcan Turkmen In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I received an email (below) today from Turkey, from Ozcan Turkmen, letting me know that he has a site up of digital poems. This is an astonishing event, to me, to visit a site by a fellow digital poet in Turkey, and would like to share it with you. It is vey unusual work, I think. If you refresh http://www.workmanofchild.com repeatedly, you see different pictures from the place Ozcan Turkmen was born: a prisoner of war camp in Germany from WWII. He now lives in Istanbul. These are works of experimental digital poetry. "Entropic Poetry" (done in Java) finds/creates human meaning around Shannon's notion of entropy. This is a conceptual poem involving programming, the visual, and an essay on the concept. "The Story of a Line" (done in Flash) traces human growth through the consciousness of a geometric figure. "Loopy" looks at the relation of iteration/the loop to our own existence; "Pornography" seeks some understanding of what it is. I note that the full-site menu in the English section of the site is considerably shorter than the Turkish section of the site, understandably. It is really encouraging to see a site of this nature. Part of what many of us treasure is the idea of a Net of art that aspires to international solidarity in the creation of literary bodies of work that can swim in the brine of the binary and communicate across many borders. Many thanks to Ozcan for this moving, intelligent work from Istanbul. ja ********* Merhaba, Kisisel web sitem olan www.workmanofchild.com adresinde toplamaya calistigim yazilarimi sizinle paylasmak istedim. Umarim, aramizdaki iletisimi guclendirir bu. Sevgiler... Hi, I'd like to inform you about my new site : www.workmanofchild.com . I hope that it will strengthen the relation among us. My greetings, Ozcan Turkmen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 16:14:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcus Bales Subject: February 10 - 24 =?utf-8?Q?=96?= Opening Reception Saturday February 10, 6 - 9 pm for Greg Terepka: Bold Intentions Show Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 February 10 - 24 – opening reception saturday february 10, 6 - 9 pm for greg terepka: Bold Intentions Show Gallery 324 The Galleria at Erieview 1301 East 9th Street Cleveland, Ohio 44114 Show Hours: 10 am – 5 pm weekdays 10 am – 2 pm Saturdays February 10 – 24, 2007. Opening Reception Saturday, February 10, 6-9 pm. For more information: Marcus Bales 216/780-1522 mbales@oh.verio.com Twenty-two flowers individually pose and glow in a transcendent light that highlights their forms, voluptuous and sinuous and vivid. No, nothing like Georgia O´Keefe - these images capture the long line of the forms. Terepka photographs flowers as if they were sheathed in long dresses and white gloves, standing looking back over their bared shoulders at something surprisingly interesting. If you’d like to be removed from this email list, please REPLY to this message to: mbales@oh.verio.com and ask to be removed in the text of your message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 16:40:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Deborah Poe Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry In-Reply-To: <7F94A0F9-011E-4B13-B1C3-9CF44316B6FE@yorku.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline My apologies if someone has mentioned...The most recent Minnesota Review has an interview with William V. Spanos--interesting connections with this discussion/thread. D- ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Summerhayes Date: Tuesday, February 6, 2007 3:52 pm Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Try reading Roland Barthes, especially 'The Pleasure of the Text/' > > and 'Barthes by Barthes'. Not only is he a beautiful writer, but > he > does not pontificate or obfuscate or mystify. Poets are always > aware > that their words have more than one or two kinds of identity or > function (pun, rhyme, say) as well as being signs, and that > assigning > meaning is always a matter of overriding complexities. > > > > On 5-Feb-07, at 9:23 AM, Alan Sondheim wrote: > > > I'm not sure about the "if/then" - that implies process; there's > > > also the "if then else" formulation which works here - if A then > > > not A^B else ?? > > - and process involves temporality; the "if" also seems itself > to > > be on the verge or hinge. It might be the difference between > > temporality and a state-of-affairs, although both can be > considered > > potentials.. > > > > I don't know if you're familiar with Spencer Brown's Laws of > Form - > > he makes a similar jump between states-of-affairs and > temporality > > (involving if I remember imaginary quantities) - which again I'm > > > not sure of. But he starts I think by describing "making a > > distinction" which is already a process... > > > > - Alan > > > > > > On Mon, 5 Feb 2007, Chris Chapman wrote: > > > >> I have to concentrate on Tocqueville but before I do: > >> > >> when I read your description of what neither A nor B means I > think > >> you're on the > >> verge of switching logical categories from those that stem from > > >> forms of > >> division into forms of equation - 'either/or' for 'if/then.' > The > >> vertical bar > >> you use, "A/A", seems to bespeak a detachment within self- > identity > >> that had > >> begun in disjunction. > >> > >> It's that connection that I find interesting, narcissistically > and > >> perhaps > >> narratologically speaking. I'm thinking about how to answer > that > >> more fully. > >> > >> > >> > >> Chris > >> (Please show me where I've been especially obtuse with your > >> demonstration.) > >> > >> Quoting Alan Sondheim : > >> > >>> > >>> > >>> I'm not sure this will go through. The two functions are duals > of > >>> each > >>> other and both can be used as the 'basis' of propositional > logic; > >>> in other > >>> words, everything in propositional logic can be derived from > >>> either of > >>> these. For example if you have | for "neither A nor B" then > A|A > >>> is simply > >>> "not A" and this also holds for "not both A and B." > >>> > >>> And yes, grouping and distribution; they're both "kinds" of > >>> expulsion - > >>> A|B simply implies either the null set or "anywhere but here - > > >>> elsewhere" > >>> - depending on whether A and B are complements, and "not both > A > >>> and B" > >>> implies both possibly elsewhere and that "veering" - one or > the > >>> other > >>> possibly, or neither, anything but the intersection. > >>> > >>> I haven't thought of Derrida in terms of narrative - can you > say > >>> more > >>> about this? > >>> > >>> Thanks, Alan > >>> > >>> > >>> On Mon, 5 Feb 2007, Chris Chapman wrote: > >>> > >>>> Hey Alan, that sounds really interesting: > >>>> > >>>> "Sheffer stroke (not both A and > >>>> B) and its dual (neither A nor B) in terms of the history of > the > >>>> shapes of > >>>> the symbols in relation to psychoanalytical concerns > (feminism, the > >>>> phallic, expulsion, etc.)." > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> How did you parse out the embedded 'or' and its negations? > These > >>>> two > >>> choices > >>>> look identical (which is why you mention the significance of > >>>> 'always > >>> already'.) > >>>> > >>>> Second glance shows a countermotion: one towards grouping > ('not > >>>> both') and > >>> the > >>>> other towards distribution (neither/nor). > >>>> > >>>> ... > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> I find Derrida's writing to be a rich reserve of information > >>>> from which a > >>>> 'routine' has been lately abstracted. For example, essays in > >>>> *Writing and > >>>> Difference* teach us something about Raymond Rousset's > >>>> 'ultrastructuralist' > >>>> imagination and how this affected his criticism of Corneille. > > >>>> "Force and > >>>> Signification" is, on this level, a thematic reading of > >>>> Rousset's "Form and > >>>> Signification". "Violence and Metaphysics" is a philosophical > > >>>> biography of > >>>> Emmanuel Levinas as he grapples with Husserl and Heidegger. > We > >>>> learn > >>> something > >>>> about *Totality and Infinity*. These basic stories get lost > in > >>>> the drift. > >>>> > >>>> Chris > >>>> Chris > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Quoting Alan Sondheim : > >>>> > >>>>> I'm not sure that this will go through. > >>>>> > >>>>> Anyway, deconstruction is not a method or a means of > locating > >>>>> subtexts; it > >>>>> relates on one hand to new criticism (in the sense that it > >>>>> treats the text > >>>>> as a messy entirety) and on the other to cultural studies > (in > >>>>> the sense > >>>>> that peripheral/diacritical symptoms/tropes are of great > >>>>> importance - and > >>>>> thexe often subvert or disturb and apprent transparency of > the > >>>>> surface). > >>>>> Years ago I wrote a paper that was used in a course on > >>>>> deconstruction (not > >>>>> mine); it was on the difference between the Sheffer stroke > (not > >>>>> both A and > >>>>> B) and its dual (neither A nor B) in terms of the history of > > >>>>> the shapes of > >>>>> the symbols in relation to psychoanalytical concerns > (feminism, > >>>>> the > >>>>> phallic, expulsion, etc.). So there's first of all the > simple > >>>>> logic > >>>>> involved, and second, its actual process of construction, > its > >>>>> history, and > >>>>> so forth. The 'subversion' - such as it might be considered - > > >>>>> is in using > >>>>> the (logical) formation to consider issues of origination, the > >>>>> 'primordial,' gender, etc., from the standpoint of this > 'veering.'>>>>> > >>>>> Deconstruction also references the metaphysics underlying a > >>>>> text - not in > >>>>> the sense again of _sub_ text - but underlying in the sense > of > >>>>> implicit > >>>>> within it, incoherent within it, the slight edge that tends > >>>>> elsewhere, > >>>>> that threatens to overturn the text. (Again, years ago I did > a > >>>>> Kristevan > >>>>> analysis of the '10 commandments' (in the Hebrew) along > these > >>>>> lines.) So > >>>>> that what might seem a barrier, is open, and what is open, > >>>>> might seem a > >>>>> barrier, the gate which isn't a gate (yes, there's a > relation > >>>>> to Zen I > >>>>> think). > >>>>> > >>>>> All of that said, it's difficult to pin the process down - > >>>>> since it's > >>>>> neither process or product; I think of it, like glas, as a > >>>>> discourse which > >>>>> has always already continued and continues to continue, a > >>>>> discourse of > >>>>> humans which undercuts conclusion, totality, absolute - but > which>>>>> nonetheless carries a very real political component, > activist > >>>>> as well. > >>>>> > >>>>> - Alan > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > ================================================================== > >>>>> ===== > >>>>> Work on YouTube, blog at http://nikuko.blogspot.com . Tel > >>>>> 718-813-3285. > >>>>> Webpage directory http://www.asondheim.org . Email: > >>>>> sondheim@panix.com. > >>>>> http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim for theory; > >>>>> also check > >>>>> WVU Zwiki, Google for recent. Write for info on books, cds, > >>>>> performance, > >>>>> dvds, etc. > >>>>> ============================================================= > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > ==================================================================== > >>> === > >>> Work on YouTube, blog at http://nikuko.blogspot.com . Tel > >>> 718-813-3285. > >>> Webpage directory http://www.asondheim.org . Email: > >>> sondheim@panix.com. > >>> http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim for theory; > also > >>> check > >>> WVU Zwiki, Google for recent. Write for info on books, cds, > >>> performance, > >>> dvds, etc. > >>> ============================================================= > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > > > > > > > ====================================================================== > > = > > Work on YouTube, blog at http://nikuko.blogspot.com . Tel > > 718-813-3285. > > Webpage directory http://www.asondheim.org . Email: > > sondheim@panix.com. > > http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim for theory; also > check> WVU Zwiki, Google for recent. Write for info on books, cds, > > > performance, > > dvds, etc. > > ============================================================= > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 16:59:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anselm Berrigan Subject: Fwd: looking for a place for a poet to crash in NYC In-Reply-To: <8C917847644027A-19D4-CBA@WEBMAIL-DB01.sysops.aol.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed -----Original Message----- From: anselmberrigan@aol.com To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 4:33 PM Subject: looking for a place for a poet to crash in NYC Dear folks,=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The poet Stephen Rodefer is coming to New York City from Feb. 13-25,=20 and looking for places to stay.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 He=E2=80=99s reading at the Poetry Project on the 14th, and has a show of=20 paintings at the Bowery Poetry Club happening as well.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 if anyone knows of an open apartment or room in town, he=E2=80=99d appreci= ate=20 being contacted. Thanks, in advance, for any help.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 His e-mail is: rodefer@free.fr=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Anselm Berrigan=C2=A0 =20 ________________________________________________________________________=C2= =A0 Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and=20 security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from=20 across the web, free AOL Mail and more.=C2=A0 ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and=20 security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from=20 across the web, free AOL Mail and more. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 17:49:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "St. Thomasino" Subject: Haiku Death Match / Molotov's Sister Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed .=B7.=B7.=B7.=B7.=B7 Molotov=92s Sister A blonde bomber, she smokes filterless, plays upright bass & writes haiku http://the-otolith.blogspot.com/2006/04/gregory-vincent-st-thomasino-=20 six-haiku.html gregory vincent st. thomasino http://eratio.blogspot.com/ http://thepostmodernromantic.blogspot.com/ "To the simple-minded, everyone is simple-minded. This movie was shot on cell-phone video. It is the footage of the head of Jacques Derrida on the body of the =20 Bigfoot. I took the Vespa, because I want to have her arms around me always." .=B7.=B7.=B7.=B7.=B7.=B7.=B7.=B7.=B7.=B7.=B7.=B7.=B7.=B7.=B7= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 16:37:25 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed those are metarules, and everyone has to follow those. /tongue firmly in cheek. On Tue, 6 Feb 2007, Elizabeth Switaj wrote: > On 2/6/07, Barry Schwabsky wrote: "But really, > one should understand that, unlike hobbyists, real artists have only the > most contingent interest in following any rules they have not set for > themselves." > > Does that include the rule that artists shouldn't be interested in rules > other people have made up? > > Elizabeth Kate Switaj > www.critjournal.com > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 18:43:43 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sez whom? Hal "The secret of managing is to keep the guys who hate you away from the guys who are undecided." --Casey Stengel Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com halvard@earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Feb 6, 2007, at 6:37 PM, Jason Quackenbush wrote: > those are metarules, and everyone has to follow those. > > /tongue firmly in cheek. > > On Tue, 6 Feb 2007, Elizabeth Switaj wrote: > >> On 2/6/07, Barry Schwabsky wrote: >> "But really, >> one should understand that, unlike hobbyists, real artists have >> only the >> most contingent interest in following any rules they have not set for >> themselves." >> >> Does that include the rule that artists shouldn't be interested in >> rules >> other people have made up? >> >> Elizabeth Kate Switaj >> www.critjournal.com >> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 20:20:02 -0500 Reply-To: pamelabeth@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pam Grossman Subject: Re: Boog City's Email List Dead, Please Resend Yr Name & Email Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable wow, pain in the ass! i keep meaning to back up my address book--but am not= sure how....? so i guess i mean i keep meaning to figure it out. Pam Grossman pamelabeth@mindspring.com also--last year sometime, we had an exchange about a kurt cobain=E2=80=93re= lated poem of mine...i think you wanted to see it...and i never got it to y= ou. i believe you are/were planning something for kurt's would-be 40th birt= hday. if you would like my poem to be involved, or might want it to be, ple= ase let me know. i really meant to send it around for publication, to try t= o time it to his birthday this year; but i didn't; i guess it's not too lat= e for online journals, if i go that route.=20 all best, pam -----Original Message----- >From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" >Sent: Feb 6, 2007 1:32 PM >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Boog City's Email List Dead, Please Resend Yr Name & Email > >hi all, > >my powerbook, keeper of all that is boog, recently died, and although =20 >a good chunk of the data was recoverable (thank you tekserve) i did =20 >lose my entire email address book. so if you were on the boog email =20 >list, or just want to be, email me your full name and email =20 >backchannel to editor@boogcity.com. (this especially holds true to new =20 >yorkers, as i send out local emails that don't get posted on this here =20 >list.) > >thanks and hope yre all swell. > >as ever, >david ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 17:21:41 -0800 Reply-To: rsillima@yahoo.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Silliman's Blog: one million visits later Comments: To: Brit-po , New Po , UK Poetry , Ann White MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ RECENT ITEMS The role of spirituality in a world that is no longer god infested (more on Rae Armantrout’s Next Life) On reaching the 1,000,000 visit mark on Silliman’s Blog On Rae Armantrout’s Next Life On Molly Ivins Pedro Almodovar’s Volver The Yam Yad brotherhood (Robert Kelly’s May Day) Kenny Goldsmith Blogging for the Poetry Foundation The ensemble film of globalization (this year it’s Babel) Experimental Forms and Issues of Accessibility (from Susanne Dyckman, Rusty Morrison, Maxine Chernoff, Paul Hoover and Jaime Robles) Critical malpractice in The Nation http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 17:27:18 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I may be wrong, and I'm surprised no one has not said anything to this effect, but a deconstructionist poem, well, would contain: nothing! aj --- Deborah Poe wrote: > My apologies if someone has mentioned...The most > recent Minnesota > Review has an interview with William V. > Spanos--interesting > connections with this discussion/thread. D- > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Don Summerhayes > Date: Tuesday, February 6, 2007 3:52 pm > Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > > Try reading Roland Barthes, especially 'The > Pleasure of the Text/' > > > > and 'Barthes by Barthes'. Not only is he a > beautiful writer, but > > he > > does not pontificate or obfuscate or mystify. > Poets are always > > aware > > that their words have more than one or two kinds > of identity or > > function (pun, rhyme, say) as well as being signs, > and that > > assigning > > meaning is always a matter of overriding > complexities. > > > > > > > > On 5-Feb-07, at 9:23 AM, Alan Sondheim wrote: > > > > > I'm not sure about the "if/then" - that implies > process; there's > > > > > also the "if then else" formulation which works > here - if A then > > > > > not A^B else ?? > > > - and process involves temporality; the "if" > also seems itself > > to > > > be on the verge or hinge. It might be the > difference between > > > temporality and a state-of-affairs, although > both can be > > considered > > > potentials.. > > > > > > I don't know if you're familiar with Spencer > Brown's Laws of > > Form - > > > he makes a similar jump between > states-of-affairs and > > temporality > > > (involving if I remember imaginary quantities) - > which again I'm > > > > > not sure of. But he starts I think by describing > "making a > > > distinction" which is already a process... > > > > > > - Alan > > > > > > > > > On Mon, 5 Feb 2007, Chris Chapman wrote: > > > > > >> I have to concentrate on Tocqueville but before > I do: > > >> > > >> when I read your description of what neither A > nor B means I > > think > > >> you're on the > > >> verge of switching logical categories from > those that stem from > > > > >> forms of > > >> division into forms of equation - 'either/or' > for 'if/then.' > > The > > >> vertical bar > > >> you use, "A/A", seems to bespeak a detachment > within self- > > identity > > >> that had > > >> begun in disjunction. > > >> > > >> It's that connection that I find interesting, > narcissistically > > and > > >> perhaps > > >> narratologically speaking. I'm thinking about > how to answer > > that > > >> more fully. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Chris > > >> (Please show me where I've been especially > obtuse with your > > >> demonstration.) > > >> > > >> Quoting Alan Sondheim : > > >> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> I'm not sure this will go through. The two > functions are duals > > of > > >>> each > > >>> other and both can be used as the 'basis' of > propositional > > logic; > > >>> in other > > >>> words, everything in propositional logic can > be derived from > > >>> either of > > >>> these. For example if you have | for "neither > A nor B" then > > A|A > > >>> is simply > > >>> "not A" and this also holds for "not both A > and B." > > >>> > > >>> And yes, grouping and distribution; they're > both "kinds" of > > >>> expulsion - > > >>> A|B simply implies either the null set or > "anywhere but here - > > > > >>> elsewhere" > > >>> - depending on whether A and B are > complements, and "not both > > A > > >>> and B" > > >>> implies both possibly elsewhere and that > "veering" - one or > > the > > >>> other > > >>> possibly, or neither, anything but the > intersection. > > >>> > > >>> I haven't thought of Derrida in terms of > narrative - can you > > say > > >>> more > > >>> about this? > > >>> > > >>> Thanks, Alan > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> On Mon, 5 Feb 2007, Chris Chapman wrote: > > >>> > > >>>> Hey Alan, that sounds really interesting: > > >>>> > > >>>> "Sheffer stroke (not both A and > > >>>> B) and its dual (neither A nor B) in terms of > the history of > > the > > >>>> shapes of > > >>>> the symbols in relation to psychoanalytical > concerns > > (feminism, the > > >>>> phallic, expulsion, etc.)." > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> How did you parse out the embedded 'or' and > its negations? > > These > > >>>> two > > >>> choices > > >>>> look identical (which is why you mention the > significance of > > >>>> 'always > > >>> already'.) > > >>>> > > >>>> Second glance shows a countermotion: one > towards grouping > > ('not > > >>>> both') and > > >>> the > > >>>> other towards distribution (neither/nor). > > >>>> > > >>>> ... > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> I find Derrida's writing to be a rich reserve > of information > > >>>> from which a > > >>>> 'routine' has been lately abstracted. For > example, essays in > > >>>> *Writing and > > >>>> Difference* teach us something about Raymond > Rousset's > > >>>> 'ultrastructuralist' > > >>>> imagination and how this affected his > criticism of Corneille. > > > > >>>> "Force and > > >>>> Signification" is, on this level, a thematic > reading of > > >>>> Rousset's "Form and > > >>>> Signification". "Violence and Metaphysics" is > a philosophical > > > > >>>> biography of > > >>>> Emmanuel Levinas as he grapples with Husserl > and Heidegger. > > We > > >>>> learn > > >>> something > > >>>> about *Totality and Infinity*. These basic > stories get lost > > in > > >>>> the drift. > > >>>> > > >>>> Chris > > >>>> Chris > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> Quoting Alan Sondheim : > > >>>> > > >>>>> I'm not sure that this will go through. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Anyway, deconstruction is not a method or a > means of > > locating > > >>>>> subtexts; it > > >>>>> relates on one hand to new criticism (in the > sense that it > > >>>>> treats the text > > >>>>> as a messy entirety) and on the other to > cultural studies > > (in > > >>>>> the sense > > >>>>> that peripheral/diacritical symptoms/tropes > are of great > > >>>>> importance - and > > >>>>> thexe often subvert or disturb and apprent > transparency of > > the > > >>>>> surface). > > >>>>> Years ago I wrote a paper that was used in a > course on > > >>>>> deconstruction (not > > >>>>> mine); it was on the difference between the > Sheffer stroke > > (not > > >>>>> both A and > > >>>>> B) and its dual (neither A nor B) in terms > of the history of > > > > >>>>> the shapes of > > >>>>> the symbols in relation to psychoanalytical > concerns > > (feminism, > > >>>>> the > > >>>>> phallic, expulsion, etc.). So there's first > of all the > > simple > > >>>>> logic > > >>>>> involved, and second, its actual process of > construction, > > its > > >>>>> history, and > > >>>>> so forth. The 'subversion' - such as it > might be considered - > > > > >>>>> is in using > > >>>>> the (logical) formation to consider issues > of origination, the > > >>>>> 'primordial,' gender, etc., from the > standpoint of this > > 'veering.'>>>>> > > >>>>> Deconstruction also references the > metaphysics underlying a > > >>>>> text - not in > > >>>>> the sense again of _sub_ text - but > underlying in the sense > > of > > >>>>> implicit > > >>>>> within it, incoherent within it, the slight > edge that tends > > >>>>> elsewhere, > > >>>>> that threatens to overturn the text. (Again, > years ago I did > > a > > >>>>> Kristevan > > >>>>> analysis of the '10 commandments' (in the > Hebrew) along > > these > > >>>>> lines.) So > > >>>>> that what might seem a barrier, is open, and > what is open, > > >>>>> might seem a > > >>>>> barrier, the gate which isn't a gate (yes, > there's a > > relation > > >>>>> to Zen I > > >>>>> think). > > >>>>> > > >>>>> All of that said, it's difficult to pin the > process down - > > >>>>> since it's > > >>>>> neither process or product; I think of it, > like glas, as a > > >>>>> discourse which > > >>>>> has always already continued and continues > to continue, a > > >>>>> discourse of > > >>>>> humans which undercuts conclusion, totality, > absolute - but > > which>>>>> nonetheless carries a very real > political component, > > activist > > >>>>> as well. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> - Alan > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > > ================================================================== > > > >>>>> ===== > > >>>>> Work on YouTube, blog at > http://nikuko.blogspot.com . Tel > > >>>>> 718-813-3285. > > >>>>> Webpage directory http://www.asondheim.org . > Email: > > >>>>> sondheim@panix.com. > > >>>>> > http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim for > theory; > > >>>>> also check > > >>>>> WVU Zwiki, Google for recent. Write for info > on books, cds, > > >>>>> performance, > > >>>>> dvds, etc. > > >>>>> > ============================================================= > > >>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > > ==================================================================== > > > >>> === > > >>> Work on YouTube, blog at > http://nikuko.blogspot.com . Tel > > >>> 718-813-3285. > > >>> Webpage directory http://www.asondheim.org . > Email: > > >>> sondheim@panix.com. > > >>> > http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim for > theory; > > also > > >>> check > > >>> WVU Zwiki, Google for recent. Write for info > on books, cds, > > >>> performance, > > >>> dvds, etc. > > >>> > ============================================================= > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > ====================================================================== > > > > = > > > Work on YouTube, blog at > http://nikuko.blogspot.com . Tel > > > 718-813-3285. > > > Webpage directory http://www.asondheim.org . > Email: > > > sondheim@panix.com. > > > http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim > for theory; also > > check> WVU Zwiki, Google for recent. Write for > info on books, cds, > > > > > performance, > > > dvds, etc. > > > > ============================================================= > > > --- ____________________________________________________________________________________ Bored stiff? Loosen up... Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games. http://games.yahoo.com/games/front ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 17:39:22 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match In-Reply-To: <54734.24.72.224.225.1170793635.squirrel@webmail.patriot.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I always thought that western poets couldn't write haiku - regardless of its construct in so far as its understood by westerners - the syllable is a word, damn it - not so much a syllable, and I wonder, if that's the problem in the basic idea. AJ --- Gwyn McVay wrote: > Eric, > > The chorus to the Hunter/Garcia song "Ripple" is a > haiku as well: > > Ripple in still water > where there is no pebble tossed > nor wind to blow > > http://arts.ucsc.edu/gdead/agdl/ripple.html > > Since the Grateful Dead and Allen Ginsberg were both > acts at the Human > Be-In, and the overlap between Beat-ness and the > Merry Pranksters was Neal > Cassady, it's not completely improbable that Hunter > and Ginsberg at least > met. > > Gwyn > > > Eric Dickey wrote: > > Anybody know the song "Crazy Fingers" by Robert > Hunter/Jerry Garcia? > > > http://www3.clearlight.com/~acsa/introjs.htm?/~acsa/songfile/CRAZYFIN.HTM > > it's all haiku, some verses (stanzas) true to > "form", some more so then > others, if you know what I mean. > > To me, this is American haiku at its best. Bucks > the form, yet > maintains gesture, impulse, intent with an element > of the surreal. > Perhaps Hunter and Ginsberg knew each other. > > Midnight on a carousel ride > Reaching for the gold ring > Down inside > --- ____________________________________________________________________________________ 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 18:19:39 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Tod Edgerton Subject: Re: QUEERING LANGUAGE READING, Sat Feb 10th at the BPC, 8 PM In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hey, Tim, never heard back from you on this--should I assume you weren't able to use any of the pieces I sent for this issue? Best, Tod Tim Peterson wrote: Join us for a poetry reading to celebrate the publication of the forthcoming EOAGH Issue 3: Queering Language (journal edited by CA Conrad, kari edwards, Paul Foster Johnson, Erica Kaufman, Jack Kimball, Tim Peterson, and Stacy Szymaszek, featuring over 100 writers including some rare surprises) Event hosted by Tim Peterson & Nathaniel Siegel Featuring readings by Jen Benka, Mark Bibbins, Julian Brolaski, Regie Cabico, David Cameron, Abigail Child, Jen Coleman, Allison Cobb, Marcella Durand reading Nicole Brossard, Joe Elliot, Corrine Fitzpatrick, E. Tracy Grinnell, Brenda Iijima, Jeffrey Jullich, Amy King, Bill Kushner, Rachel Levitsky, Ben Malkin, Filip Marinovich, Eileen Myles, Martha Oatis, Akilah Oliver, Austin Publicover, and Christina Strong Saturday February 10th, 2007 8pm-10pm @ The Bowery Poetry Club 308 Bowery (@ Bowery & Bleecker) http://www.bowerypoetry.com Admission $5.00 Proceeds will go to a charitable fund established in the memory of kari edwards. "There's the mute probability of a reciprocal lack of understanding" - Mei-mei Berssenbrugge --------------------------------- 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 18:51:30 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Tod Edgerton Subject: Ignore previous reply, it was for Tim Re: QUEERING LANGUAGE READING, Sat Feb 10th at the BPC, 8 PM In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sorry, I'm exhausted... Tim Peterson wrote: Join us for a poetry reading to celebrate the publication of the forthcoming EOAGH Issue 3: Queering Language (journal edited by CA Conrad, kari edwards, Paul Foster Johnson, Erica Kaufman, Jack Kimball, Tim Peterson, and Stacy Szymaszek, featuring over 100 writers including some rare surprises) Event hosted by Tim Peterson & Nathaniel Siegel Featuring readings by Jen Benka, Mark Bibbins, Julian Brolaski, Regie Cabico, David Cameron, Abigail Child, Jen Coleman, Allison Cobb, Marcella Durand reading Nicole Brossard, Joe Elliot, Corrine Fitzpatrick, E. Tracy Grinnell, Brenda Iijima, Jeffrey Jullich, Amy King, Bill Kushner, Rachel Levitsky, Ben Malkin, Filip Marinovich, Eileen Myles, Martha Oatis, Akilah Oliver, Austin Publicover, and Christina Strong Saturday February 10th, 2007 8pm-10pm @ The Bowery Poetry Club 308 Bowery (@ Bowery & Bleecker) http://www.bowerypoetry.com Admission $5.00 Proceeds will go to a charitable fund established in the memory of kari edwards. "There's the mute probability of a reciprocal lack of understanding" - Mei-mei Berssenbrugge --------------------------------- Don't pick lemons. See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 23:19:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nick Moudry Subject: Call for translation submissions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Q2FscXVlLCBhIGpvdXJuYWwgb2YgbmV3IHRyYW5zbGF0aW9ucywgYW5ub3VuY2VzIGEgQ2Fs bCBmb3INClN1Ym1pc3Npb25zOg0KDQoNCkNhbHF1ZSBpcyBjdXJyZW50bHkgYW5kIHBlcnBl dHVhbGx5IHNlZWtpbmcgd29yayBpbiB0aGUNCmZvbGxvd2luZyBjYXRlZ29yaWVzOg0KDQri gKIgIExpdGVyYXJ5IFRyYW5zbGF0aW9ucyBvZiBzdG9yaWVzLCBwb2VtcywgbWFuaWZlc3Rv cywNCmVzc2F5cywgZGlhcmllcywgY29taWNzLCBsZWN0dXJlcywgZXRjLiBldGMuIEZyb20g YW55IHRpbWUNCnBlcmlvZCwgYW55IGxhbmd1YWdlLCBieSBhbnkgYXV0aG9yLiBXZSBvZmZl ciBzcGFjZSBmb3INCnRyYW5zbGF0b3JzIHRvIHB1Ymxpc2ggdGhlIG9yaWdpbmFsIG1hdGVy aWFsIGFsb25nc2lkZSB0aGVpcg0KdHJhbnNsYXRpb25zLCBpZiB0aGV5IHdpc2ggdG8gZG8g c28sIGFuZCBpZiB0aGUgbWVkaWEgYWxsb3dzLg0KVHJhbnNsYXRpb25zIHNob3VsZCBiZSBh Y2NvbXBhbmllZCBieSBhIHRyYW5zbGF0b3IncyBub3RlLA0KNTAwLTE1MDAgd29yZHMsIGRl dGFpbGluZyByZWxldmFudCBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbiBwZXJ0YWluaW5nIHRvDQp0aGUgd29yayB0 cmFuc2xhdGVkLCB0aGUgYXV0aG9yLCBvciB0aGUgcHJvY2VzcyBvZiB0cmFuc2xhdGlvbg0K aXRzZWxmLg0KDQrigKIgIEludGVydmlld3Mgd2l0aCBhdXRob3JzLCB0cmFuc2xhdG9ycywg cHVibGlzaGVycyBldGMuDQoNCuKAoiAgQ3JpdGljYWwgRXNzYXlzIGZvY3VzaW5nIG9uIHNv bWUgYXNwZWN0IG9mIHdvcmtzIGluDQp0cmFuc2xhdGlvbiwgdHJhbnNsYXRpb24gc3R1ZGll cywgY29tcGFyYXRpdmUgbGl0ZXJhdHVyZSwgZXRjLg0KDQrigKIgIEJvb2sgUmV2aWV3cyBv ZiB0cmFuc2xhdGlvbnMgZWl0aGVyIHJlY2VudGx5IHB1Ymxpc2hlZCBvcg0KZm9ydGhjb21p bmcuDQogQ2hlY2sgb3VyIHdlYnNpdGUsIHd3dy5jYWxxdWVqb3VybmFsLmNvbSwgZm9yIGV4 YW1wbGVzIG9mDQpwdWJsaXNoZWQgd29yay4gSW5xdWlyaWVzIHJlZ2FyZGluZyB0aGUgc3Vp dGFiaWxpdHkgb2YgYW55DQpnaXZlbiBzdWJtaXNzaW9uIG1heSBiZSBzZW50IHZpYSBlLm1h aWwgdG8NCmNhbHF1ZXppbmVAZ21haWwuY29tLiBBbGwgaW5xdWlyaWVzIHdpbGwgYmUgYW5z d2VyZWQuDQoNCkRlYWRsaW5lIGZvciBjb25zaWRlcmF0aW9uIGZvciBpbmNsdXNpb24gaW4g Q2FscXVlIElzc3VlIDIgaXMNCkFwcmlsIDE1dGgsIDIwMDcuIElucXVpcmllcyByZWNlaXZl ZCBhZnRlciB0aGlzIGRhdGUgd2lsbCBiZQ0KY29uc2lkZXJlZCBmb3IgSXNzdWVzIDMgYW5k IDQuDQo= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 23:13:28 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charlie Rossiter Subject: haiku MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Do you really want to write haiku? Well as a response to the last several postings on the topic let me simply say,,,,, sentences, quasi-sentences, cute observations, bits of irony etc DON'T MAKE IT Please...read Gurga's book and practice in your notebooks and come back next year and show us what you have learned. Folks, when you don't know you don't know and all the wishing in the world doesn't change that. Of course if you want to write hallmark poems of any sort, haiku included, go for it...but really who wants to read that crap. I hope you don't and I don't either. Thanks Charlie -- "Poetry is good for you and so is the blues." Charlie said that. www.poetrypoetry.com where you hear poems read by poets who wrote them www.myspace.com/avantretro (hear avantretro poems) www.myspace.com/whiskeybucketbluesreview hear Charlie & Henry sing the blues www.myspace.com/jackthe71special hear Jack's original blues, blues rock & roots ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 21:25:34 -0800 Reply-To: editor@pavementsaw.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit No, Finnegan's Wake has an apostrophe. > Finnegans Wake has an apostrophe? > >>> Finnegan's Wake hung out in Cork? Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus, OH 43206 http://pavementsaw.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 14:42:38 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Glass Subject: The Voyage of the Argonauts--Experimental Music and Poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Today the mail run rendered up a stunning set of six beautiful CD's, each one the product of of Ralph Lichtensteiger's genius. Yes, I use that term openly when I speak of this gentleman. If you haven't heard of him I suggest that you go to www.lichtensteiger.de to witness the range of his thought, and his incredible generosity as a teacher. He is constantly offering up new downloads of avant-garde music, new takes on philiosophers, new insights into, and applications of, the thought and praxis of John Cage, with whom he met and conversed. And now these CD's have arrived with their promise of a voyage. The story of Jason and the Argonauts, of course tells of the quest for the Golden Fleece--a journey that has long been regarded in the West as an alchemical allegory. Here are the titles of the CD's: 1 klangschiff 2 klangsschiff 3 the remains 4 specters 5 les heterotopies 6 departure I am delighted to have a voice piece embedded in CD #6. So I myself have a seat among Jason's crew! I haven't yet had a chance to take this aural voyage, but once I've embarked, I shall report back! The CD set was pressed in a limited edition of 50. Price is 25 euros. Ralph Lichtensteiger is looking for collaborators for other projects. Several people from this list--including Alan Sondheim, Miekal And and Dan Weber-- have been featured. For more information, please contact Mr. Lichtensteiger via his website. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 22:10:31 -0800 Reply-To: jmbettridge@yahoo.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Bettridge Subject: Nathaniel Tarn on Thursday at Yale MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Please join us for a poetry reading by Nathaniel Tarn on Thursday, February 22nd, 2007, 4pm. This event is free and open to the public. For additional information about poetry at the Beinecke Library visit: http://beineckepoetry.wordpress.com/. Poet, translator, anthropologist, and editor Nathaniel Tarn is the author of more than thirty volumes of poetry, essays, and translations, including a collection of his essays on poetics and anthropology, Views from the Weaving Mountain, and his recently published Selected Poems 1950-2000. Tarn founded and edited the Cape Editions series in England in the 1960s, publishers of Charles Olson, J.H. Prynne, Ted Berrigan, and others. He is the recipient of numerous awards including the Guinness prize, a Wenner Gren fellowship, a Commonwealth of Pennsylvania fellowship, and a Rockefeller Foundation fellowship. Until his retirement in 1985, Tarn was a professor in comparative literature at Rutgers. For more information about and examples of Nathaniel Tarn’s work please visit: http://jacketmagazine.com/28/hill-tarn.html http://jacketmagazine.com/06/tarnpoem.html http://www.poetrymagazines.org.uk/magazine/record.asp?id=2049 http://www.emilydickinson.org/titanic/material/tarn1.html http://www.emilydickinson.org/titanic/material/tarn2.html Nancy Kuhl Associate Curator, The Yale Collection of American Literature The Beinecke Rare Book and Manuscript Library Yale University 121 Wall Street P.O. Box 208240 New Haven, CT 06520-8240 Phone: 203.432.2966 Fax: 203.432.4047 ____________________________________________________________________________________ No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 00:29:39 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Simon DeDeo Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Finnegan's Wake *is* an apostrophe. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 01:36:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: waggle (new work - last of series) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed waggle mr tumor goes to corner jumps off waggles jumps on bones rattler mr tumor says to mr ward you are a hollow bell mr ward you are a hollow bell http://www.asondheim.org/corner.mov http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBtvlrpWu0A YouTube (odd sound) two soundworks (.mp4 sound) for earphones or large speakers http://www.asondheim.org/tabla10.mp4 http://www.asondheim.org/tabla11.mp4 alan says how many mirrors are left i deconstruct mr tumor whose calling is mr ward now we are listening to deep music low nets very large instruments very long notes ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 03:58:24 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Dylan Welch Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit First off, the word "haiku" is both singular and plural, like the word "deer," thus it's easy to sound uninformed if you say "haikus." Even Kerouac got it wrong. But no scholars or translators or serious haiku poets anywhere will say "haikus." In my experience in dealing with thousands of people over the last fifteen years in haiku education, every single person who ever said "haikus" was also fairly clueless as to what a haiku even was, whether in English or Japanese, and typically all they knew was the misguided notion of 5-7-5 syllables. That it's a misguided notion is terribly old news to those who study and write haiku with commitment. Yet here I am dredging it up because so few people have an real understanding of English-language haiku literature -- even among serious mainstream poetry circles. Though the spans of time are different, it's like knowing only Petrarch and having little idea that anyone tried writing sonnets in English. Second, some Americans, out of deference to Japan, do consider their haiku to be "American haiku" (for example, Kerouac called some of his haiku-like creations "pops"; Ginsberg offered "American Sentences," although he also wanted them to be *different* from haiku, even in English; for 20+ years John Brandi and Steve Sanfield used to call the haiku they wrote "hoops"). Some Japanese feel that way about American haiku, too. But many don't. Some American haiku are deeply loved in Japan. I myself have been a guest in Japan of Shugyo Takaha, the president of one of Japan's three largest haiku organizations, and that surely would not happen if there were not some measure of interest and respect for what is being done in North America (I was vice president of the Haiku Society of America at the time of that particular visit to Japan). Haiku in America and Japan are *going* to be different, because the culture and languages are different. Yet they are also remarkably similar, employing techniques that CAN be transferred from one language to another, and the best poets are doing remarkably things with their haiku in English, even while sometmes casting an American slant to it (or Canadian, or British, or Irish, or Australian, etc.). This writing is approached very seriously. And like any kind of literature, there's all sorts of bad with the good, but in my personal library of about 4,000+ haiku books (nearly all in English, and this is only a fraction of haiku publications in the last century), I find much very accomplished poetry. In 1991 I helped to found the Haiku North America conference, which has been held every two years since then (coming up this summer in Winston-Salem, North Carolina), and it's just one example of the serious study and criticism of English-language haiku. Many of the papers and presentations from the conference make it into print in journals such as Modern Haiku (published since 1969, folks -- not a spring chicken as poetry publications go) and the Haiku Society of America's Frogpond (published since 1978). These journals don't even need the help of the HNA conference -- they have plenty of other criticism and discussion from other sources, too. There are other respected haiku journals that have been around for a number of years. This is not "fake" haiku they are writing. Sure, like the content of any poetry journal, some of it is better than others. But take a look at Cor van den Heuvel's *The Haiku Anthology*. There's some darn good stuff in there. And it's not by accident that it's now in its third edition. First edition was in 1974 from Doubleday, second edition in 1986 from Fireside, and the third edition, in hardback and paperback, in 1999 from W. W. Norton. That's just scratching the surface of the serious and literary haiku that has been written in this country for at least sixty or more years. Fake haiku? Sure, there's plenty of crap, but also much truly excellent work. Believe me, some of it runs circles around some of the crap that also gets written in Japan, too. Definitely, haiku in Japan has a hugely larger and lengthier history than does English-language haiku, but given that we only been at it for a hundred years (or more accurately, for most writers writing seriously today, about fifty years), what has been accomplished in a relatively short period is remarkable. As for artists and the following of rules, I am reminded of Basho, who said "learn the rules and then forget them." This statement, in lesser minds, has been used to justify an ignorance of rules, or deliberate violation of the rules simply because one is lazy. What Basho really meant was to internalize the rules so well that you no longer have to think of them, the way a chess grand master no longer even thinks of stupid moves. It's a stage of unconscious competence. Haiku has plenty of wiggle room within its "rules," and I'm also reminded of Edith Shiffert, who has said that there really never were any rules in haiku, only fashions and trends. I'm not sure how accurate that is, but it's unwise of anyone not to be aware of the tradition, and what has gone on before -- which happens with incredible frequency, and has been demonstrated by some of the "haiku" posted to this list. Nearly all of these poems need serious surgery and exhibit a gross lack of understanding of haiku necessities -- not because they are merely "rules," but because they are effective strategies. These stategies are worth following because they *work*. If you see what the masters sought, as Basho also urged, I believe you'll see why it's worthwhile to adopt techniques such as the season word, two-part structure, and so on. It's one thing to write out of a position of knowledge (that's where the best innovation usually comes from), and quite another thing to write out of naivete, which so often happens when some people think they are being "innovative" (at least with haiku). Michael P.S. Did you know that there's a Museum of Haiku Literature in Tokyo (a multimillion-dollar facility)? And did you know it has a large library of English-language haiku, and this it sponsors awards for English-language haiku through the Haiku Society of America and with the British Haiku Society? Did you know that at an event called Haiku Chicago in 1995 (held jointly by the Haiku Society of America and the Haiku International Association of Japan), the Japanese delegations said that it was the Americans who were chiefly responsible for the internationalization of haiku, not Japan -- and this was thanks not only to cultural curiosity but to the efforts of the best poets writing haiku in English over the last century. Did you know that there's an American Haiku Archives at the Californis State Library in Sacramento? That there are numerous local organizations for haiku in North America? The haiku community is a rich one on this continent, and it is respected by Japanese haiku poets. In a message dated 06-Feb-07 9:03:05 PM Pacific Standard Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU writes: Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 18:43:40 +0000 From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match Jeez. Can't we just decide that all contemporary haikus are "fake" and leave it at that? Because to my mind that would be at least giving them the benefit of the doubt, since it is extremely unlikely that a "real" sonnet, a "real" dramatic monologue, a "real" epic, a "real" ode, or likewise a "real" haiku could also be a good poem. Only starting from the assumption that using any of this forms or genres is absurd, practically kitsch, is one likely to get anywhere with them. There are societies of watercolor painters out there, according to whose members, probably, the works of any important contemporary artist who might produce a watercolor that you'd in the drawing dept. of MoMA or the Whitney are just obtuse efforts that show no sense of the rules of watercolor painting. But really, one should understand that, unlike hobbyists, real artists have only the most contingent interest in following any rules they have not set for themselves. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 04:16:59 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Dylan Welch Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wasn't aware of this song ("Crazy Fingers"), so I'm glad to know about it. However, this is a far cry from haiku at its best. It's not really haiku at all, not by ANY stretch. Not only does it hit only the superficial and wrong target of 5-7-5 syllables (apparently), but it completely misses pretty much all of the other targets, including ones more important than form. How can this be even haiku, let alone American haiku, let alone at its best? No disrespect, but such a claim strikes me as unfounded, probably even naive. Only if by "American haiku" you mean a "fake" haiku, then sure, whatever, it's grrrrrreat. But why wallow in cluelessness, for that is what it is, at least regarding serious literary haiku in English? (Of course, it may work perfectly well in other ways, but not as haiku.) Meanwhile, Alexander Jorgensen wrote "I always thought that western poets couldn't write haiku - regardless of its construct in so far as its understood by westerners." I'm curious to know what poetry this statement is based on. I've heard that kind of statement often enough -- even from folks like Robert Bly (though he's softened his stance more recently) -- and 99 times out of a hundred, the person saying it has never read (or is even aware of) much of the basic literature in English-language haiku. There's so much pseudo-haiku out there, too, and that gives an even more cloudy view of haiku as written by Westerners. Honku and spam-ku and comptuer error message haiku and so on have nearly no understanding of haiku, and certainly nothing to do with literary haiku (even while they may be fun on their own terms). It's actually TRUE that many western poets can't write haiku, but that's because most of them think they just have to count out syllables. Quite simply, they can't write haiku because they've never properly studied it as a bona fide English-language genre of poetry -- not one that's distinct from Japanese haiku, but a serious literary genre that is informed by Japanese haiku and its literary history. Michael In a message dated 06-Feb-07 9:03:05 PM Pacific Standard Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU writes: Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 11:45:13 -0800 From: Eric Dickey Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match Anybody know the song "Crazy Fingers" by Robert Hunter/Jerry Garcia? http://www3.clearlight.com/~acsa/introjs.htm?/~acsa/songfile/CRAZYFIN.HTM it's all haiku, some verses (stanzas) true to "form", some more so then others, if you know what I mean. To me, this is American haiku at its best. Bucks the form, yet maintains gesture, impulse, intent with an element of the surreal. Perhaps Hunter and Ginsberg knew each other. Midnight on a carousel ride Reaching for the gold ring Down inside ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:14:47 -0500 Reply-To: pmetres@jcu.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Philip Metres Subject: Poems of War and Peace, Redux and Apology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Folks, I overreacted a bit to Cliff Doerksen's review of that reading; below (in the reader's comments) is my more measured response. http://www.poetryfoundation.org/dispatches/dispatches.reading.html?id=179007 I'd like also to shout-out to Halvard Johnson and Michael Rothenberg for putting together "THE WAR PAPERS" for this current issue of BIG BRIDGE. It pushes into new areas of possibility. Philip Metres Associate Professor Department of English John Carroll University 20700 N. Park Blvd University Heights, OH 44118 phone: (216) 397-4528 (work) fax: (216) 397-1723 http://www.philipmetres.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:46:50 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Camille Martin Subject: Camille Martin and Bill Lavender read in Buffalo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII "A New Orleans Reunion" UB Poetics Program event featuring readings by Camille Martin and Bill Lavender Friday, 8 p.m. Big Orbit Gallery, 30 Essex St., Buffalo Free ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 11:16:01 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Tom W. Lewis" Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry In-Reply-To: <010b01c74713$182f6b20$4101a8c0@pc2b565f661721> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >-----Original Message----- >From: UB Poetics discussion group On Behalf Of Simon DeDeo >Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 0:30 > >Finnegan's Wake *is* an apostrophe. may be, but the title goes without: Finnegans Wake ... = http://www.leeds.ac.uk/library/adopt-a-book/pics/joyce_wake.jpg here's the portion of the Wake containing "damn fairy ann," btw: FW, p. 9, book 1 -- Shee, shee, shee! The jinnies is jillous agincourting=09 all the lipoleums. And the lipoleums is gonn boycottoncrezy onto=09 the one Willingdone. And the Willingdone git the band up. This=09 is bode Belchum, bonnet to busby, breaking his secred word with a=09 ball up his ear to the Willingdone. This is the Willingdone's hur-=09 old dispitchback. Dispitch desployed on the regions rare of me=09 Belchum. Salamangra! Ayi, ayi, ayi! Cherry jinnies. Figtreeyou!=09 **Damn fairy ann, Voutre.** Willingdone. That was the first joke of=09 Willingdone, tic for tac. Hee, hee, hee! This is me Belchum in=09 his twelvemile cowchooks, weet, tweet and stampforth foremost,=09 footing the camp for the jinnies. Drink a sip, drankasup, for he's=09 as sooner buy a guinness than he'd stale store stout. This is Roo-=09 shious balls. This is a ttrinch. This is mistletropes. This is Canon=09 Futter with the popynose. -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] = On Behalf Of Robin Hamilton Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 15:43 To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry << has anyone else in List-land tried reading Finnegans Wake with an Irish accent? you pick up on a lot of buried information if you try this -- it dawned on me reading one passage that "damn fairy ann" could be read as "donc fait rien" -- then the whole page morphed into a kind of Joycean French argot, before my eyes... and no, I was perfectly sober at the = time. ... tl >> Joyce's words above would seem to play on the British squaddies' surded=20 French developed in WW1 -- "San fairy ann" for "=E7a ne fait rien". see: http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-san1.htm Robin Hamilton ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:34:52 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eric Dickey Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Michael, fine, it's fake haiku at its best. In a footnote to Crazy Fingers in Robert Hunter's collection of songs, Box of Rain, he noted that his intent was haiku and that some verses of the song are closer than others. Of course Eric Michael Dylan Welch wrote: I wasn't aware of this song ("Crazy Fingers"), so I'm glad to know about it. However, this is a far cry from haiku at its best. It's not really haiku at all, not by ANY stretch. Not only does it hit only the superficial and wrong target of 5-7-5 syllables (apparently), but it completely misses pretty much all of the other targets, including ones more important than form. How can this be even haiku, let alone American haiku, let alone at its best? No disrespect, but such a claim strikes me as unfounded, probably even naive. Only if by "American haiku" you mean a "fake" haiku, then sure, whatever, it's grrrrrreat. But why wallow in cluelessness, for that is what it is, at least regarding serious literary haiku in English? (Of course, it may work perfectly well in other ways, but not as haiku.) Meanwhile, Alexander Jorgensen wrote "I always thought that western poets couldn't write haiku - regardless of its construct in so far as its understood by westerners." I'm curious to know what poetry this statement is based on. I've heard that kind of statement often enough -- even from folks like Robert Bly (though he's softened his stance more recently) -- and 99 times out of a hundred, the person saying it has never read (or is even aware of) much of the basic literature in English-language haiku. There's so much pseudo-haiku out there, too, and that gives an even more cloudy view of haiku as written by Westerners. Honku and spam-ku and comptuer error message haiku and so on have nearly no understanding of haiku, and certainly nothing to do with literary haiku (even while they may be fun on their own terms). It's actually TRUE that many western poets can't write haiku, but that's because most of them think they just have to count out syllables. Quite simply, they can't write haiku because they've never properly studied it as a bona fide English-language genre of poetry -- not one that's distinct from Japanese haiku, but a serious literary genre that is informed by Japanese haiku and its literary history. Michael In a message dated 06-Feb-07 9:03:05 PM Pacific Standard Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU writes: Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 11:45:13 -0800 From: Eric Dickey Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match Anybody know the song "Crazy Fingers" by Robert Hunter/Jerry Garcia? http://www3.clearlight.com/~acsa/introjs.htm?/~acsa/songfile/CRAZYFIN.HTM it's all haiku, some verses (stanzas) true to "form", some more so then others, if you know what I mean. To me, this is American haiku at its best. Bucks the form, yet maintains gesture, impulse, intent with an element of the surreal. Perhaps Hunter and Ginsberg knew each other. Midnight on a carousel ride Reaching for the gold ring Down inside --------------------------------- Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:49:55 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: FW: blogging libby In-Reply-To: <006301c74a91$c52b96b0$afd7fea9@tuna6fish> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable In case =AD like me =AD you are old enough to be getting retroactive Watergate Hearing thrills from the Libby trial, my friend, the musician/composer, Hal Hughes, sends this note with the invaluable links to the onsite bloggers an= d their streaming commentary etc. from the trial itself. One thing that appears most likely true =AD the more the trial gets close to the whole truth of Cheney=B9s orchestration of the outing of a CIA operative = - is that the iron clad, so-called Vice President is no doubt off any need fo= r laxitives! It still astonishes me that the Democrats & Company have not gone ballistic over this =8Couting=B9 and demanded Cheney=B9s resignation and arrest for putting Valerie Plame=B9s CIA associates at risk of their own lives. (I know Monica L and Clinton threatened the survival of the Republic, etc, but...). Stephen V=20 Subject: Fw: blogging libby One of the interesting things about the Libby trial is that there are bloggers in attendance as well as "conventional" journalists. That means a more or less steady stream of commentary flowing instantly from the courtroom to whomever is interested. There have been a few posting on Huffington Post. I finally troubled to check out this blog today: http://firedoglake.com/. They have a fat file of articles under "CIA Leak" and "Libby Case", and I get the impression they'll be posting the evidence as it's released to the media - the same day it's introduced in court. That's pretty juicy stuff. =20 I have a feeling at least one veep is starting to squirm. However you feel about schadenfreude, I bet you'll pay attention if he has to testify under oath. Mr. Fitzgerald seems eminently qualified to extract some truth from under that sclerotic, malevolent facade. The "just gossip" and "I forget" defenses don't appear to be holding up very well. =20 I've been bugging y'all for a long time about this case, and the way it's unfolding has not lessened my sense that it could be the key to collapsing the whole Bushevik house of cards. Following this one thread leads to the entire web of deceit. (So do any number of others, but this one is IN COURT NOW. Congress can bluster and filibuster all it wants, and people can urge impeachment and wave "stop the war" signs, but criminal court is where thes= e characters belong, and where they're most likely to get their comeuppance. Locking them up would send a healthy message to other politicians and to ou= r former friends around the world. =20 HMH ------ End of Forwarded Message ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 11:04:40 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Crane's Bill Books Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Didn't Shiki write forcefully about the hazards of mistaking the = technique for the poetry--and didn't his own haiku stretch the rules to, = but not beyond, the breaking point? I don't read Japanese, so I am = characterizing Shiki from translations, and from what I've read about = him in English. I'm curious, though: does anyone who does read Japanese think the = syllable count (if that's the right way to put it) in haiku is really = arbitrary, or might it have develop organically out of qualities in the = language itself, the way blank verse is said to reflect rhythms natural = to English? This thread has been really wonderful to read--thanks, everyone. J.A. Lee Crane's Bill Books ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:20:37 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Fwd: Solicitation Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed Send your responses directly to Clemente... Begin forwarded message: > From: Clemente Pad=EDn <7w1k4nc9@adinet.com.uy> > Date: February 4, 2007 6:18:15 PM CST > To: > Subject: [webartery] Sollicitation > Reply-To: webartery@yahoogroups.com > > Dear friends, a friend of mine, Prof. Susana Romano Sued (that is =20 > curator of an event on experimental poetry in Cordoba, Argentina, =20 > in next august 07) is travelling to New York and Los Angeles. > > She ask me for addresses and emails of poets and profesors academic =20= > in Letters and Litterature for to see and know about Norteamerican =20 > reality in this field. > > I gave her some emails. If you want to talk with her, please, write =20= > to Susana Romano Sued: > susana.romano@gmail.com > > or write to me. > > Thanks in advance, fraternal greetings, ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:45:53 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match/HAIKU LIFE In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Many deep thanks to Michael Dylan Welch for his letters affirming the LIFE of American Haiku and providing so many insights and so much information. A few times before Haiku has been discussed (and dissed one might say a bit)-and so often concerning only the syllable counting as though distinguishing right foot from the left means one knows how to walk. A lot of what i know have learned from reading Japanese and American haiku is ways of awareness in the world--practicing different ways of seeing things, movements, colors and how their particualrs cab be continually framed and reframed within a very few words, not only to present juxtapostion, but in doing so to provide as Michael wrote, the data for making a leap inside the mind--opening into a whole other view of the "scenes" so to speak. Continually training the eye in finding particulars among all that is happening within an instant--the haiku a way of learning to see distinctly that which is hidden in plain sight by the too distracted superficial attention. Out of a mass of colors, forms, movements, exact notations of a particular moment in a specific time of year--emerge the particles in the ongoing flow which present paradoxes, contradcitions, things far apart suddenly brought close. A haiku is a form of documentary which "opens one's eyes"--and if one is so inclined, mind, heart, soul, physical awarenesses. The importance of the time element is to indicate not a stillness bu a cotinual process of change, in which the insatnt presented in the poem is taking part--a transitory movement from the no longer present of the moment before to the not yet present of the moment after. On the one hand the teeming chaos of the moment in its incredible profusion of details, on the other, the nothingness, unknowable--to see with clarity a continual becoming--out of chaos and nothingness, that which is. Hiaku have brought a continual daily work with seeing, hearing, moving--details within each instant--site/sight/cite--oscillations of an opening outwo/ards and a paring to the bare bones. Haiku bring not just forms of artistic or mystical "illuminations" as it were--also bring evidences cotinually of social contradictions, paradoxes all around one. To see the world from a crowded bus or within a very confined space--and find in them both a continual happening. Through barred windows to see everyday the same view yet to find moment by moment it is changing. I am just touching on a very small area of what study of Haiku can bring for writing, visual work, being alive. It's a form of disicpline one may practice at any time any where. Even in dreams it can happen. There is also the spirtual aspect of haiku as a Way. This can be found in a great many poets practising haiku as a method among spiritual disicplines. Pascal wrote: "it is not the elements which are new, but the order of their arrangement." To work with arrangements of course you have to continually discpline the unedrstanding of the elements, and i think Haiku teaches one in this, how to go about finding what the elements are at any moment. Time spent studying cracks in a wall can be an opening into the anarkeyological possibilities which are ever available. The famous text by Basho called "Learn from the Pine" is a great introduction to ways of working with Haiku as a discipline in living to find ways to see and hear and move. In this way, the making of the Haiku is like an instant between the profusion of reality and the nothingness. Through discipline "composition must occur in an instant." Robert Hass edited a great collection of Haiku and prose by Basho, Suson & Issa called The Essential Haiku--you can find "learn from the Pine" in there-- to show how hard it to write haiku--i wrote his in an instant from what seen outside the window you can see that i wil have to live a hundred years to make aven an average one but what i learn from reading others'--has helped change many ways of seeing for me and i am very thank ful to Haiku for this-- ghetto winter street dope man, bible man, crack hos-- all call the crow "thief" >From: Michael Dylan Welch >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match >Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 03:58:24 EST > > >First off, the word "haiku" is both singular and plural, like the word >"deer," thus it's easy to sound uninformed if you say "haikus." Even >Kerouac got >it wrong. But no scholars or translators or serious haiku poets anywhere >will >say "haikus." In my experience in dealing with thousands of people over the >last fifteen years in haiku education, every single person who ever said >"haikus" was also fairly clueless as to what a haiku even was, whether in >English >or Japanese, and typically all they knew was the misguided notion of 5-7-5 >syllables. That it's a misguided notion is terribly old news to those who >study >and write haiku with commitment. Yet here I am dredging it up because so >few >people have an real understanding of English-language haiku literature -- >even among serious mainstream poetry circles. Though the spans of time are >different, it's like knowing only Petrarch and having little idea that >anyone >tried writing sonnets in English. > >Second, some Americans, out of deference to Japan, do consider their haiku >to be "American haiku" (for example, Kerouac called some of his haiku-like >creations "pops"; Ginsberg offered "American Sentences," although he also >wanted >them to be *different* from haiku, even in English; for 20+ years John >Brandi > and Steve Sanfield used to call the haiku they wrote "hoops"). Some >Japanese feel that way about American haiku, too. But many don't. Some >American >haiku are deeply loved in Japan. I myself have been a guest in Japan of >Shugyo >Takaha, the president of one of Japan's three largest haiku organizations, >and >that surely would not happen if there were not some measure of interest and >respect for what is being done in North America (I was vice president of >the >Haiku Society of America at the time of that particular visit to Japan). >Haiku >in America and Japan are *going* to be different, because the culture and >languages are different. Yet they are also remarkably similar, employing >techniques that CAN be transferred from one language to another, and the >best poets >are doing remarkably things with their haiku in English, even while >sometmes >casting an American slant to it (or Canadian, or British, or Irish, or >Australian, etc.). This writing is approached very seriously. And like any >kind of >literature, there's all sorts of bad with the good, but in my personal >library of about 4,000+ haiku books (nearly all in English, and this is >only a >fraction of haiku publications in the last century), I find much very >accomplished poetry. > >In 1991 I helped to found the Haiku North America conference, which has >been >held every two years since then (coming up this summer in Winston-Salem, >North Carolina), and it's just one example of the serious study and >criticism of >English-language haiku. Many of the papers and presentations from the >conference make it into print in journals such as Modern Haiku (published >since >1969, folks -- not a spring chicken as poetry publications go) and the >Haiku >Society of America's Frogpond (published since 1978). These journals don't >even >need the help of the HNA conference -- they have plenty of other criticism >and discussion from other sources, too. There are other respected haiku >journals that have been around for a number of years. This is not "fake" >haiku they >are writing. Sure, like the content of any poetry journal, some of it is >better than others. But take a look at Cor van den Heuvel's *The Haiku >Anthology*. There's some darn good stuff in there. And it's not by >accident that it's >now in its third edition. First edition was in 1974 from Doubleday, second >edition in 1986 from Fireside, and the third edition, in hardback and >paperback, >in 1999 from W. W. Norton. That's just scratching the surface of the >serious >and literary haiku that has been written in this country for at least >sixty >or more years. Fake haiku? Sure, there's plenty of crap, but also much >truly >excellent work. Believe me, some of it runs circles around some of the >crap >that also gets written in Japan, too. Definitely, haiku in Japan has a >hugely >larger and lengthier history than does English-language haiku, but given >that >we only been at it for a hundred years (or more accurately, for most >writers >writing seriously today, about fifty years), what has been accomplished in >a >relatively short period is remarkable. > >As for artists and the following of rules, I am reminded of Basho, who said >"learn the rules and then forget them." This statement, in lesser minds, >has >been used to justify an ignorance of rules, or deliberate violation of the >rules simply because one is lazy. What Basho really meant was to >internalize the >rules so well that you no longer have to think of them, the way a chess >grand master no longer even thinks of stupid moves. It's a stage of >unconscious >competence. Haiku has plenty of wiggle room within its "rules," and I'm >also >reminded of Edith Shiffert, who has said that there really never were any >rules in haiku, only fashions and trends. I'm not sure how accurate that >is, but >it's unwise of anyone not to be aware of the tradition, and what has gone >on >before -- which happens with incredible frequency, and has been >demonstrated >by some of the "haiku" posted to this list. Nearly all of these poems need >serious surgery and exhibit a gross lack of understanding of haiku >necessities >-- not because they are merely "rules," but because they are effective >strategies. These stategies are worth following because they *work*. If >you see >what the masters sought, as Basho also urged, I believe you'll see why >it's >worthwhile to adopt techniques such as the season word, two-part >structure, and >so on. It's one thing to write out of a position of knowledge (that's >where >the best innovation usually comes from), and quite another thing to write >out >of naivete, which so often happens when some people think they are being >"innovative" (at least with haiku). > >Michael > >P.S. Did you know that there's a Museum of Haiku Literature in Tokyo (a >multimillion-dollar facility)? And did you know it has a large library of >English-language haiku, and this it sponsors awards for English-language >haiku >through the Haiku Society of America and with the British Haiku Society? >Did you >know that at an event called Haiku Chicago in 1995 (held jointly by the >Haiku >Society of America and the Haiku International Association of Japan), the >Japanese delegations said that it was the Americans who were chiefly >responsible >for the internationalization of haiku, not Japan -- and this was thanks not >only to cultural curiosity but to the efforts of the best poets writing >haiku >in English over the last century. Did you know that there's an American >Haiku > Archives at the Californis State Library in Sacramento? That there are >numerous local organizations for haiku in North America? The haiku >community is a >rich one on this continent, and it is respected by Japanese haiku poets. > > >In a message dated 06-Feb-07 9:03:05 PM Pacific Standard Time, >LISTSERV@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU writes: > >Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 18:43:40 +0000 >From: Barry Schwabsky >Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match > >Jeez. Can't we just decide that all contemporary haikus are "fake" and >leave >it at that? > >Because to my mind that would be at least giving them the benefit of the >doubt, since it is extremely unlikely that a "real" sonnet, a "real" >dramatic >monologue, a "real" epic, a "real" ode, or likewise a "real" haiku could >also >be a good poem. Only starting from the assumption that using any of this >forms >or genres is absurd, practically kitsch, is one likely to get anywhere >with >them. > >There are societies of watercolor painters out there, according to whose >members, probably, the works of any important contemporary artist who might >produce a watercolor that you'd in the drawing dept. of MoMA or the Whitney > are >just obtuse efforts that show no sense of the rules of watercolor >painting. >But really, one should understand that, unlike hobbyists, real artists >have >only the most contingent interest in following any rules they have not set >for >themselves. _________________________________________________________________ FREE online classifieds from Windows Live Expo – buy and sell with people you know http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwex0010000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://expo.live.com?s_cid=Hotmail_tagline_12/06 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 23:33:05 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anny Ballardini Subject: Re: Camille Martin and Bill Lavender read in Buffalo In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Excellent news! On 2/7/07, Camille Martin wrote: > > "A New Orleans Reunion" > > UB Poetics Program event featuring readings > by Camille Martin and Bill Lavender > > Friday, 8 p.m. > Big Orbit Gallery, 30 Essex St., Buffalo > > Free > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 01:22:28 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cralan kelder Subject: tomorrow night at the sugar factory in amsterdam In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d70702071433s6ca5cbf9te3e2e3824bd94cd2@mail.gmail.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable We know you=B9re out there, we posted an invite last month, and somebody from the list came!; Tomorrow Night at the Sugar Factory Thursday, February 8, 2007 The Open Stanza presents; Guest writers from Paris; Jennifer K Dick (USA) Joe Ross (USA) and local residents; Karlijn Groet (NL) =20 Dipika Mukherjee (IND) sin sin (IRL) http://theopenstanza.wordsinhere.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 23:37:35 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charlie Rossiter Subject: haiku MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Seriously...I'm trying to be helpful I tried in an earlier message to tell you...but that didn't get through so let me try again...some of you you sound like undergraduates calling the library and essentially asking the reference librarian to do your research for you Just read a couple good books about haiku and stop guessing and second guessing about what haiku in English is all about. That kind of stuff only makes you look foolish to people who know about the subject. I hope you folks spending time writing notes about haiku are really interested...once you get it, you might write some memorable poems...haiku can actually be a powerful form of poetic expression...go for it if I sound impatient it's because the second-guessers (duh, I wonder if Sato made that up) are really tiresome... don't take this the wrong way....the goal is always better poetry...haiku or otherwise charlie -- "Poetry is good for you and so is the blues." Charlie said that. www.poetrypoetry.com where you hear poems read by poets who wrote them www.myspace.com/avantretro (hear avantretro poems) www.myspace.com/whiskeybucketbluesreview hear Charlie & Henry sing the blues www.myspace.com/jackthe71special hear Jack's original blues, blues rock & roots ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 07:12:09 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: haiku In-Reply-To: <3627.68.78.101.223.1170913055.squirrel@www.poetrypoetry.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I don't think there can a haiku better than this one by Paul Violi, which I am proud to have published in a magazine I co-edited many years ago. I don't believe it follows a single one of your rules, nor does it follow the conventional syllable count, but it blows my mind: Don't look at my face. No change, just large bills. One wrong move will be your last. Charlie Rossiter wrote: Seriously...I'm trying to be helpful I tried in an earlier message to tell you...but that didn't get through so let me try again...some of you you sound like undergraduates calling the library and essentially asking the reference librarian to do your research for you Just read a couple good books about haiku and stop guessing and second guessing about what haiku in English is all about. That kind of stuff only makes you look foolish to people who know about the subject. I hope you folks spending time writing notes about haiku are really interested...once you get it, you might write some memorable poems...haiku can actually be a powerful form of poetic expression...go for it if I sound impatient it's because the second-guessers (duh, I wonder if Sato made that up) are really tiresome... don't take this the wrong way....the goal is always better poetry...haiku or otherwise charlie -- "Poetry is good for you and so is the blues." Charlie said that. www.poetrypoetry.com where you hear poems read by poets who wrote them www.myspace.com/avantretro (hear avantretro poems) www.myspace.com/whiskeybucketbluesreview hear Charlie & Henry sing the blues www.myspace.com/jackthe71special hear Jack's original blues, blues rock & roots ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 07:12:50 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beckett Subject: new now at e-x-c-h-a-n-g-e-v-a-l-u-e-s... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Catherine Daly interviewed by Thomas Fink: http://willtoexchange.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 08:58:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Vernon Frazer in Mad Hatter's Review MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.madhattersreview.com/issue7/whatnots_frazer.shtml ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 10:04:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Kelleher Subject: OlsonNow Updates Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed A Note from Henry Ferrini about his film on Olson Kyle Schlesinger/Olson's Melville Bibliography Richard Haisma/Olson Dance Performance in Rochester There should also be some additions to the Documents page by the weekend. _______________________ Michael Kelleher Artistic Director Just Buffalo Literary Center Market Arcade 617 Main St., Suite 202A Buffalo, NY 14203 t. 716.832.5400 f. 716.270.0184 http://www.justbuffalo.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 08:47:11 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: haiku /Violi In-Reply-To: <701194.99666.qm@web86003.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > I don't think there can a haiku better than this one by Paul Violi, which I am > proud to have published in a magazine I co-edited many years ago. I don't > believe it follows a single one of your rules, nor does it follow the > conventional syllable count, but it blows my mind: > > Don't look at my face. > No change, just large bills. > One wrong move will be your last. Actually, I think this one comes from a side-set genre of haiku that Al Capone once christened (after a sweet heist by one of his boys) as a Noirku Though the French are fond of calling Paul Violi's particular piece a Noircoup The French apparently love to apply a "coup" wherever possible to both elegant and inelegant seizures, Paul V's piece being of the elegant variety, Obviously. I hope the introduction of this particular genre/convention is "helpful", too. Stephen V http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > > > Charlie Rossiter wrote: > Seriously...I'm trying to be helpful > > I tried in an earlier message to tell you...but that didn't get through so > let me try again...some of you you sound like undergraduates calling the > library and essentially asking the reference librarian to do your research > for you > > Just read a couple good books about haiku and stop guessing and second > guessing about what haiku in English is all about. That kind of stuff > only makes you look foolish to people who know about the subject. > > I hope you folks spending time writing notes about haiku are really > interested...once you get it, you might write some memorable poems...haiku > can actually be a powerful form of poetic expression...go for it > > if I sound impatient it's because the second-guessers (duh, I wonder if > Sato made that up) are really tiresome... > > don't take this the wrong way....the goal is always better poetry...haiku > or otherwise > > charlie > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 16:47:59 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tim Peterson Subject: Poetry in the Presence of Sculpture, Sat Feb 11, 3PM at the Noguchi Museum Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Poetry in the Presence of Sculpture Brenda Iijima Jill Magi Sawako Nakayasu Srikanth Reddy Read in the exquisite museum and garden dedicated to the art of sculptor Isamu Noguchi (1904-1988). Sunday, February 11, 3:00pm @ The Noguchi Museum 9-01 33 rd Road at Vernon Blvd., Long Island City (N to Broadway in Queens, walk west on Broadway to Vernon Blvd. For information about shuttle buses to the Museum, visit www.noguchi.org) $10, $5 for seniors and students, Free to Poets House & Noguchi Museum Members Co-sponsored by The Noguchi Museum ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 16:49:52 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tim Peterson Subject: correction (Noguchi sculpture event) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed The reading is Sunday, February 11 -- my mistake ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 09:19:24 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lewis LaCook Subject: The cries of peacocks - Xanax Pop by Lewis LaCook Comments: To: rhizome , webartery , netbehaviour MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The cries of peacocks It's my own ghost I can't get away from. Living on the high wire, the cries of peacocks mold your babies out of the lichens I sleep cradled in, candles lobbing gardens into my dreams. I tamp a cigarette out and ripples plume like the mooncalf's nipples, fat as apples, waiting for teeth. Your night sirens like to ride etiquette and property, muscles stung and greening bulbs break pendulous earth, mocking hours. All night long. That morning, the lowest octaves came blushing through your gardens, shelling milk from pods where clocks seed the bedroom, upchucking stars. Think of my phenomenology as menagerie, bestial catastrophe, lets you ferment and pass away. Lewis LaCook Director of Web Development Abstract Outlooks Media 440-989-6481 http://www.abstractoutlooks.com Abstract Outlooks Media - Premium Web Hosting, Development, and Art Photography http://www.lewislacook.org lewislacook.org - New Media Poetry and Poetics http://www.xanaxpop.org Xanax Pop - the Poetry of Lewis LaCook --------------------------------- Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 12:43:36 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ann Bogle Subject: Basal distance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit if it didn t have periods and commas it d be a poem about apostrophes and question marks about scenery do you have scenery a winter ride to the lebanese psychiatrist the reason to go to the psychiatrist is so the men won t have to but tell them about it later so they can benefit from it i said my anxiety on tuesdays is revolting it used to be workshop day i used to like LIKE workshop day but ten years without workshop comma tuesdays eat me what is causing your reaction he asked war i said he said are you like the rest of us and you disagree with war yes i said i disagree with war and he said only one man agrees with war but he won t go to the war then he told me try meditation and i said it s not enough you must have a teacher for meditation on tuesdays it s like an elevator is going up and down inside my body s frame not quote unquote mental an elevator is going up and down inside my body s frame on tuesdays not italics mental italics instead basal dash basal would be better than mental double dash basal distress would be a better nomer than quote unquote mental illness which i reject as a label we experience it for them or driving in a winter glass to the doctor at eight early but can get the gist if you tell them about it and save them red tape paperwork and general satisfaction of seeking treatment i would call it basal distance or basal distress not mental illness i heard the african american woman psychologist say her wards these white people are mentally sick are white sick ones i said raising my hand basal distance how long would it take to change mental illness to basal distance question mark _http://annbogle.blogspot.com_ (http://annbogle.blogspot.com) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 13:36:21 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "C. A. Conrad" Subject: contributions to the Frank Sherlock EMERGENCY FUND, an update... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to the many many folks interested in helping Frank Sherlock! There is an alternative method of payment soon to be available for those wishing to make a tax deductible contribution. Stay tuned for that. There will be fund raiser events in New York City and Philadelphia, please also stay tune for those. Thanks again, from the friends of Frank Sherlock ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 13:37:06 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "C. A. Conrad" Subject: kari edwards POETRY MEMORIAL EVENT now online MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The entire event is online at ROCK HEALS, click and go... _http://www.rockheals.com/archives/2007/02/week_97_is_audi.html_ (http://www.rockheals.com/archives/2007/02/week_97_is_audi.html) we miss you kari ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 14:12:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Dylan Welch Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Haiku was originally hokku, the starting verse for haikai no renga (modern term is renku), which alternated 5-7-5 and 7-7 verses in a linked pattern with many rules. Renga can be said to have evolved from waka (modern term is tanka, which means short song -- even today, tanka are chanted at the annual Imperial New Year poetry party), a poem usually by a single person in a 5-7-5-7-7 rhythm. Waka (which means "Japanese song")in turn evolved from uta (which means song). This evolution spans 1,300+ years, and was influenced by Chinese. The traditional syllable count for haiku in Japan is indeed natural to the language, and in Japan one can find public signs that naturally follow a 5-7-5 pattern, yet of course are not intended as haiku. Yes, of course, mere technique is not poetry. However, the vast majority of the public in North America isn't even aware of the necessary techniques. Only if you know them can you begin to play with them, as the great haiku masters did in Japan -- and the best haiku writers writing in English also do. They write out of knowledge, not naivete. Yet in North America so many people blithely -- and even boldly -- blunder on with what they think of as haiku, and even claim as "experimental" or avant garde, when really it is yet another clueless attempt at what has been done a thousand times before and branded a failure. The words in the "Crazy Fingers" song, have practically *nothing* to do with haiku, despite the claim. Fine enough lyrics, I suppose, but lacking any kind of understanding of haiku. Great if it's "influenced" or "inspired" by haiku, but that's the most that can be said of it. But why dwell on something so minor and tangential to haiku when serious literary haiku is available for your attention? It baffles me why there's such a wide gap between a literary understanding of haiku (in English and Japanese) and the popular (mis)perceptions of haiku, even among English professors and practicing poets. I concur with Charlie Rossiter who has said for folks to read a book like Lee Gurga's *Haiku: A Poet's Guide* and then to come back in a year to show what you've learned. There is SO much regarding haiku (and yes, starting with necessary and effective technique) that the vast majority of the public does not know. It's as idiotic as me picking up a trumpet for the first or second time and thinking I can play trumpet like Louis Armstrong. Why do people offer their "haiku" to the public with equal naivete? Meanwhile, someone asked about the meaning of the words in the Laurie Anderson song, "Kokoku." With help from a Japanese translator friend, here's a loose translation of the meaning (these words have nothing akin with haiku): Kumowaku yamano. Watashino sakebi. the mountains where the clouds are gathering, my scream Watashino koewo. Ushano kokoku. my voice (acc.), (I am not sure what Ushano is, assuming it's Ushinau or Ushinatta, the lost homeland) Watashiwa sokoni. Watashiwa asobu. I, there, I play Watashiwa sokoni. Watashiwa asobu. I, there, I play Mewotoji. Mewotoji. Kikunowa kotori. closing my eyes, closing my eyes, what I hear is the little bird's song Watashino sakebi. Watashino koewo my scream, my voice (acc.) Getting back to haiku: To tap into the haiku scene, I recommend joining the Haiku Society of America (www.hsa-haiku.org) or Haiku Canada (search online for it), subscribing to one of the many fine haiku journals out there, especially Modern Haiku (www.modernhaiku.org), and perhaps attending one of many local haiku groups. In California, I know of thriving groups in San Francisco and San Jose, another in Sacramento, one in Southern California that I think currently meets in the Pasadena area. There are groups in Colorado, Boston, New York City, Chicago, North Carolina, Western Massachusetts, the Baltimore area, in Toronto, Ottawa, and B.C. -- and more. Also groups in Australia and New Zealand, in England and in many other European countries (there's a surprisingly large and active haiku scene in Croatia, with some of the world's best haiku poets there -- go figure). Online, for haiku, got to www.theheronsnest.com, or check out www.simplyhaiku.com for a full range of articles, interviews, and translations in addition to poems in various Japanese genres (including haiku, senryu, tanka, haibun, and haiga) -- at this site the articles strikes me as better than the poems, mind you. But there's lots out there, and much to be wary of, but haiku ain't just what you were taught in grade school. If any of you are in the Vancouver, B.C., area and might be interested, I'll be giving a lecture and presentation on haiku at the main Vancouver Public Library in the evening on March 12, as part of the Vancouver Cherry Blossom Festival, which this year attracted about 1,150 entries to its Haiku Invitational, for which I served as a cojudge. Michael -----Original Message----- Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 11:04:40 -0700 From: Crane's Bill Books Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match Didn't Shiki write forcefully about the hazards of mistaking the = technique for the poetry--and didn't his own haiku stretch the rules to, = but not beyond, the breaking point? I don't read Japanese, so I am = characterizing Shiki from translations, and from what I've read about = him in English. I'm curious, though: does anyone who does read Japanese think the = syllable count (if that's the right way to put it) in haiku is really = arbitrary, or might it have develop organically out of qualities in the = language itself, the way blank verse is said to reflect rhythms natural = to English? This thread has been really wonderful to read--thanks, everyone. J.A. Lee Crane's Bill Books ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 19:39:32 +0000 Reply-To: editor@fulcrumpoetry.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Fulcrum Annual Subject: Poets Kapovich, Maxwell, Nikolayev, Feb 15 in Harvard Square MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Poets Katia Kapovich, Glyn Maxwell, Philip Nikolayev will read from their= work. Thursday, February 15, 7:00 p.m. at Lame Duck Books / Pierre Menard Gall= ery, 10 Arrow Street, Harvard Square (nearby landmark: Cafe Pamplona, wal= k up Arrow from there). Free, reception to follow. Queries: 617-868-2022 http://fulcrumpoetry.com http://www.lameduckbooks.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 14:56:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Dylan Welch Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match/HAIKU LIFE In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thanks for your message below, David-Baptiste. I like what you say about how haiku trains the eye. It's like a photographer who "frames" images in his or her mind, even if without a camera. Before I was married, it was informative to take a date to the beach, because I found it revealing of the person to see if they'd notice the tiniest shells or driftwood, and have curiosity for the natural world, or if they limited their conversation to shopping or work or whatever, without much interaction with the environment. Call it, perhaps, a "haiku mind," whether one writes haiku or not -- or even any poetry at all. It's a matter of being present and aware, and it certainly helps one write haiku, which is a poetry of the five senses, with a sensitivity to the seasons and thus to nature. It can also be a way of life, a part of one's cosmology. For what it's worth, I don't think of the haiku I write as "American haiku." It's haiku. Haiku deserves a lot of dissing. That's because there's a boat-load of crap out there -- the pseudohaiku, of course, but also the trivial stuff that most people write and think is haiku (though I can hardly blame them, given how haiku is nearly uniformly mistaught in schools). And even those who excel at haiku play a percentage game (as does any poet). I think it was Basho who said one is a master if you write just ten excellent haiku in a lifetime (we have a record, I believe, of something like 1,500 of Basho's haiku; Issa is known to have written 20,000, and most of them are weak or just average). But I think haiku has earned an extra amount of dissing because is strikes so many people as easy, and people dash 'em off, or pervert them as literature by writing flippantly. In his excellent book, *Empire of Signs*, Roland Barthes says "haiku has this rather fantasmagorical property: that we always suppose we ourselves can write such things easily." For anyone who wants to write seriously *about* haiku, or to study it, I am pretty sure that they will see a difference between the latest pseudo-haiku book like *Haikus for Jews* or *Honku* (about road rage, etc.) and serious literary haiku written in English. However, there's a middle ground between the two that too many people think of as haiku, yet is still far wide of the mark, as any kind of literature. That stuff deserves dissing, too. What is odd is that some people diss the literary achievements because they are naive enough to say that, well, it's not 5-7-5. People cling so hard to that notion, for reasons that I can't fathom. I can only imagine that it's because they learned this incorrect rule (for haiku in English) at an impressionable age, when their teachers could do no wrong, and thus they swallowed it hook, line, and sinker. For me, haiku makes perfect use of what Eliot called the objective correlative. Haiku dwells on things (nouns) that carry meaning and emotion ("no ideas but in things"). Haiku (even literary haiku) can be many things to different people, but to me it has a spiritual aspect, a sort of approach to infinity (by approaching the narrowest of image-moments). By the way, this spirituality that I find in haiku has little to do with Zen (another misperception of haiku, which the Japanese are puzzled at regarding the American understanding of haiku -- thanks to folks like Alan Watts, R. H. Blyth, Jack Kerouac and other Beats, who promoted haiku from that perspective). I teach a class on using haiku techniques to improve your longer poetry. The point of view, the awareness, that David-Baptiste mentioned in his message is a big part of that, but so are the ability to control objectivity and subjectivity, to create implication through juxtaposition (and thus create intuitive, emotional, or even intellectual effects), and a reliance on seasons as archetypes to add weight and compression to the poem. Rather than being "easy" to write, haiku can be very hard indeed. Indeed, the true discipline of haiku has nothing to do with counting syllables. That's trivial and superficial, and nearly everyone I've met who says they like that discipline has been completely unaware of the much more challenging disciplines that literary haiku require. And that's entirely aside from the fact that 5-7-5 syllables in English is a misguided taget relative to the 17 mora of Japanese haiku. FYI, the word "haiku" need not be treated with a capital H, in the same way that it's not necessary to capitalize the S in "sonnet." Why do people do that? I've never understood that. Also, Robert Hass's *Essential Haiku* book of poems by Basho, Buson, and Issa (inexplicably and lazily omitting Shiki, the fourth great master of Japanese haiku) is lyrical and approachable, but not the most reliable of translations. For example, Hass repeats an error of an earlier translator of ascribing the "for me going / for you staying / two autumns" haiku to Buson, when in fact it was written by Shiki -- what does that tell you about his sources? I would also say that "writing in an instant" does not in itself necessarily produce good haiku. Basho rewrote his poems or reordered and restructured their appearance in the *Oku no hosomichi* (Narrow Road to the Interior). Rather, one CAN write in an instant, but one need not stop there. And like any art, or even a sport, it builds upon practice. The perfect serve of a Wimbledon champion is not just in an instant, but is a culmination of a lifetime of practice. Michael P.S. I've been asked offlist to share some of my haiku. You'll find some (and some senryu) online, paired with photographs, at http://www.brooksbookshaiku.com/welch/. I put this together about eight years ago. -----Original Message----- Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:45:53 -0600 From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match/HAIKU LIFE Many deep thanks to Michael Dylan Welch for his letters affirming the LIFE of American Haiku and providing so many insights and so much information. A few times before Haiku has been discussed (and dissed one might say a bit)-and so often concerning only the syllable counting as though distinguishing right foot from the left means one knows how to walk. A lot of what i know have learned from reading Japanese and American haiku is ways of awareness in the world--practicing different ways of seeing things, movements, colors and how their particualrs cab be continually framed and reframed within a very few words, not only to present juxtapostion, but in doing so to provide as Michael wrote, the data for making a leap inside the mind--opening into a whole other view of the "scenes" so to speak. Continually training the eye in finding particulars among all that is happening within an instant--the haiku a way of learning to see distinctly that which is hidden in plain sight by the too distracted superficial attention. Out of a mass of colors, forms, movements, exact notations of a particular moment in a specific time of year--emerge the particles in the ongoing flow which present paradoxes, contradcitions, things far apart suddenly brought close. A haiku is a form of documentary which "opens one's eyes"--and if one is so inclined, mind, heart, soul, physical awarenesses. The importance of the time element is to indicate not a stillness bu a cotinual process of change, in which the insatnt presented in the poem is taking part--a transitory movement from the no longer present of the moment before to the not yet present of the moment after. On the one hand the teeming chaos of the moment in its incredible profusion of details, on the other, the nothingness, unknowable--to see with clarity a continual becoming--out of chaos and nothingness, that which is. Hiaku have brought a continual daily work with seeing, hearing, moving--details within each instant--site/sight/cite--oscillations of an opening outwo/ards and a paring to the bare bones. Haiku bring not just forms of artistic or mystical "illuminations" as it were--also bring evidences cotinually of social contradictions, paradoxes all around one. To see the world from a crowded bus or within a very confined space--and find in them both a continual happening. Through barred windows to see everyday the same view yet to find moment by moment it is changing. I am just touching on a very small area of what study of Haiku can bring for writing, visual work, being alive. It's a form of disicpline one may practice at any time any where. Even in dreams it can happen. There is also the spirtual aspect of haiku as a Way. This can be found in a great many poets practising haiku as a method among spiritual disicplines. Pascal wrote: "it is not the elements which are new, but the order of their arrangement." To work with arrangements of course you have to continually discpline the unedrstanding of the elements, and i think Haiku teaches one in this, how to go about finding what the elements are at any moment. Time spent studying cracks in a wall can be an opening into the anarkeyological possibilities which are ever available. The famous text by Basho called "Learn from the Pine" is a great introduction to ways of working with Haiku as a discipline in living to find ways to see and hear and move. In this way, the making of the Haiku is like an instant between the profusion of reality and the nothingness. Through discipline "composition must occur in an instant." Robert Hass edited a great collection of Haiku and prose by Basho, Suson & Issa called The Essential Haiku--you can find "learn from the Pine" in there-- to show how hard it to write haiku--i wrote his in an instant from what seen outside the window you can see that i wil have to live a hundred years to make aven an average one but what i learn from reading others'--has helped change many ways of seeing for me and i am very thank ful to Haiku for this-- ghetto winter street dope man, bible man, crack hos-- all call the crow "thief" ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 12:04:06 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: haiku /Violi In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Best US haiku I know is Ron Padgett's: Seven syllables Eleven syllables Seven syllables gb On 8-Feb-07, at 8:47 AM, Stephen Vincent wrote: >> I don't think there can a haiku better than this one by Paul Violi, >> which I am >> proud to have published in a magazine I co-edited many years ago. I >> don't >> believe it follows a single one of your rules, nor does it follow the >> conventional syllable count, but it blows my mind: >> >> Don't look at my face. >> No change, just large bills. >> One wrong move will be your last. > > Actually, I think this one comes from a side-set genre of haiku that Al > Capone once christened (after a sweet heist by one of his boys) as a > > Noirku > > Though the French are fond of calling Paul Violi's particular piece a > > Noircoup > > The French apparently love to apply a "coup" wherever possible to both > elegant and inelegant seizures, Paul V's piece being of the elegant > variety, > Obviously. > > I hope the introduction of this particular genre/convention is > "helpful", > too. > > Stephen V > http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ >> >> >> Charlie Rossiter wrote: >> Seriously...I'm trying to be helpful >> >> I tried in an earlier message to tell you...but that didn't get >> through so >> let me try again...some of you you sound like undergraduates calling >> the >> library and essentially asking the reference librarian to do your >> research >> for you >> >> Just read a couple good books about haiku and stop guessing and second >> guessing about what haiku in English is all about. That kind of stuff >> only makes you look foolish to people who know about the subject. >> >> I hope you folks spending time writing notes about haiku are really >> interested...once you get it, you might write some memorable >> poems...haiku >> can actually be a powerful form of poetic expression...go for it >> >> if I sound impatient it's because the second-guessers (duh, I wonder >> if >> Sato made that up) are really tiresome... >> >> don't take this the wrong way....the goal is always better >> poetry...haiku >> or otherwise >> >> charlie >> > > George Cletis Bowering Slow to anger. Well, slow about everything. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 14:06:07 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Tom W. Lewis" Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match In-Reply-To: <8C919D26848EE50-1508-8EF@WEBMAIL-MA15.sysops.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable many words for little poems many words for little=20 poems are little words ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 15:03:33 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: (behalf of Susan Firer) Kent Johnson at UW-Milwaukee & Illinois Wesleyan Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Kent Johnson--"Mr. Kent" in some of his poems, like Burroughs' being "Mr. Lee" in various of his writings--will be making the following appearances this month in the guise of the "author function" known as "Kent Johnson"--at the following sites: a reading at Illinois Wesleyan University the week following on Saturday, February 25, at 7:30 PM, Hansen Student Center, 300 Beecher St., Bloomington, Illinois. and, on behalf of Susan Firer from the English Dept. at UW-Milwaukee, this announcement of next week's Milwaukee appearances: > >The first visiting writer event of the semester is coming soon. Kent >Johnson >will be here on February 15. He'll give a craft talk in Curtin 466 from 2 >to >3:30 and a reading at 7:30 in Curtin 368. > >Kent Johnson is editor, with Craig Paulenich, of Beneath a Single Moon: >Buddhism >in Contemporary American Poetry (Shambhala, 1991) and of Third Wave: the >New >Russian Poetry (U of Michigan, 1992). > >In 1980 and 1983, during the Sandinista revolution, Johnson worked in the >Nicaraguan countryside for many months teaching basic literacy and adult >education. From this experience he translated A Nation of Poets (West End >Press, 1985), the most representative translation in English from the >famous >working class Talleres de Poesia of Nicaragua. > >Kent Johnson has edited Doubled Flowering: from the Notebooks of Araki >Yasusada >(Roof, 1998), as well as Also, with My Throat, I Shall Swallow Ten Thousand >Swords: Araki Yasusada’s Letters in English (Combo Books, 2005). >In addition, Johnson has translated (with Alexandra Papaditsas) The >Miseries of >Poetry: Traductions from the Greek (Skanky Possum, 2003; rept. Cambridge >Conference of Contemporary Poetry, UK, 2005) and, with Forrest Gander, >Immanent >Visitor: Selected Poems of Jaime Saenz (University of California Press, >2002), >which was a PEN Award for Poetry in Translation selection. A second book of >Saenz’s work, The Night, is forthcoming from Princeton. Epigramititis: 118 >Living American Poets (BlazeVox Books) was published in 2006. > >Recipient of a 2004 NEA Literature Fellowship, Johnson teaches at Highland >Community College and was named the State of Illinois Teacher of the Year >for >2004 by the Illinois Community College Trustees Association. > >About the Yasusada project, Ron Silliman says, "The 'scandal' of these >poems >lies not in the problematics of authorship, identity, persona, race or >history. >Rather, these are wonderful works of writing that also invoke all of these >other >issues, never relying on them to prop up a text." Arthur Vogelsang, editor >of >American Poetry Review, says, "This is essentially a criminal act," and >Josea >Hirata of Princeton's East Asian Studies program, says, "Knowing its >fictitious >nature, with a slight sense of disgust, I find Yasusada's poetry evil, and >eerily beautiful." > _________________________________________________________________ Talk now to your Hotmail contacts with Windows Live Messenger. http://get.live.com/messenger/overview ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 15:17:38 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: (behalf of Susan Firer) Kent Johnson at UW-Milwaukee & Illinois Wesleyan In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If I wanna drive across the state to see this how can I be sure it will actually be Kent Johnson who appears at this thing? You can never be too careful. ~mIEKAL On Feb 8, 2007, at 3:03 PM, David-Baptiste Chirot wrote: > Kent Johnson--"Mr. Kent" in some of his poems, like Burroughs' > being "Mr. Lee" in various of his writings--will be making the > following appearances this month in the guise of the "author > function" known as "Kent Johnson"--at the following sites: > > a reading at Illinois Wesleyan University the week following on > Saturday, February 25, at 7:30 PM, Hansen Student Center, 300 > Beecher St., Bloomington, Illinois. > > > and, on behalf of Susan Firer from the English Dept. at UW- > Milwaukee, this announcement of next week's Milwaukee appearances: ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 13:34:49 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: (behalf of Susan Firer) Kent Johnson at UW-Milwaukee & Illinois Wesleyan In-Reply-To: <30052C49-6742-40B1-AE80-6C94DCEEA4CE@mwt.net> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit If he's smoking on the porch, you got him. gb On 8-Feb-07, at 1:17 PM, mIEKAL aND wrote: > If I wanna drive across the state to see this how can I be sure it > will actually be Kent Johnson who appears at this thing? > > You can never be too careful. > > ~mIEKAL > > > On Feb 8, 2007, at 3:03 PM, David-Baptiste Chirot wrote: > >> Kent Johnson--"Mr. Kent" in some of his poems, like Burroughs' being >> "Mr. Lee" in various of his writings--will be making the following >> appearances this month in the guise of the "author function" known as >> "Kent Johnson"--at the following sites: >> >> a reading at Illinois Wesleyan University the week following on >> Saturday, February 25, at 7:30 PM, Hansen Student Center, 300 Beecher >> St., Bloomington, Illinois. >> >> >> and, on behalf of Susan Firer from the English Dept. at UW-Milwaukee, >> this announcement of next week's Milwaukee appearances: > > Geo. Bowering, DLit A devotee of Veronica Lake ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 22:52:32 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anny Ballardini Subject: Re: (behalf of Susan Firer) Kent Johnson at UW-Milwaukee & Illinois Wesleyan In-Reply-To: <30052C49-6742-40B1-AE80-6C94DCEEA4CE@mwt.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline never ever, indeed, :-) On 2/8/07, mIEKAL aND wrote: > > If I wanna drive across the state to see this how can I be sure it > will actually be Kent Johnson who appears at this thing? > > You can never be too careful. > > ~mIEKAL > > > On Feb 8, 2007, at 3:03 PM, David-Baptiste Chirot wrote: > > > Kent Johnson--"Mr. Kent" in some of his poems, like Burroughs' > > being "Mr. Lee" in various of his writings--will be making the > > following appearances this month in the guise of the "author > > function" known as "Kent Johnson"--at the following sites: > > > > a reading at Illinois Wesleyan University the week following on > > Saturday, February 25, at 7:30 PM, Hansen Student Center, 300 > > Beecher St., Bloomington, Illinois. > > > > > > and, on behalf of Susan Firer from the English Dept. at UW- > > Milwaukee, this announcement of next week's Milwaukee appearances: > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 17:20:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: heidi arnold Subject: Bone Pagoda, by Susan Tichy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline this is a propos of nothing, except my reading today -- thot i'd pass it along -- hope there are no mistakes in the retyping one-handed Bridge Fight by Susan Tichy Bow of our boat In the weedy scene Non-literate Letter Woman in the bushes In the painting In the bushes Helicopter Down in the river Our boat Down in the river Figures of disputation, 'we Fought for the bridge for five weeks' Everything 'til now was water, Pre- * Painting of the battle On the site of the battle Flank attack by the language god Bituminous bastard loves an allegory Night breeze kicks up between your lines Within Illumination flare lights what it can Beyond bright blackness Mr. Chien with his hand on the rudder Mr. Thuong with his thumb shot off In stuttering etcetera 'Maynard Smith drowned A kid whose name I can't remember Was killed by a recoilless Another guy was killed by a recoilless And then we took Ed's boat to Cua Viet Where it hit a mine' 'When there's trouble and we're beset' Something happening Something just going to happen Two monks, one in saffron One in tweed * -- www.heidiarnold.org http://peaceraptor.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 17:33:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetry Project Subject: Events at the Poetry Project 2/9 - 2/14 In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Dears, Please join us. Also, workshops begin next week. It is not too late to enroll! Scroll down for details. Love, The Poetry Project Friday, February 9, 10:30 pm Open 24 Hours An evening celebrating the work published by Open 24 Hours Press, edited by Greg Fuchs and John Coletti. Readers to include Corina Copp, Arlo Quint, Dustin Williamson, Mariana Ruiz-Firmat and Erica Kaufman. Plus a collaborative happening with visual artist Jonathan Allen, frequent Open 24 Hours cover designer. Open 24 Hours is based in New York City and fashions itself after the mimeo style of 1960's poetry publishing efforts. This even= t may include the construction and utilization of a martini bar. Monday, February 12, 8:00 pm Meet the Press: An Evening With Factory School Design Team The performative culmination of a series of public statements about small press poetry, anarchism and education, Bill Marsh and Joel Kuszai will describe the progress of Factory School learning and production collective in the context of their 2006 move to New York City. Part lecture-theatrics, part analytic-hijinks, their multimedia performance will demonstrate the range of their work at Factory School, from research and design to publishing and resource sharing. Bill Marsh works at the Institute of Writing Studies on the Queens campus of St. John's University and is founding member of Factory School. From April 2005 to January 2007 he curated the Heretical Texts series. Joel Kuszai has been involved in critical thinking since 2003. He resides in Queens, where he teaches cultural rhetoric at Queensborough Community College. Wednesday, February 14, 8:00 pm Eugene Ostashevsky & Stephen Rodefer Eugene Ostashevsky's books of poetry include Iterature and Infinite Recurso= r Or The Bride of DJ Spinoza, both available through Ugly Duckling Presse. He translates Russian absurdist literature of the 1930s, and is the editor of OBERIU: An Anthology of Russian Absurdism, published by Northwestern University Press. In honor of Valentine's Day, Eugene will strive to bring tears to the eyes of both the loved and the unloved. The American writer an= d Parisian resident Stephen Rodefer is the author of the prize-winning Four Lectures, Villon by Jean Calais, Emergency Measures, Passing Duration, Mon Canard and Left Under a Cloud, among many other titles. He is presently working on some Baudelaire translations called Baudelaire OH: Les Fleurs du Val. He has been called the last beatnik, the first postmodern modernist, the greatest living American poet, and the oldest living teenager. He has none of it. Spring Workshops at the Poetry Project The Poetry School Of Poetry =AD Douglas Rothschild Tuesdays at 7 Pm: 10 Sessions Begin February 13th Writing poetry is difficult; writing good poetry, more difficult still. In this workshop, we will focus on exactly what we think is good in a poem & determine how our senses of aesthetics inform our responses to this question. Working within our own aesthetic notions we will then begin to refine our writing, & help each other to write the best poems that we can. The workshop will conduct a number of actual experiments with writing that will allow us to step outside the world of id, which wants to keep all the beautiful words, & into the artistic self, which understands which pieces fit & which belong elsewhere. We will also engage the basic Poetry School of Poetry premise that the poet=B9s first job is to learn how to edit. Dgls N. Rthschld has been behind the foods table at the New Years Reading more times than it is worth mentioning. He has also written a number of chapbooks, the most ground breaking entitled The Minor Arcane. He has taught what seem to be innumerable college writing classes, and is currently teaching at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice, a CUNY school.=20 The Visible Unseen: Writing Outside Borders =AD Akilah Oliver Thursdays at 7 pm: 10 Sessions Begin February 15th Are poetry and prose virtual realities, simulations of something other, or the real thing? Where does the =B3I=B2 live? How many moments exist in the moment of the line? What borders of form are crucial for us to hang on to = & which boundaries are collapsible? In this workshop, we will explore the connections and tensions between the visible and the unseen world/s, not a= s dualities or binaries, but as complementary sites of composition. Through engagement with text (written and visual), public spaces, the imagination, dreams and Eros, participants are invited to think of writing as that which re-imagines the known and the unknown. Though this is a text based workshop= , poets, prose writers, and artists from all disciplines are welcome. Reading= s include: Giorgio Agamben, Laura Mullen, Whitman, Anne Waldman, Derrida, & Ben Okri. Akilah Oliver is the author of the she said dialogues: flesh memory, An Arriving Guard of Angels, Thusly Coming to Greet, a(A)gust, & The Putterer=B9s Notebook. She is faculty at the Jack Kerouac School of Disembodied Poetics Summer Writing Program at Naropa University. Impurity Rocks! A Poetry Lab & Workshop =AD Joanna Fuhrman Fridays at 7 pm: 10 Sessions Begin February 16th The class will focus on =B3impure=B2 poetry, poetry that employs a mixture of tones and styles. Special emphasis will be placed on works that combine narrative and humor with linguistic and imagistic disjunction. In-class exercises and take-home assignments will touch on issues of scale, space, sound, genre and wordplay. Time will also be devoted to reading published poems as well as in-depth discussions and critiques of student work. Joann= a Fuhrman is the author of three collections of poetry, Freud in Brooklyn, Ugh Ugh Ocean and Moraine, all published by Hanging Loose Press. She has taught poetry writing at The University of Washington, The Cooper Union Saturday Outreach program and in the New York City Public Schools. Poetry For The Page, Stage, And Computer Screen =AD Thomas Savage Saturdays At 12 pm: 10 Sessions Begin February 17th This course is a writing workshop where students' writing is the main focus. Also used as inspiration and writing prompts will be samples of wor= k by writers from The Beats, Black Mountain poets, The New York School (all generations), Language Poetry, Poets Theater, Pablo Neruda, and works being published today online, among other sources. Practices will include readin= g as well as writing assignments and, in a great Poetry Project tradition, in-class writing. Thomas Savage has written eight published books of poems including most recently Bamiyan Poems, Brain Surgery Poems and Political Conditions/Physical States. His poems have appeared in many print and online venues including The New York Times, Hanging Loose, Rattapallax, Big Bridge, Black Box, and regularly on the Wryting-L website. He has taught poetry workshops at The Poetry Project and Tribes Gallery. * The workshop fee is $350, which includes a one year Sustaining Poetry Project membership and tuition for any and all spring and fall classes. Reservations are required due to limited class space, and payment must be received in advance. Caps on class sizes, if in effect, will be determined by workshop leaders. Please send payment and reservations to: The Poetry Project, St. Mark's Church Attn: Workshops 131 East 10th St. NYC, NY 10003 For more information, or to pay by credit card, please call (212) 674-0910, or email: info@poetryproject.com. http://www.poetryproject.com/workshops.php Become a Poetry Project Member! http://poetryproject.com/membership.php Winter Calendar: http://www.poetryproject.com/calendar.php The Poetry Project is located at St. Mark's Church-in-the-Bowery 131 East 10th Street at Second Avenue New York City 10003 Trains: 6, F, N, R, and L. info@poetryproject.com www.poetryproject.com Admission is $8, $7 for students/seniors and $5 for members (though now those who take out a membership at $85 or higher will get in FREE to all regular readings). We are wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. For more info call 212-674-0910. If you=B9d like to be unsubscribed from this mailing list, please drop a line at info@poetryproject.com. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 16:52:55 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: RIP Anna Nicole - The end of an era MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Folks- An era has ended. Anna Nicole Smith died today in a hotel room in Hollywood, Florida. She was 39 years old. I am hopeful that works of art, music, literature, etc. are forthcoming to commemorate her life and mourn her tragic death. A special issue of Painted Bride Quarterly, perhaps. Oh, maybe I sound ironic, but I really am feeling this one. Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 18:05:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Adam Morey Subject: Jed Rasula's Poetics of Embodiment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello all, I am looking for the book Poetics of Embodiment: A Theory of Exceptions by Jed Rasula and it does not come up even in a google search. Perhaps I have the title wrong. It was reccomended to me by a friend. If anyone can help me out, let me know. I checked ABE and SPD, nothing came up there as well. Thanks, Adam ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 15:28:30 -0800 Reply-To: editor@pavementsaw.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Subject: Re: deconstruction and poetry Comments: To: Halvard Johnson In-Reply-To: <1DDDC997-2B70-4CA0-8553-93D9AC3D5207@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit No, Finnegan's Wake is a strophe. An apostrophe is a diacritical mark, Finnegans Wake has critical marks. how's that for the Haiku discussion? No, Finnegans Wake IS an apostrophe. Hal Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus, OH 43206 http://pavementsaw.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 18:45:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barrett Watten Subject: Watten lecture in Minneapolis 2/9 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable University of Minnesota lecture "On the Advantages and Disadvantages of Negativity for Life" 3:00=964:30 PM, 9 February 2007, Department of English 207A Lind Hall, UM's East Bank, University of Minnesota ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 15:47:27 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: "Growing Up Girl" Chicago reading MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit hey poetry friends....check out this new anthology of women's writing edited by michelle sewell. it's a terrific example of a community-based project being fully supported by an independent press. onwards, jennifer karmin ---------------------------- A reading for "Growing Up Girl: An Anthology of Voices from Marginalized Spaces" Featuring editor Michelle Sewell and Chicago contributors: Wendy Altschuler Jennifer Karmin Janet Vega Latiffany Wright Jewel Sophia Younge 7:30pm Friday, February 16 Women and Children First Books 5233 N. Clark Street -- Chicago, IL http://www.womenandchildrenfirst.com Free Published by GirlChild Press, this eclectic collection of poems, essays, and short stories documents the transition from girl to woman as told by the girls and women who know the journey best. The multicultural anthology examines issues such as identity, domestic violence, acceptance, motherhood, beauty, and sexuality. It can be bought from independent bookstores like Women and Children First or purchased through http://www.girlchildpress.com. WENDY ALTSCHULER graduated with high honors from DePaul University with a degree in Women’s and Gender Studies and Anthropology. She is the first person in her family to graduate from college. JENNIFER KARMIN is a poet, artist, and educator who has experimented with language throughout the U.S. and Japan. She is a founding member of the public art group Anti Gravity Surprise and co-curator of the Red Rover reading series. Jennifer works as a Poet-in-Residence for the Chicago Public Schools and teaches creative writing to immigrants at Truman College. MICHELLE SEWELL is an award-winning poet and screenwriter whose writing has appeared on NPR and Black Entertainment Television. Throughout her work as a poet and a social worker, Sewell has maintained that there must be a place for women and girls to develop and express their truest selves. JANET VEGA is 28 years old, married, and mother to two beautiful boys. She is currently attending Morton College for an Associates in Office Management Technology. LATTIFANY WRIGHT is 24 years old and resides in Chicago with her daughter. She is a student in the Masters of Fine Arts program at Chicago State University and plans to write full time after completing her degree. JEWEL SOPHIA YOUNGE has used several pen names in her career. She has published a short story, “Roots Thing Dirty,” a short play, and poems in magazines ranging from English Journal to Rolling Out. New York artist Uraline Hager featured Younge’s work in New York and Havana exhibits. Younge also worked on Coquie Hughe’s most recent film “Did I Just Look at Her.” Younge is a St. Louis playwright who teaches, writes, and resides in Chicago. ____________________________________________________________________________________ The fish are biting. Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/sponsoredsearch_v2.php ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 16:32:57 -0800 Reply-To: adeniro@rocketmail.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan DeNiro Subject: Invitation: Speculative Poetry mailing list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, I wanted to invite people to swing by a (relatively) new mailing list that I've set up that hopes to explore the intersections between science, science fiction, and poetry. It casts a fairly wide net, but I hope that some will find it of interest. The People's League of Speculative Poetry http://groups.google.com/group/speculativepoetry/ An open and open-ended community whose poetic work or interests involve, but is not necessarily limited to: science fiction, science, cybernetics, metaphysics, futurism, simulacra, junk sci-fi culture, hyper-globalism, and killer robots. Discussions and postings of poetry and poetics welcome. Best wishes, Alan DeNiro ____________________________________________________________________________________ 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 19:52:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: RIP Anna Nicole - The end of an era In-Reply-To: <002e01c74bd3$df80a080$220110ac@AARONLAPTOP> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed I've followed her career fairly closely, watched the 'reality show,' and was fascinated; she resisted easy summaries, but there was always a violent edge to things around her that felt exhausted. She died ten years older than Anita Berber and six than Christ. - Alan On Thu, 8 Feb 2007, Aaron Belz wrote: > Folks- > An era has ended. Anna Nicole Smith died today in a hotel room in > Hollywood, Florida. She was 39 years old. I am hopeful that works of art, > music, literature, etc. are forthcoming to commemorate her life and mourn > her tragic death. A special issue of Painted Bride Quarterly, perhaps. > > Oh, maybe I sound ironic, but I really am feeling this one. > > Aaron > > ======================================================================= Work on YouTube, blog at http://nikuko.blogspot.com . Tel 718-813-3285. Webpage directory http://www.asondheim.org . Email: sondheim@panix.com. http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim for theory; also check WVU Zwiki, Google for recent. Write for info on books, cds, performance, dvds, etc. ============================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 17:21:54 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: HAIKU LIFE In-Reply-To: <8C919D26848EE50-1508-8EF@WEBMAIL-MA15.sysops.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MDW I'm enjoying what you say about haiku-- but one question about what you say below? why such shorthand staples of early 20th c.---eliot's objective correlative? or no ideas but in things? that seems to distort/reduce too the haiku suggestiveness? for example, the shiki one you quote below... or, what for you is it to "control objectivity and subjectivity" On Feb 8, 2007, at 11:56 AM, Michael Dylan Welch wrote: > Thanks for your message below, David-Baptiste. I like what you say > about how haiku trains the eye. It's like a photographer who > "frames" images in his or her mind, even if without a camera. > Before I was married, it was informative to take a date to the > beach, because I found it revealing of the person to see if they'd > notice the tiniest shells or driftwood, and have curiosity for the > natural world, or if they limited their conversation to shopping or > work or whatever, without much interaction with the environment. > Call it, perhaps, a "haiku mind," whether one writes haiku or not > -- or even any poetry at all. It's a matter of being present and > aware, and it certainly helps one write haiku, which is a poetry of > the five senses, with a sensitivity to the seasons and thus to > nature. It can also be a way of life, a part of one's cosmology. > > For what it's worth, I don't think of the haiku I write as > "American haiku." It's haiku. > > Haiku deserves a lot of dissing. That's because there's a boat-load > of crap out there -- the pseudohaiku, of course, but also the > trivial stuff that most people write and think is haiku (though I > can hardly blame them, given how haiku is nearly uniformly > mistaught in schools). And even those who excel at haiku play a > percentage game (as does any poet). I think it was Basho who said > one is a master if you write just ten excellent haiku in a lifetime > (we have a record, I believe, of something like 1,500 of Basho's > haiku; Issa is known to have written 20,000, and most of them are > weak or just average). But I think haiku has earned an extra amount > of dissing because is strikes so many people as easy, and people > dash 'em off, or pervert them as literature by writing flippantly. > In his excellent book, *Empire of Signs*, Roland Barthes says > "haiku has this rather fantasmagorical property: that we always > suppose we ourselves can write such things easily." > > For anyone who wants to write seriously *about* haiku, or to study > it, I am pretty sure that they will see a difference between the > latest pseudo-haiku book like *Haikus for Jews* or *Honku* (about > road rage, etc.) and serious literary haiku written in English. > However, there's a middle ground between the two that too many > people think of as haiku, yet is still far wide of the mark, as any > kind of literature. That stuff deserves dissing, too. What is odd > is that some people diss the literary achievements because they are > naive enough to say that, well, it's not 5-7-5. People cling so > hard to that notion, for reasons that I can't fathom. I can only > imagine that it's because they learned this incorrect rule (for > haiku in English) at an impressionable age, when their teachers > could do no wrong, and thus they swallowed it hook, line, and sinker. > > For me, haiku makes perfect use of what Eliot called the objective > correlative. Haiku dwells on things (nouns) that carry meaning and > emotion ("no ideas but in things"). Haiku (even literary haiku) can > be many things to different people, but to me it has a spiritual > aspect, a sort of approach to infinity (by approaching the > narrowest of image-moments). By the way, this spirituality that I > find in haiku has little to do with Zen (another misperception of > haiku, which the Japanese are puzzled at regarding the American > understanding of haiku -- thanks to folks like Alan Watts, R. H. > Blyth, Jack Kerouac and other Beats, who promoted haiku from that > perspective). > > I teach a class on using haiku techniques to improve your longer > poetry. The point of view, the awareness, that David-Baptiste > mentioned in his message is a big part of that, but so are the > ability to control objectivity and subjectivity, to create > implication through juxtaposition (and thus create intuitive, > emotional, or even intellectual effects), and a reliance on seasons > as archetypes to add weight and compression to the poem. Rather > than being "easy" to write, haiku can be very hard indeed. > > Indeed, the true discipline of haiku has nothing to do with > counting syllables. That's trivial and superficial, and nearly > everyone I've met who says they like that discipline has been > completely unaware of the much more challenging disciplines that > literary haiku require. And that's entirely aside from the fact > that 5-7-5 syllables in English is a misguided taget relative to > the 17 mora of Japanese haiku. > > FYI, the word "haiku" need not be treated with a capital H, in the > same way that it's not necessary to capitalize the S in "sonnet." > Why do people do that? I've never understood that. > > Also, Robert Hass's *Essential Haiku* book of poems by Basho, > Buson, and Issa (inexplicably and lazily omitting Shiki, the fourth > great master of Japanese haiku) is lyrical and approachable, but > not the most reliable of translations. For example, Hass repeats an > error of an earlier translator of ascribing the "for me going / for > you staying / two autumns" haiku to Buson, when in fact it was > written by Shiki -- what does that tell you about his sources? > > I would also say that "writing in an instant" does not in itself > necessarily produce good haiku. Basho rewrote his poems or > reordered and restructured their appearance in the *Oku no > hosomichi* (Narrow Road to the Interior). Rather, one CAN write in > an instant, but one need not stop there. And like any art, or even > a sport, it builds upon practice. The perfect serve of a Wimbledon > champion is not just in an instant, but is a culmination of a > lifetime of practice. > > Michael > > P.S. I've been asked offlist to share some of my haiku. You'll find > some (and some senryu) online, paired with photographs, at http:// > www.brooksbookshaiku.com/welch/. I put this together about eight > years ago. > > > -----Original Message----- > > Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:45:53 -0600 > From: David-Baptiste Chirot > Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match/HAIKU LIFE > > Many deep thanks to Michael Dylan Welch for his letters affirming > the LIFE > of American Haiku and providing so many insights and so much > information. > A few times before Haiku has been discussed (and dissed one > might say a > bit)-and so often concerning only the syllable counting as though > distinguishing right foot from the left means one knows how to > walk. A lot > of what i know have learned from reading Japanese and American > haiku is ways > of awareness in the world--practicing different ways of seeing things, > movements, colors and how their particualrs cab be continually > framed and > reframed within a very few words, not only to present juxtapostion, > but in > doing so to provide as Michael wrote, the data for making a leap > inside the > mind--opening into a whole other view of the "scenes" so to speak. > Continually training the eye in finding particulars among all that is > happening within an instant--the haiku a way of learning to see > distinctly > that which is hidden in plain sight by the too distracted superficial > attention. Out of a mass of colors, forms, movements, exact > notations of a > particular moment in a specific time of year--emerge the particles > in the > ongoing flow which present paradoxes, contradcitions, things far apart > suddenly brought close. A haiku is a form of documentary which > "opens one's > eyes"--and if one is so inclined, mind, heart, soul, physical > awarenesses. > The importance of the time element is to indicate not a stillness bu a > cotinual process of change, in which the insatnt presented in the > poem is > taking part--a transitory movement from the no longer present of > the moment > before to the not yet present of the moment after. On the one hand > the > teeming chaos of the moment in its incredible profusion of details, > on the > other, the nothingness, unknowable--to see with clarity a continual > becoming--out of chaos and nothingness, that which is. > Hiaku have brought a continual daily work with seeing, hearing, > moving--details within each instant--site/sight/cite--oscillations > of an > opening outwo/ards and a paring to the bare bones. > Haiku bring not just forms of artistic or mystical > "illuminations" as > it were--also bring evidences cotinually of social contradictions, > paradoxes > all around one. To see the world from a crowded bus or within a very > confined space--and find in them both a continual happening. > Through barred > windows to see everyday the same view yet to find moment by moment > it is > changing. > I am just touching on a very small area of what study of Haiku > can > bring for writing, visual work, being alive. It's a form of > disicpline one > may practice at any time any where. Even in dreams it can happen. > There is also the spirtual aspect of haiku as a Way. This can > be found > in a great many poets practising haiku as a method among spiritual > disicplines. > Pascal wrote: "it is not the elements which are new, but the > order of > their arrangement." To work with arrangements of course you have to > continually discpline the unedrstanding of the elements, and i > think Haiku > teaches one in this, how to go about finding what the elements are > at any > moment. Time spent studying cracks in a wall can be an opening > into the > anarkeyological possibilities which are ever available. > The famous text by Basho called "Learn from the Pine" is a > great > introduction to ways of working with Haiku as a discipline in > living to find > ways to see and hear and move. In this way, the making of the Haiku > is like > an instant between the profusion of reality and the nothingness. > Through > discipline "composition must occur in an instant." > Robert Hass edited a great collection of Haiku and prose by Basho, > Suson & > Issa called The Essential Haiku--you can find "learn from the Pine" in > there-- > to show how hard it to write haiku--i wrote his in an instant from > what seen > outside the window > you can see that i wil have to live a hundred years to make aven an > average > one > but what i learn from reading others'--has helped change many ways > of seeing > for me and i am very thank ful to Haiku for this-- > > ghetto winter street > dope man, bible man, crack hos-- > all call the crow "thief" > ______________________________________________________________________ > __ > Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and > security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from > across the web, free AOL Mail and more. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 20:28:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Zimmerman Subject: Re: haiku /Violi Comments: cc: Daniel Zimmerman MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit flag haiku one two three four five six seven eight nine ten e- leven twelve thirteen ~ Dan Zimmerman ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Bowering" To: Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 3:04 PM Subject: Re: haiku /Violi > Best US haiku I know is Ron Padgett's: > > > > Seven syllables > Eleven syllables > Seven syllables > > > > > > > > > gb > > > > > > On 8-Feb-07, at 8:47 AM, Stephen Vincent wrote: > >>> I don't think there can a haiku better than this one by Paul Violi, >>> which I am >>> proud to have published in a magazine I co-edited many years ago. I >>> don't >>> believe it follows a single one of your rules, nor does it follow the >>> conventional syllable count, but it blows my mind: >>> >>> Don't look at my face. >>> No change, just large bills. >>> One wrong move will be your last. >> >> Actually, I think this one comes from a side-set genre of haiku that Al >> Capone once christened (after a sweet heist by one of his boys) as a >> >> Noirku >> >> Though the French are fond of calling Paul Violi's particular piece a >> >> Noircoup >> >> The French apparently love to apply a "coup" wherever possible to both >> elegant and inelegant seizures, Paul V's piece being of the elegant >> variety, >> Obviously. >> >> I hope the introduction of this particular genre/convention is >> "helpful", >> too. >> >> Stephen V >> http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ >>> >>> >>> Charlie Rossiter wrote: >>> Seriously...I'm trying to be helpful >>> >>> I tried in an earlier message to tell you...but that didn't get >>> through so >>> let me try again...some of you you sound like undergraduates calling >>> the >>> library and essentially asking the reference librarian to do your >>> research >>> for you >>> >>> Just read a couple good books about haiku and stop guessing and second >>> guessing about what haiku in English is all about. That kind of stuff >>> only makes you look foolish to people who know about the subject. >>> >>> I hope you folks spending time writing notes about haiku are really >>> interested...once you get it, you might write some memorable >>> poems...haiku >>> can actually be a powerful form of poetic expression...go for it >>> >>> if I sound impatient it's because the second-guessers (duh, I wonder >>> if >>> Sato made that up) are really tiresome... >>> >>> don't take this the wrong way....the goal is always better >>> poetry...haiku >>> or otherwise >>> >>> charlie >>> >> >> > George Cletis Bowering > Slow to anger. Well, slow about everything. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 18:14:40 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Fwd: A New BathHouse! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A creditable online journal. Lots of integrity. Lots of good work. Trying to do things, if I can speak for them, and I've not asked for permission - right! AJ --- Michael Alber wrote: > To: malber1@emich.edu, > Jeffrey Scott Parker , > Michael Alber , > Julie Alber , > CaptainVenture@webtv.net, > justin.katko@gmail.com, > ashvandoorn@gmail.com, > Teitelbaum1@Aol.com, > dharmadweller@cox.net, > Dolly121@msn.com, > ddetrich@sonic.net, > dmci24@aol.com, > jtrombatore@fbssvcs.com, > francisraven@gmail.com, > happyepsilon@gmail.com, > dawn_kelley@yahoo.com, > notfrog@gmail.com, > newpages@newpages.com, > kavcarter@gmail.com, > g@garlingtoncg.com, > emi3wee@hotmail.com, > bfredericks@ozzienet.net, > rlebron@emich.edu, > r.farr@worldnet.att.net, > elengebreab@comcast.net, > storagebag001@yahoo.com, > jhav@charter.net, > jorgensen_a@yahoo.com, > lailassi@yahoo.com, > aaron@hobartpulp.com, > richkostelanetz@aol.com > From: Michael Alber > Subject: A New BathHouse! > Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 11:22:50 -0500 > > Hi all, > > I wanted to let you all know that the new BathHouse > is up and ready > for inspection. This issue represents a kind of > departure for > BathHouse, as the major component is a fascinating > look at Russian > Net art by an important cultural critic from St. > Petersburg, Russia. > We've also got a couple of other pieces, all worth > checking out. > > If you have pieces with us, please don't despair. > You should have > your answers by February. > > Enjoy! > > Mike Alber > > Editor > BathHouse > www.emich.edu/studentorgs/bhouse > --- ____________________________________________________________________________________ TV dinner still cooling? Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV. http://tv.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 18:24:50 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: GEORGE BOWERING In-Reply-To: <760eb9905ee0aef0a918cd53e8cb763c@sfu.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Don't you sometimes get the feeling that he's kinda like a labrador - who's been chewing on a bone for far too long a time, just for the fun of it! His tail waggin' and all ears! AJ --- George Bowering wrote: > If he's smoking on the porch, > you got him. > > gb > > > On 8-Feb-07, at 1:17 PM, mIEKAL aND wrote: > > > If I wanna drive across the state to see this how > can I be sure it > > will actually be Kent Johnson who appears at this > thing? > > > > You can never be too careful. > > > > ~mIEKAL > > > > > > On Feb 8, 2007, at 3:03 PM, David-Baptiste Chirot > wrote: > > > >> Kent Johnson--"Mr. Kent" in some of his poems, > like Burroughs' being > >> "Mr. Lee" in various of his writings--will be > making the following > >> appearances this month in the guise of the > "author function" known as > >> "Kent Johnson"--at the following sites: > >> > >> a reading at Illinois Wesleyan University the > week following on > >> Saturday, February 25, at 7:30 PM, Hansen Student > Center, 300 Beecher > >> St., Bloomington, Illinois. > >> > >> > >> and, on behalf of Susan Firer from the English > Dept. at UW-Milwaukee, > >> this announcement of next week's Milwaukee > appearances: > > > > > Geo. Bowering, DLit > A devotee of Veronica Lake > --- ____________________________________________________________________________________ 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 21:56:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eric Subject: Re: haiku /Violi In-Reply-To: <003d01c74be9$ae747780$36e1e118@ENITHARMON> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Or for the conventionally minded (in loud clothes): Golf Haiku Robin watches drive, waits until I leave the tee, probes divot for worm. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 20:47:42 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match In-Reply-To: <458792.22449.qm@web86004.mail.ird.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit but if we did that, then folks wouldn't be able to be snobby about authenticity. because we all know that authenticity is what's really important. and in order for anything to be authentic, it must first be esoteric. i think what should be done is that all the books about haiku, in particular lee gurga's that keeps getting recommended, ought to be entrusted to secret societies and all publicly available copies should be burnt. and then everyone who thinks it's important that a haiku be "real" can join the secret societies, and the rest of us can get on with writing short poems. i'll even promise to never call a short poem of mine a haiku so long as the haiku-snobs will promise to point out that it isn't really a haiku. then we can all be at peace with one another in a sort of zen state of mutually acknowledged dumbness. Barry Schwabsky wrote: > Jeez. Can't we just decide that all contemporary haikus are "fake" and leave it at that? > > Because to my mind that would be at least giving them the benefit of the doubt, since it is extremely unlikely that a "real" sonnet, a "real" dramatic monologue, a "real" epic, a "real" ode, or likewise a "real" haiku could also be a good poem. Only starting from the assumption that using any of this forms or genres is absurd, practically kitsch, is one likely to get anywhere with them. > > There are societies of watercolor painters out there, according to whose members, probably, the works of any important contemporary artist who might produce a watercolor that you'd in the drawing dept. of MoMA or the Whitney are just obtuse efforts that show no sense of the rules of watercolor painting. But really, one should understand that, unlike hobbyists, real artists have only the most contingent interest in following any rules they have not set for themselves. > > "Tom W. Lewis" wrote: > I first became aware of the haiku form via an interview with Laurie > Anderson in the early 80s... she claimed to have written "fake haikus" > for her song Kokoku (the interview is archived here: > http://www.archive.org/details/LaurieAndersonOTG) > > at least she didn't claim they were "real" haikus -- does anyone > recognize the Japanese text she quotes in the lyrics below? > > Kokoku > > I come very briefly to this place. > I watch it move. I watch it shake. > > Kumowaku yamano. Watashino sakebi. > Watashino koewo. Ushano kokoku. > Watashiwa sokoni. Watashiwa asobu. > > Mountain with clouds. A cry. My voice. > Home of the brave. I'm here now. And lost. > They say the dead will rise again. And here they come now. > Strange animals out of the Ice Age. And they stare at you. > Dumbfounded. Like big mistakes. And we say: Keep cool. > Maybe if we pretend this never happened, they'll all just go away. > > Watashiwa sokoni. Watashiwa asobu. > Mewotoji. Mewotoji. Kikunowa kotori. > Watashino sakebi. Watashino koewo. > > ... > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] > On Behalf Of Michael Dylan Welch > Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 2:08 > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match > > > Sure, one can use any formal restraint as a poetic game, as a challenge > of > sorts. But as challenges go, in haiku, the syllabic challenge (whatever > pattern > you might choose) is mighty superficial. Indeed, in my years of > teaching > haiku, I've seen that it's the easiest thing in the world for students > of nearly > all grade levels to count their pretty little syllables. Why brag about > > pulling on your underwear all by yourself when your hair is on fire? > It's a > trivial "discipline." And these same haiku, while hitting that trivial > target -- > again, an incorrect target in English -- are widely missing the more > important > targets. And most often, these proud 5-7-5ers are completely oblivious > to > those other targets -- ones that are actually more important. Why > bother with > arbirary constraints for haiku when there are far more serious, > literary, > challenging, and effective constraints that you miss in the process of > focusing > on 5-7-5?!? > > It can be fun to write cinquains or iambic pentameter, or the recent > "Fib" > form (counting syllables in subsequent lines to match the Fibonacci > sequence). > But when it comes to haiku, writing 5-7-5 syllables in English isn't > the > same as following the prescribed syllables of cinquains or pentameter or > Fibs. > That's because following 5-7-5 assumes a "correctness" for that pattern > in > English, which isn't accurate when it's really a borrowed form. Yes, > sonnets are > borrowed from Italian to English, but at least that's the same alphabet, > so > it's not fraught with the problems of translating from Japanese to > English. > It's folly to translate the number (5-7-5) without thinking more deeply > about > what is being counted. Yet that is precisely what has happened that > lead to > the false conception of haiku being 5-7-5 syllables in English. Quite > simply, > when we apply that pattern to English syllables, we miss the boat. It's > > simplistic and naive. > > A person can do whatever they like and call it haiku (Lord knows that's > > happened plenty enough). If you're having fun, knock yourself out. But > if you're > writing 5-7-5 haiku, it's best to be aware of how you're writing a poem > that's > markedly longer than what is expressed in a Japanese haiku (not all of > which > are 5-7-5, by the way). It's best to be aware that you're writing in a > pattern that, for good reason, pretty much ALL of the leading haiku > poets writing > in English do not follow. It's best to be aware that writing 5-7-5 > frequently > creates artificial syntax and awkward line breaks purely for an > unnecessary > constraint while more important strategies (also constraints) are > completely > missed. Indeed, most 5-7-5 haiku writers tend to be completely unaware > of the > other strategies necessary for traditional haiku, though perhaps that's > a > separate problem, although it's frequently caused by a belief that > 5-7-5 is all > there is to it. In any event, if one aims at seasonality and a two-part > > juxtapositional structure, and employs objective sensory imagery, you > can let > the rest of form take care of itself (organically). But of course, > there's more > to it than that -- writing in the present tense, no titles, no rhyme, > seldom > any similes or metaphors, employing fragments rather than full > sentences, > employing allusion, and more. And perhaps the most important aspect of > all -- > implication. It's very hard to do well, to hint at something that the > reader > can figure out on his own, making a leap of understanding that's made > possible > because of your restraint as a poet, because you deliberately left > something > out. As I like to emphasize in haiku workshops, don't write about your > emotion, write about what caused your emotion. Then, if you do it > right, the reader > can feel what you felt without your having to say so. But of course all > of > this is missed by those who think haiku is only a 5-7-5 > syllable-counting > poetry trick. Some "challenge." > > As I say in the title of one of my haiku lectures: "Haiku: It's Bigger > Than > You Think." Yet of course, it's also smaller than most English speakers > think, > too. > > Michael > > P.S. Nearly every serious haiku poet I know has had a progression in > their > haiku -- and I'm talking about many hundreds of leading haiku poets who > I pay > attention to, perhaps even thousands. They nearly all started out > writing > 5-7-5, as did I. And then they progressed to learning the more > important aspects > of the genre (and haiku is best thought of as a genre of poetry, of > which > "form" is just one aspect). At this point, nearly all of them stop > writing in > the 5-7-5 pattern. The few exceptions to this progression include those > who > went straight to avoiding 5-7-5 in the first place. But there are clear > reasons > for this progression. It's not that 5-7-5 is "abandoned." Rather, it is > > apprehended as something that was inappropriate in the first place, and > causes > many problems in English. Higher targets are sought -- ones, in fact, > that turn > out to be far more challenging and require far more discipline. If > 5-7-5 in > English serves any useful purpose, it is purely as the first > stepping-stone on > a long path. But, alas, too many people, even otherwise accomplished > poets, > stop at just that first stepping stone with their haiku. > > > In a message dated 02-Feb-07 9:01:40 PM Pacific Standard Time, > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU writes: > > Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 10:41:59 -0600 > From: Joe Amato > Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match > > While I think it's a good idea to understand that 5-7-5 is simply a > convenience of sorts, even something of a mistranslation (even > something of a cultural oversight), I feel about this pretty much the > way I feel about bending any formal rule. I.e., it's fun to use > 5-7-5 as an arbitrary constraint in composing haiku, just as it's fun > to use 14 lines as an arbitrary constraint in composing sonnets. > (Which latter might not result in 14 lines, ysee, but that won't keep > me from calling it a sonnet.) > > Granted, correcting the misconception is one thing. But having fun > with same is quite another, which, to me, is one reason I write > poetry. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 00:22:39 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: A New BathHouse! In-Reply-To: <20070209021440.98280.qmail@web54613.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here are some interesting Russian sites: http://platform.netslova.ru/english.html (visual poetry) http://cmart.design.ru (net art) http://www.andrekarpov.com (Andre Karpov, citizen of the world) I read the essay at www.emich.edu/studentorgs/bhouse , Alexander. Curious. Many new media artists and critics are at pains to insist on the unimportance of net art which, they maintain, is no longer serious. I surmise that what is serious is work in galleries, and performance. And video and film. And glossy books. Fishy. ja > > ...the major component is a fascinating > > look at Russian > > Net art by an important cultural critic from St. > > Petersburg, Russia. > > We've also got a couple of other pieces, all worth > > checking out. > > > > Mike Alber > > Editor > > BathHouse > > www.emich.edu/studentorgs/bhouse ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 07:25:03 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Haas Bianchi Subject: Re: RIP Anna Nicole - The end of an era In-Reply-To: <002e01c74bd3$df80a080$220110ac@AARONLAPTOP> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Such lament. I am sure that there is a PHD thesis somewhere in this. -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Aaron Belz Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 4:53 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: RIP Anna Nicole - The end of an era Folks- An era has ended. Anna Nicole Smith died today in a hotel room in Hollywood, Florida. She was 39 years old. I am hopeful that works of art, music, literature, etc. are forthcoming to commemorate her life and mourn her tragic death. A special issue of Painted Bride Quarterly, perhaps. Oh, maybe I sound ironic, but I really am feeling this one. Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 23:01:04 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Glass Subject: Looking for Wikipedia Help MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" For these pages: Found Poetry. The page needs more serious examples. Judith Skillman Oscar Williams Fleshing out Helen Adams Would like to start a Gene Derwood page. If you'd like to help, please back-channel Haptic Poetry It's incredibly easy to edit a wiki page. Please take a look at the Faq "What Wikipedia Is and What It Isn't" and material about what makes a good article before you begin. Jess ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 09:03:01 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "C. A. Conrad" Subject: UPDATE on the Frank Sherlock EMERGENCY FUND......thanks Juliana!................ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit UPDATE on the Frank Sherlock EMERGENCY FUND..................................... a link for those wishing to include this in blogs: _http://phillysound.blogspot.com/2007_02_01_phillysound_archive.html_ (http://phillysound.blogspot.com/2007_02_01_phillysound_archive.html) Thanks to the generosity of Juliana Spahr you can now send checks for the Frank Sherlock EMERGENCY FUND which will be tax deductible! 'A 'A ARTS c/o J. Spahr 5000 MacArthur Blvd. Oakland, CA 94613 CHECKS SHOULD BE MADE OUT TO "'A 'A ARTS" and these checks will be tax deductible. PLEASE MAKE A NOTE THAT YOUR CHECK IS FOR FRANK SHERLOCK. Thanks so much! Your donations are very much appreciated! from the Friends of Frank Sherlock ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 09:30:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Re: Vernon Frazer in Mad Hatter's Review MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello I received noticed that I jumped the gun in announcing my work on Mad Hatter's Review (http://www.madhattersreview.com ). The new issue won't officially appear until Valentine's Day. Vernon http://vernonfrazer.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 06:46:59 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: thom donovan Subject: REMINDER: POA presents David Levi Strauss & Kyle Schlesinger TONIGHT Friday February 9th, 2007 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peace On A presents David Levi Strauss & Kyle Schlesinger Friday, February 9th 2007 8PM BYOB & recommended donation: $5 hosted by Thom Donovan at: 166 Avenue A, Apartment #2 New York, NY 10009 about the readers: Kyle Schlesinger is a book artist, poet, editor and the guy who does Cuneiform Press. Recent artists’ books include A Book of Closings and Moonlighting. His serial poem Mantle (with Thom Donovan) was published by Atticus Finch in 2005, and his next book of poems will be published by BlazeVox Books in 2007. He currently teaches poetry and typography at the University at Buffalo. Meanwhile prolongs this observation. Boarding trains this circular morn bet- ween two points the sky – robin blue and just for you. Declines night now. Waning figures cast fishnet sentences. Lines dar- ting here or there – sequence yourself. ~ from Moonlighting David Levi Strauss is a writer and critic in New York, where his essays and reviews appear regularly in Artforum and Aperture. His collection of essays on photography and politics, Between the Eyes, with an introduction by John Berger, was published by Aperture in 2003, and has just been released in an Italian edition by Postmedia. The Book of 101 Books: Seminal Photography Books of the Twentieth Century, with catalogue essays by Strauss, was published by P.P.P. Editions and D.A.P. in 2001. Between Dog & Wolf: Essays on Art & Politics was published in 1999 by Autonomedia, and Broken Wings: The Legacy of Landmines (with photographer Bobby Neel Adams) came out in 1998. His essays have appeared in a number of recent books and monographs on artists such as Leon Golub and Nancy Spero, Martin Puryear, Miguel Rio Branco, Francesca Woodman, Carolee Schneemann, and Alfredo Jaar. He was the founding editor of ACTS: A Journal of New Writing (1982-1990), and author of a book of poetry, Manoeuvres, before moving from San Francisco to New York in 1993. He has been awarded a Logan grant, three Artspace grants, a Visiting Scholar Research Fellowship from the Center for Creative Photography, a Guggenheim fellowship in 2003-04, and the Infinity Award for writing from the International Center of Photography in 2006. Strauss taught at the Center for Curatorial Studies at Bard College from 2001-05, and is now on the faculties of both the Graduate School of the Arts and the undergraduate studio art program at Bard. In his introduction to Between the Eyes, John Berger wrote, “Strauss, who is a poet and storyteller as well as being a renowned commentator on photography (I reject the designation critic) looks at images very hard . . . and comes face-to-face with the unexplained. Again and again. The unexplained that he encounters has only little to do with the mystery of art and everything to do with the mystery of countless lives being lived.” And Luc Sante wrote, “David Levi Strauss brings an eloquent and deep moral seriousness to his examination of photography. Again and again he makes the ringing point that trying to separate aesthetics and politics can only result in vacuity. He is photography’s troubled conscience.” Half hope, half fear. Like when people who react against politically committed art say, on the one hand, that such art is pretentious, delusional, and dishonest, since art is powerless to cause real political change; and, on the other hand, that this kind of art is irresponsible and dangerous, since it inflames the passions of the already savage rabble. So which is it, dog or wolf? ~ from Between Dog & Wolf Peace On A is an events series devoted to emergent work by writers, artists, performers and scholars. Past presenters at Peace on A include Alan Gilbert, E. Tracy Grinnell, Cathy Park Hong, Paolo Javier, Andrew Levy & Eléna Rivera. Scroll down Wild Horses of Fire weblog (whof.blogspot.com) for back advertisements, introductions and reading selections. Measure a million million Measure a million to margin ~ Susan Howe 166 Avenue A NY, NY 10009 whof.blogspot.com ____________________________________________________________________________________ 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 09:53:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: susan maurer Subject: robin morgan's new fighting words Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed went to a reading at nyc strand of atheist jack huberman and social activist and poet robin morgan, she is very informative and extremely entertaining on the subject of countering arguments with the religious right. susan maurer _________________________________________________________________ Laugh, share and connect with Windows Live Messenger http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwme0020000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://imagine-msn.com/messenger/launch80/default.aspx?locale=en-us&source=hmtagline ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 09:07:07 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Crockett Subject: Listenlight new issue 07 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Ransom" --- listenlight 07 ------ Christine Hamm, Caleb Puckett, Kimberly Truitt, Lisa Jarnot, Ridley Sindios, C A Conrad, Amanda Chiado, Suchoon Mo, Noah Eli Gordon, Sara Veglahn, Joshua Marie Wilkinson listenlight.net Jesse Crockett, editor ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 09:28:57 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: behalf of:[WIB-LA] ISRAELI[ANTI-]APARTHEID WEEK - NYC! - Feb. 10 - Feb. 18, 2007 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed On behalf of WIB-LA and associated Peace, Human Rights, Legal and Women's groups (WIB stands for Women in Black; this is from the LA chapter) wide variety of events and speakers including Professor EmeritusTanya Reinart from Tel Aviv University--author of some very good books and journalism. Robert Robideau, Leonard Peltier Defense Committee & American Indian Movement benefit for Young Photographers of Balata Refugee Camp--some of whom will be traveling in USA with exhibition of works by the young people participating iin this program (aim and shoot with cameras, not guns being the idea in good part) ***PLEASE CIRCULATE WIDELY*** The 3rd >International Israeli Apartheid Week – New York City Come out to Israeli >Apartheid Week (IAW) to be held in New York City for the first time. IAW >will be a weeklong series of events held concurrently in different >cities around the world to contribute to a growing public discussion of >Israel as an apartheid state and to gather support for the international >boycott, divestment, and sanctions campaign called for by more than 170 >Palestinian civil society organizations in July, 2005. For more >information about Israeli Apartheid Week please visit >www.endisraeliapartheid.net. Below is the schedule of events for the >week: GRASSROOTS NONVIOLENT RESISTANCE TO ISRAELI APARTHEID IN PALESTINE >Mohammed Khatib from Bil'in and Feryal Abu Haikal from Tel Rumeida, >Hebron Saturday, February 10 at 6:30 p.m. Hunter College, 695 Park >Avenue between 67th and 68th streets Hunter West Building, 4th floor, >room HW415 Sponsored by The Palestine Club at Hunter College; >ISM-NYC;Adalah-NY ISRAEL AND THE APARTHEID ANALOGY Saree Makdisi, >professor of English literature , University of California Los Angeles >Basheer Abu-Manneh, assistant professor of English, Barnard University >Robert Robideau, co-director of the Leonard Peltier Defense Committee >and member of the American Indian Movement Yifat Susskind, >communications director of the International Women's Human Rights >Organization MADRE. Monday, February 12 at 7:30 p.m. Judson Memorial >Church, 55 Washington Square South. Take the A, C, E, F, B or V to West >4th Street Sponsored by Israeli Apartheid Week NYC DIGITAL RESISTANCE: >PALESTINIAN YOUTH MEDIA Tuesday, February 13 at 7:00pm Furman Hall, 245 >Sullivan Street, Room 214 Take the A, C, E, F, B or V to West 4th Street >Sponsored by the Palestine/Israel Education Project; NYU SJP; NYU >Women's Center; Law Students for Human Right. CONTESTING ISRAELI >APARTHEID: BOYCOTT, DIVESTMENT AND SANCTIONS IN CONTEXT Sami Hermez, >Riham Barghouti and Issa Mikel Tuesday, February 13 at 7:00 p.m. WESPAC >Foundation, 255 Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Blvd., White Plains AND >Thursday, February 15 at 7:00 p.m. Judson Memorial Church, 239 Thompson >St. Sponsored by the NYC Campaign for Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions >LOVE UNDER APARTHEID: PALESTINIANS AND ISRAEL'S DISCRIMINATORY MARRIAGE >LAWS Jamil Dakwar, former senior attorney for Adalah: The Legal Center >for Arab Minority Rights in Israel, followed by a screening of the film >"Just Married," directed by Ayelet Bechar. Wednesday, February 14 at >7:30-9:45 p.m. Brecht Forum, 451 West Street between Bank and Bethune >Sponsored by Action Wednesdays Against the War and NYU-SJP APARTHEID >THROUGH THE LENS A Fundraising Evening for the Young Photographers of >Balata Refugee Camp, Palestine Thursday, February 15 at 7:00 p.m. Alwan: >16 Beaver St. $10 suggested donation at the door Sponsored by Al-Awda, >Palestine Right to Return Coalition - NY CHALLENGING ISRAELI APARTHEID >Joseph Massad, associate professor of Middle East studies, Columbia >University Tanya Reinhart, professor emeritus, Tel Aviv University >Friday, February 16th at 7:30 p.m. St. Mary's Episcopal Church, 521 W. >126th St. between Amsterdam and Broadway Take the 1 to 125th street >Sponsored by Israeli Apartheid Week NYC EXPOSING ISRAELI APARTHEID - >SUPPORTING PALESTINIAN LIBERATION: A Teach-In Sunday, February 18, >2:00-5:00 p.m. Pope Hall, St. Peter's College, 2641 Kennedy Blvd., >Jersey City, NJ Sponsored by NJ Solidarity – Activists for the >Liberation of Palestine For more information about Israeli Apartheid >Week visit www.endisraeliapartheid.net or contact: >israeliapartheidweek@yahoo.com. For more information about the >international boycott, divestment, and sanctions campaign please visit >www.bds-palestine.net. NYC-area sponsors of Israeli Apartheid Week are: >NYU Students for Justice in Palestine; Falasteen and the Arab Students >Association at Columbia University; Action Wednesdays Against the War; >Adalah-NY: The Coalition for Justice in the Middle East; the Palestinian >Education Project; Al-Awda New York; NJ Solidarity – Activists for the >Liberation of Palestine; ISM-NYC; and WESPAC. >________________________________________________________________________ >___________________ > > >To subscribe to the group, send an email to: >WIB-LA-subscribe@yahoogroups.com > > _________________________________________________________________ Don’t miss your chance to WIN 10 hours of private jet travel from Microsoft Office Live http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0540002499mrt/direct/01/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 09:03:43 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: The Object in Postmodernism In-Reply-To: <347232.31293.qm@web54606.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit An anecdote: In a class on cross cultural criticism, discussing some of Picasso's later work. A student begins by stating the images studied are an example of the objectification of women, that such images of a woman exposed with legs drawn can only be constructed by another woman and indicates, which is more interesting to me, that Picasso's work is bad - malicious, even. I understand that these are tools for examining culture, etc - and it's all old for me - but for me what was more interesting was what it indicated about the author, Picasso, who in later years was stricken by a kind of psychological melee related to his declining health and prostate cancer. What do you think? And back-channel if deemed safer. Certainly there is no universality of thought with regards to these issues of representation, but I'm trying to gage where some of us are. Regards, Alexander Jorgensen --- ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 11:52:20 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Vagina Monologues Gets New Name Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed (censorship has become so commonplace that this didn't even make any national news source....) Vagina Monologues Gets New Name By Summer Minor http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/145495/ vagina_monologues_gets_new_name.html The Atlantic Theaters marquis in Atlantic Beach Florida caused a stir when they changed the advertisement for the Vagina Monologues to the "Hoohaa" Monologues after receiving a complaint about the play's name. A driver complained to the theater, saying that she saw the title and was upset that her niece had also seen the title. Bryce Pfanenstiel, of the Atlantic Theater, said "We got a complaint about this play The Vagina Monologues. We decided we would just use child slang for it. That's how we decided on Hoohah Monologues." Though the theater says they trying not to offend anyone, some are upset over the change. "A child who is old enough to read it on a sign should already know what 'vagina' is, as well as vulva, penis, scrotum, clitoris," some are saying about the sign change. The Vagina Monologues is an award winning play written by Eve Ensler which premiered at the off-Broadway Westside Theatre in 1996. The play is a series of monologues preformed by women that relate to the vagina, be it through sex, love, rape, menstruation, mutilation, masturbation, birth, orgasm, the variety of names for the vagina, or simply as a physical aspect of the female body. A recurring theme throughout the piece is the vagina as a tool of female empowerment, and the ultimate embodiment of individuality. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 11:58:29 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: Vagina Monologues Gets New Name In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Speaking of censorship, my company publishes a monthly newsletter for =20= employees & each Feb they have a special Valentine's issue. I =20 submitted the spampo piece pasted below but it was removed from the =20 issue because it was deemed unappropriate & possibly offensive to =20 employees. ~mIEKAL VIAGRA I cant find that file This is where I get my Valium Unfolding The Rose... Give Her Something To Smile About! Your antidepressant with no side effects You here yet Fast-Acting Very Confidencial (please call me) meeting is on Monday boys this your chance! I just called to say I Love You No one will know! i=92m in your area Don=92t wait to find out... What will your family do? only this would helps =00=00 On Feb 9, 2007, at 11:52 AM, mIEKAL aND wrote: > (censorship has become so commonplace that this didn't even make =20 > any national news source....) > > Vagina Monologues Gets New Name > > By Summer Minor > > http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/145495/=20 > vagina_monologues_gets_new_name.html > > The Atlantic Theaters marquis in Atlantic Beach Florida caused a =20 > stir when they changed the advertisement for the Vagina Monologues =20 > to the "Hoohaa" Monologues after receiving a complaint about the =20 > play's name. > > A driver complained to the theater, saying that she saw the title =20 > and was upset that her niece had also seen the title. > > Bryce Pfanenstiel, of the Atlantic Theater, said "We got a =20 > complaint about this play The Vagina Monologues. We decided we =20 > would just use child slang for it. That's how we decided on Hoohah =20 > Monologues." > > Though the theater says they trying not to offend anyone, some are =20 > upset over the change. "A child who is old enough to read it on a =20 > sign should already know what 'vagina' is, as well as vulva, penis, =20= > scrotum, clitoris," some are saying about the sign change. > > The Vagina Monologues is an award winning play written by Eve =20 > Ensler which premiered at the off-Broadway Westside Theatre in =20 > 1996. The play is a series of monologues preformed by women that =20 > relate to the vagina, be it through sex, love, rape, menstruation, =20 > mutilation, masturbation, birth, orgasm, the variety of names for =20 > the vagina, or simply as a physical aspect of the female body. A =20 > recurring theme throughout the piece is the vagina as a tool of =20 > female empowerment, and the ultimate embodiment of individuality. > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 14:07:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Factory School Subject: Meet the Press (PS 1 and 2) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed public statement: "Report on Future Viability of the Capital Expansion=20= of Experimental Writing Markets" Content is arbitrary. Most studies of group formation concentrate on labelling zeitgeist or=20 subculture; rarely is an organizational plan offered as a formula for=20 =93building an audience.=94 * public statement: "Heresy in the Small Press Education World" The current crisis in poetry is that there's no crisis. =46rom Poetry's=20= "vigorous presence" in US culture to the fulfilled promises of the=20 radical avant-garde, there's nothing heretical, even all that risky, in=20= publishing anti-ideological refrains for a captured audience of=20 converts. Or what. * Meet the Press: An Evening With Factory School Design Team Poetry Project at St. Marks Church Monday, 8:00 pm http://www.poetryproject.com/calendar.php ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 13:33:19 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: Re: RIP Anna Nicole - The end of an era MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, such lament. Here's my poem to mark the occasion. It's not very good--like yesterday's news-- Belz ANNA NICOLE SMITH (1967-2007) You said you wanted to make a name for yourself. What kind of name? They asked. Anna Nicole Smith, you replied in a tiny voice-- then found a husband's worth of love in a man named Howard Stern who, not a DJ, knew the logic of your reply. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 14:44:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: Re: RIP Anna Nicole - The end of an era In-Reply-To: <002f01c74c81$281b2bf0$220110ac@AARONLAPTOP> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit So, has the poetics list now devolved to us making fun of dead people? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 12:02:21 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: RIP Anna Nicole - The end of an era In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Yes. I agree. Our making fun of dead people isn't poetics. On 9-Feb-07, at 11:44 AM, David A. Kirschenbaum wrote: > So, has the poetics list now devolved to us making fun of dead people? > > George B. Author of his own misfortunes. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 15:02:22 -0500 Reply-To: az421@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rob McLennan Subject: Re: RIP Anna Nicole - The end of an era Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT ya; id say theres no need for that. rob > >So, has the poetics list now devolved to us making fun of dead people? > > -- poet/editor/publisher ...STANZAS mag, above/ground press & Chaudiere Books (www.chaudierebooks.com) ...coord.,SPAN-O + ottawa small press fair ...12th poetry coll'n - aubade (Broken Jaw Press) .... c/o 858 Somerset St W, Ottawa ON K1R 6R7 * http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 15:07:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eric Subject: Re: RIP Anna Nicole - The end of an era In-Reply-To: <33d5d74fbdffb9cd6c7ca5a3a6afbad0@sfu.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>Our making fun of dead people isn't poetics. How about ee cummings making fun of buffalo bill's defunct atony? Maybe it depends on how long the subject is dead? And of course the motives of the fun-maker? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 15:08:27 -0500 Reply-To: az421@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rob McLennan Subject: Re: RIP Anna Nicole - The end of an era Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT he isnt on the list; i dont think it would be any better there either. rob >How about ee cummings making fun of buffalo bill's defunct atony? Maybe >it depends on how long the subject is dead? And of course the motives of >the fun-maker? > > -- poet/editor/publisher ...STANZAS mag, above/ground press & Chaudiere Books (www.chaudierebooks.com) ...coord.,SPAN-O + ottawa small press fair ...12th poetry coll'n - aubade (Broken Jaw Press) .... c/o 858 Somerset St W, Ottawa ON K1R 6R7 * http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 14:16:45 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Coffey Subject: Re: RIP Anna Nicole - The end of an era In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline No. I think Belz did an honest and fair job of poetically eulogizing ANS. On 2/9/07, David A. Kirschenbaum wrote: > So, has the poetics list now devolved to us making fun of dead people? > -- http://hyperhypo.org/blog http://www.pftborder.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 12:12:40 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: L Guevarra Subject: NEW BOOK: Green and Gray Comments: To: poetics@listserv.buffalo.edu. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Dear Buffalo Poetics List: The University of California Press is pleased to announce the publication of: Green and Gray Geoffrey G. O'Brien is a Lecturer at the University of California, Berkeley, and the author of _The Guns and Flags Project _(UC Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/O'Brien "O'Brien writes meditative poetry at the highest level. The thinking here is not 'about' anything; rather thinking becomes a modality of being within which the potential of lyric situations unfolds and takes on delightful intensities. These are not poems to interpret but to explore for how the mind attentive to the full resources of lyric traditions stretches the senses and therefore finds itself more truly and more strange."-Charles Altieri Geoffrey G. O'Brien's second collection documents the "remorse of the senses" that attends each moment of experience, the pain and pleasure of not exiting a world in which injustice and distraction secure every sensual event. Attempting to reestablish experience as something other than complicity, these poems insist on "desiring that which is as if it were not," making poetry out of neighborhood flyers, the Patriot Act, and the poverty of presidential speech. Given this mandate to stay within limited resources, _Green and Gray_ makes a virtue of refusing to abandon them, often relying on an emphatic recirculation of words and phrases to generate its own system complexities. These are poems whose materials remember their former use: the gray of the city and the green it used to be. Full information about the book, including the table of contents, is available online: http://go.ucpress.edu/O'Brien -- Lolita Guevarra Electronic Marketing Coordinator University of California Press Tel. 510.643.4738 | Fax 510.643.7127 lolita.guevarra@ucpress.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 12:25:39 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: L Guevarra Subject: NEW BOOK: Harm. Comments: To: poetics@listserv.buffalo.edu. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Dear Buffalo Poetics List: The University of California Press is pleased to announce the publication of: Harm. Steve Willard's work has been published in _Colorado Review, Volt, Boston Review, Denver Quarterly,_ and _1913 - A Journal of Forms._ http://go.ucpress.edu/Willard "You'll want to stop right now and read this book. No day should be without its adamancy, its invention, its honesty. Its edge of defiance, mixed with triumph, operates like a spotlight on human possibility. Always veering just out of sense on a curve of sound, Willard's is a voice that not only has something new to say but that has also has found a new way to say it. This is language at the speed of life."-Cole Swensen, author of _The Book of a Hundred Hands_ This debut volume establishes Steve Willard as a true original, an artist whose kinetic sense of wordplay is deft, smart, and unfailingly provocative. Intended to be read in repeated passes, these poems are Cubist in feel, multifaceted in syntax, and brilliant in coloration. By turns disjunctive, narrative, plaintive, and disruptive, _Harm. _makes use of a wide formal range in reaching toward its ambition, which is nothing short of reclaiming lost human potentiality from current norms. Syntax flexes and the world is refigured, observed as if through a different camera's open aperture, drawing the reader to a new and transformative interior landscape. Full information about the bookis available online: http://go.ucpress.edu/Willard -- Lolita Guevarra Electronic Marketing Coordinator University of California Press Tel. 510.643.4738 | Fax 510.643.7127 lolita.guevarra@ucpress.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 21:33:52 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ren Powell Subject: Re: RIP Anna Nicole - The end of an era In-Reply-To: <002e01c74bd3$df80a080$220110ac@AARONLAPTOP> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If ever I tended toward misanthropic brooding, the postings on this are inspiring. Thinking of Aristotle's definition of tragic and given the media-, fame-hungry society we live in. . . add to that the fact that her child died before she did, it is tragic and hardly a call for jokes in bad taste. The only thing I find ironic is that people who write poetry can look at things with such a shallow gaze. ______ Ren Powell post@renpowell.com www.sidesteppingreal.blogspot.com www.icorn.org ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 15:39:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pluto, Anne Elezabeth" Subject: Re: RIP Anna Nicole - The end of an era In-Reply-To: A<00ca01c74c89$9dbe1860$6400a8c0@REN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you - Ron Powell - how sad and true. As a mother - I can't even = imagine what it would be like to bury my child.=20 > ---------- > From: UB Poetics discussion group on behalf of Ren Powell > Reply To: UB Poetics discussion group > Sent: Friday, February 9, 2007 3:33 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: RIP Anna Nicole - The end of an era >=20 > If ever I tended toward misanthropic brooding, the postings on this = are > inspiring.=20 >=20 > Thinking of Aristotle's definition of tragic and given the media-, > fame-hungry society we live in. . . add to that the fact that her = child died > before she did, it is tragic and hardly a call for jokes in bad taste. = > The only thing I find ironic is that people who write poetry can look = at > things with such a shallow gaze.=20 >=20 > ______ > Ren Powell > post@renpowell.com > www.sidesteppingreal.blogspot.com > www.icorn.org=20 >=20 >=20 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 21:40:30 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ren Powell Subject: nevermind. . . MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry- total knee jerk jerk posting stemming from a truly well-rooted misanthropy. ______ Ren Powell post@renpowell.com www.sidesteppingreal.blogspot.com www.icorn.org ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 12:47:41 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: RIP Anna Nicole - The end of an era In-Reply-To: <32C2593C18493C479D813135BAC8D191011A3E3B@utmail1.lesley.lu.lesley.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 9-Feb-07, at 12:39 PM, Pluto, Anne Elezabeth wrote: > Thank you - Ron Powell - how sad and true. As a mother - I can't > even imagine what it would be like to bury my child. >> > > Well, my wife did that 4 months ago, and I can tell you that it is worse remembering than it is imagining. gb ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 14:47:35 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: I was serious... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey folks - my poem, and my sense of loss, is real. The Anna Nicole Smith story is complex and symbolic of our age. I think the fact that you read the poem as "making fun" might speak more to your own academic detachedness rather than anything inherently lighthearted about the poem I posted. Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 15:51:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kevin thurston Subject: Re: I was serious... In-Reply-To: <001b01c74c8b$89852d00$220110ac@AARONLAPTOP> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline amen nothing can kill passion and create cynicism like a .edu email address On 2/9/07, Aaron Belz wrote: > > Hey folks - my poem, and my sense of loss, is real. The Anna Nicole Smith > story is complex and symbolic of our age. I think the fact that you read > the poem as "making fun" might speak more to your own academic > detachedness > rather than anything inherently lighthearted about the poem I posted. > > Aaron > -- new address as of 2/1 299 richmond ave lower buffalo, ny 14222 usofa ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 16:02:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Suzanne Burns Subject: Re: RIP Anna Nicole - The end of an era In-Reply-To: <002f01c74c81$281b2bf0$220110ac@AARONLAPTOP> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Ahhh, Anna Nicole. Thanks for the mammaries. Suzanne (Sorry, had to get that in....) On 2/9/07, Aaron Belz wrote: > > Yes, such lament. Here's my poem to mark the occasion. It's not very > good--like yesterday's news-- Belz > > > > ANNA NICOLE SMITH (1967-2007) > > You said you wanted > to make a name > for yourself. > > What kind of name? > They asked. > Anna Nicole Smith, > > you replied > in a tiny voice-- > then found > > a husband's worth > of love in a man > named Howard Stern > > who, not a DJ, > knew the logic > of your reply. > -- "I will take the Ring to Mordor...though...I do not know the way." Frodo Baggins, Fellowship of the Ring ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 16:36:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Anna Nicole Smith MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed She always fascinated me. Like Michael Jackson she broke a lot of taboos, she couldn't be placed. Her reality show was time slowed, almost milky. Howard K. Stern talked Ivy League, she murmured. Her son was there. I never knew what I was watching. I was constantly thrown off, in a way that her son's death was thrown off, and her death, now, is thrown off. She couldn't be placed: just as soon as you had it figured out, it transformed. I did guess that she and Howard were lovers; it was an odd subtext to the show. The photographs were sexy but meta-sexed; they didn't register properly, there was always something else going on. On another list people rave Anita Berber; there's a relationship. So poetics? Yes because this doesn't fit, it fractures, it breaks the discourse of the Law, however you want to define it. It's not only semantics, it's syntax that's broken down, just as reporters couldn't get "hold" of Michael Jackson. Then again, her life and death say something about our notions of beauty, a kind of inconceivable sexuality associated with it, the body can't keep up. What's incarnate falls apart; it's always already fallen apart. Finally, there are very real class (economic, geographic, educational) issues here; like Tonya Harding, she couldn't keep up (I remember TH's mother saying she couldn't raise an ice princess), or she kept up, on her own track, in her own way, which is something few of us get to do. This really was upsetting. - Alan ======================================================================= Work on YouTube, blog at http://nikuko.blogspot.com . Tel 718-813-3285. Webpage directory http://www.asondheim.org . Email: sondheim@panix.com. http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim for theory; also check WVU Zwiki, Google for recent. Write for info on books, cds, performance, dvds, etc. ============================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 22:47:40 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cralan kelder Subject: this interesting fascinate In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit nice vid to watch starts out with difference between hand written and digital texts, segues into something describing itself http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gmP4nk0EOE&eurl ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 13:47:57 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lewis LaCook Subject: The Fog of Dracula - New Video by Lewis LaCook Comments: To: webartery , rhizome , netbehaviour MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://www.lewislacook.org/king-s-woods/the-fog-of-dracula.html Lewis LaCook Director of Web Development Abstract Outlooks Media 440-989-6481 http://www.abstractoutlooks.com Abstract Outlooks Media - Premium Web Hosting, Development, and Art Photography http://www.lewislacook.org lewislacook.org - New Media Poetry and Poetics http://www.xanaxpop.org Xanax Pop - the Poetry of Lewis LaCook --------------------------------- Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 22:59:53 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ren Powell Subject: Re: Anna Nicole Smith In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eloquent, Alan. If I write a very short thanks it would be taken for irony, wouldn't it? It's not. ______ Ren Powell ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 17:43:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Dylan Welch Subject: Re: haiku In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" If Paul Violi's "Don't look at my face. / No change, just large bills. / One wrong move will be your last." poem blows your mind, wonderful. It's quite arresting, I agree. But it's not because it has anything to do with haiku (except for the obvious overlap with haiku of having brevity, which gives the poem focus). So the problem here is either you or the poet labelling it as a haiku. For an overview of reasons why it has little to do with haiku, see my online essay "Becoming a Haiku Poet" (http://www.haikuworld.org/begin/mdwelch.apr2003.html). Or see the 2005 edition of *Poet's Market* (Writer's Digest Books, 2004), in which I have an essay on haiku and applying its techniques and aesthetics to the writing of longer poetry. Comments welcome. By the way, wordplay on "low-ku," "noir-coup," or whatever, is another mark of haiku poetasters. So are most poems about haiku. I went through this stage, too. But I got over it. This is the kind of trivia I got over (from the esteemed pen of Mr. Daniel Zimmerman): flag haiku one two three four five six seven eight nine ten e- leven twelve thirteen A wee bit of reseach in haiku literature would reveal, by the way, that haiku nearly never have titles, and there are important reasons why. As Charlie Rossiter says, do some *serious* research and study of the genre before proclaiming work as being haiku, let alone saying that you "don't think there can be a haiku better" than the example by Paul Violi. As strong as Violi's poem may be as poetry, and as clear as its virtues are (I could see myself publishing it too), it has nearly nothing to do with haiku, and is easily torn apart for failing as haiku. And a quick, respectful message to George (Bowering): You say, "Best US haiku I know is Ron Padgett's:" Seven syllables Eleven syllables Seven syllables I have to hope your tongue is in your cheek. But if so, why? Why promote a poem that doesn't take the genre seriously? If you mean to damn all American poems by favouring such an obviously clueless one, then that seems to suggest an unfamiliarity with the best haiku written in English. And if your tongue's not in your cheek, why would you say this is a good haiku? Have you read Cor van den Heuvel's *Haiku Anthology*, just for starters? For a slightly dated annotated list of recommended books on haiku, visit http://mensaww.org/HaikuBooks.htm. Chris Stroffolino also writes that one of the "shorthand staples of early 20th c.---eliot's objective correlative? or no ideas but in things?" . . . "seems to distort/reduce too the haiku suggestiveness." I would answer by saying this: Because haiku -- perhaps more than any other poetry (because it's so short) -- relies on the emotive power behind things, the notion of the objective correlative increases its suggestiveness rather than distort or reduce it. We have an immediate reaction to the word chair that's different, say, than our reaction to the word soup. And think, too, of how we react differently to "easy chair" compared with "electric chair." I'm just naming things with these examples, but these objects correlate to immediate emotions or feelings, or connotations and associations. Even a "stone" will carry some feeling for us when we read the word in a poem, though of course the nature of that feeling may vary from person to person. There's more to the concept of the objective correlative than just this, of course, but haiku relies on the emotive power of things perhaps more strongly than other poetry. To the extent that haiku is mostly objective, focusing on nouns a nd things such as they are (yet presented in such a way to imply a relationship and an intuitive feeling), haiku strongly rely on the emotive weight associated with each thing named in the poem. Certainly there are subjective or nonliteral elements in some haiku (such as in Shiki's poem, "for me going / for you staying / two autumns," or Basho's haiku about the cicada's cries piercing the rocks), but not every haiku is or needs to be strictly objective. It's a matter of finding balance, within each poem, and in a particular poem relative to other poems. They are examples of controlling the objectivity and subjectivity, and typically, where there's a subjective element in haiku, it's usually in the context of something that's clearly objective -- something that grounds the rest of the poem so the subjective element isn't overpowering. Sure, you can do ____ (whatever: fill in the blank) in a haiku -- but not necessarily often (heck, even have a title once in a very rare while, if it somehow really needs it). Haiku is not a strict set of rules (don't think that I think it is). Rather, haiku is a field of multiple targets, and a good haiku will hit multiple targets at once, but not necessarily all of them -- and occasionally miss one or two of them (on purpose) that certain people might feel are more important and should never be missed. That's why it's good to see haiku as a continuum with other kinds of poetry. Poetry first, labels later (if at all). But, I hasten to say, as soon as you label something as haiku, it had better be a proper understanding of haiku that you mean -- and for too many folks, that's not the case. Michael P.S. To discuss another poem offered here, from Eric (mr.eric.yost@GMAIL.COM): Golf Haiku Robin watches drive, waits until I leave the tee, probes divot for worm. Here are some problems with this "haiku" (which I would hope would be among the 1,000 haiku one writes before trying to publish any -- a task that haiku writer Jim Kacian set for himself): 1. It has a title, which haiku avoid (and in this case, the title is redundant -- we know from the poem that it's about golf, and we don't need to be condescended to and be told it's a haiku; in other "haiku" that have titles, the title is a sort of cheating -- adding a fourth line). 2. It drops natural articles in the first and third lines (a robin, a/my drive, the divot). Paul O. Williams, writing in *The Nick of Time: Essays on Haiku Aeshetics*, calls this tontoism. It arises when a person is insufficiently accomplished at crafting the poem to make it properly fit a form (if they wish to follow a prescribed syllable count), or if they think somehow that it's "better" simply to be briefer (if they're not following a set form). Ted Kooser has written that a good poem is like looking at tropical fish through the bottom of a glass-bottom boat, and that you don't want things to clatter down onto the glass as you look, or see smudges on the glass, and thus make you aware of where you're looking from. Rather, you want to be totally absorbed in what you're seeing, to experience IT as much as possible. As soon as you resort to tontoism, you show the apparatus, the scaffolding, and also reveal that following an arbitrary syllable count like an obedient school bo y is more important than crafting good content. (Let form be an extension of content!) The words of a good poem should be as invisible as possible, letting you feel the meaning or experience the image as sharply as possible -- this is why haiku is sometimes called the "wordless poem" (Alan Watts; Eric Amann). My goodness, the haiku crime of tontoism should be punishable by a lifetime of having to listen to Rod McKuen poetry speeded up to chipmunk speed. That's such a basic matter of crafting. I would have expected better on this discussion list. 3. It is presented as a sentence (ending with a period, even), and is oblivious to the fragmentary nature of haiku. Starting with a lowercase letter in this case would also prevent the misreading of "Robin" as a person's name, which muddies the interpretation of this poem. The lopping off of the article ("a robin") is another contributor to the wooliness in this line. 4. It lacks the two-part juxtapositional structure that focuses our attention on a specific emotion that we can figure out (the poem lacks implication and reverberation). Haiku, too, are usually not narrative like this one, and are usually best if they avoid a cause/effect presentation. 5. The poem is choppy and awkward. 6. Because of the worm, I suppose we can imagine it's spring or summer (I'd have to check the history of "worm" as a seasonal indicator), but the seasonal element isn't strong here. (That doesn't bother me too much, though.) A strong seasonal element, however, can greatly deepen the effect of a poem by tapping into seasonal or natural archetypes, and alluding to other poems about the same subject (allusion and a technique known as honkodori is common in Japanese poetry). 7. The biggest problem is that this is a so-what poem. There's no implication, nothing for the reader to figure out. I like the image well enough -- that a bird is waiting for your divot to look for worms (that's either a smart robin, or a lazy one). But that's all there is too it, and it's obfuscated by the awkward and unnecessary syntax, all in the name of 5-7-5. But something more needs to be left out, to be implied. Consider, for example, this poem: "an old woolen sweater / taken yarn by yarn / from the snowbank." When students in my classes figure out that it's about a bird taking bits of yarn for a nest in spring, their faces light up with realization -- they "get it." Yet no bird is mentioned. Most of the time, if a haiku doesn't leave something out to be "got," then it fails as a haiku, no matter how well the objectivity or subjectivity is controlled, whether it employs a kigo or kireji equivalent, or shasei (sketching form life) techniques -- and more. And through al l of this, of course, it's irrelevant whether the poem is 5-7-5 or not. On the good side, this poem is objective, but the POINT of using objectivity is to create some sort of subjective reaction -- an emotional or intuitive moment. And this poem feels too shallow in its use of objective description to have created enough of a leap, overtones, or reverberation. It's got a greater starter image for a haiku, that haiku don't end with images, they start with them. -----Original Message----- Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 07:12:09 +0000 From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: haiku I don't think there can a haiku better than this one by Paul Violi, which I am proud to have published in a magazine I co-edited many years ago. I don't believe it follows a single one of your rules, nor does it follow the conventional syllable count, but it blows my mind: Don't look at my face. No change, just large bills. One wrong move will be your last. ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 15:10:38 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: GEORGE BOWERING In-Reply-To: <435490.48445.qm@web54606.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Well, kind of. But I like labs. Who could not. On 8-Feb-07, at 6:24 PM, Alexander Jorgensen wrote: > Don't you sometimes get the feeling that he's kinda > like a labrador - who's been chewing on a bone for far > too long a time, just for the fun of it! His tail > waggin' and all ears! > > AJ > --- George Bowering wrote: > >> If he's smoking on the porch, >> you got him. >> >> gb >> >> >> On 8-Feb-07, at 1:17 PM, mIEKAL aND wrote: >> >>> If I wanna drive across the state to see this how >> can I be sure it >>> will actually be Kent Johnson who appears at this >> thing? >>> >>> You can never be too careful. >>> >>> ~mIEKAL >>> >>> >>> On Feb 8, 2007, at 3:03 PM, David-Baptiste Chirot >> wrote: >>> >>>> Kent Johnson--"Mr. Kent" in some of his poems, >> like Burroughs' being >>>> "Mr. Lee" in various of his writings--will be >> making the following >>>> appearances this month in the guise of the >> "author function" known as >>>> "Kent Johnson"--at the following sites: >>>> >>>> a reading at Illinois Wesleyan University the >> week following on >>>> Saturday, February 25, at 7:30 PM, Hansen Student >> Center, 300 Beecher >>>> St., Bloomington, Illinois. >>>> >>>> >>>> and, on behalf of Susan Firer from the English >> Dept. at UW-Milwaukee, >>>> this announcement of next week's Milwaukee >> appearances: >>> >>> >> Geo. Bowering, DLit >> A devotee of Veronica Lake >> > > > --- > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > _____________ > 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time > with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news > > George Satisfied with his undergarments. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 15:17:05 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: haiku In-Reply-To: <8C91AB2D92EA93C-D08-26A9@WEBMAIL-MA21.sysops.aol.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > A wee bit of reseach in haiku literature would reveal, by the way, that haiku > nearly never have titles, and there are important reasons why. As Charlie > Rossiter says, do some *serious* research and study of the genre before > proclaiming work as being haiku, let alone saying that you "don't think there > can be a haiku better" than the example by Paul Violi. As strong as Violi's > poem may be as poetry, and as clear as its virtues are (I could see myself > publishing it too), it has nearly nothing to do with haiku, and is easily torn > apart for failing as haiku. Maybe with my good Protestant origins, I have never been at home with adherence to any kind of orthodox system of behavior, but I find your insistences about Haiku (origins and form) static and humorless. Occasionally I work among elderly Chinese emigrants here in San Francisco, and indeed, for example, in making watercolors, many of them continue to adhere unwaveringly to 'branches, leaves, blossoms and bird' forms - sometimes attractive but boring, boring, rigid, etc. At best you want to tear up the pages and introduce students to the fresh experience of montage, collage, etc. Such as with Violi's haiku - the juxtaposition of what he has done against conventional content is startling, refreshing - a response that I find with what I can only sense to be 'good' translations of 'ancient' haiku. Much of which I suspect Paul Violi and many of us have been variably interested readers - whether via Pound, Rexroth, Waley & on. Your argument for a formally true Haiku, seems as claustrophobic to me as someone who might argue - with similar orthodox leanings - that Coltrane, Rollins, etc., etc. are not making authentic "ballads". Morph, my friend, morph - it is, from my experience, at least, a mutable, non-static universe of which the contemporary spirit and practice of haiku is inextricably involved. Stephen Vincent http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 18:17:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Dylan Welch Subject: Re: Haiku dumbness / snobbishness In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I don't think something has to be esoteric to be authentic. That's certainly the case for haiku (and here I note that the theme for the 2005 Haiku North America conference was "authenticity"!). In fact, if a haiku is too esoteric, it tends to *lose* authenticity for many people because they can't relate to it, or even stretch themselves to do so. Better, I think, to be esoteric (if you want) while also still being sufficiently authentic and accessible. Leaf through the pages of *Modern Haiku* magazine, or Cor van den Heuvel's *The Haiku Anthology*, and over and over you will find poems that strike a fine balance between the esoteric (alienating in the extreme) and the immediate (to easy and comfortable in the extreme). It's a balance between the universal and the particular, and a balance between the expression of the self and the effective communication of that self to someone else. More to the point here, Jason (re your message below), it seems I or others come off as haiku snobs to you. Forgive me for such snobbishness, if you can. And then I hope you and anyone else who feels the same way can still take a look at the ISSUE itself to see whether you understand it fully or not. I guess I am wagging a finger here, aren't I? And I'm obviously in earnest. But there are problems that deserve to have fingers wagged at them. Indeed, tell me, what else are we who write literary haiku supposed to do? I don't want to be snobbish about haiku -- in fact, one of the virtues of haiku is how accessible it can be, in that it focuses on everyday subjects of personal immediacy (Issa wrote about the flies in his house, Buson about his dead wife's comb underfoot). Yet what should we do if we see haiku being so widely misunderstood, even just in the mainstream poetry community (never mind the general public)? What, pray tell, am I being dumb about (to refer to the end of y our message)? Michael P.S. Some of you might be interested in a book review I wrote for Modern Haiku that's online at http://www.modernhaiku.org/bookreviews/UnsweptPath2006.html. I discuss the issue of influences in haiku, and the range of possibilities in the genre, in particular regarding the anthology *Unswept Path*, from White Pine Press -- an excellent yet flawed book. In this review, I deride the notion of a secret handshake for haiku poets. A secret society or the ghettoization of haiku is not what I think is good for anybody, hence this discussion. These are tricky matters of education, and unfortunately it seems to need to begin with the implication that person A is educated, and person B is not. It need never be brought up, except that, in this case person B seems to be claiming, even if not overtly, to be "educated" about haiku, when in fact that's demonstrably not the case. I'm interested in deghettoizing haiku here, and that means, I think, some education for those outside the haiku g hetto, as well as some education for those in the ghetto. A dialog between the two will do worlds of good. That's what I'm after. Telling me to keep my haiku to myself in a secret society isn't going to help. So how do we curb such haiku "snobbishness" and address the real issue at hand? -----Original Message----- Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 20:47:42 -0800 From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match but if we did that, then folks wouldn't be able to be snobby about authenticity. because we all know that authenticity is what's really important. and in order for anything to be authentic, it must first be esoteric. i think what should be done is that all the books about haiku, in particular lee gurga's that keeps getting recommended, ought to be entrusted to secret societies and all publicly available copies should be burnt. and then everyone who thinks it's important that a haiku be "real" can join the secret societies, and the rest of us can get on with writing short poems. i'll even promise to never call a short poem of mine a haiku so long as the haiku-snobs will promise to point out that it isn't really a haiku. then we can all be at peace with one another in a sort of zen state of mutually acknowledged dumbness. ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 18:17:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Factory School Subject: Meet the Press (PS 3 and 4) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable public statement: "Ex-Communication, Clandestine Missions (the bypath=20 of culture work)" Fleeting thoughts, nursery songs, idle chat, story-telling, worthless=20 tales, visions, nonsense, imaginary arguments, devices, trifles,=20 mockeries, dreams, absurdities -- all the fruits of dementia. Against the rhetorical unification of opposites, a multiplication of=20 contraries, with all books ex-communicating their ir-relevance and=20 ir-rationality in a new zone of heterodox cultural production. * public statement: "Design as Resistance Production" Where poetry ends, architecture begins. This is the end of the theater=20= architecture of the classroom. The pataphysician would build something impossible out of something=20 real; another kind of physician would build something real out of the=20 impossible. Utopian images, like poetry, end at the moment the=20 blueprints are held up to the sky.=A0 * Meet the Press: An Evening With Factory School Design Team Poetry Project at St. Marks Church Monday, 8:00 pm http://www.poetryproject.com/calendar.php ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 18:26:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: haiku In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed A couple of years ago, on a dare, I composed a renga according, as far as I understand them, to the orthodox rules, including the seasonal references in their ordained places, etc. Except of course that a renga is supposed to be a group effort. But there are enough of me to go around. RENGA Summer? In Sumer I'd expect it. But here? Waver of light rising off the tarmac. In such a state anything, tire tracks. ...and if I were a bird I would fly away... Harvest moon through smoke rising, enormous. Filtered by leaves the light stains your face. Made love to on the deep soft purple duff. Come out come out come all ye wherever you are. Easy to leave Cheyenne this morning. A mountain somewhere with something on it. Having pissed, polar bear is whiter than snow. Frozen, Moon River flows through frozen fields. Each day the bird has learned a different tune. Repetition the wild card in this game. Who wrote who wrote who wrote the book of love? Ask her: who wrote, wrought what? "Which needs?" she says. First there is a mountain with a white bear. Fly away, build a nest and shriek your heart out. Only bees can understand the flowers. One can refuse to be reborn, maybe. At 06:17 PM 2/9/2007, you wrote: > > A wee bit of reseach in haiku literature would reveal, by the > way, that haiku > > nearly never have titles, and there are important reasons why. As Charlie > > Rossiter says, do some *serious* research and study of the genre before > > proclaiming work as being haiku, let alone saying that you "don't > think there > > can be a haiku better" than the example by Paul Violi. As strong as Violi's > > poem may be as poetry, and as clear as its virtues are (I could see myself > > publishing it too), it has nearly nothing to do with haiku, and > is easily torn > > apart for failing as haiku. > >Maybe with my good Protestant origins, I have never been at home with >adherence to any kind of orthodox system of behavior, but I find your >insistences about Haiku (origins and form) static and humorless. >Occasionally I work among elderly Chinese emigrants here in San Francisco, >and indeed, for example, in making watercolors, many of them continue to >adhere unwaveringly to 'branches, leaves, blossoms and bird' forms - >sometimes attractive but boring, boring, rigid, etc. At best you want to >tear up the pages and introduce students to the fresh experience of montage, >collage, etc. >Such as with Violi's haiku - the juxtaposition of what he has done against >conventional content is startling, refreshing - a response that I find with >what I can only sense to be 'good' translations of 'ancient' haiku. Much of >which I suspect Paul Violi and many of us have been variably interested >readers - whether via Pound, Rexroth, Waley & on. > >Your argument for a formally true Haiku, seems as claustrophobic to me as >someone who might argue - with similar orthodox leanings - that Coltrane, >Rollins, etc., etc. are not making authentic "ballads". Morph, my friend, >morph - it is, from my experience, at least, a mutable, non-static universe >of which the contemporary spirit and practice of haiku is inextricably >involved. > >Stephen Vincent >http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > > > > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 19:12:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcus Bales Subject: Re: haiku Comments: To: Stephen Vincent In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 9 Feb 2007 at 15:17, Stephen Vincent wrote: > ... morph - it is, from my experience, at least, a mutable, non-static > universe of which the contemporary spirit and practice of haiku is > inextricably involved. Ah, the opinion that every opinion is just as good as every other opinion, "... except YOUR opinion is not as good as MINE...", rears its ugly head. Marcus ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 19:28:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: Anna Nicole Smith In-Reply-To: <00eb01c74c95$a1069630$6400a8c0@REN> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit amen to you both ruth l. On 2/9/07 4:59 PM, "Ren Powell" wrote: > Eloquent, Alan. > If I write a very short thanks it would be taken for irony, wouldn't it? > It's not. > ______ > Ren Powell ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 19:36:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Davey Volner Subject: Re: haiku In-Reply-To: <8C91AB2D92EA93C-D08-26A9@WEBMAIL-MA21.sysops.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I trust the writer understands that both Violi's haiku and Padgett's are satirical? On 2/9/07, Michael Dylan Welch wrote: > > If Paul Violi's "Don't look at my face. / No change, just large bills. / > One wrong move will be your last." poem blows your mind, wonderful. It's > quite arresting, I agree. But it's not because it has anything to do with > haiku (except for the obvious overlap with haiku of having brevity, which > gives the poem focus). So the problem here is either you or the poet > labelling it as a haiku. For an overview of reasons why it has little to do > with haiku, see my online essay "Becoming a Haiku Poet" ( > http://www.haikuworld.org/begin/mdwelch.apr2003.html). Or see the 2005 > edition of *Poet's Market* (Writer's Digest Books, 2004), in which I have an > essay on haiku and applying its techniques and aesthetics to the writing of > longer poetry. Comments welcome. > > By the way, wordplay on "low-ku," "noir-coup," or whatever, is another > mark of haiku poetasters. So are most poems about haiku. I went through this > stage, too. But I got over it. This is the kind of trivia I got over (from > the esteemed pen of Mr. Daniel Zimmerman): > > flag haiku > > one two three four five > six seven eight nine ten e- > leven twelve thirteen > > A wee bit of reseach in haiku literature would reveal, by the way, that > haiku nearly never have titles, and there are important reasons why. As > Charlie Rossiter says, do some *serious* research and study of the genre > before proclaiming work as being haiku, let alone saying that you "don't > think there can be a haiku better" than the example by Paul Violi. As strong > as Violi's poem may be as poetry, and as clear as its virtues are (I could > see myself publishing it too), it has nearly nothing to do with haiku, and > is easily torn apart for failing as haiku. > > And a quick, respectful message to George (Bowering): You say, "Best US > haiku I know is Ron Padgett's:" > > Seven syllables > Eleven syllables > Seven syllables > > I have to hope your tongue is in your cheek. But if so, why? Why promote a > poem that doesn't take the genre seriously? If you mean to damn all American > poems by favouring such an obviously clueless one, then that seems to > suggest an unfamiliarity with the best haiku written in English. And if your > tongue's not in your cheek, why would you say this is a good haiku? Have you > read Cor van den Heuvel's *Haiku Anthology*, just for starters? > > For a slightly dated annotated list of recommended books on haiku, visit > http://mensaww.org/HaikuBooks.htm. > > Chris Stroffolino also writes that one of the "shorthand staples of early > 20th c.---eliot's objective > correlative? or no ideas but in things?" . . . "seems to distort/reduce > too the haiku suggestiveness." > > I would answer by saying this: Because haiku -- perhaps more than any > other poetry (because it's so short) -- relies on the emotive power behind > things, the notion of the objective correlative increases its suggestiveness > rather than distort or reduce it. We have an immediate reaction to the word > chair that's different, say, than our reaction to the word soup. And think, > too, of how we react differently to "easy chair" compared with "electric > chair." I'm just naming things with these examples, but these objects > correlate to immediate emotions or feelings, or connotations and > associations. Even a "stone" will carry some feeling for us when we read the > word in a poem, though of course the nature of that feeling may vary from > person to person. There's more to the concept of the objective correlative > than just this, of course, but haiku relies on the emotive power of things > perhaps more strongly than other poetry. To the extent that haiku is mostly > objective, focusing on nouns a > nd things such as they are (yet presented in such a way to imply a > relationship and an intuitive feeling), haiku strongly rely on the emotive > weight associated with each thing named in the poem. Certainly there are > subjective or nonliteral elements in some haiku (such as in Shiki's poem, > "for me going / for you staying / two autumns," or Basho's haiku about the > cicada's cries piercing the rocks), but not every haiku is or needs to be > strictly objective. It's a matter of finding balance, within each poem, and > in a particular poem relative to other poems. They are examples of > controlling the objectivity and subjectivity, and typically, where there's a > subjective element in haiku, it's usually in the context of something that's > clearly objective -- something that grounds the rest of the poem so the > subjective element isn't overpowering. > > Sure, you can do ____ (whatever: fill in the blank) in a haiku -- but not > necessarily often (heck, even have a title once in a very rare while, if it > somehow really needs it). Haiku is not a strict set of rules (don't think > that I think it is). Rather, haiku is a field of multiple targets, and a > good haiku will hit multiple targets at once, but not necessarily all of > them -- and occasionally miss one or two of them (on purpose) that certain > people might feel are more important and should never be missed. That's why > it's good to see haiku as a continuum with other kinds of poetry. Poetry > first, labels later (if at all). But, I hasten to say, as soon as you label > something as haiku, it had better be a proper understanding of haiku that > you mean -- and for too many folks, that's not the case. > > Michael > P.S. To discuss another poem offered here, from Eric ( > mr.eric.yost@GMAIL.COM): > > Golf Haiku > > Robin watches drive, > waits until I leave the tee, > probes divot for worm. > > Here are some problems with this "haiku" (which I would hope would be > among the 1,000 haiku one writes before trying to publish any -- a task that > haiku writer Jim Kacian set for himself): > > 1. It has a title, which haiku avoid (and in this case, the title is > redundant -- we know from the poem that it's about golf, and we don't need > to be condescended to and be told it's a haiku; in other "haiku" that have > titles, the title is a sort of cheating -- adding a fourth line). > 2. It drops natural articles in the first and third lines (a robin, a/my > drive, the divot). Paul O. Williams, writing in *The Nick of Time: Essays on > Haiku Aeshetics*, calls this tontoism. It arises when a person is > insufficiently accomplished at crafting the poem to make it properly fit a > form (if they wish to follow a prescribed syllable count), or if they think > somehow that it's "better" simply to be briefer (if they're not following a > set form). Ted Kooser has written that a good poem is like looking at > tropical fish through the bottom of a glass-bottom boat, and that you don't > want things to clatter down onto the glass as you look, or see smudges on > the glass, and thus make you aware of where you're looking from. Rather, you > want to be totally absorbed in what you're seeing, to experience IT as much > as possible. As soon as you resort to tontoism, you show the apparatus, the > scaffolding, and also reveal that following an arbitrary syllable count like > an obedient school bo > y is more important than crafting good content. (Let form be an extension > of content!) The words of a good poem should be as invisible as possible, > letting you feel the meaning or experience the image as sharply as possible > -- this is why haiku is sometimes called the "wordless poem" (Alan Watts; > Eric Amann). My goodness, the haiku crime of tontoism should be punishable > by a lifetime of having to listen to Rod McKuen poetry speeded up to > chipmunk speed. That's such a basic matter of crafting. I would have > expected better on this discussion list. > 3. It is presented as a sentence (ending with a period, even), and is > oblivious to the fragmentary nature of haiku. Starting with a lowercase > letter in this case would also prevent the misreading of "Robin" as a > person's name, which muddies the interpretation of this poem. The lopping > off of the article ("a robin") is another contributor to the wooliness in > this line. > 4. It lacks the two-part juxtapositional structure that focuses our > attention on a specific emotion that we can figure out (the poem lacks > implication and reverberation). Haiku, too, are usually not narrative like > this one, and are usually best if they avoid a cause/effect presentation. > 5. The poem is choppy and awkward. > 6. Because of the worm, I suppose we can imagine it's spring or summer > (I'd have to check the history of "worm" as a seasonal indicator), but the > seasonal element isn't strong here. (That doesn't bother me too much, > though.) A strong seasonal element, however, can greatly deepen the effect > of a poem by tapping into seasonal or natural archetypes, and alluding to > other poems about the same subject (allusion and a technique known as > honkodori is common in Japanese poetry). > 7. The biggest problem is that this is a so-what poem. There's no > implication, nothing for the reader to figure out. I like the image well > enough -- that a bird is waiting for your divot to look for worms (that's > either a smart robin, or a lazy one). But that's all there is too it, and > it's obfuscated by the awkward and unnecessary syntax, all in the name of > 5-7-5. But something more needs to be left out, to be implied. Consider, for > example, this poem: "an old woolen sweater / taken yarn by yarn / from the > snowbank." When students in my classes figure out that it's about a bird > taking bits of yarn for a nest in spring, their faces light up with > realization -- they "get it." Yet no bird is mentioned. Most of the time, if > a haiku doesn't leave something out to be "got," then it fails as a haiku, > no matter how well the objectivity or subjectivity is controlled, whether it > employs a kigo or kireji equivalent, or shasei (sketching form life) > techniques -- and more. And through al > l of this, of course, it's irrelevant whether the poem is 5-7-5 or not. > > On the good side, this poem is objective, but the POINT of using > objectivity is to create some sort of subjective reaction -- an emotional or > intuitive moment. And this poem feels too shallow in its use of objective > description to have created enough of a leap, overtones, or reverberation. > It's got a greater starter image for a haiku, that haiku don't end with > images, they start with them. > > > > -----Original Message----- > Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 07:12:09 +0000 > From: Barry Schwabsky > Subject: Re: haiku > > I don't think there can a haiku better than this one by Paul Violi, which > I am > proud to have published in a magazine I co-edited many years ago. I don't > believe it follows a single one of your rules, nor does it follow the > conventional syllable count, but it blows my mind: > > Don't look at my face. > No change, just large bills. > One wrong move will be your last. > ________________________________________________________________________ > Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security > tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, > free AOL Mail and more. > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 21:14:25 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Coffey Subject: Re: haiku In-Reply-To: <67dec99a0702091636s812d96bi153a983d4ecea169@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I think the writer is reacting to Bowering's and Schwabsky's lionizing of Padgett's and Violi's poems, respectively, and not the poems themeselves. I agree with Vincent that morphing is necessary, but MDW makes a good point, one that shouldn't have to be made. Know the history of the poem, its implications and subtleties, and THEN subvert it. On 2/9/07, Davey Volner wrote: > I trust the writer understands that both Violi's haiku and Padgett's are > satirical? > > On 2/9/07, Michael Dylan Welch wrote: > > > > If Paul Violi's "Don't look at my face. / No change, just large bills. / > > One wrong move will be your last." poem blows your mind, wonderful. It's > > quite arresting, I agree. But it's not because it has anything to do with > > haiku (except for the obvious overlap with haiku of having brevity, which > > gives the poem focus). So the problem here is either you or the poet > > labelling it as a haiku. For an overview of reasons why it has little to do > > with haiku, see my online essay "Becoming a Haiku Poet" ( > > http://www.haikuworld.org/begin/mdwelch.apr2003.html). Or see the 2005 > > edition of *Poet's Market* (Writer's Digest Books, 2004), in which I have an > > essay on haiku and applying its techniques and aesthetics to the writing of > > longer poetry. Comments welcome. > > > > By the way, wordplay on "low-ku," "noir-coup," or whatever, is another > > mark of haiku poetasters. So are most poems about haiku. I went through this > > stage, too. But I got over it. This is the kind of trivia I got over (from > > the esteemed pen of Mr. Daniel Zimmerman): > > > > flag haiku > > > > one two three four five > > six seven eight nine ten e- > > leven twelve thirteen > > > > A wee bit of reseach in haiku literature would reveal, by the way, that > > haiku nearly never have titles, and there are important reasons why. As > > Charlie Rossiter says, do some *serious* research and study of the genre > > before proclaiming work as being haiku, let alone saying that you "don't > > think there can be a haiku better" than the example by Paul Violi. As strong > > as Violi's poem may be as poetry, and as clear as its virtues are (I could > > see myself publishing it too), it has nearly nothing to do with haiku, and > > is easily torn apart for failing as haiku. > > > > And a quick, respectful message to George (Bowering): You say, "Best US > > haiku I know is Ron Padgett's:" > > > > Seven syllables > > Eleven syllables > > Seven syllables > > > > I have to hope your tongue is in your cheek. But if so, why? Why promote a > > poem that doesn't take the genre seriously? If you mean to damn all American > > poems by favouring such an obviously clueless one, then that seems to > > suggest an unfamiliarity with the best haiku written in English. And if your > > tongue's not in your cheek, why would you say this is a good haiku? Have you > > read Cor van den Heuvel's *Haiku Anthology*, just for starters? > > > > For a slightly dated annotated list of recommended books on haiku, visit > > http://mensaww.org/HaikuBooks.htm. > > > > Chris Stroffolino also writes that one of the "shorthand staples of early > > 20th c.---eliot's objective > > correlative? or no ideas but in things?" . . . "seems to distort/reduce > > too the haiku suggestiveness." > > > > I would answer by saying this: Because haiku -- perhaps more than any > > other poetry (because it's so short) -- relies on the emotive power behind > > things, the notion of the objective correlative increases its suggestiveness > > rather than distort or reduce it. We have an immediate reaction to the word > > chair that's different, say, than our reaction to the word soup. And think, > > too, of how we react differently to "easy chair" compared with "electric > > chair." I'm just naming things with these examples, but these objects > > correlate to immediate emotions or feelings, or connotations and > > associations. Even a "stone" will carry some feeling for us when we read the > > word in a poem, though of course the nature of that feeling may vary from > > person to person. There's more to the concept of the objective correlative > > than just this, of course, but haiku relies on the emotive power of things > > perhaps more strongly than other poetry. To the extent that haiku is mostly > > objective, focusing on nouns a > > nd things such as they are (yet presented in such a way to imply a > > relationship and an intuitive feeling), haiku strongly rely on the emotive > > weight associated with each thing named in the poem. Certainly there are > > subjective or nonliteral elements in some haiku (such as in Shiki's poem, > > "for me going / for you staying / two autumns," or Basho's haiku about the > > cicada's cries piercing the rocks), but not every haiku is or needs to be > > strictly objective. It's a matter of finding balance, within each poem, and > > in a particular poem relative to other poems. They are examples of > > controlling the objectivity and subjectivity, and typically, where there's a > > subjective element in haiku, it's usually in the context of something that's > > clearly objective -- something that grounds the rest of the poem so the > > subjective element isn't overpowering. > > > > Sure, you can do ____ (whatever: fill in the blank) in a haiku -- but not > > necessarily often (heck, even have a title once in a very rare while, if it > > somehow really needs it). Haiku is not a strict set of rules (don't think > > that I think it is). Rather, haiku is a field of multiple targets, and a > > good haiku will hit multiple targets at once, but not necessarily all of > > them -- and occasionally miss one or two of them (on purpose) that certain > > people might feel are more important and should never be missed. That's why > > it's good to see haiku as a continuum with other kinds of poetry. Poetry > > first, labels later (if at all). But, I hasten to say, as soon as you label > > something as haiku, it had better be a proper understanding of haiku that > > you mean -- and for too many folks, that's not the case. > > > > Michael > > P.S. To discuss another poem offered here, from Eric ( > > mr.eric.yost@GMAIL.COM): > > > > Golf Haiku > > > > Robin watches drive, > > waits until I leave the tee, > > probes divot for worm. > > > > Here are some problems with this "haiku" (which I would hope would be > > among the 1,000 haiku one writes before trying to publish any -- a task that > > haiku writer Jim Kacian set for himself): > > > > 1. It has a title, which haiku avoid (and in this case, the title is > > redundant -- we know from the poem that it's about golf, and we don't need > > to be condescended to and be told it's a haiku; in other "haiku" that have > > titles, the title is a sort of cheating -- adding a fourth line). > > 2. It drops natural articles in the first and third lines (a robin, a/my > > drive, the divot). Paul O. Williams, writing in *The Nick of Time: Essays on > > Haiku Aeshetics*, calls this tontoism. It arises when a person is > > insufficiently accomplished at crafting the poem to make it properly fit a > > form (if they wish to follow a prescribed syllable count), or if they think > > somehow that it's "better" simply to be briefer (if they're not following a > > set form). Ted Kooser has written that a good poem is like looking at > > tropical fish through the bottom of a glass-bottom boat, and that you don't > > want things to clatter down onto the glass as you look, or see smudges on > > the glass, and thus make you aware of where you're looking from. Rather, you > > want to be totally absorbed in what you're seeing, to experience IT as much > > as possible. As soon as you resort to tontoism, you show the apparatus, the > > scaffolding, and also reveal that following an arbitrary syllable count like > > an obedient school bo > > y is more important than crafting good content. (Let form be an extension > > of content!) The words of a good poem should be as invisible as possible, > > letting you feel the meaning or experience the image as sharply as possible > > -- this is why haiku is sometimes called the "wordless poem" (Alan Watts; > > Eric Amann). My goodness, the haiku crime of tontoism should be punishable > > by a lifetime of having to listen to Rod McKuen poetry speeded up to > > chipmunk speed. That's such a basic matter of crafting. I would have > > expected better on this discussion list. > > 3. It is presented as a sentence (ending with a period, even), and is > > oblivious to the fragmentary nature of haiku. Starting with a lowercase > > letter in this case would also prevent the misreading of "Robin" as a > > person's name, which muddies the interpretation of this poem. The lopping > > off of the article ("a robin") is another contributor to the wooliness in > > this line. > > 4. It lacks the two-part juxtapositional structure that focuses our > > attention on a specific emotion that we can figure out (the poem lacks > > implication and reverberation). Haiku, too, are usually not narrative like > > this one, and are usually best if they avoid a cause/effect presentation. > > 5. The poem is choppy and awkward. > > 6. Because of the worm, I suppose we can imagine it's spring or summer > > (I'd have to check the history of "worm" as a seasonal indicator), but the > > seasonal element isn't strong here. (That doesn't bother me too much, > > though.) A strong seasonal element, however, can greatly deepen the effect > > of a poem by tapping into seasonal or natural archetypes, and alluding to > > other poems about the same subject (allusion and a technique known as > > honkodori is common in Japanese poetry). > > 7. The biggest problem is that this is a so-what poem. There's no > > implication, nothing for the reader to figure out. I like the image well > > enough -- that a bird is waiting for your divot to look for worms (that's > > either a smart robin, or a lazy one). But that's all there is too it, and > > it's obfuscated by the awkward and unnecessary syntax, all in the name of > > 5-7-5. But something more needs to be left out, to be implied. Consider, for > > example, this poem: "an old woolen sweater / taken yarn by yarn / from the > > snowbank." When students in my classes figure out that it's about a bird > > taking bits of yarn for a nest in spring, their faces light up with > > realization -- they "get it." Yet no bird is mentioned. Most of the time, if > > a haiku doesn't leave something out to be "got," then it fails as a haiku, > > no matter how well the objectivity or subjectivity is controlled, whether it > > employs a kigo or kireji equivalent, or shasei (sketching form life) > > techniques -- and more. And through al > > l of this, of course, it's irrelevant whether the poem is 5-7-5 or not. > > > > On the good side, this poem is objective, but the POINT of using > > objectivity is to create some sort of subjective reaction -- an emotional or > > intuitive moment. And this poem feels too shallow in its use of objective > > description to have created enough of a leap, overtones, or reverberation. > > It's got a greater starter image for a haiku, that haiku don't end with > > images, they start with them. > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 07:12:09 +0000 > > From: Barry Schwabsky > > Subject: Re: haiku > > > > I don't think there can a haiku better than this one by Paul Violi, which > > I am > > proud to have published in a magazine I co-edited many years ago. I don't > > believe it follows a single one of your rules, nor does it follow the > > conventional syllable count, but it blows my mind: > > > > Don't look at my face. > > No change, just large bills. > > One wrong move will be your last. > > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security > > tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, > > free AOL Mail and more. > > > -- http://hyperhypo.org/blog http://www.pftborder.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 21:08:35 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: RIP Anna Nicole - The end of an era In-Reply-To: <750c78460702091216q409980a8w9e12bd1871a72aa8@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i agree, i thought belz's poem was pretty okay. Dan Coffey wrote: > No. I think Belz did an honest and fair job of poetically eulogizing ANS. > > On 2/9/07, David A. Kirschenbaum wrote: > >> So, has the poetics list now devolved to us making fun of dead people? >> > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 21:02:07 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Haiku dumbness / snobbishness In-Reply-To: <8C91AB78DF6861C-D08-28C5@WEBMAIL-MA21.sysops.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, i think the real issue is one of investment and value. You're a person who has devoted a considerable amount of time and energy into a poetic form, and as such that form has a value for you that it simply doesn't for me, as a person who generally is a little bit snide towards the idea of form from the get go. I think where the disconnect takes place is that you're mistaking a lack of interest in the minutiae of something that you say is complex (i'm not saying it's not complex, just that i don't know enough about it to be able to affirm or deny) for naivete, which is a little bit insulting. I can maybe illustrate with my own experience writing haiku. Like most people at some point in the third or fourth grade, my language arts teacher introduced the idea of syllables, as well as the idea of poems that don't possess end rhyme, by talking about these short little japanese poems called haiku that have a 5-7-5 syllable pattern. I think for most people that's the beginning and end of the interest in the form. I know that it has been largely for me. I've written all manner of poems in a 5-7-5 formula, and all manner of people have told me that that's not really haiku, to which my only response can be, okay, so what? so what if they're not haiku? if i don't know what the real purpose of a haiku is, and what the real goal is, and am in fact trying to achieve some other goal and mistakenly calling it haiku, i'm not being naive, i'm just using the wrong word. So i stop calling it haiku, and we can go about our lives happily enough never discussing it again. However, there's something very peculiar about in particular the haiku booster that really rubs me the wrong way. almost like some people take a sort of obscene pleasure in "correcting" the mistake of the less informed. at some point it becaomes as trivial a matter as whether kirk or picard were a superior starship captain. so what i'm saying is, i think what in your messages has gotten my back up a bit is the way it's expressed in such an accusatory and aloof manner, as if haiku is the only way to write a short poem, and that if one is working at the length of haiku there can't possibly be a goal higher than in realizing the conventions of haiku. being mainly an anti formalist and against the idea of poetic form that can't be expressed in a number of words fewer than the form permits the poem, i'm skeptical of such claims from the outset. So it takes some convincing for me to buy in to the idea that there really is something in this constructed form which genuinely warrants societies being dedicated to it, magazines devoted to it, and books written exploring teh depth of it. But instead of convincing, all i seem to get from people like you who do think there is that kind of value in this particular set of conventions is a sort of arrogant browbeating about how i don't know anything about the subject and that if i want to talk about it, i really need to do my homework. Well fine, i say, i hate homework so lets just not talk about it. Let teh haiku snob wallow in his penny-ante beat, and i'll roll my eyes and move on to something that i think genuinely is of value. If that makes sense, and I promise you i'm not trying to be adversarial, just trying to sort through the array of emotions and their instigations in the thread about haiku to date that prompted me to dispatch a snarky email. If you really want my opinion, this last email has gone a longer way towards getting me interested in haiku than your previous emails which seemed largely concerned with showing how some poems claiming to be haiku are not in fact. What i'd really like to see is for defenders of the form to make a concerted effort to talk about what it is that they like about it. What is it about the seasonal words and juxtapositions that you find in haiku that make them so essential and raises this above other forms like, for example, an aubade? I think maybe you'd get farther with snide jackasses like me if you focussed more on the positive argument for real haiku rather than the negative argument against fake haiku. Because i generally don't find things that are defined primarily by contrast to things which they are not to be particularly interesting. birds are cool because they have wings, not because they don't have gills, y'know? All of that having been said, i want to let you know that I really appreciate the sincerity and tone of your last email, and I want you to know that by it, you've aroused a curiosity in me about the form that did not exist when i snarkily suggest that haiku be relegated to mystery cults. There's very little as effective as the sincere expression of passion for a topic to make another person sympathetic to investigating it. I've ordered Gurga's book, and am looking forward to reading it. I don't know if i'll become a haiku fanatic, or even if i'll ever try to write a haiku, but you've swayed me to thinking that maybe there's something i'm missing out on, and that's a tactic that is very effective with me. Michael Dylan Welch wrote: > I don't think something has to be esoteric to be authentic. That's certainly the case for haiku (and here I note that the theme for the 2005 Haiku North America conference was "authenticity"!). In fact, if a haiku is too esoteric, it tends to *lose* authenticity for many people because they can't relate to it, or even stretch themselves to do so. Better, I think, to be esoteric (if you want) while also still being sufficiently authentic and accessible. Leaf through the pages of *Modern Haiku* magazine, or Cor van den Heuvel's *The Haiku Anthology*, and over and over you will find poems that strike a fine balance between the esoteric (alienating in the extreme) and the immediate (to easy and comfortable in the extreme). It's a balance between the universal and the particular, and a balance between the expression of the self and the effective communication of that self to someone else. > > More to the point here, Jason (re your message below), it seems I or others come off as haiku snobs to you. Forgive me for such snobbishness, if you can. And then I hope you and anyone else who feels the same way can still take a look at the ISSUE itself to see whether you understand it fully or not. I guess I am wagging a finger here, aren't I? And I'm obviously in earnest. But there are problems that deserve to have fingers wagged at them. Indeed, tell me, what else are we who write literary haiku supposed to do? I don't want to be snobbish about haiku -- in fact, one of the virtues of haiku is how accessible it can be, in that it focuses on everyday subjects of personal immediacy (Issa wrote about the flies in his house, Buson about his dead wife's comb underfoot). Yet what should we do if we see haiku being so widely misunderstood, even just in the mainstream poetry community (never mind the general public)? What, pray tell, am I being dumb about (to refer to the end o f y > our message)? > > Michael > > P.S. Some of you might be interested in a book review I wrote for Modern Haiku that's online at http://www.modernhaiku.org/bookreviews/UnsweptPath2006.html. I discuss the issue of influences in haiku, and the range of possibilities in the genre, in particular regarding the anthology *Unswept Path*, from White Pine Press -- an excellent yet flawed book. In this review, I deride the notion of a secret handshake for haiku poets. A secret society or the ghettoization of haiku is not what I think is good for anybody, hence this discussion. These are tricky matters of education, and unfortunately it seems to need to begin with the implication that person A is educated, and person B is not. It need never be brought up, except that, in this case person B seems to be claiming, even if not overtly, to be "educated" about haiku, when in fact that's demonstrably not the case. I'm interested in deghettoizing haiku here, and that means, I think, some education for those outside the haik u g > hetto, as well as some education for those in the ghetto. A dialog between the two will do worlds of good. That's what I'm after. Telling me to keep my haiku to myself in a secret society isn't going to help. So how do we curb such haiku "snobbishness" and address the real issue at hand? > > > -----Original Message----- > Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 20:47:42 -0800 > From: Jason Quackenbush > Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match > > but if we did that, then folks wouldn't be able to be snobby about authenticity. > because we all know that authenticity is what's really important. and > in order for anything to be authentic, it must first be esoteric. i think what > should be done is that all the books about haiku, in particular lee > gurga's that keeps getting recommended, ought to be entrusted to secret > societies and all publicly available copies should be burnt. and then everyone > who thinks it's important that a haiku be "real" can join the secret societies, > and the rest of us can get on with writing short poems. i'll even > promise to never call a short poem of mine a haiku so long as the haiku-snobs > will promise to point out that it isn't really a haiku. then we can all > be at peace with one another in a sort of zen state of mutually acknowledged > dumbness. > ________________________________________________________________________ > Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 23:23:02 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: haiku In-Reply-To: <750c78460702091914h5400f3dah6b3efccfae6b3954@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" But Dan, how would you *know* whether a *poet* knows "the history of the poem, its implications" etc.? -- unless of course you feel you can glean same from a reading of (e.g.) the poem itself? Stephen Vincent makes the proper point, in any case, even against MDW's reasoned argument in favor of such knowledge. This is, after all, a list devoted to discussing "those directions in poetry that are committed to innovations, renovations, and investigations of form and/or/as content, to the questioning of received forms and styles, and to the creation of the otherwise unimagined, untried, unexpected, improbable, and impossible." (I quote from the Poetics List Welcome Message.) The question before us is a typical question, really, applicable to haiku or to any rec'd form: at what point is taking liberties deemed acceptable, or unacceptable, and why? There are surely histories of poetry, in the U.S. (e.g.), in the 20th century (e.g.) -- a history of resistance to received forms -- to suggest that some (of us) will be inclined to mess with rec'd forms, with (or without) the possession of such knowledge. Whether the results are successful, well -- they're not not successful simply b/c they've deviated from the norm. If you think you can read a given example and suss out whether the poet has *not* acted with sufficient knowledge, very well then. But that's a mite tougher to do, and to argue, than simply to compare and contrast with what the formal rules might say such items ought to attempt. Pardon me, but simple deviation from the norm does not (as I see it) an unsuccessful poem make, haiku or otherwise, nor does it suggest a lack of associated knowledge. That said, I opt for as much knowledge of the formal rules as one has a stomach for. At any rate, I daresay it will require a much more sophisticated approach to form generally to persuade most on this list not to mess with rec'd form. Where I part company with MDW is in my assertion that haiku are no different, finally, than sonnets (or any other poetic form) insofar as the inherent legitimacy of altering associated constraints. Again, how is one to *prove* that one has the knowledge sufficient to being granted license (poetic license) to alter form? Or, again, are we saying that all such knowledge will be evident in the poetry itself? One way to almost guarantee that nobody messes with form is to argue that a given poem must exhibit evidence of such knowledge. I hope you all see the conundrum at work here. So, I'd like someone to explain to me -- seriously now -- why some of the haiku posted here DON'T work when understood as "questioning of received forms and styles" (see above). Or even better, how it is that some of the haiku posted here, lionized or no, do *not* reveal sufficient knowledge of haiku. Unless the problem is simply one of naming -- i.e., that we ought not to call a haiku that which merely resembles same -- then a judgment is being made as to how best to approach this matter of poetic form, and resistance thereto. That's not pertinent simply to haiku -- that strikes at the heart of what a list like this is supposed to be about. Best, Joe >I think the writer is reacting to Bowering's and Schwabsky's lionizing >of Padgett's and Violi's poems, respectively, and not the poems >themeselves. > >I agree with Vincent that morphing is necessary, but MDW makes a good >point, one that shouldn't have to be made. Know the history of the >poem, its implications and subtleties, and THEN subvert it. > >On 2/9/07, Davey Volner wrote: >>I trust the writer understands that both Violi's haiku and Padgett's are >>satirical? >> >>On 2/9/07, Michael Dylan Welch wrote: >>> >>> If Paul Violi's "Don't look at my face. / No change, just large bills. / >>> One wrong move will be your last." poem blows your mind, wonderful. It's >>> quite arresting, I agree. But it's not because it has anything to do with >>> haiku (except for the obvious overlap with haiku of having brevity, which >> > gives the poem focus). So the problem here is either you or the poet >>> labelling it as a haiku. For an overview of reasons why it has little to do >>> with haiku, see my online essay "Becoming a Haiku Poet" ( >> > http://www.haikuworld.org/begin/mdwelch.apr2003.html). Or see the 2005 >>> edition of *Poet's Market* (Writer's Digest Books, 2004), in >>>which I have an >>> essay on haiku and applying its techniques and aesthetics to the writing of >>> longer poetry. Comments welcome. >>> >>> By the way, wordplay on "low-ku," "noir-coup," or whatever, is another >>> mark of haiku poetasters. So are most poems about haiku. I went >>>through this >>> stage, too. But I got over it. This is the kind of trivia I got over (from >>> the esteemed pen of Mr. Daniel Zimmerman): >>> >>> flag haiku >>> >>> one two three four five >>> six seven eight nine ten e- >>> leven twelve thirteen >>> >>> A wee bit of reseach in haiku literature would reveal, by the way, that >>> haiku nearly never have titles, and there are important reasons why. As >>> Charlie Rossiter says, do some *serious* research and study of the genre >>> before proclaiming work as being haiku, let alone saying that you "don't >>> think there can be a haiku better" than the example by Paul >>>Violi. As strong >>> as Violi's poem may be as poetry, and as clear as its virtues are (I could >>> see myself publishing it too), it has nearly nothing to do with haiku, and >>> is easily torn apart for failing as haiku. >>> >>> And a quick, respectful message to George (Bowering): You say, "Best US >>> haiku I know is Ron Padgett's:" >>> >>> Seven syllables >>> Eleven syllables >>> Seven syllables >>> >>> I have to hope your tongue is in your cheek. But if so, why? Why promote a >>> poem that doesn't take the genre seriously? If you mean to damn >>>all American >>> poems by favouring such an obviously clueless one, then that seems to >>> suggest an unfamiliarity with the best haiku written in English. >>>And if your >>> tongue's not in your cheek, why would you say this is a good >>>haiku? Have you >>> read Cor van den Heuvel's *Haiku Anthology*, just for starters? >>> >>> For a slightly dated annotated list of recommended books on haiku, visit >>> http://mensaww.org/HaikuBooks.htm. >>> >>> Chris Stroffolino also writes that one of the "shorthand staples of early >>> 20th c.---eliot's objective >>> correlative? or no ideas but in things?" . . . "seems to distort/reduce >>> too the haiku suggestiveness." >>> >>> I would answer by saying this: Because haiku -- perhaps more than any >>> other poetry (because it's so short) -- relies on the emotive power behind >>> things, the notion of the objective correlative increases its >>>suggestiveness >>> rather than distort or reduce it. We have an immediate reaction to the word >>> chair that's different, say, than our reaction to the word soup. And think, >>> too, of how we react differently to "easy chair" compared with "electric >>> chair." I'm just naming things with these examples, but these objects >>> correlate to immediate emotions or feelings, or connotations and >>> associations. Even a "stone" will carry some feeling for us when >>>we read the >>> word in a poem, though of course the nature of that feeling may vary from >>> person to person. There's more to the concept of the objective correlative >>> than just this, of course, but haiku relies on the emotive power of things >>> perhaps more strongly than other poetry. To the extent that haiku is mostly >>> objective, focusing on nouns a >>> nd things such as they are (yet presented in such a way to imply a >>> relationship and an intuitive feeling), haiku strongly rely on the emotive >>> weight associated with each thing named in the poem. Certainly there are >>> subjective or nonliteral elements in some haiku (such as in Shiki's poem, >>> "for me going / for you staying / two autumns," or Basho's haiku about the >>> cicada's cries piercing the rocks), but not every haiku is or needs to be >>> strictly objective. It's a matter of finding balance, within each poem, and >>> in a particular poem relative to other poems. They are examples of >>> controlling the objectivity and subjectivity, and typically, >>>where there's a >>> subjective element in haiku, it's usually in the context of >>>something that's >> > clearly objective -- something that grounds the rest of the poem so the >>> subjective element isn't overpowering. >>> >>> Sure, you can do ____ (whatever: fill in the blank) in a haiku -- but not >> > necessarily often (heck, even have a title once in a very rare >>while, if it >>> somehow really needs it). Haiku is not a strict set of rules (don't think >>> that I think it is). Rather, haiku is a field of multiple targets, and a >>> good haiku will hit multiple targets at once, but not necessarily all of >>> them -- and occasionally miss one or two of them (on purpose) that certain >>> people might feel are more important and should never be missed. That's why >>> it's good to see haiku as a continuum with other kinds of poetry. Poetry >>> first, labels later (if at all). But, I hasten to say, as soon as you label >>> something as haiku, it had better be a proper understanding of haiku that >>> you mean -- and for too many folks, that's not the case. >>> >>> Michael >>> P.S. To discuss another poem offered here, from Eric ( >>> mr.eric.yost@GMAIL.COM): >>> >>> Golf Haiku >>> >>> Robin watches drive, >>> waits until I leave the tee, >>> probes divot for worm. >>> >>> Here are some problems with this "haiku" (which I would hope would be >>> among the 1,000 haiku one writes before trying to publish any -- >>>a task that >>> haiku writer Jim Kacian set for himself): >>> >>> 1. It has a title, which haiku avoid (and in this case, the title is >>> redundant -- we know from the poem that it's about golf, and we don't need >>> to be condescended to and be told it's a haiku; in other "haiku" that have >>> titles, the title is a sort of cheating -- adding a fourth line). >>> 2. It drops natural articles in the first and third lines (a robin, a/my >>> drive, the divot). Paul O. Williams, writing in *The Nick of >>>Time: Essays on >>> Haiku Aeshetics*, calls this tontoism. It arises when a person is >>> insufficiently accomplished at crafting the poem to make it properly fit a >>> form (if they wish to follow a prescribed syllable count), or if they think >>> somehow that it's "better" simply to be briefer (if they're not following a >>> set form). Ted Kooser has written that a good poem is like looking at >>> tropical fish through the bottom of a glass-bottom boat, and that you don't >>> want things to clatter down onto the glass as you look, or see smudges on >>> the glass, and thus make you aware of where you're looking from. >>>Rather, you >>> want to be totally absorbed in what you're seeing, to experience IT as much >>> as possible. As soon as you resort to tontoism, you show the apparatus, the >>> scaffolding, and also reveal that following an arbitrary syllable >>>count like >>> an obedient school bo >>> y is more important than crafting good content. (Let form be an extension >>> of content!) The words of a good poem should be as invisible as possible, >>> letting you feel the meaning or experience the image as sharply as possible >>> -- this is why haiku is sometimes called the "wordless poem" (Alan Watts; >>> Eric Amann). My goodness, the haiku crime of tontoism should be punishable >>> by a lifetime of having to listen to Rod McKuen poetry speeded up to >>> chipmunk speed. That's such a basic matter of crafting. I would have >>> expected better on this discussion list. >>> 3. It is presented as a sentence (ending with a period, even), and is >>> oblivious to the fragmentary nature of haiku. Starting with a lowercase >>> letter in this case would also prevent the misreading of "Robin" as a >>> person's name, which muddies the interpretation of this poem. The lopping >>> off of the article ("a robin") is another contributor to the wooliness in >>> this line. >>> 4. It lacks the two-part juxtapositional structure that focuses our >>> attention on a specific emotion that we can figure out (the poem lacks >>> implication and reverberation). Haiku, too, are usually not narrative like >>> this one, and are usually best if they avoid a cause/effect presentation. >>> 5. The poem is choppy and awkward. >>> 6. Because of the worm, I suppose we can imagine it's spring or summer >>> (I'd have to check the history of "worm" as a seasonal indicator), but the >>> seasonal element isn't strong here. (That doesn't bother me too much, >> > though.) A strong seasonal element, however, can greatly deepen the effect >>> of a poem by tapping into seasonal or natural archetypes, and alluding to >> > other poems about the same subject (allusion and a technique known as >>> honkodori is common in Japanese poetry). >>> 7. The biggest problem is that this is a so-what poem. There's no >>> implication, nothing for the reader to figure out. I like the image well >>> enough -- that a bird is waiting for your divot to look for worms (that's >>> either a smart robin, or a lazy one). But that's all there is too it, and >>> it's obfuscated by the awkward and unnecessary syntax, all in the name of >>> 5-7-5. But something more needs to be left out, to be implied. >>>Consider, for >>> example, this poem: "an old woolen sweater / taken yarn by yarn / from the >>> snowbank." When students in my classes figure out that it's about a bird >>> taking bits of yarn for a nest in spring, their faces light up with >>> realization -- they "get it." Yet no bird is mentioned. Most of >>>the time, if >>> a haiku doesn't leave something out to be "got," then it fails as a haiku, >>> no matter how well the objectivity or subjectivity is controlled, >>>whether it >>> employs a kigo or kireji equivalent, or shasei (sketching form life) >>> techniques -- and more. And through al >>> l of this, of course, it's irrelevant whether the poem is 5-7-5 or not. >>> >>> On the good side, this poem is objective, but the POINT of using >>> objectivity is to create some sort of subjective reaction -- an >>>emotional or >>> intuitive moment. And this poem feels too shallow in its use of objective >>> description to have created enough of a leap, overtones, or reverberation. >>> It's got a greater starter image for a haiku, that haiku don't end with >>> images, they start with them. >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 07:12:09 +0000 >>> From: Barry Schwabsky >>> Subject: Re: haiku >>> >>> I don't think there can a haiku better than this one by Paul Violi, which >>> I am >>> proud to have published in a magazine I co-edited many years ago. I don't >>> believe it follows a single one of your rules, nor does it follow the >>> conventional syllable count, but it blows my mind: >>> >>> Don't look at my face. >>> No change, just large bills. >>> One wrong move will be your last. >>> ________________________________________________________________________ >>> Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security >>> tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, >>> free AOL Mail and more. >>> >> > > >-- >http://hyperhypo.org/blog >http://www.pftborder.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 23:32:22 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charlie Rossiter Subject: haiku MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but anyone who knows haiku will tell you Violli's "poem" would never be seen as even a minimally passable haiku--it's got way too much narrative--haiku is not a mini-story in 3 lines. sorry, but that's how it is. you can still like that work as a 3 line poem if you like--but do you really like it as a poem or do you think it's a terribly clever way to do a bit of flash fiction in 3 lines. Poetry leaves room for the reader's imagination. One good thing about poetry is that we have countless editors out there with different taste so that someone who has no use for our work can be quickly forgotten as we forge onward looking for the editor who appreciates it. charlie -- "Poetry is good for you and so is the blues." Charlie said that. www.poetrypoetry.com where you hear poems read by poets who wrote them www.myspace.com/avantretro (hear avantretro poems) www.myspace.com/whiskeybucketbluesreview hear Charlie & Henry sing the blues www.myspace.com/jackthe71special hear Jack's original blues, blues rock & roots ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 23:37:23 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Laura Winton Subject: Re: Anna Nicole Smith MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was no fan of Anna Nicole Smith. I could never really figure out what she was famous *for* and saw her as more of the trend of people who are famous for being famous (not unlike Paris Hilton). But it seems that of late she had turned very quickly into something of a tragic figure and her death has made me rethink maybe how *long* she might have been a tragic figure without many people really knowing or recognizing it. So I do feel this sadness about it without knowing really why and at the same time I feel that to find out somehow perpetuates something about her and about our culture that I'm not sure I want to participate in further. Does that make any sense at all??? -----Original Message----- From: Alan Sondheim [mailto:sondheim@PANIX.COM] Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 3:36 PM Subject: Anna Nicole Smith She always fascinated me. Like Michael Jackson she broke a lot of taboos, she couldn't be placed. Her reality show was time slowed, almost milky. Howard K. Stern talked Ivy League, she murmured. Her son was there. I never knew what I was watching. I was constantly thrown off, in a way that her son's death was thrown off, and her death, now, is thrown off. She couldn't be placed: just as soon as you had it figured out, it transformed. I did guess that she and Howard were lovers; it was an odd subtext to the show. The photographs were sexy but meta-sexed; they didn't register properly, there was always something else going on. On another list people rave Anita Berber; there's a relationship. So poetics? Yes because this doesn't fit, it fractures, it breaks the discourse of the Law, however you want to define it. It's not only semantics, it's syntax that's broken down, just as reporters couldn't get "hold" of Michael Jackson. Then again, her life and death say something about our notions of beauty, a kind of inconceivable sexuality associated with it, the body can't keep up. What's incarnate falls apart; it's always already fallen apart. Finally, there are very real class (economic, geographic, educational) issues here; like Tonya Harding, she couldn't keep up (I remember TH's mother saying she couldn't raise an ice princess), or she kept up, on her own track, in her own way, which is something few of us get to do. This really was upsetting. - Alan ======================================================================= Work on YouTube, blog at http://nikuko.blogspot.com . Tel 718-813-3285. Webpage directory http://www.asondheim.org . Email: sondheim@panix.com. http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim for theory; also check WVU Zwiki, Google for recent. Write for info on books, cds, performance, dvds, etc. ============================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 01:03:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: Anna Nicole Smith In-Reply-To: <007401c74cd5$8ae90320$5ba39f04@D48XR971> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Our culture is perpetuated in any case, of course; what's important is what one does in relation to it; at best perhaps, one can take a critical and/or empathetic stand. I've heard the 'famous for being famous' in relation to a number of people, and I think in a way it begs the question. How can one open this short-circuit? For me, it's related to causation; one always looks for cause and effect - we're brought up to believe this. But causality is problematic, and the questions that Anna Nicole Smith raises may literally be unanswerable, and at the same time 'eternally' vulnerable (or susceptible) to theory - the descriptions, analyses, go on and on, just as Tonya Harding appeared in scholarly works as well as innumerable pop venues. One element of interest is that such analyses can be applied anywhere, anywhen; from Anna Nicole Smith to far more 'important' matters such as world conflicts, issues of fundamentalism, etc., (for me) to realize just how fragile causality (and its accompanying enunciation of specific effect/affect) is. In other words, I think it's fine not to have answers, ethical structures, etc., in one's life. I hope this makes sense - it's late at night. I do want to add that if you watched the reality show, the tragedy came through rather starkly; there were times literally couldn't watch. Finally, I really don't know what she's perpetuating (or was used to perpetuate); there are many other models for exaggerated sexuality for example. - Alan On Fri, 9 Feb 2007, Laura Winton wrote: > I was no fan of Anna Nicole Smith. I could never really figure out what she > was famous *for* and saw her as more of the trend of people who are famous > for being famous (not unlike Paris Hilton). But it seems that of late she > had turned very quickly into something of a tragic figure and her death has > made me rethink maybe how *long* she might have been a tragic figure without > many people really knowing or recognizing it. So I do feel this sadness > about it without knowing really why and at the same time I feel that to find > out somehow perpetuates something about her and about our culture that I'm > not sure I want to participate in further. > > Does that make any sense at all??? > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Alan Sondheim [mailto:sondheim@PANIX.COM] > Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 3:36 PM > Subject: Anna Nicole Smith > > She always fascinated me. Like Michael Jackson she broke a lot of taboos, > she couldn't be placed. Her reality show was time slowed, almost milky. > Howard K. Stern talked Ivy League, she murmured. Her son was there. I > never knew what I was watching. I was constantly thrown off, in a way that > her son's death was thrown off, and her death, now, is thrown off. > > She couldn't be placed: just as soon as you had it figured out, it > transformed. I did guess that she and Howard were lovers; it was an odd > subtext to the show. The photographs were sexy but meta-sexed; they didn't > register properly, there was always something else going on. On another > list people rave Anita Berber; there's a relationship. > > So poetics? Yes because this doesn't fit, it fractures, it breaks the > discourse of the Law, however you want to define it. It's not only > semantics, it's syntax that's broken down, just as reporters couldn't get > "hold" of Michael Jackson. > > Then again, her life and death say something about our notions of beauty, > a kind of inconceivable sexuality associated with it, the body can't keep > up. What's incarnate falls apart; it's always already fallen apart. > > Finally, there are very real class (economic, geographic, educational) > issues here; like Tonya Harding, she couldn't keep up (I remember TH's > mother saying she couldn't raise an ice princess), or she kept up, on > her own track, in her own way, which is something few of us get to do. > > This really was upsetting. > > - Alan > > ======================================================================= > Work on YouTube, blog at http://nikuko.blogspot.com . Tel 718-813-3285. > Webpage directory http://www.asondheim.org . Email: sondheim@panix.com. > http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim for theory; also check > WVU Zwiki, Google for recent. Write for info on books, cds, performance, > dvds, etc. ============================================================= > > ======================================================================= Work on YouTube, blog at http://nikuko.blogspot.com . Tel 718-813-3285. Webpage directory http://www.asondheim.org . Email: sondheim@panix.com. http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim for theory; also check WVU Zwiki, Google for recent. Write for info on books, cds, performance, dvds, etc. ============================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 01:04:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Real-time file access and organization - suggestions? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Real-time file access and organization - Here is the problem, as anyone following my work can attest - there's too much of it. I'll be at the Openport festival in Chicago the end of the month, doing a symposium, talk, two performances. So I'm attempting to organize files for the last, and it's difficult. I narrowed the video/ audio work to 900 files - and these are edited from the mass of my video/ audio work in general, running I think around 2500. I've placed the files in two folders, Performance 1 / 2. The names (titles) of the files convey nothing. I'm still naming from the film years when one produced "pieces" with such. So there are 900 names, and I forget what most of these things are. It's not even easy to tell by extension - there are sound files for example ending as .mp4, and some of the .mov are set for no framework and loop; these are most often converted .mp4 in disguise. The problem with .mp4 in performance - the compression uses a lot of CPU cycles; the result is that it's actually more difficult to run a number of parallel .mp4 files (which are quite small) than to run the same from the original very large .mov or .avi files. Thumbnails won't do - they would be too difficult to manage, would clutter up the screen, wouldn't handle audio. I think of code - G for Geneva, D for dance, GG for Gruyere, GA for Aletsch glacier work - but then the individual pieces are still left behind. I've tried brief 2-3 word descriptions in the titles, but that doesn't seem to help; there are variations, some of the work is indescribable in terms of a few words, and so forth. In any case, the directories have to be on the screen when I'm performing - that's the whole point of it - the ability to choose video/ audio on the fly. I'm not sure where to take this - memorizing indices, mnemonics ... The total number of still images that I work with (i.e. not family) is about 10000. The total of everything is probably around 14000. I swim in these. I need a directory structure for everything, coupled with a search engine; I need keywords and a way to delimit and present files during performance; I need a system which is easily understandable on the fly. I'm speaking of approximately 200 gigabytes of material here. I've been sitting going through file after file; it's a real impossibility! If the equipment holds up (I've been having difficulties with Quicktime retaining its preferences which are critical), things should run smoothly - they'll be more out of control than ever, the semantics of the perform- ance trying to keep up. But the presentation will, internally, be somewhat scattershot. I work with laser scan, motion capture, dancers, mappings and remappings of the human body, landscape, very low frequency and shortwave radio, filtered and unfiltered recordings of various musical instruments, images from the problematic of 'wilderness,' video and audio bounced and transformed across the country, material from Second Life performance, materials from programs like Netstumbler (tracking wireless), modified travel footage, local histories and architectures of early mass transit, sexuality, the 'edges' of languages, choreographies, interactivities, codework and codework software, Mathematica, and video/audio noise across the Net, offline as well. All of these areas are subsetted; they spread like tentacles across my workspace, (in)(co)herent, lost and found; now when I perform, I'm part audience, seeing the (re)presentation for the first time, trying more desperately than ever to hold everything together. This is a world of the forgotten, unorganized in relation to 'the clean and proper body,' inert to deconstruction (which is collapsed by error, circles of confusion, exhaustion, loss), open to Levinas' existence and existents. Never do I know where this has gone, will go. But I still need something of a system, something of a path through the dark woods. (And of course any suggestions greatly appreciated.) - Alan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 06:47:38 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tim Peterson Subject: EOAGH Issue 3: Queering Language Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Announcing EOAGH: A Journal of the Arts Issue 3: QUEERING LANGUAGE for kari edwards (1954-2006) at the CHAX Press website: http://chax.org/eoagh/issue3/issuethree.html EDITED BY CA Conrad kari Edwards Paul Foster Johnson Erica Kaufman Jack Kimball Tim Peterson and Stacy Szymaszek FEATURING Kazim Ali Antler John Ashbery Micah Ballard Jeffrey Beam Jen Benka Mark Bibbins Gregg Biglieri Julian T. Brolaski Nicole Brossard Brandon Brown Regie Cabico David Cameron Guillermo Castro Abigail Child Allison Cobb Sean Cole Jen Coleman Kyle Conner Dennis Cooper Cori Copp Jim Cory Phil Crippen Del Ray Cross Rachel Daley Almitra David Tim Dlugos John Mercuri Dooley Sarah Dowling Michael Tod Edgerton kari edwards Joe Elliot Maria Fama Michael Farrell Corrine Fitzpatrick Alex Gildzen Guillermo Gómez-Peña Alexandra Grilikhes E. Tracy Grinnell Nada Gordon Chris Gullo Jeremy Halinen Rob Halpern Julia Hastain Hassen Jen Hofer Yuri Hospodar Brenda Iijima and Stacy Szymaszek Mytili Jagannathan Paolo Javier and Ernest Concepcion Stephen Jonas Jeffrey Jullich Anne Kaier Amanda Katz Vincent Katz Candace Kaucher Erica Kaufman Eric Keenaghan Kevin Killian Jack Kimball and Tim Peterson Amy King Wayne Koestenbaum Bill Kushner Susan Landers Gerrit Lansing Rachel Levitsky Lori Lubeski Ben Malkin Filip Marinovich Tim Martin Janet Mason Farid Matuk Edric Mesmer Thomas Meyer Cathleen Miller Eileen Myles Sawako Nakayasu Tenney Nathanson Chris Nealon Martha Oatis Jeni Olin Akilah Oliver Ashraf Osman Ronald Palmer Stephen Potter kathryn l. pringle Austin Publicover Sina Queyras Camille Roy Trish Salah Jocelyn Saidenberg David Shapiro Nathaniel Siegel Cedar Sigo Jack Spicer Christina Strong Roberto Tejada Karl Tierney Jay Thomas David Trinidad Tony Towle John Tyson Stephen Vincent Alli Warren Jonathan Williams Stephanie Young Rachel Zolf Magdalena Zurawski Jason Zuzga * * * Thanks to everyone who helped make this possible! Don't forget: the NY Release Party and Reading on Saturday happens at 8 PM at the Bowery Poetry Club. A Philadelphia release party and reading is also in the works; more info soon. * * * SUBMIT to EOAGH: A Journal of the Arts at http://chax.org/eoagh/submit.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 08:17:24 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: haiku In-Reply-To: <67dec99a0702091636s812d96bi153a983d4ecea169@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit At least in the case of Paul's poem, I don't think that's true at all. It is quite funny, but not satirical. For me, it is profound expression of the human condition, if you don't mind me putting it like that. (I know that sounds a bit old-fashioned.) Also, contrary to what someone else said, I don't see any real narrative in it. It conjures an image with which one is familiar from narratives (movies, tv) about bank robberies, but nothing is narrated, there is no before or after, no chain of events: just a moment in which one is suddenly faced with something. Regarding Ron's poem, with which I was previously unfamiliar, I also doubt that the intention behind it is mainly satirical. It's pretty dry for that, after all. It seems more to be about pure formalism and its paradoxes, in a manner reminiscent of certain early '70s conceptual art, such as some of Dan Graham's text works. But as I said, this is just a first impression as far as Ron's poem goes. Finally, I have to say to the person who used the childish gesture of putting scare quotes around the word "poem" when writing about these efforts--whether one find them successful or not is another thing: the reactionary attitude this betrays is its own counterargument. Davey Volner wrote: I trust the writer understands that both Violi's haiku and Padgett's are satirical? On 2/9/07, Michael Dylan Welch wrote: > > If Paul Violi's "Don't look at my face. / No change, just large bills. / > One wrong move will be your last." poem blows your mind, wonderful. It's > quite arresting, I agree. But it's not because it has anything to do with > haiku (except for the obvious overlap with haiku of having brevity, which > gives the poem focus). So the problem here is either you or the poet > labelling it as a haiku. For an overview of reasons why it has little to do > with haiku, see my online essay "Becoming a Haiku Poet" ( > http://www.haikuworld.org/begin/mdwelch.apr2003.html). Or see the 2005 > edition of *Poet's Market* (Writer's Digest Books, 2004), in which I have an > essay on haiku and applying its techniques and aesthetics to the writing of > longer poetry. Comments welcome. > > By the way, wordplay on "low-ku," "noir-coup," or whatever, is another > mark of haiku poetasters. So are most poems about haiku. I went through this > stage, too. But I got over it. This is the kind of trivia I got over (from > the esteemed pen of Mr. Daniel Zimmerman): > > flag haiku > > one two three four five > six seven eight nine ten e- > leven twelve thirteen > > A wee bit of reseach in haiku literature would reveal, by the way, that > haiku nearly never have titles, and there are important reasons why. As > Charlie Rossiter says, do some *serious* research and study of the genre > before proclaiming work as being haiku, let alone saying that you "don't > think there can be a haiku better" than the example by Paul Violi. As strong > as Violi's poem may be as poetry, and as clear as its virtues are (I could > see myself publishing it too), it has nearly nothing to do with haiku, and > is easily torn apart for failing as haiku. > > And a quick, respectful message to George (Bowering): You say, "Best US > haiku I know is Ron Padgett's:" > > Seven syllables > Eleven syllables > Seven syllables > > I have to hope your tongue is in your cheek. But if so, why? Why promote a > poem that doesn't take the genre seriously? If you mean to damn all American > poems by favouring such an obviously clueless one, then that seems to > suggest an unfamiliarity with the best haiku written in English. And if your > tongue's not in your cheek, why would you say this is a good haiku? Have you > read Cor van den Heuvel's *Haiku Anthology*, just for starters? > > For a slightly dated annotated list of recommended books on haiku, visit > http://mensaww.org/HaikuBooks.htm. > > Chris Stroffolino also writes that one of the "shorthand staples of early > 20th c.---eliot's objective > correlative? or no ideas but in things?" . . . "seems to distort/reduce > too the haiku suggestiveness." > > I would answer by saying this: Because haiku -- perhaps more than any > other poetry (because it's so short) -- relies on the emotive power behind > things, the notion of the objective correlative increases its suggestiveness > rather than distort or reduce it. We have an immediate reaction to the word > chair that's different, say, than our reaction to the word soup. And think, > too, of how we react differently to "easy chair" compared with "electric > chair." I'm just naming things with these examples, but these objects > correlate to immediate emotions or feelings, or connotations and > associations. Even a "stone" will carry some feeling for us when we read the > word in a poem, though of course the nature of that feeling may vary from > person to person. There's more to the concept of the objective correlative > than just this, of course, but haiku relies on the emotive power of things > perhaps more strongly than other poetry. To the extent that haiku is mostly > objective, focusing on nouns a > nd things such as they are (yet presented in such a way to imply a > relationship and an intuitive feeling), haiku strongly rely on the emotive > weight associated with each thing named in the poem. Certainly there are > subjective or nonliteral elements in some haiku (such as in Shiki's poem, > "for me going / for you staying / two autumns," or Basho's haiku about the > cicada's cries piercing the rocks), but not every haiku is or needs to be > strictly objective. It's a matter of finding balance, within each poem, and > in a particular poem relative to other poems. They are examples of > controlling the objectivity and subjectivity, and typically, where there's a > subjective element in haiku, it's usually in the context of something that's > clearly objective -- something that grounds the rest of the poem so the > subjective element isn't overpowering. > > Sure, you can do ____ (whatever: fill in the blank) in a haiku -- but not > necessarily often (heck, even have a title once in a very rare while, if it > somehow really needs it). Haiku is not a strict set of rules (don't think > that I think it is). Rather, haiku is a field of multiple targets, and a > good haiku will hit multiple targets at once, but not necessarily all of > them -- and occasionally miss one or two of them (on purpose) that certain > people might feel are more important and should never be missed. That's why > it's good to see haiku as a continuum with other kinds of poetry. Poetry > first, labels later (if at all). But, I hasten to say, as soon as you label > something as haiku, it had better be a proper understanding of haiku that > you mean -- and for too many folks, that's not the case. > > Michael > P.S. To discuss another poem offered here, from Eric ( > mr.eric.yost@GMAIL.COM): > > Golf Haiku > > Robin watches drive, > waits until I leave the tee, > probes divot for worm. > > Here are some problems with this "haiku" (which I would hope would be > among the 1,000 haiku one writes before trying to publish any -- a task that > haiku writer Jim Kacian set for himself): > > 1. It has a title, which haiku avoid (and in this case, the title is > redundant -- we know from the poem that it's about golf, and we don't need > to be condescended to and be told it's a haiku; in other "haiku" that have > titles, the title is a sort of cheating -- adding a fourth line). > 2. It drops natural articles in the first and third lines (a robin, a/my > drive, the divot). Paul O. Williams, writing in *The Nick of Time: Essays on > Haiku Aeshetics*, calls this tontoism. It arises when a person is > insufficiently accomplished at crafting the poem to make it properly fit a > form (if they wish to follow a prescribed syllable count), or if they think > somehow that it's "better" simply to be briefer (if they're not following a > set form). Ted Kooser has written that a good poem is like looking at > tropical fish through the bottom of a glass-bottom boat, and that you don't > want things to clatter down onto the glass as you look, or see smudges on > the glass, and thus make you aware of where you're looking from. Rather, you > want to be totally absorbed in what you're seeing, to experience IT as much > as possible. As soon as you resort to tontoism, you show the apparatus, the > scaffolding, and also reveal that following an arbitrary syllable count like > an obedient school bo > y is more important than crafting good content. (Let form be an extension > of content!) The words of a good poem should be as invisible as possible, > letting you feel the meaning or experience the image as sharply as possible > -- this is why haiku is sometimes called the "wordless poem" (Alan Watts; > Eric Amann). My goodness, the haiku crime of tontoism should be punishable > by a lifetime of having to listen to Rod McKuen poetry speeded up to > chipmunk speed. That's such a basic matter of crafting. I would have > expected better on this discussion list. > 3. It is presented as a sentence (ending with a period, even), and is > oblivious to the fragmentary nature of haiku. Starting with a lowercase > letter in this case would also prevent the misreading of "Robin" as a > person's name, which muddies the interpretation of this poem. The lopping > off of the article ("a robin") is another contributor to the wooliness in > this line. > 4. It lacks the two-part juxtapositional structure that focuses our > attention on a specific emotion that we can figure out (the poem lacks > implication and reverberation). Haiku, too, are usually not narrative like > this one, and are usually best if they avoid a cause/effect presentation. > 5. The poem is choppy and awkward. > 6. Because of the worm, I suppose we can imagine it's spring or summer > (I'd have to check the history of "worm" as a seasonal indicator), but the > seasonal element isn't strong here. (That doesn't bother me too much, > though.) A strong seasonal element, however, can greatly deepen the effect > of a poem by tapping into seasonal or natural archetypes, and alluding to > other poems about the same subject (allusion and a technique known as > honkodori is common in Japanese poetry). > 7. The biggest problem is that this is a so-what poem. There's no > implication, nothing for the reader to figure out. I like the image well > enough -- that a bird is waiting for your divot to look for worms (that's > either a smart robin, or a lazy one). But that's all there is too it, and > it's obfuscated by the awkward and unnecessary syntax, all in the name of > 5-7-5. But something more needs to be left out, to be implied. Consider, for > example, this poem: "an old woolen sweater / taken yarn by yarn / from the > snowbank." When students in my classes figure out that it's about a bird > taking bits of yarn for a nest in spring, their faces light up with > realization -- they "get it." Yet no bird is mentioned. Most of the time, if > a haiku doesn't leave something out to be "got," then it fails as a haiku, > no matter how well the objectivity or subjectivity is controlled, whether it > employs a kigo or kireji equivalent, or shasei (sketching form life) > techniques -- and more. And through al > l of this, of course, it's irrelevant whether the poem is 5-7-5 or not. > > On the good side, this poem is objective, but the POINT of using > objectivity is to create some sort of subjective reaction -- an emotional or > intuitive moment. And this poem feels too shallow in its use of objective > description to have created enough of a leap, overtones, or reverberation. > It's got a greater starter image for a haiku, that haiku don't end with > images, they start with them. > > > > -----Original Message----- > Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 07:12:09 +0000 > From: Barry Schwabsky > Subject: Re: haiku > > I don't think there can a haiku better than this one by Paul Violi, which > I am > proud to have published in a magazine I co-edited many years ago. I don't > believe it follows a single one of your rules, nor does it follow the > conventional syllable count, but it blows my mind: > > Don't look at my face. > No change, just large bills. > One wrong move will be your last. > ________________________________________________________________________ > Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security > tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, > free AOL Mail and more. > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 09:45:04 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ren Powell Subject: Re: Anna Nicole Smith In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alan, I do think it makes sense. (Perhaps the assumption that the original comments were derisive is because they seemed to come so quickly out of the gate- at least I think that's why I jerked to that kind of reading). "One element of interest is that such analyses can be applied anywhere, anywhen; from Anna Nicole Smith to far more 'important' matters such as world conflicts, issues of fundamentalism, etc., (for me) to realize just how fragile causality (and its accompanying enunciation of specific effect/affect) is. In other words, I think it's fine not to have answers, ethical structures, etc., in one's life." I am not at all sure that this is where you were going, but I wonder if social ethical structures are descriptive and not determining structures- the way zoologists classify animals. What do you do with the platypus? Now, that probably makes no sense. I heard an interview with Edward Albee regarding the revival of Who's Afraid. . . he said, "there comes a point when a play is famous for being famous". And I don't think it's a new phenomenon. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 09:45:43 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: haiku In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I think Joe's point is well taken. While this discussion has been very instructive in many ways, we should not forget that this is list whose topic is innovative poetics. I'm sure there are other lists available for the promulgation of traditionalist poetics, and some of the same people might even be on both lists, since there is no reason not to be interested in both. But to the extent that we are not, at some point we just have to respectfully agree to disagree, letting the discussions of traditionalist poetics continue in whatever space is devoted to that and the discussions of innovative poetics, whatever that turns out to be, move forward in this one. As for myself, I think that a good deal of that heat that's been generated here hasto do with the "ownership" of the name "haiku." Although it would be useful to me to have recourse to this name at certain times, it doesn't really mean as much to me as it obviously does to some others, and therefore I'd just as soon cede it to them. I don't know why, but somehow this all reminds me of the dispute between Greece and one of the former Yugoslav republics over the name "Macedonia." United Nations intervention has still not resolved this issue. But when I lived in Italy, "macedonia" (small m) was the word for "fruit salad"--an association with very positive connotations as far as I'm concerned. So from now on I am going to avoid the use of the h-word to refer to any poem using a 5-7-5 structure or any other similar short poem whatsoever, except where this is unavoidable, such as when citing something that someone else said. From now on, I promise to refer to all such poems as "macedonia." This is, after all, a list devoted to discussing "those directions in poetry that are committed to innovations, renovations, and investigations of form and/or/as content, to the questioning of received forms and styles, and to the creation of the otherwise unimagined, untried, unexpected, improbable, and impossible." (I quote from the Poetics List Welcome Message.) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 22:51:06 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wystan Curnow Subject: Re: The Object in Postmodernism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Alex, I am frequently struck by a psychological melee, I think it a wonderful = feeling and a lot of my best writing is in fact a result of it; I've had = prostate cancer as well, but have good relations with my students and = women. I learned quite recently that Duchamp had prostate problems = relatively early. Intentional phallacies aside, I don't think these = matters are talked about enough and I suspect that many male artists = have suffered from prostate, and erectile disfunction, and that the = notions of 'late style' may have to be revised in the light of this.=20 Wystan =20 ________________________________ From: UB Poetics discussion group on behalf of Alexander Jorgensen Sent: Sat 10/02/2007 6:03 a.m. To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: The Object in Postmodernism An anecdote: In a class on cross cultural criticism, discussing some of Picasso's later work. A student begins by stating the images studied are an example of the objectification of women, that such images of a woman exposed with legs drawn can only be constructed by another woman and indicates, which is more interesting to me, that Picasso's work is bad - malicious, even. I understand that these are tools for examining culture, etc - and it's all old for me - but for me what was more interesting was what it indicated about the author, Picasso, who in later years was stricken by a kind of psychological melee related to his declining health and prostate cancer. What do you think? And back-channel if deemed safer. Certainly there is no universality of thought with regards to these issues of representation, but I'm trying to gage where some of us are. Regards, Alexander Jorgensen --- _________________________________________________________________________= ___________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com =20 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 23:57:53 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wystan Curnow Subject: Re: Anna Nicole Smith MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Causality will be as fragile or robust as proximity allows. 'Our' = culture is for me 'your' culture, and all the posts on this subject have proceeded from 'you', her 'fellow Americans.' You are seemingly (at your best)=20 closer to 'ANS' than I imagine myself to be. Wystan=20 =20 =20 ________________________________ From: UB Poetics discussion group on behalf of Alan Sondheim Sent: Sat 10/02/2007 7:03 p.m. To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Anna Nicole Smith Our culture is perpetuated in any case, of course; what's important is what one does in relation to it; at best perhaps, one can take a = critical and/or empathetic stand. I've heard the 'famous for being famous' in relation to a number of people, and I think in a way it begs the = question. How can one open this short-circuit? For me, it's related to causation; one always looks for cause and effect - we're brought up to believe = this. But causality is problematic, and the questions that Anna Nicole Smith raises may literally be unanswerable, and at the same time 'eternally' vulnerable (or susceptible) to theory - the descriptions, analyses, go = on and on, just as Tonya Harding appeared in scholarly works as well as innumerable pop venues. One element of interest is that such analyses can be applied anywhere, anywhen; from Anna Nicole Smith to far more 'important' matters such as world conflicts, issues of fundamentalism, etc., (for me) to realize = just how fragile causality (and its accompanying enunciation of specific effect/affect) is. In other words, I think it's fine not to have = answers, ethical structures, etc., in one's life. I hope this makes sense - it's late at night. I do want to add that if = you watched the reality show, the tragedy came through rather starkly; there were times literally couldn't watch. Finally, I really don't know what she's perpetuating (or was used to perpetuate); there are many other models for exaggerated sexuality for example. - Alan On Fri, 9 Feb 2007, Laura Winton wrote: > I was no fan of Anna Nicole Smith. I could never really figure out = what she > was famous *for* and saw her as more of the trend of people who are = famous > for being famous (not unlike Paris Hilton). But it seems that of late = she > had turned very quickly into something of a tragic figure and her = death has > made me rethink maybe how *long* she might have been a tragic figure = without > many people really knowing or recognizing it. So I do feel this = sadness > about it without knowing really why and at the same time I feel that = to find > out somehow perpetuates something about her and about our culture that = I'm > not sure I want to participate in further. > > Does that make any sense at all??? > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Alan Sondheim [mailto:sondheim@PANIX.COM] > Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 3:36 PM > Subject: Anna Nicole Smith > > She always fascinated me. Like Michael Jackson she broke a lot of = taboos, > she couldn't be placed. Her reality show was time slowed, almost = milky. > Howard K. Stern talked Ivy League, she murmured. Her son was there. I > never knew what I was watching. I was constantly thrown off, in a way = that > her son's death was thrown off, and her death, now, is thrown off. > > She couldn't be placed: just as soon as you had it figured out, it > transformed. I did guess that she and Howard were lovers; it was an = odd > subtext to the show. The photographs were sexy but meta-sexed; they = didn't > register properly, there was always something else going on. On = another > list people rave Anita Berber; there's a relationship. > > So poetics? Yes because this doesn't fit, it fractures, it breaks the > discourse of the Law, however you want to define it. It's not only > semantics, it's syntax that's broken down, just as reporters couldn't = get > "hold" of Michael Jackson. > > Then again, her life and death say something about our notions of = beauty, > a kind of inconceivable sexuality associated with it, the body can't = keep > up. What's incarnate falls apart; it's always already fallen apart. > > Finally, there are very real class (economic, geographic, educational) > issues here; like Tonya Harding, she couldn't keep up (I remember TH's > mother saying she couldn't raise an ice princess), or she kept up, on > her own track, in her own way, which is something few of us get to do. > > This really was upsetting. > > - Alan > > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > Work on YouTube, blog at http://nikuko.blogspot.com = . Tel 718-813-3285. > Webpage directory http://www.asondheim.org = . Email: sondheim@panix.com. > http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim for theory; also check > WVU Zwiki, Google for recent. Write for info on books, cds, = performance, > dvds, etc. = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Work on YouTube, blog at http://nikuko.blogspot.com = . Tel 718-813-3285. Webpage directory http://www.asondheim.org = . Email: sondheim@panix.com. http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim for theory; also check WVU Zwiki, Google for recent. Write for info on books, cds, performance, dvds, etc. = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 12:32:24 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ren Powell Subject: Re: Anna Nicole Smith In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please. I have never seen the reality series, because it isn't on the free stations in my country. But unless you are living on the moon, your culture is most certainly touched by American mass media. 60 minutes is popular in Iraq. Afghan children know who Brittany Spears is. ANS was all over billboards in Scandinavia a few years ago- as model for H&M. If you even know who Anne Nicole Smith is, yet claim a kind of superior distance to American pop culture (am I interpreting you correctly?)- this strikes me as absurd and self-deceiving. One would hope that your comment simply means you believe we Americans are more inclined to explore the cultural context of an individual tragedy rather than believing that somehow we Americans uniquely identify with the kind of celebrity foibles and worse. ______ Ren Powell -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Wystan Curnow Sent: 10. februar 2007 11:58 To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Anna Nicole Smith Causality will be as fragile or robust as proximity allows. 'Our' culture is for me 'your' culture, and all the posts on this subject have proceeded from 'you', her 'fellow Americans.' You are seemingly (at your best) closer to 'ANS' than I imagine myself to be. Wystan ________________________________ From: UB Poetics discussion group on behalf of Alan Sondheim Sent: Sat 10/02/2007 7:03 p.m. To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Anna Nicole Smith Our culture is perpetuated in any case, of course; what's important is what one does in relation to it; at best perhaps, one can take a critical and/or empathetic stand. I've heard the 'famous for being famous' in relation to a number of people, and I think in a way it begs the question. How can one open this short-circuit? For me, it's related to causation; one always looks for cause and effect - we're brought up to believe this. But causality is problematic, and the questions that Anna Nicole Smith raises may literally be unanswerable, and at the same time 'eternally' vulnerable (or susceptible) to theory - the descriptions, analyses, go on and on, just as Tonya Harding appeared in scholarly works as well as innumerable pop venues. One element of interest is that such analyses can be applied anywhere, anywhen; from Anna Nicole Smith to far more 'important' matters such as world conflicts, issues of fundamentalism, etc., (for me) to realize just how fragile causality (and its accompanying enunciation of specific effect/affect) is. In other words, I think it's fine not to have answers, ethical structures, etc., in one's life. I hope this makes sense - it's late at night. I do want to add that if you watched the reality show, the tragedy came through rather starkly; there were times literally couldn't watch. Finally, I really don't know what she's perpetuating (or was used to perpetuate); there are many other models for exaggerated sexuality for example. - Alan On Fri, 9 Feb 2007, Laura Winton wrote: > I was no fan of Anna Nicole Smith. I could never really figure out what she > was famous *for* and saw her as more of the trend of people who are famous > for being famous (not unlike Paris Hilton). But it seems that of late she > had turned very quickly into something of a tragic figure and her death has > made me rethink maybe how *long* she might have been a tragic figure without > many people really knowing or recognizing it. So I do feel this sadness > about it without knowing really why and at the same time I feel that to find > out somehow perpetuates something about her and about our culture that I'm > not sure I want to participate in further. > > Does that make any sense at all??? > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Alan Sondheim [mailto:sondheim@PANIX.COM] > Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 3:36 PM > Subject: Anna Nicole Smith > > She always fascinated me. Like Michael Jackson she broke a lot of taboos, > she couldn't be placed. Her reality show was time slowed, almost milky. > Howard K. Stern talked Ivy League, she murmured. Her son was there. I > never knew what I was watching. I was constantly thrown off, in a way that > her son's death was thrown off, and her death, now, is thrown off. > > She couldn't be placed: just as soon as you had it figured out, it > transformed. I did guess that she and Howard were lovers; it was an odd > subtext to the show. The photographs were sexy but meta-sexed; they didn't > register properly, there was always something else going on. On another > list people rave Anita Berber; there's a relationship. > > So poetics? Yes because this doesn't fit, it fractures, it breaks the > discourse of the Law, however you want to define it. It's not only > semantics, it's syntax that's broken down, just as reporters couldn't get > "hold" of Michael Jackson. > > Then again, her life and death say something about our notions of beauty, > a kind of inconceivable sexuality associated with it, the body can't keep > up. What's incarnate falls apart; it's always already fallen apart. > > Finally, there are very real class (economic, geographic, educational) > issues here; like Tonya Harding, she couldn't keep up (I remember TH's > mother saying she couldn't raise an ice princess), or she kept up, on > her own track, in her own way, which is something few of us get to do. > > This really was upsetting. > > - Alan > > ======================================================================= > Work on YouTube, blog at http://nikuko.blogspot.com . Tel 718-813-3285. > Webpage directory http://www.asondheim.org . Email: sondheim@panix.com. > http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim for theory; also check > WVU Zwiki, Google for recent. Write for info on books, cds, performance, > dvds, etc. ============================================================= > > ======================================================================= Work on YouTube, blog at http://nikuko.blogspot.com . Tel 718-813-3285. Webpage directory http://www.asondheim.org . Email: sondheim@panix.com. http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim for theory; also check WVU Zwiki, Google for recent. Write for info on books, cds, performance, dvds, etc. ============================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 23:19:14 +1100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alison Croggon Subject: Re: Anna Nicole Smith In-Reply-To: <011801c74d07$230ef0c0$6400a8c0@REN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Ren, I think, perhaps presumptively, that Wystan is reacting to that inclusive "our" rather than placing himself above mass culture. Being touched or even colonised by a culture does not, after all, make it one's own. American culture is, for me as well, "your" culture. Of course this doesn't mean at all that exchange isn't possible, but on the whole it's preferable if it's mutual exchange, rather than all one way. And people do get tired of having their differences expunged, even if it's well meaning. All best A On 2/10/07, Ren Powell wrote: > Please. > > I have never seen the reality series, because it isn't on the free stations > in my country. But unless you are living on the moon, your culture is most > certainly touched by American mass media. 60 minutes is popular in Iraq. > Afghan children know who Brittany Spears is. ANS was all over billboards in > Scandinavia a few years ago- as model for H&M. > > If you even know who Anne Nicole Smith is, yet claim a kind of superior > distance to American pop culture (am I interpreting you correctly?)- this > strikes me as absurd and self-deceiving. > > One would hope that your comment simply means you believe we Americans are > more inclined to explore the cultural context of an individual tragedy > rather than believing that somehow we Americans uniquely identify with the > kind of celebrity foibles and worse. > ______ > Ren Powell > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of Wystan Curnow > Sent: 10. februar 2007 11:58 > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Anna Nicole Smith > > Causality will be as fragile or robust as proximity allows. 'Our' culture is > for me 'your' culture, and all the posts on this subject have proceeded > from 'you', her 'fellow Americans.' You are seemingly (at your best) > closer to 'ANS' than I imagine myself to be. > Wystan > > > > ________________________________ > > From: UB Poetics discussion group on behalf of Alan Sondheim > Sent: Sat 10/02/2007 7:03 p.m. > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Anna Nicole Smith > > > > Our culture is perpetuated in any case, of course; what's important is > what one does in relation to it; at best perhaps, one can take a critical > and/or empathetic stand. I've heard the 'famous for being famous' in > relation to a number of people, and I think in a way it begs the question. > How can one open this short-circuit? For me, it's related to causation; > one always looks for cause and effect - we're brought up to believe this. > But causality is problematic, and the questions that Anna Nicole Smith > raises may literally be unanswerable, and at the same time 'eternally' > vulnerable (or susceptible) to theory - the descriptions, analyses, go on > and on, just as Tonya Harding appeared in scholarly works as well as > innumerable pop venues. > > One element of interest is that such analyses can be applied anywhere, > anywhen; from Anna Nicole Smith to far more 'important' matters such as > world conflicts, issues of fundamentalism, etc., (for me) to realize just > how fragile causality (and its accompanying enunciation of specific > effect/affect) is. In other words, I think it's fine not to have answers, > ethical structures, etc., in one's life. > > I hope this makes sense - it's late at night. I do want to add that if you > watched the reality show, the tragedy came through rather starkly; there > were times literally couldn't watch. > > Finally, I really don't know what she's perpetuating (or was used to > perpetuate); there are many other models for exaggerated sexuality for > example. > > - Alan > > On Fri, 9 Feb 2007, Laura Winton wrote: > > > I was no fan of Anna Nicole Smith. I could never really figure out what > she > > was famous *for* and saw her as more of the trend of people who are famous > > for being famous (not unlike Paris Hilton). But it seems that of late she > > had turned very quickly into something of a tragic figure and her death > has > > made me rethink maybe how *long* she might have been a tragic figure > without > > many people really knowing or recognizing it. So I do feel this sadness > > about it without knowing really why and at the same time I feel that to > find > > out somehow perpetuates something about her and about our culture that I'm > > not sure I want to participate in further. > > > > Does that make any sense at all??? > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Alan Sondheim [mailto:sondheim@PANIX.COM] > > Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 3:36 PM > > Subject: Anna Nicole Smith > > > > She always fascinated me. Like Michael Jackson she broke a lot of taboos, > > she couldn't be placed. Her reality show was time slowed, almost milky. > > Howard K. Stern talked Ivy League, she murmured. Her son was there. I > > never knew what I was watching. I was constantly thrown off, in a way that > > her son's death was thrown off, and her death, now, is thrown off. > > > > She couldn't be placed: just as soon as you had it figured out, it > > transformed. I did guess that she and Howard were lovers; it was an odd > > subtext to the show. The photographs were sexy but meta-sexed; they didn't > > register properly, there was always something else going on. On another > > list people rave Anita Berber; there's a relationship. > > > > So poetics? Yes because this doesn't fit, it fractures, it breaks the > > discourse of the Law, however you want to define it. It's not only > > semantics, it's syntax that's broken down, just as reporters couldn't get > > "hold" of Michael Jackson. > > > > Then again, her life and death say something about our notions of beauty, > > a kind of inconceivable sexuality associated with it, the body can't keep > > up. What's incarnate falls apart; it's always already fallen apart. > > > > Finally, there are very real class (economic, geographic, educational) > > issues here; like Tonya Harding, she couldn't keep up (I remember TH's > > mother saying she couldn't raise an ice princess), or she kept up, on > > her own track, in her own way, which is something few of us get to do. > > > > This really was upsetting. > > > > - Alan > > > > ======================================================================= > > Work on YouTube, blog at http://nikuko.blogspot.com > . Tel 718-813-3285. > > Webpage directory http://www.asondheim.org . > Email: sondheim@panix.com. > > http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim for theory; also check > > WVU Zwiki, Google for recent. Write for info on books, cds, performance, > > dvds, etc. ============================================================= > > > > > > > ======================================================================= > Work on YouTube, blog at http://nikuko.blogspot.com > . Tel 718-813-3285. > Webpage directory http://www.asondheim.org . > Email: sondheim@panix.com. > http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim for theory; also check > WVU Zwiki, Google for recent. Write for info on books, cds, performance, > dvds, etc. ============================================================= > -- Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 14:09:18 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ren Powell Subject: Re: Anna Nicole Smith In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alison, It wouldn't surprise me if I am the one being presumptive. I have been lately. I apologize. I do also have an overdeveloped defence response to stereotypes regarding the tabloid mentality associated with Americans. A lot of things assumed to be Americanization are actually not. Like reality television. Seeing that this listserv is Buffalo.edu, it seems to me unnecessary for anyone posting "our" to be compelled to preface it with "as Americans". So, reading a posting which objects to this, which expresses a dissociation from ANS based on national cultural identity. . . I do (perhaps mistakenly) draw a conclusion regarding the person's motivation to do so. And now I'm going to keep my fingers still and go back to reading what everyone has to say about poetry. Apologies again, Ren ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 14:35:43 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dubravka Djuric Subject: Re: small cultures and innovative poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hi jim, thank you for this words, and for all in this list i will suggest to find the sight of awin (association for women initiatives where i now for 10 years establushed school for innovative poetry and poetics, you could find there text in english where you could have a sense what we have been doing! http://www.awin.org.yu ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Andrews" To: Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 5:23 AM Subject: Re: small cultures and innovative poetry > Hi Dubravka, > > Thanks for your fascinating post. Also, the tone of it is appealing: it > isn't calling for anybody's head on a platter; it is articulate and > progressive, not bitter or vengeful. You do not play the nationalistic > trumpet but, instead, question the political and poetical value of > aggressive nationalism. You speak for the value of experimental poetry that > introduces critical methods into poetry. That is important in poetry and in > contemporary society. > > Poetry needs to be able to deal with situations such as > http://alternet.org/blogs/peek/47507 . Intensest engagement with language, > these days, is not necessarily in a poemy poem on a page. It can happen off > the page and even off the art map. Poetry needs to be able to go there. > > ja > http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 06:05:58 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Dickow Subject: ANS and F Sherlock In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit All, All this Anna Nicole Smith talk is fine by me one way or the other, but shouldn't we be talking about Frank Sherlock, who's apparently very ill? Seems like the time for talking about dear fellow-poets, rather than celebrities. Cheers to Aaron for his caring, though, and others, still. Amicalement, Alex www.alexdickow.net/blog/ les mots! ah quel désert à la fin merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 09:23:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Factory School Subject: Meet the Press (PS 5 and 6) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit public statement: "Classroom Economics of Fugitive Reproduction" How to Fair Use Revealed Instruments of social and cultural reproduction, our books are developed by and for specific communities of learners within and without institutions of state-corporate power. A university press without a university, Factory School makes available currently unavailable content, channeling public funds away from the corporate textbook scam. * public statement: "Knowledge Laundering, Community Handbook Project" Knowledge should be shared and developed in freedom, so why isn't it? Textbook publishers careen through knowledge like bulls through the community pantry. Absent the merger to end all, we must take back what is rightfully ours, hack what is usefully right, and compose our own off-grid monuments to the spirit of inquiry. This project shows one way. * Meet the Press: An Evening With Factory School Design Team Poetry Project at St. Marks Church Monday, 8:00 pm http://www.poetryproject.com/calendar.php ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 09:29:02 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: haiku In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit And where's this blinkin' rule book that gets so much mention? I've never seen one. When it comes to form, it seems to me one can be descriptive but not prescriptive. Hal L'uccello canta nella gabbia Non di gioia ma di rabbia! The songbird in its cage Sings not for joy, but rage! --Italian proverb Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com halvard@earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Feb 9, 2007, at 11:23 PM, Joe Amato wrote: > But Dan, how would you *know* whether a *poet* knows "the history > of the poem, its implications" etc.? -- unless of course you feel > you can glean same from a reading of (e.g.) the poem itself? > > Stephen Vincent makes the proper point, in any case, even against > MDW's reasoned argument in favor of such knowledge. > > This is, after all, a list devoted to discussing "those directions > in poetry that are committed to innovations, renovations, and > investigations of form and/or/as content, to the questioning of > received forms and styles, and to the creation of the > otherwise unimagined, untried, unexpected, improbable, and > impossible." (I quote from the Poetics List Welcome Message.) > > The question before us is a typical question, really, applicable to > haiku or to any rec'd form: at what point is taking liberties > deemed acceptable, or unacceptable, and why? > > There are surely histories of poetry, in the U.S. (e.g.), in the > 20th century (e.g.) -- a history of resistance to received forms -- > to suggest that some (of us) will be inclined to mess with rec'd > forms, with (or without) the possession of such knowledge. Whether > the results are successful, well -- they're not not successful > simply b/c they've deviated from the norm. If you think you can > read a given example and suss out whether the poet has *not* acted > with sufficient knowledge, very well then. But that's a mite > tougher to do, and to argue, than simply to compare and contrast > with what the formal rules might say such items ought to attempt. > Pardon me, but simple deviation from the norm does not (as I see > it) an unsuccessful poem make, haiku or otherwise, nor does it > suggest a lack of associated knowledge. > > That said, I opt for as much knowledge of the formal rules as one > has a stomach for. > > At any rate, I daresay it will require a much more sophisticated > approach to form generally to persuade most on this list not to > mess with rec'd form. Where I part company with MDW is in my > assertion that haiku are no different, finally, than sonnets (or > any other poetic form) insofar as the inherent legitimacy of > altering associated constraints. Again, how is one to *prove* that > one has the knowledge sufficient to being granted license (poetic > license) to alter form? Or, again, are we saying that all such > knowledge will be evident in the poetry itself? One way to almost > guarantee that nobody messes with form is to argue that a given > poem must exhibit evidence of such knowledge. > > I hope you all see the conundrum at work here. So, I'd like someone > to explain to me -- seriously now -- why some of the haiku posted > here DON'T work when understood as "questioning of received forms > and styles" (see above). Or even better, how it is that some of the > haiku posted here, lionized or no, do *not* reveal sufficient > knowledge of haiku. > > Unless the problem is simply one of naming -- i.e., that we ought > not to call a haiku that which merely resembles same -- then a > judgment is being made as to how best to approach this matter of > poetic form, and resistance thereto. That's not pertinent simply > to haiku -- that strikes at the heart of what a list like this is > supposed to be about. > > Best, > > Joe > >> I think the writer is reacting to Bowering's and Schwabsky's >> lionizing >> of Padgett's and Violi's poems, respectively, and not the poems >> themeselves. >> >> I agree with Vincent that morphing is necessary, but MDW makes a good >> point, one that shouldn't have to be made. Know the history of the >> poem, its implications and subtleties, and THEN subvert it. >> >> On 2/9/07, Davey Volner wrote: >>> I trust the writer understands that both Violi's haiku and >>> Padgett's are >>> satirical? >>> >>> On 2/9/07, Michael Dylan Welch wrote: >>>> >>>> If Paul Violi's "Don't look at my face. / No change, just large >>>> bills. / >>>> One wrong move will be your last." poem blows your mind, >>>> wonderful. It's >>>> quite arresting, I agree. But it's not because it has anything >>>> to do with >>>> haiku (except for the obvious overlap with haiku of having >>>> brevity, which >>> > gives the poem focus). So the problem here is either you or >>> the poet >>>> labelling it as a haiku. For an overview of reasons why it has >>>> little to do >>>> with haiku, see my online essay "Becoming a Haiku Poet" ( >>> > http://www.haikuworld.org/begin/mdwelch.apr2003.html). Or see >>> the 2005 >>>> edition of *Poet's Market* (Writer's Digest Books, 2004), in >>>> which I have an >>>> essay on haiku and applying its techniques and aesthetics to >>>> the writing of >>>> longer poetry. Comments welcome. >>>> >>>> By the way, wordplay on "low-ku," "noir-coup," or whatever, is >>>> another >>>> mark of haiku poetasters. So are most poems about haiku. I went >>>> through this >>>> stage, too. But I got over it. This is the kind of trivia I got >>>> over (from >>>> the esteemed pen of Mr. Daniel Zimmerman): >>>> >>>> flag haiku >>>> >>>> one two three four five >>>> six seven eight nine ten e- >>>> leven twelve thirteen >>>> >>>> A wee bit of reseach in haiku literature would reveal, by the >>>> way, that >>>> haiku nearly never have titles, and there are important reasons >>>> why. As >>>> Charlie Rossiter says, do some *serious* research and study of >>>> the genre >>>> before proclaiming work as being haiku, let alone saying that >>>> you "don't >>>> think there can be a haiku better" than the example by Paul >>>> Violi. As strong >>>> as Violi's poem may be as poetry, and as clear as its virtues >>>> are (I could >>>> see myself publishing it too), it has nearly nothing to do with >>>> haiku, and >>>> is easily torn apart for failing as haiku. >>>> >>>> And a quick, respectful message to George (Bowering): You say, >>>> "Best US >>>> haiku I know is Ron Padgett's:" >>>> >>>> Seven syllables >>>> Eleven syllables >>>> Seven syllables >>>> >>>> I have to hope your tongue is in your cheek. But if so, why? >>>> Why promote a >>>> poem that doesn't take the genre seriously? If you mean to damn >>>> all American >>>> poems by favouring such an obviously clueless one, then that >>>> seems to >>>> suggest an unfamiliarity with the best haiku written in >>>> English. And if your >>>> tongue's not in your cheek, why would you say this is a good >>>> haiku? Have you >>>> read Cor van den Heuvel's *Haiku Anthology*, just for starters? >>>> >>>> For a slightly dated annotated list of recommended books on >>>> haiku, visit >>>> http://mensaww.org/HaikuBooks.htm. >>>> >>>> Chris Stroffolino also writes that one of the "shorthand >>>> staples of early >>>> 20th c.---eliot's objective >>>> correlative? or no ideas but in things?" . . . "seems to >>>> distort/reduce >>>> too the haiku suggestiveness." >>>> >>>> I would answer by saying this: Because haiku -- perhaps more >>>> than any >>>> other poetry (because it's so short) -- relies on the emotive >>>> power behind >>>> things, the notion of the objective correlative increases its >>>> suggestiveness >>>> rather than distort or reduce it. We have an immediate reaction >>>> to the word >>>> chair that's different, say, than our reaction to the word >>>> soup. And think, >>>> too, of how we react differently to "easy chair" compared with >>>> "electric >>>> chair." I'm just naming things with these examples, but these >>>> objects >>>> correlate to immediate emotions or feelings, or connotations and >>>> associations. Even a "stone" will carry some feeling for us >>>> when we read the >>>> word in a poem, though of course the nature of that feeling may >>>> vary from >>>> person to person. There's more to the concept of the objective >>>> correlative >>>> than just this, of course, but haiku relies on the emotive >>>> power of things >>>> perhaps more strongly than other poetry. To the extent that >>>> haiku is mostly >>>> objective, focusing on nouns a >>>> nd things such as they are (yet presented in such a way to imply a >>>> relationship and an intuitive feeling), haiku strongly rely on >>>> the emotive >>>> weight associated with each thing named in the poem. Certainly >>>> there are >>>> subjective or nonliteral elements in some haiku (such as in >>>> Shiki's poem, >>>> "for me going / for you staying / two autumns," or Basho's >>>> haiku about the >>>> cicada's cries piercing the rocks), but not every haiku is or >>>> needs to be >>>> strictly objective. It's a matter of finding balance, within >>>> each poem, and >>>> in a particular poem relative to other poems. They are examples of >>>> controlling the objectivity and subjectivity, and typically, >>>> where there's a >>>> subjective element in haiku, it's usually in the context of >>>> something that's >>> > clearly objective -- something that grounds the rest of the >>> poem so the >>>> subjective element isn't overpowering. >>>> >>>> Sure, you can do ____ (whatever: fill in the blank) in a haiku >>>> -- but not >>> > necessarily often (heck, even have a title once in a very rare >>> while, if it >>>> somehow really needs it). Haiku is not a strict set of rules >>>> (don't think >>>> that I think it is). Rather, haiku is a field of multiple >>>> targets, and a >>>> good haiku will hit multiple targets at once, but not >>>> necessarily all of >>>> them -- and occasionally miss one or two of them (on purpose) >>>> that certain >>>> people might feel are more important and should never be >>>> missed. That's why >>>> it's good to see haiku as a continuum with other kinds of >>>> poetry. Poetry >>>> first, labels later (if at all). But, I hasten to say, as soon >>>> as you label >>>> something as haiku, it had better be a proper understanding of >>>> haiku that >>>> you mean -- and for too many folks, that's not the case. >>>> >>>> Michael >>>> P.S. To discuss another poem offered here, from Eric ( >>>> mr.eric.yost@GMAIL.COM): >>>> >>>> Golf Haiku >>>> >>>> Robin watches drive, >>>> waits until I leave the tee, >>>> probes divot for worm. >>>> >>>> Here are some problems with this "haiku" (which I would hope >>>> would be >>>> among the 1,000 haiku one writes before trying to publish any >>>> -- a task that >>>> haiku writer Jim Kacian set for himself): >>>> >>>> 1. It has a title, which haiku avoid (and in this case, the >>>> title is >>>> redundant -- we know from the poem that it's about golf, and we >>>> don't need >>>> to be condescended to and be told it's a haiku; in other >>>> "haiku" that have >>>> titles, the title is a sort of cheating -- adding a fourth line). >>>> 2. It drops natural articles in the first and third lines (a >>>> robin, a/my >>>> drive, the divot). Paul O. Williams, writing in *The Nick of >>>> Time: Essays on >>>> Haiku Aeshetics*, calls this tontoism. It arises when a person is >>>> insufficiently accomplished at crafting the poem to make it >>>> properly fit a >>>> form (if they wish to follow a prescribed syllable count), or >>>> if they think >>>> somehow that it's "better" simply to be briefer (if they're not >>>> following a >>>> set form). Ted Kooser has written that a good poem is like >>>> looking at >>>> tropical fish through the bottom of a glass-bottom boat, and >>>> that you don't >>>> want things to clatter down onto the glass as you look, or see >>>> smudges on >>>> the glass, and thus make you aware of where you're looking >>>> from. Rather, you >>>> want to be totally absorbed in what you're seeing, to >>>> experience IT as much >>>> as possible. As soon as you resort to tontoism, you show the >>>> apparatus, the >>>> scaffolding, and also reveal that following an arbitrary >>>> syllable count like >>>> an obedient school bo >>>> y is more important than crafting good content. (Let form be an >>>> extension >>>> of content!) The words of a good poem should be as invisible as >>>> possible, >>>> letting you feel the meaning or experience the image as sharply >>>> as possible >>>> -- this is why haiku is sometimes called the "wordless >>>> poem" (Alan Watts; >>>> Eric Amann). My goodness, the haiku crime of tontoism should be >>>> punishable >>>> by a lifetime of having to listen to Rod McKuen poetry speeded >>>> up to >>>> chipmunk speed. That's such a basic matter of crafting. I would >>>> have >>>> expected better on this discussion list. >>>> 3. It is presented as a sentence (ending with a period, even), >>>> and is >>>> oblivious to the fragmentary nature of haiku. Starting with a >>>> lowercase >>>> letter in this case would also prevent the misreading of >>>> "Robin" as a >>>> person's name, which muddies the interpretation of this poem. >>>> The lopping >>>> off of the article ("a robin") is another contributor to the >>>> wooliness in >>>> this line. >>>> 4. It lacks the two-part juxtapositional structure that focuses >>>> our >>>> attention on a specific emotion that we can figure out (the >>>> poem lacks >>>> implication and reverberation). Haiku, too, are usually not >>>> narrative like >>>> this one, and are usually best if they avoid a cause/effect >>>> presentation. >>>> 5. The poem is choppy and awkward. >>>> 6. Because of the worm, I suppose we can imagine it's spring or >>>> summer >>>> (I'd have to check the history of "worm" as a seasonal >>>> indicator), but the >>>> seasonal element isn't strong here. (That doesn't bother me too >>>> much, >>> > though.) A strong seasonal element, however, can greatly >>> deepen the effect >>>> of a poem by tapping into seasonal or natural archetypes, and >>>> alluding to >>> > other poems about the same subject (allusion and a technique >>> known as >>>> honkodori is common in Japanese poetry). >>>> 7. The biggest problem is that this is a so-what poem. There's no >>>> implication, nothing for the reader to figure out. I like the >>>> image well >>>> enough -- that a bird is waiting for your divot to look for >>>> worms (that's >>>> either a smart robin, or a lazy one). But that's all there is >>>> too it, and >>>> it's obfuscated by the awkward and unnecessary syntax, all in >>>> the name of >>>> 5-7-5. But something more needs to be left out, to be implied. >>>> Consider, for >>>> example, this poem: "an old woolen sweater / taken yarn by >>>> yarn / from the >>>> snowbank." When students in my classes figure out that it's >>>> about a bird >>>> taking bits of yarn for a nest in spring, their faces light up >>>> with >>>> realization -- they "get it." Yet no bird is mentioned. Most of >>>> the time, if >>>> a haiku doesn't leave something out to be "got," then it fails >>>> as a haiku, >>>> no matter how well the objectivity or subjectivity is >>>> controlled, whether it >>>> employs a kigo or kireji equivalent, or shasei (sketching form >>>> life) >>>> techniques -- and more. And through al >>>> l of this, of course, it's irrelevant whether the poem is 5-7-5 >>>> or not. >>>> >>>> On the good side, this poem is objective, but the POINT of using >>>> objectivity is to create some sort of subjective reaction -- an >>>> emotional or >>>> intuitive moment. And this poem feels too shallow in its use of >>>> objective >>>> description to have created enough of a leap, overtones, or >>>> reverberation. >>>> It's got a greater starter image for a haiku, that haiku don't >>>> end with >>>> images, they start with them. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 07:12:09 +0000 >>>> From: Barry Schwabsky >>>> Subject: Re: haiku >>>> >>>> I don't think there can a haiku better than this one by Paul >>>> Violi, which >>>> I am >>>> proud to have published in a magazine I co-edited many years >>>> ago. I don't >>>> believe it follows a single one of your rules, nor does it >>>> follow the >>>> conventional syllable count, but it blows my mind: >>>> >>>> Don't look at my face. >>>> No change, just large bills. >>>> One wrong move will be your last. >>>> >>>> ___________________________________________________________________ >>>> _____ >>>> Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety >>>> and security >>>> tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from >>>> across the web, >>>> free AOL Mail and more. >>>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> http://hyperhypo.org/blog >> http://www.pftborder.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 09:49:22 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Coffey Subject: Re: haiku In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline To borrow a word someone used in an offline message regarding my statement, I will defer to your rebuttal, Joe. I didn't mean to speak in absolutes, nor to imply that anyone except the poet should have to be aware of their knowledge of form, history, etc. Speaking only of the haiku form, it seems to have gotten a particularly bad, trivializing, rap. There are so many haikus out there that are atrocious, and rather than see the atrociousness of the poem as a singular (repeated many times over) occurrence, the form itself gets triviailized, Hallmarkized. To all, I'm sorry if my statement was at odds with the guiding principles of the Poetics list. I should have thought it through further before posting. I certainly am not one to prescribe any quantified amount of poetic knowledge, or proscribe any experimentation or subversion of form. But I always hope it will be done thoughtfully, and with purpose. On 2/9/07, Joe Amato wrote: > But Dan, how would you *know* whether a *poet* knows "the history of > the poem, its implications" etc.? -- unless of course you feel you > can glean same from a reading of (e.g.) the poem itself? > > Stephen Vincent makes the proper point, in any case, even against > MDW's reasoned argument in favor of such knowledge. > > This is, after all, a list devoted to discussing "those directions in > poetry that are committed to innovations, renovations, and > investigations of form and/or/as content, to the questioning of > received forms and styles, and to the creation of the > otherwise unimagined, untried, unexpected, improbable, and > impossible." (I quote from the Poetics List Welcome Message.) > > The question before us is a typical question, really, applicable to > haiku or to any rec'd form: at what point is taking liberties deemed > acceptable, or unacceptable, and why? > > There are surely histories of poetry, in the U.S. (e.g.), in the 20th > century (e.g.) -- a history of resistance to received forms -- to > suggest that some (of us) will be inclined to mess with rec'd forms, > with (or without) the possession of such knowledge. Whether the > results are successful, well -- they're not not successful simply b/c > they've deviated from the norm. If you think you can read a given > example and suss out whether the poet has *not* acted with sufficient > knowledge, very well then. But that's a mite tougher to do, and to > argue, than simply to compare and contrast with what the formal rules > might say such items ought to attempt. Pardon me, but simple > deviation from the norm does not (as I see it) an unsuccessful poem > make, haiku or otherwise, nor does it suggest a lack of associated > knowledge. > > That said, I opt for as much knowledge of the formal rules as one has > a stomach for. > > At any rate, I daresay it will require a much more sophisticated > approach to form generally to persuade most on this list not to mess > with rec'd form. Where I part company with MDW is in my assertion > that haiku are no different, finally, than sonnets (or any other > poetic form) insofar as the inherent legitimacy of altering > associated constraints. Again, how is one to *prove* that one has the > knowledge sufficient to being granted license (poetic license) to > alter form? Or, again, are we saying that all such knowledge will be > evident in the poetry itself? One way to almost guarantee that nobody > messes with form is to argue that a given poem must exhibit evidence > of such knowledge. > > I hope you all see the conundrum at work here. So, I'd like someone > to explain to me -- seriously now -- why some of the haiku posted > here DON'T work when understood as "questioning of received forms and > styles" (see above). Or even better, how it is that some of the haiku > posted here, lionized or no, do *not* reveal sufficient knowledge of > haiku. > > Unless the problem is simply one of naming -- i.e., that we ought not > to call a haiku that which merely resembles same -- then a judgment > is being made as to how best to approach this matter of poetic form, > and resistance thereto. That's not pertinent simply to haiku -- that > strikes at the heart of what a list like this is supposed to be about. > > Best, > > Joe > > >I think the writer is reacting to Bowering's and Schwabsky's lionizing > >of Padgett's and Violi's poems, respectively, and not the poems > >themeselves. > > > >I agree with Vincent that morphing is necessary, but MDW makes a good > >point, one that shouldn't have to be made. Know the history of the > >poem, its implications and subtleties, and THEN subvert it. > > > >On 2/9/07, Davey Volner wrote: > >>I trust the writer understands that both Violi's haiku and Padgett's are > >>satirical? > >> > >>On 2/9/07, Michael Dylan Welch wrote: > >>> > >>> If Paul Violi's "Don't look at my face. / No change, just large bills. / > >>> One wrong move will be your last." poem blows your mind, wonderful. It's > >>> quite arresting, I agree. But it's not because it has anything to do with > >>> haiku (except for the obvious overlap with haiku of having brevity, which > >> > gives the poem focus). So the problem here is either you or the poet > >>> labelling it as a haiku. For an overview of reasons why it has little to do > >>> with haiku, see my online essay "Becoming a Haiku Poet" ( > >> > http://www.haikuworld.org/begin/mdwelch.apr2003.html). Or see the 2005 > >>> edition of *Poet's Market* (Writer's Digest Books, 2004), in > >>>which I have an > >>> essay on haiku and applying its techniques and aesthetics to the writing of > >>> longer poetry. Comments welcome. > >>> > >>> By the way, wordplay on "low-ku," "noir-coup," or whatever, is another > >>> mark of haiku poetasters. So are most poems about haiku. I went > >>>through this > >>> stage, too. But I got over it. This is the kind of trivia I got over (from > >>> the esteemed pen of Mr. Daniel Zimmerman): > >>> > >>> flag haiku > >>> > >>> one two three four five > >>> six seven eight nine ten e- > >>> leven twelve thirteen > >>> > >>> A wee bit of reseach in haiku literature would reveal, by the way, that > >>> haiku nearly never have titles, and there are important reasons why. As > >>> Charlie Rossiter says, do some *serious* research and study of the genre > >>> before proclaiming work as being haiku, let alone saying that you "don't > >>> think there can be a haiku better" than the example by Paul > >>>Violi. As strong > >>> as Violi's poem may be as poetry, and as clear as its virtues are (I could > >>> see myself publishing it too), it has nearly nothing to do with haiku, and > >>> is easily torn apart for failing as haiku. > >>> > >>> And a quick, respectful message to George (Bowering): You say, "Best US > >>> haiku I know is Ron Padgett's:" > >>> > >>> Seven syllables > >>> Eleven syllables > >>> Seven syllables > >>> > >>> I have to hope your tongue is in your cheek. But if so, why? Why promote a > >>> poem that doesn't take the genre seriously? If you mean to damn > >>>all American > >>> poems by favouring such an obviously clueless one, then that seems to > >>> suggest an unfamiliarity with the best haiku written in English. > >>>And if your > >>> tongue's not in your cheek, why would you say this is a good > >>>haiku? Have you > >>> read Cor van den Heuvel's *Haiku Anthology*, just for starters? > >>> > >>> For a slightly dated annotated list of recommended books on haiku, visit > >>> http://mensaww.org/HaikuBooks.htm. > >>> > >>> Chris Stroffolino also writes that one of the "shorthand staples of early > >>> 20th c.---eliot's objective > >>> correlative? or no ideas but in things?" . . . "seems to distort/reduce > >>> too the haiku suggestiveness." > >>> > >>> I would answer by saying this: Because haiku -- perhaps more than any > >>> other poetry (because it's so short) -- relies on the emotive power behind > >>> things, the notion of the objective correlative increases its > >>>suggestiveness > >>> rather than distort or reduce it. We have an immediate reaction to the word > >>> chair that's different, say, than our reaction to the word soup. And think, > >>> too, of how we react differently to "easy chair" compared with "electric > >>> chair." I'm just naming things with these examples, but these objects > >>> correlate to immediate emotions or feelings, or connotations and > >>> associations. Even a "stone" will carry some feeling for us when > >>>we read the > >>> word in a poem, though of course the nature of that feeling may vary from > >>> person to person. There's more to the concept of the objective correlative > >>> than just this, of course, but haiku relies on the emotive power of things > >>> perhaps more strongly than other poetry. To the extent that haiku is mostly > >>> objective, focusing on nouns a > >>> nd things such as they are (yet presented in such a way to imply a > >>> relationship and an intuitive feeling), haiku strongly rely on the emotive > >>> weight associated with each thing named in the poem. Certainly there are > >>> subjective or nonliteral elements in some haiku (such as in Shiki's poem, > >>> "for me going / for you staying / two autumns," or Basho's haiku about the > >>> cicada's cries piercing the rocks), but not every haiku is or needs to be > >>> strictly objective. It's a matter of finding balance, within each poem, and > >>> in a particular poem relative to other poems. They are examples of > >>> controlling the objectivity and subjectivity, and typically, > >>>where there's a > >>> subjective element in haiku, it's usually in the context of > >>>something that's > >> > clearly objective -- something that grounds the rest of the poem so the > >>> subjective element isn't overpowering. > >>> > >>> Sure, you can do ____ (whatever: fill in the blank) in a haiku -- but not > >> > necessarily often (heck, even have a title once in a very rare > >>while, if it > >>> somehow really needs it). Haiku is not a strict set of rules (don't think > >>> that I think it is). Rather, haiku is a field of multiple targets, and a > >>> good haiku will hit multiple targets at once, but not necessarily all of > >>> them -- and occasionally miss one or two of them (on purpose) that certain > >>> people might feel are more important and should never be missed. That's why > >>> it's good to see haiku as a continuum with other kinds of poetry. Poetry > >>> first, labels later (if at all). But, I hasten to say, as soon as you label > >>> something as haiku, it had better be a proper understanding of haiku that > >>> you mean -- and for too many folks, that's not the case. > >>> > >>> Michael > >>> P.S. To discuss another poem offered here, from Eric ( > >>> mr.eric.yost@GMAIL.COM): > >>> > >>> Golf Haiku > >>> > >>> Robin watches drive, > >>> waits until I leave the tee, > >>> probes divot for worm. > >>> > >>> Here are some problems with this "haiku" (which I would hope would be > >>> among the 1,000 haiku one writes before trying to publish any -- > >>>a task that > >>> haiku writer Jim Kacian set for himself): > >>> > >>> 1. It has a title, which haiku avoid (and in this case, the title is > >>> redundant -- we know from the poem that it's about golf, and we don't need > >>> to be condescended to and be told it's a haiku; in other "haiku" that have > >>> titles, the title is a sort of cheating -- adding a fourth line). > >>> 2. It drops natural articles in the first and third lines (a robin, a/my > >>> drive, the divot). Paul O. Williams, writing in *The Nick of > >>>Time: Essays on > >>> Haiku Aeshetics*, calls this tontoism. It arises when a person is > >>> insufficiently accomplished at crafting the poem to make it properly fit a > >>> form (if they wish to follow a prescribed syllable count), or if they think > >>> somehow that it's "better" simply to be briefer (if they're not following a > >>> set form). Ted Kooser has written that a good poem is like looking at > >>> tropical fish through the bottom of a glass-bottom boat, and that you don't > >>> want things to clatter down onto the glass as you look, or see smudges on > >>> the glass, and thus make you aware of where you're looking from. > >>>Rather, you > >>> want to be totally absorbed in what you're seeing, to experience IT as much > >>> as possible. As soon as you resort to tontoism, you show the apparatus, the > >>> scaffolding, and also reveal that following an arbitrary syllable > >>>count like > >>> an obedient school bo > >>> y is more important than crafting good content. (Let form be an extension > >>> of content!) The words of a good poem should be as invisible as possible, > >>> letting you feel the meaning or experience the image as sharply as possible > >>> -- this is why haiku is sometimes called the "wordless poem" (Alan Watts; > >>> Eric Amann). My goodness, the haiku crime of tontoism should be punishable > >>> by a lifetime of having to listen to Rod McKuen poetry speeded up to > >>> chipmunk speed. That's such a basic matter of crafting. I would have > >>> expected better on this discussion list. > >>> 3. It is presented as a sentence (ending with a period, even), and is > >>> oblivious to the fragmentary nature of haiku. Starting with a lowercase > >>> letter in this case would also prevent the misreading of "Robin" as a > >>> person's name, which muddies the interpretation of this poem. The lopping > >>> off of the article ("a robin") is another contributor to the wooliness in > >>> this line. > >>> 4. It lacks the two-part juxtapositional structure that focuses our > >>> attention on a specific emotion that we can figure out (the poem lacks > >>> implication and reverberation). Haiku, too, are usually not narrative like > >>> this one, and are usually best if they avoid a cause/effect presentation. > >>> 5. The poem is choppy and awkward. > >>> 6. Because of the worm, I suppose we can imagine it's spring or summer > >>> (I'd have to check the history of "worm" as a seasonal indicator), but the > >>> seasonal element isn't strong here. (That doesn't bother me too much, > >> > though.) A strong seasonal element, however, can greatly deepen the effect > >>> of a poem by tapping into seasonal or natural archetypes, and alluding to > >> > other poems about the same subject (allusion and a technique known as > >>> honkodori is common in Japanese poetry). > >>> 7. The biggest problem is that this is a so-what poem. There's no > >>> implication, nothing for the reader to figure out. I like the image well > >>> enough -- that a bird is waiting for your divot to look for worms (that's > >>> either a smart robin, or a lazy one). But that's all there is too it, and > >>> it's obfuscated by the awkward and unnecessary syntax, all in the name of > >>> 5-7-5. But something more needs to be left out, to be implied. > >>>Consider, for > >>> example, this poem: "an old woolen sweater / taken yarn by yarn / from the > >>> snowbank." When students in my classes figure out that it's about a bird > >>> taking bits of yarn for a nest in spring, their faces light up with > >>> realization -- they "get it." Yet no bird is mentioned. Most of > >>>the time, if > >>> a haiku doesn't leave something out to be "got," then it fails as a haiku, > >>> no matter how well the objectivity or subjectivity is controlled, > >>>whether it > >>> employs a kigo or kireji equivalent, or shasei (sketching form life) > >>> techniques -- and more. And through al > >>> l of this, of course, it's irrelevant whether the poem is 5-7-5 or not. > >>> > >>> On the good side, this poem is objective, but the POINT of using > >>> objectivity is to create some sort of subjective reaction -- an > >>>emotional or > >>> intuitive moment. And this poem feels too shallow in its use of objective > >>> description to have created enough of a leap, overtones, or reverberation. > >>> It's got a greater starter image for a haiku, that haiku don't end with > >>> images, they start with them. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 07:12:09 +0000 > >>> From: Barry Schwabsky > >>> Subject: Re: haiku > >>> > >>> I don't think there can a haiku better than this one by Paul Violi, which > >>> I am > >>> proud to have published in a magazine I co-edited many years ago. I don't > >>> believe it follows a single one of your rules, nor does it follow the > >>> conventional syllable count, but it blows my mind: > >>> > >>> Don't look at my face. > >>> No change, just large bills. > >>> One wrong move will be your last. > >>> ________________________________________________________________________ > >>> Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security > >>> tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, > >>> free AOL Mail and more. > >>> > >> > > > > > >-- > >http://hyperhypo.org/blog > >http://www.pftborder.blogspot.com > -- http://hyperhypo.org/blog http://www.pftborder.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 10:11:05 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: haiku In-Reply-To: <750c78460702100749t49b9711foefef477de16edee1@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Dan, you didn't say nuthin wrong! And atrocious poetry of any stripe ought to be called out for what it is. In all, it seems to me that it's beneficial to examine publicly what the commitment to form (or formalism) might be on a list such as this one, and we can expect, and should tolerate, a range of responses to same. At any rate, I certainly feel I've learned from this exchange. Best, Joe >To borrow a word someone used in an offline message regarding my >statement, I will defer to your rebuttal, Joe. I didn't mean to speak >in absolutes, nor to imply that anyone except the poet should have to >be aware of their knowledge of form, history, etc. Speaking only of >the haiku form, it seems to have gotten a particularly bad, >trivializing, rap. There are so many haikus out there that are >atrocious, and rather than see the atrociousness of the poem as a >singular (repeated many times over) occurrence, the form itself gets >triviailized, Hallmarkized. > >To all, I'm sorry if my statement was at odds with the guiding >principles of the Poetics list. I should have thought it through >further before posting. I certainly am not one to prescribe any >quantified amount of poetic knowledge, or proscribe any >experimentation or subversion of form. But I always hope it will be >done thoughtfully, and with purpose. > >On 2/9/07, Joe Amato wrote: >>But Dan, how would you *know* whether a *poet* knows "the history of >>the poem, its implications" etc.? -- unless of course you feel you >>can glean same from a reading of (e.g.) the poem itself? >> >>Stephen Vincent makes the proper point, in any case, even against >>MDW's reasoned argument in favor of such knowledge. >> >>This is, after all, a list devoted to discussing "those directions in >>poetry that are committed to innovations, renovations, and >>investigations of form and/or/as content, to the questioning of >>received forms and styles, and to the creation of the >>otherwise unimagined, untried, unexpected, improbable, and >>impossible." (I quote from the Poetics List Welcome Message.) >> >>The question before us is a typical question, really, applicable to >>haiku or to any rec'd form: at what point is taking liberties deemed >>acceptable, or unacceptable, and why? >> >>There are surely histories of poetry, in the U.S. (e.g.), in the 20th >>century (e.g.) -- a history of resistance to received forms -- to >>suggest that some (of us) will be inclined to mess with rec'd forms, >>with (or without) the possession of such knowledge. Whether the >>results are successful, well -- they're not not successful simply b/c >>they've deviated from the norm. If you think you can read a given >>example and suss out whether the poet has *not* acted with sufficient >>knowledge, very well then. But that's a mite tougher to do, and to >>argue, than simply to compare and contrast with what the formal rules >>might say such items ought to attempt. Pardon me, but simple >>deviation from the norm does not (as I see it) an unsuccessful poem >>make, haiku or otherwise, nor does it suggest a lack of associated >>knowledge. >> >>That said, I opt for as much knowledge of the formal rules as one has >>a stomach for. >> >>At any rate, I daresay it will require a much more sophisticated >>approach to form generally to persuade most on this list not to mess >>with rec'd form. Where I part company with MDW is in my assertion >>that haiku are no different, finally, than sonnets (or any other >>poetic form) insofar as the inherent legitimacy of altering >>associated constraints. Again, how is one to *prove* that one has the >>knowledge sufficient to being granted license (poetic license) to >>alter form? Or, again, are we saying that all such knowledge will be >>evident in the poetry itself? One way to almost guarantee that nobody >>messes with form is to argue that a given poem must exhibit evidence >>of such knowledge. >> >>I hope you all see the conundrum at work here. So, I'd like someone >>to explain to me -- seriously now -- why some of the haiku posted >>here DON'T work when understood as "questioning of received forms and >>styles" (see above). Or even better, how it is that some of the haiku >>posted here, lionized or no, do *not* reveal sufficient knowledge of >>haiku. >> >>Unless the problem is simply one of naming -- i.e., that we ought not >>to call a haiku that which merely resembles same -- then a judgment >>is being made as to how best to approach this matter of poetic form, >>and resistance thereto. That's not pertinent simply to haiku -- that >>strikes at the heart of what a list like this is supposed to be about. >> >>Best, >> >>Joe >> >>>I think the writer is reacting to Bowering's and Schwabsky's lionizing >>>of Padgett's and Violi's poems, respectively, and not the poems >>>themeselves. >>> >>>I agree with Vincent that morphing is necessary, but MDW makes a good >>>point, one that shouldn't have to be made. Know the history of the >>>poem, its implications and subtleties, and THEN subvert it. >>> >>>On 2/9/07, Davey Volner wrote: >>>>I trust the writer understands that both Violi's haiku and Padgett's are >>>>satirical? >>>> >>>>On 2/9/07, Michael Dylan Welch wrote: >>>>> >>>>> If Paul Violi's "Don't look at my face. / No change, just large bills. / >>>>> One wrong move will be your last." poem blows your mind, wonderful. It's >>>>> quite arresting, I agree. But it's not because it has anything >>>>>to do with >>>>> haiku (except for the obvious overlap with haiku of having >>>>>brevity, which >>>> > gives the poem focus). So the problem here is either you or the poet >>>>> labelling it as a haiku. For an overview of reasons why it has >>>>>little to do >>>>> with haiku, see my online essay "Becoming a Haiku Poet" ( >>>> > http://www.haikuworld.org/begin/mdwelch.apr2003.html). Or see the 2005 >>>>> edition of *Poet's Market* (Writer's Digest Books, 2004), in >>>>>which I have an >>>>> essay on haiku and applying its techniques and aesthetics to >>>>>the writing of >>>>> longer poetry. Comments welcome. >>>>> >>>>> By the way, wordplay on "low-ku," "noir-coup," or whatever, is another >>>>> mark of haiku poetasters. So are most poems about haiku. I went >>>>>through this >>>>> stage, too. But I got over it. This is the kind of trivia I >>>>>got over (from >>>>> the esteemed pen of Mr. Daniel Zimmerman): >>>>> >>>>> flag haiku >>>>> >>>>> one two three four five >>>>> six seven eight nine ten e- >>>>> leven twelve thirteen >>>>> >>>>> A wee bit of reseach in haiku literature would reveal, by the way, that >>>>> haiku nearly never have titles, and there are important reasons why. As >>>>> Charlie Rossiter says, do some *serious* research and study of the genre >>>>> before proclaiming work as being haiku, let alone saying that you "don't >>>>> think there can be a haiku better" than the example by Paul >>>>>Violi. As strong >>>>> as Violi's poem may be as poetry, and as clear as its virtues >>>>>are (I could >>>>> see myself publishing it too), it has nearly nothing to do >>>>>with haiku, and >>>>> is easily torn apart for failing as haiku. >>>>> >>>>> And a quick, respectful message to George (Bowering): You say, "Best US >>>>> haiku I know is Ron Padgett's:" >>>>> >>>>> Seven syllables >>>>> Eleven syllables >>>>> Seven syllables >>>>> >>>>> I have to hope your tongue is in your cheek. But if so, why? >>>>>Why promote a >>>>> poem that doesn't take the genre seriously? If you mean to damn >>>>>all American >>>>> poems by favouring such an obviously clueless one, then that seems to >>>>> suggest an unfamiliarity with the best haiku written in English. >>>>>And if your >>>>> tongue's not in your cheek, why would you say this is a good >>>>>haiku? Have you >>>>> read Cor van den Heuvel's *Haiku Anthology*, just for starters? >>>>> >>>>> For a slightly dated annotated list of recommended books on haiku, visit >>>>> http://mensaww.org/HaikuBooks.htm. >>>>> >>>>> Chris Stroffolino also writes that one of the "shorthand >>>>>staples of early >> >>> 20th c.---eliot's objective >>>>> correlative? or no ideas but in things?" . . . "seems to distort/reduce >>>>> too the haiku suggestiveness." >>>>> >>>>> I would answer by saying this: Because haiku -- perhaps more than any >>>>> other poetry (because it's so short) -- relies on the emotive >>>>>power behind >> >>> things, the notion of the objective correlative increases its >>>>>suggestiveness >> >>> rather than distort or reduce it. We have an immediate >>reaction to the word >>>>> chair that's different, say, than our reaction to the word >>>>>soup. And think, >>>>> too, of how we react differently to "easy chair" compared with "electric >>>>> chair." I'm just naming things with these examples, but these objects >>>>> correlate to immediate emotions or feelings, or connotations and >>>>> associations. Even a "stone" will carry some feeling for us when >>>>>we read the >>>>> word in a poem, though of course the nature of that feeling >>>>>may vary from >>>>> person to person. There's more to the concept of the objective >>>>>correlative >>>>> than just this, of course, but haiku relies on the emotive >>>>>power of things >>>>> perhaps more strongly than other poetry. To the extent that >>>>>haiku is mostly >>>>> objective, focusing on nouns a >>>>> nd things such as they are (yet presented in such a way to imply a >>>>> relationship and an intuitive feeling), haiku strongly rely on >>>>>the emotive >>>>> weight associated with each thing named in the poem. Certainly there are >>>>> subjective or nonliteral elements in some haiku (such as in >>>>>Shiki's poem, >>>>> "for me going / for you staying / two autumns," or Basho's >>>>>haiku about the >>>>> cicada's cries piercing the rocks), but not every haiku is or >>>>>needs to be >>>>> strictly objective. It's a matter of finding balance, within >>>>>each poem, and >>>>> in a particular poem relative to other poems. They are examples of >>>>> controlling the objectivity and subjectivity, and typically, >>>>>where there's a >>>>> subjective element in haiku, it's usually in the context of >>>>>something that's >>>> > clearly objective -- something that grounds the rest of the poem so the >>>>> subjective element isn't overpowering. >>>>> >>>>> Sure, you can do ____ (whatever: fill in the blank) in a haiku >>>>>-- but not >>>> > necessarily often (heck, even have a title once in a very rare >>>>while, if it >>>>> somehow really needs it). Haiku is not a strict set of rules >>>>>(don't think >>>>> that I think it is). Rather, haiku is a field of multiple targets, and a >>>>> good haiku will hit multiple targets at once, but not necessarily all of >>>>> them -- and occasionally miss one or two of them (on purpose) >>>>>that certain >>>>> people might feel are more important and should never be >>>>>missed. That's why >>>>> it's good to see haiku as a continuum with other kinds of poetry. Poetry >>>>> first, labels later (if at all). But, I hasten to say, as soon >>>>>as you label >>>>> something as haiku, it had better be a proper understanding of >>>>>haiku that >>>>> you mean -- and for too many folks, that's not the case. >>>>> >>>>> Michael >>>>> P.S. To discuss another poem offered here, from Eric ( >>>>> mr.eric.yost@GMAIL.COM): >>>>> >>>>> Golf Haiku >>>>> >>>>> Robin watches drive, >>>>> waits until I leave the tee, >>>>> probes divot for worm. >>>>> >>>>> Here are some problems with this "haiku" (which I would hope would be >>>>> among the 1,000 haiku one writes before trying to publish any -- >>>>>a task that >>>>> haiku writer Jim Kacian set for himself): >>>>> >>>>> 1. It has a title, which haiku avoid (and in this case, the title is >>>>> redundant -- we know from the poem that it's about golf, and >>>>>we don't need >>>>> to be condescended to and be told it's a haiku; in other >>>>>"haiku" that have >>>>> titles, the title is a sort of cheating -- adding a fourth line). >>>>> 2. It drops natural articles in the first and third lines (a robin, a/my >>>>> drive, the divot). Paul O. Williams, writing in *The Nick of >>>>>Time: Essays on >>>>> Haiku Aeshetics*, calls this tontoism. It arises when a person is >>>>> insufficiently accomplished at crafting the poem to make it >>>>>properly fit a >>>>> form (if they wish to follow a prescribed syllable count), or >>>>>if they think >> >>> somehow that it's "better" simply to be briefer (if they're >>not following a >>>>> set form). Ted Kooser has written that a good poem is like looking at >>>>> tropical fish through the bottom of a glass-bottom boat, and >>>>>that you don't >>>>> want things to clatter down onto the glass as you look, or see >>>>>smudges on >> >>> the glass, and thus make you aware of where you're looking from. >> >>>Rather, you >>>>> want to be totally absorbed in what you're seeing, to >>>>>experience IT as much >>>>> as possible. As soon as you resort to tontoism, you show the >>>>>apparatus, the >>>>> scaffolding, and also reveal that following an arbitrary syllable >>>>>count like >>>>> an obedient school bo >>>>> y is more important than crafting good content. (Let form be >>>>>an extension >>>>> of content!) The words of a good poem should be as invisible >>>>>as possible, >>>>> letting you feel the meaning or experience the image as >>>>>sharply as possible >>>>> -- this is why haiku is sometimes called the "wordless poem" >>>>>(Alan Watts; >>>>> Eric Amann). My goodness, the haiku crime of tontoism should >>>>>be punishable >>>>> by a lifetime of having to listen to Rod McKuen poetry speeded up to >>>>> chipmunk speed. That's such a basic matter of crafting. I would have >>>>> expected better on this discussion list. >>>>> 3. It is presented as a sentence (ending with a period, even), and is >>>>> oblivious to the fragmentary nature of haiku. Starting with a lowercase >>>>> letter in this case would also prevent the misreading of "Robin" as a >>>>> person's name, which muddies the interpretation of this poem. >>>>>The lopping >>>>> off of the article ("a robin") is another contributor to the >>>>>wooliness in >>>>> this line. >>>>> 4. It lacks the two-part juxtapositional structure that focuses our >>>>> attention on a specific emotion that we can figure out (the poem lacks >>>>> implication and reverberation). Haiku, too, are usually not >>>>>narrative like >>>>> this one, and are usually best if they avoid a cause/effect >>>>>presentation. >>>>> 5. The poem is choppy and awkward. >>>>> 6. Because of the worm, I suppose we can imagine it's spring or summer >>>>> (I'd have to check the history of "worm" as a seasonal >>>>>indicator), but the >>>>> seasonal element isn't strong here. (That doesn't bother me too much, >>>> > though.) A strong seasonal element, however, can greatly >>>>deepen the effect >>>>> of a poem by tapping into seasonal or natural archetypes, and >>>>>alluding to >>>> > other poems about the same subject (allusion and a technique known as >>>>> honkodori is common in Japanese poetry). >>>>> 7. The biggest problem is that this is a so-what poem. There's no >>>>> implication, nothing for the reader to figure out. I like the image well >>>>> enough -- that a bird is waiting for your divot to look for >>>>>worms (that's >>>>> either a smart robin, or a lazy one). But that's all there is >>>>>too it, and >>>>> it's obfuscated by the awkward and unnecessary syntax, all in >>>>>the name of >>>>> 5-7-5. But something more needs to be left out, to be implied. >>>>>Consider, for >>>>> example, this poem: "an old woolen sweater / taken yarn by >>>>>yarn / from the >>>>> snowbank." When students in my classes figure out that it's about a bird >>>>> taking bits of yarn for a nest in spring, their faces light up with >>>>> realization -- they "get it." Yet no bird is mentioned. Most of >>>>>the time, if >>>>> a haiku doesn't leave something out to be "got," then it fails >>>>>as a haiku, >>>>> no matter how well the objectivity or subjectivity is controlled, >>>>>whether it >>>>> employs a kigo or kireji equivalent, or shasei (sketching form life) >>>>> techniques -- and more. And through al >>>>> l of this, of course, it's irrelevant whether the poem is 5-7-5 or not. >>>>> >>>>> On the good side, this poem is objective, but the POINT of using >>>>> objectivity is to create some sort of subjective reaction -- an >>>>>emotional or >>>>> intuitive moment. And this poem feels too shallow in its use >>>>>of objective >>>>> description to have created enough of a leap, overtones, or >>>>>reverberation. >>>>> It's got a greater starter image for a haiku, that haiku don't end with >>>>> images, they start with them. >> >>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 07:12:09 +0000 >>>>> From: Barry Schwabsky >>>>> Subject: Re: haiku >>>>> >>>>> I don't think there can a haiku better than this one by Paul >>>>>Violi, which >>>>> I am >>>>> proud to have published in a magazine I co-edited many years >>>>>ago. I don't >> >>> believe it follows a single one of your rules, nor does it follow the >> >>> conventional syllable count, but it blows my mind: >>>>> >>>>> Don't look at my face. >>>>> No change, just large bills. >>>>> One wrong move will be your last. >>>>> ________________________________________________________________________ >>>>> Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety >>>>>and security >>>>> tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from >>>>>across the web, >>>>> free AOL Mail and more. >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>-- >>>http://hyperhypo.org/blog >>>http://www.pftborder.blogspot.com >> > > >-- >http://hyperhypo.org/blog >http://www.pftborder.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 17:28:10 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anny Ballardini Subject: Re: Anna Nicole Smith In-Reply-To: <013701c74d14$ac5bf1e0$6400a8c0@REN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Tabloid culture is the easiest and juciest way to talk and talk and talk, rumbling mouths nothing to do with the Talking Heads, nor with Aaron Belz or Alan Sondheim, so long, On 2/10/07, Ren Powell wrote: > > Alison, > > > > It wouldn't surprise me if I am the one being presumptive. I have been > lately. I apologize. > > > > I do also have an overdeveloped defence response to stereotypes regarding > the tabloid mentality associated with Americans. > > > > A lot of things assumed to be Americanization are actually not. Like > reality > television. > > > > Seeing that this listserv is Buffalo.edu, it seems to me unnecessary for > anyone posting "our" to be compelled to preface it with "as Americans". > > So, reading a posting which objects to this, which expresses a > dissociation > from ANS based on national cultural identity. . . I do (perhaps > mistakenly) > draw a conclusion regarding the person's motivation to do so. > > > > And now I'm going to keep my fingers still and go back to reading what > everyone has to say about poetry. > > > > Apologies again, > > > > Ren > > > > > > > > > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 11:33:56 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Dylan Welch Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As I understand it, Japanese is not accented the way English or Latin is. Thus each "syllable" of a multisyllable word is generally pronounced evenly in Japanese. The Japanese word for a species of cuckoo, hototogisu, has each syllable pronounced evenly, which is part of its music. As a more common example, the word for cherry blossom, sakura, has each of its syllables at about the same pitch and length. It's *not* sa-KU-ra. Nor is it SA-ku-ra (like the beginning of "saccharine"). And of course it's also not "sa-ku-RA." On the other hand, some Japanese people drop or greatly minimize the last syllable in some words when speaking (even though they would still count that sound in haiku). Thus I've often heard a Japanese person speak of "haik" (with an extremely subtle "u" after the "k") when they mean "haiku" -- or they might say "hototogeese" (though with a very quick "geese") and barely say the "oo" sound that normally follows in "hototogisu." If you ask the question "Desu ka," it typically sounds like "Des-ka." Otherwise, though, I think the sounds are fairly even. I know other words and phrases are commonly shortened or combined, but that's more of a colloquial compression of language than a variance in pronunciation. Not sure what you're after when you ask for "an example of how a haiku *should* read." Michael In a message dated 02-Feb-07 9:01:40 PM Pacific Standard Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU writes: Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 10:16:44 -0600 From: "Tom W. Lewis" Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match There's a "three-mora rule" (Dreimorengesetz) for ancient Greek and Latin words -- does the same go for Japanese?=20 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreimorengesetz) Could I get a good translation, taking into account the quantities of the Japanese original, as an example of how a haiku *should* read?=20 tl veteran (pseudo-)haiku warrior ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 12:21:33 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Dylan Welch Subject: Re: haiku MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Again, "Haiku" doesn't need to be treated with a capital. It's not a proper noun. If I'm static and humourless, well, shucks, I'll try to let my hair down for you when I can. If I seem static, that's because I'm advocating for a position out of years of study, and positing that against some serious misunderstandings. What you say of Violi's poems is all true, but true of the poem as a POEM, not as a haiku. Yup, that's "static" -- or "rigid," you might say. Look, a rose is not a chrysanthemum. That's all I'm trying to say. Why assert that the poem is a haiku, when it clearly lacks understanding of haiku's history, aesthetics, and various other understandings? Why persist with what I might guess is a misunderstanding of the genre, indicated, among other things, by something as simple as treating the name of the genre as a proper noun when it isn't? I hesitate to say there's some arrogant ignorance going on here, but there does seem to be some resistance to the serious research that Charlie and I have encouraged. Sure, the poem is haiku-like, if you want to say that. But that's an important distinction from claiming it as a haiku, and a far cry from claiming it to be about the best haiku ever. I'm a lot less static as you might think, except that from your perspective it may look that way. But over the years, as I've learned different things about haiku (and still have much to learn), I've definitely evolved and changed my ideas on things. I used to think of haiku as a Zen art (a long time ago). I know better now. I used to think haiku was a nature poem. Well, actually, it's a *seasonal* reference that haiku is generally after, and nature just comes along for the ride (though of course it's true, therefore, that it IS mostly a nature poem, but not always). And I could list a few more changed understandings. But because the location of where my perspective is evolving is down the track from where it seems you are, the distance between our perspectives probably makes my stance seem static. The movement of my train seems so slight to you because I'm probably at a different place on the haiku track from where you are, and the distance between us flatens your ability to detect my movement. I assure you my stance is not static, because even your claiming that I'm static encourages me to re-examine my perspectives to see if that's true, and to try to be responsive to that thought. Believe me, I find it really boring and imitative to write the "branches, leaves, blossoms and bird" forms of haiku. I'm not advocxzating that at all (perhaps you thought I was?!?). No, I'm advocating a deeper understanding of haiku as a subset of "poetry," which thereby distinguishes Violi's poem from haiku. Most of the time, such a distinction wouldn't matter (how's that for a bit of not being static?), except for the fact that you claimed the poem as haiku -- and not just haiku, but a really darn good one. Not only is it not a darn good one, but it's not even a haiku at all. At most, it's hit just one of the many targets for haiku (brevity), but that single overlap with haiku should not be confused with it's being haiku, which necessitates hitting quite a few more haiku targets than that. It's a great little poem, but I see startling and fresh little poems like that all the time in the best haiku journals (and some of "branches, leaves, blossoms and bird" poems -- and they can still have their appeal to some folks, or have mild variations that can make them succeed). You try writing a cherry blossom haiku -- it's very hard to do with originality and freshness. I appreciate that you're seeing my advocation for a formally true haiku, yet seeing that I don't mean a 5-7-5 formalism (I hope). If my perspective is claustrophobic to you (or others), I suppose that may be true. But believe me, I appreciate all sorts of short poems for what they are, without needing to apply a label to them (as with Violi's poem). My feeling is that you can't fling poetry labels around willy-nilly based on a limited understanding of the label. Doing so without sufficient understanding of the history and aesthetics of haiku, for example, dilutes the notion of what haiku is. If poets try to speak carefully, you'd think they'd speak not only with care in their words, but with a responsibility towards the words that takes ownership for understanding their meaning. In the case of haiku, there's a serious disconnect between popular perceptions and reality. In Japan, at your assertion that Violi's poem is a haiku, they would do one of two things: immediately and politely agree with you to your face (perhaps like saying to a child, yes dear, the sun is purple -- what a lovely drawing), or they would dismiss it without a thought. I can hear you saying that there can be purple suns in haiku. I'm all for creativity and poetic license -- believe it or not. But only when it comes from a position of understanding, not ignorance, about haiku and its history and aesthetics. Basho said to learn the rules and then forget them (meaning, to internalize them so thoroughly that you no longer have to think about them). In your case, meaning to be as polite as I say this, it seems you haven't learned the rules yet. Consider the following throughts on mastery and understanding, thoughts that probably apply to any literature, or any art or craft. I think most people progress through the following steps with their art, including poetry: 1. Unconscious incompetence (the person doesn't know that he isn't competent or doesn't understand). 2. Conscious incompetence (the person realizes that he isn't competent -- the door is now open to learning). 3. Conscious competence (the person has to consciously work at being competent -- it doesn't yet come naturally). 4. Unconscious competence (the person has internalized effective techniques so well that he no longer has to think about it, the way a quarterback doesn't have to think about how to throw a good spiral -- this is what I think Basho meant by "learn the rules and then forget them"). Since you urge morphing, why is it you resist morphing your understanding of haiku? The question here isn't adherence to any kind of orthodox behaviour, but that too many people proceed with behaviour they think is orthodox (thinking they know what a haiku is) when it isn't. See the difference? As for being humourless, well, I've always known I can't tell a joke to save the queen. I am in earnest, obviously. But you won't find me as inflexible as you seem to think. Good wishes, Michael In a message dated 09-Feb-07 9:04:30 PM Pacific Standard Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU writes: Maybe with my good Protestant origins, I have never been at home with adherence to any kind of orthodox system of behavior, but I find your insistences about Haiku (origins and form) static and humorless. Occasionally I work among elderly Chinese emigrants here in San Francisco, and indeed, for example, in making watercolors, many of them continue to adhere unwaveringly to 'branches, leaves, blossoms and bird' forms - sometimes attractive but boring, boring, rigid, etc. At best you want to tear up the pages and introduce students to the fresh experience of montage, collage, etc. Such as with Violi's haiku - the juxtaposition of what he has done against conventional content is startling, refreshing - a response that I find with what I can only sense to be 'good' translations of 'ancient' haiku. Much of which I suspect Paul Violi and many of us have been variably interested readers - whether via Pound, Rexroth, Waley & on. Your argument for a formally true Haiku, seems as claustrophobic to me as someone who might argue - with similar orthodox leanings - that Coltrane, Rollins, etc., etc. are not making authentic "ballads". Morph, my friend, morph - it is, from my experience, at least, a mutable, non-static universe of which the contemporary spirit and practice of haiku is inextricably involved. Stephen Vincent http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 13:14:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: haiku In-Reply-To: <909502.2793.qm@web86001.mail.ird.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Barry, Actually, both Paul's and Ron's poems reflect their sensibilities and styles as poets: Paul's up your face clarity, Ron's understating, ant-heroic ethos, for instance, a wonderful poem about how to sweep the floor. They are Paul and Ron poems before they are haiku. In English, Haiku does imply brevity, a certain sudden cut in point of view, which can be ironic or in rare successful cases metaphysical. Does any one rememberthe wonderful haiku in the movie Miami Blues where the Alec Baldwin character is robbing a house (breaking and entering...)? Ciao, Murat On 2/10/07, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > > At least in the case of Paul's poem, I don't think that's true at all. It > is quite funny, but not satirical. For me, it is profound expression of the > human condition, if you don't mind me putting it like that. (I know that > sounds a bit old-fashioned.) Also, contrary to what someone else said, I > don't see any real narrative in it. It conjures an image with which one is > familiar from narratives (movies, tv) about bank robberies, but nothing is > narrated, there is no before or after, no chain of events: just a moment in > which one is suddenly faced with something. > > Regarding Ron's poem, with which I was previously unfamiliar, I also > doubt that the intention behind it is mainly satirical. It's pretty dry for > that, after all. It seems more to be about pure formalism and its paradoxes, > in a manner reminiscent of certain early '70s conceptual art, such as some > of Dan Graham's text works. But as I said, this is just a first impression > as far as Ron's poem goes. > > Finally, I have to say to the person who used the childish gesture of > putting scare quotes around the word "poem" when writing about these > efforts--whether one find them successful or not is another thing: the > reactionary attitude this betrays is its own counterargument. > > > Davey Volner wrote: > I trust the writer understands that both Violi's haiku and Padgett's are > satirical? > > On 2/9/07, Michael Dylan Welch wrote: > > > > If Paul Violi's "Don't look at my face. / No change, just large bills. / > > One wrong move will be your last." poem blows your mind, wonderful. It's > > quite arresting, I agree. But it's not because it has anything to do > with > > haiku (except for the obvious overlap with haiku of having brevity, > which > > gives the poem focus). So the problem here is either you or the poet > > labelling it as a haiku. For an overview of reasons why it has little to > do > > with haiku, see my online essay "Becoming a Haiku Poet" ( > > http://www.haikuworld.org/begin/mdwelch.apr2003.html). Or see the 2005 > > edition of *Poet's Market* (Writer's Digest Books, 2004), in which I > have an > > essay on haiku and applying its techniques and aesthetics to the writing > of > > longer poetry. Comments welcome. > > > > By the way, wordplay on "low-ku," "noir-coup," or whatever, is another > > mark of haiku poetasters. So are most poems about haiku. I went through > this > > stage, too. But I got over it. This is the kind of trivia I got over > (from > > the esteemed pen of Mr. Daniel Zimmerman): > > > > flag haiku > > > > one two three four five > > six seven eight nine ten e- > > leven twelve thirteen > > > > A wee bit of reseach in haiku literature would reveal, by the way, that > > haiku nearly never have titles, and there are important reasons why. As > > Charlie Rossiter says, do some *serious* research and study of the genre > > before proclaiming work as being haiku, let alone saying that you "don't > > think there can be a haiku better" than the example by Paul Violi. As > strong > > as Violi's poem may be as poetry, and as clear as its virtues are (I > could > > see myself publishing it too), it has nearly nothing to do with haiku, > and > > is easily torn apart for failing as haiku. > > > > And a quick, respectful message to George (Bowering): You say, "Best US > > haiku I know is Ron Padgett's:" > > > > Seven syllables > > Eleven syllables > > Seven syllables > > > > I have to hope your tongue is in your cheek. But if so, why? Why promote > a > > poem that doesn't take the genre seriously? If you mean to damn all > American > > poems by favouring such an obviously clueless one, then that seems to > > suggest an unfamiliarity with the best haiku written in English. And if > your > > tongue's not in your cheek, why would you say this is a good haiku? Have > you > > read Cor van den Heuvel's *Haiku Anthology*, just for starters? > > > > For a slightly dated annotated list of recommended books on haiku, visit > > http://mensaww.org/HaikuBooks.htm. > > > > Chris Stroffolino also writes that one of the "shorthand staples of > early > > 20th c.---eliot's objective > > correlative? or no ideas but in things?" . . . "seems to distort/reduce > > too the haiku suggestiveness." > > > > I would answer by saying this: Because haiku -- perhaps more than any > > other poetry (because it's so short) -- relies on the emotive power > behind > > things, the notion of the objective correlative increases its > suggestiveness > > rather than distort or reduce it. We have an immediate reaction to the > word > > chair that's different, say, than our reaction to the word soup. And > think, > > too, of how we react differently to "easy chair" compared with "electric > > chair." I'm just naming things with these examples, but these objects > > correlate to immediate emotions or feelings, or connotations and > > associations. Even a "stone" will carry some feeling for us when we read > the > > word in a poem, though of course the nature of that feeling may vary > from > > person to person. There's more to the concept of the objective > correlative > > than just this, of course, but haiku relies on the emotive power of > things > > perhaps more strongly than other poetry. To the extent that haiku is > mostly > > objective, focusing on nouns a > > nd things such as they are (yet presented in such a way to imply a > > relationship and an intuitive feeling), haiku strongly rely on the > emotive > > weight associated with each thing named in the poem. Certainly there are > > subjective or nonliteral elements in some haiku (such as in Shiki's > poem, > > "for me going / for you staying / two autumns," or Basho's haiku about > the > > cicada's cries piercing the rocks), but not every haiku is or needs to > be > > strictly objective. It's a matter of finding balance, within each poem, > and > > in a particular poem relative to other poems. They are examples of > > controlling the objectivity and subjectivity, and typically, where > there's a > > subjective element in haiku, it's usually in the context of something > that's > > clearly objective -- something that grounds the rest of the poem so the > > subjective element isn't overpowering. > > > > Sure, you can do ____ (whatever: fill in the blank) in a haiku -- but > not > > necessarily often (heck, even have a title once in a very rare while, if > it > > somehow really needs it). Haiku is not a strict set of rules (don't > think > > that I think it is). Rather, haiku is a field of multiple targets, and a > > good haiku will hit multiple targets at once, but not necessarily all of > > them -- and occasionally miss one or two of them (on purpose) that > certain > > people might feel are more important and should never be missed. That's > why > > it's good to see haiku as a continuum with other kinds of poetry. Poetry > > first, labels later (if at all). But, I hasten to say, as soon as you > label > > something as haiku, it had better be a proper understanding of haiku > that > > you mean -- and for too many folks, that's not the case. > > > > Michael > > P.S. To discuss another poem offered here, from Eric ( > > mr.eric.yost@GMAIL.COM): > > > > Golf Haiku > > > > Robin watches drive, > > waits until I leave the tee, > > probes divot for worm. > > > > Here are some problems with this "haiku" (which I would hope would be > > among the 1,000 haiku one writes before trying to publish any -- a task > that > > haiku writer Jim Kacian set for himself): > > > > 1. It has a title, which haiku avoid (and in this case, the title is > > redundant -- we know from the poem that it's about golf, and we don't > need > > to be condescended to and be told it's a haiku; in other "haiku" that > have > > titles, the title is a sort of cheating -- adding a fourth line). > > 2. It drops natural articles in the first and third lines (a robin, a/my > > drive, the divot). Paul O. Williams, writing in *The Nick of Time: > Essays on > > Haiku Aeshetics*, calls this tontoism. It arises when a person is > > insufficiently accomplished at crafting the poem to make it properly fit > a > > form (if they wish to follow a prescribed syllable count), or if they > think > > somehow that it's "better" simply to be briefer (if they're not > following a > > set form). Ted Kooser has written that a good poem is like looking at > > tropical fish through the bottom of a glass-bottom boat, and that you > don't > > want things to clatter down onto the glass as you look, or see smudges > on > > the glass, and thus make you aware of where you're looking from. Rather, > you > > want to be totally absorbed in what you're seeing, to experience IT as > much > > as possible. As soon as you resort to tontoism, you show the apparatus, > the > > scaffolding, and also reveal that following an arbitrary syllable count > like > > an obedient school bo > > y is more important than crafting good content. (Let form be an > extension > > of content!) The words of a good poem should be as invisible as > possible, > > letting you feel the meaning or experience the image as sharply as > possible > > -- this is why haiku is sometimes called the "wordless poem" (Alan > Watts; > > Eric Amann). My goodness, the haiku crime of tontoism should be > punishable > > by a lifetime of having to listen to Rod McKuen poetry speeded up to > > chipmunk speed. That's such a basic matter of crafting. I would have > > expected better on this discussion list. > > 3. It is presented as a sentence (ending with a period, even), and is > > oblivious to the fragmentary nature of haiku. Starting with a lowercase > > letter in this case would also prevent the misreading of "Robin" as a > > person's name, which muddies the interpretation of this poem. The > lopping > > off of the article ("a robin") is another contributor to the wooliness > in > > this line. > > 4. It lacks the two-part juxtapositional structure that focuses our > > attention on a specific emotion that we can figure out (the poem lacks > > implication and reverberation). Haiku, too, are usually not narrative > like > > this one, and are usually best if they avoid a cause/effect > presentation. > > 5. The poem is choppy and awkward. > > 6. Because of the worm, I suppose we can imagine it's spring or summer > > (I'd have to check the history of "worm" as a seasonal indicator), but > the > > seasonal element isn't strong here. (That doesn't bother me too much, > > though.) A strong seasonal element, however, can greatly deepen the > effect > > of a poem by tapping into seasonal or natural archetypes, and alluding > to > > other poems about the same subject (allusion and a technique known as > > honkodori is common in Japanese poetry). > > 7. The biggest problem is that this is a so-what poem. There's no > > implication, nothing for the reader to figure out. I like the image well > > enough -- that a bird is waiting for your divot to look for worms > (that's > > either a smart robin, or a lazy one). But that's all there is too it, > and > > it's obfuscated by the awkward and unnecessary syntax, all in the name > of > > 5-7-5. But something more needs to be left out, to be implied. Consider, > for > > example, this poem: "an old woolen sweater / taken yarn by yarn / from > the > > snowbank." When students in my classes figure out that it's about a bird > > taking bits of yarn for a nest in spring, their faces light up with > > realization -- they "get it." Yet no bird is mentioned. Most of the > time, if > > a haiku doesn't leave something out to be "got," then it fails as a > haiku, > > no matter how well the objectivity or subjectivity is controlled, > whether it > > employs a kigo or kireji equivalent, or shasei (sketching form life) > > techniques -- and more. And through al > > l of this, of course, it's irrelevant whether the poem is 5-7-5 or not. > > > > On the good side, this poem is objective, but the POINT of using > > objectivity is to create some sort of subjective reaction -- an > emotional or > > intuitive moment. And this poem feels too shallow in its use of > objective > > description to have created enough of a leap, overtones, or > reverberation. > > It's got a greater starter image for a haiku, that haiku don't end with > > images, they start with them. > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 07:12:09 +0000 > > From: Barry Schwabsky > > Subject: Re: haiku > > > > I don't think there can a haiku better than this one by Paul Violi, > which > > I am > > proud to have published in a magazine I co-edited many years ago. I > don't > > believe it follows a single one of your rules, nor does it follow the > > conventional syllable count, but it blows my mind: > > > > Don't look at my face. > > No change, just large bills. > > One wrong move will be your last. > > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and > security > > tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the > web, > > free AOL Mail and more. > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 10:20:58 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: haiku / Vorticism In-Reply-To: <389054.54774.qm@web86006.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Re the impact of haiku & ways of perception shaped by Buddhist and other Asian (Indian) religious forms of meditation and literature on the making of modernism (Pound, etc.) I strongly recommend Eliot Weinberger's essay on Vorticism in a recent Chicago Review (#5?? - the also good Lisa Robertson issue) - the introduction of Yoga and Yogis at the Columbia Exposition in 1892 in Chicago and the subsequent publishing craze and influence, etc., I find real interesting. A must read. Which is also to say that David B-C's recent post about the relationship of Haiku to a manner of perceiving (regardless of arguments with the haiku formalists here) is an important contribution - a contemporary one that bears a strong relationship to the work of Kyger, Eigner, Whalen, Snyder, Welch and Grenier among many, many others. Stephen Vincent http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > I think Joe's point is well tak en. While this discussion has been very > instructive in many ways, we should not forget that this is list whose topic > is innovative poetics. I'm sure there are other lists available for the > promulgation of traditionalist poetics, and some of the same people might even > be on both lists, since there is no reason not to be interested in both. But > to the extent that we are not, at some point we just have to respectfully > agree to disagree, letting the discussions of traditionalist poetics continue > in whatever space is devoted to that and the discussions of innovative > poetics, whatever that turns out to be, move forward in this one. > > As for myself, I think that a good deal of that heat that's been generated > here hasto do with the "ownership" of the name "haiku." Although it would be > useful to me to have recourse to this name at certain times, it doesn't really > mean as much to me as it obviously does to some others, and therefore I'd just > as soon cede it to them. I don't know why, but somehow this all reminds me of > the dispute between Greece and one of the former Yugoslav republics over the > name "Macedonia." United Nations intervention has still not resolved this > issue. But when I lived in Italy, "macedonia" (small m) was the word for > "fruit salad"--an association with very positive connotations as far as I'm > concerned. So from now on I am going to avoid the use of the h-word to refer > to any poem using a 5-7-5 structure or any other similar short poem > whatsoever, except where this is unavoidable, such as when citing something > that someone else said. From now on, I promise to refer to all such poems as > "macedonia." > > > > > This is, after all, a list devoted to discussing "those directions in > poetry that are committed to innovations, renovations, and > investigations of form and/or/as content, to the questioning of > received forms and styles, and to the creation of the > otherwise unimagined, untried, unexpected, improbable, and > impossible." (I quote from the Poetics List Welcome Message.) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 14:42:33 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: Re: haiku and Anna Nicole Smith Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Thank you so much for your letter Anny Ballardini! Anna Nicole Smith is non-stop on cable news--and here at buffalo list, too--(though is the discussion here "innovative" and "questioning recieved forms and styles" and so actually superior to the tablod and news reporting?--the analysis by alan sondheim for example is given within abt first ten seconds by the tabloids, and then contually surpassed in as Anny writes, "talk talk talk talk"-- actually very much the talk talk talk and barrage of images interviews quotes--is the creation via Tragedy, of a Saint--being elevated into the Heavens of the Spectacle--the allusions which media makes and Anna Nicole continaully made to Mailyn --link her immediately to that Sainted image and sacrifical Tragedy--yet there are also many background murmruings of the ever onging Sanctification of Princess Di--and lost in the depths Jayne Mansfield as well, though she is a Lesser Saint than Marilyn and Di and Anna Nicole--(whose name also conjures resomating imagery of the tragic tall blonde Nicole Simpson Brown--)-- the Tragedy of the lowly little girl's frairy tale princess' dream and attainment of real Princess fame and fortune via beauty and wealthy, powerful men--(Jayne Mansfield married literally a "Strong Man"--famous body builder--and Jayne, like Anne Boleyn--decapitated though not by any King's decree other than those of the women who are the Fates)--and treacheries along the way of those who don't want to allow the princess to become a Queen--so that they die tragically, experience martyrdoms--and become beloved above all among "the people"--their loyal subjects as it were--and then transformed into Saints for the Adoration-- talk tlak tlak tlak and images images images--with scandal always attendent--mysteries of fathers, of children, courts of law--social barriers transgressed--the manipulation by media and media manipulation by "star"--it is an endless pagentry and each new princess/Saint contributes her own unique variations on the theme, on the relics, on the forms of Adoration and memorialization--each contributes to the enhancement of the others--for the glory of the firmaments where the Stars are existing in Eternal Light-- for secular fallen worlds, a new form of religion/opiate of the masses--and for the masters and mistreeses in charge, more pagentry, bread and circuses to keep "the people" from wanting to pay attention to the Bad news which is being jettisoned in all the pomp and glory, all the mysteries of fatherhood, of legal ranglings over Gold--posseions--and the mysterious deaths--natural/suicidal/murder by conspiracy--the triumph of the female Saint over the male desire to dominate and condemn and destroy them--the lovers who along the way adored or betrayed-Saint Joan and her Inquistors--burning at the stake and like Artaud's victim, signalling through the flames--before the Ascension-- so many powerful forces unleashed in the tabloid world's energies-- in the drug store the other night going from magazine cover to magaine cover, tabloid sheet to tabloid sheet cover--a whole procession of images of the Saints and martyrs among the Stars--their sufferings, weight, child, man, money, career dramas rising and falling in the melodramtic rhythms of a word/music/image ritualized ceremonial Stations of the Cross in a serial form--not just the imagery, but the use of words, their typogrpahies in the immense visual/sound serial feuillton poem/drama-- and who is still with one--stil going strong--LIZ!!!--since childhood LIZ has been there--ruling the living heavens--a kind of Patron Saint of the Tabloids--endlessly dy8ing almost and being reborn--endless finding husbands and lovers--and moving on to another one--so as never to be dull or boring by having tthe same againg companion--for her eteranl youth--Madonna has made a career out of running her own tabloids to go laong withthose that surround her--Demi--Katie--Barbara Mandrell (back with her stolen tour bus in the front page news--on cable----straight out of country song--)--Hillary--(lately joining the ones who seem destinied for their stops in rehab--according to some of the Tabloid iconogrpahy--)--Halle--Venus--Whitney--Oprah--Visitations by Mary, Our Lady of Guadalupe, Serena, Shakira--a long gallery of icons one passes by in the altar area of the cash register-alongside the little boxes for donations to various organizations for children's diseases-- and now Anna Nicole will for a while be the one whose Adoration will burn with the finest flame--for some months to come-- as she becomes a permanent part of the Spectacle of Stardom Sainthood--her Ascension attained--into that Eternal Company The Tabloids are really the Living Presence of ancient energies which negentropically regenerate--rther than run down--and continually gather more Saints, more intensity with each new form of media--icons of the Goddesses since times immemorial--Cleopatra--Helen of Troy-- in one of his autobriographical novels Blaise Cendrars writes of the forms of Tabloids and feuilleton photo-novels he finds in the farthest reaches of Brazil--and writes of how these--with the Stars, the monsters (aliens, Big Foot, etc--), the horoscopes and predictions of Nostradums, Book of revelations--how al these anceint "interprepations of dreams", love potions, methods of Better Health and Beauty--al of it, the belief in the stars of the Screen and of the Horoscopes--are al truly signs of the ancient world which have never been expunged for all the "progress" in history--but have only made uses of progress and progress made uses of them--to burn ever brighter, be ever more proliferating, ever more Glora in Excelsus -- re the discussion of haiku-- Joe--(message below)-- there is something rather paradoxically humorous about invoking the Words of the Welcome Message-- a number of writers have presented themselves as poets who are anti-the-rules and anti-the -forms --by inclination and style--of form in their own senses of form--renovators and innovators--in both the Spirit and Letter of the Law--of the List-- which actually if you think of it is a bit oxymoronic-- that is--the Rules of the List demand innovation, renovation, investigation questioning, creation possibly of the unimagined, untried, unexpected, impossible, improbale-- the Rules of the lLst--now arent some of the same people who invoke all sorts of rule breaking--the ones who are insisting on referrring back to the Rules?!-- i can't help it, i find this very funny-- for if one were a rule breaker in such Rules' context--wouldn't a way of breaking these rules be to consider seriously the rules of a form "untried, unimagined" by oneself??--let alone by the type of innovative poetry that is intended by the Rules-- (when there are rules re innovation, let alone renovation, investigation, --one knows implicity that this means only certain kinds of innovation will be recognized--leading to domination, denomination, demonization and many other forms of debilitation)-- if one is so opposed to rules, forms and classifications--why then quote a set of rules, and use said rules to as it were silence the claims of other forms of rules--?-- i mean if one is truly a rule breaker--wouldn't one also just chuck these rules, too?-- and listen to other rules of form, other forms of rules--rather simply One Form of Rlues, The Rule of One Form?--One Form Rules? (i .e. the "innovative, rneovative, investigative" one--yet--innovative, renovative, investigative--according to Whom--in the words of M. Foucault--to invoke a Voice of Authority so as to be a good Rule follower for the nonce as it were--, "Who Speaks?"--through the Message and Rules--whose innovation is one engaging with?-- what if one truly engaged in innovations which were of some other sort entirely?--truly being a rule breaker breaking rules? or is there fear of such "chaos" being introdced into the system, or fear of other rules than that of the Message-- why is it one cites these rules in order to turn a deaf ear as it were to a set of rules existing in an other form of poetry? does not the kind of innovation being asked for here consist of its own sets of rules? you see, if someone sends the Message to question, to investigate--Rules, Forms, Authorities-- does this not also entail a questioning of the authority, of the Rules--which are making this Call?--becuase one must, truly, if being embarked on quesdtoning, question who it is that is asking for investigations, innovations, questionings-- other swise one is still truly a follower of the Law, in spirit and letter--and not an independent questioner, but one doing so at the behest of others, for purposes which must be indeed perhaps for their benefit? i am writing this both very humourously and very seriously-- remember the period of "Let a Hundred Flowers Bloom" in China?-- a brillaint bit of work by Chairman Mao and company-- a Welcome Message as it were was sent out to al the people of China-- "Let a Hundred Flowers Bloom"--a new openness! everyone was encourgaed to come forward with their questionings, suggestions for innovations and renovations and investigations--for al voices to be rasied in order to have a great conversation, a great exchange openly of ideas--on how to renovate and innovative and redecorate and investigate the way things were being run by the sytem, by the great Chairman Welcomer Mao himself--each person who brought forward something of use for improving the existing sytem would be a great contributor to the cause, to the nation-- the excietment and joy with which this edict was met was incredible--people came forward with literally millions of suggestions, new ideas, things learned on how to improve this and that glitch-- and once they had al come out in the open, O Hundred Blooming Flowers- whack whack whack!!! off with their heads!! and a Hundred Flowers Doomed-- this is a true story, the life and death parable, which i always think of when i hear that there are rules for innovations-- because--look what happens--a person writing of an other form of poetry and trying to make clear its form, and advocate for a study of its history, examples, in order to understand it and to attempt a beginning of its practice-- is told--basically to stuff it--becuase the rule here is we don't have any uses for rules-- ("other than our own")-- so isn't one advocating that as the Rules say there are no other rules to be bothered about--than the Rule here-- isn't one becoming a kind of cop or soldier in the service of the Rule of the Rules--and so--ready and willing to chop off the heads of anything with other rules, and --one feels it is implied--with innovations which aren' t in the spirit of the kind of innovations being asked for by the Rules and its followers citiing them? do you see why i find this both very humourous and also a serious question? to really be questioning and investigating--one needs to be open to lsiten--to a great many forms and their sets of rules, to have an interest in learning and understandig what is different--just as one needs to question and investigate also what it means to be a rule breaker and yet a follower of Rules--how this might affect one's ability to have a questionng which leads to understanding-- rather than a questioning which leads to silencing, ridicule or willful ignorance and arrogance-- Yeats wrote that poetry comes from the struggle with oneself, rhetoric and politics of the argument with others-- the questioning and invetsigation--one needs to begin with oneself--am i really a rule breaker?--do i really believe in sometimes following the rules and sometimes not--and what helps me make these decisisons?--why do i reject the rules of form--yet advocate strongly the Rules of a list telling me to question them?-- do i question another's authority because it was one i am not familiar or interested in one? do i question the authority by which i claim authority to question the rules followed by others? if i am questionng the authority of others to set certain rules and abide by them-- why then do i not question myself for followng certain rules and abiding by them? is my authority to question others rules and authorities higher than their power to believe in them abide by them and create by them? and is my authority to question only based on a belief in the authority which allows me this form of questioning? what proofs do i have to make me believe my authority of rules is higher than that of others and their follwing theirs while i follow mine? am i nothing more than a blindly obediant follower of Rules when i say that others are? "some things are so serious that all one can do is laugh"--werner heisenberg--he of the Uncertainty Principle-- as the song says still i wonder still i wonder who'll stop the rain or as the old saying goes: "remember the first time you were ripped off by a head?" "question authority"--means al authorities--including the one telling you to question other's authority it means questining one's own authority so once i send this i am going to question my authority in sending this which isn't authority at all--other than experience in many coiuntries and situations--of many auhtorites of al forms --controlling one's existence or trying to convince one of one's freedoms-- auhtorites and rules exist--even when asking one to ask questions-- for purposes of their own just as charity is said to begin at home, so questioning is best begun at home--in oneself--and with the rules one is following on someone's authority in order to questions rules-- (i.e.--don't listen to me either!!)(remember the wise Russian Proverb President Reagan used to love to endlessly repeat and mispronounce?--"Trust, but Verify"!!!) you see--there are no free rides at the carnival-- if you think that there are-- then perhaps you have listened to a cunning old carnie con-- in the guise of something looking like a Benevolent Authority for all you may know-- without question and investigating=- and truly --remeber tohave some good laughs at all one finds in the funhouse mirror distortions within and without oneself-!!! in the sense of affectionate community- (and as the creator at one time of a series of zollage (xeroxed collage) zines called "NO ACCIDENT: The Journal of Extra-Sensory Paranoia") david-bc now back to my own tabloid life and work!!! >From: Joe Amato >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: haiku >Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 23:23:02 -0600 > >But Dan, how would you *know* whether a *poet* knows "the history of the >poem, its implications" etc.? -- unless of course you feel you can glean >same from a reading of (e.g.) the poem itself? > >Stephen Vincent makes the proper point, in any case, even against MDW's >reasoned argument in favor of such knowledge. > >This is, after all, a list devoted to discussing "those directions in >poetry that are committed to innovations, renovations, and investigations >of form and/or/as content, to the questioning of received forms and styles, >and to the creation of the >otherwise unimagined, untried, unexpected, improbable, and impossible." (I >quote from the Poetics List Welcome Message.) > >The question before us is a typical question, really, applicable to haiku >or to any rec'd form: at what point is taking liberties deemed acceptable, >or unacceptable, and why? > >There are surely histories of poetry, in the U.S. (e.g.), in the 20th >century (e.g.) -- a history of resistance to received forms -- to suggest >that some (of us) will be inclined to mess with rec'd forms, with (or >without) the possession of such knowledge. Whether the results are >successful, well -- they're not not successful simply b/c they've deviated >from the norm. If you think you can read a given example and suss out >whether the poet has *not* acted with sufficient knowledge, very well then. >But that's a mite tougher to do, and to argue, than simply to compare and >contrast with what the formal rules might say such items ought to attempt. >Pardon me, but simple deviation from the norm does not (as I see it) an >unsuccessful poem make, haiku or otherwise, nor does it suggest a lack of >associated knowledge. > >That said, I opt for as much knowledge of the formal rules as one has a >stomach for. > >At any rate, I daresay it will require a much more sophisticated approach >to form generally to persuade most on this list not to mess with rec'd >form. Where I part company with MDW is in my assertion that haiku are no >different, finally, than sonnets (or any other poetic form) insofar as the >inherent legitimacy of altering associated constraints. Again, how is one >to *prove* that one has the knowledge sufficient to being granted license >(poetic license) to alter form? Or, again, are we saying that all such >knowledge will be evident in the poetry itself? One way to almost guarantee >that nobody messes with form is to argue that a given poem must exhibit >evidence of such knowledge. > >I hope you all see the conundrum at work here. So, I'd like someone to >explain to me -- seriously now -- why some of the haiku posted here DON'T >work when understood as "questioning of received forms and styles" (see >above). Or even better, how it is that some of the haiku posted here, >lionized or no, do *not* reveal sufficient knowledge of haiku. > >Unless the problem is simply one of naming -- i.e., that we ought not to >call a haiku that which merely resembles same -- then a judgment is being >made as to how best to approach this matter of poetic form, and resistance >thereto. That's not pertinent simply to haiku -- that strikes at the heart >of what a list like this is supposed to be about. > >Best, > >Joe > >>I think the writer is reacting to Bowering's and Schwabsky's lionizing >>of Padgett's and Violi's poems, respectively, and not the poems >>themeselves. >> >>I agree with Vincent that morphing is necessary, but MDW makes a good >>point, one that shouldn't have to be made. Know the history of the >>poem, its implications and subtleties, and THEN subvert it. >> >>On 2/9/07, Davey Volner wrote: >>>I trust the writer understands that both Violi's haiku and Padgett's are >>>satirical? >>> >>>On 2/9/07, Michael Dylan Welch wrote: >>>> >>>> If Paul Violi's "Don't look at my face. / No change, just large bills. >>>>/ >>>> One wrong move will be your last." poem blows your mind, wonderful. >>>>It's >>>> quite arresting, I agree. But it's not because it has anything to do >>>>with >>>> haiku (except for the obvious overlap with haiku of having brevity, >>>>which >>> > gives the poem focus). So the problem here is either you or the poet >>>> labelling it as a haiku. For an overview of reasons why it has little >>>>to do >>>> with haiku, see my online essay "Becoming a Haiku Poet" ( >>> > http://www.haikuworld.org/begin/mdwelch.apr2003.html). Or see the >>>2005 >>>> edition of *Poet's Market* (Writer's Digest Books, 2004), in which I >>>>have an >>>> essay on haiku and applying its techniques and aesthetics to the >>>>writing of >>>> longer poetry. Comments welcome. >>>> >>>> By the way, wordplay on "low-ku," "noir-coup," or whatever, is another >>>> mark of haiku poetasters. So are most poems about haiku. I went >>>>through this >>>> stage, too. But I got over it. This is the kind of trivia I got over >>>>(from >>>> the esteemed pen of Mr. Daniel Zimmerman): >>>> >>>> flag haiku >>>> >>>> one two three four five >>>> six seven eight nine ten e- >>>> leven twelve thirteen >>>> >>>> A wee bit of reseach in haiku literature would reveal, by the way, >>>>that >>>> haiku nearly never have titles, and there are important reasons why. >>>>As >>>> Charlie Rossiter says, do some *serious* research and study of the >>>>genre >>>> before proclaiming work as being haiku, let alone saying that you >>>>"don't >>>> think there can be a haiku better" than the example by Paul Violi. As >>>>strong >>>> as Violi's poem may be as poetry, and as clear as its virtues are (I >>>>could >>>> see myself publishing it too), it has nearly nothing to do with haiku, >>>>and >>>> is easily torn apart for failing as haiku. >>>> >>>> And a quick, respectful message to George (Bowering): You say, "Best >>>>US >>>> haiku I know is Ron Padgett's:" >>>> >>>> Seven syllables >>>> Eleven syllables >>>> Seven syllables >>>> >>>> I have to hope your tongue is in your cheek. But if so, why? Why >>>>promote a >>>> poem that doesn't take the genre seriously? If you mean to damn all >>>>American >>>> poems by favouring such an obviously clueless one, then that seems to >>>> suggest an unfamiliarity with the best haiku written in English. And >>>>if your >>>> tongue's not in your cheek, why would you say this is a good haiku? >>>>Have you >>>> read Cor van den Heuvel's *Haiku Anthology*, just for starters? >>>> >>>> For a slightly dated annotated list of recommended books on haiku, >>>>visit >>>> http://mensaww.org/HaikuBooks.htm. >>>> >>>> Chris Stroffolino also writes that one of the "shorthand staples of >>>>early >>>> 20th c.---eliot's objective >>>> correlative? or no ideas but in things?" . . . "seems to >>>>distort/reduce >>>> too the haiku suggestiveness." >>>> >>>> I would answer by saying this: Because haiku -- perhaps more than any >>>> other poetry (because it's so short) -- relies on the emotive power >>>>behind >>>> things, the notion of the objective correlative increases its >>>>suggestiveness >>>> rather than distort or reduce it. We have an immediate reaction to the >>>>word >>>> chair that's different, say, than our reaction to the word soup. And >>>>think, >>>> too, of how we react differently to "easy chair" compared with >>>>"electric >>>> chair." I'm just naming things with these examples, but these objects >>>> correlate to immediate emotions or feelings, or connotations and >>>> associations. Even a "stone" will carry some feeling for us when we >>>>read the >>>> word in a poem, though of course the nature of that feeling may vary >>>>from >>>> person to person. There's more to the concept of the objective >>>>correlative >>>> than just this, of course, but haiku relies on the emotive power of >>>>things >>>> perhaps more strongly than other poetry. To the extent that haiku is >>>>mostly >>>> objective, focusing on nouns a >>>> nd things such as they are (yet presented in such a way to imply a >>>> relationship and an intuitive feeling), haiku strongly rely on the >>>>emotive >>>> weight associated with each thing named in the poem. Certainly there >>>>are >>>> subjective or nonliteral elements in some haiku (such as in Shiki's >>>>poem, >>>> "for me going / for you staying / two autumns," or Basho's haiku about >>>>the >>>> cicada's cries piercing the rocks), but not every haiku is or needs to >>>>be >>>> strictly objective. It's a matter of finding balance, within each >>>>poem, and >>>> in a particular poem relative to other poems. They are examples of >>>> controlling the objectivity and subjectivity, and typically, where >>>>there's a >>>> subjective element in haiku, it's usually in the context of something >>>>that's >>> > clearly objective -- something that grounds the rest of the poem so >>>the >>>> subjective element isn't overpowering. >>>> >>>> Sure, you can do ____ (whatever: fill in the blank) in a haiku -- but >>>>not >>> > necessarily often (heck, even have a title once in a very rare while, >>>if it >>>> somehow really needs it). Haiku is not a strict set of rules (don't >>>>think >>>> that I think it is). Rather, haiku is a field of multiple targets, and >>>>a >>>> good haiku will hit multiple targets at once, but not necessarily all >>>>of >>>> them -- and occasionally miss one or two of them (on purpose) that >>>>certain >>>> people might feel are more important and should never be missed. >>>>That's why >>>> it's good to see haiku as a continuum with other kinds of poetry. >>>>Poetry >>>> first, labels later (if at all). But, I hasten to say, as soon as you >>>>label >>>> something as haiku, it had better be a proper understanding of haiku >>>>that >>>> you mean -- and for too many folks, that's not the case. >>>> >>>> Michael >>>> P.S. To discuss another poem offered here, from Eric ( >>>> mr.eric.yost@GMAIL.COM): >>>> >>>> Golf Haiku >>>> >>>> Robin watches drive, >>>> waits until I leave the tee, >>>> probes divot for worm. >>>> >>>> Here are some problems with this "haiku" (which I would hope would be >>>> among the 1,000 haiku one writes before trying to publish any -- a >>>>task that >>>> haiku writer Jim Kacian set for himself): >>>> >>>> 1. It has a title, which haiku avoid (and in this case, the title is >>>> redundant -- we know from the poem that it's about golf, and we don't >>>>need >>>> to be condescended to and be told it's a haiku; in other "haiku" that >>>>have >>>> titles, the title is a sort of cheating -- adding a fourth line). >>>> 2. It drops natural articles in the first and third lines (a robin, >>>>a/my >>>> drive, the divot). Paul O. Williams, writing in *The Nick of Time: >>>>Essays on >>>> Haiku Aeshetics*, calls this tontoism. It arises when a person is >>>> insufficiently accomplished at crafting the poem to make it properly >>>>fit a >>>> form (if they wish to follow a prescribed syllable count), or if they >>>>think >>>> somehow that it's "better" simply to be briefer (if they're not >>>>following a >>>> set form). Ted Kooser has written that a good poem is like looking at >>>> tropical fish through the bottom of a glass-bottom boat, and that you >>>>don't >>>> want things to clatter down onto the glass as you look, or see smudges >>>>on >>>> the glass, and thus make you aware of where you're looking from. >>>>Rather, you >>>> want to be totally absorbed in what you're seeing, to experience IT as >>>>much >>>> as possible. As soon as you resort to tontoism, you show the >>>>apparatus, the >>>> scaffolding, and also reveal that following an arbitrary syllable >>>>count like >>>> an obedient school bo >>>> y is more important than crafting good content. (Let form be an >>>>extension >>>> of content!) The words of a good poem should be as invisible as >>>>possible, >>>> letting you feel the meaning or experience the image as sharply as >>>>possible >>>> -- this is why haiku is sometimes called the "wordless poem" (Alan >>>>Watts; >>>> Eric Amann). My goodness, the haiku crime of tontoism should be >>>>punishable >>>> by a lifetime of having to listen to Rod McKuen poetry speeded up to >>>> chipmunk speed. That's such a basic matter of crafting. I would have >>>> expected better on this discussion list. >>>> 3. It is presented as a sentence (ending with a period, even), and is >>>> oblivious to the fragmentary nature of haiku. Starting with a >>>>lowercase >>>> letter in this case would also prevent the misreading of "Robin" as a >>>> person's name, which muddies the interpretation of this poem. The >>>>lopping >>>> off of the article ("a robin") is another contributor to the wooliness >>>>in >>>> this line. >>>> 4. It lacks the two-part juxtapositional structure that focuses our >>>> attention on a specific emotion that we can figure out (the poem lacks >>>> implication and reverberation). Haiku, too, are usually not narrative >>>>like >>>> this one, and are usually best if they avoid a cause/effect >>>>presentation. >>>> 5. The poem is choppy and awkward. >>>> 6. Because of the worm, I suppose we can imagine it's spring or summer >>>> (I'd have to check the history of "worm" as a seasonal indicator), but >>>>the >>>> seasonal element isn't strong here. (That doesn't bother me too much, >>> > though.) A strong seasonal element, however, can greatly deepen the >>>effect >>>> of a poem by tapping into seasonal or natural archetypes, and alluding >>>>to >>> > other poems about the same subject (allusion and a technique known as >>>> honkodori is common in Japanese poetry). >>>> 7. The biggest problem is that this is a so-what poem. There's no >>>> implication, nothing for the reader to figure out. I like the image >>>>well >>>> enough -- that a bird is waiting for your divot to look for worms >>>>(that's >>>> either a smart robin, or a lazy one). But that's all there is too it, >>>>and >>>> it's obfuscated by the awkward and unnecessary syntax, all in the name >>>>of >>>> 5-7-5. But something more needs to be left out, to be implied. >>>>Consider, for >>>> example, this poem: "an old woolen sweater / taken yarn by yarn / from >>>>the >>>> snowbank." When students in my classes figure out that it's about a >>>>bird >>>> taking bits of yarn for a nest in spring, their faces light up with >>>> realization -- they "get it." Yet no bird is mentioned. Most of the >>>>time, if >>>> a haiku doesn't leave something out to be "got," then it fails as a >>>>haiku, >>>> no matter how well the objectivity or subjectivity is controlled, >>>>whether it >>>> employs a kigo or kireji equivalent, or shasei (sketching form life) >>>> techniques -- and more. And through al >>>> l of this, of course, it's irrelevant whether the poem is 5-7-5 or >>>>not. >>>> >>>> On the good side, this poem is objective, but the POINT of using >>>> objectivity is to create some sort of subjective reaction -- an >>>>emotional or >>>> intuitive moment. And this poem feels too shallow in its use of >>>>objective >>>> description to have created enough of a leap, overtones, or >>>>reverberation. >>>> It's got a greater starter image for a haiku, that haiku don't end >>>>with >>>> images, they start with them. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 07:12:09 +0000 >>>> From: Barry Schwabsky >>>> Subject: Re: haiku >>>> >>>> I don't think there can a haiku better than this one by Paul Violi, >>>>which >>>> I am >>>> proud to have published in a magazine I co-edited many years ago. I >>>>don't >>>> believe it follows a single one of your rules, nor does it follow the >>>> conventional syllable count, but it blows my mind: >>>> >>>> Don't look at my face. >>>> No change, just large bills. >>>> One wrong move will be your last. >>>> >>>>________________________________________________________________________ >>>> Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and >>>>security >>>> tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the >>>>web, >>>> free AOL Mail and more. >>>> >>> >> >> >>-- >>http://hyperhypo.org/blog >>http://www.pftborder.blogspot.com _________________________________________________________________ FREE online classifieds from Windows Live Expo – buy and sell with people you know http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwex0010000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://expo.live.com?s_cid=Hotmail_tagline_12/06 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 14:58:55 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: haiku and Anna Nicole Smith In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable David, yes, of course, to all that! There are=20 "rules" (having to do with poetry, for some) and=20 "rules" (in this case, having to do with context,=20 for anyone subbed to this list). I was=20 reproducing the context "rules" not to enforce=20 them, but to give some idea of why some people=20 around here might resist the notion that the=20 "rules" (having to do with poetry) are to be=20 rather scrupulously adhered to. =46or me, then, the "rules" of context explain in=20 part the dynamics of the list. I sense some=20 dismay hereabouts on the part of some that others=20 might not wish to follow the "rules" of poetry.=20 Well, but have a look at what this list is=20 presumed to be about. That said, I for one enjoy hearing about, and=20 being educated in, formalities, formalisms incl.=20 But this doesn't mean that I'm inclined to forgo=20 my own creative impulses, which -- if I do say so=20 -- have generally been at least somewhat informed=20 by the "rules." So perhaps the approach ought to=20 be more like, "I'm not sure you're prepared to=20 accept these rules [of haiku], but here they are,=20 and please know that some regard same with=20 considerable gravity." That would at least=20 acknowledge the legitimacy of others who conduct=20 their poetic practice w/o deference to such=20 "rules." Anyway, there's a paradox at work here,=20 certainly. On my office door is taped a little=20 cartoon that depicts two guys, both in suits, one=20 sitting behind a desk, and the other standing=20 before him, saying, "I'll be happy to do=20 innovative thinking. What are the guidelines?" That about sums it up, no? And it certainly sums=20 up my experience at times teaching creative=20 writing, along with most else. Best, Joe >Thank you so much for your letter Anny Ballardini! >Anna Nicole Smith is non-stop on cable news--and=20 >here at buffalo list, too--(though is the=20 >discussion here "innovative" and "questioning=20 >recieved forms and styles" and so actually=20 >superior to the tablod and news reporting?--the=20 >analysis by alan sondheim for example is given=20 >within abt first ten seconds by the tabloids,=20 >and then contually surpassed in as Anny writes,=20 >"talk talk talk talk"-- > >actually very much the talk talk talk and=20 >barrage of images interviews quotes--is the=20 >creation via Tragedy, of a Saint--being elevated=20 >into the Heavens of the Spectacle--the allusions=20 >which media makes and Anna Nicole continaully=20 >made to Mailyn --link her immediately to that=20 >Sainted image and sacrifical Tragedy--yet there=20 >are also many background murmruings of the ever=20 >onging Sanctification of Princess Di--and lost=20 >in the depths Jayne Mansfield as well, though=20 >she is a Lesser Saint than Marilyn and Di and=20 >Anna Nicole--(whose name also conjures=20 >resomating imagery of the tragic tall blonde=20 >Nicole Simpson Brown--)-- > >the Tragedy of the lowly little girl's frairy=20 >tale princess' dream and attainment of real=20 >Princess fame and fortune via beauty and=20 >wealthy, powerful men--(Jayne Mansfield married=20 >literally a "Strong Man"--famous body=20 >builder--and Jayne, like Anne=20 >Boleyn--decapitated though not by any King's=20 >decree other than those of the women who are=20 >the Fates)--and treacheries along the way of=20 >those who don't want to allow the princess to=20 >become a Queen--so that they die tragically,=20 >experience martyrdoms--and become beloved above=20 >all among "the people"--their loyal subjects as=20 >it were--and then transformed into Saints for=20 >the Adoration-- >talk tlak tlak tlak and images images=20 >images--with scandal always attendent--mysteries=20 >of fathers, of children, courts of law--social=20 >barriers transgressed--the manipulation by media=20 >and media manipulation by "star"--it is an=20 >endless pagentry and each new princess/Saint=20 >contributes her own unique variations on the=20 >theme, on the relics, on the forms of Adoration=20 >and memorialization--each contributes to the=20 >enhancement of the others--for the glory of the=20 >firmaments where the Stars are existing in=20 >Eternal Light-- >for secular fallen worlds, a new form of=20 >religion/opiate of the masses--and for the=20 >masters and mistreeses in charge, more pagentry,=20 >bread and circuses to keep "the people" from=20 >wanting to pay attention to the Bad news which=20 >is being jettisoned in all the pomp and glory,=20 >all the mysteries of fatherhood, of legal=20 >ranglings over Gold--posseions--and the=20 >mysterious deaths--natural/suicidal/murder by=20 >conspiracy--the triumph of the female Saint over=20 >the male desire to dominate and condemn and=20 >destroy them--the lovers who along the way=20 >adored or betrayed-Saint Joan and her=20 >Inquistors--burning at the stake and like=20 >Artaud's victim, signalling through the=20 >flames--before the Ascension-- >so many powerful forces unleashed in the tabloid world's energies-- >in the drug store the other night going from=20 >magazine cover to magaine cover, tabloid sheet=20 >to tabloid sheet cover--a whole procession of=20 >images of the Saints and martyrs among the=20 >Stars--their sufferings, weight, child, man,=20 >money, career dramas rising and falling in the=20 >melodramtic rhythms of a word/music/image=20 >ritualized ceremonial Stations of the Cross in a=20 >serial form--not just the imagery, but the use=20 >of words, their typogrpahies in the immense=20 >visual/sound serial feuillton poem/drama-- >and who is still with one--stil going=20 >strong--LIZ!!!--since childhood LIZ has been=20 >there--ruling the living heavens--a kind of=20 >Patron Saint of the Tabloids--endlessly dy8ing=20 >almost and being reborn--endless finding=20 >husbands and lovers--and moving on to another=20 >one--so as never to be dull or boring by having=20 >tthe same againg companion--for her eteranl=20 >youth--Madonna has made a career out of running=20 >her own tabloids to go laong withthose that=20 >surround her--Demi--Katie--Barbara Mandrell=20 >(back with her stolen tour bus in the front page=20 >news--on cable----straight out of country=20 >song--)--Hillary--(lately joining the ones who=20 >seem destinied for their stops in=20 >rehab--according to some of the Tabloid=20 >iconogrpahy--)--Halle--Venus--Whitney--Oprah--Visitations=20 >by Mary, Our Lady of Guadalupe, Serena,=20 >Shakira--a long gallery of icons one passes by=20 >in the altar area of the cash register-alongside=20 >the little boxes for donations to various=20 >organizations for children's diseases-- >and now Anna Nicole will for a while be the one=20 >whose Adoration will burn with the finest=20 >flame--for some months to come-- as she becomes=20 >a permanent part of the Spectacle of Stardom=20 >Sainthood--her Ascension attained--into that=20 >Eternal Company > >The Tabloids are really the Living Presence of=20 >ancient energies which negentropically=20 >regenerate--rther than run down--and continually=20 >gather more Saints, more intensity with each new=20 >form of media--icons of the Goddesses since=20 >times immemorial--Cleopatra--Helen of Troy-- > >in one of his autobriographical novels Blaise=20 >Cendrars writes of the forms of Tabloids and=20 >feuilleton photo-novels he finds in the farthest=20 >reaches of Brazil--and writes of how these--with=20 >the Stars, the monsters (aliens, Big Foot,=20 >etc--), the horoscopes and predictions of=20 >Nostradums, Book of revelations--how al these=20 >anceint "interprepations of dreams", love=20 >potions, methods of Better Health and Beauty--al=20 >of it, the belief in the stars of the Screen and=20 >of the Horoscopes--are al truly signs of the=20 >ancient world which have never been expunged for=20 >all the "progress" in history--but have only=20 >made uses of progress and progress made uses of=20 >them--to burn ever brighter, be ever more=20 >proliferating, ever more Glora in Excelsus -- > >re the discussion of haiku-- >Joe--(message below)-- >there is something rather paradoxically humorous=20 >about invoking the Words of the Welcome Message-- >a number of writers have presented themselves as=20 >poets who are anti-the-rules and anti-the -forms=20 >--by inclination and style--of form in their own=20 >senses of form--renovators and innovators--in=20 >both the Spirit and Letter of the Law--of the=20 >List-- >which actually if you think of it is a bit oxymoronic-- >that is--the Rules of the List demand=20 >innovation, renovation, investigation=20 >questioning, creation possibly of the=20 >unimagined, untried, unexpected, impossible,=20 >improbale-- > >the Rules of the lLst--now arent some of the=20 >same people who invoke all sorts of rule=20 >breaking--the ones who are insisting on=20 >referrring back to the Rules?!-- >i can't help it, i find this very funny-- > >for if one were a rule breaker in such Rules'=20 >context--wouldn't a way of breaking these rules=20 >be to consider seriously the rules of a form=20 >"untried, unimagined" by oneself??--let alone by=20 >the type of innovative poetry that is intended=20 >by the Rules-- >(when there are rules re innovation, let alone=20 >renovation, investigation, --one knows implicity=20 >that this means only certain kinds of innovation=20 >will be recognized--leading to domination,=20 >denomination, demonization and many other forms=20 >of debilitation)-- > >if one is so opposed to rules, forms and=20 >classifications--why then quote a set of rules,=20 >and use said rules to as it were silence the=20 >claims of other forms of rules--?-- > >i mean if one is truly a rule breaker--wouldn't=20 >one also just chuck these rules, too?-- >and listen to other rules of form, other forms=20 >of rules--rather simply One Form of Rlues, The=20 >Rule of One Form?--One Form Rules? (i .e. the=20 >"innovative, rneovative, investigative"=20 >one--yet--innovative, renovative,=20 >investigative--according to Whom--in the words=20 >of M. Foucault--to invoke a Voice of Authority=20 >so as to be a good Rule follower for the nonce=20 >as it were--, "Who Speaks?"--through the Message=20 >and Rules--whose innovation is one engaging=20 >with?-- >what if one truly engaged in innovations which=20 >were of some other sort entirely?--truly being a=20 >rule breaker breaking rules? > >or is there fear of such "chaos" being introdced=20 >into the system, or fear of other rules than=20 >that of the Message-- > >why is it one cites these rules in order to turn=20 >a deaf ear as it were to a set of rules existing=20 >in an other form of poetry? >does not the kind of innovation being asked for=20 >here consist of its own sets of rules? > >you see, if someone sends the Message to=20 >question, to investigate--Rules, Forms,=20 >Authorities-- >does this not also entail a questioning of the=20 >authority, of the Rules--which are making this=20 >Call?--becuase one must, truly, if being=20 >embarked on quesdtoning, question who it is that=20 >is asking for investigations, innovations,=20 >questionings-- >other swise one is still truly a follower of the=20 >Law, in spirit and letter--and not an=20 >independent questioner, but one doing so at the=20 >behest of others, for purposes which must be=20 >indeed perhaps for their benefit? > >i am writing this both very humourously and very seriously-- > >remember the period of "Let a Hundred Flowers Bloom" in China?-- >a brillaint bit of work by Chairman Mao and company-- >a Welcome Message as it were was sent out to al the people of China-- >"Let a Hundred Flowers Bloom"--a new openness! >everyone was encourgaed to come forward with=20 >their questionings, suggestions for innovations=20 >and renovations and investigations--for al=20 >voices to be rasied in order to have a great=20 >conversation, a great exchange openly of=20 >ideas--on how to renovate and innovative and=20 >redecorate and investigate the way things were=20 >being run by the sytem, by the great Chairman=20 >Welcomer Mao himself--each person who brought=20 >forward something of use for improving the=20 >existing sytem would be a great contributor to=20 >the cause, to the nation-- > >the excietment and joy with which this edict was=20 >met was incredible--people came forward with=20 >literally millions of suggestions, new ideas,=20 >things learned on how to improve this and that=20 >glitch-- >and once they had al come out in the open, O Hundred Blooming Flowers- >whack whack whack!!! >off with their heads!! >and a Hundred Flowers Doomed-- > >this is a true story, the life and death=20 >parable, which i always think of when i hear=20 >that there are rules for innovations-- >because--look what happens--a person writing of=20 >an other form of poetry and trying to make clear=20 >its form, and advocate for a study of its=20 >history, examples, in order to understand it and=20 >to attempt a beginning of its practice-- >is told--basically to stuff it--becuase the rule=20 >here is we don't have any uses for rules-- >("other than our own")-- >so isn't one advocating that as the Rules say=20 >there are no other rules to be bothered=20 >about--than the Rule here-- >isn't one becoming a kind of cop or soldier in=20 >the service of the Rule of the Rules--and=20 >so--ready and willing to chop off the heads of=20 >anything with other rules, and --one feels it is=20 >implied--with innovations which aren' >t in the spirit of the kind of innovations being=20 >asked for by the Rules and its followers=20 >citiing them? > >do you see why i find this both very humourous and also a serious question? > >to really be questioning and investigating--one=20 >needs to be open to lsiten--to a great many=20 >forms and their sets of rules, to have an=20 >interest in learning and understandig what is=20 >different--just as one needs to question and=20 >investigate also what it means to be a rule=20 >breaker and yet a follower of Rules--how this=20 >might affect one's ability to have a questionng=20 >which leads to understanding-- >rather than a questioning which leads to=20 >silencing, ridicule or willful ignorance and=20 >arrogance-- > >Yeats wrote that poetry comes from the struggle=20 >with oneself, rhetoric and politics of the=20 >argument with others-- > >the questioning and invetsigation--one needs to=20 >begin with oneself--am i really a rule=20 >breaker?--do i really believe in sometimes=20 >following the rules and sometimes not--and what=20 >helps me make these decisisons?--why do i reject=20 >the rules of form--yet advocate strongly the=20 >Rules of a list telling me to question them?--=20 >do i question another's authority because it=20 >was one i am not familiar or interested in one?=20 >do i question the authority by which i claim=20 >authority to question the rules followed by=20 >others? >if i am questionng the authority of others to=20 >set certain rules and abide by them-- >why then do i not question myself for followng=20 >certain rules and abiding by them? >is my authority to question others rules and=20 >authorities higher than their power to believe=20 >in them abide by them and create by them? >and is my authority to question only based on a=20 >belief in the authority which allows me this=20 >form of questioning? what proofs do i have to=20 >make me believe my authority of rules is higher=20 >than that of others and their follwing theirs=20 >while i follow mine? am i nothing more than a=20 >blindly obediant follower of Rules when i say=20 >that others are? > >"some things are so serious that all one can do=20 >is laugh"--werner heisenberg--he of the=20 >Uncertainty Principle-- > >as the song says > >still i wonder >still i wonder >who'll stop the rain > >or as the old saying goes: >"remember the first time you were ripped off by a head?" >"question authority"--means al=20 >authorities--including the one telling you to=20 >question other's authority >it means questining one's own authority > >so once i send this i am going to question my authority in sending this > >which isn't authority at all--other than=20 >experience in many coiuntries and situations--of=20 >many auhtorites of al forms --controlling one's=20 >existence or trying to convince one of one's=20 >freedoms-- >auhtorites and rules exist--even when asking one to ask questions-- >for purposes of their own > >just as charity is said to begin at home, so=20 >questioning is best begun at home--in=20 >oneself--and with the rules one is following on=20 >someone's authority in order to questions rules-- >(i.e.--don't listen to me either!!)(remember the=20 >wise Russian Proverb President Reagan used to=20 >love to endlessly repeat and=20 >mispronounce?--"Trust, but Verify"!!!) >you see--there are no free rides at the carnival-- >if you think that there are-- >then perhaps you have listened to a cunning old carnie con-- >in the guise of something looking like a Benevolent Authority >for all you may know-- >without question and investigating=3D- >and truly --remeber tohave some good laughs at=20 >all one finds in the funhouse mirror distortions=20 >within and without oneself-!!! >in the sense of affectionate community- >(and as the creator at one time of a series of=20 >zollage (xeroxed collage) zines called "NO=20 >ACCIDENT: The Journal of Extra-Sensory Paranoia") >david-bc now back to my own tabloid life and work!!! > >>From: Joe Amato >>Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >>To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>Subject: Re: haiku >>Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 23:23:02 -0600 >> >>But Dan, how would you *know* whether a *poet*=20 >>knows "the history of the poem, its=20 >>implications" etc.? -- unless of course you=20 >>feel you can glean same from a reading of=20 >>(e.g.) the poem itself? >> >>Stephen Vincent makes the proper point, in any=20 >>case, even against MDW's reasoned argument in=20 >>favor of such knowledge. >> >>This is, after all, a list devoted to=20 >>discussing "those directions in poetry that are=20 >>committed to innovations, renovations, and=20 >>investigations of form and/or/as content, to=20 >>the questioning of received forms and styles,=20 >>and to the creation of the >>otherwise unimagined, untried, unexpected,=20 >>improbable, and impossible." (I quote from the=20 >>Poetics List Welcome Message.) >> >>The question before us is a typical question,=20 >>really, applicable to haiku or to any rec'd=20 >>form: at what point is taking liberties deemed=20 >>acceptable, or unacceptable, and why? >> >>There are surely histories of poetry, in the=20 >>U.S. (e.g.), in the 20th century (e.g.) -- a=20 >>history of resistance to received forms -- to=20 >>suggest that some (of us) will be inclined to=20 >>mess with rec'd forms, with (or without) the=20 >>possession of such knowledge. Whether the=20 >>results are successful, well -- they're not not=20 >>successful simply b/c they've deviated from the=20 >>norm. If you think you can read a given example=20 >>and suss out whether the poet has *not* acted=20 >>with sufficient knowledge, very well then. But=20 >>that's a mite tougher to do, and to argue, than=20 >>simply to compare and contrast with what the=20 >>formal rules might say such items ought to=20 >>attempt. Pardon me, but simple deviation from=20 >>the norm does not (as I see it) an unsuccessful=20 >>poem make, haiku or otherwise, nor does it=20 >>suggest a lack of associated knowledge. >> >>That said, I opt for as much knowledge of the=20 >>formal rules as one has a stomach for. >> >>At any rate, I daresay it will require a much=20 >>more sophisticated approach to form generally=20 >>to persuade most on this list not to mess with=20 >>rec'd form. Where I part company with MDW is in=20 >>my assertion that haiku are no different,=20 >>finally, than sonnets (or any other poetic=20 >>form) insofar as the inherent legitimacy of=20 >>altering associated constraints. Again, how is=20 >>one to *prove* that one has the knowledge=20 >>sufficient to being granted license (poetic=20 >>license) to alter form? Or, again, are we=20 >>saying that all such knowledge will be evident=20 >>in the poetry itself? One way to almost=20 >>guarantee that nobody messes with form is to=20 >>argue that a given poem must exhibit evidence=20 >>of such knowledge. >> >>I hope you all see the conundrum at work here.=20 >>So, I'd like someone to explain to me --=20 >>seriously now -- why some of the haiku posted=20 >>here DON'T work when understood as "questioning=20 >>of received forms and styles" (see above). Or=20 >>even better, how it is that some of the haiku=20 >>posted here, lionized or no, do *not* reveal=20 >>sufficient knowledge of haiku. >> >>Unless the problem is simply one of naming --=20 >>i.e., that we ought not to call a haiku that=20 >>which merely resembles same -- then a judgment=20 >>is being made as to how best to approach this=20 >>matter of poetic form, and resistance thereto.=20 >>That's not pertinent simply to haiku -- that=20 >>strikes at the heart of what a list like this=20 >>is supposed to be about. >> >>Best, >> >>Joe >> >>>I think the writer is reacting to Bowering's and Schwabsky's lionizing >>>of Padgett's and Violi's poems, respectively, and not the poems >>>themeselves. >>> >>>I agree with Vincent that morphing is necessary, but MDW makes a good >>>point, one that shouldn't have to be made. Know the history of the >>>poem, its implications and subtleties, and THEN subvert it. >>> >>>On 2/9/07, Davey Volner wrote: >>>>I trust the writer understands that both Violi's haiku and Padgett's are >>>>satirical? >>>> >>>>On 2/9/07, Michael Dylan Welch wrote: >>>>> >>>>> If Paul Violi's "Don't look at my face. / No change, just large= bills. / >>>>> One wrong move will be your last." poem blows your mind, wonderful. I= t's >>>>> quite arresting, I agree. But it's not because it has anything to do = with >>>>> haiku (except for the obvious overlap with haiku of having brevity, w= hich >>>> > gives the poem focus). So the problem here is either you or the poet >>>>> labelling it as a haiku. For an overview of=20 >>>>>reasons why it has little to do >>>>> with haiku, see my online essay "Becoming a Haiku Poet" ( >>>> > http://www.haikuworld.org/begin/mdwelch.apr2003.html). Or see the 20= 05 >>>>> edition of *Poet's Market* (Writer's Digest=20 >>>>>Books, 2004), in which I have an >>>>> essay on haiku and applying its techniques=20 >>>>>and aesthetics to the writing of >>>>> longer poetry. Comments welcome. >>>>> >>>>> By the way, wordplay on "low-ku," "noir-coup," or whatever, is anothe= r >>>>> mark of haiku poetasters. So are most poems=20 >>>>>about haiku. I went through this >>>>> stage, too. But I got over it. This is the=20 >>>>>kind of trivia I got over (from >>>>> the esteemed pen of Mr. Daniel Zimmerman): >>>>> >>>>> flag haiku >>>>> >>>>> one two three four five >>>>> six seven eight nine ten e- >>>>> leven twelve thirteen >>>>> >>>>> A wee bit of reseach in haiku literature would reveal, by the way, th= at >>>>> haiku nearly never have titles, and there are important reasons why. = As >>>>> Charlie Rossiter says, do some *serious* research and study of the ge= nre >>>>> before proclaiming work as being haiku, let alone saying that you "do= n't >>>>> think there can be a haiku better" than the=20 >>>>>example by Paul Violi. As strong >>>>> as Violi's poem may be as poetry, and as=20 >>>>>clear as its virtues are (I could >>>>> see myself publishing it too), it has=20 >>>>>nearly nothing to do with haiku, and >>>>> is easily torn apart for failing as haiku. >>>>> >>>>> And a quick, respectful message to George (Bowering): You say, "Best = US >>>>> haiku I know is Ron Padgett's:" >>>>> >>>>> Seven syllables >>>>> Eleven syllables >>>>> Seven syllables >>>>> >>>>> I have to hope your tongue is in your=20 >>>>>cheek. But if so, why? Why promote a >>>>> poem that doesn't take the genre seriously?=20 >>>>>If you mean to damn all American >>>>> poems by favouring such an obviously clueless one, then that seems to >>>>> suggest an unfamiliarity with the best=20 >>>>>haiku written in English. And if your >>>>> tongue's not in your cheek, why would you=20 >>>>>say this is a good haiku? Have you >>>>> read Cor van den Heuvel's *Haiku Anthology*, just for starters? >>>>> >>>>> For a slightly dated annotated list of recommended books on haiku, vi= sit >>>>> http://mensaww.org/HaikuBooks.htm. >>>>> >>>>> Chris Stroffolino also writes that one of the "shorthand staples of e= arly >>>>> 20th c.---eliot's objective >>>>> correlative? or no ideas but in things?" . . . "seems to distort/redu= ce >>>>> too the haiku suggestiveness." >>>>> >>>>> I would answer by saying this: Because haiku -- perhaps more than any >>>>> other poetry (because it's so short) --=20 >>>>>relies on the emotive power behind >>>>> things, the notion of the objective=20 >>>>>correlative increases its suggestiveness >>>>> rather than distort or reduce it. We have=20 >>>>>an immediate reaction to the word >>>>> chair that's different, say, than our=20 >>>>>reaction to the word soup. And think, >>>>> too, of how we react differently to "easy chair" compared with "elect= ric >>>>> chair." I'm just naming things with these examples, but these objects >>>>> correlate to immediate emotions or feelings, or connotations and >>>>> associations. Even a "stone" will carry=20 >>>>>some feeling for us when we read the >>>>> word in a poem, though of course the nature of that feeling may vary = from >>>>> person to person. There's more to the=20 >>>>>concept of the objective correlative >>>>> than just this, of course, but haiku relies=20 >>>>>on the emotive power of things >>>>> perhaps more strongly than other poetry. To=20 >>>>>the extent that haiku is mostly >>>>> objective, focusing on nouns a >>>>> nd things such as they are (yet presented in such a way to imply a >>>>> relationship and an intuitive feeling),=20 >>>>>haiku strongly rely on the emotive >>>>> weight associated with each thing named in the poem. Certainly there = are >>>>> subjective or nonliteral elements in some haiku (such as in Shiki's p= oem, >>>>> "for me going / for you staying / two=20 >>>>>autumns," or Basho's haiku about the >>>>> cicada's cries piercing the rocks), but not every haiku is or needs= to be >>>>> strictly objective. It's a matter of=20 >>>>>finding balance, within each poem, and >>>>> in a particular poem relative to other poems. They are examples of >>>>> controlling the objectivity and=20 >>>>>subjectivity, and typically, where there's a >>>>> subjective element in haiku, it's usually=20 >>>>>in the context of something that's >>>> > clearly objective -- something that grounds the rest of the poem so = the >>>>> subjective element isn't overpowering. >>>>> >>>>> Sure, you can do ____ (whatever: fill in the blank) in a haiku -- but= not >>>> > necessarily often (heck, even have a title=20 >>>>once in a very rare while, if it >>>>> somehow really needs it). Haiku is not a strict set of rules (don't t= hink >>>>> that I think it is). Rather, haiku is a field of multiple targets,= and a >>>>> good haiku will hit multiple targets at once, but not necessarily all= of >>>>> them -- and occasionally miss one or two of=20 >>>>>them (on purpose) that certain >>>>> people might feel are more important and=20 >>>>>should never be missed. That's why >>>>> it's good to see haiku as a continuum with other kinds of poetry. Poe= try >>>>> first, labels later (if at all). But, I=20 >>>>>hasten to say, as soon as you label >>>>> something as haiku, it had better be a proper understanding of haiku = that >>>>> you mean -- and for too many folks, that's not the case. >>>>> >>>>> Michael >>>>> P.S. To discuss another poem offered here, from Eric ( >>>>> mr.eric.yost@GMAIL.COM): >>>>> >>>>> Golf Haiku >>>>> >>>>> Robin watches drive, >>>>> waits until I leave the tee, >>>>> probes divot for worm. >>>>> >>>>> Here are some problems with this "haiku" (which I would hope would be >>>>> among the 1,000 haiku one writes before=20 >>>>>trying to publish any -- a task that >>>>> haiku writer Jim Kacian set for himself): >>>>> >>>>> 1. It has a title, which haiku avoid (and in this case, the title is >>>>> redundant -- we know from the poem that=20 >>>>>it's about golf, and we don't need >>>>> to be condescended to and be told it's a=20 >>>>>haiku; in other "haiku" that have >>>>> titles, the title is a sort of cheating -- adding a fourth line). >>>>> 2. It drops natural articles in the first and third lines (a robin, a= /my >>>>> drive, the divot). Paul O. Williams,=20 >>>>>writing in *The Nick of Time: Essays on >>>>> Haiku Aeshetics*, calls this tontoism. It arises when a person is >>>>> insufficiently accomplished at crafting the=20 >>>>>poem to make it properly fit a >>>>> form (if they wish to follow a prescribed=20 >>>>>syllable count), or if they think >>>>> somehow that it's "better" simply to be=20 >>>>>briefer (if they're not following a >>>>> set form). Ted Kooser has written that a good poem is like looking at >>>>> tropical fish through the bottom of a=20 >>>>>glass-bottom boat, and that you don't >>>>> want things to clatter down onto the glass as you look, or see= smudges on >>>>> the glass, and thus make you aware of where=20 >>>>>you're looking from. Rather, you >>>>> want to be totally absorbed in what you're=20 >>>>>seeing, to experience IT as much >>>>> as possible. As soon as you resort to=20 >>>>>tontoism, you show the apparatus, the >>>>> scaffolding, and also reveal that following=20 >>>>>an arbitrary syllable count like >>>>> an obedient school bo >>>>> y is more important than crafting good content. (Let form be an exten= sion >>>>> of content!) The words of a good poem should be as invisible as possi= ble, >>>>> letting you feel the meaning or experience=20 >>>>>the image as sharply as possible >>>>> -- this is why haiku is sometimes called the "wordless poem" (Alan Wa= tts; >>>>> Eric Amann). My goodness, the haiku crime=20 >>>>>of tontoism should be punishable >>>>> by a lifetime of having to listen to Rod McKuen poetry speeded up to >>>>> chipmunk speed. That's such a basic matter of crafting. I would have >>>>> expected better on this discussion list. >>>>> 3. It is presented as a sentence (ending with a period, even), and is >>>>> oblivious to the fragmentary nature of haiku. Starting with a lowerca= se >>>>> letter in this case would also prevent the misreading of "Robin" as a >>>>> person's name, which muddies the interpretation of this poem. The lop= ping >>>>> off of the article ("a robin") is another contributor to the= wooliness in >>>>> this line. >>>>> 4. It lacks the two-part juxtapositional structure that focuses our >>>>> attention on a specific emotion that we can figure out (the poem lack= s >>>>> implication and reverberation). Haiku, too,=20 >>>>>are usually not narrative like >>>>> this one, and are usually best if they avoid a cause/effect presentat= ion. >>>>> 5. The poem is choppy and awkward. >>>>> 6. Because of the worm, I suppose we can imagine it's spring or summe= r >>>>> (I'd have to check the history of "worm" as=20 >>>>>a seasonal indicator), but the >>>>> seasonal element isn't strong here. (That doesn't bother me too much, >>>> > though.) A strong seasonal element,=20 >>>>however, can greatly deepen the effect >>>>> of a poem by tapping into seasonal or natural archetypes, and= alluding to >>>> > other poems about the same subject (allusion and a technique known a= s >>>>> honkodori is common in Japanese poetry). >>>>> 7. The biggest problem is that this is a so-what poem. There's no >>>>> implication, nothing for the reader to figure out. I like the image w= ell >>>>> enough -- that a bird is waiting for your divot to look for worms (th= at's >>>>> either a smart robin, or a lazy one). But that's all there is too it,= and >>>>> it's obfuscated by the awkward and unnecessary syntax, all in the= name of >>>>> 5-7-5. But something more needs to be left=20 >>>>>out, to be implied. Consider, for >>>>> example, this poem: "an old woolen sweater=20 >>>>>/ taken yarn by yarn / from the >>>>> snowbank." When students in my classes figure out that it's about a b= ird >>>>> taking bits of yarn for a nest in spring, their faces light up with >>>>> realization -- they "get it." Yet no bird=20 >>>>>is mentioned. Most of the time, if >>>>> a haiku doesn't leave something out to be=20 >>>>>"got," then it fails as a haiku, >>>>> no matter how well the objectivity or=20 >>>>>subjectivity is controlled, whether it >>>>> employs a kigo or kireji equivalent, or shasei (sketching form life) >>>>> techniques -- and more. And through al >>>>> l of this, of course, it's irrelevant whether the poem is 5-7-5 or no= t. >>>>> >>>>> On the good side, this poem is objective, but the POINT of using >>>>> objectivity is to create some sort of=20 >>>>>subjective reaction -- an emotional or >>>>> intuitive moment. And this poem feels too shallow in its use of objec= tive >>>>> description to have created enough of a=20 >>>>>leap, overtones, or reverberation. >>>>> It's got a greater starter image for a haiku, that haiku don't end wi= th >>>>> images, they start with them. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 07:12:09 +0000 >>>>> From: Barry Schwabsky >>>>> Subject: Re: haiku >>>>> >>>>> I don't think there can a haiku better than this one by Paul Violi, w= hich >>>>> I am >>>>> proud to have published in a magazine I co-edited many years ago. I d= on't >>>>> believe it follows a single one of your rules, nor does it follow the >>>>> conventional syllable count, but it blows my mind: >>>>> >>>>> Don't look at my face. >>>>> No change, just large bills. >>>>> One wrong move will be your last. >>>>> _____________________________________________________________________= ___ >>>>> Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive=20 >>>>>set of free safety and security >>>>> tools, free access to millions of=20 >>>>>high-quality videos from across the web, >>>>> free AOL Mail and more. >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>-- >>>http://hyperhypo.org/blog >>>http://www.pftborder.blogspot.com > >_________________________________________________________________ >FREE online classifieds from Windows Live Expo =96=20 >buy and sell with people you know=20 >http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwex0010000001msn/direct/01/?href=3Dhttp://= expo.live.com?s_cid=3DHotmail_tagline_12/06 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 22:16:38 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dubravka Djuric Subject: Re: small cultures and innovative poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit at the moment, there is no english version of the site, so i am sending a short description of this alternative educational project, which is situated in the totaly anti-intelectual approches to poetry, we developed highly intelectual approach, and i think it is unique work in poetry in the region, as far as i have information. i hope that something of this work will be in some moment available in english! AWIN's school for poetry and theory was established in 1997 first as summer school within the Belgrade Center for Womes Studies and communication, and then within Association for Woemn's Initiative. The program of the work implies: - knowledge of poetry and poetics by 20th century poets from French simbolists, Italian futurists, Russian cubofuturists, Chech poetists, American beat poets and language poets to Sought Slavic poets; - developing of artistic self-consciousness and self-reflection (writing of poetics); - thinking of poetry at the level of the models of poetry; - lectures and representing guests; - consideration of relations between contemporary relation between poetry and contemporary theories (deconstruction, feminism, technoaestetics, etc); - discussing the relation contemporary media cultures *movie, advertising, photographies) and poetry; - discussing the relationship between contemporary poetry and visual art and theatre; - working on poetry as performing art... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dubravka Djuric" To: Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 2:35 PM Subject: Re: small cultures and innovative poetry > hi jim, > thank you for this words, and for all in this list i will suggest to find > the sight of awin (association for women initiatives where i now for 10 > years establushed school for innovative poetry and poetics, you could find > there text in english where you could have a sense what we have been doing! > > > http://www.awin.org.yu > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jim Andrews" > To: > Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 5:23 AM > Subject: Re: small cultures and innovative poetry > > > > Hi Dubravka, > > > > Thanks for your fascinating post. Also, the tone of it is appealing: it > > isn't calling for anybody's head on a platter; it is articulate and > > progressive, not bitter or vengeful. You do not play the nationalistic > > trumpet but, instead, question the political and poetical value of > > aggressive nationalism. You speak for the value of experimental poetry > that > > introduces critical methods into poetry. That is important in poetry and > in > > contemporary society. > > > > Poetry needs to be able to deal with situations such as > > http://alternet.org/blogs/peek/47507 . Intensest engagement with language, > > these days, is not necessarily in a poemy poem on a page. It can happen > off > > the page and even off the art map. Poetry needs to be able to go there. > > > > ja > > http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 13:29:16 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eireene Nealand Subject: Re: small cultures and innovative poetry In-Reply-To: <000601c74d58$d941d6e0$4f00f0d5@b922003> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi Dubravka, The description of your school sounds great. As far as getting the work from it out there, I'd encourage you and members of the school to submit to our experimental magazine, Tarpaulin Sky. (hhtp://www.tarpaulinsky.com). We're always looking for new writers and I have a sort of special interest in postSoviet life...especially since we here too in the US are quite affected by this strange world that has lost it's two poles. It's a question of global interest, I think. Eireene On 2/10/07, Dubravka Djuric wrote: > at the moment, there is no english version of the site, so i am sending a > short description of this alternative educational project, which is situated > in the totaly anti-intelectual approches to poetry, we developed highly > intelectual approach, and i think it is unique work in poetry in the region, > as far as i have information. i hope that something of this work will be in > some moment available in english! > > AWIN's school for poetry and theory was established in 1997 first as summer > school within the Belgrade Center for Womes Studies and communication, and > then within Association for Woemn's Initiative. > > The program of the work implies: > > - knowledge of poetry and poetics by 20th century poets from French > simbolists, Italian futurists, Russian cubofuturists, Chech poetists, > American beat poets and language poets to Sought Slavic poets; > > - developing of artistic self-consciousness and self-reflection (writing of > poetics); > > - thinking of poetry at the level of the models of poetry; > > - lectures and representing guests; > > - consideration of relations between contemporary relation between poetry > and contemporary theories (deconstruction, feminism, technoaestetics, etc); > > - discussing the relation contemporary media cultures *movie, advertising, > photographies) and poetry; > > - discussing the relationship between contemporary poetry and visual art > and theatre; > > - working on poetry as performing art... > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dubravka Djuric" > To: > Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 2:35 PM > Subject: Re: small cultures and innovative poetry > > > > hi jim, > > thank you for this words, and for all in this list i will suggest to find > > the sight of awin (association for women initiatives where i now for 10 > > years establushed school for innovative poetry and poetics, you could find > > there text in english where you could have a sense what we have been > doing! > > > > > > http://www.awin.org.yu > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Jim Andrews" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 5:23 AM > > Subject: Re: small cultures and innovative poetry > > > > > > > Hi Dubravka, > > > > > > Thanks for your fascinating post. Also, the tone of it is appealing: it > > > isn't calling for anybody's head on a platter; it is articulate and > > > progressive, not bitter or vengeful. You do not play the nationalistic > > > trumpet but, instead, question the political and poetical value of > > > aggressive nationalism. You speak for the value of experimental poetry > > that > > > introduces critical methods into poetry. That is important in poetry and > > in > > > contemporary society. > > > > > > Poetry needs to be able to deal with situations such as > > > http://alternet.org/blogs/peek/47507 . Intensest engagement with > language, > > > these days, is not necessarily in a poemy poem on a page. It can happen > > off > > > the page and even off the art map. Poetry needs to be able to go there. > > > > > > ja > > > http://vispo.com > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 16:36:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eric Subject: Re: haiku In-Reply-To: <8C91AB2D92EA93C-D08-26A9@WEBMAIL-MA21.sysops.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>Golf Haiku Thanks to MDW for taking the time to write such a thoughtful critique of my haiku. Though you missed my intention -- which was merely to knock off something silly -- your criticism was excellent. It helped me to understand the form and tradition of a proper haiku. Honest criticism is rare enough, but honest and extensive criticism is both rare and rewarding. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 14:02:13 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: haiku In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 9-Feb-07, at 3:17 PM, Stephen Vincent wrote: >> A wee bit of reseach in haiku literature would reveal, by the way, >> that haiku >> nearly never have titles, and there are important reasons why. As >> Charlie >> Rossiter says, do some *serious* research and study of the genre >> before >> proclaiming work as being haiku, let alone saying that you "don't >> think there >> can be a haiku better" than the example by Paul Violi. As strong as >> Violi's >> poem may be as poetry, and as clear as its virtues are (I could see >> myself >> publishing it too), it has nearly nothing to do with haiku, and is >> easily torn >> apart for failing as haiku. > > Maybe with my good Protestant origins, I have never been at home with > adherence to any kind of orthodox system of behavior That is all right. But it is what haiku demands. So you can write something else just as satisfying. > > > > > George B. Author of his own misfortunes. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 15:47:59 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: haiku In-Reply-To: <389054.54774.qm@web86006.mail.ird.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I love it, some macedonia for the list: "Idyll Thoughts" I don't wrote haiku. to count syllables is fun. Fucked your mom last night. "Talk About Stuff" Blah blah he said blah blah natter guffaw she said back. I got off the bus. both by me. Here's a favorite macedonia by Jack McCarthy: "The Super Polydent commercial I wish that Wilfred Brimley would do:" There's nothing worse when yer down on the muffin than a loose upper palate. I'm off now to add a "macedonia" entry to the wikipedia list of poetic forms. Semi-seriously though, my roommate my first year at berklee was a greek named athanasios. Across the hall from us lived a fellow who claimed he was from macedonia, but who thanos insisted was a Skopian and that the republic of macedonia was a lie cooked up by Tito to legitimize bulgarian holdings in historically greek territory. it struck me at the time that the whole thing was a little bit silly, and that the worry about the skopian land grab had very little to do with whether the slavs in the southeast of the former yugoslavia called themselves macedonians or skopians or bulgarians or whatever. i think, as such, the analogy to haiku is highly apropos. Barry Schwabsky wrote: > I think Joe's point is well taken. While this discussion has been very instructive in many ways, we should not forget that this is list whose topic is innovative poetics. I'm sure there are other lists available for the promulgation of traditionalist poetics, and some of the same people might even be on both lists, since there is no reason not to be interested in both. But to the extent that we are not, at some point we just have to respectfully agree to disagree, letting the discussions of traditionalist poetics continue in whatever space is devoted to that and the discussions of innovative poetics, whatever that turns out to be, move forward in this one. > > As for myself, I think that a good deal of that heat that's been generated here hasto do with the "ownership" of the name "haiku." Although it would be useful to me to have recourse to this name at certain times, it doesn't really mean as much to me as it obviously does to some others, and therefore I'd just as soon cede it to them. I don't know why, but somehow this all reminds me of the dispute between Greece and one of the former Yugoslav republics over the name "Macedonia." United Nations intervention has still not resolved this issue. But when I lived in Italy, "macedonia" (small m) was the word for "fruit salad"--an association with very positive connotations as far as I'm concerned. So from now on I am going to avoid the use of the h-word to refer to any poem using a 5-7-5 structure or any other similar short poem whatsoever, except where this is unavoidable, such as when citing something that someone else said. From now on, I promise to refer to all such poems as > "macedonia." > > > > > This is, after all, a list devoted to discussing "those directions in > poetry that are committed to innovations, renovations, and > investigations of form and/or/as content, to the questioning of > received forms and styles, and to the creation of the > otherwise unimagined, untried, unexpected, improbable, and > impossible." (I quote from the Poetics List Welcome Message.) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 19:05:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nicholas Ruiz III Subject: Symposium In-Reply-To: <45CE59AF.8030307@myuw.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit intertheory.org presents... --Symposium-- a political action roundtable committee. http://intertheory.org/symposium Information: Each symposium ends in a draft resolution, to be forwarded by Symposium to the appropriate officials. There are 10-12 symposia per year, each approximately four weeks in duration, dedicated to a problem in the cultural political landscape. Meetings are virtual and asynchronous in the listserv: intertheory@yahoogroups.com Symposium #1: U.S. Healthcare (March 2007) Participate by joining the listserv: intertheory-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Dr. Nicholas Ruiz III Chair, Symposium http://intertheory.org/symposium ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 16:56:32 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Libby Grand Jury / C-Span Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I just happened to turn on C-Span and found myself listening to the Grand Jury/Fitzgerald questioning of "Scooter Libby." An 8 hour affair. Absolutely fascinating - the machinations of Cheney and his Under-Lord re the media, Judith Miller et al, revealing classified documents (National Intelligence Estimate), etc. Madly trying to cover their arses re Joe Wilson's revelations. Good Theater Spooky Reality. If you miss it,I suspect C-Span will replay a few times over the next week. Check the web site. Stephen V ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 20:09:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Zimmerman Subject: Re: haiku Comments: cc: Daniel Zimmerman MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How about these? fog on the river docked boats jostle on the changing tide after the blizzard shovelers pitch snow only so high my newspaper too wet from the snowbank to read today ~ Daniel Zimmerman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Dylan Welch" To: Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 12:21 PM Subject: Re: haiku > > Again, "Haiku" doesn't need to be treated with a capital. It's not a > proper > noun. > > If I'm static and humourless, well, shucks, I'll try to let my hair down > for > you when I can. If I seem static, that's because I'm advocating for a > position out of years of study, and positing that against some serious > misunderstandings. What you say of Violi's poems is all true, but true of > the poem as a > POEM, not as a haiku. Yup, that's "static" -- or "rigid," you might say. > Look, > a rose is not a chrysanthemum. That's all I'm trying to say. Why assert > that > the poem is a haiku, when it clearly lacks understanding of haiku's > history, > aesthetics, and various other understandings? Why persist with what I > might > guess is a misunderstanding of the genre, indicated, among other things, > by > something as simple as treating the name of the genre as a proper noun > when it > isn't? I hesitate to say there's some arrogant ignorance going on here, > but > there does seem to be some resistance to the serious research that Charlie > and > I have encouraged. Sure, the poem is haiku-like, if you want to say that. > But that's an important distinction from claiming it as a haiku, and a > far cry > from claiming it to be about the best haiku ever. > > I'm a lot less static as you might think, except that from your > perspective > it may look that way. But over the years, as I've learned different things > about haiku (and still have much to learn), I've definitely evolved and > changed > my ideas on things. I used to think of haiku as a Zen art (a long time > ago). > I know better now. I used to think haiku was a nature poem. Well, > actually, > it's a *seasonal* reference that haiku is generally after, and nature > just > comes along for the ride (though of course it's true, therefore, that it > IS > mostly a nature poem, but not always). And I could list a few more > changed > understandings. But because the location of where my perspective is > evolving is > down the track from where it seems you are, the distance between our > perspectives probably makes my stance seem static. The movement of my > train seems so > slight to you because I'm probably at a different place on the haiku > track from > where you are, and the distance between us flatens your ability to detect > my > movement. I assure you my stance is not static, because even your > claiming > that I'm static encourages me to re-examine my perspectives to see if > that's > true, and to try to be responsive to that thought. > > Believe me, I find it really boring and imitative to write the "branches, > leaves, blossoms and bird" forms of haiku. I'm not advocxzating that at > all > (perhaps you thought I was?!?). No, I'm advocating a deeper understanding > of > haiku as a subset of "poetry," which thereby distinguishes Violi's poem > from > haiku. Most of the time, such a distinction wouldn't matter (how's that > for a > bit of not being static?), except for the fact that you claimed the poem > as > haiku -- and not just haiku, but a really darn good one. Not only is it > not a > darn good one, but it's not even a haiku at all. At most, it's hit just > one of > the many targets for haiku (brevity), but that single overlap with haiku > should not be confused with it's being haiku, which necessitates hitting > quite a > few more haiku targets than that. It's a great little poem, but I see > startling and fresh little poems like that all the time in the best haiku > journals > (and some of "branches, leaves, blossoms and bird" poems -- and they can > still > have their appeal to some folks, or have mild variations that can make > them > succeed). You try writing a cherry blossom haiku -- it's very hard to do > with > originality and freshness. > > I appreciate that you're seeing my advocation for a formally true haiku, > yet > seeing that I don't mean a 5-7-5 formalism (I hope). If my perspective is > claustrophobic to you (or others), I suppose that may be true. But believe > me, I > appreciate all sorts of short poems for what they are, without needing to > apply a label to them (as with Violi's poem). My feeling is that you > can't > fling poetry labels around willy-nilly based on a limited understanding > of the > label. Doing so without sufficient understanding of the history and > aesthetics > of haiku, for example, dilutes the notion of what haiku is. If poets try > to > speak carefully, you'd think they'd speak not only with care in their > words, > but with a responsibility towards the words that takes ownership for > understanding their meaning. In the case of haiku, there's a serious > disconnect > between popular perceptions and reality. In Japan, at your assertion that > Violi's > poem is a haiku, they would do one of two things: immediately and > politely > agree with you to your face (perhaps like saying to a child, yes dear, > the sun > is purple -- what a lovely drawing), or they would dismiss it without a > thought. > > I can hear you saying that there can be purple suns in haiku. I'm all for > creativity and poetic license -- believe it or not. But only when it comes > from > a position of understanding, not ignorance, about haiku and its history > and > aesthetics. Basho said to learn the rules and then forget them (meaning, > to > internalize them so thoroughly that you no longer have to think about > them). In > your case, meaning to be as polite as I say this, it seems you haven't > learned the rules yet. > > Consider the following throughts on mastery and understanding, thoughts > that > probably apply to any literature, or any art or craft. I think most people > progress through the following steps with their art, including poetry: > > > 1. Unconscious incompetence (the person doesn't know that he isn't > competent > or doesn't understand). > 2. Conscious incompetence (the person realizes that he isn't competent -- > the door is now open to learning). > 3. Conscious competence (the person has to consciously work at being > competent -- it doesn't yet come naturally). > 4. Unconscious competence (the person has internalized effective > techniques > so well that he no longer has to think about it, the way a quarterback > doesn't > have to think about how to throw a good spiral -- this is what I think > Basho > meant by "learn the rules and then forget them"). > > > Since you urge morphing, why is it you resist morphing your understanding > of > haiku? The question here isn't adherence to any kind of orthodox > behaviour, > but that too many people proceed with behaviour they think is orthodox > (thinking they know what a haiku is) when it isn't. See the difference? > > As for being humourless, well, I've always known I can't tell a joke to > save > the queen. I am in earnest, obviously. But you won't find me as inflexible > as you seem to think. > > Good wishes, > > Michael > > > In a message dated 09-Feb-07 9:04:30 PM Pacific Standard Time, > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU writes: > > Maybe with my good Protestant origins, I have never been at home with > adherence to any kind of orthodox system of behavior, but I find your > insistences about Haiku (origins and form) static and humorless. > Occasionally I work among elderly Chinese emigrants here in San > Francisco, > and indeed, for example, in making watercolors, many of them continue to > adhere unwaveringly to 'branches, leaves, blossoms and bird' forms - > sometimes attractive but boring, boring, rigid, etc. At best you want to > tear up the pages and introduce students to the fresh experience of > montage, > collage, etc. > Such as with Violi's haiku - the juxtaposition of what he has done > against > conventional content is startling, refreshing - a response that I find > with > what I can only sense to be 'good' translations of 'ancient' haiku. Much > of > which I suspect Paul Violi and many of us have been variably interested > readers - whether via Pound, Rexroth, Waley & on. > > Your argument for a formally true Haiku, seems as claustrophobic to me as > someone who might argue - with similar orthodox leanings - that Coltrane, > Rollins, etc., etc. are not making authentic "ballads". Morph, my > friend, > morph - it is, from my experience, at least, a mutable, non-static > universe > of which the contemporary spirit and practice of haiku is inextricably > involved. > > Stephen Vincent > http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 17:36:59 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Dylan Welch wrote: > As I understand it, Japanese is not accented the way English or Latin is. > Thus each "syllable" of a multisyllable word is generally pronounced evenly > in > Japanese. The Japanese word for a species of cuckoo, hototogisu, has each > syllable pronounced evenly, which is part of its music. As a more common > example, the word for cherry blossom, sakura, has each of its syllables at > about > the same pitch and length. It's *not* sa-KU-ra. Nor is it SA-ku-ra (like > the > beginning of "saccharine"). And of course it's also not "sa-ku-RA." On the > other hand, some Japanese people drop or greatly minimize the last syllable > in > some words when speaking (even though they would still count that sound in > haiku). Thus I've often heard a Japanese person speak of "haik" (with an > extremely subtle "u" after the "k") when they mean "haiku" -- or they might > say > "hototogeese" (though with a very quick "geese") and barely say the "oo" > sound > that normally follows in "hototogisu." If you ask the question "Desu ka," > it > typically sounds like "Des-ka." Otherwise, though, I think the sounds are > fairly > even. I know other words and phrases are commonly shortened or combined, > but > that's more of a colloquial compression of language than a variance in > pronunciation. I took Japanese for three years in highschool, and while i'm far from fluent, I do have some recall of of the issues revolving around this because it's some of the hardest stuff involving correct pronunciation, and my drill instructor japanese teacher ground them into our heads. I think she was more concerned with our pronouncing the language properly than understanding it. Basically, japanese syllable weight is determined by the onji, and accents happen in pitch rather than in syllable weight. So what you get often times is syllables getting shortened or lengthened so that the on fit the timing, because they shorten vowels that we normally hear as double vowels, because English is stress-timed and so syllable length isn't something that we contemplate a lot it just sort of happens by convention. Not so in japanese, the on are all the same length, so syllables will vary in length depending on how many on are in it. So for example in "ikimasho" (japanese for "let us go"), there are four syllables i-ki-ma-sho, but there are five on i-ki-ma-shy-o, all of which get the same amount of time. similarly with desu and the irregular verb form masu, the [u] vowel is generally a long vowel in English, whereas with japanese all vowels have long and short versions and so their terminal u's sound really chopped to western ears because they have to be distinguished from a longer vowel and a different meaning (i don't know if desoo or masoo are other words or if it would just sound like nonsense to a native speaker.) Once i got used to listening to it, it became apparent that the shortening of "su" that i thought i was hearing, while it doesn't happen, it wasn't nearly as pronounced as i thought it was because it was very similar to the su that one finds in the beginning of a word like "sushi" as it is pronounced in japanese (a slight but noticable difference from its English Cognate), or the shortened version in "sukoshi" (a small quantity, from which the English Scosh is derived). the [u] is always still there, but i think as English speakers what happens is that we mutate the foreign sounding vowels that we don't generally use into to consonant codas and our ears then turn something like "sukoshi" or "sukiyaki" into "scoshii" or "skyaki." Most japanese speakers can hear the difference and the dropped syllables, but English speakers have to learn to listen for it. I even vaguely remember my teacher saying that one of the signs of an american accent when speaking japanese is either dropping vowels or making vowels too long. so an american might render "kore wa usagi deshitaka" (was that a rabbit) as "Cord wa oozagy deshtaka" writing phonetically. The difference of course beign that where we are listening for syllables, the japanese are listening for mora, or onji, and the syllable is a slightly larger unit than a mora. I'm surprised i remember that many words, but i'm starting to think maybe i should go take a night class in japanese since so much of the fundamentals still seem to be there. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 17:45:51 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eireene Nealand Subject: Tarpaulin Sky Celebrates OBERIU--an anthology of Russian Absurdism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Please join us! Tarpaulin Sky celebrates OBERIU: a bilingual translation reading along with new Russian and =E9migr=E9 writing Eugene Ostashevsky Genya Turovskaya Ilya Bernstein Eireene Nealand Saturday February 24th 1:30-3:30pm @ The Bowery Poetry Club $3 308 Bowery, New York, NY 10012 ***ABOUT OBERIU*** It was a movement so artfully anarchic, and so quickly suppressed, that readers only began to discover its strange and singular brilliance three decades after it was extinguished-and then only in samizdat and emigre publications. Some called it the last of the Russian avant-garde, and others called it the first (and last) instance of Absurdism in Russia; however difficult to classify, it was OBERIU (from an acronym standing for The Union of Real Art), and the pleasures of its poetry and prose are, with this volume, at long last fully open to English-speaking readers. "OBERIU, sometimes called Russia's last avant-garde, is one of the most intriguing--and little known--movements of the years before World War II. The absurdist poets at its center--Alexander Vvedensky, Daniil Kharms, and Nikolai Zabolotsky--belonged to the first generation of writers to come of age after the October Revolution and hence stand apart from their Futurist predecessors. Less interested in coining neologisms than in destroying the protocols of semantic coherence and linguistic realism, these poets have produced a series of inventive, free-wheeling, and often hilarious po= etic texts in a variety of forms and genres.This anthology, the first large-scal= e English translation of OBERIU poetry, has been superbly edited and translated by the Russo-American poet Eugene Ostashevsky and his colleagues. In avant-garde annals, this is a milestone." --Marjorie Perloff "The OBERIU writers are a revelation, an aspect of Russian modernism in the early Soviet period that has been largely invisible to readers in English, and these translations are brilliant, as nervy and funny and demotic as if the work were written in an inspired English in the first place." =96Robert= Hass "OBERIU is as relevant today as ever." --Book Forum *** ABOUT THE READERS: Eugene Ostashevsky Born in St. Petersburg, Russia but raised in New York City, Eugene Ostashevsky is a poet, scholar and reckless metaphysician. A book of his poetry, The Off-Centaur, was published by Germ Folios, and his volume The Compleat Unraveller will be published in 2005 by Ugly Duckling Press. He is editor and co-translator of the forthcoming anthology, OBERIU and the Chinars: Russian Absurdism, 1927-1941. Ostashevsky won the 2003 Wytter Bynner Poetry Translation Fellowship for his translations from Russian. He teaches at NYU. Genya Turovskaya Genya Turovskaya is an American poet. She was born in Kiev, Ukraine in 1973 and grew up in New York City. Her original poetry and translations from Russian have appeared in Chicago Review, Conjunctions, 6x6, Aufgabe, Poets and Poems, Octopus, and other publications. She lives in Brooklyn where she edits the Eastern European Poets Series at Ugly Duckling Presse. Ilya Bernstein Ilya Bernstein, born in Moscow, is an =E9migr=E9 poet and translator, living in the nether-reaches of northern Manhattan. He is the translator of books by Italian architectural theorist Remo Guidieri, including Argonautics (Cooper Union, 1997), and has also translated poetry and children's stories by Daniil Kharms. Attention and Man is his first book of poems. It is also the first book in the new Eastern European Poets Series from Ugly Duckling Presse. Letterpressed cover. Eireene Nealand Eireene Nealand translates contemporary postmodernist poetry and writes about language and postmodernism in conjunciton with her Ph.d. work in Literature at UC Santa Cruz. She has degrees in Political Theory from UC Berkeley and UCLA. Her fiction has been published in Sidebrow, Fourteen Hills, Thin Air, New Standards, and Transfer and Tight magazines among other places. She won the Ivan Klima Fellowship in Fiction in 2004 and currently edits fiction for Tarpaulin Sky. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 21:40:21 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Crockett Subject: easy on the ego MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Somewhere amidst the anna nicole smith \ haiku smackdown was lost our invitation to read the latest instance of listenlight , the most unlikely poetry journal in the universe, presently featuring --- Christine Hamm, Caleb Puckett, Kimberly Truitt, Lisa Jarnot, Ridley Sindios, C A Conrad, Amanda Chiado, Suchoon Mo, Noah Eli Gordon, Sarah Veglahn, Joshua Marie Wilkinson --- I'd really love its release date proximity page rush acclivity be kept intact. Best regards, Jesse Crockett, editor ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 22:38:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: haiku In-Reply-To: <45CE59AF.8030307@myuw.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit haiku by ros chast: two volvos collide in stop & shop parking lot no one is injured On 2/10/07 6:47 PM, "Jason Quackenbush" wrote: > I love it, some macedonia for the list: > > "Idyll Thoughts" > > I don't wrote haiku. > to count syllables is fun. > Fucked your mom last night. > > "Talk About Stuff" > > Blah blah he said blah > blah natter guffaw she said > back. I got off the bus. > > both by me. Here's a favorite macedonia by Jack McCarthy: > > "The Super Polydent commercial I wish that Wilfred Brimley would do:" > > There's nothing worse > when yer down on the muffin than > a loose upper palate. > > I'm off now to add a "macedonia" entry to the wikipedia list of poetic forms. > > Semi-seriously though, my roommate my first year at berklee was a greek named > athanasios. Across the hall from us lived a fellow who claimed he was > from macedonia, but who thanos insisted was a Skopian and that the republic of > macedonia was a lie cooked up by Tito to legitimize bulgarian holdings > in historically greek territory. it struck me at the time that the whole thing > was a little bit silly, and that the worry about the skopian land grab > had very little to do with whether the slavs in the southeast of the former > yugoslavia called themselves macedonians or skopians or bulgarians or > whatever. i think, as such, the analogy to haiku is highly apropos. > > > Barry Schwabsky wrote: >> I think Joe's point is well taken. While this discussion has been very >> instructive in many ways, we should not forget that this is list whose topic >> is innovative poetics. I'm sure there are other lists available for the >> promulgation of traditionalist poetics, and some of the same people might >> even be on both lists, since there is no reason not to be interested in both. >> But to the extent that we are not, at some point we just have to respectfully >> agree to disagree, letting the discussions of traditionalist poetics continue >> in whatever space is devoted to that and the discussions of innovative >> poetics, whatever that turns out to be, move forward in this one. >> >> As for myself, I think that a good deal of that heat that's been generated >> here hasto do with the "ownership" of the name "haiku." Although it would be >> useful to me to have recourse to this name at certain times, it doesn't >> really mean as much to me as it obviously does to some others, and therefore >> I'd just as soon cede it to them. I don't know why, but somehow this all >> reminds me of the dispute between Greece and one of the former Yugoslav >> republics over the name "Macedonia." United Nations intervention has still >> not resolved this issue. But when I lived in Italy, "macedonia" (small m) was >> the word for "fruit salad"--an association with very positive connotations as >> far as I'm concerned. So from now on I am going to avoid the use of the >> h-word to refer to any poem using a 5-7-5 structure or any other similar >> short poem whatsoever, except where this is unavoidable, such as when citing >> something that someone else said. From now on, I promise to refer to all such >> poems as > >> "macedonia." >> >> >> >> >> This is, after all, a list devoted to discussing "those directions in >> poetry that are committed to innovations, renovations, and >> investigations of form and/or/as content, to the questioning of >> received forms and styles, and to the creation of the >> otherwise unimagined, untried, unexpected, improbable, and >> impossible." (I quote from the Poetics List Welcome Message.) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 23:40:06 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Larissa Shmailo Subject: Andy Warhol: In His Wake Opening Reception and Reading 2/22 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Andy Warhol: In His Wake Opening reception: Thursday, February 22, 2007, 6-10PM On the twentieth anniversary of Warhol's death, The Carrozini von Buhler Gallery presents Andy Warhol: In His Wake, a group exhibition of poetry and art works by artists from Warhol's Factory including original members Ultra Violet, Taylor Mead, Billy Name, and Ivy Nicholson. Also featured will be Anton Perich and Steve Joester, two artists who documented Warhol, as well as seven artists who have been influenced by him including Pamela Martin, William Tisdale, Amy Cohen Banker, Cynthia von Buhler, Molly Weingart, and Gary Azon. Andy Warhol: In His Wake will feature poetry, paintings, sculptures, projections, and photography. The Carrozini von Buhler Gallery will be transformed to look like Warhol's Silver Factory with glittering silver walls, disco balls, silver pillow balloons, and aluminum foil drapes. Five Minutes of Fame Reading 6-7:30 PM with Dorothy F. August, Star Black, Patricia Carragon, Greg Fuchs, Ron Kolm, Bill Kushner, Taylor Mead, Thad Rutkowski, Jackie Sheeler, Larissa Shmailo, Hal Sirowitz, and Carol Wierzbicki. The Carrozzini von Buhler Gallery 407 West 13t Street (between 9th Avenue & Washington Street) 646-336-8387 Subway: A, C, E & L to 14th Street at 8th Avenue. Free and open to the public. Larissa Shmailo_ slidingsca@aol.com_ (mailto:slidingsca@aol.com) _http://www.myspace.com/larissaworld_ (http://www.myspace.com/larissaworld) http//:www.cdbaby.com/cd/shmailo http//:larissashmailo.blogspot.com http://www.bigbridge.org/deathlshmailo.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 23:40:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: clifford Subject: Re: haiku mister lou is In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I like this one Tom _ acka Wordman ------------------------------------------------------------------- > many words for little poems > many words for little > poems are little words > > ------------------------------------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 21:43:38 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Paul Nelson Subject: Haiku MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is that a real haiku I mean a Japanese haiku or a Sears haiku. -- Paul E. Nelson Global Voices Radio http://www.AmericanSetnces.com http://www.globalvoicesradio.org www.splab.org 888.735.MEAT ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 01:14:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Ciccariello Subject: thought, finding form, rising MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline thought, finding form, rising -- Peter Ciccariello http://invisiblenotes.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 00:37:56 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Laura Winton Subject: Re: Anna Nicole Smith MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As far as my comments goes about perpetuating something, it wasn't = really about sexuality or femininity. It was more the idea that for me to find = out more about her life at this point would be to perpetuate -- I just lost = the perfect phrase I had -- this gaze into her life, this public voyeurism = that reality tv and people "famous for being famous" has encouraged. I don't buy that Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf is famous for being = famous. There was something in the first place that led people to know about the piece. A film, a play, etc. I realize it is a phrase that gets bandied about a lot, but I think that says something about the condition of = things. I had a professor once who said things become clich=E9s for a reason. That said, I'm still sorry for her tragedies. -----Original Message----- From: Alan Sondheim [mailto:sondheim@PANIX.COM]=20 Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 12:03 AM Subject: Re: Anna Nicole Smith Finally, I really don't know what she's perpetuating (or was used to=20 perpetuate); there are many other models for exaggerated sexuality for=20 example. - Alan On Fri, 9 Feb 2007, Laura Winton wrote: > I was no fan of Anna Nicole Smith. I could never really figure out = what she > was famous *for* and saw her as more of the trend of people who are = famous > for being famous (not unlike Paris Hilton). But it seems that of late = she > had turned very quickly into something of a tragic figure and her = death has > made me rethink maybe how *long* she might have been a tragic figure without > many people really knowing or recognizing it. So I do feel this = sadness > about it without knowing really why and at the same time I feel that = to find > out somehow perpetuates something about her and about our culture that = I'm > not sure I want to participate in further. > > Does that make any sense at all??? > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Alan Sondheim [mailto:sondheim@PANIX.COM] > Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 3:36 PM > Subject: Anna Nicole Smith > > She always fascinated me. Like Michael Jackson she broke a lot of = taboos, > she couldn't be placed. Her reality show was time slowed, almost = milky. > Howard K. Stern talked Ivy League, she murmured. Her son was there. I > never knew what I was watching. I was constantly thrown off, in a way = that > her son's death was thrown off, and her death, now, is thrown off. > > She couldn't be placed: just as soon as you had it figured out, it > transformed. I did guess that she and Howard were lovers; it was an = odd > subtext to the show. The photographs were sexy but meta-sexed; they = didn't > register properly, there was always something else going on. On = another > list people rave Anita Berber; there's a relationship. > > So poetics? Yes because this doesn't fit, it fractures, it breaks the > discourse of the Law, however you want to define it. It's not only > semantics, it's syntax that's broken down, just as reporters couldn't = get > "hold" of Michael Jackson. > > Then again, her life and death say something about our notions of = beauty, > a kind of inconceivable sexuality associated with it, the body can't = keep > up. What's incarnate falls apart; it's always already fallen apart. > > Finally, there are very real class (economic, geographic, educational) > issues here; like Tonya Harding, she couldn't keep up (I remember TH's > mother saying she couldn't raise an ice princess), or she kept up, on > her own track, in her own way, which is something few of us get to do. > > This really was upsetting. > > - Alan > > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > Work on YouTube, blog at http://nikuko.blogspot.com . Tel = 718-813-3285. > Webpage directory http://www.asondheim.org . Email: = sondheim@panix.com. > http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim for theory; also check > WVU Zwiki, Google for recent. Write for info on books, cds, = performance, > dvds, etc. = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Work on YouTube, blog at http://nikuko.blogspot.com . Tel 718-813-3285. Webpage directory http://www.asondheim.org . Email: sondheim@panix.com. http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim for theory; also check WVU Zwiki, Google for recent. Write for info on books, cds, performance, dvds, etc. = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 00:50:52 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charlie Rossiter Subject: haiku--what are we here for MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit It warms my heart that the haiku discussion has prompted thought about what we're here for. I don't care what the rules say, I'm here to get whatever I can to write better poems of any type. And by the way, if anyone out there cares to get diverted for a bit I think the virelay is way under-appreciated and under-noticed. Charlie -- "Poetry is good for you and so is the blues." Charlie said that. www.poetrypoetry.com where you hear poems read by poets who wrote them www.myspace.com/avantretro (hear avantretro poems) www.myspace.com/whiskeybucketbluesreview hear Charlie & Henry sing the blues www.myspace.com/jackthe71special hear Jack's original blues, blues rock & roots ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 21:00:46 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Webster Schultz Subject: Language as Responsibility: new TINFISH chapbook Comments: To: s.wittkopp@comcast.net, Subramanian Shankar , Sherman Souther , Sage Uilani Takehiro , sawako@factorial.org, Kenneth Sherwood , =?UTF-8?B?6auY6YeO44CA5ZC+5pyX?= , "Steven L. Tanaka" , Teresia Teaiwa , Trevor Joyce , Katerina Teaiwa , Keith Tuma , Kalei Tsuha , carrie takahata , Dan Taulapapa McMullin , tprendergast@wooster.com, timothy.a.spurgin@lawrence.edu, utopical@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear friends-- Tinfish Press is proud to announce the sewing, stamping, and publication of the following; L A N G U A G E _ A S _ R E S P O N S I B I L I T Y by Leonard Schwartz • 2006 • $12 Design by Lian Litvin This hand-sewn chapbook contains three parts: 1) in which the Israel poet Aharon Shabtai offers witness. 2) in which a publishing vision emerges from the rich sources mingling in Jerusalem. 3) a verse essay on poetic form in America by Leonard Schwartz that argues responsibility is the ability to respond. Language as Responsibility is something of a departure for Tinfish Press, as its context is the Middle East, not the Pacific. But its author, who now lives in Washington State, argues forcefully for a poetics of publishing that crosses boundaries of language and difference (in this instance Arabic and Hebrew, Palestine and Israel). Such crossings fit Tinfish’s philosophy, hence this beautiful chapbook. See http://tinfishpress.com/chapbooks.html for more details and to order copies. Tinfish books are also available through Small Press Distrubution, http://spdbooks.org Aloha, Susan Susan M. Schultz Tinfish Press ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 14:49:02 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anny Ballardini Subject: Re: haiku mister lou is In-Reply-To: <8493a68c0702102040p294d7696rd445021d93cdc05c@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I also noticed, thanks Clifford for bringing it back. On 2/11/07, clifford wrote: > > I like this one Tom _ acka Wordman > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > many words for little poems > > many words for little > > poems are little words > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 10:08:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Wilcox Subject: Third Thursday Open Mic in Albany, NY Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed the Poetry Motel Foundation presents Third Thursday Open Mic for Poets now at the Social Justice Center 33 Central Ave., Albany, NY Thursday, February 15, 2007=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 7:00 sign up; 7:30 start Featured Poet: John Raymond who says he is =93a local rapscallion who is coming out of=A0seclusion = to=20 take part in the Open Mic scene.=A0 He enjoys=A0music, backpacking, and=20= smoked meats.=94 Sheet Music The pushers of the rattling shopping carts on the=A0five a.m. street sift through the discarded cores of last night's fruit and the crows crow their graveled songs and her hair one strand on the bed curls like a G clef shivering with the turning of a small creaking fan $3.00 donation.=A0 Your host since 1997: Dan Wilcox. =A0 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 10:17:03 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Side Subject: CALLING ALL DUSIE POETS Comments: To: british-poets@jiscmail.ac.uk, wryting-l@listserv.wvu.edu I'm forwarding this invitation from Susana Gardner to join the dusi/e-chap kollektiv for the second annual chap making/swapping collective with several dozen other poets. The kollektiv is coming together once again and if you have had your work in Dusie or it is forthcoming (this includes all aspects of Dusie) she says consider yourself invited. Write to her at dusieli@yahoo.com to be signed up for the listserv. She stresses that, unless invited by her, you must have been published in Dusie or have work forthcoming in it. Some of the things you will be expected to take part in are: * Being a part of a group-project (group dialogue via post and email) * Getting daily emails via the listserv (and hopefully contributing when possible) * Receiving mail nearly everyday for 2 months from other poets * Publishing your chap the way you imagine it. * Sending your chap out to ALL of the participants within the specified time-frame given doing the sufficient print run (and to send them out to reviewers too) If you are interested, please reply to Susana and not me as I have nothing to do with this and am merely passing the message on. You can contact her at: editor@dusie.org ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 10:34:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Wilcox Subject: Haiku You Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Alright, enough idiotic exchanges about haiku. Anyone want to start bashing limericks? DWx ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 10:14:49 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Haas Bianchi Subject: Iowa City Reading Ray Bianchi and Chris Glomski In-Reply-To: <20070211151658.CD2089400084@mwinf3209.me.freeserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I realize that many of you will be at AWP the weekend of March 2-3 2007 but if you happen to be in Iowa City I am reading with Chris Glomski at Prairie Lights (See Below) anyone who comes to the reading I will be buying drinks at the Deadwood afterwords Ray Bianchi Prairie Lights Store Events - March 2, 7:00 PM Time: Friday, March 2, 2007 7:00 PM Title of Event: CHRIS GLOMSKI & RAY BIANCHI Poets Chris Glomski and Ray Bianchi will read from their work. Chris Glomski, who co-curates the popular Danny's Reading Series in Chicago, will read from Transparencies Lifted from Noon, a book that seeks to radicalize both lyric and narrative alike. Ray Bianchi will read from Circular Descent- a collection of "up-to-date heartbreaking cubistic international songs." -Peter Gizzi ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 11:16:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcus Bales Subject: Re: Haiku You Comments: To: Dan Wilcox In-Reply-To: <94ffeedf3964014eaf22df6b2d06b356@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Real limericks or fake limericks? M On 11 Feb 2007 at 10:34, Dan Wilcox wrote: > Alright, enough idiotic exchanges about haiku. > Anyone want to start bashing limericks? > DWx > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.17.35/680 - Release Date: > 2/10/2007 9:15 PM > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 16:21:58 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: Haiku You In-Reply-To: <94ffeedf3964014eaf22df6b2d06b356@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Funny you should mention that. I had just been thinking it might be an interesting project to translate some h.... -- excuse, some macedonia into limericks or vice versa. (Or perhaps it would be better to refer to them as senryu than macedonia? I defer to the experts.) For instance, I found this macedonia by Basho online: Old pond Frog jump-in Water sound and that might turn into a limerick like: There once was a Japanese frog Who jumped into a watery bog he made such a splash But that watery crash Went unheard by the Japanese frog. On the other hand, there is this limerick by Edward Lear: There was an Old Person of Buda, Whose conduct grew ruder and ruder; Till at last, with a hammer, They silenced his clamour, By smashing that Person of Buda. I could imagine that being translated into something like this: Raucous old person watch out for a hammer next time you're smashed Dan Wilcox wrote: Alright, enough idiotic exchanges about haiku. Anyone want to start bashing limericks? DWx ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 11:47:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Zimmerman Subject: Re: Haiku You MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Limericks? Hey, why not? . . . when swallowing pride, rest assured: the morsel may not leave you cured; you may never pas the concomitant gas, but you will, in the end, have endured. ~ Daniel Zimmerman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barry Schwabsky" To: Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 11:21 AM Subject: Re: Haiku You > Funny you should mention that. I had just been thinking it might be an > interesting project to translate some h.... -- excuse, some macedonia into > limericks or vice versa. (Or perhaps it would be better to refer to them > as senryu than macedonia? I defer to the experts.) > > For instance, I found this macedonia by Basho online: > > > Old pond > Frog jump-in > Water sound > and that might turn into a limerick like: > > There once was a Japanese frog > Who jumped into a watery bog > he made such a splash > But that watery crash > Went unheard by the Japanese frog. > > > On the other hand, there is this limerick by Edward Lear: > > There was an Old Person of Buda, > Whose conduct grew ruder and ruder; > Till at last, with a hammer, > They silenced his clamour, > By smashing that Person of Buda. > > I could imagine that being translated into something like this: > > Raucous old person > watch out for a hammer > next time you're smashed > > > > Dan Wilcox wrote: > Alright, enough idiotic exchanges about haiku. > Anyone want to start bashing limericks? > DWx > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 11:59:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: Haiku You In-Reply-To: <45CEFB16.12993.63B4B8@marcus.designerglass.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit there once was a poetry list serv its image it tried to conserve but the haiku came round and blew them out of town now the list serv is dissed for its nerve On 2/11/07 11:16 AM, "Marcus Bales" wrote: > Real limericks or fake limericks? > > M > > On 11 Feb 2007 at 10:34, Dan Wilcox wrote: > >> Alright, enough idiotic exchanges about haiku. >> Anyone want to start bashing limericks? >> DWx >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.17.35/680 - Release Date: >> 2/10/2007 9:15 PM >> ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 12:31:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Factory School Subject: Meet the Press (PS 7 and 8) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed public statement: "A Need for Creed - HT's Apocalyptic Present to the=20 world" =A0 "Poetry can extend the document," so what can a poetry book series=20 document? And to what extent? =A0 In its desire to present a picture of the conflict between good and=20 evil, Heretical Texts deliberately creates, if not a drama, at least a=20= set of easily visualizable scenes and strongly-drawn characters that=20 because of their imaginative power remain fixed in the reader=92s mind. * public statement: "The University Research Lab and the Institutional=20 Self-Imagination" At the outbreak of the "War For Iraq," a group of professors, students,=20= activists, and "community members" dropped out of school to found a=20 university. Giving up on the project to work as anarcho-consultants in=20= Gotham City, they left behind only a trail of notebooks, blogs,=20 photographs, and research studios devoted to historical antecedents.=20 What were they thinking? * =A0 Meet the Press: An Evening With Factory School Design Team Poetry Project at St. Marks Church Monday, 8:00 pm =A0 http://www.poetryproject.com/calendar.php ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 12:40:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: heidi arnold Subject: Re: Haiku You In-Reply-To: <94ffeedf3964014eaf22df6b2d06b356@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline mi mi mi said the poet of noeate he he he said the list serve of verve it may over rhyme from such overtime but who cares -- and that's the last word On 2/11/07, Dan Wilcox wrote: > > Alright, enough idiotic exchanges about haiku. > Anyone want to start bashing limericks? > DWx > -- www.heidiarnold.org http://peaceraptor.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 13:09:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: TNWK Bulletin 1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline TNWK www.tnwk.net (new conversation pieces) - performing at OPENPORT (Chicago) sound & language festival: Links Hall on Friday February 16th with: Donna Rutherford (UK) Talan Memmott (US) TNWK (UK) and Saturday February 17th with: Goat Island (US) Dana Vinger & Robyn Okrant (US) TNWK (UK) Wilton Azevedo (BR) also: PANEL DISCUSSION Tyne Dogger, Thames, Fitzroy: westerly variable @ Chicago Cultural Center Saturday, February 17, 2PM - 3:30PM, Free Fiona Wright Donna Rutherford TNWK AND BASE SPACE EXHIBIT Sheet of Paper Live Installation February 19=9621. Exhibit open for viewing February 22 and 24 in Columbus BLDG of The School of the Art Institute of Chicago, 280 S. Columbus Drive, Free for more information: http://www.openportchicago.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 18:10:22 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: reJennifer Bartlett Subject: Issue 5 of Saint Elizabeth Street Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Issue #5 of Saint Elizabeth Street has arrived @ www.saintelizabethstreet.org with interviews by Adam Clay, Jen Benka, Andrea Baker, Kate Greenstreet, and Bruce Covey. Best, Jennifer _________________________________________________________________ From predictions to trailers, check out the MSN Entertainment Guide to the Academy Awards® http://movies.msn.com/movies/oscars2007/?icid=ncoscartagline1 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 18:51:44 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: Issue 5 of Saint Elizabeth Street In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Nice. I appreciate the clarity of focus: present just a few things, in such a way that each one can be savored. The opposite of journals that present vast amounts of material by great numbers of people so that it becomes very difficult for anything in particular to stand out. Here, with just one poem and one interview per poet, I already feel like I've been properly "introduced" to each one. A dinner party, not a disco. Thank you! reJennifer Bartlett wrote: Issue #5 of Saint Elizabeth Street has arrived @ www.saintelizabethstreet.org with interviews by Adam Clay, Jen Benka, Andrea Baker, Kate Greenstreet, and Bruce Covey. Best, Jennifer _________________________________________________________________ From predictions to trailers, check out the MSN Entertainment Guide to the Academy Awards® http://movies.msn.com/movies/oscars2007/?icid=ncoscartagline1 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 14:09:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eric Subject: Re: Haiku You In-Reply-To: <11d43b500702110940oa979357lc4518b2995e37f89@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>but who cares -- and that's the last word There once was a list of poetics abuzz with political frenetics, then haiku came to town and calmed them all down and now they discuss ... poetics. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 14:04:16 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: Haiku You In-Reply-To: <45CF69E2.5010408@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Last words are important. Here I was hoping for, not "poetics," but maybe a last word like . . . oh, "diuretics." Hal On Feb 11, 2007, at 1:09 PM, Eric wrote: > >>but who cares -- and that's the last word > > There once was a list of poetics > abuzz with political frenetics, > then haiku came to town > and calmed them all down > and now they discuss ... poetics. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 14:33:29 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: From Kent Johnson re haiku In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Fwding this post from Kent: At 2:16 PM -0600 2/11/07, Kent Johnson wrote: >Anyway, I was clicking around in this haiku discussion at Poetics, >seeing the exchange, including yours, on "rules," syllable count, >etc. Maybe I missed mention of this, not having read through all of >the posts, but has no one pointed out that there's been a vibrant >tradition of "rule-breaking" haiku in Japan since the 1910s, with >Ogiwara Seisensui and the Soun (Layered Clouds) group, which >included great and beloved "free-haiku" poets like Taneda Santoka >and Ozaki Hosai? > >Just wondering, as there is wonderful work in this tradition-- and >given what seems to be a growing interest in the "short poem" within >innovative scene, this is a treasure trove. Plenty of stuff in >translation of Santoka and Hosai. A great book, too, is Makoto >Ueda's Modern Japanese Haiku. > Joe ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 15:34:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eric Subject: Re: Haiku You In-Reply-To: <325E4A65-A779-44D2-8A16-9E58CA49AD40@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Last words are important. Here I was > hoping for, not "poetics," but maybe > a last word like . . . oh, "diuretics." Thanks, Hal! I was thinking of kinetics then decided to go with the anticlimactic poetics, emphasizing its self-evident nature with the ellipsis. But maybe you're right ... ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 14:43:16 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: Re: From Kent Johnson re haiku In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I'll second that. Santoka and Hosai are my two favorite haiku poets. have their fotos on the wall here >From: Joe Amato >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: From Kent Johnson re haiku >Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 14:33:29 -0600 > >Fwding this post from Kent: > >At 2:16 PM -0600 2/11/07, Kent Johnson wrote: >>Anyway, I was clicking around in this haiku discussion at Poetics, seeing >>the exchange, including yours, on "rules," syllable count, etc. Maybe I >>missed mention of this, not having read through all of the posts, but has >>no one pointed out that there's been a vibrant tradition of >>"rule-breaking" haiku in Japan since the 1910s, with Ogiwara Seisensui and >>the Soun (Layered Clouds) group, which included great and beloved >>"free-haiku" poets like Taneda Santoka and Ozaki Hosai? >> >>Just wondering, as there is wonderful work in this tradition-- and given >>what seems to be a growing interest in the "short poem" within innovative >>scene, this is a treasure trove. Plenty of stuff in translation of Santoka >>and Hosai. A great book, too, is Makoto Ueda's Modern Japanese Haiku. >> > >Joe _________________________________________________________________ From predictions to trailers, check out the MSN Entertainment Guide to the Academy Awards® http://movies.msn.com/movies/oscars2007/?icid=ncoscartagline1 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 18:15:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tracey Gagne Subject: Re: Vagina Monologues Gets New Name In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Puh-lease! I find the term "hoohaa" much more offensive. On Feb 9, 2007, at 12:52 PM, mIEKAL aND wrote: > (censorship has become so commonplace that this didn't even make any > national news source....) > > Vagina Monologues Gets New Name > > By Summer Minor > > http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/145495/ > vagina_monologues_gets_new_name.html > > The Atlantic Theaters marquis in Atlantic Beach Florida caused a stir > when they changed the advertisement for the Vagina Monologues to the > "Hoohaa" Monologues after receiving a complaint about the play's name. > > A driver complained to the theater, saying that she saw the title and > was upset that her niece had also seen the title. > > Bryce Pfanenstiel, of the Atlantic Theater, said "We got a complaint > about this play The Vagina Monologues. We decided we would just use > child slang for it. That's how we decided on Hoohah Monologues." > > Though the theater says they trying not to offend anyone, some are > upset over the change. "A child who is old enough to read it on a sign > should already know what 'vagina' is, as well as vulva, penis, > scrotum, clitoris," some are saying about the sign change. > > The Vagina Monologues is an award winning play written by Eve Ensler > which premiered at the off-Broadway Westside Theatre in 1996. The play > is a series of monologues preformed by women that relate to the > vagina, be it through sex, love, rape, menstruation, mutilation, > masturbation, birth, orgasm, the variety of names for the vagina, or > simply as a physical aspect of the female body. A recurring theme > throughout the piece is the vagina as a tool of female empowerment, > and the ultimate embodiment of individuality. > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 15:20:20 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Starr Subject: Reading at Open Books, Seattle, Tuesday, 2/13 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tuesday, 2/13, at 7:30 at Open Books, 2414 N. 45th St. Seattle, WA 98103. Please feel free to pass this on if you know of interested folks. Here's the description of the reading from the store's calendar: REBECCA LOUDON & RON STARR // Tuesday, February 13, at 7:30 PM We are happy to host two poets with books recently published by Edmonds-based Ravenna Press. Ron Starr's inventive book, _A Map by a Dim Lamp_ ($12.95), flows from the belief held by Oulipo, the French experimental writing group, that form is freeing, and that new forms must constantly be created. Mr. Starr, in "Luther's Narrow Road," replaces some of the words in Basho's classic haiku with those from a Martin Luther essay, resulting in poems such as, "An offense / has settled on a bare Christ -- / autumn evening." Sharp intelligence, humor, close attention to the details of rhythm and sense, and a fascination with religious texts allow his writing to spark on various levels, including the baroque/modern oddness of its structures. Another example: one section of his "Creation Myths of the Latter Urbanites" starts, "In the beginning green grass created happiness and envy. The expressways were without Fords and Volvos, and dusk was upon the fences of the domiciles...." _Radish King_ ($13.95) is Rebecca Loudon's deliciously dark and darkly hilarious collection. Things domestic go seriously wrong -- "She's ready to go it alone, more than ready / having tired of and tidied her family, / having sewed her daughter, her son, into waterproof coats." The poems are dreamily menacing, permeated with a sort of courtship of threat and sex. "I want to hurt you in a Rock Hudson Doris Day kind of way." And where else will you find a poem like "Everyone's Favorite Holiday Suicide: A Letter in which Violet Bick Addresses George Bailey for the Last Time," ending (we're sorry to give it away, but we're compelled), "I hope more than anything you just have the courage to jump." She is also the author of the fever-dreamish book _Navigate, Amelia Earhart's Letters Home_, mentioned in our December 2006 newsletter. This promises to be a quirky and dynamic evening. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 10:47:23 +1100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alison Croggon Subject: Re: Haiku You In-Reply-To: <45CF7DD5.1020607@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Somehow this, one of my favourite limericks, seems strangely appropriate: There was a young man of Japan Whose poetry never would scan. When asked why 'twas so He replied, "Yes, I know, But I always try to get as many words in the last line as I possibly can." -- Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 15:53:45 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: tlrelf Subject: Re: Vagina Monologues Gets New Name MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Me, too. Furthermore, changing the name for the reasons outlined, just feeds into what this play is intended to thwart, don't you think? Ter > Puh-lease! > > I find the term "hoohaa" much more offensive. > > > On Feb 9, 2007, at 12:52 PM, mIEKAL aND wrote: > >> (censorship has become so commonplace that this didn't even make any >> national news source....) >> >> Vagina Monologues Gets New Name >> >> By Summer Minor >> >> http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/145495/ >> vagina_monologues_gets_new_name.html >> >> The Atlantic Theaters marquis in Atlantic Beach Florida caused a stir >> when they changed the advertisement for the Vagina Monologues to the >> "Hoohaa" Monologues after receiving a complaint about the play's name. >> >> A driver complained to the theater, saying that she saw the title and >> was upset that her niece had also seen the title. >> >> Bryce Pfanenstiel, of the Atlantic Theater, said "We got a complaint >> about this play The Vagina Monologues. We decided we would just use >> child slang for it. That's how we decided on Hoohah Monologues." >> >> Though the theater says they trying not to offend anyone, some are upset >> over the change. "A child who is old enough to read it on a sign should >> already know what 'vagina' is, as well as vulva, penis, scrotum, >> clitoris," some are saying about the sign change. >> >> The Vagina Monologues is an award winning play written by Eve Ensler >> which premiered at the off-Broadway Westside Theatre in 1996. The play >> is a series of monologues preformed by women that relate to the vagina, >> be it through sex, love, rape, menstruation, mutilation, masturbation, >> birth, orgasm, the variety of names for the vagina, or simply as a >> physical aspect of the female body. A recurring theme throughout the >> piece is the vagina as a tool of female empowerment, and the ultimate >> embodiment of individuality. >> ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 18:59:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Haiku You In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed A good one. And helps disprove Gershon Legman's contention that limericks are supposed to be lewd. Legman, probably the greatest folklorist of filth, edited The Limerick, a collection of 1700 examples, with scholarly apparatus. It's the locus clasicus, and I think it's still available in reprint, but there are a lot of very cheap copies available at AbeBooks. Should be on every bookshelf. Mark At 06:47 PM 2/11/2007, you wrote: >Somehow this, one of my favourite limericks, seems strangely appropriate: > >There was a young man of Japan >Whose poetry never would scan. >When asked why 'twas so >He replied, "Yes, I know, >But I always try to get as many words in the last line as I possibly can." > >-- >Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au >Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com >Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 23:57:52 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew Taylor Subject: CFP: "Stanley Cavell and Literary Criticism" - conference May 2008 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit CFP: 'Stanley Cavell and Literary Criticism', conference, May 9-11 2008, Edinburgh University. Stanley Cavell's work has been influential for the theory and practice of literary criticism for many years. From his consideration of Beckett and Shakespeare in his first book, Must We Mean What We Say? (1969) to the recent collection of writing on Emerson, Emerson's Transcendental Etudes (2003), Cavell's philosophical concerns have consistently been grounded in the problems and challenges offered by literary texts. This conference, the first to consider explicitly the connection between philosophical practice and literary art in Cavell, will include major scholars from both sides of the Atlantic. Professor Cavell has agreed to participate in the event. An edited volume of specially commissioned essays arising out of papers given at the conference is also planned. Possible topics for consideration include: literary ethics; speech act theory; literary and philosophical romanticism; the idea of America; Shakespeare; modernism and modernity. Abstracts of no more than 500 words should be sent to Andrew.Taylor@ed.ac.uk. The deadline for submissions is May 1, 2007. James Loxley, Lee Spinks, Andrew Taylor (English Literature, University of Edinburgh) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 18:01:45 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Coffey Subject: Re: Vagina Monologues Gets New Name In-Reply-To: <018201c74e37$ddddb1d0$5b650844@homen5ledppmlr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Yeah -- too bad the playwright couldn't make some short-notice additions to the script, to play up the ludicrousness of the name change. Hoohaa reminds me of Hee Haw, and now I have this image of people popping out of the cornfield. Thanks, Atlantic Beach! On 2/11/07, tlrelf wrote: > Me, too. Furthermore, changing the name for the reasons outlined, just feeds > into what this play is intended to thwart, don't you think? > > Ter > > > Puh-lease! > > > > I find the term "hoohaa" much more offensive. > > > > > > On Feb 9, 2007, at 12:52 PM, mIEKAL aND wrote: > > > >> (censorship has become so commonplace that this didn't even make any > >> national news source....) > >> > >> Vagina Monologues Gets New Name > >> > >> By Summer Minor > >> > >> http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/145495/ > >> vagina_monologues_gets_new_name.html > >> > >> The Atlantic Theaters marquis in Atlantic Beach Florida caused a stir > >> when they changed the advertisement for the Vagina Monologues to the > >> "Hoohaa" Monologues after receiving a complaint about the play's name. > >> > >> A driver complained to the theater, saying that she saw the title and > >> was upset that her niece had also seen the title. > >> > >> Bryce Pfanenstiel, of the Atlantic Theater, said "We got a complaint > >> about this play The Vagina Monologues. We decided we would just use > >> child slang for it. That's how we decided on Hoohah Monologues." > >> > >> Though the theater says they trying not to offend anyone, some are upset > >> over the change. "A child who is old enough to read it on a sign should > >> already know what 'vagina' is, as well as vulva, penis, scrotum, > >> clitoris," some are saying about the sign change. > >> > >> The Vagina Monologues is an award winning play written by Eve Ensler > >> which premiered at the off-Broadway Westside Theatre in 1996. The play > >> is a series of monologues preformed by women that relate to the vagina, > >> be it through sex, love, rape, menstruation, mutilation, masturbation, > >> birth, orgasm, the variety of names for the vagina, or simply as a > >> physical aspect of the female body. A recurring theme throughout the > >> piece is the vagina as a tool of female empowerment, and the ultimate > >> embodiment of individuality. > >> > -- http://hyperhypo.org/blog http://www.pftborder.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 16:39:57 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Vagina Monologues Gets New Name In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 11-Feb-07, at 3:15 PM, Tracey Gagne wrote: > Puh-lease! > > I find the term "hoohaa" much more offensive. How good of you. > > > On Feb 9, 2007, at 12:52 PM, mIEKAL aND wrote: > >> (censorship has become so commonplace that this didn't even make any >> national news source....) >> >> Vagina Monologues Gets New Name >> >> By Summer Minor >> >> http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/145495/ >> vagina_monologues_gets_new_name.html >> >> The Atlantic Theaters marquis in Atlantic Beach Florida caused a stir >> when they changed the advertisement for the Vagina Monologues to the >> "Hoohaa" Monologues after receiving a complaint about the play's >> name. >> >> A driver complained to the theater, saying that she saw the title and >> was upset that her niece had also seen the title. >> >> Bryce Pfanenstiel, of the Atlantic Theater, said "We got a complaint >> about this play The Vagina Monologues. We decided we would just use >> child slang for it. That's how we decided on Hoohah Monologues." >> >> Though the theater says they trying not to offend anyone, some are >> upset over the change. "A child who is old enough to read it on a >> sign should already know what 'vagina' is, as well as vulva, penis, >> scrotum, clitoris," some are saying about the sign change. >> >> The Vagina Monologues is an award winning play written by Eve Ensler >> which premiered at the off-Broadway Westside Theatre in 1996. The >> play is a series of monologues preformed by women that relate to the >> vagina, be it through sex, love, rape, menstruation, mutilation, >> masturbation, birth, orgasm, the variety of names for the vagina, or >> simply as a physical aspect of the female body. A recurring theme >> throughout the piece is the vagina as a tool of female empowerment, >> and the ultimate embodiment of individuality. >> > > George Bowering, M.A. Acclaimed for his modesty. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 17:01:40 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: Vagina Monologues Gets New Name In-Reply-To: <018201c74e37$ddddb1d0$5b650844@homen5ledppmlr> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, & I also like the COOCHIE SNORCHER vagina monologue..... On Feb 11, 2007, at 3:53 PM, tlrelf wrote: > Me, too. Furthermore, changing the name for the reasons outlined, > just feeds into what this play is intended to thwart, don't you think? > > Ter > >> Puh-lease! >> >> I find the term "hoohaa" much more offensive. >> >> >> On Feb 9, 2007, at 12:52 PM, mIEKAL aND wrote: >> >>> (censorship has become so commonplace that this didn't even make >>> any national news source....) >>> >>> Vagina Monologues Gets New Name >>> >>> By Summer Minor >>> >>> http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/145495/ >>> vagina_monologues_gets_new_name.html >>> >>> The Atlantic Theaters marquis in Atlantic Beach Florida caused a >>> stir when they changed the advertisement for the Vagina >>> Monologues to the "Hoohaa" Monologues after receiving a complaint >>> about the play's name. >>> >>> A driver complained to the theater, saying that she saw the title >>> and was upset that her niece had also seen the title. >>> >>> Bryce Pfanenstiel, of the Atlantic Theater, said "We got a >>> complaint about this play The Vagina Monologues. We decided we >>> would just use child slang for it. That's how we decided on >>> Hoohah Monologues." >>> >>> Though the theater says they trying not to offend anyone, some >>> are upset over the change. "A child who is old enough to read it >>> on a sign should already know what 'vagina' is, as well as >>> vulva, penis, scrotum, clitoris," some are saying about the sign >>> change. >>> >>> The Vagina Monologues is an award winning play written by Eve >>> Ensler which premiered at the off-Broadway Westside Theatre in >>> 1996. The play is a series of monologues preformed by women that >>> relate to the vagina, be it through sex, love, rape, >>> menstruation, mutilation, masturbation, birth, orgasm, the >>> variety of names for the vagina, or simply as a physical aspect >>> of the female body. A recurring theme throughout the piece is >>> the vagina as a tool of female empowerment, and the ultimate >>> embodiment of individuality. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 21:08:33 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Crockett Subject: Listenlight MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Guillermo and I wish to thank all those who make Listenlight a "competitive" poetry journal, a metric we're taking on merit of receiveing close to ten thousand page views last month, & is well on its way to achieving the same statistic for this month ---- thanks to all who've visited, linked, commented, & especially to all who've sent their work in for review. Without you, we're nothing. Tee hee :-) Cheers ! Jesse Crockett & Guillermo Parra @ http://listenlight.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 19:07:14 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Haiku You In-Reply-To: <94ffeedf3964014eaf22df6b2d06b356@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I love the limerick form. I write in it all the time. Dan Wilcox wrote: > Alright, enough idiotic exchanges about haiku. > Anyone want to start bashing limericks? > DWx ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 19:15:17 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Haiku You In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20070211184908.05eb3d60@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The idea that a limerick must be lewd is a common amateur limerick writers mistake, similarly, the need for five lines. Both of these targets are not nearly as important as the necessity of a slow moving to fast rhyme and the requisite of novelty in the tail of the poem. Aiming at bawdiness and a rigid adherence to the three stress three stress two stress two stress three stress structure is the sign of an unsophisticated limerick writer, and such people cannot be said to truly be writing limericks. Mark Weiss wrote: > A good one. > > And helps disprove Gershon Legman's contention that limericks are > supposed to be lewd. Legman, probably the greatest folklorist of filth, > edited The Limerick, a collection of 1700 examples, with scholarly > apparatus. It's the locus clasicus, and I think it's still available in > reprint, but there are a lot of very cheap copies available at AbeBooks. > Should be on every bookshelf. > > Mark > > At 06:47 PM 2/11/2007, you wrote: > >> Somehow this, one of my favourite limericks, seems strangely appropriate: >> >> There was a young man of Japan >> Whose poetry never would scan. >> When asked why 'twas so >> He replied, "Yes, I know, >> But I always try to get as many words in the last line as I possibly >> can." >> >> -- >> Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au >> Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com >> Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 22:42:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Zimmerman Subject: Re: Haiku You MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks, Jason. We've certainly 'murdered to dissect' the haiku sufficiently. Let's hope we don't proctologize the limerick as well. ~ Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason Quackenbush" To: Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 10:15 PM Subject: Re: Haiku You > The idea that a limerick must be lewd is a common amateur limerick writers > mistake, similarly, the need for five lines. Both of these targets are not > nearly as important as the necessity of a slow moving to fast rhyme and > the requisite of novelty in the tail of the poem. Aiming at bawdiness and > a rigid adherence to the three stress three stress two stress two stress > three stress structure is the sign of an unsophisticated limerick writer, > and such people cannot be said to truly be writing limericks. > > Mark Weiss wrote: >> A good one. >> >> And helps disprove Gershon Legman's contention that limericks are >> supposed to be lewd. Legman, probably the greatest folklorist of filth, >> edited The Limerick, a collection of 1700 examples, with scholarly >> apparatus. It's the locus clasicus, and I think it's still available in >> reprint, but there are a lot of very cheap copies available at AbeBooks. >> Should be on every bookshelf. >> >> Mark >> >> At 06:47 PM 2/11/2007, you wrote: >> >>> Somehow this, one of my favourite limericks, seems strangely >>> appropriate: >>> >>> There was a young man of Japan >>> Whose poetry never would scan. >>> When asked why 'twas so >>> He replied, "Yes, I know, >>> But I always try to get as many words in the last line as I possibly >>> can." >>> >>> -- >>> Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au >>> Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com >>> Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 23:50:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Haiku You In-Reply-To: <45CFDBC5.9070005@myuw.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Legman was hardly an amateur, and he didn't write them, he collected them as (largely middleclass) folklore. That was a couple of generations ago. But we all remember what the young maid from Nantucket would do with whatever she found. She probably wasn't very sophisticated either. Me, I don't write limericks. I do, however, strongly recommend the book. Mark At 10:15 PM 2/11/2007, you wrote: >The idea that a limerick must be lewd is a common amateur limerick >writers mistake, similarly, the need for five lines. Both of these >targets are not nearly as important as the necessity of a slow >moving to fast rhyme and the requisite of novelty in the tail of the >poem. Aiming at bawdiness and a rigid adherence to the three stress >three stress two stress two stress three stress structure is the >sign of an unsophisticated limerick writer, and such people cannot >be said to truly be writing limericks. > >Mark Weiss wrote: >>A good one. >>And helps disprove Gershon Legman's contention that limericks are >>supposed to be lewd. Legman, probably the greatest folklorist of >>filth, edited The Limerick, a collection of 1700 examples, with >>scholarly apparatus. It's the locus clasicus, and I think it's >>still available in reprint, but there are a lot of very cheap >>copies available at AbeBooks. Should be on every bookshelf. >>Mark >>At 06:47 PM 2/11/2007, you wrote: >> >>>Somehow this, one of my favourite limericks, seems strangely appropriate: >>> >>>There was a young man of Japan >>>Whose poetry never would scan. >>>When asked why 'twas so >>>He replied, "Yes, I know, >>>But I always try to get as many words in the last line as I possibly can." >>> >>>-- >>>Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au >>>Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com >>>Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 20:55:31 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Haiku You In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20070211234423.05ebbff0@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit oh, i'm sure. I was just (gently, i hope) teasing mr welch about his statements about haiku. I love limericks and i'm looking forward to getting a copy of that book. It looks like there are a number of decent shape hardcovers on ABE. Also, he did a sequel called "More Limericks" it looks like. Do you have an opinion on that one? Mark Weiss wrote: > Legman was hardly an amateur, and he didn't write them, he collected > them as (largely middleclass) folklore. That was a couple of generations > ago. But we all remember what the young maid from Nantucket would do > with whatever she found. She probably wasn't very sophisticated either. > Me, I don't write limericks. I do, however, strongly recommend the book. > > Mark > > > At 10:15 PM 2/11/2007, you wrote: > >> The idea that a limerick must be lewd is a common amateur limerick >> writers mistake, similarly, the need for five lines. Both of these >> targets are not nearly as important as the necessity of a slow moving >> to fast rhyme and the requisite of novelty in the tail of the poem. >> Aiming at bawdiness and a rigid adherence to the three stress three >> stress two stress two stress three stress structure is the sign of an >> unsophisticated limerick writer, and such people cannot be said to >> truly be writing limericks. >> >> Mark Weiss wrote: >> >>> A good one. >>> And helps disprove Gershon Legman's contention that limericks are >>> supposed to be lewd. Legman, probably the greatest folklorist of >>> filth, edited The Limerick, a collection of 1700 examples, with >>> scholarly apparatus. It's the locus clasicus, and I think it's still >>> available in reprint, but there are a lot of very cheap copies >>> available at AbeBooks. Should be on every bookshelf. >>> Mark >>> At 06:47 PM 2/11/2007, you wrote: >>> >>>> Somehow this, one of my favourite limericks, seems strangely >>>> appropriate: >>>> >>>> There was a young man of Japan >>>> Whose poetry never would scan. >>>> When asked why 'twas so >>>> He replied, "Yes, I know, >>>> But I always try to get as many words in the last line as I possibly >>>> can." >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au >>>> Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com >>>> Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 00:27:19 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Dylan Welch Subject: Re: haiku MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't see how Violi's poem is satirical, or how it could ever be meant that way, at least regarding haiku, but perhaps you can enlighten me? The Padgett piece seems too trivial and even juvenile in its stance to achieve meaningful satire. It may seem clever if you're new to "haiku about haiku" like Padgett's, but HUNDREDS of people have dashed off poems like that. Believe me, they were stale the instant the first one was written. And most beginners go through a stage of writing them. Re Dan Coffey's comment: "I agree with Vincent that morphing is necessary, but MDW makes a good point, one that shouldn't have to be made. Know the history of the poem, its implications and subtleties, and THEN subvert it." In response, yes, feel free to subvert all you want, but from a position of knowledge, not ignorance. But also remember that nothing has to be subverted at all. Also, I realize that not everyone is wired to care about haiku, which is fine by me. But I do have a problem with people claiming something as a good haiku when it sometimes isn't a haiku at all. Making such a claim presumes that one has at least a basic understanding of the genre -- and hopefully more knowledge than that. Michael In a message dated 09-Feb-07 9:04:30 PM Pacific Standard Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU writes: Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 19:36:04 -0500 From: Davey Volner Subject: Re: haiku I trust the writer understands that both Violi's haiku and Padgett's are satirical? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 00:34:32 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Dylan Welch Subject: Re: E. E. Cummings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It is common for folks to refer to E. E. Cummings with just lowercase letters. However, have you noticed, in at least the last 20+ years, that Liveright (Cummings' publisher) has not treated his name that way? If you've not noticed, please notice now. Despite the popular perception of his name being lowercased, it is not what he wanted (unlike, say, k.d. lang, who has specifically said she wants her name treated in lowercase letters). The lowercase treatment of his name was a designer's choice, and not one that Cummings himself favoured. Norman Friedman, a friend and leading critic of Cummings, and also longtime president of the E. E. Cummings Society, has written two seminal artic les on this subject. You can find them online if you search for "Cummings capitalization": Not "e. e. cummings" -- _http://www.gvsu.edu/english/cummings/caps.htm_ (http://www.gvsu.edu/english/cummings/caps.htm) Not "e. e. cummings REVISITED" -- _http://www.gvsu.edu/english/cummings/caps2.html_ (http://www.gvsu.edu/english/cummings/caps2.html) In the interests of full disclosure, I'm a contributing editor to Spring: The Journal of the E. E. Cummings Society. Just as haiku is misunderstood in English as a "5-7-5-syllable" poem, so too does the capitalization of Cummings' name suffer from popular misperception. Michael In a message dated 09-Feb-07 9:04:30 PM Pacific Standard Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU writes: Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 15:07:49 -0500 From: Eric Subject: Re: RIP Anna Nicole - The end of an era >>Our making fun of dead people isn't poetics. How about ee cummings making fun of buffalo bill's defunct atony? Maybe it depends on how long the subject is dead? And of course the motives of the fun-maker? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 01:47:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Haiku You In-Reply-To: <45CFF343.5070201@myuw.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Also essential. And there are the three immense volumes of Anatomy of the Dirty Joke. None off them in verse, tho. At 11:55 PM 2/11/2007, you wrote: >oh, i'm sure. I was just (gently, i hope) teasing mr welch about his >statements about haiku. > >I love limericks and i'm looking forward to getting a copy of that >book. It looks like there are a number of decent shape hardcovers on >ABE. Also, he did a sequel called "More Limericks" it looks like. Do >you have an opinion on that one? > >Mark Weiss wrote: >>Legman was hardly an amateur, and he didn't write them, he >>collected them as (largely middleclass) folklore. That was a couple >>of generations ago. But we all remember what the young maid from >>Nantucket would do with whatever she found. She probably wasn't >>very sophisticated either. Me, I don't write limericks. I do, >>however, strongly recommend the book. >>Mark >> >>At 10:15 PM 2/11/2007, you wrote: >> >>>The idea that a limerick must be lewd is a common amateur limerick >>>writers mistake, similarly, the need for five lines. Both of these >>>targets are not nearly as important as the necessity of a slow >>>moving to fast rhyme and the requisite of novelty in the tail of >>>the poem. Aiming at bawdiness and a rigid adherence to the three >>>stress three stress two stress two stress three stress structure >>>is the sign of an unsophisticated limerick writer, and such people >>>cannot be said to truly be writing limericks. >>> >>>Mark Weiss wrote: >>> >>>>A good one. >>>>And helps disprove Gershon Legman's contention that limericks are >>>>supposed to be lewd. Legman, probably the greatest folklorist of >>>>filth, edited The Limerick, a collection of 1700 examples, with >>>>scholarly apparatus. It's the locus clasicus, and I think it's >>>>still available in reprint, but there are a lot of very cheap >>>>copies available at AbeBooks. Should be on every bookshelf. >>>>Mark >>>>At 06:47 PM 2/11/2007, you wrote: >>>> >>>>>Somehow this, one of my favourite limericks, seems strangely appropriate: >>>>> >>>>>There was a young man of Japan >>>>>Whose poetry never would scan. >>>>>When asked why 'twas so >>>>>He replied, "Yes, I know, >>>>>But I always try to get as many words in the last line as I possibly can." >>>>> >>>>>-- >>>>>Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au >>>>>Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com >>>>>Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 01:46:26 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: praise be to the watch MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Praise be to the watch which is not responsible for rationalism or the mechanistic view of being Whereas I agree that Rene Descartes whose watchmechanism theory of animals held animals were automata was a jovian ignoramus who perpetrated a great and lasting evil on the world by furthering the practice of gratuitous murder of other meat-bearing beings of bone, chiton, and slime. But those who have attacked wristwatches as harmful clams, vigil posts of death, totalizing disk engines, pulsing pucks of Beelzebub, were for the most part British and anglophiles, whereas Emerson and Whitman found the watch fascinating and an instrument of sunlight, as did Benjamin Franklin, whereas those who defiled the watch were Dryden, including Laurence Stern, Wycherley, Ben Jonson, Samuels Butler and Beckett and Coleridge, tho the Samuel Pepys was proud of his watch and delighted in it, for it is a thing to delight with, whereas Allens Ginsberg and Edgar Poe were equal American idiots, the latter being addicts and American, Alan Poe having written a racist screed against the Dutch, clocks and cabbage, and tho he deplored the dissection of animals Alexander Pope and yes the fatuous boneheaded Wm Blake, even him, tho i know most of you like him, and his melodramatic and mostly retarded whinging about “infernal cogs” whereas I find no woman who attacked the watch, being sensible, that these aforementioned people mostly are idiots operating completely as imbeciles, essentially scapegoated a mechanism, small at that, masking a complicitous participation in an increasingly rationalized society by dissing a collection of nanosprings and small teeth of brass arrayed on circles, praising, worse, inordinately the word and that betrayal of thought called Reason while forgoing their fundamental nature, which is called lovingkindness, can bite my ass. Also can Allen Ginsberg bite my ass he was an idiot. Whereas Dante put his single horologe into heaven, and had it run there as a great sun horse, and Rabelais’ dislike stemming mostly from the the relation between clocks and monks and increasingly oppressive use of clocks by the religious hierarchy, with which skepticism I forgive and am down with, for tho prayer like work is a group activity, the clock itself I argue stood as a taunting analogous reminder of self-sufficient individuation-—an example of ostensible self-reliance which ironically served, in my personal theory, as an inspiration to that at first okay then supremely retarded anti-rationalist counter-culture called romanticism, which strangely took to defiling the clock itself when it was the clock that stood, in their hippy minds, as a replacement of an hierarch sun Praise to the currently ubiquitous watch, but in 1720 the price of a watch was equivalent to a servant girl’s wage for ten years. Samuel Pepys’, thus, love of watch was consonant with his fondling and raping of his servant girls, including one Deborah Willett, which adultery and rape he recorded first in Latin then in the cocktail of French, Portuguese, Latin, and coded English after his wife read his account of his raping of same and witnessing him w/ his member in Ms Willett Praise be the man who wrote The Barber of Seville and The Marriage of Figaro, Beaumarchais, as he was a brilliant watchmaker Praise be Wm Hogarth an artist who cd paint a portrait in one hour and depicted consistently time pieces, then new, in his renderings, as with the rise of the waistcoat in 1675 men ceased to wear watches by chains on the neck and placed them in pockets, whereas women continued to wear them on chains, in fact it was the discomfort afforded by the weight of the watch suspended on the neck that caused Charles II to devise an expedient sling composed by a light garment for the torso, a “vest,” upon which small internal purses of cloth, which we call pockets, could be hung. Tompion who in his life made 6,000 watches and 500 clocks, was the occasion of much thievery: The personal advertisements of London papers frequently mentioned rewards for stolen Tompion watches Praise be Daniel Defoe, born in the horological revolution, who depicts one Moll Flanders who stole gold watch after gold watch. The best watches now are made of stainless steel, and sometimes Titanium Praise be all those who resisted Descartes who in 1619 reports wishing to construct a mechanical flying pigeon, a dancing dog, and a spaniel chasing a pheasant Praise be the watch, it is the amphitheater of all those who are awaiting the outcome of our present Praise be the many bugs, more complex than watches. That they have an energy that has left us. They have the energy of children. That they are the favorites of God and are but the particles of people with the wills of children. That insects are my little cousins under the uncle of heaven. And I am happy of them Praise that the wristwatch is essentially an astronomical instrument, which fact we among the houses forget. That what is a watch used for, it is used for the mimicking of the turning of the sky as the turning of its hands remembers the turning of the sky, the rolling of the earth before and under the sun Praise be the watch by which to constant remember decay, for rather we would have bolted a dancing fetus to a wall, or something like that Praise be the minute hand which tho the watches were around since the early 16th century as a personal vademecum, the minute hand did not arise on a watch until 1660 Praise to the Northern Hemisphere which gave the watch Praise to Randall Benson who sd “A watch does not respond to force, they are too small to compete with it.” Praise to the 4th chronometer of John Harrison which in 1761 erred no more than 15 seconds in a 5 month journey to the West Indies and back Praise to the British horological revolution of 1660-1770 Praise to John Harrison, he that built the first sea clock, a clock to be taken unto the seas w/out losing even a second a week, incredible, despite buffet by wave, storm, the seamen themselves and sometimes, which did happen, a fish from the window And even tho the Industrial Revolution was precipitated by the British horological revolution, praise to the British horological revolution Praise to the escapement, a device which through repetitive mechanical motion regulates the running down of the motive power Praise to the history of clocks which is to a large extent a history of the improvement of the technologies of escapement Praise to the clock which is not a metaphor for the enslavement of peoples, the enslavement of labor, the abuse of human power, the call of the factory, nor the bell that tolls as death Praise to Ikuo Tokunaga-san designer of the Seiko divers 1974-present who sd “And if your 1000m diver’s watch will be damaged unfortunately in any case, please contact to the SEIKO Service Center of your country as soon as possible. And last of all, I would like to say again The watches are living machines and they wanted to be cared from their lovely owner with heart-full mind every day. Please love your professional 1000m diver’s watch for ever. Thanks again. Sincerely yours, Ikuo Tokunaga” Praise to Richard Leigh, 1695, who wrote of insects, “Like Living Watches, each of these conceals/ A thousand Springs of Life, and moving wheels…” Praise to those in Norway, who are generally Norwegians, that they wear clocks. That they have rain there. That things are busy there. That they are busy with Norway. That there are old incomparable fountain pens there. That all these things are Norway, of Norway, and make Norway. Praise to weakened insects of Norway, who are happy, being fond of snow, which burdens them Praise that wristwatches, like nickels on the sea, are children of the colossal. That they burden no person, mar no time, and are made of the sound of the baskets. That Sunlight in Norway is of strained apricot. That this on my wrist is a celestial theater. That a wristwatch is a small celestial theater. It is a small sky. A device for the measure of shadows Praise be Ikuo Tokunaga-san designer of the Seiko divers 1974-present who sd “All watches are the noble-minded living machines for which human beings have created as the mechanical watches and as quartz watches. In those creatures, there are ‘the culture of the time’ which tells human beings' history, ‘the law of the time’ which keeps social order, ‘mankind's philosophy’ which tells their feelings, ‘the drama of sports’ with sweat and tears, and also ‘the art of the time’ which charms people's mind deeply by the ultimate mechanism. Both mechanical watches and quartz watches have their individuality, and both are alive with you with respectful character in this world. Although determined by the style of your life, and TPO, since my selection basis of watches is summarized in the next table, please make it reference which to be chosen.” Praise be the wristwatch, small celestial theater Praise be the first nanotechnology Praise be the watch, up, and it bring a brave morning Praise be the watch which is not responsible for the death of spiritual time -- __________________________________ http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com ---------------------------------- Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, Illinois 61790 309.438.5284 (office) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 11:11:18 -0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robin Hamilton Subject: Re: praise be to the watch MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good stuff, Gabe. Enjoying it. About a third of the way through, I realised I'd have to print it out and read the rest more carefully. Will do that now. Robin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gabriel Gudding" To: Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 7:46 AM Subject: praise be to the watch > Praise be to the watch which is not responsible for rationalism or the > mechanistic view of being ... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 09:07:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Fwd:Ornette at the Grammies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 So, Orentte Coleman gets a Lifetime Achievement Grammy, and for this he gets to come out on stage and give an award to Carrie Underwood ---- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 09:16:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: New Poetics List Moderator MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline We are pleased to announce that Amy King will be the new moderator for the Poetics List. We are delighted that she has agreed to take on this role. Over the years, the list has adopted different approaches to approving posts and we will continue to keep open all possibilities. For the time being, however, all posts to the list will be sent to the moderator for approval. As a result, there will be a delay from the time posts are sent to when they are posted. Welcome, Amy! Charles Bernstein, Julia Bloch, Lori Emerson, Joel Kuszai, Nick Piombino Poetics List Editorial Board ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 09:22:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Re: Ornette at the Grammies In-Reply-To: <1171289255l.1179672l.0l@psu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I didn't see the Grammies, but I'd say this is a slap in the face to Ornette, considering how much he's contributed. I'm out of the popular culture loop and can't imagine Carrie Underwood's accomplishments comparing to his even remotely. Vernon http://vernonfrazer.com -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of ALDON L NIELSEN Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 9:08 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Fwd:Ornette at the Grammies So, Orentte Coleman gets a Lifetime Achievement Grammy, and for this he gets to come out on stage and give an award to Carrie Underwood ---- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 09:24:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: susan maurer Subject: Re: New Poetics List Moderator In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed good luck amy. hopefully this will result in a decline of some of the truly grotesque hate mail which i for one vote against. susan maurer >From: Poetics List >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: New Poetics List Moderator >Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 09:16:26 -0500 > >We are pleased to announce that Amy King will be the new moderator for >the Poetics List. We are delighted that she has agreed to take on this >role. Over the years, the list has adopted different approaches to >approving posts and we will continue to keep open all possibilities. >For the time being, however, all posts to the list will be sent to the >moderator for approval. As a result, there will be a delay from the >time posts are sent to when they are posted. > >Welcome, Amy! > >Charles Bernstein, Julia Bloch, Lori Emerson, Joel Kuszai, Nick Piombino >Poetics List Editorial Board _________________________________________________________________ Don’t miss your chance to WIN 10 hours of private jet travel from Microsoft Office Live http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0540002499mrt/direct/01/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 09:26:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Waber Subject: ars poetica update Comments: To: announce@logolalia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii The ars poetica project ripples out at: http://www.logolalia.com/arspoetica/ Poems appeared last week by: Riccardo Duranti, Alan Halsey, and Gary Barwin. Poems will appear this week by: Mary Maher, Vernon Frazer, and Sandra Alland. A new poem about poetry every day. Enjoy, Dan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 07:38:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Stempleman Subject: Re: New Poetics List Moderator MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wonderful. Perhaps it's an early indication for good things in '08. > Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 09:24:37 -0500> From: sumaurer@HOTMAIL.COM> Subjec= t: Re: New Poetics List Moderator> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU> > good= luck amy. hopefully this will result in a decline of some of the truly > g= rotesque hate mail which i for one vote against. susan maurer> > > >From: P= oetics List > >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion grou= p > >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU> >Subje= ct: New Poetics List Moderator> >Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 09:16:26 -0500> >> = >We are pleased to announce that Amy King will be the new moderator for> >t= he Poetics List. We are delighted that she has agreed to take on this> >rol= e. Over the years, the list has adopted different approaches to> >approving= posts and we will continue to keep open all possibilities.> >For the time = being, however, all posts to the list will be sent to the> >moderator for a= pproval. As a result, there will be a delay from the> >time posts are sent = to when they are posted.> >> >Welcome, Amy!> >> >Charles Bernstein, Julia B= loch, Lori Emerson, Joel Kuszai, Nick Piombino> >Poetics List Editorial Boa= rd> > _________________________________________________________________> Do= n=92t miss your chance to WIN 10 hours of private jet travel from Microsoft= > Office Live http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0540002499mrt/direct/01/ _________________________________________________________________ Get connected - Use your Hotmail address to sign into Windows Live Messenge= r now.=20 http://get.live.com/messenger/overview= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 09:44:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gerald Schwartz Subject: Re: Fwd:Ornette at the Grammies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, and at the very least a big protest was lodged by Flea of the Red Hot Chile Peppers, spay-painting his battery of stacked amps with ORNETTE COLEMAN WE LOVE YOU... Somebody knows what time it is! Gerald Schwartz > So, Orentte Coleman gets a Lifetime Achievement Grammy, and for this he > gets to > come out on stage and give an award to Carrie Underwood ---- > > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 16:05:44 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew Jones Subject: Re: Ornette at the Grammies In-Reply-To: <1171289255l.1179672l.0l@psu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline guess he wouldn't have shown up if he didn't want to, and besides, it's only the grammys, it's not like it means anything. On 2/12/07, ALDON L NIELSEN wrote: > So, Orentte Coleman gets a Lifetime Achievement Grammy, and for this he gets to > come out on stage and give an award to Carrie Underwood ---- > > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 10:13:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: praise be to the watch Comments: cc: Gabriel Gudding In-Reply-To: <45D01B52.2060800@ilstu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Ah, this is one of the most beautiful pieces I've read in a long time; there's something 17th18th century running through it, those references to Pepys for example though I still prefer Johnson they're still associated in my mind. The incantatory prose itself ticks away, I miss the digital, though there are slight references; the poem is mechanism, the digital might as well not be a watch since it is watched itself, clocked itself, in order that the parts function together. Now we will have asynchronous computers in the future, what will that be light? In regard to moderation, I'm not so positive as the two other members who have written in; poets are an unruly bunch and that seems to be at the heart of remaking language itself. Here we literally have to have Amy's approval, and it's unclear where that stands, what is acceptable to her and what is not. As far as unpleasant posts to a list - there's no reason at all why posts _should_ be pleasant or etiquette-fulfilled, as long as there is no outandout racism, name-calling, what have you. For poets are also a stubborn bunch; it takes courage to write poetry, perhaps the most courage at all, and it's a shame so little of it appears in this forum. (The email list I run with Sandy Baldwin, wryting, is filled with it by the way.) For my recent work, just check the blog or Youtube at times, although the accompanying texts are absent; for example "for valeska gert ruptured mess of the avatars banged into one another maybe they fucked in any case whatever skin they had disappeared in any case the lens blew out with all the action in any case i'm exhausted from their screaming why not mash them mosh them why not mash us mosh us in any case by this time it's all debris by this time i'm under the cabinet by this time doctor leopold konninger returns with horn-rimmed dark glasses in any case he says if you can't dance to it anita berber you might as well explode valeska gert http://www.asondheim.org/ruptured.mp4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R54HTJUfeiM http://www.asondheim.org/bubbled.mp4 when history becomes histrionic naked dance parades on the silver screen oh they look so good light shining through the bones" -- Valeska Gert was a Jewish dancer of the grotesque during the Weimar years. -- Gabe and Amy, good luck! ======================================================================= Work on YouTube, blog at http://nikuko.blogspot.com . Tel 718-813-3285. Webpage directory http://www.asondheim.org . Email: sondheim@panix.com. http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim for theory; also check WVU Zwiki, Google for recent. Write for info on books, cds, performance, dvds, etc. ============================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 08:21:15 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: charles alexander Subject: CODEX symposium Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed It would be great to see any Bay Area poets, or poets visiting there, at the CODEX symposium and book fair at UC-Berkeley Feb. 13-15. Chax Press will be displaying books there. The public "book fair" is Feb. 14 & 15. For more information, . . . http://www.codexfoundation.org/bookfair/index.html We'll be displaying a new fine art edition of the poem WITNESS by Kathleen Fraser. The book is also by Nancy Tokar Miller, who made eleven original (and stunning!) works of art for the book. But we'll also have handmade books we've done over the last bunch of years, and a smattering of trade paperback books of poetry. Check out our web site for recent titles . . . http://chax.org I hope to see some friends in Berkeley! Charles charles alexander / chax press fold the book inside the book keep it open always read from the inside out speak then ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 07:26:31 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Baraban Subject: lim In-Reply-To: <45CFF343.5070201@myuw.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hai-cuckoos, suppressed "vagina", Celebrities lurid but minor-- Had I brilliance to say, I'd rush to the fray: For now, butting out would be kinder. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Finding fabulous fares is fun. Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 10:29:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Kelleher Subject: Literary Buffalo E-Newsletter 2.12.07 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable LITERARY BUFFALO 2.12.07-2.18.07 LITERARY BUFFALO IN THE NEWS: Michael Kelleher interviews poet Michael Gizzi in Artvoice: http://www.artvoice.com READINGS THIS WEEK 2.14 Just Buffalo Open Reading Featured: Ken Feltges Wednesday, February 14, 7 p.m. Carnegie Art Center 240 Goundry St., North Tonawanda 10 open slots: all readers welcome=21 & Earth's Daughters Collective's Gray Hair Reading Series Norma Kassirer and Dennis Maloney Poetry and Fiction Reading Wednesday, February 14, 7:30 p.m. Hallwalls Cinema at The Church, 341 Delaware (at Tupper) Dennis Maloney is a poet, translator, and landscape architect. His own poet= ry includes the book The Map Is Not The Territory, and his translations inc= lude The House in the Sand by Pablo Neruda and The Landscape of Castile by = Antonio Machado. He is currently working on translations of works of Juan R= amon Jimenez and Yosano Akiko. Dennis is also the founding editor/publisher= of the highly respected White Pine Press. Norma Kassirer's first book was Magic Elizabeth, the enduring novel for chi= ldren first published in hard cover by Viking Press in 1966. Several paperb= ack editions by major publishers-Scholastic, Knopf-Random House, and most r= ecently Harper-Collins (1999)-have kept the book continuously in print. The= book is included in The New York Times Parent's Guide to the Best Books fo= r Children. A second novel for children, The Doll Snatchers, was also publi= shed by Viking (1969). Short stories and articles for adults have appeared = in a variety of magazines. The Hidden Wife, a collection of some of her sto= ries, was published by Shuffaloff Press in 1991. Her poetry is written for = adults. 2.15 Just Buffalo/Small Press Poetry Series Michael Gizzi and Michael Basinski Poetry Reading Thursday, February 15, 7 p.m. Rust Belt Books, 202 Allen St., Buffalo Michael Gizzi worked for more than a decade as a licensed arborist in South= ern New England. He is presently a visiting lecturer at Brown University an= d the curator of the Downcity Poetry Series in Providence, Rhode Island. Gi= zzi is the author of more than 10 books of poetry, including: My Terza Rima= (The Figures, 2001); Cured in the Going Bebop (Paradigm Press, 1999); and = No Both (The Figures/Hard Press 1997). Throughout the 1990's he edited ling= o magazine and Hard Press. HE has collaborrated on a number of projects wit= h Clark Coolidge, including a recording, in it's entirety, of Jack Kerouac'= s Old Angel Midnight. Michael Basinski is The Curator of The Poetry Collection State University o= f New York at Buffalo. He performs his work as a solo poet and in ensemble= with the EBMA and his own group, BuffFluxus. Most recently, he released hi= s first CD Fungenii. Among his many books of poetry are Heka (Factory Schoo= l); Strange Things Begin to Happen When a Meteor Crashes in the Arizona Des= ert (Burning Press); The Idyllic Book (Michel Letko, Houston, Texas); Mool,= Mool3Ghosts and Shards of Shampoo (Bob Cobbing's Writers Forum); Cnyttan a= nd Heebie-Jeebies (Meow Press); By and The Doors (House Press); Un Nome, Re= d Rain Two, Abzu and Flight to the Moon (Run Away Spoon Press): Poemeserss = (Structum Press) and many more. 2.16 Just Buffalo Interdisciplinary Event Arabian Nights/Middle Eastern Poetry and Dance_ Friday March 16th 7 p.m. Unitarian Universalist Church 695 Elmwood Ave., Buffalo (corner of Ferry)_ =244 adults/=243 students & seniors/=242 Just Buffalo members__ Arabian Nights features romantic poetry and songs by Lonnie B. Harrell, wit= h Middle Eastern dance performed by Cathy Skora/Folkloric Dance Company. Th= row aside your inhibitions and learn =22the dance of the seven veils.=22 Co= mplete the evening with a sampling of Middle Eastern snacks. Cathy Skora ha= s been studying teaching & performing dance for over fifteen years, and is = founder and executive director of Folkloric Productions Dance Co., Inc. Her= dance studies have included Modern (Graham-Based) and African (Dunham-Base= d), with the Gemini Dance Company, under the direction of Steve Porter. As = a member of Gemini, Cathy traveled to Europe for several summers as part of= an international folk festival. Her area of special study are dances of th= e Middle East and North Africa. Cathy has traveled throughout Egypt, Morocc= o, Turkey, and Greece, exploring dance and culture. 2.18 Just Buffalo Open Reading Featured: Liz Mariani Sunday, February 18, 7 p.m. Rust Belt Books, 202 Allen St., Buffalo 10 open slots: all readers welcome=21 RECURRING LITERARY EVENTS JUST BUFFALO WRITER'S CRITIQUE GROUP Members of Just Buffalo are welcome to attend a free, bi-monthly writer cri= tique group in CEPA's Flux Gallery on the first floor of the historic Marke= t Arcade Building across the street from Shea's. Group meets 1st and 3rd We= dnesday at 7 p.m. Call Just Buffalo for details. JUST BUFFALO TIMED WRITING GROUP A writing practice group meets every FRIDAY at noon at Starbucks Coffee on = Elmwood and Chippewa. Writing practice is based on Natalie Goldberg's sugge= sted exercises in Writing Down The Bones. Writers in all genres, fiction an= d non-fiction welcome. There is no charge. Contact Trudy for info: Trudett= a=40aol.com. WESTERN NEW YORK ROMANCE WRITERS group meets the third Wednesday of every m= onth at St. Joseph Hospital community room at 11a.m. Address: 2605 Harlem R= oad, Cheektowaga, NY 14225. For details go to www.wnyrw.org. JUST BUFFALO MEMBERSHIP RAFFLE Visit the literary city of your dreams: -Joyce's Dublin -Paris' Left Bank -Dante's Florence -Shakespeare's London -Harlem Renaissance NYC -The Beats' San Francisco -Anywhere Continental flies.* Now through May 10, 2007 your membership support of Just Buffalo Literary C= enter includes the chance to win the literary trip of a lifetime: Package (valued at =245,000) includes: -Two round-trip tickets to one of the great literary cities on Continental = Airlines -=241500 towards hotel and accommodations -=24500 in spending money One ticket (=2435) =3D Just Buffalo Individual Membership Two tickets (=2460) =3D Just Buffalo Family Membership Three tickets (=24100) =3D Just Buffalo Friend Membership Purchase as many memberships as you like. Give them to whomever you choose = as a gift (or give someone else the membership and keep the lottery ticket = to yourself=21). Only 1000 chances will be sold. Raffle tickets with Just B= uffalo membership make great gifts=21 Drawing will be held the second week = of May, 2007. Call 716.832.5400 for more info. * Raffle ticket purchases are not tax-deductible. If you want your membersh= ip to put you in the =22literary trip of a lifetime=22 raffle, please write= =22raffle membership=22 in the =22payment for=22 cell on the Paypal form. = You will automatically be entered in the raffle, but your membership will n= ot be tax-deductible. If you prefer not to be in the raffle and want tax-de= ductible status, then please write =22non-raffle member=22 in the =22paymen= t for=22 cell. JOIN JUST BUFFALO ONLINE=21=21=21 If you would like to join Just Buffalo, or simply make a massive personal d= onation, you can do so online using your credit card. We have recently add= ed the ability to join online by paying with a credit card through PayPal. = Simply click on the membership level at which you would like to join, log = in (or create a PayPal account using your Visa/Amex/Mastercard/Discover), a= nd voil=E1, you will find yourself in literary heaven. For more info, or t= o join now, go to our website: http://www.justbuffalo.org/membership/index.shtml UNSUBSCRIBE If you would like to unsubscribe from this list, just say so and you will b= e immediately removed. _______________________________ Michael Kelleher Artistic Director Just Buffalo Literary Center Market Arcade 617 Main St., Ste. 202A Buffalo, NY 14203 716.832.5400 716.270.0184 (fax) www.justbuffalo.org mjk=40justbuffalo.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 16:13:27 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: Ornette at the Grammies In-Reply-To: <20070212142243.WNPH157.ibm60aec.bellsouth.net@HPLASERJ> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Who is Carrie Underwood? Was he giving the award to her or she to him? If the former, isn't it right that the senior person give the award to the lesser figure? Like if I was getting an award for poetry, it would mean a lot if was being given me by John Ashbery, whereas it would be merely presumptuous if I were to give one to him. Vernon Frazer wrote: I didn't see the Grammies, but I'd say this is a slap in the face to Ornette, considering how much he's contributed. I'm out of the popular culture loop and can't imagine Carrie Underwood's accomplishments comparing to his even remotely. Vernon http://vernonfrazer.com -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of ALDON L NIELSEN Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 9:08 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Fwd:Ornette at the Grammies So, Orentte Coleman gets a Lifetime Achievement Grammy, and for this he gets to come out on stage and give an award to Carrie Underwood ---- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 08:14:37 -0800 Reply-To: ishaq1824@shaw.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ishaq arashi Organization: planatation13 Subject: lost works do what you like and other works MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit peace, i am writing in reference to a short writ entitled "do what you like" a story about the killing of a girl in my town set the music of blind faith. i was wonder is you still have a copy of the story since i was the subject a hate crime which presented itself in the form of a break in into my flat and my computer, which contained my writing, was stolen along with my prayer mat. i am currently attempting to retrieve some of my lost writings you assistance would be much appreciated kh sincerely l y braithwaite http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Ytzhak_Braithwaite http://www.sidebrow.net/2006/a047braithwaite.php ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 10:24:15 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: Re: praise to the watch MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks, Robin. That stuff quoting Ikuo Tokunaga (Tokunaga-san, as he's affectionately known) is from the Seiko Citizens Watch Forum (http://www.network54.com/Forum/78440/). This is just a beginning, written over the last two days. I want to explore the history of the watch and wristwatch in relation to first gender and then colonialism. It's a huge field, almost untouched. Looking at the paintings of Wm Hogarth - was just struck by how many are of women and watches/clocks. The watch and women have this buried history that goes weirdly back to people like Pepys and Tompion. I'm not sure yet what to make of it. Gabe < Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <[log in to unmask]> From: Robin Hamilton <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: praise be to the watch Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=response Good stuff, Gabe. Enjoying it. About a third of the way through, I realised I'd have to print it out and read the rest more carefully. Will do that now. Robin -- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 12:36:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ken Rumble Subject: Nathaniel Tarn & Janet Rodney, This Saturday, Feb. 17th, 8pm, Internationalist Books, Chapel Hill MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Please spread far and wide.... Who: Nathaniel Tarn: poet, translator, anthropologist, and editor; author of thirty volumes of poetry, and numerous translations (including acclaimed versions of Pablo Neruda, Victor Segalen, and others); /Selected Poems 1950-2000/ published in 2002 by Wesleyan University Press; selected essays in poetics and anthropology /Views from the Weaving Mountain/ published in 1991 by University of New Mexico Press; specialist in Highland Maya studies and the sociology of Buddhist institutions; one of Marcel Duchamp's chess partners. Who: Janet Rodney: digital artist, poet, and letterpress printer; author of four books of poetry, including /Orphydice/, /Atitlan / Alashka/, and the meditative memoir /The Book of Craving/; fifteen year resident of Spain while a journalist, editor, translator, and interpreter. What: Desert City Poetry Series, you thought it would never happen. When: This Saturday, February 17th, 8pm, 2007, the year formerly known as "next year." Where: Internationalist Books, 405 W. Franklin Street, Chapel Hill, North Carolina, same place, fresh air. How much: $2 donation which will contribute to the hospital bills of Philadelphia poet Frank Sherlock. Why: "Rite of return / elegant orange "bird" / shines on my memory / flying the sun from west to east" "you are right, / at this time the mind / is a mirror to the sun / the heart a coal / bright in, the wind, / nothing / is mine / but the ride" See you there.... Nathaniel Tarn: http://jacketmagazine.com/06/index.shtml Janet Rodney: http://www.thing.net/~grist/l&d/ljrdny1.htm "Ancestors" by Nathaniel Tarn "At the exact site of the Lituanica's tragedy, in the forest of Soldin, Germany, the Aero Club of Lithuania rented for ninety nine years a . . . circle-shaped area and erected a monument. (The inscription:) "Here died as heroes the Transatlantic Flyers Darius & Girenas " (July 15, 1933) . . . After World War II, that part of Germany was annexed to Poland and Lithuania was occupied by the Soviets." Small provincial town in "my" fathers' land at creation's edge - border post deserted, a line of lindens, opposite post deserted, no crossings anymore as there once were between old world and new. "God's Playground" here as they used to call it: what does He play with what is the message of a life, what is the information, what can the play mean from bit to life, and back? Other end of town: small sunlit graveyard field edged with small jungles: hazels, apples, roses, ferns, nettles, mushrooms, herbs - loud with warblers, storks overhead birds of my secret childhood. Rite of return elegant orange "bird" shines on my memory flying the sun from west to east back to its homeland, the two boys clean pure-blooded heroes - narrative simple a nation's testament torn out of anonymity the double fit thanks X and gentle Y. When was "our" departure: before the warning signs were clearly witnessed or very near the terminus of possibility - by which way forward under the lindens was it to left, was it to right they went from east to west and to what purpose to what end in "me"? Scrabble to read the graves four hours the heat increasing. Small stone book-shape - third the way down from top - grips one pointed gravestone (like a clown's hat) perhaps a sign of "us" whose trade was bookbinding. When not finding's no matter - this is community - "my" people sunk into "our" people floating here their stones on the grass sea. So that it does not matter if name sings here or not: what is a name inside oblivion? Not enough money to buy the right equipment homed into heroism: arrival no arrival a crash short of the goal in a "great neighbor" country, the whole scene under glass shrine in its own museum when it had been subtracted out from the swastikas. Crowd size at funeral never yet seen in all of history. Behind the pointed grave, thick trees spread darkness, huge long-house trench: a thousand hidden there - but not by natural demise - shot in the neck: it will take lifetimes to read those dead. Came to the sky these luftmenschen too early against the grain of their determinations. Now I'm at table: Gorge at my life deep sun! Take down the charming pilots and too "my" ancestors! In the town, "they" who are always present holding a festival of later generations. Midway between creations all ate and drank the same heard the same blood beat of excremental music - we paid them no attention. How many of "their" fathers might have helped to fill that field? "Their" flyers: nothing as infiltrated as "our" sallow legions storm troopers in their time would soon dispose of. How could a record flight else among so many bring home the corpses embalmed, later, hidden for years from various oppressors until again, an independence. While it is on record (those who don't sleep or dream) that in a neighbor town "they" stood on rooftops many smiling to watch the shooting circus. from /Crystals/ by Janet Rodney I. The time of which I write is a memory of getting back to Mother Earth, mouth pressed to hers, desire's irresistible curl of lips when love for Father Water is strongest I look for his eye and hear a hellish laughter as from outside up from the ocean. II. Long after all horizons have proved themselves mortal I see my rider shadow galloping along the beach, it is August, lead-bellied gulls rise toward the Rock where Atlantic currents and Mediterranean mix wild roses corrupting on its face, you are right, at this time the mind is a mirror to the sun the heart a coal bright in, the wind, nothing is mine but the ride before the sequence vanishes like lead drawn down thru deep water. XV. The Androgynous Principle (A) In a small dream in a small room in a small town in New Jersey I am on the make, a huntress stepping out of fathomless woods her small breasts are smooth as riverstones her own phallus, a knife hung around her neck instrument of delight. The prey this evening is elusive: she would like to be worthy of her victim who doesn't appear to cruise these parts this hour would like to give her body to the victim of her choice precisely when he, the hunted, steps out of her moves in, penetrating, manly, fucking in blindness bringing them news of light. XVI. The Androgynous Principle (B) Each day the sun rises inside her eye looking for new fields, at night drops like a coin into water, she is blown back by darkness, her coat of shells catching a light from below where he is hidden, shining in water he waits while she dangles her clothes on a tree, descends to the edge, water rising slowly up her body between her thighs he drinks her. XVII. Here we are and all we see is more than ourselves, the failing leaves and flowerheads float on the canal like scales of carp downriver here we are and more, wind driving thru the cracks of our windows bringing on the cold we know from our skin (and over hard ground walk the circuit of each other) that winter has made it our way again ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 12:54:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Waber Subject: first adventures of col and sem Comments: To: announce@logolalia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable kite tail press is pleased to announce the release of: first adventures of col and sem, by Dan Waber http://www.logolalia.com/kitetailpress/ Lyric narrative punctuation poetry, what else can be said? Well, here's what others are saying: <[brick]> it's sort of a love story between the colon and the semicolon ahh, those two have had a thing going for centuries <[brick]> she's totally hot in palatino linotype oh i know "i like the way this is simple but symbolically charged. romantic but smart. concrete but abstract."--Jim Andrews "Brill!"--Mair=E9ad Byrne "Loved it. [...] so romantic!"--K.S. Ernst "Love poems like no one has ever seen."--Michael Harold "...bits of punctuation set free to mean, to make, to be."--Geof Huth "o this is way beyond punctuation poetry."--Karl Kempton "It=B9s cheeky."--Chris Mansell "...a display of what can only be called heorically wordless subminimality in the sense of utter alphabetical absence..."--Irving Weiss For information on how to purchase a copy, please send an email to your favorite word, whatever that may be, at logolalia dot com. Regards, Dan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 13:01:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: Re: Ornette at the Grammies In-Reply-To: <001a01c74eb4$55877910$8a70a918@yourae066c3a9b> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Ornette actually got more facetime than the other lifetime achievement grammy award winners--among them The Doors, The Grateful Dead, and Booker T. & The MG's--who after each of them were talked about for a few seconds from the stage had a camera focused upon them in the audience. This is the way it's been for the past few years at the grammy awards with these awards. As for Flea, he began playing the trumpet at age nine and grew up the step-son of jazz musician Walter Urban, Jr., and wanted to be a jazz musician like him. I think he was just honoring Ornette, perceived grammys slight be damned. Best, david On 2/12/07 9:44 AM, "Gerald Schwartz" wrote: > Yes, and at the very least a big > protest was lodged by Flea of the > Red Hot Chile Peppers, spay-painting > his battery of stacked amps with > ORNETTE COLEMAN WE LOVE YOU... > > Somebody knows what time it is! > > Gerald Schwartz > >> So, Orentte Coleman gets a Lifetime Achievement Grammy, and for this he >> gets to >> come out on stage and give an award to Carrie Underwood ---- >> >> >> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 10:14:31 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Invalid RFC822 field - "Say". Rest of header flushed. From: Matt Henriksen Subject: 2/16 Kostas Anagnopoulos & Elisa Gabbert Carroll Gardens Brooklyn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fool, why don’t you get down w= The Burning Chair Readings=0ASay =0A=0A Fool, why don=92t you get down w= ith your bad self?=0A=0A and the linguistic boogie of=0A=0A=0A Kostas A= nagnopoulos & Elisa Gabbert =0A=0AFriday, February 16th, 7:30 PM=0A=0A = The Fall Caf=E9=0A=0A 307 Smith Street=0A=0A Between Union & President=0A= =0A Carroll Gardens, Brooklyn=0A=0A F or G to Carroll Street=0A=0A FREE= =0A=0A =0A=0A Kostas Anagnopoulos was born and raised in Chicago. He is= the editor and co-founder of Insurance Magazine and Insurance Editions. In= 2003 he published his chapbook, Daydream. This spring Ugly Duckling Presse= will publish his long poem, Irritant. He lives in Jackson Heights, Queens,= and he works as a salesman.=0A=0A =0A=0A Elisa Gabbert holds degrees fr= om Rice University and Emerson College. She is a reader for Ploughshares an= d an editor of Absent. Recent work appears or will appear in journals inclu= ding Pleiades, LIT, No Tell Motel, Kulture Vulture, RealPoetik, H_NGM_N, an= d Redivider, as well as the forthcoming anthologies The Bedside Guide to No= Tell Motel =96 Second Floor and Outside Voices 2008 Anthology of Younger P= oets. This week Kitchen Press released her chapbook, Thanks for Sending th= e Engine.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A =0A______________________________________= ______________________________________________=0ANever miss an email again!= =0AYahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives.=0Ahttp://tools.s= earch.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 13:53:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: heidi arnold Subject: Re: New Poetics List Moderator In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline "good luck amy. hopefully this will result in a decline of some of the truly grotesque hate mail which i for one vote against. susan maurer" -- yeah -- i agree -- from thich nhat hanh: -- one day a monk came to tue trung, the most illustrious teacher of Buddhism in Vietnam in the thirteenth century, a time when Buddhism was flourishing in Vietnam. the monk asked him, "what is the pure, immaculate Dharmakaya?" and Tue Trung pointed to the excrement of a horse. This was an irreverent approach to Dharmakaya, because people were using the word immaculate to describe it. you cannot use words to describe the Dharmakaya. Even though we say it is immaculate, pure, that does not mean it is separate from things that are impure. reality, ultimate reality, free from all adjectives, either pure or impure. so his response was to shake up the mind of the monk, for him to cleanse himself of all these adjectives in order to see into the nature of the dharmakaya... - heidi On 2/12/07, susan maurer < sumaurer@hotmail.com> wrote: > > good luck amy. hopefully this will result in a decline of some of the > truly > grotesque hate mail which i for one vote against. susan maurer > > > >From: Poetics List < poetics.list@GMAIL.COM > > >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group > >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >Subject: New Poetics List Moderator > >Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 09:16:26 -0500 > > > >We are pleased to announce that Amy King will be the new moderator for > >the Poetics List. We are delighted that she has agreed to take on this > >role. Over the years, the list has adopted different approaches to > >approving posts and we will continue to keep open all possibilities. > >For the time being, however, all posts to the list will be sent to the > >moderator for approval. As a result, there will be a delay from the > >time posts are sent to when they are posted. > > > >Welcome, Amy! > > > >Charles Bernstein, Julia Bloch, Lori Emerson, Joel Kuszai, Nick Piombino > >Poetics List Editorial Board > > _________________________________________________________________ > Don't miss your chance to WIN 10 hours of private jet travel from > Microsoft > Office Live http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0540002499mrt/direct/01/ > -- www.heidiarnold.org http://peaceraptor.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 13:05:34 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: Re: Ornette at the Grammies In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I've never forgotten Ornette on the phone saying artists don't need to go to art schools--they need to go to business schools-- it's not called the Entertinment INDUSTRY because it's about "art" and "artists" you know--it's strictly business-- so of course Ornette wd show up and get his Grammy--it's good for HIS business, too are Jazz musicians supposed to always be neglected, poor and "pure" from money and awards other musicians are given? for the sake of their fans--? this is about business, not art-- an artist knows they are an artist, a great one, wihout needing to be told or awarded-- but the award and publicity and cash it brings--that they do need--to live--for themselves, their family, their work-- >From: Andrew Jones >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: Ornette at the Grammies >Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 16:05:44 +0100 > >guess he wouldn't have shown up if he didn't want to, and besides, >it's only the grammys, it's not like it means anything. > >On 2/12/07, ALDON L NIELSEN wrote: >>So, Orentte Coleman gets a Lifetime Achievement Grammy, and for this he >>gets to >>come out on stage and give an award to Carrie Underwood ---- >> >> >><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> _________________________________________________________________ Turn searches into helpful donations. Make your search count. http://click4thecause.live.com/search/charity/default.aspx?source=hmemtagline_donation&FORM=WLMTAG ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 14:28:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian Clements Subject: Teaching Position Announcement--Western Connecticut State University In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" This newly announced position is advertised for the English Dept., but WestConn is in the process of establishing a Dept. of Writing and Linguistics effective Fall '07. We expect final approval shortly, and this position would go with the new department. Even though we expect approval of the new department, applications should be addressed to the English Dept. Candidates who meet the requirements below and who have additional experience as professional writers (outside academia) will be especially attractive. Cordially, bc School of Arts & Sciences English Department Western Connecticut State University's English Department seeks a tenure-track, Assistant Professor beginning in August, 2007. The English Department offers undergraduate majors in Literature and Professional Writing, as well as combined majors in American Studies and Elementary & Secondary Education. The Department's graduate program includes Master of Arts, Master of Fine Arts, and Master of Science degrees with options in literature studies, teaching English as a second language, and writing. The Department also offers four minors and a variety of writing intensive and introductory literature courses for credit in General Education. Assistant Professor Coordinator of First-Year Composition The tenure-track Assistant Professor will serve as the Coordinator of First-Year Composition. A Ph.D. or terminal degree in Composition/Rhetoric or closely related field is required. Candidates with specializations in composition studies, professional writing, or linguistics are welcomed; however, the successful candidate will have primary interest in first-year writing pedagogy. Must be willing to teach courses at both graduate and undergraduate levels and direct the department's writing lab. Must have experience with teaching ethnically and linguistically diverse populations. Experience with writing across the curriculum, instructional technology, assessment, and directing a writing lab is desirable. Application Process: Send cover letter, CV, graduate transcripts, and three letters of recommendation, along with a fifteen page writing sample to facultyvita@wcsu.edu. Reference Search # 500-117 in the Subject line. Screening of applications will begin February 21, 2007 and continue until the position is filled. Salary & Benefits: WCSU offers competitive salaries commensurate with candidate's experience and a comprehensive benefit package. Dr. Brian Clements, Coordinator MFA in Professional Writing 203-837-8876 _____ Dept. of English Language, Comparative Literature, and Writing Western Connecticut State University 181 White St. Danbury, CT 06810 _____ http://www.wcsu.edu/english/mfa ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 11:34:22 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Ornette at the Grammies In-Reply-To: <1171289255l.1179672l.0l@psu.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit You should tell us who Carrie Underwood is. gb On 12-Feb-07, at 6:07 AM, ALDON L NIELSEN wrote: > So, Orentte Coleman gets a Lifetime Achievement Grammy, and for this > he gets to > come out on stage and give an award to Carrie Underwood ---- > > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > > George Cletis Bowering Slow to anger. Well, slow about everything. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 14:32:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: praise be to the watch In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Gabriel, I second. Alan. Your piece ticks away. Murat On 2/12/07, Alan Sondheim wrote: > > Ah, this is one of the most beautiful pieces I've read in a long time; > there's something 17th18th century running through it, those references > to Pepys for example though I still prefer Johnson they're still > associated in my mind. The incantatory prose itself ticks away, I miss the > digital, though there are slight references; the poem is mechanism, the > digital might as well not be a watch since it is watched itself, clocked > itself, in order that the parts function together. Now we will have > asynchronous computers in the future, what will that be light? > > In regard to moderation, I'm not so positive as the two other members who > have written in; poets are an unruly bunch and that seems to be at the > heart of remaking language itself. Here we literally have to have Amy's > approval, and it's unclear where that stands, what is acceptable to her > and what is not. As far as unpleasant posts to a list - there's no reason > at all why posts _should_ be pleasant or etiquette-fulfilled, as long as > there is no outandout racism, name-calling, what have you. For poets are > also a stubborn bunch; it takes courage to write poetry, perhaps the most > courage at all, and it's a shame so little of it appears in this forum. > (The email list I run with Sandy Baldwin, wryting, is filled with it by > the way.) > > For my recent work, just check the blog or Youtube at times, although the > accompanying texts are absent; for example > > "for valeska gert > > ruptured mess of the avatars banged into one another maybe they fucked in > any case whatever skin they had disappeared in any case the lens blew out > with all the action in any case i'm exhausted from their screaming why not > mash them mosh them why not mash us mosh us in any case by this time it's > all debris by this time i'm under the cabinet by this time doctor leopold > konninger returns with horn-rimmed dark glasses in any case he says if you > can't dance to it anita berber you might as well explode valeska gert > > http://www.asondheim.org/ruptured.mp4 > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R54HTJUfeiM > http://www.asondheim.org/bubbled.mp4 > > when history becomes histrionic naked dance parades on the silver screen > oh they look so good light shining through the bones" > > -- Valeska Gert was a Jewish dancer of the grotesque during the Weimar > years. > > -- Gabe and Amy, good luck! > > ======================================================================= > Work on YouTube, blog at http://nikuko.blogspot.com . Tel 718-813-3285. > Webpage directory http://www.asondheim.org . Email: sondheim@panix.com. > http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim for theory; also check > WVU Zwiki, Google for recent. Write for info on books, cds, performance, > dvds, etc. ============================================================= > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 14:57:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Re: The Hoohah Dialogues MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just spoke with staff at the Atlantic Beach Experimental Theater in Atlantic Beach, FL. It turns out they're not involved in the title fiasco, but they told me that the theater showing The Vagina Monologues has resumed using that title instead of The Hoohah Dialogues. In South Florida, I don't think The Vagina Monologues would pose a problem, but I'm told northern Florida is much more conservative. So, I guess the general discussion of hoohahs can continue under a name less offensive to any hoohah-haters on the List. Vernon http://vernonfrazer.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 15:09:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Re: Ornette at the Grammies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 All that granted -- and of course I know he got a lot more attention at the part of the ceremonies that was not televised -- Still, I think it good to take note of such things, to make whatever small noise there is to be made -- That, after all, is how the grammies eventually moved out of the "let's give all the awards to Mitch Miler" mode of the past and finally began to acknowledge the existence of more interesting music -- I'm under no illusions -- the jazz awards often go to the most middle of the road performers, as with poetry awards -- in some years, viewers could be excused for thinking Herbie Hancock, Chick Corea and Arturo Sandoval were members of, say, Jewel's backup band -- and let's not even get started on what they do to classical music -- and it was great to see Ornette (and that suit!) at all -- but it was a lifetime of people complaining about such things that brought the academy to give him a lifetime achievement award -- so, I still say complaining is a good thing - and bless Flea for wearing his heart on his grille cloth -- On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 13:05:34 -0600 UB Poetics discussion group wrote: I've never forgotten Ornette on the phone saying artists don't need to go to art schools--they need to go to business schools-- it's not called the Entertinment INDUSTRY because it's about "art" and "artists" you know--it's strictly business-- so of course Ornette wd show up and get his Grammy--it's good for HIS business, too are Jazz musicians supposed to always be neglected, poor and "pure" from money and awards other musicians are given? for the sake of their fans--? this is about business, not art-- an artist knows they are an artist, a great one, wihout needing to be told or awarded-- but the award and publicity and cash it brings--that they do need--to live--for themselves, their family, their work-- >From: Andrew Jones >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: https://webmail.psu.edu/webmail/main.cgi# >Subject: Re: Ornette at the Grammies >Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 16:05:44 +0100 > >guess he wouldn't have shown up if he didn't want to, and besides, >it's only the grammys, it's not like it means anything. > >On 2/12/07, ALDON L NIELSEN wrote: >>So, Orentte Coleman gets a Lifetime Achievement Grammy, and for this he >>gets to >>come out on stage and give an award to Carrie Underwood ---- >> >> >><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> _________________________________________________________________ Turn searches into helpful donations. Make your search count. http://click4thecause.live.com/search/charity/default.aspx?source=hmemtagline_donation&FORM=WLMTAG <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We are enslaved by what makes us free -- intolerable paradox at the heart of speech. --Robert Kelly Sailing the blogosphere at: http://heatstrings.blogspot.com/ Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 12:10:07 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Weishaus Subject: "The Way North" North-2 Text-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable North-2 Text-1: (Sixth page of 35 planned) http://web.pdx.edu/~pdx00282/North/North-2/text-1.htm Introduction: http://web.pdx.edu/~pdx00282/North/Intro.htm These pages are cursor friendly. Speakers on. -Joel __________________________________ Joel Weishaus Research Faculty Department of English Portland State University Portland, Oregon http://web.pdx.edu/~pdx00282 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 14:22:11 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Crockett Subject: Re: praise to the watch In-Reply-To: <45D094AF.3040306@ilstu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit During my "six month initiation" to ______________, I became obsessed by my digital wristwatch. It seemed always to catch my eye at "crazy ones", "crazy twos", etc. (terms I made up much later playing space-deck home run derby) So, I put it in the street, hoping some car would smash it. But after re-situating it a couple times, I began to feel dumb, so I put it back in my pocket. I think it wound up as charity for the mission shelter in El Paso, Texas, along with my favorite shirt ever. Gabriel Gudding wrote: > Thanks, Robin. That stuff quoting Ikuo Tokunaga (Tokunaga-san, as he's > affectionately known) is from the Seiko Citizens Watch Forum > (http://www.network54.com/Forum/78440/). > > This is just a beginning, written over the last two days. I want to > explore the history of the watch and wristwatch in relation to first > gender and then colonialism. It's a huge field, almost untouched. > > Looking at the paintings of Wm Hogarth - was just struck by how many > are of women and watches/clocks. The watch and women have this buried > history that goes weirdly back to people like Pepys and Tompion. I'm > not sure yet what to make of it. Gabe > > < Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group <[log in to unmask]> > Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <[log in to unmask]> > From: Robin Hamilton <[log in to unmask]> > Subject: Re: praise be to the watch > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; > reply-type=response > > Good stuff, Gabe. Enjoying it. About a third of the way through, I > realised I'd have to print it out and read the rest more carefully. > Will do that now. Robin ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 12:33:20 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: eleni Stecopoulos Subject: Re: Jed Rasula's Poetics of Embodiment Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed To the person looking for this: it's his dissertation, from UC Santa Cruz. Should be available from UMI. _________________________________________________________________ Don’t miss your chance to WIN 10 hours of private jet travel from Microsoft Office Live http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0540002499mrt/direct/01/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 15:50:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: Poetics List Welcome Message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Please note changes to the Welcome Message: The Poetics List Sponsored by: The Electronic Poetry Center (SUNY-Buffalo/University of Pennsylvania) and the Regan Chair (Department of English, Penn) & Center for Program in Contemporary Writing (Penn) Poetics List Editor: Amy King Poetics List Editorial Board: Charles Bernstein, Julia Bloch, Lori Emerson, Amy King, Joel Kuszai, Nick Piombino Note: this Welcome message is also available at the EPC/@Buffalo page http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html Poetics Subscription Registration (required) poetics.list --at -- gmail.com note our new address! 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Also, please note that the Poetics List is not a "chat" list and we discourage the posting of very short messages intended for only a few subscribers. All posts go out not only to list subscribers but also become a public part of the list archive on the web. Note that posting to the list is a form of publication and that by sending your message to the list you formally consent to such web publication. Posts are currently being indexed by search engines such as Google. It is not possible for us to remove posts from the list archive or to control search engine indexing of these posts. Subscribers only may post to the Poetics List. Send messages directly to the list address: poetics@listserv.buffalo.edu. 3. Subscriptions *For all subscription requests go to http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/archives/poetics.html. *To subscribe for the first time click on "Subscribe (join) a List." Immediately following your subscription to the poetics listserv we ask that you email poetics@buffalo.edu, subject-line "registration," with your full name, street address, email address, and telephone number. Failure to register at the time of subscription will result in automatic deletion from the subscription roll. *To manage your subscription (for descriptions of the different subscription options please see section 3), click on "Subscriber's Corner." Subscriptions to the Poetics List are free of charge, but formal registration is required. All other questions about subscriptions, whether about an individual subscription or subscription policy, should be addressed to this same administrative address. PLEASE NOTE: All subscription-related information and correspondence remains absolutely confidential. All posts to the list must provide your full real name, as registered. If there is any discrepancy between your full name as it appears in the "from" line of the message header, please sign your post at the bottom. Subscribers who do not include their full name with each post will be unsubscribed form the list. The most frequent problem with subscriptions is bounced messages. If your system is often down or if you have a low disk quota, Poetics messages may get bounced, which will result in your subscription being automatically terminated by the Listserv program and the automatically generated message telling you that this has occurred will also likely bounce. If this happens, you may re-subscribe to the list by the same process described above. One remedy to avoid this happening in the future: set your list options to "no-mail" and read the list on the web. 4. Subscription Options We encourage you to alter your subscription options via the link on the right side of the screen at http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/archives/poetics.html. If you would prefer not to use the web-interface, you may also email the following commands: *to subscribe to the Poetics listserv send listserv@listserv.buffalo.edu this one-line message with no "subject": sub poetics [your Firstname and Lastname] *RECOMMENDED: if you wish to read the list on our web interface and not receive any messages sent directly, while remaining subscribed to the list and so eligible to send us posts, send this one-line message to with no "subject": set poetics nomail. Note: this option is also useful for temporary suspension of email service. *to reactivate Poetics e-mail send this one-line message with no "subject": set poetics mail * to receive the list in digest form (you will receive the day's individual posts in one email sent just after midnight EST), send this one-line message with no "subject": set poetics digest *to receive posts in the default option (you will receive individual postings immediately), send this one- line message with no "subject": set poetics nodigest * to receive the list in index form (you will receive a list, without the text of the posts, of the subjects discussed each day along with the author's name and address and the number of lines it comprises; you can also choose to have the index sent to you in either plain text or in HTML format with hyperlinks), send this one-line message with no "subject": set poetics nohtml index --or-- set poetics html index PLEASE NOTE: do not leave your Poetics subscription in default or digest mode if you are going to be away for any extended period of time. Your account may become flooded and you may lose Poetics messages as well as other important mail. In such cases, switch your subscription to "nomail" as recommended above. 5. To Unsubscribe To unsubscribe (or change any of your subscription options), again, we strongly encourage you to go to the right-hand side of the screen at http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/archives/poetics.html You may also may unsubscribe by sending a one-line email to with no "subject": unsub poetics If you are having difficulty unsubscribing, please note: sometimes your e-mail address may be changed slightly by your system administrator. If this happens you will not be able to send messages to Poetics or to unsubscribe, although you will continue to receive mail from the Poetics List. To avoid this problem, unsub using your old address, then resubscribe with your new email address. 6. Cautions "Flame" messages will not be tolerated on the Poetics List. We define 'flaming' as any post that resembles a personal attack or personal insult to anyone--subscriber or not. This of course includes racist, sexist, or other slurs as well as ad hominem arguments in which the person rather than their work is attacked; in other words while critique of a person's work is welcome (critical inquiry is one of the main functions of the list), this critique cannot extend to a critique or criticism of the person. The listserv is intended to be a productive communal space for discussion and announcements; as such, subscribers who do not follow listserv policy will be removed from the subscription roll. In enforcing this policy, the editors must consider sometimes competing interests. The basis for our decisions, however, rests with our collective judgment about the kind of space we want for the list. For reasons of basic security, we do not allow pseudonymous subscriptions. All messages intended for the Poetics List should be sent in Text-Only format, without attachments. We do not accept HTML-formatted messages or attached files. As a general rule, keep individual posts to 1,000 words or less. Please do not publish list postings without the express permission of the author. Posting on the list is a form of publication. Copyright for all material posted on Poetics remains with the author; material from this list and its archive may not be reproduced without the author's permission, beyond the standard rights accorded by "fair use" of published materials. All material on the Poetics List remains the property of the authors; before you reproduce this material, in whole or in part, we ask that you get permission (by email is fine) from the authors. If they give permission, then we ask only that you say that the post or posts appeared originally on the Poetics List (http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html) on [give date and say:] Used by permission of the author. As an outside maximum, we will accept no more than 4 messages per day from any one subscriber. Also, given that our goal is a manageable list (manageable both for moderators and subscribers), the list accepts 75 or fewer messages per day, though these paramenters may be changed at the discretion of the list moderator. Like all systems, the listserv will sometimes be down: if you feel your message has been delayed or lost, *please wait at least one day to see if it shows up*, then check the archive to be sure the message is not posted there; if you still feel there is a problem, you may wish to contact the editors at . http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 12:58:02 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Re: Poetics List Welcome Message In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Nice touch. Kinda like Dr Phil & South African, Oprah Winphrey. But david Letterman - AJ --- Poetics List wrote: > Please note changes to the Welcome Message: > > > The Poetics List > > Sponsored by: The Electronic Poetry Center > (SUNY-Buffalo/University of > Pennsylvania) and the Regan Chair (Department of > English, Penn) & > Center for Program in Contemporary Writing (Penn) > > Poetics List Editor: Amy King > > Poetics List Editorial Board: > Charles Bernstein, Julia Bloch, Lori Emerson, Amy > King, Joel Kuszai, > Nick Piombino > > Note: this Welcome message is also available at the > EPC/@Buffalo page > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > Poetics Subscription Registration (required) > poetics.list --at -- gmail.com > note our new address! > > Poetics Subscription Requests: > http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/archives/poetics.html > > Poetics Listserv Archive: > http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/archives/poetics.html > > Note that any correspondence sent to the Poetics > List administration > account takes about ten days, for response; mail to > this account is > checked about once per week. > > C O N T E N T S: > > 1. About the Poetics List > 2. Posting to the List > 3. Subscriptions > 4. Subscription Options > 5. To Unsubscribe > 6. Cautions > > -------------------------------------------- > > Above the world-weary horizons > New obstacles for exchange arise > Or unfold, > O ye postmasters! > > > 1. About the Poetics List > > With the preceding epigraph, the Poetics Listserv > was founded by > Charles Bernstein in late 1993. Now in its fourth > incarnation, the > list has over 1300 subscribers worldwide. We also > have a substantial > number of nonsubscribing readers, who access the > list through our web > site (see archive URL above). > > The Poetics List is not a forum for a general > discussion of poetry or > for the exchange of poems. Our aim is to support, > inform, and extend > those directions in poetry that are committed to > innovations, > renovations, and investigations of form and/or/as > content, to the > questioning of received forms and styles, and to the > creation of the > otherwise unimagined, untried, unexpected, > improbable, and impossible. > While we recognize that other lists may sponsor > other possibilities > for exchange, we request that those participating in > this forum keep > in mind the specialized and focused nature of this > project and respect > our decision to operate a moderated list. The > Poetics List exists to > support and encourage divergent points of view on > innovative forms of > modern and contemporary poetry and poetics, and we > are committed to do > what is necessary to preserve this space for such > dialog. > > Due to the high number of subscribers, we no longer > maintain the open > format with which the list began (at under 100 > subscribers). The > specific form of moderation that we employ is a > relatively fluid one: > in most cases, messages are reviewed after having > been posted to the > list, and difficulties resolved on that basis; > however, the listserv > editorial board may shift between this and a > pre-review mode which > calls for all messages to be read and approved > before being forwarded > to the list. We prefer to avoid this option as it > hampers the > spontaneity of discussion that we hope to promote. > In addition to > these options, the editorial board will unsubscribe > individuals if > they are not, in our opinion, productively > contributing to the list or > following our guidelines. We remain committed to > this editorial > function as a defining element of the Poetics List. > > Please also note that this is a not a general > interest poetry list and > information about this list should not be posted to > directories of > poetry lists. The idea is to keep the list > membership to those with > specific engagement related to the list's stated > orientation. The > current limits of the list are 75 messages per day, > and a maximum of > four messages per subscriber per day; but these > limits are subject to > change withouth notice. > > In addition to being archived at through the EPC > (http://epc.buffalo.edu) and at > http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/archives/poetics.html, > some posts to > Poetics (especially reviews, obituary notices, > announcements, etc.) > may also become part of specific EPC subject areas. > > Note also that Roof Books published Joel Kuszai's > edited collection of > the Poetics List; this is available from ROOF and > also on line at the > EPC. > > > 2. Posting to the List > > The Poetics List is a moderated list. All messages > are reviewed by the > editors in keeping with the goals of the list as > articulated in this > Welcome Message (see section 1). > > Please note that while this list is primarily > concerned with > discussions of poetry and poetics, messages relating > to politics and > political activism, film, art, media, and so forth > are also welcome. > We strongly encourage subscribers to post > information, including web > links, relating to publications (print and > internet), reading series, > and blogs that they have coordinated, edited, > published, or in which > they appear. Such announcements constitute a core > function of this > list. Brief reviews of poetry events and > publications (print or > digital) are always welcome. > > We do not accept postings of creative work not > directed toward a > discussion of poetics issues on the list. The > Poetics List is not a > venue for the posting of free-standing, personal > poems or journal > entries. > > Also, please note that the Poetics List is not a > "chat" list and we > discourage the posting of very short messages > intended for only a few > subscribers. > > All posts go out not only to list subscribers but > also become a public > part of the list archive on the web. Note that > posting to the list is > a form of publication and that by sending your > message to the list you > formally consent to such web publication. Posts are > currently being > indexed by search engines such as Google. It is not > possible for us to > remove posts from the list archive or to control > search engine > indexing of these posts. > > Subscribers only may post to the Poetics List. Send > messages directly > to the list address: poetics@listserv.buffalo.edu. > > > 3. Subscriptions > > *For all subscription requests go to > http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/archives/poetics.html. > > *To subscribe for the first time click on "Subscribe > (join) a List." > Immediately following your subscription to the > poetics listserv we ask > that you email poetics@buffalo.edu, subject-line > "registration," with > your full name, street address, email address, and > telephone number. > Failure to register at the time of subscription will > result in > automatic deletion from the subscription roll. > > *To manage your subscription (for descriptions of > the different > subscription options please see section 3), click on > "Subscriber's > Corner." > > Subscriptions to the Poetics List are free of > charge, but formal > registration is required. All other questions about > subscriptions, > whether about an individual subscription or > subscription policy, > should be addressed to this same administrative > address. > > PLEASE NOTE: All subscription-related information > and correspondence > remains absolutely confidential. > > All posts to the list must provide your full real > name, as registered. > If there is any discrepancy between your full name > as it appears in > the "from" line of the message header, please sign > your post at the > bottom. Subscribers who do not include their full > name with each post > will be unsubscribed form the list. > > The most frequent problem with subscriptions is > bounced messages. If > your system is often down or if you have a low disk > quota, Poetics > messages may get bounced, which will result in your > subscription being > automatically terminated by the Listserv program and > the automatically > generated message telling you that this has occurred > will also likely > bounce. If this happens, you may re-subscribe to the > list by the same > process described above. One remedy to avoid this > happening in the > future: set your list options to "no-mail" and read > the list on the > web. > > 4. Subscription Options > > We encourage you to alter your subscription options > via the link on > the right side of the screen at > http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/archives/poetics.html. > If you would > prefer not to use the web-interface, you may also > email > the following > commands: > > *to subscribe to the Poetics listserv send > listserv@listserv.buffalo.edu this one-line message > with no "subject": > sub poetics [your Firstname and Lastname] > > *RECOMMENDED: if you wish to read the list on our > web interface and > not receive any messages sent directly, while > remaining subscribed to > the list and so eligible to send us posts, send this > one-line message > to with no > "subject": set poetics > nomail. Note: this option is also useful for > temporary suspension of > email service. > > *to reactivate Poetics e-mail send > > this one-line message with no "subject": set poetics > mail > > * to receive the list in digest form (you will > receive the day's > individual posts in one email sent just after > midnight EST), send > this one-line > message with no > "subject": set poetics digest > > *to receive posts in the default option (you will > receive individual > postings immediately), send > this one- > line message with no "subject": set poetics nodigest > > * to receive the list in index form (you will > receive a list, without > the text of the posts, of the subjects discussed > each day along with > the author's name and address and the number of > lines it comprises; > you can also choose to have the index sent to you in > either plain text > or in HTML format with hyperlinks), send > this one-line > message with no > "subject": set poetics nohtml index --or-- set > poetics html index > > PLEASE NOTE: do not leave your Poetics subscription > in default or > digest mode if you are going to be away for any > extended period of > time. Your account may become flooded and you may > lose Poetics > messages as well as other important mail. In such > cases, switch your > subscription to "nomail" as recommended above. > > 5. To Unsubscribe > > To unsubscribe (or change any of your subscription > options), again, we > strongly encourage you to go to the right-hand side > of the screen at > http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/archives/poetics.html > You may also > may unsubscribe by sending a one-line email to > with no "subject": > unsub poetics > > If you are having difficulty unsubscribing, please > note: sometimes > your e-mail address may be changed slightly by your > system > administrator. If this happens you will not be able > to send messages > to Poetics or to unsubscribe, although you will > continue to receive > mail from the Poetics List. To avoid this problem, > unsub using your > old address, then resubscribe with your new email > address. > > > 6. Cautions > > "Flame" messages will not be tolerated on the > Poetics List. We define > 'flaming' as any post that resembles a personal > attack or personal > insult to anyone--subscriber or not. This of course > includes racist, > sexist, or other slurs as well as ad hominem > arguments in which the > person rather than their work is attacked; in other > words while > critique of a person's work is welcome (critical > inquiry is one of the > main functions of the list), this critique cannot > extend to a critique > or criticism of the person. > > The listserv is intended to be a productive communal > space for > discussion and announcements; as such, subscribers > who do not follow > listserv policy will be removed from the > subscription roll. > > In enforcing this policy, the editors must consider > sometimes > competing interests. The basis for our decisions, > however, rests with > our collective judgment about the kind of space we > want for the list. > > For reasons of basic security, we do not allow > pseudonymous > subscriptions. All messages intended for the Poetics > List should be > sent in Text-Only format, without attachments. We do > not accept > HTML-formatted messages or attached files. As a > general rule, keep > individual posts to 1,000 words or less. > > Please do not publish list postings without the > express permission of > the author. Posting on the list is a form of > publication. Copyright > for all material posted on Poetics remains with the > author; material > from this list and its archive may not be reproduced > without the > author's permission, beyond the standard rights > accorded by "fair use" > of published materials. > > All material on the Poetics List remains the > property of the authors; > before you reproduce this material, in whole or in > part, we ask that > you get permission (by email is fine) from the > authors. If they give > permission, then we ask only that you say that the > post or posts > appeared originally on the Poetics List > (http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html) on > [give date and say:] > Used by permission of the author. > > As an outside maximum, we will accept no more than 4 > messages per day > from any one subscriber. Also, given that our goal > is a manageable > list (manageable both for moderators and > subscribers), the list > accepts 75 or fewer messages per day, though these > paramenters may be > changed at the discretion of the list moderator. > > Like all systems, the listserv will sometimes be > down: if you feel > your message has been delayed or lost, *please wait > at least one day > to see if it shows up*, then check the archive to be > sure the message > is not posted there; if you still feel there is a > problem, you may > wish to contact the editors at > . > > > http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/poetics/welcome.html > --- ____________________________________________________________________________________ Any questions? Get answers on any topic at www.Answers.yahoo.com. Try it now. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 15:36:35 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Tom W. Lewis" Subject: Re: Poetics List Welcome Message In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >The current limits of the list are 75 messages per day, and a maximum of=20 >four messages per subscriber per day; but these limits are subject to=20 >change withouth notice. 4 messages a day now?! never have the moderated=20 enjoyed such liberty at the hands of their moderators (or so it would appear) but I'm curious (in my giddy glee) about what precisely this project's expectations are... [bowing head to parse]:=20 to support, inform, and extend those directions=20 in poetry=20 committed=20 to innovations, renovations, and investigations=20 of form and/or/as content to the questioning of received forms and styles, and=20 to the creation=20 of the otherwise unimagined, untried,=20 unexpected, improbable, and impossible. Innovation, then;=20 questioning;=20 creation -- =20 these the goals of this virtual turkey-shoot. if anyone else has thoughts, elaborations, or counter-readings of "what this is all about," write 'em so we can all see. tl -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Poetics List Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 14:51 To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Poetics List Welcome Message Please note changes to the Welcome Message: The Poetics List Sponsored by: The Electronic Poetry Center (SUNY-Buffalo/University of Pennsylvania) and the Regan Chair (Department of English, Penn) & Center for Program in Contemporary Writing (Penn) Poetics List Editor: Amy King Poetics List Editorial Board: Charles Bernstein, Julia Bloch, Lori Emerson, Amy King, Joel Kuszai, Nick Piombino Note: this Welcome message is also available at the EPC/@Buffalo page http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html Poetics Subscription Registration (required) poetics.list --at -- gmail.com note our new address! Poetics Subscription Requests: http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/archives/poetics.html Poetics Listserv Archive: http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/archives/poetics.html Note that any correspondence sent to the Poetics List administration account takes about ten days, for response; mail to this account is checked about once per week. C O N T E N T S: 1. About the Poetics List 2. Posting to the List 3. Subscriptions 4. Subscription Options 5. To Unsubscribe 6. Cautions -------------------------------------------- Above the world-weary horizons New obstacles for exchange arise Or unfold, O ye postmasters! 1. About the Poetics List With the preceding epigraph, the Poetics Listserv was founded by Charles Bernstein in late 1993. Now in its fourth incarnation, the list has over 1300 subscribers worldwide. We also have a substantial number of nonsubscribing readers, who access the list through our web site (see archive URL above). The Poetics List is not a forum for a general discussion of poetry or for the exchange of poems. Our aim is to support, inform, and extend those directions in poetry that are committed to innovations, renovations, and investigations of form and/or/as content, to the questioning of received forms and styles, and to the creation of the otherwise unimagined, untried, unexpected, improbable, and impossible. While we recognize that other lists may sponsor other possibilities for exchange, we request that those participating in this forum keep in mind the specialized and focused nature of this project and respect our decision to operate a moderated list. The Poetics List exists to support and encourage divergent points of view on innovative forms of modern and contemporary poetry and poetics, and we are committed to do what is necessary to preserve this space for such dialog. Due to the high number of subscribers, we no longer maintain the open format with which the list began (at under 100 subscribers). The specific form of moderation that we employ is a relatively fluid one: in most cases, messages are reviewed after having been posted to the list, and difficulties resolved on that basis; however, the listserv editorial board may shift between this and a pre-review mode which calls for all messages to be read and approved before being forwarded to the list. We prefer to avoid this option as it hampers the spontaneity of discussion that we hope to promote. In addition to these options, the editorial board will unsubscribe individuals if they are not, in our opinion, productively contributing to the list or following our guidelines. We remain committed to this editorial function as a defining element of the Poetics List. Please also note that this is a not a general interest poetry list and information about this list should not be posted to directories of poetry lists. The idea is to keep the list membership to those with specific engagement related to the list's stated orientation. The current limits of the list are 75 messages per day, and a maximum of four messages per subscriber per day; but these limits are subject to change withouth notice. In addition to being archived at through the EPC (http://epc.buffalo.edu) and at http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/archives/poetics.html, some posts to Poetics (especially reviews, obituary notices, announcements, etc.) may also become part of specific EPC subject areas. Note also that Roof Books published Joel Kuszai's edited collection of the Poetics List; this is available from ROOF and also on line at the EPC. 2. Posting to the List The Poetics List is a moderated list. All messages are reviewed by the editors in keeping with the goals of the list as articulated in this Welcome Message (see section 1). Please note that while this list is primarily concerned with discussions of poetry and poetics, messages relating to politics and political activism, film, art, media, and so forth are also welcome. We strongly encourage subscribers to post information, including web links, relating to publications (print and internet), reading series, and blogs that they have coordinated, edited, published, or in which they appear. Such announcements constitute a core function of this list. Brief reviews of poetry events and publications (print or digital) are always welcome. We do not accept postings of creative work not directed toward a discussion of poetics issues on the list. The Poetics List is not a venue for the posting of free-standing, personal poems or journal entries. Also, please note that the Poetics List is not a "chat" list and we discourage the posting of very short messages intended for only a few subscribers. All posts go out not only to list subscribers but also become a public part of the list archive on the web. Note that posting to the list is a form of publication and that by sending your message to the list you formally consent to such web publication. Posts are currently being indexed by search engines such as Google. It is not possible for us to remove posts from the list archive or to control search engine indexing of these posts. Subscribers only may post to the Poetics List. Send messages directly to the list address: poetics@listserv.buffalo.edu. 3. Subscriptions *For all subscription requests go to http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/archives/poetics.html. *To subscribe for the first time click on "Subscribe (join) a List." Immediately following your subscription to the poetics listserv we ask that you email poetics@buffalo.edu, subject-line "registration," with your full name, street address, email address, and telephone number. Failure to register at the time of subscription will result in automatic deletion from the subscription roll. *To manage your subscription (for descriptions of the different subscription options please see section 3), click on "Subscriber's Corner." Subscriptions to the Poetics List are free of charge, but formal registration is required. All other questions about subscriptions, whether about an individual subscription or subscription policy, should be addressed to this same administrative address. PLEASE NOTE: All subscription-related information and correspondence remains absolutely confidential. All posts to the list must provide your full real name, as registered. If there is any discrepancy between your full name as it appears in the "from" line of the message header, please sign your post at the bottom. Subscribers who do not include their full name with each post will be unsubscribed form the list. The most frequent problem with subscriptions is bounced messages. If your system is often down or if you have a low disk quota, Poetics messages may get bounced, which will result in your subscription being automatically terminated by the Listserv program and the automatically generated message telling you that this has occurred will also likely bounce. If this happens, you may re-subscribe to the list by the same process described above. One remedy to avoid this happening in the future: set your list options to "no-mail" and read the list on the web. 4. Subscription Options We encourage you to alter your subscription options via the link on the right side of the screen at http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/archives/poetics.html. If you would prefer not to use the web-interface, you may also email the following commands: *to subscribe to the Poetics listserv send listserv@listserv.buffalo.edu this one-line message with no "subject": sub poetics [your Firstname and Lastname] *RECOMMENDED: if you wish to read the list on our web interface and not receive any messages sent directly, while remaining subscribed to the list and so eligible to send us posts, send this one-line message to with no "subject": set poetics nomail. Note: this option is also useful for temporary suspension of email service. *to reactivate Poetics e-mail send this one-line message with no "subject": set poetics mail * to receive the list in digest form (you will receive the day's individual posts in one email sent just after midnight EST), send this one-line message with no "subject": set poetics digest *to receive posts in the default option (you will receive individual postings immediately), send this one- line message with no "subject": set poetics nodigest * to receive the list in index form (you will receive a list, without the text of the posts, of the subjects discussed each day along with the author's name and address and the number of lines it comprises; you can also choose to have the index sent to you in either plain text or in HTML format with hyperlinks), send this one-line message with no "subject": set poetics nohtml index --or-- set poetics html index PLEASE NOTE: do not leave your Poetics subscription in default or digest mode if you are going to be away for any extended period of time. Your account may become flooded and you may lose Poetics messages as well as other important mail. In such cases, switch your subscription to "nomail" as recommended above. 5. To Unsubscribe To unsubscribe (or change any of your subscription options), again, we strongly encourage you to go to the right-hand side of the screen at http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/archives/poetics.html You may also may unsubscribe by sending a one-line email to with no "subject": unsub poetics If you are having difficulty unsubscribing, please note: sometimes your e-mail address may be changed slightly by your system administrator. If this happens you will not be able to send messages to Poetics or to unsubscribe, although you will continue to receive mail from the Poetics List. To avoid this problem, unsub using your old address, then resubscribe with your new email address. 6. Cautions "Flame" messages will not be tolerated on the Poetics List. We define 'flaming' as any post that resembles a personal attack or personal insult to anyone--subscriber or not. This of course includes racist, sexist, or other slurs as well as ad hominem arguments in which the person rather than their work is attacked; in other words while critique of a person's work is welcome (critical inquiry is one of the main functions of the list), this critique cannot extend to a critique or criticism of the person. The listserv is intended to be a productive communal space for discussion and announcements; as such, subscribers who do not follow listserv policy will be removed from the subscription roll. In enforcing this policy, the editors must consider sometimes competing interests. The basis for our decisions, however, rests with our collective judgment about the kind of space we want for the list. For reasons of basic security, we do not allow pseudonymous subscriptions. All messages intended for the Poetics List should be sent in Text-Only format, without attachments. We do not accept HTML-formatted messages or attached files. As a general rule, keep individual posts to 1,000 words or less. Please do not publish list postings without the express permission of the author. Posting on the list is a form of publication. Copyright for all material posted on Poetics remains with the author; material from this list and its archive may not be reproduced without the author's permission, beyond the standard rights accorded by "fair use" of published materials. All material on the Poetics List remains the property of the authors; before you reproduce this material, in whole or in part, we ask that you get permission (by email is fine) from the authors. If they give permission, then we ask only that you say that the post or posts appeared originally on the Poetics List (http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html) on [give date and say:] Used by permission of the author. As an outside maximum, we will accept no more than 4 messages per day from any one subscriber. Also, given that our goal is a manageable list (manageable both for moderators and subscribers), the list accepts 75 or fewer messages per day, though these paramenters may be changed at the discretion of the list moderator. Like all systems, the listserv will sometimes be down: if you feel your message has been delayed or lost, *please wait at least one day to see if it shows up*, then check the archive to be sure the message is not posted there; if you still feel there is a problem, you may wish to contact the editors at . http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/poetics/welcome.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 15:48:04 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Fwd: Dylan symposium registration now OPEN Comments: To: WRYTING-L@LISTSERV.WVU.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >Dylan symposium-early registration through March 12 > >Highway 61 Revisited: Dylan's Road from Minnesota to the World >University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, MN >March 24-March 27, 2007 >For program and registration information: >http://weisman.umn.edu/exhibits/upcomingDylan.html > >Assessing Bob Dylan's work, sources, and international influence, >this symposium features Greil Marcus, Michael Gray, Christopher >Ricks, Alessandro Carrera, Anne Waldman, Daphne Brooks, Matt >Friedberger, Gayle Wald, Dave Marsh, Thomas Crow, CP Lee, Darcey >Steinke, Robert Polito, Stephen Scobie, Dylan Hicks and other >musicians, and more. The symposium is presented in conjunction with >the Weisman Art Museum exhibition Bob Dylan's American Journey, >1956-66, on view through April 29, 2007. > > >Jill Boldenow >Weisman Art Museum >333 E. River Road >Minneapolis, MN 55455 >612-624-5647 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 15:49:09 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Coffey Subject: Re: Jed Rasula's Poetics of Embodiment In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline You probably have a 50/50 chance or better of getting it through interlibrary loan if you have a university connection. (confidential to George B: wood -------- carry On 2/12/07, eleni Stecopoulos wrote: > To the person looking for this: it's his dissertation, from UC Santa Cruz. > Should be available from UMI. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Don't miss your chance to WIN 10 hours of private jet travel from Microsoft > Office Live http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0540002499mrt/direct/01/ > -- http://hyperhypo.org/blog http://www.pftborder.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 16:12:31 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Trigilio Subject: Court Green #4 / Dossier: Political Poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Announcing the release of COURT GREEN #4, featuring Nin Andrews, Kurt Brown, Brenda Coultas, Christopher Davis, Elaine Equi, Terrance Hayes, George Kalamaris, Joan Larkin, D.H. Lawrence, Bernadette Mayer, Gail Mazur, Sheila E. Murphy, Naomi Shihab Nye, Alan Michael Parker, Muriel Rukeyser, Jerome Sala, Aaron Smith, Novica Tadic, Susan Tichy, Susie Timmons, Nick Twemlow, Lee Upton, Joshua Marie Wilkinson, and many others. Our special dossier section in this issue features a collection of political poetry. Copies for $10 each (checks payable to Columbia College Chicago) through the address below. Subscriptions are $25 for three years (three issues). COURT GREEN Columbia College Chicago English Department 600 South Michigan Ave. Chicago, IL 60605. COURT GREEN is a poetry journal published annually in association with the English Department at Columbia College Chicago, and is edited by Lisa Fishman, Arielle Greenberg, Tony Trigilio, and David Trinidad. Submissions of poetry are welcomed each year from March 1 through June 30 (no more than 5 pages of poems). Email submissions not accepted. Submissions without self-addressed, stamped envelope will not be returned. http://english.colum.edu/courtreen (the web site will be updated soon) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 22:18:38 -0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robin Hamilton Subject: Re: praise to the watch MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Gabriel Gudding" > Looking at the paintings of Wm Hogarth - was just struck by how many are > of women and watches/clocks. The watch and women have this buried history > that goes weirdly back to people like Pepys and Tompion. I'm not sure yet > what to make of it. Gabe Ah, that confirms it -- I've now got an Unarguable Reason to go to the Hogarth exhibition on at the Tate at the moment. I'll keep an eye out for watches (though they'd all be analogue in his paintings, pace Alan Sondheim, surely?) and let you know what I notice. (I only recently came on his [later] paintings, as opposed to all the usual Progress series of etchings, and they blew my mind. Reports of the Tate exhibition that I've read suggest that they're juxtaposing the two periods in Hogarth's work.) Robin ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 16:27:02 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Trigilio Subject: Sorry, typo on the Court Green URL MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Apologies for the mistake. Should be: http://english.colum.edu/courtgreen/ (Web site is not updated yet, though.) Tony ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 13:00:41 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Our messages are being monitored In-Reply-To: <1dec21ae0702121132i39461078w4da5b572ae60226@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I was told that my post, I a responsible member of the world community, will wait 1-3 days before my message is posted. China, man. AJ --- Murat Nemet-Nejat wrote: > Gabriel, > > I second. Alan. Your piece ticks away. > > Murat > > On 2/12/07, Alan Sondheim > wrote: > > > > Ah, this is one of the most beautiful pieces I've > read in a long time; > > there's something 17th18th century running > through it, those references > > to Pepys for example though I still prefer Johnson > they're still > > associated in my mind. The incantatory prose > itself ticks away, I miss the > > digital, though there are slight references; the > poem is mechanism, the > > digital might as well not be a watch since it is > watched itself, clocked > > itself, in order that the parts function together. > Now we will have > > asynchronous computers in the future, what will > that be light? > > > > In regard to moderation, I'm not so positive as > the two other members who > > have written in; poets are an unruly bunch and > that seems to be at the > > heart of remaking language itself. Here we > literally have to have Amy's > > approval, and it's unclear where that stands, what > is acceptable to her > > and what is not. As far as unpleasant posts to a > list - there's no reason > > at all why posts _should_ be pleasant or > etiquette-fulfilled, as long as > > there is no outandout racism, name-calling, what > have you. For poets are > > also a stubborn bunch; it takes courage to write > poetry, perhaps the most > > courage at all, and it's a shame so little of it > appears in this forum. > > (The email list I run with Sandy Baldwin, wryting, > is filled with it by > > the way.) > > > > For my recent work, just check the blog or Youtube > at times, although the > > accompanying texts are absent; for example > > > > "for valeska gert > > > > ruptured mess of the avatars banged into one > another maybe they fucked in > > any case whatever skin they had disappeared in any > case the lens blew out > > with all the action in any case i'm exhausted from > their screaming why not > > mash them mosh them why not mash us mosh us in any > case by this time it's > > all debris by this time i'm under the cabinet by > this time doctor leopold > > konninger returns with horn-rimmed dark glasses in > any case he says if you > > can't dance to it anita berber you might as well > explode valeska gert > > > > http://www.asondheim.org/ruptured.mp4 > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R54HTJUfeiM > > http://www.asondheim.org/bubbled.mp4 > > > > when history becomes histrionic naked dance > parades on the silver screen > > oh they look so good light shining through the > bones" > > > > -- Valeska Gert was a Jewish dancer of the > grotesque during the Weimar > > years. > > > > -- Gabe and Amy, good luck! > > > > > ======================================================================= > > Work on YouTube, blog at > http://nikuko.blogspot.com . Tel 718-813-3285. > > Webpage directory http://www.asondheim.org . > Email: sondheim@panix.com. > > http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim > for theory; also check > > WVU Zwiki, Google for recent. Write for info on > books, cds, performance, > > dvds, etc. > ============================================================= > > > --- ____________________________________________________________________________________ Don't pick lemons. See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 14:48:44 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: Place & Wertheim at Small Press Traffic Fri 2/16 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Small Press Traffic is pleased to present Vanessa Place & Christine Wertheim Friday, February 16, 2007 at 7:30 p.m.? Vanessa Place is the author of a 50,000-word, one-sentence novel, Dies: A Sentence (2005), and co-founder/editor at Les Figues Press, publisher of the TrenchArt series of experimental literature. Her work has appeared in Film Comment, the LA Weekly Literary Supplement, and Five Fingers Review. Of Dies, the American Book Review has this to say: "... heaven may be no more than this grace of an extended lucidity in a mind struck brilliant by the imminent threat of fate.... as one comma leads to another in this delightful tour de force of a hopelessly grim predicament." Christine Wertheim writes poetics and aesthetic criticism. Her book +|'me'S-pace, will be published in 2007 by Les Figues Press. Other work has appeared in La Petite Zine, Five Fingers Review, Cabinet, Open Letter, Art History vs Aesthetics and X-tra. With Matias Viegener, she co-organizes an annual writing conference whose publications are Séance (2006) and The?noulipian Analects (2007). She teaches literature, writing and feminisms in the school of Critical Studies at CalArts. ”helled by her being” – Christine Wertheim, like Caroline Bergvall, has got to be seen and heard in the flesh. ???$5-10 sliding scale, free to SPT members & CCA community. Timken Lecture Hall CCA 1111 -- 8th St, SF for directions & map please see: http://www.sptraffic.org/html/fac_dir.html Elizabeth Treadwell, Director Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center at CCA 1111 -- 8th Street San Francisco, CA 94107 415.551.9278 http://www.sptraffic.org _________________________________________________________________ Don’t miss your chance to WIN 10 hours of private jet travel from Microsoft Office Live http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0540002499mrt/direct/01/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 18:00:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eric Subject: Re: Our messages are being monitored In-Reply-To: <167708.8713.qm@web54603.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>China, man. Argot is "the great firewall of China." A software called the Great Ladder supposedly helps people get over the great (fire)wall. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 18:10:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Re: Our messages are being monitored In-Reply-To: <167708.8713.qm@web54603.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Alex Don't blame this one on China. I got the same message here in the People's Democracy of South Florida. And then the message in question appeared a few minutes later. Go figure. Vernon http://vernonfrazer.com -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Alexander Jorgensen Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 4:01 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Our messages are being monitored I was told that my post, I a responsible member of the world community, will wait 1-3 days before my message is posted. China, man. AJ --- Murat Nemet-Nejat wrote: > Gabriel, > > I second. Alan. Your piece ticks away. > > Murat > > On 2/12/07, Alan Sondheim > wrote: > > > > Ah, this is one of the most beautiful pieces I've > read in a long time; > > there's something 17th18th century running > through it, those references > > to Pepys for example though I still prefer Johnson > they're still > > associated in my mind. The incantatory prose > itself ticks away, I miss the > > digital, though there are slight references; the > poem is mechanism, the > > digital might as well not be a watch since it is > watched itself, clocked > > itself, in order that the parts function together. > Now we will have > > asynchronous computers in the future, what will > that be light? > > > > In regard to moderation, I'm not so positive as > the two other members who > > have written in; poets are an unruly bunch and > that seems to be at the > > heart of remaking language itself. Here we > literally have to have Amy's > > approval, and it's unclear where that stands, what > is acceptable to her > > and what is not. As far as unpleasant posts to a > list - there's no reason > > at all why posts _should_ be pleasant or > etiquette-fulfilled, as long as > > there is no outandout racism, name-calling, what > have you. For poets are > > also a stubborn bunch; it takes courage to write > poetry, perhaps the most > > courage at all, and it's a shame so little of it > appears in this forum. > > (The email list I run with Sandy Baldwin, wryting, > is filled with it by > > the way.) > > > > For my recent work, just check the blog or Youtube > at times, although the > > accompanying texts are absent; for example > > > > "for valeska gert > > > > ruptured mess of the avatars banged into one > another maybe they fucked in > > any case whatever skin they had disappeared in any > case the lens blew out > > with all the action in any case i'm exhausted from > their screaming why not > > mash them mosh them why not mash us mosh us in any > case by this time it's > > all debris by this time i'm under the cabinet by > this time doctor leopold > > konninger returns with horn-rimmed dark glasses in > any case he says if you > > can't dance to it anita berber you might as well > explode valeska gert > > > > http://www.asondheim.org/ruptured.mp4 > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R54HTJUfeiM > > http://www.asondheim.org/bubbled.mp4 > > > > when history becomes histrionic naked dance > parades on the silver screen > > oh they look so good light shining through the > bones" > > > > -- Valeska Gert was a Jewish dancer of the > grotesque during the Weimar > > years. > > > > -- Gabe and Amy, good luck! > > > > > ======================================================================= > > Work on YouTube, blog at > http://nikuko.blogspot.com . Tel 718-813-3285. > > Webpage directory http://www.asondheim.org . > Email: sondheim@panix.com. > > http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim > for theory; also check > > WVU Zwiki, Google for recent. Write for info on > books, cds, performance, > > dvds, etc. > ============================================================= > > > --- ____________________________________________________________________________ ________ Don't pick lemons. See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 18:32:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anselm Berrigan Subject: Fwd: Bowery Broadside Series 2,3,4 Pass it on! In-Reply-To: <52681.15740.qm@web58802.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed 16 Feb 2007, 7:00 to 8:30 Bowery & Bleeker, New York, New York 11206 Cost : 2 Drink Minimum (free admission) Farfalla Press presents the second installment of the Bowery Broadside=20 Series featuring Marcella Durand and Jesse Fiorini. First 50 people=20 receive free broadsides. All original art work for the series provided=20 by George Schneeman =C2=A0 All events are 7:00 to 8:30 pm =C2=A0 March, 16th Lee Renaldo and Jessica Rogers =C2=A0 April 20th Anne Waldman and Corrine Fitzpatrick =C2=A0 ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and=20 security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from=20 across the web, free AOL Mail and more. =3D0 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 01:01:42 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: reJennifer Bartlett Subject: BugHoouse Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Does anyone know how to reach Doug Blumhardt, Eric Peterson, or Noah Stroehle? These were editors of a AZ/NM magazine called Bughouse in the mid-1990's. Please backchannel! _________________________________________________________________ FREE online classifieds from Windows Live Expo – buy and sell with people you know http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwex0010000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://expo.live.com?s_cid=Hotmail_tagline_12/06 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 17:39:10 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: The Hoohah Dialogues In-Reply-To: <20070212195812.EJTF157.ibm60aec.bellsouth.net@HPLASERJ> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline did anybody bother to ask the playwright??? -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 17:58:46 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: Chicago Performance Symposium: February 22-23 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The Disappearance of Latitude: Live Presence and Realtime in Contemporary Practices A two-day symposium Thursday February 22 & Friday February 23 http://www.openportchicago.com Chicago, IL Free This symposium brings together theorists and practitioners from a variety of backgrounds to present lectures and participate in discussions formulated around the themes of “Live” and “Realtime,” and topics that arise from this convergence of terms. As with the OPENPORT performance series, the intention of the symposium is to group speakers from fields and backgrounds that, while perhaps not normally exposed to one another, may share a common vocabulary. This symposium is presented in collaboration with The School of the Art Institute of Chicago’s Performance Department. ADVANCE REGISTRATION ESSENTIAL: email mjeffe@saic.edu or write to SAIC, Performance Department, c/o Mark Jeffery, 280 S. Columbus Drive, Chicago, IL 60603. Please include name, phone number, email address, affiliation (if any), number and names of people you are reserving for. ***Reservation deadline: Monday, February 19.*** Opening Address Adrian Heathfield (UK) - Impress of Time Thursday February 22, 6pm SAIC Auditorium, 280 S. Columbus Drive Moving away from ideas of performance as a momentary shattering, a technique of disappearance, Heathfield explores the way that performance remains in and through the experience of duration, and how performance allows a vital space for the lived understanding of time within the contemporary. Friday February 23, 9am – 4:30pm SAIC Performance Space 012 & Base Space, 280 S. Columbus Drive Friday’s symposium events consist of talks from two distinguished visiting scholars, in conjunction with panel presentations from OPENPORT artists and SAIC faculty members. Visiting Scholars: Wendy Hui Kyong Chun, Brown University (US): Realtime Imagined Networks N. Katherine Hayles, UCLA (US): The Time of Electronic Literature OPENPORT Artists / Panelists: jonCates (US) – OPENPORT artist/SAIC Faculty John Cayley (UK) – OPENPORT artist Lin Hixson (US) – SAIC Faculty Kirsten Lavers (UK) – OPENPORT artist Matthew Goulish (US) – SAIC Faculty Laetitia Sonami (US) – OPENPORT artist Alan Sondheim (US) – OPENPORT artist Fiona Wright (UK) – OPENPORT artist ____________________________________________________________________________________ Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check. Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_tools.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 19:36:25 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Potree Journal Subject: Call for submissions In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Little Red Leaves is a collectively edited online poetry journal. Our first issue will be released on MayDay (May 1st 2007). Since this is a collective, we do not subscribe to any one poetics/school of poetry etc. and the hope is that this will still ensure an interesting read. We also have a chapbook press, Dos Press, which will be debuting in May as well. (In addition to this post, information about the journal can be found at littleredleavesjournal.blogspot.com ) *General Submissions: Please send 3-5 poems (of any length) as a Word, RTF, or PDF attachment to littleredleaves@gmail.com. In the subject line include your name and "general." *Other Submissions: Each editor might also decide to edit a 'special section' with more specific guidelines. These will be posted separately as such. Simultaneous submissions are accepted as long as you let us know if someone else has snatched your brilliant poem first. We do not consider previously published work. Please allow six to eight weeks for a response. After eight weeks, please query if you haven't heard a word. *Queries: Send any questions you might have to littleredleaves@gmail.com with "Query" as your subject line. Special Calls : Currently we have two calls- one for long poems and one for entre-genres. Please see the blog for updates/editions to these. We hope to hear from you! Alison Cimino Michelle Detorie Julia Drescher Chad Heltzel CJ Martin Pablo Miguel Martinez Karen McBurney ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 18:53:39 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Mom w/first published poem Comments: To: "Poetryetc provides a venue for a dialogue relating to poetry and poetics"@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU, POETRYETC@JISCMAIL.AC.UK Comments: cc: UK POETRY Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ For those with a continuing interest, a new blog entry re my almost 91- year-old mom's apparent, totally unintended, new career in poetry - Re her responses to her recent publication in Jow Lindsay's edit of the London mag, Everyone's Cup of Tea! (Also an event in itself, the mag!). Enjoy, Stephen V ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 19:02:36 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: haiku In-Reply-To: <8C91AB2D92EA93C-D08-26A9@WEBMAIL-MA21.sysops.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Michael--- Part of my issue with the invocation of those 'legitimate' Euro- American modernist analogies for haiku practice is because they rely on a notion of 'objective' and 'things' which still largely operate against a backdrop, or within an 'understanding,' of a 'subject-object' dichotomy that lopsidedly favors one side.... They both become such 'reductive' catchphrases, even if ideally they open the door to a less clamped-down understanding. I've used both phrases in non-pejorative ways in certain (pedagogical) situations, but when people try to separate the "Objective Correlative" (GOOD) from the "pathetic fallacy" (BAD), I tend to want to "elevate" the "pathetic fallacy" to acknowledge that the "objective-subjective matrix" is not a one-way street. As for "no ideas but in things," what I tend to see in the very same poems that people often champion for meeting the non-pejorative standards of exemplary in the "no ideas but in things vein," is "No Ideas but in relationships"--- so, in that hAIKU you quoted, that's what I saw....a relationship between things (but at the same time "things" that are 'of' relationship.... as it seems to me (and I believe you'd have to agree) that the best haiku involve the relationship between the 'word' and 'thing,' the word as thing, and has as much of counter- pull away from the 'thing' as toward it.... Is it really "the emotive power BEHIND things" as you put it? I can appreciate that you want to be a spokesman for haiku, and I am not going to claim that I am as learned in it, as you, and am quite willing, along with Barry Schwabsky and others, to let you have that word, but, as an outsider, I am curious as to what role you think what a contemporary American (or from wherever) would call 'humor' or 'wit' had, or may have had, in that founding impulse to the haiku. You've sufficiently established that the traditional haiku form is a more serious art than many give it credit for, but I'm curious in what ways you also find that the traiditional haiku form a more hilarious art form than many give it credit for. I ask this question with no disrespect to you, or the traditional haiku form as you understand it, but more out of a genuine desire to BE CONVINCED by your understanding of the form, because, for me (whether rightly or wrongly), there can't be one (high seriousness) without the other ('hilarity' for lack of a better word-thing approximation).... Chris On Feb 9, 2007, at 2:43 PM, Michael Dylan Welch wrote: > Chris Stroffolino also writes that one of the "shorthand staples of > early 20th c.---eliot's objective > correlative? or no ideas but in things?" . . . "seems to distort/ > reduce too the haiku suggestiveness." > > I would answer by saying this: Because haiku -- perhaps more than > any other poetry (because it's so short) -- relies on the emotive > power behind things, the notion of the objective correlative > increases its suggestiveness rather than distort or reduce it. We > have an immediate reaction to the word chair that's different, say, > than our reaction to the word soup. And think, too, of how we react > differently to "easy chair" compared with "electric chair." I'm > just naming things with these examples, but these objects correlate > to immediate emotions or feelings, or connotations and > associations. Even a "stone" will carry some feeling for us when we > read the word in a poem, though of course the nature of that > feeling may vary from person to person. There's more to the concept > of the objective correlative than just this, of course, but haiku > relies on the emotive power of things perhaps more strongly than > other poetry. To the extent that haiku is mostly objective, > focusing on nouns a > nd things such as they are (yet presented in such a way to imply a > relationship and an intuitive feeling), haiku strongly rely on the > emotive weight associated with each thing named in the poem. > Certainly there are subjective or nonliteral elements in some haiku > (such as in Shiki's poem, "for me going / for you staying / two > autumns," or Basho's haiku about the cicada's cries piercing the > rocks), but not every haiku is or needs to be strictly objective. > It's a matter of finding balance, within each poem, and in a > particular poem relative to other poems. They are examples of > controlling the objectivity and subjectivity, and typically, where > there's a subjective element in haiku, it's usually in the context > of something that's clearly objective -- something that grounds the > rest of the poem so the subjective element isn't overpowering. > > Sure, you can do ____ (whatever: fill in the blank) in a haiku -- > but not necessarily often (heck, even have a title once in a very > rare while, if it somehow really needs it). Haiku is not a strict > set of rules (don't think that I think it is). Rather, haiku is a > field of multiple targets, and a good haiku will hit multiple > targets at once, but not necessarily all of them -- and > occasionally miss one or two of them (on purpose) that certain > people might feel are more important and should never be missed. > That's why it's good to see haiku as a continuum with other kinds > of poetry. Poetry first, labels later (if at all). But, I hasten to > say, as soon as you label something as haiku, it had better be a > proper understanding of haiku that you mean -- and for too many > folks, that's not the case. > > Michael ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 14:47:53 +1100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alison Croggon Subject: Re: haiku In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I guess the haiku interests me most of all in the context of haibun, that prose/poem nexus is a happening thing. From what I understand, the conventions of seasons &c are all invented by Basho anyway - would he have wanted slavish copyists? On 2/13/07, Chris Stroffolino wrote: > Michael--- > > Part of my issue with the invocation of those 'legitimate' Euro- > American modernist analogies for haiku practice > is because they rely on a notion of 'objective' and 'things' which > still largely operate against a backdrop, or within > an 'understanding,' of a 'subject-object' dichotomy that lopsidedly > favors one side.... > They both become such 'reductive' catchphrases, even if ideally they > open the door to a less clamped-down understanding. > > I've used both phrases in non-pejorative ways in certain > (pedagogical) situations, > but when people try to separate the "Objective Correlative" (GOOD) > from the "pathetic fallacy" (BAD), > I tend to want to "elevate" the "pathetic fallacy" to acknowledge > that the "objective-subjective matrix" is not a one-way street. > As for "no ideas but in things," what I tend to see in the very same > poems that people often champion for meeting the > non-pejorative standards of exemplary in the "no ideas but in things > vein," is "No Ideas but in relationships"--- Hey Chris, you're my kind of guy. Only recently I was rehabilitating the pathetic fallacy from Ruskin's character assassinations - all that manly Victorianism caused him a few problems, I think. Cheers A -- Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 00:05:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: The Hoohah Dialogues In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed That would be an even bigger news story. At 08:39 PM 2/12/2007, you wrote: >did anybody bother to ask the playwright??? > >-- >All best, >Catherine Daly >c.a.b.daly@gmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 00:20:35 -0500 Reply-To: Joel Lewis Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Lewis Subject: ornette & the grammies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I had the privelige of interviewing Ornette Coleman last year at his loft & the impression I came away with was a man who put no walls between categories of music. Is it really such a horror to be asked to be a presenter of an award? Like many so-called avant-garde jazz musicians, Coleman has always wanted to be present his music to as wide as possible an audience --hence Prime Time, the attempts at using vocalists here and there and the classical music. As early as '62, at his Town Hall concert which was released at ESP, Ornette performed with an r n' b group --which sadly was not released and apparently no longer exists on tape. Actually amazing that he got the lifetime award! joel lewis ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 00:34:44 -0500 Reply-To: Martha Deed Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Martha Deed Subject: Re: Mom w/first published poem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Stephen-- This is both powerful and touching. I really liked the originality of your mother's words, too, both in the poem and in her discussion with you of her poem -- her connection to the poem. And -- your blog entry is really an instance of image and text reinforcing one another. What she produces, what you facilitate, takes one beyond some of the dichotomies we often think about here. I hope that you continue to announce her progress here. Martha ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen Vincent" To: Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 9:53 PM Subject: Mom w/first published poem > http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > > For those with a continuing interest, a new blog entry re my almost 91- > year-old mom's apparent, totally unintended, new career in poetry - Re her > responses to her recent publication in Jow Lindsay's edit of the London mag, > Everyone's Cup of Tea! (Also an event in itself, the mag!). > > > Enjoy, > > Stephen V > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.17.36/681 - Release Date: 2/11/2007 6:50 PM > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 01:38:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: Jill Stengel Featured at www.notellmotel.org/ Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi all, Jill Stengel, swell editor of a+bend and mem and swell poet, too, is the featured poet for this valentine's week. http://www.notellmotel.org/ the first poem is at the bottom of the page--you can work your way up. there will be more each day through friday. Enjoy, david ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 02:16:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcus Bales Subject: Two Events At Gallery 324 Saturday February 24 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Two Events At Gallery 324 Saturday February 24 Saturday At Noon: Terry Provost, Wanda Sobieska, and JE Stanley will read their poems, followed by an open mike reading. Saturday at 7 pm: Celebrate the launching of "Christ Couture" Fashions, uniquely designed by Veda. When: Saturday February 24, 2007 Where: Galleria Mall, Gallery 324 1301 East 9th Street Cleveland, Ohio 44114 ENTER THROUGH PARKING GARAGE OFF LAKESIDE Time: 7 pm Admission: $10 at the door Cash Bar For more information: Veda 216/376-2624 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 16:41:35 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Glass Subject: Your Chance To Learn What Haiku Really Is MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-2022-JP Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------------------------------------------------------- Meikai University Seeks Part-Time Instructors For its English Program Job Description 1. Position: Part-time instructor (2 to 6 koma$B!G(Bs a week; one koma is for 90 minutes) 2. Openings: 2 or 3 positions 3. Course to be taught: English for communication purposes (intensive program with small classes of 15 and medium-size classes for non-English majors) 4. Term of contract: one year renewable 5. Remuneration: \23,000 to \30,000 a month for 12 months per 1koma/week 6. Start of employment: April 1, 2007 7. Qualification: a) native or near-native speakers of English b) M.A. or its equivalent 8. Application material: a) CV b) deadline: Feb. 24, 2007 c) an interview will be held in the days that will follow Send material to: Professor Masahito Watanabe Meikai University, 8 Akemi,Urayasu, Chiba $B")(B279-8550 E-mail: wata@yg.netyou.j ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 10:00:43 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anny Ballardini Subject: Re: Poetics List Welcome Message In-Reply-To: <54AA9B41BC35F34EAD02E660901D8A5A0A052BD5@TLRUSMNEAGMBX10.ERF.THOMSON.COM> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline ___Special congratulations to Amy King___ my usual congratulations to Charles Bernstein, the founder, and Nick Piombino. Due to my ignorance I partly know Lori Emerson whom I would like to thank for having helped me out patiently when I first subscribed, nor do I know Julia Bloch or Joel Kuszai. It goes without saying that to manage such a list you need an ever-present *Good Will. * Best wishes, Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche On 2/12/07, Tom W. Lewis wrote: > > >The current limits of the list are 75 messages per day, and a maximum > of > >four messages per subscriber per day; but these limits are subject to > >change withouth notice. > > 4 messages a day now?! never have the moderated > enjoyed such liberty at the hands of their moderators > (or so it would appear) > > but I'm curious (in my giddy glee) about what precisely this project's > expectations are... [bowing head to parse]: > > to support, inform, and extend > > those directions > > in poetry > > committed > > to innovations, renovations, and investigations > > of form and/or/as content > > to the questioning of received forms and styles, and > > to the creation > > of the otherwise unimagined, untried, > unexpected, improbable, and impossible. > > > Innovation, then; > questioning; > creation -- > > these the goals of this virtual turkey-shoot. > > if anyone else has thoughts, elaborations, or counter-readings of "what > this is all about," write 'em so we can all see. > > tl > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] > On Behalf Of Poetics List > Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 14:51 > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Poetics List Welcome Message > > Please note changes to the Welcome Message: > > > The Poetics List > > Sponsored by: The Electronic Poetry Center (SUNY-Buffalo/University of > Pennsylvania) and the Regan Chair (Department of English, Penn) & > Center for Program in Contemporary Writing (Penn) > > Poetics List Editor: Amy King > > Poetics List Editorial Board: > Charles Bernstein, Julia Bloch, Lori Emerson, Amy King, Joel Kuszai, > Nick Piombino > > Note: this Welcome message is also available at the EPC/@Buffalo page > http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html > > Poetics Subscription Registration (required) > poetics.list --at -- gmail.com > note our new address! > > Poetics Subscription Requests: > http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/archives/poetics.html > > Poetics Listserv Archive: > http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/archives/poetics.html > > Note that any correspondence sent to the Poetics List administration > account takes about ten days, for response; mail to this account is > checked about once per week. > > C O N T E N T S: > > 1. About the Poetics List > 2. Posting to the List > 3. Subscriptions > 4. Subscription Options > 5. To Unsubscribe > 6. Cautions > > -------------------------------------------- > > Above the world-weary horizons > New obstacles for exchange arise > Or unfold, > O ye postmasters! > > > 1. About the Poetics List > > With the preceding epigraph, the Poetics Listserv was founded by > Charles Bernstein in late 1993. Now in its fourth incarnation, the > list has over 1300 subscribers worldwide. We also have a substantial > number of nonsubscribing readers, who access the list through our web > site (see archive URL above). > > The Poetics List is not a forum for a general discussion of poetry or > for the exchange of poems. Our aim is to support, inform, and extend > those directions in poetry that are committed to innovations, > renovations, and investigations of form and/or/as content, to the > questioning of received forms and styles, and to the creation of the > otherwise unimagined, untried, unexpected, improbable, and impossible. > While we recognize that other lists may sponsor other possibilities > for exchange, we request that those participating in this forum keep > in mind the specialized and focused nature of this project and respect > our decision to operate a moderated list. The Poetics List exists to > support and encourage divergent points of view on innovative forms of > modern and contemporary poetry and poetics, and we are committed to do > what is necessary to preserve this space for such dialog. > > Due to the high number of subscribers, we no longer maintain the open > format with which the list began (at under 100 subscribers). 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The idea is to keep the list membership to those with > specific engagement related to the list's stated orientation. The > current limits of the list are 75 messages per day, and a maximum of > four messages per subscriber per day; but these limits are subject to > change withouth notice. > > In addition to being archived at through the EPC > (http://epc.buffalo.edu) and at > http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/archives/poetics.html, some posts to > Poetics (especially reviews, obituary notices, announcements, etc.) > may also become part of specific EPC subject areas. > > Note also that Roof Books published Joel Kuszai's edited collection of > the Poetics List; this is available from ROOF and also on line at the > EPC. > > > 2. Posting to the List > > The Poetics List is a moderated list. 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We define > 'flaming' as any post that resembles a personal attack or personal > insult to anyone--subscriber or not. This of course includes racist, > sexist, or other slurs as well as ad hominem arguments in which the > person rather than their work is attacked; in other words while > critique of a person's work is welcome (critical inquiry is one of the > main functions of the list), this critique cannot extend to a critique > or criticism of the person. > > The listserv is intended to be a productive communal space for > discussion and announcements; as such, subscribers who do not follow > listserv policy will be removed from the subscription roll. > > In enforcing this policy, the editors must consider sometimes > competing interests. The basis for our decisions, however, rests with > our collective judgment about the kind of space we want for the list. > > For reasons of basic security, we do not allow pseudonymous > subscriptions. All messages intended for the Poetics List should be > sent in Text-Only format, without attachments. We do not accept > HTML-formatted messages or attached files. As a general rule, keep > individual posts to 1,000 words or less. > > Please do not publish list postings without the express permission of > the author. Posting on the list is a form of publication. Copyright > for all material posted on Poetics remains with the author; material > from this list and its archive may not be reproduced without the > author's permission, beyond the standard rights accorded by "fair use" > of published materials. > > All material on the Poetics List remains the property of the authors; > before you reproduce this material, in whole or in part, we ask that > you get permission (by email is fine) from the authors. If they give > permission, then we ask only that you say that the post or posts > appeared originally on the Poetics List > (http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/welcome.html) on [give date and say:] > Used by permission of the author. > > As an outside maximum, we will accept no more than 4 messages per day > from any one subscriber. Also, given that our goal is a manageable > list (manageable both for moderators and subscribers), the list > accepts 75 or fewer messages per day, though these paramenters may be > changed at the discretion of the list moderator. > > Like all systems, the listserv will sometimes be down: if you feel > your message has been delayed or lost, *please wait at least one day > to see if it shows up*, then check the archive to be sure the message > is not posted there; if you still feel there is a problem, you may > wish to contact the editors at . > > > http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/poetics/welcome.html > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 06:48:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tarpaulin Sky Subject: READING: Jenny Boully, Jordan Davis, Douglas A. Martin, Max Winter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jenny Boully, Jordan Davis, Douglas A. Martin, & Max Winter Saturday, February 17, 2007, 2 p.m. The Four-Faced Liar, 165 West 4th Street (between 6th & 7th Ave), New York, NY Come celebrate the release of Max Winter's new book, _The Pictures_ (Tarpaulin Sky Press, 2007) and catch readings from Winter and fellow Tarpaulin Sky Press author Jenny Boully, along with the incomparable Jordan Davis and Douglas A. Martin. Mingling at 1:30. Reading at 2, followed by a book-signing. Jenny Boully is the author of _[one love affair*]_ (Tarpaulin Sky Press, 2006) and _The Body_ (Slope Editions, 2002). Her work has been anthologized in _The Best American Poetry 2002_, _Great American Prose Poems: From Poe to the Present_, and _The Next American Essay_ and has appeared in Boston Review, Seneca Review, and Conjunctions. Her _Book of Beginnings and Endings_ is forthcoming from Sarabande. Born in Thailand and reared in Texas, she has studied at Hollins University and the University of Notre Dame and is pursuing a Ph.D. at the Graduate Center of the City University of New York. She divides her time between Brooklyn and a small town in Texas. Poet and critic Jordan Davis is the author of _Million Poems Journal_ and host of The Million Poems Show, a live poetry talk show based in Manhattan at the Bowery Poetry Club. His blogs, Equanimity and Million Poems, draw more than 35,000 readers each month. His poems have appeared in Chicago Review, American Letters and Commentary, Boston Review, and, Fence, among other journals. He is a columnist for the acclaimed literary review, Constant Critic, and his reviews have appeared in Publishers Weekly, Paper, and the Village Voice. With Chris Edgar he edits The Hat, an annual literary journal. Douglas A. Martin's most recent books are _Branwell_, a novel of the Bronte brother, and a collection of stories, _They Change the Subject_. His first novel, _Outline of My Lover_, was named an International Book of the Year in the Times Literary Supplement and adapted in part by The Forsythe Company for the multimedia dance- theater piece "Kammer/Kammer." He is also the author of two collections of poetry and a co-author of _the haiku year_. In 2008, he will publish _Last Early Poems_ and a new lyric prose work, _Your Body Figured_. Max Winter is the author of _The Pictures_ (Tarpaulin Sky Press, 2007). Winner of the Fifth Annual Boston Review Poetry Contest, Winter has poems appearing recently in Free Verse, New American Writing, Ploughshares, The Paris Review, Colorado Review, Volt, The Yale Review, The Canary, Denver Quarterly, First Intensity, GutCult, TYPO, and New Young American Poets (Southern Illinois, 2000). He has published reviews in The New York Times, The Washington Post, The San Francisco Chronicle, Newsday, and BOMB, and is a Poetry Editor of Fence. About _The Pictures_: http://www.tarpaulinsky.com/Press/Winter/index.html Sparse, clear, and free of flourishes, the poems in The _Pictures_ examine war, boredom, death, love, decay, happiness, and worship through a series of moving and still images. In one poem, from a group of "moving" pictures, three soldiers bide their time in a barren landscape, awaiting destruction; in a "still" picture, a group of stones invite us to pay closer attention to them; in another still picture, a woman stands with her mouth open, fists clenched, words unimportant. Sight is unmysterious but wondrous in this book; the poems demonstrate that to look at something or to read it is to experience it, along with its attendant sadness or joy. The "pictures" collected here are communicative and profound, quick to read but long to develop. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 22:00:17 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Paul Nelson Subject: Re: Mom w/first published poem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I tried to leave a comment on your blog, with no luck, so: = Stephen,=0A=0AI tried to leave a comment on your blog, with no luck, so:=0A= =0AI read about this on the SUNY-Buffalo list and I find the whole thing de= lightful. Having just gone to L.A. for my 79 year old Aunt's Memorial Servi= ce, I can better appreciate the effort to keep a loved one around in the wi= ly crannies of cyberspace. Good going Barbara. My Aunt was named Barbara as= is my sister. I very much enjoyed the poem.=0A=0APaul Nelson=0A =0APaul E.= Nelson =0Awww.GlobalVoicesRadio.org =0Awww.SPLAB.org =0A908 I. St. N.E. #4= =0ASlaughter, WA 98002 =0A253.735.6328 or 888.735.6328=0A=0A----- Original= Message ----=0AFrom: Stephen Vincent =0ATo: POETICS@= LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=0ASent: Monday, February 12, 2007 6:53:39 PM=0ASubject= : Mom w/first published poem=0A=0Ahttp://stephenvincent.net/blog/=0A=0AFor = those with a continuing interest, a new blog entry re my almost 91-=0Ayear-= old mom's apparent, totally unintended, new career in poetry - Re her=0Ares= ponses to her recent publication in Jow Lindsay's edit of the London mag,= =0AEveryone's Cup of Tea! (Also an event in itself, the mag!).=0A=0A=0AEnj= oy, =0A=0AStephen V=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 08:25:54 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Steve Swallow on Robert Creeley MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Not simply a puff piece for his most recent recording of music with readings by Creeley, but an actual discussion of how Swallow relates to the work and the poet. http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/article.php?id=24544 One more reader of poetry who doesn't write it or teach about it. That makes nearly a dozen of us now, based on past exchanges around here anyway. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 09:35:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: L Trent Subject: New Issue of 21 Stars Review Comments: To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The fourth issue of 21 Stars Review (http://sundress.net/21stars) is up! Featuring poetry and prose from Nina Alvarez, Arlene Ang, F.J. Bergmann, Michelle Bitting, C.L. Bledsoe, Mark DeCarteret, Jennifer Gravely, Len Joy, Amanda Laughtland, Duane Locke, Kyle Minor, Alison Shaffer, and Shellie Zacharia. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 09:43:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Albany, NY Performance Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed The New York State Writers Institute invites you to the following event. Friday, February 16, 8PM at the WAMC Linda Norris Auditorium, 339 =20 Central Ave., Albany. Performance Poets Nicole Peyrafitte and Pierre Joris. Tickets $15, Call 518-465-5233, ext. 4 for reservations. To celebrate the release of their CDs The Bi-Continental Chowder and =20 Routes, Not Roots, performance artist Nicole Peyrafitte and poet =20 Pierre Joris have created a multi-media event. They will perform a =20 selection of Peyrafitte's songs and Joris' poems that are featured on =20= the new CDs. The evening will be framed by Peyrafitte's "Bi-=20 Continental Chowder" prepared, commented, simmered, and served right =20 on stage--a truly synesthetic experience that will stimulate all the =20 senses. Pyrenees-born Nicole Peyrafitte is a performance artist who =20 sings, paints, films, writes and cooks. She draws on her eclectic =20 heritage to perform songs ranging from French cabaret to jazz =20 standards and contemporary poetry. Pierre Joris is a poet, essayist, =20 translator, and anthologist whose most recent publications include =20 Poasis: Selected Poems 1986-1999 (2001), and a collection of essays, =20 A Nomad Poetics (2003). Recent translations include Lightduress =20 (2004) by Paul Celan which received the 2005 PEN Poetry Translation =20 Award. Joris teaches in the UAlbany English Dept. For more information and reservations call 518-465-5233, ext. 4, or =20 go to http://www.albany.edu/writers-inst/joris_peyrafitte.html. To see our complete list of events, go to http://www.albany.edu/=20 writers-inst/vws.html. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism,since it is the merger of state and corporate power." =97 Benito Mussolini =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D Pierre Joris 244 Elm Street Albany NY 12202 h: 518 426 0433 c: 518 225 7123 o: 518 442 40 71 Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 email: joris@albany.edu http://pierrejoris.com Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 09:02:30 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: New literary twist added to laundry cycle Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed (anyone taking part in this?...) New literary twist added to laundry cycle Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:08am ET NEW YORK, Feb 12 (Reuters Life!) - Doing the laundry has taken on a new meaning for New Yorkers who can now watch their wash and spin cycles while listening to poetry and prose. Instead of burying their head in a book or heading to the nearest coffee shop to beat the boredom of laundry, New York writer Emily Rubin has organised a series of readings called "Dirty Laundry: Loads of Prose," at laundromats in New York. "Just mixing laundry and writing seemed completely natural to me because truly in life and metaphorically as a writer, everyone has dirty laundry," said the Brooklyn native who started the series last year. She contemplated holding the readings in various neighborhood venues including shops but said a laundromat seemed "a natural fit." People can wash their dirty laundry while listening to a poem or short story or just attend the readings. During the first of the 2007 series writer Carolyn Turgeon read some of her work while people loaded the dryers and washing machines. "It just makes me feel homey and reading is just sort of part of this regular thing, if that makes sense," she said, adding that a laundromat doesn't feel as stuffy or artificial as other venues. "It feels like you're part of this natural environment," Turgeon explained. Author Marie Carter, who moved from Edinburgh, Scotland to New York in 2000, likes the idea of entertaining people in a laundromat which is not usually a center of excitement. Some of the people attending the reading felt a bit odd initially but got used to the idea. "It was a little strange, it was kind of wild," said one person. Rubin, who calls herself "Mistress of Laundry" is planning more readings at laundromats across New York and is encouraging people to come along with or without their dirty washing. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 09:30:23 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: on the telepathic nature of the social MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit __________________________________ http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com ---------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 09:37:12 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Coffey Subject: Re: Steve Swallow on Robert Creeley In-Reply-To: <45D1CA72.2010505@eskimo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline The book _Conversations with Steve Lacy_ also has many interesting discussions of how Lacy related to the poets whose texts he used in his compositions (Creeley foremost among them, but also Gysin, Taslima Nasrin, Osip Mandelstam, Anne Waldman, even Herman Melville). Always wished he would've tackled some of Emily Dickinson's poems. I think Irene Aebi would be a great person to give voice to them On 2/13/07, Herb Levy wrote: > Not simply a puff piece for his most recent recording of music with > readings by Creeley, but an actual discussion of how Swallow relates to > the work and the poet. > > http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/article.php?id=24544 > > One more reader of poetry who doesn't write it or teach about it. That > makes nearly a dozen of us now, based on past exchanges around here anyway. > -- http://hyperhypo.org/blog http://www.pftborder.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 08:16:34 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: David Jhave Johnston MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DAVID JHAVE JOHNSTON http://year01.com/jhave/SIAT_blog/meanderings/blog.html Jhave is a Canadian poet-programmer. His blog is a fascinating collection of writings, streaming videos, graphics, and other media largely concerned with language arts. Also check out his http://glia.ca site where you will find his Flash work, which is very programmerly literary media. Quite a bit of his Flash-based work combines video and text with interactive programming. ja http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 09:13:40 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amy king Subject: One Way of Getting It Out There In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Besides poems on subways, how else do we share it off the page? Poetry, images go public at Louisiana Tech [http://www.thenewsstar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2007702100319] Poetry can be hard to find in a public place unless you are at Louisiana Tech University. English professor Veronica Schuder's freshmen have taken a unique approach to the concept of service learning by displaying poetry in a major traffic zone. The students opened an exhibit of large posters Friday in Tolliver Hall sporting poetry and images compiled by a professional graphic designer. The class posted works by poets Sylvia Plath, Paul Laurence Dunbar, William Blake and Walt Whitman. Art education major Allison Reynolds said the project was aimed at trying to get poetry into the minds of people who may not have never given it a chance. "We want students to take a minute and reflect on their day," Reynolds said. "We want them to walk by (the exhibit) and stop to think about what is important to them." Reynolds said Dunbar's "We Wear the Mask" is one work students should relate to easily. "In our day-to-day lives, we put up a fraud," she said. "We go through the motions without making a real connection most days. Reminding people of what can be profound." Mechanical engineering major Stephan White said the tendency to think of Shakespeare is one reason poetry can be hard to tackle. "It's not just for the upper class," White said. "Poets we study are down-to-earth people that you can relate to." Schuder said she hopes the service aspect of the project, showing the work in a public way, will change some students' minds. The project also made her students think about poetry in a way that changed how they learned, Schuder said, and the quarter's work left her feeling closer to this class than some previously. "My goal was to bring poetry alive for my students — learning poetry shouldn't be about writing down every word that the teacher says," Schuder said. "Having to present this project to people made poetry leap out of the classroom for them." The students put in more work than they thought they did, Schuder said. Students had to sort through a list of 50 or more poems to find one they could present, she said. "It forced them to be critical of each other in a way they don't normally deal with, as well," Schuder said. The posters will hang in Tolliver Hall until mid-March. --By way of Jilly Dybka's blog (http://www.poetryhut.com/wordpress/). --------------------------------- Finding fabulous fares is fun. Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 12:11:40 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: Re: One Way of Getting It Out There In-Reply-To: <563071.8900.qm@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed i've taped up visual poems and sound scores on telphone poles, trees, mail boxes, wlls in alleys, sides f dumpeters, inside bathrooms, on backs of seats in theaters, on friends' cars, pinned or taped up on bulletin boards any old palce they have them, at construction sites, just abt any place someone might find them and enjoy, take home, deface, alter--and let the weather do its work also--creating new poems in the ongoing processes-- at some sites where boards in dumpsters etc--made paintings on them and left there--leaning against the sides-- in many places also where exposed patches of ground, made them in the dirt--and taken found objects and arranged these in grass in parks or alongside public building areas--as "concrete" "material language" poems, 3-D--shrines, beings--enigmas-- some things are signed--many not --some remian for awhile-days even few weeks-many don't-- that way, the poems have lives of their own--freed from any "officially recognized" framing-- in these lives of their own--they may be found by anyone, or find anyone themselves-- even on a bus. poems only find themslves among poeple who rides buses--not walkers, not those who ride only in cars-- and many of the poems don't even need to be "read" in a standardized way either--so many people who may not read a public poem may be able to understand them in other ways--visual, tactile-- they may not even some of them be thought of as "poems"--by people not interested in "poems"--but as something else entirely--yet recognized as a sign of a communication in their own terms--and understood in all sorts of myriad other ways-- (much like being a person--maybe known only to onself--"read" in all sorts of ways during course of a day--may stil know that they are a "poet", the poems know they are a "poem"--so not worried if "read" myriad other ways-makes life always much more interesting--) >From: amy king >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: One Way of Getting It Out There >Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 09:13:40 -0800 > >Besides poems on subways, how else do we share it off the page? > > > Poetry, images go public at Louisiana Tech >[http://www.thenewsstar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2007702100319] > > > Poetry can be hard to find in a public place unless you are at Louisiana >Tech University. > > English professor Veronica Schuder's freshmen have taken a unique >approach to the concept of service learning by displaying poetry in a major >traffic zone. > > The students opened an exhibit of large posters Friday in Tolliver Hall >sporting poetry and images compiled by a professional graphic designer. The >class posted works by poets Sylvia Plath, Paul Laurence Dunbar, William >Blake and Walt Whitman. > > Art education major Allison Reynolds said the project was aimed at >trying to get poetry into the minds of people who may not have never given >it a chance. > > "We want students to take a minute and reflect on their day," Reynolds >said. "We want them to walk by (the exhibit) and stop to think about what >is important to them." > > Reynolds said Dunbar's "We Wear the Mask" is one work students should >relate to easily. > > "In our day-to-day lives, we put up a fraud," she said. "We go through >the motions without making a real connection most days. Reminding people of >what can be profound." > > Mechanical engineering major Stephan White said the tendency to think of >Shakespeare is one reason poetry can be hard to tackle. > > "It's not just for the upper class," White said. "Poets we study are >down-to-earth people that you can relate to." > > Schuder said she hopes the service aspect of the project, showing the >work in a public way, will change some students' minds. > > The project also made her students think about poetry in a way that >changed how they learned, Schuder said, and the quarter's work left her >feeling closer to this class than some previously. > > "My goal was to bring poetry alive for my students — learning poetry >shouldn't be about writing down every word that the teacher says," Schuder >said. "Having to present this project to people made poetry leap out of the >classroom for them." > > The students put in more work than they thought they did, Schuder said. >Students had to sort through a list of 50 or more poems to find one they >could present, she said. > > "It forced them to be critical of each other in a way they don't >normally deal with, as well," Schuder said. > > The posters will hang in Tolliver Hall until mid-March. > > > > --By way of Jilly Dybka's blog (http://www.poetryhut.com/wordpress/). > > > > > > >--------------------------------- >Finding fabulous fares is fun. >Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and >hotel bargains. _________________________________________________________________ Check out all that glitters with the MSN Entertainment Guide to the Academy Awards® http://movies.msn.com/movies/oscars2007/?icid=ncoscartagline2 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 10:31:17 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Adam Fieled Subject: Steve Halle, Tom Orange on PFS Post MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Check out new work from Chicago's Steve Halle and DC's Tom Orange on Philadelphia's PFS Post: http://www.artrecess.blogspot.com "like the FBI...and the CIA....and the BBC....BB King....and Doris Day...Matt Busby, dig it, dig it, dig it, dig it..." --------------------------------- Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 19:10:00 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tim Peterson Subject: Belladonna 2/13 w Deborah Meadows & Tim Peterson Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed enjoy BELLADONNA* with Deborah Meadows & Tim Peterson Tuesday, February 13, 7PM @ Dixon Place (258 Bowery, 2nd Floor—Between Houston & Prince) Admission is $5 at the Door. Deborah Meadows has lived in Pasadena, California since 1986. She teaches in the Liberal Studies department at California State Polytechnic University, California where she has worked as a labor organizer on education equity issues, curates the Poetry and Jazz series for her students, participates in travel exchanges with writers in the campus' Cuba program, and contributed to curriculum design in the campus' interdisciplinary program. Her works of poetry include: Representing Absence (Green Integer, 2004) selected for The Gertrude Stein Poetry Award 2004; Itinerant Men (Krupskaya Press, 2004); "The 60's and 70's: from The Theory of Subjectivity in Moby-Dick" Tinfish Press (2003). Tim Peterson is the author of Since I Moved In (Chax Press, 2007). He lives in Brooklyn, NY where he edits EOAGH: A Journal of the Arts -- the newest issue, titled "Queering Language" is now available online at chax.org/eoagh/issue3/issuethree.html from The Draped Universe by Deborah Meadows surface ,the body may society obsession with textiles of Islam eighth century represented the ultimate, beyond the open doors * bare floors, marched royal spaces, baldachin Islam, of each type can be glad manuscripts, value of each type, a dictionary, such as the Book of Gifts, for the most part medieval sources of no help in matching geographical terms textiles in specific locales from Trans Figures by Tim Peterson The voice wants to turn itself into a body. It can't, though it tries hard-- it brings you flowers, to engender a meaningful relationship. It makes you coffee in the morning. Here, have a cup. See? It likes you. It makes your bed and shows you this mountain vista out the window a field of jupiters beard and beyond it the dying fields. It shows you things like the sun going down, and then here it is coming up in the hollyhocks. Don't look, you'll hurt your eyes. I want to be there for you, you never respond in those moments we touch (but they are not enough). Let me stroke your hair once more, here, and again here. The voice is growing distant now, it is fading like the sun fades and explodes in strands of parti-colored fibers you will never be able to see. Upcoming Belladonna* Events: 3/13/07 Maureen Owen & Patricia Spears Jones 4/10/07 Rebecca Brown & Anna Moschovakis 5/8/07 Claudia Rankine & Jocelyn Saidenberg Founded as a reading series at a women¹s radical bookstore in 1999, Belladonna* is a feminist avant-garde event and publication series that promotes the work of women writers who are adventurous, politically involved, multi-form, multicultural, multi-gendered, unpredictable, dangerous with language (to the death machinery). In its eight year history, Belladonna* has featured such writers as Julie Patton, kari edwards, Leslie Scalapino, Alice Notley, Erica Hunt, Fanny Howe, Mei-mei Berssenbrugge, Cecilia Vicuña, Latasha Natasha Nevada Diggs, Camille Roy, Nicole Brossard, Abigail Child, Norma Cole, Lydia Davis, Gail Scott, Renee Gladman, Rachel Blau Duplessis, Marcella Durand and Lila Zemborain along with nearly 100 other experimental and hybrid women writers. The curators promote work that is explicitly experimental, connects with other art forms, and is political/critical in content. Alongside the readings, Belladonna* supports its artists by publishing commemorative chaplets of their work on the night of the event. Please contact us (Erica Kaufman, Rachel Levitsky, Sina Queyras et al) at belladonnaseries@yahoo.com to receive a catalog and be placed on our list. Dixon Place, a home for performing and literary artists, is dedicated to supporting the creative process by presenting original works of theater, dance and literature at various stages of development. An artistic laboratory with an audience, we serve as a safety net, enabling artists to present challenging and questioning work that pushes the limits of artistic expression. With a warm, nurturing atmosphere that encourages and inspires artists of all stripes and persuasions, we place special emphasis on the needs of women, people of color, youth, seniors and lesbian/gay artists. Dixon Place is a local haven for creativity as well as an international model for the open exploration of the process of creation. Please visit www.dixonplace.org for more information *deadly nightshade, a cardiac and respiratory stimulant, having purplish-red flowers and black berries Belladonna* readings happen monthly between September and June. We are grateful for funding by Poets and Writers, CLMP, NYSCA, and Dixon Place. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 10:20:56 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: Mom w/first published poem In-Reply-To: <00cd01c74f30$aaeb2470$0401a8c0@Martha> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT hi stephen. my mom's 88 and was a wonderful sculptor (well, i guess still is but isn't making anything anymore), so i was very touched by this little peice with your mom. i love the way she uses words when she speaks too. lucky you to be hanging out still with such a mom. lucky me too. :-) best, gabe On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, Martha Deed wrote: > Dear Stephen-- > > This is both powerful and touching. I really liked the originality of > your mother's words, too, both in the poem and in her discussion with > you of her poem -- her connection to the poem. And -- your blog entry > is really an instance of image and text reinforcing one another. > > What she produces, what you facilitate, takes one beyond some of the > dichotomies we often think about here. > > I hope that you continue to announce her progress here. > > Martha > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Stephen Vincent" > To: > Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 9:53 PM > Subject: Mom w/first published poem > > > > http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > > > > For those with a continuing interest, a new blog entry re my almost 91- > > year-old mom's apparent, totally unintended, new career in poetry - Re her > > responses to her recent publication in Jow Lindsay's edit of the London > mag, > > Everyone's Cup of Tea! (Also an event in itself, the mag!). > > > > > > Enjoy, > > > > Stephen V > > > > > > -- > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.17.36/681 - Release Date: 2/11/2007 > 6:50 PM > > > > > gabrielle welford welford@hawaii.edu Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.595 / Virus Database: 378 - Release Date: 2/25/2004 wilhelm reich anarcho-syndicalism gut/heart/head/earth ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 17:25:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: paolo javier Subject: Crossing the Border Reading/Panel @ NYU, March 2nd, 6 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dear All: I'll be taking part in a reading/panel on Canada-U.S. poetries with fellow North American scribes Adeena Karasick & AF Moritz. Novelist Tamaz Dobozy will moderate. Deets below. It's an open event, but I do believe you need to rsvp. Hope you do, & to see you there! best, Paolo -- *Crossing the Border: North American Bi-National Poetics* Friday, March 2, 6-8 pm New York University Graduate Languages and Arts Building 19 University Place, First Floor RSVP: (212) 596-1680 Email: *rsvp@uppernorthside.org* This Canadian-American literature/poetry event will feature readings and an in-depth panel discussion on comparative aesthetics, Canada-U.S. publishing industry differences, and raising the profile of Canadian literature in the U.S. market. Moderator and Fulbright Chair Tamas Dobozy (Nanaimo, British Columbia) will lead a stimulating discussion with poets A.F. Moritz (University of Toronto), Paolo Javier (New York/Vancouver), and Adeena Karsick (Winnipeg). -- http://blog.myspace.com/paolojavier http://www.2ndavepoetry.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 22:12:23 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: blacksox@ATT.NET Subject: Not getting through MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hey for some reason i have not been able to get messages posted? Can this be corected? Thanks Russ Golata living in the poetic wastelands of Central florida ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 17:38:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: Mom w/first published poem Comments: To: Martha Deed In-Reply-To: <00cd01c74f30$aaeb2470$0401a8c0@Martha> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I clicked but nothing happened--another way to get the poem? On 2/13/07 12:34 AM, "Martha Deed" wrote: > Dear Stephen-- > > This is both powerful and touching. I really liked the originality of your > mother's words, too, both in the poem and in her discussion with you of her > poem -- her connection to the poem. And -- your blog entry is really an > instance of image and text reinforcing one another. > > What she produces, what you facilitate, takes one beyond some of the > dichotomies we often think about here. > > I hope that you continue to announce her progress here. > > Martha > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Stephen Vincent" > To: > Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 9:53 PM > Subject: Mom w/first published poem > > >> http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ >> >> For those with a continuing interest, a new blog entry re my almost 91- >> year-old mom's apparent, totally unintended, new career in poetry - Re her >> responses to her recent publication in Jow Lindsay's edit of the London > mag, >> Everyone's Cup of Tea! (Also an event in itself, the mag!). >> >> >> Enjoy, >> >> Stephen V >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.17.36/681 - Release Date: 2/11/2007 > 6:50 PM >> >> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 18:01:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jena Osman Subject: visiting writer position MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Temple University. Visiting writer, Creative Writing-poetry. One semester position in Temple University's Creative Writing Program for Spring 2008. Applicants should have a deep commitment to writing & be willing to teach graduate poetry workshops and special topics in creative writing. Visiting writer will also be expected to perform service connected to the Creative Writing program such as mentoring students, contributing to the Poets and Writers Series, and giving a presentation of creative or critical work to the larger Temple community. MFA or PhD in creative writing or the equivalent, teaching experience & publication record required. Teaching load is 2 courses for the semester; salary commensurate to qualifications, plus benefits. Send letter of interest, c.v., & letters of recommendation to: Search Committee, Creative Writing Program/English Department, 10th floor Anderson Hall, Temple University, 1114 W. Berks St., Philadelphia, PA 19122-6090. Applications must be received no later than April 1, 2007. AA/EOE If you have questions, feel free to send me a message at josman@temple.edu Jena Osman Associate Professor of English Director, Creative Writing Program Temple University 215.204.3014 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 15:26:22 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Cati Porter Subject: New to the list / Call for submissions In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi all. I'm new to this list, so I thought I'd take a moment to introduce myself and then pass along my call for submissions. My name is Cati Porter. I live in southern California, and am the mother of two small boys. I'm primarily a poet, though I've also published freelance articles and book reviews. I'm also founder and editor of Poemeleon: A Journal of Poetry (www.poemeleon.org), and contributing editor for Babel, the webzine for the International Cities of Refuge Network (www.ICORN.org). I also belong to Wompo (women's poetry listserv), and as I've been receiving Poetics' e-mails over the past couple of days, I couldn't help but notice that there's some crossover, so some of you might already know me. I probably won't post a whole lot -- my time is pretty divided between the journals and my kids -- but I'm looking forward to joining in the discussion as time permits. As for my call for submissions, I'm looking right now for poems in form -- traditional verse forms as well as poems that use form in innovative ways -- for a Poemeleon issue that will launch in June. Previously published is fine as long as you retain all rights and the poems have never before appeared online. If you have any questions, feel free to backchannel me. Thanks! Cati ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 19:29:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Didi Menendez Subject: Re: New to the list / Call for submissions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello -=20 I too am new to the list although I am not new at all. My name is Didi Menendez. I don't have a call for submissions other than the regular call for = submissions although that is not new either. Thank you. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Cati Porter=20 To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU=20 Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 6:26 PM Subject: New to the list / Call for submissions Hi all. =20 I'm new to this list, so I thought I'd take a moment to introduce = myself and then pass along my call for submissions. =20 My name is Cati Porter. I live in southern California, and am the = mother of two small boys. I'm primarily a poet, though I've also = published freelance articles and book reviews. I'm also founder and = editor of Poemeleon: A Journal of Poetry = (www.poemeleon.org), and contributing editor = for Babel, the webzine for the International Cities of Refuge Network = (www.ICORN.org). I also belong to Wompo (women's = poetry listserv), and as I've been receiving Poetics' e-mails over the = past couple of days, I couldn't help but notice that there's some = crossover, so some of you might already know me. I probably won't post a = whole lot -- my time is pretty divided between the journals and my kids = -- but I'm looking forward to joining in the discussion as time permits. = =20 As for my call for submissions, I'm looking right now for poems in = form -- traditional verse forms as well as poems that use form in = innovative ways -- for a Poemeleon issue that will launch in June. = Previously published is fine as long as you retain all rights and the = poems have never before appeared online.=20 =20 If you have any questions, feel free to backchannel me.=20 =20 Thanks! =20 Cati=20 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 19:26:34 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Simon DeDeo Subject: rhubarb is susan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed New material up on the poem-review blog rhubarb is susan, covering Nancy Kuhl's new book, A. Van Jordan's DC Comics commedia dell'Arte, and Kimberly Truitt's resurrection of 3rd century flarf: http://rhubarbissusan.blogspot.com/2007/02/kimberly-truitt-female-cento.html http://rhubarbissusan.blogspot.com/2007/02/nancy-kuhl-open-house.html http://rhubarbissusan.blogspot.com/2007/02/van-jordan-superposition-of-atom.html http://rhubarbissusan.blogspot.com/ Thanks for tuning in, and do join the conversation. Snowed in in Chicago, Simon ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 19:52:03 -0600 Reply-To: dgodston@sbcglobal.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Godston Subject: Swallow & Hersch In-Reply-To: <750c78460702130737n1b934eb8p76ac3a08735bf7d8@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Swallow & Creeley's "So There" CD is amazing. Here's an excellent interview with pianist/composer Fred Hersch, regarding his "Leaves of Grass" project: http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/article.php?id=17230. -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Dan Coffey Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 9:37 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Steve Swallow on Robert Creeley The book _Conversations with Steve Lacy_ also has many interesting discussions of how Lacy related to the poets whose texts he used in his compositions (Creeley foremost among them, but also Gysin, Taslima Nasrin, Osip Mandelstam, Anne Waldman, even Herman Melville). Always wished he would've tackled some of Emily Dickinson's poems. I think Irene Aebi would be a great person to give voice to them On 2/13/07, Herb Levy wrote: > Not simply a puff piece for his most recent recording of music with > readings by Creeley, but an actual discussion of how Swallow relates to > the work and the poet. > > http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/article.php?id=24544 > > One more reader of poetry who doesn't write it or teach about it. That > makes nearly a dozen of us now, based on past exchanges around here anyway. > -- http://hyperhypo.org/blog http://www.pftborder.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 21:37:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: Belladonna 2/13 w Deborah Meadows & Tim Peterson In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable hope it was ablast. love r On 2/13/07 2:10 PM, "Tim Peterson" wrote: > enjoy >=20 > BELLADONNA* >=20 > with >=20 > Deborah Meadows & Tim Peterson >=20 > Tuesday, February 13, 7PM > @ Dixon Place (258 Bowery, 2nd Floor=97Between Houston & Prince) > Admission is $5 at the Door. >=20 > Deborah Meadows has lived in Pasadena, California since 1986. She teaches= in > the Liberal Studies department at California State Polytechnic University= , > California where she has worked as a labor organizer on education equity > issues, curates the Poetry and Jazz series for her students, participates= in > travel exchanges with writers in the campus' Cuba program, and contribute= d > to curriculum design in the campus' interdisciplinary program. Her works= of > poetry include: Representing Absence (Green Integer, 2004) selected for > The Gertrude Stein Poetry Award 2004; Itinerant Men (Krupskaya Press, 200= 4); > "The 60's and 70's: from The Theory of Subjectivity in Moby-Dick" Tinfi= sh > Press (2003). >=20 > Tim Peterson is the author of Since I Moved In (Chax Press, 2007). He liv= es > in Brooklyn, NY where he edits EOAGH: A Journal of the Arts -- the newest > issue, titled "Queering Language" is now available online at > chax.org/eoagh/issue3/issuethree.html >=20 > from The Draped Universe by Deborah Meadows >=20 > surface > ,the body >=20 > may >=20 > society >=20 > obsession with textiles > of Islam eighth century >=20 >=20 > represented the ultimate, beyond the open doors >=20 > * >=20 > bare floors, marched royal spaces, baldachin >=20 > Islam, of each type can be glad >=20 > manuscripts, value of each type, a dictionary, such > as the Book of Gifts, for the most part medieval sources > of no help in matching geographical terms > textiles in specific locales >=20 > from Trans Figures by Tim Peterson >=20 > The voice wants to turn itself into a body. > It can't, though it tries hard-- > it brings you flowers, to engender a meaningful > relationship. It makes you coffee in the morning. > Here, have a cup. > See? It likes you. It makes your bed > and shows you this mountain vista out the window > a field of jupiters beard and beyond it > the dying fields. It shows you things like the sun > going down, and then here it is coming up in the hollyhocks. > Don't look, you'll hurt your eyes. I want > to be there for you, you never respond > in those moments we touch (but they are not enough). > Let me stroke your hair once more, here, > and again here. The voice is growing distant > now, it is fading like the sun fades > and explodes in strands of parti-colored fibers > you will never be able to see. >=20 > Upcoming Belladonna* Events: > 3/13/07 Maureen Owen & Patricia Spears Jones > 4/10/07 Rebecca Brown & Anna Moschovakis > 5/8/07 Claudia Rankine & Jocelyn Saidenberg >=20 > Founded as a reading series at a women=B9s radical bookstore in 1999, > Belladonna* is a feminist avant-garde event and publication series that > promotes the work of women writers who are adventurous, politically > involved, multi-form, multicultural, multi-gendered, unpredictable, > dangerous with language (to the death machinery). In its eight year histo= ry, > Belladonna* has featured such writers as Julie Patton, kari edwards, Lesl= ie > Scalapino, Alice Notley, Erica Hunt, Fanny Howe, Mei-mei Berssenbrugge, > Cecilia Vicu=F1a, Latasha Natasha Nevada Diggs, Camille Roy, Nicole Brossar= d, > Abigail Child, Norma Cole, Lydia Davis, Gail Scott, Renee Gladman, Rachel > Blau Duplessis, Marcella Durand and Lila Zemborain along with nearly 100 > other experimental and hybrid women writers. The curators promote work th= at > is explicitly experimental, connects with other art forms, and is > political/critical in content. Alongside the readings, Belladonna* suppor= ts > its artists by publishing commemorative chaplets of their work on the nig= ht > of the event. Please contact us (Erica Kaufman, Rachel Levitsky, Sina > Queyras et al) at belladonnaseries@yahoo.com to receive a catalog and be > placed on our list. >=20 > Dixon Place, a home for performing and literary artists, is dedicated to > supporting the creative process by presenting original works of theater, > dance and literature at various stages of development. An artistic > laboratory with an audience, we serve as a safety net, enabling artists t= o > present challenging and questioning work that pushes the limits of artist= ic > expression. With a warm, nurturing atmosphere that encourages and inspire= s > artists of all stripes and persuasions, we place special emphasis on the > needs of women, people of color, youth, seniors and lesbian/gay artists. > Dixon Place is a local haven for creativity as well as an international > model for the open exploration of the process of creation. Please visit > www.dixonplace.org for more information >=20 > *deadly nightshade, a cardiac and respiratory stimulant, having purplish-= red > flowers and black berries > Belladonna* readings happen monthly between September and June. We are > grateful for funding by Poets and Writers, CLMP, NYSCA, and Dixon Place. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 19:03:00 -0800 Reply-To: rsillima@yahoo.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Silliman's Blog Comments: To: Brit-po , New Po , UK Poetry , Ann White MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ RECENT POSTS ROVA: Orkestrova plays Coltrane My Angie Dickinson by Michael Magee (a classic of flarf) Concerning the health of Frank Sherlock Listening to the vowels in the poetry of Rae Armantrout Unveiling / Marianne Moore by John Taggart The spiritual poetics of Rae Armantrout on reaching 1,000,000 visits on this blog Next Life by Rae Armantrout Tell them Molly sent you Volver – a film with women in every major role May Day – Robert Kelly and the question of poems vs. poetry Kenny Goldsmith writes a blog on uncreative writing for Poetry Magazine! Babel and the ensemble film of globalization Experimental Form and Issues of Accessibility (Susanne Dyckman, Rusty Morrison, Maxine Chernoff, Paul Hoover, and Jaime Robles) Daisy Fried should win the National Book Critics Circle Award by acclamation http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 19:03:01 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: Fwd: Nautilus Book Awards - Final Call for Entries - Deadline Feb. 15 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi. I just got this via e-mail and thought it was freaky. Reminds me of the DIY Book Awards (http://www.diyconvention.com) annually here in LA (entry fee, who knows or cares who wins). All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com ** NAUTILUS BOOK AWARDS - FINAL ENTRY DEADLINE FEBRUARY 15th ** Announcing the sixth annual Nautilus Book Awards, recognizing literary contributions to spiritual growth, conscious living, and positive social change. This prestigious awards contest was suspended in 2005 but is back this year to reward and promote books that change people's lives and help heal our planet. Nautilus Book Awards 2007 will accept books copyrighted or released in 2005 or 2006, in 20 categories (see list below). Final Deadline: Online entries must be completed by midnight on February 15, 2007. Mailed entries must be postmarked by February 15, 2007. Guidelines and entry form available at . In partnership with Marilyn McGuire & Associates (former head of NAPRA, the New Age book trade association and review journal), we proudly announce the sixth annual Nautilus Book Awards, honoring books that contribute to our society's awareness and well-being, and that embrace spiritual and ecological values such as compassion, sustainability, simplicity, and global peace. With today's mass global communication, political unrest, and religious and secular fanaticism all growing at an alarming rate, the phrase, "Changing the World One Book at a Time" is more meaningful than ever before. Enter your world-changing titles in Nautilus Book Awards 2007. Nautilus Book Awards winners and finalists will be announced in a multi-page, full-color spread in the June issue of EVOLVE! - the publication of New Leaf Distributing Company designed to introduce new and exciting books, music, spoken audio and video titles to the Body-Mind-Spirit community. Winning books will also be exhibited at Book Expo America in New York in June in a special "Nautilus Book Awards Showcase." Visit the Nautilus Book Awards website at for background information. Downloadable guidelines/entry form and secure online entry are both available at < http://www.independentpublisher.com/nautilus>. 2007 Nautilus Book Awards categories: 1 Animals/Nature 2 Art/Specialty/Gift 3 Business/Leadership 4 Cosmology/New Science 5 Ecology/Environment 6 Food/Cooking/Nutrition 7 Grieving/Death & Dying 8 Health & Healing 9 Inspirational/Motivational 10 Memoir/Personal Journey 11 Parenting/Family 12 Relationships/Men & Women's Issues 13 Self-Help/Psychology 14 Social Change/Current Events/Activism 15 Spirituality/Religion 16 Yoga/Massage/Body Movement 17 Adult Visionary Fiction 18 Young Adult Visionary Fiction/Non-Fiction 19 Children's Illustrated 20 Children's Non-Fiction Questions? Contact: Marilyn McGuire - marilyn@marilynmcguire.com Jim Barnes - jimb@bookpublishing.com / ph: 1-800-644-0133 x.1011 ============================================ Out of fairness, we are delivering this message to every independent publisher with a registered 2006 copyright, and our intent is to keep you informed about a legitimate book marketing opportunity. However, if you wish to gracefully opt-out of future communications from JGI or Independent Publisher, send your request to remove@bookpublishing.com with the word "remove" in the subject line. -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 20:50:31 -0800 Reply-To: ishaq1824@shaw.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: ishaq arashi Organization: planatation13 Subject: Condi Rice Raps MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0f2dHJ6A18 http://www.publicenemy.com/pb/viewtopic.php?t=35968 ___ Stay Strong -"I testified/My mama cried/Black people died/When the other man lied" -- chuck d "Be a friend to the oppressed and an enemy to the oppressor" --Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib (as) "They want to see us breathless. We will not be. They want to see us tired. We refuse to be. They want to see what our strength is. We will not show it in advance. We will continuously surprise them." -- Julia Wright "We restate our commitment to the peace process. But we will not submit to a process of humiliation." --patrick o'neil "...we have the responsibility to make no deal with the oppressor" --harry belafonte "...these people generate wars in Asia and Africa,...These are the people who, in the last century, caused several devastating wars. In one world war alone, they killed over 60 million people.... In the near future, Allah willing, we will put you to trial in courts established by the peoples...."-- mahmoud ahmadinejad http://www.sidebrow.net/2006/a047braithwaite.php ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 23:42:08 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Laura Winton Subject: Re: New literary twist added to laundry cycle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I used to organize poetry readings at a little run down laundro at 24th & Lyndale next to Muddy Waters in Minneapolis. We called in Coin Op Poetry. The acoustics in that place were great. I told people to wear their "laundry clothes" -- those beat up old things, sweats, housedresses, etc. that you only wear while you're doing laundry. When I got on the bus with my big duffle bag and in my "laundry clothes" I think people thought I was homeless. But it does keep people from sitting by you. But I digress. It was hilariously fun, but we only did about 4 months I think and then the place shut down. Now it's a consignment/used/hipster clothing store. Damn. I need to start that back up. -----Original Message----- From: mIEKAL aND [mailto:dtv@MWT.NET] Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 9:03 AM Subject: New literary twist added to laundry cycle (anyone taking part in this?...) New literary twist added to laundry cycle Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:08am ET NEW YORK, Feb 12 (Reuters Life!) - Doing the laundry has taken on a new meaning for New Yorkers who can now watch their wash and spin cycles while listening to poetry and prose. Instead of burying their head in a book or heading to the nearest coffee shop to beat the boredom of laundry, New York writer Emily Rubin has organised a series of readings called "Dirty Laundry: Loads of Prose," at laundromats in New York. "Just mixing laundry and writing seemed completely natural to me because truly in life and metaphorically as a writer, everyone has dirty laundry," said the Brooklyn native who started the series last year. She contemplated holding the readings in various neighborhood venues including shops but said a laundromat seemed "a natural fit." People can wash their dirty laundry while listening to a poem or short story or just attend the readings. During the first of the 2007 series writer Carolyn Turgeon read some of her work while people loaded the dryers and washing machines. "It just makes me feel homey and reading is just sort of part of this regular thing, if that makes sense," she said, adding that a laundromat doesn't feel as stuffy or artificial as other venues. "It feels like you're part of this natural environment," Turgeon explained. Author Marie Carter, who moved from Edinburgh, Scotland to New York in 2000, likes the idea of entertaining people in a laundromat which is not usually a center of excitement. Some of the people attending the reading felt a bit odd initially but got used to the idea. "It was a little strange, it was kind of wild," said one person. Rubin, who calls herself "Mistress of Laundry" is planning more readings at laundromats across New York and is encouraging people to come along with or without their dirty washing. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 22:29:02 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: New Tom Raworth, Caller and Other Pieces, from Edge Books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit New from Edge Books: CALLER AND OTHER PIECES by Tom Raworth 48 pgs, perfectbound, cover by the author $9.00 ($12.50 retail) Caller and Other Pieces is Raworth's first collection since his Collected Poems of 2003. Comprised of 14 pieces with the long poem "Caller" at its center, this book evinces a striking formal and tonal variety-- from the classic Raworth rhythmic and roving perceptual matrix, to the comedic one-liner, to the parodic end-rhyme, the visual, and even a bit of nouveau-zaum. Caller and Other Pieces again demonstrates that Tom Raworth's accomplishment is essential to the poetry of our time. Paypal is now available at aerialedge.com Go to Caller and Other Pieces: http://aerialedge.com/caller.htm Or send $9 payable to Aerial/Edge to POBox 25642, Washington, DC 20007. Many of our titles receive web discounts: Some Notes on my Programming, Anselm Berrigan, $14 (regularly $15) Once Upon A Neoliberal Rocket Badge, Jules Boykoff, $12 (regularly $14) Cipher/Civilian, Leslie Bumstead, $12 (regularly $14) American Whatever, Tim Davis, $12 (regularly $14) Metropolis XXX, Robert Fitterman, $12 (regularly $14) Dovecote, Heather Fuller, $12 (regularly $14) The Sense Record and other poems, Jennifer Moxley, $12.50 (regularly $14) interval, Kaia Sand, $12 (regularly $14) Haze, Mark Wallace, $12.50 (regularly $14) www.aerialedge.com Also new from Edge: Ladies Love Outlaws, Buck Downs, 24 pages, $5 Go to: http://aerialedge.com/ladies.htm All prices postpaid. Thanks for your support! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 01:57:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: A 40th Birthday Celebration for Kurt Cobain Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable please forward --------------------- Boog City's Classic Albums Live presents =20 A 40th Birthday Celebration for Kurt Cobain =20 Tues. Feb. 20, 7:00 p.m., $8 =20 Cakeshop 152 Ludlow St. NYC =20 With all three Nirvana studio albums =20 =8BBleach, Nevermind, and In Utero=8B =20 performed live by =20 Daouets The Domestics Dibson T. Hoffweiler Jeffrey Lewis Limp Richard The Marianne Pillsburys The Olga Gogolas Renminbi Schwervon The Sparrows The Trouble Dolls Genan Zilkha =20 Hosted by Boog City editor and publisher David Kirschenbaum =20 Directions: F/V to Second Ave.; F to Delancey St.; J/M/Z to Essex St. Venue is between Stanton and Rivington streets. =20 For further information: 212-842-BOOG(2664), 212-253-0036, editor@boogcity.com, or http://www.cake-shop.com/ =20 Musical acts=B9 bios and websites follow show running order =20 *Bleach* =20 The Olga Gogolas 1. Blew 2. Floyd the Barber 3. About a Girl =20 Limp Richard 4. School 5. Love Buzz 6. Paper Cuts =20 The Olga Gogolas 7. Negative Creep 8. Scoff 9. Swap Meet =20 Jeffrey Lewis 10. Mr. Moustache 11. Sifting 12. Big Cheese =20 Marianne Pillsbury and The Song Hoes 13. Downer =20 *Nevermind* =20 1. Smells Like Teen Spirit 2. In Bloom =20 Schwervon 3. Come as You Are 4. Breed 5. Lithium =20 The Trouble Dolls 6. Polly 7. Territorial Pissings 8. Drain You =20 Genan Zilkha 9. Lounge Act 10. Stay Away 11. On a Plain =20 Dibson T. Hoffweiler 12. Something In The Way Endless, Nameless =20 *In Utero* =20 The Domestics 1. Serve The Servants 2. Scentless Apprentice 3. Heart-Shaped Box =20 Renminbi 4. Rape Me 5. Frances Farmer Will Have Her Revenge On Seattle 6. Dumb =20 Daouets 7. Very Ape 8. Milk It 9. Pennyroyal Tea =20 The Sparrows 10. Radio Friendly Unit Shifter 11. tourette's 12. All Apologies =20 =20 Bios: =20 *Daouets http://www.myspace.com/daouets DAOUETS is a mini-supergroup devised by three musicians who, as tireless collaborators in New York, wanted a little space for their solo material to breathe. Switching off instruments, songwriters, and moods with ease, the group draws on its diverse musical heritage and the diverse talents of its members. =20 *The Domestics http://www.thedomestics.com/ During a brief stint as an A&R assistant, Alina Moscovitz (ex-Bionic Finger= ) spent her days listening to piles of less-than-stellar demos. She decided she could do better, so she left the corporate world and returned to songwriting. She then hooked up with music supervisor and drummer Eric Shaw (fresh from the break-up of Conquistador which featured Sam Endicott of The Bravery). They soon lured Evan Silverman (ex-Rosenbergs) away from his jazz bass lessons in Paris and gigs at the Rainbow Room back to the world of rock.=20 As a trio, The Domestics morphed into a potent combination of blazing pop-punk energy, sickeningly catchy hooks, and lyrics that have a sharp wit and intelligence seldom heard inside of a three-minute song. If Debbie Harr= y shoved her way onstage during a Green Day show, the result might sound something like this. Besides constantly playing live shows, the Brooklyn-based band wrote the closing credits song, "Girl I Never Kissed" for the film The D Word, "Anorexic Love Song" appears on the X-Girls DVD and "Fire Hazard" was included in the "Say It Don't Spray It" compilation CD packaged with the Warped Tour DVD. The band has participated in MEANY Fest, International Pop Overthrow and LadyfestEast festivals. The Domestics are currently recording a full-length album. =20 *Dibson T. Hoffweiler http://dibson.net/ http://www.myspace.com/dibson/ The latest in a long line of quirky anti-folk ingenues, including Beck, Ada= m Green and Jeffrey Lewis, Dibs applies that time-honored tradition of off-beat songwriting to his own private world of sugar factories, laundry baskets and ducks. With a low voice, both sweet and deadpan, and a guitar-style both virtuosic and sloppy, Dibson Hoffweiler carves out a spac= e of compassion and intelligence in a landscape of boring love songs and thinly-veiled songwriterly misogyny. =20 Known for his work in anti-folk flagship bands Cheese On Bread, Huggabroomstik and Urban Barnyard, Dibs began his cultural life as an anonymous Moldy Peaches fan. But, after a stint working the soundboard at the Sidewalk Cafe, and two years generating buzz with his old band, Dibs & Sara, this Jersey boy established himself as a musical force in his own right. After several months touring Europe and North America, Dibs has proved (to himself, and to others) that his bizarre, ramshackle aesthetic i= s palatable outside the freaky comfort zone of New York anti-folk. =20 *Jeffrey Lewis http://www.thejeffreylewissite.com/ Jeffrey Lewis is a New York City born-and-bred comic book artist as well as being a local antifolk staple; with or without his band he performs his unique mix of lo-fi folk, sci-fi punk & hand-illustrated "low-budget videos= " regularly around the United States and Europe. As of 2007 he has three albums out on the venerable indie label Rough Trade and his most recent comic book series "Fuff" is up to issue #5. =20 *Limp Richard http://www.breedingground.com/ Limp Richard (tonight without his backing band, The Disappointments) is wrapping up recording of a new LP at Olive Juice. By the time it's released, however, it's probably going to have a completely different name. Just feeling ornery. =20 *Marianne Pillsbury and The Song Hoes http://www.mariannepillsbury.com/ Maine native Marianne Pillsbury writes pop-rock songs with cleverly-crafted= , hook-laden melodies and brash, witty, tongue-in-cheek lyrics. Released in 2004, her debut album The Wrong Marianne has received enthusiastic reviews from The New York Times, Time Out New York, The Boston Herald and The San Francisco Chronicle and elicited comparisons to the best work of Liz Phair, Juliana Hatfield and Jill Sobule. The album was named a Top 12 DIY Pick in Performing Songwriter Magazine. The song "Boo Hoo" won Best Alt/Rock Song i= n The Great American Song Contest 2004 and was also selected for inclusion on ROCKRGRL magazine's Discoveries 2005 compilation CD. =20 *The Olga Gogolas The itinerant and magisterial Olga Gogolas feature Wayne Waverly on guitar and vocals, and James Keepnews on bass-synth-noise watch. For this set, the OG's plan to completely demolish Cobain's original arrangements on six tracks from Bleach, only to resurrect them like so many false grunge deitie= s who stank of junk. =20 *Renminbi http://www.renminbinyc.com/ http://www.myspace.com/renminbi Definitely not for the faint-hearted, we combine stripped-down punk basics with ass-shaking keyboard grooves and apocalyptic build-ups. Someone else said it best: "Imagine Polvo fronted by Kim Gordon and you might have a sense of NYC trio Renminbi's sound. =8A Pitting frenetic drumbeats against postrock keyboards and angular guitar, Renminbi retain all the concision without losing an ounce of urgency.=B2 =20 *Schwervon! http://www.olivejuicemusic.com/schwervon.html http://www.myspace.com/schwervon Schwervon! Is a two-piece rock band. Nan and Matt have been a couple longer than they have been a band. Their relationship influences their art. Their art influences their relationship. They are two birds of a different feather. You might say one flies and one rolls and they meet in the middle with two halves of the worm. They are a collaboration. Is one Sonny and one Cher? Is one a pop lover and one a noise lover? Why do they both love food so much? Why are they obsessed with their cat Gummo? =20 *The Sparrows http://myspace.com/rachelandrew Andrew Phillip Tipton met Rachel Talentino in Savannah while working at The Gap. A common love for catchy melodies, Carole King, and boys led them to Brooklyn. As The Sparrows, Andrew and Rachel make up the cutest anti-folk duo around! Simple and lovely. =20 *The Trouble Dolls http://www.troubledolls.net/ Trouble Dolls are Cheri, Matty, and Chris. They play pop music. They are from Brooklyn. They do not smoke. Their album "Sticky" is available on Half a Cow Records. They thank you for coming to see them play. =20 *Genan Zilkha http://www.myspace.com/genanisfabulous Genan Zilkha, guitar/vocals, was a classically trained pianist until she found that she had a taste of rock and roll. Since that didn't work out, sh= e now spends her time writing folk songs with titles such as "I Think I Might Be Food Poisoning (But it could also be love)" and "I Know What Will Make You Not A Dyke." Genan is also known for her unique takes on Britney Spears songs, in particular her version of Britney's version of the Bobby Brown song "My Prerogative." She has performed at the Knitting Factory, as well a= s at venues throughout Rhode Island and Binghamton, NY. =20 ---- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://boogcityevents.blogspot.com/ T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 02:03:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jUStin!katKO Subject: Re: Mom w/first published poem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline dear list the magazine in which Stephen's mom's poem was published - "Everyone's Cup of Tea #1" - is issue 5 of the Bad Press Serials. If you don't know about the Serials, then u must familiarize yourself. It's an excellent emerging run of a journal - not only because the poems in them are brilliant - but because of the Miscellany at the back of each issue. The Miscellany is a chronological record of what's happening in poetry and politics, providing an Essential History of information regarding readings / book releases / deaths / births / continuations / news items. But more importantly, it collects discourse from blogs, lists and the editors on particularly significant events or texts. It's a really useful gathering of discourse and poetry information. if you'd like copies, the best way is probably to write Jow Lindsay, one of the editors: . the journal's co-edited by Marianne Morris and Jonathan Stevenson. PDFs of the 1st and 2nd issues are available at http://badpress.infinology.net/ Also - each issue of the Serials is a nominal first issue of a 'new journal', so in order they go like this: - Bad Press Serials Version 1: He's Asked For Size Ten Arial On This One & It Goes Over the Edge A Bit BUt If It's Size Ten Arial He Wnats It's Size Ten Arial He's Getting - #1 - Bad Press Serials Version 2: Verfassungspatriotisthmus - #1 - Bad Press Serials Version 3: Can We Have Our Bell Back - #1 - Bad Press Serials Version 4: Eyes Monthly - #1 - Bad Press Serials Version 5: Everyone's Cup of Tea - #1 the provocation is perhaps that different editorial collectives should edit these journals' 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc issues. and i'm intending this email as an invitation for someone to actually do that. such an action would be exciting and easily recognizable as Responsible. Bad Press Serials! Subscribe to this journal! Somebody publish an issue 2! x justin katko ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 10:16:56 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dubravka Djuric Subject: march in belgrade cultural center MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable IF SOMEONE FROM THE PEOPLE IN THIS LIST IS OR WILL BE IN EUROPE ARROUND = MARCH 20, AND COULD AFFORD TO COME TO BELGRADE AND HAVE PRESENTATION OF = HIS OR HER WORK, IT WILL BE POSSIBLE TO DO THIS WITHIN THE MANIFESTATION = POETRY WEEK... IN BELGRADE CULTURAL CENTER (I THINK YOU COULD FIND THE = SITE), JUST LET ME KNOW... ONE OR 2 PERSONS! THEY COULD GIVE = ACCOMODATION AND SMALL AMMOUNT OF MONEY FOR LOCAL COSTS DURING THE STAY. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 07:43:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: "Growing Up Girl" Chicago reading In-Reply-To: <968540.90988.qm@web31015.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable many congratulations on the anthology. I edited Poetry from Sojourner: A Feminist Anthology & know what it means to gather the words of disparate women & bring those words to a larger world. Hope it is greeted warmly. Women & Children is a great place to begin. Wish you success on your readin= g tour. On 2/8/07 6:47 PM, "Jennifer Karmin" wrote: > hey poetry friends....check out this new anthology of > women's writing edited by michelle sewell. it's a > terrific example of a community-based project being > fully supported by an independent press. >=20 > onwards, > jennifer karmin >=20 > ---------------------------- >=20 > A reading for=20 > "Growing Up Girl: > An Anthology of Voices from Marginalized Spaces" >=20 > Featuring editor Michelle Sewell > and Chicago contributors: > Wendy Altschuler > Jennifer Karmin > Janet Vega > Latiffany Wright > Jewel Sophia Younge >=20 > 7:30pm Friday, February 16 > Women and Children First Books > 5233 N. Clark Street -- Chicago, IL > http://www.womenandchildrenfirst.com > Free > =20 > Published by GirlChild Press, this eclectic collection > of poems, essays, and short stories documents the > transition from girl to woman as told by the girls and > women who know the journey best. The multicultural > anthology examines issues such as identity, domestic > violence, acceptance, motherhood, beauty, and > sexuality. It can be bought from independent > bookstores like Women and Children First or purchased > through http://www.girlchildpress.com. >=20 > WENDY ALTSCHULER graduated with high honors from > DePaul University with a degree in Women=B9s and Gender > Studies and Anthropology. She is the first person in > her family to graduate from college. >=20 > JENNIFER KARMIN is a poet, artist, and educator who > has experimented with language throughout the U.S. and > Japan. She is a founding member of the public art > group Anti Gravity Surprise and co-curator of the Red > Rover reading series. Jennifer works as a > Poet-in-Residence for the Chicago Public Schools and > teaches creative writing to immigrants at Truman > College. >=20 > MICHELLE SEWELL is an award-winning poet and > screenwriter whose writing has appeared on NPR and > Black Entertainment Television. Throughout her work > as a poet and a social worker, Sewell has maintained > that there must be a place for women and girls to > develop and express their truest selves. >=20 > JANET VEGA is 28 years old, married, and mother to two > beautiful boys. She is currently attending Morton > College for an Associates in Office Management > Technology.=20 >=20 > LATTIFANY WRIGHT is 24 years old and resides in > Chicago with her daughter. She is a student in the > Masters of Fine Arts program at Chicago State > University and plans to write full time after > completing her degree. >=20 > JEWEL SOPHIA YOUNGE has used several pen names in her > career. She has published a short story, =B3Roots Thing > Dirty,=B2 a short play, and poems in magazines ranging > from English Journal to Rolling Out. New York artist > Uraline Hager featured Younge=B9s work in New York and > Havana exhibits. Younge also worked on Coquie Hughe=B9s > most recent film =B3Did I Just Look at Her.=B2 Younge is a > St. Louis playwright who teaches, writes, and resides > in Chicago. >=20 >=20 > =20 > _________________________________________________________________________= _____ > ______ > The fish are biting. > Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing. > http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/sponsoredsearch_v2.php ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 08:36:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Andrew_Taylor?= Subject: CFP: 'George Oppen: A Centenary Conference' - conference Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" CFP: 'George Oppen: A Centenary Conference', conference, Fall/Autumn 2008= ,=20 Edinburgh University. 2008 marks the centenary of the birth of the American poet George Oppen.=20= =20 =46rom his early "objectivist" volume Discrete Series (1934) to the spare= =20 and enigmatic meditations of Primitive (1978), Oppen's work consistently=20= interrogated the relationship between poetry and sincerity and the ground= =20 of political and ethical value. This conference will include major=20 scholars from both sides of the Atlantic (including keynote addresses fro= m=20 Professor Marjorie Perloff of Stanford University and Professor Peter=20 Nicholls of Sussex Univerity) in order to celebrate Oppen's centenary and= =20 to consider key aspects of his artistic achievement and legacy. An edited volume of specially commissioned essays arising out of papers=20= given at the conference is also planned. Possible topics for consideration include: Objectivism and the literary=20= object; style and sincerity; literary and philsophical modernism; the col= d=20 war; the idea of America; poetry and the polis. Abstracts of no more than 500 words should be sent to Lee.Spinks@ed.ac.uk= .=20 The deadline for submissions is November 1, 2007. Lee Spinks (English Literature, University of Edinburgh) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 08:48:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Waber Subject: hush suite, 6 by Jenny Sampirisi Comments: To: announce MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii the minimalist concrete poetry site at: http://www.logolalia.com/minimalistconcretepoetry/ has been updated with 6 pieces by Jenny Sampirisi. Poetry rewires brains. This makes it the ideal tool to use for effecting cultural, social, and political change. Poetry built for the eye has the added benefit of the slow burn on the retina to help ensure it really sticks. Enjoy, Dan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 10:36:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Shankar, Ravi (English)" Subject: Re: praise to the watch MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gabe - very glad to read your piece too and in fact I began something = with a similar premise last year, but - pardon the pun - never had the = time to finish it. It's fascinating that something as apparently = transparent as the passage and recording of time is in fact deeply = politicized and constitutive of consciousness. Am including the piece I = was working on, which is fragmentary and incomplete in nature, but rubs = up nicely against yours I think. -Ravi=20 Timekeeping =20 Interrogate the role of the clock in the maintenance of empire.=20 Take the 1884 Prime Meridian Conference. The =93universal=94 hour, = Greenwich Mean, favors industry to agriculture, punching in to the = peripatetic, plugged and debugged to poaching like an egg in the = turbulence of a brass kettle.=20 Nothing nearer than fin de siecle.=20 Spaces gravid with teleological forms. Silences and elisions. Swathes of = season that know no second hand. Attempts to articulate sanitized = versions of nomadic culture in corporeal form, as perfected bodies = strapped to the wrist are subtle acts of terrorism. =20 Scratch marks on bones or sticks with a stone, count the interval = between phases of the moon, or like the Egyptians watch for Canis Major, = the Dog Star, to rise approximately when the inundation of the Nile = begins.=20 Anything with moving hands both disables and enables a spectatorial = position that cannot be graphed on axes.=20 Gnomons, shadow-casters, combined with scales to produce sundials, = specially made for different latitudes, status symbols when miniaturized = during the reign of Augustus Caesar,=20 Drip-drop a precursor to tick-tock a precursor to beep-beep-beep. Water through a siphon turns a wheel to set a drum marked with lines the = floating pointer of the clepsydra indicates to show elapse.=20 The moment of marigold feeling elongated into an outer fringe pulled = taut as a shawl over the eyes, a crouching in a trench where footfall = had been grown over green and withered to appear again, briefly = luminescent, not yours but more you than your own embodiment, though all = desire to possess it vanished, all desire vanished, a stillness where = motion ceased and you began, where you began with tentative strokes, to = recollect what in retrospect could not be recreated, was in fact and = would remain without semblance, what could not be, but was, in fact is. Astrolabe, star-grasper, instrument of the devil, set of movable plates = showing ecliptic and meridian, modeled on Hipparchus=92 map that = imagined a perpendicular line connecting each celestial body to the = plane of the Earth=92s equator, so location and distance and time were = discernable.=20 =20 Dram is to scruple is to grain is to fraction of a gram is to measurable = duration.=20 On the Spanish slave schooner, the Amistad, the ship=92s passengers, = snatched from Sierra Leone, revolted, sparing only the navigator for his = sextant, but instead of being returned home, ended up seized by the = United States Navy, interred in a New Haven jail, were argued over by = abolitionists and federal courts, were marked Cuban merchandise by the = Spanish, until, a few years later, accompanied by Christian = missionaries, they were returned to their village. What would you call = the passage of time for them contrasted with the lives of those who had = been left behind? =20 King Alfred the Great of England credited =93officially=94 with = inventing graduated candles to divide his day into duties, though for = centuries previous and into the Sung dynasty, the Chinese calibrated = sticks of incense to measure time, using sticks of different scents at = different intervals, so that hours were manifest by shifting fragrance. = Sandalwood sunrises, jasmine at noon, juniper evenings, myrrh presaging = dusk, the threads unraveling and dropping into a sounding plate, the air = charged with passages to read in the nose. Noon in New York. 7:00 PM, Cape Town, South Africa=20 1:00 PM, La Paz, Bolivia 8:00 PM in Baghdad, Iraq. 2:00 PM, Rio de Janeiro, Brazil 10:30 PM in Bombay, India=20 5:00 PM, Casablanca, Morocco Midnight in Bangkok, Thailand=20 4:00 PM, Reykjavik, Iceland 1:00 AM, next day, Shanghai, China 6:00 PM, Oslo, Norway 3:00 AM, next day Melbourne, Australia Standardization is to make uniform. Uniforms when worn show coherence. = Are a means of identification. Are markers of a lack of variation, = diversity or changes in degree. Standardization and uniforms go hand in = hand. Uniforms and force go hand in hand. Standardization, uniforms and = force go hand in hand. Commerce trails not far behind.=20 How time slows under intense gravity and increased velocity. The faster = one goes, the less time passes. Approach the speed of light and live = forever.=20 I wait for nothing, for nothing will come to pass.=20 Shifting grains in an hourglass, powdered eggshell, marble dust or sand = slipping away, metaphoric, flowing from one bulb of a glass vessel to = the other, through a passageway ten times the size of any single = particle. An hourglass to measure cooking times, municipal meetings, = speeds at sea, periods of torture.=20 In a verge-and-foliot escapement, gravity is mediated. A weighted rope = turns a toothed wheel. Controlling the movement of the wheel is a verge = with pallets at each end. When the wheel turns, the foliot oscillates = with weights until stopped by the pallets. Back forth, back forth, back = forth. Nothing measured but movement.=20 Because time is out there, eaten by light. (Norma Cole). The essence of = nowness runs like fire along the fuse of time (George Santayana). In the movies, time is abetted by edits. Cut from a plane taking off to = a plane landing in the same airport. A voyage has been taken, time has = passed. Cut from a zoom in of a door handle, to the interior of a room: = space has been moved through, time has passed. Use a montage of images = to depict passing time; use voiceover to move the action forwards, = backwards, into the leading edge of the narrative. Cinematic time, save = the two hours in a dark theater, is the elaborate construction of a = fiction. Yet take the projectionist in his dark booth, running a reel = backwards, so the coffee flows back into the pot, the butter smoothed = off the toast, the sizzling eggs liquefying then leaping from the pan = back into eggshells.=20 Time is a form of becoming. Becoming the form of time.=20 Quartz crystals possess piezoelectric charge, vibrate millions of time a = second when exposed to alternating electrical fields, yet over time, the = oscillations, due to temperature change, impurity, or decay, lose their = accuracy, drift, misquote the hour.=20 Between any two instants, there is a third, and between them, another, = an unquantifiable infinity of them, strung along a linear continuum like = shrinking beads on an invisible string. =20 ***************=20 Ravi Shankar=20 Ed., http://www.drunkenboat.com=20 Poet-in-Residence=20 Assistant Professor=20 CCSU - English Dept.=20 860-832-2766=20 shankarr@ccsu.edu=20 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 10:41:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: heidi arnold Subject: Re: march in belgrade cultural center In-Reply-To: <004501c75019$aad3a4f0$d502f0d5@b922003> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dear Dubravka Djuric, -- thank you for your message -- i imagine you are getting a lot of replies to it -- -- i would be interested in doing this -- very much so -- i would not need any funds -- and had planned to be in europe anyway -- it is a wonderful idea! thank you again for this post -- i will understand if you already have too many people best wishes, heidi www.heidiarnold.org www.peaceraptor.blogspot.com On 2/14/07, Dubravka Djuric wrote: > > IF SOMEONE FROM THE PEOPLE IN THIS LIST IS OR WILL BE IN EUROPE ARROUND > MARCH 20, AND COULD AFFORD TO COME TO BELGRADE AND HAVE PRESENTATION OF HIS > OR HER WORK, IT WILL BE POSSIBLE TO DO THIS WITHIN THE MANIFESTATION POETRY > WEEK... IN BELGRADE CULTURAL CENTER (I THINK YOU COULD FIND THE SITE), JUST > LET ME KNOW... ONE OR 2 PERSONS! THEY COULD GIVE ACCOMODATION AND SMALL > AMMOUNT OF MONEY FOR LOCAL COSTS DURING THE STAY. > -- www.heidiarnold.org http://peaceraptor.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 09:56:12 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: William Allegrezza Subject: Series A in Chicago--Next Tuesday Sterling Plumpp MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'd like to invite you to this month's Series A event. On Feb. 20th, next Tuesday, Sterling Plumpp with read with a musical duo. All events take place at the Hyde Park Art Center (5020 S. Cornell, Chicago, IL) at 7:00. BYOB. As our mailing list is small, please feel free to forward this e-mail. If you are a teacher, feel free to invite your students. For more information, visit http://www.moriapoetry.com/seriesa.html Bio: Sterling Plumpp was born in Clinton, Mississippi. Educated in public and religious schools, he graduated from high school in 1960 and went on to attend Roosevelt University in Chicago. Growing up poor in rural Mississippi, Plumpp worked in the cotton and cornfields and by the time he was eleven, he was expected to grow up to be a field hand. A bootlegger aunt had other plans for him, however, and paid for him to attend Holy Ghost High School in Jackson, Mississippi. Earning a scholarship to a small local college, Plumpp began his college education, but the scholarship money ran out, so he hitchhiked to Chicago in 1962. He worked in a post office until 1964, and during that time, he began writing his poetry. Plumpp saw his first poems published in 1971 in Negro Digest and was hired to teach English and later African American studies at the University of Illinois, Chicago. His poetry, often based on blues and jazz rhythms, has won him numerous awards, including the Richard Wright Literary Excellence Award, the Carl Sandburg Literary Award for poetry, and three Illinois Arts Council awards. He has published twelve volumes of his work. You can find a web site dedicated to Sterling Plumpp at http://www.shs.starkville.k12.ms.us/mswm/MSWritersAndMusicians/writers/Plump p.html Bill Allegrezza ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 10:43:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: heidi arnold Subject: Re: march in belgrade cultural center In-Reply-To: <11d43b500702140741u7ea51b6cjb9e09b1481f0350f@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline sorry, that was not meant for the list and should have been sent offlist regards, heidi On 2/14/07, heidi arnold wrote: > > Dear Dubravka Djuric, > > -- thank you for your message -- i imagine you are getting a lot of > replies to it -- > > -- i would be interested in doing this -- very much so -- i would not need > any funds -- and had planned to be in europe anyway -- it is a wonderful > idea! > > thank you again for this post -- i will understand if you already have too > many people > > best wishes, > > heidi > > www.heidiarnold.org > www.peaceraptor.blogspot.com > > On 2/14/07, Dubravka Djuric wrote: > > > > IF SOMEONE FROM THE PEOPLE IN THIS LIST IS OR WILL BE IN EUROPE ARROUND > > MARCH 20, AND COULD AFFORD TO COME TO BELGRADE AND HAVE PRESENTATION OF HIS > > OR HER WORK, IT WILL BE POSSIBLE TO DO THIS WITHIN THE MANIFESTATION POETRY > > WEEK... IN BELGRADE CULTURAL CENTER (I THINK YOU COULD FIND THE SITE), JUST > > LET ME KNOW... ONE OR 2 PERSONS! THEY COULD GIVE ACCOMODATION AND SMALL > > AMMOUNT OF MONEY FOR LOCAL COSTS DURING THE STAY. > > > > > > -- > www.heidiarnold.org > http://peaceraptor.blogspot.com/ -- www.heidiarnold.org http://peaceraptor.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 11:47:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Orange Subject: Rodney Jones wins $100,000 Poetry Prize MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline dear all, just came across this: "One of the richest prizes in poetry, the Kingsley Tufts Poetry Award, has gone to Rodney Jones, a professor of English at Southern Illinois University. Mr. Jones, the author of a collection titled "Salvation Blues" (Houghton Mifflin), will receive $100,000 from Claremont Graduate University, which selects the winner. Claremont chose Eric McHenry, a Seattle poet, as the winner of the Kate Tufts Discovery Award for his book "Potscrubber Lullabies," published by the Waywiser Press. He will receive $10,000." here is the title poem (the final stanza is italicized)... "Salvation Blues" Many people here expect the dead are not really dead. Therefore, they resolve to live as though they were not alive: so softly the minor thirds so tenderly the major sevenths, white gospel the elderly virgins keep treading like chastity until Franz Liszt, ravager and destroyer of pianos, critiques with a thunderstorm: Remind us there is something to be dead about. Play like you are alive, even if it is not true. the entire collection is searchable and readable on amazon. enjoy (to the extent possible), tom orange ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 09:25:34 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Weishaus Subject: Cecil Touchon Comments: To: Webartery MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think this is some interesting work: http://suprematism.org/index.html -Joel ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 12:23:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Ciccariello Subject: For this was on seynt Volantynys day MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline For this was on seynt Volantynys day The first recorded association of Valentine's Day with romantic love is in Parlement of Foules (1382) "For this was on seynt Volantynys day Whan euery bryd comyth there to chese [chose] his make [mate]." - by Geoffrey Chaucer From Wikipedia -- Peter Ciccariello http://invisiblenotes.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 13:43:59 -0500 Reply-To: az421@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rob McLennan Subject: fwd - [shadow2train@yahoo.com: One year on] MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT One year on, the shadow train is still travelling somewhere furiously towards you. In carriage #13: Davd HW Grubb wears clean underwear and carries A BRIEF GUIDE TO EVERYTHING; Luke Kennard has a go at pressing the FUN button; rob mclennan writes Valentines to Tina-Francis, Jennifer and others; John Muckle follows Nadine out of the station and under a bridge into the town; Emma Lee can’t stop texting someone; while Peter Hughes dreams of making a go-cart. To see more, go to http://shadowtrain.com Thank you. -- poet/editor/publisher ...STANZAS mag, above/ground press & Chaudiere Books (www.chaudierebooks.com) ...coord.,SPAN-O + ottawa small press fair ...12th poetry coll'n - aubade (Broken Jaw Press) .... c/o 858 Somerset St W, Ottawa ON K1R 6R7 * http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 10:44:26 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas savage Subject: Re: Rodney Jones wins $100,000 Poetry Prize In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Although it is of course questionable to judge a poet on the basis of one poem, it would seem that if this poem is representative of the style of the whole book, Mr. Jones has been vastly overpaid by the people who gave him one hundred thousand dollars. I could think of ten living poets right away who deserve this money more. Many fine poets have barely made $10,000 from their poetry after a lifetime of labor. Of course that labor is its own reward, but it would be nice if the money landed where it was deserved, for a change. Regards, Tom Savage Tom Orange wrote: dear all, just came across this: "One of the richest prizes in poetry, the Kingsley Tufts Poetry Award, has gone to Rodney Jones, a professor of English at Southern Illinois University. Mr. Jones, the author of a collection titled "Salvation Blues" (Houghton Mifflin), will receive $100,000 from Claremont Graduate University, which selects the winner. Claremont chose Eric McHenry, a Seattle poet, as the winner of the Kate Tufts Discovery Award for his book "Potscrubber Lullabies," published by the Waywiser Press. He will receive $10,000." here is the title poem (the final stanza is italicized)... "Salvation Blues" Many people here expect the dead are not really dead. Therefore, they resolve to live as though they were not alive: so softly the minor thirds so tenderly the major sevenths, white gospel the elderly virgins keep treading like chastity until Franz Liszt, ravager and destroyer of pianos, critiques with a thunderstorm: Remind us there is something to be dead about. Play like you are alive, even if it is not true. the entire collection is searchable and readable on amazon. enjoy (to the extent possible), tom orange --------------------------------- Check out the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 11:17:37 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: Rodney Jones wins $100,000 Poetry Prize In-Reply-To: <287797.14281.qm@web31105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline > Eric McHenry From Potscrubber Lullabies from Waywiser Press, home to the Anthony Hecht Poetry Prize; I think he freelances to Slate occasionally, has had some stuff published in Cranky. A note that while the Kingsley was formerly nominations only, now anyone can enter it. First books for the Kate. Since you have to send five copies of the book, this really adds up. Potscrubber Lullabies I The Potscrubber completes a cycle so vigorous the knives were rattling, and pauses, waking Evan Michael, who finds all silences unsettling. There's no resemblance. It's too early. Everything is still so round. But we've occurred to him as surely as silence has occurred to sound, and when he's finished sharpening into himself, and when we've blurred, we're going to go on happening in silence like he's never heard. II I wore him like a broken arm all summer, slung from my right shoulder in a paisley hammock so deep the sides closed over him. When I walked he swung, and slept, lulled by the time his body kept against my stomach. When I stopped I had to sing. Bird Plays to a Cow A Swedish musician remembers a drive through farm country in a car full of musicians, one of whom told Bird that cows love music. Bird asked the driver to pull over ..." =96 Gary Giddins, Celebrating Bird: The Triumph of Charlie Parker Fifty years from now a writer, writing about me playing to this cow, will call the cow "he." There's her udder, plain as an udder, and yet . . . something about what people want a cow, or an audience, to be. Some painters haze the foreground and render something in the middle-distance unnaturally sharp, to remind the idiot looker that this is a painting, not a pasture. The writer will probably do something self-referential, too, and will almost certainly call the cow "bewildered." "Bewildered." As though I strode out here expecting her to nod in time or stand on two hooves and applaud. As though cows stand around waiting for something, and not just anything, to come along. Come on. What I do might confuse you, but this cow was wildered when I got here. To this cow there is only the plain fact =96 hot fence, sharp fence, shit, puddle, tuft of grass, golden horn in the hands of the brown man who wasn't here this morning and is here now, and notes, too =96 after so much noise, the plain fact of song. My friend, the bewildered one who's still in the car, told me that cows dig music. I choose to believe that. That's what I'm doing here. She chews. That's what she's doing here. --=20 All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 11:30:22 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: Rodney Allen Jones Prize In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable He was a fascinating, engaging poet who used to read in =20 Philly.....Does anybody know if he's still around? Chris On Feb 14, 2007, at 11:17 AM, Catherine Daly wrote: >> Eric McHenry > =46rom Potscrubber Lullabies > > from Waywiser Press, home to the Anthony Hecht Poetry Prize; I think > he freelances to Slate occasionally, has had some stuff published in > Cranky. > > A note that while the Kingsley was formerly nominations only, now > anyone can enter it. First books for the Kate. Since you have to send > five copies of the book, this really adds up. > > Potscrubber Lullabies > > I > > The Potscrubber completes a cycle > so vigorous the knives were rattling, > and pauses, waking Evan Michael, > who finds all silences unsettling. > > There's no resemblance. It's too early. > Everything is still so round. > But we've occurred to him as surely > as silence has occurred to sound, > > and when he's finished sharpening > into himself, and when we've blurred, > we're going to go on happening > in silence like he's never heard. > > > II > > I wore him like a broken arm > all summer, slung > from my right shoulder in a paisley hammock > so deep the sides closed over him. > When I walked he swung, and slept, > lulled by the time his body kept > against my stomach. > When I stopped I had to sing. > > > > > > > > Bird Plays to a Cow > > > A Swedish musician remembers a drive through farm country in a car > full of musicians, one of whom told Bird that cows love music. Bird > asked the driver to pull over ..." =96 Gary Giddins, Celebrating Bird: > The Triumph of Charlie Parker > > > Fifty years from now > a writer, writing about me > playing to this cow, > will call the cow "he." > There's her udder, plain > as an udder, and yet . . . > something about what people want > a cow, or an audience, to be. > > Some painters haze the foreground > and render something in the middle-distance > unnaturally sharp, to remind the idiot looker > that this is a painting, not a pasture. > > The writer will probably do > something self-referential, too, > and will almost certainly call the cow "bewildered." > > "Bewildered." As though > I strode out here expecting her to nod > in time or stand on two hooves and applaud. > As though cows stand around waiting for something, > and not just anything, to come along. > Come on. What I do might confuse > you, but this cow was wildered when I got here. > > To this cow there is only the plain fact =96 > > > hot fence, sharp fence, shit, > puddle, tuft of grass, golden horn > in the hands of the brown man > who wasn't here this morning and is here now, > > and notes, too =96 > after so much noise, > the plain fact of song. > > My friend, > the bewildered one who's still in the car, > told me that cows dig music. > I choose to believe that. That's what I'm doing here. > She chews. That's what she's doing here. > > > > > --=20 > All best, > Catherine Daly > c.a.b.daly@gmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 16:11:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lauren Sorensen Subject: Frank Kuenstler MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello poetics list, I'm writing because I am conducting some research on NYC-based poet and filmmaker Frank Kuenstler (1928-1996). Anthology Film Archives recently acquired film elements produced by Kuenstler, and we're at a point now where we're trying to get a sense of the historical context, his role in the poetry community, and so on. I understand he was one of the founders of the Eventorium, a poetry and performance venue in the Upper East Side, that operated in the mid-60's. Those involved in this scene also produced a short-lived journal called the "Eventorium Muse." Kuenstler published numerous volumes of poetry, including LENS through Film Culture, and many others. Titles by Kuenstler would be especially helpful, as are any recollections of screenings of his work, or if you may have worked with him- please let me know, on- or off-list. If anyone has any information to share, I would greatly appreciate it. Library research is turning up very little, so any anecdotal information is especially useful. Thanks so much. best, Lauren Sorensen NYU Moving Image Archiving & Preservation ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 15:18:01 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: AL FRANKEN TO RUN FOR US SENATE - OFFICIAL In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://www.alfranken.com/page/content/videoMessage --- ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for earth-friendly autos? Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center. http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 00:05:05 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tim Peterson Subject: Julie E. Patton and M. Nourbese Philip - SEGUE at BPC, Sat Feb 17, 4 PM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed please come! Julie E. Patton and M. Nourbese Philip Saturday, February 17th, 2007 4pm-6pm Segue Reading Series The Bowery Poetry Club @ 308 Bowery, just north of Houston $6 Curators: Tonya Foster and Erica Hunt Julie Patton is a performance artist and writer. She is busy working on various community development/greenspace/sustainability projects under the rubric of “Think Green!” Her new chapbook “Notes for Some (Nominally) Awake” is forthcoming from Portable Press at Yo-Yo Labs. Julie often takes to the road for various collaborative projects with Uri Caine, and is a fellow at Bates College’s Common Grounds Project in Maine, where she collaborates with Jonathan Skinner. from “Car Tune” in “Car Tune” & Not So Bella Donna by Julie Patton Cobberates d’escapist nature O, not-so-funny papers pen Ulti mate racistcaper ah-h-h! shucksguffaw photogeneticaesthetics O, the evening news Correction Fluid car toon bloob Boobtubelooneytoonblues Technicoloring Marlene Nourbese Philip is a poet, essayist, writer and lawyer who lives in Toronto. A recipient of a Guggenheim Fellowship in poetry, the prestigious Casa de las Americas prize for She Tries Her Tongue, Nourbese Philip is also the l988 first prize winner of the Tradewinds Collective Prize (Trinidad & Tobago) in both the poetry and the short story categories. "The experiences of Black women and girls are foremost in NourbeSe's works, as are issues of belonging, language, place and location." from Looking for Livingstone by M. Nourbese Philip Livingstone now lies buried at Westminster Abbey because he “discovered” and explored Africa, turning what had been “burning solitudes, bleak, and barren, heated by poisonous winds, infested by snakes and only roamed over by a few scattered tribes of untameable barbarians” into “a high country, full of fruit trees, abounding inshade, eatered by a perfect network of rivers.”* Perhaps he discovered something else—the same thing I search for— bruised by tongue under tooth lips caress before the cruel between of teeth crush grind the hard kernels of silence ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 19:13:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Dylan Welch Subject: Re: Haiku dumbness / snobbishness In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Jason, et al, I've been away from email, but want to respond to some of the comments about haiku recently. To start with, I regard haiku as a genre of poetry, not a form. Form is only one aspect of many aspects of the genre. If you're snide towards form in general, to use your characterization of yourself, then perhaps you don't understand where I'm coming from regarding haiku, because I don't promote any set syllabic form for haiku. So I'm glad to hear that I've persuaded you, at least a little bit, that there's something you're missing out on with haiku. Perhaps others are missing it, too. Perhaps too, Jason, you've missed my insistence that a poem is a poem first, and a haiku (or not) only secondarily. If a poem moves me, I couldn't give a flying fig for whether it's a haiku or not. So the problem lies with *claiming* something is a haiku when it clearly misses some of haiku's predominant targets. You say "All manner of people have told me that that's not really haiku, to which my only response can be, okay, so what? so what if they're not haiku?" You seem to think I don't agree with you. Yes indeed, so what? Something can be really effective as a short poem, without regard to whether it's a haiku, even if it happens to be 5-7-5 syllables (which I think is irrrelevant to haiku in English, though some people think it IS relevant). This openness (poetry first, labels later, if at all) is one of my guiding priniciples in editing Tundra: The Journal of the Short Poem, whose contributors have included the following (some of these are forthcoming): Francisco X. Alar con, Art Beck, Robert Bly, John Brandi, Billy Collins, Ruth Daigon, Doc Dachtler, Dick Davis, Diane di Prima, Tom Disch, Jack Foley, Dana Gioia, Jonathan Greene, Jane Hirshfield, H. L. Hix, Ted Kooser, Richard Kostelanetz, Gerald Locklin, Leza Lowitz, Stefanie Marlis, Samuel Menashe, Paul Nelson, Charles Rossiter, Steve Sanfield, Barry Spacks, Robert Spiess, Robert Sward, Susan Terris, Mike Tuggle, Cor van den Heuvel, Ken Waldman, and many others. I provide this list to lend credence, I hope, to the quality of the short poetry I appreciate. Only two or three of the poets I've just listed are haiku writers, and you will also see a wide spectrum of formalists and experimentalists as well. Poetry first. Indeed, so what if a poem isn't a haiku? The *only* problem is when people claim that such poems ARE haiku if they're not. That's all. So if a person doesn't value haiku much, that's something I'm perfectly fine with. It's just that claiming something as haiku if it's very wide of the mark seems sloppy, and even naive in the extreme, like complaining that one's doggerel isn't accepted for publication at the leading poetry journals, yet insisting that one's doggerel is high art. It's *that* disconnect that strikes me as problematic, for both readers and the writer. I'm simply trying to point out that certain people, even if they're not claiming to be emperors, have no clothes on, yet seem to think they're wearing haiku clothes. At one level, who cares? I would like to hope, though, that POETS care, that EDUCATORS care. To think that something is a haiku when it's not can indeed be problematic. In one sense, it's a delusion. In another sense, it perpetuates misunderstandings fo r those who might be inclined to take the genre more seriously. I am perfectly happy to respect a lack of interest in haiku, but that's distinct from asserting something is haiku (out of naivete?) when it's not. At the very least, as you say, it's simply using the wrong word to call it haiku, but in my experience I've found that there is sometimes a deeper naivete than just using the wrong word because many people are so adamant and think that haiku is 5-7-5 (which is misguided in English), and nothing more (which is also misguided). It's more than just semantics, at least for many people. Your experience with learning haiku in school as a 5-7-5 poem is exactly the problem that needs to be corrected. I had the same experience, except it was in high school. The problem lies with the teachers, the curriculum guides, and the textbooks. You are apparently a victim of the problem, and may unwittingly contribute to the perpetuation of the problem. If you hardly cared about haiku, fine, but at least I hope you are now more aware of the issue. Where you get to a more valuable point is where you say "instead of convincing, all i seem to get from people like you who do think there is that kind of value in this particular set of conventions is a sort of arrogant browbeating." You may indeed be right there, so the difference may lie in my seeing value, and you not. The truth is that I see great value in it for its own sake, as well as great benefit of haiku techniques to other kinds of writing. You don't need haiku to learn these techniques, but haiku isolates and emphasizes certain techniques of clarity, image, implication, and objective/subjective control, so that's why it can be so helpful. But on its own terms, a haiku can be transcendent, producing a spiritual wholeness for many readers. A haiku may not change the world any more than a good joke gives momentary satisfaction, but there is something THERE, and I do think it gives many people more than just the short diversion of a joke. If you're not wired for haiku , fine (I repeat, that's fine). But for many people, a good haiku lifts the tops of their heads off. There's obviously value in it for a lot of people (hence societies, the many journals, and the 4,000+ haiku books in my library, which are but a portion of what's out there). I appreciate that you're not trying to be adversarial, but neither am I. Yet I'm stuck with observing what really is a great disconnect between the reality and perception of haiku poetry. And of course, I presume on this discussion list that people do care about poetics, and I would like to hope that that can include the poetics of haiku. Your most excellent point is where you say, "What i'd really like to see is for defenders of the form to make a concerted effort to talk about what it is that they like about it." However, your comment presumes that they haven't done this, whereas I believe they have done this in spades. Consider the five volumes of books that H. F. Noyes has published called "Favorite Haiku," where he does exactly that. By talking about the specific successes of individual poems, the overall gestalt of each of his books is one of why haiku as a genre is successful and appealing. And consider books such as Higginson's *Haiku Handbook* or Gurga's *Haiku: A Poet's Guide*, and several other similar books. This effort is beyond concerted -- it's masterful. The haiku journals regularly include similar commentary as to why haiku is appealing, to the point that it has become old news to those who have been writing in the genre for decades. Yet always there is a new crop for whom it is fresh news, so the commentary remains useful. As for me, take a look at my "Becoming a Haiku Poet" essay (http://www.haikuworld.org/begin/mdwelch.apr2003.html) and tell me if that doesn't begin to answer the question for you. Or another essay of interest may be "Haiku and the Japanese Garden," online at http://hometown.aol.com/welchm/Haiku-and-the-Japanese-Garden.html. And speaking of Lee Gurga, he has a fine essay on haiku aesthetics at http://www.baymoon.com/~ariadne/form/haiku/haiku.aesthetics.gurga.htm (scroll down a bit). He begins by asking a very sensible question of those who have been writing haiku: "It is unavoidable that we should have some idea of what haiku is. The question then becomes what kind of an idea should it be?" What is it I like about haiku? There are so many ways to answer that question, but for me haiku is an approach to infinity, in the way it creates a sense of wholeness and rightness by the careful emotive pairing of juxtaposed elements. The seasonal context adds archetypal meaning and a setting to the poem, but the main technique of implication -- somehow saying the unsaid -- allows reader engagement more than some other types of poetry, or at least in a more concentrated way. No wonder, for good reason, haiku is called an "unfinished poem." I've not heard that said of other genres of poetry. The world of allusion that goes on in good haiku is also an appeal. This is no different from other poetry, of course, but it's a richness that many casual readers of haiku (or those who read only pseudo-haiku) often don't notice. A selection of my haiku (with photographs) is online at http://www.brooksbookshaiku.com/welch/. Many of these poems are among my favourites (at least up until about 2000, when this online collection was published). It is not my preference to refer to "fake" haiku, versus "real" haiku, though I do like to paraphrase Robert Creeley: "Is that a real haiku, or did you write it yourself?" But I agree that it would be better to spend more attention on what makes the best haiku succeed, rather than dwell on what makes other things fail as haiku. However, I believe the conversation with many poets often has to start with unlearning. They have to back up from the wrong path they've taken, or at least be open to the possibility that they're on the wrong path. Perhaps only then does talking about what makes a good haiku work become more plausible. At least, that's my speculation. But I think it's accurate. The assumptions some people have about haiku are so deeply ingrained that it's hard for them to even begin to appreciate attempts to promote successful haiku. Ultimately, Jason, I'm delighted that you've ordered Lee Gurga's book. If that's the limit of your exploration of haiku, that's fine by me. But you are going a world farther than most people. I'm just trying to open the door, even if just a little bit. Michael -----Original Message----- Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 21:02:07 -0800 From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Haiku dumbness / snobbishness Well, i think the real issue is one of investment and value. You're a person who has devoted a considerable amount of time and energy into a poetic form, and as such that form has a value for you that it simply doesn't for me, as a person who generally is a little bit snide towards the idea of form from the get go. I think where the disconnect takes place is that you're mistaking a lack of interest in the minutiae of something that you say is complex (i'm not saying it's not complex, just that i don't know enough about it to be able to affirm or deny) for naivete, which is a little bit insulting. I can maybe illustrate with my own experience writing haiku. Like most people at some point in the third or fourth grade, my language arts teacher introduced the idea of syllables, as well as the idea of poems that don't possess end rhyme, by talking about these short little japanese poems called haiku that have a 5-7-5 syllable pattern. I think for most people that's the beginning and end of the interest in the form. I know that it has been largely for me. I've written all manner of poems in a 5-7-5 formula, and all manner of people have told me that that's not really haiku, to which my only response can be, okay, so what? so what if they're not haiku? if i don't know what the real purpose of a haiku is, and what the real goal is, and am in fact trying to achieve some other goal and mistakenly calling it haiku, i'm not being naive, i'm just using the wrong word. So i stop calling it haiku, and we can go about our lives happily enough never discussing it again. However, there's something very peculiar about in particular the haiku booster that really rubs me the wrong way. almost like some people take a sort of obscene pleasure in "correcting" the mistake of the less informed. at some point it becaomes as trivial a matter as whether kirk or picard were a superior starship captain. so what i'm saying is, i think what in your messages has gotten my back up a bit is the way it's expressed in such an accusatory and aloof manner, as if haiku is the only way to write a short poem, and that if one is working at the length of haiku there can't possibly be a goal higher than in realizing the conventions of haiku. being mainly an anti formalist and against the idea of poetic form that can't be expressed in a number of words fewer than the form permits the poem, i'm skeptical of such claims from the outset. So it takes some convincing for me to buy in to the idea that there really is something in this constructed form which genuinely warrants societies being dedicated to it, magazines devoted to it, and books written exploring teh depth of it. But instead of convincing, all i seem to get from people like you who do think there is that kind of value in this particular set of conventions is a sort of arrogant browbeating about how i don't know anything about the subject and that if i want to talk about it, i really need to do my homework. Well fine, i say, i hate homework so lets just not talk about it. Let teh haiku snob wallow in his penny-ante beat, and i'll roll my eyes and move on to something that i think genuinely is of value. If that makes sense, and I promise you i'm not trying to be adversarial, just trying to sort through the array of emotions and their instigations in the thread about haiku to date that prompted me to dispatch a snarky email. If you really want my opinion, this last email has gone a longer way towards getting me interested in haiku than your previous emails which seemed largely concerned with showing how some poems claiming to be haiku are not in fact. What i'd really like to see is for defenders of the form to make a concerted effort to talk about what it is that they like about it. What is it about the seasonal words and juxtapositions that you find in haiku that make them so essential and raises this above other forms like, for example, an aubade? I think maybe you'd get farther with snide jackasses like me if you focussed more on the positive argument for real haiku rather than the negative argument against fake haiku. Because i generally don't find things that are defined primarily by contrast to things which they are not to be particularly interesting. birds are cool because they have wings, not because they don't have gills, y'know? All of that having been said, i want to let you know that I really appreciate the sincerity and tone of your last email, and I want you to know that by it, you've aroused a curiosity in me about the form that did not exist when i snarkily suggest that haiku be relegated to mystery cults. There's very little as effective as the sincere expression of passion for a topic to make another person sympathetic to investigating it. I've ordered Gurga's book, and am looking forward to reading it. I don't know if i'll become a haiku fanatic, or even if i'll ever try to write a haiku, but you've swayed me to thinking that maybe there's something i'm missing out on, and that's a tactic that is very effective with me. ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 20:15:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Dylan Welch Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Barry, I don't consider myself a formalist with haiku, except in the sense of being aware of valuable techniques (not forms) that are effective to use -- if you want to consider that "formal." I have been labeled a traditionalist by the more avant-garde, and a nontraditionalist by the deeply traditional. But whatever the case may be, I myself don't think of my approach as formalist, especially since I don't count syllables with the bulk of my haiku. In fact, I encourage a great deal of innovation in haiku. And I preach that "no one owns haiku." Innovation for its own sake doesn't have a great lot of appeal to me (in the extreme, it can devolve into purely having shock value, or having little substance, though sometimes it can make you think or shake you out of habits), but innovation from a perspective is a grander thing, at least for me. What the sumo wrestler or a boxer can do within the ring is the art of the fight. It's the art of any sport to be creative within the confines of the rules. A sport without rules is no longer a sport. And yet what freedom most sports have. And all poetry has *some* sorts of rules imposed on it (by the writer, if not someone else), and these can be as fundamental as writing in lines, in English, with generally normal spelling. Basic rules may or may not include these (but will probably include others), but out of it comes great variety and creativity. I'm all for it. As soon as you get into a genre, though, at what point is a poem a haiku, and when is it not? Let the haiku pundits worry about the exact point of divergence if you will. But there is at least a difference. There is a point where a haiku is not a haiku, and a sonnet is not a sonnet, where free verse is not free (no verse is ever really free, as we know), and where experimental poetry is rooted in tradition, and so on. (Cummings typographical experiments masked a great many poems that were fairly traditional sonnets, for example.) I have no problem with altering a form's constraints (whether haiku or sonnet), to use Joe Amato's words. But this is an act of *altering* the constraints, not being ignorant of them. It is harsh to suppose that someone is ignorant of them. But let us suppose that some people are, and offer "haiku" to the world. They are not "altering" the constraints at all. To paraphrase Basho, only when you know the rules can you begin to alter them. Dan, I appreciate your comment: "Speaking only of the haiku form, it seems to have gotten a particularly bad, trivializing, rap. There are so many haikus out there that are atrocious, and rather than see the atrociousness of the poem as a singular (repeated many times over) occurrence, the form itself gets triviailized, Hallmarkized." I would only add that there are equally many atrocious poems out there in other forms (or no particular form). Or as Joe said, "atrocious poetry of any stripe ought to be called out for what it is." It's just that the atrociousness of those particular attempts at haiku has gotten associated with the genre itself, thus giving the genre an unfair rap. By the way, in the haiku community, it's a no-no to write a "Hallmark" haiku. No disparagement of Hallmark meant, naturally, but there's a difference between poetry and sentiment. Regarding my critique of "Golf Haiku," Eric wrote "Thanks to MDW for taking the time to write such a thoughtful critique of my haiku. Though you missed my intention -- which was merely to knock off something silly -- your criticism was excellent. It helped me to understand the form and tradition of a proper haiku. Honest criticism is rare enough, but honest and extensive criticism is both rare and rewarding." I appreciate the kind words. I wish that people weren't so intent at "knocking off something silly," which seems to happen so often with haiku. I don't mean to pick on you with this comment, Eric. Just making a general statement that your poem and comment has prompted. Dan Zimmerman offered three new haiku, each of which have strong, essentially objective images, and the first one has a juxtapositional structure: fog on the river / docked boats jostle / on the changing tide after the blizzard / shovelers pitch snow / only so high my newspaper / too wet from the snowbank / to read today There is such a difference between these, as haiku, than some of the previous poems posted here, that are not haiku. That does NOT mean the above three are better poems, though. That's a separate matter. Thanks, too, Jason, for your comments on Japanese. My understanding is that "onji" isn't quite the right word ("on" is apparently more accurate, pronounced something like "own" but quicker), but thanks for emphasizing the difference between syllables and on. (See "Stalking the Wild Onji" for Richard Gilbert's exploration of the term "onji" and its problems -- online at http://www.iyume.com/research/onji/onji1.html.) "Haiku" has two syllables, but three on. "Basho" too. As you say, Jason, "where we are listening for syllables, the japanese are listening for mora, or onji [on], and the syllable is a slightly larger unit than a mora." Koji Kawamoto, as I think I've mentioned before, has a definitive essay on this subject in the appendix to his book *The Poetics of Japanese Verse* (University of Tokyo Press). (By the way, Jason, since you quoted one of Jack McCarthy's haiku, Jack and I have discussed haiku together here in Seattle, where I was featured poet (but not a competitor) for the 2005 and 2006 haiku slams. Jack won the 2005 Seattle haiku slam, and was second last year. I think he knows how his poems differ from the traditional aesthetics of haiku. I also recognize what he is doing, which, to some degree, is responding to what people THINK a haiku should be, for better or worse. Jack will also be a featured reader next month in the SoulFood Poetry Night series that I curate in Redmond, Washington. I hope that says something.) Michael -----Original Message----- Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 09:45:43 +0000 From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: haiku I think Joe's point is well taken. While this discussion has been very instructive in many ways, we should not forget that this is list whose topic is innovative poetics. I'm sure there are other lists available for the promulgation of traditionalist poetics, and some of the same people might even be on both lists, since there is no reason not to be interested in both. But to the extent that we are not, at some point we just have to respectfully agree to disagree, letting the discussions of traditionalist poetics continue in whatever space is devoted to that and the discussions of innovative poetics, whatever that turns out to be, move forward in this one. As for myself, I think that a good deal of that heat that's been generated here hasto do with the "ownership" of the name "haiku." Although it would be useful to me to have recourse to this name at certain times, it doesn't really mean as much to me as it obviously does to some others, and therefore I'd just as soon cede it to them. I don't know why, but somehow this all reminds me of the dispute between Greece and one of the former Yugoslav republics over the name "Macedonia." United Nations intervention has still not resolved this issue. But when I lived in Italy, "macedonia" (small m) was the word for "fruit salad"--an association with very positive connotations as far as I'm concerned. So from now on I am going to avoid the use of the h-word to refer to any poem using a 5-7-5 structure or any other similar short poem whatsoever, except where this is unavoidable, such as when citing something that someone else said. From now on, I promise to refer to all such poems as " macedonia." -----Original Message----- Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 17:36:59 -0800 From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Haiku Death Match Michael Dylan Welch wrote: > As I understand it, Japanese is not accented the way English or Latin is. > Thus each "syllable" of a multisyllable word is generally pronounced evenly > in > Japanese. The Japanese word for a species of cuckoo, hototogisu, has each > syllable pronounced evenly, which is part of its music. As a more common > example, the word for cherry blossom, sakura, has each of its syllables at > about > the same pitch and length. It's *not* sa-KU-ra. Nor is it SA-ku-ra (like > the > beginning of "saccharine"). And of course it's also not "sa-ku-RA." On the > other hand, some Japanese people drop or greatly minimize the last syllable > in > some words when speaking (even though they would still count that sound in > haiku). Thus I've often heard a Japanese person speak of "haik" (with an > extremely subtle "u" after the "k") when they mean "haiku" -- or they might > say > "hototogeese" (though with a very quick "geese") and barely say the "oo" > sound > that normally follows in "hototogisu." If you ask the question "Desu ka," > it > typically sounds like "Des-ka." Otherwise, though, I think the sounds are > fairly > even. I know other words and phrases are commonly shortened or combined, > but > that's more of a colloquial compression of language than a variance in > pronunciation. I took Japanese for three years in highschool, and while i'm far from fluent, I do have some recall of of the issues revolving around this because it's some of the hardest stuff involving correct pronunciation, and my drill instructor japanese teacher ground them into our heads. I think she was more concerned with our pronouncing the language properly than understanding it. Basically, japanese syllable weight is determined by the onji, and accents happen in pitch rather than in syllable weight. So what you get often times is syllables getting shortened or lengthened so that the on fit the timing, because they shorten vowels that we normally hear as double vowels, because English is stress-timed and so syllable length isn't something that we contemplate a lot it just sort of happens by convention. Not so in japanese, the on are all the same length, so syllables will vary in length depending on how many on are in it. So for example in "ikimasho" (japanese for "let us go"), ther e are four syllables i-ki-ma-sho, but there are five on i-ki-ma-shy-o, all of which get the same amount of time. similarly with desu and the irregular verb form masu, the [u] vowel is generally a long vowel in English, whereas with japanese all vowels have long and short versions and so their terminal u's sound really chopped to western ears because they have to be distinguished from a longer vowel and a different meaning (i don't know if desoo or masoo are other words or if it would just sound like nonsense to a native speaker.) Once i got used to listening to it, it became apparent that the shortening of "su" that i thought i was hearing, while it doesn't happen, it wasn't nearly as pronounced as i thought it was because it was very similar to the su that one finds in the beginning of a word like "sushi" as it is pronounced in japanese (a slight but noticable difference from its English Cognate), or the shortened version in "sukoshi" (a small quantity, from which the Englis h Scosh is derived). the [u] is always still there, but i think as English speakers what happens is that we mutate the foreign sounding vowels that we don't generally use into to consonant codas and our ears then turn something like "sukoshi" or "sukiyaki" into "scoshii" or "skyaki." Most japanese speakers can hear the difference and the dropped syllables, but English speakers have to learn to listen for it. I even vaguely remember my teacher saying that one of the signs of an american accent when speaking japanese is either dropping vowels or making vowels too long. so an american might render "kore wa usagi deshitaka" (was that a rabbit) as "Cord wa oozagy deshtaka" writing phonetically. The difference of course beign that where we are listening for syllables, the japanese are listening for mora, or onji, and the syllable is a slightly larger unit than a mora. I'm surprised i remember that many words, but i'm starting to think maybe i should go take a night class in japanese since so much of the fundamentals still seem to be there. ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 19:23:51 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: the politics of the pocket -- (was watch thread) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Murat and Ravi. And, Ravi, thanks for forwarding yr v cool musings about the watch. The gender politics of time are kinda fascinating and have a lot to do, I think, with the gender politics of pockets. EG, the wristwatch, invented 1868, was at first seen as a woman's accessory. It wasn't really until WWI, when the wristwatch was used in the trenches (easier to look at the wrist than to root around for one's pocket watch). Later it was used by trench officers and artillery officers to coordinate attacks and troop movements -- at which point all European armies began mass producing them. The troops, at war's end, took the watches home with them. In many ways, the popularity of the wristwatch among men owes something to trench warfare and to the expediency of not busying a hand by dipping i into a pocket. Men and women first wore watches around their necks. Then men began putting them in vest pockets (in 1675), while women kept them on their necks or on waist belts (see paintings of Wm Hogarth). Then women put them on their wrists (1868) while men kept them in their pockets. I don't know what the deal is with women's fashion and the "no pocket" custom, but it's kind of fascinating how even now women's clothing has far fewer pockets than men's. The gender politics of the pocket is really fascinating: has something, i guess, to do with forced domestication of women: keeping them at home, pretending that they have no life of real "utility" (are pockets construed as utilitarian?). Time was fashioned/coded as utilitarian concept? Gabe -- __________________________________ http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com ---------------------------------- Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, Illinois 61790 309.438.5284 (office) < Subject: Re: praise be to the watch In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Gabriel, I second. Alan. Your piece ticks away. Murat ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 20:28:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carol Novack Subject: Mad Hatters' Review Issue 7 OUT OUT OUT OF IT INTO IT! Comments: To: NYCWriters@yahoogroups.com, "newyorkcitywriters@yahoogroups.com" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
WE'RE LIVE!!! Mad Hatters' Review Issue 7 READ IT NOW!!! 3D"Issue
Poetry Joe Amato Gunnar Benediktsson Bob Marcacci Sally Molini Michael Neff Fiction Jai Clare Brandon Hobson Juan Jos=E9 Mill=E1s Translated from the Spanish b= y Peter Robertson Rochelle Ratner D. Harlan Wilson G. K. Wuori Non-Fiction Kevin P. Keating Whatnots Lynda Schor Rob Stephenson Vernon Frazer Audio Text Collages by Davis Schneiderman& Don Meyer The Memorials to Future Catastrophes Distant Early Warning System Book Reviews by C.B. Smith 'The Last Stage' by Jim Cherry Walden' by Michael T. Dolan 'A Bit of a Marriage' by Karina Mellinger 'Institutionalized' by Fred Smith & Joe Schmoe Columns Rich Andrews Sir Castor Bayley Tantra Bensko Crazy Jane Pete Dolack Shirley Harshenin Lockie Hunter D. A. Eis Helen Ruggieri Comics Coconuts, Patriotic Polly, Tristan, Miss Julie & Steve & others Contests The Wrong Roof Winners Beebe Barksdale-Bruner, Theresa Boyar, Timothy Matos, Kendall Kyle Cyree & Liz Gallagher Current Contest Guidelines: "Mad About You" Editor's Rave Carol Novack Galleries Calum Colvin I II Issue 7 Art Issue 7 Music Interviews Calum Colvin Lynda Schor Mental Theatre Don Bergland Video Wanda Phipps, Poetry, Prose, and Anything Goes at KGB, November 17, 2006 Video by Joel Schlemowitz Viva Caledonia A multi-media showcase, celebrating the cutting edge of Scottish creative talent. Selections by Peter Robertson Fiction by Alan Bissett Anne Donovan Janice Galloway Kirsty Gunn Laura Marney Poetry by Richard Crawford W. N. Herbert Robert Jamieson Tom Pow Dilys Rose Alan Spence Play by Alisdair Gray Art by Calum Covin & Music by Peter de Moncey-Conegliano --=20 MAD HATTERS' REVIEW: Edgy & Enlightened Literature, Art & Music in the Age of Dementia: http://www.madhattersreview.com KEEP THE MAD HATTERS ALIVE! MAKE A TAX DEDUCTIBLE DONATION HERE: https://www.fracturedatlas.org/site/contribute/donate/580 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 20:28:25 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beckett Subject: Re: Galatea Resurrects #5 is Launched MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 We are pleased to announce the new issue of Galatea Resurrects #5 at _http://galatearesurrection5.blogspot.com/_=20 (http://galatearesurrection5.blogspot.com/) For convenience, I'm cutnpast= ing the Table of Contents below. Please visit us at _http://grarchives.blogspot.com_=20 (http://grarchives.blogspot.com/) if you would like information on sending= review copies or=20 volunteering reviews. Reviewers unable to make this issue's deadline can a= lso submit=20 their reviews for the next issue, whose deadline is May 5, 2007. Best, Eileen Tabios ++++++++++++ GALATEA RESURRECTS #5 February 14, 2007 CONTENTS: EDITOR'S INTRODUCTION From Eileen Tabios NEW REVIEWS Ron Silliman reviews BEEN BLUE FOR CHARITY by kari edwards Mark Young reviews BEEN BLUE FOR CHARITY by kari edwards=20 Guillermo Parra reviews Micah Ballard=E2=80=99s poems in 6x6 #5; BETTINA CO= FFIN;=20 ABSINTHIAN JOURNAL; SCENES FROM THE SARAGOSSA MANUSCRIPT; UNFORESEEN; DEATH= RACE=20 V.S.O.P.; EVANGELINE DOWNS; and NEGATIVE CAPABILITY IN THE VERSE OF JOHN=20 WIENERS=20 Julie R. Enszer reviews BALANCING ACTS by Rochelle Ratner Ernesto Priego reviews THE ANIMAL HUSBAND by Christine Hamm Nicholas Manning reviews NIGHT SEASON by Mark Lamoureux Eileen Tabios reviews FIRST ADVENTURES OF COL AND SEM by Dan Waber J. LeClerc reviews BOWERY WOMEN: POEMS, Ed. by Marjorie Tesser & Bob Holman Ivy Alvarez presents a Chap Roundup reviewing MY LIGHTWEIGHT INTENTIONS by=20 Pam Brown; SURFACE TENSION by Mackenzie Carignan and Scott Glassman;=20 TRANSLATIONS FROM AFTER by Joel Chace; OH MISS MARY by Jim McCrary; DOVEY &= ME by=20 Strongin; and THE NAME POEMS by Jeffrey Cyphers Wright=20 Julie R. Enszer reviews A HALF-RED SEA by Evie Shockley =20 Nicholas Manning reviews TRACT by Jon Leon Mary Jo Malo reviews BLOOD AND SALSA / PAINTING RUST by Jonathan Penton Rebecca Mabanglo-Mayor reviews THE GODS WE WORSHIP LIVE NEXT DOOR by Bino =20 Realuyo Eileen Tabios reviews THE ALLEGREZZA FICCIONES by Mark Young Jeannine Hall Gailey reviews NAVIGATE, AMELIA EARHART'S LETTERS HOME by=20 Rebecca Loudon Nicholas Downing reviews CIVILIZATION by Elizabeth Arnold=20 William Allegrezza reviews KALI'S BLADE by Michelle Bautista John Bloomberg-Rissman reviews UNPROTECTED TEXTS: SELECTED POEMS 1978-2006=20 by Tom Beckett Tom Beckett reviews A READING, 18-20 by Beverly Dahlen Eileen Tabios reviews WIND IS WIND AND RAIN IS RAIN by Brynne Allen Bramhall reviews DOWN SPOOKY by Shanna Compton Lynn Strongin reviews SHOT WITH EROS: NEW AND SELECTED POEMS and SEED PODS,= =20 both by Glenna Luschei William Allegrezza reviews I OF THE STORM by Bill Lavender Richard Lopez reviews OH MISS MARY by Jim McCrary Craig Santos Perez reviews THE TIME AT THE END OF THIS and 60 LV BO(E)MBS,=20 both by Paolo Javier Anne Haines presents a Chap Roundup reviewing RADISH KING by Rebecca Loudon= ;=20 LIVING THINGS by Charles Jensen; and MORTAL by Ivy Alvarez Lynn Strongin reviews THIRST by Mary Oliver Mario E. Mireles reviews excerpts from NOT EVEN DOGS by Ernesto Priego;=20 Matsuo Bash=E2=80=99s =E2=80=9CThe Narrow Road of the Interior" in The Nort= on Anthology of World=20 Masterpieces, Ed. Maynard Mack; and Octavio Paz=E2=80=99s "The Tradition of= the=20 Haiku" in Convergences: Essays on Art and Literatur. William Allegrezza reviews ELAPSING SPEEDWAY ORGANISM by Bruce Covey=20 Laurel Johnson reviews CALLS FROM THE OUTSIDE WORLD by Robert Hershon=20 Eileen Tabios reviews BODY OF CRIMSON LEAVES by Celia Homesley Eileen Tabios reviews THE PLANT WATERER AND OTHER THINGS IN COMMON by=20 Kathryn Rantala Julie R. Enszer reviews OSIP MANDELSTAM: NEW TRANSLATIONS, Ed. by Ilya=20 Bernstein =20 Hugh Fox reviews SEEDPODS by Glenna Luschei=20 Marjorie Light reviews COMING FULL CIRCLE: THE PROCESS OF DECOLONIZATION=20 AMONG POST-1975 FILIPINO AMERICANS and A BOOK OF HER OWN: WORDS AND IMAGES=20= TO=20 HONOR THE BABAYLAN, both by Leny M. Strobel Mark Young reviews SONNET by Matt Hart Eileen Tabios reviews THE GRACES by Elizabeth Treadwell and SONNET by Matt=20 Hart FROM OFFLINE TO ONLINE: REPRINTED REVIEWS Andrew Joron reviews ULTRA VIOLET by Laura Moriarty Britta Ameel reviews ALASKAPHRENIA by Christine Hume Sharon Mesmer reviews OPPOSABLE THUMB by Joe Elliot Eileen Tabios reviews OBEYED DILEMMA by Jukka-Pekka Kervinen Alfred Yuson reviews BELIEVE & BETRAY by Cirilo F. Bautista Alfred Yuson reviews MATADORA by Sarah Gambito Alfred Yuson reviews FAULTY ELECTRICAL WIRING: POEMS by Ruel S. De Vera, A=20 FEAST OR ORIGINS by Dinah Roma and ELSE IT WAS PURELY GIRLS by Angelo Suare= z BACK COVER What it Means to be Missy WinePoetics=E2=80=99 Dawgs ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 20:43:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carol Novack Subject: Issue 7 of Mad Hatters' Review has arrived! Submit 2/15 through 3/1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
WE'RE LIVE!!! Mad Hatters' Review Issue 7 READ IT NOW!!! 3D"Issue
Poetry Joe Amato Gunnar Benediktsson " target=3D"_blank">Bob Marcacci Sally Molini Michael Neff Fiction Jai Clare Brandon Hobson Juan Jos=E9 Mill=E1s Translated from the Spanish b= y Peter Robertson Rochelle Ratner D. Harlan Wilson G. K. Wuori Non-Fiction Kevin P. Keating Whatnots Lynda Schor Rob Stephenson Vernon Frazer Audio Text Collages by Davis Schneiderman& Don Meyer The Memorials to Future Catastrophes Distant Early Warning System Book Reviews by C.B. Smith 'The Last Stage' by Jim Cherry Walden' by Michael T. Dolan 'A Bit of a Marriage' by Karina Mellinger 'Institutionalized' by Fred Smith & Joe Schmoe Columns Rich Andrews Sir Castor Bayley Tantra Bensko Crazy Jane Pete Dolack Shirley Harshenin Lockie Hunter D. A. Eis Helen Ruggieri Comics C= oconuts, Patriotic Polly, Tristan, Miss Julie & Steve & others Contests The Wrong Roof Winners Beebe Barksdale-Bruner, Theresa Boyar, Timothy Matos, Kendall Kyle Cyree & Liz Gallagher Current Contest Guidelines: "Mad About You" Editor's Rave Carol Novack Galleries Calum Colvin I II Issue 7 Art Issue 7 Music Interviews Calum Colvin Lynda Schor Mental Theatre Don Bergland Video Wanda Phipps, Poetry, Prose, and Anything Goes at KGB, November 17, 2006 Video by Joel Schlemowitz Viva Caledonia A multi-media showcase, celebrating the cutting edge of Scottish creative talent. Selections by Peter Robertson Fiction by Alan Bissett Anne Donovan Janice Galloway Kirsty Gunn Laura Marney Poetry by Robert Crawford W. N. Herbert Robert Jamieson Tom Pow Dilys Rose Alan Spence Play by Alisdair Gray Art by Calum Covin & Music by Peter de Moncey-Conegliano --=20 MAD HATTERS' REVIEW: Edgy & Enlightened Literature, Art & Music in the Age of Dementia: http://www.madhattersreview.com KEEP THE MAD HATTERS ALIVE! MAKE A TAX DEDUCTIBLE DONATION HERE: https://www.fracturedatlas.org/site/contribute/donate/580 http://carolnovack.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 17:46:28 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: gfrym@EARTHLINK.NET Subject: Re: the politics of the pocket -- (was watch thread) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Gabriel, There's an incredible section of Jamaica Kinkaid's A Small Island on tourism in the Caribbean, specifically her native Antigua, in which she speaks of the wrist watch as the colonial, nee British, way of owning and controlling and reducing time. Gloria Frym ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gabriel Gudding" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 5:23 PM Subject: the politics of the pocket -- (was watch thread) > Thanks Murat and Ravi. > > And, Ravi, thanks for forwarding yr v cool musings about the watch. > > The gender politics of time are kinda fascinating and have a lot to do, I > think, with the gender politics of pockets. EG, the wristwatch, invented > 1868, was at first seen as a woman's accessory. It wasn't really until > WWI, when the wristwatch was used in the trenches (easier to look at the > wrist than to root around for one's pocket watch). Later it was used by > trench officers and artillery officers to coordinate attacks and troop > movements -- at which point all European armies began mass producing them. > The troops, at war's end, took the watches home with them. In many ways, > the popularity of the wristwatch among men owes something to trench > warfare and to the expediency of not busying a hand by dipping i into a > pocket. > > Men and women first wore watches around their necks. Then men began > putting them in vest pockets (in 1675), while women kept them on their > necks or on waist belts (see paintings of Wm Hogarth). Then women put them > on their wrists (1868) while men kept them in their pockets. I don't know > what the deal is with women's fashion and the "no pocket" custom, but it's > kind of fascinating how even now women's clothing has far fewer pockets > than men's. > > The gender politics of the pocket is really fascinating: has something, i > guess, to do with forced domestication of women: keeping them at home, > pretending that they have no life of real "utility" (are pockets construed > as utilitarian?). Time was fashioned/coded as utilitarian concept? > > Gabe > > -- > __________________________________ > http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com > ---------------------------------- > Gabriel Gudding > Department of English > Illinois State University > Normal, Illinois 61790 > 309.438.5284 (office) > > > > < > Subject: Re: praise be to the watch > In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > Content-Disposition: inline > > Gabriel, > > I second. Alan. Your piece ticks away. > > Murat ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 20:52:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Slaughter, William" Subject: Notice: Mudlark MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit New and On View: Mudlark 32 (2007) Elephant Anger Twenty-five Prose Poems by Laura McCullough Laura McCullough has a BA from The Richard Stockton College of NJ and an MFA in Writing and Literature from Goddard College. She is a New Jersey State Arts Council Fellow, has won a Geraldine R. Dodge Scholarship to attend the Fine Arts Work Center in Provincetown, was the 2005 Prairie Schooner Merit Scholar in Poetry at the Nebraska Summer Writers Workshop, and participated in the 2005 Bread Loaf writers conference as a contributor. Her poems have appeared in Nimrod, Potion, Hotel Amerika, Gulf Coast, Nightsun, Iron Horse Quarterly, Boulevard, Amarillo Bay, The God Particle, Poetry East, Confluence, Exquisite Corpse, The Potomac, Stirring, Word Riot, Tarpaulin Sky, among other places. Her first collection of poems, THE DANCING BEAR, was published by Open Book Press in 2006. Her second collection of poems, WHAT MEN WANT, is scheduled for release by XOXOX Press in January 2008. Her stories, "What A Good Dog Knows" and "Brick Facade," have appeared in Nasty (University of Calgary, Canada) and Pierian Springs Review and are chapters in her recently completed novel, FINDING ONG'S HAT. She teaches writing at Brookdale Community College in NJ where she chairs the Visiting Writers Series. William Slaughter MUDLARK An Electronic Journal of Poetry & Poetics Never in and never out of print... E-mail: mudlark@unf.edu URL: http://www.unf.edu/mudlark ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 21:15:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Adam Morey Subject: Rasula's Email Address MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Looking for Jed Rasula's email address. Let me know what it is. Thanks. am ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 20:48:54 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Lynda Schor in Madhatters' Review 7 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed My darling valentine has both a whatnot and an interview in Madhatters' Review 7, which you're invited to enjoy. Top page: http://www.madhattersreview.com/issue7/index.shtml If you'll click on "contributors," you'll see Lynda on the roof of our darling l'il house (rented, of course) here in San Miguel. http://www.madhattersreview.com/issue7/contributors7.shtml Enjoy. Hal "I think pigs should be allowed to run free--just like politicians." --Edna Buchanan Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com halvard@earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 18:52:50 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: the politics of the pocket -- (was watch thread) In-Reply-To: <003a01c750a3$1c97a4e0$6401a8c0@VAIO> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Curious to remember in the sixties when many of us stopped wearing watches, at all. As in who wanted to march to the corporate drum, it's terrible, regimented, soul killing clock. (I don't know if that has changed!) And, in light of Gabriel's militarismo connection, who wanted to go to Vietnam and wear a watch in a trench or, to go on a "well-timed" bombing mission. The wrist watch seemed synchronized with death on all levels (public, personal and spiritual). (There was the late sixties, Chamber's Brother's song, "Time Has Come Today, young hearts can go their way Can't put it off another day I don't care what others say ... with the haunting refrain: 'Time' 'Time', 'Time'. Which seemed to be much more than about romance, and more about beating back the clock) But the reference, too, to the pocket, the lack of them on women's vestments. The pocket book was first created by Aldus in Venice -who created italic type to fit the format - in the sixteenth century. (I believe his first pocketbooks were for the works of Virgil and Horace.) But clearly - through the whole history of the "pocketbook", the pocketbooks have never fit into women's clothes (that I know of). Women had to, and probably still have to, be in male drag to put a book in a pocket - say a trench coat, popular among young women in the sixties . (woops, "trenchcoat" = military connection, again). Well, certain larger purses and backpacks do accommodate. As Gloria Frym brings up, the history of the Europe and the west altering concepts of time in the colonies is also interesting. The Igbos in Nigeria, for example, had a four day week - one that coincided with market days, I believe. Europe and Christianity and capitalism brought the 7 day week. I think this scenario of expanding days played out across Latin America as well. The clock is capitalism's bazooka - someone said that. And religion's - Christ and his cathedral bells. Course, inevitably, in terms of poetry, this all plays into arguments around the tick-tock yoke of formalism, and related repressive political formations. (John Cage and Steve Reich, for examples, seem to be all about breaching that western formal sense of time). Actually - to indulge a contradiction here - a well-used clock may liberate much interesting work and play, and poems, too. Go, Gabriel - fourth down and ten to goal and 15 seconds left on the clock. Stephen V http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > Hi Gabriel, > There's an incredible section of Jamaica Kinkaid's A Small Island on tourism > in the Caribbean, specifically her native Antigua, in which she speaks of > the wrist watch as the colonial, nee British, way of owning and controlling > and reducing time. > > Gloria Frym > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gabriel Gudding" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 5:23 PM > Subject: the politics of the pocket -- (was watch thread) > > >> Thanks Murat and Ravi. >> >> And, Ravi, thanks for forwarding yr v cool musings about the watch. >> >> The gender politics of time are kinda fascinating and have a lot to do, I >> think, with the gender politics of pockets. EG, the wristwatch, invented >> 1868, was at first seen as a woman's accessory. It wasn't really until >> WWI, when the wristwatch was used in the trenches (easier to look at the >> wrist than to root around for one's pocket watch). Later it was used by >> trench officers and artillery officers to coordinate attacks and troop >> movements -- at which point all European armies began mass producing them. >> The troops, at war's end, took the watches home with them. In many ways, >> the popularity of the wristwatch among men owes something to trench >> warfare and to the expediency of not busying a hand by dipping i into a >> pocket. >> >> Men and women first wore watches around their necks. Then men began >> putting them in vest pockets (in 1675), while women kept them on their >> necks or on waist belts (see paintings of Wm Hogarth). Then women put them >> on their wrists (1868) while men kept them in their pockets. I don't know >> what the deal is with women's fashion and the "no pocket" custom, but it's >> kind of fascinating how even now women's clothing has far fewer pockets >> than men's. >> >> The gender politics of the pocket is really fascinating: has something, i >> guess, to do with forced domestication of women: keeping them at home, >> pretending that they have no life of real "utility" (are pockets construed >> as utilitarian?). Time was fashioned/coded as utilitarian concept? >> >> Gabe >> >> -- >> __________________________________ >> http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com >> ---------------------------------- >> Gabriel Gudding >> Department of English >> Illinois State University >> Normal, Illinois 61790 >> 309.438.5284 (office) >> >> >> >> < >> Subject: Re: praise be to the watch >> In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >> Content-Disposition: inline >> >> Gabriel, >> >> I second. Alan. Your piece ticks away. >> >> Murat ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 21:51:04 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Haiku dumbness / snobbishness In-Reply-To: <8C91EAD3AAAB818-1718-1816@WEBMAIL-MA02.sysops.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hrm, i want to understand. you're getting close to me getting it with your talk of genre. but still you're a little too vague for me. genre to me implies that some things can be more haiku like, that there are some things that might be borderline cases of haiku, and THAT strikes me as very interesting. So I'm curious, are any of these four things haiku? rain on march flush on the student body warm santa ana crumples silver paper a cotton lycra weave lifts from plants it catches green colors wax i'd like to know what you would consider a fringe case, because such things really interest me and thinking of haiku as genre rather than form feels a bit epiphanic. so thanks. oh, and as for the point about making a concerted effort to praise haiku rather than say what it isn't, i was referring more to comments in these threads. I'm sure there are all manner of excellent books, i just thought that the tone of the conversation on the poetics list seemed overly focussed on why some things aren't haiku rather than why other things are. Michael Dylan Welch wrote: > Jason, et al, > > I've been away from email, but want to respond to some of the comments about haiku recently. > > To start with, I regard haiku as a genre of poetry, not a form. Form is only one aspect of many aspects of the genre. If you're snide towards form in general, to use your characterization of yourself, then perhaps you don't understand where I'm coming from regarding haiku, because I don't promote any set syllabic form for haiku. So I'm glad to hear that I've persuaded you, at least a little bit, that there's something you're missing out on with haiku. Perhaps others are missing it, too. > > Perhaps too, Jason, you've missed my insistence that a poem is a poem first, and a haiku (or not) only secondarily. If a poem moves me, I couldn't give a flying fig for whether it's a haiku or not. So the problem lies with *claiming* something is a haiku when it clearly misses some of haiku's predominant targets. You say "All manner of people have told me that that's not really haiku, to which my only response can be, okay, so what? so what if they're not haiku?" You seem to think I don't agree with you. Yes indeed, so what? Something can be really effective as a short poem, without regard to whether it's a haiku, even if it happens to be 5-7-5 syllables (which I think is irrrelevant to haiku in English, though some people think it IS relevant). This openness (poetry first, labels later, if at all) is one of my guiding priniciples in editing Tundra: The Journal of the Short Poem, whose contributors have included the following (some of these are forthcoming): Francisco X. A lar > con, Art Beck, Robert Bly, John Brandi, Billy Collins, Ruth Daigon, Doc Dachtler, Dick Davis, Diane di Prima, Tom Disch, Jack Foley, Dana Gioia, Jonathan Greene, Jane Hirshfield, H. L. Hix, Ted Kooser, Richard Kostelanetz, Gerald Locklin, Leza Lowitz, Stefanie Marlis, Samuel Menashe, Paul Nelson, Charles Rossiter, Steve Sanfield, Barry Spacks, Robert Spiess, Robert Sward, Susan Terris, Mike Tuggle, Cor van den Heuvel, Ken Waldman, and many others. I provide this list to lend credence, I hope, to the quality of the short poetry I appreciate. Only two or three of the poets I've just listed are haiku writers, and you will also see a wide spectrum of formalists and experimentalists as well. Poetry first. > > Indeed, so what if a poem isn't a haiku? The *only* problem is when people claim that such poems ARE haiku if they're not. That's all. So if a person doesn't value haiku much, that's something I'm perfectly fine with. It's just that claiming something as haiku if it's very wide of the mark seems sloppy, and even naive in the extreme, like complaining that one's doggerel isn't accepted for publication at the leading poetry journals, yet insisting that one's doggerel is high art. It's *that* disconnect that strikes me as problematic, for both readers and the writer. I'm simply trying to point out that certain people, even if they're not claiming to be emperors, have no clothes on, yet seem to think they're wearing haiku clothes. At one level, who cares? I would like to hope, though, that POETS care, that EDUCATORS care. To think that something is a haiku when it's not can indeed be problematic. In one sense, it's a delusion. In another sense, it perpetuates misunderstandings fo > r those who might be inclined to take the genre more seriously. I am perfectly happy to respect a lack of interest in haiku, but that's distinct from asserting something is haiku (out of naivete?) when it's not. At the very least, as you say, it's simply using the wrong word to call it haiku, but in my experience I've found that there is sometimes a deeper naivete than just using the wrong word because many people are so adamant and think that haiku is 5-7-5 (which is misguided in English), and nothing more (which is also misguided). It's more than just semantics, at least for many people. > > Your experience with learning haiku in school as a 5-7-5 poem is exactly the problem that needs to be corrected. I had the same experience, except it was in high school. The problem lies with the teachers, the curriculum guides, and the textbooks. You are apparently a victim of the problem, and may unwittingly contribute to the perpetuation of the problem. If you hardly cared about haiku, fine, but at least I hope you are now more aware of the issue. > > Where you get to a more valuable point is where you say "instead of convincing, all i seem to get from people like you who do think there is that kind of value in this particular set of conventions is a sort of arrogant browbeating." You may indeed be right there, so the difference may lie in my seeing value, and you not. The truth is that I see great value in it for its own sake, as well as great benefit of haiku techniques to other kinds of writing. You don't need haiku to learn these techniques, but haiku isolates and emphasizes certain techniques of clarity, image, implication, and objective/subjective control, so that's why it can be so helpful. But on its own terms, a haiku can be transcendent, producing a spiritual wholeness for many readers. A haiku may not change the world any more than a good joke gives momentary satisfaction, but there is something THERE, and I do think it gives many people more than just the short diversion of a joke. If you're not wired for ha iku > , fine (I repeat, that's fine). But for many people, a good haiku lifts the tops of their heads off. There's obviously value in it for a lot of people (hence societies, the many journals, and the 4,000+ haiku books in my library, which are but a portion of what's out there). I appreciate that you're not trying to be adversarial, but neither am I. Yet I'm stuck with observing what really is a great disconnect between the reality and perception of haiku poetry. And of course, I presume on this discussion list that people do care about poetics, and I would like to hope that that can include the poetics of haiku. > > Your most excellent point is where you say, "What i'd really like to see is for defenders of the form to make a concerted effort to talk about what it is that they like about it." However, your comment presumes that they haven't done this, whereas I believe they have done this in spades. Consider the five volumes of books that H. F. Noyes has published called "Favorite Haiku," where he does exactly that. By talking about the specific successes of individual poems, the overall gestalt of each of his books is one of why haiku as a genre is successful and appealing. And consider books such as Higginson's *Haiku Handbook* or Gurga's *Haiku: A Poet's Guide*, and several other similar books. This effort is beyond concerted -- it's masterful. The haiku journals regularly include similar commentary as to why haiku is appealing, to the point that it has become old news to those who have been writing in the genre for decades. Yet always there is a new crop for whom it is fresh news, so > the commentary remains useful. As for me, take a look at my "Becoming a Haiku Poet" essay (http://www.haikuworld.org/begin/mdwelch.apr2003.html) and tell me if that doesn't begin to answer the question for you. Or another essay of interest may be "Haiku and the Japanese Garden," online at http://hometown.aol.com/welchm/Haiku-and-the-Japanese-Garden.html. And speaking of Lee Gurga, he has a fine essay on haiku aesthetics at http://www.baymoon.com/~ariadne/form/haiku/haiku.aesthetics.gurga.htm (scroll down a bit). He begins by asking a very sensible question of those who have been writing haiku: "It is unavoidable that we should have some idea of what haiku is. The question then becomes what kind of an idea should it be?" > > What is it I like about haiku? There are so many ways to answer that question, but for me haiku is an approach to infinity, in the way it creates a sense of wholeness and rightness by the careful emotive pairing of juxtaposed elements. The seasonal context adds archetypal meaning and a setting to the poem, but the main technique of implication -- somehow saying the unsaid -- allows reader engagement more than some other types of poetry, or at least in a more concentrated way. No wonder, for good reason, haiku is called an "unfinished poem." I've not heard that said of other genres of poetry. The world of allusion that goes on in good haiku is also an appeal. This is no different from other poetry, of course, but it's a richness that many casual readers of haiku (or those who read only pseudo-haiku) often don't notice. > > A selection of my haiku (with photographs) is online at http://www.brooksbookshaiku.com/welch/. Many of these poems are among my favourites (at least up until about 2000, when this online collection was published). > > It is not my preference to refer to "fake" haiku, versus "real" haiku, though I do like to paraphrase Robert Creeley: "Is that a real haiku, or did you write it yourself?" But I agree that it would be better to spend more attention on what makes the best haiku succeed, rather than dwell on what makes other things fail as haiku. However, I believe the conversation with many poets often has to start with unlearning. They have to back up from the wrong path they've taken, or at least be open to the possibility that they're on the wrong path. Perhaps only then does talking about what makes a good haiku work become more plausible. At least, that's my speculation. But I think it's accurate. The assumptions some people have about haiku are so deeply ingrained that it's hard for them to even begin to appreciate attempts to promote successful haiku. > > Ultimately, Jason, I'm delighted that you've ordered Lee Gurga's book. If that's the limit of your exploration of haiku, that's fine by me. But you are going a world farther than most people. I'm just trying to open the door, even if just a little bit. > > Michael > > > -----Original Message----- > Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 21:02:07 -0800 > From: Jason Quackenbush > Subject: Re: Haiku dumbness / snobbishness > Well, i think the real issue is one of investment and value. You're a person who has devoted a considerable amount of time and energy into a poetic > form, and as such that form has a value for you that it simply doesn't for me, as a person who generally is a little bit snide towards the idea of > form from the get go. I think where the disconnect takes place is that you're mistaking a lack of interest in the minutiae of something that you say > is complex (i'm not saying it's not complex, just that i don't know enough about it to be able to affirm or deny) for naivete, which is a little bit > insulting. I can maybe illustrate with my own experience writing haiku. Like most people at some point in the third or fourth grade, my language arts > teacher introduced the idea of syllables, as well as the idea of poems that don't possess end rhyme, by talking about these short little japanese > poems called haiku that have a 5-7-5 syllable pattern. I think for most people that's the beginning and end of the interest in the form. I know that > it has been largely for me. I've written all manner of poems in a 5-7-5 formula, and all manner of people have told me that that's not really haiku, > to which my only response can be, okay, so what? so what if they're not haiku? if i don't know what the real purpose of a haiku is, and what the real > goal is, and am in fact trying to achieve some other goal and mistakenly calling it haiku, i'm not being naive, i'm just using the wrong word. So i > stop calling it haiku, and we can go about our lives happily enough never discussing it again. However, there's something very peculiar about in > particular the haiku booster that really rubs me the wrong way. almost like some people take a sort of obscene pleasure in "correcting" the mistake of > the less informed. at some point it becaomes as trivial a matter as whether kirk or picard were a superior starship captain. > > so what i'm saying is, i think what in your messages has gotten my back up a bit is the way it's expressed in such an accusatory and aloof manner, as > if haiku is the only way to write a short poem, and that if one is working at the length of haiku there can't possibly be a goal higher than in > realizing the conventions of haiku. being mainly an anti formalist and against the idea of poetic form that can't be expressed in a number of words > fewer than the form permits the poem, i'm skeptical of such claims from the outset. So it takes some convincing for me to buy in to the idea that > there really is something in this constructed form which genuinely warrants societies being dedicated to it, magazines devoted to it, and books > written exploring teh depth of it. But instead of convincing, all i seem to get from people like you who do think there is that kind of value in this > particular set of conventions is a sort of arrogant browbeating about how i don't know anything about the subject and that if i want to talk about it, > i really need to do my homework. > > Well fine, i say, i hate homework so lets just not talk about it. Let teh haiku snob wallow in his penny-ante beat, and i'll roll my eyes and move on > to something that i think genuinely is of value. > > If that makes sense, and I promise you i'm not trying to be adversarial, just trying to sort through the array of emotions and their instigations in > the thread about haiku to date that prompted me to dispatch a snarky email. If you really want my opinion, this last email has gone a longer way > towards getting me interested in haiku than your previous emails which seemed largely concerned with showing how some poems claiming to be haiku are > not in fact. > > What i'd really like to see is for defenders of the form to make a concerted effort to talk about what it is that they like about it. What is it about > the seasonal words and juxtapositions that you find in haiku that make them so essential and raises this above other forms like, for example, an > aubade? I think maybe you'd get farther with snide jackasses like me if you focussed more on the positive argument for real haiku rather than the > negative argument against fake haiku. Because i generally don't find things that are defined primarily by contrast to things which they are not to be > particularly interesting. birds are cool because they have wings, not because they don't have gills, y'know? > > All of that having been said, i want to let you know that I really appreciate the sincerity and tone of your last email, and I want you to know that > by it, you've aroused a curiosity in me about the form that did not exist when i snarkily suggest that haiku be relegated to mystery cults. There's > very little as effective as the sincere expression of passion for a topic to make another person sympathetic to investigating it. I've ordered Gurga's > book, and am looking forward to reading it. I don't know if i'll become a haiku fanatic, or even if i'll ever try to write a haiku, but you've swayed > me to thinking that maybe there's something i'm missing out on, and that's a tactic that is very effective with me. > ________________________________________________________________________ > Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 22:21:35 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Haiku dumbness / snobbishness In-Reply-To: <8C91EAD3AAAB818-1718-1816@WEBMAIL-MA02.sysops.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Furthermore, I want to thank you for linking to that essay by Gurga. While I think i disagree with a lot of what he says, being generally skeptical of ideas like "poetic truth" etc., there's certainly a lot to think about. More importantly though, I think that in his treatment of "zappai" we have a possible resolution for the issue of "fake haiku" that's been the focus of the discussion on the list over the last couple of weeks. Particularly his statement here: "While the term zappai is unfamiliar to most American students of haiku, I believe its adoption will provide us with a useful category to help us understand that while much of what is being written today under the name of haiku is not genuine haiku, it is still a legitimate part of the haikai tradition. Those who object to the introduction of this term might simply want to use the term "pseudo-haiku" to categorize the poems I am describing here." makes a lot of sense to me. Certainly calling a poem like this: Worker bees can leave, Even drones can fly away. The Queen is their slave. a haiku is a mistake. But still, i don't think chuck palahniuks little doggerel would exist if haiku didn't, and the idea of seeing a seventeen syllable quip like that as part of a larger haiku tradition makes sense. I wonder if whether or not some of the american confusion about what a haiku is doesn't have something to do with what Gurga says was a popular form of poetic entertainment in late Edo Japan, particularly since the late Edo period marks the first really extensive cultural cross pollinaztion between japan and the west. then again, i do like the idea of calling them macedonia too. no reason, of course, they can't be both. Michael Dylan Welch wrote: > Jason, et al, > > I've been away from email, but want to respond to some of the comments about haiku recently. > > To start with, I regard haiku as a genre of poetry, not a form. Form is only one aspect of many aspects of the genre. If you're snide towards form in general, to use your characterization of yourself, then perhaps you don't understand where I'm coming from regarding haiku, because I don't promote any set syllabic form for haiku. So I'm glad to hear that I've persuaded you, at least a little bit, that there's something you're missing out on with haiku. Perhaps others are missing it, too. > > Perhaps too, Jason, you've missed my insistence that a poem is a poem first, and a haiku (or not) only secondarily. If a poem moves me, I couldn't give a flying fig for whether it's a haiku or not. So the problem lies with *claiming* something is a haiku when it clearly misses some of haiku's predominant targets. You say "All manner of people have told me that that's not really haiku, to which my only response can be, okay, so what? so what if they're not haiku?" You seem to think I don't agree with you. Yes indeed, so what? Something can be really effective as a short poem, without regard to whether it's a haiku, even if it happens to be 5-7-5 syllables (which I think is irrrelevant to haiku in English, though some people think it IS relevant). This openness (poetry first, labels later, if at all) is one of my guiding priniciples in editing Tundra: The Journal of the Short Poem, whose contributors have included the following (some of these are forthcoming): Francisco X. A lar > con, Art Beck, Robert Bly, John Brandi, Billy Collins, Ruth Daigon, Doc Dachtler, Dick Davis, Diane di Prima, Tom Disch, Jack Foley, Dana Gioia, Jonathan Greene, Jane Hirshfield, H. L. Hix, Ted Kooser, Richard Kostelanetz, Gerald Locklin, Leza Lowitz, Stefanie Marlis, Samuel Menashe, Paul Nelson, Charles Rossiter, Steve Sanfield, Barry Spacks, Robert Spiess, Robert Sward, Susan Terris, Mike Tuggle, Cor van den Heuvel, Ken Waldman, and many others. I provide this list to lend credence, I hope, to the quality of the short poetry I appreciate. Only two or three of the poets I've just listed are haiku writers, and you will also see a wide spectrum of formalists and experimentalists as well. Poetry first. > > Indeed, so what if a poem isn't a haiku? The *only* problem is when people claim that such poems ARE haiku if they're not. That's all. So if a person doesn't value haiku much, that's something I'm perfectly fine with. It's just that claiming something as haiku if it's very wide of the mark seems sloppy, and even naive in the extreme, like complaining that one's doggerel isn't accepted for publication at the leading poetry journals, yet insisting that one's doggerel is high art. It's *that* disconnect that strikes me as problematic, for both readers and the writer. I'm simply trying to point out that certain people, even if they're not claiming to be emperors, have no clothes on, yet seem to think they're wearing haiku clothes. At one level, who cares? I would like to hope, though, that POETS care, that EDUCATORS care. To think that something is a haiku when it's not can indeed be problematic. In one sense, it's a delusion. In another sense, it perpetuates misunderstandings fo > r those who might be inclined to take the genre more seriously. I am perfectly happy to respect a lack of interest in haiku, but that's distinct from asserting something is haiku (out of naivete?) when it's not. At the very least, as you say, it's simply using the wrong word to call it haiku, but in my experience I've found that there is sometimes a deeper naivete than just using the wrong word because many people are so adamant and think that haiku is 5-7-5 (which is misguided in English), and nothing more (which is also misguided). It's more than just semantics, at least for many people. > > Your experience with learning haiku in school as a 5-7-5 poem is exactly the problem that needs to be corrected. I had the same experience, except it was in high school. The problem lies with the teachers, the curriculum guides, and the textbooks. You are apparently a victim of the problem, and may unwittingly contribute to the perpetuation of the problem. If you hardly cared about haiku, fine, but at least I hope you are now more aware of the issue. > > Where you get to a more valuable point is where you say "instead of convincing, all i seem to get from people like you who do think there is that kind of value in this particular set of conventions is a sort of arrogant browbeating." You may indeed be right there, so the difference may lie in my seeing value, and you not. The truth is that I see great value in it for its own sake, as well as great benefit of haiku techniques to other kinds of writing. You don't need haiku to learn these techniques, but haiku isolates and emphasizes certain techniques of clarity, image, implication, and objective/subjective control, so that's why it can be so helpful. But on its own terms, a haiku can be transcendent, producing a spiritual wholeness for many readers. A haiku may not change the world any more than a good joke gives momentary satisfaction, but there is something THERE, and I do think it gives many people more than just the short diversion of a joke. If you're not wired for ha iku > , fine (I repeat, that's fine). But for many people, a good haiku lifts the tops of their heads off. There's obviously value in it for a lot of people (hence societies, the many journals, and the 4,000+ haiku books in my library, which are but a portion of what's out there). I appreciate that you're not trying to be adversarial, but neither am I. Yet I'm stuck with observing what really is a great disconnect between the reality and perception of haiku poetry. And of course, I presume on this discussion list that people do care about poetics, and I would like to hope that that can include the poetics of haiku. > > Your most excellent point is where you say, "What i'd really like to see is for defenders of the form to make a concerted effort to talk about what it is that they like about it." However, your comment presumes that they haven't done this, whereas I believe they have done this in spades. Consider the five volumes of books that H. F. Noyes has published called "Favorite Haiku," where he does exactly that. By talking about the specific successes of individual poems, the overall gestalt of each of his books is one of why haiku as a genre is successful and appealing. And consider books such as Higginson's *Haiku Handbook* or Gurga's *Haiku: A Poet's Guide*, and several other similar books. This effort is beyond concerted -- it's masterful. The haiku journals regularly include similar commentary as to why haiku is appealing, to the point that it has become old news to those who have been writing in the genre for decades. Yet always there is a new crop for whom it is fresh news, so > the commentary remains useful. As for me, take a look at my "Becoming a Haiku Poet" essay (http://www.haikuworld.org/begin/mdwelch.apr2003.html) and tell me if that doesn't begin to answer the question for you. Or another essay of interest may be "Haiku and the Japanese Garden," online at http://hometown.aol.com/welchm/Haiku-and-the-Japanese-Garden.html. And speaking of Lee Gurga, he has a fine essay on haiku aesthetics at http://www.baymoon.com/~ariadne/form/haiku/haiku.aesthetics.gurga.htm (scroll down a bit). He begins by asking a very sensible question of those who have been writing haiku: "It is unavoidable that we should have some idea of what haiku is. The question then becomes what kind of an idea should it be?" > > What is it I like about haiku? There are so many ways to answer that question, but for me haiku is an approach to infinity, in the way it creates a sense of wholeness and rightness by the careful emotive pairing of juxtaposed elements. The seasonal context adds archetypal meaning and a setting to the poem, but the main technique of implication -- somehow saying the unsaid -- allows reader engagement more than some other types of poetry, or at least in a more concentrated way. No wonder, for good reason, haiku is called an "unfinished poem." I've not heard that said of other genres of poetry. The world of allusion that goes on in good haiku is also an appeal. This is no different from other poetry, of course, but it's a richness that many casual readers of haiku (or those who read only pseudo-haiku) often don't notice. > > A selection of my haiku (with photographs) is online at http://www.brooksbookshaiku.com/welch/. Many of these poems are among my favourites (at least up until about 2000, when this online collection was published). > > It is not my preference to refer to "fake" haiku, versus "real" haiku, though I do like to paraphrase Robert Creeley: "Is that a real haiku, or did you write it yourself?" But I agree that it would be better to spend more attention on what makes the best haiku succeed, rather than dwell on what makes other things fail as haiku. However, I believe the conversation with many poets often has to start with unlearning. They have to back up from the wrong path they've taken, or at least be open to the possibility that they're on the wrong path. Perhaps only then does talking about what makes a good haiku work become more plausible. At least, that's my speculation. But I think it's accurate. The assumptions some people have about haiku are so deeply ingrained that it's hard for them to even begin to appreciate attempts to promote successful haiku. > > Ultimately, Jason, I'm delighted that you've ordered Lee Gurga's book. If that's the limit of your exploration of haiku, that's fine by me. But you are going a world farther than most people. I'm just trying to open the door, even if just a little bit. > > Michael > > > -----Original Message----- > Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 21:02:07 -0800 > From: Jason Quackenbush > Subject: Re: Haiku dumbness / snobbishness > Well, i think the real issue is one of investment and value. You're a person who has devoted a considerable amount of time and energy into a poetic > form, and as such that form has a value for you that it simply doesn't for me, as a person who generally is a little bit snide towards the idea of > form from the get go. I think where the disconnect takes place is that you're mistaking a lack of interest in the minutiae of something that you say > is complex (i'm not saying it's not complex, just that i don't know enough about it to be able to affirm or deny) for naivete, which is a little bit > insulting. I can maybe illustrate with my own experience writing haiku. Like most people at some point in the third or fourth grade, my language arts > teacher introduced the idea of syllables, as well as the idea of poems that don't possess end rhyme, by talking about these short little japanese > poems called haiku that have a 5-7-5 syllable pattern. I think for most people that's the beginning and end of the interest in the form. I know that > it has been largely for me. I've written all manner of poems in a 5-7-5 formula, and all manner of people have told me that that's not really haiku, > to which my only response can be, okay, so what? so what if they're not haiku? if i don't know what the real purpose of a haiku is, and what the real > goal is, and am in fact trying to achieve some other goal and mistakenly calling it haiku, i'm not being naive, i'm just using the wrong word. So i > stop calling it haiku, and we can go about our lives happily enough never discussing it again. However, there's something very peculiar about in > particular the haiku booster that really rubs me the wrong way. almost like some people take a sort of obscene pleasure in "correcting" the mistake of > the less informed. at some point it becaomes as trivial a matter as whether kirk or picard were a superior starship captain. > > so what i'm saying is, i think what in your messages has gotten my back up a bit is the way it's expressed in such an accusatory and aloof manner, as > if haiku is the only way to write a short poem, and that if one is working at the length of haiku there can't possibly be a goal higher than in > realizing the conventions of haiku. being mainly an anti formalist and against the idea of poetic form that can't be expressed in a number of words > fewer than the form permits the poem, i'm skeptical of such claims from the outset. So it takes some convincing for me to buy in to the idea that > there really is something in this constructed form which genuinely warrants societies being dedicated to it, magazines devoted to it, and books > written exploring teh depth of it. But instead of convincing, all i seem to get from people like you who do think there is that kind of value in this > particular set of conventions is a sort of arrogant browbeating about how i don't know anything about the subject and that if i want to talk about it, > i really need to do my homework. > > Well fine, i say, i hate homework so lets just not talk about it. Let teh haiku snob wallow in his penny-ante beat, and i'll roll my eyes and move on > to something that i think genuinely is of value. > > If that makes sense, and I promise you i'm not trying to be adversarial, just trying to sort through the array of emotions and their instigations in > the thread about haiku to date that prompted me to dispatch a snarky email. If you really want my opinion, this last email has gone a longer way > towards getting me interested in haiku than your previous emails which seemed largely concerned with showing how some poems claiming to be haiku are > not in fact. > > What i'd really like to see is for defenders of the form to make a concerted effort to talk about what it is that they like about it. What is it about > the seasonal words and juxtapositions that you find in haiku that make them so essential and raises this above other forms like, for example, an > aubade? I think maybe you'd get farther with snide jackasses like me if you focussed more on the positive argument for real haiku rather than the > negative argument against fake haiku. Because i generally don't find things that are defined primarily by contrast to things which they are not to be > particularly interesting. birds are cool because they have wings, not because they don't have gills, y'know? > > All of that having been said, i want to let you know that I really appreciate the sincerity and tone of your last email, and I want you to know that > by it, you've aroused a curiosity in me about the form that did not exist when i snarkily suggest that haiku be relegated to mystery cults. There's > very little as effective as the sincere expression of passion for a topic to make another person sympathetic to investigating it. I've ordered Gurga's > book, and am looking forward to reading it. I don't know if i'll become a haiku fanatic, or even if i'll ever try to write a haiku, but you've swayed > me to thinking that maybe there's something i'm missing out on, and that's a tactic that is very effective with me. > ________________________________________________________________________ > Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 02:27:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: MESSAGE-ID field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: George Quasha Subject: Quasha this week at Baumgartner, White Box, ZONE Chelsea, & CAA ARTspace Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-7C171ED2; boundary="=======AVGMAIL-45D40B4D744B=======" --=======AVGMAIL-45D40B4D744B======= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-7C171ED2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Four venues where I'll be exhibiting and, at CAA, speaking this week in NYC: 1. Axial Stones on exhibit in a group show at: BAUMGARTNER GALLERY : from Friday Feb. 16th till end of Feb. 522 W 24th Street, New York, NY 10011 Tuesday =96 Saturday; 12 =96 6 PM 212-242-4514 2. art is: Speaking Portraits (in the performative indicative) -- video= --at: WHITE BOX (on the video box): Feb. 13-17 525 W. 26th St. | NY, NY 10001 | t: 212.714.2347 | f: 212.714.2354 Viewing Hours: Tuesday thru Saturday, 11am-6pm Directions: F/V, 1/2/3, C/E to 23rd St. Take the=20 M23 to 10th Ave. Walk north to 26th St., between 10th and 11th Aves. 3. Axial Drawings on exhibit in a group show at: ZONE Chelsea Center for the Arts: February 17-March 31, 2007 601 West 26th Street, #302 New York, NY 10001 Tel: 212-255-2177 www.zonechelsea.org info@zonechelsea.org Tue-Sat (11am =96 6pm) 4. Speaking on a CAA panel with Peter Halley and=20 Faith Ringgold : Friday, Feb. 16--9:30-noon. College Art Association Conference -- ARTspace [open free to the public]: Hilton New York, Murray Hill Suite, 2nd Floor, 1335 Avenue of the Americas (6th Avenue at 53rd St.) my piece: Inevitable Liminality: Oscillating Histories with Thomas McEvilley More details: ZONE Chelsea Collections 2007 February 17-March 31, 2007 ZONE: Chelsea Center for the Arts is proud to=20 present ZC Collections 2007. Artists include John Cage, Edward Clark, Chuck Close, Molly=20 Davies, Max Goldfarb, Christopher Haun, Donald=20 Judd, Rainer Judd, Elaine de Kooning, Henri=20 Matisse, Jackie Matisse, Richard Mayhew, Mario=20 Mertz, Robert Motherwell, Nobuho Nagasawa, Nam=20 June Paik, George Quasha, Allyson Strafella, Pat Steir and Andy Warhol. ZC Collections 2007 is open to the public=20 February 17-24 from 12 pm- 8 pm. During this=20 week, ZONE will also present Molly Davies=92=20 video/sound installation Bars in a select=20 shipping container at 531 West 26th Street=20 between 10th and 11th Avenues as part of DiVA Streets. February 26 - March 31 Gallery Hours will resume=20 from 11 am to 6 pm, Tuesday through Saturday.=20 ZONE: Chelsea Center for the Arts is located at=20 601 West 26th Street #302, New York, NY=20 10001. For more information call 212.255.2177 or=20 visit www.zonechelsea.org. --=20 George Quasha Barrytown/Station Hill Press, Inc. (The Institute for Publishing Arts, Inc.) 124 Station Hill Road, Barrytown, NY 12507 Home: (845) 758-5291 http://www.quasha.com http://www.stationhill.org --=======AVGMAIL-45D40B4D744B======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg=cert; charset=us-ascii; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-7C171ED2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Content-Description: "AVG certification" No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.17.39/687 - Release Date: 2/14/2007 4= :17 PM --=======AVGMAIL-45D40B4D744B=======-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 06:46:55 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ann Bogle Subject: Ana Verse Comments: cc: AnnMargaretBogle@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ana Verse is the new title for my blog, still located at _http://annbogle.blogspot.com_ (http://annbogle.blogspot.com) . I changed the name to evade the stargazers who were after Ann-Margret, the actress. It was interesting, for a year, to note on site meter what their interests in her is: things about her father, whether she has children, and to see her naked. Visitors, do feel free to poke around and comment. I am intent on solving puzzles of genre, especially of short forms. There are flaws, and it is proceeding, and always changing. Two designations I barely mention in all my categorizations are "narrative" and "essay." I use different tags on a list; I am trying to isolate impulse. Audience is a stealthier topic, one of the main ones I am considering -- how to know them. Ana Verse by Ann Bogle -- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 12:01:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: the politics of the pocket -- (was watch thread) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed As usual, gender distinctions are a lot more complicated. My books are still in storage, so I'll have to wing it a bit--for instance, I have no idea when pockets began to be sewn in clothes (did Romans have them?), but I think rather late in Europe, say 16th or 17th century. And there are class distinctions: Pepys had pockets, but also carried a purse, because the pockets didn't hold much. Did the mass of men, whose pants were made at home, routinely have pockets sewn in? Women did have pockets, in the form of small bags called, of all things, pockets, that were tied around the waist instead of sewn into the skirt, and in which, if they were literate, they often carried books. They were worn among the petticoats, under the skirt, which had a slit for easy access.They were usually cloth, unlike, say, the leather sporran that men in kilts wear. They fell out of fashion when women started wearing less clothes. It's modern women who are deprived of pockets. On the continent at least working women (almost all women were working women) often wore an apron tied around their waists. The apron had pockets sewn in. "The gender politics of the pocket is really fascinating: has something, i guess, to do with forced domestication of women: keeping them at home, pretending that they have no life of real "utility" (are pockets construed as utilitarian?)." What women are we talking about? Certainly not the vast majority, who slaved on farms no less than their mates, and when a farming economy could no longer support them slaved in factories. On timepieces--I hate wearing anything on my wrists, so for years I used a pocket watch. Until I noticed that in New York I was never very far from a public clock. Now my cellphone display tells me the time, as my computer, stove, microwave, and alarm clock do at home. There seems less and less reason to carry a watch. except for scuba diving, when small amounts of time are a matter of life and death. Mark At 09:52 PM 2/14/2007, you wrote: >Curious to remember in the sixties when many of us stopped wearing watches, >at all. As in who wanted to march to the corporate drum, it's terrible, >regimented, soul killing clock. (I don't know if that has changed!) And, in >light of Gabriel's militarismo connection, who wanted to go to Vietnam and >wear a watch in a trench or, to go on a "well-timed" bombing mission. The >wrist watch seemed synchronized with death on all levels (public, personal >and spiritual). (There was the late sixties, Chamber's Brother's song, >"Time Has Come Today, young hearts can go their way > Can't put it off another day I don't care what others say ... > with the haunting refrain: 'Time' 'Time', 'Time'. Which seemed to be much >more than about romance, and more about beating back the clock) > >But the reference, too, to the pocket, the lack of them on women's >vestments. The pocket book was first created by Aldus in Venice -who created >italic type to fit the format - in the sixteenth century. (I believe his >first pocketbooks were for the works of Virgil and Horace.) But clearly - >through the whole history of the "pocketbook", the pocketbooks have never >fit into women's clothes (that I know of). Women had to, and probably still >have to, be in male drag to put a book in a pocket - say a trench coat, >popular among young women in the sixties . (woops, "trenchcoat" = military >connection, again). Well, certain larger purses and backpacks do >accommodate. > >As Gloria Frym brings up, the history of the Europe and the west altering >concepts of time in the colonies is also interesting. The Igbos in Nigeria, >for example, had a four day week - one that coincided with market days, I >believe. Europe and Christianity and capitalism brought the 7 day week. I >think this scenario of expanding days played out across Latin America as >well. > >The clock is capitalism's bazooka - someone said that. And religion's - >Christ and his cathedral bells. > >Course, inevitably, in terms of poetry, this all plays into arguments around >the tick-tock yoke of formalism, and related repressive political >formations. (John Cage and Steve Reich, for examples, seem to be all about >breaching that western formal sense of time). > >Actually - to indulge a contradiction here - a well-used clock may liberate >much interesting work and play, and poems, too. > >Go, Gabriel - fourth down and ten to goal and 15 seconds left on the clock. > >Stephen V >http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > > > > > > > > Hi Gabriel, > > There's an incredible section of Jamaica Kinkaid's A Small Island > on tourism > > in the Caribbean, specifically her native Antigua, in which she speaks of > > the wrist watch as the colonial, nee British, way of owning and controlling > > and reducing time. > > > > Gloria Frym > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Gabriel Gudding" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 5:23 PM > > Subject: the politics of the pocket -- (was watch thread) > > > > > >> Thanks Murat and Ravi. > >> > >> And, Ravi, thanks for forwarding yr v cool musings about the watch. > >> > >> The gender politics of time are kinda fascinating and have a lot to do, I > >> think, with the gender politics of pockets. EG, the wristwatch, invented > >> 1868, was at first seen as a woman's accessory. It wasn't really until > >> WWI, when the wristwatch was used in the trenches (easier to look at the > >> wrist than to root around for one's pocket watch). Later it was used by > >> trench officers and artillery officers to coordinate attacks and troop > >> movements -- at which point all European armies began mass producing them. > >> The troops, at war's end, took the watches home with them. In many ways, > >> the popularity of the wristwatch among men owes something to trench > >> warfare and to the expediency of not busying a hand by dipping i into a > >> pocket. > >> > >> Men and women first wore watches around their necks. Then men began > >> putting them in vest pockets (in 1675), while women kept them on their > >> necks or on waist belts (see paintings of Wm Hogarth). Then women put them > >> on their wrists (1868) while men kept them in their pockets. I don't know > >> what the deal is with women's fashion and the "no pocket" custom, but it's > >> kind of fascinating how even now women's clothing has far fewer pockets > >> than men's. > >> > >> The gender politics of the pocket is really fascinating: has something, i > >> guess, to do with forced domestication of women: keeping them at home, > >> pretending that they have no life of real "utility" (are pockets construed > >> as utilitarian?). Time was fashioned/coded as utilitarian concept? > >> > >> Gabe > >> > >> -- > >> __________________________________ > >> http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com > >> ---------------------------------- > >> Gabriel Gudding > >> Department of English > >> Illinois State University > >> Normal, Illinois 61790 > >> 309.438.5284 (office) > >> > >> > >> > >> < > >> Subject: Re: praise be to the watch > >> In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > >> Content-Disposition: inline > >> > >> Gabriel, > >> > >> I second. Alan. Your piece ticks away. > >> > >> Murat ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 12:23:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: heidi arnold Subject: call for poems: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hello, -- for an hour of radio, i'm putting together a series of poems on martyrdom/scapegoats/terrorists/radical othering -- this will have an activist bent, i hope -- but am open to your suggestions and thank you for the enlightening discussion on the previous thread -- specific details and a featured link will be sent to the list when they are available -- poems on Lincoln, MLK, Nazim Hikmet, and many others sought -- i am also going through the list of previous suggestions and will include those -- -- if list members have poems they'd like to submit, published, or unpublished, please send them along in the body of an e-mail -- i will review things as they come in -- i'd like to get a sense of the number of subs from the list as soon as possible -- either sending subs to the entire list or just to me is ok -- -- i have a background working in academic publishing -- if you'd like current details on this specific project, contact me offlist -- best to all, heidi -- www.heidiarnold.org http://peaceraptor.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 09:52:19 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: the politics of the pocket -- (was watch thread) In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20070215112805.060459a0@earthlink.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > As usual, gender distinctions are a lot more complicated. My books > are still in storage, so I'll have to wing it a bit--for instance, I > have no idea when pockets began to be sewn in clothes (did Romans > have them?), but I think rather late in Europe, say 16th or 17th > century. In the sixteenth century when Aldus - with his italic type - was able to design portable books (most likely for the traveling educated merchant, barrister and so forth - I am not sure that they were actually carried in pockets, or in a satchel or male purse of some sort. Women, as Mark suggests here, could carry the small books in a bag about their waist, in a flat leather purse that could hang by a strap either around the neck, or safely hid inside, if necessary, as part of the woman's bustle, and probably under a man's vest, as well. By the sixteenth century religious books that might identify one as Protestant, or of an offending sect, they could be designed to be purposively tiny to fit and be carried, hidden below the neck (where, assumedly, jewels and other valuables could also be carried. (Talk about "clothes' horses"). Yes, Mark is right, the cell phone and computer are now the principal instruments of dictating time, as well as time's costs and dictates. Stephen V http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ >And there are class distinctions: Pepys had pockets, but > also carried a purse, because the pockets didn't hold much. Did the > mass of men, whose pants were made at home, routinely have pockets sewn in? > > Women did have pockets, in the form of small bags called, of all > things, pockets, that were tied around the waist instead of sewn into > the skirt, and in which, if they were literate, they often carried > books. They were worn among the petticoats, under the skirt, which > had a slit for easy access.They were usually cloth, unlike, say, the > leather sporran that men in kilts wear. They fell out of fashion when > women started wearing less clothes. It's modern women who are > deprived of pockets. > > On the continent at least working women (almost all women were > working women) often wore an apron tied around their waists. The > apron had pockets sewn in. > > "The gender politics of the pocket is really fascinating: has > something, i guess, to do with forced domestication of women: keeping > them at home, pretending that they have no life of real "utility" > (are pockets construed as utilitarian?)." What women are we talking > about? Certainly not the vast majority, who slaved on farms no less > than their mates, and when a farming economy could no longer support > them slaved in factories. > > On timepieces--I hate wearing anything on my wrists, so for years I > used a pocket watch. Until I noticed that in New York I was never > very far from a public clock. Now my cellphone display tells me the > time, as my computer, stove, microwave, and alarm clock do at home. > There seems less and less reason to carry a watch. except for scuba > diving, when small amounts of time are a matter of life and death. > > Mark > > > > > At 09:52 PM 2/14/2007, you wrote: >> Curious to remember in the sixties when many of us stopped wearing watches, >> at all. As in who wanted to march to the corporate drum, it's terrible, >> regimented, soul killing clock. (I don't know if that has changed!) And, in >> light of Gabriel's militarismo connection, who wanted to go to Vietnam and >> wear a watch in a trench or, to go on a "well-timed" bombing mission. The >> wrist watch seemed synchronized with death on all levels (public, personal >> and spiritual). (There was the late sixties, Chamber's Brother's song, >> "Time Has Come Today, young hearts can go their way >> Can't put it off another day I don't care what others say ... >> with the haunting refrain: 'Time' 'Time', 'Time'. Which seemed to be much >> more than about romance, and more about beating back the clock) >> >> But the reference, too, to the pocket, the lack of them on women's >> vestments. The pocket book was first created by Aldus in Venice -who created >> italic type to fit the format - in the sixteenth century. (I believe his >> first pocketbooks were for the works of Virgil and Horace.) But clearly - >> through the whole history of the "pocketbook", the pocketbooks have never >> fit into women's clothes (that I know of). Women had to, and probably still >> have to, be in male drag to put a book in a pocket - say a trench coat, >> popular among young women in the sixties . (woops, "trenchcoat" = military >> connection, again). Well, certain larger purses and backpacks do >> accommodate. >> >> As Gloria Frym brings up, the history of the Europe and the west altering >> concepts of time in the colonies is also interesting. The Igbos in Nigeria, >> for example, had a four day week - one that coincided with market days, I >> believe. Europe and Christianity and capitalism brought the 7 day week. I >> think this scenario of expanding days played out across Latin America as >> well. >> >> The clock is capitalism's bazooka - someone said that. And religion's - >> Christ and his cathedral bells. >> >> Course, inevitably, in terms of poetry, this all plays into arguments around >> the tick-tock yoke of formalism, and related repressive political >> formations. (John Cage and Steve Reich, for examples, seem to be all about >> breaching that western formal sense of time). >> >> Actually - to indulge a contradiction here - a well-used clock may liberate >> much interesting work and play, and poems, too. >> >> Go, Gabriel - fourth down and ten to goal and 15 seconds left on the clock. >> >> Stephen V >> http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> Hi Gabriel, >>> There's an incredible section of Jamaica Kinkaid's A Small Island >> on tourism >>> in the Caribbean, specifically her native Antigua, in which she speaks of >>> the wrist watch as the colonial, nee British, way of owning and controlling >>> and reducing time. >>> >>> Gloria Frym >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Gabriel Gudding" >>> To: >>> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 5:23 PM >>> Subject: the politics of the pocket -- (was watch thread) >>> >>> >>>> Thanks Murat and Ravi. >>>> >>>> And, Ravi, thanks for forwarding yr v cool musings about the watch. >>>> >>>> The gender politics of time are kinda fascinating and have a lot to do, I >>>> think, with the gender politics of pockets. EG, the wristwatch, invented >>>> 1868, was at first seen as a woman's accessory. It wasn't really until >>>> WWI, when the wristwatch was used in the trenches (easier to look at the >>>> wrist than to root around for one's pocket watch). Later it was used by >>>> trench officers and artillery officers to coordinate attacks and troop >>>> movements -- at which point all European armies began mass producing them. >>>> The troops, at war's end, took the watches home with them. In many ways, >>>> the popularity of the wristwatch among men owes something to trench >>>> warfare and to the expediency of not busying a hand by dipping i into a >>>> pocket. >>>> >>>> Men and women first wore watches around their necks. Then men began >>>> putting them in vest pockets (in 1675), while women kept them on their >>>> necks or on waist belts (see paintings of Wm Hogarth). Then women put them >>>> on their wrists (1868) while men kept them in their pockets. I don't know >>>> what the deal is with women's fashion and the "no pocket" custom, but it's >>>> kind of fascinating how even now women's clothing has far fewer pockets >>>> than men's. >>>> >>>> The gender politics of the pocket is really fascinating: has something, i >>>> guess, to do with forced domestication of women: keeping them at home, >>>> pretending that they have no life of real "utility" (are pockets construed >>>> as utilitarian?). Time was fashioned/coded as utilitarian concept? >>>> >>>> Gabe >>>> >>>> -- >>>> __________________________________ >>>> http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com >>>> ---------------------------------- >>>> Gabriel Gudding >>>> Department of English >>>> Illinois State University >>>> Normal, Illinois 61790 >>>> 309.438.5284 (office) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> < >>>> Subject: Re: praise be to the watch >>>> In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >>>> Content-Disposition: inline >>>> >>>> Gabriel, >>>> >>>> I second. Alan. Your piece ticks away. >>>> >>>> Murat ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 12:09:31 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: the politics of the pocket -- (was watch thread) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This thread--reminding me suddenly of a joke told me by a Serbian friend years ago and having to do with watches and their related lingo. 1st speaker: "Which watch?" 2nd speaker (looking at his/her wristwatch): "Six watch." 1st speaker (aghast): "Ah, such much watch." Hal Today's Specials Guide to the Tokyo Subway, poems by Halvard Johnson The Body Parts Shop, stories by Lynda Schor Now available from Hamilton Stone Editions and FC2 (for Schor) -- and at a website (Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Alibris, Powells, etc.) near you. Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com halvard@earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Feb 14, 2007, at 8:52 PM, Stephen Vincent wrote: > Curious to remember in the sixties when many of us stopped wearing > watches, > at all. As in who wanted to march to the corporate drum, it's > terrible, > regimented, soul killing clock. (I don't know if that has changed!) > And, in > light of Gabriel's militarismo connection, who wanted to go to > Vietnam and > wear a watch in a trench or, to go on a "well-timed" bombing > mission. The > wrist watch seemed synchronized with death on all levels (public, > personal > and spiritual). (There was the late sixties, Chamber's Brother's song, > "Time Has Come Today, young hearts can go their way > Can't put it off another day I don't care what others say ... > with the haunting refrain: 'Time' 'Time', 'Time'. Which seemed > to be much > more than about romance, and more about beating back the clock) > > But the reference, too, to the pocket, the lack of them on women's > vestments. The pocket book was first created by Aldus in Venice - > who created > italic type to fit the format - in the sixteenth century. (I > believe his > first pocketbooks were for the works of Virgil and Horace.) But > clearly - > through the whole history of the "pocketbook", the pocketbooks have > never > fit into women's clothes (that I know of). Women had to, and > probably still > have to, be in male drag to put a book in a pocket - say a trench > coat, > popular among young women in the sixties . (woops, "trenchcoat" = > military > connection, again). Well, certain larger purses and backpacks do > accommodate. > > As Gloria Frym brings up, the history of the Europe and the west > altering > concepts of time in the colonies is also interesting. The Igbos in > Nigeria, > for example, had a four day week - one that coincided with market > days, I > believe. Europe and Christianity and capitalism brought the 7 day > week. I > think this scenario of expanding days played out across Latin > America as > well. > > The clock is capitalism's bazooka - someone said that. And > religion's - > Christ and his cathedral bells. > > Course, inevitably, in terms of poetry, this all plays into > arguments around > the tick-tock yoke of formalism, and related repressive political > formations. (John Cage and Steve Reich, for examples, seem to be > all about > breaching that western formal sense of time). > > Actually - to indulge a contradiction here - a well-used clock may > liberate > much interesting work and play, and poems, too. > > Go, Gabriel - fourth down and ten to goal and 15 seconds left on > the clock. > > Stephen V > http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > > > > > > >> Hi Gabriel, >> There's an incredible section of Jamaica Kinkaid's A Small Island >> on tourism >> in the Caribbean, specifically her native Antigua, in which she >> speaks of >> the wrist watch as the colonial, nee British, way of owning and >> controlling >> and reducing time. >> >> Gloria Frym >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Gabriel Gudding" >> To: >> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 5:23 PM >> Subject: the politics of the pocket -- (was watch thread) >> >> >>> Thanks Murat and Ravi. >>> >>> And, Ravi, thanks for forwarding yr v cool musings about the watch. >>> >>> The gender politics of time are kinda fascinating and have a lot >>> to do, I >>> think, with the gender politics of pockets. EG, the wristwatch, >>> invented >>> 1868, was at first seen as a woman's accessory. It wasn't really >>> until >>> WWI, when the wristwatch was used in the trenches (easier to look >>> at the >>> wrist than to root around for one's pocket watch). Later it was >>> used by >>> trench officers and artillery officers to coordinate attacks and >>> troop >>> movements -- at which point all European armies began mass >>> producing them. >>> The troops, at war's end, took the watches home with them. In >>> many ways, >>> the popularity of the wristwatch among men owes something to trench >>> warfare and to the expediency of not busying a hand by dipping i >>> into a >>> pocket. >>> >>> Men and women first wore watches around their necks. Then men began >>> putting them in vest pockets (in 1675), while women kept them on >>> their >>> necks or on waist belts (see paintings of Wm Hogarth). Then women >>> put them >>> on their wrists (1868) while men kept them in their pockets. I >>> don't know >>> what the deal is with women's fashion and the "no pocket" custom, >>> but it's >>> kind of fascinating how even now women's clothing has far fewer >>> pockets >>> than men's. >>> >>> The gender politics of the pocket is really fascinating: has >>> something, i >>> guess, to do with forced domestication of women: keeping them at >>> home, >>> pretending that they have no life of real "utility" (are pockets >>> construed >>> as utilitarian?). Time was fashioned/coded as utilitarian concept? >>> >>> Gabe >>> >>> -- >>> __________________________________ >>> http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com >>> ---------------------------------- >>> Gabriel Gudding >>> Department of English >>> Illinois State University >>> Normal, Illinois 61790 >>> 309.438.5284 (office) >>> >>> >>> >>> < >>> Subject: Re: praise be to the watch >>> In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >>> Content-Disposition: inline >>> >>> Gabriel, >>> >>> I second. Alan. Your piece ticks away. >>> >>> Murat ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 10:56:32 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Adam Fieled Subject: Eric Elshtain on PFS Post MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Check out work from Chicago poet and Beard of Bees editor Eric Elshtain on PFS Post: http://www.artrecess.blogspot.com along w Tom Orange, Steve Halle, Lars Palm, Robert Archambeau, Aaron Belz, and more... Love on yer, dearies... http://www.adamfieled.blogspot.com --------------------------------- Be a PS3 game guru. Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 11:14:21 -0800 Reply-To: jmbettridge@yahoo.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Bettridge Subject: Book Arts Conference, New Haven, CT April 2007 Update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The Yale University Library and the Whitney Humanities Center invite historians, literary scholars, artists, and book arts enthusiasts to participate in At the Turn of the Centuries: The Influence of Early 20th Century Book Arts on Contemporary Artists' Books, a conference to be held on April 13, 2007, on the campus of Yale University. A detailed description follows. The concurrent afternoon sessions are currently filled. Even if you are not able to register for the one-hour afternoon session, there are still many seats available for the morning lectures by Marcia Reed, Stephen Bury and Angela Lorenz. We encourage you to sign up for the morning session, explore one of the museums or libraries of Yale in the afternoon, then join us for the closing reception. Please consult our web site for further details: http://beinecke.library.yale.edu/centuries/index.html At the Turn of the Centuries: The Influence of Early 20th Century Book Arts on Contemporary Artists' Books The Yale University Library, the Whitney Humanities Center, the Yale University Art Gallery and the Yale Center for British Art invite historians, literary scholars, artists, and book arts enthusiasts to participate in At the Turn of the Centuries: The Influence of Early 20th Century Book Arts on Contemporary Artists' Books, a conference to be held on April 13, 2007, on the campus of Yale University. Speakers will include Marcia Reed, Head of Collection Development, Getty Research Institute; Stephen Bury, Head of European and American Collections, British Library; and Angela Lorenz, acclaimed American book artist and book arts scholar. The conference will consider the work of various innovative and avant-garde artists and writers working in the years following the turn of the twentieth century, including the Dadaists and Surrealists, and its influence on post-war artists and writers, including those associated with OULIPO and Fluxus, and contemporary inheritors of these traditions in art, literature, and bookwork. Additionally, the conference will highlight strengths of the Yale Arts of the Book Collection, the modern European and American collections at the Beinecke Rare Book and Manuscript Library, the Prints, Drawings, and Photographs Department at the Yale University Art Gallery, and the Rare Books and Manuscripts Department at the Yale Center for British Art. At the Turn of the Centuries will also honor the late Tony Zwicker's life-long commitment to the inventive and original in modern and contemporary book arts. Nancy Kuhl Associate Curator, The Yale Collection of American Literature The Beinecke Rare Book and Manuscript Library Yale University 121 Wall Street P.O. Box 208240 New Haven, CT 06520-8240 Phone: 203.432.2966 Fax: 203.432.4047 ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 14:39:10 -0500 Reply-To: az421@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rob McLennan Subject: Artie Gold 1947-2007 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT a sad email from Endre Farkas, that Montreal poet Artie Gold died on February 14th one of the original vehicule poets, info on him here: http://www.vehiculepoets.com/ http://www.track0.com/ogwc/authors/gold_a.html rob -- poet/editor/publisher ...STANZAS mag, above/ground press & Chaudiere Books (www.chaudierebooks.com) ...coord.,SPAN-O + ottawa small press fair ...12th poetry coll'n - aubade (Broken Jaw Press) .... c/o 858 Somerset St W, Ottawa ON K1R 6R7 * http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 15:15:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinsky Subject: Fw: Vision Dance Music at Symphony Space February 21 to 24 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Vision Dance Music Series DrummingDance & SoundingStrings Wednesday, February 21 through Saturday, February 24, 2007 at Peter Norton Symphony Space – Leonard Nimoy Thalia Theatre Featuring Matthew Shipp/William Parker; Guillermo E. Brown/Dave Burrell Matthew Shipp/Daniel Carter; Carmen de Lavallade/Todd Nicholson Dates: Wednesday, February 21 through Saturday, February 24, 2007 Time: 7:30pm Place: Peter Norton Symphony Space – Leonard Nimoy Thalia Theater 2537 Broadway at 95th Street Subway: 1, 2 or 3 to 96th Street Cost: $20 per night in advance / $25 day of show / $15 students, seniors, members Wednesday, February 21 7:30pm Carmen de Lavallade (dance) / Todd Nicholson (bass) 8:00pm Miriam Parker (dance) / Joe Morris (banjo) 8:30pm Treva Offutt (dance) / Jean-Baptiste Bocle (marimba and electronics) 9:00 pm Matthew Shipp (piano) / Daniel Carter (reeds and trumpet) Thursday, February 22 7:30pm Patricia Nicholson (dance) / William Parker (bass) 8:00pm Yoshiko Chuma (dance) / Ben Gerstein, Peter Zummo, Steve Swell (trombones) 8:30pm Wendy Osserman (choreographer), Charis Haines and Justin Terenullo (dance) Rosi Hertlien (violin) 9:00pm Guillermo E. Brown (drums and electronics) / Dave Burrell (piano) Friday, February 23 7:30pm Carmen de Lavallade (dance) / Todd Nicholson (bass) 8:00pm Wendy Osserman (choreographer), Charis Haines and Justin Terenullo (dance) Rosi Hertlien (violin) 8:30pm Patricia Nicholson (dance) / William Parker (bass) 9:00pm Matthew Shipp (piano) / William Parker (bass) Saturday, February 24 7:30pm Miriam Parker (dance) / Joe Morris (banjo) 8:00pm Treva Offutt (dance) / Jean-Baptiste Bocle (marimba and electronics) 8:30pm Yoshiko Chuma (dance) / Ben Gerstein, Peter Zummo, Chris McIntyre (trombone) 9:00pm IMPROV ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------- Dates: Wednesday, February 21 through Saturday, February 24, 2007 Time: 7:30pm Place: Peter Norton Symphony Space – Leonard Nimoy Thalia Theater 2537 Broadway at 95th Street Subway: 1, 2 or 3 to 96th Street Cost: $20 per night in advance / $25 day of show / $15 students, seniors, members Tickets: www.symphonyspace.org / 212.864.5400 Full Info: www.visionfestival.org / 212.696.6681 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 15:10:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinsky Subject: Fw: hello everyone we're back and bolder than ever some Poetry gigs for you all from dalachinsky and otomo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit steve reads: Saturday, FEB. 24th, 2007 @ 7 PM @ NUTUREart GALLERY 910 GRAND STREET 2nd Floor Williamsburg Brooklyn FREE ADMISSION _______________________________________________________________ Yuko & steve with special guest STEPHANIE STONE : Tuesday, March 6th 8 PM at the Stone on the corner of Ave. C and E 2nd St. admission $5-10 sliding scale (one or the other) followed @ 10 PM by Amiri and Amina Baraka & guests separate admission of $10 ___________________________________________________ steve dalachinsky & Robert Morgan ( poet & art historian ) in a special evening of poetry Thursday, March 15th @ 7 PM @ FUSION ARTS MUSEUM 57 Stanton Street ( near Eldridge ) DONATION __________________________________________ SHaloM NewMan presents @ Pratt Institute - in Manhattan March 16 @ 7 PM exhibit and readings featuring steve, Yuko, Jim Feast and many others... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 21:35:28 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: Quasha this week at Baumgartner, White Box, ZONE Chelsea, & CAA ARTspace In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20070215013927.082cd220@stationhill.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit What a wild combination! What's the topic? 4. Speaking on a CAA panel with Peter Halley and Faith Ringgold : Friday, Feb. 16--9:30-noon. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 16:57:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tarpaulin Sky Subject: Two new books: Max Winter's _The Pictures_ & Sandy Flo rian's _32 Pedals and 47 Stops_ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT New from Tarpaulin Sky Press: Max Winter’s _The Pictures_, and Sandy Florian’s _32 Pedals and 47 Stops_. THE PICTURES, Max Winter. ISBN: 978-0-9779019-2-0 Poetry. 5" x 7", 76 pages, perfectbound. $12 list / $10 direct order includes US shipping: http://www.tarpaulinsky.com/Press/Winter/index.html * Also available in a limited, hand-bound, hardcover edition. Sparse, clear, and free of flourishes, the poems in _The Pictures_ examine war, boredom, death, love, decay, happiness, and worship through a series of moving and still images. In one poem, from a group of “moving” pictures, three soldiers bide their time in a barren landscape, awaiting destruction; in a “still” picture, a group of stones invite us to pay closer attention to them; in another still picture, a woman stands with her mouth open, fists clenched, words unimportant. Sight is unmysterious but wondrous in this book; the poems demonstrate that to look at something or to read it is to experience it, along with its attendant sadness or joy. The "pictures" collected here are communicative and profound, quick to read but long to develop. Winner of the Fifth Annual Boston Review Poetry Contest, Max Winter has poems appearing recently in Free Verse, New American Writing, Ploughshares, The Paris Review, Colorado Review, Volt, The Yale Review, The Canary, Denver Quarterly, First Intensity, GutCult, TYPO, and New Young American Poets (Southern Illinois, 2000). He has published reviews in The New York Times, The Washington Post, The San Francisco Chronicle, Newsday, and BOMB, and is a Poetry Editor of Fence. * 32 PEDALS & 47 STOPS, Sandy Florian. Chapbook. Poetry/Fiction. 7" x 8.25", 36 pages, saddle-sewn. $12 list / $10 direct order includes US shipping: http://www.tarpaulinsky.com/Press/Florian/index.html What's new in _32 Pedals & 47_ Stops is not the rendering of time past, but the experience of time itself passing. Florian’s mode of measurement is a template of sentence structures, paragraph breaks, and tones through which each of her characters pass. Each scene, each moment in time is affected by a shapeshifting personality intent on disruption. As characters and objects appear, disappear, and reappear, one experiences both the evanescence of things and the ghostly accretion of memory, a sense of déjà vu, a sense that something you have experienced is somewhere just out of your mind’s grasp. Throughout these prose poems, Florian “makes strange” the mundane moment by revealing its artificial measurement—and by revealing that there is always something strange happening—in moments that are playful, sad, jolting, pick-pocketing, surprising, puzzling, and beautifully disorienting. Sandy Florian's first book, _Telescope_, is published by Action Books. Her poetry and prose appears in over 30 national and international journals including Slope, bird dog, Parthenon West Review, Indiana Review, Bombay Gin, and Shampoo. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 18:23:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetry Project Subject: Events at the Poetry Project 2/19 - 2/21 In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Dear Ones, Please tromp through the snow and over our way. The workshops have begun this week, but it=B9s not too late to sign up. Go to http://www.poetryproject.com/workshops.php for listings. Love, The Poetry Project Monday, February 19, 8:00 pm Mark Lamoureux & Mohammad Ali Niazmand Mark Lamoureux is the author of four chapbooks: Traceland, 29 Cheeseburgers= , Film Poems and City/Temple. His first full-length collection of poems, Astrometry Organon is due out from Spuyten Duyvil/Meeting Eyes Bindery in early 2007. He is the editor of Cy Gist Press, a micropress focusing on ekphrastic poetry, as well as the the Printed Matter editor for Boog City. Mohammad Ali Niazmand was born in Tehran, Iran in 1977. He is of Iranian an= d Iraqi decent, migrated to the USA in 1988, learned english from the hill of Mt. Tamalpais, to the streets of San Francisco, and the alleys of New York City. He is the author of four collections of poetry including Wizard Poisonings, and Change of Atmosphere. Wednesday, February 21, 8:00 pm Gloria Frym & Lewis Warsh Gloria Frym=B9s most recent book of poems is Solution Simulacra. Her previous collection of poems, Homeless at Home, won an American Book Award in 2002. She is also the author of two critically acclaimed collections of short stories, Distance No Object and How I Learned, as well as several other volumes of poetry, including By Ear, Back to Forth, and Impossible Affection. Lewis Warsh's most recent books are The Origin of the World, Touch of the Whip, Debtor's Prison, in collaboration with Julie Harrison, and Ted's Favorite Skirt. Two chapbooks, Flight Test and The Flea Market in Kiel appeared in 2006. He is co-editor, with Anne Waldman, of The Angel Hai= r Anthology, editor and publisher of United Artists Books, and Associate Professor at Long Island University. A new novel, A Place in the Sun, and a new book of poems, Inseparable: Poems 1995-2005, are forthcoming in 2007. Marcella Durand and Jess Fiorini Bowery Broadsides Series hosted by Farfalla Press Friday, February 16, 7pm The Bowery Poetry Club 308 Bowery@ Bleecker New York, NY Admission is free with a 2 drink minimum The second night of a year long reading series. First fifty patrons receive free broadsides by both poets. All artwork by George Schneeman. FUND RAISER FOR FRANK SHERLOCK this Saturday, February 17, 3:00-4:00 pm $20 suggested donation (please give what you can) =A0 Performers include: Anselm Berrigan, Eddie Berrigan, John Coletti, Cori Copp, Marcella Durand, Greg Fuchs, Brenda Iijima, Mark Lamoureux and Carol Mirakove =A0 Our good friend Frank Sherlock was rushed to the hospital January 22nd with a sudden and mysterious illness which turned out to be a serious case of meningitis. He needed emergency surgery and also suffered a heart attack an= d kidney failure as a result of symptoms related to the illness. His friends have come together to help him at this critical time. We are reaching out t= o other friends and the poetry community on Frank's behalf.=A0=A0Frank's poetry page can be found here: http://FrankSherlock.blogspot.com THANKS SO MUCH FOR YOUR SUPPORT, AND PLEASE SPREAD THE WORD, from the Friends of Frank Sherlock Become a Poetry Project Member! http://poetryproject.com/membership.php Winter Calendar: http://www.poetryproject.com/calendar.php The Poetry Project is located at St. Mark's Church-in-the-Bowery 131 East 10th Street at Second Avenue New York City 10003 Trains: 6, F, N, R, and L. info@poetryproject.com www.poetryproject.com Admission is $8, $7 for students/seniors and $5 for members (though now those who take out a membership at $85 or higher will get in FREE to all regular readings). We are wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. For more info call 212-674-0910. If you=B9d like to be unsubscribed from this mailing list, please drop a line at info@poetryproject.com. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 21:16:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Reel Histrionic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Reel Histrionic In Eloquent Gestures, The Transformation of Performance Style in the Griffith Biograph films, Roberta E. Pearson describes 'histrionic' and 'verisimilar' codes of acting - a transformation from a melodramatic locus to incipient realism. She considers them in relation to 'analogical' and 'digital' communication: "Though most gestural communication systems are unsegmented and analogic, the histrionic code, with its emphasis on the isolation of gesture, does resemble segmented, digital communications such as speech. Actors deliberately struck attitudes, holding each gesture and abstracting it from the flow of motion until the audience had 'read it.'" [...] "Not only were aspiring actors told to 'rest long enough in a gesture,' they were urged to avoid excessive movement, which might detract from attitude-striking." [...] "The elimination of the small gestures brings about the physical equivalent of silence between the grand, posed gestures, resulting in the 'discrete, discontinuous elements and gaps' of digital communication." In contrast, the analogical references the uncoded real, motions and emotions of daily life. The digital is catastrophic, fold-catastrophic; it consists of jumps between gestures or stances, between emotions and their concretion as attitude. The histrionic is dependent upon the diegetic - it as acted action of the unfolding interpreted world. The histrionic is therefore always stylized and responsive, within and up to thresholding. A threshold is constituted by an increased differentiation between gesture and the diegetic real; this itself is stylized. In other words, there are two levels of code, stylization at work: the semantic contents of individuated gestures, and the syntactic divisions between them. The gestures are individuated (not individual); as with other linguistic formation, they are constituted by difference, differance, the playing among gestures 'down the line of the unfolding of the diegetic.' So histrionic gestures bridge from one moment to another in the form <------<----<----- - they are held positions until anomaly (threshold) defers them. Gestures are concretions operating within time's arrow, objectifying the body in a sequence of irreversible positions. The body constitutes the proffering of desire - it is held for the viewer, much as the display of the (sexualized) body operated in some elements of Weimar dance/cabaret culture. This holding is reminiscent of the still pornographic image, which is presented to the (mostly male) viewer; the viewer is aware that the histrionic is there for his or her pleasure. In the pornographic photograph, the erogenous zones function as 'strange attractors'; the diegetic is constructed by the viewer who creates a narratology resulting in masturbation, the cessation of (that) pleasure. The zones, however, are grounded in the analogical, the abject; the viewer is without the gesture of the histrionic (in both silent film and pornography). Stylized gestures reference a repertoire, of course; they must be under- stood by both the actor (in re/presentation) and viewer (as indexical within the diegetic). And repertoires are always stylized, enumerations of entities that play, one way or another, within specified cultural milieus. In this sense, all repertoires are accumulations of conventions and genre; in the case of the histrionic, they are a rough set of mappings into (and constituting) the diegesis, in order that the photoplay 'move forward' for both actor and spectator. (This moving is literally self-centered within the pornographic, which plays within the (transitive and transitional) body of the viewer in both (interrelated) psychoanalytical and biophysical registers.) (But pornography as well as photoplay is never fully reductive; defuge creates another deferral, from image to image, film to film. This is what might be considered the 'repressed of the analogical,' the referencing of the clean and proper body and life-story in relation to the messiness and decathection of everyday life. The analogical is always excessive and irreducible; digital mappings are mappings from one-to-many, mappings into the analogical (body and) real. Digital mappings are not only stylized; they are undergoing continuous transformations, splittings, decathecting, disinvestment, as the surplus of the analog has moved elsewhere. What constitutes pornography or photoplay, fashion or convention, at one synchronic instant, is constituted elsewhere at the next. The repression constructed by the diegesis itself (which leaves out so many things in the world) returns in so many different forms which become increasingly mutually unreadable.) "The name _sensuality_ seems to be taken from the sensual movement, of which Augustine speaks, just as the name of a power is taken from its act, for instance, sight from seeing. Now the sensual movement is an appetite following sensible apprehension. For the act of the apprehensive power is not so properly called a movement as the act of appetite; since the operation of the apprehensive power is completed in the very fact that the thing apprehended is in the one that apprehends, while the operation of the appetitive power is completed in the fact that he who desires is borne towards the desirable thing. Hence it is that the operation of the appre- hensive power is likened to rest; whereas the operation of the appetitive power is rather likened to movement. Therefore by sensual movement we understand the operation of the appetitive power. Thus, sensuality is the name of the sensitive appetitive." (From Aquinas, Summa Theologica, trans- lated by Anton C. Pegis, Introduction to St. Thomas Aquinas, Modern Library, 1948.) [ of little relation: http://www.asondheim.org/aquinas.mp3 ] === ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 18:51:55 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: Quasha with Halley and Ringgold at CAA ARTspace In-Reply-To: <216869.89041.qm@web86004.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What's Halley up to these days....for years it was "yellow cell green ground, blue cell on yellow ground, orange cell with blue ground, purple cell with orange ground, etc"----Oh yes, and then the twist, "red cell with orange conduit and green background." I remember he had a waiting list; people having paid up front for works he hadn't even done yet. He was a fast taker, but was able to confine his talk into the cell (with conduit) of a meta-theory.... His theatre of words became as much the 'thing' as the paintings, but the minimalist conceptual vocabulary at times made him seem a little dogmatic in his anti-expressionism, and frankly I didn't keep up, but I have to admit I was somewhat hooked by the mere fact of his intellectualizings and verbal agility-- like the bespectacled bookish post-Warhol-axis bureaucratic 80s-style artist notion of 'charisma' still lent a glamour to contemporary theory (and vice versa), and doesn't seem so much of a 'tepid rehashing' of earlier 20th century concept-conscious art as it did at the time and it'd be interesting to see how his thought-art, or art-thought has developed... If anyone wants to talk about it here,.... Chris On Feb 15, 2007, at 1:35 PM, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > What a wild combination! What's the topic? > > > 4. Speaking on a CAA panel with Peter Halley and > Faith Ringgold : Friday, Feb. 16--9:30-noon. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 21:52:10 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: Flarf! Baltimore & DC i.e. 2/17, DCAC 2/18 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit An Evening of Flarf i.e. reading series presents The Flarf Collective Sat. Feb. 17th- 7 pm til? @! Dionysus Restaurant & Lounge 8 E. Preston Street, Baltimore, MD 410-244-1020 followd bye An Afternoon of Flarf IN Y O U R E A R R E A D I N G S E R I E S @ District of Columbia Arts Center 2438 18th Street NW, Washington DC Sun. Feb. 18th, 3 - 6 pm Performers will include: Katie Degentesh, author of The Anger Scale Drew Gardner, author of Petroleum Hat & Sugar Pill Benjamin Friedlander, author of A Knot is Not a Tangle & Simulcast Nada Gordon, auhor of V. Imp & Foriegnn Bodie Rodney Koeneke, author of Musee Mechanique & Rouge State Michael Magee, author of Mainstream & My Angie Dickinson Sharon Mesmer, author of In Ordinary Time & The Empty Quarter Mel Nichols, author of Day Poems Rod Smith, author of Music or Honesty & The Good House Gary Sullivan, author of How to Proceed in the Arts & Elsewhere + Film by Brandon Downing, author of Dark Brandon + FlarfOrchestra conducted by Drew Gardner featuring Flarf Collective members & The Brain Wave Chick Jason Hamrick, trumpet Buck Downs & Ryan Walker, guitars Jamie Gaughran-Perez, guitar etc. Adam Good, bass Gary Sullivan, ocarina Following on the success of the 2006 NYC Flarf Festival, they're taking it on the road! Launched in May of 2001 by six poets, the Flarflist Collective is dedicated to the exploration of "the inappropriate" in all of its guises. Poets mine the internet with odd search terms then distill the results into often hilarious and sometimes disturbing poetry, theatre, music, and film. The District of Columbia Arts Center is located between the Dupont Circle and Woodley Park metro stations. For directions, see http://www.dcartscenter.org/location.htm Note: the FlarfOrchestra will only be performing in DC. A large sample of what has come be known as flarf can be found at http://mainstreampoetry.blogspot.com/ B.Y.O.S. (Bring Your Own Squid) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 01:48:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Reel Histrionic In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Alan, I have a sensual desire to apprehend your distinction between analogic and digital. Is in the digital what is apprehended a series of islands? Is the trip to the islands, that journey, analogic? By that, things are reversed. The humdrum of our lives, the process, is our truth. What we arrive at is elusive, contemplative and only static, non sensual. Is that not sad? Ciao, Murat On 2/15/07, Alan Sondheim wrote: > > Reel Histrionic > > > In Eloquent Gestures, The Transformation of Performance Style in the > Griffith Biograph films, Roberta E. Pearson describes 'histrionic' and > 'verisimilar' codes of acting - a transformation from a melodramatic locus > to incipient realism. She considers them in relation to 'analogical' and > 'digital' communication: "Though most gestural communication systems are > unsegmented and analogic, the histrionic code, with its emphasis on the > isolation of gesture, does resemble segmented, digital communications such > as speech. Actors deliberately struck attitudes, holding each gesture and > abstracting it from the flow of motion until the audience had 'read it.'" > [...] "Not only were aspiring actors told to 'rest long enough in a > gesture,' they were urged to avoid excessive movement, which might detract > from attitude-striking." [...] "The elimination of the small gestures > brings about the physical equivalent of silence between the grand, posed > gestures, resulting in the 'discrete, discontinuous elements and gaps' of > digital communication." In contrast, the analogical references the uncoded > real, motions and emotions of daily life. > > The digital is catastrophic, fold-catastrophic; it consists of jumps > between gestures or stances, between emotions and their concretion as > attitude. The histrionic is dependent upon the diegetic - it as acted > action of the unfolding interpreted world. The histrionic is therefore > always stylized and responsive, within and up to thresholding. A threshold > is constituted by an increased differentiation between gesture and the > diegetic real; this itself is stylized. In other words, there are two > levels of code, stylization at work: the semantic contents of individuated > gestures, and the syntactic divisions between them. The gestures are > individuated (not individual); as with other linguistic formation, they > are constituted by difference, differance, the playing among gestures > 'down the line of the unfolding of the diegetic.' So histrionic gestures > bridge from one moment to another in the form <------<----<----- - they > are held positions until anomaly (threshold) defers them. > > Gestures are concretions operating within time's arrow, objectifying the > body in a sequence of irreversible positions. The body constitutes the > proffering of desire - it is held for the viewer, much as the display of > the (sexualized) body operated in some elements of Weimar dance/cabaret > culture. This holding is reminiscent of the still pornographic image, > which is presented to the (mostly male) viewer; the viewer is aware that > the histrionic is there for his or her pleasure. In the pornographic > photograph, the erogenous zones function as 'strange attractors'; the > diegetic is constructed by the viewer who creates a narratology resulting > in masturbation, the cessation of (that) pleasure. The zones, however, are > grounded in the analogical, the abject; the viewer is without the gesture > of the histrionic (in both silent film and pornography). > > Stylized gestures reference a repertoire, of course; they must be under- > stood by both the actor (in re/presentation) and viewer (as indexical > within the diegetic). And repertoires are always stylized, enumerations of > entities that play, one way or another, within specified cultural milieus. > In this sense, all repertoires are accumulations of conventions and genre; > in the case of the histrionic, they are a rough set of mappings into (and > constituting) the diegesis, in order that the photoplay 'move forward' for > both actor and spectator. (This moving is literally self-centered within > the pornographic, which plays within the (transitive and transitional) > body of the viewer in both (interrelated) psychoanalytical and biophysical > registers.) > > (But pornography as well as photoplay is never fully reductive; defuge > creates another deferral, from image to image, film to film. This is what > might be considered the 'repressed of the analogical,' the referencing of > the clean and proper body and life-story in relation to the messiness and > decathection of everyday life. The analogical is always excessive and > irreducible; digital mappings are mappings from one-to-many, mappings into > the analogical (body and) real. Digital mappings are not only stylized; > they are undergoing continuous transformations, splittings, decathecting, > disinvestment, as the surplus of the analog has moved elsewhere. What > constitutes pornography or photoplay, fashion or convention, at one > synchronic instant, is constituted elsewhere at the next. The repression > constructed by the diegesis itself (which leaves out so many things in the > world) returns in so many different forms which become increasingly > mutually unreadable.) > > "The name _sensuality_ seems to be taken from the sensual movement, of > which Augustine speaks, just as the name of a power is taken from its act, > for instance, sight from seeing. Now the sensual movement is an appetite > following sensible apprehension. For the act of the apprehensive power is > not so properly called a movement as the act of appetite; since the > operation of the apprehensive power is completed in the very fact that the > thing apprehended is in the one that apprehends, while the operation of > the appetitive power is completed in the fact that he who desires is borne > towards the desirable thing. Hence it is that the operation of the appre- > hensive power is likened to rest; whereas the operation of the appetitive > power is rather likened to movement. Therefore by sensual movement we > understand the operation of the appetitive power. Thus, sensuality is the > name of the sensitive appetitive." (From Aquinas, Summa Theologica, trans- > lated by Anton C. Pegis, Introduction to St. Thomas Aquinas, Modern > Library, 1948.) > > [ of little relation: http://www.asondheim.org/aquinas.mp3 ] > > === > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 11:16:04 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cralan kelder Subject: Emmett Williams passes In-Reply-To: <9AEF2BEC-176F-46F6-901B-E569FF7E1EB2@earthlink.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable The death of the American concrete / visual poet Emmett Williams was announced yesterday in Berlin, where he has lived for decades. Didn=B9t see this on the list. He died in the night of the 13th =AD 14th. His most recent book, the beautiful A FLEXIBLE HISTORY OF FLUXUS FACTS & FICTIONS Dieser Artikel wurde Ihnen geschickt von boewoe@xs4all.nl mit der pers=F6nlichen Mitteilung: sadly, this Bitte beachten Sie: SPIEGEL ONLINE hat die Identit=E4t des Absenders nicht =FCberpr=FCft SPIEGEL ONLINE, 14.02.2007 --------------------------------------------------------------------- Fluxus-Kunst: Emmett Williams gestorben --------------------------------------------------------------------- Emmett Williams, ehemaliger Weggef=E4hrte von Joseph Beuys, ist in der Nacht zum Mittwoch in Berlin gestorben. Der amerikanische Dichter und Perfomance-K=FCnstler geh=F6rte zu den Begr=FCndern der Fluxus-Bewegung, die auch die Pop-Art inspirierte. Den vollst=E4ndigen Artikel erreichen Sie im Internet unter der URL http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/gesellschaft/0,1518,466491,00.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 09:28:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: susan maurer Subject: Re: Quasha with Halley and Ringgold at CAA ARTspace In-Reply-To: <9AEF2BEC-176F-46F6-901B-E569FF7E1EB2@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed chris like this. we met you and i years ago in ny pleased to see yr still so agile with yr words. susan maurer >From: Chris Stroffolino >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: Quasha with Halley and Ringgold at CAA ARTspace >Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 18:51:55 -0800 > >What's Halley up to these days....for years it was "yellow cell green >ground, blue cell on yellow ground, orange cell with blue ground, purple >cell with orange ground, etc"----Oh yes, and then the twist, "red cell >with orange conduit and green background." >I remember he had a waiting list; people having paid up front for works he >hadn't even done yet. >He was a fast taker, but was able to confine his talk into the cell (with >conduit) of a meta-theory.... >His theatre of words became as much the 'thing' as the paintings, but the >minimalist conceptual vocabulary >at times made him seem a little dogmatic in his anti-expressionism, and >frankly I didn't keep up, >but I have to admit I was somewhat hooked by the mere fact of his >intellectualizings and verbal agility-- >like the bespectacled bookish post-Warhol-axis bureaucratic 80s-style >artist notion of 'charisma' >still lent a glamour to contemporary theory (and vice versa), and doesn't >seem so much of a 'tepid rehashing' >of earlier 20th century concept-conscious art as it did at the time >and it'd be interesting to see how his thought-art, or art-thought has >developed... >If anyone wants to talk about it here,.... > >Chris > >On Feb 15, 2007, at 1:35 PM, Barry Schwabsky wrote: > >>What a wild combination! What's the topic? >> >> >>4. Speaking on a CAA panel with Peter Halley and >>Faith Ringgold : Friday, Feb. 16--9:30-noon. _________________________________________________________________ Want a degree but can't afford to quit? Top school degrees online - in as fast as 1 year http://forms.nextag.com/goto.jsp?url=/serv/main/buyer/education.jsp?doSearch=n&tm=y&search=education_text_links_88_h288c&s=4079&p=5116 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 09:02:23 -0600 Reply-To: dgodston@sbcglobal.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Godston Subject: Black Mountain Collective event tonight In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You are invited to attend tonight's Black Mountain Collective event -- BLACK MOUNTAIN ARTS COLLECTIVE - 2007 Series 4 concerts/happenings, curated by Jeff Kowalkowski, David Hawkins, and Andrew Morgan Beginning Friday, Feb. 16th, 8-10 p.m. at LOCUS, 2114 W. Grand Ave. ----------------------------------------- The complete 2007 series dates are: Friday, February 16 Thursday, April 19 Thursday, June 14 Thursday, October 18 ---- at LOCUS, 2114 W. Grand Ave. Suggested Donation $10 (or pay what you can.) (all door proceeds go to support LOCUS artist space.) The recently formed Black Mountain Arts Collective was formed by Jeff Kowalkowski, David Hawkins and Andrew Morgan, with an emphasis on works created in the present moment. Inspired by the "happenings" orchestrated by John Cage and Robert Rauschenberg and others from Black Mountain College in the 1950s, these concerts will include new music by Kowalkowski, Morgan, and friends and students, and/or feature long-form open improvisations. Simultaneous painting (David Hawkins), movement, multi-media and other random acts may take place. Tonight's performers include - Jeff Kowalkowski -- piano, synthesizers Andrew Morgan -- cello, sounds David Hawkins -- guitar, synthesizers, painting Lance Adams -- poetry Carol Genetti -- voice, sound Michelle Gilman -- theremin Dan Godston -- trumpet, poetry Bill MacKay -- guitar Erica Mott -- movement Adesuwa Obazee -- movement, percussion Les Renczarski -- words Andrew Robb -- guitar, zaphoon, words Joel Wanek -- upright bass ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 07:41:18 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: ALL POETS - "The Internationale became the anthem of international socialism..." In-Reply-To: <1dec21ae0702152248x23bc9accyb4eaef4990dd9ce8@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit jus wanna send out some love vibes - aj http://jacketmagazine.com/31/rc-jorgensen.html http://the-otolith.blogspot.com/ (will need to scroll down for my name) http://fhole.blogspot.com/2006/11/alexander-jorgensen-portraits-from.html http://www.emich.edu/studentorgs/bhouse/oldbhouse/v3n1/wadingbird.htm --- ____________________________________________________________________________________ We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 09:15:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Editors, Tarpaulin Sky Press & Journal" Subject: Two New Books: Max Winter's _The Pictures_ & Sandy Flo rian's _32 Pedals and 47 Stops_ Comments: To: readers@tarpaulinsky.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable (unsubscribe info at bottom of email) New from Tarpaulin Sky Press: Max Winter=92s _The Pictures_, and Sandy Florian=92s _32 Pedals and 47 Stops_.=20 THE PICTURES, Max Winter.=20 ISBN: 978-0-9779019-2-0 Poetry. 5" x 7", 76 pages, perfectbound. $12 list / $10 direct order includes US shipping:=20 http://www.tarpaulinsky.com/Press/Winter/index.html * Also available in a limited, hand-bound, hardcover edition. Sparse, clear, and free of flourishes, the poems in _The Pictures_ = examine war, boredom, death, love, decay, happiness, and worship through a = series of moving and still images. In one poem, from a group of =93moving=94 = pictures, three soldiers bide their time in a barren landscape, awaiting = destruction; in a =93still=94 picture, a group of stones invite us to pay closer = attention to them; in another still picture, a woman stands with her mouth open, = fists clenched, words unimportant. Sight is unmysterious but wondrous in this book; the poems demonstrate that to look at something or to read it is = to experience it, along with its attendant sadness or joy. The "pictures" collected here are communicative and profound, quick to read but long to develop. Winner of the Fifth Annual Boston Review Poetry Contest, Max Winter has poems appearing recently in Free Verse, New American Writing, = Ploughshares, The Paris Review, Colorado Review, Volt, The Yale Review, The Canary, = Denver Quarterly, First Intensity, GutCult, TYPO, and New Young American Poets (Southern Illinois, 2000). He has published reviews in The New York = Times, The Washington Post, The San Francisco Chronicle, Newsday, and BOMB, and = is a Poetry Editor of Fence. * 32 PEDALS & 47 STOPS, Sandy Florian. Chapbook. Poetry/Fiction. 7" x 8.25", 36 pages, saddle-sewn. $12 list / $10 direct order includes US shipping:=20 http://www.tarpaulinsky.com/Press/Florian/index.html What's new in _32 Pedals & 47_ Stops is not the rendering of time past, = but the experience of time itself passing. Florian=92s mode of measurement = is a template of sentence structures, paragraph breaks, and tones through = which each of her characters pass. Each scene, each moment in time is affected = by a shapeshifting personality intent on disruption. As characters and = objects appear, disappear, and reappear, one experiences both the evanescence of things and the ghostly accretion of memory, a sense of d=E9j=E0 vu, a = sense that something you have experienced is somewhere just out of your mind=92s = grasp. Throughout these prose poems, Florian =93makes strange=94 the mundane = moment by revealing its artificial measurement=97and by revealing that there is = always something strange happening=97in moments that are playful, sad, jolting, pick-pocketing, surprising, puzzling, and beautifully disorienting. Sandy Florian's first book, _Telescope_, is published by Action Books. = Her poetry and prose appears in over 30 national and international journals including Slope, bird dog, Parthenon West Review, Indiana Review, Bombay Gin, and Shampoo. =20 * We definitely do not wish to send you emails that you do not wish to receive. If you would like your email address to be removed from this mailing list, please simply reply with UNSUBSCRIBE in the subject line. = We thank you for your understanding.=20 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 12:12:07 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "C. A. Conrad" Subject: TOMORROW NY FUND RAISER FOR FRANK SHERLOCK ==O==O== MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FUND RAISER FOR FRANK SHERLOCK This Saturday 3:00-4:00 pm The Bowery Poetry Club 308 Bowery@ Bleecker New York, NY $20 suggested donation (please give what you can) Performers include: Anselm Berrigan Eddie Berrigan John Coletti Cori Copp Marcella Durand Greg Fuchs Brenda Iijima Mark Lamoureux Carol Mirakove Our good friend Frank Sherlock was rushed to the hospital January 22nd with a sudden and mysterious illness which turned out to be a serious case of meningitis. He needed emergency surgery and also suffered a heart attack and kidney failure as a result of symptoms related to the illness. His friends have come together to help him at this critical time. We are reaching out to other friends and the poetry community on Frank's behalf. Frank's poetry page can be found here: _http://FrankSherlock.blogspot.com_ (http://FrankSherlock.blogspot.com) For updates and other information, please visit _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ (http://PhillySound.blogspot.com) THANKS SO MUCH FOR YOUR SUPPORT, AND PLEASE SPREAD THE WORD, from the Friends of Frank Sherlock ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 12:53:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: Reel Histrionic In-Reply-To: <1dec21ae0702152248x23bc9accyb4eaef4990dd9ce8@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Using the model of silent film performance, the digital is not only the series of islands, but the performance of the journey itself. The analogic is the abject which cannot be contained, curtailed, the shores of the islands, their sad susceptibility to global warming. At this point, and it's my depression speaking, I can't help but fore- ground everything cultural against the ravaging of the planet, the slaughter of human and wild animal populations, the furious violence of our government, governments everywhere. The silent films seem innocent but speak otherwise of innocence; the seeds of destruction are already there. Islands have moved to Second Life, and everyone and everything is buying an island - universities, security agencies, art groups, cultural insti- tutions of all sorts. It's this I'm thinking about at the moment, because performance and gesture in SL parallels silent film in terms of phenom- enology and histrionic. Sound in SL seems third-person, an add-on; later, it will become more integrated of course, and the use of prosthetics will eliminate the need for pre-programmed gestures - first-life and second- life will appear equally analogic, equally 'smooth.' On one hand the rest of the world (what passes past for the real) will seem distant and somehow safer; on the other, the rest of the world, left to its own devices, will continue the killing beyond any reason or proportion. We are living in massacre; repertoire is symptom. What is the poetics of the dead poached elephant, with its face cut off, whose photograph appears in the current National Geographic? What is the poetics? - Alan On Fri, 16 Feb 2007, Murat Nemet-Nejat wrote: > Alan, > > I have a sensual desire to apprehend your distinction between analogic and > digital. Is in the digital what is apprehended a series of islands? Is the > trip to the islands, that journey, analogic? By that, things are reversed. > The humdrum of our lives, the process, is our truth. What we arrive at is > elusive, contemplative and only static, non sensual. Is that not sad? > > Ciao, > > Murat > > On 2/15/07, Alan Sondheim wrote: >> >> Reel Histrionic >> >> >> In Eloquent Gestures, The Transformation of Performance Style in the >> Griffith Biograph films, Roberta E. Pearson describes 'histrionic' and >> 'verisimilar' codes of acting - a transformation from a melodramatic locus >> to incipient realism. She considers them in relation to 'analogical' and >> 'digital' communication: "Though most gestural communication systems are >> unsegmented and analogic, the histrionic code, with its emphasis on the >> isolation of gesture, does resemble segmented, digital communications such >> as speech. Actors deliberately struck attitudes, holding each gesture and >> abstracting it from the flow of motion until the audience had 'read it.'" >> [...] "Not only were aspiring actors told to 'rest long enough in a >> gesture,' they were urged to avoid excessive movement, which might detract >> from attitude-striking." [...] "The elimination of the small gestures >> brings about the physical equivalent of silence between the grand, posed >> gestures, resulting in the 'discrete, discontinuous elements and gaps' of >> digital communication." In contrast, the analogical references the uncoded >> real, motions and emotions of daily life. >> >> The digital is catastrophic, fold-catastrophic; it consists of jumps >> between gestures or stances, between emotions and their concretion as >> attitude. The histrionic is dependent upon the diegetic - it as acted >> action of the unfolding interpreted world. The histrionic is therefore >> always stylized and responsive, within and up to thresholding. A threshold >> is constituted by an increased differentiation between gesture and the >> diegetic real; this itself is stylized. In other words, there are two >> levels of code, stylization at work: the semantic contents of individuated >> gestures, and the syntactic divisions between them. The gestures are >> individuated (not individual); as with other linguistic formation, they >> are constituted by difference, differance, the playing among gestures >> 'down the line of the unfolding of the diegetic.' So histrionic gestures >> bridge from one moment to another in the form <------<----<----- - they >> are held positions until anomaly (threshold) defers them. >> >> Gestures are concretions operating within time's arrow, objectifying the >> body in a sequence of irreversible positions. The body constitutes the >> proffering of desire - it is held for the viewer, much as the display of >> the (sexualized) body operated in some elements of Weimar dance/cabaret >> culture. This holding is reminiscent of the still pornographic image, >> which is presented to the (mostly male) viewer; the viewer is aware that >> the histrionic is there for his or her pleasure. In the pornographic >> photograph, the erogenous zones function as 'strange attractors'; the >> diegetic is constructed by the viewer who creates a narratology resulting >> in masturbation, the cessation of (that) pleasure. The zones, however, are >> grounded in the analogical, the abject; the viewer is without the gesture >> of the histrionic (in both silent film and pornography). >> >> Stylized gestures reference a repertoire, of course; they must be under- >> stood by both the actor (in re/presentation) and viewer (as indexical >> within the diegetic). And repertoires are always stylized, enumerations of >> entities that play, one way or another, within specified cultural milieus. >> In this sense, all repertoires are accumulations of conventions and genre; >> in the case of the histrionic, they are a rough set of mappings into (and >> constituting) the diegesis, in order that the photoplay 'move forward' for >> both actor and spectator. (This moving is literally self-centered within >> the pornographic, which plays within the (transitive and transitional) >> body of the viewer in both (interrelated) psychoanalytical and biophysical >> registers.) >> >> (But pornography as well as photoplay is never fully reductive; defuge >> creates another deferral, from image to image, film to film. This is what >> might be considered the 'repressed of the analogical,' the referencing of >> the clean and proper body and life-story in relation to the messiness and >> decathection of everyday life. The analogical is always excessive and >> irreducible; digital mappings are mappings from one-to-many, mappings into >> the analogical (body and) real. Digital mappings are not only stylized; >> they are undergoing continuous transformations, splittings, decathecting, >> disinvestment, as the surplus of the analog has moved elsewhere. What >> constitutes pornography or photoplay, fashion or convention, at one >> synchronic instant, is constituted elsewhere at the next. The repression >> constructed by the diegesis itself (which leaves out so many things in the >> world) returns in so many different forms which become increasingly >> mutually unreadable.) >> >> "The name _sensuality_ seems to be taken from the sensual movement, of >> which Augustine speaks, just as the name of a power is taken from its act, >> for instance, sight from seeing. Now the sensual movement is an appetite >> following sensible apprehension. For the act of the apprehensive power is >> not so properly called a movement as the act of appetite; since the >> operation of the apprehensive power is completed in the very fact that the >> thing apprehended is in the one that apprehends, while the operation of >> the appetitive power is completed in the fact that he who desires is borne >> towards the desirable thing. Hence it is that the operation of the appre- >> hensive power is likened to rest; whereas the operation of the appetitive >> power is rather likened to movement. Therefore by sensual movement we >> understand the operation of the appetitive power. Thus, sensuality is the >> name of the sensitive appetitive." (From Aquinas, Summa Theologica, trans- >> lated by Anton C. Pegis, Introduction to St. Thomas Aquinas, Modern >> Library, 1948.) >> >> [ of little relation: http://www.asondheim.org/aquinas.mp3 ] >> >> === >> > > ======================================================================= Work on YouTube, blog at http://nikuko.blogspot.com . Tel 718-813-3285. Webpage directory http://www.asondheim.org . Email: sondheim@panix.com. http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim for theory; also check WVU Zwiki, Google for recent. Write for info on books, cds, performance, dvds, etc. ============================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 12:56:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jUStin!katKO Subject: Tonight in Chicago MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline hello i want to recommend/remind those of you in Chicago to get out to Links Hall tonight for the 7th evening of the Open Port festival happening at Links Hall dance space (3435 N. Sheffield, 2nd floor). TNWK (cris cheek & Kirsten Lavers) will be performing along with Talan Memmott and Donna Rutherford - tonight - starts at 7:30pm http://www.linkshall.org/pp-feb3.htm - justin ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 14:08:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: susan maurer Subject: waterworks Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed just came across the www.webnik.com site for waterworks a terrific site with great work in it . take a lokk. im in it too. susan maurer _________________________________________________________________ http://homepage.msn.com/zune?icid=hmetagline ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 15:42:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Dylan Welch Subject: Re: Haiku dumbness / snobbishness In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Regarding "zappai," Dr. Gurga has been criticized for his use of the term. Richard Gilbert, for example, has written about this in an essay at http://www.poetrylives.com/SimplyHaiku/SHv3n1/features/Gilbert_Rollingstone.html, which calls for the removal of the term from the recent Haiku Society of America definition of haiku (Gurga served on the definition committee). Indeed, though, many so-called haiku ("fake" haiku?) are more akin to what may be zappai, or more akin to senryu. Or, in many cases, they are simply short poems. Nothing wrong with that. I have not been comfortable with the term "zappai" as equivalent to pseudo-haiku, as Gurga seems to suggest, especially in the light of Gilbert's article. But the fact remains that many short poems that are not haiku exist *because* of haiku, and there is no useful term for them. Pseudo-haiku is useful to some degree, but is unnecessarily disparaging of poems that are perfectly fine on their own terms (separate from haiku, whethe r the author thought of them as haiku or not). Zappai, though, even if it were the correct term, is too esoteric for common use. There remains "haiku" and "not haiku," and a grey area in between. At the very least, I hope this discussion draws out some of the issues involved. Most folks won't care, but I would urge at least a little more care lest idle comments about haiku contribute to misunderstandings of the genre. I don't think the early Edo period has had any influence on the misunderstandings of haiku in the West. Haiku's influence on Western poetry has been carefully traced. Brett Bodemer has written probably the definitive article on this subject (but it doesn't seem to be online). Charles Trumbull, the current editor of Modern Haiku, has two excellent articles that focus on early as well as more recent haiku history, online at http://www.modernhaiku.org/essays/AmHaikuMovement1.html and http://www.modernhaiku.org/essays/AmHaikuMovement2.html. I have quibbles with bits and pieces of what he says (some of his interpretations, and an occasional fact or two), but generally these are reliable and comprehensive essays. In the interests of full disclosure, my press, Press Here, published two of Lee Gurga's haiku books (*The Measure of Emptiness* in 1991, and *In and Out of Fog* in 1997, which won first place in the Haiku Society of America's annual Merit Book Awards). Lee and I also edited and introduced *The Nick of Time: Essays on Haiku Aesthetics* by Paul O. Williams (he of science fiction fame) -- there's a review at http://www.modernhaiku.org/bookreviews/williams2001.html. We also co-edited the 1999 Haiku North America conference haiku anthology, *Too Busy for Spring*, and have collaborated on other projects. Michael -----Original Message----- Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 22:21:35 -0800 From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Haiku dumbness / snobbishness Furthermore, I want to thank you for linking to that essay by Gurga. While I think i disagree with a lot of what he says, being generally skeptical of ideas like "poetic truth" etc., there's certainly a lot to think about. More importantly though, I think that in his treatment of "zappai" we have a possible resolution for the issue of "fake haiku" that's been the focus of the discussion on the list over the last couple of weeks. Particularly his statement here: "While the term zappai is unfamiliar to most American students of haiku, I believe its adoption will provide us with a useful category to help us understand that while much of what is being written today under the name of haiku is not genuine haiku, it is still a legitimate part of the haikai tradition. Those who object to the introduction of this term might simply want to use the term "pseudo-haiku" to categorize the poems I am describing here." makes a lot of sense to me. Certainly calling a poem like this: Worker bees can leave, Even drones can fly away. The Queen is their slave. a haiku is a mistake. But still, i don't think chuck palahniuks little doggerel would exist if haiku didn't, and the idea of seeing a seventeen syllable quip like that as part of a larger haiku tradition makes sense. I wonder if whether or not some of the american confusion about what a haiku is doesn't have something to do with what Gurga says was a popular form of poetic entertainment in late Edo Japan, particularly since the late Edo period marks the first really extensive cultural cross pollinaztion between japan and the west. then again, i do like the idea of calling them macedonia too. no reason, of course, they can't be both. ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 15:57:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Reel Histrionic In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Alan, The poetics of death, dying, as in your nightmare piece a few weeks ago. Each of these posts is an island, separated by the passage of time/thought in between, which may only be a silence. I am very interested in the threshhold you are talking about. Can you elaborate? It appears that the threshold, the gasp/death in between is what is the most potent. How do silence and death become a song? Is it not through silence? the gaps? Masculin-Feminine An argument why she should turn from him to him .An argument why she should turn from him to him .An argument why she should turn from him to him e m n e F I N I I hope Masc/Fem has kept its visual shape. internet entropy. Ciao, Murat On 2/16/07, Alan Sondheim wrote: > > Using the model of silent film performance, the digital is not only the > series of islands, but the performance of the journey itself. The analogic > is the abject which cannot be contained, curtailed, the shores of the > islands, their sad susceptibility to global warming. > > At this point, and it's my depression speaking, I can't help but fore- > ground everything cultural against the ravaging of the planet, the > slaughter of human and wild animal populations, the furious violence of > our government, governments everywhere. The silent films seem innocent but > speak otherwise of innocence; the seeds of destruction are already there. > > Islands have moved to Second Life, and everyone and everything is buying > an island - universities, security agencies, art groups, cultural insti- > tutions of all sorts. It's this I'm thinking about at the moment, because > performance and gesture in SL parallels silent film in terms of phenom- > enology and histrionic. Sound in SL seems third-person, an add-on; later, > it will become more integrated of course, and the use of prosthetics will > eliminate the need for pre-programmed gestures - first-life and second- > life will appear equally analogic, equally 'smooth.' On one hand the rest > of the world (what passes past for the real) will seem distant and somehow > safer; on the other, the rest of the world, left to its own devices, will > continue the killing beyond any reason or proportion. We are living in > massacre; repertoire is symptom. What is the poetics of the dead poached > elephant, with its face cut off, whose photograph appears in the current > National Geographic? What is the poetics? > > - Alan > > > On Fri, 16 Feb 2007, Murat Nemet-Nejat wrote: > > > Alan, > > > > I have a sensual desire to apprehend your distinction between analogic > and > > digital. Is in the digital what is apprehended a series of islands? Is > the > > trip to the islands, that journey, analogic? By that, things are > reversed. > > The humdrum of our lives, the process, is our truth. What we arrive at > is > > elusive, contemplative and only static, non sensual. Is that not sad? > > > > Ciao, > > > > Murat > > > > On 2/15/07, Alan Sondheim wrote: > >> > >> Reel Histrionic > >> > >> > >> In Eloquent Gestures, The Transformation of Performance Style in the > >> Griffith Biograph films, Roberta E. Pearson describes 'histrionic' and > >> 'verisimilar' codes of acting - a transformation from a melodramatic > locus > >> to incipient realism. She considers them in relation to 'analogical' > and > >> 'digital' communication: "Though most gestural communication systems > are > >> unsegmented and analogic, the histrionic code, with its emphasis on the > >> isolation of gesture, does resemble segmented, digital communications > such > >> as speech. Actors deliberately struck attitudes, holding each gesture > and > >> abstracting it from the flow of motion until the audience had 'read > it.'" > >> [...] "Not only were aspiring actors told to 'rest long enough in a > >> gesture,' they were urged to avoid excessive movement, which might > detract > >> from attitude-striking." [...] "The elimination of the small gestures > >> brings about the physical equivalent of silence between the grand, > posed > >> gestures, resulting in the 'discrete, discontinuous elements and gaps' > of > >> digital communication." In contrast, the analogical references the > uncoded > >> real, motions and emotions of daily life. > >> > >> The digital is catastrophic, fold-catastrophic; it consists of jumps > >> between gestures or stances, between emotions and their concretion as > >> attitude. The histrionic is dependent upon the diegetic - it as acted > >> action of the unfolding interpreted world. The histrionic is therefore > >> always stylized and responsive, within and up to thresholding. A > threshold > >> is constituted by an increased differentiation between gesture and the > >> diegetic real; this itself is stylized. In other words, there are two > >> levels of code, stylization at work: the semantic contents of > individuated > >> gestures, and the syntactic divisions between them. The gestures are > >> individuated (not individual); as with other linguistic formation, they > >> are constituted by difference, differance, the playing among gestures > >> 'down the line of the unfolding of the diegetic.' So histrionic > gestures > >> bridge from one moment to another in the form <------<----<----- - they > >> are held positions until anomaly (threshold) defers them. > >> > >> Gestures are concretions operating within time's arrow, objectifying > the > >> body in a sequence of irreversible positions. The body constitutes the > >> proffering of desire - it is held for the viewer, much as the display > of > >> the (sexualized) body operated in some elements of Weimar dance/cabaret > >> culture. This holding is reminiscent of the still pornographic image, > >> which is presented to the (mostly male) viewer; the viewer is aware > that > >> the histrionic is there for his or her pleasure. In the pornographic > >> photograph, the erogenous zones function as 'strange attractors'; the > >> diegetic is constructed by the viewer who creates a narratology > resulting > >> in masturbation, the cessation of (that) pleasure. The zones, however, > are > >> grounded in the analogical, the abject; the viewer is without the > gesture > >> of the histrionic (in both silent film and pornography). > >> > >> Stylized gestures reference a repertoire, of course; they must be > under- > >> stood by both the actor (in re/presentation) and viewer (as indexical > >> within the diegetic). And repertoires are always stylized, enumerations > of > >> entities that play, one way or another, within specified cultural > milieus. > >> In this sense, all repertoires are accumulations of conventions and > genre; > >> in the case of the histrionic, they are a rough set of mappings into > (and > >> constituting) the diegesis, in order that the photoplay 'move forward' > for > >> both actor and spectator. (This moving is literally self-centered > within > >> the pornographic, which plays within the (transitive and transitional) > >> body of the viewer in both (interrelated) psychoanalytical and > biophysical > >> registers.) > >> > >> (But pornography as well as photoplay is never fully reductive; defuge > >> creates another deferral, from image to image, film to film. This is > what > >> might be considered the 'repressed of the analogical,' the referencing > of > >> the clean and proper body and life-story in relation to the messiness > and > >> decathection of everyday life. The analogical is always excessive and > >> irreducible; digital mappings are mappings from one-to-many, mappings > into > >> the analogical (body and) real. Digital mappings are not only stylized; > >> they are undergoing continuous transformations, splittings, > decathecting, > >> disinvestment, as the surplus of the analog has moved elsewhere. What > >> constitutes pornography or photoplay, fashion or convention, at one > >> synchronic instant, is constituted elsewhere at the next. The > repression > >> constructed by the diegesis itself (which leaves out so many things in > the > >> world) returns in so many different forms which become increasingly > >> mutually unreadable.) > >> > >> "The name _sensuality_ seems to be taken from the sensual movement, of > >> which Augustine speaks, just as the name of a power is taken from its > act, > >> for instance, sight from seeing. Now the sensual movement is an > appetite > >> following sensible apprehension. For the act of the apprehensive power > is > >> not so properly called a movement as the act of appetite; since the > >> operation of the apprehensive power is completed in the very fact that > the > >> thing apprehended is in the one that apprehends, while the operation of > >> the appetitive power is completed in the fact that he who desires is > borne > >> towards the desirable thing. Hence it is that the operation of the > appre- > >> hensive power is likened to rest; whereas the operation of the > appetitive > >> power is rather likened to movement. Therefore by sensual movement we > >> understand the operation of the appetitive power. Thus, sensuality is > the > >> name of the sensitive appetitive." (From Aquinas, Summa Theologica, > trans- > >> lated by Anton C. Pegis, Introduction to St. Thomas Aquinas, Modern > >> Library, 1948.) > >> > >> [ of little relation: http://www.asondheim.org/aquinas.mp3 ] > >> > >> === > >> > > > > > > > ======================================================================= > Work on YouTube, blog at http://nikuko.blogspot.com . Tel 718-813-3285. > Webpage directory http://www.asondheim.org . Email: sondheim@panix.com. > http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim for theory; also check > WVU Zwiki, Google for recent. Write for info on books, cds, performance, > dvds, etc. ============================================================= > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 15:32:57 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Simon DeDeo Subject: two essays on rhubarb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Two end-of-week essays up on rhubarb is susan -- what we talk about when we talk about the avant garde http://rhubarbissusan.blogspot.com/2007/02/what-we-talk-about-when-we-talk-about.html & the Tupelo Press "Poetry Project" http://rhubarbissusan.blogspot.com/2007/02/tupelo-press-poetry-project.html -- Simon ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 16:58:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Dylan Welch Subject: Re: Haiku as a genre In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I suppose it's possible, if one thinks of haiku as a "genre" of poetry, rather than merely a form, that pseudo-haiku, zappai, "haiku-like," and other variants could be part of the "haiku" genre. There's certainly an influence and connection. For years I used to think that haiku was merely anything I wrote in a 5-7-5-syllable pattern. But when I read the second edition of Cor van den Heuvel's *The Haiku Anthology* (1986), where 85+ percent of the poems are not 5-7-5, it confronted me with what makes them haiku, because, for most of them, it certainly wasn't 5-7-5 (and those that were 5-7-5 were generally much older; the third edition of his book has much fewer 5-7-5 poems). So what happened for me, on reading Cor's book, was a dramatic shift -- from focusing on form to focusing on content. This was an epiphany for me, just as thinking of haiku as a genre rather than a form seems to be an epiphany for you, Jason. My epiphany made a world of difference to me, and subsequently my own haiku dramatically improved in quality (and so, too, I think, did my other poetry, because I began writing from a more internal than external place, if that makes sense, a place of trying to say something from myself rather than letting form say something for me). What this may mean for others who write haiku (or dabble in it) could be similar. Over and over I have seen beginner haiku where the poet's focus is predominantly on form, with minimal thought being given to content, or to the other techniques that literary haiku tends to require (kigo, kireji, and so on). Or in some cases (such as most haiku by Sonia Sanchez), there's a co-opting of the form (and I do mean just the perceived "form") for personal purposes, in her case to project vernacular voice (which she does well, but it still has relatively little to do with haiku). A similar trick is done by Paul Muldoon in his haiku -- a co-opting of the form for his own needs. And by co-opting primarily just the form (and again, not necessarily the right form in English, at that), such poems tend to ignore the larger requirements of the genre. A shift to think of haiku as a genre greatly broadens not only what's possible within the genre, but also what is necessary. So, are the following poems haiku? Some comments below. Obviously, these are personal and off-the-cuff reactions, and someone else might point out additional virtues or weaknesses (indeed, such is the nature of very short poetry that interpretation typically becames more personal as the poems get shorter). rain on march flush on the student body I don't get it. I have trouble parsing the syntax here, so to me I don't get it at all, and this has nothing to do with whether it's a haiku or not. What's a "march flush"? I could possibly see the flush of cold on the cheeks of people if it's cold, but to say the entire student body is much too diffuse. But how this connects with the poem as a whole is confusing to me, at least syntactically. Is "rain on" a declaration, like "party on!," or should I expect it to be followed by a noun or noun phrase, as in, the rain is falling on something? If the former, it seems an odd declaration. If the latter, then neither "march" nor "flush" follow logically/gramatically, so I'm confused. Nor does the middle line even interrupt the first and second line, which is apparent from the use of "on" again in the third line. So I'm merely baffled here, even while I'm stretching to try to get something. Haiku tend to rely on concrete images, so the rain and the student body (though rather genera l) are the best examples of that here. The best haiku also tend to rely on believable (authentic?) personal experience, so the oddities of syntax here take it away from my experience, or even an experience I could imagine. In fact, to some degree, it defies experience entirely, as if trying to do something else, yet what that might be still eludes me, and if it eludes readers that much, it's probably too intellectual or imaginative a construct to have the immediacy of the best haiku. If poetry is meant to communicate something (whether facts or feeling or something else), perhaps this poem doesn't work, because I'm left more confused (for no apparent reason) than with any feeling of understanding. warm santa ana crumples silver paper I would take "Ana" to be the name of a little girl, and she's crushing silver paper, though we don't know why. This is juxtaposed with "warm santa," so the leap between these two elements is something in common with haiku. But why is the Santa warm? I don't get that -- and it's both unresolved and probably unresolvable. Sure, the mention of Santa and and silver paper suggests Christmas, but so what? This fulfills a seasonal expectation for haiku, but that in itself is not enough, even for the best haiku. There is often something connected TO a season that carries additional meaning in some way, rather than merely giving you a sense of the season. But what's the overall message or feeling here? I feel a bit too confused by it to know, or to feel enough from it. I think of the bilingual haiku journal Ginyu, in Japan, edited by Ban'ya Natsuishi, that might be attracted to this poem for its avant-garde or slightly tantalizing (unresolved) psychological effect (I mean "avant-garde " in terms of haiku, of which Natsuishi is a leading proponent). But I would still bet that most haiku readers would be puzzled by it, in an unresovable way, nor would they find any meta-resolution in realizing that it's unresolvable, because even *that* effect is achieved with more control than I see in these words. It seems too confusing in its whole effect, even while I like the image of a girl crumpling silver paper. I can suspend my disbelief on reading about a girl crumpling silver paper, but I have trouble suspending disbelief when offered the incomplete image of whatever a "warm santa" is. (Also not keen on the word "paper" being a line by itself.) Is this a haiku? I think it comes closer than any of the other pieces offered here. On the other hand, folks like Hiroaki Sato have said that haiku is whatever a person wants to call a haiku. That's a bit too liberal for me, or a way of dodging any discussion of the matter, for clearly even he himself has a notion that make s a haiku different from, say, a novel. a cotton lycra weave lifts from plants it catches I don't quite get this, either, whether haiku or not. I don't quite understand what is happening, or why it is happening. Why would a weave of something "catch" plants? And why plants? And why is it important to say that the weave is made of cotton lycra? And why would that weave then "lift" from the plants it catches? And if it caught the plants, wouldn't it take the plants with it if it lifts, and thus not lift *from* the plants? How can it lift from *and* catch the plants? And what on earth for? I don't mind something being illogical, to some degree, but I do want there still to be a discernable reason for the illogic, and that's missing here, at least for me. Haiku is oftentimes considered an unfinished poem, but this poem is TOO incomplete, and a good haiku provides just a little bit more information than this. More importantly, I don't understand what intuition or feeling I'm supposed to get from this. As a result, I feel detached from it rather than engaged by it, and engagement is a key thing that helps distinguish a haiku, or at least its effect. And of course, something may "be" a haiku, but it's a separate matter as to whether it's a weak or strong haiku. green colors wax Again, what am I supposed to feel here? There's also no clarity of location or context. It's too ambiguous or general for me to know what to do with it. I have no problem with the minimalism, though, and I immediately think of a prize-winning minimalist haiku by the late Jerry Kilbride: mime lifting fog Here, by the use of the word "fog," we know we are outside, and so it's easy to see a mime in a city or park setting, like any other street performer. So, despite the minimalism, there's enough information here to ground the poem in common personal experience, and it's not obscure or excessively ambiguous. And what an interesting image to see the mime in the fog. White-faced and white-gloved, too! And then to see the mime's actions: Instead of being trapped in an invisible box or miming some other scenario, we see him physically lifting the fog, or trying to. To some, this poem is probably on the fringe of haiku. However, I would argue that it's closer to traditional haiku than they might think. Fog is a season word, for example (at least I'm pretty sure it is, without looking it up in a saijiki -- season-word almanac). And the poem has a curious property of being readable in two ways, employing what is called a kakekatoba in Japanese, or a pivot word (somewhat like the zeugm a in Western literature). One can read this as mime (period), and then you see "lifting fog" (where it's lifting by itself, perhaps to reveal that there's a mime there). Or it can be read as the mime lifting the fog, in the inimitable way of mimes everywhere. Is the mime lifting the fog, or is the fog lifting by itself in the presence of a mime? It's this oscillation between two possible readings or meanings that shows the poem to be akin to haiku, at least for me. And of course the immediate objective imagery is almost so fundamental as to be easy not to mention, yet that too is important. Kilbride's poem, in contrast to "green / colors / wax," shows what can be done with minimalism under the haiku rubric. Here, too, is a similarly minimalist poem of mine, that I think functions in ways similar to Kilbride's poem night falling snow I believe this offering can be read in several different ways, depending whether you put a pause or break after the first or the second line, or have no break and read it all of a piece, or perhaps even have two breaks. All variations are possible. Will such poems change the world? No, of course not. But by their sharp focus, I believe poems like this -- indeed, all the best haiku -- can make you appreciate the world around you. Rachel Carson has written about the value of noticing nature, to have a sense of wonder. Haiku, perhaps more than any other poem, embodies this sense of wonder, and seeks to share it from writer to reader. Michael -----Original Message----- Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 21:51:04 -0800 From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Haiku dumbness / snobbishness hrm, i want to understand. you're getting close to me getting it with your talk of genre. but still you're a little too vague for me. genre to me implies that some things can be more haiku like, that there are some things that might be borderline cases of haiku, and THAT strikes me as very interesting. So I'm curious, are any of these four things haiku? rain on march flush on the student body warm santa ana crumples silver paper a cotton lycra weave lifts from plants it catches green colors wax i'd like to know what you would consider a fringe case, because such things really interest me and thinking of haiku as genre rather than form feels a bit epiphanic. so thanks. oh, and as for the point about making a concerted effort to praise haiku rather than say what it isn't, i was referring more to comments in these threads. I'm sure there are all manner of excellent books, i just thought that the tone of the conversation on the poetics list seemed overly focussed on why some things aren't haiku rather than why other things are. ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 17:07:59 -0500 Reply-To: "Patrick F. Durgin" Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Patrick F. Durgin" Subject: Hannah Weiner's Open House / Pre-orders Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We're off to the presses and have a ship date of 3/14 for the forthcoming H= annah Weiner selected from Kenning Editions. For those interested in pre-o= rdering, see below. Hannah Weiner=E2=80=99s Open House, by Hannah Weiner. Edited and with an in= troduction by Patrick F. Durgin. POETRY/ART/PERFORMANCE ISBN 0-9767364-1-1 = $14.95 Hannah Weiner=E2=80=99s influence extends from the sixties New York avant-g= arde, where she was part of an unprecedented confluence of poets, performan= ce and visual artists including Phillip Glass, Andy Warhol, Carolee Schneem= an, John Perrault, David Antin, and Bernadette Mayer. Like fellow-traveler = Jackson Mac Low, she became an important part of the L=3DA=3DN=3DG=3DU=3DA= =3DG=3DE movement of the 70s and 80s, and her influence can be seen today i= n the so-called =E2=80=9CNew Narrative=E2=80=9D work stemming from the San = Francisco Bay Area. With other posthumous publications of late, her work is= being discussed by scholars in feminist studies, poetics, and disability s= tudies. But there does not yet exist a representative selection spanning he= r decades of poetic output. Hannah Weiner=E2=80=99s Open House aims to reme= dy this with previously uncollected (and mostly never-published) work, incl= uding performance texts, early New York School influenced lyric poems, odes= and remembrances to / of Mac Low and Ted Berrigan, and later =E2=80=9Cclai= r-style=E2=80=9D works. Hannah Weiner=E2=80=99s Open House beckons us into a realm of poetry that b= ends consciousness in order to open the doors of perception. Weiner is one = of the great American linguistic inventors of the last thirty years of the = 20th century. She created an alchemical poetry that transforms the material= s of everyday life into a dimension beyond sensory perception. The pieces c= ollected here are as much conceptual art as sprung prose, experimental myst= icism as social realism, autobiography as egoless alyric. Patrick Durgin ha= s brought together touchstone works, some familiar and some never before pu= blished. Hannah Weiner=E2=80=99s Open House provides the only single volume= introduction to the full range of Weiner=E2=80=99s vibrant, enthralling, a= nd unique contribution to the poetry of the Americas. --Charles Bernstein Hannah Weiner=E2=80=99s syncopated patterning uncovers a conversation so th= rilling that I never want it to end. As Frank O=E2=80=99Hara had earlier sh= ifted the stable lyric self into a multiplicity of positions (=E2=80=9CI do= n=E2=80=99t know what blood=E2=80=99s in me=E2=80=9D), Weiner began in over= drive and rocketed outward, inhabiting texts and communities with the same = skill with which she herself was inhabited. =E2=80=9CI was also a pillow/ c= ase,=E2=80=9D she wrote, in Spoke (1984). =E2=80=9C I was in the closet I w= as an iron [ . . .] I was also sentence.=E2=80=9D Weiner makes haunting bot= h spooky and hilarious. Messages billboard across the page, words bleed, le= ap and wilt. Superscription and subscription join forces to destroy the heg= emony of the poetic line, opening it up to pure energy. --Dodie Bellamy Hannah Weiner=E2=80=99s work, so lovingly presented here, brought her into = the exploration of new ways & means for making poetry =E2=80=93 a process b= y which she would have left her mark under any circumstances on avant-garde= poetics & practice. The still more remarkable change in her later work cam= e, spontaneously, with the onset of an experience, an ongoing alteration of= perception in which visible words entered her field of vision =E2=80=93 as= cause of wonder & as =E2=80=9Cmessages=E2=80=9D to be included in the poem= s that followed. If her art both early & late insures her standing within t= he twentieth-century avant-garde, it connects her as well to the experience= & writings of many traditional poet-mystics (clairvoyants in her word for = them & for herself). It is, when taken as a whole, an achievement without p= recedent or comparison among her sometimes better-known contemporaries. --Jerome Rothenberg Poet and visionary, Hannah Weiner knit together the worlds of post New York= School poetry, performance and art. In the early 70s, she went on a three-= week fast and let go of everything, resurfacing with a newly visceral, and = visual, relation to letters and words. Exploring the joins between art and = life, language and politics, she sought to "work in poetic forms that thems= elves alter consciousness." For Weiner, poetry became a way to intertwine h= er own experience with that of others, to let more of the world into her ar= t: "I continue writing as a collaboration with WORDS I SEE." Rich with prev= iously unpublished works and samples of key works, Hannah Weiner=E2=80=99s = Open House restores a crucial figure to the present. --Liz Kotz Poetics List Pre-Order Special: Send a check or carefully concealed cash i= n the total of $12.00 per copy of the book, payable to the editor, Patrick = F. Durgin, 409 Maple Street #2, Ypsilanti MI 48198. Books ship mid-March. = Shortly thereafter, they will also be available through our regular distri= butor, Small Press Distribution (www.spdbooks.org), and thus your local boo= kseller. Subscriptions to the series of trade paperbacks from Kenning Edit= ions can be had by filling out this handy form: http://www.kenningeditions= .com/images/sub07.pdf Also available by subscription or via SPD: Who Opens, by Jesse Seldess. PO= ETRY ISBN 0-9767364-0-3 $12.95 Jesse Seldess is a Chicago-based poet and literary activist currently resid= ing in Berlin. His work has been published in numerous journals, including = Chicago Review and Kenning. He was a founding curator of the acclaimed Chic= ago reading and performance series Discrete Series and has read his own wor= k from New York to Paris. Antennae, the small press journal of which he is = editor and publisher, is internationally recognized for publishing cutting = edge music, poetry, and performance texts. Who Opens is his first full-leng= th collection. In Jesse Seldess=E2=80=99 poetry, words require a certain elasticity to per= form an attentive music of formation. The manner in which phrasal units arr= ive, depart and recombine creates a movement like a flock of birds making a= wide turn=E2=80=94there is a harmony of ever-shifting participants. The = =E2=80=9Cwho=E2=80=9D of Who Opens is a similarly mobile designation=E2=80= =94it is =E2=80=9Cwho you have continually overheard=E2=80=9D and what is i= tself being overheard. With great compassion and precision, this book retur= ns language to the habitat of sound from which poetry has been away far too= long. --Kerri Sonnenberg These seven poems fit together with a perfect weave, three sets of twins (i= n each set, you might read the first as the sounding of themes, the second = as a rhetorical raga exploring them) followed by a coda, as sweet as it is = final. It is impossible not to read these poems aloud &, sounded, they are = magnificent. Jesse Seldess has written a wonderful book. --Ron Silliman KENNING EDITIONS are distributed to individuals and the trade by Small Pres= s Distribution / www.spdbooks.org / 800 869 7553 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 17:26:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: visiting writer position In-Reply-To: <20070213180121.BWZ48726@po-f.temple.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline FUND RAISER FOR FRANK SHERLOCK This Saturday 3:00-4:00 pm The Bowery Poetry Club 308 Bowery@ Bleecker New York, NY $20 suggested donation (please give what you can) Performers include: Anselm Berrigan Eddie Berrigan John Coletti Cori Copp Marcella Durand Greg Fuchs Brenda Iijima Mark Lamoureux Carol Mirakove Our good friend Frank Sherlock was rushed to the hospital January 22nd with a sudden and mysterious illness which turned out to be a serious case of meningitis. He needed emergency surgery and also suffered a heart attack and kidney failure as a result of symptoms related to the illness. His friends have come together to help him at this critical time. We are reaching out to other friends and the poetry community on Frank's behalf. Frank's poetry page can be found here: _http://FrankSherlock.blogspot.com_ (http://FrankSherlock.blogspot.com ) For updates and other information, please visit _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ (http://PhillySound.blogspot.com ) THANKS SO MUCH FOR YOUR SUPPORT, AND PLEASE SPREAD THE WORD, from the Friends of Frank Sherlock ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 22:41:14 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Raymond Bianchi Subject: Re: visiting writer position Comments: cc: Murat Nemet-Nejat MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit All If those of us who are not in NYC or Philly want to donate what is an address that we can send a check?? Please advise Ray -------------- Original message -------------- From: Murat Nemet-Nejat > FUND RAISER FOR FRANK SHERLOCK > > This Saturday > 3:00-4:00 pm > The Bowery Poetry Club > 308 Bowery@ Bleecker > New York, NY > $20 suggested donation (please give what you can) > > Performers include: > > Anselm Berrigan > Eddie Berrigan > John Coletti > Cori Copp > Marcella Durand > Greg Fuchs > Brenda Iijima > Mark Lamoureux > Carol Mirakove > > Our good friend Frank Sherlock was rushed to the hospital January 22nd with > a sudden and mysterious illness which turned out to be a serious case of > meningitis. He needed emergency surgery and also suffered a heart attack > and > kidney failure as a result of symptoms related to the illness. His friends > have > come together to help him at this critical time. We are reaching out to > other > friends and the poetry community on Frank's behalf. Frank's poetry page > can > be found here: _http://FrankSherlock.blogspot.com_ > (http://FrankSherlock.blogspot.com ) > > For updates and other information, please visit > _http://PhillySound.blogspot.com_ > (http://PhillySound.blogspot.com > ) > > THANKS SO MUCH FOR YOUR SUPPORT, AND PLEASE SPREAD THE WORD, > from the Friends of Frank Sherlock ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 18:02:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Haiku as a genre In-Reply-To: <8C9202CAE07A7E4-1428-2177@WEBMAIL-RD11.sysops.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Michael, "a cotton lycra weave lifts/ from plants it catches" seems to the in terms of spirit, rather than strict form, the closest to Haiku. It is about perception. A piece of cloth is caught/snagged (during walk?) by a plant (with thorns). The continuing motion pulls the plant for a moment, but then the plant is detached. It is this moment between catching and detaching (the puill of motion and counter pull of the static) which the poem catches, which is wonderful, and it seems to me exactly in the spirit of haiku. The chairs, in half beings buried in snow, are pigeons in the park. I am enjoying your posts. Ciao, Murat On 2/16/07, Michael Dylan Welch wrote: > > I suppose it's possible, if one thinks of haiku as a "genre" of poetry, > rather than merely a form, that pseudo-haiku, zappai, "haiku-like," and > other variants could be part of the "haiku" genre. There's certainly an > influence and connection. For years I used to think that haiku was merely > anything I wrote in a 5-7-5-syllable pattern. But when I read the second > edition of Cor van den Heuvel's *The Haiku Anthology* (1986), where 85+ > percent of the poems are not 5-7-5, it confronted me with what makes them > haiku, because, for most of them, it certainly wasn't 5-7-5 (and those that > were 5-7-5 were generally much older; the third edition of his book has much > fewer 5-7-5 poems). So what happened for me, on reading Cor's book, was a > dramatic shift -- from focusing on form to focusing on content. This was an > epiphany for me, just as thinking of haiku as a genre rather than a form > seems to be an epiphany for you, Jason. My epiphany made a world of > difference to me, and subsequently my > own haiku dramatically improved in quality (and so, too, I think, did my > other poetry, because I began writing from a more internal than external > place, if that makes sense, a place of trying to say something from myself > rather than letting form say something for me). > > What this may mean for others who write haiku (or dabble in it) could be > similar. Over and over I have seen beginner haiku where the poet's focus is > predominantly on form, with minimal thought being given to content, or to > the other techniques that literary haiku tends to require (kigo, kireji, and > so on). Or in some cases (such as most haiku by Sonia Sanchez), there's a > co-opting of the form (and I do mean just the perceived "form") for personal > purposes, in her case to project vernacular voice (which she does well, but > it still has relatively little to do with haiku). A similar trick is done by > Paul Muldoon in his haiku -- a co-opting of the form for his own needs. And > by co-opting primarily just the form (and again, not necessarily the right > form in English, at that), such poems tend to ignore the larger requirements > of the genre. A shift to think of haiku as a genre greatly broadens not only > what's possible within the genre, but also what is necessary. > > So, are the following poems haiku? Some comments below. Obviously, these > are personal and off-the-cuff reactions, and someone else might point out > additional virtues or weaknesses (indeed, such is the nature of very short > poetry that interpretation typically becames more personal as the poems get > shorter). > > rain on > march flush > on the student body > > I don't get it. I have trouble parsing the syntax here, so to me I don't > get it at all, and this has nothing to do with whether it's a haiku or not. > What's a "march flush"? I could possibly see the flush of cold on the cheeks > of people if it's cold, but to say the entire student body is much too > diffuse. But how this connects with the poem as a whole is confusing to me, > at least syntactically. Is "rain on" a declaration, like "party on!," or > should I expect it to be followed by a noun or noun phrase, as in, the rain > is falling on something? If the former, it seems an odd declaration. If the > latter, then neither "march" nor "flush" follow logically/gramatically, so > I'm confused. Nor does the middle line even interrupt the first and second > line, which is apparent from the use of "on" again in the third line. So I'm > merely baffled here, even while I'm stretching to try to get something. > Haiku tend to rely on concrete images, so the rain and the student body > (though rather genera > l) are the best examples of that here. The best haiku also tend to rely on > believable (authentic?) personal experience, so the oddities of syntax here > take it away from my experience, or even an experience I could imagine. In > fact, to some degree, it defies experience entirely, as if trying to do > something else, yet what that might be still eludes me, and if it eludes > readers that much, it's probably too intellectual or imaginative a construct > to have the immediacy of the best haiku. If poetry is meant to communicate > something (whether facts or feeling or something else), perhaps this poem > doesn't work, because I'm left more confused (for no apparent reason) than > with any feeling of understanding. > > warm santa > ana crumples silver > paper > > I would take "Ana" to be the name of a little girl, and she's crushing > silver paper, though we don't know why. This is juxtaposed with "warm > santa," so the leap between these two elements is something in common with > haiku. But why is the Santa warm? I don't get that -- and it's both > unresolved and probably unresolvable. Sure, the mention of Santa and and > silver paper suggests Christmas, but so what? This fulfills a seasonal > expectation for haiku, but that in itself is not enough, even for the best > haiku. There is often something connected TO a season that carries > additional meaning in some way, rather than merely giving you a sense of the > season. But what's the overall message or feeling here? I feel a bit too > confused by it to know, or to feel enough from it. I think of the bilingual > haiku journal Ginyu, in Japan, edited by Ban'ya Natsuishi, that might be > attracted to this poem for its avant-garde or slightly tantalizing > (unresolved) psychological effect (I mean "avant-garde > " in terms of haiku, of which Natsuishi is a leading proponent). But I > would still bet that most haiku readers would be puzzled by it, in an > unresovable way, nor would they find any meta-resolution in realizing that > it's unresolvable, because even *that* effect is achieved with more control > than I see in these words. It seems too confusing in its whole effect, even > while I like the image of a girl crumpling silver paper. I can suspend my > disbelief on reading about a girl crumpling silver paper, but I have trouble > suspending disbelief when offered the incomplete image of whatever a "warm > santa" is. (Also not keen on the word "paper" being a line by itself.) Is > this a haiku? I think it comes closer than any of the other pieces offered > here. On the other hand, folks like Hiroaki Sato have said that haiku is > whatever a person wants to call a haiku. That's a bit too liberal for me, or > a way of dodging any discussion of the matter, for clearly even he himself > has a notion that make > s a haiku different from, say, a novel. > > a cotton lycra weave lifts > from plants it catches > > I don't quite get this, either, whether haiku or not. I don't quite > understand what is happening, or why it is happening. Why would a weave of > something "catch" plants? And why plants? And why is it important to say > that the weave is made of cotton lycra? And why would that weave then "lift" > from the plants it catches? And if it caught the plants, wouldn't it take > the plants with it if it lifts, and thus not lift *from* the plants? How can > it lift from *and* catch the plants? And what on earth for? I don't mind > something being illogical, to some degree, but I do want there still to be a > discernable reason for the illogic, and that's missing here, at least for > me. Haiku is oftentimes considered an unfinished poem, but this poem is TOO > incomplete, and a good haiku provides just a little bit more information > than this. More importantly, I don't understand what intuition or feeling > I'm supposed to get from this. As a result, I feel detached from it rather > than engaged by it, and > engagement is a key thing that helps distinguish a haiku, or at least its > effect. And of course, something may "be" a haiku, but it's a separate > matter as to whether it's a weak or strong haiku. > > green > colors > wax > > Again, what am I supposed to feel here? There's also no clarity of > location or context. It's too ambiguous or general for me to know what to do > with it. I have no problem with the minimalism, though, and I immediately > think of a prize-winning minimalist haiku by the late Jerry Kilbride: > > mime > lifting > fog > > Here, by the use of the word "fog," we know we are outside, and so it's > easy to see a mime in a city or park setting, like any other street > performer. So, despite the minimalism, there's enough information here to > ground the poem in common personal experience, and it's not obscure or > excessively ambiguous. And what an interesting image to see the mime in the > fog. White-faced and white-gloved, too! And then to see the mime's actions: > Instead of being trapped in an invisible box or miming some other scenario, > we see him physically lifting the fog, or trying to. To some, this poem is > probably on the fringe of haiku. However, I would argue that it's closer to > traditional haiku than they might think. Fog is a season word, for example > (at least I'm pretty sure it is, without looking it up in a saijiki -- > season-word almanac). And the poem has a curious property of being readable > in two ways, employing what is called a kakekatoba in Japanese, or a pivot > word (somewhat like the zeugm > a in Western literature). One can read this as mime (period), and then you > see "lifting fog" (where it's lifting by itself, perhaps to reveal that > there's a mime there). Or it can be read as the mime lifting the fog, in the > inimitable way of mimes everywhere. Is the mime lifting the fog, or is the > fog lifting by itself in the presence of a mime? It's this oscillation > between two possible readings or meanings that shows the poem to be akin to > haiku, at least for me. And of course the immediate objective imagery is > almost so fundamental as to be easy not to mention, yet that too is > important. Kilbride's poem, in contrast to "green / colors / wax," shows > what can be done with minimalism under the haiku rubric. Here, too, is a > similarly minimalist poem of mine, that I think functions in ways similar to > Kilbride's poem > > night > falling > snow > > I believe this offering can be read in several different ways, depending > whether you put a pause or break after the first or the second line, or have > no break and read it all of a piece, or perhaps even have two breaks. All > variations are possible. Will such poems change the world? No, of course > not. But by their sharp focus, I believe poems like this -- indeed, all the > best haiku -- can make you appreciate the world around you. Rachel Carson > has written about the value of noticing nature, to have a sense of wonder. > Haiku, perhaps more than any other poem, embodies this sense of wonder, and > seeks to share it from writer to reader. > > Michael > > > > -----Original Message----- > Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 21:51:04 -0800 > From: Jason Quackenbush > Subject: Re: Haiku dumbness / snobbishness > > hrm, i want to understand. you're getting close to me getting it with your > talk > of genre. but still you're a little too vague for me. genre to me > implies that some things can be more haiku like, that there are some > things that > might be borderline cases of haiku, and THAT strikes me as very > interesting. > > So I'm curious, are any of these four things haiku? > > rain on > march flush > on the student body > > warm santa > ana crumples silver > paper > > a cotton lycra weave lifts > from plants it catches > > green > colors > wax > > i'd like to know what you would consider a fringe case, because such > things > really interest me and thinking of haiku as genre rather than form feels > a bit epiphanic. so thanks. > > oh, and as for the point about making a concerted effort to praise haiku > rather > than say what it isn't, i was referring more to comments in these > threads. I'm sure there are all manner of excellent books, i just thought > that > the tone of the conversation on the poetics list seemed overly focussed > on why some things aren't haiku rather than why other things are. > ________________________________________________________________________ > Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security > tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, > free AOL Mail and more. > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 10:53:36 +1100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alison Croggon Subject: Re: Haiku as a genre In-Reply-To: <1dec21ae0702161502o4e9fcd05tb08e446dc7f619b6@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Speaking of genre... I've written one haiku in my life. It was for a fantasy novel, which is fun because I get to play around with forms I don't usually play with, and of course make up my own forms and traditions. This one is actually called an enryu (ancient Suderain form) and of course smarties among you will notice the syllabic count goes 7-5-7 Drunk with beauty, I tore down armfuls of blossom. How desolate the marred sky! -- Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 15:56:25 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: OFFLIST : Oregon woman, 84, pleads guilty in boy's sex abuse case In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit And remember when astronauts were among those folk who necessaily we thought we'd never question TRUST. AJ --- http://www.tdn.com/articles/2007/02/16/area_news/news02.txt By Associated Press Feb 16, 2007 - 06:31:47 am PST PORTLAND, Ore. (AP) -- An 84-year-old woman accused of attempted rape involving an 11-year-old boy in her foster care has pleaded guilty to a lesser charge after confessing to having sex with the child, prosecutors said Thursday. Georgie Audean Buoy, of The Dalles, a Columbia River town about 90 miles east of Portland, will serve 36 months in prison, said Leslie Wolf, chief deputy district attorney for Wasco County. Buoy originally faced six separate charges but reached a plea agreement on a single charge, Wolf said. She noted that Buoy had faced eight years in prison on the original charges but her "age and lack of prior criminal convictions had a significant impact with the resolution of this case." In a taped confession, Buoy admitted having sex with the boy while he was in her care in 2004, Wolf said. "Obviously, with this case, there is going to be a lot of disbelief so we wanted make sure people knew it was a confession," Wolf said. She said that Buoy was a longtime member of the community and her church, and volunteered at the county jail. Church officials were not immediately available for comment. Buoy's attorney, Andrew Carter, also was not immediately available. Buoy pleaded guilty Thursday to attempted sex abuse in Wasco County Circuit Court in The Dalles. She must register as a sex offender after serving her sentence at the Coffee Creek women's prison in Wilsonville. Buoy also must pay $5,000 to the victim, as well as up to $7,500 in restitution for counseling. Buoy will be the oldest female inmate in the Oregon corrections system, according to the Oregon Department of Corrections. But there is a 93-year-old male inmate in the prison system, and a 72-year-old female inmate at Coffee Creek, officials said. District Attorney Eric Nisley said it was the only case in his memory involving sexual abuse of a boy by an elderly woman -- but it was handled like any other case. "When an adult victimizes a child, the sex of either partner is irrelevant -- the damage is done and it's permanent," Nisley said. Copyright 2007 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. --- ____________________________________________________________________________________ Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545367 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 16:12:04 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: Red Rover Series / Experiment #11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Red Rover Series {readings that play with reading} Experiment #11: Forth Sound Back Featuring: Christopher Alexander Rheim Alkadhi Tara Betts Dan Godston Elizabeth Harper Topher Hemann Lisa Hemminger David Harrison Horton Toni Asante Lightfoot Elizabeth Marino Eneida Martino Ryan "Shmedly" Maynes Wang Ping Matthias Regan Joris Soeding Duane Vorhees 7pm Saturday, February 24th suggested donation $3 at LOCUS 2114 W. Grand -- Chicago, IL (enter via the alley behind the building at Hoyne) new home of the SpareRoom http://www.spareroomchicago.org Forth Sound Back features writers and artists presenting their long distance collaborations with each other. Their pieces include poems, sound collages, and other creative responses that use exchanged artifacts as their grist. Local poet and musician Dan Godston is a guest curator for this special Red Rover event. CHRISTOPHER ALEXANDER is a poet who lives in Brooklyn. He is the co-founder of RubbaDucky Press. RHEIM ALKADHI was born into a cross-cultural family. In Iraq, she bicycled holding a kitten for delivery to a friend who lived in a mud home. In New England, she crouched mindlessly beneath an evergreen to make mud pies. She now lives on the second floor of a wooden house along a highway barrier. Her latest work, "My Lover in Unequal Parts," can be found at Rhizome.org. TARA BETTS is a longtime Chicago poet & educator. She now lives in New York and is a lecturer in Creative Writing at Rutgers University. This Cave Canem graduate recently received her MFA in Creative Writing from New England College. She has performed on HBO's Def Poetry Jam and the Black Family Channel's "SPOKEN." Her work appears in several publications including Essence, Bum Rush the Page, Callaloo, Gathering Ground and The Spoken Word Revolution. DAN GODSTON teaches literature and composition at Columbia College and poetry and other art forms through several arts education organizations. His poetry and fiction have appeared in Chase Park, Versal, 580 Split, Kyoto Journal, California Quarterly, after hours, Drunken Boat, and other publications. He also performs and composes music. ELIZABETH HARPER has lived in Chicago all her life and likes knowing her way around. Recently she read at “Lip,” The Poetry Center’s Reading Series at The Spot. Also she has read at the Polyrhythmic Arts Collective’s “Safe Smiles” Open Mic at Trace on Tuesday nights and at Monday Muse Mash-Up with Toni Asante Lightfoot. She has been featured at The New Mercury Cafe Open Mic Event hosted by Vito Carli. She has written two books of poetry, Love Songs from Psychopaths and Fairy Tales Gone Awry. Both books were designed by the artist Scott Marshall, who currently lives in New York. TOPHER HEMANN is a poet & stonemason who lives in Ossipee, N.H. LISA HEMMINGER is currently attending San Diego State University's MFA program. The host of the inimitable guerrilla open mike/cabaret show "Yammer" for seven years, she has been featured in articles in The Reader, The Chicago Tribune, The Chicago Sun-Times, Barfly, Third Cost Press, and Nightlines. Lisa is also the creator of the off-off-off-loop one-woman shows "Willy Nilly Philosophy, Silly," and "The Scariest Family Alive." She is the author of the chapbook collection "Colossus Taught Us" (Water of Life Press), Delivery, "The Complication Compilation," (Loki Graphics), and the working manuscript, "Paperwork." DAVID HARRISON HORTON is an artist, curator, and writer. His paintings, sculptures, sound installations and videos have been exhibited in New York, Berlin, Paris, and San Francisco. He curated the BorderBend Intermedia Performance series in Oakland, California from 2000-01 and the Salon Salon Reading and Performance Series in Oakland in 2002. He has written art criticism for Art Papers, Art on Paper, ArtWeek, Map Magazine, and Lifepaper. David is the author of the prose poetry chapbook Pete Hoffman Days (Pinball 2003) and his creative writing has been published in such journals as Denver Quarterly, The Oregon Review, and Five Fingers Review. More about David at http://unionherald.blogspot.com/. TONI ASANTE LIGHTFOOT is a native of Washington, DC. She was the president of the African American Writers Guild and co-founder of the Modern Urban Griots. From DC, Lightfoot moved to Trinidad and Tobago to run an artistic retreat and bed & breakfast. She moved to Chicago after a two year stint in Boston as a creative member and artistic director of Blackout Arts Collective. Lightfoot's poetry and reviews have been widely published and she is most recently the co-editor with Quraysh Ali Lansana of Dream of a Word:The Tia Chucha Press Anthology. ELIZABETH MARINO is a published poet and university-level educator who has lived in England and traveled extensively from her home base in Chicago. Her well-received chapbook, Debris: Poems and Memoir was released last year by Moon Journal Press. As a member of the She Laughs Collective, she contributed to the spoken word CD Elements of Life, Love and Action, produced by Mars Coulton. Publications include: Between the Heart and the Land/Entre el corazon y la tierra (MARCH/Abrazo Press), Breaking Mirrors/Raw Images (4:30 Poets), After Hours, Strong Coffee, Nit & Wit, the NAB Gallery Pamphlet Series and Envisage (U.K.). She is a graduate of the UIC Writer's Program. More info at http://voices.e-poets.net/MarinoE . ENEIDA MARTINO is Brooklyn-based and works in the fashion industry as a design room manager. She is also a professional actor and print model. She contributed to the anti-violence anthology Souls of My Sisters, writes poetry, and is currently completing her first novel. RYAN "SHMEDLY" MAYNES started playing piano when he was three years old and writing songs at the age of five. He has played in various bands including Floor 13, Date with Dizzy, Holliston Stops, Northern Lights (Keyboards), The Ben Vaughn Desert Classic (Bass, and Accordion), Arlo, and has been involved with many musical projects including recording with Weezer. Currently he lives in Pasadena with his wife and two sons and plays with the band The Electrolites. He's toured all over the world. The last few years he's enjoyed working with composers on such TV shows as Third Rock from the Sun, That 70's (and 80's) Show and Weeds. WANG PING was born in Shanghai and grew up on a small island in the East China Sea. After three years of farming in a mountain village, she attended Beijing University. In 1985 she left China to study in the U.S., earning her Ph.D. from New York University. Her books include The Magic Whip, Of Flesh & Spirit, Aching for Beauty: Footbinding in China, Foreign Devil, and American Visa. Wang is also the editor and co-translator of the anthology New Generation: Poetry from China Today and co-translator of Flames by Xue Di. She now lives in St. Paul, Minnesota, and teaches creative writing at Macalester College. MATTHIAS REGAN is a co-founder of the CAfF Collective and of Rubba Ducky Press. His books of poetry include The Most of It, CodeBookCode, Core Samples: From the Recent Debates, and Gulf War Decade (forthcoming). He advises and teaches at The University of Chicago and in the Chicago public schools through The Poetry Center's Hands on Stanzas program. JORIS SOEDING holds a B.A. in Poetry from Columbia College Chicago. His second and most recent chapbook, Trees. Otherness. Instance., is based on the television show The X-Files. His poetry has appeared in Apocalypse, City Works, Columbia Poetry Review, Pebble Lake Review, Red River Review, Romantic Outsider (England), and Third Coast Press. He is currently a Poet-in-Residence at the Poetry Center of Chicago, an Exhibit Interpreter at the Chicago Children's Museum, and a Managing Editor for Another Chicago Magazine. He resides in the Andersonville neighborhood with his wife, Christa, and cat, Claws. DUANE VORHEES teaches American troops in Korea on behalf of the University of Maryland. He has been actively involved in the Seoul Artist Network. The sun is shining, the peninsula is cool. Red Rover Series is curated bi-monthly by Amina Cain and Jennifer Karmin Got ideas for reading instructions & experiments? Email us at redroverseries@yahoogroups.com Coming up Experiment #12 with Laura Goldstein in April Experiment #13 with Kristin Prevallet in June ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 04:50:03 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: Haiku as a genre In-Reply-To: <8C9202CAE07A7E4-1428-2177@WEBMAIL-RD11.sysops.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Should we not read "santa ana" as one name? Remember the Alamo! > > warm santa > ana crumples silver > paper > > I would take "Ana" to be the name of a little girl, > and she's crushing silver paper, though we don't > know why. This is juxtaposed with "warm santa," so > the leap between these two elements is something in > common with haiku. But why is the Santa warm? I > don't get that -- and it's both unresolved and > probably unresolvable. Sure, the mention of Santa > and and silver paper suggests Christmas, but so > what? This fulfills a seasonal expectation for > haiku, but that in itself is not enough, even for > the best haiku. There is often something connected > TO a season that carries additional meaning in some > way, rather than merely giving you a sense of the > season. But what's the overall message or feeling > here? I feel a bit too confused by it to know, or to > feel enough from it. I think of the bilingual haiku > journal Ginyu, in Japan, edited by Ban'ya Natsuishi, > that might be attracted to this poem for its > avant-garde or slightly tantalizing (unresolved) > psychological effect (I mean "avant-garde > " in terms of haiku, of which Natsuishi is a leading > proponent). But I would still bet that most haiku > readers would be puzzled by it, in an unresovable > way, nor would they find any meta-resolution in > realizing that it's unresolvable, because even > *that* effect is achieved with more control than I > see in these words. It seems too confusing in its > whole effect, even while I like the image of a girl > crumpling silver paper. I can suspend my disbelief > on reading about a girl crumpling silver paper, but > I have trouble suspending disbelief when offered the > incomplete image of whatever a "warm santa" is. > (Also not keen on the word "paper" being a line by > itself.) Is this a haiku? I think it comes closer > than any of the other pieces offered here. On the > other hand, folks like Hiroaki Sato have said that > haiku is whatever a person wants to call a haiku. > That's a bit too liberal for me, or a way of dodging > any discussion of the matter, for clearly even he > himself has a notion that make > s a haiku different from, say, a novel. > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 00:32:01 -0500 Reply-To: h.c@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Holly Crawford Subject: Re: Sound Art in a Limo, NYC Feb 23-25 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII If you are in NYC next weekend. Sound Art in a Limo! Rest your eyes. Open your ears. Listen to art! Artists: Louise Lawler, John Baldessari, Nic Collins, Richard Kostelanetz, Lynne Tillman, Kiko Smith, David Linton, Paul Bowles, Eleanor Antin, Judy Fiskin, Mike Kelley, Martin Kersels, Jim Shaw, Alexis Smith, Jeffery Vallance, Doug Harvey, Joe Scanlan, Pia Lindman, Richard Hermann and China Blue, Orlan and Tanger, Jane Philbrick and many others. Refreshments and conversations are also on the menu. In the darkness of February a limo will zip around Manhattan for a half hour and passengers will be transported by sound art. Historical and current sound art by many different artists will be heard. 24 different spaces will be created over the 3 days. What: A white stretch limo Where: Pier 94, Amory Art Fair, limo drop off and pick up area in front of the entrance When: Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, February 23, 24, 25 starting at 3 pm and ending at 7pm Time: 20- 25 minutes. Board and return to the Armory at Pier 94. AC Institute’s Sound Art in a Limo is curated by Holly Crawford Sound art from the Tellus archives/ Harvestworks, Art Issues’ Sound Poems project by Gary Kornblau and Doug Harvey and many other artists. Holly Crawford h.c@earthlink.net A project by AC Institute, a 501-c-3 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 21:35:29 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Haiku as a genre In-Reply-To: <8C9202CAE07A7E4-1428-2177@WEBMAIL-RD11.sysops.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for your comments michael, I think your comments are interesting. I got some b/c comments about them from charles rossiter too, and I wanted to clarify something, and loathe as I am to do reads of my own poems, i do want to explain what i was trying to do with these because i composed them with the intention of trying to create "borderline" cases of haiku, that is, poems that fit uncomfortably within the genre. It's a sort of experiment, and one i'll probably pursue, but in response to your comments i'd like to shed a little light to see if maybe your greater experience with haiku might help me with my next foray into this kind of thing. so, basically, the task I set myself was to compose several poems that had the following features: 1.) some reference to nature 2.) some reference to seasonality 3.) a juxtaposition of elements 4.) a sense of a single experience or immediacy all the while remaining true to my own personal poetic commitments which involve among other things a certain ambiguity of syntax and the forcing of multivalence through the use of glued together sentence fragments and the resistance to the received form that most people know as The Complete Sentence. So I dashed off those poems to try to see just where the borders of the haiku might lie. as experiments, i'm not particularly concerned with how good they are, but i am interested in whether or not you think they're haiku, and if not, why not? I'll admit that i have a suspicion you have an so far undiscussed normative element that is in some way prescriptive and laudatory, that is, i get the impression from some of your statements that for you "haiku" is as much a name of a genre of poetry as it is a form of encomium. So there's a second question i have that i haven't yet asked: can a poem be bad (as is most certainly the case with my fourth example, by far the weakest of the four in my opinion but also one that i think is very haiku-like given my understanding of the genre) and still be a haiku? and to that point, what makes a bad haiku bad while allowing it to remain a haiku? toward that end: rain on march flush on the student body relies on several puns, the first the fact that march is a verb, a noun, and a Month (and from that seasonality); that "the student body" can be either a group of students or the body of a particular student; and finally that flush can either mean against and adjacent to (self-referencing the juxtaposition of the outdoors of a rain on a group of marching students) and the very intimate image of a young persons body that is "flushed" for some reason. warm santa ana crumples silver paper is meant to turn on any number of things, but the primary turn is the one that you seem to have missed that while ana is a female name, and santa is a bearded guy who brings presents, 'santa ana' is the name of a kind of warm wind that happens in the autumn and spring in southern california. other things i tried to pack in there is the traditional. so this one was really playing with the idea of genre by attempting to juxtapose seasons (autumn winter spring) while the other images juxtapose age (the bearded old man with the young girl exuberantly ripping paper). a cotton lycra weave lifts from plants it catches I won't comment any further on this one, Murat gave it precisely the reading i'd intended and i'd like to thank him for it, except to point out that part of the "juxtaposition" is the fact that cotton is a "natural" material derived from a low growing shrub that has sticks that could easily catch a garment, and lycra which is one of that is wholly synthetic made out of chains of polymers. both are the most widely used fibers in textiles of their respective types (synthetic or natural) and a large portion of garments worn in north america are made out a cotton/lycra fabrics. Also, while i went looking for pictures to show you, i found out that lycra is actually a brand name, and the etymology of cotton is from the arabic al qutun, which while neither here nor there poetically, might reveal more meaning if delved into more deeply. finally the last, and I think weakest, of the four i posted. It's interesting that you mentioned mime lifting fog because my green colors wax is a semi-procedural, aleatorical poem derived from kilbride's poem (which i like an awful lot, btw). what i did was move all the vowels in kilbrides poem back in the mouth so from the dipthong in mime /aI/, i got the dipthong /iu/. I couldn't think of a word for that, so i cheated and shortened it to /i/ from the /I/ in lifting, i got to the /uh/ of colors and from the ah in fog, i got the the aaa in wax. (there really ought to be an easy way to type IPA characters). so from there it was just a matter of fitting consonants around the vowels until I got a sequence of words that i liked. my problem with this one is that it stinks of the sort of cleverness that i generally don't like in poetry and that seems to be the stock in trade of writers like Billy Collins for example, but that was done well (thanks to the heavy injection of humanity) by Ted Berrigan, so I let this one live. basically, it all turns on the double meaning of "grean" "colors" and "wax" if green is a noun, colors is a verb and wax is a noun, you have an image of a crayon being made. if colors is the noun, green is an adjective, and wax is the verb, you have the image of flowering plants as the green of spring spreads. alternately, you could have green and wax as nouns, and colors as the verb, but read wax as the subject and green as the object, which is an image of someone using a crayon. all of which connote young life and growth. but again, i think this one is mostly crap primarily because there isn't much of an image in it, and i generally prefer short poems with strong images that aren't as necessary in longer pieces. ugh. even though i had a reason to do it, that's still not fun to do. sorry to inflict you all with my explanations. Basically none of these are great, but i would like to know michael, seeing how i read them from my standpoint on reading poetry, are they haiku do you think? are they the borderline cases i intended them to be? and if they aren't, do you think you could point me at some borderline cases, or perhaps some people who push at what haiku can and write haiku that might be of questionable pedigree? also, to my earlier point, i would LOVE to see an example of something you think is a BAD haiku that is still successfully haiku. thanks again for the comments on my four macedonia/zappai/maybe-haiku/ Michael Dylan Welch wrote: > I suppose it's possible, if one thinks of haiku as a "genre" of poetry, rather than merely a form, that pseudo-haiku, zappai, "haiku-like," and other variants could be part of the "haiku" genre. There's certainly an influence and connection. For years I used to think that haiku was merely anything I wrote in a 5-7-5-syllable pattern. But when I read the second edition of Cor van den Heuvel's *The Haiku Anthology* (1986), where 85+ percent of the poems are not 5-7-5, it confronted me with what makes them haiku, because, for most of them, it certainly wasn't 5-7-5 (and those that were 5-7-5 were generally much older; the third edition of his book has much fewer 5-7-5 poems). So what happened for me, on reading Cor's book, was a dramatic shift -- from focusing on form to focusing on content. This was an epiphany for me, just as thinking of haiku as a genre rather than a form seems to be an epiphany for you, Jason. My epiphany made a world of difference to me, and subsequently my > own haiku dramatically improved in quality (and so, too, I think, did my other poetry, because I began writing from a more internal than external place, if that makes sense, a place of trying to say something from myself rather than letting form say something for me). > > What this may mean for others who write haiku (or dabble in it) could be similar. Over and over I have seen beginner haiku where the poet's focus is predominantly on form, with minimal thought being given to content, or to the other techniques that literary haiku tends to require (kigo, kireji, and so on). Or in some cases (such as most haiku by Sonia Sanchez), there's a co-opting of the form (and I do mean just the perceived "form") for personal purposes, in her case to project vernacular voice (which she does well, but it still has relatively little to do with haiku). A similar trick is done by Paul Muldoon in his haiku -- a co-opting of the form for his own needs. And by co-opting primarily just the form (and again, not necessarily the right form in English, at that), such poems tend to ignore the larger requirements of the genre. A shift to think of haiku as a genre greatly broadens not only what's possible within the genre, but also what is necessary. > > So, are the following poems haiku? Some comments below. Obviously, these are personal and off-the-cuff reactions, and someone else might point out additional virtues or weaknesses (indeed, such is the nature of very short poetry that interpretation typically becames more personal as the poems get shorter). > > rain on > march flush > on the student body > > I don't get it. I have trouble parsing the syntax here, so to me I don't get it at all, and this has nothing to do with whether it's a haiku or not. What's a "march flush"? I could possibly see the flush of cold on the cheeks of people if it's cold, but to say the entire student body is much too diffuse. But how this connects with the poem as a whole is confusing to me, at least syntactically. Is "rain on" a declaration, like "party on!," or should I expect it to be followed by a noun or noun phrase, as in, the rain is falling on something? If the former, it seems an odd declaration. If the latter, then neither "march" nor "flush" follow logically/gramatically, so I'm confused. Nor does the middle line even interrupt the first and second line, which is apparent from the use of "on" again in the third line. So I'm merely baffled here, even while I'm stretching to try to get something. Haiku tend to rely on concrete images, so the rain and the student body (though rather gen era > l) are the best examples of that here. The best haiku also tend to rely on believable (authentic?) personal experience, so the oddities of syntax here take it away from my experience, or even an experience I could imagine. In fact, to some degree, it defies experience entirely, as if trying to do something else, yet what that might be still eludes me, and if it eludes readers that much, it's probably too intellectual or imaginative a construct to have the immediacy of the best haiku. If poetry is meant to communicate something (whether facts or feeling or something else), perhaps this poem doesn't work, because I'm left more confused (for no apparent reason) than with any feeling of understanding. > > warm santa > ana crumples silver > paper > > I would take "Ana" to be the name of a little girl, and she's crushing silver paper, though we don't know why. This is juxtaposed with "warm santa," so the leap between these two elements is something in common with haiku. But why is the Santa warm? I don't get that -- and it's both unresolved and probably unresolvable. Sure, the mention of Santa and and silver paper suggests Christmas, but so what? This fulfills a seasonal expectation for haiku, but that in itself is not enough, even for the best haiku. There is often something connected TO a season that carries additional meaning in some way, rather than merely giving you a sense of the season. But what's the overall message or feeling here? I feel a bit too confused by it to know, or to feel enough from it. I think of the bilingual haiku journal Ginyu, in Japan, edited by Ban'ya Natsuishi, that might be attracted to this poem for its avant-garde or slightly tantalizing (unresolved) psychological effect (I mean "avant-ga rde > " in terms of haiku, of which Natsuishi is a leading proponent). But I would still bet that most haiku readers would be puzzled by it, in an unresovable way, nor would they find any meta-resolution in realizing that it's unresolvable, because even *that* effect is achieved with more control than I see in these words. It seems too confusing in its whole effect, even while I like the image of a girl crumpling silver paper. I can suspend my disbelief on reading about a girl crumpling silver paper, but I have trouble suspending disbelief when offered the incomplete image of whatever a "warm santa" is. (Also not keen on the word "paper" being a line by itself.) Is this a haiku? I think it comes closer than any of the other pieces offered here. On the other hand, folks like Hiroaki Sato have said that haiku is whatever a person wants to call a haiku. That's a bit too liberal for me, or a way of dodging any discussion of the matter, for clearly even he himself has a notion that m ake > s a haiku different from, say, a novel. > > a cotton lycra weave lifts > from plants it catches > > I don't quite get this, either, whether haiku or not. I don't quite understand what is happening, or why it is happening. Why would a weave of something "catch" plants? And why plants? And why is it important to say that the weave is made of cotton lycra? And why would that weave then "lift" from the plants it catches? And if it caught the plants, wouldn't it take the plants with it if it lifts, and thus not lift *from* the plants? How can it lift from *and* catch the plants? And what on earth for? I don't mind something being illogical, to some degree, but I do want there still to be a discernable reason for the illogic, and that's missing here, at least for me. Haiku is oftentimes considered an unfinished poem, but this poem is TOO incomplete, and a good haiku provides just a little bit more information than this. More importantly, I don't understand what intuition or feeling I'm supposed to get from this. As a result, I feel detached from it rather than engaged by it, a nd > engagement is a key thing that helps distinguish a haiku, or at least its effect. And of course, something may "be" a haiku, but it's a separate matter as to whether it's a weak or strong haiku. > > green > colors > wax > > Again, what am I supposed to feel here? There's also no clarity of location or context. It's too ambiguous or general for me to know what to do with it. I have no problem with the minimalism, though, and I immediately think of a prize-winning minimalist haiku by the late Jerry Kilbride: > > mime > lifting > fog > > Here, by the use of the word "fog," we know we are outside, and so it's easy to see a mime in a city or park setting, like any other street performer. So, despite the minimalism, there's enough information here to ground the poem in common personal experience, and it's not obscure or excessively ambiguous. And what an interesting image to see the mime in the fog. White-faced and white-gloved, too! And then to see the mime's actions: Instead of being trapped in an invisible box or miming some other scenario, we see him physically lifting the fog, or trying to. To some, this poem is probably on the fringe of haiku. However, I would argue that it's closer to traditional haiku than they might think. Fog is a season word, for example (at least I'm pretty sure it is, without looking it up in a saijiki -- season-word almanac). And the poem has a curious property of being readable in two ways, employing what is called a kakekatoba in Japanese, or a pivot word (somewhat like the ze ugm > a in Western literature). One can read this as mime (period), and then you see "lifting fog" (where it's lifting by itself, perhaps to reveal that there's a mime there). Or it can be read as the mime lifting the fog, in the inimitable way of mimes everywhere. Is the mime lifting the fog, or is the fog lifting by itself in the presence of a mime? It's this oscillation between two possible readings or meanings that shows the poem to be akin to haiku, at least for me. And of course the immediate objective imagery is almost so fundamental as to be easy not to mention, yet that too is important. Kilbride's poem, in contrast to "green / colors / wax," shows what can be done with minimalism under the haiku rubric. Here, too, is a similarly minimalist poem of mine, that I think functions in ways similar to Kilbride's poem > > night > falling > snow > > I believe this offering can be read in several different ways, depending whether you put a pause or break after the first or the second line, or have no break and read it all of a piece, or perhaps even have two breaks. All variations are possible. Will such poems change the world? No, of course not. But by their sharp focus, I believe poems like this -- indeed, all the best haiku -- can make you appreciate the world around you. Rachel Carson has written about the value of noticing nature, to have a sense of wonder. Haiku, perhaps more than any other poem, embodies this sense of wonder, and seeks to share it from writer to reader. > > Michael > > > > -----Original Message----- > Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 21:51:04 -0800 > From: Jason Quackenbush > Subject: Re: Haiku dumbness / snobbishness > > hrm, i want to understand. you're getting close to me getting it with your talk > of genre. but still you're a little too vague for me. genre to me > implies that some things can be more haiku like, that there are some things that > might be borderline cases of haiku, and THAT strikes me as very > interesting. > > So I'm curious, are any of these four things haiku? > > rain on > march flush > on the student body > > warm santa > ana crumples silver > paper > > a cotton lycra weave lifts > from plants it catches > > green > colors > wax > > i'd like to know what you would consider a fringe case, because such things > really interest me and thinking of haiku as genre rather than form feels > a bit epiphanic. so thanks. > > oh, and as for the point about making a concerted effort to praise haiku rather > than say what it isn't, i was referring more to comments in these > threads. I'm sure there are all manner of excellent books, i just thought that > the tone of the conversation on the poetics list seemed overly focussed > on why some things aren't haiku rather than why other things are. > ________________________________________________________________________ > Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 21:39:42 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Haiku as a genre In-Reply-To: <1dec21ae0702161502o4e9fcd05tb08e446dc7f619b6@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you so much murat! i can't think of a better compliment than for somebody to read something i've written and to get from it what i wanted to put in it. Murat Nemet-Nejat wrote: > Michael, > > "a cotton lycra weave lifts/ from plants it catches" seems to the in terms > of spirit, rather than strict form, the closest to Haiku. It is about > perception. A piece of cloth is caught/snagged (during walk?) by a plant > (with thorns). The continuing motion pulls the plant for a moment, but > then > the plant is detached. It is this moment between catching and detaching > (the > puill of motion and counter pull of the static) which the poem catches, > which is wonderful, and it seems to me exactly in the spirit of haiku. > > The chairs, in half > beings buried in > snow, > are > pigeons > > in the park. > > > I am enjoying your posts. > > Ciao, > > Murat > > On 2/16/07, Michael Dylan Welch wrote: > >> >> I suppose it's possible, if one thinks of haiku as a "genre" of poetry, >> rather than merely a form, that pseudo-haiku, zappai, "haiku-like," and >> other variants could be part of the "haiku" genre. There's certainly an >> influence and connection. For years I used to think that haiku was merely >> anything I wrote in a 5-7-5-syllable pattern. But when I read the second >> edition of Cor van den Heuvel's *The Haiku Anthology* (1986), where 85+ >> percent of the poems are not 5-7-5, it confronted me with what makes them >> haiku, because, for most of them, it certainly wasn't 5-7-5 (and those >> that >> were 5-7-5 were generally much older; the third edition of his book >> has much >> fewer 5-7-5 poems). So what happened for me, on reading Cor's book, was a >> dramatic shift -- from focusing on form to focusing on content. This >> was an >> epiphany for me, just as thinking of haiku as a genre rather than a form >> seems to be an epiphany for you, Jason. My epiphany made a world of >> difference to me, and subsequently my >> own haiku dramatically improved in quality (and so, too, I think, did my >> other poetry, because I began writing from a more internal than external >> place, if that makes sense, a place of trying to say something from >> myself >> rather than letting form say something for me). >> >> What this may mean for others who write haiku (or dabble in it) could be >> similar. Over and over I have seen beginner haiku where the poet's >> focus is >> predominantly on form, with minimal thought being given to content, or to >> the other techniques that literary haiku tends to require (kigo, >> kireji, and >> so on). Or in some cases (such as most haiku by Sonia Sanchez), there's a >> co-opting of the form (and I do mean just the perceived "form") for >> personal >> purposes, in her case to project vernacular voice (which she does >> well, but >> it still has relatively little to do with haiku). A similar trick is >> done by >> Paul Muldoon in his haiku -- a co-opting of the form for his own >> needs. And >> by co-opting primarily just the form (and again, not necessarily the >> right >> form in English, at that), such poems tend to ignore the larger >> requirements >> of the genre. A shift to think of haiku as a genre greatly broadens >> not only >> what's possible within the genre, but also what is necessary. >> >> So, are the following poems haiku? Some comments below. Obviously, these >> are personal and off-the-cuff reactions, and someone else might point out >> additional virtues or weaknesses (indeed, such is the nature of very >> short >> poetry that interpretation typically becames more personal as the >> poems get >> shorter). >> >> rain on >> march flush >> on the student body >> >> I don't get it. I have trouble parsing the syntax here, so to me I don't >> get it at all, and this has nothing to do with whether it's a haiku or >> not. >> What's a "march flush"? I could possibly see the flush of cold on the >> cheeks >> of people if it's cold, but to say the entire student body is much too >> diffuse. But how this connects with the poem as a whole is confusing >> to me, >> at least syntactically. Is "rain on" a declaration, like "party on!," or >> should I expect it to be followed by a noun or noun phrase, as in, the >> rain >> is falling on something? If the former, it seems an odd declaration. >> If the >> latter, then neither "march" nor "flush" follow >> logically/gramatically, so >> I'm confused. Nor does the middle line even interrupt the first and >> second >> line, which is apparent from the use of "on" again in the third line. >> So I'm >> merely baffled here, even while I'm stretching to try to get something. >> Haiku tend to rely on concrete images, so the rain and the student body >> (though rather genera >> l) are the best examples of that here. The best haiku also tend to >> rely on >> believable (authentic?) personal experience, so the oddities of syntax >> here >> take it away from my experience, or even an experience I could >> imagine. In >> fact, to some degree, it defies experience entirely, as if trying to do >> something else, yet what that might be still eludes me, and if it eludes >> readers that much, it's probably too intellectual or imaginative a >> construct >> to have the immediacy of the best haiku. If poetry is meant to >> communicate >> something (whether facts or feeling or something else), perhaps this poem >> doesn't work, because I'm left more confused (for no apparent reason) >> than >> with any feeling of understanding. >> >> warm santa >> ana crumples silver >> paper >> >> I would take "Ana" to be the name of a little girl, and she's crushing >> silver paper, though we don't know why. This is juxtaposed with "warm >> santa," so the leap between these two elements is something in common >> with >> haiku. But why is the Santa warm? I don't get that -- and it's both >> unresolved and probably unresolvable. Sure, the mention of Santa and and >> silver paper suggests Christmas, but so what? This fulfills a seasonal >> expectation for haiku, but that in itself is not enough, even for the >> best >> haiku. There is often something connected TO a season that carries >> additional meaning in some way, rather than merely giving you a sense >> of the >> season. But what's the overall message or feeling here? I feel a bit too >> confused by it to know, or to feel enough from it. I think of the >> bilingual >> haiku journal Ginyu, in Japan, edited by Ban'ya Natsuishi, that might be >> attracted to this poem for its avant-garde or slightly tantalizing >> (unresolved) psychological effect (I mean "avant-garde >> " in terms of haiku, of which Natsuishi is a leading proponent). But I >> would still bet that most haiku readers would be puzzled by it, in an >> unresovable way, nor would they find any meta-resolution in realizing >> that >> it's unresolvable, because even *that* effect is achieved with more >> control >> than I see in these words. It seems too confusing in its whole effect, >> even >> while I like the image of a girl crumpling silver paper. I can suspend my >> disbelief on reading about a girl crumpling silver paper, but I have >> trouble >> suspending disbelief when offered the incomplete image of whatever a >> "warm >> santa" is. (Also not keen on the word "paper" being a line by itself.) Is >> this a haiku? I think it comes closer than any of the other pieces >> offered >> here. On the other hand, folks like Hiroaki Sato have said that haiku is >> whatever a person wants to call a haiku. That's a bit too liberal for >> me, or >> a way of dodging any discussion of the matter, for clearly even he >> himself >> has a notion that make >> s a haiku different from, say, a novel. >> >> a cotton lycra weave lifts >> from plants it catches >> >> I don't quite get this, either, whether haiku or not. I don't quite >> understand what is happening, or why it is happening. Why would a >> weave of >> something "catch" plants? And why plants? And why is it important to say >> that the weave is made of cotton lycra? And why would that weave then >> "lift" >> from the plants it catches? And if it caught the plants, wouldn't it take >> the plants with it if it lifts, and thus not lift *from* the plants? >> How can >> it lift from *and* catch the plants? And what on earth for? I don't mind >> something being illogical, to some degree, but I do want there still >> to be a >> discernable reason for the illogic, and that's missing here, at least for >> me. Haiku is oftentimes considered an unfinished poem, but this poem >> is TOO >> incomplete, and a good haiku provides just a little bit more information >> than this. More importantly, I don't understand what intuition or feeling >> I'm supposed to get from this. As a result, I feel detached from it >> rather >> than engaged by it, and >> engagement is a key thing that helps distinguish a haiku, or at least its >> effect. And of course, something may "be" a haiku, but it's a separate >> matter as to whether it's a weak or strong haiku. >> >> green >> colors >> wax >> >> Again, what am I supposed to feel here? There's also no clarity of >> location or context. It's too ambiguous or general for me to know what >> to do >> with it. I have no problem with the minimalism, though, and I immediately >> think of a prize-winning minimalist haiku by the late Jerry Kilbride: >> >> mime >> lifting >> fog >> >> Here, by the use of the word "fog," we know we are outside, and so it's >> easy to see a mime in a city or park setting, like any other street >> performer. So, despite the minimalism, there's enough information here to >> ground the poem in common personal experience, and it's not obscure or >> excessively ambiguous. And what an interesting image to see the mime >> in the >> fog. White-faced and white-gloved, too! And then to see the mime's >> actions: >> Instead of being trapped in an invisible box or miming some other >> scenario, >> we see him physically lifting the fog, or trying to. To some, this >> poem is >> probably on the fringe of haiku. However, I would argue that it's >> closer to >> traditional haiku than they might think. Fog is a season word, for >> example >> (at least I'm pretty sure it is, without looking it up in a saijiki -- >> season-word almanac). And the poem has a curious property of being >> readable >> in two ways, employing what is called a kakekatoba in Japanese, or a >> pivot >> word (somewhat like the zeugm >> a in Western literature). One can read this as mime (period), and then >> you >> see "lifting fog" (where it's lifting by itself, perhaps to reveal that >> there's a mime there). Or it can be read as the mime lifting the fog, >> in the >> inimitable way of mimes everywhere. Is the mime lifting the fog, or is >> the >> fog lifting by itself in the presence of a mime? It's this oscillation >> between two possible readings or meanings that shows the poem to be >> akin to >> haiku, at least for me. And of course the immediate objective imagery is >> almost so fundamental as to be easy not to mention, yet that too is >> important. Kilbride's poem, in contrast to "green / colors / wax," shows >> what can be done with minimalism under the haiku rubric. Here, too, is a >> similarly minimalist poem of mine, that I think functions in ways >> similar to >> Kilbride's poem >> >> night >> falling >> snow >> >> I believe this offering can be read in several different ways, depending >> whether you put a pause or break after the first or the second line, >> or have >> no break and read it all of a piece, or perhaps even have two breaks. All >> variations are possible. Will such poems change the world? No, of course >> not. But by their sharp focus, I believe poems like this -- indeed, >> all the >> best haiku -- can make you appreciate the world around you. Rachel Carson >> has written about the value of noticing nature, to have a sense of >> wonder. >> Haiku, perhaps more than any other poem, embodies this sense of >> wonder, and >> seeks to share it from writer to reader. >> >> Michael >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 21:51:04 -0800 >> From: Jason Quackenbush >> Subject: Re: Haiku dumbness / snobbishness >> >> hrm, i want to understand. you're getting close to me getting it with >> your >> talk >> of genre. but still you're a little too vague for me. genre to me >> implies that some things can be more haiku like, that there are some >> things that >> might be borderline cases of haiku, and THAT strikes me as very >> interesting. >> >> So I'm curious, are any of these four things haiku? >> >> rain on >> march flush >> on the student body >> >> warm santa >> ana crumples silver >> paper >> >> a cotton lycra weave lifts >> from plants it catches >> >> green >> colors >> wax >> >> i'd like to know what you would consider a fringe case, because such >> things >> really interest me and thinking of haiku as genre rather than form feels >> a bit epiphanic. so thanks. >> >> oh, and as for the point about making a concerted effort to praise haiku >> rather >> than say what it isn't, i was referring more to comments in these >> threads. I'm sure there are all manner of excellent books, i just thought >> that >> the tone of the conversation on the poetics list seemed overly focussed >> on why some things aren't haiku rather than why other things are. >> ________________________________________________________________________ >> Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and >> security >> tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the >> web, >> free AOL Mail and more. >> ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 02:30:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Qbico 56 LP review (someone had to) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/Mixed; BOUNDARY="0-1235350195-1171697399=:89" This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --0-1235350195-1171697399=:89 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=utf-8; FORMAT=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Content-ID: Qbico 56 LP review Review @ http://www.volcanictongue.com/ Alan Sondheim 56 Qbico #56 LP =C2=A312.99 Poet, metalinguist, cultural theorist and musician Alan Sondheim is best-loved by consumers of sub-underground fare for the stellar sides he recorded for ESP-Disk in the late-60s. But prior to that he was already active as an improviser in Rhode Island working with Ritual All 770, a multi-disciplinary group that combined brass, vocals, tranced hand percussion, bass and drums with a great up-ending attitude to avant garde sources that was reminiscent of the way that the Los Angeles Free Music Society would later use a goofy strategy of provocative art prank as a cover to allow non-initiates to work on serious formal breakthroughs. The Songs - an early collaboration between the two - was originally issued on Riverboat Records in 1967 and has remained fairly unknown outside of All 770's appearance on the legendary Nurse With Wound list that appeared in copies of that group's first album, Chance Meeting On A Dissecting Table Of A Sewing Machine And An Umbrella. 56 represents his first new LP in 35 years. Here Sondheim is solo, using guitar, alpine zither, electronics and field recordings. The guitar material orbits a bunch of singular hemispheres that would seem to locate the arc of his melodic thought somewhere between the odd, baroque constructions of Sandy Bull and the knotty dissonance of John Fahey - or even at points Derek Bailey - while the electronics and field recordings are full of subtle concentric rings of melodic suggestion and feel almost like close-ups on organic events, full of refracted slow-motion pulses and coronas of phantom tone. The whole set is perfectly assembled, with tracks short enough not to be too gruelling and long enough to reveal their full transportational properties. Indeed, I'd go so far as to say it was Sondheim's most accomplished work to date. A classic of avant extension and highly recommended. news =09tip of the tongue =09catalogue =09contributor columns label =09events =09email updates =09contact =09order info secondhand & rare =09wholesale & distribution =09photos http://www.a-musik.com/cart/catalog.php?label=3D739&am_id=3D238b... SONDHEIM, ALAN =0956 red vinyl with white, photos by alan sondheim, cover by qbico. rec. 2005/06 in ny and la. "after releasing two unique lp back in the 60's for the legendary esp label with his ritual all 770 and another one for riverboat, finally alan sondheim is back ! this is his 1st lp after nearly 35 years and here he plays guitar, alpine zither, electronics, field recording... as usual he present us an eclectic mix of fascinating sounds..." (label info) QBICO LP E=C2=8017.90 http://www.lifegatemusicshop.it/catalog/product_info.php?ln=3Dfra&products_= id=3DC68061 Recherche Avanc=C3=A9e Recherche Avanc=C3=A9e SONDHEIM, ALAN - 56 22.03 Euro Date de sortie:2007-02-01 Support:1 LP Genre:EXPERIMENTAL MUSIC Label:QBICO Disponibilit=C3=A9 dans:20-22 jours Barcode: Imprim=C3=A9 en:NL =3D=3D=3D Also look for FireMuseum ski/nn and The Songs, ESP recordings, et= c. =3D=3D=3D --0-1235350195-1171697399=:89-- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 02:39:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: Reel Histrionic In-Reply-To: <1dec21ae0702161257v4848c0bbod186387ee96985c3@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Death doesn't become a song; the song is prior to death. The threshold which lays poetics to rest perhaps, something Auschwitz clearly didn't do, is that - at least for me - of everything we might hold dear - that is, the wild, the compassionate, survival with grace. It's hard to visualize the catastrophe around the corner, when we associate catastrophe literally with sudden transformation, war, trauma - not this slow rise of tempera- ture, or the picking off of animals one by one. We react as if it were another turn or fear of the apocalypse, i.e. 'we've heard it all before' - as if this means it's not there now, we're in a permanent state of crying wolf. But animals literally on their last legs have heard it as well, time and time again, and still it comes. I'm at a loss for the poetics here, just as in I think Parmenides, Socrates was at a loss when muck, mud, was brought to the foreground in the discussion of ideal forms. Within the digital, within the idealized digital, there is no in-between - either here/there, or 0/1, or whateverx/whatevery - the rest of the world is held at bay behind the walls of a potential well sufficient to permit communication in the small - i.e. to permit communication. One might say: within the liminal, the digital doesn't exist - the analogic exists only within the liminal. Aphoristic, but accurate, perhaps nothing more needs to be said, or what else might be said might be of or within an/other register. - Alan On Fri, 16 Feb 2007, Murat Nemet-Nejat wrote: > Alan, > > The poetics of death, dying, as in your nightmare piece a few weeks ago. > > Each of these posts is an island, separated by the passage of time/thought > in between, which may only be a silence. I am very interested in the > threshhold you are talking about. Can you elaborate? It appears that the > threshold, the gasp/death in between is what is the most potent. > > How do silence and death become a song? Is it not through silence? the gaps? > > > Masculin-Feminine > > An argument why she should turn from him to him > > .An argument why she should turn from him to him > > .An argument why she should turn from him to him > > e m n > e > > F I N I > > > > I hope Masc/Fem has kept its visual shape. internet entropy. > > Ciao, > > Murat > > On 2/16/07, Alan Sondheim wrote: >> >> Using the model of silent film performance, the digital is not only the >> series of islands, but the performance of the journey itself. The analogic >> is the abject which cannot be contained, curtailed, the shores of the >> islands, their sad susceptibility to global warming. >> >> At this point, and it's my depression speaking, I can't help but fore- >> ground everything cultural against the ravaging of the planet, the >> slaughter of human and wild animal populations, the furious violence of >> our government, governments everywhere. The silent films seem innocent but >> speak otherwise of innocence; the seeds of destruction are already there. >> >> Islands have moved to Second Life, and everyone and everything is buying >> an island - universities, security agencies, art groups, cultural insti- >> tutions of all sorts. It's this I'm thinking about at the moment, because >> performance and gesture in SL parallels silent film in terms of phenom- >> enology and histrionic. Sound in SL seems third-person, an add-on; later, >> it will become more integrated of course, and the use of prosthetics will >> eliminate the need for pre-programmed gestures - first-life and second- >> life will appear equally analogic, equally 'smooth.' On one hand the rest >> of the world (what passes past for the real) will seem distant and somehow >> safer; on the other, the rest of the world, left to its own devices, will >> continue the killing beyond any reason or proportion. We are living in >> massacre; repertoire is symptom. What is the poetics of the dead poached >> elephant, with its face cut off, whose photograph appears in the current >> National Geographic? What is the poetics? >> >> - Alan >> >> >> On Fri, 16 Feb 2007, Murat Nemet-Nejat wrote: >> >> > Alan, >> > >> > I have a sensual desire to apprehend your distinction between analogic >> and >> > digital. Is in the digital what is apprehended a series of islands? Is >> the >> > trip to the islands, that journey, analogic? By that, things are >> reversed. >> > The humdrum of our lives, the process, is our truth. What we arrive at >> is >> > elusive, contemplative and only static, non sensual. Is that not sad? >> > >> > Ciao, >> > >> > Murat >> > >> > On 2/15/07, Alan Sondheim wrote: >> >> >> >> Reel Histrionic >> >> >> >> >> >> In Eloquent Gestures, The Transformation of Performance Style in the >> >> Griffith Biograph films, Roberta E. Pearson describes 'histrionic' and >> >> 'verisimilar' codes of acting - a transformation from a melodramatic >> locus >> >> to incipient realism. She considers them in relation to 'analogical' >> and >> >> 'digital' communication: "Though most gestural communication systems >> are >> >> unsegmented and analogic, the histrionic code, with its emphasis on the >> >> isolation of gesture, does resemble segmented, digital communications >> such >> >> as speech. Actors deliberately struck attitudes, holding each gesture >> and >> >> abstracting it from the flow of motion until the audience had 'read >> it.'" >> >> [...] "Not only were aspiring actors told to 'rest long enough in a >> >> gesture,' they were urged to avoid excessive movement, which might >> detract >> >> from attitude-striking." [...] "The elimination of the small gestures >> >> brings about the physical equivalent of silence between the grand, >> posed >> >> gestures, resulting in the 'discrete, discontinuous elements and gaps' >> of >> >> digital communication." In contrast, the analogical references the >> uncoded >> >> real, motions and emotions of daily life. >> >> >> >> The digital is catastrophic, fold-catastrophic; it consists of jumps >> >> between gestures or stances, between emotions and their concretion as >> >> attitude. The histrionic is dependent upon the diegetic - it as acted >> >> action of the unfolding interpreted world. The histrionic is therefore >> >> always stylized and responsive, within and up to thresholding. A >> threshold >> >> is constituted by an increased differentiation between gesture and the >> >> diegetic real; this itself is stylized. In other words, there are two >> >> levels of code, stylization at work: the semantic contents of >> individuated >> >> gestures, and the syntactic divisions between them. The gestures are >> >> individuated (not individual); as with other linguistic formation, they >> >> are constituted by difference, differance, the playing among gestures >> >> 'down the line of the unfolding of the diegetic.' So histrionic >> gestures >> >> bridge from one moment to another in the form <------<----<----- - they >> >> are held positions until anomaly (threshold) defers them. >> >> >> >> Gestures are concretions operating within time's arrow, objectifying >> the >> >> body in a sequence of irreversible positions. The body constitutes the >> >> proffering of desire - it is held for the viewer, much as the display >> of >> >> the (sexualized) body operated in some elements of Weimar dance/cabaret >> >> culture. This holding is reminiscent of the still pornographic image, >> >> which is presented to the (mostly male) viewer; the viewer is aware >> that >> >> the histrionic is there for his or her pleasure. In the pornographic >> >> photograph, the erogenous zones function as 'strange attractors'; the >> >> diegetic is constructed by the viewer who creates a narratology >> resulting >> >> in masturbation, the cessation of (that) pleasure. The zones, however, >> are >> >> grounded in the analogical, the abject; the viewer is without the >> gesture >> >> of the histrionic (in both silent film and pornography). >> >> >> >> Stylized gestures reference a repertoire, of course; they must be >> under- >> >> stood by both the actor (in re/presentation) and viewer (as indexical >> >> within the diegetic). And repertoires are always stylized, enumerations >> of >> >> entities that play, one way or another, within specified cultural >> milieus. >> >> In this sense, all repertoires are accumulations of conventions and >> genre; >> >> in the case of the histrionic, they are a rough set of mappings into >> (and >> >> constituting) the diegesis, in order that the photoplay 'move forward' >> for >> >> both actor and spectator. (This moving is literally self-centered >> within >> >> the pornographic, which plays within the (transitive and transitional) >> >> body of the viewer in both (interrelated) psychoanalytical and >> biophysical >> >> registers.) >> >> >> >> (But pornography as well as photoplay is never fully reductive; defuge >> >> creates another deferral, from image to image, film to film. This is >> what >> >> might be considered the 'repressed of the analogical,' the referencing >> of >> >> the clean and proper body and life-story in relation to the messiness >> and >> >> decathection of everyday life. The analogical is always excessive and >> >> irreducible; digital mappings are mappings from one-to-many, mappings >> into >> >> the analogical (body and) real. Digital mappings are not only stylized; >> >> they are undergoing continuous transformations, splittings, >> decathecting, >> >> disinvestment, as the surplus of the analog has moved elsewhere. What >> >> constitutes pornography or photoplay, fashion or convention, at one >> >> synchronic instant, is constituted elsewhere at the next. The >> repression >> >> constructed by the diegesis itself (which leaves out so many things in >> the >> >> world) returns in so many different forms which become increasingly >> >> mutually unreadable.) >> >> >> >> "The name _sensuality_ seems to be taken from the sensual movement, of >> >> which Augustine speaks, just as the name of a power is taken from its >> act, >> >> for instance, sight from seeing. Now the sensual movement is an >> appetite >> >> following sensible apprehension. For the act of the apprehensive power >> is >> >> not so properly called a movement as the act of appetite; since the >> >> operation of the apprehensive power is completed in the very fact that >> the >> >> thing apprehended is in the one that apprehends, while the operation of >> >> the appetitive power is completed in the fact that he who desires is >> borne >> >> towards the desirable thing. Hence it is that the operation of the >> appre- >> >> hensive power is likened to rest; whereas the operation of the >> appetitive >> >> power is rather likened to movement. Therefore by sensual movement we >> >> understand the operation of the appetitive power. Thus, sensuality is >> the >> >> name of the sensitive appetitive." (From Aquinas, Summa Theologica, >> trans- >> >> lated by Anton C. Pegis, Introduction to St. Thomas Aquinas, Modern >> >> Library, 1948.) >> >> >> >> [ of little relation: http://www.asondheim.org/aquinas.mp3 ] >> >> >> >> === >> >> >> > >> > >> >> >> ======================================================================= >> Work on YouTube, blog at http://nikuko.blogspot.com . Tel 718-813-3285. >> Webpage directory http://www.asondheim.org . Email: sondheim@panix.com. >> http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim for theory; also check >> WVU Zwiki, Google for recent. Write for info on books, cds, performance, >> dvds, etc. ============================================================= >> > > ======================================================================= Work on YouTube, blog at http://nikuko.blogspot.com . Tel 718-813-3285. Webpage directory http://www.asondheim.org . Email: sondheim@panix.com. http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim for theory; also check WVU Zwiki, Google for recent. Write for info on books, cds, performance, dvds, etc. ============================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 08:50:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aryanil Mukherjee Subject: Re: Reel Histrionic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Within the digital, within the idealized digital, there is no in-between - > either here/there, or 0/1, or whateverx/whatevery - the rest of the world > is held at bay behind the walls of a potential well sufficient to permit > communication in the small - i.e. to permit communication. One might say: > > within the liminal, the digital doesn't exist - > the analogic exists only within the liminal. > Well the way a realistic digital world works, seems to prove your corollary conversely. "Digital Data",the entire amount of digital data the world handles today, has place for every single type, you name it. It just doesn't hold integers used for performing boolean math, it houses reals, floats, doubles, unsigned numbers, complex numbers, alphanumeric and beyond. The representation is, however, boolean like. So, it really hands out to us a grain of rice that has the village's history imprinted in miniature... (and this by the way, this is no metaphor, but hard reality....I know several village artists in India who write folklores in ink on a solitary grain of rice)....... So, can't it be read conversely ? Couldn't we see the "digital age" as one where the pearly, empty symbol suddenly weighs like iron, where the metaphor works as a singular closet used to store all the masks a mardi gras needs? Aryanil ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 10:05:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Waber Subject: Anaclastic alphabet, by Amira Hanafi Comments: To: announce MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii As we wave goodbye to the z of Rune 10, Rose Window, by Karl Kempton (Runaway Spoon Press, 1999), it's time to wave hello to the a of the Anaclastic alphabet by Amira Hanafi. New series starting today at: http://www.logolalia.com/abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz/ Regards, Dan Submissions of artworks based around the complete sequence of the roman alphabet which can be presented a letter at a time over the course of 26 days are invited. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 09:14:11 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Trigilio Organization: http://www.starve.org Subject: Re: visiting writer position MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ray-- One place to go for a donation address is the Frank Sherlock Emergency Fund posting last Sunday on Ron Silliman's blog. Best, Tony --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 22:41:14 +0000 > Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group > Sender: UB Poetics discussion group > From: Raymond Bianchi > Subject: Re: visiting writer position > Comments: cc: Murat Nemet-Nejat > Content-Type: text/plain > > All If those of us who are not in NYC or Philly want to donate what is > an address that we can send a check?? Please advise Ray --------- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 12:49:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: Reel Histrionic In-Reply-To: <000401c7529a$88dc03f0$6101a8c0@inspiration> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On Sat, 17 Feb 2007, Aryanil Mukherjee wrote: >> Within the digital, within the idealized digital, there is no in-between - >> either here/there, or 0/1, or whateverx/whatevery - the rest of the world >> is held at bay behind the walls of a potential well sufficient to permit >> communication in the small - i.e. to permit communication. One might say: >> >> within the liminal, the digital doesn't exist - >> the analogic exists only within the liminal. > > Well the way a realistic digital world works, seems to prove your > corollary conversely. "Digital Data",the entire amount of digital data > the world handles today, has place for every single type, you name it. > It just doesn't hold integers used for performing boolean math, it > houses reals, floats, doubles, unsigned numbers, complex numbers, > alphanumeric and beyond. > Yes, I agree of course - which is why I spoke about the ideal, not the real. When the real enters the picture, economics, protocols, tolerances, and the like are all critical. > The representation is, however, boolean like. So, it really hands out to > us a grain of rice that has the village's history imprinted in > miniature... (and this by the way, this is no metaphor, but hard > reality....I know several village artists in India who write folklores > in ink on a solitary grain of rice)....... > I'm not sure what you mean here. The representation isn't boolean-like; it _is_ Boolean, although the possibility of quantum computing in the future might cloud the issue (literally). On the other hand, writing systems are just that, systems, and are inherently digital in the broader sense - the sense of the repertoire/histrionic; they divvy up the real. The analogic is the liminal (above); it's the surplus, the unaccountable, uncontained; it's the 'idiocy of the real' (Rosset's phrase) and so forth. > So, can't it be read conversely ? Couldn't we see the "digital age" as > one where the pearly, empty symbol suddenly weighs like iron, where > the metaphor works as a singular closet used to store all the masks > a mardi gras needs? > The symbols have always weighted like iron; they're interpreted - look at the history of national symbols or the cross, etc. I'm not sure where the leap to metaphor comes into play, except that a metaphor is dependent upon that surplus in order to make any sense. Language is clearer than lang- uaging, parole; the dictionary reels words in, poetics spills them out. But I think the 'digital age' has many more implications than this - for example it is also this period in which the symbol becomes meaningless, in which one's world might float, as in SL, without the sense of repercus- sions in the real. If we think for example, even on the insipid level of underpaid labor producing these machines, keyboards, routers, and so forth - what do we do about it? We are somewhat safe in SL which is why the cases say of child pornography that do come up, rattle the bones. In other words, I think that first symbols always already were/are digital - the Unicode book is interesting in this regard; second, that their employment by organisms implies analogical surpluses; third, the digital as ideal/binary eliminates the liminal (which is found elsewhere, one might say the return of the repressed); and fourth, the background to all of this is the increased abjection of the planetary environment, cultural and natural, pollution and organism, if these distinctions still have any meaning at all. Alan > Aryanil > > ======================================================================= Work on YouTube, blog at http://nikuko.blogspot.com . Tel 718-813-3285. Webpage directory http://www.asondheim.org . Email: sondheim@panix.com. http://clc.as.wvu.edu:8080/clc/Members/sondheim for theory; also check WVU Zwiki, Google for recent. Write for info on books, cds, performance, dvds, etc. ============================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 14:19:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Haiku as a genre In-Reply-To: <45D6951E.5080506@myuw.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I am very happy about the connection also. Murat P.S. In his last book, What He Ought To Know, Ed Foster has a poem dedicated to me, entitled "The Lady Dressed in Lycra and What She Did To Him." At that time I did not know what lycra was, and Ed had to explain it to me (material for a bathing suit). Now I think I know enough, if not more. Ciao. On 2/17/07, Jason Quackenbush wrote: > > Thank you so much murat! i can't think of a better compliment than for > somebody to read something i've written and to get from it what i wanted to > put > in it. > > Murat Nemet-Nejat wrote: > > Michael, > > > > "a cotton lycra weave lifts/ from plants it catches" seems to the in > terms > > of spirit, rather than strict form, the closest to Haiku. It is about > > perception. A piece of cloth is caught/snagged (during walk?) by a plant > > (with thorns). The continuing motion pulls the plant for a moment, but > > then > > the plant is detached. It is this moment between catching and detaching > > (the > > puill of motion and counter pull of the static) which the poem catches, > > which is wonderful, and it seems to me exactly in the spirit of haiku. > > > > The chairs, in half > > beings buried in > > snow, > > are > > pigeons > > > > in the park. > > > > > > I am enjoying your posts. > > > > Ciao, > > > > Murat > > > > On 2/16/07, Michael Dylan Welch wrote: > > > >> > >> I suppose it's possible, if one thinks of haiku as a "genre" of poetry, > >> rather than merely a form, that pseudo-haiku, zappai, "haiku-like," and > >> other variants could be part of the "haiku" genre. There's certainly an > >> influence and connection. For years I used to think that haiku was > merely > >> anything I wrote in a 5-7-5-syllable pattern. But when I read the > second > >> edition of Cor van den Heuvel's *The Haiku Anthology* (1986), where 85+ > >> percent of the poems are not 5-7-5, it confronted me with what makes > them > >> haiku, because, for most of them, it certainly wasn't 5-7-5 (and those > >> that > >> were 5-7-5 were generally much older; the third edition of his book > >> has much > >> fewer 5-7-5 poems). So what happened for me, on reading Cor's book, was > a > >> dramatic shift -- from focusing on form to focusing on content. This > >> was an > >> epiphany for me, just as thinking of haiku as a genre rather than a > form > >> seems to be an epiphany for you, Jason. My epiphany made a world of > >> difference to me, and subsequently my > >> own haiku dramatically improved in quality (and so, too, I think, did > my > >> other poetry, because I began writing from a more internal than > external > >> place, if that makes sense, a place of trying to say something from > >> myself > >> rather than letting form say something for me). > >> > >> What this may mean for others who write haiku (or dabble in it) could > be > >> similar. Over and over I have seen beginner haiku where the poet's > >> focus is > >> predominantly on form, with minimal thought being given to content, or > to > >> the other techniques that literary haiku tends to require (kigo, > >> kireji, and > >> so on). Or in some cases (such as most haiku by Sonia Sanchez), there's > a > >> co-opting of the form (and I do mean just the perceived "form") for > >> personal > >> purposes, in her case to project vernacular voice (which she does > >> well, but > >> it still has relatively little to do with haiku). A similar trick is > >> done by > >> Paul Muldoon in his haiku -- a co-opting of the form for his own > >> needs. And > >> by co-opting primarily just the form (and again, not necessarily the > >> right > >> form in English, at that), such poems tend to ignore the larger > >> requirements > >> of the genre. A shift to think of haiku as a genre greatly broadens > >> not only > >> what's possible within the genre, but also what is necessary. > >> > >> So, are the following poems haiku? Some comments below. Obviously, > these > >> are personal and off-the-cuff reactions, and someone else might point > out > >> additional virtues or weaknesses (indeed, such is the nature of very > >> short > >> poetry that interpretation typically becames more personal as the > >> poems get > >> shorter). > >> > >> rain on > >> march flush > >> on the student body > >> > >> I don't get it. I have trouble parsing the syntax here, so to me I > don't > >> get it at all, and this has nothing to do with whether it's a haiku or > >> not. > >> What's a "march flush"? I could possibly see the flush of cold on the > >> cheeks > >> of people if it's cold, but to say the entire student body is much too > >> diffuse. But how this connects with the poem as a whole is confusing > >> to me, > >> at least syntactically. Is "rain on" a declaration, like "party on!," > or > >> should I expect it to be followed by a noun or noun phrase, as in, the > >> rain > >> is falling on something? If the former, it seems an odd declaration. > >> If the > >> latter, then neither "march" nor "flush" follow > >> logically/gramatically, so > >> I'm confused. Nor does the middle line even interrupt the first and > >> second > >> line, which is apparent from the use of "on" again in the third line. > >> So I'm > >> merely baffled here, even while I'm stretching to try to get something. > >> Haiku tend to rely on concrete images, so the rain and the student body > >> (though rather genera > >> l) are the best examples of that here. The best haiku also tend to > >> rely on > >> believable (authentic?) personal experience, so the oddities of syntax > >> here > >> take it away from my experience, or even an experience I could > >> imagine. In > >> fact, to some degree, it defies experience entirely, as if trying to do > >> something else, yet what that might be still eludes me, and if it > eludes > >> readers that much, it's probably too intellectual or imaginative a > >> construct > >> to have the immediacy of the best haiku. If poetry is meant to > >> communicate > >> something (whether facts or feeling or something else), perhaps this > poem > >> doesn't work, because I'm left more confused (for no apparent reason) > >> than > >> with any feeling of understanding. > >> > >> warm santa > >> ana crumples silver > >> paper > >> > >> I would take "Ana" to be the name of a little girl, and she's crushing > >> silver paper, though we don't know why. This is juxtaposed with "warm > >> santa," so the leap between these two elements is something in common > >> with > >> haiku. But why is the Santa warm? I don't get that -- and it's both > >> unresolved and probably unresolvable. Sure, the mention of Santa and > and > >> silver paper suggests Christmas, but so what? This fulfills a seasonal > >> expectation for haiku, but that in itself is not enough, even for the > >> best > >> haiku. There is often something connected TO a season that carries > >> additional meaning in some way, rather than merely giving you a sense > >> of the > >> season. But what's the overall message or feeling here? I feel a bit > too > >> confused by it to know, or to feel enough from it. I think of the > >> bilingual > >> haiku journal Ginyu, in Japan, edited by Ban'ya Natsuishi, that might > be > >> attracted to this poem for its avant-garde or slightly tantalizing > >> (unresolved) psychological effect (I mean "avant-garde > >> " in terms of haiku, of which Natsuishi is a leading proponent). But I > >> would still bet that most haiku readers would be puzzled by it, in an > >> unresovable way, nor would they find any meta-resolution in realizing > >> that > >> it's unresolvable, because even *that* effect is achieved with more > >> control > >> than I see in these words. It seems too confusing in its whole effect, > >> even > >> while I like the image of a girl crumpling silver paper. I can suspend > my > >> disbelief on reading about a girl crumpling silver paper, but I have > >> trouble > >> suspending disbelief when offered the incomplete image of whatever a > >> "warm > >> santa" is. (Also not keen on the word "paper" being a line by itself.) > Is > >> this a haiku? I think it comes closer than any of the other pieces > >> offered > >> here. On the other hand, folks like Hiroaki Sato have said that haiku > is > >> whatever a person wants to call a haiku. That's a bit too liberal for > >> me, or > >> a way of dodging any discussion of the matter, for clearly even he > >> himself > >> has a notion that make > >> s a haiku different from, say, a novel. > >> > >> a cotton lycra weave lifts > >> from plants it catches > >> > >> I don't quite get this, either, whether haiku or not. I don't quite > >> understand what is happening, or why it is happening. Why would a > >> weave of > >> something "catch" plants? And why plants? And why is it important to > say > >> that the weave is made of cotton lycra? And why would that weave then > >> "lift" > >> from the plants it catches? And if it caught the plants, wouldn't it > take > >> the plants with it if it lifts, and thus not lift *from* the plants? > >> How can > >> it lift from *and* catch the plants? And what on earth for? I don't > mind > >> something being illogical, to some degree, but I do want there still > >> to be a > >> discernable reason for the illogic, and that's missing here, at least > for > >> me. Haiku is oftentimes considered an unfinished poem, but this poem > >> is TOO > >> incomplete, and a good haiku provides just a little bit more > information > >> than this. More importantly, I don't understand what intuition or > feeling > >> I'm supposed to get from this. As a result, I feel detached from it > >> rather > >> than engaged by it, and > >> engagement is a key thing that helps distinguish a haiku, or at least > its > >> effect. And of course, something may "be" a haiku, but it's a separate > >> matter as to whether it's a weak or strong haiku. > >> > >> green > >> colors > >> wax > >> > >> Again, what am I supposed to feel here? There's also no clarity of > >> location or context. It's too ambiguous or general for me to know what > >> to do > >> with it. I have no problem with the minimalism, though, and I > immediately > >> think of a prize-winning minimalist haiku by the late Jerry Kilbride: > >> > >> mime > >> lifting > >> fog > >> > >> Here, by the use of the word "fog," we know we are outside, and so it's > >> easy to see a mime in a city or park setting, like any other street > >> performer. So, despite the minimalism, there's enough information here > to > >> ground the poem in common personal experience, and it's not obscure or > >> excessively ambiguous. And what an interesting image to see the mime > >> in the > >> fog. White-faced and white-gloved, too! And then to see the mime's > >> actions: > >> Instead of being trapped in an invisible box or miming some other > >> scenario, > >> we see him physically lifting the fog, or trying to. To some, this > >> poem is > >> probably on the fringe of haiku. However, I would argue that it's > >> closer to > >> traditional haiku than they might think. Fog is a season word, for > >> example > >> (at least I'm pretty sure it is, without looking it up in a saijiki -- > >> season-word almanac). And the poem has a curious property of being > >> readable > >> in two ways, employing what is called a kakekatoba in Japanese, or a > >> pivot > >> word (somewhat like the zeugm > >> a in Western literature). One can read this as mime (period), and then > >> you > >> see "lifting fog" (where it's lifting by itself, perhaps to reveal that > >> there's a mime there). Or it can be read as the mime lifting the fog, > >> in the > >> inimitable way of mimes everywhere. Is the mime lifting the fog, or is > >> the > >> fog lifting by itself in the presence of a mime? It's this oscillation > >> between two possible readings or meanings that shows the poem to be > >> akin to > >> haiku, at least for me. And of course the immediate objective imagery > is > >> almost so fundamental as to be easy not to mention, yet that too is > >> important. Kilbride's poem, in contrast to "green / colors / wax," > shows > >> what can be done with minimalism under the haiku rubric. Here, too, is > a > >> similarly minimalist poem of mine, that I think functions in ways > >> similar to > >> Kilbride's poem > >> > >> night > >> falling > >> snow > >> > >> I believe this offering can be read in several different ways, > depending > >> whether you put a pause or break after the first or the second line, > >> or have > >> no break and read it all of a piece, or perhaps even have two breaks. > All > >> variations are possible. Will such poems change the world? No, of > course > >> not. But by their sharp focus, I believe poems like this -- indeed, > >> all the > >> best haiku -- can make you appreciate the world around you. Rachel > Carson > >> has written about the value of noticing nature, to have a sense of > >> wonder. > >> Haiku, perhaps more than any other poem, embodies this sense of > >> wonder, and > >> seeks to share it from writer to reader. > >> > >> Michael > >> > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 21:51:04 -0800 > >> From: Jason Quackenbush > >> Subject: Re: Haiku dumbness / snobbishness > >> > >> hrm, i want to understand. you're getting close to me getting it with > >> your > >> talk > >> of genre. but still you're a little too vague for me. genre to me > >> implies that some things can be more haiku like, that there are some > >> things that > >> might be borderline cases of haiku, and THAT strikes me as very > >> interesting. > >> > >> So I'm curious, are any of these four things haiku? > >> > >> rain on > >> march flush > >> on the student body > >> > >> warm santa > >> ana crumples silver > >> paper > >> > >> a cotton lycra weave lifts > >> from plants it catches > >> > >> green > >> colors > >> wax > >> > >> i'd like to know what you would consider a fringe case, because such > >> things > >> really interest me and thinking of haiku as genre rather than form > feels > >> a bit epiphanic. so thanks. > >> > >> oh, and as for the point about making a concerted effort to praise > haiku > >> rather > >> than say what it isn't, i was referring more to comments in these > >> threads. I'm sure there are all manner of excellent books, i just > thought > >> that > >> the tone of the conversation on the poetics list seemed overly focussed > >> on why some things aren't haiku rather than why other things are. > >> > ________________________________________________________________________ > >> Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and > >> security > >> tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the > >> web, > >> free AOL Mail and more. > >> > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 14:23:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barrett Watten Subject: Publication of THE GRAND PIANO, PART 2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Publication announcement: THE GRAND PIANO, PART 2 An Experiment in Collective Autobiography, San Francisco, 1975-1980, by=20 Barrett Watten, Ted Pearson, Rae Armantrout, Steve Benson, Kit Robinson,=20 Tom Mandel, Ron Silliman, Carla Harryman, Lyn Hejinian, and Bob Perelman http://www.english.wayne.edu/fac%5Fpages/ewatten/books/cover%20gp2.html "Since the 1970s no literary group has made a more articulate contribution= =20 to thinking and practicing its groupness than the Language writers.=20 Rejecting the vertical organization of the Poundian or Bretonian=20 circle=AD-with its singular genius issuing directives from its center-=ADthe= y=20 instead developed a horizontal structure in which new terms, tones, and=20 intertexts (and new versions of the group's history itself) can emerge=20 from, and be engaged by, any member." --Lytle Shaw THE GRAND PIANO is an on-going experiment in collective autobiography by=20 ten writers identified with Language Poetry in San Francisco. It takes its= =20 name from a coffeehouse at 1607 Haight Street, where from 1976-79 the=20 authors took part in a reading and performance series. The writing project= =20 was undertaken as an online collaboration, first via an interactive web=20 site and later through a listserv. When completed, THE GRAND PIANO will=20 comprise ten parts, in each of which the ten authors will appear in a=20 difference sequence. Parts 1 and 2 are $12.95 each or $20.00 for both. Serial publication began= =20 in November 2006; subsequent volumes to appear at three-month intervals.=20 Subscription to the entire series of ten volumes is now available for $90=20 directly from Lyn Hejinian, 2639 Russell Street, Berkeley, CA 94705. For an= =20 order form: http://www.english.wayne.edu/fac%5Fpages/ewatten/pdfs/gp2order.pdf (color) http://www.english.wayne.edu/fac%5Fpages/ewatten/pdfs/gp2orderbw.pdf (black= =20 and white) Designed and published by Barrett Watten, Mode A/This Press (Detroit), 6885= =20 Cathedral Drive, Bloomfield Twp., MI 48301. Distributed (individual orders= =20 and trade) by Small Press Distribution, Inc., 1341 Seventh Street,=20 Berkeley, CA 94710-1408. ISBN 978-0-9790198-0-7 (part 1, 80 pp.),=20 978-0-9790198-1-4 (part 2, 96 pp.), wrappers. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 15:39:15 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: Fwd: POETRY SUPER HIGHWAY less than 2 weeks left to join the Great Poetry Exchange In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I've posted this here in years past... *There are less then 2 weeks* left to join in the *6th Annual Great Poetry Exchange! * Pledge to send your book to another randomly selected poet, and you will in turn receive a book from another participant. *81 poets* so far have signed on to send a book to someone, get a book from someone else. See the entire list of books pledged so far by clicking on "Great Poetry Exchange" (as well as the participation guidelines) from the main PSH menu! http://www.poetrysuperhighway.com -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 15:14:21 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christine Hamm Subject: Reviews of my work In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I've had an embarrassment of riches this week: Review of The Transparent Dinner on Horseless Press: here. And a rather visceral review of The Animal Husband: here. Christine Hamm __________________ www.christinehamm.org ____________________________________________________________________________________ TV dinner still cooling? Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV. http://tv.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 16:31:09 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amy king Subject: MIPO -- Friday, Feb. 23rd @ 7 P.M. In-Reply-To: <330306.2068.qm@web50302.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MiPOesias presents ~~~ JENNIFER L. KNOX, SINA QUEYRAS, and ROBERT BOHM ~~~ Stain Bar, Brooklyn, NYC February 23, 2007 @ 7 P.M. ~~~~~~~~~ JENNIFER L. KNOX was born and raised in Lancaster, California, where absolutely anything can be made into a bong. Her work is featured in Best American Poetry 2006, and her book of poems, A Gringo Like Me, is available from Softskull Press. http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/knox_jennifer.htm SINA QUEYRAS'most recent collection of poetry, Lemon Hound, was published by Coach House Books in 2006. Last year she edited Open Field: 30 Contemporary Canadian Poets. She is contributing editor to Drunken Boat and co-curator of Belladonna reading series. This year she is visiting professor at Haverford College. Next year she is writer-in-residence at the University of Calgary. She wears a cape whenever possible and keeps a blog: http://lemonhound.blogspot.com. http://www.mipoesias.com/Poetry/queyras_sina.html ROBERT BOHM is a poet and culture writer. He was born in Queens, NY. His new chapbook, Uz Um War Moan Ode, will be published in 2006 by Pudding House Press. His other credits include two books, another chapbook and work published in a variety of print and online publications. http://www.mipoesias.com/September2003/bohm.htm ~~~~~~~~ STAIN BAR 766 Grand Street Brooklyn, NY 11211 (L train to Grand Street Stop, walk 1 block west) 718/387-7840 ~~~~~~~~ Hope you’ll stop by! http://miporeadingseries2007.blogspot.com/ ~~~~~~~~ --------------------------------- Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 18:09:12 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: Re: the politics of the pocket & the watch Comments: To: Alan Sondheim MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gloria, thanks for the heads-up on Kinkaid's disquisition in the context of British attitudes toward timing "time" and about the watch on tourists in Antigua. Stephen and Mark, too, thx also for the historical stuff re pockets and pocketbooks and the anecdotal stuff about refusing the wristwatch in the '60s. Yr comment, Mark, about choosing the cellphone as chronometer is consonant with this: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17189064/from/ET/ Have been thinking about Jacques Ellul. As a tool in the Taylorist project, in colonialism, in the disenchantment of the workplace, the watch has a distinct history. My sense, however, is that the clock, the watch, began as a (in the parlance of Jacques Ellul) magical technology. Its initial purpose was not to call us to work or coordinate artillery attacks but to represent the heavens, our time-place in them, under them. As Ellul warns, tho: wherever there is a spiritual technique, there is the "technique of Homo faber," and the latter always wins out-- because the latter is about progress and the former concerns "endless beginnings." I've been musing about Nietzsche's insistence on "untimeliness," which is something I'm down with. There is a curious way in which the mechanical analog watch (dependent on winding, either by hand or rotor that turns iwth the movement of the wearer's body) is for me precisely about untimeliness and Ellul's conception of spiritual technique as beginningbeginningbeginning without ending. There is a way, in other words, where the resistance to the standardization of time falls upon wristwatches and pocketwatches in opposition to church bells, the square's clocktower, and, now, the rise of U.S. Govt Official Atomic Time via the cellphone. The analog watch retains somehow the grosser features of its birth as a small celestial theater, arising from the astrolabe. When I realized that the sweep direction of a clock's hands basically follows, arising from, the sweep of a shadow on a sundial, my world changed in this little but big way. Too (and finally) I feel Alan's worry that the digital clock is left out of this. I like the analog's closeness to the astrolabe, so just can't feel,Alan, that deep tone of appreciation for a digital watch (tho i recall fondly my old Casio from the early geek highschooly days. You might love these links, Alan: http://www.network54.com/Forum/78440/message/1170619630/ http://www.larrybiggs.net/scwf/index.php?mod=103&action=0&id=1170546372 - Gabe -- __________________________________ http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com ---------------------------------- Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, Illinois 61790 309.438.5284 (office) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 07:32:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Recent Nomadics Posts Comments: cc: Britis-Irish List , Poetryetc provides a venue for a dialogue relating to poetry and poetics Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Check out these latest posts on Nomadics (http://pjoris.blogspot.com): "The Trostkyists of Islam" Hannah Weiner=92s Open House Selling Out to Fashion Emmett Williams, 1925-2007 Peyrafitte & Joris at the Linda Keep Earth cool with Moon dust Ilya Kormiltsev (1959-2007) Enjoy. & if I may be so bold as to suggest that comments are welcome =97 especially in the comments' boxes, rather than just backchannel to me =97 that way the public sphere is kept in play. Thanks, Pierre =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism,since it is the merger of state and corporate power." =97 Benito Mussolini =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D Pierre Joris 244 Elm Street Albany NY 12202 h: 518 426 0433 c: 518 225 7123 o: 518 442 40 71 Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 email: joris@albany.edu http://pierrejoris.com Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 09:14:12 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Coffey Subject: another Susan Howe/David Grubbs cd collaboration! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I still haven't gotten my head around the last one! Here's some info on it, from the Forced Exposure new releases weekly email: BLUE 017CD GRUBBS/SUSAN HOWE, DAVID: Souls of the Labadie Tract CD (BLUE 017CD) 13.50 "Souls of the Labadie Tract is the second collaboration between musician David Grubbs and poet Susan Howe. Susan Howe's and David Grubbs' collaboration is largely without precedent. (Cage and Tudor? Robert Creeley and Steve Lacy?) Souls of the Labadie Tract takes as its starting point a substantial new poem by Howe that will appear in a collection bearing the same title, to be published in 2007 by New Directions. The Labadists were a Utopian Quietest sect that moved from the Netherlands to Cecil County, Maryland in 1684. The community dissolved in 1722. All that was to remain of it was the 'labadie poplar.' Thiefth, beginning with its title, is a glittering assemblage of shards. By contrast, Souls of the Labadie Tract sustains a sound world of buzzing reeds and electronics. After a prose introduction, individual poems occur as regularly as grave markers. Howe's reading is a marvel of hushed intensity. Grubbs' chosen instruments for this piece include two species of khaen, Laotian free-reed mouth organs that at signal moments fluoresce into a full ensemble. A distant VCS3 synthesizer slowly moves to the foreground with what becomes a full-circuited roar. -- http://hyperhypo.org/blog http://www.pftborder.blogspot.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 10:58:13 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Bon Voy age Emmett! Comments: To: Theory and Writing , spidertangle@yahoogroups.com Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Bon Voy age Emmett! after emmett http://joglars.org/afteremmett/bonvoyage.html a dispersion of ninetiles ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 12:23:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: old text illustrated by its future anterior MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed ( apropos Gudding + SL repertoire discuss ) SL Alan Dojoji old text illustrated by its future anterior _________________________________________________________________________ trams:nalA:refinneJ:6:09711:esruoc fo:nalA:trams:ylgu:esnetni:nwod Jennifer writes this; she adds nothing to my security. She is thinking about space and about tragedy. She decides that length has no absolute meaning in kyberspace. That leaves topology. She decides there are bendings and gatherings and loosenings and disappearances but pretty much multiply-connected graphs. She says people don't realize how _exact_ everything is here, because their emotions are in turmoil. She says the _exactness_ is critical, turning everyday life inside-out or upside-down. Tragedy is always a flaw that floods and flows, and there's usually a deed, she reassured herself. She'd read Aristotle and beyond. She was writing this in an editor, knowing the system clock was just a keystroke or two away. That the time would always be there for her. Then there were the programs, email, voices coming in out of the dark. She felt like a spy who came in from the cold, because the cold was exact. She looked at her hand for a long time. She looked again and again. tnaillirb:refinneJ:nalA:1:54921:esruoc fo:refinneJ:krad:esnetni:tnaillirb http://www.asondheim.org/homing.mov _________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 12:55:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ruth Lepson Subject: FW: haha (in norwegian) In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit ------ Forwarded Message From: Lucy Clark Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 14:38:41 -0500 To: Ruth Lepson Subject: haha (in norwegian) >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRjVeRbhtRU ------ End of Forwarded Message ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 10:28:17 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amy king Subject: O VALENTINE, O VIOLENCE -- NEW WORK UP In-Reply-To: <43318.79147.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MiPOesias presents MARTHE REED – “ a bride/a dark-eyed” http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/reed_marthe.htm TAO LIN – “alone in this room, i’m hungry, i miss you” http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/lin_tao.htm CHRIS CRITTENDEN – “egg-laden heart,/each pump breaks a shell” http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/crittenden_chris.htm CA CONRAD – “We kissed my/singing radio like/ this and this” http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/conrad_ca.htm ERIN BERTRAM – “I have a tendency to fall in love with my friends.” http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/bertram_erin.htm BLAKE BUTLER – “1. In the apartment next door, they’re having sex.” http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/butler_blake.htm ANDREW DEMCAK – “Our sperm medicinally coffined.” http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/demcak_andrew.htm ERIK SWEET – “A rewinding of love greatly misappropriated” http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/sweet_erik.htm TODD BURRITT – “The bent staples mean somebody was frustrated.” http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/burritt_todd.htm MICHAEL PARKER REVIEWS “WANTON TEXTILES” http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/parker_michael_wantontextitles.htm ELISA GABBERT & KATHLEEN ROONEY – “I have a bruise on my thigh that looks like a galaxy” http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/gabbert_rooney.htm ALEXANDER DICKOW – “Puppydog bees/and birds with trees” http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/dickow_alexander.htm GINA ABELKOP – “In her sharp bob she/apes providence, think” http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/abelkop_gina.htm JOHN COTTER & SHAFER HALL – “Palomino, Palomino, never give your goodies up” http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/cotter_hall.htm TARASHEA NESBIT – “Moth orchids. Desire.” http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/nesbit_tarashea.htm ~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/ http://www.mipoesias.com http://miporeadingseries2007.blogspot.com/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~ --------------------------------- Never miss an email again! Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. Check it out. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 11:50:59 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Jean-Pierre Balpe on "Hyperfiction" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://hyperfiction.blogs.liberation.fr is a blog by Jean-Pierre Balpe on "Hyperfiction". ja http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 14:10:00 -0600 Reply-To: dgodston@sbcglobal.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Godston Subject: $200 million: The Poetry Foundation in The New Yorker In-Reply-To: <921022.71109.qm@web32108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit THE MONEYED MUSE What can two hundred million dollars do for poetry? by DANA GOODYEAR Issue of 2007-02-19 Posted 2007-02-12 Michael Lewis, a journalist and the author of “Liar’s Poker” and “Moneyball,” appeared in the magazine Poetry for the first time in the summer of 2005, with a satirical piece called “How to Make a Killing from Poetry: A Six Point Plan of Attack.” It offered its advice in bullet-point businessese: “1) Think Positive. Nobody likes a whiner. And poets always seem to be harping on the negative. . . . 2) Take Your New Positive Attitude and Direct It Towards the Paying Customer. The customer is your friend. Your typical poem really doesn’t seem to pay much attention to the living retail customer. . . . 3) Think About Your Core Message. Your average reader might like a bit of fancy writing, but at the end of the day he will always ask himself: what’s my takeaway?” So it was slightly odd, and unintentionally comical, when, last September, Poetry published a manifesto, “American Poetry in the New Century,” recapitulating Lewis’s lampoon as a serious position. The author was John Barr, a former Wall Street executive and the president of the Poetry Foundation, an entity created after the Indianapolis heiress Ruth Lilly gave some two hundred million dollars to Poetry, in 2002. The foundation, which “exists to discover and celebrate the best poetry and to place it before the largest possible audience,” also publishes the magazine. In the essay, Barr declared, “American poetry is ready for something new because our poets have been writing in the same way for a long time now. There is fatigue, something stagnant about the poetry being written today.” Poetry, largely absent from public life—from classrooms, bookstores, newspapers, mainstream media—“has a morale problem,” he said; it is in “a bad mood.” Poems are written only with other poets in mind, and therefore do not sell. (Two thousand copies is the industry standard.) He argued that the effect of M.F.A. programs, increasingly prevalent since the nineteen-seventies, has been “to increase the abundance of poetry, but to limit its variety. The result is a poetry that is neither robust, resonant, nor—and I stress this quality—entertaining.” In a section titled “Live Broadly, Write Boldly,” he urged poets to do as Hemingway did, and seek experience outside the academy—take a safari, go marlin fishing, run with the bulls. “The human mind is a marketplace, especially when it comes to selecting one’s entertainment,” he wrote. “If you look at drama in Shakespeare’s day, or the novel in the last century, or the movie today, it suggests that an art enters its golden age when it is addressed to and energized by the general audiences of its time.” Barr grew up outside Chicago and says that, as an outgoing Midwesterner, he “survived” Harvard, which he attended on a Navy scholarship. He is sixty-four, small and bluff, with a warm, chuckling affect. In 1985, he started an energy-marketing company now called Dynegy, and, after retiring from a managing directorship at Morgan Stanley, co-founded an investment-banking boutique, Barr Devlin; he is also the author of six books of poems, several of them published in limited editions by a letterpress printer. He commutes between Chicago, where he and his wife, Penny, live in a hotel condominium on Michigan Avenue with a Shih Tzu and a miniature Yorkie, and three other homes, including a twenty-five-acre estate in Greenwich, Connecticut, which serves as a weekend place. (The Barrs have three grown children.) He is a big-game hunter—slightly deaf in his right ear—and a sailor, with a tan in all seasons. For years, he avoided talking about his poetry with business colleagues. “I was afraid that they thought of poets as hippies, and might have viewed it slightly askance,” he says. Barr’s latest book, “Grace: An Epic Poem,” is told in an invented Caribbean dialect inspired by family sailing trips around the Windwards and the British Virgin Islands. It is anything but shy. (The narrator, a gardener, describes seeing the mistress of the house caught by her husband in flagrante delicto—“De gentleman, he produce his próduce / like a corporate salami, and she hers, / like a surgery scar still angry red wid healing. / Den he settle his equipment in de lady’s outback / an’ he spud de well”—a predicament that leads to murder and nearly a hundred and fifty pages of poem.) Barr’s call for something new was, in a narrow sense, consistent with the magazine’s radical origins. Harriet Monroe, who founded Poetry in Chicago in 1912, reflected in a memoir that at the turn of the century “the well of American poetry seemed to be thinning out and drying up, and the worst of it was that nobody seemed to care. It was this indifference that I started out to combat, this dry conservatism that I wished to refresh with living waters from a new spring.” But, whereas Barr aspires to reunite poetry with the current of popular entertainment, Monroe, herself a frustrated poet, was motivated by distaste for the mainstream. The circular she sent to poets offered “First, a chance to be heard in their own place, without the limitations imposed by the popular magazine. In other words, while the ordinary magazines must minister to a large public little interested in poetry, this magazine will appeal to, and it may be hoped, will develop, a public primarily interested in poetry as an art, as the highest, most complete expression of truth and beauty.” The earliest issues contained poems by Ezra Pound (living in London and from the start the magazine’s foreign correspondent), as well as H. D. and Wallace Stevens, both unknowns. In 1915, Monroe published a poem by T. S. Eliot, then in his mid-twenties: “The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock.” These poets, she wrote, “swept away Victorian excesses and weaknesses—all the overemphasis on trite sentiment with its repetitions and clichés, and on archaic formalities of diction and technique.” East Coast newspapers made fun of the idea of “Poetry in Porkopolis,” but nevertheless Poetry became an emblem of high modernism, and Monroe its chief propagandist. “The histories of modern poetry in America and of Poetry in America are almost interchangeable, certainly inseparable,” the poet A. R. Ammons once said. (Among the magazine’s discoveries were Gwendolyn Brooks, James Merrill, and John Ashbery.) Barr understandably relishes this glamorous past, but he is openly hostile to its legacy in poetry today. “For all its schools and experiments, contemporary poetry is still written in the rain shadow thrown by Modernism,” he wrote. “It is the engine that drives what is written today. And it is a tired engine.” Barr envisions a poetry more engaged, public-minded, and audience-beloved than modernism—intellectual, personal, and sometimes even willfully obscure—could ever be. “American poetry has yet to produce its Mark Twain,” he wrote. As an incentive, he has established a new foundation prize, with a twenty-five-thousand-dollar purse: the Mark Twain Award for humor. The inaugural winner was Billy Collins, an affable, self-deprecating former Poet Laureate who has demonstrated a remarkable ability to connect with an audience (according to his publisher, he has sold more than five hundred thousand books), and who in many ways embodies Barr’s ideal. The most recent photograph I have seen of Ruth Lilly shows an elderly woman with pretty, heavy-lidded blue eyes, a blond bouffant, and red lipstick, wearing big pearl earrings and a pink suit with zebra trim, and sitting before a red poinsettia. The picture is reproduced in “A Little Book: The Poems and Selected Writings of Ruth Lilly,” a gray cloth hardcover with gold embossed lettering, edited by Penny Barr and privately printed by the Poetry Foundation. It was presented to Mrs. Lilly in August, 2005, on her ninetieth birthday. The poems are formal, sighing, adorned with exclamation points, and often poignant in their wish for simple things (a little cottage, an erstwhile companion). Some appear under the pseudonym Joan March; others, including one published in the Times in the late nineteen-thirties, are signed “R. Lyly.” Ruth, the last surviving great-grandchild of Colonel Eli Lilly, who started the pharmaceutical company, and one of the two children of J. K. Lilly, Jr., and Ruth Brinkmeyer Lilly, was a delicate girl born into a famous family in a small town. According to the Indianapolis Star, depression, which ran in the family, caused her to miss part of high school. Already sheltered—she was driven around by armed Pinkerton guards, who changed their routes from day to day—she receded further after the Lindbergh kidnapping and a threat against her cousin. When Ruth was seventeen, the family moved into Oldfields, a twenty-two-room French-château-style mansion, where the meals were nonetheless, in the words of one visitor, “Hoosier homebody”: French onion soup, lamb chops, strawberries and cream. Her bedroom overlooked a ravine designed by the Olmsted brothers’s firm. Ruth’s father, a major collector of rare books, added a library, and in 1954 founded the Lilly Library, at Indiana University, when he donated his twenty thousand volumes and seventeen thousand manuscripts. (He also collected toy soldiers, wooden ships, and stamps, and had a six-thousand-piece gold-coin collection, which now belongs to the Smithsonian.) According to the audio tour at Oldfields, which Ruth and her brother, Joe, gave to the Indianapolis Museum of Art, the thick curtains in the loggia were often drawn, for privacy. At twenty-five, Ruth married Guernsey van Riper, Jr., who became an editor at Bobbs-Merrill, the publishing house, and the author of several biographies for children (Babe Ruth, Knute Rockne), though they had none. Ruth spent the forty years they were together in and out of hospitals, undergoing psychiatric treatment. She is so reclusive that sightings have occasioned newspaper stories. One tale, possibly apocryphal, holds that department-store owners in Indianapolis dressed the mannequins in outfits they thought she would like, and left the display lights on, so that Ruth, driven past the windows by her chauffeur late at night, could pick out new clothes. For many years, she was afraid to fly, and didn’t leave the country until after she was eighty. An article in the Star credits Prozac, a Lilly drug, with improving her condition. She now travels once or twice a year, with an entourage of several dozen doctors, nurses, relatives, attendants, and, sometimes, a chef. Her house, Twin Oaks, which belonged to her father, is in a prosperous neighborhood, a few miles from Oldfields. It is protected by a screen of tall pine trees and a thread of wire fence. Through the bare woods, you can glimpse a whitewashed brick house with blue shutters, and an attending squad car. In the absence of real information about Lilly’s motivation for giving such a fortune to Poetry, a myth took hold. When it came out that Lilly, as Mrs. Guernsey van Riper, Jr., had submitted poems to Poetry in the seventies and that the poems had been turned down with a personal note, that colorful detail became a substitute for narrative logic. In the exuberant newspaper stories at the time, Lilly emerged as an almost fantastical benefactor—a Greek deity, disguised as a common traveller, who rewards kindness with riches and immortality. What did not emerge was that Lilly may not have intended to be so generous. In 1981, Ruth and Guernsey were divorced and her brother, Joe, placed her under the supervision of the court, which named Merchants National Bank, later acquired by National City, as the conservator of her estate. At that point, the estate was worth about fifty million dollars—almost entirely in the form of Lilly stock—and her will stipulated that, after providing for her six nieces and nephews, the money would be divided among Poetry, a Washington-based arts-education and lobbying group that is now called Americans for the Arts, and the Lilly Endowment, a foundation whose resources are mostly directed toward Indianapolis. In the next twenty years, Lilly stock did well, and Mrs. Lilly’s estate grew to be worth roughly a billion dollars. In the late nineties, her lawyer drafted a series of wills, codicils, and testamentary documents that shifted the bulk of the estate to a new entity, over which the lawyer, along with Lilly’s nieces and nephews, would preside, to benefit Indianapolis in her name. Lilly’s health was precarious, and the bank, when it learned of the alterations, worried that if she died the “old charities,” as they came to be called, might sue. The bank, with permission from the court, drew up a plan restoring the money to the old charities, only now the pot was much richer. Poetry learned of its stake in the fall of 2001, but waited a year before announcing the gift. In the meantime, the old board of Poetry—Chicago arts patrons, mostly, whose role was fund-raising—began to be reconfigured into the Poetry Foundation. During that year, Lilly stock dropped from around seventy-five dollars a share to as low as forty-eight—significantly reducing the value of the Poetry Foundation’s portion—and the foundation, along with Americans for the Arts, sued the bank for failing to diversify the holdings in spite of what it says was an obligation to do so. In a summary judgment, the court ruled against the foundation; this past October, an appeals court, after warning the charities, “If you have a gift horse, keep your mouth shut,” upheld that judgment; and in December the foundation requested an appeal with the Indiana Supreme Court. Joseph Parisi, who had been the magazine’s editor for twenty years at the time of the gift, volunteered to take charge of the foundation and named Christian Wiman, a young poet and critic, as his successor. (Parisi quit the foundation after only a few months.) The board used a headhunter to find John Barr, who was working for Société Générale, to whom he had sold Barr Devlin, as the head of its global power-utility business. Barr had been on the boards of the Poetry Society of America, Bennington College, and Yaddo, and had taught for three terms in the M.F.A. program at Sarah Lawrence. When he met with the board, he told them, quoting a Richard Wilbur poem, “If what you want is a ‘good, gray guardian of art,’ you’ve got the wrong person.” The job, he says, is the bully pulpit he’s been waiting for these many years. One morning in mid-November, in Chicago, Barr, wearing a windbreaker and loafers, stood on the pavement across the street from two small office buildings, just a few blocks from the Newberry Library, which, before the Lilly gift, gave Poetry an eight-hundred-and-fifty-square-foot space in its stacks building to use as an office. (For the time being, the magazine and the foundation share a large suite in a tower across from the Tribune.) The foundation is negotiating to buy the double lot, which is on the market for seven million dollars, and, if the deal goes through, will house a twenty-five-thousand-square-foot building that should be ready in several years. There will be room for a library, offices for the magazine and the foundation, and a lecture hall. (The foundation already has an excellent series; this fall, there were readings by Mark Strand, Robert Hass, and Gary Snyder, as well as a staged reading of Richard Wilbur’s verse translation of “Tartuffe.”) “The building won’t be palatial, but it will have an identity as a national home for poetry,” Barr said. It will also have space for the foundation’s new project: the Poetry Institute, a think tank modelled on the Aspen Institute, for researching issues in contemporary poetry and organizing symposia to disseminate the findings. Its first effort was a survey completed last spring by the National Opinion Research Center, at the University of Chicago, which cost seven hundred thousand dollars, and revealed, along with a great deal of other data, that ninety per cent of American readers value poetry. The Poetry Foundation functions as an operating foundation, spending most of its money on its own activities rather than on grants. As Ethel Kaplan, a lawyer at a wealth-management firm and the chair of the board, put it, “Nobody wanted to sit back and read grant proposals—especially from poets.” By January, the foundation had received eighty-eight million dollars. After all the money has been distributed, the foundation’s budget will be about ten million dollars a year. In an editorial in Poetry in 1922, Monroe bemoaned the quality of newspaper verse: “These syndicated rhymers, like the movie-producers, are learning that ‘it pays to be good,’ that one ‘gets by by giving the people the emotions of virtue, simplicity and goodness, with this program paying at the box-office.’ ” She wanted to create a place apart for poetry; the foundation wants to take the genre big—right back into the magazines and newspapers that, a century ago, rejected all but the softest pap. To this end, the foundation is offering its services as an external poetry editor. Over the past year, it has sent a dozen magazine editors mockups with poems superimposed on actual layouts from those magazines (a Basho haiku in a Good Housekeeping spread showing how to “pair old china with fresh blooms”; Lucille Clifton’s “Homage to My Hips” on a fitness page called “Love Your Curves”). To Details, the foundation suggested an essay by Jim Harrison: “If Jim Harrison, poet, novelist (Legends of the Fall) and walking vat of testosterone, needs a daily shot of poetry, it must not be for sissies. . . . A good hed for the piece might be ‘Don’t Be Afraid of Poetry.’ A better one might be ‘Read Poetry. Get Laid.’ ” Some poets work better for this purpose than others. “It’s just common sense that we would not take language poetry and put it in a mockup magazine for Better Homes & Gardens,” Barr said. “They’d say, ‘What the hell is this? My readers would never understand it.’ ” The foundation also pays for a syndicated newspaper column by Ted Kooser, the former Nebraska life-insurance executive who was Poet Laureate from 2004 to 2006. The column, which features poems on comforting American themes (neighbors, chores, raking), runs mostly in regional papers in the Midwest and the South. The annual budget for the foundation’s Web site, which débuted a year ago, is more than a million dollars. The site has newsy items, blogs, a poetry best-seller list, and an archive of poems from a wide range of poets, helpfully indexed by subject matter. It is a boon to poets—whose publishers get paid for the use of the work—and to best men. Emily Warn, the editor of the site, has published two collections of poems with Copper Canyon Press (a third is forthcoming) and used to work at Microsoft, where she helped launch early versions of Internet Explorer. “We exist at the intersection of the great poems in our archive and this very broad public,” she said. She would like the site to become the Billboard or the Entertainment Weekly of the poetry world, reflecting everything that’s happening without a dogmatic point of view. She consults both with academics (what are the best and most representative poems of Czeslaw Milosz?) and with those whose sensibilities are a bit more pop. The site’s associate editor, Emily White, lives in Seattle and for five years edited the alternative paper The Stranger. (Warn says that she never would have come up with the headline “Herbert Sucks. Donne Is a Pimp” if not for the influence of White.) Jeff Gordinier, an editor-at-large at Details who writes a column called “The Philistine” for the site, told me that he has suggested introducing more humor and irreverence—“charts and quizzes and time lines and very attitudinal columns and reaching out for a dash more celebrity presence.” In September, the foundation announced the latest of a group of prizes intended, Barr says, “to throw a spotlight of recognition on underilluminated corners of the poetry world,” and named Jack Prelutsky America’s first Children’s Poet Laureate. Prelutsky, who has published more than forty books of children’s poems, is, you might say, the ultimate example of a poet who keeps his audience in mind. “I Have a Pet Tomato,” from “It’s Raining Pigs and Noodles,” reads: I have a pet tomato, it doesn’t have a stem. My friends have pet asparagus— why can’t I be like them? The Children’s Laureate was Penny Barr’s idea. “I’m not a poet,” she told me. “I’m not versed in poetry, but I am versed in bringing up children. It’s a natural for me. The adult poets have never heard of Jack Prelutsky. The big secret is that these people are making a lot of money!” Prelutsky has donated to the foundation a collection of five thousand children’s books, which will be stored in the building. The cumulative effect, John Barr hopes, will be conspicuous.“You probably haven’t heard much humility out of me,” he said. “But many years from now, when people are looking back, my first hope would be that the course of the river of American poetry would have been altered by a few degrees—or maybe more—by the Poetry Foundation. If less than that happens, but there’s something discernible enough to be called the Chicago Movement, that wouldn’ t disappoint me, either. I don’t know what the Chicago Movement is. I have no idea. It’s not poets or a kind of poetry. But it implies a departure from the status quo today. If there’s an effect on the art form, I hope it would be a bigger audience and a poetry that is deriving energy from a general audience. You know that line of Ezra Pound’s about Walt Whitman, ‘Let there be commerce between us’? I hope there’s more commerce, in that sense, the poetic sense, between the mainstream general readers and contemporary poets.” This article continues at http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/070219fa_fact_goodyear ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 18:06:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Deborah Poe Subject: chinese new year (request for words on duilian) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i would love to hear more on antithetical couplets should you care to wax duilian... http://en.epochtimes.com/news/7-2-16/51783.html "May the shining stars bless our generations. May our great virtue always bring success." everyone, happy chinese new year. --d. poe (sorry for x-posting) -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Jim Andrews Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 2:51 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Jean-Pierre Balpe on "Hyperfiction" http://hyperfiction.blogs.liberation.fr is a blog by Jean-Pierre Balpe on "Hyperfiction". ja http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 09:48:11 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Glass Subject: Fwd: time4time : Jesse Glass MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Some very interesting things in a recent post on experiments in sound, abstraction and "universal language" in the '20s and '30s. Jess --- Original Message --- Date: /0/0 From: "ralph li" Subject: time4time : Jesse Glass ralph li hat Ihnen einen Link zu einem Blog gesendet: new blog, "post-modernism: collaging, fragmentation, and Oulipo-like processes along with a keen understanding of poetic forms and traditions" best ... ralph Blog: time4time Post: Jesse Glass Link: http://time4time.blogspot.com/2007/02/jesse-glass.html -- Powered by Blogger http://www.blogger.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 18:48:56 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Simon DeDeo Subject: query from Richard Fox MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Hi all -- translator Richard Fox (based in VT but briefly camped in my living room -- !) asked me to pass on this query. You can reach him at foxricha@gmail.com. >>looking for any work done on the use of >>etruscan language-literature by the modernists in particular any kind of >>fenollosan radial appropriation e3vents. anyone who has worked or knows work >>like this please contact thanks!! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 19:58:50 -0800 Reply-To: ishaq1824@shaw.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ishaq arashi Organization: planatation13 Subject: lost works do what you like and other works MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit peace, i am writing in reference to a short writ entitled "do what you like" a story about the killing of a girl in my town set the music of blind faith. i was wonder is you still have a copy of the story since i was the subject a hate crime which presented itself in the form of a break in into my flat and my computer, which contained my writing, was stolen along with my prayer mat. i am currently attempting to retrieve some of my lost writings you assistance would be much appreciated kh sincerely l y braithwaite http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Ytzhak_Braithwaite http://www.sidebrow.net/2006/a047braithwaite.php ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 01:33:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: query from Richard Fox In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Does any Etruscan literature survive? At 07:48 PM 2/18/2007, you wrote: >Hi all -- translator Richard Fox (based in VT but briefly camped in >my living room -- !) asked me to pass on this query. You can reach >him at foxricha@gmail.com. > >>>looking for any work done on the use of >>etruscan language-literature >by the modernists in particular any kind of >>fenollosan radial >appropriation e3vents. anyone who has worked or knows work >>like >this please contact thanks!! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 22:56:41 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Re: query from Richard Fox In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20070219013306.064b7ea8@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A wonderful culture. Fine metal work and pottery, as we know, sensual and sophisticated, Romans learned lots from this civilization. Hong Kong, in September, had a wonderful exhibition - world class. agj --- Mark Weiss wrote: > Does any Etruscan literature survive? > > At 07:48 PM 2/18/2007, you wrote: > >Hi all -- translator Richard Fox (based in VT but > briefly camped in > >my living room -- !) asked me to pass on this > query. You can reach > >him at foxricha@gmail.com. > > > >>>looking for any work done on the use of > >>etruscan language-literature > >by the modernists in particular any kind of > >>fenollosan radial > >appropriation e3vents. anyone who has worked or > knows work >>like > >this please contact thanks!! > --- ____________________________________________________________________________________ TV dinner still cooling? Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV. http://tv.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 01:57:21 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Dylan Welch Subject: Re: Haiku as a genre MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wrote before about why "a cotton lycra weave lifts/ from plants it catches" doesn't work, at least for me, as haiku. However, you raise an interpretation that would lead me to suggest changing "plants it catches" to "plants it catches on," which would be much clearer to me. But I am still left with having no reason for the fabric to be having any relationship with plants in the first place, so to be the verse is still problematic. You make a good point that it presents a moment (a catch, and then release), which many haiku also do, but that is not enough, especially when there are other problems. Also, Murat, you refer to "strict form." But do you mean 5-7-5? Remember, I reject 5-7-5 for English-language haiku, at least as a target (it can be okay if it's by accident, and avoids many of the padding/chopping and awkward line break problems that many 5-7-5 haiku have). The strictness that I would look for is more in terms of clarity of sensory images (these aren't clear enough), using a season word (nope), and a two-part juxtapositional structure, equivalent to a kireji (again, nope), plus an overall gestalt. As I mentioned, the other verse about ana crumpling silver paper is much closer to haiku -- for starters, the central image is immediate and clear (crumpling silver paper), there's a seasonal reference (santa), and a juxtaposition of the two parts. The whole did not work for me in that case, however. Alison, your 7-5-7 "enryu" seems like it must have been a lot of fun to create. Michael In a message dated 16-Feb-07 9:06:19 PM Pacific Standard Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU writes: Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 18:02:01 -0500 From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Haiku as a genre Michael, "a cotton lycra weave lifts/ from plants it catches" seems to the in terms of spirit, rather than strict form, the closest to Haiku. It is about perception. A piece of cloth is caught/snagged (during walk?) by a plant (with thorns). The continuing motion pulls the plant for a moment, but then the plant is detached. It is this moment between catching and detaching (the puill of motion and counter pull of the static) which the poem catches, which is wonderful, and it seems to me exactly in the spirit of haiku. The chairs, in half beings buried in snow, are pigeons in the park. I am enjoying your posts. Ciao, Murat ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 02:05:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: query from Richard Fox In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20070219013306.064b7ea8@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline "Etruscan Places," D.H. Lawrence? M. On 2/19/07, Mark Weiss wrote: > > Does any Etruscan literature survive? > > At 07:48 PM 2/18/2007, you wrote: > >Hi all -- translator Richard Fox (based in VT but briefly camped in > >my living room -- !) asked me to pass on this query. You can reach > >him at foxricha@gmail.com. > > > >>>looking for any work done on the use of >>etruscan language-literature > >by the modernists in particular any kind of >>fenollosan radial > >appropriation e3vents. anyone who has worked or knows work >>like > >this please contact thanks!! > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 02:55:51 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Dylan Welch Subject: Re: Haiku as a genre MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yikes, did I ever miss that! Yes, of course, the Santa Ana winds are warm (been too long since I lived in Southern California -- 19 years). That makes a lot of difference to the poem. Which goes to show you the power of line breaks, which in this case completely confused me (and, ahem, thus I'd change them). I'm still puzzled by why the wind would crumple silver paper, though, and still seems to be insufficient for a haiku, plus it also loses the seasonal reference I wondered about (Santa). Thanks for pointing the Santa Anas, Barry. Michael In a message dated 17-Feb-07 9:02:21 PM Pacific Standard Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU writes: Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 04:50:03 +0000 From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: Haiku as a genre Should we not read "santa ana" as one name? Remember the Alamo! > > warm santa > ana crumples silver > paper > > I would take "Ana" to be the name of a little girl, > and she's crushing silver paper, though we don't > know why. This is juxtaposed with "warm santa," so > the leap between these two elements is something in > common with haiku. But why is the Santa warm? I > don't get that -- and it's both unresolved and > probably unresolvable. Sure, the mention of Santa > and and silver paper suggests Christmas, but so > what? This fulfills a seasonal expectation for > haiku, but that in itself is not enough, even for > the best haiku. There is often something connected > TO a season that carries additional meaning in some > way, rather than merely giving you a sense of the > season. But what's the overall message or feeling > here? I feel a bit too confused by it to know, or to > feel enough from it. I think of the bilingual haiku > journal Ginyu, in Japan, edited by Ban'ya Natsuishi, > that might be attracted to this poem for its > avant-garde or slightly tantalizing (unresolved) > psychological effect (I mean "avant-garde > " in terms of haiku, of which Natsuishi is a leading > proponent). But I would still bet that most haiku > readers would be puzzled by it, in an unresovable > way, nor would they find any meta-resolution in > realizing that it's unresolvable, because even > *that* effect is achieved with more control than I > see in these words. It seems too confusing in its > whole effect, even while I like the image of a girl > crumpling silver paper. I can suspend my disbelief > on reading about a girl crumpling silver paper, but > I have trouble suspending disbelief when offered the > incomplete image of whatever a "warm santa" is. > (Also not keen on the word "paper" being a line by > itself.) Is this a haiku? I think it comes closer > than any of the other pieces offered here. On the > other hand, folks like Hiroaki Sato have said that > haiku is whatever a person wants to call a haiku. > That's a bit too liberal for me, or a way of dodging > any discussion of the matter, for clearly even he > himself has a notion that make > s a haiku different from, say, a novel. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 03:44:07 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: Re: query from Richard Fox In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20070219013306.064b7ea8@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed d .h. lawrence wrote a book called Etruscan Places i haven't read it so no idea if touches on these-- if you can read Italian, that wd be a good place to start looking, among Italian writers-- >From: Mark Weiss >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: query from Richard Fox >Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 01:33:30 -0500 > >Does any Etruscan literature survive? > >At 07:48 PM 2/18/2007, you wrote: >>Hi all -- translator Richard Fox (based in VT but briefly camped in my >>living room -- !) asked me to pass on this query. You can reach him at >>foxricha@gmail.com. >> >>>>looking for any work done on the use of >>etruscan language-literature >>by the modernists in particular any kind of >>fenollosan radial >>appropriation e3vents. anyone who has worked or knows work >>like this >>please contact thanks!! _________________________________________________________________ Want a degree but can't afford to quit? Top school degrees online - in as fast as 1 year http://forms.nextag.com/goto.jsp?url=/serv/main/buyer/education.jsp?doSearch=n&tm=y&search=education_text_links_88_h288c&s=4079&p=5116 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 11:03:10 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anny Ballardini Subject: Re: query from Richard Fox In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20070219013306.064b7ea8@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline I didn't know it either, or at least I forgot, here from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruscan_language Etruscan documents - *Liber Linteus * =97 An Etruscan linen book that ended as mummy wraps in Egypt. - *Tabula Cortonensis * =97 An Etruscan inscription. - *Cippus perusinus * =97 An Etruscan inscription. - *Pyrgi Tablets * =97 Bilingual Etruscan-Phoeniciangolden leaves. On 2/19/07, Mark Weiss wrote: > > Does any Etruscan literature survive? > > At 07:48 PM 2/18/2007, you wrote: > >Hi all -- translator Richard Fox (based in VT but briefly camped in > >my living room -- !) asked me to pass on this query. You can reach > >him at foxricha@gmail.com. > > > >>>looking for any work done on the use of >>etruscan language-literature > >by the modernists in particular any kind of >>fenollosan radial > >appropriation e3vents. anyone who has worked or knows work >>like > >this please contact thanks!! > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 08:22:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Waber Subject: ars poetica update Comments: To: announce MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii The ars poetica project continues to bloom at: http://www.logolalia.com/arspoetica/ Poems appeared last week by: Mary Maher, Vernon Frazer, and Sandra Alland. Poems will appear this week by: Sandra Alland, Maxianne Berger, and Jesse Glass. A new poem about poetry every day. Enjoy, Dan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 07:41:18 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nicholas Karavatos Subject: Beware of yourselves! Beware of each other! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Stay away from poets. The erring follow them. Qur’an 26:224 (Pickthal) And the Poets, - It is those straying in Evil, who follow them: Qur’an 26:224 (Yusuf Ali) And as to the poets, those who go astray follow them. Qur’an 26:224 (Shakir) As for the poets, they are followed only by the strayers. Qur’an 26:224 (Khalifa) WaalshshuAAarao yattabiAAuhumu alghawoona _________________________________________________________________ Find what you need at prices you’ll love. Compare products and save at MSN® Shopping. http://shopping.msn.com/default/shp/?ptnrid=37,ptnrdata=24102&tcode=T001MSN20A0701 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 06:00:40 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amy king Subject: EVIE SHOCKLEY GUEST EDITS MIPOESIAS In-Reply-To: <43318.79147.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MiPOesias presents [http://www.mipoesias.com/EVIESHOCKLEYISSUE] Evie Shockley, Guest Editor A. Van Jordan Aracelis Girmay Brandon D. Johnson C.S. Giscombe Camille Dungy Carl Martin Cherryl Floyd-Miller Christian Campbell Christopher Stackhouse Derrick Weston Brown Douglas Kearney Duriel E. Harris Ed Roberson G.E. Patterson Geoffrey Jacques giovanni singleton kim d. hunter Kyle G. Dargan L. Teresa Church Lenard D. Moore Lyrae Van Clief-Stefanon Marilyn Nelson Meghan Punschke Mendi Lewis Obadike Opal Moore Raina Leon Reginald Harris Reginald Shepherd Tara Betts Thylias Moss Tonya Foster Treasure Williams Tyrone Williams http://www.mipoesias.com/EVIESHOCKLEYISSUE/ --------------------------------- Finding fabulous fares is fun. Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 13:40:28 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: Haiku as a genre In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit But I had a different wrong interpretation of Santa Ana--as suggested by my call to "remember the Alamo." General Santa Ana was the Mexican general (and later, president) who led the siege against the Alamo. Michael Dylan Welch wrote: Yikes, did I ever miss that! Yes, of course, the Santa Ana winds are warm (been too long since I lived in Southern California -- 19 years). That makes a lot of difference to the poem. Which goes to show you the power of line breaks, which in this case completely confused me (and, ahem, thus I'd change them). I'm still puzzled by why the wind would crumple silver paper, though, and still seems to be insufficient for a haiku, plus it also loses the seasonal reference I wondered about (Santa). Thanks for pointing the Santa Anas, Barry. Michael In a message dated 17-Feb-07 9:02:21 PM Pacific Standard Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU writes: Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 04:50:03 +0000 From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: Haiku as a genre Should we not read "santa ana" as one name? Remember the Alamo! > > warm santa > ana crumples silver > paper > > I would take "Ana" to be the name of a little girl, > and she's crushing silver paper, though we don't > know why. This is juxtaposed with "warm santa," so > the leap between these two elements is something in > common with haiku. But why is the Santa warm? I > don't get that -- and it's both unresolved and > probably unresolvable. Sure, the mention of Santa > and and silver paper suggests Christmas, but so > what? This fulfills a seasonal expectation for > haiku, but that in itself is not enough, even for > the best haiku. There is often something connected > TO a season that carries additional meaning in some > way, rather than merely giving you a sense of the > season. But what's the overall message or feeling > here? I feel a bit too confused by it to know, or to > feel enough from it. I think of the bilingual haiku > journal Ginyu, in Japan, edited by Ban'ya Natsuishi, > that might be attracted to this poem for its > avant-garde or slightly tantalizing (unresolved) > psychological effect (I mean "avant-garde > " in terms of haiku, of which Natsuishi is a leading > proponent). But I would still bet that most haiku > readers would be puzzled by it, in an unresovable > way, nor would they find any meta-resolution in > realizing that it's unresolvable, because even > *that* effect is achieved with more control than I > see in these words. It seems too confusing in its > whole effect, even while I like the image of a girl > crumpling silver paper. I can suspend my disbelief > on reading about a girl crumpling silver paper, but > I have trouble suspending disbelief when offered the > incomplete image of whatever a "warm santa" is. > (Also not keen on the word "paper" being a line by > itself.) Is this a haiku? I think it comes closer > than any of the other pieces offered here. On the > other hand, folks like Hiroaki Sato have said that > haiku is whatever a person wants to call a haiku. > That's a bit too liberal for me, or a way of dodging > any discussion of the matter, for clearly even he > himself has a notion that make > s a haiku different from, say, a novel. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 06:51:40 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: query from Richard Fox In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20070219013306.064b7ea8@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark Weiss wrote: > Does any Etruscan literature survive? > > At 07:48 PM 2/18/2007, you wrote: >> Hi all -- translator Richard Fox (based in VT but briefly camped in >> my living room -- !) asked me to pass on this query. You can reach >> him at foxricha@gmail.com. >> >>>> looking for any work done on the use of >>etruscan language-literature >> by the modernists in particular any kind of >>fenollosan radial >> appropriation e3vents. anyone who has worked or knows work >>like >> this please contact thanks!! > > There's Lee Hyla's We Speak Etruscan But it's a duet for baritone saxophone & bass clarinet, so depending on what "work done on" means to you.... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 09:28:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: this week in Oxford Ohio Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Here's a heads-up about two events next week that are part of an ongoing exhibition at the Miami University Art Museum--please see the department website for details and biographies: http:// www.units.muohio.edu/english/events.html#imageworks. The schedule you'll find there with other information: Tuesday, February 20 12 p.m. Miami University Art Museum Marjorie Welish will discuss the conceptual and theoretical relationship of word and image in a lecture entitled "Read Red: Between Reading and Seeing." Free and open to the public Thursday, February 22 7 p.m. Miami University Art Museum Readings by Norma Cole, Tom Raworth, and Marjorie Welish with introductory remarks on IMAGEworks/WORDworks by Keith Tuma Free and open to the public The biographies linked from the site above should tell you what you need to know, but maybe I should add here that Marjorie Welish is not only a fine poet and painter but also a very smart writer about literature, art, and aesthetic theory--she moves easily between Continental and Anglo-American philosophy. I hope that a few of you who might not otherwise turn out for a poetry reading might turn out to hear her talk about text and image at the museum on Tuesday at noon. Please feel free to forward the link to faculty and students in other departments and to others who might be interested. Several of the writer/artists will be visiting a range of classes in the department next week. Keith -- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 10:07:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: sandra de 1913 Subject: 1913's Rozanova Prize MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline "All writing is collaboration." ...I think Robert Kelly said that. 1913 says: There's till time to submit to THE ROZANOVA* PRIZE for a collaborative and/or visual book, to be published in a beautiful perfect-bound edition by 1913 Press. Winner also receives standard royalties contract and 25 copies of the book. "COLLABORATIVE and/or VISUAL" are as open modalities as you want to make them. (Cross-outs, cut-ups, collage, conversation, wiki-work, decollage, bricolage, multi-authored texts, non-authored texts, hooked on homophonics, anxiously influenced work, chance...) Please see 1913 a journal of forms and 1913's book publications for fine examples: Seismosis by John Keene + Christopher Stackhouse and Sightings by Shin Yu Pai http://journal1913.org/home.html DEADLINE: March 13, 2007 $20 entry fee ALL entries will be considered for publication by 1913. All contest entrants will receive a copy of the winning book. ** Multiple entries are accepted, but must be sent under separate cover either online: http://www.journal1913.org/prizes.html or by mail to: 1913 Press Box 9654 Hollins University Roanoke, Virginia 24020 Please email the editrice@journal1913.org with any questions at all. 1913 looks forward to the opportunity to read your work...and collaborate! http://www.journal1913.org *After Olga Rozanova (1886-1918), Russian avant-garde (Cubo-Futurist, Proto-Suprematist, Neo-Primitivist) artist who began constructing book art objects in 1913, in collaboration with Kruchenykh, Klebnikhov, and Malevich. Rozanova died young and unexpectedly, a week before the October Revolution anniversary. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 11:04:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: query from Richard Fox In-Reply-To: <945893.44721.qm@web54611.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Of course, but their literature doesn't survive (there are inscriptions) and their language, as far as I know, is largely undeciphered. Which would limit the ways in which modernists could use it. Or maybe not. People do write in Klingon. Mark At 01:56 AM 2/19/2007, you wrote: >A wonderful culture. Fine metal work and pottery, as >we know, sensual and sophisticated, Romans learned >lots from this civilization. Hong Kong, in September, >had a wonderful exhibition - world class. > >agj > >--- Mark Weiss wrote: > > > Does any Etruscan literature survive? > > > > At 07:48 PM 2/18/2007, you wrote: > > >Hi all -- translator Richard Fox (based in VT but > > briefly camped in > > >my living room -- !) asked me to pass on this > > query. You can reach > > >him at foxricha@gmail.com. > > > > > >>>looking for any work done on the use of > > >>etruscan language-literature > > >by the modernists in particular any kind of > > >>fenollosan radial > > >appropriation e3vents. anyone who has worked or > > knows work >>like > > >this please contact thanks!! > > > > >--- > > > >____________________________________________________________________________________ >TV dinner still cooling? >Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV. >http://tv.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 12:16:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Haiku as a genre In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Michael, I do believe "catches on" will weaken the piece a lot and make it, as I see it, neither poem nor haiku. Why this is so requires an elaborate explanation which finally may not be too useful. Along with the rules of haiku, are you not using your range of sensibility as a reader also as a standard? To me there is nothing unclear about "catches." "Catches on" is the "correct" expression if you can not accept "lycra," as an active and even ominous agent. The poem obviously does. Ciao, Murat On 2/19/07, Michael Dylan Welch wrote: > > > I wrote before about why "a cotton lycra weave lifts/ from plants it > catches" doesn't work, at least for me, as haiku. However, you raise an > interpretation that would lead me to suggest changing "plants it catches" > to "plants it > catches on," which would be much clearer to me. But I am still left with > having no reason for the fabric to be having any relationship with > plants in the > first place, so to be the verse is still problematic. You make a > good point > that it presents a moment (a catch, and then release), which many > haiku also > do, but that is not enough, especially when there are other problems. > > Also, Murat, you refer to "strict form." But do you mean 5-7-5? Remember, > I > reject 5-7-5 for English-language haiku, at least as a target (it can be > okay > if it's by accident, and avoids many of the padding/chopping and awkward > line break problems that many 5-7-5 haiku have). The strictness that > I would > look for is more in terms of clarity of sensory images (these aren't clear > enough), using a season word (nope), and a two-part juxtapositional > structure, > equivalent to a kireji (again, nope), plus an overall gestalt. As I > mentioned, > the other verse about ana crumpling silver paper is much closer to haiku > -- for > starters, the central image is immediate and clear (crumpling silver > paper), > there's a seasonal reference (santa), and a juxtaposition of the two > parts. > The whole did not work for me in that case, however. > > Alison, your 7-5-7 "enryu" seems like it must have been a lot of fun to > create. > > Michael > > > In a message dated 16-Feb-07 9:06:19 PM Pacific Standard Time, > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU writes: > > Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 18:02:01 -0500 > From: Murat Nemet-Nejat > Subject: Re: Haiku as a genre > > Michael, > > "a cotton lycra weave lifts/ from plants it catches" seems to the in > terms > of spirit, rather than strict form, the closest to Haiku. It is about > perception. A piece of cloth is caught/snagged (during walk?) by a plant > (with thorns). The continuing motion pulls the plant for a moment, > but then > the plant is detached. It is this moment between catching and detaching > (the > puill of motion and counter pull of the static) which the poem catches, > which is wonderful, and it seems to me exactly in the spirit of haiku. > > The chairs, in half > beings buried in > snow, > are > pigeons > > in the park. > > > I am enjoying your posts. > > Ciao, > > Murat > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 13:00:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: more from performanceville MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed performance/dance of sorts @ http://www.asondheim.org/fallenbb.mp4 apologies to the designers of background objects/images and http://www.asondheim.org/floater.mov again for direct avi from Second Life then two still images @ two dancers two dances two roses two worlds two dancers two dances two roses two worlds two dancers two dances two roses two worlds two dancers two dances two roses two worlds two dancers two dances two roses two worlds two dancers two dances two roses two worlds two dancers two dances two roses two worlds http://nikuko.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 13:22:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: query from Richard Fox In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20070219102303.05c91f58@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline If I remember it correctly, Lawrence describes the Etruscan pottery, etc, of course, from the point of view of a writer. Murat On 2/19/07, Mark Weiss wrote: > > Of course, but their literature doesn't survive (there are > inscriptions) and their language, as far as I know, is largely > undeciphered. Which would limit the ways in which modernists could > use it. Or maybe not. People do write in Klingon. > > Mark > > At 01:56 AM 2/19/2007, you wrote: > >A wonderful culture. Fine metal work and pottery, as > >we know, sensual and sophisticated, Romans learned > >lots from this civilization. Hong Kong, in September, > >had a wonderful exhibition - world class. > > > >agj > > > >--- Mark Weiss wrote: > > > > > Does any Etruscan literature survive? > > > > > > At 07:48 PM 2/18/2007, you wrote: > > > >Hi all -- translator Richard Fox (based in VT but > > > briefly camped in > > > >my living room -- !) asked me to pass on this > > > query. You can reach > > > >him at foxricha@gmail.com. > > > > > > > >>>looking for any work done on the use of > > > >>etruscan language-literature > > > >by the modernists in particular any kind of > > > >>fenollosan radial > > > >appropriation e3vents. anyone who has worked or > > > knows work >>like > > > >this please contact thanks!! > > > > > > > > >--- > > > > > > > > >____________________________________________________________________________________ > >TV dinner still cooling? > >Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV. > >http://tv.yahoo.com/ > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 11:01:38 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: on print vs online books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYKb_ZCdr5g : Cory Doctorow explains why the more free e-books an author gives away, the more money the author makes. ja ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 11:53:40 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amy king Subject: Re: on print vs online books In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks for posting this! Jim Andrews wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYKb_ZCdr5g : Cory Doctorow explains why the more free e-books an author gives away, the more money the author makes. ja --------------------------------- Be a PS3 game guru. Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 12:18:47 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: alexander saliby Subject: Re: chinese new year (request for words on duilian) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Deborah, From Li Po; Sorry, can't report on who gets credit for the translation, I forgot to copy that information down when I was scribbling these two lines down in my notebook. " moments of your life are as a precious coin each deserves the care to be spent wisely..." Alex >From: Deborah Poe >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: chinese new year (request for words on duilian) >Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 18:06:09 -0500 > >i would love to hear more on antithetical couplets should you care to wax >duilian... > >http://en.epochtimes.com/news/7-2-16/51783.html > >"May the shining stars bless our generations. >May our great virtue always bring success." > >everyone, happy chinese new year. > >--d. poe > >(sorry for x-posting) > >-----Original Message----- >From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On >Behalf Of Jim Andrews >Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 2:51 PM >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Jean-Pierre Balpe on "Hyperfiction" > >http://hyperfiction.blogs.liberation.fr is a blog by Jean-Pierre Balpe on >"Hyperfiction". > >ja >http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:05:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christina Milletti Subject: Exhibit X Fiction Presents Dave Kress Feb 21 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable THE EXHIBIT X FICTION SERIES PRESENTS novelist and short story writer DAVE KRESS Wednesday, February 21 8:00pm Hallwalls at The Church 341 Delaware Avenue Buffalo, NY DAVE KRESS is the author of two works of fiction: Counting Zero, a = novel, and Martians, a creature. A new novel, Glorified-or-Thermometers = of God, will be published in 2007. He is an Assistant Professor of = English at the University of Maine, Orono, where he teaches creative = writing and contemporary literature. "Dave Kress's first novel reminds us how intelligent a form the novel = can be, in the right hands. Counting Zero is a keenly apprehended story, = written with articulate zest and a voracious appetite for the things of = everyday life seen in consummate detail. Mr. Kress has begun what = promises to be a sparkling career as a novelist. Yes, Virginia, there = are still some stylists on the Rialto."=20 --Paul West FORTHCOMING EXHIBIT X EVENTS: Percival Everett, Friday March 2, 7pm Shelley Jackson, Friday March 30, 7pm Joanna Scott, Thursday April 19, 7pm More information about our guests, as well as streaming video of our = past events, can be found at www.english.buffalo.edu/exhibitx.=20 Best, Christina _______________________________ Christina Milletti Assistant Professor of English Director: Exhibit X Fiction Series University at Buffalo, SUNY Office: 533 Clemens Hall Phone: 716.645.2575 x1056 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 12:42:27 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Beware of yourselves! Beware of each other! In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable It is the poets whom the erring follow. Qu'ran 26:224 (Rodwell) On 18-Feb-07, at 11:41 PM, Nicholas Karavatos wrote: > Stay away from poets. The erring follow them. > Qur=92an 26:224 (Pickthal) > > And the Poets, - It is those straying in Evil, who follow them: > Qur=92an 26:224 (Yusuf Ali) > > And as to the poets, those who go astray follow them. > Qur=92an 26:224 (Shakir) > > As for the poets, they are followed only by the strayers. > Qur=92an 26:224 (Khalifa) > > WaalshshuAAarao yattabiAAuhumu alghawoona > > _________________________________________________________________ > Find what you need at prices you=92ll love. Compare products and save = at =20 > MSN=AE Shopping. =20 > http://shopping.msn.com/default/shp/?=20 > ptnrid=3D37,ptnrdata=3D24102&tcode=3DT001MSN20A0701 > > George "Whip" Bowering A law-abiding driver. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 12:56:33 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Betsy Andrews Subject: New Jersey reading venues? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi. Looking for good places to read in New Jersey, and contacts there. Please backchannel me. Thanks much, Betsy --------------------------------- Looking for earth-friendly autos? Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 21:57:03 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew Jones Subject: Re: Beware of yourselves! Beware of each other! In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline that's what I like to hear, we still got it On 2/19/07, Nicholas Karavatos wrote: > Stay away from poets. The erring follow them. > Qur'an 26:224 (Pickthal) > > And the Poets, - It is those straying in Evil, who follow them: > Qur'an 26:224 (Yusuf Ali) > > And as to the poets, those who go astray follow them. > Qur'an 26:224 (Shakir) > > As for the poets, they are followed only by the strayers. > Qur'an 26:224 (Khalifa) > > WaalshshuAAarao yattabiAAuhumu alghawoona > > _________________________________________________________________ > Find what you need at prices you'll love. Compare products and save at MSN(r) > Shopping. > http://shopping.msn.com/default/shp/?ptnrid=37,ptnrdata=24102&tcode=T001MSN20A0701 > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 13:16:37 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: Beware of yourselves! Beware of each other! In-Reply-To: <99000c9652ce1704df2804960615dc6d@sfu.ca> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable To err is to be human. Follow me. Poet's Almanac & Advertiser Volume 1, Page 1 Mt. Holy Oak, Massachusetts, 1642 > It is the poets whom the erring follow. > Qu'ran 26:224 (Rodwell) >=20 > On 18-Feb-07, at 11:41 PM, Nicholas Karavatos wrote: >=20 >> Stay away from poets. The erring follow them. >> Qur=92an 26:224 (Pickthal) >>=20 >> And the Poets, - It is those straying in Evil, who follow them: >> Qur=92an 26:224 (Yusuf Ali) >>=20 >> And as to the poets, those who go astray follow them. >> Qur=92an 26:224 (Shakir) >>=20 >> As for the poets, they are followed only by the strayers. >> Qur=92an 26:224 (Khalifa) >>=20 >> WaalshshuAAarao yattabiAAuhumu alghawoona >>=20 >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Find what you need at prices you=92ll love. Compare products and save at >> MSN=AE Shopping. =20 >> http://shopping.msn.com/default/shp/? >> ptnrid=3D37,ptnrdata=3D24102&tcode=3DT001MSN20A0701 >>=20 >>=20 > George "Whip" Bowering > A law-abiding driver. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:17:01 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: New Jersey reading venues? In-Reply-To: <20070219205633.9652.qmail@web52905.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just find a nice lawn with a couple big, old shade trees. Then stretch out in the shade and go to it. Uh, maybe it would be best to wait until it warms up a bit there. Hal "What does a poet need an unlisted number for?" --George Costanza Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com halvard@earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Feb 19, 2007, at 2:56 PM, Betsy Andrews wrote: > Hi. > > Looking for good places to read in New Jersey, and contacts there. > Please backchannel me. Thanks much, Betsy > > > --------------------------------- > Looking for earth-friendly autos? > Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 13:24:41 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: on print vs online books In-Reply-To: <559595.77263.qm@web83311.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Thanks for posting this! > > Jim Andrews wrote: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYKb_ZCdr5g : Cory Doctorow > explains why the > more free e-books an author gives away, the more money the author makes. You're welcome. It sounds quite good, doesn't it, coming from someone whose book is in its sixth printing. Many have been saying the same for years. ja http://vispo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 16:16:24 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Lunday Subject: Poetics Blog MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hello All, Come on in! - Outsider (Literary) Artists - Queen of Kanji (Rasula/McCaffery, Imagining Language) - Poetry on Film - The Mid-Length Long Poem ... and other topics at: http://www.robertlunday.com (A WordPress blog) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 14:32:13 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Rothenberg Subject: Friends of Big Bridge Comments: To: walterblue@bigbridge.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Friends of Big Bridge, We are now accepting tax-deductible donations. For almost a decade we have been able to produce and maintain Big Bridge at a minimal expense, however, due to rising costs, staff changes, and the need to continue to bring you more of the best poetry, art and everything else, we humbly ask for your support. Every little bit counts. Please, help us keep Big Bridge online. Please make checks out to Committee on Poetry, Inc., and specify on the check FOR: Big Bridge. Mail donations to: Big Bridge 16083 Fern Way Guerneville, CA. 95446 You will recieve a letter of acknowledgment upon receipt of your donation. And, of course, we thank you very much for your many years of support. Peace, Michael Rothenberg, Editor Big Bridge http://www.bigbridge.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:37:50 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Vidaver Subject: Open Text Reading Series #1: Peter Culley (Vancouver) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit OPEN TEXT READING SERIES #1 Sponsored by the Canada Council for the Arts & the Creative Writing Program at Capilano College http://capilanocreativewriting.blogspot.com The Spring 2007 OPEN TEXT series at Capilano College begins on March 1st 2007 with a reading by Nanaimo poet Peter Culley, who will be reading from his new work, "The Age of Briggs & Stratton". 12:30 Cedar 136 Capilano College 2055 Purcell Way North Vancouver Peter Culley, poet and art critic, has published Twenty-one (Oolican 1980), Fruit Dots (Tsunami 1985), Natural History (Fissure 1986) The Climax Forest (Leech, 1995) and Hammertown (New Star, 2003). The untitled second installment of Hammertown is due from New Star in the fall of '08. His writing on artists such as Stan Douglas, Roy Arden, Kelly Wood and Geoffrey Farmer has appeared in numerous catalogues and journals. Culley resides in South Wellington, near Nanaimo, on Vancouver Island, BC. L'Orphee So much of L' Orphee plays in the grim middle-aged way poor Spicer never lived to see that its like I know better; ie Jean Marais is how we're supposed to look on the inside & those hoopleheads at the Cafe rioting over Johnny Ray as Mrs. Mills tinkles at 78 & the Hugo Boss bike cops drop their mitts-- what Martian could have predicted an Elvis emerging from their thin Hugenot gruel? Why do the youngsters blame me? Don't their radios get the CBC? -- from "The Age of Briggs & Stratton" For info: Roger Farr rfarr@capcollege.bc.ca 604.986.1911 (2554) [Coming soon: Marie Annharte Baker, March 7th; Dorothy Trujillo Lusk, March 15th] ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 16:00:18 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eric Dickey Subject: To Topos: Poetry International In-Reply-To: <001a01c75475$f36b97d0$6401a8c0@LENOVO5E22278F> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Reading announcement http://www.gazettetimes.com/articles/2007/02/19/lifestyles/books/book02.txt Publication announcement: To Topos: Poetry International, volume 9, Ahani: Indigenous American Poetry with special guest editor Allison Adelle Hedge Coke. Featuring poems by Joy Harjo, Orlando White, Hugo Jamioy, Heid E. Erdrich and many others. Includes translations with poems in Kamsa, Quechua, Mayan, Mapuche, Lenape, Comanche, Western Cherokee, Spanish and more. Could possibly be the first and only poetry anthology by indigenous American poets. 350 pages, $12.00. For ordering information visit: http://oregonstate.edu/dept/foreign_lang/totopos/. Or send $14.50 ($12 plus $2.50 for shipping) to: To Topos, 210 Kidder Hall, Oregon State University, Corvallis, OR 97331. _______________________________________________________________ About To Topos To Topos is an international poetry journal that features poetry in translation, oftentimes the original appears together with its English translation. The following is excerpted from our Poet's Market entry: "To Topos is committed to fostering human rights on an environmentally fragile planet. Its focus is altermondialist, recognizing that the causes of poverty and injustice are often related to race, gender, nationality, and the effacement of earth-given resources. Most issues are thematically focused. "Previous themes include Incarceration, Peace and the Sea, Forests, and North African Voices. Winona LaDuke (White Earth Land Recovery Project) and Dr. William F. Schulz (Amnesty International) have prefaced recent issues. The journal is open to both aspiring and recognized poets. The journal particularly invites submissions from refugees and the borderless. The journal is primarily interested in living poets who believe words carry the gift of positive social change. "The mission of this journal is to reveal the human face of poetry as a statement of urgency in today's world. The journal is open to all aesthetic and stylistic orientations, but submissions should be a seed for social change along humanist principles without indulging in political or nationalist rhetoric." In May 2006, Ms. Hedge Coke addressed the United Nations regarding the effect of publication impact on Indigenous Human Rights. We are in the process of reading the 250+ submissions for the forthcoming issue on Poetry and Poverty. Decisions to be made soon. Guest edited by Dr. Karen Holmberg of Oregon State University, our tenth volume will feature an introduction by Michael Parenti. Our issue dedicated to Contemporary Hungarian Poetry, guest edited by Eniko Bollobas of Eötvös Loránd University, Budapest was presented to the Hungarian Prime Minister. To purchase copies of the Hungarian issue, or other back issues: http://oregonstate.edu/dept/foreign_lang/totopos/index.html Future themes include Water, Contemporary Turkish Poetry (postponed) and Contemporary Poetry from Wallonia. Our 2004 issue on Forests features an introduction by Winona LaDuke and was given a favorable review in the prominent French poetry journal, Friches. The 2005 issue on North African Voices was featured on www.babelmed.net. We just received an Oregon Literary Arts Fellowship for Publishers grant in 2006. Our pages include works by the likes of academics, asylum inmates, Nobel and Pulitzer candidates, scholars, and farmers. For more information or to order back issues: http://oregonstate.edu/dept/foreign_lang/totopos/index.html --------------------------------- Have a burning question? Go to Yahoo! Answers and get answers from real people who know. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 16:40:23 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Betsy Andrews Subject: Maureen Owen's email MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Can someone backchannel it to me, or ask her to email me? Got a quick question for her, thanks. --------------------------------- The fish are biting. Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 18:30:34 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: Princeton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Dear Friends and Colleagues: Do you know or use the Princeton Encyclopedia of Poetry and Poetics in any or all of its three editions (1965, 1974, 1993)? Have you found something useful in it? Do you wish it contained something it lacks? If you don't spend much time with poetry, do you know someone elsewhere who does? Preparation of a fourth edition has begun, and both Roland Greene, who is Editor-in-Chief, and I, as General Editor, would welcome any and all suggestions and thoughts about which entries to keep, which to drop, which to add. We have begun working our way through the 1700 entries of the third edition in order to make these decisions, and that work should occupy us for the next month or so. If you have ideas or suggestions, please send them along during this time (rgreene@stanford.edu or sbc9g@virginia.edu). And please feel free to forward this message far and wide to colleagues working with poetry in any language throughout the United States and in other countries. The Princeton Encyclopedia has users around the world, and we are trying to cast a world-wide net. Gratefully, Steve Stephen Cushman Department of English University of Virginia 219 Bryan Hall P.O. Box 400121 Charlottesville, VA 22904-4121 tel: 434-924-6676 fax: 434-924-1478 email: sbc9g@virginia.edu -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly@gmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 22:25:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tisa Bryant Subject: Last Call for Free Books from Leon Works! Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Once more, with feeling! On behalf of Renee Gladman: Leon Works, an independent publisher of experimental prose and poetry,=20= wants to expand its mailing list. If you are interested in teaching or=20= writing about crossing genres, places, cultures, or time, and want=20 access to Leon titles, please do the following: =A0 1. Email your name and mailing address to Renee Gladman at=20 leroy_years@hotmail.com. =A0 2. Indicate whether you already own either of the first two titles,=20 Sonny by Mary Burger or Incubation: A Space for Monsters by Bhanu=20 Kapil. =A0 Books forthcoming this spring and summer from Leon are What Began Us by=20= Melissa Buzzeo and Unexplained Presence by Tisa Bryant. =A0 All the best, =A0 Renee Editor & Publisher ____________________________________________ I searched, but I could not find You; I called You aloud, standing on=20 the minaret; I rang the temple bell with the rising and setting of the=20= sun; I bathed in the Ganges in vain; I came back from Kaaba=20 disappointed; I looked for You in earth; I searched for You in heaven,=20= my Beloved, but at last I have found You hidden as a pearl in the shell=20= of my heart. Complete Sayings, Hazrat Inayat Khan= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 22:37:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jkrick@GMAIL.COM Subject: New EPC Paul Violi Page MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: Quoted-printable All,=A0 The Electronic Poetry Center (http://epc.buffalo.edu) is pleased to announce its new Paul Violi page (http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/violi). Please pay us a visit sometime soon.=A0 Jack Krick=A0 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 23:01:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carol Novack Subject: soliciting submissions for mad hatters' review -- Comments: To: e-pubs@yahoogroups.com, lit-events@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi Everyone --- Our reading period for Issue 8, guest edited by Debra Di Blasi, is open through March 1st. Seeking (unpublished) risky, lyrical/rhythmic/imagismic/orgiastic highly original-inventive, offbeat-unruly yet at least vaguely "accessible" prose, poetry, so-called non-fiction, dramatic variations and experimental forms of various mono and multimedia configurations and combinations audio, visual, textual, and oracular. Please see our submission guidelines. Thanks! Carol Novack Publisher/Editor-in-Chief MAD HATTERS' REVIEW: Edgy & Enlightened Literature, Art & Music in the Age of Dementia: *http://www.madhattersreview.com * KEEP THE MAD HATTERS ALIVE! MAKE A TAX DEDUCTIBLE DONATION HERE: *https://www.fracturedatlas.org/site/contribute/donate/580 * ** ______________________ *http://carolnovack.blogspot.com/ * http://www.nd.edu/~ndr/issues/ndr23/contents23.htmlhttp://www.webdelsol.com/Del_Sol_Review/ http://www.amletters.org/index.html#Anchor-Special-49575 http://www.poetserv.org/SRR27/novack.html *http://blazevox.org/062-cn.htm http://webdelsol.com/5_trope/21/novack.html http://emergingwriters.typepad.com/emerging_writers_network/2007/01/work_of_the_day_21.html http://www.webdelsol.com/eSCENE/series20.html http://webdelsol.com/PortalDelSol/pds-interview-mhr.htm * ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 02:08:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: [stuff-it] FW: Dixie Chicks, part of tradition of progressive country music (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="0-285307117-1171955327=:20422" This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --0-285307117-1171955327=:20422 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Just in case you haven't seen these articles - Alan ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 22:53:44 -0800 From: Michael Gurstein To: stuff-it@vancouvercommunity.net Subject: [stuff-it] FW: Dixie Chicks, part of tradition of progressive country music Well worth a read, especially the second article. MG -----Original Message----- From: moderator@PORTSIDE.ORG [mailto:moderator@PORTSIDE.ORG] Sent: February 18, 2007 5:54 PM To: PORTSIDE@LISTS.PORTSIDE.ORG Subject: Dixie Chicks, part of tradition of progressive country music Dixie Chicks, part of tradition of progressive country music * Dixie Chicks Among Esteemed Outlaws by Ashley Sayeau (Philadelphia Inquirer) * Wild And Blue: The Politics Of Country By Sandy Carter (Z Magazine) =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Dixie Chicks Among Esteemed Outlaws by Ashley Sayeau Philadelphia Inquirer - February 16, 2007 http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/editorial/16709871.htm On Sunday night at the 49th annual Grammy awards, the Dixie Chicks took home five awards, including best album, record and song of the year. It was a long road, indeed, for the Chicks, whose enormous fan base and ticket sales famously plummeted in 2003 after lead singer Natalie Maines remarked on the eve of the Iraq war that the group was "ashamed the president of the United States is from Texas." Within days, radio stations were refusing to play their music, and fans were demanding refunds. Death threats were later issued. Throughout the ordeal, the group remained admirably unapologetic, insisting that dissent is (or at least should be) a vital liberty in America. They further maintained this position in their album Taking the Long Way (which won the Grammy for best album) and especially in the song "Not Ready To Make Nice," in which they directly addressed their critics: "It's too late to make it right/ I probably wouldn't if I could/ Cause I'm mad as hell/ Can't bring myself to do what it is/ You think I should." Despite the group's successes, the grudge has held, particularly among the Nashville music establishment. The Country Music Association completely snubbed the Chicks at its awards ceremony in May. Such an affront on the part of country music is not only cowardly, but also quite antithetical to the genre's history. For, while country music today is often equated with pickup trucks, rebel flags, and men with mullets, it also has a brave and, dare I say, liberal streak in its closet. Take Johnny Cash, for instance. Not only did many of his most famous lyrics center on "the poor and the beaten down," including a poignant attack on this country's treatment of American Indians, but also Cash was a vocal critic of the Vietnam War, as in his famous song "Man in Black": "I wear the black in mourning for the lives that could have been/ Each week we lose a hundred fine young men." And then there is Willie Nelson, who on Valentine's Day 2006 released a love song about gay cowboys, titled, "Cowboys Are Frequently, Secretly (Fond of Each Other)." Perhaps more seriously, he has been an avid supporter of presidential hopeful Dennis Kucinich, who, while arguing for universal health care and a swift withdrawal from Iraq, is probably the furthest left of any Democratic candidate. Women in country music - like the Dixie Chicks - have a long tradition of being particularly bold in speaking out against some of the very conventions their record labels and conservative fan base celebrate. Back in 1933, the Carter Family, which consisted of A.P. Carter; his wife, Sara Doughtery Carter; and her cousin, the groundbreaking guitar player Maybelle Addington Carter, sang about a young woman who chose to commit suicide rather than marry. In Sara's sorrowful croon, we hear her say, "I never will marry/ I'll be no man's wife/ I expect to live single all the days of my life." Needless to say, she later divorced A.P. Perhaps most memorable are some of Loretta Lynn's lyrics, particularly from the 1960s and 1970s. Released in 1966, her song "Dear Uncle Sam" was an early anti- Vietnam protest song. And though she once feigned dozing off while listening to feminist advocate Betty Friedan speak as a fellow guest on The David Frost Show, Lynn was a pretty controversial women's advocate. In "I Wanna Be Free," she wrote of the liberating effect of divorce: "I'm gonna take this chain from around my finger/ And throw it just as far as I can sling 'er." She did the same thing for birth control in "The Pill": "The feelin' good comes easy now/ Since I've got the pill." As daring as some outlaw artists have been, the country music establishment has often proved even more dogged in its conservative views. Lynn has purportedly had more songs banned than any other country music singer. And Cash, never completely at home in the country music world, once said that "the very idea of unconventional or even original ideas ending up on 'country' radio" was "absurd." No wonder, then, that in his gay cowboy song, Willie Nelson lamented that "you won't hear this song on the radio/ Not on your local TV." With the November election, particularly with strong Democratic gains in Virginia and Missouri, Republican politicians may have to rethink their long-standing Southern strategy. Similarly, with last Sunday night's awards, country music should embrace the fact that its greatest assets have never been scared of controversy or doing the right thing. To quote the great Dolly Parton - who has sung a few feminist, antiwar, and progressive anthems herself - "You'll never do a whole lot unless you're brave enough to try." [Ashley Sayeau is a freelance writer currently living in Buffalo, N.Y., was raised in Tennessee, and has written on women and politics for a variety of anthologies and publications, including The Nation, Salon and Dissent.] =C2=A9 2007 Philadelphia Inquirer =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Wild And Blue: The Politics Of Country By Sandy Carter Z Magazine - September 1994 http://zena.secureforum.com/znet/zmag/articles/sept94carter.htm Some of the fondest memories of my west Texas childhood are linked to the lonesome moan of the pedal steel guitar and the soulful honky tonk voices of Hank Williams, Lefty Frizzell, and Ernest Tubb. In the 1950s, as I was entering grade school and gaining some awareness of the world around me, these sounds served up essential clues to my sense of time and place. A few years later, however, I perceived that some considered country music inferior to other forms of popular music. Southern accents, nasal voices, and bad grammar, I learned, were the most visible signs of this inferiority. So I became self conscious about my drawl and with some vigilance and discipline began modifying my twang according to standards I took to be more enlightened. But the full arsenal of Southern stereotypes was not so easy to escape. In my 20s, as I began living and working in other parts of the country, I came to realize that people outside the South, particularly politically progressive people outside the South, judged white Southerners and nearly all aspects of their cultural heritage as backward. And this snobbery often found its most candid expression in mocking and ridiculing country music. The elitist views that define popular prejudices about the country tradition greeted the music at its commercial birth. In the 1920s, when country music first felt the pressures of commercialization, rural traditions of all kinds were experiencing tensions and challenges brought on by industrialization. Country sounds suggesting older and more settled ways seemed inherently at odds with rapid social and technological change. The music expressed a longing for stability and order and deep-seated fears of the temptations of the modern world. At the same time, the music could not help but reflect hopes of escaping the hardships associated with traditional rural life. Conflicted feelings also derived from the Southerness of the music. While the music of Stephen Foster and the writings of Mark Twain fueled romantic notions of the South as an exotic land of enchantment, the region also evoked images of slavery and the Civil War, the Scopes monkey trial, and the Klan. Thus for many, country music, regardless of its subject matter, was nothing more than the sound of ignorance and racism. Retaining a stubborn self-consciousness of its white, rural, Southern, working class origins, country music today continues to attract and repulse listeners by stirring the same opposing images. Nonetheless, in a span of 70 years, country music has grown from regional to national and international popularity. And presently, the music is cresting at a commercial high-water mark justifying marketing claims that country is now "America's pop music." With mass popularity, however, some of the most distinctive qualities of country music have been diluted. Listening to the musical styles dominating country radio, one hears a generic McDonald's styled product so stripped of "hayseed" connotations that it virtually erases the line between country and various forms of easy listening white pop and bland 1970s styled corporate rock. While harder and more traditional country sounds have not disappeared, the market driven industry bias toward an urban-suburban contemporary sound has certainly muddled the definition and origins of the musical idioms known as country. Like other music forms of our culture, country music is an amalgam of influences. Its sound, song structure, and lyrical text reveal a heavy debt to African American musical styles, particularly blues and gospel. Rhythmically, country draws most on the dance meters of English and European country dance tunes. As to lyrics and narrative style, country storytelling has roots in Southern Protestant sermonizing, barroom banter, front porch story swapping, and the general character of regional oral traditions. Other distinctive characteristics relate to the way the music is performed. Unlike many pop performers, country singers write much of their material bringing a subjective, direct voice to their performance. Like blues singers, they aim for intimacy more than technical sophistication. In the singer's voice and story lay the central appeal of country music. Though country music is a vocal music above all else, its instrumental sound is unique and immediately identifiable. It begins with the guitar and is filled out with fiddle, banjo, mandolin, dobro, bass, pedal steel guitar, and harmonica. The distinctive country sound comes from the way the musicians play these instruments with flat picks, finger picks, bottlenecks, and bow. In contrast to the smooth, melodic approach of pop and classical music, country players, again showing an African American influence, favor a rough-edged attack with strings popped, scraped, hammered, and frailed. Mirroring the unadorned vocal sound, instrumental solos and fills are deliberately "unrefined." The emphasis is on sounds that counterpoint the social and emotional realism conveyed by the singer and the song. Accordingly, country sounds are harsh, rowdy, romantic, humorous, and rousing. Most of all, they are mournful. Did you ever see a robin weep When leaves begin to die That means he's lost the will to live I'm so lonesome I could cry --Hank Williams Historically the most dominant and unmistakable quality of the country sound is sadness. One of the great stereotypes plaguing country music is the cry-in-the- beer loser drowning the pain of romantic loss in some dark tavern. But the heartbreak in country music runs deeper than cheating, drinking, and divorce. The sad tale country music has to tell goes back to the devastation the region suffered during the Civil War, the loss of rural identity, and the great migration of Southerners to urban centers in the Midwest and West during the 1940s and 1950s. Understandably, country music is homesick music, permanently colored by feelings of longing and lost innocence. The loss at the heart of the country song has been expressed through two divergent impulses. When the Carter Family and Jimmie Rodgers came to Bristol, Tennessee in August 1927 to perform before record scout Ralph Peer and a Victor Talking Machine, they brought with them distinct bodies of material representing seemingly contradictory themes and values. In the Carter Family's huge repertoire of traditional songs resided the morally decent old-time virtues of work, family, humility, and Christian fellowship. By contrast, Rodgers, an ex-railroad brakeman from Meridian, Mississippi, wrote tunes with roots in blues and jazz, folk and cowboy songs, work gang hollers and pop. Though Rodgers wrote his share of songs glorifying the home and family, his work also celebrated the lives of hell-raisers, hoboes, wayward lovers, criminals, rounders, and ramblers. Both approaches proved immediately popular. By 1933, the year of his death from tuberculosis, Jimmie Rodgers had become country's first crossover success and in the South his status was near mythic. And by the time the Carter Family disbanded in 1943, their music was well- known throughout the United States, as well as parts of Canada, Mexico, England, Ireland, and Australia. Aside from establishing the commercial viability of country music, the breakthroughs of Rodgers and the Carter Family gave the shared musical culture of the white South coherence. Though commercialization accelerated the homogenization of sounds, by documenting the diversity of local and regional styles it also helped Southerners gain a fuller sense of their common cultural heritage. The music labeled "hillbilly" dramatized what they suffered, survived, and left behind. It offered solace and understanding, realism and escape. But most of all, it was music that responded to change with a reassertion of tradition. The Carter Family's religious tunes and sentimental ballads and Jimmie Rodgers' chronicles of the rambling man, in different ways, mapped the boundaries of tradition and the dire consequences of its breakdown. Because of this emphasis on Southerness and tradition, country music has long been associated with all that is reactionary. However, while country music generally expresses a conservative outlook, the view of country as an exclusively white, male-dominated, right-wing tradition is unfair and one-dimensional. At no point in its history has country music expressed a consistent political ideology. Although performers such as W. Lee O'Daniel, Jimmie Davis, and Roy Acuff have run for political office and many country musicians have endorsed candidates and aired opinions in public, the music resists easy ideological labeling. Every hard- headed patriotic diatribe like "Okie From Muskogee" can be matched by songs like Waylon Jennings's multicultural, egalitarian anthem "America" and James Talley's ode to populist rebellion "Are They Gonna Make Us Outlaws Again?": Now there's always been a bottom And there's always been a top And someone took the orders And someone called the shots And someone took the beatin', Lord And someone got the prize Well, that may be the way its been But that don't mean its right More importantly, since country music has always been a voice for small farmers, factory hands, day laborers, the displaced and unemployed, its harsh portraits of work and everyday life carry an implicit critique of capitalism. Instead of overt political protest, country songs prefer to deliver social criticism through poignant descriptions of economic hardship and family sacrifice. Some of the best examples of this style of protest are Merle Haggard's "Mama's Hungry Eyes," Dolly Parton's "Coat Of Many Colors," and Loretta Lynn's "Coal Miner's Daughter." As to the issue of race, country music's sentimental attachment to Dixie is often taken as an endorsement of white supremacy and slavery. Country music's glorification of the South, however, derives mostly from an idealized notion of working the land and the real life movement of millions off the land during the years of the Great Depression and World War II. Not surprisingly, hundreds of country tunes plead the case of the farmer and celebrate the beauty of Southern landscapes. By contrast, since the birth of the country music industry in the 1920s, very few country songs have offered direct commentary on race relations in the South, and certainly no popular song has advocated a return to the slave system. This doesn't mean, of course, that white Southerners or the country music industry are free of racism. Rather, it suggests that the homesickness in country music is based primarily on the erosion of rural identity. Still, it is obvious that "whiteness" is dominant in country music. Despite the tradition's enormous debt to African American music and other ethnic music cultures, non-white performers are still exceedingly rare in country music. When voices of color have gained popularity in the country field, it has generally been through songs and styles evidencing only traces of their racial origins. Nonetheless, in recent decades Mexican-Americans such as Johnny Rodriguez, Freddy Fender, Tish Hinojosa, and Flaco Jiminez and African Americans such as Charlie Pride, Stoney Edwards, and Big Al Downing have won acceptance with country audiences. And occasionally, there are tunes like Bobby Braddock's "I Believe The South Is Gonna Rise Again" that break the mold: The Jacksons down the road were black like we were But our skins were white and theirs was black I believe the South's gonna rise again But not the way we thought it would back then Some of the strongest stereotypes attached to country music revolve around the social and sexual roles of women. To many people Tammy Wynette's 1968 hit "Stand By Your Man" typifies the passive, long suffering mentality of the unliberated country woman. In truth, the female perspective in country music is much broader and far more assertive than this superficial stereotype can allow. The richest and most authoritative evidence of this reality can be found in Mary Bufwack and Robert Oermann's Finding Her Voice: The Saga Of Women In Country Music(Crown Publishers Inc., New York). This 541 page narrative tracing the lives and music of country women from the late 19th century up to the present, shows how country music has encouraged white working class women in their struggles to survive and resist "economic exploitation, sexual subjugation, and limited opportunities." Exploring the folk origins of country music, Bufwack and Oermann argue that women were the primary folklorists for early rural music, memorizing the tunes and lyrics that provided the basic entertainment for the family and community. And in their own original ballads, women expressed sexual fantasies and discontents in songs loaded with images of romantic longing, promiscuity, violence, and death. Bufwack and Oermann also reveal more active and socially oriented resistance in the depression era songs of Sarah Gunning, the composer of "I Hate The Capitalist System," and Aunt Molly Jackson, who began making up class conscious songs and walking picket lines before she was ten. It was not until the 1950s, however, that women in country music began to gain commercial equality with men. Following Kitty Well's surprising 1952 hit "It Wasn't God Who Made Honky Tonk Angels"--a woman's retort to Hank Thompson's "The Wild Side Of Life--women singers such as Patsy Cline, Loretta Lynn, Dolly Parton, and Tammy Wynette started achieving record sales and stardom rivaling country men. The appeal of the modern country female star, Bufwack and Oermann note, in many ways mirrored general trends in country music. Country tunes of the 1950s and 1960s still focused on subjects of work, family, and religion. But reflecting an audience that was now struggling to come to grips with the realities of urban life and wage labor, the music increasingly dealt with alcoholism, infidelity, and divorce. Reacting to these problems from a distinctly female point of view, country women stepped forward with songs displaying tougher attitudes. Sad songs of betrayal prevailed, but women now would sing also of sexual freedom and nights on the town. And in love songs, women would voice a straightforward demand for relationships based on fair play and an end to double standards. Some of the purest samples of this new toughness came in a string of popular tunes by Loretta Lynn. With a basic hard country sound and a writing style favoring down-to-earth blue collar bluntness, Lynn laid down the law to men in songs such as "Fist City" and "Don't Come Home A-Drinking (With Loving On Your Mind)." With her singles "The Pill" and "One's On The Way," Lynn also became the first popular country singer to publicly advocate for birth control. These attitudes and Lynn's reputation for gearing her shows to women, earned her a legion of devoted, fanatical fans, including a large lesbian following. Although few country music women of the 1950s and 1960s made music as self-consciously for women as Lynn, the emergence of country women superstars put "the woman's perspective" on substantially more equal terms with that of the working man. By 1984 about one-fourth of the top country singles and albums were by women. And today's country and pop charts are overflowing with country women--Reba McEntire, Wynonna Judd, Mary Chapin-Carpenter, Trisha Yearwood, Suzy Bogguss, Kathy Mattea, Patty Loveless, Pam Tillis, and K.T. Oslin, to mention only a few. Most significantly, the commercial appeal of the current generation of country women seems directly linked to a feminist oriented lyric. Lorrie Morgan, for instance, takes clear control of her relationships in "What Part Of No," "Watch Me," and "5 Minutes." Michelle Wright shows off a similar attitude on "Take It Like A Man." And Martina McBride rebels against an abusive husband on "Independence Day." As these examples suggest (and many others could be given), the most progressive and defiant strains of contemporary country music are being created by women. While the politics of country music eludes many popular prejudices and neat categories of left and right, the fundamental conservatism of the message cannot be denied. Country's conservatism, however, comes not from taking a particular stand on particular issues, but in the way it reads and resolves conflict. Country music may be one of the truest forms of popular music in giving voice to the bitter realities of class and the sorry state of male-female relations. But in offering few avenues of escape and rebellion, country music tends to settle struggle in favor of the powers that be. Change in country music comes mostly from individual hard work and sacrifice, luck, and God. The music's vision of community is insular and backward looking. And as a result, failure breeds feelings of self-blame and resignation. Nonetheless, country's stoic acceptance of things as they are cannot be taken as an unqualified endorsement of the status quo. The great strength of country music has been its ability to capture white working class life as it really is and without the projection of false hope. Country music knows you can't always get what you want or what you need no matter how hard you try. In this realistic assessment of limits, the music contradicts capitalist ideals of progress, fairness, and happiness through consumption. Accordingly, throughout most of its commercial history, country music has been dismissed as something beneath and apart from mainstream culture. Fully aware of country music's "negatives," the Nashville music establishment has periodically regroomed the sound and image of the tradition with hopes of winning respectability and crossover appeal. In the 1950s and 1960s, it was the smooth, urbane "Nashville Sound," in the 1970s it was the tasteless pop country of John Denver and Olivia Newton-John, and in the 1980s it was Urban Cowboy role playing. Although all of these trends gave country a temporary commercial boost, hard-core country fans and musicians reacted to each with a purist backlash (bluegrass, the Bakersfield sound, Willie Nelson and Waylon Jennings' "outlaw" movement, neotraditionalism) that eventually brought the market back around to traditional sounds. In the Reagan-Bush-Clinton era, country music has slowly ascended again to mainstream popularity with sounds and images revealing few traces of country's old-time rough edges. This time around country's new audience seems to come from aging white boomers and younger middle-income suburbanites who've tired of classic rock and can't tolerate aggressive youth sounds (metal, hip-hop, alternative rock) or easy listening pop. For these listeners, country supplies a guitar based rock influenced sound, adult subject matter, and yearning for a more simple and decent way of life. Unfortunately in meeting this demand, the music industry has again resorted to formula: muscles in big hats, starched boot cut Wranglers, choreographed sexy moves, and pale, twang-free impersonations of heartbreak. But at the borders of country, in the progressive new voice of women, left-of-center hillbilly folk (Jimmie Dale Gilmore, Tom Russell, and Iris Dement), country rock (Rodney Crowell and Travis Tritt), traditional bluegrass (the Johnson Mountain Boys), and tradition conscious hard country (Dwight Yoakam and Marty Brown), you can still hear the raw emotions and wild and blue themes of a truly populist art form. The "old" story country music has to tell is too real and too rooted to be forgotten. [Sandy Carter was born in Gulfport, Mississippi and grew up in Amarillo, Texas. While attending the University Of Texas at Austin, he became active in the late 60s anti-war, student, and civil rights movements. During the last three decades he has been active in organizing around workplace, community, and mental health issues. Since the early 80s, he has been living in the Bay Area. His writing on music, politics, and popular culture has appeared in the Bay Guardian and The San Francisco Chronicle. "Slippin' & Slidin," his column on music and popular culture, appears monthly in Z Magazine. He currently works as a high school counselor in Novato, California.] =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D _____________________________________________ Portside aims to provide material of interest to people on the left that will help them to interpret the world and to change it. Submit via email: moderator@portside.org Submit via the Web: portside.org/submit Frequently asked questions: portside.org/faq Subscribe: portside.org/subscribe Unsubscribe: portside.org/unsubscribe Account assistance: portside.org/contact Search the archives: portside.org/archive !DSPAM:2676,45da7d0025681792683703! --0-285307117-1171955327=:20422-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 03:35:58 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Dylan Welch Subject: Re: Haiku as a genre MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This little thread goes to show how widely something as simple as a haiku can be interpreted, which can be both good and bad. That's why it's often called an "unfinished poem" -- it requires reader engagement and interpretation. I wonder, though, if perhaps this poem has too much ambiguity, which could be controlled just a little bit to prevent unhelpful misreadings. Capping "Santa Ana" is an option. Not breaking the line after "santa/Santa" would be another option. Or perhaps not. Given the word "warm," I suspect the poem is more likely to do with the warm Santa Ana winds than that thar Alamo (which, ahem, I forgot). (I plead Alamo-ignorance based on the fact that I'm British -- and now also Canadian.) Michael In a message dated 19-Feb-07 9:03:11 PM Pacific Standard Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU writes: Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 13:40:28 +0000 From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: Haiku as a genre But I had a different wrong interpretation of Santa Ana--as suggested by my call to "remember the Alamo." General Santa Ana was the Mexican general (and later, president) who led the siege against the Alamo. Michael Dylan Welch wrote: Yikes, did I ever miss that! Yes, of course, the Santa Ana winds are warm (been too long since I lived in Southern California -- 19 years). That makes a lot of difference to the poem. Which goes to show you the power of line breaks, which in this case completely confused me (and, ahem, thus I'd change them). I'm still puzzled by why the wind would crumple silver paper, though, and still seems to be insufficient for a haiku, plus it also loses the seasonal reference I wondered about (Santa). Thanks for pointing the Santa Anas, Barry. Michael In a message dated 17-Feb-07 9:02:21 PM Pacific Standard Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU writes: Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 04:50:03 +0000 From: Barry Schwabsky Subject: Re: Haiku as a genre Should we not read "santa ana" as one name? Remember the Alamo! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 03:39:31 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Dylan Welch Subject: Re: Haiku as a genre MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sure, I can go with what you're saying, Murat. However, a fabric could also catch something the way a net catches something, which is different, hence the possible confusion. But only a minor one, to be sure. This is aside from whether it's a haiku or not, and I would still say it's too far removed to work as haiku. Michael In a message dated 19-Feb-07 9:03:11 PM Pacific Standard Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU writes: Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 12:16:56 -0500 From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Haiku as a genre Michael, I do believe "catches on" will weaken the piece a lot and make it, as I see it, neither poem nor haiku. Why this is so requires an elaborate explanation which finally may not be too useful. Along with the rules of haiku, are you not using your range of sensibility as a reader also as a standard? To me there is nothing unclear about "catches." "Catches on" is the "correct" expression if you can not accept "lycra," as an active and even ominous agent. The poem obviously does. Ciao, Murat ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 10:59:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tisa Bryant Subject: Hi-5 Virus Alert: It Not Me Do It! Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear all, If you get a message from "me" with a link asking you to join hi5 or something, don't click the link! It's serious viral spam. I got it from someone I know, so I clicked it, and now I think it might be sending wack mess to everyone in my address book. I'm trying to warn people....and I'm so sorry! You know how verbose I am, and that I preface my messages with all kinds of overture, and never send you something without personal comment of some sort, and a signature...so beware of future messages from a "me" who isn't me at all. blah blah crafted blah! If you get a message saying "Hey" in the subject line, calling you by your full name, with a winking emoticon after it, trash it! The bug has invaded Cynthia Sailers' and Julianna Spallhosz' emails, for all you literati out there acquainted with these two innocents. love, Tisa _______________________________________________ Art is the accomplice of love. _______________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 08:03:49 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Weishaus Subject: "The Way North" 2 text-2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "The Way North" 2 Text 2. http://web.pdx.edu/~pdx00282/North/North-2/text-2.htm -Joel ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 11:48:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: NYC Tonight: A 40th Birthday Celebration for Kurt Cobain Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Come See This Village Voice Choice and Timeout NY Critic's Pick Tonight --------------------- Boog City's Classic Albums Live presents =20 A 40th Birthday Celebration for Kurt Cobain =20 Tues. Feb. 20, 7:00 p.m., $8 =20 Cakeshop 152 Ludlow St. NYC =20 With all three Nirvana studio albums =20 =8BBleach, Nevermind, and In Utero=8B =20 performed live by =20 Daouets The Domestics Dibson T. Hoffweiler Jeffrey Lewis Limp Richard The Marianne Pillsburys The Olga Gogolas Renminbi Schwervon The Sparrows The Trouble Dolls Genan Zilkha =20 Hosted by Boog City editor and publisher David Kirschenbaum =20 Directions: F/V to Second Ave.; F to Delancey St.; J/M/Z to Essex St. Venue is between Stanton and Rivington streets. =20 For further information: 212-842-BOOG(2664), 212-253-0036, editor@boogcity.com, or http://www.cake-shop.com/ =20 Musical acts=B9 bios and websites follow show running order =20 *Bleach* =20 The Olga Gogolas 1. Blew 2. Floyd the Barber 3. About a Girl =20 Limp Richard 4. School 5. Love Buzz 6. Paper Cuts =20 The Olga Gogolas 7. Negative Creep 8. Scoff 9. Swap Meet =20 Jeffrey Lewis 10. Mr. Moustache 11. Sifting 12. Big Cheese =20 Marianne Pillsbury and The Song Hoes 13. Downer =20 *Nevermind* =20 1. Smells Like Teen Spirit 2. In Bloom =20 Schwervon 3. Come as You Are 4. Breed 5. Lithium =20 The Trouble Dolls 6. Polly 7. Territorial Pissings 8. Drain You =20 Genan Zilkha 9. Lounge Act 10. Stay Away 11. On a Plain =20 Dibson T. Hoffweiler 12. Something In The Way Endless, Nameless =20 *In Utero* =20 The Domestics 1. Serve The Servants 2. Scentless Apprentice 3. Heart-Shaped Box =20 Renminbi 4. Rape Me 5. Frances Farmer Will Have Her Revenge On Seattle 6. Dumb =20 Daouets 7. Very Ape 8. Milk It 9. Pennyroyal Tea =20 The Sparrows 10. Radio Friendly Unit Shifter 11. tourette's 12. All Apologies =20 =20 Bios: =20 *Daouets http://www.myspace.com/daouets DAOUETS is a mini-supergroup devised by three musicians who, as tireless collaborators in New York, wanted a little space for their solo material to breathe. Switching off instruments, songwriters, and moods with ease, the group draws on its diverse musical heritage and the diverse talents of its members. =20 *The Domestics http://www.thedomestics.com/ During a brief stint as an A&R assistant, Alina Moscovitz (ex-Bionic Finger= ) spent her days listening to piles of less-than-stellar demos. She decided she could do better, so she left the corporate world and returned to songwriting. She then hooked up with music supervisor and drummer Eric Shaw (fresh from the break-up of Conquistador which featured Sam Endicott of The Bravery). They soon lured Evan Silverman (ex-Rosenbergs) away from his jazz bass lessons in Paris and gigs at the Rainbow Room back to the world of rock.=20 As a trio, The Domestics morphed into a potent combination of blazing pop-punk energy, sickeningly catchy hooks, and lyrics that have a sharp wit and intelligence seldom heard inside of a three-minute song. If Debbie Harr= y shoved her way onstage during a Green Day show, the result might sound something like this. Besides constantly playing live shows, the Brooklyn-based band wrote the closing credits song, "Girl I Never Kissed" for the film The D Word, "Anorexic Love Song" appears on the X-Girls DVD and "Fire Hazard" was included in the "Say It Don't Spray It" compilation CD packaged with the Warped Tour DVD. The band has participated in MEANY Fest, International Pop Overthrow and LadyfestEast festivals. The Domestics are currently recording a full-length album. =20 *Dibson T. Hoffweiler http://dibson.net/ http://www.myspace.com/dibson/ The latest in a long line of quirky anti-folk ingenues, including Beck, Ada= m Green and Jeffrey Lewis, Dibs applies that time-honored tradition of off-beat songwriting to his own private world of sugar factories, laundry baskets and ducks. With a low voice, both sweet and deadpan, and a guitar-style both virtuosic and sloppy, Dibson Hoffweiler carves out a spac= e of compassion and intelligence in a landscape of boring love songs and thinly-veiled songwriterly misogyny. =20 Known for his work in anti-folk flagship bands Cheese On Bread, Huggabroomstik and Urban Barnyard, Dibs began his cultural life as an anonymous Moldy Peaches fan. But, after a stint working the soundboard at the Sidewalk Cafe, and two years generating buzz with his old band, Dibs & Sara, this Jersey boy established himself as a musical force in his own right. After several months touring Europe and North America, Dibs has proved (to himself, and to others) that his bizarre, ramshackle aesthetic i= s palatable outside the freaky comfort zone of New York anti-folk. =20 *Jeffrey Lewis http://www.thejeffreylewissite.com/ Jeffrey Lewis is a New York City born-and-bred comic book artist as well as being a local antifolk staple; with or without his band he performs his unique mix of lo-fi folk, sci-fi punk & hand-illustrated "low-budget videos= " regularly around the United States and Europe. As of 2007 he has three albums out on the venerable indie label Rough Trade and his most recent comic book series "Fuff" is up to issue #5. =20 *Limp Richard http://www.breedingground.com/ Limp Richard (tonight without his backing band, The Disappointments) is wrapping up recording of a new LP at Olive Juice. By the time it's released, however, it's probably going to have a completely different name. Just feeling ornery. =20 *Marianne Pillsbury and The Song Hoes http://www.mariannepillsbury.com/ Maine native Marianne Pillsbury writes pop-rock songs with cleverly-crafted= , hook-laden melodies and brash, witty, tongue-in-cheek lyrics. Released in 2004, her debut album The Wrong Marianne has received enthusiastic reviews from The New York Times, Time Out New York, The Boston Herald and The San Francisco Chronicle and elicited comparisons to the best work of Liz Phair, Juliana Hatfield and Jill Sobule. The album was named a Top 12 DIY Pick in Performing Songwriter Magazine. The song "Boo Hoo" won Best Alt/Rock Song i= n The Great American Song Contest 2004 and was also selected for inclusion on ROCKRGRL magazine's Discoveries 2005 compilation CD. =20 *The Olga Gogolas The itinerant and magisterial Olga Gogolas feature Wayne Waverly on guitar and vocals, and James Keepnews on bass-synth-noise watch. For this set, the OG's plan to completely demolish Cobain's original arrangements on six tracks from Bleach, only to resurrect them like so many false grunge deitie= s who stank of junk. =20 *Renminbi http://www.renminbinyc.com/ http://www.myspace.com/renminbi Definitely not for the faint-hearted, we combine stripped-down punk basics with ass-shaking keyboard grooves and apocalyptic build-ups. Someone else said it best: "Imagine Polvo fronted by Kim Gordon and you might have a sense of NYC trio Renminbi's sound. =8A Pitting frenetic drumbeats against postrock keyboards and angular guitar, Renminbi retain all the concision without losing an ounce of urgency.=B2 =20 *Schwervon! http://www.olivejuicemusic.com/schwervon.html http://www.myspace.com/schwervon Schwervon! Is a two-piece rock band. Nan and Matt have been a couple longer than they have been a band. Their relationship influences their art. Their art influences their relationship. They are two birds of a different feather. You might say one flies and one rolls and they meet in the middle with two halves of the worm. They are a collaboration. Is one Sonny and one Cher? Is one a pop lover and one a noise lover? Why do they both love food so much? Why are they obsessed with their cat Gummo? =20 *The Sparrows http://myspace.com/rachelandrew Andrew Phillip Tipton met Rachel Talentino in Savannah while working at The Gap. A common love for catchy melodies, Carole King, and boys led them to Brooklyn. As The Sparrows, Andrew and Rachel make up the cutest anti-folk duo around! Simple and lovely. =20 *The Trouble Dolls http://www.troubledolls.net/ Trouble Dolls are Cheri, Matty, and Chris. They play pop music. They are from Brooklyn. They do not smoke. Their album "Sticky" is available on Half a Cow Records. They thank you for coming to see them play. =20 *Genan Zilkha http://www.myspace.com/genanisfabulous Genan Zilkha, guitar/vocals, was a classically trained pianist until she found that she had a taste of rock and roll. Since that didn't work out, sh= e now spends her time writing folk songs with titles such as "I Think I Might Be Food Poisoning (But it could also be love)" and "I Know What Will Make You Not A Dyke." Genan is also known for her unique takes on Britney Spears songs, in particular her version of Britney's version of the Bobby Brown song "My Prerogative." She has performed at the Knitting Factory, as well a= s at venues throughout Rhode Island and Binghamton, NY. =20 ---- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://boogcityevents.blogspot.com/ T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 09:12:00 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Adam Fieled Subject: Ann Bogle on PFS Post MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Check out new work from Minnesota's Ann Bogle on PFS Post: http://www.artrecess.blogspot.com "Turn and face the strange changes...." http://www.adamfieled.blogspot.com --------------------------------- Looking for earth-friendly autos? Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 12:16:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nick Piombino Subject: Unnameable Book Party Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Please come celebrate the publication of Nick Piombino's *fait accompli* (with an afterword by Gary Sullivan) from Factory School's Heretical Texts http://www.factoryschool.org/pubs/heretical/vol3/piombino/index.html TUESDAY, February 27 at 8pm. at UNNAMEABLE BOOKS 456 Bergen Street Brooklyn NY 11217 (off Flatbush Avenue) (718) 789 1534 unnameablebooks@earthlink.net www.unnameablebooks.net Easy* to get to. Take the 2 or 3 train to Bergen street stop (not to be confused with the other Bergen stop on the F line). Unnameable Books is just 1/2 block from the subway. Pinchik paint is on the corner. *Bergen is one stop past the Atlantic AND Pacific St transfer point with the D,M,N,R and B,Q,2,3,4,5 lines ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 09:21:21 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: "Growing Up Girl" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit hi poetics people....big thanks to all who've emailed me support for this important book project. if you're interested in hosting a reading or discussion, feel free to be in touch with editor michelle sewell. her email is: Girlchildpress@aol.com. the anthology is also an interesting supplement for college courses and is currently being taught at a few schools across the country. it's been compared to cherrie moraga and gloria anzaldua's 1983 collection "this bridge called my back: writings by radical women of color." cheers, jennifer karmin Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 07:43:14 -0500 From: Ruth Lepson Subject: Re: "Growing Up Girl" Chicago reading >many congratulations on the anthology. I edited Poetry from >Sojourner: A Feminist Anthology & know what it means to gather the >words of disparate women & bring those words to a larger world. >Hope it is greeted warmly. Women & Children is a great place to >begin. Wish you success on your reading tour. On 2/8/07 6:47 PM, "Jennifer Karmin" wrote: > hey poetry friends....check out this new anthology of > women's writing edited by michelle sewell. it's a > terrific example of a community-based project being > fully supported by an independent press. > onwards, > jennifer karmin > ---------------------------- > Published by GirlChild Press, this eclectic collection > of poems, essays, and short stories documents the > transition from girl to woman as told by the girls and > women who know the journey best. The multicultural > anthology examines issues such as identity, domestic > violence, acceptance, motherhood, beauty, and > sexuality. It can be bought from independent > bookstores like Women and Children First or purchased > through http://www.girlchildpress.com. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need Mail bonding? Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396546091 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 09:42:27 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Clay Banes Subject: Saturday, FEB. 24 @ 7:30PM: Jill Magi, Dana Teen Lomax, Sarah Rosenthal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Poets Jill Magi, Dana Teen Lomax, and Sarah Rosenthal This Saturday @ 7:30PM PEGASUS BOOKS DOWNTOWN 2349 Shattuck Avenue Berkeley, CA 510.649.1320 Jill Magi is the author of Threads, a hybrid work of prose, poetry, and collage, due out in February 2007 from Futurepoem Books. She is also the author of Cadastral Map, a chapbook from Portable Press at Yo-Yo Labs, as well as several other small handmade books that she often gives away. Her writing and visual work has appeared in HOW2, The Brooklyn Rail, The New Review of Literature, Aufgabe, and Chain, and is forthcoming from The Tiny. She is a 2006-2007 writer-in-residence with the Lower Manhattan Cultural Council where she is at work on a manuscript investigating social memory and museums, monuments, and memorials. Jill teaches at City College and The Eugene Lang College of The New School, and from her apartment in Brooklyn, she runs Sona Books, a community-based chapbook press publishing risky and/or quiet, project-driven works. Dana Teen Lomax is the author of Curren=A2y (Palm Press, 2006). She is a fourth generation Californian who teaches poetry and writing at several institutions. Work from her publication, Room (a+bend press), was awarded the Joseph Henry Jackson Prize for poetry and her writing has been supporte= d by the California Arts Council, the Marin Arts Council, the Peninsula Community Foundation, the Academy of American Poets, and others. Currently she is co-editing Letters To Poets, Conversations About Poetics, Politics, and Community and making Q, a series of "home movies" about raising her daughter on the grounds of a prison. She lives with her family in northern California. Sarah Rosenthal is the author of three chapbooks: How I Wrote This Story (Margin to Margin, 2001), sitings (a+bend, 2000), and not-chicago (Melodeon, 1998). Her poetry and fiction has appeared in journals such as Bird Dog, Shampoo, 26, Fence, Lungfull!, Cross-Cultural Poetics (XcP), and Boston Review. It has been anthologized in Bay Poetics (Faux Press, 2006) and Hinge (Crack Press, 2002). Her reviews and interviews have appeared in Denver Quarterly, How2, Rain Taxi, Jacket, New American Writing, Aufgabe, and Xantippe. Sarah has taught creative writing at San Francisco State University and Santa Clara University. She is the recipient of the Primavera Fiction Prize and the Leo Litwak Award for Fiction. Her book Manhatten is forthcoming from Spuyten Duyvil. --=20 EYEBALL HATRED http://claytonbanes.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 09:47:50 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eric Dickey Subject: Re: [stuff-it] FW: Dixie Chicks, part of tradition of progressive country music (fwd) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I really appreciated reading the article on country music. Although I don't think of myself as a big fan of country music, I do appreciate its place. Back in the 1990s, I worked with some folks who were ardent country music fans. I realized then that country music is one of the last places for philosophical thought and reflection by folks who generally shun such intellectualism. In a sense, it's the last vestige for philosophical thought for many common, working class Americans. Some other great contributors to the genre, Ray Charles was country, so were the Grateful Dead, as is Neil Young, Tom Waits, and many others. These are folks who evade compartmentalization and who employ many genres into their art, including country. Even Wyclef Jean incorporates country into his music. Hopefully, like many posts I add to this list, this one will also be shot down. the one and only, Eric Wayne Dickey Alan Sondheim wrote: Just in case you haven't seen these articles - Alan ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 22:53:44 -0800 From: Michael Gurstein To: stuff-it@vancouvercommunity.net Subject: [stuff-it] FW: Dixie Chicks, part of tradition of progressive country music Well worth a read, especially the second article. MG -----Original Message----- From: moderator@PORTSIDE.ORG [mailto:moderator@PORTSIDE.ORG] Sent: February 18, 2007 5:54 PM To: PORTSIDE@LISTS.PORTSIDE.ORG Subject: Dixie Chicks, part of tradition of progressive country music Dixie Chicks, part of tradition of progressive country music * Dixie Chicks Among Esteemed Outlaws by Ashley Sayeau (Philadelphia Inquirer) * Wild And Blue: The Politics Of Country By Sandy Carter (Z Magazine) ========== Dixie Chicks Among Esteemed Outlaws by Ashley Sayeau Philadelphia Inquirer - February 16, 2007 http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/editorial/16709871.htm On Sunday night at the 49th annual Grammy awards, the Dixie Chicks took home five awards, including best album, record and song of the year. It was a long road, indeed, for the Chicks, whose enormous fan base and ticket sales famously plummeted in 2003 after lead singer Natalie Maines remarked on the eve of the Iraq war that the group was "ashamed the president of the United States is from Texas." Within days, radio stations were refusing to play their music, and fans were demanding refunds. Death threats were later issued. Throughout the ordeal, the group remained admirably unapologetic, insisting that dissent is (or at least should be) a vital liberty in America. They further maintained this position in their album Taking the Long Way (which won the Grammy for best album) and especially in the song "Not Ready To Make Nice," in which they directly addressed their critics: "It's too late to make it right/ I probably wouldn't if I could/ Cause I'm mad as hell/ Can't bring myself to do what it is/ You think I should." Despite the group's successes, the grudge has held, particularly among the Nashville music establishment. The Country Music Association completely snubbed the Chicks at its awards ceremony in May. Such an affront on the part of country music is not only cowardly, but also quite antithetical to the genre's history. For, while country music today is often equated with pickup trucks, rebel flags, and men with mullets, it also has a brave and, dare I say, liberal streak in its closet. Take Johnny Cash, for instance. Not only did many of his most famous lyrics center on "the poor and the beaten down," including a poignant attack on this country's treatment of American Indians, but also Cash was a vocal critic of the Vietnam War, as in his famous song "Man in Black": "I wear the black in mourning for the lives that could have been/ Each week we lose a hundred fine young men." And then there is Willie Nelson, who on Valentine's Day 2006 released a love song about gay cowboys, titled, "Cowboys Are Frequently, Secretly (Fond of Each Other)." Perhaps more seriously, he has been an avid supporter of presidential hopeful Dennis Kucinich, who, while arguing for universal health care and a swift withdrawal from Iraq, is probably the furthest left of any Democratic candidate. Women in country music - like the Dixie Chicks - have a long tradition of being particularly bold in speaking out against some of the very conventions their record labels and conservative fan base celebrate. Back in 1933, the Carter Family, which consisted of A.P. Carter; his wife, Sara Doughtery Carter; and her cousin, the groundbreaking guitar player Maybelle Addington Carter, sang about a young woman who chose to commit suicide rather than marry. In Sara's sorrowful croon, we hear her say, "I never will marry/ I'll be no man's wife/ I expect to live single all the days of my life." Needless to say, she later divorced A.P. Perhaps most memorable are some of Loretta Lynn's lyrics, particularly from the 1960s and 1970s. Released in 1966, her song "Dear Uncle Sam" was an early anti- Vietnam protest song. And though she once feigned dozing off while listening to feminist advocate Betty Friedan speak as a fellow guest on The David Frost Show, Lynn was a pretty controversial women's advocate. In "I Wanna Be Free," she wrote of the liberating effect of divorce: "I'm gonna take this chain from around my finger/ And throw it just as far as I can sling 'er." She did the same thing for birth control in "The Pill": "The feelin' good comes easy now/ Since I've got the pill." As daring as some outlaw artists have been, the country music establishment has often proved even more dogged in its conservative views. Lynn has purportedly had more songs banned than any other country music singer. And Cash, never completely at home in the country music world, once said that "the very idea of unconventional or even original ideas ending up on 'country' radio" was "absurd." No wonder, then, that in his gay cowboy song, Willie Nelson lamented that "you won't hear this song on the radio/ Not on your local TV." With the November election, particularly with strong Democratic gains in Virginia and Missouri, Republican politicians may have to rethink their long-standing Southern strategy. Similarly, with last Sunday night's awards, country music should embrace the fact that its greatest assets have never been scared of controversy or doing the right thing. To quote the great Dolly Parton - who has sung a few feminist, antiwar, and progressive anthems herself - "You'll never do a whole lot unless you're brave enough to try." [Ashley Sayeau is a freelance writer currently living in Buffalo, N.Y., was raised in Tennessee, and has written on women and politics for a variety of anthologies and publications, including The Nation, Salon and Dissent.] © 2007 Philadelphia Inquirer ========== Wild And Blue: The Politics Of Country By Sandy Carter Z Magazine - September 1994 http://zena.secureforum.com/znet/zmag/articles/sept94carter.htm Some of the fondest memories of my west Texas childhood are linked to the lonesome moan of the pedal steel guitar and the soulful honky tonk voices of Hank Williams, Lefty Frizzell, and Ernest Tubb. In the 1950s, as I was entering grade school and gaining some awareness of the world around me, these sounds served up essential clues to my sense of time and place. A few years later, however, I perceived that some considered country music inferior to other forms of popular music. Southern accents, nasal voices, and bad grammar, I learned, were the most visible signs of this inferiority. So I became self conscious about my drawl and with some vigilance and discipline began modifying my twang according to standards I took to be more enlightened. But the full arsenal of Southern stereotypes was not so easy to escape. In my 20s, as I began living and working in other parts of the country, I came to realize that people outside the South, particularly politically progressive people outside the South, judged white Southerners and nearly all aspects of their cultural heritage as backward. And this snobbery often found its most candid expression in mocking and ridiculing country music. The elitist views that define popular prejudices about the country tradition greeted the music at its commercial birth. In the 1920s, when country music first felt the pressures of commercialization, rural traditions of all kinds were experiencing tensions and challenges brought on by industrialization. Country sounds suggesting older and more settled ways seemed inherently at odds with rapid social and technological change. The music expressed a longing for stability and order and deep-seated fears of the temptations of the modern world. At the same time, the music could not help but reflect hopes of escaping the hardships associated with traditional rural life. Conflicted feelings also derived from the Southerness of the music. While the music of Stephen Foster and the writings of Mark Twain fueled romantic notions of the South as an exotic land of enchantment, the region also evoked images of slavery and the Civil War, the Scopes monkey trial, and the Klan. Thus for many, country music, regardless of its subject matter, was nothing more than the sound of ignorance and racism. Retaining a stubborn self-consciousness of its white, rural, Southern, working class origins, country music today continues to attract and repulse listeners by stirring the same opposing images. Nonetheless, in a span of 70 years, country music has grown from regional to national and international popularity. And presently, the music is cresting at a commercial high-water mark justifying marketing claims that country is now "America's pop music." With mass popularity, however, some of the most distinctive qualities of country music have been diluted. Listening to the musical styles dominating country radio, one hears a generic McDonald's styled product so stripped of "hayseed" connotations that it virtually erases the line between country and various forms of easy listening white pop and bland 1970s styled corporate rock. While harder and more traditional country sounds have not disappeared, the market driven industry bias toward an urban-suburban contemporary sound has certainly muddled the definition and origins of the musical idioms known as country. Like other music forms of our culture, country music is an amalgam of influences. Its sound, song structure, and lyrical text reveal a heavy debt to African American musical styles, particularly blues and gospel. Rhythmically, country draws most on the dance meters of English and European country dance tunes. As to lyrics and narrative style, country storytelling has roots in Southern Protestant sermonizing, barroom banter, front porch story swapping, and the general character of regional oral traditions. Other distinctive characteristics relate to the way the music is performed. Unlike many pop performers, country singers write much of their material bringing a subjective, direct voice to their performance. Like blues singers, they aim for intimacy more than technical sophistication. In the singer's voice and story lay the central appeal of country music. Though country music is a vocal music above all else, its instrumental sound is unique and immediately identifiable. It begins with the guitar and is filled out with fiddle, banjo, mandolin, dobro, bass, pedal steel guitar, and harmonica. The distinctive country sound comes from the way the musicians play these instruments with flat picks, finger picks, bottlenecks, and bow. In contrast to the smooth, melodic approach of pop and classical music, country players, again showing an African American influence, favor a rough-edged attack with strings popped, scraped, hammered, and frailed. Mirroring the unadorned vocal sound, instrumental solos and fills are deliberately "unrefined." The emphasis is on sounds that counterpoint the social and emotional realism conveyed by the singer and the song. Accordingly, country sounds are harsh, rowdy, romantic, humorous, and rousing. Most of all, they are mournful. Did you ever see a robin weep When leaves begin to die That means he's lost the will to live I'm so lonesome I could cry --Hank Williams Historically the most dominant and unmistakable quality of the country sound is sadness. One of the great stereotypes plaguing country music is the cry-in-the- beer loser drowning the pain of romantic loss in some dark tavern. But the heartbreak in country music runs deeper than cheating, drinking, and divorce. The sad tale country music has to tell goes back to the devastation the region suffered during the Civil War, the loss of rural identity, and the great migration of Southerners to urban centers in the Midwest and West during the 1940s and 1950s. Understandably, country music is homesick music, permanently colored by feelings of longing and lost innocence. The loss at the heart of the country song has been expressed through two divergent impulses. When the Carter Family and Jimmie Rodgers came to Bristol, Tennessee in August 1927 to perform before record scout Ralph Peer and a Victor Talking Machine, they brought with them distinct bodies of material representing seemingly contradictory themes and values. In the Carter Family's huge repertoire of traditional songs resided the morally decent old-time virtues of work, family, humility, and Christian fellowship. By contrast, Rodgers, an ex-railroad brakeman from Meridian, Mississippi, wrote tunes with roots in blues and jazz, folk and cowboy songs, work gang hollers and pop. Though Rodgers wrote his share of songs glorifying the home and family, his work also celebrated the lives of hell-raisers, hoboes, wayward lovers, criminals, rounders, and ramblers. Both approaches proved immediately popular. By 1933, the year of his death from tuberculosis, Jimmie Rodgers had become country's first crossover success and in the South his status was near mythic. And by the time the Carter Family disbanded in 1943, their music was well- known throughout the United States, as well as parts of Canada, Mexico, England, Ireland, and Australia. Aside from establishing the commercial viability of country music, the breakthroughs of Rodgers and the Carter Family gave the shared musical culture of the white South coherence. Though commercialization accelerated the homogenization of sounds, by documenting the diversity of local and regional styles it also helped Southerners gain a fuller sense of their common cultural heritage. The music labeled "hillbilly" dramatized what they suffered, survived, and left behind. It offered solace and understanding, realism and escape. But most of all, it was music that responded to change with a reassertion of tradition. The Carter Family's religious tunes and sentimental ballads and Jimmie Rodgers' chronicles of the rambling man, in different ways, mapped the boundaries of tradition and the dire consequences of its breakdown. Because of this emphasis on Southerness and tradition, country music has long been associated with all that is reactionary. However, while country music generally expresses a conservative outlook, the view of country as an exclusively white, male-dominated, right-wing tradition is unfair and one-dimensional. At no point in its history has country music expressed a consistent political ideology. Although performers such as W. Lee O'Daniel, Jimmie Davis, and Roy Acuff have run for political office and many country musicians have endorsed candidates and aired opinions in public, the music resists easy ideological labeling. Every hard- headed patriotic diatribe like "Okie From Muskogee" can be matched by songs like Waylon Jennings's multicultural, egalitarian anthem "America" and James Talley's ode to populist rebellion "Are They Gonna Make Us Outlaws Again?": Now there's always been a bottom And there's always been a top And someone took the orders And someone called the shots And someone took the beatin', Lord And someone got the prize Well, that may be the way its been But that don't mean its right More importantly, since country music has always been a voice for small farmers, factory hands, day laborers, the displaced and unemployed, its harsh portraits of work and everyday life carry an implicit critique of capitalism. Instead of overt political protest, country songs prefer to deliver social criticism through poignant descriptions of economic hardship and family sacrifice. Some of the best examples of this style of protest are Merle Haggard's "Mama's Hungry Eyes," Dolly Parton's "Coat Of Many Colors," and Loretta Lynn's "Coal Miner's Daughter." As to the issue of race, country music's sentimental attachment to Dixie is often taken as an endorsement of white supremacy and slavery. Country music's glorification of the South, however, derives mostly from an idealized notion of working the land and the real life movement of millions off the land during the years of the Great Depression and World War II. Not surprisingly, hundreds of country tunes plead the case of the farmer and celebrate the beauty of Southern landscapes. By contrast, since the birth of the country music industry in the 1920s, very few country songs have offered direct commentary on race relations in the South, and certainly no popular song has advocated a return to the slave system. This doesn't mean, of course, that white Southerners or the country music industry are free of racism. Rather, it suggests that the homesickness in country music is based primarily on the erosion of rural identity. Still, it is obvious that "whiteness" is dominant in country music. Despite the tradition's enormous debt to African American music and other ethnic music cultures, non-white performers are still exceedingly rare in country music. When voices of color have gained popularity in the country field, it has generally been through songs and styles evidencing only traces of their racial origins. Nonetheless, in recent decades Mexican-Americans such as Johnny Rodriguez, Freddy Fender, Tish Hinojosa, and Flaco Jiminez and African Americans such as Charlie Pride, Stoney Edwards, and Big Al Downing have won acceptance with country audiences. And occasionally, there are tunes like Bobby Braddock's "I Believe The South Is Gonna Rise Again" that break the mold: The Jacksons down the road were black like we were But our skins were white and theirs was black I believe the South's gonna rise again But not the way we thought it would back then Some of the strongest stereotypes attached to country music revolve around the social and sexual roles of women. To many people Tammy Wynette's 1968 hit "Stand By Your Man" typifies the passive, long suffering mentality of the unliberated country woman. In truth, the female perspective in country music is much broader and far more assertive than this superficial stereotype can allow. The richest and most authoritative evidence of this reality can be found in Mary Bufwack and Robert Oermann's Finding Her Voice: The Saga Of Women In Country Music(Crown Publishers Inc., New York). This 541 page narrative tracing the lives and music of country women from the late 19th century up to the present, shows how country music has encouraged white working class women in their struggles to survive and resist "economic exploitation, sexual subjugation, and limited opportunities." Exploring the folk origins of country music, Bufwack and Oermann argue that women were the primary folklorists for early rural music, memorizing the tunes and lyrics that provided the basic entertainment for the family and community. And in their own original ballads, women expressed sexual fantasies and discontents in songs loaded with images of romantic longing, promiscuity, violence, and death. Bufwack and Oermann also reveal more active and socially oriented resistance in the depression era songs of Sarah Gunning, the composer of "I Hate The Capitalist System," and Aunt Molly Jackson, who began making up class conscious songs and walking picket lines before she was ten. It was not until the 1950s, however, that women in country music began to gain commercial equality with men. Following Kitty Well's surprising 1952 hit "It Wasn't God Who Made Honky Tonk Angels"--a woman's retort to Hank Thompson's "The Wild Side Of Life--women singers such as Patsy Cline, Loretta Lynn, Dolly Parton, and Tammy Wynette started achieving record sales and stardom rivaling country men. The appeal of the modern country female star, Bufwack and Oermann note, in many ways mirrored general trends in country music. Country tunes of the 1950s and 1960s still focused on subjects of work, family, and religion. But reflecting an audience that was now struggling to come to grips with the realities of urban life and wage labor, the music increasingly dealt with alcoholism, infidelity, and divorce. Reacting to these problems from a distinctly female point of view, country women stepped forward with songs displaying tougher attitudes. Sad songs of betrayal prevailed, but women now would sing also of sexual freedom and nights on the town. And in love songs, women would voice a straightforward demand for relationships based on fair play and an end to double standards. Some of the purest samples of this new toughness came in a string of popular tunes by Loretta Lynn. With a basic hard country sound and a writing style favoring down-to-earth blue collar bluntness, Lynn laid down the law to men in songs such as "Fist City" and "Don't Come Home A-Drinking (With Loving On Your Mind)." With her singles "The Pill" and "One's On The Way," Lynn also became the first popular country singer to publicly advocate for birth control. These attitudes and Lynn's reputation for gearing her shows to women, earned her a legion of devoted, fanatical fans, including a large lesbian following. Although few country music women of the 1950s and 1960s made music as self-consciously for women as Lynn, the emergence of country women superstars put "the woman's perspective" on substantially more equal terms with that of the working man. By 1984 about one-fourth of the top country singles and albums were by women. And today's country and pop charts are overflowing with country women--Reba McEntire, Wynonna Judd, Mary Chapin-Carpenter, Trisha Yearwood, Suzy Bogguss, Kathy Mattea, Patty Loveless, Pam Tillis, and K.T. Oslin, to mention only a few. Most significantly, the commercial appeal of the current generation of country women seems directly linked to a feminist oriented lyric. Lorrie Morgan, for instance, takes clear control of her relationships in "What Part Of No," "Watch Me," and "5 Minutes." Michelle Wright shows off a similar attitude on "Take It Like A Man." And Martina McBride rebels against an abusive husband on "Independence Day." As these examples suggest (and many others could be given), the most progressive and defiant strains of contemporary country music are being created by women. While the politics of country music eludes many popular prejudices and neat categories of left and right, the fundamental conservatism of the message cannot be denied. Country's conservatism, however, comes not from taking a particular stand on particular issues, but in the way it reads and resolves conflict. Country music may be one of the truest forms of popular music in giving voice to the bitter realities of class and the sorry state of male-female relations. But in offering few avenues of escape and rebellion, country music tends to settle struggle in favor of the powers that be. Change in country music comes mostly from individual hard work and sacrifice, luck, and God. The music's vision of community is insular and backward looking. And as a result, failure breeds feelings of self-blame and resignation. Nonetheless, country's stoic acceptance of things as they are cannot be taken as an unqualified endorsement of the status quo. The great strength of country music has been its ability to capture white working class life as it really is and without the projection of false hope. Country music knows you can't always get what you want or what you need no matter how hard you try. In this realistic assessment of limits, the music contradicts capitalist ideals of progress, fairness, and happiness through consumption. Accordingly, throughout most of its commercial history, country music has been dismissed as something beneath and apart from mainstream culture. Fully aware of country music's "negatives," the Nashville music establishment has periodically regroomed the sound and image of the tradition with hopes of winning respectability and crossover appeal. In the 1950s and 1960s, it was the smooth, urbane "Nashville Sound," in the 1970s it was the tasteless pop country of John Denver and Olivia Newton-John, and in the 1980s it was Urban Cowboy role playing. Although all of these trends gave country a temporary commercial boost, hard-core country fans and musicians reacted to each with a purist backlash (bluegrass, the Bakersfield sound, Willie Nelson and Waylon Jennings' "outlaw" movement, neotraditionalism) that eventually brought the market back around to traditional sounds. In the Reagan-Bush-Clinton era, country music has slowly ascended again to mainstream popularity with sounds and images revealing few traces of country's old-time rough edges. This time around country's new audience seems to come from aging white boomers and younger middle-income suburbanites who've tired of classic rock and can't tolerate aggressive youth sounds (metal, hip-hop, alternative rock) or easy listening pop. For these listeners, country supplies a guitar based rock influenced sound, adult subject matter, and yearning for a more simple and decent way of life. Unfortunately in meeting this demand, the music industry has again resorted to formula: muscles in big hats, starched boot cut Wranglers, choreographed sexy moves, and pale, twang-free impersonations of heartbreak. But at the borders of country, in the progressive new voice of women, left-of-center hillbilly folk (Jimmie Dale Gilmore, Tom Russell, and Iris Dement), country rock (Rodney Crowell and Travis Tritt), traditional bluegrass (the Johnson Mountain Boys), and tradition conscious hard country (Dwight Yoakam and Marty Brown), you can still hear the raw emotions and wild and blue themes of a truly populist art form. The "old" story country music has to tell is too real and too rooted to be forgotten. [Sandy Carter was born in Gulfport, Mississippi and grew up in Amarillo, Texas. While attending the University Of Texas at Austin, he became active in the late 60s anti-war, student, and civil rights movements. During the last three decades he has been active in organizing around workplace, community, and mental health issues. Since the early 80s, he has been living in the Bay Area. His writing on music, politics, and popular culture has appeared in the Bay Guardian and The San Francisco Chronicle. "Slippin' & Slidin," his column on music and popular culture, appears monthly in Z Magazine. He currently works as a high school counselor in Novato, California.] ========== _____________________________________________ Portside aims to provide material of interest to people on the left that will help them to interpret the world and to change it. Submit via email: moderator@portside.org Submit via the Web: portside.org/submit Frequently asked questions: portside.org/faq Subscribe: portside.org/subscribe Unsubscribe: portside.org/unsubscribe Account assistance: portside.org/contact Search the archives: portside.org/archive !DSPAM:2676,45da7d0025681792683703! --------------------------------- Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 10:02:03 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Hooper Subject: Re: [stuff-it] FW: Dixie Chicks, part of tradition of progressive country music (fwd) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline All this dixie talk has me thinking: Dixie Witch : http://www.dixiewitch.net/ On 2/20/07, Alan Sondheim wrote: > > > > Just in case you haven't seen these articles - Alan > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 22:53:44 -0800 > From: Michael Gurstein > To: stuff-it@vancouvercommunity.net > Subject: [stuff-it] FW: Dixie Chicks, > part of tradition of progressive country music > > Well worth a read, especially the second article. > > MG > > -----Original Message----- > From: moderator@PORTSIDE.ORG [mailto:moderator@PORTSIDE.ORG] > Sent: February 18, 2007 5:54 PM > To: PORTSIDE@LISTS.PORTSIDE.ORG > Subject: Dixie Chicks, part of tradition of progressive country music > > > Dixie Chicks, part of tradition of progressive country music > > * Dixie Chicks Among Esteemed Outlaws > by Ashley Sayeau (Philadelphia Inquirer) > > * Wild And Blue: The Politics Of Country > By Sandy Carter (Z Magazine) > > ========== > > Dixie Chicks Among Esteemed Outlaws > by Ashley Sayeau > > Philadelphia Inquirer - February 16, 2007 > > http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/editorial/16709871.htm > > On Sunday night at the 49th annual Grammy awards, the > Dixie Chicks took home five awards, including best > album, record and song of the year. > > It was a long road, indeed, for the Chicks, whose > enormous fan base and ticket sales famously plummeted > in 2003 after lead singer Natalie Maines remarked on > the eve of the Iraq war that the group was "ashamed the president of the > United States is from Texas." Within days, radio stations were refusing > to play their music, and fans were demanding refunds. Death threats were > later issued. > > Throughout the ordeal, the group remained admirably unapologetic, > insisting that dissent is (or at least should be) a vital liberty in > America. They further maintained this position in their album Taking the > Long Way (which won the Grammy for best album) and especially in the > song "Not Ready To Make Nice," in which they directly addressed their > critics: "It's too late to make it right/ I probably wouldn't if I > could/ Cause I'm mad as hell/ Can't bring myself to do what it is/ You > think I should." > > Despite the group's successes, the grudge has held, particularly among > the Nashville music establishment. The Country Music Association > completely snubbed the Chicks at its awards ceremony in May. > > Such an affront on the part of country music is not > only cowardly, but also quite antithetical to the > genre's history. For, while country music today is > often equated with pickup trucks, rebel flags, and men > with mullets, it also has a brave and, dare I say, > liberal streak in its closet. > > Take Johnny Cash, for instance. Not only did many of > his most famous lyrics center on "the poor and the > beaten down," including a poignant attack on this > country's treatment of American Indians, but also Cash > was a vocal critic of the Vietnam War, as in his famous > song "Man in Black": "I wear the black in mourning for > the lives that could have been/ Each week we lose a > hundred fine young men." > > And then there is Willie Nelson, who on Valentine's Day > 2006 released a love song about gay cowboys, titled, > "Cowboys Are Frequently, Secretly (Fond of Each > Other)." Perhaps more seriously, he has been an avid > supporter of presidential hopeful Dennis Kucinich, who, > while arguing for universal health care and a swift > withdrawal from Iraq, is probably the furthest left of > any Democratic candidate. > > Women in country music - like the Dixie Chicks - have a > long tradition of being particularly bold in speaking > out against some of the very conventions their record > labels and conservative fan base celebrate. Back in > 1933, the Carter Family, which consisted of A.P. > Carter; his wife, Sara Doughtery Carter; and her > cousin, the groundbreaking guitar player Maybelle > Addington Carter, sang about a young woman who chose to > commit suicide rather than marry. In Sara's sorrowful > croon, we hear her say, "I never will marry/ I'll be no > man's wife/ I expect to live single all the days of my > life." Needless to say, she later divorced A.P. > > Perhaps most memorable are some of Loretta Lynn's > lyrics, particularly from the 1960s and 1970s. Released > in 1966, her song "Dear Uncle Sam" was an early anti- > Vietnam protest song. And though she once feigned > dozing off while listening to feminist advocate Betty > Friedan speak as a fellow guest on The David Frost > Show, Lynn was a pretty controversial women's advocate. > In "I Wanna Be Free," she wrote of the liberating > effect of divorce: "I'm gonna take this chain from > around my finger/ And throw it just as far as I can > sling 'er." She did the same thing for birth control in > "The Pill": "The feelin' good comes easy now/ Since > I've got the pill." > > As daring as some outlaw artists have been, the country > music establishment has often proved even more dogged > in its conservative views. Lynn has purportedly had > more songs banned than any other country music singer. > And Cash, never completely at home in the country music > world, once said that "the very idea of unconventional > or even original ideas ending up on 'country' radio" > was "absurd." No wonder, then, that in his gay cowboy > song, Willie Nelson lamented that "you won't hear this > song on the radio/ Not on your local TV." > > With the November election, particularly with strong > Democratic gains in Virginia and Missouri, Republican politicians may > have to rethink their long-standing Southern strategy. Similarly, with > last Sunday night's awards, country music should embrace the fact that > its greatest assets have never been scared of controversy or doing the > right thing. > > To quote the great Dolly Parton - who has sung a few > feminist, antiwar, and progressive anthems herself - > "You'll never do a whole lot unless you're brave enough > to try." > > [Ashley Sayeau is a freelance writer currently living > in Buffalo, N.Y., was raised in Tennessee, and has > written on women and politics for a variety of > anthologies and publications, including The Nation, > Salon and Dissent.] > > (c) 2007 Philadelphia Inquirer > > ========== > > Wild And Blue: The Politics Of Country > By Sandy Carter > > Z Magazine - September 1994 > > http://zena.secureforum.com/znet/zmag/articles/sept94carter.htm > > Some of the fondest memories of my west Texas childhood > are linked to the lonesome moan of the pedal steel > guitar and the soulful honky tonk voices of Hank > Williams, Lefty Frizzell, and Ernest Tubb. In the > 1950s, as I was entering grade school and gaining some awareness of the > world around me, these sounds served up essential clues to my sense of > time and place. > > A few years later, however, I perceived that some > considered country music inferior to other forms of > popular music. Southern accents, nasal voices, and bad > grammar, I learned, were the most visible signs of this inferiority. So > I became self conscious about my drawl and with some vigilance and > discipline began modifying my twang according to standards I took to be > more enlightened. > > But the full arsenal of Southern stereotypes was not so > easy to escape. In my 20s, as I began living and > working in other parts of the country, I came to > realize that people outside the South, particularly > politically progressive people outside the South, > judged white Southerners and nearly all aspects of > their cultural heritage as backward. And this snobbery > often found its most candid expression in mocking and ridiculing country > music. > > The elitist views that define popular prejudices about > the country tradition greeted the music at its > commercial birth. In the 1920s, when country music > first felt the pressures of commercialization, rural > traditions of all kinds were experiencing tensions and challenges > brought on by industrialization. Country sounds suggesting older and > more settled ways seemed inherently at odds with rapid social and > technological change. The music expressed a longing for stability and > order and deep-seated fears of the temptations of the modern world. At > the same time, the music could not help but reflect hopes of escaping > the hardships associated with traditional rural life. > > Conflicted feelings also derived from the Southerness > of the music. While the music of Stephen Foster and the writings of Mark > Twain fueled romantic notions of the South as an exotic land of > enchantment, the region also evoked images of slavery and the Civil War, > the Scopes monkey trial, and the Klan. Thus for many, country music, > regardless of its subject matter, was nothing more than the sound of > ignorance and racism. Retaining a stubborn self-consciousness of its > white, rural, Southern, working class origins, country music today > continues to attract and repulse listeners by stirring the same opposing > images. Nonetheless, in a span of 70 years, country music has grown from > regional to national and international popularity. And presently, the > music is cresting at a commercial high-water mark justifying marketing > claims that country is now "America's pop music." > > With mass popularity, however, some of the most > distinctive qualities of country music have been > diluted. Listening to the musical styles dominating > country radio, one hears a generic McDonald's styled > product so stripped of "hayseed" connotations that it > virtually erases the line between country and various > forms of easy listening white pop and bland 1970s > styled corporate rock. While harder and more > traditional country sounds have not disappeared, the > market driven industry bias toward an urban-suburban contemporary sound > has certainly muddled the definition and origins of the musical idioms > known as country. > > Like other music forms of our culture, country music is > an amalgam of influences. Its sound, song structure, > and lyrical text reveal a heavy debt to African > American musical styles, particularly blues and gospel. Rhythmically, > country draws most on the dance meters of English and European country > dance tunes. As to lyrics and narrative style, country storytelling has > roots in Southern Protestant sermonizing, barroom banter, front porch > story swapping, and the general character of regional oral traditions. > Other distinctive characteristics relate to the way the music is > performed. Unlike many pop performers, country singers write much of > their material bringing a subjective, direct voice to their performance. > Like blues singers, they aim for intimacy more than technical > sophistication. In the singer's voice and story lay the central appeal > of country music. > > Though country music is a vocal music above all else, > its instrumental sound is unique and immediately > identifiable. It begins with the guitar and is filled > out with fiddle, banjo, mandolin, dobro, bass, pedal > steel guitar, and harmonica. The distinctive country > sound comes from the way the musicians play these > instruments with flat picks, finger picks, bottlenecks, > and bow. In contrast to the smooth, melodic approach of > pop and classical music, country players, again showing > an African American influence, favor a rough-edged > attack with strings popped, scraped, hammered, and > frailed. Mirroring the unadorned vocal sound, > instrumental solos and fills are deliberately > "unrefined." The emphasis is on sounds that > counterpoint the social and emotional realism conveyed > by the singer and the song. Accordingly, country sounds > are harsh, rowdy, romantic, humorous, and rousing. Most > of all, they are mournful. > > Did you ever see a robin weep When leaves begin to die > > That means he's lost the will to live I'm so lonesome I > could cry > > --Hank Williams > > Historically the most dominant and unmistakable quality > of the country sound is sadness. One of the great > stereotypes plaguing country music is the cry-in-the- > beer loser drowning the pain of romantic loss in some > dark tavern. But the heartbreak in country music runs > deeper than cheating, drinking, and divorce. The sad > tale country music has to tell goes back to the > devastation the region suffered during the Civil War, > the loss of rural identity, and the great migration of Southerners to > urban centers in the Midwest and West during the 1940s and 1950s. > Understandably, country music is homesick music, permanently colored by > feelings of longing and lost innocence. > > The loss at the heart of the country song has been > expressed through two divergent impulses. When the > Carter Family and Jimmie Rodgers came to Bristol, > Tennessee in August 1927 to perform before record scout > Ralph Peer and a Victor Talking Machine, they brought > with them distinct bodies of material representing > seemingly contradictory themes and values. In the > Carter Family's huge repertoire of traditional songs > resided the morally decent old-time virtues of work, > family, humility, and Christian fellowship. By > contrast, Rodgers, an ex-railroad brakeman from > Meridian, Mississippi, wrote tunes with roots in blues > and jazz, folk and cowboy songs, work gang hollers and > pop. Though Rodgers wrote his share of songs glorifying > the home and family, his work also celebrated the lives > of hell-raisers, hoboes, wayward lovers, criminals, > rounders, and ramblers. > > Both approaches proved immediately popular. By 1933, > the year of his death from tuberculosis, Jimmie Rodgers > had become country's first crossover success and in the > South his status was near mythic. And by the time the > Carter Family disbanded in 1943, their music was well- > known throughout the United States, as well as parts of > Canada, Mexico, England, Ireland, and Australia. Aside > from establishing the commercial viability of country > music, the breakthroughs of Rodgers and the Carter > Family gave the shared musical culture of the white > South coherence. Though commercialization accelerated > the homogenization of sounds, by documenting the > diversity of local and regional styles it also helped Southerners gain a > fuller sense of their common cultural heritage. The music labeled > "hillbilly" dramatized what they suffered, survived, and left behind. It > offered solace and understanding, realism and escape. But most of all, > it was music that responded to change with a reassertion of tradition. > The Carter Family's religious tunes and sentimental ballads and Jimmie > Rodgers' chronicles of the rambling man, in different ways, mapped the > boundaries of tradition and the dire consequences of its breakdown. > > Because of this emphasis on Southerness and tradition, > country music has long been associated with all that is reactionary. > However, while country music generally expresses a conservative outlook, > the view of country as an exclusively white, male-dominated, right-wing > tradition is unfair and one-dimensional. At no point in its history has > country music expressed a consistent political ideology. Although > performers such as W. Lee O'Daniel, Jimmie Davis, and Roy Acuff have run > for political office and many country musicians have endorsed candidates > and aired opinions in public, the music resists easy ideological > labeling. Every hard- headed patriotic diatribe like "Okie From > Muskogee" can be matched by songs like Waylon Jennings's multicultural, > egalitarian anthem "America" and James Talley's ode to populist > rebellion "Are They Gonna Make Us Outlaws Again?": > > Now there's always been a bottom > > And there's always been a top > > And someone took the orders > > And someone called the shots > > And someone took the beatin', Lord > > And someone got the prize > > Well, that may be the way its been > > But that don't mean its right > > More importantly, since country music has always been a > voice for small farmers, factory hands, day laborers, > the displaced and unemployed, its harsh portraits of > work and everyday life carry an implicit critique of capitalism. Instead > of overt political protest, country songs prefer to deliver social > criticism through poignant descriptions of economic hardship and family > sacrifice. Some of the best examples of this style of protest are Merle > Haggard's "Mama's Hungry Eyes," Dolly Parton's "Coat Of Many Colors," > and Loretta Lynn's "Coal Miner's Daughter." > > As to the issue of race, country music's sentimental > attachment to Dixie is often taken as an endorsement of > white supremacy and slavery. Country music's > glorification of the South, however, derives mostly > from an idealized notion of working the land and the > real life movement of millions off the land during the > years of the Great Depression and World War II. Not surprisingly, > hundreds of country tunes plead the case of the farmer and celebrate the > beauty of Southern landscapes. By contrast, since the birth of the > country music industry in the 1920s, very few country songs have offered > direct commentary on race relations in the South, and certainly no > popular song has advocated a return to the slave system. This doesn't > mean, of course, that white Southerners or the country music industry > are free of racism. Rather, it suggests that the homesickness in country > music is based primarily on the erosion of rural identity. > > Still, it is obvious that "whiteness" is dominant in > country music. Despite the tradition's enormous debt to > African American music and other ethnic music cultures, non-white > performers are still exceedingly rare in country music. When voices of > color have gained popularity in the country field, it has generally been > through songs and styles evidencing only traces of their racial origins. > Nonetheless, in recent decades Mexican-Americans such as Johnny > Rodriguez, Freddy Fender, Tish Hinojosa, and Flaco Jiminez and African > Americans such as Charlie Pride, Stoney Edwards, and Big Al Downing have > won acceptance with country audiences. And occasionally, there are tunes > like Bobby Braddock's "I Believe The South Is Gonna Rise Again" that > break the mold: > > The Jacksons down the road were black like we were > > But our skins were white and theirs was black > > I believe the South's gonna rise again > > But not the way we thought it would back then > > Some of the strongest stereotypes attached to country > music revolve around the social and sexual roles of > women. To many people Tammy Wynette's 1968 hit "Stand > By Your Man" typifies the passive, long suffering > mentality of the unliberated country woman. In truth, > the female perspective in country music is much broader > and far more assertive than this superficial stereotype > can allow. The richest and most authoritative evidence > of this reality can be found in Mary Bufwack and Robert Oermann's > Finding Her Voice: The Saga Of Women In Country Music(Crown Publishers > Inc., New York). This 541 page narrative tracing the lives and music of > country women from the late 19th century up to the present, shows how > country music has encouraged white working class women in their > struggles to survive and resist "economic exploitation, sexual > subjugation, and limited opportunities." > > Exploring the folk origins of country music, Bufwack > and Oermann argue that women were the primary > folklorists for early rural music, memorizing the tunes > and lyrics that provided the basic entertainment for > the family and community. And in their own original > ballads, women expressed sexual fantasies and > discontents in songs loaded with images of romantic > longing, promiscuity, violence, and death. Bufwack and > Oermann also reveal more active and socially oriented resistance in the > depression era songs of Sarah Gunning, the composer of "I Hate The > Capitalist System," and Aunt Molly Jackson, who began making up class > conscious songs and walking picket lines before she was ten. > > It was not until the 1950s, however, that women in > country music began to gain commercial equality with > men. Following Kitty Well's surprising 1952 hit "It > Wasn't God Who Made Honky Tonk Angels"--a woman's > retort to Hank Thompson's "The Wild Side Of Life--women > singers such as Patsy Cline, Loretta Lynn, Dolly > Parton, and Tammy Wynette started achieving record > sales and stardom rivaling country men. The appeal of > the modern country female star, Bufwack and Oermann > note, in many ways mirrored general trends in country > music. Country tunes of the 1950s and 1960s still > focused on subjects of work, family, and religion. But reflecting an > audience that was now struggling to come to grips with the realities of > urban life and wage labor, the music increasingly dealt with alcoholism, > infidelity, and divorce. Reacting to these problems from a distinctly > female point of view, country women stepped forward with songs > displaying tougher attitudes. Sad songs of betrayal prevailed, but women > now would sing also of sexual freedom and nights on the town. And in > love songs, women would voice a straightforward demand for relationships > based on fair play and an end to double standards. > > Some of the purest samples of this new toughness came > in a string of popular tunes by Loretta Lynn. With a > basic hard country sound and a writing style favoring down-to-earth blue > collar bluntness, Lynn laid down the law to men in songs such as "Fist > City" and "Don't Come Home A-Drinking (With Loving On Your Mind)." With > her singles "The Pill" and "One's On The Way," Lynn also became the > first popular country singer to publicly advocate for birth control. > These attitudes and Lynn's reputation for gearing her shows to women, > earned her a legion of devoted, fanatical fans, including a large > lesbian following. > > Although few country music women of the 1950s and 1960s > made music as self-consciously for women as Lynn, the > emergence of country women superstars put "the woman's perspective" on > substantially more equal terms with that of the working man. By 1984 > about one-fourth of the top country singles and albums were by women. > And today's country and pop charts are overflowing with country > women--Reba McEntire, Wynonna Judd, Mary Chapin-Carpenter, Trisha > Yearwood, Suzy Bogguss, Kathy Mattea, Patty Loveless, Pam Tillis, and > K.T. Oslin, to mention only a few. Most significantly, the commercial > appeal of the current generation of country women seems directly linked > to a feminist oriented lyric. Lorrie Morgan, for instance, takes clear > control of her relationships in "What Part Of No," "Watch Me," and "5 > Minutes." Michelle Wright shows off a similar attitude on "Take It Like > A Man." And Martina McBride rebels against an abusive husband on > "Independence Day." As these examples suggest (and many others could be > given), the most progressive and defiant strains of contemporary country > music are being created by women. > > While the politics of country music eludes many popular prejudices and > neat categories of left and right, the fundamental conservatism of the > message cannot be denied. Country's conservatism, however, comes not > from taking a particular stand on particular issues, but in the way it > reads and resolves conflict. Country music may be one of the truest > forms of popular music in giving voice to the bitter realities of class > and the sorry state of male-female relations. But in offering few > avenues of escape and rebellion, country music tends to settle struggle > in favor of the powers that be. Change in country music comes mostly > from individual hard work and sacrifice, luck, and God. The music's > vision of community is insular and backward looking. And as a result, > failure breeds feelings of self-blame and resignation. > > Nonetheless, country's stoic acceptance of things as > they are cannot be taken as an unqualified endorsement > of the status quo. The great strength of country music > has been its ability to capture white working class > life as it really is and without the projection of > false hope. Country music knows you can't always get > what you want or what you need no matter how hard you > try. In this realistic assessment of limits, the music contradicts > capitalist ideals of progress, fairness, and happiness through > consumption. Accordingly, throughout most of its commercial history, > country music has been dismissed as something beneath and apart from > mainstream culture. > > Fully aware of country music's "negatives," the > Nashville music establishment has periodically > regroomed the sound and image of the tradition with > hopes of winning respectability and crossover appeal. > In the 1950s and 1960s, it was the smooth, urbane > "Nashville Sound," in the 1970s it was the tasteless > pop country of John Denver and Olivia Newton-John, and > in the 1980s it was Urban Cowboy role playing. Although > all of these trends gave country a temporary commercial > boost, hard-core country fans and musicians reacted to > each with a purist backlash (bluegrass, the Bakersfield > sound, Willie Nelson and Waylon Jennings' "outlaw" > movement, neotraditionalism) that eventually brought > the market back around to traditional sounds. > > In the Reagan-Bush-Clinton era, country music has > slowly ascended again to mainstream popularity with > sounds and images revealing few traces of country's > old-time rough edges. This time around country's new > audience seems to come from aging white boomers and > younger middle-income suburbanites who've tired of > classic rock and can't tolerate aggressive youth sounds > (metal, hip-hop, alternative rock) or easy listening > pop. For these listeners, country supplies a guitar > based rock influenced sound, adult subject matter, and > yearning for a more simple and decent way of life. > > Unfortunately in meeting this demand, the music > industry has again resorted to formula: muscles in big > hats, starched boot cut Wranglers, choreographed sexy > moves, and pale, twang-free impersonations of > heartbreak. But at the borders of country, in the > progressive new voice of women, left-of-center > hillbilly folk (Jimmie Dale Gilmore, Tom Russell, and > Iris Dement), country rock (Rodney Crowell and Travis > Tritt), traditional bluegrass (the Johnson Mountain > Boys), and tradition conscious hard country (Dwight > Yoakam and Marty Brown), you can still hear the raw > emotions and wild and blue themes of a truly populist > art form. The "old" story country music has to tell is > too real and too rooted to be forgotten. > > [Sandy Carter was born in Gulfport, Mississippi and > grew up in Amarillo, Texas. While attending the > University Of Texas at Austin, he became active in the > late 60s anti-war, student, and civil rights movements. > During the last three decades he has been active in > organizing around workplace, community, and mental > health issues. Since the early 80s, he has been living > in the Bay Area. His writing on music, politics, and > popular culture has appeared in the Bay Guardian and > The San Francisco Chronicle. "Slippin' & Slidin," his > column on music and popular culture, appears monthly in > Z Magazine. He currently works as a high school > counselor in Novato, California.] > > ========== > > _____________________________________________ > > Portside aims to provide material of interest > to people on the left that will help them to > interpret the world and to change it. > > Submit via email: moderator@portside.org > Submit via the Web: portside.org/submit > Frequently asked questions: portside.org/faq > Subscribe: portside.org/subscribe > Unsubscribe: portside.org/unsubscribe > Account assistance: portside.org/contact > Search the archives: portside.org/archive > > > !DSPAM:2676,45da7d0025681792683703! > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 10:41:45 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas savage Subject: Re: Beware of yourselves! Beware of each other! In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Which may explain why the only people who follow poets are, surprise, surprise, other poets. Nicholas Karavatos wrote: Stay away from poets. The erring follow them. Qur’an 26:224 (Pickthal) And the Poets, - It is those straying in Evil, who follow them: Qur’an 26:224 (Yusuf Ali) And as to the poets, those who go astray follow them. Qur’an 26:224 (Shakir) As for the poets, they are followed only by the strayers. Qur’an 26:224 (Khalifa) WaalshshuAAarao yattabiAAuhumu alghawoona _________________________________________________________________ Find what you need at prices you’ll love. Compare products and save at MSN® Shopping. http://shopping.msn.com/default/shp/?ptnrid=37,ptnrdata=24102&tcode=T001MSN20A0701 --------------------------------- Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 13:44:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Kelleher Subject: Literary Buffalo E-Newsletter 2.20.07 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable LITERARY BUFFALO 2.20.07-2.25.07 ANNOUNCEMENT Just Buffalo's timed writing group, which meets Fridays at Starbuck's Chipp= ewa is cancelled for the next two weeks. It will resume March 9. READINGS THIS WEEK 2.21 EXHIBIT X PRESENTS DAVE KRESS Fiction Reading Wednesday, February 21, 8 p.m. Hallwalls at The Church, 341 Delaware Avenue, Buffalo, NY DAVE KRESS is the author of two works of fiction: Counting Zero, a novel, a= nd Martians, a creature. A new novel, Glorified-or-Thermometers of God, wi= ll be published in 2007. He is an Assistant Professor of English at the Uni= versity of Maine, Orono, where he teaches creative writing and contemporary= literature. & THE WRITE TOUCH WRITERS PRESENTS Presentation, Workshop and Critique of submitted work Moderator: Author -- Helene Lee Wednesday, February 21, at 6:30 p.m. Lockport Public Library, 23 East Ave. All writers are welcome, for more information - 439-4958 -- leeroselee=40aol.com 433-7677 -- DARKCIRCLEXXXX=40aol.com 2.23 POETICS PLUS AT UB PRESENTS Miles Champion Poetry Reading Friday, February 23, 8 p.m. Rust Belt Books, 202 Allen St., Buffalo Miles Champion's books include, Three Bell Zero (2000), Facture (1999), Com= positional Bonbons Placate (1996), and Sore Models (1995). Born in England= , he now works in New York City. JUST BUFFALO WRITING WORKSHOPS All workshops take place in Just Buffalo's Workshop/Conference Room At the historic Market Arcade, 617 Main St., First Floor -- right across fr= om Shea's. The Market Arcade is climate-controlled and has a security guard= on duty at all times. To get here: Take the train to the 'Theatre' stop and walk, or park and enter on Washing= ton Street. Free parking on Washington Street evenings and weekends. Two-do= llar parking in fenced, guarded, M & T lot on Washington. Visit our website= for detailed descriptions, instructor bios, and to register online. =22There Are 3 Sides To Every Story....=22 A Creative Nonfiction Writing Workshop Instructor: Alexis De Veaux 4 Saturdays, 10 a.m. - 12 p.m. March 3, April 7, May 5, May 19 =24100, =2480 for members The Tao of Writing the Short Story A Fiction Writing Workshop Instructor: Ralph Wahlstrom 2 Saturdays: March 24 and 31 10 a.m. - 2 p.m. with a break for lunch. Market Arcade Building, 617 Main St., First Floor. =24100, =2480 for members RECURRING LITERARY EVENTS JUST BUFFALO WRITER'S CRITIQUE GROUP Members of Just Buffalo are welcome to attend a free, bi-monthly writer cri= tique group in CEPA's Flux Gallery on the first floor of the historic Marke= t Arcade Building across the street from Shea's. Group meets 1st and 3rd We= dnesday at 7 p.m. Call Just Buffalo for details. JUST BUFFALO TIMED WRITING GROUP A writing practice group meets every FRIDAY at noon at Starbucks Coffee on = Elmwood and Chippewa. Writing practice is based on Natalie Goldberg's sugge= sted exercises in Writing Down The Bones. Writers in all genres, fiction an= d non-fiction welcome. There is no charge. Contact Trudy for info: Trudett= a=40aol.com. WESTERN NEW YORK ROMANCE WRITERS group meets the third Wednesday of every m= onth at St. Joseph Hospital community room at 11a.m. Address: 2605 Harlem R= oad, Cheektowaga, NY 14225. For details go to www.wnyrw.org. YOUNG WRITERS CONTEST AT BUFFALO NEWS =22Calling all writers: a NeXt essay contest=E2=80=A8 A question for NeXt readers: What do you see as the greatest challenge faci= ng your generation? =E2=80=A8 NeXt is holding its first-ever essay contest asking high school students to= tell us what issue defines their generation. The essay should be an origin= al, unpublished essay of 500 to 700 words. The winner will receive a cash p= rize of =2475 and the winning essay will be published in NeXt. Finalists wi= ll receive 25 each.=E2=80=A8 Essays must be typed and submitted by mail to: NeXt Essay Contest, Buffalo = News, P.O. Box 100, Buffalo N.Y. 14240. Include your name, age, school, hom= e mailing address and telephone number. The deadline is March 30. The conte= st is open to high school students in the eight counties of Western New Yor= k zip code) JUST BUFFALO MEMBERSHIP RAFFLE Visit the literary city of your dreams: -Joyce's Dublin -Paris' Left Bank -Dante's Florence -Shakespeare's London -Harlem Renaissance NYC -The Beats' San Francisco -Anywhere Continental flies.* Now through May 10, 2007 your membership support of Just Buffalo Literary C= enter includes the chance to win the literary trip of a lifetime: Package (valued at =245,000) includes: -Two round-trip tickets to one of the great literary cities on Continental = Airlines -=241500 towards hotel and accommodations -=24500 in spending money One ticket (=2435) =3D Just Buffalo Individual Membership Two tickets (=2460) =3D Just Buffalo Family Membership Three tickets (=24100) =3D Just Buffalo Friend Membership Purchase as many memberships as you like. Give them to whomever you choose = as a gift (or give someone else the membership and keep the lottery ticket = to yourself=21). Only 1000 chances will be sold. Raffle tickets with Just B= uffalo membership make great gifts=21 Drawing will be held the second week = of May, 2007. Call 716.832.5400 for more info. * Raffle ticket purchases are not tax-deductible. If you want your membersh= ip to put you in the =22literary trip of a lifetime=22 raffle, please write= =22raffle membership=22 in the =22payment for=22 cell on the Paypal form. = You will automatically be entered in the raffle, but your membership will n= ot be tax-deductible. If you prefer not to be in the raffle and want tax-de= ductible status, then please write =22non-raffle member=22 in the =22paymen= t for=22 cell. JOIN JUST BUFFALO ONLINE=21=21=21 If you would like to join Just Buffalo, or simply make a massive personal d= onation, you can do so online using your credit card. We have recently add= ed the ability to join online by paying with a credit card through PayPal. = Simply click on the membership level at which you would like to join, log = in (or create a PayPal account using your Visa/Amex/Mastercard/Discover), a= nd voil=C3=A1, you will find yourself in literary heaven. For more info, o= r to join now, go to our website: http://www.justbuffalo.org/membership/index.shtml UNSUBSCRIBE If you would like to unsubscribe from this list, just say so and you will b= e immediately removed. _______________________________ Michael Kelleher Artistic Director Just Buffalo Literary Center Market Arcade 617 Main St., Ste. 202A Buffalo, NY 14203 716.832.5400 716.270.0184 (fax) www.justbuffalo.org mjk=40justbuffalo.org LITERARY BUFFALO 2.20.07-2.25.07 ANNOUNCEMENT Just Buffalo's timed writing group, which meets Fridays at Starbuck's Chipp= ewa is cancelled for the next two weeks. It will resume March 9. READINGS THIS WEEK 2.21 EXHIBIT X PRESENTS DAVE KRESS Fiction Reading Wednesday, February 21, 8 p.m. Hallwalls at The Church, 341 Delaware Avenue, Buffalo, NY DAVE KRESS is the author of two works of fiction: Counting Zero, a novel, a= nd Martians, a creature. A new novel, Glorified-or-Thermometers of God, wi= ll be published in 2007. He is an Assistant Professor of English at the Uni= versity of Maine, Orono, where he teaches creative writing and contemporary= literature. 2.23 Poetics Plus at UB Miles Champion Poetry Reading Friday, February 23, 8 p.m. Rust Belt Books, 202 Allen St., Buffalo Miles Champion's books include, Three Bell Zero (2000), Facture (1999), Com= positional Bonbons Placate (1996), and Sore Models (1995). Born in England= , he now works in New York City. RECURRING LITERARY EVENTS JUST BUFFALO WRITER'S CRITIQUE GROUP Members of Just Buffalo are welcome to attend a free, bi-monthly writer cri= tique group in CEPA's Flux Gallery on the first floor of the historic Marke= t Arcade Building across the street from Shea's. Group meets 1st and 3rd We= dnesday at 7 p.m. Call Just Buffalo for details. JUST BUFFALO TIMED WRITING GROUP A writing practice group meets every FRIDAY at noon at Starbucks Coffee on = Elmwood and Chippewa. Writing practice is based on Natalie Goldberg's sugge= sted exercises in Writing Down The Bones. Writers in all genres, fiction an= d non-fiction welcome. There is no charge. Contact Trudy for info: Trudett= a=40aol.com. WESTERN NEW YORK ROMANCE WRITERS group meets the third Wednesday of every m= onth at St. Joseph Hospital community room at 11a.m. Address: 2605 Harlem R= oad, Cheektowaga, NY 14225. For details go to www.wnyrw.org. JUST BUFFALO MEMBERSHIP RAFFLE Visit the literary city of your dreams: -Joyce's Dublin -Paris' Left Bank -Dante's Florence -Shakespeare's London -Harlem Renaissance NYC -The Beats' San Francisco -Anywhere Continental flies.* Now through May 10, 2007 your membership support of Just Buffalo Literary C= enter includes the chance to win the literary trip of a lifetime: Package (valued at =245,000) includes: -Two round-trip tickets to one of the great literary cities on Continental = Airlines -=241500 towards hotel and accommodations -=24500 in spending money One ticket (=2435) =3D Just Buffalo Individual Membership Two tickets (=2460) =3D Just Buffalo Family Membership Three tickets (=24100) =3D Just Buffalo Friend Membership Purchase as many memberships as you like. Give them to whomever you choose = as a gift (or give someone else the membership and keep the lottery ticket = to yourself=21). Only 1000 chances will be sold. Raffle tickets with Just B= uffalo membership make great gifts=21 Drawing will be held the second week = of May, 2007. Call 716.832.5400 for more info. * Raffle ticket purchases are not tax-deductible. If you want your membersh= ip to put you in the =22literary trip of a lifetime=22 raffle, please write= =22raffle membership=22 in the =22payment for=22 cell on the Paypal form. = You will automatically be entered in the raffle, but your membership will n= ot be tax-deductible. If you prefer not to be in the raffle and want tax-de= ductible status, then please write =22non-raffle member=22 in the =22paymen= t for=22 cell. JOIN JUST BUFFALO ONLINE=21=21=21 If you would like to join Just Buffalo, or simply make a massive personal d= onation, you can do so online using your credit card. We have recently add= ed the ability to join online by paying with a credit card through PayPal. = Simply click on the membership level at which you would like to join, log = in (or create a PayPal account using your Visa/Amex/Mastercard/Discover), a= nd voil=C3=A1, you will find yourself in literary heaven. For more info, o= r to join now, go to our website: http://www.justbuffalo.org/membership/index.shtml UNSUBSCRIBE If you would like to unsubscribe from this list, just say so and you will b= e immediately removed. _______________________________ Michael Kelleher Artistic Director Just Buffalo Literary Center Market Arcade 617 Main St., Ste. 202A Buffalo, NY 14203 716.832.5400 716.270.0184 (fax) www.justbuffalo.org mjk=40justbuffalo.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 10:58:40 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amy king Subject: FWD on behalf of a friend.... In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Greetings, Kill Poet is a small indie publisher and poetry journal based in Los Angeles. This is our very first quarterly newsletter. This has information on our new chapbook contest, latest issue information, a documentary update and other goodies. Our website is www.killpoet.com. Our myspace is www.myspace.com/killpoet. Be sure to swing by and say hi after you read the updates... *Were now accepting poetry submissions for Kill Poet, issue #02. For complete guidelines please visit www.killpoet.com/about. Were proud to introduce Joel Strong as our guest editor for this issue. Get those submissions in before our deadline on March 15th. *Kill Poet in association with Lucent Films has recently shot the full-length documentary, The State of Poem, a spotlight on the evolving face of contemporary poetry across America. The film covers 30 states, 50 poets and includes music by John Lurie, Porches on the Autobahn, and several additional musicians and live bands. Keep an eye out for the Fall 2007 release. *Weve succumbed to the poetry contest pressure and decided to run one ourselves, but unlike those other chumps, we wont rip you off. Were looking to publish two to three more chapbooks of 20-30 pages in length. All you need to do is send your manuscript (20-30 pgs./PDF \n\nonly) to chapcontest@killpoet.com and send us $5.00 via paypal to paypal@killpoet.com (reading fee). The deadline is May 1st and the winners will be announced June 1st. Winners will receive $50.00 and ten printed copies. We will then complete a print run of 300 copies and pimp the hell out of it. It's only five bucks, what do you have to lose? \n\n*Be sure to swing by and read Kill Poet, issue #01, still up, still free, and still packed with the poets your professor warned you about. Read it here: www.killpoet.com/issue \n\n*Alveraz Ricardez has a new chapbook, Mosquito available now: The aptly named Mosquito draws blood from the twisted and hopelessly futile. From a deranged man trapped with wild tribesmen to a sultry redwood coveting her naked man-lover. Alveraz has whittled a deviant fervency here that borders on neurotic. This poetry is buoyant, original and alive.  Rebecca Malcovati, Poet Laureate & Associate Professor. Buy Mosquito now for only five bucks at www.killpoet.com/books \n\n*We also published our first anthology, on the inside, featuring: Brad Burjan, Appelquist, William J. Brazier Jr., Joel Strong, Jason Ryberg, Don Cohlman, Dylan Macturk, Jason Neese and Luc Simonic. On sale now for only two bucks at www.killpoet.com/books",1] ); //--> only) to chapcontest@killpoet.com and send us $5.00 via paypal to paypal@killpoet.com (reading fee). The deadline is May 1st and the winners will be announced June 1st. Winners will receive $50.00 and ten printed copies. We will then complete a print run of 300 copies and pimp the hell out of it. It's only five bucks, what do you have to lose? *Be sure to swing by and read Kill Poet, issue #01, still up, still free, and still packed with the poets your professor warned you about. Read it here: www.killpoet.com/issue *Alveraz Ricardez has a new chapbook, Mosquito available now: The aptly named Mosquito draws blood from the twisted and hopelessly futile. From a deranged man trapped with wild tribesmen to a sultry redwood coveting her naked man-lover. Alveraz has whittled a deviant fervency here that borders on neurotic. This poetry is buoyant, original and alive.  Rebecca Malcovati, Poet Laureate & Associate Professor. Buy Mosquito now for only five bucks at www.killpoet.com/books *We also published our first anthology, on the inside, featuring: Brad Burjan, Appelquist, William J. Brazier Jr., Joel Strong, Jason Ryberg, Don Cohlman, Dylan Macturk, Jason Neese and Luc Simonic. On sale now for only two bucks at www.killpoet.com/books \n\n*Want to support our free journal? Please visit www.killpoet.com/subscribe. Thanks for your support!\n \n \n\nMax Seger\n\n Kill Poet Press & Journal\n\n www.killpoet.com\n \n\nKP is always spam-free and will never send a newsletter more than once a quarter. If youd like to be removed simply reply with remove in the subject line. But be warned, you will regret the day you turned your back on true independent poetry. \n \n\n luke simonich\n \n\nevery sense llc\n\n 40 w. littleton blvd. #210-120\n\n littleton, CO 80120\n \n\n P: 303 325 5522 F: 303 325 5628 E: everysense@gmail.com\n \n \n \n \n\n \n",0] ); //--> . *Want to support our free journal? Please visit www.killpoet.com/subscribe. Thanks for your support! Max Seger Kill Poet Press & Journal www.killpoet.com KP is always spam-free and will never send a newsletter more than once a quarter. If youd like to be removed simply reply with remove in the subject line. But be warned, you will regret the day you turned your back on true independent poetry. --------------------------------- We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 11:27:22 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: Jill Magi with Jonny Farrow at SPT this Fri 2/23 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Small Press Traffic is pleased to present Friday, February 23, at 7:30 Jill Magi & Jonny Farrow Jill Magi and Jonny Farrow present: Has anybody seen my social memory?? An evening investigating the inscribed and incorporated aspects of remembering -- sound, video, writing, and images that are personal? and civic responses to place, history, and the body. Jill Magi (poet and visual artist) and Jonny Farrow (sound artist and musician) will perform collaborative works from SLOT / The Exhibitionary Complex, a work-in-progress of sound and language landscapes in an era of museums and memorials. Jill will also present visual work and writing from Threads (Futurepoem 2007), a book project that explores the fused concerns of family, storytelling, silence, history, and the book itself. About Jill Magi's Threads, Ammiel Alcalay writes, "Inflection implicates us in family language we hardly understand, in old country we are also responsible for destroying and recreating in a new world and word order whose mapping remains the task at hand. These Threads work between the telling of a story and history to inhabit such burdens of belated homecoming that stay the legacy of conquest." $5-10 sliding scale, free to current SPT members & CCA community Small Press Traffic events are presented in CCA's Timken Lecture Hall 1111--8th Street, San Francisco _________________________________________________________________ http://homepage.msn.com/zune?icid=hmetagline ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 15:49:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Devaney Subject: Devaney on Bernstein's Girly Man MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "So what do you do when the most adamant antiformalist poet in America writes a book using the tried-and-true forms?" The question is from my review of Charles Bernstein's collection "Girly Man," published in this week's Sunday Philadelphia Inquirer (2/18). http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/editorial/16722868.htm Thomas Devaney ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 16:54:22 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: Re: [stuff-it] FW: Dixie Chicks, part of tradition of progressive country music In-Reply-To: <143032.78621.qm@web43125.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I've been a really big country fan--a music fan of all sorts----since a child. Country from the very earliest recordings to a number of ctonemporar musicians. A guy who has gone out on some more controversial limbs than the Dixie Chicks is the great steve Earle. Very early during the the triple War on Poverty-Drugs-Terrorism he shcoked a lot of people with "Ballad of John Lind"--the accused "American Taliban". Earle is in the classic mold of the country singers--drug addicition, alcoholism, prison time, redemptions of his own finding, controversial stands. The variety of genres with in country is very very wide--one of my favorites is "Psycho-country", some of the most disturbing songs recorded, having their orgins in the old ballads of tragedy, murder, betrayal which came over from the British Isles. (The first fiddle was brought over by a man named, like Johnny Rotten, John Lydon, in the 17th century.) The original Feminist singer--Lorretta Lynn's great inspsirtion--was Kitty Wells, recording outpsoen songs in the Fifties. Coutry music has handled about every dark side of human nature one can tink of or think up--the flip side of the powerful gospel sining many singers expereince gorwing up and which will influemce them to the end, even a hard core determined sinner like jerry Lee Lewis started off at a minstry school--expleed for playing boogie woogie music during the services--couldn't help himself. (His cousin is Jimmy Swaggart and his first wife was a second cousin, 13 when they amarried--he was on his second marriage and 18.) It's always saddned me how much great music and some of the greatest musicians an singers and song writers in american history--that people miss with their prejudices against country for reasons they would find contemptible in others if they were prejudiced against musics on the basis of class, regional background, accents and the like. Country and r & b coming togetehr to make the early rock and roll and rockaabilly changed the nation for good and opened the door to lot of the achievments of the various progressive movements of the times. Yes, a lot of country can be jingositic to say the least, but the hard core country is one of the great american musics with Jazz and blues, R & B and Hip Hop Hard Core etc--you can find country music in Conjunto for example and mixed with other forms of Latin Music--and lot of country influence i reggae, too--esp with buildingoff of thelyrics and melodies by DJs and Toasters--and in some Dub pieces--a friend who went to Reaggae Sunsplash one year told me the biggest hit of the events was Skeeter Davis--("I Forgot More Than You'll Ever Know (about him)""The End of the World"). There have been tons of Reaggae country covers-- And wa a continual exhcnage back and fort between coutnry and soul music in the Sixties and early Seveneties. Freddy fender is and Immortal God--the first Lartin and Indian mixed Superstar--AmericanIndian Marvin Rainwater had hits in the fifties--when I was married into the Mowack tribe via m first wife --(is a matriarchal society)--countr was what everybody listened to al the time. No need to mention all the country rock musicians of last almost fourty years now--or great singer/songwriters like Townes van Zandt. One of the greatest musical experiences i have had was t o see/hear live two of my musical gods on consecutive nights--George Jones outdoors in a pasture setting at a county Fair--and next night Fela Ransome Kuti from Nigeria in downtown Milwaukee. Geroge Jones is kind of the country male equivalent i singing of Oum Kalsoum, one of the great singers of the world in their musics. So it's always made me sad people miss so much with the easy prejudices against the music--based on their stereotypes of the people. Other fans of country wil bring this up from time to time. Some of the great country covers have been done by Social Distortion--"Ring of fire" and "Makin Believe" esp. Listening to really early country on Harry Smith's classic compilation of Anthology of American Folk Music and early Johnny paycheck--"Pardon Me, I've Got Someone to Kill" and the heartbreakin' "Apt #9" made famous by Tammy Wynette. In the immortal lines from the George Jones song--"Time Don't Mean a Thing To Me (I've got Life to Go")(life in an East Texas Prison--song inspired by prisoner who came up and spoke to George after a show there--)-- Check out Lucinda Williams for some truly great songwriting and music-- >From: Eric Dickey >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: [stuff-it] FW: Dixie Chicks, part of tradition of progressive >country music (fwd) >Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 09:47:50 -0800 > >I really appreciated reading the article on country music. Although I >don't think of myself as a big fan of country music, I do appreciate its >place. Back in the 1990s, I worked with some folks who were ardent country >music fans. I realized then that country music is one of the last places >for philosophical thought and reflection by folks who generally shun such >intellectualism. In a sense, it's the last vestige for philosophical >thought for many common, working class Americans. > > Some other great contributors to the genre, Ray Charles was country, so >were the Grateful Dead, as is Neil Young, Tom Waits, and many others. >These are folks who evade compartmentalization and who employ many genres >into their art, including country. Even Wyclef Jean incorporates country >into his music. > > > Hopefully, like many posts I add to this list, this one will also be >shot down. > > the one and only, > > Eric Wayne Dickey > > > >Alan Sondheim wrote: > > >Just in case you haven't seen these articles - Alan > > > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 22:53:44 -0800 >From: Michael Gurstein >To: stuff-it@vancouvercommunity.net >Subject: [stuff-it] FW: Dixie Chicks, >part of tradition of progressive country music > >Well worth a read, especially the second article. > >MG > >-----Original Message----- >From: moderator@PORTSIDE.ORG [mailto:moderator@PORTSIDE.ORG] >Sent: February 18, 2007 5:54 PM >To: PORTSIDE@LISTS.PORTSIDE.ORG >Subject: Dixie Chicks, part of tradition of progressive country music > > >Dixie Chicks, part of tradition of progressive country music > >* Dixie Chicks Among Esteemed Outlaws >by Ashley Sayeau (Philadelphia Inquirer) > >* Wild And Blue: The Politics Of Country >By Sandy Carter (Z Magazine) > >========== > >Dixie Chicks Among Esteemed Outlaws >by Ashley Sayeau > >Philadelphia Inquirer - February 16, 2007 > >http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/editorial/16709871.htm > >On Sunday night at the 49th annual Grammy awards, the >Dixie Chicks took home five awards, including best >album, record and song of the year. > >It was a long road, indeed, for the Chicks, whose >enormous fan base and ticket sales famously plummeted >in 2003 after lead singer Natalie Maines remarked on >the eve of the Iraq war that the group was "ashamed the president of the >United States is from Texas." Within days, radio stations were refusing >to play their music, and fans were demanding refunds. Death threats were >later issued. > >Throughout the ordeal, the group remained admirably unapologetic, >insisting that dissent is (or at least should be) a vital liberty in >America. They further maintained this position in their album Taking the >Long Way (which won the Grammy for best album) and especially in the >song "Not Ready To Make Nice," in which they directly addressed their >critics: "It's too late to make it right/ I probably wouldn't if I >could/ Cause I'm mad as hell/ Can't bring myself to do what it is/ You >think I should." > >Despite the group's successes, the grudge has held, particularly among >the Nashville music establishment. The Country Music Association >completely snubbed the Chicks at its awards ceremony in May. > >Such an affront on the part of country music is not >only cowardly, but also quite antithetical to the >genre's history. For, while country music today is >often equated with pickup trucks, rebel flags, and men >with mullets, it also has a brave and, dare I say, >liberal streak in its closet. > >Take Johnny Cash, for instance. Not only did many of >his most famous lyrics center on "the poor and the >beaten down," including a poignant attack on this >country's treatment of American Indians, but also Cash >was a vocal critic of the Vietnam War, as in his famous >song "Man in Black": "I wear the black in mourning for >the lives that could have been/ Each week we lose a >hundred fine young men." > >And then there is Willie Nelson, who on Valentine's Day >2006 released a love song about gay cowboys, titled, >"Cowboys Are Frequently, Secretly (Fond of Each >Other)." Perhaps more seriously, he has been an avid >supporter of presidential hopeful Dennis Kucinich, who, >while arguing for universal health care and a swift >withdrawal from Iraq, is probably the furthest left of >any Democratic candidate. > >Women in country music - like the Dixie Chicks - have a >long tradition of being particularly bold in speaking >out against some of the very conventions their record >labels and conservative fan base celebrate. Back in >1933, the Carter Family, which consisted of A.P. >Carter; his wife, Sara Doughtery Carter; and her >cousin, the groundbreaking guitar player Maybelle >Addington Carter, sang about a young woman who chose to >commit suicide rather than marry. In Sara's sorrowful >croon, we hear her say, "I never will marry/ I'll be no >man's wife/ I expect to live single all the days of my >life." Needless to say, she later divorced A.P. > >Perhaps most memorable are some of Loretta Lynn's >lyrics, particularly from the 1960s and 1970s. Released >in 1966, her song "Dear Uncle Sam" was an early anti- >Vietnam protest song. And though she once feigned >dozing off while listening to feminist advocate Betty >Friedan speak as a fellow guest on The David Frost >Show, Lynn was a pretty controversial women's advocate. >In "I Wanna Be Free," she wrote of the liberating >effect of divorce: "I'm gonna take this chain from >around my finger/ And throw it just as far as I can >sling 'er." She did the same thing for birth control in >"The Pill": "The feelin' good comes easy now/ Since >I've got the pill." > >As daring as some outlaw artists have been, the country >music establishment has often proved even more dogged >in its conservative views. Lynn has purportedly had >more songs banned than any other country music singer. >And Cash, never completely at home in the country music >world, once said that "the very idea of unconventional >or even original ideas ending up on 'country' radio" >was "absurd." No wonder, then, that in his gay cowboy >song, Willie Nelson lamented that "you won't hear this >song on the radio/ Not on your local TV." > >With the November election, particularly with strong >Democratic gains in Virginia and Missouri, Republican politicians may >have to rethink their long-standing Southern strategy. Similarly, with >last Sunday night's awards, country music should embrace the fact that >its greatest assets have never been scared of controversy or doing the >right thing. > >To quote the great Dolly Parton - who has sung a few >feminist, antiwar, and progressive anthems herself - >"You'll never do a whole lot unless you're brave enough >to try." > >[Ashley Sayeau is a freelance writer currently living >in Buffalo, N.Y., was raised in Tennessee, and has >written on women and politics for a variety of >anthologies and publications, including The Nation, >Salon and Dissent.] > >© 2007 Philadelphia Inquirer > >========== > >Wild And Blue: The Politics Of Country >By Sandy Carter > >Z Magazine - September 1994 > >http://zena.secureforum.com/znet/zmag/articles/sept94carter.htm > >Some of the fondest memories of my west Texas childhood >are linked to the lonesome moan of the pedal steel >guitar and the soulful honky tonk voices of Hank >Williams, Lefty Frizzell, and Ernest Tubb. In the >1950s, as I was entering grade school and gaining some awareness of the >world around me, these sounds served up essential clues to my sense of >time and place. > >A few years later, however, I perceived that some >considered country music inferior to other forms of >popular music. Southern accents, nasal voices, and bad >grammar, I learned, were the most visible signs of this inferiority. So >I became self conscious about my drawl and with some vigilance and >discipline began modifying my twang according to standards I took to be >more enlightened. > >But the full arsenal of Southern stereotypes was not so >easy to escape. In my 20s, as I began living and >working in other parts of the country, I came to >realize that people outside the South, particularly >politically progressive people outside the South, >judged white Southerners and nearly all aspects of >their cultural heritage as backward. And this snobbery >often found its most candid expression in mocking and ridiculing country >music. > >The elitist views that define popular prejudices about >the country tradition greeted the music at its >commercial birth. In the 1920s, when country music >first felt the pressures of commercialization, rural >traditions of all kinds were experiencing tensions and challenges >brought on by industrialization. Country sounds suggesting older and >more settled ways seemed inherently at odds with rapid social and >technological change. The music expressed a longing for stability and >order and deep-seated fears of the temptations of the modern world. At >the same time, the music could not help but reflect hopes of escaping >the hardships associated with traditional rural life. > >Conflicted feelings also derived from the Southerness >of the music. While the music of Stephen Foster and the writings of Mark >Twain fueled romantic notions of the South as an exotic land of >enchantment, the region also evoked images of slavery and the Civil War, >the Scopes monkey trial, and the Klan. Thus for many, country music, >regardless of its subject matter, was nothing more than the sound of >ignorance and racism. Retaining a stubborn self-consciousness of its >white, rural, Southern, working class origins, country music today >continues to attract and repulse listeners by stirring the same opposing >images. Nonetheless, in a span of 70 years, country music has grown from >regional to national and international popularity. And presently, the >music is cresting at a commercial high-water mark justifying marketing >claims that country is now "America's pop music." > >With mass popularity, however, some of the most >distinctive qualities of country music have been >diluted. Listening to the musical styles dominating >country radio, one hears a generic McDonald's styled >product so stripped of "hayseed" connotations that it >virtually erases the line between country and various >forms of easy listening white pop and bland 1970s >styled corporate rock. While harder and more >traditional country sounds have not disappeared, the >market driven industry bias toward an urban-suburban contemporary sound >has certainly muddled the definition and origins of the musical idioms >known as country. > >Like other music forms of our culture, country music is >an amalgam of influences. Its sound, song structure, >and lyrical text reveal a heavy debt to African >American musical styles, particularly blues and gospel. Rhythmically, >country draws most on the dance meters of English and European country >dance tunes. As to lyrics and narrative style, country storytelling has >roots in Southern Protestant sermonizing, barroom banter, front porch >story swapping, and the general character of regional oral traditions. >Other distinctive characteristics relate to the way the music is >performed. Unlike many pop performers, country singers write much of >their material bringing a subjective, direct voice to their performance. >Like blues singers, they aim for intimacy more than technical >sophistication. In the singer's voice and story lay the central appeal >of country music. > >Though country music is a vocal music above all else, >its instrumental sound is unique and immediately >identifiable. It begins with the guitar and is filled >out with fiddle, banjo, mandolin, dobro, bass, pedal >steel guitar, and harmonica. The distinctive country >sound comes from the way the musicians play these >instruments with flat picks, finger picks, bottlenecks, >and bow. In contrast to the smooth, melodic approach of >pop and classical music, country players, again showing >an African American influence, favor a rough-edged >attack with strings popped, scraped, hammered, and >frailed. Mirroring the unadorned vocal sound, >instrumental solos and fills are deliberately >"unrefined." The emphasis is on sounds that >counterpoint the social and emotional realism conveyed >by the singer and the song. Accordingly, country sounds >are harsh, rowdy, romantic, humorous, and rousing. Most >of all, they are mournful. > >Did you ever see a robin weep When leaves begin to die > >That means he's lost the will to live I'm so lonesome I >could cry > >--Hank Williams > >Historically the most dominant and unmistakable quality >of the country sound is sadness. One of the great >stereotypes plaguing country music is the cry-in-the- >beer loser drowning the pain of romantic loss in some >dark tavern. But the heartbreak in country music runs >deeper than cheating, drinking, and divorce. The sad >tale country music has to tell goes back to the >devastation the region suffered during the Civil War, >the loss of rural identity, and the great migration of Southerners to >urban centers in the Midwest and West during the 1940s and 1950s. >Understandably, country music is homesick music, permanently colored by >feelings of longing and lost innocence. > >The loss at the heart of the country song has been >expressed through two divergent impulses. When the >Carter Family and Jimmie Rodgers came to Bristol, >Tennessee in August 1927 to perform before record scout >Ralph Peer and a Victor Talking Machine, they brought >with them distinct bodies of material representing >seemingly contradictory themes and values. In the >Carter Family's huge repertoire of traditional songs >resided the morally decent old-time virtues of work, >family, humility, and Christian fellowship. By >contrast, Rodgers, an ex-railroad brakeman from >Meridian, Mississippi, wrote tunes with roots in blues >and jazz, folk and cowboy songs, work gang hollers and >pop. Though Rodgers wrote his share of songs glorifying >the home and family, his work also celebrated the lives >of hell-raisers, hoboes, wayward lovers, criminals, >rounders, and ramblers. > >Both approaches proved immediately popular. By 1933, >the year of his death from tuberculosis, Jimmie Rodgers >had become country's first crossover success and in the >South his status was near mythic. And by the time the >Carter Family disbanded in 1943, their music was well- >known throughout the United States, as well as parts of >Canada, Mexico, England, Ireland, and Australia. Aside >from establishing the commercial viability of country >music, the breakthroughs of Rodgers and the Carter >Family gave the shared musical culture of the white >South coherence. Though commercialization accelerated >the homogenization of sounds, by documenting the >diversity of local and regional styles it also helped Southerners gain a >fuller sense of their common cultural heritage. The music labeled >"hillbilly" dramatized what they suffered, survived, and left behind. It >offered solace and understanding, realism and escape. But most of all, >it was music that responded to change with a reassertion of tradition. >The Carter Family's religious tunes and sentimental ballads and Jimmie >Rodgers' chronicles of the rambling man, in different ways, mapped the >boundaries of tradition and the dire consequences of its breakdown. > >Because of this emphasis on Southerness and tradition, >country music has long been associated with all that is reactionary. >However, while country music generally expresses a conservative outlook, >the view of country as an exclusively white, male-dominated, right-wing >tradition is unfair and one-dimensional. At no point in its history has >country music expressed a consistent political ideology. Although >performers such as W. Lee O'Daniel, Jimmie Davis, and Roy Acuff have run >for political office and many country musicians have endorsed candidates >and aired opinions in public, the music resists easy ideological >labeling. Every hard- headed patriotic diatribe like "Okie From >Muskogee" can be matched by songs like Waylon Jennings's multicultural, >egalitarian anthem "America" and James Talley's ode to populist >rebellion "Are They Gonna Make Us Outlaws Again?": > >Now there's always been a bottom > >And there's always been a top > >And someone took the orders > >And someone called the shots > >And someone took the beatin', Lord > >And someone got the prize > >Well, that may be the way its been > >But that don't mean its right > >More importantly, since country music has always been a >voice for small farmers, factory hands, day laborers, >the displaced and unemployed, its harsh portraits of >work and everyday life carry an implicit critique of capitalism. Instead >of overt political protest, country songs prefer to deliver social >criticism through poignant descriptions of economic hardship and family >sacrifice. Some of the best examples of this style of protest are Merle >Haggard's "Mama's Hungry Eyes," Dolly Parton's "Coat Of Many Colors," >and Loretta Lynn's "Coal Miner's Daughter." > >As to the issue of race, country music's sentimental >attachment to Dixie is often taken as an endorsement of >white supremacy and slavery. Country music's >glorification of the South, however, derives mostly >from an idealized notion of working the land and the >real life movement of millions off the land during the >years of the Great Depression and World War II. Not surprisingly, >hundreds of country tunes plead the case of the farmer and celebrate the >beauty of Southern landscapes. By contrast, since the birth of the >country music industry in the 1920s, very few country songs have offered >direct commentary on race relations in the South, and certainly no >popular song has advocated a return to the slave system. This doesn't >mean, of course, that white Southerners or the country music industry >are free of racism. Rather, it suggests that the homesickness in country >music is based primarily on the erosion of rural identity. > >Still, it is obvious that "whiteness" is dominant in >country music. Despite the tradition's enormous debt to >African American music and other ethnic music cultures, non-white >performers are still exceedingly rare in country music. When voices of >color have gained popularity in the country field, it has generally been >through songs and styles evidencing only traces of their racial origins. >Nonetheless, in recent decades Mexican-Americans such as Johnny >Rodriguez, Freddy Fender, Tish Hinojosa, and Flaco Jiminez and African >Americans such as Charlie Pride, Stoney Edwards, and Big Al Downing have >won acceptance with country audiences. And occasionally, there are tunes >like Bobby Braddock's "I Believe The South Is Gonna Rise Again" that >break the mold: > >The Jacksons down the road were black like we were > >But our skins were white and theirs was black > >I believe the South's gonna rise again > >But not the way we thought it would back then > >Some of the strongest stereotypes attached to country >music revolve around the social and sexual roles of >women. To many people Tammy Wynette's 1968 hit "Stand >By Your Man" typifies the passive, long suffering >mentality of the unliberated country woman. In truth, >the female perspective in country music is much broader >and far more assertive than this superficial stereotype >can allow. The richest and most authoritative evidence >of this reality can be found in Mary Bufwack and Robert Oermann's >Finding Her Voice: The Saga Of Women In Country Music(Crown Publishers >Inc., New York). This 541 page narrative tracing the lives and music of >country women from the late 19th century up to the present, shows how >country music has encouraged white working class women in their >struggles to survive and resist "economic exploitation, sexual >subjugation, and limited opportunities." > >Exploring the folk origins of country music, Bufwack >and Oermann argue that women were the primary >folklorists for early rural music, memorizing the tunes >and lyrics that provided the basic entertainment for >the family and community. And in their own original >ballads, women expressed sexual fantasies and >discontents in songs loaded with images of romantic >longing, promiscuity, violence, and death. Bufwack and >Oermann also reveal more active and socially oriented resistance in the >depression era songs of Sarah Gunning, the composer of "I Hate The >Capitalist System," and Aunt Molly Jackson, who began making up class >conscious songs and walking picket lines before she was ten. > >It was not until the 1950s, however, that women in >country music began to gain commercial equality with >men. Following Kitty Well's surprising 1952 hit "It >Wasn't God Who Made Honky Tonk Angels"--a woman's >retort to Hank Thompson's "The Wild Side Of Life--women >singers such as Patsy Cline, Loretta Lynn, Dolly >Parton, and Tammy Wynette started achieving record >sales and stardom rivaling country men. The appeal of >the modern country female star, Bufwack and Oermann >note, in many ways mirrored general trends in country >music. Country tunes of the 1950s and 1960s still >focused on subjects of work, family, and religion. But reflecting an >audience that was now struggling to come to grips with the realities of >urban life and wage labor, the music increasingly dealt with alcoholism, >infidelity, and divorce. Reacting to these problems from a distinctly >female point of view, country women stepped forward with songs >displaying tougher attitudes. Sad songs of betrayal prevailed, but women >now would sing also of sexual freedom and nights on the town. And in >love songs, women would voice a straightforward demand for relationships >based on fair play and an end to double standards. > >Some of the purest samples of this new toughness came >in a string of popular tunes by Loretta Lynn. With a >basic hard country sound and a writing style favoring down-to-earth blue >collar bluntness, Lynn laid down the law to men in songs such as "Fist >City" and "Don't Come Home A-Drinking (With Loving On Your Mind)." With >her singles "The Pill" and "One's On The Way," Lynn also became the >first popular country singer to publicly advocate for birth control. >These attitudes and Lynn's reputation for gearing her shows to women, >earned her a legion of devoted, fanatical fans, including a large >lesbian following. > >Although few country music women of the 1950s and 1960s >made music as self-consciously for women as Lynn, the >emergence of country women superstars put "the woman's perspective" on >substantially more equal terms with that of the working man. By 1984 >about one-fourth of the top country singles and albums were by women. >And today's country and pop charts are overflowing with country >women--Reba McEntire, Wynonna Judd, Mary Chapin-Carpenter, Trisha >Yearwood, Suzy Bogguss, Kathy Mattea, Patty Loveless, Pam Tillis, and >K.T. Oslin, to mention only a few. Most significantly, the commercial >appeal of the current generation of country women seems directly linked >to a feminist oriented lyric. Lorrie Morgan, for instance, takes clear >control of her relationships in "What Part Of No," "Watch Me," and "5 >Minutes." Michelle Wright shows off a similar attitude on "Take It Like >A Man." And Martina McBride rebels against an abusive husband on >"Independence Day." As these examples suggest (and many others could be >given), the most progressive and defiant strains of contemporary country >music are being created by women. > >While the politics of country music eludes many popular prejudices and >neat categories of left and right, the fundamental conservatism of the >message cannot be denied. Country's conservatism, however, comes not >from taking a particular stand on particular issues, but in the way it >reads and resolves conflict. Country music may be one of the truest >forms of popular music in giving voice to the bitter realities of class >and the sorry state of male-female relations. But in offering few >avenues of escape and rebellion, country music tends to settle struggle >in favor of the powers that be. Change in country music comes mostly >from individual hard work and sacrifice, luck, and God. The music's >vision of community is insular and backward looking. And as a result, >failure breeds feelings of self-blame and resignation. > >Nonetheless, country's stoic acceptance of things as >they are cannot be taken as an unqualified endorsement >of the status quo. The great strength of country music >has been its ability to capture white working class >life as it really is and without the projection of >false hope. Country music knows you can't always get >what you want or what you need no matter how hard you >try. In this realistic assessment of limits, the music contradicts >capitalist ideals of progress, fairness, and happiness through >consumption. Accordingly, throughout most of its commercial history, >country music has been dismissed as something beneath and apart from >mainstream culture. > >Fully aware of country music's "negatives," the >Nashville music establishment has periodically >regroomed the sound and image of the tradition with >hopes of winning respectability and crossover appeal. >In the 1950s and 1960s, it was the smooth, urbane >"Nashville Sound," in the 1970s it was the tasteless >pop country of John Denver and Olivia Newton-John, and >in the 1980s it was Urban Cowboy role playing. Although >all of these trends gave country a temporary commercial >boost, hard-core country fans and musicians reacted to >each with a purist backlash (bluegrass, the Bakersfield >sound, Willie Nelson and Waylon Jennings' "outlaw" >movement, neotraditionalism) that eventually brought >the market back around to traditional sounds. > >In the Reagan-Bush-Clinton era, country music has >slowly ascended again to mainstream popularity with >sounds and images revealing few traces of country's >old-time rough edges. This time around country's new >audience seems to come from aging white boomers and >younger middle-income suburbanites who've tired of >classic rock and can't tolerate aggressive youth sounds >(metal, hip-hop, alternative rock) or easy listening >pop. For these listeners, country supplies a guitar >based rock influenced sound, adult subject matter, and >yearning for a more simple and decent way of life. > >Unfortunately in meeting this demand, the music >industry has again resorted to formula: muscles in big >hats, starched boot cut Wranglers, choreographed sexy >moves, and pale, twang-free impersonations of >heartbreak. But at the borders of country, in the >progressive new voice of women, left-of-center >hillbilly folk (Jimmie Dale Gilmore, Tom Russell, and >Iris Dement), country rock (Rodney Crowell and Travis >Tritt), traditional bluegrass (the Johnson Mountain >Boys), and tradition conscious hard country (Dwight >Yoakam and Marty Brown), you can still hear the raw >emotions and wild and blue themes of a truly populist >art form. The "old" story country music has to tell is >too real and too rooted to be forgotten. > >[Sandy Carter was born in Gulfport, Mississippi and >grew up in Amarillo, Texas. While attending the >University Of Texas at Austin, he became active in the >late 60s anti-war, student, and civil rights movements. >During the last three decades he has been active in >organizing around workplace, community, and mental >health issues. Since the early 80s, he has been living >in the Bay Area. His writing on music, politics, and >popular culture has appeared in the Bay Guardian and >The San Francisco Chronicle. "Slippin' & Slidin," his >column on music and popular culture, appears monthly in >Z Magazine. He currently works as a high school >counselor in Novato, California.] > >========== > >_____________________________________________ > >Portside aims to provide material of interest >to people on the left that will help them to >interpret the world and to change it. > >Submit via email: moderator@portside.org >Submit via the Web: portside.org/submit >Frequently asked questions: portside.org/faq >Subscribe: portside.org/subscribe >Unsubscribe: portside.org/unsubscribe >Account assistance: portside.org/contact >Search the archives: portside.org/archive > > >!DSPAM:2676,45da7d0025681792683703! > > > > >--------------------------------- >Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. > Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. _________________________________________________________________ The average US Credit Score is 675. The cost to see yours: $0 by Experian. http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=660600&bcd=EMAILFOOTERAVERAGE ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:16:24 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Simon DeDeo Subject: rhubarb is susan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed A bumper crop of reviews on rhubarb, including Jeni Olin, Michael Neff and Joan Houlihan, and an appreciation of Inger Christensen's *alphabet* -- get your vetted content live: http://rhubarbissusan.blogspot.com/2007/02/reading-inger-christensens-alphabet.html http://rhubarbissusan.blogspot.com/2007/02/jeni-olin-paxil.html http://rhubarbissusan.blogspot.com/2007/02/michael-neff-five-whales-east.html http://rhubarbissusan.blogspot.com/2007/02/joan-houlihan-unrelenting.html http://rhubarbissusan.blogspot.com/ Thanks for tuning in -- Simon ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:36:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Dylan Welch Subject: Re: From Kent Johnson re haiku In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Catching up with old digest messages here. Yes, folks like Seisensui, Santoka, Hosai, and others were wonderful rule-breakers. They're among my favourites, and in my journal Tundra #1 I published a selection of Seisensui translations by Hiroaki Sato. These poets broke the rules from a position of knowledge, though, rather than not being sufficiently aware of the expectations and practices of literary haiku. The movement that some of these "free-meter" haiku poets were part of pretty much died out, however, though Santoka remains particularly loved in Japan, somewhat the way Issa is. I have several books of haiku by Santoka and Hosai (don't know of any books strictly of Seisensui, though), and also have most of Makoto Ueda's books (Ueda is on the advisory board for my journal Tundra. Michael -----Original Message----- Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 14:33:29 -0600 From: Joe Amato Subject: From Kent Johnson re haiku Fwding this post from Kent: At 2:16 PM -0600 2/11/07, Kent Johnson wrote: >Anyway, I was clicking around in this haiku discussion at Poetics, >seeing the exchange, including yours, on "rules," syllable count, >etc. Maybe I missed mention of this, not having read through all of >the posts, but has no one pointed out that there's been a vibrant >tradition of "rule-breaking" haiku in Japan since the 1910s, with >Ogiwara Seisensui and the Soun (Layered Clouds) group, which >included great and beloved "free-haiku" poets like Taneda Santoka >and Ozaki Hosai? > >Just wondering, as there is wonderful work in this tradition-- and >given what seems to be a growing interest in the "short poem" within >innovative scene, this is a treasure trove. Plenty of stuff in >translation of Santoka and Hosai. A great book, too, is Makoto >Ueda's Modern Japanese Haiku. > Joe ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:20:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Foley Subject: New FlashPoint #9 is Up! Comments: To: inilluminate@hotmail.com, nilanshu1973@rediffmail.com, joeahearn@gmail.com, paulamlehn@hotmail.com, amprimoz@cogeco.ca, webmaster@mygoodeyeclosed.com, edbaker@sdf.lonestar.org, joma100@sbcglobal.net, redrocksea@taconic.net, HaikuPoet3@aol.com, jbcm2@yahoo.com, RBueh5672@aol.com, ellencardona@sbcglobal.net, Popesixtus@aol.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed ANNOUNCING ....... FLASHPOINT #9 Spring 2007 http://www.flashpointmag.com MARK LOMBARDI LEONARD PELTIER PETER DALE SCOTT WILLIAM BLUM HARVEY ARDEN ROBERT J. MILLER as well as LORD BYRON & EUGENIO MONTALE Phan Van Tri Allen Tucker David Hickman Bob Starkey Ellen Cardona Craig Stormont Grace Davis Charles Belbin Joe Ahearn T.R. Wang Kent Johnson Bradford Haas Joe Brennan Carlo Parcelli JR Foley "Along the frontier where the arts & politics clash ..." _________________________________________________________________ Don’t miss your chance to WIN 10 hours of private jet travel from Microsoft® Office Live http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0540002499mrt/direct/01/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:35:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Caroline Crumpacker Subject: Bilingual Reading Series! Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v749.3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Hoping that all are well and warm and will feel inspired to join us for a bilingual reading featuring Diana Alvarez-Amell reading her translations of Ra=FAl Rivero and Louise Landes Levi reading her translations of Henri Michaux and Mira Bai Sunday February 25 at 4:00 PM at the Bowery Poetry Club Addy: 308 Bowery, New York, NY 10012 Location: foot of First Street, between Houston & Bleecker Phone: 212.614.0505 Subway: F train to Second Ave, or 6 train to Bleecker $7 Readers' Bios: Diana Alvarez-Amell teaches Spanish at Seton Hall University. She =20 writes for cultural publications and scholarly journals in the United =20= States and abroad. Louise Landes Levi, poet,translator, traveller & musician. Most =20 recent translation work HENRI MICHAUX TOWARD TOTALITY, Selected =20 Poems 1928 - 1974, Shiva Stan, 2005. Levi is translator of cult =20 class by Rene Daumal, RASA. Essays on Indian Aesthetics & Selected =20 Sanskrit Studies ( New Directions, 1982 & Shiva Stan, 2003) & Sweet =20 on My Lips, The Love Poems of Mira Bai (Cool Grove, 1997 & 2003) . =20 Other translations are fr. the Dutch of Hans Vlek, Paul Van =20 Ostaijen & Simon Vinkenoog & the Italian ((fr. the Tibetan) of =20 Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche. She lives in NYC. A Sample Poem as Enticement: High Fidelity They=92ll be free from the gramophone=92s pain, its torture from the rub and the needles. Chaste, they=92ll not know the sin of singing a capella while hungry caught between the farce and the fair. The men who stay at home humming soft melodies will acquire wisdom. A fortunate life, serene happiness will be theirs and their children=92s. As light as ash. As clear as eternity. By Ra=FAl Rivero. Translated from the Spanish by Diana Alvarez-Amell *** And if you wish to be removed from this list, please email me and let =20= me know... All best, Aimites, Ciao, Caroline= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 23:00:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Howtodisappear MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed ( If you're in Chicago this weekend, I'm part of the Openport series - http://www.openportchicago.com - there are a lot of (greater) people as well ranging from John Cayley through K Hayles, Wendy Chun, etc. I'm part of the series whether you come or not but you might enjoy it. - Alan ) (part of an ongoing investigation into avatar/motion-capture movement) Howtodisappear The disappearance of the branch into hardened rock and occasional artifacts. The root of the avatar is elsewhere; the avatar itself, the image-avatar, is ghost. The ghost travels through anything of course; it's nothing more than coordinates. Howtodisappear.mov, however primitive, is the beginning of transparency, wizard listening-posts on MOOs for example. Here we are, the virtual becoming-virtual still. http://www.asondheim.org/howtodisappear.mov ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 06:04:19 -0800 Reply-To: rsillima@yahoo.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Silliman's Blog Comments: To: Brit-po , New Po , UK Poetry , Ann White MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ RECENT POSTS Michael Benedict has died Elaine Equi’s Ripple Effect Mongolian Ping Pong The Grand Piano, vol 2, is available (an experiment in collective autobiography) Highlights of Fascicle 3 Emmett Williams has died We by Yevgeny Zemyatin (sci-fi before sci-fi existed) http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:00:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Wilcox Subject: Poetry, Film & Talk -- IVAW Fundraiser Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Fundraiser for Iraq Veterans Against the War Sunday, February 25, 2007 1:00PM NYACK CENTER 58 Depew Avenue, (corner of Depew Ave. & South Broadway) Nyack, New York 10960 for NEW ORLEANS DEPLOYMENT in March=85to muck houses in the lower 9th Suggested Donation $20 - Students $5 VIEW: BBC VIDEO=96=93Katrina March=9206=94 & "Soldiers Speak Out" Films on the military are narrated by those who've lived and fought in=20= war zones. Open discussion after the showing. SPOKEN WORD: Poetry, Stories on War - Read by veterans who wrote them. Host Dan Wilcox, is a poet, photographer and active member of Veterans=20= for Peace, chapter 10 in Albany, New York. Featured Poet: Gerald McCarthy is a member of Veterans for Peace and=20 Vietnam Veterans Against the War. His books include War Story, Shoetown=20= and the forthcoming The light has no tongue. Recent poetry publications=20= include: War Literature & The Arts, American War Poetry, Italian=20 Americana, The North American Review, and Hawaii Pacific Review. IVAW members/poets: Fernando Braga and Michael Blake Additional VFP readers include Sam Weinreb (WWII), Dayl Wise (Vietnam),=20= Jim Murphy (Vietnam), and others. After the performance there will be an open mic session for any poets=20 wishing to read. Sign-up at 1pm. One or two poems, more if time allows. OPEN DISCUSSION: What can we do? Opinions, comments from the youngest to the oldest will be encouraged &=20= welcomed. Sponsored by Veterans for Peace - Tappan Zee Brigade & Rockland Coalition for Peace and Justice www.RocklandAction.org VeteransForPeaceNY.org For more information call: Jim Murphy =96 845 358 5709 The main objectives of IVAW are threefold: 1: Bring the troops home now. 2: Support Iraqi reconstruction in whatever way possible. 3: Support our veterans and our troops now and upon their return home. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 11:01:02 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: (on behalf of Kent Johnson) FW: "Kent Johnson's" poems at Flashpoint Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed On behalf of Kent Johnson, forwarding this letter: > >Dear Poetics List: > >Jack Foley recently announced the new issue of Flashpoint magazine. > >There are three or four poems in the issue that are attributed to "Kent >Johnson." > >I just thought I'd mention that these poems were not written by *this* >Kent Johnson (the one who lives in Freeport, Illinois). > >I think they may be written by Carlo Parcelli, but I am not entirely >sure. Maybe they were written by a committee of people, who knows. > >In any case, if I'm right that the ideational "Kent Johnson" their >biological Author(s) had in mind is this Kent Johnson (me), well, I want >to say that I am very honored, and I hope there will be more of these >kinds of poems. Maybe even a book of them, in the end? > >Kent Johnson _________________________________________________________________ The average US Credit Score is 675. The cost to see yours: $0 by Experian. http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=660600&bcd=EMAILFOOTERAVERAGE ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 12:04:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinsky Subject: 1 - sorry everyone a cancellation Comments: To: Acousticlv@aol.com, AdeenaKarasick@cs.com, AGosfield@aol.com, alonech@acedsl.com, Altjazz@aol.com, amirib@aol.com, Amramdavid@aol.com, anansi1@earthlink.net, AnselmBerrigan@aol.com, arlenej2@verizon.net, Barrywal23@aol.com, bdlilrbt@icqmail.com, butchershoppoet@hotmail.com, CarolynMcClairPR@aol.com, CaseyCyr@aol.com, CHASEMANHATTAN1@aol.com, Djmomo17@aol.com, Dsegnini1216@aol.com, Gfjacq@aol.com, Hooker99@aol.com, rakien@gmail.com, jeromerothenberg@hotmail.com, Jeromesala@aol.com, JillSR@aol.com, JoeLobell@cs.com, JohnLHagen@aol.com, kather8@katherinearnoldi.com, Kevtwi@aol.com, krkubert@hotmail.com, LakiVaz@aol.com, Lisevachon@aol.com, Nuyopoman@AOL.COM, Pedevski@aol.com, pom2@pompompress.com, Rabinart@aol.com, Rcmorgan12@aol.com, reggiedw@comcast.net, RichKostelanetz@aol.com, RnRBDN@aol.com, Smutmonke@aol.com, sprygypsy@yahoo.com, SHoltje@aol.com, Sumnirv@aol.com, tcumbie@nyc.rr.com, velasquez@nyc.com, VITORICCI@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit the following gig has been cancelled: steve reading Saturday, FEB. 24th, 2007 @ 7 PM @ NUTUREart GALLERY 910 GRAND STREET 2nd Floor Williamsburg Brooklyn FREE ADMISSION cancellation ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 15:47:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Waber Subject: New River Journal's new issue Comments: To: announce MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii New River Journal ( http://www.cddc.vt.edu/journals/newriver/ ), the first online journal devoted exclusively to digital writing and art, is pleased to announce the release of its premier issue for 2007. After a period of dormancy, New River Journal has been redesigned and reborn, complete with exciting new works by some of today's leading digital authors. New River Journal was founded by Virginia Tech English Professor Ed Falco in 1996, with the assistance of Len Hatfield, a computer guru then on the Virginia Tech faculty. The online publication has consistently tested the boundaries and rules of writing in a digital age. This new issue marks the first time the journal has been managed and edited by students participating in the MFA Creative Writing Program in the College of Liberal Arts and Human Sciences. Managing editors for the inaugural launch are two graduate students, Laura Dulaney and Bryon Sabol. The managing editors, with the help of Brent Jesiek of Virginia Tech's Center for Digital Discourse and Culture, redesigned the New River Journal's website to provide a user friendly interface and easier access to the journal's archive. Beginning with this issue, the Journal plans to post new issues twice a year, in December and May. The current issue includes works by David Herrstrom, Jason Nelson, and Dan Waber. David Herrstrom's "The Nicodemus Glyph" is a heady investigation of the ancient author and teacher, Nicodemus. Herrstrom has constructed the Glyph to taunt the reader's desire for more definite knowledge of Nicodemus, while simultaneously signaling that we can never fully know a historical person or circumstance. Jason Nelson's work tests the boundary between "game-like" interfaces and serious poetry. "Poetry Cube" not only allows readers to reorganize Nelson's words, but it also allows them to enter their own poetry and, with the click of a button, shuffle the lines into an array of possibilities. "Between Treacherous Objects" takes a form reminiscent of a video game flight simulator. Using the mouse, readers fly through the space of images and poetry, choosing to stop where they desire. Dan Waber's "Writing Through Time" examines and challenges the limitations and constructs of space and time as they traditionally apply to the written words. Words appear and disappear on the "page," creating a layered fabric of text and meaning that can be further manipulated by the reader. The Virginia Tech MFA Creative Writing Program was established in 2005. New River Journal's managing editors Dulaney and Sabol are members of the program's first class. The New River Journal is currently hosted by the Center for Digital Discourse and Culture. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 14:33:10 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: patrick dunagan Subject: Blue Press Poets a reading and conversation 2/22 @ SF State Poetry Center MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Blue Press Poets a reading and conversation with Kevin Opstedal, Michael Sunnylyn Thibodeaux, Patrick Dunagan, Micah Ballard and Cedar Sigo Thursday February 22, 2007 3:30 pm @ the Poetry Center HUM 512, SFSU, free =95 Kevin Opstedal is publisher of Blue Press Books and editor of an array of sub-radar literary magazines, the latest being Blue Book #8. Recent works are On the Low (Gallery Books) and Rare Surf, Vol. 2 : New & Used Poems (Smog Eyes Press). He lives in Santa Cruz, and is writing a literary history of the Bolinas poets. =95 Michael Price, co-editor of Blue Book magazine and Blue Press Books is author of Doombook (The Figures), On the Eve of the Death of Michael Price , and his latest, The Year of the Mother (both Blue Press). He lives in Boulder. =95 Sunnylyn Thibodeaux, from New Orleans, has been in San Francisco six years. Her books include Last We Spoke (Auguste Press, 2004) and 20/20 Yielding (Blue Press, 2005). =95 Patrick Dunagan's chapbooks include: Young American Poets (Showerhead), U.S.A. (surfZombie), Baby Skull (Yenless Rumsoaked), Of Stone (Snag), Fess Parker (Red Ant), and After the Sinews (Auguste). =95 Micah Ballard, from Louisiana, lives in San Francisco and runs the Lew Gallery at New College of California. His books include Emblematic (Old Gold), Bettina Coffin (Red Ant Press), In the Kindness of Night (Blue Press), and Evangeline Downs (Ugly Duckling Presse). =95 Cedar Sigo is author of Goodnight Nurse (Angry Dog Press, 2001). His Selected Writings was published by Ugly Duckling Presse (2003; second edition, 2005). Forthcoming is a book of collaborations, Deathrace V.S.O.P. He lives in San Francisco, where he is the editor of Old Gold Press. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 19:00:16 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nate Pritts Subject: 2 new chapbooks from H_NGM_N: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Announcing the next two numbers in the H_NGM_N Chapbook Series:=20 #5 - A THING AND ITS GHOST by Evan Commander=20 &=20 #6 - THEORY OF THE WALKING BIG BANG by Robert Krut=20 Click on over to H_NGM_N B_ _KS for full info on the chaps, including = links to sample poems, shots of the cover & ordering info.=20 Also, be sure to pop in on us at the AWP Bookfair - we'll be at table = #125, hanging w/ our buddies from Octopus, Typo, Forklift, Ohio & who = knows who else?!? We've even cooked up an exclusive version of Robert = Krut's new chap, available only at the conference!=20 *=20 Don't forget to order your copy of COMBATIVES #3 before they're gone - a = tremendous selection of exquisite corpse poems by Sarah Lilius & Erin M. = Bertram. COMBATIVES#4 - featuring Elisa Gabbert - will be out in = mid-March.=20 *=20 &, as always, make sure to check out H_NGM_N. #6 is live & rockin'.=20 *=20 yr ed_tor,=20 Nate Pritts=20 (please feel free to forward this message. if you feel you have = received this message in error, reply with "no, thanks" in the subject = line.)=20 H_NGM_N, a journal of poetry, poetics, &c.=20 http://www.h-ngm-n.com =20 A THING AND ITS GHOST by Evan Commander=20 http://www.h-ngm-n.com/h_ngm_n-b__ks/chapbook-5-a-thing-and-its-ghost-by-= evan-commander.html = =20 THEORY OF THE WALKING BIG BANG by Robert Krut=20 http://www.h-ngm-n.com/h_ngm_n-b__ks/chapbook-6-theory-of-the-walking-big= -bang-by-robert-krut.html = =20 COMBATIVES!=20 http://www.h-ngm-n.com/combatives/ = =20 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 19:16:25 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: a dalkey book cometh sooner MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just spoke with Martin Riker, senior editor at Dalkey Archive Press, and it looks like Rhode Island Notebook is coming out sooner than expected: November, 2007. 9 months. Fantastic. Here is an excerpt Dung bagel booby mama Dung bagel booby mama Dung bagel booby mama Dung bagel booby mama Dung bagel booby mama Dung bagel booby mama Wolfowitz Wolfowitz Rummy Dick Bush Rice Dung bagel booby mama Dung bagel booby mama Dung bagel booby mama Dung bagel booby mama Wolfowitz Wolfowitz Rummy Dick Bush Rice -- __________________________________ http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com ---------------------------------- Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, Illinois 61790 309.438.5284 (office) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 20:44:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Dylan Welch Subject: Re: Haiku as a genre In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Jason, some comments in response to your detailed message. Regarding the features you were incorporating into your verses, it seems to me that you suceeded in some cases, but with the following possible exceptions, at least in haiku terms (see the numbered list that follows below). On the other hand, if you were trying to create borderline haiku, you succeeded, I suppose, but perhaps the citizenship of your verses is still foreign to haiku. Since you asked if I thought they were still haiku or not, I would say no. Somehow, Jerry Kilbride's "mine / lifting /fog" is still haiku, but it is certainly on the fringe. Something in your verses takes them across the border. You also make an interesting comment about a "normative" element that can be prescriptive, which I have to fight in my reactions to some poems I read, as it runs the risk of killing the life of the poem. I also have to guard against the label of "haiku" as meaning "good haiku," so you are right to ask if there can be poems that are bad haiku but still haiku -- to which the answer is of course yes. It can have all the "prescribed" elements, and still lack freshness, or be weakly crafted. Your verses, though clearly crafted and brimming with freshness, depart from the prescribed elements enough that I personally have trouble admitting them as haiku. Someone else might feel differently. However, I doubt they'd ever find a place in most of the haiku journals publishing in North America. Such a claim might say something negative about the sensitivity range of the editors in question, but if they are gatekeepers of haiku, it may also say something about what they think is important in haiku. But yes, a poem can be bad but still be a haiku. It can be a haiku if the poet wants to call it that, of course, but discounting that generous approach, it can still be a haiku for other aesthetic reasons (that is, by hitting enough of the "haiku" targets), and fail for not hitting them very well. The haiku journal Haiku Headlines, edited monthly by David Priebe since 1988 until his death last year, is a case in point. The majority of the poems are deathly, as haiku (I've used its poems as examples of "bad haiku" in my workshops -- I have a file folder for large printouts of the poems, even), yet sure, they're still haiku. And even the best haiku journals have "better" or "weaker" poems, though often such rankings are in the eye of the beholder. Then there are the pseudo-haiku poems in books such as *Haikus for Jews* or *Honku*, and so on, which hit the wrong 5-7-5 target, and may have other virtues, but are essentially ignorant of most haiku necessities (or choose to ignore them). If haiku is a "genre," and thus broad rather than overly narrow, then these poems are still "haiku," because they try to hit the target(s) that the poet *thinks* a haiku should hit. To me, they have very little to do with haiku, and are more damaging than helpful to haiku as literature for their perpetuation of misunderstandings, though that's really a separate issue. Actually, though, I think it's hard for a haiku to be a "bad" haiku and yet still successfully *be* a haiku, because the more you "prove" the poems haiku-ness, the more you're going to tip it towards being a good haiku, or at least that's my hunch. There's some philosophical danger, there, because the term "haiku shouldn't be a form of encomium, as you say. Most of Sonia Sanchez's poems offered as haiku are what I would consider *good* nonhaiku. Others might think of them as bad haiku, but that isn't fair to what she's trying to do with vernacular voice. And I could start citing all sorts of ot her poems and talk about whether they're haiku or not, or whether they're good or bad, but it's hard to know where to start. And I would have only one opinion, of course! Anyway, here are some thoughts in reaction to the four criteria you set for yourself: 1. Nature references. Yes, you had nature references, but, in "warm santa / ana," using an essentially nonnatural term for the wind tends to distance the poem from the only natural element therein (the wind). A lot of readers wouldn't even know that you're referring to wind, which isn't necessarily a problem, but it is a risk you take. And in the lycra verse, the reference to "plant" is so generic as to not conjure up much of a nature image. Similarly, the reference to rain in the "march flush" poem is fairly slight as a nature reference, and might even be read as nonliteral. But again, I actually don't care about haiku having nature references or not. That's not the aim of haiku, as I understand it. Rather, haiku aims at the seasonal reference, and this happens to embrace nature much of the time, but it's really the season word that matters. 2. Seasonality. Again, yes, but not always clearly. The reference to "march" is ambiguous in many ways. Could you mean to march along, as a verb, since you lowercased it? So we don't know for certain if you meant March as the month. More than that, though, March means one season in the northern hemisphere, and an opposite season below the equator, so it's not as seasonally clear or universal as saying "cherry blossoms," for example. I don't sense any season in the lycra verse. I suppose the action of green colors "waxing" (as opposed to waning) could suggest the deepening of summer, but that could be too much of a leap for some readers, especially when the word "wax" is easily interpretted as a noun rather than a verb. And the Santa Ana winds are seasonal, but because they're a regional phenomenon, their function as a seasonal reference not be clear to many readers (and they're not limited to a single season, say, like cherry blossoms, so it has less "sharpness" than other se asonal references). Also, there's a difference between a seasonal reference and a season word (or kigo). The kigo tradition includes the overtone of allusion to other poems that use the same season word, depending on the season word. This won't happen with every season word, or there can be too many excellent poems for it to be clear which ones you might want to evoke, but in some cases a specific reference can be clear (and of course, allusion can be accomplished outside the season word as well). At the very least, though, the use of specific kigo respectfully invokes the entire tradition of that particular season word, if not a specific poem that has used it before. 3. Juxtaposition. In your "march flush" poem, it's too hard to parse the various possible meanings of the words and lines, thus making it hard to narrow down to the ONE "juxtaposition" that a good haiku usually has. Or, in the case of "warm santa / ana [wind] crumples silver / paper," there's no juxtaposition at all, at least not a grammatical one, because the lines read as a single grammatical unit, despite the line breaks (it's not the dreaded "Complete Sentence" you were trying to avoid, but it's still a single grammatical unit). Same with "a cotton lycra weave lifts / from plants it catches." There's actually no grammatical juxtaposition here at all either. And "green / colors / wax" can also be read as a single grammatical unit. It also becomes so minimalist (which is fine, but:) that it is really seeking to do other things than juxtaposition. The juxtaposition that goes on in haiku happens in various ways. To be closer to the Japanese tradition of the kireji, or cutting word, my sense is that the juxtaposition in an English-language haiku needs to be a stronger caesura, or cut. This tends to require the poem to have two grammatically unrelated fragments (not three, and not just one fragment). The juxtaposition is thus grammatical as well as contextual. You have mostly contextual juxtapositions, not grammatical ones. In the extreme, a contextual juxtaposition is like writing about an elephant and a doily, which can be startling and fresh, but there also needs to be a grammatical "juxtaposition" also -- akin to a caesura, but stronger, in the sense of having two fragments that are (most often) grammatically unrelated. For example: spring breeze-- the pull of her hand as we near the pet store 4. Single experience/immediacy. This is where I think you achieved the most -- with single experiences. Immediacy in your verses is clouded, at least for me, by line breaks, by ambiguity as to whether certain words are nouns or verbs (too much ambiguity of syntax, I'd say, at least for haiku, but I guess that *was* what you were aiming at), and by other trouble parsing the grammar. Compare the immediacy of your verses to the immediacy of my verse above. Perhaps it's too "simple" for you or other readers, and you think there's no "there" there. Could be. But by focusing on a tactile sensation (haiku is a poetry of the five senses -- hence the title of one of my haiku workshops, "Come to Your Senses"), the poem gains authenticity and immediacy, and pairs it with a fitting seasonal reference (in this case the naming of the season, which may be the cheapest sort of season word). The season references should usually be more than just a weather report, however, but should have an e motional rightness to it. The preceding verse makes no mention of how old the female in the poem is, but nearly all people who hear or read this poem have told me that they imagine a child. Yet why is that? It's not stated at all. Yet it is suggested, through association with spring, the season of youthful beginnings, by breeze, which is lighter than wind or gale, and by the pet store, where we may easily imagine puppies and kittens. Yet all of this is, hopefully, intuitive, and part of the "immediate" gestalt of the poem. This is the sort of immediacy a good haiku is after, and it's best if it's not cluttered by overly clever wordings. As I think Basho said, haiku is like a finger pointing at the moon, and if the finger is too bejeweled, we no longer see the moon. Indeed, as Jack Kerouac said, haiku should be as simple as porridge. Though the tone is different, it's like a good joke -- saying only what needs to be said, and nothing more. Like the engine in a car, a haiku should have only necessary parts. And like I say in the haiku workshops I give, a haiku should not be as short as possible, but as short as *necessary*, which makes a world of difference. meteor shower . . . a gentle wave wets our sandals Hope these comments are of help to some. Michael P.S. Interesting to read that your "green / colors / wax" poem was so directly derived from or inspired by the Kilbride poem. Here's a similar minimalist poem of mine, that may or may not be a haiku (each line is meant to be centered): children's book sh elves -----Original Message----- Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 21:35:29 -0800 From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Haiku as a genre Thanks for your comments michael, I think your comments are interesting. I got some b/c comments about them from charles rossiter too, and I wanted to clarify something, and loathe as I am to do reads of my own poems, i do want to explain what i was trying to do with these because i composed them with the intention of trying to create "borderline" cases of haiku, that is, poems that fit uncomfortably within the genre. It's a sort of experiment, and one i'll probably pursue, but in response to your comments i'd like to shed a little light to see if maybe your greater experience with haiku might help me with my next foray into this kind of thing. so, basically, the task I set myself was to compose several poems that had the following features: 1.) some reference to nature 2.) some reference to seasonality 3.) a juxtaposition of elements 4.) a sense of a single experience or immediacy all the while remaining true to my own personal poetic commitments which involve among other things a certain ambiguity of syntax and the forcing of multivalence through the use of glued together sentence fragments and the resistance to the received form that most people know as The Complete Sentence. So I dashed off those poems to try to see just where the borders of the haiku might lie. as experiments, i'm not particularly concerned with how good they are, but i am interested in whether or not you think they're haiku, and if not, why not? I'll admit that i have a suspicion you have an so far undiscussed normative element that is in some way prescriptive and laudatory, that is, i get the impression from some of your statements that for you "haiku" is as much a name of a genre of poetry as it is a form of encomium. So there's a second question i have that i haven't yet asked: can a poem be bad (as is most certainly the case with my fourth example, by far the weakest of the four in my opinion but also one that i think is very haiku-like given my understanding of the genre) and still be a haiku? and to that point, what makes a bad haiku bad while allowing it to remain a haiku? toward that end: rain on march flush on the student body relies on several puns, the first the fact that march is a verb, a noun, and a Month (and from that seasonality); that "the student body" can be either a group of students or the body of a particular student; and finally that flush can either mean against and adjacent to (self-referencing the juxtaposition of the outdoors of a rain on a group of marching students) and the very intimate image of a young persons body that is "flushed" for some reason. warm santa ana crumples silver paper is meant to turn on any number of things, but the primary turn is the one that you seem to have missed that while ana is a female name, and santa is a bearded guy who brings presents, 'santa ana' is the name of a kind of warm wind that happens in the autumn and spring in southern california. other things i tried to pack in there is the traditional. so this one was really playing with the idea of genre by attempting to juxtapose seasons (autumn winter spring) while the other images juxtapose age (the bearded old man with the young girl exuberantly ripping paper). a cotton lycra weave lifts from plants it catches I won't comment any further on this one, Murat gave it precisely the reading i'd intended and i'd like to thank him for it, except to point out that part of the "juxtaposition" is the fact that cotton is a "natural" material derived from a low growing shrub that has sticks that could easily catch a garment, and lycra which is one of that is wholly synthetic made out of chains of polymers. both are the most widely used fibers in textiles of their respective types (synthetic or natural) and a large portion of garments worn in north america are made out a cotton/lycra fabrics. Also, while i went looking for pictures to show you, i found out that lycra is actually a brand name, and the etymology of cotton is from the arabic al qutun, which while neither here nor there poetically, might reveal more meaning if delved into more deeply. finally the last, and I think weakest, of the four i posted. It's interesting that you mentioned mime lifting fog because my green colors wax is a semi-procedural, aleatorical poem derived from kilbride's poem (which i like an awful lot, btw). what i did was move all the vowels in kilbrides poem back in the mouth so from the dipthong in mime /aI/, i got the dipthong /iu/. I couldn't think of a word for that, so i cheated and shortened it to /i/ from the /I/ in lifting, i got to the /uh/ of colors and from the ah in fog, i got the the aaa in wax. (there really ought to be an easy way to type IPA characters). so from there it was just a matter of fitting consonants around the vowels until I got a sequence of words that i liked. my problem with this one is that it stinks of the sort of cleverness that i generally don't like in poetry and that seems to be the stock in trade of writers like Billy Collins for example, but that was done well (thanks to the heavy injection of humanity) by Ted Berrigan, so I let this one live. basically, it all turns on the double meaning of "grean" "colors" and "wax" if green is a noun, colors is a verb and wax is a noun, you have an image of a crayon being made. if colors is the noun, green is an adjective, and wax is the verb, you have the image of flowering plants as the green of spring spreads. alternately, you could have green and wax as nouns, and colors as the verb, but read wax as the subject and green as the object, which is an image of someone using a crayon. all of which connote young life and growth. but again, i think this one is mostly crap primarily because there isn't much of an image in it, and i generally prefer short poems with strong images that aren't as necessary in longer pieces. ugh. even though i had a reason to do it, that's still not fun to do. sorry to inflict you all with my explanations. Basically none of these are great, but i would like to know michael, seeing how i read them from my standpoint on reading poetry, are they haiku do you think? are they the borderline cases i intended them to be? and if they aren't, do you think you could point me at some borderline cases, or perhaps some people who push at what haiku can and write haiku that might be of questionable pedigree? also, to my earlier point, i would LOVE to see an example of something you think is a BAD haiku that is still successfully haiku. thanks again for the comments on my four macedonia/zappai/maybe-haiku/ ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 17:44:54 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grumman Subject: Re: a dalkey book cometh sooner In-Reply-To: <45DCEEE9.2070406@ilstu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Today, in MY blog (over a thousand visits in just three years!) I mention having gotten my Comprepoetica file of Small Press Review columns up-to-date. The latest is about Crag Hill's blog. I spend most of it on analyzing a poem Crag composed using first lines from Charles Olson. The entry to the files is here: http://www.geocities.com/Comprepoetica/spr-stuff/index.html. My columns, by the way, go back to June 1993, so provide a fairly lengthy record of recent marginal poetry. --Bob ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 19:59:56 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: 3 brilliant books from BlazeVox MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sitting here with three really great books from BlazeVox. 1. Joe Amato. _Finger Exorcised_ 2. Daniel Borzutksy. _The Ecstacy of Capitulation_ 3. Megan Volpert. _Face Blindness_ -- __________________________________ http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com ---------------------------------- Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, Illinois 61790 309.438.5284 (office) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 22:33:48 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jane Sprague Subject: Palm Press @ The Smell: 2/25/07 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Poetics People near Los Angeles, California: Please join us this Sunday at 6:30pm to hear recent and forthcoming work = by poets and current or future Palm Press authors: David Buuck Andrew Choate Dana Teen Lomax Ara Shirinyan *** David Buuck is the author of RUTS (Taxt Press) and RUNTS (self-punish or = parrot). He is Contributing Editor at Artweek, and founder of BARGE, the = Bay Area Research Group in Enviro-aesthetics. He currently teaches = conceptual art writing at the California College of the Arts, while = working on his PhD in the History of Consciousness at UC-Santa Cruz. He = lives in Oakland, CA. Andrew Choate was born in Columbia, South Carolina and educated at = Northwestern University and the CalArts. His music and art criticism has = been regularly published since 1998. His artwork has been shown in Los = Angeles, CA; Yerevan, Armenia; Venice, Italy; and Languedoc, France. His = first book, Langquage Makes Plastic of the Body, was published by Palm = Press in 2006. He hosts a weekly radio show as "The Unwrinkled Ear" from = 9-10:30pm every Thursday night on www.killradio.org. His current project = is a song cycle. =20 Dana Teen Lomax is the author of Currency (Palm Press, 2006) and Room = (a+bend press, 1999) which was awarded the San Francisco Foundation's = Joseph Henry Jackson Prize for poetry. Currently she co-edits Letters = To Poets, Conversations About Poetics, Politics, and Community and is = making Q, a series of "home movies" about raising her daughter on the = grounds of a prison. She teaches creative writing at a number of = institutions and lives with her family in northern California. Ara Shirinyan edits and publishes Make Now Press www.makenow.org. He is = the author of Syria is in the World (Palm Press, 2007). His poems are = published on ubuweb and elsewhere. *** The Smell is located at 247 S. Main Street, Los Angeles, CA (between 2nd = and 3rd). This event starts at 6:30pm.=20 www.palmpress.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 01:14:44 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Seena Liff Subject: Re: Yuri Kapralov's art MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone know where I can see some of Yuri Kapralov's artwork online? I'm currently reading his wonderful book, "Once There Was a Village", and I knew him slightly when I lived in the East Village. I'd very much like to see some these "piano constructions" he talks about (art made of found objects, esp. old pianos). Any suggestions would be helpful. Thanks- Seena Liff


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AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 08:18:00 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: blacksox@ATT.NET Subject: Haiku MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A fellow poet Tarre Beach speaks Japanese, and wants to know if there are any books, ( you might suggest) that teach haiku in Japanese. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 08:24:29 -0800 Reply-To: jmbettridge@yahoo.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Bettridge Subject: TODAY: Nathaniel Tarn at Beinecke Library MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Please join us for a poetry reading by Nathaniel Tarn on Thursday, February 22nd, 2007, 4pm. This event is free and open to the public. For additional information about poetry at the Beinecke Library visit: http://beineckepoetry.wordpress.com/. Poet, translator, anthropologist, and editor Nathaniel Tarn is the author of more than thirty volumes of poetry, essays, and translations, including a collection of his essays on poetics and anthropology, Views from the Weaving Mountain, and his recently published Selected Poems 1950-2000. Tarn founded and edited the Cape Editions series in England in the 1960s, publishers of Charles Olson, J.H. Prynne, Ted Berrigan, and others. He is the recipient of numerous awards including the Guinness prize, a Wenner Gren fellowship, a Commonwealth of Pennsylvania fellowship, and a Rockefeller Foundation fellowship. Until his retirement in 1985, Tarn was a professor in comparative literature at Rutgers. For more information about and examples of Nathaniel Tarn’s work please visit: http://jacketmagazine.com/28/hill-tarn.html http://jacketmagazine.com/06/tarnpoem.html http://www.poetrymagazines.org.uk/magazine/record.asp?id=2049 http://www.emilydickinson.org/titanic/material/tarn1.html http://www.emilydickinson.org/titanic/material/tarn2.html Nancy Kuhl Associate Curator, The Yale Collection of American Literature The Beinecke Rare Book and Manuscript Library Yale University 121 Wall Street P.O. Box 208240 New Haven, CT 06520-8240 Phone: 203.432.2966 Fax: 203.432.4047 ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 12:48:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Roche Subject: Cadillac Cicatrix MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A handsome new journal, Cadillac Cicatrix, is now online at = http://www.cadillaccicatrix.com/ Below is the press release from publisher Benjamin Spencer. Among other = features, there is a tribute to Rochester poet Sam Abrams, who taught in = the St. Mark's Poetry Project in the Sixties and was active in the Angry = Arts collective in NYC. An anthology of poems and prose in honor of Sam = is scheduled to appear this summer from Spuyten Duyvil Press. John Roche jfrgla@rit.edu FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE February 21, 2007 CARMEL VALLEY, CA ? NorthernPros Creations is proud to present its new = journal of innovative writing and art, CADILLAC CICATRIX = (kadl_ak?sik_ay_triks).=20 In this premiere issue, available online at www.CadillacCicatrix.com, we = focus on Story. How are stories told? What makes a story? Why tell this = story?=20 Lighting a corridor congested by automobile traffic, lost loves, a = deconstructed copy machine, abandoned rabbits, cotton candy, gardening, = suicidaphobia, the near hanging of a medical marijuana user, and the = fragged American Dream are some of our finest contemporary authors and = artists.=20 =20 FICTION:=20 Keith Abbott, deborah brandon, Peter DeMarco, Martin Dodd, Erin = Ergenbright, Phillip Gardner, Richard Kostelanetz, Sean Padraic = McCarthy, Raymond Nolan, Peter Orner, Robert Judge Woerheide POETRY Sam Abrams, Andrei Codrescu, Bob Holman, Lyn Lifshin, Rebecca Lilly, = Kathleen Rooney, Michael Salcman, Ed Sanders, Dave Snyder, Michael = Stephens ESSAYS & INTERVIEWS Jim Cohn, Lester Grinspoon M.D ., Nate Haken, John Jourden, John Keats, = Mike Null,=20 Lauren Pretnar ART & ARTISTS Nathan Redwood, Tony Stringer, Diane Katsiaficas While most of the contributions will be in the print and online versions = of the journal, we have allocated some art and writing for online-only = publication.=20 Feel free to disseminate our information freely. Our subscription = service begins with the first issue. Should you have any questions and/or comments, please feel free to = contact us.=20 Thank you for your attention,=20 Benjamin Spencer Executive Editor Cadillac Cicatrix www.CadillacCicatrix.com www.NorthernPros.com northernpros@gmail.com # ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 13:20:14 -0500 Reply-To: max@maxmiddle.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Max Middle Subject: soundpo video MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Greetings all, Some video links to share with you - a brief Max Middle Sound Project reading on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fr69YDrUSio There are four brief clips of me reading all alone too - three of the four are from the Ottawa launch for Shift & Switch: New Canadian Poetry on January 13th, 2006: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=MaxMiddle We have plans to take the Max Middle Sound Project show on the road this summer, around Ontario with a foray into New York state. Cheers, Max ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 12:13:34 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: DJ SPOOKY Subject: Yoko Ono and Dj Spooky Present "Rising" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain Dear Friends and Colleagues - I'm writing to say a basic hello, and I hope this message finds you well and in good spirits. It's been a while! This is just a quick email about a project I'm really happy about. I've been a big Yoko Ono fan for years, and this is a mini project we put together a while ago. Thurston Moore from Sonic Youth plays guitar on the track, and the whole album has folks like Cat Power, The Flaming Lips, Peaches, Hank Shocklee (who produced Public Enemy), and others. The album title is called Yes, I'm a Witch and its Yoko's first full length album in a while. If you have a moment, the track I did with her is up on my myspace page, and the full album has just been released on Astralwerks. It's called "Rising" and its one of Yoko's poems - her voice came out great in the mixdown! Check it out! www.myspace.com/djspooky also: http://www.astralwerks.com/ono/default.html Official Site: http://www.djspooky.com UPCOMING DATES http://www.djspooky.com/stage.html Click here on http://server1.streamsend.com/newstreamsend/unsubscribe.php?md=153&cd=725&ud=ff2f0d2c6ffc498b3485715dd86c0b13 to update your profile or Unsubscribe ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 18:06:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetry Project Subject: Events at the Poetry Project 2/26 - 2/28 In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Dears, Please join us this coming week! Love, The Poetry Project The Poetry Project is currently accepting applications for the Artistic Director position. The deadline for applications is Friday, March 2. Please visit http://www.poetryproject.com/director_desc.php for the job descriptio= n and application requirements and procedure details. Monday, February 26, 8:00 pm Julian T. Brolaski & Tao Lin Julian T. Brolaski is a love poet, and dedicates all hir verses to Love. S/he co-curated the Holloway Poetry Series at UC Berkeley from 2004-2006 an= d the New Brutalism series from 2003-2005. S/he is the author of Letters to Hank Williams, The Daily Usonian, Madame Bovary's Diary and the defunct blo= g Swimming for Dummies (under the name Tanya Brolaski). S/he is writing hir dissertation on rhyme in medieval, Renaissance and Apache poetry. Tao Lin i= s the author of a poetry-collection, You Are a Little Bit Happier Than I Am, = a story-collection, Bed, a novel, Eeeee Eee Eeee, and two e-books, one poetry= , This Emotion Was a Little E-book, and one stories, Today the Sky Is Blue an= d White With Bright Blue Spots and a Small Pale Moon and I Will Destroy Our Relationship Today. His web site is called Reader of Depressing Books. Wednesday, February 28, 8:00 pm Ed Friedman & Paul Violi Ed Friedman wonders whether or not this brief note will make you want to come hear him read at the Poetry Project. Yes, he was L.A. High School=B9s =B3Boy of the Week.=B2 Yes, he married the former Miss Rodeo for New York State= . Yes, he was the Director of the Poetry Project for sixteen years. Yes, he recently appeared on Jon Stewart=B9s The Daily Show. Yes, his books include L= a Frontera, Mao & Matisse, Away, and Drive Through the Blue Cylinders. Yes, h= e inhaled helium from a weather balloon and sang (in a very high voice) at th= e Museum of Modern Art. Yes, he co-edited Unnatural Acts with Bernadette Maye= r and edited The World. Yes his new work is titled And the great world of mas= s struggle spread out between two large lemon bushes. Yes yes yes come to the reading. It will be so great to see you there. Paul Violi is the author of eleven books of poetry: Overnight, due early in 2007 from Hanging Loose Press, Breakers, Fracas, The Curious Builder, Likewise and Harmatan. He currently teaches in the New School=B9s graduate writing program and at Columbia University. Become a Poetry Project Member! http://poetryproject.com/membership.php Winter Calendar: http://www.poetryproject.com/calendar.php The Poetry Project is located at St. Mark's Church-in-the-Bowery 131 East 10th Street at Second Avenue New York City 10003 Trains: 6, F, N, R, and L. info@poetryproject.com www.poetryproject.com Admission is $8, $7 for students/seniors and $5 for members (though now those who take out a membership at $85 or higher will get in FREE to all regular readings). We are wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. For more info call 212-674-0910. If you=B9d like to be unsubscribed from this mailing list, please drop a line at info@poetryproject.com. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 15:22:50 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: T-Shirt Without Vowels Comments: cc: amy king Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable =8AOh, that traveling salesman. And, enthused, I bought away from the long procession of vowels in pajamas=8A from "Where Shall I Wander" by John Ashberry. On the street on Sunday I encountered a slightly drunk black man in a black t-shirt with a grid of twelve variably configured black and white squares. Each white square contained a black capital, block-shaped consonant (D, N, P, X, etc). Each of the black squares were empty. Under the grid - in white scripted letters - was the query: Can You Sell Me A Vowel? Presumably, if one could =8Cbuy=B9 the right white vowels, they could fill the empty black squares. Instead of the sight of edgy, disparate consonants, th= e grid would be transformed into =8Creal=B9 words. Without knowing these words in advance, one might assume, that the grid would reveal a new found harmony, = a kind of microcosm, the creation of a clarity, and the shirt would offer a formal moment - at least - of universal order. I am not sure if because the man was an African-American - so often disenfranchised from so much in this country - that the dissonance in the shirt was made even more striking. I asked him where got the great shirt. It looked brand new. =B3I got it at some festival 10 years ago. Finally decided to put it on today.=B2 I was tempted to ask if I could buy the shirt off his back. But he looked s= o great in it. In fact, I liked the idea of him, this sunny afternoon, as he did, continue to walk down the street and letting the striking shirt - its grid of no vowels and un-conjoined consonants - give the comfortable appearing public a certain edge, a particular vision of =8Creality=B9, a glimps= e between order and not order, words and not words, provision and not provision. A "walking poem", yes, indeed. Stephen Vincent http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ =20 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 16:34:11 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grumman Subject: Re: Grumman's Blog In-Reply-To: <668484.22111.qm@web51413.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I screwed up and posted this as a reply to a post it had nothing to do with. Apologies. So I'm reposting. Today, in MY blog (over a thousand visits in just three years!) I mention having gotten my Comprepoetica file of Small Press Review columns up-to-date. The latest is about Crag Hill's blog. I spend most of it on analyzing a poem Crag composed using first lines from Charles Olson. The entry to the files is here: http://www.geocities.com/Comprepoetica/spr-stuff/index.html My columns, by the way, go back to June 1993, so provide a fairly lengthy record of recent marginal poetry. --Bob ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 19:58:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tisa Bryant Subject: Tisa Bryant Readings and Encyclopedia Project Events in NYC Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear people, Hope to see you at one of these events! Here's the li'l NY tour: Friday, March 2nd, 7pm: Tisa Bryant and Melissa Buzzeo Pete's Candy Store 709 Lorimer St. (between Frost and Richardson) Williamsburg, Brooklyn www.petescandystore.com Friday, March 16 time TBA Tisa Bryant and Lots of Amazing People Small Press Center for Independent Publishing Location TBA Center is at 20 W. 44th Street, Manhattan Friday, March 31, 7pm Encyclopedia Project X-Ref Extravaganza Bowery Poetry Club (more details on the lineup soon, but it's going to be fun!) April 30, 7pm Tisa Bryant and Jennifer Firestone Poetry Project at St. Mark's Church 131 E. 10th Street, Manhattan http://www.poetryproject.com/ May 12, 7pm Encyclopedia Vol. 2 F-K Fundraiser! Galapagos Art Space 70 North 6th Street (between Kent and Wythe) Williamsburg, Brooklyn, NY 11211 718 782-5188 http://www.galapagosartspace.com/ ____________________________________________ The odds of hitting your target go up dramatically when you aim at it. ____________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 05:31:39 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karl-Erik Tallmo Subject: more road signs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" My project American road signs, that has been going on between 1999 and 2006, is now hopefully finished. Seven of the approx. 25 images are uploaded here: http://www.nisus.se/tallmo/other_art/roadsigns/everything.html http://www.nisus.se/tallmo/other_art/roadsigns/please.html http://www.nisus.se/tallmo/other_art/roadsigns/manontroppo.html http://www.nisus.se/tallmo/other_art/roadsigns/accidents.html http://www.nisus.se/tallmo/other_art/roadsigns/colon.html http://www.nisus.se/tallmo/other_art/roadsigns/still_life2.html http://www.nisus.se/tallmo/other_art/roadsigns/had_all_this2.html Karl-Erik Tallmo -- _________________________________________________________________ KARL-ERIK TALLMO, poet, writer, artist, journalist ARTWORK, WRITINGS etc.: http://www.nisus.se/tallmo/ SOUND & MUSIC: http://www.nisus.se/tallmo/sound/ MAGAZINE: http://art-bin.com _________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 00:04:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: Boog City presents Ecopoetics, Thurs. March 1 Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable please forward -------------------- Boog City Celebrates the Renegade Press Ecopoetics (Bowdoinham, Maine) Thurs. March 1, 6:00 p.m., free ACA Galleries 529 W.20th St., 5th Flr. NYC Event will be hosted by Ecopoetics editor Jonathan Skinner Featuring readings and music from Marcella Durand Robert Kocik Michelle Nagai Julie Patton Damian Weber Lila Zemborain And a new book from Robert Kocik There will be wine, cheese, and crackers, too. Curated and with an introduction by Boog City editor David Kirschenbaum ------ *Ecopoetics* http://www.ecopoetics.org Ecopoetics is an annual journal dedicated to exploring creative-critical edges between writing (with an emphasis on poetry) and ecology (the theory and praxis of deliberate earthlings). It is edited and designed by Jonathan Skinner, in Bowdoinham, Maine. The sixth issue will appear this spring. Fre= e pdfs of back issues can be downloaded at the above website. *Performer Bios* **Marcella Durand http://www.bigbridge.org/bigmdurand.htm Marcella Durand is the author of The Anatomy of Oil (Belladonna, 2005), Western Capital Rhapsodies (Faux Press, 2001), City of Ports (Situations, 1999), and Lapsus Linguae (Situations, 1995). She lives in the East Village= . **Robert Kocik http://www.arras.net/circulars/archives/000498.html Robert Kocik's works include AUKSO (Object, 1995) and Overcoming Fitness (Autonomedia, 2001). He founded the Bureau of Material Behaviors in 1996. I= n 1997 he began research in the Sore, Oversensitive, Insecure, and Subtle Sciences, discovering the logosome (key to the sexual transmissibility of artwork) and the prosopath (particulate unit in the relationship between prosody and disease). In 2001 he founded Poetry Outsource (missing social service responding to poets' lack of place in the culture). **Michelle Nagai http://www.treetheater.org/ Composer Michelle Nagai creates site-specific performances, installations, radio broadcasts, dances, and other interactions that address the human state in relationship to its setting. The American Composers Forum, Eyebeam= , Harvestworks, the Jerome and McKnight Foundations, Meet the Composer, and Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute have supported her work. **Julie Patton http://home.jps.net/~nada/patton.htm Julie Patton is a performance artist and writer. She is busy working on various community development/greenspace/sustainability projects under the rubric of Think Green! Her new chapbook Notes for Some (Nominally) Awake is forthcoming. Julie often takes to the road for various collaborative projects with Uri Caine, and is a fellow at Bates College's Green Horizons Project in Maine, where she collaborates with Jonathan Skinner. **Damian Weber http://housepress.org/weber.html Damian Weber, of the House Press collective, edits Source Material in Brooklyn. His latest CD is "It's Not Me & It's Not You & It's Not Dreamy." **Lila Zemborain=20 http://www.eluniversal.com/verbigracia/memoria/N142/creacion.htm Lila Zemborain is the author of Abrete s=E9samo debajo del agua, Usted, Guardianes del secreto, Malvas orqu=EDdeas del mar /Mauve-Sea Orchids (forthcoming from Belladonna Books), and Rasgado. She has authored the book-length essay Gabriela Mistral, Una mujer sin rostro. Lila is the director and editor of the Rebel Road Series, and the curator of the KJCC Poetry Series at New York University. ---- Directions: C/E to 23rd St., 1/9 to 18th St. Venue is bet. 10th and 11th avenues Next event: Thurs. April 12, Corollary Press (Philadelphia) -- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://boogcityevents.blogspot.com/ T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 22:13:26 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Vidaver Subject: Review of Switch & Shift / Post-Prairie by Michael Barnholden (from The Rain) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The following may be of concern to Buffalo List members. Other reviews from the current issue of The Rain Review of Books are now online too: http://www.rainreview.net ... Jon Paul Fiorentino & Robert Kroetsch, eds., Post-Prairie: An Anthology of New Poetry (Vancouver: Talonbooks, 2005) Derek Beaulieu, Jason Christie & Angela Rawlings, eds., Shift and Switch: New Canadian Poetry (Toronto: The Mercury Press, 2005) Reviewed by Michael Barnholden The Rain 4:2 (Summer-Autumn 2006): 4 On January 24, 1975 a Canadian military passenger plane landed at the Winnipeg International Airport. It was late at night and cold—forty below—when approximately one hundred passengers: men, women and children—most wearing T-shirts and jeans—walked across the tarmac into a new life. The plane had left Chile many hours before, after the family members were driven to the airport in Santiago to meet the prisoners who had arrived separately. They all were transported in military vehicles, bringing only as much as they could carry. Their excitement was mixed with dread as aircraft flights in Chile at this time often ended badly for certain of the passengers. They had been told little or nothing depending on the mood of their escorts, only that they were going into exile and they would no longer be welcome in Chile. These men and women were among the first and perhaps luckiest victims of the roll-out phase of neo-liberalism, when Augusto Pinochet aided by the CIA at the behest of large international copper mining interests mounted a coup d’etat against the democratically elected socialist government of Salvador Allende. Lucky, because they had not been “disappeared”. Victims, because many of them had spent the intervening time held in atrocious prisoner of war conditions without charge or trial. Most had no idea whether their families were alive or dead. The Canadian government, under enormous pressure, had hypocritically offered to take a limited number of political prisoners from Chile. The government feared the refugees, who had strenuously protested the nationalization of the copper mines owned by Canadian-based multinationals, would be too far left for Canadian political culture. 9/11/73, the date Pinochet took over in Chile, was one of the first major undertakings that demonstrated the reach of alreadyexisting neo-liberal hegemonies. Poetry anthologies are notoriously difficult, both for what or who is included or excluded. Among recent anthologies there is also the shopworn impulse to anthologize the “new”. Shopworn, because if you are limiting your collection to Canadian poetry—Canadian publishers are restricted in their editorial programs by dependence on grant funding from state agencies—you are pretty much confined to making a case for the new, whether it makes sense or not. The “old” was either unsuccessful or has grown irrelevant, so “new” must replace “best” in an attempt to establish relevance and thus teachability and sales. The poetry anthologies under consideration, Switch and Shift: New Canadian Poetry and Post-Prairie: An Anthology of New Poetry, both signal a recognition that something has already happened and that these are attempts to represent the what of what has happened. The subtitles extend this understanding and expectation. However, it is in the introduction that the case for these “news” must be made. Neither introduction does it adequately. In fact they are fraught with contradiction, which of course is reflected in the choice of poems presented. The three editors in Shift and Switch present three different and competing rationales for their selections: is it the poetry of the margins (Beaulieu) or the under-represented (Christie) or the cornucopia (Rawlings)? The same dynamic is played out in the selections. Because of the consensus default—it must be assumed that all three editors agreed to every inclusion, perhaps only one negative vote was needed for exclusion—you end up with something that is clearly a compromise and not a happy compromise at that. Perhaps this accounts for Christie’s “sleepless nights and nail biting”, but he doesn’t tell us. In Post-Prairie the problem lies with the dual editorship. Although I don’t really think Kroetsch did much more than have the transcribed conversation with Fiorentino, reproduced here as the introduction. Kroetsch seems to contradict his coeditor with statements such as “place is where it’s at” then later “your stubbornly attentive eye, Jon, makes this anthology the real and precise news, the underwater trumpet blast, the lightning-ravaged tree”. These comments sound a lot like the “prairie poem” this anthology is supposed to be “post-”. I suspect Kroetsch is having some fun at his colleague’s expense, but it does serve to outline the problem: the anthology points one way, the poems point other contradictory ways that negate the intent of the introduction. I would argue that some of the poems are in fact “prairie poems” with the lyric “I” outstanding in “his” field, while others, thankfully most, engage with what is newly apprehended: global(capital)ism. It is curious to me that three of the five editors are in both anthologies. I can understand why Kroetsch is not represented in either anthology, but why Rawlings isn’t in Post Prairie seems weird. I’m sure she’s been to Calgary. Which of course is the problem with nationalisms (Canadian) and regionalisms (Prairie): who fits, who doesn’t. Is every poet born or living on the prairies a prairie poet? Can you write a prairie poem somewhere else? What is New Canadian Poetry? What constitutes a Canadian poem? A Canadian? Perhaps instead of bending the poetry to fit their thesis, such as they are, maybe a closer reading of the actually existing poetry would help. There is however, lurking in these two anthologies, another interesting collection. The little story at the beginning of this piece points to a previous 9/11 and the beginnings of globalism or neo-liberalism. If the Writing Class anthology that I coedited back in the nineties can be said to outline responses and resistances to the roll-back phase of neo-liberal globalism, the roll-out phase is chronicled in much of the poetry in these two anthologies. All it needs is a strong introduction and editing. There is a hint in the publisher’s blurb on Post-Prairie which could serve as a better organizing principle than what the editors offer. “This change is marked by the transition of a cultural identity primarily rooted in place to one that is rooted in a rapidly fragmenting, urbanizing, technology-based globalization.” Of course there would have to be decisions made about what constituted a “globalized” poet and that would probably contradict the “Canadian” poet which, as I have pointed out, is pretty much all Canadian publishers can publish unless they figure out ways to break out of the confines of Canadian nationalism. I think that many of the poets in these anthologies have made those decisions and are busy producing poems that engage, resist and subvert globalized capitalism. There are many more not included who have done likewise. That’s the anthology of the “new” that I’d like to see. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 06:04:34 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: justin sirois Subject: K. Lorraine Graham's Moving Walkways chapdisc In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit out now: www.angelfire.com/poetry/thepixelplus/nhlorraine.html K. Lorraine Graham Moving Walkways (chapdisc A this recording has over sixty minutes of poetry tracks - 1. Demons Arrive 2. From* It does not go back 22. From* Terminal Humming 30. From* Some Epistles 31. From* Dear [Blank] I Believe in Other Worlds 32. From* And so for you there is no heartbreak 34. (after Frank O'Hara) Gratitude and love to/for the poet folk of DC and Baltimore. Text versions of these pieces appeared in Mirage#4/Periodical, Submodern Fiction, the DCPoetry.com online anthology, and Rock Heals. it does not go back was originally a Subpoetics Self Publish or Perish project written in response to the 2001 Rand McNally Road Atlas of North America and Mexico. Dear [Blank] I Believe in Other Worlds was published as a pamphlet in 2003 by Phylum Press.Terminal Humming is a 2004 chapbook available from Slack Buddha. Klorraine@gmail.com this chap disc is a limited edition cdr inside a clear dvd case with full color maps on the exterior insert and hand letter pressed interior inserts of the track list and bio by Newlights Press. all discs are autographed by the poet. www.narrowhouserecordings.com . . . . . . . http://www.narrowhouserecordings.com/ a record label primarily interested in contemporary writing, poetics and the political ____________________________________________________________________________________ Finding fabulous fares is fun. Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 02:02:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: CA Conrad Subject: EAR INN reading: Daniel Becker, CAConrad, Douglas Martin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Saturday, March 10th, 3pm at the EAR INN 326 Spring Street (West of Greenwich St.) for full schedule click here: http://www.mbroder.com/ear_inn/03-mar07.htm Daniel Becker CAConrad Douglas Martin hosted by M. Broder ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 06:34:32 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amy king Subject: TONIGHT -- KNOX, QUEYRAS, & BOHM In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MiPOesias presents ~~~ JENNIFER L. KNOX, SINA QUEYRAS, and ROBERT BOHM ~~~ Stain Bar, Brooklyn, NYC February 23, 2007 @ 7 P.M. ~~~~~~~~~ JENNIFER L. KNOX was born and raised in Lancaster, California , where absolutely anything can be made into a bong. Her work is featured in Best American Poetry 2006, and her book of poems, A Gringo Like Me, is available from Softskull Press. http://www.mipoesias.com/2007/knox_jennifer.htm SINA QUEYRAS'most recent collection of poetry, Lemon Hound, was published by Coach House Books in 2006. Last year she edited Open Field: 30 Contemporary Canadian Poets. She is contributing editor to Drunken Boat and co-curator of Belladonna reading series. This year she is visiting professor at Haverford College. Next year she is writer-in-residence at the University of Calgary. She wears a cape whenever possible and keeps a blog: http://lemonhound.blogspot.com. http://www.mipoesias.com/Poetry/queyras_sina.html ROBERT BOHM is a poet and culture writer. He was born in Queens, NY. His new chapbook, Uz Um War Moan Ode, will be published in 2006 by Pudding House Press. His other credits include two books, another chapbook and work published in a variety of print and online publications. http://www.mipoesias.com/September2003/bohm.htm ~~~~~~~~ STAIN BAR 766 Grand Street Brooklyn, NY 11211 (L train to Grand Street Stop, walk 1 block west) 718/387-7840 ~~~~~~~~ Hope you'll stop by! Amy King MiPO Host http://miporeadingseries2007.blogspot.com/ http://www.mipoesias.com ~~~~~~~~ --------------------------------- Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your question on Yahoo! Answers. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 14:47:37 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nicholas Karavatos Subject: South Asian Diaspora Poetry Anthology in English? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Could anyone suggest a good poetry anthology of South Asian diaspora poets writing in English? Also, a complementary request - how about South Asian poets who write in English? Thanks, Nick Nicholas Karavatos Dept of Language & Literature American University of Sharjah PO Box 26666 Sharjah United Arab Emirates _________________________________________________________________ The average US Credit Score is 675. The cost to see yours: $0 by Experian. http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=660600&bcd=EMAILFOOTERAVERAGE ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 10:14:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: susan maurer Subject: no listings from africa Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I have long been upset that there are no listing at all from any of the countries in the various reference books such as POETS MARKET,etc. It doesn't cost to list in them . If anyone has any way of encouraging African publications to participate, please do.susan maurer _________________________________________________________________ Play Flexicon: the crossword game that feeds your brain. PLAY now for FREE. http://zone.msn.com/en/flexicon/default.htm?icid=flexicon_hmtagline ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 10:21:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: susan maurer Subject: Poets Wear Prada Publication Party Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed on march 8 at 6pm at cornelia st cafe new press poets wear prada with be launching with a group reading. this is in nyc and should be entertaining. susan maurer _________________________________________________________________ Win a Zune™—make MSN® your homepage for your chance to win! http://homepage.msn.com/zune?icid=hmetagline ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 10:35:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Ciccariello Subject: Re: T-Shirt Without Vowels In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline I enjoyed this Stephen. It gives me a lot to think about this morning. - Peter http://invisiblenotes.blogspot.com/ On 2/22/07, Stephen Vincent wrote: > > =8AOh, that traveling salesman. And, enthused, I bought away from the lon= g > procession of vowels in pajamas=8A from "Where Shall I Wander" by John > Ashberry. > > On the street on Sunday I encountered a slightly drunk black man in a > black > t-shirt with a grid of twelve variably configured black and white squares= . > Each white square contained a black capital, block-shaped consonant (D, N= , > P, X, etc). Each of the black squares were empty. > > Under the grid - in white scripted letters - was the query: > > Can You Sell Me A Vowel? > > Presumably, if one could =8Cbuy=B9 the right white vowels, they could fil= l the > empty black squares. Instead of the sight of edgy, disparate consonants, > the > grid would be transformed into =8Creal=B9 words. Without knowing these wo= rds > in > advance, one might assume, that the grid would reveal a new found harmony= , > a > kind of microcosm, the creation of a clarity, and the shirt would offer a > formal moment - at least - of universal order. > > I am not sure if because the man was an African-American - so often > disenfranchised from so much in this country - that the dissonance in the > shirt was made even more striking. > > I asked him where got the great shirt. It looked brand new. > > =B3I got it at some festival 10 years ago. Finally decided to put it on > today.=B2 > > I was tempted to ask if I could buy the shirt off his back. But he looked > so > great in it. In fact, I liked the idea of him, this sunny afternoon, as h= e > did, continue to walk down the street and letting the striking shirt - it= s > grid of no vowels and un-conjoined consonants - give the comfortable > appearing public a certain edge, a particular vision of =8Creality=B9, a > glimpse > between order and not order, words and not words, provision and not > provision. > > A "walking poem", yes, indeed. > > Stephen Vincent > http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 08:17:30 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Adam Fieled Subject: Raymond Bianchi on PFS Post MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Check out seven poems from Chicago's Raymond Bianchi on PFS Post: http://www.artrecess.blogspot.com "Ain't there one damn song that can make me break down and cry?" http://www.adamfieled.blogspot.com --------------------------------- Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 11:06:50 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: Re: no listings from africa In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Susan-- It's possible African and other countries might just want to be for African and other countries' writers, many of whom write in languages that are not always "international" so need and want their own forums. Even writing in "international" languages, perhaps a great many people around the world feel that their lives are already invaded enough with American imperialisms in economics/politics/media-- and writing/poetry spaces are ones that would be areas of freedoms from this. "Just what we need! American writers of "resistant" "radical" poetry moving in on our areas of resistance! Why do they think their "liberatory" works will be welcomed where there is Resistance to them imposing themselves ever deeper into every sphere?" (Memories of "Iraqis bearing flowers in Welcome"--and the chasm between the vision and the reality--a salutory cautionary example to bear in mind-) I imagine--as is this is often the case when it occurs-- that journals would be interested in American writers--ones who knew of the writing in other countries-knew the journals and poetry scenes--read them and knew the langauge and culture---so there is a dialogue--rather than just a one way street of impositions which would happen by advertising and being flooded by yet more American products and messages with no interest/connection to a living poetry and culture essaying its continued creative energies and survival. Just because something is "free"--advertising in Poets' Market for example--doesn't neccesarily mean that one doesn't pay a price, if not a very heavy price, not too far down the line. >From: susan maurer >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: no listings from africa >Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 10:14:53 -0500 > >I have long been upset that there are no listing at all from any of the >countries in the various reference books such as POETS MARKET,etc. It >doesn't cost to list in them . If anyone has any way of encouraging African >publications to participate, please do.susan maurer > >_________________________________________________________________ >Play Flexicon: the crossword game that feeds your brain. PLAY now for FREE. > http://zone.msn.com/en/flexicon/default.htm?icid=flexicon_hmtagline _________________________________________________________________ Play Flexicon: the crossword game that feeds your brain. PLAY now for FREE. http://zone.msn.com/en/flexicon/default.htm?icid=flexicon_hmtagline ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 13:18:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Waber Subject: caffeine, nicotine, benzedrine Comments: To: announce MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Caffeine, Nicotine and Benzedrine Artwork and music by Ronnie Cramer Based on a Poem by Dan Waber In this project, artist/composer Ronnie Cramer uses watercolor and audio to interpret written material by poet and multimedia artist Dan Waber. Images of the paintings & mp3 clips from the audio tracks from the CD now online here: http://cramer.org/music/caffeine.htm Enjoy, Dan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 13:24:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Dylan Welch Subject: Re: Haiku In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" There are literally *thousands* of books that teach haiku in Japanese. However, I wouldn't know what books to suggest reading, as most of the haiku books I have are in English. Try visiting a bookstore like Kinokuniya (in a few major U.S. cities) or search online at http://www.amazon.co.jp/ (Japan's Amazon.com) or other similar sites, or ask through the Web sites for the Haiku International Association or the World Haiku Association. Michael -----Original Message----- Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 08:18:00 +0000 From: blacksox@ATT.NET Subject: Haiku A fellow poet Tarre Beach speaks Japanese, and wants to know if there are any books, ( you might suggest) that teach haiku in Japanese. ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 13:53:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Kelleher Subject: OlsonNow Updates Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed New on the Documents Page at OlsonNow: Paul Nelson/The Sound of the Field and Organic Poetry and Dualism and Olson's Antidote Kelly Matthews/Letter toi Maximus From Cassandra http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/olson/blog/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 11:26:45 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lewis LaCook Subject: Hide the pills, how little thing - Xanax Pop, by Lewis LaCook Comments: To: rhizome , netbehaviour , webartery MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hide the pills Inside an hour to go before have to hide the pillbottle have to hide the pills is the broil of gaze ranging across yer flesh selflessly until the past grazing on you sucking the pith of yer silhouette and all of these experiments have been made and failed blisters demure howitzer is it sir the emblem melts with succesive engravings of a peaked devil methamphetamine directory until lighting on the correct recordset smtp server based on ip freely transparent windows with lineage jelly messiah and neomail was a dead end too 91 Words • Lewis LaCook • 02/23/07 • 01:21:29 pm • • Leave a comment • Edit Hot little thing Hot little thing, our eyebrows slant us wicked Hot little thing in a glass of morning milk Hot little thing needs her feelings verified O Hot little thing, no nw messages on the server Hot little thing with thaw thwarted chipper Hot little thing, a morning glass of pus and sky Hot little thing boasts soaring and soreness Hot little thing sending login string O Hot little thing, beware my vicious temper Hot little thing, and my elephantine pride Hot little thing, you want to twist my neck Hot little thing, broken soft on the inside Lewis LaCook Director of Web Development Abstract Outlooks Media 440-989-6481 http://www.abstractoutlooks.com Abstract Outlooks Media - Premium Web Hosting, Development, and Art Photography http://www.lewislacook.org lewislacook.org - New Media Poetry and Poetics http://www.xanaxpop.org Xanax Pop - the Poetry of Lewis LaCook --------------------------------- Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 15:05:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Richard Jeffrey Newman Subject: Persian Literature CFP MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Call For Papers: Persian Literature as (a) World Literature Controlling Question: If Persian literature is not only literature = written in Persian, but also literature written by people who, in or way or = another, claim a Persian heritage and/or who translate Persian literature into = other languages, then Persian literature is being produced right now, all over = the world, in many languages other than Persian. Is it fair, then, to call Persian literature a world literature? If so, what does that label mean = not only for Persian literature in itself, but also for the other = literatures that interact with it, either by virtue of translation or because = writers of Persian descent are producing in the languages of those other = literatures? =A0 For a special, Persian literature edition of ArteNews (www.arteeast.org/artenews/arteeast-artenews.html), the online journal published by ArteEast (www.arteeast.org), whose mission is "to exhibit = the works of artists and filmmakers from the Middle East and its diaspora," = we are soliciting submissions in the following categories: =A0 1. Poetry (3-5 poems): written by Iranians, people of Iranian descent, = or people for whom Persian is their language of composition. The poems need = not have been written originally in English, but any non-English poems must = be accompanied by a strong, literary, English translation. 2. Persian poetry in translation (3-5 poems): from any historical = period; the translator must show proof that he or she has the right to publish = the translations. 3. Brief essays of no more than 1000 words on any aspect of Persian = poetry or literature. 4. Responses of no more than 300-500 words to the controlling question = at the top of this call. =A0 Submission Deadline: March 9, 2007. Please send submissions to: richardjeffreynewman@verizon.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 14:48:37 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: March 8: Woodward, Miller, Gallaher MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey Poetics - I'm excited about the final two readings of the Observable season. They are going to be SOLID, and if you're anywhere near St. Louis, I hope you'll save the dates: March 8 (Woodward, Miller, and Gallaher) and April 5 (Chiasson and Clewell). For March 8th, we have three readers who all have new books in 2006 or 2007. And they're really, really good books. Look them up on Amazon, would you? And forward this, blog this, let people know! Aaron _ _ _ _ _ _ _ March 8, 2007 Observable Readings presents Jon Woodward, John Gallaher, Wayne Miller 8 PM - Bottleworks in Maplewood - FREE Jon Woodward: A steady hail of ink-columns on mind's face- paper: bilaterally symmetrical & small, double -taken (from across the room) as hiding nothing? Wayne Miller: What I'll allow myself to beleive is admittedly not much--the faint mirror of a blank wall, the heart ringing with another's words like the sympathetic vibration of a bell--. John Gallaher: The children are running across the field, each carrying something. Each on his or her spindly legs. The field's a good field. More info, of course, is here: http://observable.org/readings/ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 14:51:17 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: no listings from africa In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > I have long been upset that there are no listing at all from any of the > countries in the various reference books such as POETS MARKET,etc. It > doesn't cost to list in them . If anyone has any way of encouraging African > publications to participate, please do.susan maurer > http://www.sentinelpoetry.org.uk/ Susan - Check out this site for London/ African based Sentinel Magazine (online) and Sentinel Quarterly. That might get you into a network of African based poetry and literary magazines. Stephen Vincent http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 15:26:57 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eric Dickey Subject: Re: no listings from africa In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit To Topos 2005 issue on North African Voices contains contributor info that can help you. For more info: http://oregonstate.edu/dept/foreign_lang/totopos/index.html Stephen Vincent wrote: > I have long been upset that there are no listing at all from any of the > countries in the various reference books such as POETS MARKET,etc. It > doesn't cost to list in them . If anyone has any way of encouraging African > publications to participate, please do.susan maurer > http://www.sentinelpoetry.org.uk/ Susan - Check out this site for London/ African based Sentinel Magazine (online) and Sentinel Quarterly. That might get you into a network of African based poetry and literary magazines. Stephen Vincent http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ --------------------------------- Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 23:23:34 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: blacksox@ATT.NET Subject: Re: Haiku MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 16:19:57 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ozcan turkmen Subject: The Disturbed Tree - [ "Workman of Child" site update] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "The Disturbed Tree - 2003" (HTML & Javascript project in Turkish language) explained at http://www.workmanofchild.com/eng/index.html Ozcan Turkmen --------------------------------- TV dinner still cooling? Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 16:53:24 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jennifer Karmin Subject: Submissions: Version>07 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Version Festival >07 Chicago, IL http://www.versionfest.org A diverse program of activities featuring an art exposition/art fair, multiple art exhibitions, urban events, film screenings, interactive technologies, performances, street art, presentations, talks, workshops, and art rendezvous and action. It coincides with Chicago's Art Chicago weekend and is known as the artists' art fair. Over 5,000 people were in attendance last year to experience the diverse programming encouraging crossover between art disciplines and practices. Version is a massive DIY festival with many components. Choose your own adventure. GUIDELINES: Deadline March 7, 2007. There are NO application or entry fees. Submissions cannot be returned so try to NOT send your only copy of anything. Version has very limited funds and CANNOT guarantee stipends, honorariums or travel fees. We CAN guarantee housing, good food and lodging for visitors from out of town and country. Please go here to use the online submission form. http://www.adoptanamerican.com/version07/submit/add.php Alternatively you may mail your proposals to: Version>07 960 W 31st St Chicago, IL 60608 (include documentation on disc, or DVD with printouts of your proposal) Questions? Email ed@lumpen.com ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 21:44:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Burt Kimmelman Subject: New Chapbook by Burt Kimmelman Now Available Comments: To: poetz@yahoogroups.com, poetrynj@yahoogroups.com Comments: cc: kimmelma@NJIT.EDU, ClaudiaC3@aol.com, Madeline Tiger , TALISMANED@aol.com, "Liu, Timothy" , Holly Scalera , joel s lewis , Marilyn Mohr , MuratNN@aol.com, JAY KAPPRAFF , will rosenthal , jothwade@aol.com, Nathalie Bailey , Kathie and Lance , drhoffner@juno.com, mapst@aol.com, km.reilly@verizon.net, Diane Simmons , Dorothea Hoffner , "Coakley, John" , "Lynch, Robert" , lallyjmf@comcast.net, donahue@NJIT.EDU, "Corrin, Linda" , EdMyers134@aol.com, LBoss79270@aol.com, mariagillan@optonline.net, Carole Stone , msuewillis@aol.com, sanderzpoet@msn.com, forsusanstock@comcast.net, Bruce Frankel , ktlque1@aol.com, DeniseRue59@aol.com, Karen Hubbard , Donald Lev , Sander Zulauf , ljegrey@comcast.net, Jean Gallagher , Stillernikki@aol.com, couperann@aol.com, listings@poetz.com, poetz@yahoogroups.com, poetrynj@yahoogroups.com, Marina Cramer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There Are Words by Burt Kimmelman, published by Dos Madres Press, is now = available, pre-publication date, at http://www.dosmadres.com. A CD of = Kimmelman reading the poems in this chapbook is available separately. =20 "In There Are Words, Kimmelman strives for and often attains 'the simple = / lettering stating / the facts'-his own words."=20 - Samuel Menashe =20 "Burt Kimmelman's poems flourish as they pivot from a repertoire of = reiterated subjects-works of art, natural landscapes, family, the animal = world-to a transfiguring notion of their properties and possibilities. = For over twenty-five years, this practice has produced dynamic patterns = of insight, patterns comprised of recurring figures and forms which = nevertheless shift in their relations to his poetic witness." - Jon Curley, Talisman: A Journal of Contemporary Poetry and = Poetics =20 About the Author: =20 Burt Kimmelman has published four previous collections of poetry -- = Musaics (1992), First Life (2000), The Pond at Cape May Point (2002), a = collaboration with the painter Fred Caruso, and Somehow (2005). For over = a decade, he was Senior Editor of Poetry New York: A Journal of Poetry = and Translation. He is a professor of English at New Jersey Institute of = Technology and the author of two book-length literary studies: The = "Winter Mind": William Bronk and American Letters (1998); and, The = Poetics of Authorship in the Later Middle Ages: The Emergence of the = Modern Literary Persona (1996, paperback 1999). He also edited The Facts = on File Companion to 20th-Century American Poetry (2005).=20 =20 Other authors published by Dos Madres Press include: =20 Annie Finch Norman Finkelstein Michael Heller Robert Murphy Peter O'Leary Henry Weinfield Tyrone Williams and many others =20 About Dos Madres Press: =20 Founded in 2004 by Robert J. Murphy, Dos Madres Press is dedicated to = the belief that the small press is essential to the vitality of = contemporary literature as a carrier of the new voice and new works by = established poets, as well as the older, sometimes forgotten voices of = the past. And in an ever more virtual world, to the creation of fine = books pleasing to the eye and hand. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 21:57:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charlotte Mandel Subject: Forward re Princeton Encyclopedia MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Forwarding fyi: Dear Friends and Colleagues: Do you know or use the Princeton Encyclopedia of Poetry and Poetics in any or all of its three editions (1965, 1974, 1993)? Have you found something useful in it? Do you wish it contained something it lacks? If you don't spend much time with poetry, do you know someone elsewhere who does? Preparation of a fourth edition has begun, and both Roland Greene, who is Editor-in-Chief, and I, as General Editor, would welcome any and all suggestions and thoughts about which entries to keep, which to drop, which to add. We have begun working our way through the 1700 entries of the third edition in order to make these decisions, and that work should occupy us for the next month or so. If you have ideas or suggestions, please send them along during this time (rgreene@stanford.edu or sbc9g@virginia.edu). And please feel free to forward this message far and wide to colleagues working with poetry in any language throughout the United States and in other countries. The Princeton Encyclopedia has users around the world, and we are trying to cast a world-wide net. Gratefully, Steve Stephen Cushman Department of English University of Virginia 219 Bryan Hall P.O. Box 400121 Charlottesville, VA 22904-4121 tel: 434-924-6676 fax: 434-924-1478 email: sbc9g@virginia.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 05:16:14 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Ricejunk2@frontiernet.net" Subject: psssst. 6 issues march-august. hey, what did you just say? speak up! Comments: cc: theotherherald@yahoo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes"; format="flowed" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To Poetics--- Releasing monthly themes for the next 6 issues of ... The Other =20 Herald... Help us keep heralding the art of words in WNY... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- Pssst. Know any writers? Huh? Readers? Themes for coming issues of The =20 Other Herald are as follows: March: The Poetry of Plants April: Craft in Poetry and Poetry in Crafts May: The Moon June: Stories & Poems on Your PC July: Sunshine and Fishy-Lips August: A Gallery of Words: Use of Text in Art ( Submissions requested... of short articles, ideas, writing =20 exercises, poems, comics, black & white art, excerpts from work in =20 progress writing, local books to review, etc. Work from Western New =20 York (term used loosely) given first priority, but all work =20 considered! We respond to every submission. Include submissions in the body of your email text, and please also =20 send your contact information incl. mailing address, to: =20 theotherherald@yahoo.com You may mail submissions, subscription requests, or SASE for sample =20 issue, to: Hidden Valley Farm, Publisher of The Other Herald, P.O. =20 Box 172, Perry NY 14530 Pssssssst? Know any readers? Subscriptions are $10 for more than a =20 year=3D half cover price + stamp for each issue. Send a subscription =20 today to someone you know who loves to read and/or write! Want to sponsor free issues that we mail out randomly on a monthly =20 basis to WNY locations, such as nursing homes, school libraries, =20 community centers...? Small gestures start up great things. Make someone's day today, in =20 whatever way you can. If not with this request, then discover your own =20 ideas and make it happen. Did someone make your day this week? It is =20 even better if you pass it on. Make it a great weekend, everyone, and =20 try to stay warm!!! ) This poem started in an email, to my dear kindred-spirit-friend, and =20 here it is again... Be well, all... What is fortune if not the simple things overlooked. There is not one without something precious. We are not more or less fortunate only in possession of different fortunes. --me Sincerely yours, with a smile, T. F. Rice, Editor The Other Herald...Heralding the art of words in Western New York theotherherald@yahoo.com P.S. To Poetics--- Knock this all you want. Give it your best shot. I =20 can take the abuse. But let me tell you it is more fun to enjoy life =20 and all you can be than to knock everyone and everything just because =20 you can. Do what you can, though. Dont let little old me stop you. But =20 always write on. Write, write, write, because you must. Have a good =20 night, all. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 05:56:41 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Ricejunk2@frontiernet.net" Subject: Re: laundering words In-Reply-To: <66B8ACFE-9212-408A-8B64-9E7C8CEA3A30@mwt.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes"; format="flowed" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Do you think this would work in Buffalo, or in my small town...? Quoting mIEKAL aND : > (anyone taking part in this?...) > > New literary twist added to laundry cycle > Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:08am ET > > NEW YORK, Feb 12 (Reuters Life!) - Doing the laundry has taken on a new > meaning for New Yorkers who can now watch their wash and spin cycles > while listening to poetry and prose. > > Instead of burying their head in a book or heading to the nearest > coffee shop to beat the boredom of laundry, New York writer Emily Rubin > has organised a series of readings called "Dirty Laundry: Loads of > Prose," at laundromats in New York. > > "Just mixing laundry and writing seemed completely natural to me > because truly in life and metaphorically as a writer, everyone has > dirty laundry," said the Brooklyn native who started the series last > year. > > She contemplated holding the readings in various neighborhood venues > including shops but said a laundromat seemed "a natural fit." > > People can wash their dirty laundry while listening to a poem or short > story or just attend the readings. During the first of the 2007 series > writer Carolyn Turgeon read some of her work while people loaded the > dryers and washing machines. > > "It just makes me feel homey and reading is just sort of part of this > regular thing, if that makes sense," she said, adding that a laundromat > doesn't feel as stuffy or artificial as other venues. > > "It feels like you're part of this natural environment," Turgeon explained= . > > Author Marie Carter, who moved from Edinburgh, Scotland to New York in > 2000, likes the idea of entertaining people in a laundromat which is > not usually a center of excitement. > > Some of the people attending the reading felt a bit odd initially but > got used to the idea. > > "It was a little strange, it was kind of wild," said one person. > > Rubin, who calls herself "Mistress of Laundry" is planning more > readings at laundromats across New York and is encouraging people to > come along with or without their dirty washing. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 05:31:07 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Ricejunk2@frontiernet.net" Subject: You must reply to this with a poem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes"; format="flowed" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello all "poetic-al" people. Recently it has been suggested that there is not enough poetry within =20 POETICS discussions. Let's make up for it. Responses to this post must =20 be in the form of a poem, discussing whatever you wish (remember the =20 moderator) and maybe we can all enjoy a little poetry (in the casual =20 non-serious-criticism sense of the word), rather than the opposite =20 which I often read on POETICS when someone has a need to fight and no =20 one at home to do so with. Exasperation can be remedied by writing it =20 all down, and if it is that bad then please throw it away rather than =20 send it out into the world to spread the dark wings of ugliness. We =20 dont have to all like each other, since respect and communication can =20 go on without "like". But i do like you all. And I hope you have an =20 inspiring weekend, while I am slaving away at my "day job"... staring =20 out my office window at the real world. Ahhhh. Stay warm (hard to do =20 these days in Buffalo and beyond) and remember that we could be in the =20 middle of a hurricane. I dont know about you, but I will gladly take =20 the snow any day over that mess and worry. Goodbye all, for now, T. F. =20 Rice Here is my poem for the evening: Untitled: Small pine trees with gaping holes in the snow for shadows whisper their opinions on this season full of change and uncertainty in a foreign language no one wants to hear. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 23:13:56 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: no listings from africa In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i dislike so-called "market-listings" and think that all publications everywhere should be discouraged from listing in them. susan maurer wrote: > I have long been upset that there are no listing at all from any of the > countries in the various reference books such as POETS MARKET,etc. It > doesn't cost to list in them . If anyone has any way of encouraging > African publications to participate, please do.susan maurer > > _________________________________________________________________ > Play Flexicon: the crossword game that feeds your brain. PLAY now for > FREE. http://zone.msn.com/en/flexicon/default.htm?icid=flexicon_hmtagline ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 02:41:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: lifeprose symposium issues MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed lifeprose symposium issues of course one could say one could say of course we could say one could say of course i could say one could say of course one could say we could say of course we could saw we could say of course i could say we could say of course one could say i could say of course we could say i could say of course i could say i could say i think what i was getting at i thought that it might be interesting to my work led me into new people reacted to it and i thought it seemed to me that i should i think what i was trying to say then it occurred to me to think about what i was getting at a lot of people said they liked what i was if it wasn't for the support of i really didn't know what i was doing we really didn't know what we were doing they really didn't know what they were doing they really didn't know what i was doing they really didn't know what we were doing i didn't know what we were doing i think what we were trying to say we think what we were trying to say they thought what i was trying to say they thought what we were trying to say i could have used a little more i could have used a little less of course we couldn't tell them that of course i couldn't tell them that they tried to tell us that we tried to tell them that it seemed funny at the time it seemed serious at the time it still seems we knew it was absurd we knew we were absurd i knew it was absurd i knew i was absurd we were going to do that when i didn't like where i was going i didn't like where we were going they didn't like where i was going we didn't like where they were going we didn't like where we were going if it wasn't for for all i know i was they didn't know that we we knew that they ========================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 00:40:08 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Haiku as a genre In-Reply-To: <8C9243A1FBBE3DA-32C-797B@WEBMAIL-RB09.sysops.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey Michael, Thanks for your comments again. I've been interestedly reading Lee Gurga's "Haiku: A Poet's Guide" and i think i'm learning a lot. There's also a lot a don't agree with in there, at least stuff I don't think I agree with, in that it seems a lot of the time things he reads in his examples as making for good haiku i sometimes question as to whether they even make for good poetry. That having been said, there's a lot to work with here, and while i generally shy away from minimalism, I do like the points raised about haiku being both small and large at the same time that gurga makes. Something you said did spark a bit of introspection for me, though, about this whole idea of a cutting word. For Gurga, it seems almost synonymous with caesura, and you suggested as well that it might be required for the sort of juxtaposition that haiku create. I really dislike that idea, personally. For me, it's a much more natural device to use what I think of as an "internal" grammar to create a syntactic, than to use an "external" one. A good example would be the "green/colors/wax" which, for me, turns on the fact that wax can be read as a verb or a noun, and gives a different sort of image depending on how it's read. Now whether it's such a great poem or a haiku or not aside, i'm curious if you think that such devices can be used in place of caesura. In my reading, Kilbrides "mime/lifting/fog" turns on such a device, and the thing about the poem that for me is so striking is the fact that there are at least three very complex images that are contained in the fact that "mime" can be read as either a verb or a noun, one of which, at least, the image of a mime literally picking up a bank of fog, borders on the surreal, and for me at least evokes a very strong sense of autumn in San Francisco. I don't know why that is, maybe i associate mimes with San Francisco for some reason... Anyway, you say that you think English language poems need a caesura to do their juxtaposition, and i think that's interesting. I read caesurae as being a sort of sonic sledgehammer, and that in itself is a bit of a juxtaposition given the brevity and delicacy--which isn't quite the right word but something close to it--that are required in haiku. Michael Dylan Welch wrote: > Jason, some comments in response to your detailed message. Regarding the features you were incorporating into your verses, it seems to me that you suceeded in some cases, but with the following possible exceptions, at least in haiku terms (see the numbered list that follows below). On the other hand, if you were trying to create borderline haiku, you succeeded, I suppose, but perhaps the citizenship of your verses is still foreign to haiku. Since you asked if I thought they were still haiku or not, I would say no. Somehow, Jerry Kilbride's "mine / lifting /fog" is still haiku, but it is certainly on the fringe. Something in your verses takes them across the border. > > You also make an interesting comment about a "normative" element that can be prescriptive, which I have to fight in my reactions to some poems I read, as it runs the risk of killing the life of the poem. I also have to guard against the label of "haiku" as meaning "good haiku," so you are right to ask if there can be poems that are bad haiku but still haiku -- to which the answer is of course yes. It can have all the "prescribed" elements, and still lack freshness, or be weakly crafted. Your verses, though clearly crafted and brimming with freshness, depart from the prescribed elements enough that I personally have trouble admitting them as haiku. Someone else might feel differently. However, I doubt they'd ever find a place in most of the haiku journals publishing in North America. Such a claim might say something negative about the sensitivity range of the editors in question, but if they are gatekeepers of haiku, it may also say something about what they think is import ant > in haiku. But yes, a poem can be bad but still be a haiku. It can be a haiku if the poet wants to call it that, of course, but discounting that generous approach, it can still be a haiku for other aesthetic reasons (that is, by hitting enough of the "haiku" targets), and fail for not hitting them very well. The haiku journal Haiku Headlines, edited monthly by David Priebe since 1988 until his death last year, is a case in point. The majority of the poems are deathly, as haiku (I've used its poems as examples of "bad haiku" in my workshops -- I have a file folder for large printouts of the poems, even), yet sure, they're still haiku. And even the best haiku journals have "better" or "weaker" poems, though often such rankings are in the eye of the beholder. Then there are the pseudo-haiku poems in books such as *Haikus for Jews* or *Honku*, and so on, which hit the wrong 5-7-5 target, and may have other virtues, but are essentially ignorant of most haiku necessities (or cho ose > to ignore them). If haiku is a "genre," and thus broad rather than overly narrow, then these poems are still "haiku," because they try to hit the target(s) that the poet *thinks* a haiku should hit. To me, they have very little to do with haiku, and are more damaging than helpful to haiku as literature for their perpetuation of misunderstandings, though that's really a separate issue. Actually, though, I think it's hard for a haiku to be a "bad" haiku and yet still successfully *be* a haiku, because the more you "prove" the poems haiku-ness, the more you're going to tip it towards being a good haiku, or at least that's my hunch. There's some philosophical danger, there, because the term "haiku shouldn't be a form of encomium, as you say. Most of Sonia Sanchez's poems offered as haiku are what I would consider *good* nonhaiku. Others might think of them as bad haiku, but that isn't fair to what she's trying to do with vernacular voice. And I could start citing all sorts of ot > her poems and talk about whether they're haiku or not, or whether they're good or bad, but it's hard to know where to start. And I would have only one opinion, of course! > > Anyway, here are some thoughts in reaction to the four criteria you set for yourself: > > 1. Nature references. Yes, you had nature references, but, in "warm santa / ana," using an essentially nonnatural term for the wind tends to distance the poem from the only natural element therein (the wind). A lot of readers wouldn't even know that you're referring to wind, which isn't necessarily a problem, but it is a risk you take. And in the lycra verse, the reference to "plant" is so generic as to not conjure up much of a nature image. Similarly, the reference to rain in the "march flush" poem is fairly slight as a nature reference, and might even be read as nonliteral. But again, I actually don't care about haiku having nature references or not. That's not the aim of haiku, as I understand it. Rather, haiku aims at the seasonal reference, and this happens to embrace nature much of the time, but it's really the season word that matters. > > 2. Seasonality. Again, yes, but not always clearly. The reference to "march" is ambiguous in many ways. Could you mean to march along, as a verb, since you lowercased it? So we don't know for certain if you meant March as the month. More than that, though, March means one season in the northern hemisphere, and an opposite season below the equator, so it's not as seasonally clear or universal as saying "cherry blossoms," for example. I don't sense any season in the lycra verse. I suppose the action of green colors "waxing" (as opposed to waning) could suggest the deepening of summer, but that could be too much of a leap for some readers, especially when the word "wax" is easily interpretted as a noun rather than a verb. And the Santa Ana winds are seasonal, but because they're a regional phenomenon, their function as a seasonal reference not be clear to many readers (and they're not limited to a single season, say, like cherry blossoms, so it has less "sharpness" than other se > asonal references). Also, there's a difference between a seasonal reference and a season word (or kigo). The kigo tradition includes the overtone of allusion to other poems that use the same season word, depending on the season word. This won't happen with every season word, or there can be too many excellent poems for it to be clear which ones you might want to evoke, but in some cases a specific reference can be clear (and of course, allusion can be accomplished outside the season word as well). At the very least, though, the use of specific kigo respectfully invokes the entire tradition of that particular season word, if not a specific poem that has used it before. > > 3. Juxtaposition. In your "march flush" poem, it's too hard to parse the various possible meanings of the words and lines, thus making it hard to narrow down to the ONE "juxtaposition" that a good haiku usually has. Or, in the case of "warm santa / ana [wind] crumples silver / paper," there's no juxtaposition at all, at least not a grammatical one, because the lines read as a single grammatical unit, despite the line breaks (it's not the dreaded "Complete Sentence" you were trying to avoid, but it's still a single grammatical unit). Same with "a cotton lycra weave lifts / from plants it catches." There's actually no grammatical juxtaposition here at all either. And "green / colors / wax" can also be read as a single grammatical unit. It also becomes so minimalist (which is fine, but:) that it is really seeking to do other things than juxtaposition. The juxtaposition that goes on in haiku happens in various ways. To be closer to the Japanese tradition of the kireji, or cutt ing > word, my sense is that the juxtaposition in an English-language haiku needs to be a stronger caesura, or cut. This tends to require the poem to have two grammatically unrelated fragments (not three, and not just one fragment). The juxtaposition is thus grammatical as well as contextual. You have mostly contextual juxtapositions, not grammatical ones. In the extreme, a contextual juxtaposition is like writing about an elephant and a doily, which can be startling and fresh, but there also needs to be a grammatical "juxtaposition" also -- akin to a caesura, but stronger, in the sense of having two fragments that are (most often) grammatically unrelated. For example: > > spring breeze-- > the pull of her hand > as we near the pet store > > 4. Single experience/immediacy. This is where I think you achieved the most -- with single experiences. Immediacy in your verses is clouded, at least for me, by line breaks, by ambiguity as to whether certain words are nouns or verbs (too much ambiguity of syntax, I'd say, at least for haiku, but I guess that *was* what you were aiming at), and by other trouble parsing the grammar. Compare the immediacy of your verses to the immediacy of my verse above. Perhaps it's too "simple" for you or other readers, and you think there's no "there" there. Could be. But by focusing on a tactile sensation (haiku is a poetry of the five senses -- hence the title of one of my haiku workshops, "Come to Your Senses"), the poem gains authenticity and immediacy, and pairs it with a fitting seasonal reference (in this case the naming of the season, which may be the cheapest sort of season word). The season references should usually be more than just a weather report, however, but should have a n e > motional rightness to it. The preceding verse makes no mention of how old the female in the poem is, but nearly all people who hear or read this poem have told me that they imagine a child. Yet why is that? It's not stated at all. Yet it is suggested, through association with spring, the season of youthful beginnings, by breeze, which is lighter than wind or gale, and by the pet store, where we may easily imagine puppies and kittens. Yet all of this is, hopefully, intuitive, and part of the "immediate" gestalt of the poem. This is the sort of immediacy a good haiku is after, and it's best if it's not cluttered by overly clever wordings. As I think Basho said, haiku is like a finger pointing at the moon, and if the finger is too bejeweled, we no longer see the moon. > > Indeed, as Jack Kerouac said, haiku should be as simple as porridge. Though the tone is different, it's like a good joke -- saying only what needs to be said, and nothing more. Like the engine in a car, a haiku should have only necessary parts. And like I say in the haiku workshops I give, a haiku should not be as short as possible, but as short as *necessary*, which makes a world of difference. > > meteor shower . . . > a gentle wave > wets our sandals > > Hope these comments are of help to some. > > Michael > > P.S. Interesting to read that your "green / colors / wax" poem was so directly derived from or inspired by the Kilbride poem. Here's a similar minimalist poem of mine, that may or may not be a haiku (each line is meant to be centered): > > children's > book > sh > elves > > > -----Original Message----- > Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 21:35:29 -0800 > From: Jason Quackenbush > Subject: Re: Haiku as a genre > > Thanks for your comments michael, I think your comments are interesting. I got > some b/c comments about them from charles rossiter too, and I wanted to > clarify something, and loathe as I am to do reads of my own poems, i do want to > explain what i was trying to do with these because i composed them > with the intention of trying to create "borderline" cases of haiku, that is, > poems that fit uncomfortably within the genre. It's a sort of experiment, > and one i'll probably pursue, but in response to your comments i'd like to shed > a little light to see if maybe your greater experience with haiku > might help me with my next foray into this kind of thing. > > so, basically, the task I set myself was to compose several poems that had the > following features: > > 1.) some reference to nature > 2.) some reference to seasonality > 3.) a juxtaposition of elements > 4.) a sense of a single experience or immediacy > > all the while remaining true to my own personal poetic commitments which involve > among other things a certain ambiguity of syntax and the forcing of > multivalence through the use of glued together sentence fragments and the > resistance to the received form that most people know as The Complete > Sentence. So I dashed off those poems to try to see just where the borders of > the haiku might lie. as experiments, i'm not particularly concerned with > how good they are, but i am interested in whether or not you think they're > haiku, and if not, why not? I'll admit that i have a suspicion you have an > so far undiscussed normative element that is in some way prescriptive and > laudatory, that is, i get the impression from some of your statements that > for you "haiku" is as much a name of a genre of poetry as it is a form of > encomium. So there's a second question i have that i haven't yet asked: can > a poem be bad (as is most certainly the case with my fourth example, by far the > weakest of the four in my opinion but also one that i think is very > haiku-like given my understanding of the genre) and still be a haiku? and to > that point, what makes a bad haiku bad while allowing it to remain a haiku? > > toward that end: > > rain on > march flush > on the student body > > relies on several puns, the first the fact that march is a verb, a noun, and a > Month (and from that seasonality); that "the student body" can be > either a group of students or the body of a particular student; and finally that > flush can either mean against and adjacent to (self-referencing the > juxtaposition of the outdoors of a rain on a group of marching students) and the > very intimate image of a young persons body that is "flushed" for > some reason. > > warm santa > ana crumples silver > paper > > is meant to turn on any number of things, but the primary turn is the one that > you seem to have missed that while ana is a female name, and santa is a > bearded guy who brings presents, 'santa ana' is the name of a kind of warm wind > that happens in the autumn and spring in southern california. other > things i tried to pack in there is the traditional. so this one was really > playing with the idea of genre by attempting to juxtapose seasons (autumn > winter spring) while the other images juxtapose age (the bearded old man with > the young girl exuberantly ripping paper). > > a cotton lycra weave lifts > from plants it catches > > I won't comment any further on this one, Murat gave it precisely the reading i'd > intended and i'd like to thank him for it, except to point out that > part of the "juxtaposition" is the fact that cotton is a "natural" material > derived from a low growing shrub that has sticks that could easily catch a > garment, and lycra which is one of that is wholly synthetic made out of chains > of polymers. both are the most widely used fibers in textiles of their > respective types (synthetic or natural) and a large portion of garments worn in > north america are made out a cotton/lycra fabrics. Also, while i went > looking for pictures to show you, i found out that lycra is actually a brand > name, and the etymology of cotton is from the arabic al qutun, which > while neither here nor there poetically, might reveal more meaning if delved > into more deeply. > > finally the last, and I think weakest, of the four i posted. It's interesting > that you mentioned > mime > lifting > fog > > because my > green > colors > wax > > is a semi-procedural, aleatorical poem derived from kilbride's poem (which i > like an awful lot, btw). > > what i did was move all the vowels in kilbrides poem back in the mouth > > so from the dipthong in mime /aI/, i got the dipthong /iu/. I couldn't think of > a word for that, so i cheated and shortened it to /i/ > from the /I/ in lifting, i got to the /uh/ of colors > and from the ah in fog, i got the the aaa in wax. (there really ought to be an > easy way to type IPA characters). > > so from there it was just a matter of fitting consonants around the vowels until > I got a sequence of words that i liked. my problem with this one is > that it stinks of the sort of cleverness that i generally don't like in poetry > and that seems to be the stock in trade of writers like Billy Collins > for example, but that was done well (thanks to the heavy injection of humanity) > by Ted Berrigan, so I let this one live. > > basically, it all turns on the double meaning of "grean" "colors" and "wax" if > green is a noun, colors is a verb and wax is a noun, you have an image > of a crayon being made. if colors is the noun, green is an adjective, and wax is > the verb, you have the image of flowering plants as the green of > spring spreads. alternately, you could have green and wax as nouns, and colors > as the verb, but read wax as the subject and green as the object, which > is an image of someone using a crayon. all of which connote young life and > growth. but again, i think this one is mostly crap primarily because there > isn't much of an image in it, and i generally prefer short poems with strong > images that aren't as necessary in longer pieces. > > ugh. even though i had a reason to do it, that's still not fun to do. sorry to > inflict you all with my explanations. Basically none of these are > great, but i would like to know michael, seeing how i read them from my > standpoint on reading poetry, are they haiku do you think? are they the > borderline cases i intended them to be? and if they aren't, do you think you > could point me at some borderline cases, or perhaps some people who push > at what haiku can and write haiku that might be of questionable pedigree? > > also, to my earlier point, i would LOVE to see an example of something you think > is a BAD haiku that is still successfully haiku. > > thanks again for the comments on my four macedonia/zappai/maybe-haiku/ > ________________________________________________________________________ > Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 01:38:21 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Anal Canadian hockey statistics poem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ------------------------------------ ANAL CANADIAN HOCKEY STATISTICS POEM ------------------------------------ Below is a definition of what an average NHL team is and how many points it earns. The conclusion is that if an NHL team has played N games and has y overtime losses then, were it a perfectly average team, it would have earned N+y points in the standings. Overtime games, where the winner gets 2 points and the loser gets 1 point, introduce some 'inflation' in the standings. The value of the below idea is that it measures the amount of inflation overtime games introduce and provides an easy way to calculate whether a team is above or below average in its play. You add the number of games played to the number of overtime losses. That tells you how many points an average team would have that's played that many games and has that many overtime losses. It used to be that a team playing "five hundred hockey" would have earned N points after playing N games. Calling it 'five hundred hockey' is kind of meaningless, given the existence of 3 point games. Calling it 'average hockey' is better. ---------------------------- WHAT IS AN AVERAGE NHL TEAM? ---------------------------- Definition: An average team wins as many games in regulation time as it loses in regulation time, and wins as many games in overtime as it loses in overtime. Suppose a team is average according to our definition and that it wins x games in regulation time and wins y games in overtime. Then, since it's average, it loses x games in regulation time and loses y games in overtime. How many points did it earn? From its x wins in regulation time, it earns 2x points. From its y wins in overtime, it earns 2y points. From its y losses in overtime, it earns y points. So, overall, it earns 2x + 2y + y = 2x + 3y points. How many points did it surrender? From its x losses in regulation time, it surrendered 2x points. From its y losses in overtime, it surrendered 2y points. From its y wins in overtime, it surrendered y points. So, overall, it surrendered 2x + 2y + y = 2x + 3y points. Our definition of an average team implies that it earns as many points as it surrenders. ----------------------------------------------------- HOW MANY POINTS DOES AN AVERAGE TEAM EARN IN N GAMES? ----------------------------------------------------- How many points does an average team earn in N games? Suppose it wins x games in regulation-time and wins y games in overtime. Then, since it's average, it loses x games in regulation-time and loses y games in overtime. x + y + x + y = N The above equation just counts the number of games. Now we do some algebra on the equation. 2x + 2y = N x + y = N/2 x = N/2 - y We have seen that it earns 2x + 3y points. Points = 2x + 3y Now we substitute: Points = 2(N/2 - y) + 3y Points = N - 2y + 3y Points = N + y ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 09:08:53 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: a classic Bern Porter story making the rounds Comments: To: spidertangle@yahoogroups.com Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed KNOX'S PROPHET Someone's been reading Bern Porter By CHRIS THOMPSON February 7, 2007 1:12:27 PM http://www.thephoenix.com/article_ektid33269.aspx THINKING AHEAD: Creating Maine, forty years ago. A Maine native and longtime resident of Belfast, Bern Porter died =20 there in 2004 at the age of 93. His life and its creative output =97 =20 ranging from art, science, and poetry to literature, publishing, and =20 economic planning =97 read like a map for a road nobody else would =20 notice, let alone imagine following. But here we are now, stepping =20 right along it as he imagined. After college, a budding career in physics got young Porter drafted =20 to work on the Manhattan Project. The Hiroshima bombing made him =20 aware of the fruits of his labors, so he quit. As Cold War minds =20 divided the planet, Porter was at work probing and inventing =20 connections between all manner of creative endeavors, from art and =20 science to the poetry he felt certain would bind them. Many of these =20 pursuits didn=92t have names for themselves yet, but soon would: Mail =20= Art, Sound Art, Found Poetry, and Concrete Poetry =97 he played a role =20= in all of them. He also found time, in 1968, to get himself hired, thanks to his =20 research background, as a consultant to the Knox County Regional =20 Planning Commission to write their master plan for economic development. But soon, the commission and the State Planning Office in Augusta =20 realized they=92d made a mistake. The idealistic Porter imagined =20 nothing less than the total reinvention of the world, beginning in =20 downeast Maine. His draft came in at 700 pages =97 the commission would =20= later cut it down substantially and use almost none of it. But that didn=92t stop Porter from treating it as a magnum opus, =20 laboring over the minute details as well as their overarching =20 arguments. He mailed it to dozens of major libraries throughout =20 America with a note on the title page: =93Written by Bernard H. Porter, =20= but extensively cut up, mutilated, re-edited to point of uselessness =20 by the Commission members.=94 His plan was prescient and freakish at the same time. It saw that New =20= England=92s towns were slowly deteriorating as they gradually lost the =20= ability to govern themselves. Control over local economies, he =20 warned, was drifting away from local businesses and politicians in =20 the direction of larger business chains based in big cities where =20 executives cared only about profits. In addition, he argued, Maine =20 was losing control over itself because of the rising number of =20 wealthy outsiders who were buying property and flocking to the state =20 in the summers but whose financial engagements and investments (apart =20= from property taxes) remained elsewhere. This, in Porter=92s view, put a split between money and government and =20= also dramatically widened the gulf between a smaller group of moneyed =20= Mainers and a burgeoning =93underclass.=94 Where he really got radical was in his proposed solution. He =20 advocated quick and substantive investment in a range of processed =20 items that Knox County residents and businesses might focus on =20 producing: everything from eggs and sea moss to paper and fabric. His =20= real insight, and this was no doubt what sunk his plan, was to =20 emphasize =97 remember this is forty years ago =97 massive investment in = =20 technology here in Maine: =93new ventures in publishing, smelting, =20 cement products, precision machinery, deep-sea terminals, =20 prefabricated houses, electronics, development laboratories, =20 pharmaceutical plants, refineries, and research institutions that =20 [Porter] called =91Think Factories.=92=94 And the state would need a =20 totally revamped educational system to prepare young Mainers for the =20 technological age. Then, before Philip Morris NaPier would make it possible for such =20 candidacies to be taken seriously, Porter =97 who had published Henry =20= Miller and Anais Nin, run a gallery in Sausalito that helped catalyze =20= the emerging Bay Area arts scene, worked as a newsman in Guam, and =20 contributed his two cents to three of the major technological =20 breakthroughs of the 20th century (the atomic bomb, the Saturn moon =20 rocket, and the television) =97 ran for governor. And =97 this is the best part =97 as a Republican! But without money ormoneyed connections, he had to drop out. And Knox =20= County wasn=92t interested in becoming one of the information age=92s =20= global hubs. So he founded his =93Institute for Advanced Thinking=94 on =20= the grounds of his home in Belfast =97 a place where, up until the time =20= he had to move to the Tall Pines Nursing Home in 2003, anyone without =20= an advanced degree could pitch a tent, use the horizontal orgone =20 platform, and collaborate with other visitors, if there were any, in =20 the advancement of thinking. As long as you stayed out of Bern=92s way. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 09:25:03 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: laundering words In-Reply-To: <20070224055641.bknd7t9a576s8kcc@webmail.frontiernet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Any initiative which gets innovative poetry out of the university & exposes random folks to the possibilities is worth the effort. It's one thing to present your work in front of people who are familiar with such work & quite another to do it in places like laundromats. I have a friend who did a series of art installations in laundromats in the midwest & she had fascinating stories to tell. (Considering her "installation" was hundreds of pancakes made on site & fastened to the walls it must have made quite the impression..) ~mIEKAL On Feb 23, 2007, at 11:56 PM, Ricejunk2@frontiernet.net wrote: > Do you think this would work in Buffalo, or in my small town...? > > > Quoting mIEKAL aND : > >> (anyone taking part in this?...) >> >> New literary twist added to laundry cycle >> Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:08am ET >> >> NEW YORK, Feb 12 (Reuters Life!) - Doing the laundry has taken on >> a new >> meaning for New Yorkers who can now watch their wash and spin cycles >> while listening to poetry and prose. >> >> Instead of burying their head in a book or heading to the nearest >> coffee shop to beat the boredom of laundry, New York writer Emily >> Rubin >> has organised a series of readings called "Dirty Laundry: Loads of >> Prose," at laundromats in New York. >> >> "Just mixing laundry and writing seemed completely natural to me >> because truly in life and metaphorically as a writer, everyone has >> dirty laundry," said the Brooklyn native who started the series last >> year. >> >> She contemplated holding the readings in various neighborhood venues >> including shops but said a laundromat seemed "a natural fit." >> >> People can wash their dirty laundry while listening to a poem or >> short >> story or just attend the readings. During the first of the 2007 >> series >> writer Carolyn Turgeon read some of her work while people loaded the >> dryers and washing machines. >> >> "It just makes me feel homey and reading is just sort of part of this >> regular thing, if that makes sense," she said, adding that a >> laundromat >> doesn't feel as stuffy or artificial as other venues. >> >> "It feels like you're part of this natural environment," Turgeon >> explained. >> >> Author Marie Carter, who moved from Edinburgh, Scotland to New >> York in >> 2000, likes the idea of entertaining people in a laundromat which is >> not usually a center of excitement. >> >> Some of the people attending the reading felt a bit odd initially but >> got used to the idea. >> >> "It was a little strange, it was kind of wild," said one person. >> >> Rubin, who calls herself "Mistress of Laundry" is planning more >> readings at laundromats across New York and is encouraging people to >> come along with or without their dirty washing. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 11:38:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Waber Subject: decision tree invite Comments: To: announce@logolalia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii 10 Are you a visual poet? If yes, GOTO line 20 If no, GOTO line 70 20 Would you be interested in having free online gallery space (.gif, .jpg, .png, .wmv, .mov, .mpeg, .swf, .avi) for your visual poetry? If yes, GOTO line 30 If no, GOTO line 70 30 Would you find value in a forum for international discourse on matters related to visual poetry that included message threading, the ability to include and view attachments (.pdf, .doc, .aiff, .bmp, .htm, .mp3, .wav, and much much more) within posts, community editable event calenders, user profiles, private messaging, post filtering, friend lists, mutual friend identification, etc.? If yes, GOTO line 40 If no, GOTO line 70 40 Would you be able to add value to a forum for international discourse on matters related to visual poetry by providing content, by actively engaging in conversation threads, by moderating a group, by administrating a sub-forum devoted to a specific area of your interest/expertise, and/or otherwise being the part of the iceberg of users who creates rather than consumes? If yes, GOTO line 50 If no, GOTO line 70 50 Do you have some free time in your schedule over the course of the next couple of weeks to do some beta testing (creating your profile, making test postings, just generally trying to break things and learn the system so you can help explain things to others, invite some others you think may have missed this invitation but would be good candidates, low-intensity futzing around and reporting back)? If yes, GOTO line 60 If no, GOTO line 70 60 Great! Send an email with your interest to your favorite word, whatever that may be, at logolalia.com and I'll point you to the place where alpha testing has already begun. Forward this message freely. GOTO line 80 70 Darn. Oh well, thank you for your time, watch this space for the announcement of this project going live. Forward freely. 80 END Regards, Dan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 11:29:11 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Vincent Subject: Re: a classic Bern Porter story making the rounds In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable =20 Where to go, what to do, when you are Bern Porter: a personal biography by James Erwin Schevill. Gardiner, Me.: Tilbury House, 1992. I have somehow misplaced my copy of this. I expect Jim Schevill explores th= e relationship between Porter, Kenneth Rexroth, Georges Varda and other innovative artists and writers associated with the San Francisco Renaissanc= e of the 1940's. (Schevill - poet and playwright, grew up in the Bay Area, wa= s head of the SF State Poetry Center in the early sixties, before he moved to teach at Brown for the rest of his teaching career. Interestingly, perhaps= , another local, Jess, Robert Duncan's partner, also worked on the Manhattan project. Whether or not Jess and Porter knew each other at all well, I do not know. It is also curious how this group of genuinely innovative folk= s after the war do get overshadowed by arrival and emergence of the Beats, an= d ther publicity bandwagon that followed - of which, say, Duncan never appeared comfortable, tho a kind of bridge figure. Curious, but not surprisingly, the SF Renaissance generation was much more attached to the European bohemian traditions, where the Beats were much more enthralled wit= h the Far East - Buddhist meditation and artistic practice. Tho someone like Rexroth was clearly omnivorous in terms of his awareness and incorporation of multiple, global literary strands. It would have been interesting - and probably have been of great local valu= e - if Porter had stayed in the Bay Area. His world up in Maine - whacky as i= t could be - is quite phenomenal. Stephen Vincent http://stephenvincent.net/blog/ > KNOX'S PROPHET > Someone's been reading Bern Porter > By CHRIS THOMPSON > February 7, 2007 1:12:27 PM >=20 > http://www.thephoenix.com/article_ektid33269.aspx >=20 > THINKING AHEAD: Creating Maine, forty years ago. >=20 > A Maine native and longtime resident of Belfast, Bern Porter died > there in 2004 at the age of 93. His life and its creative output =8B > ranging from art, science, and poetry to literature, publishing, and > economic planning =8B read like a map for a road nobody else would > notice, let alone imagine following. But here we are now, stepping > right along it as he imagined. >=20 > After college, a budding career in physics got young Porter drafted > to work on the Manhattan Project. The Hiroshima bombing made him > aware of the fruits of his labors, so he quit. As Cold War minds > divided the planet, Porter was at work probing and inventing > connections between all manner of creative endeavors, from art and > science to the poetry he felt certain would bind them. Many of these > pursuits didn=B9t have names for themselves yet, but soon would: Mail > Art, Sound Art, Found Poetry, and Concrete Poetry =8B he played a role > in all of them. >=20 > He also found time, in 1968, to get himself hired, thanks to his > research background, as a consultant to the Knox County Regional > Planning Commission to write their master plan for economic development. >=20 > But soon, the commission and the State Planning Office in Augusta > realized they=B9d made a mistake. The idealistic Porter imagined > nothing less than the total reinvention of the world, beginning in > downeast Maine. His draft came in at 700 pages =8B the commission would > later cut it down substantially and use almost none of it. >=20 > But that didn=B9t stop Porter from treating it as a magnum opus, > laboring over the minute details as well as their overarching > arguments. He mailed it to dozens of major libraries throughout > America with a note on the title page: =B3Written by Bernard H. Porter, > but extensively cut up, mutilated, re-edited to point of uselessness > by the Commission members.=B2 >=20 > His plan was prescient and freakish at the same time. It saw that New > England=B9s towns were slowly deteriorating as they gradually lost the > ability to govern themselves. Control over local economies, he > warned, was drifting away from local businesses and politicians in > the direction of larger business chains based in big cities where > executives cared only about profits. In addition, he argued, Maine > was losing control over itself because of the rising number of > wealthy outsiders who were buying property and flocking to the state > in the summers but whose financial engagements and investments (apart > from property taxes) remained elsewhere. >=20 > This, in Porter=B9s view, put a split between money and government and > also dramatically widened the gulf between a smaller group of moneyed > Mainers and a burgeoning =B3underclass.=B2 >=20 > Where he really got radical was in his proposed solution. He > advocated quick and substantive investment in a range of processed > items that Knox County residents and businesses might focus on > producing: everything from eggs and sea moss to paper and fabric. His > real insight, and this was no doubt what sunk his plan, was to > emphasize =8B remember this is forty years ago =8B massive investment in > technology here in Maine: =B3new ventures in publishing, smelting, > cement products, precision machinery, deep-sea terminals, > prefabricated houses, electronics, development laboratories, > pharmaceutical plants, refineries, and research institutions that > [Porter] called =8CThink Factories.=B9=B2 And the state would need a > totally revamped educational system to prepare young Mainers for the > technological age. >=20 > Then, before Philip Morris NaPier would make it possible for such > candidacies to be taken seriously, Porter =8B who had published Henry > Miller and Anais Nin, run a gallery in Sausalito that helped catalyze > the emerging Bay Area arts scene, worked as a newsman in Guam, and > contributed his two cents to three of the major technological > breakthroughs of the 20th century (the atomic bomb, the Saturn moon > rocket, and the television) =8B ran for governor. >=20 > And =8B this is the best part =8B as a Republican! >=20 > But without money ormoneyed connections, he had to drop out. And Knox > County wasn=B9t interested in becoming one of the information age=B9s > global hubs. So he founded his =B3Institute for Advanced Thinking=B2 on > the grounds of his home in Belfast =8B a place where, up until the time > he had to move to the Tall Pines Nursing Home in 2003, anyone without > an advanced degree could pitch a tent, use the horizontal orgone > platform, and collaborate with other visitors, if there were any, in > the advancement of thinking. As long as you stayed out of Bern=B9s way. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 13:21:18 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Fwd: reading friday march 2: atlanta @ apache cafe MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit And one wonderful poet! agj --- Deborah Poe wrote: > From: "Deborah Poe" > To: > Subject: reading friday march 2: atlanta @ apache > cafe > Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 15:51:05 -0500 > > Writerfolk- > > > > I hope to see you at this reading. And please feel > free to forward. > > > > http://thesoandsoseries.blogspot.co > > m/ > > > > Kindest regards, Deborah > > --- ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss an email again! Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 14:30:03 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: heidi arnold Subject: Re: You must reply to this with a poem In-Reply-To: <20070224053107.fbnhwbf82lhcws8g@webmail.frontiernet.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline -- was inspired by Rice's poem -- here's a rough draft i wrote, needs work the drug tippled gives the world-milk when snow falls and day turns to night a rembrandt exists for the canvas of one whose eyes are cloaked from above -- formaldehyde and silence are forming the extremest dust in a whirlwind -- i remember what happened before i swallow -- heidi On 2/24/07, Ricejunk2@frontiernet.net wrote: > > Hello all "poetic-al" people. > Recently it has been suggested that there is not enough poetry within > POETICS discussions. Let's make up for it. Responses to this post must > be in the form of a poem, discussing whatever you wish (remember the > moderator) and maybe we can all enjoy a little poetry (in the casual > non-serious-criticism sense of the word), rather than the opposite > which I often read on POETICS when someone has a need to fight and no > one at home to do so with. Exasperation can be remedied by writing it > all down, and if it is that bad then please throw it away rather than > send it out into the world to spread the dark wings of ugliness. We > dont have to all like each other, since respect and communication can > go on without "like". But i do like you all. And I hope you have an > inspiring weekend, while I am slaving away at my "day job"... staring > out my office window at the real world. Ahhhh. Stay warm (hard to do > these days in Buffalo and beyond) and remember that we could be in the > middle of a hurricane. I dont know about you, but I will gladly take > the snow any day over that mess and worry. Goodbye all, for now, T. F. > Rice > > Here is my poem for the evening: Untitled: > > Small pine trees with > gaping holes in the snow for shadows > whisper their opinions on this > season full of change and uncertainty > in a foreign language > no one wants to hear. > -- www.heidiarnold.org http://peaceraptor.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 21:54:13 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: JT Chan Subject: Poetry Sz Issue 22 now online Comments: To: Women Poets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, Poetry Sz : demystifying mental illness, Issue 22, is now online at http://poetrysz.blogspot.com . Featuring the work of the following poets: Dorothy Mienko Barry Seiler Lisa Gordon Stephen Mead Michael P. Workman T. Lewis Olga Lalić-Krowicka Joel Fry Dave Ruslander Anna Kaye Forsyth Keith Nunes Submissions for subsequent issues are welcome. Send 4-6 poems, and a short bio, to poetrysz@yahoo.com . Please read the submission guidelines before submitting. thanks. regards J Chan editor, PoetrySz ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 07:06:41 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beckett Subject: Fwd: New Books from Otoliths MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable am pleased to announce the first of what will be a quarterly round of new=20 books from Otoliths ; & I'm extremely pleased that the four books in this =20 initial launch are wonderful offerings by four exceptional poets. =20 Rather than drool with unadulterated joy any further, I'll just point you t= o=20 the Otoliths shopfront =E2=80=94 _http://www.lulu.com/l_m_young_=20 (http://www.lulu.com/l_m_young) =E2=80=94 where you can also find other bo= oks & chapbooks plus print=20 versions of the magazine, & would suggest to U.S. residents that, rather th= an=20 use couriers, they select the USPS Media Mail default as the means of deliv= ery=20 since it's economical &, from our experience, efficient.=20 The individual webpages for each of the books is given below. =20 Nico Vassilakis: DIPTYCHS=20 60 pages, full colour=20 $15.00=20 webpage: _http://www.lulu.com/content/670787_=20 (http://www.lulu.com/content/670787) =20 "The individual pieces in this book are tiny visual poems that examine the=20= =20 materiality of visible language and find beauty by looking at that language=20 from unexpected vantage points. Nico has created each of these poems throug= h a =20 sequence of steps that included capturing video of text, editing and=20 modifying that video (which included changing the color), capturing screens= hots of=20 the video, and cutting and putting these final pieces together in little=20 diptychs consisting of one rectangle of prepared text atop another. To some= degree,=20 the results are the children of Nico's important videopoetic work, Concrete= :=20 Movies, released in 2005."=20 =E2=80=94from the introduction by Geof Huth =20 Jordan Stempleman: What's the Matter =20 112 pages=20 $10.00=20 webpage: _http://www.lulu.com/content/629216_=20 (http://www.lulu.com/content/629216) =20 "Maximizing the tension of line breaks, making the most of each word's=20 nuances, Jordan Stempleman creates a stunning landscape of precision and de= licacy.=20 There are gorgeous moments here, and they always "begin with the actual=20 condition"=E2=80=94this book constitutes a commitment to the beauty of the=20= world, and a=20 new instance of it." =20 =E2=80=94 Cole Swensen =20 "In this impressive, replete collection, Jordan Stempleman takes us=20 repeatedly to this place of contemplation, where only a few rare words are=20= necessary.=20 We are invited to a course of thinking that locates intensity without=20 demanding it=E2=80=94for therein lies the fabled difference between an expl= oratory and=20 settled poetics, to open out and out again upon present history. This is, q= uite=20 simply, a wonderful book." =20 =E2=80=94 Paul Hoover=20 harry k stammer: tents =20 60 pages, including colour =20 $15.00 =20 webpage: _http://www.lulu.com/content/629289_=20 (http://www.lulu.com/content/629289) =20 "Make no mistake about it: harry k. stammer is one of the boldest pioneers=20 in contemporary experimental poetry=E2=80=94and one of the most successful.= His new=20 work tents is edgy but accessible; challenging but rewarding. stammer mixe= s a=20 sort of poetic cubism with wordplay, startling typography, and a wide array= =20 of other adventurous techniques with creative intensity rarely witnessed. I= n=20 this singular text, the reader is confronted by a dizzying maelstrom of=20 meaning and image. Kaleidoscopic and impressionistic, this interpretation o= f our=20 postindustrial, postmodern society is a must for any serious reader of toda= y's=20 poetry." =20 =E2=80=93Philip Primeau , PERSISTENCIA* PRESS=20 Vernon Frazer: BODIED TONE=20 132 pages=20 $10.00=20 webpage: _http://www.lulu.com/content/629262_=20 (http://www.lulu.com/content/629262) =20 " BODIED TONE is terrific=E2=80=94the rhythmic vitality is just that, full=20= of life,=20 but it is seductive too; one gets caught up in the percussive musicality of= =20 the phrasing . It's a driving musicality=E2=80=94more bebop than balladry, f= or sure." =20 =E2=80=94 Lyn Hejinian=20 So why not splurge a little & be swept up by pleasure.=20 Cheers=20 Mark Young=20 Editor, Otoliths=20


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AOL now offers free=20 email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at=20 http://www.aol.com. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 08:42:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aryanil Mukherjee Subject: Re: You must reply to this with a poem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit excellent, I'm with it. POETICS is all about war, politics, book-review, death-news, blasphemy, anne nicole, poetry-reading, self-promotion, book-sale, colons stuffed with enormous literary waste leading to intellectual dysentery, POETICS is also a lot about POETICS but rarely about p o e t r y or p o e m s lift your trampled face for the afternoon gold-plaited hour that has a cage feathers with remnant odor warm breasts, mini red cut open and pulled out of snow heart the shepherd's quick, so are his cattle dust rises wating for you at a railroad crossing bogies so slow tortuous sleek heavy eternal repetitive cold murderer of time serialized beauty in the desert I saw commas after Camel case calendars chatting with maps waste papers flying end up chasing that sandsick lad a cat's cry fades out with the light we went so far to sing to the birds ----- Original Message ----- From: "heidi arnold" To: Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 2:30 PM Subject: Re: You must reply to this with a poem > -- was inspired by Rice's poem -- > > here's a rough draft i wrote, needs work > > the drug tippled > gives the world-milk > when snow falls > and day turns to > night > > a rembrandt exists > for the canvas of one > whose eyes are cloaked > from above -- > > formaldehyde > and silence > are forming the extremest dust > in a whirlwind -- > > i remember what happened before i swallow > > -- heidi > > On 2/24/07, Ricejunk2@frontiernet.net wrote: >> >> Hello all "poetic-al" people. >> Recently it has been suggested that there is not enough poetry within >> POETICS discussions. Let's make up for it. Responses to this post must >> be in the form of a poem, discussing whatever you wish (remember the >> moderator) and maybe we can all enjoy a little poetry (in the casual >> non-serious-criticism sense of the word), rather than the opposite >> which I often read on POETICS when someone has a need to fight and no >> one at home to do so with. Exasperation can be remedied by writing it >> all down, and if it is that bad then please throw it away rather than >> send it out into the world to spread the dark wings of ugliness. We >> dont have to all like each other, since respect and communication can >> go on without "like". But i do like you all. And I hope you have an >> inspiring weekend, while I am slaving away at my "day job"... staring >> out my office window at the real world. Ahhhh. Stay warm (hard to do >> these days in Buffalo and beyond) and remember that we could be in the >> middle of a hurricane. I dont know about you, but I will gladly take >> the snow any day over that mess and worry. Goodbye all, for now, T. F. >> Rice >> >> Here is my poem for the evening: Untitled: >> >> Small pine trees with >> gaping holes in the snow for shadows >> whisper their opinions on this >> season full of change and uncertainty >> in a foreign language >> no one wants to hear. >> > > > > -- > www.heidiarnold.org > http://peaceraptor.blogspot.com/ > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.412 / Virus Database: 268.18.3/699 - Release Date: 2/23/2007 > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 08:59:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Richard Jeffrey Newman Subject: Re: You must reply to this with a poem In-Reply-To: <20070224053107.fbnhwbf82lhcws8g@webmail.frontiernet.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Okay, I'll bite. The poem I have finished most recently: Reproductive Rights She said, "I felt invaded by a creature from Mars." He thought, "Invaded. By a body like mine. I am not a creature from Mars." Then he thought, "Maybe she means the fetus." Rich Newman ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 06:06:59 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: EH Subject: Sartre quote MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Perhaps a bit off topic, I'm looking for the source of a sixties interview with Sartre which produced this statment: "nous sommes des animaux sinistre": "we are shipwrecked animals". Any assistance is of course appreciated. Thank you. Eric Hoffman --------------------------------- Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 09:53:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: New Books from Otoliths (posted on behalf of Mark Young) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am pleased to announce the first of what will be a quarterly round of new books from Otoliths ; & I'm extremely pleased that the four books in this initial launch are wonderful offerings by four exceptional poets. Rather than drool with unadulterated joy any further, I'll just point you to the Otoliths shopfront - http://www.lulu.com/l_m_young - where you can also find other books & chapbooks plus print versions of the magazine, & would suggest to U.S. residents that, rather than use couriers, they select the USPS Media Mail default as the means of delivery since it's economical &, from our experience, efficient. The individual webpages for each of the books is given below. Nico Vassilakis: DIPTYCHS 60 pages, full colour $15.00 webpage: http://www.lulu.com/content/670787 "The individual pieces in this book are tiny visual poems that examine the materiality of visible language and find beauty by looking at that language from unexpected vantage points. Nico has created each of these poems through a sequence of steps that included capturing video of text, editing and modifying that video (which included changing the color), capturing screenshots of the video, and cutting and putting these final pieces together in little diptychs consisting of one rectangle of prepared text atop another. To some degree, the results are the children of Nico's important videopoetic work, Concrete: Movies, released in 2005." -from the introduction by Geof Huth Jordan Stempleman: What's the Matter 112 pages $10.00 webpage: http://www.lulu.com/content/629216 "Maximizing the tension of line breaks, making the most of each word's nuances, Jordan Stempleman creates a stunning landscape of precision and delicacy. There are gorgeous moments here, and they always "begin with the actual condition"-this book constitutes a commitment to the beauty of the world, and a new instance of it." - Cole Swensen "In this impressive, replete collection, Jordan Stempleman takes us repeatedly to this place of contemplation, where only a few rare words are necessary. We are invited to a course of thinking that locates intensity without demanding it-for therein lies the fabled difference between an exploratory and settled poetics, to open out and out again upon present history. This is, quite simply, a wonderful book." - Paul Hoover harry k stammer: tents 60 pages, including colour $15.00 webpage: http://www.lulu.com/content/629289 "Make no mistake about it: harry k. stammer is one of the boldest pioneers in contemporary experimental poetry-and one of the most successful. His new work tents is edgy but accessible; challenging but rewarding. stammer mixes a sort of poetic cubism with wordplay, startling typography, and a wide array of other adventurous techniques with creative intensity rarely witnessed. In this singular text, the reader is confronted by a dizzying maelstrom of meaning and image. Kaleidoscopic and impressionistic, this interpretation of our postindustrial, postmodern society is a must for any serious reader of today's poetry." -Philip Primeau , PERSISTENCIA* PRESS Vernon Frazer: BODIED TONE 132 pages $10.00 webpage: http://www.lulu.com/content/629262 " BODIED TONE is terrific-the rhythmic vitality is just that, full of life, but it is seductive too; one gets caught up in the percussive musicality of the phrasing . It's a driving musicality-more bebop than balladry, for sure." - Lyn Hejinian So why not splurge a little & be swept up by pleasure. Cheers Mark Young Editor, Otoliths ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 10:43:48 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: why the moderation? In-Reply-To: <20070225145325.WRCR20344.ibm56aec.bellsouth.net@HPLASERJ> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I apologize if I missed something, but why is the list being moderated & are all the messages getting thru? Seems like the volume & spontaneity of the list has plummeted in the last few weeks. Either that or everyone is buried under a couple feet of snow. digging out from under, ~mIEKAL ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 16:53:29 GMT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "holsapple1@juno.com" Subject: Gene Frumkin 1928--2007 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain I just learned that Gene Frumkin has passed away. I don't know the deta= ils. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 11:51:25 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ann Bogle Subject: Travel to the AWP MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Atlanta 2/28-3/4: Call if you would like to meet, attend a session, get coffee, a drink, go to a reading, et al. 612/501-5131 c Ann Bogle


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AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 12:35:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Camille Martin Subject: AWP panel MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline If you're going to be in Atlanta for the AWP, please come to the panel "Poets on Appropriative Writing": Thursday, March 1, 12:00 p.m.-1:15 p.m Hilton Atlanta, North Court East, 2nd Floor R147. Poets on Appropriative Writing. (Laura Mullen, Mairead Byrne, Shin Yu Pai, Gregory Betts, Camille Martin) Raphael Rubinstein says "appropriative writing." Michael Davidson says "palimtexts." Gregory Betts says "plunderverse." Purists say "plagiarism." This panel features poets whose work incorporates source texts, challenging ideas of textual ownership and perhaps also showing a relationship between source and resulting poem. Panelists discuss methods of appropriation from such disparate sources as vintage sports manuals, news coverage of the invasion of Iraq, and "The Rime of the Ancient Mariner." Looks like an interesting conference. Here's the schedule: http://www.awpwriter.org/conference/2007schedThurs.php Camille Camille Martin, Ph.D. Department of English Ryerson University 350 Victoria Street Toronto, ON M5B 2K3 Office: 416.979.5000, ext. 2694 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 13:53:55 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beckett Subject: NEW NOW AT E-X-C-H-A-N-G-E-V-A-L-U-E-S MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For my interview with Finnish poet Karri Kokko, go to: http://willtoexchange.blogspot.com


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AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 14:29:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Re: why the moderation? In-Reply-To: <1AE0967F-DFAE-4A84-BE93-8FCAB26DCC25@mwt.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit mIEKAL Why the moderation? Because some of us are just getting too old to continue our lives of excess. I can't speak to the situation with the List because I haven't noticed anything beyond the usual ebb and flow of posts. As far as the notice you receive about moderation, it seems to be an automated response. And then your message gets posted way sooner than the time frame indicated in the notice. Vernon http://vernonfrazer.com -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of mIEKAL aND Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 11:44 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: why the moderation? I apologize if I missed something, but why is the list being moderated & are all the messages getting thru? Seems like the volume & spontaneity of the list has plummeted in the last few weeks. Either that or everyone is buried under a couple feet of snow. digging out from under, ~mIEKAL ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 16:37:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Camille Martin Subject: AWP event MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline To anyone attending the AWP, I'd like to let you know about a reading at Clayton State University. It's a bit of a trek (15 miles south of Atlanta), but if you have the transportation, time, and desire, I'd love to see your friendly faces there. Alas, my new collection _codes of public sleep_ will not appear in time for the reading. It will come out in the fall from Toronto's fabulous BookThug. Camille Clayton State University's Visiting Writer's Reading Series presents Camille Martin Wednesday, February 28, 7:30 pm Clayton Sate University, Room 327 Directions: www.clayton.edu/homefiles/maps.htm Camille Martin, a poet and collage artist, is the author of codes of public sleep (BookThug, forthcom- ing in 2007). Her short collections include fabled hue (Poetic Inhalation, 2005), sesame kiosk(Potes & Poets, 2001), rogue embryo (Lavender Ink, 1999), magnus loop (Chax Press, 1999), and Plastic Heaven (Fell Swoop, 1996). Formerly of New Orleans, she escaped the ravages of Katrina and is now happily settled in Toronto, where she is completing a collec- tion of fourteen-liners entitled sennets. She teaches writing and literature at Ryerson University. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 22:54:10 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: P Ganick Subject: new picture series, AMOEBAE AMOEBAE by peter ganick at jim leftwich's flickr photo site http://www.flickr.com/photos/textimagepoetry/ please check it out. comments welcome. pganick@comcast.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 18:20:06 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Does anyone have any info on "The Lyre" of Wisconsin In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ANY and all would be appreciated. Waiting on some materials. Kind regards, agj --- ____________________________________________________________________________________ Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545367 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 21:25:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: poetics justice MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 "THE DANISH POET" just won an Oscar! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 22:17:12 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: FW: The Lyre - Update Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Alex: here is the information they held a rreading in Viroqua, WI last month, but am not sure if that is the town of location for them--i think so--i'll know for sure when the first issue arrives any day now-- here is the email addy and editors' names-- >From: "The Lyre" >Editorial Collective >(Arthur Bernstein, Joseph Hart, Anne O'Connor) > onwo/ards! david-bc " . . .but it is a diaster when they slip into a blackhole from which they no longer utter anything but the micro-facist speech of their dependency and their giddiness: 'We are the avant-garde', 'We are the marginals." --Gilles Deleuze, with Clarie Parnet, DIALOGUES _________________________________________________________________ Find what you need at prices you’ll love. Compare products and save at MSN® Shopping. http://shopping.msn.com/default/shp/?ptnrid=37,ptnrdata=24102&tcode=T001MSN20A0701 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 00:32:59 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Don Summerhayes Subject: Re: Sartre quote In-Reply-To: <788246.93843.qm@web53214.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit not shipwrecked. On 25-Feb-07, at 6:06 AM, EH wrote: > Perhaps a bit off topic, I'm looking for the source of a sixties > interview with Sartre which produced this statment: "nous sommes > des animaux sinistre": "we are shipwrecked animals". Any > assistance is of course appreciated. Thank you. > > Eric Hoffman > > > --------------------------------- > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 21:41:46 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jules Boykoff Subject: **Czerski, Fitterman, & Hayes read in Portland, OR this Saturday** MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 **The Tangent (occasional) Reading Series** Poets Gale Czerski (Portland), Robert Fitterman (New York), and Jared Hayes (Portland) read their work. Saturday, March 3rd, 7:00 p.m. Clinton Corner Cafe 2633 SE 21st Ave. Portland, Oregon Admission is free. For samples of the poets' work, please visit our website::: http://www.thetangentpress.org/ readings.html Gale Czerski’s work has appeared in recent issues of Bird Dog and Mirage #4 Period[ical]. Her poem 'Ambulatory Siren Songs' has been published in pamphlet form by Nine Muses Books. The chapbook, Invocation, is being published by FLASH+CARD. She is currently preparing a manuscript for Dusie Press' Wee Books series. Robert Fitterman comes to Portland fresh from New York. He is the author of 9 books of poetry; 3 of those books constitute his ongoing poem Metropolis. Metropolis 1-15 was awarded the Sun & Moon New American Poetry Award (1997), and Metropolis 16-29 (Coach House Books, 2002) received the Small Press Traffic Book of the Year Award in 2003. Several of his other books are collaborations with visual artists, including most recently War, the musical (Subpress, 2006) with Dirk Rowntree. Fitterman lives in New York where he teaches writing at New York University. Jared Hayes is working and living in Portland, Oregon. His poetry or his vis/po has appeared in or is forthcoming from Bombay Gin, Dusie, Five Fingers Review, Hot Whiskey, and Small Town. He participated in the 2006 Dusie Kollectiv Projekt with the chapbook homage to Ted Berrigan, RecollecTed. He is the co-author, with Joseph Cooper, of Insuring the Wicker Man Shadow Created Delusion (Hot Whiskey Press, 2005). Come early, and have dinner, if you like. Please stay after and join us for conversation and festivities! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 01:55:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Text from 2 Chicago Openport Performance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Text from 2 Chicago Openport Performances this is a placemarker for font and size i learn nothing from my work. my work learns from me. this is so stupid. this is so stupid. ehllo hello. nathan - somewhere near the begimning of 'the silent film era' actresses were accompanied by orchestras or musicians of their choosing to get into the mood of the otherwise silent so this is how it's going to be. what i do (here) is try to type, well at one point someone told me I couldn't type (I'm showing you now heheh! - anyway I try and TYPE something until you're bored or someonne pulls me out of here (I mean Chicago, not Links Hall) - anyway so I try to entertain you - wait, please there's more coming... this part was videotaped at Rilke's Grave in Raran, SW we're reading - well, Foofwa d'Imobilite and Maud Liardon - are - reading the tombstone - and well, I"m playing the organ, that's somewhere else in the alps - the sooner a train comes along the sooner I'm saved here. i'd better explain this this is a model of a dancer moving through motion capture equipment that has some broken sensors sending the signals out to infinity where they collapse, grief stricken, and return, something like the rturn of the repressed. Now here is the return of the repressed, just a second here - ok, it's more or less below freezing out there in the Gruyere ok, this isn't getting anywhere yet. i'mm not a particularly good performance artist. I'm cheating, I recorded this stuff beforehand - look around you - there aren't any naked people in the room at the moment, nor a waterfall for that matter... this is a deconstruction of a gun and on the left is someone dancing more or less and disappearing into the light. yeah, well, ok, this will happen. let's back up. we won't kill bush, we'll just wound him - so - just in case you wondered, the hum you're hearing isn't from my laptop, it's in the system here in Links Hall and in fact I tend to love it -on the left is my avatar disappearing in Second Life because I programmed it to get away with it so it can go through cliffs and stuff. now yhou're hearing the hum of the planet, literally - this is very low frequency radio stuff coming through - the antennas are modified by the performers - transforming the sound - Maud Liardon atthe end of a particularly exhausting day. maud machine - there's a file here called rottate i'll try to find it hold on the machine aspect is clearer by the way: the title of this is "The Difference Between the Analog and the Binary Mode of Relating Real-Time bodies to the world" - this was shortened from the title "My Partner is My Buddha" this is literally the Maud Machine - why literrally? this is Azure generating very low frequency coupling with an antenna somewhere in Orange County California these are dead avatars this is another dead avatar. ok what you're hearing is an imitation of a 78 record created from an event in very low frequency radio stuff. this is really stupid.l i'll whos you what i feel like. ok that's an assassin bug on the right. now we're looking at the wilderness. when we work and we always do and we work together sometimes and we don't we try to harnass we try to harness the digital and return it to the real world. there of course is still a real world, don't believe the theorists. where is it? it's among the polar bears who are starving and have turned cannibal it's among the elephans which have taken to raping as a result of population pressure. it among the fifty thousand birds that died at the world trade center site as a result of the fucked up pillars of light which messed up migration routes - as a result they died of exhaustion this is the deconstruction of a tree, a real tree, with a ditial scanner. I'm not sure why this is important, but possibly in anotehr fifty years or so we might not have trees. well we won't have "we" either this is my sad ronin in second life - when I work in second life i go to thebottom of the ocean then i don't have to deal with cleverness and messy building and people flying by. i can just do something maybe there Cris Cheek should know where this sound is from, the only thing I didn't do here, the rest for whatever is mine. this was done after abu gharayb. those blades are from a wind farm in West Virgina. think aboutg wind farms - like the beams of lightfrom the world trade center, most of these have been responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of birds. they fly into it. the avatar was takenpart and taken apart and taken apart this is Azure Carter being scanned while moving - this results in the disappearance of Azure Carter, any trace of her, in the digital realm. I'd show this to you if I could remember where it is! ok, this is the result of that maneuver more or less, you can see the body sliced - we're back trying to suture things back together from digital to analog. if someone can tell me when twenty-five minutes or so are gone I can wrap this up. at the moment I'm thinking: abjection/politics on the left, avatars imitating real-life people on the right, real-life people imitatin avatars. notice the people (on the right) we refer to as "The Bobsie Twins" What coordination! This took years to perfect i used to do these things with the idea of a 'moral" or content or "content" or a "sememe " or something behind what you're seeing on the screen. then it occurred to me there's nothing we can do at this point to save - well, our own selves, species from extinction, inundations, the stupidies - that's stupdi, stupidities of fascist presidents - so we might as well just play and make faces in restaurants because maybe all we can do is dance oh that's so stupid again but it's true! and it's true I can't dance! so ... so it's true that' that there's a letter maybe beneath this one going somewhere my partner exploding with the motion capture equipment going into gunfire - well I want you to believe this is gunfire while a vacuum tube is deconstruct simultaneously well I'd like you to believe it's deconstructed. what's stupid here is I have only one screen and I want to have equipment on the floro! floor! more and more equipment, something I can disappear into! I'll have to settle for for some sort of entertainment i want to thank everyone here for allowing us to present! and Foofwa d'Imobilite and Maud Liardon for their brillians And Azure Carter for her support and brilliance And President bush for making this possible and the Swiss Government for funding this in part and the Alps for just being there. thank you. placeholder text chicago 2 placeholder text placeholder text anguish disappears when our world suffers the most an image weeps. an image does not suffer. no, an image suffers the most. dear buddha, i will suffer for you. thank you, alan sondheim. nothing is real anymore, is it? is what? is nothing? i am your electric-onic i am your electronic buzz bomb i will kill all of you fuckers. i will kill everyone. don't forget - when you leave here tonight YOU WILL BE DEAD (honest, I really mean this more than I mean anything in the world) - signed, Mr. Bush. Let us [...] If I can't be Buddha I will kill myself. Then after I kill myself I will kill you. Today I thought about the French Empire and the American Empire. The end. Alan Sondheim. ok if you have any questions. Ok I have a question. What is that stuff moving about. "Well, I'm glad you asked that,' Susan said. This is really something, isn't it? (Susan didn't say that.) Well, what this , well, these are avatars torn apart, By What you May AsK? maBY by Abu Gharab, he replied lightly. Christ, he thought (although he didn't believe in God). There are too many things going on here. That zither is being sent around the usa coming back to me. That woman is Maud Liardon danceworking performing in a grange in the Gruyere. We need a cat. So you think this is funny? I will KILL YOU. This is NOT FUNNY. StOPPP IT VLF radio runs around the world. The USA will use VLF radio antennas to: 1. Disorient and kill whales. 2. Disorient and kill dolphins. 3. Communicate just where and when the BIG ONE will be dropped. I'm a dope! Just now, a reveleation: EVERYONE IS TWITCHING ON THE SCREN Suddenly he realized: There were people behind himn. It wasn't paranoia. He was being watched. Something had to be done, something drastic. Then he remembered: "He would kill them all." This is the compassion the Buddha speaks of so eloquently. Now we're hanging around the Aletsch glacier. I want to thank the Swiss government for making this possible: a. Holding on to the Aletsch glacier in this period of global warming. b. Giving my partner and I some money so we can eat again. c. Making us stop worrying if we con't have any money for b. I did this thing last night with different videos. And there I was thinking, there's just nothing you can do about the world, is there/ so it's not enoght to dance, fuck dance, it's got to be something else. if we could only just kill ourselves. then everything would be allright in the worldl but of cours we're just kidding, nothing like this can happen. the whole history of the West: we're just kidding ourselves. (Honest.) don't cry for us argentina. ============================================================== ============================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 05:06:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jUStin!katKO Subject: cris cheek | THE CHURCH =?WINDOWS-1252?Q?=96_THE_SCHOOL_=96?= THE BEER In-Reply-To: <3bf622560702252354w5576b62fl239d51a96096f4cd@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline * * * * * * * * * * * CRITICAL DOCUMENTS Newsletter 2 * * * * * * * * * * * New Publication THE CHURCH =96 THE SCHOOL =96 THE BEER by cris cheek $10/ =A37 =96 200 pages =96 perfect-bound =96 500 copies * "This project by cris cheek is a brilliant, light-hearted and stylised record of live transmissions, spoken circuitries, registered feedback, rewound conversations and overheard snippets, all recorded during daily drifts in a small English city. 13 black-and-white photographs show our man in situ in a really proper suit holding a recorder, which is a black hand-held machine. The recorder turns out to be a live transmitter, it interferes with local taxiphone networks. 14 handwritten map sketches lead nowhere. Location is an insistent point." =96 Caroline Bergvall "In THE CHURCH =96 THE SCHOOL =96 THE BEER cheek makes one of his most impressive and serious efforts to provide a mise en sc=E8ne of the act of writing as performance. This is an anarcho-utopic struggle for the earthly commons, where authentic communication is guaranteed under the sign of nois= e as radical democracy; it is a form of research into all the joyous choreographies of the tongue as the supreme organ of capture and escape. Readers of these texts are treated to a supremely conceptual writing, but one that also promises moments of lush density as well as a strangely delicate lyrical iridescence." =96 Piers Hugill * THE CHURCH =96 THE SCHOOL =96 THE BEER includes: =96 transcriptions of eight talks conducted over CB radio on a street corne= r in central Norwich, June 1998 =96 a remix of these transcriptions =96 drawings--writings made at the Norwich site as research prior to the ta= lks =96 photographs of the Norwich talks taken by Sianed Jones =96 a transcription of a video talk--walk conducted in New Orleans, March 2= 001 =96 a note on the strategies mobilized in the texts' acts of writing Review copies available. http://plantarchy.us/Plantarchy_3.html * * * * * * * * * * * Coming Next PLANTARCHY 4 Essays by Allen Fisher (intro to Assemblage and Empathy), Susan Schultz (on Donald Rumsfeld) and Piers Hugill (on cris cheek). Interviews with Kent Johnson and Helen Bridwell. Poetry by Frances Kruk, Keith Tuma, Linda Russo= , Sean Bonney, Rachel Smith, Dic Royer and more. Send critical documents asap= . THE SEVEN CURSES A Xena Warrior Princess Fan-Fic (Plantarchy 5) by Francis Crot Plantarchy is available at Bridge Street (DC), Rust Belt (Buffalo), Talking Leaves (Buffalo), Normal's (Baltimore), City Lights (San Francisco) and Woodland Pattern (Milwaukee). * * * * * * * * * * * Donations To help fund the publication of Plantarchy and future Critical Documents, please make a donation. Checks payable to Critical Documents. $ Donate $ =A3 Donate =A3 * * * * * * * * * * * Critical Documents http://plantarchy.us 112 N College #4 Oxford, OH 45056 USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 07:07:03 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Waber Subject: ars poetica update Comments: To: announce MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii The ars poetica project continues to thrum at: http://www.logolalia.com/arspoetica/ Poems appeared last week by: Sandra Alland, Maxianne Berger, and Jesse Glass. Poems will appear this week by: Jesse Glass, Mari-Lou Rowley, Ann Bogle, and Jennifer Compton. A new poem about poetry every day. Enjoy, Dan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 07:28:35 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: poetics justice In-Reply-To: <1172456737l.721024l.0l@psu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" hey, whozatt??? At 9:25 PM -0500 2/25/07, ALDON L NIELSEN wrote: >"THE DANISH POET" just won an Oscar! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 06:44:56 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brigitte Byrd Subject: Ahsahta Press Reading in Atlanta MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Time to share the news since AWP starts in a couple of days. . . . Ahsahta Press Reading Thursday, March 1, 7:30-10 The Defoor Centre Reading Room 1710 Defoor Avenue NW (downtown Atlanta, not far from the hotel) http://www.defoorcentre.com Paige Ackerson-Kiely, Carrie Olivia Adams, Susan Briante, Brigitte Byrd, Lisa Fishman, Noah Eli Gordon, Kate Greenstreet, Janet Holmes, Karla Kelsey, Kristi Maxwell, Ethan Paquin, Susan Tichy Brigitte Byrd http://a-s.clayton.edu/bbyrd/Homepage.htm ____________________________________________________________________________________ Finding fabulous fares is fun. Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 09:19:47 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Tom W. Lewis" Subject: Re: poetics justice MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable apparently, it was the Best animated short film - THE DANISH POET=20 =20 I was watching The Departed throughout the Oscars show (which I try to = miss most years anyway) -- caught Al Gore & co. take it for best = documentary film, a fluent Ennio Morricone (fluent in Italian) = introduced by a stumbling Clint Eastwood, and a horrific turn by Celine = Dion spitting out a cheesy new ballad by Il Maestro... yes, Morricone's = work is primarily cheese, but I still enjoy it. except for when Celine = sings it. =20 anyone see The Lives of Others? it won for best foreign film. there's a = "power of literature, art, humanity, over totalitarianism" theme running = throughout. =20 from foggy and shallow So FL,=20 =20 tl ________________________________ From: UB Poetics discussion group on behalf of Maria Damon Sent: Mon 2/26/2007 7:28 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: poetics justice hey, whozatt??? At 9:25 PM -0500 2/25/07, ALDON L NIELSEN wrote: >"THE DANISH POET" just won an Oscar! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 07:48:19 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas savage Subject: Re: You must reply to this with a poem In-Reply-To: <20070224053107.fbnhwbf82lhcws8g@webmail.frontiernet.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sorry this is not a poem. But, as I understand it, we aren't supposed to post poems on this site, just discussions and announcements relevant to poetry. There is another excellent site called Wryting-L where poets from this list and, I suspect, from other sources post poems. It is set up specifically with that intent. If you're interested in doing that, Google Wryting-L and it should give you the relevant information. Regards, Tom Savage "Ricejunk2@frontiernet.net" wrote: Hello all "poetic-al" people. Recently it has been suggested that there is not enough poetry within POETICS discussions. Let's make up for it. Responses to this post must be in the form of a poem, discussing whatever you wish (remember the moderator) and maybe we can all enjoy a little poetry (in the casual non-serious-criticism sense of the word), rather than the opposite which I often read on POETICS when someone has a need to fight and no one at home to do so with. Exasperation can be remedied by writing it all down, and if it is that bad then please throw it away rather than send it out into the world to spread the dark wings of ugliness. We dont have to all like each other, since respect and communication can go on without "like". But i do like you all. And I hope you have an inspiring weekend, while I am slaving away at my "day job"... staring out my office window at the real world. Ahhhh. Stay warm (hard to do these days in Buffalo and beyond) and remember that we could be in the middle of a hurricane. I dont know about you, but I will gladly take the snow any day over that mess and worry. Goodbye all, for now, T. F. Rice Here is my poem for the evening: Untitled: Small pine trees with gaping holes in the snow for shadows whisper their opinions on this season full of change and uncertainty in a foreign language no one wants to hear. --------------------------------- Check out the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 08:08:04 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amy king Subject: Re: You must reply to this with a poem - creative? In-Reply-To: <777765.80231.qm@web31113.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Tom is right -- the Welcome message states, "We do not accept postings of creative work not directed toward a discussion of poetics issues on the list. The Poetics List is not a venue for the posting of free-standing, personal poems or journal entries." And earlier, "The Poetics List is not a forum for a general discussion of poetry or for the exchange of poems. Our aim is to support, inform, and extend those directions in poetry that are committed to innovations, renovations, and investigations of form and/or/as content, to the questioning of received forms and styles, and to the creation of the otherwise unimagined, untried, unexpected, improbable, and impossible." Should posts written in poetic form/at (broken lines? rhymed? omitting all e's, employing recurring words? etc) that address poetics issues be encouraged? Incidentally, the daily message max for the list is 75 messages per day, with a limit of four posts per person. Thomas savage wrote: Sorry this is not a poem. But, as I understand it, we aren't supposed to post poems on this site, just discussions and announcements relevant to poetry. There is another excellent site called Wryting-L where poets from this list and, I suspect, from other sources post poems. It is set up specifically with that intent. If you're interested in doing that, Google Wryting-L and it should give you the relevant information. Regards, Tom Savage --------------------------------- Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 10:04:00 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: RIP Gene Frumkin (1928-2007) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Escalator The escalator is a dangerous enemy who could trip you one step at a time. This is how the mind works, synthesizing dream with substance. Or as Jung alternates with Freud. The substitution of ground for holiness claims voice as a reason for old tribes locating the sun as figures in the act, at the window. The future derives from sleep, evolves into gods and animals. This is a process that F. chilled into vintage prose. Jung warmed to the blooded world, not alone. The human collective describes the enormity of a single voice. How the minotaur poses like God in his mystical cellar. Yet F. too brings the good news that deciphers time in focus, traveled by a map, as if one could say there it is! now is as good as anywhere. Everything is abstract in its origin almost as if Plato believed in the verity of his good republic. The escalator goes flat by steps. It continues as breath does: two men in blue suits with vests. The moving sidewalk is no less. It slows into watchword, and if F. abhorred the occult, Jung compared sexuality in the psychic order to a hidden grammar, dogma on the harpsichord. Organized mystery, lens-defined hyperbole. A science rises from obsession, shaped like the Golem of Prague, but who remembers his song? Jung catches flies instead of fish. F. hangs his briefs on the line. The world is all alone, all there is to imitate. Time limps behind the escalator, F. stands with a stopwatch, Jung with a camera. Mind in slow motion, caught in breath. --Gene Frumkin fr. Freud by Other Means [Albuquerque: La Alameda Press, 2002] Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com halvard@earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 11:01:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Kelleher Subject: Literary Buffalo E-Newsletter 2.26.07 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable LITERARY BUFFALO 2.26.07-3.04.07 ANNOUNCEMENTS Alexis De Veaux's creative non-fiction workshop starts Saturday=21 Scroll d= own to =22Workshops=22 for details. Just Buffalo's timed writing group, which meets Fridays noon at Starbuck's = Chippewa is cancelled. It will resume March 9. READINGS THIS WEEK Unless otherwise indicated, all readings are free and open to the public. 2.28.07 Talking Leaves...Books Larry Beahan & Karen Adragna Walsh Reading and signing, Adirondack Pulp Fiction & Good Crazy, Essays of a Mad Housewife Wednesday, February 28, 7 p.m. Talking Leaves...Books, Main St. Store Doctor Beahan is a retired Psychiatrist living in Amherst. He is a hiker, s= kier, canoeist, sailor and environmental activist and writes on those subje= cts. In addition to his two previous books about the Adirondacks, he has pu= blished one about Allegany State Park. He is a frequent contributor to the = My View column in the Buffalo News. A graduate of D'Youville College, and r= esident of Hamburg, Karen Adragna Walsh works by day as an operating room n= urse. She believes that her medical career definitely helps her writer's p= erspective. =22For a nurse, healing is the main goal and I believe my writi= ngs reflect the healing power of humor that we all need in today's crazy ch= aotic world.=22 3.01.07 Just Buffalo Small Press Poetry Series Michael Boughn and Victor Coleman Poetry Reading Thursday, March 1, 7 p.m. Rust Belt Books, 202 Allen St. Victor Coleman was born in 1944 in Toronto. From 1966-1975 he was linotype = operator for The Coach House Printing Co. and Coach House Press editor in c= hief. In 1996, when the Coach House Press had been run into the ground by v= arious committees, he and Stan Bevington started up Coach House Books and w= ww.chbooks.com , the world's first simultaneous print and online publishing= venture. Since 1999 he has been the chief editorial mucky-muck for the Cen= tre for Contemporary Canadian Art's Canadian Art Database ( www.ccca.ca ). = His five children have produced eight grandchildren. He likes to summer wit= h his wife, Kate Van Dusen, in Rieux-Minervois, near Carcassonne, in the La= nguedoc region of France. His most recent book is Icon Tact : Poems 1984-20= 01. He is currently at work on the third volume Letter Drop . Michael Boughn was born in Riverside, California in 1946. He moved to Canad= a in October, 1966 to escape the U.S. military draft and to continue organi= zing against the Viet Nam War. After years working as a Teamster and punch = press operator, he received a BA from UC Santa Cruz in 1982, then moved to = Buffalo, NY to pursue graduate studies at SUNY Buffalo, where he studied wi= th John Clarke and Robert Creeley. In 1993 he returned to Canada and in 200= 1 swore allegiance to the Queen and her heirs and became a Canadian citizen= =2E He currently lives in Toronto with his wife, Elizabeth, and their two c= hildren, Amelia and Sam. His books of poems include Iterations of the Diago= nal (1995), A little post-apocalyptic suite for RC with thanks for the rhin= o (1996), Dislocation Flutter (1998), One's own MIND (1999), Dislocations i= n Crystal (2003), and 22 Skidoo (2005). 3.01.07 Talking Leaves...Books Athena Mutua Panel and signing for: Progressive Black Masculinities Thursday, March 1, 7 p.m. Talking Leaves...Books, Main St. Store Progressive Black Masculinities brings together leading black cultural crit= ics including John O. Calmore, Patricia Hill Collins, and biblical critic G= ay L. Byron, along with those on our panel, to explore the challenges of bl= ack masculinity. The diverse voices gathered here all argue that the greate= st peril to black men may be an uncritical embrace of limited, compensatory= notions of manhood. Collectively, they offer a roadmap for new, progressiv= e models of black masculinity that may chart the course or the future of bl= ack men. Athena D. Mutua teaches banking law, corporation law, critical race theory,= and civil rights and writes in the areas of critical race theory and femin= ist legal theory. She lives with her spouse, Makau Mutua, and their three t= eenage sons in Buffalo. Timothy Brown is a professor of communications at W= est Chester University who formerly taught at Buffalo State College. Teresa= Miller and Stephanie Phillips are law professors at UB, where Nathan Grant= is an English professor. Mark Anthony Neal earned his Ph.D at UB, and is = now a professor at Duke. 3.02.07 Exhibit X Fiction/Hallwalls Percival Everett Fiction Reading Friday, March 2, 7 p.m. Hallwalls Cinema at the Church, 341 Delaware Ave Percival Everett is the author of fifteen novels, three collections of shor= t fiction, and one volume of poetry. Among his novels are Erasure, Glyph, W= ounded, American Desert, For Her Dark Skin, Zulus, The Weather and The Wome= n Treat Me Fair, Cutting Lisa, Walk Me to the Distance, Suder, The One That= Got Away, Watershed, and God's Country. He is the recipient of the Academy= Award from the American Academy of Arts and Letters, the Hurston/Wright Le= gacy Award, the PEN/Oakland-Josephine Miles Award for Excellence in Literat= ure, and a New American Writing Award. His stories have been included in th= e Pushcart Prize Anthology and Best American Short Stories. In addition to = writing, Everett is a painter, a woodworker, and a flyfisherman. He trains = mules on his ranch outside of Los Angeles and teaches at the University of = Southern California. 3.04.07 Tru-Teas Reading Series Ann Goldsmith Tru-Teas/Insite Gallery, 810 Elmwood Ave. Sunday March 4th, 4 p.m. JUST BUFFALO WRITING WORKSHOPS All workshops take place in Just Buffalo's Workshop/Conference Room At the historic Market Arcade, 617 Main St., First Floor -- right across fr= om Shea's. The Market Arcade is climate-controlled and has a security guard= on duty at all times. To get here: Take the train to the 'Theatre' stop and walk, or park and enter on Washing= ton Street. Free parking on Washington Street evenings and weekends. Two-do= llar parking in fenced, guarded, M & T lot on Washington. Visit our website= for detailed descriptions, instructor bios, and to register online. =22There Are 3 Sides To Every Story....=22 A Creative Nonfiction Writing Workshop Instructor: Alexis De Veaux 4 Saturdays, 10 a.m. - 12 p.m. March 3, April 7, May 5, May 19 =24100, =2480 for members This workshop will explore ideas fundamental to writing creative nonfiction= across a broad spectrum of genres; such as autobiography, memoir, biograph= y, and essay. Our exercises and discussions will focus attention on the use= s of memory, imagination, =22history,=22 and =22fact=22 in constructing = =22truth.=22 Participants should expect to gain a working knowledge of how = these elements shape their own work. A writing sample is required (no more = than ten, double-spaced, typed, pages). Bring writing sample to first class= =2E Among Alexis De Veaux's works are a fictionalized memoir, Spirits In The St= reet (Doubleday, 1973); an award-winning children's book, Na-ni (Harper and= Row, 1973); Don't Explain , a biography of jazz great, Billie Holiday (Har= per and Row, 1980); two independently published poetry works, Blue Heat: A = Portfolio of Poems and Drawings (1985) and Spirit Talk (1997); a second chi= ldren's book, An Enchanted Hair Tale (Harper and Row, 1987), which was a re= cipient of the 1988 Coretta Scott King Award presented by the American Libr= ary Association and the 1991 Lorraine Hansberry Award for Excellence in Chi= ldren's Literature. In 1997, one of her poems was selected for the prestigi= ous Christmas Broadside Series published under the auspices of the Friends = of the University Libraries, University at Buffalo. She is the author of Wa= rrior Poet, A Biography of Audre Lorde (W. W. Norton, 2004). The Tao of Writing the Short Story A Fiction Writing Workshop Instructor: Ralph Wahlstrom 2 Saturdays: March 24 and 31 10 a.m. - 2 p.m. with a break for lunch. Market Arcade Building, 617 Main St., First Floor. =24100, =2480 for members RECURRING LITERARY EVENTS JUST BUFFALO WRITER'S CRITIQUE GROUP Members of Just Buffalo are welcome to attend a free, bi-monthly writer cri= tique group in CEPA's Flux Gallery on the first floor of the historic Marke= t Arcade Building across the street from Shea's. Group meets 1st and 3rd We= dnesday at 7 p.m. Call Just Buffalo for details. JUST BUFFALO TIMED WRITING GROUP A writing practice group meets every FRIDAY at noon at Starbucks Coffee on = Elmwood and Chippewa. Writing practice is based on Natalie Goldberg's sugge= sted exercises in Writing Down The Bones. Writers in all genres, fiction an= d non-fiction welcome. There is no charge. Contact Trudy for info: Trudett= a=40aol.com. WESTERN NEW YORK ROMANCE WRITERS group meets the third Wednesday of every m= onth at St. Joseph Hospital community room at 11a.m. Address: 2605 Harlem R= oad, Cheektowaga, NY 14225. For details go to www.wnyrw.org. JUST BUFFALO MEMBERSHIP RAFFLE Visit the literary city of your dreams: -Joyce's Dublin -Paris' Left Bank -Dante's Florence -Shakespeare's London -Harlem Renaissance NYC -The Beats' San Francisco -Anywhere Continental flies.* Now through May 10, 2007 your membership support of Just Buffalo Literary C= enter includes the chance to win the literary trip of a lifetime: Package (valued at =245,000) includes: -Two round-trip tickets to one of the great literary cities on Continental = Airlines -=241500 towards hotel and accommodations -=24500 in spending money One ticket (=2435) =3D Just Buffalo Individual Membership Two tickets (=2460) =3D Just Buffalo Family Membership Three tickets (=24100) =3D Just Buffalo Friend Membership Purchase as many memberships as you like. Give them to whomever you choose = as a gift (or give someone else the membership and keep the lottery ticket = to yourself=21). Only 1000 chances will be sold. Raffle tickets with Just B= uffalo membership make great gifts=21 Drawing will be held the second week = of May, 2007. Call 716.832.5400 for more info. * Raffle ticket purchases are not tax-deductible. If you want your membersh= ip to put you in the =22literary trip of a lifetime=22 raffle, please write= =22raffle membership=22 in the =22payment for=22 cell on the Paypal form. = You will automatically be entered in the raffle, but your membership will n= ot be tax-deductible. If you prefer not to be in the raffle and want tax-de= ductible status, then please write =22non-raffle member=22 in the =22paymen= t for=22 cell. JOIN JUST BUFFALO ONLINE=21=21=21 If you would like to join Just Buffalo, or simply make a massive personal d= onation, you can do so online using your credit card. We have recently add= ed the ability to join online by paying with a credit card through PayPal. = Simply click on the membership level at which you would like to join, log = in (or create a PayPal account using your Visa/Amex/Mastercard/Discover), a= nd voil=E1, you will find yourself in literary heaven. For more info, or t= o join now, go to our website: http://www.justbuffalo.org/membership/index.shtml UNSUBSCRIBE If you would like to unsubscribe from this list, just say so and you will b= e immediately removed. _______________________________ Michael Kelleher Artistic Director Just Buffalo Literary Center Market Arcade 617 Main St., Ste. 202A Buffalo, NY 14203 716.832.5400 716.270.0184 (fax) www.justbuffalo.org mjk=40justbuffalo.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 10:17:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Adam Morey Subject: Re: FW: The Lyre - Update In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The new email address for The Lyre is "The Lyre" The mailing address is: The Lyre 210 Hillyer Ave. Viroqua, WI 54665 -Adam > Alex: > > here is the information > they held a rreading in Viroqua, WI last month, but am not sure if that is > the town of location for them--i think so--i'll know for sure when the > first > issue arrives any day now-- > > here is the email addy and editors' names-- > >>From: "The Lyre" > >>Editorial Collective >>(Arthur Bernstein, Joseph Hart, Anne O'Connor) >> > onwo/ards! david-bc > > " . . .but it is a diaster when they slip into a blackhole from which they > no longer utter anything but the micro-facist speech of their dependency > and > their giddiness: 'We are the avant-garde', 'We are the marginals." > --Gilles Deleuze, with Clarie Parnet, DIALOGUES > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 11:27:37 -0500 Reply-To: lmelvin1@binghamton.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Metta Sama Subject: Re: You must reply to this with a poem - creative? In-Reply-To: <107092.53291.qm@web83310.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit while i'm all for respecting (in general) rules to an organization that i've voluntarily signed up for, i find it difficult to do any of the below without posting actual poems. what is a poetics discussion without poems to discuss? theory. and only theory. which is not antithetical to poems, but is also not and should not be mutually exclusive from poems. theory of poems & poems themselves can be held in tandem and honored. if someone wishes to write responses as poems, why would we post a rule that discourages them from doing so? and what, precisely, does it mean to accept a poem that _is_ "directed toward a discussion of poetics issues" while also not "exchange" poems that we can use to "discuss poetic issues"? in other words, yes, posts written in "poetic form/ats" should be encouraged. who are we to say that posts should be written in block form? and why would we? metta > Tom is right -- the Welcome message states, "We do not accept postings > of creative work not directed toward a discussion of poetics issues on the > list. The Poetics List is not a venue for the posting of free-standing, > personal poems or journal entries." > > And earlier, "The Poetics List is not a forum for a general discussion > of poetry or for the exchange of poems. Our aim is to support, inform, > and extend those directions in poetry that are committed to innovations, > renovations, and investigations of form and/or/as content, to the > questioning of received forms and styles, and to the creation of the > otherwise unimagined, untried, unexpected, improbable, and impossible." > > > Should posts written in poetic form/at (broken lines? rhymed? omitting > all e's, employing recurring words? etc) that address poetics issues be > encouraged? > > Incidentally, the daily message max for the list is 75 messages per day, > with a limit of four posts per person. > > > > Thomas savage wrote: > Sorry this is not a poem. But, as I understand it, we aren't supposed to > post poems on this site, just discussions and announcements relevant to > poetry. There is another excellent site called Wryting-L where poets > from this list and, I suspect, from other sources post poems. It is set > up specifically with that intent. If you're interested in doing that, > Google Wryting-L and it should give you the relevant information. > Regards, Tom Savage > > > --------------------------------- > Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. > Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 09:01:41 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: Cox & Kim at SPT this SAT, 3/3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Small Press Traffic is pleased to present a reading by Sarah Anne Cox & Myung Mi Kim Saturday, March 3, 2007 at 7:30 p.m.?-- note special day Sarah Anne Cox’s second book, Parcel, is new from O Books. Kevin Killian: "In Parcel, Cox has written a book that speaks to our time, as though she had spent the night awake, her palms burning, mind afire. She doesn't stint, she writes as she thinks, a courageous speaking out in the face of injustice and some pretty fearsome ancient texts. Which came first, she asks, really wanting to know--kings, or cheese? Her answers have always surprised me; never more so than in this new success." Myung Mi Kim is the author of Under Flag, Dura, The Bounty, and Commons, of which Publishers Weekly says: "While much poetry has been written out of the many diasporas that have U.S. outposts, few collections capture the cultural and linguistic displacement of immigration with as much poise and resonance as Kim's fourth book, her most outstanding. Articulating our often hidden and difficult ties to each other without righteous indignation or fanfare, these poems are profoundly important and affecting." Kim is on the faculty of the Poetics Program at Buffalo. Unless otherwise noted, events are $5-10, sliding scale, free to current SPT members and CCA faculty, staff, and students. ? Unless otherwise noted, our events are presented in?Timken Lecture Hall,?California College of the Arts ?1111 Eighth Street, San Francisco (just off the intersection of 16th & Wisconsin) ?? http://www.sptraffic.org ???? _________________________________________________________________ The average US Credit Score is 675. The cost to see yours: $0 by Experian. http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=660600&bcd=EMAILFOOTERAVERAGE ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 12:10:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aryanil Mukherjee Subject: Re: You must reply to this with a poem - creative? In-Reply-To: <53240.66.24.126.94.1172507257.squirrel@smail.binghamton.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree. Wholeheartedly. Furthermore, I want to add, not even theory gets talked about very much here. We only comment...comment and announce and promote...how dull is it to comment, announce and debate poetry with out poems ! It is hard to digest the fact that politics, poverty, misogyny, Anne Nicole etc. can find a place in "POETICS" but not poems. We're in the wrong boat brother (sister). At times it feels like I'm watching a "gray muscle show". -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Metta Sama Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 11:28 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: You must reply to this with a poem - creative? while i'm all for respecting (in general) rules to an organization that i've voluntarily signed up for, i find it difficult to do any of the below without posting actual poems. what is a poetics discussion without poems to discuss? theory. and only theory. which is not antithetical to poems, but is also not and should not be mutually exclusive from poems. theory of poems & poems themselves can be held in tandem and honored. if someone wishes to write responses as poems, why would we post a rule that discourages them from doing so? and what, precisely, does it mean to accept a poem that _is_ "directed toward a discussion of poetics issues" while also not "exchange" poems that we can use to "discuss poetic issues"? in other words, yes, posts written in "poetic form/ats" should be encouraged. who are we to say that posts should be written in block form? and why would we? metta > Tom is right -- the Welcome message states, "We do not accept postings > of creative work not directed toward a discussion of poetics issues on the > list. The Poetics List is not a venue for the posting of free-standing, > personal poems or journal entries." > > And earlier, "The Poetics List is not a forum for a general discussion > of poetry or for the exchange of poems. Our aim is to support, inform, > and extend those directions in poetry that are committed to innovations, > renovations, and investigations of form and/or/as content, to the > questioning of received forms and styles, and to the creation of the > otherwise unimagined, untried, unexpected, improbable, and impossible." > > > Should posts written in poetic form/at (broken lines? rhymed? omitting > all e's, employing recurring words? etc) that address poetics issues be > encouraged? > > Incidentally, the daily message max for the list is 75 messages per day, > with a limit of four posts per person. > > > > Thomas savage wrote: > Sorry this is not a poem. But, as I understand it, we aren't supposed to > post poems on this site, just discussions and announcements relevant to > poetry. There is another excellent site called Wryting-L where poets > from this list and, I suspect, from other sources post poems. It is set > up specifically with that intent. If you're interested in doing that, > Google Wryting-L and it should give you the relevant information. > Regards, Tom Savage > > > --------------------------------- > Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. > Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 09:25:23 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: Treadwell news of the week.... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi friends, I am up at Poetry Daily today, http://www.poetrydaily.org and am reading at the Poetry Center on Thursday afternoon with Gloria Frym... Elizabeth Treadwell and Gloria Frym Thursday March 1, 2007 4:30 pm @ the Poetry Center HUM 512, SFSU, free http://www.sfsu.edu/~poetry/eventCalendar.html#MARCH Elizabeth Treadwell is the author of seven books, the most recent of which are the poetry collections Birds & Fancies (Shearsman) and Wardolly (Chax Press), both 2007. Her essay on Paula Gunn Allen will appear in Efforts & Affections: America's New Women Poets & the Generation That Inspires Them (Iowa). She is the director of Small Press Traffic, an MFA grad of SFSU, and a resident of her hometown of Oakland. Gloria Frym's most recent book of poems is Solution Simulacra (United Artists Books, 2006). Her previous collection of poems, Homeless at Home (Creative Arts Book Company), won an American Book Award in 2002, and an earlier collection, Back to Forth (The Figures) was co-recipient of the Poetry Center Book Award. She is also the author of two critically acclaimed collections of short stories: Distance No Object (City Lights Books) and How I Learned (Coffee House Press). She teaches in the MFA and BA Writing Programs at California College of the Arts, in San Francisco, and lives in Berkeley. all the best, Elizabeth Elizabeth Treadwell http://secretmint.blogspot.com http://elizabethtreadwell.com _________________________________________________________________ Don’t miss your chance to WIN 10 hours of private jet travel from Microsoft® Office Live http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0540002499mrt/direct/01/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 09:27:10 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Re: You must reply to this with a poem - creative? In-Reply-To: <026f01c759c9$03fb7c20$ea2c7a92@net.plm.eds.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Old Towne's Clock An old railroad switchman: Lost amid planks, stone and I, said pocket o' crowns he'd tuck along bathing thighs of the bridge, its boughed-legs ancient angels glistening in coats of dew -- there and below, above the Christ Child! said, "On the Voltova, Charles" an hour, hours, night clamouring a heart full of Kafka and dear, dear Irenko agj --- Aryanil Mukherjee wrote: > I agree. Wholeheartedly. Furthermore, I want to add, > not even theory > gets talked about very much here. We only > comment...comment and announce > and promote...how dull is it to comment, announce > and debate poetry with out > poems ! It is hard to digest the fact that politics, > poverty, misogyny, Anne > Nicole etc. can find a place in "POETICS" but not > poems. We're in the wrong > boat brother (sister). At times it feels like I'm > watching a "gray muscle > show". > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of Metta Sama > Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 11:28 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: You must reply to this with a poem - > creative? > > while i'm all for respecting (in general) rules to > an organization that > i've voluntarily signed up for, i find it difficult > to do any of the below > without > posting actual poems. what is a poetics discussion > without poems to discuss? > theory. and only theory. which is not antithetical > to poems, but is also > not and > should not be mutually exclusive from poems. theory > of poems & > poems themselves can be held in tandem and honored. > if someone wishes > to write responses as poems, why would we post a > rule that discourages them > from doing so? and what, precisely, does it mean to > accept a poem that _is_ > "directed toward a discussion of poetics issues" > while also not "exchange" > poems that we can use to "discuss poetic issues"? in > other words, yes, posts > written in "poetic form/ats" should be encouraged. > who are we to say that > posts should be written in block form? and why would > we? > > metta > > > > > Tom is right -- the Welcome message states, "We > do not accept postings > > of creative work not directed toward a discussion > of poetics issues on the > > list. The Poetics List is not a venue for the > posting of free-standing, > > personal poems or journal entries." > > > > And earlier, "The Poetics List is not a forum > for a general discussion > > of poetry or for the exchange of poems. Our aim is > to support, inform, > > and extend those directions in poetry that are > committed to innovations, > > renovations, and investigations of form and/or/as > content, to the > > questioning of received forms and styles, and to > the creation of the > > otherwise unimagined, untried, unexpected, > improbable, and impossible." > > > > > > Should posts written in poetic form/at (broken > lines? rhymed? omitting > > all e's, employing recurring words? etc) that > address poetics issues be > > encouraged? > > > > Incidentally, the daily message max for the list > is 75 messages per day, > > with a limit of four posts per person. > > > > > > > > Thomas savage wrote: > > Sorry this is not a poem. But, as I understand > it, we aren't supposed to > > post poems on this site, just discussions and > announcements relevant to > > poetry. There is another excellent site called > Wryting-L where poets > > from this list and, I suspect, from other sources > post poems. It is set > > up specifically with that intent. If you're > interested in doing that, > > Google Wryting-L and it should give you the > relevant information. > > Regards, Tom Savage > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. > > Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. > > > --- ____________________________________________________________________________________ Don't pick lemons. See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 12:34:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Deborah Poe Subject: Re: You must reply to this with a poem - creative? In-Reply-To: <026f01c759c9$03fb7c20$ea2c7a92@net.plm.eds.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It might be of interest to check out the discussion in April 2005 on = this subject. http://listserv.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A1=3Dind0504&L=3Dpoetics&D=3D1&I=3D= -3&O=3DD=20 "re: posting poems" -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] = On Behalf Of Aryanil Mukherjee Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 12:10 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: You must reply to this with a poem - creative? I agree. Wholeheartedly. Furthermore, I want to add, not even theory gets talked about very much here. We only comment...comment and announce and promote...how dull is it to comment, announce and debate poetry with = out poems ! It is hard to digest the fact that politics, poverty, misogyny, = Anne Nicole etc. can find a place in "POETICS" but not poems. We're in the = wrong boat brother (sister). At times it feels like I'm watching a "gray = muscle show".=20 -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] = On Behalf Of Metta Sama Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 11:28 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: You must reply to this with a poem - creative? while i'm all for respecting (in general) rules to an organization that i've voluntarily signed up for, i find it difficult to do any of the = below without posting actual poems. what is a poetics discussion without poems to = discuss? theory. and only theory. which is not antithetical to poems, but is also not and should not be mutually exclusive from poems. theory of poems & poems themselves can be held in tandem and honored. if someone wishes to write responses as poems, why would we post a rule that discourages = them from doing so? and what, precisely, does it mean to accept a poem that = _is_ "directed toward a discussion of poetics issues" while also not = "exchange" poems that we can use to "discuss poetic issues"? in other words, yes, = posts written in "poetic form/ats" should be encouraged. who are we to say = that posts should be written in block form? and why would we? metta > Tom is right -- the Welcome message states, "We do not accept = postings > of creative work not directed toward a discussion of poetics issues on = the > list. The Poetics List is not a venue for the posting of = free-standing, > personal poems or journal entries." > > And earlier, "The Poetics List is not a forum for a general = discussion > of poetry or for the exchange of poems. Our aim is to support, inform, > and extend those directions in poetry that are committed to = innovations, > renovations, and investigations of form and/or/as content, to the > questioning of received forms and styles, and to the creation of the > otherwise unimagined, untried, unexpected, improbable, and = impossible." > > > Should posts written in poetic form/at (broken lines? rhymed? = omitting > all e's, employing recurring words? etc) that address poetics issues = be > encouraged? > > Incidentally, the daily message max for the list is 75 messages per = day, > with a limit of four posts per person. > > > > Thomas savage wrote: > Sorry this is not a poem. But, as I understand it, we aren't = supposed to > post poems on this site, just discussions and announcements relevant = to > poetry. There is another excellent site called Wryting-L where poets > from this list and, I suspect, from other sources post poems. It is = set > up specifically with that intent. If you're interested in doing that, > Google Wryting-L and it should give you the relevant information. > Regards, Tom Savage > > > --------------------------------- > Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. > Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 12:13:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Geoffrey Gatza Subject: AWP Atlanta - see you there! Comments: To: ggatza@gmail.com In-Reply-To: <53240.66.24.126.94.1172507257.squirrel@smail.binghamton.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, I hope to see you in Atlanta for AWP. I'll be working the Starcherone Books table with Ted Pelton! I hear the table is #128 but that might change. Please stop on by and say hi! Best, Geoffrey Geoffrey Gatza BlazeVOX [books] www.blazevox.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 13:02:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aryanil Mukherjee Subject: Re: You must reply to this with a poem - creative? In-Reply-To: <000001c759cc$5b6b5630$6401a8c0@POEBOT> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for sending the link. No point stirring up the ashes of a dead fire. I'll prefer the flutist over the talk show host. -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Deborah Poe Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 12:34 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: You must reply to this with a poem - creative? It might be of interest to check out the discussion in April 2005 on this subject. http://listserv.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A1=ind0504&L=poetics&D=1&I=-3&O=D "re: posting poems" -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Aryanil Mukherjee Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 12:10 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: You must reply to this with a poem - creative? I agree. Wholeheartedly. Furthermore, I want to add, not even theory gets talked about very much here. We only comment...comment and announce and promote...how dull is it to comment, announce and debate poetry with out poems ! It is hard to digest the fact that politics, poverty, misogyny, Anne Nicole etc. can find a place in "POETICS" but not poems. We're in the wrong boat brother (sister). At times it feels like I'm watching a "gray muscle show". -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Metta Sama Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 11:28 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: You must reply to this with a poem - creative? while i'm all for respecting (in general) rules to an organization that i've voluntarily signed up for, i find it difficult to do any of the below without posting actual poems. what is a poetics discussion without poems to discuss? theory. and only theory. which is not antithetical to poems, but is also not and should not be mutually exclusive from poems. theory of poems & poems themselves can be held in tandem and honored. if someone wishes to write responses as poems, why would we post a rule that discourages them from doing so? and what, precisely, does it mean to accept a poem that _is_ "directed toward a discussion of poetics issues" while also not "exchange" poems that we can use to "discuss poetic issues"? in other words, yes, posts written in "poetic form/ats" should be encouraged. who are we to say that posts should be written in block form? and why would we? metta > Tom is right -- the Welcome message states, "We do not accept postings > of creative work not directed toward a discussion of poetics issues on the > list. The Poetics List is not a venue for the posting of free-standing, > personal poems or journal entries." > > And earlier, "The Poetics List is not a forum for a general discussion > of poetry or for the exchange of poems. Our aim is to support, inform, > and extend those directions in poetry that are committed to innovations, > renovations, and investigations of form and/or/as content, to the > questioning of received forms and styles, and to the creation of the > otherwise unimagined, untried, unexpected, improbable, and impossible." > > > Should posts written in poetic form/at (broken lines? rhymed? omitting > all e's, employing recurring words? etc) that address poetics issues be > encouraged? > > Incidentally, the daily message max for the list is 75 messages per day, > with a limit of four posts per person. > > > > Thomas savage wrote: > Sorry this is not a poem. But, as I understand it, we aren't supposed to > post poems on this site, just discussions and announcements relevant to > poetry. There is another excellent site called Wryting-L where poets > from this list and, I suspect, from other sources post poems. It is set > up specifically with that intent. If you're interested in doing that, > Google Wryting-L and it should give you the relevant information. > Regards, Tom Savage > > > --------------------------------- > Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. > Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 13:05:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kevin thurston Subject: Re: You must reply to this with a poem - creative? In-Reply-To: <000001c759cc$5b6b5630$6401a8c0@POEBOT> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline what is a poetics discussion without poems to discuss? poetics you can also do this thing where you refer to a poem without actually having the poem in front of you you down wit AWP? what! what! On 2/26/07, Deborah Poe wrote: > > It might be of interest to check out the discussion in April 2005 on this > subject. > http://listserv.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A1=ind0504&L=poetics&D=1&I=-3&O=D > > "re: posting poems" > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of Aryanil Mukherjee > Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 12:10 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: You must reply to this with a poem - creative? > > I agree. Wholeheartedly. Furthermore, I want to add, not even theory > gets talked about very much here. We only comment...comment and announce > and promote...how dull is it to comment, announce and debate poetry with > out > poems ! It is hard to digest the fact that politics, poverty, misogyny, > Anne > Nicole etc. can find a place in "POETICS" but not poems. We're in the > wrong > boat brother (sister). At times it feels like I'm watching a "gray muscle > show". > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU] On > Behalf Of Metta Sama > Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 11:28 AM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: You must reply to this with a poem - creative? > > while i'm all for respecting (in general) rules to an organization that > i've voluntarily signed up for, i find it difficult to do any of the below > without > posting actual poems. what is a poetics discussion without poems to > discuss? > theory. and only theory. which is not antithetical to poems, but is also > not and > should not be mutually exclusive from poems. theory of poems & > poems themselves can be held in tandem and honored. if someone wishes > to write responses as poems, why would we post a rule that discourages > them > from doing so? and what, precisely, does it mean to accept a poem that > _is_ > "directed toward a discussion of poetics issues" while also not "exchange" > poems that we can use to "discuss poetic issues"? in other words, yes, > posts > written in "poetic form/ats" should be encouraged. who are we to say that > posts should be written in block form? and why would we? > > metta > > > > > Tom is right -- the Welcome message states, "We do not accept postings > > of creative work not directed toward a discussion of poetics issues on > the > > list. The Poetics List is not a venue for the posting of free-standing, > > personal poems or journal entries." > > > > And earlier, "The Poetics List is not a forum for a general discussion > > of poetry or for the exchange of poems. Our aim is to support, inform, > > and extend those directions in poetry that are committed to innovations, > > renovations, and investigations of form and/or/as content, to the > > questioning of received forms and styles, and to the creation of the > > otherwise unimagined, untried, unexpected, improbable, and impossible." > > > > > > Should posts written in poetic form/at (broken lines? rhymed? omitting > > all e's, employing recurring words? etc) that address poetics issues be > > encouraged? > > > > Incidentally, the daily message max for the list is 75 messages per > day, > > with a limit of four posts per person. > > > > > > > > Thomas savage wrote: > > Sorry this is not a poem. But, as I understand it, we aren't supposed > to > > post poems on this site, just discussions and announcements relevant to > > poetry. There is another excellent site called Wryting-L where poets > > from this list and, I suspect, from other sources post poems. It is set > > up specifically with that intent. If you're interested in doing that, > > Google Wryting-L and it should give you the relevant information. > > Regards, Tom Savage > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. > > Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. > > > -- new address as of 2/1 299 richmond ave lower buffalo, ny 14222 usofa ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 12:46:50 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: Russell Edson - what school is he? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey Poetics - If you had to make a case that Russell Edson belongs to a particular school of American poetry, which one would it be? Language? NY School? My hunch is neither of those, so what do we call Edson's 'school'? Just wondering, Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 14:03:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Applegate Subject: Bad Noise hits hard with "NO" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable More noise at www.badnoiseproductions.com *- =20 Buffalo poetics graduate Christopher Eaton drops megaforce squadron with = "NO" {poems} available for free download now at www.badnoiseproductions.com= *- =20 Enjoy the madness of such sections as: "Skull in Rickets," "Googol Space," = and "Hissatsu onna kenshi + sing-a-long." This is the real-deal from an = unhinged mind - throw out your dictionary, download "NO." =20 Love + peace. =20 =20 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 12:18:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Stempleman Subject: Re: Russell Edson - what school is he? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 1st Gen. Am. Prose Poet > Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 12:46:50 -0600> From: aaron@BELZ.NET> Subject: Rus= sell Edson - what school is he?> To: POETICS@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU> > Hey Po= etics -> > If you had to make a case that Russell Edson belongs to a partic= ular school> of American poetry, which one would it be? Language? NY School= ? My hunch is> neither of those, so what do we call Edson's 'school'? > > J= ust wondering,> > Aaron _________________________________________________________________ Discover the new Windows Vista http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=3Dwindows+vista&mkt=3Den-US&form=3DQBR= E= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 13:23:12 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: Russell Edson - what school is he? In-Reply-To: <000f01c759d6$7a5ee020$8b2aa392@AARONLAPTOP> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pros=E9tics? Hal Today's Special The Sonnet Project http://www.xpressed.org/hsonnet.pdf Halvard Johnson =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D halvard@gmail.com halvard@earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Feb 26, 2007, at 12:46 PM, Aaron Belz wrote: > Hey Poetics - > > If you had to make a case that Russell Edson belongs to a =20 > particular school > of American poetry, which one would it be? Language? NY School? My =20= > hunch is > neither of those, so what do we call Edson's 'school'? > > Just wondering, > > Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 14:25:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Russell Edson - what school is he? In-Reply-To: <000f01c759d6$7a5ee020$8b2aa392@AARONLAPTOP> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Poetry. Not everything fits into a taxonomy, though taxonomies are undoubtedly useful for introductory courses and literary bureaucracies. Mark At 01:46 PM 2/26/2007, you wrote: >Hey Poetics - > >If you had to make a case that Russell Edson belongs to a particular school >of American poetry, which one would it be? Language? NY School? My hunch is >neither of those, so what do we call Edson's 'school'? > >Just wondering, > >Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 11:23:20 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Taylor Brady Subject: Fwd: [NewMusic] RIP: Leroy Jenkins MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="0-847909927-1172517800=:12024" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --0-847909927-1172517800=:12024 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Passing this along... Listening to his Art of Improvisation recording now, difficult spiky and beautiful music for a sad day. Taylor Note: forwarded message attached. --0-847909927-1172517800=:12024 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1341 Dear bListers, Some sad news to report...Leroy Jenkins has passed away. I think he made a very beautiful and also very unique contribution to the post jazz continuum. PG Leroy Jenkins: born March 11, 1932 in Chicago, Illinois, died February 24, 2007 in New York City (from AACM website) http://aacmchicago.org/ ...Jenkins was already performing violin at the age of 8 at his local Ebenezeer Baptist Church. The flavor of spirituals still remains in his music. He studied music in high school and then attended Florida A&M University Born in Chicago, Illinois in 1932, Jenkins was already performing violin at the age of 8 at his local Ebenezeer Baptist Church. The flavor of spirituals still remains in his music. He studied music in high school and then attended Florida A&M University where he studied with Bruce Hayden and completed his B.S. in music. For the next ten years Jenkins remained in the South teaching music. Jenkins returned to Chicago in 1965 and was drawn into the well spring of Chicago s creative music activities. Almost immediately, he joined the Association for the Advancement of Creative Music (AACM). Jenkins recalls that this union marked the first time that as a violin player he was truly welcomed into creative music performances. During this time he played and recorded with Muhal Richard Abrams , Leo Smith and Anthony Braxton . In 1969, Jenkins left for Paris with Braxton and Smith. With the addition of drummer Steve McCall , they formed the Creative Construction Company . Their 1970 performance in New York, joined by Richard Davis on bass and Abrams on piano, gave New York the first taste of the new music that Chicago musicians were creating. Jenkins continued to work with the finest creative musicians.... Archie Shepp , Albert Ayler , Alice Coltrane , Mtume , Cal Massey , to name a few. But it was the work of the collective Revolutionary Ensemble (co-founded with bassist Sirone and drummer Jerome Cooper) that gained Jenkins prominence as the most significant violinist of the modern era. par Leroy works in a multitude of contexts. His recording on Tomato, Space Minds, New Worlds, Survival in America has received rave reviews. He is performing in solo, trio and quintet contexts, and is also performing in duo settings with woodwindist Oliver Lake . Phillip Greenlief c/o Evander Music PO Box 22158 Oakland, CA 94623-9991 www.evandermusic.com _______________________________________________ Bay Area New Music Discussion Group NewMusic@music.mills.edu http://music.mills.edu/mailman/listinfo/newmusic --0-847909927-1172517800=:12024-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 18:15:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: Maggie O'Sullivan's Body of Work Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Ken Edwards's Reality Street Editions (UK) has just published Maggie O'Sullivan's **Body of Work** from the publisher: Body of Work brings together for the first time all of Maggie O'Sullivan's solo collections of poetry and visual texts published before her 1993 Reality Street book *In the House of the Shaman*. These booklets, long out of print, are here presented in facsimile, scanned from the original publications, or in some cases the original mauscripts, together with a selection of previously unpublished works. More information & my foreword to Body of Work is now up at http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/bernstein/blog/ Charles Bernstein ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 15:00:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mairead Byrne Subject: Re: Russell Edson - what school is he? Comments: To: aaron@BELZ.NET Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline This is a pretty interesting question. I think Jordan's answer was good. = Edson is, to some extent, sui generis, though a pervasive influence. = Reading Kandinsky's SOUNDS recently, I noticed strong resonances with = Edson though. So I like both the "American" and "1st generation" elements = in Jordan's definition; also, of course, the "prose poet." Quite a neat = piece of work! Mairead Mair=E9ad Byrne Associate Professor of English Rhode Island School of Design 2 College Street Providence, RI 02903 www.maireadbyrne.blogspot.com >>> aaron@BELZ.NET 02/26/07 1:46 PM >>> Hey Poetics - If you had to make a case that Russell Edson belongs to a particular = school of American poetry, which one would it be? Language? NY School? My hunch = is neither of those, so what do we call Edson's 'school'?=20 Just wondering, Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 15:02:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sina Queyras Subject: Re: Russell Edson - what school is he? In-Reply-To: <000f01c759d6$7a5ee020$8b2aa392@AARONLAPTOP> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Why does he have to be part of any school? Sina > Hey Poetics - > > If you had to make a case that Russell Edson belongs to a particular > school > of American poetry, which one would it be? Language? NY School? My hunch > is > neither of those, so what do we call Edson's 'school'? > > Just wondering, > > Aaron > -- Sina Queyras Visiting Assistant Professor Department of English Woodside Cottage Haverford College 370 Lancaster Avenue Haverford, PA 19041-1392 (610) 896-1256 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 14:22:27 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: Freedom of Expression Rights/Said Mural at San Francisco State University Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed > >Palestinian Mural in Jeopardy! > Palestinian Cultural Mural honoring Edward Said > http://www.petitiononline.com/mural/ > > Palestinians are NOT ALLOWED! > That's what the President of San Francisco State University said about >our mural. Anyone else can have one, but he's refusing to give us ours, he >says a Palestinian house key and Handala is “explicitly offensive”! >Acknowledging Palestinian roots/culture/ identity is explicitly offensive? > Don't let him get away with it. Tell your Family and Friends what's >going on. > > Also on Norman Finkelstein’s website: > http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=903 > General Union of Pal! estine S tudents (GUPS) www.sfgups.org > San Francisco State University > > In April 2005, the General Union of Palestine Students at San Francisco >State University proposed something revolutionary, to begin a process of >implementing a mural paying tribute to Edward Said and Palestinian culture >on the University campus. I After over a year of painstaking efforts by >the mural committee to follow the established process, the President of >San Francisco State University, Robert A. Corrigan, placed a moratorium on >all murals, and he demanded that the board change the rules (policy) for >the mural process and prematurely denied the Palestinian mural just before >the final stage. Two SFSU governing boards approved it but he remains >against it. It is 2007 and the mural is in jeopardy and needs your >immediate help The SF State president, Robert Corrigan claims the mural >represents a “culture of violence” and is “hate to Jews.” He says what is >“explicitly offensive” is each element individually; a Palestinian house >key and Handala, a refugee > cartoon character. Acknowledging Palestinian roots/culture/ identity is >explicitly offensive? He allowed other murals up on the Cesar Chavez >Student Center, such as the Malcolm X mural, the Cesar Chavez mural, the >Filipino Mural, the Pan Asian and Pacific Islander Mural, that depict >struggles of refugees and human rights, >(http://www.sfsustudentcenter.com/about/murals.php) however the >administrative reps on the board have been hell bent on stopping our mural >since day one before they knew anything about it. Please sign the latest >online petition, and/or writing a letter to President Corrigan from >yourself or your organization, and/or financially support the legal >process to show support for the mural and all its elements including the >Palestinian house key and Handala! Go to www.sfgups.org for more info. >(SFSU newspaper website = xpress.sfsu.edu) Our artists are Dr. Fayeq Oweis >and Dr. Susan Greene; a Palestinian Muslim man and an American Jewish >woman. And > they would be painting Edward Said, a Christian Palestinian. This in it >self is a symbol of peace and co-existence! > > Thanks for the support! > > > > What You Can Do > > 1. Sign the New Online Petition: >http://www.petitiononline.com/mural/ > > 2. Write a Letter or email SFSU President Robert A. Corrigan: >(corrigan@sfsu.edu, gups@sfsu.edu, cortez@sfsu.edu) > > &nbs! p; > President Robert Corrigan > 1600 Holloway Avenue > San Francisco, CA 94132 > (email: corrigan@sfsu.edu) > > PLEASE CC: > > General Union of Palestine Students > 1650 Holloway Ave > Business Office, M100B ! &n bsp; > San Francisco, CA 94132 > (email: gups@sfsu.edu) > > and CC: > > Maria Liliana Cortez > 1650 Holloway Ave > Business Office, C-134 > San Francisco, CA 94132 > (email: cortez@sfsu.edu) > > 3. Make a Donation: Donations are tax- deductible. > Financial Support for the mural; The American Arab Anti-Discrimination >Committee San Francisco Chapter is helping with the collection of >donations. > > Please make checks payable to: ADCSF/AGAPE with “GUPS” written in the >memo section of the check. > Please send your donation to: > The ADC-SF (American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee of San >Francisco) > 522 Valencia Street > San Francisco, California, 94110 > email: adcsfintern@adcsf.org Phone (415) 861-7444 > > >--------------------------------- > TV dinner still cooling? >Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV. > > > > __._,_.___ >Messages in this topic (1) > Reply (via web post) | Start a >new topic > Messages | Files > | Photos | Links | Database > | Polls | Members | >Calendar > To subscribe to the group, >send an email to: WIB-LA-subscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Please restrict your messages to subject matter related to the Middle >East. > > Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required) > Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch >format to Traditional > Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups >Terms of Use | Unsubscribe > > Visit Your Group > SPONSORED LINKS > > Nh lake region real estate > New hampshire lake region real estate > Los angeles > Middle east phone card > Middle east conflict > > >Yahoo! News > Movies News > All the latest > on films and stars > > Yahoo! Mail > You're invited! > Try the all-new > Yahoo! Mail Beta > > New web site? > Drive traffic now. > Get your business > on Yahoo! search. > > > > . > > > __,_._,___ > > >--------------------------------- >Bored stiff? Loosen up... >Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games. _________________________________________________________________ Play Flexicon: the crossword game that feeds your brain. PLAY now for FREE. http://zone.msn.com/en/flexicon/default.htm?icid=flexicon_hmtagline ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 12:35:43 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Weishaus Subject: "The Way North" North-2 text-3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable North-2 text-3 http://web.pdx.edu/~pdx00282/North/North-2/text-3.htm Introduction: http://web.pdx.edu/~pdx00282/North/Intro.htm -Joel __________________________________ Joel Weishaus Research Faculty Department of English Portland State University Portland, Oregon http://web.pdx.edu/~pdx00282 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 12:45:52 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hugh Behm-Steinberg Subject: Re: Russell Edson - what school is he? In-Reply-To: <000f01c759d6$7a5ee020$8b2aa392@AARONLAPTOP> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I think this is sort of a fool's errand too, like cataloging your record collection, but I'd affiliate him with other 60's-70's surrealists like James Tate, Charles Simic, Mark Strand, Bill Knott. Hugh Behm-Steinberg Aaron Belz wrote: Hey Poetics - If you had to make a case that Russell Edson belongs to a particular school of American poetry, which one would it be? Language? NY School? My hunch is neither of those, so what do we call Edson's 'school'? Just wondering, Aaron --------------------------------- Check out the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 21:50:03 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cralan kelder Subject: progenitor Edson In-Reply-To: <000f01c759d6$7a5ee020$8b2aa392@AARONLAPTOP> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable This is excerpted from an excerpted bit of interview with edson published i= n Sentence No. 4;=20 =B3What name one gives or doesn=B9t give to one=B9s writing is far less important than the work itself. I called my first published books fables, looking, with the help of this label, for a way to describe the pieces I had been writing since sexual awareness. But fables are message stories, and I don=B9t like messages=8AAt that time in my career the term prose poetry seemed more related to French toast or French fries=8AThere is too much emphasis on genre vis-=E0-vis the prose poem. For me the spirit of the prose poem is writing without genre; to go naked with only one=B9s imagination.=B2 For me, I think I recall seeing the term =B3pro-genitor of the prose poem=B2 somewhere to decribe Edson, which kind of fits with the oft quirky sexualit= y running through his work. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 14:56:36 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: Re: Russell Edson - what school is he? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit So why do you say "poetry" and not just "writing"? >Poetry. > >Not everything fits into a taxonomy, though taxonomies are >undoubtedly useful for introductory courses and literary bureaucracies. > >Mark > >At 01:46 PM 2/26/2007, you wrote: >>Hey Poetics - >> >>If you had to make a case that Russell Edson belongs to a particular school >>of American poetry, which one would it be? Language? NY School? My hunch is >>neither of those, so what do we call Edson's 'school'? >> >>Just wondering, >> >>Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 17:13:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jacqueline Gens Subject: Re: Russell Edson - what school is he? In-Reply-To: <000f01c759d6$7a5ee020$8b2aa392@AARONLAPTOP> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, master of the prose poem as others here noted but beyond that Russell Edson is an original mind, sort of the Mr. Natural of Poetics--so funny, it hurts. Jacqueline Gens On Feb 26, 2007, at 1:46 PM, Aaron Belz wrote: > Hey Poetics - > > If you had to make a case that Russell Edson belongs to a particular > school > of American poetry, which one would it be? Language? NY School? My > hunch is > neither of those, so what do we call Edson's 'school'? > > Just wondering, > > Aaron > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 17:39:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Orange Subject: Leroy Jenkins 1932-2007 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Born in Chicago, composer and violinist Leroy Jenkins was one of the most important musicians to emerge from the AACM (Association for the Advancement of Creative Musicians), the legendary collective of which he was a member until his death in 2007. Like many of the Association's members, Jenkins studied under the legendary Walter Dyett at DuSable High School, where he learned the alto saxophone. He received a music degree (in violin) from Florida A&M University, where he studied composition and the classical masters of the violin. Subsequently, he taught music both in Mobile, Alabama (1961-5) and in the Chicago schools (1965-9). During the latter period, Jenkins joined the AACM. He made his first recording with Muhal Richard Abrams, Anthony Braxton, and Leo Smith in the sixties before achieving international acclaim in Paris along with Braxton, Smith, and the Art Ensemble of Chicago. In 1970 Jenkins moved to New York, where he founded the Revolutionary Ensemble, the critically acclaimed ensemble which recorded 7 albums and toured North America and Europe. When many of the AACM musicians left during 1969, Jenkins went to Europe with Anthony Braxton & Leo Smith. There, with drummer Steve McCall, they were called the Creative Construction Company. He also played with Ornette Coleman, whose house he & Braxton stayed at when they subsequently moved to New York City. Playing with Taylor (1970) and Braxton (1969-72), he also worked with Albert Ayler, Cal Massey, Alice Coltrane, Archie Shepp & Rahsaan Roland Kirk. Between 1971-7, he played in his Revolutionary Ensemble, a trio featuring Sirone (Norris Jones) on bass & trombone, and drummer/pianist Jerome Cooper. Thereafter, he toured the US & Europe, led the Mixed Quintet (Jenkins and 4 woodwind players), a blues-based band called Sting, and again played with Cecil Taylor. Jenkins continually reinvented his own language in music. His was an extraordinary bonding of a variety of sounds associated with the black music tradition, while simultaneously bridging with European styles. His intermeshing of jazz and classical influences left critics wondering at his musical identity; however, as one San Francisco Chronicle critic said, "Jenkins is a master who cuts across all categories." Jenkins received a number of major commissions and was in demand for experimental and theater-based work. Mother of Three Sons, a dance-opera collaboration with Bill T. Jones, premiered in Aachaen, Germany and had ten performances. The Rockefeller Foundation, National Endowment for the Arts, Meet the Composer, and Mutable Music awarded him numerous commissioning funds and grants to support several new theater works. Among them are Fresh Faust (a jazz-rap opera), which was performed in workshops in Boston at the Institute of Contemporary Arts; The Negro Burial Ground (a cantata), performed at The Kitchen, New York City; and The Three Willies (a multimedia opera), performed at the Painted Bride, Philadelphia. He was also commissioned to create new works for the Brooklyn Philharmonic, the Cleveland Symphony Orchestra, the Albany Symphony, the Lincoln Center Out of Doors, and the Kronos Quartet. Among his recordings are 3 Compositions of New Jazz (1968; Delmark); Lifelong Ambitions (1977; Black Saint; with Muhal Richard Abrams); Space Minds, New Worlds, Survival America (1978; Tomato); Live (1992, Black Saint); Carla Bley's Escalator Over The Hill and Braxton's Three Compositions Of New Jazz. Leroy Jenkins died on February 24, 2007, in Brooklyn, NY. [http://www.otherminds.org/shtml/Jenkins.shtml] ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 14:58:29 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Jorgensen Subject: Amy Re: You must reply to this with a poem - creative? In-Reply-To: <107092.53291.qm@web83310.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Amy's kinda right about this, I think. I mean, with all the info we have access to online, why pollute this list with more than it can digest. This is a space cafe - not a poetry reading with loads of open mic. If anything, we should learn better at better bickering! We should attack the establishment -- or, join aol. agj --- amy king wrote: > Tom is right -- the Welcome message states, "We do > not accept postings of creative work not directed > toward a discussion of poetics issues on the list. > The Poetics List is not a venue for the posting of > free-standing, personal poems or journal entries." > > And earlier, "The Poetics List is not a forum for > a general discussion of poetry or for the exchange > of poems. Our aim is to support, inform, and extend > those directions in poetry that are committed to > innovations, renovations, and investigations of form > and/or/as content, to the questioning of received > forms and styles, and to the creation of the > otherwise unimagined, untried, unexpected, > improbable, and impossible." > > > Should posts written in poetic form/at (broken > lines? rhymed? omitting all e's, employing recurring > words? etc) that address poetics issues be > encouraged? > > Incidentally, the daily message max for the list > is 75 messages per day, with a limit of four posts > per person. > > > > Thomas savage wrote: > Sorry this is not a poem. But, as I understand it, > we aren't supposed to post poems on this site, just > discussions and announcements relevant to poetry. > There is another excellent site called Wryting-L > where poets from this list and, I suspect, from > other sources post poems. It is set up specifically > with that intent. If you're interested in doing > that, Google Wryting-L and it should give you the > relevant information. Regards, Tom Savage > > > --------------------------------- > Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. > Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. > --- ____________________________________________________________________________________ Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 20:31:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcus Bales Subject: March 3 and March 10 Events at Gallery 324 in the Galleria downtown. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 March 3 and March 10 Events at Gallery 324 in the Galleria downtown. PLEASE ENTER ALL EVENTS THROUGH THE PARKING GARAGE OR THE 12TH STREET ENTRANCE TO THE GALLERIA. March 3 – Saturday at Noon Patti O’Luanaigh, Claire McMahon Mary O’Malley March 10 – Saturday at Noon Joanne Cornelius, Dan Smith March 10 – 24 -- Opening Reception March 10, 6 – 9 pm Art from Odessa, Ukraine A collection of artists from Odessa, Ukraine, presented by Lillia Feinstein and Brennan, Manna & Diamond part of the proceeds benefit: Susan G Komen for the Cure Artists include: Alex Schvetz Uri Gavrilchenko Tanya Shubina Oleg Nedosheeko Irakliy Savgulidze Orik Zagrabyan Alex Malik Valentin Philipenko Irina Dobrovetskaya Sergei Belik\Vera Kulgina Tanya Goncharwnko Alex Lantukov Victor Sapatov Alex Strelnikov Igor Vareshkin Viatalik Kuzman Greg Palatnika Natasha Stasukova Curated by Jody Hawk and Bernadette Glorioso For More Information: Gallery 324 at the Galleria 1301 East Ninth Street Cleveland, Ohio 44114 216/780-1522 PARKING INFORMATION $3.00 Parking in the Galleria Parking Garage after 4pm Weekdays Special Price $1.00 Parking in the Galleria Parking Garage Saturdays Free parking on E 9th and E 12th Streets after 6pm Free parking on St Clair after 7 pm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 17:36:24 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Russell Edson - what school is he? In-Reply-To: <000f01c759d6$7a5ee020$8b2aa392@AARONLAPTOP> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Hoover classified him with Rothenberg, Wakoski, and some others as part of the "Deep Image" school in the norton postmodern american. On Mon, 26 Feb 2007, Aaron Belz wrote: > Hey Poetics - > > If you had to make a case that Russell Edson belongs to a particular school > of American poetry, which one would it be? Language? NY School? My hunch is > neither of those, so what do we call Edson's 'school'? > > Just wondering, > > Aaron > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 22:48:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Russell Edson - what school is he? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I could be wrong, but it sounds like a hail mary play to me. I know all of the principals, including Edson, who read for me several times in the 70s and appeared in my journal Broadway Boogie. As far as I know he didn't hang out with Jerry or Diane or for that matter Kelly or Eshleman, and his work and theirs are very different. And Deep Image lasted as a self-designation for the blink of an eye. Not that it matters much. They're all sui generis. And the toxonomies are of limited use. I'll go with "call me what you want except late for dinner." Mark At 08:36 PM 2/26/2007, you wrote: >Hoover classified him with Rothenberg, Wakoski, and some others as >part of the "Deep Image" school in the norton postmodern american. > > >On Mon, 26 Feb 2007, Aaron Belz wrote: > >>Hey Poetics - >> >>If you had to make a case that Russell Edson belongs to a particular school >>of American poetry, which one would it be? Language? NY School? My hunch is >>neither of those, so what do we call Edson's 'school'? >> >>Just wondering, >> >>Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 19:46:07 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Rothenberg Subject: Celebrate Golden Handcuff's Review at Moe's MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit AT MOE'S: Monday, March 5th: readings from Golden Handcuffs Magazine Editor Lou Rowan will MC this event featuring contributors David Bromige, Laynie Browne, Richard Denner, Michael McClure, David Meltzer, and Michael Rothenberg Moe's Books 2476 Telegraph Avenue Berkeley CA 94704 Internet/Art: (510) 849-2133 Main store: (510) 849-2087 moe@moesbooks.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 22:48:51 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: REPRINTING OF "UKANHAVYRFUCKINCITIBAK." by d.a. levy Comments: To: Theory and Writing Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed -----Original Message----- From: Russell & Susan Salamon [mailto:thesalamons@earthlink.net] Sent: Mon 2/26/2007 9:08 PM To: Susan & Russell Salamon Subject: REPRINTING OF "UKANHAVYRFUCKINCITIBAK." by d.a. levy Dear d.a. levy legend Supporter or Fan: I will reprint d.a. levy's UKANHAVYRFUCKINCITIBAK. by May 1, 2007. It has been long out of print and the remaining copies are collector's items which sell for from between $100 and $400, maybe more. New readers must have access to this historic work. I have found a good price in Santa Ana, California (from the same man who printed my Descent into Cleveland). The original book was collected and edited by r.j.s.; published by t.l. kryss, GHOST PRESS CLEVELAND, in a limited edition of 1,000 copies. To get one of the last original copies contact r.j.s. His address is: r.j.s. 13138 Pond Rd., Burton, OH 44021 There is so much history and good material in this book that it stands as a document for freedom of thought and freedom of speech from the exciting Sixties and the mimeograph revolution in Cleveland, Ohio. New readers should have access to copies, but it should stay in its original form. (The printer assures me he can scan it to look pretty much as it is, except for the color silk screens, which when scanned, will be in black and white.) I will not add anything except maybe a little history paragraph with names of Patrons. I can't fund the entire printing myself, so I am asking Patrons and levy Supporters to buy a minimum of 100 dollars worth of books, which gives you 12 copies at $8.33 cents. This should also cover shipping costs by media mail. If you want only one, look for it at Mac's Backs in Cleveland, or contact me later and I will sell you one for $20. d. a. levy rejected copyright (called it "copyrot") and r.j.s and Tom Kryss are in agreement with this project, so going ahead is not a problem. If you have mailing lists, please forward this email to them. If you know patrons and levy collectors from early days, or from right now, please send their names so that I may contact them. (I know I have missing names, such as, Kent Taylor.) I want to have the book ready by May 1, 2007, so please act fast and send in your 1, 2, 3, 4, 500, or 1,000 or 10,000 dollars. Example 1: A class gets together, funds 200 dollars and gets 24 books. Example 2: If you are a leader in your area, you can round up advanced sales from your group and get the books at cost. Example 3: You may have libraries in mind or university libraries to which you may want to give a book. Thanks for your attention. Please make checks to: Russell Salamon 10537 Chandler Blvd. North Hollywood, CA 91601-2926 818-761-4568 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 21:14:42 -0800 Reply-To: editor@pavementsaw.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Subject: Re: Russell Edson - what school is he? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Could you post a poem of his so we could figure it out? >>Re: Russell Edson - what school is he? Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus, OH 43206 http://pavementsaw.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 21:25:37 -0800 Reply-To: editor@pavementsaw.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 25 Feb 2007 to 26 Feb 2007 (#2007-57) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit We will be at AWP in Atlanta stop by our table and say hello. Feel free to meet some of our authors, many will be present reading and/or presenting at (or off site) the conference including Steve Davenport (has 2 readings actually), Ken Waldman, Rachel Simon, Kaya Oakes, Dan Boehl, Susan Terris, Jeffrey Levine, Chris Arigo, Dana Curtis and many others. Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus, OH 43206 http://pavementsaw.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 23:31:03 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: Re: Russell Edson - Daniil Kharms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Though of a different nation and time, I would say the same school as Daniil Kharms. This is from Kharms' notebook, 1937: "There lived a redheaded man who had no eyes or ears. He didn’t have hair either, so he was called a redhead arbitrarily. He couldn’t talk because he had no mouth. He had no nose either. He didn’t even have arms or legs. He had no stomach, he had no back, he had no spine, and he had no innards at all. He didn’t have anything. So we don’t even know who we’re talking about. It’s better that we don’t talk about him any more." - Gabe Also, see http://www.scn.org/realpoetik/Daniil-Kharms03.htm and more http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniil_Kharms THE LECTURE Pushkov said: "What is woman? An engine of love,"--and immediately got punched in the face. "What for?" asked Pushkov but, receiving no answer, continued: "This is what I think: you have to roll up to women from below. Women love that, they only pretend they don't." Here Pushkov was again socked in the face. "What's going on, comrades? Fine, if that's the case, I won't even talk!" said Pushkov but, after a quarter of a minute, continued: "Women are arranged in such a way that they are all soft and moist." Here Pushkov again got socked in the face. Pushkov tried to look as if he didn't notice anything and continued: "If you sniff a woman..." But here Pushkov got smashed in the face so hard that he grabbed his cheek and said: "Comrades, it is absolutely impossible to lecture under such conditions. If this happens again, I won't talk!" Pushkov waited a quarter of a minute and continued: "Where were we? Oh--yes! So: Women love to look at themselves. They sit down in front of the mirror totally naked..." As he said that word he was punched in the face again. "Naked," repeated Pushkov. "Pow!" they whacked him in the face. "Naked!" shouted Pushkov. "Pow!" he got punched in the face. "Naked! Naked everywhere! Tits and ass!" shouted Pushkov. "Pow! Pow! Pow!" they kept punching him in the face. "Tits and ass with a washtub!" Pushkov was shouting. "Pow! Pow!" the punches rained down. "Tits and ass with a tail!" shouted Pushkov, spinning to avoid the punches. "Naked nun!" But then Pushkov was hit with such force that he lost consciousness and fell, as if mowed down, upon the floor. 12 August 1940; translated by Eugene Ostashevsky ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 02:09:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinsky Subject: 1 Fw: hello everyone we're back and bolder than ever some Poetry gigs for you all from dalachinsky and otomo Comments: To: Acousticlv@aol.com, AdeenaKarasick@cs.com, AGosfield@aol.com, alonech@acedsl.com, Altjazz@aol.com, amirib@aol.com, Amramdavid@aol.com, anansi1@earthlink.net, AnselmBerrigan@aol.com, arlenej2@verizon.net, Barrywal23@aol.com, bdlilrbt@icqmail.com, butchershoppoet@hotmail.com, CarolynMcClairPR@aol.com, CaseyCyr@aol.com, CHASEMANHATTAN1@aol.com, Djmomo17@aol.com, Dsegnini1216@aol.com, Gfjacq@aol.com, Hooker99@aol.com, rakien@gmail.com, jeromerothenberg@hotmail.com, Jeromesala@aol.com, JillSR@aol.com, JoeLobell@cs.com, JohnLHagen@aol.com, kather8@katherinearnoldi.com, Kevtwi@aol.com, krkubert@hotmail.com, LakiVaz@aol.com, Lisevachon@aol.com, Nuyopoman@AOL.COM, Pedevski@aol.com, pom2@pompompress.com, Rabinart@aol.com, Rcmorgan12@aol.com, reggiedw@comcast.net, RichKostelanetz@aol.com, RnRBDN@aol.com, Smutmonke@aol.com, sprygypsy@yahoo.com, SHoltje@aol.com, Sumnirv@aol.com, tcumbie@nyc.rr.com, velasquez@nyc.com, VITORICCI@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yuko & steve with special guest STEPHANIE STONE : Tuesday, March 6th 8 PM at the Stone on the corner of Ave. C and E 2nd St. admission $5-10 sliding scale (one or the other) followed @ 10 PM by Amiri and Amina Baraka & guests separate admission of $10 ___________________________________________________ Thursday, March 8 - 10PM for Praise Bukowski Night 3 -- celebrating the work and life of Charles Bukowski featuring Steve Cannon, Matthew Cummings, Steve Dalachinsky, Gary Glasner, Bob Holman, Big Mike, David Huberman, Tsaurah Litzky, Thad Rutkowski, Moonshine Shorey, Danny Shot, Marjorie Tesser, Mike Topp, Deanna Zandt & More! + Open Reading FREE (one drink minimum) + midnight screening of Born Into This, John Dulligan's acclaimed documentary in which Bukowski speaks! Bowery Poetry Club, 308 Bowery NYC (between Houston & Bleecker Sts.) 1-212- 334-6414 ________________________________________________________ steve dalachinsky & Robert Morgan ( poet & art historian ) in a special evening of poetry Thursday, March 15th @ 7 PM @ FUSION ARTS MUSEUM 57 Stanton Street ( near Eldridge ) DONATION __________________________________________ SHaloM NewMan presents @ Pratt Institute - in Manhattan 144 w 14th street March 16 @ 7 PM exhibit and readings featuring steve, Yuko, Jim Feast and many others... opening at 5 pm thadeus rutkowski merry fortune caril weirzbecki hal sirowitz carl watson _______________________________ sunday march 25 8 pm benefit for the stone e. second and ave c 8pm improv nite run by sabir mateen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 02:11:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dalachinsky Subject: 1 Comments: To: Acousticlv@aol.com, AdeenaKarasick@cs.com, AGosfield@aol.com, alonech@acedsl.com, Altjazz@aol.com, amirib@aol.com, Amramdavid@aol.com, anansi1@earthlink.net, AnselmBerrigan@aol.com, arlenej2@verizon.net, Barrywal23@aol.com, bdlilrbt@icqmail.com, butchershoppoet@hotmail.com, CarolynMcClairPR@aol.com, CaseyCyr@aol.com, CHASEMANHATTAN1@aol.com, Djmomo17@aol.com, Dsegnini1216@aol.com, Gfjacq@aol.com, Hooker99@aol.com, rakien@gmail.com, jeromerothenberg@hotmail.com, Jeromesala@aol.com, JillSR@aol.com, JoeLobell@cs.com, JohnLHagen@aol.com, kather8@katherinearnoldi.com, Kevtwi@aol.com, krkubert@hotmail.com, LakiVaz@aol.com, Lisevachon@aol.com, Nuyopoman@AOL.COM, Pedevski@aol.com, pom2@pompompress.com, Rabinart@aol.com, Rcmorgan12@aol.com, reggiedw@comcast.net, RichKostelanetz@aol.com, RnRBDN@aol.com, Smutmonke@aol.com, sprygypsy@yahoo.com, SHoltje@aol.com, Sumnirv@aol.com, tcumbie@nyc.rr.com, velasquez@nyc.com, VITORICCI@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lise Vachon Rashied Ali, Byard Lancaster Peter Zummo, Johnny Reinhard Vito Ricci Sunday, March 4 6PM Bowery Poetry Club 308 Bowery at Bleecker F train to 2nd avenue 6 train to Bleecker admission $10 www.lise-vachon.com AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 07:12:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Recent Nomadics Blog Posts Comments: cc: Britis-Irish List , Poetryetc provides a venue for a dialogue relating to poetry and poetics Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Recent posts on Nomadics @ http://pjoris.blogspot.com: 12 months / 12 writers Lars Gustafsson Weighs In Anna Gr=E9ki Egyptian Blogger Jailed A site for Philippe Lacoue-Labarthe Prescott on Ice (Melting) George Lewis on the AACM & American Experimentalism enjoy! (not a post, not a command, just a wish) Pierre =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D "It may well be the case that one has to wait a long time to find out hwether the title of avant-garde is deserved." =97 Jean-Fran=E7ois Lyotard =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Pierre Joris 244 Elm Street Albany NY 12202 h: 518 426 0433 c: 518 225 7123 o: 518 442 40 71 Euro cell: (011 33) 6 75 43 57 10 email: joris@albany.edu http://pierrejoris.com Nomadics blog: http://pjoris.blogspot.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 06:21:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: charles alexander Subject: help the Steinfeld artists, please Comments: To: pogdir@yahoogroups.com, pog@yahoogroups.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Friends: I have written before, here and on the chaxblog, about the situation facing= =20 the Steinfeld Warehouse artists, which include Chax Press. In late November= =20 all tenants of our building were given "evacuation" notices, to be out by=20 Jan. 31, 2007. That evacuation date was soon delayed until March 31. The=20 primary reason given for the notice was that the state of Arizona Dept. of= =20 Transportation, based on a report from their director of demolitions (who=20 is not a structural engineer), after a cursory walk-through, advised ADOT=20 that the building is not safe. The artists in the building commissioned and= =20 paid for a full examination by a licensed structural engineer (just=20 completed) that states that there are three necessary safety repairs, but=20 these do not present health and safety concerns, and that there is no=20 reason that the building should be evacuated before or during the=20 accomplishment of these repairs. We know that ADOT is considering our=20 request that the evacuation notice either be rescinded, or that adequate=20 time (1 to 2 years) be given to further study, develop, and implement a=20 plan for our building, and that artists/tenants in the building be allowed= =20 to remain for that period of one to two years. Many people have asked me if= =20 they can write in support of Chax Press and the artists at the Steinfeld=20 Warehouse. The answer is "yes" and the time is NOW, as we expect some=20 decision to be made by the State of Arizona very soon. So if you are so inclined, please write a letter or email in your own=20 words, based on the letter below =97 if you wish to include anything of your= =20 own experience or benefit from the work of Chax Press or any other=20 artists/tenants of the building, that would be fine. Even a very brief=20 one-sentence letter or email stating "Please let the current artists and=20 tenants remain at the Steinfeld Warehouse for as long as possible," would=20 be greatly appreciated. Please send email to Kristin Almquist (the governor's Southern Arizona=20 staffperson) Teresa Welborn (the spokesperson for the Arizona Dept.= =20 of Transportation) Nina Trasoff (Tucson city council member, head of= =20 subcommittee on Downtown Arts & Culture) and/or send paper mail to: The Honorable Janet Napolitano Governor of Arizona 1700 West Washington Phoenix, Arizona 85007 and Councilperson Nina Trasoff Midtown Ward Six 3202 East 1st Street Tucson, Arizona 85716 Phone calls might be useful, too, and I'll update this post with phone=20 numbers soon. Thank you! Charles Alexander Dear Governor Napolitano and the Arizona Department of Transportation: I am writing to support the continued presence and creative work of the=20 artists and tenants of the Steinfeld Warehouse in Tucson, Arizona. These=20 tenants include Chax Press, Dinnerware Arts, Alamo Woodworkers Collective,= =20 and six individual artists (Cynthia Miller, Betina Fink, Joe Labate, Laura= =20 La Fave, Elizabeth Criger, and Mary Theresa Dietz). The presence of these= =20 artists in the Steinfeld Warehouse also effects their employees, interns,=20 volunteers, participants in their educational programs, and several other=20 artists who use the building for storage of art works. For more than 20=20 years the Steinfeld artists have contributed to the Tucson community as=20 well as to artistic communities and audiences throughout the United States= =20 and beyond, through the production of literary books, artists' books, fine= =20 woodworks, extraordinary visual art exhibitions, and the creation of=20 paintings, sculptures, installations, and other works exhibited throughout= =20 Arizona as well as the United States, and in London, Paris, Berlin, Mexico= =20 City, and countless places around the globe. It is difficult to think of a= =20 more productive and resourceful art center in Arizona than the Steinfeld=20 Warehouse. The individual artists, nonprofit arts organizations, and=20 artists' collective there should be allowed to stay. I understand that a recent structural engineering report declares that the= =20 building is in need of minor "shoring and bracing" work, which the artists= =20 are determined to accomplish if they are given a year or two of continued=20 tenancy in the building. This same report also declares that such repair=20 work does not require evacuation of the building. I know that plans are in= =20 the works to eventually rehabilitate the building thoroughly, requiring=20 major work that may require temporary building evacuation. However, that=20 work is four or more years away, and the worst thing that could happen to=20 the building in the interim is to have it stand empty, at the mercy of=20 weather, vandals, and entropy, without active tenants, such as the=20 Steinfeld artists have been, in place to maintain and upgrade the building,= =20 as they have done for twenty years at their own cost with little or no help= =20 from their landlord. Please allow the Steinfeld artists to remain in their space for as long as= =20 possible =97 at least for one to two years, and hopefully in perpetuity. The= =20 future of the developing Tucson Historic Warehouse Arts District depends on= =20 the active presence of artists in the Steinfeld Warehouse, a shining light= =20 for literature and the arts in Tucson. Let it remain so, now and for the=20 future. charles alexander / chax press fold the book inside the book keep it open always read from the inside out speak then Steinfeld Warehouse artist Chax Press executive director WAMO President 520-620-1626 (studio) 520-275-4330 (cell) chax@theriver.com chax.org 101 W. Sixth St. Tucson, AZ 85701-1000 =20 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 08:49:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Burt Kimmelman Subject: Burt Kimmelman's New Chapbook Available MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There Are Words by Burt Kimmelman, published by Dos Madres Press, is now = available, pre-publication date, at http://www.dosmadres.com. A CD of = Kimmelman reading the poems in this chapbook is available separately. =20 "In There Are Words, Kimmelman strives for and often attains 'the simple = / lettering stating / the facts'-his own words."=20 - Samuel Menashe =20 "Burt Kimmelman's poems flourish as they pivot from a repertoire of = reiterated subjects-works of art, natural landscapes, family, the animal = world-to a transfiguring notion of their properties and possibilities. = For over twenty-five years, this practice has produced dynamic patterns = of insight, patterns comprised of recurring figures and forms which = nevertheless shift in their relations to his poetic witness." - Jon Curley, Talisman: A Journal of Contemporary Poetry and = Poetics =20 About the Author: =20 Burt Kimmelman has published four previous collections of poetry -- = Musaics (1992), First Life (2000), The Pond at Cape May Point (2002), a = collaboration with the painter Fred Caruso, and Somehow (2005). For over = a decade, he was Senior Editor of Poetry New York: A Journal of Poetry = and Translation. He is a professor of English at New Jersey Institute of = Technology and the author of two book-length literary studies: The = "Winter Mind": William Bronk and American Letters (1998); and, The = Poetics of Authorship in the Later Middle Ages: The Emergence of the = Modern Literary Persona (1996, paperback 1999). He also edited The Facts = on File Companion to 20th-Century American Poetry (2005).=20 =20 Other authors published by Dos Madres Press include: =20 Annie Finch Norman Finkelstein Michael Heller Robert Murphy Peter O'Leary Henry Weinfield Tyrone Williams and others =20 About Dos Madres Press: =20 Founded in 2004 by Robert J. Murphy, Dos Madres Press is dedicated to = the belief that the small press is essential to the vitality of = contemporary literature as a carrier of the new voice and new works by = established poets, as well as the older, sometimes forgotten voices of = the past. And in an ever more virtual world, to the creation of fine = books pleasing to the eye and hand. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 13:57:21 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Raymond Bianchi Subject: Glomski Bianchi Reading at Prairie Lights in Iowa City Comments: To: editor@pavementsaw.org Comments: cc: David Baratier MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://news-releases.uiowa.edu/2007/february/021607glomski-bianchi-pl.html Please check out this link for a reading that I will be giving with fellow Iowa Alumnus Chris Glomski on Friday in Iowa City. If you are in the area we would love to see you at Prairie Lights. thanks Ray Bianchi ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 07:19:58 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brigitte Byrd Subject: Ahsahta Press Reading in Atlanta: Room change MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi again, I just found out that the Ahsahta Press Reading which will be held at the Defoor Centre on Thursday, March 1 (see details and directions below) has been moved to the Chattahoochee room--instead of the Reading room. Ahsahta Press Reading Thursday, March 1, 7:30-10 The Defoor Centre Chattahootchee Room 1710 Defoor Avenue NW (downtown Atlanta, not far from the hotel) http://www.defoorcentre.com Paige Ackerson-Kiely, Carrie Olivia Adams, SusanBriante, Brigitte Byrd, Lisa Fishman, Noah Eli Gordon, Kate Greenstreet, Janet Holmes, Karla Kelsey, Kristi Maxwell, Ethan Paquin, Susan Tichy Brigitte Byrd http://a-s.clayton.edu/bbyrd/Homepage.htm ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 10:23:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: Fwd: HOW2 SPECIAL ISSUE ON WOMEN AND ECO-POETICS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 12:58:58 +0000 >To: forlists@shadoof.net >From: Penny Florence >Subject: Fwd: HOW2 SPECIAL ISSUE ON WOMEN AND ECO-POETICS > >Dear friends and colleagues > >I am currently editing an issue of How2 on women and eco-poetics -- >please see >http://how2calls.blogspot.com/ for >the call for papers/creative work if you are interested. As I'm sure >most of you know, How2 accepts work by women and work on women (by >both men and women) who wrote or currently write in the modernist or >contemporary experimental tradition. I've cast my net far and wide >here, so please feel free to cast it wider and inform anyone you >think may be interested. The deadline for accepting work is 18 May >and further guidelines regarding submission can be found at the address above. > > >Thank you very much > > >Harriet Tarlo ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 09:24:23 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charlie Rossiter Subject: Poems: to post or not to post MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I think the folks did a good job in the recent go-round about haiku of posting poems in the interest of a discussion of poetics. I think what many are saying, and I agree, is we don't want to getting posts of poems that are posted for no other reason that to say "here's my great new poem, please tell me I'm clever" or "notice me, notice me" etcetc... We could also say, if you want to post a poem for the purpose of discussing poetics--post someone else's poem. Charlie -- "Poetry is good for you and so is the blues." Charlie said that. www.poetrypoetry.com where you hear poems read by poets who wrote them www.myspace.com/whiskeybucketbluesreview hear Charlie & Henry sing the blues www.myspace.com/charlierossiter hear Charlie as solo performance poet www.myspace.com/avantretro (hear avantretro poems) www.myspace.com/jackthe71special hear Jack's original blues, blues rock & roots ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 06:53:53 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: DJ SPOOKY Subject: Lou Reed and Dj Spooky Concert at Town Hall NYC 3/1/07 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain Hello People: I'm just in the middle of finishing my first film Rebirth of a Nation but during the interim, there's a couple of concerts I'm doing in NYC. If you're around on March 1st (this Thursday), I'd like to extend an invitation to you to come out to the show I'm doing at Town Hall. It's a benefit for an interesting arts/experimental music venue called The Stone and the lineup for the concert will be: Dj Spooky Lou Reed John Zorn Lee Reynaldo of Sonic Youth Medeski Martin and Wood and others. If you're in town, please come out and support. Ticket info below: MARCH 1, 2007 AT TOWN HALL, NYC A benefit for The Stone (http://www.thestonenyc.com/) 8pm, tickets $52, $38, $25 Town Hall 123 West 43rd Street, New York, NY 10036 Tickets at Ticketmaster Click here on http://server1.streamsend.com/newstreamsend/unsubscribe.php?md=154&cd=725&ud=f16c7d0351a4dbece9ac75b29b7601d0 to update your profile or Unsubscribe ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 09:44:56 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: Poems: to post or not to post In-Reply-To: <20629.65.79.22.226.1172589863.squirrel@www.poetrypoetry.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit That's not far off from what all the announcements of publications, far-flung readings, etc. are saying. I've found I can delete poems I don't care to read just as quickly as I can delete announcements of poetry readings in, say, Fairbanks, Alaska. Hal "One barium enema is worth a year of psychoanalysis." --Dr. Robert Whitlock Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com halvard@earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Feb 27, 2007, at 9:24 AM, Charlie Rossiter wrote: > I think the folks did a good job in the recent go-round about haiku of > posting poems in the interest of a discussion of poetics. I think > what > many are saying, and I agree, is we don't want to getting posts of > poems > that are posted for no other reason that to say "here's my great > new poem, > please tell me I'm clever" or "notice me, notice me" etcetc... > > We could also say, if you want to post a poem for the purpose of > discussing poetics--post someone else's poem. > > Charlie > > > -- > "Poetry is good for you and so is the blues." > Charlie said that. > www.poetrypoetry.com > where you hear poems read by poets who wrote them > > www.myspace.com/whiskeybucketbluesreview > hear Charlie & Henry sing the blues > > www.myspace.com/charlierossiter > hear Charlie as solo performance poet > > www.myspace.com/avantretro (hear avantretro poems) > > www.myspace.com/jackthe71special > hear Jack's original blues, blues rock & roots ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 08:13:12 -0800 Reply-To: rsillima@yahoo.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Silliman's Blog: Bad Moon Rising Comments: To: Brit-po , New Po , UK Poetry , Ann White MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ RECENT POSTS In the past three weeks Leroy Jenkins Gene Frumkin Merilene Murphy Michael Benedikt and Emmett Williams have all died The device poems of Elaine Equi Reading and citing the New York Times Martin Scorsese’s The Departed is better than the film (Infernal Affairs) from which it was adapted Elaine Equi’s Ripple Effect Mongolian Ping Pong The Grand Piano, vol 2, is available (an experiment in collective autobiography) Highlights of Fascicle 3 We by Yevgeny Zemyatin (sci-fi before sci-fi existed) http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 11:15:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Zoe Ward Subject: Good drinks & small presses in ATL Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v624) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed All, If you're in Atlanta this week, stop by Manuel's Tavern on Friday night=20= to have a drink with the fine folks behind some great small presses,=20 including Archipelago, A Public Space (lit mag), Akashic, Graywolf,=20 Milkweed, Soft Skull, and Coffee House. Details below. Also, come say hi to me at the Archipelago/Two Lines table (#132) if=20 you have a chance! Manuel's Tavern, in the =93New Bar=94 Friday, March 2, 8-11 pm 602 North Highland Avenue, Atlanta Directions (from the Hilton): Turn Left on Piedmont Follow Piedmont to North Ave., turn right Follow this to North Highland Manuel?s Tavern is at the corner of North Ave. Hope to see you there! Zoe Ward Editor & Publicist Archipelago Books 25 Jay St. #203 Brooklyn NY 11201 T: 718.852.6134 F: 718.852.6135 Visit our new website! www.archipelagobooks.org= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 11:26:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: **Last Call: Advertise in Boog City 39** Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Please forward ----------------------- Advertise in Boog City 39 *Deadline --Wed. March 7-Ad copy to editor --Sat. March 10-Issue to be distributed Email to reserve ad space ASAP We have 2,250 copies distributed and available free throughout Manhattan's East Village, and Williamsburg and Greenpoint, Brooklyn. ----- Take advantage of our indie discount ad rate. We are once again offering a 50% discount on our 1/8-page ads, cutting them from $60 to $30. (The discount rate also applies to larger ads.) Advertise your small press's newest publications, your own titles or upcoming readings, or maybe salute an author you feel people should be reading, with a few suggested books to buy. And musical acts, advertise your new albums, indie labels your new releases. (We're also cool with donations, real cool.) Email editor@boogcity.com or call 212-842-BOOG(2664) for more information. thanks, David -- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 330 W.28th St., Suite 6H NY, NY 10001-4754 For event and publication information: http://boogcityevents.blogspot.com/ T: (212) 842-BOOG (2664) F: (212) 842-2429 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 09:43:19 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: charles alexander Subject: sorry. wrong email Comments: To: pogdir@yahoogroups.com, pog@yahoogroups.com, Paul Nelson Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Dear Friends: The email I sent earlier contained one mis-typed email address to which to send letters of support for the Steinfeld artists (& Chax Press) in Tucson. The city council member's address was written as but it should have been: very sorry for the confusion! Charles ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 09:45:47 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: charles alexander Subject: sorry. wrong email Comments: To: pogdir@yahoogroups.com, pog@yahoogroups.com, Paul Nelson Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed (yikes: still WRONG -- either not enough or too much coffee this morning! Please, Poetics List Moderators. If you catch this, send THIS email on to the list, and not the last one!)) Should be, and this is final: (I had it earlier as tucsonaz.goav) ______________ Dear Friends: The email I sent earlier contained one mis-typed email address to which to send letters of support for the Steinfeld artists (& Chax Press) in Tucson. The city council member's address was written as but it should have been: very sorry for the confusion! Charles ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 10:29:02 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: michael-chasar@UIOWA.EDU Subject: CFP: Poetry & Popular Culture (4/16/07; MMLA '07) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes"; format="flowed" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit CFP: 2007 Midwest Modern Language Association Convention Cleveland, Ohio, November 8-11, 2007 Poetry & Popular Culture For many people, the terms "popular" and "poetry" seem mutually exclusive and the term "popular poetry" oxymoronic - a non sequitur in which the commercial logic of the culture industries and the integrity of the lyric voice or aesthetic taste are impossibly paired. Yet the field of Cultural Studies now offers a set of rubrics by which we might talk productively about the intersection of poetry and popular culture. This panel seeks to showcase innovative scholarship at that intersection and thus invites papers reading and recovering the history of popular poetry, examining its creation and consumption, and exploring its various manifestations from periodical to pin-up, radio to rock and roll, and advertisement to autograph book. Send 300 word abstracts by April 16 to michael-chasar@uiowa.edu. http://www.uiowa.edu/~mmla/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 11:33:06 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: Poems: to post or not to post In-Reply-To: <2D296ADF-48DD-4EA6-B972-5C340E826D2D@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm finding I can also delete all the messages from UB Poetics re messages to be posted. Lots more of them nowadays. I'm wishing they'd include a poem with each of those I get. Hal Today's Special Theory of Harmony http://www.xpressed.org/fall04/theory1.pdf Halvard Johnson ================ halvard@gmail.com halvard@earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Feb 27, 2007, at 9:44 AM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > That's not far off from what all the announcements of > publications, far-flung readings, etc. are saying. > > I've found I can delete poems I don't care to read just > as quickly as I can delete announcements of poetry > readings in, say, Fairbanks, Alaska. > > Hal > > "One barium enema is worth a year > of psychoanalysis." > --Dr. Robert Whitlock > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard@gmail.com > halvard@earthlink.net > http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > On Feb 27, 2007, at 9:24 AM, Charlie Rossiter wrote: > >> I think the folks did a good job in the recent go-round about >> haiku of >> posting poems in the interest of a discussion of poetics. I think >> what >> many are saying, and I agree, is we don't want to getting posts of >> poems >> that are posted for no other reason that to say "here's my great >> new poem, >> please tell me I'm clever" or "notice me, notice me" etcetc... >> >> We could also say, if you want to post a poem for the purpose of >> discussing poetics--post someone else's poem. >> >> Charlie >> >> >> -- >> "Poetry is good for you and so is the blues." >> Charlie said that. >> www.poetrypoetry.com >> where you hear poems read by poets who wrote them >> >> www.myspace.com/whiskeybucketbluesreview >> hear Charlie & Henry sing the blues >> >> www.myspace.com/charlierossiter >> hear Charlie as solo performance poet >> >> www.myspace.com/avantretro (hear avantretro poems) >> >> www.myspace.com/jackthe71special >> hear Jack's original blues, blues rock & roots ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 09:36:49 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Adam Fieled Subject: Jordan Stempleman on PFS Post MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Check out four dynamite poems from Iowa's Otoliths & moria veteran Jordan Stempleman: http://www.artrecess.blogspot.com "I'm always crashing in the same car" http://www.adamfieled.blogspot.com --------------------------------- The fish are biting. Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 11:41:44 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Hooper Subject: Re: Amy Re: You must reply to this with a poem - creative? In-Reply-To: <186490.1564.qm@web54615.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Alexander - If the list is an open mic if it's populated with poetry, then it's just a bulletin without it. I see more self promotions, general announcements, and death notices than I do thoughtful "poetics" discussions. I think actual poetry is more interesting than discussions of poetry. I have low expectations regarding this list so I'm not disappointed with it's current state. Tony On 2/26/07, Alexander Jorgensen wrote: > > Amy's kinda right about this, I think. I mean, with > all the info we have access to online, why pollute > this list with more than it can digest. This is a > space cafe - not a poetry reading with loads of open > mic. If anything, we should learn better at better > bickering! We should attack the establishment -- or, > join aol. > > agj > > --- amy king wrote: > > > Tom is right -- the Welcome message states, "We do > > not accept postings of creative work not directed > > toward a discussion of poetics issues on the list. > > The Poetics List is not a venue for the posting of > > free-standing, personal poems or journal entries." > > > > And earlier, "The Poetics List is not a forum for > > a general discussion of poetry or for the exchange > > of poems. Our aim is to support, inform, and extend > > those directions in poetry that are committed to > > innovations, renovations, and investigations of form > > and/or/as content, to the questioning of received > > forms and styles, and to the creation of the > > otherwise unimagined, untried, unexpected, > > improbable, and impossible." > > > > > > Should posts written in poetic form/at (broken > > lines? rhymed? omitting all e's, employing recurring > > words? etc) that address poetics issues be > > encouraged? > > > > Incidentally, the daily message max for the list > > is 75 messages per day, with a limit of four posts > > per person. > > > > > > > > Thomas savage wrote: > > Sorry this is not a poem. But, as I understand it, > > we aren't supposed to post poems on this site, just > > discussions and announcements relevant to poetry. > > There is another excellent site called Wryting-L > > where poets from this list and, I suspect, from > > other sources post poems. It is set up specifically > > with that intent. If you're interested in doing > > that, Google Wryting-L and it should give you the > > relevant information. Regards, Tom Savage > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. > > Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. > > > > > --- > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Want to start your own business? > Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 09:49:07 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Resent-From: Bill Berkson Comments: Originally-From: Bill Berkson From: Bill Berkson Subject: Bill Berkson Reading Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Bill Berkson reading from Our Friends Will Pass Among You Silently new poems 2001-2006 The Owl Press, 2007 & What's Your Idea of a Good Time?: Letters & Interviews 1977-1985 with Bernadette Mayer Tuumba Press, 2006 & celebrating Sudden Address: Selected Lectures 1981-2006 Cuneiform Press, 2007 Thursday, March 15, 6 p.m. Kelly Writers House 3805 Locust Walk Philadelphia, PA * Saturday, March 17th, 4pm - 6pm Clayton Fine Books 317 N.Charles Street Baltimore, MD [410-752-6800] * Sunday, March 18, 3 p.m. In Your Ear DC Arts Center 2438 18th Street in Adams Morgan Washington DC admission $3, free for members ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 09:52:55 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jason Quackenbush Subject: Re: Russell Edson - what school is he? In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20070226223536.05b8ade8@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed I don't think you're wrong, but i think sometimes even an arbitrary grouping is a useful one. For me, as an autodidact born in the late seventies and growing up in the stagnant nineties about as far from the little magazines of the sixties and seventies as you can get, things like Hoover's introduction to the norton postmodern have been very useful at trying to get a structure around which to further my investigations of the poetry of the couple of generations immediately preceding mine which are currently just beginning the process of canonization. Being able to read ashbery and o'hara as somehow related to eachother and also to poets like padgett and berrigan, and as somehow having some distance from creeley or olson while at the same time all of them being somehow connected in a broader field that was itself some distance from poets like plath or collins or maya angelou who are the sorts of people you associate with american poetry if you walk blindly into a bookstore to look at poets and not knowing anything else. which is to say, so long as such groupings and schoolings serve a pedagogical purpose and are seen as porous and not absolute, i think they have a place at the table. On Mon, 26 Feb 2007, Mark Weiss wrote: > I could be wrong, but it sounds like a hail mary play to me. I know all of the > principals, including Edson, who read for me several times in the 70s and > appeared in my journal Broadway Boogie. As far as I know he didn't hang out > with Jerry or Diane or for that matter Kelly or Eshleman, and his work and > theirs are very different. And Deep Image lasted as a self-designation for the > blink of an eye. > > Not that it matters much. They're all sui generis. And the toxonomies are of > limited use. I'll go with "call me what you want except late for dinner." > > Mark > > At 08:36 PM 2/26/2007, you wrote: >> Hoover classified him with Rothenberg, Wakoski, and some others as part of >> the "Deep Image" school in the norton postmodern american. >> >> >> On Mon, 26 Feb 2007, Aaron Belz wrote: >> >>> Hey Poetics - >>> >>> If you had to make a case that Russell Edson belongs to a particular >>> school >>> of American poetry, which one would it be? Language? NY School? My hunch >>> is >>> neither of those, so what do we call Edson's 'school'? >>> >>> Just wondering, >>> >>> Aaron > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 12:36:17 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Trigilio Subject: Court Green #5 / Call for Submissions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit COURT GREEN #5 / Spring 2008 http://english.colum.edu/courtgreen Call for Submissions Dossier: Sylvia Plath Each issue of COURT GREEN features a dossier on a special topic or theme. For our fifth issue, we are seeking creative responses to the work, life, and legacy of Sylvia Plath. It has been over forty years since Plath committed suicide. In the decades since, her influence has proven to be great and lasting. For this dossier, we would like to see fresh takes on and responses to Plath’s life and work, however subtle or overt, in poetry and short lyric essays or prose. All styles are welcome. We are not looking for critical/academic works at this time. Submissions for dossier and regular sections of the magazine are welcome. If you would like to submit poems for either or both sections, our submission period is March 1-June 30 of each year. Please send no more than five pages of poetry. We will respond by August 31. Submit to: Editors, COURT GREEN English Department Columbia College Chicago 600 South Michigan Avenue Chicago, IL 60605 Email submissions are not accepted. Submissions without a self-addressed, stamped envelope will not be returned. SASEs with insufficient postage will contain notification only. Poems submitted outside our reading period will be returned unread. Email me if you have questions: tony@starve.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 11:06:00 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lewis LaCook Subject: I saw a burning car on 28th Street - Xanax Pop, by Lewis LaCook Comments: To: rhizome , netbehaviour , webartery MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit These details and their temporal degradation spit stillness and reciprocal snow At night, carillons scream like gulls streaming through sexually-bruised skies and lighting on the relief of faces You smile as if this were understanding The fire department, slow to respond, hungry slide as if on strings down the street and reach a conflagration. Somehow we're holding hands, maybe to ward off the vicious pink of the clouds Anyway, we're in love, adjacent and content as per this series of treaties Lewis LaCook Director of Web Development Abstract Outlooks Media 440-989-6481 http://www.abstractoutlooks.com Abstract Outlooks Media - Premium Web Hosting, Development, and Art Photography http://www.lewislacook.org lewislacook.org - New Media Poetry and Poetics http://www.xanaxpop.org Xanax Pop - the Poetry of Lewis LaCook --------------------------------- Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 14:26:24 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: Re: wood's lot today: 3 Otoliths poets: CRONIN, STAMMER, CHIROT In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >From: "Otoliths Editor" >To: "Mark Young" >Subject: wood's lot >Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 20:28:52 +1000 > >Dear David, Margie, harry > >Thought you might be interested in today's postings as Wood's Lot. > >http://web.ncf.ca/ek867/2007_02_16-28_archives.html#02.27.2007 > >Cheers >Mark _________________________________________________________________ The average US Credit Score is 675. The cost to see yours: $0 by Experian. http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=660600&bcd=EMAILFOOTERAVERAGE ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 14:29:47 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David-Baptiste Chirot Subject: FW: Guardian Unlimited Books: 'Inside the wire' Poets of Gitmo Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed > >David Chirot spotted this on the Guardian Unlimited Books site and thought >you should see it. > >To see this story with its related links on the Guardian Unlimited Books >site, go to http://books.guardian.co.uk > >'Inside the wire' >The pressures of confinement in Guantánamo Bay have led many in the >controversial detention camp to turn to poetry. But, as Richard Lea learns, >the American authorities are very reluctant to let the world see them >Monday February 26 2007 >The Guardian > > >Poetry's capacity to rattle governments is not, it appears, confined to >totalitarian regimes. A collection of poems by detainees at the US military >base in Guantánamo Bay is to be published later this year, but only in the >face of strong opposition by suspicious American censors. > >Twenty-one poems written "inside the wire" in Arabic, Pashto and English >have been gathered together despite formidable obstacles by Marc Falkoff, a >law professor at Northern Illinois University who represents 17 of the >detainees at the camp. The collection, entitled Poems from Guantánamo: The >Detainees Speak, will be published in August by the University of Iowa >Press with an afterword written by Ariel Dorfman. > >It all began when he turned up at the secure facility in Washington DC >where all communications from detainees are sent, and found a poem waiting >for him. > >"The first poem I saw was sent to me by Abdulsalam al Hela," he says. "It's >a moving cry about the injustice of arbitrary detention and at the same >time a hymn to the comforts of religious faith." > >"It was interesting to me because I did a PhD in literature, but I didn't >think too much about it." > >A second poem from another client followed soon after, and Falkoff began to >wonder if other lawyers also had clients who were sending poetry. It turned >out that Guantánamo Bay is "filled with itinerant poets". > >Many of the poems deal with the pain and humiliation inflicted on the >detainees by the US military. Others express disbelief and a sense of >betrayal that Americans - described in one poem as "protectors of peace" - >could deny detainees any kind of justice. Some engage with wider themes of >nostalgia, hope and faith in God. > >But most of the poems, including the lament by Al Hela which first sparked >Falkoff's interest, are unlikely to ever see the light of day. Not content >with imprisoning the authors, the Pentagon has refused to declassify many >of their words, arguing that poetry "presents a special risk" to national >security because of its "content and format". In a memo sent on September >18 2006, the team assigned to deal with communications between lawyers and >their clients explains that they do not "maintain the requisite subject >matter expertise" and says that poems "should continue to be considered >presumptively classified". > >The defence department spokesman Jeffrey Gordon is unsurprised that access >to detainees poetry is tightly controlled. "It depends on what's being >written," he says. "There's a whole range of things that are >inappropriate." Of course poetry that deals with subjects such as guard >routines, interrogation techniques or terrorist operations could pose a >security threat, but Gordon is unable to explain why Al Hela's poem is >still classified, saying "I haven't read any of these [poems]". > >As with prisoners within the American justice system, he argues, there are >constraints on their first amendment rights. "I don't think these guys are >writing poetry like Morrissey," he continues. > >"The fear appears to be that detainees will try to smuggle coded messages >out of the camp," explains Falkoff, a fear that has often allowed clearance >for English translations only - Arabic or Pashto originals being judged to >represent an "enhanced security risk". In many cases even Falkoff has only >seen the translations prepared for the volunteer lawyers by the few >translators with the requisite security clearance. > >Because of security restrictions, Falkoff cannot give any further details >about Al Hela's poem, or about other poems sent to him by his clients that >have not been cleared for publication by the department of defence. He is >not allowed to see about 20 poems sent to other lawyers that have not been >cleared for publication. > >Many poems have also been lost, confiscated or destroyed. Falkoff is unable >to even offer an estimate of how many poems have been written in the camp. > >"To start with," he says, "there are probably 200 detainees who either >don't have lawyers or have not been allowed to communicate with their >lawyers. Even for those clients who have lawyers, I really don't know how >many poems they've written or whether they've been confiscated. >Communicating back and forth with our clients is a very, very difficult >process." > >Only one of the authors in the forthcoming collection wrote poetry before >his incarceration. The religious scholar Abdul Rahim Muslim Dost wrote >25,000 lines of poetry during his time in the camp, only a handful of which >have been returned to him. A poem he wrote on a Styrofoam cup and >reconstructed from memory after his release appears in Poems from >Guantánamo. The other detainees were not poets before their incarceration, >but have turned to poetry under the particular pressures of their >situation. > >Moazzam Begg, who spent three years in Guantánamo Bay before being released >without charge in January 2005, began writing poetry as a way of explaining >what he was going through. He knew that everything he wrote would be >censored, so used poetry to try to describe his situation to his family. > >"The idea was to say it without saying it," he says, "and to explain to my >interrogators that it was a farce." > >The formal constraints of poetry gives the writer control over their >material, he says, "the ability to say the words without going into a >rant". > >Poetry was also a way of engaging with the system. > >"I knew that everything I wrote would be censored," he continues, "and that >the person censoring it would have to read the poem." By writing in >English, a language rarely used by detainees in the camp, he was able to >communicate directly with guards, and perhaps those higher up in the US >military. > >It was also a way of "showing anger" and "channelling frustration". > >According to Falkoff, detainees are writing poetry because "they're trying >to keep hold of their sanity and humanity". > >"They have really, really nothing to do there," he says. "They get, now, an >hour of exercise every other day or so. They don't have access to books, >apart from a Qu'ran - which they get whether they want it or not - and a >little book cart with some Agatha Christie novels and some Harry Potter. >They're not allowed to interact with the other prisoners. There are no >communal areas. The recreation area is like a chimney with 30ft high >walls." > >"They're writing poetry because they need some kind of mental stimulation, >some way of expressing their feelings, some outlet for their creativity." > >According to the poet Jack Mapanje, who was imprisoned in Malawi because of >his writing and now teaches a course on the poetry of incarceration at >Newcastle University, prisoners often turn to writing poetry as a way of >"defending themselves". > >"People are writing as a search for the dignity that has been taken away >from them," he says. "It's the only way they can attempt to restore it, but >nobody is listening to them." He was imprisoned himself with many people >who were illiterate, he says, but many of them were writing poetry, or >singing songs about their captivity - "it's the same impulse that drives >people to prayer." > >"Poetry talks to the heart," he continues, "there is something immediately >passionate about it." For Mapanje, poetry is a more "natural" means of >expression than prose, a means of communication that "anybody who hasn't >got any craft will come to". > >The poet Tim Liardet, whose Forward prize-shortlisted collection Blood >Choir deals with the time he spent teaching poetry at a young offenders' >prison, agrees there's an "instinctual" urge to reach for poetry in extreme >circumstances. > >"They're feeling things they've never felt before, or never with so much >intensity," he says. "They've never had to try to match such an intense >experience with language before." > >Many of the offenders he worked with resisted his efforts to get them to >write poetry, he continues, but "the ones who ended up writing it were the >ones who found it themselves. They weren't following an example from me." > >Falkoff is hoping the collection of poems from Guantánamo Bay will put a >human face on people branded by the former American defence secretary >Donald Rumsfeld as "among the most dangerous, best-trained, vicious killers >on the face of the Earth". > >The quality of the poems in the collection is "variable", says Falkoff, but >"there's some really good stuff there". He stresses that because of >security restrictions he has often been unable to see anything more than >translations prepared without "poetry in mind". Nevertheless some of the >poems transcend their extraordinary circumstances, he says, and "just knock >me over". > >With the courts moving slowly towards fair and open hearings, he continues, >"the detainees' own words may become part of the dialogue. Perhaps their >poems will prick the conscience of a nation." > > > >Copyright Guardian News and Media Limited > _________________________________________________________________ With tax season right around the corner, make sure to follow these few simple tips. http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Taxes/PreparationTips/PreparationTips.aspx?icid=HMFebtagline ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 21:16:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Dr. Barry S. Alpert" Subject: Re: Russell Edson - what school is he? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed No one has mentioned the school he attended, Black Mountain College. Barry Alpert _________________________________________________________________ The average US Credit Score is 675. The cost to see yours: $0 by Experian. http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=660600&bcd=EMAILFOOTERAVERAGE ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 16:20:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lcabri@UWINDSOR.CA Subject: Fred Wah leads second poetry discussion in new series MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable i want the world absolute & present all its elements=20 ?bpNichol quotation chosen by Fred Wah for his discussion event Vancouver poet and critic FRED WAH will lead a unique informal poetry=20 discussion?open to all?at Pause Cafe (74 Chatham W, Windsor, Ontario) on=20 Tuesday 13 March at 7:30PM, no cover. To peek at where discussion might go, feel free to range through=20 quotations and poems the poet has already selected for his event and that=20 are available via UWindsor's English Department News & Events,=20 http://web4.uwindsor.ca/english. Poetry prismatically refracts social, political, scientific, aesthetic=20 languages, transforming them into something exciting and strange. How does = poetic form do that when it's not really prismatic? Wah?s event is part of = a new poetry discussion series exploring questions like this one about the = language of poetry. The series aims to offer an experience of the shapes=20 and sounds of contemporary poetry by inviting leading and emerging=20 innovative practitioners of the art to the Windsor community minutes from=20 downtown Detroit.=20 Wah will also give a poetry reading in Katzman Lounge, Vanier Hall,=20 University of Windsor, on Monday 12 March at 4:30PM. All welcome.=20 Refreshments provided. Fred Wah was born of Chinese- and Scandinavian-origin parents in Swift=20 Current, and in 1961, co-founded the important poetry newsletter, TISH. He = was one of the founders of the formative writing group, the Kootenay=20 School of Writing. Wah has published 17 books of poetry?including the=20 Governor-General Award-winning Waiting for Saskatchewan (Turnstone, 1985)=20 and his novel, Diamond Grill (NeWest, 1996), which NeWest Publishers has=20 just re-issued in a 10th-anniversary edition. FRED WAH?s first-time Windsor visit: (1) Public Reading 4:30PM Mon 12 Mar Katzman Lounge, Vanier Hall, University of Windsor All welcome, no cover, refreshments provided=20 (2) Poetry Discussion 7:30PM Tue 13 Mar=20 Pause Cafe (74 Chatham W) All welcome, no cover For a sampling of texts selected by Wah, click on News & Events at=20 http://web4.uwindsor.ca/english. Wah?s events in Windsor are sponsored by The Canada Council, Rampike=20 magazine, Pause Cafe, and the University of Windsor?s Department of=20 English Language, Literature & Creative Writing.=20 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 20:37:01 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: aaron tieger Subject: CARVE 8 now available MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Finally, I am pleased to announce the for-real publication of CARVE 8. Featuring poems by Erica Kaufman (Brooklyn, NY), Lars Palm (Lund, Sweden), Ryan Murphy (New York, NY), Amy Whitney (Ithaca, NY), Arielle Guy (Brooklyn, NY), and Joseph Massey (Arcata, CA), this issue is sure to please! CARVE 8 can be purchaed via paypal at either aarontieger.blogspot.com or carvepoems.org. Or, if you prefer, you can send a check (made payable to AARON TIEGER) or cleverly concealed cash to 1964 Slaterville Rd., Ithaca NY 14850. Please order your copy today. Support small presses and the poets who publish in them! Thank you. Aaron Tieger Editor, CARVE aarontieger.blogspot.com carvepoems.org soonproductions.org "Make a sudden, destructive unpredictable action; incorporate." (Brian Eno) ____________________________________________________________________________________ Have a burning question? Go to www.Answers.yahoo.com and get answers from real people who know. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 00:26:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: clifford Subject: laundrypoettry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Well laundrymats and "washing" hands etc. are interesting tropes, right? like dig them two washerwomen in finnegans wake yapping away on tHe metaphorical banks of the liffey. a couple years back i and 3 friends did a recording of select passageS of Fwake the laundryladies gossipaceously chattering and we did a few quick loops and popped a tape in the soUnd system at the local "buanderie" and lo, it was hardly noticed. but then again who hears or reads finnegans walke? it was fun. i figure no matter how ya cut the finnegans wake had to be written so irish ears can hear it. no matter how innovative or not the building they inhabit. or how forlorn. So it goes, eh? as old man Kurt Vonnegut , has it. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 02:54:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: CA Conrad Subject: FRANK SHERLOCK EMERGENCY FUND benefit show 3/18 in Philadelphia = = = = = = = MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline FRANK SHERLOCK EMERGENCY FUND benefit show 3/18 in Philadelphia = = = = = = = (for full schedule, including links, go to: http://PhillySound.blogspot.com ) March 18th,2007 at FERGIE'S PUB (1214 Sansom St) 4pm to 7pm on the 2nd floor $20 suggested donation (BUT PLEASE GIVE WHAT YOU CAN!) HOSTED BY Jenn McCreary BANDS, POETS & FILMMAKERS INCLUDE: Goodbye Better, Don Riggs, Christina Strong, Jessica White, Chris McCreary, I Feel Tractory, Dorthea Lasky, Ish Klein, CAConrad ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 14:39:59 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Marcacci Subject: THE COUNTDOWN Episode 20 Featuring ARLENE ANG Comments: To: Bob Marcacci Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Link over to , choose the show you want by clicking on the headphones icon in the menu, and just listen. It's that easy! THE COUNTDOWN Episode 20 highlights the poetry of Arlene Ang, and also stars these poets and bloggers: Ann Bogle, Rachel Dacus, Crag Hill, Christine Klocek-Lim, Rick Mullin, Shelia E. Murphy, Maurice Oliver, Pearl Pirie, William Rike & Jordan Stempleman. Always looking for a good blog to slog through. Comments and conversay appreciated, front or backchannel. Thanks for tuning in to MiPoRadio where poetry tunes in, and special thanks to all the fine poets who recorded work for this one! -- Bob Marcacci If the brain were so simple we could understand it, we would be so simple we couldn't. -Lyall Watson ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 07:28:35 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas savage Subject: Re: Amy Re: You must reply to this with a poem - creative? In-Reply-To: <505ce3300702270941j1c9147b2m4a724a7f571bb6d6@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I, too, have noticed that many of the discussions/posts have either nothing to do with poetry/poetics or are only peripherally concerned with poetics issues. I usually can tell which these posts are from the subject line and mostly don't read them. Are there other subscribers to the list who do the same? Regards, Tom Savage Tony Hooper wrote: Alexander - If the list is an open mic if it's populated with poetry, then it's just a bulletin without it. I see more self promotions, general announcements, and death notices than I do thoughtful "poetics" discussions. I think actual poetry is more interesting than discussions of poetry. I have low expectations regarding this list so I'm not disappointed with it's current state. Tony On 2/26/07, Alexander Jorgensen wrote: > > Amy's kinda right about this, I think. I mean, with > all the info we have access to online, why pollute > this list with more than it can digest. This is a > space cafe - not a poetry reading with loads of open > mic. If anything, we should learn better at better > bickering! We should attack the establishment -- or, > join aol. > > agj > > --- amy king wrote: > > > Tom is right -- the Welcome message states, "We do > > not accept postings of creative work not directed > > toward a discussion of poetics issues on the list. > > The Poetics List is not a venue for the posting of > > free-standing, personal poems or journal entries." > > > > And earlier, "The Poetics List is not a forum for > > a general discussion of poetry or for the exchange > > of poems. Our aim is to support, inform, and extend > > those directions in poetry that are committed to > > innovations, renovations, and investigations of form > > and/or/as content, to the questioning of received > > forms and styles, and to the creation of the > > otherwise unimagined, untried, unexpected, > > improbable, and impossible." > > > > > > Should posts written in poetic form/at (broken > > lines? rhymed? omitting all e's, employing recurring > > words? etc) that address poetics issues be > > encouraged? > > > > Incidentally, the daily message max for the list > > is 75 messages per day, with a limit of four posts > > per person. > > > > > > > > Thomas savage wrote: > > Sorry this is not a poem. But, as I understand it, > > we aren't supposed to post poems on this site, just > > discussions and announcements relevant to poetry. > > There is another excellent site called Wryting-L > > where poets from this list and, I suspect, from > > other sources post poems. It is set up specifically > > with that intent. If you're interested in doing > > that, Google Wryting-L and it should give you the > > relevant information. Regards, Tom Savage > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. > > Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. > > > > > --- > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Want to start your own business? > Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index > --------------------------------- Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 07:21:25 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Shad Marsh Subject: Re: Russell Edson - what school is he? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I don't think I would attach any one "school" to him, He is in many ways singular, butif you need one, he can be counted among the "American Surrealists" or "school of the absurd prose poem" or... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097